How Snyk built a product-led growth juggernaut | Ben Williams (VP of Product at Snyk)

Ben Williams: Being able to identify the various micro and macro loops, how they're all connected, being able to document them in a qualitative model to communicate a shared understanding of how you grow, it's really powerful.

Ben Williams：能够识别各种微观和宏观循环，它们是如何相互联系的，能够以定性模型记录它们，以传达对如何成长的共同理解，这真的很强大。

Augmenting that then with the quantitative side of things that helps guide quarter to quarter focus and ensure you can be intentional about where you're investing, that becomes a big enabler.

然后通过量化的方式来增强这一点，这有助于指导季度与季度的重点，并确保您可以有意识地进行投资，这将成为一个重要的推动因素。

You're never going to have a shortage of ideas in a high performing growth team.

在一个高绩效的增长团队中，你永远不会缺少想法。

So, knowing where to focus amidst that kind of sea of ideas is a really important role of the strategy.

因此，知道在如此众多的想法中应该关注哪里是该战略的一个非常重要的角色。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客。

I'm Lenny, and my goal here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products.

我是莱尼，我的目标是帮助您更好地构建和种植产品。

I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard-won experiences building and scaling today's most successful companies.

我采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，学习他们建立和扩展当今最成功公司的来之不易的经验。

Today my guest is Ben Williams.

今天我的嘉宾是本·威廉姆斯。

Ben is a VP of product at Snyk which is likely one of the biggest and most interesting companies that you've never heard of.

Ben 是 Snyk 的产品副总裁，这可能是您从未听说过的最大、最有趣的公司之一。

Snyk makes it easy for developers to catch security issues in their code, and there's a lot to learn from how Snyk got started.

Snyk 使开发人员可以轻松地发现代码中的安全问题，并且可以从 Snyk 的起步过程中学到很多东西。

It started through product-led growth, evolved into product-led sales, was very community driven, and it was also laser-focused on developers which has become one of the most lucrative markets to go after.

它从产品主导的增长开始，演变为产品主导的销售，非常社区驱动，并且还高度关注开发人员，这已成为最有利可图的市场之一。

Lenny: In our conversation, we cover how the founders have Snyk out their first a hundred users, what they got wrong when they tried to monetize early on, when they hired their first marketing and sales people, how they structured and grew their growth and product teams, what they figured out about what should go into freemium and what shouldn't, and so much more.

Lenny：在我们的谈话中，我们讨论了创始人如何让 Snyk 找到他们的前 100 个用户，他们在早期尝试货币化时犯了什么错误，他们何时雇用第一批营销和销售人员，他们如何构建和发展他们的增长和产品团队，他们对什么应该进入免费增值模式和什么不应该进入免费增值模式的看法等等。

As you'll soon hear, Ben is British, and so, the episode is automatically going to sound more sophisticated and I can't wait for you to hear it.

正如您很快就会听到的那样，本是英国人，因此这一集自然会听起来更加复杂，我迫不及待地想让您听到它。

With that, I bring you Ben Williams.

接下来，我为您带来本·威廉姆斯。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Coda.

莱尼：这一集是由 Coda 为您带来的。

Coda's an all-in-one doc that combines the best of documents, spreadsheets, and apps in one place.

Coda 是一款一体化文档，将文档、电子表格和应用程序的最佳功能整合到一个地方。

I actually use Coda every single day.

事实上我每天都使用 Coda。

It's my home base for organizing my newsletter writing.

这是我组织时事通讯写作的大本营。

It's where I plan my content calendar, capture my research, and write the first drafts of each and every post.

我在这里规划我的内容日历、记录我的研究并撰写每篇文章的初稿。

It's also where I curate my private knowledge repository for paid newsletter subscribers, and it's also how I manage the workflow for this very podcast.

这也是我为付费时事通讯订阅者策划私人知识库的地方，也是我管理这个播客工作流程的方式。

Over the years, I've seen Coda evolve from being a tool that makes teams more productive to one that also helps bring the best practices across the tech industry to life with an incredibly rich collection of templates and guides in the Coda Doc Gallery, including resources for many guests on this podcast, including Shreyas, Gokul, and Shishir, the CEO of Coda.

多年来，我见证了 Coda 从一种提高团队工作效率的工具发展成为一种通过 Coda Doc Gallery 中极其丰富的模板和指南，帮助将整个科技行业的最佳实践变为现实的工具，其中包括为该播客的许多嘉宾提供的资源，包括 Shreyas、Gokul 和 Coda 首席执行官 Shishir。

Some of the best teams out there, like Pinterest, Spotify, Square and Uber use Coda to run effectively and have published their templates for anyone to use.

一些最好的团队，如 Pinterest、Spotify、Square 和 Uber，都使用 Coda 来有效运行，并发布了他们的模板供任何人使用。

Lenny: If you're ping-ponging between lots of documents and spreadsheets, make your life better and start using Coda.

Lenny：如果您在大量文档和电子表格之间来回切换，那么请开始使用 Coda，让您的生活变得更美好。

You can take advantage of a special limited time offer just for startups.

您可以利用专为初创公司提供的特殊限时优惠。

Head over to coda.io/ lenny to sign up and get $1,000 credit on your first statement.

前往 coda.io/lenny 进行注册，并在您的第一份账单上获得 1,000 美元的积分。

That's C-O-D-A.io/lenny to sign up and get $1,000 in credit on your account.

注册后即可在 C-O-D-A.io/lenny 上获得 1,000 美元的积分。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Athletic Greens.

莱尼：这一集是由 Athletic Greens 为您带来的。

I've been hearing about AG1 on basically every podcast that I listened to, like Tim Ferris and Lex Fridman, and so, I finally gave it a shot earlier this year and it has quickly become a core part of my morning routine, especially on days that I need to go deep on writing or record a podcast like this.

我基本上在我听过的每个播客上都听说过 AG1，比如 Tim Ferris 和 Lex Fridman，所以，我终于在今年早些时候尝试了一下，它很快就成为我早上例行公事的核心部分，尤其是在我需要深入写作或录制这样的播客的时候。

Here's three things that I love about AG1.

以下是我喜欢 AG1 的三点。

One, with a small scoop that dissolved in water, you're absorbing 75 vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and adaptogens.

第一，只需一小勺溶解在水中的物质，您就可以吸收 75 种维生素、矿物质、益生菌和适应原。

I kind of like to think of it as a little safety net for my nutrition in case I've missed something in my diet.

我有点喜欢将其视为我的营养的一个小安全网，以防我在饮食中错过了某些东西。

Two, they treat AG1 like a software product.

第二，他们将 AG1 视为软件产品。

Apparently they're on their 52nd iteration and they're constantly evolving it based on the latest science, research studies, and internal testing that they do.

显然他们正在进行第 52 次迭代，并且他们根据最新的科学、研究和内部测试不断改进它。

And three, it's just one easy thing that I can do every single day to take care of myself.

第三，这只是我每天可以做的一件简单的事情来照顾自己。

Lenny: Right now it's time to reclaim your health and arm your immune system with convenient daily nutrition.

莱尼：现在是时候恢复健康并用方便的日常营养来武装您的免疫系统了。

It's just one scoop in a cup of water every day, and that's it.

每天只需将一勺放入一杯水中即可。

There's no need for a million different pills and supplements to look out for your health.

无需使用一百万种不同的药物和补充剂来照顾您的健康。

To make it easy, athletic Greens is going to give you a free one-year supply of immune supporting vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase.

为了方便起见，Agent Greens 将在您首次购买时为您提供一年免费的免疫支持维生素 D 和 5 个免费旅行套装。

All you have to do is visit athleticgreens.com/lenny.

您所要做的就是访问 sportsgreens.com/lenny。

Again, that's athletic greens.com/lenny to take ownership over your health and pick up the ultimate daily nutritional insurance.

再次强调，运动绿色.com/lenny 可以掌控您的健康并获得终极的每日营养保险。

Ben Williams: Thank you very much, Lenny.

本·威廉姆斯：非常感谢你，莱尼。

Thanks first of all for inviting me.

首先感谢您邀请我。

It's a pleasure to finally meet you.

很高兴终于见到你了。

I've got to say that kind of what you're creating with the newsletter and now the podcast, just such awesome resources for the product growth and wider tech community, so it's real honor to be invited onto the show, and I hope there's a few useful things that people can take away.

我必须说，您通过时事通讯和现在的播客所创造的内容，对于产品增长和更广泛的技术社区来说都是如此出色的资源，所以很荣幸被邀请参加这个节目，我希望人们可以学到一些有用的东西。

Lenny: Awesome, man.

莱尼：太棒了，伙计。

I really appreciate that.

我真的很感激。

I have no doubt there will be many useful things people will be able to take away.

我毫不怀疑人们将能够带走许多有用的东西。

I'm really excited to chat about Snyk and the things that you're building there.

我真的很高兴能谈论 Snyk 以及你们在那里构建的东西。

I feel like Snyk is this very under-talked about company and also super fascinating companies, especially in terms of how it got started, how it scaled, and it's also at the center of so many trends, product-led growth, community-led growth, focusing on developers to grow, and also just security in general is really interesting, and so, I'm really looking forward to our chat.

我觉得 Snyk 是一家很少被谈论的公司，也是一家超级迷人的公司，特别是在它如何开始、如何扩展方面，它也是许多趋势的中心，产品主导的增长、社区主导的增长、专注于开发人员的成长，而且总体上的安全性非常有趣，所以，我真的很期待我们的聊天。

Lenny: Before we get into all of that, I'd love to spend just a minute on your background.

莱尼：在我们讨论所有这些之前，我想花一分钟时间介绍一下您的背景。

So, you're currently VP product at Snyk, and I'm curious how you got to that role and just some of the other wonderful things you've done in your career along the way there.

那么，您目前是 Snyk 的产品副总裁，我很好奇您是如何担任这个职位的，以及您在职业生涯中所做的一些其他精彩的事情。

Ben Williams: I'll try to keep it reasonably short.

Ben Williams：我会尽量保持简短。

My education is in computer science, graduated from the University of Manchester back in the late '90s.

我的专业是计算机科学，于 90 年代末毕业于曼彻斯特大学。

I'd already landed as a job as a developer, but ended up having a bunch of other interesting offers, one of which was to join a small startup building requirements management tooling for product and engineering folks.

我已经找到了一份开发人员的工作，但最终得到了一堆其他有趣的工作机会，其中之一是加入一家小型初创公司，为产品和工程人员构建需求管理工具。

This was all pre-Agile, but that whole space of developer tooling, engineering tooling, it was something I just felt naturally drawn to and it's where I've really specialized through my whole career.

这都是前敏捷时代的事，但开发人员工具、工程工具的整个领域，是我自然而然地被吸引的东西，也是我在整个职业生涯中真正专业化的地方。

I actually joined that company as a solutions engineer, so lots of demos and so on.

我实际上是作为解决方案工程师加入该公司的，所以有很多演示等等。

I was really close to the product team, but also speaking with customers every day which as is quite common I think was my path into products there.

我与产品团队关系非常密切，而且每天也与客户交谈，我认为这是我进入那里产品的道路，这很常见。

Ben Williams: Several years and a few acquisitions later, I find myself in IBM with the Rational software developer tooling group.

Ben Williams：几年后，经过几次收购，我发现自己在 IBM 的 Rational 软件开发人员工具小组工作。

I was leading parts of the product strategy there and a bunch of initiatives.

我在那里领导了部分产品战略和一系列举措。

I actually, I learned a ton of useful stuff there, but also that I had a strong preference for working in smaller, fast-growing orgs verse 350,000 people .

事实上，我在那里学到了很多有用的东西，而且我非常喜欢在规模较小、快速增长的组织中工作，而不是在 350,000 人的组织中工作。

After an interesting unexpected interlude, leading a DevOps transformation at a fintech and some consulting and advising, I then joined CloudBees.

经过一段有趣的、意想不到的插曲，领导了一家金融科技公司的 DevOps 转型并进行了一些咨询和建议，然后我加入了 CloudBees。

They're a DevOps startup with an open-core model.

他们是一家采用开放核心模式的 DevOps 初创公司。

I was leading product design and growth there.

我在那里领导产品设计和发展。

Stayed with them for three years through several raises and a period of really fast growth before finally joining Snyk to build out our growth organization and lead our developer experience initiatives.

在他们工作了三年，经历了几次加薪和一段非常快速的增长期，最后加入 Snyk 来建立我们的成长组织并领导我们的开发者体验计划。

I have a broad remit at Snyk now than just the growth org, but yeah, that's how it started.

我现在在 Snyk 的职责范围很广，而不仅仅是增长组织，但是，是的，这就是它的开始。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

To give folks a sense of just how successful and big Snyk has gotten, one is just what does Snyk do, we haven't even talked about that yet, and then two, just some stats about the scale of the company and the business at this point.

为了让人们了解 Snyk 取得的成功和规模，一是 Snyk 做了什么，我们甚至还没有讨论过；二是关于目前公司规模和业务的一些统计数据。

Ben Williams: The developer security company, we make it ridiculously easy for developers and their teams to improve their security posture while still moving fast.

Ben Williams：作为开发人员安全公司，我们让开发人员及其团队能够非常轻松地改善他们的安全状况，同时仍然保持快速发展。

So, Snyk can find and automatically fixed vulnerabilities in code, open source dependencies, containers, infrastructure and cloud configurations, and all underpinned by the best security intelligence data in the market with a laser focus on developer experiences, which is why we're, we are really different.

因此，Snyk 可以发现并自动修复代码、开源依赖项、容器、基础设施和云配置中的漏洞，所有这些都以市场上最好的安全情报数据为基础，重点关注开发人员体验，这就是我们真正与众不同的原因。

It's also an amazingly fast-growing business with some stellar PLG-focused investors and board members from the likes of Ed Sim at boldstart to Tamar Yehoshua, Slack CPO.

这也是一项令人惊讶的快速增长业务，拥有一些专注于 PLG 的杰出投资者和董事会成员，例如 boldstart 的 Ed Sim 和 Slack 首席产品官 Tamar Yehoshua。

We were founded in 2015, last valuation after our Series F was at 8.6 billion.

我们成立于 2015 年，F 轮融资后的最新估值为 86 亿美元。

We're securing the software of millions of developers now, well over 2,000 paying customers, now around 1300 people of which are around 500 in R and D with nearly 70 folks in our product org.

我们现在正在保护数百万开发人员的软件，其中包括超过 2,000 名付费客户，现在约有 1300 人，其中约 500 人从事研发工作，其中近 70 人在我们的产品组织中。

And the people here just create this amazing culture, and all in all, it's just a really exciting place to be.

这里的人们创造了这种令人惊叹的文化，总而言之，这是一个非常令人兴奋的地方。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Did you have any sense it would get to this scale when you joined early on?

当您早期加入时，您是否意识到它会达到如此规模？

Ben Williams: Yes, I think because I wasn't looking for a new role when I ended up joining Snyk, when I was first approached by them, but everyone I spoke with along the interview process, just became more and more impressed with not only the caliber of people here, but the vision, the mission for the company, and all those things you mentioned in terms of PLG, community-led growth, focus on developers, the security space, these were all things that if you create a Venn diagram of all the things that I'm really interested in professionally, super interested in, super exciting to me, then kind of Snyk ended up in the middle of it.

Ben Williams：是的，我想是因为当我最终加入 Snyk 时，当他们第一次与我接触时，我并没有在寻找新职位，但在面试过程中与我交谈过的每个人都对这里的人的才干印象越来越深刻，而且对公司的愿景、使命以及您在 PLG、社区主导的增长、关注开发人员、安全空间方面提到的所有这些事情印象深刻，如果您创建一个包含我正在做的所有事情的维恩图，这些都是这些事情我对专业真的很感兴趣，超级感兴趣，对我来说非常兴奋，然后斯尼克就加入了其中。

So, it's pretty cool.

所以，这很酷。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

So, that's a good segue to where I wanted to start is how Snyk started and how Snyk got their first hundred users, and I know you weren't there necessarily for that, but I'm curious what you can share about how the founders found their first say a hundred users.

所以，这是我想开始的一个很好的话题，那就是 Snyk 是如何开始的，以及 Snyk 如何获得他们的第一批用户，我知道你不一定在那里，但我很好奇你能分享关于创始人如何找到他们的第一批一百名用户的内容。

How did they get to their initial developers and get people excited?

他们是如何找到最初的开发者并让人们兴奋的？

Ben Williams: I think it's a really fun story.

本·威廉姆斯：我认为这是一个非常有趣的故事。

So, if you don't mind, I'll just take a moment because I think it's important to set the stage by looking back at-

所以，如果你不介意的话，我会花一点时间，因为我认为通过回顾来奠定基础很重要-

Ben Williams: Yeah, just look back at the market in general.

本·威廉姆斯：是的，回顾一下整个市场。

So, PLG or bottom up and security, these were never words that were known to have been spoken together in a single sentence, right?

那么，PLG 或自下而上和安全性，这些从来都不是已知的在一个句子中一起说出的词，对吧？

So, security has always been a centralized function.

因此，安全性一直是一个中心化的功能。

Security programs were historically more about audit and policing and enforcement versus developer enablement or empowerment.

从历史上看，安全计划更多地涉及审计、监管和执行，而不是开发人员支持或授权。

A sales motion you saw it was always top down.

你看到的销售动作总是自上而下的。

It was seen as immovable, CISOs, other AppSec leaders with the buyers.

首席信息安全官 (CISO)、其他应用安全领导者和买家都认为它是不可动摇的。

Security tooling that was out there at the time, they all catered to this dynamic and these were tools that slowed developers down.

当时的安全工具都迎合了这种动态，而这些工具却拖慢了开发人员的速度。

They created a lot of frustration.

他们造成了很多挫败感。

They were met with a lot of resistance, not the ideal recipe really for consistent adoption and strong engagement and retention, and ultimately, app security programs based around those kind of solutions just weren't effective as they really needed to be.

它们遇到了很多阻力，这并不是真正实现一致采用、强烈参与和保留的理想方法，最终，基于此类解决方案的应用程序安全计划并没有达到真正需要的效果。

Ben Williams: So, it was a realization around this, timed with adjacent market shifts happening with DevOps that sparked the ideas behind Snyks.

Ben Williams：所以，正是围绕这一点的认识，与 DevOps 发生的相邻市场变化同步，激发了 Snyks 背后的想法。

So, the founders, Guy, Danny and Assaf, they saw a real opportunity just to do things differently.

