Unorthodox frameworks for growing your product, career, and impact | Bangaly Kaba (YT, IG, FB)
Lenny Rachitsky: You're early growth PM at Facebook.
Lenny Rachitsky：您是 Facebook 的早期增长产品经理。
You're head of growth at Instagram, you're VP of product at Instacart.
您是 Instagram 的增长主管，Instacart 的产品副总裁。
You're now director of product management at YouTube and I've heard that you've had a lot of impact on a lot of different cultures.
您现在是 YouTube 的产品管理总监，我听说您对许多不同的文化产生了很大的影响。
Bangaly Kaba: I found this framework travels with me.
Bangaly Kaba：我发现这个框架一直伴随着我。
It's got these five components to it, vision, skills, incentives, resources, action plan, and you need all of those to have change.
它有五个组成部分：愿景、技能、激励、资源、行动计划，你需要所有这些才能做出改变。
And then within those buckets you've got to figure out what are the right levers that you need to pull?
然后，在这些桶中，您必须找出需要拉动的正确杠杆是什么？
What are the things that are missing?
缺少哪些东西？
Lenny Rachitsky: You're really big on something you call understand work?
Lenny Rachitsky：你真的很热衷于你所谓的理解工作吗？
Bangaly Kaba: What I call the anti-paren of what we want to do.
Bangaly Kaba：我称之为我们想做的事情的反派。
Someone says, "Hey, you know what?
有人说：“嘿，你知道吗？
This would be great to build." And you go pull data to go justify why that would be great to build.
建造这个会很棒。”然后你去提取数据来证明为什么构建它会很棒。
Call that identify, justify, execute.
称之为识别、论证、执行。
First you have to really understand from first principles what is actually going on.
首先，你必须从基本原则真正理解到底发生了什么。
So understand, identify, execute.
所以理解、识别、执行。
Lenny Rachitsky: You wrote this legendary blog post called How to Choose Where to Work and What to work on.
Lenny Rachitsky：您写了这篇传奇性的博客文章，名为“如何选择工作地点和工作内容”。
Bangaly Kaba: There's impact that you're really trying to drop and the impact is only achievable by looking at set of variables related to the environment, the set of variables related to your skills.
Bangaly Kaba：您确实想消除一些影响，而这种影响只能通过查看与环境相关的一组变量、与您的技能相关的一组变量来实现。
Lenny Rachitsky: Today's guest is Bengaly Kaba.
Lenny Rachitsky：今天的客人是 Bengaly Kaba。
Bengaly was an early growth PM at Facebook where he was responsible for how people make friends on Facebook.
Bengaly 是 Facebook 的早期增长产品经理，负责人们如何在 Facebook 上交友。
He was Head of Growth at Instagram where he helped scale a platform to over 1 billion users.
他曾担任 Instagram 的增长主管，帮助将平台扩展到超过 10 亿用户。
He was also VP of product at Instacart.
他还担任过 Instacart 的产品副总裁。
He's also worked with tons of amazing startups as a Growth Advisor, including Twitter.
他还作为成长顾问与众多出色的初创公司合作，其中包括 Twitter。
He's now Director of Product Management at YouTube where from what I hear, he's already made a huge dent.
他现在是 YouTube 的产品管理总监，据我所知，他已经取得了巨大的成就。
This conversation went long because there was so much gold to be extracted from Bengaly's head and I could not stop myself from learning everything I could in our time together.
这次谈话持续了很长时间，因为从班加利的头脑中可以提取出太多的金子，而我无法阻止自己在我们在一起的时间里学习我能学到的一切。
This episode is for anyone looking to level up their product and growth chops or also just do better in your career.
本集适合任何想要提升产品水平和发展能力，或者只是想在职业生涯中做得更好的人。
Lenny Rachitsky: We dig into his framework for how to choose where to work and what to work on.
Lenny Rachitsky：我们深入研究了他关于如何选择工作地点和工作内容的框架。
The importance of spending time on something he calls understand work, his adjacent user theory and how it can help you drive growth.
花时间在他所谓的理解工作上的重要性、他的相关用户理论以及它如何帮助你推动增长。
A bunch of advice for coaching product managers and managers of managers, tons of lessons and stories from his time at Instagram, Facebook and YouTube and so much more.
为指导产品经理和经理的经理提供的大量建议，以及他在 Instagram、Facebook 和 YouTube 等工作期间的大量经验教训和故事。
Lenny Rachitsky: If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。
It's the best way to avoid missing feature episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously.
这是避免错过专题节目的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。
With that, I bring you Bengaly Kaba.
接下来，我为您带来孟加拉卡巴。
Lenny Rachitsky: Bengaly, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.
Lenny Rachitsky：Bengaly，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。
Bangaly Kaba: Thanks for having me.
Bangaly Kaba：谢谢你邀请我。
Excited to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
Lenny Rachitsky: So many previous guests have recommended that I get you on this podcast, which I already knew.
Lenny Rachitsky：之前有很多嘉宾推荐我让你加入这个播客，我已经知道了。
Funny story, when I first launched this podcast, I asked you to be on it.
有趣的故事，当我第一次推出这个播客时，我邀请你加入。
You're like, "Sure." And I included you on my launch poster of all the guests that are going to be on the podcast, and then you decided to take on a very hard work and jobs that kept you from having time, and so I'm really excited that we're finally doing this.
你会说：“当然。”我把你列入了所有将要出现在播客上的嘉宾的启动海报上，然后你决定承担一项非常艰苦的工作和工作，这让你没有时间，所以我真的很兴奋我们终于做到了这一点。
Bangaly Kaba: I'm glad we're finally making a reality.
Bangaly Kaba：我很高兴我们终于实现了。
Sorry about that, Lenny.
抱歉，莱尼。
Lenny Rachitsky: No sweat.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：不用担心。
You actually mentioned to me that somebody came up to you in Zurich and was like, "I'm excited for you on Lenny's podcast."
你实际上向我提到，有人在苏黎世找到你，说：“我为你在莱尼的播客上感到兴奋。”
Bangaly Kaba: Yeah, it was crazy.
Bangaly Kaba：是的，这太疯狂了。
I was visiting a team that I managed there about to get back on a plane to go back to SFO and just standing there doing some work, minding my business and I get on the plane, I'm talking to a colleague and someone comes up to me, I don't think I've ever seen them before, and said, "Hey, sorry to interrupt you.
我当时正在拜访一个团队，他们正准备乘飞机返回旧金山国际机场，我只是站在那里做一些工作，关心我的事情，然后我上了飞机，正在和一位同事交谈，有人走过来，我想我以前从未见过他们，然后说：“嘿，很抱歉打扰你。
I'm so excited for your podcast with Lenny.
我对你和莱尼的播客感到非常兴奋。
I can't wait for it." And then just walks away and I was like, "What is going on right now?
我等不及了。”然后就走开，我想，“现在发生了什么事？
Lenny is a big deal.
莱尼是个大人物。
I don't even know how this person knows me." And that's how I knew Lenny, that I had to reschedule with you because I was like, if people are coming up to me and telling me that they're excited, I was like, there is a lot of anticipation.
我什至不知道这个人是怎么认识我的。”这就是我认识莱尼的方式，我必须和你重新安排时间，因为我想，如果人们来找我并告诉我他们很兴奋，我就想，有很多期待。
And Lenny, the power of your reach now is legit.
莱尼，你现在的影响力是合法的。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is hilarious.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太搞笑了。
That's a new strategy for me to get people on the podcast just say they're going to be on the podcast and then the pressure will start.
这对我来说是一个新策略，让播客上的人们只是说他们要上播客，然后压力就会开始。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so there's two broad topics that I want to spend our time on today.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，今天我想讨论两个广泛的主题。
I want to talk about career advice and growth advice and they're both essentially growth oriented, one's career growth, one is product growth.
我想谈谈职业建议和成长建议，它们本质上都是以成长为导向的，一个是职业成长，一个是产品成长。
How does that sound?
听起来怎么样？
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Wizard, empowering product leaders to ideate and iterate faster than ever before.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Wizard 为您带来，使产品领导者能够比以往更快地构思和迭代。
With the power of AI.
借助人工智能的力量。
As a product manager, I often spend hours taking screenshots and then annotating them with feedback for my team.
作为产品经理，我经常花几个小时截取屏幕截图，然后为我的团队提供反馈注释。
With Wizard, I can simply upload my screenshot and Wizards AI will turn them into a fully editable UI design that I can then take, make tweaks to and then share with my teams in minutes.
借助 Wizard，我可以简单地上传我的屏幕截图，Wizards AI 会将它们转换为完全可编辑的 UI 设计，然后我可以对其进行调整，然后在几分钟内与我的团队共享。
And when I want to get really creative and explore totally new ways to improve our product experience, I can use Wizard's AI to generate new design concepts from simple text prompts and turn them into interactive prototypes effortlessly.
当我想要发挥真正的创造力并探索全新的方法来改善我们的产品体验时，我可以使用 Wizard 的 AI 从简单的文本提示中生成新的设计概念，并轻松地将它们转变为交互式原型。
There's a reason that over 2.6 million people have trusted Wizard to accelerate every phase of their product lifecycle and speed up time to market.
超过 260 万人信任 Wizard 来加速其产品生命周期的每个阶段并加快上市时间，这是有原因的。
Developers can even export UI components to React and CSS to speed up their development.
开发人员甚至可以将 UI 组件导出到 React 和 CSS 以加快开发速度。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wizards drag and drop editor is super easy to use and you can collaborate in real time with your entire team.
Lenny Rachitsky：Wizards 拖放编辑器非常易于使用，您可以与整个团队实时协作。
Even your CO and customer service teams can contribute.
甚至您的 CO 和客户服务团队也可以做出贡献。
Unlock all of Wizards game changing AI powered features and more with 25% off Wizards Pro annual plan.
解锁所有威世智改变游戏规则的人工智能功能以及更多威世智 Pro 年度计划 25% 的折扣。
Visit uizard.io/lenny and use code: Lenny to check out today.
请访问 uizard.io/lenny 并使用代码：Lenny 立即查看。
That's uizard.io/lenny.
那是 uizard.io/lenny。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Mercury.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Mercury 为您带来。
Mercury knows your financial operations are complex.
水星知道你的财务运作很复杂。
It doesn't have to be this way.
事情不必是这样的。
I've been a super happy customer at Mercury for over a year now, and it's honestly hard to imagine a better online banking experience can exist.
我已经成为 Mercury 的超级客户一年多了，说实话，很难想象还会有更好的网上银行体验。
Most founders and finance teams have to couple together a patchwork of tools to reconcile transactions from different sources, work extra hard just to get a holistic view of cash flow and have maps to company priorities, and struggle to get answers from platforms that all speak different languages.
大多数创始人和财务团队必须将各种工具组合在一起，以协调来自不同来源的交易，加倍努力才能获得现金流的整体视图并绘制公司优先事项的地图，并努力从使用不同语言的平台获得答案。
Lenny Rachitsky: Mercury knows that there's an art to simplifying this complex patchwork with new bill pay and accounting capabilities, you can pay bills faster, stay in control of company's spend and speed up reconciliation.
Lenny Rachitsky：Mercury 知道，通过新的账单支付和会计功能来简化这种复杂的拼凑是一门艺术，您可以更快地支付账单、控制公司支出并加快对账速度。
The end result is the precision, control and focus that startups need to transform how they operate.
最终结果是初创公司改变其运营方式所需的精确性、控制力和专注力。
Lenny Rachitsky: Apply in minutes at mercury.com and join over 200,000 ambitious startups like mine that trust Mercury to get them to perform at their best.
Lenny Rachitsky：只需几分钟即可在mercury.com 上申请并加入像我这样的超过200,000 家雄心勃勃的初创公司，这些公司相信Mercury 能够帮助他们发挥最佳水平。
Mercury, the art of Simplified Finances.
水星，简化财务的艺术。
Lenny Rachitsky: Mercury is a financial technology company, not a bank.
Lenny Rachitsky：Mercury 是一家金融科技公司，而不是银行。
Banking services provided by Choice Financial Group and Evolve Bank & Trust.
由 Choice Financial Group 和 Evolve Bank & Trust 提供的银行服务。
Members FDIC.
联邦存款保险公司成员。
So let's maybe start with the career.
那么让我们从职业开始吧。
You wrote this legendary blog post called How to Choose Where to Work and What to Work On that a few people have mentioned to me was really impactful in their career.
您写了这篇传奇性的博客文章，名为“如何选择工作地点和工作内容”，一些人向我提到这对他们的职业生涯确实产生了影响。
And just to remind people of your career path, which they'll hear in the intro, but just to give people a reason to listen to your advice on career, you are early growth PM at Facebook, you're Head of Growth at Instagram, you're VP of Product at Instacart.
只是为了提醒人们你的职业道路，他们会在介绍中听到，但只是为了让人们有理由听取你的职业建议，你是 Facebook 的早期增长 PM，你是 Instagram 的增长主管，你是 Instacart 的产品副总裁。
You worked with a ton of amazing startups as an advisor, including Twitter, you're now Director of Product Management at YouTube.
您曾作为顾问与众多出色的初创公司合作过，其中包括 Twitter，您现在是 YouTube 的产品管理总监。
This is a career that many people would dream of having.
这是很多人都梦想拥有的职业。
So let's just spend a little time on this topic of how to choose where to work and what to work on.
因此，让我们花一点时间讨论如何选择工作地点和工作内容的主题。
And I know you kind of have this framework in this post, so maybe that's a good way to start out just how you broadly think about where to work and what to work on?
我知道你在这篇文章中已经有了这个框架，所以也许这是一个很好的方式来开始你如何广泛地思考在哪里工作以及做什么工作？
Bangaly Kaba: Yeah, that blog post that you're referring to actually came out of a personal struggle that I had when I was at Facebook and trying to decide what my next move should be.
Bangaly Kaba：是的，你提到的那篇博文实际上是我在 Facebook 时经历的个人挣扎，试图决定我的下一步行动应该是什么。
I felt like I was kind of stuck.
我感觉自己有点被困住了。
I felt like I was working harder but not seeing incremental benefit to the work that I was doing.
我觉得我工作更加努力了，但并没有看到我所做的工作带来更多的好处。
And I knew that I needed a change, but emotionally I understood that, but I couldn't really have an objective way of thinking about it.
我知道我需要改变，但在情感上我理解这一点，但我无法真正客观地思考它。
And so I really pushed myself to figure out what is actually going on with my situation and how do I create a way that I can rely on objectively to understand what's actually going on?
因此，我真的迫使自己弄清楚我的情况到底发生了什么，以及如何创建一种我可以客观依赖的方式来了解实际情况？
And so I looked at that situation and I wrote that post and the framework is really that there's impact that you're really trying to drive and that is the thing that is the most important.
所以我研究了这种情况，写了那篇文章，框架确实是你真正想要推动的影响，这是最重要的事情。
And the impact is only achievable by looking at two sets of variables, a set of variables related to the environment, a set of variables related to your skills, and really breaking down each and understanding what's happening in the environment bit by bit and what's happening with your skills and where are you hindered structurally within the environment?
只有通过查看两组变量，一组与环境相关的变量，一组与您的技能相关的变量，并真正分解每个变量并了解环境中发生的事情一点一点、您的技能发生了什么以及您在环境中的结构性阻碍，才能实现影响？
Where are your skills kind of lacking and what do you have control over?
您的技能在哪些方面有所欠缺？您可以控制什么？
And using that whole kind of output, that framework to decide what makes the most sense.
并使用整个类型的输出、该框架来决定什么最有意义。
Lenny Rachitsky: Why is impact the key output of this equation?
Lenny Rachitsky：为什么影响力是这个方程的关键输出？
I think for a lot of people that isn't necessarily the intuitive variable that they think is important to focus on.
我认为对于很多人来说，这不一定是他们认为重要的直观变量。
Why is that so important in your experience?
为什么这在您的经验中如此重要？
Bangaly Kaba: Yeah, I mean I didn't really know how to think about what the right thing to optimize for was initially, and I realized that it's not compensation.
Bangaly Kaba：是的，我的意思是，我最初并不真正知道如何思考优化的正确内容是什么，我意识到这不是补偿。
Compensation is a reflection of the input, the impact that you're having, and you're leveling how you are, how much scope you have is a derivative of how much impact you're driving.
薪酬反映了你的投入、你所产生的影响力，以及你对自己的水平的调整，你拥有的范围是你所产生的影响力的导数。
The more impact you're driving at your company, the more people feel like you can operate independently, you can drive real results the more that scope they'll give you.
您在公司中产生的影响力越大，人们就越觉得您可以独立运营，您可以推动真正的成果，他们给您的范围就越大。
So really impact became the thing to optimize for.
因此，真正的影响力就成为了需要优化的因素。
It is the import and compensation becomes an output based on that.
这是输入，补偿成为基于此的输出。
Lenny Rachitsky: I think this is a really important point that is easy to miss and this is what I always tell people when they're looking for ways to get promoted and do well in companies, just find ways to have more impact.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这是非常重要的一点，但很容易被忽视，这就是我总是告诉人们，当他们在公司寻找晋升和表现良好的方法时，只要找到产生更大影响力的方法即可。
Can you maybe make it even more concrete?
你能说得更具体一些吗？
What does impact mean to you when you talk about impact?
当您谈论影响力时，影响力对您意味着什么？
Bangaly Kaba: Yeah, I mean, so impact can be a lot of things, but I think for a product manager for example, it's really one, helping to drive extreme clarity about where the problems with the product, where there's opportunities and what is the right focus and prioritization?
Bangaly Kaba：是的，我的意思是，影响可能有很多方面，但我认为对于产品经理来说，它确实是一个，有助于非常清楚地了解产品的问题在哪里，机会在哪里，以及正确的焦点和优先级是什么？
That is actually a form of impact.
这实际上是一种影响。
Just creating the clarity that people need to understand and believe in the investment.
只是创造人们需要理解和相信投资的清晰度。
The reason why I name this and it feels a little counterintuitive is that the more senior you get, the more there are questions of are we even investing in the right place, right?
我之所以这样命名，感觉有点违反直觉，是因为你的级别越高，就越会质疑我们是否投资在正确的地方，对吗？
Is this area, is this team, is this org the right investment?
这个领域、这个团队、这个组织是正确的投资吗？
And so being able to even create the clarity that there is opportunity, it is the right thing to do, it is strategically and structurally important, is a form of impact.
因此，能够明确表明存在机会，这是正确的事情，在战略和结构上都很重要，是一种影响形式。
And then actually delivering on that impact, showing that you can make progress quickly, that you can deliver fast lane wins as Casey Winters would say, or medium and slow wins and then actually showing that you can do this again and again is how you actually validate the impact that you can see where the opportunity is and what's going on.
然后实际实现这种影响，表明你可以快速取得进展，你可以像凯西温特斯所说的那样实现快车道胜利，或者中速和慢速胜利，然后实际表明你可以一次又一次地做到这一点，这就是你如何真正验证影响力，你可以看到机会在哪里以及正在发生的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Okay.
好的。
So this equation is impact equals environment type skills.
所以这个等式是影响等于环境类型技能。
Can you talk a bit about how to work on these two elements?
您能谈谈如何处理这两个要素吗？
Bangaly Kaba: So the environment was the one to me, that I think is most people overlook and I overlooked when I was first thinking about this.
Bangaly Kaba：所以环境对我来说是一个，我认为大多数人都忽视了这一点，当我第一次考虑这个问题时我也忽视了这一点。
Environment in this case, I think I kind of discreetly named a few things.
在这种情况下，我想我谨慎地命名了一些东西。
One is your manager, then there's the resources.
一是你的经理，二是资源。
So what kind of team do you have?
那么你们有什么样的团队呢？
Is your team staffed appropriately?
您的团队配备合适吗？
Do you have the right P&L, whatever budget to get the things done that you need?
无论预算如何，您是否有正确的损益表来完成您需要的事情？
Then there's a scope, what is in your remit versus not in your remit?
然后还有一个范围，什么是在你的职权范围内，什么是不在你的职权范围内？
Because if you don't have enough scope, then you can't actually focus on the things that are most important.
因为如果你没有足够的范围，那么你实际上就无法专注于最重要的事情。
The team itself, the skills, relative skills of the team, your compensation in some ways is part of the environment because if you're not compensated fairly, you don't believe you are, then it's hard to feel like the work that you're doing is meaningful.
团队本身、团队的技能、相关技能、你的报酬在某些方面都是环境的一部分，因为如果你没有得到公平的报酬，你不相信自己是公平的，那么你就很难觉得你所做的工作是有意义的。
Bangaly Kaba: And then there is the last part is the company culture.
Bangaly Kaba：最后一部分是公司文化。
So to what extent is the culture a place where you feel supported, included, you feel like you can do your best work?
那么，这种文化在多大程度上是让你感到支持、包容、让你觉得自己能做到最好的工作的地方呢？
And so you are really looking at each one of these variables, and I look at this every year and I say, "How is my manager doing?" How do I think about my manager?
所以你真的会关注这些变量中的每一个，我每年都会关注这个变量，然后我会说：“我的经理做得怎么样？”我如何看待我的经理？
How do I think about the resources I have, the scope, the team, the conversation, the company culture and to what extent?
我如何考虑我拥有的资源、范围、团队、对话、公司文化以及程度如何？
And I score them, I score them as a 1 means it's kind of neutral.
我给他们打分，我给他们打分 1 意味着它是中性的。
A 2 means that I'm greatly benefiting from this situation and something even closer to zero is I'm not in a good place.
