Brian Chesky’s new playbook

Brian Chesky: Way too many founders apologize for how they want to run the company.

布莱恩·切斯基（Brian Chesky）：太多创始人为他们想要如何经营公司而道歉。

They find some midpoint between how they want to run a company and how the people they lead want to run the company.

他们在自己想要如何经营公司和他们领导的人想要如何经营公司之间找到了一些中间点。

That's a good way to make everyone miserable.

这是一个让每个人都痛苦的好方法。

Because what everyone really wants is clarity.

因为每个人真正想要的是清晰。

And what everyone really wants is to be able to row in the same direction really quickly.

每个人真正想要的是能够非常快地向同一个方向划船。

And so I basically got involved in every single detail and I basically told leaders that leaders are in the details.

所以我基本上参与了每一个细节，我基本上告诉领导者，领导者就在细节中。

And there's this negative term called micromanagement.

还有一个消极的术语叫做微观管理。

I think there's a difference between micromanagement, which is like telling people exactly what to do, and being in the details.

我认为微观管理和关注细节之间是有区别的，微观管理就像告诉人们到底要做什么。

Being in the details is what every responsible company's board does to the CEO.

关注细节是每个负责任的公司董事会对首席执行官所做的事情。

That doesn't mean the board is telling them what to do.

这并不意味着董事会告诉他们该做什么。

But if you don't know the details, how do you know people are doing a good job?

但如果你不了解细节，你怎么知道人们做得很好呢？

People think that great leader's job is to hire people and just empower them to do a good job.

人们认为伟大领导者的工作就是雇用员工并授权他们做好工作。

Well, how do you know they're doing a good job if you're not in the details?

那么，如果你不了解细节，你怎么知道他们做得很好呢？

And so I made sure I was in the details and we really drove the product.

所以我确保我关注细节，我们真正推动了产品的发展。

Lenny: Today my guest is Brian Chesky.

莱尼：今天我的客人是布莱恩·切斯基。

Brian is the CEO and co-founder of Airbnb, which he started in his apartment with his co-founders, Joe and Nate, and has turned into an $80 billion global business with travelers and homes in 220 countries.

Brian 是 Airbnb 的首席执行官兼联合创始人，他与联合创始人 Joe 和 Nate 在自己的公寓中创办了 Airbnb，现已发展成为价值 800 亿美元的全球企业，在 220 个国家/地区拥有旅行者和房屋。

I was very lucky to get to work with Brian for many years, and my sense is if you ask people who they consider the most inspiring tech or business leaders today, Brian would be right near the top of that list.

我很幸运能够与布莱恩共事多年，我的感觉是，如果你问人们他们认为当今最鼓舞人心的技术或商业领袖是谁，布莱恩会名列前茅。

Lenny: In our conversation, Brian shares an in-depth explanation of what's happening with product management at Airbnb, which caused quite a stir in the product world when he talked about this previously.

Lenny：在我们的谈话中，Brian 深入地解释了 Airbnb 产品管理的现状，他之前谈到这一点时在产品界引起了不小的轰动。

We also get deep into Brian's new approach of how he runs Airbnb, including shifting away from traditional growth channels like paid growth, and instead betting that if they just build the best possible product and tell people about it, growth will happen.

我们还深入探讨了 Brian 运营 Airbnb 的新方法，包括摆脱付费增长等传统增长渠道，转而押注，如果他们只是打造出最好的产品并告诉人们，增长就会发生。

Also, how the product team now operates including having just one single roadmap across the entire company and Brian staying very close to every design and every feature.

此外，产品团队现在的运作方式包括整个公司只有一个路线图，并且布莱恩密切关注每一个设计和每一个功能。

We also get a bit into his personal life, including how he finds balance and avoids burnout, how he continues to learn himself so that he can stay ahead of the business and its growth.

我们还深入了解了他的个人生活，包括他如何找到平衡并避免倦怠，他如何继续自我学习，以便在企业及其发展中保持领先地位。

This is a very special episode for me and I'm thrilled to bring you Brian Chesky after a short word from our sponsors.

这对我来说是非常特别的一集，在我们的赞助商简短致辞后，我很高兴为您带来布莱恩·切斯基(Brian Chesky)。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Sidebar.

莱尼：这一集是由 Sidebar 为您带来的。

Are you looking to land your next big career move or start your own thing?

您是否正在寻找下一个重大职业变动或开始自己的事业？

One of the most effective ways to create a big leap in your career and something that worked really well for me a few years ago is to create a personal board of directors.

实现职业生涯重大飞跃的最有效方法之一就是创建个人董事会，这在几年前对我来说非常有效。

A trusted peer group where you can discuss challenges you're having, get career advice, and just gut check how you're thinking about your work, your career, and your life.

一个值得信赖的同侪小组，您可以在这里讨论您遇到的挑战，获得职业建议，并直观地检查您对工作、职业和生活的看法。

This has been a big trajectory changer for me, but it's hard to build this trusted group.

这对我来说是一个巨大的轨迹改变，但建立这个值得信赖的团队很困难。

With Sidebar, senior leaders are matched with highly vetted, private, supportive peer groups to lean on for unbiased opinions, diverse perspectives, and raw feedback.

通过 Sidebar，高级领导者可以与经过严格审查的、私密的、支持性的同行群体相匹配，以获取公正的意见、不同的观点和原始反馈。

Everyone has their own zone of genius, so together we're better prepared to navigate professional pitfalls leading to more responsibility, faster promotions, and bigger impact.

每个人都有自己的天才区，因此我们可以齐心协力，更好地应对职业陷阱，从而承担更多的责任、更快的晋升和更大的影响力。

Lenny: Guided by world-class programming and facilitation, Sidebar enables you to get focused, tactical feedback at every step of your journey.

Lenny：在世界一流的编程和便利的指导下，Sidebar 使您能够在旅程的每一步获得集中的战术反馈。

If you're a listener of this podcast, you're likely already driven and committed to growth.

如果您是此播客的听众，您可能已经有动力并致力于成长。

A Sidebar personal board of directors is the missing piece to catalyze that journey.

侧栏个人董事会是催化这一旅程所缺失的部分。

Why spend a decade finding your people when you can meet them at Sidebar today.

今天您就可以在侧边栏与您的人见面，为什么要花十年的时间来寻找他们呢？

Jump the growing wait list of thousands of leaders from top tech companies by visiting sidebar.com/lenny to learn more.

请访问 sidebar.com/lenny 以了解更多信息，从而跳过由顶级科技公司的数千名领导者组成的不断增长的候补名单。

That's sidebar.com/lenny.

这是 sidebar.com/lenny。

Lenny: You fell in love with building products for a reason, but sometimes the day-to-day reality is a little different than you imagined.

Lenny：你爱上构建产品是有原因的，但有时日常现实与你想象的有点不同。

Instead of dreaming up big ideas, talking to customers and crafting a strategy, you're drowning in spreadsheets and roadmap updates and you're spending your days basically putting out fires.

您没有梦想出伟大的想法，与客户交谈并制定策略，而是淹没在电子表格和路线图更新中，并且您的时间基本上都花在救火上。

A better way is possible.

更好的方法是可能的。

Introducing Jira Product Discovery, the new prioritization and roadmapping tool built for product teams by Atlassian.

隆重推出 Jira Product Discovery，这是 Atlassian 为产品团队构建的新优先级划分和路线图工具。

Lenny: With Jira Product Discovery, you can gather all your product ideas and insights in one place and prioritize confidently finally, replacing those endless spreadsheets.

Lenny：借助 Jira Product Discovery，您可以将所有产品创意和见解收集到一个地方，并最终自信地确定优先顺序，从而取代那些无休无止的电子表格。

Create and share custom product roadmaps with any stakeholder in seconds and it's all built on Jira where your engineering team's already working so true collaboration is finally possible.

在几秒钟内创建并与任何利益相关者共享自定义产品路线图，这一切都建立在 Jira 上，您的工程团队已经在 J​​ira 上工作，因此真正的协作终于成为可能。

Great products are built by great teams, not just engineers.

伟大的产品是由伟大的团队打造的，而不仅仅是工程师。

Sales, support, leadership, even Greg from finance.

销售、支持、领导，甚至财务部门的格雷格。

Anyone that you want can contribute ideas, feedback, and insights in Jira Product Discovery for free.

您想要的任何人都可以在 Jira Product Discovery 中免费贡献想法、反馈和见解。

No catch.

没有捕获。

And it's only $10 a month for you.

而且每月只需 10 美元。

Say goodbye to your spreadsheets and the never ending alignment efforts.

告别电子表格和无休止的对齐工作。

The old way of doing product management is over.

旧的产品管理方式已经结束。

Rediscover what's possible with Jira Product Discovery.

重新发现 Jira Product Discovery 的可能性。

Try for free at atlassian.com/lenny.

请访问 atlassian.com/lenny 免费试用。

That's atlassian.com/lenny.

这是 atlassian.com/lenny。

Lenny: Brian, thank you so much for being here.

莱尼：布莱恩，非常感谢你来到这里。

Welcome to the podcast.

欢迎来到播客。

Brian Chesky: Well, thank you for having me.

布莱恩·切斯基：嗯，谢谢你邀请我。

Lenny: Did you ever think when I left Airbnb, one, that I would have a podcast and two, that you would be on my podcast?

莱尼：当我离开 Airbnb 时，你有没有想过，一是我会有一个播客，二是你会出现在我的播客上？

Brian Chesky: I had no idea you would become a podcast host and that you would have such a successful podcast.

布莱恩·切斯基：我不知道你会成为一名播客主持人，并且你会拥有如此成功的播客。

But yeah, congrats on everything.

但是，是的，恭喜一切。

This is awesome.

这太棒了。

Lenny: I appreciate it.

莱尼：我很感激。

Congrats to you too, Brian.

也祝贺你，布莱恩。

Things seem to be going great.

事情似乎进展顺利。

I'm excited that you're here.

我很高兴你在这里。

I want to start with the elephant in the room for a lot of listeners of this podcast.

对于这个播客的很多听众来说，我想从房间里的大象开始。

What is going on with product management at Airbnb?

Airbnb 的产品管理进展如何？

You made some comments at Figma Config and a lot of people got this impression that you eliminated product management at Airbnb, and I've heard from a lot of product execs having boardroom conversations as a result of that.

您在 Figma Config 上发表了一些评论，很多人都觉得您取消了 Airbnb 的产品管理，我听说很多产品高管因此进行了董事会对话。

And they were trying to decide should we remove product management from the company?

他们试图决定我们是否应该从公司中取消产品管理？

Should we significantly cut product management?

我们是否应该大幅削减产品管理？

So I'm just curious to hear from you, what is the latest on your thinking on product management and what's happening with product management at Airbnb?

所以我很想听听您的来信，您对产品管理的最新想法是什么，以及 Airbnb 的产品管理发生了什么？

Brian Chesky: I spoke at Figma four or five months ago.

Brian Chesky：四五个月前我在 Figma 上发表过演讲。

I spoke to a room of designers.

我和一屋子的设计师交谈过。

I then got off-stage.

然后我就下了舞台。

I saw somebody tweet that said something to the nature of that I said I got rid of the product management function and all the designers in the room started cheering.

我看到有人在推特上说了一些与我说我取消了产品管理功能的本质有关的内容，房间里的所有设计师都开始欢呼。

So I want to talk about two things.

所以我想谈两件事。

What I actually meant, because I didn't actually get rid of the people.

我实际上的意思是，因为我实际上并没有摆脱这些人。

And also why did the people in the room cheer?

还有为什么房间里的人欢呼雀跃？

Because that's also a thing we should ask ourselves.

因为这也是我们应该问自己的事情。

And I hope everyone listening to this podcast should understand where did that place come from, that 5,000 designers in a room cheered because they thought I eliminated the existence of a function?

我希望每个听这个播客的人都应该明白那个地方是从哪里来的，一个房间里的 5,000 名设计师欢呼雀跃，因为他们认为我消除了一个功能的存在？

Because if I said I eliminated the engineering function, no one would've cheered.

因为如果我说我取消了工程功能，没有人会欢呼。

It was specifically that function.

正是这个功能。

So I want to talk about what that might mean.

所以我想谈谈这可能意味着什么。

It wasn't the people, it's the way they're working together.

问题不在于人，而在于他们一起工作的方式。

Brian Chesky: So we don't have any longer the traditional product management function as it existed when you was here.

Brian Chesky：所以我们不再拥有您在职时那样的传统产品管理功能。

But we didn't get rid of people helping drive the product.

但我们并没有解雇帮助推动产品的人员。

What we did is we combined what one might call the inbound product development responsibilities of product manager with the outbound or marketing responsibilities of product marketing.

我们所做的是将产品经理的入站产品开发职责与产品营销的出站或营销职责结合起来。

That's the first thing we did.

这是我们做的第一件事。

The second thing we did is we off boarded much of the program management functions that product managers may do to actual program managers.

我们做的第二件事是，我们取消了产品经理可能对实际项目经理执行的大部分项目管理职能。

A lot of people with the product management title are actually program managers.

许多拥有产品管理头衔的人实际上是项目经理。

So we actually started off boarding some responsibilities to program management.

因此，我们实际上开始将一些责任交给项目管理。

The last thing we did is we made the group smaller and more senior.

我们做的最后一件事是让团队规模更小、级别更高。

So we don't really have a lot of junior product marketers.

所以我们并没有很多初级产品营销人员。

So the most senior people are called product marketers, but everyone has to understand how to talk about the product.

所以最资深的人被称为产品营销人员，但每个人都必须懂得如何谈论产品。

Brian Chesky: So the basic idea is this.

Brian Chesky：基本的想法是这样的。

You can't build a product unless you know how to talk about the product.

除非您知道如何谈论产品，否则您无法构建产品。

You can't be an expert in making the product unless you're also an expert in the market of it.

除非您也是产品市场的专家，否则您不可能成为产品制造方面的专家。

And a lot of companies, what they do is they ship a product, it doesn't work, and they say, "We tried that.

很多公司，他们所做的就是发布产品，但产品不起作用，他们说：“我们尝试过。

It didn't work." And if you say you tried and it didn't work, my question is, was it a bad product, a bad strategy or bad execution?

没用。”如果你说你尝试过但没有成功，我的问题是，这是一个糟糕的产品、糟糕的策略还是糟糕的执行？

Maybe it was a really well-made product, but you had no distribution plan.

也许这是一个制作精良的产品，但你没有分销计划。

You had no way to talk about the product.

你没有办法谈论产品。

If you build a great product and no one knows about it, did you even build a product?

如果你开发了一款出色的产品，但没有人知道它，那么你还开发过一款产品吗？

So that is essentially what we do.

这基本上就是我们所做的。

We have a much smaller function.

我们有一个小得多的函数。

The people are much more senior.

人民的地位要高得多。

They have much more responsibility.

他们有更多的责任。

The other thing though is that they do not control or drive designing or engineering.

但另一件事是他们不控制或驱动设计或工程。

We are a fairly purely functional model.

我们是一个相当纯粹的功能模型。

They manage by influence.

他们靠影响力来管理。

They do not have control.

他们没有控制权。

Brian Chesky: Now you might ask, how does that work in a company where people can only manage by influence?

布莱恩·切斯基：现在你可能会问，在一个人们只能通过影响力进行管理的公司里，这如何运作？

Here's the amazing thing.

这就是令人惊奇的事情。

We built and designed a company where you can manage by influence and no one has to like you.

我们建立并设计了一家公司，在这里你可以通过影响力进行管理，而没有人必须喜欢你。

You don't actually have to win people over.

你实际上不必赢得人们的支持。

Oh, and the last thing I want to say is, why did 5,000 designers cheer when the people thought I removed the product management function?

哦，最后我想说的是，当人们认为我删除了产品管理功能时，为什么 5000 名设计师欢呼呢？

Because I want to say ...

因为我想说...

