The ultimate guide to Martech | Austin Hay (Reforge, Ramp, Runway)
Austin Hay: From 2010 to 2020, we had the golden years of deterministic matching where it was very easy to run an ad and understand with precision who installed the app.
Austin Hay：从 2010 年到 2020 年，我们经历了确定性匹配的黄金岁月，可以轻松投放广告并准确了解谁安装了该应用程序。
Maybe you didn't know their name, but you actually would know their IDFA and you could tie that to their PII.
也许您不知道他们的名字，但您实际上会知道他们的 IDFA，并且可以将其与他们的 PII 联系起来。
You can't do that anymore.
你不能再这样做了。
So, what that means is these ad networks are becoming more complex, sophisticated, and interesting, right at the same time that it's harder for marketers to really understand how they're spending money.
因此，这意味着这些广告网络正变得更加复杂、精密和有趣，同时营销人员更难真正了解他们如何花钱。
And so I am paying a lot of attention to how marketers make decisions with probabilistic data because most of the work that I'm doing now is actually saying, well, given that we don't have determinist data about a per certain audience or where somebody came from, how can I find other information that will create a model for 30% of the population and we can use that to extrapolate to a hundred.
因此，我非常关注营销人员如何利用概率数据做出决策，因为我现在所做的大部分工作实际上是在说，鉴于我们没有关于每个特定受众或某个人来自哪里的确定性数据，我如何才能找到其他信息来为 30% 的人口创建模型，并且我们可以使用它来推断到 100%。
Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast, where I interview you world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hardwood experiences building and growing today's most successful products.
莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客，我在这里采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，以学习他们构建和发展当今最成功产品的硬木经验。
Today my guest is Austin Hay.
今天我的客人是奥斯汀·海伊。
Austin is one of the smartest people in the world on the field of MarTech, aka Marketing Technology.
奥斯汀是世界上 MarTech（又名营销技术）领域最聪明的人之一。
He's advised companies like Notion, Airbnb, Walmart, Postmates, Robinhood, even Pete's Coffee and Mars on their MarTech strategy and tactics.
他为 Notion、Airbnb、沃尔玛、Postmates、Robinhood、甚至 Pete's Coffee 和 Mars 等公司的 MarTech 战略和策略提供了建议。
He's currently head of marketing technology at Ramp.
他目前是 Ramp 的营销技术主管。
Before that, he was VP of business operations at Runway.
在此之前，他曾担任 Runway 的业务运营副总裁。
Before that, he was VP of growth at mParticle and the fourth employee at the Unicorn Branch Metrics.
在此之前，他曾担任 mParticle 的增长副总裁以及 Unicorn Branch Metrics 的第四名员工。
He's also a teacher at Reforge on this very topic of MarTech.
他也是 Reforge 的 MarTech 主题教师。
In our conversation, Austin explains what exactly is MarTech, how it fits into your growth organization when you need to hire a MarTech person and what to look for plus his favorite interview questions.
在我们的谈话中，Austin 解释了 MarTech 到底是什么、当您需要雇用 MarTech 人员时它如何适合您的成长型组织、需要寻找什么以及他最喜欢的面试问题。
Lenny: Also, his favorite tools, frameworks, team structures, and emerging platforms that he's most excited about.
Lenny：此外，还有他最喜欢的工具、框架、团队结构以及他最感兴趣的新兴平台。
This episode is for anyone who's responsible for growth and is curious about ways to optimize your approach and how marketing technology fits into that.
本集适合所有负责增长并好奇如何优化您的方法以及营销技术如何融入其中的人。
Enjoy this episode with Austin Hay after a short word from our sponsors.
在我们的赞助商简短致辞后，请与 Austin Hay 一起享受这一集。
Today's episode is brought to you by OneSchema, the embeddable CSV importer for SaaS.
今天的节目由 OneSchema 为您带来，OneSchema 是 SaaS 的嵌入式 CSV 导入器。
Customers always seem to want to give you their data in the messiest possible CSV file.
客户似乎总是希望在最混乱的 CSV 文件中向您提供他们的数据。
And building a spreadsheet importer becomes a never ending sync for your engineering and support resources.
构建电子表格导入器将成为您的工程和支持资源的永无休止的同步。
You keep adding features to your spreadsheet importer, but customers keep running into issues.
您不断向电子表格导入器添加功能，但客户不断遇到问题。
Six months later, you're fixing yet another date conversion edge case bug.
六个月后，您正在修复另一个日期转换边缘情况错误。
Most tools aren't built for handling messy data, but OneSchema is.
大多数工具并不是为处理杂乱数据而构建的，但 OneSchema 却是。
Lenny: Companies like Scale AI and PAVE are using OneSchema to make it fast and easy to launch delightful spreadsheet import experiences from embeddable CSV import to importing CSVs from an SFTP folder on a recurring basis.
Lenny：像 Scale AI 和 PAVE 这样的公司正在使用 OneSchema 来快速、轻松地启动令人愉悦的电子表格导入体验，从嵌入式 CSV 导入到定期从 SFTP 文件夹导入 CSV。
Spreadsheet import is such an awful experience in so many products.
对于许多产品来说，电子表格导入是一种非常糟糕的体验。
Customers get frustrated by useless messages like error on line 53 and never end up getting started with your product.
客户会对第 53 行错误等无用消息感到沮丧，并且永远不会开始使用您的产品。
OneSchema intelligently corrects messy data so that your customers don't have to spend hours in Excel just to get started with your product.
OneSchema 可以智能地纠正杂乱的数据，这样您的客户就不必在 Excel 上花费数小时来开始使用您的产品。
Lenny: For listeners of this podcast, OneSchema is offering a $1,000 discount.
Lenny：OneSchema 为该播客的听众提供 1,000 美元的折扣。
Learn more at oneschema.co/lenny.
如需了解更多信息，请访问 oneschema.co/lenny。
This episode is brought to you by Mixpanel.
本集由 Mixpanel 为您带来。
Get deep insights into what your users are doing at every stage of the funnel at a fair price that scales as you grow.
以随着您的成长而扩展的合理价格，深入了解您的用户在渠道每个阶段的行为。
Mixpanel gives you quick answers about your users from awareness to acquisition through retention, and by capturing website activity, ad data, and multi-touch attribution, right in Mixpanel, you can improve every aspect of the full user funnel.
Mixpanel 为您提供有关用户的快速答案，从认知到获取再到保留，并且通过在 Mixpanel 中捕获网站活动、广告数据和多点触控归因，您可以改进整个用户渠道的各个方面。
Powered by first party behavioral data instead of third party cookies.
由第一方行为数据而非第三方 cookie 提供支持。
Mixpanel is built to be more powerful and easier to use than Google Analytics.
Mixpanel 的构建比 Google Analytics 更强大、更易于使用。
Explore plans for teams of every size and see what Mixpanel can do for you at mixpanel.com/friends/lenny.
访问 mixpanel.com/friends/lenny，探索适合各种规模团队的计划并了解 Mixpanel 可以为您做什么。
And while you're at it, they're also hiring.
当你在做这件事的时候，他们也在招聘。
So, check it out at mixpanel.com/friends/lenny.
因此，请访问 mixpanel.com/friends/lenny 进行查看。
Austin, thank you so much for being here.
奥斯汀，非常感谢你来到这里。
Welcome to the podcast.
欢迎来到播客。
Austin Hay: Lenny.
奥斯汀·海伊：莱尼。
Thank you so much for having me.
非常感谢你邀请我。
Lenny: We are going to get super nerdy today and we're going to dive deep into the very cool field of MarTech.
Lenny：今天我们将变得超级书呆子，我们将深入研究 MarTech 这个非常酷的领域。
How excited are you about us chatting about MarTech?
您对我们谈论 MarTech 感到有多兴奋？
Austin Hay: I'm so excited.
奥斯汀·海伊：我很兴奋。
Because it seems like you might be one of the first people in product and growth to talk about MarTech.
因为看起来你可能是产品和增长领域第一批谈论 MarTech 的人之一。
Lenny: Wow, okay.
莱尼：哇，好吧。
That makes me even more excited.
这让我更加兴奋。
Yeah, it's something that I haven't fully understood and so I'm excited to dig real deep.
是的，这是我还没有完全理解的事情，所以我很高兴能深入挖掘。
So, let's start with just the basics.
那么，让我们从基础知识开始。
What exactly is MarTech and then what does someone who is in MarTech do?
MarTech 到底是什么？MarTech 领域的人是做什么的？
Austin Hay: Such a good question.
奥斯汀·海伊：这是个好问题。
Because marketing technology is like this very amorphous, cross-functional discipline that lives at the crossroads of product and growth and engineering and marketing.
因为营销技术就像一门非常无定形的跨职能学科，处于产品和增长、工程和营销的十字路口。
It brings together processes and systems from a wide range of disciplines.
它汇集了来自广泛学科的流程和系统。
And I think really the way to think about marketing technology is it's a product manager whose specific role and focus is the system or the third party or first party platform because marketing technology can mean a collection of third party tools, which is a lot of people think, but as a company scales and grows actually it could include a collection of first party homegrown solutions that you build yourself with or in addition to third party.
我认为真正考虑营销技术的方式是，产品经理的具体角色和重点是系统或第三方或第一方平台，因为营销技术可能意味着第三方工具的集合，这是很多人的想法，但随着公司的规模和发展，它实际上可能包括您自己构建的第一方本土解决方案的集合，或者除了第三方之外的其他解决方案。
So, I like to think about marketing technology more as one piece is people and process and the other is the system and the platform.
所以，我更喜欢思考营销技术，一方面是人和流程，另一方面是系统和平台。
And that probably sounds pretty familiar to what a lot of product people think about their world as, and that's how I define MarTech.
对于很多产品人员对他们的世界的看法，这听起来可能非常熟悉，这就是我对 MarTech 的定义。
Austin Hay: And then you asked this other question around what exactly the role of somebody in MarTech, and maybe we'll talk about this a little later, but it's such a function of the size and the stage of the company that you're at.
Austin Hay：然后你问了另一个问题，关于 MarTech 中某人的角色到底是什么，也许我们稍后会讨论这个问题，但它与你所在的公司的规模和阶段有关。
At Airbnb, I would say Dmitri who you might've worked with was the MarTech guide.
在 Airbnb，我想说德米特里（Dmitri）是你可能共事过的 MarTech 指南。
He managed a lot of our Airbnb's, the first and third party tools.
他管理着我们的许多 Airbnb、第一方和第三方工具。
Airbnb at that size was, I don't know, maybe 800 people or so.
我不知道那个规模的 Airbnb 大概有 800 人左右。
And so it makes sense to have a function with product and engineering resources.
因此，拥有产品和工程资源的职能是有意义的。
A small startup for example, when I was working with Siqi, we were just talking about this at Runway, there was no such thing as MarTech.
比如说一个小初创公司，当我和思齐一起工作的时候，我们只是在 Runway 谈论这个，当时还没有 MarTech 这样的东西。
There was me and Tanner and Siqi standing up tools and using them because you just have to use the tools to get the job done.
我、Tanner 和 Siqi 都站起来使用工具，因为你只需要使用这些工具就可以完成工作。
And so I would say on the spectrum of what is MarTech, you really have to look at the size and the stages of the company and as you grow you start to see it become more refined or pronounced.
所以我想说，在 MarTech 的范围内，你真的必须看看公司的规模和阶段，随着你的成长，你开始看到它变得更加精致或明显。
Lenny: So, if someone listening to this that has done growth or has a growth PM may be like, oh, but this is sort of what I do.
莱尼：所以，如果有人听了这个，做过成长或有成长型产品经理，可能会说，哦，但这就是我所做的。
What is the difference between someone that just runs growth or has a growth team versus someone that's specifically a MarTech person?
只负责增长或拥有增长团队的人与专门负责 MarTech 的人之间有什么区别？
Austin Hay: At some levels there's maybe no difference.
Austin Hay：在某些层面上可能没有区别。
There's a lot of startups I would say are 30 people or less where you have a growth team and your growth acquisition person is using a CDP to send data to their ad network to run their ads because that's part of their job and maybe they are the MarTech person.
我想说，有很多初创公司只有 30 人或更少，他们有一个增长团队，而你的增长获取人员正在使用 CDP 将数据发送到他们的广告网络来运行他们的广告，因为这是他们工作的一部分，也许他们是 MarTech 人员。
And actually you find a lot of people who consider themselves MarTech professionals now having started in growth or user acquisition roles because they had to just use tools in order to get their jobs done.
事实上，你会发现很多自认为 MarTech 专业人士的人现在已经开始担任增长或用户获取角色，因为他们必须使用工具才能完成工作。
But what I would say is as a company grows and scales, it moves from being a community or village driven aspect of your products to being something that's centrally owned.
但我想说的是，随着公司的成长和规模扩大，它会从社区或村庄驱动的产品转变为集中拥有的产品。
If you're a startup, again, like 30 to 40 people, everybody might chip in to manage your CDP or use Amplitude or build a first party solution on top of those.
如果您是一家初创公司，有 30 到 40 名员工，那么每个人都可能会出资来管理您的 CDP 或使用 Amplitude 或在此基础上构建第一方解决方案。
Austin Hay: It's a mixture of first and third party tools and engineering and product and marketing all work together on it.
Austin Hay：它是第一方和第三方工具的混合体，工程、产品和营销都在它上面协同工作。
That doesn't scale though.
但这并不能扩展。
As you cross a hundred to 200 people, somebody has to be responsible for knowing how data flows through tools, how it's worked, what's the schema.
当你涉及 100 到 200 人时，必须有人负责了解数据如何流经工具、它是如何工作的、模式是什么。
And that's not even considering procurement and legal stuff.
这甚至没有考虑采购和法律问题。
You have infinite liability if you don't manage your contracts well.
如果您不妥善管理合同，您将承担无限责任。
And so usually around I would call it a hundred to 150 people is the critical mass where you can't just have a village approach to systems and tools much like in the IT org, if it was a village approach to SSO businesses would be in a lot of danger.
因此，通常我会称之为 100 到 150 人左右，这是临界质量，你不能像 IT 组织那样对系统和工具采用乡村方法，如果对 SSO 业务采用乡村方法，就会面临很大的危险。
That's where you typically start to see the question of, all right, we need a systems and tools person.
这就是您通常开始看到的问题：好吧，我们需要一个系统和工具人员。
We need somebody to manage these systems and manage that platform.
我们需要有人来管理这些系统并管理该平台。
Austin Hay: And there's a variety of ways it can go.
Austin Hay：有很多种方式可以实现。
I've seen it go just into pure product that's with a product operations org and a product ops person actually will manage a lot of third and first party tools.
我已经看到它只是进入了纯产品，由产品运营组织和产品运营人员实际上将管理许多第三方和第一方工具。
I've seen it go into the IT org, Walmart for example, at a really big scale.
我已经看到它大规模地进入 IT 组织，例如沃尔玛。
They had a MarProd function which was marketing products.
他们有一个 MarProd 职能，即营销产品。
It was product within the marketing function or product that was designed to serve marketing.
它是营销功能中的产品或旨在服务于营销的产品。
And then of course you can have more traditional routes like you can have marketing technology as a single standalone unit or business technology as a standalone unit.
当然，您可以采用更传统的路线，例如您可以将营销技术作为单个独立单元或将业务技术作为独立单元。
Some of this depends too on whether the business is B2C versus B2B.
其中一些还取决于业务是 B2C 还是 B2B。
Classically in a B2B business you see it in rev ops or some types of systems role because you have to serve not only users coming into your funnel, but then the businesses that you're serving afterwards.
通常，在 B2B 业务中，您会在 Rev Ops 或某些类型的系统角色中看到它，因为您不仅必须为进入渠道的用户提供服务，而且还必须为您之后服务的企业提供服务。
Austin Hay: That's also where you typically see tools like Salesforce coming into play and more advanced CRMs.
Austin Hay：这也是您通常会看到 Salesforce 等工具和更先进的 CRM 发挥作用的地方。
In a B2C business, your user funnel is actually really simple acquiring users and you're getting them into your product and then product is taking them over.
在 B2C 业务中，您的用户渠道实际上非常简单，获取用户，您将他们带入您的产品，然后产品接管他们。
There's no additional CRM, so usually your CDP is the source of truth and that's where you might actually see marketing technology fit in with growth a lot more.
没有额外的 CRM，因此通常您的 CDP 是事实来源，您实际上可能会在其中看到营销技术更适合增长。
Just some examples like at Postmates, I worked for them for a long time as a consultant.
举几个例子，比如在 Postmates，我作为顾问为他们工作了很长时间。
Marketing technology was just part of growth.
营销技术只是增长的一部分。
We had a director of growth even before that, Siqi Chen who's the CEO of runway, and I guess you were his first manager as I just learned, he was the first VP of growth and marketing technology was just part of growth and product owned that as a system.
在那之前我们就有了一位增长总监，陈思琪，他是跑道的首席执行官，我猜你是他的第一位经理，正如我刚刚了解到的那样，他是第一位增长副总裁，营销技术只是增长的一部分，产品拥有它作为一个系统。
Austin Hay: As a different example though, at Ramp we're big enough and we're a B2B company, but we have a B2C top of funnel where we try to acquire users and get them to fill out our application to get a credit card.
Austin Hay：作为一个不同的例子，在 Ramp，我们足够大，我们是一家 B2B 公司，但我们有一个 B2C 漏斗顶部，我们试图获取用户并让他们填写我们的申请以获得信用卡。
We have a distinct revenue operations team that's broken into business technology and marketing technology.
我们拥有一支独特的收入运营团队，分为业务技术和营销技术。
So, there's lots of flavors of how it can exist.
因此，它的存在方式有很多种。
I think that's kind of the interesting and fun part of Marketing Tech is that it's not just one single version of the world that you apply to many companies, there's like a million variations that I've seen and they all kind of look to solve the same problem.
我认为营销技术的有趣之处在于，它不仅仅是一个适用于许多公司的世界的单一版本，我见过大约一百万种变体，它们都希望解决同样的问题。
Lenny: So, to make it even more specific and really simple for people to think about what someone in MarTech does, essentially it's using technology and tools to drive growth.
Lenny：所以，为了让人们更具体、更简单地思考 MarTech 中某人所做的事情，本质上是使用技术和工具来推动增长。
Is that a simple way of thinking about this one specific roles?
这是思考这个特定角色的一种简单方式吗？
Austin Hay: Totally.
奥斯汀·海伊：完全可以。
That's exactly right.
完全正确。
And I have this adage I always say, which is tools are just meant to solve problems.
我经常说这句格言，那就是工具只是用来解决问题的。
And the problem set for marketing technologists and business technologists is you focus on the tools.
