35 years of product design wisdom from Apple, Disney, Pinterest and beyond | Bob Baxley

Bob Baxley: Almost everyone living in a modern economy now is going to have hundreds of interactions with a phone or with a computer.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：现在生活在现代经济中的几乎每个人都会与手机或计算机进行数百次交互。

And unfortunately, a lot of those interactions are not going to be great.

不幸的是，很多互动都不会很好。

We have an obligation as product people to put that emotional energy back into people's lives.

作为产品人员，我们有义务将这种情感能量重新带回到人们的生活中。

Lenny Rachitsky: You actually have a really unique perspective on just what is design.

Lenny Rachitsky：您实际上对设计有着非常独特的视角。

Bob Baxley: Design is trying to imagine the future you want to live in and then take the steps to make it real.

Bob Baxley：设计就是尝试想象你想要生活的未来，然后采取措施将其变为现实。

Saying a company is design-led does not mean it's designer-led.

说一家公司是设计主导的并不意味着它是设计师主导的。

I've never seen somebody graft it on after the fact.

我从未见过有人在事后将其嫁接。

It's there at the beginning in the root DNA or doesn't exist.

它一开始就存在于根 DNA 中，或者根本不存在。

Bob Baxley: It wasn't a successful stint at Pinterest.

Bob Baxley：在 Pinterest 的经历并不成功。

I just bounced off the culture.

我刚刚摆脱了这种文化。

I came in thinking I was supposed to behave the way I behaved at Apple, which is very direct, fighting hard.

我进来时认为我应该像在苹果公司那样行事，非常直接，努力奋斗。

Lenny Rachitsky: Why did you decide to join Apple?

Lenny Rachitsky：你为什么决定加入苹果？

Bob Baxley: I just seek out opportunities to witness history.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：我只是寻找见证历史的机会。

The whole company is constantly asking how can the thing that I'm working on be a little bit better?

整个公司都在不断地问，我正在做的事情怎样才能做得更好一点？

Lenny Rachitsky: Why do you Think that people that have left Apple, a lot of amazing things haven't emerged?

Lenny Rachitsky：你认为为什么离开苹果的人，很多令人惊奇的事情还没有出现？

Today, my guest is Bob Baxley.

今天，我的客人是鲍勃·巴克斯利。

Bob is a designer, executive and advisor who's built in led design teams at Apple, Pinterest, Yahoo, and most recently ThoughtSpot.

Bob 是一名设计师、执行官和顾问，曾在 Apple、Pinterest、Yahoo 和最近的 ThoughtSpot 建立领导设计团队。

Over the course of his career that spanned over three decades, Bob has played a pivotal role in the design of the Apple online store, the Apple App Store, Pinterest, and early in his career Yahoo Answers, products that have been used by hundreds of millions of people around the world.

在他长达三十多年的职业生涯中，Bob 在 Apple 在线商店、Apple App Store、Pinterest 以及职业生涯早期的 Yahoo Answers 的设计中发挥了关键作用，这些产品已被全球数亿人使用。

Lenny Rachitsky: Bob also mentors individuals and advises organizations that are working to improve the practice, craft and culture of digital product design.

Lenny Rachitsky：Bob 还为致力于改进数字产品设计实践、工艺和文化的个人提供指导并为组织提供建议。

There is something in this conversation for everyone from why you should consider having designed report engineering, why it's your moral obligation to build great products, why you should wait as long as possible to draw a picture or create a prototype of your idea to what the Moon Landing can teach us about building better teams and products.

在这次对话中，每个人都可以学到一些东西，从为什么你应该考虑设计报表工程，为什么构建伟大的产品是你的道义义务，为什么你应该等待尽可能长的时间来绘制图片或创建你的想法的原型，以及登月可以教会我们如何构建更好的团队和产品。

I could listen to Bob all day.

我可以听鲍勃一整天。

I learned a ton from this conversation, including a bunch of really unique insights that I've never heard before.

我从这次谈话中学到了很多东西，包括一些我以前从未听说过的非常独特的见解。

Lenny Rachitsky: A big thank you to Annie Warner, Andrew Hogan, Irene A, and Joff Redfern for suggesting questions for this conversation.

Lenny Rachitsky：非常感谢 Annie Warner、Andrew Hogan、Irene A 和 Joff Redfern 为本次对话提出的问题。

If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

Also, if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of a bunch of incredible products including Linear, Superhuman, Notion, Perplexity, Granola, and more.

此外，如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您将获得一年免费的一堆令人难以置信的产品，包括 Linear、Super human、Notion、Perplexity、Granola 等等。

Check it out lennysnewsletter.com and click bundle.

查看 lennysnewsletter.com 并单击“捆绑”。

With that, I bring you Bob Baxley.

接下来，我为您带来鲍勃·巴克斯利。

Lenny Rachitsky: This entire episode is brought to you by Stripe.

Lenny Rachitsky：这整集都是由 Stripe 为您带来的。

There's a reason that I've had more guests on this podcast from Stripe than any other company.

与其他公司相比，我收听 Stripe 播客的人数更多是有原因的。

It's because they hire the best people and they build incredible products.

这是因为他们聘请了最优秀的人才并打造了令人难以置信的产品。

You probably know them for their payments platform, which powers my newsletter, and also companies like Nvidia and Salesforce and Zoom and DoorDash.

您可能因他们的支付平台而认识他们，该平台为我的时事通讯提供支持，此外还有 Nvidia、Salesforce、Zoom 和 DoorDash 等公司。

What you may not know is that they have several other products that can help accelerate your revenue, such as Stripe Billing, which powers billing for companies that you may have heard of, OpenAI, Anthropic, Figma, Atlassian, and over 300,000 other companies.

您可能不知道的是，他们还有其他几种产品可以帮助您增加收入，例如 Stripe Billing，它为您可能听说过的公司、OpenAI、Anthropic、Figma、Atlassian 以及超过 300,000 家其他公司提供计费服务。

Stripe Billing lets you bill and manage customers however you want from simple recurring billing to usage-based billing to sales negotiated contracts.

Stripe Billing 可让您按照自己的意愿计费和管理客户，从简单的定期计费到基于使用情况的计费再到销售协商合同。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's also Stripe's Optimized Checkout Suite which is a plug and play super optimized payments flow that natively supports over 100 global dynamic payment methods.

Lenny Rachitsky：还有 Stripe 的 Optimized Checkout Suite，它是一个即插即用的超级优化支付流程，本身支持 100 多种全球动态支付方式。

There's also a product called LINQ, which is an accelerated checkout experience built specifically to increase your checkout conversion.

还有一个名为 LINQ 的产品，它是专门为提高结帐转化率而构建的加速结帐体验。

Every single one of the Forbes top 50 AI companies that have a product in the market today use Stripe to monetize it.

如今，福布斯 50 强人工智能公司中每一家在市场上拥有产品的公司都使用 Stripe 来货币化。

Half of Fortune 100 companies use Stripe.

财富 100 强公司中有一半使用 Stripe。

$1.4 trillion flows through Stripe annually, which is equivalent to over 1% of global GDP.

每年有 1.4 万亿美元流经 Stripe，相当于全球 GDP 的 1% 以上。

Use Stripe to handle all of your payment related needs, billing, manage revenue operations, and launch or invent new business models.

使用 Stripe 处理所有与支付相关的需求、计费、管理收入运营以及启动或发明新的业务模式。

Learn more at stripe.com.

请访问 stripe.com 了解更多信息。

Bob, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

鲍勃，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Bob Baxley: Lenny, thank you so much.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：莱尼，非常感谢你。

Thanks for having me, but also just thank you for what you do.

感谢您邀请我，但也感谢您所做的一切。

We are still in early days to try to figure out how to make software together.

我们仍处于尝试弄清楚如何一起开发软件的早期阶段。

I think of it like where the film industry was in the 1920s.

我认为这就像 20 年代电影业的情况一样。

We've had our talkie moment.

我们已经度过了有声时刻。

We're on the cusp of having our shift to color movement, but we're still trying to figure out how to make movies and a podcast like yours specifically yours I think is one of the greatest resources we have for learning from one another.

我们正处于向色彩运动转变的风口浪尖，但我们仍在努力弄清楚如何制作像您这样的电影和播客，特别是您的播客，我认为这是我们相互学习的最佳资源之一。

I appreciate all you're doing for the community and for helping us as a community make better software.

我感谢您为社区所做的一切，感谢您帮助我们社区制作更好的软件。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

Well, I really appreciate that.

嗯，我真的很感激。

That means a lot coming from you.

这对你来说意味着很多。

There's so much I want to talk about in our conversation.

我想在我们的谈话中谈论很多事情。

There's a story that I hear that you often tell, which is when somebody asked Steve Jobs once, what is your favorite product that you've built that you work on?

我听说你经常讲一个故事，有一次有人问史蒂夫·乔布斯，你最喜欢的产品是什么？

And his answer, what's that story?

他的回答是，那是什么故事？

Bob Baxley: So I actually can't remember where I heard this, but I believe the story's true.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：所以我实际上不记得我在哪里听到这个消息，但我相信这个故事是真的。

Steve at one point was recounting the products that he had created that he was most proud of, and if I recall the whole list, it was the Apple II, the Mac, the iPod, the iPhone, I think Apple retail was in the list and then he said Apple itself.

史蒂夫有一次正在讲述他创造的最令他自豪的产品，如果我记得整个列表，那就是 Apple II、Mac、iPod、iPhone，我认为苹果零售店也在列表中，然后他说苹果本身。

When I heard that and when I've reflected on it, that is the longest lasting thing.

当我听到这句话并反思时，这是最持久的事情。

I remember there was also a story that Steve was talking to, I think it was either Ed Catmull or John Lasseter at Pixar, and he said, "Everything we make is going to be a doorstop in three years, but the stuff you guys make, they're still going to be watching in 100 years." So I think Steve had some concept of the longevity of these things.

我记得史蒂夫还讲过一个故事，我想是皮克斯的 Ed Catmull 或 John Lasseter，他说：“我们制作的所有东西都将在三年内成为门挡，但你们制作的东西，他们在 100 年后仍然会观看。”所以我认为史蒂夫对这些东西的寿命有一定的概念。

Bob Baxley: They knew the products themselves were very ephemeral, but there's something about the culture of Apple that's lasted a very long time and I personally believe will last for some time yet to come.

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：他们知道产品本身是短暂的，但苹果的文化中有些东西已经持续了很长时间，而且我个人相信还会持续一段时间。

It's a way of making decisions, it's a way of behaving, it's a way of seeing the value of technology in the world and it infuses everything in that company.

这是一种决策方式，一种行为方式，一种看待世界技术价值的方式，它融入了公司的一切。

I mean everything from the checkout system when you go to the receptionist to what it's like in the cafeteria.

我指的是从接待员处的结账系统到自助餐厅的一切。

At least when I was there, they had patented the pizza box because they had reinvented the pizza box that you would get at Cafe Max because the whole company is constantly asking how can the thing that I'm working on be a little bit better?

至少当我在那里的时候，他们已经为披萨盒申请了专利，因为他们重新发明了你在 Cafe Max 可以买到的披萨盒，因为整个公司都在不断地问我如何才能让我正在做的事情变得更好一点？

I think that was something Steve brought to them and had them constantly asking that question.

我认为这是史蒂夫带给他们的东西，让他们不断地问这个问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: One more Apple question then I'll move on to other stuff.

Lenny Rachitsky：还有一个苹果问题，然后我将继续讨论其他问题。

Why do you think that people that have left Apple, a lot of amazing things haven't emerged from people that have left?

你认为为什么离开苹果的人，很多令人惊奇的事情并没有从离开的人身上显现出来？

Humane was a recent example.

人道是最近的一个例子。

We're recording this the day after Jony Ive Open AI emerged so we'll see what happens there but just feels like there hasn't been a ton of alumni that have built incredible things.

我们在 Jony Ive Open AI 出现后的第二天记录了这一点，以便我们看看那里会发生什么，但只是感觉并没有大量的校友创造出令人难以置信的东西。

Bob Baxley: Obviously Tony Fadell would be one with Nest and he'd be an outlier.

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：显然托尼·法德尔（Tony Fadell）会是 Nest 的一员，但他会是一个局外人。

I think the people that...

我认为那些人...

I went to Pinterest and did not have a successful time in my year and a half at Pinterest.

我去了 Pinterest，但在 Pinterest 的一年半里并没有过得很成功。

I think my own particular mistake, and I've seen this with some other Apple executives as well as we went directly from Apple, I left Apple on a Friday and I started Pinterest on a Monday.

我认为我自己犯了一个特别的错误，我在苹果其他一些高管身上也看到过这种情况，我们直接从苹果离职，我在周五离开了苹果，在周一创办了 Pinterest。

I didn't give myself time to recalibrate to the Pinterest culture.

我没有给自己时间重新适应 Pinterest 文化。

I think at some level, a lot of the challenge is that Apple, and it's not just Apple, I think every major tech company, they have really powerful cultures.

我认为在某种程度上，很多挑战来自苹果，而且不仅仅是苹果，我认为每家主要科技公司都拥有非常强大的文化。

Bob Baxley: You get indoctrinated into all those standards and it's really deep.

Bob Baxley：你会被灌输所有这些标准，而且它非常深刻。

It fuses all of your behavior and how you conduct yourself in the company, away from the company.

它融合了你在公司内外的所有行为以及你的行为方式。

I think it's pretty hard to immigrate successfully from one of those environments to another.

我认为成功地从其中一种环境迁移到另一种环境非常困难。

Apple is one of the strongest cultures and there's not many other cultures that natively operate like that.

苹果是最强大的文化之一，没有多少其他文化本身就是这样运作的。

Airbnb is one exception.

爱彼迎是一个例外。

And so you have guys like Hiroki Asai who leads all of marketing and all of product and Hiroki is crushing at Airbnb.

因此，浅井弘树 (Hiroki Asai) 等人负责所有营销和产品工作，而浅井弘树 (Hiroki Asai) 在 Airbnb 表现出色。

He was incredibly successful at Apple.

他在苹果公司取得了令人难以置信的成功。

Bob Baxley: It also should be noted that he had, it was a multi-year gap between the time he left Apple and the time he started Airbnb.

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：还应该指出的是，他离开苹果和创办 Airbnb 之间有多年的差距。

He gave himself a little bit of time to get through the...

他给了自己一点时间来度过难关……

At Apple, I think it was Tim or Steve used to talk about the Apple car wash.

在苹果，我认为蒂姆或史蒂夫曾经谈论过苹果洗车。

Then when you started Apple, they kind of had to take you through the car wash and get off all that stuff that you'd accumulated at other places.

然后，当你创办苹果公司时，他们不得不带你去洗车，把你在其他地方积累的所有东西都清理掉。

It turns out there's a car wash you need to go through when you leave Apple as well.

事实证明，当你离开苹果公司时，你也需要去洗车店。

And so I think Hiroki gave himself time to do that and I think that's probably a lot of why he's been so successful at Airbnb.

所以我认为 Hiroki 给了自己时间去做这件事，我认为这可能是他在 Airbnb 如此成功的一个重要原因。

The thing I took away from Apple, and I think this is true for anybody changing from one major culture to another is most likely the new place hires you because of the values of the organization you left, but not the behaviors.

我从苹果公司学到的东西，我认为对于任何从一种主要文化转变为另一种主要文化的人来说都是如此，新地方很可能因为你离开的组织的价值观而不是行为而雇用你。

Bob Baxley: And so I think it's important to recalibrate and say, well, I want to hold onto these values.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：所以我认为重新调整并说，嗯，我想坚持这些价值观很重要。

So at Apple, attention to detail, product excellence, doing everything you can for the customer and the user so try to hold onto those values but then think, okay, how are those values best expressed in this culture?

因此，在苹果公司，注重细节，产品卓越，竭尽全力为客户和用户服务，因此尝试坚持这些价值观，但然后想一想，好吧，这些价值观如何在这种文化中得到最好的表达？

I was more successful at expressing those values in the culture of ThoughtSpot, which was my last job than I was in the culture of Pinterest.

我在 ThoughtSpot（这是我最后一份工作）的文化中比在 Pinterest 的文化中更成功地表达了这些价值观。

If I had to do it again, I could probably do better at Pinterest.

如果我必须再做一次，我可能会在 Pinterest 做得更好。

I think that's useful for anybody leaving one very specific culture and going someplace else, try to hold onto the values but not the behaviors.

我认为这对于任何离开一种非常特定的文化并前往其他地方的人来说都是有用的，尝试坚持价值观而不是行为。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is so interesting and I appreciate you sharing that, the way you described it that it wasn't a successful stint at Pinterest.

Lenny Rachitsky：这太有趣了，我很感谢您分享这一点，您描述的方式表明在 Pinterest 的工作并不成功。

A lot of people don't share that sort of story and don't put it that way.

很多人不分享这样的故事，也不那样说。

They see on their LinkedIn, oh, a head of design at Pinterest.

他们在 LinkedIn 上看到，哦，是 Pinterest 的设计主管。

Oh, amazing so cool.

哦，太棒了太酷了。

And then if you're like, oh, okay, but it didn't work out that well, I think that's really interesting.

然后，如果你说，哦，好吧，但效果不太好，我认为这真的很有趣。

Is there anything more you can share there about what you learned for other people to maybe avoid that sort of situation?

您是否可以与其他人分享您学到的更多内容，以避免这种情况？

Anything you took away from that experience?

你从那次经历中得到了什么？

Bob Baxley: One of my friends that was at Pinterest, I'm still friends with, he said, "I just thought of it as you bounced off the culture." I think that's kind of the way to think of it.

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：我在 Pinterest 的一位朋友，我现在仍然是朋友，他说，“我只是在你摆脱文化的时候想到了这一点。”我认为这是一种思考方式。

I came in thinking I was supposed to behave the way I behaved at Apple, which is very direct, fighting hard.

我进来时认为我应该像在苹果公司那样行事，非常直接，努力奋斗。

Everybody cares about each other.

每个人都互相关心。

It's never insulting, but it's intense.

它从来没有侮辱性，但很强烈。

That's not really where Pinterest was at the time.

Pinterest 当时的情况并非如此。

Again, all this is a decade ago, so I don't know what any of these companies are like today, but at least when I was there, Pinterest had posters in every conference room that said, big poster that said, say the hard thing.

再说一次，这一切都是十年前的事了，所以我不知道这些公司今天是什么样子，但至少当我在那里的时候，Pinterest 在每个会议室里都有海报，上面写着，大海报上写着，说出困难的事情。

Well, that's where Pinterest was at the time, and I can assure you nobody at Apple was having to remind you to say the hard thing.

嗯，这就是 Pinterest 当时的情况，我可以向你保证，苹果公司没有人需要提醒你说难的话。

Bob Baxley: And so I probably could have picked up on that better than I did.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：所以我可能可以比我更好地理解这一点。

I'll say these careers are really hard and the higher up you go, people think of it like you're climbing a pyramid.

我想说这些职业真的很艰难，你爬得越高，人们就会认为你正在爬金字塔。

I think of it more like you're going out on a branch on a tree and the branch gets a lot more flimsy and can break and you can fall and you get buffeted about by the wind.

我认为这更像是你在树上的树枝上出去，树枝变得更加脆弱，可能会折断，你可能会跌倒，你会被风吹来吹去。

It's often at a time in your life when there's a lot going on with your family, there could be things going on with your parents' health.

在您生命中的某个时刻，当您的家人发生很多事情时，您父母的健康可能会出现问题。

I lost my mother when I was at Pinterest.

当我在 Pinterest 工作时，我失去了母亲。

My kids were starting high school, so we're struggling with the teenage years.

我的孩子们开始上高中了，所以我们正在努力度过青少年时期。

I had a long commute.

我的通勤时间很长。

It's a lot going on and these jobs are super demanding.

发生了很多事情，而且这些工作的要求非常高。

Bob Baxley: Everything around you is changing really rapidly and you're under tremendous pressure because the financial and success stakes are super high.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：你周围的一切都在迅速变化，你承受着巨大的压力，因为财务和成功的赌注非常高。

I think the people falling off of these jobs is the common use case.

我认为人们放弃这些工作是常见的用例。

That is the common story.

这是常见的故事。

We have a bias towards survivors and we all talk about how it looks like they made it to the top, but everybody that makes it to the top, there's hundreds of people that don't.

我们对幸存者有偏见，我们都在谈论他们如何登上顶峰，但每个到达顶峰的人，还有数百人没有。

One of the things I took away when I was at Pinterest was I came to think that the job of a startup was to grow the founder so they could continue to lead the startup.

我在 Pinterest 时学到的一件事是，我开始认为初创公司的工作就是培养创始人，以便他们能够继续领导这家初创公司。

I think what's true for founders, also true for a lot of the other folks in the executive staff, it's very hard to grow emotionally and developmentally at the rate that the company grows.

我认为对于创始人来说是这样，对于高管人员中的许多其他人来说也是如此，在情感和发展上很难按照公司的发展速度成长。

Bob Baxley: A lot of times I think people get outgrown by the role, and I saw that across Apple.

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：很多时候我认为人们已经无法适应这个角色了，我在整个苹果公司都看到了这一点。

I've experienced that myself at different times in my career.

我在职业生涯的不同时期都经历过这一点。

I see that happening with my friends and it feels like a failure.

我看到我的朋友们也发生了这种事，感觉就像是失败。

I mean, that is the human experience, that's what happens.

我的意思是，这就是人类的经历，这就是发生的事情。

It's very hard to grow as fast as some of these companies are growing and we could debate the merits of Mark Zuckerberg for example.

想要像其中一些公司一样快速增长是非常困难的，例如，我们可以讨论马克·扎克伯格的优点。

But when you think about the trajectory from being a kid in a dorm room to within five years, Facebook's a big thing.

但当你思考从宿舍里的孩子到五年内的发展轨迹时，Facebook 是一件大事。

I mean, think of your own life.

我的意思是，想想你自己的生活。

Can you process that level of evolution and change?

你能处理那种程度的进化和变化吗？

I don't know, I think that's really super hard to do that and stay balanced.

我不知道，我认为做到这一点并保持平衡真的非常困难。

Lenny Rachitsky: And also keep doing that for so long.

Lenny Rachitsky：并且还要长期这样做。

There'll be founders, I think it was Brian's maybe first job or second job, and he's doing that now for 15 years in a row.

将会有创始人，我认为这可能是 Brian 的第一份工作或第二份工作，而他现在已经连续 15 年这样做了。

Bob Baxley: Oh, founders, it's their life.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：哦，创始人，这就是他们的生活。

It's very unusual to see founders move out.

创始人离职的情况很不寻常。

I had this other theory that a startup is still a startup until the founder moves aside.

我还有另一个理论：在创始​​人离开之前，初创公司仍然是一家初创公司。

By my definition of even Meta is still a startup in a way that Amazon's not, and Airbnb is still a startup in a way that Pinterest is not because Ben's moved on.

根据我对 Meta 的定义，即使是 Meta 仍然是一家初创公司，但亚马逊不是，而 Airbnb 仍然是一家初创公司，但 Pinterest 也不是，因为 Ben 已经离开了。

You don't find out if the culture can sustain itself until the founders are gone and then you really see what's going to happen.

