'Inside Canva: Coaches not managers, giving away your Legos, and embracing AI | Cameron Adams'

Lenny Rachitsky: Canva is bigger than Figma and Miro and Webflow combined.

Lenny Rachitsky：Canva 比 Figma、Miro 和 Webflow 的总和还要大。

You guys are generating $2.3 billion in ARR and you're profitable.

你们创造了 23 亿美元的 ARR，并且实现了盈利。

You're also growing 60% year over year and it's accelerating.

您的年增长率也达到 60%，而且还在加速增长。

Cameron Adams: I run everyone through the culture of Canva.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：我向每个人介绍 Canva 文化。

One of those sections is on giving away your Lego, finding joy in the other things of building a team, passing on your experience, helping other people do great writing or great product building or great engineering.

其中一个部分是赠送你的乐高积木，在建立团队的其他事情中寻找乐趣，传递你的经验，帮助其他人写出精彩的文章或伟大的产品构建或伟大的工程。

Lenny Rachitsky: When is this coaching concept?

Lenny Rachitsky：这个教练概念是什么时候出现的？

I've never heard of this.

我从来没有听说过这个。

Cameron Adams: We don't really have managers, but everyone at Canva has a coach.

Cameron Adams：我们实际上没有经理，但 Canva 的每个人都有教练。

They're constantly working with you to look at your skills, but also when it might be time to move on to the next level.

他们会不断地与您一起考察您的技能，同时也会在可能需要进入下一个级别时与您合作。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm curious just how you think about product management.

Lenny Rachitsky：我很好奇您如何看待产品管理。

Cameron Adams: I didn't want to do product management like they did at Google, and that's because of the different cultures.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：我不想像他们在谷歌那样进行产品管理，这是因为文化不同。

I have seen product managers at other companies who are very independent of teams and that seems very weird to me.

我见过其他公司的产品经理非常独立于团队，这对我来说很奇怪。

For us, product managers are really connected.

对于我们来说，产品经理确实是有联系的。

Lenny Rachitsky: It feels like Canva has just been this non-stop up into the right all win, all success.

Lenny Rachitsky：感觉 Canva 一直在不断地取得胜利、成功。

In reality, that's never actually the case.

事实上，事实并非如此。

Cameron Adams: How many failure stories do you want?

卡梅伦·亚当斯：你想要多少失败的故事？

We got plenty.

我们得到了很多。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Cameron Adams.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：今天，我的客人是卡梅伦·亚当斯。

Cameron is the co-founder and chief product officer at Canva, which is a truly incredible business and company.

卡梅伦是 Canva 的联合创始人兼首席产品官，这是一家真正令人难以置信的企业和公司。

At the top of the episode, I share a bunch of stats.

在本集的开头，我分享了一些统计数据。

They'll probably surprise you about the scale that Canva has reached these days.

他们可能会对 Canva 目前所达到的规模感到惊讶。

Lenny Rachitsky: In our conversation, we cover a ton of ground including how Canva stays product obsessed, their freemium strategy, lessons about building MVPs, how Cam and the product team think about AI within their product, also peek into their unique team culture, their SEO and growth strategy, and also peek into some of the stuff they just launched.

Lenny Rachitsky：在我们的谈话中，我们讨论了很多话题，包括 Canva 如何保持对产品的痴迷、他们的免费增值策略、关于构建 MVP 的经验教训、Cam 和产品团队如何考虑他们产品中的人工智能，还深入了解了他们独特的团队文化、SEO 和增长策略，以及他们刚刚推出的一些产品。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is for anyone building or growing a product or company, and I guarantee by the end of this conversation, you'll be as blown away with Canva as I am.

Lenny Rachitsky：这一集适合任何构建或发展产品或公司的人，我保证在本次对话结束时，您会像我一样对 Canva 感到震惊。

With that, I bring you Cameron Adams.

接下来，我为您带来卡梅伦·亚当斯。

And if you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously.

这是避免错过未来剧集的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: Cameron, thank you so much for being here, and welcome to the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：卡梅伦，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Cameron Adams: It is so great to be here, Lenny.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：莱尼，很高兴来到这里。

I'm very excited.

我很兴奋。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm even more excited.

Lenny Rachitsky：我更兴奋。

I have at least a billion questions for you.

我至少有十亿个问题要问你。

I'm hoping I get through at least half a billion.

我希望我至少能突破 5 亿美元。

There's so much I want to talk to you about, but I want to start with a warm and fuzzy question.

我有很多话想和你谈，但我想从一个温暖而模糊的问题开始。

Do you ever just take a moment to reflect on the insane success of this business that you've built?

您是否曾花点时间反思一下您所创建的企业所取得的疯狂成功？

And before you answer that, I'm going to share some stats about Canva that I think are going to blow people's minds.

在你回答这个问题之前，我将分享一些关于 Canva 的统计数据，我认为这些统计数据会让人们大吃一惊。

So think about the answer.

所以想一下答案。

Lenny Rachitsky: So I was researching Canva, all of this was just...

Lenny Rachitsky：所以我正在研究 Canva，所有这一切只是......

I didn't know any of this actually, and I think it'll surprise a lot of people just the scale that Canva has reached at this point.

我实际上对此一无所知，我认为 Canva 目前所达到的规模会让很多人感到惊讶。

Okay.

好的。

So Canva is bigger than Figma and Miro and Webflow combined both in terms of valuation and in terms of revenue.

因此，无论是在估值还是在收入方面，Canva 都比 Figma、Miro 和 Webflow 的总和还要大。

You guys are generating $2.3 billion in ARR per year and you're profitable.

你们每年创造 23 亿美元的 ARR，并且盈利。

You've been profitable for about seven years at this point.

到目前为止，您已经盈利了大约七年。

You're also growing 60% year over year and it's accelerating, faster than last year.

同比增长 60%，而且增长速度比去年更快。

I think this is all quite unheard of at this scale.

我认为在如此规模的情况下，这都是闻所未闻的。

Do you ever just reflect back on this and, like, "Okay, I've done well."?

你是否曾经回顾过这一点，然后说：“好吧，我做得很好。”？

Cameron Adams: When you say it all like that, it sounds pretty amazing.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：当你这么说的时候，听起来很神奇。

I don't think every day you're cognizant of that growth and that achievement, but there are particular moments where you get to really reflect, and for me, it's most of the time when we bring the team together.

我不认为你每天都能意识到这种成长和成就，但在某些特定的时刻你可以真正反思，对我来说，大多数时候都是我们让团队团结在一起的时候。

Obviously now we're in a pretty virtual world, hybrid in some best cases.

显然，现在我们处于一个非常虚拟的世界，在某些最好的情况下是混合的。

But when the team all get together and we celebrate is when we finally have those moments where you get to step out of yourself, look at this huge sea of people and realize what you've achieved together.

但是，当团队所有人聚集在一起并庆祝时，我们终于可以走出自我，看看这茫茫人海，并意识到你们共同取得的成就。

Cameron Adams: Probably the most recent moment we got to do that was for our 10th birthday last year.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：我们最近一次这样做可能是去年我们十岁生日的时候。

So Canva is largely centered in Australia.

所以 Canva 主要集中在澳大利亚。

We've got lots of offices around the world, but we had a big birthday celebration in Sydney right on the harbor there in front of the water and we had thousands of people there, and we just got to look back on everything we've achieved over the previous 10 years, and that was the pretty amazing moment.

我们在世界各地设有很多办事处，但我们在悉尼的海港海滨举行了盛大的生日庆祝活动，那里有数千人，我们必须回顾过去 10 年所取得的一切，那是一个非常令人惊叹的时刻。

Lenny Rachitsky: What about just personally, you basically went from a designer on Google Wave to a co-founder of one of the most generational successful startups in the past decade.

Lenny Rachitsky：就个人而言，您基本上从 Google Wave 的设计师变成了过去十年中最成功的初创公司之一的联合创始人。

How does that feel?

感觉如何？

Cameron Adams: I still think I'm constantly growing, I'm constantly learning stuff.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：我仍然认为我在不断成长，我在不断学习东西。

I don't feel like I've achieved a ceiling or being a massive smash hit.

我不觉得自己已经达到了上限，也没有成为红极一时的人物。

We're always changing how we're doing things.

我们总是在改变我们做事的方式。

We're always doing things we've never done before and we feel totally like a fish out of water.

我们总是在做以前从未做过的事情，感觉就像一条离开水的鱼。

So yeah, I've achieved a few things personally, but I still feel like there's so much more to go.

所以，是的，我个人已经取得了一些成就，但我仍然觉得还有很多事情要做。

Lenny Rachitsky: That sounds right.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：听起来不错。

I want to talk about the flip side from the outside, like I described, it feels like Canva has just been this non-stop up into the right all win, all success, just killing it all the time.

我想从外部谈谈另一面，就像我所描述的那样，感觉 Canva 一直在不断地取得胜利，取得成功，一直在杀死它。

In reality, that's never actually the case.

事实上，事实并非如此。

It's often really helpful for people to hear a story of, okay, there's actually this moment of this may be all falling apart or a struggle for yourself.

人们听到这样的故事通常很有帮助，好吧，实际上这一刻可能是一切崩溃或为自己而奋斗。

Is there a moment that comes to mind of just like, "Oh, man, this was really scary and hard for me."?

是否有一个时刻会浮现在脑海中，“哦，伙计，这对我来说真的很可怕而且很难。”？

Cameron Adams: I think there's probably a few different stories that would resonate with your audience because there's like business kind of stories of how the actual company's tracking.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：我认为可能有一些不同的故事会引起观众的共鸣，因为有一些关于实际公司如何跟踪的商业故事。

There's product stories of stuff we launched that didn't go anywhere.

有些产品故事是我们推出的产品却没有任何进展。

There's team stories where you're dealing with people and all the different quirks that entails.

在团队故事中，你要与人打交道，以及随之而来的所有不同的怪癖。

I think I'll choose a business story.

我想我会选择一个商业故事。

There was a moment around our 100 million valuation mark where we were putting together around...

有一段时间，我们的估值约为 1 亿大关，我们正在围绕……进行整合。

We had a lot of existing investors who were really keen to invest.

我们有很多真正热衷于投资的现有投资者。

This is probably our third or our fourth round by this stage, and it was all looking good.

这可能是我们现阶段的第三轮或第四轮，一切看起来都不错。

There was a particular investor who was really to lead out.

有一位真正要带头的投资者。

We were fine with that.

我们对此很满意。

They were doing due diligence, got to the stage where every other investor in the round had signed on.

他们正在进行尽职调查，已经到了该轮所有其他投资者都已签约的阶段。

They were super excited.

他们非常兴奋。

They'd wired the money into our bank accounts already.

他们已经把钱汇入我们的银行账户了。

They'd signed all the long docs but lead investor.

他们签署了除主要投资者之外的所有长文件。

Cameron Adams: And about two days before they were due to sign and get all the money into our account, they came back and said, "Look, business is going great, but essentially we think we can get a better deal, so we're going to cut your valuation by 50%." It was a huge surprise and totally screwed up the entire round.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：大约在他们签字并将所有资金存入我们账户的前两天，他们回来说：“看，生意进展顺利，但本质上我们认为我们可以达成更好的交易，所以我们将把你们的估值削减 50%。”这是一个巨大的惊喜，并且完全搞砸了整个回合。

All the other investors were like, "What the hell are you doing?" My co-founders, Mel and Cliff, pretty much jumped on a plane that night to go to Silicon Valley, rallied around a whole bunch of other investors, found a new lead investor, took them about a week.

所有其他投资者都说：“你到底在做什么？”我的联合创始人梅尔和克里夫那天晚上几乎跳上飞机前往硅谷，召集了一大群其他投资者，找到了一位新的首席投资者，花了他们大约一周的时间。

This was the week right before Christmas.

这是圣诞节前一周。

It was incredibly stressful, incredibly tumultuous.

这是令人难以置信的压力，令人难以置信的混乱。

Cameron Adams: We eventually came out of it better.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：我们最终更好地摆脱了困境。

We actually got better terms on the deal that we came up with.