I don't know if I can speak on behalf of all the designers, but having talked to a lot of designers, I think designers in the valley are very, very frustrated with the product development process.

我不知道我是否可以代表所有设计师发言，但在与很多设计师交谈后，我认为硅谷的设计师对产品开发过程非常非常沮丧。

Not to say the product managers, but they're extremely frustrated.

更不用说产品经理了，但他们非常沮丧。

Brian Chesky: I think a lot of designers feel like they're compromising.

Brian Chesky：我认为很多设计师都觉得他们在妥协。

Many designers I know ...

我认识的很多设计师...

Heads of design.

设计负责人。

Well-known heads of design.

知名设计负责人。

I told them they're not designers, they're design administrators.

我告诉他们他们不是设计师，他们是设计管理员。

They're running a design service organization.

他们正在经营一个设计服务组织。

Because Silicon Valley often treats design as a service organization.

因为硅谷常常把设计当作一个服务组织。

Like design is catching things before it goes out the door.

就像设计就是在事物走出大门之前抓住事物一样。

It's not actually typically part of the development process.

它实际上通常不是开发过程的一部分。

And I think this is not just bad for design, it's bad for product managers and engineers because we all want to build the best products.

我认为这不仅对设计不利，对产品经理和工程师也不利，因为我们都想打造最好的产品。

And one day you wake up and a variety of phenomenon might have happened.

有一天你醒来，可能会发生各种各样的现象。

And if people are watching this from a large company, here might be some of the characteristics.

如果人们从一家大公司观察这一点，可能会发现以下一些特征。

Brian Chesky: The first thing you notice is that these different groups might be running on slightly different technical stacks.

Brian Chesky：您注意到的第一件事是，这些不同的组可能运行在略有不同的技术堆栈上。

That's the first problem.

这是第一个问题。

And they may actually be accumulating technical debt.

他们实际上可能正在积累技术债务。

The next problem you'll see is that there's a lot of dependencies.

您将看到的下一个问题是存在大量依赖性。

So five teams are going different directions, but they all need a payment platform.

所以五个团队正在走不同的方向，但他们都需要一个支付平台。

And so what happens is that the teams that everyone's dependent on get this backup like a deli and people are going around the block.

因此，每个人都依赖的团队会像熟食店一样获得这种备份，而人们会在街区周围走动。

And then at some point they just give up.

然后在某个时候他们就会放弃。

So then the teams that are dependent on other people say, "Give me the resources and I'll build this group myself." So instead of five teams going to marketing to get a campaign or to leverage some service, they start building their own marketing departments, their own groups.

因此，依赖其他人的团队会说：“给我资源，我自己建立这个团队。”因此，他们不再是五个团队去营销来开展活动或利用某些服务，而是开始建立自己的营销部门、自己的团队。

So now they're really becoming separate divisions.

所以现在他们真的变成了独立的部门。

And this is where a division comes from.

这就是分裂的由来。

Brian Chesky: Now, once you have a division, your division is as successful as you are a priority.

Brian Chesky：现在，一旦你有了一个部门，你的部门就会成功，就像你一样优先。

So now you have to advocate for your division.

所以现在你必须为你的部门辩护。

So there's a lot of advocacy.

所以有很多倡导。

If you have dependencies, you've got to persuade people by building relationships.

如果你有依赖性，你就必须通过建立关系来说服人们。

And so the people that are liked that build the best relationships are the ones that get the most resources and that creates what we call politics.

因此，那些能建立最好关系、受到人们喜爱的人就是那些获得最多资源并创造我们所谓的政治的人。

And so now politics that brood in the company.

所以现在政治在公司中蔓延。

And suddenly people gets more subdivided, more subdivided, subdivided.

突然之间，人们变得更加细分、更加细分、细分。

And that creates another problem, which we call bureaucracy.

这就产生了另一个问题，我们称之为官僚主义。

And that bureaucracy means it's hard to know who's doing what.

这种官僚主义意味着很难知道谁在做什么。

People are going in different directions and that creates a lack of accountability.

人们走向不同的方向，这就造成了责任感的缺失。

When there's lack of accountability, then there's a sense that what I do doesn't matter and that creates complacency.

当缺乏责任感时，就会有一种感觉，认为我所做的事情并不重要，从而产生自满情绪。

And then suddenly a fast-growing company becomes a big slow moving bureaucracy.

然后，一家快速发展的公司突然变成了一个行动缓慢的大型官僚机构。

This is a general arc that winds up happening.

这是最终发生的一般弧线。

Brian Chesky: And then you end up having this situation where a company's done 10 marketing efforts, but no customer's heard anything.

Brian Chesky：然后你就会遇到这样的情况：一家公司做了 10 次营销工作，但没有客户听到任何消息。

They have thousands of engineers, they shipped all these products, but a customer can't tell you a single thing you did.

他们有数千名工程师，他们运送了所有这些产品，但客户无法告诉你你做了什么。

Marketing and engineering don't talk to each other.

营销和工程不互相交谈。

It's not even they hate each other, they're in different universes.

他们并不是互相讨厌，而是身处不同的宇宙。

I've always said that the health of an organization, one simple heuristic is how close is engineering and marketing?

我总是说，一个组织的健康状况，一个简单的启发就是工程和营销的紧密程度如何？

And marketing is at lot of companies are like the waiters, engineers are like the chefs and the chefs yell at the waiters and they go in the kitchen.

在很多公司，营销就像服务员，工程师就像厨师，厨师对服务员大喊大叫，然后他们就走进厨房。

In fact, the waiters are the ones talking to the customers all day and they also know how to sell things so you really want them being enjoined at the hip and you want engineers to be thinking about maybe how to talk about the products that they're building.

事实上，服务员是整天与顾客交谈的人，他们也知道如何推销东西，所以你真的希望他们受到吩咐，你希望工程师考虑如何谈论他们正在制造的产品。

Brian Chesky: So this is the problem that we had.

Brian Chesky：这就是我们遇到的问题。

And also the other thing we were doing is, as you know Lenny, we were spending a lot of money in performance marketing.

我们正在做的另一件事是，正如你知道的莱尼，我们在效果营销上花了很多钱。

I don't think performance marketing is a bad thing.

我不认为效果营销是一件坏事。

I think of performance marketing as a laser.

我认为效果营销就像激光。

Actually my co-founder who obviously you know well, Joe, used to have this metaphor of lasers, flash bulbs and chandeliers.

事实上，我的联合创始人，显然你很熟悉，乔，曾经有过激光、闪光灯和枝形吊灯的比喻。

If you want to light up a room, performance marking is a laser.

如果你想照亮一个房间，高性能打标就是激光。

It can light up a corner of a room.

它可以照亮房间的一个角落。

You don't want to use a bunch of lasers to light up an entire room.

您不想使用一束激光来照亮整个房间。

You should use a chandelier and that's what brand marketing is.

你应该使用枝形吊灯，这就是品牌营销。

But if you do need to laser in and balance supply and demand, then performance marketing is really good.

但如果你确实需要激光并平衡供需，那么效果营销确实很好。

It literally lasers in.

它确实是激光射入的。

Performance marketing though doesn't create very good accumulating advantages because it's not an investment.

然而，效果营销并不能创造很好的积累优势，因为它不是一项投资。

Now if you want to build it permanently, like booking.com, if you have a really high ROI, now you can have a performance marketing arbitrage business.

现在，如果你想永久建立它，比如 booking.com，如果你有非常高的投资回报率，现在你可以拥有绩效营销套利业务。

But assuming you don't want an arbitrage business, you actually need to be investing.

但假设你不想要套利业务，你实际上需要进行投资。

And so we think of marketing as education.

因此，我们将营销视为教育。

That we're educating people on the unique benefits.

我们正在教育人们了解其独特的好处。

Brian Chesky: So a lot of companies don't do product marketing.

Brian Chesky：所以很多公司不做产品营销。

They do brand marketing, which are ads about the app or they do performance marketing, but they're never really educating people about new things they're making and shipping.

他们进行品牌营销，即有关应用程序的广告，或者进行绩效营销，但他们从来没有真正向人们介绍他们正在制造和运输的新产品。

And because no one's marketing new things they're shipping, there's no purpose to ship new things.

而且因为没有人营销他们正在运送的新东西，所以没有目的运送新东西。

Because you ship new things and people don't know about them or use them or they're not educated.

因为你发布了新东西，但人们不了解它们或使用它们，或者他们没有受过教育。

And so you try these big new things, people don't adopt them immediately, so then you get more and more incremental.

所以你尝试这些重大的新事物，人们不会立即采用它们，所以你会得到越来越多的增量。

Now what we do is we have a rolling two year roadmap.

现在我们要做的是制定一个滚动的两年路线图。

We don't even really do an annual plan.

我们甚至没有真正制定年度计划。

As you remember, Lenny, when you were at Airbnb, we would have three month planning cycles.

Lenny，您还记得，当您在 Airbnb 工作时，我们有三个月的计划周期。

Now planning cycle is just a budgeting cycle and most people only spend a week or two on it.

现在计划周期只是一个预算周期，大多数人只花一两周的时间。

Some don't spend any time on it.

有些人不会花任何时间在这上面。

And we have a rolling two year product plan.

我们有一个滚动的两年产品计划。

Strategy.

战略。

Product strategy roadmap that gets updated every six months with releases.

产品战略路线图每六个月更新一次并发布。

We release products every May and every November or October.

我们每年五月、十一月或十月都会发布产品。

Obviously we did one today we can talk about.

显然我们今天做了一个可以讨论的事情。

Brian Chesky: The entire company works together.

Brian Chesky：整个公司一起工作。

They row in the same direction.

他们朝同一个方向划船。

And the product management also does the product marketing.

产品管理还负责产品营销。

So they're figuring out how people are going to learn about it, they're doing the demos, they're understanding the story, the videos, they're figuring out all the customer touchpoints, making sure everyone understands it.

因此，他们正在弄清楚人们将如何了解它，他们正在做演示，他们正在理解故事、视频，他们正在找出所有客户接触点，确保每个人都理解它。

Our product marketing works with communications.

我们的产品营销与传播相结合。

We work months ahead of time on all the different assets.

我们提前几个月处理所有不同的资产。

And when we're working on a launch, one of the first things we'll do is start figuring out what the story is.

当我们准备发布时，我们要做的第一件事就是开始弄清楚故事是什么。

And the story will often dictate the product.

故事往往会决定产品。

Because ultimately you have to tell the story to people.

因为最终你必须向人们讲述这个故事。

But a story also is a really helpful way to develop a cohesive product.

但故事也是开发有凝聚力的产品的一种非常有用的方式。

We wanted a company where a thousand people could work, but it'll look like 10 people did it.

我们想要一家可以容纳 1000 名员工的公司，但看起来只有 10 个人做到了。

Sorry, that was a bit of a brain dump, but that is a little bit of a universal theory for how we develop products now.

抱歉，这有点令人费解，但这是我们现在如何开发产品的通用理论。

And I could go into a lot more detail, but I probably will stop there.

我可以讲更多细节，但我可能就到此为止。

Lenny: That was amazing.

莱尼：那真是太棒了。

You touched on all of the things I want to talk about.

你谈到了我想谈的所有事情。

So I'm going to-

所以我要-

Brian Chesky: Oh, gee.

布莱恩·切斯基：哦，天啊。

So we can go deeper and deeper because the rabbit hole goes deep.

所以我们可以越走越深，因为兔子洞很深。

Lenny: Yeah, exactly.

莱尼：是的，完全正确。

Exactly.

确切地。

So I'm going to pull on a couple threads.

所以我要拉几条线索。

The first is this idea of a single roadmap you talked about.

第一个是您谈到的单一路线图的想法。

And what this reminds me of is I was talking to another very prominent CEO of a public company and he pointed out that there's this cycle that he sees a lot of founders go through where they initially run the show, they're in charge, they tell people what to build, and then over time they're encouraged to delegate and to empower and it leads to a bunch of optimization work and small thinking maybe.

这让我想起，我正在与一家上市公司的另一位非常杰出的首席执行官交谈，他指出，他看到很多创始人都会经历这样的循环：他们最初主持节目，他们负责，他们告诉人们要构建什么，然后随着时间的推移，他们被鼓励委派和授权，这可能会导致一堆优化工作和小思考。

And you talked about bureaucracy and politics.

你谈到了官僚主义和政治。

And then eventually you realize I need to take the reins again and drive the ship and take back control of what's happening.

然后最终你意识到我需要再次掌管并驾驶这艘船并重新控制正在发生的事情。

And it feels like you went on that journey.

感觉就像你踏上了那段旅程。

Brian Chesky: That's exactly how it went, and that's how it goes almost at every company I've heard of.

Brian Chesky：事情就是这样，我听说过的几乎每家公司都是这样。

By the way, I think that many years ago, I remember I think reading a blog post by Ben Horowitz saying that a lot of people tell product led founders or engineering led founders to step away and delegate their product to other people, but suddenly they've delegated away the thing they're best at.

顺便说一句，我想很多年前，我记得我读过 Ben Horowitz 的一篇博客文章，说很多人告诉产品主导的创始人或工程主导的创始人离开并将他们的产品委托给其他人，但突然他们把自己最擅长的事情委托给了别人。

The thing that is hardest for them to replace.

对他们来说最难取代的东西。

So we don't have a chief product officer title, but if we had one, it would be me.

所以我们没有首席产品官的头衔，但如果有的话，那就是我。

I wouldn't have a chief product officer.

我不会有首席产品官。

I think the CEO should be basically the chief product officer of a product or tech company.

我认为首席执行官基本上应该是产品或科技公司的首席产品官。

If the CEO is not the chief product officer then I don't know if they're a product or tech led company.

如果首席执行官不是首席产品官，那么我不知道他们是产品主导型公司还是技术主导型公司。

Maybe that's okay if they're an ops company or if they're a marketing company or if they're not a tech company at all.

如果他们是一家运营公司，或者他们是一家营销公司，或者他们根本不是一家科技公司，也许这没什么问题。

But ultimately I think the founder or CEO should be that person.

但最终我认为创始人或首席执行官应该是那个人。

Brian Chesky: So when we were starting Airbnb, it was probably the three of us.

Brian Chesky：所以当我们创办 Airbnb 时，可能是我们三个人。

As you know, I think Airbnb was a unique situation where it was three of us.

如您所知，我认为 Airbnb 的情况很独特，只有我们三个人。

I don't think any of us was that dominant.

我认为我们中没有人那么占主导地位。

I probably played the closest thing to the role of the people listening, the closest thing to the role of the product manager.

我可能扮演了最接近倾听者的角色，最接近产品经理的角色。

But again, I did marketing, I did design, I did ops, I did a little bit of everything.

但同样，我做了营销，我做了设计，我做了运营，我什么都做了一点。

So I was basically everything but engineering.

所以我基本上什么都干，除了工程。

And then as we grew, I started getting more and more hands off in the product.

然后，随着我们的成长，我开始越来越不干涉产品。

Brian Chesky: And I always remember Lenny there was this paradox where the less involved I was in a project ...

布莱恩·切斯基：我一直记得莱尼有一个悖论，我参与项目的次数越少......

Let me be clear.

让我说清楚。

There were times I inserted myself and dysfunction occurred.

有时我插入自己并发生功能障碍。

That is absolutely true.

这是绝对正确的。

And that was just a learning experience for me.

这对我来说只是一次学习经历。

But there was this other scenario where the less involved I was in the project, the more spin there was, the less clear the goals, the less advocacy the team had, the less resources, the fewer resources they had.

但还有另一种情况，我参与项目的次数越少，项目的旋转就越多，目标就越不明确，团队的倡导就越少，资源就越少，他们拥有的资源就越少。

And then therefore the slower they moved.

因此他们移动得越慢。

And the slower they moved, the more they assumed it was because I was too involved.

