How to speak more confidently and persuasively | Matt Abrahams (professor, speaker, author)
Archie Abrams: When you have teams naturally break up the world into different funnel stages or different points in the journey, it gets very seductive to look at my part of the funnel and what's my conversion rate through that part of the funnel, right?
Archie Abrams：当你的团队自然地将世界分解为不同的漏斗阶段或旅程中的不同点时，查看我的漏斗部分以及我通过漏斗部分的转化率是非常诱人的，对吧？
And then the team starts to optimize for that conversion rate as their north star.
然后团队开始优化转化率作为他们的北极星。
But in practice, it's actually almost always easier to just make it harder to do the thing right before your step in the funnel to increase your conversion rate.
但在实践中，实际上，在进入漏斗之前让事情变得更难以提高转化率几乎总是更容易。
Instead of I'm trying to convert a bunch of people, I just want more people to get activated.
我不是想改变一群人，而是想让更多的人被激活。
Archie Abrams: And then once you start thinking that way, you realize actually the best way to get more people to get to a step is just get more people in the door in the first place.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：一旦你开始这样思考，你就会意识到，实际上让更多人迈出一步的最佳方法就是首先让更多人进来。
That will always hurt your conversion rate, but it may actually give you more people on the outside.
这总是会损害你的转化率，但实际上可能会给你带来更多的外部人员。
Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Archie Abrams.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：今天我的客人是阿奇·艾布拉姆斯。
Archie is VP of product and head of growth at Shopify, where he leads an org of over 600 people across product, design, engineering, data ops, and growth marketing.
Archie 是 Shopify 的产品副总裁兼增长主管，他领导着一个由 600 多人组成的组织，涉及产品、设计、工程、数据运营和增长营销。
Shopify is both an incredibly unique and also an incredibly successful business, and they do things very differently.
Shopify 既是一家非常独特的企业，也是一家非常成功的企业，而且他们做事的方式也非常不同。
And as a result, there's a lot that we can learn from how they approach building product and driving growth.
因此，我们可以从他们如何构建产品和推动增长中学到很多东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: Some examples include their priorities in product roadmap are driven by a 100-year vision that comes from Tobi, the CEO.
Lenny Rachitsky：一些例子包括他们在产品路线图中的优先事项是由首席执行官 Tobi 的 100 年愿景驱动的。
And the core product teams don't have metrics or KPIs.
而且核心产品团队没有指标或 KPI。
They're essentially banned.
他们基本上被禁止了。
And instead, decisions are made based on taste, and intuition, and building towards this long-term vision.
相反，决策是根据品味和直觉做出的，并朝着这一长期愿景迈进。
Also, the growth team optimizes for churn, which is unlike any other company I've ever come across.
此外，增长团队针对客户流失进行了优化，这与我遇到过的任何其他公司不同。
And once you hear why, this will make a lot of sense.
一旦你明白了原因，就会明白这一点。
Lenny Rachitsky: Also, they keep long-term holdouts for every experiment they run, and they automatically look at the impact these experiments have had on the business a year later, two years later, and three years later, and then revisit these decisions down the road.
Lenny Rachitsky：此外，他们对每次进行的实验都保持长期坚持，并且他们会自动观察这些实验在一年后、两年后和三年后对业务产生的影响，然后在未来重新审视这些决定。
Lenny Rachitsky: And in our conversation, we dig into all of this plus how Shopify organizes their growth team, how they run experiments, how the growth team collaborates with the product team, how they measure impact.
Lenny Rachitsky：在我们的谈话中，我们深入探讨了所有这些，以及 Shopify 如何组织他们的增长团队、他们如何进行实验、增长团队如何与产品团队协作以及他们如何衡量影响力。
Plus, Archie shares a bunch of very specific and interesting examples of changes that have driven growth for the business and so much more.
此外，Archie 分享了一系列非常具体且有趣的变革示例，这些变革推动了业务增长等等。
This is such a fascinating conversation, and I know this will give you a lot to think about in terms of how you run and organize your own product and growth teams.
这是一次非常有趣的对话，我知道这会让你在如何运营和组织自己的产品和增长团队方面有很多思考。
If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。
It's the best way to avoid missing feature episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously.
这是避免错过专题节目的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。
With that, I bring you Archie Abrams.
接下来，我为您带来阿奇·艾布拉姆斯。
Lenny Rachitsky: Archie, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.
Lenny Rachitsky：Archie，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。
Lenny Rachitsky: Excited to be here.
Lenny Rachitsky：很高兴来到这里。
Okay, so what I want to do with our time together is to basically do kind of a living archeology of how Shopify grows and what you specifically have learned about growing a company like Shopify into this just juggernaut of a business that it's turned into.
好的，所以我想用我们在一起的时间做的基本上是对 Shopify 的成长方式进行一次活生生的考古，以及您在如何将像 Shopify 这样的公司发展成为如此庞大的业务方面具体学到了什么。
To give people a little bit of a sense of just how large Shopify has gotten, so maybe surprising them about the scale of this company at this point.
为了让人们稍微了解 Shopify 的规模有多大，所以也许他们对这家公司目前的规模感到惊讶。
Could you share some stats about the scale of the business at this point?
您能否分享一些有关目前业务规模的统计数据？
Archie Abrams: Yeah, absolutely.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：是的，绝对是。
So overall, we're about 10% of e-commerce in the United States.
总体而言，我们约占美国电子商务市场的 10%。
So basically if you're not buying an Amazon or Walmart, you're probably buying on a Shopify-powered store.
因此，基本上，如果您不是在亚马逊或沃尔玛购买商品，那么您可能会在 Shopify 支持的商店上购买商品。
And behind the scenes globally, we did about 235 billion in GMV in 2023, which is roughly the size of the economy of Finland.
而在全球幕后，我们在 2023 年的 GMV 约为 2350 亿美元，大约相当于芬兰的经济规模。
So we've got a big economy and big impact happening from Shopify.
Shopify 为我们带来了巨大的经济和巨大的影响。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。
I think interestingly with Shopify, it's kind of this behind the scenes tool, and so I imagine many people have no idea they're using Shopify a lot of time when they're buying stuff online, and I think some of these numbers kind of creep up on people with just how large a company like Shopify has gotten.
我认为 Shopify 很有趣，它是一种幕后工具，所以我想很多人都不知道他们在网上购物时使用了很多时间 Shopify，而且我认为其中一些数字会慢慢地让人们知道像 Shopify 这样的公司已经有多大。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Explo, a game changer for customer facing analytics and data reporting.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Explo 为您带来，Explo 是面向客户的分析和数据报告的游戏规则改变者。
Are your users craving more dashboards, reports, and analytics within your product?
您的用户是否渴望在您的产品中提供更多仪表板、报告和分析？
Are you tired of trying to build it yourself?
您是否厌倦了尝试自己构建它？
As a product leader, you probably have these requests on your roadmap, but the struggle to prioritize them is real.
作为产品领导者，您的路线图上可能有这些请求，但确定它们的优先级的困难是真实存在的。
Building analytics from scratch can be time-consuming, expensive, and a really challenging process.
从头开始构建分析可能非常耗时、昂贵，而且是一个非常具有挑战性的过程。
Enter Explo.
输入爆炸。
Explo is a fully white labeled embedded analytics solution designed entirely with your user in mind.
Explo 是一款完全白标的嵌入式分析解决方案，其设计完全考虑到您的用户。
Lenny Rachitsky: Getting started is easy.
Lenny Rachitsky：入门很容易。
Explo connects to any relational database or warehouse.
Explo 连接到任何关系数据库或仓库。
And with its low-code functionality, you can build and style dashboards in minutes.
凭借其低代码功能，您可以在几分钟内构建和设计仪表板。
Once you're ready, simply embed the dashboard or report into your application with a tiny code snippet.
准备就绪后，只需使用一小段代码将仪表板或报告嵌入到您的应用程序中即可。
The best part, your end users can use Explo's AI features for their own report and dashboard generation, eliminating customer data requests for your support team.
最好的部分是，您的最终用户可以使用 Explo 的 AI 功能来生成自己的报告和仪表板，从而消除对支持团队的客户数据请求。
Build and embed a fully white labeled analytics experience in days.
在几天内构建并嵌入完全白标的分析体验。
Try for free at explo.co/lenny.
请访问 explo.co/lenny 免费试用。
That's E-X-P-L-O dot C-O slash Lenny.
这是 E-X-P-L-O 点 C-O 斜线 Lenny。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Dovetail, the AI first customer insights hub for all teams.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Dovetail 为您带来，Dovetail 是面向所有团队的人工智能第一客户洞察中心。
Dovetail has always been the go-to tool for teams who want to find insights in customer calls, user interviews, or documents.
对于想要在客户电话、用户访谈或文档中寻找见解的团队来说，Dovetail 一直是首选工具。
Now they've stepped it up with the release of Dovetail 3.0.
现在，他们发布了 Dovetail 3.0，进一步加强了这一点。
that's three new products and a ton of AI features that make it faster and easier than ever before to truly get at the heart of what your customers want.
这三款新产品和大量人工智能功能使您能够比以往更快、更轻松地真正了解客户的核心需求。
You can get a real-time pulse on what your customers are thinking with Dovetail's, automated feedback analysis platform, channels, or pull summaries and insights from every customer interaction your team has ever had with their AI chatbot Ask Dovetail.
您可以通过 Dovetail 的自动反馈分析平台、渠道实时了解客户的想法，或者从您的团队与 AI 聊天机器人 Ask Dovetail 进行的每次客户互动中获取摘要和见解。
You can even recruit from over 3 million participants directly in Dovetail.
您甚至可以直接在 Dovetail 中从超过 300 万参与者中招募。
All this is just the tip of the Iceberg.
这一切只是冰山一角。
Dovetail wants to give everyone in their organization instant access to their customers at any time.
Dovetail 希望让组织中的每个人都能随时即时访问其客户。
From roadmaps, discovery, to strategy sessions and more, it's never been easier to make customer-centric decisions.
从路线图、发现到战略会议等，做出以客户为中心的决策从未如此简单。
The good news is Lenny's listeners can try Dovetail's Pro plan along with their newest products and features free for 30 days.
好消息是 Lenny 的听众可以免费试用 Dovetail 的 Pro 计划以及他们的最新产品和功能 30 天。
Just go to dovetail.com/lenny.
只需访问 dovetail.com/lenny。
Lenny Rachitsky: I want to start with something that I think is most unique from what I've heard, and I think there's going to be a lot of really unique approaches to how you all think about growth.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想从我所听到的最独特的事情开始，我认为将会有很多真正独特的方法来解释你们如何看待增长。
One of the most interesting things I've heard is that how you think about churn and retention.
我听过的最有趣的事情之一是您如何看待客户流失和保留。
To most companies, the most important thing is to increase retention, reduce churn.
对于大多数公司来说，最重要的是提高保留率、减少流失率。
My sense or my understanding is you guys are kind of the opposite.
我的感觉或我的理解是你们有点相反。
You one, don't think tons about churn, you almost optimize for churn.
你，不要考虑太多关于客户流失的问题，你几乎已经针对客户流失进行了优化。
Talk about that.
谈谈那个。
How does that work?
这是如何运作的？
Archie Abrams: The way we think about churn is really going back to Shopify as a kind of our mission and what we want to do, which is to increase the amount of entrepreneurship on the internet.
Archie Abrams：我们对客户流失的看法实际上是回到 Shopify，将其视为我们的使命和我们想要做的事情，即增加互联网上的创业数量。
And so as a business, we want to make it as easy as possible to get started with your online store, with your business.
因此，作为一家企业，我们希望尽可能轻松地开始您的在线商店和业务。
Archie Abrams: But most businesses do ultimately fail.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：但大多数企业最终都会失败。
And so the way we look at it is can we lower the barriers to getting started and get as many people in the door trying their hand at entrepreneurship?
因此，我们的看法是，我们能否降低创业门槛，让尽可能多的人踏上创业之路？
If we do that, again, many of those businesses, many of those folks will maybe on their first attempt not be as successful, but we're going to have a set of merchants who go on to become extremely big businesses, the Allbirds of the world, FIGS, etc.
如果我们再次这样做，许多这样的企业，其中许多人可能在第一次尝试时不会那么成功，但我们将拥有一批商人，他们将继续成为非常大的企业，世界上的全鸟、无花果等。
Archie Abrams: And the way the Shopify business model works is we do charge a subscription, but most of our revenue comes from payments, which is tied to directly to a merchant's success.
Archie Abrams：Shopify 商业模式的运作方式是我们收取订阅费用，但我们的大部分收入来自付款，这与商家的成功直接相关。
So in a given cohort of merchants, a lot of people will start.
因此，在特定的商家群体中，很多人都会开始。
Some of those people on their first attempt that's entrepreneurship might not succeed, but the folks who do go on to be successful will make that entire cohort of merchants who started something that makes Shopify as a business extremely successful.
其中一些人第一次尝试创业可能不会成功，但那些继续成功的人将使整个商家群体受益匪浅，他们的创业使 Shopify 作为一家企业取得了巨大的成功。
And that's why we lower the barriers to get started and help folks grow, and those winners make the whole thing work.
这就是为什么我们降低入门门槛并帮助人们成长，而那些成功者使整个事情顺利进行。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
So what I'm hearing is it's not that you don't want people to stick around, it's not that you don't want people to succeed.
所以我听到的是，并不是你不希望人们留下来，也不是你不希望人们成功。
It's that you're not optimizing every new shop for sticking around long-term.
问题在于，你并没有为了长期坚持而优化每家新店。
It's basically make it as easy as possible for people to try it.
它基本上是让人们尽可能容易地尝试。
And all you need is a few big wins for it to all work out.
你所需要的只是取得一些重大胜利才能让一切顺利进行。
Archie Abrams: Correct.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：正确。
And that's really a different insight than most SaaS companies that they get a customer, they really never want that person to leave.
这与大多数 SaaS 公司不同，他们在获得客户后，真的不想让那个人离开。
And we want to lower that barriers to get started and be successful.
我们希望降低入门并取得成功的障碍。
Lenny Rachitsky: One of the main reasons companies focus so much on churn and retention is because it costs them a lot of money to drive new customers and users.
Lenny Rachitsky：公司如此关注客户流失和保留的主要原因之一是因为他们需要花费大量资金来吸引新客户和用户。
I imagine there's almost an implied it's really cheap for you all to find new customers because of maybe the brand and word of mouth.
我想这几乎暗示着你们寻找新客户真的很便宜，也许是因为品牌和口碑。
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
Archie Abrams: I think that definitely has some dynamics.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：我认为这肯定有一些动力。
I think the bigger factor is the monetization model.
我认为更大的因素是盈利模式。
For most SaaS companies, they're making from a subscription, right?
对于大多数 SaaS 公司来说，他们是通过订阅来赚钱的，对吗？
29 bucks a month is the only way that they're going to really monetize.
每月 29 美元是他们真正赚钱的唯一途径。
Whereas our business works, you have folks who are paying a subscription.
