'$46B of hard truths: Why founders fail and why you need to run toward fear | Ben Horowitz (a16z)'
Ben Horowitz: The worst thing that you do as a leader is you hesitate on the next decision.
本·霍洛维茨：作为领导者，你做的最糟糕的事情就是你对下一个决定犹豫不决。
The thing that causes you to hesitate is both decisions are horrible.
让你犹豫的是这两个决定都很糟糕。
Probably one of my bigger ones on that was we went public with $2 million in trailing 12 months revenue at 18 months old.
也许我最大的收获之一就是我们在上市 18 个月时，过去 12 个月的收入为 200 万美元。
That's obviously a bad idea.
这显然是个坏主意。
But the truth of it was the alternative was going bankrupt, and that's a worse idea.
但事实是，另一种选择就是破产，这是一个更糟糕的主意。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's a very difficult and painful to be a CEO, to be a founder.
Lenny Rachitsky：成为首席执行官、创始人是非常困难和痛苦的。
In spite of that.
尽管如此。
So many people want to start companies.
很多人想创办公司。
Ben Horowitz: The psychological muscle you have to build to be a great leader is to be able to click in the abyss and go, "Okay, that way's slightly better.
本·霍洛维茨：要成为一名伟大的领导者，你必须建立的心理力量是能够在深渊中点击并说：“好吧，这样会好一点。
We're going to go that way.
我们要走那条路。
If everybody agrees with the decision, then you didn't add any value because they would've done that without you." So the only value you ever add is when you make a decision that most people don't like.
如果每个人都同意这个决定，那么你就没有增加任何价值，因为如果没有你，他们也会这样做。”因此，你唯一增加的价值就是当你做出大多数人不喜欢的决定时。
Lenny Rachitsky: You are famous for writing one of the most popular pieces of literature for product managers.
Lenny Rachitsky：您因撰写最受产品经理欢迎的文学作品之一而闻名。
Ben Horowitz: What I was trying to get out in Good Product Manager, Bad Product Manager, was the job is fundamentally a leadership job.
Ben Horowitz：我在《好产品经理、坏产品经理》中试图表达的是，这项工作从根本上来说是一项领导工作。
And it's a tricky leadership job because nobody is actually reporting to you.
这是一项棘手的领导工作，因为没有人真正向你汇报。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's always this kind of sense that the PM is not the mini CEO.
Lenny Rachitsky：总有一种感觉，PM 不是迷你 CEO。
How dare you call yourself that?
你怎么敢这么称呼自己？
I actually think that's exactly what the PM is.
我实际上认为这正是总理的职责。
Ben Horowitz: It doesn't matter if you write a good, spec or you have a good interview or you do this or do that.
本·霍洛维茨：无论你是否写了一份好的规范，或者你有一个好的采访，或者你做了这个或那个，这并不重要。
What matters is that the product works.
重要的是产品有效。
Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Ben Horowitz.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：今天我的客人是本·霍洛维茨。
Ben is the Z in A16Z, the world's largest venture capital firm with over 46 billion in committed capital.
Ben 是 A16Z 中的 Z，A16Z 是全球最大的风险投资公司，承诺资本超过 460 亿美元。
They're investors in OpenAI, Cursor, Andrel, Databricks, Figma, basically every generational tech company.
他们是 OpenAI、Cursor、Andrel、Databricks、Figma 等基本上每一代科技公司的投资者。
He's also the author of two New York Times bestselling books, the Hard Thing About Hard Things and What You Do is Who you are.
他还是《纽约时报》两本畅销书的作者，《艰难的事情中的艰难》和《你所做的就是你是谁》。
Lenny Rachitsky: Ben is endlessly fascinating.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：本非常迷人。
He started a rap group when he was younger.
他年轻时组建了一个说唱乐队。
He started his career as a product manager and wrote the now famous Good Product Manager, Bad Product Manager piece.
他的职业生涯始于产品经理，并撰写了现在著名的《好产品经理，坏产品经理》一文。
In our wide-ranging conversation, we cover a ton of ground and Ben shares stories and insights that he's never shared anywhere else.
在我们广泛的谈话中，我们涵盖了大量的话题，本分享了他从未在其他地方分享过的故事和见解。
A huge thank you to Shaka Senghor, Ali Goetze, and Adam Newman for suggesting topics for this conversation.
非常感谢 Shaka Senghor、Ali Goetze 和 Adam Newman 为本次对话提出的主题。
If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。
It helps tremendously.
它有很大帮助。
And if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of 15 incredible products, including a year free of Lovable, Replit, Bolt, n8n, Linear, Superhuman, DScript, WhisperFlow, Gamma, Perplexity, Warp, Granola, Magic Patterns, RateCast, ChatPRD, and Mabin.
如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您将获得一年免费的 15 种令人难以置信的产品，包括一年免费的 Lovable、Replit、Bolt、n8n、Linear、Super human、DScript、WhisperFlow、Gamma、Perplexity、Warp、Granola、Magic Patterns、RateCast、ChatPRD 和 Mabin。
Check it out at lennysnewsletter.com and click Product Pass.
请访问 lennysnewsletter.com 查看并单击 Product Pass。
With that, I bring you Ben Horowitz.
接下来，我为您带来本·霍洛维茨。
Lenny Rachitsky: Today's episode is brought to you by DX, the developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers.
Lenny Rachitsky：今天的节目是由 DX 为您带来的，DX 是由领先研究人员设计的开发者智能平台。
To thrive in the AI era, organizations meet to adapt quickly.
为了在人工智能时代蓬勃发展，组织必须快速适应。
But many organization leaders struggle to answer pressing questions like which tools are working?
但许多组织领导者很难回答紧迫的问题，例如哪些工具有效？
How are they being used?
它们是如何使用的？
What's actually driving value?
真正推动价值的是什么？
DX provides the data and insights leaders need to navigate this shift.
DX 提供领导者应对这一转变所需的数据和见解。
With DX.
与DX。
Companies like Dropbox, Booking.com, Adyen, and Intercom get a deep understanding of how AI is providing value to their developers and what impact AI is having on engineering productivity.
Dropbox、Booking.com、Adyen 和 Intercom 等公司深入了解人工智能如何为其开发人员提供价值以及人工智能对工程生产力的影响。
Lenny Rachitsky: To learn more, visit DX's website at getdx.com/Lenny.
Lenny Rachitsky：要了解更多信息，请访问 DX 网站 getdx.com/Lenny。
That's getdx.com/Lenny.
那是 getdx.com/Lenny。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Basecamp.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Basecamp 为您带来。
Basecamp is the famously straightforward project management system from 37 Signals.
Basecamp 是 37 Signals 出品的一款简单明了的项目管理系统。
Most project management systems are either inadequate or frustratingly complex, but Basecamp is refreshingly clear.
大多数项目管理系统要么不充分，要么复杂得令人沮丧，但 Basecamp 却清晰得令人耳目一新。
It's simple to get started, easy to organize, and Basecamp's visual tools help you see exactly what everyone is working on and how all work is progressing.
上手简单，易于组织，Basecamp 的可视化工具可帮助您准确了解每个人正在做什么以及所有工作的进展情况。
Keep all your files and conversations about projects directly connected to the projects themselves, so that you always know where stuff is and you're not constantly switching contexts.
将有关项目的所有文件和对话直接与项目本身相关，以便您始终知道东西在哪里，并且不会经常切换上下文。
Lenny Rachitsky: Running a business is hard.
Lenny Rachitsky：经营企业很困难。
Managing your project should be easy.
管理您的项目应该很容易。
I've been a long-time fan of what 37 Signals has been up to, and I'm really excited to be sharing this with you.
我长期以来一直是 37 Signals 的粉丝，我很高兴能与您分享这一点。
Sign up for a free account at basecamp.com/lenny.
在 basecamp.com/lenny 注册免费帐户。
Get somewhere with Basecamp.
与 Basecamp 一起去某个地方。
Lenny Rachitsky: Ben, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.
Lenny Rachitsky：Ben，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。
Ben Horowitz: All right, thank you Lenny.
本·霍洛维茨：好的，谢谢莱尼。
Excited to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
I'm even more excited to have you here.: I want to start with a question that a close friend of yours suggested I ask you, Shaka Senghor.
我更高兴你能来到这里。：我想从你的一位密友建议我问你的问题开始，沙卡·桑戈尔。
So Shaka, he's, we could do an hour just on how interesting this guy and the things he's done.
所以沙卡，他，我们可以花一个小时来了解这个人有多有趣以及他所做的事情。
Ben Horowitz: Three hours on Joe Rogan that day.
本·霍洛维茨：那天和乔·罗根聊了三个小时。
He is very-
他非常——
Lenny Rachitsky: So we're not going to do that.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以我们不会那样做。
Just to give a glimpse, he was in prison for 19 years.
粗略地看一下，他已经在监狱里呆了19年了。
He was in solitary for seven years.
他被单独关押了七年。
He led a huge prison gang.
他领导着一个庞大的监狱团伙。
You wrote about him in your book as a great exemplar of great culture in the prison gang that he ran.
您在书中将他描述为他所管理的监狱团伙中伟大文化的典范。
So interesting.
太有趣了。
But something that he learned from you that he told me I need to ask you about is about success and how to be successful and how it's not what people think.
但他从你那里学到了一些东西，他告诉我我需要问你关于成功以及如何获得成功以及它为何不是人们所想的那样的问题。
And he said that you learned this lesson from a pilot.
他说你从飞行员那里学到了这个教训。
What is that story?
那是什么故事？
What is that lesson?
那节课是什么？
Ben Horowitz: I mean, I would say it's a long life lesson.
本·霍洛维茨：我的意思是，我想说这是一个漫长的人生教训。
But the pilot story is I actually, I ask people silly questions sometimes when they meet them.
但飞行员的故事实际上是我，有时当人们见面时我会问一些愚蠢的问题。
And so I met this gentleman who was a pilot and it was right around the time JFK Jr. crashed his airplane and ultimately died.
所以我遇到了这位飞行员先生，就在小肯尼迪的飞机坠毁并最终死亡的时候。
And I asked him, I was like, "What happened?" Because there's always the story in the press, and I know this from them writing about me or anything, is it's always what's the best narrative not what's true.
我问他，“发生了什么事？”因为媒体上总是有这样的故事，而且我从他们写的关于我或任何事情的文章中知道，这总是最好的叙述，而不是真实的。
So you can never actually find out what happened, you just find the best story version of what happened.
所以你永远无法真正了解发生了什么，你只能找到发生的事情的最佳故事版本。
Ben Horowitz: And the story in the press was all about, "Oh, he wasn't trained on instrumentation was flying at night." And I wanted to know is that right?
本·霍洛维茨：媒体上的报道都是这样的，“哦，他没有受过仪器仪表方面的培训，就在夜间飞行。”我想知道这是对的吗？
And the pilot said, "Well," he said, "really, it's like all plane crashes are a series of bad decisions.
飞行员说：“好吧，”他说，“真的，所有的飞机失事都是一系列错误的决定。
And none of the decisions by themselves is that bad, but when you add them up, it's bad."
就其本身而言，没有一个决定那么糟糕，但当你把它们加起来时，就很糟糕了。”
Ben Horowitz: So the first decision was he needed to get wherever he was going and that was the priority.
本·霍洛维茨：所以第一个决定是他需要到达他要去的地方，这是首要任务。
And in flying, that can't ever be the priority because there are conditions, there are things that happen.
在飞行中，这永远不可能成为优先事项，因为有条件，有事情发生。
And then the second one was, "Well, his timing of when the sun would go down was wrong." So he thought he'd be flying in sunlight and he wasn't.
然后第二个是，“好吧，他确定的太阳落山的时间是错误的。”所以他以为他会在阳光下飞行，但事实并非如此。
And then once he got up there, it was when the plane was going down making it go up was a bad decision because he was upside down.
当他到达那里时，飞机正在下降，所以让飞机上升是一个错误的决定，因为他是头朝下的。
And so it was like, I can't remember all the things, but this guy had 17 bad decisions in a row.
就好像，我不记得所有的事情了，但这家伙连续做了 17 个错误的决定。
And the big thing for me that I felt was really true is it's one decision leads to another.
对我来说，最重要的是，我认为一个决定会导致另一个决定。
And so if you can break psychologically, you can take the sunk cost, then that gets you out of a lot of bad paths.
因此，如果你能在心理上崩溃，你就能承担沉没成本，然后你就能摆脱很多糟糕的道路。
And then a little good decision may be difficult, but you have to believe it's going to lead to the next one.
然后，做出一个好的决定可能会很困难，但你必须相信它会导致下一个决定。
And a lot of success is about that.
许多成功都与此有关。
It's a small thing, a small thing that's hard to do that doesn't seem to have a high impact, but it leads to the next small hard to do thing and then eventually you get an outcome, so that was kind of the concept.
这是一件小事，一件很难做的小事，似乎不会产生很大的影响，但它会导致下一个很难做的小事，然后最终你会得到一个结果，所以这就是一个概念。
Lenny Rachitsky: So the lesson there is just success is just a bunch of little things.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以成功的教训只是一堆小事。
It's not this, "Cool, I got here in a big thing."
不是这样的，“酷，我来这里是为了一件大事。”
Ben Horowitz: If somebody were to write a story about me, they would be like, "Then Ben this really smart thing and blah, blah, blah, happy ending." But it really wasn't like that and I don't think it's like that for you or anybody.
本·霍洛维茨：如果有人要写一个关于我的故事，他们会说，“那么本，这个非常聪明的东西，等等，等等，美好的结局。”但事实并非如此，我认为对你或任何人来说都不是这样。
And I spent a lot of time with Shaka on how, because it's always your own psychology that gets you.
我花了很多时间和 Shaka 讨论如何做，因为总是你自己的心理在影响你。
And one of the most insightful things he said to me is, because most people who are in solitary for seven years, that's it.
他对我说的最有见地的事情之一是，因为大多数被单独监禁七年的人，就是这样。
You're insane.
你疯了。
You're never coming back from that.
你永远不会从那件事中回来。
It's just an impossible thing.
这简直就是一件不可能的事情。
But if you study his story, he actually really was massively self-improved coming out of solitary, and he wouldn't recommend that for anybody, just to be clear.
但如果你研究他的故事，你会发现他实际上从孤独中得到了巨大的自我提高，而且他不会向任何人推荐这一点，只是需要澄清一下。
It wasn't solitary.
它并不孤独。
But what it was was he changed, in solitary he was able to change a big set of beliefs that he had about himself that got him out of that.
但他改变的是，在孤独中，他能够改变他对自己的一大套信念，使他摆脱了困境。
Ben Horowitz: And the thing that his conclusion from it, which I thought was really interesting, he's like, "Look, was in prison for 19 years.
本·霍洛维茨：我认为他的结论非常有趣，他说，“看，他在监狱里呆了 19 年。
I was in solitary for seven.
我被单独关押了七年。
I come out, I can't rent an apartment, I can't vote, I can't get a gun, I can't do, no rights.
我出来了，我不能租房子，我不能投票，我不能拿枪，我不能做，没有权利。
None of that was anything compared to what I did to myself."
与我对自己所做的相比，这些都不算什么。”
Ben Horowitz: And I think that's very true for CEOs in general and people in general is all the things that you perceive that are happening to you that are bad, be it the systems against you or somebody undercuts you or racism or sexism or this or that or the other is very small compared to ...
本·霍洛维茨：我认为对于一般首席执行官和一般人来说，这是非常正确的，你认为发生在你身上的所有不好的事情，无论是针对你的系统，还是某人削弱你，或者种族主义或性别歧视，或者这个或那个或其他与......相比都非常小。
It means a lot if you believe it.
如果你相信的话，这意味着很多。
If you believe what people say about you, if you believe what they did to you, then that destroys you.
如果你相信人们对你的评价，如果你相信他们对你所做的事情，那么这就毁了你。
But if you go, "That's not me," you can overcome almost anything.
但如果你说“那不是我”，你几乎可以克服任何事情。
And he's got a new book out on that anyway that I think is very good because that's the, I'd say more than anything, that's the key to success.
无论如何，他出版了一本关于这方面的新书，我认为这本书非常好，因为我想说，这就是成功的关键。
Lenny Rachitsky: If you look at all the writing you've done, it's essentially about the struggle and pain and suffering of being a CEO, your first to Hard Thing About Hard Things.
莱尼·拉奇茨基（Lenny Rachitsky）：如果你看看你写的所有文章，你会发现它本质上是关于作为首席执行官的挣扎、痛苦和磨难，这是你第一次写《艰难的事情》。
There's a lot of talk these days about just how important struggle is and how valuable it is to go through struggle.
现在有很多人谈论斗争是多么重要以及经历斗争是多么有价值。
Jensen's big on this.
詹森对此很感兴趣。
He talks a lot about just you have to go through pain and suffering to be a great leader.
他说了很多关于你必须经历痛苦和磨难才能成为一名伟大的领导者。
Ben Horowitz: You don't really have a choice.
本·霍洛维茨：你真的别无选择。
That's true.
这是真的。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's something that I saw you share that I love, which is running towards fear versus running away from fear.
Lenny Rachitsky：我看到你分享了一些我喜欢的东西，那就是奔向恐惧与逃避恐惧。
Something that you tell all your leaders to work on.
您告诉所有领导者要努力去做的事情。
Easy to hear, hard to do.
听起来容易，做起来难。
We don't like doing things that are scary, running towards things that are scary.
我们不喜欢做可怕的事情，也不喜欢奔向可怕的事情。
Why is this so important?
为什么这如此重要？
Why is this something people need to learn to do?
为什么这是人们需要学习做的事情？
Ben Horowitz: Well, so the biggest mistake that you make, the worst thing that you do as a leader, there's things in your control and there's things out of your control and hesitation, that's generally the most destructive.
本·霍洛维茨：嗯，所以你犯的最大错误，你作为领导者所做的最糟糕的事情，有些事情在你的控制范围内，有些事情超出你的控制和犹豫，这通常是最具破坏性的。
And I go through all the ways that it's destructive, but it's extremely bad.
我经历了所有具有破坏性的方式，但这非常糟糕。
And the thing that causes you to hesitate is both decisions are horrible.