他们动作越慢，他们就越认为这是因为我太投入了。

Because people assume that our natural equilibrium's to move fast so if we're moving slow, it's because of an over involvement in leadership and therefore I would get less involved.

因为人们认为我们的自然平衡是快速发展，所以如果我们进展缓慢，那是因为领导过度参与，因此我会减少参与。

I would give teams more control.

我会给团队更多的控制权。

I would give them teams more empowerment.

我会给他们团队更多的权力。

And the more I kept giving people what they asked for initially, they may have been happy, but the outcome of it was always, it seemed weirdly like they got less of what they wanted.

我越是不断地满足人们最初要求的东西，他们可能会很高兴，但结果总是，奇怪的是，他们得到的东西似乎越来越少。

They wanted to move faster so I'd empower them and move slower.

他们想要更快地行动，所以我会授权他们并放慢速度。

Brian Chesky: And again, how that happened is what I described.

布莱恩·切斯基：再说一遍，这是如何发生的，正如我所描述的。

That you end up in a situation where you're delegating down.

你最终会陷入一种被放权的境地。

So I think that things were getting worse and slower and slower and slower.

所以我认为事情变得越来越糟、越来越慢、越来越慢。

2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019.

2015、2016、2017、2018、2019。

And by 2019 we were spending a billion dollars on AdWords.

到 2019 年，我们在 AdWords 上花费了 10 亿美元。

We weren't really investing in the brand.

我们并没有真正投资这个品牌。

We were doing a huge amount of AB testing.

我们正在进行大量的 AB 测试。

I think AB testing is important in times.

我认为AB测试有时很重要。

Actually, let me clarify AB testing.

实际上，让我澄清一下AB测试。

We don't test blue versus green.

我们不测试蓝色与绿色。

We have a control and a treatment like I think we did when you were here.

我们有控制和治疗，就像你在这里时我们所做的那样。

So we have a design.

所以我们有一个设计。

We might do a holdback occasionally to see how the thing is working.

我们可能会偶尔停下来看看事情是如何运作的。

But if we do an AB test, there has to be a hypothesis.

但如果我们做AB测试，就必须有一个假设。

If we don't have a hypothesis and A is better than B, then we're stuck with B.

如果我们没有假设并且 A 比 B 更好，那么我们就只能选择 B。

And that's a really, really big problem, but we can never change it.

这是一个非常非常大的问题，但我们永远无法改变它。

Brian Chesky: And then imagine 10 teams doing AB testing.

Brian Chesky：然后想象 10 个团队正在进行 AB 测试。

Imagine if you designed software the way you designed a house or design a house the way design software.

想象一下，如果您像设计房屋一样设计软件，或者像设计软件一样设计房屋。

And we AB test a sofa.

我们对沙发进行 AB 测试。

And we said, well, how does this sofa work?

我们说，这个沙发是如何工作的？

And it seems like with this sofa that we've AB tested people spend more time in the living room, so therefore people are going to like this room better.

看来我们对这张沙发进行了 AB 测试，人们在客厅里待的时间更长，因此人们会更喜欢这个房间。

But actually the sofa has a relationship to the end stands which have a relationship to the lamps which have a relationship to the carpet or the rug which have a relationship to the television which have a relationship to the house and everything else.

但实际上，沙发与终端架有关系，终端架与灯有关系，与地毯或地毯有关系，与电视有关系，与房子和其他一切都有关系。

So you have to think about the whole cohesive system.

所以你必须考虑整个内聚系统。

And I started realizing that.

我开始意识到这一点。

I asked one person on your team, somebody you know well, and I asked him, I said, "I feel like I open our app and the product hasn't changed and four years." I remember saying this, 2018, 2019.

我问了你团队中的一个人，一个你很熟悉的人，我问他，我说，“我感觉我打开我们的应用程序，产品四年来都没有改变。”我记得说过这样的话，2018年，2019年。

And this person described that you know well as just the way we were doing things.

这个人描述说，你很了解我们做事的方式。

The initial way we were doing things to move fast had made us move slow.

我们最初的快速行动方式却让我们行动缓慢。

Brian Chesky: So what we ended up doing is ...

Brian Chesky：所以我们最终做的是......

It was now late 2019.

现在已经是 2019 年底了。

I don't know what to do.

我不知道该怎么办。

I'm like, the product is slow, the app seems to not change, costs are rising.

我想，产品很慢，应用程序似乎没有改变，成本在上升。

I keep adding more people.

我不断增加更多的人。

There seems to be more politics.

似乎政治因素更多了。

By politics I mean advocating for individual interests rather than the whole company.

我所说的政治是指倡导个人利益而不是整个公司的利益。

More bureaucracy meaning meetings about meetings about meetings and a lot of dependencies.

更多的官僚主义意味着关于会议的会议和很多依赖性。

People were describing working 80 hours and getting 20 hours of productive work done, which is just a crazy ratio a week.

人们描述每周工作 80 小时并完成 20 小时的生产性工作，这是一个疯狂的比率。

And I didn't really quite know what to do.

我真的不知道该怎么办。

Brian Chesky: And then right before the pandemic, I meet two people that really affected how I thought about things.

布莱恩·切斯基：就在大流行之前，我遇到了两个真正影响了我思考问题的人。

The first was Hiroki Asai.

第一个是浅井宏树。

Hiroki now works at Airbnb.

Hiroki 现在在 Airbnb 工作。

He's one of my executives and actually product design, product marketing design and marketing report into him.

他是我的一位高管，实际上产品设计、产品营销设计和营销都向他汇报。

And he was a creative director for Apple.

他是苹果公司的创意总监。

So he worked for Steve Jobs, was basically dotted line to Steve for many, many years.

所以他为史蒂夫·乔布斯工作，基本上与史蒂夫有很多很多年的关系。

Came from graphic design.

来自平面设计。

Eventually ran all of marketing communications.

最终完成了所有营销传播。

In Apple Marketing Communications, they actually designed the app.

在苹果营销传播中，他们实际上设计了该应用程序。

They made the app.

他们制作了应用程序。

They designed all the marketing touchpoints for the store.

他们为商店设计了所有营销接触点。

So it wasn't just ads, it was every brand touchpoint they were responsible.

因此，这不仅仅是广告，而是他们负责的每个品牌接触点。

So everything flowed through marketing.

所以一切都通过营销来进行。

And so marketing became the governing factor that made everything really organized.

因此，营销成为使一切真正组织起来的主导因素。

Brian Chesky: I met another person or got reacquainted a person named Jony Ive.

Brian Chesky：我遇到了另一个人，或者重新认识了一个叫 Jony Ive 的人。

And Jony Ive was the head of industrial design and Chief Design Officer at Apple.

Jony Ive 是苹果公司的工业设计主管兼首席设计官。

And they described this way of running a company that was totally different than the way that I was running it.

他们描述的这种经营公司的方式与我经营公司的方式完全不同。

It was basically the way that Steve Jobs ran Apple from about 1998 until he died in 2011.

从 1998 年左右到 2011 年去世，这基本上就是史蒂夫·乔布斯 (Steve Jobs) 管理苹果公司的方式。

Apple somewhat runs it this way today, but the services is turning into a division and they are just so big that I think it's not a one-to-one anymore, but they are still technically run this way.

苹果今天有点以这种方式运行，但服务正在变成一个部门，而且它们太大了，我认为它不再是一对一的，但从技术上讲，它们仍然以这种方式运行。

And I had this image of not being divisional because we were running ...

我有这样的印象：我们没有分裂，因为我们正在跑步……

We had 10 divisions.

我们有10个师。

We had a flights division and we had a homes division which was divided to pro hosts and core hosts and lux and we had business travel and we had a magazine and we had experiences and we had .org and we had China.

我们有一个航班部门，我们有一个家庭部门，分为专业房东、核心房东和豪华房，我们有商务旅行，我们有杂志，我们有经验，我们有.org，我们有中国。

So we had these 10 different divisions all going in 10 different directions.

所以我们有这 10 个不同的部门，都朝着 10 个不同的方向发展。

And I created this culture where everyone would be a business manager or business leader, general manager, which made them want to create many general managers.

我创造了这种文化，每个人都可以成为业务经理或业务领导者、总经理，这使他们想要创建许多总经理。

And so the company kept getting subdivided, subdivided, subdivided and that made it very, very difficult to turn.

因此，公司不断地细分、细分、再细分，这使得转型变得非常非常困难。

Brian Chesky: And this was all about me delegating responsibility.

布莱恩·切斯基：这就是我委派责任的全部内容。

The problem is if you're running a divisional company, you're a product-led founder ...

问题是，如果你经营的是一家部门公司，那么你就是一个以产品为主导的创始人......

What are you doing?

你在做什么？

Strategy, capital allocation.

战略、资本配置。

My job went from proactive to very reactive.

我的工作从主动变为被动。

I was reacting to a lot of things.

我对很多事情都有反应。

I was in a lot of meetings.

我参加了很多会议。

Trying to adjudicate different issues between groups.

尝试裁决不同群体之间的不同问题。

So then the pandemic occurs and I had this image on mind.

然后大流行发生了，我脑海中浮现出这样的画面。

It's like I have this dream that I could run a company much more like a startup.

就像我有一个梦想，我可以像初创公司一样经营一家公司。

I remember going on a walk with Joe and Nate in Bolinas.

我记得和乔和内特在博利纳斯散步。

It was October 2019.

那是 2019 年 10 月。

And I told them I had this dream that I left the company 10 years ago and they just asked me to come back.

我告诉他们我有一个梦想，我十年前离开了公司，他们只是让我回来。

And I said, "I was horrified at what I found." And they said, "Well, what'd you find?" I said, "I found a company that on the one hand had amazing culture and people with a great mission, with a brand people really loved, but we lost our design roots.

我说：“我对我的发现感到震惊。”他们说：“那么，你发现了什么？”我说：“我发现一家公司一方面拥有令人惊叹的文化和肩负伟大使命的员工，拥有人们真正喜爱的品牌，但我们失去了设计根源。

We weren't investing in the longterm.

我们没有进行长期投资。

We were obsessing over hitting metrics.

我们痴迷于命中指标。

We didn't actually have any cohesive understanding of what we were doing.

我们实际上对我们正在做的事情没有任何一致的理解。

It was really hard to get work done.

完成工作真的很难。

A lot of the great people were leaving and cost was rising and growth was slowing." And that was exactly what was happening.

许多优秀人才离开，成本上升，增长放缓。”而这正是正在发生的事情。

Brian Chesky: And then the pandemic occurred and we lost 80% of our business in eight weeks.

Brian Chesky：然后大流行发生了，我们在八周内损失了 80% 的业务。

And then suddenly we're like, oh my God.

然后突然我们就想，天哪。

I remember basically staring into the abyss.

我记得基本上是凝视着深渊。

And luckily I've never had a near-death experience, but the way it's been described to me is it's like your life flashes before your eyes and you have clarity.

幸运的是，我从未有过濒死体验，但对我的描述是，就像你的生命在你眼前闪现，你很清晰。

And that's what happened to our business.

这就是我们企业发生的事情。

We had a near-death business experience and our business flashed before our eyes.

我们有过一次濒临死亡的创业经历，我们的生意在我们眼前闪现。

And so suddenly I basically got into action and I said, I'm going to run it this other way where I'm going to get back involved in the details.

所以突然我基本上开始行动，我说，我将以另一种方式运行它，我将重新参与细节。

And by the way, Lenny, here's the funny thing.

顺便说一句，莱尼，有趣的是。

Before the crisis, a lot of people felt like I was too involved in different areas.

在危机发生之前，很多人觉得我过多地涉足不同领域。

Once the crisis happened, guess what happened?

一旦危机发生，你猜发生了什么？

People were like, what do we do?

人们说，我们该怎么办？

We need you more involved.

我们需要您更多地参与。

And so I got more involved.

所以我更多地参与其中。

Brian Chesky: And when I got involved, I made the following changes.

Brian Chesky：当我参与其中时，我做了以下改变。

The first thing I did is I said, everything we're doing has to be written down and put into a Google sheet.

我做的第一件事是我说，我们所做的一切都必须写下来并放入谷歌表格中。

It turns out people couldn't even write down everything they were doing.

事实证明，人们甚至无法写下他们所做的一切。

I remember one person told me, "We're doing too many things for me to ever be able to document." I'm like, "What?" But anyways, we eventually got everyone to write everything down.

我记得有人告诉我，“我们正在做太多事情，我无法记录下来。”我想，“什么？”但无论如何，我们最终让每个人都写下了一切。

And I said, okay, we can do about 20% of these things.

我说，好吧，我们可以做其中 20% 左右的事情。

And so if everyone says, "Oh, Airbnb is simple.

因此，如果每个人都说：“哦，Airbnb 很简单。

I'm only doing three things." Yes, but you're one of a thousand people.

我只做三件事。”是的，但你只是一千个人中的一员。

So actually we're doing 3000 things.

所以实际上我们正在做 3000 件事。

So instead of one team doing three things, three teams should do one thing.

因此，三个团队应该做一件事，而不是一个团队做三件事。

So we totally cut down the number of projects.

所以我们完全减少了项目数量。

We removed layers of management.

我们取消了管理层。

I wanted to be as few layers as possible from leaders of the team.

我希望与团队领导者保持尽可能少的联系。

We went to a functional model.

我们采用了功能模型。

We went back to a startup.

我们又回到了初创公司。

Brian Chesky: So we said, we're not going to have divisional leaders.

布莱恩·切斯基：所以我们说，我们不会有部门领导。

We're going to have design, engineering, product which turned to product marketing and marketing and communications and sales and operations, all the functions of a startup.

我们将拥有设计、工程、产品，然后转向产品营销、营销、传播、销售和运营，以及初创公司的所有职能。

I said, we're going to have fewer employees.

我说，我们要减少员工数量。

We're going to have fewer more senior people.

我们将拥有更少的高级人员。

There's a great saying that the best way to slow a project down is add more people to it.

有句话说得好：减缓项目速度的最好方法就是增加更多的人员。

And so we felt like very few employees.

所以我们感觉自己的员工很少。

We have fewer than 7,000 employees today.

目前我们的员工人数不足 7,000 人。

As a relative comparison, I think Uber has 30,000.

作为相对比较，我认为Uber有3万。

And it's not to say they're big, it's just say that's how small we are and we've really benefited from having not a lot of employees.

这并不是说它们很大，只是说我们很小，而且我们确实从没有很多员工中受益。

Brian Chesky: So we made sure that every executive was an expert in their functional domain.

Brian Chesky：因此，我们确保每位高管都是其职能领域的专家。

So you know how there's a lot of engineering managers that aren't that technical or maybe not a lot, but they exist.

所以你知道有很多工程经理的技术水平不高，或者可能不是很多，但他们确实存在。

Or there's designers, but there's design leaders who lead the people.

或者有设计师，但有领导人民的设计领导者。

A design leader's job should be managing the design first, the people second.

设计领导者的工作应该首先是管理设计，其次是人员。

That's what Jony did.

乔尼就是这么做的。

They're interchangeable.

它们是可以互换的。

I could never imagine Jony out at Apple just being a manager of people.

我无法想象乔尼在苹果只是一名员工经理。

He was looking and designing the work with the team.

他正在与团队一起寻找和设计作品。

How do you manage the people without managing their work?

如果不管理他们的工作，你如何管理他们？

How do you give them development if you're not in the details with them on the work?

如果你不关心他们的工作细节，你如何给予他们发展？

So the same thing is true.

所以同样的事情也是如此。

So people had to be experts.

所以人们必须是专家。

Everyone had to be an expert.

每个人都必须是专家。

Brian Chesky: I stopped pushing decision-making down.

布莱恩·切斯基：我不再压制决策。

I pulled it in.

我把它拉了进去。

I created one shared consciousness and I said, the top 30, 40 people in the company are going to have one continuous conversation.