在创始人离开之前，你不会发现这种文化是否能够维持下去，然后你才能真正看到会发生什么。

Lenny Rachitsky: Just to close the loop here, one takeaway here that I think is really interesting is that you can fail in a job and things will be okay.

Lenny Rachitsky：为了结束这个循环，我认为非常有趣的一个要点是，你可以在工作中失败，但一切都会好起来的。

Clearly you're doing A okay and having a place that doesn't work out, doesn't destroy your career, which I think a lot of people feel like if they're not doing well in their current job, it's over.

显然，你做得很好，有一个不成功的地方，不会毁掉你的职业生涯，我想很多人都会觉得，如果他们在当前的工作中表现不佳，那就结束了。

Things are all going to go downhill

一切都会走下坡路

Bob Baxley: Your career's not your life.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：你的职业不是你的生活。

There's a lot more to it than that.

还有更多的事情要做。

Lenny Rachitsky: And then just to give someone something tactical here, so you've realized the culture of Pinterest, you bounced off of it.

Lenny Rachitsky：然后只是为了给某人一些战术上的东西，这样你就了解了 Pinterest 的文化，你就摆脱了它。

I love that metaphor.

我喜欢这个比喻。

If you were to, when you're looking at new companies, what's one thing you look at or a question you ask or something you now look at to make sure you avoid that in the future, that culture clash?

如果你要这样做，当你在寻找新公司时，你会看什么，你会问什么问题，或者你现在会看什么，以确保你在未来避免这种文化冲突？

Bob Baxley: I'm fortunate at this stage of my career that I usually get to interview with the CEO or the founders or something like that.

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：在我职业生涯的这个阶段，我很幸运，通常可以采访首席执行官或创始人或类似的人。

What I'm usually looking for is do they have a story as to why they believe in design?

我通常寻找的是他们是否有一个关于为什么相信设计的故事？

Really in their heart and soul, do they care about design?

他们真心实意地关心设计吗？

Because if I go into a company that doesn't really value the thing that I do, I'm just not going to have a great time and I'm going to be constantly buffeting up against all sorts of people.

因为如果我进入一家并不真正重视我所做的事情的公司，我就不会度过愉快的时光，而且我会不断地与各种各样的人发生冲突。

I want to make sure I've got air cover from the highest people in the company setting the culture.

我想确保我得到公司文化设定最高层人士的支持。

Bob Baxley: In the case of, again, my most recent job was with a company called ThoughtSpot.

Bob Baxley：我最近的工作是在一家名为 ThoughtSpot 的公司。

And ThoughtSpot was founded by a gentleman named Ajeet Singh, and Ajeet grew up in rural India, but he tells this really great story about he studied chemical engineering, he moves to the United States.

ThoughtSpot 是由一位名叫 Ajeet Singh 的绅士创立的，Ajeet 在印度农村长大，但他讲述了一个关于他学习化学工程，然后搬到美国的伟大故事。

Early in his career, he's working for Honeywell and they did a couple of engagements with IDEO.

在他职业生涯的早期，他在 Honeywell 工作，他们与 IDEO 进行了几次合作。

As a very young person, he got to see what IDEO did and he realized the power of design and he's taken that to all of his companies.

作为一个非常年轻的人，他看到了 IDEO 所做的事情，他意识到了设计的力量，并将其带到了他的所有公司。

He started Nutanix before he came to ThoughtSpot, before he started ThoughtSpot.

在他来到 ThoughtSpot 之前，在他创办 ThoughtSpot 之前，他就创办了 Nutanix。

And so when I heard that, I'm like, oh, this is a guy that gets design right from the very beginning.

所以当我听到这个消息时，我就想，哦，这是一个从一开始就开始设计的人。

Bob Baxley: I've also come to believe that I actually have never seen a company that grafted design on after the founding.

Bob Baxley：我也开始相信，我实际上从未见过一家公司在成立后就嫁接了设计。

I could name lots of companies that I think are kind of design led, not always designer led, but design led or design centric.

我可以说出很多我认为是设计主导的公司，并不总是设计师主导，而是设计主导或以设计为中心。

But I've never seen somebody grafted on after the fact.

但我从未见过有人事后嫁接。

It's there at the beginning in the root DNA or doesn't exist.

它一开始就存在于根 DNA 中，或者根本不存在。

And so the thing that I'm looking for when I interview is, is it there at the beginning?

所以我在面试时要寻找的东西是，它在一开始就存在吗？

Can I get a credible story that tracks it back to that?

我能得到一个可信的故事来追溯到那件事吗？

Bob Baxley: And if that's the case, then I think I can find a way to navigate in that culture.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：如果是这样的话，那么我想我可以找到一种在这种文化中导航的方法。

We have a shared value system in a way that as an American, I could immigrate to Australia and the culture would be slightly different, but we'd have a shared value system that I could relate to.

我们有一个共同的价值体系，作为一个美国人，我可以移民到澳大利亚，文化会略有不同，但我们有一个我可以认同的共同价值体系。

If I moved to, I don't know, Burma or China or something, it would be wildly more challenging because the base view of the world, the base understanding of the world's just different and it'd be much harder for me to adapt to that.

如果我搬到，我不知道，缅甸或中国或其他地方，那会更具挑战性，因为对世界的基本看法，对世界的基本理解不同，我会更难适应。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think a way to extrapolate that insight is just whatever function you're in, get a sense of how important that function is to that business.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为推断这种洞察力的一种方法是，无论您处于哪个职能部门，都要了解该职能对该业务的重要性。

Do the founders value engineering?

创始人重视工程吗？

Do they value product?

他们重视产品吗？

Do they value design?

他们重视设计吗？

Depending on who you are.

取决于你是谁。

Bob Baxley: Why would you want to work in a place that doesn't value the thing that you do?

鲍勃·巴克斯利：你为什么想在一个不重视你所做的事情的地方工作？

God, that would suck.

天哪，那太糟糕了。

Lenny Rachitsky: You actually have a really unique perspective on just what is design that I haven't heard before.

Lenny Rachitsky：实际上，你对于什么是设计有着非常独特的视角，这是我以前从未听说过的。

Let me ask you that question is what is design?

让我问你这个问题，什么是设计？

Bob Baxley: Well, I'm going to go back to the Edward Tufte quote that I use all the time, which is design is clear thinking made visible.

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：嗯，我要回到我一直使用的爱德华·塔夫特（Edward Tufte）的名言，那就是设计是清晰的思维变得可见。

And so I think most people when they talk about design, they think of it as the visual expression of an idea.

所以我认为大多数人当谈论设计时，他们认为它是一个想法的视觉表达。

They think of it as a team or a function or a group.

他们将其视为一个团队、一个职能或一个团体。

I think of it as a holistic mindset.

我认为这是一种整体思维方式。

When design thinking became big, I was always really confused because I didn't know how else you could think.

当设计思维变得很大时，我总是很困惑，因为我不知道你还能怎么想。

That was just how I naturally thought, which is design is trying to imagine the future you want to live in and then take the steps to make it real.

这正是我自然而然的想法，设计就是试图想象你想要生活的未来，然后采取措施使其成为现实。

Bob Baxley: It's living with a certain type of intentionality in almost a Buddhist type way, which is different from science, which is observational trying to understand.

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：它以一种几乎佛教式的方式以某种类型的意向性生活，这与科学不同，科学是通过观察来试图理解。

It's a little bit different from engineering, which is we kind of know where we want go at the end, but we're trying to go one step at a time versus design's trying to see some further out future state and account for a larger or a different set of constraints and issues than engineering or some of the other problem solving methodologies.

它与工程有点不同，我们知道最终我们想要走向何方，但我们试图一步一步地前进，而设计则试图看到更远的未来状态，并考虑比工程或其他一些问题解决方法更大或一组不同的约束和问题。

Again, I look at it as a company, does the company think in a design mindset and Apple does, Airbnb does.

再次，我将其视为一家公司，该公司是否以设计思维进行思考，苹果、Airbnb 都是如此。

I don't get the sense that Google does and I don't get the sense that Amazon does.

我不明白谷歌的感觉，也不明白亚马逊的感觉。

That's not a critique on them.

这不是对他们的批评。

I don't think that those organizations are competing on design in the same way.

我不认为这些组织会以同样的方式在设计上展开竞争。

But again, I want to go work at a place that as an organization thinks in a design type method.

但同样，我想在一个以设计类型方法思考的组织工作。

Lenny Rachitsky: Along those lines, a lot of people imagine every founder, every product builder is just, yes, I'd love amazing design.

Lenny Rachitsky：沿着这些思路，很多人想象每个创始人、每个产品构建者只是，是的，我喜欢令人惊叹的设计。

I'd love our products to be incredibly beautiful, intuitive, so easy for everyone to use and understand, but they don't actually invest in these areas and they don't put a lot of resources into the designing process.

我希望我们的产品非常漂亮、直观、易于每个人使用和理解，但他们实际上并没有在这些领域进行投资，也没有在设计过程中投入大量资源。

What's the best pitch you can make and that you do make to companies to help them see the strategic value of design and the bottom of the value of design.

你可以向公司做的最好的宣传是什么，以帮助他们了解设计的战略价值和设计价值的底层。

Bob Baxley: Let me back up and just dissect a little bit the way you described design, you described it in really tactical terms.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：让我回顾一下，稍微剖析一下你描述设计的方式，你用真正的战术术语来描述它。

You said beautiful, intuitive products that make sense.

你说的是漂亮、直观、有意义的产品。

I think it was something like that.

我认为是这样的。

What you were describing was you were describing the part of the iceberg that sits above the water line, which is the result.

你所描述的是冰山位于吃水线以上的部分，这就是结果。

That's one of the outcomes of design, but that's not the real heavy lifting of design.

这是设计的结果之一，但这并不是设计的真正重担。

Design is more like liberal arts or philosophy or something.

设计更像是文科或哲学什么的。

It's like what do we try to achieve at a much lower level?

这就像我们试图在更低的层次上实现什么？

And so what I talk to founders and people about the value of design, what I'm pushing them on is when we can get organizational alignment around what we want to do philosophically, why do we exist?

因此，我与创始人和人们谈论设计的价值，我要推动他们的是，当我们能够围绕我们想要做的事情在哲学上达成组织一致时，我们为什么存在？

What's the vision for the company?

公司的愿景是什么？

How do all these things ladder up through vision, through mission, through specific tenets, design strategies.

所有这些事情如何通过愿景、使命、具体原则、设计策略逐步提升。

Bob Baxley: And then into actual execution.

Bob Baxley：然后进入实际执行。

How do we ladder that whole thing up so it makes sense as a whole?

我们如何将整个事情逐步提升，使其整体上有意义？

That's the magic of design.

这就是设计的魔力。

The difference is when you design things, you end up with a bunch of bricks that are piled into a beautiful impenetrable wall.

不同之处在于，当你设计东西时，你最终会得到一堆砖块，这些砖块被堆成一堵美丽且无法穿透的墙。

If you don't do that, you end up with a bunch of bricks scattered across the backyard and they don't really add up to anything.

如果你不这样做，你最终会在后院里散落一堆砖头，而它们实际上并没有任何意义。

I think that's one of the things, if you look, again to go back to Apple, but we could also talk about Lego Lyca, Porsche, Airbnb, Patagonia, there's other companies that make sense as a design centered organization.

我认为这是其中一件事，如果你再看看苹果，但我们也可以谈论乐高莱卡、保时捷、爱彼迎、巴塔哥尼亚，还有其他公司作为以设计为中心的组织是有意义的。

If you think about everything they do, it all ladders together into one cohesive sensical thing.

如果你仔细想想他们所做的一切，你会发现这一切都汇聚成一件有凝聚力的、有意义的事情。

It's integrated.

它是集成的。

Makes sense as a unit.

作为一个单位才有意义。

Bob Baxley: I think that's a huge difference and an incredible strategic advantage because the company can operate with much greater efficiency.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：我认为这是一个巨大的差异，也是一个令人难以置信的战略优势，因为公司可以以更高的效率运营。

They can onboard new people and get them in line.

他们可以帮助新人加入并让他们排队。

Even Apple, for example, the team that designed the online store, we had six designers for a store that ran in 30 some odd countries, 12 and a half thousand instances of the store doing billions of dollars of revenue.

例如，即使是苹果公司，设计在线商店的团队，我们的商店也有六名设计师，该商店在 30 多个国家/地区运营，该商店有 12 个半千个实例，收入达数十亿美元。

We had six designers.

我们有六名设计师。

Any other company would've had 60 or more.

任何其他公司都会有 60 个或更多。

Apple's able to operate with much smaller staff because they have real clarity of vision of what they're doing.

苹果之所以能够以少得多的员工规模开展业务，是因为他们对自己所做的事情有着真正清晰的愿景。

And the benefit of operating with a smaller staff is not just that it saves money on payroll, it's that you have...

与较少员工一起运营的好处不仅在于节省工资，还在于您...

The way the minds come together to create something that feels like a single whole is a much higher chance when you have fewer people involved.

当参与的人较少时，人们聚集在一起创造出感觉像是一个整体的东西的机会就会大得多。

Bob Baxley: I joke about The Beatles.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：我拿披头士乐队开玩笑。

You get The Beatles with four people, you don't get The Beatles with eight people and you certainly don't get it with 24 people.

甲壳虫乐队有四个人，你不会有八个人，更不可能有 24 个人。

The teams get too big and you can't get that what Brian Eno calls scenius.

团队规模太大，你就无法达到布莱恩·伊诺所说的“天才”。

Brian Eno has this great word that he uses, scenius is the genius that comes when you have a group together.

布莱恩·伊诺（Brian Eno）有一个很棒的词，scenius 是当你有一个团队在一起时就会出现的天才。

Scenius is the collective idea of genius and I think that's something that's really magical that I've experienced in my career, but usually in smaller groups.

Scenius 是天才的集体观念，我认为这是我在职业生涯中经历过的非常神奇的事情，但通常是在较小的群体中。

It's hard to do with a giant group.

对于一个庞大的集团来说，这是很难做到的。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love this metaphor of The Beatles as the way most people describe this is designed by committee never works.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢披头士乐队的这个比喻，因为大多数人描述的方式是由委员会设计的，但从来没有起作用。

I love that the way you describe it is the Beatles is like the ideal size a small group versus a committee.

我喜欢你描述披头士乐队的方式就像一个小团体与一个委员会的理想规模。

Bob Baxley: I just always have to point out to people that there are 20 people that worked on the original Mac.

Bob Baxley：我总是必须向人们指出，有 20 个人参与了最初的 Mac 工作。

I mean it's 20 of them, that's it, 20.

我的意思是有 20 个，就是这样，20 个。

Susan Kare was one of them, Andy Hertzfeld, you go through the list, 20 of them are on the patent.

Susan Kare 就是其中之一，Andy Hertzfeld，你浏览一下这个列表，其中 20 个都在专利上。

There's 24 that are on the iPhone patent.

iPhone 专利中有 24 项。

Now there's other people involved, but generally there's 24 people on the iPhone patent.

现在还有其他人参与其中，但 iPhone 专利一般有 24 人。

And that was the team.

这就是团队。

That was Project Purple that was doing that stuff.

那是紫色计划在做的事情。

These are not massive massive groups doing these things.

这些并不是做这些事情的庞大团体。

If you had put a massive group, I don't know man, maybe it'd end up with the Zune or something completely different.

如果你组织了一个庞大的团队，我不知道，也许最终会出现 Zune 或完全不同的东西。

Who knows?

谁知道？

Lenny Rachitsky: They probably did have a massive group on the Zune.

Lenny Rachitsky：他们可能在 Zune 上有一个庞大的群组。

Bob Baxley: Yeah, so there's something, four is too few for what we're trying to achieve at scale.

Bob Baxley：是的，所以有一点，对于我们想要大规模实现的目标来说，四个太少了。

But even if you look at Pixar, any good movie on the scripting and story side, it's usually a fairly small team.

但即使你看看皮克斯，任何一部在剧本和故事方面都出色的电影，通常都是一个相当小的团队。

Even when you move into character development, stuff like that, it's fairly small and then it really scales when you move into production.

即使当你进入角色开发之类的时候，它也相当小，然后当你进入制作时它就会真正扩展。

It's just hard to figure out something new to do together when there's too many people involved.

当涉及的人太多时，很难找到一起做的新事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think that word new is really key here.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为“新”这个词在这里非常关键。

I think when people hear this advice, they're thinking at their existing company, should we just keep our company small?

我认为当人们听到这个建议时，他们会想到他们现有的公司，我们应该让我们的公司保持小规模吗？

Should we not scale this thing that we have?

我们不应该扩展我们拥有的这个东西吗？

I think what you're describing, which I completely agree with is new stuff for sure you want to keep the team small and tight, but as things grow and scale, what's your take on just, okay, actually it's okay to have a lot of people on this.

我认为你所描述的（我完全同意）是新事物，你肯定希望保持团队小而紧凑，但随着事情的发展和规模化，你的看法是什么，好吧，实际上有很多人参与这件事是可以的。

Bob Baxley: Well, you have to bring a lot of people in once you figure out what you're doing.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：嗯，一旦你弄清楚自己在做什么，你就必须让很多人参与进来。

And so to your point, once you realize you're building Disneyland and you've got the whole thing set and people know what it's about, then they can come in and understand, oh, I'm playing my piece over here.

因此，就你的观点而言，一旦你意识到你正在建造迪士尼乐园，并且你已经完成了整个事情，并且人们知道它是关于什么的，那么他们就可以进来并理解，哦，我正在这里演奏我的作品。

I'm supposed to design the line experience for the new ride sitting in Tomorrowland, but I know where that fits into this larger thing.

我应该为明日世界的新游乐设施设计线路体验，但我知道它适合这个更大的东西。

I think you can scale once you have clarity of vision, but it's very difficult to get vision with a lot of people.

我认为一旦你有了清晰的愿景，你就可以扩大规模，但与很多人一起获得愿景是非常困难的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Great.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

I think that's really powerful advice.

我认为这是非常有力的建议。

It's just when you're starting something new.

就在你开始新事物的时候。

I actually had a CPA of N26 who was basically leading Google Hangouts, the initial launch of Google Hangouts, and he told the story of they put so many resources on it.

我实际上有一个 N26 的注册会计师，他基本上领导了 Google Hangouts，这是 Google Hangouts 的最初推出，他讲述了他们在上面投入了如此多资源的故事。

We got to win.

我们必须赢。

We got to do this.

我们必须这样做。

Larry Page or Sergey was sitting next to him just like we got to make this work and putting everything they could into it and it didn't work out.

拉里·佩奇（Larry Page）或谢尔盖（Sergey）坐在他旁边，就像我们必须让这项工作成功并投入他们所能的一切，但没有成功。

And I think that's-

我认为那就是——

Bob Baxley: No, no, the more people you put in it, the slower everything becomes.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：不，不，你投入的人越多，一切就会变得越慢。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to go back to something you said about what design is.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想回到你所说的关于设计是什么的话题。

I think this is really interesting.

我认为这真的很有趣。

And so the way you described design to a lot of people, it sounds like that's like product management also and product leadership, setting, strategy, vision, figuring out how everything fits together.

所以你向很多人描述设计的方式，听起来就像产品管理和产品领导力、设置、战略、愿景，弄清楚一切如何结合在一起。

I think your experience here, I think Apple is a very different kind of company where design actually leads a lot of this.

我认为你在这里的经历，我认为苹果是一家非常不同的公司，设计实际上在很大程度上起着主导作用。

At a lot of other companies, it doesn't work that way.

在许多其他公司，情况并非如此。

Any thoughts?

有什么想法吗？

And just how you advise companies, think about the split between design and product management that aren't Apple.

至于你如何为公司提供建议，请考虑一下设计和产品管理之间的分歧，而不是苹果公司。

Bob Baxley: One of the best lines I ever heard was from my friend Joseph O'Sullivan at dinner one night.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：我听过的最好的台词之一是我的朋友约瑟夫·奥沙利文在一天晚上的晚餐上说的。

He said saying a company is design led does not mean it's designer led.

他说，说一家公司是设计主导的并不意味着它是设计师主导的。

And so what I try to hammer home with people is that when I talk about design as a mindset, I'm talking about it as a mindset.

因此，我试图向人们强调的是，当我谈论设计作为一种心态时，我是在谈论它作为一种心态。

Anybody could have that mindset functioning in any role, any designer could have a product mindset.

任何人都可以在任何角色中发挥这种思维方式，任何设计师都可以拥有产品思维方式。

In fact, I think that's a lot of what the design community is trying to get at now when they say designers should be speaking the language of business.

事实上，我认为，当设计界说设计师应该讲商业语言时，他们现在正在试图理解这一点。

I think what they're saying is designers need to inhabit the product mindset as well.

我认为他们所说的是设计师也需要融入产品思维。

Maybe to some degree even the sales mindset.

也许在某种程度上甚至是销售心态。

Bob Baxley: Look, both functions matter.

Bob Baxley：看，这两个功能都很重要。

I look at my counterparts in product and I assume that they're much better connected to the customer, that they understand much better the business realities, and I expect them to drive the roadmap.

我观察了产品领域的同行，认为他们与客户的联系要好得多，他们更了解业务现实，我希望他们能够推动路线图。

I may have some points of view on the roadmap.

我可能对路线图有一些看法。

I may offer some critique.

我可能会提出一些批评。

I may have my own suggestions and agenda in there.

我可能有我自己的建议和议程。

But once they say this is the roadmap, I have to believe that they're right and I don't try to bleed into their space.

但一旦他们说这就是路线图，我就必须相信他们是对的，而且我不会试图介入他们的空间。

I very much believe that once you get into a company, your job is to figure out your role and respect the boundaries between the different groups.

我非常相信，一旦你进入一家公司，你的工作就是弄清楚自己的角色并尊重不同群体之间的界限。

Bob Baxley: I'm like, you guys tell us what you need us to do, what the features need to be, when they need to be delivered, what the issues are, and then give us the time and space to come up with a solution to those problems.

Bob Baxley：我想，你们告诉我们需要我们做什么、需要什么功能、需要何时交付、存在什么问题，然后给我们时间和空间来找到这些问题的解决方案。

And then we can work together to decide whether or not our solutions actually solve the problem as you understand it, but I'll stay out of your roadmap and you stay out of my design stop and let's try to get to the promised land together.

然后我们可以共同努力决定我们的解决方案是否真正解决了您所理解的问题，但我将不介入您的路线图，您也不介入我的设计站，让我们一起努力到达应许之地。

I assume that the product managers, particularly in enterprise SaaS companies, like my team, ThoughtSpot did data analytics.

我认为产品经理，尤其是企业 SaaS 公司的产品经理，就像我的团队 ThoughtSpot 一样从事数据分析。

My team didn't know anything about data analytics.

我的团队对数据分析一无所知。

We didn't have any of that insight.

我们没有任何这样的洞察力。

We didn't have the bandwidth, the mental horsepower to go out and do that stuff.

