How to achieve hypergrowth in your business and career | Carilu Dietrich (Atlassian)
Carilu Dietrich: In order to get hypergrowth, you have to have organic, inbound, and viral word of mouth.
Carilu Dietrich：为了获得高速增长，你必须拥有有机的、入站的和病毒式的口碑。
You can't pay enough to grow at those rates and have a viable company.
你无法支付足够的费用来以这样的速度发展并拥有一家有生存能力的公司。
The biggest thing is an amazing product that people love to use, right?
最重要的是人们喜欢使用一个令人惊叹的产品，对吧？
I mean ChatGPT is the most hypergrowth product that we've seen in history potentially, because people are so excited to use it and it's working in interesting ways.
我的意思是，ChatGPT 可能是我们历史上见过的最高速增长的产品，因为人们非常兴奋地使用它，而且它以有趣的方式工作。
Carilu Dietrich: And then I think the third thing is really riding the lightning, I would call it.
Carilu Dietrich：然后我认为第三件事是真正的驾驭闪电，我称之为。
Hypergrowth companies go through the stages of growth that would take other companies five years or 10 years, right?
高速增长的公司会经历其他公司需要五年或十年的增长阶段，对吗？
They're going from 10 to 50, they're going from 50 to 100, they're going from 100 to 200.
他们将从 10 人增加到 50 人，从 50 人增加到 100 人，从 100 人增加到 200 人。
They're jumping.
他们在跳。
And so they really need to keep hiring 2X and 3X leaders who have seen the next stage of growth, because it's going to be here before you know it.
因此，他们确实需要继续雇用已经看到下一阶段增长的 2 倍和 3 倍领导者，因为它会在你意识到之前就出现。
Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast, where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard work, experiences building and growing today's most successful products.
Lenny：欢迎来到 Lenny 的播客，在这里我采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，从他们的辛勤工作以及构建和发展当今最成功产品的经验中学习。
Lenny: Today my guest is Carilu Dietrich.
莱尼：今天我的客人是卡里卢·迪特里希。
Carilu is a former CMO and has advised the CEOs and CMOs of hypergrowth B2B companies like Segment, Miro, 1Password, Bill.com, Productboard, Sprout Social, Weights & Biases, and most notably was head of marketing at Atlassian through their IPO.
Carilu 是前首席营销官，曾为 Segment、Miro、1Password、Bill.com、Productboard、Sprout Social、Weights & Biases 等高速增长的 B2B 公司的首席执行官和首席营销官提供咨询，最引人注目的是在 Atlassian 的 IPO 期间担任营销主管。
Lenny: In today's episode, we cover what hypergrowth companies have in common, how to make big changes to your growth strategy to unlock new channels of growth, why COs don't trust CMOs, and why most CMOs get fired.
Lenny：在今天的节目中，我们将介绍高速增长公司的共同点、如何对增长战略做出重大改变以开启新的增长渠道、为什么 CO 不信任 CMO，以及为什么大多数 CMO 会被解雇。
Also, why most CPOs get fired.
另外，为什么大多数 CPO 会被解雇。
Plus, the benefits of waiting a long time to hire your first salesperson, bundling strategy, and a ton of incredibly insightful career advice.
另外，等待很长时间才能雇用第一位销售人员的好处、捆绑策略以及大量令人难以置信的有洞察力的职业建议。
A huge thank you to Elena Verna for suggesting Carilu for the podcast.
非常感谢 Elena Verna 推荐 Carilu 来播客。
And with that, I bring you Carilu Dietrich after a short word from our sponsors.
在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了卡里卢·迪特里希 (Carilu Dietrich)。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Rows.com.
莱尼：本集由 Rows.com 为您带来。
The world runs on spreadsheets.
世界靠电子表格运转。
You probably have a tab open with a spreadsheet right now, but the spreadsheet product you're using today was designed decades ago, and it shows.
您现在可能打开了一个包含电子表格的选项卡，但您今天使用的电子表格产品是几十年前设计的，并且它显示了这一点。
They live in silos away from your business data.
它们位于远离您的业务数据的孤岛中。
They weren't made to be used on a phone.
它们不是为在手机上使用而设计的。
And if you want to do even the simplest automation, you have to figure out complex scripts that are nightmare to maintain.
如果您想做最简单的自动化，您就必须找出维护起来非常困难的复杂脚本。
Lenny: Rows is different.
莱尼：行是不同的。
It combines a modern spreadsheet editor, data integrations with APIs and your business tools, and a slick sharing experience that turns any spreadsheet into a beautiful interactive website that you'll be proud to share.
它结合了现代电子表格编辑器、与 API 和业务工具的数据集成，以及流畅的共享体验，可将任何电子表格变成美丽的交互式网站，您将自豪地分享。
If you're writing a report on a growth experiment, you can use Rows to your analysis on data straight from BigQuery or Snowflake.
如果您正在编写有关增长实验的报告，则可以使用 Rows 直接对来自 BigQuery 或 Snowflake 的数据进行分析。
If you're deep diving on marketing, you can import reports straight from Google Analytics, Facebook Ads, or Twitter.
如果您深入研究营销，可以直接从 Google Analytics、Facebook 广告或 Twitter 导入报告。
Or if you're working with sales, you can natively plug Stripe, Salesforce, or HubSpot directly into rows.
或者，如果您正在与销售人员合作，您可以直接将 Stripe、Salesforce 或 HubSpot 直接插入行中。
And when you're done, you can share your work as a beautiful spreadsheet that's easy to read, and embed charts, tables, and calculators into Notion, Confluence, or anywhere on the web.
完成后，您可以将您的工作作为易于阅读的精美电子表格进行共享，并将图表、表格和计算器嵌入到 Notion、Confluence 或网络上的任何位置。
I've already moved some of my favorite spreadsheet templates to Rows.
我已经将一些我最喜欢的电子表格模板移至 Rows。
Go to rows.com/lenny to check them out.
请访问 rows.com/lenny 查看它们。
That's rows.com/lenny.
这是 rows.com/lenny。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Braintrust, where the world's most innovative companies go to find talent fast so that they can innovate faster.
莱尼：这一集是由 Braintrust 为您带来的，世界上最具创新力的公司都在其中快速寻找人才，以便更快地创新。
Let's be honest, it's a lot of work to build a company.
说实话，建立一家公司需要做很多工作。
And if you want to stay ahead of the game, you need to be able to hire the right talent quickly and confidently.
如果您想在竞争中保持领先地位，您需要能够快速、自信地聘用合适的人才。
Braintrust is the first decentralized talent network where you can find, hire, and manage high quality contractors in engineering, design, and product, for a fraction of the cost of agencies.
Braintrust 是第一个去中心化的人才网络，您可以在其中寻找、雇用和管理工程、设计和产品方面的高质量承包商，而成本只是代理机构的一小部分。
Lenny: Brain Trust charges a flat rate of only 10%, unlike agency fees of up to 70%.
Lenny：Brain Trust 只收取 10% 的统一费率，与高达 70% 的代理费不同。
So you can make your budget go four times further.
这样您的预算就可以增加四倍。
Plus, they're the only network that takes 0% of what the talent makes, so they're able to attract and retain the world's best tech talent.
此外，他们是唯一一个收取 0% 人才收入的网络，因此他们能够吸引并留住世界上最优秀的技术人才。
Take it from DoorDash, Airbnb, Plaid, and hundreds of other high growth startups that have shaved their hiring process for months to weeks at less than a quarter of the cost by hiring through Braintrust's network of 20,000 high quality vetted candidates ready to work.
以 DoorDash、Airbnb、Plaid 和其他数百家高增长初创公司为例，通过 Braintrust 的 20,000 名经过审查的高素质候选人网络进行招聘，这些公司将招聘流程缩短了数月至数周，成本不到四分之一。
Whether you're looking to fill in gaps, upskill your staff, or build a team for that dream project that finally got funded, contact Braintrust and you'll get matched with three candidates in just 48 hours.
无论您是想填补空缺、提高员工技能，还是为最终获得资助的梦想项目组建团队，请联系 Braintrust，您将在短短 48 小时内找到三位候选人。
Visit usebraintrust.com/lenny or find them in my show notes for today's episode.
请访问 usebraintrust.com/lenny 或在我今天这一集的节目笔记中找到它们。
That's used usebraintrust.com/lenny, for when you need talent yesterday.
这是在您昨天需要人才时使用的 usebraintrust.com/lenny。
Lenny: Carilu, welcome to the podcast.
莱尼：卡里鲁，欢迎来到播客。
Carilu Dietrich: Thanks, Lenny.
卡里卢·迪特里希：谢谢，莱尼。
Happy to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
Lenny: You've had this incredible career.
莱尼：你的职业生涯令人难以置信。
You worked at all these incredible companies.
你曾在所有这些令人难以置信的公司工作过。
I'd love to just dissect what you have found to be most important and effective in building a career long term, just broadly.
我很乐意剖析一下您发现的对于建立长期职业生涯最重要和最有效的因素。
And then specifically if you're trying to get to an executive role someday, what have you found to be some more important habits, behaviors, tactics, lessons?
然后，具体来说，如果您有一天想担任高管职位，您发现哪些更重要的习惯、行为、策略和教训？
Carilu Dietrich: I'll start by saying that everyone has their own calculus about the trade-offs they want to make on pursuing their career and the sacrifices they might need to make versus the other things in their life, their family, their hobbies, their passions.
Carilu Dietrich：我首先要说的是，每个人都有自己的计算，关于他们在追求自己的职业生涯时想要做出的权衡，以及他们可能需要做出的牺牲与生活中的其他事情、他们的家庭、他们的爱好、他们的激情。
And so I think the executive track isn't for everyone because there are a lot of trade-offs.
所以我认为高管轨道并不适合所有人，因为有很多权衡。
Carilu Dietrich: Because I think that some of the most important aspects of getting to the executive suite are working harder, learning more, pushing yourself, taking on more responsibilities and opportunities, maybe even in the white space, that aren't your job or aren't in your regular time.
Carilu Dietrich：因为我认为进入高管层最重要的一些方面是更加努力地工作、学习更多、鞭策自己、承担更多的责任和机会，甚至可能是在空白的地方，这不是你的工作或不在你的正常时间里。
Carilu Dietrich: When I was young in my career, I decided I wanted to be a CMO.
Carilu Dietrich：当我职业生涯还年轻的时候，我就决定要成为一名 CMO。
And at the job where I had decided I wanted to be the CMO, I worked two hours later than everyone else on the team.
在我决定担任首席营销官的工作中，我比团队中的其他人晚了两个小时。
And I had this thought in my brain that two hours every day for five years would get me how many more years of experience than someone else?
我脑子里有这样的想法，每天两个小时，持续五年，我会比其他人多获得多少年的经验？
And I could do that when I was young, and I didn't have kids, and I was willing to make those sacrifices.
当我年轻的时候我就可以做到这一点，而且我没有孩子，我愿意做出这些牺牲。
Carilu Dietrich: But you look at a lot of the top CMOs and they have sacrificed a lot of things to read all of the books.
Carilu Dietrich：但是你看看很多顶级首席营销官，他们牺牲了很多东西来阅读所有书籍。
And again, if I go back to that first job, I was a PR manager, and we went through a tough phase and we lost a ahead of product right before the major launch of a major product.
再说一次，如果我回到第一份工作，我是一名公关经理，我们经历了一个艰难的阶段，在主要产品的主要发布之前我们失去了领先的产品。
So I volunteered to moonlight in the product department and run the beta, and do release engineering.
因此，我自愿在产品部门兼职并运行测试版，并进行发布工程。
And taking on other responsibilities gave me insights into other departments that made me more successful, early in my career and later on.
承担其他职责让我深入了解其他部门，使我在职业生涯的早期和后期都更加成功。
Carilu Dietrich: And the same thing happens as you're growing, right?
Carilu Dietrich：当你成长时，同样的事情也会发生，对吧？
If a department head leaves and you can spend extra time doing your own job and being the interim for this other function, you can really show the top executives that you have the appetite and the skill to take on more responsibility.
如果部门主管离开，你可以花额外的时间做自己的工作并担任其他职能的临时工作，你可以真正向高层管理人员表明你有兴趣和技能承担更多责任。
Carilu Dietrich: So I think learning as much as you can about your expertise, working really hard, and taking on more responsibilities, and having a great attitude and a strategic mind are probably what I think helps people get to the C-suite on the personal level.
Carilu Dietrich：因此，我认为尽可能多地学习自己的专业知识、努力工作、承担更多责任、拥有良好的态度和战略思维可能有助于人们在个人层面上晋升到最高管理层。
And then I have another set of five things that are what specific ways do you need to train your mind?
然后我还有另外五件事，就是你需要哪些具体的方法来训练你的心？
Lenny: I know there's this backlash against working really hard that happened for a while, but I'm on the same boat as you have of success will come from working really hard.
莱尼：我知道一段时间以来，人们对努力工作产生了强烈的反对，但我和你的看法是一样的，成功来自于努力工作。
And sometimes that sucks, but that's usually how it goes.
有时这很糟糕，但通常就是这样。
Carilu Dietrich: I think there's ebbs and flows in your life.
Carilu Dietrich：我认为你的生活有起有落。
You're going to have a baby here soon, congratulations.
你很快就要生孩子了，恭喜你。
Thank you.
谢谢。
And so maybe you take your foot off the gas for a little bit.
所以也许你可以暂时放下油门。
But really, there's no shortcuts.
但实际上，没有捷径。
There's no shortcuts to knowing a lot.
想要了解很多知识并没有捷径。
Carilu Dietrich: One of the people I admire most is Tomasz Tunguz, who was with Redpoint and now started his own VC firm.
Carilu Dietrich：我最敬佩的人之一是 Tomasz Tunguz，他曾在 Redpoint 工作，现在创办了自己的风险投资公司。
And I was talking to him about his blog and he was like, "I'd just wake up 5:00 or 6:00 AM every morning and write three to four blogs a week for 10 years." Damn.
我和他谈论他的博客，他说，“我每天早上 5:00 或 6:00 起床，每周写三到四个博客，持续 10 年。”该死。
That is self-discipline and insight and drive.