因此，创始人盖伊、丹尼和阿萨夫看到了一个真正的机会，以不同的方式做事。

They believed that the most effective way to improve application security posture was a developer-first approach.

他们认为，改善应用程序安全状况的最有效方法是开发人员优先的方法。

They knew that the developers were increasingly caring about the security of their code in the same way that they cared about performance and functional quality of their code.

他们知道开发人员越来越关心代码的安全性，就像他们关心代码的性能和功能质量一样。

But they also knew that to empower developers to own that security, they needed just much better tools with way less friction than they ever had before.

但他们也知道，为了让开发人员能够拥有这种安全性，他们需要更好的工具，并且比以前的摩擦要少得多。

And their approach was, I think looking back, super smart, focus on a community.

回顾过去，我认为他们的方法非常聪明，专注于社区。

It wasn't the full extent of what we'd think of as community-led growth now, but it was close.

这并不是我们现在所认为的社区主导增长的全部范围，但也已经很接近了。

Ben Williams: They started with a really narrow, early focus.

本·威廉姆斯：他们一开始的关注点非常狭窄。

It was a single persona, single context, single use case, and what that meant for Snyk was developers building applications using Node.js who wanted to ensure that the open source dependencies they were pulling into their apps were secure.

它是单一角色、单一上下文、单一用例，这对 Snyk 来说意味着使用 Node.js 构建应用程序的开发人员希望确保他们拉入应用程序的开源依赖项是安全的。

Now, open source software, that's a huge accelerant in building modern software.

现在，开源软件是构建现代软件的巨大促进剂。

The average software application today is at least 75% of open source libraries and components.

如今，平均软件应用程序至少有 75% 是开源库和组件。

So, this was increasingly becoming a primary attack vector for malicious actors who could find a single vulnerability in an open source component and then find it and exploit it in every single application that was using that component.

因此，这日益成为恶意行为者的主要攻击媒介，他们可以在开源组件中找到单个漏洞，然后在使用该组件的每个应用程序中找到并利用它。

And at the same time, at least back then, open source software was much less tested for security vulnerabilities, and the maintainers of open source libraries were often less security aware.

与此同时，至少在当时，开源软件的安全漏洞测试要少得多，开源库的维护者往往缺乏安全意识。

So, you get that context, and then at the same time, Node.js as a run time was gaining traction.

因此，您获得了该上下文，然后与此同时，Node.js 作为运行时正在获得关注。

So, there was this increasing adoption in the enterprise, more and more dedicated conferences and the like, but the community was still small enough that Snyk could meaningfully influence, and Guy and the others just went all out on being deeply involved in that community.

因此，企业中的采用率越来越高，专门的会议等也越来越多，但社区仍然很小，Snyk 可以产生有意义的影响，而 Guy 和其他人只是全力以赴地深入参与该社区。

They were presenting at dev conferences, meetups, they were building online content and so on.

他们在开发者会议、聚会上进行演讲，他们正在构建在线内容等等。

And the question that they repeatedly posed to the community was do you have known vulnerabilities in your apps, and Snyk was there to help them answer that question.

他们反复向社区提出的问题是，您的应用程序中是否存在已知的漏洞，Snyk 可以帮助他们回答这个问题。

And fun kind of fact on the side, if you search for Snyk in the Urban Dictionary, you'll see it's an acronym for so now you know.

有趣的是，如果您在城市词典中搜索 Snyk，您会发现它是 so now you Know 的缩写。

But all of this kind of I think really only worked because of the parallel product-led approach.

但我认为所有这些真正有效只是因为并行产品主导的方法。

So, while the answer to the question about how does your product monetize users was much less clear cut in the early days for Snyk, the answer to the questions, how does your product acquire and retain users has always been product led.

因此，虽然 Snyk 早期关于产品如何通过用户获利的问题的答案不太明确，但产品如何获取和留住用户的问题的答案始终是产品主导的。

Ben Williams: And the initial version of Snyk, it was a command line tool.

Ben Williams：Snyk 的初始版本是一个命令行工具。

It was a tool for developers, it could be run locally or easily integrated into CICD pipelines for early feedback.

它是一个供开发人员使用的工具，可以在本地运行，也可以轻松集成到 CICD 管道中以获得早期反馈。

It allowed devs to assume more responsibility for the security of their apps, and that was just very different from the typical incumbent technologies that were run by security teams late in the dev process, long feedback loops, issues thrown over the walls, inevitably just frustrating developers.

它允许开发人员对其应用程序的安全性承担更多责任，这与安全团队在开发过程后期运行的典型现有技术非常不同，反馈周期长，问题抛出，不可避免地会让开发人员感到沮丧。

And all of this was just built on this fundamental belief that the only viable path, and by viable I really mean sustainably effective, the only sustainably effective path for software-centric organizations to meet the challenge of becoming and staying secure was for them to take this developer-led approach to that challenge.

所有这一切都建立在这样一个基本信念之上：对于以软件为中心的组织来说，应对变得和保持安全的挑战的唯一可行的途径，我所说的“可行”实际上是指可持续有效的途径，唯一可持续有效的途径就是采用这种由开发人员主导的方法来应对这一挑战。

So, really kind of complete disruption of the industry and developer adoption for that reason was always a key priority for us.

因此，真正彻底颠覆行业和开发人员的采用始终是我们的首要任务。

Ben Williams: So, with that in mind, Snyk has just been free to use in some capacity from day one, and the early strategy was always about creating something valuable that was readily available, something that solved a real problem in a uniquely differentiated way, and making it pervasive.

Ben Williams：因此，考虑到这一点，Snyk 从第一天起就可以自由地以某种方式使用，早期的策略始终是创造一些容易获得的有价值的东西，以一种独特的差异化方式解决实际问题的东西，并使其普及。

So, with dev-led option, this core concern, a freemium go-to-market strategy was just the obvious approach.

因此，对于开发者主导的选项，这个核心问题，免费增值的进入市场策略就是显而易见的方法。

So, eventually, getting back to your original question, that's all of the context and where and when and how they did it, but the first hundred or so users really just came from the founders engaging with the Node.js community and the interest that drove.

所以，最终，回到你最初的问题，这就是他们的所有背景、地点、时间和方式，但前一百左右的用户实际上只是来自与 Node.js 社区互动的创始人以及由此产生的兴趣。

I think we probably had maybe around 5,000 free users before there are any attempts at monetization.

我认为在尝试货币化之前我们可能拥有大约 5,000 名免费用户。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

There's a bunch I want to unpack there because what's interesting the way you describe it maps to the series that I recently wrote about consumer growth strategy and how the first three steps after you have an idea is to come up with your super specific who, kind of your target persona, come up with a hook that catches them and gets them excited, and then go find them where they are and pitch them your hook.

我想在那里解开很多东西，因为你描述它的方式很有趣，它映射到我最近写的关于消费者增长策略的系列，以及在你有了一个想法之后的前三个步骤是如何想出你的超级具体的谁，你的目标角色，想出一个吸引他们并让他们兴奋的钩子，然后去找到他们所在的地方并向他们推销你的钩子。

So, the super specific who for Snyk was you said open source developers working on Node.js.

所以，Snyk 的超级具体是谁是您所说的从事 Node.js 工作的开源开发人员。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Ben Williams: Well, it was Node.js developers, and Node.js developers were building their applications using open source Node components.

Ben Williams：嗯，是 Node.js 开发人员，Node.js 开发人员正在使用开源 Node 组件构建他们的应用程序。

Lenny: Mm-hmm.

莱尼：嗯嗯。

Got it.

知道了。

Was there any other constraint to that, do you know, or those were the two to three attributes of a user?

您知道吗，是否还有其他限制，或者用户的两到三个属性？

Ben Williams: That's really it.

本·威廉姆斯：确实是这样。

The community was growing for sure.

社区确实在成长。

It was big enough to have a decent opportunity there-

它足够大，在那里有一个不错的机会-

Ben Williams: ...

本·威廉姆斯：...

but narrow enough that technology wise, it meant that a product could be brought to market in a reasonable time.

但就技术而言，它的范围足够窄，这意味着产品可以在合理的时间内推向市场。

Lenny: Yeah, that's great.

莱尼：是的，那太好了。

And then the hook was basically you have known vulnerabilities in your code base which if I were an engineer, like, "I don't know, shoot, I don't know.

然后，问题基本上是你的代码库中存在已知的漏洞，如果我是一名工程师，就像，“我不知道，射击，我不知道。

Get a find exactly.

准确地找到一个。

I'm scared now."

我现在很害怕。”

Ben Williams: Exactly.

本·威廉姆斯：没错。

And then so now you know.

然后现在你知道了。

Right?

正确的？

Lenny: Yeah, exactly.

莱尼：是的，完全正确。

Okay, cool.

好吧，酷。

And then the where, so you said that they went to open source communities.

然后是哪里，所以你说他们去了开源社区。

Do you have any more specifics about what those were?

您有关于这些内容的更多具体信息吗？

Was it like a specific forum?

它像一个特定的论坛吗？

Was it like GitHub somewhere?

是不是像 GitHub 一样？

Was it Reddit?

是 Reddit 吗？

Do you know any idea where those communities lived?

你知道那些社区住在哪里吗？

Ben Williams: Yeah, it was less about a particular place, but more about the community of developers themselves who focused on Node.js.

Ben Williams：是的，这不是关于某个特定的地方，而是更多关于专注于 Node.js 的开发人员本身的社区。

So, a bunch of early evangelism was really at conferences.

所以，早期的传福音实际上是在会议上进行的。

It was I think the Velocity Conference in Amsterdam where Guy and Assaf kind of first unveiled Snyk to the world, and yeah, it went from there.

我认为是在阿姆斯特丹的 Velocity 会议上，Guy 和 Assaf 第一次向世界展示了 Snyk，是的，它就是从那里开始的。

Lenny: I see.

莱尼：我明白了。

Interesting.

有趣的。

So, it was in-person events, conferences, and meetups probably focused on Node.js developers.

因此，现场活动、会议和聚会可能主要针对 Node.js 开发人员。

Lenny: Okay, awesome.

莱尼：好的，太棒了。

What happened after that?

之后发生了什么？

So, that was the first hundred.

所以，这是前一百个。

Was it just roughly the next stage of growth or did it focus on that for a long time?

这只是大致的下一阶段增长还是长期以来一直专注于此？

What was the next stage roughly?

下一阶段大致是什么？

Ben Williams: Yeah.

本·威廉姆斯：是的。

I think that focus was the really important kind of element there, if I can kind of latch on that.

我认为，如果我能抓住这一点，那么专注是真正重要的元素。

Starting with that narrow focus and building around community engagement, I think it's a well-proven playbook now, particularly in the developer tooling space like New Relic did it notably with Ruby community for example.

从狭隘的关注点开始，围绕社区参与构建，我认为它现在是一本经过充分验证的手册，特别是在像 New Relic 这样的开发人员工具领域，例如在 Ruby 社区中就做到了这一点。

But ultimately it was important because of this kind of depth verse breadth approach and that depth-first approach that Snyk took was important to be able to effectively validate the solution on the path to product market fit.

但最终它很重要，因为这种深度与广度的方法以及 Snyk 采取的深度优先方法对于能够有效验证产品市场契合路径上的解决方案非常重要。

A JavaScript developer just won't care if you support Golang or Rust, but will absolutely care if a key feature like automated package upgrades just isn't available for their ecosystem.

JavaScript 开发人员不会关心你是否支持 Golang 还是 Rust，但绝对会关心他们的生态系统是否无法使用自动包升级等关键功能。

Ben Williams: Of course, the bigger problem of vulnerable components in open source across all languages and all ecosystems, that's a very widespread problem.

Ben Williams：当然，所有语言和所有生态系统中的开源组件存在更大的问题，这是一个非常普遍的问题。

It affects the industry at large, but that just spoke to the potential opportunity that was there to be unlocked.

它影响了整个行业，但这只是说明了潜在的机会有待释放。

But the key for Snyk I think was just not to go too wide, too early.

但我认为斯尼克的关键是不要走得太宽、太早。

So, it focused on nailing that initial use case for that specific community of Node.js devs, like I say, narrow enough to be able to really focus on quickly building a compelling solution to a real problem, but also wide enough to be something viable from a growth perspective.

因此，它的重点是为 Node.js 开发者的特定社区确定初始用例，就像我说的那样，范围足够窄，能够真正专注于快速构建针对实际问题的引人注目的解决方案，但也足够广泛，从增长的角度来看是可行的。

And even back then the NPM, the Node Package Manager hosted around 200,000 open source packages.

即使在当时的 NPM（节点包管理器）也托管着大约 200,000 个开源包。

They were downloaded something like two and a half billion times a month by over 2 million devs.

它们每月被超过 200 万开发者下载大约二十五亿次。

And the typical node app would have hundreds of dependencies, mostly indirect and so hidden less immediately visible.

典型的节点应用程序将具有数百个依赖项，其中大部分是间接的，因此隐藏得不太明显。

But each of those dependencies brought with it some security risks.

但这些依赖项中的每一个都带来了一些安全风险。

So, yeah, I think nailing that narrow and deep-use case before expanding wider was absolutely critical and generally just sound advice around finding product market fit and building solid momentum before casting a wider net.

所以，是的，我认为在扩大范围之前确定狭窄和深入的用例绝对是至关重要的，并且通常只是在撒下更广泛的网络之前寻找产品市场契合度和建立坚实动力的合理建议。

It's difficult to maintain that focus for sure as the lure of that bigger term can be really tempting, but ultimately you have to build a service and market well to capture it.

确实很难保持这种专注，因为更大的术语的诱惑确实很诱人，但最终你必须建立良好的服务和市场才能抓住它。

Lenny: Do you have a sense of when that focus expanded to an adjacent group, how many years into the growth story that happened, or was there some kind of milestone there?

莱尼：你是否知道这种关注何时扩展到相邻群体，发生了多少年的成长故事，或者那里是否有某种里程碑？

Because I know everyone imagines, yeah, we'll expand, the question is when and when does it make sense and when is it too early.

因为我知道每个人都想象，是的，我们会扩张，问题是何时、何时有意义，何时为时过早。

Do you have any insights into that phase?

您对那个阶段有什么见解吗？

Ben Williams: Yeah, for sure.

本·威廉姆斯：是的，当然。

First, I think if we're talking about PLG and the story with Snyk, I actually like that definition of product-led acquisition from Julian Shapiro when you spoke with him, and beyond that maniacal focus on finding product market fit for your product, founders really should be thinking about how their product is going to grow, and that's important of course as you think about taking that next step.

首先，我认为如果我们谈论 PLG 和 Snyk 的故事，我实际上很喜欢 Julian Shapiro 在与 Julian Shapiro 交谈时对产品主导型收购的定义，除了疯狂地专注于寻找适合你的产品的产品市场之外，创始人确实应该考虑他们的产品将如何增长，当然，当你考虑采取下一步时，这很重要。

So, let's assume in a simplistic definition that you found product market fit as demonstrated by a strong retention, and then the real question is where are the new users for your product going to come from, and founders really should have, I think, strong hypothesis around this, your risk essentially, adopting an if we build it, they'll come approach.

因此，让我们用一个简单的定义来假设，你发现产品市场适合度，如强大的保留率所证明的那样，然后真正的问题是你的产品的新用户将从哪里来，我认为创始人确实应该对此有强有力的假设，你的风险本质上是，采用“如果我们构建它，他们就会来”的方法。

Ben Williams: So, if your acquisition strategy is product- led, then understanding and being intentional about your early acquisition growth loops I think is an essential founder's responsibility.

本·威廉姆斯：所以，如果你的收购策略是以产品为主导的，那么我认为理解并有意了解你的早期收购增长循环是创始人的基本责任。

Dedicating time there to design those loops into the product, it's key.

花时间将这些循环设计到产品中，这是关键。

And when I say product, I really mean the whole product experience considering every touchpoint in and out of the core application that your users and customers might have with you.

当我说产品时，我真正指的是整个产品体验，考虑到您的用户和客户可能与您接触的核心应用程序内外的每个接触点。

Snyk, for example, believed very early that we could build out powerful content loops via fixed pull requests that we raise on GitHub.

例如，Snyk 很早就相信我们可以通过在 GitHub 上提出的固定拉取请求来构建强大的内容循环。

New users, they'll sign up for Snyk, they'll connect their GitHub accounts, Snyk will scan their code, will find vulnerabilities, will automatically create Snyk-branded pull requests to fix those vulnerabilities.

新用户，他们将注册 Snyk，他们将连接他们的 GitHub 帐户，Snyk 将扫描他们的代码，将发现漏洞，将自动创建 Snyk 品牌的拉取请求来修复这些漏洞。

Other devs in the repo will see and interact with those PRs, and some of them will follow links to Snyk, create accounts and some of them will connect their own repos, and so the loop continues.

存储库中的其他开发人员将看到这些 PR 并与之交互，其中一些人将跟踪 Snyk 的链接，创建帐户，其中一些人将连接自己的存储库，这样循环就会继续。

So, company generated, company distributed content loop, it's actually really powerful for us because it's both an acquisition loop and an engagement loop.

因此，公司生成、公司分发的内容循环对我们来说实际上非常强大，因为它既是获取循环又是参与循环。

Ben Williams: Over the course of time, we extended that loop by adding support for other source controlled systems beyond GitHub.

Ben Williams：随着时间的推移，我们通过添加对 GitHub 之外的其他源代码控制系统的支持来扩展该循环。

We layered on a bunch of new loops, and I think if founders can be intentional about this as you're developing early product iterations, then you're going to have a bigger advantage when the product clicks with the market, and that was built into Snyk as we went along.

我们建立了一系列新的循环，我认为如果创始人在开发早期产品迭代时能够有意识地考虑这一点，那么当产品迎合市场时，你将拥有更大的优势，而这在我们的发展过程中已内置于 Snyk 中。

So, that was kind of ready as we found product market fit.

所以，当我们发现产品适合市场时，这就已经准备好了。

But I think to talk about specifically how Snyk took that next stage, it was a function of when we were chatting before this, we talked a little bit about some of the failed experiences spinning up a self-serve revenue channel, and-

但我想具体谈谈 Snyk 如何进入下一阶段，这是我们之前聊天时的一个功能，我们谈论了一些建立自助收入渠道的失败经历，并且 -

Lenny: Actually before we get there, which I definitely want to get into all that, I love this story you just shared.

