The things engineers are desperate for PMs to understand | Camille Fournier (“The Manager’s Path”)

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm curious what it is that PMs do that annoy engineers most.

Lenny Rachitsky：我很好奇 PM 的哪些行为最让工程师烦恼。

Camille Fournier: Hoarding credit.

卡米尔·福尼尔：囤积信用。

PMs, they tend to be the front-facing person for initiative.

产品经理，他们往往是主动提出建议的最前面的人。

Engineers sometimes think that they don't get the credit for their work because the PM takes all the glory and all the credit for the project that they really worked very hard on.

工程师有时会认为他们的工作没有得到认可，因为项目经理拿走了他们真正努力工作的项目的所有荣耀和功劳。

Lenny Rachitsky: I find the best PMs are the ones that talk the least and encourage other people to do the presenting-

Lenny Rachitsky：我发现最好的产品经理是那些说话最少并鼓励其他人进行演示的人 -

Camille Fournier: The next thing that engineers really get annoyed about with PMs, when they just don't understand the details and act like they don't matter, it just shows a real lack of empathy for the work that engineers are doing and I think it really can be very off-putting.

Camille Fournier：工程师真正对产品经理感到恼火的下一件事是，当他们不了解细节并且表现得好像他们无关紧要时，这只是表明他们对工程师正在做的工作缺乏同理心，我认为这确实会非常令人反感。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there any insight you can give about what people may be missed about the motivation of engineers, what gets them excited?

Lenny Rachitsky：对于人们可能会错过的关于工程师动机的哪些方面，以及是什么让他们感到兴奋，你能提供一些见解吗？

Camille Fournier: A lot of people assume that engineers just write code and don't underestimate the ability for your engineers to want to understand the business problem, want to understand the customer problem.

Camille Fournier：很多人认为工程师只是编写代码，并且不要低估工程师想要理解业务问题、想要理解客户问题的能力。

I think the product managers that have done the best, they're not threatened by other people having ideas.

我认为做得最好的产品经理不会受到其他有想法的人的威胁。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Camille Fournier.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：今天，我的客人是卡米尔·福尼尔。

Camille is one of the most respected technology executives in tech and the author of the Manager's Path, which many considered the definitive guide for navigating your career and moving into management.

卡米尔是科技界最受尊敬的技术高管之一，也是《经理人之路》一书的作者，许多人认为这本书是职业生涯和进入管理领域的权威指南。

Over the course of her career, she was CTO of Rent The Runway, VP of technology at Goldman Sachs, global head of engineering and architecture at JP Morgan Chase and head of platform engineering at Two Sigma.

在她的职业生涯中，她曾担任 Rent The Runway 的首席技术官、高盛的技术副总裁、摩根大通的工程和架构全球主管以及 Two Sigma 的平台工程主管。

She's also releasing a new book later this year called Platform Engineering, A Guide for Technical Product and People Leaders, which you can actually pre-order today and we get into this topic in the latter half of the conversation.

她还在今年晚些时候发布了一本新书，名为《平台工程、技术产品和人员领导者指南》，您今天就可以预订这本书，我们将在对话的后半部分讨论这个主题。

Lenny Rachitsky: We also dig into what PMs do that most annoys engineers and how to stop doing these things.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们还深入研究了 PM 所做的最让工程师烦恼的事情以及如何停止做这些事情。

Why major rewrites are often a trap.

为什么重大重写常常是一个陷阱。

Why you may want to be doing fewer one-on-ones.

为什么您可能希望减少一对一的交流。

What most surprises people when they become a manager and some really useful heuristics for how long you should stay in IC before you make the leap into management and tons more.

当人们成为经理时最令人惊讶的是什么，以及一些真正有用的启发法，告诉你在进入管理岗位之前应该在 IC 呆多久，等等。

This episode covers a lot of ground and we'll help you think about management.

本集涵盖了很多内容，我们将帮助您思考管理。

platform teams, team culture and the PM and end relationship in a whole new way.

平台团队、团队文化以及 PM 和以全新的方式结束关系。

If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and helps the podcast tremendously.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是避免错过未来剧集的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

With that, I bring you Camille Fournier.

接下来，我为您带来卡米尔·福尼尔。

Camille, thank you so much for being here, welcome to the podcast.

卡米尔，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Camille Fournier: Thank you so much for having me.

卡米尔·福尼尔：非常感谢您邀请我。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's my pleasure.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这是我的荣幸。

I want to start by asking you a question that is on the minds of a lot of product managers is how to be less annoying as a product manager.

首先我想问大家一个很多产品经理都在想的问题：作为产品经理如何不那么烦人。

I know you worked with a lot of engineers over time.

我知道您长期以来与很多工程师一起工作。

I'm curious what it is that PMs do that annoy engineers most and how can PMs stop doing that?

我很好奇 PM 的哪些行为最让工程师烦恼，PM 如何才能停止这样做呢？

Camille Fournier: I would say there are a few things that PMs do that annoy engineers and to be clear, I am sure that engineers annoy PMs, just as much.

Camille Fournier：我想说的是，PM 所做的一些事情会惹恼工程师，而且要明确的是，我确信工程师也会惹恼 PM，同样如此。

So I've realized this is a two-way street.

所以我意识到这是一条双向路。

So I think there's some things that are really easy to fix and some things that are maybe a little bit harder.

所以我认为有些事情确实很容易解决，而有些事情可能有点难解决。

So the easy things to fix are hoarding credit.

因此，最容易解决的问题就是囤积信贷。

Sometimes I think PMs because they tend to be the front-facing person for initiatives, they're talking to customers, they're talking to the executive team, whatever.

有时我认为产品经理是因为他们往往是主动行动的最前面的人，他们与客户交谈，他们与执行团队交谈，等等。

Engineers sometimes think that they don't get the credit for their work because the PM takes all the glory and all the credit for the project that they really worked very hard on, right?

工程师有时会认为他们的工作没有得到认可，因为项目经理拿走了他们真正努力工作的项目的所有荣耀和功劳，对吧？

Camille Fournier: So making every effort to be credit sharing and inclusive of the engineering team and giving them the opportunity to speak about their contributions when it makes sense.

Camille Fournier：因此，尽一切努力实现信用共享并包容工程团队，并让他们有机会在有意义的时候谈论自己的贡献。

I think those are all things that PMs can do to avoid that kind of ...

我认为这些都是产品经理可以做的事情来避免这种情况......

What I consider a pretty easy annoyance, just like don't pour it all the credit.

我认为这很容易让人烦恼，就像不要把所有的功劳都归咎于它一样。

This is not just you, right?

这不仅仅是你，对吧？

There's a lot of work has to go into that.

这方面还有很多工作要做。

I think that sort of dovetails into the next thing that engineers really get annoyed about with PMs when they just don't understand the details and act like they don't matter and I think this is just a little bit of a cultural difference.

我认为这与工程师真正对产品经理感到恼火的下一件事相吻合，因为他们不了解细节并且表现得好像他们不重要，我认为这只是一点点文化差异。

Camille Fournier: I mean, even managers, just normal managers, people like me who are looking across really broad areas or you have to be kind of big picture focused, and you forget that engineering done successfully really is all about the details and you don't necessarily have to understand all of those details, but when you act like they don't matter and you don't care about them and it's just like, I don't care, just like tell me when you can get this done or why is it going to take so long?

卡米尔·福尼尔：我的意思是，即使是经理，只是普通的经理，像我这样的人，他们的视野非常广阔，或者你必须关注大局，你忘记了成功完成的工程实际上都是关于细节的，你不一定必须了解所有这些细节，但当你表现得好像它们不重要，你不关心它们，就像，我不在乎，就像告诉我什么时候可以完成这件事，或者为什么要花这么长时间？

My god, this just seems like such a little thing.

天哪，这看起来只是一件小事。

It just shows a real lack of empathy for the work that engineers are doing and I think it really can be very off-putting.

这只是表明他们对工程师正在做的工作缺乏同理心，我认为这确实非常令人反感。

Camille Fournier: Even though I will totally agree that sometimes you're going to get details that don't really matter and you just have to be a little bit patient in those circumstances.

卡米尔·福尼尔：尽管我完全同意，有时你会得到并不重要的细节，在这种情况下你只需要有点耐心。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today's episode is brought to you by DX.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天的节目是 DX 为您带来的。

If you're an engineering leader or on a platform team, at some point your CEO will inevitably ask you for productivity metrics, but measuring engineering organizations is hard and we can all agree that simple metrics like the number of PRs or commits doesn't tell the full story.

如果您是工程领导者或平台团队成员，在某些时候，您的首席执行官将不可避免地要求您提供生产力指标，但衡量工程组织很困难，我们都同意，像 PR 或提交数量这样的简单指标并不能说明全部情况。

That's where DX comes in.

这就是 DX 发挥作用的地方。

DX is an engineering intelligence solution designed by leading researchers, including those behind the DORA and SPACE frameworks.

DX 是由领先研究人员设计的工程智能解决方案，其中包括 DORA 和 SPACE 框架背后的研究人员。

It combines quantitative data from developer tools with qualitative feedback from developers to give you a complete view of engineering productivity and the factors affecting it.

它将开发人员工具的定量数据与开发人员的定性反馈相结合，让您全面了解工程生产力及其影响因素。

Lenny Rachitsky: Learn why some of the world's most iconic companies like Etsy, Dropbox, Twilio, Vercel and Webflow rely on DX.

Lenny Rachitsky：了解为什么 Etsy、Dropbox、Twilio、Vercel 和 Webflow 等一些世界上最具标志性的公司依赖 DX。

Visit DX's website at getdx.com/lenny.

请访问 DX 的网站 getdx.com/lenny。

Let me tell you about CommandBar.

让我告诉你有关 CommandBar 的信息。

If you're like me and most users I've built product for, you probably find those little in-product pop-ups really annoying.

如果您像我和我为其构建产品的大多数用户一样，您可能会发现那些产品内的小弹出窗口真的很烦人。

Want to take a tour?

想参观一下吗？

Check out this new feature, and these pop-ups are becoming less and less effective since most users don't read what they say.

看看这个新功能，这些弹出窗口的效果越来越差，因为大多数用户不阅读他们所说的内容。

They just want to close them as soon as possible, but every product builder knows that users need help to learn the ins and outs of your product.

他们只是想尽快关闭它们，但每个产品构建者都知道用户需要帮助来了解产品的细节。

We use so many products every day and we can't possibly know the ins and outs of everyone.

我们每天都会使用很多产品，我们不可能了解每个产品的来龙去脉。

Lenny Rachitsky: CommandBar is an AI-powered toolkit for product, growth, marketing and customer teams to help users get the most out of your product, without annoying them.

Lenny Rachitsky：CommandBar 是一个人工智能驱动的工具包，适用于产品、增长、营销和客户团队，可帮助用户充分利用您的产品，而不会让他们烦恼。

They use AI to get closer to user intent, so they have search and chat products that let users describe what they're trying to do in their own words and then see personalized results like customer walkthroughs or actions, and they do pop-ups too, but their nudges are based on in-product behaviors like confusion or intent classification, which makes them much less annoying and much more impactful.

他们使用人工智能来更接近用户意图，因此他们拥有搜索和聊天产品，让用户用自己的话描述他们想要做什么，然后看到个性化结果，例如客户演练或操作，他们也会弹出窗口，但他们的推动是基于产品内行为，例如混淆或意图分类，这使得它们不那么烦人，而且更有影响力。

This works for web apps, mobile apps and websites.

这适用于网络应用程序、移动应用程序和网站。

Lenny Rachitsky: And they work with industry-leading companies like Gusto, Freshworks, HashiCorp and LaunchDarkly.

Lenny Rachitsky：他们与 Gusto、Freshworks、HashiCorp 和 LaunchDarkly 等行业领先的公司合作。

Over 15 million end-users have interacted with CommandBar.

超过 1500 万最终用户与 CommandBar 进行过交互。

To try out CommandBar, you can sign up at commandbar.com/lenny and you can unlock an extra 1000 AI responses per month for any plan.

要试用 CommandBar，您可以在 commandbar.com/lenny 上注册，并且对于任何计划，您每月都可以解锁额外的 1000 个 AI 响应。

That's commandbar.com/lenny.

那是commandbar.com/lenny。

By the way, CommandBar just changed their name to Command AI.

顺便说一下，CommandBar 刚刚更名为 Command AI。

Camille Fournier: The third is playing telephone.

Camille Fournier：第三个是打电话。

Anybody in a manager role can fall victim to this, but I think PMs especially can be very annoying.

任何担任经理角色的人都可能成为这种情况的受害者，但我认为产品经理尤其会非常烦人。

So if you are being asked questions that you cannot answer because you just don't know or because that's something that involves a level of technical detail that only the engineers have that you just don't have, and you put yourself in this in-between position where people ask you questions, you turn around, you ask the engineers questions, you take whatever they say, especially when you don't really understand it, which happens sometimes, right?

因此，如果你被问到你无法回答的问题，因为你根本不知道，或者因为这涉及到只有工程师才有的技术细节，而你却没有，你就把自己置于人们问你问题的中间位置，你转身，你问工程师问题，你接受他们所说的一切，特别是当你不太明白的时候，这种情况有时会发生，对吗？

Go back to the original asker and sort of get in this middle-person scenario.

回到最初的提问者并进入这个中间人场景。

Camille Fournier: I think that is very annoying and frankly, it's a waste of time for everyone.

Camille Fournier：我认为这非常烦人，坦率地说，这对每个人来说都是浪费时间。

This is something that managers of all stripes do, but PMs definitely do it and that drives engineers, particularly senior engineers on projects, it's crazy.

这是各种类型的经理都会做的事情，但产品经理肯定会这样做，这会驱使工程师，特别是项目中的高级工程师，这是疯狂的。

And then, the last one that I wanted to put on this list is just when sometimes it feels like product managers want to hoard all the ideas for themselves, right?

然后，我想列入此列表的最后一个是有时感觉产品经理想要为自己囤积所有想法，对吗？

They want to be the ones that come up with every single sort of product idea and every single detail.

他们希望成为提出每一种产品创意和每一个细节的人。

What I see happen in those cases is that I see engineers start to over-engineer things, because engineers are like, well, I need to take control of something.

在这些情况下，我看到工程师开始过度设计事物，因为工程师就像，嗯，我需要控制某些东西。

Camille Fournier: I want to have some creative outlet, so I'm going to use my engineering skills as my creative outlet and I'm going to spend a lot of time obsessing over the right framework or the right this, that or the other.

Camille Fournier：我想要一些创意的出口，所以我将利用我的工程技能作为我的创意出口，并且我将花费大量时间沉迷于正确的框架或正确的这个、那个或其他。

That may actually not matter that much with products delivery, but when you take the people that are part of the project team out of the creative loop entirely, they're going to find that creative outlet somewhere else and it's actually kind of bad for the product.

实际上，这对于产品交付来说可能并不重要，但是当你将项目团队中的人员完全排除在创意循环之外时，他们会在其他地方找到创意出口，这实际上对产品不利。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's really interesting, the last one.

Lenny Rachitsky：最后一个真的很有趣。

So you're saying if you keep engineers from having a voice in what you're building and prioritizing, that's what encourages engineers to rethink, let's just rebuild this thing, let's use a new framework, let's rewrite this system.

所以你是说，如果你不让工程师对你正在构建的东西和优先级有发言权，那就会鼓励工程师重新思考，让我们重建这个东西，让我们使用一个新的框架，让我们重写这个系统。

Camille Fournier: Yeah, I mean that's my ...

卡米尔·福尼尔：是的，我的意思是那是我的......

that happens without you doing that, sometimes.

有时，即使您不这样做，也会发生这种情况。

Camille Fournier: I do think ...

卡米尔·福尼尔：我确实认为......

I think when I see it worst and I can basically always predict what I'm going to see, a lot of that kind of engineers building stuff, finding creative outlets and kind of building stuff, maybe they shouldn't be.

我认为，当我看到最糟糕的情况时，我基本上总是可以预测我将看到什么，很多这样的工程师在建造东西，寻找创意渠道和建造东西，也许他们不应该这样做。

I'm going to find that in places where they are so quashed their creativity for the actual business or product that they're building and their voice in that is so ignored that they don't have any outlets in that space and so, they are going to use the space that they have an outlet in, the place where they have some control and that's usually the technology choices and the details there.

