How to nail your product positioning | April Dunford (Obviously Awesome)

April Dunford: 40 to 60% of B2B purchase processes end in no decision.

April Dunford：40% 到 60% 的 B2B 采购流程最终没有做出决定。

If you scratch on that data, the majority of those aren't saying, "Well, I'm not making a decision to buy something new because the old thing we were doing is better." That's not true at all.

如果你仔细查看这些数据，你会发现大多数人并没有说：“好吧，我不会决定购买新东西，因为我们以前做的东西更好。”这根本不是真的。

In fact, the majority of those is they couldn't figure out how to make a choice confidently.

事实上，其中大多数是他们不知道如何自信地做出选择。

So what they did was they just went to their boss and said, "You know what?

所以他们所做的就是去找老板说：“你知道吗？

Now's not a good time.

现在不是好时机。

Let's not do it now.

我们现在不这样做。

Let's do it next year.

我们明年再做吧。

Let's just delay it." Because that is the safe risk-free thing for that person who's on the hook to make the decision to do.

我们还是推迟一下吧。”因为对于做出决定的人来说，这是安全无风险的事情。

Lenny: Today.

莱尼：今天。

My guest is April Dunford.

我的客人是阿普丽尔·邓福德。

April is the world's foremost authority on product positioning.

April 是全球最重要的产品定位权威。

She's the author of the bestselling book, Obviously Awesome, which is my favorite book on positioning.

她是畅销书《明显很棒》的作者，这是我最喜欢的关于定位的书。

And this is her second time on the podcast because she just published a new book called Sales Pitch, which builds on her 25-year career as VP of marketing and advisor to companies like Google and Epic Games and many others.

这是她第二次参加播客，因为她刚刚出版了一本名为《Sales Pitch》的新书，这本书是建立在她 25 年担任 Google 和 Epic Games 等公司的营销副总裁和顾问的职业生涯基础上的。

The book guides you through a better way to pitch and sell your product.

本书将指导您如何更好地推销和销售您的产品。

And in our conversation, April shares the framework that she has seen work most often in getting potential customers to get excited about your product and to decide to buy your product.

在我们的谈话中，April 分享了她认为最常用于让潜在客户对您的产品感到兴奋并决定购买您的产品的框架。

Lenny: Like I say, at the top of this episode, you'll become better at pitching and selling your product by the end of this episode.

莱尼：就像我说的，在本集的开头，到本集结束时，你会变得更擅长推销和销售你的产品。

And if that's useful to you, which it should be, this episode is for you.

如果这对您有用（应该如此），那么这一集就是为您准备的。

With that, I bring you April Dunford after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了阿普丽尔·邓福德。

Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by Composer, the AI powered trading platform now with retirement accounts.

演讲者 1：本集由 Composer 为您带来，Composer 是一个人工智能驱动的交易平台，现在拥有退休账户。

Algorithmic trading has historically been reserved for the hedge fund elite.

算法交易历来都是对冲基金精英的专利。

Now with Composer, you can automate your trading with a library of over 1000 strategies that are easy to understand and tweak using an AI assistant and visual editor.

现在，借助 Composer，您可以使用包含 1000 多种策略的库实现交易自动化，这些策略很容易使用 AI 助手和可视化编辑器来理解和调整。

Composer is the first ever algorithmic trading platform where you don't need any coding experience.

Composer 是第一个算法交易平台，您不需要任何编码经验。

It includes a full range of trading indicators for you to get creative and a Discord community of 2,500 traders to discuss your ideas with.

它包括一整套供您发挥创意的交易指标，以及一个由 2,500 名交易者组成的 Discord 社区，供您讨论您的想法。

Speaker 1: Composer also has a powerful back tester to see the historical performance of your strategies, and you can then invest with a single click.

演讲者 1：Composer 还具有强大的回溯测试器，可以查看您的策略的历史表现，然后您只需单击一下即可进行投资。

Once you invest, Composer will automatically trade for you based on the logic of your strategy.

一旦您投资，Composer 就会根据您的策略逻辑自动为您进行交易。

With $1 billion in trading volume and over 1 million trades executed, composer already has many big time investors using the platform regularly.

Composer 拥有 10 亿美元的交易量和超过 100 万笔交易，已经拥有许多大型投资者定期使用该平台。

Speaker 1: Head to composer.trade and use the code Lenny for an extra week of free trial on your composer membership.

演讲者 1：前往 Composer.trade 并使用代码 Lenny 为您的 Composer 会员资格额外提供一周的免费试用。

That's composer.trade.

那是composer.trade。

This episode is brought to you by Eppo.

本集由 Eppo 为您带来。

Eppo is a next generation AB testing platform built by Airbnb alums from modern growth teams.

Eppo 是由来自现代增长团队的 Airbnb 校友打造的下一代 AB 测试平台。

Companies like DraftKings, Zapier, click up, Twitch and Cameo rely on Eppo to power their experiments.

DraftKings、Zapier、click up、Twitch 和 Cameo 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。

Wherever you work running experiments is increasingly essential, but there are no commercial tools that integrate with a modern grow team stack.

无论您在哪里工作，运行实验都变得越来越重要，但是没有可以与现代种植团队堆栈集成的商业工具。

This leads to wasted time building internal tools or trying to run your own experiments through a clunky marketing tool.

这会导致浪费时间构建内部工具或尝试通过笨重的营销工具进行自己的实验。

Speaker 1: When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved most about working there was our experimentation platform where I was able to slice and dice data by device types, country, user stage.

演讲者 1：当我在 Airbnb 工作时，我最喜欢在那里工作的事情之一就是我们的实验平台，我可以在其中按设备类型、国家/地区、用户阶段对数据进行切片和切块。

Eppo, does all that and more delivering results quickly, avoiding annoying prolonged analytic cycles and helping you easily get to the root cause of any issue you discover.

Eppo 可以完成所有这些任务，并快速提供结果，避免烦人的长时间分析周期，并帮助您轻松找到所发现问题的根本原因。

Eppo lets you go beyond basic click through metrics and instead use your north star metrics like activation, retention, subscription and payments.

Eppo 可以让您超越基本的点击率指标，而是使用您的北极星指标，例如激活、保留、订阅和付款。

Eppo supports test on the front end, on the backend, email marketing, even machine learning clients.

Eppo 支持前端测试、后端测试、电子邮件营销，甚至机器学习客户端。

Check out Eppo at geteppo.com, that's geteppo.com and 10 x your experiment velocity.

在 geteppo.com 上查看 Eppo，这是 geteppo.com，它是您的实验速度的 10 倍。

Lenny: April, thank you so much for being here.

莱尼：阿普尔，非常感谢你来到这里。

Welcome back to the podcast.

欢迎回到播客。

April Dunford: So great to be back.

阿普丽尔·邓福德：很高兴回来。

We were talking about this earlier, but it feels like it was so long ago when I did the last one.

我们之前讨论过这个，但当我做最后一个时，感觉就像是很久以前的事了。

I was one of the first guests and I feel like, man, you've been running this thing forever.

我是第一批客人之一，我觉得，伙计，你一直在经营这件事。

And that was like a year ago.

那就像一年前一样。

Lenny: It feels like a lifetime, but it was about a year ago.

莱尼：感觉就像是一辈子，但那是大约一年前的事了。

April Dunford: But what you've done with it is amazing, right?

April Dunford：但是你用它所做的事情是令人惊奇的，对吧？

The growth in it, everything else, it's super inspirational.

其中的成长，以及其他一切，都是超级鼓舞人心的。

Lenny: Thanks April.

莱尼：谢谢阿普丽尔。

I appreciate that.

我很欣赏这一点。

April Dunford: You're welcome.

艾普丽尔·邓福德：不客气。

It's true though.

但这是真的。

I think everybody looks at your stuff and goes, "What the heck?

我想每个人都会看着你的东西然后说：“到底是什么？

How does he do it?"

他是怎么做到的？”

Lenny: That's the get rich quick scheme there.

莱尼：这就是那里的快速致富计划。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

But it's work that's extremely fulfilling and we get to chat again and you are a very rare return guest, which makes me very happy.

但这是一件非常有成就感的工作，我们又可以聊天了，你是一位非常难得的回头客，这让我很高兴。

And the reason you're back is you've written an incredible new book, which I have right here if you're on YouTube called Sales Pitch.

你回来的原因是你写了一本令人难以置信的新书，如果你在 YouTube 上的话，我就在这里，这本书叫做《Sales Pitch》。

Lenny: There it is.

莱尼：就是这样。

And it's in your background, too.

它也在你的背景中。

It's like a inception.

这就像一个开始。

The book is called Sales Pitch, How to Craft a Story to Stand Out and Win.

这本书的名字是《销售宣传：如何打造一个故事以脱颖而出并获胜》。

And we're going to be spending our time today digging into all of the lessons and frameworks in the book as much as we can in the hour that we have.

今天我们将在有限的时间内尽可能多地深入研究本书中的所有课程和框架。

And my goal for this conversation is for listeners to leave this podcast with better skills at pitching and selling their product.

我这次对话的目标是让听众在离开这个播客时拥有更好的推销和销售产品的技能。

Which I think every product leader and founder will want to do and get better at.

我认为每个产品领导者和创始人都想做并且做得更好。

How does that sound?

听起来怎么样？

Lenny: Okay, sweet.

