Lessons from scaling Uber and Opendoor | Brian Tolkin (Head of Product at Opendoor, ex-Uber)

Lenny Rachitsky: You've worked at two businesses that have done incredibly well combining product in ops.

Lenny Rachitsky：您曾在两家公司工作过，这两家公司在将产品与运营相结合方面做得非常好。

Brian Tolkin: Uber always has this mentality and Opendoor does two of the product operations, twin turbine jet plane where you can fly the plane on one engine for a little bit if you need to, but it's operating most efficiently and effectively if both are working together.

Brian Tolkin：Uber 总是有这种心态，Opendoor 负责两种产品运营，即双涡轮喷气式飞机，如果需要的话，你可以用一台发动机驾驶飞机一段时间，但如果两者一起工作，它的运营效率最高。

Lenny Rachitsky: What has having been in ops done to make you a better product leader?

Lenny Rachitsky：在运营方面做了哪些工作来让您成为更好的产品领导者？

Brian Tolkin: Gave a really deep understanding of how the business actually works.

Brian Tolkin：对业务的实际运作方式有了非常深入的了解。

It's a pretty good foundation for them going on to say, okay, what do we actually want to build in a more scalable technology way.

这是一个很好的基础，让他们可以继续说，好吧，我们实际上想要以更具可扩展性的技术方式构建什么。

Lenny Rachitsky: Something else I've heard that you're very good at is staying very calm under pressure.

Lenny Rachitsky：我听说你非常擅长的另一件事是在压力下保持冷静。

Brian Tolkin: I've slept on the floor in China before launching uberPOOL, and when you reflect the stress onto your teams, everybody tenses out.

Brian Tolkin：在推出 uberPOOL 之前，我在中国就睡在地板上，当你将压力反映给你的团队时，每个人都会紧张起来。

It counterintuitively doesn't produce better outcomes.

违反直觉的是，它不会产生更好的结果。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Brian Tolkin.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：今天我的客人是布莱恩·托尔金。

Brian is currently head of product and design at Opendoor.

Brian 目前是 Opendoor 的产品和设计主管。

Before that, he spent nearly five years at Uber where he joined as employee 100.

在此之前，他在 Uber 工作了近五年，并以第 100 号员工的身份加入。

Before Uber had UberX or uberPOOL or any shared rides, he actually started on the ops team at Uber, moved into product, ended up leading product and launch of uberPOOL, and then taking it global.

在 Uber 推出 UberX 或 uberPOOL 或任何共享乘车服务之前，他实际上是从 Uber 的运营团队开始的，后来进入产品领域，最终领导了产品并推出了 uberPOOL，然后将其推向全球。

He also started the product operations function at Uber.

他还开始在 Uber 负责产品运营职能。

Before that function was really even a thing, which I didn't know until the chat that we had.

在此之前，这个功能确实是一个东西，直到我们聊天时我才知道。

In our conversation, Brian shares a ton of lessons about building products with a heavy operational component.

在我们的谈话中，布莱恩分享了大量关于构建具有重型操作组件的产品的经验教训。

Also, how to run great product reviews, how he implements the jobs to be done, framework and Opendoor's successfully.

另外，如何进行出色的产品评论、如何成功实施要完成的工作、框架和 Opendoor。

Lenny Rachitsky: The story behind Zillow trying to compete with Opendoor failing and then partnering instead.

Lenny Rachitsky：Zillow 试图与 Opendoor 竞争失败并转而合作背后的故事。

Plus a ton of great stories from the early days of Uber and Opendoor, and so much more.

还有 Uber 和 Opendoor 早期的大量精彩故事等等。

If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

It's the best way to avoid missing feature episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously.

这是避免错过专题节目的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

With that, I bring you Brian Tolkin.

接下来，我为您带来布莱恩·托尔金。

Brian, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

布莱恩，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Brian Tolkin: Thank you, appreciate it.

布莱恩·托尔金：谢谢，非常感谢。

Thanks for having me.

谢谢你有我。

Lenny Rachitsky: First of all, just a huge thank you to Kayvon Beykpour for connecting us, introducing us.

Lenny Rachitsky：首先，非常感谢 Kayvon Beykpour 联系我们、介绍我们。

He said all kinds of amazingly nice things about you.

他说了很多关于你的好话。

He also gave me some very hard questions to ask you.

他还给了我一些很难回答的问题。

I hope you've come prepared.

我希望你已经做好准备。

Brian Tolkin: Terrific.

布莱恩·托尔金：太棒了。

Put me in my hot seat.

让我坐在我的座位上。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, I want to spend a bunch of time talking about product and ops.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，我想花大量时间讨论产品和运营。

You started your career in operations.

您的职业生涯始于运营。

At Uber you actually started on the ops team and you moved into product.

在 Uber，你实际上是从运营团队开始的，然后进入了产品领域。

You've also worked at both Uber and at Opendoor, which have both huge operational components.

您还曾在 Uber 和 Opendoor 工作过，这两家公司都有庞大的运营部门。

I think it's really rare that people, one, see a company scale to the heights of Uber and Opendoor with such a heavy operational component that are still tech companies and also it's really where someone starts an ops and then moves into product and ends up where you are, where your chief product officer, really successful company.

我认为，很少有人会看到一家公司规模达到 Uber 和 Opendoor 的高度，拥有如此庞大的运营组件，但它们仍然是科技公司，而且它确实是有人开始运营，然后进入产品领域，最终成为你所在的地方，你的首席产品官，真正成功的公司。

So I have a bunch of questions here.

所以我在这里有很多问题。

Maybe the first is just what has having been in ops done to make you a better product leader?

也许第一个就是为了让你成为更好的产品领导者而在运营中所做的事情？

How does that change the way that you operate as a product leader?

这如何改变您作为产品领导者的运作方式？

Brian Tolkin: Starting on the operations side gave a really deep understanding of how the business actually works.

Brian Tolkin：从运营方面入手，让我们对业务的实际运作方式有了真正深入的了解。

You are truly operating it day in and day out and the success of the city is in large part driven by the inputs that you are putting into it every single day on the ground and whether or not there was rain that weekend, which was a nice driver of metrics, but talking to customers every single day like one-on-one onboarding drivers responding to support tickets, there's no centralized support team, there was no closer to the customer, right?

你确实日复一日地运营它，城市的成功在很大程度上取决于你每天投入的投入以及那个周末是否下雨，这是一个很好的指标驱动因素，但每天与客户交谈，就像一对一的入职司机响应支持票一样，没有集中的支持团队，没有更接近客户，对吗？

And so I think that foundation actually for really understanding what moves the business and being super close to the customer actually is a pretty good foundation for them going on to say, okay, what do we actually want to build in a more scalable technology way?

因此，我认为真正理解推动业务发展并与客户保持密切联系的基础实际上是一个非常好的基础，可以让他们继续说，好吧，我们实际上想要以更具可扩展性的技术方式构建什么？

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Pendo, the only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Pendo 为您带来，Pendo 是唯一适用于任何类型应用程序的一体化产品体验平台。

Tired of bouncing around multiple tools to uncover what's really happening inside your product?

厌倦了使用多种工具来揭示产品内部到底发生了什么？

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Pendo 在一个简单易用的平台中提供了您所需的所有工具，让您可以轻松回答有关用户如何与您的产品互动的关键问题，然后将这些见解转化为行动。

Also, you can get your users to do what you actually want them to do.

此外，您还可以让用户做您真正希望他们做的事情。

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首先，Pendo 围绕产品分析构建，了解用户在应用程序中实际执行的操作，以便您可以优化他们的体验。

Next, Pendo lets you deploy in-app guides that lead users through the actions that matter most.

接下来，Pendo 允许您部署应用内指南，引导用户完成最重要的操作。

Lenny Rachitsky: Then Pendo integrates user feedback so that you can capture and analyze what people actually want.

Lenny Rachitsky：然后 Pendo 会整合用户反馈，以便您可以捕获和分析人们真正想要的东西。

And the new thing in Pendo, session replays.

Pendo 中的新功能是会话重播。

A very cool way to visualize user sessions.

可视化用户会话的一种非常酷的方式。

I'm not surprised at all that over 10,000 companies use it today.

如今有超过 10,000 家公司在使用它，我对此并不感到惊讶。

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立即访问 pendo.io/lenny 创建免费 Pendo 帐户，并开始在产品的各个角落打造更好的体验。

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PS，您想进一步提升您的产品主导知识吗？

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查看 Pendo 的一系列免费认证课程，这些课程由演讲产品专家主持，旨在帮助您在职业生涯中成长和进步。

Learn more and experience the power of the Pendo platform today at pendo.io/lenny.

立即访问 pendo.io/lenny 了解更多信息并体验 Pendo 平台的强大功能。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Explo, a game changer for customer facing analytics and data reporting.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Explo 为您带来，Explo 是面向客户的分析和数据报告的游戏规则改变者。

Are your users craving more dashboards, reports and analytics within your product?

您的用户是否渴望在您的产品中添加更多仪表板、报告和分析？

Are you tired of trying to build it yourself?

您是否厌倦了尝试自己构建它？

As a product leader, you probably have these requests in your roadmap, but the struggle to prioritize them is real.

作为产品领导者，您的路线图中可能有这些请求，但确定它们的优先级的困难是真实存在的。

Building analytics from scratch can be time-consuming, expensive, and a really challenging process.

从头开始构建分析可能非常耗时、昂贵，而且是一个非常具有挑战性的过程。

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输入爆炸。

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Explo 是一款完全白标的嵌入式分析解决方案，其设计完全考虑到您的用户。

Getting started is easy.

入门很容易。

Explo connects to any relational database or warehouse and with its low-code functionality, you can build and style dashboards in.

Explo 连接到任何关系数据库或仓库，凭借其低代码功能，您可以构建仪表板并设计仪表板样式。

Once you're ready, simply embed the dashboard or report into your application with a tiny code snippet.

准备就绪后，只需使用一小段代码将仪表板或报告嵌入到您的应用程序中即可。

The best part, your end users can use Explo's AI features for their own report and dashboard generation eliminating customer data requests for your support team.

最棒的是，您的最终用户可以使用 Explo 的 AI 功能来生成自己的报告和仪表板，从而消除对支持团队的客户数据请求。

Build and embed a fully white labeled analytics experience in days.

在几天内构建并嵌入完全白标的分析体验。

Lenny Rachitsky: Try it for free at explo.co/lenny.

Lenny Rachitsky：请访问 explo.co/lenny 免费试用。

That's E-X-P-L-O/lenny.

那是 E-X-P-L-O/lenny。

I've seen that a lot of companies, and this was definitely true to Airbnb, where the product team looks down a little bit on the ops team where they're like, "oh, we're doing things that are going to scale to millions of users.

我见过很多公司都是这样，Airbnb 确实如此，产品团队有点看不起运营团队，他们会说：“哦，我们正在做的事情将扩展到数百万用户。

We're doing these things that are going to apply to everyone." There's this ops team over there doing a few things that are going to not scale.

我们正在做的这些事情将适用于每个人。”那里的运营团队正在做一些无法扩展的事情。

They keep asking us for things to build for their one-off ideas.

他们不断要求我们为他们的一次性想法提供一些东西。

What do you think that product teams often maybe miss or don't understand about the ops teams that would help them see them in a different light?

您认为产品团队经常会错过或不了解运维团队的哪些方面，而运维团队可以帮助他们从不同的角度看待他们？

Brian Tolkin: Yeah, it's a great question and I think Uber always had this mentality and OpenDoor does too of like a twin turbine jet plane where you can fly the plane on one engine for a little bit if you need to, but it's operating most efficiently and effectively if both are working together, and I think that's really true, right?

Brian Tolkin：是的，这是一个很好的问题，我认为 Uber 一直都有这种心态，OpenDoor 也像一架双涡轮喷气式飞机，如果需要的话，你可以用一个引擎驾驶飞机一段时间，但如果两者一起工作，它的运行效率最高，我认为这确实是真的，对吧？

The reality is operations teams, local teams, can iterate faster, can scale talking to customers really much more efficiently, have great qualitative insights, and so if it's seen more as a harmony instead of a competition, I think that's really, really helpful where it's like, okay, how do we get the insights that are happening day in and day out in the field, on the ground, whatever that may be, and help us build better products because of that, right?

现实情况是，运营团队、本地团队可以更快地迭代，可以更有效地扩展与客户的交谈，拥有出色的定性洞察力，因此，如果它更多地被视为一种和谐而不是竞争，我认为这真的非常有帮助，比如，好吧，我们如何获得每天在现场、实地发生的洞察力，无论是什么，并因此帮助我们打造更好的产品，对吗？

Brian Tolkin: Like a PM sitting in San Francisco can't be in Opendoor's case 50 markets, walking houses every single day in Uber's case, whatever, a thousand cities understanding the nuances of safety in South America and it's just not possible, but what you can do is foster a really good relationship and a really good feedback loop of how people who do deeply understand those things can help give insights.

Brian Tolkin：就像坐在旧金山的 PM 不可能在 Opendoor 的 50 个市场中一样，在 Uber 的情况中每天都在走动，无论如何，一千个城市都了解南美洲安全的细微差别，这是不可能的，但你可以做的是建立一种真正良好的关系和一个真正良好的反馈循环，让深入了解这些事情的人们如何帮助提供见解。

Now is actually the birth of product operations was that insight as well.

现在实际上是产品运营的诞生，也是这种洞察力。

Brian Tolkin: Yeah, sure.

布莱恩·托尔金：是的，当然。

So, sorry, I should probably define what product operations was.

所以，抱歉，我应该定义什么是产品运营。

At Uber it was basically this notion that we had centralized, this was later in my career at Uber, but we had a centralized product team building stuff mostly in San Francisco, not strictly through the Ross, but at this point around the world, but mostly in San Francisco and then we had a very globally distributed operations team, and there was a bidirectional feedback loop that wasn't super strong and that feedback loop was basically when the EPD teams in San Francisco built new features, how do we effectively put it in global markets and then how do we effectively get input from global markets to better build features.

