Monetizing passions, scaling marketplaces, and stories from a creator economy vet | Camille Hearst
Camille Hearst: ...
卡米尔·赫斯特：...
those Steve Jobs' lore was that if you were in an elevator with him, you better be prepared to talk about what you do at the company because he had a habit of getting in the elevator and looking at you and saying, "What do you do?
史蒂夫·乔布斯的传说是，如果你和他一起在电梯里，你最好准备好谈论你在公司做什么，因为他习惯走进电梯看着你说：“你做什么的？
What do you do here?" And there were also rumors that people who had not given him a good answer, that ended up being their last day at Apple.
你在这里做什么？”还有传言说，那些没有给他一个好的答案的人，最终将成为他们在苹果的最后一天。
Camille Hearst: So there was someone who I didn't know personally but worked in my department before I got there who got in an elevator and looked up and Steve was approaching him and so he went to press the button to open the door and accidentally pressed the one to close the door.
卡米尔·赫斯特：有一个我个人不认识的人，但在我到达那里之前在我的部门工作，他走进电梯，抬头一看，史蒂夫正在接近他，所以他去按开门按钮，不小心按了关门按钮。
And it was like doing this press...
这就像做这个新闻......
You can't see me if you're listening on podcast but frantically pressing the button, trying to open the door, but accidentally pressing the closed door button and the elevator going to its destination.
如果你正在听播客，但疯狂地按下按钮，试图打开门，但不小心按下了关门按钮，电梯正前往目的地，你就看不到我。
And apparently he got off and just bolted straight up, ran down the hallway.
显然他下了车，径直跳了起来，跑过走廊。
I disappeared.: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard win experiences building and growing today's most successful products.
我消失了。：欢迎来到莱尼的播客，我采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，从他们构建和发展当今最成功产品的来之不易的经验中学习。
I disappeared.: Today my guest is Camille Hearst.
我失踪了。：今天我的客人是卡米尔·赫斯特。
Camille is head of fan monetization at Spotify.
卡米尔 (Camille) 是 Spotify 粉丝盈利部门的负责人。
Before that, she was head of product for creators of Patreon.
在此之前，她是 Patreon 创作者的产品主管。
She was product marketing manager at YouTube and the second PM on iTunes.
她是 YouTube 的产品营销经理和 iTunes 的第二任产品经理。
She's also a former founder.
她也是前创始人。
She started a company called Kit that she sold to Patreon.
她创办了一家名为 Kit 的公司，并将该公司卖给了 Patreon。
I disappeared.: And this episode is for anyone who's curious about the creator space, either from the creator side or the platform side, or if you'd just like to hear a bunch of fun stories from an awesome product leader.
我消失了。：这一集适合任何对创作者空间感到好奇的人，无论是创作者方面还是平台方面，或者如果您只是想听一些来自出色的产品领导者的有趣故事。
I disappeared.: We chat about the future of creator platforms, how to be successful as a creator, and also as a new creator platform, the downsides of creator life plus frameworks, stories from Steve Jobs, ways to monetize being a creator and so much more.
我消失了。：我们谈论创作者平台的未来，如何作为创作者取得成功，以及作为一个新的创作者平台，创作者生活和框架的缺点，史蒂夫·乔布斯的故事，作为创作者赚钱的方法等等。
I disappeared.: Enjoy this episode with Camille Hearst after a short word from our sponsors.
我消失了。：在我们的赞助商简短发言后，请与卡米尔·赫斯特一起享受这一集。
I disappeared.: This episode is brought to you by Merge.
我消失了。：这一集是由 Merge 为您带来的。
Every product manager knows how slow product development can get when developers have to build and maintain integrations with other platforms.
每个产品经理都知道，当开发人员必须构建和维护与其他平台的集成时，产品开发会变得多么缓慢。
I disappeared.: Merge's unified API can fully remove this blocker from your roadmap.
我消失了。：Merge 的统一 API 可以从您的路线图中完全消除这个障碍。
With one API, your team can add over 180 HR, accounting, ATS, ticketing, CRM, file storage and marketing automation integrations into your product.
通过一个 API，您的团队可以将 180 多个 HR、会计、ATS、票务、CRM、文件存储和营销自动化集成添加到您的产品中。
You can get your first integration into production in a matter of days and save countless weeks building custom integrations, letting you get back to building your core product.
您可以在几天内首次集成到生产中，并节省构建自定义集成的无数周时间，让您可以重新构建核心产品。
I disappeared.: Merge's integration speed up the product development process for customers like Ramp, Drata, and many of their fast growing and established companies, allowing them to test their features at scale without having to worry about a never ending integrations roadmap.
我消失了。：Merge 的集成加快了 Ramp、Drata 等客户及其许多快速发展和成熟公司的产品开发流程，使他们能够大规模测试其功能，而不必担心永无休止的集成路线图。
I disappeared.: Save your engineers countless hours, hit your growth targets, and expedite your sales cycle by making integration offerings your competitive advantage with Merge.
我消失了。：通过 Merge 使集成产品成为您的竞争优势，为您的工程师节省无数的时间，实现您的增长目标，并加快您的销售周期。
I disappeared.: Visit merge.dev/lenny to get started and integrate up to three customers for free.
我消失了。：访问 merge.dev/lenny 开始免费集成最多三个客户。
I disappeared.: This episode is brought to you by Coda.
我消失了。：这一集是由 Coda 为您带来的。
You've heard me talk about how Coda is the doc that brings it all together and how it can help your team run smoother and be more efficient.
您已经听过我谈论 Coda 是如何将所有内容整合在一起的文档，以及它如何帮助您的团队运行得更顺畅、更高效。
I disappeared.: I know this firsthand because Coda does that for me.
我消失了。：我直接知道这一点，因为 Coda 为我做到了这一点。
I use Coda every day to wrinkle my newsletter content calendar, my interview notes for podcasts, and to coordinate my sponsors.
我每天都使用 Coda 来整理我的时事通讯内容日历、播客采访笔记以及协调我的赞助商。
I disappeared.: More recently, I actually wrote a whole post on how Coda's product team operates, and within that post, they shared a dozen templates that they use internally to run their product team, including managing the roadmap, their OKR process, getting internal feedback, and essentially their whole product development process is done within Coda.
我消失了。：最近，我实际上写了一篇关于 Coda 产品团队如何运作的文章，在那篇文章中，他们分享了十几个内部使用的模板来运行他们的产品团队，包括管理路线图、OKR 流程、获取内部反馈，基本上他们的整个产品开发流程都是在 Coda 中完成的。
I disappeared.: If your team's work is spread out across different documents and spreadsheets and a stack of workflow tools, that's why you need Coda.
我消失了。：如果您的团队的工作分散在不同的文档和电子表格以及一堆工作流程工具中，这就是您需要 Coda 的原因。
Coda puts data in one centralized location regardless of format, eliminating roadblocks that can slow your team down.
Coda 将数据放在一个集中位置，无论其格式如何，消除了可能拖慢团队速度的障碍。
Coda allows your team to operate on the same information and collaborate in one place.
Coda 允许您的团队在一个地方处理相同的信息并进行协作。
I disappeared.: Take advantage of the special limited time offer just for startups.
我消失了。：利用专为初创公司提供的特别限时优惠。
Plan up today at coda.io/lenny and get a thousand dollars startup credit on your first statement.
今天就在 coda.io/lenny 上进行计划，并在您的第一份声明中获得一千美元的启动信用。
That's C-O-D-A .io/lenny to sign up and get a startup credit of $1000.
注册并获得 1000 美元的启动信用额是 C-O-D-A .io/lenny。
coda.io/lenny.
coda.io/lenny。
I disappeared.: Camille, thank you so much for being here.
我消失了。：卡米尔，非常感谢你来到这里。
Welcome to the podcast.
欢迎来到播客。
Camille Hearst: Thank you so much for having me, Lenny.
卡米尔·赫斯特：非常感谢你邀请我，莱尼。
Lenny: I first wanted to just give a big thank you to Adam Fishman for introducing us who had just so many nice things to say about you and so I'm really excited to be chatting.
莱尼：首先我想非常感谢亚当·菲什曼（Adam Fishman）向我们介绍了你，他对你说了很多好话，所以我很高兴能和你聊天。
Lenny: I want to start with talking about your current role at Spotify and I believe your role is head of fan monetization.
Lenny：我想首先谈谈您目前在 Spotify 的职位，我相信您的职位是粉丝货币化主管。
What does that actually entail and what are you responsible for within Spotify?
这实际上意味着什么？您在 Spotify 中负责什么？
Camille Hearst: As head of fan monetization, I have a team of folks who are really passionate about figuring out new ways to help artists and fans connect and also figure out ways to make those connections result in new monetization opportunities for the artists.
卡米尔·赫斯特（Camille Hearst）：作为粉丝货币化的负责人，我有一个团队，他们非常热衷于找出新的方法来帮助艺术家和粉丝建立联系，并找出让这些联系为艺术家带来新的货币化机会的方法。
Camille Hearst: So one of the things that we all know and we've seen is how passionate fans are about the artists that they love.
卡米尔·赫斯特：我们都知道并且看到的一件事是粉丝们对他们所爱的艺术家有多么热情。
You've been following any of the latest bits about the Taylor Swift tour, the Beyoncé tour that's been happening this summer, and their effect on local economies.
您一直在关注有关今年夏天泰勒·斯威夫特 (Taylor Swift) 巡演、碧昂丝 (Beyoncé) 巡演的最新消息，以及它们对当地经济的影响。
It's been pretty impressive.
这真是令人印象深刻。
Camille Hearst: But one of the things that we also know is it's not just the big huge superstars who have those rabid and super engaged fan bases.
卡米尔·赫斯特：但我们也知道的一件事是，拥有狂热和高度参与的粉丝群的不仅仅是超级巨星。
People are really passionate just about supporting the artists that they love in general.
人们真的非常热衷于支持他们所喜爱的艺术家。
Camille Hearst: And on Spotify, we want to figure out ways we can help that result in more money that goes directly to the artist.
卡米尔·赫斯特：在 Spotify 上，我们希望找出可以帮助艺术家直接获得更多收入的方法。
Lenny: What are some of those ways just to give people a sense of what might be happening?
莱尼：有哪些方法可以让人们了解可能发生的事情？
Camille Hearst: So one of the ones that most mature is merch which is funny to say because most people probably don't realize that you can purchase merch on Spotify.
Camille Hearst：最成熟的产品之一是商品，这说起来很有趣，因为大多数人可能没有意识到你可以在 Spotify 上购买商品。
That's one that's been around-
那是一直存在的——
Camille Hearst: ...
卡米尔·赫斯特：...
for a bit of time and my team's recently been working on making it more prominent, giving artists more ways to offer that merch in the form of a reward for fans.
一段时间以来，我的团队最近一直致力于使其更加突出，为艺术家提供更多方式以奖励粉丝的形式提供该商品。
So things like an exclusive discount or an exclusive design or early access because you're a top listener on Spotify, really thinking about thank yous and rewards for your Spotify listenership and fandom.
因此，诸如独家折扣、独家设计或抢先体验之类的东西，因为您是 Spotify 的顶级听众，真正考虑对您的 Spotify 听众和粉丝的感谢和奖励。
Camille Hearst: And then other things we've been looking at have been listening parties.
卡米尔·赫斯特：我们一直在关注的其他事情是倾听聚会。
We ran a few of those over the past year.
我们在过去的一年里运行了其中一些。
I think I talked about it actually on a Spotify event a few years ago.
我想我实际上在几年前的 Spotify 活动上谈论过它。
We were running...
我们当时正在跑……
Sorry, it wasn't a few years ago, it was last year.
抱歉，这不是几年前，而是去年。
Camille Hearst: But listening parties is another way and then we've got some new ideas we're exploring.
卡米尔·赫斯特：但是聆听会是另一种方式，然后我们就有了一些正在探索的新想法。
Lenny: I've heard people do listening parties with this podcast actually and I hope that you roll that out to podcast too because that would be very cool.
莱尼：我听说人们实际上用这个播客举办了聆听聚会，我希望你也将其推广到播客中，因为那会非常酷。
Camille Hearst: Yeah.
卡米尔·赫斯特：是的。
We have all kinds of ideas of really interesting ways we can bring groups of people together and get the monetization going.
我们有各种非常有趣的想法，可以将人们聚集在一起并实现货币化。
Mysterious but exciting.: Speaking of Taylor Swift, I was watching a TikTok the other day and they showed a video of someone inside the concert showing the whole concert and then they panned to the parking lot and there was just tens of thousands of people just standing around in the parking lot listening to the second order music out at the stadium.
神秘但令人兴奋：说到泰勒·斯威夫特，前几天我在看一个TikTok，他们播放了一段音乐会内某人的视频，展示了整个音乐会，然后他们摇摄到停车场，只有数万人站在停车场里听体育场外的二阶音乐。
And I wonder how can you monetize that if there's an opportunity?
我想知道如果有机会的话你如何将其货币化？
Camille Hearst: Yeah.
卡米尔·赫斯特：是的。
I think they often have the merch trucks in those parking lots though one way-
我认为他们经常在那些停车场有商品卡车，但有一种方式-
Lenny: So you work with artists and I actually wanted to ask this question.
