Making Meta | Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth (CTO)
Lenny: You were basically the 10th engineer at Facebook.
Lenny：你基本上是 Facebook 的第十位工程师。
I imagine there was a lot of pain and suffering that people don't often hear about.
我想有很多人们不常听说的痛苦和磨难。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: I didn't sleep for more than four hours at a time.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：我每次睡觉的时间不超过四个小时。
I'd wake up every four hours and check the report and see if anyone was attacking the site.
我每四个小时醒来一次，检查报告，看看是否有人在攻击该网站。
They don't tell you about that stuff in the movies.
他们不会告诉你电影里的那些东西。
Lenny: You worked 120 hours per week., you had no hobbies.
莱尼：你每周工作120个小时，你没有任何爱好。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: I don't want to take away from the romanticism of it.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：我不想剥夺它的浪漫主义色彩。
It's just that most often, we hear those romantic stories from the successes.
只是大多数时候，我们听到的是那些成功人士的浪漫故事。
It's a healthy thing for people to want to throw themselves into something and take that risk, but it is not glamorous at the time.
人们愿意全身心投入某件事并承担风险，这是一件健康的事情，但在当时并不光彩。
Lenny: The newsfeed.
莱尼：新闻源。
That was one of your early projects at Facebook.
这是您在 Facebook 的早期项目之一。
People did not want it.
人们不想要它。
They were wrong, clearly.
显然，他们错了。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Now, newsfeed was an easier case than people suspect.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：现在，新闻源比人们想象的更容易。
Everyone was outraged at the same time as they immediately doubled their usage of the product.
大家同时感到愤怒，立即将产品的使用量加倍。
Lenny: In terms of the economic utility, the Venn diagram of Boz, of newsfeed and ads created $1 trillion of value.
莱尼：就经济效用而言，新闻源和广告的博兹维恩图创造了 1 万亿美元的价值。
Lenny: Today, my guest is Andrew Bosworth, or Boz, as most people know him.
莱尼：今天，我的客人是安德鲁·博斯沃思，或者大多数人都认识的博兹。
Boz is the chief technology officer of Meta.
Boz 是 Meta 的首席技术官。
He joined what was then called Facebook in early 2006 as one of the first engineers, and during his 18-year tenure at Meta, he created some of the most impactful and important products in internet history, including the Facebook newsfeed, which was the first ever algorithmically ranked content feed of any social network, and is basically what people think of as Facebook today.
他于 2006 年初加入当时的 Facebook，成为第一批工程师之一，在 Meta 的 18 年任期内，他创建了一些互联网历史上最具影响力和最重要的产品，其中包括 Facebook 新闻源，这是所有社交网络中第一个按算法排名的内容源，基本上就是今天人们所认为的 Facebook。
Lenny: He also built the original Facebook mobile ads platform, which he then ran for another four years.
Lenny：他还构建了最初的 Facebook 移动广告平台，然后又运营了四年。
He also helped build and scale the Facebook messaging system, the profile, the timeline, Facebook groups, and even the internal engineering boot camp.
他还帮助构建和扩展了 Facebook 消息系统、个人资料、时间线、Facebook 群组，甚至内部工程训练营。
Most recently, he served as VP of ads and business platform, where he led engineering product, research, analytics, and design.
最近，他担任广告和业务平台副总裁，领导工程产品、研究、分析和设计。
And in 2017, he created the company's AR/VR organization, now called Reality Labs.
2017 年，他创建了公司的 AR/VR 组织，现称为 Reality Labs。
Lenny: These days, Andrew leads Meta's efforts in AR, VR and mixed reality, along with consumer hardware across Quest, Ray-Ban, Meta smart glasses, and more.
Lenny：如今，Andrew 领导 Meta 在 AR、VR 和混合现实领域的工作，以及 Quest、Ray-Ban、Meta 智能眼镜等消费类硬件的工作。
Lenny: In our wide-ranging conversation, we touch on so many important lessons and stories, what it was really like in the early days of Facebook, why you should be asking your manager for help more often, why communication is the job.
莱尼：在我们广泛的谈话中，我们谈到了许多重要的教训和故事，Facebook 早期的真实情况，为什么你应该更频繁地向你的经理寻求帮助，为什么沟通是工作。
Lessons from Meta's turnaround over the past couple of years, Boz's thoughts on the Apple Vision Pro, a bunch of leadership and career advice, what it was like to build the very first newsfeed, and lessons from that experience, and stories of failure and stories of success, and so much more.
过去几年 Meta 转型的经验教训、Boz 对 Apple Vision Pro 的想法、一系列领导力和职业建议、构建第一个新闻源的感受、从这次经历中吸取的教训、失败的故事和成功的故事等等。
Lenny: If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
Lenny：如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中订阅并关注它。
It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes, and it helps the podcast tremendously.
这是避免错过未来剧集的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。
Lenny: With that, I bring you Andrew Bosworth, a.k.a.
莱尼：接下来，我为您带来安德鲁·博斯沃思（Andrew Bosworth），又名安德鲁·博斯沃思。
Boz, after a short word from our sponsors.
博兹，在我们的赞助商简短发言之后。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Vanta.
莱尼：这一集是万塔给你带来的。
When it comes to ensuring your company has top-notch security practices, things get complicated fast.
当谈到确保您的公司拥有一流的安全实践时，事情很快就会变得复杂。
Now you can assess risk, secure the trust of your customers, and automate compliance for SOC 2, ISO-27001, HIPAA and more, with a single platform, Vanta.
现在，您可以使用单一平台 Vanta 评估风险、确保客户信任并自动实现 SOC 2、ISO-27001、HIPAA 等合规性。
Vanta's market-leading trust management platform helps you continuously monitor compliance, alongside reporting and tracking risks.
Vanta 市场领先的信任管理平台可帮助您持续监控合规性，同时报告和跟踪风险。
Plus, you can save hours by completing security questionnaires with Vanta AI.
此外，您还可以通过 Vanta AI 完成安全调查问卷来节省时间。
Join thousands of global companies that use Vanta to automate evidence collection, unify risk management, and streamline security reviews.
加入数千家使用 Vanta 自动化证据收集、统一风险管理和简化安全审查的全球公司行列。
Get $1,000 off Vanta when you go to vanta.com/lenny.
访问vanta.com/lenny，可享受 Vanta 立减 1,000 美元的优惠。
That's Vanta.com/lenny.
这是 Vanta.com/lenny。
This episode is brought to you by Eppo.
本集由 Eppo 为您带来。
Eppo is a next-generation, A-B testing and feature management platform, built by alums of Airbnb and Snowflake for modern growth teams.
Eppo 是下一代 A-B 测试和功能管理平台，由 Airbnb 和 Snowflake 的校友为现代增长团队构建。
Companies like Twitch, Miro, ClickUp and DraftKings rely on Eppo to power their experiments.
Twitch、Miro、ClickUp 和 DraftKings 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。
Experimentation is increasingly essential for driving growth and for understanding the performance of new features, and Eppo helps you increase experimentation velocity while unlocking rigorous deep analysis in a way that no other commercial tool does.
实验对于推动增长和了解新功能的性能越来越重要，Eppo 可以帮助您提高实验速度，同时以其他商业工具无法做到的方式解锁严格的深度分析。
When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved most was our experimentation platform where I could set up experiments easily, troubleshoot issues, and analyze performance, all on my own.
当我在 Airbnb 时，我最喜欢的事情之一就是我们的实验平台，我可以在其中轻松设置实验、解决问题并分析性能，所有这一切都由我自己完成。
Eppo does all that and more with advanced statistical methods that can help you shave weeks off experiment time, an accessible UI for diving deeper into performance, and out-of-the-box reporting that helps you avoid annoying prolonged analytic cycles.
Eppo 通过先进的统计方法（可以帮助您缩短数周的实验时间）、可用于更深入地了解性能的易于访问的 UI 以及开箱即用的报告（可以帮助您避免烦人的长时间分析周期）来完成所有这些工作。
Eppo also makes it easy for you to share experiment insights with your team, sparking new ideas for the A-B testing flywheel.
Eppo 还使您可以轻松地与您的团队分享实验见解，激发 A-B 测试飞轮的新想法。
Eppo powers experimentation across every use case, including product, growth, machine learning, monetization, and email marketing.
Eppo 为每个用例提供实验支持，包括产品、增长、机器学习、货币化和电子邮件营销。
Check out Eppo at geteppo.com/lenny, and 10x your experiment velocity.
请访问 geteppo.com/lenny 查看 Eppo，将实验速度提高 10 倍。
That's geteppo.com/lenny.
那是 geteppo.com/lenny。
Lenny: Boz, thank you so much for being here.
莱尼：博兹，非常感谢你来到这里。
Welcome to the podcast.
欢迎来到播客。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Thanks for having me.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：谢谢你邀请我。
I've been a long-time fan of your program and all the things that you've been putting out, so I'm glad to finally get a chance to join.
我一直是你们的计划和你们推出的所有东西的长期粉丝，所以我很高兴终于有机会加入。
Lenny: Same.
莱尼：一样。
I'm really excited to have you here.
我很高兴你能来到这里。
I have at least a billion questions I want to ask you.
我至少有十亿个问题想问你。
But I want to start with a few fun facts that I've found about you, and what if I go through them and then just pick one that stands out, and then tell the story behind it?
但我想从我发现的一些关于你的有趣事实开始，如果我仔细阅读这些事实，然后选择一个突出的事实，然后讲述它背后的故事，会怎样呢？
How does that sound?
听起来怎么样？
Lenny: Okay, I'm going to keep going.
莱尼：好的，我会继续。
Okay.
好的。
Lenny: That might be the one.
莱尼：可能就是这个。
You were a national Taekwondo champion in college.
你在大学时是全国跆拳道冠军。
You were Mark Zuckerberg's TA in college in a class on AI, which isn't actually how you landed at Facebook, from my understanding.
你是马克·扎克伯格 (Mark Zuckerberg) 大学人工智能课程的助教，据我了解，这实际上并不是你进入 Facebook 的原因。
Harvard was recruiting you to play football for them.
哈佛正在招募你为他们踢足球。
You were very active in the 4-H Club, and you raised animals and showed them at county fairs when you were growing up.
你在 4-H 俱乐部非常活跃，在你成长的过程中，你饲养过动物并在县集市上展示它们。
You once shared a stage with David Copperfield.
你曾经与大卫·科波菲尔同台演出。
Lenny: MC Hammer once told you that your outfit was stylish.
莱尼：MC Hammer 曾经告诉过你，你的服装很时尚。
And president George W.
还有总统乔治·W.
Bush complimented you on your shoes and the shine of your head.
布什称赞你的鞋子和你的头闪闪发光。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Yeah, these are all true.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：是的，这些都是真的。
I want to say, wow.
我想说，哇。
First of all, I got to make sure that people understand, I was a national collegiate champion, in as a green belt, which that's like being the JV champion.
首先，我必须确保人们理解，我是全国大学冠军，作为绿带，这就像成为合资冠军一样。
Just so everyone's clear on what that is.
这样每个人都清楚那是什么。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Heavyweight sparring.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：重量级拳击手。
I'll tell...
我会告诉...
The prom story is a funny one.
舞会的故事很有趣。
It's related to the 4-H story.
这和4-H的故事有关。
I was a big-time 4-H'er, National 4-H Hall of Fame, did all this stuff there.
我是一名伟大的四人制运动员，国家四人制名人堂成员，在那里做了所有这些事情。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: As a comeup to that, 4-H is a wonderful program, youth program, it's coed program, and I was all over the state, all over the country, doing leadership events and doing these conferences, and doing a lot of public speaking.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：顺便说一句，4-H 是一个很棒的项目，青年项目，男女同校项目，我在全州、全国各地举办领导力活动和会议，并做了很多公开演讲。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And almost every 4-H event has a dance.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：几乎每个 4-H 活动都有舞蹈。
People don't know that.
人们不知道这一点。
At the end of a conference, at the end of the, literally camp, you'd go camping for a week, at the end there's a dance.
在会议结束时，在真正的露营结束时，你会去露营一周，最后有一场舞会。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And so, as a consequence, the most important thing, if wanted to go to a lot of proms, I was a good dancer.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：因此，最重要的是，如果我想参加很多舞会，我是一名优秀的舞者。
And it turns out, the high-level bit, at least in the 1990s, for girls selecting who they might want to go to prom with was, will he and can he dance?
事实证明，至少在 20 世纪 90 年代，女孩们在选择与谁一起参加舞会时最关心的问题是，他会跳舞吗？他会跳舞吗？
And the answer with me was yes.
我的答案是肯定的。
And combine that with the fact that I knew a bunch of girls who went to different schools, that's the recipe for success right there, if that's the goal that somebody has.
再加上我认识一群就读于不同学校的女孩这一事实，这就是成功的秘诀，如果这是某人的目标的话。
Two my junior year and 12 my senior year.
两个是我大三的，十二个是我大四的。
I once went to three in one weekend, a Friday, a Saturday, and a Sunday night.
我曾经在一个周末去了三个地方，一个周五，一个周六，一个周日晚上。
Lenny: Another fun fact about you is you were basically the 10th engineer at Facebook, initially, way before it was a clear success story.
Lenny：关于你的另一个有趣的事实是，你基本上是 Facebook 的第十位工程师，最初是在 Facebook 成为一个明显的成功故事之前。
I imagine there was a lot of pain and suffering and struggle that people don't often hear about those early days.
我想在早期人们不常听到的很多痛苦、磨难和挣扎。
They see a movie like The Social Network.
他们看《社交网络》这样的电影。
It looks like, "Oh, that was so much fun.
看起来就像是，“哦，那真是太有趣了。
I've got to start a company.
我必须创办一家公司。
It's going to become a trillion-dollar success story." I'm curious just what those early days were like.
这将成为价值数万亿美元的成功故事。”我很好奇早期的日子是什么样的。
Are there memories that stand out to you?
有没有让你印象深刻的回忆？
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Yeah, there's a bit of a joke in the 10th thing, which is me and five other guys all joined at the same time, and there was nine engineers before us.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：是的，第十件事有点笑话，我和其他五个人同时加入，在我们之前有九个工程师。
We joined the same day, so we're all the 10th engineer.
我们是同一天加入的，所以我们都是第十位工程师。
So, somewhere between 10 and 16, depending on how you want to do the numeration on that.
因此，介于 10 到 16 之间，具体取决于您想要如何进行计数。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: I've written about this in my blog, and I tell this story a lot, which is it was fun, and there was tremendous camaraderie and memories that were formed, but they were formed in a kind of forge of really intense times.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：我在我的博客中写过这个，我讲了很多这个故事，这很有趣，并且形成了巨大的友情和记忆，但它们是在一种非常紧张的时代中形成的。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: At that time, almost all of us lived within one mile of the office.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：当时，我们几乎所有人都住在距离办公室一英里以内的地方。
We ate most of our meals together because we were working, not to say we weren't also friends, but because we were working, it's like, oh cool, you just roll into a meal and roll back into work.
我们大部分饭菜都是一起吃的，因为我们在工作，并不是说我们不是朋友，而是因为我们在工作，这就好像，哦，酷，你只需滚进一顿饭，然后滚回工作岗位。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And there's little things that you don't appreciate, which is like there was nobody to help you.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：有些事情你不欣赏，就像没有人帮助你一样。
There was no expert.
没有专家。
And so, it wasn't like, "Hey, I'm struggling with this one tricky problem.
所以，这并不是说，“嘿，我正在努力解决这个棘手的问题。
Who should I talk to?" It's like, nobody.
我应该和谁谈谈？”就好像，没有人。
You should talk to yourself and figure this out.
你应该和自己谈谈并弄清楚这一点。
Or it's like, "Oh, man.
或者就像是，“哦，伙计。
My servers are out of capacity." It's like, "Cool.
我的服务器容量不足。”就像是，“酷。
You should go to Fry's Electronics, you should buy a bunch of components, you should build a new server, and then you should run it.
你应该去 Fry's Electronics，你应该购买一堆组件，你应该构建一个新服务器，然后你应该运行它。
Maybe drive into the colo, rack it, and then get back and run it."
或许可以把车开进保护区，把它挂起来，然后再回来运行它。”
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: People really undervalue the fact that when you go to work, even a moderate mid-size corporation today, especially with the tremendous growth of startups supporting startups, things like payroll and finance and IT and HR, these things are professionally handled in many cases.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：人们真的低估了这样一个事实：当你上班时，即使是今天的中型企业，尤其是随着支持初创公司的初创公司的巨大增长，工资、财务、IT 和人力资源等事情在很多情况下都会得到专业处理。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: That was just not the case in the early 2000s.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：2000 年代初的情况并非如此。
It was just you, and your personal car, and whatever you wanted to do with your time.
只有你和你的私人汽车，以及你想用时间做的任何事情。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: So, I don't want to take away from the romanticism of it, it's just that it's most often we hear those romantic stories from the successes.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：所以，我不想抹杀它的浪漫主义，只是我们最常听到的是成功者的浪漫故事。
We so rarely hear somebody who went through really sacrificing a lot of my 20s from any kind of social or outgoing, fun environment.
我们很少听到有人在任何社交或外向、有趣的环境中真正牺牲了我20多岁的时间。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: It paid off for me, so no one feels bad for me, nor should they.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：这对我来说是有回报的，所以没有人为我感到难过，他们也不应该。
But there are other people who do the exact same thing, maybe they worked harder, maybe they were smarter, maybe they did better, and it didn't play out for them.
但还有其他人做同样的事情，也许他们工作更努力，也许他们更聪明，也许他们做得更好，但这对他们来说并没有发挥作用。
And it's a big sacrifice.
这是一个很大的牺牲。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And so, I love the enthusiasm for startups, I love startup culture.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：所以，我喜欢对创业公司的热情，我喜欢创业文化。
I think it's a healthy thing for people to want to throw themselves into something and take that risk.
我认为人们想要全身心投入某件事并承担风险是一件健康的事情。
But it is not glamorous at the time.
但在当时并不光鲜亮丽。
In retrospect, it's like, "Oh, it can be..." We have a little halo around it.
回想起来，就像是，“哦，这可能是……”我们周围有一个小光环。
But at the time, it doesn't feel glamorous.
但当时感觉并不光鲜亮丽。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
In this post you mentioned, you said that you worked 120 hours per week.
在您提到的这篇文章中，您说您每周工作 120 小时。
Lenny: You had no hobbies, and you gained a lot of weight.
莱尼：你没有什么爱好，而且体重增加了很多。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Yeah.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：是的。
We drank a lot to make up for it, so I gained a lot of...
我们喝了很多酒来弥补，所以我收获了很多……
And you weren't eating healthy.
而且你饮食不健康。
It was crazy.
太疯狂了。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: I think I've told this before.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：我想我以前已经说过了。
There was a time where one of the first things I built was an anti-spam, kind of anti-scraping defense mechanism.
曾经有一段时间，我首先构建的东西之一是反垃圾邮件，一种反抓取防御机制。
But we didn't have any ops support.
但我们没有任何运营支持。
There was no 24/7 online support.
没有 24/7 在线支持。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: So, I built this tool.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：所以，我构建了这个工具。
I had to wake up every four hours.
我必须每四个小时醒来一次。
For about two years, I didn't sleep for more than four hours at a time.
大约两年来，我每次睡觉的时间不超过四个小时。
I had to wake up every four hours and check the report, and to see if anyone was attacking the site.
我必须每四个小时醒来一次并检查报告，看看是否有人在攻击该网站。
And if they were, I was up, and I had to go battle back.
如果他们是，我就起来了，我必须回去战斗。
And if they weren't, cool, I'd go back to sleep.
如果他们没有，那好，我就回去睡觉了。
But that's the thing, they don't tell you about that stuff in the movies.
但事情就是这样，他们不会告诉你电影中的那些东西。
Lenny: That's almost worse than having a kid, a newborn.
莱尼：这几乎比生孩子、新生儿还要糟糕。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And nobody asked me to do it.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：没有人要求我这么做。
Nobody even asked me to do the anti-spam, anti-scraping stuff.
甚至没有人要求我做反垃圾邮件、反抓取的工作。
I just thought it was a problem, and I went and did that, and that was the solution I come with.
我只是认为这是一个问题，然后我就这么做了，这就是我提出的解决方案。
If I was a better engineer, maybe I'd have solved a better problem.
如果我是一名更好的工程师，也许我会解决更好的问题。
Lenny: So, maybe just to close out that thread, when you talk to founders, what advice do you give them along these lines?
莱尼：那么，也许只是为了结束这个话题，当你与创始人交谈时，你会给他们什么建议？
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: I want to be cautious about this, because what I tell founders...
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：我想对此保持谨慎，因为我告诉创始人……
The first thing I tell founders is that I've never been a founder, and I want to recognize the difference.
我告诉创始人的第一件事是，我从来都不是创始人，我想认识到其中的差异。
I joined January 9th, 2006.
我是2006年1月9日加入的。
That's almost two years after Mark started the company.
那是马克创办公司近两年后的事了。
I wasn't involved with fundraising, I didn't have to do any of that side of the things, and I didn't even have to deal with the board or the business side of things.
我没有参与筹款，我不需要做任何这方面的事情，我什至不需要与董事会或业务方面打交道。
I really was lucky, in a way, to have joined when I did.
在某种程度上，我真的很幸运能够加入。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: But the first thing I tell founders is like, "You should take my advice with a grain of salt.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：但我告诉创始人的第一件事是，“你应该半信半疑地接受我的建议。
I have not actually been in your shoes."
我实际上并没有站在你的立场上。”
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: If I can compliment you, really, one of the things I like about your program is, there's a whole system of professionals in our industry.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：如果我可以称赞你的话，真的，我喜欢你的项目的一件事是，我们行业有一整套的专业人士系统。
And when I grew up in technology in the valley, you always heard about the ACM, right?
当我在硅谷的科技行业长大时，你总是听说过 ACM，对吧？
The Association of Computing Machinery.
计算机器协会。
You heard of these legendary professional organizations that supported people in our fields.
您听说过这些传奇的专业组织为我们领域的人们提供支持。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And by the nature of the rapid pace of change in the technology, and the nature of the engagement of those institutions, even academics, even academia broadly, kind of are out of touch.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：由于技术快速变化的本质，以及这些机构参与的本质，甚至学术界，甚至广泛的学术界，都有点脱节。
The tools that you got from those places weren't useful in our field.
您从那些地方获得的工具在我们的领域没有用处。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: So, I do think the mentorship that we give each other has been a critical and sustaining resource.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：所以，我确实认为我们互相给予的指导是一种关键且持续的资源。
There is, today, now, resources like your podcasts and your newsletter that are actually really designed to help people who are professionals in our industry in a way that is almost kind of missing for 15, 20 years, and I love to see that.
今天，现在，像你们的播客和时事通讯这样的资源实际上是为了帮助我们行业的专业人士而设计的，而这种方式几乎是 15、20 年来所缺失的，我很高兴看到这一点。
Because if you're an up-and-coming , literally you used to have to know somebody and ask them a question.