2 意味着我从这种情况中受益匪浅，更接近于零的是我处境不佳。
So I assign a score in quarter point increments, 0.25, 0.5, 0.751 up to 2 every year.
因此，我每年都会以四分之一分的增量分配分数，从 0.25、0.5、0.751 一直到 2。
And I really ask myself, what is the state of each one of these and to what extent do I believe that they can and will change?
我真的问自己，其中每一个的状态是什么？我相信它们能够并且将会改变到什么程度？
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, I love this.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇，我喜欢这个。
So there's this formula, impact equals environment times skills.
所以有这个公式，影响力等于环境乘以技能。
Within environment there's these five variables and they add up to 10?
环境中有这五个变量，它们加起来是 10？
Lenny Rachitsky: If they each give you two points.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果他们每人给你两分。
That's so cool.
太酷了。
Okay, so the five, just to be clear, your manager, the resources you have, is teams number three?
好的，所以，要明确的是，五个团队，你的经理，你拥有的资源，是第三个团队吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: Compensation and then the culture of the team?
Lenny Rachitsky：薪酬，然后是团队文化？
Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, there's six.
Lenny Rachitsky：哦，有六个。
Okay, got it.
好的，明白了。
So it's up to 12.
所以最多是12个。
So the idea here is you score each of these of how you're feeling, how the environment is contributing to the impact that you're delivering.
所以这里的想法是，你对你的感受、环境如何影响你所产生的影响进行评分。
And if one of these is not a great score, that's an opportunity to improve your impact, which will improve your career?
如果其中一项得分不是很高，那么这是一个提高你的影响力的机会，这会改善你的职业生涯吗？
Bangaly Kaba: That's right, and you have to really be honest.
Bangaly Kaba：是的，你必须非常诚实。
I think part of what makes this framework so powerful for me at least, is that it helps you to be honest around what are the things that are limiting your ability to have impact and for your skills to really land?
我认为这个框架至少对我来说如此强大的部分原因是，它可以帮助你诚实地认识到哪些因素限制了你发挥影响力以及限制你的技能真正发挥作用的能力？
And to what extent do you believe that you can help to change or try to influence the change in the environment?
您认为您可以在多大程度上帮助改变或尝试影响环境的变化？
Because no one wants to be in a place where there's a bad culture and the culture is a bad fit for you, but if you're not really thinking about it objectively and naming that, or maybe it's the culture of the team that is not the right place for you, so it really forces you to evaluate what's going on around you that's limiting your impact.
因为没有人愿意待在一个文化不好的地方，而且这种文化不适合你，但如果你没有真正客观地思考并指出它，或者团队的文化不适合你，那么它真的会迫使你评估周围发生的事情，从而限制了你的影响力。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there an example from your career you could share where one of these was not where it needed to be and either helped change it or realize you had to get out of there?
Lenny Rachitsky：在你的职业生涯中，有没有一个例子可以分享一下，其中一个问题没有达到它需要的位置，要么帮助改变它，要么意识到你必须离开那里？
Bangaly Kaba: When I was actually at Facebook, I was running the team that does all the people recommendations and it was a great team.
Bangaly Kaba：当我在 Facebook 工作时，我负责管理一个负责所有人员推荐的团队，这是一个很棒的团队。
I actually had a massive, massive team.
我实际上有一个非常非常庞大的团队。
I had 30 engineers I was working with, 15 machine learning engineers and 15 front end and back end engineers.
与我共事的工程师有 30 名，其中有 15 名机器学习工程师以及 15 名前端和后端工程师。
And so great team, incredible team, lot of resources, ton of scope.
如此伟大的团队，令人难以置信的团队，大量的资源，大量的范围。
In some ways it was too much scope and to me that was problematic because I really needed to build out, I felt like multiple teams to support the work that we were doing or to break it up; because it was, I mean the pace, the velocity you can imagine at Facebook was incredible.
在某些方面，范围太大，对我来说这是有问题的，因为我确实需要扩展，我觉得需要多个团队来支持我们正在做的工作或将其分解；因为，我的意思是，你可以想象 Facebook 的速度和速度是令人难以置信的。
And I felt like between all of the work that we needed to do, the amount of engineering capacity that we had and the amount that was on the table, I felt like I wasn't resourced in a way where I felt like I could actually deliver on all of the things that were necessary without burning myself out.
我觉得在我们需要做的所有工作、我们拥有的工程能力和摆在桌面上的工作量之间，我觉得我没有足够的资源，让我觉得我可以在不让自己精疲力尽的情况下真正交付所有必要的事情。
And I felt like I was burning myself out and I couldn't really see the forest through the trees because there was so much to do.
我感觉自己快要精疲力尽了，而且我无法真正透过树木看到森林，因为有太多事情要做。
Bangaly Kaba: And so that was a situation that I didn't really understand how to navigate at that point in my career.
Bangaly Kaba：所以在我职业生涯的那个阶段，我并不真正了解如何应对这种情况。
And there were two or three manager changes concurrently, and so I didn't have a manager to lean on that I felt like I had a relationship with to help me to navigate that space.
同时有两三个经理发生变化，所以我没有一个可以依靠的经理，我觉得我与他有关系来帮助我驾驭这个空间。
And I felt like the scope was actually too much for what needed to be done, and so I needed to find a better kind of fit for me.
我觉得范围实际上对于需要做的事情来说太多了，所以我需要找到一种更适合我的方式。
There was nothing wrong with the team, it was a great learning environment, but it was the confluence of scope and manager and all happening at once just wasn't a good fit for me.
团队没有任何问题，这是一个很好的学习环境，但它是范围和经理的融合，所有事情同时发生并不适合我。
Lenny Rachitsky: A lot of people are in these situations where they'd say they go through this score, they identify I have way too little scope, way too much scope like you described, and there's always this question of can I actually make a change or is this just not, am I not in a position?
Lenny Rachitsky：很多人都处于这样的情况，他们会说他们经历了这个分数，他们发现我的范围太小，就像你所描述的那样，范围太大，并且总是存在这样的问题：我是否可以真正做出改变，或者这只是不可以，我是否不适合？
Especially, I see product managers, there's just always a lot of, I can't actually change anything.
特别是，我看到产品经理，总是有很多，我实际上无法改变任何东西。
What do you often tell people around this that just feel like there's nothing I can do here and my manager sucks, what am I going to do?
你经常告诉周围的人，感觉我在这里无能为力，而且我的经理很糟糕，我该怎么办？
Bangaly Kaba: Well, I do think one of the things that I recognize is your manager.
Bangaly Kaba：嗯，我确实认为我认识的人之一就是你的经理。
Not all of these variables is created equal and the manager is the most important variable in the environment, because a great manager who is empathetic, who is aware of what's going on, who is a great communicator, has the ability to move the chess pieces around and to fix some of these for you either immediately or in time.
并非所有这些变量都是平等的，经理是环境中最重要的变量，因为一位优秀的经理具有同理心，了解正在发生的事情，善于沟通，有能力移动棋子并立即或及时为您解决其中的一些问题。
There's no one other than your manager who can really help to increase your scope or to help make sure that the team has the right pieces in place, or dial in some of the issues that you might see in culture.
除了您的经理之外，没有人可以真正帮助您扩大范围或帮助确保团队拥有正确的部分，或者解决您可能在文化中遇到的一些问题。
Bangaly Kaba: And so that is why people say they don't leave a job, they leave a manager because the manager is the one that has a lot of the power to fix a lot of these variables.
Bangaly Kaba：这就是为什么人们说他们离开的不是工作，而是经理，因为经理拥有很大的权力来解决很多这些变量。
And so really the question becomes like to what extent have you been able to clearly articulate what are the...
所以实际上问题变成了你能够在多大程度上清楚地阐明什么是......
And dispassionately articulate, what are the challenges that you're having, you're seeing across some of these variables with your manager?
冷静地阐明，您与经理一起遇到的一些变量是什么？
Help them to tie it back to how it's impacting your work and see if they can help you to create a plan to alleviate some of these things.
帮助他们将其与它对您工作的影响联系起来，看看他们是否可以帮助您制定一个计划来缓解其中的一些问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's super interesting.
Lenny Rachitsky：这非常有趣。
Then your experience with the manager is kind of the core of a lot of these variables.
那么你与经理的经历就是许多这些变量的核心。
Is there anything you recommend to people if their managers is not someone they like, is it just try to find a new manager or potentially leave?
如果人们的经理不是他们喜欢的人，您有什么建议吗？是尝试寻找新经理还是可能离开？
Bangaly Kaba: You're never going to always like your manager, right?
Bangaly Kaba：你永远不会一直喜欢你的经理，对吧？
That's not the...
那不是那个...
The goal isn't to like your manager.
目标不是喜欢你的经理。
Ideally, you respect them and they respect you, you feel like there's things that you can learn from them.
理想情况下，你尊重他们，他们也尊重你，你觉得你可以从他们身上学到一些东西。
Finding a new manager is always an option, but I guess sometimes the real question is, is actually spending time to try to understand what is your manager optimizing?
寻找新经理始终是一种选择，但我想有时真正的问题是，是否真的花时间尝试了解您的经理正在优化什么？
A lot of times I think there is a big disconnect between an IC focusing on their discrete area and try to optimize for local maxima, versus understanding, okay, my manager's thinking about these things and this is how I fit in, and understanding maybe they have a gap to understanding why your area is important.
很多时候，我认为 IC 专注于其离散区域并尝试优化局部最大值与理解（好吧，我的经理正在考虑这些事情，这就是我的融入方式）之间存在很大的脱节，而理解也许他们与理解为什么你的区域很重要之间存在很大的差距。
Or maybe there's stuff that's on your manager's plate that is actually adjacent to your remit that if you understood that they were optimizing for, you can take that on and you would find more synergies with what they're trying to do.
或者，也许你的经理的工作中有些事情实际上与你的职权范围相邻，如果你了解他们正在优化的目标，你就可以承担这个任务，你会发现与他们正在尝试做的事情有更多的协同作用。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that advice.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个建议。
Let's talk about the other side of this equation.
让我们谈谈这个等式的另一边。
We've talked about environment, let's talk about skills.
谈完了环境，我们再来谈谈技能。
What do you advise there for folks that want to improve their skills?
对于那些想要提高技能的人，您有什么建议？
Bangaly Kaba: The skills part is really, really big and it's something that requires I think, consistent evolution of your own abilities.
Bangaly Kaba：技能部分非常非常大，我认为这需要你自己能力的持续发展。
And so I broke it out in that blog post kind of communication, your ability to influence your leadership, strategic thinking and then execution, actually getting things done.
因此，我在那篇博文中阐述了沟通的方式，即影响领导力、战略思维和执行力的能力，以及实际完成工作的能力。
The communication above these, again, not all of these are created equal.
再说一遍，以上的沟通并非所有这些都是平等的。
I think communication is the one that tends to be the most impactful.
我认为沟通往往是最有影响力的一种。
And you see this in a lot of ways.
你可以从很多方面看到这一点。
You see this for people who are poor executors but incredible communicators and they seem to continue to rise and rise because they can tell a great story, but when you look under the covers, there's nothing there.
你可以在那些执行力差但沟通能力强的人身上看到这一点，他们似乎会不断崛起，因为他们可以讲述一个伟大的故事，但当你看到幕后，你会发现里面什么也没有。
There's no substance there.
那里没有任何物质。
Bangaly Kaba: So communication for better or worse is one of the most important things.
Bangaly Kaba：因此，无论好坏，沟通都是最重要的事情之一。
But building out your skills I think is really just kind of a, it is an interesting time to be in product and to be in tech right now because you have so many more ways to build out your skills than what previously existed.
但我认为培养你的技能实际上只是一种，现在是产品和技术领域的一个有趣的时刻，因为你有比以前更多的方法来培养你的技能。
Just so many incredible blog posts like your podcasts and blogs, there's so many incredible people who've come on here who tell you things like how to go to market, how to think about B2B SaaS and metrics.
有这么多令人难以置信的博客文章，比如您的播客和博客，还有这么多令人难以置信的人来到这里，告诉您如何进入市场、如何考虑 B2B SaaS 和指标等事情。
And so listening to you, reading Ben Thompson, understanding his mental models, if you go to look at Elena Verner or whoever, there's so many thought leaders who are out there.
因此，听听你的讲话，阅读本·汤普森（Ben Thompson），了解他的思维模式，如果你去看看埃琳娜·维尔纳（Elena Verner）或其他人，就会发现那里有很多思想领袖。
Bangaly Kaba: So I think being a voracious reader is really, really critical because it helps to build your toolkit and you need arrows in your quiver to really understand how to think about the right framework and the right mentor at the right time.
Bangaly Kaba：所以我认为成为一个贪婪的读者真的非常重要，因为它有助于构建你的工具包，你需要箭袋里的箭头才能真正理解如何在正确的时间思考正确的框架和正确的导师。
Bangaly Kaba: One thing I also tell people is people think about mentorship as like, I have a mentor, Lenny is my mentor, or John is my mentor.
Bangaly Kaba：我还告诉人们的一件事是，人们认为导师制就像是，我有一位导师，莱尼是我的导师，或者约翰是我的导师。
I tell them, it's actually better to have a stable of mentors.
我告诉他们，拥有稳定的导师实际上更好。
You want to have three or four.
你想要三四个。
And ideally, what you do is you meet with each one of them once a month on a different Friday of the month.
理想情况下，您所做的就是每月在不同的星期五与他们每个人会面一次。
And so you might have three or four people on every Friday you're meeting with someone different.
因此，每个星期五您可能会与三四个人会面，与不同的人会面。
And the reason why this is so important is because if you, Lenny, are a mentor to me and you're busy one Friday and we only meet once a month now I don't have anyone to talk to for two months.
这之所以如此重要，是因为如果你，莱尼，是我的导师，而你在某个周五很忙，而我们每个月只见一次面，那么现在我有两个月没有人可以交谈了。
And you're going through a lot of things and you're not really able to bounce ideas, or build skills or learn how influence others, but if you have three or four mentors, you have someone different to talk to every week.
你正在经历很多事情，你实际上无法激发想法，或培养技能或学习如何影响他人，但如果你有三到四位导师，你每周都会有不同的人可以交谈。
And if one or two of them cancel, you still have two people to talk to that month and you still can continue to grow and to build your thinking.
如果其中一两个人取消，那个月你仍然有两个人可以交谈，你仍然可以继续成长并建立你的想法。
Bangaly Kaba: So that's something I always recommend.
Bangaly Kaba：所以这是我一直推荐的。
And then the last thing I actually talk about is, when it comes to execution, I think people don't, especially product managers, don't do enough of watching and learning from others.
然后我真正谈论的最后一件事是，当谈到执行时，我认为人们，尤其是产品经理，没有做足够的观察和向他人学习。
There's an art and a science to product management.
产品管理既是一门艺术，也是一门科学。
And in a lot of ways I come from a background of education and in a lot of ways in product management, it's very similar.
在很多方面，我都有教育背景，在产品管理方面也有很多方面，这非常相似。
You want to watch how well the people hone their craft, how they deliver, how they lead teams and kind of steal things from them.
你想观察人们如何磨练自己的技艺、如何交付、如何领导团队以及如何从他们那里窃取东西。
Figure out, well, wow, Lenny did this really, really well when he was at Airbnb.
想想看，嗯，哇，莱尼在 Airbnb 时在这方面做得非常非常好。
It was really incredible.
实在是太不可思议了。
I'm going to take that.
我要接受这个。
I'm going to take how he runs that team, or how he landed that framework, or how he communicated this message and note it and use it in my own toolkit later on.
我将了解他如何管理该团队，或者他如何实现该框架，或者他如何传达此消息并记下它并稍后在我自己的工具包中使用它。
And so if you're really a student of product, you can't just be a student of theory, you've got to be a student of practice too, meaning you're going and you're looking, it's like, "Hey, I'd love to sit in your team meetings.
因此，如果你真的是产品的学生，你不能只是理论的学生，你还必须成为实践的学生，这意味着你要去，你正在寻找，就像，“嘿，我很想参加你们的团队会议。
Can I come watch?
我可以过来观看吗？
Or your PM meetings or your leadership meetings." And you are really like doing that for the sake of learning is really, really incredible.
或者你的总理会议或领导层会议。”你真的喜欢为了学习而这样做，这真的非常非常令人难以置信。
And that's some of the ways I talk about building skills.
这就是我谈论培养技能的一些方式。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there an example of that latter lesson that you learned from someone that comes to mind of watching someone and like, oh, I'm going to do that.
Lenny Rachitsky：有没有一个例子可以说明后一个教训，你从某人那里学到的，当你想到看某人时，就会想，哦，我要这么做。
Bangaly Kaba: Earlier in my career, when I first got to Instagram, I wasn't the first Growth PM, but I was one of the first and a guy who was there before me, his name was Georgia Lee, he actually stood up the growth team and ended up leaving six months right after I joined.
Bangaly Kaba：在我职业生涯的早期，当我第一次加入 Instagram 时，我并不是第一个增长项目经理，但我是第一批增长项目经理之一，而且是在我之前就在那里的人，他的名字叫 Georgia Lee，他实际上支持了增长团队，并在我加入后六个月就离开了。
But I watched, George was a really good listener.
但我观察到，乔治是一个非常好的倾听者。
He had just a really incredible ability to be in a room and hear what was going on, to recast it back and make sure that everyone felt good about where we were and what was being said and the path forward, and really crystallizing the action items and also how people felt about what the next steps were.
他有一种非常令人难以置信的能力，能够在一个房间里听到正在发生的事情，将其重新演绎，并确保每个人都对我们所处的位置、所说的内容和前进的道路感到满意，并真正具体化行动项目以及人们对下一步的感受。
And walking out of that meeting, it felt like he always had buy-in and clarity and was helpful to build trust.
离开那次会议后，我感觉他总是持支持态度，思路清晰，有助于建立信任。
You can see him almost winning trust in every moment of that meeting.
你可以看到他在那次会议的每一刻几乎都赢得了信任。
And that was something that I really admired, and learned, and kind sought to emulate later on in my career.
这是我真正钦佩、学到的东西，也是我后来在职业生涯中寻求效仿的东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's an awesome example.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很棒的例子。
It comes back to the skill of communication that you talked about, just the power becoming really good at that.
这又回到了你谈到的沟通技巧，就是变得非常擅长沟通的能力。
And this is such a simple skill you just described, is just recapping, here's what we talked about.
这是您刚才描述的一项简单技能，只是回顾一下，这就是我们讨论的内容。
Here's what we're going to do.
这就是我们要做的。
Here's the decisions we made.
这是我们做出的决定。
Here's action items.
这是行动项目。
It's not actually difficult, it's just-
其实并不难，只是——
Bangaly Kaba: It's not, actually.
Bangaly Kaba：实际上不是。
But what was magical about the way he did it.
但他的做法有何神奇之处。
It's like he would name people and their contributions and show how all of this came together into what is the path forward.
就好像他会列出人们的名字和他们的贡献，并展示所有这些如何共同形成前进的道路。
Bangaly Kaba: And it's the communication, but it's also the other side.
Bangaly Kaba：这是沟通，但也是另一面。
It's the other coin, the side of communication, which is eliciting to figure out how you communicate back to others.
这是另一枚硬币，即沟通的一面，它促使你弄清楚如何与他人沟通。
Lenny Rachitsky: So good.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太好了。
Following up on something else you talked about, which is mentors.
继续你谈到的其他事情，那就是导师。
Anytime someone talks about finding mentors, everyone's always, how do I find a mentor?
每当有人谈到寻找导师时，大家总是会问，我该如何寻找导师呢？
What advice do you share with folks of how to find a mentor to help?
关于如何寻找导师来提供帮助，您有什么建议与大家分享？
You say once a week or once a month?
你说每周一次还是每月一次？
Bangaly Kaba: Where I see people find the most success is they ask.
Bangaly Kaba：我发现人们最成功的地方就是他们提出要求。
They tell people what they're working on or what challenges they have and they say, "Do you know someone who I might be able to learn from who has done this or has good thinking about this recently?" So instead of just going to someone saying, "Hey, can you be a mentor?" Coming to me and say, "Hey, Bengaly, I'm actually trying to figure out how do I change the way this team operates because we need to go from this model to that model, but here's some of the challenges.
他们告诉人们他们正在做什么或面临什么挑战，然后他们说：“你知道有谁做过这件事，或者最近对此有很好的思考，我可以向他学习吗？”因此，不要只是去找某人说：“嘿，你能成为一名导师吗？”来找我说：“嘿，Bengaly，我实际上想弄清楚如何改变这个团队的运作方式，因为我们需要从这个模型转向那个模型，但这里有一些挑战。
So do you know someone who's actually really good at changing the way teams work or really good at communicating a new vision that I can talk to?"
那么你认识一个真正擅长改变团队工作方式或者真正擅长传达我可以与之交谈的新愿景的人吗？”
Bangaly Kaba: And so that I think is really important because what you do is you're creating a seed, and the seed is there's a triad and you have the person who's looking for the mentor.
Bangaly Kaba：所以我认为这非常重要，因为你所做的就是创造一颗种子，而种子就是有一个三合会，并且你有一个正在寻找导师的人。
You have the recommender, the recommender, and then you have the potential mentor.
