How to find work you love | Bob Moesta (Jobs-to-be-Done co-creator, author of "Job Moves”)

Bob Moesta: I think one of the biggest misconceptions around Jobs to Be Done is this notion that it's pain and gain as opposed to context and outcome.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：我认为对“待完成的工作”的最大误解之一是这样的观念：它是痛苦和收获，而不是背景和结果。

When you hear somebody's story and it seems irrational, like we'll have people go, "Oh my God, that's an anomaly.

当你听到某人的故事时，如果它看起来不合理，我们就会让人说：“天哪，这太反常了。

That doesn't happen." But what you realize is that the context makes the irrational rational.

那不会发生。”但你会意识到，环境使非理性变得合理。

So the moment you hear a story, you go, "I can't believe that," nine times out of 10, it's because you don't have the rest of the story.

所以当你听到一个故事的那一刻，你十有八九会说“我不敢相信”，这是因为你不知道故事的其余部分。

And so part of it's being able to understand the rest of that context that would drive somebody to say, "Why would somebody cut their arm off?" Well, if they're in this situation and this and this and this, there's nobody who would say they want to cut their arm off, but in certain situations you'll do it.

因此，部分原因是能够理解上下文的其余部分，这会促使人们说：“为什么有人会砍掉他们的手臂？”好吧，如果他们处于这种情况，这样，这样，这样，没有人会说他们想砍掉自己的手臂，但在某些情况下你会这么做。

And so that's what we're trying to do is find, where will people change behavior?

所以这就是我们想要做的就是找到人们会在哪里改变行为？

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard-won experiences building and growing today's most successful products.

Lenny：欢迎来到 Lenny 的播客，我在这里采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，学习他们构建和发展当今最成功产品的来之不易的经验。

Today my guest is Bob Moesta.

今天我的嘉宾是鲍勃·莫埃斯塔。

Bob is the co-creator of the Jobs to Be Done Framework alongside Clay Christensen.

鲍勃 (Bob) 与克莱·克里斯滕森 (Clay Christensen) 共同创建了待完成工作框架 (Jobs to Be Done Framework)。

And as you'll hear at the top of our conversation, is maybe the most anticipated guest I've had based on the LinkedIn response.

正如您在我们谈话的开头会听到的那样，根据 LinkedIn 的回复，他可能是我见过的最受期待的客人。

Bob has started eight companies and is currently the co-founder and CEO of the Rewired Group, and currently spends his time helping companies of all sizes unlock hidden insights and create successful products and services.

Bob 创办了八家公司，目前是 Rewired Group 的联合创始人兼首席执行官，目前致力于帮助各种规模的公司释放隐藏的见解并创造成功的产品和服务。

Lenny: In our conversation, we get deep into all aspects of the Jobs to Be Done framework.

Lenny：在我们的谈话中，我们深入探讨了“待完成的工作”框架的各个方面。

What is it, how to apply it to your product, when it's not a good fit, how to interview customers to get accurate insights into their struggles, plus examples of how Jobs to Be Done works for zero to one products and a ton more.

它是什么，如何将其应用到您的产品中，当它不合适时，如何采访客户以准确了解他们的困境，以及“待完成的工作”如何适用于零到一个产品以及更多产品的示例。

Thank you to everyone who suggested questions and topics for our conversation.

感谢所有为我们的对话提出问题和主题的人。

Enjoy my chat with Bob Moesta after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，请享受我与鲍勃·莫埃斯塔的聊天。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Sidebar.

莱尼：这一集是由 Sidebar 为您带来的。

Are you looking to land your next big career move or start your own thing?

您是否正在寻找下一个重大职业变动或开始自己的事业？

One of the most effective ways to create a big leap in your career and something that worked really well for me a few years ago is to create a personal board of directors, a trusted peer group where you can discuss challenges you're having, get career advice, and just kind of gut check how you're thinking about your work, your career, and your life.

实现职业生涯重大飞跃的最有效方法之一是创建一个个人董事会，这是一个值得信赖的同行小组，几年前对我来说非常有效，您可以在其中讨论您遇到的挑战，获得职业建议，并直观地检查您对工作、职业和生活的看法。

This has been a big trajectory changer for me, but it's hard to build this trusted group.

这对我来说是一个巨大的轨迹改变，但建立这个值得信赖的团队很困难。

With Sidebar, senior leaders are matched with highly vetted, private supportive peer groups to lean on for unbiased opinions, diverse perspectives, and raw feedback.

通过 Sidebar，高级领导者可以与经过严格审查的私人支持性同行团体相匹配，以获取公正的意见、不同的观点和原始反馈。

Everyone has their own zone of genius, so together we're better prepared to navigate professional pitfalls leading to more responsibility, faster promotions, and bigger impact.

每个人都有自己的天才区，因此我们可以齐心协力，更好地应对职业陷阱，从而承担更多的责任、更快的晋升和更大的影响力。

Guided by world-class programming and facilitation, Sidebar enables you to get focused tactical feedback at every step of your journey.

在世界一流的编程和便利指导下，Sidebar 使您能够在旅程的每一步获得有针对性的战术反馈。

Lenny: If you're a listener of this podcast, you're likely already driven and committed to growth.

莱尼：如果您是这个播客的听众，您可能已经有动力并致力于成长。

A Sidebar personal board of directors is the missing piece to catalyze that journey.

侧栏个人董事会是催化这一旅程所缺失的部分。

Why spend a decade finding your people when you can meet them at Sidebar today?

今天您就可以在补充工具栏上见到您的朋友，为什么要花十年的时间来寻找他们呢？

Jump the growing wait list of thousands of leaders from top tech companies by visiting didebar.com/lenny to learn more.

访问 didebar.com/lenny，了解更多信息，从而跳过由顶级科技公司的数千名领导者组成的不断增长的候补名单。

That's sidebar.com/lenny.

这是 sidebar.com/lenny。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Merge.

莱尼：这一集是由 Merge 为您带来的。

Every product manager knows how slow product development can get when developers have to build and maintain integrations with other platforms.

每个产品经理都知道，当开发人员必须构建和维护与其他平台的集成时，产品开发会变得多么缓慢。

Merge's Unified API can fully remove this blocker from your roadmap.

Merge 的统一 API 可以从您的路线图中完全消除这个障碍。

With one API, your team can add over 180 HR, accounting, ATS, ticketing, CRM, file storage and marketing automation integrations into your product.

通过一个 API，您的团队可以将 180 多个 HR、会计、ATS、票务、CRM、文件存储和营销自动化集成添加到您的产品中。

You can get your first integration into production in a matter of days and save countless weeks building custom integrations, letting you get back to building your core product.

您可以在几天内首次集成到生产中，并节省构建自定义集成的无数周时间，让您可以重新构建核心产品。

Merge's integrations speed up the product development process for customers like Ramp, Drada and many other fast-growing and established companies, allowing them to test their features at scale without having to worry about a never-ending integrations roadmap.

Merge 的集成加快了 Ramp、Drada 和许多其他快速发展的老牌公司等客户的产品开发流程，使他们能够大规模测试其功能，而不必担心永无休止的集成路线图。

Save your engineers countless hours, hit your growth targets and expedite your sales cycle by making integration offerings your competitive advantage with Merge.

通过 Merge 使集成产品成为您的竞争优势，可以为您的工程师节省无数的时间，实现您的增长目标并加快您的销售周期。

Visit merge.dev/lenny to get started and integrate up to three customers for free.

请访问 merge.dev/lenny 开始并免费集成最多三个客户。

Lenny: Bob, thank you so much for being here.

莱尼：鲍勃，非常感谢你来到这里。

Welcome to the podcast.

欢迎来到播客。

Bob Moesta: Thanks, Lenny.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：谢谢，莱尼。

Excited to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Big fan.

大粉丝。

Lenny: Ah, I'm a big fan of yours.

莱尼：啊，我是你的忠实粉丝。

I wasn't even super familiar with you before we started organizing this podcast chat.And then as you saw, I posted on LinkedIn what questions people had for you and around Jobs to Be Done in general.

在我们开始组织这个播客聊天之前，我什至对你都不太熟悉。然后正如你所看到的，我在 LinkedIn 上发布了人们向你以及一般要完成的工作提出的问题。

And I've never seen so many comments and questions and so much passion for guests I had on, I think there was over-

我从来没有见过这么多的评论和问题，以及对我的客人如此热情，我认为有过度-

Lenny: Absolutely.

莱尼：当然。

There's, I don't don't know, 130 questions and comments and folks like Jason Fried, founder of 37signals and Des from Intercom came out and just like, I'm excited for this episode, so we got some here.

我不知道，有 130 个问题和评论，像 37signals 的创始人 Jason Fried 和 Intercom 的 Des 等人都出来了，就像，我对这一集感到兴奋，所以我们在这里得到了一些。

Bob Moesta: I've worked with all of them, they're great people and fun to work with.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：我和他们所有人都共事过，他们都是很棒的人，和他们一起工作很有趣。

Lenny: I just had no idea there's so much passion for Jobs to Be Done.

莱尼：我只是不知道人们对“待完成的工作”有如此大的热情。

I have a million questions for you, a lot of them coming from the audience, some from me.

我有一百万个问题要问你，其中很多来自观众，有些来自我。

So I'm excited to dig into a lot of this stuff.

所以我很高兴能够深入研究这些东西。

Lenny: Okay, so I thought it'd be useful just to start with the very basics briefly, just what is the simplest way to understand the Jobs to Be Done framework?

Lenny：好的，所以我认为简单地从基础知识开始会很有用，那么理解“待完成的工作”框架的最简单方法是什么？

Bob Moesta: I think the easiest way to think about it is that I'm an engineer, electrical, basically have been building product for almost 30 years and one of the lies I was told growing up was build it and they will come.

Bob Moesta：我认为最简单的思考方式是，我是一名电气工程师，基本上已经构建产品近 30 年了，我成长过程中听到的谎言之一就是构建它，他们就会来。

And so we always think about it from a technological, how do I build this thing?

所以我们总是从技术的角度来思考，我如何构建这个东西？

And all right, who wants this product?

好吧，谁想要这个产品？

And what I realized very early in my career is that really it didn't work, I couldn't make it work.

我在职业生涯的早期就意识到，它确实行不通，我无法让它发挥作用。

Bob Moesta: And so Jobs to Be Done is this whole premise that people hire products, they don't buy them, they hire them to make progress in their life.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：所以，《待完成的工作》是这样一个前提：人们雇佣产品，他们不是购买产品，而是雇佣产品来让自己的生活取得进步。

And if we can take a step back and look at it, we see it in a very different light to realize at some point they're in some context and there's some outcome they want.

如果我们能够退后一步来看待它，我们会从一个非常不同的角度来看待它，并意识到在某些时候他们处于某种背景下并且有他们想要的一些结果。

And if we can understand that, we start to realize that different things compete, right?

如果我们能理解这一点，我们就会开始意识到不同的事物之间存在竞争，对吗？

Bob Moesta: A simple example is think of Snickers and Milky Way, right?

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：一个简单的例子就是士力架和银河，对吧？

They're both candy bars, they're both bought in the checkout aisle, they're both made almost with the same ingredients, one has peanuts, one doesn't.

它们都是糖果，都是在收银台买的，它们的原料几乎相同，一种有花生，一种没有。

And if you start to compare the products and do a competitive benchmark, you start to get to one's a little softer, one's a little harder, one's got a few more calories, one's got less calories.

如果你开始比较产品并做一个有竞争力的基准，你就会开始发现一个更软一点，一个更硬一点，一个卡路里含量更多一些，一个卡路里含量更少。

But when you talk to people about when's the last time they ate a Snickers, when time's the last time they ate a Milky Way, you start to realize that Snickers typically is a case where they missed the last meal, they've got a lot of work to do, they're running out of energy and they want to basically get back to the tasks as fast as possible.

但是当你和人们谈论他们最后一次吃士力架是什么时候，他们最后一次吃银河系是什么时候，你开始意识到士力架通常是他们错过了最后一顿饭的情况，他们有很多工作要做，他们耗尽了精力，他们基本上想尽快回到任务上。

And so you start to realize that Snickers is about almost like a meal replacement and it's about the stomach is growling and things like that.

所以你开始意识到士力架几乎就像一种代餐，它会让胃在咕咕叫，诸如此类。

And you start to realize that if they didn't have a Snickers, it competes with a protein drink, it competes with a Red Bull, a coffee.

你开始意识到，如果他们没有士力架，它就会与蛋白质饮料竞争，它会与红牛、咖啡竞争。

Bob Moesta: But a Milky Way typically is eaten after an emotional experience, could be positive, could be negative.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：但是银河系通常是在情感体验之后被吃掉的，可能是积极的，也可能是消极的。

It's usually eaten alone, and it's taking time to regroup after this emotional thing.

通常都是一个人吃，在经历了这种情绪化的事情之后需要时间来重新振作起来。

And you start to realize that it competes with things like a glass of wine, a brownie, and to be honest, a run.

你开始意识到它与一杯酒、一块布朗尼蛋糕，甚至老实说，跑步之类的东西是竞争的。

And so when you start to realize that, jobs helps you see the true competitive set from what we call the demand side of the world as opposed to the competitive set from the supply side of the world, which is the technology or the underlying business model by how which we're making it.

因此，当你开始意识到这一点时，工作可以帮助你从我们所说的世界需求方看到真正的竞争环境，而不是来自世界供应方的竞争环境，即技术或我们如何制造它的基础商业模式。

And so it allows you to actually see what customers really want as opposed to trying to figure out, how do we sell things to people?

因此，它可以让您真正了解客户真正想要什么，而不是试图弄清楚我们如何向人们销售产品？

Lenny: To maybe follow up on this example a bit, how often do you find these jobs emerge after they've developed a product, in this case I guess Snickers or Milky Way, how often is it just like they see this problem and actually apply this approach even accidentally?

Lenny：或许可以稍微跟进一下这个例子，你发现这些工作在他们开发出产品后出现的频率有多少，在这种情况下我猜是士力架或银河系，他们有多少频率看到这个问题并实际上偶然应用这种方法？

Bob Moesta: What's interesting is that at least for me, the thing is what I learned was that supply and demand are not as connected as everybody thinks.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：有趣的是，至少对我来说，我了解到供给和需求并不像每个人想象的那样紧密相连。

Most people think they create a product and that creates demand.

大多数人认为他们创造了一种产品并创造了需求。

But the real thing that if you start to study causality is that a struggling moment causes demand.

但真正的问题是，如果你开始研究因果关系，困难时刻就会引发需求。

And you start to realize that in some cases that struggling moment exists and can exist for a long time and nobody solved it.

你开始意识到，在某些情况下，挣扎的时刻确实存在，并且可能存在很长一段时间，但没有人解决它。

So one of the companies I helped was Southern New Hampshire University and Paul Le Blanc.

我帮助过的公司之一是南新罕布什尔大学和 Paul Le Blanc。

And one of the things in 2010, we found basically these anomalies, these people who were going to school but not actually coming to class and watching everything online.