莱尼：好的，亲爱的。

I was thinking as a way to get into the conversation, we start with maybe a story or an example of a company that you worked with where you applied the frameworks and lessons they teach in the book.

我在想，作为进入对话的一种方式，我们可能会从一个故事或一个你曾工作过的公司的例子开始，你在其中应用了他们在书中教授的框架和课程。

And then use that as kind of a jumping off point for digging in further.

然后将其作为进一步挖掘的起点。

April Dunford: Yeah, sure.

艾普丽尔·邓福德：是的，当然。

So my background is, I do positioning work.

所以我的背景是，我做定位工作。

And so in the work that I do with clients, generally what we're working on is a shift in the positioning, which is a little bit of a shift in our thinking around, how do we win in the market?

因此，在我与客户一起做的工作中，通常我们正在做的是定位的转变，这就是我们思考的一点转变，我们如何在市场上获胜？

So in order to test that positioning, what we want to do is take the positioning and translate it into a sales pitch and then test it live with prospects.

因此，为了测试该定位，我们要做的就是将定位转化为销售宣传，然后与潜在客户进行现场测试。

April Dunford: And one of the things I noticed right at the beginning of doing this work is that everybody's sales pitch kind of looked the same and they weren't all that great.

April Dunford：我在开始做这项工作时注意到的一件事是，每个人的销售宣传看起来都一样，而且并不是那么好。

And for the most part what was happening in the sales pitch is there was no positioning going on in the sales pitch at all.

在大多数情况下，销售宣传中发生的情况是，销售宣传中根本没有进行任何定位。

The sales pitch was essentially a product exposition, so essentially a glorified product box room.

销售宣传本质上是一个产品博览会，因此本质上是一个美化的产品包厢。

If there was five dropdown menus, we're going to click on all five dropdown menus and show everybody everything just feature, feature, feature, feature, feature.

如果有五个下拉菜单，我们将单击所有五个下拉菜单并向所有人显示所有内容，只是功能、功能、功能、功能、功能。

April Dunford: And so, most of the teams weren't used to doing any kind of pitching in the pitch really.

April Dunford：所以，大多数球队并不习惯在球场上进行任何类型的投球。

It was just the facts Jack, were just going to show you that.

这只是杰克要向你展示的事实。

Some would do this really lightweight thing.

有些人会做这种非常轻量级的事情。

Here's the problem, we're the solution.

问题就在这里，我们就是解决方案。

Now let me walk you through all the dropdown menus, but it is basically the same thing like that.

现在让我带您浏览所有下拉菜单，但基本上都是一样的。

April Dunford: And so what I wanted to do was build a pitch structure that would reflect the positioning.

April Dunford：所以我想做的是建立一个能够反映定位的音调结构。

And so in order to do that, we have to get a little bit into storytelling mode.

因此，为了做到这一点，我们必须进入讲故事的模式。

Not a lot, but at least a little.

不是很多，但至少有一点。

And when we're talking about features, we shouldn't be talking about features.

当我们谈论功能时，我们不应该谈论功能。

We should be talking about the value that the features deliver.

我们应该谈论这些功能所提供的价值。

April Dunford: So let me give you an example and I'll do before and after what this would look like.

April Dunford：让我给你举个例子，我会在之前和之后做这件事。

So I work with these folks, Help Scout, and so they're in the customer service space, so think Zendesk or whatever.

所以我和这些人一起工作，Help Scout，所以他们在客户服务领域，所以想想 Zendesk 或其他什么。

They're in that space.

他们就在那个空间里。

And what's interesting about them is they were built from the ground up to serve digital businesses.

它们的有趣之处在于它们是从头开始为数字业务服务的。

So businesses that don't have a physical store, they don't have sales reps.

因此，没有实体店的企业就没有销售代表。

And so their approach to customer service was different from the outset.

因此，他们的客户服务方式从一开始就不同。

Help Scout said, "Well, you know what?

帮助侦察兵说：“好吧，你知道吗？

Customer service for that kind of business is really important.

对于此类业务来说，客户服务非常重要。

It's the only time you ever get to interact with actual customers." And so the data shows that if you give them a really great interaction in service, it improves loyalty, it improves repeat purchases, and it's actually a growth driver.

这是你与实际客户互动的唯一一次。”因此，数据表明，如果你在服务中为他们提供真正良好的互动，就会提高忠诚度，提高重复购买率，这实际上是一个增长动力。

Now, most folks in other industries see customer service as a cost center.

现在，其他行业的大多数人将客户服务视为成本中心。

April Dunford: So your telephone company for example, wants to get you off the phone as fast as possible.

April Dunford：例如，您的电话公司希望尽快让您挂断电话。

And they want to push you to the self-serve FAQ channels, and they don't care about giving you a good service at all.

他们想把你推到自助常见问题解答频道，他们根本不在乎给你提供良好的服务。

They don't care about any of that.

他们不关心这些。

And so they're all about driving the cost down.

所以他们都是为了降低成本。

So if we look at Help Scout in their positioning, the alternatives to Help Scout are a handful of things.

因此，如果我们看看 Help Scout 的定位，就会发现 Help Scout 的替代方案有很多。

Most folks start using a shared inbox and it's really easy to use and the reps love it.

大多数人开始使用共享收件箱，它非常易于使用，而且销售代表也很喜欢它。

It's easy to use.

它很容易使用。

The problem is, is you start growing and then you want customer service features.

问题是，当您开始成长时，您需要客户服务功能。

You want to be able to do assignments and prioritization and things like that.

你希望能够完成任务、确定优先级以及类似的事情。

So then these customers end up upgrading to help desk software and now they're in this whole different world.

因此，这些客户最终升级到帮助台软件，现在他们处于一个完全不同的世界。

April Dunford: So the first thing is really hard to use.

April Dunford：所以第一个东西真的很难用。

So we're not in shared inbox territory anymore.

所以我们不再处于共享收件箱领域。

And the second thing is that there's this attitude of we're trying to push folks to low cost channels.

第二件事是我们试图将人们推向低成本渠道的态度。

We don't really care about them.

我们并不真正关心他们。

We're going to assign you a ticket number.

我们将为您分配一个票号。

You're not a person anymore.

你已经不是一个人了。

All this stuff.

所有这些东西。

So that's the situation.

情况就是这样。

So Help Scout, if they did a typical pitch the way I see most SaaS companies pitch, they would just expose the features.

所以 Help Scout，如果他们按照我看到的大多数 SaaS 公司的推销方式进行典型的推销，他们只会公开功能。

Right?

正确的？

So the pitch would look like this.

所以球场看起来就像这样。

Digital business comes in and they say, "Hi, Help Scout, let me show you how to log in, let me show you all the features.

数字业务出现后，他们说：“嗨，Help Scout，让我向您展示如何登录，让我向您展示所有功能。

Look, there's a shared inbox thing there that's really great.

看，那里有一个共享收件箱，非常棒。

Oh, look, we can do assignments and prioritization and we can do this other thing and we can do this other thing and la, la la." And I keep going until the time runs out and I don't have any more features to talk about.

哦，看，我们可以做任务和优先级，我们可以做其他事情，我们可以做其他事情，啦啦啦。”我会一直继续下去，直到时间耗尽，并且我没有更多的功能可谈论。

April Dunford: The problem with that pitch is the customer's sitting there going, "I don't know, man, that sounds a little bit like my shared inbox, but it also sounds like help desk software.

April Dunford：这个推销的问题是客户坐在那里说，“我不知道，伙计，这听起来有点像我的共享收件箱，但它也听起来像帮助台软件。

Is it different than help desk software?

它与帮助台软件有什么不同吗？

I'm not so sure.

我不太确定。

And there's overlap in the features there." And so it doesn't really answer the question, why pick us over the other guys?

而且那里的功能有重叠。”所以它并没有真正回答这个问题，为什么选择我们而不是其他人？

April Dunford: And so a different style of pitch would be one, we would do a little bit of setup to give everybody an idea about how we fit amongst all the other solutions and what our point of view is in the market.

April Dunford：因此，一种不同的宣传风格是一种，我们会做一些设置，让每个人都了解我们如何适应所有其他解决方案以及我们在市场上的观点。

And then when we get to exploring the features, we would do that within the context of the differentiated value.

然后，当我们开始探索这些功能时，我们会在差异化价值的背景下进行。

So here's how that pitch would look like.

这就是这个音调的样子。

Customer comes in and Help Scout says, "Hey, digital business, we work with a lot of companies like you, and I'm going to show you the product.

客户进来后，Help Scout 说：“嘿，数字业务，我们与很多像您这样的公司合作，我将向您展示产品。

But before we get there, one of the things we think is interesting is that digital businesses look at customer service differently.

但在我们到达那里之前，我们认为有趣的事情之一是数字企业以不同的方式看待客户服务。

They look at it as a growth driver rather than a cost center.

他们将其视为增长动力而不是成本中心。

And so most of the folks we work with see delivering a really amazing experience as a key part of customer service.

因此，与我们合作的大多数人都将提供真正令人惊叹的体验视为客户服务的关键部分。

Would you agree with that?"

你同意吗？”

April Dunford: Yeah, we would.

阿普丽尔·邓福德：是的，我们会的。

They have a little conversation and then they say, "Great.