我会发现，在他们正在构建的实际业务或产品中，他们的创造力被压制，他们的声音被忽视，以至于他们在该空间中没有任何出口，因此，他们将使用他们有出口的空间，他们有一定控制权的地方，通常是那里的技术选择和细节。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's fascinating.

Lenny Rachitsky：这很有趣。

I want to actually dig further into that around rewrites.

我想进一步深入研究重写。

You have a really interesting take on that, but before we get there, let me spend a little time on some of these.

你对此有一个非常有趣的看法，但在我们讨论之前，让我花一点时间讨论其中的一些内容。

These are awesome.

这些太棒了。

So on this theme of not involving engineers in ideation and coming up with what you're actually building, what have you seen just very tactically, is there anything you've seen that PM do super well?

因此，关于不让工程师参与构思并提出您实际正在构建的内容这一主题，您在战术上看到了什么，您是否看到过 PM 做得非常好的事情？

Camille Fournier: I think the product managers that have done the best, they're not threatened by other people having ideas.

Camille Fournier：我认为做得最好的产品经理，他们不会受到其他有想法的人的威胁。

They're not threatened by the engineering team being full of smart people because they realize that yeah, some of the engineers may have good ideas, but they still don't really know how to do the product job.

他们不会受到充满聪明人的工程团队的威胁，因为他们意识到，是的，一些工程师可能有很好的想法，但他们仍然不知道如何完成产品工作。

Just my experience is there are plenty of engineers who actually think they can be product managers and they don't really understand all of the elements of the product job that they would need to be successful.

我的经验是，有很多工程师实际上认为自己可以成为产品经理，但他们并不真正了解成功所需的产品工作的所有要素。

And when product managers take the time to build those relationships, well, make sure that people do feel like they can both share their ideas, but also that they start to appreciate what the job of this product person actually is.

当产品经理花时间建立这些关系时，确保人们确实觉得他们可以分享他们的想法，而且他们开始欣赏这个产品人员的实际工作是什么。

Camille Fournier: And what they're really bringing to the table in terms of really how do we measure this input?

Camille Fournier：他们真正带来了什么，我们如何衡量这些输入？

How do we really understand the customers, how do we really think through the details of what's going to make this successful from a business or a customer perspective?

我们如何真正了解客户，我们如何从企业或客户的角度真正思考如何才能成功的细节？

I do think that that creates just a much better interaction pattern and then, engineers can feel good about sharing ideas and understanding that many of them won't go anywhere, but there's somebody that's actually going to listen and take the time to care about them.

我确实认为这创造了一种更好的交互模式，然后工程师可以很好地分享想法并理解其中许多想法不会有任何结果，但有人实际上会倾听并花时间关心他们。

Lenny Rachitsky: Coming back to some of the things that you said annoy engineers of PMs, this idea of playing the middle person, sounds like the solution clearly is there.

Lenny Rachitsky：回到你所说的一些惹恼产品经理工程师的事情，这种扮演中间人的想法，听起来显然是解决方案。

Just connect the engineer to the other engineer or your engineer to the PM that's trying to figure this out, right?

只需将工程师与其他工程师或您的工程师与试图解决此问题的产品经理联系起来，对吧？

Camille Fournier: That one is not always easy because again, you have this tension of a lot of the job, of any management role is being in meetings and filtering stuff so that people who are in focus ...

卡米尔·福尼尔：这并不总是容易的，因为很多工作、任何管理角色都面临着这种紧张，那就是参加会议和过滤内容，以便让那些处于焦点的人......

individual contributor mode can focus and get things done and not spend half of their weekend in meetings.

个人贡献者模式可以集中精力完成工作，而不必将周末的一半时间花在会议上。

You've just got to be very careful about knowing when you're crossing that line and when you're crossing it too often.

你必须非常小心地知道什么时候会越过这条线，什么时候会经常越过它。

And if you're having to often say, "Let me get back to you, let me get back to you, I don't know, let me get back to you." Maybe the person you're talking to is asking the wrong level of questions of you.

如果你不得不经常说：“让我回复你，让我回复你，我不知道，让我回复你。”也许与你交谈的人向你提出了错误级别的问题。

Camille Fournier: Maybe you need to connect them to the engineers directly, but just being aware that that shouldn't be a default behavior.

Camille Fournier：也许您需要将他们直接与工程师联系，但要注意这不应该是默认行为。

That will happen occasionally, but it shouldn't be a thing that happens a lot because if it's happening a lot, then you're likely missing something, you're likely losing something in that telephone game translation and that's going to cause problems over time.

这种情况偶尔会发生，但不应该经常发生，因为如果经常发生，那么你可能会错过一些东西，你可能会在电话游​​戏翻译中丢失一些东西，随着时间的推移，这会导致问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

So basically, if you're just finding your middle person too much, then it may be time to connect people directly.

所以基本上，如果您发现中间人太多，那么可能是时候直接联系人们了。

And I know the reason PMs often are afraid of this is the engineer may agree to something that they think is a bad idea for their team or may not understand all the ramifications on the product or just obviously, just spend their time in meetings and not be building anything.

我知道产品经理经常担心这一点的原因是工程师可能会同意他们认为对团队来说是个坏主意的事情，或者可能不理解产品的所有影响，或者很明显，只是把时间花在会议上而不是构建任何东西。

Camille Fournier: Yeah, yeah, and sometimes you mean you do it in a group meeting.

卡米尔·福尼尔：是的，是的，有时你的意思是你在小组会议上这样做。

I feel like Slack and other chat type things actually make it a lot easier to see, have the right people in a group in a thing, but again, that's distracting.

我觉得 Slack 和其他聊天类型的东西实际上让它更容易看到，让合适的人在一个小组中参与某件事，但同样，这会分散注意力。

So there's not an easy solution to that one, just I think it's important to be aware of it.

因此，这个问题没有一个简单的解决方案，只是我认为意识到这一点很重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, that's a really good point.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，这是一个非常好的观点。

And then, in terms of hoarding credit, is there any tactical thing you've seen PMs do really well here is it, just every time they're announcing the product, "Hey, these engineers were involved or-"

然后，就囤积信用而言，你见过产品经理在战术方面做得非常好的吗？就是每次他们宣布产品时，“嘿，这些工程师都参与其中，或者——”

Camille Fournier: It's more than just saying thank you to all these people, but it's actually sometimes stepping back and letting other people speak, especially if it's something that's a really, really big technical lift.

Camille Fournier：这不仅仅是向所有这些人表示感谢，而且实际上有时会退后一步，让其他人发言，特别是如果这是一个非常非常大的技术提升。

I don't think there's a super easy fix to that.

我认为没有超级简单的解决办法。

I think it is just really being mindful that that can be very much a sore point for engineers when they just feel like, "This is my work, I'm not getting any credit for it, and this person is hogging all the glory."

我认为，真正要注意的是，当工程师感觉“这是我的工作，我没有因此获得任何荣誉，而这个人霸占了所有的荣耀”时，这对他们来说可能是一个很大的痛处。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

Yeah, I find the best PMs are the ones that talk the least and encourage other people to do the presenting and announcing.

是的，我发现最好的产品经理是那些说话最少并鼓励其他人进行演示和宣布的人。

And so, I think that's a really good reminder is let your engineers do that.

所以，我认为这是一个非常好的提醒，让你的工程师这样做。

Okay, amazing.

好吧，太棒了。

So we talked a little bit about this idea of rewriting and how engineers sometimes just want to rewrite the system and I think a lot of PMs do too.

因此，我们讨论了重写的想法，以及工程师有时只想重写系统，我认为很多产品经理也这样做。

A lot of times you're building your features on a thing that someone that doesn't even work at the company and were built five, 10 years ago, and there's always this sense of, "Okay, maybe we should just rewrite this thing everything will move so much faster."

很多时候，你在一个甚至不在公司工作并且是在五年、十年前构建的东西上构建你的功能，并且总是有这样的感觉，“好吧，也许我们应该重写这个东西，一切都会进展得更快。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Do you have a really interesting take that I think a lot of PMs will love to hear, which is that rewrites are often a big trap and often don't end up being what you think they might be?

Lenny Rachitsky：您是否有一个非常有趣的观点，我认为很多产品经理都会喜欢听到，即重写通常是一个大陷阱，而且往往最终不会成为您认为的那样？

Can you just talk about your experience and perspective on this?

您能谈谈您对此的经历和看法吗？

Camille Fournier: Yeah, so I mean I have personally overseen a number of, if not quite rewrites, re-architectures and major system evolutions.

Camille Fournier：是的，所以我的意思是我亲自监督了一些（如果不是完全重写）、重新架构和主要系统的演变。

So I absolutely do think they are sometimes a thing that needs to happen, but I also, have seen so many instances of cases where the engineers have convinced themselves that the only solution to the woes that they're experiencing with the system, it's hard to support, it's hard to change.

所以我绝对认为它们有时是一件需要发生的事情，但我也见过很多这样的例子，工程师们说服自己，解决他们在系统中遇到的问题的唯一解决方案，很难支持，也很难改变。

Nobody wants to work on it, because it's this old crappy technology, is that they just have to go over to the side, build the new thing that will replace this old system and that is going to sort of free them from their misery.

没有人愿意参与其中，因为这是一种陈旧的蹩脚技术，他们只需要走到一边，构建新的东西来取代这个旧系统，这将使他们摆脱痛苦。

Camille Fournier: And I think projects where you acknowledge that you do need to do an uplift, but you make a very thoughtful staged plan as to how you're going to do that, and you really think through, okay, we don't need to touch all of this stuff, but we're going to take the recommendation system, it really needs to be uplifted and that's a well-contained, you know, API and so we can start to fix that without having to change the whole whatever web framework, right?

Camille Fournier：我认为在项目中，你承认你确实需要进行提升，但你对如何做到这一点制定了一个非常深思熟虑的分阶段计划，并且你真的想通了，好吧，我们不需要触及所有这些东西，但我们将采用推荐系统，它确实需要提升，这是一个包含良好的 API，你知道，所以我们可以开始解决这个问题，而不必改变整个网络框架，对吗？

So I do think there are ways to do these evolutions, but people really underestimate.

所以我确实认为有一些方法可以实现这些进化，但人们确实低估了。

They underestimate the time to migrate stuff from the old system to the new system, is a huge, huge problem.

他们低估了将东西从旧系统迁移到新系统的时间，这是一个巨大的问题。

Camille Fournier: Particularly when you're talking about systems where you have sort of external people using the system in some way, whether it's web UIs or APIs.

Camille Fournier：特别是当您谈论有外部人员以某种方式使用该系统的系统时，无论是 Web UI 还是 API。

You think, "Oh, we kind of know what's going on, so it's not going to be that big a deal." Engineers notoriously, notoriously, notoriously, massively underestimate the migration time for old system to new system and that causes a lot of problems.

你会想，“哦，我们知道发生了什么，所以这没什么大不了的。”众所周知，工程师们严重低估了旧系统到新系统的迁移时间，这导致了很多问题。

By the way, you still have to support the old system while you're working on the new system.

顺便说一下，在开发新系统的同时，你仍然需要支持旧系统。

So I doubt many of the PMs in the audience are ever happy when they hear, we need to go away for six months, a year, two years to build this new thing and we just can't really add any features to the system in the interim.

因此，我怀疑观众中的许多产品经理在听到我们需要离开六个月、一年、两年来构建这个新事物时是否会感到高兴，而在此期间我们无法真正向系统添加任何功能。

Camille Fournier: That's infuriating, I'm sure, and frankly that's a problem and I don't know that that should be an acceptable answer in many cases.

卡米尔·福尼尔：我确信这令人愤怒，坦率地说这是一个问题，我不知道在很多情况下这应该是一个可以接受的答案。

There may occasionally again be a case where that is what has to happen, but I think most of the time you can't really afford to just say we're going to go away and we're not going to touch the system for a long time and we're going to build something new over here.

偶尔可能会再次出现这种情况，但我认为大多数时候你真的不能只是说我们要离开，我们不会在很长一段时间内接触这个系统，我们要在这里建立一些新的东西。

So many things about why that doesn't make any sense.

关于为什么这没有任何意义的事情有很多。

So this is a little bit of field of the blog post that you're referring to.

这是您所指的博客文章的一小部分领域。

So, if you've got a system that doesn't really need feature enhancement or development because it's just sort of fine and the users are using it.

因此，如果您有一个并不真正需要功能增强或开发的系统，因为它还不错并且用户正在使用它。

Camille Fournier: And it's just annoying to the engineers, why in the world would you invest so much money in writing a new version of it?

Camille Fournier：这对工程师来说很烦人，为什么你要投入这么多钱来编写它的新版本？

There's a little bit of a cognitive dissonance that sometimes happens if you need to do new stuff and the old system literally is not ...

如果你需要做新的事情，而旧系统实际上并不......，有时会发生一点认知失调......

it's not possible to do the new stuff that you need to do, you need to figure out a path to get to a sustainable system or you can continue to add and evolve.

不可能做你需要做的新事情，你需要找到一条通往可持续系统的道路，或者你可以继续添加和发展。

You should be investing and so there does need to be an investment, but you have to ask yourself, if I could go away and not touch this and not do anything to it for a long period of time without it really harming my business, is it worthwhile to change it at all?

你应该投资，所以确实需要投资，但你必须问自己，如果我可以离开，不碰这个，并且在很长一段时间内不做任何事情，而不会真正损害我的业务，​​那么是否值得改变它？

Camille Fournier: Does it matter, and there's some questions there.

Camille Fournier：这重要吗？还有一些问题。

I also think that when people try to do rewrites, particularly again if it's something that you're really trying to just move to a new language for example or sort of modernize in a certain way, a lot of times people really underestimate what the old system does and how well they know what the old system does.

我还认为，当人们尝试重写时，特别是如果你真的想转向一种新语言或以某种方式进行现代化，很多时候人们真的低估了旧系统的功能以及他们对旧系统功能的了解程度。

There's so much logic buried in legacy systems, it tends to be undocumented, it tends to be weird.

遗留系统中隐藏着如此多的逻辑，它们往往没有文档记录，而且往往很奇怪。

You haven't thought through all the business rules, you haven't thought through the data formatting and I think again, it's much, much harder to replicate all the important things from the old system to the new system than people expect.

你还没有考虑到所有的业务规则，你还没有考虑到数据格式，我再次想到，将所有重要的事情从旧系统复制到新系统比人们预期的要困难得多。

Camille Fournier: So there's more than that, but I do think sometimes you need to evolve systems and my advice would be when you're struggling making an evolution plan, take pieces potentially of the old system, uplift them, make them more scalable, make them easier to work with, clean up the tech debt, but trying to say we're going to just go away.

Camille Fournier：所以不止这些，但我确实认为有时你需要发展系统，我的建议是，当你正在努力制定发展计划时，从旧系统中挖掘出潜在的部分，提升它们，使它们更具可扩展性，使它们更易于使用，清理技术债务，但试图说我们要离开。

We're going to rewrite, we're going to build something brand new and it's going to solve all our problems, it just very rarely works.

我们将重写，我们将构建一些全新的东西，它将解决我们所有的问题，但它很少起作用。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think a lot of PMs will be like, "Yes, thank you so much for saying this, because I think that's also always a big struggle between the ENG team and the PM team." So just to summarize what I think a lot of people miss or what you're saying a lot of people miss when they're thinking about let's rewrite this thing, is the migration to the new system, migrating customers, users, data to the new thing is going to take a lot longer than you expect.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为很多 PM 都会说，“是的，非常感谢您这么说，因为我认为这始终是 ENG 团队和 PM 团队之间的一场激烈斗争。”因此，总结一下我认为很多人错过的东西，或者你所说的很多人在考虑重写这个东西时错过的东西，就是迁移到新系统，将客户、用户、数据迁移到新系统将花费比你预期更长的时间。

You underestimate knowing what it actually does and you're going to miss features and you can introduce new bugs.

你低估了它的实际作用，你会错过一些功能，并且可能会引入新的错误。

This actually is very similar to what I've seen with redesigning a whole product flow.

这实际上与我在重新设计整个产品流程时所看到的非常相似。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's always this sense of let's just rethink this onboarding flow from scratch or let's rebuild this part of the product and always it ends up being a negative experiment result.

Lenny Rachitsky：总有一种感觉，让我们从头开始重新思考这个入门流程，或者让我们重建产品的这一部分，但最终总是会得到负面的实验结果。

It always ends up being less good and then, you have to spend all this time clawing back to get to where you were and also, you forget the stuff that would ...