莱尼：实际上，在我们到达那里之前，我确实想深入了解所有这些，我喜欢你刚刚分享的这个故事。

I hadn't heard of this growth tactic of basically they connect their GitHub account, you find all the vulnerabilities, push a fix, people see that Snyk did this for them and it just provides all this value, and you're saying that was really effective.

我没有听说过这种增长策略，基本上他们连接他们的 GitHub 帐户，你找到所有漏洞，推送修复，人们看到 Snyk 为他们做了这件事，它只是提供了所有这些价值，你说这真的很有效。

It's an example of something that worked very well.

这是一个非常有效的例子。

Ben Williams: First of all, that integration in terms of connecting your code with security scanning like that was a first of a kind integration.

Ben Williams：首先，将代码与安全扫描连接起来的集成是同类集成中的第一个。

Ben Williams: No one had done that before.

本·威廉姆斯：以前没有人这样做过。

But the key was that we ultimately controlled the content.

但关键是我们最终控制了内容。

So, not only was the fixed pull request doing something useful in terms of the code, but all of the description of the pull request was explaining about the vulnerability, educating users, and it was all Snyk branded and saying, "If you find this useful, click here, come and learn more about the vulnerability.

因此，固定拉取请求不仅在代码方面做了一些有用的事情，而且拉取请求的所有描述都在解释漏洞、教育用户，而且都是 Snyk 品牌，并说：“如果您发现这有用，请单击此处，来了解有关该漏洞的更多信息。

Sign up for an account if you don't have one." It kept existing users coming back.

如果您没有帐户，请注册一个帐户。”它让现有用户不断回头。

PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:23:04]

4 部分第 1 部分结束 [00:23:04]

Ben Williams: You sign up for an account if you don't have one, it kept existing users coming back and it brings new users, a lot of new users, in fact.

Ben Williams：如果你没有帐户，你就注册一个帐户，它可以让现有用户回来，并带来新用户，事实上，很多新用户。

Lenny: You'd be in there all like, "Do you have known vulnerabilities in your code base?

Lenny：你们会说，“你们的代码库中是否存在已知的漏洞？

Click here to find out." Is that responsible for much of the early growth, that loop?

点击此处了解详情。”那个循环是早期增长的大部分原因吗？

Ben Williams: I think that was one of the loops.

本·威廉姆斯：我认为这是循环之一。

We also have a couple of, from fairly early on as well, other content loops that are more kind of programmatic SEO assets that have both been pretty instrumental in terms of new user growth, yeah.

从很早开始，我们还有一些其他内容循环，它们更像是程序化的 SEO 资产，它们在新用户增长方面都非常有帮助，是的。

Lenny: It'd be cool to hear about those if they're relatively straightforward to explain, and then we can get to the thing that didn't work, the self-serve monetization piece you were going to get to.

莱尼：如果能相对简单地解释这些内容，那就太好了，然后我们就可以讨论不起作用的事情，即您将要讨论的自助货币化部分。

Ben Williams: We have a bunch of loops actually at this point to start off.

Ben Williams：此时我们实际上有一堆循环要开始。

Ben Williams: Yeah, I'm a big loopist, funnily enough.

本·威廉姆斯：是的，有趣的是，我是个大循环者。

But yeah, we have a bunch of loops.

但是，是的，我们有很多循环。

Company generated, company distributed content loops have actually worked really well for us.

公司生成、公司分发的内容循环实际上对我们来说非常有效。

We have a side car product called Snyk Advisor.

我们有一款边车产品，名为 Snyk Advisor。

Snyk Advisor, it's basically a service that developers use to search and find open source packages when they're considering integrating some within their software applications.

Snyk Advisor，它基本上是开发人员在考虑将某些开源软件包集成到其软件应用程序中时用来搜索和查找开源软件包的一项服务。

The unique thing about it is it indexes all of the package managers.

它的独特之处在于它索引了所有包管理器。

It learns about those packages.

它了解这些包。

It augments the data about them with a bunch of metadata, including of course Snyk security scans, but we also find out how actively maintained the software is on the source repo on GitHub or wherever.

它通过大量元数据来增强有关它们的数据，当然包括 Snyk 安全扫描，但我们还可以了解该软件在 GitHub 或其他地方的源存储库上的维护情况如何。

Ben Williams: We build this kind of package health score, so anyone searching on Google for a package that does X, Y, Z or a specific package by name, Snyk Advisor will be right up there in terms of the search results.

Ben Williams：我们建立了这种软件包健康评分，因此任何在 Google 上搜索执行 X、Y、Z 的软件包或按名称查找特定软件包的人，Snyk Advisor 都会出现在搜索结果中。

They'll land on there, they'll get a good idea about that package, they can look at similar packages and it's all, of course, a Snyk website and we have CTAs to say, "If you want to secure your application on a perpetual basis, then just come and join us." That's a great loop.

他们会登陆那里，他们会对该软件包有一个很好的了解，他们可以查看类似的软件包，当然，这都是 Snyk 网站，我们有 CTA 说，“如果您想永久保护您的应用程序，那么就来加入我们吧。”这是一个很棒的循环。

That's all kind of a programmatic asset.

这都是一种程序化资产。

There are hundreds of thousands of these package pages, but they're just automatically being generated continuously.

这些包页面有数十万个，但它们只是连续自动生成的。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

It's programmatically generated better indexing of open source libraries that you can integrate with.

它以编程方式生成更好的开源库索引，您可以与之集成。

That is so smart.

那真是太聪明了。

It's programmatic because you can inform on the security vulnerabilities and then the maintenance and activity.

它是程序化的，因为您可以告知安全漏洞，然后告知维护和活动。

Interesting.

有趣的。

Yeah, that makes sense.

是的，这是有道理的。

That's all data you could just gather.

这就是您可以收集的所有数据。

That's awesome.

太棒了。

Okay, so there's that.

好的，就是这样。

Is there anything else that's worked really well for you guys to help you grow self-serve?

还有其他什么东西对你们来说非常有效，可以帮助你们发展自助服务吗？

Ben Williams: One of the recent ones that's really interesting is security education.

本·威廉姆斯：最近非常有趣的一项是安全教育。

We think of Snyk as a change agent in helping DevSecOps transformations and it's fine kind of having this capability, but what we really want to get to is this position where developers truly understand and can be better placed to prevent security vulnerabilities being injected into their code.

我们认为 Snyk 是帮助 DevSecOps 转型的变革推动者，拥有这种能力很好，但我们真正想要达到的目标是让开发人员真正理解并能够更好地防止安全漏洞被注入到他们的代码中。

One of the things that is, again, something that's pretty different from the industry from an incumbent perspective is that we believe it's really important to democratize security education.

从现有的角度来看，与行业截然不同的一件事是，我们相信安全教育的民主化非常重要。

Ben Williams: We have been building this bunch of really high quality but bite size lessons about developer security that focus on developers about security issues and vulnerabilities and we surface them.

Ben Williams：我们一直在构建这一系列关于开发人员安全的高质量但规模较小的课程，重点关注开发人员的安全问题和漏洞，然后我们将它们呈现出来。

Again, they're out there in the public domain.

再说一次，它们是在公共领域的。

There's no paywall to get access to those.

没有付费墙可以访问这些内容。

All the traditional solutions you need to sign up, you need to pay to get access beyond more than a couple.

您需要注册的所有传统解决方案都需要付费才能获得超过几个的访问权限。

But these were just, they're all out there in the public domain.

但这些只是，它们都在公共领域。

That works really well for us from a company generated company distributed loop as well.

从公司生成的公司分布式循环中，这对我们来说也非常有效。

Lenny: So cool.

莱尼：太酷了。

SEO and then integrating to GitHub in an interesting way.

SEO，然后以一种有趣的方式集成到 GitHub。

Imagine there's also a lot of intra-company virality when someone uses Snyk at a company and they spread it to their colleagues?

想象一下，当有人在公司使用 Snyk 并将其传播给同事时，会在公司内部产生大量病毒式传播吗？

Ben Williams: Yeah, I mean, I didn't talk about those.

本·威廉姆斯：是的，我的意思是，我没有谈论这些。

I think those are pretty well understood.

我认为这些都很好理解。

We have both referral loops and invite loops as well.

我们也有推荐循环和邀请循环。

Lenny: Okay, awesome.

莱尼：好的，太棒了。

Coming back to what didn't work, and I think you mentioned that there was a monetization attempt that was self-service oriented and that had some challenges.

回到那些行不通的地方，我想你提到过有一个面向自助服务的货币化尝试，但遇到了一些挑战。

Can you talk about that?

你能谈谈吗？

Ben Williams: At the time, a few things were in place.

本·威廉姆斯：当时，有一些事情已经就位。

Valuable product, check, strong developer user growth, check, strong retention, check, but the first self-serve monetization efforts only really saw traction with individual developers paying a hundred dollars a month.

有价值的产品，检查，强劲的开发者用户增长，检查，强大的保留率，检查，但第一个自助货币化努力只有个人开发者每月支付一百美元才能真正看到吸引力。

Or purchases in larger companies, they just didn't happen as everyone had hoped.

或者在大公司进行收购，但它们并没有像每个人所希望的那样发生。

There was a really critical part of Snyk's history.

斯尼克的历史中有一个非常关键的部分。

At the time a bunch of investors didn't lean in, perhaps shy away from early conviction with the founders on building strong usage without a proven path to monetization at that point.

当时，一群投资者并没有介入，也许是回避了创始人的早期信念，即在没有经过验证的货币化路径的情况下建立强大的使用率。

Ed at BOLDStart who I mentioned previously, he was one of the first kind of true believers and was I think really key in helping with providing runway during that time.

我之前提到过 BOLDStart 的 Ed，他是第一批真正的信徒之一，我认为他是在那段时间帮助提供跑道的真正关键。

But it was clear that there was a lot of work still to do.

但显然还有很多工作要做。

The team dived in, they really figured out what the constraints were and through that process really learned about the importance of catering for the broader governance needs of the enterprise buyer.

团队深入研究，他们真正弄清楚了限制是什么，并通过这个过程真正了解了满足企业买家更广泛的治理需求的重要性。

Ben Williams: And that meant a couple of things.

本·威廉姆斯：这意味着几件事。

First, there was a need to build out table stakes features around governance at scale.

首先，需要围绕大规模治理构建赌注功能。

Just things that companies of a certain scale and size expected reporting, robust user management and so on.

只是具有一定规模和规模的公司所期望的报告、强大的用户管理等等。

And second that it was time to move beyond that depth first approach, right?

其次，是时候超越深度优先方法了，对吗？

That depth first approach was absolutely critical in getting to that point, but it wasn't good enough to take the next step.

这种深度优先的方法对于达到这一点绝对至关重要，但它还不足以采取下一步。

If you think about it, there's a point in a company scale where you start to see diversification of tech stacks and all of those tech stacks need securing.

如果您考虑一下，在公司规模中存在一个点，您开始看到技术堆栈的多样化，并且所有这些技术堆栈都需要保护。

It's obvious in retrospect that only supporting developers using a narrow slice of those tech stacks wasn't going to meet the needs of the security teams who were ultimately the people who were held accountable for the security of their entire application estate.

回想起来，很明显，仅支持使用这些技术堆栈中一小部分的开发人员并不能满足安全团队的需求，安全团队最终是负责整个应用程序资产安全的人员。

The teams worked hard over the next few months starting to build support for additional languages and ecosystems and adding those table stakes features.

在接下来的几个月里，团队努力工作，开始构建对其他语言和生态系统的支持，并添加这些赌注功能。

Ben Williams: I think back then Snyk were simply ahead of this inevitable curve of developer first security.

Ben Williams：我认为当时 Snyk 完全走在了开发者优先安全这条不可避免的曲线前面。

At the time, the only buyers were security teams and dev first Security for the most part wasn't something that CISOs and ApSec leaders were driving.

当时，唯一的买家是安全团队和开发第一安全在很大程度上不是 CISO 和 ApSec 领导者所推动的。

But if you look at Snyk through that lens of, as I mentioned, being a change agent, being a key piece of the transformational journey of our customers' DevSecOps journeys, you realize how important it was for us to start to build relationships with those security leaders.

但是，如果您从这个角度来看待 Snyk，正如我提到的，作为变革推动者，作为客户 DevSecOps 转型之旅的关键部分，您就会意识到开始与这些安全领导者建立关系对我们来说是多么重要。

It was that time also that it was the right time to bring in the first sales and engineering hires as well.

正是在这个时候，也是引进第一批销售和工程人员的最佳时机。

Lenny: You basically found it couldn't work self-serve, independent of sales being involved in convincing the folks at the top, which makes sense.

莱尼：你基本上发现它无法自助服务，独立于销售人员参与说服高层人员，这是有道理的。

How do you trust a company with your security if the people at the top responsible for security aren't bought in?

如果负责安全的最高层人员不相信公司的安全，你如何信任一家公司的安全？

Makes sense.

有道理。

Ben Williams: Today it's less like that.

本·威廉姆斯：今天情况已不再那样了。

There are organizations where the buying center is still very much ApSec, but there are also many organizations where kind of technical leaders on the buying decision around security investments.

有些组织的购买中心仍然主要是 ApSec，但也有许多组织的技术领导者负责围绕安全投资的购买决策。

What was always true though even back then was the influencing power of developers, regardless of where the buying center was.

即使在当时，开发商的影响力始终是事实，无论购买中心在哪里。

Lenny: And I imagine as the brand has grown, it's gotten easier to convince people like, "Oh yeah, look at all these other logos using this.

莱尼：我想随着品牌的发展，它会更容易说服人们，“哦，是的，看看所有其他使用这个的标志。

It's probably going to be okay."

可能会没事的。”

Lenny: Just to understand in your experience with Snyk, it never really worked self-served monetization.

Lenny：根据您在 Snyk 的经历，我想说的是，它从来没有真正发挥过自助货币化的作用。

It worked as a way to get into a company and then developers started using it in small scale, but you needed sales and marketing to really grow monetization.

它是进入公司的一种方式，然后开发人员开始小规模使用它，但你需要销售和营销才能真正增加盈利。

Is that what you found?

这是你发现的吗？

Ben Williams: I think back then, yes.

本·威廉姆斯：我想当时是的。

Now it's a very different story.

现在情况完全不同了。

We have a lot of self-serve only customers scaling pretty large, so.

我们有很多只提供自助服务的客户，规模相当大，所以。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

That's interesting.

那很有意思。

I rarely hear that you start out with sales being important and it becomes less important or I imagine it's still very important, but there's like a segment that has emerged that can self-serve.

我很少听说你一开始就认为销售很重要，然后它变得不那么重要，或者我认为它仍然非常重要，但是已经出现了一个可以自助服务的细分市场。

Fascinating.

迷人。

Ben Williams: Yeah, I think it is important to acknowledge though, that the product has always played a really key part in the sales process for sure.

本·威廉姆斯：是的，我认为重要的是要承认，产品在销售过程中一直发挥着非常关键的作用。

Lenny: That touches on something I wanted to ask.

莱尼：这涉及到我想问的事情。

you've mentioned him a couple times, he's got this awesome newsletter, he talks about you guys all the time.

你已经提到过他好几次了，他有一份很棒的时事通讯，他一直在谈论你们。

I think he's very proud of the progress of Snyk and he talks a lot about that for developers, you got to win hearts and minds of developers to build something that works.

我认为他对 Snyk 的进步感到非常自豪，他对开发人员谈论了很多，你必须赢得开发人员的心才能构建出有用的东西。

Any lessons or pieces of advice for folks that are targeting developers to win hearts and minds and get engineers, developers excited about what you're building?

对于那些以开发人员赢得人心并让工程师和开发人员对您正在构建的东西感到兴奋的人来说，有什么经验教训或建议吗？

Ben Williams: I think there's two things, right?

本·威廉姆斯：我认为有两件事，对吧？

First of all, fundamentally for someone to get excited about using a product, they've got to care enough, right?

首先，从根本上来说，要让人们对使用产品感到兴奋，他们必须足够关心，对吗？

They've got to have a problem that you're solving.

他们必须有一个你正在解决的问题。

I think there's two things.

我认为有两件事。

One, there is a shift that is happening and still happening.

第一，一种转变正在发生并且仍在发生。

I think there's still a long way to go for developers to really care about security as an integral part of their job in the same way they think about functional quality or performance.

我认为，开发人员要像考虑功能质量或性能一样真正关心安全性并将其作为其工作的一个组成部分，还有很长的路要走。

I think that we're still, we're making strong progress there.

我认为我们仍然在这方面取得了巨大进展。

It's changing all the time, but there's still a long way to go there.

它一直在变化，但还有很长的路要走。

But the reality is that I think in most companies, developers have to care about security because their companies need to be secure.

但现实是，我认为在大多数公司中，开发人员必须关心安全性，因为他们的公司需要安全。

The key then is how do I make the job of being secure for these developers, as painless as it absolutely needs to be?

那么关键是我如何确保这些开发人员的安全，并且尽可能轻松地完成？

Ben Williams: And that means really meeting them where they are, integrating with their tools, finding ways to take security to them instead of trying to pull them out of their workflows.

Ben Williams：这意味着真正满足他们的需求，与他们的工具集成，找到确保他们安全的方法，而不是试图将他们从工作流程中拉出来。

Flow is just this incredibly important concept for developers and you want to strive to keep them in that flow for as long as possible.

对于开发人员来说，心流是一个非常重要的概念，您希望努力让他们尽可能长时间地保持在这种心流中。

The GitHub kind of pool requests are a great example of that.

GitHub 类型的池请求就是一个很好的例子。

Someone can sign up for Snyk and they could theoretically be the only user of Snyk and connect their repos.

有人可以注册 Snyk，理论上他们可以成为 Snyk 的唯一用户并连接他们的存储库。

All of a sudden we're protecting, securing those repos, a hundred, a thousand developers could be working in GitHub with that code, all benefiting from Snyk without necessarily needing to sign up.

突然间，我们正在保护这些存储库，一百、一千名开发人员可以在 GitHub 上使用该代码工作，所有人都可以从 Snyk 中受益，而无需注册。

That's that example of taking the product to users without pulling them out of their workflows.

这就是将产品带给用户而不将他们从工作流程中拉出来的例子。

I think that's absolutely critical.

我认为这绝对至关重要。

Lenny: As an outsider hearing all this, it's a product that magically helps you avoid security issues, very little work, does a lot of the work for you.

Lenny：作为一个局外人听到这一切，这是一个可以神奇地帮助您避免安全问题的产品，只需很少的工作，就能为您完成很多工作。

It's hard to imagine it not working looking at it now, and I'm curious what it was about the early days that just felt like maybe that people didn't believe in this working.