我创造了一种共同意识，我说，公司中排名前 30、40 的人将进行一场持续的对话。

Metrics are going to be subordinate to the calendar.

指标将服从于日历。

So we're going to have a roadmap.

所以我们将制定一个路线图。

It's going to be a two-year roadmap.

这将是一个为期两年的路线图。

We'll update the roadmap literally every month.

我们每月都会更新路线图。

People may wonder, well, what if the world changes?

人们可能会想，如果世界发生变化怎么办？

Yeah, it changes every day.

是的，每天都在变化。

So the roadmap's something where the next month doesn't change, but two years out it changes.

因此，路线图下个月不会改变，但两年后就会改变。

It's a rolling roadmap.

这是一个滚动的路线图。

And by the way, if Ukraine gets invaded and you want to provide housing for refugees, you can still pivot people and adapt very quickly.

顺便说一句，如果乌克兰遭到入侵，而你想为难民提供住房，你仍然可以调整人员并很快适应。

We house 120,000 refugees.

我们收容了 120,000 名难民。

So you still keep a reserve of resources to be able to pivot and do things because there's always unexpected events.

因此，您仍然保留资源储备，以便能够进行调整和做事，因为总会发生意外事件。

Brian Chesky: I created this new function called product marketing.

Brian Chesky：我创建了这个新功能，称为产品营销。

We basically described what that is.

我们基本上描述了那是什么。

I made the group much smaller.

我把小组缩小了很多。

I took a lot of product managers, I reassigned them as program managers.

我聘用了很多产品经理，然后将他们重新分配为项目经理。

I had many of them trained in actual program management because their roles got much bigger.

我让他们中的许多人接受了实际项目管理的培训，因为他们的角色变得更大了。

Program management at Airbnb is a high status job.

Airbnb 的项目管理是一项地位很高的工作。

A lot of companies, it's like a coordination job.

很多公司，这就像一个协调工作。

At Airbnb we said because we're going to do launches, it's high status.

在 Airbnb，我们说因为我们要推出新产品，所以地位很高。

We said we're going to do two launches a year and you can't ship something unless it's on the roadmap.

我们说过，我们将每年发布两次，除非在路线图上，否则你不能发布任何东西。

So every single thing in the company, with the exception of some infrastructure projects have to be on the roadmap.

因此，除了一些基础设施项目外，公司的每一件事都必须纳入路线图。

And then I'm going to review all the work.

然后我将回顾所有的工作。

And so we create the CEO review schedule where I said I'm getting back involved in the project and I'm going to review all the product and all the marketing.

因此，我们制定了首席执行官审查时间表，我说我将重新参与该项目，并且我将审查所有产品和所有营销活动。

So every project I would review every week, every two weeks, every four weeks, every eight weeks or every 12 weeks.

因此，我每周、每两周、每四周、每八周或每 12 周都会审核每个项目。

There'd be a cadence.

会有节奏。

Brian Chesky: And then I had a head program manager that would score all the projects.

Brian Chesky：然后我有一位首席项目经理来对所有项目进行评分。

Either they're green, yellow, or red.

它们要么是绿色、黄色或红色。

Meaning they're on track or not on track to ship.

这意味着它们是否已按计划发货。

Whether we thought they were work, we don't know until after we ship it.

我们是否认为它们是工作，直到发货后我们才知道。

But I use the reviews of the work every single week.

但我每周都会使用作品评论。

And the reason there's not a lot of bureaucracy and the reason you don't need any influence at Airbnb is I'd review the work and if something wasn't happening, then I would stop the meeting and say, "Why isn't this happening?" And we would all get together.

Airbnb 没有太多官僚作风，也不需要任何影响力，原因是我会审查工作，如果没有发生任何事情，那么我会停止会议并说：“为什么这没有发生？”我们都会聚在一起。

And so you couldn't have a situation where a team wouldn't collaborate.

因此，不可能出现团队不合作的情况。

It would be like I could then feel the work of an individual engineer.

就好像我可以感受到单个工程师的工作一样。

Brian Chesky: Because imagine if we're a car company and I see the car prototype every week and I notice there's something about the tires off.

布莱恩·切斯基：因为想象一下，如果我们是一家汽车公司，我每周都会看到汽车原型，我注意到轮胎有些脱落。

Now I can identify the individual person who was blocked.

现在我可以识别被阻止的个人了。

So every week I would try to see the equivalent of at least a semi assembly of the entire new product we were working on, which allowed me to identify with teams the different bottlenecks happening in the company.

因此，每周我都会尝试查看至少相当于我们正在开发的整个新产品的半组装，这使我能够与团队一起识别公司中发生的不同瓶颈。

The reviews were the thing that allowed us to dictate the pace.

评论让我们能够决定节奏。

And so because we had all these reviews, I didn't need to mandate people going back to an office.

因此，因为我们进行了所有这些审查，所以我不需要强制人们返回办公室。

I didn't really care where they worked because I could track how well they were working because of the review cycle.

我并不真正关心他们在哪里工作，因为我可以通过审查周期跟踪他们的工作情况。

So these were some of the changes that we made.

这些是我们所做的一些改变。

We also started really building out much more of a marketing communications and creative function.

我们还开始真正建立更多的营销传播和创意功能。

We built our own in-house creative agency.

我们建立了自己的内部创意机构。

So we use production partners, but we don't use Wieden+Kennedy or ChiatDay or any of those anymore.

所以我们使用制作合作伙伴，但我们不再使用 Wieden+Kennedy 或 ChiatDay 或任何其他公司。

We actually built our own in-house agency, so to speak, which is a creative group.

我们实际上建立了自己的内部机构，可以说，这是一个创意团队。

Brian Chesky: The creative group does not just the ads but the creative on the product.

Brian Chesky：创意团队不仅负责广告，还负责产品的创意。

So we got really, really functional.

所以我们变得非常非常实用。

We got rid of a function called UX writing, and we combined it with marketing writing.

我们去掉了一个叫做用户体验写作的功能，并将其与营销写作结合起来。

We said, wait, why don't we just have the best writers do everything?

我们说，等等，为什么我们不让最好的作家来做所有的事情呢？

Why is UX writing a separate function?

为什么 UX 编写一个单独的函数？

Because actually the emails, the app, the ads should all be one voice.

因为实际上电子邮件、应用程序、广告都应该是一种声音。

Now, there may be people that come from a different background, like there are people that come from UX, but they all roll up to one function of writing.

现在，可能有人来自不同的背景，比如有人来自用户体验，但他们都归结为一种写作功能。

And writing should not go to design.

写作不应该去设计。

Writing should go to a function called writing.

写入应该转到一个名为writing 的函数。

Unless you want your head of writing to report to design, then that doesn't make sense.

除非你希望你的写作主管向设计汇报，否则这是没有意义的。

So we really made a lot of those changes.

所以我们确实做了很多改变。

Brian Chesky: Just to round up the question that you asked, I think that way too many founders apologize for how they want to run the company.

布莱恩·切斯基（Brian Chesky）：总结一下你提出的问题，我认为太多的创始人为他们想要如何经营公司而道歉。

I don't know why they do, but I think they apologize for how they run the company.

我不知道他们为什么这样做，但我认为他们为自己经营公司的方式道歉。

They basically find some midpoint between how they want to run a company and how the people they lead want to run the company.

他们基本上在自己想要如何经营公司和他们领导的人想要如何经营公司之间找到了一些中间点。

If you're a founder, what I would tell you is the problem with finding a negotiation between how you want to run a company, the people you want, is that's a good way to make everyone miserable.

如果你是一名创始人，我要告诉你的是，在你想要如何经营一家公司和你想要的人之间找到谈判的问题是，这是一个让每个人都痛苦的好方法。

Because what everyone really wants is clarity and what everyone really wants is to be able to row in the same direction really quickly.

因为每个人真正想要的是清晰度，每个人真正想要的是能够非常快速地朝同一个方向划船。

And also if you try to appease employees, they may not even be there the whole time.

而且，如果你试图安抚员工，他们甚至可能不会一直在场。

So we have entire projects at the company where somebody advocated to do it, it was a big commitment and then they left and now we're still doing the project they advocated for.

因此，我们在公司有整个项目，有人主张这样做，这是一个很大的承诺，然后他们离开了，现在我们仍在做他们主张的项目。

So it really has to be something that everyone wants to sign up for, not just the person who's there because they might not always be there.

因此，它确实必须是每个人都想注册的东西，而不仅仅是在场的人，因为他们可能并不总是在那里。

Brian Chesky: I basically got involved in every single detail.

Brian Chesky：我基本上参与了每一个细节。

And I basically told leaders that leaders are in the details.

我基本上告诉领导者，领导者在于细节。

And there's this negative term called micromanagement, and I think there's a difference between micromanagement, which is telling people exactly what to do and being in the details.

有一个消极的术语叫做微观管理，我认为微观管理是有区别的，微观管理是告诉人们到底要做什么和关注细节。

Being the details is what every responsible company's board does to the CEO.

注重细节是每个负责任的公司董事会对首席执行官所做的事情。

That doesn't mean the board is telling them what to do.

这并不意味着董事会告诉他们该做什么。

But if you don't know the details, how do you know people are doing a good job?

但如果你不了解细节，你怎么知道人们做得很好呢？

People think that great leader's job is to hire people and just empower them to do a good job.

人们认为伟大领导者的工作就是雇用员工并授权他们做好工作。

Well, how do you know they're doing a good job if you're not in the details?

那么，如果你不了解细节，你怎么知道他们做得很好呢？

And so I made sure I was in the details and we really drove the product.

所以我确保我关注细节，我们真正推动了产品的发展。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Eppo.

Lenny：这一集是 Eppo 为您带来的。

Eppo is a next generation AB testing and feature management platform built by alums of Airbnb and Snowflake for modern growth teams.

Eppo 是由 Airbnb 和 Snowflake 的校友为现代增长团队构建的下一代 AB 测试和功能管理平台。

Companies like Twitch, Miro, ClickUp and DraftKings rely on Eppo to power their experiments.

Twitch、Miro、ClickUp 和 DraftKings 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。

Experimentation is increasingly essential for driving growth and for understanding the performance of new features.

实验对于推动增长和了解新功能的性能越来越重要。

And Eppo helps you increase experimentation velocity while unlocking rigorous deep analysis in a way that no other commercial tool does.

Eppo 可以帮助您提高实验速度，同时以其他商业工具无法做到的方式解锁严格的深度分析。

Lenny: When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved most was our experimentation platform where could set up experiments easily, troubleshoot issues, and analyze performance all on my own.

Lenny：当我在 Airbnb 时，我最喜欢的事情之一就是我们的实验平台，在这里我可以轻松地设置实验、解决问题并分析性能，一切都由我自己完成。

Eppo does all that and more with advanced statistical methods that can help you shave weeks off experiment time, an accessible UI for diving deeper into performance and out of the box reporting that helps you avoid annoying prolonged analytics cycles.

Eppo 通过先进的统计方法完成了所有这些工作，可以帮助您缩短数周的实验时间，可访问的用户界面可以更深入地了解性能，开箱即用的报告可以帮助您避免烦人的长时间分析周期。

Eppo also makes it easy for you to share experiment insights with your team, sparking new ideas for the AB testing flywheel.

Eppo 还使您可以轻松地与您的团队分享实验见解，激发 AB 测试飞轮的新想法。

Eppo powers experimentation across every use case, including product, growth, machine learning, monetization and email marketing.

Eppo 为每个用例提供实验支持，包括产品、增长、机器学习、货币化和电子邮件营销。

Check out Eppo at get eppo.com/lenny and 10x your experiment velocity.

请访问 get eppo.com/lenny 查看 Eppo，将您的实验速度提高 10 倍。

That's get E-P-P-O .com/lenny.

那就访问 E-P-P-O .com/lenny。

Lenny: You guys found such a unique way of working.

莱尼：你们发现了一种如此独特的工作方式。

I've never heard of a company working in these ways, in so many contrarian ways.

我从未听说过一家公司以如此多的逆势方式运作。

I think it's going to be a really interesting case study as things progress.

我认为随着事情的进展，这将是一个非常有趣的案例研究。

Essentially what you've done is shut down traditional growth channels or at least limited them.

本质上，你所做的就是关闭或至少限制传统的增长渠道。

Paid growth and maybe SEO, maybe referrals at least for a while.

付费增长，也许还有搜索引擎优化，也许至少在一段时间内是推荐。

And you've shifted to let's just make an awesome product and tell people about it.

你已经转变为让我们制作一个很棒的产品并告诉人们它。

And our bet is that's going to grow.

我们打赌这个数字将会增长。

Do you feel like this can work for most other products or is there a consumer specific opportunity?

您认为这适用于大多数其他产品吗？或者是否存在特定于消费者的机会？

What advice would you give to founders that are thinking about, man, we should try something like this?

对于那些正在考虑我们应该尝试这样的事情的创始人，你有什么建议？

Brian Chesky: I think that this methodology can work for everyone, but I don't think you have to be as ideological or have to go all the way to 100.

Brian Chesky：我认为这种方法论对每个人都适用，但我认为你不必那么意识形态化或者必须一路走到100。

I still think growth channels matter.

我仍然认为增长渠道很重要。

To be clear, we still spend money on performance marketing.

需要明确的是，我们仍然在效果营销上花钱。

We still do measure conversion and we will do some experiments.

我们仍然会进行测量转换，并且会做一些实验。

Think of conversion and growth optimization as like running a football down a field and think of these big leaps as passes.

将转化和增长优化视为在球场上奔跑的足球，将这些大的飞跃视为传球。

You should probably be doing 80% passes, 20% running the ball down the field, and a lot of companies that do 80% running down the ball down the field and 20% passes.

你可能应该做 80% 的传球，20% 的跑球，很多公司都做 80% 的跑球和 20% 的传球。

So I think that this methodology will work for everyone.

所以我认为这种方法对每个人都适用。

Brian Chesky: Here are the things I believe.

布莱恩·切斯基：以下是我所相信的事情。

I'll give you a checklist.

我会给你一份清单。

Number one, I think that the CEO, unless they're not a product person, should think of themselves as this chief product officer and they should be involved in the product.

第一，我认为首席执行官，除非他们不是产品人员，否则应该将自己视为首席产品官，并且他们应该参与产品。

Number two, if you're not functional, I would at least think about everyone being really close together.

第二，如果你不能发挥作用，我至少会认为每个人都非常亲密。

So here's another way of saying it, Lenny.

所以这是另一种说法，莱尼。

Every product manager should be interconnected and know what everyone else is doing.

每个产品经理都应该相互联系并知道其他人在做什么。

They shouldn't be independently siloed unless they really are running separate companies or separate orgs and they have no dependencies.

它们不应该是独立的，除非它们确实运行着单独的公司或单独的组织并且没有依赖性。

I think that every leader should be an expert in what they're leading.

我认为每个领导者都应该是他们所领导的领域的专家。

There should be no people managers in the entire company.

整个公司不应该有职能经理。

And when I say people managers, meaning your only responsibility is people, not the work or not the domain.

当我说职能经理时，意思是你唯一的责任是人，而不是工作或领域。

Because you can't manage people devoid of their work.

因为你无法管理没有工作的人。

Brian Chesky: Imagine a fire chief and they don't know anything about putting out fires.

布莱恩·切斯基：想象一下，一位消防队长，他们对灭火一无所知。

That's crazy.

太疯狂了。

You have to know the subject matter.

你必须了解主题。

People should aim to have as few people as possible on their team.

人们应该致力于团队中的人员越少越好。

I'm not saying eliminate people.

我并不是说消灭人。

I mean grow slowly and do not be reckless.

我的意思是慢慢成长，不要鲁莽。

Five teams should do one thing rather than one team do five things.

五支球队应该做一件事，而不是一支球队做五件事。

So that's just a metaphor.

所以这只是一个比喻。

But people should work together.

但人们应该共同努力。

I think that people should consider doing launches.