当我们的业务运转良好时，就会有人付费订阅。
But as folks get bigger, because we're monetizing on that GMV that that merchant is producing or the revenue the merchant is producing in the form of payments and other services, it allows us to grow with the merchant in those really successful merchants, make the whole system work well.
但随着人们变得更大，因为我们通过该商家产生的 GMV 或该商家以支付和其他服务的形式产生的收入来货币化，它使我们能够与那些真正成功的商家中的商家一起成长，使整个系统运转良好。
Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。
So basically, your net dollar retention or network revenue retention is just absurd for the winners and it makes up for all the losers slash not losers, people that have tried to build an online-
所以基本上，你的净美元保留或网络收入保留对于赢家来说是荒谬的，它弥补了所有失败者的削减而不是失败者，那些试图建立一个在线的人——
Archie Abrams: Yes, tried and haven't been very successful.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：是的，尝试过，但不太成功。
When you can think of the other parallel is in angel investing, right?
当你能想到另一个相似之处是天使投资时，对吗？
Most of angel investments are not going to work out, but the couple that do make that entire investment portfolio successful.
大多数天使投资都不会成功，但有一些投资确实使整个投资组合取得了成功。
Lenny Rachitsky: With retention not being the primary goal and the metric you guys focus on optimizing, how do you know if you're doing well?
Lenny Rachitsky：保留率不是主要目标，也不是你们重点优化的指标，您如何知道自己做得是否良好？
Is it some number of these winners have to come out every quarter, every year?
每个季度、每年都必须有一定数量的获奖者出现吗？
How do you think about progress and achieving, and success basically for growth?
您如何看待进步和成就，以及基本上是为了成长的成功？
Archie Abrams: This way is thinking about a cohort of users we acquire in a given time period, say a quarter.
Archie Abrams：这种方法是考虑我们在给定时间段（比如一个季度）内获得的一组用户。
And then over the next year, two years, three years, four years, five years, how much GMV have those merchants produced in total?
那么接下来的一年、两年、三年、四年、五年，这些商家总共产生了多少GMV？
Not about per merchant basis, but in total, did that cohort generate GMV?
不是以每个商家为基础，而是以总体而言，该群体是否产生了 GMV？
And if they generate GMV, that will translate into revenue and gross profit and all of those things that we can then use to reinvest in growing the business.
如果它们产生 GMV，这将转化为收入和毛利润以及所有这些我们可以用来再投资于业务增长的东西。
So it's really looking at the total value, but on that GMV basis.
所以它实际上是在考虑总价值，但是以 GMV 为基础的。
And GMV is a power law based metric.
GMV 是一个基于幂律的指标。
And so it's really that power law that drives the success of each cohort.
因此，正是幂律推动了每个群体的成功。
Archie Abrams: Again, going back to investing, same thing there.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：再说一遍，回到投资，同样的事情。
Each vintage from a fund, how much did that return as a fund?
基金的每个年份，作为基金的回报是多少？
And it's really driven by the few really successful outliers.
它实际上是由少数真正成功的异常值推动的。
Lenny Rachitsky: So this begs the question, that sounds like a very long feedback loop.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以这就引出了一个问题，这听起来像是一个很长的反馈循环。
And I don't know what I do with that information if five years from now, "Oh okay, that was a really good idea we did five years ago."
我不知道五年后我会如何处理这些信息，“哦，好吧，这是我们五年前做的一个非常好的主意。”
Lenny Rachitsky: Comment on that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：对此发表评论。
It touches on something you said about how metrics aren't actually a driver of how you all think at Shopify, so take that wherever you want to go.
它涉及到您所说的关于指标实际上并不能驱动大家在 Shopify 的想法，所以无论您想去哪里，都可以使用它。
Archie Abrams: Yeah.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：是的。
So it's interesting.
所以这很有趣。
I think with Shopify, we very purposely set up different parts of the org to think on very different time horizons and with very different ways of thinking about how to build product and the like.
我认为通过 Shopify，我们特意设置了组织的不同部分，以不同的时间范围和不同的方式思考如何构建产品等。
Very different than a lot of companies that typically, have maybe one kind of unified, there's one north star that the entire company is rallying around.
与许多通常拥有一种统一的公司截然不同的是，整个公司都围绕着一颗北极星团结在一起。
Archie Abrams: And so there's three major product groups at Shopify.
Archie Abrams：Shopify 分为三个主要产品组。
There's core product which is basically building the 100 year, the right things for commerce 100 years from now.
我们的核心产品基本上是在构建 100 年、100 年后适合商业的产品。
There's merchant services which is building things like payments, shipping, the tools that entrepreneurs need to be successful with a more shorter or medium term horizon.
商业服务正在构建支付、运输等企业家在短期或中期取得成功所需的工具。
And then growth is really thinking about that end-to-end customer journey.
然后，增长实际上是考虑端到端的客户旅程。
How can we bring folks on and make sure they're successful?
我们怎样才能吸引人们并确保他们成功？
Archie Abrams: And then from a metrics standpoint, we do have obviously some leading indicators in growth that we're looking at on a given experiment or what have you.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：然后从指标的角度来看，我们确实有一些明显的增长领先指标，我们正在给定的实验或其他实验中观察这些指标。
But the key in what we try to instrument in our experimentation is the ability to really look at longterm effects of experiments.
但我们在实验中尝试使用的关键是能够真正观察实验的长期影响。
Archie Abrams: So we constantly will relook at an experiment a year later, see that the way the GMV curve for the distribution was different than we might've originally thought.
Archie Abrams：所以我们会在一年后不断地重新审视实验，看看分布的 GMV 曲线与我们最初想象的不同。
And that'll actually change what we do from that previous experiment.
这实际上会改变我们之前实验的结果。
And so there's a lot of longterm monitoring of experiments over these very long time horizons to both inform what those input metrics are and more importantly hold ourselves accountable to, did we actually move what we cared about, which is that longterm GMV, in the right way?
因此，在很长的时间范围内对实验进行了大量的长期监控，以了解这些输入指标是什么，更重要的是让我们自己负责，我们是否真的以正确的方式移动了我们关心的东西，即长期 GMV？
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。
Okay.
好的。
I want to spend more time here.
我想在这里度过更多的时间。
So the way you're describing it is the way the business operates is you think, what is our 100-year plan?
所以你描述的方式就是你认为企业运作的方式，我们的 100 年计划是什么？
How do we think, where does this need to be in 100 years?
我们如何思考，100 年后这需要发展到什么程度？
And with that, it allows you to run these long holdout experiments to see, is something we're doing impacting the business broadly?
这样，您就可以进行这些长期坚持的实验，看看我们正在做的事情是否对业务产生了广泛的影响？
And because you think so longterm, you can take a year, or two, or three to see if there's an impact and then make adjustments versus I'm having to drive a certain metric every quarter, every year.
因为你考虑得如此长远，所以你可以花一年、两年或三年的时间来看看是否有影响，然后做出调整，而不是我每年每个季度都必须推动某个指标。
Archie Abrams: Correct.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：正确。
And I mean on growth, we're definitely in the...
我的意思是，就增长而言，我们绝对处于……
We want to drive metrics on a short-term basis and we can do that obviously, but we have the luxury, and the way Tobi thinks about the world and the way we operate, to really think about these longterm effects and make sure that we're holding ourselves accountable with these longterm holdouts, and then constantly refining the input metrics that we're using and getting a lot smarter about that.
我们希望在短期内推动指标，我们显然可以做到这一点，但我们有奢侈，以及托比思考世界的方式和我们运作的方式，真正考虑这些长期影响，并确保我们对这些长期坚持负责，然后不断完善我们正在使用的输入指标，并在这方面变得更加聪明。
But because we take that long horizon, it allows us to be better in the short term and just get a lot smarter.
但因为我们目光长远，所以我们可以在短期内做得更好，并且变得更聪明。
Archie Abrams: And a lot of counterintuitive things.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：还有很多违反直觉的事情。
And I would encourage everyone, if you can, look at some of the experiments that you thought were your biggest winners.
如果可以的话，我会鼓励每个人看看一些你认为是最大赢家的实验。
Look at the downstream metrics for a year, two years on that experiment.
查看该实验一年、两年的下游指标。
And I'll bet you'd be surprised how many times the metric is different than what you thought it would be after a year.
我敢打赌，您会惊讶地发现一年后该指标与您想象的有多少次不同。
Lenny Rachitsky: Because where people just make a call at a certain point in time, here's the list in it, here's the list experience.
Lenny Rachitsky：因为人们只是在某个时间点拨打电话，这是其中的列表，这是列表体验。
I love this, because very few people have experiences running a longterm experiment, and so this is a really interesting insight that you're sharing that, I guess how often do you find this to be true in your long-term holdouts, where things end up being very different downstream?
我喜欢这个，因为很少有人有进行长期实验的经验，所以这是一个非常有趣的见解，您正在分享这一点，我猜您在长期坚持中是否经常发现这一点，下游的情况最终会变得非常不同？
Archie Abrams: I think there's probably two things that have been very common.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：我认为可能有两件事非常常见。
And I would say in quite a few cases, you get a lift on a metric up front, a more short-term metric.
我想说，在很多情况下，你会预先获得一个指标，一个更短期的指标。
Number of people who become a paying shopper, number of people who make their first sale in Shopify.
成为付费购物者的人数，在 Shopify 中进行首次销售的人数。
And then you look a year later, and there's actually no incremental lift on GMV from that cohort.
一年后你会发现，该群体的 GMV 实际上没有任何增量提升。
Archie Abrams: And so I think it actually trains, a lot of us in growth are looking at these short-term metrics.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：所以我认为它实际上是在训练，我们很多成长中的人都在关注这些短期指标。
A lot of the time it's actually more pull-forward effect, than you fully realize or an incremental user that's just really not worth that much.
很多时候，它实际上比你完全意识到的更具拉动效应，或者增量用户实际上并不值得那么多。
So that's one.
这就是其中之一。
Archie Abrams: And then two, so this effect size goes away.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：然后是两个，所以这个效应大小就消失了。
There are cases where the experiment has flipped the other way.
在某些情况下，实验会发生相反的情况。
And then there are cases, and these are the most interesting ones, where you realize that you uncovered a pocket of merchants that are actually extremely valuable entrepreneurs who go on to be successful, that you missed in your normal short-term measurement techniques.
然后还有一些案例，这些是最有趣的案例，您意识到您发现了一些商人，他们实际上是非常有价值的企业家，他们后来取得了成功，而您在正常的短期衡量技术中错过了这些商人。
And so all across the board we see that.
所以我们从整体上都看到了这一点。
But actually the most common is it actually isn't a long-term lift from a lot of things that you might think of the short-term are.
但实际上最常见的是，它实际上并不是对许多你可能认为是短期的事情的长期提升。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there an example in that second bucket of what you mean when you say there's a pocket of valuable merchants?
Lenny Rachitsky：当你说有一批有价值的商人时，你的第二个桶中是否有一个例子？
Archie Abrams: Yeah, I think a lot of this has to do with, we call it monetary friction.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：是的，我认为这很大程度上与我们称之为货币摩擦有关。
So one of the hardest things to do with a business is when you're getting started, is you might not have any revenue coming in, and you are kind of bootstrapping, which in Shopify's case might be 39 bucks a month.
因此，对于一家企业来说，最困难的事情之一就是当你刚开始的时候，你可能没有任何收入，你需要自力更生，在 Shopify 的例子中，每月可能有 39 美元。
But still, it's a real expense.
但这仍然是一笔真正的开支。
Archie Abrams: And so typically when you can lower the barriers to monetary friction in some form, that could be all sorts of monetary friction early.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：通常，当你能够以某种形式降低货币摩擦的障碍时，早期可能会出现各种货币摩擦。
The common belief is that we'll usually get lower quality folks coming in the door, because usually discounts are associated with lower quality.
人们普遍认为，我们通常会招到质量较低的人，因为折扣通常与质量较低有关。
Archie Abrams: If you think about in a business case, if I give you a little monetary boost and reduce that monetary friction, I can actually causally change your ability to become successful, because I've given you a little bit more time to try that idea a little bit longer.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：如果你考虑一个商业案例，如果我给你一点货币刺激并减少货币摩擦，我实际上可以因果地改变你成功的能力，因为我给了你更多的时间来尝试这个想法更长时间。
I've given you that opportunity to move your business over to Shopify.
我已经为您提供了将您的业务转移到 Shopify 的机会。
And so often in those types of experiments you see that you've basically unlocked a class of people who might've given up without reducing that monetary friction
在这类实验中，你经常会发现，你基本上已经解锁了一群可能在不减少货币摩擦的情况下放弃的人
Lenny Rachitsky: Interesting.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：有趣。
And giving them time to actually make it work.
并给他们时间让其真正发挥作用。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
So just roughly, do you have a sense of how often you find no effect after a year that you saw early impact?
粗略地说，您是否知道在看到早期影响一年后发现没有效果的频率是多少？
Just to ballpark that.
只是为了大致了解。
Archie Abrams: Yeah, it's in the 30 to 40% range.
Archie Abrams：是的，在 30% 到 40% 的范围内。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
I think you're tearing the heart out of so many growth people right now, and nobody wants to hear this that works on growth where you're saying potentially a third of the experiments they're running today that are showing lift probably don't have that same...
我认为你现在让很多成长型人士感到心碎，没有人想听到这种对成长有效的说法，你说他们今天正在进行的显示提升的实验中可能有三分之一可能没有同样的效果……
Don't have any impact down the road.
不要对以后的路有任何影响。
Archie Abrams: Yes.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：是的。
Unfortunately, I think that's brutal.
不幸的是，我认为这很残酷。
Probably more common than we like to believe.
可能比我们想象的更常见。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yes, and nobody wants to hear this, except people that you should want to hear this because if you want to build a business that grows and need to grow, it's better to know to learn that now.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，没有人想听这个，除了那些你应该想听这个的人，因为如果你想建立一个不断增长并且需要增长的企业，最好现在就知道这一点。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
So for people that can't run whole long hold that experiments, I guess is there anything that you find is a good early indicator that might be the case?
因此，对于那些无法长时间进行实验的人来说，我想您是否发现了一些可能是这种情况的良好早期指标？
Most people don't have time to sit around and wait a year or two or three.
大多数人没有时间坐等一年、两年或三年。
They're not thinking 100 years.
他们没想到100年。
Archie Abrams: I mean I think end of the day that is going to be the most effective and you actually learn the most.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：我的意思是，我认为最终这将是最有效的，而且你实际上学到了最多的东西。
I think it is, though even in shorter term horizons, really being as specific as you can be about what are the early signs of success in your product, and making sure you instrument those.
我认为，即使是在短期内，也要尽可能具体地说明产品成功的早期迹象，并确保对这些迹象进行测量。
And then making sure, particularly up funnel experiments, you are actually looking at the further downstream metrics to make sure you have some understanding of what's moving down.
然后确保，特别是向上漏斗实验，您实际上正在查看更下游的指标，以确保您对向下移动的内容有一定的了解。
Archie Abrams: So as deep as you can go in the funnel for as long as you can wait.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：只要你能等待，你就可以在漏斗中走得越深越好。
Do that.