莱尼：所以你和艺术家一起工作，我实际上想问这个问题。
What's the best part about working with artists, musical artists, and what's the worst part?
与艺术家、音乐艺术家合作最好的部分是什么，最糟糕的部分是什么？
Camille Hearst: I think the best part is working with people who really lean into their creativity and their passion so much so that they do it for a living.
卡米尔·赫斯特：我认为最好的部分是与那些真正投入创造力和热情的人一起工作，以至于他们以此为生。
And I think a lot of us have creative pursuit and passions and things we love to do and if we made millions of dollars and could retire, what would you do full time?
我认为我们很多人都有创造性的追求、热情和我们喜欢做的事情，如果我们赚了数百万美元并且可以退休，你会全职做什么？
Usually, it's one of these pursuits.
通常，这是这些追求之一。
But I think it takes an element of bravery, not to mention talent, but you really have to go out on a limb.
但我认为这需要勇气，更不用说天赋了，但你真的必须冒险。
Camille Hearst: And so that's this equality that exists in this group of people and it's fun to be around and feel that rub off on you and think, "Oh, maybe I could take the dive one day and I don't know, go do my calligraphy or learn my ukulele and then do it full time." But that's the best part.
卡米尔·赫斯特：这就是这群人中存在的平等，很有趣的是，周围的人都会感受到这种平等，并且会想，“哦，也许有一天我可以去潜水，但我不知道，去写书法或学习尤克里里，然后全职做。”但这是最好的部分。
Camille Hearst: And the thing I'm really...
卡米尔·赫斯特：我真的...
I grew up in a musical household.
我在一个音乐家庭长大。
My dad's a drummer although his joke when we were growing up was real musicians have day jobs because he had to actually have a job with benefit to support the family and couldn't just be gigging full time.
我父亲是一名鼓手，尽管在我们成长的过程中他开玩笑说真正的音乐家也有日常工作，因为他实际上必须有一份有福利的工作来养家糊口，而不能只是全职演出。
Camille Hearst: Which actually brings me to the flip side of the question which you asked what is the hardest part.
卡米尔·赫斯特：这实际上让我想到了你问的问题的另一面，即最难的部分是什么。
I do think we saw this a lot at Patreon and I think you see it especially with musicians and artists, this feeling that you want to give your fans everything that you create and you want to do it for free because you're so enamored with this idea that people really love you and want to support you and they're really responding to your creativity and everything that you're making, you don't want to charge them.
我确实认为我们在 Patreon 上看到了很多这样的情况，尤其是在音乐家和艺术家身上，你会看到这种感觉，你想给你的粉丝你创造的一切，你想免费做，因为你非常迷恋这个想法，人们真的爱你，想要支持你，他们真的对你的创造力和你所做的一切做出回应，你不想向他们收费。
But what comes with that is, well, how are you going to make a living.
但随之而来的是，你将如何谋生。
Camille Hearst: To some degree, there has to be a value exchange that happens in order for a creative person to live from their art.
卡米尔·赫斯特：在某种程度上，为了让一个有创造力的人靠他们的艺术生活，必须发生价值交换。
Camille Hearst: And I've found that that's much more pronounced with musicians, this starving artist ethos which makes what I'm trying to do actually quite difficult because a lot of the feedback we get is, "Oh, that's awesome.
卡米尔·赫斯特：我发现这对于音乐家来说更为明显，这种饥饿的艺术家精神使我想做的事情实际上变得相当困难，因为我们得到的很多反馈都是，“哦，这太棒了。
I want to have a listening party and have everything be free and just have everyone show up and don't sell anything." And we're really looking at it as a way to fans want to support the artists they love, they want to open up their wallets.
我想要举办一个聆听派对，让所有东西都是免费的，让每个人都出现，而不是出售任何东西。”我们确实将其视为粉丝想要支持他们喜爱的艺术家的一种方式，他们想要打开钱包。
Camille Hearst: You've see nothing else from a Substack and Patreons that people are actually really happy to be a patron of the arts and they look at it as like a badge of honor.
卡米尔·赫斯特：从 Substack 和 Patreons 中你看不到任何其他东西，人们实际上很高兴成为艺术赞助人，他们将其视为荣誉徽章。
Camille Hearst: But musicians in particular I think tend to shy away from that which makes the kind of thing that I'm working on more difficult.
卡米尔·赫斯特：但我认为音乐家尤其倾向于回避那些让我正在做的事情变得更加困难的事情。
Lenny: This's a great segue to an area I want to spend time on is the creator economy and creators and artists and things like that.
莱尼：这是一个很好的话题，我想花时间研究创作者经济、创作者和艺术家以及类似的事情。
And along these lines, I think I have this issue too.
沿着这些思路，我想我也有这个问题。
I feel bad charging people but there's also...
我觉得向别人收费很不好，但也有...
I don't think my stuff is worth enough to charge for and why would anyone ever pay anything for it and so I imagine you see that too.
我认为我的东西不值得收费，为什么有人会为此支付任何费用，所以我想你也看到了这一点。
It's just like, "No one's going to pay for this.
就像，“没有人会为此付出代价。
It's crazy."
这太疯狂了。”
Camille Hearst: Yeah.
卡米尔·赫斯特：是的。
It's funny because we live in a very capitalist and market dictate the price kind of society, but on an individual level, particularly when the commodity so to speak is art, there's so many emotions and feelings involved in that that it's hard for someone who's the creator to disassociate themselves from it and see what the market will bear.
这很有趣，因为我们生活在一个非常资本主义和市场决定价格的社会，但在个人层面上，特别是当商品可以说是艺术品时，其中涉及到如此多的情感和感受，以至于作为创作者的人很难将自己从中分离出来并看看市场会承受什么。
Camille Hearst: Which is why I actually think it's great that there's platforms who have stepped in and said, "Hey, we see an opportunity.
卡米尔·赫斯特：这就是为什么我实际上认为有平台介入并说：“嘿，我们看到了一个机会，这是很棒的。
Let us insert ourselves in the center, let us aggregate, and let us do the hard work of pricing and payment and tax and finance and actually create value where it would be really hard for an individual person who's a creator to do all of this work and facilitate that connection." It's almost like the perfect marketplace solution.
让我们把自己置于中心，让我们聚合起来，让我们完成定价、支付、税收和金融方面的艰苦工作，并真正创造价值，而对于一个作为创造者的个人来说，完成所有这些工作并促进这种联系是非常困难的。”这几乎就像完美的市场解决方案。
Camille Hearst: But again, it's hard because if the supplier doesn't want to actually make money in some cases or shies away from optimizing or making money.
卡米尔·赫斯特：但同样，这很难，因为如果供应商在某些情况下不想真正赚钱，或者回避优化或赚钱。
Camille Hearst: And then there's the creative process.
卡米尔·赫斯特：然后就是创作过程。
Sometimes, you're in a flow mode and you're producing a lot and then other times, you're in a drought spell and these things ebb and flow which is why I think companies like Patreon and Substack are really cool because what they try to do is smooth out that revenue and make it so an artist can actually have a predictable...
有时，你处于流动模式，你会产出很多东西，然后其他时候，你处于干旱期，这些东西潮起潮落，这就是为什么我认为像 Patreon 和 Substack 这样的公司真的很酷，因为他们试图做的是平滑收入并使其成为艺术家实际上可以有一个可预测的......
They're not even artist, a creator can have a predictable sustainable paycheck so that they aren't bouncing around from job to job and losing the ability to have that burst of creativity because they're worried about their bills.
他们甚至不是艺术家，创作者可以拥有可预测的可持续薪水，这样他们就不会因为担心自己的账单而从一个工作跳到另一个工作并失去创造力爆发的能力。
Lenny: I have that experience myself with Substack which is a subscription newsletter and one of the big downsides people don't think about with this life is once you start charging, people start buying, say, an annual subscription and that means I have to at least go for another year and in reality, I never really want to stop it because the revenue would just stop and that would be really sad.
Lenny：我自己在 Substack 上就有过这样的经历，这是一份订阅时事通讯，人们在生活中没有考虑到的一个大缺点是，一旦你开始收费，人们就开始购买，比如说，每年订阅，这意味着我至少必须再坚持一年，实际上，我从来没有真正想要停止它，因为收入就会停止，那将是非常悲伤的。
So you get on the treadmill where you don't really have an exit path.
所以你踏上跑步机，实际上没有退出路径。
And I'm not sure exactly where this all goes, but it's been great.
我不确定这一切到底去哪儿了，但它非常棒。
But that's something people don't think a lot about is this never ending, keep creating, keep creating life.
但人们没有多想的是，这永无止境，不断创造，不断创造生活。
Camille Hearst: We call it internally the hamster wheel of content creation.
卡米尔·赫斯特：我们在内部将其称为内容创建的仓鼠轮。
You get on because you love it and then how do you get off.
你之所以能继续下去，是因为你喜欢它，然后你又该如何下车。
Camille Hearst: So it's actually an interesting challenge again for platforms to think about where can they add value, are there ways to either make the content creation process that much easier and I don't want to say less of a burden because it's not a burden but sometimes, if you don't have time or you're just at a point in life where you can't do it, are there services or things that can be offered, are there things like financing that makes sense for creators that banks or traditional institutions wouldn't offer because of just the difference in the type of work that's being produced.
卡米尔·赫斯特：所以，对于平台来说，思考在哪里可以增加价值，实际上是一个有趣的挑战，有没有办法让内容创建过程变得更容易，我不想说减轻负担，因为这不是负担，但有时，如果你没有时间，或者你正处于人生的某个阶段，你无法做到这一点，是否有可以提供的服务或东西，是否有银行或传统机构不会提供的对创作者有意义的融资等东西，因为只是所制作的作品类型有所不同。
Camille Hearst: Or another potential solution is are there ways that platforms can create content.
卡米尔·赫斯特：或者另一个潜在的解决方案是平台是否可以创建内容。
Maybe it's automated so that the creator can take a break.
也许它是自动化的，以便创作者可以休息一下。
So maybe they're not AI necessarily, maybe it's more just aggregating data or doing summaries or maybe there's just other ideas that haven't been explored out there.
所以也许它们不一定是人工智能，也许更多只是聚合数据或做总结，或者也许还有其他尚未被探索的想法。
But it's a real problem.
但这是一个真正的问题。
Lenny: So I have this lennybot.com site which is an AI chatbot based on all my content including the podcast episodes and actually, an engineer who was listening to this podcast reached out and offered to help me build it and he did and it's awesome.
Lenny：所以我有这个 lennybot.com 网站，它是一个基于我的所有内容（包括播客剧集）的人工智能聊天机器人，实际上，一位正在听这个播客的工程师伸出援手，主动提出帮助我构建它，他做到了，这非常棒。
And I'm curious if that becomes my retirement plan as the bot ends up just doing this and learns enough.
我很好奇这是否会成为我的退休计划，因为机器人最终只是这样做并学到了足够的东西。
I highly doubt it, but it's fun to experiment with.
我非常怀疑，但尝试一下很有趣。
Camille Hearst: Yeah.
卡米尔·赫斯特：是的。
Use your own content as your large language model, right?
使用您自己的内容作为您的大型语言模型，对吧？
Lenny: Exactly.
莱尼：没错。
That's exactly what it is.
正是如此。
And I'm curious where this goes.
我很好奇这会发生什么。
Lenny: I want to follow the thread of the creator economy.
莱尼：我想追随创作者经济的脉络。
It feels like there's this huge wave of the creator economies, the future of work, and all these platforms launched to allow creator to make money.
感觉就像创作者经济、工作的未来以及所有这些平台的推出都是为了让创作者赚钱的巨大浪潮。
But it feels like over the past couple of years, it feels like it faded away.
但感觉近几年来，这种感觉已经消失了。
And these very small number of platforms essentially one YouTube, Spotify, Instagram, TikTok, Patreon, maybe Substack, and there was also the sense that the future of work is freelance, everyone's going to be working for themselves, creating stuff, and it feels like people are still working regular jobs.
这些极少数的平台基本上是 YouTube、Spotify、Instagram、TikTok、Patreon，也许还有 Substack，而且还有一种感觉，未来的工作是自由职业，每个人都将为自己工作，创造东西，感觉人们仍在从事常规工作。
A lot of these startups haven't done great.
很多这样的初创公司并没有取得很好的成绩。
Lenny: So I guess I'm just curious what you think happens maybe in the next five or 10 years from a perspective of platforms emerging and also just from creators, what...
莱尼：所以我想我只是好奇你认为从新兴平台以及创作者的角度来看，未来五年或十年内可能会发生什么……
Do you think things stay the same?
你认为事情会保持不变吗？
Do you think there's another wave?
你认为还有另一波浪潮吗？
Where do you think things go?
你认为事情会走向何方？
Camille Hearst: I think it was probably predictable to some degree that platforms would win because just of the nature of aggregation.
卡米尔·赫斯特：我认为在某种程度上，平台会获胜是可以预见的，因为聚合的本质。
Once you have either all of the supply or you've aggregated the demand, it's really a strong network effect.