我们没有足够的带宽和精力去做这些事情。

We had our hands full just trying to figure out the UI.

我们忙得不可开交，只是想弄清楚用户界面。

Bob Baxley: It's one of the points I try to make too, when people are starting to theorize that gen AI can remove teammates and oh, the designers don't need engineers and the PMs don't need the designers and everybody thinks they can throw engineering overboard.

Bob Baxley：这也是我试图提出的观点之一，当人们开始理论认为人工智能可以消除队友时，哦，设计师不需要工程师，PM 不需要设计师，每个人都认为他们可以把工程扔到一边。

And I'm like, stop it.

我想，停止吧。

We all need each other and we need each other because we need those different mindsets.

我们都需要彼此，我们彼此需要，因为我们需要不同的心态。

One of those mindsets inhabits somebody's head completely.

其中一种心态完全存在于某人的头脑中。

I just don't think you can simultaneously hold multiple mindsets in your head.

我只是认为你不能同时在头脑中持有多种心态。

It's not that one of my PM counterparts couldn't bring a lot to the design table, it's just I need you to play that position.

这并不是说我的一位 PM 同事不能为设计带来很多东西，只是我需要你扮演这个角色。

Like in baseball, the second-

就像棒球一样，第二个——

Bob Baxley: Like in baseball, the second baseman doesn't cover first.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：就像棒球一样，二垒手不先覆盖。

That's not how it works.

事情不是这样的。

Everybody's got to spread the field and play their position so we can take care of the whole thing and respect that together we're going to come up with something better than any one of us would've come up with alone and embrace the creative tension, welcome it.

每个人都必须扩大视野，发挥自己的作用，这样我们才能照顾好整个事情，并尊重我们将共同想出比我们任何人单独想出的更好的东西，并拥抱创造性的张力，欢迎它。

We still have to all go out to lunch and love each other and have fun together and keep in mind that we're having fun together, but I like the rub.

我们仍然必须出去吃午饭，彼此相爱，一起玩得开心，并记住我们在一起玩得开心，但我喜欢这种摩擦。

That's where all the magic happens.

这就是所有魔法发生的地方。

Lenny Rachitsky: That was a very illuminating clarification.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常有启发性的澄清。

Something else that I heard you believe that I haven't heard before is that design share report to engineering.

我听说你相信我以前从未听说过的另一件事是向工程部门提交的设计共享报告。

Bob Baxley: So I'll say that every company culture is different and different organizations work in different ways.

Bob Baxley：所以我想说，每个公司的文化都是不同的，不同的组织以不同的方式运作。

In my experience, I think that design is most successful at impacting what ships at the end if design is considered phase zero of the engineering process, rather than a by product or a part of the product process.

根据我的经验，我认为如果设计被视为工程过程的零阶段，而不是副产品或产品过程的一部分，那么设计在影响最终交付的产品方面是最成功的。

What I've seen happen over and over in my experience, a ThoughtSpot, Pinterest, other places when you're working directly with product, it's easy to leave engineering out of the loop and product and design can go cook up stuff that doesn't quite make sense technically or is really hard to implement or is just a bridge too far.

根据我的经验，在 ThoughtSpot、Pinterest 和其他地方，当你直接使用产品时，很容易将工程排除在外，而产品和设计可能会做出一些技术上不太有意义的东西，或者确实很难实现，或者只是一座太过遥远的桥梁。

And I think that engineering doesn't feel like they're a part of it, so you bring them at the end and they haven't really been brought along so they don't quite understand how to extrapolate from the specs you make into what should really ship.

我认为工程并不感觉他们是其中的一部分，所以你在最后把他们带来了，但他们并没有真正被带来，所以他们不太明白如何从你制定的规格中推断出真正应该交付的东西。

Bob Baxley: Maybe they don't bring the same level of enthusiasm to it, because they haven't been brought along.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：也许他们没有带来同样程度的热情，因为他们没有被带来。

So I think there's something about having the design and engineering team very tightly connected and kind of living together.

所以我认为让设计和工程团队紧密联系并共同生活是有道理的。

And it's not that you have to do that structurally from an organization point of view, but it's hard-pressed if you don't.

从组织的角度来看，并不是说你必须在结构上这样做，但如果你不这样做，那就很难了。

I also think you can just account for timelines and costs and things better when design's part of engineering.

我还认为，当设计是工程的一部分时，您可以更好地考虑时间表和成本等问题。

And many of my design friends will push back on this and they'll say design should be its own thing and it should be an independent group and we should have three co-equal branches of government, and that's a solid argument as well, and there's some places where that works beautifully.

我的许多设计朋友会反对这一点，他们会说设计应该是它自己的事情，它应该是一个独立的团体，我们应该拥有三个平等的政府部门，这也是一个坚实的论点，而且在某些地方它运作得很好。

My experiences at design rarely has a budget or an army, and so it's very hard for them to really hold their own in that sort of a setting.

我的设计经验很少有预算或军队，因此他们很难在这种环境下真正保持自己的地位。

Bob Baxley: Also, although you'll see people argue with me on LinkedIn about how design needs to be measured and we need to have metrics and be held accountable for a number, I don't really believe that in my heart.

Bob Baxley：此外，尽管你会在 LinkedIn 上看到人们与我争论如何衡量设计以及我们需要制定指标并对数字负责，但我内心并不真正相信这一点。

I've just never seen a number that you could apply to design that we could reliably affect.

我只是从来没有见过一个可以应用于我们可以可靠影响的设计的数字。

So I think it's very hard to hold design as an organization accountable for a particular outcome the way that most of the other C-level roles are held accountable.

因此，我认为很难让设计作为一个组织对特定结果负责，就像大多数其他 C 级角色一样。

Sales has a number, engineering has very specific expectations, product has very specific expectations.

销售有数字，工程有非常具体的期望，产品有非常具体的期望。

And although I know this will frustrate some of my friends, I just haven't been able to figure out how that works for design.

尽管我知道这会让我的一些朋友感到沮丧，但我只是无法弄清楚这对设计有何作用。

And again, it can vary from culture to culture.

同样，它可能因文化而异。

Certainly there's very successful chief design officers and we could go through the list.

当然，有非常成功的首席设计官，我们可以浏览一下名单。

I just think in many companies it's a stretch, it's just hard.

我只是认为在很多公司里这是一个延伸，而且很难。

Lenny Rachitsky: What I see work, and I'm curious to get your take is just product, engineering, design have exactly the same goal and the more everyone...

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为有效，我很想知道你的看法，产品、工程、设计都有完全相同的目标，而且每个人都......

And their performance as an employee is tied to the same thing essentially because then everyone is pushing in the same direction versus like, oh, I have my engineering goal, I have my design goal, I have my PM goal, and just creates all kinds of weird incentives.

他们作为员工的表现本质上与同一件事相关，因为每个人都在朝着同一个方向前进，而不是像，哦，我有我的工程目标，我有我的设计目标，我有我的 PM 目标，并且只是创造了各种奇怪的激励措施。

Bob Baxley: Yeah, look, I would kind of defer to you on that, honestly.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：是的，老实说，我会在这方面听从你的意见。

You've talked to a lot more people across a lot more companies, so you have a much broader set of information you're working with.

您已经与更多公司的更多人交谈过，因此您拥有更广泛的信息集。

If you add my whole career together, I've worked at maybe half a dozen places, so a fairly limited sample set.

如果你把我的整个职业生涯加在一起，我可能在六个地方工作过，所以样本集相当有限。

And every design team that I've ever been a part of, I've been a part of.

我曾经加入过的每一个设计团队，我都曾参与过。

So I also kind of have a biased view as to what didn't work for me in those particular organizations.

因此，对于在这些特定组织中什么对我不起作用，我也有一种偏见。

I'll go back to what I said, every company's different, every culture is slightly different.

我回到我刚才所说的，每个公司都是不同的，每种文化都略有不同。

It's not one size fits all.

它不是一刀切的。

Bob Baxley: I point out the idea of design reporting to engineering just because I don't think people consider the possibility often enough.

Bob Baxley：我向工程部门提出设计报告的想法只是因为我认为人们没有足够频繁地考虑这种可能性。

So there's three options, design is its own thing, design is part of product, design is part of engineering.

所以有三个选择，设计是它自己的事情，设计是产品的一部分，设计是工程的一部分。

And I think there's a moment when you can back up and make an intelligent choice about the pros and cons for each of those options inside your org.

我认为，在某个时刻，您可以对组织内每个选项的利弊进行备份并做出明智的选择。

And so I would encourage people to just take a design mentality and put on that designer mindset just for a moment and say, well, what's the thing that we're trying to produce?

因此，我鼓励人们采取设计心态，暂时表现出设计师的心态，然后说，好吧，我们想要生产什么东西？

What's the incentives that we're trying to create?

我们试图创造什么激励措施？

What's the future state that we're trying to get to?

我们想要达到的未来状态是什么？

And which of these three options, permutations is going to help us get there the best?

这三个选项中，哪一个排列最能帮助我们实现这一目标？

Lenny Rachitsky: I love how radical this idea is.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个想法的激进性。

I've not heard it.

我没听说过。

I think designers will be like, " You stop it.

我认为设计师会说，“你停下来吧。

Just stop it." So have you operated this way?

停下来吧。”那么你有这样操作过吗？

Have you had design report to engineering in companies you've worked at?

您曾在您工作过的公司中向工程部门做过设计报告吗？

Bob Baxley: Sorry, but that's how it worked at Apple the whole time under Steve.

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：抱歉，但这就是史蒂夫领导下的苹果公司的运作方式。

Design always reported to engineering.

设计总是向工程报告。

Now I think it's structured a little bit differently, but design has always been part of engineering at Apple, so I saw it work quite effectively there obviously.

现在我认为它的结构有点不同，但设计一直是苹果工程的一部分，所以我看到它在那里显然运作得相当有效。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's so interesting.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太有趣了。

Okay, so say just to give someone something very tactical to do on their team, say they don't want to go to this extreme and move the design org under engineering, what's something you've seen work that helps achieve similar outcomes with having engineers integrated early in the design process?

好的，所以说只是为了让某人在他们的团队中做一些非常战术性的事情，比如说他们不想走到这个极端并将设计组织转移到工程下，您看到什么工作可以通过让工程师在设计过程的早期集成来帮助实现类似的结果？

Bob Baxley: Yeah, look, I think you have to find some way that you are able to identify a few people in engineering that I refer to as creative technologists.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：是的，听着，我认为你必须找到某种方法来识别工程领域的一些人，我称之为创意技术专家。

So these are people that can come into what's ultimately kind of a fairly airy-fairy philosophical discussion about what we could do and what's right from a conceptual model perspective.

因此，这些人可以最终进行一场相当空想的哲学讨论，讨论我们可以做什么以及从概念模型的角度来看什么是正确的。

Ultimately, it's sort of a philosophy issue.

归根结底，这是一个哲学问题。

And there's not that many PMs or engineers that can sit in that space and be comfortable with the ambiguity of it all.

没有多少产品经理或工程师能够坐在那个空间中并接受这一切的模糊性。

A PM's likely going to come in and they're going to say, okay, well that was a great one hour.

一位产品经理可能会进来，他们会说，好吧，那是一个很棒的一小时。

What's the next step?

下一步是什么？

And as a designer I'm always like, well, the next step is we're going to have another meeting and we're going to talk again.

作为一名设计师，我总是想，好吧，下一步我们将再举行一次会议，我们将再次交谈。

And the engineers oftentimes when they're starting to hear different ideas, they're already cutting into the code and they're trying to figure out what's hard and what's easy.

工程师通常当他们开始听到不同的想法时，他们已经开始研究代码，并试图找出什么是困难的，什么是容易的。

Bob Baxley: And so I think the trick is at the beginning, can you find a small group of people from the different functions that can sit with the ambiguity of the space and talk through a broad range of ideas to identify the direction we want to go into?

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：所以我认为关键在于一开始，你能否找到一小群来自不同职能部门的人，能够适应空间的模糊性，并通过广泛的想法进行讨论，以确定我们想要进入的方向？

And then once everybody kind of falls in love with the direction, then you can go into the more tactical mindset of, okay, well, when we can ship it and who can we show it to and how are we going to code it and when's it going to go live and all those sorts of things.

然后，一旦每个人都爱上了这个方向，那么你就可以进入更具战术性的思维模式，好吧，好吧，我们什么时候可以发布它，我们可以向谁展示它，我们将如何编码它，它什么时候上线等等。

But the trick is to try to find a group that can sit, again, in the ambiguous maybe space.

但诀窍是尝试找到一个可以再次坐在模糊的空间中的团队。

I do think it's critical to have everybody together at the beginning so they all feel like they're part of it.

我确实认为从一开始就让每个人都聚集在一起至关重要，这样他们都会觉得自己是其中的一部分。

And the worst thing is when you bring something fully baked...

最糟糕的是当你带一些完全烤好的东西时......

Well, the worst thing when you bring something fully baked to anybody for their approval.

好吧，当你把完全烤好的东西拿给任何人以获得他们的认可时，最糟糕的是。

Bob Baxley: We could talk about this when you take a final design to an exec and an exec sees it for the first time in a high resolution state, I'll get to that in a second.

Bob Baxley：当您将最终设计交给执行人员并且执行人员第一次以高分辨率状态看到它时，我们可以讨论这个问题，我稍后会谈到这一点。

But when you go to an engineering team says, "Hey, we've been working in the lab for six months and we have this thing that we love it and we just can't wait for you guys to build it, and here it is," I don't know, mention here.

但是当你去一个工程团队说，“嘿，我们已经在实验室工作了六个月，我们有了这个我们喜欢的东西，我们迫不及待地想让你们建造它，它就在这里，”我不知道，在这里提到。

They're going to be excited about.

他们将会感到兴奋。

They're not order takers.

他们不是订单接受者。

How do you make them part of the process?

如何让它们成为流程的一部分？

And every product of consequence that I worked on, there was some moment when we were showing it to some critical person and you could see that they fell in love with it.

我制作的每一个重要产品，都有一个时刻，当我们向一些挑剔的人展示它时，你可以看到他们爱上了它。

Sometimes they're literally pointing at the comps on the board, sometime you're in a meeting and they're just like, "God, I just love this."

有时他们真的指着板上的比较，有时你在开会，他们就像，“上帝，我就是喜欢这个。”

Bob Baxley: And for me, that was always the critical moment because I knew that design can't bring you this stuff into the world on its own.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：对我来说，这始终是关键时刻，因为我知道设计无法独自将这些东西带入世界。

We can't raise this baby, we need the village, and we need the village to fall in love with the baby.

我们养不起这个孩子，我们需要村庄，我们需要村庄爱上这个孩子。

And so until that happens, you're not really quite sure if this thing's going to take off or not.

因此，直到这种情况发生之前，你并不确定这件事是否会成功。

And so it was always extremely important to me that you had a few key engineers and some product people fall in love with it so they could defend it and embrace it and enhance it and add to it.

因此，对我来说，拥有一些关键工程师和一些产品人员爱上它总是非常重要的，这样他们就可以捍卫它、拥抱它、增强它并添加它。

And you got to bring them along at the very beginning.

你必须从一开始就带上他们。

Lenny Rachitsky: What I'm hearing there is there's a big part of just buy-in and then there's also just obviously more good ideas early are great.

Lenny Rachitsky：我听到的是，很大一部分只是支持，而且早期的好想法显然也很棒。

Bob Baxley: Yeah, sorry.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：是的，抱歉。

Buy-in doesn't feel quite right to me, because buy-in feels like, oh, I've come to agree with you.

认同对我来说感觉不太对劲，因为认同感觉就像是，哦，我已经同意你的观点了。

And that's different from it's a part of me.

这与我的一部分不同。

When I'm talking to teams, the thing I try to tell them is, I walk into the office every day with the idea that everyone that I work with is fundamentally a maker.

当我与团队交谈时，我试图告诉他们的是，我每天走进办公室时都抱着这样的想法：与我一起工作的每个人基本上都是创客。

Everybody in product design, engineering, we've all chosen these careers.

产品设计、工程领域的每个人，我们都选择了这些职业。

Everybody's super smart, everybody's super ambitious.

每个人都超级聪明，每个人都超级雄心勃勃。

Everybody could have done a thousand other things, but they're choosing to spend their precious lifetime and creative energy creating software.

每个人都可以做一千件其他的事情，但他们选择花费宝贵的一生和创造力来创建软件。

Bob Baxley: And so I believe in my heart that they're all fundamentally makers.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：所以我内心相信他们都是创造者。

And the thing that I know about makers is that they all want to make something they're proud of so they can take it home at the end of the day and show it to their parents and say, "Look at what I made at school with my friends today." That's the fundamental thing, and they're all doing it from their own different points of view and their own different incentives and mindsets, but they all at the end of the day want to make something they're proud of.

我对创客的了解是，他们都想做出一些让自己感到自豪的东西，这样他们就可以在一天结束时把它带回家，展示给父母看，并说：“看看我今天和朋友们在学校做了什么。”这是最根本的事情，他们都是从自己不同的角度、不同的动机和心态来做这件事，但最终他们都想做出让自己感到自豪的东西。

And so it's not a matter of getting their buy-in, it's a matter of them being a part of it.

因此，这不是获得他们支持的问题，而是他们参与其中的问题。

I don't know, it's a part of their soul in a really deep, meaningful way.

我不知道，这是他们灵魂的一部分，非常深刻、有意义。

And I'm not sure you can graph that onto somebody after the fact.

我不确定你能在事后将其归咎于某人。

They kind of need to be there at the moment of inception, if you will.

如果你愿意的话，他们需要在项目启动的那一刻就在场。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, that's a really beautiful answer.

Lenny Rachitsky：哇，这是一个非常漂亮的答案。

I imagine for a lot of people hearing this, making every feature and product they build a part of their soul feels like a very high bar if they're building some kind of B2B SaaS software.

我想对于很多人来说，如果他们正在构建某种 B2B SaaS 软件，那么让他们构建的每一个功能和产品成为他们灵魂的一部分感觉就像是一个非常高的门槛。

So I guess just thoughts in just how much you should spend, how much time, how many resources, how deep you go on design for all these things you're building.

所以我想你应该考虑一下你应该花多少钱、多少时间、多少资源、对你正在构建的所有这些东西进行设计的深度。

Say you're building some kind of, I don't know, expense management system or HRS thing, just like, what do you recommend people do with, in terms of just how far to go in design as a lever, as a differentiator maybe?

假设您正在构建某种（我不知道）费用管理系统或 HRS 之类的东西，就像您建议人们做什么，就设计作为杠杆（也许作为差异化因素）的程度而言？

Bob Baxley: Well, inherent in your question is this assumption that design takes more time.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：嗯，你的问题本质上是假设设计需要更多时间。

And so I'm going to kind of reject that premise, because I don't think design takes more time.

所以我会拒绝这个前提，因为我不认为设计需要更多时间。

I think design exists.

我认为设计是存在的。

There is going to be a design.

将会有一个设计。

It's whether it's going to be a good one or not.

而是看它是否会成为一件好事。

And I think there's things that you can do so that you're able to operate it at a quicker pace as design.

我认为你可以做一些事情，以便你能够以更快的设计速度来操作它。

Again, if you get the...

再说一次，如果你得到...

We haven't talked about tenets yet, but we'll get to that in a moment.

我们还没有讨论原则，但我们稍后会讨论。

If you kind of create a shared philosophical understanding of the product and what you're trying to do, you can go really fast because you're not asking the question of what should you do, you're asking the question of, what would this company with what we stand for do for this thing?

如果你对产品和你想要做的事情建立了一种共同的哲学理解，你就可以做得非常快，因为你不是在问你应该做什么，而是在问，这家拥有我们立场的公司会为这件事做什么？

And that's a much easier question that's much smaller.

这是一个更简单、更小的问题。

Bob Baxley: So if you look at the companies that have the largest design teams, they're often the companies that have the most ambiguous cultures and the most unclear design vision.

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：所以如果你看看那些拥有最大设计团队的公司，他们通常是文化最模糊、设计愿景最不清楚的公司。

When you go to companies that really know what they're doing and they're clear that this is who we are, this is what we stand for, the design teams are super small because they're not sitting there trying to do all these permutations with color and typography and ideas.

当你去那些真正知道自己在做什么的公司时，他们很清楚这就是我们是谁，这就是我们所代表的，设计团队非常小，因为他们不会坐在那里尝试用颜色、排版和想法来完成所有这些排列。

They're operating in a really narrow vein, because they know who they are.

他们的运作方式非常狭窄，因为他们知道自己是谁。

It's very much like individuals.

这很像个人。

When you're a teenager or a young adult, you can spend a lot of time trying to figure out what to wear because you haven't really sorted it out yet.

当您是青少年或年轻人时，您可能会花很多时间尝试弄清楚穿什么，因为您还没有真正弄清楚。

But by the time you get to be a little bit older, you've kind of got your personal style, and so dressing in the morning gets to be a lot easier.

但当你长大一点时，你已经有了自己的个人风格，所以早上穿衣服会变得容易多了。

Bob Baxley: Like at Pinterest.

Bob Baxley：就像 Pinterest 一样。

I was at Pinterest at a point when Pinterest wasn't quite sure who it was.

我在 Pinterest 时，Pinterest 不太确定是谁。

And so when we were going to do an onboarding flow, we had to look at a really broad sweep of things, because we were trying to sort it out.

因此，当我们要进行入职流程时，我们必须考虑非常广泛的事情，因为我们试图解决它。

But you had other places that knew what they were about, Apple's the key example there, we weren't trying to figure out what it was about.

但其他地方也知道它们的含义，苹果就是其中的关键例子，我们并没有试图弄清楚它的含义。

We were trying to figure out what was the apple way to do this particular thing, and so that moves a lot faster.

我们试图找出苹果公司做这件事的方式是什么，所以进展得更快。

Bob Baxley: And I agree, look, having your soul at every little checkbox sounds like a high bar and in some ways it is.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：我同意，看，让你的灵魂在每一个小复选框上听起来像是一个很高的门槛，在某些方面确实如此。

I think you need to be able to back up and look at the product, maybe not at every state, but generally every six months or a year, you need to back up and ask yourself, am I proud of this?

我认为你需要能够备份并查看产品，也许不是在每个州，但通常每六个月或一年，你需要备份并问自己，我为此感到自豪吗？

Is this something I am happy to be a part of?

我很高兴能参与其中吗？

Do I believe in this?

我相信这一点吗？

Is it a representative of my best work given the circumstances I was in, which has limitations around time and resources and everything else, is this the best I could do or am I just sort of trying to get through the day I have other goals?

考虑到我所处的环境，时间、资源和其他一切都受到限制，它是否代表了我最好的工作？这是我能做的最好的事情，还是我只是想完成我有其他目标的那一天？

Lenny Rachitsky: So let's actually follow the thread of design tenets and principles.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以让我们真正遵循设计原则和原则。

This is something I've heard about you, that you're a big fan of design tenets versus design principles.

我听说过你，你是设计原则与设计原则的忠实拥护者。

What is the difference?

有什么区别？

Why is this so important?