让你犹豫的是这两个决定都很糟糕。
It's that business school where you're going through a case study, "And if you had done that, then the company would have gone this way.
正是在那所商学院，你正在进行案例研究，“如果你这样做了，那么公司就会走这条路。
But if you had done that, it's a great success." That's not actually what happens to you as CEO.
但如果你做到了，那就是巨大的成功。”作为首席执行官，这实际上并不是发生在你身上的事情。
Ben Horowitz: What happens to as CEO, it's like, "Okay, if we rearchitect, this product, the architecture is not actually get us to where we need to go.
Ben Horowitz：作为首席执行官，会发生什么，就像，“好吧，如果我们重新设计这个产品，这个架构实际上并不能让我们到达我们需要去的地方。
I kind of know that.
我有点知道这一点。
But if we rearchitect it, we're going to probably miss all the features, miss the quarter, have trouble raising money, shudder, et cetera.
但如果我们重新架构它，我们可能会错过所有功能、错过季度、筹集资金方面遇到困难、不寒而栗等等。
So that's really bad.
所以这真的很糟糕。
And then not rearchitecting is really bad, and so I'm just going to try to and avoid this subject because I don't even want to deal with either of those." And that's the worst thing, because if action is the better choice and that's good.
然后不重新架构真的很糟糕，所以我只是想尝试避免这个话题，因为我什至不想处理其中任何一个。”这是最糟糕的事情，因为如果行动是更好的选择，那就太好了。
And then if you don't make an explicit decision, then the whole company's going to get nervous because they know that the architecture is whack and you got to fix it.
如果你不做出明确的决定，那么整个公司都会变得紧张，因为他们知道架构很糟糕，你必须修复它。
Ben Horowitz: And probably one of my bigger ones on that was we went public with $2 million in trailing 12 months revenue at 18 months old.
本·霍洛维茨（Ben Horowitz）：我最大的收获之一可能是我们在上市 18 个月时，过去 12 个月的收入为 200 万美元。
That's obviously a bad idea.
这显然是个坏主意。
I mean, there's no question that wasn't a bad idea.
我的意思是，毫无疑问这不是一个坏主意。
But the truth of it was the alternative because of where the private markets were was going bankrupt.
但事实是另一种选择，因为私人市场正在破产。
And that's a worse idea.
这是一个更糟糕的主意。
Ben Horowitz: And if you look at that time, March of 2001 when we went public, you just look at the number of CEOs that hesitated on that and didn't do it and went bankrupt.
本·霍洛维茨：如果你看看那个时候，2001 年 3 月我们上市的时候，你就会看到有多少首席执行官对此犹豫不决，没有这样做，最后破产了。
It's a lot.
很多。
And so that getting good at making a decision that everybody's going to go, "Wow, that was insane, Ben." The Wall Street Journal wrote a whole long story about how stupid I was.
因此，当每个人都善于做出决定时，都会说：“哇，这太疯狂了，本。” 《华尔街日报》写了一篇很长的故事来描述我是多么愚蠢。
And then Businessweek wrote a story called the IPO From Hell.
然后《商业周刊》写了一个故事，名为《来自地狱的首次公开募股》。
That was the name of our idea, the IPO from hell, which was accurate in a sense.
这就是我们的想法的名称，来自地狱的首次公开募股，从某种意义上说是准确的。
Ben Horowitz: So that's really bad, but it wasn't as bad, and this is why it's so scary you make that decision that's going to happen.
本·霍洛维茨：这确实很糟糕，但也没有那么糟糕，这就是为什么你做出即将发生的决定如此可怕。
I knew those stories would get written, there was no question.
我知道这些故事会被写下来，这是毫无疑问的。
And yeah, that's the kind of muscle.
是的，这就是那种肌肉。
So if you think about the psychological muscle you have to build to be a great leader is to be able to look in the abyss and go, "Okay, that way slightly better.
因此，如果你想成为一名伟大的领导者所必须具备的心理力量，那就是能够看到深渊并说：“好吧，这样会好一点。
We're going to go that way.
我们要走那条路。
And it's very hard to do." I would say it's a thing people struggle with.
而且这很难做到。”我想说这是人们挣扎的事情。
And it began something, should I fire the head of sales?
它开始了一些事情，我应该解雇销售主管吗？
So I don't want to have that conversation.
所以我不想进行这样的谈话。
And then I'll have to replace them.
然后我就得更换它们。
And then there's going to be a bad PR story.
然后就会有一个糟糕的公关故事。
And you can kind of quickly calculate all the bad stuff that's going to happen if you do it.
你可以快速计算出如果你这样做将会发生的所有不好的事情。
But if you don't do it, that's probably going to be much worse and that's why you have to run towards the pain in darkness.
但如果你不这样做，情况可能会更糟，这就是为什么你必须奔向黑暗中的痛苦。
Lenny Rachitsky: What is the advice you share with founders?
Lenny Rachitsky：您与创始人分享的建议是什么？
Because as you said, it's very hard to do this, just what helps them actually get better at this?
因为正如你所说，做到这一点非常困难，那么什么可以帮助他们真正做得更好呢？
Is it just Ben being by their side telling them this is how it is?
难道只是本在他们身边告诉他们事情就是这样吗？
Is there anything else you can share?
您还有什么可以分享的吗？
Ben Horowitz: No, no. I would say this is one where I can't really coach you to be good at this.
本·霍洛维茨：不，不。我想说的是，这是我无法真正指导你擅长这一点的地方。
I can point it out so that you recognize that you were slow or whatever.
我可以指出这一点，以便你认识到你是缓慢的或其他什么。
But it's kind of like I always liken when I talk to them, it's like football.
但这就像我在和他们交谈时总是比喻的那样，就像足球一样。
You can have a really fast great athlete, but if they don't trust their eyes, if they don't run to the ball when they see it, if they think, "Oh, maybe that was a fake," then they're that step slower and then they'll never be as good.
你可以有一个非常快的伟大运动员，但如果他们不相信自己的眼睛，如果他们看到球时不跑向球，如果他们想，“哦，也许那是假的”，那么他们的步伐就慢了，然后他们永远不会那么好。
And CEOs are like that.
CEO 就是这样。
If you don't trust what you see and you don't run at it, then you're just not going to be good.
如果你不相信你所看到的，也不去努力，那么你就不会做好。
And it's hard to get CEOs not to hesitate.
而且很难让首席执行官们不犹豫。
But look, the thing that does help is they look at it and I look at it and I confirm, "No, that is as it appears."
但是看，真正有帮助的是他们看着它，我看着它，然后我确认，“不，看起来就是这样。”
Ben Horowitz: And sometimes they're afraid of the conversation.
本·霍洛维茨：有时他们害怕谈话。
So that one I can help with.
这样我就可以帮忙了。
So A CEO might be afraid, like they want to do something but they don't know how to say it.
因此，首席执行官可能会感到害怕，就像他们想做某事但不知道该怎么说一样。
They don't know how to have the conversation with the employee so I can walk them through that.
他们不知道如何与员工交谈，所以我可以引导他们完成这个过程。
I had an instance where the CEO said, "Hey, I need your help, Ben.
我有一个例子，首席执行官说：“嘿，我需要你的帮助，本。
My CTO, he's an asshole." And I was like, "Okay, great." I said, "But you're not going to fire him because I know he's a good CTO, or are you asking me should you fire him?" He said, "No, no, I don't want to fire him." And I was like, "So you're asking me what to do?
我的首席技术官，他是个混蛋。”我当时想，“好吧，太好了。”我说：“但是你不会解雇他，因为我知道他是一位优秀的首席技术官，或者你是在问我是否应该解雇他？”他说：“不，不，我不想解雇他。”我当时想，“那么你是在问我该怎么办？
You don't know how have that conversation with him about being an without him quitting.
如果他不放弃，你不知道如何与他谈论成为一名“人”。
That's what you're saying?" And he goes, "Yeah, that's the problem."
你是说这个啊？”他说：“是的，这就是问题所在。”
Ben Horowitz: And so I go, "Well, why is he an asshole?" And he says, "Well, he's an asshole because the other day he made a very junior young woman in our finance organization cry." And I was like, "Yeah, I got you." I said, "Look, this is what I would say to him.
本·霍洛维茨：所以我就想，“好吧，为什么他是个混蛋？”他说：“好吧，他是个混蛋，因为有一天他让我们金融组织中一位非常资历的年轻女性哭了。”我当时想，“是的，我找到你了。”我说：“听着，这就是我要对他说的话。
I'd say I just sit them down and I would say, 'Look, you're a really good director of engineering because you do a great job at managing the team, get the products out, all that.
我会说，我只是让他们坐下来，我会说，‘听着，你是一位非常优秀的工程总监，因为你在管理团队、推出产品等方面做得很好。
But you're not really a CTO because to be a CTO, you have to be effective with other parts of the organization.
但你并不是真正的首席技术官，因为要成为一名首席技术官，你必须与组织的其他部门保持高效。
You can't just be effective only with engineering.
你不能仅仅通过工程来发挥作用。
And making somebody cry, she's never going to do anything you want.
让某人哭泣，她永远不会做你想做的任何事情。
You lost all effectiveness with all of finance by doing that.
这样做你就失去了所有财务的效率。
And so if you want to get good at that, I'll help you.
所以如果你想擅长于此，我会帮助你。
I'll work with you on it, but if you don't, I'm going to have to hire a CTO at some point because obviously I need that.'" And then he was like, "Oh, okay, I can have that conversation.
我会和你一起解决这个问题，但如果你不这样做，我将不得不在某个时候聘请一名首席技术官，因为显然我需要这个。’”然后他说，“哦，好吧，我可以进行这样的谈话。
I can't have the conversation that, 'Hey, you're an asshole,' because I don't want them to quit, but I can have the conversation that's more specific." And a lot of getting people not to hesitate is just getting them over that.
我不能进行‘嘿，你是个混蛋’这样的对话，因为我不想让他们退出，但我可以进行更具体的对话。”很多让人们不再犹豫的方法只是让他们克服这个问题。
Ben Horowitz: And so often, and I would say early in a CEO's career, a lot of it is just not knowing how to have the conversation.
本·霍洛维茨：我想说，在首席执行官职业生涯的早期，很多时候都是因为不知道如何进行对话。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's also I imagine an element of I just want to be liked.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想象还有一个因素就是我只是想被人喜欢。
I don't want people to hate me.
我不想让人们恨我。
You have this great line that you want to be liked and respected in the long run, not the short run.
你有一条伟大的路线，你希望从长远来看，而不是短期内，受到喜爱和尊重。
Ben Horowitz: Yeah, that's tricky.
本·霍洛维茨：是的，这很棘手。
By the way, I have to deal with this in the firm too, and people want to be entrepreneur friendly.
顺便说一句，我在公司也必须处理这个问题，人们希望对企业家友好。
I'm like, "No, it's not friendly.
我想，“不，这不友好。
Respectful.
恭敬。
But you've got to be able to tell them the truth in a way that you probably don't tell most of your friends the truth." Because your friend, look anthropologically, we want people to like us.
但你必须能够以一种你可能不会告诉大多数朋友真相的方式告诉他们真相。”因为你的朋友，从人类学的角度来看，我们希望人们喜欢我们。
It's just so they don't throw us to the lion or whatever.
这样他们就不会把我们扔给狮子或其他什么东西。
That's just kind of a thing.
这只是一件事。
So you say tell people what they want to hear, but in dealing at a company level in a context of you're on the board of somebody's company, you've got to be able to tell them what they don't want to hear.
所以你说告诉人们他们想听什么，但在公司层面上，当你是某人公司的董事会成员时，你必须能够告诉他们他们不想听到什么。
That's the most important thing you're going to say.
这是你要说的最重要的事情。
Ben Horowitz: And yes, they're not going to like it when you say it, there's no question.
本·霍洛维茨：是的，当你这么说时，他们不会喜欢，这是毫无疑问的。
But over time it could save the company.
但随着时间的推移，它可以拯救公司。
And all the most important things I've said are things that I've said to CEOs that they did not want to hear.
我所说的所有最重要的事情都是我对首席执行官说的，但他们不想听。
And that's what the leadership is about.
这就是领导力的意义所在。
If everybody agrees with the decision, then you didn't add any value because they would've done that without you.
如果每个人都同意这个决定，那么你就没有增加任何价值，因为如果没有你，他们也会这样做。
So the only value you ever add is when you make a decision that most people don't like and that's where leadership comes in because you know that's where it's got to get to.
因此，你所增加的唯一价值就是当你做出大多数人不喜欢的决定时，这就是领导力发挥作用的地方，因为你知道这就是它必须到达的地方。
And that's the thing that takes practice.
这就是需要练习的事情。
Ben Horowitz: I think when Jensen talks about luck, you've got to get to near death to get yourself to do that.
本·霍洛维茨：我认为当詹森谈到运气时，你必须接近死亡才能让自己做到这一点。
That's true.
这是真的。
It's hard to build that if everything's going great.
如果一切进展顺利，那么就很难建立这样的目标。
And I would say the CEOs who had an easy run of it for their, let's say, they just launched a product that's an instant hit, it's very hard for them to develop that muscle compared to the ones that built a company like Jensen where he gutted it out for multiple decades before they had big success.
我想说的是，那些轻松运作的首席执行官，比方说，他们刚刚推出了一款立即火爆的产品，与那些创建像詹森这样的公司的首席执行官相比，他们很难发展出这种力量，而詹森在取得巨大成功之前，他花了几十年的时间将其彻底淘汰。
Lenny Rachitsky: Clearly, it's very difficult and painful to be a CEO, to be a founder.
Lenny Rachitsky：显然，作为一名首席执行官和创始人是非常困难和痛苦的。
In spite of that so many people want to start companies.
尽管如此，还是有很多人想创办公司。
So many people dream of having their own company.
很多人梦想拥有自己的公司。
Who is not right to start a company?
哪些人不适合创办公司？
What advice do you share with folks that are thinking about starting a company that may not understand just what they're about to get into?
对于那些正在考虑创办一家可能不了解自己将要进入的公司的人，您有何建议？
Ben Horowitz: Yeah, so it's funny.
本·霍洛维茨：是的，所以这很有趣。
So there's a couple of things.
所以有几件事。
John Reed, who was the CEO of Citigroup when I started as CEO, said to me something I never forget.
我刚开始担任首席执行官时，约翰·里德 (John Reed) 是花旗集团的首席执行官，他对我说了一些我永远不会忘记的话。
He said, "Ben, the only reason to start a company is because you have an irrational desire to do so, because it's not worth the money." And I was like, "Wow, he doesn't even quantify how much money and this guy's running Citigroup." So he is a very numbers, banking guy and he didn't quantify it.
他说：“本，创办公司的唯一原因是因为你有一种非理性的愿望，因为它不值那么多钱。”我当时想，“哇，他甚至没有量化多少钱，而这个人正在经营花旗集团。”所以他是一个非常注重数字的银行家，但他没有量化它。
And I remember when we sold LoudCloud for $1.6 billion, I remember thinking, "Wow, that wasn't worth the money whatsoever."
我记得当我们以 16 亿美元出售 LoudCloud 时，我记得当时想，“哇，那根本不值这个钱。”
Ben Horowitz: So I think if you're doing it for the money, that's a very bad reason and it will be extremely difficult to get you an outcome.
本·霍洛维茨：所以我认为，如果你是为了钱而这样做，那是一个非常糟糕的理由，而且你将很难得到结果。
You really have to have an irrational desire to do something larger than yourself to improve the world in some way that somehow that is your purpose.
你确实必须有一种非理性的愿望，想做一些比你自己更大的事情，以某种方式改善世界，这就是你的目的。
And if you don't feel that, then you'll never get through it.
如果你没有这种感觉，那么你将永远无法度过难关。
It's just too many bad things happen along the way.
只是一路上发生了太多不好的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: So then how do you think of founders that are looking around for ideas that brainstorm, that look for market opportunities versus come from, "I have this a mission, I've got to do this thing in the world."
Lenny Rachitsky：那么你如何看待那些四处寻找创意、集思广益、寻找市场机会的创始人，而不是“我有一个使命，我必须在世界上做这件事”。
Ben Horowitz: My business partner Mark always talks about that.
本·霍洛维茨：我的商业伙伴马克总是谈论这个。
So if you have a product that forces you to build a company, that is a great case of it, right?
因此，如果你有一个产品迫使你建立一家公司，那就是一个很好的例子，对吗？
Okay, you built something and the world wants it and you need a company to deliver it, you know, already have the right product.
好吧，你建造了一些东西，全世界都想要它，你需要一家公司来交付它，你知道，已经有了合适的产品。
And so that's very helpful.
这非常有帮助。
Ben Horowitz: I think there are cases of people, I think Hewlett-Packard was built that way, that they're like, "Okay, we've got to build technology," it was that abstract, "We've got built in technology for the world." And then they started with, "Well, what do you need?" They called it the next bench thing.
本·霍洛维茨：我认为有些人，我认为惠普就是这样建立的，他们会说，“好吧，我们必须构建技术”，就是这么抽象，“我们已经为世界构建了技术。”然后他们开始说：“那么，你需要什么？”他们称之为下一个替补席。
What does the engineer sitting next to me need?
坐在我旁边的工程师需要什么？
The next engineer on the bench?
下一个坐在替补席上的工程师？
So how they define the first set of products.
那么他们是如何定义第一套产品的。
Ben Horowitz: So it can work the other way, but I think the thing that is in common is it's just a very abstract idea that you have to build something that's going to be important that people are going to like working there, people are going to benefit from the products.
本·霍洛维茨：所以它可以以另一种方式工作，但我认为共同点是这只是一个非常抽象的想法，你必须构建一些重要的东西，让人们喜欢在那里工作，人们将从产品中受益。
You have to have some weird concept other than, "Oh, this is going to be successful and I'm going to make a lot of money." I think way better off taking Zuck's offer at Meta and just doing that.
除了“哦，这会成功，我会赚很多钱”以外，你还必须有一些奇怪的想法。我认为接受扎克在 Meta 的提议并这样做会更好。
That's a way better deal.
这是一个更好的交易方式。
Lenny Rachitsky: Along these lines, something else Shaka suggested I ask you about, apparently there's a story where the CEO of Databricks asked you for $200,000 in the early days and you said no. And it's not because you didn't want to invest and it was more about helping them think bigger.