在 Uber，我们基本上是集中化的概念，这是我在 Uber 职业生涯的后期，但我们有一个集中的产品团队，主要在旧金山构建东西，不是严格通过罗斯，而是在世界各地，但主要在旧金山，然后我们有一个非常全球分布的运营团队，并且有一个不是超级强大的双向反馈循环，该反馈循环基本上是在旧金山的 EPD 团队构建新功能时，我们如何有效地将其放入全球市场，然后我们如何有效地获得输入从全球市场更好地构建功能。

And so one solution to that problem, our solution at the time was to start up a new function called product operations who had accountability and reported into operations but physically sat with and operated much like a member of the product team to help solve that.

因此，解决这个问题的一个解决方案是，我们当时的解决方案是启动一个名为产品运营的新职能部门，该职能部门负有责任并报告运营情况，但实际上就像产品团队的成员一样坐在一起并进行操作，以帮助解决这个问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is that maybe the first time there's a...

Lenny Rachitsky：这可能是第一次……

Did you invent product operations as a function?

您是否将产品运营作为一种功能发明了？

Brian Tolkin: I don't think so because at the time, I believe Google had a function, I can't remember what Google called it was something slightly different, but I met with a few folks who had been in similar type roles at Google and a couple other places, so I don't take credit for certainly for inventing IT and other people have actually dabbled in this model at Uber before me there was just a formalization of it and our actual building out of the organization, et cetera.

Brian Tolkin：我不这么认为，因为当时我相信谷歌有一个功能，我不记得谷歌所说的有点不同，但我遇到了一些在谷歌和其他几个地方担任过类似角色的人，所以我并不认为发明IT的人肯定是我的功劳，其他人实际上在我之前在Uber涉足过这个模型，只是它的形式化和我们在组织中的实际构建，等等。

Lenny Rachitsky: Did none of that.

Lenny Rachitsky：什么也没做。

Sounds like you basically helped make it a thing.

听起来你基本上帮助它成为一件事。

I know you're being very modest, I think.

我知道你很谦虚，我想。

Coming back to your point about decentralized operations teams, something I've read is that search pricing came out of one GM and a market just testing, emailing all the drivers, hey, we're going to give you extra if you drive on Saturday night.

回到你关于去中心化运营团队的观点，我读到的是，搜索定价来自一位总经理和一个刚刚测试的市场，给所有司机发电子邮件，嘿，如果你周六晚上开车，我们会给你额外的。

Is that true?

这是真的吗？

Brian Tolkin: That would've been probably a little bit before my time, but that being said, one thing that is true is that surge pricing for actually quite sometimes all of 2012, certainly 2013 probably, I don't know when we necessarily switched, was very much a human in the loop system or a very manual system where GMs in every city would control basically the parameters in which surge would operate and so much of the time that would need, for example, Monday through Friday, there would be no search, it couldn't flip on, and then Friday nights and Saturday nights it would flip on from whatever you set, 7:00 PM to 3:00 AM and the cap was X, whatever the cap was.

Brian Tolkin：这可能有点早于我的时间，但话虽这么说，有一件事是真实的，实际上有时整个 2012 年（当然可能是 2013 年）的峰时定价，我不知道我们什么时候必须切换，很大程度上是一个人在循环系统或一个非常手动的系统，每个城市的总经理基本上会控制峰时运行的参数，并且需要很多时间，例如，周一到周五，不会有搜索，它无法打开，然后周五晚上和周六晚上，它会从您设置的任何时间（晚上 7:00 到凌晨 3:00）打开，并且上限为 X，无论上限是什么。

And then within those parameters the algorithm would optimize for what the price was.

然后在这些参数内，算法将针对价格进行优化。

But yeah, GMs controlled whether it was on or off and what geographies were surging.

但是，是的，通用汽车控制着它的开启还是关闭以及哪些地区正在激增。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, I didn't know that.

Lenny Rachitsky：哇，我不知道。

Was that out of we believe we are better than the algorithms or we just don't have time to make them amazing yet, so we're just going to help them along?

这是因为我们相信我们比算法更好，还是我们只是还没有时间让它们变得令人惊叹，所以我们只是要帮助它们？

Brian Tolkin: Yeah, I think it was probably a function of a bunch of stuff, one of which is like, hey, this is a fairly new concept and it's powerful and dangerous and so let's make sure we understand what's happening.

布莱恩·托尔金：是的，我认为这可能是一堆东西的功能，其中之一是，嘿，这是一个相当新的概念，它强大而危险，所以让我们确保我们了解正在发生的事情。

The second is this belief that local city teams know their cities best and so you might know that an event is happening, a baseball game gets out and it's like, oh, I know that this baseball game's going to get out at 10:00 PM so I'm going to set surge at 9:45 and the algorithm may not be able to pick that up.

第二个信念是，当地城市球队最了解他们的城市，因此您可能知道正在发生某件事，一场棒球比赛即将结束，就像是，哦，我知道这场棒球比赛将在晚上 10:00 结束，所以我将在 9:45 设置激增，而算法可能无法识别这一点。

And then the third is the technical constraint of nowadays clearly it's all automated, but it's really hard to build a fully dynamic, always on geospatially aware pricing system and not just a little bit of time.

第三个是当今的技术限制，显然它都是自动化的，但建立一个完全动态的、始终基于地理空间感知的定价系统而不只是一点时间真的很难。

Lenny Rachitsky: That makes sense.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这是有道理的。

I feel like you're full of wild stories from your time at Uber.

我觉得你在 Uber 期间充满了疯狂的故事。

Is there one that comes to mind of just, I think you helped scale in China, uberPOOL?

我认为您是否帮助我在中国实现了规模扩张？

Lenny Rachitsky: Maybe that's the one.

Lenny Rachitsky：也许就是这样。

I don't know.

我不知道。

Can you share wild story from early Uber days?

您能分享一下 Uber 早期的疯狂故事吗？

Brian Tolkin: Yeah, so in the early days of Uber, one fun story is obviously UberX is a random mainstream product but has a funny, silly name, UberX.

Brian Tolkin：是的，所以在 Uber 的早期，有一个有趣的故事是 UberX 显然是一种随机的主流产品，但有一个有趣、愚蠢的名字，UberX。

This product in the early days was going to be all hybrid and had a bunch of different potential names.

早期的这个产品将是混合型的，并且有很多不同的潜在名称。

I was not personally driving this, this was someone else on the operations team, but they built the model for what this product could be and there's no name for it yet, so it was going to be a placeholder.

我不是亲自推动这个，这是运营团队的其他人，但他们为这个产品构建了模型，而且还没有名称，所以它将成为一个占位符。

So what do you put in some placeholder?

那么你在占位符中放了什么？

X.

X.

So UberX and then the company was moving quickly enough, the product got the green light, it launched, and here we are, I don't know, 12 years later, 11 years later, whatever it is and UberX is the name that stuck.

所以 UberX 和公司的行动足够快，产品获得批准，推出，我不知道，12 年后，11 年后，无论是什么，UberX 都是这个名字。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is hilarious.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太搞笑了。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

So it was a placeholder.

所以它是一个占位符。

It's like many products start that way where they're like, this is just the temporary name, and they're like, okay, I guess everyone just knows it this way now we're going to stick with it.

就像许多产品都是以这种方式开始的，这只是临时名称，他们就像，好吧，我想每个人都知道这样，现在我们要坚持下去。

Brian Tolkin: Exactly.

布莱恩·托尔金：没错。

It's too expensive to change and rebrand at this point.

此时改变和重塑品牌的成本太高了。

Brian Tolkin: One that is good about scaling Uber uberPOOL in China is we were launching Uber pool in China and this was going to be, China at the time was pretty big for Uber, but uberPOOL was not there yet, and so we were going to launch.

Brian Tolkin：在中国扩展 Uber uberPOOL 的一个好处是，我们在中国推出 Uber pool，当时的中国对于 Uber 来说相当大，但 uberPOOL 还没有在那里，所以我们打算推出。

And myself and a few other folks were in Chengdu China, which is the first Chinese market that we were launching uberPOOL in and we were going to be on the ground took to launch.

我和其他一些人在中国成都，这是我们推出 uberPOOL 的第一个中国市场，我们将在当地推出。

We wanted to go live at, I believe it was 6:00 AM for rush hour on, I don't remember the day, but whatever, Monday morning, and so we're there over the weekend getting ready to set up and at the same time we were doing some data center testing.

我们想在早上 6:00 上线，我相信是高峰时段，我不记得具体是哪一天，但无论如何，周一早上，所以我们周末在那里准备设置，同时我们正在进行一些数据中心测试。

And so we flipped on all the testing infrastructure and thought it was going to work and nothing works, and the matching algorithm just isn't working and we're like, oh my god, now it's whatever, 5:00 PM the day before we're supposed to go live, 6:00 PM, 7:00 PM okay, let's get on the phone with the US, try and figure out what's going on.

因此，我们打开了所有测试基础设施，认为它会起作用，但什么都不起作用，匹配算法不起作用，我们就像，天哪，现在就这样了，我们应该上线的前一天下午 5:00，下午 6:00，晚上 7:00 好吧，让我们给美国打电话，试着弄清楚发生了什么。

Brian Tolkin: I remember I slept about 30 minutes that night between 2:00 and 3:00 AM being like, okay, well, we have to go live at 6:00 AM I think there was some press around it.

Brian Tolkin：我记得那天晚上凌晨 2:00 到 3:00 之间我睡了大约 30 分钟，我想，好吧，好吧，我们必须在早上 6:00 开始直播，我想周围有一些媒体。

We were planning on going live and I think we got everything finally working at probably about five 30 or six in the morning and launched just in the nick of time.

我们正计划上线，我想我们终于在早上五点三十分或六点左右一切正常，并在关键时刻推出了。

And I'll never forget, we launched, it was great, we monitored, everything was good, and then we walked out for breakfast at 7:30 in the morning.

我永远不会忘记，我们启动了，非常棒，我们进行了监控，一切都很好，然后我们在早上 7:30 出去吃早餐。

Everyone sleep depressed, no one slept all night and we got these pancakes street food things and I have to imagine they were not that good, but in my mind it was the best meal I've ever had in my life.

每个人都睡得很沮丧，没有人整夜睡觉，我们得到了这些街头小吃的煎饼，我不得不想象它们不是那么好，但在我看来，这是我一生中吃过的最好的一餐。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's like a meal after a marathon or a big hike.

Lenny Rachitsky：这就像马拉松或远足后的一顿饭。

Lenny Rachitsky: Everything's so delicious.

Lenny Rachitsky：一切都很美味。

This comes up a lot of just these moments that are so incredibly stressful and hard and leap deprived end up being the best memories and the best stories to tell and things you look back at fondly.

很多这样的时刻都会出现，这些时刻是如此令人难以置信的压力、艰难和被剥夺，最终成为最好的回忆、最好的故事和你回想起的美好事物。

It's so weird how human nature is like that.

人性就是这样，真是奇怪。

Brian Tolkin: Yeah, I mean another one more recent for Opendoor was when COVID hit, physically we buy and sell homes, and so we were physically going into people's homes and suddenly March 2020 going into people's homes was not something people were comfortable with.

Brian Tolkin：是的，我的意思是 Opendoor 最近发生的另一件事是，当新冠疫情来袭时，我们实际买卖房屋，因此我们实际进入人们的家中，但突然间，2020 年 3 月进入人们的家中，人们感到不舒服。

And you look at the real estate data coming out of China at the time and it looked like coming to a standstill, and so we actually turned off the core business and we stopped buying homes for a few months.

你看看当时来自中国的房地产数据，它看起来像是陷入了停滞，所以我们实际上关闭了核心业务，我们停止了几个月的购房。

hey, we can't go in and we don't know if anyone's going to be buying any homes, and so what do we do?

嘿，我们不能进去，我们也不知道是否有人会买房子，所以我们该怎么办？

And we took those few months and then came out the other side and had virtualized the whole process.

我们花了几个月的时间，然后从另一边出来，虚拟化了整个过程。

Then it was pretty stressful, right, because looking at a business that relies on going into people's homes and suddenly you can't do that anymore, what do you do?

然后压力很大，对吧，因为看着一个依赖进入人们家庭的业务，突然你不能再这样做了，你会做什么？

So, again, a fond memory to look back on a very stressful time in the moment where it feels very, very difficult.

所以，再次回顾那段充满压力的时光，感觉非常非常困难，这是一个美好的回忆。

Lenny Rachitsky: Just since you mentioned Opendoor, I think many people have heard of Opendoor.

Lenny Rachitsky：自从您提到Opendoor，我想很多人都听说过Opendoor。

Maybe just give a quick explanation of what Opendoor does for people that aren't exactly sure.

也许只是为那些不太确定的人快速解释一下 Opendoor 的用途。

Brian Tolkin: So we're a digital platform to buy and sell real estate.

Brian Tolkin：所以我们是一个买卖房地产的数字平台。

The core product today is a seller focused product where people can go online, enter some information about their home, and we'll make an all cash offer to be able to sell simplicity and certainty.

今天的核心产品是以卖家为中心的产品，人们可以上网，输入一些有关他们房屋的信息，我们将提供全现金报价，以便能够销售简单性和确定性。

So the product really works for people who want something that is certain and simple and easy.

因此，该产品确实适合那些想要确定、简单和容易的东西的人。

I don't know if you've ever sold a home, but it can be a very, very, very successful difficult process with showings and open houses and how to price it and will it sell and all of that stuff.

我不知道你是否曾经卖过房子，但这可能是一个非常、非常、非常成功的困难过程，包括看房、开放参观、如何定价、是否会出售以及所有这些东西。

And so we offer basically a way to skip the whole process.

因此，我们基本上提供了一种跳过整个过程的方法。

Lenny Rachitsky: So you basically sell your house to Opendoor and it's just like, cool, done, move on.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以你基本上把你的房子卖给了 Opendoor，就像，酷，完成了，继续前进。

Brian Tolkin: You picked your closing date, you move out when you want.

布莱恩托尔金：你选择了你的截止日期，你想什么时候搬就什么时候搬。

Yeah, there's no hassle.

是的，没有什么麻烦。

Lenny Rachitsky: Sounds amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：听起来棒极了。

I want that.

我想要那个。

Coming back to ops and product, just to close this thread again, you've worked at two businesses that have done incredibly well combining product and ops.

回到运营和产品，再次结束这个主题，您曾在两家公司工作过，这两家公司在产品和运营方面的结合做得非常好。

Are there any just broad lessons you've taken away from how to make these two teams and functions work well together and to build a business that's very ops heavy but also offer driven?