我认为人们应该考虑进行发布。

You can by the way, ship every hour of every day, but then package it and tell a story if you want hold the product back.

顺便说一句，您可以每天每小时发货，但如果您想保留产品，则可以将其包装并讲述一个故事。

I think that teams should use data, but they should also use research and intuition.

我认为团队应该使用数据，但他们也应该使用研究和直觉。

There's a designer called Charles Eames that said you can't delegate understanding.

有一位名叫 Charles Eames 的设计师说过，你不能委托他人理解。

If you're going to do AB experiments or measure data, you have to understand what it means.

如果你要做AB实验或者测量数据，你必须明白它的含义。

I think that you have to have an intuition.

我认为你必须有直觉。

Intuition comes not from arbitrariness, it comes from understanding.

直觉不是来自任意，而是来自理解。

I would make sure that you have engineering and design ideally report to the founder, product led person.

我会确保你的工程和设计工作最好向创始人、产品负责人汇报。

I would not have design under product unless you have an extremely good reason or the product person is a designer.

我不会在产品下进行设计，除非你有充分的理由或者产品人员是设计师。

Brian Chesky: I would try to think about product management, expanding the responsibility and including distribution.

Brian Chesky：我会尝试考虑产品管理、扩大责任并包括分销。

Understanding the customer and teaching people how to tell a story.

了解客户并教人们如何讲故事。

I would try to make sure that the product managers are a combination of art and science.

我会尽力确保产品经理是艺术与科学的结合。

I do not think you want purely technical product managers doing things if they're going to work with non-technical functions.

我认为如果纯粹的技术产品经理要处理非技术功能，那么你不希望他们做事。

If they're only work technical functions, that's fine, but they're going to work with non-technical functions, I think that's a problem.

如果他们只处理技术功能，那很好，但他们要处理非技术功能，我认为这是一个问题。

I should make sure that marketing and engineering are interconnected.

我应该确保营销和工程是相互关联的。

I would make sure that you have as few layers between a CEO and other people.

我会确保首席执行官和其他人之间的层级尽可能少。

If you're a CEO, every direct to your direct should be a implicit dotted line to you.

如果你是一位首席执行官，那么每一条直接到你的直接信息对你来说都应该是一条隐含的虚线。

So I treat every direct to my direct as if they're a direct report.

因此，我对待每一位直接向我直接汇报的人就好像他们是直接下属一样。

A dotted line.

一条虚线。

I don't try to conflict with the direction of my team, but I always want to know what another layer below me is doing.

我不想与团队的方向发生冲突，但我总是想知道我下面的另一层在做什么。

Brian Chesky: I think you should think of each release as a chapter of a story or like an episode of a TV series.

Brian Chesky：我认为你应该将每个版本视为故事的一个章节或电视剧的一集。

And you should think of your company in a five or 10 years story.

你应该用五年或十年的故事来思考你的公司。

You may not know where you are in 10 years, but you're telling this ongoing story.

你可能不知道十年后你在哪里，但你正在讲述这个正在进行的故事。

And most of all, I would say that everyone should row in the same direction.

最重要的是，我想说每个人都应该朝同一个方向划船。

If there's only one thing I said in this interview today, actually I'm not sure what it would be, but I think a good candidate is try to get everyone to row together in the same direction.

如果我在今天的采访中只说一件事，实际上我不确定会是什么，但我认为一个好的候选人就是努力让每个人都朝着同一个方向前进。

Otherwise, why the hell are you all in the same company?

不然你们怎么会在一个公司呢？

Lenny: Speaking of rowing in the same direction, you had a huge launch today.

莱尼：说到同一个方向划船，你今天有一个巨大的发射。

I know you wanted to talk about it.

我知道你想谈谈它。

Your winter release.

你的冬季发布。

And it is the culmination of a lot of the things you're talking about.

这是你所谈论的许多事情的顶峰。

I'd love to hear just some of the stuff you're launching.

我很想听听您即将推出的一些产品。

Brian Chesky: Let me just back up Lenny.

布莱恩·切斯基：让我支持莱尼。

You know this problem really well.

你非常了解这个问题。

One of the best things of Airbnb is that we're this marketplace where guests and hosts come together and we have all this unique inventory and people list it on Airbnb.

Airbnb 最好的事情之一是，我们是房客和房东聚集在一起的市场，我们拥有所有这些独特的库存，人们将其列在 Airbnb 上。

And every home is one of a kind and we have seven million homes and there's all this surprise and all this delight.

每个家庭都是独一无二的，我们有七百万个家庭，充满惊喜和喜悦。

The problem is that every home is one of a kind and you often don't know what you're going to get.

问题是每一个房子都是独一无二的，你常常不知道你会得到什么。

And so a lot of guests have described checking into Airbnb as a moment of truth.

因此，很多房客都将入住 Airbnb 描述为一个关键时刻。

Where when you open the door you find out if the home is exactly the home that you booked.

当您打开门时，您会发现该房屋是否正是您预订的房屋。

And this turns out to be a big problem for people wanting to book an Airbnb.

这对于想要预订 Airbnb 的人来说是一个大问题。

And when we survey guests or people who don't use Airbnb, the number one ...

当我们对房客或不使用 Airbnb 的人进行调查时，排名第一的......

Hotels are not as special, they're not as unique, but the advantage they have is you know what you're going to get.

酒店没有那么特别，没有那么独特，但它们的优势是你知道你会得到什么。

You know exactly what you're going to get.

你清楚地知道你会得到什么。

Brian Chesky: And so what we found is that reliability is Airbnb's achilles heel, or at least it has been.

Brian Chesky：我们发现可靠性是 Airbnb 的致命弱点，或者至少一直如此。

That with hotels you know what you're going to get an Airbnb you don't always know what you're going to get.

对于酒店来说，你知道你会得到什么，但在 Airbnb 上，你并不总是知道你会得到什么。

And so we asked ourselves, what if we could combine the uniqueness of Airbnb with the reliability that you've come to expect in a hotel?

因此我们问自己，如果我们能够将 Airbnb 的独特性与您对酒店所期望的可靠性结合起来，会怎样？

And that's what we've done with Guest Favorites.

这就是我们对“宾客最爱”所做的事情。

Guest Favorites are homes that guests in our community love the most.

宾客最爱是我们社区的宾客最喜爱的住宅。

We took 370 million reviews on Airbnb plus millions of customer service tickets, plus all the host cancellation data and we use all the signal to create the top two million homes.

我们在 Airbnb 上收集了 3.7 亿条评论，加上数百万张客户服务单，加上所有房东取消数据，我们使用所有信号来创建前 200 万间房屋。

This collection of two million homes that we call Guest Favorites because the guests rate the highest.

我们将这 200 万套住宅称为“宾客最爱”，因为宾客评价最高。

We think combine the uniqueness of Airbnb with a reliability you've come to expect in a hotel and I can't imagine there's a lot of use cases where you wouldn't want to book a Guest Favorite.

我们认为，将 Airbnb 的独特性与您对酒店所期望的可靠性结合起来，我无法想象有很多用例您不想预订宾客最爱的酒店。

Brian Chesky: We think that's also part of this broader system of ratings and reviews.

Brian Chesky：我们认为这也是更广泛的评级和评论体系的一部分。

You see, as you know, Airbnb is built on a system of trust and we invented this new way for people to trust one another, at least at scale through living together certainly.

如您所知，Airbnb 建立在信任系统的基础上，我们发明了这种新的方式让人们彼此信任，至少是通过共同生活在一定程度上信任彼此。

And we felt like the rating and review system could use a little bit of an upgrade.

我们觉得评级和评论系统可以进行一些升级。

So we obviously made some upgrades to ratings and reviews.

因此，我们显然对评级和评论进行了一些升级。

The final thing, and this brings up another point I might bring up, is we've completely overhauled the host tab.

最后一件事，这引出了我可能会提出的另一点，那就是我们已经彻底修改了主机选项卡。

One of the most important things when you get to an Airbnb is the listing is accurate.

当您入住 Airbnb 时，最重要的事情之一就是房源信息是否准确。

But the problem is that a lot of host listings don't have all the details up to date.

但问题是很多主机列表没有最新的所有详细信息。

So they might not describe perfectly their listing, they might not have filled up their amenities, they might not have a photo tour.

因此，他们可能没有完美地描述他们的房源，他们可能没有填写他们的便利设施，他们可能没有照片之旅。

And the reason why as we're doing research is because they found it was hard to manage their listing.

我们之所以进行研究，是因为他们发现很难管理他们的列表。

And it was hard to manage their listing because it was designed as this hodgepodge thing by different teams over many years.

管理他们的列表很困难，因为它是由不同团队多年来设计成的大杂烩。

Brian Chesky: Oh, here's the other thing, Lenny, when you were at Airbnb, we had a guest team and a host team.

Brian Chesky：哦，还有一件事，Lenny，当你在 Airbnb 工作时，我们有一个客座团队和一个房东团队。

We don't have a guest team and host team.

我们没有客队和主队。

We have a design team.

我们有一个设计团队。

We have a marketing team.

我们有一个营销团队。

We have an engineering team.

我们有一个工程团队。

The reason we don't break the app into guests and hosts anymore is because reviews affect guests and hosts.

我们不再将应用程序分为客人和房东的原因是评论会影响客人和房东。

It turns out that almost everything involves connecting the guest and host.

事实证明，几乎所有事情都涉及连接客人和主人。

When you have separate teams, they tend to have separate roadmaps that go in separate directions that become incompatible.

当你有不同的团队时，他们往往会有不同的路线图，这些路线图会朝着不同的方向发展，从而变得不兼容。

So we have product marketers that are responsible for guests and host things, but the designers and the engineers are fairly fungible and they can move from project to project.

因此，我们有产品营销人员负责客人和主持事务，但设计师和工程师是相当可替代的，他们可以从一个项目转移到另一个项目。

Brian Chesky: And then we keep some people, especially the product marketing people on a domain area, but we really want to make sure that we have designers and engineers covering a much larger surface.

Brian Chesky：然后我们保留了一些人，特别是某个领域的产品营销人员，但我们真的想确保我们有设计师和工程师覆盖更大的范围。

And so that's what we did.

这就是我们所做的。

We have this incredible new tab called the listing tab that we designed.

我们设计了这个令人难以置信的新选项卡，称为列表选项卡。

It's quite possibly one of the nicest things we ever designed.

这很可能是我们设计过的最好的东西之一。

If you go to my Twitter account, you'll see a little sizzle reel from some of the design we've done.

如果你访问我的 Twitter 帐户，你会看到我们所做的一些设计中的一点点嘶嘶声。

By the way, the design is a whole new aesthetic.

顺便说一句，设计是一种全新的美学。

I'd like to make the announcement that I think flat design is over or ending.

我想宣布，我认为扁平化设计已经结束。

I think if you remember the 2000s was dominated by skeuomorphism.

我想如果你还记得 2000 年代，拟物化占主导地位。

The 2010s have been dominated with the launch of iOS seven by flat design.

2010 年代以扁平化设计的 iOS 7 为主导。

And I think we're going to move back into a world with color, texture, dimensionality, more haptic feedback, but I don't think it's going to be skeuomorphism where it pretends to be a wood grain to reference a dashboard or leather, but I think it's going to have a sense of dimension.

我认为我们将回到一个有颜色、纹理、维度、更多触觉反馈的世界，但我不认为它会是拟物化，它假装成木纹来参考仪表板或皮革，但我认为它会有维度感。

Brian Chesky: I think the reason why is we're spending more and more time on screens and we want the screens to replicate some of what we see in the natural environment.

Brian Chesky：我认为原因是我们在屏幕上花费了越来越多的时间，我们希望屏幕能够复制我们在自然环境中看到的一些内容。

Light, texture.

光，质感。

I think it's more intuitive, it's more playful.

我认为它更直观，更有趣。

I think AI allows the development of more sophisticated interfaces.

我认为人工智能可以开发更复杂的界面。

People in AI are gravitating to image generating art that has got more dimension to it.

人工智能领域的人们被具有更多维度的图像生成艺术所吸引。

And so I think that we've really started to push this more three-dimensional, colorful aesthetic that I think it's going to be where a lot of interface design is going.

因此，我认为我们已经真正开始推动这种更加三维、色彩缤纷的美学，我认为这将是许多界面设计的发展方向。

And we built this AI powered photo tour where we created our own AI computer visioning language that we trained on 100 million photos and it can basically scan all your photos and organize them by room.

我们构建了这个人工智能驱动的照片之旅，我们创建了自己的人工智能计算机视觉语言，我们对 1 亿张照片进行了训练，它基本上可以扫描您的所有照片并按房间组织它们。

So that's what we did today.

这就是我们今天所做的。

Maybe just to round it up, what I would say is that none of this would've been possible in the old way of working.

也许只是为了总结一下，我想说的是，如果按照旧的工作方式，这一切都是不可能的。

We could have theoretically launched a lot of these features, but really getting them to work together has been key.

理论上我们可以推出很多这样的功能，但真正让它们协同工作才是关键。

And Guest Favorites has required the guests, people ...

而宾客最爱则要求宾客、人们……

You have to work with guests, you have to work with hosts, you have to essentially ...

你必须与客人合作，你必须与主人合作，你必须本质上......

You have to figure out how to communicate to the market.

你必须弄清楚如何与市场沟通。

So it's a much more integrated approach.

所以这是一种更加综合的方法。

Lenny: The designs you talked about, they are incredibly cute.

Lenny：你谈到的设计非常可爱。

You tweeted a little video of a lot of them, like the couch with little textures on it.

你在推特上发布了很多这样的小视频，比如上面有小纹理的沙发。

It is really cool.

真的很酷。

Also, the listing tab.

另外，还有列表选项卡。

I think people that aren't hosts don't understand how important the listing experience is to a host.

我认为不是房东的人不明白房源体验对房东来说有多重要。

How many hosts are there?

主机有多少个？

Seven million?

七百万？

Something like that?

类似的事情？

Brian Chesky: There's seven million listings.

Brian Chesky：有七百万个列表。

Over seven million listings.

超过七百万个列表。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

And so that's the home base.

这就是大本营。

That's like the small business platform for millions of people.

这就像数百万人的小型企业平台。

And so I worked on the host sites.

所以我在托管网站上工作。

I have a special place in my heart for host features, and I feel like travelers don't really appreciate the value of that part of the product.

我对主机功能有一个特殊的位置，我觉得旅行者并没有真正欣赏这部分产品的价值。

Brian Chesky: Well, yeah, you did some amazing work there.

Brian Chesky：嗯，是的，你在那里做了一些了不起的工作。

Yeah.

是的。

The big lesson, Lenny, the other thing we learned is to create a great guest experience, you need great hosts, and to have great hosts, they need great tools.

莱尼，我们学到的另一件事是，要创造出色的宾客体验，你需要出色的房东，而要拥有出色的房东，他们需要出色的工具。

And so if you want to create a great experience for guests, it often starts with building great tools for hosts to enable them to provide a great experience for guests.

因此，如果您想为客人创造出色的体验，通常首先要为房东构建出色的工具，使他们能够为客人提供出色的体验。

And so that was one of the theories behind the listing tab is we're going to build great tools for hosts.

因此，列表选项卡背后的理论之一是我们将为主机构建出色的工具。

They're going to love it.

他们会喜欢它的。

And we also felt like if we put care in the design of our app, that hosts are going to see that and that they're going to actually put care into hosting.

我们还觉得，如果我们在应用程序的设计中投入精力，房东就会看到这一点，并且他们会真正在托管方面投入精力。

Even more than they already do.

甚至比他们已经做的还要多。

And they do put a lot of care in now.

他们现在确实投入了很多精力。

Lenny: Speaking of great products, a defining characteristic of Brian Chesky in my mind is how big you make people think.