营销技术人员和业务技术人员面临的问题是您是否关注工具。
Lenny: And so when someone currently say listening doesn't have a MarTech person and they're thinking about, hey, is this a gap we have?
莱尼：所以，当目前有人说倾听没有 MarTech 人员时，他们会想，嘿，这是我们之间的差距吗？
What is that slice of work that a MarTech person would take if they currently have say a growth team or a growth PM that's leading growth and a growth team around them?
如果 MarTech 人员目前有一个领导增长的增长团队或增长 PM 以及围绕他们的增长团队，那么他们会承担哪些工作？
Austin Hay: This comes up all the time, by the way, I talk to businesses every year that have this problem of we have a growth team, we're growing pretty fast.
Austin Hay：顺便说一句，这个问题一直都会出现，我每年都会与有这个问题的企业交谈，我们有一个增长团队，我们增长得很快。
We have a guy that we hired, usually an engineer who stood up all these tools for us.
我们雇佣了一个人，通常是一名工程师，为我们提供所有这些工具。
Or it could be gal too just to be clear, but this person has been here for two years and knows all of our systems really well, but now they're becoming overwhelmed.
或者说清楚也可能是太麻烦了，但这个人已经在这里两年了，非常了解我们所有的系统，但现在他们变得不知所措。
They don't have enough time.
他们没有足够的时间。
The systems are too complex.
这些系统太复杂了。
This is the flavor of story that I hear so often around startups who have hired a great growth person and managed tools and systems, but at some point they reach that point in time where it's no longer manageable by one person or even a set of people.
这是我经常听到的关于初创公司的故事，这些初创公司聘请了一位出色的成长型人才并管理工具和系统，但在某些时候他们达到了一个人甚至一组人无法管理的时间点。
And that slice of works looks like setting up new tools, building new tools on top of them because a lot of times you'll take a third party tool, call it like a segment or an amplitude, and you'll build tooling in your own stack behind it to power something much more advanced.
这部分工作看起来就像设置新工具，在它们之上构建新工具，因为很多时候你会采用第三方工具，将其称为段或振幅，然后你将在自己的堆栈中构建工具，以支持更高级的东西。
Austin Hay: And everybody thinks that marketing technology is just the third party tools, but actually it's designing, architecting and building that stuff on top of your third party tools.
Austin Hay：每个人都认为营销技术只是第三方工具，但实际上它是在第三方工具之上设计、构建和构建这些东西。
That's how you actually have a lot of velocity is thinking about not just build versus buy.
这就是你实际上拥有很大速度的方式，而不仅仅是考虑构建与购买。
It's build and buy now.
现在正在构建和购买。
So, you buy the tool to get 90% of the way there and then you build the cool thing on top with the other 10%.
因此，您购买该工具是为了完成 90% 的工作，然后在剩下的 10% 的基础上构建很酷的东西。
And so that architecting decision usually falls on this person.
因此，架构决策通常落在这个人身上。
The one really unsexy part of it, which I tend to love because it's really high leverage is the contract part.
其中真正不性感的部分是合同部分，但我倾向于喜欢它，因为它的杠杆率非常高。
When you start out as a business, you sign any contract you want with a third party because you're just trying to get going.
当您开始创业时，您可以与第三方签署任何您想要的合同，因为您只是想继续前进。
You have much bigger problems, product market fit, staying alive, runway.
你有更大的问题，产品市场契合度，生存，跑道。
But at some point as you scale and you're starting to make money, now you start to care more about not just how much money you're making but how much money you're losing usually from contrasting SaaS tools.
但在某个时候，当你扩大规模并开始赚钱时，你开始不仅关心自己赚了多少钱，还开始关心通过对比 SaaS 工具通常会损失多少钱。
Austin Hay: And so that's where you start to have more scrutiny around what types of deals are we signing, what are the terms?
奥斯汀·海伊：所以这就是你开始对我们签署的类型的交易进行更多审查的地方，条款是什么？
Do we have liability exposure?
我们有责任风险吗？
What's it going to cost us if we actually scale?
如果我们真的扩大规模，我们会付出什么代价？
And it's great that we have this cool rate at 500 MTUs, what happens when we have a million MPUs?
我们在 500 MTU 下拥有如此酷的速率真是太棒了，当我们拥有 100 万个 MPU 时会发生什么？
So, I worked at mParticle, which was a CDP provider for a long time and I was their VP of growth and part of their SaaS vendor strategy is like, how can we design these cost structures in a way so that at the company scales we make more money?
所以，我在 mParticle 工作了很长时间，这是一家 CDP 提供商，我是他们的增长副总裁，他们的 SaaS 供应商战略的一部分是，我们如何设计这些成本结构，以便在公司规模上我们赚更多的钱？
That's just part of the business.
这只是业务的一部分。
And so if you have that mindset of, well, I'm looking out for the business not just now, but two 30 years in the future, that's where you can also have a lot of value from a systems or marketing technologist.
因此，如果你有这样的心态，嗯，我不仅关注现在的业务，而且关注未来 2-30 年的业务，那么你也可以从系统或营销技术专家那里获得很多价值。
Lenny: Maybe a sign that you should start thinking about a MarTech person on a growth team is what I'm hearing is you're starting to accumulate all these different tools and maybe there's a sense that you could be a lot more efficient in connecting data and the backend infrastructure for how you think about growth and how you drive growth and measure growth.
Lenny：也许你应该开始在增长团队中考虑 MarTech 人员的一个迹象是，我听到的是，你开始积累所有这些不同的工具，也许你会觉得你可以更有效地连接数据和后端基础设施，以便你如何看待增长、如何推动增长和衡量增长。
Austin Hay: Yeah, efficiency and pain.
Austin Hay：是的，效率和痛苦。
I would say pain drives people more.
我想说的是，痛苦更能驱使人们。
It's like, hey, we can't do something because nobody knows this thing.
就像，嘿，我们不能做某事，因为没有人知道这件事。
We can't do something because we don't know the best way to set up these tools or to change these tools or we can't even move forward where a business plan because we're worried that changing our tools might have an impact.
我们无法做某事，因为我们不知道设置这些工具或更改这些工具的最佳方法，或者我们甚至无法推进业务计划，因为我们担心更改我们的工具可能会产生影响。
And usually this is related to email marketing tools and data tools, so like CDPs and folks like Braze interval and just because a lot of times your email is the thing driving recurring customers to come back to your product and use it.
通常这与电子邮件营销工具和数据工具有关，例如 CDP 和 Braze 间隔之类的人，只是因为很多时候您的电子邮件是促使经常性客户回到您的产品并使用它的因素。
So, you can't actually sometimes make the changes you want without understanding how something was set up in the first place.
因此，如果不首先了解某些内容是如何设置的，有时您实际上无法做出所需的更改。
Lenny: You talked about where this person would live in the organization.
莱尼：你谈到了这个人在组织中的住所。
There's all these different places.
有所有这些不同的地方。
I talked about revenue team, maybe the ops team, maybe growth team, marketing team.
我谈到了收入团队，也许是运营团队，也许是增长团队、营销团队。
What's your general advice for who should lead the hiring of this role and also just roughly who should they report to?
对于谁应该领导这个职位的招聘以及他们应该向谁报告，您的一般建议是什么？
Austin Hay: So, I have not to shamelessly plug my Reforge course in the fall, but I'm going to be shamelessly plug my Reforge course in the fall.
Austin Hay：所以，我不必无耻地在秋季插上我的 Reforge 课程，但我会无耻地在秋季插上我的 Reforge 课程。
We have this awesome matrix that we built that shows where this person should live, what they do, who they should report into, and it's all part of the fall course if you want like the deep dive into it.
我们建立了这个很棒的矩阵，它显示了这个人应该住在哪里，他们做什么，他们应该向谁汇报，如果你想深入了解的话，这都是秋季课程的一部分。
There's going to be a section on it, but just the gist of it is I first like to break it down into two dimensions.
将会有一个部分介绍它，但其要点是我首先想将其分解为二维。
First is a B2C company or B2B company.
首先是B2C公司或B2B公司。
And then the second dimension is how important is it to you that this person report into a specific function or not?
第二个维度是这个人是否向某个特定职能部门汇报对您来说有多重要？
So, first with B2C and really maybe a simpler version of that is centralized versus decentralized.
因此，首先是 B2C，实际上可能是集中式与分散式的更简单版本。
So, we have B2C, B2B, centralized, decentralized.
所以，我们有B2C、B2B、集中式、分散式。
In a B2C organization I think actually thinks it's quite simple.
在 B2C 组织中，我认为实际上认为这非常简单。
Austin Hay: Most of the time your tools, your marketing tools are intended to help the growth team.
Austin Hay：大多数时候，你的工具、营销工具都是为了帮助增长团队。
The growth team has a job to be done, which is to spur user growth and tools are just meant to solve the problem.
增长团队有一个工作要做，那就是刺激用户增长，而工具只是为了解决问题。
So, marketing technology's job is to serve the growth team.
所以，营销技术的工作就是为成长团队服务。
Now it obviously serves product and analytics and data, but its key stakeholder and customer is the marketing or growth function.
现在，它显然服务于产品、分析和数据，但其主要利益相关者和客户是营销或增长职能。
And so I think it makes a lot of sense that if you're designing an org under a CMO or a marketing person, you put marketing technology alongside your head of growth or maybe reporting into your head of growth depending on the seniority of the person.
因此，我认为，如果您在首席营销官或营销人员的领导下设计一个组织，那么您可以将营销技术与您的增长主管放在一起，或者根据人员的资历向您的增长主管汇报，这是很有意义的。
And that works quite well.
这效果很好。
The key thing there is you just want to make sure that this marketing technology person is a really strong technical architect or some type of technical operator because they're going to be your representation to the product in engineering orgs.
关键是你只想确保这个营销技术人员是一位真正强大的技术架构师或某种类型的技术操作员，因为他们将成为你在工程组织中产品的代表。
Austin Hay: Now, some people take a little bit of a slight twist on that.
Austin Hay：现在，有些人对此略有不同。
They say, hey, I have a product manager who manages growth that comes from the PM side.
他们说，嘿，我有一位产品经理，负责管理来自 PM 方面的增长。
You could have a platform PM that serves the same thing in MarTech and they're responsible for all internal platform systems.
你可以有一个平台 PM 在 MarTech 中提供同样的服务，他们负责所有内部平台系统。
And then you get into questions of does that belong in product ops or not?
然后你会产生这样的问题：这是否属于产品运营？
And I'm not going to go there.
我不会去那里。
But for B2C, that's the centralized function.
但对于B2C来说，这就是中心化的功能。
For B2C decentralized, what you do instead is you just say like, hey, we're going to have one of these systems, people in every org.
对于 B2C 去中心化来说，你所做的就是说，嘿，我们将拥有这样的系统之一，每个组织中都有人员。
Product is going to have a product ops person and growth is going to have a growth ops person, engineering will have engineering ops, and then we kind of divide the lines based on what tools they're managing.
产品将有一个产品运营人员，增长将有一个增长运营人员，工程将有工程运营，然后我们根据他们管理的工具来划分界限。
I generally don't see that working very well just because as you add more operational people, it just creates more systems.
我通常认为这种方法效果不佳，因为当您添加更多操作人员时，它只会创建更多系统。
Austin Hay: And so unless you're a massive company where you need that type of scale, I think most startups should avoid that decentralized model.
Austin Hay：所以除非你是一家需要这种规模的大公司，否则我认为大多数初创公司应该避免这种分散的模式。
And then for B2B, I think B2B is really messy because not only do you have pure B2B where you're only selling to enterprises, but you have this concept of B2B2C, which is where you're actually selling to users and to businesses sometimes at the top of the funnel and the bottom, but also sometimes at the same time like notion.
然后对于B2B，我认为B2B真的很混乱，因为你不仅有纯粹的B2B，你只向企业销售，而且你有B2B2C的概念，这是你实际上向用户和企业销售的地方，有时在漏斗的顶部和底部，但有时也同时像概念一样。
Notion sells to users so, they have a little growth acquisition funnel at the top, but then they also sell to businesses.
Notion 出售给用户，因此他们在顶部有一个小的增长收购漏斗，但随后他们也出售给企业。
And I find there's really, again, there's two ways decentralized or centralized actually at Ramp we've gone back and forth between the two models.
我再次发现，实际上有两种分散或集中的方式，在 Ramp 中，我们在这两种模型之间来回切换。
We started centralized with the Rev ops group, we decentralized it and put marketing technology into the CMO org and now we're rolling it back into the revenue operations org Largely has to do with who is our customer?
我们开始集中于 Rev Ops 团队，然后将其分散，并将营销技术放入 CMO 组织中，现在我们将其重新纳入收入运营组织中。这在很大程度上与我们的客户是谁有关？
Austin Hay: Whose problems are we solving and where are resources allocated?
Austin Hay：我们正在解决谁的问题以及资源分配在哪里？
Because if you have a decentralized model, then you run the risk of having to have lots of resources decentralized across the team.
因为如果你有一个分散的模型，那么你就面临着必须将大量资源分散到整个团队的风险。
And the question is, can that function actually get work done or resources spread too thin and the priorities on align that it makes it challenging to get work done.
问题是，该职能能否真正完成工作，或者资源分布过于分散，并且优先级不一致，从而使完成工作变得具有挑战性。
And yeah, I would just say especially on B2B, for people out there listening, there is no right answer.
是的，我只想说，尤其是在 B2B 领域，对于那些正在倾听的人来说，没有正确的答案。
And I even think that marketing technology could live in product, it could also live in engineering.
我什至认为营销技术可以存在于产品中，也可以存在于工程中。
Some of this has to do with who is the leader of this function.
其中一些与谁是该职能的领导者有关。
If it blends more towards ops, meaning managing processes and systems, then yeah, maybe you want to decentralize it and keep it in its representative function.
如果它更多地融合到运维中，意味着管理流程和系统，那么是的，也许你想将其去中心化并将其保留在其代表功能中。
If you have a really technical leader who was an architect or a PM that might indicate where that person should actually be leading their team.
如果您有一位真正的技术领导者，他是架构师或产品经理，那么可能会表明该人实际上应该领导他们的团队。
So, it's very case specific, which I know is a terrible answer, but it's the way it is.
所以，这是非常具体的情况，我知道这是一个糟糕的答案，但事实就是如此。
Lenny: Makes total sense.
莱尼：完全有道理。
If someone were to hire someone like in Austin, are you doing the work yourself?
如果有人要雇用像奥斯汀这样的人，你会自己做这项工作吗？
Are you an IC for quite a while or do you end up building a team, say engineers that are building some of this infrastructure, how does that usually play out?
正在构建部分基础设施的工程师表示，您是否已在 IC 工作了一段时间，或者您最终组建了一个团队，这通常会如何进行？
Austin Hay: I think all marketing technologists at some level are ICs.
Austin Hay：我认为所有营销技术人员在某种程度上都是 IC。
I think it's a great job personally, because I get to be an IC and a manager.
我个人认为这是一份很棒的工作，因为我可以成为一名 IC 和一名经理。
You have to be an IC in that, you are the most senior technical expert on all first party and third party systems.
你必须是一名 IC，因为你是所有第一方和第三方系统最资深的技术专家。
So, you have to know really well how third party tools work and you don't know that without doing the work yourself.
因此，您必须非常了解第三方工具的工作原理，而如果您自己不做这些工作，您就不会知道这一点。
So, I do find that some of the best marketing technologists have at least at some point in the last five years, been an operator and expert managing tools and systems.
因此，我确实发现一些最好的营销技术专家至少在过去五年的某个时刻成为了管理工具和系统的操作员和专家。
And then usually the teams are small and super cross-functional.
而且通常团队规模很小，而且跨职能程度很高。
Austin Hay: So, what I would say is more important to look for than how many people has this person managed is how well can they manage upward, laterally and downward because they're going to have to go talk to the head of rev ops if they want to change something in Salesforce, they're going to have to talk to the VP of product if they want to make a big platform change that touches something else.
Austin Hay：所以，我想说的是，比这个人管理了多少人更重要的是他们向上、横向和向下管理的能力如何，因为如果他们想要改变 Salesforce 中的某些内容，他们将必须与 Rev Ops 主管交谈；如果他们想要进行涉及其他内容的重大平台更改，他们将必须与产品副总裁交谈。
They're going to be relying constantly on data resources from their head of data.
他们将不断依赖数据主管的数据资源。
So, I think that this person, the secret sauce is more of how good of a cross-functional team player are they.
所以，我认为这个人的秘诀更多在于他们是多么优秀的跨职能团队成员。
I almost view them like a true quarterback every says people are quarterbacks.
我几乎把他们视为真正的四分卫，每个人都说人们是四分卫。
But really marketing technology because it lives between so many departments, it plays that role of having to call plays and pull on different departments.
但真正的营销技术是因为它存在于如此多的部门之间，它扮演着必须调用剧本并拉动不同部门的角色。
Lenny: And because it sounds like you don't have a team to do some of these things and you need to convince people to help you out.
莱尼：因为听起来你没有团队来做这些事情，你需要说服人们来帮助你。
Austin Hay: Totally.
奥斯汀·海伊：完全可以。
Yeah.
是的。
It's a game of persuasion and salesmanship.
这是一场说服和推销的游戏。
You have to convince people why the problems are big and especially as you get bigger, a lot of the decisions or problems of marketing technology are not about rapidly making a huge transformation.
你必须让人们相信为什么问题这么大，尤其是当你变得更大时，营销技术的许多决策或问题并不是要迅速做出巨大的转变。
It's slow transformation that can have big implications.
这种缓慢的转变可能会产生重大影响。
I'll just give you one example.
我只给你举一个例子。
Like lots of big companies I talked to have two CDPs or two attribution tools and it's like there's the cost problem.
就像我采访过的许多大公司一样，它们拥有两个 CDP 或两个归因工具，这似乎存在成本问题。
How do we get rid of this secondary tool to reduce the cost?
我们如何摆脱这个辅助工具来降低成本呢？
Maybe it's a million dollars, but there's also the complexity and decision-making problem.
也许是一百万美元，但也存在复杂性和决策问题。
How do we make people move and work faster by not having the complexity of asking, which tool do I use in such a simple decision?
我们如何让人们更快地行动和工作，而不需要复杂地询问“在如此简单的决定中我应该使用哪种工具？”
Austin Hay: And then you get to a really big scale at Walmart where your problem isn't even.
Austin Hay：然后你在沃尔玛就达到了一个非常大的规模，你的问题就不再是问题了。
How do we consolidate the stack and make it so tools that are helpful for people, but how do we prevent from getting back to that state?
我们如何整合堆栈并使其成为对人们有帮助的工具，但我们如何防止回到那种状态？
How do we put safeguards in place to make sure people actually have access to the tools that they want and can solve their problems?