Lenny Rachitsky：沿着这些思路，Shaka 建议我问你一些其他事情，显然有一个故事，Databricks 的首席执行官早期向你索要 20 万美元，你拒绝了。这并不是因为你不想投资，更多的是为了帮助他们思考更大的问题。
What happened there?
那里发生了什么？
Ben Horowitz: So there were six of them, they were six HD student, well, and Jan Stoicka (phonetic) who was their professor.
Ben Horowitz：所以他们有六个人，他们是六个 HD 学生，还有 Jan Stoicka（音译），他是他们的教授。
And Jan was this super genius, but when I met with them, they were like, "We need to raise $200,000." And I knew at the time that what they had was this thing called Spark and the competitor was something called Hadoop.
Jan 是个超级天才，但当我见到他们时，他们说，“我们需要筹集 20 万美元。”我当时就知道他们拥有的是 Spark，而竞争对手是 Hadoop。
And Hadoop had very well-funded companies already running towards it and Spark was open source, so the clock was ticking.
Hadoop 已经有资金雄厚的公司投入使用，而 Spark 是开源的，所以时间在流逝。
Ben Horowitz: And I think they didn't quite know what they had.
本·霍洛维茨：我认为他们不太清楚自己拥有什么。
And then there's also a thing always, although I wouldn't say Jan has this mentality, but professors in general it's a pretty big win if you start a company and you make $50 million.
还有一件事总是存在，虽然我不会说简有这种心态，但教授们，总的来说，如果你创办一家公司并且赚了 5000 万美元，那就是一个相当大的胜利。
You're a hero on campus.
你是校园里的英雄。
That's a pretty cool thing to have done.
这是一件非常酷的事情。
And so I'm always a little nervous about a company that comes out of academia thinking too small anyway.
因此，我总是对一家出自学术界、思维太小的公司感到有点紧张。
Ben Horowitz: And so I said, "Look, I'm not going to write you a check for $200,000.
本·霍洛维茨：所以我说，“听着，我不会给你写一张 20 万美元的支票。
I'll write you a check for $10 million because this company, you need to build a company.
我会给你开一张1000万美元的支票，因为这家公司，你需要建立一家公司。
You need to really go for it if you're going to do this, otherwise you guys should stay in school." And they were all graduating right then, so that was kind of that.
如果你想这么做，你就需要真正努力，否则你们就应该留在学校。”那时他们都毕业了，所以就是这样。
And Ali actually was VP of engineering at the time, and it was a while before I made him CEO and that was very good luck on my part because I had no idea that they had a guide that good inside the company who could become CEO when I invested.
阿里当时实际上是工程副总裁，过了一段时间我才任命他为首席执行官，这对我来说非常幸运，因为我不知道他们在公司内部有一个很好的指导，当我投资时他可以成为首席执行官。
That was just, God smiled on me and gave me that one.
只是，上帝对我微笑，给了我那个。
Lenny Rachitsky: So speaking of Ali, I actually asked him what to ask you about, and he immediately shared this story.
Lenny Rachitsky：说到阿里，我实际上问他要问你什么，他立即分享了这个故事。
I don't know if you remember this.
我不知道你是否还记得这一点。
In your first one-on-one with him, after you-
在你第一次与他一对一的时候，在你之后——
Lenny Rachitsky: I don't know if you remember this.
Lenny Rachitsky：我不知道你是否还记得这一点。
In your first one-on-one with him, after you made him CEO, he was struggling with a bunch of low performers because he was coming in to lead the company and he was trying to turn things around, trying to coach them, trying to level them up.
在你任命他为首席执行官后，在你与他的第一次一对一谈话中，他正在与一群表现不佳的人作斗争，因为他要领导公司，他试图扭转局面，试图指导他们，试图提高他们的水平。
And your advice to him was quote, "You don't make people great.
你给他的建议是：“你不会让人们变得伟大。
You find people that make you great, that make the company great, that you learned from, not the other way around." And there's something that he called managerial leverage.
你会找到那些让你变得伟大、让公司变得伟大、让你学习的人，而不是相反。”他称之为管理杠杆。
What is that all about?
这是怎么回事？
What's the lesson there?
那里有什么教训？
Ben Horowitz: Oh yeah, yeah.
本·霍洛维茨：哦，是的，是的。
So understand, he had just become CEO.
所以明白了，他刚刚成为CEO。
So I was teaching him, he had been VP of Engineering and CEO is different.
所以我在教他，他担任工程副总裁和首席执行官是不同的。
And I'll get into why and what I mean by leverage.
我将解释杠杆的原因和含义。
Ben Horowitz: So I actually wrote a post about this with a little Wang quote where I think the quote was, "The truth is hard to swallow and hard to say too but I graduated from that bullshit, now I hate school." And that was always my feeling about this particular idea was, look, if you're VP of engineering, you can develop people.
本·霍洛维茨：所以我实际上写了一篇关于这个问题的文章，引用了王的一句话，我认为这句话是，“真相很难接受，也很难说，但我从那些废话中毕业了，现在我讨厌学校。”我对这个特殊想法的感觉一直是，如果你是工程副总裁，你就可以培养人才。
You can teach them to be better engineers.
您可以教他们成为更好的工程师。
You can teach them, be better engineering managers.
你可以教他们，成为更好的工程经理。
That's very doable.
这是非常可行的。
Ben Horowitz: But if you're a CEO, what do you know about being CFO?
本·霍洛维茨：但是如果你是首席执行官，你对首席财务官了解多少？
Like what do you know about being VP, HR?
比如你对副总裁、人力资源了解多少？
What do you know about any of these jobs except maybe VP of engineering?
除了工程副总裁之外，您对这些职位了解多少？
Ben Horowitz: And so the idea that you're going to take somebody who isn't world-class at marketing and make and you them world class and you don't know anything about marketing, is a dumb idea.
本·霍洛维茨：因此，如果你要找一个在营销方面不是世界一流的人，然后让他们成为世界一流的人，而你对营销一无所知，这是一个愚蠢的想法。
It just doesn't work.
它就是行不通。
Ben Horowitz: And then the company can't afford for you to be spending time on that because they need you to make very high quality, fast decisions.
Ben Horowitz：公司不能让你花时间在这上面，因为他们需要你做出非常高质量、快速的决策。
They need you to set the direction for the company and they need you to have a world-class team.
他们需要你为公司设定方向，他们需要你拥有一支世界一流的团队。
And so it's a very hard lesson if you've been VP of engineering because if you're a good VP of engineering, you do develop your people.
因此，如果你担任过工程副总裁，这是一个非常惨痛的教训，因为如果你是一名优秀的工程副总裁，你确实会培养你的员工。
Ben Horowitz: But as a CEO, it's not like you don't do any of it, but it is very, very small compared to it.
本·霍洛维茨：但作为首席执行官，你并不是什么都不做，但与它相比，它是非常非常小的。
So I like to make things just very stark.
所以我喜欢让事情变得非常鲜明。
So you get what I'm saying?
所以你明白我在说什么吗？
I don't like to hedge it.
我不喜欢对冲它。
Ben Horowitz: And then managerial leverage means it is very simple.
本·霍洛维茨：管理杠杆意味着事情非常简单。
It's okay.
没关系。
If I have the ideas about what your department should do next.
如果我对你们部门下一步应该做什么有什么想法。
If I am kind of pushing you to kind of move your organization forward, then that's no leverage.
如果我是在推动你推动你的组织向前发展，那么这就没有任何影响力。
What's leverage is if you're telling me what you should do and how you can push the company forward, that's leverage, then I'm getting more than I'd have if you weren't there otherwise I could just manage a team.
什么是杠杆作用，如果你告诉我你应该做什么以及如何推动公司前进，这就是杠杆作用，那么我得到的比你不在场时得到的更多，否则我只能管理一个团队。
Ben Horowitz: And that's the point when you feel like you're not getting leverage.
本·霍洛维茨：这就是你感觉自己没有获得影响力的时刻。
When you got to go say, "Hey, why aren't we doing this?
当你必须去说：“嘿，我们为什么不这样做呢？
Why aren't we doing that?" That's when you got to make a change.
我们为什么不这样做呢？”这时候你就必须做出改变了。
And by the way, he's unbelievable at that, as good as anybody I've seen as a guy who's not callous as a CEO.
顺便说一句，他在这方面的表现令人难以置信，与我所见过的任何一位不冷酷无情的首席执行官一样出色。
He really cares about the people who work for him.
他真的很关心为他工作的人。
He really wants him to have great careers and all that, but he does not hesitate.
他真的希望他拥有伟大的职业生涯等等，但他毫不犹豫。
If he's losing leverage, he'll make a move.
如果他失去了影响力，他就会采取行动。
Lenny Rachitsky: Kind of going back to the origin story of A-Sixteen-Z something you guys were really big on was helping founders stay COs become great COs, not replace them with professional COs.
Lenny Rachitsky：有点回到 A-16-Z 的起源故事，你们非常热衷于帮助创始人留下 CO 成为伟大的 CO，而不是用专业 CO 取代他们。
Lenny Rachitsky: I want to flip this question on you.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想把这个问题转给你。
When does it actually make sense to replace CO?
什么时候替代二氧化碳才真正有意义？
When are people not going to make great COs?
人们什么时候不会做出出色的 CO？
Ben Horowitz: There's a very consistent thing that happens, which is when somebody doesn't make it and it kind of starts with confidence is the way I would put it.
本·霍洛维茨：有一个非常一致的事情会发生，那就是当有人没有成功时，我会用自信的方式开始。
Ben Horowitz: So if you invent a product, you kind of recruit a team so forth, all of a sudden you're CEO, but you don't run a big organization, you don't know how to do that.
本·霍洛维茨：所以，如果你发明了一种产品，你就会招募一个团队等等，突然之间你就成为了首席执行官，但你并没有管理一个大组织，你不知道如何做到这一点。
Most founders are like that.
大多数创始人都是这样。
And so, if you don't know what you're doing, you're going to make mistakes and they all make a lot of mistakes.
所以，如果你不知道自己在做什么，你就会犯错误，而他们都会犯很多错误。
And then when you make those mistakes, they're very expensive.
当你犯这些错误时，代价将非常高昂。
They could cost you to do a down round or they could cost you to lose a company or they could cost you a customer or you scrub the product.
它们可能会让你损失一轮融资，或者让你失去一家公司，或者让你失去一个客户，或者让你放弃产品。
They're very high impact and not just on you, but everybody who you talked into joining you.
它们的影响力非常大，不仅对你，而且对所有你说服加入你的人。
And so that kind of motion can really cause you to lose confidence.
所以这种动作真的会让你失去信心。
Ben Horowitz: And then if you lose confidence, what happens is you hesitate on the next decision.
本·霍洛维茨：如果你失去信心，就会对下一个决定犹豫不决。
And as we talked about, hesitation is very dangerous because one, it locks up the company, but even worse what happens is if you have senior people working for you, they get very nervous and they feel like they need to jump into that void and make the decision for you.
正如我们所说，犹豫是非常危险的，因为它会让公司陷入困境，但更糟糕的是，如果你有资深人士为你工作，他们会变得非常紧张，他们觉得自己需要跳入这个空白并为你做出决定。
And that's when it gets political, very political, because people are vying for power inside your little screwed up company.
这就是它变得政治化的时候，非常政治化，因为人们在你这个搞砸的小公司内部争夺权力。
Ben Horowitz: And so now you've got a political dysfunctional organization and that's generally where, okay, the founder probably can't run this thing anymore.
本·霍洛维茨：现在你已经有了一个政治功能失调的组织，通常情况下，创始人可能无法再管理这个公司了。
That's how it happens.
事情就是这样发生的。
Ben Horowitz: So most of what we do as a firm is to try to help people with that confidence problem and there's a whole series of ideas that we have around that, but you kind of have to somehow climb the confidence and the competency curve together.
本·霍洛维茨：作为一家公司，我们所做的大部分工作就是试图帮助人们解决信心问题，我们对此有一系列的想法，但你必须以某种方式共同攀登信心和能力曲线。
It's very hard to do and particularly if you're an engineer and you're used to getting things right or if you've been a straight A student or something like that, it's very disconcerting.
这很难做到，特别是如果你是一名工程师并且你习惯于把事情做好，或者如果你一直是全优学生或类似的人，这会非常令人不安。
Sometimes it's better to have CEOs who are like C minus students.
有时，拥有像 C 减去学生那样的首席执行官会更好。
Ben Horowitz: Yeah, a little facetious.
本·霍洛维茨：是的，有点搞笑。
Well, it's just good to be used to failing.
嗯，习惯失败是件好事。
So I think I wrote this, but the median on the CEO kind of test is like 18.
所以我想我写了这篇文章，但 CEO 测试的中位数大约是 18。
It's not like 90.
这不像90。
And so you got to be comfortable getting a lot of D minuses because the D minus is fine, as long as you don't get the F, as long as you don't run out of cash, as long as you don't lose all thing.
所以你必须坦然接受很多 D 减分，因为只要你没有得到 F，只要你没有用完现金，只要你没有失去所有东西，D 减分就很好。
Okay, you got through it, keep going.
好吧，你已经熬过去了，继续吧。
And match, that's a lot of the thing that we try to do CEOs.
与之相匹配的是，这也是我们首席执行官们尝试做的很多事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, it comes back to your core, I don't know, message through your first book is just how much you'll fail and how much you'll struggle and how much paid you'll go through as CO.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，这又回到了你的核心，我不知道，你的第一本书传达的信息就是你会失败多少次，你会挣扎多少次，作为 CO 你会承受多少报酬。
Ben Horowitz: Yeah, yeah, and I mean a lot of why I wrote that book was just to nanalyze it.
本·霍洛维茨：是的，是的，我的意思是我写那本书的很多原因只是为了分析它。
I think what happens is, particularly when I wrote it, and I think it's come back and been true now, is the way the narrative gets written on all these successes is like, "Ph, they came up with a genius idea and then they built this company and they hired all these smart people and it was all great." But that's not at all how it happens and I've spent enough time with everybody from Mark Zuckerberg to Sam Altman and so forth, that they all go through that same thing that who has your struggling company go through?
我认为发生的事情是，特别是当我写下它的时候，我认为它现在已经回来并且是真的了，所有这些成功的叙述方式就像是，“Ph，他们想出了一个天才的想法，然后他们建立了这家公司，他们雇佣了所有这些聪明的人，这一切都很棒。”但事情根本不是这样发生的，我花了足够的时间与从马克·扎克伯格到萨姆·奥尔特曼等人相处，他们都经历过同样的事情，而谁让你的陷入困境的公司经历过同样的事情呢？
You screw a lot of things up and they have massive consequences, but you have to maintain your confidence.
你搞砸了很多事情，并产生了巨大的后果，但你必须保持信心。
Lenny Rachitsky: Actually, I was at a storytelling event last night and I was chatting with someone that I ran into there and told her I was chatting with you today, and she said how meaningful your first book was to her as a founder.
Lenny Rachitsky：事实上，我昨晚在一个讲故事的活动上，我正在和在那里遇到的一个人聊天，我告诉她我今天正在和你聊天，她说你的第一本书对她作为创始人来说是多么有意义。
Exactly as you said, normalizing that it's very hard and painful and this is just the way it is.
正如你所说，正常化这非常困难和痛苦，事情就是这样。
Ben Horowitz: And the feeling, look, if you think about organizational design or goals and objectives or OKRs or whatever management technique, you need a basic eighth grade education to do any of that stuff.
Ben Horowitz：感觉，如果你考虑组织设计、目标、目标、OKR 或任何管理技术，你需要接受基本的八年级教育才能做任何这些事情。
It is not that complicated.
事情并没有那么复杂。
The difficult part is the feeling that you have when you have to do it is very, the hard thing of matter a reorg is you're redistributing power, so you're going to have people really fricking mad at you because somebody's losing power if you do it correctly.
困难的部分是，当你必须这样做时，你会有一种感觉，重组中最困难的事情是你要重新分配权力，所以你会让人们对你非常生气，因为如果你做得正确，就会有人失去权力。
And that person may be a really good employee.
那个人可能是一个非常好的员工。
Dealing with that is the hard thing.
处理这个问题是很困难的事情。
Knowing how the organization should work to make communication better, it's not that complex.
了解组织应该如何工作才能更好地进行沟通，这并不复杂。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, I think about I was at Airbnb for a long time and just thinking of Brian, who I don't know even know if he had a job before Airbnb now.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我想我在 Airbnb 工作了很长一段时间，只是想到了 Brian，我什至不知道他在 Airbnb 之前是否有工作。
Ben Horowitz: Oh yeah.
本·霍洛维茨：哦，是的。
I spent a lot of time with Brian and after COVID, it all kind of clicked for him and then he did that he and that good talk on founder mode and so forth.
我花了很多时间和布莱恩在一起，在新冠疫情之后，这一切对他来说都很有意义，然后他就这么做了，并做了关于创始人模式的精彩演讲等等。
But the reason that was so articulate is he had screwed every one of those things up and he hired LT and all this stuff, and these are very senior people and he wanted to defer to them, but you can't defer as the CEO because you know what Airbnb should be doing.
但之所以如此清晰，是因为他把所有这些事情都搞砸了，他雇佣了 LT 和所有这些人，这些都是非常资深的人，他想听从他们的意见，但作为首席执行官，你不能听从他们，因为你知道 Airbnb 应该做什么。
He may know what finance should do, but you know what Airbnb should do and this kind of thing.
他可能知道金融应该做什么，但是你知道Airbnb应该做什么以及这种事情。
And then it gets really wild when you can't defer decisions as the CEO.
当你作为首席执行官不能推迟决策时，事情就会变得非常疯狂。
You got to understand what people are saying and go, "Now we're going to do this."
你必须明白人们在说什么，然后说：“现在我们要这么做了。”
Lenny Rachitsky: And this again comes back to the point of you have to go through the struggle and pain and failure to learn those lessons.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这又回到了你必须经历斗争、痛苦和失败才能吸取教训的问题。
Ben Horowitz: Yeah, no. They're really hard to learn without doing and often without paying the consequence.