一旦你拥有了所有的供应或者聚合了需求，这确实是一个强大的网络效应。
Why investors love to invest in these types of businesses, it's hard to break out.
为什么投资者热衷于投资这类企业，这很难解释。
Camille Hearst: I wouldn't underestimate the strategic ability either of some the big platforms.
卡米尔·赫斯特：我不会低估一些大平台的战略能力。
They were definitely thinking ahead and building features and thinking about whether or not they saw it as a monetization opportunity.
他们肯定会提前思考并构建功能，并考虑是否将其视为一个盈利机会。
It certainly is a great strategic play to make sure that creators felt like they were on the platform that made the most sense for them and they weren't going to churn or leave or try too many other places out.
这无疑是一个伟大的战略策略，可以确保创作者感觉他们所在的平台对他们来说最有意义，并且他们不会流失或离开或尝试太多其他地方。
Camille Hearst: So I think the rush and the funding was to figure out is there room for any other new platforms, are there specific vertical that maybe there's an opportunity to create vertical specific features and tooling.
卡米尔·赫斯特：所以我认为急于和资金是为了弄清楚是否有任何其他新平台的空间，是否有特定的垂直领域，也许有机会创建垂直特定的功能和工具。
Camille Hearst: And actually, I think we saw a huge massive creation there in Twitch, right?
卡米尔·赫斯特：实际上，我认为我们在 Twitch 上看到了巨大的创作，对吗？
Twitch did not exist and they're just a juggernaut.
Twitch 并不存在，他们只是一个巨头。
Camille Hearst: I think TikTok is another one that came out of this era.
卡米尔·赫斯特：我认为 TikTok 是这个时代诞生的又一个。
Maybe they weren't positioned as creator economy type startups but effectively...
也许他们并没有被定位为创造者经济类型的初创公司，但实际上......
Camille Hearst: Did you see what happened in Union Square here with Kai, the gaming streamer?
卡米尔·赫斯特：你看到游戏主播 Kai 在联合广场发生的事情了吗？
Camille Hearst: So I'm in New York and last week, there was a mob and a riot because a Twitch streamer announced that he was going to be giving away PlayStations and computer gear in Union Square and something like a million teenage boys showed up.
卡米尔·赫斯特：我在纽约，上周发生了暴徒和骚乱，因为 Twitch 的一名主播宣布他将在联合广场赠送 PlayStation 和电脑设备，大约有一百万十几岁的男孩出现了。
I'm not making this up.
这不是我编造的。
And they had to shut down the center of New York City to clear what turned into protest, riot, mob-
他们不得不关闭纽约市中心，以清除抗议、骚乱、暴徒——
Camille Hearst: ...
卡米尔·赫斯特：...
of teenagers who came for this one creator that probably no one listening to me right now has even heard of.
一群为这个创造者而来的青少年，现在可能没有人听过我的说法。
Camille Hearst: So I do think a lot of the predictions have come to bear.
卡米尔·赫斯特：所以我确实认为很多预测已经成为现实。
There are tons of people making money and making a living from creating content on the internet.
有很多人通过在互联网上创建内容来赚钱和谋生。
Camille Hearst: There have been studies too where they ask young people what they want to do and what they want to be when they grow up, we quote these at, excuse me, Patreon and over 60% want to create content for a living.
卡米尔·赫斯特：也有一些研究询问年轻人他们想做什么以及长大后想做什么，我们在 Patreon 上引用了这些内容，超过 60% 的人希望以创作内容为生。
Camille Hearst: So those trends I don't think are going anywhere.
卡米尔·赫斯特：所以我认为这些趋势不会有任何发展。
Maybe it'll be supplemental income, maybe it'll be something you do for a period of your life.
也许这将是额外的收入，也许这将是你一生中一段时间所做的事情。
But I do think that this area continues to be untapped.
但我确实认为这个领域仍然有待开发。
I just don't see a world where...
我只是看不到一个世界...
Camille Hearst: I think of Michelle Phan, right?
卡米尔·赫斯特：我想到了米歇尔·潘，对吧？
She's basically a mini Disney and when you think of it like that, she's created IP.
她基本上就是一个迷你迪士尼，当你这样想时，她创造了知识产权。
What can you do with IP?
你能用IP做什么？
Comic books, movies, TV shows, plushies, merch.
漫画书、电影、电视节目、毛绒玩具、商品。
How many millions of Michelle fans are we going to have seen?
我们将会看到多少百万米歇尔粉丝？
Camille Hearst: Look at what's happening in China.
卡米尔·赫斯特：看看中国正在发生的事情。
There's tons of creators like this.
像这样的创作者还有很多。
Camille Hearst: So whether or not the VCs have won or the startups have succeeded, there's no way that you can lower the cost of content creation and increase the scale of distribution and not see this emerge, this creator economy I think emerge.
卡米尔·赫斯特：因此，无论风险投资公司是否获胜，或者初创公司是否成功，你都无法在降低内容创作成本并增加发行规模的情况下看到这种情况的出现，我认为这种创造者经济的出现。
But I think that maybe there's still opportunity for more companies to blossom and to grow and certainly for more individuals maybe do this, figure it out on their own, and do it without too many big platforms getting paid off of their creative pursuit.
但我认为，也许更多的公司仍然有机会蓬勃发展和成长，当然，对于更多的个人来说，他们可能会这样做，自己解决这个问题，并且在没有太多大平台从他们的创造性追求中获得回报的情况下做到这一点。
Lenny: Have you seen the NPC trend on TikTok/maybe Instagram Reels where people pretend to be NPCs, non-playable characters, from a video game?
Lenny：你见过 TikTok/也许是 Instagram Reels 上的 NPC 趋势吗？人们假装是电子游戏中的 NPC，即不可玩的角色？
Lenny: Okay.
莱尼：好的。
It's crazy.
太疯狂了。
People just pretend to be a computer character and people pay them little gifts to do a thing.
人们只是假装成一个电脑角色，然后付给他们小礼物来做某事。
Camille Hearst: Oh.
卡米尔·赫斯特：哦。
Is this the...
难道这是……
Yes.
是的。
Have seen it.
已经看过了。
ice cream, ice cream.
冰淇淋，冰淇淋。
Lenny: You're making tens of thousands of dollars a day just...
莱尼：你一天赚几万美元……
So that's one way to make a living.
所以这是谋生的一种方式。
Lenny: On the thread of becoming a creator, you've seen a lot of creators try to do this on Patreon, back at Apple even with iTunes, I want to chat about that, at Spotify now, and even your startup.
Lenny：关于成为创作者，你已经看到很多创作者在 Patreon 上尝试这样做，回到苹果甚至用 iTunes，我想谈谈这个，现在在 Spotify，甚至你的初创公司。
I'm curious what you've seen is important to success in the creator life, especially things that are maybe not obvious to people.
我很好奇你所看到的对于创作者生活的成功很重要，尤其是那些对人们来说可能并不明显的事情。
What do people need to get right if they want to pursue that path?
如果人们想要走这条路，他们需要做什么？
Camille Hearst: One of the things that I've seen that I don't know if people realize is consistency and predictability of content creation which is where this idea that we were talking about earlier of a hamster wheel kind of comes on.
卡米尔·赫斯特：我所看到的一件事我不知道人们是否意识到是内容创建的一致性和可预测性，这就是我们之前讨论的仓鼠轮子的想法的来源。
Camille Hearst: But there is something to churning out consistent quality work and putting it out there for your audience to consume and respond and react to that goes a long way.
卡米尔·赫斯特：但是，制作出始终如一的高质量作品并将其放在那里供观众消费、回应和反应是有很大帮助的。
It's almost like the 10,000 hours.
差不多就是一万小时了。
You have to do 10,000 hours of something in order to truly master it.
你必须花一万个小时去做一件事才能真正掌握它。
But I've seen that time and again.
但我已经一次又一次地看到这种情况。
Camille Hearst: I started at YouTube in, let's see, how old am I?
卡米尔·赫斯特：我是在 YouTube 上工作的，让我们看看，我多大了？
It must have been 2010.
那应该是2010年的事了。
And that was when I really think this whole thing was just first getting going.
就在那时我真的认为整件事才刚刚开始。
And we used to put together these playbooks of what made a creator successful because a lot of the effort there was trying to support this burgeoning economy.
我们曾经将这些创造者成功的剧本放在一起，因为那里的很多努力都是为了支持这个蓬勃发展的经济。
And I remember even back then in 2010 and to this day, that continues to be one of the top pieces of advice.
我记得即使在 2010 年，直到今天，这仍然是最重要的建议之一。
Camille Hearst: Another one is collaboration.
卡米尔·赫斯特：另一个是合作。
So working with other great creators, sharing audience, exposing one another to those audiences, and then this was something we tried to employ at my startup, Kit.
因此，与其他伟大的创作者合作，分享受众，向这些受众展示彼此，这就是我们在我的初创公司 Kit 中尝试采用的东西。
We would actually host events for creators to get together to facilitate meeting and cross pollination in the hopes that it would just benefit their careers.
实际上，我们会为创作者举办活动，让他们聚在一起，以促进见面和异花授粉，希望这对他们的职业生涯有利。
If they were doing YouTube videos with someone they met at the party, then it would be great for all parties all around.
如果他们与聚会上遇到的人一起制作 YouTube 视频，那么这对周围的所有聚会来说都是件好事。
So those are two things.
所以这是两件事。
Camille Hearst: And then I do think in a world with all of this content, there continues to be a need and a space for the curator.
卡米尔·赫斯特：我确实认为，在一个拥有所有这些内容的世界中，策展人仍然存在需求和空间。
And curators as creator's kind of an interesting concept.
策展人作为创作者是一个有趣的概念。
But a curator is almost like what the role at book publishing company plays or a record label plays or a radio station plays, right?
但策展人几乎就像图书出版公司、唱片公司或广播电台所扮演的角色一样，对吗？
Camille Hearst: There is a degree of having a brand, having something you stand for, having a vibe or an ethos and that person being almost, not a gatekeeper in a bad way, but like, "I, Camille, can't consume anywhere near all this content.
卡米尔·赫斯特：在某种程度上，拥有一个品牌、拥有自己所代表的东西、拥有一种氛围或一种精神，而这个人几乎不是一个糟糕的看门人，而是像，“我，卡米尔，无法消费所有这些内容。
You, I trust your vibe.
你，我相信你的气质。
Tell me what I should be listening to." And so that would be the third thing I would say is figure out who are those curators who you really can associate your content with who are on the same page as you, have an audience who you think would like your stuff and just try and get associated with them.
告诉我我应该听什么。”因此，我要说的第三件事是找出那些你真正可以将你的内容与你在同一页面上的内容联系起来的策展人，拥有你认为会喜欢你的东西的观众，然后尝试与他们建立联系。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
The last piece is so...
最后一段实在是太...
I totally see that all the time.
我一直都看到这一点。
If there's someone I super respect and they recommend something, I'm obviously going to value that recommendation highly.
如果有一个我非常尊敬的人并且他们推荐了一些东西，我显然会高度重视该推荐。
That's like we're influencing emerged from organically, right?
这就像我们正在有机地产生影响，对吧？
People just, "Here's something you should check out," and then, "Oh, let's pay you to share things so that people try our product."
人们只是说，“这是你应该检查一下的东西”，然后，“哦，我们付钱给你分享东西，以便人们尝试我们的产品。”
Camille Hearst: That was the exact concept behind my startup, Kit.
卡米尔·赫斯特：这就是我的初创公司 Kit 背后的确切概念。
It was all about curating, finding people who are great recommenders for gear, having them curate that gear, and then you could follow the curators you love who wants to go look on Amazon and see reviews from people you've never heard of.
这一切都与策划有关，找到对装备有出色推荐的人，让他们策划这些装备，然后你可以跟随你喜欢的策展人，他们想要在亚马逊上查看并查看你从未听说过的人的评论。
Oftentimes, if it's your brother-in-law who's a great cyclist and they say, "Buy this," you just buy it.
通常，如果你的姐夫是一位出色的自行车手，他们说“买这个”，你就买它。
You don't even care what the reviews say because you trust that person.
你甚至不在乎评论怎么说，因为你信任那个人。
Lenny: What happened with the startup and what did you learn from that experience?
莱尼：这家初创公司发生了什么？你从这次经历中学到了什么？
Camille Hearst: I started working on the startup in 2015.
卡米尔·赫斯特：我从 2015 年开始在这家初创公司工作。
We managed to raise some money, raised over $2 million, which is a huge accomplishment, especially if you know anything about venture capital.
我们设法筹集了一些资金，筹集了超过 200 万美元，这是一项巨大的成就，特别是如果您对风险投资有所了解的话。
They have a horrible track record when it comes to funding people of color, women, people who are non-cisgender white male, just the track record.
在资助有色人种、女性、非顺性别白人男性方面，他们有着糟糕的记录，只是记录而已。
Camille Hearst: And we had an amazing experience building this company over several years, grew a bunch of the key metrics up into the right and got to a point where we were trying to figure out what the next move was and should we get a bridge round.
卡米尔·赫斯特（Camille Hearst）：我们在建立这家公司的几年里获得了令人惊叹的经验，将一系列关键指标提高到了正确的程度，并达到了我们试图弄清楚下一步行动是什么以及我们是否应该获得过渡的地步。
We were trying to raise Series A.