它最终总是变得不太好，然后，你必须花所有的时间回到原来的位置，而且，你忘记了那些会......

the features that you had and you're like, "Oh, shit, I forgot about that feature, I forgot about that feature." So it's interesting, there's a very similar situation in the product side.

你拥有的功能，然后你会说，“哦，糟糕，我忘了那个功能，我忘了那个功能。”所以很有趣，在产品方面也有非常相似的情况。

Okay, amazing.

好吧，太棒了。

I'm going to go to a slightly different topic, which is around engineering leadership.

我将讨论一个稍微不同的主题，即工程领导力。

Lenny Rachitsky: So I know you've written a lot about engineering leadership, you spent a lot of times with engineering leaders, so I have a few questions here.

Lenny Rachitsky：我知道你写了很多关于工程领导力的文章，你花了很多时间与工程领导者交流，所以我有几个问题。

One is that I know that one of the things that haunts engineering leaders most is finding the balance between staying technical and their technical expertise, and their leadership expertise and basically finding the right altitude of how high ...

一是我知道最困扰工程领导者的事情之一是在保持技术和他们的技术专长以及他们的领导专长之间找到平衡，并基本上找到多高的正确高度......

where to be in the org and also how in the details to be, and also staying technical enough to be relevant.

在组织中的位置以及细节如何，并且保持足够的技术性以保持相关性。

What have you learned in your own experience of finding that balance and how do you advise engineering leaders as they struggle with this?

您从自己寻找平衡的经验中学到了什么？当工程领导者为此苦苦挣扎时，您如何为他们提供建议？

Camille Fournier: Yeah, so one piece of advice I give everybody is don't stop being a hands-on technical until you feel like it's in your bones.

Camille Fournier：是的，所以我给大家的一个建议是，不要停止成为一名实践技术人员，直到你感觉它已经深入你的骨髓。

You feel like you've got mastery that you could ...

你感觉自己已经掌握了一切，可以...

if you know a second language fluently or if you played an instrument really, really seriously for a long time or maybe a sport really, really seriously for a long time, you'll be familiar with the ...

如果你流利地掌握第二语言，或者如果你非常非常认真地演奏一种乐器很长时间，或者也许是一种非常非常认真的运动很长时间，你就会熟悉......

I haven't done that in a long time, but if I was to pick it up, it would be rusty, but I would get there pretty quickly, right?

我已经很久没这样做了，但如果我把它捡起来，它会生锈，但我很快就能到达那里，对吧？

Maybe physically, I wouldn't be as strong as I was or whatever, but I would get there.

也许在身体上，我不会像以前那么强壮，但我会到达那里。

You can do that with writing code.

您可以通过编写代码来做到这一点。

Camille Fournier: You can do that with technical skills if you do it for long enough, I think you can develop sort of a baseline mastery, where you're not going to be as fast and a lot of the challenges of being technical is actually in all the tooling and all the tooling evolution, but you're not going to be necessarily as fast as people who have been doing it, but you won't be completely clueless and I think that all the things you learn getting to that really comfortable mastery of some part of hands-on tech will stay with you and will help you just maintain a level of confidence in your own technical know-how and maintain a level of empathy for what it means to be a good engineer.

Camille Fournier：如果你做的时间足够长，你可以用技术技能来做到这一点，我认为你可以发展某种基线掌握，在这种情况下，你不会那么快，技术的很多挑战实际上是在所有工具和所有工具的演变中，但你不一定会像一直在做这件事的人一样快，但你不会完全无能为力，我认为你学到的所有东西都可以真正轻松地掌握实践的某些部分技术将与您同在，帮助您对自己的技术知识保持一定程度的信心，并对成为一名优秀工程师的意义保持一定程度的同理心。

Camille Fournier: And I think just make you a lot less anxious about being hands-off, even though I think everybody who makes that transition for a year or two, especially if you're really have to be hands-off or you just don't have time to write code at all, you are going to be anxious for a while no matter what.

Camille Fournier：我认为，只要让你不那么担心不插手，即使我认为每个人经历一两年的过渡，特别是如果你真的必须不插手，或者你根本没有时间编写代码，无论如何你都会焦虑一段时间。

The things to then think about from that point is, being technical is also just about knowing what's going on and paying attention and being able to ask ...

从那时起要考虑的事情是，技术性也只是知道发生了什么，注意并能够提出问题......

what people care about with technical leaders in my experience is they want people who actually seem like they sort of understand what you're doing and can ask good questions and help guide you to better decisions without actually being the one who's like, "Oh no, you need to use this library instead of that library."

根据我的经验，人们关心的技术领导者是他们想要的人实际上似乎理解你在做什么，可以提出好的问题并帮助指导你做出更好的决策，而不是真正成为这样的人，“哦不，你需要使用这个库而不是那个库。”

Camille Fournier: It's actually sort of annoying when somebody that's very senior and hands-off tries to tell you, don't use this library, use that library because I don't know about you, but I don't really believe people who have been hands-off for that long when they try to tell me what to do and the thing that I'm kind of the expert in right now, but I do appreciate it when I'm given more guidance around, well, have you considered this?

Camille Fournier：当一个非常资深且不干涉的人试图告诉你，不要使用这个库，使用那个库，因为我不了解你，这实际上有点烦人，但我真的不相信那些长期不干涉的人，当他们试图告诉我该做什么以及我现在是专家的事情时，但当我得到更多指导时，我真的很感激，嗯，你考虑过这一点吗？

Tell me about how you're planning to handle that situation.

告诉我你打算如何处理这种情况。

What are the major technical challenges with implementing this and that can actually spend the time to listen and ask thoughtful questions on the back of that.

实现这一点的主要技术挑战是什么，实际上可以花时间倾听并提出深思熟虑的问题。

Camille Fournier: The last thing I would say is surround yourself with smart technical people, also as much as you can, and be willing to listen to them, talk about tech and ask them questions about things.

Camille Fournier：我要说的最后一件事就是让自己尽可能多地与聪明的技术人员在一起，并愿意倾听他们的意见，谈论技术并向他们询问有关事物的问题。

I feel like that's part of the reason that I am able to stay technically savvy and credible amongst people who work for me is not that I'm writing code because I'm not.

我觉得这就是我能够在为我工作的人中保持技术悟性和可信度的部分原因，而不是因为我不编写代码。

But I am listening to a lot of very smart people talk about technology a lot, down to the level of I'm trying to debug this database issue, what the heck is going on?

但我听到很多非常聪明的人谈论技术很多，一直到我试图调试这个数据库问题，到底发生了什么？

And just constantly being interested in those stories and learning from them and learning what really smart engineers are thinking about and worrying about.

并且不断地对这些故事感兴趣，并从中学习，了解真正聪明的工程师正在思考和担心什么。

Camille Fournier: The more you can build that network of people that are still hands-on and stay in touch with that, I do think that helps a lot.

卡米尔·福尼尔（Camille Fournier）：你越能建立起仍然亲自实践并保持联系的人际网络，我认为这确实有很大帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: So on my last point, how are you actually doing that?

Lenny Rachitsky：那么关于我的最后一点，你实际上是如何做到这一点的？

Is it watching ...

难道是在看……

going to conferences with friends, something else?

和朋友一起参加会议，还有别的事吗？

Camille Fournier: Yeah, yeah.

卡米尔·福尼尔：是的，是的。

I mean, I guess for me it started with going to conferences, meeting people.

我的意思是，我想对我来说，这一切都是从参加会议、与人见面开始的。

Now, I'm in a lot of different chat groups where people are just sort of regularly communicating, staying in touch with ...

现在，我加入了很多不同的聊天组，人们只是定期交流，保持联系......

staying in touch with former colleagues.

与以前的同事保持联系。

I will admit I'm kind of a social person and I have a big network, so this may be easier said than done, but I do think being in the right group chats ...

我承认我是一个喜欢社交的人，而且我有一个很大的网络，所以这可能说起来容易做起来难，但我确实认为处于正确的群聊中......

I also think, I'm sure reading various tech news and tech sort of commentary and discussion boards, I mean it's definitely a mixed bag of that stuff I think that like ...

我还认为，我确信阅读了各种科技新闻和科技类评论和讨论板，我的意思是，这绝对是我认为的东西的混合体......

but there are smart people.

但也有聪明人。

You find the smart people in there, you sort of follow what they're saying.

你会发现那里有聪明人，你会听从他们所说的。

I think that's another good way to keep that perspective.

我认为这是保持这种观点的另一个好方法。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is it a sign, I wonder if you're not interested in that anymore that maybe you should move into something else.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个迹象吗？我想知道你是否对此不再感兴趣，也许你应该转向其他领域。

I don't know.

我不知道。

If you're like, don't really pay attention to engineering technicalness.

如果你喜欢，就不要真正关注工程技术性。

Camille Fournier: It's hard for me to say because I'm such a nerd.

Camille Fournier：这对我来说很难说，因为我是个书呆子。

I really love tech.

我真的很喜欢科技。

I'm in this industry, because I'm just actually genuinely very interested in certain corners, not every corner of technology but certain corners of technology.

我从事这个行业，因为我实际上对某些领域非常感兴趣，不是技术的每个领域，而是技术的某些领域。

I want to know what the latest stuff that's happening in databases and infrastructure and I find it all very interesting.

我想知道数据库和基础设施中发生的最新事情，我发现这一切都非常有趣。

I find the problems interesting.

我觉得这些问题很有趣。

So I think that makes me very successful because I just have that natural curiosity and passion and interest in it.

所以我认为这让我非常成功，因为我对此有天生的好奇心、热情和兴趣。

But I don't know that that's a total prerequisite.

但我不知道这是一个完全的先决条件。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, but you've been talking about ...

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，但你一直在谈论......

it reminds me a little bit of this guy, LevelsIO on Twitter.

这让我有点想起 Twitter 上的 LevelsIO 这个人。

Have you heard of this guy?

你听说过这个人吗？

He was just on Lex Friedman.

他刚刚在莱克斯·弗里德曼节目中。

Have you listened to that yet?

你听过了吗？

Camille Fournier: I think maybe I saw a clip of it, but I haven't listened to it.

Camille Fournier：我想也许我看到了它的剪辑，但我还没有听过。

Lenny Rachitsky: So I think one of the most successful indie engineers where he just works on his own thing all by himself, never raises money, just launch his products that make money.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以我认为他是最成功的独立工程师之一，他只是自己做自己的事情，从不筹集资金，只是推出他能赚钱的产品。

And a funny thing about him is he works ...

他的一个有趣的事情是他工作......

all stuff is in PHP and jQuery.

所有的东西都是用 PHP 和 jQuery 编写的。

He's just like, this works.

他就像，这行得通。

I've always had this to do, learn Node.js, learn Python.

我一直有这件事要做，学习 Node.js，学习 Python。

And I'm like, I'm too busy to build ...

我想，我太忙了，没时间建造......

while I'm building to learn these new things and he's been incredibly successful.

当我正在努力学习这些新事物时，他取得了令人难以置信的成功。

So it touches on sometimes maybe you don't need to just keep rewriting to the newest frameworks.

因此，有时您可能不需要继续重写最新的框架。

Camille Fournier: Yeah, no, I mean look, I actually ...

卡米尔·福尼尔：是的，不，我的意思是看，我实际上......

I feel like I know a lot of smart engineers who are in that category.

我觉得我认识很多属于这一类的聪明工程师。

They're like, we built amazing things in PHP and relatively simple SQL and so much of tech is over-engineering things and I don't totally disagree.

他们就像，我们用 PHP 和相对简单的 SQL 构建了令人惊叹的东西，而且很多技术都过度设计了，我并不完全不同意。

I think the challenge is though, of course, what works as a one person show, doesn't always work in a scaled organization for better or for worse, we're in different like, you've got to match what makes one person really productive.

当然，我认为挑战在于，作为一个人的表演，在规模化的组织中并不总是有效，无论好坏，我们的情况不同，你必须匹配让一个人真正高效的因素。

Will it make 100 people, 1000 people, even 10 people really productive?

它能让 100 人、1000 人、甚至 10 人真正变得高效吗？

That's always a little hard to tell and that's why I do think you should be not ...

这总是有点难以说清楚，这就是为什么我认为你不应该......

I think it's always a good idea to be keeping up with what's happening and what's changing in whatever kind of side of tech you're in, but not obsessively chasing every fad.

我认为，无论你身处哪个技术领域，跟上正在发生的事情和正在发生的变化总是一个好主意，但不要过分追逐每一种时尚。

Camille Fournier: I think being aware of, but not necessarily chasing them, but particularly, if you're working in groups, teams, larger companies, even midsize companies, there is some amount of, you're balancing the tech that makes one person go fast with the tech that makes 10 or 100 people go fast and those are not always exactly the same thing.

Camille Fournier：我认为要意识到，但不一定要追赶它们，但特别是，如果你在团体、团队、大公司，甚至中型公司工作，你会在一定程度上平衡使一个人跑得快的技术与使 10 或 100 人跑得快的技术，而这些并不总是完全相同的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Just to kind follow this thread a little bit and to kind of nerd snipe you a little bit, is there a platform or language or framework these days that you're either very excited about that you think is helping people move faster and do better work or the opposite just like this is ...

Lenny Rachitsky：只是为了稍微关注一下这个主题，并给书呆子们一点狙击，现在有没有一个平台、语言或框架让你感到非常兴奋，你认为它可以帮助人们更快地行动，做得更好，或者相反，就像这样......

everyone is excited but this is not good.

每个人都很兴奋，但这并不好。

Camille Fournier: I will say this, one example I actually put in my own notes for this conversation was GraphQL.

Camille Fournier：我想说的是，我在这次对话的笔记中实际放入的一个例子是 GraphQL。

I would not tell a team to use or not use GraphQL at this point because it's a bit out of my expertise zone and my level of management.

此时我不会告诉团队使用或不使用 GraphQL，因为它有点超出我的专业知识范围和我的管理水平。

It's not really my job anyway, but it is one of the things that is both popular and thought relatively poorly of by most of the senior people that I know.

无论如何，这并不是我真正的工作，但它是我认识的大多数资深人士既受欢迎又相对不太重视的事情之一。

And so, I guess I would say that's one where I would say if you're seriously thinking about it and you're not Facebook, you may really want to make sure you know what problem you're trying to solve because the impression that I have from sort of listening to people talk about it is that GraphQL is kind of trying to promise front-end engineers that they don't really have to collaborate with backend engineers.

所以，我想我会说，如果你认真思考这个问题并且你不是 Facebook，你可能真的想确保你知道你想要解决什么问题，因为我从听人们谈论这个问题得到的印象是 GraphQL 有点试图向前端工程师承诺，他们实际上不必与后端工程师合作。

Camille Fournier: And they can just sort of build whatever and it'll all be fine, and it just doesn't ever seem to work out that well for anybody who actually does it in practice.

Camille Fournier：他们可以建造任何东西，一切都会好起来的，但对于任何真正在实践中这样做的人来说，它似乎都没有那么有效。

Again, obviously, it can work out that well because Facebook has made a great go of it.

显然，它之所以能够取得如此好的效果，是因为 Facebook 已经在这方面做出了巨大的贡献。

I'm sure there are other companies that are, but that's one where it's not that new but it remains one of these things where it seems like an interesting fad that maybe is burning a lot of people.

我确信还有其他公司是这样的，但那家公司并不是那么新鲜，但它仍然是其中之一，它似乎是一种有趣的时尚，可能正在燃烧很多人。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

I appreciate you sharing that.

我很感激你分享这一点。

I don't know if this is exactly an example of this, but on that podcast levels, I forget his actual name, Peter I think, shared that whenever there's a framework that has a VC funded startup behind it, that's not a good sign because their job now is to convince engineers to use it and then pay for it and that's not necessarily going to be the best product.

我不知道这是否就是一个例子，但在播客层面上，我忘记了他的真实姓名，彼得，我认为，每当有一个框架背后有风投资助的初创公司时，这都不是一个好兆头，因为他们现在的工作是说服工程师使用它，然后付费，而这不一定是最好的产品。

Camille Fournier: That's true.

卡米尔·福尼尔：确实如此。

Although I will say that some of the most time-wasting frameworks have also just come out of big companies, or the context of the big company that may have made that framework super useful within that context doesn't translate to startup or small company or even big company that doesn't have the rest of the context set, but I don't think ...