我们如何采取保障措施来确保人们确实能够获得他们想要的工具并能够解决他们的问题？
But we're not introducing duplicative tech into our organization because a really well-known, sorry to put SaaS vendors on the spot here, but well-known SaaS vendor plays the land and expand motion.
但我们不会在我们的组织中引入重复的技术，因为一个非常知名的 SaaS 供应商在这里占据了主导地位，但知名的 SaaS 供应商正在发挥作用并进行扩张。
You get in small and then you grow your business.
你先做小生意，然后发展你的业务。
Well, that's a distinct problem for businesses that are trying to control costs and simplify the way the world works.
对于那些试图控制成本和简化世界运作方式的企业来说，这是一个明显的问题。
Lenny: I want to talk about tools that you recommend and use most often, but I'm thinking maybe we start with a different question, which is around just what does your day look like as a MarTech person?
Lenny：我想谈谈您最常推荐和使用的工具，但我想也许我们可以从一个不同的问题开始，即您作为 MarTech 人员的一天是什么样的？
What are you doing day to day and from the lens of your growth PM listening or a leader listening and what could this person do for me and how much leverage can I get if I were to find a MarTech person?
从你的成长 PM 倾听或领导者倾听的角度来看，你每天在做什么？这个人能为我做什么？如果我要找到 MarTech 人员，我能获得多少影响力？
Austin Hay: There's half of marketing technology, which I would call somewhat administrative and high leverage.
Austin Hay：营销技术有一半，我称之为行政性和高杠杆性。
It's managing PI requests and PI technology, managing administrative stuff like contracts and admittance to tools and permissions.
它管理 PI 请求和 PI 技术，管理合同等管理内容以及工具和权限的准入。
This is all at a big company scale.
这都是大公司规模的情况。
You probably don't do this when you're a small company, but that stuff matters because give you an example, you give edit access to somebody who wants HubSpot and they send a fake email test to a million people and now you're on Twitter being embarrassed as a company.
当你是一家小公司时，你可能不会这样做，但这件事很重要，因为给你一个例子，你向想要 HubSpot 的人授予编辑权限，他们向一百万人发送了虚假电子邮件测试，而现在你在 Twitter 上作为一家公司感到尴尬。
It's like-
这就像——
Austin Hay: It hasn't happen to me.
Austin Hay：这没有发生在我身上。
But I've gotten the emails from certain companies where it's like, this is a test and it came from an intern.
但我收到了某些公司发来的电子邮件，内容是，这是一个测试，来自实习生。
Austin Hay: You're like, that's just permissioning gone wrong.
Austin Hay：你会说，这只是许可出了问题。
So, I think a big part of the role is designing systems that are automated to handle that stuff because ideally you don't want to be sitting around in your computer all day clicking one conductor request to approve permissions.
因此，我认为这个角色的很大一部分是设计自动处理这些事情的系统，因为理想情况下，您不想整天坐在计算机上单击一个指挥请求来批准权限。
You should look at the role, look at the experience of tenure and department and make a decision about which accesses you get.
您应该查看该角色，查看任期和部门的经验，并决定您获得哪些访问权限。
So, automating that is a big part of my job.
因此，自动化是我工作的重要组成部分。
The manual part of my job, which I feel like is actually really fun, is again the designing systems and contracts for the future.
我觉得我工作中的手动部分实际上非常有趣，那就是为未来设计系统和合同。
So, it's about how do we design a system and create a vision and persuade people about what our system technology can look like over the course of one to two years, the time span that I usually look at.
所以，这是关于我们如何设计一个系统，创造一个愿景，并说服人们我们的系统技术在一到两年（我通常关注的时间跨度）内会是什么样子。
And then how do you change state from then to now?
那么从那时到现在你如何改变状态呢？
Some of that has to bring in financials and contracts.
其中一些必须带来财务和合同。
That's where this plays a role.
这就是它发挥作用的地方。
What are our contract terms today?
我们今天的合同条款是什么？
What's the price we're paying?
我们付出的代价是多少？
What is our growth going to be?
我们的成长将会怎样？
Austin Hay: Can we build a financial model to show how much it's going to cost us both in terms of operational efficiency and actual real fixed and variable costs to end up in that state?
Austin Hay：我们能否建立一个财务模型来显示我们在运营效率以及实际固定和可变成本方面要付出多少成本才能最终达到这种状态？
And then how do I create a graceful argument to persuade people that we should spend engineering time and resources?
然后我如何创造一个优雅的论点来说服人们我们应该花费工程时间和资源？
And usually it nets out pretty clear.
通常情况下结果非常清楚。
It's like if it's less than a certain amount, how do you justify spending any engineering time on it?
就像如果它少于一定数量，你如何证明在它上面花费任何工程时间是合理的？
You have to wait for the problem to become big enough.
你必须等待问题变得足够大。
But then back to your other point around how do I give growth managers out there something useful.
但回到你的另一个观点，关于我如何为增长经理提供有用的东西。
I would say the big thing that people forget in an early stage of a company's lifetime is that the company will outlast you, hopefully.
我想说的是，人们在公司生命周期的早期阶段忘记的一件大事是，希望这家公司会比你更长久。
You will not be the last growth manager unless the company fails.
除非公司失败，否则你不会是最后一个增长经理。
So, I tend to take a little bit of a different approach than most, which is like I think you should always be thinking about the future.
因此，我倾向于采取与大多数人不同的方法，就像我认为你应该始终思考未来一样。
Austin Hay: That doesn't necessarily mean you should make design choices that over index towards the future so much that you miss product market fit or you make poor product decisions.
Austin Hay：这并不一定意味着您应该做出过于面向未来的设计选择，以至于您错过产品市场契合度或做出糟糕的产品决策。
But when you set up tools and you pick tools and you implement them, you should be thinking, what's going to happen a year from now if I don't change anything?
但是，当您设置工具、选择工具并实施它们时，您应该思考，如果我不改变任何东西，一年后会发生什么？
And is this going to be a catastrophic situation or not?
这是否会成为灾难性的情况？
And then try to take actions to mitigate that risk.
然后尝试采取行动来减轻这种风险。
Some examples are like if it's $2,000 to get SSO and two days to set it up and that prevents you from having a security problem where somebody downloads all your users, it seems like a great investment.
例如，如果花费 2,000 美元获得 SSO 并用两天时间进行设置，并且可以防止您遇到有人下载您所有用户的安全问题，那么这似乎是一笔巨大的投资。
Austin Hay: And guess what?
奥斯汀·海伊：你猜怎么着？
Over time, if you don't do that, you're going to eventually have to hire an IT person to go and set up SSF for all your tools.
随着时间的推移，如果您不这样做，您最终将不得不雇用一名 IT 人员来为您的所有工具设置 SSF。
So, some of this is more of just being a good steward about managing first and third party tools with an eye towards the future.
因此，其中一些更多的是成为管理第一方和第三方工具并着眼于未来的好管家。
It's always a trade-off, right?
这总是一个权衡，对吧？
Because the more time you spend when you're building product early in a company's lifetime, that time could be spent on other things.
因为在公司生命周期的早期构建产品时花费的时间越多，这些时间就可以花在其他事情上。
So, if you waste it managing third party tools or setting up correctly, then maybe you miss out on a key product feature.
因此，如果您浪费时间管理第三方工具或正确设置，那么您可能会错过一个关键的产品功能。
So, I think it is a tough balance to strike.
因此，我认为这是一个很难达到的平衡。
Lenny: Coming back to the different kind of roles within the growth umbrella, if someone has someone leading paid growth let's say, and they're just like a paid growth person, do you also find a MarTech person to work alongside this person?
Lenny：回到增长伞中的不同类型的角色，如果有人领导带薪增长，那么他们就像一个带薪增长的人，你还会找到一个 MarTech 人员与这个人一起工作吗？
How connected would you be to someone that's just responsible for paid growth?
您与只负责付费增长的人的关系如何？
Austin Hay: Maybe a key differentiator too.
Austin Hay：也许也是一个关键的差异化因素。
We didn't talk about this in the beginning, but there's marketing technology and marketing operations.
我们一开始没有讲这个，但是有营销技术和营销运营。
So, in my mind, this is just my own kind of mental framework is marketing technology has tech in it.
所以，在我看来，这只是我自己的一种心理框架，营销技术中有技术。
So, it's usually an engineer or somebody with an engineering background doing that function.
因此，通常由工程师或具有工程背景的人员来执行该功能。
Marketing operations is usually not always technical.
营销运作通常并不总是技术性的。
Maybe a systems analyst or business analyst could be somebody really, really smart, but they may not have an engineering background.
也许系统分析师或业务分析师可能非常非常聪明，但他们可能没有工程背景。
So, I think that's a key distinction too.
所以，我认为这也是一个关键的区别。
And you typically see that in B2B where you'll have mar ops function, which is setting up campaigns, sending email blasts, debugging, doing analytics work, SQL queries, all semi-technical work but not engineering based.
您通常会看到，在 B2B 中，您将拥有 Mar Ops 功能，即设置营销活动、发送电子邮件群发、调试、进行分析工作、SQL 查询，所有这些都是半技术性工作，但不是基于工程的。
So, in my mind when we talk about marketing technology, I'm really thinking it as an engineering based role and even by background, I'm not a software engineer, but I was a civil engineer and I learned how to program and I went through a bunch of coding to get there.
所以，在我看来，当我们谈论营销技术时，我真的认为它是一个基于工程的角色，甚至从背景来看，我不是一名软件工程师，但我是一名土木工程师，我学会了如何编程，并且我经历了一堆编码才能到达那里。
Austin Hay: So, that's my way into the engineering world.
Austin Hay：这就是我进入工程世界的方式。
And you typically find that a lot with marketing technologists in particular is they either are software engineers or they've gotten enough experience to moonlight as software engineers.
您通常会发现，尤其是营销技术人员，他们要么是软件工程师，要么已经获得了足够的经验来兼职软件工程师。
And so we get to this problem set of a user acquisition person.
这样我们就解决了用户获取人员的问题。
How would they rely on a marketing technologist?
他们如何依赖营销技术专家？
Well, I think the most superhuman user acquisition people out there are engineers and they don't need a marketing technologist because they set up the tool themself.
嗯，我认为最超人的用户获取人员是工程师，他们不需要营销技术专家，因为他们自己设置了工具。
They know how the paid campaign runs and they just do it all.
他们知道付费活动是如何进行的，而且他们只是做这一切。
And you'll typically find these super humans at small startups where the engineer is just told by the co-founder, hey, go figure out how Facebook ads work.
你通常会在小型初创公司中找到这些超级人类，联合创始人只是告诉工程师，嘿，去弄清楚 Facebook 广告是如何运作的。
And superhuman is born.
超人诞生了。
More often though that doesn't happen.
但更常见的是，这种情况不会发生。
Or those people once they do it once, they never want to do it again.
或者那些人一旦做了一次，就再也不想做第二次了。
So, you'll typically find the role split and that's the natural thing that happens.
因此，您通常会发现角色分裂，这是很自然的事情。
Austin Hay: As you scale, you divide responsibility and you'll see you'll have the person who's responsible for bidding and acquiring users and paying down those campaign costs.
Austin Hay：随着规模的扩大，你会划分责任，你会发现有人负责竞价和获取用户并支付这些活动成本。
Then you have the person who's in charge of how does it all work?
那么有专人负责这一切如何运作吗？
How do we get this thing to actually run?
我们如何让这个东西真正运行起来？
And that's very similar to what we have at Ramp.
这与我们在 Ramp 的情况非常相似。
We have an amazing user acquisition team.
我们拥有一支出色的用户获取团队。
I know Sri Batchu was on here a while back.
我知道 Sri Batchu 不久前就在这里。
He hired a guy named Cody Morgan at Ramp who has a user acquisition team.
他在 Ramp 聘请了一位名叫 Cody Morgan 的人，他拥有一个用户获取团队。
And the way to think of it is, my job is to help support them in running all their campaign needs and when they have a directive from the CEO that says we need to improve CAC or change any of our metrics, it's my job to partner with them to help them do that.
思考的方式是，我的工作是帮助支持他们满足所有竞选需求，当他们收到首席执行官的指示，说我们需要改进 CAC 或改变我们的任何指标时，我的工作就是与他们合作，帮助他们做到这一点。
And actually one of the coolest and most fun projects that we worked on early when I joined Ramped is we were optimizing.
事实上，当我加入 Ramped 时，我们早期从事的最酷、最有趣的项目之一就是我们正在优化。
Austin Hay: We're trying to get top of funnel data all the way down to the bottom of the funnel and tie it with opportunity data so we could send that back to the ad network so that rather than optimizing your campaign off of when a user clicks a button on the website, you're actually optimizing it off of did the opportunity occur and what was the kind of ideal value for that opportunity?
Austin Hay：我们正在尝试从渠道顶部一直到渠道底部，并将其与机会数据联系起来，以便我们可以将其发送回广告网络，这样，您实际上是根据机会是否发生以及该机会的理想价值是什么来优化广告活动，而不是根据用户点击网站上的按钮来优化广告活动？
And you're sending that data as a synthetic event back to Facebook and all those guys.
您将这些数据作为合成事件发送回 Facebook 和所有这些人。
So, it can be really cool and super advanced stuff depending how deep on the funnel you get and how complex your business is.
因此，它可能是非常酷且超级先进的东西，具体取决于您的渠道有多深以及您的业务有多复杂。
Lenny: So, you're generally not running campaigns of your own unsafe Facebook or AdWords.
Lenny：所以，您通常不会运行自己不安全的 Facebook 或 AdWords 的广告活动。
You're mostly as a MarTech person supporting people who are doing that.
你主要是作为 MarTech 人员来支持这样做的人。
Austin Hay: Helping them use tools and technologies to do it.
Austin Hay：帮助他们使用工具和技术来做到这一点。
Lenny: Great.
莱尼：太好了。
Do people give you goals?
人们给你目标吗？
Are you responsible for growth goals of your own?
您对自己的成长目标负责吗？
And in general, are MarTech people, should they have goals and growth goals on their plate or are they just there to support people who do?
总的来说，MarTech 人员是否应该有自己的目标和增长目标，还是只是为了支持那些有目标和增长目标的人？
Austin Hay: Oh, that's a great question and I would like, maybe this is at the end of the podcast, we ask people about this because I would love to know what is a better version of goaling?
奥斯汀·海伊：哦，这是一个很好的问题，我想，也许这是在播客的结尾，我们向人们询问这个问题，因为我很想知道什么是更好的进球版本？
So, there's two ways that I've thought of it.
所以，我想到了两种方法。
One is my goals are directly tied to the people I'm serving.
一是我的目标与我所服务的人直接相关。
So, if user acquisition has, I mean we do, we have a growth goal and we have a CAC goal at Ramp.
所以，如果用户获取有，我的意思是我们有，我们有一个增长目标，我们在 Ramp 有一个 CAC 目标。
So, my goals are tied to them, so I'm going to help make sure that that is achieved, but then there's also a cost and efficiency goal that I internally think is valuable.
因此，我的目标与它们息息相关，所以我将帮助确保实现这一目标，但还有一个我内部认为有价值的成本和效率目标。
Whether or not the business thinks it is valuable, it doesn't really matter.
企业是否认为它有价值，其实并不重要。
I come from a sales background and I like to run lean and efficient teams, and so I'm always thinking to myself, how much were the tools when I came in, how much are they now?
我有销售背景，我喜欢管理精干高效的团队，所以我总是在想，我进来时的工具有多少，现在有多少？
Austin Hay: Have I set us up for success so that as we grow, our cost per user or cost per seat comes down and how much more efficient are we because of that?
Austin Hay：我是否已经为我们的成功做好了准备，以便随着我们的发展，我们的每用户成本或每个席位成本会下降，我们的效率会因此提高多少？
The ideal world is that you actually are growing as a business making more money, hiring more people, acquiring more users, and your total cost of tooling per person goes down.
理想的世界是，您的企业实际上正在成长，赚更多的钱，雇用更多的人，获得更多的用户，并且每人的工具总成本下降。
That's like the dream.
这就像梦一样。
And there's lots of ways you can build that financial model, but I mean that's what I think most marketing technology leaders should strive for is to make sure that they're controlling costs over time because most businesses don't.
建立这种财务模型的方法有很多，但我的意思是，我认为大多数营销技术领导者应该努力确保他们随着时间的推移控制成本，因为大多数企业没有这样做。
There can be some goals that are discreet in nature that are not cost-efficient, but more like net capability related.
可能存在一些本质上谨慎的目标，这些目标不具有成本效益，但更像与净能力相关。
So, it's like, hey, we want to design a first party system that's world-class that achieves these three goals, right?
所以，就像，嘿，我们想设计一个世界级的第一方系统来实现这三个目标，对吧？
Maybe you want to incorporate artificial intelligence into some part of our product platform and incorporate third party tools.
也许您想将人工智能纳入我们产品平台的某些部分并纳入第三方工具。
Austin Hay: And those are more like discrete product goals.
Austin Hay：这些更像是离散的产品目标。
In the same way that a business might launch an external product goal to launch a feature, they sometimes also might have internal product goals, clean up our revenue operations systems, make our email marketing system better.
就像企业可能会启动外部产品目标来启动功能一样，他们有时也可能有内部产品目标，清理我们的收入运营系统，使我们的电子邮件营销系统变得更好。
In particular, email marketing is one I see come often a lot with small businesses and even medium-sized businesses where they'll have picked a tool at the start of the company's lifecycle and as the company has grown, they've outgrown that tool.
特别是，我发现电子邮件营销经常出现在小型企业甚至中型企业中，他们会在公司生命周期的开始时选择一种工具，随着公司的发展，他们已经不再需要该工具了。
They need to move to a Braze or Marketo.
他们需要转向 Braze 或 Marketo。
And so there'll be a big six-month initiative to say, we just got to switch.
因此，将会有一个为期六个月的重大举措，我们必须做出改变。
That's the goal.
这就是目标。
We have to safely get off this small tool to a much bigger, more complex tool that's going to cost us more.
我们必须安全地摆脱这个小工具，转向更大、更复杂的工具，这会让我们花费更多。
It's a lot more complex, but we need to do it without losing money.
这要复杂得多，但我们需要在不损失金钱的情况下做到这一点。
That's usually the job of a MarTech person in some type of change transformation effort.
这通常是 MarTech 人员在某种类型的变革转型工作中的工作。
Lenny: Perfect segue to where I wanted to go, which is tooling and your recommendations and favorite tools.
Lenny：完美地过渡到我想去的地方，即工具以及您的推荐和最喜欢的工具。
And so maybe we start with just what do you find as a good starting tool stack for people starting to think about MarTech and basically growth, and then what does it end up being generally?