他们聊了一会儿，然后说：“太好了。

We you have choices here.

我们这里你有选择。

So most of the folks we work with start with a shared inbox, and that's great because it's really easy, really easy to use all that stuff.

因此，与我们合作的大多数人都是从共享收件箱开始的，这很好，因为使用所有这些东西非常非常容易。

The problem is if you're growing and you probably are, then you're going to outgrow that because you're going to need prioritizations assignments, help desk stuff.

问题是，如果你正在成长（而且很可能正在成长），那么你就会超越成长，因为你将需要优先分配任务、帮助台的东西。

April Dunford: And so then your option is to go to help desk software.

April Dunford：那么您的选择是使用帮助台软件。

And so help desk software is great, does all the things.

所以帮助台软件很棒，可以做所有的事情。

The problem is that it was not designed for businesses like you.

问题是它不是为像您这样的企业设计的。

It was designed for businesses that want to take the cost out of customer service.

它是为想要降低客户服务成本的企业而设计的。

So it's going to do some things that are weird.

所以它会做一些奇怪的事情。

It's going assign your customers a ticket number and it's going to try to drive them to low cost channels.

它将为您的客户分配一个票号，并尝试将他们推向低成本渠道。

So can we agree that in a perfect world for digital business like yours, we'd want something as easy to use as a help desk, but had all the bells and whistles so we wouldn't have to migrate to something else.

因此，我们是否可以同意，在像您这样的数字业务的完美世界中，我们想要像帮助台一样易于使用的东西，但又拥有所有的附加功能，这样我们就不必迁移到其他东西。

And on top of that was built from the ground up to deliver amazing customer service.

最重要的是，我们从头开始构建，以提供出色的客户服务。

Do we agree we want that?"

我们同意我们想要这样吗？”

April Dunford: Now, at that point, the customer is either with you or you're not.

April Dunford：现在，到那时，客户要么在你身边，要么你不在。

But if they are, then we switch to the actual demo part.

但如果是的话，我们就会转向实际的演示部分。

If we do a demo and then we say, "Great, we've got those three things.

如果我们做了一个演示，然后我们说：“太棒了，我们已经有了这三件事。

Let me show you how that works.

让我向您展示它是如何工作的。

So one as easy to use an inbox.

因此，收件箱的使用非常简单。

Look, here's the inbox.

看，这是收件箱。

It's easy to use.

它很容易使用。

Looks just like an inbox.

看起来就像一个收件箱。

It's amazing.

太棒了。

Two, features, so you never have to outgrow it.

第二，功能，这样你就永远不必超越它。

Look, here's how we do prioritizations assignments, whatever.

看，这就是我们如何进行优先级分配的方法。

We can do all the stuff you need as you grow, and you're never going to have to switch platforms.

随着您的成长，我们可以做您需要的所有事情，而且您永远不需要切换平台。

And then last one, deliver an amazing experience.

最后一个，提供令人惊叹的体验。

Look, the customer gets to choose which channel that they interact with you with.

看，客户可以选择与您互动的渠道。

And look, they get to stay Dave and not ticket number 1479."

看，他们留下的是戴夫，而不是 1479 号票。”

April Dunford: That sort of thing.

艾普丽尔·邓福德：就是这样的事情。

So that's how the pitch looks in the after.

这就是球场之后的样子。

But that's a really different pitch.

但这是一个非常不同的音调。

That pitch is designed to answer the question, "Why pick us over the other folks?" And so as you might imagine, it is a lot more effective at actually getting clients to get their head around, what is this thing?

该推介旨在回答以下问题：“为什么选择我们而不是其他人？”正如您可能想象的那样，它实际上可以更有效地让客户理解，这是什么东西？

Why is it different?

为什么不一样呢？

Why should I pick you?

我为什么要选你？

And it just works way better in a sales situation.

而且它在销售情况下效果更好。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

So just to maybe summarize the framework 'cause you went through each of these pieces, and I think it might be helpful to give people the kind of steps.

因此，也许可以总结一下框架，因为您已经完成了每个部分，我认为为人们提供此类步骤可能会有所帮助。

And I have them here, but maybe it might be better for you to kind work through.

我这里有它们，但也许你最好先解决一下。

April Dunford: So you can think of it is...

阿普丽尔·邓福德：所以你可以认为它是......

So first of all, the pitch structure has two big pieces.

首先，音高结构有两大块。

So the first is the setup.

所以首先是设置。

The setup piece is not about us, it's about the market, our point of view on the market.

设置部分与我们无关，而是与市场有关，是我们对市场的看法。

The second bit is all about our differentiated value.

第二点是关于我们的差异化价值。

So why pick us over the other guys?

那么为什么选择我们而不是其他人呢？

So those pieces aren't equal.

所以这些部分并不相等。

In a normal sales pitch situation, we don't want to spend all day in the setup part.

在正常的推销情况下，我们不想花一整天的时间在设置部分。

We want to get to the meat, which is our differentiated value, but we can't skip that bit.

我们想要得到肉，这是我们的差异化价值，但我们不能跳过这一点。

So if I've got a half hour call or a 45-minute call, maybe I spend a few minutes on this upfront, this upfront stuff is really important though.

因此，如果我接到一个半小时或 45 分钟的电话，也许我会提前花几分钟，但这些预先的事情确实很重要。

April Dunford: And we could break the upfront into three pieces.

艾普丽尔·邓福德：我们可以将前期费用分成三部分。

So it starts with our insight into the market.

所以这要从我们对市场的洞察开始。

So you can think of this as our point of view on the market or kind of like the problem inside the problem, in some ways.

因此，您可以将其视为我们对市场的观点，或者在某些方面类似于问题中的问题。

So in Help Scout's case, the insight is, " Hey, customer service is just different for digital businesses, and this is really a growth driver, not a cost center.

因此，在 Help Scout 的案例中，我们的见解是，“嘿，客户服务对于数字企业来说是不同的，这确实是增长动力，而不是成本中心。

So we need to think about customer service in a different way." That's their insight.

因此，我们需要以不同的方式考虑客户服务。”这就是他们的洞察力。

So we start with that.

所以我们就从这个开始。

April Dunford: The second piece is pluses and minuses of alternative solutions.

April Dunford：第二部分是替代解决方案的优缺点。

What we want to do is paint a picture of the entire market and talk about what's good and bad of the other ways of approaching the job.

我们想要做的是描绘整个市场的图景，并讨论其他处理工作的方式的优点和缺点。

And then out of that conversation, we have a conclusion, which is what I call perfect world.

然后从这次谈话中，我们得到了一个结论，这就是我所说的完美世界。

But just kind of like can we agree that if we really wanted to solve this problem and knowing what works and doesn't work in the alternate solutions, can we agree really good solutions should tick these boxes?

但是，就像我们是否可以同意，如果我们真的想解决这个问题，并且知道替代解决方案中哪些有效，哪些无效，我们是否可以同意真正好的解决方案应该勾选这些框？

This is getting the customer aligned with your worldview.

这会让客户与你的世界观保持一致。

April Dunford: If they're aligned, then we switch to the follow through.

April Dunford：如果他们一致，那么我们就会转向跟进。

The follow through has a handful of steps, but the main step is this differentiated value step.

跟进有几个步骤，但主要步骤是这个差异化价值步骤。

So usually what we'd start with is an introduction.

所以通常我们会从介绍开始。

"Hey, we're Help Scout.

“嘿，我们是帮助侦察兵。

We do customer service stuff specifically for digital businesses." And then we would move on to, "Here's the value we deliver.

我们专门为数字企业提供客户服务。”然后我们会继续说，“这就是我们提供的价值。

Here's how we do it.

我们是这样做的。

Here's the value we deliver.

这就是我们提供的价值。

Here's how we do it.

我们是这样做的。

Here's the value we deliver.

这就是我们提供的价值。

Here's how we do it."

我们是这样做的。”

April Dunford: We generally end the sales pitch with a couple of little steps.

阿普丽尔·邓福德：我们通常会通过几个小步骤来结束推销活动。

So one is after we talk about the value, generally there's a step for proof, which is how can we prove that we do what we say we could do.

所以一是我们讲了价值之后，一般都有一个证明的步骤，就是我们如何证明我们做到了我们说我们能做到的。

Which is often a customer case study or it might be independent third party verification on stuff.

这通常是客户案例研究，也可能是独立的第三方对东西的验证。

But usually there's a proof step.

但通常会有一个证明步骤。

There's an optional step after that, which is handling objections that haven't come up during the call.

之后还有一个可选步骤，即处理通话期间未提出的异议。

So sometimes we'll have a silent objection, "Yeah, that sounds really good, but it sounds really hard to adopt." Or, "Yeah, that sounds really good, but it's probably pretty expensive." Or, "Yeah, that's okay, but it probably doesn't meet our needs for security or whatever."

所以有时我们会默默地反对，“是的，这听起来确实不错，但听起来真的很难采用。”或者，“是的，这听起来确实不错，但可能相当昂贵。”或者，“是的，没关系，但它可能无法满足我们对安全或其他方面的需求。”

April Dunford: And so we handle that at the end in this special objection step.

April Dunford：所以我们在最后这个特殊异议步骤中处理这个问题。

And then we end the pitch with what I call the ask, which is whatever we want the customer to do next.