2010 年的一件事，我们基本上发现了这些异常现象，这些人本来要去上学，但实际上并没有来上课，而是在网上观看所有内容。

And it was like 50 or 60 of them and the anomalies basically, and they're paying full price, they didn't want to come.

大约有 50 或 60 个人，基本上都是异常现象，他们支付全价，但他们不想来。

For Paul, it was kind of like why are they doing this?

对于保罗来说，这有点像他们为什么要这样做？

Bob Moesta: And when we went to study them, we realized that they actually had a very different job than a typical 18 to 24 year old because one, they were a little bit older, typically they had either already had a degree or they basically had tried to go to college and it didn't work.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：当我们去研究他们时，我们意识到他们的工作实际上与典型的 18 至 24 岁年轻人的工作非常不同，因为他们的年龄稍大一些，通常他们要么已经拥有学位，要么基本上尝试过上大学但没有成功。

And it was about basically time now that they had responsibility to do something new.

现在基本上是他们有责任做一些新事情的时候了。

And so they didn't actually build the product at all.

所以他们实际上根本没有制造这个产品。

And as they started to look and say how many people want to go back to school but can't?

当他们开始观察并说有多少人想重返学校却不能？

They started to realize it's not a thousand people, it's not 10,000 people, they have over 200,000 students.

他们开始意识到这不是一千人，也不是一万人，他们有超过二十万名学生。

They're one of the largest universities in the world.

他们是世界上最大的大学之一。

And so all of this starts with a struggling moment, not with a product.

因此，所有这一切都是从一个挣扎的时刻开始的，而不是从一个产品开始的。

Bob Moesta: And so that's what we mean when we're customer-centric is that we're studying the struggling moments they have and people like Intercom and Basecamp, they look at struggling moments and that becomes their roadmap.

Bob Moesta：这就是我们以客户为中心时的意思，我们正在研究他们的挣扎时刻，而像 Intercom 和 Basecamp 这样的人，他们会关注挣扎时刻，这将成为他们的路线图。

Because again, think about a roadmap.

因为再次考虑路线图。

I'm literally trying to tell you what I'm going to build in the next 24 months, for example, but none of us saw ChatGPT coming.

例如，我确实想告诉您我将在接下来的 24 个月内构建什么，但我们没有人预见到 ChatGPT 的到来。

And so all of a sudden I have to go undo the roadmap.

所以突然间我必须撤销路线图。

But if I talk about the struggling moments that I'm trying to go after, all of a sudden I realize that the roadmap is now when I get to that struggling moment, there's multiple ways I can solve it.

但如果我谈论我正在努力追求的挣扎时刻，我突然意识到路线图就是现在，当我到达那个挣扎时刻时，我可以通过多种方法来解决它。

So instead of just talking about features, it's typically talking about features for the first 90 to 120 days, but after that we just talk about struggling moments because that's the seed for real innovation and basically where new products come from.

因此，它不只是谈论功能，而是通常谈论前 90 到 120 天的功能，但之后我们只谈论挣扎的时刻，因为这是真正创新的种子，基本上也是新产品的来源。

Lenny: To unpack the framework a little bit more, if you were to come to a founder and tell them, "Hey, you should be paying attention to struggling moments," I feel like all of them will say, "Yeah, we know that.

莱尼：为了进一步解释这个框架，如果你去找一位创始人并告诉他们，“嘿，你应该关注挣扎的时刻，”我觉得他们所有人都会说，“是的，我们知道这一点。

We do that.

我们这样做。

We look for pain and we try to solve it," so what I'm curious there maybe is just what is maybe the right way to do it?

我们寻找痛苦并尝试解决它，”所以我很好奇也许什么是正确的方法？

Bob Moesta: But it's not just the pain.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：但这不仅仅是痛苦。

See, what we're taught in business school was pain and gain, but the reality is it's the context.

你看，我们在商学院学到的是痛苦和收获，但现实是它的背景。

It's the fact that I didn't eat lunch before, the fact that I still have a lot of work to do, the fact that I have this podcast going on.

事实上我之前没有吃午饭，事实上我还有很多工作要做，事实上我还有这个播客。

It's not that I'm in pain, but it's the context that makes me value this in the moment that much more than something else.

这并不是因为我感到痛苦，而是因为当时的背景让我比其他事情更看重这一点。

And so part of this is it's not just about pain and gain, it's about context and outcomes.

因此，这不仅仅是关于痛苦和收获，而是关于背景和结果。

Bob Moesta: And so when you frame it that way, it becomes a vector, a vector of progress or a vector of intention of what they're trying to do.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：所以当你这样构建它时，它就变成了一个向量，一个进步的向量，或者是他们试图做的事情的意图的向量。

And once we frame that, then we can actually wrap technology around it.

一旦我们确定了这一点，我们就可以真正围绕它应用技术。

And the crazy part is that I was always told or taught if I build the best product, it will sell better.

最疯狂的是，我总是被告知或教导，如果我制造出最好的产品，它就会卖得更好。

And what I've learned is that actually a kick-ass half is better than a half-ass hole, and that's what Jason talks about.

我了解到的是，实际上，一个牛逼的一半比一个牛逼的洞要好，这就是杰森所说的。

But the reality is like if you look at QuickBooks, QuickBooks has half the features and double the price.

但现实情况是，如果你看看 QuickBooks，你会发现 QuickBooks 的功能只有一半，价格却是原来的两倍。

And you start to realize that at some point in time it's about meeting customers where they are, not trying to wow them and not trying to convince them.

你开始意识到，在某个时间点，重要的是要在客户所在的地方与他们会面，而不是试图让他们惊叹，也不是试图说服他们。

They convince themselves to make the progress.

他们说服自己取得进步。

Lenny: I'd like to understand this vector piece more because that feels really important.

Lenny：我想更多地了解这个矢量片段，因为这感觉非常重要。

So you were saying that it's not just there's a pain point, solve that, what you're saying is what's even more important is this context around that pain point and things that precede it?

所以你说这不仅仅是有一个痛点，解决它，你的意思是更重要的是围绕这个痛点的背景以及它之前的事情？

Bob Moesta: Yeah, so the first thing is we don't talk to people who just want to.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：是的，所以第一件事是我们不和那些只想说话的人交谈。

Lenny: For people listening on the podcast, Bob pulled up a drawing, so you should try to check out the YouTube video of this to see what he's doing.

莱尼：对于收听播客的人来说，鲍勃拉出了一张图画，所以你应该尝试查看该图的 YouTube 视频，看看他在做什么。

Bob Moesta: So there's some Product A is the old product and there's some Product B, which is the new product.

Bob Moesta：所以有些产品 A 是旧产品，有些产品 B 是新产品。

And ultimately people don't randomly do anything.

最终人们不会随意做任何事情。

And so the real heart of the method of Jobs to Be Done is understanding the causation of what pushes people to say, "Today's the day I got to do something different." And the push or the context they're in has nothing to do with the new product, it's the only reason why they would leave the old product.

因此，“待完成的工作”方法的真正核心是理解促使人们说“今天是我必须做一些不同的事情”的原因。他们所处的推动或环境与新产品无关，这是他们离开旧产品的唯一原因。

And if there's no push, they can't even see your product because we're creatures of habit, right?

如果没有推动，他们甚至看不到你的产品，因为我们是习惯的生物，对吗？

And so as soon as I have a push, I call that F1, force one, and I have some idea of what's possible, then I create something called F2, which is basically the pull to a new outcome, a new state, a new thing, right?

因此，一旦我有推动力，我称之为 F1，强制一，并且我对可能发生的事情有了一些想法，然后我创建了称为 F2 的东西，这基本上是对新结果、新状态、新事物的拉力，对吧？

And so at some point in time it's like I have to be in this situation and I have to want this outcome, right?

所以在某个时间点，我必须处于这种情况，我必须想要这个结果，对吗？

Bob Moesta: But here's the other part is that there's this waterline that there's these other forces and there's two other forces.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：但另一部分是，这条水线存在着其他力量，还有另外两种力量。

Every time I show somebody something new, it actually creates anxiety, right?

每次我向别人展示新东西时，实际上都会产生焦虑，对吧？

Anxiety of the new, and I call this F3, right?

新的焦虑，我称之为F3，对吗？

And then the other thing is I have to get them to leave old thing.

另一件事是我必须让他们留下旧的东西。

So I call this habit of the present.

所以我称这种习惯为当下。

And what you start to realize, and I call that F4, is if F1 and F2 are not greater than F3 and F4, they're not going to move, they're not going to do anything.

你开始意识到，我称之为 F4，如果 F1 和 F2 不大于 F3 和 F4，它们就不会移动，它们不会做任何事情。

And so ultimately what we're doing is we're framing the market as a system of behavior.

因此，最终我们要做的就是将市场构建为一个行为系统。

And most people say, "If I just add more features, create more pull, people will buy." It's not true.

大多数人说，“如果我添加更多功能，创造更多吸引力，人们就会购买。”这不是真的。

More features create actually anxiety, can it do all those things?

更多的功能实际上会让人焦虑，它能做所有这些事情吗？

Bob Moesta: And what you start to realize is if I reduce friction, which is the bottom part, I actually don't have to do anything with a product, I just have to make easier.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：你开始意识到，如果我减少摩擦，这是底部部分，我实际上不需要对产品做任何事情，我只需要变得更容易。

So for example, one of the things I did is I built houses and one of the frictional points that people had in moving was the fact of moving house was basically packing all their stuff up and going somewhere.

举例来说，我所做的一件事是建造房屋，而人们在搬家时遇到的摩擦点之一是搬家基本上就是收拾好所有东西并前往某个地方。

And so I would literally sell them a condo, they'd go from a 3000 square foot home to a 1500 square foot condo and they'd cancel six weeks later because they didn't know how to get rid of all their stuff, which is a frictional point.

所以我真的会卖给他们一套公寓，他们会从 3000 平方英尺的房子变成 1500 平方英尺的公寓，六周后他们会取消，因为他们不知道如何处理掉所有的东西，这是一个摩擦点。

So what did I do?

那么我做了什么？

I actually raised the price of the condo, included moving in two years of storage as part of the deal with the condo because it's the frictional coefficient and I increased sales over 30%.

事实上，我提高了公寓的价格，包括将两年的存储空间作为与公寓交易的一部分，因为这是摩擦系数，我的销售额增加了 30% 以上。

Bob Moesta: So what this is it's really about focusing on the customer.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：所以这实际上是关注客户。

It's about understanding the causation behind it and then using design thinking to actually start to realize, how do we actually enable people to make progress?

这是关于理解其背后的因果关系，然后使用设计思维来真正开始意识到，我们如何真正使人们取得进步？

We don't need to sell them, we need to enable them to buy.

我们不需要卖掉他们，我们需要让他们能够购买。

Bob Moesta: And so I wrote a book called Demand Side Sales that basically took the premise of stop trying to sell people and just help them make progress, help them buy.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：所以我写了一本名为《需求侧销售》的书，其基本前提是停止试图向人们推销，而只是帮助他们取得进步，帮助他们购买。

And so the whole book is instead of trying to base the sales process on how we want to sell, we need to actually design the sales process on how they want to buy.

因此，整本书不是试图将销售流程建立在我们想要如何销售的基础上，而是需要根据他们想要如何购买来实际设计销售流程。

And it seems like it's the same thing, but they're actually really, really different things.

看起来好像是同一件事，但实际上它们是非常非常不同的东西。

Lenny: Is there an example that can make this even more real of a company or a product?

Lenny：有没有一个例子可以让这对公司或产品来说更加真实？

Bob Moesta: So one of the companies I work with a lot lately is a company called Autobooks, they're based here in Detroit.

Bob Moesta：我最近经常合作的公司之一是一家名为 Autobooks 的公司，他们的总部位于底特律。

And basically they help banks basically do invoicing through let's say Apple Pay.

基本上，他们帮助银行通过 Apple Pay 开具发票。

And so instead of having to use Square or PayPal, you literally can use your bank now to do these things.

因此，您现在实际上可以使用银行来完成这些操作，而不必使用 Square 或 PayPal。

And so there's two things, they have to sell small business on it, but they also have to sell banks on it.

所以有两件事，他们必须向小企业出售，但他们也必须向银行出售。

And when we started talking about it, they talked about why do banks want it?

当我们开始谈论它时，他们谈论了为什么银行想要它？

And the first thing we did is we found out there's three really different reasons why banks want them.

我们做的第一件事是我们发现银行需要它们有三个完全不同的原因。

Bob Moesta: But the thing is that where the process looked at is they would talk about the struggling moment, they talk about what was going on and then everything was about getting them to a demo.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：但问题是，在整个过程中，他们会谈论挣扎的时刻，他们谈论正在发生的事情，然后一切都是为了让他们进行演示。

And once we got them to a demo, we had to close them.

一旦我们让它们进行演示，我们就必须关闭它们。

Well, it turns out that the buying process literally has different phases in it.

事实证明，购买过程实际上有不同的阶段。

There's the first thought, there's something called passive looking where they're problem aware and solution unaware and they have to learn a bunch of things, and then there's active looking where they're both problem and solution aware and they're trying to figure it out and frame a solution, and then there's deciding which is about making trade-offs.

第一个想法是，有一种叫做被动寻找的东西，他们意识到问题，但不知道解决方案，他们必须学习很多东西，然后是主动寻找，他们既意识到问题，又意识到解决方案，他们试图找出答案并制定解决方案，然后决定哪个是关于做出权衡的。

Bob Moesta: And so what we end up doing is when I started to talk to the team about it, what they started to realize is I said, "Where is the customer in their timeline of buying?" And they looked at me like, "Huh?" I said, "No, no, you have a timeline of how you want to sell to them and after the demo you try to close, but what if they're actually in passive looking and want a demo to learn more?

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：所以我们最终要做的是，当我开始与团队讨论这个问题时，他们开始意识到我说，“客户在购买时间表中的位置在哪里？”他们看着我，好像在说：“嗯？”我说，“不，不，你有一个时间表，说明你想如何向他们销售产品，并且在演示之后你尝试关闭，但如果他们实际上处于被动状态并希望通过演示来了解更多信息怎么办？

It's very different than if I'm trying to close." And so what we ended up doing is breaking the demo apart, asking people where they were in their buying process.

这与我试图关闭的情况非常不同。”因此，我们最终所做的是将演示分开，询问人们他们在购买过程中处于什么阶段。

And by doing that we actually then found out a way in which to give them three different demos, one about telling stories and giving them the background about the problem, another one about showing them all the alternatives, and then the last one is about basically giving them choices between ways to move forward, right?

通过这样做，我们实际上找到了一种方法，可以为他们提供三个不同的演示，一个是讲故事并向他们提供问题的背景，另一个是向他们展示所有替代方案，最后一个基本上是让他们在前进的方式之间进行选择，对吧？

Bob Moesta: And you'd think that it would make the sales process longer, it actually made the sales process almost half and at 4x basically conversion because now we meet them where they are as opposed to where we want them to be.

Bob Moesta：你可能会认为这会让销售流程变得更长，实际上它使销售流程几乎减半，基本上转化率提高了 4 倍，因为现在我们在他们所在的地方遇到他们，而不是我们希望他们在的地方。

Lenny: And is that something you find generally in the sales process, there's these three phases that everyone goes through and you got to think about them individually?