虽然我会说一些最浪费时间的框架也刚刚来自大公司，或者大公司的背景可能使该框架在该背景下超级有用，但这并不意味着初创公司或小公司甚至没有其余背景集的大公司，但我不认为......

He's not wrong.

他没有错。

I also just think big companies share the blame on that one.

我也认为大公司对此负有责任。

Lenny Rachitsky: I guess we should all just come back to PHP and jQuery and be simple.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想我们都应该回到 PHP 和 jQuery 并且保持简单。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so to close out this thread on engineering leaders, finding the right balance, just to summarize your advice here.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，结束这个关于工程领导者的话题，找到适当的平衡，只是在这里总结一下您的建议。

One is get to mastery before and is your advice here, get to this point before you move into engineering.

一是先精通，这是您在这里的建议，在进入工程领域之前先做到这一点。

Camille Fournier: Engineering management.

卡米尔·福尼尔：工程管理。

I will say part of this is also in particular, if you happen to be a woman or otherwise, underrepresented person in tech because people will tend to underestimate your technical abilities just unfortunately as a get-go.

我要说的是，如果你碰巧是一名女性或其他在科技领域代表性不足的人，那么这部分也是特别重要的，因为不幸的是，人们往往会低估你的技术能力。

I also think it's particularly important to kind of develop that internal confidence in your abilities before you make this sort of scary leap, which is scary for everyone of have a ...

我还认为，在进行这种可怕的飞跃之前，培养对自己能力的内在信心尤为重要，这对每个拥有……的人来说都是可怕的。

if you have that mastery before you make the leap, I wish more people would do this because honestly, I do think there are a lot of people who never really gained the mastery.

如果你在迈出这一步之前就掌握了这一点，我希望更多的人能够这样做，因为说实话，我确实认为有很多人从未真正掌握过这一点。

They go into management, they lose it and some of them are still perfectly good managers and look, there are good managers who were never technical to begin with.

他们进入管理层，他们失去了它，其中一些人仍然是非常优秀的管理者，而且看起来，有些优秀的管理者从一开始就从来没有技术性。

Camille Fournier: I don't want to say that that's impossible.

Camille Fournier：我不想说这是不可能的。

I just think that if you care about being technical, if you are technical now and you want to maintain that tech-savvy, don't just become a manager the first time somebody offers it to you.

我只是认为，如果你关心技术，如果你现在是技术人员并且你想保持对技术的精通，那么不要在第一次有人向你提供技术时就成为一名经理。

Make sure you've really spent your good time writing code.

确保您确实花了很多时间编写代码。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there a number of years heuristic you think about or some way to tell you that maybe you've hit that point?

Lenny Rachitsky：您是否考虑过很多年的启发，或者有什么方法可以告诉您也许您已经达到了这一点？

Camille Fournier: I think this has been since disproven, but it was that 10,000 hours idea of mastery at some point.

Camille Fournier：我认为这一点已经被证明是错误的，但在某个时刻，这就是 10,000 小时的掌握想法。

For me, it was like an undergraduate degree, a graduate degree, and four or five years of full-time work.

对我来说，这就像一个本科学位、一个研究生学位，以及四五年的全职工作。

So maybe I might be slow.

所以也许我可能会很慢。

I didn't start coding a lot in middle school like people might do now, but I felt like ...

我在中学时并没有像人们现在那样开始大量编码，但我觉得......

I took several years of hands-on work in a very intense undergraduate and graduate programs for me.

我在非常紧张的本科和研究生课程中进行了几年的实践工作。

So I do think it's probably somewhere in the 10-year range of really having spent a lot of your time over those years writing code and really understanding how to be a technical expert.

所以我确实认为这可能是在 10 年的范围内，这些年来你确实花了很多时间编写代码并真正了解如何成为一名技术专家。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

So essentially if you're thinking about moving into management as an engineer, you may want to wait until you've done it for 10 years in some form, which I think is a lot longer than a lot of people would've thought.

因此，本质上，如果你正在考虑以工程师的身份进入管理领域，你可能需要等到你以某种形式工作了 10 年，我认为这比很多人想象的要长得多。

And I imagine many people are not doing that.

我想很多人都没有这样做。

And then, in your experience not doing it as well, it could be-

然后，根据你的经验，没有这样做的话，可能是——

Camille Fournier: If you were programming a lot in high school and you got an undergraduate degree, so let's say you've got six years-

Camille Fournier：如果你在高中时经常编程并且获得了本科学位，那么假设你有六年的时间-

Camille Fournier: You may only need four or five years of work, 40 hour a week writing code experience.

Camille Fournier：你可能只需要四五年的工作、每周 40 小时的编写代码经验。

I'm sure it depends on the company, but I do think when you see people that are 23, they are just out very recently out of school, it's a different thing if you're a founder and that's a whole different life, but if you're at a big company and somebody is like you have great communication skills, why don't you start to become a manager?

我确信这取决于公司，但我确实认为，当你看到 23 岁的人时，他们刚刚从学校毕业，如果你是创始人，那是另一回事，那是完全不同的生活，但如果你在一家大公司，有人认为你有很好的沟通能力，你为什么不开始成为一名经理呢？

Often they're actually pushing you to become a project manager, which is actually also the worst sort of path to real leadership in my opinion.

通常他们实际上是在推动你成为一名项目经理，在我看来，这实际上也是通往真正领导力的最糟糕的道路。

If you don't feel like you're done ...

如果你不觉得你已经完成了......

Also, if you just don't feel like you're done, if you're still having fun writing code, don't rush becoming a manager, writing code is awesome.

另外，如果您只是觉得自己还没有完成，如果您仍然享受编写代码的乐趣，请不要急于成为一名经理，编写代码很棒。

Have fun, enjoy it.

玩得开心，享受它。

Lenny Rachitsky: I know exactly what you mean.

Lenny Rachitsky：我完全明白你的意思。

So I used to be an engineer, actually I was an engineer for 10 years.

所以我曾经是一名工程师，实际上我当了10年的工程师。

I definitely don't have mastery at this point.

我现在确实没有掌握。

I moved into product from that and I definitely so missed actually just sitting there and writing code and building stuff, that was very hard to give up.

我从此进入了产品领域，我非常怀念坐在那里编写代码和构建东西的感觉，这是很难放弃的。

I imagine you still missed that.

我想你还是错过了。

Camille Fournier: I think I might've forgotten about it at this point, but there is nothing as satisfying because you get the fast feedback loop.

Camille Fournier：我想我现在可能已经忘记了这一点，但没有什么比这更令人满意的了，因为你得到了快速的反馈循环。

It's just wonderful.

这真是太棒了。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Coda.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Coda 为您带来。

I use Coda every day to coordinate my podcasting and newsletter workflows from collecting questions for guests to storing all my research to managing my newsletter content calendar, Coda is my go-to app and has been for years.

我每天都使用 Coda 来协调我的播客和时事通讯工作流程，从收集客人问题到存储我所有的研究成果，再到管理我的时事通讯内容日历，Coda 是我的首选应用程序，多年来一直如此。

Coda combines the best of documents, spreadsheets and apps to help me get more done and Coda can help your team to stay aligned and ship faster by managing your planning cycle in just one location.

Coda 结合了最好的文档、电子表格和应用程序，帮助我完成更多工作，并且 Coda 可以通过在一个位置管理您的计划周期来帮助您的团队保持一致并更快地交付。

Set and measure OKRs with full visibility across teams and stakeholders, map dependencies, create progress visualizations, and identify risk areas.

以跨团队和利益相关者的完全可见性设置和衡量 OKR、映射依赖关系、创建进度可视化并识别风险领域。

Lenny Rachitsky: You can also access hundreds of pressure tested templates for everything from roadmap strategy, to final decision-making frameworks.

Lenny Rachitsky：您还可以访问数百个经过压力测试的模板，涵盖从路线图策略到最终决策框架的所有内容。

See for yourself why companies like DoorDash, Figma and Qualtrics run on Coda.

亲自了解为什么 DoorDash、Figma 和 Qualtrics 等公司在 Coda 上运行。

Take advantage of this special limited-time offer just for startups.

利用这一专为初创公司提供的特殊限时优惠。

Head over to coda.io/lenny and sign up to get six free months of the team plan.

前往 coda.io/lenny 并注册即可获得六个月免费的团队计划。

That's coda.io/lenny to sign up and get six months of the team plan, coda.io/lenny.

这是 coda.io/lenny 注册并获得六个月的团队计划，coda.io/lenny。

On the topic of moving into management, you wrote maybe the definitive book on engineering manager career path, and so when someone moves from IC to management, what do you find is the most surprising thing to them?

关于进入管理领域，您可能写了一本关于工程经理职业道路的权威书籍，所以当有人从 IC 转到管理领域时，您发现对他们来说最令人惊讶的事情是什么？

What do they most often not understand or are surprised by like, "Oh man, I did not see this as part of my job or my life."

他们最常不明白什么，或者感到惊讶的是，“天哪，我不认为这是我工作或生活的一部分。”

Camille Fournier: Yeah, I mean I think there's a few things.

卡米尔·福尼尔：是的，我的意思是我认为有一些事情。

I do think ...

我确实认为...

assuming that they're actually trying to do it well, I do think there are a lot of people who move into management and then just don't really understand the job at all and aren't even self-aware enough to know that they don't understand it, but for those who are trying to do it, trying to do it well.

假设他们实际上想把这件事做好，我确实认为有很多人进入管理层后根本不真正理解这份工作，甚至没有足够的自我意识来知道自己不理解它，但对于那些试图做这件事的人来说，试图把它做好。

I think a few things that tend to surprise them are the fact that you really don't own your time as a manager.

我认为有几件事往往会让他们感到惊讶，那就是作为经理，你真的不拥有自己的时间。

Your team and your management and the company owns your time.

你的团队、你的管理层和公司拥有你的时间。

More and more the more senior you become as a manager.

作为一名经理，你的级别越高。

I think individual contributors often think that if they become a manager, they will still have some of the freedom that they have as a senior individual contributor.

我认为个人贡献者通常认为，如果他们成为经理，他们仍然会拥有作为高级个人贡献者所拥有的一些自由。

Camille Fournier: But then they'll also be able to tell people what to do and they'll have all this authority.

卡米尔·福尼尔：但是他们也将能够告诉人们该做什么，并且他们将拥有所有这些权力。

And the reality is, management is much more ...

现实是，管理的意义远不止于此……

I'm not a huge fan of servant leadership exactly, but management really is a service job.

我并不是仆人式领导的忠实拥护者，但管理确实是一项服务性工作。

You are serving the team, you are serving the company.

你在为团队服务，你在为公司服务。

Your job is to help make things better and that usually doesn't mean that you're making all the decisions.

您的工作是帮助事情变得更好，但这通常并不意味着您要做出所有决定。

It usually doesn't mean that you snap your fingers and people jump.

这通常并不意味着你打个响指，人们就会跳起来。

Because if you try that, especially in tech, right?

因为如果你尝试这样做，尤其是在科技领域，对吗？

People are just going to revolt.

人们只会反抗。

They're not going to listen to you.

他们不会听你的。

It's just too hard to have ...

实在是太难拥有了……

that's not the culture that we live in.

那不是我们生活的文化。

Camille Fournier: And I don't think that's a good culture.

卡米尔·福尼尔：我认为这不是一种好的文化。

I don't think that command and control, I tell you what to do and you do it.

我不认为命令和控制，我告诉你做什么，你就去做。

It just doesn't create creativity, right?

它只是不能创造创造力，对吗？

It's the same thing as like PMs, trying to have all the ideas, right?

这就像产品经理一样，试图掌握所有的想法，对吗？

No, you've got all these brilliant people working for you on a team, your job as a manager is not to tell them what to do in every single case.

不，你有所有这些才华横溢的人在一个团队中为你工作，你作为经理的工作不是告诉他们在每种情况下应该做什么。

Occasionally, yes, a lot more.

偶尔，是的，还有更多。

If you're trying to convince them of what you think should happen.

如果你试图让他们相信你认为应该发生的事情。

In some ways, you're sort of nudging, you're encouraging, you're directing, you're setting guardrails for processes or behaviors or whatever, but it's not this glorious fearless leader.

在某些方面，你在推动、你在鼓励、你在指导、你在为流程或行为或其他什么设置护栏，但这不是这位光荣无畏的领导者。

Camille Fournier: I make all these decisions and everyone looks up to me and it's awesome kind of job.

Camille Fournier：所有这些决定都是我做的，每个人都尊敬我，这是一份很棒的工作。

It's much more grueling, much more ...

更辛苦，更……

you are really just sort of reacting to things in the moment.

你实际上只是对当下的事情做出反应。

And it can be very ...

而且它可以非常...

it's a hard job.

这是一项艰苦的工作。

I do think particularly management when done well, when you're really trying to do it in a thoughtful kind, but also, productive way is a very hard job.

我确实认为，特别是当管理做得好时，当你真正尝试以深思熟虑但富有成效的方式来做这件事时，这是一项非常艰巨的工作。

Lenny Rachitsky: I wonder if engineering is where most ...

Lenny Rachitsky：我想知道工程是否是最......

where the highest percentage of people that move into management move back to IC.

其中，进入管理层的人员中，返回 IC 的比例最高。

I've seen that a bunch and I wonder if engineers are the most common.

我见过很多这种情况，我想知道工程师是否是最常见的。

Lenny Rachitsky: After realizing what you just said is true, like, "Oh, what I done-"

Lenny Rachitsky：在意识到你刚才说的是真的之后，就像，“哦，我做了什么——”

Camille Fournier: So do you not think product managers also do this?

Camille Fournier：那么你不认为产品经理也会这样做吗？

Because I think product managers also actually suffer from exactly this kind of-

因为我认为产品经理实际上也面临着这种问题——

Lenny Rachitsky: But interestingly, I was an engineering manager earlier in my career.

Lenny Rachitsky：但有趣的是，我在职业生涯的早期是一名工程经理。

I really did not like it.

我真的不喜欢它。

I was very unhappy in that role.

我对这个角色非常不满意。

As a PM manager though, I was very happy, it was a lot easier.

不过，作为一名 PM 经理，我很高兴，这容易多了。

Camille Fournier: Yeah, because PMs are way easier to manage.

Camille Fournier：是的，因为 PM 更容易管理。

PMs are awesome to manage.

PM 非常好管理。

PMs want to ...

PM 想要...

they're just so helpful.

他们真是太乐于助人了。

They want to do this ...

他们想要这样做...

they're good communicators.

他们是很好的沟通者。

I love managing PMs.

我喜欢管理 PM。

I have to say, I have to say, just my experience, engineers are such a pain.

我不得不说，我不得不说，就我的经验而言，工程师就是这么痛苦。

They're all primadonnas.

他们都是primadonna。

I am an engineer, but PMs are more fun to manage my experience.

我是一名工程师，但 PM 管理我的经验更有趣。

So actually, you have a point.

所以实际上，你说得有道理。

You have a point.

你说得有道理。

Lenny Rachitsky: But I wonder.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：但我想知道。

Yeah, because I haven't seen a lot of PM managers move back to IC product management.

是的，因为我还没有看到很多 PM 经理重新转向 IC 产品管理。

I find that once you can build product through teams and not sit there all day in Excel and check in on deadlines and things, it's hard to give that part up.

我发现，一旦你可以通过团队构建产品，而不是整天坐在 Excel 中检查截止日期和事情，就很难放弃这部分。

You kind of enjoy being higher up in that chain.

你有点喜欢在这个链条中处于更高的位置。

Yeah.

是的。

Kind of along these lines, something that you have a really interesting perspective on is one-on-ones.

沿着这些思路，你对一对一的看法非常有趣。

Most people are like have one-on-ones with everyone, have them regularly, they're really important.

大多数人都喜欢与每个人进行一对一的交流，定期进行，这非常重要。

You actually have this contrarian take that maybe you should have less one-on-ones, especially as an engineering manager, you talk about that.

实际上，您有这种逆向思维，也许您应该减少一对一的交流，尤其是作为一名工程经理，您谈到了这一点。

Camille Fournier: Yeah, so to be clear, you should have one-on-ones with your direct reports and your manager and you should hold those sacred ...

卡米尔·福尼尔：是的，所以要明确的是，你应该与你的直接下属和你的经理进行一对一的交谈，并且你应该保持这些神圣的......

I tend to do my weekly or maybe every other week.

我倾向于每周或每隔一周进行一次。

So this is not about that set of one-on-ones.