本·霍洛维茨：是的，不。如果不付诸实践，而且往往不付出后果，就很难学习它们。
Even I, like I make mistakes.
即使是我，也喜欢犯错误。
I was having conversation with Ali the other day and I was like, he's like, "How's it going Ben?" And I was like, "Well, I'm finally dealing with something that I had put off for a very long time." And he said, "Why'd you put it off?" I said, "Because things were going too good.
有一天我和阿里谈话，他说：“本，怎么样？”我当时想，“好吧，我终于要处理一些我拖延了很长时间的事情了。”他说：“你为什么推迟呢？”我说：“因为事情进展得太顺利了。
I didn't have to deal with it.
我不必处理它。
"And he was like, "Yeah." He said, "I know that." I'd say Ali is one of the, if not the kind of best private company CEO out there, and he's making a mistake and I'm making a mistakes.
“他说，‘是的。’”他说：“我知道。”我想说，阿里即使不是最好的私营公司首席执行官，也是其中之一，他犯了一个错误，我也犯了一个错误。
So, it is just tough.
所以，这很难。
Lenny Rachitsky: You said that one of maybe the main reason founders fail the CEOs is they lose confidence, and you had some ideas that you guys have to help founders work through that.
Lenny Rachitsky：你说过，创始人失败首席执行官的主要原因之一可能是他们失去了信心，你有一些想法，认为你们必须帮助创始人解决这个问题。
Are there a couple you can share how you help?
您可以分享一下您如何提供帮助吗？
Ben Horowitz: Yeah.
本·霍洛维茨：是的。
So we do a lot of things on that.
所以我们在这方面做了很多事情。
So the kind of design of the firm is about confidence.
所以公司的设计是关于信心的。
So the first thing is, well, what would give you?
所以第一件事是，好吧，会给你什么？
Well if you can get stuff done.
如果你能把事情做好就好了。
So what if I could give you a network that's as good as Bob Iger's network, day one, the day you stepped into the job.
那么，如果我能为您提供一个与鲍勃·艾格 (Bob Iger) 的网络一样好的网络，从您入职的第一天开始，又如何呢？
Ben Horowitz: And so we have 600 people at the firm and why is that?
Ben Horowitz：我们公司有 600 名员工，这是为什么？
Well, most of them are building that network for you, so you can call any CEO or anybody in Washington or any executive or that kind of thing and get them on the phone and they'll talk to you and you can kind of deal with that thing.
嗯，他们中的大多数人都在为你建立这个网络，所以你可以给华盛顿的任何首席执行官或任何人或任何高管或类似的人打电话，让他们打电话，他们会和你交谈，你可以处理这件事。
And then that just makes you feel like a CEO.
这只会让你感觉自己像个首席执行官。
Ben Horowitz: And then we have a lot of people in the firm like myself, who you can talk to on a CEO to CEO basis, as opposed to an investor to CEO, and just kind of feel that.
本·霍洛维茨：我们公司里有很多像我这样的人，你可以在首席执行官对首席执行官的基础上与他们交谈，而不是在投资者对首席执行官的基础上交谈，并且只是感觉到这一点。
Early in the firm days, we used to do this thing.
在公司早期，我们曾经做过这样的事情。
I think I'm going to bring back in some form this thing called the CEO barbecue.
我想我会以某种形式带回这种叫做首席执行官烧烤的东西。
And it was like a lot of people have these events where they bring in speakers and this and that and the other.
就像很多人举办这些活动时，他们都会请来演讲者，等等。
And I always felt like those were one, they were too many days.
我总觉得那是一天，太多天了。
And then sometimes what they said wasn't really applicable and that kind of thing.
有时他们所说的并不真正适用之类的事情。
Ben Horowitz: So I said, "Why don't we just have a barbecue?" I would barbecue.
本·霍洛维茨：所以我说，“我们为什么不去吃个烧烤呢？”我会烧烤。
We get everybody in my backyard because was 500 people at the peak, which is why at the stuff I couldn't cook that much, that kind of stuff.
我们让每个人都在我的后院，因为高峰时有 500 人，这就是为什么我不能做那么多东西，那种东西。
And then we'd have Larry Page and Mark Zuckerberg and Kanye West, and so you're a CEO in there with portfolio.
然后我们会有拉里·佩奇、马克·扎克伯格和坎耶·维斯特，所以你是那里的首席执行官，有投资组合。
You're like, "Wow, I must be important.
你会说，“哇，我一定很重要。
I'm here with all these guys" and we're just hanging out having a drink, eating barbecue.
我和这些人在一起”，我们只是一起出去喝一杯，吃烧烤。
Ben Horowitz: And so then when I go back to my company, I feel like I am somebody.
本·霍洛维茨：所以当我回到公司时，我感觉自己很重要。
And okay, I might not be perfect at all this, but I am really a CEO.
好吧，我可能在这方面并不完美，但我确实是一名首席执行官。
I was at the CEO barbecue, for crying out loud and that kind of thing.
我参加了首席执行官烧烤会，因为大声哭泣之类的事情。
But the whole idea was always like, "Okay, do you feel like you can do it?" Because that's half the battle?
但整个想法总是这样的，“好吧，你觉得你能做到吗？”因为这已经成功了一半？
Ben Horowitz: And look, having been in and every CEO has been in a position where they feel like, "Well, maybe I shouldn't be the one running this thing.
本·霍洛维茨（Ben Horowitz）：瞧，每一位首席执行官都曾处于这样的境地：“好吧，也许我不应该成为管理这件事的人。
Maybe it's just too big for me." And that's a bad, you don't want to go there.
也许它对我来说太大了。”这很糟糕，你不想去那里。
And because as we've said, founders can get to the next product and that's something that almost no professional CEO is able to do.
因为正如我们所说，创始人可以开发下一个产品，而这是几乎没有专业首席执行官能够做到的事情。
There've been rare cases, but very rare.
确实有过罕见的案例，但是非常罕见。
Lenny Rachitsky: So clearly you've worked with a lot of companies, a lot of founders.
Lenny Rachitsky：很明显，您与很多公司、很多创始人合作过。
Let me kind of zoom out a little bit and ask you this question.
让我稍微缩小一下范围来问你这个问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: What's the most counterintuitive lesson you've learned about building companies that goes against common startup wisdom?
Lenny Rachitsky：关于创建违背普遍创业智慧的公司，你学到的最违反直觉的教训是什么？
Ben Horowitz: Well, the common startup wisdom keeps changing.
本·霍洛维茨：嗯，常见的创业智慧一直在变化。
One of the early ones that was wrong, and Brian articulated it, and then now I think a little bit of what people have gone to is also wrong.
早期的一个是错误的，布莱恩明确指出了这一点，然后现在我认为人们所做的一些事情也是错误的。
Ben Horowitz: So the first idea that was wrong was like, okay, build a team of senior executives as soon as you get product market fit as fast as possible and they can scale the thing.
本·霍洛维茨：所以第一个错误的想法是，好吧，一旦你尽快适应产品市场，他们就可以扩大规模，建立一个高级管理团队。
And I think that you got to build that team slowly and deliberately, kind of pace to your ability to integrate and then manage them.
我认为你必须缓慢而谨慎地建立这个团队，根据你整合和管理他们的能力来调整节奏。
Because if you bring in a bunch of senior people and you don't know really how they match to your company or how that function works or so forth, then you're going to start deferring.
因为如果你引进了一群高级人才，但你并不真正知道他们如何与你的公司相匹配，或者该职能如何运作等等，那么你就会开始推迟。
And once you start deferring, it's going to get out of control very fast because they're going to build empires, they're going to get political, they're going to do all that kind of thing.
一旦你开始推迟，事情就会很快失控，因为他们将建立帝国，他们将变得政治化，他们将做所有类似的事情。
Ben Horowitz: So that was bad advice.
本·霍洛维茨：所以这是个糟糕的建议。
You kind of have to do it in a measured way.
你必须以一种有节制的方式来做这件事。
I think that founder mode, I think a lot of people have taken to never hire anybody with experience.
我认为创始人模式，我认为很多人都采取了从不雇用任何有经验的人的方式。
And that's also bad advice in that, look, somebody who knows how to do something can really accelerate your thing.
这也是个坏建议，因为知道如何做某事的人确实可以加速你的工作。
So very early on, one of the founders, great founder Arsalan at Databricks was running sales.
所以很早就，Databricks 的创始人之一、伟大的创始人 Arsalan 负责销售工作。
And I'm like, "Oli, you're going to have to hire somebody who knows sales because Arsalan's, PhD in computer science.
我说，“奥利，你必须聘请一个懂销售的人，因为阿尔萨兰是计算机科学博士。
I like that, but that's probably not where you're going to have to start if you're going to catch these guys before they take Spark and use it against you."
我喜欢这样，但如果你想在这些家伙拿走 Spark 并用它来对付你之前抓住他们，那么这可能不是你必须开始的地方。”
Ben Horowitz: And I sat down with Arsalan and I explained why.
本·霍洛维茨：我和阿尔萨兰坐下来解释了原因。
I said, "Look, a lot of what sales, there's a lot of knowledge in how to build a worldwide sales organization; maybe knowledge of customers, territories, territory splitting, rep profiles.
我说，“看，很多销售，有很多关于如何建立全球销售组织的知识；也许是关于客户、地区、地区划分、代表资料的知识。
There's just a litany of stuff that you really can only learn by doing trial and error and you don't know anything.
有一大堆东西你只能通过反复试验才能学到，但你什么都不知道。
And so you're phenomenal.
所以你是非凡的。
Let's get you.
让我们来接你吧。
And still, he's a very senior executive in the company now, but we need somebody who knows that.
尽管如此，他现在是公司的一位非常高级的管理人员，但我们需要一个了解这一点的人。
And the idea that there are companies that go, " Okay, we're just not going to hire that in founder mode." That's also a mistake.
有些公司会说，“好吧，我们只是不会以创始人模式聘用这样的人。”这也是一个错误。
So there's a lot of, it's more subtle than you think, and it's more complex than you think.
所以有很多，比你想象的更微妙，也比你想象的更复杂。
And so you kind of have to get all the way to the truth.
所以你必须一路追寻真相。
And these little snippets of advice that he sees good, because they watch some fucking podcasts, are all fucking stupid.
这些他认为不错的小建议，因为他们看了一些该死的播客，全都是他妈的愚蠢。
Ben Horowitz: There's a lot of depth to these things.
Ben Horowitz：这些事情有很多深度。
You have to know the answer to the next question, the next question and the next question, and it does drive me crazy.
你必须知道下一个问题、下一个问题、下一个问题的答案，这确实让我发疯。
One of the funnier things that happened along these lines, just to show you how little.
沿着这些线索发生的更有趣的事情之一只是为了向您展示有多么少。
You know as an investor, about what it means to be CEO.
作为投资者，你知道担任首席执行官意味着什么。
Ben Horowitz: We were at a board dinner.
本·霍洛维茨：我们参加了一次董事会晚宴。
One of the CEOs says to me, he goes, or one of our CEO says, "Hey Ben, that thing you told me a while ago about don't be CEO at home." He said, "I was doing that and I stopped and it really helped me."
一位首席执行官对我说，他走了，或者我们的一位首席执行官说：“嘿，本，你刚才告诉我的事情是不要在家里担任首席执行官。”他说：“我正在这样做，然后我停下来，这对我很有帮助。”
Ben Horowitz: And then the other kind of VC said, " Yeah.
本·霍洛维茨：然后另一种风险投资人说：“是的。
You got to unplug some time." And I said, I was like, "What the fuck are you talking about?
你得暂时拔掉插头。”我说，“你他妈的在说什么？
He's CEO.
他是首席执行官。
He's not unplugging.
他没有拔掉插头。
He's getting shit all the fucking time.
他他妈的每时每刻都在胡闹。
He's got to deal with that.
他必须处理这个问题。
That was not what I meant.
我不是那个意思。
I was like, you can't go home and boss your family around.
我当时想，你不能回家对你的家人发号施令。
That's what I meant."
这就是我的意思。”
Ben Horowitz: You hear something from somebody who, but if you haven't done it, you don't even know what that means.
本·霍洛维茨：你会从某人那里听到一些话，但如果你没有做过，你甚至不知道那意味着什么。
And so then you then trying to transfer the advice to the next guy, that's not going to work.
然后你试图将建议传递给下一个人，这是行不通的。
So anyway, but he was very innocent.
不管怎样，但他很无辜。
I just don't want to kind of speak bad of him, but that's how it sounds, right?
我只是不想说他坏话，但听起来就是这样，对吧？
But that's not what it is.
但事实并非如此。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's an amazing story.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这是一个了不起的故事。
So the advice partly here, is just don't believe everything you see on Twitter and little sound bites of advice.
因此，这里的部分建议是，不要相信你在 Twitter 上看到的所有内容以及一些建议。
Ben Horowitz: I think actual CEOs know it.
本·霍洛维茨：我认为真正的首席执行官都知道这一点。
And that's kind of how people in my profession going to get a bad wrap.
这就是我这个行业的人会受到不好的评价的原因。
Because giving advice, that's not something that you know but something that you heard, is very dangerous, I think.
因为我认为提供建议，这不是你知道的事情，而是你听到的事情，是非常危险的。
Lenny Rachitsky: So speaking of advice that you've shared that might be out of date now, you are famous for writing one of the most popular pieces of literature for product managers.
Lenny Rachitsky：说到您分享的现在可能已经过时的建议，您因撰写最受产品经理欢迎的文献之一而闻名。
There's a lot of PMs that listen to this podcast called Good Product Manager, Bad Product Manager.
有很多产品经理都听这个名为“好产品经理、坏产品经理”的播客。
And if you actually go to that post today at the top you say, "This document was written 15 years ago and it's probably not relevant today for PMs.
如果你今天真的去看了顶部的那个帖子，你会说：“这份文档是 15 年前写的，对于今天的产品经理来说可能已经不相关了。
I present this nearly as an example of a useful training document."
我几乎将其作为有用培训文档的示例来呈现。”
Lenny Rachitsky: Still people link to it.
Lenny Rachitsky：仍然有人链接到它。
I actually just link to it as just like this is something every PM needs to read.
实际上我只是链接到它，就像这是每个产品经理都需要阅读的东西一样。
What is it that you think people should maybe not take away from it, and what do you think people still should take away from that piece?
您认为人们不应该从它身上拿走什么？您认为人们仍然应该从那件作品中拿走什么？
Ben Horowitz: Yeah, so the reason I wrote it when I wrote it was that I had a lot of product managers.
Ben Horowitz：是的，所以我写这篇文章的原因是我有很多产品经理。
And one thing about product management is it's a job that's completely different at every company and there is no training for it.
关于产品管理的一个问题是，每家公司的工作都完全不同，而且没有专门的培训。
So everybody kind of figures it out as they go.
所以每个人都会边走边想办法。
And depending on what's being emphasized, they'll get wrapped around the axle on if it's an enterprise company, well pitching to customers or I need to be really good with the press, or I need to be really good at writing the product requirements document or that kind of thing.
根据所强调的内容，如果它是一家企业公司，向客户进行良好的推销，或者我需要非常擅长与媒体打交道，或者我需要非常擅长编写产品需求文档或类似的事情，那么他们就会被围绕在轴上。
Ben Horowitz: And those are all these tasks, but none of those were the job and what I was trying to get out in Good Product Manager, Bad Product Manager was, the job is fundamentally a leadership job and it's a tricky leadership job because nobody is actually reporting to you.
Ben Horowitz：这些都是这些任务，但这些都不是工作，而我在《好产品经理、坏产品经理》中试图表达的内容是，这项工作从根本上来说是一项领导工作，而且是一项棘手的领导工作，因为没有人真正向你汇报。
Ben Horowitz: So it's like this influence, how do I get people to do what I want even though I'm not paying them.
本·霍洛维茨：就像这种影响一样，即使我不付钱，我如何让人们做我想做的事。
I can't fire them.
我不能解雇他们。
I can't promote them, and so forth, which is kind of the essence of real leadership because if you start to rely on promotion and firing and so forth for authority, then you're never going to be good at being CEO or anything.
我无法提拔他们等等，这是真正领导力的本质，因为如果你开始依靠提拔和解雇等来获得权威，那么你永远不会擅长担任首席执行官或其他任何事情。
Ben Horowitz: So I wanted them to get into the mindset of, "Okay, your actual job is to get a product into market that customers love that's better than anything that anybody else in the world puts in market.
本·霍洛维茨：所以我希望他们能够形成这样的心态：“好吧，你的实际工作是将一款客户喜欢的产品推向市场，这比世界上任何其他人投放市场的任何产品都要好。
That's your job." And so to accomplish that job, you need engineering to understand you with clarity.
那是你的工作。”因此，为了完成这项工作，您需要工程人员能够清楚地了解您。
You need to understand engineering with clarity.
您需要清楚地了解工程。
You need to have a really good view of the market and the competitors and the technology and so forth and you need to put that all together and deliver the thing.
您需要对市场、竞争对手和技术等有一个非常好的了解，并且您需要将所有这些放在一起并交付产品。
Ben Horowitz: And all the other things are tasks that you may or may not need to do.
Ben Horowitz：所有其他事情都是您可能需要或可能不需要做的任务。
I don't know if you need to do them, but the thing is, you have to be the leader.
我不知道你是否需要这样做，但问题是，你必须成为领导者。
You've got to get the thing done.
你必须把事情做好。
And so what I think it's still good on is that the mindset, be the leader, I think the details of any kind of thing that was kind of task specific was really for my group a Netscape in 1996, whenever the hell I wrote it.
所以我认为它仍然很好的是心态，成为领导者，我认为任何特定任务的细节对于我的团队来说实际上都是 1996 年的 Netscape，无论何时我写它。
Ben Horowitz: So as a kind of document I wrote out of frustration.
本·霍洛维茨：作为一种文件，我是出于沮丧而写的。
But I am glad that the people still like it, and I think leadership in general is undervalued, underestimated.
但我很高兴人们仍然喜欢它，而且我认为领导力总体上被低估了。
It's the most powerful thing.
这是最强大的东西。
And most of the great companies, Jensen is a great example.
对于大多数伟大的公司来说，Jensen 就是一个很好的例子。
What a phenomenal leader he is not just of Nvidia, but of the whole industry.