莱尼：这是你在销售过程中通常会发现的事情吗？每个人都会经历这三个阶段，你必须单独考虑它们？

Bob Moesta: Yeah, there's actually, I call them six phases.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：是的，实际上，我称之为六个阶段。

First thought, passive looking, active looking, deciding, first use, and then ongoing use.

首先思考，被动寻找，主动寻找，决定，首先使用，然后持续使用。

How do we build the new habit?

我们如何养成新习惯？

And so if we don't actually study that part of how do people transform themselves through a struggling moment, we don't know what they want.

因此，如果我们不真正研究人们如何在挣扎的时刻改变自己，我们就不知道他们想要什么。

If I talk to people who want to buy a house, they tell me they want granite and hardwood and they'll make everything these things they want.

如果我和想买房子的人交谈，他们告诉我他们想要花岗岩和硬木，他们会制造他们想要的一切。

Bob Moesta: But when you actually talk to people who bought a house, they actually made a lot of trade-offs.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：但是当你真正与买房的人交谈时，他们实际上做了很多权衡。

Although for example, everybody I would survey before buying a house, I had 93% say they wanted an Energy Star compliant house.

例如，尽管我在买房前调查了每个人，但 93% 的人表示他们想要一套符合能源之星标准的房子。

It cost 30 grand to make an Energy Star compliant at the time.

当时要达到能源之星标准需要花费 30 英镑。

And the reality is nobody bought it, they all bought the finished basement.

现实是没有人买它，他们都买了完工的地下室。

And so there's the difference between what they say they want and what they want.

所以他们所说的和他们想要的之间存在差异。

Bob Moesta: And so the method itself is not based on traditional research or market research, asking people what it is.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：所以该方法本身并不是基于传统研究或市场研究，询问人们它是什么。

It's actually based on criminal and intelligence interrogation about telling me the story about how you decided today's the day I bought a house or today's the day I went back to school.

它实际上是基于刑事和情报审讯，告诉我你如何决定今天是我买房的日子还是今天是我回学校的日子。

It's not random.

这不是随机的。

And if it's not random, then we need to actually find it.

如果它不是随机的，那么我们需要实际找到它。

And that to me is one of the bigger differences, most people build their sales process on probability, "If I get so many leads in, I'll convert so many to here to so many..." But the ultimate thing is, how many people are really ready for your product?

对我来说，这是更大的差异之一，大多数人都根据概率建立他们的销售流程，“如果我得到这么多线索，我会将这么多线索转换到这里……”但最终的问题是，有多少人真正准备好接受你的产品？

They have to actually be ready for it.

他们必须真正做好准备。

And that's what Jobs to Be Done is really about, is understanding where they are, what's causing it, and how do they make the trade-offs?

这就是“待完成的工作”的真正意义所在，了解它们在哪里，是什么导致了它，以及它们如何进行权衡？

Lenny: So let's follow that thread of interviewing and talking to your potential customers and customers to understand the jobs to be done.

莱尼：因此，让我们按照与潜在客户和客户进行访谈和交谈的思路来了解要完成的工作。

What is the actual process you recommend?

您推荐的实际流程是什么？

Bob Moesta: The first thing we do is we frame a question.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：我们做的第一件事就是提出一个问题。

And the way I think about it is most people, so the one thing to know about me is I've been building things for over 30 years, I've worked on 3,500 different products and services across many, many industries, but I've had three close head brain injuries before I was seven years old and I can't read and I can't write.

我的想法是大多数人的，所以关于我的一件事需要了解的是，我已经创建了 30 多年的东西，我在许多行业从事过 3,500 种不同的产品和服务，但我在 7 岁之前曾遭受过 3 次头部​​严重损伤，我无法阅读，也无法写作。

And so one of the things for me is that I could not understand the research that I would get from marketing around basically they'd say, "Hey, I need something that's easy, fast and fun and cheap." And I'd be like, "Okay, what does any of that mean?

所以对我来说，一件事是我无法理解我从营销中得到的研究，基本上他们会说，“嘿，我需要一些简单、快速、有趣和便宜的东西。”我会说，“好吧，这是什么意思？

What is fast?

什么是快？

How fast is fast and what's not fast?" And you start to undo all those things.

多快才算快，什么才不快呢？”然后你开始撤销所有这些事情。

Bob Moesta: And so the first thing we do is we start to frame, let's just talk about what causes people to say today's the day they want to go on vacation or today's the day they wanted a new set of windows.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：所以我们做的第一件事就是开始框架，让我们谈谈是什么导致人们说今天是他们想要去度假的一天，或者今天是他们想要一组新窗户的一天。

And you start to frame around that, and then you go find people who recently purchased and say, "What in the world happened that says today's the day I need new windows?" And you start to realize that there's pushes and there's pulls and there's anxieties and there's habits.

你开始围绕这个框架，然后你去找最近购买的人并说，“到底发生了什么，说今天是我需要新窗户的日子？”你开始意识到，有推力，有拉力，有焦虑，也有习惯。

And so the first thing we do is we try to extract the story from the customer.

因此，我们要做的第一件事就是尝试从客户那里提取故事。

And it doesn't have to be my product, it could be somebody else's product if I haven't built it yet.

它不一定是我的产品，如果我还没有构建它，它可能是别人的产品。

It's like, what are people going to fire when they hire me?

就像，当人们雇用我时会解雇我吗？

Bob Moesta: And so when we get the stories though, then the stories are going to get us the pushes, the pulls, the anxieties and the habits, the trade-offs and what we call the hire and fire criteria.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：所以当我们得到这些故事时，这些故事就会给我们带来推动、拉动、焦虑、习惯、权衡以及我们所说的雇佣和解雇标准。

And then what we do is instead of trying to look for themes across all of them, we actually do something, instead of segmenting them, we cluster them, we find the pathways because what you start to realize is it's not one reason why people do it, it's sets of reasons.

然后我们所做的不是试图在所有这些主题中寻找主题，而是实际上做一些事情，而不是对它们进行细分，我们将它们聚类，我们找到路径，因为你开始意识到这不是人们这样做的一个原因，而是一系列原因。

And those sets actually work together.

这些集合实际上可以协同工作。

So the pushes work with the pulls.

所以推力与拉力一起工作。

So when they have these pushes, they want these pulls.

因此，当他们有这些推动力时，他们就想要这些拉力。

And when they don't have these pushes, they don't want those pulls.

当他们没有这些推动力时，他们就不需要这些拉力。

Bob Moesta: And so when you start to see the patterns and you start to pull it out, you start to realize that most companies or most products are hired to do 3, 4, 5 different jobs and they're in conflict with each other.

Bob Moesta：所以当你开始看到这些模式并开始将其拉出来时，你开始意识到大多数公司或大多数产品都被雇用来做 3、4、5 种不同的工作，而它们彼此之间是冲突的。

One person wants to go faster and one person wants to be more thorough.

一个人想走得更快，一个人想走得更彻底。

And so all of a sudden being more thorough means it's slower.

所以突然间变得更彻底意味着速度变慢。

If I say we're thorough, the people who want it fast say, "I don't want this because it's too slow." So how do you frame those things out and understand where the conflicts are behind it and think about different products from it?

如果我说我们很彻底，那些想要快速实现的人会说：“我不想要这个，因为它太慢了。”那么，你如何把这些事情列出来，理解其背后的冲突在哪里，并从中思考不同的产品呢？

Bob Moesta: That's what Intercom did, right?

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：Intercom 就是这么做的，对吧？

Intercom realized that people hired it for four very, very different reasons and then instead of building four different products, they literally took their product and turned off the features that were not relevant to the pathway that people wanted to take.

Intercom 意识到人们出于四个非常非常不同的原因而使用它，然后他们没有构建四种不同的产品，而是真正地采用了他们的产品并关闭了与人们想要采用的途径不相关的功能。

So for acquire, they didn't need a whole bunch of these other features and so they actually framed it around basically, how do we help people convert?

因此，对于获取，他们不需要一大堆其他功能，因此他们实际上基本上围绕着我们如何帮助人们进行转换？

And that job actually competed with HubSpot.

而这项工作实际上是与 HubSpot 竞争的。

Bob Moesta: There's another one where it was about helping with support, and that one competed with Zendesk.

Bob Moesta：还有另一种是关于提供支持的，它与 Zendesk 竞争。

And so they changed the pricing model to basically match who the competition was and to match the progress that people were trying to make because Zendesk was too much and too hard, and HubSpot felt like it was an overkill for where people were.

因此，他们改变了定价模式，以基本上匹配竞争对手，并匹配人们试图取得的进步，因为 Zendesk 太多、太难，而 HubSpot 觉得这对于人们所处的位置来说是一种杀伤力。

We basically figured out how to actually position ourselves as a good next step between HubSpot adds nothing or between nothing and HubSpot.

我们基本上弄清楚了如何将自己定位为 HubSpot 不添加任何内容或不添加任何内容与 HubSpot 之间的良好下一步。

And that's how they've grown to be valued over 2 billion.

这就是他们的估值如何增长到超过 20 亿美元的原因。

Lenny: I have a follow-up question, but did you say that you can't read and write?

莱尼：我有一个后续问题，但你是说你不会读写吗？

Bob Moesta: Yeah, can't read and write.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：是的，不会读写。

So the thing is I cannot read the words that I write and I cannot read...

所以问题是我看不懂我写的字，我也看不懂……

So if somebody reads it to me, I can actually play it back.

所以如果有人读给我听，我实际上可以回放它。

So I'll listen to audio.

那我就听听音频吧。

But the fact is the way I was taught to read is so that when I look at a paragraph, I see the spaces between the words first, and then I usually see the left-hand edge of the words, so the last three letters.

但事实是，我被教导阅读的方式是，当我看一个段落时，我首先看到单词之间的空格，然后我通常会看到单词的左边缘，最后三个字母。

And so my mom taught me to look at the five largest words on the page by circling the longest words on the page.

所以我妈妈教我通过圈出页面上最长的单词来查看页面上五个最大的单词。

And then I would study those and translate those and then figure out what those five words would have in common.

然后我会研究这些并翻译它们，然后找出这五个词的共同点。

Because for me, the part that's broken in my brain is that I can't look up things fast enough.

因为对我来说，我大脑中的问题是我无法足够快地查找事物。

So by the time I try to look at a word, figure out what it is, get the definition, I've literally forgotten every word before it.

因此，当我尝试查看一个单词、弄清楚它是什么、获取定义时，我实际上已经忘记了它之前的每个单词。

Lenny: Damn.

莱尼：该死。

How are you writing books?

你写书怎么样？

Bob Moesta: It's a gift.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：这是一份礼物。

I'm telling you, it's a gift.

我告诉你，这是一份礼物。

It's a gift I'd never wish upon my children.

这是我永远不会希望给我的孩子们的礼物。

But to be honest, it's given me abilities to see patterns in so many different ways because I can remember the first five words in the first paragraph and the last five words in the last paragraph so I turned through a book three or four times, and I have as good a comprehension as everybody else.

但说实话，它让我有能力以多种不同的方式看待模式，因为我可以记住第一段的前五个单词和最后一段的最后五个单词，所以我把一本书翻了三四遍，我的理解力和其他人一样好。

Lenny: This is insane.

莱尼：这太疯狂了。

How are you writing books?

你写书怎么样？

Bob Moesta: It's really simple, I have a company called Scribe Media, and what we do is first thing we do is we look for what struggling moments do people have?

Bob Moesta：这真的很简单，我有一家名为 Scribe Media 的公司，我们做的第一件事就是寻找人们有哪些挣扎的时刻？

We then look at what are the competitive books wrapped around it?

然后我们看看围绕它的竞争书籍有哪些？

I then basically outline what progress looks like.

然后我基本上概述了进展情况。

We then take each chapter and define it as a system and what we have to do in each chapter to help them make the progress along the way.

然后，我们将每一章定义为一个系统，以及我们在每一章中必须做的事情，以帮助他们一路前进。

And then we just talk and we talk, we have ten two hour sessions, they get recorded, and then somebody basically takes...

然后我们就一直聊啊聊，我们有十个两个小时的会议，他们被记录下来，然后有人基本上...

So if you listen or read any of my books, it sounds like me talking because it is.

因此，如果你听或读我的任何一本书，听起来就像我在说话，因为事实就是如此。

Bob Moesta: And so I can get a book out in three and a half, four months.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：所以我可以在三个半四个月内出版一本书。

Bob Moesta: And so now I'm a teacher, I'm adjunct lecturer at the Kellogg School at Northwestern, and then I guest lecture on the East Coast in kind of different business schools, and then I help Techstars and Y Combinator.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：现在我是一名教师，西北大学凯洛格学院的兼职讲师，然后我在东海岸不同的商学院做客座演讲，然后我为 Techstars 和 Y Combinator 提供帮助。

So I'm really moving myself into being into, I feel it's time to pass on.

所以我真的正在让自己融入其中，我觉得是时候离开了。

I've had some amazing mentors who helped me, and again, I was told to be a baggage handler or a construction worker when I graduated high school, and my mom thought I could do more.

我有一些很棒的导师帮助了我，高中毕业时，我再次被告知要成为一名行李搬运工或建筑工人，我妈妈认为我可以做得更多。

And so I met these people who poured their knowledge into me to enable me to do all this stuff so now I'm trying to pay it forward as much as I can.

所以我遇到了这些人，他们向我倾注了他们的知识，使我能够做所有这些事情，所以现在我正在尽我所能地把它传下去。

So that's one of the reasons why I do as many podcasts as I can.

这就是我尽可能多地制作播客的原因之一。

So again, I appreciate you having me.

再次，我很感谢你有我。

Lenny: Yeah, this is a great opportunity to pass it on and so I'm very happy we're doing that.

莱尼：是的，这是一个传递它的好机会，所以我很高兴我们这样做。

I had no idea about any of this about you, so thank you for sharing that.

我对你的这些一无所知，所以谢谢你的分享。

Bob Moesta: It's been fun.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：这很有趣。

I pinched myself.

我掐了自己一下。

The other part is I don't know how I got here.

另一部分是我不知道我是怎么来到这里的。

One of the things that I've been doing is I've been studying people for the last 10 years around why they switched from one company to another to literally understand the jobs of jobs because employees actually hire companies more than companies hire employees.

我一直在做的一件事是，在过去的十年里，我一直在研究人们为什么从一家公司跳槽到另一家公司，以真正理解工作的工作内容，因为员工实际上雇佣公司的次数多于公司雇佣员工的次数。

And so you start to realize the struggling moment is why don't we have enough people?

所以你开始意识到，苦苦挣扎的时刻是为什么我们没有足够的人手？

And otherwise I want to leave, but I don't know how to leave.

否则我想离开，但我不知道如何离开。

And so I'm in the midst of writing a book around that right now with Michael Horn and Ethan Bernstein.