Lenny：说到伟大的产品，我心目中 Brian Chesky 的一个决定性特征是你让人们认为有多大。

How you push people to think bigger.

如何推动人们思考更大的问题。

Memories I have of you is in meetings, we present our goal and you're always saying, "How do we 10X this?

我对你们的记忆是在会议中，我们提出我们的目标，而你们总是说，“我们如何将这个目标提高 10 倍？

What would it take to 10X this idea?" And somehow we often hit these crazy goals after you 10X'd them or sometimes just double them.

怎样才能将这个想法实现 10 倍？”不知何故，我们经常在你将这些疯狂的目标提高 10 倍或有时只是翻倍后实现它们。

What have you learned about just the power of setting really ambitious goals, but also finding the balance with not demoralizing people if they don't hit these really ambitious goals?

关于设定真正雄心勃勃的目标以及在人们没有实现这些真正雄心勃勃的目标时不使其士气低落之间找到平衡的力量，您学到了什么？

Brian Chesky: As you know, there was a saying inside of Airbnb, it was add a zero.

Brian Chesky：如你所知，Airbnb 内部有一句话，那就是加一个零。

Add a zero at the end, which is to imagine something you order, imagine it bigger.

最后加个零，就是想象你点的东西，想象它更大。

The exercise isn't necessarily to say if people say they want to hit a goal, I say, okay, I added a zero, you have to hit that goal.

这个练习不一定是说人们是否想要达到一个目标，我说，好吧，我加了一个零，你必须达到那个目标。

It's more the exercise of what would it take to be 10X bigger or do something 10 times better?

更多的是如何将规模扩大 10 倍或将某些事情做得更好 10 倍？

Because what you find is when you push people, they will sometimes think about the problem differently.

因为你会发现，当你推动人们时，他们有时会以不同的方式思考问题。

And one of the best ways to get unstuck from a problem is to imagine a 10X scale or 10X better or 10X faster where you can't do the current process to do it.

摆脱问题的最佳方法之一就是想象一个 10 倍的规模、10 倍的改善或 10 倍的速度，而您无法执行当前的流程。

You have to think differently about the problem.

你必须以不同的方式思考这个问题。

And to think differently about the problem means you have to deeply understand the problem.

以不同的方式思考问题意味着你必须深入理解问题。

And to deeply understand the problem, you have to break it into its components.

要深入理解问题，您必须将其分解为各个组成部分。

Brian Chesky: And we might call this first principle thinking.

Brian Chesky：我们可以称之为第一原理思维。

What are the foundational elements that comprise this problem and how can we reconstruct them?

构成这个问题的基本要素是什么？我们如何重建它们？

So the first thing is I think by adding a zero, at least conceptually for teams, that helps them understand a problem.

所以第一件事是我认为通过添加一个零，至少在概念上对于团队来说，可以帮助他们理解问题。

The second is, I think one of the most important things for a founder or leader to do is set the pace of the team.

第二，我认为创始人或领导者要做的最重要的事情之一就是设定团队的节奏。

I think the pace of the team is one of the most important things you can do.

我认为团队的节奏是你能做的最重要的事情之一。

And that pace is sometimes governed not by how hard people work, but how decisive they are.

有时，这种速度并不取决于人们工作的努力程度，而是取决于他们的果断程度。

If you want to improve the speed of a company, then make faster decisions.

如果你想提高公司的速度，那就更快地做出决策。

And fast decisions come from a bias of action.

快速的决策来自于行动的偏见。

If we're in a meeting, we don't just say, "Okay, let's circle back on this next week." No, we'll have it done by next week.

如果我们在开会，我们不会只是说：“好吧，我们下周再讨论这个问题。”不，我们会在下周之前完成。

Let's stay in this meeting until it's done.

让我们继续参加这次会议，直到会议结束。

What are you doing?

你在干什么？

Have a bias for action.

对行动有偏见。

Who's responsible?

谁负责？

Okay, what are you doing?

好吧，你在做什么？

Okay, let's check in an hour.

好吧，我们一个小时后检查一下。

I'll call you in the morning.

我早上会给你打电话。

Okay, how do we do this?

好吧，我们该怎么做呢？

And so you end up getting three months of work done over that period of time.

所以你最终会在这段时间内完成三个月的工作。

Brian Chesky: But the last thing I'll say about adding a zero, Lenny, is I remember there was a story about a great basketball coach named John Wooden.

布莱恩·切斯基（Brian Chesky）：但关于加零，我要说的最后一件事是，莱尼，我记得有一个关于一位名叫约翰·伍登（John Wooden）的伟大篮球教练的故事。

He was one of the winningest basketball coaches, I think, in college basketball history, perhaps the greatest.

我认为，他是大学篮球历史上获胜最多的篮球教练之一，也许是最伟大的。

And someone asked him once ...

有一次有人问他...

I'm going to paraphrase what he said.

我将转述他所说的话。

What is your secret to success?

你成功的秘诀是什么？

And he said, "That I just asked my players to do their very best." And I remember thinking to myself, that doesn't sound like the secret to success, asking people to do their best.

他说：“我只是要求我的球员尽力而为。”我记得我自己心里想，要求人们尽力而为，这听起来并不是成功的秘诀。

But there was an implicit thing that he didn't say, which is that he saw potential in people that they never saw in themselves.

但有一件隐含的事情他没有说出来，那就是他看到了人们从未在自己身上看到的潜力。

And so the role of a leader is to see potential in people that they may not even see themselves.

因此，领导者的作用就是看到人们甚至连他们自己都看不到的潜力。

Brian Chesky: When I tell somebody it's not good enough, either I'm saying, you're not good enough, or I believe that you have more potential than you're showing me.

布莱恩·切斯基：当我告诉某人这还不够好时，我要么是在说，你还不够好，要么是我相信你比你向我展示的潜力更大。

So in other words, you can push a team and they could feel demoralized because they can feel like what they're doing is not good enough if they have a fixed mindset or you create a growth mindset organization where the more I'm involved, the more I say you can do better, it's because the more I believe in you, and I know that you have more in you.

换句话说，你可以推动一个团队，他们可能会感到士气低落，因为如果他们有固定心态，或者你创建了一个成长型思维组织，我参与得越多，我就越说你可以做得更好，因为他们会觉得自己所做的事情不够好，我参与得越多，我就越会说你可以做得更好，这是因为我越相信你，我知道你有更多的内在。

And the way to know if a team could do better is if they're life dependent on it, could they do it?

知道一个团队是否可以做得更好的方法是看他们是否依赖它，他们能做到吗？

And Andy Grove used to say that there's competency and motivation.

安迪·格罗夫曾经说过，有能力和动力。

And motivation is if they're life ...

动机是如果他们是生命......

Not literally dependent on it, but if it was a crisis or if it was a defining moment in their lives.

并不是真的依赖它，但如果这是一场危机或者这是他们生活中的决定性时刻。

I think the job of a leader is not to make it life and death, that's too far, but to be able to motivate a team to see potential in them that they don't see in themselves, and to really push them.

我认为领导者的工作不是让它生死攸关，那太远了，而是能够激励团队看到他们自己看不到的潜力，并真正推动他们。

To set a tempo, to break something down to first principle thinking.

设定节奏，将某些事情分解为首要原则思维。

And if you do that, then I think that's going to be the opposite of these slow moving, soul crushing bureaucracies.

如果你这样做，那么我认为这将与这些行动缓慢、令人心碎的官僚机构截然相反。

Lenny: I've definitely been through that where you set a crazy goal and then we ended up hitting it.

莱尼：我确实经历过这样的情况：你设定了一个疯狂的目标，然后我们最终实现了它。

And so I've seen that myself.

我自己也看到了这一点。

With some of the things you've talked about of say, do it now, we're not going to wait another week to circle back and this stuff you talked about of taking on the CPO role, not having a CPO, and also all these launches, it sounds like a lot of work and a lot of hours.

你谈到的一些事情，现在就做，我们不会再等一周才回来，你谈到的担任 CPO 角色、没有 CPO 以及所有这些发布，这听起来像是大量的工作和大量的时间。

What have you learned about avoiding burnout and creating balance and also just helping people on your team avoid burnout and creating balance?

关于避免倦怠和创造平衡以及帮助团队成员避免倦怠和创造平衡，您学到了什么？

Brian Chesky: First of all, I want to give you a very surprising learning.

Brian Chesky：首先，我想给你一个非常令人惊讶的学习。

I weirdly now, the more I get involved ...

我现在很奇怪，我参与得越多......

This is so weird.

这太奇怪了。

The more in the details I am, the more time I have on my hands.

我关注的细节越多，我手上的时间就越多。

That's a paradox.

这是一个悖论。

And I want to explain that paradox.

我想解释一下这个悖论。

It doesn't make any sense.

这没有任何意义。

But when I explain this process to people that I would be in the details, we'd have one shared consciousness, I would review everything, we would do endless edits of even the press release, it would seem like I would be working 80, 100 hours a week and that people will be disempowered and that no one would want to do anything.

但当我向人们解释这个过程时，我会详细说明，我们会有一个共同的意识，我会审查所有内容，我们甚至会对新闻稿进行无休止的编辑，看起来我每周工作 80、100 小时，人们会被剥夺权力，没有人愿意做任何事情。

And I got just the opposite.

而我得到的恰恰相反。

Here's what I found.

这是我发现的。

If you decide to be in the details and get very, very hands-on like I did, it might be a lot more work for about one to two years.

如果你决定像我一样关注细节并亲自动手，那么大约一到两年的时间可能会需要更多的工作。

Brian Chesky: And so for one to two years it was way more work than the old way.

Brian Chesky：所以在一到两年内，工作量比以前要多得多。

But once we turned the corner, suddenly everyone started rowing the same direction.

但当我们转过拐角时，突然每个人都开始向同一个方向划船。

Suddenly I didn't have to be in meetings anymore and people would do what I wanted them to do if I wasn't there.

突然之间，我不再需要参加会议，如果我不在场，人们也会做我想让他们做的事情。

And by the way, that's what the culture is.

顺便说一句，这就是文化。

They say the culture is what happens when you're not in the room and the brand is what people say when you're not in the room.

他们说，文化是当你不在房间时发生的事情，而品牌是当你不在房间时人们所说的。

And so that became our culture.

这就成了我们的文化。

Suddenly there was fewer conflicts in the company.

突然间，公司里的矛盾少了很多。

There was less turnover.

营业额减少了。

People were rowing in the same direction.

人们朝着同一个方向划船。

That I wasn't reacting.

原来我没反应过来

Before, I would get 10 surprises and nine were bad.

以前，我会得到 10 个惊喜，其中 9 个是糟糕的。

Now I get 10 surprises and nine are good.

现在我得到了 10 个惊喜，其中 9 个是好的。

And you don't really have to do anything about good surprises, only bad surprises.

你实际上不需要对好的惊喜做任何事情，只需要对坏的惊喜做任何事情。

That I used to have to intervene in projects that I wasn't involved in because they were going off in the wrong direction and by the time I got involved, I was associated with dysfunction, but I only got involved because it was dysfunctional.

我曾经不得不干预那些我没有参与的项目，因为它们朝着错误的方向发展，当我参与其中时，我已经与功能障碍联系在一起，但我只是因为它功能障碍而参与其中。

It wasn't actually going well.

实际上进展并不顺利。

And then it was three times as work to fix something because we weren't involved in the very early stages.

然后，修复某些问题的工作量是原来的三倍，因为我们没有参与早期阶段。

So I was much more involved.

所以我更加投入了。

I had a lot less time on my hands initially, and now I actually weirdly have a lot more time on my hands.

最初我手上的时间少了很多，现在我手上的时间实际上奇怪地多了很多。

Brian Chesky: But to answer your question on burnout, I think is another very good question.

布莱恩·切斯基：但回答你关于倦怠的问题，我认为这是另一个非常好的问题。

I do not think I am the poster child, at least historically, of work-life balance.

我不认为我是工作与生活平衡的典范，至少在历史上是这样。

I'm 42 years old.

我今年42岁了。

I live with a golden retriever.

我和一只金毛猎犬住在一起。

I don't yet have a family.

我还没有家庭。

And if you asked me when I was in college how I thought my life would be right now, I probably would've thought the inverse.

如果你在我上大学时问我现在的生活会怎样，我的想法可能恰恰相反。

That I'd have a family and I'd one day run a company.

我会有一个家庭，有一天我会经营一家公司。

And I did things in a slightly different order.

我做事情的顺序略有不同。

But one of the things I've learned is that there's this temptation to work more and more and more hours.

但我学到的一件事是，工作时间越来越长是存在诱惑的。

And sometimes you need ...

有时你需要...

Let's say an artist, you have to step away from the painting.

假设一个艺术家，你必须远离绘画。

And you actually start getting more derivatives, slower and slower.

事实上，你开始获得更多的衍生品，速度越来越慢。

Brian Chesky: And so I basically have tried to make it a practice to step away from the work.

布莱恩·切斯基：所以我基本上尝试让远离工作成为一种习惯。

And so here's some of the things I do.

这是我所做的一些事情。

Every other weekend I don't really work at all.

每隔一个周末我根本不工作。

And then every other weekend I work pretty intensely.

然后每隔一个周末我都会非常紧张地工作。

If I had a family, it would probably be more like a day of the weekend I'd work more intensely.

如果我有一个家庭，这可能更像是周末我会更加紧张地工作的一天。

You wouldn't be a parent every other weekend, but I'm not so it's a little different.

你不会每隔一个周末就当父母，但我不是，所以情况有点不同。

I usually make sure I exercise and I never miss a workout.

我通常会确保锻炼身体，并且从不错过任何一次锻炼。

So I usually wake up, I'll do 20 minutes of morning cardio on a Peloton.

所以我通常醒来后，会在 Peloton 上做 20 分钟的早晨有氧运动。

I'll go to the gym three or four times a week and do weights.

我每周会去健身房三到四次，做举重运动。

I'll basically do cardio just about every day.

我基本上每天都会做有氧运动。

I make sure that I eat really healthy.

我确保我吃得非常健康。

I have a classic bodybuilding diet of five to six meals a day.

我有一个经典的健美饮食习惯，每天吃五到六顿饭。

So I try to make sure I do that.

所以我努力确保我这样做了。

I try to make sure I get a fairly good amount of sleep.

我努力确保自己有充足的睡眠。

Brian Chesky: The other two things I try to do is have really healthy relationships.

布莱恩·切斯基：我尝试做的另外两件事是拥有真正健康的人际关系。

I think one of the most important things that will govern how happy you are in your life is your relationships.

我认为决定你生活幸福程度的最重要的事情之一就是你的人际关系。

I think the three things are your health, your relationships, and your work.

我认为三件事是你的健康、你的人际关系和你的工作。

Those are probably the three most important things.

这可能是最重要的三件事。

So as long as you're healthy and you have meaningful work, the last is relationships.

所以，只要你身体健康，工作有意义，最后就是人际关系。

And there was this Harvard study.

哈佛大学有一项研究。

It's the longest study on human happiness.

这是对人类幸福感最长的研究。

I think it's 85 years old.

我认为已经85岁了。

And the question was, what's the secret of happiness?

问题是，幸福的秘诀是什么？

And of course they weren't expecting to have a single answer, but they got one.

当然，他们并不期望得到一个答案，但他们得到了一个答案。

And the answer was, the secret to happiness, if there is one, is healthy relationships.

答案是，幸福的秘诀（如果有的话）就是健康的人际关系。

And I had found, Lenny, that over the time of being an entrepreneur, I had gotten totally isolated.

莱尼，我发现，在成为一名企业家的过程中，我完全被孤立了。

It was almost as if I didn't have friends.

就好像我没有朋友一样。

I had friends, but I didn't keep in touch with them.

我有朋友，但我没有和他们保持联系。

And every time I reached out to a friend, I had to get them up to speed on my life.