这样做。
And if you can't, you know what I would say?
如果你不能，你知道我会说什么吗？
Still you should just bet on, if something is showing lift up funnel, still ship it and it's probably not going to hurt you, but don't overestimate the amount of impact that this is having.
尽管如此，你还是应该打赌，如果有东西出现提升漏斗，仍然运送它，它可能不会伤害你，但不要高估这所产生的影响。
Archie Abrams: So it's funny, two things here is, my recommendation to folks is don't think, "Oh my goodness, I have to wait all this time." Because if you didn't move the short-term impact, you're not going to have the long-term lift.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：这很有趣，有两件事是，我对人们的建议是不要想，“哦，天哪，我必须一直等待。”因为如果你不消除短期影响，就不会获得长期提升。
So still ship if it's short-term lift.
因此，如果是短期提升，仍需发货。
Just be reasonable that if you can measure it longer term, you'll get better about identifying what things are that are really impactful.
合理一点，如果你能长期衡量它，你就能更好地识别哪些事情是真正有影响力的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。
And so it may be positive initially, but often neutral.
因此，最初可能是积极的，但通常是中性的。
Rarely is it neutral initially and then positive down the road?
很少有情况是最初是中性的，然后是积极的？
Archie Abrams: There are some cases of that, but it's rarely...
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：确实有一些这样的情况，但很少......
I've seen neutral be positive, but I haven't seen negative.
我见过中性的就是积极的，但我没见过消极的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。
Okay.
好的。
So that's reassuring.
所以这让人放心。
You're not harming the business, but you're probably getting a lot more credit than you deserve as a growth team shipping things that are-
你并没有损害业务，但你可能得到了比你应得的更多的荣誉，作为一个增长团队交付的东西是-
Lenny Rachitsky: And there's also just trade-offs to moving on and on balance, you're probably doing good things if you continue to ship things that are showing positive.
Lenny Rachitsky：继续前进和平衡也需要权衡，如果你继续交付表现出积极的东西，你可能会做好事。
Right?
正确的？
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
This is awesome.
这太棒了。
For people that want to run long-term holdout experiments, I imagine you've built your own experimentation system internally?
对于想要进行长期坚持实验的人，我想您已经在内部建立了自己的实验系统？
Yeah, we have.
是的，我们有。
Lenny Rachitsky: And is it basically you hold out 10%, say it was some percentage of users from seeing the new change?
Lenny Rachitsky：基本上你是坚持 10%，也就是说有一定比例的用户没有看到新的变化吗？
Is that how you approach it or is there a different way of approach?
这是您的处理方式还是有不同的处理方式？
Archie Abrams: Two things.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：有两件事。
We have two layers of holdouts.
我们有两层抵抗者。
So one is more the holdouts of every change in a quarter, holdout 5% across the board.
因此，一个季度内的每一次变化都会遭到抵制，全面抵制的比例为 5%。
Second is for changes that only affect new merchants, what we'll do is we'll take that group of folks, let's call it 50/50 split, and then run that for a few weeks.
其次，对于只影响新商家的变化，我们要做的是让这群人，我们称之为 50/50 分割，然后运行几周。
And then what we're doing, we look at the long-term effects is actually ship the winner to 100%, but we're looking at the cohort of folks who was assigned to the experiment.
然后我们正在做的事情，我们着眼于长期效果，实际上是让获胜者达到 100%，但我们正在着眼于被分配到实验中的一群人。
We're going back and looking at those people who were assigned a year later.
我们将回顾一年后被分配的那些人。
Archie Abrams: So it allows us to still ship, get stuff out, but we've kind of held the experiment in a way that allows us to see those long-term effects just for the cohort that was exposed.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：所以它允许我们仍然运送、取出东西，但我们进行实验的方式让我们能够看到对暴露的群体的长期影响。
That only works if you're doing it on new users.
仅当您对新用户执行此操作时，这才有效。
For existing, it's a little more complicated.
对于现有的，情况稍微复杂一些。
That's okay.
没关系。
And then in our experimentation tools, all experimenters are paying that three months, six months, nine months, 12 months with here are the updated results.
然后在我们的实验工具中，所有实验者都支付三个月、六个月、九个月、12 个月的费用，这里是更新的结果。
So you can't really get hide from, what did this really result in over a longer term horizon?
所以你无法真正逃避，从长远来看，这到底导致了什么？
Lenny Rachitsky: So your tool is email everyone that's involved with the experiment of here's what this cohort is doing now.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以你的工具是向所有参与实验的人发送电子邮件，告诉他们这群人现在正在做的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
Okay, that's awesome.
好吧，太棒了。
It's interesting that you use kind of these cohort curves for GMV, and is that the core metric you look at to see?
有趣的是，您使用这些群组曲线来计算 GMV，这是您要查看的核心指标吗？
Archie Abrams: There's a few GMV, obviously gross profit.
Archie Abrams：有一些 GMV，显然是毛利润。
But GMV is kind of like a key determinant of long-term success.
但 GMV 有点像长期成功的关键决定因素。
Lenny Rachitsky: So it's interesting.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以这很有趣。
Most people use cohort retention curves.
大多数人使用队列保留曲线。
You're using cohort because you don't look at retention.
你使用队列是因为你不考虑保留率。
You're looking at for GMV over time.
您正在寻找一段时间内的 GMV。
So that's really interesting.
这真的很有趣。
Archie Abrams: GMV over time, which correlates better.
Archie Abrams：GMV 随着时间的推移，相关性更好。
And there's a retention in profit.
并且有利润留存。
And then really the absolute number of merchants who are on the platform and then reaching certain GMV.
然后是平台上达到一定 GMV 的商家绝对数量。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, I'm going to not keep falling this path.
Lenny Rachitsky：好吧，我不会再继续走这条路了。
We can go on and on.
我们可以继续下去。
While we're in the topic of experiments and what you've done, I'm curious if there's any examples of big wins that your team has shipped that might inspire people as they're thinking about launching experiments.
当我们谈论实验和你所做的事情时，我很好奇你的团队是否取得了重大胜利，这些例子可能会激励人们考虑开展实验。
I know there's probably some trade secret stuff you don't want competitors to know, and I know this is particular to Shopify and a platform in eCommerce.
我知道您可能不希望竞争对手知道一些商业秘密，而且我知道这是 Shopify 和电子商务平台所特有的。
But I guess is there anything that would be worth sharing of like, "Here's a huge win that maybe we didn't expect."
但我想有什么值得分享的，比如“这是一个我们可能没有想到的巨大胜利。”
Archie Abrams: Going back, there's always a lot of value in thinking through monetary friction as I mentioned.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：回顾过去，正如我提到的，思考货币摩擦总是很有价值的。
That's always going to be something to export.
这总是需要出口的东西。
Trial dynamics, different types of incentives, all of those things are very impactful.
试验动态、不同类型的激励措施，所有这些都非常有影响力。
Archie Abrams: I would say on things that are maybe more practical and for everyone, there's an enormous amount, and we do see these with long-term effects.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：我想说的是，对于每个人来说可能更实际的事情，数量巨大，而且我们确实看到这些会产生长期影响。
But just the nuts and bolts of sign up, collecting the right information.
但只是注册的具体细节，收集正确的信息。
And you usually want to collect more information than most people think you do in your sign up flow.
您通常希望在注册流程中收集比大多数人想象的更多的信息。
If you can then leverage that to personalize the guidance.
如果您可以利用它来个性化指导。
And this is for SaaS product, the guidance that someone can get when they onboard into Shopify.
这是针对 SaaS 产品的，人们在加入 Shopify 时可以获得的指导。
Archie Abrams: So whether you're coming on, Shopify is a very diverse product, in-person selling, online selling different channels.
Archie Abrams：所以无论您是否同意，Shopify 都是一个非常多样化的产品，包括面对面销售、在线销售等不同渠道。
There's the nuts and bolts of get more information from folks, build trust in there, give them right amount of guidance when they come on in a personalized way.
从人们那里获取更多信息，建立信任，在他们以个性化的方式出现时给予他们适当的指导。
Archie Abrams: And that may sound like, okay, that's kind of obvious.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：这听起来可能是，好吧，这很明显。
But the amount of impact by just nailing those flows has never ceased to amaze me and setting up that person for long-term success.
但仅仅通过固定这些流程所产生的影响力就一直让我感到惊讶，并帮助那个人取得长期成功。
So monetary friction.
所以货币摩擦。
Then just really good onboarding, personalization, a well of opportunities there.
然后就是非常好的入职、个性化以及大量的机会。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that onboarding comes up every time I ask anyone where they've seen ongoing success and opportunities, particularly in actually surprisingly driving retention.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢每次我问任何人在哪里看到持续的成功和机会时都会提到入职，特别是在实际上令人惊讶地提高保留率方面。
It's interesting that that's not what you look at, but it turns out that's one of the biggest levers for increasing retention.
有趣的是，这不是您所看到的，但事实证明这是提高保留率的最大杠杆之一。
Interesting that even for a company that doesn't look at retention, that's a big opportunity.
有趣的是，即使对于一家不注重保留的公司来说，这也是一个巨大的机会。
Archie Abrams: Yes.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：是的。
Yeah, it's really because it's setting people up, for Shopify's case, I think the big thing about all of our metrics is...
是的，这确实是因为它在帮助人们，对于 Shopify 的案例，我认为我们所有指标的最重要的是......
What we get very nervous about is the easiest way to increase retention is always to constrict the funnel stage one above the retention metric you're trying to optimize for.
我们非常担心的是，提高保留率的最简单方法始终是将渠道第一阶段限制在您要优化的保留指标之上。
Archie Abrams: The simplest way to increase my signup to activated thing is just make it harder to sign up.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：增加我的激活注册量的最简单方法就是让注册变得更困难。
Nuts and bolts, that will always happen is when you have teams on that local conversion rates, you get all these weird team incentives, because they're optimizing to basically implicitly make it harder to do the step before them.
具体来说，当你的团队达到本地转化率时，这种情况总会发生，你会得到所有这些奇怪的团队激励，因为他们正在优化，基本上隐式地让他们更难完成之前的步骤。
Archie Abrams: And because we focus on that long-term GMV, number of merchants who are successful, orienting every team to think about the total number of people, not the rate, but the total number of people who got to the end of their part of the journey is a very powerful way to incentivize people to do the right thing in terms of getting people set up versus do the, "I'm going to constrict the funnel step right before me to make my local conversion rate look better," which is the bane of my existence but something I see a lot of teams, implicitly or explicitly do when they get too focused on rates as a way to think about the world.
Archie Abrams：因为我们关注的是长期 GMV，即成功的商家数量，所以引导每个团队考虑总人数，而不是比率，而是完成旅程终点的总人数，这是一种非常有效的方式，可以激励人们做正确的事情，而不是“我将缩小我面前的漏斗步骤，以使我的本地转化率看起来更好”，这就是这是我存在的祸根，但我看到很多团队在过于关注利率作为思考世界的方式时，或含蓄或明确地这样做。
Archie Abrams: Incentives, what a power, what a lever.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：激励，多么强大的力量，多么强大的杠杆。
Lenny Rachitsky: I definitely want to chat a little bit more about metrics.
Lenny Rachitsky：我确实想多谈谈指标。
I know you have a really interesting take that's kind of built on what you're just talking about.
我知道你有一个非常有趣的观点，它是建立在你刚才所说的基础上的。
But first of all, you mentioned this term monetary friction as one of the levers that you've seen success with.
但首先，您提到货币摩擦这个词是您所看到的成功的杠杆之一。
Can you just describe what that actually means?
您能简单描述一下这实际上意味着什么吗？
Archie Abrams: Totally.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：完全可以。
So things like trial, trial dynamics, trial length, trial amount.
比如审判、审判动态、审判长度、审判金额。
It means incentives.
就是激励的意思。
So what is in your product?
那么您的产品中有什么？
What do people value and need in order to be successful?
人们为了成功而看重和需要什么？
So in Shopify's case, that might be app score credits or things like that, but those are the two forms of monetary friction we talk about and then of course actual price point.
因此，在 Shopify 的情况下，这可能是应用程序得分积分或类似的东西，但这些是我们讨论的两种形式的货币摩擦，当然还有实际价格点。
But that's what the larger bucket of monetary friction is.
但这就是更大的货币摩擦。
Lenny Rachitsky: So let's follow this thread of metrics.
Lenny Rachitsky：那么让我们遵循这条指标线索。
You're big on absolute numbers and you've been talking about this already, versus percentages and ratios.
您非常重视绝对数字，而且您已经讨论过这一点，而不是百分比和比率。
Talk about that and how you encourage your teams to think about metrics.
谈论这一点以及您如何鼓励您的团队考虑指标。
Archie Abrams: Yeah, I think one of the things that I think happens particularly in large, in Shopify's growth order, it's about 600 folks.
Archie Abrams：是的，我认为我认为发生的事情之一特别是在 Shopify 的增长顺序中，大约有 600 人。
When you have teams naturally break up the world into different funnel stages or different points in the journey, it gets very seductive to look at my part of the funnel, and what's my conversion rate through that part of the funnel?
当你的团队自然地将世界分解为不同的漏斗阶段或旅程中的不同点时，查看我的漏斗部分会非常诱人，以及我通过漏斗部分的转化率是多少？
And then the team starts to optimize for that conversion rate as their north star over a longer time period.
然后团队开始在更长的时间内优化该转化率作为他们的北极星。
I'm going to try to move my conversion rate from 10 to 12% or what have you.
我将尝试将我的转化率从 10% 提高到 12% 或者其他什么。
Archie Abrams: But in practice, I talked about it's actually almost always easier to just make it harder to do the thing right before your step in the funnel to increase your conversion rate.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：但在实践中，我谈到实际上总是更容易，只是让你在进入漏斗之前做这件事变得更困难，以提高你的转化率。
If I make it harder to sign up, it's going to be very easy to increase sign up to activated rate, because I just have fewer people and the people who made it through our higher intent.
如果我让注册变得更困难，那么提高注册激活率就会很容易，因为我的人数较少，而且通过我们更高的意图实现这一目标的人也较少。
Archie Abrams: And so I see teams get really stuck when they are trying to optimize conversion rate, but they just make it harder to do the previous thing.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：所以我看到团队在尝试优化转化率时陷入了困境，但他们只是让之前的事情变得更加困难。
Versus everyone is thinking about absolute number of people who made it through their "stage" of the funnel.
与每个人都在考虑通过漏斗“阶段”的绝对人数相比。
So instead of I'm trying to convert a bunch of people, a conversion rate, I just want more people to get activated.
因此，我不想尝试改变一群人、提高转换率，而是希望更多的人被激活。
Archie Abrams: And then once you start thinking that way, you realize actually the best way to get more people to get to a step sometimes, and often they just get more people in the door in the first place.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：一旦你开始这样思考，你就会意识到，有时，实际上是让更多人迈出一步的最佳方式，而且通常他们一开始就让更多人进来。
So make it easier to sign up or reduce friction.
因此，让注册变得更容易或减少摩擦。
It's the opposite.