所以我现在正在与迈克尔·霍恩（Michael Horn）和伊森·伯恩斯坦（Ethan Bernstein）一起写一本围绕这个问题的书。

Lenny: Is there an insight from that work that you can share about why people leave jobs or join jobs?

莱尼：您可以从这项工作中分享一些关于人们为何离职或加入工作的见解吗？

Bob Moesta: So the number one thing that I would say is almost everybody when you ask them about how they got the job they're in, the number one phrase you get is, "It was so lucky.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：所以我要说的第一件事是，当你问几乎每个人如何获得现在的工作时，你得到的第一句话是，“太幸运了。

I was so lucky, just happened to fall in my lap." And then when you actually unpack the story, luck had nothing to do with it.

我太幸运了，刚好落在我腿上。”当你真正解开这个故事时，你会发现运气与它无关。

They were prepped, they were ready, there was pushes, there were pulls, there was anxieties, they were able to do it.

他们做好了准备，他们准备好了，有推动，有拉动，有焦虑，他们能够做到。

And you start to realize, and the funny part is that if I talked to somebody who's been through three or four kind of switches, they all can say, "Yep, I've had that job.

你开始意识到，有趣的是，如果我和经历过三到四次转变的人交谈，他们都会说，“是的，我做过那份工作。

Yep, I've had that job.

是的，我有过那份工作。

Yep, I've had that." And so there's frames around basically understanding what progress are you really trying to make now?

是的，我已经经历过了。”因此，有一些框架基本上可以理解您现在真正想要取得什么进展？

Is it, do I need balance?

是吗，我需要平衡吗？

Am I not challenged enough?

我的挑战还不够吗？

Bob Moesta: And you start to frame it, and when you frame it, you start to realize, I'm willing to actually take less money to be around smarter people because I want to be a founder later.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：你开始构建它，当你构建它时，你开始意识到，我实际上愿意花更少的钱来和更聪明的人在一起，因为我想以后成为一名创始人。

And so you start to realize that all of these things where we think we have to pay more money, over 50% of the people who got new jobs didn't get more money.

所以你开始意识到，所有这些我们认为我们必须支付更多钱的事情，超过 50% 的找到新工作的人并没有得到更多钱。

It's a lie.

这是一个谎言。

It's about progress.

这是关于进步的。

It's about what do they want to learn?

这是关于他们想学什么？

What skills do they want to get?

他们想获得什么技能？

At some point it's about money, but it's not always about money.

在某些时候，它与金钱有关，但并不总是与金钱有关。

Bob Moesta: And the other interesting part is when you talk about money, we talk about this notion of unpacking.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：另一个有趣的部分是，当你谈论金钱时，我们谈论拆包的概念。

We'll say, "Well, why do you need more money?" It's like, "Well, I have larger obligations," or, "I want more money because I want more respect." And so what you realize is in the hiring and firing criteria, they talk about money, but money actually has a bigger effect than just money.

我们会说：“那么，为什么你需要更多的钱呢？”就像，“嗯，我有更大的义务”，或者“我想要更多的钱，因为我想要更多的尊重。”所以你意识到在招聘和解雇标准中，他们谈论金钱，但金钱实际上比金钱有更大的影响。

It's about respect or it's about responsibility or it's about their metric of progress.

这是关于尊重，或者是关于责任，或者是关于他们的进步衡量标准。

There's a whole bunch of things, but it's not just money.

有很多东西，但不仅仅是钱。

That's the interesting part.

这是有趣的部分。

Lenny: Yeah, I've definitely done that myself, there's a status component to your job.

莱尼：是的，我自己确实这么做过，你的工作有地位成分。

Bob Moesta: Yeah, I want the title, right?

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：是的，我想要这个头衔，对吧？

Happens all the time.

一直在发生。

Lenny: I want to come back to the discussion we were just having around interviewing people to understand the jobs to be done.

莱尼：我想回到我们刚才围绕采访人员以了解要完成的工作进行的讨论。

And a bunch of people on LinkedIn were trying to understand just tactically what they need to get right in order to get accurate jobs.

LinkedIn 上的一群人试图从战术上了解他们需要做些什么才能获得准确的工作。

So I guess, are there just a couple tactics you'd recommend for how to interview people?

所以我想，对于如何采访别人，您是否会推荐一些策略？

Bob Moesta: Let me give you three tips.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：让我给你三个建议。

The first tip I'd tell you is go read Never Split The Difference by Chris Voss.

我要告诉你的第一个建议是去阅读 Chris Voss 的《Never Split The Difference》。

I started to write a book around basically techniques that I learned back in the eighties and nineties around this, and his book is amazing around it, the whole notion of getting to know.

我开始写一本围绕我在八十年代和九十年代学到的基本技术的书，他的书围绕着它，即了解的整个概念，令人惊叹。

I play things back incorrectly because they're going to say no, and I'm going to say, "All right, fix it," and then they'll talk more.

我会错误地回放事情，因为他们会拒绝，我会说，“好吧，解决它”，然后他们会说更多。

The moment somebody says yes, there's nothing more to say.

当有人说“是”的时候，就没有什么可说的了。

And so there's a bunch of techniques you have to learn to basically get them talking.

所以你必须学习很多技巧才能让他们开口说话。

Bob Moesta: The second is I only talk to people who have already tried to make the progress, right?

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：第二，我只与那些已经尝试取得进展的人交谈，对吗？

So for example, people talk about like, "Well, you can't apply this to something that's new.

例如，人们会说，“嗯，你不能将其应用到新的东西上。

It doesn't exist." So I worked with a company that was, let's say a fairly large social media company, and at some point in time they found people kind of transacting on their platform, but they didn't know anything about it and they hadn't built anything.

它不存在。”因此，我与一家公司合作，假设是一家相当大的社交媒体公司，在某个时候，他们发现人们在他们的平台上进行交易，但他们对此一无所知，也没有建立任何东西。

And what they ended up doing is we ended up going and studying eBay and Etsy and what caused somebody to say, "Today's the day I'm going to set up an eBay store or sell something on Craigslist." And out of that, we found all the jobs of what people, both sellers were doing and buyers were doing, and now I think it's I think almost a $3 billion marketplace that didn't exist and they learned about it all from the competitors.

他们最终做的是我们最终去研究 eBay 和 Etsy，这导致有人说，“今天是我要开设一家 eBay 商店或在 Craigslist 上出售东西的日子。”由此，我们找到了人们、卖家和买家正在做的所有工作，现在我认为这是一个几乎不存在的 30 亿美元市场，他们从竞争对手那里了解到了这一切。

Lenny: Sounds like Facebook Marketplace, maybe?

Lenny：听起来像是 Facebook Marketplace，也许？

No comment?

没有意见？

Lenny: How many interviews do you recommend people do to get to a confident?

莱尼：你建议人们进行多少次访谈才能获得自信？

Bob Moesta: That's a great controversial question.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：这是一个很有争议的问题。

The interesting part is from a causal mechanism perspective and from a set theory perspective, meaning the sets of pushes, pulls anxieties and habits, it starts to repeat around seven or eight.

有趣的部分是从因果机制的角度和集合论的角度来看，即推、拉、焦虑和习惯的集合，它开始重复大约七八次。

And I usually do 10, no more than 12.

我通常做10个，不超过12个。

And I would rather do two rounds of 12 interviews than do 24 interviews.

而且我宁愿做两轮 12 次面试，也不愿做 24 次面试。

I had some really interesting mentors, one of them was Dr. Deming, who's the father of lean and quality systems and like that.

我有一些非常有趣的导师，其中之一是戴明博士，他是精益和质量体系之父。

And so he would always push me to basically how to do things faster and smaller.

所以他总是会督促我如何更快、更小地做事。

And so that's where a lot of it came.

所以这就是很多事情的来源。

And you just realize that people will say, "Oh, we have to do something statistically significant." Well, you do if you're doing it randomly, but if you actually understand the range of your market and you know that 50% of it is above 30 years old and 50% is below 30 years old, I could actually sample in a way that makes me get a good representation without having to actually do 50 interviews.

你就会意识到人们会说，“哦，我们必须做一些具有统计意义的事情。”好吧，如果你随机做的话，你会这样做，但如果你真正了解你的市场范围，并且你知道其中 50% 的年龄在 30 岁以上，50% 的年龄在 30 岁以下，我实际上可以采用一种让我获得良好代表性的方式进行抽样，而无需实际进行 50 次采访。

And so we use something called design experiments to help with that.

因此，我们使用一种称为设计实验的方法来帮助实现这一目标。

Lenny: I love the concrete numbers.

莱尼：我喜欢具体的数字。

And so along those lines, when you're actually asking questions of people, do you have any best practices and ways of phrasing a question to get a response you can trust?

因此，沿着这些思路，当您实际向人们提问时，您是否有任何最佳实践和表达问题的方式以获得您可以信任的答复？

Bob Moesta: In a lot of cases, you have to look at it from multiple perspectives.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：在很多情况下，你必须从多个角度来看待它。

And so the other tip I have is to not have a discussion guide.

所以我的另一个建议是不要有讨论指南。

It drives people crazy because everybody wants to ask the same set of questions, but the problem happens is when you ask the same set of questions, you actually don't follow the ones that actually have the most meaningful information in it, right?

它让人们发疯，因为每个人都想问同一组问题，但问题是，当你问同一组问题时，你实际上并没有遵循那些实际上包含最有意义信息的问题，对吗？

And so what happens is, what I say is I use the framework of pushes, pulls, anxieties and habits and say, "What caused them to do this?" And everything else is just a conversation of trying to understand their story.

所以发生的事情是，我所说的是我使用推、拉、焦虑和习惯的框架并说，“是什么导致他们这样做？”其他一切都只是试图理解他们的故事的对话。

Bob Moesta: And so part of this is being able to ask the questions around why, but you can't ask "Why, why, why, why why?" It's like, "Tell me more about that.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：所以其中一部分是能够提出有关“为什么”的问题，但你不能问“为什么，为什么，为什么，为什么为什么？”就像是，“告诉我更多相关信息。

Give me an example." And in a lot of cases, I usually get them to what I call the edge of language where they have no more language, and what I do is I literally then bracket it, "So was it more about this or more about that?" And I know it's neither one of those, and it forces them to talk more, right?

给我举个例子。”在很多情况下，我通常会让他们到达我所说的语言边缘，在那里他们没有更多的语言，我所做的就是我字面上然后将其括起来，“所以更多的是关于这个还是更多关于那个？”我知道这两者都不是，这迫使他们多说，对吧？

It's always trying to get them to know, because the moment I get to...

它总是试图让他们知道，因为当我...

So when I play it back, "So you did this and this and this and this," and say, "No, that wasn't it." And the people who I'm working with are like, "You know that's not the right answer," I'm like, "I know, but they're going to elaborate on why it's not that." And so it's literally being able to reveal kind of the causal mechanisms of why people do what they do.

所以当我回放时，“所以你做了这个、这个、这个、这个”，然后说：“不，不是那样的。”和我一起工作的人会说，“你知道这不是正确的答案”，我会说，“我知道，但他们会详细说明为什么不是这样。”所以它确实能够揭示人们为什么做他们所做的事情的因果机制。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Eppo.

Lenny：这一集是 Eppo 为您带来的。

Eppo is a next generation AB testing platform built by Airbnb alums from modern growth teams, companies like DraftKings, Zapier, ClickUp, Twitch and Cameo rely on Eppo to power their experiments.

Eppo 是下一代 AB 测试平台，由来自现代增长团队的 Airbnb 校友构建，DraftKings、Zapier、ClickUp、Twitch 和 Cameo 等公司都依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。

Wherever you work, running experiments is increasingly essential, but there are no commercial tools that integrate with a modern growth team stack.

无论您在哪里工作，进行实验都变得越来越重要，但是没有可以与现代增长团队堆栈集成的商业工具。

This leads to wasted time building internal tools or trying to run your own experiments through a clunky marketing tool.

这会导致浪费时间构建内部工具或尝试通过笨重的营销工具进行自己的实验。

When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved most about working there was our experimentation platform where I was able to slice and dice data by device types, country, user stage.

当我在 Airbnb 工作时，我最喜欢在那里工作的事情之一就是我们的实验平台，我可以在其中按设备类型、国家/地区、用户阶段对数据进行切片和切块。

Eppo, does all that and more delivering results quickly, avoiding annoying prolonged analytic cycles and helping you easily get to the root cause of any issue you discover.

Eppo 可以完成所有这些任务，并快速提供结果，避免烦人的长时间分析周期，并帮助您轻松找到所发现问题的根本原因。

Eppo lets you go beyond click through metrics and instead use your north star metrics like activation, retention, subscription and payments.

Eppo 让您不仅可以使用点击量指标，还可以使用激活、保留、订阅和付款等北极星指标。

Eppo supports tests on the front end, on the backend, email marketing, even machine learning claims.

Eppo 支持前端、后端、电子邮件营销、甚至机器学习声明的测试。

Check out Eppo at geteppo.com, that's geteppo.com and 10x your experiment velocity.

在 geteppo.com 上查看 Eppo，这是 geteppo.com，它是您实验速度的 10 倍。

Lenny: When I think about Jobs to Be Done, I've never fully implemented any sort of structured framework, but I find that it's been really useful in my newsletter work and my podcast work, just thinking about what is the job my newsletter is doing for people?

Lenny：当我想到“待完成的工作”时，我从未完全实现过任何类型的结构化框架，但我发现它在我的时事通讯工作和播客工作中非常有用，只要想想我的时事通讯为人们做了什么工作？

For me, it's helping people get better at the craft of building and growing products.

对我来说，它帮助人们更好地制造和种植产品。

And I just think of it, there's these buckets of jobs to be done and then there's this formal, "Let's just do it for real." I guess, one, do you find that to be true?

我只是想到，有这么多工作要做，然后就正式地说：“让我们真正地去做吧。”我想，第一，你认为这是真的吗？

There's the very simple and there's the more official?

有非常简单的，还有更官方的？

Bob Moesta: So what I would say is I find a lot of founders, especially really successful founders, like I would say Jason Fried is one of those where he intuitively understood this.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：所以我想说的是，我发现很多创始人，尤其是真正成功的创始人，就像我想说的杰森·弗里德（Jason Fried）就是他直观地理解这一点的人之一。

He actually thinks this way but didn't have language wrapped around it, right?

他实际上是这么想的，但没有语言来表达，对吗？

So I think that it's a very useful framework.

所以我认为这是一个非常有用的框架。

I think that the danger you run into is that when you look at the customer through the product, so if I look at the customers through the Snickers bar, then I think of Milky Way as a competitor.

我认为你遇到的危险是，当你通过产品来看待顾客时，所以如果我通过士力架来看待顾客，那么我就会把银河视为竞争对手。

But if I look at the customer and say, "Why did they pick that thing?" Then I realize that a protein shake and an apple and a sandwich are the competitors not Milky Way.

但如果我看着顾客说：“他们为什么选择那个东西？”然后我意识到蛋白质奶昔、苹果和三明治是竞争对手，而不是银河系。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

So say someone wanted to start going in this direction of Jobs to Be Done, what is the simplest, I don't know, first version, lightweight approach to starting to think this way?