您从如何使这两个团队和职能部门良好合作以及建立一个运营繁重但又以产品驱动的业务中汲取了哪些广泛的经验教训？

Brian Tolkin: The first one we touched on, which is a, there's just got to be mutual respect.

布莱恩·托尔金：我们谈到的第一个问题是，必须相互尊重。

Both functions have their time and their place and their skillsets, and you just don't build big businesses of this type without respecting the fact that that both need to exist.

这两个职能都有自己的时间、地点和技能，如果不尊重这两个职能都需要存在的事实，就不可能建立这种类型的大型企业。

The second, particularly on the product and engineering side, is really understanding where and how the technology leverage comes from the business and then being really focused on making sure generally, especially in the earlier days, you are more limited on the technical resourcing side than you might be on the operational resourcing side.

第二个，特别是在产品和工程方面，是真正了解技术杠杆来自业务的来源和方式，然后真正专注于确保一般情况下，特别是在早期，您在技术资源方面比在运营资源方面受到更多限制。

And so how do you be really focused on where to invest your time, effort, and energy technically, which is why most of the engineering effort for Uber was on the dispatching system and the pricing system.

那么，你如何真正专注于在技术上投入时间、精力和精力，这就是为什么 Uber 的大部分工程工作都集中在调度系统和定价系统上。

That's just where the leverage was at the time, given the scarcity of resources.

鉴于资源稀缺，这正是当时的杠杆所在。

Brian Tolkin: And so I think the second one is being really intentional about where those techs are and then being really forthcoming and saying, hey, that means all these other places where yes, it can make things easier, more efficient, et cetera, et cetera.

Brian Tolkin：所以我认为第二个是非常有意识地了解这些技术的所在，然后非常坦率地说，嘿，这意味着所有其他地方，是的，它可以使事情变得更容易，更高效，等等。

We are okay not investing in right now, and that needs to be an explicit decision and very transparent.

我们现在不投资是可以的，这需要一个明确的决定并且非常透明。

But then the last bit I would say is a deep understanding that the real world has entropy and it's hard and it's messy for us at Opendoor, we go into homes, someone may not be home, scheduling may be off, at Uber the driver may cancel the radio GPS.

但我要说的最后一点是深刻理解现实世界是熵的，这对 Opendoor 的我们来说很难而且很混乱，我们走进家中，有人可能不在家，日程安排可能被取消，在 Uber，司机可能会取消无线电 GPS。

All these things happen, right?

所有这些事情都会发生，对吗？

Computers are deterministic, but humans aren't, right?

计算机是确定性的，但人类不是，对吧？

And so building products that have a little bit more flex or a little bit more fail safes in case those things happen becomes a little bit more of a paramount.

因此，构建具有更多灵活性或更多故障保险以防万一发生这些情况的产品变得更加重要。

Brian Tolkin: One other thing, the last thing I would say is I think that the companies evolve as well.

Brian Tolkin：另一件事，我要说的最后一件事是，我认为公司也在不断发展。

So what I talked about at the beginning of Uber being very focused from an engineering and product side on the dispatching system and the pricing system, obviously over time not to evolve now it centralized all of these functions as the company got bigger and more mature and scale and optimization started to be more important and expansion and that Petri dish of trying new stuff and the tools got better and the tech got easier and there was more internal infrastructure.

所以我在 Uber 一开始谈到的，从工程和产品方面非常关注调度系统和定价系统，显然随着时间的推移，现在不再发展，随着公司变得更大、更成熟，规模和优化开始变得更加重要和扩展，它集中了所有这些功能，尝试新东西和工具变得更好，技术变得更容易，并且有更多的内部基础设施。

And so over time things can start one way and shift over time as the business needs.

因此，随着时间的推移，事情可以以一种方式开始，并随着时间的推移根据业务需求而变化。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's actually spend more time there.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我们实际上在那里花更多时间。

You keep saying things that make me want to dig deeper.

你一直说的话让我想更深入地挖掘。

So at Airbnb we went through the same thing where there was all these local ops teams driving supply, finding homes, bringing out the platform, and then there's this tipping point where the product in organic growth or word of mouth ended up driving more and then orders of magnitude more.

因此，在 Airbnb，我们经历了同样的事情，所有这些本地运营团队都在推动供应、寻找房屋、推出平台，然后出现了一个转折点，产品的有机增长或口碑最终推动了更多，然后是数量级的增长。

So there was no need for these folks to spend time doing these things.

所以这些人没有必要花时间做这些事情。

Can you just maybe share an example, either we Opendoor, when you talk about there's a time and a place and a skillset for ops, how that evolved?

您能否分享一个例子，无论是我们 Opendoor，当您谈到操作人员的时间、地点和技能组合时，它是如何演变的？

What was the team doing initially and then what did they end up doing as things grew?

团队最初在做什么，随着事情的发展，他们最终做了什么？

Brian Tolkin: Yeah, I mean, maybe a very easy good example to pick just one part of the Uber process in the early days is at small scale, actually back when it was Uber black drivers, every driver was individually onboarded in a 90 minute to a two-hour in-person in the office onboarding with deep setting of expectations.

Brian Tolkin：是的，我的意思是，也许是一个非常简单的好例子，在早期，只选择 Uber 流程​​的一部分是小规模的，实际上，当 Uber 黑人司机出现时，每个司机都在 90 分钟到两个小时的办公室里单独上岗，带着深刻的期望。

The next version of that...

那个的下一个版本...

So that's obviously very ops driven.

所以这显然是非常受操作驱动的。

The next version of that is a small classroom type setting of three or five or six drivers at a given time.

下一个版本是一个小型教室类型的设置，在给定时间有三名、五名或六名司机。

Also, very ops driven.

而且，非常受操作驱动。

And then as we got into more mass market products like Uber Taxi or UberX, it was like, okay, maybe 20 or 30 at a time.

然后，当我们进入 Uber Taxi 或 UberX 等更多大众市场产品时，就好像，好吧，一次可能有 20 或 30 个。

So now it's a little bit bigger classroom setting.

所以现在教室环境更大了一些。

And we said, okay, let's make a video.

我们说，好吧，让我们制作一个视频。

Instead of giving verbally the same presentation, let's just make an onboarding video and that was the next set of scale, but now suddenly we have a different problem, which is okay, you have to validate all of these credentials.

我们不要口头上进行相同的演示，而是制作一个入门视频，这是下一组规模，但现在突然我们遇到了一个不同的问题，这没关系，您必须验证所有这些凭据。

Brian Tolkin: So most driver's license who they are, all that stuff at one person, easy at three to four at a time, easy, 10 at a time, a little more challenging but fine.

Brian Tolkin：所以大多数驾驶执照都是一个人做的，很容易，一次 3 到 4 个人，很容易，一次 10 个人，稍微有挑战性，但也还好。

At 20 at a time, okay, you're starting to run up onto it now you fast-forward six months and you're doing a thousand a week or whatever, suddenly your system breaks and it's like, okay, we have reached the point where operational system improvements is no longer viable.

一次 20 次，好吧，现在你快进六个月了，你每周做一千次或其他什么，突然你的系统崩溃了，就好像，好吧，我们已经到了操作系统改进不再可行的地步。

So, you say, okay, we have gone from the iteration stage to the scale stage and technology is uniquely good at scaling.

所以，你会说，好吧，我们已经从迭代阶段进入了规模化阶段，而技术在规模化方面有着独特的优势。

So now we say, okay, instead of having a bunch of folks around the world taking pictures of driver's licenses and validating and doing all that stuff, how do we integrate with some type of OCR technology or auto recognition of driver's licenses that feeds to a system that knows what a driver's license is or can do automatic validation and suddenly you've done two things.

所以现在我们说，好吧，我们不是让世界各地的一群人拍摄驾驶执照的照片并验证和做所有这些事情，而是如何与某种类型的 OCR 技术或驾驶执照的自动识别技术集成，该技术将数据提供给一个知道驾驶执照是什么或可以进行自动验证的系统，突然间您就做了两件事。

Brian Tolkin: One, you've scaled your system, and two, you've just created a ton of time for what at the time was probably dozens if not hundreds of people running these onboarding sessions all over the country, the world at the time to do other stuff.

Brian Tolkin：第一，你已经扩展了你的系统，第二，你刚刚为当时可能有数十甚至数百人在全国乃至全世界运行这些入职会议的人创造了大量的时间来做其他事情。

And so now you can level that up and say, okay, do we do more analytics?

现在你可以升级并说，好吧，我们要做更多分析吗？

Do we do more figure out the next process that needs optimization or whatever the case may be in that virtuous cycle just continues.

我们是否需要做更多的工作来找出需要优化的下一个流程，或者无论发生什么情况，良性循环都会继续下去。

Lenny Rachitsky: The way I like to think about this is do things that don't scale and then scale the things that you're doing.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢思考这个问题的方式是先做一些无法规模化的事情，然后再规模化你正在做的事情。

That's the phrase I always come back to.

这就是我经常想起的一句话。

Lenny Rachitsky: This reminds me of a hot take that previous podcast guest shared in a newsletter post Casey Winters.

Lenny Rachitsky：这让我想起了之前的播客嘉宾在 Casey Winters 的时事通讯中分享的一个热门观点。

He talked about that operations is usually, and it's a hot take, that operations is a sign of inefficiency and over time your job is to squeeze that away and make it product software as much as possible.

他谈到，运营通常是一种热门观点，运营是效率低下的标志，随着时间的推移，你的工作就是将其挤出并尽可能使其成为产品软件。

Doesn't mean you always get there.

并不意味着你总是能到达那里。

Thoughts?

想法？

Brian Tolkin: Yeah, I actually don't.

布莱恩·托尔金：是的，实际上我不知道。

Fundamentally, it depends on what the operations is, but I don't fundamentally disagree, but I think that the right lens to think about it is...

从根本上来说，这取决于操作是什么，但我从根本上并不反对，但我认为思考这个问题的正确视角是......

And then those folks can move on to the next challenge.

然后这些人就可以继续迎接下一个挑战。

And so there's always another hill to climb.

所以总是有另一座山需要攀登。

And so I think that was one of the things at Uber and Opendoor where there's this culture of on the ground experimentation that's really helpful where we were just talking about driver onboarding may now be solved with technology so you have a few extra hours a day.

所以我认为这是 Uber 和 Opendoor 的特色之一，那里有一种实地实验的文化，这真的很有帮助，我们刚才谈论的司机入职现在可以通过技术解决，这样你每天就有几个额外的时间。

How do we get better at optimizing the UberX system?

我们如何更好地优化 UberX 系统？

How do you start tinkering with food delivery?

你是如何开始尝试送餐服务的？

How do you start thinking about higher capacity vehicles?

您如何开始考虑更高容量的车辆？

How do you think about better feedback loop for those manual surge pricing toggles that we talked about?

您如何看待我们讨论过的手动激增定价切换的更好反馈循环？

So I generally agree it just generally free across and solve more problems.

所以我总体上同意它只是普遍免费并解决更多问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: It feels like a big part of this is making sure the operations teams understand there's more opportunity, even if this ends up being automated, your job is not going to go away.

Lenny Rachitsky：感觉其中很大一部分是确保运营团队了解有更多机会，即使最终实现自动化，你的工作也不会消失。

We're going to find something new to try and experiment and do things that don't skip.

我们将找到一些新的东西来尝试和实验，并做一些不会跳过的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

Going a completely different direction.

走向完全不同的方向。

Lenny Rachitsky: I hear you're very good at product reviews.

Lenny Rachitsky：我听说你非常擅长产品评论。

Lenny Rachitsky: A few people told me this.

Lenny Rachitsky：有几个人告诉我这一点。

I'm curious how you set up a product review and any things you've learned, any tips for how to run an effective product review?

我很好奇你是如何设置产品评论的，以及你学到了什么，关于如何进行有效的产品评论有什么建议吗？

Brian Tolkin: That's very whoever mentioned that.

Brian Tolkin：这就是提到这一点的人。

But yes, big fan of doing them actually in particular to maybe bridge the conversations in companies that have ops driven cadences or start out very ops driven because the cadences can sometimes be different.

但是，是的，我非常喜欢这样做，特别是为了在那些有运营驱动节奏的公司或一开始就非常运营驱动的公司中架起对话的桥梁，因为节奏有时可能不同。

And so the operational cadences that you might have something like a WVRA weekly business review may not be conducive to always picking your head up and saying like, Hey, where's the product going on a slightly longer timeframe.

因此，WVRA 每周业务审查之类的运营节奏可能不利于您始终抬起头说，嘿，产品在稍长的时间范围内运行在哪里。

And so I think product reviews in general for all companies are probably really helpful, but actually in particular for some of the product and operations led companies.

因此，我认为产品评论对于所有公司来说可能都非常有帮助，但实际上对于一些以产品和运营为主导的公司来说尤其如此。

In terms of things I've learned, I think being really intentional about what the goals are, I think it's okay to say that there are two goals, a goal of accountability and inform to an audience.

就我所学到的东西而言，我认为真正有意地了解目标是什么，我认为可以说有两个目标，一个是问责制目标，一个是向观众提供信息。

Brian Tolkin: But also most importantly, I think this is the primary goal is to help make the product better, to help the teams think through a problem and to have that, again, back to our earliest conversation, be a very intellectual conversation about the work and how to make the product better and not super scary.

Brian Tolkin：但最重要的是，我认为主要目标是帮助改进产品，帮助团队思考问题，并再次回到我们最早的对话，就工作以及如何使产品变得更好而不是超级可怕进行非常理智的对话。

Product reviews hopefully are not feeling like firing squads.

希望产品评论不会让人感觉像行刑队。

That's a scary environment to be in and not necessarily one that's conducive to how do we make the product better.

这是一个可怕的环境，而且不一定有利于我们如何改进产品。

Obviously sometimes the conversations have to get a little intense, but in general that's what we're shooting for is something that helps the team go back and think through how to make the product better.

显然，有时对话必须变得有点激烈，但总的来说，我们的目标是帮助团队回过头来思考如何使产品变得更好。

Lenny Rachitsky: So the two goals you try to communicate for your product reviews, accountability slash informing people what's happening, but also just like we are here to make the product better and setting that context.

Lenny Rachitsky：因此，您在产品评论中尝试传达的两个目标是，问责制削减，告知人们正在发生的事情，但也就像我们来这里是为了让产品变得更好并设置背景。

Yep.