因为如果你是一个崭露头角的人，实际上你过去必须认识某人并问他们问题。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And so, a lot of times what I'm helping founders with, I can help them with the strategy, I can help them think through the technology choices, I can help through business, I can think through the management, the organization structure.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：所以，很多时候我帮助创始人的事情是，我可以帮助他们制定战略，我可以帮助他们思考技术选择，我可以帮助他们完成业务，我可以帮助他们思考管理和组织结构。
But I also try to be very clear, there's a bunch of stuff that I just was never exposed to.
但我也试图非常清楚地表明，有很多我从未接触过的东西。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: So, even as we just talk about how tough it was for the average engineer joining Facebook in 2006, man, it was even tougher for Mark Zuckerberg in 2004, probably.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：所以，即使我们只是谈论 2006 年加入 Facebook 的普通工程师是多么艰难，但对于 2004 年的马克·扎克伯格来说可能更艰难。
And that's a story that's been told, I'm sure, but still.
我确信，这个故事已经被讲述过，但仍然如此。
So, I think these are both...
所以，我认为这两者都是...
It's almost all scale and variant.
几乎都是规模和变体。
No matter how far you dial back, the challenges are interesting and are worth talking about.
无论你回拨多远，挑战都是有趣且值得谈论的。
Lenny: One of maybe your most popular posts is this quote that you share about the advice you often give.
莱尼：也许您最受欢迎的帖子之一就是您分享的有关您经常给出的建议的引文。
What you say is, "The advice I find I have to give more frequently than any other in my career, as a manager, a board member, an advisor and a friend, is for people to more directly leverage their leaders." Can you talk about that and what that means, and what that looks like?
你说的是，“作为一名经理、董事会成员、顾问和朋友，我发现在我的职业生涯中，我必须比其他人更频繁地提出建议，那就是让人们更直接地利用他们的领导者。”您能谈谈它的含义以及它的样子吗？
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: It's such a normal and natural healthy thing.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：这是一件很正常、自然、健康的事情。
And by the way, we do it in our personal relationships.
顺便说一句，我们在个人关系中也是这样做的。
Like I said in the post, we want to do it ourselves.
正如我在帖子中所说，我们想自己做。
We want to do it ourselves to prove to everyone that we can do it ourselves.
我们想自己做，向大家证明我们自己也能做到。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And we think in our heads, "If I ask for help, haven't I already given up that goal?
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：我们在脑子里想，“如果我寻求帮助，我不是已经放弃了这个目标吗？
Haven't I just admitted defeat on one of my top level goals, which is to demonstrate that I can do it myself?"
我不是刚刚承认自己的最高目标之一失败了，那就是证明我自己可以做到吗？”
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: But what so often we forget is, more often than not, your job is not to do it yourself.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：但我们经常忘记的是，通常情况下，你的工作不是自己做。
Your job is to get it done, is to have the thing done, done well, done right, done competently.
你的工作就是把事情做好，把事情做好，做好，做好，做好，干得好。
And a lot of times, the tools that you need to do that live with your manager, with your partner, with your advisor, with your mentor.
很多时候，你需要和你的经理、你的合作伙伴、你的顾问、你的导师一起使用完成这件事所需的工具。
That's where they live.
那就是他们住的地方。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: So, how many times as a manager have I gone through, and somebody's told them, "Here's the job." They're like, "I got it." They go off, they come back, it's done, it's wrong.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：作为一名经理，我经历过多少次，有人告诉他们，“这就是工作。”他们就像，“我明白了。”他们走了，他们回来了，完了，这是错的。
And I'm not blaming them for it being wrong.
我不会因为他们的错误而责怪他们。
They didn't check in with me.
他们没有来找我。
They misunderstood.
他们误解了。
We miscommunicated.
我们沟通不畅。
I'll take the L on that.
我会选择L。
That's no problem.
那没问题。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: But here we are, six months later, it's not done right because they misunderstood the brief.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：但六个月后，我们发现事情做得不对，因为他们误解了这份简报。
We miscommunicated with the brief.
我们对简报的沟通有误。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Or they come back, and it took a year.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：或者他们回来了，花了一年的时间。
And I'm like, "Why did this take a year instead of six months?" And they're like, "Oh, man.
我想，“为什么这需要一年而不是六个月？”他们就像，“哦，伙计。
I had all these things I had to deal with." Where, if they had emailed me, I could have bulldozed that stuff.
我有所有这些我必须处理的事情。”如果他们给我发电子邮件，我可能会把那些东西推平。
I could have cleared the path.
我本来可以清理道路的。
I could have said, " Oh, no, no, no. Don't worry about that.
我本可以说：“哦，不，不，不。别担心。
This is the thing." And then we'd have been done six months sooner, and they would've been less frustrated.
就是这样。”这样我们就可以提前六个月完成任务，他们也不会那么沮丧。
And so, light touches.
因此，轻触。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Now, I do think as a manager we also have a job to say, "Hey, that's kind of the work, so you got to kind of go figure that out." And one of my things I always tell my managers, one of the most powerful things we do is refuse to rule.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：现在，我确实认为作为一名经理，我们也有一份工作要说：“嘿，这就是工作，所以你必须弄清楚这一点。”我总是告诉我的经理的一件事是，我们所做的最有力的事情之一就是拒绝统治。
Someone will bring me a thing.
有人会给我带来一样东西。
A lot of times we feel obligated to weigh in and help.
很多时候我们觉得有义务参与并提供帮助。
I'll be like, "Nope, but look, I think you've got it.
我会说，“不，但是看，我想你已经明白了。
I think the challenges you're facing are the right challenges.
我认为你面临的挑战是正确的挑战。
I think you're approaching it in the right way.
我认为你正在以正确的方式处理它。
Just do your best there." And that's what it is.
在那里尽力而为吧。”就是这样。
And so, there is a responsibility as well for those of us who are leaders, mentors, advisors, board members to do that.
因此，我们这些领导者、导师、顾问、董事会成员也有责任这样做。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: But, by the way, we do this...
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：但是，顺便说一句，我们这样做......
Personal relationships.
个人关系。
You're with your partner, and you're trying to do something the right way, but you're not talking to them about it.
你和你的伴侣在一起，你试图以正确的方式做某事，但你没有和他们谈论这件事。
You're just taking a huge risk there, and for very little reward.
你只是在那里冒着巨大的风险，而回报却很少。
They're not going to be mad if you ask them, like, "Hey, is this how you wanted it done?
如果你问他们，比如“嘿，这是你想要的方式吗？”，他们不会生气。
I don't know."
我不知道。”
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And so, I do think it's kind of funny how much we build these castles in our mind, these little silos that keep us from engaging the structures that are built around us, that are designed to help us succeed.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：所以，我确实认为我们在脑海中建造了这些城堡，这些小筒仓让我们无法参与到我们周围建造的旨在帮助我们成功的结构中，这有点有趣。
I saw this great quote, actually just yesterday.
实际上就在昨天，我看到了这句话。
I saw Patrick Stewart, who is one of my favorite actors of all time, and whose characters I love, and he talked about people going on casting calls.
我见到了帕特里克·斯图尔特，他是我一直以来最喜欢的演员之一，我也喜欢他的角色，他谈到了人们正在进行的选角。
And this is a brutal thing for actors, right?
这对演员来说是一件残酷的事情吧？
You're going on 30, 40 things, you're getting rejected.
你要做 30 到 40 件事，你就会被拒绝。
It's tough.
它太硬。
Everyone's kind of heard about this.
每个人都听说过这件事。
And he said, "No one wants you to succeed more than the person you are auditioning for, because they want you to be awesome.
他说：“没有人比你试镜的人更希望你成功，因为他们希望你表现出色。
Because as soon as you are awesome, they're done.
因为一旦你变得很棒，他们就完了。
They want you to be amazing."
他们希望你表现出色。”
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: That's like your manager.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：这就像你的经理。
Nobody wants you to be more awesome than your manager does, because when you're amazing, your manager, his life gets easier, her life gets easier.
没有人希望你比你的经理更出色，因为当你出色时，你的经理，他的生活会变得更轻松，她的生活也会变得更轻松。
So, I just think that's the mentality we get into is like, "No, no, no. They're testing me." They're not.
所以，我只是认为我们的心态就是，“不，不，不。他们在测试我。”他们不是。
They are rooting for you.
他们支持你。
I promise you that.
我向你保证。
Lenny: I love that advice.
莱尼：我喜欢这个建议。
I imagine the reason people don't do this, as you said, is they don't want their managers to think they don't know what they're doing, or they can't solve it.
正如你所说，我想人们不这样做的原因是他们不希望他们的经理认为他们不知道自己在做什么，或者他们无法解决问题。
Do you have any advice and guidance for when it makes sense to go reach out and ask?
对于何时需要伸出援手询问，您有什么建议和指导吗？
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: One of the things I think, for people who are timid about this especially, is I think you can put a framing around it that's really easy for your manager to engage with.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：我认为，对于那些对此特别胆怯的人来说，我认为你可以围绕它设置一个框架，让你的经理很容易参与其中。
You can say, "Hey, I'm making progress on this.
你可以说：“嘿，我在这方面正在取得进展。
This is what I'm blocked on, this is the current program." And I'll even say, "Hey, if this all looks good to you, no response required.
这就是我受阻的地方，这就是当前的计划。”我什至会说，“嘿，如果这一切对你来说都不错，那就不需要回应。
If there is something here that you want me to do better, different, that you think you could help with, let me know."
如果您希望我做得更好、与众不同，或者您认为您可以提供帮助，请告诉我。”
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: I love a typed, five-, 10-sentence email, "No response required.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：我喜欢一封打字的、五句话、十句话的电子邮件，“不需要回复。
Here's where things are." Even if everything is going really well, I'm like, cool, this person understands the urgency, they understand the assignment, and they're giving me a little heartbeat, a little ping back.
事情就在这里。”即使一切进展顺利，我也会想，很酷，这个人了解紧迫性，他们了解任务，他们给了我一点心跳，一点回应。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And then also, if two weeks later, let's say the blocking issue is bad, then you say, "Hey, I am sorry, but I do actually need your help now.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：然后，如果两周后，假设阻塞问题很糟糕，那么你会说，“嘿，很抱歉，但我现在确实需要你的帮助。
I'm actually blocked on this thing." I have the context.
我实际上在这件事上受阻了。”我有上下文。
I have a mental model of you toiling away on the right thing, on the thing I asked you to do over there.
我有一个心理模型，你在正确的事情上努力工作，在我要求你在那里做的事情上。
Even then, when you're blocked, you can make my life super easy.
即使那样，当你被封锁时，你也可以让我的生活变得超级轻松。
Like, "Hey, what I'd love for you to do, if you could send an email to this person, here's a draft with this thought, that would help."
就像，“嘿，我希望你做什么，如果你可以向这个人发送一封电子邮件，这里有一份包含这个想法的草稿，那会有所帮助。”
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Or it's like, here are specific questions framed up.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：或者就像，这里有一些具体的问题。
"I think this is what you want.
“我想这就是你想要的。
Is this right?
这是对的吗？
Yes or no?
是还是不是？
If no, okay, we'll come back and we'll spend more time.
如果没有，好吧，我们会回来，我们会花更多的时间。
If yes, we're all good." So now, not only am I up to speed, I have a mental model, I'm engaged.
如果是的话，我们都很好。”所以现在，我不仅跟上了进度，我有了一个心理模型，我已经订婚了。
Also, you've made it super cheap for me to help you.
而且，你让我帮助你的费用超级便宜。
And people are always surprised.
人们总是感到惊讶。
People who work for me are always surprised when I tell them how big a part of my job is doing these little types of things.
当我告诉为我工作的人我的工作有多大一部分是在做这些小事时，他们总是感到惊讶。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: It's a little spinning plates at my scale.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：按照我的规模，这是一个旋转的小盘子。
I've got 10,000 or 15,000 employees, depending on how you want to count different things.
我有 10,000 或 15,000 名员工，具体取决于您想要如何计算不同的事物。
And so, you're just like, every now and then I got to get a whole new plate, a whole new rod, and just really put the effort into it.
所以，你就像，时不时地我必须得到一个全新的板，一个全新的杆，并且真正投入精力。
But for the most part, I'm just trying to touch everything and keep the momentum going.
但在大多数情况下，我只是试图触及一切并保持动力。
And so, if something falls, and somebody didn't tell me that "Hey, we're losing rotational velocity here.
因此，如果有东西掉落，而有人没有告诉我“嘿，我们在这里失去了旋转速度。
We're losing momentum." Oh, I'm bummed.
我们正在失去动力。”哦，我很沮丧。
I'm like, "Ah, now that plate fell.
我想，“啊，现在盘子掉了。
I got to start a whole new thing over here now."
我现在必须在这里开始一项全新的事情。”
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: So, I think people underestimate.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：所以，我认为人们低估了。
They think of my job differently than my job actually...
他们对我的工作的看法与我实际的工作不同......
My job is actually tons of little touches.
我的工作实际上是很多小细节。
Lenny: So, I think a key takeaway here is, one, index more towards asking your manager and leaders for help.
莱尼：所以，我认为这里的一个关键要点是，第一，更多地向经理和领导寻求帮助。
And I love this way of framing it of, it doesn't always need to be like, "Here's what I need from you." It's, "Here's what's happening.
我喜欢这种表达方式，它并不总是需要这样，“这就是我需要你做的。”它是，“这就是发生的事情。
Here's things that might be blocking me.
以下是可能阻碍我的事情。
Here's questions I have.
这是我的问题。
Here's things that are going on."
这就是正在发生的事情。”
Lenny: This is actually similar to something I found really powerful that I'll share real quickly, this idea of a state of...
莱尼：这实际上类似于我发现非常强大的东西，我会很快分享，这种状态的想法......
I call it the State of Lenny email.
我称之为“莱尼州电子邮件”。
And I sent this email to my manager every week.
我每周都会向我的经理发送这封电子邮件。
The State of Lenny.
莱尼州。
It's kind of like State of the Union.
这有点像国情咨文。
And it's, "Here's my current priorities, here's what's on my mind broadly, and then here's blockers that I need your help with.
它是，“这是我当前的优先事项，这是我的主要想法，然后是我需要你帮助的障碍。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: We actually used to have a format for that we called HPMs.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：我们实际上曾经有一种称为 HPM 的格式。
Highlight, people, me.
突出显示，人们，我。
And every manager at Facebook from like 2008 to like 2014 would send to their manager, or even their leadership group.
从 2008 年到 2014 年，Facebook 的每位经理都会向他们的经理甚至领导团队发送信息。
I mean, at one point when I was running what we called comm apps, I just sent it to Zuck and the whole leadership group.
我的意思是，有一次，当我运行我们所谓的通讯应用程序时，我只是将其发送给扎克和整个领导团队。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: It's like, what's the highlights include?
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：比如说，亮点包括哪些？
And it highlights flow.
它突出了流动。
What's the big ticket things you need to know?
您需要了解哪些重要事项？
Where are people?
人们在哪里？
Like is somebody in trouble?
比如有人遇到麻烦了？
Is somebody at risk?
有人处于危险之中吗？
Is somebody doing really amazing work that needs a shout-out?
有人做了真正出色的工作，需要大声疾呼吗？
And then me, how are you personally doing?
然后我，你个人怎么样？
HPMs, we called them.
我们称之为 HPM。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Actually, it's funny.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：实际上，这很有趣。
I hadn't thought about that in a long time.
我已经很久没有考虑过这个问题了。
But yeah, no, I think this kind of thing can work.
但是，是的，不，我认为这种事情可行。
And look, every manager is different, so even at the Meta level, by the way, is another success.
瞧，每个经理都是不同的，所以即使在元级别，顺便说一句，也是另一种成功。
I think what people do is they want to treat every manager the same, and that's not going to work because every manager is different.
我认为人们所做的就是希望对每一位经理一视同仁，但这是行不通的，因为每一位经理都是不同的。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: But every manager, you can ask, "How do you like to get updates?" You can ask them when you first start working with them.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：但是每一位经理，你都可以问，“你喜欢如何获取最新消息？”您可以在第一次开始与他们合作时询问他们。
Like, "Hey, what's your cadence?
就像，“嘿，你的节奏是多少？
How do you like to stay informed?" And so, for me, I do regular one-on-ones.
您希望如何保持信息灵通？”因此，对我来说，我会定期进行一对一的交流。
As the org's has gotten bigger, those have gotten more distant, so people have replaced those with more written things.
随着组织变得越来越大，这些内容也变得越来越遥远，因此人们用更多的书面内容取代了它们。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: But no manager will get pissed at you if you're like, "How do you like to get information about me?" That's a totally reasonable thing to ask.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：但是如果你问“你想如何获取有关我的信息？”，那么没有经理会生你的气。这是一个完全合理的问题。
Lenny: I love the specific idea you shared of just drafting the email to say the other team leader, "Here's what I need you to tell them.
莱尼：我喜欢你分享的具体想法，即起草电子邮件告诉其他团队领导，“这就是我需要你告诉他们的内容。
That would really unblock this thing." And that's such a cool idea.
这确实能解开这件事的障碍。”这是一个很酷的主意。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: By the way, I always put my own...
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：顺便说一句，我总是把自己的……
I don't take that copy paste it.
我不接受复制粘贴它。
I'm always looking at that and be like, "Okay, I understand." A lot of it is actually not about what you want the other person to hear, it's about the voice, the tone.
我总是看着它然后说：“好吧，我明白了。”实际上，很多内容并不是关于你想让别人听到什么，而是关于声音、语气。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: It includes a lot of history.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：它包含了很多历史。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Have you been going back and forth with them for 12 rounds, and this is going to feel to them like I'm really coming over the top?
你是否已经与他们来来回回了12轮，而这会让他们觉得我真的已经超越了巅峰？
Or is this like, "Hey, first time you're hearing about this, my bad.
或者是这样的，“嘿，你第一次听说这个，我很抱歉。
Here's what we're doing.
这就是我们正在做的事情。
Need your help."
需要你的帮助。”
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: So, a lot of that isn't even about making my life easy because I want to copy paste.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：所以，很多事情甚至不是为了让我的生活变得轻松，因为我想复制粘贴。
A lot of it is, actually, there's a rich set of information in how you tone and how you draft that note that's going to help me land it correctly and not feel like I'm just out of band, heavy coming in.
事实上，其中有很多关于你如何音调和如何起草音符的丰富信息，这些信息将帮助我正确地掌握它，而不是感觉我只是脱离了乐队，沉重地进来了。
Lenny: This touches on something that I often hear is very core to the way Meta works, which is transparency.
Lenny：这涉及到我经常听到的 Meta 工作方式的核心内容，那就是透明度。
Anyone can ask Zuck questions at the Q&A's.
任何人都可以在问答环节向扎克提问。
People are encouraged to post constantly internally of what they're thinking, what they're working on.
我们鼓励人们不断在内部发布他们的想法和工作。
All the data is shared publicly.
所有数据均公开共享。
Which often leads to leaks, which I hear you hate, and that is a pet peeve of yours.
这常常会导致泄漏，我听说你讨厌这一点，而这是你最讨厌的事情。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Just feels like a violation of the team trust.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：感觉像是违反了团队信任。
Just feels like...
只是感觉就像...
I grew up with playing sports, right?
我是伴随着体育运动长大的，对吗？
I was football, soccer, track.
我是橄榄球、足球、田径。
And you just can't imagine one of your guys calling out the play to the other team.
你无法想象你的一个人向另一支球队喊出这场比赛。
Can you imagine what you would do in that case?
你能想象在这种情况下你会做什么吗？
"You're off the team.
“你已经脱离队伍了。
I'm sorry, you can't be here." Anyways, sorry.
抱歉，你不能在这儿。”无论如何，抱歉。
Carry on.
继续。
Lenny: Yeah, and there's so many more people, it's hard to find.
莱尼：是的，而且人太多了，很难找到。
Who is this?
这是谁？
So, with this downside as an example, and I imagine there's other downsides also takes a lot of work, and it puts people on the spot a lot of times, what have you seen as benefits and why is that such a big part of Meta's way of working?
所以，以这个缺点为例，我想还有其他缺点也需要大量的工作，而且它会让人们很多次陷入困境，你认为好处是什么？为什么这是 Meta 工作方式的重要组成部分？
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Yeah.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：是的。
This kind of comes back to, I think, the principle that really good, talented people, you want to leverage them fully.
我认为，这又回到了这样一个原则：真正优秀、有才华的人，你要充分利用他们。
You really want to make sure that they are fully leveraged.
您确实想确保它们得到充分利用。
And so, anytime they have the wrong information, or they don't have the information, you've now blocked one of the economically most valuable things that your company possesses, which is this person's time, attention, talent.
因此，只要他们掌握了错误的信息，或者没有这些信息，您就封锁了您公司所拥有的经济上最有价值的东西之一，即此人的时间、注意力和才能。
Not only that, you've also made them more frustrated, and now they are more likely to leave.
不仅如此，你还让他们更加沮丧，现在他们更有可能离开。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: If the lifeblood of any company are the people inside of it who collectively commit to some kind of a goal and a mission and work together, then you want to maximize that potential.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：如果任何公司的命脉都是公司内部的员工共同致力于某种目标和使命并共同努力，那么你希望最大限度地发挥这种潜力。
And creating this really open information ecosystem is one of the ways that we do that.
创建这个真正开放的信息生态系统是我们实现这一目标的方法之一。
So often, great, phenomenal work that has happened at our company has not come from this one top-down mandate, but has come from people understanding not just what we're trying to accomplish top down, but also having way more information at their disposal to be able to act on it.
很多时候，我们公司所取得的伟大而非凡的工作并不是来自于这一自上而下的指令，而是来自于人们不仅了解我们自上而下要实现的目标，而且还掌握了更多的信息，以便能够采取行动。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: People talk about top-down or bottoms-up culture, and it's a bit of a myth, in my opinion.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：人们谈论自上而下或自下而上的文化，在我看来，这有点神话。
If you've ever met Mark Zuckerberg, it's not a bottoms-up thing.
如果你曾经见过马克·扎克伯格，就会发现这不是一个自下而上的事情。
The ideas that we're pursuing are Mark Zuckerberg's ideas, first and foremost.
我们追求的想法首先是马克·扎克伯格的想法。
That's not to say that he's not open to new ones, and of course he is, and that's a form of bottom-up, people can bring ideas to him and he internalizes them and acts them or not.
这并不是说他不接受新事物，当然他是，这是一种自下而上的形式，人们可以向他提出想法，他将它们内化并采取行动或不采取行动。
But when he brings things top-down, he's not micromanaging, he's in the details.
但当他自上而下地处理事情时，他不会进行微观管理，而是关注细节。
I'll be careful on that.
我会小心的。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: But he does create the space for you to bring back three or four versions of the thing that he's talking about, and then he shapes it from there.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：但他确实为你创造了空间，让你带回他正在谈论的事情的三到四个版本，然后他从那里塑造它。
And you can't do that if there's...
如果有的话你就不能这样做
If you don't have degrees of freedom, sure, but also if you don't have the information.
如果你没有自由度，当然，但如果你没有信息。
Otherwise, if you don't have the information available, what we're trying to accomplish, why we're trying to do it, what the infrastructure is like, what the availability is like, what the performance is going to be like, well, you just are stuck.
