How Notion leveraged community to build a $10B business | Camille Ricketts
Camille Ricketts: The way that you think about product market fit, you have to think about content market fit.
Camille Ricketts：在考虑产品市场契合度的同时，你也必须考虑内容市场契合度。
So even though content feels like it's running adjacent to the actual product that you're putting out there, you still have to think about who is my audience?
因此，即使内容感觉与您发布的实际产品相邻，您仍然需要考虑谁是我的受众？
Who is the audience that I really want to have?
谁是我真正想要的观众？
Who is the audience that is going to be drawn to this most?
谁是最能吸引观众的观众？
Who are they?
他们是谁？
What is it that they really need in their lives?
他们生活中真正需要的是什么？
Even abstracting content from it at all.
甚至从其中提取内容。
What is it that they need to get promoted?
他们需要晋升的是什么？
What is it that they need to avoid failure?
他们需要什么来避免失败？
What is it that causes them a great deal of anxiety in the day-to-day of their lives or their work?
是什么让他们在日常生活或工作中感到极大的焦虑？
And can you create some type of content product that is going to address this for them?
您能否创建某种类型的内容产品来为他们解决这个问题？
Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's podcast.
莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客。
I'm Lenny and my goal here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products.
我是莱尼，我的目标是帮助您更好地构建和种植产品。
I interview world class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard won experiences building and growing today's most successful companies.
我采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，从他们建立和发展当今最成功的公司的来之不易的经验中学习。
Today my guest is Camille Ricketts.
今天我的客人是卡米尔·里基茨。
Camille was the first marketing hire at Notion and longtime head of marketing at Notion.
卡米尔是 Notion 的第一位营销人员，也是 Notion 的长期营销主管。
Prior to that, she was head of content and marketing at First Round Capital, where amongst many other things, she launched the First Round Review, which holds a very special place in my heart because a guest post in the First Round Review essentially helped me launch my now career of newsletter and now podcast.
在此之前，她是 First Round Capital 的内容和营销主管，除其他事项外，她还推出了 First Round Review，这在我心中占有非常特殊的位置，因为 First Round Review 中的一篇客座文章基本上帮助我启动了我现在的新闻通讯和播客职业生涯。
Camille also did content marketing at Kiva and also comms and PR at early Tesla where she sat right next to Elon Musk for about a year and she shares some really fun stories about that.
卡米尔还在 Kiva 做过内容营销，还在早期的特斯拉做过通讯和公关，她在埃隆·马斯克旁边坐了大约一年，并分享了一些非常有趣的故事。
Lenny: In this episode, we focus on two areas that Camille was very early in and has tremendous insights around.
莱尼：在这一集中，我们重点关注卡米尔很早就涉足的两个领域，并且对此有着深刻的见解。
One, community led growth.
第一，社区引领增长。
What it actually is, when it's something you should invest in, how to do it well.
它实际上是什么，什么时候你应该投资，如何做好。
All based on her experience building Notion's early community, which was a huge part of Notion's early success.
所有这些都基于她构建 Notion 早期社区的经验，这是 Notion 早期成功的重要组成部分。
We also talk about content marketing.
我们还谈论内容营销。
When it's worth investing in, how to do it well, and all kinds of tips for building a content marketing machine.
什么时候值得投资，如何做好，以及构建内容营销机器的各种技巧。
It was a total blast chatting with Camille and I am really excited for you to learn from her.
与卡米尔聊天真是太棒了，我很高兴你能向她学习。
With that, I bring you Camille Rickets right after we hear a word from our wonderful sponsors.
在我们听到我们出色的赞助商的消息后，我立即为您带来了卡米尔·立克茨 (Camille Rickets)。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Eppo.
Lenny：这一集是 Eppo 为您带来的。
Eppo is a next generation AB testing platform built by ar Airbnb alums for modern growth teams.
Eppo 是由 ar Airbnb 校友为现代增长团队打造的下一代 AB 测试平台。
Companies like Netlify, Contentful, and Cameo rely on Eppo to power their experiments.
Netlify、Contentful 和 Cameo 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。
Wherever you work, running experiments is increasingly essential, but there are no commercial tools that integrate with a modern grow team stack.
无论您在哪里工作，运行实验都变得越来越重要，但是没有可以与现代种植团队堆栈集成的商业工具。
This leads to wasted time building internal tools or trying to run your experiments through a clunky marketing tool.
这会导致浪费时间构建内部工具或尝试通过笨重的营销工具进行实验。
When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved about our experimentation platform was being able to easily slice results by device, by country, and by user stage.
当我在 Airbnb 工作时，我喜欢我们的实验平台的一件事是能够轻松地按设备、国家和用户阶段划分结果。
EPO does all that and more.
欧洲专利局可以做到这一切，甚至更多。
Delivering results quickly, avoiding annoying prolonged analytics cycles, and helping you easily get to the root cause of any issue you discover.
快速提供结果，避免恼人的长时间分析周期，并帮助您轻松找到所发现问题的根本原因。
Eppo lets you go beyond basic clickthrough metrics, and instead you to North Star metrics like activation, retention, subscriptions and payments.
Eppo 可以让您超越基本的点击率指标，而是了解激活、保留、订阅和付款等北极星指标。
And EPO supports tests on the front end, the back end, email marketing, and even machine learning clients.
EPO 支持前端、后端、电子邮件营销、甚至机器学习客户端的测试。
Check out Eppo, geteppo.com, get E-P-P-O.com and 10X your experiment velocity.
查看 Eppo、geteppo.com、获取 E-P-P-O.com 和 10 倍的实验速度。
Hey, Ashley, head of marketing at Flatfile.
嘿，Ashley，Flatfile 的营销主管。
How many B2B SaaS companies would you estimate need to import CSV files from their customers?
您估计有多少家 B2B SaaS 公司需要从其客户导入 CSV 文件？
Lenny: And how many of them screw that up and what happens when they do?
莱尼：有多少人把事情搞砸了？当他们这样做时会发生什么？
Ashley: Well, based on our data, about a third of people will consider switching to another company after just one bad experience during onboarding.
阿什利：嗯，根据我们的数据，大约三分之一的人在入职期间经历过一次糟糕的经历后就会考虑跳槽到另一家公司。
So if your CSV importer doesn't work right, which is super common considering customer files are chock full of unexpected data and formatting, they'll leave.
因此，如果您的 CSV 导入器无法正常工作（考虑到客户文件中充满了意外数据和格式，这种情况非常常见），他们就会离开。
Lenny: I am 0% surprised to hear that.
Lenny：听到这个消息我感到 0% 惊讶。
I've consistently seen that improving onboarding is one of the highest leverage opportunities for both signup conversion and increasing long-term retention.
我一直认为，改善入职是注册转化和提高长期保留的最高杠杆机会之一。
Getting people to your aha moment more quickly and reliably is so incredibly important.
让人们更快、更可靠地进入顿悟时刻非常重要。
Ashley: Totally.
阿什利：完全可以。
It's incredible to see how our customers like Square, Spotify and Zuora are able to grow their businesses on top of Flatfile.
看到 Square、Spotify 和 Zuora 等客户如何能够在 Flatfile 上发展业务，真是令人难以置信。
It's because flawless data onboarding acts like a catalyst to get them and their customers where they need to go faster.
这是因为完美的数据导入就像催化剂一样，让他们及其客户更快地到达需要的地方。
Lenny: If you'd like to learn more or get started, check out Flatfile and flatfile.com/lenny.
Lenny：如果您想了解更多信息或开始使用，请查看 Flatfile 和 flatfile.com/lenny。
Lenny: Camille, welcome to the podcast.
莱尼：卡米尔，欢迎来到播客。
Camille Ricketts: Hello there.
卡米尔·里基茨：你好。
Thank you so much for having me.
非常感谢你邀请我。
Lenny: Absolutely, my pleasure.
莱尼：当然，我很荣幸。
You have such a fascinating background working at so many world-class companies with so many fascinating people.
您拥有如此迷人的背景，曾在如此多的世界级公司工作过，还有如此多迷人的人。
Could you just take a minute to talk about some of the wonderful things you've done in your career just to set a little context for folks?
您能否花一点时间谈谈您在职业生涯中所做的一些精彩的事情，以便为人们提供一些背景信息？
Camille Ricketts: Yeah.
卡米尔·里基茨：是的。
Well thank you for characterizing them as wonderful.
好吧，感谢您将它们描述为精彩。
Camille Ricketts: I feel like it's been a quite circuitous path, but definitely has taken me to some interesting places.
Camille Ricketts：我觉得这是一条相当迂回的道路，但肯定带我去了一些有趣的地方。
I started off as a journalist at the Wall Street Journal and then found my way into communications and marketing at Tesla Motors where part of my responsibility there was to sit to Elon's right and make sure he had all the data he needed at his fingertips when talking to the press, which was deep end of the pool on the PR learning.
我一开始是《华尔街日报》的一名记者，后来在特斯拉汽车公司进入了传播和营销领域，我的部分职责是坐在埃隆的右边，确保他在与媒体交谈时掌握了所需的所有数据，这是公关学习的最深处。
And then after that, found my way to First Round Capital where I was really fortunate to be at the ground floor of First Round Review, if anyone out there watching this is familiar with those pieces.
在那之后，我找到了 First Round Capital 的路，我真的很幸运能够来到 First Round Review 的底层，如果观看此内容的人熟悉这些作品的话。
Was there for about five years.
在那里待了大约五年。
Loved that team.
喜欢那个团队。
Really incredible folks.
真是令人难以置信的人们。
And then they had invested in Notion really early on, and so I was able to meet Ivan Zhao as a result of that and him and Simon, and they gave me the opportunity to join as the first marketing hire at Notion.
然后他们很早就投资了 Notion，因此我能够见到 Ivan Zhu、他和 Simon，他们给了我机会作为 Notion 的第一位营销人员加入。
And that's what I was doing up until recently.
这就是我直到最近一直在做的事情。
Lenny: I love that Elon tidbit.
莱尼：我喜欢埃隆的花絮。
I like that it was on his right.
我喜欢它在他的右边。
His right hand person.
他的得力助手。
What was that like?
那是什么样子的？
And is there something that you learned working alongside Elon, sitting next to Elon, about operating, working that maybe you've taken to other places you worked at?
你和埃隆一起工作，坐在埃隆旁边，学到了一些关于运营、工作的东西，也许你已经带到了你工作过的其他地方？
Camille Ricketts: I mean, it was a long time ago, so I'll caveat that.
卡米尔·里基茨：我的意思是，那是很久以前的事了，所以我要警告一下。
This was before Model S came out even.
这甚至是在 Model S 推出之前。
So a lot of my work was, and this was a great opportunity, but driving around in the Roadster and talking to journalists and letting reporters ride in the car, which was very seductive and I think maybe just a little unfair from a PR standpoint.
所以我的很多工作都是，这是一个很好的机会，但是开着敞篷跑车四处走动，与记者交谈，让记者坐在车里，这非常诱人，我认为从公关的角度来看可能有点不公平。
But in terms of what I learned, that was really the first job that I had that was necessitating just being incredibly on point with all the information.
但就我所学到的而言，这确实是我的第一份工作，需要对所有信息都非常准确。
So making sure that I knew everything that could possibly come up in a conversation, being incredibly well-versed in just the topics at hand, I think that served me really well.
因此，确保我了解对话中可能出现的所有内容，非常熟悉当前的主题，我认为这对我很有帮助。
I just have to be really, really, really quick and on it.
我只需要非常非常快地去做。
And then the other thing that Elon I think is very talented at or definitely at the time really made an impression on me was painting an emotional picture of the vision that he was really going after and being able to convey the emotional quality of the mission to the people he talked to.
然后，我认为埃隆非常有才华或绝对在当时确实给我留下了深刻印象的另一件事是描绘了他真正追求的愿景的情感图景，并能够向与他交谈的人传达使命的情感品质。
So definitely at the time about the electric vehicle revolution and then space travel, I think he just knew how to make people feel about it that really enlisted a lot of hearts and minds and that is something that I've taken with me for sure.
因此，在电动汽车革命和太空旅行的时候，我认为他知道如何让人们感受到它，这确实吸引了很多人的心和思想，这是我肯定会随身携带的东西。
Lenny: Would you say that was the most stressful place you've worked or have you found more stress post Elon?
莱尼：你会说那是你工作过的压力最大的地方，还是在埃隆之后你发现压力更大了？
Camille Ricketts: I think that that was the place where you just needed to be so on your game.
Camille Ricketts：我认为这就是你需要在比赛中表现出色的地方。
Game face every single day.
每天都要面对游戏。
Which is a wonderful skill to learn.
这是一项非常值得学习的技能。
And then I think there were other moments in my career where just the stakes might have been a little bit higher.
然后我认为在我的职业生涯中还有其他时刻，赌注可能会更高一些。
Certainly at Notion every day felt like we're building this thing together and we're in this very special moment.
当然，在 Notion，我们每天都感觉我们正在一起构建这个东西，而且我们正处于这个非常特殊的时刻。
So yeah, I think there was a mix there.
所以是的，我认为那里有混合。
Lenny: Speaking of Notion, I think you mentioned this and if not, you were the first marketing hire at Notion.
Lenny：说到 Notion，我想您提到了这一点，如果没有，您就是 Notion 的第一位营销人员。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Lenny: What employee number was that?
莱尼：那是多少号员工？
Camille Ricketts: Yeah.
卡米尔·里基茨：是的。
So it was really a small squad of folks at the time.
所以当时这确实是一小群人。
Lenny: And how big are they now, roughly would you say?
莱尼：你觉得它们现在有多大？
Camille Ricketts: The last I heard, I think that they were around 400.
Camille Ricketts：据我所知，他们大约有 400 人。
Maybe a little over 400.
也许400多一点。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
And I think they're worth ...
我认为它们值得...
I don't know.
我不知道。
Last valuation was like $10 billion.
上次估值约为 100 亿美元。
So there's been quite the journey.
所以这是一段相当漫长的旅程。
Must have been quite the adventure being at Notion during this time.
这段时间在 Notion 一定是一次相当冒险的经历。
What's maybe the most tangible memory of working at Notion in the early days?
早期在 Notion 工作最切实的记忆可能是什么？
What was it like early day Notion?
早期的 Notion 是什么样的？
Camille Ricketts: I think a lot about just what the environment felt like.
Camille Ricketts：我对环境的感觉思考了很多。
This was the first very small startup that I had worked for.
这是我工作过的第一家非常小的初创公司。
When I left First Round, I really wanted that experience.