为什么这如此重要？

Bob Baxley: Yeah, so look, there's whole websites dedicated to design principles, and if you go and you read it, you'll see a lot of principles like simple, clear, beautiful, fast, secure.

Bob Baxley：是的，所以你看，有很多专门讨论设计原则的网站，如果你去阅读它，你会看到很多原则，比如简单、清晰、美观、快速、安全。

You'll hear these words and all these words are great.

你会听到这些话，所有这些话都很棒。

I mean, obviously I have nothing against any of these words, but they're not useful as decision-making tools because nobody would ever argue the opposite.

我的意思是，显然我并不反对这些词中的任何一个，但它们作为决策工具没有用处，因为没有人会提出相反的观点。

Nobody ever sat in a meeting and said, "Oh, forget clear.

从来没有人在开会时说：“哦，忘了说清楚了。

Let's try to make it as confusing as possible." So the idea of clear, it's nice to have out there as, I don't know, sort of a platitude to move towards, but I just don't think it helps you make decisions.

让我们尽量让它变得混乱。”因此，明确的想法是很好的，我不知道，这是一种陈词滥调，但我只是不认为它可以帮助你做出决定。

And so tenets are really decision-making tools and it's sort of like...

所以原则实际上是决策工具，有点像......

A classic one is paper versus plastic.

一个经典的例子是纸与塑料。

It's just too complicated to reconsider that every time you're at the grocery store.

每次去杂货店时都要重新考虑这一点太复杂了。

So you sort of make a rule for yourself and you're just a paper person or a plastic person, you move on from there.

所以你为自己制定了一条规则，你只是一个纸人或塑料人，你从那里继续前进。

Bob Baxley: And so it's sort of that at scale.

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：所以这就是规模化的情况。

And the story comes from when they were starting to work on Keynotes, apparently the guy who was responsible for originating Keynote went to Steve and said, "How should we think about Keynote?" And Steve said, "I want you to keep three things in mind.

这个故事来自当他们开始研究 Keynote 时，显然负责发起 Keynote 的人去找 Steve 说：“我们应该如何考虑 Keynote？”史蒂夫说：“我希望你记住三件事。

One is it should be difficult to make ugly presentations.

一是做出丑陋的演示应该很困难。

Two, you should focus on cinematic quality transitions.

第二，你应该关注电影质量的过渡。

And three, you should optimize for innovation over PowerPoint compatibility." And if you take that last one in particular, if he hadn't kind of said, we're going to go this way instead of that way, that team would've spent the next 10 years gouging each other's eyes out over whether they should try to go for PowerPoint compatibility or innovation.

第三，您应该针对 PowerPoint 兼容性进行创新优化。”如果你特别考虑最后一个，如果他没有说过，我们要走这条路而不是那条路，那么这个团队就会在接下来的 10 年里互相争论是否应该尝试 PowerPoint 兼容性或创新。

And so when I was at ThoughtSpot, I realized pretty early on that I wasn't going to be able to have any sort of command and control over everything that was going to happen in the product.

因此，当我在 ThoughtSpot 时，我很早就意识到我无法对产品中将发生的所有事情进行任何形式的命令和控制。

Bob Baxley: There was too many people involved, too many engineering teams, most of them were in India.

Bob Baxley：涉及的人员太多，工程团队太多，其中大多数都在印度。

I needed to move from a mindset of control to one of choreography.

我需要从控制心态转变为编排心态。

I needed to try to set the culture and set certain design tenets that everyone could internalize and follow and hopefully then make the right decisions in that groove, if you will.

我需要尝试建立文化并设定某些设计原则，让每个人都可以内化和遵循，并希望在这种情况下做出正确的决定，如果你愿意的话。

And so we had three, I think you can't have more than three or four because you need everybody to memorize them.

所以我们有三个，我认为你不能超过三四个，因为你需要每个人都记住它们。

They can't be consulting a handbook.

他们不能查阅手册。

And so, one of them was documentation is a failure state.

因此，其中之一就是文档是一种失败状态。

In enterprise companies, a lot of times people think, "Oh, we'll just put it in the manual.

在企业公司中，很多时候人们会想，“哦，我们就把它写在手册里吧。

It'll be part of the training." And I would constantly be coming back and go, "Stop it.

这将是训练的一部分。”我会不断地回来并说：“停下来。

Nobody wants to learn our software.

没有人愿意学习我们的软件。

Nobody cares.

没人关心。

We are just one more browser tab in a world of browser tabs.

我们只是浏览器选项卡世界中的又一个浏览器选项卡。

We are not this user's complete world.

我们不是这个用户的完整世界。

They do not want to learn this stuff."

他们不想学这些东西。”

Bob Baxley: Documentation's a failure state.

Bob Baxley：文档处于失败状态。

Maybe we can't always avoid it, but we should do everything we can to simplify things so you can figure it out in the context of the product.

也许我们不能总是避免它，但我们应该尽一切努力来简化事情，以便您可以在产品的上下文中找到它。

That's number one.

这是第一。

Number two is every interaction should start simple and the users should have to opt into complexity.

第二，每次交互都应该从简单开始，用户必须选择复杂性。

So our main competitor at the time was Tableau.

所以我们当时的主要竞争对手是Tableau。

Tableau started with complexity.

Tableau 从复杂性开始。

That was their whole value prop is like, "We're a super powerful tool.

这就是他们的整个价值支柱，“我们是一个超级强大的工具。

We can do all sorts of stuff." So when you sit down at Tableau, it feels like you're flying the space shuttle.

我们可以做各种各样的事情。”因此，当您坐在 Tableau 上时，感觉就像在驾驶航天飞机。

And if you're a professional data analyst, that's great.

如果您是专业的数据分析师，那就太好了。

That's the kind of tool you wanted.

这就是您想要的工具。

That wasn't what ThoughtSpot was about.

这不是 ThoughtSpot 的目的。

We were trying to take data analytics into the hands of what I call mere mortals, also known as business users, people who didn't live in breathe this stuff every day.

我们试图将数据分析交给我所说的凡人，也称为商业用户，他们不是每天都呼吸这些东西的人。

Bob Baxley: So our goal with them was they could sit down and it was an approachable piece of software and they could turn on all the bells and whistles and power if they wanted it, so that was the second one.

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：所以我们对他们的目标是他们可以坐下来，这是一个平易近人的软件，如果他们想要的话，他们可以打开所有的附加功能和电源，所以这是第二个。

Start simple, let the users opt into complexity.

从简单开始，让用户选择复杂性。

And the third one was the entire product should look and feel like it came from a single mind.

第三个是整个产品的外观和感觉应该像是来自一个人的想法。

And this was a tenet to try to combat the natural tendency of enterprise companies to really fragment because you have all these different teams working on their incentive to work just on their little piece.

这是一个试图对抗企业真正分裂的自然倾向的原则，因为所有这些不同的团队都在努力只做自己的小事。

And so they think about what's right for them and they don't back up to look at the whole thing.

因此，他们会思考什么对他们来说是正确的，而不会退后一步来审视整个事情。

Bob Baxley: And so we had this tenet, the whole thing should look and feel like it came from a single mind to just try to remind people, how does this fit into the whole system?

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：所以我们有这样的宗旨，整个事情看起来和感觉都应该像是来自一个单一的想法，只是试图提醒人们，这如何融入整个系统？

And sometimes we need to go along and do things that work for the product that don't necessarily work quite the way we might want them to for our feature.

有时我们需要继续做一些对产品有用的事情，但这些事情不一定像我们希望的那样对我们的功能起作用。

And so those tenets were all...

所以这些原则都是......

Again, they were all decision-making tools.

同样，它们都是决策工具。

And when we would have design debates, we could just come back to this, wait, are we actually starting simple and forcing them to opt into complexity or are we doing something else here?

当我们进行设计辩论时，我们可以回到这个问题，等等，我们实际上是从简单开始并迫使他们选择复杂性还是我们在这里做其他事情？

Lenny Rachitsky: So there's kind of this implication in this discussion about tenets is that you need to be very opinionated.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以在关于原则的讨论中，有一种暗示是你需要非常固执己见。

There's a clear here's what's in and here's what's out.

里面的内容和外面的内容一目了然。

Is there anything more along those lines and are there other tenet examples you could share to give people some inspiration as they think about their potential tenets?

还有其他类似的内容吗？您是否可以分享其他原则示例，以便在人们思考潜在原则时为他们提供一些灵感？

Bob Baxley: It's very context specific, so it's a little bit like what are your tenets for parenting?

鲍勃·巴克斯利：这是非常具体的，所以这有点像你的育儿原则是什么？

It's a very specific personal type thing that's germane to your particular context.

这是一个非常具体的个人类型的事情，与您的特定环境密切相关。

So I'm not sure if I have a lot of other examples, and I haven't heard this used by a lot of other companies, so I haven't been able to add a bunch of stuff.

所以我不确定是否还有很多其他例子，而且我没有听说很多其他公司使用过这个，所以我无法添加一堆东西。

We tried to come out with tenets for individual features and we had trouble with that.

我们试图为个别功能提出原则，但遇到了麻烦。

It felt like they operated at sort of the design strategy level.

感觉就像他们在某种设计策略层面上运作。

And I just think that varies dramatically from company to company.

我只是认为不同公司的情况差异很大。

What I would look for is if you're a design leader or a product leader, try to pay attention to what are the debates that we keep having over and over where people kind of seem to be digging in and things sort of seem to be bifurcating into two camps.

我想要的是，如果你是设计领导者或产品领导者，请尝试关注我们不断进行的辩论，人们似乎在深入探讨，而事情似乎分为两个阵营。

Bob Baxley: And then is there something we can do where we just have that debate once and for all, we decide as an organization, we're going left instead of right, and you're absolutely correct.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：然后我们可以做些什么，我们只是一劳永逸地进行辩论，我们作为一个组织决定，我们要向左而不是向右，你是绝对正确的。

You have to be opinionated, but that's how you're going to win.

你必须坚持己见，但这就是你获胜的方式。

There's no unopinionated software that's been successful.

没有哪个软件是成功的、不加任何意见的。

You have to have a point of view.

你必须有自己的观点。

The question is, what's it going to be?

问题是，它会是什么？

So I'd say practically just try to look for places where it seems the team's having the same debate over and over and have it once, get it done, and put it behind you.

所以我想说，实际上只是尝试寻找团队似乎一遍又一遍地进行相同辩论的地方，然后进行一次，完成它，然后将其抛在脑后。

Lenny Rachitsky: And make it a tenet.

Lenny Rachitsky：并将其作为一个宗旨。

And why is the word tenet versus principle so important?

为什么“宗旨”与“原则”这个词如此重要？

Bob Baxley: I don't know.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：我不知道。

I settled on tenet.

我确定了宗旨。

I'd have to go look up the definition.

我得去查一下定义。

I was trying to differentiate it from principles because I think principles are just...

我试图将其与原则区分开来，因为我认为原则只是......

I describe principles as sort of Applehood & Motherpie.

我将原则描述为 Applehood 和 Motherpie。

Again, they're just not something people are going to argue over.

再说一遍，它们并不是人们会争论的事情。

And so I didn't think it was wise to try to co-op that word and change how people think about it so much as I might be more successful just coming up with a different word altogether.

所以我认为尝试合作这个词并改变人们对它的看法并不明智，因为我可能会更成功地想出一个完全不同的词。

Lenny Rachitsky: Makes sense.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：有道理。

This entire episode is brought to you by Stripe.

整集由 Stripe 为您带来。

Every single one of the Forbes top 50 AI companies that has a product in the market today uses Stripe to monetize it.

如今，福布斯 50 强人工智能公司中每一家在市场上拥有产品的公司都使用 Stripe 来货币化。

$1.4 trillion flows through Stripe annually, which is equivalent to over 1% of the entire global GDP.

每年有 1.4 万亿美元流经 Stripe，相当于全球 GDP 的 1% 以上。

And Stripe isn't just a payments platform, they also have a product called Stripe Billing, which powers billing for companies that you may have heard of: OpenAI, Anthropic, Figma, Atlassian, and over 300,000 other companies.

Stripe 不仅仅是一个支付平台，他们还有一个名为 Stripe Billing 的产品，该产品为您可能听说过的公司提供计费服务：OpenAI、Anthropic、Figma、Atlassian 以及超过 300,000 家其他公司。

Lenny Rachitsky: Stripe Billing lets you bill and manage customers no matter your pricing model, from simple recurring billing, to usage based billing, to sales negotiated contracts, collect and retain more revenue, automate revenue management workflows, and accept payments globally.

Lenny Rachitsky：无论采用何种定价模式，Stripe Billing 都可以让您对客户进行计费和管理，从简单的定期计费到基于使用情况的计费，再到销售协商合同，收集和保留更多收入，自动化收入管理工作流程，并在全球范围内接受付款。

Use Stripe to handle all of your payment related needs, including billing, revenue, operations, checkout flows, or simply launching or inventing new business models.

使用 Stripe 处理所有与支付相关的需求，包括计费、收入、运营、结账流程，或者只是启动或发明新的业务模式。

Learn all the ways that Stripe can grow revenue for your business at Stripe.com.

在 Stripe.com 上了解 Stripe 为您的业务增加收入的所有方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

I want to zoom out a little bit and another theme that came up a bunch when I ask people about you and how you think is that you have a really strong feeling that building great product and building successful product is a moral obligation of people that are in tech.

我想缩小一点，当我向人们询问你的情况以及你的想法时，另一个主题出现了很多，你有一种非常强烈的感觉，即构建伟大的产品和构建成功的产品是技术人员的道德义务。

Talk about why you feel that way and what that even means.

谈谈你为什么有这种感觉以及这意味着什么。

Bob Baxley: Well, look, the example I use mostly is if you go to an airport and you look around, you'll see a lot of people using their phone to navigate that system.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：好吧，看，我最常使用的例子是，如果您去机场环顾四周，您会看到很多人使用手机来导航该系统。

They're trying to figure out where their gate is, what time their flight's on, whether or not...

他们试图弄清楚登机口在哪里、航班起飞时间、是否……

Can they pull up their boarding pass, et cetera.

他们能否拿出登机牌等等。

And just watch people, watch their faces, watch the level of confusion and frustration.

只要观察人们，观察他们的表情，观察他们的困惑和沮丧程度。

Some of them are tech superheroes like you and me and most of your listeners, but a lot of them are just mere mortals and they're not living and breathing this stuff all the time.

他们中的一些人是像你我和大多数听众一样的科技超级英雄，但他们中的很多人只是凡人，他们并不是一直生活和呼吸这些东西。

And a lot of times they're super frustrated and then take that and scale it out to their entire day.

很多时候，他们会感到非常沮丧，然后将其扩展到一整天。

And almost everyone living in a modern economy now is going to have hundreds of interactions with the phone or with a computer.

如今，生活在现代经济中的几乎每个人都将与手机或电脑进行数百次互动。

And a lot of those interactions are going to be consequential.

其中许多互动都将产生重大影响。

Bob Baxley: Unfortunately, a lot of those interactions are not going to be great.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：不幸的是，很多互动都不会很好。

They're going to be confusing and frustrating.

他们会感到困惑和沮丧。

When I'm speaking to live audiences, I often ask people, okay, please raise your hand if you've had a frustrating or confusing experience with software in the last month?

当我对现场观众讲话时，我经常问人们，好吧，如果您在上个月使用软件时遇到过令人沮丧或困惑的经历，请举手？

And obviously every hand goes up.

显然每个人都举手了。

Okay, how about so far this week?

好吧，本周到目前为止怎么样？

Most all hands stay up.

大多数人都举手。

I'm like, okay, how about so far today?

我想，好吧，今天到目前为止怎么样？

And most of the hands stay up, and it's often that I speak in the morning, I'm like, okay, everybody's had a frustrating experience with software and it's 10 o'clock in the morning.

大多数人都在举手，我经常在早上讲话，我想，好吧，每个人都在软件方面经历过令人沮丧的经历，而现在是早上 10 点。

That's a problem, people, because each one of those interactions, it takes a little bit of energy away from you and it ramps your frustration just a little bit.

朋友们，这是一个问题，因为每一次互动都会消耗你一点能量，并且会稍微增加你的挫败感。

And the bummer about software, both for the audience and for the creators is that it's an anonymous medium.

对于观众和创作者来说，软件的令人失望之处在于它是一种匿名媒介。

Bob Baxley: Nobody gets to see who's making these things.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：没有人能看到谁在制造这些东西。

You and I together, we might be able to name six designers that have worked on products we care about.

你和我一起，我们也许能够说出六位曾设计过我们关心的产品的设计师的名字。

And the only reason we could do that is because a designer and I know a bunch of them.

我们能做到这一点的唯一原因是因为我和一位设计师认识其中的很多人。

By yourself, I'd be surprised if you could name more than a handful.

就你自己而言，如果你能说出不止几个，我会感到惊讶。

And again, we work in tech.

再说一遍，我们从事科技工作。

So if you think about the billions of people out there that don't work in tech, to them, these products are just these crazy faceless things created by a bunch of people who knows where, and these products are causing them untold amounts of frustration and confusion, and it just takes away from their life quality.

因此，如果你想想数十亿不在科技行业工作的人，对他们来说，这些产品只是一群不知道在哪里的人创造的疯狂的、不露面的东西，这些产品给他们带来了无数的挫败和困惑，只会降低他们的生活质量。

And I think we have an obligation as product people to put that emotional energy back into people's lives.

我认为作为产品人员，我们有义务将这种情感能量重新带回到人们的生活中。

They don't want to try to figure out how to navigate our login screens or go through our onboarding process, they just want to get home and spend time with their families and pet their dogs and have a nice dinner.

他们不想尝试弄清楚如何导航我们的登录屏幕或完成我们的入职流程，他们只想回家与家人共度时光，抚摸他们的狗并享用一顿美味的晚餐。

Bob Baxley: I just think every time we make a demand on the audience, that's a failure on our part.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：我只是认为每次我们对观众提出要求时，这都是我们的失败。

And so I do think it comes...

所以我确实认为它来了......

I cast it in a moral way, and I talk about it that way because I don't think many people working in the industry understand the scale of what they're doing, again, because it's an anonymous field.

我以道德的方式来表达它，我也这样谈论它，因为我认为这个行业的很多工作人员都不了解他们正在做的事情的规模，因为这是一个匿名领域。

We never see anybody on the other side of the glass.

我们从未在玻璃的另一边看到任何人。

Bob Baxley: But I think with this podcast, it'll go out to, I don't know, hundreds of thousands of people.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：但我认为通过这个播客，我不知道它会传播给数十万人。

If you and I saw all the people that will potentially listen to this in one place, we would think to ourselves, oh my goodness, that's like a lot of people.

如果你和我看到所有可能会在一个地方聆听此内容的人，我们会心想，哦，天哪，这就像很多人一样。

And we might think of it differently.

我们可能会有不同的看法。

We might behave differently.

我们的行为可能会有所不同。

My team at Apple, but also my friends that are working at Facebook or Google or wherever, it's very hard to really understand that they're creating something in Figma on their computer that's going to be interacted with by billions of people, thousands and thousands of times.

我在 Apple 的团队，还有我在 Facebook 或 Google 或其他地方工作的朋友，很难真正理解他们在自己的计算机上用 Figma 创建了一些东西，而这些东西将被数十亿人交互，成千上万次。

If you lose sight of that I think just, I don't know, you get sloppy and disrespectful is the wrong word, but I think you just lose sight of how much impact you're having on other people.

如果你忽视了这一点，我认为，我不知道，你会变得草率和不尊重，这是错误的词，但我认为你只是忽视了你对其他人的影响有多大。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, that's really inspiring.

Lenny Rachitsky：哇，这真的很鼓舞人心。

That makes me want to build products and make them awesome.

这让我想要打造产品并让它们变得很棒。

There's so much power to that.

这有很大的力量。

What this makes me think about a little bit is kind of random, but when I see someone click and watch one of my podcast videos on YouTube, I'm like, wow, that's one person that's going to spend their time watching this thing.

这让我想到的有点随机，但当我看到有人点击并观看 YouTube 上的一个播客视频时，我就想，哇，那是一个会花时间观看这个东西的人。

Wow, I really want to make...

哇，我真的很想做...

It gives me more motivation to make these even better and better.

它给了我更多动力让这些变得越来越好。

Bob Baxley: Yeah, look, I think you have to find ways to go...

鲍勃·巴克斯利：是的，听着，我认为你必须找到出路......

You have to find where you go out of your way to see people using software in real time.

您必须找到不遗余力的地方才能看到人们实时使用软件。

I've worked on products that have been used by billions of people.

我开发的产品已被数十亿人使用。

I have friends who have touched billions of people.

我有一些朋友，他们感动了数十亿人。

None of us ever get to see anybody use this stuff in the wild, in their natural state.

我们没有人见过有人在自然状态下在野外使用这些东西。

Maybe we see them in a lab or something like that, but I've never seen anybody just randomly using even Pinterest.

也许我们在实验室或类似的地方看到它们，但我从未见过有人随意使用 Pinterest。

But there's ways that you can go and as a creator, as a maker, you can go and watch people using software in the wild.

但你可以采取多种方式，作为创造者、制造者，你可以去观察人们在野外使用软件。

So just go observe people going through self-checkout at Target, which is the best self-checkout I've ever seen.

所以，只要去观察人们在塔吉特进行自助结账，这是我见过的最好的自助结账。

Go watch that, then go watch it at some other grocery store where it's not as great and really notice what happens with people.

去看一下，然后去其他一些不太好的杂货店看，真正注意人们身上发生的事情。

Bob Baxley: Much to my kids' frustration when their friends are over, I often grab their friend's phone and just sort of flip through it to try to understand how people are organizing their home screens and which apps they use.

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：当我的孩子们的朋友结束时，他们非常沮丧，我经常抓起他们朋友的手机，然后翻阅它，试图了解人们如何组织他们的主屏幕以及他们使用哪些应用程序。

And maybe there's something in there that I haven't seen, I'll ask them what that is and ask them to give me a tour of it.

也许里面有一些我没见过的东西，我会问他们那是什么，并请他们带我参观一下。

I think we're living in a time where people don't do so many usability studies, so a lot of folks get pretty far into their careers without ever having watched mere mortals actually use software.

我认为我们生活在一个人们不做太多可用性研究的时代，所以很多人在职业生涯中都没有见过普通人实际使用软件。

Instead, we're relying on metrics and stuff, which I sort of joked that relying on metrics to understand what's happening at the user level is like looking at raw data from a radio telescope instead of just going out inside and looking at the night sky.

相反，我们依赖于指标和其他东西，我开玩笑说，依靠指标来了解用户级别发生的事情就像从射电望远镜查看原始数据，而不是只是走进去看看夜空。

You got to find a way to watch the audience.

你必须找到一种观看观众的方法。

Bob Baxley: Filmmakers can go to a theater, they can watch people, understand stuff.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：电影制片人可以去剧院，他们可以观察人们，了解事物。

Comedians can go to a comedy club, they can start to develop an intuition about why people laugh.