然后我们以我所说的询问结束推销，这就是我们希望客户下一步做的事情。

So it could be just asking for the sale or it could be, "Hey, we want to do a proof of concept.

所以它可能只是要求出售，也可能是，“嘿，我们想做一个概念验证。

Who do we need to talk to about that?" Or, "Hey, we're going to do a project.

我们需要和谁谈谈这件事？”或者，“嘿，我们要做一个项目。

Who needs to be involved in defining the project?" Whatever the next step is in your sales process.

谁需要参与定义该项目？”无论您的销售流程的下一步是什么。

That's how we end is with dask.

这就是我们以 dask 结束的方式。

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

I wanted to actually talk about objections.

我实际上想谈谈反对意见。

'Cause I imagine going through this, companies often don't agree with what you're saying, and I wonder how you handle that.

因为我想象在经历这个过程时，公司通常不同意你所说的，我想知道你如何处理这个问题。

So you're going in this, do you agree?

所以你要参加这个，你同意吗？

And yeah, the silent objection is really interesting.

是的，无声的反对真的很有趣。

I don't even think about that, where they're just like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, we agree." But they don't really agree.

我什至没有想到这一点，他们只是说，“是的，是的，是的，我们同意。”但他们并不真正同意。

How would you suggest people handle them being like, "No, I don't actually see the world that way." Or the silent objection, which I guess is something you save for the end.

你会建议人们如何处理这些问题，就像“不，我实际上并不那样看世界。”或者是无声的反对，我想这是你留到最后的东西。

April Dunford: Typically when we're starting with insight, our insight into the market, if we're doing this well, the insight is generally not all that controversial.

April Dunford：通常，当我们从洞察力开始时，我们对市场的洞察力，如果我们做得很好，那么这种洞察力通常不会那么有争议。

So you could think of it this way.

所以你可以这样想。

So it's kind of the reason you built what you built.

所以这就是你建造你所建造的东西的原因。

So most founders, when you talk to them, they didn't just come up with the idea out of nowhere.

因此，当你与大多数创始人交谈时，你会发现他们并不是凭空想出这个想法的。

They woke up in the morning and said, "You know what sucks about email, this thing sucks about email.

他们早上醒来说：“你知道电子邮件有什么糟糕之处，这件事很糟糕。

And so I'm going to build this different kind of email that solves that problem." Or in the case of Help Scout, it's like, do you know what sucks about customer service?

因此，我将构建这种不同类型的电子邮件来解决这个问题。”或者以 Help Scout 为例，你知道客户服务的糟糕之处是什么吗？

It just wasn't built for these kinds of businesses.

它并不是为此类业务而构建的。

April Dunford: And so if you've got a point of view on the world and you're talking to a customer that just fundamentally doesn't agree with that...

April Dunford：所以，如果你对世界有自己的观点，而你正在与一位根本不同意这种观点的客户交谈......

In the case of a Help Scout, they come in and they say, "No, actually it's a cost center for us.

就帮助侦察兵而言，他们进来后说：“不，实际上这是我们的成本中心。

We're just trying to get the cost down." They should disqualify that deal because they can't serve that customer better than Zendesk does.

我们只是想降低成本。”他们应该取消该交易的资格，因为他们无法比 Zendesk 更好地为该客户提供服务。

Zendesk is going to win that deal.

Zendesk 将赢得这笔交易。

But if you've done this properly, your insight should resonate for the target account that you're trying to go after.

但如果你做得正确，你的洞察力应该会引起你想要追求的目标客户的共鸣。

Now, that doesn't mean there aren't going to be other objections, and usually there's all kinds of other objections.

现在，这并不意味着不会有其他反对意见，而且通常还会有各种各样的其他反对意见。

But the objections are more on a level of, if I can get you hooked at the beginning in this setup, then we go to the value, which is just proving I can do what we already agreed we wanted to get done.

但反对意见更多地是在一个层面上，如果我能让你一开始就对这个设置着迷，那么我们就会转向价值，这只是证明我可以做我们已经同意我们想要完成的事情。

Then the objections tend to be more like operational stuff.

那么反对意见往往更像是操作性的东西。

"Yeah, this sounds good, but I don't know if we can forward it." Or "This sounds good, but boy, we're going to have to migrate off the old thing or whatever."

“是的，这听起来不错，但我不知道我们是否可以转发它。”或者“这听起来不错，但是天哪，我们将不得不迁移旧的东西或其他东西。”

April Dunford: So mentally they're kind of sold already, but they're worried about, "Well, what's IT going to say?

April Dunford：从心理上来说，他们已经被卖掉了，但他们担心，“那么，IT 会说什么？

And can I actually get budget about this?" And in B2B, we've got this network of people that we've got to go get agreement from to move forward on this thing.

我真的可以获得这方面的预算吗？”在 B2B 领域，我们拥有这样的人员网络，我们必须获得他们的同意才能推进这件事。

And so often there's objections around that.

对此经常存在反对意见。

The beginning of the sales pitch thing...

推销活动的开始...

One more thing on that is that part of what we're doing in that setup is what salespeople would call discovery.

还有一件事是，我们在该设置中所做的部分工作就是销售人员所说的发现。

And so that setup part should not be me talking at you.

所以设置部分不应该是我在对你说话。

It should be a conversation between me and the client saying, "Do you agree with this?

这应该是我和客户之间的对话：“你同意这个吗？

Is this what you're seeing?

这就是你所看到的吗？

Did you start with a shared inbox?

您是从共享收件箱开始的吗？

What are you doing right now?

你现在在做什么？

Did you ever consider using help desk software?

您是否考虑过使用帮助台软件？

Why yes, why no?

为什么是，为什么不是？

Do you have any constraints on what you're looking at?

您所看到的内容有任何限制吗？

What have you tried before?

你之前尝试过什么？

What are you looking at trying right now?"

你现在想尝试什么？”

April Dunford: This is part of the discovery that we do in a first substantive sales call that your sales reps would know how to do this.

April Dunford：这是我们在第一次实质性销售拜访中所做的发现的一部分，即您的销售代表知道如何做到这一点。

Typically, one of the things we don't have in the pitch decks that I see in SaaS companies is there's no good place to do this discovery.

通常，我在 SaaS 公司的推介材料中看到的一件事是没有好的地方来进行这一发现。

So it kind of happens outside of the structure of the pitch.

所以这有点发生在球场结构之外。

In this pitch structure, there's a definite spot for discovery.

在这个音调结构中，有一个明确的发现点。

So by the time we get to the end of the setup, we should either be aligned like, "Yep, this looks like a good prospect for us.

因此，当我们完成设置时，我们应该保持一致，“是的，这对我们来说看起来是一个很好的前景。

Yep, we can do something.

是的，我们可以做点什么。

Yep, they got a problem we can solve.

是的，他们有一个我们可以解决的问题。

This all looks good." Or we kind of jointly come to the conclusion, "Hey, this just...

这一切看起来都不错。”或者我们共同得出结论：“嘿，这只是......

Our stuff just ain't for you, man." And that's it.

我们的东西不适合你，伙计。”就是这样。

Lenny: I mentioned a lot of this comes from doing this enough times.

莱尼：我提到很多这都是因为做了足够多次的事情。

You get to understand where people generally agree, this is a problem.

你会明白人们普遍认为这是一个问题。

We all know this is our problem.

我们都知道这是我们的问题。

And it's unlikely that you're going to have to throw everything out because someone just decides, "No, this isn't for us."

而且你不太可能因为有人决定“不，这不适合我们”而不得不扔掉所有东西。

Lenny: I think one of the biggest shift maybe from this framework is that you go into a teaching mindset.

莱尼：我认为这个框架最大的转变之一可能是你进入了一种教学心态。

It's not just like, "Here's our product, it's going to solve your problem." It's more, "Here's what's happening broadly.

这不仅仅是“这是我们的产品，它将解决您的问题”。更重要的是，“这就是广泛发生的事情。

Maybe you don't have the time to do the research we've done.

也许您没有时间进行我们所做的研究。

Here's what we found." And then that builds trust, I think in you as a company and as a leader, a salesperson.

这就是我们的发现。”然后这会建立信任，我认为你作为一家公司、一个领导者、一个销售人员。

And then they're like, "Okay, see, they see the world the way we do." Or, "I've just realized something new.

然后他们会说，“好吧，看，他们看世界的方式和我们一样。”或者，“我刚刚意识到一些新东西。

I never thought of it that way." And then, "Okay, cool.

我从来没有这样想过。”然后，“好吧，酷。

How do they think about the solution to this?"

他们如何考虑解决这个问题的办法？”

April Dunford: Right.

阿普丽尔·邓福德：对。

One of the key things to think about in all of this stuff that I think we don't think about enough as software vendors is that customers will come to us and they've done their homework.

在所有这些事情中需要考虑的关键问题之一是，我认为我们作为软件供应商考虑得不够充分，那就是客户会来找我们，并且他们已经做好了功课。

They've Googled around and they've looked at stuff, but that doesn't mean they have perfect understanding of the market.

他们在谷歌上到处搜索，也研究过一些东西，但这并不意味着他们对市场有完美的了解。

In fact, it's usually far from it.

事实上，通常情况远非如此。

If we think about it, most of the folks in B2B software, most of the time, your buyer has never purchased software like yours before.