事实上，我们在达成的协议上得到了更好的条款。

That investor has fallen to the wayside now and it was a real learning moment for us in terms of how to approach fundraising and also how to be totally independent, and that's one of the reasons why we've focused on profitability for so long now.

这位投资者现在已经半途而废了，这对我们来说是一个真正的学习时刻，让我们了解如何进行融资以及如何完全独立，这也是我们长期以来专注于盈利能力的原因之一。

We've been profitable to spend the seven years and one of the reasons is that we never want to be put in the situation where we have to go to someone for money to ensure the survival of the business, and being profitable means that we never have to do that.

我们这七年来一直盈利，原因之一是我们不想陷入必须向别人要钱才能确保业务生存的境地，而盈利意味着我们永远不必这样做。

We can always do it on our own terms and in our own time.

我们总是可以按照自己的方式、在自己的时间里做到这一点。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by WorkOS.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 WorkOS 为您带来。

If you're building a SaaS app, at some point your customers will start asking for enterprise features like SAML authentication and SCIM provisioning.

如果您正在构建 SaaS 应用程序，那么您的客户有时会开始要求提供 SAML 身份验证和 SCIM 配置等企业功能。

That's where WorkOS comes in, making a fast and painless to add enterprise features to your app.

这就是 WorkOS 的用武之地，它可以快速、轻松地将企业功能添加到您的应用程序中。

Their APIs are easy to understand so that you can ship quickly and get back to building other features.

他们的 API 易于理解，因此您可以快速交付并继续构建其他功能。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today, hundreds of companies are already powered by WorkOS, including ones you probably know like Vercel, Webflow, and Loom.

Lenny Rachitsky：如今，数百家公司已经由 WorkOS 提供支持，其中包括您可能知道的 Vercel、Webflow 和 Loom 等公司。

WorkOS also recently acquired Warrant, the fine-grained authorization service.

WorkOS 最近还收购了细粒度授权服务 Warrant。

Warrant's product is based on a groundbreaking authorization system called Zanzibar, which was originally designed for Google to power Google Docs and YouTube.

Warrant 的产品基于名为 Zanzibar 的突破性授权系统，该系统最初是为 Google 设计的，旨在为 Google Docs 和 YouTube 提供支持。

This enables fast authorization checks at enormous scale while maintaining a flexible model that can be adapted to even the most complex use cases.

这可以实现大规模的快速授权检查，同时保持灵活的模型，甚至可以适应最复杂的用例。

If you're currently looking to build role-based access control or other enterprise features like single sign-on SCIM or user management, you should consider WorkOS.

如果您当前正在寻求构建基于角色的访问控制或其他企业功能（例如单点登录 SCIM 或用户管理），您应该考虑 WorkOS。

It's a drop-in replacement for Auth0 and supports up to one million monthly active users for free.

它是 Auth0 的直接替代品，免费支持多达 100 万月活跃用户。

Check it out at workos.com to learn more.

请访问 workos.com 以了解更多信息。

That's workos.com.

那是workos.com。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Attio, a radically new type of CRM.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Attio 为您带来，Attio 是一种全新类型的 CRM。

There's a world where your CRM is powerful, easily configured, and deeply intuitive.

在这个世界上，您的 CRM 功能强大、易于配置且非常直观。

Attio makes that a reality.

Attio 使这成为现实。

Attio is built specifically for the next era of companies.

Attio 专为下一代公司而构建。

It syncs with your data sources, easily configures to their unique structures, and works for any go-to-market motion from self-serve to sales-led.

它与您的数据源同步，轻松配置其独特的结构，并适用于从自助服务到销售主导的任何上市活动。

Attio automatically enriches your contacts, syncs your email calendar, gives you powerful reports, and lets you quickly build Zapier-style automations.

Attio 自动丰富您的联系人、同步您的电子邮件日历、为您提供强大的报告，并让您快速构建 Zapier 风格的自动化。

The next era of companies deserves more than an inflexible one-size-fits-all CRM, join modal, replicate 11 labs and more, and scale your startup to the next level.

下一个时代的公司需要的不仅仅是一个不灵活的一刀切的 CRM、加入模式、复制 11 个实验室等等，以及将您的初创企业扩展到下一个水平。

Head to attio.com/lenny and you'll get 15% off your first year.

访问 attio.com/lenny，第一年可享受 15% 的折扣。

That's A-T-T-I-O.com/lenny.

那是 A-T-T-I-O.com/lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: Something that I've heard from one of your investors actually will not be named is that at your board meetings, you have one slide on the financials of the business and then the rest of the deck is product updates, the roadmap.

Lenny Rachitsky：我从一位不愿透露姓名的投资者那里听到的一件事是，在董事会会议上，你有一张关于公司财务状况的幻灯片，然后剩下的就是产品更新和路线图。

I think this is very rare, especially for companies at your stage that become really focused on financials in the business from the CFO perspective and a lot of founders lose sight of the product.

我认为这种情况非常罕见，尤其是对于处于您这个阶段的公司来说，这些公司从首席财务官的角度真正关注业务中的财务状况，而许多创始人却忽视了产品。

Can you just talk about this element of how you all think about the product that's so central to the business?

您能谈谈你们对对业务至关重要的产品的看法吗？

Cameron Adams: I think one key thing is that we don't know it's very rare.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：我认为关键的一件事是我们不知道它非常罕见。

We approach a board meeting just like we do anything, we craft the experience about how we think it should be and how we think it's going to be useful.

我们参加董事会会议就像我们做任何事情一样，我们精心打造我们认为会议应该如何以及我们认为它将如何有用的经验。

So just like our board meetings or our product meetings or the way that we do launches, we have shaped that in the image that we want it to be and in the way that we think it's going to be most effective.

因此，就像我们的董事会会议或产品会议或我们发布产品的方式一样，我们按照我们希望的形象和我们认为最有效的方式塑造了它。

We've always been an incredibly product-led company.

我们一直是一家令人难以置信的以产品为主导的公司。

We always think first and foremost about the product.

我们始终首先考虑的是产品。

That was the whole genesis of Canva itself, having a product that we thought people would love to use and desperately needed to get out into the world and that's the lens that we approach everything through.

这就是 Canva 本身的整个起源，拥有一款我们认为人们会喜欢使用并且迫切需要走向世界的产品，这就是我们处理一切事物的视角。

Cameron Adams: In terms of board meetings, I think it's been very helpful that our financials and our growth have been amazing for so many years that we don't need to focus on it and we can just have that one slide with the graph going up and to the right.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：就董事会会议而言，我认为多年来我们的财务状况和增长令人惊叹，这非常有帮助，我们不需要关注它，我们可以只用一张幻灯片，将图表向上向右。

We've also attracted investors who believe in us and who understand that us driving product and getting as much product value out to our customers is probably the most important thing we can be doing.

我们还吸引了相信我们的投资者，他们明白我们推动产品发展并为客户提供尽可能多的产品价值可能是我们能做的最重要的事情。

So that's why the board meetings do focus on that because what we are launching in the product, what's ahead is really determining the success of the company.

这就是为什么董事会会议确实关注这一点，因为我们在产品中推出的内容以及未来的内容真正决定了公司的成功。

Obviously, financials are important and you can do a bunch of lever pulling and thinking about margins and all that kind of stuff, but product is at the end of the day the most important thing to Canva and the thing that's going to help us stand out and continue to have success.

显然，财务状况很重要，你可以进行一系列杠杆操作并考虑利润率和所有类似的东西，但最终产品对 Canva 来说是最重要的，它将帮助我们脱颖而出并继续取得成功。

Lenny Rachitsky: I really like this point you made about how you didn't know any better almost, and it reminds me of something else I heard about Canva.

Lenny Rachitsky：我真的很喜欢你所说的关于你几乎不了解的这一点，这让我想起了我听说过的有关 Canva 的其他事情。

It took you guys a long time to hire outside execs.

你们花了很长时间才聘请外部高管。

Almost all your leaders are homegrown and it took you a long time to even hire outside of Australia.

你们几乎所有的领导者都是本土培养的，甚至花了很长时间才从澳大利亚境外招聘。

Its even higher in the US.

在美国甚至更高。

Can you just talk about why that's been so important and just the impact that has come out of hiring people internally and helping people be promoted internally?

您能否谈谈为什么这如此重要以及内部招聘人员和帮助人员内部晋升所产生的影响？

Cameron Adams: One thing really focused on is team and culture.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：真正关注的一件事是团队和文化。

I think you can probably bring in the world's best person at X, Y, and Z, but if they're not fitting into your team and understanding your culture and have the same passion and vision that you do, they're not going to succeed.

我认为你可能可以在 X、Y 和 Z 方面引进世界上最优秀的人才，但如果他们不适合你的团队、不了解你的文化、不具有与你相同的热情和愿景，他们就不会成功。

So it's super important that we have people along with us for the ride and that might mean everyone at Canva is awesome.

因此，让有人陪伴我们是非常重要的，这可能意味着 Canva 的每个人都很棒。

They mightn't be the number one person in the world for that particular thing, but they get more done than the number one person could because they've built that trust and that safety with their team.

他们可能不是某件事情上的世界第一人，但他们比第一人做得更多，因为他们与团队建立了信任和安全感。

They know how to communicate their ideas, they know how to bring other people along with them and lay out a vision in the way that we understand it at Canva, and that is a critical thing to building a great company, I think, is having that alignment across everyone, across your product teams, across your marketing teams, across your customer happiness.

他们知道如何交流自己的想法，他们知道如何让其他人与他们一起并以我们在 Canva 理解的方式阐述愿景，我认为，建立一家伟大公司的关键是让每个人、产品团队、营销团队和客户幸福感保持一致。

Cameron Adams: They all need to be aligned and we all need to be rowing in the same direction.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：他们都需要保持一致，我们都需要朝着同一个方向划船。

We have brought in leaders, and some of them have been incredibly successful.

我们引进了领导者，其中一些人取得了令人难以置信的成功。

We have brought in leaders, and they've exited the company after a few months just because there wasn't that fit and they didn't manage to figure out or understand what Canva was and how to work within this big ecosystem.

我们引进了领导者，但几个月后他们就离开了公司，只是因为不合适，而且他们无法弄清楚或理解 Canva 是什么以及如何在这个大生态系统中工作。

Now we've got 4,500 employees now and it's not just a matter of you coming in and bringing all your ideas.

现在我们已经拥有 4,500 名员工，这不仅仅是您进来并提出您所有想法的问题。

You also need to work together with all the other leaders that we have and the team that's surrounding you.

您还需要与我们所有其他领导者以及您周围的团队合作。

Lenny Rachitsky: As a lens into what is important.

Lenny Rachitsky：作为观察重要事物的镜头。

Canva, when you say that they didn't understand what Canva is, what's something that doesn't click for people a lot of times that forces them to be exited potentially?

Canva，当你说他们不明白 Canva 是什么时，有什么东西经常不被人们所点击，迫使他们可能退出？

What is it that's so maybe unique or important to the way you all think about stuff?

是什么对你们思考事物的方式如此独特或重要？

Cameron Adams: I have this theory that the type of product you're building very much influences the way that you think, and this stemmed out of a chat I was having with one of the product leaders at Spotify.

Cameron Adams：我有一个理论，即你正在构建的产品类型很大程度上影响了你的思维方式，这源于我与 Spotify 的一位产品负责人的一次聊天。

And they said that at Spotify they do an incredible amount of talking about problems.

他们表示，在 Spotify，他们对问题进行了大量的讨论。

They'll have a meeting, they'll talk about this new product feature and they'll just hash it out through conversation.

他们将召开会议，讨论这个新产品功能，然后通过对话进行讨论。

And I imagined that that was because Spotify is a very auditory product.

我想那是因为 Spotify 是一款听觉产品。

Everyone there thinks about music, sound, podcasts, that is their mindset.

那里的每个人都思考音乐、声音、播客，这就是他们的心态。

At Canva, we're all about visual communications.