他不仅是英伟达的领导者，也是整个行业的杰出领导者。
And he doesn't have authority over the industry, but he drives it forth and that's why the Good Product Manager, Bad Product Manager is so important because that thing, if you learn how to do it, that's the thing.
他对这个行业没有权威，但他推动了这个行业的发展，这就是为什么好的产品经理和坏的产品经理如此重要，因为如果你学会了如何做，那就是事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: I didn't realize you wrote that initially as just an internal document and then you made a-
Lenny Rachitsky：我没有意识到你最初只是将其写为内部文件，然后你做了一个-
Ben Horowitz: It was kind of before blogging took off, so it is just an internal thing and I published it later.
Ben Horowitz：那是在博客兴起之前，所以这只是一个内部的事情，我后来发布了它。
I was just getting so mad.
我简直要生气了。
And by the way, my product management team at the time was very good, very talented people.
顺便说一句，我当时的产品管理团队非常优秀，非常有才华。
They just were not getting that concept.
他们只是没有理解这个概念。
So like David Wyden said, Coastal Ventures, Raghu Raghuram, who wanted on to be CEO of VMware, the team was like that team, but they were driving me crazy.
就像 David Wyden 所说的那样，Coastal Ventures、Raghu Raghuram 想成为 VMware 的首席执行官，这个团队就像那个团队，但他们让我发疯。
And so I was like, "I can't yell at people anymore.
所以我想，“我不能再对别人大喊大叫了。
I have to explain to myself." And so it's a good thing if you find yourself yelling at people, you probably haven't explained what you want, was the other big takeaway from that.
我必须向自己解释。”因此，如果你发现自己对别人大喊大叫，这是一件好事，你可能还没有解释你想要什么，这是另一个重要的收获。
Lenny Rachitsky: Did you ever think that piece would be so long-lasting?
Lenny Rachitsky：你有没有想过这件作品会如此经久不衰？
And so, I don't know, popular?
所以，我不知道，受欢迎吗？
Ben Horowitz: I didn't even know.
本·霍洛维茨：我什至不知道。
I thought it was kind of like aggressive when I wrote it.
当我写它的时候，我觉得这有点像攻击性的。
You could tell I was mad.
你看得出来我很生气。
I called a Good Product Manager, Bad Product Manager.
我给好产品经理打电话，给坏产品经理打电话。
It's like bad dog, bad, bad, bad product manager.
就像坏狗、坏、坏、坏的产品经理一样。
That was kind of the emotion I had.
这就是我的感受。
So, it is kind shocking some of the things that you write.
所以，你写的一些东西有点令人震惊。
Ben Horowitz: I would say that that's and kind of creative, and you probably know this.
本·霍洛维茨：我想说这很有创意，你可能知道这一点。
The idea is that you have the things that you write in five minutes end up being much better than things you write in five weeks.
这个想法是，你在五分钟内写的东西最终会比你在五周内写的东西好得多。
And I find in talking to musicians or writers or everybody has that same experience.
我发现在与音乐家或作家或每个人交谈时都有同样的经历。
The thing that you've already synthesized so much that you just have to write it out, that's the best stuff.
你已经综合了很多东西，只需要把它写出来，那就是最好的东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's something that you mentioned there in your answer about the PM being the leader.
Lenny Rachitsky：您在回答中提到了关于总理是领导者的事情。
There's always this kind of sense that the PM is not the mini CEO.
总有一种感觉，PM 不是迷你 CEO。
How dare you call yourself that.
你怎么敢这么称呼自己。
I actually think that's exactly what the PM is.
我实际上认为这正是总理的职责。
They're basically the closest to the CO. Their kind job is to think like the CEO within the team.
他们基本上是最接近 CO 的人。他们的工作就是像团队中的 CEO 一样思考。
Ben Horowitz: People get mad because everybody, this is the whole challenge of management in general.
本·霍洛维茨：人们会生气，因为每个人，这是管理的整体挑战。
People get jealous over stewardship.
人们会对管理工作产生嫉妒。
But from the perspective of the PM, it doesn't matter if you write a good spec or you have a good interview or you do this or do that.
但从 PM 的角度来看，如果你写了一个好的规范，或者你有一个好的面试，或者你做了这个或那个，这些都不重要。
What matters is that the product wrench.
重要的是产品扳手。
And you have to get all the way to there and work backwards from that and you can't do that without leadership because it is about, okay, we want to build that.
你必须一路走到那里，然后从那里开始向后工作，如果没有领导力，你就无法做到这一点，因为我们想要建立这个目标。
And you're not necessarily the person who comes up with every idea or this or that, or that.
而且你不一定是每个想法、这个、那个、那个的提出者。
You're just the keeper of the vision.
你只是愿景的守护者。
Ben Horowitz: And that's true for CEOs too.
本·霍洛维茨：对于首席执行官来说也是如此。
You don't want every idea in a company coming from the CEO.
你不希望公司的每一个想法都来自首席执行官。
I think it's a misunderstanding of what a CEO is, is why people don't like that.
我认为这是对首席执行官的误解，也是人们不喜欢首席执行官的原因。
They don't know what a CEO is.
他们不知道什么是首席执行官。
But a CEO isn't the one who has every idea it gives, every order does every.
但首席执行官并不是拥有其提出的每一个想法的人，每一个订单都执行每一个命令。
That's not the way it works.
这不是它的工作方式。
Ben Horowitz: The way it works is there's somebody who's got to consolidate, get all the good ideas, prioritize them, decide which good ideas we're going to do, and then get everybody on the same page, so that they have very high fidelity understanding of what that is.
本·霍洛维茨：它的运作方式是，必须有人来整合，获得所有好的想法，优先考虑它们，决定我们要做什么好想法，然后让每个人都达成共识，这样他们就可以非常准确地理解它是什么。
And so that it is a CEO, kind of function.
所以它是一个首席执行官，一种职能。
Now, it doesn't mean I'm better than you, it just means that...
现在，这并不意味着我比你更好，它只是意味着......
Ben Horowitz: ...
本·霍洛维茨：...
kind of function.
一种功能。
Now, it doesn't mean like I'm better than you.
现在，这并不意味着我比你更好。
It just means that that's what I'm doing.
这只是意味着这就是我正在做的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Miro.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Miro 为您带来。
Every day, new headlines are scaring us about all the ways that AI is coming for our jobs, creating a lot of anxiety and fear.
每天，新的头条新闻都让我们害怕人工智能会以各种方式取代我们的工作，造成很多焦虑和恐惧。
But a recent survey for Miro tells a different story.
但最近对米罗的一项调查却讲述了一个不同的故事。
76% of people believe that AI can benefit their role, but over 50% of people struggle to know when to use it.
76% 的人相信人工智能可以让他们的角色受益，但超过 50% 的人很难知道何时使用它。
Enter Miro's Innovation Workspace, an intelligent platform that brings people and AI together in a shared space to get great work done.
进入 Miro 的创新工作空间，这是一个智能平台，它将人和人工智能聚集在一个共享空间中，以完成出色的工作。
Miro has been empowering teams to transform bold ideas into the next big thing for over a decade.
十多年来，Miro 一直致力于帮助团队将大胆的想法转化为下一件大事。
Today, they're at the forefront of bringing products to market even faster by unleashing the combined power of AI and human potential.
如今，他们处于领先地位，通过释放人工智能和人类潜力的综合力量，更快地将产品推向市场。
Lenny Rachitsky: Guests of this podcast often share Miro templates.
Lenny Rachitsky：这个播客的嘉宾经常分享 Miro 模板。
I use it all the time to brainstorm ideas with my team.
我一直用它与我的团队集思广益。
Teams especially can work with Miro AI to turn to unstructured data, like sticky notes or screenshots into usable diagrams, product briefs, data tables, and prototypes in minutes.
团队尤其可以与 Miro AI 合作，在几分钟内将非结构化数据（例如便签或屏幕截图）转换为可用的图表、产品简介、数据表和原型。
You don't have to be an AI master or to toggle yet another tool.
您不必成为人工智能大师或切换另一种工具。
The work you're already doing in Miro's Canvas is the prompt.
您已经在 Miro's Canvas 中所做的工作就是提示。
Help your teams get great work done with Miro.
使用 Miro 帮助您的团队出色地完成工作。
Check it out at miro.com/lenny.
请访问 miro.com/lenny 进行查看。
That's M-I-R-O.com/lenny.
那是 M-I-R-O.com/lenny。
Lenny Rachitsky: Let's talk about AI.
Lenny Rachitsky：我们来谈谈人工智能。
I'm very proud of us.
我为我们感到非常自豪。
It's been almost an hour.
已经快一个小时了。
We haven't even mentioned AI.
我们甚至还没有提到人工智能。
I think that's a record.
我认为这是一个记录。
Okay, so I asked Adam Neumann, WeWork founder, now Flow founder, someone you work closely with now what to ask you about.
好的，所以我问了 Adam Neumann，他是 WeWork 的创始人，现在是 Flow 的创始人，他是你现在密切合作的人，我想问你什么问题。
And he said he has some really interesting insights about how AI is impacting hiring.
他表示，关于人工智能如何影响招聘，他有一些非常有趣的见解。
Ben Horowitz: Adam is probably the single most controversial investment that we ever made.
本·霍洛维茨：亚当可能是我们做过的最具争议性的投资。
We got called everything from stupid to sexist to racist to this and that for literally just funding that.
我们被称为“愚蠢”、“性别歧视”、“种族主义”、“这个”、“那个”，只是因为我们只是资助这个项目。
And I think it's going to end up being one of the best investments we ever made.
我认为这最终将成为我们有史以来最好的投资之一。
He's doing a phenomenal job there.
他在那里做得非常出色。
There's an important principle in that which we do as a firm, which I think is not widely done, but I would love it if people copied it, which is, and it's something I learned somewhat from Shaka, which is you don't judge a person by the worst thing that ever happened to them.
作为一家公司，我们所做的事情有一个重要的原则，我认为这并没有被广泛实施，但如果人们复制它，我会很高兴，这是我从沙卡那里学到的一些东西，那就是你不要根据一个人发生过的最糟糕的事情来判断一个人。
We've all had bad things happen to us.
我们都曾遭遇过不好的事情。
We've all made bad decisions.
我们都做出了错误的决定。
Most of them, they don't make a miniseries about.
他们中的大多数人并没有制作一部迷你剧。
Ben Horowitz: And so to judge them on that, you want to judge people on what they do well, not what they screwed up, because that's where you see the talent.
本·霍洛维茨：因此，要根据这一点来评判他们，你要根据他们做得好的事情来评判他们，而不是他们搞砸的事情，因为这就是你看到人才的地方。
If you look at what Adam did well, it's truly spectacular.
如果你看看亚当做得很好的地方，那真是太壮观了。
Everybody knows WeWork.
每个人都知道 WeWork。
Name a more important commercial real estate brand than WeWork.
说出一个比 WeWork 更重要的商业地产品牌。
You can't.
你不能。
And so what an accomplishment.
这是多么大的成就啊。
And there were so many things that went into that and so many things he did right.
其中涉及到很多事情，而且他做对了很多事情。
Ben Horowitz: And then if you kind of look at really unravel the things that went wrong, most of it was like a combination of inexperience and nobody around him that would tell him the truth.
本·霍洛维茨：如果你仔细观察一下到底出了什么问题，就会发现大部分都是因为缺乏经验，而且周围没有人会告诉他真相。
And, yeah, maybe he wasn't good at listening to the truth either at the time, but to throw away a guy on that, which is by the way, the world was so mad at us for not throwing him away, for believing in him, is just that it's a big mistake.
是的，也许他当时也不擅长倾听真相，但就这样抛弃一个人，顺便说一句，世界对我们如此生气，因为我们没有抛弃他，因为相信他，这是一个很大的错误。
And I credit Mark because Mark is the one who called him up originally, and just said, "Hey, Adam, what are you doing?" Because we watched what you did at WeWork and we thought it was pretty impressive.
我相信马克，因为马克是最初给他打电话的人，只是说：“嘿，亚当，你在做什么？”因为我们看到了你们在 WeWork 所做的事情，我们认为这令人印象深刻。
Ben Horowitz: And so I think that that's probably the biggest secret there.
本·霍洛维茨：所以我认为这可能是最大的秘密。
Judge Al Davis once said, "Coach players on what they can do." And I think that's very true.
阿尔·戴维斯法官曾经说过：“指导球员他们能做什么。”我认为这是非常正确的。
Judge people on what they can do, coach people on what they can do, help them take their strengths and use them as opposed to over focus on their weaknesses and just hand wringing about the one fucking thing they don't know how to do.
根据人们能做什么来判断他们，指导他们能做什么，帮助他们发挥自己的优势并利用它们，而不是过度关注他们的弱点，而只是为他们不知道该怎么做的一件该死的事情而烦恼。
Because look, everybody's uneven.
因为看，每个人都不平衡。
Lenny Rachitsky: What you're describing, essentially, this is the job of an investor, is to find an underappreciated asset and invest or before something people don't see.
Lenny Rachitsky：你所描述的本质上是投资者的工作，就是找到一项被低估的资产并在人们看不到的东西之前进行投资。
Ben Horowitz: Venture capital is really about investing in people.
本·霍洛维茨：风险投资实际上是对人的投资。
You have ideas as an investor, but what you really are ultimately betting on is the entrepreneur and the entrepreneur's idea because the initial idea isn't where they end up usually.
作为投资者，你有想法，但你最终真正押注的是企业家和企业家的想法，因为最初的想法通常不是最终的结果。
It changes a lot with everybody we invest in.
我们投资的每个人都会发生很大的变化。
So you kind of have to make the judgment on the person.
所以你必须对这个人做出判断。
And how you do that is really, really important.
如何做到这一点非常非常重要。
And one of the things we emphasize inside the firm is, look, we're investing in strength, not lack of weakness.
我们在公司内部强调的一件事是，看，我们投资的是实力，而不是缺乏弱点。
I want to know how good, are they world-class?
我想知道他们有多好，是世界一流的吗？
Do they have a world-class strength?
他们有世界级的实力吗？
And can that beat anybody?
这能打败任何人吗？
And look, everybody's flawed.
瞧，每个人都有缺陷。
And so let's help them deal with the flaws and surround them with people who can handle that and put the right person on the board who can talk to them.
因此，让我们帮助他们解决这些缺陷，并在他们周围安排能够处理这些缺陷的人，并在董事会中安排合适的人选来与他们交谈。
Ben Horowitz: You know Mark's on the board, I go to all his board meetings because I'm the one who's good at killing a guy who's that confident when he's like, "Okay, that's not your best idea." That's good role for me.
本·霍洛维茨：你知道马克是董事会成员，我参加了他所有的董事会会议，因为我擅长杀死一个当他说“好吧，这不是你最好的主意”时那么自信的人。这对我来说是个好角色。
But that's how you deal with that.
但这就是你处理的方式。
You don't throw them away and go, "Oh, okay, we don't want to be called names.
你不会把它们扔掉然后说：“哦，好吧，我们不想被骂。
So we're not going to invest in Adam Neumann after we built WeWork.
因此，在创建 WeWork 后，我们不会投资 Adam Neumann。
That's crazy.
太疯狂了。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's also why you guys invested in Cluely, I imagine similar.
Lenny Rachitsky：这也是你们投资 Cluely 的原因，我想也是类似的。
Ben Horowitz: Yeah, yeah, no, that's right.
本·霍洛维茨：是的，是的，不，没错。
I mean, look, if you look at what those guys did, that was some high level marketing genius too, and that's really something.
我的意思是，如果你看看那些人所做的事情，你会发现他们也是一些高水平的营销天才，这确实很了不起。
Plus the product is awesome.
而且产品很棒。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm going to bring us back to AI.
Lenny Rachitsky：我要把我们带回人工智能。
Something that a lot of people are talking about right now while we're recording this is this potential huge bubble we're in with AI.
当我们录制这段视频时，很多人正在谈论的就是我们所处的人工智能潜在的巨大泡沫。
Sam Altman said, "We're in a big bubble," which is, that's saying a lot.
萨姆·奥尔特曼说，“我们正处于一个大泡沫之中”，这句话说明了很多问题。
I'm curious just how you that it-
我很好奇你是怎么做到的-
Ben Horowitz: What is it saying?
本·霍洛维茨：它在说什么？
First of all, I should qualify this by saying I am an investor and Sam's a CEO.
首先，我应该通过说我是投资者而 Sam 是首席执行官来限定这一点。
So CEOs have to have much more purpose when they talk.
因此，首席执行官在讲话时必须有更多的目的。
Investors just have to be entertained.
投资者只需娱乐一下即可。
So you got to give Sam credit for what is it in his interest to say it?
所以你必须相信萨姆说这句话符合他的利益吗？
Well, if it's a bubble, then the one thing you should invest in is him and not all these guys chasing after him.
好吧，如果这是一个泡沫，那么你应该投资的一件事就是他，而不是所有这些追赶他的人。
Ben Horowitz: I would say that's very smart.
本·霍洛维茨：我想说这非常聪明。
And then the other thing that's smart about it is there's nothing that you can say to the press that will make them love you more than saying, "All investors and entrepreneurs chasing this are idiots." They love them.
另一件聪明的事情是，你对媒体说的任何话都比说“所有追逐这个的投资者和企业家都是白痴”更能让他们爱你。他们爱他们。
The press are generally haters, and so it's just red meat for the haters, which was also super clever.
媒体通常都是仇恨者，所以这对仇恨者来说只是红肉，这也是非常聪明的。
So I think whether even he believes that or not, that was a super smart thing to say.
所以我认为无论他是否相信，这都是一个非常聪明的说法。
So I'll just put it there.
所以我就把它放在那里。
Whereas what I'm going to say won't be as smart, but it will...
虽然我要说的不会那么聪明，但它会......
Ben Horowitz: I don't really have an ax to grind here.
本·霍洛维茨（Ben Horowitz）：我真的没有什么可磨的。
I mean, I could have an ax to grind and say, "Okay, let's get all the other investors out." I'll say, "It's a massive bubble." But what I would say about that is, so the first thing, the one thing about bubbles is anytime everybody thinks it's a bubble, it's not a bubble because in order for it to bubble, you need capitulation.