否则，如果您没有可用的信息，我们想要完成什么，为什么我们要这样做，基础设施是什么样的，可用性是什么样的，性能是什么样的，那么，你就会陷入困境。
You're just going to have to follow the script.
你只需要按照剧本来就可以了。
That's very boring for high-talent, high-creativity, high-engaged people.
对于高才华、高创造力、高敬业度的人来说，这非常无聊。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Now, it does come at a tremendous price.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：现在，它确实付出了巨大的代价。
You have to get really good at managing information on the incoming.
您必须非常擅长管理传入信息。
Most people at most companies consume all the information that's given to them, but the information itself is carefully managed.
大多数公司的大多数人都会使用提供给他们的所有信息，但信息本身却受到精心管理。
They're getting all the information they're intended to get.
他们正在获取他们想要获取的所有信息。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: We've turned that on its head, and it sounds great, but it's not free.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：我们彻底改变了这一点，听起来很棒，但它不是免费的。
Even somebody senior coming from outside of the company to the company, one of the things I have to coach them on is, how do you find signal amongst all the noise?
即使是从公司外部来到公司的资深人士，我必须指导他们的一件事是，如何在所有噪音中找到信号？
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: You have to have a system for managing your information.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：您必须有一个系统来管理您的信息。
You have to have a system for triaging the incoming, getting rid of a bunch of stuff that is on the wrong channel, or it doesn't matter to you, figuring out what's the...
你必须有一个系统来对传入的内容进行分类，摆脱一堆在错误渠道上的东西，或者弄清楚是什么对你来说并不重要......
groups that you want to be a part of, but you consume only when you choose to and-
你想加入的群体，但只有当你选择时你才会消费并且-
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: ...
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：……
groups that you want to be a part of but you consume only when you choose to.
您想加入的群体，但只有在您选择时才会消费。
And where are the things where you're getting push notice?
您收到推送通知的内容在哪里？
Like that's the real time thing, and that takes some time.
就像那是实时的事情，这需要一些时间。
Lenny: This point you made about bottom up versus top down is really interesting, because, when I think of Meta, I think it's a very bottom up culture.
Lenny：你关于自下而上与自上而下的观点非常有趣，因为当我想到 Meta 时，我认为这是一种非常自下而上的文化。
I hear everyone comes up with their ideas, runs experiments, is very encouraged to just try stuff, and it's really interesting to hear that.
我听说每个人都提出自己的想法，进行实验，非常鼓励尝试新东西，听到这些真的很有趣。
And it makes a lot of sense that most of the big ideas actually do come from the top.
大多数伟大的想法实际上都来自高层，这是很有意义的。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: It's of these mythology things.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：这是关于这些神话的事情。
I don't think it's the wrong...
我不认为这是错误的...
As a contract, it's more bottoms up than many other companies, because you do have these degrees of freedom within the construct.
作为一份合同，它比许多其他公司更加自下而上，因为你在构建中确实拥有这些自由度。
But make no mistake, like Mark or me or Chris Cox or Javi, they have very strong opinions about what we should be doing as a company, and your bottoms up-ness works within that framework.
但请不要误会，就像马克、我、克里斯·考克斯或哈维一样，他们对我们作为一家公司应该做什么有非常强烈的意见，而你的自下而上的精神在这个框架内发挥作用。
But it is true that you can ask Mark any question, and he's going to answer it.
但确实，你可以问马克任何问题，他都会回答。
Same with me, same with Chris, same with Javi and also that we certainly take inspiration from the discussion that we have with employees.
与我相同，与克里斯相同，与哈维相同，而且我们当然从与员工的讨论中获得灵感。
So I don't know, it's just not as black and white as people tend to paint it.
所以我不知道，它只是不像人们想象的那样黑白分明。
Lenny: I think one of the biggest lessons here is making it at least feel like you have a lot of say, even though a company is very, "Here's the big strategic ," you're very good at making people feel like they can have an impact and a say.
莱尼：我认为这里最大的教训之一就是让人们至少感觉自己有很多发言权，即使一家公司非常“这是重大战略”，但你很擅长让人们觉得他们可以产生影响和发言权。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And can I tell you, the most important thing is just giving people clear guidelines so they know where they...
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：我可以告诉你，最重要的是为人们提供明确的指导方针，以便他们知道他们......
Like, "Where do they have space and where do they have no space?" One of the things that we go in these reviews with Mark or my team with me I'm sure, and I'm like, "For this part of the UI, it is going to...
比如，“他们哪里有空间，哪里没有空间？”我确信，我们与 Mark 或我的团队一起进行这些评论的其中一件事是，“对于 UI 的这一部分，它将......
Like, I will draw it for you.
比如说，我画给你看。
It's going to be like this." And this other part.
事情就会是这样的。”还有这另一部分。
I'm like, "Cool, that's important, too.
我想，“酷，这也很重要。
I don't have a clear vision of it.
我对此没有清晰的愿景。
Why don't you do it?" So there's just really clear guardrails of like, "Okay, where are we just on assignment?
你为什么不做呢？”所以有非常清晰的护栏，比如，“好吧，我们刚刚执行任务到哪里了？
And where do we have more flexibility?"
我们在哪些方面有更大的灵活性？”
Lenny: Is there an example of that that comes to mind where you were just very in the details and drawing the screen?
莱尼：有没有一个例子让你想起你非常注重细节并绘制屏幕？
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Over the course of time, there's been quite a few examples.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：随着时间的推移，已经有很多例子了。
I think early on, when we were working on News Feed, mark was absolutely whiteboarding every single pixel that the team had to put on the front end.
我认为早期，当我们在新闻提要上工作时，马克绝对是在白板上写了团队必须放在前端的每个像素。
On the back end, he was like, "Make it rank, have some ranking." So I felt like I was lucky there.
在后端，他说，“让它排名，有一些排名。”所以我觉得我在那里很幸运。
I was just like, "Cool, I'm off to the races on some ranking stuff." And Chris Cox and all these other guys are having to really pixel-match these things.
我当时就想，“酷，我要去参加一些排名比赛了。”克里斯·考克斯和所有其他人都必须对这些东西进行真正的像素匹配。
But it's not always that way by the way.
但顺便说一句，情况并非总是如此。
So now fast-forward and we're talking about ranking, it's not like Mark is always hands-off on that.
现在快进，我们正在讨论排名，马克并不总是对此不干涉。
When we got into modernizing our ranking systems, which we've done over the last five years, Mark was heavily involved and like, " Hey, what's the mix shift and how are you weighing different things?"
当我们在过去五年里对排名系统进行现代化改造时，马克积极参与其中，他说：“嘿，混合转变是什么？你如何权衡不同的东西？”
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And so it can go both ways.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：所以它可以是双向的。
For me personally, I've gotten really involved in some relatively esoteric things.
就我个人而言，我确实参与了一些相对深奥的事情。
I was really adamant, for example, that hand tracking and mixed reality make it into the headset.
例如，我非常坚定地将手部追踪和混合现实融入到耳机中。
Let's just say that there weren't any supporters in the team.
这么说吧，球队里没有任何支持者。
Obviously we had a hand tracking team, which is phenomenal, mixed reality team, but there was a lot of people who were like...
显然我们有一个手部追踪团队，这是一个非凡的混合现实团队，但有很多人就像......
They did not feel those features were going to be critical for this to become a mainstream device.
他们认为这些功能对于这款设备成为主流设备来说并不是至关重要的。
I always believed that they were for ease of use and for...
我一直相信它们是为了易于使用并且......
So I just really forced the issue and didn't give anyone any room and held really high standards for the performance benchmarks we were going to hit on the hand tracking.
所以我只是真的强迫这个问题，没有给任何人任何空间，并对我们要在手部追踪上达到的性能基准保持非常高的标准。
And teams told me it was impossible.
团队告诉我这是不可能的。
And it wasn't.
但事实并非如此。
It did great.
效果很好。
Lenny: This touches on something that comes up a lot on this podcast.
莱尼：这涉及到这个播客中经常出现的事情。
And there's this debate between how in-the-weeds founders and execs should be, whether they delegate, empower, versus, "No, we're just going to do it this way.
创始人和高管应该如何行事，是否授权、授权，还是“不，我们就这样做”之间存在着争论。
I'm going to be very involved in every mock." And there's always this up and down that happens where it's like, "Okay, cool, we're going to let people run and do their thing," and then things start to not work as well often.
我会积极参与每场模拟比赛。”总会有这样的起起落落的情况发生，就像“好吧，酷，我们将让人们运行并做他们的事情”，然后事情开始经常变得不那么顺利。
And then, "We're going to take back control." You have just a perspective on when it makes sense to go deep, how founders execs should think about that?
然后，“我们将收回控制权。”您对何时深入有意义有一个看法，创始人高管应该如何考虑？
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Such a useless answer for founders, it depends on the weeds.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：对于创始人来说这是一个无用的答案，这取决于杂草。
There are some weeds that really matter and there's some weeds that really just don't, and I should say, that doesn't mean they don't matter at all.
有些杂草确实很重要，有些杂草确实不重要，我应该说，这并不意味着它们根本不重要。
You have to do them, but they aren't the hinge upon which success or failure will happen.
你必须这样做，但它们并不是成功或失败的关键。
Yeah, there's people I really respect, Brian Chesky's been on and said, "Look, the Airbnb is going to work only on the things that I can work on.
是的，有一些我非常尊敬的人，布莱恩·切斯基 (Brian Chesky) 曾说过：“听着，Airbnb 只会做我能做的事情。
It's that's the extent of what it's going to do." And that's a super extreme form of it.
这就是它将要做的事情的范围。”这是它的一种超级极端形式。
I have a lot of respect for him and how they're working things.
我非常尊重他以及他们的工作方式。
I think that if you have great super talented people that you can trust who can own bigger pieces, that's one option.
我认为，如果你拥有值得信赖的超级才华横溢的人，他们可以拥有更大的作品，那么这是一种选择。
If there are ways to structure it so that you can check in effectively and make sure that it's on track, that's another way to structure it.
如果有办法构建它，以便您可以有效地签入并确保它步入正轨，那么这是另一种构建它的方法。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And there probably is still work happening at Airbnb, that has to happen, finance and accounting and HR, that Brian isn't personally managing.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：Airbnb 可能仍在进行一些必须进行的工作，包括财务、会计和人力资源，而 Brian 并不亲自管理这些工作。
So there are clearly non-technical areas that we do.
因此，我们显然在非技术领域开展工作。
Or legal.
或者合法。
There are areas that we do trust that this is happening at.
我们确实相信某些领域正在发生这种情况。
And so I think a lot of founders regret delegating too much, from my conversations.
因此，从我的谈话来看，我认为很多创始人都后悔授权过多。
And I totally get that.
我完全明白这一点。
Or they delegated something critical that really turned out to be the most important thing.
或者他们委托了一些关键的事情，而这些事情实际上是最重要的。
For me, the judgment is like, "How do you, most important, determine what is what matters the most?" And so Mark, we joke inside of Meta, to this day, we call it the eye of Sauron.
对我来说，判断就像是，“最重要的是，你如何确定什么是最重要的？”所以马克，我们在 Meta 内部开玩笑，直到今天，我们称其为索伦之眼。
When Mark has determined that the thing that you're working on is the most important thing, there is no detail too small for him to notice.
当马克确定你正在做的事情是最重要的事情时，没有任何细节是他无法注意到的。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: He will be in a review, and in the same review.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：他将接受审查，而且是同一次审查。
We'll be like, "Strategically, I think we're off course.
我们会说，“从战略上讲，我认为我们偏离了方向。
And also, this one pixel is definitely wrong.
而且，这一像素绝对是错误的。
You have to fix that." That's a big range.
你必须解决这个问题。”这是一个很大的范围。
Frankly, I'll be a little bit self-congratulatory, I pride myself on being able to do the same.
坦白说，我会有点沾沾自喜，我为自己能够做到同样的事情而感到自豪。
And I think people who work with me often comment that the style of leadership that we have, and I think Chris Cox is the same, is where it's like we will go where hide a low on the things that matter a ton.
我认为与我共事的人经常评论说，我们的领导风格（我认为克里斯·考克斯也是如此）就是我们会在非常重要的事情上隐藏低调。
And there's a bunch of other things that certainly matter.
还有很多其他事情肯定很重要。
We're glad we're doing them, but either they have pretty clear roadmaps, pretty clear examples in the industry, or it's like that's a feature that you have to have but isn't going to determine success or failure.
我们很高兴我们正在这样做，但要么他们有非常清晰的路线图，行业内非常清晰的例子，要么就像这是一个你必须拥有但不会决定成功或失败的功能。
So getting it into rough shape and then iterating on it is fine.
因此，将其形成粗略的形状，然后对其进行迭代就可以了。
And so I think it really does depend on the weeds, how deep you want to get.
所以我认为这确实取决于杂草，以及你想要的深度。
Lenny: It's so funny, I use exactly that same metaphor, the eye of Sauron, when I talk about working on things that Airbnb that matter a lot to Brian.
Lenny：这太有趣了，当我谈论 Airbnb 上对 Brian 来说非常重要的事情时，我使用了完全相同的比喻，即索伦之眼。
And my advice to people is, "You don't want to be in that eye of Sauron for too long in your career, because you're just going to burn out if you're working on the most important thing all the time, but want to be close.
我对人们的建议是，“在你的职业生涯中，你不想在索伦的眼睛里停留太久，因为如果你一直在做最重要的事情，但又想接近的话，你只会精疲力尽。
You don't want to be in the Shire, but you want to be around the .
你不想待在夏尔，但你想待在……周围。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: That's right.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：没错。
They're both...
他们俩都是...
So I worked for years in ads.
所以我在广告行业工作了多年。
From 2012 to 2017, I ran ads in a business platform, this big ads group, and it was an area where certainly it was very important, but Mark had so many other things going on with the transition to mobile, he did kind of delegate it to me.
从 2012 年到 2017 年，我在一个商业平台（这个大型广告集团）中投放广告，这是一个非常重要的领域，但马克在向移动设备的过渡过程中还有很多其他事情要做，他确实将其委托给了我。
And it was awesome, and it was so cool to have that kind of trust from him.
这太棒了，得到他的这种信任真是太酷了。
And also, you're constantly terrified, because like, "Mark does not know.
而且，你总是感到害怕，因为就像，“马克不知道。
What if this is all..." My leads would be worried, because they just hadn't had a review with Mark in a while.
如果这就是全部怎么办……”我的领导会担心，因为他们已经有一段时间没有与马克进行审核了。
And it's like, yeah, you suffer in the intensity of the gaze of Sauron.
就好像，是的，你在索伦强烈的凝视下感到痛苦。
You also suffer in the shadow of its absence.
你也会在它缺席的阴影下受苦。
There's no perfect place to be.
没有完美的地方。
Lenny: That's hilarious.
莱尼：这太搞笑了。
I'm trying to think of the part of Middle Earth that is a metaphor for that.
我试图想象中土世界的一部分就是对此的隐喻。
Lenny: Okay, so you talked about the News Feed, which was one of your very earliest projects at Facebook.
Lenny：好的，你谈到了 News Feed，这是你在 Facebook 最早的项目之一。
Here's a couple fun facts I know about the News Feed.
以下是我所了解的有关动态消息的一些有趣事实。
One is that it was the very first algorithmic News Feed of its kind of any social network and maybe of any sort of product like this.
一是它是任何社交网络中第一个算法新闻源，也许是任何类似产品中的第一个算法新闻源。
And two, it was the very first AI code that was written at Facebook to rank the actual News Feed.
第二，这是 Facebook 编写的第一个人工智能代码，用于对实际的 News Feed 进行排名。
So there were a lot of firsts, and clearly this became a huge deal.
所以有很多第一，显然这成为了一件大事。
The News Feed is essentially what people think of when they think of Facebook now, but it was super controversial when it came out.
News Feed 基本上就是人们现在想到 Facebook 时想到的，但它问世时却引起了极大的争议。
People were very against this.
人们对此非常反对。
They did not want to be sharing this much information with people, or so they thought, and then they realized eventually, "Oh, this is actually exactly what I want." What did you learn from going through that experience of building something that people initially reject and then later realize that they actually do want this and this is exactly what they're waiting for?
他们不想与人们分享这么多信息，至少他们是这么认为的，然后他们最终意识到，“哦，这实际上正是我想要的。”你从构建人们最初拒绝的东西，然后后来意识到他们确实想要这个并且这正是他们正在等待的东西的经历中学到了什么？
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: This is a story that you tell a lot actually through your interviews, which is just like, "You have to have conviction in what you're building." You're choosing your customers as much as your customers are choosing you, is one way I think about it sometimes, and one mistake that you do see sometimes startups make is they get an early cohort of users whose needs actually take them kind of orthogonal to a larger market.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：这是一个你通过采访实际上讲述了很多的故事，就像“你必须对你正在构建的东西有信心”。你选择你的客户就像你的客户选择你一样，这是我有时思考的一种方式，你确实看到初创公司有时会犯的一个错误是他们获得了一批早期用户，这些用户的需求实际上使他们与更大的市场正交。
And so they become kind of held hostage by their earliest customers now.
因此，他们现在有点被最早的客户扣为人质。
So time and time again, we've had a vision for what we thought this should look like, and it wasn't the thing we were delivering right now.
所以一次又一次，我们对我们认为应该是什么样子有一个愿景，但这不是我们现在要交付的东西。
And so people who were using the thing we currently had were not sure that that change was what they wanted.
因此，使用我们当前产品的人们不确定这种改变是否是他们想要的。
But we had a confidence that over time they would, and we're not always right, but in these cases we were right.
但我们有信心，随着时间的推移，他们会的，而且我们并不总是正确的，但在这些情况下我们是对的。
Now News Feed was an easier case than people suspect, because everyone was outraged at the same time as they immediately doubled their usage of the product.
现在，News Feed 的情况比人们想象的要容易，因为每个人都感到愤怒，因为他们立即将该产品的使用量增加了一倍。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: So we had a few advantages there, which was, it was literally like everyone was like, "I hate this so much." And they would refresh, refresh, refresh.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：所以我们有一些优势，那就是，实际上每个人都在说，“我非常讨厌这个。”他们会刷新、刷新、刷新。
And so we were like, Okay, wait, there's cognitive dissonance here between what the stated preferences and what the revealed preferences are in the economic sense.
所以我们就想，好吧，等等，在经济意义上，所表述的偏好和所揭示的偏好之间存在认知不一致。
So News Feed was a little easier than people suspect, to us, to stick with.
因此，对于我们来说，新闻推送比人们想象的更容易坚持。
But people sometimes misunderstand that.
但人们有时会误解这一点。
They think, "Oh, the lesson is don't listen to your customers.
他们认为，“哦，教训是不要听取客户的意见。
Not at all." And we certainly care a tremendous amount.
一点也不。”我们当然非常关心。
And even with News Feed, we did actually screw some things up.
即使有了动态消息，我们实际上还是搞砸了一些事情。
I kind of always make this joke that it's almost like...
我总是开玩笑说这几乎就像......
You know when you're at the party and music's loud, you're talking to somebody and the music cuts out right when you're saying something at a super high volume, and so everyone in the party hears the last thing you said?
你知道，当你在聚会上，音乐很吵，你正在和某人说话，而当你以超高的音量说话时，音乐就会停止，所以聚会中的每个人都会听到你说的最后一句话？
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Now you were saying it in a public place, so it wasn't like it was a private comment, but you also didn't mean to broadcast it at that volume.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：现在你是在公共场所说这句话，所以这不像是私人评论，但你也无意以这样的音量进行广播。
We kind of did that to the entire user base.
我们对整个用户群都这样做了。
We took what had been wall posts, which sure, anybody could have gone to that profile and seen and then put it kind of on blast, on Main, as the kids say these days, "Put it on Main," and someone's like, "Ah." So we did that.
我们拿走了墙上的帖子，当然，任何人都可以去那个个人资料并看到，然后把它放在主网上，就像孩子们现在说的那样，“把它放在主网上”，有人会说，“啊。”所以我们就这么做了。
I don't want to say it like...
我不想这么说...
We did screw things up.
我们确实把事情搞砸了。
It wasn't like, "Oh, this is a clause execution." So another thing to know is like, "When did you screw something small up, and when did you do something big up?" When is the thing itself wrong, versus when were the details wrong?
它不像，“哦，这是一个条款执行。”所以另一件需要知道的事情是，“你什么时候搞砸了一些小事，什么时候做了一些大事？”什么时候事情本身是错误的，什么时候细节是错误的？
That is an art.
那是一门艺术。
That is a real art, and you don't always have user data to determine it like we did.
这是一门真正的艺术，您并不总是像我们一样拥有用户数据来确定它。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And so a lot of that is, "Do you have a clear vision and intuition for what you expected to happen?" And then what happened instead and can you diagnose the delta there?
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：所以很多都是“你对预期发生的事情有清晰的愿景和直觉吗？”然后发生了什么，你能诊断出那里的三角洲吗？
So in the News Feed case, we made a bunch of little mistakes.
因此，在 News Feed 案例中，我们犯了很多小错误。
The thing itself was right, and I really am quite proud of the work we did there.
事情本身是正确的，我真的为我们在那里所做的工作感到非常自豪。
Me and Chris Cox at the most core probably in the engineering side, which you saw as the PM, there was no ranked feeds before that.
我和 Chris Cox 可能是工程方面的最核心人员，您将其视为 PM，在此之前没有排名提要。
We did have some AI that I built before for the anti-spam, anti...
我们确实有一些我之前构建的人工智能，用于反垃圾邮件、反......
things, but it was pretty rudimentary, but it was probably the first consumer AI that was in a website of that kind around content.
东西，但它非常初级，但它可能是此类网站中围绕内容的第一个消费者人工智能。
And we built the most efficient monetizing surface in history outside of Search, I think.
我认为，我们在搜索之外建立了历史上最有效的盈利界面。
for those who are curious, I don't use monetization because I think money's the most important thing.
对于那些好奇的人，我不使用货币化，因为我认为金钱是最重要的。
I do think it suggests the economic power you've created, which I do think correlates very strongly with human utility.
我确实认为这表明了你所创造的经济实力，我确实认为这与人类效用密切相关。
Although obviously I respect that some people may disagree.
尽管显然我尊重有些人可能不同意。
Lenny: In terms of the economic utility, the Venn diagram of Boz, of News Feed and ads, create $1 trillion dollars of value.
Lenny：就经济效用而言，Boz、News Feed 和广告的维恩图创造了 1 万亿美元的价值。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: It's not nothing, not nothing.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：这不是什么都没有，不是什么都没有。
Lenny: You have this quote in one of your posts about the News Feed where you said, "It consumed me more fully than anything in life had ever consumed me.
莱尼：你在一篇关于动态消息的帖子中引用了这句话，你说：“它比生活中任何事情都更加彻底地消耗了我。
It opened up to me the truth that when you're passionate about something, you do better work, you do smarter work and you're, in order of magnitude, more productive."
它向我揭示了一个事实：当你对某件事充满热情时，你会做得更好、更聪明，而且从数量上来说，你的工作效率也会更高。”
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: There's no substitute for it.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：无可替代。
One thing I've learned about myself since that post actually is just the degree to which I am somebody who is inclined to be passionate about things.