因此，也许我们可以从您认为对于开始思考 MarTech 和基本增长的人们来说一个好的起始工具堆栈开始，然后它最终会是什么？
Austin Hay: In terms of stack, again, we think about B2B and B2C.
Austin Hay：就堆栈而言，我们再次考虑 B2B 和 B2C。
B2C I would say the stack was largely solved from 2017 to 2020.
B2C 我想说，从 2017 年到 2020 年，堆栈已基本解决。
We've had like a renaissance of the data architecture, so what I'm going to do is I'm dig through B2C then and now and then we can go B2B then and now.
我们经历了数据架构的复兴，所以我要做的就是深入挖掘 B2C 的过去和现在，然后我们可以转向 B2B 的过去和现在。
Austin Hay: Okay.
奥斯汀·海伊：好的。
So, B2C, if you back up to 2016, 2017, you have segment and the rise of the CDP.
所以，B2C，如果你回到 2016 年、2017 年，你就会看到细分市场和 CDP 的崛起。
Consumer based businesses have to collect a user and tie a bunch of data to them and then track their actions to send it out to performance ad networks and email marketing tools and product analytics tools.
基于消费者的企业必须收集用户并将大量数据与他们联系起来，然后跟踪他们的行为，将其发送到效果广告网络、电子邮件营销工具和产品分析工具。
And so you would see this very commoditized stack.
所以你会看到这个非常商品化的堆栈。
It would be like CDP in the middle bunch of tools connected.
它就像处于连接工具中间的 CDP。
The promise of the CDP was you integrate one SDK, your engineers don't hate you send all the data to the other tools you can create audiences.
CDP 的承诺是您集成一个 SDK，您的工程师不会讨厌您将所有数据发送到您可以创建受众的其他工具。
Austin Hay: Great.
奥斯汀·海伊： 太好了。
Lasted for a long time.
持续了很长时间。
The thing about it though that I think really changed around 2020 is that the cost of ownership of warehousing became much cheaper.
但我认为 2020 年左右真正发生的变化是仓储的拥有成本变得便宜得多。
And so 2021, you start getting to the place where it actually makes a lot of sense and is really easy to store all your data in a warehouse model all your data in the warehouse, and to do it without needing a vast data team.
因此，到 2021 年，您开始到达一个真正有意义的地方，并且非常容易将所有数据存储在仓库模型中，并且无需庞大的数据团队即可完成此操作。
I would say Airbnb was probably doing all this well before anybody else was, but they had the main advantage of a lot of money and a lot of resources.
我想说，Airbnb 在这一切方面可能比其他任何人都做得更好，但他们的主要优势是大量资金和大量资源。
So, now come 2020, it's cost-efficient to have a data team with your own warehouse and to manage data centrally in something like Snowflake.
因此，现在到了 2020 年，拥有一个拥有自己的仓库的数据团队并在 Snowflake 之类的工具中集中管理数据是经济高效的。
So, now this question is like, okay, well we got to get data into the warehouse, but how do we move data around is totally different.
所以，现在的问题是，好吧，我们必须将数据放入仓库，但是我们如何移动数据是完全不同的。
Austin Hay: And that's what really led to the rise of reverse ETLs.
Austin Hay：这才是反向 ETL 兴起的真正原因。
So, now you can actually build your own CDP and lots of businesses already have, I'm consulting with a well known financial trading platform a couple of months back, and they have a CDP, they have all this internal data in their warehouse, but they have not been able to activate it because it's pretty old architecture.
所以，现在你实际上可以构建自己的 CDP，很多企业已经拥有了，几个月前我咨询了一家知名的金融交易平台，他们有一个 CDP，他们的仓库中拥有所有这些内部数据，但他们无法激活它，因为它是相当旧的架构。
Everything's batch based end of the day.
一切都是基于批次的。
What they need is a reverse ETL.
他们需要的是反向 ETL。
They don't need to take that data and just get it out into the world.
他们不需要获取这些数据并将其发布到世界各地。
So, they need the reverse ETL component or the transformation component of a CDP.
因此，他们需要反向 ETL 组件或 CDP 的转换组件。
And so I'd say now today when we think about B2C businesses, you can either go to the traditional route, buy CDP, hook up all your tools, third party.
所以我今天要说的是，当我们考虑 B2C 业务时，您可以走传统路线，购买 CDP，连接所有第三方工具。
Austin Hay: I think that's a great move if you do not have a lot of engineering resources because you're not spending a ton of time and energy on a warehouse and all the modeling that comes with it, you're just spending time to implement one SDK.
Austin Hay：我认为，如果您没有大量的工程资源，那么这是一个很好的举措，因为您没有在仓库以及随之而来的所有建模上花费大量时间和精力，您只需花时间来实现一个 SDK。
I think if simplicity is the name of the game for your business, CDP, Centralized Stack, great move.
我认为，如果简单性是您企业的游戏名称，那么 CDP、集中式堆栈就是一项伟大的举措。
If you are an advanced engineering culture and you are cutting edge and you're going to do a bunch of modeling in DBT and you already have Snowflake, you should move towards a model of using a reverse ETL.
如果您拥有先进的工程文化，并且处于领先地位，并且要在 DBT 中进行大量建模，并且您已经拥有 Snowflake，那么您应该转向使用反向 ETL 的模型。
What it means is that there's a way to get your data into the warehouse and then how you activate it is completely independent from the CDP.
这意味着有一种方法可以将您的数据放入仓库，然后您如何激活它完全独立于 CDP。
And so what that means is actually you can have lots of different variations of the stack.
因此，这实际上意味着您可以拥有许多不同的堆栈变体。
Austin Hay: You could use Amplitude as your CDP, collect all your data, stream it into Snowflake.
Austin Hay：您可以使用 Amplitude 作为 CDP，收集所有数据，并将其流式传输到 Snowflake 中。
They actually now have an integration with Snowflake that lets you feed data directly out of Snowflake, and then you could use a reverse ETL to just pipe that data wherever you want.
实际上，他们现在与 Snowflake 集成，让您可以直接从 Snowflake 提供数据，然后您可以使用反向 ETL 将该数据传送到任何您想要的地方。
There's a really good section though, again, sorry to self aggrandize, but there's a really good section in the Reforge module this fall that talks about what happens when you have multiple ways to move data.
不过，再次抱歉自我夸大，有一个非常好的部分，但是今年秋天的 Reforge 模块中有一个非常好的部分，讨论了当您有多种方式移动数据时会发生什么。
You buy amplitude for your CDP and you're moving data to your warehouse.
您为 CDP 购买振幅，并将数据移至仓库。
Amplitude is a bunch of integrations, but you also have reverse ETL and you can move data out of your warehouse.
Amplitude 是一系列集成，但您也有反向 ETL，并且可以将数据移出仓库。
Austin Hay: Where do you choose?
奥斯汀·海伊：你选择哪里？
And I would say a lot of businesses get in trouble when they don't have a methodology or a system for how and when to move data from one place to the other, so they just do it haphazardly, right?
我想说，当很多企业没有一种方法或系统来确定如何以及何时将数据从一个地方移动到另一个地方时，他们就会遇到麻烦，所以他们只是随意地这样做，对吗？
And the key in systems management is you want to design a process for doing it some type of waterfall or mental model for when it makes sense to move data directly from Amplitude, which is the ingestion point of your data stream or from the warehouse where you can model it and make it better.
系统管理的关键是，您想要设计一个流程来执行某种类型的瀑布或心智模型，以便在有意义时直接从 Amplitude 移动数据，Amplitude 是数据流的摄取点，或者可以从仓库中进行建模并使其变得更好。
I think the key is just having a philosophy and approach.
我认为关键在于有一个哲学和方法。
There's not really one answer, but that's all B2C.
确实没有一个答案，但这都是 B2C 的。
So, B2B I would say ...
所以，B2B 我会说...
Yeah, go ahead.
是的，继续吧。
Lenny: Before we move on to that one, you mentioned reverse ETLs.
Lenny：在我们继续讨论这一问题之前，您提到了反向 ETL。
What are some examples of products that are reverse ETLs so that people can look them up?
有哪些产品是反向 ETL 以便人们可以查找的示例？
Austin Hay: Yeah, I personally think the reverse ETL is a capability.
Austin Hay：是的，我个人认为反向ETL是一种能力。
It's the ability to move data from a warehouse to a tool.
它将数据从仓库移动到工具的能力。
So, technically speaking, you'll find reverse ETLs in CDPs and as standalone products.
因此，从技术上讲，您会在 CDP 中以及作为独立产品找到反向 ETL。
Segment has a reverse ETL function they just launched, and Particle has a reverse ETL function they just launched.
Segment有他们刚刚推出的反向ETL功能，Particle有他们刚刚推出的反向ETL功能。
Rudder Stack, which is a CDP has always had a reverse ETL function where you can take warehouse data and move it to different cloud infrastructure.
Rudder Stack 是一个 CDP，始终具有反向 ETL 功能，您可以在其中获取仓库数据并将其移动到不同的云基础设施。
Then there are distinct standalone products.
然后还有独特的独立产品。
Census, which was back Bay 16Z and Hightouch are the two standalone reverse ETLs.
Bay 16Z 的 Census 和 Hightouch 是两个独立的反向 ETL。
And like I said, I'm an investor in Hightouch, love their work, we use them at Ramp.
就像我说的，我是 Hightouch 的投资者，热爱他们的工作，我们在 Ramp 中使用它们。
At the end of the day, you should pick tools because they help solve problems, not because of anything else.
归根结底，您选择工具应该是因为它们有助于解决问题，而不是因为其他原因。
So, we can come back to that if you want.
所以，如果你愿意的话，我们可以回到这个话题。
Lenny: Wonderful.
莱尼：太棒了。
Great, great.
太棒了，太棒了。
Yeah, that was perfect.
是的，那太完美了。
Keep going.
继续前进。
Austin Hay: Okay.
奥斯汀·海伊：好的。
Yeah, so we talked about B2B, or sorry, B2C.
是的，所以我们讨论了 B2B，或者抱歉，B2C。
B2B, I probably don't have as much history as say people who survived the dot-com crash in 2008.
B2B，我可能没有 2008 年互联网泡沫破裂后幸存下来的人所说的那么多历史。
I started really my career in B2B in 2014, so I'll share a little bit of my experience and I'm just hopefully just saying this because listeners may chime in and be like, oh man, this guy doesn't know what the hell he's talking about, which is totally fair game.
我在 2014 年开始了 B2B 职业生涯，所以我会分享一些我的经验，我只是希望只是这么说，因为听众可能会插话，说，天啊，这家伙到底不知道他在说什么，这完全是公平的游戏。
So, 2014 though, I remember working at Branch, I was working for our COO Mike Molinet, who's now at this really cool company called Thena, but at the time I was working for Mike, and as we talked about before, oftentimes growth stacks just appear because you're given a challenge.
所以，2014 年，我记得在 Branch 工作时，我为我们的首席运营官 Mike Molinet 工作，他现在在一家名为 Thena 的非常酷的公司工作，但当时我为 Mike 工作，正如我们之前谈到的，通常增长堆栈只是因为你面临挑战而出现。
And I remember sitting in this tiny room with Mike.
我记得和迈克坐在这个小房间里。
We were over in Palo Alto, right off the fills in Palo Alto in this tiny room.
我们在帕洛阿尔托，就在帕洛阿尔托的这个小房间里。
Austin Hay: It was boiling in the room like so hot we were sweating and we were mapping out on a whiteboard how we would design our first version of our system, like how we capture leads, how we get them into Salesforce, how we would email them with a little tool called Outreach at the time, that was still a startup.
Austin Hay：房间里很热，热得我们都出汗了，我们在白板上规划了如何设计我们系统的第一个版本，比如如何捕获潜在客户，如何将他们引入 Salesforce，如何使用一个名为 Outreach 的小工具向他们发送电子邮件，当时那还是一个初创公司。
And I'll send it to you after this if you want to show them to viewers, but it's so MVP, but it still models what a lot of people have today.
如果你想向观众展示它们，我会在这之后将其发送给你，但它是如此 MVP，但它仍然模仿了很多人今天拥有的东西。
There's some ingestion point for your data.
您的数据有一些摄入点。
There's Salesforce, there's some type of outbounding tool, there's an enrichment tool, and then a lot of other Jerry rig stuff hooked up to Salesforce.
有 Salesforce，有某种类型的出站工具，有丰富工具，还有许多其他连接到 Salesforce 的 Jerry 设备。
And for the most part, that's how B2B still exists today as you have Salesforce and then the whole world and the universe revolves around Salesforce.
在大多数情况下，这就是 B2B 今天仍然存在的方式，因为有了 Salesforce，然后整个世界和宇宙都围绕着 Salesforce 运转。
You just have more advanced tools, you have Gom and stuff like that.
你只是拥有更先进的工具，你有 Gom 之类的东西。
Austin Hay: I think the big change though, and what is really fascinating and has been fun to watch is in the last two, three years, you now have this whole rise of B2B2C, which takes all the complexity of the top of funnel user acquisition system and stuffs it right alongside your CRM and how you build an elegant system there in that space, I think is one of the most complicated and intricate pieces of being a MarTech person today.
Austin Hay：我认为最大的变化是在过去的两三年里，真正令人着迷且有趣的是，现在 B2B2C 的整体崛起，它解决了漏斗顶部用户获取系统的所有复杂性，并将其与 CRM 一起填充，以及如何在该空间中构建优雅的系统，我认为这是当今 MarTech 人员最复杂和复杂的部分之一。
And some of it just has to do with the data language.
其中一些只与数据语言有关。
Like all these B2C tools were designed with two objects, a user and an event.
与所有这些 B2C 工具一样，设计时也包含两个对象：用户和事件。
And so if you're not a technologist, it's like object orientation is how you kind of think about the world.
因此，如果您不是技术专家，那么面向对象就好像您思考世界的方式一样。
There's only two concepts for the world in a user acquisition based system.
在基于用户获取的系统中，世界上只有两个概念。
A user who's a person either anonymous or known coming into your website and the things that they do on your website or application, and you use all that data to acquire them or model them.
匿名或已知的用户进入您的网站以及他们在您的网站或应用程序上执行的操作，并且您使用所有这些数据来获取它们或对它们进行建模。
Austin Hay: In a B2B business you have all that complexity, but at the end of the day, you might not really need it if all the person is doing is it's just the company is signing the contract and then you don't really care what happens afterwards.
Austin Hay：在 B2B 业务中，你会面临所有这些复杂性，但最终，如果所有人员所做的只是公司签署合同，然后你并不真正关心之后发生的事情，那么你可能并不真正需要它。
You might track users and events inside your application, but it's not for the acquisition, it's for the retention of the user.
您可能会跟踪应用程序内的用户和事件，但这不是为了获取用户，而是为了保留用户。
B2B2C is fascinating because you have all the complexity at the top, but then how and when do you tie a user to a company or some type of entity object, and what tools do you need to do that and where do they live in the system?
B2B2C 很有趣，因为您拥有顶层的所有复杂性，但是您如何以及何时将用户与公司或某种类型的实体对象联系起来，以及您需要什么工具来做到这一点以及它们位于系统中的何处？
And do those tools actually have competing priorities?
这些工具实际上有相互竞争的优先级吗？
Let me give you the greatest example of this that happened at Notion when I was consulting to them at Chris when I was consulting to them and at Ramp is having both HubSpot and Salesforce.
让我举一个最好的例子，发生在 Notion，当时我向 Chris 提供咨询，而 Ramp 则同时拥有 HubSpot 和 Salesforce。
Austin Hay: Both are CRMs, both have the ability to track users and companies, neither are CDPs.
Austin Hay：两者都是 CRM，都有跟踪用户和公司的能力，但 CDP 都不是。
And how you actually map the data from HubSpot to Salesforce kind of determines how much hell you're in, and there's really no good solution.
您如何实际将数据从 HubSpot 映射到 Salesforce 决定了您的处境，而且确实没有好的解决方案。
It's just like you have to figure out for yourself, how do you want to acquire use at the top of the funnel?
就像你必须自己弄清楚，你想如何在漏斗的顶部获得使用？
How do you merge them into the bottom of the funnel of the Salesforce?
如何将它们合并到 Salesforce 漏斗的底部？
And again, there are lots of options or versions of the world.
再说一次，世界有很多选择或版本。
You could use Amplitude only and collect all your user and event data and then merge that into Salesforce directly.
您可以仅使用 Amplitude 并收集所有用户和事件数据，然后将其直接合并到 Salesforce 中。
You could collect all your data in Amplitude or Segment and then post that to HubSpot, which then posts that to Salesforce.
您可以收集 Amplitude 或 Segment 中的所有数据，然后将其发布到 HubSpot，然后 HubSpot 将其发布到 Salesforce。
But of course, as you make these decisions, your systems becomes more complicated and more than one person can manage.
但是，当然，当您做出这些决定时，您的系统会变得更加复杂，并且不止一个人可以管理。
So, there's this trade-off between complexity and resources that you always have to juggle.
因此，您始终必须在复杂性和资源之间进行权衡。
Lenny: Today's episode is brought to you by Brave Search and their newest product, the Brave Search API, an independent global search index you can use to power your search or AI apps.
Lenny：今天的节目是由 Brave Search 及其最新产品 Brave Search API 为您带来的，Brave Search API 是一个独立的全局搜索索引，您可以使用它来为您的搜索或人工智能应用程序提供支持。
If your work involves AI, then you know how important new data is to train your LLMs and to power your AI applications.
如果您的工作涉及人工智能，那么您就会知道新数据对于培训您的法学硕士和为您的人工智能应用程序提供支持有多么重要。
You might be building an incredible AI product, but if you're using the same data sets as your competitors to train your models, you don't have much of an advantage.
您可能正在构建令人难以置信的人工智能产品，但如果您使用与竞争对手相同的数据集来训练您的模型，那么您就没有太多优势。
Brave Search is the fastest growing search engine since Bing, and it's 100% independent from the big tech companies.
Brave Search 是自 Bing 以来增长最快的搜索引擎，并且 100% 独立于大型科技公司。
Its index features billions of pages of high quality data from real humans, and it's constantly updated thanks to being the default search engine in the Brave browser.
它的索引包含来自真实人类的数十亿页高质量数据，并且由于是 Brave 浏览器中的默认搜索引擎，它会不断更新。
If you're building products with search capabilities, you're probably experiencing soaring API costs or lack of viable global alternatives to Bing or Google.
如果您正在构建具有搜索功能的产品，您可能会遇到 API 成本飙升的情况，或者缺乏 Bing 或 Google 的可行的全球替代方案。
Lenny: It's only going to become harder to afford these challenges.
莱尼：承受这些挑战只会变得更加困难。
The Brave Search API gives you access to its novel web scale data with competitive features, intuitive structuring and affordable costs.