事实恰恰相反。
Archie Abrams: Because that will always hurt your conversion rate, but it may actually give you more people on the outside.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：因为这总是会损害你的转化率，但它实际上可能会给你带来更多的外部人员。
And a lot of teams get very nervous, their retention rate went down, their LTV went down.
许多团队变得非常紧张，他们的保留率下降了，他们的生命周期价值也下降了。
Oh my goodness, is this this going to affect our ability to pay?
天哪，这会影响我们的支付能力吗？
No, your CAC also went down by probably more.
不，您的 CAC 也可能下降更多。
And so now you have the ability to likely spend more and you have more people through the door, getting to each point in the activation or the immersion journeys.
所以现在你有能力花更多的钱，并且有更多的人进来，到达激活或沉浸旅程中的每个点。
Lenny Rachitsky: What I'm hearing is essentially teams are gold not on increase, lift this conversion step by some percentage.
Lenny Rachitsky：我听到的基本上是球队是黄金，而不是增加，将这个转换步骤提高一定的百分比。
It's drive some absolute number of new merchants, potentially.
它可能会带动一定数量的新商家。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is a good segue to I want to hear how you structure your growth team at Shopify.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的延续，我想听听您如何在 Shopify 构建您的增长团队。
Essentially, what's the raw structure, what are the different teams, and what do they focus on?
本质上，原始结构是什么，不同的团队是什么，他们关注什么？
And then what are the functions within each teams?
那么每个团队的职能是什么？
Archie Abrams: We have two big groups within growth.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：我们有两大增长群体。
So one is what we call growth R&D.
其中之一就是我们所说的增长研发。
So this might be what you traditionally consider product design engineering, data, your traditional product teams.
因此，这可能就是您传统上认为的产品设计工程、数据、传统产品团队。
Then we have growth marketing, which in Shopify's case is paid acquisition, media buying, affiliate marketing, email, content, and SEO.
然后我们有增长营销，在 Shopify 的例子中是付费获取、媒体购买、联属营销、电子邮件、内容和 SEO。
So that's growth R&D, growth marketing.
这就是增长研发、增长营销。
Archie Abrams: Within growth R&D, three pillars.
Archie Abrams：在增长研发中，三大支柱。
One is what we call growth products.
一种是我们所说的成长型产品。
And so this is basically everything from landing pages, sign up, onboarding, monetization.
所以这基本上是从登陆页面、注册、入职、货币化的所有内容。
So trial, incentives, the like, all the way through to what we call our home feed, our engagement to basically get more merchants.
因此，尝试、激励等，一直到我们所谓的家庭反馈，我们的参与基本上是为了吸引更多的商家。
Again, not necessarily to retain, but to keep giving entrepreneurship a try to become bigger and bigger businesses.
再说一遍，不一定要保留，而是要不断尝试让企业变得越来越大。
So that's growth product, the full life cycle there.
这就是增长产品，完整的生命周期。
Archie Abrams: Second is what we call our enable pillar, and this pillar is building tools for both growth and the rest of Shopify.
Archie Abrams：第二个是我们所说的支持支柱，这个支柱是为 Shopify 的增长和其他部分构建工具。
So things like experimentation platform, our communication platform, our business intelligence tooling that powers a lot of what we're doing, our more tech work to support our growth marketing team.
因此，像实验平台、我们的沟通平台、我们的商业智能工具（为我们正在做的很多事情提供支持）、我们更多的技术工作来支持我们的增长营销团队。
Archie Abrams: And then our third bucket, which is maybe a little different from most growth teams is actually our customer support, groups within growth.
Archie Abrams：然后我们的第三个桶，可能与大多数增长团队有点不同，实际上是我们的客户支持，增长中的团队。
We want to think about customer support as part of this merchant journey of coming on, giving entrepreneurship a try, all the way through to here's the support I need as I'm becoming a multi-billion dollar business on Shopify.
我们希望将客户支持视为商业旅程的一部分，尝试创业，一直到我在 Shopify 上成为价值数十亿美元的业务时所需要的支持。
So those are the three big growth product buckets.
这些是三大增长产品类别。
And then within growth marketing, it's a more traditional channel setup.
然后在增长营销中，这是一种更传统的渠道设置。
Paid, all the different channels online, offline, SEO, email, and affiliates.
付费，所有不同的在线、离线、SEO、电子邮件和附属渠道。
Lenny Rachitsky: Super cool.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：超级酷。
Okay.
好的。
So within growth RD, I just took notes.
所以在增长研发中，我只是做笔记。
I'm going to summarize what you just shared, which is awesome.
我将总结一下您刚刚分享的内容，这非常棒。
So there's three big buckets.
于是就有了三个大桶。
One is growth product, which essentially is onboarding.
一种是增长产品，本质上是引导。
It feels like it's like the top of funnel, get people in.
感觉就像漏斗的顶部，让人们进去。
Well okay, so growth marketing feels like that's super top of funnel bring-
好吧，所以增长营销感觉就像是漏斗的超级顶部——
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
Okay, got it.
好的，明白了。
So growth marketing, drive people to Shopify.com.
因此，增长营销，吸引人们访问 Shopify.com。
Then within RD team, growth product takes that user and tries to get them to activate it.
然后在研发团队中，增长产品会吸引该用户并尝试让他们激活它。
Enable helps...
启用帮助...
It feels like that's like internal tooling and ways to make the teams internally more efficient.
感觉就像是内部工具和提高团队内部效率的方法。
Archie Abrams: Correct.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：正确。
Both growth and outside growth.
既有成长，也有外在的成长。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Okay.
好的。
And then the customer support team, that's really interesting.
然后是客户支持团队，这真的很有趣。
So there's a customer support product team that helps new merchants be successful.
因此，有一个客户支持产品团队可以帮助新商家取得成功。
And does that include actual customer support agents?
这包括实际的客户支持代理吗？
Is that within that team?
是那个团队里面的人吗？
Archie Abrams: That's not.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：不是这样的。
We build a tooling to make those support advisors superheroes.
我们构建了一个工具来使这些支持顾问成为超级英雄。
And then on the help center, all of our AI stuff to make a great customer experience for people who are just engaging in a self-serve.
然后在帮助中心，我们所有的人工智能技术都可以为那些只参与自助服务的人们提供良好的客户体验。
So it's the tooling and the experience for merchants.
所以这是商家的工具和体验。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
So with these teams, is there anything you can share about just how you think about metrics/goals for these different buckets?
那么对于这些团队，您是否可以分享一下您对这些不同类别的指标/目标的看法？
We don't need to get too deeply, but does everyone basically have an absolute new merchants goal or is it a little different?
我们不需要太深入，但是每个人基本上都有一个绝对的新商家目标还是有点不同？
Archie Abrams: So yeah.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：是的。
So at the highest level we think about that total cohort value.
因此，在最高层面上，我们会考虑队列总价值。
We bring in a set of merchants in a given year.
我们在某一年引进了一批商人。
How much GMV, how much that set of merchants worth over the next three, four years to Shopify?
未来三、四年内，这批商家对 Shopify 的 GMV 值是多少？
And that's the most important thing that we want to focus on.
这是我们想要关注的最重要的事情。
And then that of course, from an efficiency standpoint, that of course meeting our payback guardrails and all of that.
当然，从效率的角度来看，当然要满足我们的投资回报率等等。
So that's the macro growth perspective.
这就是宏观增长的观点。
Cohort value over cost and payback.
群体价值高于成本和回报。
So that's the macro point of view.
这就是宏观的观点。
Archie Abrams: And then within growth marketing, each channel operates with certain guardrails around their LTV CACs.
Archie Abrams：然后在增长营销中，每个渠道都在其 LTV CAC 周围设有一定的护栏。
Same thing for content and SEO.
内容和搜索引擎优化也是如此。
That operates with kind of a guardrail model for each piece of content.
它对每段内容都使用一种护栏模型来操作。
How much is that going to come back and down the line?
到底要多少钱才能回来？
Archie Abrams: For growth products, it's also a combination of total GP incremental cohort value that's produced from those teams.
Archie Abrams：对于成长型产品，它也是这些团队产生的 GP 增量队列总价值的组合。
So everything is basically going to be measured on from an experiment, ideally measured over a very long time period.
因此，一切基本上都将通过实验来衡量，最好是在很长一段时间内进行衡量。
What was the incremental cohort value lift that this generated?
由此产生的增量群组价值提升是多少？
And that's how we think about and measure the impact of each of those sub teams along the way.
这就是我们思考和衡量每个子团队的影响的方式。
Archie Abrams: Each of those have a civic part of the funnel they play with.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：每个人都在他们所玩的漏斗中都有公民的一部分。
But because they're measured on absolutes and they really think about that absolute value, we don't get caught into, did your conversion rate over the course of this year go up or down?
但因为他们是根据绝对值来衡量的，而且他们确实考虑了绝对值，所以我们不会陷入困境，今年你的转化率是上升还是下降？
It's kind of irrelevant.
这有点无关紧要。
What was the sum of the impact over a long period on that total cohort value that we're trying to produce from before merchants?
长期以来，对我们试图从商家之前产生的总群体价值的影响总和是多少？
Lenny Rachitsky: And the way you come up with this goal I imagine is you have a forecast of where things would go organically, and then here's the lift we want to see from the work this team does this quarter, this year.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想你提出这个目标的方式是你对事情将如何有机地进行预测，然后这是我们希望从这个团队本季度、今年所做的工作中看到的提升。
Archie Abrams: Correct.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：正确。
And then we're going to measure against for each experiment, did it actually get to where we expect that lift to be?
然后我们将对每个实验进行衡量，它是否真的达到了我们预期的提升程度？
Lenny Rachitsky: And those experiments again, are those all long-term holdout experiments where you look wait a year or some-
Lenny Rachitsky：那些实验又是那些长期坚持的实验，你看起来要等一年或几年——
Archie Abrams: We call.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：我们打电话。
We call the experiment after three weeks, but in all cases, the group is held, we watch them.
我们在三周后进行实验，但在所有情况下，小组都会被保留，我们会观察他们。
And that's where that ping comes back, every experiment is watched.
这就是 ping 回来的地方，每个实验都会被监视。
And that ping comes back three, six months, 12 months to re-look at was this actually successful?
3、6 个月、12 个月后 ping 回来，重新审视这是否真的成功了？
Archie Abrams: So that creates the loop of shipping value quickly, but making sure we're holding ourselves accountable to did this actually produce results over a long period, or did it actually just have this neutral effect?
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：因此，这会快速形成运输价值的循环，但要确保我们对自己负责，这是否真的在很长一段时间内产生了结果，或者实际上只是产生了这种中性效应？
It's like, oh, then we can learn from that and get better.
就像，哦，那么我们可以从中学习并变得更好。
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对于想要在客户电话、用户访谈或文档中寻找见解的团队来说，Dovetail 一直是首选工具。
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现在，他们发布了 Dovetail 3.0，进一步加强了这一点。
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Lenny Rachitsky：这一切只是冰山一角。
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Dovetail 希望让组织中的每个人都能随时即时访问其客户。
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从路线图、发现到战略会议等，做出以客户为中心的决策从未如此简单。
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Lenny Rachitsky：好消息是 Lenny 的听众可以免费试用 Dovetail 的 Pro 计划以及他们的最新产品和功能 30 天。
Just go to dovetail.com/Lenny.
只需访问 dovetail.com/Lenny。
Lenny Rachitsky: So maybe just to dig into this again, because it's so interesting.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以也许只是再次深入研究这个问题，因为它太有趣了。
Basically, product team ships stuff, they run an experiment, they see impact.
基本上，产品团队运送东西，他们进行实验，他们看到影响。
Say it's 5% lift on something.
假设某个东西有 5% 的提升。
Huzzah, you did it.
哈扎，你做到了。
Great work, performance review.
出色的工作，绩效考核。
Your exceeds, you're doing great.
你超越了，你做得很好。
This team's killing it.
这支球队正在杀死它。
And then a year later you realize, "Oh, that didn't last." How often do you find a team that is shipping wins looks back and ends up seeing, "That wasn't actually as successful as it." I know you said maybe it's a third of the time.
一年后你意识到，“哦，那并没有持续多久。”你是否经常发现一支正在取得胜利的球队回顾过去并最终发现，“实际上并没有那么成功。”我知道你说过也许是三分之一的时间。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
Okay, so it's still roughly, yeah.
好吧，所以它仍然是粗略的，是的。
Archie Abrams: And it's great learning and that's why we take it.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：这是一次很棒的学习，这就是我们接受它的原因。
It's like, wow, okay, now we really uncovered something and it's such a successful discovery.
就像，哇，好吧，现在我们真的发现了一些东西，而且这是一个如此成功的发现。
Wow, okay, we thought this thing.
哇，好吧，我们想到了这个。
But now we learned it actually wasn't as true as we thought.
但现在我们知道它实际上并不像我们想象的那么真实。
Cool.
凉爽的。
What can we take from that and be smarter next time so we don't just double down on the wrong things?
我们能从中吸取什么教训，下次变得更聪明，这样我们就不会在错误的事情上加倍努力？
Lenny Rachitsky: That's so interesting.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太有趣了。
And again, and you mentioned most of the reason this is the case when something doesn't show lift down the road is it's pulling forward success that would've been seen later on its own if you had not even shipped this thing?
再说一次，你提到，出现这种情况的大部分原因是，当某些东西没有显示出前进的动力时，它正在推动成功，如果你甚至没有运送这个东西，那么以后它自己就会看到成功？
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Is there an example by any chance that comes to mind of something like that that's just like, "Wow, that was a big win.
是否有任何机会让我想起这样的例子，“哇，这是一场巨大的胜利。
And then oh I see we just pulled forward some revenue from the future."
然后哦，我看到我们刚刚从未来提取了一些收入。”
Archie Abrams: So I think one good example is something around payment failure notifications.
Archie Abrams：所以我认为一个很好的例子是付款失败通知。
So one of the things that a lot of teams have or see is we call Dunning effects where somebody might have a payment not go through, a credit card that doesn't go through.
因此，许多团队拥有或看到的一件事是我们称之为催款效应，即有人可能无法完成付款，信用卡无法完成。
So we did a bunch of experimentation around, hey, how can we alert people that their credit card is failed, their payment attempt failed?
所以我们做了很多实验，嘿，我们如何提醒人们他们的信用卡失败了，他们的付款尝试失败了？
Archie Abrams: And that's a typical growth win, usually produces a lot of short-term impact.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：这是典型的增长胜利，通常会产生很多短期影响。
And that's what we saw here.
这就是我们在这里看到的。
We were doing much better alerting, reminding people, sending them a million emails about it.
我们做得更好，提醒人们，向他们发送一百万封有关此事的电子邮件。
Cool, we got some pretty major lift.
酷，我们得到了一些相当大的提升。
Archie Abrams: You look back six, 12 months.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：你回顾一下六、十二个月的情况。
There was really no long-term lift.
确实没有长期的提升。
And why is that?
这是为什么呢？
Because there's really a little bit of a selection bias there that people who were letting that payment fail probably weren't actually that dedicated to this entrepreneurship craft.