自从那篇文章以来，我对自己了解的一件事实际上就是我是一个对事物充满热情的人。
And it's a gift that I'm lucky to have, and I understand that's not every person.
这是我很幸运能拥有的一份礼物，我知道不是每个人都有这样的天赋。
And so actually the ads thing is a good example.
事实上，广告就是一个很好的例子。
When Mark told me to go work on ads, I was like, " No, I don't want to.
当马克告诉我去做广告时，我说：“不，我不想。
I don't think I have a passion for that." I had this idea of myself.
我不认为我对此有热情。”我对自己有这样的想法。
I had a very strong identity of myself as this AI infrastructure product guy, and I was working in this space and nope, I was wrong.
作为人工智能基础设施产品人员，我对自己有一个非常强烈的认同，我在这个领域工作，不，我错了。
I just am a guy who gets excited about things.
我只是一个对事物感到兴奋的人。
Once I get into ads, it's like, "Oh, this is fascinating.
一旦我接触到广告，我就会觉得，“哦，这太迷人了。
It's a three-sided marketplace, and there's all these different..." It felt like I was playing chess times in terms of the moves with the other players in the industry, and I was super pumped about that.
这是一个三边形的市场，而且有很多不同的......”感觉就像我正在与业内其他参与者下棋，对此我感到非常兴奋。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And then when he wanted me to work on hardware, I was like, "No, I'm not.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：然后当他希望我从事硬件工作时，我说，“不，我不是。
I'm a software guy.
我是一个软件人。
I'm a software guy, Mark." And now, I love this work.
我是一名软件人员，马克。”现在，我喜欢这项工作。
That's such a fascinating space that I've learned so much.
这是一个如此迷人的空间，我学到了很多东西。
So I do think that's right.
所以我认为这是对的。
I do think what I find something I'm passionate about that's good.
我确实认为我发现自己热爱的事情是件好事。
What I have learned since then is to give myself a space to understand if I can get passionate about it.
从那时起我学到的是给自己一个空间去了解我是否能够对它充满热情。
Now, there are parts of jobs that I've had before where I just never found the passion, and after six months I just have to move on.
现在，我以前从事过的某些工作我只是从未找到激情，六个月后我只能继续前进。
Literally it's like I'll either quit, get fired, I'm doing bad work, I don't care about the work.
从字面上看，这就像我要么辞职，要么被解雇，我工作做得不好，我不关心工作。
And so I do have a self-awareness.
所以我确实有自我意识。
It's not that I can get passionate about anything, but I do have a pretty broad palette, it turns out.
这并不是说我会对任何事情充满热情，但事实证明，我确实有一个相当广泛的调色板。
Lenny: I think that's a really interesting career lesson of, "Don't assume you won't be excited about something that may come up." Is there anything there that you'd share with folks of just like, "Explore it, give it six months, see if you can get excited about it?"
莱尼：我认为这是一个非常有趣的职业教训，“不要以为你不会对可能出现的事情感到兴奋。”您是否有什么可以与人们分享的，比如“探索它，给它六个月的时间，看看您是否会对它感到兴奋？”
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Absolutely.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：当然。
So I have a very unusual career arc in some ways, which is I really almost changed jobs every six months for a long time.
所以在某些方面我有一个非常不寻常的职业生涯，这就是很长一段时间我几乎每六个月换一次工作。
I was working on this integrity stuff with News Feed in the background.
我正在以动态消息为背景，致力于诚信方面的工作。
Then I was working on News Feed for about a year.
然后我在 News Feed 上工作了大约一年。
Then I worked on site speed and infrastructure and detecting SAVs and issues.
然后我负责站点速度和基础设施以及检测 SAV 和问题。
And then I worked on Bootcamp, and then I worked on messaging and groups.
然后我在 Bootcamp 工作，然后我在消息传递和群组方面工作。
I had this really funny thing.
我有一件非常有趣的事情。
I was kind of joking it was like, for those who are old enough to remember Karate Kid, I felt like I was painting a lot of fences, waxing a lot of cars, and at the end I knew karate.
我有点开玩笑，对于那些还记得《空手道小子》的人来说，我觉得我画了很多栅栏，给很多汽车打蜡，最后我学会了空手道。
I was like at the end, at the end I had the payoff, because I'd gone through and I'd met a lot of people and I'd worked in these different areas and I understood different dynamics.
我就像最后，最后我得到了回报，因为我经历过，遇到了很多人，我在这些不同的领域工作过，我了解不同的动态。
Well, other people who joined in my cohort were getting promoted, but they were in a single track.
嗯，加入我的团队的其他人都得到了晋升，但他们都在一条轨道上。
They just stayed in one place and they got promoted, whereas I kept moving around.
他们只是呆在一个地方就升职了，而我却一直在四处走动。
And it probably at some point early in my career felt like I was moving more slowly relative to my peers.
也许在我职业生涯早期的某个时刻，我感觉自己相对于同龄人来说进展得更慢。
And then when I finally turned the corner, really with the ads appointment, which I did for five years, I went vertical.
然后，当我终于转危为安时，真的是在广告预约之后，我做了五年，我开始垂直前进。
I just like my career went vertical.
我只是喜欢我的职业生涯是垂直的。
And since then I've kind of been on that trajectory.
从那时起我就一直走在这条轨道上。
And so advice I most often give people, for me at least, the lesson that I take from this, is I just was willing to learn aggressively.
因此，我最常给人们的建议是，至少对我来说，我从中得到的教训是，我愿意积极学习。
I would move because I wasn't learning enough.
我会搬家，因为我学得还不够。
I was bored, and so I wasn't learning enough new stuff.
我很无聊，所以我没有学到足够的新东西。
And what was cool about finally getting to the ads job, and likewise in the job I'm in now, is those jobs, I learned a ton for five years.
最终从事广告工作的最酷之处在于，在我现在从事的工作中，我在五年里学到了很多东西。
I'd never stopped learning in those jobs.
在这些工作中我从未停止过学习。
You will occasionally find those jobs where they're super deep and you can just keep learning.
你偶尔会发现那些工作非常有深度，你可以继续学习。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Meanwhile, a lot of my friends whose careers were on a better trajectory then earlier, they literally got bored of what they were doing, but they didn't have any place to jump to.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：与此同时，我的很多朋友的职业生涯都比以前更好，他们确实对自己所做的事情感到厌倦，但他们没有任何地方可以跳。
There wasn't some other...
没有其他的...
They'd become domain specialists in a domain that they'd kind of exhausted for themselves.
他们已经成为某个领域的专家，而这个领域他们已经耗尽了自己的精力。
And maybe they'd even stuck around longer than they wanted to because it was comfortable or because the company wanted them to.
也许他们呆在公司的时间比他们想要的要长，因为这样很舒服，或者因为公司希望他们这样做。
And it ended up kind of being a hindrance to them in the middle of their career.
这最终成为他们职业生涯中期的障碍。
And so for me, it's like, "Jump into new things, give it six months.
所以对我来说，就像是，“跳入新事物，给它六个月的时间。
If it's not the thing, no problem.
如果不是这个问题，没问题。
You just built a ton of new skills that's going to come in handy, I promise you that.
你刚刚掌握了大量的新技能，这些技能将会派上用场，我向你保证。
Keep going." And likewise, when you do make that jump early career, optimize for learning, optimize for...
继续。”同样，当你在职业生涯早期实现这一跨越时，优化学习、优化……
Think about a compound interest.
考虑一下复利。
It's like the first 10 years of compound interest don't look that impressive.
就好像前 10 年的复利看起来并不那么令人印象深刻。
It's like after 10 years it starts to look good.
好像10年后它开始看起来不错。
Lenny: I love that advice.
莱尼：我喜欢这个建议。
It's similar advice I always give of, "Variety of experience often ends up being the most valuable thing you build over time," just trying to bunch of stuff, doing some internal tools, maybe working on customer support, I don't know, trust and safety, user-facing products, infrastructure.
我总是给出类似的建议，“随着时间的推移，各种经验往往最终会成为你构建的最有价值的东西”，只是尝试一堆东西，做一些内部工具，也许致力于客户支持，我不知道，信任和安全，面向用户的产品，基础设施。
I'm thinking from a PM's perspective, maybe an engineers, and other functions.
我是从产品经理的角度思考的，也许是工程师，还有其他职能部门。
One question along those lines.
沿着这一思路提出一个问题。
So we talked about the eye of Sauron and working on the most important thing at the company.
所以我们谈论了索伦之眼以及在公司最重要的事情上的工作。
Do you have any advice on how much of your career you should be working in that center?
对于您应该在该中心工作多少职业生涯，您有什么建议吗？
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Yeah, listen, being equal, I think there's two really good places to be.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：是的，听着，平等，我认为有两个非常好的地方。
I think one is carrying a lot of water in areas that the company's not paying attention to but you are important.
我认为一个人在公司不关注的领域携带了大量的水，但你很重要。
And it needs to be a lot.
而且需要很多。
You got to own that stuff and really move mountains over there, because I promise you, as an executive, when there's a huge dam holding up the floodwaters, you respect the heck out of the person who is holding that dam up.
你必须拥有这些东西，并真正移走那里的大山，因为我向你保证，作为一名高管，当有一座巨大的水坝挡住洪水时，你会尊重那些挡住大坝的人。
You're like, "You keep doing that, Atlas, that is good work over there." The second-best place to be, or maybe equally, is on the most important thing.
你会说，“你继续这样做，阿特拉斯，那是很好的工作。”第二好的地方，或者也许同样的地方，是在最重要的事情上。
And on the most important thing, that's where you get to the advice that Eric Schmidt gave Sheryl Sandberg, which is like, "Hey, it's a rocket ship.
最重要的是，这就是埃里克·施密特给谢丽尔·桑德伯格的建议，就像，“嘿，这是一艘火箭飞船。
Get on.
上车吧。
Don't ask what seat I'm in.
别问我坐在哪个座位。
Just get on."
继续吧。”
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: If it's the most important thing, you're going to get a smaller piece.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：如果这是最重要的事情，你会得到一个较小的部分。
Everyone wants to be there.
每个人都想在那里。
Get the piece.
拿到那块。
If it's the most important thing, get the piece that you can crush, kill, do a great job at and grow from, because you're going to get a ton of visibility, you're going to get a ton of experience.
如果这是最重要的事情，那就得到你可以粉碎、杀死、做得很好并从中成长的那部分，因为你将获得大量的知名度，你将获得大量的经验。
You're going to see what it looks like in the fire, in the fire, and that is invaluable.
你会看到它在火中的样子，在火中，这是无价的。
You will use that everywhere.
你会在任何地方使用它。
And so I say that.
所以我这么说。
That's at project selection time, but now I'll be cautious.
那是在项目选择的时候，但现在我会谨慎。
Understand, projects that start in the fire, hopefully, are forged in some manner of metal that cools and is no longer in the fire, like God willing.
要明白，在火中开始的项目，希望是用某种金属锻造而成，冷却后不再在火中，就像上帝愿意的那样。
And likewise, things like dams that are holding up floodwaters have a tendency to crack or break or floods overcome .
同样，阻挡洪水的水坝之类的东西也有破裂或破裂或洪水淹没的趋势。
So I think you do want to be at selection time in one of those two places, but then you also...
所以我认为你确实想在选拔时在这两个地方之一，但你也......
You're going to stick with the ride.
您将继续骑行。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And again, to my point, if you're not engaged, if you aren't doing great work, if you don't love it, then move on.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：再说一次，就我的观点而言，如果你没有订婚，如果你没有做出色的工作，如果你不喜欢它，那就继续前进。
If you've exhausted it, you used to love it, but you don't anymore, move on.
如果你已经厌倦了，你曾经喜欢它，但你不再喜欢它了，继续前进吧。
If you still love it and you're engaged, great.
如果你仍然喜欢它并且订婚了，那就太好了。
That's cool.
这很酷。
That's a great thing.
这是一件很棒的事情。
You deserve to go from the forge to the dam and back over time.
随着时间的推移，你应该从熔炉到水坝再回来。
You don't have to always just keep jumping onto the latest fire.
你不必总是跳到最新的火上。
I tried to do that once, after the ad .
在广告之后我尝试这样做一次。
Actually, so I spent six months and we built the first mobile ad product in 2012 and kind of saved the IPO, which had gotten pretty grim -
事实上，我花了六个月的时间，在 2012 年开发了第一个移动广告产品，并挽救了 IPO，当时情况已经变得相当严峻 -
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: ...
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：……
that point.
那一点。
And I told Mark, I was like, "This is so fun.
我告诉马克，我当时想，“这太有趣了。
Maybe you can just keep doing this, just putting me on the biggest fire every six months." And he turns to me, he said, "Buzz, that's not a real job."
也许你可以继续这样做，每六个月让我经历一次最大的火灾。”他转向我，说道：“巴兹，那不是一份真正的工作。”
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: He's like, "I need you to stay here and usher this forward," which I did for the next four and a half years.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：他就像是，“我需要你留在这里并引领这一切向前发展”，在接下来的四年半里我就是这样做的。
And it was amazing.
这太棒了。
It was amazing.
太棒了。
And again, I do give him such...
再说一遍，我确实给了他这样的...
It's funny, I'm going to get a hard time in this.
有趣的是，我会在这方面遇到困难。
One of our biggest critics as well as being one of his biggest fans.
我们最大的批评者之一，也是他最大的粉丝之一。
I have both those jobs, but today we're talking about stuff that I think Mark really demonstrates really well.
我同时拥有这两项工作，但今天我们谈论的是我认为马克确实展示得非常好的东西。
And he did a great job of pushing me in my career to different places where I didn't think I could succeed.
他非常出色地将我的职业生涯推向了我认为无法成功的不同地方。
And he saw the opportunity that made it happen.
他看到了实现这一目标的机会。
Lenny: What have you learned about that, giving Mark negative criticism, anything that he accepts?
莱尼：从给予马克负面批评、他接受的任何事情中，你学到了什么？
What do you learned about that?
从中你学到了什么？
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Mark's voracious for all information and all points of view.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：马克渴望所有信息和所有观点。
One of the things that's pretty interesting, I talked earlier about how much, as a founder, I think especially, you have to have tremendous conviction.
其中一件非常有趣的事情是，我之前谈到过，作为一名创始人，我特别认为，你必须有巨大的信念。
You just have to have a tremendous degree of confidence.
您只需要拥有极大的信心即可。
And I think Mark is somebody who is maybe the strongest willpower of a person I've ever met, just in a pure willpower sense.
我认为马克可能是我见过的意志力最强的人，就纯粹的意志力而言。
One thing that's interesting about Mark is you'll give him feedback, he listens.
马克有趣的一件事是，你会给他反馈，他会倾听。
He's a kind person to work for, so you'll give him feedback, and he'll listen.
他是一个很友善的人，所以你会给他反馈，他会倾听。
Truly.
确实。
He'll most often tell you that you're wrong, why you're wrong.
他通常会告诉你你错了，为什么错了。
That's just like most often.
就像大多数情况一样。
And what will happen is...
而将会发生的事情是……
It's uncanny.
这太不可思议了。
It's like over the course of the next week or two, you'll just see shifts.
就好像在接下来的一两周内，你就会看到变化。
And I don't think he's doing it...
而且我不认为他会这么做...
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: I've always joked that the information gets to him.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：我总是开玩笑说这些信息传给了他。
So much information every day gets him.
他每天都会收到很多信息。
And then at night, he re-compiles the whole world with all that information and comes back.
然后到了晚上，他用所有这些信息重新编译了整个世界并回来了。
And by the way, this is not just true about product work.
顺便说一句，这不仅仅适用于产品工作。
In my head, I was thinking about product stuff where he was like, "Hey, I think this product is doing this wrong." He's like, "No, no, that's why it's not that way." And the product will start to shift.
在我的脑海里，我正在考虑产品的东西，他就像是，“嘿，我认为这个产品做错了。”他说：“不，不，这就是为什么事情不是那样的。”产品将开始转变。
Also to give him feedback just on his own presence in a meeting or delivery, he'll be like, "Oh, well here's why I did it that way." And then a couple weeks later, you'll get in a similar situation, and he will moderate how he shows up.
另外，为了向他提供有关他自己在会议或交付中的存在的反馈，他会说，“哦，这就是我这样做的原因。”几周后，你会遇到类似的情况，他会调整自己的表现。
So I actually find him somebody who's really satisfying to give him feedback.
所以我实际上找到了一个真正愿意给他反馈的人。
It really works.
它确实有效。
It's very effective, but you do have to take the long view on it.
它非常有效，但你必须以长远的眼光来看待它。
And he will have a...
而他将会有一个...
The things he did, he didn't do an accident.
他所做的事情，并不是偶然的。
He will have a reason why he did them the way he did them.
他这样做会有一个理由。
Lenny: It's a great example of strong opinions, loosely held.
莱尼：这是一个很好的例子，它表达了强烈的观点，但又松散地持有。
Lenny: It also makes me think, I think you used the compiler analogy.
Lenny：这也让我思考，我认为你使用了编译器的类比。
I'm thinking the model training.
我正在考虑模型训练。
He's retrained his model overnight.
他连夜重新训练了他的模型。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Yeah, that's right.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：是的，没错。
It's funny.
很有趣。
One of the things that's so funny about Mark is if you give him some feedback in the morning, the next six meetings he has, whether it's about that product or not, he'll ask people what they think of that feedback.
马克最有趣的事情之一是，如果你早上给他一些反馈，他接下来的六次会议，无论是否与该产品有关，他都会询问人们对这些反馈的看法。
He won't attribute.
他不会归因。
He's just like, "Hey, what do you think about this in this product?
他只是说，“嘿，你觉得这个产品怎么样？
And so you'll be in a meeting with him and you'll see him doing it.
所以你会和他一起开会，你会看到他这样做。
He'll come to the meeting with you about some other topic.
他会来和你讨论其他话题。
He'll be like, "Hey boss, what do you think about this product and this idea?" And so he will, over the course of the day, take that little note and kind of pressure test it, and he loves to triangulate.
他会说，“嘿老板，你觉得这个产品和这个想法怎么样？”因此，他会在一天中记下这个小笔记并对其进行压力测试，而且他喜欢进行三角测量。
Where are all the points of view on this that maybe you didn't see?
您可能没有看到的所有观点在哪里？
So he really values a broad perspective on each thing that's being discussed, which is really fun.
所以他非常重视对正在讨论的每件事的广泛视角，这真的很有趣。
Lenny: Trying to get more training data for his model.
Lenny：尝试为他的模型获取更多训练数据。
I get it.
我明白了。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: You can't get me to call Mark an LLM.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：你不能让我称 Mark 为法学硕士。
That's not fair.
这不公平。
That's .
那是。
Lenny: We could all hope to be as smart as Mark.
莱尼：我们都希望能像马克一样聪明。
As you were talking, I noticed your tattoos, and it reminded me that you've got at least two tattoos that I'm aware of.
当你说话时，我注意到你的纹身，这提醒我，我知道你至少有两个纹身。
Lenny: One is of California, which I completely understand.
莱尼：一个是加利福尼亚州的，我完全理解。
California is a very special place, but you have this other tattoo that is just the words Veritas.
加州是一个非常特别的地方，但你还有另一个纹身，那就是 Veritas 一词。
Can you talk about what that's about and why that's important to you?
您能谈谈这是什么意思以及为什么这对您很重要吗？
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: The funny thing about tattoos in general is I came out of high school, I was like...
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：纹身的有趣之处在于我高中毕业后，我就像......
I don't know if there was an archetype for me, but I didn't drink until I was 21.
我不知道是否有一个适合我的原型，但我直到21岁才喝酒。
I was a very rule-following person.
我是一个非常遵守规则的人。
I was like, "Why are you going to get a tattoo, affect your body?
我当时想，“你为什么要纹身，影响你的身体？
"Why would you dye your hair?
“你为什么要染头发？
Just let it be what it was." And some of this was I think I was somebody who was privileged and had a great deal of self-confidence in who I was and what I wanted to be, and that was fine.
就让它保持原来的样子吧。”其中一些是我认为我是一个享有特权的人，并且对自己是谁以及我想成为什么人充满自信，这很好。
But in some ways I was also weirdly judgey about other people in a way that's kind of off- brain for me, certainly today it would be, but at the time, getting a tattoo is a big deal for me.
但在某些方面，我也以一种对我来说有点疯狂的方式对其他人进行奇怪的评判，当然今天会是这样，但在当时，纹身对我来说是一件大事。
I was like, "Oh, this is just the vehicle for my life and you can do whatever you want with it.
我当时想，“哦，这只是我生活的工具，你可以用它做任何你想做的事情。
And it's not like a...
而且它并不像一个...
It's something that you possess, and if you feel like if you want to decorate it, you can decorate it.
它是你拥有的东西，如果你想装饰它，你就可以装饰它。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And so getting a tattoo was a big deal to me actually, and I completely shifted my mindset of how I thought about my body and how I thought about people's body and their presence and their time, maybe to some degree, even an understanding of mortality.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：所以纹身对我来说实际上是一件大事，我完全改变了我对自己身体的看法，以及我对人们的身体、他们的存在和他们的时间的看法，也许在某种程度上，甚至是对死亡的理解。
Like, "Hey, can't take it with you.
就像，“嘿，不能随身携带。
It's all going to go..." When you're 18, you think you're going to live forever, and by the time you're 22, a grizzled 22-year-old veteran, you're like, "Ah, tattoo that bad boy up.
一切都会过去……”当你 18 岁的时候，你认为自己会永远活着，到了 22 岁的时候，一个头发花白的 22 岁退伍军人，你会说，“啊，给那个坏男孩纹身。
It's all going down." And so yeah, that's why I got the Veritas tattoo, which is Latin for truth, which is...
一切都在下降。”所以，是的，这就是我纹身 Veritas 的原因，它是拉丁语的真理，它是......
I will say it's a little cheesy, because it's also Harvard's motto.
我会说这有点俗气，因为这也是哈佛的座右铭。
But I got it in a monotype font.
但我得到的是单色字体。
This is the programmer's font here.
这是程序员的字体。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: The other thing that's interesting to me about tattoos was it's also part of a generational shift.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：纹身让我感兴趣的另一件事是它也是代际转变的一部分。
We grew up in a time when tattoos were really seen by adults as gangs or bikers or sailors or certain types.
在我们成长的时代，纹身实际上被成年人视为帮派、骑自行车的人、水手或某些类型。
Now my understanding, I saw a stat recently that more people in my generation have tattoos than don't have tattoos.
现在我的理解是，我最近看到一个统计数据，我们这一代有纹身的人比没有纹身的人多。
And so I think we also just culturally shifted positions in a way that...
所以我认为我们也只是在文化上改变了立场......
I find richness of self-expression wonderful.
我发现丰富的自我表达很棒。
I really think it's great.
我真的觉得这很棒。
And so I'm here for all of it.
所以我来这里是为了这一切。
Lenny: My assumption from what you're describing is, this idea of truth is very important to the way you think and work.
莱尼：根据您的描述，我的假设是，这种真理观念对于您的思考和工作方式非常重要。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: My reputation does precede me on this point, I'm afraid, which is...