Brave Search API 使您能够访问其新颖的网络规模数据，这些数据具有竞争性的功能、直观的结构和实惠的成本。
AI devs will particularly benefit from data containing thorough coverage of recent events.
人工智能开发人员将特别受益于包含近期事件的全面报道的数据。
Lenny's Podcast listeners can get started testing the API for free at brave.com/lenny.
Lenny 的播客听众可以在 Brave.com/lenny 上开始免费测试 API。
That's brave.com/lenny.
那是brave.com/lenny。
There's this big question within B2B and B2C around how to do attribution.
B2B 和 B2C 中存在一个关于如何进行归因的大问题。
Well, it's a never ending struggle.
嗯，这是一场永无休止的斗争。
I'm curious if you have any pro-tips or best practices or tools that you use to improve the way attribution happens at a company.
我很好奇您是否有任何专业技巧或最佳实践或工具可用于改进公司的归因方式。
Austin Hay: Actually, I listened to your pod on multi-touch attribution.
Austin Hay：实际上，我听了你关于多点触控归因的播客。
I'm forgetting who you were with at this point, but it was like I was loving it because it talked about MMM and MTA specifically.
我已经忘记你当时和谁在一起了，但我好像很喜欢它，因为它特别谈到了 MMM 和 MTA。
Lenny: Yeah, that was a newsletter post actually, not even a podcast.
莱尼：是的，那实际上是一篇时事通讯，甚至不是播客。
Austin Hay: Yes.
奥斯汀·海伊：是的。
So, back to our conversation around division of responsibility.
那么，回到我们关于责任分工的谈话。
I'm not always the person you should talk to create an MMM model.
我并不总是您应该谈论创建 MMM 模型的人。
I'm not a data scientist.
我不是数据科学家。
I know how to make MMM models and I know what they are.
我知道如何制作 MMM 模型，也知道它们是什么。
Austin Hay: Mixed Media Modeling.
奥斯汀·海伊：混合媒体建模。
And MTA stands for Multi-touch Attribution and it's these two ways of measuring the world and marketing to understand how you should allocate resources to campaign spend.
MTA 代表多点触控归因，它是衡量世界和营销的两种方式，以了解您应该如何为营销活动支出分配资源。
MTA and MMM though are both underpinned by how you collect data.
不过，MTA 和 MMM 都以收集数据的方式为基础。
They're both informed by the user object and the event objects that you collect on your website or your application that then lead to the data that data scientists use for MTA and MMM.
它们都由您在网站或应用程序上收集的用户对象和事件对象通知，然后生成数据科学家用于 MTA 和 MMM 的数据。
That's the connection between data and MarTech is often the tools and systems that we build and stand up and manage are what are used for these very complicated growth, experimentation and attribution results at the end of it.
这就是数据和 MarTech 之间的联系，通常是我们构建、建立和管理的工具和系统，最终用于这些非常复杂的增长、实验和归因结果。
And one of the most discreet things you can do for MTA, because I get this question all the time around, hey, do we need MTA?
这是您可以为 MTA 做的最谨慎的事情之一，因为我一直收到这个问题，嘿，我们需要 MTA 吗？
Austin Hay: What should I do first touch or last touch?
Austin Hay：第一次接触或最后一次接触我应该做什么？
Should I do both?
我应该两者都做吗？
And there's actually really, I can send you this guide, but there's six or seven things you can do to basically futureproof yourself from needing either one.
实际上，我可以向您发送本指南，但是您可以做六到七件事来基本上保证自己将来不再需要任何一个。
Because most businesses either start with first touch or last touch and then eventually want to move to a multi-touch attribution model.
因为大多数企业要么从第一次触摸或最后一次触摸开始，然后最终希望转向多点触摸归因模型。
And for those who don't know what that is, first touch is where you kind of collect the data about where somebody first came from.
对于那些不知道那是什么的人来说，第一次接触是指收集有关某人最初来自哪里的数据。
Last touch is where you collect the data about where the person last came from.
最后一次接触是您收集有关该人最后来自哪里的数据的地方。
So, an example, would this be like if I went to Lenny's Newsletter from a Google ad and that's all he has?
举个例子，如果我通过 Google 广告访问 Lenny 的时事通讯，而这就是他所拥有的一切，情况会是这样吗？
That would be my first touch and my last touch.
那将是我的第一次接触，也是最后一次接触。
If I first came from a Google ad to Lenny's Podcast, but then later I came from a Facebook ad or I don't know direct, then that would be my last touch.
如果我第一次从 Google 广告来到 Lenny's Podcast，但后来我从 Facebook 广告而来，或者我不知道直接，那么这将是我最后一次接触。
Austin Hay: And so it's this question of does the Google original first Google Channel get credit or does the second one the Facebook or direct get credit?
Austin Hay：所以问题是，Google 最初的第一个 Google 频道是否获得信誉，或者第二个 Facebook 或 Direct 频道是否获得信誉？
And the first touch attribution model, a hundred percent goes to the first channel and the last touch attribution model, a hundred percent credit goes to the last touch.
第一个触摸归因模型，100% 归于第一个渠道，最后一个触摸归因模型，100% 归于最后一个触摸。
And a mixed attribution model or multi-touch attribution model, you're trying to figure out how to split the difference.
对于混合归因模型或多点触控归因模型，您正在尝试找出如何分配差异。
And usually the evolution for businesses is they start with first touch or last touch, then they go to splitting it literally 50/50.
通常，企业的演变是从第一次接触或最后一次接触开始，然后按照 50/50 的比例进行分配。
And then somebody gets angry because they're not getting enough credit and they say, we've got to go to MTA.
然后有人会生气，因为他们没有得到足够的认可，他们说，我们必须去 MTA。
And there are both first party solutions for that and third party solutions for MTA.
MTA 既有第一方解决方案，也有第三方解决方案。
But back to the main thing, the main point is if you think about what you're collecting, this is for website businesses, you're collecting the referrer, like in the URL where the person's coming from, and you need any UTMs associated with that person.
但回到主要问题，重点是如果你考虑一下你要收集的内容，这是针对网站业务的，你要收集引荐来源网址，例如该人来自的 URL，并且你需要与该人关联的任何 UTM。
Austin Hay: And you also need any parameters from the advertising networks that might give them the ability to counter a conversion.
Austin Hay：您还需要来自广告网络的任何参数，这些参数可能使他们能够抵抗转化。
Every ad network out there has little things they stuff into your URL that tell you that you came from them.
每个广告网络都会在您的网址中塞入一些小东西，告诉您您来自他们。
Facebook has FVP, FPID, they sometimes encode it.
Facebook 有 FVP、FPID，他们有时会对它进行编码。
Google has this thing called Google Click ID, which is just a really long string of characters that don't matter unless you know how to decode it.
谷歌有一个叫做谷歌点击ID的东西，它只是一串很长的字符，除非你知道如何解码它，否则它并不重要。
But all advertisers, and for the longest time advertising worked by putting parameters in URLs, pushing somebody through to your website, collecting those parameters and then passing it back to the ad network so they could get credit for it.
但所有广告商，以及在最长的时间里，广告的工作方式都是在 URL 中放入参数，将某人推送到您的网站，收集这些参数，然后将其传递回广告网络，以便他们获得信誉。
And so in my mind, the best practice that everybody should stand up from day one is to basically design the system for MTA and then use whatever makes sense as you grow.
因此，在我看来，每个人从第一天起就应该坚持的最佳实践是基本上为 MTA 设计系统，然后随着您的成长使用任何有意义的东西。
Austin Hay: And so the way that I typically recommend to people is like imagine when a user comes to your website, you collect the URL, collect the referring URL, collect all the additional marketing parameters that you might want, , TikTok ID, Microsoft ID, you should just make a list of them.
Austin Hay：所以我通常向人们推荐的方式就像想象一下，当用户访问您的网站时，您收集 URL、收集引用 URL、收集您可能需要的所有其他营销参数、TikTok ID、Microsoft ID，您应该列出它们。
And if you don't have that list, I can give them to you.
如果您没有该清单，我可以给您。
And then you should collect all UTMs.
然后您应该收集所有 UTM。
So, in the URL, you're going to have UTM campaign, UTM medium.
因此，在 URL 中，您将拥有 UTM 活动、UTM 媒体。
Most marketers use this to note what the campaign type was.
大多数营销人员用它来记录活动类型。
Now the thing is that UTM is only going to be specific to the moment in time that the person came to your website.
现在的问题是，UTM 只会特定于该人访问您网站的时间。
So, back to example about Lenny's podcast.
那么，回到莱尼播客的例子。
If I come to LE's podcast and I came from a Google ad, then my UTM is only for that Google ad.
如果我访问 LE 的播客并且来自 Google 广告，那么我的 UTM 仅适用于该 Google 广告。
Austin Hay: So, I have a Google Click ID and I have a UTM.
Austin Hay：所以，我有一个 Google Click ID 和一个 UTM。
So, what you're got to do is you've got to store those parameters locally on the device.
因此，您要做的就是必须将这些参数本地存储在设备上。
Either was a browser or whatever.
要么是浏览器，要么是其他什么。
You got to store it as UTM first campaign, UTM last campaign.
您必须将其存储为 UTM 第一个营销活动、UTM 最后一个营销活动。
And what you do is every single time that a person comes, you replace the last campaign or the last value with the one that's there.
您所做的就是每次有人来时，您都会用那里的活动或最后一个值替换最后一个活动或最后一个值。
So, say the last one was Facebook and then I come later from a direct mailer ad you replace the UTM last medium with the new one.
所以，假设最后一个是 Facebook，然后我从一个直邮广告中得知，你用新的媒体替换了 UTM 的最后一个媒体。
Now what's happening if you're using third party tools is that you're collecting this user information when the person's on the website, you're going to collect it both as a user attribute and as an event that way.
现在，如果您使用第三方工具，您会在该人访问网站时收集此用户信息，您将以这种方式将其收集为用户属性和事件。
What's going to happen on the backend for your data warehouse team is they're going to see a user profile that has both the first attribution information and the last attribution information.
在数据仓库团队的后端，他们将看到一个用户配置文件，其中包含第一个归因信息和最后一个归因信息。
Austin Hay: And then for all the stuff in the middle, you're firing off a page view event with first and last, where the last might deviate if there were multiple steps in the middle.
Austin Hay：然后，对于中间的所有内容，您将触发第一个和最后一个页面视图事件，如果中间有多个步骤，最后一个可能会有所偏差。
So, what they can do is they can just coalesce over all the last UTMs they've seen on all your events by user to get both their first one, all the ones in the middle and the last.
因此，他们可以做的是，他们可以按用户合并他们在所有事件中看到的所有最后 UTM，以获得他们的第一个、中间和最后一个的所有 UTM。
And so this isn't actually that complicated to set up.
因此，设置实际上并不那么复杂。
Most people just don't do the work early on.
大多数人只是不尽早做这项工作。
And then when they want to go back later and have MTA results, they don't have the data to do it.
然后，当他们想稍后返回并获得 MTA 结果时，他们没有数据可以做到这一点。
So, one of the things I tell people who are debating this is let's just get the infrastructure right from the beginning.
因此，我告诉那些对此进行辩论的人们的一件事是，让我们从一开始就建立正确的基础设施。
Austin Hay: Let's set up so that you have users, you have user attributes, you're collecting first and last UTM on users.
Austin Hay：让我们进行设置，以便您拥有用户、用户属性、收集用户的第一个和最后一个 UTM。
You're firing events with all those.
您正在用所有这些来触发事件。
There's some other more complex things you can do too.
您还可以做一些其他更复杂的事情。
You can set them in first party cookies and you can also set them in your third party cookies for your tooling vendors.
您可以将它们设置在第一方 cookie 中，也可以将它们设置在工具供应商的第三方 cookie 中。
At the end of the day though, what matters is you just are collecting this information from the beginning.
但归根结底，重要的是您只是从一开始就收集这些信息。
That way when you actually want to progress your attribution model, you don't have to wait a really long time to start gathering that data.
这样，当您真正想要改进归因模型时，您不必等待很长时间才能开始收集数据。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
I love the details that you're sharing.
我喜欢你分享的细节。
I don't know where else people can find this sort of advice.
我不知道人们还能在哪里找到此类建议。
It sounds like a core part of this is one, just having a data warehouse where you just throw all this data into, and two, having a taxonomy that you can rely on and do multiple things with down the road.
听起来这件事的核心部分是，一是拥有一个数据仓库，您只需将所有这些数据放入其中即可；二是拥有一个可以依赖的分类法，并可以在未来使用该分类法做多种事情。
Is that roughly right?
大致是这样吗？
Austin Hay: Yeah, I think that's right.
奥斯汀·海伊：是的，我认为这是对的。
The taxonomy though, I think what's interesting is it's very much guided by your third party tools.
不过，我认为分类法有趣的是它很大程度上是由第三方工具指导的。
And again, that's the reason why I think companies often miss the mark here is because they're not thinking about what can my tool actually allow me to put into it in the first place.
再说一次，这就是为什么我认为公司经常错过目标的原因是因为他们首先没有考虑我的工具实际上可以让我投入什么。
Lenny: Just to make sure I understand what you're saying there, you're saying generally maybe third party tools limit what you can do, which set you up for hardship later.
Lenny：为了确保我理解你所说的内容，你说的是，一般来说，第三方工具可能会限制你能做的事情，这会让你以后陷入困境。
And maybe what you're saying is do that yourself, that tracking piece, is that roughly what you're saying?
也许你所说的是你自己做，那个跟踪件，大致就是你所说的吗？
Austin Hay: Yeah, I think that's right.
奥斯汀·海伊：是的，我认为这是对的。
The way to think of it is if you build your own data warehouse, your schema is unlimited.
思考的方式是，如果您构建自己的数据仓库，您的模式是无限的。
You can do whatever you want.
你可以做任何你想做的事。
You can design product schema, you can design user schema and event schema, but most third party B2C tools don't allow you to control the schema.
您可以设计产品架构，可以设计用户架构和事件架构，但大多数第三方 B2C 工具不允许您控制架构。
There's only one CDP I know that does that, that's Snowplow.
据我所知，只有一个 CDP 能做到这一点，那就是 Snowplow。
The rest are there's a user object and an event object.
其余的是用户对象和事件对象。
So, you can either stuff data as a user property onto the user object or you can stuff data into the event and fire it off as an event, but that's what you're working with.
因此，您可以将数据作为用户属性填充到用户对象中，也可以将数据填充到事件中并将其作为事件触发，但这就是您正在处理的内容。
So, what I'm saying is most people just don't think about the object orientation of the third party tools they think about and they don't design their website traffic or their app traffic.
所以，我想说的是，大多数人只是没有考虑他们所考虑的第三方工具的面向对象，也没有设计他们的网站流量或应用程序流量。
We didn't talk about app, which is a whole different slew because doing attribution with Iowas 14 is much more difficult.
我们没有谈论应用程序，这是一个完全不同的转变，因为使用 Iowas 14 进行归因要困难得多。
Austin Hay: But even in the website version of the world, people will often just collect UTMs and think that their job is done and it's like actually it's more complex.
Austin Hay：但即使在网站版本的世界中，人们也常常只是收集 UTM，并认为他们的工作已经完成，而实际上它更复杂。
You have to think about first and last, think about the steps in the middle, design it so that you're putting it on the user profile and in the event.
您必须考虑第一个和最后一个，考虑中间的步骤，进行设计，以便将其放在用户配置文件和事件中。
And so this goes back to the main thing that we were talking about earlier, whereas the job of a marketing technologist is to think often one to two years down the road about what we're going to need to solve for and design systems in an elegant way, not to break the bank, but to at least be the minimum viable product to actually get there.
因此，这又回到了我们之前讨论的主要问题，而营销技术专家的工作是经常思考一到两年后我们需要解决什么问题，并以一种优雅的方式设计系统，不是要花很多钱，而是至少要成为真正实现这一目标的最低可行产品。
And a lot of my job, and I think the job of marketing technologists is trying to preserve that future state in the most minimally invasive engineering and resource way possible.
我的很多工作，我认为营销技术人员的工作就是试图以尽可能侵入性最小的工程和资源方式保持未来状态。
Lenny: You've talked a bit about thinking ahead and a bunch of tools and platforms, and I'm wondering are there any new and emerging tools, platforms or even growth channels that you're keeping an eye on or excited about or finding more and more useful?
Lenny：您谈到了一些关于超前思考以及一系列工具和平台的内容，我想知道是否有任何新的和正在出现的工具、平台甚至增长渠道是您正在关注或感到兴奋或发现越来越有用的？
Austin Hay: I'd be remiss if we didn't talk about Threads, right?
Austin Hay：如果我们不讨论线程，那就是我的失职，对吧？
Threads is super interesting.
线程超级有趣。
The question will be how quickly can they stand up an API for advertising and what does that look like or do they just blind it in with the existing meta and Facebook architecture?
问题是他们能多快建立一个广告 API，它是什么样的，还是他们只是用现有的元和 Facebook 架构来蒙蔽它？
One of the caveats that I'm sure a lot of performance marketers out there will agree with is Facebook has a conflict of interest in reporting, right?
我相信很多效果营销人员都会同意的警告之一是 Facebook 在报道方面存在利益冲突，对吗？
They want you to spend money, so obviously they want to report the best results.
他们希望你花钱，所以显然他们想报告最好的结果。
And that's the reason why attribution parties like Branch and AppsFlyer exist is to somewhat curtail that conflict of interest.
这就是 Branch 和 AppsFlyer 等归属方存在的原因，就是为了在一定程度上减少这种利益冲突。
And so I'll be really interested just to see how attribution works, especially when you're moving from Instagram to Threads, from Facebook to Threads.
因此，我非常有兴趣了解归因如何运作，尤其是当您从 Instagram 转移到 Threads、从 Facebook 转移到 Threads 时。
Will it be the same architecture, will be the same advertising platform?
会是相同的架构、相同的广告平台吗？
Will they try to do something new?
他们会尝试做一些新的事情吗？
Austin Hay: So, I'm keeping my eyes on that.
Austin Hay：所以，我正在密切关注这一点。
Reddit is also a very interesting place to convert now.
Reddit 现在也是一个非常有趣的转换场所。
They're opening up their conversions API, and I'm seeing a lot more investment in Reddit just because you can have embedded ads now that almost look like they can be posts that you can comment on.
他们正在开放他们的转化 API，我看到 Reddit 上有更多的投资，因为你现在可以嵌入广告，几乎看起来它们可以是你可以评论的帖子。
I think it just speaks to the maturity of the advertising business.
我认为这恰恰说明了广告业务的成熟度。
What's happening in the background of all this is ad attribution from apps has become a lot more difficult and mostly aggregate.