我们正在尝试筹集 A 轮融资。
We were, I think, early on the creator economy trend.
我认为，我们处于创作者经济趋势的早期。
Probably about a year and a half later, it would've been, I think, I hope a snap to raise money.
大概一年半之后，我想，我希望能迅速筹集到资金。
But anyway, we were battling a bunch of different choices, different options.
但无论如何，我们面临着许多不同的选择、不同的选择。
Camille Hearst: And I actually did this startup accelerator called StartX that's run out of Stanford which is my alma mater.
卡米尔·赫斯特：我实际上做了一个名为 StartX 的创业加速器，它是在我的母校斯坦福大学运行的。
And we learned a lot about how to sell a company and what M&A looks like.
我们学到了很多关于如何出售公司以及并购是什么样子的知识。
So we started exploring that path.
所以我们开始探索这条道路。
Camille Hearst: And in the end, it made the most sense for us to have an exit and join forces with Patreon.
Camille Hearst：最后，我们退出并与 Patreon 联手是最有意义的。
And so that's what we ended up doing.
这就是我们最终所做的。
Sold the company in 2018, joined Patreon, worked there a couple of years, and that's where I met Adam.
2018 年卖掉了公司，加入 Patreon，在那里工作了几年，就是在那里我遇到了 Adam。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
And I wanted to ask actually about that experience of selling a company.
我实际上想问一下出售公司的经历。
There's a lot of people listening right now who are thinking about selling their company or maybe you hope to sell their company someday, and I think there's a reality of it and then there's the idea of how it might go.
现在有很多人在听，他们正在考虑出售他们的公司，或者也许你希望有一天出售他们的公司，我认为这是现实，然后是它可能如何发展的想法。
I'm curious what you've taken away from that experience.
我很好奇你从这次经历中得到了什么。
And I guess specifically is there any advice you could share with folks that are thinking about selling their company someday?
我想您有什么建议可以与那些正在考虑有一天出售公司的人分享吗？
What you think maybe could have done earlier or also just share a glimpse of the reality of acquisitions?
您认为可以早点做些什么，或者只是分享一下收购的现实？
Camille Hearst: I think it's different for every company for sure.
卡米尔·赫斯特：我认为每个公司的情况肯定有所不同。
Some companies get souped in and get bought.
一些公司加入并被收购。
And other companies actively sell themselves.
其他公司也积极推销自己。
Camille Hearst: We are definitely in the latter camp which means that we manage a process.
卡米尔·赫斯特：我们绝对属于后一个阵营，这意味着我们管理一个流程。
It's similar to how you manage a process for fundraising.
这与管理筹款流程的方式类似。
Not every company just meets the VC and raises money on the first try.
并不是每家公司都会在第一次尝试时就遇到风险投资并筹集资金。
They go through a process and meet tons of VCs and put them through the funnel and end up on the other side hopefully with a successful round.
他们经历了一个过程，会见了大量的风险投资家，让他们通过漏斗，最终有望在一轮成功的融资中到达另一边。
So I think that's one takeaway is treat it like a process and manage it like a process if it is something you're interested in.
因此，我认为一个要点就是，如果您感兴趣的话，请将其视为一个流程并像管理一个流程一样对其进行管理。
It doesn't really just...
这其实不只是...
For most companies, I would say it doesn't just happen.
对于大多数公司来说，我想说这不会自然而然地发生。
Camille Hearst: And then the second piece of advice I would give I think we should have been talking to potential acquirers from the beginning and sharing our vision and what we were trying to accomplish because we started those quite late in our journey as a company and it just meant it took...
卡米尔·赫斯特：然后我要给出的第二条建议是，我认为我们应该从一开始就与潜在的收购者交谈，分享我们的愿景和我们试图实现的目标，因为我们在公司发展历程中起步很晚，这意味着……
When I met a potential CPO, who would acquire the company, who would end up being my boss or CEO, it was their first time meeting me whereas if it had been their fifth time, we would've had a relationship established and they would've known more about the vision and what we're trying to do and hopefully, would've had some more time to think about it.
当我遇到一位潜在的 CPO（他将收购公司，他最终将成为我的老板或首席执行官）时，这是他们第一次见到我，而如果这是他们第五次，我们就会建立关系，他们会更多地了解我们的愿景和我们正在尝试做的事情，并且希望会有更多时间来考虑。
Camille Hearst: So those would be my two pieces of advice.
卡米尔·赫斯特：这是我的两条建议。
Start preparing to sell your company from the moment you found it which is a weird thing because obviously, if you're starting a company, for most founders, they want it to be the next big thing, they're not starting it in order to sell it, but it's a good thing to have on your radar because you never know what the future holds.
从你发现公司的那一刻起就开始准备出售它，这是一件奇怪的事情，因为显然，如果你要创办一家公司，对于大多数创始人来说，他们希望它成为下一个大事件，他们不是为了出售它而开始它，但这是一件好事，因为你永远不知道未来会发生什么。
And then two is to treat it like a process.
第二个是将其视为一个过程。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
On that piece of knowing people who may acquire you, I found that to be a thousand percent true.
在了解那些可能会收购你的人的那篇文章中，我发现这是千分百正确的。
We sold our company the Airbnb and that's how it got to Airbnb and what I realized is you just need people who may buy you in the future to have you in their head when they have a problem so that they could be like, "Oh, Camille and her team could solve this problem for us.
我们把我们的公司卖给了 Airbnb，这就是它如何进入 Airbnb，我意识到你只需要那些将来可能会购买你的人在遇到问题时在他们的脑海中记住你，这样他们就可以说，“哦，卡米尔和她的团队可以为我们解决这个问题。
Let's go chat with her and-
我们去和她聊天然后-
...
...
see if they're interested in acquisition.": And on the process piece too, 1000% resonates.
看看他们是否对收购感兴趣。”：在流程方面，也产生了 1000% 的共鸣。
We basically...
我们基本上...
When we started chatting with a company, we're just like, "Okay, who else could potentially acquire us?
当我们开始与一家公司聊天时，我们会想，“好吧，还有谁有可能收购我们？
Let's make a big list and who we can talk to at that company as soon as possible and then just explore." But it's more challenging there because it's you reaching out to them being like, "Hey, you want to chat about buying our company," versus them reaching out to you.
让我们尽快列出一个大名单，以及我们可以与该公司的哪些人交谈，然后进行探索。”但这更具挑战性，因为你向他们伸出援手，就像“嘿，你想谈谈购买我们公司的事情”，而不是他们向你伸出援手。
So to your point, always goes better if they reach out to you, but you can't always control that.
所以就你的观点而言，如果他们主动联系你，事情总是会更好，但你不能总是控制这一点。
Camille Hearst: Right.
卡米尔·赫斯特：对。
Or if the meeting is not under the context of buying it all, it's like, "We're working on something cool.
或者，如果会议不是在购买全部产品的背景下进行的，那就像是，“我们正在做一些很酷的事情。
We have a great vision.
我们有一个伟大的愿景。
It aligns with what you're doing.
它与您正在做的事情一致。
Maybe there's a partnership here," versus just tell you what we're doing and then when I contact you in 12 months about buying me, you've heard of me before.
也许这里有合作伙伴关系，”而不是只是告诉你我们在做什么，然后当我在 12 个月内联系你购买我时，你以前就听说过我。
Lenny: I find even when you're starting to chat about acquisitions, you never want to say directly, "Hey, you want to buy us?" It's like, "Hey, you want to have a strategic partnership of some kind?
莱尼：我发现，即使你开始谈论收购，你也不想直接说：“嘿，你想收购我们吗？”就像，“嘿，你想建立某种战略伙伴关系吗？
You want to explore partnership?" So funny.
你想探索合作关系吗？”太有趣了。
Lenny: Yeah, yeah.
莱尼：是啊，是啊。
You can't just be too direct sometimes.
有时候你不能太直接。
Lenny: So when you got to Patreon, I don't know if it was immediate or eventually you ended up leading the creator side of the marketplace, and I find that looking at your background, you basically stayed on the supply side of marketplaces through your career mostly.
Lenny：所以，当你来到 Patreon 时，我不知道这是立即发生的，还是最终你最终领导了市场的创作者一方，我发现，从你的背景来看，你在职业生涯中基本上都停留在市场的供应方。
Lenny: And I actually did the same thing.
莱尼：我实际上也做了同样的事情。
All I worked on at Airbnb especially, or mostly, was the host side.
我在 Airbnb 所做的工作主要是房东方面。
Lenny: And I think it takes a specific mindset in person to be excited about that side of the marketplace versus the consumer side which is where everyone always generally wants to go, to the customer side.
莱尼：我认为，个人需要有一种特定的心态，才能对市场的那一面与消费者的一面感到兴奋，而消费者的一面是每个人通常都想去的地方，即客户方面。
So I'm curious what it is that's drawn you to that side of the business across all the places you work and then just what you found to be important to be successful in that role and on that side?
所以我很好奇是什么吸引你到你工作的所有地方的业务的这一方面，然后你发现什么对于在该职位和这一方面取得成功很重要？
Camille Hearst: What drew me to that side of the business probably was maybe accidental at the beginning.
卡米尔·赫斯特（Camille Hearst）：一开始吸引我从事这一业务的可能是偶然的。
Just again, coming from this musical family and background, I always had a natural interest in helping artists make a living.
再说一次，来自这个音乐家庭和背景，我总是对帮助艺术家谋生有着天然的兴趣。
So I think that interest was there.
所以我认为兴趣是存在的。
Camille Hearst: At Apple, I did...
卡米尔·赫斯特：在苹果，我做了……
There were only two PMs there.
那里只有两名 PM。
We did everything.
我们做了一切。
At YouTube, I accidentally ended up in creator.: But where I started understanding deeply the dynamics of the marketplace was actually my experience and the one job I've had that not been in the creator or art or these big consumer platforms or creator economy which was at a startup called Hailo based out of London and at the time was a huge competitor to Uber and Lyft in the ride sharing and ride hailing space and I worked on the supply side making sure that there were enough cars to fuel the demand.
在YouTube，我意外地最终进入了创作者。：但我开始深入了解市场动态的地方实际上是我的经历，以及我所从事的一份工作，而不是在创作者或艺术或这些大型消费平台或创作者经济中，该工作位于伦敦一家名为Hailo的初创公司，当时是Uber和Lyft在乘车共享和打车领域的巨大竞争对手，我在供应方面工作，确保有足够的汽车来满足需求。
At YouTube, I accidentally ended up in creator.: And in a marketplace like that where it's real time people trying to get a cab to go from uptown to downtown, you see the inexperience firsthand the impact to your business if you don't have suppliers, if your suppliers aren't happy, if they go on strike, if there's regulations that mean you can't use your service.
在YouTube，我意外地进入了创造者。：在这样的市场中，人们实时试图叫出租车从住宅区到市中心，如果你没有供应商，如果你的供应商不满意，如果他们罢工，如果有规定意味着你不能使用你的服务，你会亲眼目睹经验不足对你的业务造成的影响。
And there I think I was...
在那里我想我...
At YouTube, I accidentally ended up in creator.: So one of the projects that I worked on that I launched was the U.S. Uber competitor because Hailo in Europe was all about getting taxi cabs and did not play in the livery is what it's called in New York or the private rides.
在YouTube，我不小心最终成为了创作者。：所以我参与的项目之一是我推出的美国Uber竞争对手，因为欧洲的Hailo主要是打出租车，而不是在纽约所谓的制服或私人游乐设施中发挥作用。
Basically, it's like your uncle or your aunt or your cousin who can switch on Lyft and go pick up whoever.
基本上，就像你的叔叔、阿姨或表弟一样，他们可以打开 Lyft 去接任何人。
That just was not a thing in Europe.
这在欧洲并不是什么事情。
At YouTube, I accidentally ended up in creator.: And so we had to figure out how to launch that in the U.S., how to get drivers on how to create this supply and it was like it doesn't matter how nice the user experience is, how great the marketing is, how much demand you can generate if when someone opens that app, there are no cars available.
在YouTube，我不小心最终进入了创作者。：所以我们必须弄清楚如何在美国推出这个应用程序，如何让司机了解如何创建这种供应，就像用户体验有多好，营销有多好，如果当有人打开该应用程序时没有可用的汽车时可以产生多少需求一样。
At YouTube, I accidentally ended up in creator.: So a lot of people talk about marketplaces as chicken and egg.
在YouTube，我不小心进入了创作者：所以很多人都将市场视为先有鸡还是先有蛋。
I actually just think they're two-sided and you start with the supply and at the end of the day, you can optimize for the demand side or choose who you're going to prioritize in terms of if there's a conflict, we're going to pick this side or the other.
我实际上只是认为它们是双面的，你从供应开始，最后，你可以针对需求方进行优化，或者选择你要优先考虑的人，如果发生冲突，我们将选择这一方或另一方。
At YouTube, I accidentally ended up in creator.: And yes, you won't be successful with one side or the other but I just experienced and lived firsthand the pain of having built this great operations back in that fed into this gray UI and then you open that app and you can't get a ride because there aren't enough cars available.