是的。

Is there anything you'd do specifically to make it not feel like a firing squad?

有什么你会特别做的事情来让它不那么像行刑队吗？

Like you're coming in here to be attacked and criticized?

就像你来这里是为了受到攻击和批评吗？

Do you set context at the beginning of the meeting?

您是否在会议开始时设定背景？

Is this just a part of the culture?

这只是文化的一部分吗？

Brian Tolkin: Yeah, I think definitely part of the culture, but also I am a firm believer in general that the people closest to the problems also have the best context to solve that problem.

布莱恩·托尔金：是的，我认为这绝对是文化的一部分，但我也坚信，最接近问题的人也拥有解决该问题的最佳背景。

And so as a more senior voice in the room, often the job is probing, asking questions, throwing out ideas in a way that says like, hey, this is an idea.

因此，作为房间里更高级的声音，我们的工作通常是探索、提出问题、抛出想法，就像说，嘿，这是一个想法。

This is not a mandate, this is a thought.

这不是命令，这是一个想法。

And if there's context missing that would inform the product direction, then providing that context in not a question asking sense, but hey, this is context that you might not be aware of.

如果缺少可以告知产品方向的上下文，那么以不是提问的方式提供该上下文，但是嘿，这是您可能不知道的上下文。

And so I think it's all in how you show up as a leader and what that looks like in terms of probing and pushing the team on dimensions that they may not be thinking about.

所以我认为这一切都取决于你作为领导者的表现，以及在探索和推动团队达到他们可能没有考虑到的维度方面的表现。

And then understanding that the team is bringing a perspective that you don't have, which is they think about this problem 40, 50, 60 hours a week, and you might think about this problem three hours a week.

然后了解团队带来了你没有的观点，那就是他们每周思考这个问题 40、50、60 个小时，而你可能每周思考这个问题三个小时。

So you bring them a breath, the team brings a depth in haven't been there yet.

所以你给他们带来了喘息的机会，团队带来了前所未有的深度。

Lenny Rachitsky: I don't know if you heard Dharmesh Shah's episode or his thing on flash tags.

Lenny Rachitsky：我不知道你是否听过 Dharmesh Shah 的剧集或他在 Flash 标签上的作品。

Have you seen this?

你见过这个吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

He has a whole system.

他有一个完整的系统。

So you talked about how as a leader you want people to not take everything you tell them as feedback as I need to do this.

所以你谈到，作为一名领导者，你希望人们不要把你告诉他们的一切都当作反馈，因为我需要这样做。

So he has a whole set of hashtags that communicate how important this is to him from hashtag FYI to suggestion, to a plea.

因此，他有一整套主题标签，从主题标签“仅供参考”到建议，再到恳求，传达了这对他的重要性。

Brian Tolkin: This was actually explained to me.

Brian Tolkin：这实际上是向我解释的。

I don't think I've seen the original source, so I'll go back and watch it, but this was explained to me as I'm actually a big fan.

我认为我没有看过原始来源，所以我会回去看它，但这是向我解释的，因为我实际上是它的忠实粉丝。

I think that's great.

我认为那太好了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, just get everyone on the same page.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，只要让每个人都达成共识即可。

Okay.

好的。

Maybe one last question here.

也许还有最后一个问题。

Who do you try to invite to product reviews?

您尝试邀请谁参加产品评论？

Do you have any frameworks and ways of thinking of who to invite, who not to invite?

对于邀请谁、不邀请谁，您有什么框架和思考方式吗？

Brian Tolkin: Yeah, good question.

布莱恩·托尔金：是的，好问题。

We, I would say have oscillated over time, but in general, big subscribers of the best conversations happen when they're relatively small, so try and keep it under 10.

我想说，随着时间的推移，我们会出现波动，但一般来说，最佳对话的大订阅者发生在相对较小的时候，所以尽量将其保持在 10 以下。

Could be wide distribution of the document.

该文件可能会被广泛分发。

The artifacts created are actually really powerful and they're powerful for the whole team to understand.

创建的工件实际上非常强大，并且对于整个团队来说都很强大。

And secret power is they're very powerful for new people who are onboarding to be like, here are the last 20 product reviews, you'll get a pretty good idea of what's going on.

秘密的力量是，它们对于刚入职的新人来说非常强大，比如，这里是最近 20 条产品评论，你会对正在发生的事情有一个很好的了解。

But generally the conversation itself try and be relatively tight.

但一般来说，谈话本身会尽量保持相对紧张。

We try to keep it under 10.

我们努力将其控制在 10 以下。

Lenny Rachitsky: And these artifacts, you mean the recordings of the meeting that people can watch or?

Lenny Rachitsky：这些文物，你是指人们可以观看的会议录音还是？

Brian Tolkin: Yeah.

布莱恩·托尔金：是的。

Or just the document depends on what the company culture is, whether you want to record it or just have the document either way.

或者只是文档取决于公司文化是什么，无论您是想记录它还是只是拥有该文档。

Lenny Rachitsky: And then is there some specific cadence you operate on?

Lenny Rachitsky：那么您的操作有什么特定的节奏吗？

Is it like a weekly product review that people can sign up for?

这就像人们可以报名参加的每周产品评论吗？

Does every team, how do you like to set this up the cadence?

每个团队，你喜欢如何设置节奏？

Brian Tolkin: Yeah, obviously it scales are with the size of the company.

Brian Tolkin：是的，显然它的规模与公司的规模有关。

For us right now, what's working well is signup cadence.

目前对我们来说，有效的是注册节奏。

We have two slots a week that anyone can sign up for as their product area needs it.

我们每周有两个时段，任何人都可以根据其产品领域的需要进行报名。

And then if there's something that we would love to see that we haven't seen in a bit, we do a little bit of all in telling to make sure that the work is generally cycling through on a quarterly basis.

然后，如果有一些我们希望看到但很久没有看到的东西，我们会做一些事情来告知，以确保工作通常按季度循环进行。

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下一个时代的公司需要的不仅仅是一个适合所有客户需求的不灵活的 CRM。

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Lenny Rachitsky: Adjacent topic.

Lenny Rachitsky：相邻主题。

I hear you're a big fan of drops to be done, which is okay, so it's a fun recurring topic on this podcast.

我听说你非常喜欢做滴滴，这没关系，所以这是这个播客上一个有趣的反复出现的话题。

We've had many people that love it, many people that hate it.

我们有很多人喜欢它，也有很多人讨厌它。

I love seeing both sides of it.

我喜欢看到它的两面。

I love that you find it helpful and you implement it at Opendoor.

我很高兴您发现它很有帮助并且您在 Opendoor 上实施了它。

I'd love to hear just how you actually apply it at Opendoor, what you've learned about how to apply jobs to be done effectively.

我很想听听您如何在 Opendoor 实际应用它，以及您学到了如何有效地完成工作。

Brian Tolkin: Yeah.

布莱恩·托尔金：是的。

I think like all frameworks, the right answer is to pick your set of frameworks, have more tools in your toolbox, and then actually understand when and how to apply them.

我认为像所有框架一样，正确的答案是选择您的框架集，在您的工具箱中拥有更多工具，然后真正了解何时以及如何应用它们。

So we try to avoid being a hammer and everything's a nail.

所以我们尽量避免成为锤子而一切都是钉子。

We try to for course the framework if it's not working.

如果框架不起作用，我们当然会尝试它。

But I think what I really like about it is it forces you to put yourself in the customer's shoes.

但我认为我真正喜欢它的是它迫使你设身处地为客户着想。

I think in a slightly deeper way and be a little bit more empathetic when I think about building at Opendoor versus say building at Uber or when you are building at Airbnb is we are not...

当我考虑在 Opendoor 进行建设，而不是在 Uber 进行建设，或者当你在 Airbnb 进行建设时，我会以更深入的方式进行思考，并且更加具有同理心，我们不是……

Most people at Opendoor, we don't have homes to sell every week or every month, nor do we buy homes every week or every month.

Opendoor 的大多数人，我们不是每周或每月都有房子要出售，也不是每周或每月都买房。

On average in the US is something people do once every seven years.

在美国，人们平均每七年就会做一次事情。

Brian Tolkin: I'm sure the average at Opendoor is something similar, and so it's a little bit harder to be a customer.

Brian Tolkin：我确信 Opendoor 的平均水平与此类似，因此成为客户有点困难。

I took Uber every day.

我每天都打 Uber。

You probably use Airbnb a number of times a year.

您可能每年都会使用 Airbnb 多次。

And so in some sense for some of those companies, you can bill for yourself, you would intuit the job to be done because you're just doing it for yourself.

因此，从某种意义上来说，对于其中一些公司来说，您可以为自己开具账单，您会凭直觉知道要完成的工作，因为您只是为自己做这件事。

We don't necessarily have that context.

我们不一定有这样的背景。

And so a framework that forces us to be really thoughtful and intentional about how a customer might perceive our product is really helpful.

因此，一个迫使我们真正深思熟虑、有意识地思考客户如何看待我们的产品的框架确实很有帮助。

The other thing that I like about it is the canonical version of it encourages you to think about the context in which the user's operating or the other things outside of your product that they might be going through.

我喜欢它的另一件事是它的规范版本鼓励您思考用户操作的上下文或他们可能正在经历的产品之外的其他事情。

Brian Tolkin: And in our case, the home buying or selling journey often is a certainly multi-week, if not multi-month or multi quarter journey with a lot of complexity and a lot of conversations outside of our product.

Brian Tolkin：在我们的例子中，房屋购买或销售过程通常是一个持续数周甚至数月或多个季度的过程，其中包含很多复杂性以及我们产品之外的大量对话。

You may be talking to an agent, you may be talking to a friend, you may be driving around the city trying to find a house, and the framework is very flexible and encouraging of saying what is actually the job to be done of this user when they're thinking about our product and what is the context in which they're operating.

您可能正在与代理商交谈，您可能正在与朋友交谈，您可能正在城市中开车试图寻找房子，并且该框架非常灵活且令人鼓舞，可以说明该用户在考虑我们的产品时实际上需要做什么以及他们的操作环境是什么。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'd love to go one level deeper to talk about how you actually implement it.

Lenny Rachitsky：我很想更深入地讨论一下您实际上是如何实现它的。

Do you have templates of, you have a startup project as a blank, I blank, blank, blank?

您是否有模板，您有一个空白的启动项目，我空白，空白，空白？

How do you...

你怎么...

Brian Tolkin: I would say we're medium rigorous on template standardization or adherence.

Brian Tolkin：我想说我们在模板标准化或遵守方面处于中等严格的程度。

So we do have a template, the standard product review template talks about jobs to be done and has a section for what is the problem statement and what are the jobs to be done.

所以我们确实有一个模板，标准产品评审模板讨论了要完成的工作，并且有一个部分介绍了问题陈述和要完成的工作。

Lenny Rachitsky: And this is a doc that when you're coming to a product review, the person running it and coming is filling out this document?

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一份文档，当您进行产品审查时，运行该文档并过来的人正在填写这份文档？

Brian Tolkin: Correct, pre-filling it up, sorry, pre-filling it out.

Brian Tolkin：正确，预先填写，抱歉，预先填写。

And again, I think we are not sticklers about always using that template, but I think the beauty of a template is yes, it sets expectations of what you expect, but it's also just easier often for people to be able to work off something.

再说一次，我认为我们并不坚持总是使用该模板，但我认为模板的美妙之处在于，它设定了您所期望的期望，但人们通常也更容易能够完成某些工作。

And so yeah, it's part of our product review template and then part of our planning process as well.

所以，是的，它是我们产品审核模板的一部分，也是我们规划流程的一部分。

Because we've used it for a while.

因为我们已经使用了一段时间了。

I think there's been an internalization of the culture where people will also just start commenting about it or writing about it and saying, hey, what is the job to be done here?

我认为这种文化已经内化，人们也会开始评论它或写下它并说，嘿，这里要做的工作是什么？

Or what is the user trying to do?

或者说用户想要做什么？

Which is maybe another colloquial phrase in it.

这可能是其中的另一个口语短语。

And so, yeah, I think there's a cultural seeping that has happened.

所以，是的，我认为已经发生了文化渗透。

Lenny Rachitsky: From memory, just what is in this template.

Lenny Rachitsky：凭记忆，这个模板中的内容就是这样。

So what's the phrasing that you try to use for setting up a problem?

那么你尝试使用什么措辞来提出问题呢？

Brian Tolkin: Yeah, yeah.

布莱恩·托尔金：是的，是的。

I mean, the specific framing, I would have to go remind myself on the template itself, but generally it looks like context, problem, potential solution, risks, risks/premortal and measurement of success.

我的意思是，具体的框架，我必须在模板本身上提醒自己，但通常它看起来像背景、问题、潜在的解决方案、风险、风险/前生和成功的衡量标准。

And then we also try to bucket our product reviews by stage.

然后我们还尝试分阶段对我们的产品评论进行分类。

So you could be in the ideation stage, which might look very different than at the very end of the process.

因此，您可能处于构思阶段，这可能看起来与流程最后阶段有很大不同。

Like, Hey, we're getting ready to ship speak now forever hold your piece.

就像，嘿，我们正准备发货，现在请永远保留您的作品。

Those two artifacts will also be very different.

这两个文物也将有很大不同。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

So it's not as a blank the standard jobs to be done language, it's not exactly how you implement it's more just make sure we're thinking of it what is the problem for the customer?

因此，它不是一个空白的标准工作语言，也不完全是你如何实施它，更多的是确保我们正在考虑客户的问题是什么？

What is the context of their problem?

他们的问题的背景是什么？

Brian Tolkin: Correct.

布莱恩·托尔金：正确。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah, we're not math living our template.

是的，我们没有按照我们的数学模板生活。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，太棒了。

Any other tips or lessons about just working well with this concept of jobs to be done?

关于如何很好地运用这种待完成的工作概念，还有其他建议或教训吗？

Maybe when you come into Opendoor and like, hey everyone, we're going to be thinking this way.

也许当你进入 Opendoor 时，你会说，嘿，大家，我们会这样想。

Is there anything there that would be useful to people if they're trying to operate this way?

如果人们尝试以这种方式进行操作，有什么对他们有用的东西吗？

Brian Tolkin: Recognizing that correctly implementing a framework, any framework, but if you don't in particular, we can talk about takes a little bit of time and getting used to and understanding.