在 Canva，我们专注于视觉传达。

It's pitch decks, it's social media posts, it's video, it's t-shirts that you can make, and that's how we think about things in a very visual manner.

这是宣传材料、社交媒体帖子、视频、可以制作的 T 恤，这就是我们以非常直观的方式思考事物的方式。

Cameron Adams: So one of the things that's very particular about Canva is really setting visions.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：Canva 的一大特色就是设定愿景。

And I'm in visions, not just in the sense of looking forward two, three years, but also visions in the very visual sense.

我处于异象中，不仅仅是展望未来两三年，而且是视觉意义上的异象。

We need to be able to see it.

我们需要能够看到它。

We need mock-ups.

我们需要模型。

We need prototypes.

我们需要原型。

You need to get that idea out of your head and present it to someone in a visual form that helps you talk about and communicate about it.

你需要将这个想法从你的脑海中清除，并以视觉形式将其呈现给某人，以帮助你谈论和交流它。

That's one aspect of why some people I think don't land on their feet at Canva because they aren't necessarily visual thinkers and they don't end up communicating what they want to do in a visual way to the rest of people at Canva.

这就是为什么我认为有些人无法在 Canva 站稳脚跟的原因之一，因为他们不一定是视觉思考者，而且他们最终不会以视觉方式向 Canva 的其他人传达他们想要做的事情。

Cameron Adams: Another way is that the way that we've grown, the way that we've built product has been quite idiosyncratic over the years.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：另一种方式是，多年来我们的成长方式、我们构建产品的方式非常独特。

And as I said, we've learned so much just through doing and established our own processes.

正如我所说，我们通过实践学到了很多东西，并建立了自己的流程。

And I think in any system, if someone comes up from the outside with preconceived notions or this idea that they're an expert and tries to bring that in, it's going to be rejected.

我认为在任何系统中，如果有人从外部带着先入为主的观念或认为自己是专家的想法并试图将其引入，就会被拒绝。

So you really need to work together and I think the advice that I can give to people coming to Canva is just listen for a couple of months, figure out what is really working at Canva and why it works before you try and change it.

因此，你们确实需要共同努力，我认为我可以给来到 Canva 的人们的建议是，先倾听几个月，弄清楚什么是 Canva 真正有效的方法，以及为什么它有效，然后再尝试改变它。

We're very open to change and to new ideas, but just coming in wholesale and totally changing the process, just because that's what you've done somewhere else isn't going to get you the most level of success.

我们对变革和新想法非常开放，但只是大规模地进来并彻底改变流程，仅仅因为你在其他地方所做的事情并不会让你获得最大程度的成功。

Lenny Rachitsky: That makes so much sense.

Lenny Rachitsky：这很有道理。

We're talking about cultural elements and so I have one more question around culture.

我们正在谈论文化元素，所以我还有一个关于文化的问题。

I saw a video interview you did once about how you love this concept of giving away your Legos, that's part of your culture and the culture at Canva broadly potentially, and this was originally popularized by Molly Graham in this first round review article.

我看过你曾经做过的一个视频采访，内容是关于你如何喜欢赠送乐高积木的概念，这是你的文化和 Canva 文化的一部分，这最初是由 Molly Graham 在第一轮评论文章中推广的。

That's something you still believe in and if so, can you just describe that concept briefly because a lot of people haven't actually heard about this?

这是你仍然相信的事情，如果是这样，你能简单地描述一下这个概念吗？因为很多人实际上还没有听说过这个？

Cameron Adams: Yeah, Molly wrote a great article, which I actually refer everyone who joins Canva to in the cultural onboarding session, which I give them.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：是的，莫莉写了一篇很棒的文章，实际上我在我为 Canva 提供的文化入职会议中向所有加入 Canva 的人推荐了这篇文章。

So I run everyone through the culture at Canva and what they can expect over the next few years as they work here, and one of those sections is on giving away your Lego, and it's really important to us because part of being in a startup is scaling, when you're scaling from zero users to a million to a hundred million, and when you're scaling from three founders to 10 employees to 100 employees to 4,000 employees.

因此，我向每个人介绍了 Canva 的文化，以及他们在未来几年在这里工作的期望，其中一个部分是赠送你的乐高积木，这对我们来说非常重要，因为初创公司的一部分就是扩展，当你从零用户扩展到 100 万到 1 亿时，当你从 3 名创始人扩展到 10 名员工、100 名员工到 4,000 名员工时。

You're scaling everything from the product to the internal processes you have, the finance team paying people how you deal with user feedback.

您正在扩展从产品到内部流程的所有内容，财务团队向人员支付如何处理用户反馈的费用。

Everything's just constantly growing, growing, growing.

一切都在不断地生长、生长、生长。

And I think this is slightly different to a traditional job where you get good at the thing that you always do and you try and turn that into a process that just continually works all the time.

我认为这与传统工作略有不同，在传统工作中，你擅长做你一直做的事情，然后尝试将其变成一个始终持续有效的过程。

Cameron Adams: As a startup, you just have to be changing and we want people who are flexible, you can bring new ideas, you can go to that next level.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：作为一家初创公司，你只需要做出改变，我们需要灵活的员工，你可以带来新的想法，你可以进入下一个水平。

You can think about not just a million people, but 10 million people, 100 million people, a billion people using the product, and to constantly ratchet up that multiplier, you need to change yourself, which means that you probably need to give away some of the stuff that you're doing now in order to get to that next level.

你可以想象的不仅仅是一百万人，而是一千万人、一亿人、十亿人在使用该产品，为了不断提高这个乘数，你需要改变自己，这意味着你可能需要放弃一些你现在正在做的事情才能达到下一个水平。

If you're the first email copywriter at Canva, you can get away from writing all the emails for the first year maybe, but when you're writing emails for 100 million people in 190 different countries, in 100 different languages, all at different stages of their journey through using Canva from beginners to intermediates to experts, that just massively multiplies the complexity of the job that you have to do.

如果您是 Canva 的第一位电子邮件文案撰写者，您也许可以不用在第一年编写所有电子邮件，但是当您为 190 个不同国家/地区的 1 亿人使用 100 种不同语言编写电子邮件时，他们都处于使用 Canva 的不同阶段，从初学者到中级再到专家，这只会大大增加您必须完成的工作的复杂性。

And if you're trying to write every single one of those emails, you have no chance of scaling.

如果您尝试写每一封电子邮件，那么您就没有扩展的机会。

Cameron Adams: So you need to think about who you're going to bring in to help you, what systems you're going to introduce, what are the processes needed to get 100 different languages translated every time you send out an email and that requires you to hand off that stuff.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：所以你需要考虑一下你要找谁来帮助你，你要引入什么系统，每次你发出一封电子邮件时翻译 100 种不同语言需要什么流程，这需要你交出这些东西。

You need to maybe stop writing every single email, give that to someone else, be comfortable with doing that because you often build up a lot of self-identity and doing that and you get a lot of joy out of it.

你可能需要停止写每一封电子邮件，把它交给别人，并乐于这样做，因为你经常建立很多自我认同，并从中获得很多快乐。

That's why you're a writer in the first place.

这就是为什么你首先是一名作家。

But finding joy in the other things of building a team, passing on your experience, helping other people do great writing or great product building or great engineering is really what giving away your Lego is about.

但是，在组建团队、传递经验、帮助其他人完成出色的写作、出色的产品构建或出色的工程等其他事情中找到乐趣，才是赠送乐高的真正目的。

And we still encourage everyone to do that, to think about those moments where they need to level up in their impact, how they can bring their team along with them, how they can pass on their experience and help everyone really have a tremendous impact with the skills that they have.

我们仍然鼓励每个人都这样做，思考他们需要提升影响力的那些时刻，他们如何带领团队一起前进，他们如何传递他们的经验并帮助每个人真正利用他们所拥有的技能产生巨大的影响。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think a lot of people and a lot of companies struggle with this idea, and I'm curious if there's something you've learned about how to actually implement this.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为很多人和很多公司都在为这个想法而苦苦挣扎，我很好奇你是否已经学到了如何实际实施这个想法的东西。

Is it just like, "Hey, go read this article and then I might bring it up sometimes when things are changing and there's a reorg."?

是不是就像，“嘿，去读这篇文章，然后当事情发生变化并且进行重组时，我有时可能会提出来。”？

Or is there anything even deeper of just this is a cultural element of we are constantly giving up our Lego's giving things that we own?

或者还有什么更深层次的东西，这是我们不断放弃乐高给予我们拥有的东西的文化元素？

Cameron Adams: Probably the deeper thing I think is giving people opportunity so you can talk about growth than just say, "Please grow." That's not going to be terribly effective, but giving them the opportunity and the support to do so is super important.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：我认为更深层的事情可能是给人们机会，这样你就可以谈论成长，而不仅仅是说“请成长”。这不会非常有效，但为他们提供这样做的机会和支持非常重要。

We have a system we call coaching at Canva where you have a coach and they're constantly working with you to look at your skills, how you can improve each of those individual skills, but also what it is that you're actually doing and when it might be the time to move on to the next level.

我们在 Canva 有一个称为辅导的系统，您有一名教练，他们会不断地与您一起检查您的技能，了解您如何提高每一项个人技能，以及您实际在做什么以及何时可能进入下一个级别。

Say you are just doing a product role in this particular product and now you need to be a coach of other product managers and help build products.

假设您只是在这个特定产品中担任产品角色，现在您需要成为其他产品经理的教练并帮助构建产品。

Understanding those pivot points is really important and our coaches help everyone at Canva.

了解这些关键点非常重要，我们的教练会帮助 Canva 的每个人。

Everyone at Canva has a coach that is constantly thinking about this aspect of their personal growth.

Canva 的每个人都有一位教练不断思考他们个人成长的这一方面。

Cameron Adams: And finding those opportunities where you can push someone to do something that they haven't done before or to expand upon an idea that they've had and give them ownership of that idea is super important.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：找到那些机会，可以推动某人做一些他们以前没有做过的事情，或者扩展他们已有的想法，并让他们拥有该想法，这是非常重要的。

So when people do come to us with an amazing product idea or a feature that they want to build or an entire team that they think should be spun up, we really listen to them, and if it makes sense, we say, "Go and do that.

因此，当人们确实向我们提出了一个令人惊叹的产品创意或他们想要构建的功能或他们认为应该组建的整个团队时，我们会认真倾听他们的意见，如果有意义，我们会说，“去做吧。

Go and build that part of the product, grab a couple of people and start building video at Canva.

去构建产品的这一部分，找几个人开始在 Canva 上构建视频。

Do that thing that you're talking about." And I think if you give them the opportunity and a little push to go beyond what they think they're comfortable with right now, that is the best way to drive growth in your team.

做你说的那件事。”我认为，如果你给他们机会和一点推动力，让他们超越他们认为现在感到舒适的范围，那就是推动团队成长的最佳方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

There's two things I want to follow up on there.

我想跟进两件事。

One is this coaching concept.

一是这种教练理念。

I've never heard of this.

我从来没有听说过这个。

So how does that work?

那么它是如何运作的呢？

Do they have a manager and they have coach, and who is this coach?

他们有经理和教练吗？这位教练是谁？

Cameron Adams: We don't really have managers.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：我们实际上没有经理。

So your coach is the person who thinks about you in a specialty sense.

所以你的教练是一个从专业角度考虑你的人。

So we have specialties, engineering, product design, we got tens of different specialties across Canva, and your coach really helps..

所以我们有专业、工程、产品设计，我们在 Canva 上有数十个不同的专业，你的教练真的很有帮助。

Your coach is a similar specialty leads, so if you're a product manager, they're a product manager, so they know the skills that you have to use.

你的教练是类似的专业领导，所以如果你是产品经理，他们也是产品经理，所以他们知道你必须使用的技能。

They know the trajectory that you could possibly grow into.

他们知道你可能成长的轨迹。

They know the structures that are around Canva that you could slot into when you want to go to the next level.