当我离开第一轮时，我真的很想要那种经历。
And the first office that I worked in was really just like a home.
我工作的第一个办公室真的就像一个家。
It literally had an apartment on top of this loft space and it just felt like we were a group of people who lived there together during the day, but it had that kind of home spun really warm quality.
它实际上在这个阁楼空间的顶部有一间公寓，感觉就像我们是一群人白天一起住在那里，但它具有那种家庭纺织的非常温暖的品质。
So we all took our shoes off.
于是我们都脱掉了鞋子。
There was beautiful furnishings and rugs and we would all just sit around and drink tea and work together on these couches.
那里有漂亮的家具和地毯，我们都会坐在沙发上喝茶并一起工作。
So it really had that feeling to it.
所以它确实有那种感觉。
And then there were little quirks.
然后还有一些小怪癖。
I like to reminisce with my colleagues who were there at the time that we didn't have a great HVAC system.
我喜欢和当时在场的同事回忆起我们没有很好的暖通空调系统。
Camille Ricketts: So during the summer it was really hot and then in the winter it was really cold and we would have these big industrial fans and at the time we were like, "Oh, this is really bizarre." But now it's one of our favorite memories to talk about.
Camille Ricketts：夏天真的很热，冬天真的很冷，我们会有这些大型工业风扇，当时我们就想，“哦，这真的很奇怪。”但现在它是我们最喜欢谈论的回忆之一。
Or for a while we didn't have overhead lighting, so me and my colleagues who were there working really late at night, it would just get darker and darker and darker.
或者有一段时间我们没有头顶照明，所以我和我在那里工作到深夜的同事，天会变得越来越暗。
And one of my favorite folks there actually had a headlamp that she would switch on at a certain point in the evening.
我最喜欢的人之一实际上有一盏头灯，她会在晚上的某个时候打开。
So that's the stuff that really comes up for me.
这才是真正适合我的东西。
We were all working really hard and in this thing together, but it's that team familial quality that stands out to me.
我们都非常努力地一起做这件事，但对我来说最突出的是团队的家庭品质。
Lenny: I love how some of these early moments where it feels like, what the hell are we doing?
莱尼：我喜欢早期的一些时刻，那种感觉就像是，我们到底在做什么？
We have to wear headlamps?
我们必须戴头灯吗？
It's super hot.
天气超级热。
When you're in it, you're like, this isn't maybe how our startup should be going.
当你身处其中时，你会想，这也许不是我们的初创公司应该发展的方向。
And it feels really painful and hard.
而且感觉真的很痛苦和艰难。
But looking back, it's always the best memories, those hardships.
但回想起来，永远都是最美好的回忆，那些艰辛。
Camille Ricketts: It truly is.
卡米尔·里基茨：确实如此。
And the moments that we were there late at night really trying to get something done before a big launch the next day, that's where our hearts lie, I think, to a large extent.
我认为，当我们在深夜在那里真正努力在第二天的大型发布之前完成一些事情时，这在很大程度上就是我们的心所在。
That crew that was there.
那里的那个船员。
Lenny: On that note, and when you're talking about stress working with Elon, you talked about Notion had a different kind of stress.
莱尼：关于这一点，当你谈论与埃隆一起工作的压力时，你谈到 Notion 有一种不同的压力。
What's maybe the most stressful memory you have of working at Notion?
您在 Notion 工作期间最有压力的记忆是什么？
Whatever you can share.
有什么可以分享的。
Camille Ricketts: This is something that has long since been rectified, but the first day that we came back from break in 2021 ...
Camille Ricketts：这个问题早就被纠正了，但 2021 年我们休息回来的第一天......
We had all been sort of away for the holidays.
我们都出去度假了。
We reassemble.
我们重新集合。
I think it's January 3rd, 2021 perhaps.
我想也许是 2021 年 1 月 3 日。
Had a massive outage that day that took down, not just us but also a lot of our peer companies.
那天发生了大规模的停电，不仅影响了我们，还影响了我们的许多同行公司。
And so it was literally all hands on deck.
因此，实际上是所有人都齐心协力。
We're suddenly seeing all of these people on Twitter pop up, on the Reddit pop up being like, "Oh my gosh.
我们突然看到所有这些人在 Twitter 上弹出，在 Reddit 上弹出，就像，“哦，天哪。
What am I going to do?" And it really reinforced for us how central Notion had become to so many people.
我该怎么办？”这确实强化了我们对概念的重视程度。
So on one hand it was kind of this amazing moment of realization of how vital this thing we were building was all the time, which adds to the stress in the moment, but also your motivation overall.
因此，一方面，这是一个令人惊奇的时刻，我们意识到我们正在构建的这个东西一直以来都是多么重要，这增加了当时的压力，但也增加了你的整体动力。
Camille Ricketts: And then we also saw on Twitter, and this is part of why community is such a core focus of mine, but people being like, "They're trying really hard to get it back up.
Camille Ricketts：然后我们也在 Twitter 上看到，这就是为什么社区是我的核心关注点的部分原因，但人们会说，“他们正在努力恢复它。
Give them a break." Or like, "Sending hugs to the Notion team.
让他们休息一下。”或者像这样，“向 Notion 团队拥抱。
We know you've got this." And we really appreciated that and that was just a very heartwarming aspect of it.
我们知道你有这个。”我们真的很感激这一点，这只是其中一个非常温暖人心的方面。
But that day was definitely a scramble and we wanted to be as communicative as possible.
但那天绝对是一场争吵，我们希望尽可能地进行交流。
So my team was really central to making sure that everybody knew what was going on, what the efforts were being made to fix it, time horizon, all of that.
因此，我的团队在确保每个人都知道正在发生的事情、正在采取哪些努力来解决问题、时间范围等方面发挥着核心作用。
So they've long since hired the best infrastructure people I think in the industry and refactored the database and everything.
所以他们很早就聘请了我认为业内最好的基础设施人员，并重构了数据库和一切。
So it's not an issue anymore, but certainly that was a moment of stress at the time.
所以这不再是一个问题，但那肯定是当时的一个压力时刻。
Lenny: It's interesting looking at those times.
莱尼：回顾那些时光很有趣。
When you're in it, you're like, "We are going to die.
当你身处其中时，你会想：“我们快要死了。
We're down.
我们倒下了。
People will stop using Notion.
人们将停止使用 Notion。
We're in big trouble." When really people always come back if it's an awesome product.
我们有大麻烦了。”如果这是一款很棒的产品，人们总是会回来的。
I think of last things down for a week, JIRA or Confluent, and people come back if it's an awesome product.
我会思考一周内最后的事情，JIRA 或 Confluence，如果这是一个很棒的产品，人们就会回来。
Camille Ricketts: I think that's a good tactical learning and hopefully a takeaway for folks who maybe will experience that moment is that truly there's more resilience built into the system than you might think.
Camille Ricketts：我认为这是一次很好的战术学习，希望对于那些可能会经历那一刻的人们来说，系统中内置的弹性确实比您想象的要强。
Lenny: So speaking of community, you talked about just how important that was during this time and then just in general.
莱尼：说到社区，您谈到了这段时间的重要性，然后只是总体而言。
I was doing research on you and things that you've done over your career to prep for this podcast and I found there's two areas that you've led the charge on and we're ahead of the curve on and in part help innovate.
为了准备这个播客，我对你和你在职业生涯中所做的事情进行了研究，我发现你在两个领域发挥了带头作用，而我们在这方面处于领先地位，并在一定程度上帮助创新。
One is community led growth and two is content marketing in a big way.
一是社区主导的增长，二是大规模的内容营销。
And so I wanted to focus a lot of our chat on these two areas.
因此，我想将我们的大部分讨论集中在这两个领域。
Community led growth, it feels like a very buzzy topic on Twitter.
社区主导的增长，感觉就像 Twitter 上一个非常热门的话题。
Everyone's always talking about how the future of growth is community.
每个人都在谈论增长的未来如何是社区。
You've got to build a community.
你必须建立一个社区。
You got to be community led and all these things.
你必须受到社区的领导以及所有这些事情。
And so I want to try to make this concept concrete and help people understand should they invest in community.
因此，我想尝试使这个概念具体化，并帮助人们理解他们是否应该投资社区。
How can community help you?
社区可以如何帮助您？
When does it make sense to you?
什么时候对你来说有意义？
When does it not make sense to invest?
什么时候投资没有意义？
And so maybe just as a first question, just what is community led growth?
所以也许作为第一个问题，什么是社区主导的增长？
What does that actually mean as a concept?
作为一个概念，这实际上意味着什么？
Camille Ricketts: Yeah.
卡米尔·里基茨：是的。
I think it has become quite buzzy and it's certainly aspirational for a lot of product led growth companies and even those that are maybe a little bit outside of the product led growth orbit.
我认为它已经变得相当热门，并且对于许多产品主导型增长公司，甚至是那些可能有点超出产品主导型增长轨道的公司来说，这无疑是一个愿望。
And we're seeing all of these startups I think also come out that are about community and how to enhance the effects.
我认为我们看到所有这些初创公司的出现都是关于社区以及如何增强效果的。
In terms of how I think about what it actually is, it's when your community helps you achieve such ubiquity and such name recognition that it actually allows you to start moving upmarket into the enterprise.
就我如何看待它实际上是什么而言，当您的社区帮助您实现如此普遍和如此高的知名度时，它实际上可以让您开始进入高端市场进入企业。
And I know that might be very specific to enterprise oriented companies, but that's how we defined it at Notion was the fact that so many people were talking about this, sharing what they had built about it, honestly starting businesses of their own around it to formalize the relationship with teams that I think it de-risked Notion as a choice for a lot of companies just because they had heard about it through so many channels.
我知道这可能是面向企业的公司所特有的，但这就是我们在 Notion 的定义，因为很多人都在谈论这一点，分享他们所建立的东西，诚实地围绕它创办自己的企业，以正式与团队的关系，我认为这降低了很多公司选择 Notion 的风险，因为他们通过如此多的渠道听说过它。
They had seen it on social media, they've heard about it on a podcast, their friend told them about it, they saw a billboard.
他们在社交媒体上看到过，在播客上听说过，他们的朋友告诉过他们，他们看到了一个广告牌。
All of that lended itself to larger and larger companies and teams buying more and more seats.
所有这些都有助于越来越大的公司和团队购买越来越多的席位。
So I think that's the power that the community had for us.
所以我认为这就是社区为我们提供的力量。
And I see that also being analogous to what companies like Figma have been able to achieve.
我认为这也类似于 Figma 等公司所取得的成就。
Lenny: It sounds like a lot of the way you're describing it is basically awareness.
莱尼：听起来你描述的很多方式基本上都是意识。
Brand awareness is what you found to be maybe the most useful element of this community that you built around Notion.
品牌知名度可能是您围绕 Notion 建立的社区中最有用的元素。
Camille Ricketts: I love using the word discovery because I think that that is even a little bit like a step further than awareness where true discovery is when you have intent to find out more.
Camille Ricketts：我喜欢使用“发现”这个词，因为我认为这甚至有点像比意识更进一步，真正的发现是当你有意图发现更多的时候。
You've heard about it so many times or you've been intrigued by something that someone has told you to the extent that you're actually going to take the step of now learning about it.
你已经听过很多次了，或者你对某人告诉你的一些事情很感兴趣，以至于你现在实际上要采取行动来了解它。
And that's where we really wanted to play and to emphasize our work.
这就是我们真正想要发挥并强调我们的工作的地方。
Lenny: Got it.
莱尼：明白了。
So it sounded like the KPI/OKR of your team was get more people aware and excited to explore Notion.
因此，听起来您团队的 KPI/OKR 是让更多人意识到并兴奋地探索 Notion。
Camille Ricketts: Yeah.
卡米尔·里基茨：是的。
And maybe this is a helpful tactical point.
也许这是一个有用的战术点。
I think when people think about acquisition or discovery or brand awareness or brand in general, they're like what collection of metrics are actually going to give us insight into this?
我认为，当人们考虑收购或发现或品牌知名度或一般品牌时，他们会想什么样的指标集合实际上能让我们深入了解这一点？
And the one that I found to be the most instructive was net new visitors to the Notion website.
我发现最有启发性的是 Notion 网站的净新访问者。
So month over month, how many new people who had never been there before were motivated enough to come and actually learn about the product.
月复一月，有多少以前从未去过那里的新人有足够的动力来真正了解该产品。
And that was really the responsibility of the brand team and the folks that worked with me on community and content and all of the awareness campaigns that we were putting out into the field was about getting more new people interested.
这确实是品牌团队以及在社区和内容方面与我合作的人们的责任，我们在该领域开展的所有宣传活动都是为了让更多新人感兴趣。
Lenny: So that begs to the question, did you have any clever ways of attributing that new traffic to stuff your team did versus the SEO team or other teams?
Lenny：所以这就引出了一个问题，您是否有任何聪明的方法将新流量归因于您的团队与 SEO 团队或其他团队所做的事情？
Camille Ricketts: In particular I'll call out the influencer marketing efforts that were really being run by this incredible woman, Lexi Barnhorn, where they were incredibly measurable.
卡米尔·里基茨（Camille Ricketts）：我特别要指出的是，莱克西·巴恩霍恩（Lexi Barnhorn）这位令人难以置信的女性正在开展有影响力的营销工作，这些工作的可衡量性令人难以置信。
Where we were like, okay, well we're sponsoring people for this amount, these creators across these platforms and we know that people came from that content directly to the Notion website.
我们当时想，好吧，我们正在为这些平台上的创作者提供这笔金额的赞助，我们知道人们是从这些内容直接来到 Notion 网站的。
So we were able to draw really tight connections.
所以我们能够建立非常紧密的联系。
So I think that some types of content lend themselves to that.
所以我认为某些类型的内容适合这样做。
And then also with community, there's certain things you can do around helping your community members report on how many people are attending, et cetera, to give you that sense.
然后，对于社区，您可以做一些事情来帮助您的社区成员报告有多少人参加等等，让您有这种感觉。
Lenny: So you may be already answering this question, but I'm curious what efforts had the most impact to achieve these goals that you had of creating more awareness and discovery motivation and things like that.
莱尼：所以你可能已经回答了这个问题，但我很好奇哪些努力对实现这些目标（例如创造更多意识和发现动力等）最有影响力。
What actually worked?
什么真正起作用了？
Camille Ricketts: So I'd say that the community efforts that were very big for us we're the ambassadors.
Camille Ricketts：所以我想说，社区的努力对我们来说非常重要，我们是大使。
Also making sure that people were hosting in-person events.