因为确实存在一点选择偏差，那些让付款失败的人实际上可能并没有那么热衷于这种创业技巧。
They may have updated their credit card, but they still really weren't in it.
他们可能已经更新了信用卡，但他们仍然没有在其中。
Archie Abrams: And so that was a good example of in a bunch of this stuff around payments, even "preventing" churn where you look, it's six, 12, 18 months.
Archie Abrams：这是围绕付款的一系列问题的一个很好的例子，甚至“防止”客户流失，也就是 6、12、18 个月。
On a GMV metric, not a lot of lift over that long-term horizon.
从 GMV 指标来看，长期来看并没有太大提升。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love this example.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个例子。
I could see so many people having run experiments like this and like, "Oh, we found such a huge win.
我可以看到很多人都进行过这样的实验，然后说：“哦，我们发现了如此巨大的胜利。
This team's killing it.
这支球队正在杀死它。
What a great idea.
多好的主意啊。
Of course this makes sense," and then turns out it's nothing long term.
当然这是有道理的，”然后事实证明这并不是什么长期的事情。
Archie Abrams: Which is great.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：这太棒了。
We were going to spend a lot of time, okay, what else can we do here?
我们要花很多时间，好吧，我们还能在这里做什么？
It's like, no actually bigger fish to fry in a lot of other areas.
就好像，在许多其他领域实际上没有更大的鱼可煎。
So it helps the team just feel really good that their work is really the things that were good.
因此，这有助于团队感觉非常好，因为他们的工作确实是好的。
Archie Abrams: Another one that went the other way, which was really interesting was in our online store, and this might be if you use Shopify, we have sections and blocks that come pre-configured.
Archie Abrams：另一个相反的方式，非常有趣的是我们的在线商店，这可能是如果您使用 Shopify，我们有预先配置的部分和块。
And so we tested, okay, if we give you a pre-configured block of you should have an image up top, then a text banner, and then a collage with your products.
所以我们测试了，好吧，如果我们给你一个预先配置的块，你的顶部应该有一个图像，然后是一个文本横幅，然后是你的产品的拼贴画。
That should help folks understand what to do when they're building the online store.
这应该可以帮助人们了解在建立在线商店时应该做什么。
It actually had no lift in people converting to a paying merchant.
实际上，它对人们转向付费商家没有任何帮助。
Archie Abrams: However, when we looked longer term on that six months later, it had a pretty massive impact on the number of people who were selling and producing GMV.
Archie Abrams：然而，当我们在六个月后进行更长期的观察时，它对销售和生产 GMV 的人数产生了相当大的影响。
And why is that?
这是为什么呢？
Because it didn't likely really influence anyone to buy Shopify or pay for Shopify.
因为它不太可能真正影响任何人购买 Shopify 或为 Shopify 付费。
But the people who used it created better stores that were higher converting, and so they got early sales.
但使用它的人创建了更好的商店，转化率更高，因此他们获得了早期销售。
They actually converted one of their visitors and they got momentum, and they stuck with entrepreneurship a little bit longer.
他们实际上改变了一位访客，并且获得了动力，并且他们在创业上坚持了更长的时间。
And we saw that in that opposite way.
我们以相反的方式看到了这一点。
Archie Abrams: And so this is an example where that neutral, and so we tend to ship neutral.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：这是一个中立的例子，所以我们倾向于中立。
It's like it could be positive and so let's let it go if we have good intuition about it and it'll turn.
就好像它可能是积极的，所以如果我们对它有良好的直觉，那就让它过去吧，它会扭转的。
So we've seen a bunch of these things go in very different directions.
所以我们看到很多事情朝着截然不同的方向发展。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is so fascinating.
Lenny Rachitsky：这太令人着迷了。
I didn't realize that you ship neutral experiments.
我没有意识到你进行了中立实验。
That's an interesting insight.
这是一个有趣的见解。
So it's like if you feel good about it and it's neutral, you ship it?
所以如果你感觉良好并且它是中性的，你就会发货吗？
Archie Abrams: In our culture of the kind of aim heavy, if the intuition is right that this probably is helping merchants, why do we start with that the original control is better if it's neutral?
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：在我们这种目标重的文化中，如果直觉是正确的，这可能会帮助商人，为什么我们一开始就认为原始控制如果是中性的会更好呢？
Let's start with, what would we have shipped if we were a blank slate?
首先，如果我们是一张白纸，我们会运送什么？
And if it's neutral, actually neither is better, so let's just pick the one we feel better about and ship that.
如果它是中性的，实际上两者都不是更好，所以让我们选择我们感觉更好的一个并发布它。
Lenny Rachitsky: Makes so much sense.
Lenny Rachitsky：很有道理。
Oh man.
噢，伙计。
Okay, so let's talk about this a little bit more.
好吧，让我们再多讨论一下这个问题。
So this aim heavy concept, this idea of thinking 100 years out, can you just share more about that insight and that philosophy?
所以这个目标重的概念，这个思考 100 年后的想法，你能分享更多关于这种见解和哲学吗？
I know it sounds like it comes from Tobi of how he likes to think about the business.
我知道这听起来像是 Tobi 所说的关于他对业务的看法。
Archie Abrams: Totally.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：完全可以。
It is all Tobi of really making sure Shopify is so oriented around, we are here to build 100 year company.
Tobi 真正确保了 Shopify 的定位，我们是为了建立 100 周年的公司。
And so the decisions we're going to make are really oriented towards the long-term success of merchants, of Shopify.
因此，我们要做的决定实际上是为了 Shopify 商家的长期成功。
Embedded in all of our principles are make the best product in the world, make money to do more of one.
我们所有的原则都是制造世界上最好的产品，赚钱做更多的事情。
Never reverse principles two and three.
永远不要颠倒第二条和第三条原则。
In every kind of executive meeting, every town hall, that slide comes up.
在各种行政会议、每个市政厅中，这张幻灯片都会出现。
It's like you've been at Shopify, you've probably seen that slide 10,000 times.
就像您去过 Shopify 一样，您可能已经看过该幻灯片 10,000 次。
But it's an important reminder job is to build the best product for merchants over the long period of time.
但这是一个重要的提醒，工作是长期为商家打造最好的产品。
And then all of the metrics and the make money part of it, secondary to that.
然后是所有的指标和其中的赚钱部分，这是次要的。
So what we care about is that long term piece.
所以我们关心的是长期的部分。
It ties a little bit to that original conversation about entrepreneurs and being the core of why we just want more people to start businesses and go.
它与关于企业家的原始对话有一点联系，也是我们希望更多人创业并继续创业的核心原因。
Archie Abrams: It's very seductive I think in most companies, including in Shopify because we can support large enterprise businesses today, right?
Archie Abrams：我认为这对大多数公司（包括 Shopify）来说非常有吸引力，因为我们今天可以支持大型企业业务，对吧？
Big brands who want to get off an outdated solution and come over to Shopify.
想要摆脱过时的解决方案并转向 Shopify 的大品牌。
It's very easy to just say, "Oh, that's very concrete." There's an existing business, we want to have them come join Shopify.
很容易说：“哦，这非常具体。”有一个现有的业务，我们希望他们加入 Shopify。
Archie Abrams: And in the short term it feels really good.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：从短期来看，感觉真的很好。
It brings a lot of revenue right away.
它立即带来了大量的收入。
But if you're thinking about the long-term 100 years from now, guess what?
但如果你考虑 100 年后的长远发展，你猜怎么着？
All of the big brands of today be out of business.
今天所有的大品牌都倒闭了。
And many of them will be out of business in 30, 40, 50 years.
其中许多将在 30 年、40 年、50 年后倒闭。
The real success of Shopify is getting every business to start with us and go, but making that type of an investment and being so focused on that entrepreneur segment and making it easier is how we build a very, very long-term oriented company.
Shopify 的真正成功在于让每家企业都与我们一起起步并发展，但进行此类投资并如此专注于企业家细分市场并使其变得更容易是我们建立一家非常非常长期导向的公司的方式。
So just even how we do capital investment, how we do product decision-making comes back to, hey, we can't chase the short-term.
因此，即使我们如何进行资本投资，如何进行产品决策，也会回到，嘿，我们不能追逐短期。
Even more concrete things.
甚至更具体的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there an example that comes to mind where you did that where something short-term looked like, "We should definitely do this," but we're thinking thinking 100 years out so we're going to approach it this way?
Lenny Rachitsky：你是否想到过这样一个例子，短期的事情看起来像是“我们绝对应该这样做”，但我们正在考虑 100 年后，所以我们将以这种方式实现它？
Archie Abrams: It's kind of very much just imbued in the culture.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：这在很大程度上已经融入了文化中。
Almost everything kind of feels that way.
几乎所有事情都有这样的感觉。
And I'll give, practically speaking, every six weeks all the R&D group leads we get together and we sit with Tobi and each other and review every single project across the company.
实际上，我将每六周向所有研发团队领导汇报一次，我们会聚在一起，与托比和其他人坐在一起，审查整个公司的每个项目。
Every six weeks, every single R&D pull up the dashboard, and look at it.
每六周，每个研发人员都会调出仪表板并查看它。
Archie Abrams: And in that conversation, so much of the conversation is about both the technical how.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：在那次谈话中，大部分谈话都是关于技术如何进行的。
How are we building this in a way that allows for Shopify to have optionality in the technical decisions that we are making?
我们如何以允许 Shopify 在我们正在制定的技术决策中具有选择性的方式构建它？
And I think for Tobi, one of the things I've learned and so is that how, the technical architecture determines strategy in a technology company even more than the what and who we're building for.
我认为对 Tobi 来说，我学到的一件事是，技术架构如何决定技术公司的战略，甚至比我们为什么和为谁构建更重要。
If you build the right technical how and set yourself up to have a platform that can be adaptable, flexible, that is incredibly valuable over the long term.
如果你构建了正确的技术方法，并为自己建立了一个适应性强、灵活的平台，从长远来看，这是非常有价值的。
It means we will sometimes take longer to ship a feature.
这意味着我们有时需要更长的时间来发布功能。
It means we'll not chase certain deals or what have you, but we're going to kind of make that investment.
这意味着我们不会追逐某些交易或其他什么，但我们会进行投资。
And it comes through in all of our reviews and just how we got to do our work together.
它体现在我们所有的评论以及我们如何一起工作中。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, that is really unique.
Lenny Rachitsky：哇，这真的很独特。
I've not heard of that where how...
没听说过，哪里有这样的...
Usually it's the opposite.
通常情况恰恰相反。
Let's not worry about how we're going to build this thing.
我们不用担心如何构建这个东西。
It's why are we building this thing and then when are we building it?
这就是我们为什么要建造这个东西，然后我们什么时候建造它？
And not just the architecture is the most important thing.
最重要的不仅仅是架构。
Archie Abrams: Yeah, I mean in the last one, it was great.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：是的，我的意思是最后一部非常棒。
We had a 30-minute discussion about how to build CSV importers for people coming over from different platforms, and it was all about are we using open source library, doing it internally, are we doing it in the core code base?
我们就如何为来自不同平台的人们构建 CSV 导入器进行了 30 分钟的讨论，讨论的重点是我们是否使用开源库、在内部进行、是否在核心代码库中进行？
Are we building a separate first party app to do it?
我们是否正在构建一个单独的第一方应用程序来做到这一点？
It was incredible detail.
这是令人难以置信的细节。
Archie Abrams: This is what's amazing about Tobi.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：这就是托比的神奇之处。
The technical detail of how we're going to do this was incredibly important to get right, to kind of set up this type of infrastructure.
我们如何做到这一点的技术细节对于正确设置这种类型的基础设施非常重要。
And most companies it'd be okay what, you're going to make it easier for people to migrate their data over.
大多数公司都可以让人们更轻松地迁移数据。
Cool.
凉爽的。
Team, go figure out how.
团队，想办法吧。
And if team does figure out the how do we work on it with Tobi and the details, because the how is so important to how we build for the future.
如果团队确实弄清楚了我们如何与 Tobi 合作以及细节，因为如何对我们如何构建未来非常重要。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's fascinating.
Lenny Rachitsky：这很有趣。
And usually it's how do we do this as quick as possible, because CVS importing is not our core differentiator.
通常，问题在于我们如何尽快做到这一点，因为 CVS 导入不是我们的核心优势。
It'll just build something good enough, we'll ship it, we'll move on.
它只会构建出足够好的东西，我们将交付它，我们将继续前进。
Lenny Rachitsky: Totally the opposite.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：完全相反。
That is fascinating.
这很有趣。
What's also really interesting about this is I think about Brian Chesky at Airbnb where I worked for a while and his...
真正有趣的是，我想到了我在 Airbnb 工作过一段时间的布莱恩·切斯基 (Brian Chesky)，以及他的……
So one, he also had this idea of the 100-year vision and thinking for the future way out in 100 years.
所以一来，他也有这个100年愿景的想法，对100年后未来出路的思考。
But interestingly, since he's a designer, he had a very different focus.
但有趣的是，由于他是一名设计师，他的关注点却截然不同。
So Tobi, he was an engineer.
所以托比，他是一名工程师。
He still codes from what I can see on Twitter, he still-
他仍然根据我在 Twitter 上看到的内容进行编码，他仍然-
Lenny Rachitsky: So I could see why his brain goes there and why he's really strong in the how.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以我可以明白为什么他的大脑会去那里，以及为什么他在如何做方面非常强大。
Brian on the other hand is very focused on the experience and making sure the design is amazing, and the app is exactly what he wants it to feel like.
另一方面，布莱恩非常注重体验并确保设计令人惊叹，并且该应用程序正是他想要的感觉。
It is very experience oriented.
这是非常注重体验的。
So it's interesting that these founders lean into the thing that they're strong at, and understand deeply, and that ideally connects with the way this business specifically wins and grows.
因此，有趣的是，这些创始人倾向于他们擅长的事情，并且深入了解，并且理想地与该企业特定的获胜和发展方式联系起来。
And it makes sense a platform, I could see why engineering would be so essential to get right.
这是一个有意义的平台，我可以理解为什么工程对于正确实施如此重要。
Travel, hospitality, consumer app.
旅游、酒店、消费者应用程序。
I could see why design is so important.
我明白为什么设计如此重要。
Lenny Rachitsky: Fascinating.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：令人着迷。
One more tidbit that I've heard about how you all think about this is metrics.
我听说的关于你们对此的看法的另一则趣闻是指标。
And you mentioned before we started recording that a lot of the company doesn't actually have metrics that drive what they build, especially within the core business, which I think surprised a lot of people.
在我们开始记录之前，您提到过，很多公司实际上并没有衡量标准来驱动他们所构建的产品，特别是在核心业务中，我认为这让很多人感到惊讶。
Most people are like, "Every team needs a metric and a KPI, and this is how we measure progress and this is how we know if they're doing well." Talk about just how that works, how most of the companies doesn't have a metric.
大多数人都会说，“每个团队都需要一个指标和 KPI，这就是我们衡量进度的方式，也是我们了解他们是否做得很好的方式。”谈谈它是如何运作的，大多数公司如何没有衡量标准。
Archie Abrams: Yeah.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：是的。
It's funny, we ran against KPIs are basically banned as OKRs or banned and all that.