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：恐怕在这一点上我的声誉确实领先于我，这是......
I think when I was young, I saw being honest...
我想当我年轻的时候，我看到了诚实......
And I was wrong by the way.
顺便说一句，我错了。
I saw being honest as kind of a get out of jail free card.
我认为诚实就像一张出狱卡。
You could say whatever you wanted as long as you're being honest.
只要你诚实，你想说什么都可以。
That's just not the case at all.
事实并非如此。
I've written about this before, but by far my biggest professional regrets were me not being kind.
我以前曾写过此事，但到目前为止，我最大的职业遗憾是我不友善。
And I used to think...
而我曾经以为...
I wrote this note a while back called Be Kind, where being nice, that's like patronizing, or telling somebody things that are half-truths or just getting by.
不久前我写了这张纸条，名为“友善”，友善，就像居高临下，或者告诉某人一些半真半假的事情或只是过得去。
And I'm against that.
我反对这样做。
But being kind isn't that.
但善良并不是这样。
Being kind is like, "Hey, how can I deliver this feedback in a way that is actually productive and helpful, in a way that is going to help them and not cause them just to feel bad and helpless?
友善就像是，“嘿，我怎样才能以一种真正富有成效和有帮助的方式提供反馈，以一种能够帮助他们而不是让他们感到难过和无助的方式？
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And I think I did that wrong a lot as a kid, as a young man.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：我认为，作为一个孩子、一个年轻人，我犯了很多错。
And so being honest is still a big part of my personality.
因此，诚实仍然是我性格的重要组成部分。
No one would ever accuse me of being dishonest who knows me.
认识我的人都不会指责我不诚实。
And I think people understand and respect that I'm pretty direct, and if I have concerns or issues, I'm going to bring them up.
我认为人们理解并尊重我的直接，如果我有疑虑或问题，我会提出来。
I'm just much better at bringing them up now and expressing a true care and belief.
我现在更擅长抚养他们并表达真正的关心和信念。
I wouldn't bring it up if I didn't think we could do better, if I didn't think we could fix it, if I didn't believe in this situation.
如果我认为我们不能做得更好，如果我认为我们不能解决问题，如果我不相信这种情况，我就不会提出这个问题。
And so being honest is still a huge part of my identity, and I think that's something I'm very proud of.
因此，诚实仍然是我身份的重要组成部分，我认为这是我感到非常自豪的事情。
But I will say the contextualization of how I'm honest has changed immensely since I got this tattoo.
但我要说的是，自从我纹了这个纹身以来，我的诚实态度已经发生了巨大的变化。
Lenny: That seems reasonable.
莱尼：这似乎很合理。
This touches a little bit on something I definitely wanted to talk about, which is one of your most classic pieces, and this is the way I first learned about you, is a piece that is called Communication is the Job.
这涉及到一些我绝对想谈论的事情，这是你最经典的作品之一，这是我第一次了解你的方式，是一篇叫做“沟通就是工作”的作品。
Lenny: I know many people have read this, many people haven't.
莱尼：我知道很多人读过这篇文章，也有很多人没有读过。
I'd love for you to just talk about what this means and why this is important, why this is something that you wanted to share.
我希望您能谈谈这意味着什么，为什么这很重要，为什么这是您想要分享的东西。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Yeah, it's one of the things that, especially if you aspire to be a leader...
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：是的，这是其中一件事，特别是如果你渴望成为一名领导者……
And leadership isn't management, and leadership isn't being the only person responsible, it's not even always the same as accountability.
领导力不是管理，领导力也不是唯一负责的人，它甚至并不总是与问责制相同。
But if you want to have an impact...
但如果你想产生影响......
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: It's not even always the same as accountability, but if you want to have an impact on the world around you, it is exclusively done through the creation of artifacts or verbalizations that affect other humans.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：它甚至并不总是与问责制相同，但如果你想对周围的世界产生影响，那就只能通过创造影响其他人类的文物或言语来实现。
That is all there is.
仅此而已。
That's all there is if you want to have an impact, if you want to create some kind of a lasting change.
如果你想产生影响，如果你想创造某种持久的改变，这就是全部。
And it could be in your little relationship, it could be in your team, it could be in your company, it could be in the world.
它可能在你的小关系中，它可能在你的团队中，它可能在你的公司中，它可能在世界上。
It is down to communication.
这取决于沟通。
And so often you hear people saying, "Oh yeah, I wrote that up a year ago." It's like, "Yeah, but you did a bad job of writing it up a year ago, or we would've not wasted a year not doing it."
你经常听到人们说：“哦，是的，我一年前写的。”就像是，“是的，但是你一年前写得不好，否则我们不会浪费一年不做这件事。”
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: People always think that's, "Oh, I had that idea," and that's means anything.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：人们总是认为，“哦，我有这个想法”，这意味着任何事情。
It means nothing.
这没有任何意义。
It means absolutely nothing.
这绝对没有任何意义。
Or it's like, "Oh, I wrote this post." Well, you didn't break through with it.
或者就像，“哦，我写了这篇文章。”好吧，你没有突破它。
That's on you.
那是你的事了。
It's not on the audience.
这不是在观众身上。
People want to blame the audience.
人们想责怪观众。
Well, the audience is just there.
嗯，观众就在那里。
I mentioned this even earlier, and I hope people caught it, when I said, "Hey," I give somebody a piece of work and they come back six months later and they have done the wrong thing, I'll take the L.
我之前就提到过这一点，我希望人们能明白这一点，当我说“嘿”时，我给某人一份工作，六个月后他们回来，发现他们做了错误的事情，我会拿 L。
I will take the L on it.
我会选择L。
It's not great for them.
这对他们来说不太好。
They'll be pissed they wasted their time, but like I said, that's my responsibility.
他们会因为浪费时间而生气，但就像我说的，这是我的责任。
I did not communicate clearly what I wanted, what the expectations were.
我没有清楚地表达我想要什么，期望是什么。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Could they have also helped themselves?
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：他们也能帮助自己吗？
Sure, they could have, and that's a thing that takes all sides.
当然，他们可以这样做，而且这是一个需要各方共同努力的事情。
We should work on this problem for both angles.
我们应该从两个角度来解决这个问题。
I have another post called Listening is the Job, which is the other side of this.
我有另一篇文章叫做“倾听就是工作”，这是这篇文章的另一面。
But communication is the job is, I really believe...
但沟通就是工作，我真的相信......
Actually, it's the relationship to this idea that came out of the US Marines and the SEALs of extreme ownership, which is...
事实上，美国海军陆战队和海豹突击队的极端所有权与这个想法的关系是……
So whenever thing goes wrong, I ask myself, "What could I have done differently in terms of how I communicated things for this to have gone better?" Could I have set priorities better?
因此，每当事情出现问题时，我都会问自己：“在沟通事情的方式上，我可以做哪些不同的事情，以使事情变得更好？”我可以更好地设定优先事项吗？
Could I have set expectations better?
我可以更好地设定期望吗？
Did I need to have a better metric that I pointed the team at?
我是否需要为团队提供更好的指标？
Did I put the wrong people on it?
我是否放错了人？
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: By the way, the thing I talk about is org charts are communication devices.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：顺便说一句，我所说的是组织结构图是通信设备。
They don't exist.
它们不存在。
There's not a physical string between you and your manager.
您和您的经理之间没有任何物理联系。
They're just communication tools that are supposed to give people a rough sense of how things are organized and where to go with who.
它们只是沟通工具，应该让人们大致了解事物是如何组织的以及与谁一起去哪里。
And so all these things are communication.
所以所有这些都是沟通。
Silence is communication, me not reaching out to you to check on you, to check on your project.
沉默就是沟通，我不会联系你来检查你、检查你的项目。
We talked about the earlier.
我们之前谈到过。
What does that mean?
这意味着什么？
That means trust.
这意味着信任。
That means responsibility.
这意味着责任。
The absence of check-ins has meaning.
没有签到是有意义的。
You cannot not communicate.
你们不能不沟通。
You are always communicating something with your face, with your clothes, with your body.
你总是用你的脸、你的衣服、你的身体来传达一些东西。
What are you communicating?
你们在交流什么？
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: I'll give you a funny example, which I hope we get to put in the podcast, because if you're watching this on video, you will have noticed that my camera cannot stop adjusting light.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：我给你举一个有趣的例子，我希望我们能把它放在播客中，因为如果你在视频中观看这个例子，你会注意到我的相机无法停止调整光线。
It's just constantly too dark or too bright.
只是总是太暗或太亮。
I'm trying a new camera.
我正在尝试一台新相机。
I'm a nerdy guy.
我是个书呆子。
I try a lot of camera gear, I try a lot of microphone gear.
我尝试了很多相机装备，我尝试了很多麦克风装备。
I love to have all the latest gadgets and gizmos, so I'm trying something new.
我喜欢拥有所有最新的小玩意和小玩意，所以我正在尝试一些新的东西。
It's not working.
它不起作用。
And in my head I'm like, what is this communicating about me?
在我的脑海里，我想，这对我来说意味着什么？
People are going to think that I don't care or that I'm not competent.
人们会认为我不在乎或者我没有能力。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: That's what I'm talking about.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：这就是我所说的。
And now, I felt compelled to explain it in the podcast so that I can communicate clearly that that's not the case.
现在，我觉得有必要在播客中解释它，以便我可以清楚地传达事实并非如此。
I really just think so much of what I try to do in my professional life is understand the mental model of other people.
我真的认为我在职业生涯中所做的很多事情就是理解其他人的心理模型。
Where are they right now?
他们现在在哪里？
And I mean specific people, like my managers or my key technical leaders, and I mean general people like teams, and I mean broadly just the average human.
我的意思是特定的人，比如我的经理或关键技术领导者，我的意思是像团队这样的一般人，我的意思是广义上的普通人。
Where are they at in this conversation?
他们在这次谈话中处于什么位置？
And how can I craft my language, my presence, my persona, everything to usher them from where they are to where I want to get them?
我怎样才能设计我的语言、我的存在、我的角色以及一切来引导他们从他们所在的地方到达我想要他们到达的地方？
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And that requires me to have a very clear idea of where I want to get them, have to have a clear idea of where they are.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：这要求我非常清楚地知道我想在哪里得到它们，必须清楚地知道它们在哪里。
And I want to tell you, it's not as much work as it sounds like.
我想告诉你，这并不像听起来那么繁重。
I think no one would accuse me of having this big fabricated persona.
我想没有人会指责我有这么大的捏造人物。
It's not that.
不是那样的。
But it is having tremendous empathy for where people are starting.
但它对人们的起点有着极大的同理心。
That was the lead for me.
这就是我的领先优势。
All the rest of it, all the rest of how I show up in meetings trying to smile more, because I'm like a big scary guy, those things are little things that you work on and they become second nature and they're easy.
剩下的一切，所有我在会议上表现得更加微笑的方式，因为我就像一个可怕的大家伙，这些事情都是你要做的小事情，它们变成了第二天性，而且很容易。
The hard thing is just having the empathy for your audience and being, "Where are they?
困难的事情是对你的观众产生同理心，并问“他们在哪里？
Where are they starting?" And when you miss taking responsibility for that, extreme responsibility for that.
他们从哪里开始？”当你错过为此承担责任时，那就要承担极大的责任。
Lenny: There's so much good advice in that.
莱尼：这里面有很多好的建议。
There's so many threads I want to follow, but let's just follow this last one of trying to understand how someone is best communicated to.
我想关注的主题有很多，但让我们只关注最后一个主题，尝试了解如何最好地与某人沟通。
Is there an example to make that a little more real for people of just what you've done to, "Oh, here's how I'm going to communicate with this person?"
有没有一个例子可以让人们更真实地了解你所做的事情，“哦，这就是我将如何与这个人沟通？”
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: I'll give you a couple.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：我给你几个。
One is multimodality.
一是多模态。
There's an old saying, repetition never spoiled the prayer.
有句老话说，重复永远不会破坏祈祷。
And I think most experienced communicators, whether they be writers, whether they be public speakers, talk about the importance of reiterating a point several times and in several different ways to make sure that people have a chance to internalize it.
我认为大多数有经验的沟通者，无论他们是作家，还是公共演讲者，都会谈论以多种不同方式多次重申某一观点的重要性，以确保人们有机会将其内化。
You want to use it, you want to say it directly, you want to use metaphor.
你想要使用它，你想要直接说出来，你想要使用隐喻。
And so for me, I will give an all-hands and then write a post with the content of the all-hands, because different people are going to respond differently to these modalities and are going to absorb information at different rates on these different modalities.
因此，对我来说，我将举行全体会议，然后写一篇包含全体会议内容的帖子，因为不同的人会对这些模式做出不同的反应，并且会以不同的速度吸收这些不同模式的信息。
That's a trivial one.
这是一件微不足道的事。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Another one that I think of all the time is making sure that you address people's fears and concerns.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：我一直想到的另一件事是确保解决人们的恐惧和担忧。
People will not listen to you if they think you don't know what's going on.
如果人们认为你不知道发生了什么，他们就不会听你的。
And so, one of my favorite things to do when we're talking about some kind of issue is right up top and say, "Hey, let me be clear.
因此，当我们谈论某种问题时，我最喜欢做的事情之一就是直接说：“嘿，让我说清楚。
This is the issue we're having.
这就是我们遇到的问题。
I know we're having it.
我知道我们正在经历它。
I know what matters." And then I'll say the same thing that I would've said, but they would've literally ignored me, because how can they trust my conclusions if they don't accept the premise?
我知道什么是重要的。”然后我会说我本来会说的同样的话，但他们实际上会忽略我，因为如果他们不接受前提，他们怎么能相信我的结论呢？
You know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
I think there's a whole piece there.
我认为那里有一整块。
Obviously when you're in person, it's a lot easier because you're reading facial expressions.
显然，当你面对面时，事情会容易得多，因为你正在阅读面部表情。
Even on this, I'm reading you nodding on that.
即使在这一点上，我也看到你对此点头。
I'm like, "Okay, he's with me." And then I throw in a, "You know what I mean?" Whereas if you give me a cocked head, I then bring a second example to try to drive the point home.
我说：“好吧，他和我在一起。”然后我插一句：“你知道我的意思吗？”然而，如果你歪着头，我就会举出第二个例子来试图阐明这一点。
But you build yourself up.
但你要增强自己。
Most people are going to realistically start in their careers trying to influence one or two people.
大多数人在开始自己的职业生涯时都会切实地尝试影响一两个人。
That's where you start.
这就是你开始的地方。
One or two people.
一两个人。
That's who you got to communicate with.
这就是你必须与之沟通的人。
Your manager, one teammate, that's who you got.
你的经理，一名队友，这就是你所拥有的。
And then you build up and build up and build up a skillset to do it at a larger and larger scale.
然后你不断地建立一套技能，以便在越来越大的范围内做到这一点。
Lenny: I love so much of this advice.
莱尼：我非常喜欢这个建议。
I think it's also helpful for relationships.
我认为这对于人际关系也很有帮助。
"Here's what you're upset about."
“这就是你感到不安的原因。”
Lenny: "Here's what I think we can do."
莱尼：“我认为我们可以做这些。”
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Again, the work that I've had so graciously supported to do on myself at Meta with great mentors, Sheryl Sandberg, Mark Zuckerberg, a bunch of others and coaches absolutely made me a better partner and husband, and my wife.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：再说一次，我在 Meta 得到了伟大导师谢丽尔·桑德伯格、马克·扎克伯格、其他人和教练的慷慨支持，这些工作绝对让我成为了更好的伴侣、丈夫和妻子。
And then by the way, vice versa.
顺便说一句，反之亦然。
Having kids and getting deep in the literature around raising children.
生孩子并深入研究有关养育孩子的文献。
Congratulations to you, by the way.
顺便说一句，恭喜你。
Getting deep in that literature made me a better manager.
深入研究这些文献使我成为一名更好的经理。
Absolutely made me a better manager in terms of thinking about how people are managing their emotions and how to engage with them in those times.
在思考人们如何管理自己的情绪以及如何在这些时候与他们互动方面，这绝对让我成为了一名更好的管理者。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
We need a second edition of this Boz's Parenting Advice.
我们需要博兹的育儿建议的第二版。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: It's all the good stuff.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：都是好东西。
No bad kids, Lansbury, it's good inside, Dr. Becky.
没有坏孩子，兰斯伯里，里面很好，贝基博士。
It's all-
这都是——
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: I really think that the modern parenting canon is really rich.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：我真的认为现代育儿经典非常丰富。
Lenny: Amazing, so much good content.
Lenny：太棒了，这么多好内容。
This episode is brought to you by Explo, a game-changer for customer-facing analytics and data reporting.
本集由 Explo 为您带来，Explo 是面向客户的分析和数据报告的游戏规则改变者。
Are your users craving more dashboards, reports, and analytics within your product?
您的用户是否渴望在您的产品中提供更多仪表板、报告和分析？
Are you tired of trying to build it yourself?
您是否厌倦了尝试自己构建它？
Lenny: As a product leader, you probably have these requests on your roadmap, but the struggle to prioritize them is real.
Lenny：作为产品负责人，您的路线图上可能有这些要求，但确定它们的优先级的困难是真实存在的。
Building analytics from scratch can be time-consuming, expensive, and a really challenging process.
从头开始构建分析可能非常耗时、昂贵，而且是一个非常具有挑战性的过程。
Enter Explo.
输入爆炸。
Explo is a fully white-labeled embedded analytics solution designed entirely with your user in mind.
Explo 是一款完全白标的嵌入式分析解决方案，其设计完全考虑到您的用户。
Getting started is easy.
入门很容易。
Explo connects to any relational database or warehouse, and with its low-code functionality, you can build and style dashboards in minutes.
Explo 连接到任何关系数据库或仓库，凭借其低代码功能，您可以在几分钟内构建仪表板并设计仪表板样式。
Lenny: Once you're ready, simply embed the dashboard or report into your application with a tiny code snippet.
Lenny：准备好后，只需使用一小段代码将仪表板或报告嵌入到您的应用程序中即可。
The best part, your end-users can use Explo's AI features for their own report and dashboard generation, eliminating customer data requests for your support team.
最好的部分是，您的最终用户可以使用 Explo 的 AI 功能来生成自己的报告和仪表板，从而消除对支持团队的客户数据请求。
Build and embed a fully white-labeled analytics experience in days.
在几天内构建并嵌入完全白标的分析体验。
Try it for free at explo.co/lenny.
请访问 explo.co/lenny 免费试用。
That's E-X-P-L-O dot C-O slash Lenny.
这是 E-X-P-L-O 点 C-O 斜线 Lenny。
Lenny: Okay.
莱尼：好的。
You mentioned this gadget and these cameras you like to play with.
您提到了您喜欢玩的这个小工具和这些相机。
Let's talk about the Vision Pro and VR headsets.
我们来谈谈Vision Pro和VR耳机。
Have you tried the Vision Pro?
您尝试过 Vision Pro 吗？
Thoughts?
想法？
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Actually, Mark and I tried it together and I want to say, first of all, when the headset came out, we breathed a little sigh of relief because the stuff inside of it didn't represent a fundamental breakthrough.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：实际上，Mark 和我一起尝试过，我想说，首先，当耳机问世时，我们松了一口气，因为它里面的东西并不代表着根本性的突破。
Everything inside of it was something that we probably could have gone and done, with the exception of Apple silicon, which is a marvel, but it's worth nothing.
它里面的所有东西我们可能都可以去做，除了苹果芯片，这是一个奇迹，但它一文不值。
Apple Silicon is like a 2X marvel when doing things like scaling display resolution is unfortunately a quadratic proposition, and so a 2X linear scaling advantage doesn't buy you as much as you might expect when you're trying to scale resolution.
不幸的是，当缩放显示分辨率是一个二次命题之类的事情时，Apple Silicon 就像 2X 奇迹一样，因此当您尝试缩放分辨率时，2X 线性缩放优势并不能为您带来预期的好处。
And so that was step one.
这就是第一步。
But we still assumed at that price point, with their legendary attention to detail and polish, they probably produced a great product.
但我们仍然认为，在这个价位上，凭借他们对细节和打磨的传奇般的关注，他们可能会生产出出色的产品。
And the line that I said actually my own podcast with Matthew Ball a week ago was, "Look, I was prepared to come to market and say we have the best value headset.
一周前，我在自己的播客中与 Matthew Ball 说过的话是：“看，我已经准备好进入市场并说我们拥有最有价值的耳机。
If you want an outstanding, best possible headset for the money, we've got it.
如果您想要一款物超所值的出色耳机，我们可以满足您的需求。
It's the Quest 3."
这是《探索 3》。”
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And I was so thrilled when I tried the AVP next to Mark, we were like, "No, we think we have the actual best headset." Now, we're not saying it's the best at all things.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：当我在 Mark 旁边尝试 AVP 时，我非常兴奋，我们说，“不，我们认为我们拥有真正最好的耳机。”现在，我们并不是说它是最好的。
If you're sitting still and watching a movie a high-res movie, Apple Vision Pro is really great.
如果您安静地坐着看电影，一部高分辨率电影，Apple Vision Pro 真的很棒。
It's really great.
真的很棒。
The resolution shines.
决议闪闪发光。
The way they've tuned the pass-through shines if you're stationary and looking straight ahead.
如果你静止不动并直视前方，他们调整直通的方式就会闪闪发光。
And they've done some really nice things with the UI.
他们在用户界面上做了一些非常好的事情。
It's one of these things that we do get annoyed about, a mile aside, we get a little bit annoyed about as product people.
这是我们确实感到恼火的事情之一，一英里之外，我们作为产品人员也有点恼火。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: I know that this happens to all of us.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：我知道这发生在我们所有人身上。
It happens to Apple, happens to Google, happens to us.
它发生在苹果身上，发生在谷歌身上，发生在我们身上。
We have a bunch of internal things we've been playing with, which will at some point ship and we will be accused of having stolen them when we actually did not steal them.
我们有很多我们一直在玩的内部东西，这些东西会在某个时候发货，当我们实际上没有偷它们时，我们会被指控偷了它们。
If you want, you can go see my Quora answer on the history of the like button where this happened previously, where we had built the like button internally before it was launched elsewhere.
如果你愿意，你可以去看看我在 Quora 上关于“点赞”按钮历史的回答，以前发生过这种情况，我们在其他地方推出之前已经在内部构建了“点赞”按钮。
Anyways, it's a whole thing.
无论如何，这是一个整体。
This happens in our industry a lot, and I really shouldn't care as much.
这种情况在我们这个行业经常发生，我真的不应该太在意。
It's a little bit of my ego peeking through, which I should control and tamp down, if I'm being responsible.
这是我的一点自我意识的暴露，如果我负责任的话，我应该控制并压制它。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: The beautiful UI polishes, they did a tremendous job with eye tracking.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：漂亮的 UI 润色，他们在眼动追踪方面做得非常出色。
One of the things that's interesting about the eye tracking is, to do it the way they've done it, that's why you have to have the prescription insert, so it doesn't support your glasses.
眼球追踪的有趣之处之一是，按照他们的方式进行，这就是为什么你必须插入处方，所以它不支持你的眼镜。
You have to get prescription inserts.