还要确保人们举办面对面的活动。
This really took off in 2019.
这在 2019 年才真正起飞。
Obviously we paused for 2020, 2021, but now I just spent time with Notion's head of community, Ben Lang, who truly is the mastermind and genius behind so much of this and he says that they're back up to 30 in-person events a month around the world.
显然我们在 2020 年、2021 年暂停了，但现在我刚刚和 Notion 的社区负责人 Ben Lang 聊了一会儿，他确实是这一切背后的策划者和天才，他说他们每月在世界各地恢复多达 30 场现场活动。
So that really helped on the international scale of spreading ubiquity and ended up lending itself to relationships with Station F in France, which is the biggest startup campus in Paris.
因此，这确实有助于在国际范围内普及，并最终促成了与法国 Station F 的关系，这是巴黎最大的创业园区。
So really helping us work our way into those types of networks and then supporting those people to also start their own businesses and derive whatever reward they were looking for themselves.
因此，真正帮助我们进入这些类型的网络，然后支持这些人创办自己的企业并获得他们想要的任何回报。
So we really wanted to align our goals with theirs.
所以我们真的想让我们的目标与他们的目标保持一致。
Camille Ricketts: A lot of those folks actually started revenue generating businesses as consultants or course makers or influencers.
卡米尔·里基茨（Camille Ricketts）：其中很多人实际上是作为顾问、课程制作者或影响者开始创收的。
Some of them just wanted to build their own platforms online.
他们中的一些人只是想建立自己的在线平台。
So all of our efforts there are around building guides or counseling people one-on-one or making it easier for them to actually achieve those goals for themselves was also a big part of this growth.
因此，我们所有的努力都是围绕建立指南或一对一地为人们提供咨询或让他们更容易地为自己实现这些目标也是这一增长的重要组成部分。
And then like I said, influencers.
然后就像我说的，有影响力的人。
This was something that Ben started exploring in 2019 and we were so pleasantly overwhelmed with the amount of traction and traffic that was driven by working with some of these influencers.
这是 Ben 在 2019 年开始探索的事情，与其中一些有影响力的人合作所带来的牵引力和流量让我们感到非常高兴。
And now that program has exploded into a multi-channel effort that's huge for Notion.
现在，该计划已发展成为一项多渠道工作，这对 Notion 来说意义重大。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
The influencers makes a lot of sense.
影响者的说法很有意义。
I want to learn more about this ambassador program and what that was about with events and maybe just broadly, I imagine a lot of founders might be listening and they're like, "Yeah, this all sounds awesome, but how do you know if it's doing anything?" Events.
我想更多地了解这个大使计划以及它与活动有关的内容，也许从广义上讲，我想很多创始人可能会听，他们会说，“是的，这一切听起来都很棒，但你怎么知道它是否在做任何事情呢？”活动。
That would be great, but how much is it worth investing?
那就太好了，但是值得投资多少呢？
How much time and attention does it take?
需要多少时间和精力？
How do we know if this is actually ROI positive?
我们如何知道这是否真的能带来积极的投资回报率？
Is there anything you learn there about just ...
你在那里学到了什么吗？
Is it a founder must believe in this as a thing that is probably going to work sort of thing?
创始人是否必须相信这可能会起作用？
Or is there something you found to convince people like, yes, this is how you can know it's working?
或者你是否发现了一些东西可以说服人们，比如，是的，这就是你如何知道它有效的方法？
Camille Ricketts: That's a great question.
卡米尔·里基茨：这是一个很好的问题。
I think that we were really fortunate that Ivan saw the inherent value in community from the very beginning and was deeply supportive.
我认为我们真的很幸运，伊万从一开始就看到了社区的内在价值并给予了大力支持。
And actually one of my number one recommendations for anybody who suspects the community could be a big growth driver is to not make metrics the be all end all at the very beginning.
实际上，对于任何怀疑社区可能成为巨大增长动力的人，我的首要建议之一就是不要从一开始就将指标作为一切。
So we didn't necessarily start measuring things very concretely until last year with community.
因此，直到去年我们才开始与社区进行非常具体的衡量。
Mostly because we had already seen so much organic scale that we saw being tied to our community efforts in some way in terms of where we were geographically expanding, how people were reporting that they had discovered us whenever we surveyed them.
主要是因为我们已经看到了如此大的有机规模，以至于我们看到以某种方式与我们的社区努力联系在一起，比如我们在地理上的扩张，人们在我们调查时如何报告他们发现了我们。
So that type of motion.
所以这种运动。
And I think for any company that is seeing this type of just organic fervor, one of the worst things you can do is say, let's cut this off at the knees if it's not generating ROI.
我认为，对于任何看到这种有机热情的公司来说，你能做的最糟糕的事情之一就是说，如果它不能产生投资回报率，那就让我们把它砍掉吧。
Lenny: I imagine internally there's just like obviously this is good.
莱尼：我想在内部显然这很好。
We may not be able to measure it, but it feels like this is very good for Notion.
我们可能无法衡量它，但感觉这对 Notion 来说非常好。
It feels like especially for a prosumer product like Notion, it makes a lot of sense because it's driven by people using it and then they bring it into the company, like you said.
感觉特别是对于像 Notion 这样的产消者产品来说，它很有意义，因为它是由使用它的人驱动的，然后他们将它带入公司，就像你说的那样。
Maybe it's less ROI positive or just one enterprise product.
也许它的投资回报率不太高，或者只是一种企业产品。
Do you have any thoughts there?
你有什么想法吗？
Is this a great strategy for prosumer enterprise products more so than more enterprise-y?
对于消费者企业产品而言，这是否比企业产品更重要？
Camille Ricketts: Definitely I think if you have a long sales cycle or a high price point where there has to be many, many, many touchpoints in order to get somebody to decide to buy, I'm not sure that community should be the number one thing that you invest in.
卡米尔·里基茨（Camille Ricketts）：当然，我认为如果你的销售周期很长或价格很高，必须有很多很多接触点才能让人们决定购买，我不确定社区应该是你投资的第一件事。
Certainly for freemium products, I think for a lot of them, especially if they have what I'm going to call the atomic unit of sharing, which I will define out, it becomes a no-brainer.
当然，对于免费增值产品，我认为对于很多产品来说，特别是如果它们拥有我将要定义的共享原子单元，那么这将是理所当然的事情。
I think that community lends itself particularly well if you have something that your product creates that people want to share because it exhibits something about themselves.
我认为，如果你的产品创造了一些人们想要分享的东西，因为它展示了他们自己的一些东西，那么社区就特别适合。
So at Notion it was templates or even people just creating their own workspaces and being really excited to show them off.
因此，在 Notion，人们使用的是模板，甚至是人们创建自己的工作空间，并非常兴奋地展示它们。
So Notion really benefited from being a creative product, but the same is true of Figma or Canva or any of these where showing people what it is that you've created is an aspirational thing to do.
因此，Notion 确实受益于成为一款创意产品，但 Figma 或 Canva 或任何其他产品也是如此，向人们展示您所创造的内容是一件令人渴望的事情。
Because you are showing that you are really well versed in how to use the products, extremely organized.
因为你表明你非常精通如何使用产品，并且非常有条理。
You're self expressing in some way.
你正在以某种方式表达自我。
So if your product does have that element to it, I think that community is a great investment.
因此，如果你的产品确实有这个元素，我认为社区是一项很好的投资。
Lenny: You touched on this point, and I don't think people realize this, but you can make a lot of money creating templates on Notion, right?
Lenny：你提到了这一点，我认为人们没有意识到这一点，但你可以通过在 Notion 上创建模板赚很多钱，对吗？
That's a whole ecosystem.
这是一个完整的生态系统。
Can you talk about that?
你能谈谈吗？
Because I don't think a lot of people know this.
因为我认为没有很多人知道这一点。
Camille Ricketts: Yeah.
卡米尔·里基茨：是的。
This is one of the reasons that I would advise any of the companies that feel like they fall into this category start early.
这就是我建议任何认为自己属于这一类别的公司尽早开始的原因之一。
Because you need to nurture all of these different routes that people in your community can take.
因为您需要培养社区中的人们可以采取的所有这些不同的路线。
Certainly early on I think that the people that we initially recruited in the ambassadors didn't see themselves doing maybe even close to a million dollars in business around helping other teams succeed with the product or selling templates.
当然，在早期，我认为我们最初招募的大使并没有看到自己在帮助其他团队成功开发产品或销售模板方面所做的业务可能接近一百万美元。
I remember really early on, probably mid 2021 we heard of one creator who had made $35,000 in four months selling one template and that was a very common story then from that point forward.
我记得很早的时候，大概是 2021 年中期，我们听说一位创作者在四个月内销售一个模板赚了 35,000 美元，从那时起，这是一个非常常见的故事。
And helping them do that, actually creating the guide material and the networks and also the connections between the people who are running similar businesses who could help each other, that all became really fundamental.
帮助他们做到这一点，实际上创建指导材料和网络，以及经营类似企业的人们之间可以互相帮助的联系，这一切都变得非常重要。
But to your point about, oh is this actually related to the enterprise motion for Notion?
但就你的观点而言，哦，这实际上与 Notion 的企业动议有关吗？
So many companies now of many sizes are relying on the consultants that first came up through our community and some of those consultants are now employing dozens of other people.
现在，许多规模各异的公司都依赖于我们社区中最初出现的顾问，其中一些顾问现在还雇用了数十名其他人员。
Lenny: That's incredible.
莱尼：这太不可思议了。
There's no better way to motivate someone to evangelize Notion than have their income rely on Notion.
没有什么比让人们的收入依赖于 Notion 更好地激励人们传播 Notion 了。
Camille Ricketts: And it's also just inspiring for us, honestly.
Camille Ricketts：老实说，这对我们来说也很有启发。
There's so many people who started off with not very many followers and now they are celebrities within this ecosystem.
有很多人一开始粉丝不多，但现在他们成为了这个生态系统中的名人。
Lenny: So maybe coming back to the ambassador program, that's separate from this selling Notion templates ecosystem.
莱尼：所以也许回到大使计划，它与销售概念模板生态系统是分开的。
What is the ambassador program?
什么是大使计划？
Camille Ricketts: They're actually quite blended because the folks who are excited about Notion, it takes a lot of forms.
Camille Ricketts：它们实际上非常混合，因为那些对 Notion 感到兴奋的人们，它有很多种形式。
Sometimes they want to host events, sometimes they want to build templates.
有时他们想要举办活动，有时他们想要构建模板。
So we would actually have channels inside of our Slack instance for the ambassadors that had these areas of focus based on what people really were passionate about or wanted to do and they were like a force multiplying flywheel for each other.
因此，我们实际上会在 Slack 实例内部为大使提供渠道，这些大使根据人们真正热衷或想做的事情来关注这些领域，他们就像彼此的力量倍增飞轮。
Because a lot of folks would enter the ambassadors program and then I'm happy to talk about champions as well, which is a little bit different, and then discover what it would mean for them to build templates and it became motivating for that reason.
因为很多人会加入大使计划，然后我也很高兴谈论冠军，这有点不同，然后发现构建模板对他们意味着什么，因此变得有动力。
So on the champions side of things, and this is maybe speaking a little bit more to the enterprise as well, we wondered if the same DNA that existed among consumers for the most part in the ambassadors could work for folks who were inside of our customer companies.
因此，在冠军方面，这可能也对企业有更多意义，我们想知道消费者中大部分存在于大使中的相同 DNA 是否也适用于我们客户公司内部的人员。
And so we launched another community, another Slack instance for folks who were the most passionate or the most avid users of Notion inside of our customer companies, which has become just a wonderful channel for customer success to be more communicative with those companies, make sure that things are sticking or obstacles are being overcome.
因此，我们为客户公司内部最热情或最狂热的 Notion 用户推出了另一个社区，另一个 Slack 实例，这已成为客户成功与这些公司进行更多沟通的绝佳渠道，确保事情坚持下去或克服障碍。
And that's been designed very specifically that way and it has been really, really valuable over time.
这是专门设计的，随着时间的推移，它确实非常有价值。
Lenny: Okay.
莱尼：好的。
So let me try to understand this.
让我试着理解这一点。
Champions are basically the most active users of Notion.
冠军基本上是 Notion 最活跃的用户。
You put them in a Slack and help them become even more excited and make sure they're happy.
您将他们放入 Slack 中，帮助他们变得更加兴奋并确保他们快乐。
Ambassador.
大使。
I still don't totally understand what is an ambassador?
我还是不太明白什么是大使？
Is that someone you're paying to help promote Notion?
这是您花钱帮助推广 Notion 的人吗？
What does that actually mean when you're an ambassador?
当你担任大使时，这实际上意味着什么？
Camille Ricketts: They're people who are really just passionate about the product.
Camille Ricketts：他们是对产品充满热情的人。
So it's not transactional.
所以它不是交易性的。
They're people who love building with Notion.
他们是喜欢用 Notion 进行构建的人。
They love sharing what they've built in order to help others.
他们喜欢分享自己构建的东西来帮助他人。
And they really just want it to be a bigger part of their lives.
他们真的只是希望它成为他们生活中更重要的一部分。
And I think that one of the points about community is that it's not just a one-to-one conversation with us.
我认为关于社区的要点之一是它不仅仅是与我们进行一对一的对话。
The big draw over time, maybe people joined because they would get early access to features.
随着时间的推移，人们加入的最大吸引力可能是因为他们可以尽早使用功能。
We would get their feedback.
我们会得到他们的反馈。
That became really important for our product team or because we would offer AMAs with some of our folks internally.
这对于我们的产品团队来说变得非常重要，或者因为我们会向内部的一些人员提供 AMA。
But over time it was really because they were forming these bonds with each other and learning so much from each other that most of the time someone would come in and say, I'm struggling with this or I don't quite know how to use this and it would be another member of the community that would help them more immediately.
但随着时间的推移，这实际上是因为他们彼此之间形成了这些纽带，并向彼此学习了很多东西，以至于大多数时候有人会进来说，我正在为此苦苦挣扎，或者我不太知道如何使用它，而社区的另一位成员会更立即地帮助他们。
So it really allowed them to form these dense networks of friendships that I think became just a positive part of people's lives.
所以这确实让他们形成了这些密集的友谊网络，我认为这成为了人们生活中积极的一部分。
Lenny: What I'm taking away from this partly is you identify a group of people that are interested in Notion, excited about Notion and then just lean in to support them.