那么，假设有人想开始朝“待完成的工作”这个方向前进，那么最简单的、我不知道的、第一个版本、轻量级的方法是什么来开始以这种方式思考？

Bob Moesta: So there's two things.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：所以有两件事。

If I have a product, go find 10 people who recently bought your product, but what I want you do is go talk to them, not about the product, but about why they bought the product, what was going on, what were they hoping for, what were they worried about?

如果我有一个产品，去找 10 个最近购买了你的产品的人，但我希望你做的是和他们交谈，不是谈论产品，而是谈论他们为什么购买该产品，发生了什么，他们希望什么，他们担心什么？

What did they have to give up?

他们必须放弃什么？

How did they convince somebody else?

他们是如何说服别人的？

Just listen to the story.

就听听这个故事吧。

Start with just getting the story.

从了解故事开始。

Bob Moesta: Because there's three levels of information we have to get or three sources of energy that I talk about.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：因为我们必须获得三个层次的信息，或者我所说的三种能量来源。

So think about it as there's got to be energy in the system for us to do something.

所以想一想，系统中必须有能量才能让我们做某事。

And there's what I call functional energy, which is usually time, space, effort, knowledge, right?

还有我所说的功能能量，通常是时间、空间、努力、知识，对吧？

There's emotional energy, which is how I feel.

有情感能量，这就是我的感受。

I want to feel better, I feel frustrated, I feel overlooked.

我想要感觉更好，我感到沮丧，我感到被忽视。

There's emotional aspects to it.

其中有情感方面的因素。

And then there's social aspects, how I want others to perceive me or how others perceive me, "Oh, my boss is going to fire me because he doesn't think I'm doing this fast enough and I feel inadequate." So part of his understanding kind of the emotional, social and functional components that are part of that energy source.

然后还有社交方面，我希望别人如何看待我，或者别人如何看待我，“哦，我的老板要解雇我，因为他认为我做得不够快，而且我觉得自己不够格。”因此，他对情感、社交和功能成分的理解是能量来源的一部分。

Bob Moesta: The second part is if it's an established product and it's been there a while, I'd actually go and talk to people who churned.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：第二部分是，如果它是一个成熟的产品并且已经存在了一段时间，我实际上会去和那些流失的人交谈。

Because in churn, what's interesting is when somebody leaves your product, they're still making progress.

因为在流失中，有趣的是当有人离开你的产品时，他们仍然在进步。

We think it's bad for us, which it probably is, but in their mind it's like, "Yeah, this was too hard and complicated," or, "You know what?

我们认为这对我们不利，可能确实如此，但在他们看来，“是的，这太难和复杂了”，或者“你知道吗？

It didn't do enough for us." It allows you to actually understand the struggling moment they had because, again, they were using your product and something happened and some context changed and now they struggle with it, and now they got to go find something else.

这对我们来说还不够。”它可以让你真正理解他们所经历的挣扎时刻，因为他们再次使用你的产品，发生了一些事情，一些环境发生了变化，现在他们为此苦苦挣扎，现在他们必须去寻找其他东西。

Bob Moesta: Nobody wants to change.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：没有人愿意改变。

So that makes this actually the easiest thing to look at is tell me why people change.

所以这实际上是最容易看的事情，那就是告诉我人们为什么会改变。

We just seem to literally not want to go deep enough and we use the lazy word of random and probability as pseudo for knowledge, and it's not knowledge.

我们似乎只是字面上不想深入得足够深，我们使用随机和概率这个懒惰的词作为知识的伪语，但这不是知识。

It's literally just if context is the same, if outcomes is the same, then I can do it.

从字面上看，如果上下文相同，如果结果相同，那么我就能做到。

But if I listen to football stats, third down in preseason is very different than third down in playoffs, right?

但如果我听一下足球统计数据，季前赛第三落后与季后赛第三落后有很大不同，对吗？

And so giving me a stat about how their third down conversion is across the whole season makes no sense to me because the context is different.

因此，给我一个有关整个赛季第三次向下转换的统计数据对我来说毫无意义，因为背景不同。

Lenny: You brought up this point that people often say they really hate something and it comes across that they're ready to switch and will use something that you've built that's better, but they don't because of that friction you mentioned.

莱尼：你提到了这一点，人们经常说他们真的讨厌某些东西，但事实证明他们已经准备好转换并会使用你构建的更好的东西，但他们不会因为你提到的摩擦而这样做。

What do you look for that might tell you that they're really actually going to use it for real and it's that serious?

您要寻找什么才能告诉您他们真的会真正使用它并且是那么认真？

Bob Moesta: The very first thing I would say is I never trust anybody telling me things they're going to do because they can't assure it, and it usually never happens.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：我要说的第一件事是，我从不相信任何人告诉我他们将要做的事情，因为他们无法保证这一点，而这通常永远不会发生。

It's my experience that says that.

我的经验就是这么说的。

And so the thing is, I need to talk to people who did something and tried and though they might've failed, what made them try?

所以问题是，我需要与那些做过某事并尝试过的人交谈，尽管他们可能失败了，是什么让他们尝试的？

So the phrase I have 'Bitchin' ain't switchin'." Just because people bitch about something doesn't mean they're going to do anything about it.

所以我说的‘Bitchin’这句话是不会改变的。”仅仅因为人们抱怨某件事并不意味着他们会对此采取任何行动。

This is where at Basecamp, we learned the fact that everybody said, "Oh, if you had Gantt charts, I'm going to leave you if you don't put Gantt charts in or resource allocation," and as much as they all say they want it, they're not leaving because of it.

在 Basecamp，我们了解到每个人都说，“哦，如果你有甘特图，如果你不放入甘特图或资源分配，我就会离开你”，尽管他们都说他们想要它，但他们不会因此而离开。

Bob Moesta: And this is the other part, if you follow your best users, they'll take you up to this world that then actually destroys the lower end of the world of why people are there.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：这是另一部分，如果你跟随最好的用户，他们会带你进入这个世界，然后实际上摧毁人们存在的低端世界。

And so if Basecamp would've added all those things, one of the reasons why people join Basecamp is because it's so dang simple.

因此，如果 Basecamp 能够添加所有这些内容，那么人们加入 Basecamp 的原因之一就是因为它非常简单。

And if I start to add all these things that make it more complicated, it doesn't work.

如果我开始添加所有这些使其变得更加复杂的东西，那就行不通了。

Lenny: And so in those conversations, is there something you find that just this is a sign they're actually really serious, or do you just like, "I'm not going to listen to anything they're saying in this case until we actually build it and they're using it"?

莱尼：那么在这些对话中，你是否发现这表明他们真的很认真，或者你只是喜欢，“在我们真正建造它并且他们正在使用它之前，我不会听他们在这种情况下说的任何话”？

Bob Moesta: So for example, in the first five minutes of an interview, they're going to tell you, "I bought a new car because I got a deal on it and it was a car I've been dreaming about forever," and it's like they have all these things and then when you start to get to, it's like, no, the old car had 280,000 miles on it.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：举个例子，在采访的前五分钟，他们会告诉你，“我买了一辆新车，因为我得到了一笔交易，这是一辆我一直梦想着的车，”就像他们拥有所有这些东西，然后当你开始做的时候，就像，不，那辆旧车已经行驶了 280,000 英里。

You had three large bills in the last four months.

过去四个月里你有三张大额账单。

The fact is it's making a sound and you've got a long trip coming up, that's why you're getting a car.

The fact is it's making a sound and you've got a long trip coming up, that's why you're getting a car.

You're not getting the car because of the deal.

因为这笔交易，你拿不到车。

And so there's these, I call it the layers of language.

所以就有了这些，我称之为语言的层次。

And the very first layer is called the pablum layer, where people just, "How was your day?" "Oh, it was good," but nobody knows what that means.

第一层称为“pablum 层”，人们只是问“今天过得怎么样？” “哦，这很好，”但没有人知道这意味着什么。

And if you ask one further question, "Well, what was good about it?" They're like, "Ugh."

如果你再问一个问题：“那么，它有什么好处呢？”他们就像，“呃”。

Bob Moesta: And then you get to the next layer, the next layer is usually the fantasy nightmare layer, "Oh, it was so good because of this," or, "Oh my God, it was so bad because..." They exaggerate to one degree or the next.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：然后你进入下一层，下一层通常是幻想噩梦层，“哦，因为这个所以太好了，”或者，“哦天哪，太糟糕了因为......”他们夸张到一个或另一个程度。

And then what you want to do is actually then pull it back to what actually happened.

然后你想做的实际上就是把它拉回到实际发生的事情上。

This is where you've got to be more of an investigator and an interrogator.

在这里，你必须扮演更多的调查员和审讯者的角色。

And the way I would describe it is it's criminal and intelligence interrogation that feels like therapy because most people don't actually know why they bought because they only think about the time they wrote the check, swiped the card.

我描述它的方式是，刑事和情报审讯感觉就像一种治疗，因为大多数人实际上并不知道他们为什么购买，因为他们只考虑他们写支票、刷卡的时间。

But the reality is like I did an interview with somebody who bought a coat rack, $137 coat rack.

但现实就像我采访了一个买了衣帽架的人，137 美元的衣帽架。

It took them 18 months to buy it.

他们花了18个月才买下它。

And in their mind, they say they bought it in a week, but the reality is the debate about getting it and why they couldn't get it was happening for over 18 months.

在他们看来，他们说他们在一周内购买了它，但现实是关于获得它以及为什么他们无法获得它的争论已经发生了超过 18 个月。

So this is where you can't believe what they say, you have to do your investigation to get there.

所以这就是你不能相信他们所说的话，你必须进行调查才能到达那里。

Lenny: And what does that phrase use again for that vector of progress?

莱尼：这个短语又用什么来表示进步的向量呢？

Bob Moesta: The intention, it's the context that they're in and the outcome.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：意图，是他们所处的背景和结果。

So here's the thing is that most people talk about you want to get to this outcome and people value this outcome, but value is not just the outcome.

So here's the thing is that most people talk about you want to get to this outcome and people value this outcome, but value is not just the outcome.

Value also has where you start.

价值也有你的起点。

So if I start here and I end here, I'm going to value it this much.

因此，如果我从这里开始并从这里结束，我会非常重视它。

But if I start down here...

但如果我从这里开始...

Wait, I've got to get there, start down here, and I go up here, I value it that much more.

等等，我必须到达那里，从这里开始，然后我到这里上去，我更看重它。

And so part of it is value is actually part of where they're starting from and where they want to go.

因此，价值的一部分实际上是他们的出发点和想去的地方的一部分。

And most people say, "If I just get them up here, they're really going to love it," but some people say, "I just want to get here." And so you're overshooting it and they actually want a price discount because you're giving them more than they want.

And most people say, "If I just get them up here, they're really going to love it," but some people say, "I just want to get here."所以你做得太过分了，他们实际上想要价格折扣，因为你给他们的比他们想要的多。

Lenny: So I'm going to go in a different direction.

莱尼：所以我要朝不同的方向前进。

The most liked comment on LinkedIn asking people what question to ask you was by Sharam Krishnan, who's actually on this podcast in the past.

LinkedIn 上最受欢迎的评论是 Sharam Krishnan，他实际上以前就在这个播客上。

Bob Moesta: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：是啊，是啊，是啊。

I remember seeing it, I remember hearing it.

我记得见过，我记得听过。

By the way, I think it's one of the reasons why I reached out because I'm like, "Okay, we need to clarify this a little."

顺便说一句，我认为这是我伸出援手的原因之一，因为我想，“好吧，我们需要澄清一下。”

Lenny: Okay, great.

莱尼：好的，太好了。

So you saw the brand, he's not what you'd say a fan of Jobs to Be Done.

所以你看到了这个品牌，他并不是你所说的“Jobs to Be Done”的粉丝。

Lenny: And so here's the question he wanted to ask, "Is there a case of a startup or a modern technology company or any company that was using Jobs to Be Done to launch a product from zero to one that has had broad adoption?" That's his challenge.

莱尼：这就是他想问的问题：“是否有一家初创公司或一家现代科技公司或任何公司利用 Jobs to Be Done 推出一款从零到一的产品并得到广泛采用？”这就是他的挑战。

Bob Moesta: Inside the company or broad adoption that the product that we've developed had broad adoption?

Bob Moesta：在公司内部或广泛采用我们开发的产品得到了广泛采用？

Lenny: The latter, yeah, the product has done really well.

Lenny：后者，是的，产品做得非常好。

Bob Moesta: I already told you an example.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：我已经告诉过你一个例子。

I can't say it, but you can.

我不能说，但你可以。

The thing is, for example, Autobooks is another one that did this, right?

问题是，例如，Autobooks 是另一个这样做的公司，对吗？

They start to realize that the fact is you need to study the struggling moments and it helps you determine what not to build, right?

他们开始意识到，事实是您需要研究挣扎的时刻，这可以帮助您确定不应该构建什么，对吧？

Too many times we just keep adding more and more things to the product.

很多时候我们只是不断地向产品添加越来越多的东西。

And so in larger organizations it's very difficult because at some point the dominant market research is about hypothesis testing, "I'm going to go build a hypothesis and go basically then go build a research project to prove or disprove that hypothesis."

因此，在较大的组织中，这是非常困难的，因为在某些时候，占主导地位的市场研究是关于假设检验的，“我将建立一个假设，然后基本上然后建立一个研究项目来证明或反驳该假设。”

Bob Moesta: But the reality is, Jobs to Be Done research is hypothesis building research.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：但现实是，“待完成的工作”研究是假设构建研究。

I don't know, that's part of the point is we really don't know.

我不知道，部分原因是我们真的不知道。

We think we know, but Dr. Taguchi would always tell me there's way more unknown than there is known and never forget it.

我们认为我们知道，但田口博士总是告诉我，未知的事情比已知的还要多，而且永远不会忘记。

And so again, what causes people to buy windows is not what we think it is.

再说一次，人们购买窗户的原因并不是我们想象的那样。

And so you start to realize that.

所以你开始意识到这一点。

I think Drucker said it best, he goes, "What businesses think they're selling is not what customers are buying." And to be honest, he said that in 1953, and it's still true today.

我认为德鲁克说得最好，他说：“企业认为自己销售的产品并不是客户购买的产品。”说实话，他在 1953 年就说过这句话，现在仍然如此。

I just did interviews today where they're like, "Oh, people are buying for this reason," and we did 12 interviews and you started to realize, nope, that's not why they're buying.

我今天刚刚接受采访，他们会说，“哦，人们是因为这个原因购买的”，我们进行了 12 次采访，你开始意识到，不，这不是他们购买的原因。

And they're shocked.

他们很震惊。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay, so you didn't say it, but maybe Facebook Marketplace?

好吧，你没说，但也许是 Facebook Marketplace？

Bob Moesta: So Autobooks would be one, you're trying from zero to one from nothing, right?

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：所以 Autobooks 就是其中之一，你正在尝试从零到一，对吧？

Lenny: Yeah, brand new product is kind of the question there.

莱尼：是的，全新产品是个问题。

Bob Moesta: Yeah, so at Techstars we basically make sure that everybody, they come in, they usually don't have a product to start with, at least in the Chicago and San Francisco offices.