有趣的是，我们反对 KPI 基本上被禁止为 OKR 或被禁止等等。
And so certainly, in growth you have metrics, but they take a different form.
当然，在增长中你有衡量标准，但它们采取不同的形式。
And then in core, it truly is, do we have conviction that this is the right technical foundation to build the future of commerce?
从本质上讲，我们是否确信这是构建商业未来的正确技术基础？
And that is built through certainly looking at data.
这是通过查看数据而建立的。
So it's not that teams are not looking at data and using it as a piece of their puzzle, but it's not the overriding.
因此，并不是说团队没有查看数据并将其用作拼图的一部分，但这并不是最重要的。
And when we go to ship a feature in core, it's not like a team is held accountable for this metric over this six months.
当我们在核心中发布某个功能时，团队并不需要在这六个月内对这个指标负责。
It's much more, did we ship the right thing?
更重要的是，我们运送的东西正确吗？
And we're going to kind of get at that through a variety of lenses.
我们将通过各种视角来解决这个问题。
Could be some of that could be data, qualitative, just our own product sense of what's good or not.
其中一些可能是数据、定性的，只是我们自己对产品好坏的感觉。
Archie Abrams: And so I think the upside of that is I think we tend to ship things in core and that are incredibly forward-facing and we take more risk.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：所以我认为这样做的好处是我们倾向于在核心中交付东西，并且这些东西具有令人难以置信的前瞻性，并且我们承担更多的风险。
I think to acknowledge some of the downside of it though is sometimes conversations get extremely subjective about what is the right thing to do.
我认为承认它的一些缺点，但有时关于什么是正确的事情的对话变得非常主观。
And so that requires the right way of having good discussions, openness from all leaders and from teams to debate those things.
因此，这需要以正确的方式进行良好的讨论，所有领导者和团队都以开放的态度来辩论这些事情。
But it does result in some squishiness, which again has its pros and cons, but taste is what drives a lot of what we're shipping in core.
但它确实会导致一些柔软，这又有利有弊，但味道是我们在核心中运送的许多东西的驱动力。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, I'm glad you touched on that.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我很高兴你提到这一点。
I was going to say, okay, everyone would love this idea of just build things that we think are awesome.
我想说，好吧，每个人都会喜欢这个想法，即构建我们认为很棒的东西。
It's going to be great.
会很棒的。
But then you build a whole org with teams and people building stuff.
但随后你会建立一个完整的组织，由团队和人员构建东西。
How does one know if they're building things that are good and helping versus not?
人们如何知道他们正在构建的东西是否是好的、是否有帮助？
Lenny Rachitsky: And you're pointing out there are pros and cons to that.
Lenny Rachitsky：您指出这有利有弊。
The pros is we're not optimizing for some short-term wins and driving some poor metric.
优点是我们不会为了一些短期的胜利而优化并推动一些糟糕的指标。
The con is you might ship stuff that...
缺点是你可能会运送一些东西......
There's a lot of subjectivity, and people may not agree, and it's a lot of squishy stuff.
有很多主观性，人们可能不同意，而且有很多软弱的东西。
Archie Abrams: Yeah, totally.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：是的，完全可以。
Glen, who's heads of core product, I mean one of the things that's so impressive about Glen and that core team is they go incredibly deep into every single release that is shipped.
格伦（Glen）是核心产品的负责人，我的意思是格伦和核心团队令人印象深刻的一件事是他们对发布的每个版本都进行了令人难以置信的深入研究。
And so you do have a central eye on the quality and how it all fits together.
因此，您确实对质量以及它们如何结合在一起有中心的关注。
Archie Abrams: And so that I think helps make sure there's a consistent kind of bar for taste.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：我认为这有助于确保口味一致。
A bunch of folks Tobi obviously that can enforce that.
托比（Tobi）等一群人显然可以强制执行这一点。
So it's subjective, but it's objective in the sense that it's kind of a small number of people who really hold what that bar is and needs to be.
所以它是主观的，但它是客观的，因为只有少数人真正掌握了这个标准并且需要达到这个标准。
I think if it's just subjective, let's just ship what we want without a couple people really holding that quality and that taste bar, that's where things go really sideways.
我认为，如果这只是主观的，那么我们就只提供我们想要的东西，而没有几个人真正保持这种质量和品味，那就是事情真正走向侧面的地方。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
That's exactly what I was going to ask is, who's the ultimate decider of taste and what is good?
这正是我要问的，谁是品味的最终决定者，什么是好的？
And so it sounds like basically Tobi above, and then he's kind of deputized Glen and relies on him to make a lot of these final calls.
所以听起来基本上是上面的托比，然后他有点像格伦的代理，并依靠他做出很多这样的最后决定。
And then I imagine Glen has some folks that he kind of deputizes to make smaller decisions along the way.
然后我想格伦会委托一些人一路做出较小的决定。
Or not, or he's very involved in everything.
或者不是，或者他对所有事情都非常投入。
Archie Abrams: And I think this is the fun thing about Shopify.
Archie Abrams：我认为这是 Shopify 的有趣之处。
Literally we have our own internal project management system that's been kind of crafted just for Shopify and every shift-
从字面上看，我们有自己的内部项目管理系统，该系统是专门为 Shopify 和每个班次精心设计的 -
Lenny Rachitsky: What is that called by the way?
Lenny Rachitsky：顺便问一下，那叫什么？
It's got a cool name, right?
它有一个很酷的名字，对吧？
Archie Abrams: So get shit done.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：所以，把事情做好吧。
And every project, so you got a core project, you have emergency service, you got growth project.
每个项目都有一个核心项目，有紧急服务，有增长项目。
And the expectation is that the group leads.
我们的期望是该小组处于领先地位。
Every single project that goes out has a few minute video with Figmas and everything, and everything that shipped.
每个发布的项目都有一段几分钟的 Figmas 视频以及所有发布的内容。
Needs to be okay-toed, so approved by the group lead.
需要表现良好，并得到组长的批准。
There's nothing that can ship without that okay-to approval.
未经许可批准，任何产品都无法发货。
And that okay-to approval has to be Glen, Carl, myself with different groups.
同意批准的人必须是格伦、卡尔、我自己以及不同的团体。
And so that is how everything is reviewed.
这就是一切的审查方式。
Now of course there's great amazing teams that do amazing work, but it is that that's how the system works.
当然，现在有一些很棒的团队做了令人惊叹的工作，但这就是系统的运作方式。
Lenny Rachitsky: And okay-to specifically means someone above reviews it or all this whole team, everyone looks at it?
Lenny Rachitsky：好吧，具体是指上面有人评论它，或者整个团队，每个人都在看它？
Archie Abrams: No. So Glen reviews the core stuff.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：不。所以格伦回顾了核心内容。
Carl reviews the MS. Okay-to.
卡尔评论了 MS。好的。
It's interesting.
这很有趣。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's basically Glen is founder mode and not as a founder where he's involved in all the details, has final say.
Lenny Rachitsky：基本上，格伦是创始人模式，而不是作为创始人，他参与所有细节，拥有最终决定权。
So this is a really cool example of founder mode, but not as a founder.
所以这是创始人模式的一个非常酷的例子，但不是作为创始人。
Lenny Rachitsky: In the way you guys operate.
Lenny Rachitsky：按照你们的运作方式。
And I imagine sometimes Tobi disagrees with Glen and then they talk about it and things get ironed out.
我想有时托比不同意格伦，然后他们讨论这个问题，事情就解决了。
Archie Abrams: Totally.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：完全可以。
And that's why we come together every six weeks, everyone in person to review every project so we can hash out those disagreements.
这就是为什么我们每六周聚一次，每个人都亲自审查每个项目，以便我们可以解决这些分歧。
Go through all the core projects, all the merge service projects, all the growth projects.
浏览所有核心项目、所有合并服务项目、所有增长项目。
And it's a great forum to say, "Hey, here's where we disagree," really on the how and the tactics of what's happening.
这是一个很好的论坛，可以说“嘿，这就是我们分歧的地方”，实际上是关于发生的事情的方式和策略。
And we can flag those things, have good debates about whether there might be misalignment.
我们可以标记这些事情，就是否可能存在偏差进行充分的辩论。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
What a unique way of working.
多么独特的工作方式啊。
I'm so fascinated by all this.
我对这一切非常着迷。
So what I'm hearing essentially within Core, Glen and his team come up with, "Here's what we're going to build the next quarter." You guys have twice a year releases, is that right?
因此，我在 Core 中听到的基本上是 Glen 和他的团队得出的结论：“这就是我们下个季度要构建的内容。”你们每年发布两次，是吗？
Or is it every season?
还是每个季节都有？
Archie Abrams: Yeah, so big additions.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：是的，增加了很多内容。
Twice a year.
一年两次。
Obviously continually shipping, but we package them twice a year in a big bang.
显然，我们不断地发货，但我们每年都会一次大爆炸地包装它们两次。
Lenny Rachitsky: Big launch.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：重大发布。
Yep, I've seen those.
是的，我见过那些。
Okay.
好的。
So he's like, "Here's what we're going to do in the next release.
所以他说，“这就是我们在下一个版本中要做的事情。
We're just going to build this because we think this is right.
我们之所以要建造这个，是因为我们认为这是正确的。
And we're not driving a specific goal.
我们并没有推动一个特定的目标。
We're building for 100 years in the future.
我们正在为未来 100 年而建设。
Let's just build it." And basically you build it.
让我们来建造它吧。”基本上你构建它。
He's like, "This is great, not great, iterate until it's this good," and then ship.
他说，“这很好，也不是很好，迭代直到它这么好”，然后发布。
And great.
很棒。
Okay, this is great.
好的，这太棒了。
Okay, so then there's that team, and then there's your team, which is drive some freaking numbers, drive growth, hit these goals.
好的，那么接下来就是那个团队，然后是你的团队，他们正在推动一些惊人的数字，推动增长，实现这些目标。
How do you collaborate across these two teams?
您如何在这两个团队中进行协作？
Do you have a model for how you work together?
你们有一个如何合作的模式吗？
Because these feel like very different ways of working?
因为这些感觉像是非常不同的工作方式？
Archie Abrams: Yeah, honestly, it's been one of the things I'm very proud of.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：是的，老实说，这是我非常自豪的事情之一。
We built a really great partnership for the last three and a half years, because it's intentionally meant to be almost at odds, and that's part of the structure of how we want to work.
在过去的三年半里，我们建立了非常好的合作伙伴关系，因为这是故意的，几乎是不一致的，而这也是我们希望如何工作的结构的一部分。
Archie Abrams: But it comes from, I think, a place of respect on both sides.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：但我认为，它来自于双方的尊重。
And I'd say for anyone, it's okay, here's what growth is going to do.
我想说，对任何人来说，没关系，这就是增长的作用。
We're going to do it in a way that is high quality, that is shipping really good stuff for merchants.
我们将以高质量的方式来做这件事，为商家提供真正好的东西。
We're probably going to approach it in a faster way.
我们可能会以更快的方式接近它。
We might disagree on things, but we're going to have reasonable paths to handle that conflict.
我们可能在某些事情上存在分歧，但我们将有合理的途径来处理冲突。
Archie Abrams: And so while there's no magic bullet, it wasn't like these are the surfaces that growth can touch, these are not.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：虽然没有灵丹妙药，但这些表面并不是生长可以触及的，但它们不是。
It was like you can go anywhere in the product, but let's go figure out how to work together to figure out that quality bar to understand when you're going to be different on it, on the quality bar to get something out to learn, and just building trust along the way that we're actually going to ship high quality things and we ship it to 100% and move.
就好像你可以去产品的任何地方，但让我们来弄清楚如何共同努力找出质量标准，以了解你何时会在产品上有所不同，在质量标准上学习一些东西，并在我们实际上将交付高质量产品的过程中建立信任，我们将其交付到 100% 并继续前进。
And so a lot of great work on the team to make those relationships really strong.
为了使这些关系真正牢固，团队进行了大量的工作。
Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。
So basically, you guys are like, "Moving this button over here is going to drive so much growth," and then Glen's like, "No, this is not acceptable.
所以基本上，你们会说，“把这个按钮移到这里将会推动如此大的增长，”然后格伦会说，“不，这是不可接受的。
We don't want a button here.
我们不需要这里的按钮。
This looks terrible.
这看起来很糟糕。
Everyone's going to hate it." So that's the healthy tension.
每个人都会讨厌它。”这就是健康的紧张情绪。
I'm describing a combative-
我正在描述一个好斗的——
Archie Abrams: totally.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：完全可以。
And it's like, okay, so how are we going to work to figure this out?
就像，好吧，那么我们要如何解决这个问题呢？
It might be, "Hey, we're going to move the button.
可能是，“嘿，我们要移动按钮。
Hey let's run the test," but see the short-term lift.
嘿，让我们进行一下测试吧，”但看看短期的提升。
You know we're going to monitor it long term.
你知道我们会长期监控它。
You know when we ship it, it's going to be high quality, high quality polish.
你知道，当我们发货时，它将是高品质、高品质的抛光剂。
And you trust us to make those trade-offs.
您相信我们能够做出这些权衡。
Archie Abrams: I wish I had a better answer of it's very human.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：我希望我有一个更好的答案，因为它非常人性化。
It's very that trust that's that's very important in any of these.
在任何这些事情中，信任都是非常重要的。
I think growth with other teams is like, there's no replacement for just the human trust and then following through on commitments of no, we are actually going to make this thing really good.
我认为与其他团队的成长就像，没有什么可以替代人类的信任，然后履行“不”的承诺，我们实际上会让这件事变得非常好。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there an example of that, that comes to mind where you had something that was you thought was going to drive meaningful growth?
Lenny Rachitsky：有没有一个例子，让你想到一些你认为会推动有意义的增长的东西？
You showed it to Glenn, he is like, "No, don't know about this." And then either you iterated or you just forget it, this isn't right for the platform even though it's going to drive some meaningful growth?
你把它拿给格伦看，他说，“不，不知道这个。”然后要么你迭代，要么你就忘记了，这对平台来说是不合适的，尽管它会推动一些有意义的增长？
Archie Abrams: The place that we often come back to is, and this is with I think Tobi is great, Tobi and Glen, is on wizards.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：我们经常回到的地方是，我认为托比很棒，托比和格伦，是关于巫师的。
So wizards-
所以巫师们——
Archie Abrams: Onboarding carousels.
Archie Abrams：入职轮播。
Some way that basically has folks get set up by not using the actual product.
基本上，人们通过不使用实际产品来进行设置。
And so we've always kind of danced around and we have very specific no wizard principle, but I think that sometimes the tension is wizards can serve a purpose in certain circumstances, but we've avoided doing that.
所以我们总是在跳舞，我们有非常具体的无巫师原则，但我认为有时紧张的是巫师可以在某些情况下达到目的，但我们避免这样做。
But we've always worked to try to make the principles of what a wizard does really well, which is it simplifies the product into something that allows people to have a lower bar, to try to work with core to bring that into the actual experience itself.