Lenny：我从这件事中得到的部分收获是，你确定了一群对 Notion 感兴趣、对 Notion 感到兴奋的人，然后倾心支持他们。
There's people that are buying Notion and that are power users, help them be better power users.
有些人购买了 Notion，他们是高级用户，帮助他们成为更好的高级用户。
Influencers that are kind of excited about Notion, pay them to promote Notion.
对 Notion 有点兴奋的影响者付钱给他们来推广 Notion。
Then the ambassadors that are people just passionate about Notion, help them be more passionate.
然后，那些对 Notion 充满热情的大使会帮助他们变得更加热情。
And then the people making templates, help them be successful.
然后人们制作模板，帮助他们取得成功。
Is that roughly how you think about it?
您大概是这样想的吗？
Just identify something that's working and make it more effective?
只是确定一些有效的方法并使其更有效吗？
Camille Ricketts: I think if it doesn't sound too reductive, yes.
Camille Ricketts：我想如果这听起来不太简单的话，是的。
I would also say that one of the things that I think Ben was best at is not putting a one size fits all experience on any of this.
我还想说，我认为本最擅长的事情之一就是不会在任何一个方面都提供一刀切的经验。
I think that some communities get built where people are like, okay, well we have this community and it's going to be this and this and this, or these are the types of programs we're going to offer or these are the types of interactions we're going to have.
我认为有些社区是在人们这样的地方建立的，好吧，我们有这个社区，它将是这个、这个和这个，或者这些是我们将提供的项目类型，或者这些是我们将进行的互动类型。
As opposed to I think a lot of listening of the people who are actually participating.
与我认为的相反，实际参与的人会倾听很多。
Really early on one of the things that Ben did that I thought was really amazing was he'd spend a ton of time just on Zoom having conversations, one-on-one conversations, semi small group conversations just saying, "Why are you here?
很早以前，Ben 做过的一件我认为非常神奇的事情就是他会花大量时间在 Zoom 上进行对话，一对一对话，半小组对话只是说，“你为什么在这里？
Why do you like participating in this?
你为什么喜欢参与这个？
What is it that would make it better?" And really helping our entire team follow their lead.
是什么能让事情变得更好？”并真正帮助我们整个团队遵循他们的领导。
I would recommend highly not necessarily coming in with preconceived notions about what a community needs to look like.
我强烈建议不要对社区需要的样子抱有先入为主的观念。
Lenny: You touched on this, that if the founder believes in the power of community, this becomes so much easier.
莱尼：你谈到了这一点，如果创始人相信社区的力量，这就会变得容易得多。
A lot of founders are like, "Nah.
很多创始人都会说：“不。
That's a waste of time." Do you think founders are convincible that building community and investing in community is worth it?
那是浪费时间。”您认为创始人相信建立社区和投资社区是值得的吗？
Have you seen that effective where a founder just comes into it being like, "Nah, I don't think this is worth our time," and then they get convinced later?
你是否见过这样有效的做法：创始人刚开始时会说，“不，我认为这不值得我们花时间”，然后他们就会被说服？
Or is it just like, "Nah, forget it.
或者只是说，“不，算了。
Don't even try."?
甚至不要尝试。”？
Camille Ricketts: I mean I've talked to a lot of different people who come at this with different impressions and everybody knows more about their company than I do, but I do think that if ubiquity or just the sheer word of mouth engine is something that is going to be valuable for your company over time, I would really urge people to sit down and really think carefully what is going to be more conducive to our long-term success?
卡米尔·里基茨（Camille Ricketts）：我的意思是，我和很多不同的人谈过，他们对此有不同的印象，每个人都比我更了解他们的公司，但我确实认为，如果随时间的推移，无处不在或仅仅是口碑引擎对你的公司来说是有价值的，我真的会敦促人们坐下来认真思考什么将更有利于我们的长期成功？
Is it going to be that ubiquity or is it going to be revenue now?
它会变得无处不在还是会成为收入？
And I think if we look at a lot of the companies that have been just wildly successful from the start, they're people who have pushed off maybe monetizing every little thing if it's going to really put a damper on that type of enthusiasm and momentum that people have to share it at what it is they're doing.
我认为，如果我们看看许多从一开始就取得巨大成功的公司，他们就会推迟将每件小事货币化，如果这真的会抑制人们必须分享他们正在做的事情的热情和动力。
Because there's always opportunity I think later once you have that big tide of people who are not just excited but also legitimizing what it is that you do every single day, that gets mobilized in a lot of different directions and you have a lot more options then.
因为我认为，一旦你有一大群人，他们不仅感到兴奋，而且还使你每天所做的事情合法化，那么机会就会在很多不同的方向上被动员起来，然后你就有了更多的选择。
Lenny: What's interesting about Notion is you have high LTVs when you sell to larger companies, but the initial users are often just regular folks.
Lenny：Notion 的有趣之处在于，当你向大公司销售产品时，LTV 很高，但最初的用户通常只是普通人。
And so I think it's a unique place where you have cash to spend on making it ubiquitous and getting the word out through all these community efforts because it'll pay off.
因此，我认为这是一个独特的地方，您可以花钱让它变得无处不在，并通过所有这些社区努力来宣传它，因为它会得到回报。
And a lot of companies probably don't have that advantage.
而很多公司可能不具备这种优势。
So would it feel right to say that this is really effective for product led, growthy, freemium products most?
那么，说这对于以产品为主导的、成长性的、免费增值产品确实最有效是正确的吗？
Is that a good way to think about it?
这是一个好的思考方式吗？
Camille Ricketts: Yeah.
卡米尔·里基茨：是的。
Or I think if organic growth is something that you see being really beneficial or if organic growth happens to be something you really have to crack because you don't always have everything you need for paid growth from either a resourcing standpoint, team standpoint, really figuring out how to get that organic flywheel going can serve you well.
或者我认为，如果有机增长是你认为真正有益的东西，或者如果有机增长恰好是你真正必须破解的东西，因为从资源的角度、团队的角度来看，你并不总是拥有有偿增长所需的一切，真正弄清楚如何让有机飞轮运转可以为你带来好处。
It becomes this buttress for any paid growth you explore in the future.
它成为您未来探索的任何付费增长的支柱。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Vanta.
莱尼：这一集是万塔给你带来的。
Helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate growth.
帮助您简化安全合规性以加速增长。
If your business stores any data in the cloud, then you've likely been asked or you're going to be asked about your SOC 2 compliance.
如果您的企业在云中存储任何数据，那么您可能会被询问或将被询问有关 SOC 2 合规性的问题。
SOC 2 is a way to prove your company's taking proper security measures to protect customer data and builds trust with customers and partners, especially those with serious security requirements.
SOC 2 是一种证明您的公司采取了适当的安全措施来保护客户数据并与客户和合作伙伴（尤其是那些有严格安全要求的客户和合作伙伴）建立信任的方法。
Also, if you want to sell to the enterprise, proving security is essential, SOC 2 can either open the door for bigger and better deals or it can put your business on hold.
此外，如果您想向企业销售产品，证明安全性至关重要，SOC 2 可以为更大、更好的交易打开大门，也可以让您的业务陷入困境。
If you don't have a SOC 2, there's a good chance you won't even get a seat at the table.
如果您没有 SOC 2，您很可能甚至无法获得席位。
Beginning a SOC 2 report can be a huge burden, especially for startups.
开始 SOC 2 报告可能是一个巨大的负担，尤其是对于初创公司而言。
It's time consuming, tedious and expensive.
这是耗时、乏味且昂贵的。
Enter Vanta.
输入万塔。
Over 3000 fast growing companies use Vanta to automate up to 90% of the work involved with SOC 2.
超过 3000 家快速发展的公司使用 Vanta 自动化 SOC 2 涉及的高达 90% 的工作。
Vanta can get you ready for security audits in weeks instead of months.
Vanta 可以让您在几周而不是几个月内为安全审核做好准备。
Less than a third of the time that it usually takes.
不到通常所需时间的三分之一。
For a limited time Lenny's podcast listeners get $1,000 off Vanta.
Lenny 的播客听众限时享受 Vanta 1,000 美元优惠。
Just go to vanta.com/lenny.
只需访问vanta.com/lenny。
That's V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny to learn more and to claim your discount.
请访问 V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny 了解更多信息并申请折扣。
Get started today.
今天就开始吧。
Lenny: What other companies come to mind when you think about companies that effectively did community led growth, did community well and grew in large part because of community?
Lenny：当您想到那些有效地实现了社区主导增长、社区做得很好并且在很大程度上因为社区而成长的公司时，您会想到哪些其他公司？
Camille Ricketts: I've mentioned Figma a couple times here so I don't want to beleaguer the point, but they're certainly a team that I've looked up to through my entire experience at Notion.
Camille Ricketts：我在这里多次提到 Figma，所以我不想回避这一点，但他们无疑是我在 Notion 的整个经历中一直尊敬的团队。
We were kind of sibling companies in a way.
在某种程度上，我们是兄弟公司。
Huge kudos to Claire Butler over there who I knew led all of those efforts and we would trade a lot of knowledge back and forth, which was so lovely to have that relationship.
非常感谢那里的克莱尔·巴特勒（Claire Butler），我知道她领导了所有这些努力，我们会来回交换很多知识，拥有这种关系真是太好了。
But they did an amazing job I think in a similar vein to Notion of saying, okay, people are really excited to create these things and then put them out there on the internet.
但他们做了一件了不起的工作，我认为这与 Notion 类似，他们说，好吧，人们真的很高兴创造这些东西，然后把它们放在互联网上。
So how can we just fuel that particular motion out there?
那么我们如何才能推动这种特定的运动呢？
The other example I'll give, which is a little bit of a different tack is Stripe.
我要给出的另一个例子是 Stripe，它的策略略有不同。
And when Stripe launched Stripe Atlas, not necessarily core to the initial product line that Stripe was known for and what had been foundational for them, but allowed them to build this community among probably their core demographic at the time, which was founders and startups that were growing through the stages to mid-market, they were able to cultivate this huge audience of founders around giving advice and providing them with resources to actually get started and do that zero to one journey.
当 Stripe 推出 Stripe Atlas 时，这不一定是 Stripe 闻名的初始产品线的核心，也是他们的基础，但允许他们在当时的核心人群中建立这个社区，这些人群是在各个阶段发展到中端市场的创始人和初创公司，他们能够培养这一大批创始人的受众，为他们提供建议，并为他们提供资源，以真正开始并完成零到一的旅程。
Camille Ricketts: So while it was adjacent to maybe what the company's core mission was, it allowed them to actually create community among their customer base because they were like, "We're knowledgeable.
Camille Ricketts：因此，虽然它可能与公司的核心使命相邻，但它使他们能够在客户群中真正创建社区，因为他们会说，“我们知识渊博。
We can share these things with you that we know are core to your journey." So I would encourage anyone who's thinking about community that way to be like, "Oh, maybe it doesn't have to be around our product.
我们可以与您分享这些我们知道对您的旅程至关重要的事情。”因此，我鼓励任何以这种方式思考社区的人，“哦，也许它不必围绕我们的产品。
So specifically.
那么具体来说。
What other knowledge or resourcing can we offer to the people who we do want using our product that's going to be really instrumental for them and can we convene them around that idea?"
我们还可以向那些我们确实希望使用我们产品的人提供哪些其他知识或资源，这对他们来说确实很有帮助，我们可以围绕这个想法召集他们吗？”
Lenny: I'm noticing a strong correlation between legendary generational companies, Figma, Stripe, Notion and community efforts and building community.
Lenny：我注意到传奇一代公司 Figma、Stripe、Notion 与社区努力和社区建设之间存在很强的相关性。
That's interesting.
那很有意思。
Camille Ricketts: Yes.
卡米尔·里基茨：是的。
I'm a big proponent.
我是一个大力支持者。
At the same time I don't think that community is right for every company.
同时，我认为社区并不适合所有公司。
I think that there is definitely an analysis to run on that.
我认为肯定需要对此进行分析。
But hopefully this is helpful for those who can identify that those are attributes they have.
但希望这对那些能够识别出这些是他们所拥有的属性的人有所帮助。
Lenny: To pull on a thread there, what are maybe thoughts for when it probably doesn't make sense to invest a lot of efforts into building a community around your product?
Lenny：拉个话题，当投入大量精力围绕你的产品建立社区可能没有意义时，你可能会想到什么？
We talked a little bit about high-end enterprise products.
我们讨论了一些高端企业产品。
Is there anything else that just like, man, it's probably not worth your time?
还有其他什么事情就像，伙计，这可能不值得你花时间吗？
Camille Ricketts: Like I said, if it's more of a sales led culture that you have, which is definitely true of products that are a little bit pricier or that require longer contracts, so understanding that.
卡米尔·里基茨（Camille Ricketts）：就像我说的，如果您拥有更多以销售为主导的文化，那么对于价格稍高或需要更长合同的产品来说绝对是这样，所以请理解这一点。
But I do think the community takes on different forms and I think when you hear the word community, you think of a big forum of some type, whether it's a Slack instance or something else where people are chatting away all day long.
但我确实认为社区有不同的形式，我认为当你听到社区这个词时，你会想到某种类型的大型论坛，无论是 Slack 实例还是人们整天聊天的其他东西。
And I don't think it has to be that.
我认为不一定是这样。
That's not the only representation of it.
这并不是它的唯一表现。
So if you think about what is going to be right for you at any given time, I actually created this two by two matrix, which maybe I'll share with you after this.
因此，如果您考虑在任何给定时间什么对您来说是正确的，我实际上创建了这个二乘二矩阵，也许我会在这之后与您分享。
And on the axis you have, whether you have hit product market fit or if you're still exploring product market set and then whether you're strongly enterprise or strongly consumer.
在你所拥有的轴上，无论你是否已经达到了产品市场契合度，或者你是否仍在探索产品市场，然后你是强烈的企业还是强烈的消费者。
And based on where you land in that two by two matrix, there's a form of community or a community related initiative that could be right for you.
根据您在二乘二矩阵中的位置，有一种社区形式或与社区相关的计划可能适合您。
Camille Ricketts: So just to give you an example of maybe an extremely different form factor from Notion, let's say that you're still on your way to product market fit and you're a strongly enterprise oriented product.
Camille Ricketts：所以，为了给您提供一个可能与 Notion 截然不同的外形规格的示例，假设您仍在产品市场适应过程中，并且您是一款强烈面向企业的产品。
I think that you have the opportunity to do customer advisory boards, which is really convening even smaller circles of ideal fit users and making sure that they are connected to each other as well as you, and then incentivize to provide you with feedback.