您必须获得处方说明书。
They're expensive.
它们很贵。
And they can shoot the cameras that track your eyes through the lens as well as the light around it.
他们可以拍摄通过镜头跟踪你的眼睛的摄像机以及周围的光线。
Ours go from the side on the Quest Pro, and that allows you to wear corrective lenses.
我们的 Quest Pro 是从侧面安装的，这样您就可以佩戴矫正镜片。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And so different choices like that have trade-offs, but it's still cool.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：像这样的不同选择需要权衡，但它仍然很酷。
It's great that they got that in there.
很高兴他们把它放在那里。
At the same time, our hand tracking is better.
同时，我们的手部追踪也更好。
Obviously, the app library we knew was going to be better.
显然，我们知道的应用程序库会变得更好。
That's not totally fair to them.
这对他们来说并不完全公平。
They've just launched and they have small volume still, but I just find the comfort...
他们刚刚推出，音量仍然很小，但我只是找到了安慰......
The thing that really got me the most, the field of view is really small on the Apple Vision Pro.
最让我感动的是 Apple Vision Pro 的视野非常小。
And some people are characterizing it incorrectly on the internet.
有些人在互联网上对它的描述是错误的。
They're doing a characterization up close to the lens.
他们正在靠近镜头进行人物塑造。
Once you factor in the eye relief, the distance between where the lenses are and your eyeball is, their field of view gets pretty narrow for almost all faces relative to ours, which I find distracting.
一旦你考虑到眼睛的距离，即镜片与眼球之间的距离，几乎所有面孔的视野都会变得非常窄，我觉得这分散了我们的注意力。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Their displays are much dimmer than ours, and I find the motion blur really distracting when I'm in mixed reality use cases.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：他们的显示器比我们的显示器暗得多，当我处于混合现实用例中时，我发现运动模糊确实分散了我的注意力。
And as I mentioned earlier in the podcast, I'm a huge mixed reality buff.
正如我之前在播客中提到的，我是一个混合现实的超级爱好者。
I'm a huge fan of that potential for exactly the same reason that they are, by the way, which I think hands and mixed reality make it feel much more accessible to more people.
我是这种潜力的超级粉丝，顺便说一句，出于同样的原因，我认为手和混合现实让更多人感觉更容易接近。
I'm pretty glad we have the controller in our set though, because it really expands what you can do.
我很高兴我们的套装中有控制器，因为它确实扩展了您的功能。
And we don't just operate our computers with just one thing.
我们不只是用一件事来操作我们的计算机。
We have a keyboard, we have a mouse, we do multiple modalities all the time.
我们有键盘，有鼠标，我们一直在进行多种模式。
I really feel like the comfort, the lack of persistence and motion blur in our pass-through, the brightness of our displays, I was like, "Oh man, if you gave me one to take, I would take Quest 3."
我真的很喜欢这种舒适感，在我们的通道中缺乏持久性和运动模糊，我们的显示器的亮度，我当时想，“哦，伙计，如果你给我一个让我选择，我会选择 Quest 3。”
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Now, people have rightly said, "That's pretty biased." Of course it is.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：现在，人们正确地说，“这是相当有偏见的。”当然是。
Go get your own opinion.
去听听你自己的意见吧。
But what kills me is most people haven't done that.
但让我丧命的是大多数人都没有这么做。
They have not tried the Quest 3.
他们还没有尝试过 Quest 3。
That's what kills me the most.
这才是最让我丧命的。
If you go and try Quest 3, ask yourself if you'd rather have seven of those, one for you and six of your best friends, or one Apple Vision Pro.
如果你去尝试 Quest 3，问问自己是否愿意拥有七台，一台给你和六位最好的朋友，还是一台 Apple Vision Pro。
I'm sure the answer isn't Quest 3 for every person.
我确信并不是每个人都能找到答案 Quest 3。
There are people for whom there are use cases that really fit their life, the Apple Vision Pro, I'm cool with it.
对于有些人来说，有真正适合他们生活的用例，Apple Vision Pro，我对此很满意。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: But people don't even know that the Quest 3, you can do Remote Desktop.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：但人们甚至不知道 Quest 3 可以进行远程桌面。
You can do it both through an app called Remote Desktop, which is very popular, or you can go into workrooms and you can have three monitors surrounding you streamed from your machine.
您可以通过一个名为“远程桌面”的应用程序来完成此操作，该应用程序非常流行，或者您可以进入工作室，您周围的三个显示器可以从您的计算机进行流式传输。
I think some of this is just people have not even done the work.
我认为其中一些只是人们还没有完成工作。
They haven't even tried it.
他们甚至都没有尝试过。
I welcome all of you who think I'm biased to prove one way or the other what you think, but don't do it without putting the Quest 3 on and giving it through its paces, because it's a pretty great device.
我欢迎所有认为我偏向于以某种方式证明你的想法的人，但在没有戴上 Quest 3 并测试它的情况下不要这么做，因为它是一款非常棒的设备。
And you can do a lot with $3,000 extra dollars.
额外 3,000 美元您可以做很多事情。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: How did they get away with that, by the way?
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：顺便问一下，他们是怎么逃脱惩罚的？
We launched a headset that was $1,299 and people lost their minds about it.
我们推出了一款售价 1,299 美元的耳机，人们对它失去了理智。
They're like, "Ah, $3,500, it's fine.
他们会说，“啊，3,500 美元，没关系。
This is fine.
这很好。
No one cares." I don't know.
没有人关心。”我不知道。
Fairness is too much to ask, and I don't care about that.
公平要求太高了，我不在乎。
Apple has earned the great brand that they've built.
苹果赢得了他们所建立的伟大品牌。
They truly have.
他们确实有。
I think it's tremendous.
我认为这是巨大的。
I certainly celebrate a large number of Apple product.
我当然庆祝大量的苹果产品。
I'm a huge fan of their work.
我是他们作品的超级粉丝。
I'm a huge fan of what they do.
我非常喜欢他们所做的事情。
That's probably why I expected more from the AVP.
这可能就是为什么我对 AVP 抱有更高的期望。
Lenny: Well, I'll show you my favorite AR device, which is these Ray-Bans.
莱尼：好吧，我会向你展示我最喜欢的 AR 设备，那就是雷朋眼镜。
I actually bought them.
我实际上买了它们。
Lenny: Here, I'll put them on it.
莱尼： 在这里，我会把它们放上去。
Here, what I'm going to do is I'm going to record.
在这里，我要做的就是记录。
I didn't tell you I was going to do this.
我没有告诉你我要这么做。
I'm going to record this as we're talking.
我将在我们谈话时记录下来。
Look at this.
看看这个。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: I like that.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：我喜欢这个。
They look so good on you too.
他们看起来对你也很好。
This is a good fit.
这是一个很好的选择。
Lenny: My mother-in-law's like, "You look so sophisticated.
莱尼：我婆婆说，“你看起来很老练。
You look really smart with these on." And we bought these actually to film our kids, or our kid, instead of having Cameron's face.
穿上这些，你看起来真的很聪明。”我们买这些实际上是为了拍摄我们的孩子，或者我们的孩子，而不是卡梅隆的脸。
And it's been awesome.
这太棒了。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: It's really the best.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：这确实是最好的。
It is so hard to look at a phone screen and have the real thing be in between you.
看着手机屏幕而让真实的东西存在于你们之间是非常困难的。
No, the glass is the way to do it.
不，玻璃就是做到这一点的方法。
Lenny: Look at this, my new look.
莱尼：看看这个，我的新造型。
I'm just going to have glasses on all the time.
我只会一直戴着眼镜。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: We got to get you the multimodal.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：我们必须为您提供多式联运。
I've been playing with that since December, where you can use the camera to ask a Meta AI assistant about things.
自 12 月以来我一直在玩这个，你可以使用相机向 Meta AI 助手询问一些事情。
It's really good.
真的很好。
I was in a ski village recently with my family and I had them on.
最近我和家人一起去滑雪村，我穿上了它们。
I'm just like, "Hey, take a look.
我只是想，“嘿，看看。
Tell what you see." And I had found a sign and it gave me directions.
告诉你你看到了什么。”我找到了一个标志，它给了我方向。
"Hey, the bathrooms are down those stairs to the right.
“嘿，浴室就在楼梯的右边。
Do you want food?
你想要食物吗？
It's over to the right." It couldn't tell what village I was in, but it was like, "You're in a ski village somewhere.
已经到右边了。”它无法判断我在哪个村庄，但它就像是，“你在某个滑雪村。
Here's the amenities." And I was like, "Wow." There's something real magical here.
这里有便利设施。”我当时想，“哇。”这里确实有一些神奇的东西。
Lenny: I feel like I need this for my podcasting interview so I could just have a little voice tell me questions to be asking and where I'm at.
莱尼：我觉得我的播客采访需要这个，这样我就可以有一个小声音告诉我要问的问题以及我在哪里。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Okay, I'm going to cheat on this one and say, obviously we've been talking for a while, but playing with glasses that have full AR capabilities, and we've got one that has rumored to be coming internally soon, so heavily rumored in fact that you might even say it's almost been confirmed.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：好吧，我要在这个问题上作弊并说，显然我们已经讨论了一段时间了，但是我们正在使用具有完整 AR 功能的眼镜，而且我们有传言称很快就会在内部推出一款眼镜，事实上传闻如此之多，你甚至可以说它几乎已经得到证实。
And what's been really fun is being able to play with these time machines, really, in terms of what they are.
真正有趣的是能够玩这些时间机器，真的，就它们本身而言。
It's amazing technology.
这是一项了不起的技术。
People were giving us speeches, big company-wide speeches, and had all their notes on the glasses.
人们给我们做演讲，全公司范围内的大型演讲，他们所有的笔记都写在眼镜上。
And they could control the slides just using a gesture.
他们只需使用手势即可控制幻灯片。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: There's exciting things afoot.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：令人兴奋的事情正在发生。
The future's looking pretty bright.
未来看起来相当光明。
Lenny: Something that I wanted to touch on, which is when Mark put out this whole video of, "Here's what I think of Apple Vision Pro versus the Quest," a lot of people are just like, "Oh man, because he's putting out this video, he must be so afraid of what's happening and it's not the right move." What went into thinking?
Lenny：我想谈一谈，当 Mark 发布整个视频时，“这就是我对 Apple Vision Pro 与 Quest 的看法”，很多人都说，“天哪，因为他发布了这段视频，所以他一定非常害怕正在发生的事情，这不是正确的举动。”想到了什么？
Was there strategic thinking there?
那里有战略思维吗？
Was it just him, "Here's what I think?"
只有他一个人会说“这就是我的想法吗？”
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: This guy does about the modern era.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：这个人关注的是现代时代。
Everyone's in their Meta head about everything.
每个人都在元头脑中思考一切。
Everything's a four-dimensional chess.
一切都是四维棋。
That was just what Mark thought of the thing.
马克就是这么想的。
That's what he thought about it.
他就是这么想的。
I think he wanted to make sure people remembered, hey, Quest 3 is literally a better device, and people haven't even tried it.
我认为他想确保人们记住，嘿，Quest 3 确实是一个更好的设备，而人们甚至还没有尝试过。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And so we're not always playing four-dimensional chess over here.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：所以我们并不总是在这里下四维国际象棋。
Sometimes we're just like, "Here's a thing that I believe is true.
有时我们会想，“我相信这是真的。
I'm going to say it out loud with my mouth." That's what he did.
我要用嘴大声说出来。”他就是这么做的。
It's not that hard.
这并不难。
When I do it, everyone expects it because of my persona or brand or whatever the thing is.
当我这样做时，每个人都会因为我的角色或品牌或其他什么而期待它。
I guess people are surprised when a CEO does it.
我想当首席执行官这样做时，人们会感到惊讶。
All right, I get that.
好吧，我明白了。
That's cool.
这很酷。
There's other sets of societal expectations there.
还有其他一些社会期望。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And we're all familiar with Apple putting the Welcome IBM ad in the New York Times, and then Slack doing the same thing with Microsoft and the Ballmer iPhone comments.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：我们都熟悉 Apple 在《纽约时报》上投放欢迎 IBM 广告，然后 Slack 对 Microsoft 和鲍尔默 iPhone 评论做了同样的事情。
None of those were true discussions of the technical merits of a product.
这些都不是对产品技术优点的真正讨论。
Those were all just big, rally the troops gestures.
这些都是大举集结军队的姿态。
This is not that.
这不是那个。
Mark is deep.
马克很深。
He's an expert in this stuff.
他是这方面的专家。
I'm an expert in this stuff.
我是这方面的专家。
I feel great about our choices.
我对我们的选择感觉很好。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: By the way, when I've used it, I could get myself completely into the head of the person who designed it.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：顺便说一句，当我使用它时，我可以完全融入设计它的人的头脑中。
I can tell you from using it what instructions they were given, that team was given.
我可以通过使用它告诉你他们、那个团队得到了什么指示。
I can tell you what they were optimizing for.
我可以告诉你他们优化的目的是什么。
I can tell you what constraints they were under.
我可以告诉你他们受到什么限制。
By all the choices they made, I can tell you all those things and I understand it coheres in that way.
通过他们所做的所有选择，我可以告诉你所有这些事情，并且我理解它们是这样连贯的。
We made different choices.
我们做出了不同的选择。
It shouldn't surprise anyone.
这不应该让任何人感到惊讶。
We like our choices better.
我们更喜欢我们的选择。
We could have made those choices.
我们本可以做出这些选择。
We didn't make those choices.
我们没有做出这些选择。
We made these other choices.
我们做出了其他选择。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And so for me, the weight, the wire, which just always brushes against my ear, the pocketable thing, I get it.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：对我来说，重量、电线、总是擦着我的耳朵、可放在口袋里的东西，我明白了。
That's not what I would've done, and I know that because I had the chance to do it and I chose not to.
那不是我会做的事，我知道这一点，因为我有机会这样做，但我选择不这样做。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't know why people are surprised.
我不知道为什么人们会感到惊讶。
This wasn't some big, savvy strategic move.
这不是什么重大的、精明的战略举措。
This was just, Mark's got a chance to use it.
这只是，马克有机会使用它。
He's like, "Oh man, I think we should tell people what the real story is here." And we did.
他说，“天啊，我想我们应该告诉人们这里的真实故事是什么。”我们做到了。
Lenny: I love that insight.
莱尼：我喜欢这种洞察力。
And I know a lot of people watching are like, "Oh, shit, he's right.
我知道很多观看的人都会说，“哦，糟糕，他是对的。
Wow.
哇。
I didn't think of it that way." And so I think it had a lot of that impact.
我没有那样想。”所以我认为它产生了很大的影响。
Lenny: I want to zoom out a little bit and talk about Meta's journey over the past couple years.
Lenny：我想稍微讨论一下 Meta 在过去几年的历程。
It feels like there is a huge downturn in public perception of Meta and the stock price, and then over the past couple of years there's been a huge turnaround.
感觉公众对 Meta 和股价的看法大幅下滑，但在过去几年里出现了巨大的转变。
And it feels like there's always a lot to learn from these periods.
感觉总是能从这些时期学到很多东西。
Just as an example of the stock price, I was just looking at it, it was down to $80-ish, and now today it's $487.
举个股价的例子，我刚才看了一下，它跌到了 80 美元左右，现在是 487 美元。
Lenny: I'm curious just what you've learned from going through that downturn and turnaround.
莱尼：我很好奇你从那次低迷和转变中学到了什么。
And I know it's still in progress, but just what have you learned from that journey?
我知道它仍在进行中，但您从这次旅程中学到了什么？
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Yeah.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：是的。
Well, there's a lot to take away, I got to tell you.
好吧，我必须告诉你，有很多东西要带走。
I think we had the largest single day stock drop in history, followed 18 months later by this largest single day gain in stock market history.
我认为我们经历了历史上最大的单日股市跌幅，18 个月后又出现了股市历史上最大的单日涨幅。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: As the legendary Lou Holtz said, " You're never as good as they say you are when you're winning, and you're never as bad as they say you are when you're losing." Mark has always brought that quote out to guide us internally to try to insulate ourselves a little bit from the vagaries of external opinion.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：正如传奇人物卢·霍尔茨所说，“当你获胜时，你永远不会像他们所说的那么好，当你失败时，你永远不会像他们所说的那么糟糕。”马克总是引用这句话来指导我们内部，尽量让自己免受外部舆论的影响。
And that's not just true with stock prices.
这不仅适用于股票价格。
That's true with media and press.
媒体和报刊也是如此。
It's true across a lot of things.
在很多事情上都是如此。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: One of the things I told my team, and I still have to repeat it to them, is, "One of the things that's hard to remember when you're in it is that you know more than the critics do.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：我告诉我的团队的一件事是，我仍然必须向他们重复，“当你身处其中时，很难记住的一件事是你比批评者知道的更多。
You know more than the analysts in the marketplace do.
您比市场上的分析师了解更多。
You know more than the media does.
你比媒体知道的还多。
You know more than the podcasters do.
你比播客知道的还多。
You know more than the Twitter does.
你比 Twitter 知道的还多。
You know more about what's real and substantial of value about our company than they do.
您比他们更了解我们公司的真实和实质性价值。
That doesn't mean ignore them, because they have a different perspective and you need to understand it.
这并不意味着忽略他们，因为他们有不同的观点，你需要理解它们。
Even if the totality is less than what you know, it may contain parts that you do not know." I'm a huge fan, I read the criticism of everything, and I read it very carefully, looking out for confirmation bias, looking out for things that I might be inclined to resist but are maybe true.
即使整体少于你所知道的，它也可能包含你不知道的部分。”我是一个超级粉丝，我阅读了所有的批评，而且我非常仔细地阅读，寻找确认偏见，寻找我可能倾向于抵制但可能是真实的事情。
I invite all critique, but I also don't accept the critique blindly.
我欢迎所有批评，但我也不盲目接受批评。
I don't just say, "Yes, this is obviously true."
我不会只是说：“是的，这显然是真的。”
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Gell-Mann Amnesia is a great concept for everyone to understand.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：盖尔曼失忆症是一个每个人都可以理解的伟大概念。
Gell-Mann Amnesia is this property where you'll read a newspaper article, let's say newspaper, why not, about a thing about which you are an expert, and you'll be baffled because here is an article that is not just wrong, it's inverted causality.
盖尔曼失忆症就是这样一种性质，你会读到一篇报纸文章，比如说报纸，为什么不呢，关于你是专家的事情，你会感到困惑，因为这篇文章不仅是错误的，而且是倒置的因果关系。
Michael Crichton, I'll steal Michael Crichton's quote on this, "It's a wet sidewalks make rain story." And you'll be like, "What a terrible, bizarre story."
迈克尔·克莱顿（Michael Crichton），我要借用迈克尔·克莱顿（Michael Crichton）的一句话，“这是一个潮湿的人行道下雨的故事。”你会说，“这是一个多么可怕、奇怪的故事啊。”
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And then you will turn the page of the newspaper and it will be another article about a topic about which you know nothing, and you will read it as if it is the gospel truth.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：然后你翻过报纸，这将是另一篇关于你一无所知的话题的文章，你会读它，就好像它是福音真理一样。
You'll figure it's, "Oh, no, look at this information about this foreign situation." Like I said, perfectly true.
你会认为，“哦，不，看看有关国外局势的信息。”就像我说的，完全正确。
We should be smarter than that.
我们应该比那更聪明。
And so does that mean you don't read the thing?
那么这是否意味着你没有读过这篇文章？
No, you read it.
不，你读过。
You just read everything with that perspective of, "Wait a second, this is another point of view.
你只是用这样的观点来阅读所有内容：“等一下，这是另一种观点。
And how do I integrate that into a whole perspective that I can have and be informed about?"
我如何将其整合到我可以拥有并了解的整体视角中？”
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: The first, the macro thing is taking the long view, realizing that when you're in the dumps, it's not as bad as you think, when you're at the top, it's not as good as you think.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：首先，宏观的事情是着眼长远，意识到当你处于低谷时，事情并不像你想象的那么糟糕，当你处于巅峰时，事情也不像你想象的那么好。
It's somewhere in between at all times.
它始终处于两者之间。
The second thing is communication is the job.
第二件事是沟通，就是工作。
We really did not communicate effectively, I think, with the market around our future investments.
我认为，我们确实没有围绕我们未来的投资与市场进行有效的沟通。
And listen, we've had two 10-year long huge investment areas.
听着，我们有两个长达 10 年的巨大投资领域。
One has been AI, one has been reality labs.
一种是人工智能，一种是现实实验室。
And AI's looking pretty good today.
如今人工智能看起来相当不错。
I can't think we can all agree with Lama 2, with Fair, the breakthroughs that we've had.
我不认为我们都能同意 Lama 2、Fair 以及我们所取得的突破。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: People don't notice that Fair, our AI research lab, is the second most cited research lab in AI behind Google.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：人们没有注意到我们的人工智能研究实验室 Fair 是仅次于谷歌的第二大人工智能研究实验室。
We've been doing this work.
我们一直在做这项工作。
We didn't come here casually.
我们来到这里可不是随便的。
We've been doing it, and so that's looking pretty good.
我们一直在这样做，所以看起来相当不错。
I don't think we did enough to explain those best to people.
我认为我们在向人们解释这些方面做得还不够。
Previously, the core business was going strong enough and they were willing to ignore them.
以前，核心业务足够强大，他们愿意忽略它们。
And with the old Warren Buffett quote, "It's only when the tide goes out, we see who's not wearing swimming trunks." And so when the tide went out, when you have the Ukraine war and an interest rate hike and recessions, now everyone's scrambling for that incremental dollar and they're like, "Go get rid of this stuff."
正如沃伦·巴菲特的那句老话：“只有当潮水退去时，我们才能看到谁没有穿泳裤。”因此，当潮流退去时，当乌克兰战争、加息和经济衰退时，现在每个人都在争夺增量美元，他们会说，“摆脱这些东西吧。”
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And we had to tell the company, "You don't want to work at a company that, when times are tough, kills all future growth and just shores up in the core business." That's a company that's just committing itself to dying at some point, a little later than expected, but dying at some point.
安德鲁·‘博兹’·博斯沃思：我们必须告诉公司，“你不想在一家在困难时期扼杀所有未来增长、只支持核心业务的公司工作。”这家公司只是承诺在某个时候消亡，比预期晚一点，但在某个时候就会消亡。
You want to work at a company that has a balanced portfolio of investments, which we had.
你想在一家拥有平衡投资组合的公司工作，我们也拥有这样的投资组合。
We didn't explain that well, and so we spent that time explaining that to the market, to the press, to everybody.
我们没有很好地解释，所以我们花了时间向市场、向媒体、向每个人解释这一点。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And now, I think as people understand the size of it and the scope of it, and of course it helps that the core business has overcome its challenges there from ATT and the other kinds of stuff, it's looking pretty good.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：现在，我认为，随着人们了解它的规模和范围，当然，它有助于核心业务克服来自 ATT 和其他类型业务的挑战，它看起来相当不错。
I do think one part is, as an internal person, really moderating your attachment to the external narratives and swings, that's super important.
我确实认为，作为一个内在的人，真正要调节你对外部叙事和波动的依恋，这是非常重要的。
And you do that based on understanding your own expertise.