Brian Tolkin：认识到正确实现一个框架，任何框架，但如果你不特别这样做，我们可以讨论需要一点时间来习惯和理解。

And so I don't think you can just like, okay, we're going to make the template and then that makes the content better.

所以我认为你不能只是喜欢，好吧，我们将制作模板，然后使内容变得更好。

That just takes people's content and they wedge it into the template.

这只是将人们的内容融入到模板中。

It's actually the cultural internalization of like, hey, this might be phrased as the job to be done, but is this actually the job to be done?

这实际上是文化内化，嘿，这可能被表述为要完成的工作，但这实际上是要完成的工作吗？

Let's talk about why the customer might be in that situation or not be in that situation.

让我们谈谈为什么客户可能处于这种情况或不处于这种情况。

Or I think the job to be done might actually be something else.

或者我认为要完成的工作实际上可能是其他事情。

Brian Tolkin: Or you might say, hey, the job to be done is maybe an early day version would be the job to be done is to get an offer from Opendoor.

Brian Tolkin：或者你可能会说，嘿，要做的工作可能是早期版本，要做的工作就是获得 Opendoor 的报价。

And it's like, well kind of, but the broader job to be done might be price discovery for the customer.

这就像，嗯，但更广泛的工作可能是为客户发现价格。

And so you can have a rich conversation where it's like, well, one might be a little bit influenced by our business goals.

因此，您可以进行丰富的对话，就像，嗯，我们的业务目标可能会有点影响。

I don't think you just run around and people are like, yeah, I'm going to sell my house, but my goal is to get an offer from Opendoor.

我不认为你只是跑来跑去，人们就会说，是的，我要卖掉我的房子，但我的目标是获得 Opendoor 的报价。

And so that's like, okay, the template might be the same, but it's actually the content that takes a little bit of cultural instantiation.

所以这就好像，好吧，模板可能是一样的，但实际上内容需要一点文化实例化。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

And it sounds like people talk from what is the job to be done that feels like a core part of the way you think about it.

听起来人们谈论要完成的工作感觉就像你思考它的方式的核心部分。

What is the job to be done?

要做的工作是什么？

Just that language alone feels really powerful.

仅凭这种语言就感觉非常强大。

Is there a resource or a book that you point people to help your team learn about the jobs to be done work?

您是否有资源或书籍可以帮助您的团队了解需要完成的工作？

Is there one thing you find useful?

有没有一件事你觉得有用？

Brian Tolkin: Not about jobs to be done.

Brian Tolkin：不是关于要完成的工作。

I do a lot more pointing people towards internal examples of where I saw other PMs maybe do as well or blogs and stuff.

我做了更多的事情，向人们指出我看到其他产品经理也可能这样做的内部例子，或者博客之类的东西。

But your blog is a column when we pass around, not about jobs to done, but just about many topics.

但你的博客是我们传递的一个专栏，不是关于要完成的工作，而是关于许多主题。

Lenny Rachitsky: I really appreciate that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我真的很感激。

I was also thinking as you were talking, you're friends with Kayvon and jobs to be done on Twitter was quite the journey for them, traumatic for a lot of people.

当你说话时，我也在想，你是 Kayvon 的朋友，在 Twitter 上完成的工作对他们来说是一段漫长的旅程，对很多人来说都是痛苦的。

I think it went very far to the extreme of the-

我认为它已经走到了极端——

Brian Tolkin: Yeah.

布莱恩·托尔金：是的。

I think they're more dogmatic about it.

我认为他们对此更加教条。

Lenny Rachitsky: Very dramatic.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：非常戏剧化。

And so I guess it's a lesson here, maybe don't take it that far.

所以我想这是一个教训，也许不要走那么远。

Brian Tolkin: Yeah.

布莱恩·托尔金：是的。

And I think it probably, and I don't know if Kayvon would agree with this, I imagine he would, the generalized version of you pick the right framework for the right job and if you say there's one framework to rule them all and this is the only framework that works and then of course every problem into it, then we chop.

我认为可能是这样，我不知道 Kayvon 是否会同意这一点，我想他会的，你为正确的工作选择正确的框架，如果你说有一个框架可以统治所有这些，这是唯一有效的框架，然后当然每个问题都会进入其中，然后我们砍掉。

Lenny Rachitsky: The way I think about jobs to be done is exactly the way you're describing it where it's just think from the lens of the job to be done for our customers.

Lenny Rachitsky：我对待完成工作的看法与您所描述的完全一样，只是从为客户完成工作的角度来思考。

So for my newsletter, what is the job to be done of my newsletter to help you become better at your job as a product person building product.

那么，对于我的时事通讯，我的时事通讯需要做哪些工作来帮助您更好地完成作为产品人员构建产品的工作。

And that actually ends up being really helpful.

这实际上最终非常有帮助。

And it feels like that's the way you guys think about it at opening.

感觉你们一开始就是这么想的。

Brian Tolkin: Yeah, absolutely.

布莱恩·托尔金：是的，绝对是。

And you're crushing it by the way.

顺便说一句，你正在粉碎它。

Lenny Rachitsky: Thank you.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：谢谢。

So are you.

你也是。

You talked about, I'm going to go into another question to deflect your compliment.

你谈到，我要进入另一个问题来转移你的赞美。

You mentioned that Uber, there's a million transactions happening every second, it's massive scale.

你提到Uber，每秒发生一百万笔交易，规模巨大。

Opendoor is completely different.

Opendoor 则完全不同。

You have very few very large transactions.

您的非常大的交易很少。

Yeah.

是的。

I'm curious how you do experiments, if you do experiments, do you do A/B tests?

我很好奇你是如何做实验的，如果你做实验，你会做A/B测试吗？

What have you learned about just how to think through low sample sizes plus A/B testing?

关于如何思考小样本量和 A/B 测试，您学到了什么？

Brian Tolkin: Yeah, very hot topic of conversation.

Brian Tolkin：是的，这是非常热门的话题。

We do A/B test.

我们进行 A/B 测试。

It is obviously the gold standard.

这显然是黄金标准。

And so we do as much as we can.

所以我们会尽我们所能。

Of A/B testing there are parts of our funnel and flow that have more volume than others.

在 A/B 测试中，我们的漏斗和流程的某些部分比其他部分具有更多的容量。

So top of quality testing easier than down funnels, A/B testing purely product or tech features easier than A/B testing processes, operational processes.

因此，顶部质量测试比向下漏斗更容易，纯粹产品或技术功能的 A/B 测试比 A/B 测试流程、操作流程更容易。

But you're totally right.

但你是完全正确的。

We are not doing hundreds of millions of transactions a year.

我们每年不会进行数亿笔交易。

And so experimentation can be more challenging.

因此实验可能更具挑战性。

And so I think one way to think about it is A, acknowledge the problem, which just to say don't, and we've made this mistake many, many times, but don't just force yourself into A/B testing without running the power analysis and say like, hey, are we going to get results?

所以我认为思考这个问题的一种方法是 A，承认这个问题，这只是说不要，我们已经犯了很多很多次这个错误，但不要在不运行功率分析的情况下强迫自己进行 A/B 测试，然后说，嘿，我们会得到结果吗？

What is the size that will detect and what is the runtime of that experiment?

将检测的大小是多少以及该实验的运行时间是多少？

Brian Tolkin: And be honest, is that acceptable?

Brian Tolkin：老实说，这是可以接受的吗？

A second lesson here, is there certain experiments that are important enough and it's hard to triangulate signal in any other way that you may say a six-month runtime is an acceptable outcome and we are going to start it in June and we will be smarter for it for 2025 planning and we're going to set it and forget it and we're grateful we did, and that's okay.

这里的第二个教训是，某些实验足够重要，很难以任何其他方式对信号进行三角测量，你可能会说六个月的运行时间是一个可以接受的结果，我们将于 6 月开始，我们将在 2025 年规划中更加明智，我们将设置它并忘记它，我们很感激我们这样做了，那没关系。

But the only mistake here is thinking you'll get an answer in a month when you won't, and then pretending you do and then waking up a month later and being like, "Well, it was insignificant and this and that." We could have known that.

但这里唯一的错误是认为你会在一个月内得到答案，而实际上你不会，然后假装你得到了，然后一个月后醒来，然后说，“好吧，这没什么意义，这样那样。”我们本可以知道这一点。

And then the third thing is, and experimentation is all about increasing your conviction in the problem or the solution.

第三件事是，实验就是为了增强你对问题或解决方案的信念。

So the generalized version of the statement is, if there are parts of your funnel or flow that are low end and you can't run a canonical A/B test, how might you otherwise increase your conviction in the solution that you're building?

因此，该声明的概括版本是，如果您的漏斗或流程的某些部分处于低端，并且您无法运行规范的 A/B 测试，那么您如何才能增强对正在构建的解决方案的信心？

Brian Tolkin: And there turns out there are a decent number of other ways to do that.

Brian Tolkin：事实证明，还有很多其他方法可以做到这一点。

The first best, most obvious is talk to more customers.

第一个最好、最明显的就是与更多客户交谈。

But there are other statistical techniques that again, aren't as rigorous or good, but may be possible.

但还有其他统计技术虽然不那么严格或良好，但可能是可行的。

You may be able to use observational data, you review with diff and diff, you may be able to look at sister cities or twin cities.

您也许可以使用观察数据，通过 diff 和 diff 进行审查，您也许可以查看姐妹城市或友好城市。

You may be able to segment by geo, you may be able to reduce your power and say, hey, we're going to run at 80% confidence for all of our experiments instead of this traditional 95% because that's a worthy trade-off.

您也许能够按地理区域进行细分，您也许能够降低您的功率，然后说，嘿，我们将以 80% 的置信度运行所有实验，而不是传统的 95%，因为这是值得权衡的。

And if we're wrong one more time out of 10, that's okay.

如果我们有十分之一的错误，那也没关系。

Brian Tolkin: You can do a long-term holdout to match your intuition.

Brian Tolkin：你可以根据你的直觉进行长期坚持。

And so there's a lot of other techniques to hone your intuition.

因此，还有很多其他技巧可以磨练你的直觉。

There's a lot of other techniques to build conviction and confidence.

还有很多其他技巧可以建立信念和信心。

And so we try to be very creative on doing that.

因此，我们在这方面努力发挥创意。

And then the last bit I would say is if you're not going to get significance, if there's no other techniques at your disposal, then sometimes you just got to trust your intuition and ship it.

我要说的最后一点是，如果你无法获得意义，如果没有其他技术可供你使用，那么有时你只能相信你的直觉并交付它。

And if that's what you believe, then that's what you believed and you shouldn't spend time trying to get false precision.

如果这就是你所相信的，那么这就是你所相信的，你不应该花时间试图获得错误的精确度。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to spend more time on that last point, but real quick, the power analysis you talked about, there's people, don't know, there's calculators out there that you could just plug in, here's how much traffic I'm getting, here's how much of an impact difference I want to see, here's how long it'll take to find out.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想在最后一点上花更多时间，但很快，你谈到的功率分析，有人不知道，那里有计算器你可以插入，这是我得到的流量，这是我想看到的影响差异有多大，这是找出答案所需的时间。

Brian Tolkin: Yep, exactly.

布莱恩·托尔金：是的，没错。

Totally.

完全。

And some of the calculators are great where you can also plug in the traffic and your acceptable runtime and it will tell you the minimum detectable impact and then you can gut check your own intuition.

有些计算器非常有用，您还可以输入流量和可接受的运行时间，它会告诉您可检测到的最小影响，然后您可以根据自己的直觉进行检查。

So you can play around with that.

所以你可以尝试一下。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

We'll try to link to one of those in the show notes.

我们将尝试链接到演出笔记中的其中之一。

So, on the intuition piece, is there anything more there?

那么，在直觉这块上，还有什么其他的吗？

Just like how you think about when you run the product team, just how you recommend people leverage intuition versus not.

就像你在管理产品团队时的想法一样，就像你如何建议人们利用直觉或不利用直觉一样。

Because some companies are like, we're just going to trust the data.

因为有些公司就像，我们只是相信数据。

I don't really trust your opinion.

我不太相信你的意见。

You don't know this customer exactly.

您并不完全了解这位客户。

You talked about Opendoor, I'm not buying houses myself, so I don't know how much I can trust my intuition.

你谈到Opendoor，我自己不买房，所以我不知道我能在多大程度上相信我的直觉。

Just what's your general advice to your product team of how to think about their intuition and when to rely on it versus not?

您对您的产品团队如何考虑他们的直觉以及何时依赖直觉或何时不依赖直觉有什么一般建议？

Brian Tolkin: So, at Opendoor, for example, I'd say on the relative spectrum, we're quite data-driven.

Brian Tolkin：所以，以 Opendoor 为例，我想说，从相对范围来看，我们是相当数据驱动的。

And then it's when we come into this challenge where we say, okay, that is another technique or tool in the toolbox.

然后，当我们遇到这个挑战时，我们会说，好吧，这是工具箱中的另一种技术或工具。

I think the generalized version of that is customers, products, people can surprise you.

我认为广义的说法是客户、产品、人们可以给你带来惊喜。

And so this happens all the time for people who build products.

对于构建产品的人来说，这种情况经常发生。

I'm sure you've got great stories from Airbnb where you saw something, put it out there just was very-

我相信您在 Airbnb 上看过一些很棒的故事，您看到一些东西，然后把它放在那里，这非常-

Brian Tolkin: All the time.

布莱恩·托尔金：一直都是。

And so I think there's definitely a humility to say if you can, if it's relatively easy to test your assumptions or test your hypotheses.

因此，我认为如果可以的话，如果测试你的假设或测试你的假设相对容易的话，绝对应该谦虚地说。

That is always better to gut check yourself.

最好检查一下自己。

And that takes a little bit of humility to say that, but we've all been wrong plenty of times.

说这句话需要一点谦虚，但我们都犯过很多次错误。

But if that's just not on the table, I think the reality is you can't pretend it is.

但如果这根本没有摆在桌面上，我认为现实是你不能假装它是。

And sometimes you got to use taste and judgment and then you say, okay, what is my conviction level and do I have just medium, low or high conviction?

有时你必须运用品味和判断力，然后你会说，好吧，我的信念水平是多少？我的信念是中等、低还是高度？

And if I have anything low or medium conviction and it's a decision of consequence, I should talk to more customers, check it with another person and see if their intuition matches.