在这一切的背景下发生的事情是，应用程序的广告归因变得更加困难，而且大多是聚合的。
From 2010 to 2020, we had the golden years of deterministic matching where it was very easy to run an ad and understand with precision who installed the app.
从 2010 年到 2020 年，我们经历了确定性匹配的黄金岁月，可以轻松投放广告并准确了解谁安装了该应用程序。
Maybe you didn't know their name, but you actually would know their IDFA and you could tie that to their PI.
也许您不知道他们的名字，但您实际上会知道他们的 IDFA，并且您可以将其与他们的 PI 联系起来。
You can't do that anymore.
你不能再这样做了。
It's very challenging.
这非常具有挑战性。
Austin Hay: Even when you can do it, the results that you would get are pretty low because nobody's going to be opting into giving you their IDFA.
Austin Hay：即使您能做到，您得到的结果也相当低，因为没有人会选择向您提供 IDFA。
So, what that means is these ad networks are becoming more complex, sophisticated, and interesting right at the same time that it's harder for marketers to really understand how they're spending money.
因此，这意味着这些广告网络正变得更加复杂、精密和有趣，同时营销人员更难真正了解他们如何花钱。
And so I'm paying a lot of attention to how marketers make decisions with probabilistic data because most of the work that I'm doing now is actually saying, well, given that we don't have determinist data about a certain audience or where somebody came from, how can I find other information that will create a model for 30% of the population and we can use that to extrapolate to a hundred.
因此，我非常关注营销人员如何利用概率数据做出决策，因为我现在所做的大部分工作实际上是在说，鉴于我们没有关于特定受众或某人来自哪里的确定性数据，我如何才能找到其他信息来为 30% 的人口创建模型，我们可以用它来推断到 100%。
So, probabilistic matching and probabilistic attribution I feel like is a skillset that more marketing technologists and marketers should just get familiar with the way that we make decisions today.
因此，我认为概率匹配和概率归因是一种技能，更多的营销技术人员和营销人员应该熟悉我们今天做出决策的方式。
Lenny: Wow, I hadn't heard of this concept before.
莱尼：哇，我以前没听说过这个概念。
And that's how people are starting, or at least you're suggesting that's how people should start thinking about growth results and impact is less, here's how much this ad drove, the likelihood that this ad did this had this sort of impact.
这就是人们开始的方式，或者至少你建议人们应该这样开始考虑增长结果，影响较小，这是这个广告带来的影响，这个广告这样做的可能性有这种影响。
Austin Hay: And it's not the case with all channels, but it's specific for apps that have mobile apps, they're going to be impacted by it because they just aren't going to be able to discreetly identify one-to-one the person that came from a campaign.
Austin Hay：并非所有渠道都是如此，但对于拥有移动应用程序的应用程序来说，它们会受到影响，因为它们无法谨慎地一对一地识别来自活动的人员。
They'll know that a group of people came from a campaign, but they won't be able to make measurement with those people alongside other attributes.
他们会知道一群人来自一次竞选活动，但他们无法将这些人与其他属性一起进行衡量。
For website, it's not the same, but there are lots of things that are making it more challenging.
对于网站来说，情况不一样，但有很多事情使它更具挑战性。
One is browsers now are stripping out those URLs we talked about.
一是浏览器现在正在删除我们讨论过的那些 URL。
So, you're just seeing a bigger and bigger percentage of people being counted as organic that actually came from a paid advertisement because when they got redirected to your website, the browser truncated all those URL parameters.
因此，您会看到越来越多的人被算作有机用户，这些人实际上来自付费广告，因为当他们被重定向到您的网站时，浏览器会截断所有这些 URL 参数。
The second thing is cookie blockers.
第二件事是 cookie 拦截器。
We talk about all these third parties before.
我们之前讨论过所有这些第三方。
Austin Hay: The way that third parties often collect information is they drop a cookie in your browser that tracks you, if you've heard of Segment, which is one of the most well-known CDPs of the last few years, is they implant a little third party cookie on the site that contains an anonymous user ID and all of your attributes as you're navigating the site.
Austin Hay：第三方收集信息的方式通常是在您的浏览器中放置一个 cookie 来跟踪您，如果您听说过 Segment（过去几年最知名的 CDP 之一），他们会在网站上植入一个小型第三方 cookie，其中包含匿名用户 ID 以及您在浏览网站时的所有属性。
And then once you log in, they convert that to a known or non-anonymous user ID.
然后，一旦您登录，他们就会将其转换为已知或非匿名用户 ID。
Austin Hay: Usually that's tied to some type of entity ID or a user record.
Austin Hay：通常这与某种类型的实体 ID 或用户记录相关。
And at that moment in time, if you come back and they see your cookie, they kind of know who you are.
在那一刻，如果你回来，他们看到你的饼干，他们就知道你是谁。
Now, if you're blocking cookies, that means you're basically remaining anonymous throughout the entire user journey until you log in.
现在，如果您阻止 cookie，则意味着您在登录之前的整个用户旅程中基本上保持匿名。
Not to mention a lot of people have lead funnels where you need that information to actually understand what the user is doing before they convert.
更不用说很多人都有潜在客户渠道，您需要这些信息才能在用户转化之前真正了解用户在做什么。
So, if you're blocking third party cookies before they even get a chance to convert, you have no information about where the person came from.
因此，如果您在第三方 cookie 有机会进行转换之前就将其阻止，您就无法获得有关此人来自何处的信息。
You just saw that they signed up, and so it might as well be organic.
你刚刚看到他们注册了，所以这也可能是有机的。
Lenny: So, you talked about how many people are trying to get used to this new world of ATT and much harder to measure attribution and all that.
莱尼：那么，您谈到了有多少人正在尝试适应 ATT 的新世界，并且更难衡量归因等等。
Is there anything you've learned that has worked well to help you recover from that a little bit in terms of measuring what's happening?
在衡量正在发生的事情方面，您是否学到了一些可以有效帮助您从中恢复过来的东西？
Is there any tips you can share or anything you've seen work?
您有什么可以分享的技巧或您见过的有效方法吗？
Austin Hay: Yeah, I mean I think a lot of people are just gravitating towards MMM now without really understanding when MMM is useful or not.
Austin Hay：是的，我的意思是，我认为很多人现在只是被 MMM 所吸引，而没有真正了解 MMM 何时有用或无用。
I don't know if there's a company called Recast.
不知道有没有一家叫Recast的公司。
I think you're an investor.
我认为你是一个投资者。
Am I crazy?
我疯了吗？
Lenny: I am.
莱尼：我是。
And that's who wrote that article that you mentioned actually.
那就是你实际上提到的那篇文章的作者。
Austin Hay: That's right.
奥斯汀·海伊：没错。
It's Michael and it was somebody else, I can't remember the name besides-
这是迈克尔，还有其他人，我不记得名字了——
Austin Hay: I'm not an expert on MMM, so I'm not going to be able to comment to quite the degree that they have.
Austin Hay：我不是 MMM 方面的专家，所以我无法像他们那样发表评论。
But when I spoke with Michael, and when I think about MMM, a lot of my conversation is this actually really realistic for our business right now?
但当我与 Michael 交谈时，当我想到 MMM 时，我的很多对话对于我们现在的业务来说真的很现实吗？
Do we have the data to run an MMM model and how is it going to change or chart the course of our performance ad marketing business in light of having this information?
我们是否拥有运行 MMM 模型的数据？根据这些信息，它将如何改变或绘制我们效果广告营销业务的进程？
And when I think about it through those lens, most of the time businesses are not ready for MMM.
当我从这些角度思考时，大多数时候企业还没有为 MMM 做好准备。
They actually just be an MTA and they need better probabilistic modeling.
他们实际上只是 MTA，需要更好的概率建模。
And I know that's not a super spicy take, but I'd just say at least at Ramp and what I'm seeing at other businesses right now that are operating, it's much more of like we're going back to the days where we understand in broad strokes how much each of our campaigns is driving in advertising revenue.
我知道这并不是一个超级辣的想法，但我只想说，至少在 Ramp 以及我现在在其他正在运营的企业中看到的情况，这更像是我们回到了我们大致了解每个广告活动为广告收入带来多少收入的时代。
Austin Hay: We're not able to tie that discreetly with the user journey.
Austin Hay：我们无法谨慎地将其与用户旅程联系起来。
And we know that some percentage of this user base might have been lost or organic.
我们知道，这个用户群中的一定比例可能已经流失或有机。
So, in light of those, how do we make spend?
那么，鉴于这些，我们如何花钱呢？
And then also you can be pretty smart.
然后你也可以变得非常聪明。
You can do, for example, geo-based testing on billboards.
例如，您可以对广告牌进行基于地理的测试。
Try to isolate that as a factor if you withhold all other confounding factors so you can be smart.
如果您保留所有其他混杂因素，请尝试将其作为一个因素隔离，这样您就可以变得聪明。
Coordinating these types of campaigns though is really challenging, especially if you're a really big business, let's say runs online advertising throughout the US and you're trying to do targeted billboard tests in an isolated number of cities across the states coordinating to turn off demographics, make sure there's not isolating factors.
不过，协调这些类型的活动确实具有挑战性，特别是如果您是一家非常大的企业，比如说在美国各地运营在线广告，并且您试图在各州的孤立数量的城市中进行有针对性的广告牌测试，以协调关闭人口统计数据，确保不存在孤立因素。
It can be really challenging.
这真的很有挑战性。
So, there's not a silver bullet right now I don't think.
所以，我不认为现在没有灵丹妙药。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
Just a few more questions and then a broader question I want to ask.
还有几个问题，然后我想问一个更广泛的问题。
So, say you want to start hiring the next Austin, first of all, what do you look for in the person?
所以，假设你想开始招聘下一个奥斯汀，首先，你在这个人身上寻找什么？
What are signs that they're probably going to be worth chatting with?
有哪些迹象表明他们可能值得与之交谈？
And then what are some interview questions you'd like to ask to get a sense of how strong they are?
那么你想问哪些面试问题来了解他们的实力？
Austin Hay: So, the first thing that I always gravitate towards is just intellectual curiosity.
Austin Hay：所以，我总是倾向于的第一件事就是求知欲。
And I know that's very, maybe a little bit overrated, but I think you can tell pretty quickly if somebody's just interested in the world and learning things.
我知道这可能有点被高估了，但我认为你可以很快判断出某人是否只是对世界和学习事物感兴趣。
And the thing about third party tools is you are constantly learning.
第三方工具的特点是你需要不断学习。
You'll never be an expert in everything because there's way too many tools to be an expert on, I forgot what publication, I think it's MarTech editor in chief or something.
你永远不会成为所有方面的专家，因为有太多的工具需要成为专家，我忘记了是什么出版物，我认为是 MarTech 主编或其他什么。
There's a publication that I subscribed to and everything is classified as MarTech and the diagram is huge, like cover a wall.
我订阅了一份出版物，所有内容都被归类为 MarTech，而且图表很大，就像覆盖了一堵墙一样。
Now I don't believe everything like that is MarTech, but even if a fraction is, there are way too many tools in technology to ever be an expert.
现在我不相信这样的一切都是MarTech，但即使只有一小部分是，技术中的工具太多了，不可能成为专家。
So, you have to be both very interested in learning and very willing to quickly learn if you want to be in the space.
因此，如果你想进入这个领域，你必须对学习非常感兴趣，并且非常愿意快速学习。
Austin Hay: And so I generally look for intellectual curiosity as the first sign.
Austin Hay：所以我通常将求知欲作为第一个标志。
The second thing that I think helps people a lot who have intellectual curiosity is they're scrappy in engineering.
我认为对具有求知欲的人有很大帮助的第二件事是他们在工程方面斗志旺盛。
They might not be the best engineer possible, but they know how to get around.
他们可能不是最好的工程师，但他们知道如何解决问题。
They know JavaScript, they know Python, they can read API documentation and make an API request.
他们了解 JavaScript，他们了解 Python，他们可以阅读 API 文档并发出 API 请求。
They have enough base knowledge to basically understand how to solve a problem that an engineer might do even if they themselves are not an engineer.
他们有足够的基础知识，基本上可以理解如何解决工程师可能会做的问题，即使他们自己不是工程师。
Now obviously you can get lucky sometimes and you'll find the engineer who never wants to be an engineer again and decides to move into something less technical.
显然，有时你会很幸运，你会发现工程师再也不想成为一名工程师，并决定转向技术性较低的领域。
And in those cases they're super powerful, but I haven't met a lot of those people in my life.
在这些情况下，他们非常强大，但我一生中还没有遇到很多这样的人。
And also there's just some business dynamics to it.
而且还有一些商业动态。
You could probably make more as a backend engineer than as a MarTech guy.
作为后端工程师，你可能比作为营销技术人员赚更多的钱。
Austin Hay: So, you probably just pursue the pathway that makes more money.
Austin Hay：所以，你可能只是追求赚更多钱的途径。
It's like a little bit of a utility function.
这就像一个实用函数。
So, I look for intellectual curiosity.
所以，我寻找求知欲。
I look for basic engineering scrappiness.
我寻找基本的工程斗志。
And as a side note, I would say lots of people out there, the advice that I give them is you don't have to go get a software engineering degree.
顺便说一句，我想说很多人，我给他们的建议是你不必去获得软件工程学位。
You can teach yourself, I am self-taught.
你可以自学，我是自学的。
You can take a coding academy online.
您可以在线参加编程学院。
I think you get enough knowledge through being able to do web programming or some type of backend programming.
我认为您通过能够进行网络编程或某种类型的后端编程获得了足够的知识。
So, I would say it's not more than a six-month investment for anybody to really get the skillset that's needed.
因此，我想说，对于任何人来说，要真正获得所需的技能，只需六个月的投资。
Obviously once you get the skillset, you can build upon it with years of experience afterwards.
显然，一旦您掌握了技能，您就可以在此基础上积累多年的经验。
But if you're new to the space and you're in marketing ops and you want to get more technical, or if you're a user acquisition manager who did paid performance, but you're like, I really want do things end to end.
但是，如果您是这个领域的新手，并且您是营销运营人员，并且想要获得更多技术，或者如果您是一名负责付费绩效的用户获取经理，但您会想，我真的想端到端地做事情。
Austin Hay: You can just go pick up some software skills and you probably are going to be pretty dangerous from that.
Austin Hay：你可以去学习一些软件技能，但你可能会因此变得非常危险。
And so those are the two things I gravitate towards.
这就是我所倾向于的两件事。
There's obviously many more, but those are the first two.
显然还有更多，但这些是前两个。
The questions that I like to ask is what does I like to ask people how they prepared for the interview.
我喜欢问的问题是我喜欢问人们他们是如何准备面试的。
This is not, I can't take credit for this.
这不是，我不能因此而获得荣誉。
My wife told me about, gave me this idea and I loved it.
我的妻子告诉我，给了我这个想法，我很喜欢。
I think it was a16z partner.
我认为是 a16z 合作伙伴。
But I love the question because when you ask, hey, how did you prepare?
但我喜欢这个问题，因为当你问，嘿，你准备得怎么样了？
You're really asking how does the person think?
你真的是在问这个人怎么想？
How did they plan?
他们是如何计划的？
How did they take things seriously or not?
他们如何认真对待事情或不认真对待事情？
What did they read?
他们读了什么？
What did they do?
他们做了什么？
And if you have to prompt them to tell you all the things they did, then they're just not a systems thinker.
如果你必须提示他们告诉你他们所做的所有事情，那么他们就不是一个系统思考者。
Austin Hay: But if they're like, hey, actually I read these things, I did this.
奥斯汀·海伊：但是如果他们说，嘿，实际上我读了这些东西，我就这么做了。
I woke up, I went for a run.
我醒了，出去跑步。
The more interesting complex the answer, the more interesting complex the candidate.
答案越有趣复杂，候选人就越有趣复杂。
And so I love the question because it just gives you a really good understanding of the person on a whole, like right out the gate.
所以我喜欢这个问题，因为它能让你对这个人有一个整体的很好的了解，就像刚走出大门一样。
And then the other question I like to ask is I like to ask, so you're coming in tomorrow to our marketing tech system and by Friday you have to write up a report on all the things we should change.
然后我想问的另一个问题是我想问，所以你明天要进入我们的营销技术系统，到周五你必须写一份关于我们应该改变的所有事情的报告。
What do you do?
你做什么工作？
And I like to ask that question because it pretty much signals out people who are biased versus not.
我喜欢问这个问题，因为它很大程度上表明了哪些人有偏见，哪些人没有偏见。
People who have tooling biases will immediately just like, we should implement this tool because I used it before and I really like to hire people who are not tool specific, who are more tool agnostic and they think about tools as being things to solve problems as opposed to tools being things that you just solve because you've already solved it one way.
有工具偏见的人会立即喜欢，我们应该实现这个工具，因为我以前使用过它，我真的很喜欢雇用那些不特定于工具的人，他们对工具更加不可知，他们认为工具是解决问题的东西，而不是工具是你刚刚解决的东西，因为你已经用一种方式解决了它。
Austin Hay: This isn't a gripe and it's certainly not intended to slice at PMs, but one of my observations of a lot of PMs is they just pick the tools they've already used before because it's easy and it's a shortcut for them, which I understand, but problems are not always the same.
Austin Hay：这不是抱怨，当然也不是为了批评产品经理，但我对很多产品经理的观察之一是，他们只是选择他们以前已经使用过的工具，因为这很简单，而且对他们来说是一条捷径，我理解这一点，但问题并不总是相同的。
So, tools shouldn't always be the same.
因此，工具不应该总是相同的。
So, I like to pick people who think about the problem set and the solution space more and they ask questions about what problems you're trying to solve, which I think is much more of an actual PM mindset of trying to work backward from the problem as opposed to just taking the problem and regurgitating stuff that you already know.
所以，我喜欢挑选那些更多地思考问题集和解决方案空间的人，他们会询问你想要解决的问题，我认为这更像是真正的 PM 心态，试图从问题中逆向工作，而不是仅仅接受问题并反省你已经知道的东西。
Lenny: Are there any flags you look for that tell you maybe this person isn't someone you want to be working with?
莱尼：您是否寻找任何标志来告诉您这个人可能不是您想要与之合作的人？
Austin Hay: I answer that question on two spectrums.
Austin Hay：我从两个方面回答这个问题。
One is if I'm hiring as somebody who's hiring an IC versus I'm getting hired.
其一是，我是作为雇佣 IC 的人来招聘的，还是我被雇佣的。
So, one of the red flags whenever I'm approaching a company to work for them is I'll ask for their company financials and a company that's not willing to divulge their financials to a director level or above person, I don't want to do business with because that means they're hiding something.