如果我们想一想，大多数从事 B2B 软件的人，大多数时候，您的买家以前从未购买过像您这样的软件。

This is the first time they've done it.

这是他们第一次这样做。

And their bosses come to them and said, "Hey, figure this out.

他们的老板来找他们说：“嘿，想办法解决这个问题。

Go find us a CRM and look at all the CRMs and figure it out."

给我们找一个 CRM，查看所有 CRM 并找出答案。”

April Dunford: And the buyers looking at it going, "Geez, I don't know, man.

艾普丽尔·邓福德：买家看着它会说，“天哪，我不知道，伙计。

There's a lot of CRMs out there, and I'm looking at all the things.

市面上有很多 CRM，我正在研究所有的东西。

I'm on G2 Crowd and there's 24 CRMs in the top right corner.

我在 G2 Crowd 上，右上角有 24 个 CRM。

And I'm looking at Gardner Group and I'm looking at this thing and I'm actually doing my research, but I'm overwhelmed.

我正在研究加德纳集团，我正在研究这个东西，我实际上正在做我的研究，但我不知所措。

What I don't have is a clear picture of the market.

我缺乏的是对市场的清晰了解。

What are the different approaches to this problem?

解决这个问题有哪些不同的方法？

Forget about products.

忘记产品。

What are the approaches to the problem?

解决问题的方法有哪些？

Where do the products fit in those approaches?

这些产品在哪些方面适合这些方法？

What's a good solution for me look like?

对我来说好的解决方案是什么样的？

What should be my purchase criteria?" That's really hard for buyers to figure out.

我的购买标准应该是什么？”这对买家来说确实很难弄清楚。

April Dunford: And in general, in a sales process, we're not doing anything to help the buyer figure that out, even though we know it.

April Dunford：一般来说，在销售过程中，我们不会做任何事情来帮助买家弄清楚这一点，尽管我们知道这一点。

We eat, sleep and breathe this market.

我们在这个市场上吃饭、睡觉、呼吸。

We spend all day looking at competitors and thinking about this stuff and whatever.

我们整天都在观察竞争对手并思考这些东西等等。

But we've got this idea, "Well, we shouldn't do this because first of all, we can't talk about the other guys that we'd be seen as bashing our competition, and that's bad." The other thing is, even if we did give our opinion, nobody would trust us because we're biased.

但我们有这样的想法，“好吧，我们不应该这样做，因为首先，我们不能谈论其他人，因为我们会被视为攻击我们的竞争对手，这很糟糕。”另一件事是，即使我们确实发表了意见，也没有人会相信我们，因为我们有偏见。

But if you look at the research on this stuff, the research doesn't support that.

但如果你看看这方面的研究，就会发现研究并不支持这一点。

The research actually says what B2B software buyers want in a sales interaction is perspectives on the market and help weighing their options.

该研究实际上表明，B2B 软件买家在销售互动中想要的是对市场的看法，并帮助权衡他们的选择。

And we don't do that.

我们不这样做。

We're just like, "Here's our stuff.

我们就像，“这是我们的东西。

You figure it out, it's up to you.

你弄清楚了，这取决于你。

You figure it out."

你自己想办法吧。”

April Dunford: And so as a result, what we get are these buyers come in, they're overwhelmed with all this information.

April Dunford：结果，我们得到的是这些买家进来，他们对所有这些信息感到不知所措。

They come in and they sit in our sales process, and we overwhelm them even more with more features and more information.

他们进来并参与我们的销售流程，我们用更多的功能和更多的信息压倒他们。

And what they're really worried about is, "What if I make a bad choice here?

他们真正担心的是，“如果我在这里做出了错误的选择怎么办？

I've never done this before and I'm going to have to recommend to my boss.

我以前从未这样做过，我必须向我的老板推荐。

And if I make the wrong suggestion to my boss, maybe my boss thinks I'm stupid.

如果我向老板提出了错误的建议，也许老板会认为我很愚蠢。

Or maybe I buy something and the whole department hates me because awful to use.

或者也许我买了一些东西，整个部门都讨厌我，因为它很难用。

Or maybe I pick something and it's just bad software and then bad things happen for the business, maybe I get fired."

或者也许我选择了一些东西，但它只是糟糕的软件，然后业务发生了不好的事情，也许我被解雇了。”

April Dunford: And so the data on this shows that for B2B, 40 to 60% of B2B purchase processes end in no decision.

April Dunford：这方面的数据表明，对于 B2B 来说，40% 到 60% 的 B2B 购买流程最终没有做出决定。

And then when you look at, if you scratch on that data, the majority of those aren't saying, "Well, I'm not making a decision to buy something new because the old thing we were doing is better." That's not true at all.

然后当你看一下这些数据时，大多数人都不会说：“好吧，我不会决定购买新东西，因为我们所做的旧东西更好。”这根本不是真的。

In fact, the majority of the...

事实上，大多数...

April Dunford: The old thing we were doing is better, that's not true at all.

April Dunford：我们以前做的事情更好，但事实并非如此。

In fact, the majority of those is they couldn't figure out how to make a choice confidently.

事实上，其中大多数是他们不知道如何自信地做出选择。

So what they did was they just went to their boss and said, "You know what?

所以他们所做的就是去找老板说：“你知道吗？

Now's not a good time.

现在不是好时机。

Let's not do it now.

我们现在不这样做。

Let's do it next year.

我们明年再做吧。

Let's just delay it," because that is the safe risk-free thing for that person who's on the hook to make the decision to do.

让我们推迟一下吧”，因为对于那些需要做出决定的人来说，这是安全无风险的事情。

Lenny: I think this is one of the most interesting insights that you share in your book and you also share this in the newsletter post about how buying software you could argue is harder than selling it because people will have learned there's skills and training for selling, but buying is, as you described, extremely stressful.

莱尼：我认为这是您在书中分享的最有趣的见解之一，您也在时事通讯中分享了这一点，您认为购买软件比销售软件更难，因为人们会学到销售的技能和培训，但正如您所描述的，购买是非常有压力的。

Basically your job's on the line if you make a mistake.

基本上，如果你犯了错误，你的工作就会受到威胁。

Is there anything more you can share along those lines just to help reinforce that buying software is extremely hard and stressful and people don't understand that?

您是否还可以分享一些其他内容，以帮助强调购买软件非常困难且压力很大，而且人们不理解这一点？

April Dunford: Once you get into that mindset, I think then you look at the situation a lot different.

艾普里尔·邓福德：一旦你进入这种心态，我想你对情况的看法就会有很大不同。

I think we've seen the statistics on this that says the buyer is 80% of the way through their buying journey by the time they talk to your sales rep.

我想我们已经看到了这方面的统计数据，表明买家在与销售代表交谈时已经完成了 80% 的购买旅程。

Yeah, maybe, but they might be 80% of the way to saying, "Nope, I'm not buying nothing." And in fact that's true 60% of the time.

是的，也许吧，但 80% 的人可能会说：“不，我什么也不买。”事实上，60% 的情况下都是如此。

And so how do we combat that?

那么我们该如何应对呢？

The way we combat that is not just talking about ourselves, it's actually about trying to be helpful to that person in this very stressful situation that is trying to figure out how do I make a really good decision.

我们应对这种情况的方式不仅仅是谈论我们自己，实际上是在这种压力很大的情况下试图帮助那个人，让他们想知道如何做出一个真正好的决定。

April Dunford: So what we should be doing is giving them a way to think about the whole market and say, in the case of Help Scout, "Look, there's shared inbox and then there's help desk software and then there's us.

April Dunford：所以我们应该做的是给他们一种思考整个市场的方式，并以 Help Scout 为例，说：“看，有共享收件箱，然后有帮助台软件，然后就是我们。

And I don't care who the vendor is, I'm going to put them in one of those buckets." And so you can just think of it that way.

我不在乎供应商是谁，我会把它们放进其中一个桶里。”所以你可以这样想。

So you don't need to know every single feature, every single thing.

因此，您不需要了解每一个功能、每件事。

I'm giving you a bigger picture of the whole market and helping you feel good.

我为您提供了整个市场的更广阔的前景，并帮助您感觉良好。

Well, if you choose this or you choose that, now you know why.

好吧，如果你选择这个或选择那个，现在你知道为什么了。

Lenny: I think what's interesting about this is a lot of startups fail because they can't convince anyone to switch from the status quo.

莱尼：我认为有趣的是，很多初创公司都失败了，因为他们无法说服任何人改变现状。

And I think people always think of that as the current product is good enough and that's why they're losing, but I think this adds an additional wrinkle of it's also the person buying it is just like, "I don't want to add the stress to even decide and make the choice and put my butt on the line to switch." And I never thought of it that way.

我认为人们总是认为当前的产品已经足够好，这就是他们失败的原因，但我认为这增加了一个额外的问题，购买它的人就像，“我不想增加压力，甚至决定和做出选择，并把我的屁股放在线路上切换。”我从来没有这样想过。

April Dunford: I think that hurdle is a lot more than you think.

艾普里尔·邓福德：我认为这个障碍比你想象的要多得多。

So we obviously have to compete with status quo, we can't ignore status quo, because sometimes status quo just is good enough and so we can't ignore that.

因此，我们显然必须与现状竞争，我们不能忽视现状，因为有时现状已经足够好了，所以我们不能忽视这一点。

We still lose deals to status quo, but we lose an awful lot of deals to just plain customer indecision, customers being more afraid of screwing up than missing out.