他们知道 Canva 周围的结构，当你想进入下一个级别时，你可以将其插入。

And your coach constantly checks in with you, has sessions, might help you with the strategy doc, might have a one-on-one with you.

你的教练会不断地与你联系，召开会议，可能会帮助你制定策略文档，可能会与你进行一对一的交流。

They just constantly thinking about those ways that you can grow and improve at Canva.

他们只是不断思考你可以在 Canva 成长和提高的方法。

Cameron Adams: And then we have probably more of a, I would say, collegiate managerial circle of colleagues who help you who do 360 feedback, all that kind of stuff.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：我想说，我们可能有更多的大学管理同事圈子，他们可以帮助你做 360 度反馈，诸如此类的事情。

So that's the structure that we've arrived on and it's worked pretty well for us and it was driven actually by a formative coaching experience that we had as founders quite a few years ago from an external coach and we decided to bring that into Canva as a whole philosophy.

这就是我们已经形成的结构，它对我们来说效果很好，它实际上是由几年前我们作为创始人从外部教练那里获得的形成性指导经验所驱动的，我们决定将其作为一个整体理念带入 Canva 中。

Lenny Rachitsky: And these coaches, are they professional coaches or they're people in the company that are like, "I will be a coach for this function."?

Lenny Rachitsky：这些教练是专业教练还是公司里的人，他们会说“我将成为这个职位的教练”？

Cameron Adams: They're people in the company.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：他们是公司里的人。

So we've got probably close to 800 or 1,000 coaches now at Canva.

所以 Canva 现在可能有接近 800 或 1,000 名教练。

Cameron Adams: We do have very specific coaches who are just coaches and they can drop into any situation.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：我们确实有非常具体的教练，他们只是教练，他们可以适应任何情况。

They're not product managers, they're not designers, but they're relatively few.

他们不是产品经理，也不是设计师，但数量相对较少。

I think, we've got probably five of those type of coaches and they just work in very special situations, but what we're focused on is enabling the broader circle of coaches, so those 800 people to understand what it is to be a coach and have the skills of coaching.

我想，我们可能有五位这样的教练，他们只是在非常特殊的情况下工作，但我们的重点是让更广泛的教练圈子成为可能，让这 800 人了解什么是教练并拥有教练技能。

So we focus a lot on teaching them the skills of coaching, how to build a growth mindset in their coaches, all the skills that you need.

因此，我们非常注重教他们教练技能，如何在教练中建立成长心态，以及您需要的所有技能。

So yeah, it's a massive part of Canva.

是的，它是 Canva 的重要组成部分。

Lenny Rachitsky: And so there's a product management coach and this person helps all the PMs become better at the craft of product management.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以有一个产品管理教练，这个人帮助所有的 PM 提高产品管理的技巧。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, so interesting.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇，太有趣了。

Okay, and then the performance review piece, how does that work?

好的，然后是绩效评估部分，它是如何运作的？

Cameron Adams: Yeah.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：是的。

So your coach feeds into that, but we also do 360 feedback from all the people that you work with and we do that on regular cycles.

所以你的教练会对此进行反馈，但我们也会从所有与你一起工作的人那里得到 360 度的反馈，并且我们定期这样做。

As with everything at Canva, the cadence of those cycles has changed over the years, but now we do that every six months.

与 Canva 的一切一样，这些周期的节奏多年来一直在变化，但现在我们每六个月进行一次。

Lenny Rachitsky: We talked about product for a little bit.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们稍微讨论了一下产品。

I want to spend a little time on product management.

我想花一点时间在产品管理上。

I'm curious just how you think about product management.

我很好奇您如何看待产品管理。

There's this constant debate across tech companies about the value of PMs.

关于产品经理的价值，科技公司内部一直存在争论。

Are we better with more PMs?

PM 越多，我们是否会变得更好？

Are there too many PMs?

PM 太多了吗？

What do PMs do for you?

PM 为您做什么？

You're a chief product officer.

你是首席产品官。

Where do you find product managers bring the most value to Canva?

您认为产品经理在哪里为 Canva 带来了最大的价值？

And then do you just have thought on the future of the field of product management?

那么您是否想过产品管理领域的未来？

Cameron Adams: I don't know.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：我不知道。

It's one of those things that I don't want to quantify.

这是我不想量化的事情之一。

I don't want to put it in a box and say this is product management.

我不想把它放在一个盒子里并说这是产品管理。

Because I've worked at a few places now.

因为我现在已经在几个地方工作过。

I've actually only had one real job, which was at Google where I got to experience product managers the Google way.

事实上，我只有一份真正的工作，那就是在谷歌，在那里我以谷歌的方式体验产品经理。

And the way that they do product management is totally different to the way that we do it at Canva, and that's partially by design because I didn't want to do product management like they did at Google, and that's because of the different cultures that they have.

他们进行产品管理的方式与我们在 Canva 的方式完全不同，这部分是设计使然，因为我不想像他们在 Google 那样进行产品管理，这是因为他们拥有不同的文化。

Google's a fantastically engineering-driven culture and the way that they think about product management is mostly in the technical sense of like, "Here's a piece of technology, what can that technology do, how do we scale it?" At Canva, we focus a lot on experience and as I said before, it's a very visual experience, so we require a different product management process, but also a different product management mindset.

谷歌拥有一种极其工程驱动的文化，他们对产品管理的思考方式主要是技术意义上的，比如“这是一项技术，该技术能做什么，我们如何扩展它？”在 Canva，我们非常注重体验，正如我之前所说，这是一种非常视觉化的体验，因此我们需要不同的产品管理流程，也需要不同的产品管理思维。

Cameron Adams: I think we probably did that more from the ground up than a lot of other startups just because Mel and Cliff were a lot less, I think, inculcated into how product management has done other places.

卡梅伦·亚当斯（Cameron Adams）：我认为我们可能比许多其他初创公司从头开始做更多的事情，只是因为我认为梅尔和克利夫对产品管理在其他地方的做法的灌输要少得多。

I had a bit of experience from Google but was still fairly independent in my thinking, so we almost went back to first principles on how product management should be done, and to be honest, we didn't want to have the term product manager for a long, long time.

我在谷歌有过一些经验，但在思想上仍然相当独立，所以我们几乎回到了如何进行产品管理的首要原则，说实话，我们不想在很长一段时间内有产品经理这个词。

It wasn't until about year '06 or '07 where we actually had product managers, we decided to cave just because it was easier to explain to people.

直到大约 06 年或 07 年，我们才真正有了产品经理，我们决定屈服，因为这样更容易向人们解释。

Cameron Adams: But it also took us four or five years before we even had another product owner who wasn't us.

Cameron Adams：但我们也花了四五年时间才找到了另一个不是我们的产品负责人。

Part of that was us giving up our Lego, and I think we took a little too long to give up our Lego on that one, but the other part of it was us figuring out exactly what we wanted and how we built product and how to communicate that to someone else and get them to do it in a similar way and work with the teams in the way that we did.

其中一部分是我们放弃了我们的乐高积木，我认为我们花了太长时间才放弃我们的乐高积木，但另一部分是我们弄清楚我们到底想要什么，我们如何构建产品，以及如何与其他人沟通，让他们以类似的方式去做，并以我们的方式与团队合作。

Cameron Adams: For us, product managers are really connectives.

Cameron Adams：对我们来说，产品经理确实是连接者。

They connect the team, ideas, data, a whole bunch of different things, and it's very messy.

他们将团队、想法、数据以及一大堆不同的东西连接起来，这非常混乱。

There's no exact recipe for how to do it, but connecting these disparate areas and moving the team and the technology and our customers to a new place, a new vision is essentially what product managers do, and it's going to involve compromise, it's going to involve changes in the feature scope, it's going to involve timelines of like, "Okay, we can't ship it in May, it's going to have to be July.

如何做到这一点没有确切的秘诀，但是连接这些不同的领域并将团队、技术和我们的客户转移到一个新的地方，新的愿景本质上是产品经理所做的事情，它将涉及妥协，它将涉及功能范围的变化，它将涉及诸如“好吧，我们不能在五月发布它，它必须在七月。

Let's figure out what we can do with marketing to make that work." This constant movement and connection and reorienting around the constraints that have suddenly arisen in the last week, and that's where we see great product managers operating in Canva.

让我们弄清楚我们可以通过营销做些什么来实现这一目标。”这种不断的移动、联系以及围绕上周突然出现的限制的重新定位，这就是我们在 Canva 中看到优秀产品经理的地方。

Lenny Rachitsky: You mentioned Mel and Cliff.

Lenny Rachitsky：你提到了梅尔和克里夫。

For folks that don't know, they're the other two co-founders of Canva and they were dating when they were starting Canva, I think it was called Fusion Books back in the day before Canva.

对于那些不知道的人来说，他们是 Canva 的另外两位联合创始人，他们在创办 Canva 时就在约会，我想在 Canva 的前一天，它被称为 Fusion Books。

Now, they're married.

现在，他们结婚了。

What's it like working with a married couple as the other two co-founders, and is there something they did well that didn't make you feel like this third wheel person that isn't married to them?

作为另外两位联合创始人，与一对已婚夫妇一起工作感觉如何？他们在哪些方面做得很好，但没有让你觉得自己像一个未与他们结婚的电灯泡？

Cameron Adams: It is always tricky working with a couple because they're on it 24/7.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：与情侣一起工作总是很棘手，因为他们需要 24/7 全天候工作。

When you leave the office and they head home, they're still talking about product, business strategy, all the things.

当你离开办公室，他们回家时，他们仍然在谈论产品、业务策略以及所有的事情。

I think they've done a really good job of evolving those ideas overnight through the conversations they have and over dinner and walking, but then bringing that back the next day and being transparent about that and that's super important.

我认为他们做得非常好，通过他们的谈话、晚餐和散步，在一夜之间发展了这些想法，但第二天又把它带回来，并对此保持透明，这是非常重要的。

If you are working in that kind of dynamic.

如果你在那种充满活力的环境中工作。

There are definitely moments where I have missed out on a memo and stuff has rapidly proceeded, and I think I've just gotten used to that and gotten used to catching up really quickly, having a word with them on the side to clarify what the motivation is here and just constantly maintaining that alignment.

肯定有一些时刻我错过了一份备忘录，而事情却在迅速进展，我想我已经习惯了这一点，并且习惯了快速赶上，在旁边与他们交谈以澄清这里的动机是什么，并不断保持这种一致性。

Cameron Adams: And I think it happens in any partnership or team.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：我认为这种情况发生在任何合作伙伴或团队中。

There's moments where there's small alignments, there's more tectonic stuff that happens over months or years, and you need to realign at some stage.

有时会出现一些小的调整，几个月或几年内会发生更多的构造性的事情，你需要在某个阶段重新调整。

I think it happens with friendships, it happens with my wife, it happens with our product teams.

我认为这发生在友谊中，发生在我的妻子身上，发生在我们的产品团队中。

There's always these moments where you need to re-communicate things and relay the land of it.

总有一些时刻你需要重新沟通事物并传递它的土地。

And I think we've been great at doing that as co-founders even for the small things and also for the more tectonic things.

我认为，作为联合创始人，我们非常擅长做到这一点，即使是在小事情上，也包括在更重要的事情上。

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访问vanta.com/lenny，可享受 Vanta 立减 1,000 美元的优惠。

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Lenny Rachitsky: I'm going to go back to the beginning of Canva.

Lenny Rachitsky：我要回到 Canva 的开始。

I know that it took you guys a year of building before you launched it, so it took you a year to build the MVP essentially.

我知道你们在推出它之前花了一年的时间来构建它，所以你们基本上也花了一年的时间来构建 MVP。

And I know you have some strong opinions on how long to wait, how MVPs are often way too early.

我知道您对等待多长时间以及 MVP 通常为时过早有一些强烈的看法。

Can you talk about that just why you guys waited so long before launching clearly worked out and so I'm just curious your lessons from that experience.