因此，每当我接触一家公司为他们工作时，危险信号之一就是我会询问他们公司的财务状况，而一家不愿意向董事级或以上级别的人透露其财务状况的公司，我不想与之做生意，因为这意味着他们隐瞒了一些事情。
Or they have a culture where they don't trust the most senior leaders of the organization.
或者他们的文化不信任组织中的最高领导者。
Either is a bad choice in my perspective.
在我看来，两者都是一个糟糕的选择。
So, that's one of the questions I always ask when I'm going up for a job, when I'm hiring somebody.
所以，这是我在找工作、雇用某人时总是问的问题之一。
Red flags, I feel like one of the false flags not a red flag is more like when there's a gap in somebody's job resume, everybody gravitates towards that and it's often really explainable.
危险信号，我觉得其中一个错误信号不是危险信号，更像是某人的工作简历中存在空白，每个人都倾向于这一点，而且通常是可以解释的。
Austin Hay: A good example is I was hiring somebody once who had a two-year gap in their resume.
Austin Hay：一个很好的例子是，我曾经雇用过一个简历上有两年空白的人。
We didn't end up hiring the person, but they went through all the stages and we didn't hire them, not because of them, but because the job got removed and this person took two years to get a philosophy degree or maybe it was a poetry degree and then also taught himself to program.
我们最终没有雇用这个人，但他们经历了所有阶段，我们没有雇用他们，不是因为他们，而是因为工作被取消了，这个人花了两年时间才获得哲学学位，或者也许是诗歌学位，然后还自学了编程。
So, it was a really enriching two years and there were lots of ways that I could see them bringing their past experience and the way that they took time off together to be a really well-rounded candidate.
所以，这是非常丰富的两年，我可以通过很多方式看到他们带来过去的经验以及他们一起休假的方式，成为一名真正全面的候选人。
Austin Hay: So, I would say I look less for red flags and more for false identifiers on the resume application that may shortcut me towards the decision.
Austin Hay：所以，我想说的是，我在简历申请中较少关注危险信号，而更多关注可能会缩短我做出决定的虚假标识符。
Another one is just school people just look at your school where you went to undergrad or grad and they kind of make a decision one way or the other.
另一种是学校的人只是看看你读本科或研究生的学校，他们会以某种方式做出决定。
And I feel like that's also can be a really bad shortcut because there's some amazing founders, for example, who went to school as you maybe had never heard of.
我觉得这也可能是一条非常糟糕的捷径，因为有一些令人惊叹的创始人，例如，他们上过你可能从未听说过的学校。
Yeah, I know that's not a good way to answer the question, but I don't have a good way of looking for red flags, but I do tend to spend a lot of time on netting out of false flags.
是的，我知道这不是回答这个问题的好方法，但我没有寻找危险信号的好方法，但我确实倾向于花费大量时间来消除错误信号。
Lenny: That was a great way to answer the question.
莱尼：这是回答这个问题的好方法。
I want to move on to something totally different, and this isn't something I've been asking people, but I'm curious if there's something here then maybe if there is, I'll start asking this more regularly.
我想继续做一些完全不同的事情，这不是我一直在问人们的事情，但我很好奇这里是否有什么东西，那么也许如果有的话，我会开始更经常地问这个问题。
I'm curious if there's just any frameworks that you've found especially useful in your work or even life.
我很好奇是否有任何框架对您的工作甚至生活特别有用。
Does anything come to mind?
有什么想到的吗？
Austin Hay: One thing that I want to build, so if I ever build this, maybe it'll be a newsletter for you, is just a one-page doc of the most useful life frameworks and they're just the words, and so you obviously have to know them, but I feel like I come across really good frameworks all the time and then I forget them.
Austin Hay：我想要构建的一件事，所以如果我构建了这个，也许它会成为你的时事通讯，只是最有用的生活框架的一页文档，它们只是文字，所以你显然必须了解它们，但我觉得我一直遇到非常好的框架，然后我就忘记了它们。
So, I just want a one pager of Lenny's Life frameworks.
所以，我只想要一个 Lenny's Life 框架的寻呼机。
Lenny: Okay, we're starting this right now.
莱尼：好的，我们现在就开始。
Austin Hay: Okay, so I've already said this and you've promised to put this at the top of the list, so I'm really excited.
Austin Hay：好的，我已经说过了，而且您也承诺将其放在首位，所以我真的很兴奋。
It's just tools are meant to solve problems and I tell that to every person I hire.
工具只是用来解决问题的，我告诉我雇用的每个人。
I repeat it consistently at Ramp and all of my consulting gigs.
我在 Ramp 和我所有的咨询工作中不断重复这一点。
And it's not just the words, it's the spirit of it.
这不仅仅是言语，更是其精神。
Tools are really just meant to solve problems.
工具其实只是用来解决问题的。
You don't have to buy a tool to solve the problem.
您不必购买工具来解决问题。
You also don't have to buy a specific tool to solve the problem.
您也不必购买特定的工具来解决问题。
And I think it embodies so much of what marketing technology is trying to do.
我认为它体现了营销技术正在努力做的事情。
It's trying to help people understand their problems and then actually take action on them using tools and technology that are most first party and third party.
它试图帮助人们了解他们的问题，然后使用大多数第一方和第三方的工具和技术实际采取行动。
And most people just focus on the tool part and focus on the buying and integration part.
而大多数人只关注工具部分，而关注购买和集成部分。
Austin Hay: And so I think if you consistently remind yourself that tools are just meant to solve problems, then you really get into a space where you as a systems' person can be an advocate for your marketer or your product people.
Austin Hay：所以我认为，如果你不断提醒自己工具只是为了解决问题，那么你就真正进入了一个空间，在这个空间中，你作为系统人员可以成为营销人员或产品人员的倡导者。
I think sometimes there is a little bit of a tendency for people to think that people who manage and set up tools are just interested in managing and setting up tools, but really at the end of the day, we're trying to help people actually do stuff.
我认为有时人们倾向于认为管理和设置工具的人只是对管理和设置工具感兴趣，但实际上，归根结底，我们正在努力帮助人们实际做事。
Then there's this PPS framework that I talk about a lot, which is problem, people and system.
然后就是我讲得很多的PPS框架，就是问题、人、系统。
So, whenever there's a challenge that comes up like at Ramp or in a consulting gig, I like to first say what's the problem?
因此，每当在 Ramp 或咨询工作中出现挑战时，我喜欢首先说问题是什么？
Who are the people involved and what system does it impact?
涉及的人员有哪些？它会影响什么系统？
Usually because people just jump straight to the system.
通常是因为人们直接跳到系统。
They're like, hey, there's this problem, I just need to solve it with the tool.
他们说，嘿，有这个问题，我只需要用工具来解决它。
Hey, I'm trying to do X, Y, and Z.
嘿，我正在尝试做 X、Y 和 Z。
Can you just give me admin permission straight to the system?
你能直接给我系统的管理员权限吗？
Austin Hay: So, if you back up though first you understand the problem like, hey, what is this person trying to solve?
Austin Hay：所以，如果你首先了解这个问题，嘿，这个人想解决什么问题？
What is their discreet issue?
他们的谨慎问题是什么？
A great example is I'm a sales manager and I want to make it so that every time I hire somebody, I don't have to go through this really tough process of onboarding my staff.
一个很好的例子是，我是一名销售经理，我希望每次雇用某人时，我都不必经历这个非常艰难的员工入职过程。
All right, so that's the problem.
好吧，这就是问题所在。
Who are the people that involves, does the sales manager need permission from the CRO?
涉及哪些人？销售经理是否需要获得 CRO 的许可？
Do the sellers need to be trained?
卖家需要培训吗？
Is there some other confounding factor that we're not aware of why we don't want to just automate this thing?
是否还有其他一些我们不知道的混杂因素，为什么我们不想将这件事自动化？
Once you have an understanding of the people and the problems that you're trying to solve, then it's really, really easy to design the system to solve that.
一旦你了解了你想要解决的人和问题，那么设计系统来解决这个问题就真的非常容易了。
And so that's my number one framework for technologists in particular is like don't just jump to the system, think backwards, start with the people and the problem and then move to the system solution.
因此，这是我对技术人员的第一个框架，特别是不要只是跳转到系统，向后思考，从人员和问题开始，然后转向系统解决方案。
Austin Hay: And then another one that I've already mentioned too is it's B and B as opposed to BVB.
Austin Hay：我也已经提到过的另一件事是 B 和 B，而不是 BVB。
So, build and buy as opposed to build versus buy.
因此，构建并购买而不是构建与购买。
People all the time just think the second that you're talking about implementing a tool or procuring a solution, it's, Hey, I want to build this thing or I want to buy this really expensive thing.
人们总是在谈论实施工具或采购解决方案时想到，嘿，我想构建这个东西，或者我想购买这个非常昂贵的东西。
Build versus buy is a very narrowly constricting decision tree.
建造还是购买是一个非常狭窄的决策树。
If it's only build versus buy, then you've already made the decision that you can only do one or the other, which means you're already fighting somebody at your organization.
如果只是构建与购买，那么您已经做出了只能做其中之一的决定，这意味着您已经在与组织中的某人作斗争。
Build and buy means that both of you can win and you can actually create a solution that is not only unique but saves the company time and resources and makes everybody happy.
构建和购买意味着双方都可以获胜，并且实际上可以创建一个解决方案，该解决方案不仅是独特的，而且可以节省公司的时间和资源，并使每个人都满意。
It's more of a consensus driven approach.
这更多的是一种共识驱动的方法。
Whenever I hear in a meeting or a call or some discussion about how we have a tool and it's really expensive and we want to build in herself, I try to just use the build and buy framework to tee people up and say, what about the problem?
每当我在会议、电话或一些讨论中听到关于我们如何拥有一个工具并且它非常昂贵并且我们想要自行构建时，我会尝试使用构建和购买框架来让人们站起来并说，问题是什么？
Austin Hay: Can we buy?
奥斯汀·海伊：我们可以买吗？
What about the problem can we build?
我们可以构建什么问题？
And where does it make sense to invest our resources and our people accordingly to get the optimal outcome?
相应地投资我们的资源和人员以获得最佳结果有何意义？
A great example is a company that I was consulting for was thinking about building their own AB testing tool.
一个很好的例子是我所咨询的一家公司正在考虑构建自己的 AB 测试工具。
And actually we had the same problem at Ramp recently, and they're like, well, we just think we should build ourself.
事实上，我们最近在 Ramp 遇到了同样的问题，他们说，好吧，我们只是认为我们应该建立自己。
This is core to our technology.
这是我们技术的核心。
We have the engineering resources to do it.
我们有工程资源来做到这一点。
And they were evaluating it to build the entire system themselves or buy a third party, I think it was split.io or something like that.
他们正在对其进行评估，以自己构建整个系统或购买第三方，我认为是 split.io 或类似的东西。
And the entire engagement was basically designing a financial model to show them that they could make a lot more money, save money, move faster if they just bought the third party tool at the lowest possible cost and spent all of their resources that they were going to spend building it, building around it and making it their own.
整个过程基本上就是设计一个财务模型，向他们表明，如果他们以尽可能低的成本购买第三方工具，并花费所有资源来构建它、围绕它构建并使其成为自己的工具，他们就可以赚更多的钱、省钱、更快地行动。
And there's lots of, I hate the word synergy, it's just so yucky.
还有很多，我讨厌“协同”这个词，它太令人讨厌了。
Lenny: I don't mind it.
莱尼：我不介意。
I think it communicates what you want to communicate, and I feel like people don't say it as often anymore, so maybe it's okay.
我认为它传达了你想要传达的信息，而且我觉得人们不再经常这么说，所以也许没关系。
Austin Hay: Yeah, because they're afraid.
Austin Hay：是的，因为他们害怕。
There are mutual benefits is a better way of saying it, if you build a tool custom to yourself when you've bought a tool because the vendor at that point is committed to you and they want you to be successful, so you often can get accelerated outcomes if you build on top of a third party than if you just build it yourself.
互惠互利是一种更好的说法，如果您在购买工具时构建了一个为自己定制的工具，因为此时供应商对您做出了承诺，他们希望您取得成功，因此，如果您在第三方之上构建，而不是自己构建，通常可以获得更快的结果。
A great example is say you buy one of these AB testing tools and you build around it and you're a large customer of them, but you've invested a lot of your own engineering resources to make this solution your own.
一个很好的例子是，您购买了其中一种 AB 测试工具，并围绕它进行构建，并且您是它们的大客户，但您已经投入了大量自己的工程资源来使该解决方案成为您自己的解决方案。
Austin Hay: If they know that and they care about you, they're going to be willing to actually make you happy in the moments where you need a change from them, say some SDK change or a new feature or something like that.
Austin Hay：如果他们知道这一点并且关心你，那么当你需要他们做出改变时，比如一些 SDK 更改或新功能或类似的事情，他们会愿意让你感到高兴。
A framework that I talk a lot about in my Reforge course is about building a stack.
我在 Reforge 课程中经常谈论的一个框架是关于构建堆栈的。
Everybody asks, hey, how do I build my stack?
每个人都会问，嘿，我如何构建我的堆栈？
What should I do?
我应该怎么办？
What tool should I use?
我应该使用什么工具？
Even you earlier were like, what's the golden stack?
甚至您之前也会想，什么是黄金堆栈？
Tell me what five tools should I get?
告诉我我应该获得哪五种工具？
Austin Hay: Yeah, yeah.
奥斯汀·海伊：是的，是的。
I'll tell you at the very end, I got to hold out.
最后我会告诉你，我必须坚持下去。
Otherwise, you'll ditch this podcast.
否则，你就会放弃这个播客。
Lenny: That's right.
莱尼：没错。
Yeah.
是的。
Wait until the end.
等到最后。
Is there anything else you want to share before we get to our very exciting lightning round?
在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想分享的吗？
Austin Hay: The only thing I had wanted to fit in, which I feel like is maybe a framework or maybe just a really good decision-making philosophy is this concept of thinking gray.
Austin Hay：我唯一想要融入的东西，我觉得它可能是一个框架，或者可能只是一个非常好的决策哲学，就是灰色思维的概念。
Have you heard of it before?
你以前听说过吗？
Austin Hay: Okay.
奥斯汀·海伊：好的。
So, Steven B.
所以，史蒂文·B.
Sample is a professor at USC.
样本是南加州大学的教授。
He wrote a book called The Contrarian's Guide to Leadership, really great book.
他写了一本叫做《逆向领导力指南》的书，真是一本很棒的书。
It's one of his principles.
这是他的原则之一。
There's actually a lot of great principles in the book, but this is the one that I think has stuck with me the most in my career.
书中实际上有很多伟大的原则，但我认为这是我职业生涯中最深刻的原则。
And the concept of thinking gray is so often in life and in our jobs, we are forced to make decisions very quickly.
灰色思维的概念在生活和工作中经常出现，我们被迫很快做出决定。
We have to think black or white about a problem set or a solution, and then decide.
我们必须对一组问题或解决方案进行黑白思考，然后做出决定。
One of his tactics is this concept of thinking gray, which is actually to not decide for as long as you possibly can before you have to decide.
他的策略之一就是灰色思维的概念，这实际上是在必须做出决定之前尽可能长时间地不做决定。
It's really challenging because it involves this little thing called patience, which I do not have a lot of, most of the time, and I know most people don't as well.
这真的很有挑战性，因为它涉及到一种叫做耐心的小东西，而我在大多数时候都没有很多耐心，而且我知道大多数人也没有。
But it's particularly really relevant in systems thinking and product because so often we believe that we have to make a decision because our boss is telling us because there's an OPR, because we feel the pain because somebody's complaining to me.
但这与系统思维和产品特别相关，因为我们经常相信我们必须做出决定，因为我们的老板告诉我们，因为有 OPR，因为我们感到痛苦，因为有人向我抱怨。
Austin Hay: But actually in reality, you don't have to make a decision at all.
Austin Hay：但实际上，你根本不必做出决定。
You can just let it sit for a while.
你可以让它静置一会儿。
And this also applies to, I think, how you move through the world and view people.
我认为这也适用于你如何穿越世界和看待他人。
A lot of times we will meet somebody in a company setting or in a business setting, and we are quick to make decisions about them.
很多时候，我们会在公司或商业环境中遇到某人，我们很快就会对他们做出决定。
We even asked me questions about how I hire people very quickly.
我们甚至问我如何快速招聘人员的问题。
We're looking for shortcuts to make decisions about evaluating people.
我们正在寻找做出评估人员决策的捷径。
One of the best pieces of advice though about thinking gray is it gives you the grace to not decide about people until you have to decide.
关于灰色思维的最好建议之一是，它可以让你在必须做出决定之前不要对人做出决定。
So, obviously for an interview decision, you have to decide.
所以，显然对于面试决定，你必须做出决定。
Austin Hay: You have to decide yes or no. But so often you'll come across people and you'll meet them once or twice.
Austin Hay：你必须决定是或否。但你经常会遇到一些人，而且只会遇到一两次。
And I feel like there's this tendency in the back of everybody's brain to be like, do I like this person?
我觉得每个人的大脑深处都有这样的倾向：我喜欢这个人吗？
Do I want to work with them?
我想和他们一起工作吗？
And the question often is not that it's do you have to even make a decision right now?
问题通常不是你现在就必须做出决定吗？
And by leaving yourself to have space to decide, you actually open up the possibility that in the future you'll make a better decision.
通过给自己留出决定的空间，你实际上开启了未来做出更好决定的可能性。
So, I think that's a really good lesson for systems, and it's obviously a lesson that you can apply to the rest of your life too.
所以，我认为这对系统来说是一个非常好的教训，而且显然这也是一个你可以应用到你余生的教训。
Lenny: Austin, that was awesome.
莱尼：奥斯汀，太棒了。
And with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
I've got six questions for you.
我有六个问题要问你。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny: What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?
莱尼：你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？
Austin Hay: So, first book I already mentioned, but say it again.
奥斯汀·海伊：所以，我已经提到过第一本书，但再说一遍。
It's The Contrarians Guide to Leadership awesome book.
这是一本很棒的书《逆向领导力指南》。
Second book that would be really good is the Art and Adventure of Leadership by a guy name Warren Bennis.
第二本非常好的书是沃伦·本尼斯（Warren Bennis）写的《领导力的艺术与冒险》。
And these are more philosophically leadership books.
这些都是更具哲学意义的领导力书籍。
They're less about technical specs on how to run a business.
它们不太关注如何经营企业的技术规范。
So, you have to be into that.
所以，你必须参与其中。
Lenny: Favorite recent movie or TV show.
莱尼：最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目。
Austin Hay: I'm currently watching for the first time Suits, which I'd never seen before, which I think is pretty good because the story arc of every Suits episode is that there's a problem.
Austin Hay：我现在正在看《金装律师》，这是我以前从未看过的，我认为这很好，因为《金装律师》每一集的故事情节都是有问题的。
Then they solve the problem and then the problem is solved at the end.