喜剧演员可以去喜剧俱乐部，他们可以开始培养人们为什么笑的直觉。

None of us have an obvious way to go watch people use software, so we don't really understand how humans process what's happening on the screen.

我们没有人有明显的方法来观察人们使用软件，因此我们并不真正了解人类如何处理屏幕上发生的事情。

And you have to just find ways to do that.

你必须找到方法来做到这一点。

And fortunately, software is everywhere.

幸运的是，软件无处不在。

It's not just desktop or mobile software.

它不仅仅是桌面或移动软件。

I mean, there's ATM machines, there's ticketing kiosks, there's point of sale systems everywhere.

我的意思是，到处都有 ATM 机、售票亭、销售点系统。

I mean, go watch somebody over 70 fumble with a chip card insert or watch somebody try to figure out Apple Pay.

我的意思是，去看看 70 岁以上的人笨手笨脚地插入芯片卡，或者看看有人尝试弄清楚 Apple Pay。

And these are pretty seamless experiences and still there's cognitive friction in all this stuff.

这些都是非常无缝的体验，但所有这些东西仍然存在认知摩擦。

Just go rent a car and notice how long it takes you to figure out what the heck is going on with the dashboard.

只要去租一辆车，注意一下你需要多长时间才能弄清楚仪表板到底发生了什么。

There's lots of opportunities to try to develop that intuition of how people navigate the human computer interaction, and we need to find ways to do that.

有很多机会尝试培养人们如何进行人机交互的直觉，我们需要找到方法来做到这一点。

Lenny Rachitsky: An important element of what you're describing here, which I think maybe people miss, is that you're talking about just any software, not your own product, in order to start building your sense of taste and gut feeling for what-

Lenny Rachitsky：你在这里描述的一个重要元素，我认为人们可能会错过，是你谈论的是任何软件，而不是你自己的产品，以便开始建立你的品味和直觉——

Lenny Rachitsky: Building your sense of taste and gut feeling for what works and doesn't work.

Lenny Rachitsky：培养你的品味和直觉，判断什么有效，什么无效。

And I had a guest on recently, Guillermo Rauch from Vercel, founder of Vercel, and he had a really great phrase of something they do at their company.

最近我有一位嘉宾，来自 Vercel 的 Guillermo Rauch，他是 Vercel 的创始人，他对他们在公司所做的事情做了一段非常精彩的描述。

They have this kind of mission of exposure hours.

他们有这样的曝光时间使命。

Increase your exposure hours to people using our product.

增加您与使用我们产品的人接触的时间。

And then you can extrapolate that to any product.

然后你可以将其推断到任何产品。

Bob Baxley: Yeah, well there's using your product, but I always think when you're watching somebody use your product, you come into it with a psychological bias that makes it hard for you to really see what's going on.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：是的，嗯，使用你的产品，但我总是认为，当你看到有人使用你的产品时，你会带着一种心理偏见进入它，这让你很难真正看到发生了什么。

So there's something about just understanding the audience and how they process information on a screen, not your product.

因此，需要了解的是观众以及他们如何处理屏幕上的信息，而不是你的产品。

Bob Baxley: At one point when I was redesigning a checkout system, we did what I called a reality check, which was we held a traditional usability style exercise in a lab and all that sort of stuff, but we had the subjects come through and go through checkout in other products.

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：当我重新设计结帐系统时，我们进行了所谓的现实检查，即我们在实验室中进行了传统的可用性风格练习以及诸如此类的事情，但我们让受试者通过了其他产品的结帐。

So we watched them go through eBay and Williams-Sonoma and Amazon or something like that.

所以我们看着他们浏览 eBay、威廉姆斯-索诺玛和亚马逊或类似的网站。

And we learned a ton about checkout, about what was important to them, how it turns out ship quote is almost as important as price.

我们学到了很多关于结账的知识，了解什么对他们来说很重要，以及为什么船舶报价几乎与价格一样重要。

Things that if we had been watching them use our own product, I'm not sure we would've picked up on, because we would've been sitting there yelling at them to click on the button.

如果我们一直看着他们使用我们自己的产品，我不确定我们是否会注意到这些事情，因为我们会坐在那里对他们大喊大叫，要求他们点击按钮。

Or we would've had a bias and wanting to see the positive things.

或者我们会有偏见并希望看到积极的事情。

Whereas, if you just watch people that are using adjacent products could be super useful.

然而，如果你只观察人们使用相邻产品可能会非常有用。

Bob Baxley: And again, we work in a medium, software is a medium, and we need to understand our medium in the same way.

Bob Baxley：再说一遍，我们在媒介中工作，软件就是媒介，我们需要以同样的方式理解我们的媒介。

Again, musicians go to concerts, filmmakers go to movies, comedians go to comic clubs.

同样，音乐家去音乐会，电影制片人去看电影，喜剧演员去漫画俱乐部。

When do people like you and I go watch people just use software?

像你我这样的人什么时候会去看人们只使用软件？

Where do we develop that intuition?

我们在哪里培养这种直觉？

And unfortunately I think you have to go out of your way to do it.

不幸的是，我认为你必须不遗余力地做到这一点。

Lenny Rachitsky: Talk about more about this idea that software is a medium.

Lenny Rachitsky：更多地讨论软件是一种媒介的想法。

This is something that came up a bunch also in conversations with folks that have worked with you, that this is something that you believe.

在与与你共事的人的谈话中，这也是你所相信的事情。

Bob Baxley: Yeah, you're so good with the research, Lenny.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：是的，你的研究非常出色，莱尼。

Yeah, look, so I left Pinterest in 2016, sorry, 2016.

是的，你看，我在 2016 年离开了 Pinterest，抱歉，2016 年。

And I didn't have anything lined up so I had some time to myself and I was driving up and down the peninsula here in Silicon Valley meeting with other design leaders and just sort of commiserating with people.

我没有安排任何东西，所以我有一些独处的时间，我开车在硅谷的半岛上来回走动，与其他设计领导者会面，只是与人们表示同情。

And you may remember there was a very consequential presidential election in the United States in 2016 and there was some impression that social media had had a significant impact on that election.

您可能还记得 2016 年美国举行了一次非常重要的总统选举，人们印象中社交媒体对那次选举产生了重大影响。

Bob Baxley: So I was kind of driving around Silicon Valley and I was just sort of wondering what the heck happened.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：当时我开车绕着硅谷转，我只是想知道到底发生了什么。

I moved here in 1990 when the hippie ethos that was really at the core of Silicon Valley, and the hippie ethos was still very visible, it was very much a part of what was interesting to me about the valley when I moved here.

我于 1990 年搬到这里，当时嬉皮士风气确实是硅谷的核心，而且嬉皮风气仍然非常明显，当我搬到这里时，它是我对硅谷感兴趣的一部分。

But 2016 is a long time later and that hippie ethos had gotten pretty quiet.

但 2016 年已经过去了很长一段时间，嬉皮士风气已经变得相当安静。

Bob Baxley: And so I was listening to a podcast about the history of Silicon Valley by a Stanford group.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：所以我正在听斯坦福大学一个小组关于硅谷历史的播客。

The podcast was called Raw Data, and it was season two.

该播客名为“原始数据”，是第二季。

And it starts off with an episode called A Monument to a Dead Child, which is about Stanford University, and it ends with Zuckerberg's testimony in front of Congress.

它以关于斯坦福大学的一集《死去的孩子的纪念碑》开始，以扎克伯格在国会面前的证词结束。

And in the middle of that, they start talking about the counterculture revolution in the late 1960s in San Francisco and elsewhere.

中间，他们开始谈论 20 世纪 60 年代末旧金山和其他地方的反文化革命。

And they quote this book by a guy named Fred Turner, I think it is, the book's called From Counterculture to Cyberculture.

他们引用了一个叫弗雷德·特纳的人写的书，我想是的，这本书的名字叫《从反文化到网络文化》。

And he has this quote that is, "you have to ask why it is personal computing got started in Northern California in the late 1960s when at the time every major tech company in the country was on the East Coast.

他引用了这样一句话：“你必须要问，为什么个人计算在 20 世纪 60 年代末期在北加州兴起，而当时美国的所有主要科技公司都在东海岸。

And the answer is because there was a very small group of people in and around Stanford University that saw software as a new form of media on par with movies, music and books."

答案是因为斯坦福大学及其周边地区有一小部分人将软件视为与电影、音乐和书籍同等的新媒体形式。”

Bob Baxley: And when I heard that, all of a sudden I went, wait a second, boom.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：当我听到这个消息时，我突然就想，等一下，繁荣。

That is why I do this.

这就是我这样做的原因。

I am fundamentally a maker.

我本质上是一个创客。

In high school I was a photographer, in college I was going to be a filmmaker, after college I went to music school.

高中时我是一名摄影师，大学时我想成为一名电影制片人，大学毕业后我去了音乐学校。

After music school I started a graphic design studio.

音乐学校毕业后，我创办了一家平面设计工作室。

I am a maker.

我是一个创客。

And I realized looking back, I was just hunting for my medium.

回想起来，我意识到我只是在寻找我的媒介。

And it took me until I was 27 to find software as my medium.

直到 27 岁，我才找到软件作为我的媒介。

It's like, oh, I'm a maker that designs software.

就像，哦，我是一个设计软件的创客。

Bob Baxley: And then when I heard that software as a medium, that whole concept of what I'd been doing with my life and who I was about, it just sort of all came together really quickly.

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：然后当我听到软件作为一种媒介，我一生所做的事情以及我是谁的整个概念时，所有这些都很快就融合在一起了。

And I realized, oh, I am into software because software makes me feel a certain way when it's working well.

我意识到，哦，我喜欢软件，因为软件运行良好时会让我有某种感觉。

And what I find so troubling now is that a lot of time it's not working that way.

我现在发现最令人不安的是，很多时候它并不是这样运作的。

Bob Baxley: And I remember the first time I saw a computer, probably a lot of people on listening to the show can remember maybe the first time they saw a desktop computer, probably the first time they saw a pension zoom on a phone.

Bob Baxley：我记得我第一次看到电脑时，可能很多听节目的人都记得他们第一次看到台式电脑，可能是他们第一次在手机上看到养老金变焦。

You remember all that stuff.

你记得所有这些事情。

It was just freaking magic man.

这简直就是一个该死的魔法师。

It was the future.

这是未来。

It was so cool, and it just felt like the most amazing aurora borealis, or sunrise, or whatever.

太酷了，感觉就像最令人惊叹的北极光，或者日出，或者其他什么。

There was a sense of awe and wonder that filled me and probably a lot of listeners, that's probably the thing that motivated you to be in the field.

我和很多听众都充满了敬畏和惊奇的感觉，这可能是激励你进入这个领域的原因。

Bob Baxley: And so I realized software is a medium because there's an emotional component to it.

Bob Baxley：所以我意识到软件是一种媒介，因为它有情感成分。

Like a hammer and saw, they're not really pulling out an emotion for me.

就像锤子和锯子一样，它们并没有真正为我带来情感。

Maybe there's some, if you're a carpenter, but I don't naturally have an emotion with kitchen tools or things that I think even more sophisticated tools like calculators and pulleys, I still don't have an emotional response to them.

也许有一些，如果你是木匠，但我天生对厨房工具或其他东西没有感情，我认为即使是更复杂的工具，如计算器和滑轮，我仍然对它们没有感情反应。

But every piece of software I have an emotional response to.

但我对每一款软件都会产生情感反应。

I either feel confused or empowered.

我要么感到困惑，要么感到充满力量。

I feel like my world's gotten bigger or my world's gotten smaller.

我感觉我的世界变得更大或者我的世界变得更小。

They all have an emotional component.

他们都有情感成分。

And I think once you realize and accept that, then you can say, oh, there is an emotional component to what we're doing with this product.

我认为一旦你意识到并接受了这一点，你就可以说，哦，我们对这个产品所做的事情有一个情感成分。

I could just leave that to chance, which is what most people do, or I could try to be conscious of it and we could try to bring that into our conception of what the product's about and try to be purposeful in the emotion we're trying to elicit from the user.

我可以把它留给机会，这就是大多数人所做的，或者我可以尝试意识到这一点，我们可以尝试将其带入我们对产品的概念中，并尝试有目的地激发我们试图从用户那里引发的情感。

And I think that's where design and particularly visual design can have a huge impact.

我认为这就是设计，尤其是视觉设计可以产生巨大影响的地方。

Bob Baxley: So again, in many conversations that I'd have in design reviews, some executive would go, "I don't know, ultimately this just kind of comes down to a matter of opinion." And I was always like, "no, it does not.

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：所以，在我在设计评审中进行的许多对话中，一些高管会说，“我不知道，最终这只是一个意见问题。”我总是说，“不，事实并非如此。

Whether we choose blue or red is going to elicit a certain emotional response from the user.

无论我们选择蓝色还是红色都会引起用户的某种情绪反应。

What is it we want them to feel?

我们希望他们感受到什么？

And then let's make sure that we design something visually that evokes that emotion."

然后让我们确保我们设计的东西能够在视觉上唤起这种情感。”

Bob Baxley: So again, I think once you really get your head around the fact that there are people on the other side of the glass, real live human beings having emotional moments with the thing that you're putting in their hand and that they're focusing their attention on.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：所以，我想，一旦你真正明白了这样一个事实，那就是玻璃的另一边有人，是活生生的人，他们对你放在他们手中的东西产生情感时刻，并且他们将注意力集中在这个东西上。

You are in those moments.

你正处于那些时刻。

And are you going to own it and show up and be the person you want to be in those moments or not?

你是否会拥有它并出现并成为那些时刻你想成为的人？

Bob Baxley: A few months ago, I guess a little longer ago, I was talking to the team at Toast who makes the handheld point of sale stuff that they use in restaurants.

Bob Baxley：几个月前，我想是很久以前，我正在与 Toast 的团队交谈，他们生产在餐厅使用的手持式销售点产品。

And the thing I was trying to tell them, is whether or not you see it, tonight, you're going to be at dinner with a few 100 000 people all across the country.

我想告诉他们的是，无论你是否看到，今晚你都会与全国各地的十万人共进晚餐。

And if we take just one example, you're going to be at a very nice diner with a grandmother and her two teenage sons in Ohio, and the check's going to come and the waiter, the waitress is going to hand over the device to that grandmother, because she wants to pick up the bill.

如果我们只举一个例子，你将在俄亥俄州与一位祖母和她两个十几岁的儿子一起在一家非常好的餐馆里，支票会来，服务员会把设备交给那位祖母，因为她想结账。

And you have the opportunity to either make her look like a superhero, because she knows what she's doing, or to make her look like a fool and one of her teenage grandsons is going to grab the device and do it for her.

你有机会让她看起来像一个超级英雄，因为她知道自己在做什么，或者让她看起来像个傻瓜，而她十几岁的孙子会抓住这个设备并为她做这件事。

Bob Baxley: You're at the dinner table, what are you going to do for grandma?

鲍勃·巴克斯利：你在餐桌上，你要为奶奶做什么？

You going to show up as well as you can, or are you going to just let this whole thing fall apart, because you didn't think hard enough about grandma?

你会尽可能地表现出来，还是会因为你没有为奶奶想得足够多而让这整件事分崩离析？

And that's true for Toast, that's true for every product any of us are working on all the time.

对于 Toast 来说是这样，对于我们一直在开发的每一个产品来说也是如此。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is so interesting and fascinating and inspiring.

Lenny Rachitsky：这非常有趣、令人着迷且鼓舞人心。

I was going to ask how you use this insight, that software is kind of the most powerful medium media more than even than TV and movies, and you shared it, which I think is really important.

我想问你如何利用这种洞察力，该软件是一种最强大的媒体，甚至比电视和电影还要强大，你分享了它，我认为这非常重要。

So just to kind of double-down on this, is the advice here is think about the emotion you want the user of your software to have as you're starting the design process, not just what do you want them to do, how fast do you want them to get to this flow, it's what's the emotion you want them to have?

因此，为了强调这一点，这里的建议是，在开始设计过程时，考虑一下您希望软件用户拥有的情感，而不仅仅是您希望他们做什么，您希望他们以多快的速度进入此流程，而是您希望他们拥有什么情感？

Bob Baxley: Yeah.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：是的。

I often don't think about what I want them to do.

我常常不会考虑我想让他们做什么。

I just think that's sort of a selfish way to think about it.

我只是认为这是一种自私的思考方式。

They have something they want to do.

他们有想做的事。

I'm trying to help them.

我正在努力帮助他们。

I just don't ever approach these things of the user's something for me to exploit and take advantage of and manipulate.

我只是从来不接触用户的这些东西让我去利用、利用和操纵。

I know there's people that do approach it that way, which I think is a little unfortunate.

我知道有人确实这样做，我认为这有点不幸。

But as a designer, I guess I have my own set of values and my own kind of compass on these things that's pushed me in a certain way of thinking about it.

但作为一名设计师，我想我对这些事情有自己的一套价值观和自己的指南针，这促使我以某种方式思考它。

And so I'm kind of constantly asking what's the right thing for the user?

所以我不断地问什么对用户来说是正确的？

Bob Baxley: And I believe in my heart that if we prioritize that wonderful things will happen for all the metrics, including the money metrics that matter.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：我内心相信，如果我们优先考虑所有指标，包括重要的金钱指标，就会发生美妙的事情。

I've never seen a product be successful that used metrics as a driver for what they were doing.

我从未见过使用指标作为其所做工作的驱动力的成功产品。

I've seen a lot of companies be really successfully seeing metrics as a consequence and a way to evaluate the quality of their decisions, and then using those to triangulate and make better decisions moving forward.

我见过很多公司真正成功地将指标视为结果和评估其决策质量的方法，然后利用这些指标进行三角测量并做出更好的决策。

So they're kind of a very useful feedback mechanism.

所以它们是一种非常有用的反馈机制。

But I think there's definitely a risk to confusing, doing something because it's a driver versus something as a consequence.

但我认为肯定存在混淆的风险，做某事是因为它是驱动因素，而不是结果。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's a few more questions I would ask, but I want to come back to something that I asked earlier, that I think is on the minds of a lot of say founders and product managers listening to this.

Lenny Rachitsky：我还有几个问题要问，但我想回到我之前问过的问题，我认为很多创始人和产品经理都在想这个问题。

I'm just like, okay, this all is sounds really great.

我只是想，好吧，这一切听起来真的很棒。

I would love to make these experiences so great.

我很想让这些经历变得如此美好。

It's going to take us a lot of time to do this really, really well.

我们需要花费很多时间才能把这件事做得非常非常好。

You said that it doesn't have to.

你说没必要。

What's a tactical tip or two that you can suggest to a founder or product manager to help them contain the design process while also achieving these outcomes that you're describing?

您可以向创始人或产品经理建议一两个什么战术技巧，以帮助他们控制设计流程，同时实现您所描述的这些结果？

Bob Baxley: Well, I think if you can give...

鲍勃·巴克斯利：嗯，我想如果你能给......

Maybe one way to think about it is like a big giant AI prompt.

也许一种思考方式就像是一个巨大的人工智能提示。

The more context you can give it, the more specificity you can give it, the more this is what I'm about and what we're trying to get to, the more the designer's going to be able to figure out which swim lane they're supposed to be in to produce something.

你能给它的背景越多，你能给它的具体性就越多，这就越是我的目的和我们想要达到的目标，设计师就越能够弄清楚他们应该在哪条泳道上生产一些东西。

Bob Baxley: So I think if you're going into it feeling like the design process is going to take a lot of time, it's because you haven't been clear in your creative brief, so to speak, which often means you're not really clear in your own head.

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：所以我认为，如果你在进入设计过程时感觉设计过程会花费很多时间，那是因为你的创意简介不够清晰，可以这么说，这通常意味着你自己的头脑并不清晰。

And I think...

我认为...

I have worked with a lot of founders, and we could identify a bunch of big companies, who I think got started that weren't clear in their own head.

我曾与很多创始人合作过，我们可以识别出一些大公司，我认为他们在起步时并不清楚。

I don't want to...

我不想...

Yahoo was an amazing company, but if we just look at Yahoo for a second, I worked there, it was never clear to me what the founding vision of Yahoo was.

雅虎是一家了不起的公司，但如果我们只看一下雅虎，我在那里工作，我从来都不清楚雅虎的创始愿景是什么。

Bob Baxley: And I talk a lot about vision statements and we could say the vision statement of Google is organizing all the world's information.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：我谈了很多关于愿景声明的内容，我们可以说谷歌的愿景声明正在组织世界上所有的信息。

That's a great vision.

这是一个伟大的愿景。

They'll never achieve that.

他们永远无法实现这一目标。

That's something that's always over the horizon.

这总是超出地平线的事情。

And it's been a very useful organizing principle for their acquisitions and how the company grows.

对于他们的收购和公司的发展来说，这是一个非常有用的组织原则。

Bob Baxley: Amazon to be the Earth's most customer-centric company.

Bob Baxley：亚马逊将成为地球上最以客户为中心的公司。

Okay, great.

好的，太好了。

That's a vision, they will never get there.

这是一个愿景，他们永远无法实现。

It tells you how they're going to expand.

它告诉您他们将如何扩展。

Apple doesn't have an explicit vision, but I might describe it as personal computing can have a transformative effect on the lives of individuals.

苹果没有明确的愿景，但我可能会将其描述为个人计算可以对个人的生活产生变革性的影响。

And I think that kind of focuses a lot of what they're trying to do.

我认为这集中了他们正在尝试做的很多事情。

Bob Baxley: Disneyland, still the best vision statement of all time, which is the happiest place on earth.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：迪士尼乐园仍然是有史以来最好的愿景宣言，它是地球上最快乐的地方。

So once you tell an employee this is supposed to be the happiest place on earth, then you're signaling all sorts of things about how they need to pick up the trash and how they need to show up on time and how they need to wear their uniform.

因此，一旦你告诉员工这里应该是地球上最快乐的地方，那么你就在向他们发出各种信号，告诉他们需要如何捡垃圾、如何准时上班以及如何穿制服。

You're just signaling a whole bunch of stuff.

你只是在发出一大堆信号。

Bob Baxley: So when I talked to founders, a lot of times they just don't have that clarity of what's the vision of the company.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：所以当我与创始人交谈时，很多时候他们并不清楚公司的愿景是什么。

And to go back to Yahoo for a second, I never heard of vision.

回到雅虎，我从来没有听说过愿景。

And so I'm not really sure what they were ever about.

所以我不太确定他们到底在说什么。

They kind of stumbled into the directory and then they added a bunch of stuff around the edges, but it never seemed to make a lot of sense.

他们无意中进入了目录，然后在边缘添加了一堆东西，但这似乎没有多大意义。

And so I think people operating inside Yahoo, it ended up being inefficient, because they were having to deal with all that ambiguity.

所以我认为雅虎内部的运营人员最终效率低下，因为他们不得不处理所有这些模糊性。

Bob Baxley: So I think that that can also be a pretty big risk for founders.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：所以我认为这对于创始人来说也是一个相当大的风险。

They end up caught up with a product idea, and they think that the company is the product, the company is not the product.

他们最终陷入了产品理念，他们认为公司就是产品，公司不是产品。

The product is the product and the company's bigger than the product.