那就是自律、洞察力和动力。
So yeah, no shortcuts.
所以是的，没有捷径。
I think.
我认为。
You look at Denise Persson at Snowflake, and she's worked really hard to get there.
你看看 Snowflake 的丹尼斯·佩尔森 (Denise Persson)，她为了实现这一目标付出了很大的努力。
Carilu Dietrich: So the five things I think you need to do to get to the C-suite that are not personal side are you need to think about how your responsibilities tie to revenue.
Carilu Dietrich：因此，我认为要进入最高管理层，除了个人方面之外，你需要做的五件事是你需要考虑你的职责如何与收入联系起来。
You need to think and talk in the terms of the CEO and the board.
你需要从首席执行官和董事会的角度思考和交谈。
And that can be tricky when you're junior because you don't have exposure to it.
当你还是初级的时候，这可能会很棘手，因为你没有接触过它。
But getting a strong handle on finance, and how the finances of the business work, and how the revenue of the business works.
但要牢牢掌握财务、企业财务如何运作以及企业收入如何运作。
Carilu Dietrich: I went on a tour of the Tesla factory with my daughter's field trip a couple weeks ago.
Carilu Dietrich：几周前，我和女儿一起实地考察了特斯拉工厂。
And the guy who was giving us the tour was like, "So I delivered and stocked all these different parts at the plant and then I would take a list.
带我们参观的人说，“所以我在工厂交付并储存了所有这些不同的零件，然后我会列出一份清单。
And after work every night, I'd go to each part of the plant and try to figure out what they were working on and what the challenges and opportunities were.
每天晚上下班后，我都会去工厂的每个部分，试图弄清楚他们在做什么，以及挑战和机遇是什么。
And that's how I moved up."
我就是这样晋升的。”
Carilu Dietrich: So it's just understanding how the whole thing works together.
Carilu Dietrich：所以这只是了解整个事情如何协同工作。
Because if you want to be in the C-suite, it's a job about how the system works.
因为如果你想成为最高管理层，那么你的工作就是关于系统如何运作。
So I really encourage tours of duty between different departments.
所以我非常鼓励不同部门之间的轮岗。
I told you about my tour of duty and product.
我向您介绍了我的工作经历和产品。
I thought CMOs had to do every function, so I took a tour of duty in every function in marketing, but really getting a sense for other departments.
我认为首席营销官必须承担所有职能，因此我在营销中的每个职能中都履行了职责，但真正了解了其他部门的情况。
Carilu Dietrich: The next thing is the relationships.
Carilu Dietrich：接下来是人际关系。
So building really strong relationships with people by doing good work and helping them.
因此，通过做好工作并帮助人们，与人们建立真正牢固的关系。
And then the last thing I think is the quality of the companies you work for.
我认为最后一件事是你工作的公司的质量。
So your career and your ability to transcend, which is really moving faster than other people to get bigger jobs, is fairly dependent on the momentum of your company.
因此，你的职业生涯和超越的能力（实际上比其他人更快地获得更大的工作）在很大程度上取决于你公司的势头。
Carilu Dietrich: So I was a leader at Oracle for five years, and my team grew from five to seven over five years.
Carilu Dietrich：我在 Oracle 担任领导者五年，我的团队在五年内从五个发展到七个。
And I was a leader at Atlassian for four years, and my team grew from 15 to 100.
我在 Atlassian 担任领导者四年，我的团队从 15 人增加到 100 人。
And so if you pick the right company with the right momentum, you have a better chance of getting higher level experiences and accelerated career growth.
因此，如果您选择动力强劲的合适公司，您就有更好的机会获得更高水平的经验并加速职业发展。
Carilu Dietrich: And then I guess one little footnote.
Carilu Dietrich：然后我想有一个小脚注。
If you pick great companies, great people work for those companies, and go out and work at other companies and also give you opportunities.
如果你选择了优秀的公司，优秀的人才会为这些公司工作，然后出去到其他公司工作，也会给你机会。
So I ended up at Atlassian kind of in a stroke of good luck because I had worked for Jay Simons, the president, at two companies before.
所以我最终加入 Atlassian 算是一种幸运，因为我之前曾在两家公司为总裁 Jay Simons 工作过。
So the quality of the first company, Plumtree, really helped propel my whole career.
因此，第一家公司 Plumtree 的品质确实帮助推动了我的整个职业生涯。
Lenny: There's so many things I want to double click on there.
莱尼：有很多东西我想双击那里。
The last piece, it's the advice I always give people when they're early in their career is to go find a company that's going to do super well.
最后一点，这是我在人们职业生涯早期时总是给他们的建议，那就是寻找一家表现出色的公司。
That one experience is going to transform your entire career.
那一次经历将改变你的整个职业生涯。
Having the logo on your resume, the people you meet, the experience you get financially.
在你的简历上、你遇到的人、你获得的经济经验上都有这个标志。
But that begs the question, how do you find that?
但这引出了一个问题，你如何找到它？
How do you pick a company?
你如何选择一家公司？
I think in your advising today, you join later where it's a little more obvious.
我认为在你今天的建议中，你稍后加入，这一点更加明显。
"Okay, they're doing great." Do you have any advice or lessons about how to identify earlier where to go work and how to be lucky in that pick?
“好吧，他们做得很好。”关于如何尽早确定去哪里工作以及如何在选择中保持幸运，您有什么建议或经验教训吗？
Carilu Dietrich: Isn't that the billion-dollar question?
Carilu Dietrich：这不是一个价值十亿美元的问题吗？
So I worked for-
所以我工作过——
Carilu Dietrich: Yeah.
卡里卢·迪特里希：是的。
I worked at Atlassian, which was phenomenal.
我在 Atlassian 工作，这家公司非常棒。
Then I worked for Classy, which was a company that helped nonprofits raise money.
然后我在 Classy 工作，这是一家帮助非营利组织筹集资金的公司。
Carilu Dietrich: Thank you.
卡里卢·迪特里希：谢谢。
And we were acquired by GoFundMe.
我们被 GoFundMe 收购了。
And it was fine, but it was no Atlassian.
这很好，但它不是 Atlassian。
And then I spent the next five years trying to figure out, how do you pick your next Atlassian?
然后我花了接下来的五年时间试图弄清楚，如何选择你的下一个 Atlassian？
So my advice would be for people earlier in their careers, it's easy to pick the winners if you go work for a big company that's a winner.
所以我的建议是，对于职业生涯早期的人来说，如果你去一家成功的大公司工作，那么很容易选出赢家。
I would love to work for Tesla, or AWS.
我很想为 Tesla 或 AWS 工作。
Or right this second, I would die kill for a job at OpenAI.
或者就在这一刻，我会为了 OpenAI 的工作而拼命。
You know some of the big companies that are successful...
你知道一些成功的大公司......
Salesforce has totally been a career maker to so many top executives.
对于许多高层管理人员来说，Salesforce 完全是职业生涯的创造者。
Carilu Dietrich: So early in your career, working for big name high momentum companies.
卡里卢·迪特里希（Carilu Dietrich）：在你职业生涯的早期，为大牌、高动力公司工作。
I think you can't wimp out.
我觉得你不能掉以轻心。
You've got to want it and go for it.
你必须想要它并且去争取它。
And maybe you apply year after year, and you meet people, and you try for it early in your company.
也许你年复一年地申请，你遇到了一些人，你在公司的早期就尝试了这一点。
Carilu Dietrich: Later in your career, I think what you just said, picking later stage versus earlier stage gives you a better view of their momentum.
Carilu Dietrich：在你的职业生涯后期，我认为你刚才所说的，选择后期阶段与早期阶段可以让你更好地了解他们的势头。
I actually have a Post-it note, got it here, about what I look for.
我实际上有一张便利贴，是在这里找到的，上面写着我要找的东西。
10 parts of what would evaluate to see-
评估的 10 部分内容-
Lenny: You just have that Post-it note around?
莱尼：你身上只有那张便利贴吗？
Carilu Dietrich: I do.
卡里卢·迪特里希：我愿意。
It's one of five Post-it notes on my board.
这是我板上的五张便利贴之一。
Lenny: I want to hear what the rest are too.
莱尼：我也想听听剩下的是什么。
But keep going.
但继续前进。
Carilu Dietrich: I have to look at it for advisory.
Carilu Dietrich：我必须看看它以寻求建议。
I only take eight to 10 clients.
我只接待八到十个客户。
I'm always full.
我总是很饱。
And so it has to be a phenomenal company.
因此它必须是一家非凡的公司。
So how do I know if it's a phenomenal company?
那么我怎么知道它是否是一家非凡的公司呢？
Here's my list.
这是我的清单。
Rule of 40, which is your profitability and your costs together.
40 法则，即你的盈利能力和成本的总和。
The quality of the investors.
投资者的素质。
Are they really top tier investors?
他们真的是顶级投资者吗？
Are they mid tier or some you've never heard of?
它们是中层还是您从未听说过的？
Investors do a lot of due diligence, but you also want to look at their most recent rounds, because they could have phenomenal early stage and have slowed down.
投资者会做很多尽职调查，但你也想看看他们最近几轮融资，因为他们可能有惊人的早期阶段，但已经放缓了。
I think the later the size, the more reliable, because they've just made it farther.
我认为尺寸越晚越可靠，因为他们只是把它做得更远。
Carilu Dietrich: Their Net Promoter Score or their customer satisfaction.
Carilu Dietrich：他们的净推荐值或客户满意度。
Do people really rapidly love this product or is it like meh?
人们真的很快就喜欢上了这个产品还是只是无聊？
Their net dollar retention, which is, how fast is their revenue growing?
他们的净美元保留率，即他们的收入增长速度有多快？
And I should have it on my Post-it note, but Snowflake was the benchmark.
我应该把它放在便利贴上，但雪花是基准。
I think they were growing at 142%.
我认为他们的增长率为 142%。
Lenny: I think at one point it was 180, whatever.
Lenny：我想有一次是 180，无论如何。
Carilu Dietrich: Yeah.
卡里卢·迪特里希：是的。
That sounds right.
听起来不错。
180, 165.
180、165。
Net dollar retention, if you have a customer and they just renew at the same dollar rate, it would be 100.
净美元保留率，如果您有客户并且他们只是以相同的美元汇率续订，则该值将为 100。
So 180 is almost doubling just their customers.
所以 180 几乎是他们的客户数量的两倍。
So they didn't even need new customers, almost doubled their business.
所以他们甚至不需要新客户，业务几乎翻了一番。
A phenomenal net dollar retention means it's a really strong healthy business.
惊人的净美元保留意味着这是一项非常强大、健康的业务。
Carilu Dietrich: I looked at their growth rate last year, their burn rate, are they going to run out of money?
Carilu Dietrich：我去年观察了他们的增长率、烧钱率，他们会耗尽资金吗？
And then ideally, are they number one in their market?
那么理想情况下，他们是市场上的第一名吗？
Do they have a Forrester or a Gartner Magic Quadrant?
他们有 Forrester 或 Gartner 魔力象限吗？
People tell you if they're number one.
人们会告诉你他们是否是第一。
Carilu Dietrich: And then the last thing is I look at their Glassdoor.
Carilu Dietrich：最后一件事是我看他们的 Glassdoor。
Is it just a bad place to work and where people unhappy?
难道这只是一个工作环境不好、人们不快乐的地方吗？
Because they don't actually survive as long as companies where people are happier.
因为它们实际上并不比人们更快乐的公司生存得更久。
Lenny: I love this list.
莱尼：我喜欢这个清单。
You should turn it into a blog post, and there's another idea for you.
您应该将其变成一篇博客文章，还有另一个想法适合您。
Can you share what the other Post-its are around you?
你能分享一下你周围的其他便利贴吗？
Even broadly.
甚至广泛地说。
Carilu Dietrich: I can.
卡里卢·迪特里希：我可以。
One says, "More Yoda, less Wonder Woman," which basically is ask better questions.
有人说，“多点尤达，少点神奇女侠”，这基本上就是提出更好的问题。
The second one was-
第二个是——
Carilu Dietrich: Yeah, right?
卡里卢·迪特里希：是啊，对吧？
Ask them backwards.
倒着问他们。
Which is funny, because the other Yoda thing I have up Is...
这很有趣，因为我的尤达的另一件事是......
Here wait.
在这里等待。
"Do or do not.
“做或不做。
There is no try." Backwards.
没有尝试。”向后。
I have another one that says, "Hell yes or no." When opportunities come to you and you're like, "Should I do this or should I not do this?" You only have so much time in your life.
我还有另一句话说：“到底是或否。”当机会来临时，你会想：“我应该这样做还是不应该这样做？”你一生中只有这么多时间。
And so if it's not something that really excites you and gives you energy, it's tough to be the best at it.
因此，如果某件事不能真正让你兴奋并给你能量，你就很难做到最好。
And so hell yes or no.
所以到底是或否。
Carilu Dietrich: And then the last one is, "Worrying is wasted energy," because I think we live in this economic pressure cooker, and there's a lot of fear and uncertainty.
Carilu Dietrich：最后一个是“担忧是浪费精力”，因为我认为我们生活在经济高压锅中，存在很多恐惧和不确定性。
But we just need to take that fear and uncertainty and thank it for giving us urgency.
但我们只需要接受这种恐惧和不确定性，并感谢它给我们带来紧迫感。
And then make the list of what can we control now and what should we do next.
然后列出我们现在可以控制的事情以及下一步应该做什么。
Lenny: That's actually a perfect segue to my next question.
莱尼：这实际上是我下一个问题的完美延续。
And by the way, that was amazing.
顺便说一句，这太棒了。
I'm glad that I asked about your Post-its.
我很高兴询问你的便利贴的事。
That's a whole life philosophy right there in Post-its.
这就是便利贴上的一生哲学。
Carilu Dietrich: Yeah, I should do a BeReal.
Carilu Dietrich：是的，我应该做 BeReal。
This is what is looks like at this side.
这就是这一面的样子。
These are all the Post-its.
这些都是便利贴。
Lenny: Okay.
莱尼：好的。
So the question is around, I don't know if we're technically in a recession, but maybe we're on the verge of recession.
所以问题是，我不知道我们在技术上是否处于衰退之中，但也许我们正处于衰退的边缘。
The market's not great.