你有推荐人，推荐人，然后你就有潜在的导师。
And the recommender is basically saying, "Here, there's common purpose between the two of you and I can see it, and I think this is important, so I want you all to come together." And that triad in that moment creates a higher affinity, highly likelihood that the person who needs the help and the person who you're connecting them with are going to see mutual benefit from one another.
推荐人基本上是在说，“在这里，你们两个之间有共同的目标，我可以看到它，我认为这很重要，所以我希望你们所有人走到一起。”在那一刻，这个三合会创造了一种更高的亲和力，极有可能需要帮助的人和与你联系的人会看到彼此的共同利益。
And I think I find that just doing that and seeding that and being really focused on what the opportunity or the challenge is, tends to lead to better connections as opposed to just reaching out and saying, "Hey, I like your style.
我认为我发现只要这样做并播种并真正专注于机会或挑战是什么，往往会带来更好的联系，而不是仅仅伸出援手说：“嘿，我喜欢你的风格。
Will you be my mentor?"
你愿意当我的导师吗？”
Lenny Rachitsky: So essentially share with folks you trust, here's what I'm working on.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以基本上与你信任的人分享，这就是我正在做的事情。
See if they recommend someone that could help you with that specific skill versus assuming that there's this person that can help you with this skill?
看看他们是否会推荐可以帮助您掌握该特定技能的人，而不是假设这个人可以帮助您掌握该技能？
Lenny Rachitsky: I love it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢它。
Going back to your advice on career, something that you wrote about in your post plus folks have told me you're really big on, is this something you call understand work?
回到你对职业的建议，你在帖子中写到的东西，加上人们告诉我你真的很喜欢，这是你所谓的理解工作吗？
Does that ring a bell?
这是否敲响了警钟？
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
Talk about that and why that's important?
谈谈这个以及为什么这很重要？
Bangaly Kaba: I certainly cannot take credit for understand work.
Bangaly Kaba：我当然不能因为理解工作而获得荣誉。
This is part of an old Facebook framework of understand, identify, execute.
这是旧的 Facebook 理解、识别、执行框架的一部分。
What I-
我什么-
Bangaly Kaba: Facebook framework of understand, identify, execute.
Bangaly Kaba：Facebook 的理解、识别、执行框架。
What I probably will say is I guess I've been the shepherd for understand work in other companies.
我可能会说的是，我想我一直是其他公司理解工作的引导者。
I've taken it from my time at Facebook and Relink Institute or rigorously at Instagram, then at Instacart and when I helped with Twitter, now at YouTube.
我从我在 Facebook 和 Relink Institute 的经历中学到了这一点，或者严格地在 Instagram 工作，然后在 Instacart 工作，以及在 Twitter 工作时学到的，现在在 YouTube 工作。
The way I like to talk about it with my teams is that first I tell a story actually, and the story is we've all had a moment where we have worked on something with a team, super excited, finally it launches and we go out to dinner and we celebrate.
我喜欢和我的团队谈论这个问题的方式是，首先我实际上讲一个故事，这个故事是我们都有过这样的时刻，我们和一个团队一起工作，非常兴奋，最后它启动了，我们出去吃晚饭，我们庆祝。
And we're celebrating, everyone's juiced.
我们正在庆祝，每个人都兴奋不已。
It's great night.
这是一个美好的夜晚。
You go back to the office the next day and you look at the metrics and the metrics are flat and everyone's a little bummed.
第二天你回到办公室，查看指标，发现指标持平，每个人都有点沮丧。
Why did this happen?
为什么会发生这种情况？
Right.
正确的。
Why are the metrics flat?
为什么指标持平？
What happened?
发生了什么？
We worked so hard.
我们非常努力。
Bangaly Kaba: And ultimately when you unpack it, you realize that you built something that you thought was going to be a good idea, but you really didn't understand a lot of key components of what people really needed, what pain points really existed, or what were the alternatives and what the real value of those alternatives were in the market, or exactly how the product needed to work, what the flywheel or what the experience needed to be.
Bangaly Kaba：最终，当你打开它时，你会意识到你构建了一些你认为是个好主意的东西，但你真的不了解人们真正需要什么、真正存在什么痛点、或者替代方案是什么以及这些替代方案在市场上的真正价值是什么、或者产品到底需要如何工作、飞轮或体验需要什么等很多关键组成部分。
And so that is what I call the anti-pattern of what we want to do and I call that identify, justify, execute.
这就是我所说的我们想做的事情的反模式，我称之为识别、证明、执行。
Right.
正确的。
Where you identify something, someone says, "Hey, you know what?
当你发现某件事时，有人会说：“嘿，你知道吗？
This would be great to build." And you identify that, then you go pull data to go justify why that would be great to build and then you sink an ungodly amount of time working on it in order to make it work, but it ultimately doesn't succeed.
建造这个会很棒。”你确定了这一点，然后你去提取数据来证明为什么构建它会很棒，然后你投入了大量的时间来使其工作，但最终没有成功。
Bangaly Kaba: And that is the anti-pattern to what is kind of like the Facebook kind of way of thinking, which is understand, identify, execute, right?
Bangaly Kaba：这就是 Facebook 思维方式的反模式，即理解、识别、执行，对吧？
So first you have to really understand from first principles what is actually going on.
因此，首先你必须从基本原则真正理解到底发生了什么。
So when we talk about understand work, there's a few ways to think about it.
因此，当我们谈论理解工作时，有几种思考方式。
One is, it is an intentional affordance in your execution to do the work that helps you to de-risk a project and to learn what's going on.
一是，它是您执行工作时有意提供的功能，可以帮助您降低项目风险并了解正在发生的情况。
When I say an intentional affordance, meaning you put it down like Lenny is going to work on this thing.
当我说有意提供时，意思是你把它放下，就像莱尼要处理这件事一样。
Right.
正确的。
Lenny as a product manager is going to write a strategy.
莱尼作为产品经理要写一个策略。
Janice as a designer is going to design a prototype, whatever the thing is, and you put it down as actual an item as opposed to assuming it's going to happen in the background.
作为一名设计师，珍妮丝将设计一个原型，无论是什么，你都将其视为实际的项目，而不是假设它会在后台发生。
We don't make an affordance for understand work, then the work doesn't get done and everyone's just sprinting on execution.
我们不提供理解工作的能力，那么工作就无法完成，每个人都只是冲刺执行。
Bangaly Kaba: And so it's a planned intentional time to the team's bandwidth to figure out what is it that we need to do to understand what's happening.
Bangaly Kaba：因此，这是一个计划好的团队带宽时间，以弄清楚我们需要做什么来了解正在发生的事情。
And so for example at Instagram we did a lot of understand work of what makes for a good connection?
例如，在 Instagram，我们做了很多了解什么才能建立良好联系的工作？
Right.
正确的。
How do we want to think about that?
我们要如何思考这个问题？
How do we want to make sure that we're actually growing a graph, a social graph that makes sense?
我们如何确保我们实际上正在生成一个图表，一个有意义的社交图表？
And so I might work with data science to do understand work, to pull a funnel and look at the different types of connections for different types of users and make it make sense.
因此，我可能会与数据科学合作来理解工作，拉出一个漏斗并查看不同类型用户的不同类型的连接并使其有意义。
Right.
正确的。
And engineering might do understand work to instrument logging to make sure that we have the data that we need in order to tell the story.
工程学可能确实了解仪器记录的工作，以确保我们拥有讲述故事所需的数据。
And so you're doing this understand work to basically better understand the gaps in knowledge.
所以你做这个理解工作基本上是为了更好地理解知识差距。
What's also really interesting is that understand work helps you to clarify what is a root cause, or what is a job to be done, or what is the right use case?
真正有趣的是，理解工作可以帮助您澄清根本原因是什么，或者要完成的工作是什么，或者正确的用例是什么？
Bangaly Kaba: And because the team adopts this mentality, it becomes this forcing function for execution.
Bangaly Kaba：因为团队采用了这种心态，所以它成为执行的强制功能。
So when someone says, "You know what we should build?
因此，当有人说：“你知道我们应该构建什么吗？
We should build this." You have a team that's enabled and empowered to say, "That's a good idea, but we don't actually understand these three things before we start working on that.
我们应该建造这个。”你有一个团队，他们有能力并有权说：“这是一个好主意，但在我们开始研究之前，我们实际上并不理解这三件事。
So maybe we should do understand work to make sure that that is actually the right idea." Right.
因此，也许我们应该做一些理解工作，以确保这确实是正确的想法。”正确的。
And so what you end up getting by embracing this concept is two things.
因此，通过接受这个概念，你最终会得到两件事。
You get parallel paths of work.
你会得到并行的工作路径。
So every sprint, let's say you do a three-week sprint or a three-month roadmap, you're executing on the things that you have a lot of conviction around and you're also doing understand work in parallel.
因此，每次冲刺，假设您进行了为期三周的冲刺或三个月的路线图，您都在执行您坚信的事情，并且同时也在做理解工作。
And so at the end of the sprint you have learnings from what you executed.
因此，在冲刺结束时，您可以从执行的内容中学到一些东西。
Wow, that test or that launch worked really well.
哇，那个测试或那个发布效果非常好。
We should double down.
我们应该加倍努力。
Or Wow, that test or launch didn't work.
或者哇，那个测试或发布没有成功。
Here's how we should pivot.
这是我们应该如何转向的。
And you have insights from the understand work and you use both of those to plan the next sprints or roadmap.
您可以从理解工作中获得见解，并使用这两者来规划下一个冲刺或路线图。
Right.
正确的。
Bangaly Kaba: And so because you have this parallel path, you end up getting this velocity multiplier over time.
Bangaly Kaba：因为你有这条平行路径，所以随着时间的推移，你最终会得到这个速度倍增。
Right.
正确的。
So the next sprint, and the third sprint, and the fourth sprint, every subsequent sprint you de-risk new ideas, you've gotten more clarity.
因此，在下一个冲刺、第三个冲刺和第四个冲刺中，每个后续冲刺都会降低新想法的风险，你会变得更加清晰。
And so you do more execution, you do better execution and you move faster and the things you ship, you have a higher win rate on the things you ship, right?
所以你会执行更多，执行得更好，行动更快，你所交付的东西，你所交付的东西的获胜率会更高，对吧？
And your shipping, I remember when I left Instagram, this is many years ago, but we had 15 teams and we might've been running 12 to 20 experiments a quarter a team, and I would say probably 60 to 70% of them were positive and shippable, which is incredible.
至于你的发货，我记得当我离开 Instagram 时，这是很多年前的事了，但我们有 15 个团队，每个团队可能会进行 12 到 20 次实验，我想说其中可能有 60 到 70% 是积极的并且可以发货，这是令人难以置信的。
I mean, you think about and multiple and the magnitude of that and it was because we were so effective at de-risking and understanding what was going on.
我的意思是，你会仔细考虑其重要性，这是因为我们在降低风险和了解正在发生的事情方面非常有效。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is really interesting.
Lenny Rachitsky：这真的很有趣。
I imagine many people listening here are like, we put time into understanding, we run experiments, we write strategy docs, we use research.
我想很多在这里听的人都会说，我们投入时间来理解，我们进行实验，我们编写策略文档，我们进行研究。
What is it that you think people are, where do you think they're missing?
你认为人是什么？你认为他们在哪里失踪？
Is it that you dedicate people's actual time, like you're just doing understand work instead of building a new thing.
是不是你投入了人们的实际时间，就像你只是在做理解工作而不是构建一个新事物一样。
For this next sprint, you're just going to be telling us what the problem here or opportunity is.
对于下一个冲刺，您只需告诉我们这里的问题或机会是什么。
How do you actually operationalize this versus just what people probably already do, which is user research, data dives?
与人们可能已经做的事情（用户研究、数据潜水）相比，你如何实际实施这一点？
Bangaly Kaba: What I found is a couple things.
Bangaly Kaba：我发现了一些事情。
One is when your team does not fully understand a problem space, the balance of work tends to be higher.
一是当你的团队没有完全理解某个问题空间时，工作的平衡性往往会更高。
I think when I started at YouTube we were doing 60% execution, 40% understand work.
我想当我刚加入 YouTube 时，我们的工作中 60% 是执行力，40% 是理解力。
Right.
正确的。
And over time, as we understand more and more, the mix shifts.
随着时间的推移，随着我们了解的越来越多，这种组合也会发生变化。
Now my teams are probably doing 80% execution, 20 to or 85% and 20 to 15% understand work.
现在我的团队可能执行 80%，20% 或 85% 以及 20% 到 15% 理解工作。
Bangaly Kaba: And so it's not just about writing a strategy, it's about saying, okay, if we have these themes of stuff that we want to work on, what do we know with confidence because the data tells us and what do we need to understand because we don't have the data, we don't have the research, we don't have the insights?
Bangaly Kaba：所以这不仅仅是写一个策略，而是说，好吧，如果我们有我们想要研究的这些主题，我们可以自信地知道什么，因为数据告诉我们，我们需要理解什么，因为我们没有数据，我们没有研究，我们没有见解？
And really being honest with yourselves around what are the things that are low to medium effort but high likelihood of being impactful because you have the data and what are the things that you are interested in perhaps doing, but because you're missing something, you're missing research or feedback from users or data or some insights or strategy.
真正对自己诚实，哪些事情是低到中等的努力，但很有可能产生影响，因为你有数据，哪些事情你可能感兴趣，但因为你错过了一些东西，你错过了来自用户或数据的研究或反馈，或者一些见解或策略。
You should actually say, I'm going to go do this before I do something else.
你实际上应该说，我要先做这件事，然后再做其他事情。
Right.
正确的。
Bangaly Kaba: An example of this is one of my teams ships paid virtual goods in the live experience on YouTube.
Bangaly Kaba：这方面的一个例子是我的一个团队在 YouTube 上的现场体验中运送付费虚拟商品。
And that's a really, really important and hard problem space.
这是一个非常非常重要且困难的问题空间。
And when I joined, we didn't really fully understand the whole live ecosystem, like how we lived in that live ecosystem, how our products worked, where the biggest opportunity was.
当我加入时，我们并没有真正完全了解整个实时生态系统，比如我们如何生活在这个实时生态系统中，我们的产品如何运作，最大的机会在哪里。
So the first and most important piece of understand work was instead of shipping iterations to the current product, we needed to actually get the funnel of what was happening.
因此，第一个也是最重要的理解工作不是将迭代交付到当前产品，而是需要实际了解正在发生的事情。
Right.
正确的。
Like what's happening with how many people are watching live every day, how many people are clicking through, how many people are seeing our experience, how many people actually buying it?
比如每天有多少人观看直播，有多少人点击，有多少人看到我们的体验，有多少人真正购买？
We didn't really fully have the experience mapped out and to understand where were the gaps and where are the problem space is in, where should we be focusing?
我们并没有真正充分地规划出经验，也没有了解差距在哪里，问题空间在哪里，我们应该关注哪里？
Bangaly Kaba: And so we had to do that.
Bangaly Kaba：所以我们必须这样做。
And that was understand work for multiple people, for multiple teams.
这就是理解多人、多个团队的工作。
We had to do on the engineering side, we needed data science as analysis.
我们必须在工程方面做，我们需要数据科学作为分析。
We needed the PM to go and dog through the experience to figure out what was broken.
我们需要产品经理仔细回顾整个经历，找出问题所在。
All of that was intentional and an affordance on our roadmaps.
所有这些都是有意为之的，也是我们路线图上的可供性。
Lenny Rachitsky: What's interesting about this is that this is very counterintuitive to how people would probably approach, hey, we need to speed up execution, we need to speed up growth, we need to ship more, execute, go faster, do more.
Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是，这与人们可能的做法非常违反直觉，嘿，我们需要加快执行速度，我们需要加快增长，我们需要运送更多，执行，走得更快，做得更多。
And what you're saying is you find the impact comes from actually slow down how much we're doing and spend more time understanding to execute more intelligently.
你的意思是，你发现影响实际上来自于放慢我们正在做的事情，并花更多时间理解以更智能地执行。
Bangaly Kaba: That's right.
Bangaly Kaba：没错。
Slow down and speed up.
放慢速度并加快速度。
Lenny Rachitsky: Fascinating.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：令人着迷。
Because it's interesting, I have a bunch of questions that emerged out of folks that you've worked with and many of them are around how you turn a culture around, speed things up, and drive growth in a really meaningful way.
因为这很有趣，我有很多与你共事过的人提出的问题，其中许多问题都围绕着你如何扭转一种文化，加快发展速度，并以一种真正有意义的方式推动增长。
And it sounds like this is one of your key strategies, is get people to spend more time understanding before diving into a bunch of stuff.
听起来这是你的关键策略之一，就是让人们在深入研究一堆东西之前花更多的时间来理解。
Bangaly Kaba: It does sound counterintuitive, but if you actually think about it, what is a better outcome?
Bangaly Kaba：这听起来确实违反直觉，但如果你真正考虑一下，更好的结果是什么？
Is it a better outcome to just ship more faster now, but most of the things aren't unimpactful?
现在只是更快地发货是不是更好的结果，但大多数事情并非没有影响？
Right.
正确的。
Or is it a better outcome to ship fewer things but really work on making sure that you're shipping them in the best way and de-risking a lot of other things so that a year later your win rate's higher and your velocity is higher?
或者，运送更少的东西，但真正努力确保以最佳方式运送它们，并降低许多其他东西的风险，以便一年后你的获胜率更高，你的速度更高，这是一个更好的结果吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, I think counterintuitive is the wrong word.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我认为“反直觉”这个词是错误的。
I think it makes sense.
我认为这是有道理的。
I think it's just no one does this.
我认为只是没有人这样做。
Usually everyone's like, move faster, we need more and ship more experiments.
通常每个人都会说，行动得更快，我们需要更多并进行更多的实验。
Bangaly Kaba: Well, I mean this is the irony of growth, is people think growth is overnight success and it's not.
Bangaly Kaba：嗯，我的意思是，这是增长的讽刺，人们认为增长是一夜成名，但事实并非如此。
Right.
正确的。
It is a lot of short wins and short-term execution for a longer-term gain and really understanding you have a lot of short terms towards the longer-term outcomes.
这是为了获得长期收益而进行的大量短期胜利和短期执行，并且真正了解您有很多短期目标来实现长期结果。
Lenny Rachitsky: So that people can take away this lesson, can you help people understand just when you say understand work, like what does that look like generally?
Lenny Rachitsky：为了让人们吸取这一教训，当你说理解工作时，你能帮助人们理解，就像一般情况下是什么样子吗？
Is it just a dedicated time to dive into data and answer a bunch of questions you've sent them?
这只是专门的时间来深入研究数据并回答您发送给他们的一堆问题吗？
Is it running experiments to test hypotheses?
是通过实验来检验假设吗？
What does that usually look like when you're, here let's do 40% understand work?
当你在这里让我们做 40% 的理解工作时，通常会是什么样子？
Bangaly Kaba: The understand work sometimes comes from me, but most often comes from the teams themselves.
Bangaly Kaba：理解工作有时来自我，但大多数情况下来自团队本身。
And every function can do and should be doing understand work at some point.
每个功能都可以并且应该在某个时候做理解工作。
Right.
正确的。
And so it really depends on what the function is.
所以这实际上取决于功能是什么。
So for an engineer, it could be looking at the code and saying, okay, we want to improve this.
因此，对于工程师来说，他可能会查看代码并说，好吧，我们想要改进它。
I need to do understand work to understand do we need to refactor this code and how scalable is it and what do we need to do to make sure that we can execute fast and make sure that we're not going to have a lot of start and stop?
我需要做一些理解工作，以了解我们是否需要重构此代码以及它的可扩展性如何，以及我们需要做什么来确保我们可以快速执行并确保我们不会有太多的启动和停止？
That could be understand work.
这可能就是理解工作。
It could be actually instrumenting the data and making sure that we actually have full visibility into what's going on.
它实际上可以对数据进行检测，并确保我们实际上能够完全了解正在发生的事情。
Data science, like we work a lot with data science doing activation metrics and understanding proxy metrics.
数据科学，就像我们在数据科学方面做了很多工作一样，做激活指标和理解代理指标。
Right.
正确的。
That's understand work because it helps us to figure out what we need to build and where to focus.
这就是理解工作，因为它可以帮助我们弄清楚我们需要构建什么以及重点关注哪里。
Bangaly Kaba: For product management, sometimes understand work is figuring out the partnership strategy ahead of actually launching the product because you need to go figure out how the pieces are going to come together.
Bangaly Kaba：对于产品管理，有时理解工作是在实际推出产品之前确定合作伙伴策略，因为您需要弄清楚各个部分如何组合在一起。
Right.
正确的。
And so it really just depends on what the function is.
所以这实际上只取决于功能是什么。
But when I say it should be coming from the bottoms up, what I mean is I encourage the team when we plan a sprint or plan a roadmap, to ask a question to identify the key themes that they need to work on.
但当我说它应该是自下而上时，我的意思是我鼓励团队在计划冲刺或计划路线图时提出问题来确定他们需要研究的关键主题。
And when they ask a question on a key theme, also ask what else do we need to understand to make this happen?
当他们就一个关键主题提出问题时，还要问我们还需要了解什么才能实现这一目标？
And in that planning session, to make sure that you are including cross-functional partners.
在该规划会议中，确保您包括跨职能合作伙伴。
So it's not just product design and data science and Inge, you also include go to market, you also include marketing because if you're not inclusive, then you don't really understand what the issues are.
因此，这不仅仅是产品设计、数据科学和 Inge，还包括进入市场、营销，因为如果你不具有包容性，那么你就不会真正理解问题是什么。
Lenny Rachitsky: My PM brain is afraid of creating too much understand work and nothing getting done.