在YouTube，我不小心最终成为了创造者。：是的，你不会在任何一方取得成功，但我只是经历并亲身经历了在这个灰色的用户界面中构建这个伟大的操作的痛苦，然后你打开那个应用程序，你无法乘车，因为没有足够的可用汽车。
At YouTube, I accidentally ended up in creator.: So I think that solidified my feeling that with marketplaces, you can't lose sight of the solving real pain points and needs for the supply side in order to make sure the entire business can operate.
在 YouTube，我意外地进入了创作者行列。：所以我认为这巩固了我的感觉，即在市场中，你不能忽视解决供应方的真正痛点和需求，以确保整个业务能够运营。
Lenny: I've done a bunch of research into marketplaces and I found basically the same thing, that supply is almost always where you need to focus almost all your time especially at the beginning.
莱尼：我对市场做了很多研究，我发现基本上同样的事情，供应几乎总是你需要几乎所有时间关注的地方，尤其是在开始的时候。
Lenny: The way I think about it is that's if you have a store that's stuff on your shelves and you're not going to have a business if you don't have anything on the shelves.
莱尼：我的想法是，如果你有一家商店，货架上有东西，而如果货架上没有任何东西，你就不会做生意。
Lenny: There's a few rare cases, I forget exactly which they were, where demand was actually the bigger challenge and supply is really easy.
莱尼：有一些罕见的情况，我具体忘记了它们是什么，需求实际上是更大的挑战，而供应确实很容易。
Lenny: You know what?
莱尼：你知道吗？
It was Rover.
那是罗孚。
Rover had no problem it turns out with supply because who wouldn't want to make 50 bucks watching a dog for a few hours.
事实证明，Rover 的供应没有问题，因为谁不想靠看狗几个小时赚 50 美元。
It was a really easy sell and a lot of people could do it and wanted to do it so they actually found supply was not an issue.
这是一次非常容易的销售，很多人都可以做到并且想要这样做，所以他们实际上发现供应不是问题。
Lenny: But in most cases exactly how you said most 10 times supply is what people are looking for.
Lenny：但在大多数情况下，正如你所说，最多 10 倍的供应量正是人们所寻求的。
Totally.: I find that the counter example I hear a lot is eBay, how they were so good at aggregating demand, they were basically able to force suppliers to the terms that they like.
完全。：我发现我经常听到的反例是 eBay，他们非常擅长聚合需求，他们基本上能够迫使供应商遵守他们喜欢的条款。
But I can't imagine...
但我无法想象...
It'd be interesting to talk to some folks who were at eBay in their early days that the whole thing didn't start up without them going out and figuring out who are the key suppliers we need to get on this thing so that we can get aggregating demand.
与早期在 eBay 工作的一些人交谈是很有趣的，如果他们不出去找出谁是我们需要获得的关键供应商，以便我们能够聚合需求，那么整个事情就不会开始。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
You got to have some good stuff on eBay.
你必须在 eBay 上找到一些好东西。
I wonder if Beanie Babies or whatever they started with.
我想知道是豆豆宝宝还是他们开始的任何东西。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Vanta, helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate your growth.
Lenny：本集由 Vanta 为您带来，可帮助您简化安全合规性以加速您的成长。
Thousands of fast-growing companies like Gusto, Comm, Quora, and Modern Treasury trust Vanta to help build, scale, manage, and demonstrate their security and compliance programs and get ready for audits in weeks, not months.
Gusto、Comm、Quora 和 Modern Treasury 等数千家快速发展的公司信任 Vanta 帮助构建、扩展、管理和演示其安全与合规计划，并在数周（而不是数月）内为审核做好准备。
Lenny: By offering the most in-demand security and privacy frameworks such as SOC 2, ISO 27001, GDPR, HIPAA, and many more, Vanta helps companies obtain the reports they need to accelerate growth, build efficient compliance processes, mitigate risks to their businesses, and build trust with external stakeholders.
Lenny：通过提供最受欢迎的安全和隐私框架（例如 SOC 2、ISO 27001、GDPR、HIPAA 等），Vanta 帮助公司获取加速增长、构建高效合规流程、降低业务风险以及与外部利益相关者建立信任所需的报告。
Lenny: Over 5,000 fast-growing companies use Vanta to automate up to 90% of the work involved with SOC 2 and these other frameworks.
Lenny：超过 5,000 家快速发展的公司使用 Vanta 自动化 SOC 2 和其他框架所涉及的高达 90% 的工作。
Lenny: For a limited time, Lenny's Podcast listeners get $1000 off Vanta.
Lenny：在有限的时间内，Lenny 的 Podcast 听众可以从 Vanta 获得 1000 美元的折扣。
Go to vanta.com/lenny, that's V-A-N-T-A .com/lenny, to learn more and to claim your discounts.
请访问vanta.com/lenny，即V-A-N-T-A .com/lenny，了解更多信息并申请折扣。
Get started today.
今天就开始吧。
Lenny: You mentioned Apple and I want to spend a little time there.
莱尼：你提到了苹果公司，我想在那里呆一会儿。
So you said you were the second PM on iTunes back in the day and I'm curious what you learned from the experience you had working at Apple.
你说你是当年 iTunes 的第二任产品经理，我很好奇你从在 Apple 的工作经历中学到了什么。
I think I read somewhere you worked maybe closely with Steve Jobs and Jony Ive, but I don't know if that's true, but I'm curious just...
我想我读过你可能与史蒂夫·乔布斯和乔尼·艾维密切合作的地方，但我不知道这是否属实，但我很好奇......
No?
没有？
Okay, but you do have a Steve Jobs story?
好的，但是你有史蒂夫·乔布斯的故事吗？
Camille Hearst: Yes.
卡米尔·赫斯特：是的。
So I was very early on in the iTunes days I started interning there when I came out of grad school and my internship was actually in label relation and then I started a full-time job doing product marketing.
所以我很早就在 iTunes 工作了，当我从研究生院毕业时，我就开始在那里实习，我的实习实际上是与唱片公司相关的，然后我开始了一份全职的产品营销工作。
Camille Hearst: And at Apple at the time, I think even to this day, they didn't have a product manager title, they had product marketing managers.
卡米尔·赫斯特：当时在苹果，我想即使到今天，他们也没有产品经理的头衔，他们有产品营销经理。
And so one of my colleagues who remains good friends to this day, Steve was the first also named Steve, not Steve Jobs was the first PMM working on iTunes and he primarily was doing all the client stuff.
因此，我的一位同事至今仍是好朋友，史蒂夫是第一个也被称为史蒂夫的同事，而不是史蒂夫·乔布斯，他是第一个在 iTunes 上工作的 PMM，他主要负责所有客户端工作。
He launched the store and everything.
他创办了这家商店和一切。
But I think I was the second person in the iTunes group with that title.
但我想我是 iTunes 小组中第二个拥有这个头衔的人。
So that was really cool.
所以这真的很酷。
Camille Hearst: And then as far as the Steve Jobs story, I would think I mentioned to you people like hearing this story, nothing happened, I just went up to him and said, "Hi, I'll tell the story."
卡米尔·赫斯特：就史蒂夫·乔布斯的故事而言，我想我向你们提到过，人们喜欢听这个故事，什么也没发生，我只是走到他面前说，“嗨，我会讲这个故事。”
Camille Hearst: But I think the context of why people find it interesting is because of other stories about Steve.
卡米尔·赫斯特：但我认为人们觉得它有趣的背景是因为有关史蒂夫的其他故事。
So let me give a little context.
让我提供一些背景信息。
Camille Hearst: Those Steve Jobs lore was that if you were in an elevator with him, you better be prepared to talk about what you do at the company because he had a habit of getting in the elevator and looking at you and saying, "What do you do?
卡米尔·赫斯特：史蒂夫·乔布斯的传说是，如果你和他一起在电梯里，你最好准备好谈论你在公司做什么，因为他习惯走进电梯看着你说：“你做什么？
What do you do here?" And there were also rumors that people who had not given him a good answer that ended up being their last day at Apple.
你在这里做什么？”还有传言说，那些没有给他一个好的答案的人最终会成为他们在苹果的最后一天。
Camille Hearst: So there was someone who I didn't know personally but worked in my department before I got there who got in an elevator and looked up and Steve was approaching him.
卡米尔·赫斯特：有一个我个人不认识的人，但在我到达那里之前在我的部门工作，他走进电梯，抬头一看，史蒂夫正在向他走来。
And so he went to press the button to open the door and accidentally press the one to close the door and was doing this press...
于是他去按开门按钮，不小心按了关门按钮，然后按了一下……
You can't see me if you're listening on podcast but frantically pressing the button, trying to open the door, but accidentally pressing the close door button and the elevator going to its destination.
如果你正在听播客，但疯狂地按下按钮，试图开门，但不小心按下了关门按钮，电梯就到了目的地，你就看不到我了。
And apparently he got off and just bolted straight up, ran down the hallway.
显然他下了车，径直跳了起来，跑过走廊。
So that's the context.: So in 2005, it's my first day of my internship at Apple and I had this situation where I attended graduation because I only had one semester left to go back to, so I just decided to attend the graduation.
背景就是这样。2005年，这是我在苹果实习的第一天，我遇到了这样的情况：我参加了毕业典礼，因为我只剩下一个学期可以回去，所以我决定参加毕业典礼。
That happened basically the week before.
这基本上发生在前一周。
And for those of you who are the job span, this is when he gave his really inspiring and famous Stanford commencement speech and it's an awesome, awesome thing to listen to.
对于那些在职的人来说，这是他发表真正鼓舞人心且著名的斯坦福大学毕业典礼演讲的时候，这是一件非常非常值得聆听的事情。
Lenny: Whoa.
莱尼：哇哦。
People love that speech.
人们喜欢那次演讲。
Lenny: What did you feel being there listening to it in the moment?
莱尼：当时你在那里听这首歌有什么感觉？
Totally inspired.: Apple was not quite what it is today in terms of brand and influence and just it's at the peak.
完全受到启发：苹果在品牌和影响力方面并不像今天这样，但它正处于顶峰。
It's really come a long way.
真的已经走了很长一段路了。
It was still when I met the recruiter at a conference, I was like, "Apple?
当我在一次会议上见到招聘人员时，我的反应是：“苹果？
What do they do again?
他们又做什么呢？
My roommate had a Mac, but what's iTunes?
我的室友有一台 Mac，但 iTunes 是什么？
Oh, yeah, I think I've heard of that.
哦，是的，我想我听说过。
I think..."
我想……”
Totally inspired.: The dancing iPod silhouette ads which really sent Apple over the top.
完全受到启发：跳舞的 iPod 剪影广告确实让苹果公司脱颖而出。
Those hadn't even really dropped yet, but it was starting, right?
这些甚至还没有真正下降，但它已经开始了，对吧？
It was starting to percolate and bubble and you heard more and more about it and just the association with music was making Apple more cool.
它开始渗透和冒泡，你听到的关于它的信息越来越多，仅仅与音乐的联系就让苹果变得更酷。
Totally inspired.: But that speech is...
完全受到启发。：但是那次演讲是......
Talk about a commencement speech.
谈论毕业典礼演讲。
That is top-notch.
那是一流的。
Totally inspired.: And Steve's great at those.
完全受到启发。：史蒂夫很擅长这些。
He was phenomenal storyteller.
他是一位出色的讲故事的人。
Totally inspired.: So graduation is what?
完全受到启发：那么毕业是什么？
Saturday, I go home Sunday.
周六，周日我回家。
The Monday I started my internship and here we are at Cafe Max with my new coworkers and Steve is sitting literally at the table next to me.
周一我开始实习，我们和我的新同事一起在 Cafe Max，史蒂夫就坐在我旁边的桌子上。
And so I was like, "Oh my gosh, there's Steve.
所以我就想，“天哪，史蒂夫来了。
I would love to say hi and introduce myself and everyone at the table."
我很想打个招呼，并介绍我自己和餐桌上的每个人。”
Totally inspired.: Now mind you, I hadn't heard this story about the elevator button in the full yet because it was my first day, but they're all looking at each other.
完全受到启发。：现在请注意，我还没有完整地听过有关电梯按钮的故事，因为这是我的第一天，但他们都在互相看着对方。
They're like, "Yeah, go say hi to him if you want, but you're an intern." They say, "Hopefully, he doesn't fire you on your first day."
他们会说，“是的，如果你愿意的话，可以去跟他打个招呼，但你是实习生。”他们说：“希望他不会在你第一天就解雇你。”
Totally inspired.: But I've always, in my family and in my life, had this encouragement to say hi to people when you see them and let them know that you appreciate what they do and just thank them because it doesn't happen often.
完全受到启发。：但在我的家庭和生活中，我总是受到这种鼓励，当你看到人们时向他们打招呼，让他们知道你欣赏他们所做的事情并感谢他们，因为这种情况并不经常发生。
Totally inspired.: A lot of times, people go and they ask for a picture or an autograph but this idea of just introducing yourself, saying hello, and thanking someone for something that they've done that impacted you to something that's been a way that my parents have encouraged me to behave in the world and something that I saw them do and saw them model because probably, again, coming from my dad being a musician and being fans of other musicians that like a thing in music, the artist culture that talked to one another about how something you created influenced you or whatnot.