所以这不是那组一对一的。

So the one-on-ones of the people that you are directly managing and with your own manager.

因此，与您直接管理的人员以及您自己的经理进行一对一的交流。

But I think there is this ...

但我觉得有这个...

I don't know if it's the remote work, sort of explosion that's happened or it's big companies or what, but what I've seen and I've heard a lot of friends at many companies complain about is this idea that everybody is doing one-on-ones with everyone else.

我不知道这是远程工作、发生的爆炸式增长还是大公司的原因，但我所看到的、也听到很多公司的很多朋友抱怨的是，每个人都在与其他人进行一对一的交流。

So the manager is doing one-on-ones with their team.

所以经理正在与他们的团队进行一对一的交流。

They're also doing one-on-ones with all of their peers.

他们还与所有同行进行一对一的交流。

Camille Fournier: They're doing one-on-ones with all of their stakeholders.

Camille Fournier：他们正在与所有利益相关者进行一对一的交流。

They're doing one-on-ones with product and design.

他们正在与产品和设计进行一对一的交流。

And I think that it's just not a scalable approach, right?

我认为这不是一种可扩展的方法，对吧？

Linearly scale with the number of relationships you have.

与您拥有的关系数量成线性比例。

And so, as your company grows, as the number of things your team supports grow, as the team grows, you just can't scale that way.

因此，随着您的公司的发展，随着您的团队支持的事物数量的增加，随着团队的发展，您将无法以这种方式扩展。

You cannot expect to maintain a one-on-one approach to kind of organizational relationship building and awareness passed a fairly small team/company.

您不能指望在一个相当小的团队/公司中维持一对一的组织关系建立和意识意识。

I also think that people think that one-on-ones will solve all of their problems.

我还认为人们认为一对一会解决他们所有的问题。

And I think the reality is you have this one-on-ones with people that don't really want to have a one-on-one with you.

我认为现实情况是，你与那些并不真正想与你进行一对一的人进行一对一的交流。

Camille Fournier: If they're not in the mind to invest in your relationship, if they don't really care about what you're doing, they actually may not like it that you're asking them for a one-on-one, let me show up like, because it's like, okay, well I should do this to be a good corporate citizen or whatever.

卡米尔·福尼尔：如果他们不想投资你们的关系，如果他们并不真正关心你在做什么，他们实际上可能不喜欢你要求他们进行一对一的谈话，让我出现，因为这就像是，好吧，我应该这样做是为了成为一个好的企业公民或其他什么。

But they're just like, why are we doing this?

但他们只是想，我们为什么要这样做？

What is the point of this?

这有什么意义呢？

I also think that one-on-ones, particularly when you use them first of stakeholder management.

我还认为一对一的，特别是当你首先使用它们进行利益相关者管理时。

So when you're meeting with people that's not your team, but other stakeholders that you may need to deal with, if you have a lot of stakeholders ...

因此，当您会见的人不是您的团队，而是您可能需要处理的其他利益相关者，如果您有很多利益相关者......

so I've been in a lot of positions where I have a lot of internal stakeholders because I build internal platforms is a big part of what my job has been in the last many years.

所以我担任过很多职位，有很多内部利益相关者，因为我建立内部平台是我过去几年工作的重要组成部分。

Camille Fournier: Having all these meetings as one-on-ones with those stakeholders can actually be kind of a weakness because when your stakeholders just tell you in a one-on-one that they're happy or unhappy with things, your unhappy stakeholders aren't hearing that.

Camille Fournier：与这些利益相关者进行一对一的会议实际上可能是一种弱点，因为当你的利益相关者只是一对一地告诉你他们对事情感到高兴或不满意时，你不满意的利益相关者不会听到。

So you may have one really unhappy stakeholder and five really happy ones and all you're saying to your unhappy one is, "Well, everybody else is happy and they're not seeing it for themselves." And they're just having to say, "Trust me, because I've had these other one-on-ones with all these people and they're saying it's fine." And it just kind of sounds whiny.

因此，您可能有一个非常不高兴的利益相关者和五个非常高兴的利益相关者，而您对不高兴的利益相关者所说的只是：“嗯，其他人都很高兴，但他们自己并没有看到这一点。”他们只需说：“相信我，因为我已经与所有这些人进行了其他一对一的交谈，他们都说这很好。”这听起来有点发牢骚。

Camille Fournier: And so, when you're dealing with a lot of stakeholders and trying to just rely on one-on-one management of that is actually not very productive in a lot of ways.

Camille Fournier：所以，当你与很多利益相关者打交道并试图仅仅依靠一对一的管理时，实际上在很多方面都不是很有成效。

So in general, I guess I just think people should respect their own time more.

所以总的来说，我想我只是认为人们应该更加尊重自己的时间。

As much as I just said management, you're kind of at everyone's mercy and that is true, but also respect your time.

正如我刚才所说的管理，你会受到每个人的摆布，这是事实，但也要尊重你的时间。

Don't just load yourself up with meetings because you're a manager and that's your job.

不要因为你是经理而让自己忙于会议，而那是你的工作。

Do you really have something to talk to a person about?

你真的有话要跟一个人说吗？

Do you really need to ...

你真的需要...

when you have a one-on-one meeting with someone, you are asking for their time.

当你与某人进行一对一的会面时，你是在请求他们花时间。

You shouldn't just be doing that kind of haphazardly for fun.

你不应该只是为了好玩而随意做这种事。

Camille Fournier: This is a little bit of my personality.

Camille Fournier：这是我性格的一部分。

I'm not a great company networker.

我不是一个出色的公司网络人员。

Some people are really good at just like, let's go to get coffee, let's go to lunch and let's hang out and build a relationship.

有些人真的很擅长，我们去喝咖啡，去吃午饭，一起出去玩，建立关系。

And honestly, those people are really successful in many ways that I am not.

老实说，这些人在很多方面都非常成功，而我则不然。

I do sort of envy that skill.

我确实有点羡慕这个技能。

I'm really good if I work with you.

如果我和你一起工作的话我真的很好。

If I work with you on something, generally speaking, people really come to respect me because I'm very engaged and I'm a really good collaborator in various ways, but I'm really bad at just getting to know you random one-on-one, where we don't have a purpose to the meeting.

一般来说，如果我和你一起做某件事，人们真的会尊重我，因为我非常投入，而且在各个方面我都是一个非常好的合作者，但我真的不擅长随机一对一地了解你，我们的会议没有目的。

Camille Fournier: And that's not to say those are always bad, but I do think that a lot of people with ...

卡米尔·福尼尔：这并不是说这些总是不好，但我确实认为很多人......

that's your comfort zone, if that getting to know you, random, relationship building one-on-one is your comfort zone, I should probably do more of them.

这就是你的舒适区，如果你的舒适区是随机认识你、建立一对一的关系，我可能应该做更多这样的事情。

You should probably do fewer of them because you should always be pushing yourself to get out of your comfort zone and are you really getting something out of that or are you just being able to tick a checkbox that says, I had eight meetings today, therefore I was productive.

你可能应该少做一些，因为你应该总是督促自己走出舒适区，你是否真的从中得到了一些东西，或者你只是能够勾选一个复选框，上面写着“我今天有八次会议，因此我很有成效”。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, that super resonates.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，这引起了超级共鸣。

Kind of pulling on this thread of how you operate and how you work something that I've heard you're really known for, is creating a work culture where people work really hard but also, have a really good work-life balance.

有点像你如何运作和如何工作，我听说你确实以这种方式而闻名，正在创造一种工作文化，让人们工作非常努力，但也有很好的工作与生活平衡。

And when we were chatting, you, you actually told me you're not a great believer in working too hard.

当我们聊天时，你，你实际上告诉我你不太相信工作太努力。

Can you just talk about this philosophy on building a great culture where people don't work too hard but also, get stuff done and don't burn out?

您能谈谈建立一种伟大文化的哲学吗？在这种文化中，人们不需要太努力地工作，但也能完成工作并且不会精疲力尽？

Camille Fournier: I think we all understand that if we could just figure out and focus on really the most important things, we would just ...

卡米尔·福尼尔：我想我们都明白，如果我们能够弄清楚并专注于真正最重要的事情，我们就会......

everything would be better.

一切都会更好。

And it's hard to figure out what the most important things are, but overwork kind of lets you just sidestep doing the hard work of figuring out what's important in the first place.

弄清楚最重要的事情是什么是很困难的，但是过度工作会让你逃避首先弄清楚什么是重要的艰苦工作。

I listened to one of your podcasts where you talked to someone who said, if you've never fired someone and regretted it, you don't know where the line is, of who you should and shouldn't buy.

我听过你的一个播客，你在其中与某人交谈，他说，如果你从未解雇过某人并为此感到后悔，你就不知道界限在哪里，也不知道你应该买谁，不应该买谁。

And I will admit I have mixed feelings about that, although I get what you're saying.

我承认我对此有复杂的感觉，尽管我明白你的意思。

If you don't regularly reset your expectations of what you should and shouldn't let slide, do you have any idea where the line of what is actually important to work on is?

如果你不定期重新设定自己对应该做什么和不应该做什么的期望，你是否知道真正重要的工作界限在哪里？

Camille Fournier: I just think ...

卡米尔·福尼尔：我只是觉得……

and the thing about that is it's not like firing people where you do it once or twice and you regret it and you learn pretty quickly, unfortunately.

问题在于，这并不像解雇员工那样，你做了一次或两次之后就后悔了，而且不幸的是，你很快就能学到东西。

I think you actually have to kind of regularly test the circumstances and challenge with, am I really getting the most out of myself?

我认为你实际上必须定期测试环境并挑战，我是否真的充分发挥了自己的作用？

Am I really producing the best value or am I just making ...

我真的创造了最大的价值还是我只是创造了......

swaging my internal guilt about I need to work 60-hour weeks, I need to sleep in the office, I need to whatever, to show that I'm a hard worker and I care.

发泄内心的愧疚，因为我需要每周工作 60 小时，我需要在办公室睡觉，我需要做任何事情，以表明我是一个勤奋的人，我在乎。

And so, I guess I do really think that people should challenge themselves to be focused and get the important stuff done and always be asking themselves what is important to do?

所以，我想我确实认为人们应该挑战自己，集中注意力，完成重要的事情，并始终问自己什么是重要的？

Camille Fournier: And what's important to do does change over time.

Camille Fournier：重要的事情会随着时间的推移而改变。

But if you're not regularly doing an audit of your time and trying to knock things off that list that don't matter, you're probably wasting a lot of time on things that don't matter and okay, you don't want to work less.

但是，如果你没有定期检查自己的时间，并尝试将不重要的事情从清单上剔除，那么你可能会在不重要的事情上浪费大量时间，好吧，你不想减少工作量。

You love working a lot, that's fine, but you could probably just be getting a lot more valuable stuff done if you would do these audits regularly, right?

你很喜欢工作，这很好，但如果你定期进行这些审核，你可能会完成更多有价值的事情，对吗？

I also think people don't delegate enough.

我还认为人们授权不够。

So, if you don't delegate, then you get overwhelmed because your team doesn't know how to do anything, because you haven't bothered to spend the time delegating, which actually takes more time initially, usually, you have to teach people whatever it is that you're trying to get them to do.

所以，如果你不委派，那么你会不知所措，因为你的团队不知道如何做任何事情，因为你懒得花时间委派，这实际上一开始需要更多时间，通常，你必须教人们你想让他们做的任何事情。

Camille Fournier: Not always, sometimes they'll surprise you and they're better at it than you are, but maybe not.

Camille Fournier：并非总是如此，有时他们会让你感到惊讶，而且他们比你更擅长，但也许不是。

And so, you have to teach them, but then you finally ...

所以，你必须教他们，但最后你......

you freed yourself up to scale.

你释放了自己的规模。

So I guess I'm just a real believer that working hard and a focused way for over fewer hours I think is a more productive way to approach work.

所以我想我只是一个真正的信徒，我认为在更少的时间内努力工作和专注是一种更有成效的工作方式。

And I think I have lived my career that way.

我想我的职业生涯就是这样度过的。

I've been successful in it and I have encouraged it and people who have worked for me, and I think I've seen a lot of success through it, but it's not a thoughtless exercise.

我在这方面取得了成功，我也鼓励了为我工作的人，我认为我通过它看到了很多成功，但这并不是一个不经思考的练习。

It's an active process of constant reflection to get to that focus.

这是一个不断反思的积极过程，以达到焦点。

Lenny Rachitsky: For someone that is listening to this and is like, I want to start doing this, is there anything ...

Lenny Rachitsky：对于那些正在听这个的人来说，我想开始这样做，有什么吗......

any specific practice you've found useful or any specific tactic to actually do this well?

您发现任何有用的具体实践或任何具体策略可以真正做到这一点？

Camille Fournier: I think there's different approaches you could take, right?

Camille Fournier：我认为您可以采取不同的方法，对吗？

One approach you could take is just like every Friday I'm going to stop working at 4 PM or something, let's say, and I am not, or I'm not going to let myself work this weekend.

你可以采取的一种方法是，就像每个星期五我都会在下午 4 点停止工作或其他什么，比方说，我不会，或者我不会让自己在这个周末工作。

Forcing yourself to log off, forcing yourself to have boundaries and saying ...

强迫自己退出，强迫自己有界限，然后说……

and then doing out of what did I get done, I think can help.

然后根据我已经完成的事情去做，我认为会有帮助。

That's scary.

太可怕了。

And people don't like doing that, but I do think that that's one of the best ways to do it is really just saying, I'm going to log off.

人们不喜欢这样做，但我确实认为这是最好的方法之一，实际上只是说，我要注销。

I'm going to log off every day this week at 6 PM.

这周我每天下午 6 点都会下线。

I'm going to ...

我要去...

because your brain is probably going to keep thinking.

因为你的大脑可能会继续思考。

Camille Fournier: You might still be a little stressed out, you're still thinking about work, you're still worrying about it, but there is a difference between thinking about it and doing it, and particularly for those of you who are earlier in your careers, this was actually, I think one of the reasons that I did get to mastery was because I was extremely good at being focused when I was at work, when I was a hands-on programmer and really writing code for many of the hours of the day.

Camille Fournier：你可能仍然有点压力，你仍然在思考工作，你仍然担心它，但是思考和去做之间是有区别的，特别是对于那些职业生涯早期的人来说，这实际上是，我认为我确实掌握的原因之一是因为我在工作时非常擅长集中注意力，当我是一名实践程序员并在一天中的很多时间里真正编写代码时。

And that meant I was not ...

这意味着我不是...

this was pre heavy social media.

这是在社交媒体大量使用之前。

I was much less distracted, which I don't know if I would be able to do it in the modern era as easily, but having that real heavy focus time because I was like, "I don't want to work on the weekend.

我的分心要少得多，我不知道我是否能够在现代轻松地做到这一点，但我有真正高度集中的时间，因为我想，“我不想在周末工作。

I don't want to stay here until 9 PM every night.

我不想每天晚上都待在这里直到晚上 9 点。

I just want to get this done." And it meant that I didn't do quite as many copies.

我只是想完成这件事。”这意味着我没有做那么多的副本。

Camille Fournier: I didn't go to lunch and chat with people all every day, but I was very, very productive and I learned to get a lot done in a short period of time.

Camille Fournier：我没有每天去吃午饭并与人聊天，但我非常非常高效，并且我学会了在短时间内完成很多工作。

And I do think learning those skills earlier in your career and then continuing to apply them throughout your career is another piece of advice.

我确实认为在职业生涯的早期学习这些技能，然后在整个职业生涯中继续应用它们是另一条建议。

Lenny Rachitsky: In terms of staying and getting focused, is there anything that helps you focus?

Lenny Rachitsky：就保持注意力和集中注意力而言，有什么可以帮助您集中注意力吗？

Is it like headphones, a drink?

它就像耳机、饮料吗？

What gets you in the zone?

是什么让你进入这个区域？

Camille Fournier: I mean, yeah, I have a lot of rituals.

卡米尔·福尼尔：我的意思是，是的，我有很多仪式。

I have my caffeination rituals.

我有我的咖啡习惯。

Camille Fournier: Well, I mean I can't drink coffee anymore because my stomach got messed up at some point, but I drink tea in the morning.

卡米尔·福尼尔：嗯，我的意思是我不能再喝咖啡了，因为我的胃在某些时候变得混乱，但我早上喝茶。

I drink caffeinated water also.

我也喝含咖啡因的水。

I have a Diet Coke at lunch, so I have these rituals of my caffeine hits that help me.