我的意思是，我可以大刀阔斧地说：“好吧，让我们把所有其他投资者都赶出去吧。”我会说，“这是一个巨大的泡沫。”但我想说的是，关于泡沫的第一件事是，任何时候每个人都认为这是泡沫，但它不是泡沫，因为为了让它泡沫，你需要投降。
In that you need everybody to believe it's not a bubble, because then the prices really go out of control.
因为你需要每个人都相信这不是泡沫，因为那样的话价格就会真正失控。
But as long as there's people who think it's a bubble, then it's hard for that to happen.
但只要有人认为这是泡沫，那么这种情况就很难发生。
And it's funny, I had this debate in The Economist, I think with Steve Blank in like 2011 or '12 when everybody thought it was a tech bubble, if you can imagine that, which it absolutely was not.
有趣的是，我在《经济学人》上进行了这场辩论，我想在 2011 年或 12 年，当时每个人都认为这是一个科技泡沫（如果你能想象的话），但事实绝对不是。
But because there were 1,400 articles saying that we were in a tech bubble, and I mean where prices were then compared to where they are now.
但因为有 1,400 篇文章说我们正处于科技泡沫之中，我的意思是当时的价格与现在的价格相比。
Ben Horowitz: But I knew because everybody was saying it was a bubble, it wasn't a bubble.
本·霍洛维茨：但我知道，因为每个人都说这是泡沫，但它不是泡沫。
I knew that.
我知道这一点。
The prices were higher, but the reason the prices were higher was we're getting to a global market.
价格更高，但价格更高的原因是我们正在进入全球市场。
AI prices are higher than prior prices, but if you look at the revenue growth and numbers, we had not seen anything like it.
人工智能的价格高于以前的价格，但如果你看看收入增长和数字，我们还没有看到类似的情况。
Sam's product worked so amazingly, we'd never seen that before.
山姆的产品效果如此惊人，我们以前从未见过。
Not even Google, not anybody.
甚至谷歌也没有，任何人都没有。
And so that's real.
所以这是真的。
Ben Horowitz: And we have companies that went from zero to 800 million in a year and that kind of thing.
Ben Horowitz：我们有一些公司在一年内从零增长到 8 亿之类的事情。
I would say there's a basis for the prices going up, first of all.
我想说，首先，价格上涨是有基础的。
I think the thing that's right about what Sam is saying is the landscape is early, really early.
我认为 Sam 所说的正确的是，景观还很早，非常早。
The technology is very immature.
技术还很不成熟。
As amazingly as it works, there's a long way to go to improve it.
尽管它的效果令人惊奇，但要改进它还有很长的路要走。
So it's very possible when you have that much technological change, that the positions that these companies have achieved with their high revenue isn't sustainable, and that there'll be a competitive change that either lowers prices or a new number one emerges or that kind of thing.
因此，当技术发生如此大的变化时，这些公司以高收入所取得的地位很可能是不可持续的，并且将会出现竞争性变化，要么降低价格，要么出现新的第一名或类似的事情。
Ben Horowitz: Yeah, that's possible.
本·霍洛维茨：是的，这是可能的。
But I wouldn't characterize that as being a financial bubble in that if you go back to the great dot-com bubble that everybody is always waiting for it to happen again, which I was CEO during.
但我不会将其描述为金融泡沫，因为如果你回到伟大的互联网泡沫，每个人都在等待它再次发生，我当时担任首席执行官。
The thing that happened there was very different, which is it was the internet and every smart investor knew that the internet was a big deal.
那里发生的事情非常不同，那就是互联网，每个聪明的投资者都知道互联网是一件大事。
How could you not fucking know that the internet was, of course it's a big deal.
你怎么可能不知道互联网当然是一件大事。
But if you go back to 1996, at Netscape, we had 90% browser share and we had 50 million users.
但如果你回到 1996 年，在 Netscape，我们拥有 90% 的浏览器份额，并且拥有 5000 万用户。
So there were 55 million people on the internet in total, and half of those were on dial-up.
总共有 5500 万人上网，其中一半使用拨号上网。
Ben Horowitz: And then to build a product like Evite, the greeting card company, had 300 engineers.
Ben Horowitz：然后为了开发像 Evite 这样的产品，贺卡公司有 300 名工程师。
That's how hard it was to build this stuff.
这就是构建这个东西的难度。
And so the math didn't work, and the math didn't work on any of those ideas, but the investors kept pouring money in.
所以数学不起作用，而且数学对这些想法中的任何一个都不起作用，但投资者不断投入资金。
And then eventually everybody went bankrupt because there was no revenue coming in.
然后最终每个人都破产了，因为没有收入。
And when they figured that out, then nobody would invest in anything.
当他们弄清楚这一点时，就没有人会投资任何东西了。
And of course then everybody realized, well, the internet was actually real and Paul Krugman didn't know what he's talking about, and like it was going to be a big thing.
当然，然后每个人都意识到，嗯，互联网实际上是真实的，保罗·克鲁格曼不知道他在说什么，就像这将是一件大事。
And then Facebook and Google and all these things emerged.
然后 Facebook 和谷歌以及所有这些东西出现了。
Ben Horowitz: But the thing that made it a bubble was the unit economics didn't work, the businesses didn't work.
本·霍洛维茨：但造成泡沫的原因是单位经济学不起作用，企业不起作用。
These businesses are all working, and they're being priced appropriately for how they're growing.
这些业务都在运作，并且它们的定价适合它们的增长方式。
So that's not in effect.
所以这并没有生效。
The thing that you could say is, "They're not going to keep growing like that," and so forth.
你可以说，“他们不会继续这样增长”，等等。
And I'm not sure about that.
我对此不确定。
The products, like I said, are working so much better than any technology product that we've ever built has worked.
正如我所说，这些产品的运行效果比我们曾经构建的任何技术产品都要好得多。
It's just mind-blowing how good this stuff is.
这东西有多好，真是令人兴奋。
And so, I don't know, if I had to bet, I would bet not a bubble.
所以，我不知道，如果我必须打赌，我会打赌不是泡沫。
I think there'll be some dislocation.
我觉得会有一些错位。
I think always in venture capital, if you've got a run like this, then the great company and the crap company both get funded.
我认为在风险投资领域，如果你有这样的表现，那么伟大的公司和垃圾公司都会获得资金。
But that's just venture capital.
但这只是风险投资。
That's not a bubble.
那不是泡沫。
Lenny Rachitsky: Four founders starting companies these days.
Lenny Rachitsky：如今有四位创始人创办了公司。
When you look into the future of the AI industry, say in five, 10 years, how do you think things will play out slash where do you think the biggest opportunities remain?
当你展望人工智能行业的未来时，比如五年、十年后，你认为事情会如何发展，你认为最大的机会仍然在哪里？
Where are you guys looking to invest most?
你们最想在哪里投资？
Ben Horowitz: In infrastructure.
Ben Horowitz：在基础设施方面。
I think that there is obviously a real estate power cooling play.
我认为房地产显然有电力冷却的作用。
I think that's a little outside of hardcore technology investing that we do.
我认为这有点超出了我们所做的核心技术投资范围。
But there's another layer which is take a given open source model, who can run it the cheapest with the lowest latency?
但是还有另一层是采用给定的开源模型，谁可以以最低的延迟运行它？
And that's going to be extremely valuable, whoever has that.
无论谁拥有它，这都将非常有价值。
And Google has been historically very good at that and so forth, and Sam is really trying to build that now with Stargate.
谷歌历来在这方面一直非常擅长，而山姆现在正在努力通过《星际之门》来实现这一点。
And so I think that's going to be a very important layer of value.
所以我认为这将是一个非常重要的价值层。
I think that on the foundation model side, you have to be very selective as an investor.
我认为在基础模型方面，作为投资者必须非常有选择性。
So in order to compete in foundational model world, our basic rule of thumb is you have to be able to, without much product progress, raise at least $ 2 billion because that's basically what it's going to cost you to train something that gets you competitive enough to make money.
因此，为了在基础模型世界中竞争，我们的基本经验法则是，在产品没有太多进展的情况下，你必须能够筹集至少 20 亿美元，因为这基本上就是你训练一些东西的成本，这些东西能让你有足够的竞争力来赚钱。
Ben Horowitz: And there are just very few founders like that.
本·霍洛维茨：像这样的创始人很少。
So Ilya is one of those.
所以伊利亚就是其中之一。
Mary's one of those, Fei-Fei is one of those, but that's the kind of class of person you need.
玛丽就是其中之一，飞飞也是其中之一，但这正是你需要的那种人。
And there's whatever.
还有什么都有。
There's certainly less than 10 of those in the world.
世界上这样的人肯定不到10个。
And so that's kind of an important area, but a small area.
所以这是一个重要的领域，但却是一个很小的领域。
And then I think the application layer is going to be very, very interesting.
然后我认为应用层将会非常非常有趣。
And I think that if you look at Sam, he's making most of his money off ChatGPT, almost all his money off ChatGPT now.
我认为如果你看看 Sam，他的大部分钱都是从 ChatGPT 上赚的，现在几乎所有的钱都是从 ChatGPT 上赚的。
And Chat GPT, like it or not, it's got a real moat.
而 Chat GPT，无论喜欢与否，它都有一条真正的护城河。
It's very hard to knock it off.
很难将其击倒。
It's perched.
它栖息着。
Ben Horowitz: Everybody's taking a shot at it, people, great distribution like Google and Elon and Zuckerberg and everybody.
本·霍洛维茨：每个人都在尝试，像谷歌、埃隆和扎克伯格这样的伟大发行商以及每个人。
And that thing just keeps going like it is.
那件事就这样继续下去。
So I think the applications are both more complex and kind of stickier than people thought they were originally.
所以我认为这些应用程序比人们最初想象的更复杂，也更具有粘性。
The thing that people got very wrong is this whole thin wrapper around GPT, that's really wrong.
人们犯下的错误是 GPT 的整个薄包装，这确实是错误的。
In fact, here's how wrong it is.
事实上，这是错误的。
Back in the '80s, that same phrase was used, but it was thin wrapper around an RDBMS-
早在 80 年代，就使用了同样的短语，但它是 RDBMS 的薄包装 -
Ben Horowitz: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
本·霍洛维茨：是啊，是啊，是啊。
So it meant companies like Salesforce were basically just a thin wrapper.
因此，这意味着像 Salesforce 这样的公司基本上只是一个薄薄的包装。
And I think that that's kind of the mistake people made.
我认为这就是人们所犯的错误。
So we're at this company Cursor, and if you look under the covers in Cursor, they've built 14 different models to really understand how a developer works, a high-end, a real developer.
因此，我们在 Cursor 这家公司，如果你深入了解 Cursor，他们构建了 14 个不同的模型来真正了解开发人员、高端、真正的开发人员如何工作。
Those models have tons and tons of interactions with how people talk to their friend Cursor about how they should design their programming so forth.
这些模型与人们如何与他们的朋友 Cursor 谈论他们应该如何设计程序等进行大量的交互。
And that's real, that's not just a thin layer on a foundation model.
这是真实的，这不仅仅是基础模型上的薄层。
And I think there are many, many applications like that.
我认为这样的应用有很多很多。
And so I think there's going to be a lot of opportunity at the application layer.
所以我认为应用层会有很多机会。
There's going to be some opportunity at the foundation model, and of course you can invest in Sam, you can invest in Anthropic and so forth as well.
基金会模式会有一些机会，当然你可以投资Sam，也可以投资Anthropic等等。
Ben Horowitz: But there will probably be a very small number of companies at that set, and then a almost unlimited number of companies at the application layer.
本·霍洛维茨：但是，这一群体中的公司数量可能非常少，而应用层的公司数量几乎是无限的。
And then as the technology advances, we'll of course see more things we can body to AI.
随着技术的进步，我们当然会看到更多可以融入人工智能的东西。
I mean already autonomous cars are working really well now after a long, long, long, long time.
我的意思是，经过很长、很长、很长、很长一段时间后，自动驾驶汽车现在已经运行得非常好。
Since I think Sebastian won the challenge in 2006 when he drove the self-driving car across the country.
因为我认为塞巴斯蒂安在 2006 年驾驶自动驾驶汽车穿越全国时赢得了挑战。
And here we are 20 years later and now they're deployed.
20 年后，我们现在已经部署了。
So that was a long time.
所以那是很长一段时间。
Robots I think is a harder problem than self-driving cars.
我认为机器人是比自动驾驶汽车更难的问题。
So we'll see how that goes.
所以我们会看看情况如何。
But, yeah, there's certainly a lot in that world as well.
但是，是的，这个世界上当然也有很多东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇，好吧。
There's a lot to this answer.
这个答案有很多内容。
No, that was exactly what I was looking for.
不，这正是我想要的。
The Cursor example, it's something that comes up a lot on this podcast, in the application layer specifically.
光标示例，在这个播客中经常出现，特别是在应用程序层。
The thought that the way to win in this space and to build a moat is, as you said, "Build your own model slash have proprietary data that you build through people using your product." Thoughts on that?
正如您所说，在这个领域获胜并建立护城河的方法是“建立自己的模型，并拥有通过使用您的产品的人们建立的专有数据。”对此有何想法？
Ben Horowitz: Yeah, I mean, I think that ends up just being what's required.
本·霍洛维茨：是的，我的意思是，我认为这正是所需要的。
So it turns out that the universe is long-tailed, is fat-tailed, and humans are very fat-tailed in terms of human behavior, human conversation and so forth.
所以事实证明，宇宙是长尾的，是肥尾的，而人类在人类的行为、人类的谈话等等方面都是非常肥尾的。
So to get to the real meaning of it and to get to the kind of essence of the problem, in any domain turns out to be, I think, more complex than we thought.
因此，我认为，要了解其真正含义并了解问题的本质，在任何领域都比我们想象的要复杂。
And so the early things and people were running around saying, "Okay, there's going to be one big brain to rule them all on these kinds of things." That's kind of not played out yet.
因此，早期的事物和人们到处跑说：“好吧，将会有一个大大脑来统治这些事物。”这好像还没有发挥出来。
Ben Horowitz: And in fact, if you look underneath the covers, you have LLMs, which have generalized pretty in fascinating ways, but they've kind of also asymptoted in that we have run out of data for the most part.
本·霍洛维茨：事实上，如果你深入了解一下，就会发现法学硕士，它们以令人着迷的方式概括了相当多的内容，但它们也渐近了，因为我们大部分数据都已经用完了。
And so if you look at the GPT-5 LLM compared to the GPT-4.1 and how much more it costs to train and so forth, it's definitely not going linear anymore.
因此，如果您将 GPT-5 LLM 与 GPT-4.1 进行比较，以及培训成本等等，您会发现它绝对不再是线性的。
Ben Horowitz: On the other hand, the reinforcement learning side has been linear, but it doesn't generalize.
Ben Horowitz：另一方面，强化学习方面是线性的，但它并不能概括。
So if you build a great programming model, it may be an idiot at math.
因此，如果你构建了一个出色的编程模型，它可能在数学上是个白痴。
And so that I think is just very different than what people would've said three years ago.
所以我认为这与人们三年前所说的非常不同。
And I think that there's not something that's both scaling and generalizing yet, and maybe we'll get there, but that certainly opens the door to something that's more user-friendly, that's more effective in any number of domains than just the basic foundation model infrastructure.
我认为目前还没有既可扩展又可泛化的东西，也许我们会实现这一目标，但这无疑为用户友好的东西打开了大门，它在任何数量的领域都比基本的基础模型基础设施更有效。
Now those models are incredibly important, and I think OpenAI is probably 80% of the revenue in AI are something like that now.
现在这些模型非常重要，我认为 OpenAI 可能占 AI 收入的 80% 现在都是这样。
It's massive, and so that foundation model is really, really important.
它非常庞大，因此基础模型非常非常重要。
And then the basic consumer app is really, really important.
然后基本的消费者应用程序真的非常非常重要。
Ben Horowitz: That just answers whatever the hell you want to know.
本·霍洛维茨：这只是回答你想知道的任何问题。
Those things are very, very real.
这些事情非常非常真实。
But I do think particularly, and then if you get into enterprise stuff and then it's no longer internet data, it's their data that becomes very different.
但我确实特别认为，如果你进入企业领域，那么它就不再是互联网数据，而是他们的数据变得非常不同。
Databricks is having a lot of success there because, okay, well, once you're inside a company, guess what?
Databricks 在那里取得了很大的成功，因为，好吧，好吧，一旦你进入一家公司，你猜怎么着？
You care about access control.
您关心访问控制。
That's hard with an AI world.
这对于人工智能世界来说很难。
It gets trained on some stuff.
它接受了一些东西的训练。
How does it know who has access to that information and who doesn't, and so forth.
它如何知道谁可以访问该信息，谁不能访问该信息，等等。
You have semantic issues.
你有语义问题。
So if you look at an enterprise, find 10 enterprises, they all have a different definition of what a customer means.
所以如果你看一个企业，找到10个企业，他们对客户的含义都有不同的定义。
You would think customer is a basic thing.
你可能会认为客户是一个基本的东西。
Well, is it a department at AT&T?
那么，它是 AT&T 的一个部门吗？
Is it AT&T?
是 AT&T 吗？
Is it a person at AT&T?
是 AT&T 的人吗？
What the hell is the customer?
客户到底是什么？
And it turns out to be very, very meaningful, particularly if you're trying to figure out important things like churn and this and that and third.
事实证明，这是非常非常有意义的，特别是当你试图弄清楚诸如流失、这个、那个和第三种重要的事情时。
Ben Horowitz: So that kind of stuff matters.
本·霍洛维茨：所以这类事情很重要。
So I would just say the problem space is a lot bigger than you can just attack with a basic foundation model currently.
所以我想说，问题空间比你目前用基本基础模型所能解决的要大得多。
Maybe that will change, and if that changes, then certain prices will have, in retrospect, look way inflated and others will look too low.
也许这种情况会改变，如果这种情况改变，那么回想起来，某些价格会显得过高，而另一些价格则会显得太低。
But that is TBD.
但那是待定。
Lenny Rachitsky: So a big takeaway from this is that there's still tons of opportunity for founders to start companies building AI products.