我们仍然会因现状而失去交易，但我们失去大量交易只是因为客户的犹豫不决，客户更害怕搞砸而不是错过。

Lenny: So to try to overcome that, to drill into the things you find most powerful, one is help the customer understand the bigger picture and why essentially they're falling behind, why maybe competition is going to have an advantage because they're thinking in a different way.

莱尼：因此，为了克服这个问题，深入研究你发现最强大的东西，一个是帮助客户了解更大的前景，以及为什么他们本质上落后了，为什么竞争可能会拥有优势，因为他们以不同的方式思考。

April Dunford: Well, I'll throw something out about that.

艾普丽尔·邓福德：好吧，我会对此发表一些看法。

April Dunford: And I've heard people talk about this a lot that one of the things we could do in this situation when a customer is feeling this indecision is to lean into this FOMO and say, "Look, you're missing out.

April Dunford：我听人们经常谈论这个问题，当客户感到犹豫不决时，我们可以做的事情之一就是依靠这种 FOMO 并说：“看，你错过了。

The competitors are all doing it and you're not doing it." And so this is an interesting question.

竞争对手都在这么做，而你却没有这么做。”这是一个有趣的问题。

And so I was super excited, Matt Dixon wrote this book called The JOLT Effect, and in that they studied two and a half million sales calls, they recorded on Gong and they studied it with AI, and then they looked at what happened after the sales call, so were these successful or not successful, did a deal happen or whatever.

所以我非常兴奋，马特·迪克森（Matt Dixon）写了这本书，名为《JOLT Effect》，他们研究了两百五十万次销售电话，他们在Gong上录音，并用人工智能进行研究，然后他们观察销售电话后发生了什么，这些电话是成功还是不成功，是否发生了交易或其他什么。

It's pretty rare that we get a chance to dig into some data like this.

我们很少有机会深入研究这样的数据。

April Dunford: And so what his data showed is if a customer is indecisive, throwing FOMO into the mix makes it worse.

April Dunford：他的数据显示，如果客户优柔寡断，将 FOMO 因素纳入其中会使情况变得更糟。

So they're less likely to close the deal if you throw that in.

因此，如果你把它放进去，他们完成交易的可能性就较小。

And the idea is that they're already stressed out and you're just putting more stress on them by pressuring them, by saying, "Oh, this is happening, bad things are going to..." You're like, "Bad things will happen if I do something, bad things happen if I don't do something, what do I do?"

这个想法是，他们已经压力很大，而你只是通过向他们施加压力来给他们施加更大的压力，通过说，“哦，这正在发生，坏事将会......”你会想，“如果我做某事，坏事就会发生，如果我不做某事，坏事就会发生，我该怎么办？”

Lenny: They just put their head in the sand, right?

莱尼：他们只是把头埋在沙子里，对吧？

They're just like, "Ah, forget it."?

他们只是说，“啊，算了。”？

April Dunford: So they're just like, "Forget it, I'm doing nothing.

艾普丽尔·邓福德：所以他们就像是，“算了，我什么也没做。

Now I'm totally paralyzed." And so there's an assumption that companies are very motivated by this FOMO thing, but I think that that is not always true, and if the customer is actually indecisive, throwing in this FOMO thing isn't going to do it.

现在我完全瘫痪了。”因此，有一种假设认为，公司对这种 FOMO 事情非常积极，但我认为这并不总是正确的，如果客户实际上犹豫不决，那么投入这种 FOMO 事情是行不通的。

So what does work in that situation is, one, giving them the tools to make the decision.

因此，在这种情况下，有效的方法是，第一，为他们提供做出决定的工具。

So that includes paint the picture of the market, teaching them how to buy essentially.

这包括描绘市场图景，教他们如何本质上购买。

So teaching them, look, for customers like you, you just have to worry about these three, four things, and all this other stuff, it doesn't apply to you.

所以教他们，看，对于像你这样的客户，你只需要担心这三、四件事，以及所有其他的事情，它不适用于你。

That applies to bigger companies, that applies to whatever, so this idea of teaching a customer how to buy is one way to take that stress down.

这适用于大公司，适用于任何事物，因此教客户如何购买的想法是减轻压力的一种方法。

April Dunford: And then there's a whole bunch of other techniques you can use.

April Dunford：还有一大堆其他技术可以使用。

So one is if it's a really big deal, we can split it into smaller pieces, we can do things like offer you a money back guarantee, we can do things like sometimes we have services and support that are going to help you if things go bad and this is how we're going to make sure.

因此，如果这确实是一件大事，我们可以将其分成较小的部分，我们可以做一些事情，例如为您提供退款保证，我们可以做一些事情，例如有时我们会提供服务和支持，以便在情况恶化时为您提供帮助，这就是我们要确保的方式。

So this idea of being able to take risk off the table is a really serious one if we've got a customer that is actually paralyzed because of this indecision thing.

因此，如果我们的客户因为这种优柔寡断的事情而实际上陷入瘫痪，那么能够消除风险的想法就非常严肃了。

Lenny: That makes a lot of sense, basically it's like how do we help the buyer cover their ass if they made a mistake, because what you're saying is that's the main reason they're not buying your product.

莱尼：这很有道理，基本上就像如果买家犯了错误，我们如何帮助他们掩盖错误，因为你所说的是这是他们不购买你的产品的主要原因。

April Dunford: And this FOMO thing is just not going to do it.

艾普丽尔·邓福德：这种“害怕错过”的事情是行不通的。

Lenny: That's so interesting.

莱尼：这太有趣了。

So I really like this framework.

所以我真的很喜欢这个框架。

I wrote this down, teaching them how to buy, that is a really simple way of just thinking about this whole process.

我把这个写下来，教他们如何购买，这是一个非常简单的方法，只需思考整个过程即可。

April Dunford: Well, it's funny, I was having this conversation with Bob Moesta, he did Jobs To Be Done.

阿普丽尔·邓福德：嗯，这很有趣，我正在与鲍勃·莫埃斯塔进行对话，他做了《待完成的工作》。

April Dunford: So he's just the best.

艾普丽尔·邓福德：所以他是最好的。

And so one of the things I think of is normally when we come at this we're like, "Well, how can we convince the customer that we do the job that they need to have done?" And obviously we need to do that, but there is this secondary job that the champion of the deal is, and that's how do I make a decision without getting fired?

因此，我想到的一件事通常是，当我们遇到这个问题时，我们会想，“那么，我们如何才能让客户相信我们做了他们需要做的工作呢？”显然我们需要这样做，但是这笔交易的冠军是次要工作，这就是我如何在不被解雇的情况下做出决定？

And so we got to help them accomplish that job, otherwise we don't get what we want, which is the money.

所以我们必须帮助他们完成这项工作，否则我们就得不到我们想要的，那就是钱。

Lenny: It's so interesting.

莱尼：这太有趣了。

And it's not even necessarily get fired, it's even the performance sufferers or they don't get the promotion, it's did they do a good job.

甚至不一定会被解雇，甚至是绩效不佳或者他们没有得到晋升，而是他们做得很好。

This makes me think of a process at Airbnb we went through to buy community forum software and I just remember these massive teams of salespeople come to the office and pitching everyone on the software and they just keep pushing you to make what's the next step here, who do we need to roll in, who needs to buy into it?

这让我想起了我们在 Airbnb 购买社区论坛软件的一个流程，我只记得这些庞大的销售团队来到办公室，向每个人推销该软件，他们只是不断敦促你下一步要做什么，我们需要谁参与，谁需要购买它？

And it's just like, "Oh my God, it's so stressful.

就像，“天哪，压力太大了。

I have to keep this thing moving." And then there's IT coming in like, "Oh, we got to make sure it integrates with Salesforce." And you start with I just wanted the best community forum software because we were trying to build something really different and unique and you end up with like, "Okay, it's fine, just go with the thing that works with Salesforce.

我必须让这件事继续下去。”然后 IT 人员会说：“哦，我们必须确保它与 Salesforce 集成。”一开始我只是想要最好的社区论坛软件，因为我们试图构建一些真正不同且独特的东西，最终你会得到这样的结果：“好吧，没关系，只需使用与 Salesforce 兼容的东西即可。

It's all good.

一切都很好。

I'm just going to move on to another process."

我将继续进行另一个流程。”

April Dunford: Well, this is the thing, it's so easy to default to the market leader in that situation.

April Dunford：嗯，就是这样，在这种情况下很容易默认市场领导者。

The market leader has this big advantage that you can say, "You know what?

市场领导者拥有这样一个巨大的优势，你可以说：“你知道吗？

Who's going to get me in trouble for picking Salesforce?

谁会给我选择 Salesforce 带来麻烦？

Nobody." It's so easy to just flip back on that.

没有人。”很容易就可以翻转过来。

And so if you're the challenger in this situation, the brand that's number two or number three, you've got to get over all of this inertia and tilting towards the status quo, because it's just so easy, it's the lowest risk decision, besides do nothing is to just pick the leader in the market and we'll just run with that.

因此，如果你是这种情况下的挑战者，即排名第二或第三的品牌，你必须克服所有这些惯性并倾向于现状，因为这很容易，这是风险最低的决定，此外什么也不做就是选择市场上的领导者，我们将继续这样做。

Lenny: I think the classic phrase was no one gets fired for buying Microsoft.