如果我有任何低度或中等信念，并且这是一个重要的决定，我应该与更多的客户交谈，与另一个人核实，看看他们的直觉是否相符。

Something that gets me personally to the high bucket category.

让我个人进入高桶类别的东西。

Brian Tolkin: And then I think the last part, which is some part of experimentation is if you just ship something because it's your intuition or it's where you want to see the product go, do you have a reasonable feedback loop to understand whether or not you are correct?

Brian Tolkin：然后我认为最后一部分，也就是实验的一部分，如果你只是因为你的直觉或者你想看到产品的走向而发布一些东西，你是否有一个合理的反馈循环来了解你是否正确？

So that could be customer support or ticket volume or feature adoption, whatever the case is, it may not be an output metric in the traditional A/B test, but some more rigorous system that says, hey, I had this hypothesis, we just shipped it for x, y, z constraint reason for red.

因此，这可能是客户支持、票务量或功能采用情况，无论是什么情况，它可能不是传统 A/B 测试中的输出指标，而是一些更严格的系统，它说，嘿，我有这个假设，我们只是出于 x、y、z 约束原因将其交付为红色。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think that's awesome advice.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这是很棒的建议。

I agree with everything you're saying.

我同意你所说的一切。

You mentioned this word humility, and it is a good segue to something I want to talk about, which is Zillow.

你提到了谦逊这个词，这是我想谈论的一个很好的话题，那就是 Zillow。

One of the most interesting things that's happened in your space is Zillow basically decided, hey, we're just going to do what Opendoor is doing, they launched it, you're basically frenemies for a while, and then they're like, no, it's not working.

在你的空间中发生的最有趣的事情之一是 Zillow 基本上决定了，嘿，我们只是要做 Opendoor 正在做的事情，他们推出了它，你们在一段时间内基本上是亦敌亦友的，然后他们说，不，这不起作用。

Now you partner and now you work with Zillow on this stuff.

现在你是合作伙伴，现在你和 Zillow 一起做这件事。

So are you able to share what went down there with the story of what happened, how it went, and where things are at now?

那么您能分享一下那里发生的事情以及发生的事情、进展如何以及现在的情况吗？

Brian Tolkin: Yeah, I mean we do partner with Zillow.

Brian Tolkin：是的，我的意思是我们确实与 Zillow 合作。

Zillow's been a fantastic partner for us and we've really enjoyed a working relationship with them.

Zillow 一直是我们出色的合作伙伴，我们非常享受与他们的工作关系。

I think when you think about it, they have tremendous amount of reach and audience and all these online platforms have tremendous reach and audience.

我想，当你仔细想想，他们拥有巨大的影响力和受众，所有这些在线平台都拥有巨大的影响力和受众。

And we happen to have a fairly unique selling solution.

我们恰好有一个相当独特的销售解决方案。

And so there's a nice, not to use a business school word, but there's a nice synergy so to speak, between a high intended audience who's doing a lot of browsing and searching and discovery and starting their process on one of these online platforms and what we offer, which is transaction services that allow people to actually move particularly on the seller side.

因此，虽然不是用商学院的术语，但可以说，在进行大量浏览、搜索和发现并在这些在线平台之一上开始他们的流程的高目标受众与我们提供的交易服务之间存在着很好的协同作用，交易服务使人们能够真正移动，特别是在卖方方面。

And so there's just a pretty nice symbiotic relationship there with the Zillow's and the regimens of the world.

因此，Zillow 和世界养生法之间存在着非常好的共生关系。

And so both of those have been great partners for us.

因此，他们都是我们伟大的合作伙伴。

Lenny Rachitsky: What do you think Zillow maybe underestimated or didn't get about the space that made it harder than they anticipated?

Lenny Rachitsky：您认为 Zillow 可能低估了或者没有了解这个空间，导致事情比他们预期的更加困难？

That seems obvious.

这似乎是显而易见的。

Of course, let's go down funnel, let's just do it all.

当然，让我们沿着漏斗走下去，让我们把这一切都做完。

And they're like, "Oh, shit, not working." What do you think they didn't get or what do you think they missed?

他们会说，“哦，糟糕，没用。”您认为他们没有得到什么或者您认为他们错过了什么？

Brian Tolkin: I guess continuing on the humility point, I won't necessarily pretend to be in their shoes, but I will say the business is challenging and it's complex from a number of different dimensions.

Brian Tolkin：我想继续谦虚一点，我不一定会假装站在他们的立场上，但我会说这项业务具有挑战性，并且从许多不同的维度来看都很复杂。

It's not a traditional software only product, but you have to be really good at pricing.

它不是传统的纯软件产品，但您必须非常擅长定价。

You have to be really good at product, you have to be really good at the operations.

你必须非常擅长产品，你必须非常擅长运营。

You have to be really disciplined at risk.

你必须在风险中真正遵守纪律。

You have to be really good in the capital markets.

你必须非常擅长资本市场。

And so you have to put all of these functions together to build a vertically integrated product.

因此，您必须将所有这些功能放在一起来构建垂直集成的产品。

And that's the reality.

这就是现实。

And so that is something that's been in Opendoor's DNA from day one because we started with a vertically integrated product.

因此，从第一天起，这就是 Opendoor 的 DNA，因为我们从垂直整合的产品开始。

And so we can't deliver unless we have all of those things.

因此，除非我们拥有所有这些东西，否则我们无法交付。

Right?

正确的？

And so I think that's something that continues to help us to this day, is that vertical integration requires all of those pieces coming together.

所以我认为，直到今天，垂直整合需要所有这些部分整合在一起，这仍然对我们有帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: That makes a lot of sense, and I think it's a good reminder of there are adjacent markets and businesses that always feel like, "Oh, we could expand to that someday." Such a big opportunity, this business could be so much bigger.

Lenny Rachitsky：这很有道理，我认为这很好地提醒人们，相邻的市场和企业总是感觉“哦，有一天我们可以扩展到这一点。”这么大的机会，这个生意可以做得更大。

And then you realize your business is completely not set up to operate this way.

然后您意识到您的企业完全不适合以这种方式运营。

Zillow is very software driven, just I am not going to simplify what they do, but it's a website, very software.

Zillow 是非常软件驱动的，只是我不会简化他们所做的事情，但它是一个网站，非常软件。

And obviously as we talked about Opendoor, a huge operational component.

显然，正如我们谈论的 Opendoor，它是一个巨大的运营组件。

And then as you said, the pricing piece and the debt stuff.

然后正如你所说，定价部分和债务问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

So I think it's a really good reminder that just when you're taking on something completely different, it may not fit into the way your company operates and partnering makes sense.

因此，我认为这是一个很好的提醒，即当您从事完全不同的事情时，它可能不适合您公司的运营方式和合作方式。

Anything else there that's interesting to share around the Zillow thing?

关于 Zillow 的事情还有什么有趣的事情可以分享吗？

I guess one is maybe it was just like, I imagine it was very stressful.

我想其中之一可能就是，我想这压力很大。

Zillow's getting into it.

Zillow 正在介入其中。

"Oh, shit what are we going to do?

“哦，该死，我们该怎么办？

They got all the traffic." Yeah, anything there?

他们获得了所有的流量。”是啊，那里有什么吗？

Brian Tolkin: Yeah.

布莱恩·托尔金：是的。

I mean, it's certainly stressful.

我的意思是，这确实有压力。

I think in general we try to live by whether Zillow or anybody else being competition aware, but not necessarily competition focused.

我认为总的来说，无论是 Zillow 还是其他任何人，我们都试图以竞争意识为基础，但不一定以竞争为中心。

And the reality is vast, vast in our space.

现实在我们的空间中是广阔的。

A vast majority of people still move the traditional way.

绝大多数人仍然以传统方式出行。

And so this isn't something where it's like the size of the prize isn't particularly large enough short or anything like that.

所以这并不是奖品的大小不是特别大、足够短或类似的事情。

The reality is it's the largest asset classroom in the United States, and if we just stay super focused on, hey, who are the customers that we serve really well that we talk to every day, there's a little bit of confidence that comes from being able to stay focused on that regardless of the competitive environment, again, because it's not like the market is fully saturated.

现实是，它是美国最大的资产教室，如果我们继续超级专注于，嘿，我们每天与之交谈的客户是谁，我们服务得非常好，那么无论竞争环境如何，我们都会有一点信心，因为市场还没有完全饱和。

Brian Tolkin: This is the same thing back in the Uber days as well.

Brian Tolkin：这在 Uber 时代也是一样的。

It's like transportation is almost infinitely large.

这就像运输几乎无限大。

And so, yes, it feels like there's heated competition between Uber and Lester or whatever back in the day, but the reality is there's plenty of trips that happens and people need to get around sitting in plenty of different ways.

所以，是的，感觉 Uber 和 Lester 之间的竞争很激烈，但现实是，有很多旅行发生，人们需要以多种不同的方式出行。

That's neither Uber and more Lyft.

这既不是 Uber，也不是 Lyft。

And staying focused on how you can develop for your customer, I think is the best way to focus.

我认为，专注于如何为客户开发是最好的专注方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's a podcast that will come out before this episode with Jeff Weinstein from Stripe who's building Stripe Atlas.

Lenny Rachitsky：在本集之前将推出一个由 Stripe 的 Jeff Weinstein 主持的播客，他正在构建 Stripe Atlas。

They had a similar experience with AngelList launched a direct competitor to Atlas, and then they realized Atlas is so much better.

他们与AngelList有类似的经历，推出了Atlas的直接竞争对手，然后他们意识到Atlas要好得多。

Forget it.

忘了它。

We're just going to send everyone to Atlas.

我们将把所有人送到阿特拉斯。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yes.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

And I think it's the same exact lesson that if you just stay focused on jobs to be done, let's say, of what is the job to be done and do the best possible job, and knowing that the market is much bigger, that you're not really competing with someone else, another company, it's the default behavior in your case.

我认为这也是同样的教训，如果你只专注于要完成的工作，比如说，要完成的工作是什么，并尽可能做到最好，并且知道市场更大，你并没有真正与其他人、另一家公司竞争，这就是你的默认行为。

It's like people are just buying their house the old-fashioned way.

就像人们只是以老式的方式买房子一样。

That's the actual competition.

这才是真正的竞争。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

Okay.

好的。

So, along these lines, something else I've heard that you're very good at is staying very calm under pressure and staying very levelheaded when things are really crazy.

所以，沿着这些思路，我听说你非常擅长的另一件事是在压力下保持冷静，在事情非常疯狂时保持冷静。

This is something that a lot of people are not good at, especially leaders.

这是很多人不擅长的事情，尤其是领导者。

They stress everyone out things.

他们给每个人带来压力。

You go crazy, they don't create a good vibe.

你会发疯的，他们不会创造良好的氛围。

And then two, something people want to get better.

然后是两个，人们希望变得更好。

Leaders and non-leader are like any lessons, anything you've learned about just how to develop this skill?

领导者和非领导者就像任何课程一样，你学到了什么关于如何发展这项技能的东西？

Brian Tolkin: I think part of this may have been sharpened in the early days of Uber.

Brian Tolkin：我认为其中一部分可能在 Uber 的早期就得到了强化。

Everything felt like a fire drill all the time.

一切都感觉就像一场消防演习。

So the only way to operate, but I think you almost hit the nail on the head in the question, which is a little bit of an intellectual answer of when you reflect the stress onto your teams, everybody tenses up and tightens up.

这是唯一的操作方法，但我认为你在这个问题中几乎击中了要害，这是一个有点理智的答案，当你将压力反映到团队身上时，每个人都会紧张起来。

And so it counterintuitively doesn't produce better outcomes.

因此，与直觉相反，它不会产生更好的结果。

And so I think the other reality to remind ourselves, and these are a bunch of mantras that just are helpful in these moments, is you're never as good as you think you are.

所以我认为提醒自己的另一个现实是，你永远不会像你想象的那么好，这些都是在这些时刻很有帮助的咒语。

You're never as bad as you think you are.

你从来没有你想象的那么糟糕。

And so that more even keeled demeanor, I think allows you to have a clearer head when you're operating under the pressure and to think more clearly.

我认为，这种更加冷静的举止可以让你在压力下工作时头脑更清醒，思考更清晰。

Brian Tolkin: I think one of the maybe least helpful answers, but unfortunately, the reality is you got to be in some stressful situations to also have the perspective that cycles past the things past.

布莱恩·托尔金：我认为这可能是最没有帮助的答案之一，但不幸的是，现实是你必须在一些有压力的情况下才能拥有循环过去的事情的视角。

And that remaining calm is what matters.

保持冷静才是最重要的。

And so maybe the advice there is reflecting on one of these situations happen, exposing yourself to them, not running from them and then learning from them so that the next time it comes around you can say, Hey, I've been here before.

因此，也许那里的建议是反思其中一种情况的发生，将自己暴露在它们面前，而不是逃避它们，然后从中学习，这样下次它出现时你就可以说，嘿，我以前来过这里。

I've slept on the floor in China before launching uberPOOL and thinking we're going to miss a launch deadline.

在推出 uberPOOL 之前，我曾在中国睡过地板，并认为我们会错过推出最后期限。

And what were the tools in my toolbox and my toolkit that showed me that in terms of getting it done or not, and what were the lessons?

我的工具箱和工具包中的工具是什么，可以向我展示是否完成任务，以及有哪些经验教训？

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

So part of it is just go through this experience many times and you'll start to realize, okay, it's not actually going to be as bad as people may think.

所以其中一部分就是多次经历这种经历，你就会开始意识到，好吧，它实际上不会像人们想象的那么糟糕。

You mentioned this toolkit instead of tools.

您提到的是这个工具包而不是工具。

Is there anything else there that you come back to that ends up being helpful?

还有其他什么事情你回来后会对你有帮助吗？

You mentioned this mantra of it's never as bad as people think it is, it is never great as people think it is.

你提到这句口头禅：它永远不会像人们想象的那么糟糕，它永远不会像人们想象的那么伟大。

Brian Tolkin: Yeah, I mean, I think exposing yourself to other people's stories or however you may learn is really, really helpful.

布莱恩·托尔金：是的，我的意思是，我认为让自己接触其他人的故事，或者无论你学到什么，真的非常有帮助。

So again, whether it's your podcast or books or biographies or one of the podcasts that I love is Founders Podcast, which talks about historical famous entrepreneurs.