每次我联系朋友时，我都必须让他们了解我的生活。

And if you have to get people up to speed, you're not really keeping as much in touch with them.

如果你必须让人们了解最新情况，那么你就没有真正与他们保持尽可能多的联系。

And so I started making a practice a couple of years ago to make sure that I have a group of friends that I'm constantly in touch with, including old friends.

因此，几年前我开始进行练习，以确保我有一群经常保持联系的朋友，包括老朋友。

Brian Chesky: So I have a group of high school friends, we have a group chat and we take one to two trips together a year.

布莱恩·切斯基：我有一群高中朋友，我们进行群聊，每年一起去一到两次旅行。

I have a group of college friends, we have a group chat.

我有一群大学朋友，我们有一个群聊。

We take probably a couple trips together a year.

我们一年可能会一起旅行几次。

By the way, doing Airbnbs are great.

顺便说一句，做 Airbnb 很棒。

We all get in a house together and it's like your opportunity to have a shared experience.

我们大家一起住在一所房子里，这就像你有机会获得共同的经历。

And if you don't travel with your old friends, you'll have only old stories to talk about and then you say the same old stories over and over.

如果你不和老朋友一起旅行，你们就只有老故事可讲，然后你会一遍又一遍地说同样的老故事。

So you want to be able to have new shared experiences.

所以你希望能够拥有新的共享体验。

When I stay here in New York City ...

当我住在纽约市时......

I'm in New York right now.

我现在在纽约。

That's why you don't see my typical background.

这就是为什么你看不到我的典型背景。

I stay in my sister's apartment.

我住在我姐姐的公寓里。

So she's got a two bedroom and I stay in her house because I like to see her.

她有一间两居室，我住在她的房子里，因为我喜欢见到她。

And I just make sure I spend a lot of time with friends.

我只是确保我花很多时间和朋友在一起。

And of course we travel.

当然，我们还会去旅行。

Traveling is what I do with a lot of my friends.

旅行是我和很多朋友一起做的事情。

And then I like to draw and read.

然后我喜欢画画和读书。

So I try to make sure it's health, work and relationships.

所以我努力确保健康、工作和人际关系。

And I try to make sure I have a balance of each.

我努力确保两者之间保持平衡。

And you might call family relationships.

你可以称之为家庭关系。

I'm single, but that would be another version of it.

我是单身，但这将是它的另一个版本。

Lenny: I heard you say along the same lines on a different podcast about how when you're really busy, you didn't have time to reach out to anyone and they never thought they could reach out to you because they thought you were so busy.

莱尼：我听到你在另一个播客上说了同样的话，当你真的很忙时，你没有时间联系任何人，他们从来没有想过可以联系你，因为他们认为你很忙。

Brian Chesky: In the old world, I was reacting, so everyone thought I was busy.

Brian Chesky：在旧世界，我正在做出反应，所以每个人都认为我很忙。

So the people I really cared about, a lot of them said, "Well, he's busy so he'll reach out to me when he's not busy." But here's a problem.

所以我真正关心的人很多人都说：“嗯，他很忙，所以他不忙的时候会联系我。”但这里有一个问题。

I was so busy that all I was doing all day was responding to people.

我太忙了，整天所做的就是回复别人。

And so if people I cared about didn't reach out to me, I was dealing with incoming.

因此，如果我关心的人没有联系我，我就会处理来电。

I could barely deal with the incoming.

我几乎无法处理传入的信息。

Now that was a mistake.

现在那是一个错误。

But I was reacting.

但我才反应过来。

By the way, here's another lesson for founders.

顺便说一句，这是给创始人的另一个教训。

A lot of founders spend their time based on reacting.

许多创始人把时间花在反应上。

So people will email them and they'll wake up and they'll respond to emails, and suddenly their email sets the agenda.

所以人们会给他们发电子邮件，他们会醒来并回复电子邮件，突然他们的电子邮件设定了议程。

People ask for meetings, and suddenly the meetings they take are based on the people who email them.

人们要求召开会议，突然间，他们参加的会议就取决于向他们发送电子邮件的人。

Versus here's my strategy and then over the next year, what are the relationships I need to have and the meetings I need to take to be able to execute this strategy?

与这是我的战略相比，然后在接下来的一年中，我需要建立哪些关系以及需要召开哪些会议才能执行该战略？

Brian Chesky: If my life were to end in a year or in 10 years or some time horizon that's shorter than I expected, who are the people I would've wanted to make sure I spent time with?

布莱恩·切斯基（Brian Chesky）：如果我的生命在一年内、十年内或某个比我预期短的时间范围内结束，我希望确保与谁共度时光？

And if you imagine that your life is finite, because it is, and you imagine you're not going to be here as long as you thought you would be, because it's possible, it would completely change how you prioritize your time.

如果你想象你的生命是有限的，因为它确实是有限的，并且你想象你不会像你想象的那样在这儿呆那么久，因为这是可能的，这将彻底改变你如何优先考虑你的时间。

I think suddenly you would start to say no to things and you'd say yes to other things.

我想你会突然开始对一些事情说“不”，而对其他事情说“是”。

I now try to say no to what I call fake work, which is things that feel like work, but they don't actually move the ball down the field.

我现在尝试对所谓的假工作说不，这些假工作感觉像是工作，但实际上并没有推动工作的进行。

And I really try to say yes to the work that's very meaningful and people that are very meaningful to me.

我真的试着对那些对我来说非常有意义的工作和人说“是”。

So yeah, it's a really, really good insight.

是的，这是一个非常非常好的见解。

And by the way, that metaphor, Lenny, but it's true of companies too.

顺便说一句，莱尼，这个比喻也适用于公司。

You can sometimes be ...

有时你可能会...

You don't want to only spend your time reacting or spending your time with the employees reaching out to you.

您不想只花时间做出反应或花时间与与您联系的员工。

You do want to do some of it, but then you're rewarding only one type of behavior and the introverts or the people that aren't reaching out to you aren't going to get any attention.

你确实想做其中的一些事情，但是你只会奖励一种行为，而内向的人或那些不与你接触的人不会得到任何关注。

Lenny: Just one more question and then I have a quick fun question at the end.

莱尼：还有一个问题，最后我有一个快速有趣的问题。

I know you have to run.

我知道你必须跑。

If I were to ask people who are the most inspiring leaders in tech and in business in general, I think you'd be right near the top of that list.

如果我要问谁是科技界和商业界最鼓舞人心的领导者，我认为您会名列前茅。

You've been through a lot of ups and downs, you've learned a lot of lessons along the way.

一路走来，你经历了很多风风雨雨，也学到了很多教训。

What have you found has been most helpful to helping you continue to grow and keep up with the business, the way the business has grown, the scale and just to take on this leadership role?

您发现什么对帮助您继续发展并跟上业务发展、业务发展方式、规模以及承担这一领导角色最有帮助？

Is it coaching?

是辅导吗？

Is it reading?

是读书吗？

Is it other mentors?

是其他导师吗？

Something along those lines.

沿着这些思路。

Brian Chesky: You ask really good questions.

Brian Chesky：你问的问题非常好。

And by the way, thank you.

顺便说一句，谢谢你。

I'll share a few thoughts.

我将分享一些想法。

I was with Sam Altman probably a few weeks ago at dinner, and I told him, "I still feel like I have a lot to prove.

大概几周前，我和萨姆·奥尔特曼一起吃晚饭，我告诉他，“我仍然觉得我还有很多东西需要证明。

I haven't made it yet." And he was really surprised.

我还没做到。”他真的很惊讶。

He's like, "What are you talking about?" And I didn't even realize that he thought that was an absurd notion, but I said, no, I haven't made it yet.

他就像是，“你在说什么？”我什至没有意识到他认为这是一个荒谬的想法，但我说，不，我还没做到。

It's not to say I'm not grateful or I feel like I need to get somewhere so that therefore I'll feel worthy.

这并不是说我不感恩，或者我觉得我需要到达某个地方，这样我才会感到有价值。

But I have this beginner's mindset that the bigger I get, the more a beginner I tend to feel.

但我有一种初学者的心态，我越大，我就越感觉自己是一个初学者。

It's a weird feeling.

这是一种奇怪的感觉。

I think when I first took off, I think I thought I knew everything or I knew more than I certainly did.

我想当我第一次起飞时，我想我以为我知道一切，或者我知道的比我实际知道的还要多。

But then you get past some peak or you go into this trough where you realize, oh my God, the moment you get to some frontier of knowledge, you start to become a beginner again and everything is new.

但当你过了某个高峰或者进入低谷时，你会意识到，天哪，当你到达某个知识前沿的那一刻，你又开始成为一个初学者，一切都是新的。

Brian Chesky: And so I think the first thing I try to do is to be a beginner.

Brian Chesky：所以我认为我要做的第一件事就是成为一个初学者。

Pablo Picasso had a saying.

巴勃罗·毕加索有一句话。

He said, "It took me four years to learn to paint like Raphael, but a lifetime to learn to paint like a child." And so I've tried to always see the world through the eyes of a child.

他说：“我花了四年的时间才学会像拉斐尔一样画画，但却用一生的时间才学会像孩子一样画画。”所以我一直试图通过孩子的眼睛看世界。

And I think one of the key characteristics of a child is curiosity.

我认为孩子的关键特征之一就是好奇心。

To see everything with fresh eyes.

用新鲜的眼光看待一切。

To not have too many judgments.

不要有太多的判断。

When I was trying to figure how to run the company, I studied the history of divisional organizations and I studied Steve Jobs, but also studied what Bill Gates did.

当我试图弄清楚如何经营公司时，我研究了部门组织的历史，研究了史蒂夫·乔布斯，也研究了比尔·盖茨的所作所为。

And I studied Alfred Sloan at General Motors that MIT Sloan is named after.

我在通用汽车公司学习了阿尔弗雷德·斯隆（Alfred Sloan），麻省理工斯隆学院就是以该公司命名的。

And actually the founding of divisional companies, which I believe was DuPont.

事实上，部门公司的成立，我认为是杜邦公司。

They were making powder for gunpowder.

他们正在制造火药粉末。

The war ends.

战争结束。

What do we do with powder?

我们用粉末做什么？

Turns out powder can be used for paint, but the way you sell gunpowder and paint are different sales channels so they created what we now know as the divisional structure.

原来火药可以用来做油漆，但是火药和油漆的销售方式是不同的销售渠道，所以他们创造了我们现在所说的部门结构。

Brian Chesky: So I try to understand the sources of things.

Brian Chesky：所以我尝试了解事物的来源。

I try to learn.

我努力学习。

I try to be shameless about reaching out to help.

我尽量厚颜无耻地伸出援手。

I think that a lot of people are afraid to reach out to help because they think other people are busy.

我认为很多人害怕伸出援手，因为他们认为其他人很忙。

The biggest honor most people get in their lives, or one of the biggest honor is when other people ask them for help.

大多数人一生中获得的最大荣誉，或者说最大的荣誉之一就是当其他人向他们寻求帮助时。

Because we all just want to feel useful.

因为我们都只是想感觉自己有用。

So don't feel ashamed to reach out to something for help.

因此，不要因为寻求帮助而感到羞耻。

It gives a lot of them great honor.

这给他们中的许多人带来了巨大的荣誉。

And I think you don't need to reach out to people 10 years ahead of you.

我认为你不需要接触比你早 10 年的人。

They can just be people a year ahead of you.

他们可能只是比你早一年。

In fact, an entrepreneur getting started, I might be less youthful than somebody two years ahead of them that knows the latest distribution channels that I have forgotten.

事实上，作为一名刚刚起步的企业家，我可能比那些比他们早两年、知道我已经忘记的最新分销渠道的人年轻。

So I think that that is the key.

所以我认为这是关键。

It's learning, it's growing, it's curiosity.

这是学习，是成长，是好奇心。

It's constantly having that hunger and that fire to always want to be better.

总是有那种渴望和火焰，总是想要变得更好。

To feel like I haven't made it yet.

感觉好像我还没有做到。

Because the reason I say I haven't made it yet is because if I've made it, then I'm done.

因为我之所以说我还没有成功，是因为如果我成功了，那么我就完成了。

And I want to feel like an artist.

我想感觉自己像一名艺术家。

Bob Dylan used to say, "An artist has to be in a constant place of becoming and so long as they don't become something, then they're going to be okay."

鲍勃·迪伦曾经说过：“艺术家必须不断地成长，只要他们不成为某种东西，那么他们就会没事。”

Brian Chesky: And so you have to always be evolving, learning, growing, and the canvas keeps getting bigger.

Brian Chesky：所以你必须不断发展、学习、成长，画布不断变大。

The mountaintop keeps getting higher.

山顶越来越高。

And I feel like I'm just getting started and I hope that ...

我觉得我才刚刚开始，我希望......

I don't know how long you intend to do the podcast, but I intend to do this for a long time and if you do or whatever, we'll definitely want to have talks.

我不知道你打算做多久的播客，但我打算做很长时间，如果你这样做或其他什么，我们肯定会想进行会谈。

And I hope years from now, Lenny, I hope 70% of what I said I still believe, but if 100% of what I say, I still believe then I probably haven't learned very much.

我希望几年后，莱尼，我希望我所说的 70% 我仍然相信，但如果我仍然相信我所说的 100%，那么我可能还没有学到很多东西。

And so if 90% I say I don't believe anymore than I'm delusional and wrong.

因此，如果 90% 的人说我不再相信，那么我就是妄想，是错误的。

But I sincerely hope that I retract it or change or modify a few things I said today in a few years, because that will mean that I've gained more wisdom.

但我真诚地希望几年后我能收回它或者改变或修改我今天所说的一些话，因为这将意味着我获得了更多的智慧。

And so how do I do that?

那么我该怎么做呢？

By being curious.

通过好奇。

Lenny: That is beautiful.

莱尼：那真是太美了。

It reminds me, you mentioned Sam Altman.

这让我想起，你提到了山姆·奥尔特曼。

There's a tweet that he put out a couple of weeks ago that I'll read real quick.

他几周前发布了一条推文，我很快就会读完。

"Many people have reached out to offer help and advice over the past year.

“在过去的一年里，许多人伸出援手提供帮助和建议。

No one has gotten close to Brian Chesky in terms of delivering.

在交付方面，没有人能与布莱恩·切斯基相提并论。

He will take a midnight call at any time, put in hours of work on any topic, answer difficult questions correctly with clarity, make any intro, et cetera." How does that feel to have seen that?

他会随时接听午夜电话，在任何主题上投入数小时的工作，清晰正确地回答难题，进行任何介绍，等等。”看到这个感觉如何？

Brian Chesky: I had no idea he was going to do that.

布莱恩·切斯基：我不知道他会这么做。

And I just want to say I think Sam is obviously a once in a generation founder.

我只想说，我认为 Sam 显然是一位千载难逢的创始人。

I think what he's done with OpenAI is extraordinary.

我认为他在 OpenAI 上所做的事情是非凡的。

And when he launched ChatGPT I had known him for a real long period of time, and I knew a sense of the journey he was about to go on.

当他推出 ChatGPT 时，我已经认识他很长一段时间了，我知道他即将踏上的旅程。

And I think that he was very deep into the technical part and then research part of OpenAI.

我认为他对 OpenAI 的技术部分和研究部分非常深入。

But it turned out there was a product, a design, a marketing, a leadership, a sales.

但事实证明，有产品、设计、营销、领导力、销售。

So there were all these other functional responsibilities.

所以还有所有这些其他职能职责。

And so being able to just play a small part in giving some advice when necessary ...

因此，在必要时能够提供一些建议，发挥一小部分作用......

And he would take what he wanted and discard others.

他会拿走他想要的东西，而抛弃其他的。

But I think, Lenny, maybe this goes to another thing, which is all I tried to do with Sam was what other people did for me.

但我想，莱尼，也许这会导致另一件事，那就是我对萨姆所做的一切都是其他人为我做的。

Brian Chesky: Before Y Combinator, there was a person named Michael Seibel.