现在看它很难想象它不起作用，我很好奇早期人们为什么不相信它起作用。

Is it just there was doubt that it would be smart enough to find your security vulnerability issues?

是否只是怀疑它是否足够智能来发现您的安全漏洞问题？

Was it the timing wasn't right, people weren't ready, weren't concerned about security enough?

是不是时机不对，人们还没有准备好，对安全的关注不够？

What do you think it was that created challenges early on?

您认为早期带来挑战的是什么？

Because looking back, it's like, of course this is going to work.

因为回想起来，这当然会起作用。

How could it not?

怎么可能不呢？

It sounds just like a magical all win product.

这听起来就像一个神奇的全赢产品。

Ben Williams: First of all, don't think the challenges were there in terms of the developer adoption.

Ben Williams：首先，不要认为在开发人员采用方面存在挑战。

Even when those first kind of forays into self-serve were struggling in terms of breaking into some of the larger customers.

即使那些最初尝试自助服务的公司在打入一些大客户方面也遇到了困难。

The developer adoption, the free user base was still growing at a really good pace.

开发人员的采用率、免费用户群仍在以非常好的速度增长。

That momentum was just constantly building and it's that momentum that has ultimately fueled the sales led business as we've gone through the years.

这种势头不断增强，多年来，正是这种势头最终推动了以销售为主导的业务。

But it was just those few things I think that I mentioned earlier in terms of stumbling blocks that needed to be overcome because when those first sales and marketing hires did join us and we started having conversations and we also tweaked some of the things in the product to meet, had some breadth, had some additional languages, ecosystems, building those table stakes features, then it really unlocked and it was rocket ship time from then.

但我认为我之前提到的一些需要克服的绊脚石是因为当第一批销售和营销人员加入我们时，我们开始进行对话，我们还调整了产品中的一些内容以满足需求，有一些广度，有一些额外的语言、生态系统，构建了这些赌注功能，然后它就真正解锁了，从那时起就是火箭时代。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

Sounds like the biggest issue is monetization.

听起来最大的问题是货币化。

Can we make money doing this?

我们这样做能赚钱吗？

Developers love it, they're using it like crazy, but will people be convinced to scale this an inside an organization and pay us a bunch of money for it?

开发人员喜欢它，他们疯狂地使用它，但是人们会被说服在组织内部扩展它并为此付给我们一大笔钱吗？

Lenny: Okay, got it.

莱尼：好的，明白了。

I want to dive a little bit deeper into your growth team and product team and how you think about organizing teams like that in a product led growth sales org.

我想更深入地了解您的增长团队和产品团队，以及您如何考虑在产品主导的增长销售组织中组织这样的团队。

The first question, just how did the growth team start at Snyk?

第一个问题，Snyk 的增长团队是如何开始的？

What was kind of the early days and then what does it look like today?

早期是什么样子，现在又是什么样子？

Ben Williams: There were some ad hoc efforts happening in various places.

本·威廉姆斯：各地都在开展一些临时工作。

We had a small growth marketing function, we had .

我们有一个小型的增长营销职能，我们有。

We also had some ownership of key growth services in R&D.

我们还拥有研发领域关键增长服务的部分所有权。

There was a team that owned the new user onboarding flows, for example.

例如，有一个团队负责新用户引导流程。

But it wasn't until I joined that we really formalized the notion of a growth team.

但直到我加入后，我们才真正正式确立了增长团队的概念。

It was very kind of ad hoc before then.

在那之前这是非常临时的。

When I joined, we created what we call the developer growth group now.

当我加入时，我们创建了现在所谓的开发人员成长小组。

Before then there maybe wasn't strong an understanding about what a growth team needs to look like, how they might need to work differently to the core product teams.

在此之前，人们可能对增长团队需要是什么样子，以及他们可能需要如何与核心产品团队以不同的方式工作没有深入的了解。

And I'd say overall it was much later than you'd typically expect to see.

我想说，总的来说，这比你通常预期的要晚得多。

And at a bigger scale.

而且规模更大。

You normally are going to start growth teams, one or two people, three or four maybe, and scale out from there.

您通常会组建增长团队，一两个人，也许三四个人，然后从那里扩展。

But we started much bigger than that.

但我们的起步远不止于此。

But at the same time, this bottom up developer first approach, it was baked into the company DNA in terms of how teams think and operate.

但与此同时，这种自下而上的开发人员优先的方法，在团队思考和运营方式方面已融入公司 DNA。

Yeah, we were growing fast even before we spun up the growth group.

是的，甚至在我们组建增长团队之前，我们就已经在快速增长了。

I think the significant change that happened there, it was a transition from a simple freemium approach to a holistic and well-coordinated PLG strategy.

我认为那里发生的重大变化是从简单的免费增值方法到整体且协调良好的 PLG 策略的转变。

It's much more common to start earlier, much more common to start at a smaller scale than we did at Snyk, but it worked for us because of this kind of perfect storm of where we had a product with that bottom up growth built in from the beginning.

与我们在 Snyk 相比，更早开始、从小规模开始更常见，但这对我们来说很有效，因为我们的产品从一开始就内置了自下而上的增长。

We had founders with a deep appreciation for how the product could grow and there was strongly exec alignment and sponsorship for scaling the motion.

我们的创始人对产品如何发展有着深刻的理解，并且有强烈的执行协调和赞助来扩大该动议。

The problem when starting the growth group, it was really for the most part more oriented to how we can get the flywheel spinning faster as opposed to getting it moving in the first place.

启动增长小组时的问题，实际上在很大程度上更注重如何让飞轮旋转得更快，而不是首先让它移动。

Lenny: Where did you initially focus that team?

Lenny：您最初将团队的重点放在哪里？

Which part of the flywheel?

飞轮是哪个部分？

Ben Williams: Right now we have dedicated teams focused on acquisition, activation and monetization along with a supporting team who own our growth platform, including all of our data and experimentation stack.

Ben Williams：现在我们有专门的团队专注于获取、激活和货币化，还有一个支持团队，他们拥有我们的增长平台，包括我们所有的数据和实验堆栈。

But the macro structure, it's changed over time to enable us to focus on the biggest constraints in our growth model.

但宏观结构随着时间的推移而发生变化，使我们能够专注于增长模式中最大的限制。

At the beginning we just focused on acquisition and activation, intentionally deferring any investment into specific monetization initiatives around the self-serve revenue channel until we felt confident that A, we'd built the necessary growth muscles to scale, and B, we'd figured out some of the more pressing issues that were present earlier in the user journey.

一开始，我们只专注于获取和激活，有意推迟对围绕自助服务收入渠道的特定货币化计划的任何投资，直到我们确信 A，我们已经建立了扩展所需的增长力量，B，我们已经解决了用户旅程早期出现的一些更紧迫的问题。

It was important that we felt really confident about our ability to effectively connect developers to Snyk's value in such a way that introducing and optimizing a self-serve revenue channel would make sense.

重要的是，我们对自己能够有效地将开发者与 Snyk 的价值联系起来的能力充满信心，这样引入和优化自助收入渠道就有意义。

I also really wanted to avoid one of the common failure modes I've seen around cross-functional collaboration and growth.

我也非常想避免我在跨职能协作和增长方面看到的常见失败模式之一。

Ben Williams: When I joined, there was an inherent tension built into the system.

本·威廉姆斯：当我加入时，系统中存在着一种固有的紧张气氛。

It was particularly noticeable between R&D and the growth marketing team.

研发和增长营销团队之间的这一点尤其明显。

We had amazing people in both teams, a ton of really great ideas, but many of them were just not being executed on and it was leading to a lot of friction, a lot of frustration, ultimately caused by misaligned incentives between the different functions.

我们两个团队都有出色的人才，有很多非常棒的想法，但其中许多想法没有被执行，这导致了很多摩擦、很多挫败感，最终是由于不同职能部门之间的激励不一致造成的。

When creating the growth group, we resolved this by ensuring that each of the growth teams were truly cross-functional in nature with everyone in each team aligned around common objectives and KPIs.

在创建增长团队时，我们通过确保每个增长团队真正具有跨职能性质来解决这个问题，每个团队中的每个人都围绕共同目标和 KPI 保持一致。

Every team has engineers, an engineering manager, a product manager, a designer, a growth marketer, decision science support, and a basic shape of the growth teams that'll be familiar to most, but I spoke to a bunch of people over the last couple of years and I've actually learned to my surprise that inclusion of growth marketers in the product teams is not all that common.

每个团队都有工程师、工程经理、产品经理、设计师、增长营销人员、决策科学支持以及大多数人都熟悉的增长团队的基本形状，但在过去几年中我与很多人交谈过，我实际上惊讶地发现，将增长营销人员纳入产品团队并不常见。

And I personally think there's just a lot of opportunity being missed there and I expect that to start to become the norm rather than the exception over time.

我个人认为，那里错过了很多机会，我希望随着时间的推移，这将开始成为常态，而不是例外。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

I want to talk about that, but before we get there, you said there's a decision science person on the team.

我想谈谈这个，但在我们到达那里之前，你说团队中有一个决策科学人员。

What is that about?

那是关于什么的？

That's cool.

这很酷。

Ben Williams: That's right.

本·威廉姆斯：没错。

We started off from a fundamental BI data analyst perspective, but over time we wanted to apply a much deeper level of analysis on the data such that we could start to build in predictive models that could help us make better decisions and can ultimately fuel and power some of the end product experiences.

我们从基本的 BI 数据分析师角度开始，但随着时间的推移，我们希望对数据进行更深层次的分析，以便我们可以开始构建预测模型，帮助我们做出更好的决策，并最终为一些最终产品体验提供动力和动力。

Yeah, we spun up a decision science function and those folks are very smart.

是的，我们设立了决策科学职能部门，这些人非常聪明。

Lenny: Is that similar to data science or is that a separate ...

Lenny：这与数据科学相似还是一个单独的......

Okay.

好的。

It's cool that you call them decision science people versus data science, because that's so much more actionable.

你称他们为决策科学人员而不是数据科学人员，这很酷，因为这更具可操作性。

Lenny: Wow, that's cool.

莱尼：哇，那太酷了。

All right.

好的。

I haven't heard that before.

我以前没听说过。

Makes me think of Annie Duke and all the stuff about how to make better decisions and I love ...

让我想起安妮杜克和所有关于如何做出更好的决定的东西，我喜欢......

Is this something anyone else does or is this something you came up with calling -

这是其他人做的事还是你想出来的 -

Ben Williams: I'm not sure.

本·威廉姆斯：我不确定。

I don't necessarily think what we are doing is revolutionary there, but maybe the name, I'm not sure.

我不一定认为我们正在做的事情是革命性的，但也许是名字，我不确定。

Lenny: Yeah, the name is cool.

莱尼：是的，这个名字很酷。

I haven't heard that before.

我以前没听说过。

It implies bias towards action versus just we're going to do a bunch of cool stuff with data.

这意味着我们偏向于行动，而不是仅仅用数据做一些很酷的事情。

Interesting.

有趣的。

Okay.

好的。

Then you said that there's a growth marketer embedded in each team, so maybe just broadly what makes up these teams?

然后您说每个团队中都有一名增长营销人员，那么大概这些团队是由什么组成的？

Which you touched on briefly, then what have you learned is the value of having a growth marketer embedded within each team?

您简要提到了这一点，那么您了解到在每个团队中嵌入一名增长营销人员的价值是什么？

Ben Williams: It's important to have balanced teams with strong diversity across multiple vectors.

Ben Williams：拥有跨多个领域具有强大多样性的平衡团队非常重要。

Focusing on functional diversity at the moment, which is kind of what you're asking about with having growth marketers on the team, one of the big benefits you get is a broader pallet of ideas, but also a bigger toolbox when it comes to execution, which generally translates in an ability in a growth team for them to test and learn faster with more parallel, yet at the same time, aligned threats.

目前关注功能多样性，这就是您在团队中加入增长营销人员所要求的，您获得的最大好处之一是更广泛的想法，而且在执行方面也有更大的工具箱，这通常意味着增长团队有能力通过更并行但同时一致的威胁更快地测试和学习。

Perhaps I can give a recent example there.

也许我可以举一个最近的例子。

Having a growth marketer in an acquisition focused team led us to some lightweight experimentation on the website in creating an SEO optimized page.

在专注于收购的团队中拥有一名增长营销人员，使我们在网站上进行了一些轻量级的实验，以创建 SEO 优化页面。

It was something that was really high performing, both from the perspective of traffic and conversion, but it didn't require any engineering resources to create.

无论是从流量还是转化的角度来看，它的性能都非常高，而且不需要任何工程资源来创建。

The growth marketer and the team, and they decided together this was something worth pursuing.

增长营销人员和团队，他们共同决定这是值得追求的事情。

Ben Williams: But the growth marketer was able to kind of execute that independently while engineers were working on other things.

本·威廉姆斯：但是，当工程师忙于其他事情时，增长营销人员能够独立执行该任务。

But then based on the success of that, the team went on to build out a functional sidecar product that allowed users to basically try Snyk without needing to sign up by simply placing their code in for us to scan and giving them some results there and then.

但基于这一成功，该团队继续开发了一款功能性 Sidecar 产品，让用户基本上可以尝试 Snyk，而无需注册，只需将他们的代码放入我们扫描并立即给他们一些结果即可。

We saw really great results with that visitor traffic, saw a significant increase, sign up rate dropped a little bit as we'd expect it would, but overall new users had a big bump and those users had much higher intent, which we saw play out with increased activation rates.

我们在访客流量方面看到了非常好的结果，看到了显着的增长，注册率如我们预期的那样略有下降，但总体而言，新用户有一个很大的增长，并且这些用户的意图要高得多，我们看到这随着激活率的增加而发挥作用。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

And so there's essentially four teams under the growth umbrella.

因此，增长伞下基本上有四个团队。

There's acquisition, activation, monetization, and then this kind of experimentation platform team.

有收购、激活、货币化，然后是这种实验平台团队。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Ben Williams: Yeah, that's right.

本·威廉姆斯：是的，没错。

And that team is also responsible for making that data available elsewhere in the organization as well.

该团队还负责在组织的其他地方提供这些数据。

Product led sales is a really important motion for us, and so taking the knowledge we have, the insight we have around behavior with the users and their teams and their companies within the product, and making that available to the GTM teams outside in smart ways, allowing them to focus on the things that are most important to focus on.

以产品为主导的销售对我们来说是一项非常重要的举措，因此，利用我们所拥有的知识、我们对产品内用户、他们的团队和他们的公司的行为的洞察力，并以聪明的方式向外部的 GTM 团队提供这些信息，让他们能够专注于最重要的事情。

That's a really important part of what that team does.

这是该团队工作中非常重要的一部分。

Lenny: It's interesting, you guys are the epitome of product life sales.

Lenny：很有趣，你们是产品生命销售的缩影。

That's this new trend of from PLG to PLS for sales.

这就是销售从PLG 到PLS 的新趋势。

It's obvious that they're a big part of this whole process.

显然，它们是整个过程的重要组成部分。

The fact that monetization happens almost all through sales is interesting.

有趣的是，货币化几乎都是通过销售进行的。

That's interesting.

那很有意思。

Cool.

凉爽的。

Okay.

好的。

That's not a question, just a thought, talking out loud.

这不是一个问题，只是一个想法，大声说出来。

One other thought I had is, so you talked about SEO being a really important part of your growth.

我的另一个想法是，您谈到 SEO 是您成长中非常重要的一部分。

What is the person team like to do the SEO piece, the right content?

团队喜欢做 SEO 的人员是什么样的，正确的内容是什么？

I imagine they're on the acquisition team, there's maybe a content person that lives within that team.

我想他们是收购团队的成员，该团队中可能有一个满足的人。

Ben Williams: We have actually one of, the smartest SEO people I've ever met within .

Ben Williams：我们实际上拥有我所见过的最聪明的 SEO 人员之一。

Lenny: What's their name?

莱尼：他们叫什么名字？

Let's give them a shout out if you want.

如果你愿意的话，让我们为他们大声喊叫吧。

Ben Williams: Well, she's part of growth marketing, but she works extremely closely with the growth teams and she's got a few people in her organization and we bring them into specific SEO focused initiatives when we're looking to build loops around that.

Ben Williams：嗯，她是增长营销的一部分，但她与增长团队合作非常密切，她的组织中有一些人，当我们希望围绕该计划建立循环时，我们将他们带入特定的 SEO 重点计划中。

Incredibly important to have someone like that who understands that at a far deeper level than I could ever hope to, how SEO works.

拥有这样一个比我希望的更深层次的人来了解 SEO 的运作原理是非常重要的。

And particularly in terms of keeping on top of some of the things that Google are constantly doing in terms of their algorithm changes.

特别是在保持谷歌在算法变化方面不断做的一些事情方面。

Lenny: And does she actually do the writing for editorially, for I guess even the programmatically made pages or there's someone she outsources-

莱尼：她真的负责编辑写作吗，因为我猜甚至是程序化制作的页面，或者她外包了某人——

Ben Williams: No, but what she does do a great job of is providing the kind of continuously updated guidelines on how content should be structured to lead us to good results.

本·威廉姆斯：不，但她所做的出色工作是提供不断更新的指导方针，指导我们如何构建内容以引导我们取得良好的结果。

Lenny: Then it's just engineers and PMs that end up writing the things?

Lenny：那么最终就只有工程师和产品经理来写这些东西了？

Wow.

哇。

Cool.

凉爽的。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Vanta, helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate growth.

Lenny：本集由 Vanta 为您带来，可帮助您简化安全合规性以加速增长。

If your business stores any data in the cloud, then you've likely been asked or you're going to be asked about your SOC 2 compliance.

如果您的企业在云中存储任何数据，那么您可能会被询问或将被询问有关 SOC 2 合规性的问题。

SOC 2 is a way to prove your company's taking proper security measures to protect customer data and builds trust with customers and partners, especially those with serious security requirements.

SOC 2 是一种证明您的公司采取了适当的安全措施来保护客户数据并与客户和合作伙伴（尤其是那些有严格安全要求的客户和合作伙伴）建立信任的方法。

Also, if you want to sell to the enterprise, proving security is essential.

此外，如果你想向企业销售产品，证明安全性至关重要。

SOC 2 can either open the door for bigger and better deals or it can put your business on hold.

SOC 2 可以为更大、更好的交易打开大门，也可以让您的业务暂停。

Lenny: If you don't have a SOC 2, there's a good chance you won't even get a seat at the table.