完全受到启发。：很多时候，人们会去索要照片或签名，但这种想法只是自我介绍，打个招呼，感谢某人所做的事情对你产生了影响，这是我父母鼓励我在世界上行事的一种方式，也是我看到他们做的事情，看到他们的榜样，因为可能，再次，来自我父亲是一名音乐家，也是其他喜欢音乐中的东西的音乐家的粉丝，艺术家文化相互谈论你如何做某件事。创造影响了你或其他什么。
Totally inspired.: So I went up to him and I got up from my lunch table and walked over and I said, "Hi, my name's Camille.
完全受到启发。：所以我走到他身边，从午餐桌上站起来，走过去说：“嗨，我叫卡米尔。
I'm interning here this summer.
我今年夏天在这里实习。
It's my first day.
这是我的第一天。
I was at graduation at Stanford on Saturday and your speech was amazing.
周六我在斯坦福大学毕业典礼上，你的演讲非常棒。
I was really inspired.
我真的很受启发。
I'm so excited to be here and so excited to work on this company and I just wanted to say thank you for spending your time doing that speech for us on Saturday."
我很高兴来到这里，也很高兴能在这家公司工作，我只想对您花时间为我们在周六做演讲表示感谢。”
Totally inspired.: And he was like, "Who are you?
完全受到启发。：他就像，“你是谁？
What?
什么？
You're an intern?
你是实习生？
Well, what are you doing here?" It was a little...
嗯，你来这里做什么？”有点...
We had a little bit of an exchange.
我们进行了一些交流。
I had to clarify like, "Yeah, I graduated, but I'm interning and I have another semester left." And he was like, "Oh, okay.
我必须澄清，“是的，我毕业了，但我正在实习，而且还剩下一个学期。”他说：“哦，好吧。
Well, welcome to Apple and good luck and I hope you have a really great experience this summer." And that was it.
好吧，欢迎来到苹果，祝你好运，我希望你今年夏天有一个非常愉快的体验。”就是这样。
I didn't get fired and I said hello to Steve.
我没有被解雇，我向史蒂夫打了招呼。
Totally inspired.: And after that, I felt like I knew him.
完全受到启发。：在那之后，我觉得我认识他。
Every time, I'd see him around campus I'd wave high and I think he had no idea who I was but he would look at me confused and then wave back hello.
每次，我在校园里看到他，我都会高高挥手，我想他不知道我是谁，但他会困惑地看着我，然后挥手打招呼。
Lenny: "She's so friendly.
莱尼：“她非常友好。
Who's this person?"
这个人是谁？”
Lenny: Do you still remember how you would've described what you do?
莱尼：你还记得你会如何描述你所做的事情吗？
I have a feeling it's seared in your head, but if not, then never mind.
我有一种感觉，它已经在你的脑海中烙印了，但如果没有，那就没关系。
Camille Hearst: Oh, my statement, if he had asked me where .
卡米尔·赫斯特：哦，我的陈述，如果他问我在哪里的话。
Camille Hearst: Well, yeah, I was lucky because one of the things that I did he would actually know exactly what it is which is I would manage press rooms whenever there was an iTunes launch.
卡米尔·赫斯特：嗯，是的，我很幸运，因为我所做的一件事他实际上确切地知道它是什么，那就是每当 iTunes 发布时我都会管理新闻发布室。
So this is very much grunt work.
所以这是一项非常繁重的工作。
Camille Hearst: But when there would be a press event for one of the new iTunes 6 launch or whatever, they would have interviews with Walter Isaacson or I don't know if Kara Swisher was working back then, but whoever the journalist and Steve would have a room set up with an iMac computer with an iTunes library full of track.
卡米尔·赫斯特：但是，当有新的 iTunes 6 发布或其他活动的新闻发布会时，他们会采访沃尔特·艾萨克森，或者我不知道卡拉·斯威舍尔当时是否在工作，但无论是谁，这位记者和史蒂夫都会在一个房间里配备一台 iMac 电脑，里面有一个充满曲目的 iTunes 库。
There would be whatever the new iPod was synced to that computer and all of the track.
新的 iPod 会同步到那台电脑和所有曲目。
And after every interview, everything would have to be reset.
每次面试后，一切都必须重新设置。
Camille Hearst: Also, the library was crafted so he would give feedback for months on the content of the library because he would do demos.
Camille Hearst：另外，这个库的设计是为了让他能够在几个月内就库的内容提供反馈，因为他会做演示。
And so he wanted to know, "Make sure all my favorite tracks are in there, my favorite Beatles records, my favorite Bob Dylan records, and who's this artist?
所以他想知道，“确保我最喜欢的所有曲目都在那里，我最喜欢的披头士唱片，我最喜欢的鲍勃·迪伦唱片，以及这位艺术家是谁？
Let me check them out.
让我检查一下。
Okay, they don't cross the bar.
好吧，他们不会越界。
Oh, what's this song?
噢，这首歌是什么？
Oh, I love this song.
哦，我喜欢这首歌。
Oh, add this." So he was very involved in the entire presentation and someone had to go do all that.
哦，加上这个。”所以他非常参与整个演示，必须有人去做这一切。
Camille Hearst: So who better than the fresh out of masters of engineering in Stanford graduate student to go do all of the grunt work of making library?
卡米尔·赫斯特（Camille Hearst）：那么，还有谁比刚从斯坦福大学工程硕士毕业的研究生更适合承担创建图书馆的所有繁重工作呢？
But those are the kinds of details that he paid attention to.
但这些正是他所关注的细节。
And so I would've just told him that I did product marketing and one of my main responsibilities was fixing the press room for him and he would've been like, "Oh, okay."
所以我会告诉他我负责产品营销，我的主要职责之一是为他修理新闻发布室，他会说，“哦，好吧。”
Lenny: You mentioned that your title is product marketing manager and there was a recent kind of a hubbub on Twitter where Brian Chesky at Airbnb shared that they shifted the role of product manager to essentially the Apple model.
Lenny：你提到你的头衔是产品营销经理，最近 Twitter 上引起了一阵骚动，Airbnb 的 Brian Chesky 表示，他们将产品经理的角色转变为苹果模式。
And I'm curious what your perspective is on that approach to product, the Apple kind of way versus a traditional product manager?
我很好奇你对这种产品方法有何看法，苹果的方式与传统的产品经理相比？
Camille Hearst: They have done this very intentionally from what I've seen.
卡米尔·赫斯特：据我所知，他们是故意这样做的。
I know they hired Hiroki actually from Apple-
我知道他们实际上从苹果聘请了 Hiroki-
Camille Hearst: Yeah.
卡米尔·赫斯特：是的。
And actually one of the new leaders they've hired, I don't know if you know Judson Coplan, dear friend of mine, we interned that same summer at Apple and he worked there for 15 years before heading over to Airbnb.
事实上，他们聘用的新领导之一，我不知道你是否认识我亲爱的朋友贾德森·科普兰 (Judson Coplan)，同年夏天我们在苹果公司实习，他在那里工作了 15 年，然后才转到 Airbnb。
Camille Hearst: But yeah, the Apple construct, it's much more of design and engineering led organizations, craftspeople I would say more so than strategy people.
卡米尔·赫斯特：但是，是的，苹果的结构更多的是设计和工程主导的组织，我想说的是工匠，而不是战略人员。
So that was one of the stark differences I saw in my transition from Apple to Google.
这就是我从苹果过渡到谷歌过程中看到的明显差异之一。
There are a lot more like people from Coca-Cola and McKinsey and Bain at Google.
像可口可乐、麦肯锡和谷歌贝恩这样的人还有很多。
I don't think any of those people even existed at Apple.
我认为苹果公司根本不存在这些人。
Camille Hearst: And it was very much like, "Let's 3D chess our way into what our next move is going to be." Whereas at Apple it was, "Let's tinker and let's craft and let's build and let's see what feels right." There's different approaches.
卡米尔·赫斯特：这很像，“让我们通过 3D 国际象棋来了解我们的下一步行动。”而在苹果，则是“让我们修补、制作、构建，然后看看什么是正确的。”有不同的方法。
As a result, the approach to product management was quite different.
结果，产品管理的方法就完全不同了。
Camille Hearst: So I think it makes sense.
卡米尔·赫斯特：所以我认为这是有道理的。
Brian Chesky's background is a designer so it probably resonates a bit more within the Apple way.
Brian Chesky 的背景是一名设计师，因此它可能更符合苹果的风格。
Camille Hearst: And then in terms of what it means for product managers on an individual level, so again, there weren't product managers, the closest thing would've been CPMs, technical program managers who help manage the sprints and manage the schedule and listing out what features would happen.
卡米尔·赫斯特（Camille Hearst）：就个人层面而言，这对产品经理意味着什么，因此，没有产品经理，最接近的就是 CPM，技术项目经理，他们帮助管理冲刺和管理时间表，并列出将要发生的功能。
Camille Hearst: I spent a lot of my time with the incredibly talented design team and if I had ideas of product features or...
卡米尔·赫斯特：我花了很多时间与才华横溢的设计团队一起工作，如果我对产品功能有想法或......
We would think months ahead of time, like what's the anchor story or what are the three key messages for the launch of iTunes 10 or whatever and we might have ideas for new features that would go in that.
我们会提前几个月思考，比如主播故事是什么，或者 iTunes 10 发布的三个关键信息是什么，或者其他什么，我们可能会对其中的新功能有想法。
Camille Hearst: But because we had that moment in time, we knew well ahead we were planning for and you were working on the messaging and working on the consumer positioning again while in advance of anything actually being live or built.
卡米尔·赫斯特：但是因为我们及时赶上了这个时刻，所以我们很清楚我们正在计划，并且在任何实际投入使用或建造之前，您都在致力于信息传递并再次致力于消费者定位。
That was what framed what features you wanted to build and what problems you would put on the table to be solved as opposed to as clear cut metric you're trying to drive forward which is how product management has evolved in another capacity.
这就是你想要构建哪些功能以及你将要解决哪些问题的框架，而不是你试图推动的明确指标，这就是产品管理在另一种能力中的发展方式。
Lenny: And that's how it works at most companies.
莱尼：大多数公司都是这样运作的。
Lenny: I want to come back actually to the creator economy stuff.
莱尼：我想回到创作者经济的话题上来。
I feel like you've worked in the creator economy longer than most anyone, and so I wanted to use our time to spend a little more time there.
我觉得你在创作者经济中工作的时间比大多数人都长，所以我想利用我们的时间在那里多花一点时间。
What about on the platform side?
平台方面呢？
If someone were thinking about starting a company to cater to creators, to build a new platform maybe for creators to make a living, do you have any advice for them?
如果有人正在考虑创办一家公司来迎合创作者，建立一个新的平台，也许可以为创作者谋生，你对他们有什么建议吗？
Where do you think maybe there's opportunity?
您认为哪里可能有机会？
Where do you think it's like, "No, probably you don't want to spend time here?"
你认为哪里像是“不，你可能不想在这里花时间？”
Camille Hearst: I think with any company, solving a real problem is the most important thing.
卡米尔·赫斯特：我认为对于任何公司来说，解决实际问题是最重要的。
So creators have lots of challenges and things that can be solved.
所以创作者有很多挑战和可以解决的事情。
Some painful things are more acutely felt than others.
有些痛苦的事情比其他事情更能感受到。
Camille Hearst: I think at the core, every creator needs two things.
卡米尔·赫斯特：我认为从本质上讲，每个创作者都需要两件事。
They need to grow an audience and they need to get paid so that they can make a living.
他们需要扩大观众群，需要获得报酬才能谋生。
And in some ways, I do think that growing an audience is more important because with that audience, it opens up opportunities in ways that you can monetize.
从某些方面来说，我确实认为扩大受众群体更为重要，因为有了这些受众群体，它就可以为您提供货币化的机会。
Camille Hearst: But there are all kinds of other things like we're talking about financing, health insurance, the list goes on, things we face as human beings, trying to be freelancers in the world often apply equally to people who are creative for a living.
卡米尔·赫斯特：但是还有各种各样的其他事情，比如我们谈论的融资、健康保险，这样的例子不胜枚举，我们作为人类面临的事情，试图成为世界上的自由职业者，通常同样适用于那些以创造力为生的人。
Camille Hearst: And then there are unique things about the creator space like the spurts of energy, the spurts of creative flow that maybe don't apply in a salary job or an hourly job.
卡米尔·赫斯特：创作者空间有一些独特的东西，比如能量的爆发、创意的爆发，这些可能不适用于带薪工作或计时工作。
Camille Hearst: So there are lots of problems out there still to be solved for creators.
卡米尔·赫斯特：对于创作者来说，还有很多问题需要解决。
I don't think that this space is nearly solved, done, stick a fork in it.
我不认为这个空间几乎已经解决了，完成了，在里面插一个叉子。
So my advice would be to look at the problems that exist and pick a real one and go for it.
所以我的建议是看看存在的问题并选择一个真正的问题并解决它。
Wise advice.: Have you seen this podcaster, Bobbi, I forget her last name, she rocketed up to the fourth biggest podcast in America with a few episodes of her podcast, she interviews Drake and a few comedians.