但我们一直致力于尝试使向导真正擅长的原则，即将产品简化为允许人们降低门槛的东西，尝试与核心合作，将其带入实际体验本身。
Archie Abrams: So the example of that experiment I mentioned to you of giving pre-filled sections in the online store editor, you could have solved that in a wizardy way of, "Enter a few things, and we're going to generate these sections for you." Instead, we actually took those pre-generated things based on what we know about you and put it into the actual project experience itself.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：所以我向你提到的那个实验的例子是在在线商店编辑器中提供预填充的部分，你可以用一种神奇的方式解决这个问题，“输入一些东西，我们将为你生成这些部分。”相反，我们实际上根据我们对您的了解，将这些预先生成的东西放入实际的项目体验中。
Archie Abrams: So it tried to get at some of the principles of what a wizard can do well without avoiding the wizard principle, without creating actual wizard.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：所以它试图了解巫师可以做什么的一些原则，而不回避巫师原则，而不创建实际的巫师。
So that's been some of the, how do we work together to get the intent of what the growth ideas but in a way that's consistent with the way we want to build in core?
这就是我们如何共同努力以符合我们想要的核心构建方式的方式来实现增长想法的意图？
Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。
And I get why that you think about this a lot because you talked about one of the biggest levers is onboarding and helping more people get activated, and so I could see why you spent a lot of time thinking about how do we help more people succeed there.
我明白为什么你经常思考这个问题，因为你谈到最大的杠杆之一是入职并帮助更多的人被激活，所以我可以理解为什么你花了很多时间思考我们如何帮助更多的人取得成功。
Lenny Rachitsky: I want to ask your insight on this idea that people might be listening to this and feeling like, "Oh, we need to build a team that just builds great product and is not constrained by metrics and driving growth." Short-term thinking, long-term thinking, 100 years.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想问一下您对这个想法的见解，人们可能会听到这个想法并感觉，“哦，我们需要建立一个团队，只打造出色的产品，而不受指标和推动增长的限制。”短期思考，长期思考，100年。
This is inspiring I think to a lot of companies because the sounds great.
我认为这对很多公司来说都是鼓舞人心的，因为听起来很棒。
Lenny Rachitsky: What do you think it takes to make something like that work?
Lenny Rachitsky：你认为怎样才能让这样的事情发挥作用？
Because in a bad case, this team just sits around and builds whatever they want, and the rest of the company's like, "God damn, this sucks.
因为在糟糕的情况下，这个团队只是坐在那里构建他们想要的任何东西，而公司的其他人就像，“该死的，这太糟糕了。
I have to show success in metrics and moving a metric in this team, over there just build beautiful things." Is it like you need a founder like Tobi, that prioritizes this and values it and has a very good taste and intuition?
我必须在指标方面取得成功，并在团队中推动指标，在那里只需要构建漂亮的东西即可。”你是否需要像 Tobi 这样的创始人，优先考虑这一点并重视它，并且具有非常好的品味和直觉？
What do you think are important elements of something like that, of this approach working at a company based on what you've seen?
根据您所看到的情况，您认为在公司中这种工作方法的重要要素是什么？
Archie Abrams: Yeah, I think it needs to have a very opinionated founder set of people who are driving what good looks like.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：是的，我认为它需要有一群非常固执己见的创始人，他们正在推动美好的事物。
And I think Shopify a few years ago and before maybe sometimes drifted into the mode of, "We are just going to build stuff and each kind of team is just going to build stuff not really accountable for it," and that is a very, very bad state to end up.
我认为 Shopify 几年前以及之前有时可能会陷入这样的模式：“我们只是要构建东西，而每种团队只是要构建东西，而不是真正对此负责”，这最终是一种非常非常糟糕的状态。
So I think you either have to use, my sense is metrics as accountability, which is the most common kind of way to drive accountability and focus.
所以我认为你要么必须使用，我的感觉是指标作为责任，这是推动责任和焦点的最常见的方式。
Or extremely strong founder or set of folks who have extremely strong opinions on what good is and what taste is.
或者是非常强大的创始人或一群人，他们对什么是好的、什么是品味有非常强烈的看法。
If you have one of those two, you can make it work, but the worst case is let's just go build a bunch of cool stuff in kind of a haphazard way.
如果你有这两者之一，你就可以让它工作，但最坏的情况是让我们以一种随意的方式构建一堆很酷的东西。
That I don't think would work.
我认为这行不通。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, this is great.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，这太棒了。
So either you need metrics to tell you you're doing the right thing or really correct and good taste in your founder.
因此，要么你需要指标来告诉你你正在做正确的事情，要么你的创始人确实是正确的和良好的品味。
Lenny Rachitsky: Cool.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：酷。
I think that's a really good way of...
我认为这是一个非常好的方法...
And I imagine every founder is going to think, "Oh, that's me.
我想每个创始人都会想，“哦，那就是我。
I have this, I can do this." I think it's rare in real life.
我有这个，我能做到。”我觉得现实生活中很少见。
It's rare that you're like a Tobi, or Brian Chesky, or Elon.
你很少像托比（Tobi）、布莱恩·切斯基（Brian Chesky）或埃隆（Elon）那样。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
It's hard to internalize that, but I think that's the reality.
很难内化这一点，但我认为这就是现实。
So most people will be more successful building things that are driving metrics they can track in an experiment.
因此，大多数人会更成功地构建能够驱动他们可以在实验中跟踪的指标的东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
This is very fascinating.
这非常令人着迷。
I'm so happy we're spending so much time on this.
我很高兴我们在这上面花了这么多时间。
Okay, there's a few other random things I'm going to touch on.
好吧，我还要谈一些其他随机的事情。
One is sales.
一是销售。
So historically, Shopify has been very product-like growth, very organic.
从历史上看，Shopify 的增长非常类似于产品，非常有机。
Go check it out, sign up, shop a store, start a store, grow.
去看看、注册、购物、开店、发展。
And you guys have layered on sales.
你们对销售进行了分层。
In a sales motion that's an increasing part of your business.
在销售活动中，这将成为您业务中越来越重要的一部分。
What have you learned about your team, the growth team working with sales and making that a successful relationship?
您对您的团队（与销售人员合作并使其建立成功关系的增长团队）了解了什么？
Archie Abrams: Yeah, no, it has been great over the last couple of years as built out, the sales order has added a whole new kind of motion to Shopify.
Archie Abrams：是的，不，过去几年的发展非常好，销售订单为 Shopify 增添了一种全新的动力。
As Shopify's product got better, it can serve the biggest companies in the world.
随着 Shopify 的产品变得更好，它可以为世界上最大的公司提供服务。
It's like the natural evolution.
这就像自然进化一样。
Well what are you going to do that for people to grow up on Shopify and to be the biggest companies, but we're also going to take folks another platform, bring them over.
那么你要做什么才能让人们在 Shopify 上成长并成为最大的公司，但我们也会为人们带来另一个平台，把他们带过来。
Archie Abrams: For growth in sales, I think the biggest learning from the the R&D side at least has been the scale is very different with sales, and so it's really hard to use as much quantitative data to make growth, to make some of those decisions.
Archie Abrams：对于销售增长，我认为研发方面最大的学习至少是规模与销售有很大不同，因此很难使用尽可能多的定量数据来实现增长，做出一些决策。
Archie Abrams: And so a lot of it has been building much more qualitative insights working with merchant success, sales about the challenges they're facing and onboarding a large customer.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：因此，其中很大一部分是与商家的成功、有关他们面临的挑战的销售以及吸引大客户建立更多的定性见解。
So how do we build import tools that work for them?
那么我们如何构建适合他们的导入工具呢？
How do we make sure they have the right guidance in the product for a very different set of use cases?
我们如何确保他们在产品中针对不同的用例提供正确的指导？
So a lot of it has just been very much empathy building with sales about what that merchant journey looks like, and quite frankly challenging ourselves to think differently.
因此，其中很大一部分就是与销售人员建立起对商业旅程的同理心，并坦率地挑战自己以不同的方式思考。
It's been one thing.
这是一回事。
Archie Abrams: And then second, we kind of built two very distinct funnels for a little bit.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：其次，我们暂时构建了两个非常不同的漏斗。
There's a sales funnel.
有一个销售漏斗。
You come in, you contact us, that's it.
您进来，联系我们，就这样。
There's no mention of self-service, there's no this.
没有提到自助服务，没有这个。
There's just drive MQLs, boom.
只有驱动 MQL，繁荣。
Then there's the self-service thing.
然后就是自助服务。
There's no mention of sales anywhere.
没有任何地方提到销售。
Archie Abrams: So one of the last thing the year, last year we've been really doing is how do we create these hyper journeys where there is...
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：所以今年我们真正做的最后一件事就是如何创造这些超级旅程......
We shouldn't force the merchant to choose, do you want to talk to sales?
我们不应该强迫商家选择，你要和销售谈谈吗？
You want to do self-service?
您想要自助服务吗？
Should give them the options, whatever path that they want to go on.
应该给他们选择，无论他们想走什么路。
Archie Abrams: And so a lot of that has been building into the self-service journey over to sales and then from sales into self-service.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：因此，其中很多内容都融入了自助服务之旅，转向销售，然后从销售转向自助服务。
That's broken a lot of metrics in the business.
这打破了很多业务指标。
That's broken a lot of ways people have thought about their jobs, and so there's been a lot of cultural resetting and just getting smarter from a metric standpoint about, how do we measure this thing of hybrid journey?
这打破了人们对工作的很多思考方式，因此出现了很多文化重置，并且从度量的角度变得更加聪明，我们如何衡量混合旅程？
They came in via self-service, they went over to sales.
他们通过自助服务进入，然后转向销售。
How do we value each of those components in the process?
我们如何评估流程中的每个组成部分？
And transparently, that's something we're still getting better at, but it's really important to get there.
显然，我们仍在改进这方面，但实现这一目标非常重要。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there an example of something that broke that would be illustrative of what you're describing?
Lenny Rachitsky：是否有一个损坏的例子可以说明您所描述的情况？
Archie Abrams: Yeah.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：是的。
So I think that breaks is drive someone from an ad over to self-service.
所以我认为休息会促使人们从广告转向自助服务。
We typically look at only the self-service LTV of that person.
我们通常只关注该人的自助生命周期价值。
But what happens if they come in, they sign up via self-service and then they go talk to sales?
但如果他们进来，通过自助服务注册，然后与销售人员交谈，会发生什么？
They get changed to a sales driven merchant, which means that that value of that merchant, which is usually actually quite large, does not get associated back to that ad campaign.
他们变成了销售驱动型商家，这意味着该商家的价值（通常实际上相当大）不会与该广告活动相关联。
Oh, guess what that means?
哦，猜猜这意味着什么？
That means you would probably reduce investment on that ad campaign because you weren't valuing that.
这意味着您可能会减少对该广告活动的投资，因为您没有重视这一点。
Our system had two different models for calculating LTV.
我们的系统有两种不同的模型来计算 LTV。
Sales driven one, and a self-service one.
一种是销售驱动型，另一种是自助服务型。
Uh oh, we're going to make suboptimal investment decisions now by kind of moving things around even though it's the right thing to do.
呃哦，我们现在将通过改变事情来做出次优的投资决策，尽管这是正确的做法。
Archie Abrams: So a lot of it's in rebuilding all instrumentation, how we do LTV modeling, how we do attribution, how we do incrementality testing across each of those different types of outcomes, because it was not an intuitive thing for us originally because we had built all of these systems with a much more siloed view.
Archie Abrams：因此，其中很大一部分是重建所有工具，我们如何进行 LTV 建模，我们如何进行归因，我们如何对每种不同类型的结果进行增量测试，因为这对我们来说最初并不是一件直观的事情，因为我们以更加孤立的视图构建了所有这些系统。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, basically attribution gets a lot more complicated.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，基本上归因变得更加复杂。
Are you going in a multi-touch attribution direction or is there something even more clever?
您是否正在朝多点触控归因方向发展，还是有更聪明的方法？
Archie Abrams: My rant is I am...
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：我的咆哮是我......
Multi-touch attribution as its place.
多点触控归因就如其所用。
I think ideally what we want to get through is what we really care about is incrementality.
我认为理想情况下，我们想要解决的是我们真正关心的是增量。
So incrementality is kind of the gold standards, for people who are less like attribution measure is, how do you assign value to a given touch point, right?
因此，增量是一种黄金标准，对于那些不太喜欢归因衡量标准的人来说，如何为给定的接触点分配价值，对吧？
Click, a view, etc. But it doesn't tell you causally what drove something.
单击、视图等。但它并不能告诉您因果关系是什么驱动了某件事。
That's where incrementality tells you.
这就是增量告诉你的地方。
Incrementality test is basically don't show ads on meta for certain number of people.
增量测试基本上是不在元上为一定数量的人展示广告。
Show it to the other set, see what the lift is and the outcome.
将其展示给其他组，看看提升力是什么以及结果。
Archie Abrams: A lot of what we're doing is trying to get a lot, is continuing to get even more sophisticated in incrementality measurement for not just self-serve outcomes, but for self-service outcomes that then drive to sales for sales specific outcomes.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：我们正在做的很多事情都在努力获得更多，并继续在增量测量方面变得更加复杂，不仅是为了自助服务结果，而且是为了自助服务结果，然后推动销售以获得特定的销售结果。
And as soon as we have that kind of incrementality at the channel level, we can get a lot more sophisticated in terms of our bidding, budgeting, and all of that.
一旦我们在渠道层面有了这种增量，我们就可以在竞价、预算等方面变得更加复杂。
But that's really the key thing we want to get to.
但这确实是我们想要实现的关键目标。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's certain topics that alone can be their own podcast conversation to just dive deep into this stuff.
Lenny Rachitsky：有些主题可以单独作为他们自己的播客对话来深入研究这些内容。
But I'm going to stop myself and I'll go further down that track.
但我会停下来，沿着这条路走得更远。
Let me touch on a couple more things before I let you go.
在我让你走之前，让我再谈几件事。
Lenny Rachitsky: One is marketing.
Lenny Rachitsky：一是营销。
So we talked about sales, marketing.
所以我们讨论了销售、营销。
You guys don't have a CMO, there's no Shopify CMO.
你们没有 CMO，没有 Shopify CMO。
Instead you embed marketing leads within the org.
相反，您将营销线索嵌入组织内。
For folks that are trying to grapple with that, should we hire CMO?
对于那些试图解决这个问题的人来说，我们应该聘请 CMO 吗？
Should we do something else?
我们应该做点别的吗？
What have you learned about maybe the benefits and also maybe some downsides of approaching it the way you guys have approached it?
对于像你们那样处理它的方式的好处和坏处，你了解到了什么？
Archie Abrams: The benefit is, so there's growth marketing who sits in growth, there's revenue marketing who sits over closer to sales.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：好处是，增长营销负责增长，收益营销则更接近销售。
There's a brand team under Harley who does amazing work.
哈雷旗下有一个品牌团队，他们的工作非常出色。
Our president.
我们的总统。
There's marketing embedded in core and PMM, sit with the product managers there.