你能谈谈为什么你们等了这么久才开始明确地解决问题吗？所以我很好奇你从这次经历中得到的教训。

Cameron Adams: Yeah, so when we launched or when we were building the Lean Startup book came out, so that was all anyone talked to us about investors, other people building products, trying to give us advice.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：是的，所以当我们推出或当我们构建《精益创业》一书时，这就是所有与我们谈论投资者、其他人构建产品、试图给我们建议的人。

They were like, "Just get something out the door, as crappy as it is just to get in front of users." I think, for us, the product is the experience and giving people a great experience is an intrinsic part of the product.

他们的反应是，“只是把一些东西推出去，尽管只是在用户面前展示是很糟糕的。”我认为，对我们来说，产品就是体验，为人们提供良好的体验是产品的内在组成部分。

It's also an intrinsic part of how we've grown.

这也是我们成长的内在组成部分。

People having a good experience of being enthusiastic about it has been how we've spread the word of Canva and organic word-of-mouth growth was the biggest driver of Canva's growth for many years and probably still is, I think.

人们对其充满热情的良好体验一直是我们传播 Canva 的方式，而有机口碑增长是 Canva 多年来增长的最大推动力，我认为可能仍然如此。

People just telling someone else to jump on this amazing product, I don't think we would've had that if we just put our pretty crappy product that people didn't have joy in using.

人们只是告诉其他人使用这个令人惊叹的产品，我认为如果我们只是推出人们不喜欢使用的相当蹩脚的产品，我们就不会拥有这样的产品。

Sure, it might've got the job done, but if they weren't excited about using it the next day, then that wasn't a bar that we wanted to hit.

当然，它可能已经完成了工作，但如果他们对第二天使用它不感兴趣，那么这不是我们想要达到的目标。

Cameron Adams: So we did hold off on launching the product for a long time and investors did ask us many, many times, "When are you launching?

卡梅伦·亚当斯：所以我们确实推迟了很长一段时间推出该产品，投资者也确实多次问我们，“你们什么时候推出？

Can you just get this thing out the door?" But we had done enough research, we knew the problem space, we knew what people wanted from the product.

你能把这东西搬到门外吗？”但我们已经做了足够的研究，我们知道问题所在，我们知道人们想要从产品中得到什么。

Part of that was due to the work that Mel and Cliff did on Fusion Books in a very constrained area.

部分原因是梅尔和克里夫在非常有限的区域内对 Fusion Books 所做的工作。

They had looked at school yearbooks, they had built an experience for that, and they had observed what worked didn't work and how they might scale that into a bigger product.

他们查看了学校年鉴，为此积累了经验，他们观察到哪些有效的方法无效，以及如何将其扩展为更大的产品。

It also worked for me who'd worked in a lot of creative tools and built a lot of creative tools over the previous 15 years.

它也对我有用，因为我在过去 15 年里使用过很多创意工具并构建了很多创意工具。

So I had a lot of understanding of how people interacted with these systems and the experience that we wanted to build.

因此，我对人们如何与这些系统交互以及我们想要构建的体验有了很多了解。

Cameron Adams: So we did hold off and the product we launched launched, we obviously weren't happy with.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：所以我们确实推迟了，我们推出的产品推出了，我们显然对此并不满意。

You have to launch something that you're not completely happy with, all the rough edges, but you're releasing it knowing that the rough edges are going to be outweighed by the joyful experience.

你必须推出一些你并不完全满意的东西，所有的粗糙边缘，但你在发布它时知道，快乐的体验将超过粗糙的边缘。

We still did a ton of user testing, right?

我们仍然进行了大量的用户测试，对吧？

It's not like we just launched this thing blind and said, "We hope people like it." We did a ton of user testing.

我们并不是盲目地推出这个东西并说：“我们希望人们喜欢它。”我们做了大量的用户测试。

We did a ton of user research into the features that people wanted, and we built that up over time.

我们对人们想要的功能进行了大量的用户研究，并随着时间的推移逐渐建立起来。

And one year to me actually seems like short time, a lot of people think it's a long time, but one year was just enough for us to scrape in with an experience that people did truly love when we launched, and particularly the market that we went after when we launched really loved it.

一年对我来说实际上似乎很短，很多人认为这是很长的时间，但一年的时间足以让我们勉强获得人们在我们推出时真正喜欢的体验，尤其是我们推出时所追求的市场非常喜欢它。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm curious just what advice you share with founders when they're asking you how joyous does this first version have to be?

Lenny Rachitsky：我很好奇，当创始人问你第一个版本必须有多快乐时，你会与他们分享什么建议？

How awesome does my MVP need to be?

我的 MVP 需要有多出色？

One thread I picked up as you were describing your experiences, you all had deep experience in this space, so you knew what you wanted to build.

当你们描述自己的经历时，我注意到了一条线索，你们在这个领域都有丰富的经验，所以你们知道自己想要构建什么。

It wasn't like this dark forest of exploration is like we know what we want generally.

这并不是说我们一般都知道自己想要什么，这就是探索的黑暗森林。

Do you have advice you share with founders of how awesome their MVP should be and when it's worth spending a year or two or three building it?

您是否可以与创始人分享关于他们的 MVP 应该有多棒以及什么时候值得花一年、两年或三年来构建它的建议？

Cameron Adams: There's a couple of points in there.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：其中有几点。

First is that even today we build for ourselves, and I think this is advice that probably a lot of product people wouldn't give you is that you shouldn't build for yourself, you should build for your customer.

首先，即使在今天，我们也是为自己构建的，我认为这是很多产品人员可能不会给你的建议，即你不应该为自己构建，你应该为你的客户构建。

But I think we're fortunate that we are our customer and that the problems we experience are the problems that hundreds of millions, billions of people experience.

但我认为我们很幸运，我们是我们的客户，我们遇到的问题也是数亿、数十亿人遇到的问题。

I think that is maybe a fortunate part of just the problem area that we're interested in, but it has enabled us to move really quickly on the product because we can quickly know what's working in the product, whether this feature is useful, whether it's reached that bar of a great experience.

我认为这可能是我们感兴趣的问题领域的幸运部分，但它使我们能够在产品上快速推进，因为我们可以快速了解产品中哪些功能有效，该功能是否有用，是否达到了出色体验的标准。

Cameron Adams: So that's one aspect of it and I think that is also about being passionate, you entering an area that you are extremely passionate about.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：这是一方面，我认为这也与充满激情有关，你进入一个你非常热衷的领域。

I often hear people are like, "I want to do a tech startup.

我经常听到人们说，“我想创办一家科技初创公司。

What is the best area I should focus on to build a product in?" And to me, that is totally the wrong way to go about building a company that you're going to spend the next 10, 20 years in because if you're in an area that you are particularly passionate about but you see the opportunity to make a bit of money or have some external measure of success, that is a terrible way to go about being a founder because you're going to hit these rock bottom dark places and if the passion isn't driving you through that, you're going to have an incredibly hard time getting to the next step.

我应该重点关注哪个领域来构建产品？”对我来说，这完全是错误的方式来建立一家你将在未来 10、20 年里投入的公司，因为如果你身处一个你特别热衷的领域，但你看到了赚点钱的机会，或者有一些外部的成功衡量标准，那么作为一名创始人，这是一种糟糕的方式，因为你将触及这些谷底的黑暗地方，如果激情不能推动你度过难关，那么你将很难进入下一个目标。步骤。

So that's probably the first area I talk about in terms of knowing when a product is amazing.

因此，这可能是我谈论的第一个领域，即了解产品何时令人惊叹。

Cameron Adams: The second one is that it really needs to spark, joy, and delight in people and just pure excitement.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：第二个是它确实需要激发人们的火花、欢乐和喜悦，并且只是纯粹的兴奋。

It can't just be like, "Oh, yeah, this is a useful tool for me." It needs to light up their eyes.

它不能只是这样，“哦，是的，这对我来说是一个有用的工具。”它需要照亮他们的眼睛。

They need to be like, "How do I sign up for this thing tomorrow?

他们需要这样说：“我明天如何报名参加这个活动？

How do I get it?

我怎样才能得到它？

How do I pay for it?" And they need to want to talk to other people about it because in the early days of your startup, you don't have marketing dollars, you don't have channels which you can go to immediately get access to a million people.

我该如何付款？”他们需要与其他人谈论这件事，因为在你的初创公司的早期，你没有营销资金，你没有可以立即接触到一百万人的渠道。

You need to really foster the first people that are going to use your product and they're going to be the ones that are going to spread it and they're going to set the foundations for your growth.

你需要真正培养第一批使用你的产品的人，他们将成为传播产品的人，他们将为你的成长奠定基础。

Lenny Rachitsky: Interesting.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：有趣。

So piece of advice number one is work on something you really want yourself that you're excited to work on.

因此，第一条建议是做一些你真正想要的、你很乐意做的事情。

Two is get it to a place where it lights up people's eyes.

二是把它放到让人眼前一亮的地方。

They're just so excited with this thing.

他们对这件事感到非常兴奋。

For that second bar, what was it for Canva?

第二个酒吧是 Canva 的什么？

Was it just that it was impossible to do this design in a browser?

难道只是在浏览器中无法进行这种设计吗？

Cameron Adams: It was 2012, 2013 when we launched and visual content was still in its infancy.

Cameron Adams：我们推出时是 2012 年、2013 年，视觉内容仍处于起步阶段。

Instagram had only been out a couple of years.

Instagram 才问世几年。

Pinterest was on the rise.

Pinterest 呈上升趋势。

People were just getting used to creating visuals and it was hived off to a very select few because to create those visuals you needed to afford some expensive software, know how to use that expensive software, nowhere to go to get fonts and photos and illustrations, know how to put that together into something that looked decent and then ship that off.

人们刚刚习惯了创建视觉效果，它被分给了极少数人，因为要创建这些视觉效果，你需要买得起一些昂贵的软件，知道如何使用昂贵的软件，无处可去获得字体、照片和插图，知道如何将它们组合成看起来不错的东西，然后将其发货。

It was something that only 1% of the world could do and democratizing design, empowering the world to design is Canva's entire mission, and we saw this sweet spot at the time in social media.

这是世界上只有 1% 的人能做到的事情，而设计民主化、赋予世界设计能力是 Canva 的全部使命，我们当时在社交媒体上看到了这个甜蜜点。

It wasn't what we set out to go after.

这不是我们想要追求的。

We set out to democratize design to bring design to literally everyone in the world and to everything that they're doing.

我们着手实现设计民主化，将设计带给世界上的每个人以及他们所做的一切。

Cameron Adams: But through the user testing that we did, through the levels of excitement that we saw from different people, social media managers really came to the fore at that time.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：但是通过我们所做的用户测试，通过我们从不同的人那里看到的兴奋程度，社交媒体经理当时确实脱颖而出。

So we knew that they really fit what we could ship right now.

所以我们知道它们确实适合我们现在可以运送的产品。

We didn't ship a presentation product or a T-shirt builder in our very first version.

在我们的第一个版本中，我们没有提供演示产品或 T 恤制作工具。

We shipped a thing that could make square landscape and portrait graphics and blog post graphics, and that got a particular segment of society excited.

我们推出了一款可以制作方形横向和纵向图形以及博客文章图形的东西，这让社会的特定部分感到兴奋。

We added on all the things afterwards because that was part of vision and ultimately what we wanted to build.

我们后来添加了所有的东西，因为这是愿景的一部分，也是我们最终想要构建的东西。

But with a team of 10 people in the space of a year, building something that really got social media managers excited was what we could pull off.

但是，对于一个由 10 人组成的团队来说，我们可以在一年的时间内打造出真正让社交媒体经理兴奋的东西。

And that's something we realized in the last six months of that launch year.

这是我们在发布当年的最后六个月中意识到的事情。

We didn't quite know who our audience was going to be.

我们不太知道我们的观众是谁。

We knew it was a tool that anyone could use, but in that last six months of user testing and refining is when we really identified that first target market and we just leant into it.

我们知道这是一个任何人都可以使用的工具，但在过去六个月的用户测试和改进中，我们真正确定了第一个目标市场，并且我们只是倾向于它。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's so many things you all nailed early on.