Lenny Rachitsky：我的 PM 大脑担心创建太多理解工作却一事无成。
How do you find that balance of we're going to be understanding for hours and days and weeks and months and not shipping much?
您如何找到我们需要数小时、数天、数周、数月的理解和不发货太多之间的平衡？
How do you do some,-
你如何做一些，-
Bangaly Kaba: I tell them, you have to ship.
Bangaly Kaba：我告诉他们，你必须发货。
I mean, you always have to ship, right?
我的意思是，你总是必须发货，对吗？
Sometimes I give them, sometimes it's helpful, especially early on because it takes a while for people to get their head around why this is so critical.
有时我会给他们，有时这是有帮助的，尤其是在早期，因为人们需要一段时间才能理解为什么这如此重要。
I say, we should choose, sometimes I'll give them guidance.
我说，我们应该选择，有时我会给他们指导。
We should choose three to four understand projects that are going to really help this roadmap and figure out what they are.
我们应该选择三到四个理解项目，这些项目将真正帮助这个路线图并弄清楚它们是什么。
Right.
正确的。
So choose your top three or four and then let's talk about it.
因此，请选择您的前三名或前四名，然后我们来讨论。
And I'll give them guidance.
我会给他们指导。
Or I would say figure out...
或者我会说弄清楚...
There should always be some execution.
总应该有一些执行力。
So initially you're looking for low effort, high impact things to execute against.
因此，最初您会寻找低工作量、高影响力的事情来执行。
Right.
正确的。
Bangaly Kaba: And so build a portfolio of work to do every sprint or every roadmap, some of which should be low effort, high impact, some of which should be medium effort, high impact.
Bangaly Kaba：因此，建立一个工作组合来完成每个冲刺或每个路线图，其中一些应该是低努力，高影响，其中一些应该是中等努力，高影响。
And sometimes understand work actually looks like doing a cheap test, doing a test that's going to help us to learn as fast as possible that we think is a good enough experience that can inform us.
有时，理解工作实际上看起来就像做一个廉价的测试，做一个测试将帮助我们尽可能快地学习，我们认为这是一个足够好的经验，可以为我们提供信息。
Right.
正确的。
And so identifying ways to do that.
因此找出实现这一目标的方法。
And so it's really about just managing expectations and helping people to be clear that the goal is to ship the product, but you want to ship the things that you have more confidence and understanding versus not.
因此，这实际上只是管理期望并帮助人们明确目标是交付产品，但你希望交付你更有信心和理解的东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: So I think a big takeaway here is if you want to have more impact, move faster, try to spend a little more time understanding the problems you're going after in the opportunity space.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以我认为这里的一个重要要点是，如果你想产生更大的影响，行动更快，尝试花更多的时间来理解你在机会空间中要解决的问题。
Bangaly Kaba: That's right.
Bangaly Kaba：没错。
Right.
正确的。
I'll give you a very tactical example is when I joined Instagram in January 2016, believe it or not, the onboarding, the sign-up flow at Instagram had literally no logging to it.
我会给你一个非常战术性的例子，当我在 2016 年 1 月加入 Instagram 时，不管你信不信，Instagram 的入职、注册流程实际上没有任何日志记录。
It had logging of how many people started and how many people ended.
它记录了有多少人开始和有多少人结束。
Right.
正确的。
And I joined in January and it was like we had to write a roadmap.
我在一月份加入，就像我们必须写一个路线图一样。
And so the roadmap looked like this.
所以路线图看起来像这样。
Okay, we know this amount at the top of the funnel and this amount at the bottom end of the funnel.
好的，我们知道漏斗顶部的数量和漏斗底端的数量。
And there was eight steps in the funnel and we don't know what is going on.
漏斗中有八个步骤，我们不知道发生了什么。
Right.
正确的。
So the first bit of understand work was we needed to do the instrumentation of that funnel as fast as possible to get the data to figure out where the drops were happening and what to fix.
因此，第一个理解工作是我们需要尽快对该漏斗进行检测，以获取数据来找出发生下降的位置以及需要修复的内容。
But because we knew of what was happening at the top of the funnel and the bottom of the funnel, we can go and play around with the experience and see what was broken.
但因为我们知道漏斗顶部和底部发生了什么，所以我们可以去尝试一下经验，看看有什么问题。
Bangaly Kaba: So we ran a bunch of tests of stuff that was obviously broken to see what would improve.
Bangaly Kaba：所以我们对明显损坏的东西进行了一系列测试，看看有什么可以改进的地方。
Right.
正确的。
And so it was like a mix.
所以这就像一个混合体。
And so what we did was we set up time where we did, the beginning of like the first couple of weeks, add the logging, ship it to code, re-evaluate in the middle of the quarter, look at the full funnel and then add more things that we can do later on once we got that.
因此，我们所做的就是在我们所做的地方设置时间，就像前几周的开始一样，添加日志记录，将其发送到代码，在季度中期重新评估，查看完整的漏斗，然后添加更多我们稍后可以做的事情。
But in order to get that done, that involved understand work with growth marketing to figure out what was the schemas for the instrumentation, right, the engineering to actually do that logging.
但为了完成这一任务，需要了解与增长营销的合作，以弄清楚仪器的模式是什么，正确的，实际进行日志记录的工程。
Right.
正确的。
Data science to like pull together funnels and dashboard it, all of that had to come together all at one time.
数据科学就像将漏斗整合在一起并用仪表板进行展示，所有这些都必须同时整合在一起。
Lenny Rachitsky: I really like just this concept of calling it understand work.
Lenny Rachitsky：我真的很喜欢“理解工作”这个概念。
I think that alone is a powerful tool because we're going to spend more time on understand work.
我认为这本身就是一个强大的工具，因为我们将花更多的时间来理解工作。
Bangaly Kaba: It feels like it gives meaning to stuff that otherwise people would brush aside.
Bangaly Kaba：感觉它赋予了人们会忽视的东西以意义。
Lenny Rachitsky: Right.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：对。
Where it's just like, no, no, let's just ship stuff.
就像，不，不，我们只是运送东西。
Let's just try stuff.
让我们尝试一下吧。
Let's just test the step.
我们来测试一下这个步骤。
We'll see what happens.
我们会看看会发生什么。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there anything else you have seen and often do to help a team you join move faster and grow bigger?
Lenny Rachitsky：您还见过或经常做其他什么事情来帮助您加入的团队更快地发展、壮大吗？
And I've heard that you've had a lot of impact on a lot of different cultures, so I'm curious if there's anything else that is really effective.
我听说你对许多不同的文化产生了很大的影响，所以我很好奇是否还有其他真正有效的方法。
Bangaly Kaba: I've found myself in a bunch of interesting situations where I had to come in and help improve cultures or change cultures around teams.
Bangaly Kaba：我发现自己遇到了很多有趣的情况，我必须介入并帮助改善团队文化或改变团队文化。
I found this framework, I don't even actually remember where I got it from, but it travels from computer to computer with me and team to team, and it's called managing complex change.
我发现了这个框架，我什至不记得我从哪里得到它，但它与我和团队一起从一台计算机传到另一台计算机，这就是所谓的管理复杂变更。
I actually think I got it from business school or something.
我实际上认为我是从商学院或其他什么地方学到的。
And it's really interesting.
这真的很有趣。
It's got these five components to it.
它有这五个组成部分。
There's vision, skills, incentives, resources, action plan, and you need all of those to have change.
有愿景、技能、激励措施、资源、行动计划，你需要所有这些才能做出改变。
Right.
正确的。
Team needs to have vision, they need to have the skills, they need to have the right incentives.
团队需要有远见，需要有技能，需要有正确的激励。
Sometimes some teams are incentivized to do some things versus others.
有时，一些团队会受到激励去做一些与其他团队不同的事情。
You need to have the right resources in the right places and you need to have a clear action plan.
您需要在正确的地方拥有正确的资源，并且需要有一个明确的行动计划。
And what I love about this framework is if you can visualize it and maybe you can share it with your podcast.
我喜欢这个框架的一点是，如果你可以将它可视化，也许你可以在你的播客中分享它。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
We'll put it up on the screen on YouTube so folks can see what you're talking about.
我们会将其发布在 YouTube 的屏幕上，以便人们可以看到您在谈论的内容。
Bangaly Kaba: Basically what it does is it shows where if you're missing any one component, you get different outcomes.
Bangaly Kaba：基本上，它的作用是显示如果您缺少任何一个组件，您会得到不同的结果。
Right.
正确的。
So if you're missing the vision component, you end up in a state of confusion or if you're missing the incentives, you end up in a state of resistance because people aren't incentivized to do the right work.
因此，如果你缺少愿景，你最终会陷入混乱，或者如果你缺少激励，你最终会陷入抵制状态，因为人们没有动力去做正确的工作。
Or if you're missing an action plan, you end up in a state of false starts.
或者，如果您缺少行动计划，您最终会陷入错误的开始状态。
So I use this, and I think about this a lot actually, because when you come in as a leader, as someone who's supposed to influence change, you have to really observe what's happening and figure out what are the challenges anecdotally and what are you observing?
所以我使用这个，实际上我思考了很多，因为当你作为一个领导者，作为一个应该影响变革的人进来时，你必须真正观察正在发生的事情，并找出传闻中的挑战是什么以及你观察到的是什么？
And then I figure out where I can plug in and what I can do to make the teams better.
然后我会弄清楚我可以在哪里加入以及我可以做些什么来让团队变得更好。
And what I tend to find is moving from the right side to the left side of this, like action plans are easier to institute.
我倾向于发现从右侧转向左侧，就像行动计划更容易制定一样。
Right.
正确的。
Bangaly Kaba: So if I see a team that's struggling to execute, I wonder do they have the right type of PRD framework or are they communicating well?
Bangaly Kaba：因此，如果我看到一个团队在执行上遇到困难，我想知道他们是否拥有正确类型的 PRD 框架，或者他们是否沟通良好？
Do they have the right type of team meeting structures?
他们是否拥有正确类型的团队会议结构？
Those are kind of lower hanging fruit.
这些都是唾手可得的成果。
It's a lot harder to change vision and skills.
改变愿景和技能要困难得多。
It will come in time.
它会及时到来的。
But what I also have done over the course of my career is I've built this deck that comes with me of different skills that matter.
但在我的职业生涯中，我还制作了这套牌，它让我拥有了不同的重要技能。
Right.
正确的。
What are different skills, what are different frameworks, how do we think about it, to help level teams fast?
什么是不同的技能，什么是不同的框架，我们如何思考它，以帮助团队快速升级？
Right.
正确的。
Because I find that sometimes you walk in and not everyone is grounded in the same mental models or concepts.
因为我发现有时当你走进去时，并不是每个人都基于相同的心理模型或概念。
Bangaly Kaba: One example of this I talk about a lot is Instagram.
Bangaly Kaba：我经常谈论的一个例子是 Instagram。
Instagram had just this fantastic culture of thinking about how do we ship high, high quality product, right, and what does product craft mean?
Instagram 有着一种奇妙的文化，思考我们如何交付高品质的产品，对吧，产品工艺意味着什么？
And so that is something that I came to YouTube and my teams particularly, they didn't have a mental model for product craft.
这就是我加入 YouTube 和我的团队的原因，特别是他们没有产品工艺的心智模型。
So I found myself talking into an echo chamber in some way.
所以我发现自己在某种程度上对着回音室说话。
So I had to build a deck that showed, okay, here's how I think about product craft.
所以我必须建立一个展示，好吧，这就是我对产品工艺的看法。
Here's a framework for it.
这是一个框架。
Here's how I think about all of these different things.
以下是我对所有这些不同事物的看法。
And so now we have a shared language, shared communication for, and a repository of skills that we're going to build.
现在我们有了共同的语言、共同的沟通方式以及我们将要建立的技能库。
Lenny Rachitsky: So I'm looking at this image that we'll have up.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以我正在看我们将要展示的这张图片。
So in this case, their skills weren't necessarily there, which in this framework leads to anxiety.
所以在这种情况下，他们的技能不一定存在，这在这个框架中会导致焦虑。
And so what I'm hearing, essentially you come into a team, you're like, what am I feeling?
所以我听到的，本质上你进入一个团队，你会想，我感觉如何？
Is it confusion, frustration, the wrong thing?
是困惑、沮丧还是错误的事情？
And that kind of tells you which of these buckets to spend time on.
这会告诉你该花时间在这些桶中的哪一个上。
Bangaly Kaba: That's right.
Bangaly Kaba：没错。
And then within those buckets, you've got to figure out what are the right levers that you need to pull?
然后，在这些桶中，您必须找出需要拉动的正确杠杆是什么？
What are the things that are missing?
缺少哪些东西？
How do you really focus and where do you kind of spend your time?
你如何真正集中注意力以及你把时间花在哪里？
Lenny Rachitsky: So interesting.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太有趣了。
I love that this image is just like this very grainy,-
我喜欢这张图像，就像这样非常有颗粒感，-
Lenny Rachitsky: Screenshot from some old McKinsey deck or something.
Lenny Rachitsky：来自一些旧的麦肯锡甲板或其他东西的屏幕截图。
Bangaly Kaba: Yeah.
班加利·卡巴：是的。
It's from like 2006 PC or something.
它来自 2006 年的 PC 之类的。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢它。
So you have this thing, you have this deck.
所以你有这个东西，你有这个套牌。
You just come in with all these tools in your tool belt.
您只需带着工具带中的所有这些工具进来即可。
Is there anything else in that list of things that you bring with you to help change culture and help teams,-
您随身携带的物品清单中是否还有其他东西可以帮助改变文化并帮助团队，-
Bangaly Kaba: Yeah.
班加利·卡巴：是的。
I think one thing I think about a bunch is I come from, my background's a little bit different than a traditional tech executive.
我认为我想到的一件事是我来自，我的背景与传统的技术高管有点不同。
There was actually three phases to my career.
我的职业生涯实际上分为三个阶段。
I was in education for six years, taught in inner city DC and then was a dean of a boarding school in Switzerland, which is a little bit of a plot twist.
我从事了六年的教育工作，在华盛顿特区内城区任教，然后担任瑞士一所寄宿学校的院长，这有点情节扭曲。
Bangaly Kaba: I went to business school and I worked on Wall Street for a bit, and then I left my job on Wall Street, quit and started a startup.
Bangaly Kaba：我去了商学院，在华尔街工作了一段时间，然后我辞去了华尔街的工作，辞职并创办了一家初创公司。
Startup was a glorious failure as many startups are, but it was like a very non-traditional path towards tech.
与许多初创公司一样，初创公司是一次光荣的失败，但这就像一条非常非传统的科技之路。
And I think a lot of my time in these other industries actually shapes the way I think about products and product management and actually changing teams and building teams.
我认为我在这些其他行业的很多时间实际上塑造了我对产品和产品管理的思考方式，以及实际上改变团队和建立团队的方式。
And what I mean by that is I think there's a lot of similarities between education and product management believe it or not.
我的意思是，无论你信不信，我认为教育和产品管理之间有很多相似之处。
Bangaly Kaba: When I was interviewing for my first set of jobs in tech, recruiters would say to me, "How does your background relate?
Bangaly Kaba：当我面试第一套科技工作时，招聘人员会对我说：“你的背景如何？
I don't really see it." And I would tell them, "When I was in education, I would walk into a classroom of 24, seven-year olds, and these kids owed me nothing.
我真的没看到。”我会告诉他们，“当我从事教育工作时，我走进一间有 24 岁、7 岁孩子的教室，这些孩子不欠我任何东西。
And the only way I could be successful or impactful is I needed to be able to be a strong communicator.
我能够成功或具有影响力的唯一方法是我需要能够成为一名强大的沟通者。
I needed to be able to have a clear vision of what was going on.
我需要能够清楚地了解正在发生的事情。
I needed to be able to influence them in a believable way such that they would get on board with what needed to be done for 270 days of the year." It's like when you walk into a room as a product manager, engineers, designers, researchers go to market.
我需要能够以可信的方式影响他们，以便他们能够参与一年中 270 天需要完成的工作。”这就像当你走进一个房间时，产品经理、工程师、设计师、研究人员正在走向市场。
Nobody owes you anything.
没有人欠你任何东西。
And the only thing that you're going to do in order to be successful is you need to be a strong communicator.
为了获得成功，你唯一要做的就是成为一名强大的沟通者。
You have a clear vision of what's going on and you need to be able to influence them to do the things together of what matters, right?
您对正在发生的事情有清晰的认识，并且您需要能够影响他们一起做重要的事情，对吗？
It's very similar skillset, just different domain expertise.
它们的技能非常相似，只是领域专业知识不同。
Bangaly Kaba: And so because of that, right, I've really adopted a mindset of how do I coach my teams?
Bangaly Kaba：正因为如此，我真的采取了一种如何指导我的团队的心态？
How do I enable them?
我如何启用它们？
Because it's really about the sum of the parts versus me being a top down leader saying, you have to do this and you have to do that.
因为这实际上是各个部分的总和，而不是我作为一个自上而下的领导者说，你必须这样做，你必须这样做。
And so I think a lot about that in both approach and the processes that we create.
因此，我在我们创建的方法和流程中对此进行了很多思考。
And to give you a couple of classic typical examples of this, there's two things I want to call out.
为了给大家提供几个经典的典型例子，我想指出两件事。
One is there's this, actually this education framework, it's called Bloom's Taxonomy.
一个是这个，实际上是这个教育框架，它被称为布鲁姆分类法。
I think it's changed over time, but when I learned it, it was basically a pyramid and the pyramid was, Bloom Taxonomy describes what's the different levels or order of critical thinking you need in order to be a master of something?
我认为它随着时间的推移而改变，但当我学习它时，它基本上是一个金字塔，金字塔是，布鲁姆分类法描述了要成为某事物的大师，你需要什么不同的批判性思维水平或顺序？
And at the bottom of the pyramid was knowledge, and then it's comprehension, and then application, analysis, synthesis, and evaluation.
金字塔的最底层是知识，然后是理解，然后是应用、分析、综合、评价。
Right.
正确的。
Bangaly Kaba: And so going up the pyramid, it means it's higher order thinking.
Bangaly Kaba：所以沿着金字塔往上走，意味着它是更高阶的思维。
And I think about that a lot and trying to understand where are my teams struggling?
我经常思考这个问题，并试图了解我的团队在哪里苦苦挣扎？
Do they have the core knowledge that they need?
他们是否拥有所需的核心知识？
Do they understand it but they can't apply it or they apply it, but they're not able to analyze it across different business segments?
他们是否理解但无法应用，或者应用但无法跨不同业务部门进行分析？
Right.
正确的。
And you can use this framework not only with the ICPMs and the teams themselves, but also for your managers, like what is breaking down?
您不仅可以将这个框架用于 ICPM 和团队本身，还可以用于您的经理，例如发生了什么故障？
And in using that and attaching that to the skills that we want to build to figure out how do you fill in those gaps?
在使用它并将其附加到我们想要培养的技能中，以找出如何填补这些空白？
Right.
正确的。
And it really is a grounding for me, a grounding mental model for how do you build teams that are actually affect them?
这对我来说确实是一个基础，一个关于如何建立真正影响他们的团队的基础心理模型？
How do you meet people where they are as opposed to just saying, hey, you need to figure this out?
你如何与人们见面，而不是只是说，嘿，你需要弄清楚这一点？
Right.
正确的。
I find that too often in tech and also in product, people are ask to figure things out but not given the support to get there, and there's no way to really connect the dots for them.
我发现，在技术和产品中，人们经常被要求解决问题，但没有得到实现这一目标的支持，而且没有办法真正为他们连接点。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
I'm pulling up the Bloom's Taxonomy.
我正在提取布鲁姆分类法。
So essentially if you see a PM struggling, which you try to do is figure out which of these things do they not have?
因此，本质上，如果你看到一位产品经理陷入困境，你要做的就是找出他们没有哪些东西？
How are you not supporting them?
你怎么不支持他们呢？
How can you support them better?
你怎样才能更好地支持他们？
So it could be they don't have the skills, they don't have the understanding.
所以可能是他们没有技能，他们没有理解力。
What are some of the other things that often you find that maybe hinder a product manager's success?
您经常发现哪些其他因素可能会阻碍产品经理的成功？
Bangaly Kaba: A lot of times they might have the understanding, but they haven't had a chance to apply it to a variety of different scenarios or haven't seen it applied to multiple scenarios.
Bangaly Kaba：很多时候他们可能有所了解，但他们没有机会将其应用到各种不同的场景中，或者还没有看到它应用于多种场景。
Right.
正确的。
So oftentimes you might understand a concept like machine learning, but you haven't actually worked on it in against multiple scenarios.
很多时候，你可能理解了机器学习这样的概念，但你并没有真正针对多种场景进行过研究。
So you maybe have one way of doing it that doesn't make sense and you need to have two or three, and you don't even know that two or three ways of doing it exists.
因此，您可能有一种没有意义的方法，而您需要两种或三种方法，而您甚至不知道存在两种或三种方法。
Right.
正确的。
That is often a common failure point.
这通常是一个常见的故障点。
Right.
正确的。
Or it's maybe you know how to apply it, but you can't synthesize why this thing that you're doing actually matters for the business context.
或者也许您知道如何应用它，但您无法综合为什么您正在做的事情实际上对业务环境很重要。
Right.
正确的。
Oftentimes that becomes a challenge with managers.