再说一次，无论是你的播客、书籍、传记，还是我喜欢的播客之一是创始人播客，它谈论历史上著名的企业家。

And obviously these are elevating very famous people already, but there's a lot to learn from a lot of these stories as well and understanding that the journey in pack is nonlinear, it never is for anybody.

显然，这些故事已经提升了非常著名的人物，但从这些故事中也可以学到很多东西，并理解背包之旅是非线性的，它从来不适合任何人。

And so I think being able to expose yourself to other stories that even may if you don't have those personal experiences and then understanding how others navigate.

因此，我认为即使您没有这些个人经历​​，也可以让自己接触其他故事，然后了解其他人如何应对。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

So just hearing of other people's crazy experiences and building on this muscle of like, okay, they've gone through crazy stuff, things work out.

因此，只要听到其他人的疯狂经历，并在这种力量的基础上，好吧，他们经历了疯狂的事情，事情就会解决。

Lenny Rachitsky: We'll make it through.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们会挺过去的。

Okay.

好的。

I have this note here that I think either someone mentioned about you or you may have mentioned that product is finding the kernel of truth in a sea of ambiguity and signals.

我在这里有这样一条说明，我认为有人提到过您，或者您可能已经提到过产品正在模糊和信号的海洋中寻找真理的核心。

Does that mean anything to you?

这对你来说意味着什么吗？

Brian Tolkin: Yeah, absolutely.

布莱恩·托尔金：是的，绝对是。

I mean, I think in most organizations and to do the job effectively, you're going to get signals from everywhere and good ideas come from everywhere.

我的意思是，我认为在大多数组织中，为了有效地完成工作，你会从各个地方收到信号，并且来自各个地方的好想法。

It may be your CS team or CX team.

它可能是您的 CS 团队或 CX 团队。

It may be a customer directly.

可能是直接客户。

It may be a conversation you had.

这可能是你们之间的一次对话。

It may be a YouTube video you watched that sparked an idea.

可能是您观看的 YouTube 视频激发了您的想法。

It may be feedback from an executive, it may be whatever.

它可能是来自高管的反馈，也可能是其他任何东西。

You went out and did a field visit.

你出去实地考察了。

You are going to get a lot of inputs around what people think about your product, what people think you should do next.

您将获得大量有关人们对您产品的看法以及人们认为您下一步应该做什么的意见。

And I think that the core job is to understand what really matters, right?

我认为核心工作是了解真正重要的事情，对吧？

What is noise?

什么是噪音？

What is a good idea, what is a suggestion and what is back to the jobs to be done for what is really going to move the customer forward?

什么是好主意，什么是建议，什么是真正能够推动客户前进的工作？

Brian Tolkin: And unfortunately that means saying no to maybe what sounds like some good ideas along the way, but if you can really figure out this is really what matters, that's the core part of the job.

Brian Tolkin：不幸的是，这意味着对一些听起来不错的想法说不，但如果你能真正弄清楚这才是真正重要的，那就是工作的核心部分。

It dovetails even back to our earlier conversation.

它甚至与我们之前的谈话相吻合。

In the early days of building tech and ops companies is where's the tech leverage?

在建立技术和运营公司的早期，技术杠杆在哪里？

Same question, where's the kernel of what really matters that tech can uniquely solve?

同样的问题，技术能够独特解决的真正重要问题的核心在哪里？

And let's go do that and be comfortable with other fires maybe burning.

让我们去这样做吧，并且对可能燃烧的其他火灾感到满意。

That's what really, really, really matters.

这才是真正、真正、真正重要的事情。

It's a hard discipline.

这是一项严格的纪律。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

If there's not an example, that's totally fine, but when you talk about this finding this kernel where tech could be highly leveraged, is there any example that comes to mind of that working out really well?

如果没有例子，那完全没问题，但是当你谈论发现这个可以高度利用技术的内核时，是否有任何例子可以让你想到效果真的很好？

Brian Tolkin: I mean, I think back in the Uber days, I think it was like, hey, we're not going to build sophisticated tooling infrastructure.

Brian Tolkin：我的意思是，我回想起 Uber 时代，我认为，嘿，我们不会构建复杂的工具基础设施。

We're not going to build a centralized growth team.

我们不会建立一个集中的增长团队。

We're not going to build any of that.

我们不会建造任何这样的东西。

Because if you think about the early Uber network from the simplest form, you've got a rider and a driver and you need to connect them, price the transaction and issue some receipts probably and collect payment.

因为如果你从最简单的形式考虑早期的 Uber 网络，你有一个乘客和一个司机，你需要连接他们，为交易定价并可能开具一些收据并收取付款。

So it's like, okay, do we do that really well?

所以这就像是，好吧，我们做得真的好吗？

And until we do that really well, all the other stuff is noise.

在我们真正做到这一点之前，所有其他的东西都是噪音。

It's immaterial how efficiently we answer support tickets.

我们回复支持请求的效率有多高并不重要。

That's not critical.

这并不重要。

And so now it's super critical, but in the early days it's not that critical.

所以现在它非常重要，但在早期它并不是那么重要。

And even the customer acquisition costs may not be super critical, in this case it's growing rapidly on the things.

甚至客户获取成本可能也不是非常关键，在这种情况下，它在事物上快速增长。

And so pouring fuel on the fire may not be super efficient there.

因此，火上浇油可能不会非常有效。

Brian Tolkin: So I think that's a very good generalized example.

Brian Tolkin：所以我认为这是一个非常好的概括性例子。

One other tip that maybe is helpful that I frankly constantly work on and try to get better at is all these ideas and feedback that comes from everywhere, make sure it's written down for a number of reasons.

坦率地说，另一个可能有帮助的提示是我不断努力并努力变得更好的，那就是来自各地的所有这些想法和反馈，请确保出于多种原因将其写下来。

One, you can then go reference it, but two, part of the job is making sure the people who present those ideas are heard and respected and know that it's at least somewhere where it was considered.

第一，你可以去参考它，但第二，工作的一部分是确保提出这些想法的人得到倾听和尊重，并知道它至少在某个地方被考虑过。

And then you can look at it all and say, okay, but what actually really, really, really, really matters here?

然后你可以看看这一切并说，好吧，但是这里真正、真的、真的、真正重要的是什么？

And yeah, that's another tip.

是的，这是另一个技巧。

Lenny Rachitsky: When you say written down, is there tools you find really helpful here?

Lenny Rachitsky：当你说写下来时，你发现这里有真正有用的工具吗？

Is it just put it in a big doc that we're keeping?

是否只是将其放入我们保留的大文档中？

Is there anything you find to actually operationalize that?

您有什么发现可以实际操作吗？

Brian Tolkin: I've seen different companies do it differently, but wherever you tend to try and keep a backlog, whether that's a Google sheet or your actual backlog in Jira, whatever you use, but at least it feels like, okay, the context was captured, and the idea is there.

Brian Tolkin：我见过不同的公司采取不同的做法，但无论你倾向于尝试保留待办事项，无论是 Google 表格还是 Jira 中的实际待办事项，无论你使用什么，但至少感觉是，好吧，上下文已被捕获，并且想法就在那里。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

I'm going to take us to a recurring segment on this podcast called Failure Corner.

我将带我们进入这个播客中反复出现的部分，称为“失败角”。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there a story you can share of a time you failed in your career had a big failure, and how that experience made you better?

Lenny Rachitsky：您可以分享一个关于您职业生涯中一次重大失败的故事吗？那次经历如何让您变得更好？

Brian Tolkin: We can talk about the very early days of uberPOOL, and the first launch, if you will in San Francisco.

Brian Tolkin：如果您愿意在旧金山的话，我们可以谈谈 uberPOOL 的早期阶段以及首次推出。

So, carpooling product, multiple riders in a Mercedes car.

所以，拼车产品，多名乘客乘坐一辆梅赛德斯汽车。

And we had this idea that it would be effective for commuters, this was very, very early days.

我们的想法是这对通勤者来说是有效的，这是非常非常早的事情。

And so part of the launch was, okay, we're going to beta it with just some popular commuting corridors with specific companies or maybe the marina to Google or whatever and try and match people according to what their companies and that's how we'll drive liquidity.

因此，发布的一部分是，好吧，我们将用一些特定公司的流行通勤走廊或者谷歌的码头或其他什么来测试它，并尝试根据人们的公司来匹配人们，这就是我们推动流动性的方式。

And we very quickly realized that back to what the kernel of truth is here is liquidity is the only thing that matters.

我们很快意识到，回到事实的核心，流动性是唯一重要的事情。

And there just wasn't enough.

但这还不够。

There was never going to be enough to do this company based thing.

做这家公司的事情永远都不够。

That wasn't the strategy that was going towards from us.

这不是我们的战略。

And so the reason I don't know if it's a full failure is maybe this is true all failures, you learn from it, you pivot and you go on to the next thing.

所以我不知道这是否是一次彻底的失败的原因是，也许所有的失败都是如此，你从中学习，你转向，然后你继续下一件事。

Brian Tolkin: And obviously we did that and then spent a lot of our time and effort trying to say, okay, what are the bounds of liquidity and driving liquidity that we can do to understand what the most important or what the limits of the product are.

Brian Tolkin：显然我们做到了这一点，然后花了很多时间和精力试图说，好吧，我们可以做的流动性和驱动流动性的界限是什么，以了解最重要的是什么或产品的限制是什么。

So as an example, we launched and maybe people in San Francisco.

举个例子，我们推出了旧金山的人。

Remember this $5 anywhere in San Francisco, we work for promotion, which is obviously a great deal, obviously costs a lot of money, but the whole idea here is like, oh, okay, if liquidity is what really matters, if we were to juice that and really drive liquidity, how high can our metrics get?

记住在旧金山任何地方这 5 美元，我们都是为了促销而工作，这显然是一笔很大的交易，显然要花很多钱，但这里的整个想法是，哦，好吧，如果流动性真的很重要，如果我们要榨取流动性并真正推动流动性，我们的指标能达到多高？

And then we can go chase more sustainable ways to do that.

然后我们可以去寻找更可持续的方法来做到这一点。

But it was a interesting fail case from launching and learning to say, hey, this initial strategy just isn't going to work, we got to go.

但这是一个有趣的失败案例，从启动和学习说，嘿，这个最初的策略是行不通的，我们必须离开。

And any part of it was a hedging strategy where with a small audience and there'll be a beta population, it's like, well, this one you just got to go.

它的任何部分都是一种对冲策略，其中受众较少，并且会有测试版人群，就像，好吧，你必须离开这个策略。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think a lesson there is also don't overthink it, don't try to get too cute.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这里的一个教训是不要想得太多，不要试图变得太可爱。

Just like we're trying to make a perfect beta test versus realizing, okay, we just need a lot more people in it.

就像我们试图进行完美的 Beta 测试而不是意识到，好吧，我们只是需要更多的人参与其中。

Also, your $5 promotion made me think of the early promotions of the ice cream and the bunnies delivery and all that stuff.

另外，你们的 5 美元促销让我想起了早期的冰淇淋促销和兔子送货等等。

Brian Tolkin: Yeah.

布莱恩·托尔金：是的。

That was by the way, a example of fully distributed, the benefit of having those early Petri dishes.

顺便说一句，这是完全分布式的一个例子，是拥有那些早期培养皿的好处。

Someone a local marketing manager like, Hey, this would be fun.

当地营销经理会说，嘿，这会很有趣。

Yeah, that would be really fun.

是的，那真的很有趣。

The platform can support it.

平台可以支持。

And those promotions were fantastic.

这些促销活动非常棒。

And it started out, I can't remember if the first one was ice cream or puppies, I think it was ice cream.

一开始，我不记得第一个是冰淇淋还是小狗，我想是冰淇淋。

But yeah, branched into all sorts of stuff.

但是，是的，分支到各种各样的东西。

Boats, ice cream, puppies, kittens, I think, and all credit goes to local ideas of inspiration just being focused on trying to grow within.

我认为，船、冰淇淋、小狗、小猫，所有的功劳都归功于当地的灵感理念，只是专注于努力在内心成长。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that we've circled back to the beginning of our conversation, product and ops working together, the benefits of both.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢我们回到对话的开始，产品和运营一起工作，以及两者的好处。

Before we get to a very exciting lightning round, is there anything else that you wanted to share?

在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想分享的吗？

Any last nuggets of wisdom that you think might be useful to people when they're trying to build product companies teams?

当人们试图建立产品公司团队时，您认为最后有哪些智慧可能对他们有用？

Brian Tolkin: This was great.

布莱恩·托尔金：这太棒了。

We covered quite a bit of ground.

我们涵盖了相当多的内容。

I think the only, I don't know if this is a generalized wisdom, but something I've been thinking about as my career has progressed a little bit, especially building out proper organizations, especially as more tools come online, it's very clear that there's different types of PMs and we spent a lot of time talking about once we can operate in the physical and the digital or the product and operations worlds.

我认为唯一的，我不知道这是否是一个普遍的智慧，但随着我的职业生涯取得了一些进展，我一直在思考这一点，特别是建立适当的组织，特别是随着更多工具上线，很明显有不同类型的产品经理，我们花了很多时间讨论一旦我们可以在物理和数字或产品和运营世界中运作。

But even within that, there's more technical PMs who grew up in minute engineering discipline.

但即便如此，也有更多的技术产品经理是在微小的工程学科中成长起来的。

There are people who came from ops and there are people who came from design and grew up in a more user experience background.

有些人来自运维，有些人来自设计，并且在更多的用户体验背景中成长。

Brian Tolkin: And one thing that I've been moved on as is build out the team is thinking similar to a product roadmap is it's not really about is this person good or bad or whatever, it's is this person's skillset and context to the problem that is really needed.

Brian Tolkin：在组建团队时，我一直在思考的一件事与产品路线图类似，它并不是真正关于这个人的好坏或其他什么，而是这个人的技能和真正需要的问题的背景。

And so back to that conversation on, hey, where do we get tech leverage?

回到刚才的对话，嘿，我们从哪里获得技术杠杆？

It's like, Hey, is this person who has this unique skillset as a PM for this problem type?

就像，嘿，这个人作为该问题类型的产品经理拥有独特的技能吗？

I don't know if that's helpful, but it's something I've been spending a lot of time thinking about, especially this view job posting niche view product manager.