市场不太大啊
And a lot of people are being laid off, or have been laid off, or are worried about being laid off, or just graduating college and looking for jobs.
而很多人正在被下岗，或者已经被下岗，或者担心被下岗，或者刚刚大学毕业找工作。
And I'm curious if you have advice for people trying to find a job in this market or just generally trying to accelerate their career.
我很好奇您是否对那些试图在这个市场找到工作或只是想加速职业发展的人有什么建议。
What is your advice for just how to deal with this environment while also trying to advance your career?
对于如何应对这种环境，同时努力提升自己的职业生涯，您有何建议？
Carilu Dietrich: I'd like to take in two parts.
Carilu Dietrich：我想分为两部分。
One is if you're unemployed and one is you're in a job.
一种是你失业了，一种是你有工作。
So if you're unemployed, it's tough.
所以如果你失业了，那就很难了。
It's a tough time.
这是一段艰难的时期。
There's a lot of supply.
供应量很大。
And so I think you just really need endurance and grit.
所以我认为你真的需要耐力和勇气。
And the sticker worrying is wasted energy, because you will get another job.
而担心的贴纸是浪费精力，因为你会找到另一份工作。
It's just going to be a little bit more of a bumpy ride than some other years.
与其他年份相比，这将是一段更加坎坷的旅程。
Carilu Dietrich: And the best executives I know have had down periods in their careers, where they were out of work for a while, where they were fired by a CEO, who this or that.
Carilu Dietrich：我认识的最优秀的高管在职业生涯中都经历过低潮期，他们失业一段时间，被首席执行官解雇，无论是这样还是那样。
And what they have in common is endurance.
而他们的共同点就是耐力。
They're just back in the ring.
他们刚刚回到擂台上。
So I think it's important to not lose endurance.
所以我认为不要失去耐力很重要。
Carilu Dietrich: It's also important not to settle on a crappy job or a crappy company.
Carilu Dietrich：同样重要的是不要选择糟糕的工作或糟糕的公司。
Each job you have prepares you for the next job, and each logo you have prepares you for the next job.
您拥有的每项工作都为您为下一份工作做好准备，您拥有的每个徽标也为您为下一份工作做好准备。
Carilu Dietrich: So I'd spent a lot of my career trying to also chase waves.
Carilu Dietrich：所以我在职业生涯中花了很多时间尝试追逐波浪。
My first job in college, I was in nonprofit, and then I wrote a book on the giving programs of the top 50 tech companies.
我在大学时的第一份工作是在非营利组织，然后我写了一本关于前 50 名科技公司的捐赠计划的书。
And I realized that tech companies had a bunch of money in 1999, and were giving it away to charities.
我意识到科技公司在 1999 年拥有大量资金，并将其捐赠给慈善机构。
And I wanted to go into tech, because that's where the growth and money was.
我想进入科技行业，因为那是增长和资金所在。
And I thought I could give it back to the world and good, but I could be inside the bubble.
我以为我可以把它还给世界，但我可能会身处泡沫之中。
Carilu Dietrich: And then within tech, I moved my way to B2B.
Carilu Dietrich：然后在科技领域，我转向了 B2B。
And within B2B, I moved my way to SaaS.
在 B2B 领域，我转向了 SaaS。
And within SaaS, I've moved my way into dev tools, and collaboration, and now AI.
在 SaaS 领域，我已经转向开发工具和协作，现在又转向人工智能。
Carilu Dietrich: There's this book called The Millionaire Next Door, which talks about how the very best antique store makes one or 2% profit.
Carilu Dietrich：有一本叫做《隔壁的百万富翁》的书，讲述了最好的古董店如何赚取 1% 或 2% 的利润。
And the very worst oil and gas company makes 35% profit.
而最差的石油和天然气公司的利润只有35%。
And we know that some of the worst software companies make 65% profit.
我们知道，一些最差的软件公司的利润高达 65%。
Carilu Dietrich: So picking your industry will propel your career, and picking the right company will propel your career, and then doing a good job will propel your career.
Carilu Dietrich：所以选择你的行业将推动你的职业生涯，选择正确的公司将推动你的职业生涯，然后做好工作将推动你的职业生涯。
So I think that there's no magic bullet to getting a job.
所以我认为找到工作没有灵丹妙药。
But working your network, sticking with it, and continuing to grow your skills are the three most important things.
但是，运用你的网络、坚持下去并继续提高你的技能是最重要的三件事。
Lenny: Big part of this conclusion is don't feel like your career needs to slow down in this period.
莱尼：这个结论的很大一部分是不要觉得你的职业生涯需要在这段时期放慢脚步。
Carilu Dietrich: And I think if you're in a job, some of my greatest career growth came in the economic downturns.
Carilu Dietrich：我认为，如果你在工作，我最大的职业成长是在经济低迷时期。
In the 2000s, in the 2008.
2000年代，2008年。
Because other people take their foot off the gas, and you can put your foot down.
因为其他人不再踩油门，而你可以放下你的脚。
If you're willing to learn more, hit yourself into new roles or new responsibilities that no one's covering at your company.
如果您愿意了解更多信息，请让自己担任公司中无人胜任的新角色或新职责。
When they don't hire tons of people for everything, there's lots of open projects where you can raise your hand and grow.
当他们不会为所有事情雇佣大量人员时，就会有很多开放项目，你可以举手并成长。
You just can't be as focused on title and salary right now.
你现在不能那么关注头衔和薪水。
You're kind of building up value that you'll be able to monetize on the other end of this recession or downturn.
你正在积累价值，在这次经济衰退或低迷时期你可以将其货币化。
Lenny: Let's segue to chatting about growth.
莱尼：让我们继续讨论增长吧。
And I thought it'd be fun to start with your story of running some very expensive ad campaigns.
我认为从你运行一些非常昂贵的广告活动的故事开始会很有趣。
I know the founders are always kind of flirting with this idea of buying a bunch of billboards, running TV ads, maybe subway ads and bus ads.
我知道创始人总是想买一堆广告牌，投放电视广告，也许是地铁广告和公交车广告。
And you've done a lot of that and you've spent a lot of money doing that, and particularly non-digital advertising.
你已经做了很多这样的事情，并且花了很多钱，特别是非数字广告。
And so I'm curious what you've learned from your experience and approach to this sort of marketing spend.
因此，我很好奇您从此类营销支出的经验和方法中学到了什么。
Carilu Dietrich: Yes.
卡里卢·迪特里希：是的。
I've spent hundreds of millions of dollars on it actually.
实际上我已经花了数亿美元。
I ran global awareness advertising for Oracle, and did all of the airports, and the front page of the Wall Street Journal, on the back page of The Economist, and take over in the middle of Salesforce in downtown San Francisco.
我为 Oracle 投放了全球知名度广告，在所有机场、《华尔街日报》头版、《经济学人》封底投放广告，并接管了旧金山市中心的 Salesforce 中心。
And we did the Ironman movie sponsorships, and the sports teams and arena sponsorships.
我们还赞助了钢铁侠电影、运动队和竞技场。
Carilu Dietrich: Super expensive.
卡里卢·迪特里希：超级贵。
And then Atlassian to a lesser degree, we spent several million dollars on different awareness campaigns to get chat noticed, or to associate Jira with the Atlassian brand.
然后，在 Atlassian 上，我们花费了数百万美元进行不同的宣传活动，以引起聊天关注，或者将 Jira 与 Atlassian 品牌联系起来。
Advertising is sexy and super expensive for the benefits.
广告是性感的，而且对于好处来说超级昂贵。
It's a multi-year benefit of awareness.
这是意识的多年好处。
People have to see things many times, and it has to really resonate with them.
人们必须多次看到事物，并且它必须真正引起他们的共鸣。
Carilu Dietrich: So my advice to founders is that the most important thing is the quality of your product.
Carilu Dietrich：所以我对创始人的建议是，最重要的是产品的质量。
Oracle spent a ton of money, and people still didn't like us in a lot of ways because they had poor experiences with the salespeople, or they didn't like Larry, or the product had kind of languished since it had been acquired by the company.
甲骨文花了很多钱，但人们在很多方面仍然不喜欢我们，因为他们与销售人员的经验很差，或者他们不喜欢拉里，或者该产品自从被公司收购以来一直处于停滞状态。
So your product has to really be fantastic.
所以你的产品必须非常出色。
And then also to do good brand advertising, it has to be sustained over a long period of time.
然后，要做好品牌广告，就必须长期持续。
Carilu Dietrich: So Oracle had the front page of the Wall Street Journal, back page of The Economist, this boring advertising template with the red bar, but it made it memorable.
Carilu Dietrich：甲骨文登上了《华尔街日报》的头版、《经济学人》的封底，这个带有红条的无聊广告模板，但它让它令人难忘。
We would do market tests, and two or three or 10 times more people would recognize the Oracle brand without the logo, because of the consistency versus SAP or or IBM.
我们会进行市场测试，由于与 SAP 或 IBM 的一致性，两倍、三倍或十倍的人会认出没有徽标的 Oracle 品牌。
Carilu Dietrich: So you really need to be thoughtful about spending consistently over a longer period of time, and a smaller amount on a fewer number of things can be really effective.
Carilu Dietrich：所以你确实需要考虑在较长一段时间内持续支出，并且在更少的事情上花更少的钱才能真正有效。
So Snowflake, for instance, has always gotten credit for doing a billboard on 101, and people think they do lots of advertising.
例如，Snowflake 一直因在 101 上制作广告牌而受到赞誉，人们认为他们做了很多广告。
But for many years, it was only the billboard on 101.
但多年来，它只是101上的广告牌。
It was just sustained and strategic.
它只是持续的和战略性的。
Lenny: So I guess two things that I take away from that is one, you can spend a lot of money, and if your product's not actually incredible, it's not really going to do much.
莱尼：所以我想我从中得到的两点是，你可以花很多钱，如果你的产品实际上并不令人难以置信，它就不会真正发挥多大作用。
And correct me if I'm wrong.
如果我错了，请纠正我。
And then two is sometimes, just one very targeted spend is worth a lot more than just blanketing a bunch of ads.
第二个是，有时，仅仅一次非常有针对性的支出就比仅仅覆盖一堆广告更有价值。
Carilu Dietrich: Absolutely.
卡里卢·迪特里希：当然。
I was telling you a story that at Atlassian, we did a big advertising campaign on our HipChat product, which was head-to-head with Slack, and it was an Office Space spoof with Bill Lumbergh.
我给大家讲了一个故事，在 Atlassian，我们对我们的 HipChat 产品做了一场大型广告活动，与 Slack 正面交锋，而且是与 Bill Lumbergh 的 Office Space 恶搞。
But the product had some uptime issues, and some feature issues, and Slack pulled ahead, and the advertising wasn't what would've made it or broken the product.
但该产品存在一些正常运行时间问题和一些功能问题，Slack 领先了，而广告并不能成功或破坏该产品。
It's really the product experience, and the advertising just amplifies.
这实际上是产品体验，而广告只是放大了效果。
Lenny: I think you also shared with me this HipChat ad, that's maybe my favorite billboard ever.
Lenny：我想你也和我分享了这个 HipChat 广告，那可能是我最喜欢的广告牌。
And I don't even know why looking back, but it made me laugh so hard.
我什至不知道为什么回想起来，但它让我笑得很厉害。
Back in the day, it was this meme of some early meme stick figure guy saying, "Why you no use HipChat?" Looking back I'm like, "Okay.
回到过去，这是一些早期模因简笔画人物说的模因，“为什么你不使用 HipChat？”回想起来，我想：“好吧。
I don't know how funny." But I think in the moment that was a really popular meme, and it really stuck with me.
我不知道有多好笑。”但我认为当时这是一个非常流行的模因，它真的让我印象深刻。
Carilu Dietrich: Well if you think about the best advertising, it's something that has a little twist of humor, or personality, or truth that sticks in your brain.
Carilu Dietrich：如果你想到最好的广告，它就是带有一点幽默、个性或真理的东西，这些东西会牢牢地留在你的脑海里。
So yes, that was a successful advertising.
是的，这是一个成功的广告。
And kudos to my team, because of course I don't write it myself as the head of marketing.
感谢我的团队，因为当然我不是作为营销主管自己编写的。
But yeah.
但是是的。
Carilu Dietrich: And some of my other favorite ads are also others that highlight the customer.
Carilu Dietrich：我最喜欢的其他一些广告也是突出客户的广告。
So New Relic did an advertising campaign around data nerds.
因此，New Relic 围绕数据迷开展了一场广告活动。
When data nerds were not really popular, they were still nerds.
当数据书呆子还没有真正流行的时候，他们仍然是书呆子。
And they had these tattoos that said nerd life, and they featured customers on billboards talking about cool data nerds.
他们的纹身表达了书呆子的生活，他们在广告牌上展示了顾客谈论酷炫的数据书呆子。
And some of those campaigns that really stand out have something that's funny, unexpected, and then true to the product.
其中一些真正脱颖而出的活动有一些有趣的、意想不到的、并且忠于产品的东西。
Lenny: I remember those, one of the ads featured, our CTO at Airbnb, Mike Curtis, and everyone was very excited to see his face on the Billboards.
Lenny：我记得其中一则广告，我们的 Airbnb 首席技术官 Mike Curtis，每个人都非常兴奋地看到他的脸出现在广告牌上。
Carilu Dietrich: Yeah, Salesforce has done a great job with those over the years too, really highlighting the customers.
Carilu Dietrich：是的，多年来 Salesforce 在这些方面也做得很好，真正突出了客户。
Lenny: So zooming out a little bit, you specialize working with companies that are going through hypergrowth.
莱尼：所以稍微缩小一点，你专门与正在经历高速增长的公司合作。
And you've worked with companies like Miro, Segment, Bill.com, which I don't know if people know is just a massive, massive business.
你曾与 Miro、Segment、Bill.com 等公司合作过，我不知道人们是否知道这些公司是一家规模庞大的企业。
And also 1Password.
还有 1Password。
Lenny: And on the topic of 1Password, interestingly I didn't realize how big and how fast 1Password has been growing.