我午餐时喝健怡可乐，所以我有这些咖啡因习惯对我有帮助。

I have to be in a quiet place.

我必须在一个安静的地方。

I do find non-music that is ...

我确实发现非音乐是......

I really like Four Tet, for example, as music to focus or the new Andre 3000 Flute album is extremely good for focusing, where it's not quite predictable, no lyrics and not quite predictable.

例如，我真的很喜欢《四个春节》，因为音乐可以集中注意力，或者新的 Andre 3000 Fute 专辑非常适合集中注意力，但它不太可预测，没有歌词，也不太可预测。

For me, that helps me focus a lot.

对我来说，这帮助我集中注意力。

I can't be listening to any words and focus.

我无法听任何话，也无法集中注意力。

My brain just cannot ignore words.

我的大脑就是无法忽视文字。

So those are some of the things I use to help folks.

这些是我用来帮助人们的一些东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

I have a similar caffeine strategy.

我有类似的咖啡因策略。

I'm drinking tea always during these podcasts and this little thing I got here and then, my wife doesn't want me to drink Diet Coke because she thinks the sugar and it is not good, but I still drink it sometimes and it works great.

在这些播客期间我总是喝茶，然后我得到了这件小事，然后我的妻子不希望我喝健怡可乐，因为她认为含糖而且不好，但我有时仍然喝它，效果很好。

I switched to green tea.

我改喝绿茶。

That's my approach.

这就是我的方法。

Start with black tea and then switch to green tea.

从红茶开始，然后改喝绿茶。

Lenny Rachitsky: Man, there's so many things you shared that I wanted to dig into.

Lenny Rachitsky：伙计，你分享了很多我想深入研究的东西。

Let me share a couple of things.

让我分享一些事情。

Your point about delegating I thought was really important, and there's another benefit to learning to delegate, which is team members feel empowered.

我认为你关于委派的观点非常重要，学习委派还有另一个好处，那就是团队成员感到自己被赋予了权力。

You give them a chance to take on responsibility and they feel like I have an opportunity to show I can do this other thing.

你给他们一个承担责任的机会，他们觉得我有机会证明我可以做其他事情。

Camille Fournier: Yeah, and you're never going to scale if you don't delegate.

Camille Fournier：是的，如果你不授权，你永远无法扩大规模。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, and it's hard to start learning to do that, but once you get good at it, it becomes so great.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，开始学习这样做很困难，但是一旦你擅长了，它就会变得如此伟大。

I love just delegate everything every time, and people enjoy it.

我喜欢每次都将一切委托给别人，人们也喜欢这样。

They're like, "Amazing.

他们就像，“太棒了。

You're giving me opportunity." The thing you said about how ...

你给了我机会。”你所说的关于如何...

if you're not sometimes regretting something you cut or potentially firing someone you don't regret, Elon actually, Elon Musk has a great approach to this.

如果你有时不会后悔削减某些东西，或者可能解雇你不后悔的人，那么埃隆实际上，埃隆·马斯克对此有一个很好的方法。

I don't know if you've heard his philosophy on optimizing.

我不知道你是否听过他的优化哲学。

He has this whole five-step process of figuring out how to optimize something, and one of them is try to cut things like, do we need this thing or not?

他有一个完整的五步过程来弄清楚如何优化某些东西，其中之一是尝试削减诸如我们是否需要这个东西之类的东西？

And if you don't recognize that 10% of stuff you cut, it was a mistake, you're probably not cutting enough stuff.

如果你没有意识到你削减的 10% 的东西，那就是一个错误，你可能没有削减足够的东西。

Camille Fournier: You'll have to figure out your own metrics.

Camille Fournier：你必须找出自己的指标。

But I definitely think testing the limits, it's scary though.

但我绝对认为测试极限，尽管这很可怕。

I'm going to be honest.

我会说实话。

Doing that is always scary.

这样做总是很可怕。

It brings up like, I forgot to finish the assignment nightmares of school, especially for the overachievers that often end up in these kinds of companies and jobs.

它让人想起，我忘记完成学校的作业噩梦，特别是对于那些经常在这类公司和工作中取得优异成绩的人来说。

Again, you got to do things that scare you or you're never going to grow.

再说一次，你必须做那些让你害怕的事情，否则你永远不会成长。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, I'm going to go in a whole different direction.

Lenny Rachitsky：好吧，我要走向一个完全不同的方向。

You've got a book coming out about platform engineering and platform teams.

您出版了一本关于平台工程和平台团队的书。

This is something that I get a lot of questions about.

这是我收到很多问题的问题。

A lot of people are thinking about moving to a platform team or struggling working on a platform team or struggling working with a platform team.

很多人都在考虑转移到平台团队，或者在平台团队中努力工作，或者在平台团队中努力工作。

So I have a bunch of questions along these lines.

所以我有很多这样的问题。

The first is I asked a bunch of people that worked with you what to ask you and someone that worked with you shared this quote about his frustration working with platform teams that he's often complaining to you about and he works on customer-facing products.

首先，我问了一群与你一起工作的人该问你什么，与你一起工作的人分享了这句话，讲述了他与平台团队合作的挫败感，他经常向你抱怨，而且他从事面向客户的产品。

And so, he said platform teams that are often slow.

因此，他说平台团队通常进展缓慢。

Lenny Rachitsky: They're often pushing us to compromise on features to adopt their systems.

Lenny Rachitsky：他们经常迫使我们在功能上做出妥协以采用他们的系统。

They often get infinite funding even though they don't have to show any ROI.

即使他们不需要显示任何投资回报率，他们也经常获得无限的资金。

And so, maybe from the perspective of working with a platform team, say you're building something customer-facing, any tips for effectively working with a platform team and building a great relationship there.

因此，也许从与平台团队合作的角度来看，假设您正在构建面向客户的产品，以及与平台团队有效合作并在那里建立良好关系的任何技巧。

Camille Fournier: I'm very sympathetic to anybody who feels that way because part of the reason that I wrote this book, I co-wrote it with a friend, Ian Nolan, is that so many platform teams are guilty of all the things that he's complaining about, that my friend was complaining about, that they don't listen, they're not delivering effectively, they're not explaining their value to the company.

卡米尔·福尼尔：我非常同情任何有这种感觉的人，因为我和朋友伊恩·诺兰共同撰写这本书的部分原因是，很多平台团队都对他所抱怨的、我朋友所抱怨的所有事情感到内疚，他们不倾听，他们没有有效地交付，他们没有向公司解释他们的价值。

And it is infuriating when you're dealing with that.

当你处理这个问题时，你会感到愤怒。

And honestly, I'm very sympathetic.

老实说，我非常同情。

The thing that I would say though is the more you can, first of all, spend the time understanding that the platform team's problems a little bit and trying to collaborate and work with them and be clear about what it is you actually need and how you're willing to work with them, I think the better.

但我想说的是，首先，你越能花时间了解平台团队的问题，并尝试与他们合作并清楚你真正需要什么以及你愿意如何与他们合作，我认为越好。

Camille Fournier: I think if you get mad and you just try to avoid them or undermine them or whatever, that may work in the long run, but it's just going to make everything worse in the short run.

卡米尔·福尼尔：我认为，如果你生气了，你只是试图避免它们或破坏它们或其他什么，从长远来看，这可能会起作用，但从短期来看，它只会让一切变得更糟。

So I do think that if you've got a platform team that you're frustrated with, some tips, I would put are like, "Look, find the parts of that team that are good because I'm sure there are some," right?

所以我确实认为，如果你有一个让你感到沮丧的平台团队，我会提出一些建议，比如“看，找到该团队中好的部分，因为我确信有一些，”对吗？

Maybe the databases team is awesome.

也许数据库团队很棒。

And really make sure you are maintaining a good relationship with that part of the team and you can point to how you are collaborating extremely well with that part of the team.

并真正确保您与团队的该部分保持良好的关系，并且您可以指出您如何与团队的该部分进行非常好的合作。

Help give them product feedback.

帮助向他们提供产品反馈。

Camille Fournier: This is annoying but sometimes needs to happen because a lot of companies, I actually think product ...

Camille Fournier：这很烦人，但有时需要发生，因为很多公司，我实际上认为产品......

you need to have a product mindset and frankly, you need to have product managers to build good platforms, internal platforms.

你需要有产品思维，坦率地说，你需要产品经理来建立良好的平台，内部平台。

A lot of companies just don't do this.

很多公司只是不这样做。

They don't believe that they should waste head count on product managers for internal teams.

他们认为不应该在内部团队的产品经理上浪费人力。

So you end up with this platform team that has a lot of smart engineers, but they don't really know what to build.

所以你最终会得到这个平台团队，它拥有很多聪明的工程师，但他们并不真正知道要构建什么。

So they're just sort of building whatever they think is right.

所以他们只是在建造他们认为正确的东西。

And so sometimes your job is to product manage them, is to tell them, these are the problems that we have and this is what we need.

所以有时你的工作是对他们进行产品管理，就是告诉他们，这些是我们遇到的问题，这就是我们需要的。

Camille Fournier: And the clearer you can be about that, particularly when they don't have a product team, oftentimes, you can kind of lead them from the side in that way.

Camille Fournier：你越清楚这一点，特别是当他们没有产品团队时，通常，你就可以以这种方式从侧面领导他们。

And so I think that's another approach that I would take when you're in that situation.

所以我认为这是当你处于这种情况时我会采取的另一种方法。

Find the parts of the team that are working and working well with your team and make sure you develop those relationships and try to just get over the anger and frustration and just be clear about what it is that you need and help them understand what they should really be doing and building.

找到团队中与你的团队合作良好的部分，确保你发展这些关系，努力克服愤怒和沮丧，明确你需要什么，帮助他们理解他们真正应该做什么和建设什么。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is really interesting advice.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是非常有趣的建议。

So especially, you're saying if they don't have a PM helping, make sure they're guiding things well, is you can help them ...

所以特别是，你说如果他们没有 PM 帮助，确保他们很好地指导事情，你可以帮助他们......

basically help them think through stuff that will benefit them and also, help the stuff that you're trying to get done.

基本上帮助他们思考对他们有利的事情，并且帮助你想要完成的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's awesome advice.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是很棒的建议。

Okay, so what about from the leadership perspective, trying to build an effective platform team, do you have any advice on how to structure these teams and incentivize these teams to help them be successful?

好的，那么从领导力的角度来看，试图建立一个有效的平台团队，您对如何构建这些团队并激励这些团队以帮助他们取得成功有什么建议吗？

Camille Fournier: First of all, I'm a very strong believer that platform engineering has to involve software engineering.

Camille Fournier：首先，我坚信平台工程必须涉及软件工程。

If you don't have any software engineers on your platform team and you only have more operations systems engineers, DevOps, SRE, which I realize there are some SREs that are software engineers, but they tend to not want to write big software.

如果你的平台团队中没有任何软件工程师，而只有更多的操作系统工程师、DevOps、SRE，我意识到有一些 SRE 是软件工程师，但他们往往不想编写大型软件。

I think you're kind of missing the picture.

我认为你有点错过了这张照片。

Platform engineering is not just maintaining cloud infrastructure and doing small scripts or blueprints or enablement projects for other teams, because that doesn't really create a cohesive and coherent platform.

平台工程不仅仅是维护云基础设施和为其他团队编写小型脚本或蓝图或支持项目，因为这并不能真正创建一个有凝聚力和连贯性的平台。

It doesn't create products and frankly you need to be ...

它不会创造产品，坦率地说，你需要......

platforms are products, ultimately.

归根结底，平台就是产品。

Camille Fournier: You should be thinking about how do I create coherent offerings that make this company more productive?

Camille Fournier：您应该考虑如何创建连贯的产品来提高公司的生产力？

So you need software engineers.

所以你需要软件工程师。

Yes, you need sort of operations systems, SRE specialists as well.

是的，您还需要操作系统和 SRE 专家。

And of course, you need product people.

当然，你需要产品人员。

I had product teams on ...

我有产品团队...

product managers for all of my platform teams.

我所有平台团队的产品经理。

I've really developed out that practice in the companies that I've worked for doing this because I just believe that you're not going to get great results if you just believe that to engineers and engineering management.

我确实在我工作过的公司中发展了这种做法，因为我相信，如果你只相信工程师和工程管理人员，你将不会获得很好的结果。

They will do their best and you do occasionally find engineers that have really great product instincts in this space, but the actual details.

他们会尽力而为，你偶尔会发现工程师在这个领域具有非常好的产品本能，但在实际细节上。

Camille Fournier: And focus of the product work is just you can't write a bunch of code and/or manage a big software engineering team and be a product manager at the same time.

Camille Fournier：产品工作的重点是你不能一边编写一堆代码和/或管理一个大型软件工程团队，一边担任产品经理。

That's actually just asking, I think, too much of people to do that really well, at least for very long.

我认为，这实际上只是要求太多的人无法真正做好这一点，至少在很长一段时间内是这样。

So I think when it comes to structuring a team, recognize this is not just like SRE V2.

因此，我认为在构建团队时，要认识到这不仅仅是 SRE V2。

This is more than that.

这还不止于此。

You want software engineers, you want systems engineers, you want product people.

你需要软件工程师、系统工程师、产品人员。

And then, one of the reasons you want product folks is because you want to be thinking about impact-based, outcome-based approaches, not just like, "Well, we built this thing that seemed cool, we adopted this technology from this company because that's what everybody on the internet is talking about."

然后，你需要产品人员的原因之一是因为你想要考虑基于影响、基于结果的方法，而不仅仅是“嗯，我们开发了这个看起来很酷的东西，我们采用了这家公司的这项技术，因为这是互联网上每个人都在谈论的”。

Camille Fournier: Whether it's VC funded or big company.

Camille Fournier：无论是风险投资还是大公司。

We actually thought about what are the problems the engineers at my company are facing?

我们其实思考一下我公司的工程师面临的问题是什么？

How can we improve their productivity or deliver leverage to this business through whatever it is we're building, right?

我们如何才能通过我们正在构建的任何东西来提高他们的生产力或为该业务提供影响力，对吧？

Are we reducing the cycle time for engineering tasks?

我们是否缩短了工程任务的周期时间？

Are we solving problems that are preventing products from launching and scaling?

我们是否正在解决阻碍产品推出和扩展的问题？

Are we making really meaningful cost reductions or efficiencies and, in our products or in our platforms?

我们是否在我们的产品或平台中真正有意义地降低了成本或提高了效率？

These are some examples of measurable contributions, but I think one of the challenges is that people create these platform teams and think that they can be sort of divorced from having an impact focus because it's like, "Well, you just got to run the infrastructure and make sure it works."

这些是可衡量贡献的一些例子，但我认为挑战之一是，人们创建这些平台团队，并认为他们可能会脱离影响力焦点，因为这就像，“好吧，你只需要运行基础设施并确保它正常工作。”

Camille Fournier: And it's like, "No, you actually do still have to do ...

卡米尔·福尼尔：就像，“不，你实际上仍然需要做......

if you do that OKR stuff or goal setting," or whatever, you've got to take a lot of the best practices of product.

如果你做 OKR 的事情或目标设定，”或者其他什么，你就必须采用很多产品的最佳实践。

It's a little different in the internal world, but it's still very important if you want to do platforms.

内部世界有点不同，但是如果你想做平台的话，它仍然非常重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: On the line of having PMs within the platform teams.

Lenny Rachitsky：关于在平台团队中拥有 PM 的问题。

Some of the best PMs I've ever worked with where PMs on platform teams, and that just tells me, it's not like where you put PMs that are just meant like that's ...

我曾经与一些最好的 PM 合作过，他们都是平台团队的 PM，这只是告诉我，这并不像你把 PM 放在那样的地方......

where you could have some of the highest leverage because platform teams enable the rest of the company to move faster.

您可以在这里拥有最高的影响力，因为平台团队使公司的其他部门能够更快地行动。

Lenny Rachitsky: And one difference there, I'm curious if you agree, is your ratio of PM to engineer can be a lot higher.

Lenny Rachitsky：其中一个区别是，我很好奇您是否同意这一点，那就是您的产品经理与工程师的比例可能要高得多。

You can have a lot more engineers per PM on platform teams.

在平台团队中，每个产品经理可以拥有更多的工程师。

Camille Fournier: Yeah.

卡米尔·福尼尔：是的。

Yeah, I think that's right because I think so much of the work in a platform team is not exactly product work.