这常常成为管理者面临的挑战。
It's like they know what to do, but they don't understand how to tie it back to the business context and the overall strategy needs and so where to prioritize.
就好像他们知道要做什么，但他们不明白如何将其与业务环境和整体战略需求联系起来，也不知道优先考虑的事项。
Right.
正确的。
Bangaly Kaba: And so what I find is that when you're trying to manage managers, you're really trying to live at the top of the pyramid.
Bangaly Kaba：所以我发现，当你试图管理管理者时，你实际上是在努力生活在金字塔的顶端。
You are responsible, managers responsible for basically owning that pyramid for all of the areas that they operate, but they need to be able to live at the top of the pyramid across all of them.
你是负责的，管理者负责基本上拥有他们经营的所有领域的金字塔，但他们需要能够生活在所有领域的金字塔的顶部。
They need to be able to synthesize and evaluate what's happening for each product team that they own in order to kind of make the bigger picture connections.
他们需要能够综合和评估他们拥有的每个产品团队正在发生的事情，以便建立更大的联系。
Lenny Rachitsky: By the way, I loved your metaphor of product manager, like this group of seven-year-olds where you have to learn how to manage, influence, communicate.
Lenny Rachitsky：顺便说一句，我喜欢你对产品经理的比喻，就像这群七岁的孩子一样，你必须学习如何管理、影响、沟通。
Bangaly Kaba: Yeah.
班加利·卡巴：是的。
I mean, they're not like a group of seven-year-olds,-
我的意思是，他们不像一群七岁孩子，-
Bangaly Kaba: But I think it's actually, it's,-
Bangaly Kaba：但我认为实际上，它是-
Bangaly Kaba: I mean, I think it's true.
Bangaly Kaba：我的意思是，我认为这是真的。
I found it actually significantly harder for me to get 24 seven-year-olds to believe in what I was doing then to walk into a room with Kevin Systrom and Mike Krieger and explain to them what's the strategy for growing the next 100 million users on Instagram?
我发现，让 24 个 7 岁的孩子相信我在做的事情，然后与 Kevin Systrom 和 Mike Krieger 一起走进一个房间，向他们解释在 Instagram 上发展下一个 1 亿用户的策略是什么，实际上要困难得多？
These are very logical adults who can reason with you, and you got a classroom of kids.
这些都是非常有逻辑的成年人，他们可以和你讲道理，你的教室里都是孩子。
It's not quite the same.
这并不完全相同。
So those skills are really critical.
所以这些技能非常关键。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
I definitely want to ask about your Instagram days.
我确实想问一下你在 Instagram 上的日子。
Is there anything else in this bucket of wisdom of, you kind of talked about things you've learned about how to manage product managers and managers of managers.
在这桶智慧中还有其他什么吗，你谈到了你学到的关于如何管理产品经理和经理的经理的事情。
Is there anything else there that might be helpful to folks that you've learned?
还有其他什么可能对您所学到的人有帮助的吗？
Bangaly Kaba: One thing that I also think about a lot, and I don't know if this is just a me thing, but I think about PM as a team sport.
Bangaly Kaba：有一件事我也思考了很多，我不知道这是否只是我个人的事情，但我认为 PM 作为一项团队运动。
Right.
正确的。
Leading product teams is really about...
领导产品团队实际上是……
Bangaly Kaba: Leading product teams is really about being the coach and helping other people to see what their role is on the team and to maximize them.
Bangaly Kaba：领导产品团队实际上就是充当教练，帮助其他人了解他们在团队中的角色并最大限度地发挥他们的作用。
People talk a lot about product as you're the CEO, and I don't actually fully believe that analogy.
当你是首席执行官时，人们会谈论很多产品，但我实际上并不完全相信这个类比。
If you think about it as a team sport, there's a few things that shake out.
如果你将其视为一项团队运动，就会发现一些事情会发生变化。
One is not everyone's going to be a star player.
一是不是每个人都会成为明星球员。
But not everyone needs to be a LeBron James or Kobe Bryant.
但并不是每个人都需要成为勒布朗·詹姆斯或科比·布莱恩特。
You need role players.
你需要角色扮演者。
You need really strong role players.
你需要非常强大的角色扮演者。
You need people who feel valued in their role, and you need to understand how to groom those role players and how to make sure that they have the right seat at the table and the right place.
你需要那些感觉自己的角色受到重视的人，你需要了解如何培养这些角色扮演者，以及如何确保他们在谈判桌上拥有正确的席位和正确的位置。
So I think it's, yes, you're the conductor of the orchestra, but you're really more than that.
所以我认为，是的，你是乐团的指挥，但你的意义远不止于此。
You're really the coach of the team.
你确实是球队的教练。
Bangaly Kaba: Another thing I think about a lot is I have a good friend who's a college basketball coach, and he taught me about this idea of your coaching tree.
Bangaly Kaba：我经常思考的另一件事是我有一个好朋友，他是一名大学篮球教练，他教了我关于教练树的想法。
This is a really important concept, especially in college basketball.
这是一个非常重要的概念，尤其是在大学篮球中。
You, as a head coach, you take a lot of pride in who are your assistants.
作为一名主教练，你对自己的助理教练感到非常自豪。
Who is your first assistant, second assistant, and third assistant?
你的第一助理、第二助理、第三助理是谁？
And where do they go on to be head coaches?
他们将在哪里担任主教练？
And what legacy do they have because you were able to instill a bit in them?
因为你能够向他们灌输一些东西，所以他们有什么遗产？
The coaching tree of a Mike Mike Krzyzewski, the coaching tree of a John Calipari, these esteemed coaches, not only because of what they've done, but because of the tree that they've built.
迈克·沙舍夫斯基的教练树，约翰·卡利帕里的教练树，这些受人尊敬的教练，不仅因为他们所做的事情，还因为他们建立的教练树。
Bangaly Kaba: And I like to think about this as well, because I think it's really important for product leaders, think about what is their leadership tree.
Bangaly Kaba：我也喜欢考虑这个问题，因为我认为这对于产品领导者来说非常重要，想想他们的领导树是什么。
Who have you helped to build up and help to grow and help to get to their next wall?
你帮助谁建立、成长并帮助他们到达下一堵墙？
And so I think about this a lot.
所以我经常思考这个问题。
I have people who I've worked with who are running growth at Stripe or the CPO at Chief or now running stories at Instagram that were on my team in the earlier days.
我的一些同事曾在 Stripe 负责增长工作，或者在 Chief 担任 CPO，或者现在在 Instagram 负责故事，这些人都是我早期的团队成员。
And their success is my success, and I'm proud for them, and I'm happy for them.
他们的成功就是我的成功，我为他们感到骄傲，为他们感到高兴。
And I think it kind of reinforces this mentality that it's your responsibility to coach people up to greatness.
我认为这强化了这种心态：你有责任指导人们走向伟大。
Lenny Rachitsky: So what I'm hearing is you put a lot of value in your team on them coaching folks, whether they're managers or even ICs is helping them understand that it's important to coach folks on their team and help them develop, that it's part of your job, essentially.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以我听到的是，你在团队中非常重视对员工的指导，无论他们是经理还是 IC 人员，都在帮助他们理解指导团队中的员工并帮助他们发展很重要，这本质上是你工作的一部分。
Bangaly Kaba: That's part of your job.
Bangaly Kaba：这是你工作的一部分。
You are trying to build a repository of skills and repository of knowledge and of team velocity.
您正在尝试建立一个技能库、知识库和团队速度库。
And the only way you can do that is everyone is...
而你能做到这一点的唯一方法就是每个人都是......
So rising tide has to lift all boats.
因此，涨潮必须抬高所有船只。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
And interestingly, that probably teaches you how to do your job better because you're in teaching, you actually learn things a lot better.
有趣的是，这可能会教你如何更好地完成你的工作，因为你在教学，你实际上学得更好。
Bangaly Kaba: That's right.
Bangaly Kaba：没错。
That's right.
这是正确的。
And it forces you to figure out how can you get things off of your plate so that you can go work on bigger things.
它迫使你弄清楚如何才能把事情从你的盘子里卸下来，这样你就可以去做更大的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, and how good does it feel when folks that you used to manage go on to do bigger and better things.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，当你曾经管理的人继续做更大、更好的事情时，感觉有多好。
Lenny Rachitsky: I want to talk a little bit about growth within YouTube.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想谈谈 YouTube 内部的发展。
I heard that you haven't been there for that long, and apparently you've already...
我听说你已经很久没来了，但显然你已经……
Two extra, three extra more, something important within YouTube.
额外两个，额外三个，YouTube 中的重要内容。
I don't know exactly the details, and people are very impressed with the impact you've already had.
我不知道具体细节，但人们对你已经产生的影响印象深刻。
And apparently a lot of the success there and other places is how you think about growth through flywheels.
显然，那里和其他地方的很多成功都在于你如何看待通过飞轮实现增长。
You always look for the flywheel that helps drive growth.
您总是在寻找有助于推动增长的飞轮。
Can you just talk about either at YouTube, ideally YouTube, whatever you can share, because that's pretty impressive, especially for a company that scale that you're making so much impact, or other places, just how you think about flywheels and growth.
您能否在 YouTube（最好是 YouTube）上谈谈您可以分享的任何内容，因为这令人印象深刻，特别是对于一家规模如此之大、影响力如此之大的公司，或者在其他地方，您如何看待飞轮和增长。
Bangaly Kaba: Well, it's very generous of you.
Bangaly Kaba：嗯，你真是太慷慨了。
I wouldn't say, look, we've done some really good work, some good work so far at YouTube, and it's been a journey.
我不会说，看，我们已经做了一些非常好的工作，到目前为止在 YouTube 上做了一些很好的工作，这是一个旅程。
I do think a lot about flywheels.
我确实对飞轮思考了很多。
I think it's actually a lot of growth is really understanding what is the value profit, all of the different points of the experience, especially if you have a multi-sided marketplace.
我认为，真正的增长在于真正理解什么是价值利润、所有不同的体验点，特别是如果你有一个多边市场。
A multi-sided marketplace for YouTube is like the creator and what the creator is trying to achieve both from an engagement perspective, but also for me for a monetization perspective.
YouTube 的多边市场就像创作者一样，创作者想要实现的目标既是从参与角度来看，也是从盈利角度来看。
And then for the viewer or the purchaser, where is their hat?
那么对于观众或购买者来说，他们的帽子在哪里？
What are they trying to do, and where are they missing the opportunity?
他们想做什么？他们在哪里错过了机会？
Bangaly Kaba: I can't really go into specifics a bunch with YouTube, but what I would say is this is that one thing that I always do when I come in is I try to push my teams to really dog food products in their adjacent user state, if you will.
Bangaly Kaba：我无法详细介绍 YouTube 的细节，但我想说的是，我进来时总是做的一件事是，如果你愿意的话，我会尝试推动我的团队在其相邻的用户状态中提供真正的狗粮产品。
And what I mean by that is often, a product that you and I use that we've been using for years isn't actually the product that we're building for other people.
我的意思是，你我使用多年的产品实际上并不是我们为其他人构建的产品。
Like a power user who's using a product has...
就像使用产品的高级用户一样......
There's so much history and there's so much informed knowledge on how that product...
关于该产品有如此多的历史和丰富的知识......
for that product to actually create a great experience for you that if you were to go and create a new Gmail account and look at YouTube today, I guarantee you it's a completely different and significantly worse experience.
为了让该产品真正为您创造出色的体验，如果您今天去创建一个新的 Gmail 帐户并观看 YouTube，我向您保证，这将是一次完全不同且明显更糟糕的体验。
Bangaly Kaba: And there's a lot of obvious opportunities missed, especially with what is the flywheel and why things are working or not working if you don't actually go and use things in a new state.
Bangaly Kaba：并且有很多明显的机会被错过，特别是关于什么是飞轮以及为什么如果你不真正去在新的状态下使用东西的话，东西会起作用或不起作用。
And an example of this when we talk about YouTube is a lot of the YouTube graph for searching stuff is based on what have you watched in the past?
当我们谈论 YouTube 时，这方面的一个例子是，用于搜索内容的 YouTube 图表中的很多内容都是基于您过去观看过的内容？
So if you go and search and you search history, it's going to be about like, well, what have you watched in the past or what have you searched for, and what can we show you that's going to be what we can better predict?
因此，如果你去搜索并搜索历史记录，那么你过去看过什么或搜索过什么，我们可以向你展示什么是我们可以更好预测的？
Bangaly Kaba: But if you don't have a line of search history, then they're not going to do as good of a job.
Bangaly Kaba：但是如果你没有一系列搜索历史记录，那么他们就不会做得那么好。
And so that's not a direct translation for what we were doing.
所以这并不是我们正在做的事情的直接翻译。
But for me, I work on freedom monetization, and there are really important flywheels around what does it take for a creator to make content that can help them to monetize?
但对我来说，我致力于自由货币化，创作者如何制作可以帮助他们货币化的内容，确实存在非常重要的飞轮？
How do we get that content to people and where to what extent are we getting that content to people, and how do we make sure that people feel good about what they're receiving, the people who are paying.
我们如何向人们提供这些内容，我们在多大程度上向人们提供这些内容，以及我们如何确保人们对他们所收到的内容和付费的人感到满意。
And all of those flywheels have to work.
所有这些飞轮都必须工作。
Bangaly Kaba: And so part of what I've been able to do is really think about how do we connect the dots in a story that the teams can uniquely understand, can help them to lean in even more and have clarity and purpose of work.
Bangaly Kaba：所以我能做的一部分就是真正思考如何将故事中的各个点联系起来，让团队能够独特地理解，可以帮助他们更加深入地了解工作并明确工作目标。
Sometimes, what's super important about the flywheels actually is enabling for your teams to know what to work on and what not to work on.
有时，飞轮最重要的实际上是让您的团队知道该做什么、不该做什么。
And then it also helps us to understand what do we know and what do we not know about creators and viewers and monetization operations so that we can do the understand work to improve the velocity and to prove the impact.
然后，它还可以帮助我们了解关于创作者和观众以及货币化操作我们知道什么和不知道什么，以便我们可以进行理解工作以提高速度并证明影响。
Bangaly Kaba: And that's really where we've been focused.
Bangaly Kaba：这确实是我们一直关注的焦点。
And so I did a lot of this in YouTube, but I also did this in Instacart, really thinking about when I joined Instacart, one of the big questions I had was like, how will people in their daily lives...
所以我在 YouTube 上做了很多这样的事情，但我也在 Instacart 上做了这件事，认真思考当我加入 Instacart 时，我遇到的一个大问题是，人们在日常生活中会如何......
How's their daily life actually reflecting in the purchase experience?
他们的日常生活实际上如何反映在购买体验中？
Are we making it easy for them?
我们是否让他们变得容易？
Because when you buy groceries, you're not going to going grocery shopping because you want beautiful ingredients in your fridge.
因为当您购买杂货时，您不会因为想要冰箱里有漂亮的食材而去杂货店购物。
You're going grocery shopping because you actually have a meal to put together.
你去杂货店购物是因为你实际上有一顿饭要准备。
So are we actually reflecting the real job to be done, which is I want to buy tacos, I want to make Taco Tuesday.
那么，我们实际上是否反映了要完成的真正工作，即我想买炸玉米饼，我想星期二做炸玉米饼。
Can we make it easier for people to find the ingredients for tacos, as opposed to having them sort for tortillas and tomatoes and avocado?
我们能否让人们更容易地找到炸玉米饼的原料，而不是让他们分类玉米饼、西红柿和鳄梨？
And so it's really thinking about what is the job and then what is the flywheel to make that happen, and how do we make this come to life?
因此，我们真正思考的是工作是什么，然后实现这一目标的飞轮是什么，以及我们如何使其成为现实？
Lenny Rachitsky: There's so many things that I want to follow up on here.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想跟进很多事情。
First of all, I realize that all of the things you worked on, I am a daily active user of or weekly active user.
首先，我意识到您所做的所有事情，我都是每日活跃用户或每周活跃用户。
Twitter, YouTube, Instagram, Instacart about weekly active user, I think that might be.
Twitter、YouTube、Instagram、Instacart 关于每周活跃用户，我认为可能是这样。
Yeah.
是的。
Wow, nice job.
哇，干得好。
You got me.
你抓住了我。
You got me in the flywheels of all your flywheels.
你让我进入了你所有飞轮的飞轮中。
Bangaly Kaba: I was not intentional, but I'm glad my efforts had improved joy, just a little bit,
Bangaly Kaba：我不是故意的，但我很高兴我的努力提高了快乐，只是一点点，
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so a couple takeaways here.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，这里有几点要点。
One is you think about the value prop at every interaction of both sides, if it's a multi-sided marketplace or if it's just like, "Why would I be doing this?" So it's like, "Why would I send an invite to my friend?
一是你要考虑双方每次互动的价值支撑，如果这是一个多边市场，或者只是“我为什么要这样做？”就像，“我为什么要向我的朋友发送邀请？
Why would I share this photo?
我为什么要分享这张照片？
Why would I open up Instacart?" And then you think about the jobs to be done during the day of a potential user and how can we flow into that versus not connect to their actual day-to-day experience?
我为什么要打开 Instacart？”然后你会考虑潜在用户白天要完成的工作，以及我们如何才能融入其中而不是与他们实际的日常体验联系起来？
Bangaly Kaba: And is the product actually working?
Bangaly Kaba：该产品真的有效吗？
As I'm doing this, I'm looking and saying, "Is the product actually set up to deliver these things?
当我这样做时，我一边看着一边说：“这个产品真的是为了提供这些东西而设计的吗？
Do we actually see it work or not?" I think there's a lot of assumptions that the product works, but a lot of times teams will surprisingly build the pieces of a flow but not actually build the experience, the output.
我们真的看到它有效吗？”我认为有很多假设表明产品有效，但很多时候团队会令人惊讶地构建流程的各个部分，但实际上并没有构建体验和输出。
They don't design it in a way where you're getting the real output that you need.
他们的设计方式并不是让您获得所需的实际输出。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's such a easy to miss point you're making here, which is you just think about, "Hey, I have Taco Tuesday.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：你在这里提出的观点很容易被忽视，你只要想一想，“嘿，我星期二吃玉米卷。
I'm actually as a product manager on Instacart.
我实际上是 Instacart 的产品经理。
I'm going to open up the app, and use it in this use case and see how it goes."
我将打开该应用程序，并在这个用例中使用它，看看效果如何。”
Lenny Rachitsky: And most people don't do that is what you realized.
Lenny Rachitsky：您意识到，大多数人都不会这样做。
Bangaly Kaba: Most people don't do that.
Bangaly Kaba：大多数人不会这样做。
Another example of this, this was years ago, but at Instacart, Instacart made it really hard to reorder stuff, super hard to reorder.
另一个例子，这是几年前的事了，但在 Instacart，Instacart 使得重新订购东西变得非常困难，非常难以重新订购。
And it was shocking to me, because when I thought about it, when I go to the grocery store, 90% of the time I'm getting the same stuff.
这让我感到震惊，因为当我想到这一点时，当我去杂货店时，90% 的时间我买到的都是同样的东西。
It's like maybe not every trip, but over the course of a month or two, you've got a list of things that are part of your staple, and then occasionally holiday time I went some peppermint bark chocolate or something.
也许不是每次旅行，但在一两个月的时间里，你会得到一份作为你主食一部分的东西的清单，然后偶尔在假期时间我会去一些薄荷树皮巧克力或其他东西。
There's random snacks you're going to throw in, but there's...
你会随意扔一些零食，但是……
And so when we looked at the data, it turns out, after five times when you go to Instacart, 90% of your order was the same.
因此，当我们查看数据时，结果发现，在您访问 Instacart 5 次之后，90% 的订单都是相同的。
But when you wanted to reorder, at least back then, you couldn't go and reorder easily.
但当你想重新订购时，至少在当时，你不能轻易去重新订购。
You had to dig and find it like seven or eight clicks.
您必须点击七八次才能挖掘并找到它。
Bangaly Kaba: And when you did reorder, you had to reorder the whole thing.
Bangaly Kaba：当你重新订购时，你必须重新订购整个东西。
You couldn't take pieces, you couldn't take, I want to take the milk and the blueberries.
你不能拿走碎片，你不能拿走，我想拿走牛奶和蓝莓。
And so you think about growth, you think about what does it mean to grow an Instacart?
所以你会考虑增长，你会考虑发展 Instacart 意味着什么？
What does it mean to actually drive better retention?
真正推动更好的保留意味着什么？
Well, it's actually really important to make it easy for people to make the next order.
嗯，让人们轻松下订单实际上非常重要。
And so the product wasn't really built for that, though people have the best intentions in mind.
因此，尽管人们的初衷是好的，但该产品并不是真正为此而设计的。
Lenny Rachitsky: I imagine that was maybe one of the biggest growth wins in Instacart history is just the reorder the same thing, because I do that all the time.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想这可能是 Instacart 历史上最大的增长胜利之一，就是对同样的事情进行重新排序，因为我一直这样做。
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Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Vanta 为您带来。
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现在，您可以使用单一平台 Vanta 评估风险、确保客户的信任并自动实现 SOC 2、ISO 27001、HIPAA 等的合规性。
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Vanta 市场领先的信任管理平台可帮助您持续监控合规性以及报告和跟踪风险。
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访问vanta.com/lenny，可享受 Vanta 立减 1,000 美元的优惠。
That's V-A-N-T-A dot com slash Lenny.