Lenny：关于 1Password 的话题，有趣的是，我没有意识到 1Password 的发展有多大、有多快。
And just last week I saw this report from Okta where they have all this interesting data about which products people are using, and they put out this report showing which products you're getting the most new customers.
就在上周，我看到了 Okta 的这份报告，他们提供了有关人们正在使用哪些产品的所有有趣数据，他们发布了这份报告，显示哪些产品吸引了最多的新客户。
And then on a different axis, which companies are getting the most users per new customer.
然后在另一个轴上，哪些公司的新客户数量最多。
Lenny: And there's this six companies in this quadrant.
莱尼：这个象限中有六家公司。
Figma, Miro, Snowflake, Sentry, HubSpot, and 1Password, which blew my mind.
Figma、Miro、Snowflake、Sentry、HubSpot 和 1Password，这让我大吃一惊。
And interestingly, you work with two of them.
有趣的是，你和其中两个人一起工作。
And so all that to say, what have you noticed about what is most in common with companies that are going through hypergrowth?
综上所述，您注意到正在经历高速增长的公司最常见的共同点是什么？
What is most in common in terms of what has contributed to them being that successful?
他们取得如此成功的最共同点是什么？
Carilu Dietrich: The biggest thing is an amazing product that people love to use.
Carilu Dietrich：最重要的是人们喜欢使用的令人惊叹的产品。
I mean ChatGPT is the most hypergrowth product that we've seen in history potentially, because people are so excited to use it and it's working in interesting ways.
我的意思是，ChatGPT 可能是我们历史上见过的最高速增长的产品，因为人们非常兴奋地使用它，而且它以有趣的方式工作。
So Miro, whiteboards were the number one most uploaded asset in Jira forever.
因此，Miro、白板永远是 Jira 中上传最多的资产。
Because people all get together and they write their ideas on a whiteboard, and then they need to remember it and iterate on it.
因为人们聚集在一起，将自己的想法写在白板上，然后他们需要记住并迭代它。
And that bringing that concept to life just hit a cord that people wanted to use.
将这一概念变为现实正好触动了人们想要使用的绳索。
And when one person uses it, another person uses it.
当一个人使用它时，另一个人也会使用它。
Carilu Dietrich: 1Password similarly, I've been a 1Password user for more than 10 years.
Carilu Dietrich：1Password 同样，我成为 1Password 用户已有 10 多年了。
We used it at Atlassian, as a corporate.
我们在 Atlassian 作为一家公司使用了它。
And then they have the family plan.
然后他们就有了家庭计划。
So I used it at home and then my dad got elderly, so I had a family that I was the administrator for, and then I go into different companies and you bring it with you.
所以我在家里使用它，然后我爸爸年纪大了，所以我有一个家庭，我是我的管理员，然后我进入不同的公司，你带着它。
Carilu Dietrich: And one of the other companies I advise is Productboard.
Carilu Dietrich：我建议的其他公司之一是 Productboard。
And I became an advisor of Productboard because 1Password's CPO had it in another company, brought it into 1Password, rolled it out company-wide to get alignment and visibility on the product roadmap.
我成为 Productboard 的顾问，因为 1Password 的 CPO 在另一家公司拥有它，将其带入 1Password，在全公司范围内推广，以获得产品路线图的一致性和可见性。
Carilu Dietrich: So in order to get hypergrowth, you have to have organic, inbound, and viral word of mouth.
Carilu Dietrich：所以为了获得高速增长，你必须拥有有机的、入站的和病毒式的口碑。
You can't pay enough to grow at those rates and have a viable company, especially in this economic efficiency market.
你无法支付足够的费用来以这样的速度增长并拥有一家可行的公司，尤其是在这个经济效率市场中。
So has to be an amazing product, has to have some viral activity.
因此必须是一款令人惊叹的产品，必须具有一定的病毒活性。
So we just talked about Miro or Atlassian.
所以我们只讨论了 Miro 或 Atlassian。
You could have an individual person use it and then they say, "Hey, I'm going to present at this meeting with Miro, come join me on my board.
你可以让一个人使用它，然后他们说：“嘿，我将在这次会议上与米罗一起发言，来加入我的董事会吧。
I've got these confluence pages we'd set up as a wiki about these engineering topics, and I want your team to collaborate on them." So those natural points where your users are selling to other people is way more efficient than having sales people that have to sell to other people.
我已经将这些融合页面设置为有关这些工程主题的维基，我希望您的团队能够在这些页面上进行协作。”因此，用户向其他人销售的自然点比销售人员必须向其他人销售的效率要高得多。
Carilu Dietrich: And then I think the third thing is really riding the lightning, I would call it.
Carilu Dietrich：然后我认为第三件事是真正的驾驭闪电，我称之为。
So hypergrowth companies go through the stages of growth that would take other companies five years or 10 years.
因此，高速增长的公司会经历其他公司需要五年或十年的增长阶段。
They're going from 10 to 50, they're going from 50 to 100, they're going from 100 to 200, they're jumping.
他们从 10 到 50，从 50 到 100，从 100 到 200，他们在跳跃。
And so they really need to keep hiring 2X and 3X leaders who have seen the next stage of growth.
因此，他们确实需要继续雇用已经看到下一阶段增长的 2 倍和 3 倍领导者。
And then the people inside can be homegrown talent, but it's tricky to keep up.
然后里面的人可以是本土人才，但要跟上是很棘手的。
Carilu Dietrich: So my whole business is based on people who are trying to be homegrown leaders, but don't know what the next stage of growth looked like.
Carilu Dietrich：所以我的整个业务都是基于那些试图成为本土领导者但不知道下一阶段的增长是什么样的人。
And so a lot of hypergrowth companies hire ahead, hire advisors.
因此，许多高速增长的公司都会提前招聘顾问。
Leaders need to really think about mentors and friendships of people who know what great looks like at the next scale, because it's going to be here before you know it.
领导者需要真正考虑那些知道下一个层面的伟大是什么样的人的导师和友谊，因为它会在你意识到之前就出现了。
And so I would say those things.
所以我会说这些话。
Amazing product, viral movement, and company that can ride the lightning.
令人惊叹的产品、病毒般的传播以及能够驾驭闪电的公司。
Lenny: I imagine founders listening to this that don't have insane virality or huge word of mouth are like, "Is there no path to being a really successful company?" And then I think about companies that did succeed with other channels, like say paid or SEO.
莱尼：我想那些没有疯狂病毒式传播或口碑传播的创始人听到这个消息时会想：“难道就没有成为一家真正成功的公司的途径吗？”然后我想到了在其他渠道上取得成功的公司，比如付费或搜索引擎优化。
And so I guess the question for you is, do you need to grow in this environment, I guess, primarily through word of mouth, organic reality, growth engines?
所以我想你的问题是，你是否需要在这种环境中成长，我想，主要是通过口碑、有机现实、增长引擎？
Or do you still see opportunity for companies to grow other ways, say paid, or SEO, or sales eventually?
或者您仍然认为公司有机会以其他方式发展，例如付费、搜索引擎优化或最终销售？
Carilu Dietrich: For sure.
卡里卢·迪特里希：当然。
All of the things are important.
所有的事情都很重要。
I think what I wanted to say first as you were talking was that it's easy to look at a company after they've been viral and be like, "That's amazing." I would like to start a newsletter.
我想在你讲话时我首先想说的是，当一家公司像病毒一样传播后，人们很容易会说，“这太棒了。”我想开始撰写时事通讯。
I have.
我有。
It's carilu.com.
这是 carilu.com。
Lenny has a newsletter.
莱尼有一份时事通讯。
How can I ever grow like Lenny's virality?
我怎样才能像莱尼那样获得病毒式传播？
But Lenny started with one blog, and then another, and the consistency.
但莱尼从一个博客开始，然后是另一个，并且保持一致性。
Carilu Dietrich: And when I look back at Atlassian, people would be like, "It must have been so easy to go from 100 to 500 million." And it never felt easy.
Carilu Dietrich：当我回顾 Atlassian 时，人们会说，“从 100 亿到 5 亿一定很容易。”这从来都不是一件容易的事。
It was a slog to do exactly what you're talking about.
准确地做你所说的事情是一个艰难的过程。
New features, listen to customers, strong SEO.
新功能、倾听客户意见、强大的 SEO。
Actually SEO was the number one marketing motion that we used, and SEM.
实际上，SEO 和 SEM 是我们使用的第一大营销活动。
We spent probably between 15 and 25% of our leads from paid search marketing at the time.
当时，我们大概有 15% 到 25% 的销售线索来自付费搜索营销。
Now I have a ton of customers that are pretty deep into account-based marketing.
现在我有很多客户对基于帐户的营销非常深入。
Carilu Dietrich: Getting to virality and getting the hypergrowth is not a magic bullet.
Carilu Dietrich：病毒式传播和高速增长并不是灵丹妙药。
It's consistency, customer obsession, incremental improvements across all parts of the business.
它是一致性、客户至上、业务各个部分的渐进式改进。
So I think founders just need to double down on having a product that's differentiated and does something that their customers really love.
因此，我认为创始人只需要加倍努力，打造一款差异化的产品，并做一些客户真正喜欢的事情。
And each incremental step is a step forward.
每一步都是向前迈出的一步。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Coda.
莱尼：这一集是由 Coda 为您带来的。
You've heard me talk about how Coda is the doc that brings it all together and how can help your team run smoother and be more efficient.
您已经听过我谈论 Coda 是如何将所有内容整合在一起的文档，以及如何帮助您的团队运行得更顺畅、更高效。
I know this firsthand because Coda does that for me.
我直接知道这一点，因为 Coda 为我做到了这一点。
I use Coda every day to wrangle my newsletter content calendar, my interview notes for podcast, and to coordinate my sponsors.
我每天都使用 Coda 来整理我的时事通讯内容日历、播客采访笔记，并协调我的赞助商。
Lenny: More recently, I actually wrote a whole post on how Coda's product team operates, and within that post they shared a dozen templates that they use internally to run their product team.
Lenny：最近，我实际上写了一篇关于 Coda 产品团队如何运作的整篇文章，在那篇文章中，他们分享了他们在内部使用来运行产品团队的十几个模板。
Including managing the roadmap, their OKR process, getting internal feedback, and essentially their whole product development process is done within Coda.
包括管理路线图、OKR 流程、获取内部反馈，基本上他们的整个产品开发流程都是在 Coda 内完成的。
Lenny: If your team's work is spread out across different documents and spreadsheets and a stack of workflow tools, that's why you need Coda.
Lenny：如果您团队的工作分散在不同的文档、电子表格和一堆工作流程工具中，那么您就需要 Coda。
Coda puts data in one centralized location regardless of format, eliminating roadblocks that can slow your team down.
Coda 将数据放在一个集中位置，无论其格式如何，消除了可能拖慢团队速度的障碍。
Coda allows your team to operate on the same information and collaborate in one place.
Coda 允许您的团队在一个地方处理相同的信息并进行协作。
Take advantage of the special limited time offer just for startups.
利用专为初创公司提供的特别限时优惠。
Plan up today at Coda.io/lenny and get a $1,000 startup credit on your first statement.
今天就在 Coda.io/lenny 上进行计划，并在您的第一份账单上获得 1,000 美元的启动信贷。
That's Coda.io/lenny to sign up and get a startup credit of $1,000.
注册 Coda.io/lenny 即可获得 1,000 美元的启动资金。
Coda.io/lenny.
Coda.io/lenny。
Lenny: Say that you as a company are seeing word of mouth in some virality, and you want to think about accelerating that, leaning into word of mouth.
莱尼：假设您作为一家公司在某些病毒式传播中看到了口碑传播，并且您想要考虑加速这一过程，倾向于口碑传播。
Obviously you want everyone to be talking about how awesome you are sharing with their friends.
显然，您希望每个人都谈论您与他们的朋友分享的内容有多棒。
Is there anything that you've seen as a good way to lean into word of mouth and accelerate it?
您认为有什么是依靠口碑传播并加速传播的好方法吗？
Carilu Dietrich: I think there's two or three things.
Carilu Dietrich：我认为有两三件事。
One is really empowering the people in your company to be thought leaders.
一是真正赋予公司员工成为思想领袖的能力。
So early days, Atlassian's founders were on all the developer boards.
早期，Atlassian 的创始人就在所有开发者委员会中。
And in fact, I remember, we were maybe 150 million or 200 million, and Scott Farquhar the CEO was still participating and going back and forth in different dev forums when I was like, "I don't know, should we elevate your status?
事实上，我记得，我们可能有 1.5 亿或 2 亿，首席执行官斯科特·法夸尔（Scott Farquhar）仍然参与并在不同的开发论坛上来回走动，当时我想，“我不知道，我们应该提升你的地位吗？
Should we have evangelists and engineers that do this?"
我们应该有传道者和工程师来做这件事吗？”
Carilu Dietrich: And we did, right?
Carilu Dietrich：我们做到了，对吧？
And look, one of my clients now is Weights & Biases, the ML ops company helping lots of different AI companies with their ML models.
看，我现在的客户之一是 Weights & Biases，这是一家机器学习操作公司，帮助许多不同的人工智能公司使用他们的机器学习模型。
And they have really thoughtful technical people who know more and write more on the blog and engage with their community.
他们拥有非常有思想的技术人员，他们了解更多，在博客上写更多内容，并与社区互动。
And that creates a word of mouth, because they're providing both a product and concepts and learning.
这会产生口碑，因为他们提供产品、概念和学习。
That's one of the HubSpot secrets was all of their really thoughtful, helpful content, certifications for marketers.
HubSpot 的秘密之一是他们为营销人员提供真正周到、有用的内容和认证。
Carilu Dietrich: So I think going back to summarize, word of mouth can be driven by thought leadership, which is hiring the right people to really be deeply engaged as super experts.
Carilu Dietrich：所以我认为回顾一下，口碑可以由思想领导力驱动，即聘请合适的人作为超级专家真正深入参与。
Having a really strong content strategy that's either in communities that already exist, online communities, open source communities.
在现有社区、在线社区、开源社区中拥有真正强大的内容策略。
Carilu Dietrich: And then third I would say building your own community.
Carilu Dietrich：第三，我想说的是建立自己的社区。
So no one sells your product better than your own happy customers.