核心和 PMM 中嵌入了营销，与产品经理坐在一起。
There's shop marketing on a consumer side.
消费者方面有商店营销。
So marketing is truly everywhere in the org.
因此，营销在组织中确实无处不在。
Archie Abrams: And I think the benefit of it is it's closest to the primary goal that those marketers are trying to do.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：我认为它的好处是它最接近那些营销人员想要实现的主要目标。
They sit with growth so we can focus on that self-service motion.
它们伴随着增长，因此我们可以专注于自助服务运动。
Harley is an amazing communicator, so brand sits with him so he can have a lot of influence over that.
哈雷是一位出色的沟通者，因此品牌与他坐在一起，这样他就可以对此产生很大的影响。
And so I think it sits with the people its most relevant outcomes are driving, which is great.
因此，我认为它与最相关的结果所驱动的人们息息相关，这很好。
It allows us move faster with less kind of coordination.
它使我们能够以更少的协调行动更快。
Archie Abrams: I think it only works because Tobi and Harley has such amazing intuition on what the brand is, needs to be, and all of that.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：我认为它之所以有效，是因为托比和哈雷对品牌是什么、需要成为什么以及所有这些有着惊人的直觉。
Some of what the CMO does of kind of creating the cohesive story of Shopify it held in their heads and they have the pen on that.
CMO 所做的一些工作是在他们的脑海中创造一个有凝聚力的 Shopify 故事，并且他们有笔在这上面。
Archie Abrams: And so that allows then, that piece of that CMO's job to not be as important at Shopify.
Archie Abrams：这样一来，CMO 的那部分工作在 Shopify 就不那么重要了。
But the other pieces are obviously critical, but they can be now closer to the action and where they're going to drive the most impact.
但其他部分显然很关键，但它们现在可以更接近行动以及它们将产生最大影响的地方。
The downside is things are sometimes very messy.
缺点是事情有时非常混乱。
So that's...
所以那就是...
Lenny Rachitsky: It's another example where the founder, their background and interest in skills can impact significantly the way the work is structured and who you hire and don't hire.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是另一个例子，创始人、他们的背景和对技能的兴趣可以显着影响工作的结构方式以及你雇用和不雇用的人。
Okay, one last question.
好的，最后一个问题。
Totally different topic, discounting.
完全不同的主题，折扣。
So you worked at Udemy for a long time.
您在 Udemy 工作了很长时间。
And from what I understand, discounting was one of the key reasons Udemy succeeded and one of the big differentiators.
据我了解，折扣是 Udemy 成功的关键原因之一，也是最大的差异化因素之一。
I'm curious what you learned about discounting, the power of discounting as a growth lever.
我很好奇你对折扣了解了什么，以及折扣作为增长杠杆的力量。
Archie Abrams: Yeah, so Udemy is a very an online marketplace for online courses.
Archie Abrams：是的，Udemy 是一个非常在线课程的在线市场。
So come on course.
所以来吧。
And I think what was happening in I started, and we were there 2012-ish was people were like, "What is this online course thing?
我想我刚开始的时候发生了什么，我们在 2012 年左右就在那里，人们会说，“这个在线课程是什么？
I don't really understand what it is.
我真的不明白那是什么。
I don't understand what the value is and what I'm willing to pay."
我不明白它的价值是什么以及我愿意付出什么。”
Archie Abrams: And so what discounting has a really powerful effect on is it can signal value with a high list price, but then bring something down to an affordable price.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：因此，折扣真正具有强大作用的是，它可以通过高标价来传达价值，然后将某些东西降到可承受的价格。
And that may seem like of course that's obvious, but in online courses what was important is the list price would be high at 100 bucks.
这似乎是理所当然的事，但在在线课程中，重要的是标价将高达 100 美元。
So it's associated with a college course.
所以它与大学课程相关。
But what people really value this thing as was a book.
但人们真正看重这个东西的是一本书。
Archie Abrams: And so you could signal very high, signal quality through price, which was very murky at that point in online learning.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：所以你可以通过价格来表明非常高的信号质量，这在当时的在线学习中是非常模糊的。
Signal value through price.
通过价格传递价值信号。
Discount it to 10 bucks, or that was a typical Udemy deal.
折扣至 10 美元，这就是典型的 Udemy 交易。
And then so 99% off, 90% off.
然后99折，90折。
We might see fire sales, but it changed the value in willingness to pay and then it tapped into the fact that, and still is education is very aspirational.
我们可能会看到甩卖，但它改变了支付意愿的价值，然后它利用了这样一个事实：教育仍然是非常令人向往的。
Archie Abrams: And so what a lot of people missed in education is yes, we want people to actually take the course, but that's actually in many cases not the job to be done.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：所以很多人在教育中错过的是，我们希望人们真正参加这门课程，但实际上在很多情况下这并不是我们要做的工作。
That there's an emotional job that's even more important, which is I'm feeling like I'm making progress in my educational journey, and just the act of purchasing a course or the act of buying a book is progress.
有一项情感工作更为重要，那就是我感觉自己在教育之旅中取得了进步，而购买课程或购买书籍的行为就是进步。
Archie Abrams: And so if you can make it very enticing, very high value thing, cheap, urgency, you can let people make that emotional journey by the act of purchasing, which then allowed us to actually have very good retention.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：所以，如果你能让它变得非常诱人、价值非常高、便宜、紧迫，你就可以让人们通过购买行为进行情感之旅，这让我们实际上拥有了很好的保留率。
Because you could keep coming back to that emotional job over and over again, which just counting with urgency allowed us to do.
因为你可以一遍又一遍地回到这份情感工作，而这正是我们能够做到的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Well with that, we reached our very exciting lightning round.
就这样，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
Archie, are you ready?
阿奇，你准备好了吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: First question, what are two or three books that you recommended most to other people?
Lenny Rachitsky：第一个问题，您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？
Archie Abrams: So one, I love to go back to marketers who wrote in the 1920s.
Archie Abrams：所以，我喜欢回到 20 年代写作的营销人员那里。
And so one that I love is Scientific Advertising by Claude Hopkins.
我喜欢的一本书是克劳德·霍普金斯（Claude Hopkins）的《科学广告》。
So it's basically one of the first direct marketers that came out and he innovated on some of the concepts of copywriting and just how you sell a product around can't make this product, can't sell the product, can you tell the product will help the customer achieve their goals?
所以它基本上是最早出现的直销商之一，他对文案的一些概念进行了创新，以及如何销售产品无法制造该产品，无法销售该产品，你能告诉产品将帮助客户实现他们的目标吗？
And so it's really fun.
所以这真的很有趣。
I find it really fun to go back in time, because there's a lot of really good first principles thinking that I think we've actually lost in more modern stuff where it's like personalization band, it's optimization, all this stuff.
我发现回到过去真的很有趣，因为有很多非常好的第一原则，我认为我们实际上已经迷失在更现代的东西中，比如个性化带，优化，所有这些东西。
Where it's like how do you actually write and sell things really effectively?
比如说你如何真正有效地写作和销售东西？
Scientific Advertising, it's a great book.
科学广告，这是一本很棒的书。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's just like the name alone, it sounds really cool.
Lenny Rachitsky：就像这个名字一样，听起来真的很酷。
Especially for someone in your shoes that feels like the perfect book for your role.
特别是对于像你这样的人来说，这本书感觉像是最适合你的角色的书。
And I think there's so much wisdom in just the thing someone figured out many years ago about what convinces people to buy something is still true and people overcomplicate it.
我认为，多年前有人提出的关于如何说服人们购买某样东西的智慧仍然是正确的，人们把它复杂化了。
Just going back to the original is often really useful.
回到最初的状态往往是非常有用的。
Archie Abrams: Totally.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：完全可以。
And The Perfect Mile about the chase for sub four minute mile by Roger Bannister and a few other folks is just a wonderful...
《完美一英里》讲述了罗杰·班尼斯特和其他一些人追逐不到四分钟一英里的故事，这真是一个精彩的……
As a runner, it's a really fun book to read about perseverance, how these folks really, they all competed to get to that really amazing goal of under four minutes in a mile.
作为一名跑步者，这是一本关于毅力的书，读起来非常有趣，了解这些人如何真正地竞争，以达到一英里不到四分钟的惊人目标。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show you really enjoyed?
您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？
Archie Abrams: I went back in time and I watched for the first time actually the entire season or all the episodes of The Sopranos, which was quite fun.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：我回到过去，第一次观看《黑道家族》的整个季或所有剧集，这非常有趣。
Highly recommend.
强烈推荐。
I did that in The Wire in the last six months.
过去六个月我在《火线》中就是这样做的。
Archie Abrams: It's a lot watching.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：很多人都在关注。
Work out in the morning on my elliptical or bike, so it's a nice-
早上在我的椭圆机或自行车上锻炼，所以这是一个很好的-
Lenny Rachitsky: That's a good motivator to just work out out something.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的动力去解决一些问题。
I got to watch the next episode.
我得看下一集。
The Wire, it's hour long episodes and five seasons times 20.
《火线》，每集一小时，共五季乘以 20。
I think it's 22 episodes per season, right?
我记得每季有22集，对吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: Oh geez.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦天啊。
It's a lot of watching and I did that once and I was like, "I've got a lot of episodes to watch," but incredible.
我看了很多次，有一次我就想，“我有很多剧集要看”，但令人难以置信。
Okay.
好的。
It's funny you should say The Sopranos.
有趣的是你应该说《黑道家族》。
I feel like a number of people recently told me they're watching the full Sopranos again.
我觉得最近有很多人告诉我他们又在看完整版《黑道家族》了。
It's like a trend recently for some reason.
由于某种原因，这就像最近的一种趋势。
Lenny Rachitsky: Anyway, do you have a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love?
Lenny Rachitsky：无论如何，您最近发现有一款您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？
Archie Abrams: So the AI music creator.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：人工智能音乐创作者。
My kids and I...
我和我的孩子们...
I'm the least musical person in the world and it's been amazing.
我是世界上最不懂音乐的人，这真是太神奇了。
My kids and I will create songs together about our days, about what's going on.
我和我的孩子们将一起创作有关我们的日子和正在发生的事情的歌曲。
So it's just been really fun to be able to have a musical experience for a non-musical person, and have that creative experience for them and it's been really awesome to use.
因此，能够为非音乐人士提供音乐体验，并为他们提供创意体验，这真的很有趣，而且使用起来真的很棒。
Lenny Rachitsky: Suno is Insane.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：苏诺疯了。
I think it's Suno.ai, folks want to check it out.
我认为是 Suno.ai，人们想查看一下。
It's just such a fun party trick too, just to write a song on the spot about something that you're thinking about.
这也是一个非常有趣的派对技巧，只是当场写一首关于你正在思考的事情的歌曲。
Awesome.
惊人的。
Two more questions.
还有两个问题。
Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to, find helpful and worker life?
您是否有最喜欢的人生格言，并且经常回想起它，发现对生活有帮助和工作？
Archie Abrams: Yeah, I often come back to the plan is the plan until it's not.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：是的，我经常回想计划就是计划，直到它不是为止。
And it's basically like we have a plan.
基本上就像我们有一个计划一样。
It's the plan, it's our best, let's commit to it.
这是计划，这是我们最好的，让我们致力于它。
But acknowledge it might change and we'll deal with it then.
但承认它可能会改变，然后我们会处理它。
But if the combination of we have a plan, stay focused on that, with also the acknowledgement that you need to be flexible, and try to combine those two sometimes contradictory things of focus plan with we got to be able to react in an effective way.
但是，如果我们有一个计划，请专注于该计划，同时承认您需要保持灵活性，并尝试将重点计划的这两个有时相互矛盾的事情结合起来，我们必须能够以有效的方式做出反应。
Lenny Rachitsky: Reminds me of strong opinions loosely held as a concept.
Lenny Rachitsky：让我想起作为一个概念松散持有的强烈观点。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Okay, final question.
好的，最后一个问题。
So I asked your wife what to ask you when you came on this podcast and she suggested that I ask you about your late father who had a lot of impact on your leadership style.
所以我问你的妻子当你参加这个播客时该问你什么，她建议我问你有关你已故父亲的事情，他对你的领导风格产生了很大的影响。
So here's my question, what did you learn from your dad that impacts the way you work today?
所以我的问题是，您从父亲那里学到了什么影响您今天的工作方式？
Archie Abrams: Yeah.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：是的。
My dad a lot is a father, and he was an entrepreneur in technology.
我的父亲在很大程度上是一位父亲，他是一位技术企业家。
And I think one of the things that I so appreciate about his leadership style was the empathy, and curiosity, and kindness that he showed in everything.
我认为我非常欣赏他的领导风格的一件事是他在一切事情上表现出的同理心、好奇心和善良。
And I hope in some of the stories that of him, it's like no matter who anyone was, curious, love to engage and learn from.
我希望在他的一些故事中，无论是谁，都充满好奇，喜欢参与和学习。
And I hope that's something that I try to take inspiration from is just be with everyone kind and learn from everyone you're with and around.
我希望我能从中获得灵感，那就是与每个善良的人在一起，并向与你在一起和周围的每个人学习。
So something I think about a lot.
所以我想了很多。
Lenny Rachitsky: That super resonates.
Lenny Rachitsky：这引起了超级共鸣。
He sounds like a wonderful human as are you.
他听起来和你一样都是一个很棒的人。
Archie, this was wonderful.
阿奇，这太棒了。
We touched on so much.
我们接触了很多。
We covered so much.
我们涵盖了这么多。
I feel like we could go on for many more hours.
我觉得我们还可以继续几个小时。
Maybe we'll do round two as you learn more things at your time at Shopify.
当您在 Shopify 学习更多东西时，我们可能会进行第二轮。
Two final questions.
最后两个问题。
Where can folks find you online if they want to potentially reach out or follow the stuff you're up to, and how can listeners be useful to you?
如果人们想要接触或关注您正在做的事情，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？
Archie Abrams: So not super on social media.
阿奇·艾布拉姆斯：所以在社交媒体上并不是很出色。
But on LinkedIn, check me out, send me a message.
但在 LinkedIn 上，可以关注我，给我发消息。
And then yeah, if folks are hiring a bunch of folks, growth marketers, PMs, engineers, data folks, UXers, you want to work at Shopify and growth or other parts?
然后，是的，如果人们正在招聘一群人，增长营销人员、产品经理、工程师、数据人员、用户体验人员，你想在 Shopify 和增长部门或其他部门工作吗？
Fully remote.
完全远程。
So we'd love to have great people join.
所以我们很乐意有优秀的人加入。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
And that last point, I think I'll just highlight one of the few remaining fully remote tech companies that is not returning to work.
最后一点，我想我只想强调为数不多的没有重返工作岗位的完全远程科技公司之一。
Returning to the office work.
回到办公室工作。
Definitely work.
绝对有效。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
And sounds like basically you're hiring across all functions.
听起来基本上你正在招聘所有职能部门。
Lenny Rachitsky: Perfect.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：完美。
Archie, thank you so much for being here.
阿奇，非常感谢你来到这里。
Bye everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.
大家再见：非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。