那是 V-A-N-T-A . com 斜杠莱尼。
Lenny Rachitsky: You mentioned this concept of adjacent user kind of adjacently, but I think it's worth spending a little more time here.
Lenny Rachitsky：您提到了相邻用户的概念，但我认为值得在这里多花一点时间。
It's like this term you popularized and you explained it somewhat, but maybe explain a little bit more.
就像你普及了这个术语并且你对它做了一些解释，但也许解释得更多一些。
I think it's really powerful for people and how do you think about growth.
我认为这对人们来说真的很强大，以及你如何看待增长。
Bangaly Kaba: This was something that came out of actually my time at Instagram.
Bangaly Kaba：这是我在 Instagram 工作期间产生的想法。
It was a framework that we came up with because Instagram really was, at that time, we grew so fast that the people who were using Instagram in February were completely different than people who were using it the following October and then the next January.
这是我们提出的一个框架，因为当时 Instagram 确实发展得很快，二月份使用 Instagram 的人与第二年 10 月和第二年 1 月使用它的人完全不同。
I think when I joined, we were at like 440 million monthly actives.
我想当我加入时，我们的月活跃用户数约为 4.4 亿。
January 2016, at the end of that year we were at 636 million, grew like 47% that year.
2016 年 1 月，当年年底我们的用户数量达到 6.36 亿，当年增长了 47%。
And so when we talk to users, first half of 2016, when we talk to women in the US in their 30, they're like, "Why would I have an Instagram?
因此，当我们与 2016 年上半年的用户交谈时，当我们与 30 岁的美国女性交谈时，她们会说，“我为什么要有 Instagram？
I have a Facebook account." Literally people said that, it was that long ago.
我有一个 Facebook 帐户。”人们确实这么说，那是很久以前的事了。
And then a year later it's like, "Of course I use Instagram.
一年后，我会说：“我当然使用 Instagram。
Instagram is my everything." The world changed so fast.
Instagram 就是我的一切。”世界变化太快了。
Bangaly Kaba: And so when you're in a hypergrowth product, it's really, really important to understand who your users are today and the persona of the user, what motivates them, why they're using it, but then also to understand who is the next user?
Bangaly Kaba：因此，当您使用高速增长的产品时，了解您今天的用户是谁以及用户的角色、他们的动机是什么、他们为什么使用它真的非常非常重要，但也要了解谁是下一个用户？
Who is the user who could be using this product, but for some reason it doesn't work for them, and understanding who that adjacent user is and when you are actually starting to see that adjacent user adopt the product.
谁是可以使用该产品的用户，但由于某种原因它对他们不起作用，并了解该相邻用户是谁以及您何时真正开始看到该相邻用户采用该产品。
And one of the ways you start to see the adjacent users starting to adopt the product, especially with the data, is you start seeing cohort curves decline.
你开始看到相邻用户开始采用该产品的方式之一，特别是通过数据，你开始看到队列曲线下降。
You start seeing the people who sign up today, three or six months from now, they're signing up and they're doing a worse job.
你开始看到今天注册的人，三到六个月后，他们注册了，但他们的工作却变得更糟。
Nothing's changing the product, but just the understanding of how the product should work is different.
产品没有发生任何改变，只是对产品如何工作的理解有所不同。
Bangaly Kaba: They might be less tech savvy.
Bangaly Kaba：他们可能不太懂技术。
On a scale of an early adopter versus late majority, they might be closer to the late majority.
从早期采用者与晚期多数的规模来看，他们可能更接近晚期多数。
And so we saw this at Instagram.
我们在 Instagram 上看到了这一点。
We always knew working on our registration flow, and at one point we were converting at some insanely high percent, and then three months later it would go down by 15%, not because anything was broken, but just because we'd broken into new markets.
我们一直都知道如何处理我们的注册流程，有一次我们的转化率达到了惊人的高水平，然后三个月后，它会下降 15%，不是因为任何东西出了问题，而只是因为我们打入了新市场。
You bring on people in India or you bring on people in the Philippines, and their understanding of how it works, the phones they use, et cetera are all different.
你请来印度的人，或者请来菲律宾的人，他们对它的工作原理的理解、他们使用的手机等等都是不同的。
So really, the core of their adjacent news was a few things.
事实上，他们相邻新闻的核心是几件事。
One is like you have to understand who's using your product today and why.
一是你必须了解今天谁在使用你的产品以及为什么。
And when you're growing at some really strong pace, 30, 40, 50% or more per year, you've got to be on top of who you believe the next user is and why.
当您以每年 30%、40%、50% 或更高的速度快速增长时，您必须清楚您认为下一个用户是谁以及原因。
Bangaly Kaba: And then you also have to be the adjacent exactly, use the product like them and see how it's working, what's broken with it.
Bangaly Kaba：然后你还必须准确地相邻，像他们一样使用产品，看看它是如何工作的，有什么问题。
And so at an Instacart, the adjacent user, the original user might've been like an office admin who is going to buy this thing every week because of during happy hours and team staff.
因此，在 Instacart 中，相邻用户、原始用户可能就像办公室管理员一样，每周都会因为欢乐时光和团队工作人员而购买这个东西。
But then the next adjacent user might've been the mom of three or four or the dad of three or four who's home with the kids and they need to depend on Instacart, versus later on it might be they're a single person in New York who does this out of convenience.
但下一个相邻的用户可能是三四个孩子的妈妈，或者是三四个孩子的爸爸，他们在家带孩子，他们需要依赖 Instacart，而后来他们可能是纽约的单身人士，出于方便而这样做。
But what they're optimizing for, how they use the product all changes, and the functionality and the abilities are fundamentally different.
但他们优化的目的、使用产品的方式都发生了变化，而且功能和能力也根本不同。
So you have to be them, you have to watch how they use the product, you have to talk to them, and then have to visit them and literally see what they're doing in real time in order to make sure that you're enabling the right jobs for them.
所以你必须成为他们，你必须观察他们如何使用产品，你必须与他们交谈，然后必须拜访他们并实时了解他们在做什么，以确保你为他们提供合适的工作。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love just the visualization of the adjacent user.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢相邻用户的可视化效果。
Basically your growth is going to come from non-existing users.
基本上你的增长将来自不存在的用户。
It's the users right outside that circle of...
是那个圈子之外的用户......
Lenny Rachitsky: ...
莱尼·拉奇茨基：……
pre-users are today, and you need to think about what do they need that existing users maybe don't need.
今天是前用户，您需要考虑他们需要哪些现有用户可能不需要的东西。
You said that this is most powerful for hypergrowth companies.
你说这对于高速增长的公司来说是最强大的。
Is this something you think people like all companies should be thinking about or is it a lot less important if you're not a hypergrowth business?
您认为这是所有公司都应该考虑的事情吗？还是说，如果您不是一家高速增长的企业，那么这一点就不那么重要了？
Bangaly Kaba: So it's a great question.
Bangaly Kaba：这是一个很好的问题。
I think it's essential.
我认为这是必要的。
It's mandatory for hypergrowth.
这是高速增长所必需的。
I think it's very helpful if you have a product or a company that is not growing what you want it to be.
我认为，如果您的产品或公司没有按照您的预期发展，这将非常有帮助。
And so you are focused on capturing more share of wallet instead of expanding your audience.
因此，您的重点是获得更多的钱包份额，而不是扩大受众群体。
And so sometimes you can imagine a cosmetics company, for example, that's like digitally enabled.
因此，有时您可以想象一家化妆品公司，例如，这家公司就像是数字化的。
You can imagine that they've hit a ceiling in terms of the growth of their users, and they're really just trying to get people to buy more product, but maybe the people who want to use their product are missing something from your current product.
你可以想象他们的用户增长已经达到了上限，他们实际上只是想让人们购买更多的产品，但也许想要使用他们产品的人缺少你当前产品的某些东西。
Maybe you're missing different skin tone shades, or maybe you're missing certain types of tools.
也许您缺少不同的肤色色调，或者您可能缺少某些类型的工具。
So really talking to who is just outside of your current user base, who's coming to your product and looking around and not buying and understanding what are their needs and figuring out how do you enable for them, how do you build the right experience for them in order to become adopters of your product?
因此，真正与那些不属于您当前用户群的人交谈，谁会来到您的产品并环顾四周，而不是购买并了解他们的需求是什么，并弄清楚如何为他们提供支持，如何为他们构建正确的体验，以便成为您产品的采用者？
Lenny Rachitsky: So what I'm hearing is spend some understand work to figure out who your potential users are,
Lenny Rachitsky：所以我听到的是花费一些理解工作来找出你的潜在用户是谁，
Lenny Rachitsky: ...
莱尼·拉奇茨基：……
and then use the product as them and see what is missing.
然后像他们一样使用该产品，看看缺少什么。
I imagine user research goes into this.
我想用户研究会涉及到这一点。
You're not actually going to understand necessarily all the things they need.
你实际上不一定能理解他们需要的所有东西。
So it's probably fine folks in that cohort and see how they use the product.
因此，这可能是该群体中的好人，看看他们如何使用该产品。
Awesome.
惊人的。
Lenny Rachitsky: The question I had on my mind as you're talking, you've come into so many companies and helped them with growth.
Lenny Rachitsky：当你说话时，我脑子里浮现的问题是，你加入了很多公司并帮助他们成长。
Where do you find most of the opportunities often lie?
您发现大多数机会通常在哪里？
Is it like onboarding, activation?
类似于入职、激活吗？
Is there a trend like that you're like, "Here's probably there's going to be opportunity here," or is it super mixed bag?
是否存在这样的趋势，“这里可能会有机会”，或者是超级混合包？
Bangaly Kaba: Usually it's somewhere in the onboarding to habit-building experience.
Bangaly Kaba：通常是在习惯养成过程中的某个阶段。
What does it take for someone to actually understand the value, that first moment, that first aha moment in the product?
人们需要怎样才能真正理解产品的价值，即第一个时刻，第一个顿悟时刻？
And a lot of teams, it's shocking how many teams don't really understand what that moment is for them.
对于很多团队来说，令人震惊的是有多少团队并不真正了解那一刻对他们来说意味着什么。
And then also how do you get them to build habit around the product.
然后还有如何让他们养成围绕产品的习惯。
Oftentimes, a lot of people equate growth to top of funnel, and that is also critical.
很多时候，很多人将增长等同于漏斗顶部，这也很重要。
I think having the right top of funnel motion is really critical and building on that.
我认为拥有漏斗运动的右顶部非常重要，并在此基础上建立。
So I think there's one part of, it's like once you have the right top of funnel motion to get people to come in, how do you help to make sure of the defining value and the building habit and their routine?
所以我认为有一部分，就像一旦你有了漏斗运动的正确顶部来让人们进来，你如何帮助确保定义价值和建立习惯及其日常工作？
Because that's the thing that helps you to compound over time.
因为这可以帮助你随着时间的推移而复合。
If you're bringing a lot of people but they're not staying around, then you just have a leaky bucket and it doesn't matter how big your top funnel is.
如果你带来了很多人，但他们没有留下来，那么你只是一个漏水桶，不管你的顶部漏斗有多大。
So making sure that that first-month and two-month, three-month experience is great.
因此，确保第一个月、两个月、三个月的体验非常棒。
Bangaly Kaba: And then the other part is really figuring out how do you build compounding growth loops where it's not just one way of acquiring people, but you're building two and three and four ways that layer onto each other that help you to really supercharge your engine of acquiring people.
Bangaly Kaba：另一部分是真正弄清楚如何建立复合增长循环，这不仅仅是一种吸引人才的方式，而是建立两种、三种和四种相互叠加的方式，帮助你真正增强吸引人才的引擎。
So at Instagram, if you kind of look at where Instagram is and how I and grew, there's a lot that goes into it, but if you actually unpack the top of funnel for what worked at Instagram, there's certainly a component of it, which was our core component, which was invitations, where people inviting you and making sure that those invitations work and they work well and that people, their friends are coming on, you get notified.
所以在Instagram，如果你看看Instagram在哪里，我是如何成长的，里面有很多东西，但如果你真正打开Instagram的漏斗顶部，肯定有一个组成部分，这是我们的核心组成部分，就是邀请，人们邀请你，并确保这些邀请有效，并且效果良好，并且人们，他们的朋友来了，你会收到通知。
Bangaly Kaba: But another part that goes unspoken, still critical to this day was the celebrity partnerships was critical, because basically they had this wonderful partnerships team that basically took Instagram and taught celebrities how to use it, how to make it work for them, how to tell their own story and be their own brand, and that was a critical growth funnel because with that, you had the ability for them to create these celebrities and celebrity creators to set the norm for how the platform gets used, but they also were getting picked up by the news and the media for all the stuff that's happening in the celebrity world, which then added onto this other growth level, which was SEO.
Bangaly Kaba：但另一个不言而喻的部分，至今仍然至关重要，名人合作伙伴关系至关重要，因为基本上他们有一个出色的合作伙伴团队，基本上采用了 Instagram 并教名人如何使用它，如何让它为他们服务，如何讲述自己的故事并成为自己的品牌，这是一个关键的增长漏斗，因为有了这个，你就有能力让他们创造这些名人和名人创作者，为平台的使用方式设定规范，但他们也被新闻和媒体所关注。对于名人世界中发生的所有事情，然后添加到另一个增长级别，即搜索引擎优化。
Bangaly Kaba: And so every time a news article came out, they would link to the creators or the celebrities Instagram account or that particular post.
Bangaly Kaba：因此每次发布新闻文章时，他们都会链接到创作者或名人的 Instagram 帐户或特定帖子。
And so you have this whole SEO engine that worked.
这样你就拥有了整个 SEO 引擎。
And the SEO engine was because you have both web, which we launched at Instagram, which created the canonical SEO tables, and then you had all of these inbound links from these celebrity sites and news media, but then what you also had is you had embeds for Instagram and all of these different sites, like a news article, whatever, the posts, Lenny's podcast, Instagram account, and those embeds help with SEO juice.
SEO 引擎是因为你同时拥有我们在 Instagram 上推出的网络，它创建了规范的 SEO 表，然后你拥有来自这些名人网站和新闻媒体的所有入站链接，但你还拥有 Instagram 和所有这些不同网站的嵌入内容，例如新闻文章等，帖子、Lenny 的播客、Instagram 帐户，以及这些有助于 SEO 效果的嵌入内容。
Bangaly Kaba: And so you have not just the invites, but now you have the celebrities, now you have the SEO component.
Bangaly Kaba：所以你不仅拥有邀请，而且现在你拥有名人，现在你拥有 SEO 组件。
And then we would do a bunch of paid media on top of that using a lot of those signals.
然后我们会使用大量这些信号来制作一堆付费媒体。
And then we have our own content.
然后我们就有了自己的内容。
And so you would have all of these different growth engines compounding each other.
因此，所有这些不同的增长引擎都会相互复合。
So every time the invitations got better, every time we've got more celebrities, every time SEO gets better, it's like magnifying the top of funnel, and at the bottom of the funnel or mid-funnel, making sure that people are retaining and getting value and staying around over the long term.
因此，每次邀请变得更好，每次我们有更多的名人，每次搜索引擎优化变得更好，这就像放大漏斗的顶部，以及漏斗的底部或漏斗中部，确保人们保留并获得价值并长期留在身边。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is so interesting.
Lenny Rachitsky：这太有趣了。
I had no idea this was such a core part of the early growth strategy.
我不知道这是早期增长战略的核心部分。
Everyone's always talking about reality and word of mouth, all these things.
每个人总是在谈论现实和口碑，所有这些事情。
And you're saying partnerships was a key part of the early growth strategy.
您说合作伙伴关系是早期增长战略的关键部分。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's so funny.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太有趣了。
Never something people talk about in growth, this partnership.
人们从来不谈论成长、这种伙伴关系。
It's always is like, "Oh, there's a couple of companies that really had success from partnerships in BD." How early was this a big part of the strategy?
人们总是会说，“哦，有几家公司确实通过 BD 合作取得了成功。”这是该战略的重要组成部分有多早？
How early in the history of,
历史有多早，
Bangaly Kaba: I mean the partnerships team was there before I joined.
Bangaly Kaba：我的意思是，在我加入之前，合作伙伴团队就已经在那里了。
It was a very savvy and astute thing that Kevin and Mikey set up.
这是凯文和米奇非常精明和精明的做法。
The partnerships team drove a lot of the word of mouth around Instagram, but it was the partnership's work in combination with the product work that actually helped to allow a lot of that to land.
合作伙伴团队在 Instagram 上带来了很多口碑，但实际上是合作伙伴的工作与产品工作相结合，才真正帮助了很多口碑的落地。
It was our ability to think outside the box and understand that we needed to have a web presence because it was critical for international growth and it also helped with SEO.
这是我们跳出框框思考的能力，并了解我们需要拥有网络存在，因为这对于国际增长至关重要，并且也有助于搜索引擎优化。
And so the idea of launching web really drove and actually increased Instagram's growth by 10% the minute we launched it.
因此，推出网络版的想法确实推动了 Instagram 的增长，实际上，在我们推出 Instagram 的那一刻起，它就实现了 10% 的增长。
And it was something that George Wang, who was there before me, had the idea around.
这是乔治·王（George Wang）在我之前提出的想法。
It wasn't really something that Kevin and Mikey believed in initially, but we had to prove to them that it was really impactful and one should launch.
Kevin 和 Mikey 最初并不真正相信这一点，但我们必须向他们证明它确实有影响力并且应该推出。
Bangaly Kaba: Then they understood why it was impactful and all of the effect of it.
Bangaly Kaba：然后他们明白了为什么它有影响力以及它的所有效果。
But web was really critical for driving so much SEO, which helped support a lot of the celebrity work and the partnerships work, because now every time creator or celebrity did something on Instagram, every news media article picked it up and it just helped to drive searches in Google searches, which helped to make Instagram part of the cultural zeitgeist.
但网络对于推动如此多的 SEO 确实至关重要，这有助于支持许多名人的工作和合作伙伴关系的工作，因为现在每次创作者或名人在 Instagram 上做某事时，每一篇新闻媒体文章都会报道它，并且它只是有助于推动 Google 搜索中的搜索，这有助于使 Instagram 成为文化时代精神的一部分。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is so interesting, because everyone imagines Instagram, virality, word of mouth, like SEO and partnerships sounds like a core part of Instagram's early growth, which I don't think anyone ever talks about.
Lenny Rachitsky：这太有趣了，因为每个人都认为 Instagram、病毒式传播、口碑传播、SEO 和合作伙伴关系听起来像是 Instagram 早期发展的核心部分，但我认为没有人谈论过这一点。
Bangaly Kaba: I mean it was part of Facebook's growth too, but I think a little bit differently.
Bangaly Kaba：我的意思是这也是 Facebook 增长的一部分，但我的想法有点不同。
It's not as much partnership, but when you Google someone now, you Google someone's name, oftentimes, Instagram is one of the first five things that comes up for the average person,
这并不是什么合作关系，但是当你现在用谷歌搜索某人时，你用谷歌搜索某人的名字，通常，Instagram 是普通人首先想到的五件事之一，
Lenny Rachitsky: Do you ever see the video of Alex Jiu talking about TikTok's growth strategy of this whole...
Lenny Rachitsky：你看过 Alex Jiu 谈论 TikTok 整个增长战略的视频吗？
He had this metaphor, and he was trying to grow off of Instagram, so his metaphor was Instagram is like you're in Europe and you're killing it.
他有这样的比喻，他试图摆脱 Instagram 的束缚，所以他的比喻是 Instagram 就像你在欧洲，你正在扼杀它。
If you're in Europe and you're king, you don't ever want to go to America.
如果你在欧洲并且你是国王，你就永远不想去美国。
There's no reason for you to give it up.
你没有理由放弃它。
And America is TikTok in this case.
在这种情况下，美国就是 TikTok。
He's like, "How do we convince people to come to America and try moving everything there?" He's like, "We need to go after the people that are not doing well in Europe, who want to be the king, and we're going to help you become that king in America, or the President."
他说，“我们如何说服人们来到美国并尝试将所有东西搬到那里？”他说，“我们需要追捕那些在欧洲表现不佳、想成为国王的人，我们将帮助你成为美国的国王，或者总统。”
Bangaly Kaba: So he used the adjacent...
Bangaly Kaba：所以他使用了相邻的......
Used that theory on us, basically, is what you're saying.
在我们身上使用这个理论，基本上就是你所说的。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's right.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：没错。
He did.
他做到了。
Drink up your shake.
喝完你的奶昔。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
And I think the reason that strategy worked differently is there was already a place, so they couldn't execute what you did because there's already celebrities already there, and it's not like, "Come here." There's no point.
我认为策略效果不同的原因是已经有一个地方了，所以他们无法执行你所做的事情，因为那里已经有名人了，而这并不像“来这里”。没有意义。
I already have a huge following.
我已经拥有了大量的追随者。
Bangaly Kaba: So you make your own celebrities.
Bangaly Kaba：所以你创造了自己的名人。
Lenny Rachitsky: Make your own celebrities.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：打造自己的名人。
Exactly.
确切地。
And they went after the B-list, C-list people.
他们追随二流、三流的人。
So it's interesting that people look at Instagram, like, cool, we're going to do partnerships, SEO.
所以有趣的是，人们看着 Instagram，就像，很酷，我们将进行合作伙伴关系、搜索引擎优化。
But I think it's important to realize things change when the market is a different dynamic.
但我认为，当市场出现不同的动态时，认识到事情会发生变化是很重要的。
You can't just do the same thing.