莱尼：我认为经典的一句话是没有人会因为购买微软而被解雇。

I wonder is it Salesforce now that's the default version of that now?

我想知道 Salesforce 现在是默认版本吗？

April Dunford: Yeah, the original one was IBM.

April Dunford：是的，最初的是 IBM。

Lenny: I think you're right.

莱尼：我认为你是对的。

Oh, man.

哦，伙计。

April Dunford: Now you totally get fired for buying IBM.

April Dunford：现在你因为购买 IBM 而彻底被解雇了。

I don't know what happens.

我不知道会发生什么。

The other thing you bring up is I think an interesting thing to think about too that really messes people up in these situations is that in B2B, typical purchase process, we have five to seven people involved in making the deal happen and so there's this complexity we don't have a consumer, but a lot of people I think overcomplicate that.

你提到的另一件事是，我认为一件有趣的事情也值得思考，在这些情况下确实让人们感到困惑，那就是在 B2B 中，典型的购买流程，我们有五到七个人参与促成交易，所以存在这种复杂性，我们没有消费者，但我认为很多人把它复杂化了。

In a typical B2B purchase process, we've got someone in that buying team is what we would call the champion.

在典型的 B2B 采购流程中，采购团队中的某个人就是我们所说的冠军。

So that person is the person who's been tasked with, hey, pick us the accounting software or pick us the CRM, you figure it out.

所以那个人就是那个被赋予任务的人，嘿，选择我们的会计软件或选择我们的 CRM，你自己搞清楚。

And so that person is the person that does the initial research, makes the short list, probably sits on the first calls, and then there's all these other people.

因此，这个人就是进行初步研究、列出最终名单、可能参加第一个电话会议的人，然后就是所有其他人。

April Dunford: Now, the other people can't make a deal happen, but they can kill it a thousand ways.

艾普里尔·邓福德：现在，其他人无法达成交易，但他们可以用一千种方式来阻止它。

So the way this works is your positioning and your pitch needs to really work for the champion, because if it doesn't, you don't even get to talk to anybody else, you don't even get to go near anybody else if you don't make it out of the shortlist and you don't get the deal cooking.

因此，这种方法的运作方式是你的定位和你的推销需要真正为冠军服务，因为如果不这样做，你甚至无法与其他任何人交谈，如果你没有进入候选名单，你甚至无法接近其他任何人，并且你无法获得交易。

But once the deal is cooking it is on you to arm that champion to handle all the objections potentially of all the other groups.

但一旦交易达成，你就需要武装那个冠军来处理所有其他团体可能提出的反对意见。

So if you're the line of business buyer, let's say you're in the sales department and you're buying a CRM, IT is going to have to get involved at some point, and IT doesn't really care about the value of your CRM, but they do care does it meet the security requirements and does it integrate with the stuff we already have and how much of a pain is this thing going to be to manage, and so we're not actually pitching value to those people, we're just handling objections.

因此，如果您是业务线买家，假设您在销售部门，并且要购买 CRM，那么 IT 部门必须在某个时候介入，IT 部门并不真正关心您的 CRM 的价值，但他们确实关心它是否满足安全要求，是否与我们已有的东西集成，以及管理这个东西会带来多大的痛苦，所以我们实际上并没有向这些人推销价值，我们只是在处理反对意见。

April Dunford: And so once we realize that, then we can get really tight on our positioning in our sales pitch.

April Dunford：一旦我们意识到这一点，我们就可以在销售宣传中严格定位。

What we're really trying to do is just cook the champion, get the champion, and then once the deal's going we got to arm the champion for how to handle all these objections of all these other groups so that you can get a consensus to get a deal moving forward.

我们真正想做的就是烹调冠军，获得冠军，然后一旦交易进行，我们就必须武装冠军如何处理所有其他团体的所有这些反对意见，以便达成共识以推动交易。

Lenny: How do you actually do that?

莱尼：你实际上是怎么做到的？

Is it ask them what are all the concerns you're hearing?

是否询问他们您听到的所有担忧是什么？

Is it ask the individual stakeholders what your biggest concern is?

是否询问各个利益相关者您最关心的问题是什么？

April Dunford: Well, if we're really smart, we already know because we've done lots of deals.

April Dunford：好吧，如果我们真的很聪明，我们就已经知道了，因为我们已经做了很多交易。

So if we're being a good partner in this, sometimes even in the very first meeting in that spot where we're talking about objectives, we're going to say, "Hey, look, IT is going to come in and they're going to be worried about this, this, and this, and don't worry, we got you."

因此，如果我们在这方面成为一个好的合作伙伴，有时甚至在第一次会议上我们讨论目标时，我们就会说，“嘿，看，IT 将会介入，他们会担心这个、这个、这个，别担心，我们有你。”

April Dunford: So we're SOC 2 compliant, we do this, we do that, we know because we've done 15 deals and we know what these deals are like and we know what the stuff is going to be.

April Dunford：所以我们符合 SOC 2，我们这样做，我们这样做，我们知道，因为我们已经完成了 15 笔交易，我们知道这些交易是什么样的，我们知道这些东西会是什么。

You might have the champion come in and say, "Well, I don't know, end users might not like it." And it's like, "Okay, well, here's how we're going to get your end users on board, this is the training we have, this is the stuff we're going to do." The neat thing, if you have a product like on the front end of that, it takes that objection off the table.

您可能会让冠军进来并说：“好吧，我不知道，最终用户可能不喜欢它。”就像，“好吧，这就是我们如何让您的最终用户加入，这就是我们所进行的培训，这就是我们要做的事情。”巧妙的是，如果您有一个像前端那样的产品，那么就可以消除这种反对意见。

And you might have other things like you're going to take this to your boss and they're going to want to know ROI numbers, blah, blah, blah, and we've already done that, look, here's our calculator, if you give us this information, we can put this in, here's how you sell your boss.

你可能还有其他事情，比如你要把这个交给你的老板，他们会想知道投资回报率数字，等等，等等，我们已经做到了，看，这是我们的计算器，如果你给我们这个信息，我们可以把它放进去，这就是你如何推销你的老板。

April Dunford: So that's what we're doing.

April Dunford：这就是我们正在做的事情。

We're trying to arm them because we've done a million deals, they've never bought software like this before.

我们正在努力武装他们，因为我们已经完成了一百万笔交易，他们以前从未购买过这样的软件。

So half the time you'll be doing deals and they don't even know what the purchase process is.

因此，有一半的时间你会进行交易，而他们甚至不知道购买流程是什么。

And so if we're being good partners, we're like, "Okay, does this need to go to purchasing?" And they'll say, "Yeah, it probably does." Oh, well, here's what typically happens at purchasing.

因此，如果我们是好的合作伙伴，我们会想，“好吧，这需要去采购吗？”他们会说：“是的，可能是这样。”哦，好吧，这就是购买时通常会发生的情况。

They're going to do this, this, this, and we're going to give you this stuff and that's going to help you get it through purchasing.

他们会这样做，这个，这个，我们会给你这些东西，这将帮助你通过购买获得它。

Lenny: The way you're describing it now makes it feel like you need to be a big company for this to be useful because smaller companies don't have all these reps and they may not have the resources to do all these things you're describing.

莱尼：你现在描述的方式让人感觉你需要成为一家大公司才能发挥作用，因为小公司没有所有这些代表，而且他们可能没有资源来完成你所描述的所有这些事情。

Who is this framework useful for?

这个框架对谁有用？

Can you use this approach if you're just, say, an early stage B2B?

如果您只是一家早期 B2B 企业，您可以使用这种方法吗？

April Dunford: Well, so it's B2B products.

April Dunford：嗯，这是 B2B 产品。

If you don't have a sales team, I still think you can use this structure to build a story that marketing can use and you can use in different ways, and we can talk about that.

如果你没有销售团队，我仍然认为你可以使用这种结构来构建一个营销可以使用的故事，你可以以不同的方式使用，我们可以讨论这个。

But in the companies that I work with, they're B2B, they've got a sales team, and so the immediate thing we're doing is we're making a shift in positioning, we're building a sales pitch that reflects that positioning, we can immediately implement that in sales even though it's going to take a while for us to forklift the messaging and do other stuff and change our campaigns and everything else to match this new positioning, but we can tighten up the sales pitch and have an immediate impact over in sales on that.

但在我合作的公司中，他们是B2B，他们有销售团队，所以我们立即要做的事情就是改变定位，我们正在建立反映该定位的销售宣传，我们可以立即在销售中实施这一点，尽管我们需要一段时间来提升消息传递并做其他事情并改变我们的营销活动和其他一切以匹配这个新定位，但我们可以加强销售宣传并立即对销售产生影响。

Second thing is that I've worked with tons of companies where the founder is the only sales rep and this works pretty good for that.

第二件事是，我曾与大量公司合作过，其中创始人是唯一的销售代表，这对此非常有效。

April Dunford: I don't think we need a ton of resources to do it, but I do think we need to have enough traction in the market that we understand how a deal typically goes.

April Dunford：我认为我们不需要大量资源来做到这一点，但我确实认为我们需要在市场上有足够的吸引力，以便我们了解交易通常如何进行。

So if we haven't sold anything yet then we don't know yet, it's hard for us to help you buy something if we don't even know how to sell it.