明智的建议：你见过这个播客吗，博比，我忘了她的姓氏，她凭借几集播客飙升至美国第四大播客，她采访了德雷克和一些喜剧演员。
Have you seen this person?
你见过这个人吗？
Camille Hearst: I feel like I should, but as we said at the beginning, I'm such a music head, I don't listen to any podcast.
卡米尔·赫斯特：我觉得我应该听，但正如我们一开始所说的，我是一个音乐头脑，我不听任何播客。
Lenny: The reason I thought of her is I was watching a clip of her on an interview show and she hasn't made any money from this even though she's got the hottest podcast in America right now, and we're going to link to her in the show notes, but she's hilarious.
莱尼：我想到她的原因是我在一个采访节目中观看了她的剪辑，尽管她现在拥有美国最热门的播客，但她并没有从中赚到任何钱，而且我们将在节目笔记中链接到她，但她很搞笑。
Lenny: There's something about her that just is really fun to watch.
莱尼：她身上有一些东西真的很有趣。
But okay, no podcast for you right now.
但好吧，现在没有适合您的播客。
We'll get you on a podcast.
我们将为您提供播客。
You're on the podcast.
你在播客上。
There we go.: You've mentioned your parents and I was reading your Wikipedia page and the way your parents are described on there is radical Buddhist artists technologists.
我们开始吧：你提到了你的父母，我正在阅读你的维基百科页面，那里描述你父母的方式是激进的佛教艺术家技术专家。
I'm curious what that means maybe and then also just is there a memory or moment of growing up that highlights that aspect of them?
我很好奇这可能意味着什么，还有是否有一段记忆或成长的时刻突出了他们的这一方面？
Camille Hearst: What's funny about this is I had no idea how to Wikipedia page until you sent that.
卡米尔·赫斯特：有趣的是，在你发送之前，我不知道如何访问维基百科页面。
Camille Hearst: I don't know where it came from.
卡米尔·赫斯特：我不知道它是从哪里来的。
Camille Hearst: Like, "What?
卡米尔·赫斯特：就像，“什么？
I'm on Wikipedia?" So that was funny.
我在维基百科上？”这很有趣。
Yeah.: So let's see.
是的。：所以让我们看看。
I grew up in San Francisco in the eighties and nineties.
我八九十年代在旧金山长大。
My parents started practicing Buddhism on the East Coast in the seventies.
我的父母于七十年代开始在东海岸修行佛教。
And my dad was, I mentioned he's a drummer and a musician, and he also had a studio.
我父亲是，我提到他是一名鼓手和音乐家，他也有一个工作室。
We had this closet under the stairs that he turned into a production studio and he was an artist.
我们在楼梯下有一个壁橱，他把它变成了一个制作工作室，他是一名艺术家。
Yeah.: He worked for the city.
是的。：他为这座城市工作。
My mom worked for the city, didn't have a ton of money growing up, and so a lot of the computer equipment came from the street.
我妈妈在城里工作，成长过程中没有很多钱，所以很多电脑设备都来自街上。
He would find...
他会发现...
Somebody put a PC out...
有人把电脑拿出来了...
He was building PCs before the gamers were doing it.
在游戏玩家开始制造个人电脑之前，他就已经开始制造个人电脑了。
And I remember he would come home with boxes and boards and chips and would literally go get a book from the library or the store and would figure out how to assemble these computers, keyboards that were broken.
我记得他会带着盒子、电路板和芯片回家，然后去图书馆或商店买一本书，然后弄清楚如何组装这些坏掉的电脑和键盘。
He would just fix them.
他只会修复它们。
Probably should have been a mechanical engineer, super talented at this stuff.
可能应该是一名机械工程师，在这方面非常有天赋。
Yeah.: But basically he had this entire production studio with drum machines and all the equipment.
是的。：但基本上他拥有整个制作工作室，配有鼓机和所有设备。
And I was his helper.
而我是他的帮手。
So I would help him solder stuff together and tinker and actually put these computers together.
所以我会帮助他将东西焊接在一起并修补，并将这些计算机实际组装在一起。
So that's probably...
那么这很可能是...
I don't know where that quote came from.
我不知道这句话出自哪里。
I'll have to go click the link of what the reference is from, but that's some of the background there.
我必须点击参考文献来源的链接，但这就是其中的一些背景。
Yeah.: And the other thing that happened back in San Francisco in the eighties and nineties, we used to host Buddhist meetings in our house and back then there was a lot of what was called street propagation like the Hare Krishna used to be up and down Haight Street right around the corner for me.
是的。：上世纪八十年代和九十年代在旧金山发生的另一件事，我们曾经在家里举办佛教会议，当时有很多所谓的街头传播，就像 Hare Krishna 曾经在我附近的海特街上下。
Yeah.: The Nation of Islam, which my brother joined for a period of time, would be selling Final Calls and bean pie brothers on the corners.
是的。：我哥哥加入过一段时间的伊斯兰国家组织会在街角卖《最后的召唤》和《豆馅饼兄弟》。
Camille Hearst: So The Final Call is the newspaper at the time for the Nation of Islam.
卡米尔·赫斯特：《最后的召唤》是当时伊斯兰国家报的报纸。
Camille Hearst: And so it was just a different era, completely different from today, and us practicing Nichiren Buddhism, we had pamphlet that said, "Nam myoho renge kyo," on them, and I would stand on the steps of our house and...
卡米尔·赫斯特：那是一个不同的时代，与今天完全不同，我们信仰日莲佛法，我们有一本小册子，上面写着“Nam myoho renge kyo”，我会站在我们家的台阶上......
We had a gate.
我们有一个门。
So I would stand behind the gate and I'm probably seven or eight years old, just ask people walking by, "Hey, if you're a nam myoho renge kyo, here's a pamphlet.
所以我会站在大门后面，我大概七八岁，就问路过的人，“嘿，如果你是南无妙法莲华教，这里有一本小册子。
Learn a little more.
多学一点。
We're having a meeting at our house."
我们正在家里开会。”
Camille Hearst: I'd laugh with my mom now.
卡米尔·赫斯特：我现在会和妈妈一起笑。
She's like, "I can't believe we're doing that." It seems totally crazy now but at the time, it was just, again, coming off of the seventies, it was a very different era.
她说，“我不敢相信我们会这么做。”现在看来这完全是疯狂的，但在当时，这又是七十年代的产物，那是一个非常不同的时代。
Camille Hearst: If you've ever seen What's Love Got To Do With It, Tina Turner's probably...
卡米尔·赫斯特：如果你看过《爱情与它有何关系》，蒂娜·特纳可能...
Who recently passed away, probably one of the more famous, more well-known practitioners of Nichiren Buddhism and she actually started practicing in the same kind of era, seventies and eighties...
她最近去世了，可能是日莲佛法中比较有名、比较知名的修行者之一，她实际上是在同一个时代，七十年代和八十年代开始修行的……
Or seventies probably.
或者可能是七十岁。
Camille Hearst: So that's what that means.
卡米尔·赫斯特：这就是这个意思。
And those are a couple memories that illustrate that moment.
这些是说明那一刻的一些记忆。
But you can see, music, technology, helping creators get paid, it's certainly influenced everything about how I am today.
但你可以看到，音乐、技术、帮助创作者获得报酬，它肯定影响了我今天的一切。
Lenny: That was a perfect description of your parents based on those stories.
莱尼：这是根据这些故事对你父母的完美描述。
And it feels inevitable that you would've ended up doing what you're doing now.
你最终会做现在正在做的事情，这感觉是不可避免的。
Product, technology, music, artists, creators.
产品、技术、音乐、艺术家、创作者。
So that's amazing.
所以这太棒了。
Lenny: I'm going to ask one more question before we get to our very exciting lightning round, and the question is just around frameworks.
Lenny：在我们进入非常令人兴奋的闪电回合之前，我要再问一个问题，这个问题与框架有关。
Is there just a favorite framework or process or system or approach to building product or teams that you come back to and/or to share often that you think might be useful to listeners?
是否有一个您最喜欢的框架、流程、系统或方法来构建产品或团队，您会经常回来和/或分享您认为可能对听众有用的内容？
Camille Hearst: I have this great manager in my experience at Hailo who turned me on to Marty Cagan who I since befriended and learned a ton from.
卡米尔·赫斯特：根据我在 Hailo 的经历，我有一位出色的经理，他让我认识了马蒂·凯根 (Marty Cagan)，从那时起我就与他成为了朋友，并从他身上学到了很多东西。
And I just love the way that-
我就是喜欢这样——
Camille Hearst: Yeah, he's awesome.
卡米尔·赫斯特：是的，他很棒。
Actually, I should ask him about early days at eBay because I think he was there probably one of the people who got off the ground.
事实上，我应该向他询问早期在 eBay 的经历，因为我认为他可能是其中起步较早的人之一。
Camille Hearst: But one of the things that I learned and that we really emphasized during that time is this idea of having dual track agile going where you're doing discovery and delivery simultaneously and doing it in a way that's not waterfall.
Camille Hearst：但是我学到的并且我们在那段时间真正强调的一件事是双轨敏捷的想法，即同时进行发现和交付，并且以非瀑布的方式进行。
Camille Hearst: It's not like, "All right, the designers are going to go over here and tinker for months, and then once we've figured it out, we'll lob it over the wall to the coders and cross our fingers and hope everything works." But rather having this continuous cycle of essentially de-risking your assumption and getting to a point where you're able to do that with speed so that you can chart your way to new paths and to innovation by constantly figuring out where the errors are in your thinking or where things that you didn't expect to happen were going to happen.
卡米尔·赫斯特（Camille Hearst）：这并不是说，“好吧，设计师们会来这里修补几个月，然后一旦我们弄清楚了，我们就会把它扔过墙给编码员，祈祷一切顺利。”而是通过这种连续的循环，从本质上降低你的假设风险，并达到你能够快速做到这一点的程度，这样你就可以通过不断找出你的思维中的错误或你没有预料到的事情会发生的地方来规划新的路径和创新。
Camille Hearst: So I think everyone knows an impact effort or risk reward two by two and can map out different opportunities and things you might do on that two by two.
卡米尔·赫斯特：所以我认为每个人都知道两两的影响力努力或风险回报，并且可以两两地规划出不同的机会和你可能做的事情。
Camille Hearst: But one of my favorite takeaways from that is that from this way of working around this dual track agile de-risking your riskiest ideas first approach is a concept of taking the things in the top, the biggest swing and actually prioritizing those first in terms of product discovery and figuring out what can you do to start de-risking because if you constantly put those off in favor of the lower risk or more predictable smaller swings, how are you ever going to truly innovate and get to the next level.
卡米尔·赫斯特（Camille Hearst）：但我最喜欢的收获之一是，从这种双轨敏捷的工作方式中，降低你最危险的想法的风险第一方法是一种概念，即把事情放在顶部，最大的波动，并在产品发现方面实际上优先考虑这些事情，并弄清楚你可以做什么来开始降低风险，因为如果你不断地推迟那些以支持较低风险或更可预测的较小波动，你将如何真正创新并进入下一个水平。
Camille Hearst: It's a less safe choice.
卡米尔·赫斯特：这是一个不太安全的选择。
So it's someone that as a leader, you are in the hot seat and you can take accountability.
因此，作为领导者，你处于困境并且可以承担责任。
So if some of these things don't pan out, it's on you and not on your team and give your team permission to fail and try things and de-risk those risky assumptions and get them to a point where they become low risk and they become predictable and you can just put them in the delivery column and execute them.
因此，如果其中一些事情没有成功，那是你的责任，而不是你的团队的责任，并允许你的团队失败并尝试一些事情，降低这些风险假设的风险，使它们达到低风险、可预测的程度，你可以将它们放入交付栏中并执行它们。
Lenny: It reminds me of this piece of advice that people call eat the frog which is first thing in the morning eat the frog which essentially is do the hardest thing first and then there's the day becomes easier.
莱尼：这让我想起一条建议，人们称之为吃青蛙，这是早上的第一件事，吃青蛙本质上是先做最难的事情，然后这一天就会变得更容易。
Lenny: I don't know why it's eat a frog, I don't know where that comes from.
莱尼：我不知道它为什么要吃青蛙，我不知道它从哪里来。
Camille Hearst: I don't know either.
卡米尔·赫斯特：我也不知道。
I like draw the owl.
我喜欢画猫头鹰。
That's one of my favorite values, the Twilio ones.
这是我最喜欢的价值观之一，即 Twilio 价值观。
Lenny: Say more.
莱尼：再说吧。
I would say more.
我想说更多。
What is that?
那是什么？
Camille Hearst: Companies have their values.
卡米尔·赫斯特：公司有自己的价值观。
One of them is draw the owl.
其中之一是画猫头鹰。
It's really draw the effing owl and the meme is how do you draw an owl and you draw some circles and then you draw a fucking owl.
这真的是画那该死的猫头鹰，模因是如何画一只猫头鹰，画一些圆圈，然后画一只该死的猫头鹰。
So it's like just do it.
所以这就像是做它一样。
At some point, you got to just figure it out and figure out how to do it.