是的，我认为这是正确的，因为我认为平台团队的大部分工作并不完全是产品工作。

A lot of it is like scaling or really deep kind of technical, like I got to figure out how to actually do this technical thing or I've got to do this performance efficiency and you don't always need a product spec for that, right?

很多事情就像扩展或真正深入的技术，就像我必须弄清楚如何实际完成这项技术工作，或者我必须提高性能效率，而您并不总是需要产品规格，对吗？

It is often just a very engineering heavy task.

这通常是一项非常繁重的工程任务。

So yes, I think the ratios do tend to be a bit different.

所以是的，我认为这些比率确实有点不同。

Lenny Rachitsky: We dove over right into this topic.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们直接进入这个话题。

Maybe it might be helpful to help people understand what is a platform team, just what are examples of teams that would be considered platform teams.

也许帮助人们了解什么是平台团队以及哪些团队的示例可以被视为平台团队可能会有所帮助。

Camille Fournier: I mean, I guess the high level definition that I have of platform engineering is if you are developing and operating platforms that ...

Camille Fournier：我的意思是，我想我对平台工程的高级定义是，如果您正在开发和运营......

where they're trying to manage overall system complexity and deliver leverage to your business.

他们试图管理整个系统的复杂性并为您的业务提供杠杆作用。

So a lot of the teams that people think about nowadays and when they're talking about platform teams, they're talking a lot about teams that may have formerly been called dev tools.

因此，人们现在想到的很多团队，当他们谈论平台团队时，他们谈论的很多是以前可能被称为开发工具的团队。

For example, so your CI/CD tooling for the company, a lot of the cloud infrastructure provisioning and tooling.

例如，您为公司提供的 CI/CD 工具、大量云基础设施配置和工具。

If you're at a company with certain technical problems, you may very well be building semi bespoke storage systems.

如果您所在的公司存在某些技术问题，您很可能正在构建半定制存储系统。

For example, maybe part of your platform teams.

例如，可能是您的平台团队的一部分。

I actually think that there are ...

其实我觉得有...

And then, actually web frameworks ...

然后，实际上是 Web 框架......

Web mobile framework and support for that.

Web 移动框架及其支持。

Camille Fournier: That set of engineering can also be part of a platform offering.

Camille Fournier：这套工程也可以成为平台产品的一部分。

I actually kind of believe that there's also sort of what you might call integration platforms or platforms that are in between that infrastructurey developer tooly stuff and products.

实际上，我相信还有一种所谓的集成平台或介于基础设施开发人员工具和产品之间的平台。

So billing platforms for example, if you have a single billing platform for all of the different products in your company, that shares a lot of overlaps in the challenges of those more dev tools, infrastructurey platform teams because you're probably supporting lots of different product lines that are using this system that needs to be able to scale with certain efficiencies.

以计费平台为例，如果您对公司中的所有不同产品都有一个单一的计费平台，那么在这些更多的开发工具、基础设施平台团队的挑战中，它会面临很多重叠，因为您可能支持许多不同的产品线，这些产品线正在使用这个系统，需要能够以一定的效率进行扩展。

You need to still do the product discovery.

您仍然需要进行产品发现。

Camille Fournier: You probably have a little bit more of a business product focus than the pure internal tools teams, but that gets to the blended area.

Camille Fournier：与纯粹的内部工具团队相比，您可能更多地关注业务产品，但这涉及到混合领域。

Lenny Rachitsky: For founders that are earlier stage or companies that are smaller hearing this and they're like, "Oh, shit do I need a platform team?" So yeah, you're shaking your head, if people aren't watching on YouTube.

Lenny Rachitsky：对于处于早期阶段的创始人或规模较小的公司来说，听到这个消息后他们会想，“哦，我需要一个平台团队吗？”所以，是的，如果人们没有在 YouTube 上观看，你就在摇头。

What's a sign that's time maybe to start creating a platform team and setting aside resources for something like that?

什么迹象表明是时候开始创建一个平台团队并为类似的事情留出资源了？

Camille Fournier: So first of all, I think it gets to be like, you have 50 plus engineers.

Camille Fournier：首先，我认为你有 50 多名工程师。

I don't think this is the kind of thing that you start when you are 10 engineers, right?

我不认为这是你在 10 名工程师的时候就开始做的事情，对吧？

But when you are ...

但是当你...

so there's a lot of ad hoc coordination that's probably happening amongst your engineering groups right now, where maybe you just have one ...

因此，现在您的工程团队中可能正在进行大量临时协调，也许您只有一个......

you have your GitHub and somebody is making sure that all of that stuff is sort of working.

你有你的 GitHub，有人正在确保所有这些东西都能正常工作。

You have a few cloud databases and you got a couple of people on each team and they kind of share notes to figure out what's going on or whatever.

你有一些云数据库，每个团队都有几个人，他们会分享笔记来弄清楚发生了什么或其他什么。

Okay, it's all good, but at some point, you hit either a lot of inefficiency where you're seeing the same people across a bunch of different teams.

好吧，这一切都很好，但在某些时候，您会遇到很多效率低下的情况，即您会在一堆不同的团队中看到相同的人员。

Camille Fournier: Each team has the same kind of people having to solve the same kinds of problems.

Camille Fournier：每个团队都有相同类型的人员来解决相同类型的问题。

It just seems like why do I have three people in every team, dealing with this instead of centralizing it and making it a little more efficient.

这似乎就是为什么我每个团队都有三个人来处理这个问题，而不是集中处理并提高效率。

It also could be that you hit some core scaling issue that starts to really need a dedicated team to solve.

也可能是您遇到了一些核心扩展问题，开始真正需要专门的团队来解决。

Again, that could be developer productivity.

同样，这可能是开发人员的生产力。

Every development team is trying to do it their own way and everybody is just super slow because you just can't get code released and it all has to be coordinated across every different team and it's just like, what is going on?

每个开发团队都试图以自己的方式来做这件事，但每个人都超级慢，因为你无法发布代码，而这一切都必须在每个不同的团队之间进行协调，就像，发生了什么事？

We need to fix that or you actually have a technical challenging area that needs a focused team to fix the scaling.

我们需要解决这个问题，或者您实际上有一个技术具有挑战性的领域，需要一个专注的团队来解决扩展问题。

Camille Fournier: Those are some of the signs that you may want to start thinking about a platform team, but it's really like ...

Camille Fournier：这些迹象表明您可能想要开始考虑平台团队，但这真的就像......

generally speaking, I would not jump into it early.

一般来说，我不会太早投入其中。

This is something for companies that have matured where it's worth investing and making people internally more productive and centralizing certain functions just from a cost and efficiency basis at minimum.

对于已经成熟的公司来说，这是值得投资的事情，可以提高内部员工的生产力，并至少从成本和效率的角度集中某些职能。

Lenny Rachitsky: Say you're on a platform team, say you're an engineer or even a PM, any advice for how to be successful and thrive within that environment and be a great platform team.

Lenny Rachitsky：假设您在一个平台团队中，假设您是一名工程师甚至是产品经理，请提供有关如何在该环境中取得成功和蓬勃发展并成为一个出色的平台团队的建议。

Camille Fournier: If you want to do platforms.

Camille Fournier：如果你想做平台。

If you're an engineer, certainly if you're an engineer or an engineering manager, you've got to remember that half of the work is actually the operational quality, operational excellence of these things.

如果你是一名工程师，当然如果你是一名工程师或工程经理，你必须记住一半的工作实际上是运营质量、运营卓越这些东西。

Platform engineering is not just writing code and then throwing it over the walls to someone.

平台工程不仅仅是编写代码然后将其扔给某人。

Being interested and passionate about the operational challenges and scaling bits of systems I do think is fairly important, if you want to be a great platform engineer from a software engineer perspective, if you're more like a product manager, "Look, you've got to really care about ..." I think you got to be really both interested in working with really smart engineers who are going to know way more than you do about things.

我认为，如果你想从软件工程师的角度成为一名出色的平台工程师，如果你更像一名产品经理，那么对操作挑战和系统扩展感兴趣并充满热情，我认为这是相当重要的，“看，你必须真正关心……”我认为你必须对与真正聪明的工程师一起工作感兴趣，他们对事情的了解会比你多得多。

Camille Fournier: And almost being a really good, not necessarily zero to one but past one person because actually a lot of the best platform type offerings in companies start in individual application teams.

Camille Fournier：几乎是一个非常优秀的人，不一定是从零到一，而是超过一个人，因为实际上公司中许多最好的平台类型产品都是从单独的应用程序团队开始的。

An application team has a problem and they solve it for themselves and it turns out that that's actually a really good idea for how to solve that problem.

应用程序团队遇到问题，他们自己解决它，结果证明这实际上是解决该问题的一个非常好的主意。

So a good platform team is often looking around for those and then sort of taking them and then assimilating them and making them available to more and more people.

因此，一个好的平台团队通常会四处寻找这些内容，然后吸收它们，然后将它们提供给越来越多的人。

And so, I think if you want to be in that kind of zero to one building the brand new stuff all the time, you may not be as happy in a platform team.

因此，我认为如果你想一直以零到一的方式构建全新的东西，你可能不会在平台团队中那么快乐。

Camille Fournier: But if you're really interested a little bit more of taking things over, stabilizing, scaling them, making them efficient, making them evolve as a company evolves, I think you'll be happier in that circumstance.

Camille Fournier：但如果你真的对接管、稳定、扩展它们、提高它们的效率、让它们随着公司的发展而发展更感兴趣，我想在这种情况下你会更高兴。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Is there anything else along these lines before we wrap up and yet a very exciting lightning round that you think might be helpful for folks working with platform teams or working on a platform team, building platform teams?

在我们结束之前，还有其他类似的事情吗？您认为这可能对与平台团队合作或在平台团队中工作、构建平台团队的人们有所帮助？

Camille Fournier: I think there are two things that we haven't touched on or maybe three that are really hard about platform teams and that I think don't get much press, which is running platform projects is a little bit different than running agile projects.

Camille Fournier：我认为有两件事我们还没有触及，或者可能有三件事对于平台团队来说确实很困难，而且我认为没有得到太多的报道，运行平台项目与运行敏捷项目有点不同。

You can take a lot of the best practices you may have learned from agile type product delivery, but you are running longer, running larger scale, more complex builds because a lot of the stuff that you build at the platform level just takes longer.

您可以采用从敏捷型产品交付中学到的许多最佳实践，但是您运行的时间更长，运行更大规模、更复杂的构建，因为您在平台级别构建的很多东西只是需要更长的时间。

It's a little bit more complicated.

这有点复杂。

So you've got to be willing to get into that kind of stuff, especially if you're in a management job in that space.

因此，您必须愿意参与此类工作，特别是如果您在该领域从事管理工作。

Camille Fournier: You are going to deal with a lot of migrations as well.

Camille Fournier：您还将处理很多迁移问题。

So it is very annoying.

所以这很烦人。

Migrations happen, even if you don't force them on people, your a cloud provider is going to say, oh, you've got to migrate from EKS view 19 to 121 or whatever, and that may require changes in code and then that's a real pain in the butt for all of the application teams.

即使您不强迫人们进行迁移，您的云提供商也会说，哦，您必须从 EKS 视图 19 迁移到 121 或其他版本，这可能需要更改代码，这对所有应用程序团队来说都是真正的痛苦。

So people who are interested in how to smooth over the customer and company impact of this underlying change, I think we'll be very happy in platform teams.

因此，对于如何消除这一潜在变化对客户和公司的影响感兴趣的人们，我认为我们会对平台团队感到非常高兴。

If you're not interested in that, you may not enjoy the work as much.

如果你对此不感兴趣，你可能不会那么喜欢这份工作。

There's just a lot of detail oriented work and platforms.

有很多注重细节的工作和平台。

And then of course, the final part is the stakeholders are a nightmare.

当然，最后一部分是利益相关者是一场噩梦。

My friend who wrote the question about how his product or his platform partners drive him crazy.

我的朋友写了一个关于他的产品或他的平台合作伙伴如何让他发疯的问题。

I have no doubt he drives them crazies.

我毫不怀疑他让他们发疯。

Camille Fournier: Because you've got all of these stakeholders, your peers and tech, maybe product managers, maybe executives that are like, what is this team?

Camille Fournier：因为你有所有这些利益相关者、你的同事和技术人员，也许是产品经理，也许是高管，他们会问，这个团队是什么？

Are they really worth the money?

他们真的值这个钱吗？

Why are we spending so much on it?

为什么我们要花这么多钱呢？

I don't understand what they're doing.

我不明白他们在做什么。

I could do it better in some cases.

在某些情况下我可以做得更好。

So there's actually a big part of the job, particularly as either product managers or engineering leadership is stakeholder management and really learning how to do that well.

因此，实际上这项工作的很大一部分，特别是产品经理或工程领导层都是利益相关者管理，并且真正学习如何做好这一点。

And that is not always, that's probably I think universally agreed to be the least fun part of the job.

但情况并非总是如此，我认为这可能是工作中最不有趣的部分。

I don't think anybody loves it, but it is certainly a skill set.

我认为没有人喜欢它，但这确实是一项技能。

I'm glad that I have.

我很高兴我有。

And so, I think if you are thinking about building one of these teams.

因此，我认为如果您正在考虑建立其中一支团队。

Camille Fournier: And you're like, I can just do the fun tech stuff or the cool product stuff, I'm really passionate about engineering productivity or I'm really passionate about state scale storage systems and I don't want to think about any of the other stuff.

Camille Fournier：你会说，我可以做有趣的技术或很酷的产品，我真的对工程生产力充满热情，或者我真的对状态规模存储系统充满热情，我不想考虑任何其他事情。

You may not actually be happy in the long run in leadership positions.

从长远来看，你在领导职位上实际上可能并不快乐。

It may be fine as an individual contributor, but for leaders in particular, there's a lot more to it than the fun tech problems, the fun operations problems, even the product.

作为个人贡献者可能没问题，但特别是对于领导者来说，这不仅仅是有趣的技术问题、有趣的运营问题，甚至是产品。

Lenny Rachitsky: You said there's a few things we haven't touched on.

Lenny Rachitsky：你说有一些事情我们还没有触及。

Is there anything else?

还有别的吗？

Camille Fournier: That's the fastest and anybody who's interested, my book will be coming out in the next couple of months from O'Reilly and covers all of this depth.

Camille Fournier：这是最快的，任何感兴趣的人，我的书将在接下来的几个月内由 O'Reilly 出版，涵盖所有这些深度。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, is there a date specifically people should watch out for?

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，有一个人们应该特别注意的日期吗？

Camille Fournier: I think it's actually pre-order on Amazon now.

Camille Fournier：我认为现在实际上已经在亚马逊上预购了。

It's called Platform Engineering, and then, there's ...

这就是所谓的平台工程，然后，还有......

I think it's like a guide for technical product and people leaders, something like that.

我认为这就像技术产品和人员领导者的指南之类的。

But I think the release ...

但我认为发布...

I don't know exactly when the Kindle release will be, but we're still in copy edits, but it should be done pretty soon.

我不知道 Kindle 的具体发布时间，但我们仍在进行文案编辑，但应该很快就会完成。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，太棒了。

So you can pre-order it now.

所以您现在就可以预订。

Rolling to it obviously in the show notes and description, it's called Platform Engineering.

在节目注释和描述中很明显地滚动到它，它被称为平台工程。

Before we get to a very exciting lightning round, I want to take us to a recurring segment on this podcast that I call AI Corner.

在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，我想先带我们看一下这个播客上的一个反复出现的部分，我称之为“人工智能角”。

AI is very top of mind for a lot of people and I'm always curious how people are finding it valuable in their work or in their life.

对于很多人来说，人工智能是最重要的，我一直很好奇人们如何发现它在工作或生活中有价值。

So the question is there anything you've found AI to be helpful with ...

所以问题是你发现人工智能有什么帮助......

in your AI work?

在你的人工智能工作中？

Any way you use it in an interesting way?

你有什么有趣的方式使用它吗？

Camille Fournier: I find it helpful, for example, if I've written a sentence and I'm like, I like this sentence, but I feel like, I don't like the phrasing or the format that I've used, it needs to be edited, but I can't quite figure out how.

Camille Fournier：我发现它很有帮助，例如，如果我写了一个句子，我喜欢这个句子，但我觉得，我不喜欢我使用的措辞或格式，它需要编辑，但我不太清楚如何编辑。

I will often put it into ChatGPT and be like, "Can you reframe this?