产品就是产品，公司比产品更大。

And you need to have some vision that speaks beyond just this particular thing.

你需要有一些远见，超越这件特定的事情。

Bob Baxley: I think Slack, honestly, both Slack and Pinterest I think are examples of products that became companies, but neither one of those places really knew what to do next, because they didn't have a bigger vision of the change they were trying to see in the world.

Bob Baxley：我认为 Slack，老实说，我认为 Slack 和 Pinterest 都是成为公司的产品的例子，但这些地方都没有真正知道下一步该做什么，因为他们对他们试图在世界上看到的变化没有更大的愿景。

So back to you, you were asking a very pragmatic question.

回到你身上，你问了一个非常务实的问题。

I think you need to work on your prompt before you go to your designers and try to give them as much clarity about what you want to produce as possible.

我认为在你去找设计师之前，你需要先研究一下你的提示，并尽量让他们清楚地了解你想要生产什么。

And I think if you leave it open as to the emotional response you want users to have, you're inviting a lot of ambiguity, which is going to invite a lot of inefficiency.

我认为，如果你对你希望用户做出的情感反应保持开放态度，你就会引发很多歧义，这会导致很多低效率。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that answer.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个答案。

And it's so interesting that AI can help us work better together as humans, because when you find that the AI is not achieving the outcome you want as effectively as you want, that's a lesson.

有趣的是，人工智能可以帮助我们作为人类更好地合作，因为当你发现人工智能没有像你想要的那样有效地实现你想要的结果时，这就是一个教训。

This also translates the working with humans, make the prompt more specific, add more context in life, not just when you're talking to AI.

这也转化了与人类的合作，使提示更加具体，在生活中添加更多背景，而不仅仅是当你与人工智能交谈时。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

That's so interesting.

那太有趣了。

So the advice here is, if you're finding design is taking too long or you want to just level up your success with your design team, give more context, spend more time on the brief, on what you're actually trying to achieve.

因此，这里的建议是，如果您发现设计花费的时间太长，或者您只想提高设计团队的成功水平，请提供更多背景信息，花更多时间在简报上，花在您实际想要实现的目标上。

And make sure there's a clear vision or mission that everyone can row towards.

并确保每个人都有一个清晰的愿景或使命，可以为之奋斗。

Bob Baxley: Yeah.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：是的。

Look, design is a problem solving methodology.

看，设计是一种解决问题的方法论。

So the more variables you can remove before they go into the process, the more efficient it's going to be.

因此，在进入流程之前删除的变量越多，流程的效率就越高。

And if you give designers a lot of ambiguity, they're going to spend a lot of time spinning around, and honestly, that's your fault as the client.

如果你给设计师太多的模糊性，他们就会花很多时间来思考，老实说，这是你作为客户的错。

Bob Baxley: As a design leader, I think one of my main challenges is frankly trying to make the PMs better clients, helping them get more specific.

Bob Baxley：作为一名设计领导者，我认为我的主要挑战之一是坦率地努力让产品经理成为更好的客户，帮助他们变得更具体。

It's very common for a design team to get extremely ambiguous asks from a product team.

设计团队从产品团队那里得到极其模糊的要求是很常见的。

And the problem for designers, they have to take all that ambiguity and they've got to wring it all out.

对于设计师来说，问题是他们必须接受所有这些模糊性，并且必须将其全部解决。

So when they give it to engineering, engineering knows exactly what to code, because computers don't tolerate ambiguity.

因此，当他们将其交给工程人员时，工程人员确切地知道要编码什么，因为计算机不能容忍歧义。

Engineers need to know what the thing's going to be.

工程师需要知道事情将会是什么。

And so design gets stuck with a really ambiguous input, but they have to have a highly specific output and then often timeboxed to do that.

因此，设计陷入了非常模糊的输入中，但他们必须有一个高度具体的输出，然后通常会在时间范围内做到这一点。

And it's just not a recipe for success.

这并不是成功的秘诀。

Bob Baxley: So you're much better off either kind of compressing the PRD experience and bringing the designers into that, kind of co-creating with product and design really rapidly.

Bob Baxley：因此，压缩 PRD 体验并将设计师带入其中，与产品和设计快速共同创造，这两种方式都会更好。

But you need to...

但你需要...

You could think of it in some ways as designers are going to draw the storyboards, and if you don't give them a great script, they're going to have a very hard time.

你可以从某些方面来考虑，因为设计师要绘制故事板，如果你不给他们一个很棒的剧本，他们将会遇到非常困难的事情。

And then you can't give the shooting crew ambiguous storyboards or you're just going to waste untold amounts of money on set.

然后你不能给拍摄人员模棱两可的故事板，否则你只会在片场浪费无数的钱。

Bob Baxley: So if you think about those three steps from script to storyboard to production, it's all about getting rid of ambiguity.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：所以如果你考虑一下从剧本到故事板再到制作的这三个步骤，那就是消除歧义。

And so the more ambiguity that can be removed upstream, the faster design's going to go.

因此，上游可以消除的歧义越多，设计就会进行得越快。

Lenny Rachitsky: This begs the question then, you don't want to give designers here exactly.

Lenny Rachitsky：这就引出了一个问题，你不想在这里给设计师确切的位置。

Here's the thing we're designing, make it really great and pretty.

这就是我们正在设计的东西，让它变得非常伟大和漂亮。

There's always this balance of just give designers space to think and be creative and explore.

始终保持这种平衡，即为设计师提供思考、创造力和探索的空间。

Advice there of just how to navigate that.

那里有关于如何导航的建议。

Bob Baxley: Well, if you go back to my example of the script and storyboard, scripts don't contain pictures, there's still a lot of opportunity to think differently and to come up with original things and to have a lot of creative input in the storyboarding process.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：嗯，如果你回到我的脚本和故事板的例子，脚本不包含图片，仍然有很多机会以不同的方式思考，提出原创的东西，并在故事板过程中提供大量的创造性输入。

So the script is living mostly in words, which is largely how PMs function.

因此，脚本主要以文字形式存在，这很大程度上就是产品经理的运作方式。

Bob Baxley: The thing that I will say, to keep in mind for PMs, there's always a tendency on PMs to want to draw something and then try to give a sketch to a designer.

Bob Baxley：我要说的是，PM 需要记住，PM 总是倾向于想要画一些东西，然后尝试向设计师提供草图。

And I would caution them against that.

我会警告他们不要这样做。

Sometimes they have to draw themselves so they can think it out.

有时他们必须画自己，这样他们才能想清楚。

But if a PM came to me with something that was drawn and kind of fully baked, my response was like, thanks for giving me that.

但如果一位产品经理带着画好的、完全烘焙好的东西来找我，我的反应就是，谢谢你给我这个。

Now I know exactly what we're not going to do.

现在我清楚地知道我们不会做什么。

Because as a point of pride, there's no way I'm going to go execute that exact thing.

因为作为一种骄傲，我不可能去执行那件事。

Bob Baxley: So you're right, PMs have to give you the space to operate.

Bob Baxley：所以你是对的，PM 必须给你操作的空间。

And I think a lot of what they're trying to achieve could be done in more informal ways, conversationally and whiteboards, things like that.

我认为他们想要实现的很多目标可以通过更非正式的方式来完成，例如对话和白板等。

But yet you need to narrow the problem for the designers, they need constraints.

但你需要为设计师缩小问题范围，他们需要约束。

They don't need a tiny little box, but they need constraints.

他们不需要一个小盒子，但他们需要约束。

Think in terms of, you don't give them an airport tarmac and you don't even give them a football field.

想想看，你不给他们机场停机坪，甚至不给他们一个足球场。

You give them something more like a basketball court, a sort of scale at which they can do their design thing.

你给他们的东西更像是一个篮球场，一种他们可以进行设计的规模。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to talk about basketball later, but not yet.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我想稍后再谈谈篮球，但现在还不行。

You've shared a lot of counterintuitive lessons on building product, designing, building teams, leadership.

您分享了许多关于构建产品、设计、构建团队和领导力的违反直觉的课程。

Is there another very counterintuitive lesson you've learned about building products, hiring leading teams that goes against common startup wisdom?

关于构建产品、招聘领导团队，您是否还学到了另一个非常违反直觉的教训，这与常见的创业智慧相悖？

Bob Baxley: The thing I would say is that you should wait as long as possible to draw a picture.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：我想说的是，你应该等待尽可能长的时间来画一幅画。

I think that pushes against all the gen AI tools that help you create prototypes.

我认为这对所有帮助你创建原型的一代人工智能工具都是不利的。

And there's obviously a lot of excitement around that.

显然，这令人兴奋不已。

I can just give a prompt and the AI, they're going to crank out of UI for me.

我只需给出提示，人工智能就会为我设计出用户界面。

Bob Baxley: So I don't think I'm using the term right, but I had this idea from art that I call the primal mark, and that's the first mark that you make on the canvas.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：所以我认为我使用的这个词不正确，但我从艺术中得到了这个想法，我称之为原始标记，这是你在画布上制作的第一个标记。

And once you make that mark on the canvas, everything you do after that is in response to that mark.

一旦你在画布上做了这个标记，之后你所做的一切都是对这个标记的回应。

It sort of sets your baseline.

它有点设定你的基线。

And so for me, I always felt that as soon as we drew a picture that looked even remotely real, everybody gravitated towards that and said, oh, that's the thing.

所以对我来说，我总是觉得，一旦我们画了一张看起来甚至有点真实的图画，每个人都会被它所吸引，并说，哦，就是这样。

And people were so uncomfortable with ambiguity that they can't really deal with the tension of, well, that might not be the thing.

人们对模棱两可感到非常不舒服，以至于他们无法真正应对紧张感，好吧，这可能不是问题所在。

Bob Baxley: And so as soon as you draw a picture that looks even slightly realistic, much less something that comes out of one of these gen AI tools, everybody kind of goes, oh, that's the thing.

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：所以，一旦你画出一张看起来有点现实的图画，更不用说从这些一代人工智能工具中得出的东西，每个人都会说，哦，就是这样。

You just keep doubling down on that thing.

你只要继续加倍努力就可以了。

And what's happened is you've taken the possibilities from this big broad thing down to this tiny little thing from an AI system that's trained on existing solutions and existing ideas and is maybe not even thinking about it the right way, because all you've really given it is your first-order of thinking.

所发生的情况是，你已经将人工智能系统中的可能性从这个大而广泛的事情降到了这个微小的小事情，该系统接受了现有解决方案和现有想法的训练，甚至可能没有以正确的方式思考它，因为你真正给予它的只是你的第一顺序思维。

Bob Baxley: I think there's a way you can stay in these things conceptually and conversationally, where you can get to your second, third, fourth idea.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：我认为有一种方法可以让你在概念上和对话上停留在这些事情上，这样你就可以得到你的第二个、第三个、第四个想法。

And that's where stuff gets really interesting.

这就是事情变得非常有趣的地方。

And again, I don't think that has to take a lot of time.

再说一次，我认为这不需要花费很多时间。

That can be over the course of a single meeting, you could get to a second, third, fourth idea.

这可以在一次会议的过程中，你可以得到第二个、第三个、第四个想法。

You just have to be willing to not jump at the first thing that looks like a possibility.

你只需要愿意在第一件看起来有可能发生的事情上不跳槽。

You get that possibility, you go, okay, well that's interesting, let's table that.

你得到了这种可能性，你就走了，好吧，这很有趣，让我们把它放在桌子上。

What else have we got?

我们还有什么？

Bob Baxley: There's one story that kind of related that's useful.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：有一个相关的故事很有用。

In one of my previous jobs, I was responsible for the public website.

在我之前的一份工作中，我负责公共网站。

I remember coming across one of the product managers one day and she's like, "Hey, this link on the home page, we have to make it blue." I was like, "Well, we don't use blue links anywhere." And she said, "Yeah, yeah, but we just have to make it blue." I was like, "Well, we're not making it blue." And a couple of days go by and I saw the home page and the link had been made blue, because she had got around me and she'd gone to engineering and just made it blue.

我记得有一天遇到一位产品经理，她说，“嘿，主页上的这个链接，我们必须把它变成蓝色。”我当时想，“好吧，我们不在任何地方使用蓝色链接。”她说：“是的，是的，但我们只需要把它变成蓝色就可以了。”我当时想，“好吧，我们不会把它变成蓝色的。”几天过去了，我看到主页和链接已经变成了蓝色，因为她绕过了我，她去了工程部门，就把它变成了蓝色。

Bob Baxley: And I saw her in the hallway again.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：我又在走廊里看到了她。

I was like, "What the hell's up with that?" And she goes, "Well, people couldn't see it." And I'm like, "Oh, they couldn't see it, so it wasn't prominent enough, right?" She's like, "Yeah, it wasn't prominent enough." I'm like, "Well, great.

我当时想，“这到底是怎么回事？”她说：“好吧，人们看不到它。”我想，“哦，他们看不到它，所以它不够突出，对吧？”她说：“是的，它还不够突出。”我想，“嗯，太好了。

There's a 100 different things we could do to make it more prominent, one of which is making it blue, which is the thing that came to you first because you're not a designer, it's naturally...

我们可以做 100 种不同的事情来让它更加突出，其中之一就是把它变成蓝色，这是你首先想到的事情，因为你不是设计师，这很自然......

Because it's the most obvious thing, but it actually doesn't fit in with these larger things we're trying to do."

因为这是最明显的事情，但它实际上并不适合我们正在尝试做的这些更大的事情。”

Bob Baxley: So I've often...

鲍勃·巴克斯利：所以我经常……

I try to encourage the product managers to what's the problem with the thing?

我尝试鼓励产品经理了解这件事的问题是什么？

And then let us solve it.

然后让我们解决它。

Don't jump to it and tell us...

不要跳到它并告诉我们......

Don't tell us this is just exactly what we're supposed to do.

不要告诉我们这正是我们应该做的。

And again, I do the same thing on the roadmap.

我再次在路线图上做了同样的事情。

You decide the roadmap, tell us what we're supposed to do, I will ask you about it, and I may push back and we may have some back and forth, but that's your responsibility.

你决定路线图，告诉我们应该做什么，我会问你，我可能会推迟，我们可能会来来回回，但这是你的责任。

I'm going to trust that you are trained and you know what you're doing and you're going to make the right call.

我相信你受过训练，知道自己在做什么，并且会做出正确的决定。

And I just want you to give me the same level of respect.

我只是希望你给予我同样程度的尊重。

Lenny Rachitsky: This advice about not drawing quickly and not making that primal mark, which I love that term, is, I'm curious your take on AI prototyping tools these days.

Lenny Rachitsky：关于不要快速绘画和不要留下原始标记（我喜欢这个词）的建议是，我很好奇你现在对人工智能原型工具的看法。

Because that's the extreme version of that.

因为那是极端版本。

Not only are you just creating a sketch, it's like, oh, it's working, here it is.

您不仅创建了一个草图，而且就像，哦，它正在工作，就在这里。

Here's what it looks like.

它看起来是这样的。

Thoughts on that, do you discourage people from doing that, PMs especially?

对此，您是否不鼓励人们这样做，尤其是产品经理？

Bob Baxley: Well, I think it's a production tool.

Bob Baxley：嗯，我认为这是一种生产工具。

Once you know what you want and you can give it a really robust prompt, then...

一旦你知道你想要什么并且你可以给它一个非常有力的提示，那么......

I haven't played with it a lot myself, because I'm not in an operational role right now, but presumably it's really useful at cranking out that actionable prototype which you can click and experience.

我自己并没有经常使用它，因为我现在不担任操作角色，但想必它对于制作出您可以单击并体验的可操作原型非常有用。

Bob Baxley: And I've said for a long time that an interactive idea needs to be expressed interactively, so we're not talking with our hands and we can really understand what's going to happen.

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：我已经说过很长一段时间了，交互式想法需要以交互方式表达，所以我们不是用手说话，我们可以真正理解将要发生的事情。

So when the idea is ready to be expressed, I think those tools are probably fantastic.

因此，当想法准备好表达时，我认为这些工具可能非常棒。

But ideas start off pretty fragile, and the best ideas start off really fragile.

但想法一开始就非常脆弱，而最好的想法一开始也非常脆弱。

And I think when you push them to develop too quickly and you put them out in the world and expect them to be able to stand up to critique too early, you're just going to squash them.

我认为，当你推动他们发展得太快，并将他们推向世界并期望他们能够过早地经受住批评时，你只会压制他们。

Bob Baxley: I often think about them like the little plant in the Pixar movie, Wall-E, you've got to give that little guy a little space, a little time, some water and some nourishment, and you can't really just suddenly put him out in the wind and think he's going to make it.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：我经常把它们想象成皮克斯电影《机器人总动员》中的小植物，你必须给那个小家伙一点空间、一点时间、一些水和一些营养，你不能真的突然把他放在风中，然后认为他会成功。

And so I think a lot of...

所以我认为很多...

There's a lot of very fragile, interesting, quiet ideas that I think you need to give some space.

有很多非常脆弱、有趣、安静的想法，我认为你需要给它们一些空间。

And when you jump to the expression of them, I think you're putting them at risk.

当你跳到他们的表达时，我认为你正在将他们置于危险之中。

Bob Baxley: I'll also say that, everybody, when they look at a prototype, what they're focusing on is the visual and textual expression.

Bob Baxley：我还要说的是，每个人，当他们看原型时，他们关注的是视觉和文字表达。

And so as soon as you produce something in high resolution the feedback you're going to get is going to be about colors and shapes and these presentation layer things, which are very loosely related to usability and value.

因此，一旦你制作出高分辨率的东西，你将得到的反馈将是关于颜色和形状以及这些表示层的东西，这些东西与可用性和价值非常松散地相关。

It's like focusing on the special effects of a movie that has a really bad story.

这就像专注于一部故事非常糟糕的电影的特效一样。

Bob Baxley: And so at ThoughtSpot, we used to use what we call block brain diagrams, which were even simplified versions of wire frames.

Bob Baxley：在 ThoughtSpot，我们曾经使用所谓的大脑框图，甚至是线框的简化版本。

It was just big chunky blocks of here's how the screen could be and where things might be located.

它只是屏幕的样子和东西可能所在的位置的大块块。

And because it was so low fidelity, people couldn't get into commenting on what it looked like.

由于它的保真度太低，人们无法评论它的外观。

We had to talk about conceptually what it was.

我们必须从概念上讨论它是什么。

And so we were trying to build up this firm foundation where we could go from the block frames to wire frames to kind of the final expression.

所以我们试图建立这个坚实的基础，我们可以从块框架到线框架再到最终的表达。

Bob Baxley: And I think it helped us clarify what we were trying to do conceptually so that by the time we got to the final visual presentation, that stuff was actually really simple.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：我认为它帮助我们澄清了我们在概念上想要做什么，这样当我们到达最终的视觉呈现时，这些东西实际上非常简单。

And initially it made the product team really nervous because we would be sitting in these block frames and wire frames for sometimes weeks, and they'd be like, when are we finally going to see the comps?

最初，这让产品团队非常紧张，因为我们有时会在这些块框架和线框架中坐上几周，他们会想，我们什么时候才能看到比较？

Bob Baxley: And then what would happen, is because we had such a robust design system, once we locked down on the block frames, we could send it to an agency and they could do the full high-res comps in a day, because they knew exactly what they were doing.

Bob Baxley：然后会发生的事情是，因为我们拥有如此强大的设计系统，一旦我们锁定了块框架，我们就可以将其发送给代理机构，他们可以在一天内完成完整的高分辨率合成，因为他们确切地知道自己在做什么。

And so the PMs were always like, what the hell happened overnight?

所以产品经理们总是会问，一夜之间到底发生了什么？

You're like, well, it turns out that the high-res stuff, that's not the hard thing.

你会想，好吧，事实证明，高分辨率的东西并不是难事。

The hard thing is the heavy lifting of thinking, what are we really trying to do?

困难的是思考的重担，我们真正想做的是什么？

That's the hard part.

这是最困难的部分。

Bob Baxley: And if you do the high-res stuff, you really muddy the waters.

Bob Baxley：如果你做高分辨率的事情，你真的会把水搅浑了。

And I think you end up spending a lot more time churning, if you didn't...

我认为如果你不这样做的话，你最终会花更多的时间进行搅拌。

Again, I'm going to go back to the movie metaphor, because I studied film.

再次，我要回到电影的比喻，因为我学过电影。

If you're trying to fix script issues when you're in production or storyboarding, you're going to churn and you're going to waste a lot of effort.

如果您在制作或制作故事板时试图解决脚本问题，您就会流失并且会浪费大量精力。

So you've got to figure out what you're trying to do before you go draw the high-res stuff.

因此，在绘制高分辨率内容之前，您必须弄清楚自己要做什么。

And I think a lot of the gen AI tools, it's this seductive thing of, hey, let's just go, let's go make the comp and see what we think.

我认为很多新一代人工智能工具都是如此诱人的东西，嘿，让我们开始吧，让我们去做比较，看看我们的想法。

I don't really know if you're going to get anything great out of that process, maybe.

我真的不知道你是否会从这个过程中得到任何伟大的东西，也许。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a really interesting counter-narrative because it feels like every team now is just straight to prototypes.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常有趣的反叙事，因为感觉现在每个团队都直接制作原型。

I just had the C...

我刚拿到C...

She's one of the CPOs at Microsoft.

她是微软的首席产品官之一。

I realize there's many CPOs, and she has this concept of demos before memos and just prompt sets or any PRDs, you should just be prototyping all your ideas.

我意识到有很多 CPO，她有在备忘录之前演示的概念，只是提示集或任何 PRD，你应该只是对你所有的想法进行原型设计。

And so it's interesting to hear the perspective of maybe it's actually hurting your ability to come up with a really clever solution versus the obvious solution.

因此，听到这样的观点很有趣：也许它实际上损害了你提出真正聪明的解决方案而不是显而易见的解决方案的能力。

Bob Baxley: Yeah.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：是的。

Look, I think at some point, hopefully people just back up and ask themselves, are we actually producing better product because of this process?

听着，我认为在某个时候，希望人们能够回过头来问问自己，我们是否真的因为这个过程而生产出了更好的产品？

And we're going faster, but faster can't be the ultimate goal.

我们正在走得更快，但更快并不是最终目标。

You need to be creating something great as well, right?

你也需要创造一些伟大的东西，对吗？

Something that's sustainable and frankly that you're proud of and your users find value in.

坦率地说，这是一种可持续的东西，让您感到自豪，并且让您的用户发现价值。

And if you're just throwing so much spaghetti at the wall, I don't know if having a spaghetti throwing machine that goes faster is...

如果你只是往墙上扔那么多意大利面，我不知道拥有一台速度更快的意大利面扔机是否……

Bob Baxley: Look, there's a counter argument that's...

鲍勃·巴克斯利：看，有一个相反的论点是......

You can say, oh, it's like Darwinian evolution, and we're just going to spin through a bunch of random mutations and see what happens.