因此，没有人比您满意的客户更能销售您的产品。
And if I go way back to the very beginning of my career, I worked on a marketing team where I owned demand gen just for net new prospects, and a peer owned demand gen just for existing customer upsell.
如果我回到职业生涯的最开始，我在一个营销团队工作，在该团队中，我拥有仅针对净新潜在客户的需求生成，以及仅针对现有客户追加销售的同行拥有的需求生成。
And we would have different field events.
我们还会举办不同的现场活动。
Carilu Dietrich: And the existing customer ones were smaller than if we'd invited the prospects and had more buzz.
Carilu Dietrich：现有的客户比我们邀请潜在客户要少，而且引起了更多关注。
And the prospect ones were very salesy.
潜在客户非常畅销。
Whereas if we brought them together and you had customers talking to each other and prospects listening, everyone had a better time.
然而，如果我们将他们聚集在一起，让客户互相交谈并让潜在客户倾听，那么每个人都会度过更好的时光。
Carilu Dietrich: So Atlassian, one of our secrets was this amazing user group community where we just paid for beer and a pizza, and we'd facilitate local in-city leaders, and people would meet up and talk about our products, and talk about development generally, and grow their careers and grow their network.
Carilu Dietrich：Atlassian，我们的秘诀之一就是这个令人惊叹的用户组社区，我们只需支付啤酒和披萨的费用，我们就会为当地的城市领导者提供便利，人们会聚在一起谈论我们的产品，谈论总体发展，并发展他们的职业生涯并发展他们的网络。
So I think those are the three.
所以我认为这就是三个。
The right people, the right content, and the right communities.
合适的人、合适的内容和合适的社区。
Lenny: As you were talking, I was reminded, I was just chatting with the founder of Gusto about their journey early on.
Lenny：当你说话的时候，我想起了，我刚刚和 Gusto 的创始人谈论了他们早期的旅程。
And he said that for the first 200 customers, he sat there with them running payroll, watching how they react every step of the payroll process and how they feel at every moment.
他说，对于前 200 名客户，他坐在那儿和他们一起管理工资单，观察他们在工资单流程的每一步中的反应以及他们每时每刻的感受。
And that was a big part of what helped them build the product that people actually continue using, and love, and stick with.
这是帮助他们打造出人们真正继续使用、喜爱和坚持的产品的一个重要部分。
And if it wasn't in person, it was on a phone call.
如果不是当面，也是通过电话。
And it's like the epitome of doing things don't scale, just like for hundreds of new customers watching them use your product.
这就像做事情无法扩展的缩影，就像数百名新客户看着他们使用您的产品一样。
Pretty wild.
相当狂野。
Carilu Dietrich: I mean that's the secret.
Carilu Dietrich：我的意思是这就是秘密。
That's the secret sauce.
这就是秘诀。
And I've heard some early stage startup advisors say that you should build processes that don't scale first.
我听说一些早期创业顾问说，你应该首先构建不可扩展的流程。
Because when you're in the super early stage seed A under 10 million, you've really got to go deep at that stage.
因为当你处于1000万以下的超级早期种子A时，你真的必须在那个阶段深入。
Carilu Dietrich: And in fact, I see that that's one of the problems that companies experience as they get much bigger, when product managers can't meet with customers, or they get limited customers, or maybe they can only meet with a junior user, only the administrator, and not lots of the users.
Carilu Dietrich：事实上，我认为这是公司规模扩大时遇到的问题之一，产品经理无法与客户会面，或者他们获得的客户有限，或者他们只能与初级用户会面，只有管理员，而不是很多用户。
So that insight into the daily struggles and experience of your customers, it's harder to get as you get bigger I think.
因此，我认为，随着规模的扩大，洞察客户的日常困境和体验会变得更加困难。
Lenny: I want to drill into Atlassian.
Lenny：我想深入研究 Atlassian。
You've brought them up a couple times.
你已经提过他们好几次了。
You were at Atlassian for a long time.
您在 Atlassian 工作了很长时间。
You were there from early days of growth to IPO.
从早期发展到首次公开募股，您一直都在。
And one of the most interesting elements of Atlassian and something that comes up a lot on this podcast is product led growth.
Atlassian 最有趣的元素之一，也是这个播客中经常出现的元素，就是产品主导的增长。
Lenny: And Atlassian I think is one of the most classic examples of a product led growth company.
Lenny：我认为 Atlassian 是产品主导型成长型公司最经典的例子之一。
And from what I understand, y'all waited a long time to hire your first salesperson.
据我了解，你们都等了很长时间才聘请第一位销售人员。
So my question is what did you learn from that experience about when is the right time to start leaning into sales and hiring sales, and what are the trade-offs of waiting longer or doing it earlier?
所以我的问题是，您从这次经历中学到了什么，什么时候是开始转向销售和招聘销售人员的最佳时机，以及等待更长时间或更早进行的权衡是什么？
Carilu Dietrich: Atlassian was a super unique company at a super unique point in time, because the founders never took outside money except for one late stage financing to buy out some early employees, to give some liquidity.
Carilu Dietrich：Atlassian 在一个超级独特的时间点是一家超级独特的公司，因为除了一次后期融资来收购一些早期员工以提供一些流动性之外，创始人从未接受过外部资金。
So we never had VCs or private equity that had a voting share that was significant, that could overrule the founders.
因此，我们从来没有风险投资公司或私募股权公司拥有大量投票权，可以否决创始人的决定。
Carilu Dietrich: So the founders were going through this experiment that turned out to be really successful, where they took all the money they would've spent on a sales org and plowed it into engineering and product.
Carilu Dietrich：所以创始人正在进行这个实验，结果证明非常成功，他们把所有花在销售组织上的钱都投入到了工程和产品中。
I'm going to pull up a slide here that tells the Atlassian story about the ratio of the sales and marketing to the product and engineering.
我将在这里拉出一张幻灯片，讲述 Atlassian 关于销售和营销与产品和工程的比例的故事。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
And by the way, check this out on YouTube if you're listening to this and check out this slide.
顺便说一句，如果您正在听此内容，请在 YouTube 上查看并查看这张幻灯片。
Carilu Dietrich: So this is a representative sample of what we did in Atlassian's history, and what ratios still exist today, even several years later.
Carilu Dietrich：这是我们在 Atlassian 历史上所做的事情的代表性样本，以及今天甚至几年后仍然存在的比率。
Where we spend way less on sales and marketing.
我们在销售和营销上的支出要少得多。
Marketing spent less than other marketers.
营销费用比其他营销人员少。
And also we had almost no sales org, or a sales org that was really focused on renewals, or now an assisting sales org that's focused more on enterprise.
而且我们几乎没有销售组织，或者真正专注于续订的销售组织，或者现在更专注于企业的辅助销售组织。
But relative to other companies, a much smaller, much more efficient sales org.
但相对于其他公司，销售组织规模小得多，效率高得多。
And we took all that money and put it into product.
我们把所有的钱都投入到产品中。
So here we're spending two times, three times as many dollars in R&D as many other companies that we'd benchmark against to make a product that really sold itself.
因此，我们在研发上花费的资金是许多其他公司的两倍、三倍，我们将这些公司作为基准来生产真正能够自我推销的产品。
Lenny: It's interesting.
莱尼：这很有趣。
So I'm looking at the slide.
所以我正在看幻灯片。
And again if you're listening, check this on YouTube because it's pretty crazy.
再说一次，如果你正在听，请在 YouTube 上查看这个，因为它非常疯狂。
This slide of bar chart of spend in sales and marketing and R&D, and Atlassian is the very lowest amount of spend in sales and marketing, and the highest spend in product.
这张幻灯片是销售、营销和研发支出的条形图，Atlassian 的销售和营销支出最低，而产品支出最高。
And it's interesting that it's from 2020, so it's not even in the early days.
有趣的是，这是从 2020 年开始的，所以甚至还不是早期。
It's like still today basically.
今天基本上还是这样。
Carilu Dietrich: Right.
卡里卢·迪特里希：对。
I'm going to close this down and keep telling you a little bit more about it.
我要结束这个话题并继续告诉你更多关于它的信息。
There's some unique things that people can take now and incorporate.
人们现在可以采用一些独特的东西并将其融入其中。
So the real strategy in sales, sales is the most expensive vehicle, right?
所以真正的销售策略，是销售最贵的车，对吗？
Expensive people that spend a lot of time.
花费大量时间的昂贵人。
So the Atlassian model was to sell only to people who were already customers really.
因此，Atlassian 的模式是只向已经是真正客户的人销售产品。
If several people or a couple groups had purchased, we'd help them with their renewals.
如果有几个人或几个团体购买了，我们会帮助他们续订。
And now in the later incarnations of our sales orgs at Atlassian, it helps a lot more with larger enterprise companies who need enterprise deals, or does more cross-sell and upsell, but doesn't really do prospecting.
现在，在 Atlassian 销售组织的后期版本中，它对需要企业交易的大型企业公司有更多帮助，或者进行更多的交叉销售和追加销售，但并没有真正进行勘探。
Net new prospecting is a really expensive way to get new customers.
净新勘探是获取新客户的一种非常昂贵的方式。
Carilu Dietrich: So we see different trends coming now with companies, because almost no one can do pure product led growth.
Carilu Dietrich：所以我们看到公司现在出现了不同的趋势，因为几乎没有人能够实现纯粹的产品主导型增长。
Because your investors want to see accelerated growth, and most people believe that adding an SDR or adding an AE will add a predictable amount of revenue.
因为您的投资者希望看到加速增长，并且大多数人认为添加 SDR 或添加 AE 将增加可预测的收入。
And so it's difficult because product led growth and sales have to coexist.
所以这很困难，因为产品主导的增长和销售必须共存。
Carilu Dietrich: But the whole transition in marketing that's happening to account-based marketing and intent-based signals is trying to do some of what we were doing at Atlassian, only to engage salespeople with customers that are actually likely to buy.
Carilu Dietrich：但是，营销领域正在向基于帐户的营销和基于意图的信号转变，我们正在尝试做一些我们在 Atlassian 所做的事情，只是为了让销售人员与实际上可能购买的客户互动。
And if you look at other hyper-growth companies, Airtable, Miro, both of those I know from the inside have had strategies where the salespeople really only engage after some threshold has been hit of number of users that have already been paying for the product on their credit card.
如果你看看其他高速增长的公司，Airtable、Miro，我从内部了解到的这两家公司都制定了策略，销售人员只有在已经使用信用卡支付产品的用户数量达到一定阈值后才会参与进来。
But sometimes it's a high number of 20, 40 people at an account have to be engaged before a salesperson engages.
但有时，在销售人员参与之前，一个客户必须有 20 到 40 个人参与。
Lenny: Based on that, what is it you recommend to founders these days that maybe are product led and just self-service oriented.
Lenny：基于此，您现在向创始人推荐的可能是产品主导型和自助服务导向型产品。
Do you kind of take this experience and wait as long as you can to hire your first salesperson?
您是否会利用这种经验并尽可能长时间地等待雇用您的第一位销售人员？
I know it's very specific to the situation, but what kind of advice do you generally give?
我知道这要根据具体情况而定，但是您通常会给出什么样的建议？
Carilu Dietrich: You and I are both like who was just on your podcast earlier this month.
Carilu Dietrich：你和我就像本月早些时候刚刚在你的播客上一样。
Product led growth depends so much on your product and your buying market.
产品主导的增长很大程度上取决于您的产品和购买市场。
There's some buying markets that are less likely to use salespeople, and you need to go in from the beginning.
有些购买市场不太可能使用销售人员，您需要从一开始就进入。
HR might be one, right?
人力资源部可能就是其中之一，对吗？
Whereas a lot of the hyper-growth companies in the dev tool space can use product led growth because developers both hate failed people, and really love to research themselves.
然而，开发工具领域的许多高速增长公司可以使用产品主导的增长，因为开发人员既讨厌失败的人，又非常喜欢研究自己。
So you see taking off because people engage and kind of self sell.
所以你会看到起飞，因为人们参与并且有点自我推销。
Carilu Dietrich: So I would recommend, get closer to their customers and read the signals.
Carilu Dietrich：所以我建议，靠近客户并阅读信号。
If your product is good enough, the people can get time to value in a couple of days instead of weeks or months.
如果您的产品足够好，人们可以在几天内而不是几周或几个月内获得价值。
You can have a product led growth motion.
你可以有一个以产品为主导的增长动议。
If your product needs to be put in context, and customized, and assisted, sales teams sometimes are expensive services arms to cover over product issues and help customers buy it until it's fixed.
如果您的产品需要结合实际情况进行定制和协助，销售团队有时是昂贵的服务部门，可以解决产品问题并帮助客户购买直到问题得到解决。
Or if you're in a market where your buyer just really doesn't buy online with research and a demo, then you need to have salespeople.
或者，如果您所在的市场中的买家确实不会通过研究和演示在线购买，那么您就需要销售人员。
But I would say try not to hire too fast and too far ahead in sales and inside sales, because it seems like it's going to add revenue, but it actually is a huge cost and a huge drain on the business if the product isn't getting that kind of resonance.
但我想说的是，尽量不要在销售和内部销售方面招聘太快、太超前，因为这看起来会增加收入，但如果产品没有得到这种共鸣，实际上会带来巨大的成本和对业务的巨大消耗。
Lenny: I just had a conversation with the founder of Retool for this series that I'm working on, and he basically found the same thing you found where they thought it could be a product led experience where you're building internal tools using their product, but it turned out nobody really understood how to do it themselves and it took a lot of handholding to make it work.
Lenny：我刚刚与 Retool 的创始人就我正在开发的这个系列进行了交谈，他基本上发现了与你发现的相同的事情，他们认为这可能是一种产品主导的体验，即你使用他们的产品构建内部工具，但事实证明没有人真正理解如何自己做这件事，并且需要大量的指导才能使其发挥作用。
So they became sales led from the beginning, even though it feels like a tool that has a lot of potential to be product led and self-service.
因此，他们从一开始就以销售为主导，尽管它感觉像是一个很有潜力以产品为主导和自助服务的工具。
Carilu Dietrich: I think the other hybrid I'm starting to see is people who turn their SDR, sales development reps, into sales engineers, researchers.