您可以根据自己的专业知识来做到这一点。
And the second part is understanding why is there a delta.
第二部分是理解为什么会有三角洲。
What is there?
那里有什么？
And grab that.
抓住那个。
It's usually communication.
通常是沟通。
Lenny: There's also a big flattening of the org.
莱尼：组织结构也发生了很大的扁平化。
This was something a lot of people talked about, where managers became ICs.
这是很多人谈论的话题，管理者变成了 IC。
Is there anything more there that you've learned of just how to adjust the org to be more efficient?
关于如何调整组织以提高效率，您还学到了什么吗？
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Of course, and I should have included that in the first section.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：当然，我应该将其包含在第一部分中。
I was a bit eager to wrap it up elegantly in the two.
我有点渴望将它优雅地包裹在两者中。
But you're right.
但你是对的。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: We made significant shifts in how we operated the business, which was super painful.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：我们对业务运营方式进行了重大转变，这是非常痛苦的。
And listen, this goes back to the boom times of COVID, when it looked like there was a real lasting secular shift in things like e-commerce and in working remotely and these tool sits, which are exactly what we build, and it's primed us.
听着，这可以追溯到新冠疫情的繁荣时期，当时电子商务、远程工作等领域似乎发生了真正持久的长期转变，而这些工具正是我们所构建的，它为我们做好了准备。
And so we built up a huge workforce to pursue those opportunities.
因此，我们建立了庞大的员工队伍来寻求这些机会。
We still believe in those opportunities, but they're back on their original timeline.
我们仍然相信这些机会，但它们又回到了原来的时间表。
And actually, literally, if you look at a bunch of graphs that we have internally, it's literally the COVID boom and then, not bust really, but as it receded, everything's back on its original trajectory.
事实上，从字面上看，如果你看一下我们内部的一堆图表，你会发现，这确实是新冠疫情的繁荣，然后，并不是真正的萧条，而是随着它的消退，一切都回到了原来的轨道。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: We didn't lose ground or lose time, but the pull forward didn't happen.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：我们没有失势或浪费时间，但前进并没有发生。
Well, that means your economics don't make any sense anymore.
好吧，这意味着你的经济学不再有任何意义了。
Now, you made a bunch of investments that are going to yield too distant in the future, and getting there faster isn't going to help you and you're carrying a much extra cost.
现在，你进行了一系列投资，这些投资在未来的回报太遥远了，更快地实现目标对你没有帮助，而且你还要承担很多额外的成本。
That sucks, man.
太糟糕了，伙计。
It sucks.
太糟糕了。
And we don't feel great about it.
我们对此感觉不太好。
We really don't.
我们真的不知道。
It's a business, it's awful, and it happens.
这是一门生意，这很糟糕，而且它发生了。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: I do think one thing that was interesting about that time was, for those of us who grew up and saw the .com boom firsthand, I was born and raised in the valley, so that was all around me when I was graduating high school and going to college, and then in the 2008 major recession on the housing crash and on the market and all that stuff.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：我确实认为那段时间有趣的一件事是，对于我们这些成长起来并亲眼目睹 .com 繁荣的人来说，我是在山谷中出生和长大的，所以当我高中毕业和上大学时，然后在 2008 年房地产崩盘和市场等造成的严重衰退中，这一切都在我周围。
Now, let's imagine you graduated college in 2009-
现在，让我们想象一下你 2009 年大学毕业 -
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: ...
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：……
all that stuff.
所有这些东西。
Now let's imagine you graduated college in 2009 and got a job.
现在，假设您于 2009 年大学毕业并找到了工作。
Well shoot, you're 15 years in your career, you could be a director and you've never seen a downturn.
好吧，你的职业生涯已经 15 年了，你可以成为一名导演，而且你从未经历过低迷。
I think we also had, in addition to what was very unfortunately conventional mis-forecasting in the business that caused us to over hire, that we had to correct for.
我认为，除了非常不幸的业务中传统的错误预测导致我们过度雇用之外，我们还必须纠正这一点。
You also had a workforce that was just not at all of a mentality that this could ever happen.
你还拥有一支根本不相信这种情况可能发生的员工队伍。
This felt like it was an act of God when in fact it's like a cyclical nature of all businesses that this will happen at some time and you hope it doesn't and you wish it didn't, but you have to deal with it.
这感觉就像是上帝的行为，但事实上，这就像所有企业的周期性一样，这种情况会在某个时候发生，你希望它不会发生，你也希望它不会发生，但你必须处理它。
And so I think we have a bit of a tough storm there for the whole industry and we're still feeling it.
因此，我认为整个行业都面临着一场严峻的风暴，而且我们仍然能感受到它。
I think we're still feeling it.
我想我们仍然有这种感觉。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Certainly we're happy at Meta to be beyond that point and we're growing again and executing at a stable rate and feeling really good about that, but quite a few of our other companies in the industry.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：当然，我们很高兴 Meta 能够超越这一点，我们再次增长并以稳定的速度执行，对此感觉非常好，但我们行业中的其他公司也有很多。
And it's a very uncertain time for engineers, for PMs, for designers, for everyone and all the support functions around them.
对于工程师、产品经理、设计师、每个人和他们周围的所有支持职能部门来说，这是一个非常不确定的时期。
I'm super sympathetic for that.
我对此非常同情。
I think obviously the mis-forecasting that happened inside of Meta's walls happened everywhere and now that you have, especially with higher interest rates and cash isn't as cheap, runways are tighter.
我认为显然 Meta 内部发生的错误预测随处可见，尤其是在利率较高且现金不那么便宜的情况下，跑道变得更加紧张。
People are just making those pragmatic calls.
人们只是做出这些务实的呼吁。
I think we'll rally back from this.
我想我们会从这件事中振作起来。
I think this is a normal thing that happens to industries, but it doesn't reduce my sympathy and empathy for those who have been affected by it or who live in fear of it.
我认为这是行业中发生的正常事情，但这并没有减少我对那些受其影响或生活在恐惧之中的人的同情和同理心。
Lenny: I was talking to a friend who works at Meta and I was asking them what it's like to work at Meta and she was just like, "It's intense, and it used to be more chill.
Lenny：我正在和一位在 Meta 工作的朋友聊天，我问他们在 Meta 工作感觉如何，她的回答是：“工作很紧张，而且以前比较冷淡。
There were people that were coasting here and there," and now she's like, "No, all those people are gone now.
有些人到处都是，”现在她说，“不，所有这些人现在都走了。
It's just only the intense people left and we're working really hard." Does that bring up anything?
只剩下那些热情的人了，我们正在努力工作。”这会带来什么吗？
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Yeah.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：是的。
I don't want to comment on people who left.
我不想对离开的人发表任何评论。
People left Meta for all kinds of different reasons and likewise role elimination happened in many cases because we just decided not to do this work at this point.
人们出于各种不同的原因离开 Meta，同样在很多情况下也发生了角色消除，因为我们只是决定此时不做这项工作。
We were going to do it two years from now and don't need to carry a team to do it.
我们打算在两年后做这件事，并且不需要带领团队来做这件事。
I think it's really hard to generalize because each of these is a specific person with a specific life and a story that is rich and deserves to be told.
我认为这真的很难一概而论，因为每个人都是一个特定的人，有着特定的生活，都有一个丰富且值得讲述的故事。
But I do think that if there was somebody coasting and you as a manager have to make tough calls on who you're bringing in which way you're going to bias my profound suspicion, and again, I don't know your friend who you spoke with, my profound suspicion is that person's probably already working hard.
但我确实认为，如果有人随波逐流，而你作为经理必须对你要引进的人做出艰难的决定，你就会以这种方式偏向我的深刻怀疑，再说一遍，我不认识你和你交谈过的朋友，我深刻的怀疑是那个人可能已经在努力工作了。
You know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
That person's already probably working hard.
那个人可能已经在努力工作了。
I don't think we changed how hard any individual worked.
我不认为我们改变了任何人工作的努力程度。
I really don't believe that.
我真的不相信。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: I do think there was a selection bias as to what was going to happen, and I think that's probably what you saw play.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：我确实认为对于将要发生的事情存在选择偏差，我认为这可能就是你所看到的情况。
In fact, if there is a generality that can be found.
其实如果有一个共性是可以找到的。
Lenny: Maybe as a last question, I have this segment where I call Failure Corner where I ask people to share a failure of their career and what they learned from that experience.
莱尼：也许作为最后一个问题，我将这个部分称为“失败角”，我要求人们分享他们职业生涯的失败以及他们从这次经历中学到的东西。
Is there something that comes to mind?
有什么想到的吗？
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: I've failed tons of times.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：我失败过很多次。
I've built products that nobody used.
我制造了没人使用的产品。
I've built technical architectures that didn't scale.
我构建了无法扩展的技术架构。
I've failed all kinds of times.
我已经失败过很多次了。
I don't regret most of those.
我对其中的大多数并不后悔。
Almost every one of those I learned from.
几乎每一位我都从中学到了东西。
It was a stop on the path to a better solution or it was a recognition that this thing wasn't going to work ever, which is its own kind of a gift.
这是通往更好解决方案道路上的一个停留，或者是认识到这个东西永远不会起作用，这本身就是一种礼物。
All the failures that I regret, that I take seriously are personal failures where I affected a person in a way that I'm not proud of, maybe wasn't proud of the time because I wasn't in control of my own emotions or mood.
所有我后悔的、我认真对待的失败都是个人的失败，我以一种我不引以为傲的方式影响了一个人，也许不为当时感到自豪，因为我无法控制自己的情绪或情绪。
I was feeling fearful, I was feeling scared, and there's a bunch of these one or two that stand out that I don't feel comfortable sharing because the person affected, I think would prefer I didn't share.
我感到害怕，我感到害怕，其中有一两个很突出，我不愿意分享，因为受影响的人，我认为我宁愿不分享。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: I'll share one that was...
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：我将分享一个......
I think the person's and I are tight now.
我想我和这个人现在关系很紧张。
We have this really silly discussion.
我们进行了这个非常愚蠢的讨论。
I remember it so vividly.
我记得那么清楚。
In the early days of client server architectures, which Facebook obviously is a website, so you're calling to a server to get the webpage, but then that server is going to call the other servers to gather things and that was one of the major clients of remote procedure calls because newsfeed ranking was all done on this other set of servers that had its own special requirements and special build and how it was put together.
在早期的客户端服务器架构中，Facebook 显然是一个网站，所以你调用服务器来获取网页，但随后该服务器将调用其他服务器来收集信息，这是远程过程调用的主要客户端之一，因为新闻源排名都是在另一组服务器上完成的，这些服务器有自己的特殊要求和特殊构建以及如何组合在一起。
And so your main web server would put a call-out over a remote procedure, call to the remote server and get a response back.
因此，您的主 Web 服务器将通过远程过程发出调用，调用远程服务器并获取响应。
And we had this really janky RPC system that, I won't say who built it, but it was built and it was just a piece of garbage constantly failing.
我们有一个非常糟糕的 RPC 系统，我不会说是谁建造的，但它建成后只是一个不断失败的垃圾。
It was not robust at all.
它根本不坚固。
And one of our best engineers, Mark Sleek, built a new one called Thrift.
我们最好的工程师之一 Mark Sleek 开发了一款名为 Thrift 的新产品。
It was a great, really great RPC infrastructure.
这是一个非常棒、非常非常棒的 RPC 基础设施。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And one of my best friends, Dave Federman, one of my really good friends and a brilliant engineer, we were talking about how to do the encoding and I was like, "I want it to be binary encoding." I was like, "You should binary encoding.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：我最好的朋友之一，Dave Federman，我真正的好朋友之一，也是一位出色的工程师，我们正在讨论如何进行编码，我当时想，“我希望它是二进制编码。”我当时想，“你应该进行二进制编码。
I want it to be super efficient on the wire," because I'm storing these RPCs.
我希望它在网络上非常高效”，因为我正在存储这些 RPC。
They do two jobs for us, one of which is the active RPC, but I also store the RPCs in a log and replay them to do the work that we were doing in newsfeed ranking.
他们为我们做了两项工作，其中一项是活动 RPC，但我还将 RPC 存储在日志中并重播它们以完成我们在新闻源排名中所做的工作。
That's how it was done back in the day.
当年就是这样做的。
It was all kind of asynchronous offline and so I wanted to be as tight as possible.
这都是异步离线的，所以我想尽可能严格。
My memory bandwidth was very limited and memory was so expensive back then and Dave Federman was like, "No, no, no, that's short-term thinking Boz, we should be using Linux style descriptors that are plain English language.
我的内存带宽非常有限，而且当时的内存非常昂贵，戴夫·费德曼 (Dave Federman) 说：“不，不，不，这是短期思维，博兹，我们应该使用简单英语的 Linux 风格描述符。
Then you could look at the log, you can see what it is.
然后你可以查看日志，你可以看到它是什么。
It's possible memory bandwidth will get cheaper, but these logs being scrutable to development is going to be a better thing." This is nerd bait.
内存带宽可能会变得更便宜，但这些日志可供开发人员检查将是一件更好的事情。”这是书呆子的诱饵。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Those of you who have been engineers in this call, this is like Vim EMX.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：对于参与本次电话会议的工程师来说，这就像 Vim EMX。
This is nerd bait.
这是书呆子的诱饵。
This goes deep.
这很深入。
This is like a long old thing.
这就像一个很久以前的事情了。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: It's a room full of engineers at the company and the company's not that big, and so there's probably half the engineers of the company in this room.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：这是一个满是公司工程师的房间，而且公司不是那么大，所以这个房间里可能有公司一半的工程师。
I was yelling.
我大喊大叫。
Literally I'm turning red, I'm sweating.
说实话我脸都红了，出汗了。
I'm so angry at Dave Federman for countermanding my proposal and I'm the major RPC customer.
我对戴夫·费德曼 (Dave Federman) 否决我的提案感到非常生气，而且我是 RPC 的主要客户。
A couple things.
有几件事。
This is so dumb.
这太愚蠢了。
Mark Sleek just built two encoders.
Mark Sleek 刚刚构建了两个编码器。
It's not that hard.
这并不难。
You pick which encoder you want for your things.
您可以选择您想要的编码器。
That's the easiest solution ever.
这是有史以来最简单的解决方案。
Second thing is Dave was right, by the way.
顺便说一句，第二件事是戴夫是对的。
Within a year, the memory bandwidth definitely didn't matter relative to how inscrutable it was to try to get into these logs.
一年之内，相对于尝试进入这些日志的神秘程度，内存带宽绝对不重要。
I had to build a ton of extra custom software to parse the logs and understand what what's going on.
我必须构建大量额外的自定义软件来解析日志并了解发生了什么。
But also it was a case where my identity was caught up in being right.
但这也是我的身份陷入正确的情况。
And for those who don't know, identity threat is just the biggest...
对于那些不知道的人来说，身份威胁才是最大的……
Your worst behavior is always going to come out when you think you're under identity threat.
当您认为自己受到身份威胁时，您最糟糕的行为总是会显现出来。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: When you feel like some core part of how you see yourself is in question, you will react with every ounce of your fiber to defend that conception of yourself because it's so expensive to reconceptualize who you are that you defend yourself.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：当你觉得自己看待自己的某些核心部分受到质疑时，你会竭尽全力捍卫自己的观念，因为重新概念化自己的成本如此之高，以至于你要捍卫自己。
So my identity was being right.
所以我的身份是正确的。
on the wrist.
手腕上。
And it caused me to take one of my best friends, one of the best engineers I knew, a guy I literally lived with and getting a really embarrassing for me conflict, which everyone was just scratching their head like, "What is going on with Boz right now?" I looked like an unhinged crazy person.
这让我和我最好的朋友之一、我认识的最好的工程师之一、一个和我住在一起的人发生了一场让我非常尴尬的冲突，每个人都在摸不着头脑，“博兹现在怎么了？”我看起来像一个精神错乱的疯子。
I remember the room, I remember where I was standing in the room.
我记得那个房间，我记得我站在房间里的什么地方。
I remember everything about that moment and I had to go home and be like, "What the fuck was that?
我记得那一刻的一切，我必须回家然后说：“那他妈的是什么？
What happened?" I'm asking myself like, "What happened there?" And that was one of the many steps in the journey to recontextualizing what it was was not to be right and what meant to be open-minded and curious and how to engage in this competition.
发生什么事了？”我问自己，“那里发生了什么？”这是重新认识什么是不正确、什么是开放心态和好奇心以及如何参与这场竞争的旅程中的众多步骤之一。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: I was 22.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：我当时 22 岁。
I don't make excuses for it now, but I remember there was a couple other examples like that in things that were less technical and more personal that I won't share, but I remember each of them vividly and those are the real failures for me.
我现在不会为此找借口，但我记得还有几个类似的例子，这些例子的技术性和个人性较差，我不会分享，但我清楚地记得它们中的每一个，这些对我来说是真正的失败。
Lenny: I love how this story is so long ago at this point and it's still stuck with you and such an impact, I think.
莱尼：我喜欢这个很久以前的故事，但我想它仍然对你产生巨大的影响。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Oh, my god, I'll never forget that.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：哦，天哪，我永远不会忘记这一点。
It was embarrassing.
很尴尬。
And for those, that's the old quote, it's really one of the truest quotes, and I know it's cliche and sometimes cliches are cliches because they're good.
对于那些人来说，这是一句古老的引言，它确实是最真实的引言之一，我知道这是陈词滥调，有时陈词滥调之所以是陈词滥调，是因为它们很好。
It's like, "People, they don't remember what you said.
就像是，“人们，他们不记得你说过什么。
They just remember how you made them feel." That's all anyone remembers is how you made them feel, and I think in that room, I made people feel unsafe, maybe.
他们只记得你给他们带来的感受。”所有人都记得你给他们带来的感受，我想在那个房间里，我可能让人们感到不安全。
It was bad.
很糟糕。
Lenny: I like this concept of identity threat.
莱尼：我喜欢身份威胁这个概念。
They call this podcast episode identity threat.
他们将此播客剧集称为身份威胁。
Lenny: Boz, we started this episode with a billion questions.
莱尼：博兹，我们以十亿个问题开始这一集。
I have a billion and one questions now.
我现在有十亿零一个问题。
I wish we could keep going, but I know we have to wrap this up.
我希望我们能继续下去，但我知道我们必须结束这一切。
Is there anything you wanted to share or leave listeners with before we get to our very exciting lightning round?
在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您有什么想与听众分享或留给听众的吗？
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Well, in the off chance that we do end up labeling this episode, identity threat, let me give you what really was...
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：好吧，万一我们最终把这一集贴上身份威胁的标签，让我告诉你真正的情况……
I made a lot of breakthroughs with coaching, learning about the feeling inside of my own body when I was feeling that identity threat and learning techniques and tactics to reduce the likelihood I would feel it and how to deal with it when it happened and how to repair when I did, I went through all that stuff.
我在教练方面取得了很多突破，了解当我感受到身份威胁时我自己身体内部的感觉，学习技术和策略来减少我感受到它的可能性，以及当它发生时如何处理它以及当我发生时如何修复，我经历了所有这些事情。
I would say the greatest lesson I learned would come years later and it was just from observing somebody.
我想说，我学到的最重要的教训将在几年后出现，而这只是通过观察某人而获得的。
Ami Vora who was a legendary, long time came in and worked on our development platform, then worked with me on ads for a long time and then was the PM lead for WhatsApp for a long time.
Ami Vora 是一位传奇人物，长期参与我们的开发平台工作，然后与我一起从事广告工作很长一段时间，然后长期担任 WhatsApp 的 PM 负责人。
She's since gone on to do even more great things outside the company.
从那以后，她在公司之外做了更多伟大的事情。
Working with her, it was like watching an alien because her and I were so different in our approach and she approached...
和她一起工作，就像看着一个外星人，因为她和我的方法非常不同，而她接近......
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: She could have the most profound disagreement with somebody in the world and they would say the thing that she thought was not just wrong, but crazy wrong and she would respond.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：她可能与世界上某人有最深刻的分歧，他们会说她认为不仅是错误的，而且是疯狂的错误，而她会做出回应。
She would say, "Fascinating.
她会说：“令人着迷。
You have to tell me more about why you think that." And I can't do it justice, she meant it from the core of her being.
你必须告诉我更多关于你为什么这么想的原因。”我无法公正地说，她是从内心深处说出来的。
She saw this schism between her and that person and it could have been personal, it could have been professional, it could have been anything.
她看到了她和那个人之间的这种分歧，这可能是个人的，也可能是职业的，也可能是任何事情。
She saw this schism and how they saw the world and how she saw the world and rather than reacting as if it was a threat that somebody saw it differently or rather than reacting afraid that maybe she was wrong and had done things wrong before, she reacted with the most genuine and profound curiosity.
她看到了这种分裂，看到了他们如何看待世界，以及她如何看待世界，她的反应不是好像这是有人以不同的方式看待它的威胁，也不是担心她可能错了并且以前做过错事，她以最真诚和最深刻的好奇心做出反应。
I just watched it absolutely tear down walls between points of view.
我只是看着它完全拆除了观点之间的墙壁。
People felt immediately her genuine heartfelt curiosity and would lean in and that would cause them to be open-minded.
人们立即感受到她发自内心的好奇心，并会倾向于她，这会让他们思想开放。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And if she was right, which by the way she usually was, then they would leave being like, "Oh, okay, I was wrong about that," but she also would change her mind and that was the key.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：如果她是对的，按照她通常的方式，那么他们离开时就会说，“哦，好吧，我错了，”但她也会改变主意，这就是关键。
Ever since then, I really have tried to model that.
从那时起，我就真的尝试模仿它。
When I have a strong internal clinch, I try to embrace curiosity like, "Wow, we do not see this thing the same way.
当我内心有强烈的依恋时，我会尝试拥抱好奇心，比如，“哇，我们对这件事的看法不一样。
That is fascinating.
这很有趣。
Tell me why you see that." And that can be by personal feedback.
告诉我你为什么看到这个。”这可以通过个人反馈来实现。
Someone's like, "Hey boss, I don't think you talk enough." "Wow, you don't think I talk enough?
有人会说：“嘿，老板，我觉得你说得还不够。” “哇，你觉得我说得还不够吗？
That is unexpected.
这是出乎意料的。
I would love to hear more about that because no one's ever said that to me," so I wanted to give that to anybody who might recognize this behavior in themselves.
我很想听到更多关于这一点的信息，因为从来没有人对我说过这样的话，”所以我想把这句话告诉任何可能认识到自己这种行为的人。
There's lots of things that you can do and you should do that work.
有很多事情你可以做并且你应该做这些工作。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: The work of improving yourself is always fruitful and satisfying and it pays off, as we discussed, in every aspect of your life with your family, with your friends, and professionally.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：提高自己的工作总是富有成效和令人满意的，正如我们所讨论的，它在你与家人、朋友和职业生活的各个方面都有回报。
This is one that I really thought was so great was just curiosity.
我真的觉得这很棒，只是出于好奇。
Embracing curiosity in those moments of challenge has really completely changed my life and I owe that to Ami Vora.