然后他们解决问题，最后问题就解决了。
So, it's very gratifying for anybody out there who's a high anxiety person who just wants to have this story arc resolved at the end of the episode.
因此，对于那些高度焦虑、只想在剧集结束时解决这个故事的人来说，这是非常令人欣慰的。
But if that's not your jam and you like excitement, also watching Silo, Witcher.
但如果这不是你的兴趣，并且你喜欢刺激，也可以观看《Silo》、《巫师》。
For comic relief, there's Our Flag Means Death, which is hilarious.
喜剧方面，还有《我们的旗帜意味着死亡》，非常搞笑。
Have you seen that show?
你看过那个节目吗？
Austin Hay: Now you need to go watch it.
Austin Hay：现在你需要去看它。
It's about black beard and gay pirate captain.
这是关于黑胡子和同性恋海盗船长的故事。
So, strongly recommend that.
所以，强烈推荐。
And then for just really dumb comedy, What We Do in the Shadows is hilarious.
对于真正愚蠢的喜剧来说，我们在阴影中所做的事情很搞笑。
Lenny: What was that?
莱尼：那是什么？
What We Do in the Shadows?
我们在阴影中做什么？
Lenny: Okay.
莱尼：好的。
Wow, a lot of recommendations.
哇，好多推荐。
Thank you for that.
谢谢你。
What is a favorite interview question you like to ask candidates?
您最喜欢问候选人的面试问题是什么？
Austin Hay: So, I talked about what you did to prepare, but the other one that I think is really good because it forces people to get vulnerable is tell me about the most difficult or challenging thing you've overcome in the last year in your life.
奥斯汀·海伊：所以，我谈到了你做了哪些准备，但我认为非常好的另一件事是告诉我你在生命的最后一年中克服的最困难或最具挑战性的事情，因为它迫使人们变得脆弱。
It doesn't have to be work related, it could be personal.
它不一定与工作相关，也可以是个人的。
And I think it's a great way to just reset the atmosphere, make people dig a little bit deeper into who they are and be more vulnerable.
我认为这是一个很好的方式来重置气氛，让人们更深入地了解自己是谁，并变得更加脆弱。
And I find usually it also helps calm them down because if they shared them one of the most challenging, difficult, and hard parts of their life, then all the other questions just are pretty easy.
我发现这通常也有助于让他们平静下来，因为如果他们分享了他们生活中最具挑战性、最困难和最困难的部分之一，那么所有其他问题都非常简单。
So, that's one of my favorites.
所以，这是我的最爱之一。
Lenny: What is a favorite product that you've recently discovered that you really like?
Lenny：您最近发现并且真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品是什么？
Austin Hay: This sounds super dumb.
Austin Hay：这听起来超级愚蠢。
It's called cal.com, and I'll tell you the story first.
它叫 cal.com，我先告诉你这个故事。
I've been a big Calendly user for a long time, but Calendly is pretty expensive.
我长期以来一直是 Calendly 的大用户，但 Calendly 相当昂贵。
If Calendly is listening, you want to give me promo, cool.
如果 Calendly 正在听，你想给我宣传，很好。
But it's very expensive.
但它非常昂贵。
And then I also just found that it is not always graceful at syncing multiple calendars from both businesses and consulting gigs and personal, and I had trouble remembering my Calendly link.
然后我还发现，同步来自企业、咨询演出和个人的多个日历并不总是很优雅，而且我很难记住我的 Calendly 链接。
I don't know.
我不知道。
The interface is like circa 2016.
界面就像 2016 年左右。
So, really looking for something a little bit more notion like with a Command K interface and just integrations that work.
因此，我们确实在寻找一些更多的概念，例如 Command K 界面以及有效的集成。
And cal.com has not failed me.
cal.com 也没有让我失望。
It has been awesome.
太棒了。
So, if people are looking for new Calendly tools, strongly recommend.
因此，如果人们正在寻找新的 Calendly 工具，强烈推荐。
Lenny: Wow, I never heard of this.
莱尼：哇，我从来没有听说过这个。
What a great domain, cal.com.
cal.com 真是一个很棒的域名。
Lenny: What is a favorite life motto that you often repeat to yourself or share with other people, either in work or in life?
Lenny：无论是在工作还是生活中，您经常对自己重复或与他人分享的最喜欢的人生格言是什么？
Austin Hay: I just think a lot about the power of appreciation, and one thing that I've just been thinking a lot about recently is the challenge that people might be facing in their daily lives.
Austin Hay：我对欣赏的力量思考了很多，最近我思考了很多的一件事是人们在日常生活中可能面临的挑战。
I actually was recently listening to another podcast by Adam Fishman, and he had Brian Balfour on.
事实上，我最近正在听 Adam Fishman 的另一个播客，他邀请了 Brian Balfour 来播客。
And Adam's basically just interviewing a bunch of dads, which is cool.
亚当基本上只是采访了一群爸爸，这很酷。
But the nice thing about being a little bit older in your life being a dad is that you maybe have seen hardship before.
但作为一名父亲，年纪大一点的好处是，你可能以前见过困难。
And this podcast is great at just exploring the stories of people who I really admire and go through their hardship.
这个播客非常擅长探索我真正钦佩的人和经历他们的困难的人的故事。
And in that it's been a very profound experience, understanding the type of challenges that people have gone through in their lives, people who have lost mothers and fathers early in life, people who have lost children.
这是一次非常深刻的经历，了解人们在生活中经历过的挑战，了解早年失去父母的人们，失去孩子的人们。
I myself, my wife and I lost her dad last year.
我本人、我的妻子和我去年失去了她的父亲。
Austin Hay: We lost two grandparents to COVID, we lost our dog.
奥斯汀·海伊：我们因新冠病毒失去了两位祖父母，我们失去了我们的狗。
So, I think that the way that it ties to appreciation is if you can understand what people are going through and you start to view them a little bit more as a human and understand what's beneath the surface of work, who are they?
所以，我认为，它与欣赏的联系方式是，如果你能理解人们正在经历什么，你开始更多地把他们视为一个人，并了解工作表面之下的东西，他们是谁？
What do they care about?
他们关心什么？
What are the things that are driving their life forward?
是什么推动他们的生活前进？
It just makes you so much more appreciative for what you have and the good moments when they're actually there.
它只会让你更加感激你所拥有的以及它们真正存在的美好时刻。
And this doesn't just apply to life.
这不仅仅适用于生活。
It's also like business too.
这也像生意一样。
It makes winning a lot more fun when you know the hell that people have gone through.
当你了解人们经历过的地狱时，获胜会变得更加有趣。
That's just something I like to talk a lot about with people, especially folks who are younger in their careers who maybe have only seen wins describing what the losses look like so they can picture in their mind and then have some experience when they go through it.
这就是我喜欢与人们谈论的话题，尤其是那些职业生涯较年轻的人，他们可能只看到过胜利描述了失败的样子，这样他们就可以在脑海中想象，然后在经历失败时获得一些经验。
It's a big part of my shtick.
这是我的一大特色。
Lenny: What an excellent answer.
莱尼：多么好的答案啊。
I am definitely going to keep asking this question.
我肯定会继续问这个问题。
For people who are still listening here is the promised Golden Stack.
对于仍在此处收听的人来说，是承诺的 Golden Stack。
Austin Hay: Okay, so Golden Stack.
Austin Hay：好的，那就是 Golden Stack。
If I was a B2C business, I'd buy Amplitude for my CDP, I'd buy customer IO and maybe I'd upgrade to Braze in the future.
如果我是一家 B2C 企业，我会为我的 CDP 购买 Amplitude，我会购买客户 IO，也许将来我会升级到 Braze。
I put everything in Snowflake, I'd buy high touch to reverse ETL, all that data out to my ad networks.
我把所有东西都放在 Snowflake 中，我会购买 high touch 来反转 ETL，将所有数据发送到我的广告网络。
For attribution, probably AppsFlyer from a mobile app, if not Branch, but it'd probably be AppsFlyer first.
对于归因，可能是来自移动应用程序的 AppsFlyer（如果不是 Branch），但可能首先是 AppsFlyer。
So, that gets you, you got AppsFlyer, Amplitude as your CDP and product analytics, Customer IO for email.
因此，您可以使用 AppsFlyer、Amplitude 作为 CDP 和产品分析，以及用于电子邮件的 Customer IO。
Snowflake for your data warehouse, Hightouch for streaming all the data tools.
Snowflake 用于数据仓库，Hightouch 用于流式传输所有数据工具。
That's like golden stack today if I were implementing it for a B2C business.
如果我为 B2C 业务实施它，这就像今天的黄金堆栈。
For B2B, roughly the same, Amplitude.
对于 B2B，大致相同，Amplitude。
If you need an attribution tool, if it's B2B, actually, if it's a web only business, probably we use Branch because Branch is better for web.
如果您需要一个归因工具，如果是 B2B，实际上，如果它是纯 Web 业务，我们可能会使用 Branch，因为 Branch 更适合 Web。
Austin Hay: So, you have Branch, Amplitude, connect all the data to Salesforce.
Austin Hay：所以，你有 Branch、Amplitude，将所有数据连接到 Salesforce。
Hopefully at some point in time somebody builds a better Salesforce.
希望在某个时候有人能够构建出更好的 Salesforce。
That'll be for our next podcast though, Lenny, can't cover that today.
不过，这将是我们下一个播客的内容，莱尼，今天无法涵盖这一点。
And then reverse ETL is Hightouch.
然后逆向ETL就是Hightouch。
So, very similar except the only difference is what do you do for an email tool?
所以，非常相似，除了唯一的区别是你用电子邮件工具做什么？
A lot of people use HubSpot.
很多人使用 HubSpot。
I would try to go away with Customer IO as long as I could and then I'd move to Braze afterwards.
我会尽可能长时间地尝试放弃 Customer IO，然后再转向 Braze。
So, a big difference is just Braze versus Customer IO for B2B.
因此，一个很大的区别就是 B2B 的 Braze 与 Customer IO。
Lenny: Final question for you.
莱尼：最后一个问题。
I heard that you're a drone pilot and I'm curious, what is the coolest place you've flown your drone or the coolest thing that's happened with your drone?
我听说您是一名无人机飞行员，我很好奇，您驾驶无人机最酷的地方是什么，或者您的无人机发生过的最酷的事情是什么？
Austin Hay: So, this actually gets back to our intellectual curiosity thing.
Austin Hay：所以，这实际上又回到了我们的求知欲问题。
Maybe I just search for weird people when I hire because I just love when people do interesting things that are unrelated to work.
也许我在招聘时只是寻找奇怪的人，因为我只是喜欢人们做与工作无关的有趣事情。
And the story is during COVID, I didn't really want to just better myself online through a bunch of educational platforms.
故事发生在新冠疫情期间，我真的不想通过一堆教育平台在网上提高自己。
I just felt like it would be a little bit soul crushing to sit in front of my computer screen and learn how to do statistics or whatever.
我只是觉得坐在电脑屏幕前学习如何进行统计或其他什么会有点让人心碎。
So, I was trying to look for things that were interesting, niche, outside of my domain knew nothing about.
所以，我试图寻找一些有趣的、利基的、在我的领域之外一无所知的东西。
And the three that I came up with were, I learned to fly a drone.
我想到的三个是，我学会了驾驶无人机。
I became a CFP, certified financial planner and I became a notary.
我成为了一名 CFP、认证财务规划师，还成为了一名公证人。
And it's just because they seemed really useful things that had nothing to do with my work and would learn about something completely interesting and different.
这只是因为它们看起来非常有用，与我的工作无关，并且会学到一些完全有趣和不同的东西。
Austin Hay: So, those are the three that I chose.
Austin Hay：所以，这就是我选择的三个。
The drone stuff, it actually was funny.
无人机的东西，实际上很有趣。
I started flying here in DC.
我开始在华盛顿这里飞行。
I live in Virginia, but maybe a mile outside of Washington DC and around DC there's a restricted air zone.
我住在弗吉尼亚州，但距华盛顿特区一英里，华盛顿特区周围有一个空中禁区。
And so after I did my FA drone pilot license and I became a certified drone pilot, I really went down the rabbit hole of trying to figure out how to fly a drone in DC, because I've seen them around, but obviously it's a national security and I'm probably dramatically mutilating the exact experience.
因此，在我获得 FA 无人机飞行员执照并成为一名经过认证的无人机飞行员之后，我真的陷入了试图弄清楚如何在华盛顿驾驶无人机的兔子洞，因为我已经在周围见过它们，但显然这是国家安全，我可能会极大地破坏确切的体验。
But as I went to do this, it was very complicated, archaic, but also funny because it was all online.
但当我去做这件事时，它非常复杂、过时，但也很有趣，因为它都是在线的。
You have to go file out a form, you get a letter from a local representative who says you're in good standing.
您必须填写一份表格，然后您会收到当地代表的一封信，信中说您信誉良好。
So, we found a councilman that I just knew.
所以，我们找到了一位我刚刚认识的议员。
And then you have to fill out all the stuff.
然后你必须填写所有的东西。
Austin Hay: This paperwork, the site looks like it's from 1994.
Austin Hay：这份文件、网站看起来像是 1994 年的。
There's an office literally in DC where a person approves you.
华盛顿确实有一个办公室，有人在那里批准你。
Then you have to let go and get a police officer to effectively babysit you while you fly this drone.
然后你必须放手让一名警察在你驾驶这架无人机时有效地照顾你。
And so I did all that and I got to the point where I was going to get babysat and I called our local police department and I was like, yeah.
所以我做了所有这些，我到了要请保姆的地步，我打电话给当地警察局，我说，是的。
So, I talked to the office, I just need an officer to come out and meet at this time.
所以，我跟办公室说，我只需要一个官员在这个时候出来会面。
And they just laughed me off the phone.
他们只是在电话里嘲笑我。
Austin Hay: They're like, we're not going to send a police officer to watch you fly a drone.
奥斯汀·海伊：他们就像，我们不会派警察来观看你驾驶无人机。
And I just thought the thing was really funny because yeah, it makes sense.
我只是觉得这件事真的很有趣，因为是的，这是有道理的。
Why would they waste taxpayer dollars to have me fly a drone?
他们为什么要浪费纳税人的钱让我驾驶无人机？
But it was a requirement.
但这是一个要求。
So, I ended up not being able to fly this drone in DC.
所以，我最终无法在华盛顿驾驶这架无人机。
But if anybody's listening and they know how to fly a drone and they want to fly, I would be totally down.
但如果有人在听并且他们知道如何驾驶无人机并且他们想飞，我会完全沮丧。
I have two drones.
我有两架无人机。
I have a Mavic Air 2 and a Skydio Enterprise, which Skydio is a really cool company as well if people are looking for drones.
我有一台 Mavic Air 2 和一台 Skydio Enterprise，如果人们正在寻找无人机，那么 Skydio 也是一家非常酷的公司。
Lenny: Okay, so you're saying if people have an awesome drone and they live in Virginia, they should come contact you and fly some drones together?
莱尼：好的，所以你是说如果人们拥有一架很棒的无人机并且他们住在弗吉尼亚州，他们应该联系你并一起驾驶一些无人机？
Austin Hay: Yeah, exactly.
奥斯汀·海伊：是的，完全正确。
Exactly.
确切地。
But just not in DC.
但只是不在华盛顿。
Lenny: All right.
莱尼：好吧。
Well, Austin, I think we delivered on the promise of making this extremely nerdy and in the weeds, and I think we've solved a lot of people's problems.
好吧，奥斯汀，我认为我们兑现了让这个极其书呆子和杂草丛生的承诺，我认为我们已经解决了很多人的问题。
I feel a lot of gratitude for you, and I feel like we taught a lot of people about MarTech, which was my goal.
我非常感谢你们，我觉得我们教了很多人关于 MarTech 的知识，这就是我的目标。
So, thank you again for being here.
所以，再次感谢您来到这里。
Two final questions.
最后两个问题。
Where can folks find you online if they want to ask you more questions?
如果人们想问您更多问题，可以在哪里找到您？
And how can listeners be useful to you other than coming to fly drones with you?
除了和你一起驾驶无人机之外，听众还能对你有什么用处呢？
Austin Hay: So, first find me online LinkedIn.
Austin Hay：所以，首先在 LinkedIn 上找到我。
Threads, I actually have Threads.
线程，我实际上有线程。
I don't have Twitter, like hot take, I think Twitter ruins people's careers.
我没有 Twitter，就像热门话题一样，我认为 Twitter 毁了人们的职业生涯。
I've already seen multiple careers ruined by Twitter.
我已经看到很多人的职业生涯被 Twitter 毁掉了。
Some people just don't know how to shut their mouth.
有些人就是不知道如何闭嘴。
So, I'm not on Twitter, but I am on Threads and I'm trying to figure it out.
所以，我不在 Twitter 上，但在 Threads 上，并且正在尝试解决这个问题。
So, if you want to document Threads, you can.
所以，如果你想记录线程，你可以。
I'm on LinkedIn and then I have my email address on LinkedIn too, and I'm always willing to talk to people.
我在 LinkedIn 上，然后我也在 LinkedIn 上有我的电子邮件地址，而且我总是愿意与人们交谈。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
And is there any way listeners can be useful to you?
听众有什么方法可以对你有用吗？
Austin Hay: Yes.
奥斯汀·海伊：是的。
I have a marketing technology course coming out with Reforge in the fall.
我将在秋季与 Reforge 合作推出一门营销技术课程。
If you're a practitioner of MarTech or you're interested in MarTech, would totally love for you to take the course, would love to your feedback in particular.
如果您是 MarTech 的从业者或者您对 MarTech 感兴趣，非常希望您参加该课程，特别希望您的反馈。
I love to stand on this podcast and act like I know a lot about MarTech, but I'm still learning.
我喜欢站在这个播客上，表现得好像我对 MarTech 了解很多，但我仍在学习。
And so I think it would be awesome to just get feedback from the community about what was interesting and helpful, what wasn't there, and we can improve upon.
因此，我认为如果能从社区获得有关哪些内容有趣、有用、哪些内容不存在以及我们可以改进的反馈，那就太棒了。
And then the other thing is, if you're ever looking for MarTech help and you want to reach out, that's great.
另一件事是，如果您正在寻求 MarTech 帮助并且想要伸出援手，那就太好了。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
Austin, thank you again so much for being here.
奥斯汀，再次非常感谢你来到这里。
Austin Hay: Thank you for having me, Lenny.
奥斯汀·海伊：谢谢你邀请我，莱尼。
It was a pleasure.
这是一种乐趣。
Lenny: The pleasure was all mine.
莱尼：我很高兴。
Bye everyone.
再见大家。
Thank you so much for listening.
非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。