你可以说，哦，这就像达尔文进化论，我们只是要旋转一堆随机突变，看看会发生什么。

And I used to joke that it's true, that if you take a bunch of hydrogen atoms and give them 14 billion years, you could end up with a tiger, but you don't know you're going to get a tiger and you could get a six headed shrimp instead, and you don't really know when it's going to shift.

我曾经开玩笑说，这是真的，如果你把一堆氢原子给它们140亿年，你最终可能会得到一只老虎，但你不知道你会得到一只老虎，而你可能会得到一只六头虾，而且你真的不知道它什么时候会发生变化。

So I'm not exactly sure Darwinian evolution is the way we create great product, but a lot of companies are making a run at it.

所以我不太确定达尔文进化论是我们创造伟大产品的方式，但很多公司正在尝试这样做。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to take us to a recurring segment on the podcast called AI Corner.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想带我们看看播客上一个反复出现的片段，名为“AI Corner”。

And in AI Corner, I ask guests to share what's one way that you've learned or figured out to use AI in your job to help you do better work, to help you do faster work?

在人工智能角，我请嘉宾分享一下您在工作中学到或想出的一种使用人工智能来帮助您做得更好、更快地工作的方法是什么？

Bob Baxley: Well, my job right now is trying to figure out what my job is.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：嗯，我现在的工作就是弄清楚我的工作是什么。

And so the thing I've been using AI for is I've very explicitly been using it as a life coach.

所以我一直在使用人工智能的目的是，我非常明确地将它用作生活教练。

And so I had seen a couple of prompts about asking it what a blind spot was or what my strengths and weaknesses were.

所以我看到了一些提示，询问它什么是盲点或者我的优点和缺点是什么。

I'd seen some prompts about that stuff.

我看到过一些关于这些东西的提示。

Bob Baxley: And one of them was really fantastic.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：其中之一真的很棒。

One of them was, what's an outdated mindset that I'm holding onto that's not still serving me?

其中之一是，我所坚持的一种过时的心态是什么，但它仍然不再为我服务？

And it came back with a very polite prompt or very polite response about, well, given your age and your profession, it's not surprising that you're very wedded to the idea of control, but that's not really the world we're living in anymore.

它回来时有一个非常礼貌的提示或非常礼貌的回应，嗯，考虑到你的年龄和你的职业，你非常执着于控制的想法并不奇怪，但这已经不再是我们生活的世界了。

And that's not probably going to suit the thing you're trying to do next, which is writing and publishing and speaking and stuff.

这可能不适合你接下来要做的事情，即写作、出版、演讲等等。

And although it's statistically derived, it did come back with a really nice phrase, which I view...

虽然它是统计得出的，但它确实带来了一个非常好的短语，我认为......

Bob Baxley: Although it's statistically derived, it did come back with a really nice phrase which I've used in your show, which was, try to focus on choreography over control.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：虽然它是统计得出的，但它确实带来了我在你的节目中使用过的一个非常好的短语，那就是，尝试专注于编排而不是控制。

Bob Baxley: And so I thought that was really useful.

Bob Baxley：所以我认为这非常有用。

I asked for some of my blind spots, that was also useful.

我问了一些我的盲点，这也很有用。

I use it for a lot of exercise input, that's useful.

我用它来进行大量的练习输入，这很有用。

And the exercise that I've gone through most recently was I realized that it was inferring these things about me from the things that I had asked it to help me with in the past.

我最近经历的练习是我意识到它正在从我过去要求它帮助我的事情中推断出关于我的这些事情。

Bob Baxley: So instead, I just switched.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：所以，我只是换了。

I just went to ChatGPT, start a new project and said, I want you to be my life coach.

我刚刚去了 ChatGPT，开始了一个新项目并说，我希望你成为我的生活教练。

I want you to ask me five questions a day for the next five days.

我希望你在接下来的五天内每天问我五个问题。

Let's go through those so you can explicitly become better at helping me with this task.

让我们回顾一下这些内容，以便您可以明确地更好地帮助我完成这项任务。

Bob Baxley: And so we've just gone through that process and it's been really useful for me.

Bob Baxley：我们刚刚经历了这个过程，它对我来说非常有用。

It's no substitute for a therapist or a real coach or anything like that.

它无法替代治疗师或真正的教练或类似的东西。

It's not a human being.

这不是一个人。

It doesn't care about me.

它不关心我。

I'm not saying that you should use it instead of these other options.

我并不是说您应该使用它来代替这些其他选项。

You need a human being as well.

你也需要一个人。

But it's been very good at reflecting back to me things that I think have been floating around in my undermind.

但它非常善于向我反映那些我认为一直在我脑海中浮现的事情。

Bob Baxley: So there's a wonderful book called Hair Brain Tortoise Mind by a gentleman named Guy Claxton.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：有一本很棒的书，名叫《毛脑龟思维》，作者是一位名叫盖伊·克拉克斯顿的绅士。

In that, he talks about the undermind.

在其中，他谈到了内心深处的想法。

And sometimes you might've heard this as your unconscious or something like that.

有时你可能会听到这是你的无意识或类似的东西。

But I think of your undermind as the part of your brain that's processing information before it gets to language.

但我认为你的潜意识是大脑中在信息转化为语言之前对其进行处理的部分。

And then when you go to consciousness, you've turned it into language.

然后当你进入意识时，你就把它变成了语言。

Bob Baxley: And language isn't the full universe of things you can think, language is what you can think in English.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：语言并不是你能想到的全部事物，语言是你能用英语思考的东西。

And if you talk to multilingual speakers, they'll tell you that they can think things in other languages than what they can think in English.

如果你和多语言的人交谈，他们会告诉你，他们可以用其他语言思考问题，而不是用英语思考问题。

Bob Baxley: So if you only speak English, you're only in one vein of what you could think, but your undermind is operating through all this other stuff.

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：所以，如果你只会说英语，那么你只能想到你能想到的一种方式，但你的潜意识正在通过所有其他东西来运作。

And for the computer nerds out there, you could think about it as a compiled code versus interpreted code.

对于计算机迷来说，您可以将其视为编译代码与解释代码。

Bob Baxley: So your undermind work in a compiled code and it could do a lot of stuff that you can't really do in the interpreted code which moves slower and has different orientations and we call that consciousness.

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：所以你的潜意识在编译的代码中工作，它可以做很多你在解释的代码中无法真正做的事情，解释的代码移动速度较慢并且具有不同的方向，我们称之为意识。

Bob Baxley: So I was feeding ChatGPT all this stuff over the last year or so, and there are all these patterns in my undermind that had been going into that I wasn't able to express with conscious language.

Bob Baxley：所以在过去一年左右的时间里，我向 ChatGPT 提供了所有这些东西，我的潜意识中存在着所有这些模式，但我无法用有意识的语言来表达。

Bob Baxley: And so when I started asking it questions, I think what it was doing was it was statistically reflecting patterns back to me that already existed in my undermind, but because it was putting them into language, my conscious mind could now recognize them and respond to them.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：所以当我开始问它问题时，我认为它正在做的是，它在统计上向我反映已经存在于我的潜意识中的模式，但因为它正在将它们转化为语言，所以我的意识思维现在可以识别它们并对它们做出反应。

Bob Baxley: And so again, as a life coach, I found it very useful as a mirror back to things that I was probably already thinking.

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：作为一名生活教练，我再次发现它非常有用，可以作为镜子回到我可能已经在思考的事情。

And it helped me clarify my thoughts.

它帮助我理清了我的想法。

It's not pushing me in new directions that a human might do, but it's still been super useful.

它并没有把我推向人类可能做的新方向，但它仍然非常有用。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is extremely cool.

Lenny Rachitsky：这非常酷。

That is a really cool use case.

这是一个非常酷的用例。

I don't know if you've heard the Jerry Colona episode that I did recently.

我不知道你是否听过我最近做的杰瑞·科洛纳那一集。

Okay, we'll link to it.

好的，我们将链接到它。

He's got four questions that he suggests people ask themselves.

他建议人们问自己四个问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: The first is the title of the actual episode, how are you complicit in creating the conditions you say you don't want?

Lenny Rachitsky：第一个是实际剧集的标题，你是如何同谋创造你所说的你不想要的条件的？

And this often leads to a lot of interesting insights about yourself, and there's an important part of it, complicit being like you're not responsible, but you're actually helping achieve a thing.

这通常会导致你对自己产生很多有趣的见解，其中有一个重要的部分，即同谋，就像你不负责任，但你实际上正在帮助实现某件事。

Lenny Rachitsky: And then also it's an important element of say you don't want, you say you don't want to be busy, but something you just keep creating busyness for yourself, maybe you do want this.

Lenny Rachitsky：这也是一个重要的元素，你说你不想要，你说你不想忙碌，但你只是不断地为自己创造忙碌，也许你确实想要这个。

So anyway, we'll link to that episode.

所以无论如何，我们都会链接到该集。

There's a lot of good stuff there.

那里有很多好东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, one final question before we get to our very exciting lightning round.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，还有最后一个问题。

This is one that I don't think you have any idea I'm going to ask you about.

我认为你不知道我要问你这个问题。

And so I'm curious where this goes.

所以我很好奇这会发生什么。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is a story that Joff Redfern suggested.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这是乔夫·雷德芬建议的一个故事。

I ask you.

我问你。

He told me that you're obsessed with space.

他告诉我你对太空很着迷。

You love researching space, telling stories about space.

你喜欢研究太空，讲述有关太空的故事。

There's a story that you share about this guy named John Hobolt.

您分享了一个关于约翰·霍博尔特的故事。

Does that ring a bell?

这是否敲响了警钟？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Share that story because I think there's something really powerful here for people building products.

分享这个故事是因为我认为对于人们构建产品来说，这里有一些非常强大的东西。

Bob Baxley: So I should clarify, I am a fan of astronomy and space, but I'm a particular fan of the Apollo program because I view the Apollo program and the moon landings as the greatest peacetime accomplishment of mankind ever.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：所以我应该澄清一下，我是天文学和太空的爱好者，但我特别喜欢阿波罗计划，因为我认为阿波罗计划和登月是人类有史以来最伟大的和平时期成就。

Bob Baxley: And I think it's an incredible...

鲍勃·巴克斯利：我认为这是一个令人难以置信的......

There's a profound number of leadership lessons and individual lessons to be learned from that program.

从该计划中可以学到大量的领导力课程和个人课程。

And I've done multiple talks about this.

我已经多次谈论过这个问题。

I could go on for hours.

我可以持续几个小时。

Bob Baxley: The particular question you're asking is John Hobolt.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：你问的具体问题是约翰·霍博尔特。

So, John was, I can't remember exactly where he was at the NASA hierarchy, but he was one of the people that was tasked with figuring out the question of how do you go to the moon?

所以，约翰，我记不清他在 NASA 的职位，但他是负责解决如何登上月球这一问题的人之一。

Bob Baxley: So just to take yourself back in history a little bit, John Kennedy, president Kennedy goes to Rice University, I believe it's 19 September or May 1962, he gives the famous moon speech, we choose to go to the moon not because it's easy, but because it is hard, that whole thing, which I also have to say, and maybe a link to this in the show notes as well, everyone should go watch that talk.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：让你回顾一下历史，约翰·肯尼迪，肯尼迪总统去了莱斯大学，我相信那是 1962 年 9 月 19 日或 5 月，他发表了著名的登月演讲，我们选择登月不是因为它很容易，而是因为它很难，整个事情，我也不得不说，也许在节目笔记中也有这个链接，每个人都应该去看那个演讲。

That is the perfect Ted talk.

这就是 Ted 的完美演讲。

Bob Baxley: It clocks in right at 18 minutes.

鲍勃·巴克斯利 (Bob Baxley)： 正好 18 分钟。

It shows you how to sell a big, giant, bold vision.

它向您展示如何推销宏大、宏大、大胆的愿景。

The specifics that Kennedy gets into the way he sets context at the beginning, the technical problems are going to happen, how much money it's going to cost, the way he puts the passion, why we're going to go to the moon, the whole thing.

肯尼迪一开始就设定了背景，技术问题将会发生，需要花费多少钱，他表达热情的方式，我们为什么要登上月球，等等。

Bob Baxley: It is an incredible talk.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：这是一次令人难以置信的演讲。

It's the only moonshot talk ever because a moonshot has to actually go to the moon.

这是有史以来唯一一次关于登月计划的讨论，因为登月计划必须真正前往月球。

And so it is an incredible talk.

所以这是一次令人难以置信的谈话。

So go watch the talk.

那么就去看演讲吧。

But he steps off the stage and people at NASA are like, we've only recently put Alan Shepard into space.

但当他走下舞台时，美国宇航局的人们就会说，我们最近才把艾伦·谢泼德送入太空。

Bob Baxley: And he just went up and went down.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：他就这样上来下去。

That was almost like it was a blue origins type thing that was just up and down.

那几乎就像是一个蓝色起源类型的东西，只是上下移动。

We didn't even do a lap around the earth like the Russians did with Yuri Gagarin.

我们甚至没有像俄罗斯人与尤里·加加林那样绕地球一圈。

And now we're talking about going to the moon.

现在我们正在谈论去月球。

Nobody knows how to go to the moon.

没有人知道如何去月球。

Bob Baxley: And there was three different options for going to the moon, one at the time, one was to build a big giant rocket and just go straight to the moon.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：去月球有三种不同的选择，一种是当时，一种是建造一个巨大的火箭，然后直接去月球。

It's called direct ascend.

这就是所谓的直接上升。

And the main advocate for that was Warner von Braun, who was the main rocket guy in the world.

其主要倡导者是华纳·冯·布劳恩（Warner von Braun），他是世界上主要的火箭专家。

A little bit of a complicated past.

有点复杂的过去。

Bob Baxley: But nevertheless, Warner von Braun's a big guy.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：尽管如此，华纳·冯·布劳恩还是个大人物。

He is, got the president's ear.

他是，得到了总统的耳朵。

He's like, let's build a big giant rocket, go to the moon.

他说，让我们建造一个巨大的火箭，去月球吧。

People are like, yeah, the problem is when you get to the moon, the rocket's still super big.

人们会说，是的，问题是当你到达月球时，火箭仍然超级大。

So these guys are going to have to descend a big ladder.

所以这些人将不得不从一个大梯子上下来。

That's a problem.

这是一个问题。

So that was one idea.

这就是一个想法。

Bob Baxley: There was another called Earth Orbit Rendezvous where you spend two spacecraft into Earth and then you link them up in Earth orbit and then one of them goes off to the moon, but you still got to land that thing on the moon.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：还有一个叫做“地球轨道交会”，你用两艘航天器进入地球，然后将它们在地球轨道上连接起来，然后其中一艘飞向月球，但你仍然必须把那个东西降落在月球上。

Bob Baxley: And then there's a third idea called Lunar Orbit Rendezvous, which is where you build a spacecraft that includes a smaller spacecraft.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：还有第三个想法，称为月球轨道交会，即建造一艘包含较小航天器的航天器。

So you send up two spacecraft together, one of them's smaller, much lighter, and you use that just as the ship that goes down to the moon's surface and back up.

因此，你同时发射两艘航天器，其中一艘更小、更轻，你可以将其用作前往月球表面并返回的飞船。

Bob Baxley: And that spacecraft is truly a spacecraft.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：那艘航天器确实是一艘航天器。

It only flies in space, which means the engineering requirements around it are profoundly different because it doesn't have to survive re-entry into the earth.

它只在太空中飞行，这意味着它周围的工程要求截然不同，因为它不必在重返地球后仍能生存。

And so as a result, it can be much lighter.

因此，它可以变得更轻。

Bob Baxley: And it turns out that the whole problem of landing on the moon is it's a weight problem.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：事实证明，登陆月球的全部问题是重量问题。

You got to lift all the stuff off the earth, which is incredibly expensive for fuel.

你必须把所有的东西从地球上运走，这对于燃料来说是非常昂贵的。

You got to land it on.

你必须把它着陆。

There's just a lot goes on.

发生了很多事情。

And so Hubert had come across this paper from a gentleman named Yuri Kondrachev who was living in Ukraine in the 1916, 1918 when he wrote this paper.

因此，休伯特是从一位名叫尤里·康德拉切夫 (Yuri Kondrachev) 的绅士那里看到这篇论文的，这位绅士于 1916 年、1918 年撰写这篇论文时住在乌克兰。

Bob Baxley: And he was the first guy to theorize Lunar Orbit Rendezvous.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：他是第一个提出月球轨道交会理论的人。

And I try to take people back to that.

我试图让人们回到这一点。

You and I can think about going to the moon, but Yuri Kondrachev in 1918 is on the plains of Ukraine looking at the moon, and he's actually thinking about how to really go to the moon.

你我都可以考虑去月球，但是1918年的尤里·康德拉乔夫正在乌克兰的平原上看着月球，他实际上正在考虑如何真正去月球。

Bob Baxley: He's figuring it out.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：他正在解决这个问题。

And so he writes this paper, John discovers it years later, and John's trying to sell Lunar Orbit Rendezvous.

所以他写了这篇论文，约翰在几年后发现了它，约翰正试图出售月球轨道交会。

It's not going over at NASA.

NASA 不会就此结束。

And so eventually he decides to go around all the hierarchy and he sends a very famous memo to one of the top guys at NASA.

所以最终他决定绕过所有的层级结构，并向美国宇航局的一位高层发送了一份非常著名的备忘录。

Bob Baxley: The memo starts somewhat as a voice in the wilderness and then it goes on.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：这份备忘录一开始有点像荒野中的声音，然后继续下去。

And then there's points in there where he's really emphatic, do we want to go to the moon or not?

然后他在某些地方非常强调，我们是否想去月球？

And then he goes through all the math of how going to the moon is all about weight and this was the only way to do it, and there was no other option, stuff like that.

然后他计算了所有关于登月如何与重量有关的数学知识，这是唯一的方法，没有其他选择，诸如此类的东西。

Bob Baxley: He just made the case and he risked his whole career.

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：他只是冒着整个职业生涯的风险提出了这个理由。

The whole thing could have blown up.

整个事情可能会爆炸。

He could have been fired for going around the hierarchy and all that sort of stuff, but of course, he's able to champion the idea.

他可能会因为绕过等级制度和诸如此类的事情而被解雇，但当然，他能够支持这个想法。

Bob Baxley: And I think it was another year or so after that famous memo, which you could read online, it's nine pages long or something.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：我认为那篇著名的备忘录又过了一年左右的时间，你可以在网上阅读它，它有九页之类的长。

After the memo, it was still some time before they adopted Lunar Orbit Rendezvous, but eventually they do.

备忘录发布后，他们还需要一段时间才能采用月球轨道交会系统，但最终他们还是采用了。

And even with Don brought himself was very complimentary to ALT for pushing that perspective.

即使 Don 也对 ALT 推动这一观点表示非常赞赏。

Bob Baxley: So I tell the story, one, because it's just amazing story and it does force you to go back to the moment of like, wait, they didn't actually know how to do it.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：所以我讲这个故事，一是因为这是一个令人惊奇的故事，它确实迫使你回到那个时刻，等等，他们实际上不知道该怎么做。

We only know how to do it now because they've done it.

我们现在才知道如何去做，因为他们已经做到了。

But there's that moment of uncertainty and I think you have to embrace and be amazed at that.

但存在着不确定的时刻，我认为你必须接受这一点并对此感到惊讶。

Bob Baxley: And it also shows you the power of these ideas.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：它也向你展示了这些想法的力量。

A really great idea somehow finds a way to live on somehow it just sits out there and it just waits for its time.

一个真正伟大的想法不知何故找到了一种生存方式，不知何故它只是坐在那里等待它的时机。

And Yuri had brought this idea into the world and it just sat around and then somebody it and dusted it off and was able to push for it and it came through.

尤里把这个想法带到了世界上，它就这样静静地存在着，然后有人把它掸掉，并能够推动它，它就实现了。

Bob Baxley: Then maybe the third lesson is ideas need champions.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：那么也许第三个教训是想法需要冠军。

They need champions willing to put themselves on the line for them.

他们需要愿意为他们冒险的冠军。

If you believe in something and you've made your case and you can really make your case, have the courage of your convictions and get behind it and fight as hard as you can for it.

如果你相信某件事，并且你已经证明了你的观点，并且你真的可以证明你的观点，那么就勇敢地坚持你的信念，支持它，并尽你所能地为之奋斗。

Lenny Rachitsky: Such a great story.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：真是一个伟大的故事。

I love that you summarize the takeaways too, by the way.

顺便说一句，我喜欢你也总结了要点。

So to me, the takeaways and the lessons here is one is coming back to your Pinterest board in the office, say the hard thing.

所以对我来说，这里的要点和教训就是回到你办公室的 Pinterest 板上，说困难的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Two is be patient.

Lenny Rachitsky：二是要有耐心。

It may take a little bit of time for a radical idea, especially to resonate and stick and get adoption.

一个激进的想法可能需要一点时间，尤其是要引起共鸣、坚持并获得采用。

So if you're pitching a big new product idea, don't assume that they'll immediately agree.

因此，如果您正在推销一个重大的新产品创意，请不要假设他们会立即同意。

Also, just this idea of if you really believe in it, do go and champion it.

另外，如果你真的相信它，那就去支持它。

There needs to be someone passionately arguing for this.

需要有人热情地为此争论。

Bob Baxley: Yeah, I'll just add to that one thing.

Bob Baxley：是的，我只想补充一件事。

I think people need to understand that they're advocating for ideas and not for themselves.

我认为人们需要明白，他们是在倡导想法，而不是为自己。

And when I talk to a lot of designers that may be true for PMS, I hear a lot of people say that they're reluctant to post on social media or on LinkedIn or something because like, "Well, I don't want to be self-promoting."

当我与很多设计师交谈时，我听到很多人说他们不愿意在社交媒体或 LinkedIn 或其他东西上发帖，因为比如，“好吧，我不想自我推销。”

Bob Baxley: And I try to counsel them like, look, it's not about self-promotion.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：我试着劝告他们，看，这与自我推销无关。

There are ideas that you care about that you want to see succeed in the world.

有些想法是你关心的，你希望看到它们在世界上取得成功。

And so get out there as an advocate of the idea.

因此，作为这个想法的倡导者，走出去吧。

It's not about you, it's about the idea.

这不是你的问题，而是想法的问题。

And don't be afraid to stand behind the idea.

并且不要害怕支持这个想法。

Lenny Rachitsky: We've spread a lot of good ideas in this conversation, Bob.

Lenny Rachitsky：鲍勃，我们在这次谈话中传播了很多好主意。

With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: We added a ding to this.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们对此添加了一个提示。

I like that drama you added and there's a whole thing now.

我喜欢你添加的那部戏剧，现在一切都完成了。

Okay, first question, what are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

好的，第一个问题，您发现自己最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Bob Baxley: So the three books I'm going to recommend, the first one's a beautiful poetic book about typography called The Elements of Typographic Style by Robert Bringhurst.

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：所以我要推荐的三本书，第一本是一本关于印刷术的美丽诗意书，名为《印刷风格的元素》，作者是罗伯特·布林赫斯特（Robert Bringhurst）。

Robert was the poet laureate of Canada.