我认为你有机会建立客户咨询委员会，这实际上是召集更小的理想适合用户圈子，并确保他们以及你彼此之间的联系，然后激励向你提供反馈。
Understanding that they're really on the ground floor of this journey with you and that they're going to be able to have influence over whatever you do in the future.
了解他们确实与您一起处于这段旅程的底层，并且他们将能够对您未来所做的任何事情产生影响。
Those folks can end up growing into your biggest evangelists and I've seen that happen a number of times and I would still consider that community even though maybe that is not what comes to mind for folks.
这些人最终可能会成长为你最大的传道者，我已经多次看到这种情况发生，我仍然会考虑这个社区，尽管这可能不是人们想到的。
Lenny: Well I imagine that becomes the seed of a community that you eventually build.
莱尼：嗯，我想这会成为你最终建立的社区的种子。
Let's definitely link to this in the show notes.
让我们在演出笔记中明确链接到这一点。
Can you give maybe a couple more examples of this grid?
你能再举几个这个网格的例子吗？
So that was pre-product market fit and then what was the other?
那么这是产品前的市场契合度，那么另一个是什么？
Lenny: Enterprise.
莱尼：企业。
Okay, cool.
好吧，酷。
Yeah, what are a couple other of the elements of this grid?
是的，这个网格的其他元素是什么？
Camille Ricketts: So if you're strongly enterprise and you have product market fit, let's say, this is something that Notion has really benefited from, but really emphasizing the champions in the consultants communities.
Camille Ricketts：因此，如果您有很强的企业精神，并且您的产品适合市场，那么可以说，Notion 确实从中受益，但真正强调的是顾问社区中的拥护者。
So the folks who, like I said, may be inside of your customers who really get it, really get your value, really are excited to help you land and expand perhaps inside of their companies, making sure that they have a place to gather and a place to feel like they are more connected with your team than the average person gets to be.
因此，就像我说的那样，那些真正理解你的客户、真正理解你的价值的人，真的很高兴能帮助你在他们的公司内部落地和扩张，确保他们有一个聚集的地方，有一个让他们感觉与你的团队联系比普通人更紧密的地方。
That they are special and that they have access.
他们是特别的并且他们有机会。
And then on the consultant side, like I said, just making it really easy, removing friction, helping promote the folks who want to be out there, helping you succeed with more customers.
然后在顾问方面，就像我说的那样，让事情变得非常简单，消除摩擦，帮助提拔那些想要在那里的人，帮助你在更多客户中取得成功。
Like Salesforce.
就像 Salesforce 一样。
I know that this is a golden oldie of an example, but if you talk to anybody who was really early at Salesforce, they really went into this where they saw people emerging who wanted to help other companies.
我知道这是一个经典的例子，但如果你和 Salesforce 早期的任何人交谈，他们确实进入了这个领域，他们看到人们正在涌现想要帮助其他公司的人。
This layer of people who didn't work at Salesforce but saw the opportunity to help other companies actually succeed with it, implement it, grow with it, and that's become a massive part of Salesforce's model.
这一层人虽然没有在 Salesforce 工作，但看到了帮助其他公司真正成功、实施它、与之共同成长的机会，这已经成为 Salesforce 模式的重要组成部分。
And so if you're in that quadrant, figuring out how to start moving people in your customer base into those categories.
因此，如果您位于该象限，请弄清楚如何开始将客户群中的人员转移到这些类别中。
Lenny: This is awesome.
莱尼：这太棒了。
Maybe let's do one more of this grid and then we'll leave one for people to click into and check it out.
也许我们可以再做一个这个网格，然后我们会留下一个供人们点击查看。
Camille Ricketts: I'll talk about Notion's quadrant, which is the one that I would put up and to the right, which is you have product market fit and you're maybe a little bit closer to the consumer side of the spectrum.
Camille Ricketts：我会谈谈 Notion 的象限，这就是我要放在右边的象限，即你有适合市场的产品，并且你可能更接近消费者一侧。
Obviously Notion runs the full gamut, but I would say especially early on I think that that's where we saw things take root and that's where I think ambassadors and influencers really take off.
显然，Notion 涵盖了所有领域，但我想说，尤其是在早期，我认为这就是我们看到事物扎根的地方，也是我认为大使和影响者真正起飞的地方。
Individuals who are going to be extremely vocal, extremely excited, and where you're going to see more of this wildfire spread, at least trying the product, using the product, understanding what the product is.
那些会非常直言不讳、非常兴奋的人，你会看到更多的野火蔓延，至少尝试该产品、使用该产品、了解该产品是什么。
So if you can try to fuel that type of motion if you're in that quadrant, that's helpful.
因此，如果您处于该象限，可以尝试推动这种类型的运动，那会很有帮助。
Lenny: I want to come back to this ambassador program real quick because it feels like something that a lot of people talk about and can do and especially in this quadrant of product market fit and consumer.
莱尼：我想很快回到这个大使计划，因为它感觉就像很多人谈论并且可以做的事情，特别是在产品市场适合度和消费者的象限中。
How does this work?
这是如何运作的？
Is it you select, here's 100 ambassadors we're going to pick because we think they're awesome and they're great examples of people using, say, Notion and then we're just going to provide them with all the help they need to be successful with Notion.
这是您选择的吗？我们将选择 100 名大使，因为我们认为他们非常棒，他们是人们使用 Notion 等的很好的例子，然后我们将为他们提供成功使用 Notion 所需的所有帮助。
How do you think about creating an ambassador program?
您如何看待创建大使计划？
Camille Ricketts: I actually think it's pretty analogous to when you're thinking about positioning your company because I think the best first step for any positioning exercise is to think who are our best fit customers?
Camille Ricketts：实际上，我认为这与您考虑对公司进行定位时非常相似，因为我认为任何定位练习的最佳第一步都是考虑谁是我们最适合的客户？
And it's not necessarily who we wish they would be, but it's actually the hard cold reality of who they actually are.
这不一定是我们希望他们成为的人，但这实际上是他们真实身份的冷酷现实。
Where it's like these are the people that seem to be really getting it.
这些人似乎真正明白了这一点。
They're paying us more, they're talking about it just organically.
他们付给我们更多的钱，他们只是有机地谈论它。
So really figuring out everything about who they are and making sure that those are the people that you're actually inviting in early.
因此，真正弄清楚他们是谁，并确保他们是您真正尽早邀请的人。
So the initial base of the ambassadors program which started back in 2019 was just 20 people and they were the 20 people who we happened to see be the most vocal already across Twitter and a couple of other social media platforms because they had that shared quality of wanting to be really vocal and expressive about their experience with the product.
因此，自 2019 年启动的大使计划最初只有 20 人，我们碰巧看到他们是 Twitter 和其他几个社交媒体平台上最敢于发声的 20 人，因为他们都有共同的品质，都希望真正发声并表达自己的产品体验。
So that would be my advice for how to get one of these rolling.
这就是我关于如何让其中之一滚动的建议。
Lenny: And then what do you do for them?
莱尼：那你为他们做什么呢？
Camille Ricketts: Definitely making sure that there's enough incentive built in, right?
Camille Ricketts：绝对要确保有足够的激励措施，对吧？
Because like we said, it's not meant to be a transactional relationship, but we want them to feel like they are having a special experience, that they are connected with the company in a unique way.
因为就像我们说的，这并不意味着是一种交易关系，但我们希望他们感觉自己正在经历特殊的体验，他们以独特的方式与公司联系在一起。
And it was so interesting to us how giving them the preview of features was so motivating to them and being able to use them and then give us feedback and feel really heard by the product team.
我们非常感兴趣的是，为他们提供功能预览对他们来说是如此激励，并且能够使用它们，然后向我们提供反馈，并感受到产品团队真正听到了他们的声音。
So that was a big area of focus and I know that that still is and it's become even more of a robust conversation between the community and the team at Notion itself.
所以这是一个重要的关注领域，我知道现在仍然如此，而且它已经成为社区和 Notion 本身团队之间更加活跃的对话。
Camille Ricketts: And then also we would do these very special experiences where Ivan or Akshay or Simon or MLM who's the head of engineering there would be available for these conversations where they would answer questions and it would feel like a very proprietary space.
Camille Ricketts：然后我们也会进行这些非常特殊的体验，其中工程主管 Ivan 或 Akshay 或 Simon 或 MLM 可以参与这些对话，他们会回答问题，感觉就像一个非常专有的空间。
I think that that was really interesting to people.
我认为这对人们来说真的很有趣。
And then of course the things that you would suspect around subsidizing events.
当然，还有您可能会怀疑资助活动的事情。
Making sure that people felt that they were actually supported by us to throw these events.
确保人们感到我们实际上支持他们举办这些活动。
And then also promoting their work.
然后还宣传他们的工作。
So if you look back at the social media channels, so much of the focus is on putting the creations of the people we were working with front and center as opposed to talking about just what the company was up to.
因此，如果你回顾一下社交媒体渠道，就会发现，大部分注意力都集中在与我们一起工作的人们的创作上，而不是仅仅谈论公司在做什么。
Lenny: Have you ever written about just how to design an ambassador program or has anyone written about how Notion did this?
Lenny：您是否曾写过有关如何设计大使计划的文章，或者是否有人写过有关 Notion 是如何做到这一点的文章？
Because this is really interesting.
因为这真的很有趣。
Camille Ricketts: I don't know if anything has been written or went into all of this detail, but it was truly one of the more magical and I think still is one of the more magical parts of this entire endeavor.
卡米尔·里基茨（Camille Ricketts）：我不知道是否已经写过任何内容或涉及所有这些细节，但这确实是更神奇的部分之一，我认为仍然是整个努力中更神奇的部分之一。
And now that team is three people.
现在这个团队是三个人。
So Ben who's still there doing amazing things, Francisco who joined us in 2021.
Ben 仍然在那里做着令人惊奇的事情，Francisco 于 2021 年加入我们。
Or sorry at the end of 2020.
或者在2020年底抱歉。
And then Emma.
然后是艾玛。
And they are just all day every day talking to people around the whole world.
他们每天都在与世界各地的人们交谈。
The international component of this is also just completely wild to see.
其中的国际成分也令人难以置信。
Lenny: This could be a future First Round Review post, which we'll talk a bit about.
Lenny：这可能是未来的第一轮审核帖子，我们将对此进行一些讨论。
Lenny: Last question about this segment.
Lenny：关于这个部分的最后一个问题。
Say someone is convinced they want to start investing in community and we talked about this two by two, but maybe just broadly if you had to boil it down to two or three pieces of advice for founders, for teams thinking about investing in community led growth and community in general, what would be some of those pieces of advice?
假设有人确信他们想要开始投资社区，我们两两讨论了这个问题，但也许只是笼统地说，如果你必须将其归结为给创始人的两到三条建议，对于考虑投资社区主导增长和一般社区的团队来说，这些建议会是什么？
Camille Ricketts: I don't know if you want to link to this in the show notes as well, but I actually put together some commandments for community builders.
Camille Ricketts：我不知道您是否也想在节目笔记中链接到此内容，但实际上我为社区建设者整理了一些戒律。
Camille Ricketts: Some alliteration.
卡米尔·里基茨：一些头韵。
So the thing that I think were very defining for us early on, I already mentioned something about this, but not trying to hit a number early on.
因此，我认为早期对我们来说非常重要的事情，我已经提到了一些相关内容，但并没有试图尽早达到一个数字。
So don't dilute the impact of what it is that you're trying to do in order to show growth.
因此，不要淡化你为了展示增长而尝试做的事情的影响。
I think that that's very important to protect yourself early on.
我认为尽早保护自己非常重要。
So making sure that you are learning what individuals really want out of this and making them feel like they're very seen and very heard.
因此，请确保您了解人们真正想要从中得到什么，并让他们感觉自己被广泛关注和倾听。
That was a big area of focus and I think it's what kept people really engaged and coming back and feeling like this was a secondary family for them.
这是一个很大的关注领域，我认为这让人们真正参与其中，并在回来时感觉这对他们来说是第二个家庭。
And then one of the things that was most interesting to us that once we started sharing what was going on in the community with folks at Notion.
然后，我们最感兴趣的事情之一是，当我们开始与 Notion 的人们分享社区中正在发生的事情时。
So we would do this during all Hands meetings or on Slack, Ben would post these really incredible updates of just all of the activities of people in the community and what they were up to every month.
因此，我们会在所有 Hands 会议期间或 Slack 上执行此操作，Ben 会发布这些非常令人难以置信的更新，内容涉及社区中人们的所有活动以及他们每个月的活动。
Camille Ricketts: And it was just so inspiring for everybody inside the company that I think it all rallied us to do even more, I guess, day to day and really understand who it was we were building for.
卡米尔·里基茨（Camille Ricketts）：这对公司内部的每个人来说都是如此鼓舞人心，我想这一切都让我们团结起来，日复一日地做更多的事情，并真正了解我们是为谁而建。
Lenny: Is there any other commandments you would add for if you already have a community going?
Lenny：如果你已经有一个社区了，你还有其他的戒律要补充吗？
If you have something bubbling for things you should do to keep it healthy and consistently good and growing?
如果你有一些正在冒泡的事情，你应该做些什么来保持它的健康、持续良好和成长？
Camille Ricketts: Yeah.
卡米尔·里基茨：是的。
I mean this is going to be a little contrarian perhaps, and I mean this is just one data point for me, but not growing it so big so fast.
我的意思是，这可能会有点逆势，我的意思是这对我来说只是一个数据点，但不会让它增长得这么快。
One thing that we actually thought about pretty carefully was what a rate of healthy growth would be.
我们实际上仔细考虑过的一件事是健康增长率是多少。
So there actually is an application process for joining the ambassadors.
所以实际上有一个加入大使的申请流程。
It's a very light application process and it really is just so that we know how many people are interested in this.
这是一个非常简单的申请过程，实际上只是为了让我们知道有多少人对此感兴趣。
And then they're inducted around ...
然后他们被引入周围......
I think at the time it was 20 people at a time every month.
我想当时每个月一次有20个人。
So that it wouldn't feel like all of a sudden this had changed in terms of how the interactions were feeling, but rather gave everybody time to welcome the new people in and get to know them.
这样一来，就不会感觉互动的感觉突然发生了变化，而是让每个人都有时间欢迎新人加入并了解他们。
And one of Ben and I's favorite things ever about working at Notion I think was when we would induct new people into the ambassadors and they would introduce themselves and say, "Hey, I am from Venezuela and here's the ways in which notion has changed my life."