Lenny：如果您没有 SOC 2，您很可能连一席之地都得不到。

Getting a SOC 2 report can be a huge burden, especially for startups.

获取 SOC 2 报告可能是一个巨大的负担，尤其是对于初创公司而言。

It's time consuming, tedious and expensive.

这是耗时、乏味且昂贵的。

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输入万塔。

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超过 3000 家快速发展的公司使用 Vanta 自动化 SOC 2 涉及的高达 90% 的工作。

Vanta can get you ready for security audits in weeks instead of months.

Vanta 可以让您在几周而不是几个月内为安全审核做好准备。

Less than a- PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:46:04]

小于 a- 第 2 部分（共 4 部分）结束 [00:46:04]

Lenny: Can get you ready for security audits in weeks instead of months, less than a third of the time that it usually takes.

Lenny：可以让您在几周而不是几个月内为安全审核做好准备，不到通常所需时间的三分之一。

For a limited time.

在有限的时间内。

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Lenny 的播客听众可享受 Vanta 立减 1,000 美元。

Just go to vanta.com/lenny, That's V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny to learn more and to claim your discount.

只需访问vanta.com/lenny（即V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny）即可了解更多信息并申请折扣。

Get started today.

今天就开始吧。

What advice do you have for folks building growth teams and maybe either similar space or just B2B, PLS oriented businesses in general?

您对构建增长团队以及类似空间或 B2B、PLS 导向型企业的人们有何建议？

What have you learned about what is important to get right?

关于做好正确的重要事情，您学到了什么？

Ben Williams: This is a big topic.

本·威廉姆斯：这是一个很大的话题。

I have a lot of thoughts here based on what I've seen work well and also not so well.

基于我所看到的有效和不太有效的方法，我有很多想法。

I think I can broadly bucket things here into maybe three main topics.

我想我可以将这里的事情大致分为三个主要主题。

So the first would be people and process.

因此，首先是人员和流程。

The second would be strategy, and the third would be data.

第二个是策略，第三个是数据。

Now they're all related and they all have to be working well to be effective in growth.

现在它们都是相关的，并且它们都必须运转良好才能有效增长。

Starting with people maybe touch the first element there in terms of balance teams, you've got to have those balance teams with diversity and ability to create great ideas, but also ability to execute.

从人开始，可能会触及平衡团队的第一个要素，你必须拥有具有多样性和创造伟大想法的能力的平衡团队，但也有执行能力。

So that's the first thing.

这是第一件事。

Ben Williams: But still on the topic of people, I have this kind of mental model, that potential that at its core is unbounded, but that a bunch of things situationally prevent people from fulfilling their potential.

本·威廉姆斯：但仍然是关于人的话题，我有这样的心理模型，其核心潜力是无限的，但有很多事情会阻碍人们发挥他们的潜力。

It might be how they're thinking about something.

这可能就是他们思考某事的方式。

It might be organizational.

这可能是有组织的。

It might be in relationships with coworkers or in broader team dynamics.

它可能与同事的关系或更广泛的团队动态有关。

It might be in them not even being in the right role even.

甚至可能是他们没有扮演正确的角色。

Ben Williams: So fundamentally I think it's the role of managers and leaders to help them identify those things and work with them to find ways to thrive and grow.

本·威廉姆斯：所以从根本上来说，我认为管理者和领导者的作用是帮助他们识别这些事情并与他们合作找到蓬勃发展和成长的方法。

And I've seen this have particular significance in a growth org where people are just naturally less good fit.

我发现这在一个成长型组织中具有特别重要的意义，因为在这个组织中，人们天生就不那么适合。

Now that doesn't mean that they're not amazing talented humans.

但这并不意味着他们不是才华横溢的人。

It just means they aren't going to do their best work in a growth context.

这只是意味着他们不会在增长的背景下尽最大努力。

Ben Williams: So when you're starting a growth team, you'll often be doing so with internal moves.

本·威廉姆斯：因此，当您组建增长团队时，您通常会通过内部调动来实现这一目标。

So this can be something that's maybe a little bit easier to miss than with external candidates where you are likely testing for those things explicitly during the hiring process.

因此，与外部候选人相比，这可能更容易被忽视，因为您可能会在招聘过程中明确测试这些内容。

I'll share an example with developers.

我将与开发人员分享一个示例。

Ben Williams: So the devs that really thrive in a growth context are the ones that are motivated by moving quickly, iterating to create measurable impact.

Ben Williams：因此，真正在增长环境中蓬勃发展的开发人员是那些通过快速行动、迭代以创造可衡量的影响而受到激励的开发人员。

They're not attached to their work.

他们不执着于自己的工作。

They embrace imperfection as part of the process.

他们接受不完美作为过程的一部分。

They happily discard their code, their ideas even.

他们很乐意丢弃他们的代码，甚至他们的想法。

They're curious and they're always looking for ways to be closer to their users.

他们很好奇，并且总是在寻找更接近用户的方法。

Ben Williams: Now those are the folks that generally make great growth engineers and I've also known incredible engineers that are most motivated when they're working on really deep technical challenges and love the process as much as the outcome.

Ben Williams：现在，这些人通常会成为伟大的成长工程师，我也认识一些令人难以置信的工程师，他们在解决真正深入的技术挑战时最有动力，并且热爱这个过程和结果。

And they've struggled in growth.

他们在成长过程中举步维艰。

Of course it's never that simple in reality.

当然，现实从来没有那么简单。

There's nobody who's really at either extremity of that spectrum.

没有人真正处于这个范围的两端。

But it's really important to try to answer the question, can this person do their best work in this environment?

但尝试回答这个问题确实很重要：这个人能否在这种环境下尽最大努力？

So I think that's a really key part of it.

所以我认为这是其中非常关键的部分。

Ben Williams: And yeah, you need to also make sure they're well equipped from a kind of skills and knowledge perspective as well.

本·威廉姆斯：是的，你还需要确保他们从技能和知识的角度来看都装备精良。

So they need the right skills and knowledge to be able to do their best work in the context of your growth process.

因此，他们需要正确的技能和知识，以便能够在您的成长过程中尽最大努力。

So the ideal state is that every growth team member has common vocabulary.

所以理想的状态是每个增长团队成员都有共同的词汇。

They're comfortable with the growth process.

他们对成长过程感到满意。

They can work well with data and experimentation platform.

它们可以与数据和实验平台很好地配合。

They understand the data.

他们了解数据。

They have the right skills and mindset.

他们拥有正确的技能和心态。

Ben Williams: Education I think plays a big part here.

本·威廉姆斯：我认为教育在这里发挥着重要作用。

So we're big fans of Reforge, but we've also developed a bunch of internal programs to align and uplevel the teams.

所以我们是 Reforge 的忠实粉丝，但我们也开发了一系列内部计划来协调和提升团队。

Something we learned, I think as an example, is the importance of starting simple and going deeper as the teams build experience.

我认为作为一个例子，我们学到的东西是从简单开始并随着团队积累经验而深入的重要性。

So for example, when it comes to experimentation, don't try at the beginning to introduce multivariate testing or concepts like sequential samplings and alternative evaluation approach.

例如，在进行实验时，不要一开始就尝试引入多变量测试或顺序采样和替代评估方法等概念。

Ben Williams: Teams are still trying to just dip their toes in that...

本·威廉姆斯：各支球队仍在尝试尝试……

This water, it's kind of a recipe for a lot of mistakes.

这种水会导致很多错误。

So that would be some advice there.

这将是一些建议。

Ben Williams: But people also need to be well aligned.

本·威廉姆斯：但是人们也需要保持一致。

I've talked about this actually on another podcast that I did recently.

我实际上在最近做的另一个播客上讨论过这个问题。

But what I mean by that is their execution needs to be aligned with an evolving growth strategy.

但我的意思是，他们的执行需要与不断发展的增长战略保持一致。

The growth strategy needs to be aligned with and at the same time influence where the company's going.

增长战略需要与公司的发展方向保持一致，同时影响公司的发展方向。

The growth strategy needs hooks into the product strategy and ideally there's some overlap and alignment of KPIs so that the growth teams and the core product teams are swimming in the same direction.

增长战略需要与产品战略挂钩，理想情况下，关键绩效指标有一些重叠和一致性，以便增长团队和核心产品团队朝着同一方向前进。

The skills and experience in the team need to be aligned with the strategy.

团队的技能和经验需要与战略保持一致。

If you've got to focus on activation and acquisition, then someone who's a plans and pricing expert probably isn't the right set of skills at that point in time.

如果您必须专注于激活和获取，那么计划和定价专家可能不适合当时的技能组合。

Ben Williams: But you also, leaders need to plan to ensure those skills are available as focus of the growth team inevitably shifts over time.

本·威廉姆斯：但领导者也需要制定计划，以确保这些技能可用，因为随着时间的推移，增长团队的重点不可避免地会发生变化。

But at the end of the day, I think everyone needs to be able to easily answer the question why they're there.

但归根结底，我认为每个人都需要能够轻松回答他们为什么在那里的问题。

Why the work they're doing is important.

为什么他们所做的工作很重要。

Ben Williams: I don't know if it's too far off track here, but I have a vision and mission framework that I like to use that leads to I think, great simple statements of an imagined better future state and your role in getting there.

本·威廉姆斯：我不知道这是否偏离了轨道，但我有一个我喜欢使用的愿景和使命框架，它导致我认为，对想象中的更好的未来状态以及你在实现这一目标中的作用的伟大简单陈述。

So I can talk about that a little bit if it's a-

所以我可以稍微谈谈这个如果是-

Lenny: Yeah, let's do it.

莱尼：是啊，我们就这么做吧。

That sounds too good to pass up.

这听起来太好了，不容错过。

Ben Williams: -Cool.

本·威廉姆斯：-酷。

So the vision is the nirvana state that you aim to enable for your users and customers in five to 10 years.

因此，愿景是您的目标是在五到十年内为您的用户和客户实现的涅槃状态。

It's something that could equally be enabled by your competitors if you don't execute effectively or efficiently or quickly enough.

如果您执行得不够有效、高效或足够快，您的竞争对手同样可能会利用这一点。

You can always prefix a vision statement with in the future, dot, dot dot.

您始终可以在愿景声明前加上“未来”、“点”、“点点”。

Ben Williams: Now it's something that should be bound to your target market.

Ben Williams：现在它应该与你的目标市场绑定。

So not too wide and not too narrow.

所以不能太宽也不能太窄。

And critically it should not mention your company, your product, or anything solution related at all.

最重要的是，它不应该提及您的公司、您的产品或任何相关的解决方案。

Completely agnostic of those things.

对这些事情完全不可知。

Ben Williams: And then the mission, that's the thing that you are going to relentlessly iterate on to take you incrementally closer to the nirvana state described in the vision.

本·威廉姆斯：然后是使命，这就是你要不断迭代的东西，让你逐渐接近愿景中描述的涅槃状态。

It should answer how you'll realize the vision by describing what your fundamental approach will be.

它应该通过描述你的基本方法来回答你将如何实现愿景。

In other words, what you will do and how you'll do it.

换句话说，你将做什么以及如何做。

It should ideally aim to encode any unique differentiating advantage you have.

理想情况下，它应该旨在编码您拥有的任何独特的差异化优势。

So if I think about Snyk at large when it comes to advantage, we might mention our unequal security intelligence and knowledge of application context.

因此，如果我从总体上考虑 Snyk 的优势，我们可能会提到我们不平等的安全智能和应用程序上下文知识。

Ben Williams: And one of the neat things about this framework is if you find utility in doing so, you can apply it at every level from the company level all the way down to individual team.

Ben Williams：这个框架的妙处之一是，如果您发现这样做有用，您可以将其应用到从公司级别一直到个人团队的各个级别。

It doesn't mean the process is not difficult and you need to spend a lot of time, but it gives you this set of kind of a framework, a set of bounds that help you really come out with world crafted statements that kind of stand the test of time.

这并不意味着这个过程并不困难，你需要花费很多时间，但它为你提供了一套框架，一套界限，帮助你真正拿出经得起时间考验的精心设计的陈述。

Lenny: Is there an example you could share of the mission vision, whether it's Snyk or something else?

Lenny：有没有可以分享一下使命愿景的例子，无论是 Snyk 还是其他？

Ben Williams: Yeah, yeah.

本·威廉姆斯：是的，是的。

I'll give you one for the growth group of Snyk.

我给你一张Snyk成长组的。

So great.

太棒了。

The vision, every developer securely unleashes their creativity and the mission is to connect every developer and their organizations to the value of the Snyk platform with frictionless self-serve, adoption and expansion.

我们的愿景是，每个开发人员都能安全地释放他们的创造力，而我们的使命是通过无摩擦的自助服务、采用和扩展，将每个开发人员及其组织与 Snyk 平台的价值联系起来。

Lenny: Interesting how the vision is so big beyond Snyk's current focus.

莱尼：有趣的是，这个愿景如此之大超出了斯尼克当前的关注范围。

And to your point, this kind of trickle down, right?

就你的观点而言，这种涓滴效应，对吗？

There's a company vision and mission and it's the growth team's mission vision.

有一个公司愿景和使命，这是增长团队的使命愿景。

Lenny: I want to shift a bit and talk about your product work.

莱尼：我想换一下话题，谈谈你的产品工作。

So we've talked a lot about the growth org.

我们已经讨论了很多关于增长组织的问题。

I'm curious what the broader product org looks like.

我很好奇更广泛的产品组织是什么样的。

How many teams do you have?

你们有多少支球队？

How do you structure it?

你如何构建它？

Is it like product focused, user focused, outcome focused?

是像以产品为中心、以用户为中心、以结果为中心吗？

And then just how does that team work with the growth team?

那么该团队如何与增长团队合作呢？

Ben Williams: Sure.

本·威廉姆斯：当然。

Happy to go into a bunch of that stuff.

很高兴能进入一堆这样的东西。

I know I'd mentioned earlier kind of three areas of building a growth team.

我知道我之前提到过建立增长团队的三个领域。

I don't know if you want me to cover those other two.

我不知道你是否希望我介绍另外两个。

'Cause we talked about-

因为我们谈论过——

Lenny: Oh yeah, okay, let's do that.

莱尼：哦，是的，好吧，我们就这么做吧。

Let's finish that thread.

让我们完成该线程。

Ben Williams: -Cool.

本·威廉姆斯：-酷。

So people and process was the first and we'll cover process really quickly.

因此，人员和流程是第一位的，我们将很快介绍流程。

I think on the process side, at a minimum here you need well understood, documented growth processes, practices, working cadences.

我认为在流程方面，至少你需要充分理解、记录的成长流程、实践和工作节奏。

Teams in growth need to work differently in some ways from R and D teams working on core product, assuming otherwise, and just giving growth responsibility to an existing team without working with them to implement appropriate ways of working.

成长中的团队需要在某些方面与致力于核心产品的研发团队有所不同，否则的话，只是将成长责任交给现有团队，而不与他们合作实施适当的工作方式。

I think it's a common track.

我认为这是一个常见的轨道。

Ben Williams: Ideally you get to a point there where the growth process is something that's continually refined and iterated on trying to build in more predictability.

本·威廉姆斯：理想情况下，你会达到这样一个地步：成长过程是不断完善和迭代的，试图建立更多的可预测性。

But what I've found I think most singularly most important in a growth process is facilitating a rapid learning cadence and providing the means to socialize those learnings, surfacing them in the right place at the right time so they can be leveraged and at the context.

但我发现，我认为在成长过程中最重要的是促进快速的学习节奏，并提供将这些学习内容社会化的手段，在正确的时间将它们呈现在正确的地点，以便可以在具体情况下利用它们。

And if you think about experimentation, it's not about delivering outcomes it's about generating learnings that the organization can leverage effectively to deliver outcomes.

如果你考虑实验，你会发现它并不是要交付成果，而是要产生学习成果，组织可以有效利用这些知识来交付成果。

Ben Williams: Might not be now, might not be tomorrow or some point in the future.

本·威廉姆斯：可能不是现在，也可能不是明天或未来的某个时刻。

But the sad reality is that without good process learnings easily end up unused and gathering dust.

但可悲的现实是，如果没有良好的过程学习，很容易最终被闲置并积满灰尘。

And you have to ask then what was the point?

你必须问那有什么意义呢？

So as people in process and you know when that's on the right track, when you start to see enthusiastic sharing of learnings, when you see regular contribution of ideas coming from everyone in the form of well crafted hypotheses that are based on data and learnings.

因此，作为过程中的人们，当你开始看到热情的学习分享时，当你看到每个人以基于数据和学习的精心设计的假设的形式定期贡献想法时，你知道什么时候是在正确的轨道上。

And when you see a wide variety of folks, just assuming end to end ownership of managing and running experiments instead of delegating that to the product manager or an engineer and tech lead.

当你看到各种各样的人时，只是假设管理和运行实验的端到端所有权，而不是将其委托给产品经理或工程师和技术主管。

So yeah, that's people in process and strategy is-

所以是的，流程中的人员和策略是-

Lenny: Let me throw in a question real quick before we get to the last piece.

莱尼：在我们讨论最后一部分之前，让我快速提出一个问题。

Lenny: So learnings, just to kind of touch on that.

莱尼：学习，只是为了触及这一点。

I've heard more and more pushback on the idea of learnings being an outcome.

我听到越来越多的人反对“学习是结果”的观点。

Because a lot of...

因为很多...

As a leader, you're not going to be like, Cool, we learned so many things but nothing really got done.

作为领导者，你不会说，酷，我们学到了很多东西，但什么也没真正完成。

How do you think about the tension between, yeah, learnings we want to learn, but we also want to move metrics, grow the business and learnings are a way to inform decisions more than even just learn.

你如何看待我们想要学习的知识之间的紧张关系，但我们也想改变指标，发展业务，学习是一种为决策提供信息的方式，而不仅仅是学习。

How do you think about that kind of balance?

您如何看待这种平衡？

Ben Williams: Ultimately you're there to create impact, right?

本·威廉姆斯：最终你是为了创造影响力，对吧？

There's no getting away from that, but learnings is the means.

这是无法回避的，但学习是手段。

It's the same as, there's a quote that I love from around focus on the user's path to value not on monetization.

就像我喜欢引用的一句话一样，“关注用户的价值之路，而不是货币化”。

Because if you focus on the form of the latter will follow, and that's the same thing with learnings and impact here.