你不能只做同样的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: It won't work as well.
Lenny Rachitsky：这也不会起作用。
Is there anything else from the Instagram early days that maybe people wouldn't know or would be interesting to share?
Instagram 早期还有哪些人们可能不知道或有兴趣分享的东西吗？
Because you were there quite early, and now it's maybe the most thriving social network in the world.
因为你很早就在那里了，现在它可能是世界上最繁荣的社交网络。
Bangaly Kaba: One thing that's actually, I think, interesting, as an interesting story that doesn't get talked about a lot is I think the early Instagram was built where...
Bangaly Kaba：我认为，实际上有趣的一件事是，作为一个有趣的故事，但没有被太多谈论，我认为早期的 Instagram 是建立在......
it was built in a way where every follow was created equal.
它的构建方式是让每个追随者都是平等的。
And what I mean by that is if I followed you, Lenny, or if I followed Kim Kardashian, I followed Selena Gomez, all follows were treated like they were equally important.
我的意思是，如果我关注了你，莱尼，或者如果我关注了金·卡戴珊，我关注了赛琳娜·戈麦斯，所有关注都被视为同等重要。
And this is actually a really important fact.
这实际上是一个非常重要的事实。
It was a really important factor for a couple of reasons.
由于几个原因，这是一个非常重要的因素。
One, early celebrities who were adopting Instagram obviously benefited from that, because a celebrity is going to get a follow before an average person does.
第一，早期使用 Instagram 的名人显然从中受益，因为名人会比普通人先获得关注。
It doesn't mean that their followers weren't meaningful.
这并不意味着他们的追随者没有意义。
It's just that when you have a machine learning that's just optimized for a click through a follow, then that matters.
只是当你拥有一个针对点击和关注进行优化的机器学习时，那就很重要了。
Bangaly Kaba: But what ended up happening is we ended up looking at the data, and I can't take credit for this.
Bangaly Kaba：但最终发生的事情是我们最终查看了数据，这不能归功于我。
My colleague at the time, Rob Andrews, had identified this.
我当时的同事罗布·安德鲁斯（Rob Andrews）已经发现了这一点。
He was the head of growth marketing.
他是增长营销的主管。
He was a peer of mine that basically, this is 2016-ish days, the average person would come on Instagram and retain, but then leave after 7, 8, 9 months.
他是我的一个同事，基本上，这是 2016 年左右的日子，一般人会在 Instagram 上停留并保留，但在 7、8、9 个月后离开。
We'd see a flattening in a retention curve, but then we would see it dip again, which was very weird.
我们会看到保留曲线变平，但随后我们会看到它再次下降，这非常奇怪。
And we're like, why is this happening?
我们想，为什么会发生这种情况？
And it turned out that what was happening anecdotally is that people were revving up Instagram, following a bunch of people, following a lot of celebrities, actually, because the celebrities were being shown, and then when they actually went to make their first post, a few months later-
事实证明，有趣的是，人们正在加速 Instagram，关注一群人，关注很多名人，实际上，因为名人正在被展示，然后当他们真正去发布他们的第一个帖子时，几个月后 -
Bangaly Kaba: ...
班加利·卡巴：……
being shown.
正在显示。
And then when they actually went to make their first post a few months later, none of their friends were following them.
几个月后，当他们真正发布第一篇帖子时，他们的朋友都没有关注他们。
And so there was posting into an echo chamber and anecdotally people would stop using the product because they felt bad.
因此，有人在回声室中发帖，据说人们会因为感觉不好而停止使用该产品。
We hypothesized that no one was liking or following or commenting on their posts.
我们假设没有人喜欢、关注或评论他们的帖子。
And so we had to do this thing.
所以我们必须做这件事。
We called it the connections pivot, right in like 2016 ...
就在 2016 年，我们将其称为“连接枢纽”……
Actually, 2017, where we had to convince Kevin and Mikey that it was actually not the right thing to do to prioritize celebrities to everybody because we were basically biting bite your nose to spank your face, whatever that is, because the regular person wasn't having a great experience.
事实上，在 2017 年，我们必须让 Kevin 和 Mikey 相信，将名人优先于每个人实际上并不是正确的做法，因为我们基本上是咬着鼻子打屁股，不管是什么，因为普通人并没有获得很好的体验。
Bangaly Kaba: And so it doesn't mean that we shouldn't recommend celebrities, but Jeff recommended celebrities to people who are already on there.
Bangaly Kaba：所以这并不意味着我们不应该推荐名人，但杰夫向已经在那里的人推荐了名人。
They already have their graph.
他们已经有了图表。
And the most important thing to do is actually get regular human-to-human connections in the first whatever, when people first sign up so that when you let me actually go make your first post, your friends would see it and you would be validated and you would feel like, okay, this is a police for me.
最重要的是，当人们第一次注册时，首先要做的就是建立定期的人与人之间的联系，这样当你让我真正去发表你的第一篇帖子时，你的朋友会看到它，你会得到验证，你会觉得，好吧，这是我的警察。
I have a community here.
我这里有一个社区。
Bangaly Kaba: And so that connection pivot was critical.
Bangaly Kaba：因此连接枢纽至关重要。
It changed ...
它改变了...
Literally, angle-changed the retention on Instagram.
从字面上看，角度改变了 Instagram 上的留存率。
And so if you about Instagram's growth, there was a TechCrunch article about Instagram's growth at I think 2017, 2018 when we were going 40, 50% year over year.
因此，如果您了解 Instagram 的增长，TechCrunch 上有一篇文章介绍了 Instagram 在 2017 年和 2018 年的增长情况，当时我们的增长率为 40%、50%。
And obviously, there was a lot that went into that skyrocket.
显然，这种飙升涉及很多因素。
People think that stories was the sole reason why we grew and story brought us a lot of people, but we literally, our attention doubled over the course of a year and a half.
人们认为故事是我们成长的唯一原因，故事给我们带来了很多人，但实际上，我们的注意力在一年半的时间里翻了一番。
If you could imagine, imagine if your bank account, the interest rate doubles every month, you know what I mean?
如果你能想象，想象一下如果你的银行账户利率每月翻一番，你明白我的意思吗？
It was incredible.
这太不可思议了。
This shift in making sure that people got connected with their friends early on changed the way that people perceive the value.
这种确保人们尽早与朋友建立联系的转变改变了人们感知价值的方式。
And so a lot of the top-of-funnel work that we did, a lot of the activation work that we did really paid off in spades ultimately.
因此，我们所做的很多漏斗顶部的工作，我们所做的很多激活工作最终确实得到了回报。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。
I'm curious, what's the most impactful thing you've shipped/led to in terms of impact and experiment launch?
我很好奇，就影响力和实验启动而言，您交付/促成的最有影响力的事情是什么？
Bangaly Kaba: At Instagram, we saw this big problem where people were logging out and not being able to get back into their account.
Bangaly Kaba：在 Instagram，我们看到了一个大问题，即人们退出后无法返回他们的帐户。
It was crazy.
太疯狂了。
Hundreds of thousands of people a day could not get back into their account.
每天有数十万人无法重新访问他们的帐户。
It was because ...
那是因为...
And when I say could not get back into the account, I mean they literally would try and 28 days later, we would never see them again.
当我说无法返回帐户时，我的意思是他们确实会尝试，但 28 天后，我们再也见不到他们了。
And we thought it was a problem because they didn't remember where their email was, which email they signed up with or what their actual handle was or what their password was.
我们认为这是一个问题，因为他们不记得他们的电子邮件地址在哪里，他们注册的电子邮件地址是什么，或者他们的实际用户名是什么，或者他们的密码是什么。
We were losing 10, 12 million people a year from what we called account access churn.
我们每年因所谓的帐户访问流失而失去 10、1200 万人。
So we worked on this problem and we had spent a lot of time in South Asia and Southeast Asia trying to understand how to grow the product.
所以我们致力于解决这个问题，我们在南亚和东南亚花了很多时间试图了解如何种植该产品。
And from that time we realized that it's important actually for people to be able to log out.
从那时起，我们意识到人们能够注销实际上很重要。
Bangaly Kaba: We don't want to restrict people's ability to log out because there are many people in the world who don't want to use background data because they're on prepaid phone plans or they don't have a lot of money and they want to share their phone with a sibling and so they log out.
Bangaly Kaba：我们不想限制人们注销的能力，因为世界上有很多人不想使用后台数据，因为他们使用预付费电话套餐，或者他们没有很多钱，并且想与兄弟姐妹共享手机，所以他们注销了。
And so it's really important.
所以这非常重要。
And so we don't want to take away that behavior, but we did have to do a better job of helping them get back in.
因此，我们不想消除这种行为，但我们确实必须更好地帮助他们重新回归。
Bangaly Kaba: So we did two things.
Bangaly Kaba：所以我们做了两件事。
One was there used to be a time, and you can probably find it on Google if you did an archive search where if you wanted to log into your Instagram account, there would be a tab for your email and then there would be a tab for your handle.
一个是曾经有一段时间，如果你进行档案搜索，你可能可以在谷歌上找到它，如果你想登录你的 Instagram 帐户，会有一个用于你的电子邮件的选项卡，然后会有一个用于你的用户名的选项卡。
And we didn't really make it easy for you to log in with your phone number either.
我们也没有真正让您轻松使用电话号码登录。
You had to get to the right tab and the right place to get the right thing.
您必须进入正确的选项卡和正确的位置才能获得正确的东西。
And so we did this omnibox experience where it was just like email, phone handle, put it all in one place and we made it super simple for you.
因此，我们做了这种多功能盒体验，就像电子邮件、电话手柄一样，将所有内容放在一个地方，我们让一切变得非常简单。
And the second time, if you tried it twice and it didn't work, if we knew that you were on a trusted device, we would just send you a text message and say, Hey, are you trying to log in?
第二次，如果您尝试了两次但没有成功，如果我们知道您使用的是受信任的设备，我们只会向您发送一条短信，并说：“嘿，您正在尝试登录吗？”
That solved half the problem.
这就解决了一半的问题。
Bangaly Kaba: And then the other half, what we did, and this still exists today on Instagram.
Bangaly Kaba：然后是另一半，我们所做的，今天仍然存在于 Instagram 上。
When you log out we say, Hey Lenny, it looks like you're going to log out, do you want us to save your credentials on your advice so you don't have to worry about your password?
当您注销时，我们会说，嘿 Lenny，您似乎要注销，您是否希望我们根据您的建议保存您的凭据，以便您不必担心密码？
And then we later added an ability to have a password.
然后我们后来添加了拥有密码的功能。
And that's all basically the other half.
这基本上就是另一半了。
Bangaly Kaba: And so just being really thoughtful around what is actually the core job that people are trying to do because a bad experience would've been like, Hey, let's make it really hard for people to walk out.
Bangaly Kaba：因此，要认真思考人们正在尝试做的核心工作，因为糟糕的经历就像是，嘿，让我们让人们很难走出去。
And then how do we ...
然后我们如何...
One or two experiments really help people to get back into the experience.
一两个实验确实可以帮助人们重新获得体验。
And so what was interesting was that we were able to solve this ...
有趣的是我们能够解决这个问题......
And this actually helped drive public 15, 20 million extra month active users a year, but what was also super interesting was that it helped us to realize that getting people back into their account more drove more account content creation on incident in ways that we didn't expect.
这实际上帮助每年增加了 15、2000 万的月度活跃用户，但同样非常有趣的是，它帮助我们认识到，让人们重新访问他们的帐户会以我们意想不到的方式推动更多的帐户内容创建。
And so because we were getting people back into the account, people getting into the second account and getting into the third account and they were going into their finsta account and creating content more.
因为我们让人们重新进入帐户，人们进入第二个帐户并进入第三个帐户，他们进入他们的 finsta 帐户并创建更多内容。
And so that actually led to the creation of a multiple accounts team, which is what has made it easy for you to navigate between accounts on Instagram today.
因此，这实际上导致了多帐户团队的创建，这使得您今天可以轻松地在 Instagram 上的帐户之间导航。
Bangaly Kaba: And so that was understandable actually coming to life.
Bangaly Kaba：所以这是可以理解的。
It was, Hey, we're going to do the understand work to figure out how to solve account access issues and we're going to solve it.
嘿，我们将做理解工作，找出如何解决帐户访问问题，我们将解决它。
And solving it, when we looked at the data, we're like, Hey, why is all this account, why is all this content creation happening?
解决这个问题时，当我们查看数据时，我们会想，嘿，为什么会有这些帐户，为什么会发生所有这些内容创建？
That was not what we were expecting and where is it happening?
这不是我们所期待的，它发生在哪里？
And it was happening from second and third accounts.
这是从第二个和第三个帐户发生的。
And so that made us realize that oh, people were not only getting locked out of their first accounts, but they were actually creating a lot on the second and third accounts.
这让我们意识到，哦，人们不仅被锁定在他们的第一个帐户之外，而且他们实际上在第二个和第三个帐户上创造了很多东西。
How can we make it easy for them to get and navigate between their first account, whether it's your account and a business account or your account and account or a bakery account, you know what I mean?
我们如何才能让他们轻松地获取并在他们的第一个帐户之间导航，无论是您的帐户和企业帐户还是您的帐户和帐户或面包店帐户，您知道我的意思吗？
And so that created a multiple accounts team, which I ended up owning and that ended up even becoming a bigger effort after I left.
因此，这就创建了一个多客户团队，我最终拥有了这个团队，在我离开后，这甚至成为了一项更大的工作。
Bangaly Kaba: So that's an example of understand work, solve a real problem, real-solve and solving massive solution, massive impact, creating new data that you didn't expect that drives new understand work, which creates a whole new team to allow you to move around your Instagram account more seamlessly.
Bangaly Kaba：这是一个理解工作、解决实际问题、真正解决和解决大规模解决方案、巨大影响、创建你意想不到的新数据的例子，这些数据会推动新的理解工作，从而创建一个全新的团队，让你可以更无缝地在你的 Instagram 帐户中移动。
And you can see this now when you go to post, you can decide, okay, I want to post as Lenny, I want to post as this other thing, or when I want to write a story, you can change anywhere.
现在，当您发帖时，您可以看到这一点，您可以决定，好吧，我想以莱尼的身份发帖，我想以其他东西的身份发帖，或者当我想写一个故事时，您可以在任何地方进行更改。
And that was all an effort that originally came out of this realization.
这一切都是出于这种认识而做出的努力。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love how many of these huge impact stories are just such straightforward, simple things like just let people log in more easily, help them log out more effectively, fine, show them their friends versus celebrities.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这些具有巨大影响力的故事中有很多都是如此简单明了的事情，比如让人们更轻松地登录，帮助他们更有效地注销，很好，向他们展示他们的朋友与名人。
So many of these stories are often just really simple ideas that lead to such profound change.
很多这样的故事往往只是非常简单的想法，但却导致了如此深刻的变化。
The log-out example is interesting.
注销的例子很有趣。
At Airbnb, we found the log-out was actually causing a lot of churn also, but they went ...
在 Airbnb，我们发现注销实际上也造成了很多客户流失，但他们……
Initially, they went with a simple solution of just extend the session, log-out link instead of a week, make it two weeks or three weeks or four weeks.
最初，他们采用了一个简单的解决方案，即延长会话、注销链接而不是一周，使其为两周、三周或四周。
You pointed out with Instagram, people actually wanted to log out.
你指出，在 Instagram 上，人们实际上想退出。
They're like, let's leave that alone.
他们就像，让我们别管它。
Start with making it easier to log back in.
首先让重新登录变得更容易。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Man, you're so full of amazing stories.
伙计，你真是充满了精彩的故事。
I'm curious with Facebook, maybe just as I wrap up here, is there anything there?
我对 Facebook 很好奇，也许就在我结束本文时，那里有什么东西吗？
Because you were an early growth PM at Facebook.
因为您是 Facebook 的早期增长产品经理。
You worked a lot on friends and helping people discover their friends.
你在朋友方面做了很多工作，帮助人们发现他们的朋友。
Is there anything in there that would be interesting to share?
里面有什么有趣的东西可以分享吗？
Bangaly Kaba: In my time, so I joined Instagram or Facebook in 2014 and I was responsible for people recommendations globally.
Bangaly Kaba：在我那个时代，我在 2014 年加入了 Instagram 或 Facebook，负责全球范围内的人员推荐。
And at the time, Facebook was at scale and big and dominated North America.
当时，Facebook 规模庞大，在北美占据主导地位。
And so really the focus area at the time was South Asia and Southeast Asia.
因此，当时的重点区域实际上是南亚和东南亚。
And we noticed a lot of really interesting things, especially in India.
我们注意到很多非常有趣的事情，尤其是在印度。
Facebook seemed to be broken from a people graph perspective.
从人物图谱的角度来看，Facebook 似乎已经被打破了。
The data was telling us people didn't have as many friends in common.
数据告诉我们，人们没有那么多共同的朋友。
In the US, it might've been on just making up a number.
在美国，这可能只是编造一个数字。
On average, we saw 22 friends in common when you make a friendship connection.
平均而言，当您建立友谊关系时，我们会看到 22 个共同朋友。
But in India, it was like seven, right?
但在印度，这个数字大约是七个，对吧？
And then there was a lot of friending and messaging or friending and unfriending.
然后有很多交友和消息，或者交友和取消交友。
We're like, what's going on here?
我们想，这里发生了什么事？
So we had some hypotheses from the data, we ran a bunch of tests.
因此，我们根据数据提出了一些假设，并进行了一系列测试。
Nothing seemed to work and be a breakthrough.
似乎没有什么能发挥作用，也没有什么突破。
Bangaly Kaba: So actually, at that time, I had to propose and they agreed to do this.
Bangaly Kaba：所以实际上，当时我必须提议，他们同意这样做。
We needed to do understand work.
我们需要做理解工作。
So we were literally on the ground in India every three months took a team of engineers with me.
因此，我们每三个月都会派出一支工程师团队前往印度实地考察。
I'm talking like we're in Delhi in people's homes and Mumbai, and we went to go investigate what was going on, watch people make friends, watch them use people you may know and really understand what was happening and see what was going on because we felt like there was context that we were missing.
我说的就像我们在德里和孟买的人们家里一样，我们去调查正在发生的事情，观察人们交朋友，观察他们使用你可能认识的人，真正了解正在发生的事情，看看正在发生什么，因为我们觉得我们缺少了一些背景。
Bangaly Kaba: There was a lot of things that we learned.
Bangaly Kaba：我们学到了很多东西。
It was mind-blowing.
这真是令人兴奋。
But one of the most interesting things, Lenny, was that we watched people try to make friends and we said, "Hey wait, that's their profile page.
但最有趣的事情之一，莱尼，是我们看到人们试图交朋友，我们说，“嘿等等，那是他们的个人资料页面。
Why aren't you looking at it?" And they would say, "Well, that doesn't have any relevant information for me, so I need to go look in the pictures." They're like, "Well, why doesn't the profile page have relevant information for you?
你为什么不看看？”他们会说：“好吧，这对我来说没有任何相关信息，所以我需要去看看照片。”他们会说，“好吧，为什么个人资料页面没有与你相关的信息？
That's where the information's supposed to be." And they're like, "Listen, this guy's named Amit Kumar.
这就是信息应该存在的地方。”他们就像，“听着，这个人叫阿米特·库马尔。
I have 10 friends named Amit Kumar.
我有 10 个朋友，名字叫阿米特·库马尔 (Amit Kumar)。
What is this page going to tell me?" And they would scroll down, they'd be like, "All of these fields are not relevant to me." And so you look at it, Facebook at the time, it was very Western-centric.
这个页面会告诉我什么？”他们会向下滚动，他们会说，“所有这些领域都与我无关。”所以你看，当时的 Facebook，它非常以西方为中心。
It's probably still is, it was like name, it was like school you went to, job title, affiliations, that kind of stuff.
可能仍然是，就像名字，就像你上过的学校，职位，隶属关系，诸如此类的东西。
That's all Western paradigms.
这就是西方的范式。
Some of these people are like, my friends sell jeans at a market.
其中一些人就像，我的朋友在市场上卖牛仔裤。
None of this is relevant.
这些都不相关。
You don't even know the name of the school.
你甚至不知道学校的名字。
Sometimes it might be a number or something.
有时它可能是一个数字或其他东西。
And so all of the descriptors that we take for granted were not relevant and the names were very common.
因此，我们认为理所当然的所有描述符都是不相关的，并且名称非常常见。
Bangaly Kaba: This was really illuminating.
Bangaly Kaba：这确实很有启发。
So what they would do is go look at pictures and say, is this my friend's car or is this my friend's ...
所以他们会做的就是看照片并说，这是我朋友的车还是我朋友的......
Can I see my friend's animal and what's available?
我可以看看我朋友的动物吗？有什么可用的？
And it was interesting because the understand work, at least the more realization.
这很有趣，因为理解是有效的，至少是更多的认识。
So we went back to Menlo Park with the data, turned out ...
所以我们带着数据回到门洛帕克，结果......
We said, okay, let's look at the data in a different way.
我们说，好吧，让我们以不同的方式来看看数据。
What are the most common names on Facebook?
Facebook 上最常见的名字是什么？
And we looked at, and the top 10 common names are Indian names.
我们发现，前 10 个常见名字都是印度名字。
And the most common name was Amit Kumar.
最常见的名字是阿米特·库马尔。
And there was like 250,000 people a month who used Amit Kumar who were real people.
每月大约有 250,000 人使用 Amit Kumar，他们是真实的人。
So imagine you're in Bangalore and you're trying to find your buddy named Amit Kumar.