Lenny Rachitsky：因此，从中得出的一个重要结论是，创始人仍然有大量机会创办公司来开发人工智能产品。
Ben Horowitz: I think so.
本·霍洛维茨：我想是的。
Everything that we couldn't solve with software we can solve now, almost.
我们用软件无法解决的所有问题现在几乎都可以解决。
So it's a really big world.
所以这是一个非常大的世界。
And it's funny because we're investors in Waymo, and one of the things when you get into what took so long to make Waymo so safe like they are now, it wasn't the things that everybody reported on the podcast.
这很有趣，因为我们是 Waymo 的投资者，当你了解 Waymo 花了这么长时间才让 Waymo 像现在这样安全时，其中一件事是，这并不是每个人在播客上报道的事情。
There wasn't sleet and heavy rain, it was people.
没有雨夹雪和大雨，而是人。
It was like the human who was driving 75 in the 25 zone.
就像在 25 区驾驶 75 的人一样。
It was very hard for the AI to anticipate because it was rare but important.
人工智能很难预测，因为这种情况很少见但很重要。
And the number of rare, important crazy shit that humans do is very high.
人类所做的罕见但重要的疯狂事情的数量非常多。
And I think that that goes for all of AI.
我认为这适用于所有人工智能。
So to make things work really well, you have to understand this very kind of fat tail of human behavior.
因此，为了让事情真正顺利进行，你必须了解人类行为的这种肥尾现象。
Lenny Rachitsky: Along this AI thread, something that is really important to you, clearly something you talk a lot about is the US being successful in AI, in leading the world in AI.
Lenny Rachitsky：沿着人工智能这条线索，对你来说真正重要的事情，显然你经常谈论的是美国在人工智能领域取得的成功，在人工智能领域引领世界。
Why is this so important?
为什么这如此重要？
Why is something you spend a lot of time on?
为什么你要花很多时间在某件事上？
Ben Horowitz: It starts with, I think, my view of the US and its role in the world.
本·霍洛维茨：我认为，这首先是我对美国及其在世界上的作用的看法。
My personal view is it's very, very, very important.
我个人的看法是，这非常非常非常重要。
Not for society to be completely fair because it's not going to be completely fair or completely equal because we've never had one that's been completely equal.
社会不会完全公平，因为它不会完全公平或完全平等，因为我们从来没有一个完全平等的社会。
But it's important that everybody have a chance at life, and particularly both culturally, but also just you can't advance the world if you can't tap into all of your resources.
但重要的是，每个人都有生命的机会，尤其是文化上的机会，但如果你不能利用你所有的资源，你就无法推动世界进步。
And so if you kind of take away motivation and these kinds of things, you get into trouble.
因此，如果你失去了动力和诸如此类的事情，你就会遇到麻烦。
And if you look at the kind of every country today, and this is by the way, so you want the right amount of decentralized power.
如果你看看当今每个国家的情况，顺便说一下，你需要适量的权力下放。
You don't want it to be completely concentrated, concentrated power makes it very, very difficult for everybody to have a chance.
你不希望它完全集中，权力集中使得每个人都很难有机会。
This is the big lesson of communism over the last hundred years is it turned out right.
这是共产主义一百年来的重大教训，它的结果是正确的。
And we still have politicians selling it this way today, it's like, "Oh, it's power to the people."
今天，我们仍然有政客以这种方式推销它，就像，“哦，这是人民的权力。”
Ben Horowitz: No, no, no. It's power to you because you're removing all power from the private sector and installing it into the government, and then you're putting yourself in charge of the government.
本·霍洛维茨：不，不，不。这对你来说是权力，因为你将所有权力从私营部门转移到政府，然后你将自己负责政府。
And so I become extremely powerful.
所以我变得非常强大。
And this is why it didn't matter if it was Mao or Pol Pot or Ceausescu or Stalin, everybody died because when you give anybody that much power, nobody has a chance.
这就是为什么无论是毛泽东、波尔布特、齐奥塞斯库还是斯大林，每个人都死了，因为当你给任何人那么多权力时，没有人有机会。
There is no incentive, there's no carrot, there's only stick.
没有激励，没有胡萝卜，只有大棒。
And so you use that stick, and that's just the nature.
所以你使用那根棍子，这就是本质。
It's a system's problem.
这是系统的问题。
It's not a person problem.
这不是一个人的问题。
It's not Stalin was evil, Ceausescu is evil.
不是斯大林邪恶，而是齐奥塞斯库邪恶。
It was that system is evil.
就是这个制度是邪恶的。
And-
还有——
Ben Horowitz: It was evil.
本·霍洛维茨：这很邪恶。
It was like that system is evil.
就好像那个系统是邪恶的。
And that's the saying with fascism.
这就是法西斯主义的说法。
Be it Hitler or Mussolini, it doesn't matter.
无论是希特勒还是墨索里尼，都没关系。
That level of power is evil.
这种程度的力量，已经是邪恶的了。
Ben Horowitz: And the US does the best job.
本·霍洛维茨：美国做得最好。
Systematically, it's the best system.
从系统角度来说，这是最好的系统。
It's got all kinds of issues, it's got problems.
它有各种各样的问题，它有问题。
People always try to defeat it.
人们总是试图打败它。
But one of the things that if you look at the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution, the language is very important.
但其中一件事是，如果你看一下《独立宣言》或《宪法》，语言就非常重要。
It's, "We hold these truths to be self-evident."
它是，“我们认为这些真理是不言而喻的。”
Ben Horowitz: What does that mean?
本·霍洛维茨：这是什么意思？
It means it's not my rule, it's not the president's rule, it's God's rule.
这意味着这不是我的规则，这不是总统的规则，这是上帝的规则。
And so those rules are above the President, and then you work in that context and that distributes the power, because you're under the law, not under the person.
因此，这些规则高于总统，然后你在这种情况下工作并分配权力，因为你受法律管辖，而不是受人管辖。
We see that now even with Europe, where the leaders are going, "Well, I have a rule.
我们现在看到，即使是在欧洲，领导人要去的地方，“好吧，我有一条规则。
It's you can't say certain things or I'll throw you in jail." And the kind of shield they hide behind as well, we have to keep the kids safe.
有些事情你不能说，否则我会把你扔进监狱。”他们也隐藏在这种盾牌后面，我们必须保证孩子们的安全。
But if you say something that I don't agree with and the kids hear it, they're not safe.
但如果你说了一些我不同意的话，而孩子们听到了，他们就不安全了。
So the kind of transited property of bullshit is going to override.
所以那种废话的过境属性将会被压倒。
Ben Horowitz: And so it's really important that we have at least one society.
本·霍洛维茨：因此，我们至少拥有一个社会非常重要。
And as flawed as we are, as flawed as the US is, it's still the best.
尽管我们有缺陷，美国也有缺陷，但它仍然是最好的。
And you can see it by the number of new company creations, the number of new ideas that come out of here and so forth.
你可以通过新公司创建的数量、来自这里的新想法的数量等等来看到这一点。
It's really, really important that the US stays important and powerful in the world.
美国在世界上保持重要和强大的地位真的非常非常重要。
Ben Horowitz: We know from the last century, if you look at the last century, who were the countries that had economic power, military power, cultural power?
本·霍洛维茨：我们从上个世纪就知道，如果你看看上个世纪，谁是拥有经济实力、军事实力、文化实力的国家？
They were the ones that industrialized, and the ones that industrialized first and best.
他们是工业化的国家，也是最先工业化和最好的工业化国家。
And the ones that did became Communists, like Russia, China.
而那些这样做的国家则成为了共产党，比如俄罗斯、中国。
They were slow on industrialization and they fell into this very fucking dangerous system.
他们的工业化进展缓慢，他们陷入了这个非常危险的体系。
Ben Horowitz: Looking forward, that's going to happen again, but it's going to be AI.
Ben Horowitz：展望未来，这种情况还会再次发生，但会是人工智能。
And so it is fundamentally important, not just to America, but to humanity, that America succeed at that.
因此，美国在这方面取得成功不仅对美国而且对人类都至关重要。
We don't have to be the one winner or this or that, but we do have to be in that tier.
我们不必成为唯一的赢家或这个或那个，但我们必须属于那个级别。
Ben Horowitz: And as I go around the world and travel, I can't tell you, everybody ...
本·霍洛维茨：当我环游世界旅行时，我无法告诉大家……
and then everybody was getting, by the way, very, very worried about us earlier.
顺便说一句，之前每个人都非常非常担心我们。
And they say, "Look, we need you to succeed.
他们说：“看，我们需要你成功。
Don't destroy the dollar.
不要毁掉美元。
Don't fall behind in AI.
在人工智能领域不要落后。
Don't over-regulate it too early.
不要过早过度监管。
Don't do these things, please, because we need you to win, because we're all counting on that."
请不要做这些事情，因为我们需要你获胜，因为我们都指望着这一点。”
Ben Horowitz: And I think it's the most important work that we do.
本·霍洛维茨：我认为这是我们所做的最重要的工作。
It's why we're so involved in policy and so forth.
这就是为什么我们如此参与政策等等。
I think this is also going to be very, very true with crypto, which ends up being an incredibly important networking technology that complements AI.
我认为这对于加密货币来说也是非常非常正确的，它最终成为一种非常重要的网络技术，可以补充人工智能。
That work is, I would say, beyond for the money.
我想说，这项工作超出了金钱的范围。
Although we will end up making a lot of money with the right policies, so I don't want to seem totally philanthropic on this, but it's more important than that.
虽然我们最终会通过正确的政策赚很多钱，所以我不想在这方面显得完全慈善，但这比这更重要。
It's certainly more important than us succeeding or anything like that, that the country succeed.
国家的成功当然比我们的成功或类似的事情更重要。
Lenny Rachitsky: Speaking of philanthropic and other passions of yours, something that I don't think most people know about you, and I think will give them another insight into how interesting you are, you run an organization called Paid in Full, which is incredibly cool.
Lenny Rachitsky：说到您的慈善和其他热情，我认为大多数人都不了解您，我认为这会让他们对您有多么有趣有另一种了解，您经营着一个名为“全额付费”的组织，这非常酷。
Talk about what that's about, why this is so important to you.
谈谈这是什么意思，为什么这对你如此重要。
Ben Horowitz: Our ethos as a firm is kind of what I'd say is something from nothing.
Ben Horowitz：我认为我们公司的精神是从无到有。
This is the greatness of entrepreneurship.
这就是创业的伟大之处。
You start with nothing and then you make something really important.
你从一无所有开始，然后做出一些真正重要的事情。
That is also how Hip-hop started, where you have a bunch of kids who didn't even have instruments, and they created something out of nothing.
这也是嘻哈音乐的起源，一群甚至没有乐器的孩子，他们从无到有地创造了一些东西。
And the people in that world always talk about that.
那个世界的人们总是谈论这个。
Ben Horowitz: And one of the really unfortunate things that happens is, the people who invent the art form, and certainly in the case of Hip-hop, don't get anywhere near the kind of proportional benefit of their invention.
本·霍洛维茨：发生的真正不幸的事情之一是，发明这种艺术形式的人，当然就嘻哈而言，并没有获得与他们的发明相称的收益。
And a lot of the guys, people have forgotten about, or are struggling to make ends meet, and so forth.
还有很多人，人们已经忘记了，或者正在努力维持收支平衡，等等。
Ben Horowitz: So what we created was this thing called the Paid in Full Foundation, named after the Rakim, Eric B.
本·霍洛维茨：所以我们创建了一个名为“全额付费基金会”的东西，以 Rakim, Eric B.
song, which I did call Rakim and ask him for permission to use the name, so we didn't just take it.
歌曲，我确实给 Rakim 打电话，并请求他允许使用这个名字，所以我们不只是接受它。
What we do is, we give essentially pensions to the old rappers, that enable them to kind of continue their work.
我们所做的是，我们基本上为老说唱歌手提供养老金，使他们能够继续他们的工作。
Ben Horowitz: And then we have a big event go to paidinfullfoundation.org for tickets, which is amazing, where they get the award and they're celebrated by all their peers and so forth.
Ben Horowitz：然后我们有一个大型活动，可以去paidinfullfoundation.org 购买门票，这太棒了，他们在那里获得了奖项，并且受到了所有同行的庆祝等等。
And it's really phenomenal.
这确实是非凡的。
Some of the awardees have been Rakim, Scarface from the Geto Boys, Roxanne Shante, Grandmaster Caz, Kool Moe Dee.
部分获奖者包括 Rakim、Geto Boys 的 Scarface、Roxanne Shante、Grandmaster Caz、Kool Moe Dee。
Ben Horowitz: This year we're honoring George Clinton for being sampled, Kool G Rap and Grand Puba, and also Jalil from Whodini.
Ben Horowitz：今年我们要表彰乔治·克林顿、Kool G Rap 和 Grand Puba 的采样，以及 Whodini 的 Jalil。
I can't even describe how high impact it is on these guys.
我什至无法描述它对这些人的影响有多大。
I think Rakim was touring close to 200 nights a year, and he got his award, and came out with his first album in 15 years and is doing amazingly well.
我认为 Rakim 每年巡演近 200 个晚上，他获得了奖项，并发行了 15 年来的第一张专辑，表现非常好。
All of a sudden everybody's going, "Oh yeah, that's the greatest rapper of all time." They're finally going back and remembering all the things he did.
突然间每个人都会说，“哦，是的，那是有史以来最伟大的说唱歌手。”他们终于回想起他所做的一切。
Roxanne Shante, nobody had mentioned her in years and years and years.
罗克珊·桑特（Roxanne Shante），已经很多年没有人提起她了。
I think six months after we gave her the award, the Grammys gave her a lifetime achievement award, which is amazing.
我想在我们给她颁奖六个月后，格莱美奖给了她终身成就奖，这真是太棒了。
It's super high impact.
影响力真是超高啊
It's a great thing.
这是一件很棒的事情。
As a Hip-hop fan, I say dream come true.
作为一个嘻哈迷，我说梦想成真。
It's my only guilt.
这是我唯一的罪过。
Lenny Rachitsky: What's the origin story of you and Hip-hop?
Lenny Rachitsky：你和嘻哈音乐的起源故事是什么？
I imagine many people look at you and wouldn't imagine these records behind you, Nas gifted you.
我想很多人看着你都不会想象你身后有这些记录，纳斯给了你礼物。
You are so deep into the community, just how did this all begin?
您对社区的了解如此之深，这一切是如何开始的？
Ben Horowitz: Well, I actually wrote a blog post on it called The Legend of the Blind MC, which I think would be, if you're really interested, it's worth reading.
Ben Horowitz：嗯，我实际上写了一篇关于它的博客文章，名为《盲人MC传奇》，我认为，如果你真的感兴趣，它值得一读。
But it is kind of a story of me becoming a rapper, and how that occurred, and how it went, and so forth.
但这是一个关于我成为一名说唱歌手的故事，以及它是如何发生的，以及它是如何进行的，等等。
Ben Horowitz: I always say the very short story is, I was in New York at the birth of Hip-hop and when it really became big, '84 through '88.
Ben Horowitz：我总是说一个很短的故事是，84 年到 88 年，嘻哈音乐诞生时我在纽约，当它真正变得盛行时。
It's just the most exciting thing to see a new art form pop out and the creativity and everything.
看到一种新的艺术形式、创造力和一切的出现是最令人兴奋的事情。
Ben Horowitz: Once music becomes mainstream, I would say it's very shaped by business.
本·霍洛维茨：一旦音乐成为主流，我会说它很大程度上受到商业的影响。
And in the early days, everybody's just coming out with whatever idea they have and so forth.
在早期，每个人都会提出自己的想法等等。
The early days of rock and roll were like that.
早期的摇滚乐就是这样。
The early days of jazz were like that.
早期的爵士乐就是这样。
Lenny Rachitsky: I see now even more why you guys brought on Erik Torenberg.
Lenny Rachitsky：我现在更明白你们为什么要请埃里克·托伦伯格了。
Beyond his many talents, he's also really big into rap himself.
除了他的众多才华之外，他本人也非常热衷于说唱。
Ben Horowitz: Yeah, that's a good reminder.
本·霍洛维茨：是的，这是一个很好的提醒。
I need to make sure he gets to Paid in Full.
我需要确保他得到全额付款。
Lenny Rachitsky: Ben, this was incredible.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：本，这太不可思议了。
Is there anything else that you want to leave listeners with or share before we get to our very exciting, quick lightning round?
在我们进入非常激动人心、快速的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想留给听众或分享的吗？
Ben Horowitz: Yeah, I would just say, if you're a CEO listening to this, then know that how you feel about yourself is going to end up meaning as much as anything, and take your time on that.
本·霍洛维茨：是的，我只想说，如果你是一位首席执行官，正在听这个，那么你就会知道，你对自己的感觉最终将与任何事情一样重要，然后慢慢来。
Self-evaluation is ...
自我评价是...
one of my favorite quotes is that when my old manager saw me, as select players know, "From this day on, no credit will be given for predicting rain, only credit for building an ark."
我最喜欢的一句话是，当我的老教练看到我时，正如某些球员所知，“从今天起，预测下雨的功劳将不再得到，只有建造方舟的功劳。”
Ben Horowitz: And I think that's more true for CEOs than anybody.
本·霍洛维茨：我认为这对首席执行官来说比任何人都更是如此。
You have to build the ark.
你必须建造方舟。
It doesn't matter if you predict you're going to fail, you've still failed.
即使你预测自己会失败也没关系，你仍然失败了。
It gets you nothing.
它对你一无所获。
So what you have to do is figure your way out of it and spend all your time on that.
所以你要做的就是想办法摆脱它，并把所有的时间都花在这上面。
Lenny Rachitsky: Well, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
Lenny Rachitsky：好了，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
I've got five questions for you.
我有五个问题要问你。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: First question, what are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people, not including your own books?
Lenny Rachitsky：第一个问题，除了您自己的书之外，您最常向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？
Ben Horowitz: So two that I learned a lot from, one is The Weirdest People in the World, which it's a kind of big history book, but through an anthropological kind of cultural lens.
本·霍洛维茨：我从中学到了很多东西，其中一本是《世界上最奇怪的人》，这是一本厚重的历史书，但通过人类学的文化视角。
It's really fascinating.