因为如果你专注于后者的形式就会随之而来，这与这里的学习和影响是一样的。

If you try and focus on the impact itself might struggle.

如果你尝试关注影响本身可能会很困难。

If you focus on the things you need in terms of learnings to take you step by step, that will pave the path to creating impact.

如果你专注于你需要学习的事情，一步一步地引导你，这将为创造影响力铺平道路。

Lenny: I imagine your OKRs and goals are still like move this metrics some percentage, but you think of that as an output and the input is let's learn a bunch of stuff about what works and doesn't work and use that to inform what we're going to double down on.

Lenny：我想你的 OKR 和目标仍然是将这个指标移动一定比例，但你认为这是一个输出，而输入是让我们学习一堆关于什么有效和无效的东西，并用它来告诉我们要加倍努力。

Ben Williams: You got to focus on when you build a strategic opportunity, you are thinking about the outcomes, but you don't just go right to the end state.

本·威廉姆斯：当你创造一个战略机会时，你必须集中精力，你要考虑结果，但你不能直接进入最终状态。

You've got to think about what's the quickest way we can test this hypothesis?

你必须考虑一下我们检验这个假设的最快方法是什么？

And from there, what we learn from that and what do we take into the next set of the next set of experiments and it...

从那里，我们从中学到了什么，以及我们在下一组实验中采取什么，以及它......

You're paving this path along the way.

你正在一路铺平这条路。

You kind of that rough destination.

你的目的地有点崎岖。

How you get there, you don't know at the start.

你如何到达那里，一开始你并不知道。

And that's what the path that the learnings take you on.

这就是学习所带你走的道路。

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

Okay.

好的。

And then strategy we're talking about.

然后是我们正在谈论的策略。

Ben Williams: Strategy.

本·威廉姆斯：战略。

Yeah, so strategy, it's a good one.

是的，所以策略，这是一个很好的策略。

At a very basic level, you need to be able to answer questions.

在非常基础的层面上，您需要能够回答问题。

How do you acquire users?

如何获取用户？

How do you retain users?

如何留住用户？

How do you monetize them?

你如何通过它们获利？

I know you talked with Elena on that in more depth, but from there you need more detail.

我知道您与埃琳娜对此进行了更深入的交谈，但从那里您需要更多细节。

It's going to guide the growth teams and where they look for strategic opportunity, how they approach that.

它将指导增长团队以及他们在哪里寻找战略机会以及如何实现这一目标。

The best way I've found to articulate a growth strategy that fulfills the promise of usefully guiding the team's execution, it's the loop based model, Reforge, as specific kind of documentation that I think is great around that.

我发现，阐明实现有效指导团队执行承诺的增长策略的最佳方法是基于循环的模型 Reforge，作为特定类型的文档，我认为它非常适合于此。

Ben Williams: Being able to identify the various micro and macro loops, how they're all connected, being able to document them in a qualitative model to communicate a shared understanding of how you grow.

Ben Williams：能够识别各种微观和宏观循环，它们是如何相互联系的，能够以定性模型记录它们，以传达对如何成长的共同理解。

It's really powerful.

真的很强大。

Augmenting that then with the quantitative side of things, that helps guide quarter to quarter focus and ensure you can be intentional about where you're investing.

然后通过定量方面来增强这一点，这有助于指导季度与季度的重点，并确保您可以有意识地进行投资。

That becomes a big enabler.

这成为一个很大的推动因素。

Ben Williams: You're never going to have a shortage of ideas in a high performing growth team.

本·威廉姆斯：在一个高绩效的增长团队中，永远不会缺少创意。

So knowing where to focus amidst that kind of sea of ideas is a really important role of the strategy and fairly on, you'll probably have one or two core loops, but inevitably you'll need to layer on and connect new ones over time.

因此，知道在这种浩瀚的想法中应该关注哪里是该策略的一个非常重要的角色，公平地说，你可能会有一两个核心循环，但随着时间的推移，你不可避免地需要分层并连接新的循环。

And having a framework for doing that and having a framework for regularly revisiting that in the context of growth, team learnings, changes in broader company strategy, evolution of the product, new features being added, and so on.

并有一个框架来做到这一点，并有一个框架可以在增长、团队学习、更广泛的公司战略的变化、产品的演变、添加的新功能等背景下定期重新审视这一点。

Market shifts, that becomes a big up level for teams to be able to create timely impact.

市场发生变化，这对于团队能够及时产生影响来说是一个很大的提升。

Ben Williams: So the model you create there is what enables you to know at any time where the biggest constraints to your growth are and allows you to balance your growth investments accordingly.

Ben Williams：因此，您创建的模型使您能够随时了解对您的增长最大的限制在哪里，并允许您相应地平衡您的增长投资。

It's neat for sure.

它肯定很整洁。

We've had times where we've focused on a broad set of constraints and opportunities and other times where we've had a much narrower focus.

我们有时会关注一系列广泛的限制和机遇，有时则关注的范围要窄得多。

For example, on driving improvement to activation and engagement, even more narrowed like doing that through empty states, for example.

例如，在推动激活和参与方面的改进时，范围甚至更窄，例如通过空状态来做到这一点。

Lenny: I want to unpack the strategy piece real quick.

莱尼：我想快速解开战略部分。

How do you operationalize this idea of you have this growth model, growth loop, you figured out here's the ways we're growing.

你如何实施这个想法，你有这个增长模式，增长循环，你发现这就是我们的增长方式。

How do you tactically connect that to a strategy?

您如何在战术上将​​其与战略联系起来？

Is it, here's how we're growing, here's where we're going to focus this quarter, optimize this part of the loop, or is there some other way?

是吗，这就是我们的增长方式，这就是我们本季度要关注的重点，优化循环的这一部分，还是还有其他方法？

You write it down, basically.

基本上，你把它写下来。

Ben Williams: Very simply, it's first of all alignment on how you grow the different loops, how they work, the roles of different teams and the roles that they play in fueling those loops and getting them to spin faster.

Ben Williams：很简单，首先要协调如何发展不同的循环、它们如何工作、不同团队的角色以及他们在推动这些循环并使它们旋转得更快方面所扮演的角色。

I think that's the first thing, having that common vocabulary and understanding.

我认为这是第一件事，拥有共同的词汇和理解。

Ben Williams: Second is understanding the way they work in terms of what is constraining them, what are the inputs to them?

本·威廉姆斯：其次是了解他们的工作方式，了解什么限制了他们，对他们的投入是什么？

What are the opportunities for making those loops spin faster?

有哪些机会可以让这些循环旋转得更快？

How can multiple loops work together in a macro context?

多个循环如何在宏观环境中协同工作？

Ben Williams: And particularly using the data there to be able to identify and understand and get alignment around where are the biggest constraints in your growth model overall and therefore where are the things that we need to focus on as a team over the next quarter or two quarters, and so on.

Ben Williams：特别是使用那里的数据能够识别、理解并协调整体增长模型中最大的限制在哪里，因此我们作为一个团队在下一个季度或两个季度需要关注的事情在哪里，等等。

Ben Williams: And that it's constantly changing.

本·威廉姆斯：而且它在不断变化。

As I mentioned, there's a bunch of stuff that needs to feed back into that model in terms of growth loop performance or the learnings you're making and so on.

正如我所提到的，在增长循环性能或您正在学习的内容等方面，有很多东西需要反馈到该模型中。

That means it's changing and you're constantly reevaluating and it's guiding kind of quarter to quarter planning.

这意味着它正在发生变化，您需要不断地重新评估，并且它会指导季度计划。

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

So just to make it even more concrete for folks that are listening.

所以只是为了让正在倾听的人更加具体。

So one of your loops is this integration with GitHub where you automatically fix their code and create a PR.

因此，您的循环之一就是与 GitHub 的集成，您可以在其中自动修复他们的代码并创建 PR。

You may find at some point somebody clicking that link to becoming a user is too high friction, too many people are falling out.

您可能会发现在某些时候，有人点击该链接成为用户的摩擦力太大，太多人都退出了。

So one strategy for one of say the activation team could be we're going to optimize this part of the funnel.

因此，激活团队的一项策略可能是优化漏斗的这一部分。

So when clicking from GitHub to sign up as a user and get them to a point where they found value, right?

那么，当从 GitHub 点击注册成为用户并让他们发现价值时，对吧？

Ben Williams: Yep.

本·威廉姆斯：是的。

That exactly that sort of thing.

正是这样的事情。

Or earlier on, for example, it might have been with that taken that same example of that same loop, and this is sufficiently far in the past that it's easy for me to talk about.

或者早些时候，例如，可能是采用同一个循环的相同示例，而且这已经是很久以前的事了，我很容易谈论。

But we start with GitHub.

但我们从 GitHub 开始。

We want to now expand the scope of that loop.

我们现在想要扩大该循环的范围。

We've seen success with it.

我们已经看到了它的成功。

We see the performance of that loop growing, but we think there's opportunity in saying let's expand that by adding support for Bitbucket.

我们看到该循环的性能不断增长，但我们认为有机会通过添加对 Bitbucket 的支持来扩展它。

And now all of a sudden we spin up that same loop with Bitbucket and then GitLab and so on.

现在突然我们用 Bitbucket 和 GitLab 等启动了同样的循环。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

We could go a whole hour on just that piece, so we'll move on and we'll save that for feed two.

我们可以花整整一个小时来完成这个部分，所以我们将继续前进，我们将把它留到第二个提要中。

Ben Williams: Data was the last thing.

本·威廉姆斯：数据是最后一件事。

And growth team just can't function without data that even with early stage products, before you have the needed volume of traffic to be able to run formal tests in reasonable timeframes, you still need to have signals that help you learn and inform your decisions, both quantum and of course qu through speaking with users.

如果没有数据，增长团队就无法运作，即使对于早期产品，在您拥有能够在合理的时间范围内运行正式测试所需的流量之前，您仍然需要有信号来帮助您学习并为您的决策提供信息，无论是量子信号还是通过与用户交谈。

My advice there is really just to invest early the infrastructure, the tooling then at a given scale, the dedicated people as well.

我的建议实际上是尽早投资基础设施、特定规模的工具以及敬业的人员。

They're going to be core to building out the growth team and they'll enable data to ultimately pretty much inform all critical decisions.

他们将成为构建增长团队的核心，他们将使数据最终为所有关键决策提供信息。

Ben Williams: So Snyk was interesting that we didn't have a problem of not having enough data.

Ben Williams：所以 Snyk 很有趣，我们没有遇到没有足够数据的问题。

In fact, there was an abundance of data, like too much.

事实上，数据非常丰富，太多了。

We collected absolutely everything.

我们收集了一切。

And the problem I identified very early was that we didn't have enough behavioral specific data and we weren't intentional enough about the data that we were collecting and how we were collecting it, which made the data hard to trust and that becomes a big problem.

我很早就发现的问题是，我们没有足够的行为特定数据，而且我们对收集的数据以及收集方式没有足够的重视，这使得数据难以信任，这成为一个大问题。

Ben Williams: So we invested in tooling and processes for building out event tracking plans, and now we test conformance to schema of the instrumented code in our CI processes.

Ben Williams：因此，我们投资了用于构建事件跟踪计划的工具和流程，现在我们测试 CI 流程中检测代码架构的一致性。

So we have absolute confidence in the data.

所以我们对数据有绝对的信心。

So that was getting to a point of trustworthy behavioral data was absolutely key.

因此，获得值得信赖的行为数据绝对是关键。

Ben Williams: But the reason I say invest early here is that to remember that it also takes time to accrue enough data that you can learn about and make some key decisions around retention, for example.

本·威廉姆斯：但我在这里说尽早投资的原因是要记住，积累足够的数据也需要时间，以便您可以了解并做出一些有关保留的关键决策。

Also that you have enough data to run regressions on, be able to inform definition of your activation metrics or engagement states and so on.

此外，您还有足够的数据来运行回归，能够告知激活指标或参与状态等的定义。

So the earlier you can start collecting the better.

因此，越早开始收集越好。

So yeah, people in process a strategy and data and you absolutely need all of those things to build and run an affected growth team.

所以，是的，人们正在处理策略和数据，并且您绝对需要所有这些东西来建立和运行受影响的增长团队。

Ben Williams: When you get all of those things working, it's like rocket fuel for focus creativity, but at the same time slowing down to put the maturity in place as on all scales at the pace Snyk has it's pretty much impossible.

本·威廉姆斯：当你让所有这些事情都发挥作用时，它就像集中创造力的火箭燃料，但同时放慢速度，以斯尼克的速度在所有规模上实现成熟，这几乎是不可能的。

You still have to get stuff done while you're kind of building all that stuff out.

当你正在构建所有这些东西时，你仍然必须完成这些事情。

You have to accept that you're going to make a bunch of mistakes along the way.

你必须承认一路上你会犯很多错误。

You have to be a hundred percent comfortable with that.

你必须对此百分百感到满意。

And you have to treat those mistakes as learning opportunities that provide leaves for improvement.

你必须将这些错误视为学习机会，为改进提供机会。

Ben Williams: And it's also useful to...

本·威廉姆斯：这也很有用......

You know, asked about KPIs and what the team are responsible for it.

你知道，询问 KPI 以及团队对此负责的内容。

And that is one way in which a growth team absolutely needs to make impact and it's the way that primarily they're going to be held accountable.

这是增长团队绝对需要产生影响的一种方式，也是他们主要承担责任的方式。

But it's also I think, useful to think about the efficacy of the growth org, not just in terms of the impact they drive our experiments and new product experiences and on core growth pick KPIs, but also how they enable and uplevel the rest of the org.

但我认为，思考增长组织的功效也是有用的，不仅是它们推动我们的实验和新产品体验以及对核心增长选择 KPI 的影响，而且还包括它们如何启用和提升组织的其他部分。

Ben Williams: So for example, our entire product led sales process, it's powered by an evolving model that describes our understanding of users, teams, accounts, the usage and adoption patterns and signals, the best in form where and how our GTM teams focused.

Ben Williams：例如，我们的整个产品主导的销售流程，它由一个不断发展的模型提供支持，该模型描述了我们对用户、团队、帐户、使用和采用模式和信号的理解，以及我们的 GTM 团队关注的最佳形式。

Insights from growth teams often have utility far beyond growth, but people can't know if something is useful to them if you haven't shared it with them.

增长团队的见解通常具有远远超出增长的用途，但如果你没有与他们分享，人们就无法知道某些东西对他们是否有用。

So the learnings made in the growth teams, even those from mistakes or failures, we socialize them widely and visibly.

因此，在增长团队中学到的东西，即使是从错误或失败中学到的东西，我们也会广泛而明显地进行社会化。

Ben Williams: We want every R and D team to be leveraging experimentation where appropriate to learn to create business impact.

Ben Williams：我们希望每个研发团队都能在适当的情况下利用实验来学习创造业务影响。

So one of the things we did here is creating a paved row for adoption of behavioral analytics and experimentation stack, coach teams on getting started to make it as easy as possible for anyone to start to reap the benefits of the platform, built out internal education programs on data driven development, on experimentation, built internal tools to help with metrics design and so on.

因此，我们在这里所做的一件事是为采用行为分析和实验堆栈创建一个铺平的行，指导团队开始让任何人都尽可能轻松地开始获得平台的好处，建立关于数据驱动开发和实验的内部教育计划，建立内部工具来帮助指标设计等等。

Ben Williams: And then building core platform services as well that are useful for people outside of growth.

本·威廉姆斯：然后还要构建对增长以外的人们有用的核心平台服务。

So we built services that power contextual onboarding, and originally that was the intent, but now those same services can be used anywhere in the product to give contextual experiences.

因此，我们构建了支持情境引导的服务，最初这就是我们的意图，但现在这些相同的服务可以在产品中的任何地方使用，以提供情境体验。

I know that was a bit of a ramble, but hopefully there's one or two useful things in there.

我知道这有点啰嗦，但希望其中有一两个有用的东西。

Lenny: Yeah, there's two things I wanted to quickly follow up and then we can talk about the product team.

Lenny：是的，有两件事我想快速跟进，然后我们可以讨论产品团队。

You said you socialize learnings and experiment results.

你说你将学习和实验结果社交化。

Is there anything you could share there about tips to do that?

您有什么可以分享的关于做到这一点的技巧吗？

You have a tool you do use that for?

您有使用它的工具吗？

Is there someone posts stuff in Slack?

有人在 Slack 上发帖吗？

Is it an email that goes out?

是一封发出去的电子邮件吗？

How do you actually socialize learning such that say a salesperson can do something with it?

你如何真正将学习社交化，让销售人员可以用它做点什么？

Ben Williams: Yes.

本·威廉姆斯：是的。

So there's, first of all, there's a bunch of Slack channels like Synk runs on Slack basically.

首先，有很多 Slack 通道，例如 Synk 基本上在 Slack 上运行。

So there's a bunch of Slack channels.

所以有很多 Slack 频道。

Even when we're planning experiments, those are kind of wide and in the open and we invite collaboration on those.

即使我们正在计划实验，这些实验也是广泛且公开的，我们邀请在这些实验上进行合作。

But from a ceremony perspective, we try hard to institutionalize ways to generate and leverage learnings.

但从仪式的角度来看，我们努力将生成和利用学习的方法制度化。

It's something I feel pretty strongly about.

我对此有强烈的感受。

So we have these team level impact and learnings reviews loosely modeled from a blog years back down, I don't know...

所以我们有这些团队层面的影响和学习评论，这些评论是从几年前的博客中松散建模的，我不知道......

Six years I want to say that Brian Balfour wrote about a similar ceremony from these HubSpot days.

六年来，我想说布莱恩·贝尔福 (Brian Balfour) 在 HubSpot 时代写过类似的仪式。

Ben Williams: And if I had to pick one meeting that as the most important in the growth team, it would be this.

本·威廉姆斯：如果我必须选择一次会议作为增长团队中最重要的会议，那就是这次会议。

The teams continuously document any learnings from data exploration, from experimentation, from user research and so on.

团队不断记录从数据探索、实验、用户研究等中学到的知识。

They document that in their weekly impact and learnings document.

他们在每周的影响和学习文档中记录了这一点。

Ben Williams: Some teams find it better to pair up and advanced into dedicated learning sessions to deep dive on specific relevant topics.

Ben Williams：有些团队发现最好结对并进入专门的学习课程，深入探讨特定的相关主题。

But however it comes together, it's all put into that document.

但无论如何组合，所有内容都已放入该文档中。

Ben Williams: When it comes to the meeting itself, it's usually run by the pm.