在那些充满挑战的时刻拥抱好奇心确实彻底改变了我的生活，这要归功于 Ami Vora。
Lenny: Wow, I love this example.
莱尼：哇，我喜欢这个例子。
It's basically an example of, "Yes, and?", but in a really...
这基本上是一个“是的，然后？”的例子，但实际上......
no one's going to be like, "Yes, and?" It's a really nice way of saying it, "Just fascinating.
没有人会说，“是的，然后？”这是一种非常好的表达方式，“太令人着迷了。
Tell me more."
告诉我更多。”
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Fascinating.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：令人着迷。
You've got to tell me why, I want to understand it.
你必须告诉我为什么，我想理解它。
Lenny: I love that.
莱尼：我喜欢这个。
Maybe that'll be the new title, fascinating.
也许这将是新标题，令人着迷。
Lenny: Anyway, with that, Boz, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
莱尼：无论如何，博兹，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny: First question, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?
莱尼：第一个问题，你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: The Dream Machine, which is a tremendous history of pre-history, really of modern computing ostensibly following the life of J.C.R Licklider, but really it's much broader than that, is a tremendous missing piece of history in my opinion.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃斯：《梦想机器》是一部巨大的史前史，实际上是现代计算的历史，表面上追随 J.C.R Licklider 的一生，但实际上它的范围要广泛得多，在我看来，这是一段巨大的缺失历史。
I think in my discipline, in computer science, we were not properly educated.
我认为在我的学科，即计算机科学领域，我们没有受到适当的教育。
We learned about Alan Turing and we learned about some of the technical underpinnings of computer science theory, but the modern computer and the path to it is a profound and fascinating one, and it has particular resonance today as J.C.R Licklider's observation was human in the loop computing and I think we are now in human in the loop AI, and I think there's a tremendous resonance there.
我们了解了艾伦·图灵，也了解了计算机科学理论的一些技术基础，但现代计算机及其发展之路是深刻而迷人的，它在今天引起了特别的共鸣，因为 J.C.R Licklider 的观察是人机循环计算，我认为我们现在处于人机循环人工智能中，我认为那里存在巨大的共鸣。
The second one is Good Inside, which is Dr. Becky's book, and again, I think it's a tremendous parenting book, but more than that, it does contain lessons for how we think about our own emotions and how we manage those, which I find to be useful in any context.
第二本是《Good Inside》，这是贝基博士的书，我再次认为这是一本很棒的育儿书，但更重要的是，它确实包含了关于我们如何思考自己的情绪以及如何管理这些情绪的课程，我发现这些课程在任何情况下都很有用。
Lenny: Amazing recommendations.
莱尼：很棒的建议。
She's also got an online community for people that-
她还为人们建立了一个在线社区——
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: She has a wonderful online community, she's very engaged in it.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：她有一个很棒的在线社区，她非常投入。
And for those parents out there, you're a little early for this Lenny, but you'll get there.
对于那些父母来说，你对这个莱尼的看法还为时过早，但你会到达那里的。
Having little scripts that I'm reading on Instagram that when I'm in a moment of tremendous emotional challenge with my children, I have the words handy.
我在 Instagram 上读了一些小脚本，当我和孩子们面临巨大的情感挑战时，我可以方便地使用这些文字。
They're just top of mind for me.
他们只是我最关心的事情。
They've been cashed in, right?
他们已经兑现了，对吗？
They're primed, is a big game changer.
他们已做好准备，是一个重大的游戏规则改变者。
Lenny: This will be for our parenting episode down the road.
莱尼：这将是我们接下来的育儿节目。
Lenny: Is there a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed?
莱尼：最近有没有你最喜欢的电影或电视节目？
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Yeah.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：是的。
This is super conventional, but Mandalorian.
这是超传统的，但却是曼达洛式的。
One of the things that's been fun about that is really my kids again is we watched it with my kids, so we had a chance to go on the Galactic Star Cruiser.
对于我的孩子来说，有趣的事情之一就是我们和我的孩子们一起观看了它，所以我们有机会登上银河星际巡洋舰。
Again, y'all know I am a genuine and true nerd through and through.
再说一次，你们都知道我是一个彻头彻尾的真正的书呆子。
Huge fan of Scott Trowbridge and his work at Star Wars service lands in Disney and also of that.
斯科特·特罗布里奇的超级粉丝和他在《星球大战》服务中的作品登陆迪士尼，也是如此。
And so before that we got our kids who were nine and six and watched all the movies together, and then we were watching Mandalorian together as a family, and it's super fun and it's fun to have that kind of lore, a connection.
在那之前，我们带着九岁和六岁的孩子一起看了所有的电影，然后我们一家人一起看《曼达洛人》，这非常有趣，有这种传说和联系也很有趣。
So it's not just the classic kids movies, but there's something more, and I think for them they feel like it's an adult kind of conversation they get to be a part of.
所以这不仅仅是经典的儿童电影，还有更多的东西，我认为对他们来说，他们觉得这是他们可以参与的成人对话。
I've really enjoyed that.
我真的很喜欢这样。
And I think the world of Dave Filoni and John Favreau and the team that's building that universe out.
我认为戴夫·费洛尼（Dave Filoni）和约翰·费儒（John Favreau）的世界以及正在构建这个宇宙的团队。
Lenny: Do you have a favorite interview question that you like to ask candidates that you're interviewing?
莱尼：您有最喜欢问正在面试的候选人的面试问题吗？
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: One of the most important things that I always ask people is what people who've worked with them would say are their greatest strengths and weaknesses.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：我经常问人们的最重要的事情之一是，与他们共事过的人会说他们最大的优点和缺点是什么。
I like this for a couple of reasons, not least of which is I often do follow up with references and I like to triangulate their awareness of how other people calibrate though.
我喜欢这个有几个原因，其中最重要的是我经常跟进推荐人，并且我喜欢三角测量他们对其他人如何校准的认识。
And also how they respond to criticism.
以及他们如何回应批评。
Sometimes candidates surprise me.
有时候选人会让我感到惊讶。
They say, "Hey, you'll hear this critique a lot from me.
他们说：“嘿，你会经常从我这里听到这样的批评。
I don't think it's fair." That can be an okay answer, but they've got to be a pretty robust there.
我认为这不公平。”这可能是一个不错的答案，但它们必须非常强大。
Or it's like, "Hey, this is something I'm working on, here's what I'm working on." But I also like to hear what they think their superpowers are.
或者就像是，“嘿，这是我正在做的事情，这就是我正在做的事情。”但我也想听听他们认为自己的超能力是什么。
And too often a lot of attention in interviews is paid to weaknesses, which I care about because I want to know what the downside is.
在面试中，很多注意力都集中在弱点上，我之所以关心这些弱点，是因为我想知道缺点是什么。
But way more important to me is like, "What are you awesome at?
但对我来说更重要的是，“你最擅长什么？
What is the thing that if I can just hitch a wagon and ride, that's what I want to know.
如果我能搭上一辆马车并骑行的话，这就是我想知道的事情。
Where's the superpower that you're crushing it at?"
你要粉碎的超能力在哪里？”
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And what's funny is people are pretty rarely give my reference checks.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：有趣的是，人们很少对我进行背景调查。
They're not that often accurate about what the critiques are, but they're usually pretty accurate about what their strengths are.
他们对于批评的内容并不那么准确，但他们通常对于自己的优势非常准确。
Lenny: Interesting.
莱尼：有趣。
I'm also a huge proponent of strengths and not worrying too much about your weaknesses.
我也是一个大力支持优点的人，不太担心你的缺点。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: But asking people to contextualize their performance through the team, that's so important.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：但是要求人们通过团队了解他们的表现，这非常重要。
We do not achieve very much on our own.
我们靠自己并没有取得多大成就。
Lenny: Communication is the job.
莱尼：沟通就是工作。
Amazing.
惊人的。
Is there a favorite product that you recently discovered that you love?
有没有您最近发现自己喜欢的最喜欢的产品？
And Meta products are acceptable answers.
元产品是可以接受的答案。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: The Ray-Ban Meta glasses would be a tempting answer.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：雷朋 Meta 眼镜将是一个诱人的答案。
The multimodal stuff, which I'm going to get in trouble because I've been teasing this for months on social media and it's still a closed beta, and it's like, "We're growing the beta slowly," but it's like, "People already really badly want it." It was probably one of the most magical things I've gotten to try recently.
多式联运的东西，我会遇到麻烦，因为我几个月来一直在社交媒体上嘲笑它，它仍然是一个封闭的测试版，就像，“我们正在缓慢地增加测试版”，但它就像，“人们已经非常想要它。”这可能是我最近尝试过的最神奇的事情之一。
It's not totally fair because it's also not you can buy the Ray-Ban Meta glasses and very soon, I won't say when, but very soon they'll have this capability, but it's more fun to think outside of the box.
这并不完全公平，因为你也买不到雷朋 Meta 眼镜，很快，我不会说何时，但很快他们就会拥有这种功能，但跳出框框思考更有趣。
All right, this is such a...
好吧，这就是这样一个...
I'm going to get in trouble for this answer because it's a bit of a pretentious one.
我会因为这个答案而陷入麻烦，因为它有点自命不凡。
I'm not a car guy, let me say that right now.
我不是车迷，我现在就说一下。
I don't like cars.
我不喜欢汽车。
I don't care about cars.
我不关心汽车。
I want a car that works and doesn't break.
我想要一辆能用且不会损坏的汽车。
All my cars growing up, had over a hundred thousand miles in them because we only ever had used cars.
我成长过程中所有的汽车都行驶了超过十万英里，因为我们只拥有二手车。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: They were constantly breaking down and the power steering would go out while you're driving and you have to the thing and the brakes would go out or you'd throw a rod.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：它们经常出故障，当你开车时，动力转向系统会熄火，你必须踩住刹车，否则你会扔一根杆。
I've done it all.
我已经完成了这一切。
I just wanted a car.
我只是想要一辆车。
And so then I drove a Honda Accord that I bought for 10 years and then I drove a Tesla Model S for 10 years.
然后我开了一辆本田雅阁，我买了 10 年，然后我又开了一辆特斯拉 Model S 10 年。
And a Tesla model S had a thing happen to it while it was parked, I will get into that.
一辆特斯拉 Model S 在停车时发生了事故，我会对此进行讨论。
I get a new car and again, I'm like, "I want to get an electric car." And I was like, "I'm going to get something nice.
我买了一辆新车，然后我又想，“我想要一辆电动汽车。”我当时想，“我会得到一些好东西。
I'm going to get something nice.
我要去得到一些好东西。
I want to get something nice." I'm driving a Mercedes-Benz AMG EQS, and I didn't know cars could be this nice.
我想要得到一些好东西。”我开着一辆梅赛德斯-奔驰 AMG EQS，我不知道汽车可以这么好。
I grew up driving used cars and whatever, I did not know it was possible.
我是开二手车长大的，无论如何，我不知道这是可能的。
It is the best augmented reality product I think you could buy in the market today.
我认为这是当今市场上可以买到的最好的增强现实产品。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: With the heads of display, it puts your turn in three-dimensional space.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：通过显示器头，您可以进入三维空间。
It's got cameras facing your eyes, so it's positioned correctly on this display relative to your eyes, the turn.
它的摄像头正对着你的眼睛，因此它在显示器上相对于你的眼睛（转弯）的位置正确。
And so when you come up, it's like you're hitting a little wall, you got to turn before you hit the wall.
所以当你上来的时候，就像你撞到了一堵小墙，你必须在撞到墙之前转身。
And I was like, "Oh my God, I think this car has a great augmented reality." Not a car guy, and I'm not trying to flex on this car or whatever it is.
我当时想，“天哪，我认为这辆车有很棒的增强现实功能。”我不是一个汽车爱好者，我也不想在这辆车或其他什么东西上炫耀。
I like it a lot.
我非常喜欢它。
I didn't know they could be that nice, but the thing that I thought was so impressive was they did an amazing job with augmented reality in this car.
我不知道他们会那么好，但我认为令人印象深刻的是他们在这辆车上的增强现实方面做得非常出色。
Lenny: Wow.
莱尼：哇。
Mercedes-Benz, a player in the augmented reality, mixed reality space.
梅赛德斯-奔驰是增强现实、混合现实领域的参与者。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Big time.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：伟大的时刻。
They're out there, they're in the lead.
他们在那里，他们处于领先地位。
Lenny: I sometimes think about having a contest where I give away products people mention in this segment, and now you've blown my budget way out of proportion.
莱尼：我有时会考虑举办一场竞赛，赠送人们在这一部分提到的产品，但现在你已经超出了我的预算。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Ray-Ban Metas, you can afford that.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：Ray-Ban Metas，你买得起。
Lenny: That's an amazing, I'm going to have to check that out.
莱尼：太棒了，我得去看看。
I think we're going to increase some sales for Mercedes.
我认为我们将增加梅赛德斯的一些销量。
Next question.
下一个问题。
Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to think about, share with friends and family, find useful?
您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，您经常回想一下，与朋友和家人分享，并发现它有用？
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Yeah.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：是的。
We have a funny actually how we came about this.
事实上，我们有一个有趣的事情是如何发生的。
The motto my family has, my immediate family, me, my wife and kids is just trust yourself.
我的家人、我的直系亲属、我、我的妻子和孩子的座右铭就是相信自己。
Just trust yourself.
只要相信你自己。
Actually, the reason we have that motto is when we have a house, we have a few nice art pieces and one of them is a Tracy Amen, a famous UK based artist, and she does neon pieces and it says, "Trust yourself." And so it's in our bedroom hallway where me and all the kids and my wife are, it says, trust yourself and every morning the neon lights up and it's trust yourself.
事实上，我们有这句座右铭的原因是，当我们拥有一所房子时，我们就有一些漂亮的艺术品，其中之一是特蕾西·阿门（Tracy Amen），一位著名的英国艺术家，她创作霓虹灯作品，上面写着“相信自己”。因此，在我们的卧室走廊里，我、所有的孩子和我的妻子都在那里，它说，相信你自己，每天早上霓虹灯都会亮起，这就是相信你自己。
And then I had the chance to have a crest made in the UK and my family's English from way back.
然后我有机会获得英国制造的徽章和我家族的英语。
And so in the crest it says, "Trust yourself." And I always talk to my kids, especially.
因此，徽章上写着：“相信自己。”我总是和我的孩子们说话，尤其是。
I really think people, when you're experiencing peer pressure like, "Who do you trust?
我真的认为人们，当你经历同侪压力时，比如“你信任谁？
Them or yourself?
他们还是你自己？
When you're having a lot of self-doubt and uncertainty, you have to trust yourself."
当你有很多自我怀疑和不确定性时，你必须相信自己。”
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: I just think so much of the success I've had, I think this is probably true of most people who went to startups and succeeded, was like, "I just had faith that I was making good decisions." I mean, this comes back to the conviction point I made earlier about how you do things like newsfeed or controversial things or how you make big expensive changes, just conviction.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：我认为我所取得的成功对于大多数进入初创公司并取得成功的人来说可能都是如此，就像，“我只是相信自己做出了正确的决定。”我的意思是，这又回到了我之前提出的信念点，即你如何做新闻推送或有争议的事情，或者如何做出代价高昂的重大改变，只是信念。
You have to believe you, your eyes, ears in an intellect have combined to give you a point of view that has intrinsic value and deserves your respect as opposed to reading that newspaper article about your company and believing it over what your own eyes and ears have told you.
你必须相信你、你的眼睛、耳朵的智慧结合起来给你一个具有内在价值并值得你尊重的观点，而不是阅读报纸上关于你公司的文章并相信它而不是你自己的眼睛和耳朵告诉你的。
That's the motto that we go with.
这是我们的座右铭。
Lenny: And I think it's also important to say you won't always be right and that's okay.
莱尼：我认为同样重要的是要说你不会总是正确的，但这没关系。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Totally.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：完全可以。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Trusting yourself also includes taking risks because you trust that you can deal and handle with what happens when the risks don't pay out.
信任自己还包括承担风险，因为您相信自己能够处理和处理当风险无法支付时所发生的情况。
Lenny: Beautiful.
莱尼：美丽。
Final question.
最后一个问题。
I know that you're an amateur photographer, maybe semi-pro photographer, a lot of travel photography.
我知道您是一位业余摄影师，也许是半专业摄影师，经常进行旅行摄影。
Lenny: Amateur.
莱尼：业余的。
Okay.
好的。
You also have this website that I came across that I don't know if people know about it, it's this funny name.
你还有一个我偶然发现的网站，我不知道人们是否知道它，这是一个有趣的名字。
I'm not going to mention that.
我不会提及这一点。
I don't know if you want people...
不知道你要不要人...
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Warden Shortbow, it's an anagram of my name.
安德鲁“博兹”博斯沃思：守望者短弓，这是我名字的字谜。
Warden Shortbow, an anagram of Andrew Bosworth, wardenshortbow.com.
Warden Shortbow，Andrew Bosworth 的字谜，wardenshortbow.com。
I love photography.
我喜欢摄影。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
It's a real passion of mine.
这是我真正的热情。
Lenny: So here's the question.
莱尼：所以问题来了。
What's your favorite photo that you've taken?
你拍过的最喜欢的照片是什么？
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Art is actually a great place to talk about trusting yourself, by the way.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：顺便说一句，艺术实际上是谈论信任自己的好地方。
And I know it's cheesy to say it, but I think Rick Rubin's recent interviews on what art is and how people make it is spot on.
我知道这样说很俗气，但我认为里克·鲁宾最近关于什么是艺术以及人们如何创造艺术的采访是正确的。
You have to make it for yourself and you have to love it.
你必须为自己做，并且必须热爱它。
And if someone else loves it and it finds broader resonance, that's awesome, but that's not why you do it.
如果其他人喜欢它并且它找到了更广泛的共鸣，那就太棒了，但这不是你这样做的原因。
And if you start to try to do it for broader resonance, then you're kind of chasing something else.
如果你开始尝试这样做是为了引起更广泛的共鸣，那么你就有点在追求别的东西了。
It's media, it's entertainment, but it's not art.
它是媒体，它是娱乐，但它不是艺术。
It's some other thing.
这是另一回事。
And I say all this to basically tap dance and say, I kind of love a lot of my photos and it's very hard to pick a favorite.
我说这一切基本上是为了跳踢踏舞，我说，我喜欢我的很多照片，但很难选出最喜欢的一张。
The one that is popping to my head, which has more emotional is a picture I took of my son playing in the street and just jumping in a puddle, wearing a rain boot, rain slick kind of a thing.
我脑海中浮现出的更具情感色彩的是我拍的一张照片，照片中我的儿子在街上玩耍，他穿着雨鞋，在水坑里跳来跳去，雨天湿滑之类的。
And it's not sharp, it's not in focus.
而且它不清晰，也不对焦。
It's a vignette, it's an idea.
这是一个小插曲，这是一个想法。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: And I really do think Ansel Adams talked a lot about how the goal of the photographer is to create a capture that expresses to the viewer what it felt like to be there.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：我确实认为安塞尔·亚当斯谈了很多关于摄影师的目标是如何创造一个镜头来向观众表达身临其境的感觉。
And people forget that he was a master of the dark room even more so than maybe than the capture, the print.
人们忘记了他是暗室大师，甚至比捕捉、印刷更重要。
The print was where he did amazing work.
印刷品是他做出惊人工作的地方。
And I've had the pleasure to go to his dark room in Big Sur and spend time with his son and watch them do development in that room.
我很高兴去他位于大苏尔的暗室，与他的儿子共度时光，观看他们在那个房间里进行开发。
And he had elaborate scripts of how he would highlight, dodge and burn different parts of the photograph to get it to have the resonance that he wanted.
他还制定了详细的脚本，说明如何突出显示、闪避和加深照片的不同部分，以使其产生他想要的共鸣。
And he fought for photography to be accepted as an artistic medium, which it wasn't, which I find so resonant in today's AI art conversations where once again, we're trying to gate keep what is art and you just don't get to do that unfortunately.
他为摄影被接受为一种艺术媒介而奋斗，但事实并非如此，我发现这在当今的人工智能艺术对话中引起了共鸣，我们再次试图限制艺术的范围，但不幸的是你无法做到这一点。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: So this picture of my son, no one would call it a technical marvel, but as a vignette of it capturing for me personally, but also I think in general for parents, the ephemerality of these tremendously touching, charming human moments that you have with your children, that's the one that comes to mind.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：所以我儿子的这张照片，没有人会称其为技术奇迹，但作为它的一个小插曲，对我个人来说，而且我认为对一般父母来说，你和孩子一起度过的这些极其感人、迷人的人类时刻的短暂性，这就是你想到的。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
We're going to try to find it and link folks to it.
我们将尝试找到它并将人们与它联系起来。
And on the point of Rick Rubin, something he says along the same lines is that you think of art as your diary.
就里克·鲁宾（Rick Rubin）的观点而言，他也说过类似的话，那就是你将艺术视为你的日记。
I am just describing what I find interesting and important and nobody can come to me and say my diary is wrong.
我只是描述我觉得有趣和重要的事情，没有人可以来找我说我的日记是错误的。
It's my diary, this is how I see the world, and that's okay.
这是我的日记，这就是我看待世界的方式，没关系。
And that's where the best art comes from is just emboldening to this...
这就是最好的艺术的来源，这只是鼓励......
there's an awesome video of him saying exactly this that I was recently watching actually.
我最近正在观看一段很棒的视频，他正是这么说的。
Boz, this was so much fun.
博兹，这太有趣了。
I am so thankful we made time for this.
我非常感谢我们为此腾出了时间。
I'm looking forward to our parenting and relationships podcast in the future.
我期待着未来我们的育儿和人际关系播客。
Joking, not joking.
开玩笑，不是开玩笑。
Two final questions.
最后两个问题。
Where can folks find you online if they want to follow what you're up to and how can listeners be useful to you?
如果人们想了解您的动态，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Sure.
安德鲁·“博兹”·博斯沃思：当然。
I'm @boztank on Instagram and on Threads and also on X, facebook.com/boz.
我在 Instagram、Threads 以及 X、facebook.com/boz 上的账号是 @boztank。
And I also have my own podcast, which is a technical deep dive, so it's pretty different, I would say.
我也有自己的播客，这是一个技术深度探讨，所以我想说，它是非常不同的。
It's a technical deep dives to try to go deep on one or two topics each time.
每次尝试深入探讨一两个主题是一项技术深入研究。
That's called Boz to the Future.
这就是所谓的博兹未来。
You can find that on Spotify or iTunes.
您可以在 Spotify 或 iTunes 上找到它。
Lenny: Boz to the Future, buy some Quest stuff.
莱尼：博兹到未来，买一些探索的东西。
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth: Get yourself a Quest 3.
Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth：给自己准备一份 Quest 3。
Let's be honest.
说实话。
Dude, treat yourself.
伙计，善待自己吧。
Lenny: There you go.
莱尼：给你。
Or these Ray-Ban sunglasses.
或者这副雷朋太阳镜。
I'm a big fan.
我是它的忠实粉丝。
Boz, again, thank you so much for being here.
Boz，再次非常感谢您来到这里。
Lenny: Bye, everyone.
莱尼：再见，大家。
Thank you so much for listening.
非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。