Lenny Rachitsky：你们很早就确定了很多事情。

One of them is the focus persona/ICP, which is you said social media managers.

其中之一是焦点人物/ICP，即您所说的社交媒体经理。

Just to take the lesson from that, you basically saw that segment getting the most excited about the product and that told you, let's focus on this group.

只是为了吸取教训，您基本上看到该细分市场对该产品最感兴趣，这告诉您，让我们关注这个群体。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: And was it like an order magnitude more excited?

Lenny Rachitsky：是不是更兴奋了一个数量级？

What do people look for there that tells them, "This is the one."?

人们在那里寻找什么来告诉他们“就是这个”？

What did you see there other than just more excitement?

除了更多的兴奋之外，你还看到了什么？

Cameron Adams: It was just incredibly emotive language, like sheer joy.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：这只是令人难以置信的情感语言，就像纯粹的快乐一样。

Particularly coming into the product, we worked a lot on the onboarding process in the last couple of months of launch and that was really pivotal because the product features were there.

特别是在产品方面，我们在发布的最后几个月中在入职流程上做了很多工作，这非常关键，因为产品功能就在那里。

You could add text, you could add images, you can change the color of things, you can move stuff around the page.

您可以添加文本，可以添加图像，可以更改事物的颜色，可以在页面上移动内容。

It was a simple but powerful product, but there was this thing holding people back from actually using it and understanding what Canva could do for them.

这是一个简单但功能强大的产品，但有一个问题阻碍了人们实际使用它并理解 Canva 可以为他们做什么。

And when user tested the onboarding of Canva a ton, actually usertesting.com had just launched them, which really unlocked us because we didn't have to do these big formal labs or anything like that.

当用户对 Canva 的加入进行大量测试时，实际上 usertesting.com 刚刚启动了它们，这确实让我们解锁了，因为我们不需要做这些大型的正式实验室或类似的事情。

We could just go online and get results in the space of half an hour.

我们只需上网，半小时内就能得到结果。

So that was like a pivotal unlock for our product process and that's something we still employ today.

因此，这就像我们产品流程的关键解锁，也是我们今天仍在使用的东西。

Cameron Adams: And through that, we tailored the onboarding process to get people excited and to understand the deeper goal with Canva and the deeper impact it could let them have.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：通过这一点，我们定制了入职流程，让人们感到兴奋，并了解 Canva 的更深层次目标以及它可以让他们产生的更深层次的影响。

It wasn't just about letting them put a pretty picture on the page, it really unlocked their ideas and let them do things they couldn't do before.

这不仅仅是让他们在页面上放一张漂亮的图片，它真正释放了他们的想法，让他们做以前做不到的事情。

And we shaped the onboarding to do that and it resonated the most with social media managers because they had this massive content need that they couldn't really service.

我们设计了入职流程来做到这一点，这与社交媒体经理产生了最大的共鸣，因为他们有如此巨大的内容需求，但他们无法真正满足。

And in the first minute of Canva with the right onboarding, it just unlocked the whole realm of productivity and impact that they didn't have before and that's why they got super excited.

在 Canva 的第一分钟，通过正确的入职培训，它刚刚释放了他们以前没有的生产力和影响力的整个领域，这就是为什么他们感到非常兴奋。

Lenny Rachitsky: We talk a lot on this podcast about the power of onboarding and the impact that can have on retention and everything down funnel.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们在这个播客上谈论了很多关于入职的力量以及它对留存率和漏斗中的一切的影响。

Do you remember what the unlock was in terms of and getting more people activated?

您还记得解锁是为了让更多人激活吗？

Is there anything that's something that other people can learn from?

有什么值得其他人学习的吗？

Cameron Adams: For us, it was taking that first step, particularly with Canva and any I think creative tool.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：对我们来说，这是迈出了第一步，特别是使用 Canva 和我认为的任何创意工具。

There's a real fear of the blank page.

人们真的很害怕空白页。

So prior to any onboarding thought from us, we had a blank page.

因此，在我们提出任何入职想法之前，我们有一个空白页。

We had a few coach marks that said, "Here's where you do this, here's where you do this." And then they'd be left on this blank page and people would freak out.

我们有一些教练标记，上面写着：“这是你做这个的地方，这是你做这个的地方。”然后他们就会被留在这个空白页上，人们会吓坏了。

So what we really focused on was just taking that first step and then the next step and then the next step.

所以我们真正关注的是迈出第一步，然后是下一步，然后是下一步。

And before they knew it, they built a design.

在他们意识到之前，他们已经完成了设计。

And the way that we did that was to encourage a really simple step.

我们这样做的方式是鼓励采取非常简单的步骤。

So the first one was click on this search box and search for a monkey.

所以第一个是点击这个搜索框并搜索猴子。

It literally said that.

它确实是这么说的。

Cameron Adams: Searching for a monkey is something you probably don't do in most tools.

Cameron Adams：在大多数工具中，您可能不会做寻找猴子的事情。

So it was a little surprising, which was a good inroad, but it was still super easy.

所以这有点令人惊讶，这是一个很好的进步，但它仍然非常简单。

Anyone can type monkey.

任何人都可以输入猴子。

And then you type that in, it comes up with this whole sway the monkey images, which look hilarious, and just dragging one of those out onto a page is another simple step.

然后你输入它，它就会出现整个摇摆的猴子图像，看起来很搞笑，只需将其中一个拖到页面上就是另一个简单的步骤。

And we just got people to walk through that keeping their interest up, keeping the bar of effort quite low, but within three or four steps, they'd built up something that they'd never been able to do before, and it surprised them.

我们只是让人们通过这个过程来保持他们的兴趣，保持相当低的努力标准，但在三到四步之内，他们就建立了一些他们以前从未做过的事情，这让他们感到惊讶。

The words that we literally got out of years at testing were, I didn't know I could be a designer.

我们从多年的测试中得到的一句话是，我不知道我可以成为一名设计师。

And that was what we managed to do through several rounds of refinement on the onboarding process.

这就是我们通过对入职流程进行多轮改进而设法做到的。

It is lowering the barriers to entry and also increasing the amount of delight, and I think those two things are what you should be aiming for with your onboarding.

它降低了进入门槛，也增加了乐趣，我认为这两件事是你入职时应该追求的目标。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's an incredible insight.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个令人难以置信的洞察力。

Is there a video of that original onboarding out there or is the current one still similar?

是否有原始的入门视频，或者当前的视频是否仍然相似？

Cameron Adams: The current one isn't similar.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：当前的情况并不相似。

We have constantly gone back to it because it performs really well.

我们不断地回归它，因为它的性能非常好。

We do actually apply the same approach of little steps building up into bigger accomplishments, and that's actually rolled out through our last round of launches for the last couple of years through something we call learn and play.

实际上，我们确实采用了同样的方法，即从小的步骤积累成更大的成就，这实际上是在过去几年的最后一轮发布中通过我们所谓的“学习和玩耍”而推出的。

So with every launch that we do now, we think about how to teach people about that feature and how to get them really involved in it.

因此，随着我们现在所做的每一次发布，我们都会考虑如何向人们传授该功能以及如何让他们真正参与其中。

We have a whole series of learn and plays where when we launch AI photo editing, they can try it out right then and there.

我们有一系列的学习和玩法，当我们推出人工智能照片编辑时，他们可以立即尝试。

They've got some great content that they can immediately operate on, and it's a super simple step for them to type in a prompt and see the result of that.

他们拥有一些可以立即操作的精彩内容，对于他们来说，输入提示并查看结果是一个超级简单的步骤。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think an interesting and really important takeaway here is you built a very delightful, incredible, innovative product, but it still didn't work until you figured out the onboarding and that you needed to figure out the persona to focus on.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这里一个有趣且非常重要的收获是，您构建了一个非常令人愉快、令人难以置信的创新产品，但在您弄清楚入职流程以及您需要弄清楚要关注的角色之前，它仍然无法发挥作用。

All those things end up being incredibly important, it's not just build something amazing and delightful.

所有这些事情最终变得非常重要，它不仅仅是构建一些令人惊奇和令人愉快的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: Staying within this realm of growth, you've grown in large part thanks to this incredibly SEO template strategy.

Lenny Rachitsky：保持在这个增长领域，你的成长在很大程度上要归功于这个令人难以置信的 SEO 模板策略。

You mentioned in interview there's this guy, Andre that came on early and helped you figure this stuff out.

你在采访中提到有一个人，安德烈，他很早就出现并帮助你解决了这个问题。

Is that true?

这是真的吗？

And if so, what was the key insight that he had that led to such a great success in terms of growth for you all?

如果是这样，他的关键洞察力是什么，使你们在成长方面取得了如此巨大的成功？

Cameron Adams: Andre is an amazing guy.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：安德烈是一个了不起的人。

He's actually been in and out of Canva three or four times now.

事实上，他现在已经进出 Canva 三四次了。

Cameron Adams: Yeah, keep pulling him back.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：是的，继续把他拉回来。

We originally found him, he came from a startup that was going under here in Sydney.

我们最初找到他时，他来自悉尼一家正在破产的初创公司。

We had thought about SEO.

我们曾经考虑过SEO。

We knew it was this thing that you could use, and I think in a couple of our pitch decks, we had SEO as a whole growth channel that we were going to execute upon in order for investors to make a ton of money, but we pretty much knew nothing about it.

我们知道这是你可以使用的东西，我认为在我们的一些宣传材料中，我们将 SEO 作为一个整体增长渠道，我们将执行该渠道以便投资者赚很多钱，但我们对此几乎一无所知。

And it was sitting away in our backlog of things to do in the first couple of years of Canva.

在 Canva 的最初几年里，它一直存在于我们积压的待办事项中。

And we came across Andre and he just really crystallized what SEO was and how it would actually help us grow.

我们遇到了安德烈，他真正具体化了搜索引擎优化是什么以及它如何真正帮助我们成长。

So we brought him on, he rolled out his strategy and it was fantastically effective.

所以我们聘请了他，他推出了他的策略，并且非常有效。

It was also incredibly cheap, and it was super easy for us to do ourselves.

它也非常便宜，而且我们自己做起来非常容易。

Cameron Adams: He set up a whole team of people who looked at people's motivations and the top jobs to be done that Canva could service.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：他建立了一个完整的团队，研究人们的动机以及 Canva 可以服务的首要工作。

He then mapped that through the entire experience of going into Google, typing a search query, getting that search query, seeing that it was a great result, firstly getting to the top result, but then also the experience after they landed on Canva.

然后，他通过进入 Google、输入搜索查询、获取搜索查询、看到这是一个很好的结果、首先到达顶部结果以及登陆 Canva 后的整个体验来映射这一点。

So if they searched for want to make a Halloween poster, the top Google result would be Canva.

因此，如果他们搜索想要制作万圣节海报，Google 的顶部结果将是 Canva。

They'd click on it, they'd land on the Halloween poster landing page.

他们点击它，就会到达万圣节海报登陆页面。

It would tell them how they were going to do, it show you how the product was going to do that, have a button there that immediately took them into a Halloween poster template, went through a fantastic onboarding of customizing that poster really simply, and then they would hit done, download the image, and they had a fantastic experience and he thought through that whole end-to-end flow from first landing on Google and typing into the search box through to that magic moment where they're like, "Canva just helped me do something amazing and I want to do it again."

它会告诉他们他们将如何做，它向你展示产品将如何做到这一点，那里有一个按钮，立即将他们带入万圣节海报模板，经历了一个非常简单的定制海报的奇妙入门，然后他们会点击完成，下载图像，他们有一个奇妙的体验，他思考了从第一次登陆谷歌到在搜索框中输入到那个神奇时刻的整个端到端流程，他们就像，“Canva刚刚帮助我做了一些令人惊奇的事情，我想做一些事情再来一次。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

So a few things I'm hearing there.

我在那里听到了一些事情。

One is figure out the jobs to be done of potential users, figuring out where their search volume, figure out ones you can actually solve for them, like say a Halloween poster, and then think about that experience end to end from search to landing.