本·威廉姆斯：就会议本身而言，通常由下午主持。

Most of it is spent discussing learnings that have been documented, their implications, how they can be leveraged in follow up work, where they might have relevance to other teams and so on.

大部分时间都花在讨论已记录的学习内容、它们的含义、如何在后续工作中利用它们、它们可能与其他团队相关的地方等等。

For relatively smaller part of the meeting is also spent looking at key metrics.

会议的相对较小部分也用于研究关键指标。

Some teams have actually split that out entirely into a separate meeting.

有些团队实际上已将其完全分成一个单独的会议。

And then no time at all is spent reviewing what the team have actually been doing.

然后就根本没有时间去回顾团队实际做了什么。

It's more on kind of the outcomes and the learning.

更多的是关于结果和学习的种类。

So that's at the team level.

这是团队层面的。

Ben Williams: But then we run that same meeting at the group level on a monthly basis.

本·威廉姆斯：但是我们每月都会在小组级别举行同样的会议。

So that's run by the product engineering or marketing director for the growth group.

因此，它是由增长团队的产品工程或营销总监负责管理的。

And that's where all of the growth teams come together.

这就是所有增长团队聚集在一起的地方。

They share some key learnings, can't share everything.

他们分享一些重要的经验教训，但无法分享所有内容。

Of course, what they're doing is picking specific learnings that have potential relevance in utility across the other teams.

当然，他们正在做的是挑选与其他团队的实用性具有潜在相关性的特定学习内容。

So also as a standing agenda item for our user research team to share what we call developer insights.

因此，这也是我们的用户研究团队分享我们所谓的开发人员见解的常设议程项目。

That's one of my personal favorite meetings to attend.

这是我个人最喜欢参加的会议之一。

It's always recorded and socialize with the rest of the company afterwards.

它总是被记录下来并在事后与公司的其他成员进行交流。

And yeah, I'd say that's really important, but there's a bunch of different ways in which we're filing out that information constantly.

是的，我想说这确实很重要，但是我们可以通过多种不同的方式不断地提交这些信息。

Lenny: So cool.

莱尼：太酷了。

And this is a meeting that anyone can come to like a sales person comes to.

这是一个任何人都可以参加的会议，就像销售人员参加一样。

PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [01:09:04]

第 3 部分（共 4 部分）结束 [01:09:04]

Lenny: And this is a meeting that anyone can come to like a sales person comes to see what interesting stuff the product team has learned recently from experiments.

Lenny：这是一个任何人都可以参加的会议，就像销售人员来看看产品团队最近从实验中学到了什么有趣的东西一样。

How cool.

多酷啊。

Would you be able to share a template of that document that you put together that we could include in the show notes?

您能否分享您整理的该文档的模板，我们可以将其包含在演出笔记中？

Lenny: Sweet.

莱尼：甜甜的。

And then the meeting, you said it's run by basically like some of the product functions and ideas to share things they've learned in recent experiments, say in the past month.

然后是会议，你说它基本上是通过一些产品功能和想法来分享他们在最近的实验中学到的东西，比如在过去的一个月里。

Ben Williams: So typically the team level ceremony, it's PM-led.

本·威廉姆斯：通常情况下，团队级别的仪式是由总理领导的。

That's from more from a facilitation perspective.

这更多是从促进的角度来看。

The learnings are all brought forward by the various folks in the team and each one of them who's contributed to learning will talk about that learning with the group and facilitate the discussion from there.

这些学习内容都是由团队中的各个人员提出的，每一位对学习做出贡献的人都会与小组讨论学习内容并促进讨论。

And then at the group level, those are read by the directors for the growth group and each team it might be an engineering lead, it might be a tech lead, it might be a designer, it might be the product manager.

然后在集团层面，这些内容由增长集团和每个团队的董事阅读，它可能是工程主管，可能是技术主管，可能是设计师，可能是产品经理。

We'll talk about some key learnings from that month.

我们将讨论该月的一些重要经验教训。

Lenny: Makes sense.

莱尼：有道理。

If there's nothing PMs are good at, it's facilitating meetings.

如果产品经理没有什么擅长的，那就是主持会议。

So that makes sense.

所以这是有道理的。

Okay.

好的。

And so that's a good segue to just chatting a bit about the product org.

因此，这是一个很好的继续，只是聊一下产品组织。

I'm curious just like how you structure the product team and then how that works with the growth team.

我很好奇你如何构建产品团队以及如何与增长团队合作。

Ben Williams: That's good.

本·威廉姆斯：那很好。

So the product org, what do you want to know?

那么产品组织，你想知道什么？

Lenny: Broadly, how do you structure it?

Lenny：一般来说，你是如何构建它的？

Just like how many teams do you have?

就像你们有多少支球队一样？

Do you align it across by outcome or is it by surface area of a product?

您是根据结果还是根据产品的表面积来调整它？

And then is the growth team like adjacent to this product org?

那么增长团队是否与该产品组织相邻？

Is it like a unit within the product org or is it integrated?

它是产品组织内的一个单位还是集成的？

But I don't think it is.

但我不这么认为。

So what does that look like org chart wise?

那么组织结构图看起来是什么样的呢？

Ben Williams: I think we've got a fairly common pattern for how we structure our product and wider R&D org.

Ben Williams：我认为我们对于如何构建我们的产品和更广泛的研发组织有一个相当常见的模式。

So most of the org functional ownership-based, there are a lot of really complex domains in the core product.

因此，大多数组织功能都是基于所有权的，核心产品中有很多非常复杂的领域。

So having that localized knowledge is important to be able to own and run the code that teams ship.

因此，拥有本地化知识对于能够拥有和运行团队发布的代码非常重要。

The growth teams, on the other hand, are structured by outcomes.

另一方面，增长团队是根据结果构建的。

We talked about that already.

我们已经讨论过了。

Owning areas like acquisition, activation, engagement, monetization.

拥有获取、激活、参与、货币化等领域。

These outcomes and team remits change over time as we talked about.

正如我们所讨论的，这些结果和团队的职责会随着时间的推移而变化。

But the teams here are often working on areas of the product where they don't own the code, which I think is the key difference between how we structure our growth teams and product teams with some exceptions.

但这里的团队经常在他们不拥有代码的产品领域工作，我认为这是我们构建增长团队和产品团队的主要区别，但也有一些例外。

One of the growth teams actually own the onboarding flows and so on.

其中一个增长团队实际上拥有入职流程等。

So that does require a lot of trust.

所以这确实需要很大的信任。

Ben Williams: It requires very transparent communication mechanisms built into how we work.

Ben Williams：这需要我们的工作方式中内置非常透明的沟通机制。

One of the meetings that we have regularly is experiment plan reviews.

我们定期举行的会议之一是实验计划审查。

They're ad hoc meetings.

它们是临时会议。

They're led by the experiment lead, could be the PM, could be anyone else in the team.

他们由实验负责人领导，可能是 PM，也可能是团队中的其他任何人。

But the important thing is a bunch of people will be invited there, especially stakeholders from other teams where we might be experimenting on their surfaces and that won't be the first time they've learned about this.

但重要的是，会有很多人被邀请到那里，特别是来自其他团队的利益相关者，我们可能正在他们的表面上进行实验，这不会是他们第一次了解到这一点。

We'd like to try and actually include them in co-designing the experiment plan so they're fully on board with it.

我们想尝试并实际让他们参与共同设计实验计划，以便他们完全参与其中。

But absolutely kind of inviting them into those experiment and views really key.

但邀请他们参与这些实验和观点绝对是关键。

If we're going to run an experiment on that surface, we need to make sure that everything in that experiment plan is watertight, especially from a scheduling perspective because the last thing we want is a week and a half into an experiment for some change to happen within that surface from the product team unaware that an experiment's happening and completely invalidate the experiment.

如果我们要在该表面上进行实验，我们需要确保实验计划中的所有内容都是无懈可击的，尤其是从调度的角度来看，因为我们最不希望发生的事情是实验进行一周半后，产品团队不知道实验正在发生，而导致该表面发生一些变化，从而使实验完全无效。

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

And then in terms of just org wise, do you have a lieutenant that is responsible for just say the product team and then someone responsible for the growth team or the directors report up to you and you have a bunch of reports?

然后就组织而言，您是否有一名中尉负责产品团队，然后有人负责增长团队或董事向您报告，而您有一堆报告？

How's that structure?

这个结构怎么样？

Ben Williams: Oh, so our CPO on the exec team , he runs the entire product organization.

Ben Williams：哦，我们执行团队的首席产品官（CPO）负责管理整个产品组织。

He has four, I want to say VPs, that own different areas.

我想说的是，他有四位副总裁，分别负责不同的领域。

So there's a couple of VPs that own different areas of the product.

因此，有几个副总裁负责该产品的不同领域。

So first of all, our application security products.

首先是我们的应用安全产品。

Secondly, our cloud security products.

其次，我们的云安全产品。

Third is platform.

三是平台。

And fourth is what we call developer journeys, which is the area I own, which has a few groups within there, one of which being the growth group.

第四是我们所说的开发者旅程，这是我拥有的领域，其中有几个小组，其中之一是成长小组。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

Okay.

好的。

Makes sense.

有道理。

Okay.

好的。

There's just a couple more questions I want to ask that are very tactical specific before we get to a very exciting lightning round to close this out.

在我们进行一场非常激动人心的闪电回合结束之前，我还想问几个非常具体的战术问题。

One is with a freemium product, there's always this question of what to put into free and what to put into the paid plan.

一种是免费增值产品，总是存在这样的问题：什么是免费的，什么是付费计划。

Is there anything you've learned about how to think about that?

关于如何思考这个问题，你有学到什么吗？

What should be in free and what should be behind a paywall?

什么应该是免费的，什么应该是付费的？

Ben Williams: Was it on your show with Elena that she talked about things that promote your growth model being good to land in free and things that add friction?

本·威廉姆斯：在你与埃琳娜的节目中，她是否谈到了促进你的增长模式有利于免费落地以及增加摩擦的事情？

So I really like that guidance.

所以我真的很喜欢这个指导。

I'll add that for many businesses there might be some cost of service element to consider as well.

我要补充的是，对于许多企业来说，可能还需要考虑一些服务成本。

Providing a feature to free users is cost prohibitive due to the volume, then that's obviously something you're going to want to reserve for paid.

由于数量众多，向免费用户提供一项功能的成本过高，那么这显然是您想要为付费用户保留的功能。

Ultimately, that was the whole reason cited behind Heroku, recently removing their free plain entirely.

最终，这就是 Heroku 背后引用的全部原因，最近完全删除了他们的免费平原。

I think your plans from free to the top, they should have well defined understanding of the target customer, the use cases they should map out or you should map out the motivations for motion between each.

我认为你的计划从免费到顶级，他们应该对目标客户有明确的理解，他们应该制定用例，或者你应该制定每个用例之间的行动动机。

You're really clear about what are the drivers for someone to take a step from one plan to the next.

您非常清楚促使某人从一个计划迈向下一个计划的驱动因素是什么。

For Snyk, the real drivers to move from free to a paid plan, for example, is when you want to secure business critical code and you start having needs around governance and compliance.

例如，对于 Snyk 来说，从免费计划转向付费计划的真正驱动力是当您想要保护关键业务代码并且开始有治理和合规性方面的需求时。

Ben Williams: I think the other interesting dimension is of how you approach trials.

本·威廉姆斯：我认为另一个有趣的方面是你如何进行试验。

Like with most things.

就像大多数事情一样。

I think we're still figuring that out at Snyk.

我认为 Snyk 仍在解决这个问题。

I don't know that there's ever a perfect answer or even a correct answer here.

我不知道这里有没有完美的答案，甚至不知道有没有正确的答案。

Certainly different from product to product.

当然，不同的产品是不同的。

We have a self-serve trial to support time box evaluation of some of the capabilities that are reserved for our paid plans.

我们有一个自助试用版，以支持对为我们的付费计划保留的一些功能进行时间​​框评估。

But we're intentional in revisiting the model periodically.

但我们有意定期重新审视该模型。

It's important I think to regularly challenge yourselves to ensure you don't fall into the trap of simply assuming what was best fit in the past is best fit now and in the future.

我认为定期挑战自己很重要，以确保您不会陷入简单地假设过去最适合现在和未来的陷阱。

What if the trial duration was limited by some dimension of usage instead of time?

如果试用持续时间受到某些使用维度而不是时间的限制怎么办？

Or what if we didn't have a trial at all but put more into the free plan with appropriate limits?

或者，如果我们根本没有试用，而是在适当的限制下将更多内容放入免费计划中，该怎么办？

How might making those changes impact our growth model?

这些改变会如何影响我们的增长模式？

Ben Williams: It's not always easy to answer those questions, but I think there are some ways that you could can help test there for example.

Ben Williams：回答这些问题并不总是那么容易，但我认为有一些方法可以帮助您进行测试。

You might cohort trial users and teams who have low engagement and don't convert during the trial and then when the trial ends, drop them back into a new enhanced freak plan and monitor engagement there.

您可以将参与度较低且在试用期间未转化的试用用户和团队分组，然后当试用结束时，将他们放回到新的增强型怪胎计划中并在那里监控参与度。

So there're some things you do, but I think that habit of continuously challenging yourselves and reevaluating whether the model, the specific delineations between the plans and how you support evaluation and the motion between those plans, I think it's really important to do that.

所以你要做一些事情，但我认为不断挑战自己并重新评估模型、计划之间的具体划分以及你如何支持评估以及这些计划之间的动议的习惯，我认为这样做非常重要。

And also when it comes to PLG and sales, we talked about the self-serve motion.

当谈到 PLG 和销售时，我们讨论了自助服务动议。

Obviously, it's big and important for Snyk, but the sales led motion critically large as well and significantly impactful.

显然，这对 Snyk 来说意义重大且重要，但销售主导动议也非常大且具有显着影响力。

You need to think about the plan design and those motions across both aspects of PLG and the sales led motion.

您需要考虑计划设计以及 PLG 和销售主导动议两个方面的动议。

When you have a strong PLG foundation that is inclusive of a product-led sales motion, you're going to be in a really powerful position from the perspective of having a significant volume of highly qualified leads that are coming from the product.

当您拥有强大的 PLG 基础（包括以产品为主导的销售活动）时，从拥有大量来自产品的高素质销售线索的角度来看，您将处于非常有利的地位。

We actually track a metric that we call product-driven revenue, which basically accounts for all revenue in customers where we saw meaningful value-based activity in the product before there was any sales contact.

我们实际上跟踪一个称为产品驱动收入的指标，它基本上占客户的所有收入，在有任何销售联系之前，我们在产品中看到了有意义的基于价值的活动。

And that really tells actually a super interesting story about the PLG efficiency of your company across all revenue channels, self-serve and sales-led.

这确实讲述了一个超级有趣的故事，关于贵公司在所有收入渠道（自助服务和销售主导）中的 PLG 效率。

And what's fascinating there is that the product-driven cohort contribute a relatively greater amount to net retention.

令人着迷的是，产品驱动群体对净留存率的贡献相对较大。

So when you think about packaging, you know really need to think about and understand that macro level contribution of the freemium motion and know what you're trying to optimize for balancing revenue today versus potential future revenue.

因此，当您考虑包装时，您知道确实需要考虑和理解免费增值运动的宏观贡献，并了解您正在尝试优化哪些内容以平衡当前收入与未来潜在收入。

Lenny: Is that increase in net revenue retention from product-led leads mostly because they start at a cheaper price, do you think?

莱尼：您认为，以产品为主导的销售线索带来的净收入保留的增加主要是因为它们的起始价格更便宜吗？

Or is it more that they just end up being better customers?

或者更多的是他们最终成为更好的客户？

Ben Williams: It's a great question.

本·威廉姆斯：这是一个很好的问题。

I'm not sure I have a good answer for that.

我不确定我对此有一个好的答案。

Ben Williams: I'm still trying to figure that out.

本·威廉姆斯：我仍在努力解决这个问题。

Lenny: It's a good prompt to have people adding more customers in seats.

莱尼：这是一个很好的提示，可以让人们在座位上添加更多顾客。

You talked about the importance to figure out the trial length and what to put in the trial and free and things like that.

您谈到了确定试用期长度以及在试用版和免费版中添加哪些内容等的重要性。

Is there anything that just has surprised you?

有什么事情让你感到惊讶吗？

Something you've learned from iterating on that comes to mind?

你从迭代中学到了什么？

Ben Williams: I wouldn't say surprised me per se, but it's something that I think it's perhaps obvious in retrospect and that is that companies of different sizes, of different complexities of different industries from those that are very highly regulated to the other end of the spectrum, they're going to take different lengths of time to need to evaluate properly.

本·威廉姆斯：我本身并不感到惊讶，但回想起来，我认为这可能是显而易见的，那就是不同规模的公司、不同行业的不同复杂性的公司，从那些受到高度监管的公司到另一端的公司，他们将需要不同长度的时间来进行正确的评估。

So being able to cater for those in some way, whether it might be dynamic trial lengths or whether it be trial lengths that are based on usage or things like that, I think it becomes really important.

因此，能够以某种方式满足这些需求，无论是动态试用长度还是基于使用情况的试用长度或类似的东西，我认为这变得非常重要。

That's something to be thinking about for sure.

这是肯定要考虑的事情。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

That's a great learning.

这是一个很好的学习。

I know Elena talks a lot about how trials often, screw you because you don't give people enough time to really evaluate it a company, so that makes sense.

我知道埃琳娜经常谈论试验经常会搞砸你，因为你没有给人们足够的时间来真正评估一家公司，所以这是有道理的。

Last tactical question that I wanted to touch on is around activation milestones.

我想谈的最后一个战术问题是关于激活里程碑的。

I'm doing a survey right now with Yuri that I think will come out before this episode airs.

我现在正在和尤里一起进行一项调查，我认为该调查会在本集播出之前公布。

But anyway, in real time, I'm curious how you think about setting what the activation milestone is for a new Snyk user.

但无论如何，实时地，我很好奇您如何考虑为新的 Snyk 用户设置激活里程碑。

So maybe just share briefly how you think about what is an activation milestone?

那么，也许只是简单分享一下您如何看待什么是激活里程碑？

Why is that important?

为什么这很重要？

And then how you define that for Snyk?

那么你如何为 Snyk 定义这一点？

What is the milestone of a user is activated for your product?

您的产品激活用户的里程碑是什么？

Ben Williams: First of all, what is activation?

Ben Williams：首先，什么是激活？

So for us, activation is indicative of the team forming a habit around the usage of Snyk.