想象一下，您在班加罗尔，正在尝试寻找您的好友阿米特·库马尔 (Amit Kumar)。
It's probably 5,000 that we could possibly recommend.
我们可能推荐的可能是 5,000。
So super interesting was like the cultural context was so different.
非常有趣的是，文化背景是如此不同。
So we had to get creative, find creative ways to figure out how to solve it.
所以我们必须发挥创造力，找到创造性的方法来解决这个问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: The power of understand work shines again.
Lenny Rachitsky：理解工作的力量再次闪耀。
We have a recurring segment on this podcast called Fail Corner where ask guests to share a time they failed in their career and what they learned from that experience because a lot of people look at your career and your story and just like, holy shit, what a journey.
我们在这个播客上有一个反复出现的部分，名为“失败角”，要求嘉宾分享他们在职业生涯中失败的一次经历，以及他们从这次经历中学到的东西，因为很多人看着你的职业生涯和你的故事，就像，天啊，这真是一段旅程。
I will never be able to achieve this.
我永远无法实现这一目标。
Is there a time when things didn't go well and something that you took away from that experience?
是否有过事情进展不顺利的时候，你从那次经历中学到了什么？
Bangaly Kaba: Probably for me, I think my time at Instacart was probably not my best time.
Bangaly Kaba：可能对我来说，我认为在 Instacart 的时光可能不是我最好的时光。
I think I went to Instacart with a vision of what I felt the product could be or should be.
我认为我进入 Instacart 时是带着对产品可能或应该是什么的愿景。
And it was I think a big story that I deeply believed, but I was not, I think aware or in tune with what the DNA of the company was at the time, which was it was like a company that was really great at operations because that was the core of what they did.
我认为这是一个我深信不疑的大故事，但我认为当时我并没有意识到或不了解公司的 DNA，这就像一家非常擅长运营的公司，因为这是他们所做的核心。
And they were really building out a lot of their product experience and a lot of what the new function.
他们确实积累了大量的产品体验和新功能。
And so I think what they needed at the time was a much more tactical in the weeds, get your hands dirty, do, do, do because they hadn't really seen that before.
所以我认为他们当时需要的是更具战术性的杂草，亲力亲为，做，做，做，因为他们以前从未真正见过这一点。
And what I wanted to deliver in that experience was more building the right systems, the right people, the right processes so that we can figure out how to institutionalize the work.
我想通过这次经历更多地构建正确的系统、正确的人员、正确的流程，以便我们能够弄清楚如何将工作制度化。
Bangaly Kaba: And I think for me that was probably my biggest oversight is that I think they needed more tactical and I was more ...
Bangaly Kaba：我认为对我来说，这可能是我最大的疏忽，我认为他们需要更多的战术，而我更......
I don't want to say in the clouds, but more thinking about where do we want to go with the experience that we need to build versus let me get deep in the funnel data.
我不想说在云端，而是更多地思考我们需要构建的体验应该去往何处，而不是让我深入了解漏斗数据。
It felt like it became loggerheads where I didn't feel like I was probably either delivering what they wanted or being supported in the way that I wanted to be supported.
感觉就像是陷入了争执，我觉得我可能要么没有提供他们想要的东西，要么以我想要的方式得到支持。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is the lesson there to spend more time and understand work before you take a job to make sure you're aligned with what they're looking for?
Lenny Rachitsky：在你接受一份工作之前，你是否应该花更多的时间来了解工作，以确保你符合他们的要求？
Bangaly Kaba: That is actually the lesson.
Bangaly Kaba：这实际上是一个教训。
And I think it's part of that is it's doing that.
我认为这是其中的一部分，因为它正在这样做。
One of my takeaways is do that not only with the people there but with the people who've left it to, but the people who've left the company will give you a perspective that is raw and different and much more I think aligned with what you want to hear.
我的收获之一是，不仅要与那里的人，还要与那些已经离开公司的人一起这样做，而且离开公司的人会给你一个原始的、不同的观点，而且我认为更符合你想听到的观点。
And it may or may not be the same, but I think the people ...
它可能相同也可能不同，但我认为人们......
This isn't specific to Instacart.
这并非 Instacart 特有的。
Whenever you talk to people who are at the company, they're always try to tell you the best version of the company.
每当你与公司里的人交谈时，他们总是试图告诉你公司最好的一面。
The people who left will tell you what the worst version or their version and it's on you to triangulate that information, but you need both sides.
离开的人会告诉你最糟糕的版本或他们的版本是什么，你需要对这些信息进行三角测量，但你需要双方。
Lenny Rachitsky: Love that lesson.
Lenny Rachitsky：喜欢那堂课。
Bangaly, is there anything else that you want to share or leave listeners with before we get to our very exciting lightning round?
Bangaly，在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想与听众分享或留给听众的吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: We have.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我们有。
With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
I've got six questions for you.
我有六个问题要问你。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: First question, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?
Lenny Rachitsky：第一个问题，您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？
Bangaly Kaba: Few I've recommended most of them are Over My Shoulder, actually Range by David Epstein.
Bangaly Kaba：我推荐的很少，大部分都是《Over My Shoulder》，实际上是 David Epstein 的《Range》。
I think are really critical PM work really being able to be a master of a lot of different things or somewhat deep in a lot of different things.
我认为 PM 工作真的很重要，能够成为很多不同事物的大师，或者在很多不同的事物上有一定的深度。
Deep Work, Cal Newport, kind of clearing space to be focused and do the things thinking about the most important work in a deep and undisturbed way.
深度工作，加州纽波特，一种清理空间，让你能够集中精力，以一种深入且不受干扰的方式思考最重要的工作。
And then Start At The End by Matt Waller, who's a behavioral scientist buddy of mine.
然后是我的行为科学家好友马特·沃勒 (Matt Waller) 的《从结尾开始》(Start At The End)。
Really thoughtful book, helps you really think about what you're building, but in a way that's more holistic.
一本真正有思想的书，可以帮助你真正思考你正在构建的东西，但以一种更全面的方式。
Lenny Rachitsky: Do you have a favorite interview question that you like to ask candidates when you're interviewing them?
Lenny Rachitsky：在面试应聘者时，您最喜欢问他们的面试问题有哪些吗？
Bangaly Kaba: I've got a relatively new one that I love.
Bangaly Kaba：我有一个我喜欢的相对较新的。
This works exceptionally well I believe for more senior hires, whether they're like group product managers, directors, or even kind of senior ICs.
我相信这对于更高级的员工来说非常有效，无论他们是集团产品经理、总监，甚至是高级 IC。
I go through and I think about what are the four, usually five skills that are really critical for someone to have in this job.
我会仔细研究并思考对于从事这份工作的人来说真正至关重要的四种（通常是五种）技能是什么。
And I think about them myself and I think about the archetypes of what is the ratio I want of these?
我自己思考它们，思考我想要的比例是多少的原型？
But then I ask them, I say, Hey, take out a piece of paper or take out your laptop.
但后来我问他们，我说，嘿，拿出一张纸或拿出你的笔记本电脑。
I'm going to give you five skills and I want you to stack-rank them for me.
我将向您提供五项技能，并希望您为我对它们进行堆叠排名。
One to five.
一比五。
So one being the one you're strongest at and five being the one you're relatively weakest at.
因此，其中一项是您最擅长的一项，五项是您相对最弱的一项。
Bangaly Kaba: So it's way better than saying give me your strengths and weaknesses.
Bangaly Kaba：所以这比说告诉我你的优点和缺点要好得多。
It also forces them to contextualize it against the skills that you're looking for, but it also helps you have a meaningful conversation around how they think about themselves and their self-awareness and to what extent they're ranking these skills based on the context they're in versus their own ability.
它还迫使他们将其与您正在寻找的技能结合起来，但它也可以帮助您围绕他们如何看待自己和自我意识以及他们根据自己所处的环境与自己的能力对这些技能进行排名进行有意义的对话。
Bangaly Kaba: Sometimes you rank something a five because something you would just weak at because you haven't had to do because there's a strong function at that company.
Bangaly Kaba：有时你会把某件事排在五分，因为某件事是你不擅长的，因为你不必这样做，因为该公司有一个强大的职能。
And so when they stack-rank it and then people are like ...
所以当他们对它进行堆叠排名时，人们就像......
I've asked this probably four or five times on a recent role.
我在最近的一个角色中可能已经问过四五次这个问题了。
I hire people like, Ooh, this is really hard.
我雇用这样的人，哦，这真的很难。
But really good question.
但这确实是个好问题。
I usually will dig into what is number two and what's number four and number five, and why?
我通常会深入研究什么是第二号，什么是第四号和第五号，为什么？
And it really helps me to one, calibrate am I looking for the right person?
它确实帮助我校准我是否在寻找合适的人？
And two, are their skills actually a match for what we need at this time?
第二，他们的技能真的符合我们目前的需求吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: I love when I hear a question I've never heard before.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢听到以前从未听过的问题。
That is genius.
那是天才。
Next question, do you have a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really like?
下一个问题，您最近发现有您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？
Bangaly Kaba: I think one that I enjoy quite a lot ...
Bangaly Kaba：我认为我非常喜欢的一个......
Actually, it's really kind of ...
事实上，这真的有点...
It's really simple, but amazing is this app called Flighty.
它非常简单，但令人惊奇的是这个名为 Flighty 的应用程序。
You heard of it?
你听说过吗？
F-L-I-G-H-T-Y.
轻浮。
Bangaly Kaba: It is a travel app and it manages all of your flight itineraries and your friends' itineraries.
Bangaly Kaba：这是一款旅行应用程序，它管理您的所有航班行程和您朋友的行程。
But the reason why I love it is it goes two or three clicks deeper than the average travel app or your airline app and it tells you when your inbound plane is running late, it helps you to understand where the gates on.
但我喜欢它的原因是它比一般的旅行应用程序或航空公司应用程序更深入两到三次点击，它会告诉您进港飞机何时晚点，它可以帮助您了解登机口在哪里。
My wife was just in Madrid last week.
我妻子上周刚在马德里。
And she texted me saying, "Hey, I'm at the airport but no gate is announced." I looked at Flighty, I'm like, "Your gate is E67.
她给我发短信说：“嘿，我在机场，但没有宣布登机口。”我看着 Flighty，心想，“你的登机口是 E67。
It's actually been assigned but it hasn't been announced." And this happens a lot in Europe.
实际上已经分配了，但还没有宣布。”这种情况在欧洲经常发生。
You'll be there and they won't tell you the gate until an hour beforehand.
你会到达那里，直到提前一小时他们才会告诉你登机口。
Bangaly Kaba: So it gives you so much information right before.
Bangaly Kaba：所以它之前就给了你很多信息。
It's actually publicly announced, which is really helpful, especially if you really need to be somewhere because oftentimes I know if my plane's going to be late and if I need to rebook before anyone else does, which helps you, gives you a better chance of getting somewhere.
它实际上是公开宣布的，这非常有帮助，特别是如果您确实需要去某个地方，因为我经常知道我的飞机是否会晚点，以及我是否需要在其他人之前重新预订，这对您有帮助，让您有更好的机会到达某个地方。
Or I will be able to get to a gate, I get to SFO and it might not be on the board at SFO, but I know exactly where it gave you this.
或者我将能够到达登机口，我到达 SFO，它可能不在 SFO 的板上，但我确切地知道它在哪里给了你这个。
So really a great app.
所以这确实是一个很棒的应用程序。
Can't say enough about it.
对此不能说太多。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm downloading it right now.
Lenny Rachitsky：我现在正在下载。
It's got a bazillion reviews, five stars.
它有无数的评论，五颗星。
Thank you for the recommendation.
谢谢你的推荐。
Incredibly useful.
非常有用。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm trying out a new question.
Lenny Rachitsky：我正在尝试一个新问题。
You've joined a bunch of different companies.
你已经加入了很多不同的公司。
What's one thing that you've done in the first 90 days at the job that has made a big impact?
在您上任的前 90 天里，您做过的对您产生重大影响的一件事是什么？
Bangaly Kaba: I go and I sit in team meetings and see how they operate.
Bangaly Kaba：我去参加团队会议，看看他们是如何运作的。
I just listen.
我只是听着。
I talk to not only the PMs but the content designer and everyone, and I try to get to know them by both name and story.
我不仅与产品经理交谈，还与内容设计师和每个人交谈，我尝试通过名字和故事来了解他们。
And what I mean by that, it's like oftentimes people, execs come in and they're like, what are we doing?
我的意思是，人们、高管经常进来，他们会问，我们在做什么？
What are we prioritizing?
我们优先考虑什么？
Why does it matter?
为什么这很重要？
And they don't really take the time to actually learn who the people are, what the story is, what they care about, what they're passionate about, both professionally and personally and really try to understand how the team is working from that person's perspective.
他们并没有真正花时间去真正了解这些人是谁，有什么故事，他们关心什么，他们热衷于什么，无论是专业还是个人，也没有真正尝试从那个人的角度理解团队是如何工作的。
Bangaly Kaba: And what I find is actually when I do that, people are way more willing to hear ...
Bangaly Kaba：我发现实际上当我这样做时，人们更愿意听到......
When it is time for me to share my thoughts, they're way more invested because they believe I'm invested in that.
当我分享我的想法时，他们会更加投入，因为他们相信我对此投入了精力。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
Two more questions.
还有两个问题。
Do you have a favorite life motto that you really like and find useful and often share with friends or family in work or in life?
您是否有一条您真正喜欢并且觉得有用并且经常在工作或生活中与朋友或家人分享的最喜欢的人生格言？
Bangaly Kaba: I'm not big on mottos.
Bangaly Kaba：我不太热衷于座右铭。
There's one that I've actually been repeating.
有一个我实际上一直在重复的。
I don't remember.
我不记得了。
I got it done ...
我搞定了...
It might have been like Adam Grant or someone on Instagram, but it was ...
它可能像 Adam Grant 或 Instagram 上的某个人，但它是......
It's one, I said it to a colleague of mine, he's like, "Wow, that really hit differently." I think it goes something like this.
这是一个，我对我的一位同事说，他说，“哇，这真的很不一样。”我认为事情是这样的。
People and teams don't really reach ...
人和团队并没有真正达到......
They don't actually reach their goals.
他们实际上并没有达到他们的目标。
They fall to the level of their systems.
他们下降到他们的系统的水平。
Bangaly Kaba: And that to me was really powerful because I struggle a lot with just being balanced in life, working out the way I want to and getting the right rest and making sure that I'm spending time in all the right places.
Bangaly Kaba：这对我来说真的很强大，因为我在生活中保持平衡、以我想要的方式锻炼、得到正确的休息以及确保我把时间花在所有正确的地方方面付出了很多努力。
And that's really like ...
这真的就像...
It's a goal of mine.
这是我的一个目标。
But the problem is that I don't ...
但问题是我不...
My system for that specifically, I tend to ...
我的系统具体来说，我倾向于......
I'm not rigorous with it is when I need to be.
当我需要的时候，我并不严格。
Bangaly Kaba: But on the other hand, at work, I'm very rigorous in the systems and processes.
Bangaly Kaba：但另一方面，在工作中，我对系统和流程非常严格。
So really that saying to me really hits because it is both applicable to your life and how you want to live your life but also how you want to run your teams.
所以这句话对我来说确实很重要，因为它既适用于你的生活，也适用于你想要如何过自己的生活，也适用于你想要如何管理你的团队。
Lenny Rachitsky: Final question.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：最后一个问题。
You mentioned that you were a dean at a school, a boarding school.
你提到你是一所寄宿学校的院长。
Is there something that you take away from that experience that's going to sticks with you?
你从这次经历中学到的东西有没有让你难以忘怀的？
I know you mentioned one thing about treat PM's skills are similar to teacher skills.
我知道你提到过一件事，即对待 PM 的技能与老师的技能相似。
There anything else there?
那里还有别的事吗？
Bangaly Kaba: Actually, so I was a dean of a boarding school in Switzerland, which was actually one of the most fun and interesting times of my life.
Bangaly Kaba：实际上，我是瑞士一所寄宿学校的院长，这实际上是我一生中最有趣的时光之一。
It was an American school in Switzerland just outside of Lugano, Switzerland, the Italian-speaking section.
这是一所位于瑞士的美国学校，位于瑞士意大利语区卢加诺郊外。
I learned a lot about myself during the time.
在那段时间我对自己有了很多了解。
I learned a lot about just relationships and people.
我学到了很多关于人际关系和人的知识。
I actually had a call with one of my old students this morning.
事实上，今天早上我和我的一位老学生通了电话。
She's like in her thirties now.
她现在好像三十多岁了。
This was like 20 years ago.
这就像20年前的事了。
So I still keep in touch with them.
所以我仍然和他们保持着联系。
And I think that's the comment I made about knowing people by name and story matters a lot.
我认为这就是我关于通过名字和故事来了解人们的评论，这很重要。
It says a lot that 20 years later I'm still talking to some of these students who are their own adults running their own businesses.
20年后，我仍在与其中一些学生交谈，这说明了很多问题，他们已经是成年人，经营着自己的企业。
But also I think the human challenges and human connection, human problems, very universal.
但我也认为人类的挑战、人类的联系、人类的问题非常普遍。
Bangaly Kaba: This was a really interesting place when you had kids coming from a variety of different walks of life, some who lived in Azerbaijan or Kosovo and felt like ...
Bangaly Kaba：这是一个非常有趣的地方，这里有来自各行各业的孩子，其中一些住在阿塞拜疆或科索沃，感觉就像......
The families felt like they couldn't be safe there, so they wanted to send the kids somewhere else.
这些家庭觉得那里不安全，所以他们想把孩子送到其他地方。
So some kids whose parents worked at the US Embassy and just were kind of there for a little bit of time.
有些孩子的父母在美国大使馆工作，只是在那里呆了一段时间。
And what I found to be true is that just spending time with people and understanding their own story and family life really led to a lot of shared interests and passions.
我发现事实是，仅仅花时间与人们在一起并了解他们自己的故事和家庭生活确实会带来很多共同的兴趣和热情。
And it helped really me to see that the world can be very similar in so many ways and it is very much reflected to me in my day-to-day life in tech because as you know in the Bay Area, there's so many people who come from so many walks of life who end up in this journey building these products and companies and just help me to value so many different voices.
这对我很有帮助，让我看到世界在很多方面都可以非常相似，这在我的科技日常生活中得到了很好的体现，因为正如你所知，在湾区，有很多来自各行各业的人，他们最终踏上了打造这些产品和公司的旅程，帮助我重视这么多不同的声音。
Bangaly Kaba: If you want to build world-class products, if you want to build product that can scale around the world, if you want to build product that's be hypergrowth, you have to be inclusive of so many voices.
Bangaly Kaba：如果你想打造世界一流的产品，如果你想打造可以在全球范围内扩展的产品，如果你想打造高速增长的产品，你必须包容这么多的声音。
And so you have to build that skill to be able to acknowledge and learn from and to live in tension with different voices.
因此，你必须培养这种技能，以便能够承认不同的声音，从中学习，并与不同的声音一起生活。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is beautiful.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：那太美了。
I love that we're ending there.
我喜欢我们就这样结束。
Bangaly, I feel like we've done a lot of understand work and I think we've helped a lot of people with a lot of things we talked about so much.
Bangaly，我觉得我们做了很多理解工作，我认为我们已经通过我们讨论过的很多事情帮助了很多人。
Two final questions.
最后两个问题。
Where can folks find you online if they want to follow what you're up to, and how can listeners be useful to you?
如果人们想了解您的动态，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？
Bangaly Kaba: For as much as I've worked at social companies, I actually don't use my social products that much.
Bangaly Kaba：虽然我在社交公司工作过很多次，但实际上我并不经常使用我的社交产品。
I'm on Instagram.
我在 Instagram 上。
If you look @iambangaly, I-A-M-B-A-N-G-A-L-Y, Google that.
如果你看@iambangaly，I-A-M-B-A-N-G-A-L-Y，谷歌一下。
All of my socials handles all have the same kind of link including LinkedIn.
我的所有社交账号都有相同类型的链接，包括 LinkedIn。
So hit me up whenever.
所以每次都来打我。
And then what can people do useful for me?
那么人们能为我做什么有用的事情呢？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't have a short list.
我没有简短的名单。
I would say I love to hear people's stories.
我想说我喜欢听人们的故事。
I love to give advice.
我喜欢提供建议。
Obviously, my time is a little bit limited occasionally, but I think if people can share with me things that they're learning or things that they see in the market, or if they have questions, I always love to hear it.
显然，我的时间偶尔有点有限，但我认为如果人们可以与我分享他们正在学习的东西或他们在市场上看到的东西，或者如果他们有疑问，我总是很乐意听到。
And so I think for me, just hearing other people's stories and learning what other people are doing is probably the most rewarding for me.
所以我认为对我来说，仅仅听到别人的故事并了解别人在做什么可能对我来说是最有价值的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Bangaly, thank you so much for being here.
Lenny Rachitsky：Bangaly，非常感谢您来到这里。
Bangaly Kaba: Thank you.
班加利·卡巴：谢谢。
This is amazing.
这太棒了。
I really appreciate you, Lenny.
我真的很感谢你，莱尼。
Lenny Rachitsky: Bye, everyone.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：再见，大家。
Thank you so much for listening.
非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Lenny Rachitsky: Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
Lenny Rachitsky：另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.
您可以在 lennyspodcast 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
com.
com.
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。