我和本在 Notion 工作时最喜欢的一件事是，我们会引入新人担任大使，他们会自我介绍并说：“嘿，我来自委内瑞拉，这就是 notion 改变我生活的方式。”
Camille Ricketts: "I'm from Hong Kong and here's how it's changed my life." And all of that was just so fulfilling.
Camille Ricketts：“我来自香港，这就是它如何改变了我的生活。”所有这一切都是那么令人满足。
That would be the number one thing I would say is give your community time to actually grow in what feels like an organic fashion as well.
我要说的第一件事就是给你的社区时间，让他们以一种有机的方式真正成长。
Because I think ironically, and then I'll stop rambling about this, but if you grow to something like, oh we have 5,000 ambassadors, which feels really good to say on a website, the conversation is actually very muted.
因为我觉得很讽刺，然后我就不再胡言乱语了，但如果你发展到类似，哦，我们有 5,000 名大使，在网站上说这感觉真的很好，对话实际上非常安静。
I think because people feel like they're speaking to an auditorium whenever they say anything.
我想是因为人们无论何时说话都会感觉自己是在礼堂里讲话。
I think it's because you don't really have a sense of who else is there with you.
我认为这是因为你并没有真正意识到还有谁和你在一起。
So helping to defray those concerns I think is a good course of action.
因此，我认为帮助消除这些担忧是一个很好的行动方案。
Lenny: I've seen the same thing with the growth rate being really important with my newsletter Slack community.
Lenny：我也看到了同样的情况，我的时事通讯 Slack 社区的增长率非常重要。
I think most listeners probably know this, but if you're a paid newsletter subscriber, you get access to the Slack community.
我想大多数听众可能都知道这一点，但如果您是付费时事通讯订阅者，您就可以访问 Slack 社区。
There's about 10,000 people in there.
里面大约有一万人。
And I find the filter of people that are willing to pay for content like a newsletter is a really good filter for awesome people.
我发现愿意为时事通讯等内容付费的人的过滤器对于优秀的人来说是一个非常好的过滤器。
And so it ends up slowing growth in a really healthy way and then just creating this filter of the people that really want to self-improve and value the sort of thing join, and it becomes a really amazing group of people.
因此，它最终会以一种非常健康的方式减缓增长，然后创建一个过滤器，过滤掉那些真正想要自我完善和重视加入的人，它就成为了一个非常了不起的群体。
Camille Ricketts: Yeah.
卡米尔·里基茨：是的。
It feels like such a ...
感觉就像是这样一个...
I don't know.
我不知道。
There's an emotional quality to it I think when that's the case.
我认为在这种情况下，这是一种情感品质。
And all of those people end up being so incredibly impactful.
所有这些人最终都具有令人难以置信的影响力。
The last point I'll make about community at Notion is that a lot of those people, and we actually ended up launching I think a channel for folks who wanted to do this in particular, but run communities external to Notion's actual owned communities.
关于 Notion 社区，我要说的最后一点是，很多人，我认为我们实际上最终为那些特别想要这样做的人推出了一个渠道，但在 Notion 实际拥有的社区之外运行社区。
So you end up with Facebook groups that have ...
所以你最终会得到 Facebook 群组，其中有......
I think Notion in Vietnam has like 250,000 members.
我认为越南的 Notion 大约有 250,000 名会员。
Or the subreddit, which I now know has 210,000 people in the Notion subreddit.
或者 Reddit 子版块，我现在知道 Notion 子版块有 210,000 人。
And those are all run and moderated by community members who just love running their own communities.
这些都是由热衷于管理自己社区的社区成员来管理和管理的。
Lenny: I feel like you've achieved your OKRs of ubiquity of Notion.
Lenny：我觉得你已经实现了概念无处不在的 OKR。
Camille Ricketts: Yes.
卡米尔·里基茨：是的。
It was always a value at Notion to make sure that we were reaching as many people as possible.
确保我们接触到尽可能多的人一直是 Notion 的价值观。
Lenny: It's working.
莱尼： 正在工作。
One tactical question.
一个战术问题。
Where does the own community of Notion live?
Notion 自己的社区住在哪里？
Is it a Slack?
它是松弛吗？
Is it an online thing you've built yourself?
这是你自己建立的在线东西吗？
Camille Ricketts: It is in Slack.
Camille Ricketts：在 Slack 中。
And the thinking there, and it still is, was that we really just wanted to be in the course of people's everyday lives.
我们的想法是，现在仍然如此，我们真的只是想融入人们的日常生活中。
We didn't want to be this other destination that you would have to make a point to going to every day.
我们不想成为您每天都必须要去的另一个目的地。
Lenny: That's exactly how I thought about it with my newsletter Slack community.
Lenny：这正是我在时事通讯 Slack 社区中的想法。
PMs and founders, they're already in Slack all day.
产品经理和创始人，他们已经整天都在 Slack 里了。
And just that badge, being on the app telling them there's something to check is such a powerful feature versus download a whole new app or go to a whole new website, you're never going to go there.
只是那个徽章，在应用程序上告诉他们有一些东西需要检查，这是一个非常强大的功能，而不是下载一个全新的应用程序或访问一个全新的网站，你永远不会去那里。
It has to be 10 times better to pull you to a whole new site and change your habits.
将您带到一个全新的网站并改变您的习惯必须要好 10 倍。
Lenny: I'm glad we're all on Slack.
Lenny：我很高兴我们都使用 Slack。
Slack's so underrated.
Slack 被严重低估了。
I feel like people hate on Slack all the time, but it's such a good product.
我觉得人们一直讨厌 Slack，但它是一个很好的产品。
Camille Ricketts: We all love it.
卡米尔·里基茨：我们都喜欢它。
It's just becomes something we take for granted in the background there.
这只是我们在背景中认为理所当然的事情。
Lenny: Yeah, exactly.
莱尼：是的，完全正确。
Okay.
好的。
This is a good time to shift to our second topic, which is around content and content marketing.
现在是转向我们的第二个主题的好时机，该主题围绕内容和内容营销。
So you started the First Round Review at First Round?
那么你们在第一轮就开始了第一轮审核吗？
Lenny: I don't know if you know this, but First Round Review was a big part of my early trajectory with this newsletter life.
莱尼：我不知道你是否知道这一点，但第一轮审查是我早期通讯生活轨迹的重要组成部分。
I did a guest post in the First Round Review and that was-
我在第一轮评论中发表了一篇客座文章，那就是-
Lenny: That was a huge deal for me.
莱尼：这对我来说意义重大。
That was my first 500 subscribers to my newsletter.
这是我的时事通讯的前 500 名订阅者。
Lenny: Then I did another guest post down the road, but that was not as important.
莱尼：然后我又做了另一篇客座文章，但这并不那么重要。
It was a big part of my early path down this life.
这是我早期人生道路的重要组成部分。
And so thank you for creating that platform.
感谢您创建这个平台。
I was very honored to be involved.
我非常荣幸能够参与其中。
Camille Ricketts: That's fantastic to hear and exactly what we wanted to have happen.
Camille Ricketts：听到这个消息真是太棒了，这正是我们想要发生的事情。
Just extraordinary operators being given a platform and then using it to do whatever it is that they wanted to do.
只是为非凡的运营商提供了一个平台，然后用它来做他们想做的任何事情。
That was part of the dream always.
这一直是梦想的一部分。
Camille Ricketts: Yeah.
卡米尔·里基茨：是的。
I'm thrilled because now people are learning so much from you.
我很兴奋，因为现在人们从你身上学到了很多东西。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
It's an inspiration for where when I started too, just I wish I could be as good as the First Round Review and the stuff just keeps coming and coming.
这对我开始的时候也是一个启发，只是我希望我能像第一轮审查一样好，而且这些东西不断涌现。
It's amazing.
太棒了。
And I know other folks run it now.
我知道现在其他人也在运行它。
I don't know if they want to be named.
我不知道他们是否愿意透露姓名。
They like to be behind the scenes.
他们喜欢在幕后。
Camille Ricketts: They do, but I'm going to shout them out anyway because they do such an extraordinary job.
卡米尔·里基茨（Camille Ricketts）：他们确实这么做了，但无论如何我都会大声喊出来，因为他们做得非常出色。
I mean, Jessi Craige Shikman over there has been doing this now for longer than I did and she is absolutely incredible and her team is extraordinary and I don't miss it every single time it comes out.
我的意思是，杰西·克雷格·希克曼（Jessi Craige Shikman）在那边做这件事的时间比我长，她绝对令人难以置信，她的团队也很出色，我不会错过每次它的出现。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
I tried to thank her my post.
我试图通过我的帖子感谢她。
She's like, "Don't mention that.
她说：“别提这个了。
I'm behind the scenes."
我在幕后。”
Lenny: We have to give her some cred somehow.
莱尼：我们必须以某种方式给她一些信任。
Camille Ricketts: Yeah, absolutely.
卡米尔·里基茨：是的，绝对是。
She deserves it.
她应得的。
Lenny: So kind of zooming out, content marketing, maybe just to give some examples of just what are some of the most impactful things you've been a part of that come from creating content?
莱尼：内容营销有点缩小，也许只是举一些例子，说明您参与的内容创作中最有影响力的事情是什么？
Whether it's Notion, First Round, anywhere else, what are some examples?
无论是 Notion、First Round 还是其他地方，有哪些例子？
Camille Ricketts: Yeah, I'll give a few examples.
卡米尔·里基茨：是的，我举几个例子。
Obviously First Round is a huge example and so I'd be remiss in not going into some detail there.
显然，第一轮是一个巨大的例子，所以如果我不详细讨论那里的细节，那就是我的疏忽了。
And truly that was a team effort from the very beginning.
事实上，这从一开始就是团队的努力。
I joined in 2013 and again, I was just so fortunate to work with a leader who believed in it from the very beginning.
我于 2013 年加入，再次，我很幸运能与一位从一开始就坚信这一点的领导者一起工作。
Josh Kopelman, who's the partner there who was just a massive supporter of mine.
乔什·科佩尔曼（Josh Kopelman）是那里的合伙人，也是我的大力支持者。
Phin Barnes on the partnership team.
合伙人团队中的菲恩·巴恩斯 (Phin Barnes)。
But then particularly Brett Burson who was running the platform team, which is where all of these value added services lived.
但特别是负责平台团队的布雷特·博森(Brett Burson)，所有这些增值服务都集中在这个平台上。
Camille Ricketts: So it was me and an events person and the talent person and Brett just gave us all of the runway and all of the belief and support that we needed.
卡米尔·里基茨（Camille Ricketts）：所以是我、一名活动人员和人才，布雷特给了我们所有的跑道以及我们需要的所有信念和支持。
And he was really bullish on content and really helped from the beginning, connecting me with incredible interview subjects.
他非常看好内容，从一开始就给了我很大帮助，将我与令人难以置信的采访主题联系起来。
Because this whole thing, the only reason I think it survived and did as well as it did is that we were able to land a few really big names at the very beginning.
因为这整件事，我认为它能够幸存下来并且表现得这么好的唯一原因是我们在一开始就能够找到一些真正的大牌。
And then of course that helps you down the road whenever you're trying to convince anyone else to do it because you say so and so and so and so have already been featured.
当然，每当你试图说服其他人这样做时，这都会帮助你前进，因为你说某某某已经被推荐了。
So that was I think just a big point of confidence and also tactically, for anyone out there thinking about it, if they can leverage whatever connections they have in that vein.
所以我认为，对于任何正在思考这个问题的人来说，如果他们能够利用他们在这方面所拥有的任何联系，那么这就是一个很大的信心和战术。
Lenny: I was at dinner with Brett yesterday.
莱尼：昨天我和布雷特一起吃晚饭。
Lenny: First Round event.
莱尼：第一轮比赛。
What a guy.
真是个家伙啊。
That guy's amazing.
那家伙太棒了。
I'm a huge fan.
我是它的超级粉丝。
He's built an incredible platform and program at First Round.
他在第一轮建立了一个令人难以置信的平台和计划。
Camille Ricketts: And he's one of the people that I've learned the most from, certainly.
卡米尔·里基茨：当然，他是我从他身上学到最多的人之一。
But more specific to your question around what the content program was able to do there, certainly discovery of First Round.
但更具体地说，你的问题是内容程序在那里能够做什么，当然是第一轮的发现。
I think prior to that it was a very successful VC fund, but I think we got in front of all kinds of people, particularly in non-traditional geographies or non-traditional founder types or all of that.
我认为在此之前，这是一个非常成功的风险投资基金，但我认为我们站在了各种各样的人面前，特别是在非传统地域或非传统创始人类型或所有这些人面前。
People who are inside large companies like Google, Apple, Amazon, whenever we would look at our list of subscribers, we had an disproportionate number of email addresses within those companies that were clearly curious about the startup experience.
对于谷歌、苹果、亚马逊等大公司内部的人来说，每当我们查看我们的订阅者列表时，我们都会发现这些公司中的电子邮件地址数量明显对创业体验感到好奇。
And I think First Round Review was helpful in moving them more toward that mindset and then them obviously understanding that First Round would be a great first stop for them.
我认为第一轮审查有助于让他们更加倾向于这种心态，然后他们显然明白第一轮对他们来说将是一个很好的第一站。
Lenny: What would you say is key to content being valuable?
Lenny：您认为内容有价值的关键是什么？
So you're talking about the First Round Review became really effective for people learning about First Round, working with First Round, discovery of First Round, but it's not just with content you just write some stuff and it works.
所以你说的第一轮审查对于人们了解第一轮、使用第一轮、发现第一轮来说非常有效，但这不仅仅是内容，你只需写一些东西就可以了。
It doesn't work that way.
事实并非如此。
What have you learned about just what do you have to get right?
关于必须做对的事情，您学到了什么？
You mentioned have names people recognize.
你提到有人们认识的名字。
Is there anything else you've learned over the years of just like, here's what we need to get right if you're trying to use content as a way to create discovery and awareness of your stuff?
多年来您还学到了什么吗？就像，如果您尝试使用内容来创造对您的内容的发现和认识，那么这就是我们需要做对的事情？
Camille Ricketts: This is something that I think we chatted about briefly, but the way that you think about product market fit, you have to think about content market fit.
卡米尔·里基茨：我想我们简短地讨论过这一点，但是在考虑产品市场契合度的方式时，你必须考虑内容市场契合度。
So even though content feels like it's running adjacent to the actual product that you're putting out there, you still have to think about who is my audience?
因此，即使内容感觉与您发布的实际产品相邻，您仍然需要考虑谁是我的受众？
Who is the audience that I really want to have?