Carilu Dietrich：我认为我开始看到的另一种混合体是那些将 SDR、销售开发代表转变为销售工程师、研究人员的人。
So instead of having a salesperson who's like, "Would you like to have a meeting with another salesperson?" The first touch for customers that are maybe kicking the tires or trying a product led growth is a person who can help guide them on the path.
因此，不要让销售人员问“您想与另一位销售人员会面吗？”对于那些可能正在尝试以产品为主导的增长的客户来说，第一个接触的人就是一个可以帮助引导他们走上这条道路的人。
And I like this hybrid nature because basically it extends product led growth, but helps people in this case where you're talking, where the product itself isn't so intuitive that you can get all the way to the buy itself.
我喜欢这种混合性质，因为基本上它扩展了产品主导的增长，但在你所说的这种情况下帮助人们，产品本身不是那么直观，你可以一路购买本身。
Lenny: It also sounds more fun to talk to a sales engineer than a salesperson.
莱尼：与销售工程师交谈听起来比与销售人员交谈更有趣。
Carilu Dietrich: I know.
卡里卢·迪特里希：我知道。
I always wanted to be a sales engineer.
我一直想成为一名销售工程师。
I was a salesperson, and I crushed on the sales.
我是一名销售员，我对销售很感兴趣。
Engineering team who knew everything and could draw all the architectures.
工程团队无所不知，可以绘制所有架构。
Lenny: Oh wow, I didn't know that.
莱尼：哦，哇，我不知道。
A couple more questions around this stuff.
关于这个东西还有几个问题。
So you've worked with a lot of different companies.
所以你曾与很多不同的公司合作过。
And you kind of come in and help them figure out ways to grow faster, unlock growth opportunities.
你可以进来帮助他们找到更快成长的方法，释放成长机会。
What do you find often gets most in the way of making big changes to the way they approach growth and approach different growth channels?
您发现什么最常阻碍他们对增长方式和不同增长渠道进行重大改变？
And maybe on the flip side, what do you find is most essential to making big changes at a company around how they think about growth?
也许另一方面，您认为要在公司中围绕他们对增长的看法进行重大改变，最重要的是什么？
Carilu Dietrich: The big growth levers are pretty consistent across companies.
Carilu Dietrich：各个公司的巨大增长杠杆非常一致。
You start with one product, and you have a couple choices on how the go-to-market works.
您从一种产品开始，对于上市方式有多种选择。
Product leg growth or sales assisted.
产品腿增长或销售得到协助。
You get a little bit bigger and you add an incremental product, or you start to add new segments.
你变得更大一点，然后添加增量产品，或者开始添加新的细分市场。
You're going to focus on a vertical like finance, or you're going to go global, or you're going to add new sales channels like a partner channel.
您将专注于金融等垂直行业，或者您将走向全球，或者您将添加新的销售渠道（例如合作伙伴渠道）。
Carilu Dietrich: And what I've seen with the big growth levers is that it can't ever be an individual department's goal without being a cross company strategy goal, if it's really going to make a difference.
卡里卢·迪特里希（Carilu Dietrich）：我所看到的巨大的增长杠杆是，如果它真的要产生影响的话，如果没有跨公司的战略目标，它就不可能成为单个部门的目标。
Carilu Dietrich: So you've talked about it in your newsletter and on your podcast, but growth isn't just like a person in the engineering team that hacks by themselves.
Carilu Dietrich：所以你在时事通讯和播客中谈到了这一点，但增长并不只是像工程团队中的一个人自己进行黑客攻击。
It really has to be funded and thoughtfully constructed so that there's the right content and experience, and product features, and virality features a customer to continue to drive growth.
它确实必须得到资助并经过深思熟虑的构建，以便有正确的内容和体验、产品功能以及客户的病毒式传播功能，以继续推动增长。
Carilu Dietrich: And similarly, lots of companies right now are trying to move upmarket because the economy has created so much pressure in S&B that they're going to try to move to enterprise, or they've trying not to sell as much just to tech companies because tech companies are under pressure and so they want to move to different parts.
Carilu Dietrich：同样，现在很多公司都在尝试向高端市场转移，因为经济给 S&B 带来了很大的压力，他们将尝试向企业转移，或者他们试图不向科技公司出售那么多产品，因为科技公司面临压力，所以他们希望转移到不同的领域。
Carilu Dietrich: Sometimes the marketers get blamed or sales gets blamed, we don't have enough leads.
Carilu Dietrich：有时营销人员会受到指责，或者销售人员会受到指责，我们没有足够的线索。
But really it's a company strategy problem where the company hasn't decided, "Hey, we're going to all move in this direction and if we're going to sell the enterprise, marketing's going to bring in leads, products going to have a roadmap, and some meaningful features to enterprise.
但这实际上是一个公司战略问题，公司还没有决定，“嘿，我们都会朝这个方向前进，如果我们要出售企业，营销将带来潜在客户，产品将有路线图，以及一些对企业有意义的功能。
The customer research is going to start thinking about them.
客户研究将开始考虑它们。
We're going to hire some customer support people who know how enterprises work.
我们将聘请一些了解企业运作方式的客户支持人员。
We're going to hire some salespeople who sell differently to enterprises than S&B." The big growth levers are strategy problems, not individual departmental problems.
我们将聘请一些销售人员，他们的销售方式与企业的销售方式与 S&B 不同。”最大的增长杠杆是战略问题，而不是个别部门的问题。
Lenny: And what do you find needs to happen for that to change?
莱尼：你认为需要做什么才能改变这种情况？
Is that like CEO needs to be like, "Here's what we're doing, everyone get on board," or something else?
首席执行官需要这样说：“这就是我们正在做的事情，每个人都参与进来”，或者其他什么？
Carilu Dietrich: I think it can come either way in the C-suite, right?
Carilu Dietrich：我认为在最高管理层中这两种方式都可以，对吧？
So my job, I advise hypergrowth CEOs and CMOs of companies, 30 million to 500 million.
所以我的工作是为高速增长的公司的首席执行官和首席营销官提供建议，规模为 3000 万到 5 亿。
Often if I'm advising a 30 to 100 million company, the more junior marketer with a CEO who's often a first time founder, who doesn't necessarily know if the marketer's good or not.
通常，如果我为一家拥有 30 到 1 亿美元的公司提供咨询，那么初级营销人员的首席执行官通常是首次创始人，他不一定知道营销人员是否优秀。
Hasn't done run marketing before, doesn't know if they should trust what the marketers saying.
以前没有做过营销，不知道是否应该相信营销人员所说的。
Carilu Dietrich: So often the marketer is saying," Hey, we're having problems because the company's not delivering on this promise you want us to sell." And sometimes the CEO doesn't know if they can trust it, a judgment.
Carilu Dietrich：营销人员经常说，“嘿，我们遇到了问题，因为公司没有兑现您希望我们销售的承诺。”有时首席执行官不知道他们是否可以相信这种判断。
And so in that case, someone like me who's an advisor comes in and is like, "That's right, it's not a marketing problem, it's company strategy problem.
所以在这种情况下，像我这样的顾问进来会说，“是的，这不是营销问题，而是公司战略问题。
Let's have an offsite and build some OKRs where we all go after enterprise and we win it together."
让我们在异地建立一些 OKR，我们共同追求企业并共同赢得胜利。”
Carilu Dietrich: You'll see at bigger companies or when a new CMO comes in with more senior or seasoned, they'll have the social capital to push back into the executive suite.
Carilu Dietrich：你会看到在更大的公司，或者当新的首席营销官与更资深或经验丰富的人一起上任时，他们将拥有社会资本来重新进入高管层。
Or a new head of engineering who will say, "Look, I know you want to move ahead faster, but we actually have to catch up on this technical debt." And they'll push back and get that strategic space that they need.
或者一位新的工程主管会说：“听着，我知道你想更快地前进，但我们实际上必须赶上这项技术债务。”他们会反击并获得他们需要的战略空间。
So it can either come from the CEO or it can come from the C-suite really coming together to solve those problems, instead of pushing them under the rug.
因此，它可以来自首席执行官，也可以来自真正齐心协力解决这些问题的最高管理层，而不是把它们隐藏起来。
Lenny: You touched on this nuance that a lot of times, there's not a lot of trust between the marketing head and the CEO.
莱尼：您多次谈到了这个细微差别，营销主管和首席执行官之间没有太多信任。
And I'm curious what you find helps build that trust.
我很好奇你发现什么有助于建立这种信任。
Carilu Dietrich: There's a couple things that are really critical for senior marketers, and I actually have a blog coming up based on a podcast I've recorded about why CMOs mostly get fired.
Carilu Dietrich：有几件事对于高级营销人员来说非常重要，实际上，我根据我录制的一个播客创建了一个博客，讲述为什么首席营销官大多被解雇。
And the issues are generally one, that the CMO isn't focused enough on the revenue.
问题通常是这样的：首席营销官对收入的关注不够。
So some CMOs get focused more on the pipeline or the awareness, and the CEO doesn't feel like they really have a partner in driving the revenue.
因此，一些首席营销官更加关注渠道或意识，而首席执行官并不觉得他们真正有合作伙伴来推动收入。
Or they don't feel like the CMO really has a handle on what will drive the revenue.
或者他们觉得首席营销官并没有真正掌握推动收入的因素。
Carilu Dietrich: So marketing's tough because it's a big spend category, and lots of the spend doesn't convert in quarter.
Carilu Dietrich：所以营销很困难，因为这是一个很大的支出类别，而且很多支出并没有在季度内转化。
Some of it doesn't convert in year.
其中一些在年份中不会转换。
Advertising campaigns, some take multiple quarters.
广告活动，有些需要多个季度。
Carilu Dietrich: So it's really important for CMOs to have a handle on the metrics, a solid prediction of what growth levers they can use, and to be able to talk in the terms of the CEO and the board.
Carilu Dietrich：因此，对于首席营销官来说，掌握指标、准确预测他们可以使用哪些增长杠杆，并能够以首席执行官和董事会的角度进行交谈，这一点非常重要。
Carilu Dietrich: And I think that that's the biggest gap that I generally see.
Carilu Dietrich：我认为这是我通常看到的最大差距。
And then of course, there's a whole bunch of table stake stuff.
当然，还有一大堆赌注的东西。
They have to be running their business well.
他们必须经营好自己的业务。
They have to be a good leader that people want to work for.
他们必须是一个人们愿意为之工作的优秀领导者。
They have to hire a great team that elevates them and the company, they have to be thoughtful and strategic about the market space that the company's in.
他们必须聘请一支优秀的团队来提升他们和公司的水平，他们必须对公司所处的市场空间进行深思熟虑和具有战略意义。
They're not just working the levers in the factory.
他们不只是在工厂里操作杠杆。
They're thinking, "What new markets should we enter?
他们在想：“我们应该进入哪些新市场？
What new growth areas should we employ?" Like we just talked about.
我们应该利用哪些新的增长领域？”就像我们刚才谈到的。
"What new companies should we acquire?" They also need to be thinking ahead.
“我们应该收购哪些新公司？”他们还需要提前思考。
And I think being good on metrics, good on strategy, and good on market helps CMOs spar with CEOs in a way that builds trust.
我认为，善于衡量指标、善于战略和善于市场有助于首席营销官与首席执行官以建立信任的方式进行争论。
Lenny: It's interesting that you say, that blog post you titled Why Most CMOs Get Fired, and it connects with something.
Lenny：你说的很有趣，你的那篇题为“为什么大多数 CMO 被解雇”的博文，它与某些事情有关。
Casey Winters noted, that most CPOs also get fired chief product officers.
Casey Winters 指出，大多数 CPO 也被解雇了首席产品官。
I forget the quote, but it's something like, "The most you can help for is a couple swings at the bat before you get fired as a CPO." Why do you think this is so common for these chief C-suite roles to startups to not work out?
我忘记了这句话，但大概是这样的：“在你作为 CPO 被解雇之前，你最多能帮忙的就是挥动几下球棒。”您认为为什么这些初创公司的首席高管角色不成功是很常见的？
Carilu Dietrich: They're incredibly hard jobs.
Carilu Dietrich：这些工作非常辛苦。
The chief product officer and the chief marketing officer are both strategy jobs with difficult to measure results because some of them are direct and some of them are indirect.
首席产品官和首席营销官都是战略性职位，很难衡量结果，因为有些是直接的，有些是间接的。
And I think both of them get swept up when a company's not performing well too.
我认为当一家公司表现不佳时，他们都会受到影响。
If company's not performing well, you can kind of swap out the head of product, and the next one will be more strategic and deliver faster.
如果公司表现不佳，你可以更换产品负责人，下一个产品负责人将更具战略性，交付速度更快。
Carilu Dietrich: And in fact, I've worked in one of the roles, the CFO was really after my chief product officer, and ultimately got him fired because he wanted to move everything offshore, and develop faster, and he didn't want to re-platform, and he didn't want to deal with the technical debt.
Carilu Dietrich：事实上，我曾担任过其中一个角色，首席财务官实际上是在追随我的首席产品官，最终让他被解雇，因为他想将所有东西转移到海外，并更快地开发，他不想重新平台，也不想处理技术债务。
And the CFO was sure that it was the CPO's fault, and then they got rid of the CPO, and the CFO tried his plan and it didn't work.
CFO 确信这是 CPO 的错，然后他们解雇了 CPO，CFO 尝试了他的计划，但没有成功。
And then you bring someone in who's like, "No, that guy had the right plane."
然后你带一个人进来，他会说：“不，那个人有正确的飞机。”
Carilu Dietrich: So both of them are tough jobs.
Carilu Dietrich：所以这两项工作都很艰巨。
And they require a high bar of excellence, a high connection of trust, and then I think just endurance to keep going and find the next role where you're really a fit and the company really has momentum.
他们需要高标准的卓越表现、高度的信任关系，然后我认为只有耐力才能继续前进，找到下一个真正适合你的职位，而且公司也确实有动力。
Lenny: It also reminds me, I was just talking to, I think it was Canva.
Lenny：这也提醒了我，我刚才正在和 Canva 说话。
Where their first engineering hire is now their CTO still, and their first marketing hire is their CMO still.