Bob Moesta：是的，所以在 Techstars，我们基本上确保每个人进来时通常都没有产品可以开始，至少在芝加哥和旧金山的办公室是这样。

We basically have do jobs in the very, very beginning of that.

我们基本上在一开始就已经做好了工作。

And we have companies like Nutrisense and Havoc Shield, and there's a whole bunch of them that are out there that are growing and going down that pathway.

我们有像 Nutrisense 和 Havoc Shield 这样的公司，还有一大堆公司正在成长并沿着这条道路走下去。

And so to me, it's very, very useful, especially in the zero to one space.

所以对我来说，它非常非常有用，尤其是在零到一的空间中。

Bob Moesta: But the notion is the way that I frame it is, what will people stop using when your product comes out?

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：但我的想法是，当你的产品问世时，人们会停止使用什么？

And that's who you want to go interview.

这就是你想要采访的人。

So for the Marketplace thing, it was like, "Hey, I want them to stop using Craigslist.

因此，对于 Marketplace 的事情，就像是，“嘿，我希望他们停止使用 Craigslist。

I want them to stop using eBay.

我希望他们停止使用 eBay。

I want them to stop using Etsy." If that's the case, what are they doing and how do I do it better than that so I can understand?

我希望他们停止使用 Etsy。”如果是这样的话，他们在做什么以及我如何做得更好以便我能够理解？

There are really no new jobs, it's just the fact is we get better at them.

实际上并没有什么新的工作，只是我们在这些方面做得更好了。

And so the hire and fire criteria get better, but the context and outcome, most jobs, I can look back 10 years in the job existed and I can look ahead 20 years and the job's going to exist.

因此，雇用和解雇标准变得更好，但背景和结果，大多数工作，我可以回顾 10 年的工作存在，我可以展望 20 年，该工作将会存在。

It's just the nature of how the technology delivers on it is what gets better.

技术的本质就是如何实现它，从而变得更好。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

And it sounds like Intercom and Basecamp also are very early Jobs to Be Done adopters?

听起来 Intercom 和 Basecamp 也是 Jobs to Be Done 的早期采用者？

Lenny: So I think with Sherom, something that I read between the lines is he worked at Twitter for many years and I think Twitter attempted at Jobs to Be Done framework, and I don't know if it went well and I think it just caused a lot of people to think this is a terrible framework.

Lenny：所以我认为 Sherom 的言外之意是他在 Twitter 工作了很多年，我认为 Twitter 尝试了 Jobs to Be Done 框架，我不知道它是否进展顺利，我认为这只是导致很多人认为这是一个糟糕的框架。

Bob Moesta: This is where I think there's different flavors of it.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：我认为这就是它有不同风格的地方。

And what I would say is that one flavor is really what I call very supply side driven, where it takes the underlying technology and then looks at it and says, "All right, what else can we do?

我想说的是，其中一种风格确实是我所说的非常供应方驱动的，它采用底层技术，然后审视它并说：“好吧，我们还能做什么？

Where can we be better?

我们可以在哪些方面做得更好？

Where are things that are important but we're not satisfying on them?" And being able to prioritize.

哪些事情是重要的，但我们对它们不满意？”并且能够确定优先顺序。

And so there's a very systematic approach that's hundreds of steps and very, very prescriptive in nature.

因此，有一种非常系统的方法，有数百个步骤，而且本质上非常非常规范。

Bob Moesta: The method that I have and that I've been using mostly because I've been in the startup world and doing new to the world type stuff is it's very, very qualitative, organic, and it's a combination of a process, practice and skills.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：我所拥有的方法，以及我一直在使用的方法，主要是因为我一直在创业世界中，做一些新的东西，它是非常非常定性的、有机的，它是过程、实践和技能的结合。

So every company actually has its own innovation process based on who they have, who they're serving, the underlying technology.

因此，每家公司实际上都有自己的创新流程，具体取决于他们拥有的人员、服务的对象以及底层技术。

And so, in my opinion, to have a very predictive one process that fits across everybody, I think there are principles, but I don't think there's one process.

因此，在我看来，要建立一个适合每个人的非常有预测性的流程，我认为有一些原则，但我不认为有一个流程。

And so I think that's what they used at Twitter.

所以我认为这就是他们在 Twitter 上使用的方式。

Bob Moesta: The other thing is that I think Jack was actually a big fan and he worked with Clay on a couple of things, but I don't think they worked on the method part of it, they worked on the thinking part of it.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：另一件事是，我认为杰克实际上是一个忠实的粉丝，他与克莱在一些事情上合作，但我不认为他们在方法部分工作，他们在思考部分工作。

And so it was more about, so one of the most dangerous things you can do is sit in a room and hypothesize what the jobs are because I will guarantee you you're 100% wrong.

所以它更多的是，所以你能做的最危险的事情之一就是坐在一个房间里假设工作是什么，因为我向你保证你100%错了。

And so this is what happens, by the way, this is the gift of dyslexia is I'm not an A student and so most A students don't start until they know the answer, most D students start because they don't know the answer.

所以这就是发生的事情，顺便说一句，这是阅读障碍的礼物，我不是 A 学生，所以大多数 A 学生在知道答案之前不会开始，大多数 D 学生开始是因为他们不知道答案。

And so you start to realize we're wired very differently to do that.

所以你开始意识到我们在做到这一点上的方式非常不同。

And so I always say that the A students have a disadvantage against the D students and entrepreneurship because we just go start and we learn right that in there.

所以我总是说，A 类学生相对于 D 类学生和创业精神来说处于劣势，因为我们只是开始，我们就在那里学到了这一点。

We don't have to hypothesize everything first because we actually don't know how to do that.

我们不必首先假设一切，因为我们实际上不知道该怎么做。

Lenny: So your advice there is essentially people often get Jobs to Be Done wrong because they just sit around and think about the Jobs to Be Done and aren't actually doing the work to interview and understand?

莱尼：所以你的建议是，人们经常把“待完成的工作”弄错，因为他们只是坐在那里思考“待完成的工作”，而没有真正做面试和理解的工作？

Bob Moesta: Yeah.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：是的。

They think more about the outcomes and they think about what's the best outcomes we can get for people.

他们更多地考虑结果，并考虑我们能为人们获得的最佳结果是什么。

And what you start to realize is that there are trade-offs people make.

你开始意识到人们会做出权衡。

And ultimately there's some irrational piece, some irrational component that makes everything twist around.

最终，有一些非理性的部分、一些非理性的成分让一切都变得扭曲。

The irrational component is like, why in the world do people eat Snickers when they're hungry?

非理性的部分就像，为什么人们在饥饿时吃士力架？

It's a candy bar.

这是一块糖果。

Well, it turns out when you bite it, it masticates into a ball and it sits in your stomach and it absorbs the acid that's causing you to say, "Hey, I got to eat something." And so part of it is the roll of the peanuts and the roll of the nougat is actually to masticate it together.

好吧，事实证明，当你咬它时，它会咀嚼成一个球，然后进入你的胃并吸收酸，这会让你说：“嘿，我得吃点东西。”所以一部分是花生卷，牛轧糖卷其实就是一起咀嚼的。

The caramel should be sticking it together versus in a Milky Way, the melting temperature of the caramel is so light that you take a bite, it's liquid, you drink it down, you swallow it like it's a drink, it has nothing to do with food.

The caramel should be sticking it together versus in a Milky Way, the melting temperature of the caramel is so light that you take a bite, it's liquid, you drink it down, you swallow it like it's a drink, it has nothing to do with food.

Bob Moesta: And so you start to realize that it's connecting the experiences to the context and outcome.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：所以你开始意识到它将体验与背景和结果联系起来。

It's connecting the supply side with the demand side, but it starts with the demand side first.

它把供给侧和需求侧连接起来，但首先是从需求侧开始。

Struggling moments and opportunities all exist before there's a product.

在产品出现之前，挣扎的时刻和机会都存在。

Bob Moesta: I bought a couple, but I didn't use them, but I bought a couple.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：我买了几个，但我没有使用它们，但我买了几个。

And I mean, you go deep into it, you start to realize that this is the crazy part, everybody thinks they compete, but if you literally go back to a moment when you picked up a Snickers bar, you were not thinking about a Milky Way.

我的意思是，你深入其中，你开始意识到这是疯狂的部分，每个人都认为他们在竞争，但如果你真的回到你拿起士力架的那一刻，你并没有想到银河系。

You weren't thinking of half the candy aisle, you were thinking of like, "Do I want a sandwich, or do I want a Snickers?" Half the reason why they picked Snickers is it's 300 calories, I can eat it in three bites, it's done, it's not messy, and I can keep working.

你考虑的不是一半的糖果货架，而是“我想要三明治，还是士力架？” Half the reason why they picked Snickers is it's 300 calories, I can eat it in three bites, it's done, it's not messy, and I can keep working.

It's mainlining food.

这是主线食物。

Lenny: I don't know if I've ever had a Milky Way to be honest.

莱尼：说实话，我不知道我是否曾经拥有过银河系。

Bob Moesta: That's the funny part is you go to all the big tech hubs in San Francisco and the Snickers are all empty and the Milky Ways are all full.

Bob Moesta: That's the funny part is you go to all the big tech hubs in San Francisco and the Snickers are all empty and the Milky Ways are all full.

Lenny: Yeah, I get that.

莱尼：是的，我明白了。

You mentioned that there's two different approaches or many different approaches to the Jobs to Be Done framework, and this is a question someone actually asked that there's maybe a framework by someone named Tony Ulwick, and then there's your approach, and then maybe Clay Christensen maybe has an approach.

You mentioned that there's two different approaches or many different approaches to the Jobs to Be Done framework, and this is a question someone actually asked that there's maybe a framework by someone named Tony Ulwick, and then there's your approach, and then maybe Clay Christensen maybe has an approach.

So can you just help clarify?

那你能帮忙澄清一下吗？

Bob Moesta: So Clay and I collaborated on it.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：所以克莱和我合作了这件事。

So I was lucky enough to have Clay as a mentor for 27 years, I met with him once a quarter for 27 years, and at some point I shared with him the hack of how I was thinking about this and what I was doing, and at some point he said, "We need to turn it into a theory." To me, it was more like my work around because I couldn't read and write, "Let me go talk to some people, I'll figure it out." And ultimately we turned it into a method.

所以我很幸运有克莱作为导师长达 27 年，27 年里我每季度会见他一次，在某个时候我与他分享了我如何思考这个问题以及我正在做什么的技巧，在某个时候他说，“我们需要把它变成一种理论。”对我来说，这更像是我的工作，因为我无法读写，“让我去和一些人谈谈，我会弄清楚的。”最终我们把它变成了一种方法。

So if you look at Competing Against Luck, it was written with Tady Hall and Karen Dillon, Dave Duncan, but I helped on that book for 16 months.

所以，如果你看看《与运气竞争》，它是由 Tady Hall、Karen Dillon、Dave Duncan 共同撰写的，但我为这本书提供了 16 个月的帮助。

Some of the clients in there are my clients.

那里的一些客户是我的客户。

I think Intercom is in that one.

我认为对讲机就在其中。

So Clay and I are aligned in that.

所以克莱和我在这一点上是一致的。

Clay was more about turning it to a theory and I would say I'm more about having it be a method.

克莱更多的是把它变成一种理论，我想说我更多的是让它成为一种方法。

So his is like a thinking framework and a philosophy and a strategic kind of frame where mine is very tactical about how do we get it and then what do we do with it.

So his is like a thinking framework and a philosophy and a strategic kind of frame where mine is very tactical about how do we get it and then what do we do with it.

Bob Moesta: Ulwick's comes from a very different perspective, and again, I think it's very valuable, but it comes from the notion of functions and it's more like, what can our product do?

Bob Moesta: Ulwick's comes from a very different perspective, and again, I think it's very valuable, but it comes from the notion of functions and it's more like, what can our product do?

What jobs can our product do?

我们的产品可以做什么工作？

As opposed to the way I look at it is basically only people have jobs, products don't have jobs, people have jobs, organizations don't have jobs, people in organizations have jobs because that's the irrational part.

与我的看法相反，基本上只有人有工作，产品没有工作，人有工作，组织没有工作，组织中的人有工作，因为这是非理性的部分。

And so fundamentally there's that two different views of how do we look at it, but ultimately I would say Clay's approach and my approach are derived from the same dataset where Ulwick's is derived from a different dataset and a different set of experiences.

And so fundamentally there's that two different views of how do we look at it, but ultimately I would say Clay's approach and my approach are derived from the same dataset where Ulwick's is derived from a different dataset and a different set of experiences.

Lenny: That's super interesting, I had no idea about this.

莱尼：这非常有趣，我对此一无所知。

And your sense is in the case of Twitter, for example, maybe it's closer to Clay's just think about it approach.

例如，你的感觉是 Twitter 的情况，也许它更接近 Clay 的 just think about it 方法。

Bob Moesta: Yep, I think that's right, I think that's right.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：是的，我认为是对的，我认为是对的。

And again, I think Ulwick's is very valuable, especially in some companies where there's lots of risk, there's regulation, there's lots of moving parts, very complicated systems, but at the same time it's so many steps.

And again, I think Ulwick's is very valuable, especially in some companies where there's lots of risk, there's regulation, there's lots of moving parts, very complicated systems, but at the same time it's so many steps.

You have to have a very disciplined organization to follow it.

你必须有一个非常有纪律的组织来遵循它。

Lenny: If someone wanted to start actually following through on this, which book would you recommend they start with to help them understand how to apply your approach?

Lenny: If someone wanted to start actually following through on this, which book would you recommend they start with to help them understand how to apply your approach?

Bob Moesta: I would have them read Demand Side Sales, and it basically is starting from the theory of why do people buy and how do we actually understand how to flip the lens from trying to sell people things to help them buy?

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：我会让他们阅读需求侧销售，它基本上是从人们为什么购买的理论开始的，以及我们如何真正理解如何翻转镜头，从试图向人们出售东西来帮助他们购买？

And ultimately it has the entire method around it kind of frame for product and for founders.

最终，它拥有围绕产品和创始人框架的完整方法。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Is Jobs to Be Done ever not the right framework for people to figure out what to build?

难道“待完成的工作”不是人们弄清楚要构建什么的正确框架吗？

Bob Moesta: Oh yeah.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：哦，是的。

So couple places, one is when there's no choice or there's no real choice.

所以有几个地方，一个是没有选择或没有真正选择的时候。

So what's interesting is think about is why do you know more about your car insurance than your health insurance, right?

所以有趣的是想想为什么你对汽车保险的了解比对健康保险的了解更多，对吧？

And most of it is because your health insurance is given to you by your employer and you only utilize it when you're sick.

And most of it is because your health insurance is given to you by your employer and you only utilize it when you're sick.

But the car insurance, you have to pay for it so you have to sit down and decide what are the different trade-offs you're going to make where when you do it for the employer, it's good, better, best.

But the car insurance, you have to pay for it so you have to sit down and decide what are the different trade-offs you're going to make where when you do it for the employer, it's good, better, best.