我经常会把它放入 ChatGPT 中，然后说：“你能重新构造一下吗？

Can you rephrase this for me?" It doesn't always work well, but sometimes it does.

你能为我重新表述一下吗？”它并不总是有效，但有时确实有效。

It's like, "Oh yeah, if I just switched this around or changed this word choice, it's a much easier to read sentence." I do think it's ...

就像，“哦，是的，如果我只是改变这个或改变这个词的选择，它是一个更容易阅读的句子。”我确实认为这是...

I think it's just before that and small.

我认为它就在那之前而且很小。

I think it's large, lots of texts I haven't had as much luck with.

我认为它很大，有很多我没有那么幸运的文本。

I'm a little bit of an AI novice still, I would say.

我想说，我仍然是一个人工智能新手。

Camille Fournier: What I will say is that AI is really bad, if you try to ask it for quotes or at least ChatGPT is.

Camille Fournier：我要说的是，如果你试图向 AI 询问报价，或者至少 ChatGPT 是这样，那么 AI 真的很糟糕。

I haven't used a lot of the other ones that much.

其他的很多我都没用过。

I actually saw there was some Twitter or some social media thing that's like, did Francis Ford Coppola get fake reviews from ChatGPT of the new, what is it, Agopolus.

我实际上看到有一些 Twitter 或一些社交媒体，比如弗朗西斯·福特·科波拉 (Francis Ford Coppola) 从 ChatGPT 那里得到了关于新产品的虚假评论，这是什么，Agopolus。

Camille Fournier: And I was like, I actually had that scenario where I was like, I need a quote ...

卡米尔·福尼尔：我当时想，我实际上有过这样的场景，我需要报价......

I was looking for quotes for the book and I was like, maybe ChatGPT knows, but I was like, "Can you give me any good quotes on ..." I forget what it was.

我在寻找这本书的引言，我想，也许 ChatGPT 知道，但我想，“你能给我任何关于……的好的引言吗？”我忘了它是什么。

Let's just say it was on managing complexity or something like that, and it gave me these really interesting quotes.

我们只能说这是关于管理复杂性或类似的事情，它给了我这些非常有趣的引言。

I was like, that's great, but I better double check that.

我当时想，那太好了，但我最好仔细检查一下。

And they were not real.

而且它们不是真实的。

They were never real, not a single quote.

它们从来都不是真实的，没有一句引言。

And I'd be like, that's not actually a real quote.

我想说，这实际上并不是真正的引言。

Yes, you're right.

是的，你说得对。

That's not, so here's a different one.

事实并非如此，所以这里有一个不同的。

Camille Fournier: I was like, that's still not a real quote, so don't ask it for quotes because ...

Camille Fournier：我当时想，这仍然不是真正的报价，所以不要要求它报价，因为......

or if you do, make sure it's a real quote and not just an interestingly phrased ...

或者如果你这样做，请确保它是真实的引用，而不仅仅是有趣的措辞......

I mean good summarization in some ways of the text, it was sort of quoting from, just not an actual quote.

我的意思是对文本的某些方面进行了很好的总结，它是一种引用，而不是实际引用。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a good reminder of just generally don't assume what it's telling is true.

Lenny Rachitsky：这很好地提醒我们，不要假设它所讲述的内容是真实的。

Generally, it's not giving you real things.

一般来说，它不会给你真实的东西。

It's making things up and usually they're right, but often they might not be right.

它是在编造事情，通常它们是对的，但通常它们也可能不正确。

That's a really good reminder.

这真是一个很好的提醒。

On that first tactic, is there a prompt that you find helpful for how to actually feed it in there?

在第一个策略中，您是否发现有一个提示对于如何实际将其输入其中有帮助？

Is it just here's a line, help me come up with a better version of it?

难道只是这句话，帮我想出一个更好的版本吗？

Camille Fournier: No, I have not figured out the prompt engineering thing at all.

Camille Fournier：不，我根本没有弄清楚即时工程的事情。

I tried to get it to summarize a paper for me the other day, and it literally gave me the summary of a different paper, and then I asked friends and they were like, "Well, here's a summary." I was like, "Actually, that seems like a good summary." And they're like, "Well, first I told the AI that it was an expert in the field and that it needed to read carefully and that it was really smart," and I'm just like, how do I have to manage the machine?

前几天我试图让它为我总结一篇论文，它实际上给了我另一篇论文的摘要，然后我问朋友，他们说，“好吧，这是一个摘要。”我当时想，“实际上，这似乎是一个很好的总结。”他们会说，“好吧，首先我告诉人工智能，它是该领域的专家，它需要仔细阅读，而且它真的很聪明，”我想，我该如何管理机器？

I already have to manage all of these humans?

我已经必须管理所有这些人了？

Why are you making me manage machines now too, please?

为什么现在还要让我管理机器？

Lenny Rachitsky: I thought this was going to solve all of our problems.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这会解决我们所有的问题。

Yeah, that role.

是的，就是那个角色。

There's an acronym for how to approach engineering, and there's always like give it the role.

有一个关于如何进行工程的缩写，并且总是喜欢赋予它这个角色。

Here's the role you're going to play for me.

这就是你要为我扮演的角色。

You are an amazing writer and here's what I want from you.

你是一位了不起的作家，这就是我对你的期望。

Yeah.

是的。

I'm also very bad at it.

我也很不擅长。

By the way, Claude I here is really good at writing.

顺便说一句，这里的克劳德我真的很擅长写作。

That's one of its superpowers, so if you want to try writing, that's worth trying.

这是它的超能力之一，所以如果你想尝试写作，那值得尝试。

Claude by Anthropic.

人类的克劳德。

On the second point you made of fake quote.

关于第二点，你提出了虚假报价。

So, yeah, Francis Ford Coppola is coming out with this movie with ...

所以，是的，弗朗西斯·福特·科波拉将与这部电影一起上映......

As you mentioned, this trailer is just full of all these quotes that people supposedly said about all his other movies that Godfather and stuff.

正如你所提到的，这部预告片充满了人们据说对他所有其他电影《教父》之类的东西所说的所有这些引言。

And they're all like, these are terrible ...

他们都说，这些太可怕了......

They're all terribly mean quotes about his movies.

这些都是关于他的电影的极其刻薄的台词。

Lenny Rachitsky: It turns out, yeah, they're all not real quotes, and they actually took down the trailer, I just read because he's just making up quotes by famous critics.

Lenny Rachitsky：事实证明，是的，它们都不是真正的引语，而且他们实际上把预告片拿下来了，我只是读到了，因为他只是编造了著名评论家的引语。

Camille Fournier: You can get fooled.

卡米尔·福尼尔：你可能会被愚弄。

I don't know if it was ChatGPT or a cheeky intern or something, but we can get-

我不知道是 ChatGPT 还是厚脸皮的实习生还是什么，但我们可以得到-

Lenny Rachitsky: Or very intentional marketing stint.

Lenny Rachitsky：或者是非常有意的营销活动。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

Anyway, with that Camille, we have reached our very exciting lightning round.

不管怎样，有了卡米尔，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

First question, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

第一个问题，您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Camille Fournier: So the first one is, What Got You Here Won't Get You There.

卡米尔·福尼尔：所以第一个是，让你到达这里的东西不会让你到达那里。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

I think anybody who is trying to challenge themselves and grow, should read it, it's fantastic.

我认为任何想要挑战自己并成长的人都应该阅读这本书，它太棒了。

The second one is called When Things Fall Apart by Pema Chodron.

第二个是 Pema Chodron 的《When Things Fall Apart》。

That is when you are ...

那就是当你...

For me anyway, when I am struggling with whatever circumstances around me, I find it a very soothing or reminder that life is hard and the best way to ...

无论如何，对我来说，当我在周围的任何情况下挣扎时，我发现它非常舒缓或提醒我生活是艰难的，这是最好的方式......

you just sort of have to breathe with it and be with it and let it remind you of how life is hard for everyone and sort of make you a kinder person in the process.

你只需要与它一起呼吸，与它在一起，让它提醒你生活对每个人来说是多么艰难，并在这个过程中让你成为一个更友善的人。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there a favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?

Lenny Rachitsky：最近有没有您真正喜欢的最喜欢的电影或电视节目？

Camille Fournier: I loved Alien Romulus.

卡米尔·福尼尔：我喜欢外星人罗穆卢斯。

It was great.

太棒了。

If you like a scary alien movie, fantastic.

如果你喜欢恐怖的外星电影，那太棒了。

Lenny Rachitsky: I hate scary movies, so that's a new Alien movie.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我讨厌恐怖电影，所以这是一部新的《异形》电影。

Okay.

好的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Anyone know there was a new Alien movie.

Lenny Rachitsky：任何人都知道有一部新的《异形》电影。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Is there a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love, whether it's an app or even physical product?

您最近发现有一款您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？无论是应用程序还是实体产品？

Camille Fournier: So I don't know about recent, I'm a big Whoop fan.

Camille Fournier：所以我不知道最近的情况，我是 Whoop 的忠实粉丝。

I got it during the pandemic and it is one of my ...

我在大流行期间得到了它，它是我的...

I'm just a weird fan girl for it.

我只是一个奇怪的粉丝。

I don't know.

我不知道。

I just really ...

我只是真的...

I enjoy it.

我很享受。

I use it every day.

我每天都用它。

Maybe it's totally inaccurate, but it seems accurate enough and I just find it a very interesting and cool product.

也许它完全不准确，但它看起来足够准确，我只是发现它是一个非常有趣和很酷的产品。

Lenny Rachitsky: I know Whoop product, people listen to this podcast, so I think they'll be happy to hear that.

Lenny Rachitsky：我知道 Whoop 产品，人们会听这个播客，所以我认为他们会很高兴听到这个。

Two more questions.

还有两个问题。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to, share with friends or family, find useful and work around life?

您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，您经常回顾、与朋友或家人分享、发现它有用并在生活中发挥作用？

Camille Fournier: If you don't challenge yourself, if you don't take risks, you'll never grow.

Camille Fournier：如果你不挑战自己，如果你不冒险，你就永远不会成长。

That's a big one.

那是一件大事。

I think you've got to ...

我想你必须...

challenging yourself, taking risks is how you grow.

挑战自己，承担风险是你成长的方式。

I think the other one for me is stay curious.

我认为对我来说另一件事是保持好奇心。

The more you can remember that there's more that you don't know than that you do know, and staying open-minded and being willing to be wrong, I think the happier you'll be and the better you'll be as a leader for sure.

你越能记住，你不知道的东西比你知道的更多，并且保持开放的心态并愿意犯错，我认为你会越快乐，作为领导者肯定会越好。

Lenny Rachitsky: Final question, on the topic of working out, you're blocking it with your head generally during the podcast, when we moved ...

Lenny Rachitsky：最后一个问题，关于锻炼的话题，在播客期间，当我们搬家时，你通常会用你的头挡住它......

Behind you is a very significant looking barbell set or dumbbell set, I don't know which one is which.

你身后有一套看起来很显眼的杠铃或哑铃，我不知道哪个是哪个。

Talk about your workout regimen or anything along the lines of how you work out.

谈论您的锻炼方案或任何与您锻炼方式相关的事情。

Camille Fournier: I have been lifting rates probably for longer than some of your podcast listeners have been alive, which says more about my age than anything else.

卡米尔·福尼尔：我提高费率的时间可能比你们的一些播客听众的生存时间还要长，这比其他任何事情都更能说明我的年龄。

So I used be ...

所以我曾经是...

I now have two kids, so I lift weights as sort of maintenance, but I used to be a very ...

我现在有两个孩子，所以我举重作为一种维护，但我曾经是一个非常......

I could deadlift than twice my body weight and I was just a very, very strong person.

我可以硬拉超过我体重两倍的重量，而且我是一个非常非常强壮的人。

Now of course, everybody is into weightlifting, which makes the gym really annoying.

当然，现在每个人都喜欢举重，这让健身房真的很烦人。

So partly why I have a set in here, a small set with a baby sized bar is ...

所以我在这里有一套的部分原因是，一套带有婴儿尺寸酒吧的小套装是......

so when I can't make it to the gym, I can at least lift a little bit at home.

所以当我不能去健身房时，我至少可以在家里举重一点。

Lenny Rachitsky: What's your favorite workout, lifting wise?

Lenny Rachitsky：你最喜欢的锻炼方式是什么？举重方面？

Camille Fournier: I love really basic deadlift, squat, overhead press, that kind of very simple, the classic lifts.

Camille Fournier：我非常喜欢基本的硬拉、深蹲、过头推举等非常简单的经典举重动作。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Camille, this is awesome.

卡米尔，这太棒了。

As everything, I was hoping it'd be, we covered so much stuff.

正如我所希望的那样，我们涵盖了很多东西。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out, follow up on stuff and check out your books and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想要联系、跟进事情并查看您的书籍，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Camille Fournier: Yes, so with the weird state of social media now, that's actually a harder question to answer than it normally is.

卡米尔·福尼尔：是的，鉴于现在社交媒体的怪异状态，这实际上是一个比平时更难回答的问题。

I am on LinkedIn, so you can always follow me on LinkedIn and I'll probably ...

我在 LinkedIn，所以你可以随时在 LinkedIn 上关注我，我可能会...

I haven't traditionally put that much there, but I'm expecting I'll probably start putting more there in the coming months.

传统上我不会在那里放那么多东西，但我预计在接下来的几个月里我可能会开始在那里放更多东西。

I also still use Medium when I write.

我写作时也仍然使用Medium。

I actually like Medium, so medium.com, scamille is my username.

我其实很喜欢Medium，所以medium.com，scamille是我的用户名。

Those are two good ways.

这是两个好方法。

I have a Twitter/X account that it is currently locked, and I may or may not unlock it at some point, but social media, as I said, has gotten weird.

我有一个 Twitter/X 帐户，目前已被锁定，我可能会也可能不会在某个时候解锁它，但正如我所说，社交媒体已经变得很奇怪。

So I think probably LinkedIn is the easiest way for this kind of stuff.

所以我认为 LinkedIn 可能是处理这类事情最简单的方法。

Lenny Rachitsky: And I read somewhere that scamille is rooted in your love of ska music back when you were younger.

Lenny Rachitsky：我在某处读到，斯卡米尔源于你年轻时对斯卡音乐的热爱。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Camille Fournier: It's true, yes.

卡米尔·福尼尔：是的，是的。

It was from high school.

那是从高中开始的。

I was a big ska fan.

我是斯卡的忠实粉丝。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's funny how our usernames just stick from, we were really young and that's the way we're represented online now forever.

Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是我们的用户名是如何坚持下来的，我们真的很年轻，这就是我们现在永远在网上代表的方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's absurd.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太荒谬了。

And then, you didn't answer my final question, which is how can listeners be useful to you?

然后，你没有回答我的最后一个问题，即听众如何对你有用？

Camille Fournier: I have a new book coming out.

卡米尔·福尼尔：我有一本新书要出版了。

I have another book that I've already written.

我还有另一本书已经写好了。

Obviously, I love it when people buy my books so I love when people share my books with other people.

显然，我喜欢人们购买我的书，所以我喜欢人们与其他人分享我的书。

My first book is translated into a bunch of languages, which is super exciting, and I hope that if you read it and enjoy it and learn something from it, you will let me know.

我的第一本书被翻译成多种语言，这非常令人兴奋，我希望如果您阅读它并喜欢它并从中学到一些东西，请让我知道。

Tag me on some social media.

在一些社交媒体上标记我。

I think that's just awesome and stay tuned.

我认为这太棒了，请继续关注。

Look, if you are looking for people potentially to come talk to your company about platform engineering, I could be interested in that, but I always love to meet interesting people.

听着，如果您正在寻找有可能与您的公司谈论平台工程的人，我可能对此感兴趣，但我总是喜欢结识有趣的人。

If you're in New York, reach out, who knows.

如果您在纽约，请联系我们，谁知道呢。

This has been an amazing, amazing time getting to chat with you, Lenny.

莱尼，与你聊天真是一段非常非常美妙的时光。

Thank you so much for inviting me on the show.

非常感谢您邀请我参加节目。

Lenny Rachitsky: I feel the same way.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我也有同样的感觉。

Thank you for agreeing to come on the show, Camille, you're awesome.

谢谢你同意参加这个节目，卡米尔，你太棒了。

Thank you so much for being here.

非常感谢您来到这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: Bye everyone.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：大家再见。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。