他们的第一个工程聘用人员现在仍然是他们的首席技术官，而他们的第一个营销聘用人员仍然是他们的首席营销官。
So it does work out on occasion.
所以它有时确实有效。
Carilu Dietrich: It works out on occasion.
Carilu Dietrich：有时会有效。
And in fact, I've been playing around with a 10 part series about those CMOs in the CMO world, because there's about 10 to 15 CMOs who have started when it's really small and grown all the way.
事实上，我一直在研究关于 CMO 世界中这些 CMO 的 10 部分系列，因为大约有 10 到 15 个 CMO 在公司很小的时候就开始并一路成长。
And they're the ones we really want to learn from.
他们是我们真正想向他们学习的人。
And I know a lot of them and really admire their work, and have learned so much.
我认识他们中的很多人，非常钦佩他们的工作，并且学到了很多东西。
Lenny: You should absolutely do that.
莱尼：你绝对应该这么做。
That sounds very cool.
听起来很酷。
You talked about how you work with companies from 30 million to 500 million.
您谈到了如何与拥有 3000 万到 5 亿人口的公司合作。
What is it about that stage that's unique, and what happens after 500 million, and what's the difference before say 30 million?
那个阶段有什么独特之处，5亿之后会发生什么，3000万之前有什么区别？
I know it's not an exact number, but how do you think about that range?
我知道这不是一个确切的数字，但您如何看待这个范围？
Carilu Dietrich: No, it's not an exact number.
Carilu Dietrich：不，这不是一个确切的数字。
My bottom number is because there's this early stage of product market fit where the founder and the company are trying to figure out who their real ideal customer profile is, and can they sell to them consistently?
我的底部数字是因为在产品市场契合的早期阶段，创始人和公司正在试图找出他们真正理想的客户群是谁，以及他们能否持续向他们销售产品？
Carilu Dietrich: So I've worked for some early stage startups where we've tried lots of different things, but they're not repeatable.
Carilu Dietrich：所以我曾在一些早期初创公司工作过，我们尝试了很多不同的事情，但它们是不可重复的。
You can't scale it.
你无法扩展它。
"This product works for this.
“这个产品适用于此。
This product works for this too and it works for this," but those are all kind of unique cases studies.
这个产品也适用于这个，它也适用于这个，”但这些都是独特的案例研究。
And so my skill is in helping people scale.
所以我的技能是帮助人们扩大规模。
Carilu Dietrich: And so if they've already found product market fit and they've gotten some funding or they're bootstrapped, but have enough funding to really be trying to build out marketing in a marketing team, that's when I know what each stage looks like.
Carilu Dietrich：因此，如果他们已经找到了适合市场的产品，并且已经获得了一些资金，或者他们已经自力更生，但有足够的资金来真正尝试在营销团队中建立营销，那么我就知道每个阶段是什么样的。
So I know what $30 million great teams look like, and 50 million, and 100, and 150 million, 200 million.
所以我知道3000万美元的伟大团队是什么样子，5000万美元、100美元、1.5亿美元、2亿美元的伟大团队是什么样子。
My ride at Atlassian was from about 100 to 500.
我在 Atlassian 的骑行次数约为 100 至 500 次。
Carilu Dietrich: And then over 500, the act of going public, being an early stage public company, I know what that all looks like.
Carilu Dietrich：然后是超过 500 家上市行为，成为一家早期上市公司，我知道这一切是什么样子。
And then beyond that, there's public company consultants I think more, that do more specific things.
除此之外，我认为还有更多的上市公司顾问，他们做更具体的事情。
I more help the CMO and CEO structure for the next stage of growth, because they're going through it so fast, they haven't hired someone yet who's already seen.
我更多地帮助首席营销官和首席执行官构建下一阶段的增长，因为他们的发展速度如此之快，他们还没有聘请已经见过的人。
Lenny: Got it.
莱尼：明白了。
One very nuanced question I want to ask you is about bundling.
我想问您一个非常微妙的问题是关于捆绑的。
So there's HipChat and Slack kind of ate their lunch, not necessarily through bundling, but there's Slack.
HipChat 和 Slack 吃了他们的午餐，不一定是通过捆绑，但有 Slack。
And then Slack, I don't know if it's true, but it feels like Microsoft Teams is eating their lunch with bundling.
然后是 Slack，我不知道这是不是真的，但感觉 Microsoft Teams 正在通过捆绑来吃午餐。
And I'm curious, what do you think of bundling as a strategy to win long-term?
我很好奇，您如何看待捆绑作为赢得长期胜利的策略？
And also, how do you compete against say, a Microsoft that may one day bundle your product for free, and you might be in big trouble?
而且，你如何与微软竞争，比如有一天，微软可能免费捆绑你的产品，你可能会遇到大麻烦？
Carilu Dietrich: I think it's two separate questions, so let me take them separately.
卡里卢·迪特里希：我认为这是两个不同的问题，所以让我分开来回答。
The first is, what do I think about bundling?
首先，我对捆绑有何看法？
So small and medium-sized companies will go from being a single product company to a multi-product company in order to progress.
所以中小企业要从单一产品的公司向多产品的公司发展才能进步。
Because you need a diversified financial model, because you need to be able to sell new products into your customer base who should already be friendly to you if they like your products.
因为你需要多元化的财务模式，因为你需要能够向你的客户群销售新产品，如果他们喜欢你的产品，他们应该已经对你很友好。
And because you need to really expand your total addressable market to get to be $1 billion or $2 billion company.
因为你需要真正扩大你的总目标市场，成为价值 10 亿或 20 亿美元的公司。
But I believe in bundling is a growth strategy.
但我相信捆绑是一种增长策略。
Carilu Dietrich: Specifically for product led growth companies, bundling is not a great land strategy.
Carilu Dietrich：特别对于以产品为主导的成长型公司来说，捆绑并不是一个很好的策略。
So at Atlassian, we had a number of products and experimented with different bundled lands.
因此，在 Atlassian，我们拥有多种产品，并尝试了不同的捆绑土地。
And it really slowed down the product led growth motion.
它确实减缓了产品主导的增长势头。
So we ended up going back to land with a single product, high velocity, single person uses it quickly starts to get value, and then come in with other things.
所以我们最终回到了单一产品，高速度，单人使用它很快开始获得价值，然后进来其他东西。
Carilu Dietrich: So from that perspective, product led growth bundling is not very effective.
Carilu Dietrich：从这个角度来看，以产品为主导的增长捆绑并不是很有效。
Bundling for a sales led motion is pretty effective when you're at the right stage of growth.
当您处于正确的增长阶段时，捆绑以销售为主导的动议非常有效。
Carilu Dietrich: And then as far as the question of competing against Microsoft, there's these two parts of the philosophies.
Carilu Dietrich：至于与微软竞争的问题，有这两部分的哲学。
A best of breed and an all in one.
同类最佳且多合一。
An Oracle was an all in one, and Microsoft is an all in one.
Oracle 是一个多合一的产品，而 Microsoft 是一个多合一的产品。
You can buy all the things and your CFO can get a discount by spending a whole bunch of money on a bunch of things.
你可以购买所有的东西，而你的首席财务官可以通过花一大笔钱买一堆东西来获得折扣。
But in the all-in one, some of the pieces aren't as good as the best of breed.
但总的来说，有些作品并不像最好的作品那么好。
Carilu Dietrich: And so Slack for a long time was the best of breed.
Carilu Dietrich：因此，在很长一段时间里，Slack 都是最好的。
People were willing to pay more because they thought it was markedly better than the other instant messaging options.
人们愿意支付更多费用，因为他们认为这明显优于其他即时通讯选项。
Carilu Dietrich: But there's shifts between best of breed and all in one in economic wins.
Carilu Dietrich：但是在经济胜利方面，最佳品种和一体化之间存在转变。
So right now, CFOs are putting the squeeze.
所以现在，首席财务官们正在施加压力。
Is Slack really that much better than Microsoft if the Microsoft one is free with all of our other purchases?
如果 Microsoft 的 Slack 与我们购买的所有其他产品都是免费的，那么 Slack 真的比 Microsoft 好得多吗？
It's tough.
它太硬。
It's tough to go head-to-head with a powerful, big investing, all-in-one competitor.
与一个强大的、投资大的、一体化的竞争对手正面交锋是很困难的。
The only way to win is to be the best and have a product that's so much better, that it's worth the extra money.
获胜的唯一方法就是成为最好的，并拥有更好的产品，值得花额外的钱。
Lenny: Interesting.
莱尼：有趣。
So essentially in a tough environment, bundling is most effective almost.
因此，本质上在恶劣的环境中，捆绑几乎是最有效的。
And then this other interesting point about , you want to stay focused on one specific pain point.
然后，另一个有趣的点是，你想要专注于一个特定的痛点。
What is it that Atlassian tried to do that they tried to pitch all your planning products in one suite?
Atlassian 试图将您的所有规划产品整合到一个套件中，他们到底想做什么？
Is that kind of what we-
这就是我们——
Carilu Dietrich: Well, Jira was the issue tracking.
Carilu Dietrich：嗯，Jira 负责跟踪问题。
And then we also had Confluence, which was the Wiki page.
然后我们还有 Confluence，这是 Wiki 页面。
So let's say there was a business bundle that could have been HipChat, Confluence and Jira.
假设有一个业务包可能是 HipChat、Confluence 和 Jira。
Or there were developer combinations that could have been Jira, Bitbucket, and maybe Confluence too for an engineering team.
或者对于工程团队来说，开发人员组合可能是 Jira、Bitbucket，也可能是 Confluence。
Carilu Dietrich: Basically, if you have to evaluate multiple products to purchase something, it's not a fast and easy online self-service buy.
Carilu Dietrich：基本上，如果您必须评估多种产品才能购买某样东西，那么这不是快速、轻松的在线自助购买。
Because you're like, "Do I need all three products?
因为你会想，“我需要这三种产品吗？
Can I break them apart?
我可以把它们分开吗？
Do they all work?
它们都有效吗？
Are each of them best of breed?" Whereas if you're like, "I need issue tracking, I'm going to buy Jira, this looks good.
他们每个人都是最优秀的吗？”然而，如果您想，“我需要问题跟踪，我要购买 Jira，这看起来不错。
I've tried it out, I'm ready to go." That can happen in seven days.
我已经尝试过了，我准备出发了。”这可能会在 7 天内发生。
Whereas if you add in multiple products, it takes more days and just leads to fewer conversions.
然而，如果您添加多种产品，则需要更多天的时间，并且只会导致转化次数减少。
Lenny: That makes absolute sense.
莱尼：这绝对有道理。
I can see someone thinking the complete opposite and then now realizing how we see.
我可以看到有人的想法完全相反，然后现在意识到我们是如何看待的。
I see why this isn't working.
我明白为什么这不起作用。
Carilu Dietrich: You should always test it.
Carilu Dietrich：你应该经常测试它。
Right?
正确的？
I mean, the secret to product led growth is can you test it?
我的意思是，产品带动增长的秘诀是你能测试一下吗？
And so we tested everything.
所以我们测试了一切。
We tried bundles.
我们尝试了捆绑。
We didn't try bundles.
我们没有尝试捆绑。
We tried different things in the bundles.
我们在捆绑包中尝试了不同的东西。
We tried different days.
我们尝试了不同的日子。
Data led insights are better than anything any pundits would say on a podcast.
以数据为主导的见解比任何专家在播客上所说的任何内容都要好。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
Well with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
好了，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny: Okay.
莱尼：好的。
What are two or three books that you recommended most to other people?
您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？
Carilu Dietrich: The number one book is a life book called Tao Te Ching, the Stephen Mitchell translation.
Carilu Dietrich：排名第一的书是一本名为《道德经》的人生书，由斯蒂芬·米切尔翻译。
And the Tao Te Ching is a philosophy about the flow of life.
《道德经》是关于生命之流的哲学。
And I love it.
我喜欢它。
I've carried the Pocket Guide with me for 25 years.
我随身携带这本袖珍指南已经 25 年了。
Carilu Dietrich: The second one is business focused.
Carilu Dietrich：第二个是商业重点。
Never Split the Difference, which is a great book about negotiating written by a former CIA hostage negotiator, which also helps me with negotiations at work and with my children.
《永远不要分歧》是一本关于谈判的好书，作者是一位前中央情报局人质谈判代表，它也对我在工作中和与孩子们的谈判有帮助。
So that's a great book.
所以这是一本很棒的书。
Lenny: Actually, I've been trying to read that book on audio.
莱尼：事实上，我一直在尝试阅读那本书的音频。
What's something you've taken away from me?
你从我这里夺走了什么东西？
Because the stories are so interesting and I'm always like, "What should I actually do in my day-to-day life?" What stuck with you?
因为这些故事非常有趣，我总是想，“我在日常生活中实际上应该做什么？”是什么困扰着你？
Carilu Dietrich: It's kind of the obvious thing that I wasn't good at.
Carilu Dietrich：这是我不擅长的明显事情。
It's that you just really want to put yourself so deeply in the shoes of the other person, that you can figure out what make the win for both of you, right?
而是你真的很想设身处地为对方着想，这样你就能弄清楚是什么让你们双方都取得了胜利，对吗？
Basically he says, "You can't win the negotiation by strong arming what you want.
基本上他说的是，“你无法通过强力武装你想要的东西来赢得谈判。
You really get to get to a win-win," which is probably every negotiation book ever.
你真的能够实现双赢”，这可能是所有谈判书籍中的内容。
But he texturizes it so much.
但他把它赋予了如此多的质感。
So I just felt like I was really able to...
所以我只是觉得我真的能够...
In my last office, we moved last year.
我的最后一个办公室是去年搬家的。
I actually had the CliffNotes of his book printed out and posted on my wall because he had a series of questions to help you get deeper and deeper into the mindset behind people.
事实上，我把他的书的 CliffNotes 打印出来并贴在我的墙上，因为他提出了一系列问题来帮助你越来越深入地了解人们背后的思维方式。
Carilu Dietrich: And connected, but not connected the book How To Win Friends and Influence People, that's the 1932 bestseller, is basically that.
Carilu Dietrich：1932 年的畅销书《如何赢得朋友和影响他人》这本书基本上就是这样，但又没有联系。
People don't want to hear about you.