And it literally is like, where am I my life?

从字面上看，这就像，我的生活在哪里？

Have I been sick?

我是不是生病了？

There's some basic things, but there's no real choice there.

有一些基本的东西，但没有真正的选择。

Bob Moesta: And so you start to realize where there's no real choice or where people want to make the choice obvious, it doesn't work.

Bob Moesta: And so you start to realize where there's no real choice or where people want to make the choice obvious, it doesn't work.

You have to be able to accept how people see you as opposed to how you want to be seen.

You have to be able to accept how people see you as opposed to how you want to be seen.

So when companies will come to us and say, "All right, I want you to find these jobs for us," like, "Nope, I can't do it because it doesn't work.

So when companies will come to us and say, "All right, I want you to find these jobs for us," like, "Nope, I can't do it because it doesn't work.

I can tell you what the demand side is asking for and then we can see how your product fits to it and what you have to modify to it, but if I try to help you build the case to make the jobs what you think they are, it doesn't work."

我可以告诉你需求方的要求，然后我们可以看到你的产品如何适合它以及你必须对其进行哪些修改，但如果我试图帮助你建立案例以使工作成为你认为的样子，那是行不通的。”

Lenny: In those cases, is there a different framework you recommend or is it just like you don't really have a lot of options?

Lenny：在这种情况下，您是否有推荐的不同框架，或者您是否真的没有很多选择？

Bob Moesta: In a lot of cases to me, I'd do some ethnography, I'd literally figure out kind of where there's frictional points in the system.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：在很多情况下，对我来说，我会做一些民族志研究，我会从字面上找出系统中存在摩擦点的地方。

I might do some prototyping around kind of different alternatives, but typically it's more about what I would call the little hire or how do they use, for example, the health insurance as opposed to why do they buy the health insurance.

I might do some prototyping around kind of different alternatives, but typically it's more about what I would call the little hire or how do they use, for example, the health insurance as opposed to why do they buy the health insurance.

Bob Moesta: The other example I could use is chewing gum.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：我可以举的另一个例子是口香糖。

If I talk to people about buying a pack of chewing gum, most people can't remember at all when they bought a pack of chewing gum, even if it was in the last week like, "Uh, I think so." But if I asked them when they chewed gum, they can tell me about when they chewed gum.

如果我和人们谈论购买一包口香糖，大多数人根本不记得他们什么时候买过一包口香糖，即使是在上周，就像“呃，我想是的”。 But if I asked them when they chewed gum, they can tell me about when they chewed gum.

And ultimately that will then imply when they buy gum.

最终这将意味着他们何时购买口香糖。

If you go to something that it doesn't register, it's so deep of a habit that they don't really know what they're doing, you'll never going to be able to get that information out of them.

If you go to something that it doesn't register, it's so deep of a habit that they don't really know what they're doing, you'll never going to be able to get that information out of them.

Again, the habitual stuff is very hard to see the job.

Again, the habitual stuff is very hard to see the job.

It's only when people change do you see, it's like you can reveal the entire iceberg but if I've been using Tide for 20 years and I ask you why do you hire Tide, you just make it up.

只有当人们改变时你才会看到，就像你可以揭示整个冰山一样，但如果我已经使用 Tide 20 年了，我问你为什么雇用 Tide，你就编造出来。

You have no idea why you Tide.

你不知道为什么会潮汐。

But if you switch from Tide to Gain or Gain to Tide, you can tell me that story very detailed.

But if you switch from Tide to Gain or Gain to Tide, you can tell me that story very detailed.

Lenny: There's a reader who has the really interesting question, Maria Delano is her name.

Lenny: There's a reader who has the really interesting question, Maria Delano is her name.

She's wondering, with a framework this well known, you're bound to get people misinterpreting it and repeating inaccurate information about the framework, and she's curious what misconceptions most frustrate you that you just hear again and again about Jobs to Be Done?

She's wondering, with a framework this well known, you're bound to get people misinterpreting it and repeating inaccurate information about the framework, and she's curious what misconceptions most frustrate you that you just hear again and again about Jobs to Be Done?

Bob Moesta: The first thing I want to say is actually, in doing it, I've explicitly made it very accessible because the moment you make it too copywritten, too patented, too whatever, people just move by it.

Bob Moesta: The first thing I want to say is actually, in doing it, I've explicitly made it very accessible because the moment you make it too copywritten, too patented, too whatever, people just move by it.

So part of it was being able to make it in the public domain so people could have conversation and try it and do different things with it.

So part of it was being able to make it in the public domain so people could have conversation and try it and do different things with it.

Bob Moesta: What I would say is there's enough people that have used it and have worked with it and have had great success with it that at some point in time, most of the people who are trying it and not using it well, it's obvious.

Bob Moesta: What I would say is there's enough people that have used it and have worked with it and have had great success with it that at some point in time, most of the people who are trying it and not using it well, it's obvious.

And so it'd be lik, how do you double down into it?

那么问题来了，你如何加倍投入呢？

I think one of the biggest misconceptions around Jobs to Be Done is this notion that it's pain and gain as opposed to context and outcome.

I think one of the biggest misconceptions around Jobs to Be Done is this notion that it's pain and gain as opposed to context and outcome.

And that I think one of the other ones is it's purely about the outcome and not just about the context and outcome together.

And that I think one of the other ones is it's purely about the outcome and not just about the context and outcome together.

Bob Moesta: And again, I think the biggest mistakes I've seen made is because they do it in a conference room and they don't go talk to people.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：再说一遍，我认为我所见过的最大错误是因为他们在会议室中进行，并且不去与人交谈。

They don't actually find the contradictions, they don't find the irrational parts.

他们实际上并没有发现矛盾，他们没有发现不合理的部分。

What's really interesting is when you hear somebody's story and it seems irrational, like we'll have people go, "Oh my God, that's an anomaly.

真正有趣的是，当你听到某人的故事时，它似乎不合理，就像我们会让人们说，“天哪，这太反常了。

That doesn't happen." But what you realize is that the context makes the irrational rational.

那不会发生。”但你会意识到，环境使非理性变得合理。

So the moment you hear a story and you go, "I can't believe that," nine times out of 10 it's because you don't have the rest of the story.

因此，当你听到一个故事时，你会说“我简直不敢相信”，十分之九的原因是你不知道故事的其余部分。

And so part of it's being able to understand the rest of that context that would drive somebody say, "Why would somebody cut their arm off?" Well, if they're in this situation and this and this and this, there's nobody who would say they want to cut their arm off, but in certain situations you'll do it.

因此，部分原因是能够理解上下文的其余部分，这会促使人们说：“为什么有人会砍掉他们的手臂？”好吧，如果他们处于这种情况，这样，这样，这样，没有人会说他们想砍掉自己的手臂，但在某些情况下你会这么做。

Bob Moesta: And so that's what we're trying to do is find where will people change behavior?

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：所以我们要做的就是找到人们在哪里改变行为？

Most people are studying the momentum of where people are and what's the momentum of their direction, but the reality is what we're trying to do is study what causes people to change their direction.

大多数人都在研究人们所在位置的动量以及他们方向的动量是什么，但现实是我们正在尝试做的是研究是什么导致人们改变他们的方向。

And that's where innovation happens.

这就是创新发生的地方。

Innovation happens when people change.

当人们改变时，创新就会发生。

Lenny: What convinced you to spend your time and life working on Jobs to Be Done and helping people implement this framework and what keeps pulling you back?

Lenny：是什么说服你花费时间和一生致力于“待完成的工作”并帮助人们实施这个框架，是什么让你退缩？

Bob Moesta: That's a great question.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：这是一个很好的问题。

So I think I started out as I just love to build things.

所以我想我一开始只是因为喜欢建造东西。

My mom would take me, basically we have something around here called Big Trash Day is where they throw out the dishwasher and they throw out the old mini bike and all these different things.

我妈妈会带我去，基本上我们这里有一个叫做“大垃圾日”的活动，他们会扔掉洗碗机、旧迷你自行车和所有这些不同的东西。

And my mom would basically say anything that we could fit in the trunk, we could bring home.

我妈妈基本上会说任何我们能装进后备箱的东西，我们都可以带回家。

And so I've been building things my whole life because I've been just always fascinated with how things work.

所以我一生都在建造东西，因为我总是对事物的工作原理着迷。

So that's the first thing.

这是第一件事。

Bob Moesta: The second part is I love to help people.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：第二部分是我喜欢帮助别人。

One of the things I realized is I can't build products for myself, and I've done seven startups, but I realized that I have to build for others.

我意识到的一件事是我无法为自己构建产品，而且我已经创办了七家初创公司，但我意识到我必须为别人构建产品。

And so to me, building for others was where I started product.

所以对我来说，为他人构建是我开始产品的地方。

And then I realized that I'm a method builder and that I really help people innovate.

然后我意识到我是一个方法构建者，我确实帮助人们创新。

And so I exist to help make the abstract concrete.

所以我的存在是为了帮助把抽象具体化。

So that phrase has helped lead me to becoming now a teacher and a professor and writing books is something I never wanted to do because I hated books.

所以这句话帮助我成为了一名教师和教授，而写书是我从来不想做的事情，因为我讨厌书籍。

Clay convinced me that I had to learn how to speak and I had to write books.

克莱说服我，我必须学习如何说话，我必须写书。

Bob Moesta: So here's a really good one is that this is in 1990, so one of the things that happened was when my youngest kid moved out and basically moved out of the house, I had my notebooks from almost 30 years of every project on everything I worked on any company, and this is from one of my mentors, Dr. Taguchi, he said this in 1990 when I was living in Cologne, Germany.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：这是一件非常好的事情，这是在 1990 年，所以发生的一件事是，当我最小的孩子搬出去，基本上搬出房子时，我有近 30 年来每个项目的笔记本，记录了我在任何公司工作的所有内容，这是我的一位导师田口博士说的，他在 1990 年说这句话，当时我住在德国科隆。

He said, "Write a book." So I opened this 30 years later, I'm like, "Oh, dang it.

他说：“写一本书。”所以 30 年后我打开这本书时，我想，“哦，该死的。

I got to write a book because he told me to." So it's just one of those things where I realized I really like helping people, I like creating methods.

我必须写一本书，因为他告诉我这样做。”所以这只是我意识到我真的很喜欢帮助别人的事情之一，我喜欢创造方法。

I'm very curious, sometimes annoyingly curious, but that's kind of the triad of things that I love to do.

我很好奇，有时好奇得令人恼火，但这就是我喜欢做的三件事。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Bob, is there anything else you wanted to share or touch on or make sure we cover before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

鲍勃，您还有什么想分享或提及的，或者确保我们在进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前进行报道吗？

Bob Moesta: There's three big things to take away.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：有三件大事值得我们注意。

One is struggling moments is the key and it's struggling moments that people take action on.

一是困难时刻是关键，人们在困难时刻采取行动。

And what I would say is they're everywhere.

我想说的是它们无处不在。

They are freaking everywhere in our lives and there's only certain contexts when all of a sudden we realize we have to do something about it.

它们在我们的生活中随处可见，只有在某些特定的情况下我们才会突然意识到我们必须对此采取一些措施。

So study struggling moments because at some point that's where we need the innovation the most.

因此，请研究挣扎时刻，因为在某些时候，这是我们最需要创新的时刻。

The second thing is think about the progress people are trying to make.

第二件事是考虑人们正在努力取得的进步。

What is their standard, not your standard?

他们的标准是什么，而不是你的标准？

What is that context?

那是什么背景？

What is that outcome?

那结果是什么？

And the last thing, the way I phrase it is choose what to suck at and figure out the trade-offs that you need to make and make sure that your trade-offs map the trade-offs of the customer.

最后一件事，我的说法是选择要吸收的内容并找出您需要做出的权衡，并确保您的权衡映射了客户的权衡。

Because nine times out of 10, most products that fail is because they made a trade-off that the customer didn't agree with.

因为十分之九的产品失败是因为他们做出了客户不同意的权衡。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Well, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

好了，至此，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got six questions for you.

我有六个问题要问你。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Bob Moesta: Yeah, I'm ready.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：是的，我准备好了。

Always ready for these.

时刻准备着这些。

Lenny: Perfect.

莱尼：完美。

What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Bob Moesta: Shape Up by Ryan Singer, it's phenomenal.

Bob Moesta：Ryan Singer 的《Shape Up》，非常棒。

The other book I would say is End of Average by Todd Rose.

我要说的另一本书是托德·罗斯的《End of Average》。

I listen to it every single year.

我每年都会听它。

I get something on it every single year.

我每年都会从中得到一些东西。

I've been listening to it for probably eight or 10 years.

我大概已经听了八年或十年了。

I literally called Todd, I've become friends with Todd.

我真的打电话给托德，我和托德成了朋友。

We interact on a regular basis.

我们定期互动。

It's an amazing book.

这是一本很棒的书。

Lenny: What is a favorite recent movie or TV show?

莱尼：最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Bob Moesta: I love Big Bang.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：我喜欢《生活大爆炸》。

I watch it every...

我每次都会看...

People would say that I'm Sheldon, I think I'm more Leonard, but I can see there's days that I come across as Sheldon, I don't mean to be Sheldon.

人们会说我是谢尔顿，我想我更像伦纳德，但我可以看到有些时候我被认为是谢尔顿，我并不是故意成为谢尔顿。

But I like Oppenheimer.

但我喜欢奥本海默。

I think any of the science type, I'm not really a science fiction person, but it's more about, I'll say historic documentaries, I love them all because they help me understand the science.

我认为任何科学类型，我都不是一个真正的科幻小说家，但更多的是，我会说历史纪录片，我喜欢它们，因为它们帮助我理解科学。

Lenny: What is a favorite interview question you like to ask when you're interviewing people?

莱尼：当你面试别人时，你最喜欢问的面试问题是什么？

Bob Moesta: What are the top three things you struggle with in your business today that if you could solve would fundamentally change the business?

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔（Bob Moesta）：您目前在业务中遇到的最困难的三件事是什么？如果您能解决这三件事，将从根本上改变业务？

Lenny: Love it.

莱尼：喜欢。

What is a favorite product you recently discovered that you just really like?

您最近发现并且真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品是什么？

Bob Moesta: I recently purchased a massage chair, and it's one of those things where I've been getting massages for a while, and as I get older and I'm working out more, I've lost almost 100 pounds.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：我最近买了一把按摩椅，这是我有一段时间接受按摩的东西之一，随着年龄的增长和锻炼的增多，我减掉了近 100 磅。

And so I'm to the point where I'm working out more and God, nobody told me I'm going to be cold all the time, I'm sore all the time and I'm hungry all the time.

所以我现在要加强锻炼，天哪，没有人告诉我我会一直冷，一直酸痛，一直饿。

And so it's like, "Okay, I need a way in which this..." So I would get a massage every two weeks or so, and now I can get a massage in 20 minutes on demand.

就像，“好吧，我需要一种方法......”所以我每两周左右就会得到一次按摩，现在我可以按需在 20 分钟内得到一次按摩。

And it's pretty freaking amazing.