一是弄清楚潜在用户要完成的工作，弄清楚他们的搜索量在哪里，找出你实际上可以为他们解决的工作，比如万圣节海报，然后考虑从搜索到登陆的端到端体验。

And obviously, you have to deliver on that promise.

显然，你必须兑现这一承诺。

You have to actually show them a really cool Halloween poster that they can create, right?

你必须实际向他们展示一张他们可以制作的非常酷的万圣节海报，对吧？

Cameron Adams: Yeah.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：是的。

Again, it's like product led truly means product led because you can't just SEO the hell out of something that is a terrible experience.

再说一遍，产品主导确实意味着产品主导，因为你不能仅仅通过 SEO 来摆脱糟糕的体验。

So tying that experience at the end of the SEO journey is just as important as the technicalities of SEO itself, and Andre really harnessed the whole spectrum of that to produce the end experience, which ultimately ended up with an active user having a delightful experience.

因此，在 SEO 旅程结束时将这种体验与 SEO 本身的技术细节联系起来同样重要，Andre 确实利用了整个范围来产生最终体验，最终让活跃用户获得了愉快的体验。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there anything else along those lines that was really surprising to you or really, wow, that worked a lot better than I thought because it's probably one of the most well executed, most successful SEO strategies in history.

Lenny Rachitsky：还有其他什么事情让你感到非常惊讶，或者真的，哇，比我想象的要好得多，因为它可能是历史上执行得最好、最成功的 SEO 策略之一。

And I'm so curious, just if there's anything else there that's just like, "Oh, wow, that was really effective and I didn't expect that."

我很好奇，是否还有其他类似的东西，“哦，哇，这真的很有效，我没想到会这样。”

Cameron Adams: There's a ton in the SEO realm that Andre drove that can get quite technical.

Cameron Adams：Andre 推动的 SEO 领域有很多技术性很强的内容。

But I think one of the other pivotal growth moments for us was internationalization.

但我认为我们的另一个关键增长时刻之一是国际化。

I think as an Australian company, we're fortunate in that Australia isn't a great market to focus on.

我认为作为一家澳大利亚公司，我们很幸运，因为澳大利亚并不是一个值得关注的大市场。

We've got 25 million people here.

我们这里有 2500 万人。

It's okay, but it's not sizeable.

还可以吧，不过规模不大。

It's not going to make you a huge success.

它不会让你取得巨大的成功。

Whereas probably a startup that starts in the US will tend to focus on the US because it's a huge monetizable market, and you can entirely create a great company that just services the US.

而在美国起步的初创公司可能会倾向于专注于美国，因为这是一个巨大的可货币化市场，你完全可以创建一家只为美国服务的伟大公司。

But from Australia, we needed to think about the world.

但在澳大利亚，我们需要思考世界。

And that meant that we very quickly got into internationalization.

这意味着我们很快就进入了国际化。

Cameron Adams: We started localizing and internationalizing our products three years after launch, which is quite early compared to a lot of other companies.

Cameron Adams：我们的产品推出三年后就开始本地化和国际化，与许多其他公司相比，这是相当早的。

And we tackled it with real vigor.

我们以真正的活力解决了这个问题。

We had a goal of being in five different languages within the first year of localization, and we actually hit eight in that first year.

我们的目标是在本地化的第一年提供五种不同的语言，而我们实际上在第一年就达到了八种。

And then we set ourselves a goal of being in 100 different languages the next year.

然后我们为自己设定了明年提供 100 种不同语言的目标。

And the internationalization team smashed that goal by the end of 2017.

国际化团队在 2017 年底实现了这一目标。

And it has drastically changed Canva's growth trajectory because being in other languages, offering a localized experience, something that people in Brazil or Indonesia or Spain or Poland can authentically feel like they're using a product that's made for them has totally changed who our market is, how quickly we can grow.

它极大地改变了 Canva 的增长轨迹，因为使用其他语言，提供本地化体验，巴西、印度尼西亚、西班牙或波兰的人们可以真正感受到他们正在使用为他们制造的产品，这完全改变了我们的市场是谁，以及我们的增长速度。

And the way the product's used internationalizing into Brazilian Portuguese meant that we had to focus a ton more on the Android mobile experience, which was really different for us because we focused a lot on the desktop experience for the first four years.

该产品使用国际化巴西葡萄牙语的方式意味着我们必须更多地关注 Android 移动体验，这对我们来说确实不同，因为我们在前四年非常关注桌面体验。

Cameron Adams: People also in Brazil run entire businesses from their mobile phone and the types of content they're creating to interact with their audience is totally different.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：巴西人也通过手机经营整个业务，他们创建的与受众互动的内容类型完全不同。

So it's actually shaped our product and changed our product trajectory as a result of thinking about internationalization.

因此，由于国际化的思考，它实际上塑造了我们的产品并改变了我们的产品轨迹。

And it has just fueled tremendous growth.

它刚刚推动了巨大的增长。

Brazil, India, Indonesia, they're all in our top five markets and they grow way faster than the US does.

巴西、印度、印度尼西亚，它们都属于我们的前五个市场，而且它们的增长速度比美国快得多。

Lenny Rachitsky: I know you went international in your four, something like that, which is really early for a company.

Lenny Rachitsky：我知道你们在四月份就走向了国际化，类似的事情，这对于一家公司来说真的很早。

It also makes sense for SEO plus internationalization.

这对于 SEO 和国际化也有意义。

Makes tons of sense.

很有道理。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's a lot more surface area.

Lenny Rachitsky：表面积要大得多。

Okay.

好的。

I'm going to have two more questions.

我还有两个问题。

One is around your freemium strategy.

一是围绕你的免费增值策略。

Another a thing you all nailed.

另一件事你们都钉牢了。

There's just this, you're both seeing incredible growth and incredible monetization.

就是这样，您都看到了令人难以置信的增长和令人难以置信的货币化。

I'm curious what your philosophy is on what to include in the free plan versus what people should pay for because it's clearly worked out great.

我很好奇你对于免费计划中包含的内容与人们应该付费的内容的理念是什么，因为它显然效果很好。

Cameron Adams: Freemium for us wasn't so much a growth strategy or a monetization strategy as much as it spoke to our core mission of empowering the world to design.

Cameron Adams：免费增值对我们来说与其说是一种增长策略或货币化策略，不如说它体现了我们赋予世界设计能力的核心使命。

We truly want to democratize design, which means we want to get design into the hands of as many people as we can because we think that the world is a better place when more people can create really rich visual content.

我们真正希望使设计民主化，这意味着我们希望将设计交到尽可能多的人手中，因为我们认为，当更多的人可以创造真正丰富的视觉内容时，世界会变得更加美好。

So freemium just made sense to us because we could get the tool into billions of people's hands and they wouldn't necessarily have to pay for it.

因此，免费增值对我们来说很有意义，因为我们可以将该工具交到数十亿人手中，而他们不一定需要为此付费。

And much of the world can't pay for products because they just don't have access to that level of income.

世界上许多人无法支付产品费用，因为他们无法达到那样的收入水平。

Cameron Adams: So providing that equality was really important to us.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：因此，提供平等对我们来说非常重要。

But also you need to build a viable business because you can't help the world design if you can't afford to keep the lights on.

但你也需要建立一个可行的企业，因为如果你无力维持运转，你就无法帮助世界设计。

So freemium just really hit this sweet spot for us between philosophy and business building, so it was always part of our plan since day one.

因此，免费增值确实达到了我们在理念和业务建设之间的最佳平衡点，因此从第一天起它就一直是我们计划的一部分。

We initially had element sales as our business models.

我们最初以元素销售作为我们的商业模式。

So when we first went to pitch Canva, it was all about create a design.

因此，当我们第一次推销 Canva 时，一切都是为了创造一个设计。

Anything you use in that design will cost you a dollar.

你在该设计中使用的任何东西都会花费你一美元。

So if you dragged in a monkey and you wanted to export that whole design, you'd have to pay a dollar for the money.

因此，如果你拖了一只猴子并想出口整个设计，你就必须支付一美元。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, I've done that many times.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我已经这样做过很多次了。

Cameron Adams: Yes.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：是的。

It was really exciting to investors at the time.

这对于当时的投资者来说确实是令人兴奋的。

It was also really exciting to the content creators who were giving us the monkeys to put into our product.

对于内容创作者来说，这也非常令人兴奋，他们为我们提供了猴子并将其放入我们的产品中。

It was a totally new business model.

这是一种全新的商业模式。

It unlocked, I think, an area that a lot of people were unfamiliar with, which was stock photography.

我认为，它开启了一个很多人不熟悉的领域，那就是图库摄影。

Most people had not paid 100, $500 for photo, and that really held them back from being visual content creators.

大多数人没有为照片支付 100、500 美元，这确实阻碍了他们成为视觉内容创作者。

So it was a really unique innovation for us.

所以这对我们来说是一个非常独特的创新。

And for the first two years of Canva's life, that was how we derived our revenue.

在 Canva 诞生的头两年，我们就是这样获得收入的。

It grew pretty well.

它长得很好。

It was still like, I don't know, 30% month-on-month growth in terms of revenue.

我不知道，就收入而言，环比增长仍然是 30%。

But you can do that in the early stages of a startup.

但你可以在初创公司的早期阶段做到这一点。

It wasn't until we introduced our first subscription product that we saw really hockey stick growth in our revenue.

直到我们推出第一个订阅产品后，我们的收入才出现了真正的曲棍球棒增长。

And that was always the plan to launch a subscription product.

这始终是推出订阅产品的计划。

Cameron Adams: But as with many things, it was a vision that we didn't quite have meat around the bones.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：但与许多事情一样，我们的愿景是骨头上没有肉。

So we knew we wanted to put in a subscription what exactly that subscription would look like.

所以我们知道我们想要进行订阅，该订阅到底是什么样子的。

We didn't quite know.

我们不太清楚。

And through the first couple of years of Canva, we started noticing what people were asking for, what they would be more likely to pay in a subscription for.

在 Canva 的最初几年里，我们开始注意到人们的需求，他们更有可能为订阅付费。

And that formed the first few features that became what was then called Canva for Work, which is now called Canva Pro.

这形成了最初的几个功能，后来被称为 Canva for Work，现在被称为 Canva Pro。

And we launched our first subscription, I think about three years after we launched the first product, and we just rapidly saw the revenue from the subscription start overtaking the $1 image payments.

我们推出了第一个订阅，我想大约在我们推出第一个产品三年后，我们很快就看到订阅收入开始超过 1 美元的图像付款。

Cameron Adams: So much so that three or four years later we made image element payments part of the subscription.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：以至于三四年后，我们将图像元素付款作为订阅的一部分。

And again, that was like a second hockey stick in gross in terms of the revenue from the subscription because all you can eat images inside the Canva Pro subscription with just amazing value add for people.

再说一次，就订阅收入而言，这就像第二个曲棍球棒，因为你可以在 Canva Pro 订阅中吃到所有图像，为人们带来惊人的附加值。

And I don't even know if we get any revenue from image element sales now.

我什至不知道我们现在是否从图像元素销售中获得任何收入。

It's all about just going into this subscription.

这一切都与订阅有关。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Just hockey stick after hockey sticks.

只是一个接一个的曲棍球棒。

Speaking of another hockey stick, I want to talk about AI.

说到另一个曲棍球棒，我想谈谈人工智能。

Cameron Adams: Oh, a whole hockey team of hockey sticks.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：哦，整个曲棍球队都有曲棍球棒。

Lenny Rachitsky: Just need to acquire hockey teams.

Lenny Rachitsky：只需要收购曲棍球队。

I want to talk about AI, something on the top of everyone's minds these days.

我想谈谈人工智能，这是当今每个人最关心的话题。

It's another area you guys have nailed.

这是你们已经确定的另一个领域。

You're doing amazing work with AI.

您正在利用人工智能做出令人惊叹的工作。

It's providing actual value and business impact.

它提供实际价值和业务影响。

I hear you have an amazing internal AI ops team.