我不知道这是否有帮助，但这是我花了很多时间思考的事情，尤其是这个视图职位发布利基视图产品经理。

Or it's actually like, well, how can we be a little bit more thoughtful about what the actual skillset needs off this type of team?

或者实际上，我们如何才能更深入地考虑此类团队的实际技能需求？

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

It's like a person product fit.

这就像一个人的产品契合。

Lenny Rachitsky: And I think it's because a lot of companies hire generalists and they're just like, we'll hire someone smart, ambitious, and with experience and general experience and then we'll put them on different things.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这是因为很多公司都聘用通才，他们就像是，我们会聘用一个聪明、雄心勃勃、具有经验和一般经验的人，然后我们会让他们从事不同的工作。

So I think these are two different philosophies and it probably makes a lot of sense for an Opendoor with very unique type of business, with very specific skills that are necessary to be really good there.

所以我认为这是两种不同的理念，对于一家拥有非常独特的业务类型、拥有非常具体的技能的 Opendoor 来说，这可能很有意义，而这些技能是在该领域真正出色所必需的。

Okay, amazing.

好吧，太棒了。

Brian, with this, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

布莱恩，至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's do it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：让我们开始吧。

First question, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

第一个问题，您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Brian Tolkin: Shoe dog, Black Swan, Design of Everyday Things, and for a fun one, Shawn Theron.

布莱恩·托尔金：《鞋狗》、《黑天鹅》、《日常用品设计》，还有一个有趣的作品，肖恩·塞隆。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Four books for the price of two to three.

四本书的价格是两到三本书的价格。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

Brian Tolkin: Apologies.

布莱恩·托尔金：抱歉。

I'll stick to the rules.

我会遵守规则。

Lenny Rachitsky: No, no, there's no rules.

Lenny Rachitsky：不，不，没有规则。

There are no rules.

没有规则。

Lenny Rachitsky: Next question, do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed?

Lenny Rachitsky：下一个问题，你最近有没有最喜欢的电影或电视节目？

Brian Tolkin: I like the sports docu ones on Netflix, so Full Swing, Drive to Survive, Break Points, tennis, golf, F1, all of them.

布莱恩·托尔金：我喜欢 Netflix 上的体育纪录片，例如《全力以赴》、《极速求生》、《破发点》、网球、高尔夫、F1，所有这些。

Lenny Rachitsky: And wasn't there that Nike documentary recently with Ben Affleck?

Lenny Rachitsky：最近不是有本·阿弗莱克 (Ben Affleck) 拍摄的耐克纪录片吗？

Brian Tolkin: There is, which I have not seen.

Brian Tolkin：有，但我没见过。

So if it's good, I don't know if that's a recommendation or just an acknowledgement.

所以如果它很好，我不知道这是一个推荐还是只是一个认可。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's worth watching.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：值得一看。

If you like Shoe Dog, I feel like you'd enjoy it.

如果你喜欢《Shoe Dog》，我觉得你会喜欢它。

It was entertaining Michael Jordan, things like that.

迈克尔·乔丹（Michael Jordan）这样的事情很有趣。

Next question, do you have a favorite product that you have recently discovered that you really love?

下一个问题，您是否有最近发现并且真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品？

Brian Tolkin: So we just got a puppy and we are about to have our first child.

布莱恩·托尔金：所以我们刚刚有了一只小狗，我们即将生下我们的第一个孩子。

And so all of my purchases recently are puppies and children focused.

因此，我最近购买的所有商品都以小狗和儿童为主。

My buddy gifted us the Phi collar for our dog, and so we've been really enjoying that.

我的朋友送给我们的狗一个 Phi 项圈，所以我们真的很享受。

Another one as I'm getting busier for news and stuff is Particle, which is a great news aggravation tool, AI news tool.

当我越来越忙于新闻和其他东西时，另一个是 Particle，这是一个很棒的新闻恶化工具，AI 新闻工具。

Lenny Rachitsky: Cavan's wife's business.

莱尼·拉奇茨基（Lenny Rachitsky）：卡万妻子的生意。

I am a huge fan, actually I think it just came out of beta and now it's like a full app that anyone can download.

我是一个超级粉丝，实际上我认为它刚刚结束测试版，现在它就像一个任何人都可以下载的完整应用程序。

I just actually installed it yesterday again and I love it.

我昨天才再次安装它，我很喜欢它。

I get these pushes every few...

我每隔几次就会收到这些推送......

I don't know, it's like a couple of times a day of just like, here's what's happening.

我不知道，就像每天有几次这样，这就是发生的事情。

Also, congratulations I should have said on your pending child.

另外，我应该对你即将出生的孩子表示祝贺。

Lenny Rachitsky: Lucky for you.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：你很幸运。

I have a newsletter post with all the products you should buy, it's called New Parent Gift Guide for Product Managers.

我有一篇时事通讯，其中包含您应该购买的所有产品，它的名称为产品经理的新父母礼物指南。

Brian Tolkin: Love it.

布莱恩·托尔金：喜欢。

I will definitely probably buy all of them.

我肯定会全部购买。

Lenny Rachitsky: If you don't already have them all.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果你还没有全部拥有的话。

And now everyone's probably sending you their spreadsheets of all their favorite stuff there.

现在每个人可能都会向您发送他们最喜欢的所有内容的电子表格。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, next question.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，下一个问题。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to share with people either in work or life?

您是否有最喜欢的人生格言，并且经常回来与工作或生活中的人们分享？

Brian Tolkin: Well, mostly just stay curious.

布莱恩·托尔金：嗯，主要是保持好奇心。

Lenny Rachitsky: Stay curious.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：保持好奇心。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

Two more questions.

还有两个问题。

Who has most influenced you in the course of your career?

在您的职业生涯中，谁对您影响最大？

Brian Tolkin: One of the people who inspired me very early on in my product journey.

Brian Tolkin：在我的产品之旅中，他是我的早期启发者之一。

I've been fortunate to have a number of very good mentors and obviously we talked about earlier while I was founders of books or me a lot from other people's journey.

我很幸运有很多非常好的导师，显然我们之前谈到过，当我还是书籍的创始人时，或者我从其他人的旅程中学到了很多东西。

But one person who was personally important to me early in my product journey and very supportive of this guy named Jeff Holden, who was the chief product officer at Uber back in the day, and is like a young PM transferring into product really took me under his wing.

但在我的产品之旅的早期，有一个人对我个人很重要，并且非常支持这个名叫 Jeff Holden 的人，他当时是 Uber 的首席产品官，就像一位年轻的 PM 转入产品领域一样，他真的把我置于他的羽翼之下。

And I think I'm forever grateful for that, for Jeff, for helping grow my career, but also try to pay it forward a little bit in terms of people who are going in the career.

我想我永远感激杰夫，感谢他帮助我发展职业生涯，同时也努力为那些正在从事职业生涯的人做出一点贡献。

That was really meaningful for me.

这对我来说真的很有意义。

Lenny Rachitsky: Last question.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：最后一个问题。

I hear that your interview at Uber was pretty wild.

我听说你在 Uber 的面试非常疯狂。

Can you tell that story?

你能讲一下那个故事吗？

Brian Tolkin: Yeah, I can.

布莱恩·托尔金：是的，我可以。

So, long story short, I was starting a company my senior spring before graduation and we had to go our separate ways.

所以，长话短说，我在毕业前的大四春天创办了一家公司，我们不得不分道扬镳。

So I hadn't done traditional recruiting ever.

所以我从来没有做过传统的招聘。

And my buddy called me up and was like, "Hey, we're looking for smart, hardworking people at this Uber thing.

我的朋友打电话给我说：“嘿，我们正在寻找聪明、勤奋的 Uber 人才。

Are you interested?" And quick side note, I had actually done some very early diligence work on these taxi apps back in 2011, looking at the time was Uber Cab and Cabilis and Taxi Manage can probably names nothing these days.

你有兴趣吗？”顺便说一句，我实际上早在 2011 年就对这些出租车应用程序进行了一些非常早期的调查工作，看看当时的 Uber Cab 和 Cabilis 以及 Taxi Manage 如今可能什么也说不出来。

And so I knew what Uber was and so I said, "Yeah, sure, I would love to." And so I had the first round of interview went well, and they said, great.

所以我知道 Uber 是什么，所以我说：“是的，当然，我很乐意。”所以我的第一轮面试很顺利，他们说，太棒了。

And at that stage is come on onsite, the full enchilada one works, and this was post-graduation and was helping out some companies but didn't have a full-time job.

在那个阶段，在现场，完整的玉米卷饼工作，这是毕业后，正在帮助一些公司，但没有一份全职工作。

Brian Tolkin: So I said, hey, I'm pretty flexible.

布莱恩·托尔金：所以我说，嘿，我很灵活。

How about next Tuesday?

下周二怎么样？

I said, great.

我说，太好了。

So we scheduled it and then on Friday or Saturday or over the weekend I looked, I'm like, oh, Tuesday's, July 4th.

所以我们安排好了，然后在周五、周六或周末，我想，哦，周二，7 月 4 日。

I scheduled my interview for July 4th.

我安排了7月4日的面试。

And so I called my buddy and I'm like, hey, I am so sorry.

所以我打电话给我的朋友，我说，嘿，我很抱歉。

I don't want to make people in on July 4th.

我不想让人们在 7 月 4 日到来。

Should I cancel?

我应该取消吗？

Should I reach out?

我应该伸出援手吗？

Everyone's accepted.

大家都接受了。

Whatever you do, do not cancel your interview.

无论您做什么，都不要取消面试。

Like, okay, I'll be there on July 4th.

好吧，我将于 7 月 4 日到那里。

And so I went in to the office on July 4th and there was a very small handful of people there.

7 月 4 日，我走进办公室，那里只有极少数人。

It was actually launching that day, was launching Uber's second ever product type, which was Uber SUV.

那天实际上是在推出 Uber 的第二种产品类型，即 Uber SUV。

And I had this, I think it was probably five hour gauntlet interview on July 4th from noon to five and missed my July 4th barbecue.

我有这个，我想这可能是 7 月 4 日中午到下午 5 点的五个小时的面试，错过了我的 7 月 4 日烧烤。

And it was quite the experience, but I think maybe set the stage for some of the early days chaos.

这是一次相当不错的经历，但我认为这可能为早期的一些混乱奠定了基础。

I'm very glad I didn't cancel the interview.

我很高兴我没有取消采访。

Lenny Rachitsky: And was Travis involved in that interview or is it just-

Lenny Rachitsky：特拉维斯是否参与了那次采访，或者只是-

Brian Tolkin: Travis was involved in the interview.

布莱恩·托尔金：特拉维斯参与了采访。

She was one of the...

她是其中之一...

I think there were four or five people, and the two who were generally guiding my interview process and Travis and one other person starting that day.

我想有四五个人，其中两个人负责指导我的面试过程，特拉维斯和另外一个人从那天开始。

And part of the gauntlet interview was a simulation of the job, if you will.

如果你愿意的话，挑战面试的一部分是对工作的模拟。

And so some of that was building some novels on the computers and some of it was writing potential emails to drivers and if she had the driver come in and you did chat, so I was in this room by myself typing away on the first part, which was building the model.

所以其中一些是在计算机上构建一些小说，一些是给司机写潜在的电子邮件，如果她让司机进来并且你们聊天，所以我自己在这个房间里打字第一部分，这是构建模型。

And I hear him knock on the door and Travis comes in and he just sits down and says, "Hi, I'm Travis." I don't know who you are, but I'm Brian, and we have a 45-minute chat, or maybe it's been about half hour, 45 minutes.

我听到他敲门，特拉维斯进来了，他坐下来说：“嗨，我是特拉维斯。”我不知道你是谁，但我是布莱恩，我们聊了 45 分钟，或者可能已经聊了大约半小时、45 分钟。

And clearly I'm not producing the work that I'm supposed to of the interview.

显然我没有做出我应该做的采访工作。

Brian Tolkin: I'm supposed to be building this model.

Brian Tolkin：我应该构建这个模型。

I'm supposed to email it back to the person who sent it to me.

我应该将其通过电子邮件发回给发给我的人。

Clearly I've done nothing chatting with the CEO.

显然我没有与首席执行官交谈任何事情。

And I hear a knock on the door and the door opens and the person sees that I'm talking to Travis, "Oh, continue, continue" and it was very good.

我听到敲门声，门打开了，那个人看到我正在和特拉维斯说话，“哦，继续，继续”，这非常好。

Also, pretty intense conversation with Travis that definitely set the expectations working there.

此外，与特拉维斯的非常激烈的谈话肯定设定了在那里工作的期望。

Lenny Rachitsky: And clearly worked out.

Lenny Rachitsky：显然已经成功了。

And Travis was happy.

特拉维斯很高兴。

Is what-

是什么——

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Brian, thank you so much for being here.

布莱恩，非常感谢你来到这里。

We went through everything that I was hoping to get through.

我们经历了我希望经历的一切。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online, and is there anything you want them to check out that you might be up to?

人们可以在网上哪里找到您？您希望他们查看您可能在做什么吗？

And how can listeners be useful to you?

听众如何对你有用？

Brian Tolkin: Super kind.

布莱恩·托尔金：超级友善。

They can find me online on Twitter, LinkedIn, both just Brian Tolkin, my name.

他们可以在 Twitter、LinkedIn 上在线找到我，两者都只是布莱恩·托尔金（Brian Tolkin），我的名字。

In terms of being useful, if you have a home to sell, feel free to go on to Opendoor.

就有用性而言，如果您有房子要出售，请随时继续 Opendoor。

More importantly, if you have feedback on the product, but would love to hear it.

更重要的是，如果您对产品有反馈，但很想听听。

Otherwise, any feedback on what people liked or would love to learn more about from what we chatted about would be super great.

否则，任何关于人们喜欢什么或想从我们聊天中了解更多信息的反馈都会非常好。

So I'd love to hear from you.

所以我很想听听你的消息。

Lenny Rachitsky: Brian, thank you so much for being here.

Lenny Rachitsky：布莱恩，非常感谢你来到这里。

Brian Tolkin: Lenny, I really appreciate it.

布莱恩·托尔金：莱尼，我真的很感激。

This was great.

这太棒了。

Bye everyone.

再见大家。

Lenny Rachitsky: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：非常感谢您的聆听。

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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。