Brian Chesky：在 Y Combinator 之前，有一个人叫 Michael Seibel。

He's in Y Combinator.

他是 Y Combinator 的成员。

And he used to meet with me and give me advice.

他常常会见我并给我建议。

And he wasn't an official advisor, he wasn't an investor.

他不是官方顾问，也不是投资者。

I didn't hire him or anything like that.

我没有雇用他或类似的人。

He wasn't on my board.

他不在我的董事会中。

And I asked him, I said, "How do I repay you?" And he said, "Well, I want you to pass this on to other founders." And I would meet with a lot of people in the valley, and there was just this incredible culture of generosity that we all were going to win if the ecosystem was healthy.

我问他，我说：“我该怎么报答你呢？”他说：“好吧，我希望你把这个传递给其他创始人。”我会在山谷里遇到很多人，如果生态系统健康的话，我们所有人都将赢得这种令人难以置信的慷慨文化。

And the ecosystem would be healthy if we all helped one another.

如果我们大家互相帮助，生态系统就会健康。

And you pay it forward.

然后你再付钱。

I think that it's just one continuation of the valley of people helping one another, learning from one another.

我认为这只是人们互相帮助、互相学习的山谷的延续。

And I also feel like I learned by teaching as well.

我也觉得我也是通过教学来学习的。

Lenny: Final question.

莱尼：最后一个问题。

When someone joins Airbnb, there's a very longstanding tradition of sharing a fun fact about yourself.

当有人加入爱彼迎时，分享关于自己的有趣事实是一个由来已久的传统。

It might be the longest standing tradition.

这可能是历史最悠久的传统。

It's always tough on the spot, but I'm curious, Brian, if there's a fun fact that you want to share about yourself that maybe people don't already know.

现场总是很艰难，但我很好奇，布莱恩，你是否想分享一个人们可能还不知道的关于你自己的有趣事实。

Brian Chesky: Yeah.

布莱恩·切斯基：是的。

A fun fact about me is that I actually spent most of my life as an artist.

关于我的一个有趣的事实是，我实际上一生的大部分时间都是作为一名艺术家度过的。

When I was five years old I remember my parents take me to the Norman Rockwell museum and I would sit in front of his beautiful illustrations.

当我五岁的时候，我记得我的父母带我去诺曼·洛克威尔博物馆，我会坐在他美丽的插图前。

They're really paintings I should say.

我应该说它们确实是画作。

I shouldn't even call them illustrations.

我什至不应该称它们为插图。

And I would try to reproduce them.

我会尝试重现它们。

And I got obsessive with art.

我对艺术着迷了。

I remember when I was maybe in elementary school, I asked Santa for poorly designed Christmas toys so I could redesign them.

我记得当我上小学的时候，我向圣诞老人要了设计糟糕的圣诞玩具，这样我就可以重新设计它们。

When I got older, one of my friends, I went to his house ...

当我长大后，我的一个朋友，我去了他家......

I'm going to say I was eight or nine years old.

我想说我当时八九岁。

And his dad was basically redoing his deck, but his dad decided to design it himself.

他的父亲基本上是在重做他的套牌，但他的父亲决定自己设计。

I think maybe he was an architect.

我想也许他是一名建筑师。

So he had this giant dining room table, and he had this vellum paper and he had a T-square and a drawing triangle and a protractor.

所以他有这张巨大的餐桌，有这张牛皮纸，还有一个丁字尺、一个绘图三角形和一个量角器。

They were really cool looking tools, and they were basically floor plans and architectural drawings.

它们是看起来非常酷的工具，它们基本上是平面图和建筑图纸。

Brian Chesky: So I got into architectural and landscape design when I was like eight or nine, and that led to my interest in architecture.

Brian Chesky：所以当我八九岁的时候，我就进入了建筑和景观设计领域，这引发了我对建筑的兴趣。

I went to RPI when I was in freshman year of high school to do a pre-college program.

我在高中一年级的时候去了 RPI 参加大学预科课程。

Then I got into more and more drawing and figure drawing.

然后我越来越喜欢绘画和人物画。

Then I got into a film and animation.

然后我开始接触电影和动画。

Then I got involved in environmental design.

然后我就开始涉足环境设计。

I realized that if you buy stock in a company, you could get these cool glossy annual reports.

我意识到，如果你购买一家公司的股票，你就可以获得这些很酷、有光泽的年度报告。

This is when the internet was nascent and people still mailed the annual reports.

当时互联网刚刚兴起，人们仍然邮寄年度报告。

As so I got my dad to buy a few shares at some Disney stock.

因此，我让我爸爸购买了一些迪士尼股票。

And I got these renderings and he had a report of theme parks.

我得到了这些效果图，他得到了一份主题公园的报告。

And I started drawing and designing theme parks in communities.

我开始在社区中绘制和设计主题公园。

Brian Chesky: And I was at this private school actually for hockey.

布莱恩·切斯基：我在这所私立学校学习曲棍球。

Because I had this life where I was playing ice hockey and I thought I was going to play college hockey.

因为我的生活是打冰球，我以为我会打大学曲棍球。

My dad was really into it.

我爸爸真的很喜欢它。

I was really into it.

我真的很喜欢它。

And I had an art teacher in high school at this military school.

我在这所军校读高中时有一位美术老师。

That's another fun fact.

这是另一个有趣的事实。

I basically went to a military high school.

我基本上上的是军事高中。

Brian Chesky: And at this military sports academy oriented high school, I had the same art teacher from eighth grade to 11th grade.

布莱恩·切斯基：在这所以军事体育学院为导向的高中，我从八年级到十一年级都有同一位美术老师。

And that's not a good thing, by the way.

顺便说一句，这不是一件好事。

I don't say it as a good thing because I was not diversifying my skills.

我不认为这是一件好事，因为我没有使我的技能多样化。

And so I leave this high school because I wanted to pursue different interests than hockey.

所以我离开了这所高中，因为我想追求与曲棍球不同的兴趣。

And I transferred to my public high school late my junior year.

大三末我转学到公立高中。

And imagine transferring to a new public high school late junior year.

想象一下，高三末转到一所新的公立高中。

And I meet my art teacher who changes my life.

我遇到了改变我生活的艺术老师。

Her name is Ms. Williams, and she sees my artwork.

她的名字叫威廉姆斯女士，她看到了我的艺术作品。

And by the way, my mom was nervous about me becoming an artist.

顺便说一句，我妈妈对我成为一名艺术家感到紧张。

She used to tell me, "I chose a job for the love, and I got paid no money.

她曾经告诉我：“我因为热爱而选择了一份工作，但我没有得到任何报酬。

So you should choose a job that pays you a lot of money." And I said to my mom, "One day, I'm going to be an artist." She said, "Oh my God, you chose the only job where you're going to paid less than a social worker." So I think my parents, they were supportive of me going to art, but they were very nervous.

所以你应该选择一份薪水高的工作。”我对妈妈说：“有一天，我要成为一名艺术家。”她说：“天哪，你选择了唯一一份薪水低于社会工作者的工作。”所以我认为我的父母支持我去艺术，但他们非常紧张。

And then Ms. Williams told my mom, she said, "Don't worry.

然后威廉姆斯女士告诉我妈妈，她说：“别担心。

He's going to be a famous artist one day." I wasn't going to become a famous artist.

有一天他会成为一位著名的艺术家。”我并没有打算成为一名著名的艺术家。

But what that did is I think it gave everyone the confidence for me to pursue art.

但我认为这给了每个人我追求艺术的信心。

Brian Chesky: I ended up being a winner, there were multiple winners, of a national art competition, and I had my artwork displayed in the Rotunda Gallery.

布莱恩·切斯基（Brian Chesky）：我最终成为了全国艺术竞赛的获胜者，有多个获胜者，我的作品在圆形大厅画廊展出。

That then led to me getting a scholarship at the Rhode Island School of Design where I ended up going to RISD.

这让我获得了罗德岛设计学院的奖学金，最终我进入了罗德岛设计学院。

It's like MIT for design or whatever.

就像麻省理工学院的设计之类的。

It's a prestigious art and design school.

这是一所著名的艺术与设计学院。

But I got to RISD and I realized I was born 100 years too late for what I wanted to do, which is draw and paint.

但当我到了罗德岛设计学院后，我意识到我的出生晚了 100 年，无法实现我想做的事，那就是画画。

And I felt like at that point, photography and now AI generated art, but certainly even back then, photography was replacing a lot of the skills that I had.

我觉得在那时，摄影和现在的人工智能创造了艺术，但当然即使在那时，摄影也正在取代我拥有的很多技能。

And that's when I was in my freshman year of college and I learned about a field called industrial design.

就在我大学一年级的时候，我了解到了一个叫做工业设计的领域。

They said industrial design is the design of everything from a toothbrush to a spaceship and everything in between.

他们说工业设计是从牙刷到宇宙飞船以及介于两者之间的一切事物的设计。

Brian Chesky: And really, Lenny, maybe just to round out the story, because that was a fun fact, but I'm just ...

布莱恩·切斯基：真的，莱尼，也许只是为了完善这个故事，因为这是一个有趣的事实，但我只是......

And this is the pre founding story that I never tell.

这是我从未讲述过的建国前故事。

I don't think I could have ever done what I did if I wasn't an industrial designer.

我认为，如果我不是一名工业设计师，我永远不可能完成我所做的事情。

I think industrial designer is different than a graphic designer.

我认为工业设计师与平面设计师不同。

Because an industrial designer, you have to work with engineering in your training.

作为一名工业设计师，您必须在培训中与工程学一起工作。

I worked with mechanical engineers, electric engineers.

我与机械工程师、电气工程师一起工作。

You have to understand manufacturing.

你必须了解制造。

Industrial design's very accountable to sales.

工业设计对销售非常负责。

If you design a building, an architect, and you design an office building and the office building doesn't get leased, the architect's usually not on the hook for it.

如果你设计一座建筑，一位建筑师，你设计一座办公楼，而办公楼没有被出租，那么建筑师通常不会为此承担责任。

But if you're an industrial designer and you design a product, it doesn't sell, you're on the hook for it.

但如果你是一名工业设计师，你设计了一款产品，但它卖不出去，你就得承担责任。

At least people assume you didn't design a good product.

至少人们认为你没有设计出好的产品。

So you had to understand marketing and strategy.

所以你必须了解营销和策略。

Brian Chesky: And so that became this gateway.

Brian Chesky：所以这成为了这个网关。

But I didn't really want to make items and objects my whole life.

但我并不是真的想用一生来制作物品和物品。

At RISD, the biggest value I got in addition to learning industrial design was I met my co-founder, Joe Gebbia.

在罗德岛设计学院，除了学习工业设计之外，我获得的最大价值是结识了我的联合创始人 Joe Gebbia。

And the day of graduation Joe looks to me, he says, "Brian, I think we're going to start a company together one day." And I had no idea what he was referring to.

毕业那天，乔看着我，他说：“布莱恩，我想有一天我们会一起创办一家公司。”我不知道他指的是什么。

So I moved to Los Angeles where I work as an industrial designer for two years when one day I got a package in the mail that changed my life.

因此，我搬到了洛杉矶，在那里担任了两年的工业设计师，有一天我收到了一个包裹，这改变了我的生活。

I opened this package and it's a seat cushion with a handle on it.

我打开这个包裹，里面是一个座垫，上面有一个把手。

And it's a letter from Joe, my friend from RISD.

这是我在罗德岛设计学院的朋友乔的一封信。

He said, "I started a company and everyone in San Francisco ...

他说：“我创办了一家公司，旧金山的每个人......

I live in San Francisco and all these people are starting companies.

我住在旧金山，所有这些人都在创办公司。

You should come here." And this is in 2007.

你应该来这里。”这是2007年的事了。

YouTube had just come out.

YouTube 刚刚推出。

I had seen all these Steve Jobs keynotes finally on YouTube.

我终于在 YouTube 上看到了所有这些史蒂夫·乔布斯的主题演讲。

I didn't know who he was.

我不知道他是谁。

I'd never heard his voice before YouTube.

在 YouTube 之前我从未听过他的声音。

And Apple had this renaissance and Google was on fire and Facebook was taking off.

苹果迎来了复兴，谷歌如火如荼，Facebook 正在腾飞。

And it felt like the gears of the world that were turning were in San Francisco.

感觉就像世界的齿轮在旧金山转动。

Brian Chesky: And so one day I go into work and I quit my job.

布莱恩·切斯基：有一天，我开始工作，然后辞掉了工作。

My boss is dumbfounded.

我的老板傻眼了。

And I pack everything in the backseat of old Honda Civic.

我把所有东西都装在旧本田思域的后座上。

I get to San Francisco and Joe tells me the rent is $1,150.

我到达旧金山，乔告诉我房租是 1,150 美元。

I don't have enough money to pay our rent.

我没有足够的钱付房租。

This design conference is coming to San Francisco.

这次设计会议将来到旧金山。

All the hotels are sold out.

所有酒店都卖完了。

We said, what if we turned our house into a bed and breakfast for the design conference?

我们说，如果我们把我们的房子变成设计会议的住宿加早餐旅馆怎么样？

I didn't have any beds, but Joe had beds and we called it Air Bed and Breakfast.

我没有床，但乔有床，我们称之为“空中住宿加早餐”。

Brian Chesky: So my fun fact was I was an artist and designer before Airbnb.

Brian Chesky：有趣的是，在 Airbnb 之前我是一名艺术家和设计师。

Really an artist, at least how I thought about it.

真的是一位艺术家，至少我是这么认为的。

And I think that's maybe one of the things that makes Airbnb different.

我认为这可能是 Airbnb 与众不同的原因之一。

Because there's not a lot of designers or artists running Fortune 500 or S&P 500 companies.

因为经营财富 500 强或标准普尔 500 强公司的设计师或艺术家并不多。

And I think that intuition, imagination, design, curiosity, I think we need more of that.

我认为直觉、想象力、设计、好奇心，我认为我们需要更多。

By the way, I think the people listening, I think everyone on this, listen, you have these qualities.

顺便说一句，我认为听的人，我认为每个人，听着，你都有这些品质。

But I think that a lot of companies, it's like we're a body and the companies are cut off at the head and they're disembodied from their heart, and they're often really biased towards one side of their head.

但我认为很多公司，就像我们是一个身体，而公司的头部被切断了，他们的内心脱离了实体，而且他们往往真的偏向于头部的一侧。

And I think that some of the greatest scientists played musical instruments like Einstein.

我认为一些最伟大的科学家像爱因斯坦一样演奏乐器。

I think that being a whole, well-rounded way of thinking about the world is good.

我认为以一种完整、全面的方式思考世界是件好事。

So anyways, that's my final thought.

无论如何，这是我最后的想法。

Lenny: I love that fun fact because it almost explains everything you've been talking about, which is rethinking the way companies can run, doing things super differently.

莱尼：我喜欢这个有趣的事实，因为它几乎解释了你所谈论的一切，即重新思考公司的运营方式，以超级不同的方式做事。

So I really appreciate you sharing that.

所以我真的很感谢你分享这一点。

I also love that it transitioned into the creation story of Airbnb, which happens a lot at Airbnb.

我也喜欢它转变为 Airbnb 的创作故事，这种事在 Airbnb 经常发生。

People hear that story over and over because it's so interesting and so important.

人们一遍又一遍地听到这个故事，因为它是如此有趣且如此重要。

Brian, I know you have to run.

布莱恩，我知道你必须逃跑。

Thank you so much for being here and being generous with your time.

非常感谢您来到这里并慷慨地抽出时间。

Brian Chesky: Thank you, Lenny, and congratulations on everything you're doing.

Brian Chesky：谢谢你，莱尼，祝贺你所做的一切。

Thanks Brian.

谢谢布莱恩。

Bye everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

大家再见：非常感谢您的聆听。

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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。