谁是我真正想要的观众？
Who is the audience that is going to be drawn to this most?
谁是最能吸引观众的观众？
Who are they?
他们是谁？
What is it that they really need in their lives?
他们生活中真正需要的是什么？
Even abstracting content from it at all.
甚至从其中提取内容。
What is it that they need to get promoted?
他们需要晋升的是什么？
What is it that they need to avoid failure?
他们需要什么来避免失败？
What is it that causes them a great deal of anxiety in the day-to-day of their lives or their work?
是什么让他们在日常生活或工作中感到极大的焦虑？
And can you create some type of content product that is going to address this for them and is actually going to have that value?
您能否创建某种类型的内容产品来为他们解决这个问题并且实际上具有该价值？
Camille Ricketts: So I think approaching content the way that you would a product in a lot of ways is very instructive way to sort of start hashing out your strategy.
Camille Ricketts：所以我认为在很多方面像对待产品一样对待内容对于开始制定策略是非常有启发性的。
Starting with your audience, understanding their big needs.
从您的受众开始，了解他们的大需求。
You've heard this, I'm sure, and most of your audience has, but there's the vitamin versus painkiller dichotomy.
我相信你已经听过这个，大多数观众也都听过，但维生素与止痛药之间存在着二分法。
And painkillers always win.
止痛药总是获胜。
So can your content be a painkiller?
那么你的内容可以成为止痛药吗？
Can it help people out of situations that are causing them a lot of pain?
它可以帮助人们摆脱给他们带来巨大痛苦的情况吗？
Can it help people stop being so confused or can it make them even feel less alone in their experience?
它可以帮助人们不再感到困惑，或者可以让他们在经历中感到不那么孤独吗？
That was a big one for First Round Review is helping operators share failures or suboptimal situations in the spirit of helping many other people feel like that was normalized and that the experiences they were having weren't as dire as maybe they had thought.
第一轮审查的一个重要任务是帮助运营商分享失败或次优情况，本着帮助许多其他人感觉这种情况已经正常化并且他们所经历的经历并不像他们想象的那么可怕的精神。
Lenny: I love that.
莱尼：我喜欢这个。
It connects so much with the way I think about writing.
它与我思考写作的方式有很大关系。
I use the jobs to be done framework a little bit here where I'm just like, what job am I doing when I'm writing a post?
我在这里使用了一些待完成的工作框架，我想，当我写一篇文章时我在做什么工作？
And you tell me if this makes sense to you, but I feel like there's four jobs to be done of a newsletter.
你告诉我这对你来说是否有意义，但我觉得新闻通讯有四项工作要做。
Either how people make money.
不管人们如何赚钱。
There's newsletters, here's how to invest, here's how to buy Bitcoin and win.
这里有时事通讯，这里有如何投资，这里有如何购买比特币并获胜。
How people make money.
人们如何赚钱。
Entertain people.
娱乐人们。
There's a lot of funny things, memes and cartoons and things like that.
有很多有趣的东西，模因和卡通等等。
How people get better at their work or life, which is the category we're in.
人们如何在工作或生活中变得更好，这就是我们所处的类别。
And then inform people.
然后通知人们。
Like news.
就像新闻一样。
Camille Ricketts: Yes.
卡米尔·里基茨：是的。
What they didn't know before.
他们之前不知道的事情。
Yeah.
是的。
Lenny: And it feels like you got to do really well.
莱尼：感觉你必须做得很好。
You got to pick which bucket you're in.
你必须选择你属于哪个桶。
And let me know if you can think of any others because these are the four that I always come back to.
如果您能想到其他的，请告诉我，因为这是我经常提到的四个。
And then pick your bucket and then it's be the best at that thing in your category.
然后选择你的桶，然后它就会成为你所在类别中最好的。
The way I think about it.
我的想法是这样的。
Camille Ricketts: I love that listing out of those and also the acknowledgement that there are emotional jobs to be done.
卡米尔·里基茨（Camille Ricketts）：我喜欢列出这些内容，也喜欢承认有很多情感工作要做。
That there are not just utilitarian jobs to be done.
不仅仅是功利性的工作要做。
It's not just, you didn't know this before and now you do, but it's like you felt this way before and now you don't or you do.
这不仅仅是你以前不知道，现在你知道了，而是就像你以前有过这种感觉，现在你不知道或者你知道了。
And I think that that's underestimated.
我认为这被低估了。
So I love that you called out entertaining people because we're all working in an industry where it's wonderful to interact with some of that sparkle and levity.
所以我喜欢你叫来娱乐人们，因为我们都在一个与一些闪闪发光和轻松的人互动的行业中工作。
So I love that approach.
所以我喜欢这种方法。
Lenny: And something else that goes unsaid I think in the way you talked about this is just putting in the time to make it really high quality.
莱尼：还有一些没有说出来的事情，我认为按照你所说的方式，就是投入时间来使其达到真正的高质量。
If you look at a First Round post, how much time would you say goes into in the typical First Round Review post?
如果您查看第一轮帖子，您会说典型的第一轮评论帖子会花费多少时间？
Camille Ricketts: Oh gosh.
卡米尔·里基茨：哦天哪。
Here's where I'm going to shout out my writing partner at First Round, Sean Young, who was there with me for most of my time there and he and I would always, always talk about this.
在这里，我要大声喊出我在第一轮的写作搭档肖恩·杨(Sean Young)，他在我的大部分时间里都和我在一起，他和我总是、总是谈论这个。
But it would take eight hours to just write the thing.
但光是写这个东西就需要八个小时。
And that's after you had done all of the prep work of making sure that your interviewee was feeling really anchored and understanding a topic that you were both really excited about and making sure you were mining all of the tactical gems from that conversation.
那是在你完成所有准备工作之后，确保你的受访者感到真正锚定并理解一个你们都非常兴奋的话题，并确保你从这次谈话中挖掘了所有的战术瑰宝。
And then you would start writing and that would be another eight hours.
然后你就开始写作，这又是八个小时。
I don't know if that's your experience, but certainly was ours.
我不知道这是否是你的经历，但肯定是我们的经历。
Lenny: Yeah, very similar.
莱尼：是的，非常相似。
I don't tie myself, but I feel like the median time to write a post for me is about 10 hours.
我不束缚自己，但我觉得我写一篇文章的平均时间大约是 10 个小时。
Lenny: And that's I think the key that a lot of people don't think about.
莱尼：我认为这是很多人没有想到的关键。
One is they don't have the time, and two, they don't realize they should spend this much time because the bar's so high for content on the internet as we all know.
一是他们没有时间，二是他们没有意识到自己应该花这么多时间，因为众所周知，互联网上的内容门槛太高了。
There's so much stuff out there.
那里有很多东西。
And so to get above that noise you have to really make it really good and that just takes time.
因此，为了克服这些噪音，你必须真正把它做得很好，而这需要时间。
And I find this really strong correlation between the time it takes me to write a post and how well it does.
我发现我写一篇文章所花费的时间和它的效果之间有很强的相关性。
It's very highly correlated.
这是非常高度相关的。
And the advantage folks like say the First Round Review have and I have is I do this and there's a team doing this.
人们喜欢说第一轮审查和我所拥有的优势是我做这件事并且有一个团队在做这件事。
And so people that are doing this on the side, it's much harder because they don't have that time.
对于那些兼职做这件事的人来说，这要困难得多，因为他们没有时间。
Camille Ricketts: It is.
卡米尔·里基茨：是的。
I end up admiring those people a lot where I'm like, how are you doing this?
我最终非常钦佩那些人，我想，你们做得怎么样？
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
They're sacrificing something.
他们正在牺牲一些东西。
Camille Ricketts: Yeah.
卡米尔·里基茨：是的。
But truly, it's a very shared experience with you.
但说实话，这是一次与你们非常共同的经历。
And I think that a lot of that was making connections between the information that you had available from these interviews.
我认为其中很大一部分是在从这些采访中获得的信息之间建立联系。
So not just straight here's what this person said, but how can you draw connections between those things, connect the dots, pull out bigger themes.
因此，不仅仅是这个人所说的，而是如何在这些事物之间建立联系，将各个点连接起来，提出更大的主题。
All of that is really where I think a lot of the time went.
我认为所有这些确实是我花了很多时间的地方。
Lenny: So you said you had this content market fit questionnaire that you talked through.
莱尼：所以你说你有一份内容市场适合度调查问卷，你已经讨论过了。
You're going to send me a link that we can point people to check it out, right?
您要向我发送一个链接，我们可以引导人们查看，对吧？
Camille Ricketts: Absolutely.
卡米尔·里基茨：当然。
A lot of it is about getting to know your audience to an almost beleaguered degree.
其中很大一部分是为了了解你的听众，达到几乎陷入困境的程度。
Lenny: Which is basically what job will you do for them, like you said.
莱尼：就像你说的，这基本上就是你将为他们做的工作。
And so that makes sense.
所以这是有道理的。
Maybe a couple more questions.
也许还有几个问题。
Something that I've noticed a lot, and this is related to content and just PR and stuff like that.
我经常注意到一些事情，这与内容、公关之类的东西有关。
I've noticed a lot of people on Twitter and founders are trying to pitch this idea that you don't need to think about comms and press and PR as much because now you can go direct.
我注意到 Twitter 上的很多人和创始人都在尝试提出这样的想法：你不需要过多考虑通讯、媒体和公关，因为现在你可以直接进行。
You can have a newsletter, you can write, you can tweet, you can LinkedIn.
你可以拥有时事通讯，你可以写作，你可以发推文，你可以LinkedIn。
Do you feel like that is where the future is going for founder press and comms and things like that or do you think you still need to have a really strong comms, press, PR org within your company?
您是否觉得这就是创始人媒体和传播以及类似事物的未来发展方向，或者您认为您的公司内仍然需要拥有一个非常强大的传播、媒体、公关组织？
Camille Ricketts: That's a great question because I think that there's been just a lot of change in this space over the last five years and certainly very strong opinions from all over the ecosystem.
Camille Ricketts：这是一个很好的问题，因为我认为过去五年来这个领域发生了很多变化，当然整个生态系统也提出了非常强烈的意见。
I'm a big believer in comms.
我非常相信通讯。
And I don't just say that because I used to be a journalist or I used to work in comms.
我这么说不仅仅是因为我曾经是一名记者或者我曾经在通讯行业工作过。
But I think that there are very few and far between incredible megaphones for what it is that you or your company is doing where you get to reach such a breadth of people with that stamp of credibility and notice.
但我认为，对于你或你的公司正在做的事情来说，很少有令人难以置信的扩音器，可以让你接触到如此广泛的人，并具有可信度和关注度。
How do you get somebody to say, "Hey, this is really something you should pay attention to."?
你如何让别人说：“嘿，这确实是你应该注意的事情。”？
Obviously I support all of the owned media efforts that are really working and bubbling up.
显然，我支持所有真正有效且正在兴起的自有媒体的努力。
And like I said, influencer I think is going to be a massive shift in how we discover things, but maintaining a wonderful relationship with the press, being straightforward, being that brand that is going to be accessible, I really think that that pays off.
就像我说的，我认为影响者将是我们发现事物方式的巨大转变，但与媒体保持良好的关系，坦率地说，成为一个易于访问的品牌，我真的认为这是有回报的。
Camille Ricketts: And just to give you one example, David Pierce, who I think is one of the best working journalists in tech today, he's at The Verge now.
卡米尔·里基茨（Camille Ricketts）：举个例子，大卫·皮尔斯（David Pierce），我认为他是当今科技领域最优秀的记者之一，他现在在 The Verge。
He was covering personal tech for the Wall Street Journal early on at Notion and published a story that said this is the one work-life productivity app that you'll ever need.
他很早就在 Notion 为《华尔街日报》报道个人技术，并发表了一篇报道，称这是您永远需要的一款工作生活生产力应用程序。
And that was Notion's big break.
这就是Notion 的重大突破。
Truly, if you look back at the graphs, that made a demonstrable difference.
确实，如果你回顾一下这些图表，就会发现明显的差异。
And I've seen that happen time and time again.
我一次又一次地看到这种情况发生。
And one of my other efforts at First Round was helping companies in the portfolio figure out how to DIY comm strategies.
我在 First Round 的另一项工作是帮助投资组合中的公司弄清楚如何 DIY 通信策略。
And I saw this again and again that the companies that did get stories that really told their mission, it made a big difference for just discovery awareness.
我一次又一次地看到，那些确实获得了真正讲述其使命的故事的公司，这对发现意识产生了很大的影响。
The number of people who wanted to be involved with them as candidates, as investors, as customers.
希望作为候选人、投资者和客户参与其中的人数。
Lenny: This gives me a new post idea of just what are the big breaks of companies?
莱尼：这给了我一个新的想法，即公司的重大突破是什么？
What was the moment where they started taking off?
他们开始起飞的那一刻是什么？
Note to self?
给自己做笔记？
Camille Ricketts: Yes.
卡米尔·里基茨：是的。
The other big thing for the Notion was product hunts.
该概念的另一件大事是产品搜寻。
I want to give them-
我想给他们——
Lenny: Oh, okay.
莱尼：哦，好吧。
So posting on Product Hunt, that was a big deal for Notion.
因此，在 Product Hunt 上发帖对于 Notion 来说意义重大。
Camille Ricketts: It was.
卡米尔·里基茨：是的。
And it remains a big deal.
这仍然是一件大事。
If you go on Product Hunt and you type in Notion, you'll see just how many templates have been able to get noted because of Product Hunt.
如果您继续进行 Product Hunt 并输入 Notion，您将看到有多少模板因 Product Hunt 而受到关注。
Lenny: So it's the templates being posted, but then also the launch of Notion on Product Hunt?
Lenny：所以是发布了模板，然后还推出了 Product Hunt 上的 Notion？
Camille Ricketts: Yes.
卡米尔·里基茨：是的。
And Notion 2.0.
还有概念2.0。
And then whenever we would have a major productized launch.
然后每当我们发布重大产品化产品时。
Lenny: Wow, that's awesome.
莱尼：哇，太棒了。
Man, Product Hunt just keeps kicking.
伙计，产品狩猎一直在进行。
Camille Ricketts: Notion AI very recently for them, which couldn't be more exciting.
Camille Ricketts：对于他们来说，Notion AI 是最近才出现的，这真是太令人兴奋了。
Lenny: I have access to that.
莱尼：我有权访问它。
I've been playing around.
我一直在玩。
It's awesome.
太棒了。
Maybe a last question along these lines is thinking about the founders that you've worked with.