罗伯特是加拿大桂冠诗人。

And the first 80 pages will change how you think about typography.

前 80 页将改变您对版式的看法。

Bob Baxley: It will open you up to the wonderful world of typography that we all live in.

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：它将带您进入我们所生活的美妙的版式世界。

You'll think differently about every sign you look at, about every movie credit you see, and it will give you an insight into the designer mindset.

你会对你看到的每一个标志、你看到的每一个电影片尾都有不同的思考，这会让你深入了解设计师的思维方式。

When you understand typography, I think you understand where designers come from and the best designers I know are just total type nerds.

当你了解排版时，我想你就会明白设计师从何而来，而我所认识的最好的设计师都只是十足的字体迷。

So highly recommend Elements of Typographic Style.

所以强烈推荐《印刷风格元素》。

Bob Baxley: Second book, Zen and the Motorcycle Maintenance.

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：第二本书，禅宗和摩托车维护。

Many people may know ultimately a philosophy book, but it's about the concept of quality, which I think is a very important topic.

很多人可能最终都知道一本哲学书，但它是关于质量的概念，我认为这是一个非常重要的话题。

So it talks about quality and the importance of how things integrate into cohesive whole, which I believe is the main challenge facing most software teams.

因此，它讨论了质量以及事物如何集成为有凝聚力的整体的重要性，我认为这是大多数软件团队面临的主要挑战。

They create something that's highly fragmented instead of a single hole.

他们创造出高度碎片化的东西，而不是单一的洞。

So, Zen in the Motorcycle Maintenance.

所以，禅宗在摩托车维修中。

Bob Baxley: And then the last one is a book called Time in the Art of Living by Robert Gruden.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：最后一本是罗伯特·格鲁登写的《生活的艺术中的时间》一书。

It's just a very interesting collection of impressionistic views of time and how time passes and what time means.

这只是一个非常有趣的印象派时间观、时间如何流逝以及时间意味着什么的集合。

So that's very different from the others and it's not something probably gets recommended on your show too often, but I think it'll help people in their lives in a powerful way.

所以这与其他的非常不同，而且它可能不会在你的节目中经常被推荐，但我认为它将以一种强有力的方式帮助人们的生活。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think these are all brand new entries in this question.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这些都是这个问题中的全新条目。

Next question, do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?

下一个问题，您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？

Bob Baxley: So I really enjoyed Severance.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：所以我真的很喜欢遣散费。

I enjoyed it as a filmmaker.

作为一名电影制片人，我很享受它。

I was just blown away at the filmmaking.

我对电影制作感到震惊。

I was intrigued with the story and the characters.

我对这个故事和人物很感兴趣。

And I think as someone who's worked in corporate America, when you understand that it's basically critique and commentary about the modern workplace.

我认为，作为一个在美国企业界工作过的人，当你明白这基本上是对现代工作场所的批评和评论时。

Bob Baxley: There were times that I just thought were unbelievably funny and insightful.

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：有时我觉得这非常有趣且富有洞察力。

It was definitely interesting watching it with my wife who was an attorney and hasn't worked in those kinds of environments.

和我的妻子一起观看这部电影绝对很有趣，她是一名律师，没有在那种环境下工作过。

So it was like an episode where some people got disappeared and the language that we're using was all around the language you would hear around a layoff.

所以这就像一个插曲，一些人失踪了，我们使用的语言都是你在裁员时听到的语言。

Bob Baxley: And so I was laughing myself to death, but she was like, "What?

鲍勃·巴克斯利：所以我笑死了，但她说：“什么？

What's going on?" So that's super fascinating and then I'll throw one other in there, which is not something I've recently seen, but something I highly recommend for everybody, which is Lords of Arabia.

发生什么事了？”所以这非常令人着迷，然后我会把另一个放在里面，这不是我最近看到的，但我强烈推荐给大家，那就是《阿拉伯之王》。

The Lords of Arabia is I think one of the two or three best expressions of the medium of film.

我认为《阿拉伯之王》是电影媒介的两三个最佳表达方式之一。

Bob Baxley: And so when you think about the ability to hold moving pictures, characters, story, music, photography, set design, costume, the whole constellation of variables that come to play into a movie, I think Lords of Arabia is probably one of the two or three most complete expressions of what the medium is capable of.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：所以，当你想到容纳电影、人物、故事、音乐、摄影、布景设计、服装以及电影中所有变量的能力时，我认为《阿拉伯之王》可能是媒体能力的两三个最完整表达之一。

Bob Baxley: And I think it's useful to think about in technology, all the different elements of a product and all the different elements of a user interface and how you can break those down the way you can break down all these elements of a movie and how many pieces of software do we use where somebody is actually conducting that symphony in a really coherent, powerful, full on way.

Bob Baxley：我认为在技术中思考产品的所有不同元素和用户界面的所有不同元素以及如何像分解电影的所有这些元素一样分解这些元素以及我们使用多少个软件来让某人真正以真正连贯、强大、完整的方式演奏交响乐是有用的。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that movie.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢那部电影。

Next question, do you have a favorite product that you have recently discovered that you really love?

下一个问题，您是否有最近发现并且真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品？

Bob Baxley: You're focused on recent and I'm just going to push back.

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：你关注的是最近的事情，我只想反驳一下。

No, there's nothing terribly recent.

不，最近没有什么特别的事。

The stuff that I go back to, I'll give you a couple of nerdy ones.

我要回顾的内容，我会给你一些书呆子的内容。

I have a Leica M6 cam, which is a film camera, and I recently started shooting with film again, which I absolutely love because it forces me to slow down.

我有一台徕卡 M6 相机，它是一台胶片相机，最近我又开始用胶片拍摄，我非常喜欢它，因为它迫使我放慢速度。

Bob Baxley: I always talk about Leica cameras, they're obscenely expensive, but the thing about Leica cameras is you show up different when you shoot with a Leica.

Bob Baxley：我总是谈论徕卡相机，它们贵得离谱，但徕卡相机的特点是，当你用徕卡拍摄时，你会呈现出不同的效果。

So when people think about cameras, they think about the quality of the image, they don't think about how the tool is going to change them.

因此，当人们想到相机时，他们想到的是图像的质量，而不是想到该工具将如何改变它们。

Bob Baxley: When you show up with an iPhone, you're thinking about sharing.

Bob Baxley：当你带着 iPhone 出现时，你正在考虑分享。

When you show up with a film camera, you're thinking about saving film and you're spending more time composing and thinking exactly about the shot.

当您带着胶片相机出现时，您会考虑节省胶片，并且会花更多时间构图和准确思考镜头。

When you show up with a digital SLR, you just take a whole bunch of pictures and hope something's going to turn out.

当你拿着数码单反相机出现时，你只是拍了一大堆照片，然后希望能有什么结果。

Bob Baxley: And so I think these cameras are very useful metaphor for being conscious about how the tools you pick are going to impact the thing that you produce.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：所以我认为这些相机是非常有用的比喻，可以让您意识到您选择的工具将如何影响您生产的产品。

So once you go into Figma, you've made a decision about the thing you're going to produce.

因此，一旦您进入Figma，您就已经决定了要制作的东西。

If you stay in a sketchbook, you've made a different decision.

如果你停留在素描本上，你就会做出不同的决定。

If you go into something else, you've made a different kind of decision.

如果你进入其他领域，你就会做出不同的决定。

Bob Baxley: So I say the Leica M6 with film because of that.

Bob Baxley：所以我说徕卡 M6 是带胶片的。

And then the software product I would point out, which is not terribly new, but I think it's worth noting, is a tool called Habitica.

然后我要指出的软件产品是一个名为 Habitica 的工具，它并不是很新，但我认为值得注意。

And Habitica is really fascinating.

Habitica 真的很迷人。

Ultimately, it's a habit tracker and task management app, but it's fundamentally a game.

最终，它是一个习惯跟踪器和任务管理应用程序，但它本质上是一个游戏。

Bob Baxley: It's a role playing game where you create a character and your character revolves and can buy armor and go on quests and things as you check off your habits and stuff.

Bob Baxley：这是一款角色扮演游戏，你可以创建一个角色，你的角色会旋转，可以购买盔甲并继续任务等，同时检查你的习惯和东西。

And it is the most interesting expression of shifting conceptual models that I've ever seen.

这是我所见过的概念模型转变的最有趣的表达。

Bob Baxley: So if you think about a conceptual model, it's sort of the software equivalent of a genre in a movie.

Bob Baxley：所以如果你考虑一个概念模型，它就相当于电影中的一种类型的软件。

And so once you say it's a project management software, you're in a certain genre.

因此，一旦您说它是一个项目管理软件，您就属于某种类型。

If you say it's a productivity tool, you're in a certain genre.

如果你说它是一种生产力工具，那么你就属于某种类型。

So if it's social media, you're in a certain genre.

因此，如果是社交媒体，那么您就属于某种类型。

So these are different genres.

所以这些是不同的流派。

Bob Baxley: And Habitica is really interesting because it mixes genres, it mixes role playing game with to do manager.

Bob Baxley：Habitica 非常有趣，因为它混合了各种类型，将角色扮演游戏与经理游戏混合在一起。

And so I think it's a really powerful example of how you can really shift the user's thinking in the same way movies for example.

因此，我认为这是一个非常有力的例子，说明如何能够像电影一样真正改变用户的思维。

Star Wars is ultimately a cowboy movie set in space.

《星球大战》最终是一部以太空为背景的牛仔电影。

Bob Baxley: And when you come to those two genre mashups are really interesting.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：当你谈到这两种类型的混搭时，真的很有趣。

When you come to a rom-com, you have a certain expectation of what's going to happen to a rom-com.

当你看一部浪漫喜剧时，你会对浪漫喜剧中会发生什么有一定的期望。

If somebody suddenly got shot in a rom-com, that would not make sense to you in the same way that if somebody made a really funny joke in a John Wick movie, it wouldn't make sense.

如果有人在浪漫喜剧中突然被枪杀，这对你来说就没有意义，就像有人在约翰威克电影中开了一个非常有趣的笑话，这对你来说没有意义一样。

Bob Baxley: So I think Habitica is just the most interesting example I've ever found is somebody really doing a fascinating mashup of conceptual models, which is...

Bob Baxley：所以我认为 Habitica 是我发现的最有趣的例子，有人真正做了一个令人着迷的概念模型的混搭，这是......

Sorry, I'll stop.

抱歉，我会停下来。

It's an unexplored and unexploited possibility of software ideas.

这是软件创意的一种未经探索和开发的可能性。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love how profound this lightning round already is.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这一轮闪电般的影响力。

The point about Leica changing the way you even think about the photo is so interesting, I've never thought of it that way.

徕卡改变你对照片的看法的这一点是如此有趣，我从来没有这样想过。

You mentioned Star Wars.

你提到了星球大战。

Have you seen Andor by the way?

顺便问一下，你见过安多吗？

Bob Baxley: No, but my wife, everybody's raving about it.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：不，但我的妻子，每个人都对此赞不绝口。

I've been watching basketball, so I just haven't had the spare time yet.

我一直在看篮球，所以还没有空闲时间。

But okay.

但好吧。

Lenny Rachitsky: I have a basketball question, but first of all, before we get to that, do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to find useful and work in life?

Lenny Rachitsky：我有一个篮球问题，但首先，在我们讨论这个问题之前，你有没有最喜欢的人生格言，你经常回来发现它在生活中有用和工作？

Bob Baxley: Yeah, so there's three quotes that I come back to all the time that I repeat in most of my talks.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：是的，我在大多数演讲中都会重复引用三句话。

First one I've already used, which is, design is clear thinking made visible, by Edward Tufte.

我已经使用过的第一个，即设计是清晰可见的思维，作者是爱德华·塔夫特（Edward Tufte）。

Bob Baxley: Second one is from the American landscape photographer, Ansel Adams.

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：第二张来自美国风景摄影师安塞尔·亚当斯（Ansel Adams）。

And I've also alluded to this and the quote is, there's nothing worse than a brilliant image of a fuzzy concept.

我也提到过这一点，引用的话是，没有什么比模糊概念的辉煌形象更糟糕的了。

And then the last one is an African proverb and it goes like this, if you want to go fast, go alone.

最后一句是一句非洲谚语，它是这样的，如果你想走得快，就一个人走。

If you want to go far, go together.

如果你想走得远，就一起走。

Bob Baxley: And I think we've touched on all three of those things today when we've talked about the resolution of comps, we've talked about using gen AI to try to go faster, things like that.

Bob Baxley：我认为今天当我们谈论比较的分辨率时，我们已经触及了所有这三件事，我们谈论了使用人工智能来尝试更快，诸如此类的事情。

And those two ideas collide in interesting way.

这两个想法以有趣的方式碰撞。

Bob Baxley: People think if they cut their colleagues out of the pie, they can go faster.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：人们认为，如果他们把同事排除在外，他​​们就能走得更快。

And it's true, they can go faster.

确实，他们可以走得更快。

You just can't go very far.

你只是不能走得太远。

You need a group if you want to go far.

如果你想走得更远，你需要一个团队。

And just because you can create a brilliant image doesn't mean you got a good concept.

仅仅因为你可以创造出出色的图像并不意味着你就有了一个好的概念。

Bob Baxley: Go look on Instagram, you'll find plenty of photographs that tingle your senses from a visual perspective and you will forget them by the time you close the app because they don't mean anything.

Bob Baxley：去 Instagram 上看看，你会发现很多从视觉角度刺激你感官的照片，当你关闭应用程序时你就会忘记它们，因为它们没有任何意义。

And so we live in a time when it's very easy to produce things at incredibly high production values, but they don't mean anything.

因此，我们生活在一个很容易以令人难以置信的高产值生产产品的时代，但它们没有任何意义。

And so they're just like fancy potato chips.

所以它们就像精美的薯片一样。

There's no nourishment there, man.

那里没有任何营养，伙计。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that this connects back to the vibe coding apps and prototypes that people build, but you can do it really quickly, but it won't go too far, potentially, not to hit on those tools.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这可以连接到人们构建的氛围编码应用程序和原型，但是你可以很快地做到这一点，但它不会走得太远，可能不会用到这些工具。

They're amazing.

他们太棒了。

Bob Baxley: They are.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：是的。

All this AI stuff is profoundly amazing and I will encourage people, one of the most amazing things for me about this moment in AI is that this, the kind of AI we're experiencing has been theorized for well over 50 years.

所有这些人工智能的东西都非常令人惊奇，我会鼓励人们，对我来说，人工智能这一时刻最令人惊奇的事情之一是，我们正在经历的这种人工智能已经被理论化了 50 多年。

Bob Baxley: So there is a vast warehouse of interesting, amazing thoughts from philosophers and engineers and social scientists and people thinking about what is this moment going to mean when we have this sort of artificial intelligence that challenges our conception of what it means to be human.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：哲学家、工程师、社会科学家和人们有大量有趣、令人惊奇的想法，他们在思考当我们拥有这种人工智能挑战我们对人类意义的概念时，这一刻意味着什么。

Bob Baxley: So there's so much stuff you could be reading to help you process this moment in the very intense and profound psychological challenges it's bringing forth.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：所以你可以阅读很多东西来帮助你应对这一刻所带来的非常强烈和深刻的心理挑战。

Lenny Rachitsky: It definitely feels like we're finally living in the future.

Lenny Rachitsky：感觉我们终于生活在未来了。

The future's actually happening.

未来确实正在发生。

It's going to be robots walking around soon.

很快就会有机器人到处走动。

We get self-driving cars all over San Francisco and it's really stark.

旧金山各地都有自动驾驶汽车，情况确实很糟糕。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's a future.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这是未来。

Well, that's my concern with a lot of the fiction of the future is most of it is dystopian and here's all the problems that we're going to run into, which is going to be useful.

嗯，这就是我对未来许多小说的担忧，其中大部分都是反乌托邦的，这是我们将遇到的所有问题，这将是有用的。

Here's the robot laws that we got to be thinking about.

这是我们必须考虑的机器人法则。

Bob Baxley: Just to go back to this idea of how once you create an expression of something, people baseline off of it.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：回到这个想法，一旦你创建了某种表达方式，人们就会以此为基础。

I recently got to hear Henry Modisett who's head of design at Perplexity, give a talk.

我最近听到 Perplexity 设计主管 Henry Modisett 的演讲。

And one of the things he said that just really struck me was that people's conception of AI was founded, was put out there by Hollywood years ago.

他说的让我印象深刻的一件事是，人们对人工智能的概念是几年前由好莱坞提出的。

Bob Baxley: So this idea that AI is going to take stuff over and is ultimately really dystopian and malevolent towards humans and stuff like that, it's actually something that's created by Hollywood and now we're trying to outlive how and stuff like that.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：人工智能将接管一切，最终对人类和类似的东西来说是真正的反乌托邦和恶意，这实际上是好莱坞创造的东西，现在我们正试图超越这样的方式和东西。

Bob Baxley: And so it's just such a great example of somebody put the concept out there and planted that seed in people's heads and now we're struggling to get people off that baseline and to look at it with fresh eyes.

鲍勃·巴克斯利（Bob Baxley）：这是一个很好的例子，有人提出了这个概念，并在人们的头脑中种下了种子，现在我们正在努力让人们脱离这条底线，并用新的眼光来看待它。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a really good point.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常好的观点。

It's much more entertaining to watch AI try to kill us all, not just, oh, everything's amazing.

观看人工智能试图杀死我们所有人更有趣，而不仅仅是，哦，一切都很棒。

Great job, AI.

干得好，人工智能。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, final question.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，最后一个问题。

I know you're a huge sports fan.

我知道你是一位超级体育迷。

In particular, you're a big Warriors fan.

特别是，你是勇士队的忠实粉丝。

So let me just ask you this.

所以让我问你这个问题。

Say you were running the Warriors, the owner of the Golden State Warriors, what would you change?

假设你正在管理勇士队，金州勇士队的老板，你会改变什么？

What would you change to help them win?

你会改变什么来帮助他们获胜？

Bob Baxley: A real team can't be dependent on a single player.

Bob Baxley：真正的团队不能依赖于单一球员。

And I think there's such a dramatic difference in the Warriors when Steph is on the court and off the court.

我认为当斯蒂芬在场上和场下时，勇士队有如此巨大的差异。

If you listen to the local announcers, they're always like, "These non-Steph minutes really matter."

如果你听当地播音员的话，他们总是会说，“这些非斯蒂芬的时间真的很重要。”

Bob Baxley: I look at that, I'm like, that's not really a team then, right?

鲍勃·巴克斯利：我看着那个，我想，那不是一个真正的团队，对吧？

That's Steph in the band of Merriman.

那是梅里曼乐队的斯蒂芬。

And the Warriors are bigger than that and most of these basketball teams are bigger than that currently.

勇士队的规模比这个更大，而且目前大多数篮球队的规模都比这个更大。

I think across a lot of places in the NBA, there's a single player that can go down that makes a difference in the organization's success and that just seems dangerous and not a team.

我认为在NBA的很多地方，有一个球员的倒下可以对球队的成功产生影响，但这看起来很危险，而不是一个团队。

Bob Baxley: So I don't know what to say.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：所以我不知道该说什么。

I don't know how you replace Steph Curry.

我不知道你是如何取代斯蒂芬·库里的。

He is a singular, if you even call him a generational player, it's a bit bigger than that.

他是一个奇人，如果你称他为一代球员，那也比这个更大了。

He is unequivocally the greatest shooter in the history of the game and he's one of only two or three players has actually fundamentally changed how the game's played.

他无疑是足球史上最伟大的射手，他是仅有的两到三名从根本上改变了比赛方式的球员之一。

Bob Baxley: But I just know for winning, the Warriors are at risk because Steph is meaningfully old for an NBA player and you can't have the whole franchise built around just him.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：但我只知道，为了获胜，勇士队面临着风险，因为斯蒂芬对于一名 NBA 球员来说已经很老了，你不能让整个球队只围绕他建立。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love this hot take.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个热门的镜头。

A great way to end it, Bob.

这是结束这一切的好方法，鲍勃。

I can listen to you all day.

我可以听你一整天。

This is so fun and interesting in so many ways on so many levels.

这在很多层面、很多方面都非常有趣。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and maybe learn more about what you're up to and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想要联系并了解更多关于您的动态以及听众如何对您有用，可以在哪里找到您？

Bob Baxley: So, Bobbaxley.com is the easiest place right now.

Bob Baxley：所以，Bobbaxley.com 是目前最简单的地方。

It's just a bento site, but I'll get some more stuff up there in the coming days, hopefully before this episode goes out.

这只是一个便当网站，但我会在接下来的几天里得到更多的东西，希望在这一集播出之前。

We'll see.

我们拭目以待。

Bob Baxley: But there's plenty of links there that'll help you connect to me on LinkedIn and some of my talks and a few Links to some other things that I find useful.

Bob Baxley：但是那里有很多链接可以帮助您在 LinkedIn 上与我联系，还有我的一些演讲以及一些我认为有用的其他内容的链接。

Just find me on LinkedIn.

只需在 LinkedIn 上找到我即可。

I publish pretty much every day on LinkedIn, so that's an easy way to find me.

我几乎每天都会在 LinkedIn 上发布内容，因此这是找到我的简单方法。

Bob Baxley: I'm happy to be connected to whoever is interested in being connected.

Bob Baxley：我很高兴能够与任何有兴趣建立联系的人建立联系。

And then in terms of how you can help me, I'll go back to what I said earlier.

然后关于你如何帮助我，我将回到我之前所说的。

It's not really about me, Lenny, it's about these ideas.

这并不是关于我，莱尼，而是关于这些想法。

It's about the idea that software matters, that we're making something for people on the other side of the glass and that it's a way that we show that we care and that we should care.

这是关于软件很重要的想法，我们正在为玻璃另一边的人们制作一些东西，这是我们表明我们关心并且我们应该关心的一种方式。

Bob Baxley: So it's not about me, it's about us together trying to create a digital world that we want to live in.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：所以这不是我的问题，而是我们共同努力创造一个我们想要生活的数字世界的问题。

The digital world right now, it's not something we really want to live in.

现在的数字世界，并不是我们真正想要生活的。

It's not a place any of us would turn our kids loose in.

这不是我们任何人都会让我们的孩子放松的地方。

You and I talked about this earlier.

你和我之前谈过这个。

The digital world's not safe for our kids.

数字世界对我们的孩子来说并不安全。

Have we done something wrong?

我们做错了什么吗？

So I hope people take that responsibility more seriously and try to help clean things up a little bit.

因此，我希望人们更加认真地承担这一责任，并努力帮助清理问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think we've made a dent in that.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为我们已经在这方面取得了一定进展。

Bob, thank you so much for being here.

鲍勃，非常感谢你来到这里。

Bob Baxley: Thank you so much, Lenny.

鲍勃·巴克斯利：非常感谢你，莱尼。

It's been a real honor, privilege, and just a ton of fun.

这是一种真正的荣誉、特权，而且充满乐趣。

So thank you so much.

非常感谢。

Lenny Rachitsky: Same for me.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：对我来说也是如此。

Bye everyone.

再见大家。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcast、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Lenny Rachitsky: Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 Lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。