因此，对我们来说，激活表明团队形成了使用 Snyk 的习惯。

And when I say the usage, I actually mean deriving core value, which is ultimately fixing vulnerabilities.

当我说用法时，我实际上指的是衍生核心价值，即最终修复漏洞。

It's not just logging in.

这不仅仅是登录。

It's not even just finding vulnerabilities, it's fixing vulnerabilities.

它甚至不仅仅是发现漏洞，而是修复漏洞。

So building a habit around that.

因此，围绕这一点养成习惯。

And the reason I say team instead of using them is, and we actually base most of our definitions of activation engagement around teams.

我说团队而不是使用它们的原因是，我们实际上大部分关于激活参与的定义都是围绕团队进行的。

It's really important because ultimately security is a team sport.

这非常重要，因为归根结底，安全是一项团队运动。

That team might be one person, which case a user is equivalent to team, but often a team is multiple people and we actually expect different people to fulfill different parts of the team activation journey.

该团队可能是一个人，在这种情况下，用户相当于团队，但团队通常由多人组成，我们实际上期望不同的人完成团队激活过程的不同部分。

Ben Williams: We also want to enumerate aggregate level activity around fix that sometimes happens off-platform where we can't explicitly measure it at the user level.

Ben Williams：我们还想枚举有关修复的总体级别活动，这些活动有时发生在平台外，我们无法在用户级别明确测量它。

So in the activation process, we have set up moments, aha moments and habit moments and our habit moments that we define as a team being activated, it's related to fixing vulnerabilities within 30 days of team creation.

所以在激活过程中，我们设置了时刻、顿悟时刻和习惯时刻，我们定义的习惯时刻是一个团队被激活，它与团队创建后30天内修复漏洞有关。

And the reason that is chosen, it's because there is a significant correlation with downstream.

而之所以选择，是因为与下游有显着的相关性。

And in that case with activation three month retention and retention again based on, again, not just coming back and logging in but still fixing.

在这种情况下，激活三个月的保留和再次保留不仅基于返回并登录，而且仍然修复。

So teams, that fix of vulnerability within their first 30 days are much more likely to still be fixing three months later.

因此，在前 30 天内修复漏洞的团队更有可能在三个月后继续修复。

Lenny: That's really interesting.

莱尼：这真的很有趣。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

How did you come up with that number?

你是怎么得出这个数字的？

Was there a decision scientist that looked at some inflection of at 30 days, and it's probably not exactly 30 in real life, but it's like a nice round number that's close enough, right?

是否有一位决策科学家研究了 30 天的一些变化，在现实生活中它可能不完全是 30，但它就像一个足够接近的漂亮整数，对吗？

Ben Williams: Yep, that's it.

本·威廉姆斯：是的，就是这样。

So there absolutely was a decision scientist in involved thankfully.

值得庆幸的是，绝对有一位决策科学家参与其中。

We had to collect a lot of baseline data first.

我们必须首先收集大量基线数据。

So after we built out the data platform, we needed actually to wait for bit to build a good data set.

所以当我们搭建了数据平台之后，其实我们需要等待一点时间来搭建一个好的数据集。

We did a huge amount of quantum analysis, a lot of splunking of the data, applying ML models along with a bunch of supporting call research as well.

我们进行了大量的量子分析、大量的数据分析、应用机器学习模型以及大量支持呼叫研究。

But we started really with identifying the corpus personas and they used cases, different roles of different users within the team based activation journey, defining our retention metric, which is still fixing.

但我们实际上是从识别语料库角色开始的，他们使用了案例、基于团队的激活旅程中不同用户的不同角色，定义了我们的保留指标，该指标仍在修复中。

It's whether a team is fixed.

就是团队是否固定。

Along with natural usage behavior and expected natural usage frequency.

以及自然使用行为和预期自然使用频率。

And then we found the habit moment that ultimately most strongly correlated with improved long-term retention.

然后我们发现最终与改善长期保留最密切相关的习惯时刻。

And most of the numbers side of things came out of our ML ops platform.

大多数数字方面的事情都来自我们的机器学习操作平台。

Ben Williams: But after that, we then worked back to figure out that's the habit moment.

本·威廉姆斯：但在那之后，我们又回过头来弄清楚这就是习惯时刻。

That's what we see as activation, but there's a set of steps that teams need to get there.

这就是我们所说的激活，但团队需要采取一系列步骤才能实现这一目标。

So what's the aha moment before that?

那么在那之前的顿悟时刻是什么？

What's the setup moment and what are the individual steps that the team needs to go through to reach that set up moment?

什么是准备时刻？团队需要经历哪些单独步骤才能达到该准备时刻？

So that's the overall process and ultimately it's a really strong model that allows us then to feed in the set of user level behaviors that we know can influence those different steps on that path to activation.

这就是整个过程，最终它是一个非常强大的模型，允许我们输入一组用户级别的行为，我们知道这些行为可以影响激活路径上的不同步骤。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I'm excited to get this post out and that's a really good anecdote of how a company comes up with it and what they set.

我很高兴能发表这篇文章，这是一个关于公司如何想出它以及他们设定什么的非常好的轶事。

I also just thought of another question I may start asking everybody.

我也刚刚想到另一个问题我可以开始问大家。

I know I keep saying we're going to wrap this up, but here's a question and if it doesn't work, we'll get rid of it.

我知道我一直在说我们要结束这个问题，但这里有一个问题，如果它不起作用，我们就会摆脱它。

You mentioned a bunch of tools that you use and I'm curious, if you had to think of what are the five most important/valuable SaaS products to your organization other than the obvious ones like Salesforce?

您提到了您使用的一堆工具，我很好奇，除了 Salesforce 等显而易见的产品之外，您是否必须考虑对您的组织来说最重要/最有价值的 5 个 SaaS 产品是什么？

What comes to mind?

我想到了什么？

Ben Williams: When you say organization, do you mean Snyk at large or do you mean the growth?

Ben Williams：当你说组织时，你是指整个 Snyk 还是指成长？

Lenny: Let's say, let's start with growth and see where it goes.

莱尼：让我们从增长开始，看看它会走向何方。

Ben Williams: Okay.

本·威廉姆斯：好的。

So I'm going to say Amplitude, first of all.

所以我首先要说的是振幅。

Segment as a means to be able to get our data from the products to Amplitude and to everywhere else that cares about it.

分段作为一种手段，能够将我们的数据从产品获取到 Amplitude 以及其他任何关心它的地方。

Whether that be a downstream BI system, Snowflake can looker on top of that, or system marketing automation systems like Marketo and stuff like that.

无论是下游 BI 系统，Snowflake 都可以在其之上进行查看，或者是 Marketo 等系统营销自动化系统。

So I'd say Amplitude.

所以我会说振幅。

I will next say full story, which is absolutely fantastic for session replays of course.

接下来我将讲述完整的故事，这对于会议重播来说绝对是非常棒的。

And it bridges that gap between .

它弥合了之间的差距。

I would say userinterviews.com, which is comparable to usertesting.com, both of them amazing services in terms of getting fast curated access to individuals to participate in user research.

我想说的是 userinterviews.com，它与 usertesting.com 相当，两者在快速组织访问个人参与用户研究方面都提供令人惊叹的服务。

Sprig is another one.

小枝是另一种。

So Sprig is a fantastic in-app survey platform, which is what we primarily use it for, but it also does a bunch of other cool stuff in terms of being able to test UX designs as well in-app.

所以 Sprig 是一个很棒的应用内调查平台，这就是我们主要使用它的目的，但它在能够测试 UX 设计以及应用内方面也做了很多其他很酷的事情。

How many have I said?

我说了多少？

Lenny: I think four.

莱尼：我想有四个。

If there's anything else, you could add a fifth.

如果还有什么，你可以添加第五个。

If not, we can move on.

如果没有，我们可以继续。

That's awesome.

太棒了。

This is a really interesting list.

这是一个非常有趣的列表。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Is there anything for in the wider product team that also comes to mind that you guys find useful?

你们认为在更广泛的产品团队中还有什么有用的东西吗？

Ben Williams: Airtable.

本·威廉姆斯：Airtable。

In fact, Airtable for growth and product, just so flexible.

事实上，Airtable 对于增长和产品来说，就是这么灵活。

It's just you can do anything.

只是你可以做任何事情。

And in fact, if we think about growth, I should have mentioned that first because that's where we keep most of our experiment plans and knowledge base and our user research base.

事实上，如果我们考虑增长，我应该首先提到这一点，因为这是我们保存大部分实验计划、知识库和用户研究库的地方。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

I like this question.

我喜欢这个问题。

I'm going to start asking it.

我要开始问了。

This is great.

这太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

That was a precursor tour, very exciting lightning round.

那是一场前奏，非常令人兴奋的闪电回合。

I'm just going to ask you a bunch of rapid fire questions, just answer whatever comes to mind.

我只是要问你一堆连珠炮般的问题，你想到什么就回答什么。

We'll keep it short and quick.

我们会保持简短和快速。

Question one, what are two or three books that you recommend most to other people?

问题一，你最向别人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Ben Williams: I have been dreading this question as there are too many.

本·威廉姆斯：我一直害怕这个问题，因为问题太多了。

So I'm pick a couple that I've enjoyed reading in recent months.

所以我选择了最近几个月我喜欢读的几本。

So for product and growth geeks like me, or in fact anyone with more than a passing interest in data, I'll recommend "How to Measure Anything" by Douglas Hubbard.

因此，对于像我这样的产品和增长极客，或者事实上任何对数据感兴趣的人，我会推荐道格拉斯·哈伯德（Douglas Hubbard）的《如何衡量任何事物》。

Second up, you had Marty Cagan and he mentioned the book "Sprint" by Jake Knapp and John Zeratsky and I love that book, but personally their "Make Time" book.

其次，马蒂·凯根（Marty Cagan）提到了杰克·纳普（Jake Knapp）和约翰·泽拉茨基（John Zeratsky）写的《冲刺》（Sprint）一书，我喜欢那本书，但我个人喜欢他们的《创造时间》（Make Time）书。

It was something that radically changed my relationship with information and I recommend that to all time staff, product people out there.

这从根本上改变了我与信息的关系，我向所有员工、产品人员推荐这一点。

And for number three, I'm going to say, "This is How They Tell Me the World Ends" by Nicole Perlroth, which gives an amazing view into the world of digital espionage.

对于第三点，我要说的是 Nicole Perlroth 的《他们告诉我世界是这样结束的》，它为数字间谍世界提供了令人惊叹的视角。

Lenny: Oh, I read that book.

莱尼：哦，我读过那本书。

Tim Ferris recommended that at one point.

蒂姆·费里斯（Tim Ferris）曾经推荐过这一点。

That is a wild ass book.

那是一本野书。

Very beautiful.

很漂亮。

Cool.

凉爽的。

I love these recommendations.

我喜欢这些建议。

All right.

好的。

Great choices.

很棒的选择。

Favorite podcast other than the podcast you're currently on

除了您当前正在收听的播客之外最喜欢的播客

Ben Williams: Maybe "Acquired" with Ben Gilbert and David Rosenthal.

本·威廉姆斯：也许是与本·吉尔伯特和大卫·罗森塔尔一起“获得”的。

I just wish I had enough time to listen to them all.

我只是希望我有足够的时间来聆听他们所有人的声音。

Lenny: They're very long.

莱尼：它们很长。

I was just at an event where they interviewed someone live as a live podcast.

我刚刚参加了一个活动，他们以现场播客的形式现场采访了某人。

That was very cool.

那太酷了。

Those guys were pros.

那些人都是职业选手。

What's a favorite recent movie or TV show?

最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Ben Williams: So a movie, "Turning Red" on Disney Plus, which we love watching with our kids.

本·威廉姆斯：迪士尼+上的一部电影《变红》，我们喜欢和孩子们一起观看。

It was just fun.

这很有趣。

TV show, the most recent Curb Season had me in tears as usual.

电视节目，最近的遏制季节让我像往常一样流泪。

Lenny: They haven't had a new one in a while.

莱尼：他们已经有一段时间没有新的了。

So that's a little bit out there.

所以这有点离谱了。

Lenny: Oh, it is?

莱尼：哦，是吗？

I don't love watching that show.

我不喜欢看那个节目。

My wife loves it.

我的妻子喜欢它。

Cringe, painful.

畏缩，痛苦。

But watch it anyway.

但无论如何还是要注意一下。

Ben Williams: And my wife's actually the same.

本·威廉姆斯：我的妻子实际上也是一样。

She can't watch it because she cringes too much.

她不敢看，因为她太难受了。

Lenny: Oh man.

莱尼：天啊。

It's good for a product leader to have that enjoyment.

对于产品负责人来说，有这种享受是件好事。

Favorite interview question that you'd like to ask candidates?

您最想问候选人的面试问题是什么？

Ben Williams: Give a couple here if it's not cheating too much.

本·威廉姆斯：如果不是作弊太多的话，给几个吧。

First is one I like to ask when hiring for anyone actually really it's fast forward three years.

第一个是我在招聘任何人时喜欢问的一个问题，实际上已经快进三年了。

What's different about you then?

那你有什么不同呢？

A lot of people will default to telling you where they aspire to be in terms of role or title, but what I'm really looking for is signals of humility, of self-awareness around areas of personal and professional growth.

很多人会默认告诉你他们在角色或头衔方面渴望达到的目标，但我真正寻找的是谦逊的信号，以及围绕个人和职业发展领域的自我意识。

So people who can be open about where they think they need to work on to grow themselves as people.

因此，那些能够公开表达自己认为需要在哪些方面努力才能成长的人。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

Also, so there's just generally throughout interviews, I'm looking for curiosity.

另外，所以一般来说，在整个采访中，我都在寻找好奇心。

So day-to-day good PMs will be asking why as much as my six year old son does, which is a lot.

因此，日常的优秀产品经理会像我六岁的儿子一样问为什么，这是很多。

So I'll try and discern that through the course of the conversation.

所以我会尝试通过谈话的过程来辨别这一点。

It's not really a question, but something I'm looking for.

这并不是一个真正的问题，而是我正在寻找的东西。

Ben Williams: And then maybe I want to flip it because building on something that Adam Fishman was saying, his theme of evaluating the people dimension of folks you are potentially going to work with when you're interviewing with a company.

本·威廉姆斯：然后也许我想翻转它，因为建立在亚当·菲什曼所说的基础上，他的主题是评估当你面试一家公司时你可能会与之共事的人的人的维度。

And this was a question I got asked myself recently by a candidate, which I just thought would brilliant, and that was, "Tell me about the diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging initiatives that you've recently personally been involved with?" And it just felt like a really great way for them to be able to test alignment of their personal values with those of someone they'd be working with really closely.

这是我最近被一位候选人问自己的一个问题，我认为这个问题很精彩，那就是，“告诉我你最近亲自参与的多样性、公平性、包容性和归属感倡议？”对于他们来说，这感觉是一种非常好的方式，可以测试他们的个人价值观与他们密切合作的人的价值观的一致性。

So I love that.

所以我喜欢这样。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

By the way, I love how many callbacks to other episodes you're making.

顺便说一句，我喜欢你对其他剧集的多次回调。

You're definitely a power adopter of the podcast and I really appreciate that.

您绝对是播客的强力采用者，我真的很感激。

Lenny: Last question.

莱尼：最后一个问题。

Who else in the industry do you most respect as a thought leader, as a leader in general?

作为思想领袖，作为一般领导者，您在行业中最尊敬的还有谁？

Ben Williams: So maybe I'll cheat on this one a bit too, and I'm not going to combine it to the, when you say industry, I think security industry, but I'm going to look at the product domain and specifically product operations.

本·威廉姆斯：所以也许我也会在这一点上作弊，当你说行业时，我不会将其与安全行业结合起来，但我将关注产品领域，特别是产品运营。

And in my mind, there's not many people who know more in this area than Christine .

在我看来，没有多少人比克里斯汀更了解这方面的事情了。

So if you ever get chance to talk with her, I know that would be a fun conversation.

因此，如果您有机会与她交谈，我知道那将是一次有趣的谈话。

Many gems would be dropped, I think.

我想很多宝石都会被掉落。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

I will get her on this podcast.

我会让她加入这个播客。

That is my new goal.

这是我的新目标。

I had not heard of her and that's awesome.

我没听说过她，这太棒了。

Thank you for the suggestion.

谢谢你的建议。

Ben, this has been awesome.

本，这太棒了。

So many nuggets and stories and insights.

这么多的金块、故事和见解。

I so appreciate you being here.

我非常感谢你来到这里。

Two last questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out or learn more or maybe come work at Snyk?

如果人们想要联系或了解更多信息或者想来 Snyk 工作，可以在哪里在线找到您？

And then how can listeners be useful to you?

那么听众如何对你有用呢？

Ben Williams: Firstly, I'm of course want to say a big thanks for having me on, Lenny.

本·威廉姆斯：首先，我当然要非常感谢你邀请我参加，莱尼。

I love talking about all this stuff and really appreciate you being willing to let me bend your ear a little bit.

我喜欢谈论所有这些事情，并且非常感谢您愿意让我稍微倾听一下。

As to finding me, I'm a bit of a Twit when it comes to Twitter.

至于找到我，我在 Twitter 上有点傻。

I generally spend a bit more time over at LinkedIn, but you can find me on both of those platforms @SemanticBen.

我通常会在 LinkedIn 上花更多时间，但您可以在这两个平台上找到我@SemanticBen。

And in terms of how people can be useful to me, I'm starting to take on some additional clients in advisory capacity, so feel free to get in touch if you think I could help.

至于人们如何对我有用，我开始以咨询身份接待一些其他客户，所以如果您认为我可以提供帮助，请随时与我们联系。

Lenny: I can't not ask about Symantec Ben and what the story is there and before we let you go.

莱尼：在我们放你走之前，我不能不询问赛门铁克本以及那里的故事。

Ben Williams: Sure.

本·威廉姆斯：当然。

It's actually when I was at IBM, it was a focus that I had on linked data.

实际上，当我在 IBM 时，我关注的是链接数据。

Lenny: Became Semantic Ben.

莱尼：变成了语义本。

All right.

好的。

Awesome.

惊人的。

All right.

好的。

Ben, thank you so much for being here and thanks for listening.

本，非常感谢您来到这里并感谢您的聆听。

Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcast、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。

PART 4 OF 4 ENDS [01:31:22]

第 4 部分（共 4 部分）结束 [01:31:22]