我听说你们有一支出色的内部人工智能运营团队。

Is there anything that you've learned so far that you can share about just how to integrate AI successfully and effectively into a product?

到目前为止，您是否学到了一些关于如何成功有效地将人工智能集成到产品中的知识可以分享？

Cameron Adams: As a technology company, you always just need to be constantly evolving and using the best technology.

Cameron Adams：作为一家科技公司，您始终需要不断发展并使用最好的技术。

And when we started that was mobile phones and cloud computing.

当我们开始时，这是移动电话和云计算。

They were the innovations that came in that really unlocked Canva.

它们是真正解锁 Canva 的创新。

AI is the next decade I think of innovation.

我认为人工智能是下一个十年的创新。

It's the next pivotal piece of technology that helps you build better products, but it also can't just be the basis for your product.

它是下一个关键技术，可以帮助您构建更好的产品，但它也不仅仅是您产品的基础。

You can't just be a product that's purely built on AI on being a rapper around an LLM or something like that.

你不能只是成为一个纯粹基于人工智能构建的产品，成为一个法学硕士或类似的说唱歌手。

You still need to think about what it is that people want to do and how you build a product that actually meets that need.

您仍然需要考虑人们想要做什么以及如何构建真正满足该需求的产品。

It isn't just about slapping a chatbot on something that already existed.

这不仅仅是将聊天机器人放在已经存在的东西上。

It's about deeply thinking about how AI can help them get to that goal even faster.

这是关于深入思考人工智能如何帮助他们更快地实现这一目标。

And we view AI as the next way of democratizing design and empowering the world to design, helping more people design, helping more people design quicker, helping more people design quicker with better quality.

我们将人工智能视为设计民主化和赋予世界设计能力的下一个方式，帮助更多的人设计，帮助更多的人更快地设计，帮助更多的人更快地设计并提高质量。

And that's how we approach every aspect of including AI in the Canva platform.

这就是我们如何处理将人工智能纳入 Canva 平台的各个方面。

Cameron Adams: We've had a team of machine learning engineers for probably seven years now.

Cameron Adams：我们的机器学习工程师团队已经成立大概七年了。

I think their work has become a lot more visual now and more customer facing way back when they were just doing recommendation engines inside our emails and our homepage and suggesting templates to you.

我认为他们的工作现在变得更加直观，并且更多地面向客户，当时他们只是在我们的电子邮件和主页中做推荐引擎并向您推荐模板。

But now they get to work with some really cool technology, which lets them produce images for people and create designs and summarize text and translate to a hundred different languages like it's really stuff that you can put directly in front of customers now, and that's super exciting.

但现在他们开始使用一些非常酷的技术，这让他们可以为人们制作图像、创建设计、总结文本并翻译成一百种不同的语言，就像你现在可以直接放在客户面前一样，这真是太令人兴奋了。

And over the last couple of years, we've built up more and more visual AI experts inside Canva, and we approach AI inside the product through three pillars.

在过去的几年里，我们在 Canva 内部培养了越来越多的视觉 AI 专家，并且我们通过三个支柱在产品内部实现 AI。

Cameron Adams: First of these is that we need to build some of our own AI tech, and we focus on building the AI tech that we have the biggest advantage in that we have the most data that we can put into it, the most insights, the most criticality to our product and our business.

Cameron Adams：首先，我们需要建立一些自己的人工智能技术，我们专注于构建我们拥有最大优势的人工智能技术，因为我们拥有最多的数据、最多的洞察力、对我们的产品和业务最关键的能力。

So we have teams building our own AI models around design and images and that stuff.

因此，我们有团队围绕设计和图像等内容构建我们自己的人工智能模型。

Second pillar is just finding the world's best AI people to partner with.

第二个支柱是寻找世界上最好的人工智能人才进行合作。

And there's a whole bunch of stuff that you don't need to internalize in your company.

还有一大堆东西你不需要在公司内化。

You don't need to create an LLM because it's a commodity thing now.

你不需要创建法学硕士，因为它现在是一种商品。

And there's a bunch of providers who can do it way better and have way more resources to do it with than you do.

而且有很多提供商可以做得更好，并且拥有比您更多的资源。

So finding a great partner like OpenAI, and we partnered with RunwayML to do video generation, finding the world's best and bringing them into your product with a great integration, the second pillar.

因此，我们找到了像 OpenAI 这样的优秀合作伙伴，我们与 RunwayML 合作进行视频生成，找到世界上最好的视频并将其完美集成到您的产品中，这是第二个支柱。

Cameron Adams: And for us, the third pillar is our app ecosystem.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：对我们来说，第三个支柱是我们的应用程序生态系统。

So we're fortunate now we've got 170 million people using the product every single month.

所以我们很幸运，现在每个月都有 1.7 亿人使用该产品。

We have quite an audience that people want access to.

我们有相当多的观众想要接触。

And through our app developer ecosystem, they can build apps which directly integrate with the Canva product to give them access to those hundreds of millions of people when people are quite eager to do that.

通过我们的应用程序开发者生态系统，他们可以构建直接与 Canva 产品集成的应用程序，以便在人们非常渴望这样做时接触到数亿人。

Now, we've seen huge uptake in that from AI developers who have included stuff in Canva from music generators to virtual avatars that can present your presentation to you to a whole slew of things.

现在，我们已经看到 AI 开发人员对此的巨大关注，他们在 Canva 中添加了从音乐生成器到虚拟化身（可以向您展示演示文稿）等各种功能。

And those three pillars have, I think, allowed us to create a really coherent experience and one that still keeps a focus on what people want to do, how to help them reach their big goals in a way that doesn't just push technology in the face in a way that just is part of the experience and is a natural way of getting them to where they want to go.

我认为，这三大支柱使我们能够创造一种真正连贯的体验，并且仍然关注人们想做的事情，如何帮助他们实现他们的大目标，而不仅仅是以一种只是体验的一部分的方式推动技术，而是一种让他们到达他们想去的地方的自然方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: I was also looking at the GPT story of the fifth most popular custom GPT where people can generate logos using it.

Lenny Rachitsky：我还关注了第五个最受欢迎的自定义 GPT 的 GPT 故事，人们可以使用它生成徽标。

So maybe that's driving some growth too.

所以也许这也推动了一些增长。

I know you wanted to share something that you guys are launching or have launched by the time this episode comes out.

我知道你们想分享一些你们正在推出或在本集播出时已经推出的东西。

Is that true?

这是真的吗？

Cameron Adams: Yeah, so we've got a big event in Los Angeles in a couple of months.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：是的，几个月后我们将在洛杉矶举办一场大型活动。

It's our Canva create, which is an evolution of the season openness that we used to do.

这是我们 Canva 的创作，是我们过去所做的季节开放的演变。

So season openers are no longer just inside Canva now.

因此，赛季揭幕战现在不再只在 Canva 内进行。

We actually invite our whole community in, and we're going to have probably about 4,000 people in the theater in LA and a couple of million online.

实际上，我们会邀请整个社区参与进来，在洛杉矶的剧院里可能会有大约 4,000 人，还有几百万人在网上。

And we're really going to be pulling the covers off pretty much the next decade of Canva.

我们真的将在 Canva 的下一个十年揭开面纱。

We've focused for the first decade of Canva on unlocking individuals and small businesses, giving them the tools that they need to design and to express themselves and create visual content.

Canva 的第一个十年专注于解锁个人和小型企业，为他们提供设计、表达自己和创建视觉内容所需的工具。

And as Canva has grown and people have gotten used to creating this stuff, they've invited their teams in, they now collaborate with people on presentations, on Canva videos, on swag T-shirts that they need to make for their event next week.

随着 Canva 的发展，人们已经习惯了创造这些东西，他们邀请了自己的团队加入，现在他们与人们合作进行演示、制作 Canva 视频以及需要为下周的活动制作的精美 T 恤。

Cameron Adams: And as more and more people are using Canva together, it's picking up a lot of steam.

Cameron Adams：随着越来越多的人一起使用 Canva，它的发展势头越来越强劲。

We've got 95% of the Fortune 500 using Canva.

95% 的财富 500 强企业都在使用 Canva。

We've got huge teams of thousands of people using Canva.

我们有数千人的庞大团队使用 Canva。

And this has really opened our eyes to not only the enterprise opportunity, but also just the way to redesign the way people work.

这确实让我们不仅看到了企业机会，而且看到了重新设计人们工作方式的方法。

And that is what the event at the end of May is about.

这就是五月底事件的意义所在。

It's really redesigning work for a whole number of different verticals, from marketing to sales to HR to IT to creatives that work inside large teams, large organizations, large enterprises.

这实际上是在重新设计许多不同垂直领域的工作，从营销到销售，从人力资源到 IT，再到在大型团队、大型组织、大型企业内工作的创意人员。

We've redesigned Canva for this collaborative enterprise age, so we'll be pulling the covers off that alongside work kits, which are a whole verticalized experiences for people inside marketing and sales and HR that want to use Canva, as well as a bunch of improvements to our AI products and an actual enterprise skew that we're launching as well.

我们针对这个协作企业时代重新设计了 Canva，因此我们将揭开它与工作套件的面纱，这些工作套件为想要使用 Canva 的营销、销售和人力资源内部人员提供了完整的垂直体验，同时还对我们的 AI 产品进行了一系列改进，并推出了实际的企业倾斜。

Cameron Adams: So through this growth and through getting to understand the needs of CIOs and heads of security at enterprises, we've realized that there pretty much needs to be a new enterprise product of Canva that meets the needs of hugely scaled teams, which has been quite different for us because we have scaled from those individuals just using the product all by themselves and organically growing the teams.

Cameron Adams：因此，通过这种增长以及通过了解企业 CIO 和安全主管的需求，我们意识到非常需要 Canva 的新企业产品来满足大规模团队的需求，这对我们来说非常不同，因为我们已经从那些只使用该产品的个人扩大规模并有机地发展团队。

And now looking at it from a top-down lens and building that enterprise products is what we've been focused on for the last couple of years.

现在，从自上而下的角度来看，构建企业产品是我们过去几年一直关注的重点。

So we'll be pulling the covers off that as well in LA.

因此，我们也将在洛杉矶揭开这一面纱。

Lenny Rachitsky: I see another hockey stick approaching.

Lenny Rachitsky：我看到另一根曲棍球棒正在靠近。

I'm excited of all these things you're launching.

我对你们推出的所有这些东西感到兴奋。

What a business you've built.

你建立了多么好的企业啊。

I feel like it's still way too under the radar, even though it's this juggernaut.

我觉得它仍然太不受关注，尽管它是一个巨大的力量。

Nice work, Cameron and team.

干得好，卡梅伦和团队。

Two more questions I ask everyone, where can folks find you online and how can listeners be useful to you?

我再问大家两个问题，人们在哪里可以在网上找到你以及听众如何对你有用？

Cameron Adams: They can find me online at themaninblue.com, which is my blog that's been around for 24 years now.

Cameron Adams：他们可以在 themaninblue.com 上找到我，这是我的博客，已经存在 24 年了。

What was the other question?

另一个问题是什么？

How can you-

你怎么能——

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

How can listeners be useful to you?

听众如何对你有用？

Cameron Adams: I love their design stories, how design has helped unlock something for them, whether it's starting their first business or helping a nonprofit that they volunteer at.

卡梅伦·亚当斯：我喜欢他们的设计故事，喜欢设计如何帮助他们解锁一些东西，无论是开始他们的第一个生意还是帮助他们志愿服务的非营利组织。

I just love bumping into someone in the street and seeing the joy of design right up in their eyes.

我只是喜欢在街上撞见某人，并在他们眼中看到设计的乐趣。

So please do that whenever you see me.

所以，每当你见到我时，请这样做。

Lenny Rachitsky: Beautiful.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：美丽。

Cam, you're awesome.

卡姆，你真棒。

Canva is awesome.

坎瓦太棒了。

Go check out canva.com.

去看看canva.com。

Easy to find.

很容易找到。

Thanks for being here.

感谢您来到这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: All right.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Bye, everyone.

再见，大家。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcast、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。