人们不想听到你的事。
They want you to be thinking about them.
他们希望你为他们着想。
And then you can make friends with them, or you can negotiate with them, or you can get your hostage back.
然后你可以和他们交朋友，或者你可以与他们谈判，或者你可以拿回你的人质。
Lenny: I read How to Win Friends and Influence People when I was very young.
莱尼：我很小的时候就读过《如何赢得朋友和影响别人》。
And specifically, the chapters about there's no better sound in the world to someone than their name.
具体来说，这些章节讲述了对某人来说，世界上没有比他们的名字更好的声音了。
Carilu.
卡里卢。
Carilu Dietrich: It's true.
卡里卢·迪特里希：确实如此。
Thank you.
谢谢。
You said it correctly.
你说得对。
Lenny: Okay, moving on.
莱尼：好的，继续。
Favorite recent movie or TV show?
最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目？
Carilu Dietrich: My favorite movie is Everything Everywhere All at Once.
卡里卢·迪特里希：我最喜欢的电影是《一切都在同时》。
It's basically a sci-fi about all the different ways your life could turn out if you made different choices.
这基本上是一部科幻小说，讲述的是如果你做出不同的选择，你的生活可能会发生什么样的变化。
And it was really a mind bender that made me think about all the different ways tiny decisions have changed my life, but then also an appreciation for the life that you have.
这真的是一个令人费解的事情，它让我思考微小的决定改变我生活的所有不同方式，但同时也让我对你所拥有的生活产生感激之情。
At the end, it doesn't ruin the story, but she has this love of what she has, even though it's not as good or as different as some of the other options.
最后，它并没有破坏故事，但她对自己所拥有的东西有这种热爱，尽管它不如其他一些选择那么好或那么不同。
Carilu Dietrich: So I bought this poster.
Carilu Dietrich：所以我买了这张海报。
I don't think you can see it on the bath, but it says, "Gratitude turns what we have into enough."
我认为你在洗澡时看不到它，但它说：“感恩让我们拥有的一切变得足够。”
Carilu Dietrich: I like it.
卡里卢·迪特里希：我喜欢。
Read the Tao Te Ching.
读《道德经》。
Lenny: Not a Post-it, but art.
莱尼：不是便利贴，而是艺术品。
Another teaching from Carilu.
卡里卢的另一个教导。
I think this needs to be a second newsletter of yours.
我认为这需要成为您的第二份时事通讯。
Life advice.
生活建议。
Carilu Dietrich: Which is funny.
卡里卢·迪特里希：这很有趣。
I've been thinking about that one.
我一直在想那个。
It would be called The Tao of Hypergrowth.
这将被称为“超增长之道”。
Carilu Dietrich: And actually, I was thinking about doing it and taking actual clips from the Tao Te Ching, and doing textural analysis about how it applies to our.
Carilu Dietrich：实际上，我正在考虑这样做，并从《道德经》中获取实际片段，并对其如何应用于我们的内容进行文本分析。
I've been thinking about this actual podcast for a while because I used to want to do the...
我已经考虑这个实际的播客有一段时间了，因为我曾经想做......
I mean blog, the Tao of Parenthood.
我指的是博客，即为人父母之道。
Because basically parenting, you try to control and fix all the things you didn't do right in your life.
因为从根本上来说，养育孩子就是要尝试控制和解决生活中所有没有做对的事情。
But actually, it's the act of providing freedom that lets them go out and explore and then come back to your way of being.
但实际上，正是提供自由的行为让他们出去探索，然后回到你的生活方式。
So, I don't know.
所以，我不知道。
The Tao Te Ching, I love it.
《道德经》，我喜欢。
Lenny: I see so many opportunities.
莱尼：我看到了很多机会。
You got to stop what you're doing.
你必须停止你正在做的事情。
Just write all these things.
只需写下所有这些内容即可。
Carilu Dietrich: I know.
卡里卢·迪特里希：我知道。
But I love the hypergrowth customers, clients.
但我喜欢高速增长的客户。
Lenny: All right.
莱尼：好吧。
Next question.
下一个问题。
What is a favorite interview question that you like to ask?
您最喜欢问的面试问题是什么？
Carilu Dietrich: So this is a little heavy, but it actually is my favorite.
Carilu Dietrich：所以这有点重，但实际上是我最喜欢的。
It's, "How many people have you fired?
问题是“你解雇了多少人？
And tell me about each of the experiences." So the reason I ask this question is because generally, I'm managing teams of managers.
并告诉我每一次的经历。”所以我问这个问题的原因是因为一般来说，我管理的是经理团队。
And generally, I need people who have managed many people for a longer period of time.
一般来说，我需要那些在较长时间内管理过很多人的人。
Or even if they're junior managers, how long and how many people they've managed is indicated by how many people they've fired.
或者，即使他们是初级管理者，他们管理的时间和人数也可以通过他们解雇的人数来衡量。
Because if you've never fired anyone, then you haven't managed very many people for very long, unfortunately.
因为如果你从未解雇过任何人，那么不幸的是，你管理很多人的时间并不长。
Carilu Dietrich: And firing people is the hardest part of a leader's career.
Carilu Dietrich：解雇员工是领导者职业生涯中最困难的部分。
So how they talk about it, their compassion, and their need to drive the business, and the circumstances, "Was it layoffs?
那么他们如何谈论这个问题，他们的同情心，他们推动业务的需要，以及当时的情况，“是裁员吗？
How did that work?
那是如何运作的？
Did you have to performance manage someone out?
你是否必须对某人进行绩效管理？
How did it work?
效果如何？
Did you just have to restructure the team because of business goals?
您是否只是因为业务目标而不得不重组团队？
How did it work?" Gives you a lot of insight into their experience and their humanity in a way that they're not prepared for.
效果如何？”让您以一种他们没有准备好的方式深入了解他们的经历和人性。
So you really get the real story, and get a sense for what they would be like as a leader under a lot of pressure and difficult situations.
这样你就能真正了解真实的故事，并了解他们作为领导者在巨大的压力和困难的情况下会是什么样子。
Lenny: I've never heard that one before and I love it.
莱尼：我以前从没听过这个，但我很喜欢。
Reminds me of a episode with Matt Mochary where we talk about how to lay people off really successfully and elegantly.
让我想起马特·莫卡里 (Matt Mochary) 的一集，我们谈论如何真正成功而优雅地解雇员工。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
Next question.
下一个问题。
What's a favorite product that you've recently discovered that you love?
您最近发现自己喜欢的最喜欢的产品是什么？
Carilu Dietrich: So I follow my favorite products to the companies that I advise.
Carilu Dietrich：所以我会根据我最喜欢的产品向我建议的公司提供建议。
I love 1Password.
我喜欢 1Password。
I've got my 85-year-old grandfather and all of my family and friends set up on it.
我已经让我 85 岁的祖父以及我所有的家人和朋友都参与其中。
I love the cross-platform nature.
我喜欢跨平台的特性。
Carilu Dietrich: I love Miro and whiteboards.
Carilu Dietrich：我喜欢 Miro 和白板。
I joined Productboard because of this cross-company alignment and views into what's coming up on the roadmap, which is really the most important thing for the company.
我加入 Productboard 是因为这种跨公司的协调以及对路线图上即将发生的事情的看法，这对公司来说确实是最重要的事情。
Momentum, as we talked about, having a great product and a great product strategy.
正如我们所说，动力是拥有出色的产品和出色的产品策略。
Carilu Dietrich: And then I'm dabbling in all the AI things.
Carilu Dietrich：然后我开始涉足所有人工智能领域。
I want to be excellent in AI visualization and art.
我想在人工智能可视化和艺术方面表现出色。
I'm experimenting with Midjourney, but still kind of flailing.
我正在尝试 Midjourney，但仍然有点不稳定。
I've hired my 13-year old as my strategic advisor.
我聘请了 13 岁的孩子作为我的战略顾问。
And yeah, I'd love to work for OpenAI and ChatGPT.
是的，我很乐意为 OpenAI 和 ChatGPT 工作。
It's really interesting.
这真的很有趣。
Lenny: What's something relatively minor that you've changed in the way a product is built or just the company operates, that has led to tremendous impact on their ability to execute?
Lenny：您对产品的构建方式或公司的运营方式进行了哪些相对较小的改变，但却对他们的执行能力产生了巨大影响？
Carilu Dietrich: On the product side, one of the concepts that I really like is the Amazon concept around writing the press release at the beginning of a product ideation.
Carilu Dietrich：在产品方面，我真正喜欢的概念之一是亚马逊在产品构思之初撰写新闻稿的概念。
So one of the issues between marketing and product is the product will work so hard on something, and there'll be lots of different features, that it won't really be a theme that the marketing team can talk about.
因此，营销和产品之间的问题之一是，产品会在某些方面付出很大的努力，并且会有很多不同的功能，因此它不会真正成为营销团队可以谈论的主题。
And then someone hands it to marketing and says, "Make this marketable." One of my mentors had this comment, "It's a bag of doorknobs." What do I do with this bag of doorknobs?
然后有人把它交给营销部门并说：“让这个有销路。”我的一位导师评论道：“这是一袋门把手。”我该如何处理这袋门把手？
Who wants to buy a bag of doorknobs?
谁想买一袋门把手？
They want to buy the door and the concept.
他们想购买门和概念。
Carilu Dietrich: So I like this idea of writing a press release.
Carilu Dietrich：所以我喜欢撰写新闻稿的想法。
Start with the end in mind, and then negotiate.
从结果开始，然后进行谈判。
Is this good enough?
这够好吗？
Will this really resonate?
这真的会引起共鸣吗？
Or is this really what we're trying to build?
或者这真的是我们想要构建的吗？
Or is this really the outcome we're trying to get with the product?
或者这真的是我们想要通过产品获得的结果吗？
So I've heard about Amazon do it.
所以我听说亚马逊这样做了。
We experimented with it at Classy.
我们在 Classy 进行了实验。
I haven't done it at mass scale, but I love the concept.
我还没有大规模做过，但我喜欢这个概念。
Lenny: Final question.
莱尼：最后一个问题。
I know you're a meditator.
我知道你是一个冥想者。
We've talked a little bit about your Buddhist nature.
我们已经讨论过一些关于你的佛教本性。
What's one tip for people that have been trying to meditate and just can't make it happen?
对于那些一直试图冥想却无法实现的人来说，有什么建议呢？
What's your one tip for helping people meditate more often?
对于帮助人们更频繁地冥想，您有什么建议？
Carilu Dietrich: So I'm a cheater because I was groomed to meditate.
Carilu Dietrich：所以我是一个骗子，因为我被训练去冥想。
I don't remember how early, but I remember that the first meditations my mom had me listen to was a rainbow butterfly as I fell asleep when I was in kindergarten.
我不记得有多早，但我记得我上幼儿园时，妈妈让我听的第一个冥想是彩虹蝴蝶。
Carilu Dietrich: So I've been meditating my whole life, with mixed success.
Carilu Dietrich：所以我一生都在冥想，但取得了不同程度的成功。
And the real secret is just that there's no right way, that there's no wrong way.
真正的秘密在于，没有正确的方法，也没有错误的方法。
That it's just making the time to be present, and breathe, and sense, and be here now.
这只是腾出时间来存在，呼吸，感受，现在就在这里。
Carilu Dietrich: And so I use guided meditations mostly, because I'm not the best at quieting my own mind.
Carilu Dietrich：所以我主要使用引导式冥想，因为我不太擅长让自己的心灵安静下来。
I'm thrifty.
我很节俭。
So I use some free meditations.
所以我使用一些免费的冥想。
I use Tara Brach, who's a great meditator, who has short and long concept meditations.
我使用塔拉·布拉赫（Tara Brach），她是一位伟大的冥想者，她有短期和长期的概念冥想。
Carilu Dietrich: And I like this old one called Meditation Oasis, which actually isn't in publishing anymore, but it's still a podcast.
Carilu Dietrich：我喜欢这个名为“冥想绿洲”的旧播客，它实际上不再出版了，但它仍然是一个播客。
And I re-listen to all theirs over and over.
我一遍又一遍地重新听他们的所有内容。
So stick with it is the secret to meditation, and any benefits you get from being present in meditation, hopefully carry over to be being present in life.
因此，坚持下去是冥想的秘诀，并且您从冥想中获得的任何好处都希望能够延续到生活中。
Lenny: My whole body just relaxed as you were talking through all that.
莱尼：当你讲完这一切时，我的整个身体都放松了。
So you have a skill.
所以你有一技之长。
Carilu, this was amazing.
卡里卢，这太棒了。
We learned how to grow products, how to live better lives, how to become more mindful.
我们学会了如何种植产品，如何过上更好的生活，如何变得更加专注。
Two final questions.
最后两个问题。
Where can folks find you online if they want to learn more, reach out?
如果人们想了解更多信息并联系您，可以在哪里找到您？
And/or how can listeners be useful to you?
和/或听众如何对你有用？
Carilu Dietrich: Follow me on LinkedIn, or I have a new blog carilu.com on Substack.
Carilu Dietrich：在 LinkedIn 上关注我，或者我在 Substack 上有一个新博客 carilu.com。
Thanks to Lenny for the inspiration.
感谢莱尼的灵感。
And I still have one more advisory slot open, and I'd love to work with more AI companies.
我还有一个顾问职位空缺，我很乐意与更多的人工智能公司合作。
I just joined Weights & Biases in the ML op space.
我刚刚加入了 ML 操作空间中的权重和偏差。
But if you know of other great scale up AI companies, I'd love to help junior marketing executives or first time founders see what the next stage of growth looks like and get there.
但如果你知道其他大型人工智能公司，我很乐意帮助初级营销主管或首次创始人了解下一阶段的增长是什么样子并实现这一目标。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
And again, if they are interested in that, how do they reach out to you?
再说一次，如果他们对此感兴趣，他们如何联系你？
Carilu Dietrich: On LinkedIn or through carilu.com.
Carilu Dietrich：在 LinkedIn 上或通过 carilu.com。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
Carilu, thank you again so much for making time and for being here.
Carilu，再次非常感谢您抽出时间来到这里。
Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.
莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。