这真是太神奇了。

Lenny: Man, my wife has wanted one of these and this might be good for her.

莱尼：伙计，我妻子想要一件这样的东西，这可能对她有好处。

Bob Moesta: Oh, I will tell you, it's a life changer.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：哦，我会告诉你，它改变了我的生活。

It is one of those things where we'll do interviews and I can go do an interview and a debrief, pop in and do it.

这是我们进行采访的事情之一，我可以去做采访和汇报，然后就去做。

And I'm brush as I can be.

我尽我所能地刷。

It's better than an app.

它比应用程序更好。

Lenny: Is there a brand you want to throw out that you found to be your favorite?

莱尼：有没有一个你发现自己最喜欢但想扔掉的品牌？

Bob Moesta: I got it from Costco.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：我从好市多买的。

It's fabulous.

太棒了。

Lenny: Okay, we'll be looking into that.

莱尼：好的，我们会调查一下。

What is something relatively minor you've changed in how a company has implemented Jobs to Be Done that has had a big impact on their ability to do it well?

在公司实施“待完成的工作”的方式上，您做出了哪些相对较小的改变，却对其做好工作的能力产生了重大影响？

Bob Moesta: There's two.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：有两个。

One is Intercom.

一是对讲机。

So the way that Intercom really took off and why it did so well is actually, it was Des Traynor and Eoghan McCabe who were the two founders, they actually studied, they came to one of my workshops in the beginning, but they studied it and they tried to do it, and then we talked about it.

因此，Intercom 真正起飞的方式以及它为何做得如此出色的原因实际上是，Des Traynor 和 Eoghan McCabe 是两位创始人，他们实际上进行了研究，他们一开始就来到了我的一个研讨会，但他们研究了它并尝试去做，然后我们讨论了它。

But then they brought Matt Hodges and Paul Adams and Sean Townson and the executive team, and they did the interviews.

但随后他们带来了马特·霍奇斯、保罗·亚当斯、肖恩·汤森和执行团队，他们进行了采访。

And when they did the interviews, they understood what to do and it literally all went downhill from there.

当他们接受采访时，他们明白了要做什么，从那里开始一切都在走下坡路。

And they knew how to ask the questions.

他们知道如何提问。

Bob Moesta: They knew how to do the interviews way.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：他们知道如何进行采访。

It was kind of amazing.

这真是太神奇了。

And Paul Adams and Matt Hodge's first day at Intercom was in my office in Detroit.

保罗·亚当斯 (Paul Adams) 和马特·霍奇 (Matt Hodge) 在 Intercom 的第一天是在我位于底特律的办公室。

So that to me is one of the key.

所以这对我来说是关键之一。

Bob Moesta: The other is to find a place in a very large organization where a group is struggling, they can't deliver product, they can't move fast enough, they keep getting the wrong insights, they say it's going to be this big, and literally focusing on a very small area and giving them a little space to demonstrate the use of it, and then it will spread with a case study or two.

Bob Moesta：另一个是在一个非常大的组织中找到一个地方，其中一个团队正在苦苦挣扎，他们无法交付产品，他们无法足够快地行动，他们不断获得错误的见解，他们说它将变得如此之大，实际上专注于一个非常小的领域，并给他们一点空间来演示它的使用，然后它将通过一两个案例研究来传播。

And so most companies, if they start small case studies and sharing it with people both when it works and not works, or starting with the top.

因此，大多数公司，如果他们开始小型案例研究，并在有效和无效时与人们分享，或者从高层开始。

Lenny: Two more questions, one is, someone asked me to ask you the dining room table story.

莱尼：还有两个问题，一是有人让我问你餐桌上的故事。

Does that ring any sort of bell?

这是否敲响了警钟？

Bob Moesta: Yeah.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：是的。

So one of the things I did is I built houses.

所以我做的一件事就是建造房子。

So before I built houses, I was running a venture capital, private equity firm.

因此，在建造房屋之前，我经营着一家风险投资、私募股权公司。

We had about 100 million.

我们大约有一亿。

I was doing 25 transactions and just traveling too much, I had four children.

我做了 25 笔交易，而且旅行太多，我还有四个孩子。

And so my wife and I kind of had the conversation that I wound it down and I said, "What am I going to do?" I wanted to try and find a business I could work in and be part of and own part of so I joined a building company here in Detroit, and we ended up building a thousand homes here in Detroit and had 14 sites.

所以我和妻子进行了一次谈话，我结束了谈话，我说：“我该怎么办？”我想尝试找到一家我可以工作、参与和拥有的企业，所以我加入了底特律的一家建筑公司，最终我们在底特律建造了 1000 栋房屋，并拥有 14 个场地。

And one of the things we did is we built for downsizers like your parents.

我们所做的事情之一就是为像您父母这样的小户型人士打造。

And one of the things they constantly told us was, "Look, we're downsizing.

他们经常告诉我们的一件事是，“看，我们正在裁员。

We're not having the holidays.

我们没有假期。

We're done with that.

我们已经完成了。

I don't want a dining room table, so we can't even have people over.

我不想要餐桌，所以我们甚至不能请人过来。

If we're going to do it, we're going to go somewhere else.

如果我们要做的话，我们就会去别的地方。

I don't want the dining room table."

我不想要餐桌。”

Bob Moesta: And so we made, it's a two bedroom, two and a half bath, first floor laundry, gourmet kitchen, kind of amazing condo.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：所以我们做了一个有两间卧室、两个半浴室、一楼洗衣房、美食厨房、令人惊叹的公寓。

But what we realized is people, if they didn't know where the dining room table was going to go, they weren't going to move.

但我们意识到，如果人们不知道餐桌要放在哪里，他们就不会搬家。

And so it turns out that the dining table was the emotional bank account for their entire life.

原来，餐桌就是他们一生的情感银行账户。

And so if you weren't going to take it or your sister wasn't going to take it or your brother wasn't going to take it, the reality is they weren't going to give it the Goodwill, it was not going to go in the basement.

因此，如果你不打算接受它，或者你的姐姐不打算接受它，或者你的兄弟不打算接受它，那么现实是他们不会给予它善意，它不会进入地下室。

It might go into the storage unit, but for the most part, people would literally stay where they are until they knew where the dining table's going to go.

它可能会进入存储单元，但在大多数情况下，人们实际上会呆在原地，直到他们知道餐桌要去哪里。

Bob Moesta: So I did the opposite of what they told me to do, which is I built a place to put the dining room table.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：所以我做了与他们告诉我做的相反的事情，那就是我建造了一个放置餐桌的地方。

You could never eat at it, it was never big enough to actually pull the chairs out of it, but it was still a symbolic of what it was and they would use it for puzzles and that kind of stuff.

你永远不能吃它，它从来没有大到足以把椅子从里面拉出来，但它仍然是它的象征，他们会用它来拼图和类似的东西。

But I sacrificed the second bedroom suite to basically add that, and it increased sales 22%.

但我牺牲了第二间卧室套房来基本上增加这一点，它的销售额增加了 22%。

So this is a case where you learn, again, that irrational contradiction that says, "They've said this, but you did that.

因此，在这种情况下，你会再次了解到非理性的矛盾，即“他们这么说，但你却那样做了。

That doesn't make any sense." That's what jobs helps you with, those kinds of really important, small but subtle and important insights.

这没有任何意义。”这就是工作可以帮助你的，那些非常重要、微小但微妙且重要的见解。

Lenny: Last question, you showed me this very cool camera setup you have in one of the views was your heroes on the wall?

莱尼：最后一个问题，你向我展示了这个非常酷的相机设置，其中一个视图是墙上的英雄吗？

Lenny: Can you show that and share who those folks are?

莱尼：你能展示一下并分享一下这些人是谁吗？

Bob Moesta: Yeah, so at the end of the night, I have this philosophy that I have the energy in your body and your brain literally you need to use every ounce of it every day because you wake up the next day with a full bank account and you can't really save it.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：是的，所以在晚上结束时，我有这样的理念，我的身体和大脑里都有能量，实际上你每天都需要使用它的每一盎司，因为你第二天醒来时银行账户已经满了，你无法真正保存它。

So every night I paint.

所以每天晚上我都会画画。

And so these are paintings of my mentors and they're above me, but Dr. Deming, Clay, Dr. Taguchi, and Dr. Willie Moore, I wrote about him in a book called Learning to Build, and the five skills that they taught me to enable me to kind of work on so many different things in different areas.

这些是我导师的画，他们在我之上，但是戴明博士、克莱、田口博士和威利摩尔博士，我在一本名为《学习建造》的书中写到了他，以及他们教给我的五种技能，使我能够在不同领域从事许多不同的事情。

Bob Moesta: And so Deming I met when I was 18, he took me to Japan.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：我 18 岁时认识了戴明，他带我去了日本。

I worked for Ford and I was responsible on the front lines to help reduce product development cycle time at Ford from 72 months to 36 months.

我在福特工作，负责第一线，帮助将福特的产品开发周期从 72 个月缩短到 36 个月。

So that's where I learned a lot of tools and methods and things like that from Toyota.

所以我从丰田那里学到了很多工具和方法以及类似的东西。

And then I learned Dr. Taguchi's method, which is amazing around designed experiments.

然后我学习了田口博士的方法，这种方法在设计实验方面非常棒。

Dr. Willie Moore was my first boss at Ford, and she was a PhD in particle physics and she taught me empathetic perspective of how to see things and frame things and really amazing, amazing individual.

威利·摩尔博士是我在福特的第一位老板，她是粒子物理学的博士，她教会了我如何以同理心的视角看待事物和构建事物，以及真正令人惊叹的个人。

Bob Moesta: And then the last one was Clay Christensen, which is I just walked in his office and he had a sign outside his office basically saying anomalies wanted, and I walked in and I said, "Look, I'm an anomaly.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：最后一位是克莱·克里斯滕森，我刚刚走进他的办公室，他的办公室外面有一个牌子，基本上写着需要异常，我走进去说，“看，我是一个异常。

I don't really know if you want anomalies, but I am." And we sat down and started talking, and ultimately I asked him, "What's your research and how can I help?" He had been there maybe about a year, and it was one of those things where he got kind of somber and it was almost like he had a tear, and I was like, "What's going on?" He goes, "I've been here a year and everybody's asked me for things, but nobody's ever asked to help me, and you're the first person." And so that was the beginning of the relationship, and I had four hours a quarter for 27 years with Clay with no agenda, which is kind of amazing.

我真的不知道你是否想要异常，但我想要。”我们坐下来开始交谈，最后我问他：“你的研究是什么？我能提供什么帮助？”他在那里待了大约一年，这是他变得有点忧郁的事情之一，几乎就像他流了一滴眼泪，我当时想，“发生了什么事？”他说：“我来这里已经一年了，每个人都向我要东西，但没有人要求帮助我，而你是第一个人。”这就是我们关系的开始，在 27 年的时间里，我每个季度都会和克莱一起度过四个小时，没有任何议程，这有点令人惊奇。

Lenny: That's incredible.

莱尼：这太不可思议了。

What a beautiful way to wrap up our chat, Bob.

鲍勃，以一种美妙的方式结束我们的谈话。

My job to be done for this interview was to help people understand Jobs to Be Done.

我在这次采访中要做的工作是帮助人们了解需要完成的工作。

I think we accomplished our goal as much as we can in one hour.

我认为我们在一小时内尽可能地实现了我们的目标。

Two final questions, where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and maybe ask you a question?

最后两个问题，如果人们想联系您并向您提问，可以在哪里找到您？

Bob Moesta: Yeah, LinkedIn is probably the best place, and I post most of the stuff there.

Bob Moesta：是的，LinkedIn 可能是最好的地方，我在那里发布了大部分内容。

And then I have several different companies, but one is called The Rewired Group, and I've had that for about 14 years, and that's a design consultancy agency around helping people build and launch products.

然后我有几家不同的公司，其中一家叫做 The Rewired Group，我已经经营这家公司大约 14 年了，这是一家设计咨询机构，致力于帮助人们构建和推出产品。

And we do everything from Fortune 100 to not-for-profits, to startups and different ways.

从财富 100 强到非营利组织，再到初创企业，我们的业务范围广泛，方式多种多样。

And then I have something called Laser Ventures where we actually work for equity and we also put money into investments as well.

然后我有一个叫做 Laser Ventures 的公司，我们实际上是为股权而工作，我们也把钱投入到投资中。

And that's called Laser Ventures with Andrew Glazer.

这就是安德鲁·格雷泽 (Andrew Glazer) 的 Laser Ventures。

And we have a podcast called The Circuit Breaker, which it's more or less all these different concepts in 20 minute format of me and my partner just riffing around what is the empathetic perspective or what are the forces of progress?

我们有一个名为“断路器”的播客，它或多或少地以 20 分钟的形式讲述了所有这些不同的概念，我和我的搭档只是反复讨论什么是同理心观点或什么是进步的力量？

Or just small little things that basically help people learn along the way, and it's just long enough for a commute or a walk or something like that.

或者只是一些小事，基本上可以帮助人们一路学习，而且时间足够通勤、散步或类似的事情。

Lenny: Last question, how can listeners be useful to you?

莱尼：最后一个问题，听众如何对你有用？

Bob Moesta: To be honest, I was so excited for this podcast.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：说实话，我对这个播客感到非常兴奋。

I was excited, one, because I'm a fan, but two is to see your post and then get all those responses.

我很兴奋，一是因为我是粉丝，二是看到你的帖子，然后得到所有这些回复。

I think I said, "Boy, I think we need more than an hour.

我想我说过，“伙计，我想我们需要一个多小时。

This is amazing." And so to be honest, posting questions, asking questions, letting the community kind of interact.

这太棒了。”老实说，发布问题、提出问题，让社区进行互动。

And what was so interesting is it was people who had questions, but then there were people like Des and Jason who reached out and said, "Oh, this will be awesome.

有趣的是，有人提出了问题，但后来像德斯和杰森这样的人伸出手来说：“哦，这太棒了。

You'll love this." All those kind things.

你会喜欢这个的。”所有这些善良的事情。

Bob Moesta: So to me, just keep being a community.

鲍勃·莫埃斯塔：所以对我来说，继续成为一个社区。

And what I would say is, as this is posted, just put more questions up there.

我想说的是，当这篇文章发布时，请提出更多问题。

The hard part for me is actually answering questions in a written form.

对我来说最困难的部分实际上是以书面形式回答问题。

My request would be is that if we can figure out a format so I can answer them more in a conversation where we almost like a list of things where there might be a follow-up of some sort, but if your listeners could literally help me by being more articulate, that would be great.

我的要求是，如果我们能找出一种格式，这样我就可以在对话中回答更多问题，我们几乎喜欢列出可能有某种后续行动的事情清单，但如果你的听众可以通过更清晰地表达来真正帮助我，那就太好了。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Let's figure out if we can do some way of doing that, that would be amazing.

让我们弄清楚是否可以采取某种方法来做到这一点，那就太棒了。

Lenny: Bob, again, thank you so much for being here.

莱尼：鲍勃，再次非常感谢你来到这里。

Bye everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

大家再见：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。