这真的很令人着迷。
It explains an awful lot about how society works and how little changes in the rules completely change the culture.
它解释了很多关于社会如何运作以及规则的微小变化如何彻底改变文化的问题。
Ben Horowitz: One of the things that he basically endeavors to explain, why did the West get ahead on the rest of the world?
本·霍洛维茨：他基本上努力解释的一件事是，为什么西方国家领先于世界其他地区？
It kind of comes down to a weird anomaly with the Catholic Church, where they enforced monogamous marriage.
这有点归结为天主教会的一个奇怪的反常现象，他们强制实行一夫一妻制。
And it turns out that the natural state of humans is polygamy, but the problem with polygamy is, there's no cooperation among men, which is a problem.
事实证明，人类的自然状态是一夫多妻制，但一夫多妻制的问题是，男人之间没有合作，这是一个问题。
And as a result, and then everything is secret, so there's no sharing of knowledge, because it's all kept in the family, in what he calls kin-based culture.
结果，一切都是秘密，所以不存在知识共享，因为这一切都保存在家庭中，在他所谓的基于亲属的文化中。
Ben Horowitz: It leads to something called kin-based culture.
本·霍洛维茨（Ben Horowitz）：它导致了一种叫做“亲属文化”的东西。
And even recipes won't be shared if you're in a kin-based culture, because it's a secret.
如果你处于以亲属为基础的文化中，甚至食谱也不会被分享，因为这是一个秘密。
So you can't build science, you can't build cities, you can't build big companies.
所以你不能建立科学，你不能建立城市，你不能建立大公司。
So because the West kind of enforced broad monogamous marriage early, it was able to evolve into all these things.
因此，由于西方很早就强制实行了广泛的一夫一妻制，它才能够演变成所有这些事情。
Ben Horowitz: And he kind of shows why and how.
本·霍洛维茨：他展示了原因和方式。
He does these psychological tests today with people from monogamous marriage culture, Western culture, and kin-based culture.
他今天对来自一夫一妻制婚姻文化、西方文化和亲属文化的人们进行了这些心理测试。
And the psychology is completely different.
而且心理也完全不同。
He gives examples like if a person murders another person, is that still murder if that person who did the murder is your brother?
他举例说，如果一个人谋杀了另一个人，如果谋杀者是你的兄弟，这仍然是谋杀吗？
And in Western society, yeah, that's a murder.
在西方社会，是的，这是谋杀。
In kin-based culture, it's not a murder.
在以亲属为基础的文化中，这不是谋杀。
It's just not.
事实并非如此。
Ben Horowitz: And so that's really different.
本·霍洛维茨：所以这确实不同。
And so morality is different, everything comes off of that.
所以道德是不同的，一切都源于此。
So it's just a fascinating, fascinating book.
所以这是一本引人入胜、引人入胜的书。
So that's one.
这就是其中之一。
Ben Horowitz: Another book that I recommend a lot is Shaka's book, his first book, Writing My Wrongs.
本·霍洛维茨：我经常推荐的另一本书是沙卡的书，他的第一本书《写我的错误》。
He has a new book that I think is better, which is called How to Be Free.
他有一本我认为更好的新书，叫做《如何获得自由》。
It's not quite out, or maybe it's releasing.
还没有完全出来，或者可能正在发布。
It's releasing next month, so I recommend it.
下个月就要发布了，所以推荐一下。
Ben Horowitz: What it does is, it goes through how did he work his way out of prison and solitary confinement to his current psychology, and what are the techniques he used?
本·霍洛维茨：它的作用是，讲述了他是如何走出监狱和单独监禁的，以及他目前的心理状态，以及他使用了哪些技巧？
They're very powerful, very powerful ideas.
它们是非常强大、非常强大的想法。
CEOs always asks me, "How do you deal with it?
CEO们总是问我：“你是如何应对的？
How do you deal with it?" They'll ask in a work-life balance.
你怎么处理？”他们会要求工作与生活的平衡。
It's like, "What are you talking about?
就像是，“你在说什么？
No work-life balance for CEOs," or particularly entrepreneur CEOs, come on.
首席执行官（尤其是企业家首席执行官）的工作与生活无法平衡。
Ben Horowitz: But what do you do?
本·霍洛维茨：但是你做什么呢？
Do you meditate?
你冥想吗？
Do you do this or that?
你做这个还是做那个？
But he kind of goes through the things that you really ought to do.
但他会经历一些你真正应该做的事情。
That's what I would recommend, if somebody's wondering, how do you deal with all this pressure?
这就是我的建议，如果有人想知道，你如何应对所有这些压力？
Lenny Rachitsky: I love this.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
Just the whole idea of Shaka being this help for CEOs, someone that killed someone, went to prison, led a prison gang.
沙卡的整个想法是为首席执行官提供帮助，一个杀了人，进了监狱，领导了一个监狱帮派的人。
I just love that, how valuable his lessons-
我就是喜欢这一点，他的课程多么有价值——
Ben Horowitz: Prison gangs turn out to be really complicated things to manage.
本·霍洛维茨：事实证明，监狱帮派管理起来非常复杂。
Sorry for getting into this, but the problem with running a prison gang is, you're just dealing with people who all come from broken culture.
很抱歉介入此事，但管理监狱帮派的问题在于，你只是在与来自破碎文化的人打交道。
Ben Horowitz: So in any organization, like the fundamental thing is trust.
本·霍洛维茨：所以在任何组织中，最根本的是信任。
And so you're bringing in a bunch of no trust people.
所以你带来了一群不信任的人。
And so again, it's kind of like a military organization.
再说一次，它有点像一个军事组织。
It's a gang.
这是一个帮派。
If you think about a military operation, if you don't have trust, people don't trust the order, then you're completely dysfunctional.
如果你考虑一次军事行动，如果你没有信任，人们不信任命令，那么你就完全功能失调了。
Ben Horowitz: So how do you build trust from zero is a very interesting problem.
Ben Horowitz：那么如何从零开始建立信任是一个非常有趣的问题。
And he's a genius at that, by the way.
顺便说一句，他在这方面是个天才。
And I learned a lot from talking to him about it.
从与他的交谈中我学到了很多东西。
So from a management standpoint, I would just say it's an important kind of boundary case of how you build culture.
因此，从管理的角度来看，我只想说这是如何构建文化的一种重要边界情况。
He is very, very smart at that.
他在这方面非常非常聪明。
Like I said, you have to look at people about their greatness, not the worst thing they ever did.
就像我说的，你必须关注人们的伟大之处，而不是他们做过的最糟糕的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: I know it's the lightning round, but can you just share one example of something he did that was like, wow, that's a really good lesson, someone trying to create a good culture that worked for him?
Lenny Rachitsky：我知道这是闪电轮，但你能分享一个他所做的事情的例子吗？哇，这真是一个很好的教训，有人试图创造一种对他有用的良好文化？
Ben Horowitz: Yeah.
本·霍洛维茨：是的。
So one of the things that he did that I thought was really smart is ...
所以我认为他所做的一件非常聪明的事情是......
Well, he did a couple of things.
嗯，他做了几件事。
One is just a simple thing.
一个只是一件简单的事情。
He just made everybody eat lunch together in the gang, just to build rapport, relationship, trust, like it's all one thing.
他只是让大家一起吃午餐，只是为了建立融洽、关系、信任，就像这一切都是一回事。
We're all together on that.
我们对此意见一致。
Ben Horowitz: And I think particularly in the remote work world and so forth, people really underestimate how powerful just that idea can be.
本·霍洛维茨：我认为，特别是在远程工作世界等领域，人们确实低估了这个想法的力量。
And then another thing he did is, he made morality ...
然后他做的另一件事是，他创造了道德......
he had very specific things about, you had to be good to your word internally and externally.
他有非常具体的事情，你必须在内部和外部遵守诺言。
Ben Horowitz: So normally a gang, like I said, it's kind of a kin-based culture thing.
本·霍洛维茨：就像我说的，通常来说，一个帮派是一种基于亲属的文化。
But it made it much more powerful when he said, "Look, you can't do devious shit outside the gang either." And he had a bunch of examples of that, that I went through in the book.
但当他说“听着，你也不能在帮派之外做不正当的事情”时，这句话就变得更加强大了。他有很多这方面的例子，我在书中经历过。
Ben Horowitz: Like I said, because you're building it from zero, you really have to take a hard line on things that I think people in companies don't even take a hard line on.
Ben Horowitz：就像我说的，因为你是从零开始构建它，所以你确实必须对一些事情采取强硬立场，我认为公司里的人甚至不会采取强硬立场。
Is it okay to lie internally?
内心撒谎可以吗？
Probably not.
可能不会。
Is it okay to lie to a customer?
可以向顾客撒谎吗？
Well, in some organizations it is, but in Shaka's organization, that's as big a penalty as lying internally.
嗯，在某些组织中确实如此，但在沙卡的组织中，这与在内部撒谎一样严重。
These things, I think, end up being really important.
我认为这些事情最终变得非常重要。
Lenny Rachitsky: We're going to link to this book.
Lenny Rachitsky：我们将链接到这本书。
This is, What You Do is Who You Are.
这就是，你所做的就是你。
This is your second book that fewer people know about.
这是你的第二本书，但很少有人知道。
And this is one of the stories you tell and just what the lessons are for building-
这是你讲述的故事之一，也是构建的教训——
Ben Horowitz: Yeah.
本·霍洛维茨：是的。
It's kind of the more advanced book.
这是一本更高级的书。
You kind of have to survive to want to care about dealing with the cultural issues.
你必须生存下去才能关心处理文化问题。
And so the survival book has a bigger audience.
因此，生存书有更多的读者。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
We're going to keep going with Lightning Round.
我们将继续进行闪电回合。
Is there a favorite recent movie or TV show you have really enjoyed?
最近有没有您真正喜欢的最喜欢的电影或电视节目？
Ben Horowitz: Well on TV, I really like Slow Horses, which is the show about the MI6 cast-off guys.
本·霍洛维茨：在电视上，我真的很喜欢《慢马》，这是一部关于军情六处被抛弃的人的节目。
And then I haven't seen a lot of movies lately, but I watched Sinners.
然后我最近没怎么看电影，但是我看了《罪人》。
I went to theater for Sinners.
我去了罪人剧院。
Just the cinematography is unbelievable, and the story is really original, and the acting is incredible, and the costumes are amazing.
只是电影摄影令人难以置信，故事非常原创，表演令人难以置信，服装也令人惊叹。
It's just a great, comprehensive piece of work.
这是一部伟大而全面的作品。
The craftsmanship on that thing is just a lot beyond what most people making movies are doing these days, so I really enjoyed that.
那东西的工艺远远超出了当今大多数电影制作人所做的，所以我真的很喜欢它。
Lenny Rachitsky: I hate scary movies, but I watched it and loved it.
Lenny Rachitsky：我讨厌恐怖电影，但我看了并且喜欢它。
Lenny Rachitsky: It wasn't that scary, but still, it was zombies popping out of corners.
Lenny Rachitsky：这并没有那么可怕，但仍然是僵尸从角落里冒出来。
That's not my jam usually.
那通常不是我的果酱。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there a product you recently discovered that you really love?
Lenny Rachitsky：您最近发现有一款您真正喜欢的产品吗？
It could be a gadget, it could be clothes, could be something else.
它可能是一个小玩意，可能是衣服，也可能是其他东西。
Ben Horowitz: I bought a coffee machine called the Technivorm Moccamaster, which is freaking incredible.
Ben Horowitz：我买了一台名为 Technivorm Moccamaster 的咖啡机，这真是太不可思议了。
In fact, a friend of mine saw it and was like, "What is that?" And I just bought it for him too, because it's so awesome.
事实上，我的一个朋友看到了它，然后问道：“那是什么？”我也给他买了它，因为它太棒了。
This thing makes coffee that it's just perfect.
这东西让咖啡变得完美。
There's no bitterness.
没有什么苦涩。
It's completely clean.
它是完全干净的。
It's amazing.
太棒了。
The only problem with it is, I can't drink coffee that it doesn't make anymore.
唯一的问题是，我不能喝它不再制作的咖啡了。
I don't know if that's a good thing or bad thing, but ...
我不知道这是好事还是坏事，但是...
Lenny Rachitsky: That might come out someday in the AI future.
Lenny Rachitsky：这可能会在人工智能未来的某一天出现。
Lenny Rachitsky: Two more questions.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：还有两个问题。
One, is there a life motto that you often come back to, find really useful in work or in life?
第一，有没有什么人生格言是你经常回想的，发现在工作或生活中真正有用的？
Ben Horowitz: The thing that I would say has had the biggest effect on me is something my father said to me years ago, which is, "Life isn't fair." That seems really, really simple, but I think that the thing that defeats people more than any other thing that I've seen, just in life, is the expectation of some fairness.
本·霍洛维茨：我想说的对我影响最大的是我父亲多年前对我说的一句话，那就是“生活是不公平的”。这看起来真的非常简单，但我认为，在生活中，比我见过的任何其他事情更能打败人们的是对公平的期望。
It's just not fair.
这不公平。
Ben Horowitz: There are all kinds of stuff that are going to happen to you, and happen to everybody, that don't happen to other people, that are completely unfair.
本·霍洛维茨：有各种各样的事情会发生在你身上，也会发生在每个人身上，而不会发生在其他人身上，这是完全不公平的。
But it doesn't matter, because that's the way it is.
但这并不重要，因为事情就是这样。
As soon as you get that idea out of your mind, then you can just deal with it, like, oh yeah, of course it's not fair, but what should I do now, which is the real question, not how do I go back and get people to be fair?
一旦你摆脱了这个想法，你就可以处理它，就像，哦，是的，当然这不公平，但我现在应该做什么，这是真正的问题，而不是我如何回去让人们公平？
Nobody's going to be fair.
没有人会公平。
It's not fair.
这不公平。
Ben Horowitz: It's the nature of it.
本·霍洛维茨：这就是它的本质。
If you think about it for more than five seconds, you'll realize that.
如果你思考超过五秒钟，你就会意识到这一点。
It's as an individual, if you want to make the world a better place, whatever, but as an individual, do not expect anything to be fair, it'll only defeat.
作为个人，如果你想让世界变得更美好，无论如何，但作为个人，不要期望任何事情是公平的，它只会失败。
Lenny Rachitsky: Final question.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：最后一个问题。
This comes from Shaka, actually.
这实际上来自沙卡。
He gave me so many great suggestions.
他给了我很多很好的建议。
I hate to save this one for last.
我讨厌把这个留到最后。
So the question is, if you had to build a business curriculum from two Hip-hop albums and one Funk album, what would they be and why?
所以问题是，如果你必须根据两张嘻哈专辑和一张放克专辑建立商业课程，它们会是什么以及为什么？
Ben Horowitz: I think probably Follow the Leader by Rakim.
Ben Horowitz：我想可能是 Rakim 的《跟随领袖》。
And the reason is what we had kind of gotten into earlier, which is leadership.
原因就在于我们之前已经涉及到的问题，那就是领导力。
When he came out with that song, which was maybe the greatest Hip-hop song ever written, he's telling people to follow him, follow the leader.
当他推出这首歌时，这可能是有史以来最伟大的嘻哈歌曲，他告诉人们跟随他，跟随领袖。
And just to have the idea that he was the leader of the entire art form, not just his band, it is amazing idea.
只要想到他是整个艺术形式的领导者，而不仅仅是他的乐队，这就是一个了不起的想法。
And then the way he expressed it was incredible.
然后他表达的方式令人难以置信。
And then he's got other great concepts in there that would give you ...
然后他还有其他很棒的概念可以给你......
It's hard to listen to that record and not have confidence.
听这张唱片很难没有信心。
Ben Horowitz: I think from a competitive, purely competitive standpoint, Stillmatic from Nas, that's the one with Get Ur Self a Gun, that's the one with You're da Man.
Ben Horowitz：我认为从竞争性的、纯粹竞争性的角度来看，来自 Nas 的 Stillmatic 就是《Get Ur Self a Gun》的那个，还有《You’re da Man》的那个。
It's like all of the idea of competition is encapsulated in that album, so that would be the other one.
就好像所有竞争的想法都浓缩在那张专辑中，所以这将是另一张专辑。
Ben Horowitz: And then Funk, One Nation Under a Groove, for sure.
本·霍洛维茨：当然还有《Funk》、《One Nation Under a Groove》。
Because it's like, how do you initiate people into a concept or an idea, and how do you infuse them?
因为这就像，你如何让人们接受一个概念或想法，以及如何向他们灌输？
One Nation Under a Groove is all about joining the nation, and it's so musically interesting and getting people to be part of that.
《One Nation Under a Groove》的主题是加入这个国家，它在音乐上非常有趣，并让人们成为其中的一部分。
If you asked me tomorrow, I'd probably have three other ones.
如果你明天问我，我可能还会有另外三个。
Lenny Rachitsky: Incredible.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：难以置信。
I'm going to go listen to these.
我要去听听这些。
Ben, final question, how can listeners be useful to you?
本，最后一个问题，听众如何对你有用？
Ben Horowitz: If you get something that makes you better, please take it.
本·霍洛维茨：如果你得到一些能让你变得更好的东西，请接受它。
If you need more advice on it, let me know.
如果您需要更多建议，请告诉我。
Look, my job is to help everybody build something great, so if you're an entrepreneur, thank you for that.
看，我的工作是帮助每个人创造伟大的东西，所以如果你是一名企业家，谢谢你。
Lenny Rachitsky: Also, check out Paid in Full, paidinfullfoundation.org, if you want to learn more about that nonprofit.
Lenny Rachitsky：另外，如果您想了解有关该非营利组织的更多信息，请查看全额付费 (Payinfullfoundation.org)。
Ben Horowitz: Yes, definitely, we would love to have you.
本·霍洛维茨：是的，当然，我们很乐意邀请您。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Ben, thank you so much for being here.
本，非常感谢你来到这里。
Ben Horowitz: All right, awesome.
本·霍洛维茨：好吧，太棒了。
Thank you, Lenny.
谢谢你，莱尼。
Lenny Rachitsky: Bye, everyone.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：再见，大家。
Thank you so much for listening.
非常感谢您的聆听。
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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。