也许最后一个问题是想想与你共事过的创始人。
So on the one hand you have Elon who is very direct on Twitter to his audience, and then Ivan feels much less so and more under the radar and doesn't love tweeting a lot.
因此，一方面，埃隆在 Twitter 上对观众非常直接，而伊万则感觉不那么直接，更不那么喜欢发推文。
And then First Round Review somewhere in the middle.
然后在中间的某个地方进行第一轮审查。
Do you have any thoughts on how much a founder should invest in, say, tweeting and going and communicating direct to folk?
对于创始人应该在发推文、直接与人们沟通等方面投入多少，你有什么想法吗？
Or is it more just whatever the founder is, their personality, just go with that?
或者更重要的是，无论创始人是谁，他们的个性，就随它而去？
Camille Ricketts: I really do think it's about personality and what feels authentic.
Camille Ricketts：我确实认为这与个性和真实感有关。
I think that so much of a founder's strength comes from leaning into where they know that they love to work, what they know about themselves.
我认为创始人的力量很大程度上来自于他们知道自己喜欢工作的地方，以及他们对自己的了解。
And I think that one of the biggest mistakes you can make on social media is giving yourself a quota that you have to hit and say, I have to say X number of scintillating things every week on these platforms.
我认为你在社交媒体上可能犯的最大错误之一就是给自己设定一个配额，你必须达到这个配额并说，我每周必须在这些平台上说X数量的精彩内容。
We've just seen so much more traction, even from the main Notion accounts when we're a little bit more reserved and we wait until we have something to say that has value.
我们刚刚看到了更多的吸引力，即使是来自主要的 Notion 账户，当我们更加保守一点，我们等到有有价值的东西要说时。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
Any last closing thoughts before we get to our very exciting lightning round?
在我们进入激动人心的闪电回合之前，还有最后的总结想法吗？
Camille Ricketts: Closing thoughts.
卡米尔·里基茨：结束语。
No, this was a wonderful conversation.
不，这是一次精彩的谈话。
Thank you so much for letting me share.
非常感谢您让我分享。
Truly, I also want to make sure I'm giving a lot of credit away from all the people that I mentioned throughout.
确实，我也想确保我对我在全文中提到的所有人给予了很多信任。
It was all just a major team effort and I've gotten very, very lucky to work with the best people.
这一切都是团队的努力，我非常非常幸运能够与最优秀的人一起工作。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
We'll try to link to all of the people you mentioned in our show notes.
我们将尝试链接到您在演出笔记中提到的所有人员。
We try to do that every time.
我们每次都尝试这样做。
So it'll be a long show notes.
所以这将是一个很长的表演笔记。
And we're not done yet.
我们还没有完成。
We've reached our very exciting lightning round.
我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
I am going to ask you six questions real quick.
我将很快问你六个问题。
Whatever comes to mind, we'll go through it pretty fast.
无论想到什么，我们都会很快完成。
That sound good?
听起来不错吗？
Lenny: Let's go.
莱尼：我们走吧。
No pressure.
没有压力。
What are two to three books that you recommend most, that you've recommended most to other people?
您最常向其他人推荐的两到三本书是什么？
Camille Ricketts: Obviously Awesome by April Dunford.
卡米尔·里基茨（Camille Ricketts）：阿普里尔·邓福德（April Dunford）的《显然太棒了》。
If you're looking to position your company, I don't know if you've read it, but it is a step-by-step guide.
如果您正在寻找公司定位，我不知道您是否读过它，但它是一个分步指南。
It's like 100 pages long.
好像有100页那么长。
Lenny: I've read it.
莱尼：我读过。
She's done a guest post on my newsletter.
她在我的时事通讯上发表了一篇客座文章。
She's been on the podcast.
她一直在播客上。
So all over it.
就这样吧。
Camille Ricketts: Oh, fantastic.
卡米尔·里基茨：哦，太棒了。
She's incredible.
她太不可思议了。
Yes.
是的。
Oh gosh.
哦天哪。
I'm going to have a hard time coming up with two other books that have had that sizable of an impact.
我将很难写出另外两本具有如此大影响力的书。
Lenny: We can keep it to one too.
莱尼：我们也可以将其保留为一。
It's all good.
一切都很好。
Lenny: Yes.
莱尼：是的。
Just the one.
就那一个。
All you need.
所有你需要的。
What's a favorite other podcast that you listen to other than the one you're on currently?
除了当前正在收听的播客之外，您最喜欢听的其他播客是什么？
Camille Ricketts: Harry Stubbings never ceases to amaze me.
卡米尔·里基茨：哈利·斯塔宾斯总是让我感到惊讶。
We've gone on at Notion a couple times and I just really appreciate his approach to mining a lot of incredible information and unexpected stuff.
我们在 Notion 进行过几次交流，我真的很欣赏他挖掘大量令人难以置信的信息和意想不到的东西的方法。
Lenny: Harry Stubbings is the godfather of this podcast because I did his podcast and at the end of it privately he's like, "Lenny, you need to do a podcast, you idiot.
莱尼：哈利·斯塔宾斯是这个播客的教父，因为我做了他的播客，在播客结束时他私下里说，“莱尼，你需要做一个播客，你这个白痴。
Why are you not doing a podcast?" And that got me over the hump and look at us now.
你为什么不做播客？”这让我渡过难关，看看现在的我们。
So yeah, huge shout out to Harry.
所以，是的，向哈利大声喊叫。
Camille Ricketts: I love all of these connections that exists.
Camille Ricketts：我喜欢所有这些存在的联系。
That's wonderful.
太棒了。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
Next question.
下一个问题。
Favorite recent movie or TV show that you've loved?
您最近喜欢的最喜欢的电影或电视节目？
Camille Ricketts: Oh gosh.
卡米尔·里基茨：哦天哪。
Recent.
最近的。
I went to go see Tar, which I know is going to be not everybody's cup of tea, but it was just incredible to watch this performance from Kate Blanchett.
我去看了塔尔，我知道这不会是每个人都喜欢的，但观看凯特·布兰切特的表演真是令人难以置信。
She learned German.
她学了德语。
She learned how to be a credible conductor of a major symphony orchestra.
她学会了如何成为一个大型交响乐团的可靠指挥。
If you want to see a bravura performance, that's the one to see.
如果您想观看一场精彩的表演，那就来看看吧。
And then recent television show I'm watching Fleischman is in Trouble.
最近我正在看的电视节目《弗莱施曼有麻烦》。
I love the book and I just think that the detail and texture of that show is super well done.
我喜欢这本书，我只是认为该剧的细节和质感做得非常好。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
My wife and I have been watching that and it's awesome.
我和我的妻子一直在观看，非常棒。
Last episode was less exciting, so I'm curious where it all goes, but I'm watching.
最后一集不太令人兴奋，所以我很好奇这一切会发生什么，但我正在观看。
Camille Ricketts: Agreeing.
卡米尔·里基茨：同意。
But every time Claire Danes is on screen, I'm riveted.
但每次克莱尔·丹尼斯出现在银幕上时，我都会被吸引。
Yeah.
是的。
Lenny: Favorite interview question that you like to ask folks, either when you're interviewing at a place, hiring, anything that comes to mind.
Lenny：你最喜欢问别人的面试问题，无论是在某个地方面试、招聘还是任何想到的事情。
Camille Ricketts: Yeah.
卡米尔·里基茨：是的。
The one thing that was really helpful, because we used to do this thing at First Round Review where we would explore topics and be like, how do we get to a topics that's going to be unique or new knowledge or whatever it was.
有一件事确实很有帮助，因为我们过去常常在第一轮审查中做这件事，我们会探索主题，然后我们如何获得一个独特的主题或新知识或其他任何东西。
And it was, what is one thing that you think that led to your success that nobody else in your peer set has done?
问题是，你认为哪一件事导致了你的成功，而你的同行中没有其他人做过？
What was something that you did on a lark or that you were like, this is a big bet, or this isn't probably going to work, or it's a mistake that it even turned out this way, but it ended up being great.
你只是一时兴起做了什么事情，或者你觉得，这是一个很大的赌注，或者这可能行不通，或者结果是这样是一个错误，但结果却很棒。
What is that one thing that was unusually conceived that you want to share with people?
您想与人们分享的一件非同寻常的事情是什么？
Lenny: I love that question.
莱尼：我喜欢这个问题。
I almost want to answer it, but let's move on.
我几乎想回答这个问题，但我们继续吧。
What are five SaaS products that you use or have used other than notion that you found to be really good other than maybe Slack, which everyone always mentions.
除了大家总是提到的 Slack 之外，您认为非常好的产品还有哪些是您使用过或曾经使用过的 SaaS 产品。
Camille Ricketts: I mean, I'm in love with Notion.
Camille Ricketts：我的意思是，我爱上了 Notion。
The other thing, the other great love of my life right now is Arc, The Browser Company.
另一件事，我现在生命中的另一件挚爱是 Arc，浏览器公司。
Lenny: Oh my God, I love Arc.
莱尼：天哪，我爱阿克。
I just switched to it.
我刚刚切换到它。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
Camille Ricketts: Yeah.
卡米尔·里基茨：是的。
It was something that I tried and within an hour I've made it my default browser and I just think it's beautiful and delightful in one of those intangible ways that a lot of these products are
这是我尝试过的东西，不到一个小时我就将其设为我的默认浏览器，我只是认为它以一种无形的方式美丽而令人愉快，而这些产品中的许多都是如此
Lenny: Same.
莱尼：一样。
Yes.
是的。
Cool.
凉爽的。
Oh, there's more.
哦，还有更多。
Yeah.
是的。
Camille Ricketts: I already talked about Figma.
Camille Ricketts：我已经谈过Figma。
I love Figma.
我爱菲格玛。
I actually use it in my day to day life, which is one of the best parts of it is that folks who are not necessarily designers or highly technical can also get a lot out of it.
我实际上在日常生活中使用它，它最好的部分之一是，那些不一定是设计师或高技术的人也可以从中受益匪浅。
Superhuman.
超人。
Couldn't live my life without Superhuman.
没有超人我就无法生活。
Whenever I have to go back into Gmail to set an autoresponder or whatever, I'm like, ugh, my eyes.
每当我必须返回 Gmail 设置自动回复或其他任何内容时，我都会觉得，呃，我的眼睛。
So couldn't live without that.
所以没有它就活不下去。
Gosh, I'm on sabbatical, so I don't know how many other SaaS products I'm actually using day to day so I'm going to keep it at three.
天哪，我正在休假，所以我不知道我每天实际使用多少其他 SaaS 产品，所以我将其保持在三个。
Lenny: All right.
莱尼：好吧。
Yeah.
是的。
Use less SaaS products during your sabbatical.
在休假期间减少使用 SaaS 产品。
It's a good philosophy.
这是一个很好的哲学。
Camille Ricketts: Yeah.
卡米尔·里基茨：是的。
I don't know if that was your experience, but just is.
我不知道这是否是你的经历，但确实如此。
Oh, the other one I'll shout out, even though this is like a sneaky Notion plug is Kron.
哦，我要大声喊出的另一个是 Kron，尽管这就像一个偷偷摸摸的 Notion 插件。
So if anybody isn't using the Kron calendar, which is now part of Notion as some folks might know, it is in fact the best calendar product on the market.
因此，如果有人不使用 Kron 日历（有些人可能知道它现在是 Notion 的一部分），那么它实际上是市场上最好的日历产品。
Lenny: Sneaky, sneaky.
莱尼：偷偷摸摸，偷偷摸摸。
Last question.
最后一个问题。
What's a favorite read or course or just anything you'd recommend for people to level up their community building skills to build a community, run a community?
您最喜欢的读物或课程是什么，或者您会推荐给人们提高社区建设技能以建立社区、运营社区的任何内容？
What would you point people to?
你会向人们指出什么？
Camille Ricketts: I'm not aware of any courses that are necessarily offered.
Camille Ricketts：我不知道是否有必要提供任何课程。
Ben Lang has done a number of AMAs or interviews, so if you want to just Google Ben Lang and the word community or Notion, you're going to find just a lot of incredible insight.
Ben Lang 做过很多 AMA 或采访，所以如果你只想用 Google 搜索 Ben Lang 和“社区”或“概念”这个词，你就会发现很多令人难以置信的见解。
And his experience has been, I think ...
我认为他的经历是......
In terms of community people operating in tech, Ben is top level, so find whatever he's said.
就从事技术工作的社区人员而言，Ben 是顶级的，所以无论他说什么，都可以找到。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
We will find it.
我们会找到它。
We will link to it.
我们将链接到它。
Camille, I just met you an hour ago, but I feel like I've known you forever.
卡米尔，我一小时前才认识你，但我感觉我已经认识你很久了。
This was amazing.
这太棒了。
Lenny: Thank you so much for making time for this.
莱尼：非常感谢您抽出时间来做这件事。
Two last questions.
最后两个问题。
Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out, learn more?
如果人们想要联系、了解更多信息，可以在哪里找到您？
You're on sabbatical now, and so maybe share what you're thinking about next and what you could be ...
你现在正在休假，所以也许可以分享一下你接下来的想法以及你可以做什么......
I don't know.
我不知道。
And I guess this is the second question.
我想这是第二个问题。
How can listeners be useful to you?
听众如何对你有用？
Camille Ricketts: Thank you for that.
卡米尔·里基茨：谢谢你。
You can find me on Twitter.
你可以在 Twitter 上找到我。
I'm just @CamilleRicketts.
我只是@CamilleRicketts。
Super straightforward.
超级简单。
Still sticking with it.
仍然坚持下去。
And in terms of where I'm at in my life, I'm just interested in meeting as many fascinating new people and learning about things as possible.
就我的生活而言，我只是对结识尽可能多的有趣的新朋友并了解尽可能多的事物感兴趣。
I've started going to these Founders You Should Know events for anybody who's interested about FYSK, and just meeting as many cool people who are building just incredible concepts.
我已经开始为任何对 FYSK 感兴趣的人参加“你应该知道的创始人”活动，并会见尽可能多正在构建令人难以置信的概念的酷人。
It's inspiring every time, and I just want my whole life to look like that.
每次都很鼓舞人心，我只想我的一生都是这样。
So get in touch if you're building something and think I could be helpful.
因此，如果您正在构建一些东西并且认为我可以提供帮助，请与我们联系。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
Camille, thank you so much for being here.
卡米尔，非常感谢你来到这里。
Camille Ricketts: Thank you so much.
卡米尔·里基茨：非常感谢。
This was wonderful.
这太棒了。
Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.
莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。