在某些时候，你必须弄清楚并弄清楚如何去做。
Camille Hearst: Excuse my language, but it's funnier when you say what the value actually is which is sometimes you got to just go for it.
卡米尔·赫斯特：请原谅我的语言，但当你说出实际价值是什么时，这更有趣，有时你必须追求它。
You're not going to know the exact path to get there and maybe you won't have de-risked everything but you start with some circles and then you get it done.
你不会知道到达那里的确切路径，也许你不会降低一切风险，但你从一些圈子开始，然后你就完成了。
Lenny: I love it.
莱尼：我喜欢。
Cursing is very loud on this podcast, so I'm glad you went there.
这个播客上的咒骂声很大，所以我很高兴你去了那里。
Lenny: And with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
莱尼：这样，我们就进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Camille Hearst: I hope so.
卡米尔·赫斯特：我希望如此。
I didn't prepare this.
我没有准备这个。
I thought I'd figured out on the spot.
我以为我当场就明白了。
Great.
伟大的。
Perfect.: What are two or three books that you recommended most to other people?
Perfect.：您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？
Camille Hearst: Three-Body Problem, A Wrinkle in Time, and Octavia Butler's Kindred.
卡米尔·赫斯特：《三体》、《时间的皱纹》和《奥克塔维亚·巴特勒的亲属》。
Lenny: Three-Body Problem's come up a number of times recently and there's a show coming out actually based on the book.
莱尼：《三体》最近出现了很多次，而且有一部根据这本书改编的电视剧正在上映。
Lenny: I'm so excited.
莱尼：我太兴奋了。
I've been watching Foundation which is also another series I've been excited to see, but it's like, I don't know what's going on.
我一直在看《基金会》，这也是我很高兴看到的另一个系列，但我不知道发生了什么。
It's so complicated.
太复杂了。
Camille Hearst: How is it?
卡米尔·赫斯特：怎么样？
I've been waiting...
我一直在等待...
Camille Hearst: So I'm a huge sci-fi head.
卡米尔·赫斯特：所以我是一个巨大的科幻头脑。
I watched Battlestar Galactica.
我看了太空堡垒卡拉狄加。
Classic.
经典的。
and so I've been waiting to see what happens with Foundation because I just don't have that kind of commitment in me these days.
所以我一直在等着看基金会会发生什么，因为这些天我没有那种承诺。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
I don't know what to think of it.
我不知道该怎么想。
It's beautiful and there's a lot of interesting pieces but it just goes out...
它很漂亮，有很多有趣的作品，但它就这样消失了……
I think they're making a lot of stuff up.
我认为他们编造了很多东西。
I don't know if you've read Silo.
不知道你是否读过《筒仓》。
Have you read Silo?
你读过《筒仓》吗？
Camille Hearst: No. But I saw the preview for the show.
卡米尔·赫斯特：没有。但我看到了该剧的预览。
Another one I'm going to season two.
另一个我要去第二季。
Lenny: That's a good one to read because in the show...
莱尼：这是一本很好读的书，因为在剧中……
They're just making up stories.
他们只是在编故事。
I don't know what they're doing.
我不知道他们在做什么。
There's...
有...
Ninety percent of it, they just totally invent for the show and then there's a little bit that's connected to the story so I don't know what's going on.
其中百分之九十的内容，他们完全是为了节目而发明的，然后有一点与故事有关，所以我不知道发生了什么。
Camille Hearst: Okay.
卡米尔·赫斯特：好的。
Cool.
凉爽的。
I didn't even know it was a book.
我什至不知道这是一本书。
I'll read it.
我会读它。
Lenny: Oh, yeah.
莱尼：哦，是的。
It's really good.
真的很好。
There's three of them, but the first one's the only good one, so I found.
一共有三个，但第一个是唯一好的，所以我发现。
Lenny: Anyway, moving on.
莱尼：不管怎样，继续吧。
Speaking of this topic actually, any favorite recent movies or TV shows that you've really enjoyed?
其实说到这个话题，最近有什么你特别喜欢的电影或电视剧吗？
Camille Hearst: I've been watching Hijack over the last week with Idris Elba.
卡米尔·赫斯特：上周我和伊德里斯·艾尔巴一起观看了《劫持》。
So that's been fun.
所以这很有趣。
Got a couple episodes left there.
还剩下几集。
Camille Hearst: And then movies, I'm a huge Chris Nolan fan.
卡米尔·赫斯特：然后是电影，我是克里斯·诺兰的超级粉丝。
So I haven't seen Oppenheimer yet, but can't wait to see it.
所以我还没见过奥本海默，但迫不及待地想看看。
Most of his movies I'm confused by, but the visuals are just so stunning if you let it go.
他的大部分电影都让我感到困惑，但如果你放手的话，视觉效果会非常令人惊叹。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
I'm excited to see it too.
我也很高兴看到它。
I've not seen it either.
我也没见过。
Have a new child and it's harder to see movies .
有了新孩子，看电影就更难了。
Camille Hearst: Oh, another good one.
卡米尔·赫斯特：噢，又一个好东西。
Shadow and Bone on Netflix.
Netflix 上的《影子与骨头》。
Camille Hearst: Way better than the book I have to say.
卡米尔·赫斯特：我不得不说比这本书好得多。
Well, I read one series, the Six of Crows.
嗯，我读了一个系列，《乌鸦六人》。
This is my young adult sci-fi fantasy streak.
这是我年轻时的科幻幻想倾向。
Again, coming to the forth.
再次，来到第四。
But the show is incredible.
但这个节目令人难以置信。
It is so good.
真是太好了。
So if you're into-
所以如果你喜欢-
Camille Hearst: ...
卡米尔·赫斯特：...
this kind of vibe, go for it.
这样的氛围，加油。
Okay.
好的。
I'm going to check that out.: What is a favorite interview question that you like to ask people when you're interviewing them?
我要去看看。：当你面试人们时，你最喜欢问的面试问题是什么？
Camille Hearst: I like to ask people to tell me about something they're really proud of that they accomplished and take me through the process and talk to me about why they're proud of it.
卡米尔·赫斯特：我喜欢请人们告诉我他们真正为自己所取得的成就感到自豪的事情，并带我完成整个过程，并告诉我为什么他们为此感到自豪。
I find you can learn so much about a person's motivations, about their work ethic, about what they care about, what good looks like to them, and I think those are all really important things to understand about a person if you're going to work closely with them.
我发现你可以了解到很多关于一个人的动机、他们的职业道德、他们关心什么、他们的优点，我认为如果你要与一个人密切合作，这些都是了解一个人非常重要的事情。
Lenny: What is a favorite life motto that you just really like to share or often come back to either in work or in life?
Lenny：您最喜欢分享或在工作或生活中经常回顾的人生格言是什么？
Camille Hearst: Yeah.
卡米尔·赫斯特：是的。
So there's one which is actually a Japanese proverb.
有一句话实际上是日本谚语。
I took Japanese in high school and college but this phrase is a frog in a well cannot know the ocean.
我在高中和大学学过日语，但这句话是井底之蛙不知大海。
And so the idea is to push yourself to expand your limits and your horizons and get out of the well so that you can experience the ocean.
因此，我们的想法是推动自己扩大极限和视野，走出井口，体验海洋。
Camille Hearst: I learned this one from someone at Patreon because someone was posting this around the streets of San Francisco.
卡米尔·赫斯特（Camille Hearst）：我从 Patreon 的某个人那里了解到这个，因为有人在旧金山的街道上张贴了这个。
It's become more known recently.
最近它变得更加知名。
Apparently, it's a Chinese proverb.
显然，这是一句中国谚语。
I don't know if it's true or not but it is that the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago, the second best time is now.
我不知道这是真是假，但是种一棵树最好的时间是20年前，其次是现在。
So this idea that don't delay, maybe you missed the prime opportunity but waiting any longer certainly isn't going to help.
所以这个想法不要拖延，也许你错过了最好的机会，但再等肯定不会有帮助。
Lenny: I heard that one actually I was at the park in San Francisco and there was this piano thing, I think it was called, it's a botanical garden and people play piano all throughout once a year.
莱尼：我听说，实际上我在旧金山的公园里，有一个钢琴的东西，我想它被称为，它是一个植物园，人们每年都会弹一次钢琴。
And there's a guy that was just playing incredibly well and I left and he left around the same time and I was standing next to him.
有一个人打得非常好，我离开了，他大约在同一时间离开了，我站在他旁边。
I'm like, "Man, I wish I studied piano when I was younger." And he's like, "The best time to have studied piano is 10 years ago.
我想，“伙计，我希望我年轻时学过钢琴。”他说：“学习钢琴最好的时间是十年前。
The second best time is to start now."
第二个最佳时机是现在开始。”
Lenny: And I couldn't get off the hook there.
莱尼：我无法摆脱困境。
He is like, "You're right.
他就像是，“你是对的。
And you're still not going to do it I guess."
我猜你还是不会这么做。”
Lenny: Final question, who's a favorite artist right now?
莱尼：最后一个问题，现在最喜欢的艺术家是谁？
Who are you liking?
你喜欢谁？
Camille Hearst: Ooh.
卡米尔·赫斯特：哦。
So I've been for probably a good three years now really into Afrobeat and right now there's this artist called Rema, R-E-M-A, who I first heard a couple years ago, he's got this track called Dumebi.
所以我对 Afrobeat 的兴趣大概已经三年了，现在有一位名叫 Rema、R-E-M-A 的艺术家，我几年前第一次听到他的声音，他有一首名为 Dumebi 的歌曲。
But he has a song out right now that is, my opinion, song of the summer called Calm Down.
但他现在有一首歌曲，我认为，这是夏天的歌曲，名叫《Calm Down》。
I think Ariana Grande, is it, came over and did a verse on it?
我想爱莉安娜·格兰德（Ariana Grande）过来并对此做了一首诗？
But I've just been listening to Rema Radio, Calm Down radio on Spotify and tons of Afrobeats artists.
但我刚刚听过 Rema Radio、Spotify 上的 Calm Down 广播以及大量的 Afrobeats 艺术家。
So that's the vibe I'm on right now.
这就是我现在的氛围。
Lenny: I love it.
莱尼：我喜欢。
I actually...
我其实...
Once someone suggested some music at the end of a podcast and I was just like, "Hey, we're going to end the podcast with that tune." And it turned out we did that and then YouTube shut us down because it's copyrighted and so I'm not going to offer.
有一次有人在播客结束时推荐了一些音乐，我就想，“嘿，我们要用那首曲子来结束播客。”结果我们这样做了，然后 YouTube 关闭了我们，因为它受版权保护，所以我不会提供。
Never going to do that again, so we're just ending with regular music but we'll link-
再也不会这样做了，所以我们只是以普通音乐结束，但我们会链接-
Lenny: I know.
莱尼：我知道。
It's so tough.
太难了。
Come on.
快点。
It's just like a few seconds.
就好像几秒钟的时间。
Give us a break.
让我们休息一下。
Camille Hearst: You should have 30 seconds for your play.
卡米尔·赫斯特：你应该有 30 秒的时间进行表演。
Right?
正确的？
Camille Hearst: Don't ask me, I'm not a lawyer.
卡米尔·赫斯特：别问我，我不是律师。
Lenny: Camille, this was amazing.
莱尼：卡米尔，这太棒了。
I think we're living the creator economy here.
我认为我们在这里生活着创造者经济。
I really appreciate you making time for this.
我真的很感谢你抽出时间来做这件事。
Lenny: Two final questions.
莱尼：最后两个问题。
Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and maybe ask any additional questions?
如果人们想联系您并询问任何其他问题，可以在哪里找到您？
And then how can listeners be useful to you?
那么听众如何对你有用呢？
Camille Hearst: I used to be real big on Twitter but that ship has sailed.
卡米尔·赫斯特：我曾经在 Twitter 上很活跃，但那艘船已经航行了。
I'm still on there.
我还在那儿。
You can find me-
你可以找到我——
Camille Hearst: Yes, on X.
卡米尔·赫斯特：是的，在 X 上。
Camillionz is my handle, C-A-M-I-L-L-I-O-N-Z.
Cammillionz 是我的昵称，C-A-M-I-L-L-I-O-N-Z。
Also on Threads these days, trying that out, seeing if that sticks.
这些天也在 Threads 上尝试一下，看看是否能坚持下去。
So probably LinkedIn.
所以可能是 LinkedIn。
You could find me on LinkedIn.
你可以在 LinkedIn 上找到我。
I don't think anyone ever promotes that.
我认为没有人提倡这一点。
Lenny: They do.
莱尼：是的。
Most people actually.
大多数人其实。
Okay.: And how can listeners be useful to me?
好的：那么听众对我有什么用处呢？
Hey, go support your favorite creator.
嘿，去支持你最喜欢的创作者吧。
Find out, go to the show, find out if they have a Patreon.
去看看，看看他们是否有 Patreon。
I would love to see more and more people feeling like they are patrons of the arts.
我希望看到越来越多的人感觉自己是艺术的赞助人。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
Maybe buy some merch.
也许买一些商品。
Lenny: Camille, thank you again for being here.
莱尼：卡米尔，再次感谢你来到这里。
Bye, everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.
再见，大家：非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。