因此，如果我们还没有出售任何东西，那么我们还不知道，如果我们甚至不知道如何出售它，我们就很难帮助您购买东西。

But if I've done 10 deals, I know what happens, I got a pretty good guess of what IT is going to say when you try to implement this stuff, I have a good guess of what's going to happen when we go to roll it out, I have a pretty good guess of what your boss might object to or might get excited by.

但如果我已经完成了 10 笔交易，我知道会发生什么，我很好地猜测当你尝试实施这些东西时 IT 部门会说什么，我很好地猜测当我们推出它时会发生什么，我很好地猜测你的老板可能会反对什么或可能会感到兴奋。

And so I don't necessarily need a research team to go figure this out.

所以我不一定需要一个研究团队来解决这个问题。

This is just me trying to be helpful and help the champion do their job of getting this deal to the finish line.

这只是我试图提供帮助并帮助冠军完成他们的工作，以完成这笔交易。

Lenny: So maybe the MVP of this approach is a deck that you continue iterating and adjust and restructure, and also bullet points of things you want to bring up like, "Okay, cool, IT is going to ask for these things," a few bullet points that you keep track of.

Lenny：所以，也许这种方法的 MVP 是一个你可以继续迭代、调整和重组的套牌，还有你想要提出的要点，比如“好吧，很酷，IT 会要求这些东西”，你可以跟踪这些要点。

Lenny: I'm also thinking from the perspective of a product team building a product, they don't really sell it themselves.

Lenny：我也从产品团队构建产品的角度思考，他们自己并不真正销售产品。

They work with sales, they work with marketing.

他们与销售一起工作，他们与营销一起工作。

Is there anything that you would recommend or that you think product teams could learn from this approach of selling that would help them build products in a different way or work with sales in a different way?

您有什么建议，或者您认为产品团队可以从这种销售方法中学到什么，以帮助他们以不同的方式构建产品或以不同的方式进行销售？

April Dunford: Yeah.

阿普丽尔·邓福德：是的。

So here's what I think, the core of a good sales pitch is really deeply understanding your differentiated value, which is what is the value I can deliver that no other solution can.

所以我认为，良好的销售宣传的核心是真正深入了解您的差异化价值，这就是我可以提供其他解决方案无法提供的价值。

Often what I see at companies is you got a smart product team and they know a lot about the stuff they're building and why it's important and what the value is to the customer, and they did all this work on that when they were building it, but that information never made the jump to sales, because sales isn't even trying to pitch value.

我经常在公司看到的是，你有一个聪明的产品团队，他们非常了解他们正在构建的东西，为什么它很重要，以及对客户的价值是什么，他们在构建它时做了所有这些工作，但这些信息从未跳转到销售，因为销售甚至没有试图推销价值。

They're just pitching features like here's the dropdown menus, here's what they do.

他们只是推销一些功能，比如这里的下拉菜单，这就是他们所做的。

And so the first step in fixing this I think is to have a cross-functional team work on positioning.

因此，我认为解决这个问题的第一步是让跨职能团队进行定位工作。

April Dunford: So if I've got product, marketing, and sales together in the room working on defining what our differentiated value is, then I'm going to get all the good juice out of the product team that deeply understands the product, deeply understand what's differentiated about it, deeply understands value, and then I'm also going to have all the juice from the sales team that understands what the common objections are, what the champion really wants to get done and doesn't want to get done, what the situation is in a typical account, and then all of this cool information sharing happens, which actually you end up with way better definition of your differentiated value in the first place.

April Dunford：因此，如果我让产品、营销和销售人员在房间里共同努力定义我们的差异化价值是什么，那么我将从产品团队中汲取所有的精华，他们深入了解产品，深入了解产品的差异化，深入了解价值，然后我还将从销售团队中汲取所有精华，他们了解常见的反对意见是什么，冠军真正想要完成什么，不想完成什么，公司的情况如何。典型的帐户，然后所有这些很酷的信息共享都会发生，实际上您首先可以更好地定义您的差异化价值。

April Dunford: And so once we've done that work, it is very natural then for us to work together on the sales pitch that reflects that.

April Dunford：一旦我们完成了这项工作，我们就很自然地在销售宣传上进行合作以反映这一点。

What typically happens is not that at all.

通常发生的情况根本不是这样。

What typically happens is product's working on some stuff, sales is working on some stuff, marketing's working on some stuff.

通常发生的情况是产品在处理某些事情，销售在处理某些事情，营销在处理某些事情。

Marketing in their own little bubble comes up with positioning, they might build some stuff for the sales team, heave it over to the sales team.

在他们自己的小泡沫中进行营销会带来定位，他们可能会为销售团队构建一些东西，然后将其交给销售团队。

Sales team looks at it and says, "I don't get what any of this stuff is.

销售团队看着它说：“我不明白这些东西是什么。

I disagree with this.

我不同意这一点。

This doesn't match what I see," and they just throw it out and they go back to doing the same pitch they've been doing since the year of the flood.

这与我所看到的不符，”然后他们就把它扔掉，然后又继续做自洪水之年以来一直在做的同样的事情。

Lenny: That's a long time.

莱尼：那是很长一段时间了。

So first podcast episode was all around positioning, and so folks want to get deep into that, they should listen to that, so we're not going to spend tons of time there, but differentiated value is a big part of this process also so I think it's worth spending a bit of time here.

所以第一集播客都是关于定位的，所以人们想深入了解这一点，他们应该听听，所以我们不会在那里花费大量时间，但差异化价值也是这个过程的重要组成部分，所以我认为值得在这里花一点时间。

Could you maybe share a couple examples of what this is to give people a sense of what does it mean to share differentiated value?

您能否分享几个例子来让人们了解共享差异化价值意味着什么？

April Dunford: Yeah.

阿普丽尔·邓福德：是的。

So differentiated value is the answer to the question why pick us over the other alternatives?

因此，差异化价值是为什么选择我们而不是其他替代品这个问题的答案？

And so the way we get at that in positioning is we start with putting a stake in the ground of who do we actually compete with?

因此，我们在定位上的方法是首先把赌注放在我们真正与谁竞争的基础上？

And so if we didn't exist in the market, what would a customer do?

那么，如果我们不存在于市场中，客户会做什么？

And so typically there's some status quo thing, it might not even look like you, it might just be a spreadsheet, or do it with the intern or manual labor, and then there's whatever else ends up on a short list against us.

因此，通常会有一些现状的事情，它甚至可能看起来不像你，它可能只是一个电子表格，或者用实习生或体力劳动来完成，然后还有其他任何东西最终出现在对我们不利的简短清单上。

And it's basically the definition of I got to beat all this plus indecision in order to win a deal, so I can stick my stake in the ground.

这基本上就是我必须克服所有这些加上优柔寡断才能赢得交易的定义，这样我就可以坚持下去。

Sales knows the answer to this question.

销售人员知道这个问题的答案。

If you have a sales team, they know the answer to this question, what would a customer do if we didn't exist, they know.

如果你有一个销售团队，他们知道这个问题的答案，如果我们不存在，客户会做什么，他们知道。

April Dunford: And then we get to the next step is, well, so what do we have that's different?

April Dunford：然后我们进入下一步，那么我们有什么不同之处呢？

And that's capability wise, feature function of the product or capability of the company, so it could be features, it could be your pricing model, it could be we have support in a way that the other folks don't.

这是能力方面的，产品的功能或公司的能力，所以它可能是功能，它可能是你的定价模型，也可能是我们以其他人没有的方式提供支持。

So there's all kinds of things it could be.

所以可能有各种各样的事情。

It could be be the breadth of the portfolio that you have beyond that one product, we can fill whiteboards with this stuff.

这可能是您拥有的产品组合的广度超出了一种产品，我们可以用这些东西填充白板。

And then what we do is we go down that list of features and we say, "So what?

然后我们要做的就是查看功能列表，然后说：“那又怎么样？

You got advanced AI, whatever the heck the thing is, so what?

你有先进的人工智能，不管是什么，那又怎样？

Why does anybody care?" And the answer to that so what is your value.

为什么有人关心？”答案就是你的价值是什么。

And because it came from this differentiated feature, it's generally value that the other guys can't deliver because they don't have the capabilities that underpin it.

因为它来自这种差异化的功能，所以其他人通常无法提供其价值，因为他们不具备支撑它的能力。

April Dunford: So if I give you an example, a company I worked with a few years back, they've recently been acquired by Salesforce called LevelJump, and so they're in the sales enablement space, which is terrible.

April Dunford：所以，如果我给你举个例子，几年前我曾合作过一家公司，他们最近被 Salesforce 收购，名为 LevelJump，所以他们处于销售支持领域，这很糟糕。

There's a million companies in the sales enablement space and they all look the same.

销售支持领域有一百万家公司，但它们看起来都一样。

And so LevelJump, so if you look at, well, what's the competitive alternatives, if I look at all the companies in the sales enablement space, you can put them into two buckets in terms of approaches, they're either a CMS like a jazzy content repository where you could make sure that people are using the right content and whatever, or they're an LMS, a learning management system, which I can build the course and certify you on the course, and that's how we're going to train the sales reps.

因此，LevelJump，如果你看一下，那么，有什么竞争性的替代方案，如果我看一下销售支持领域的所有公司，你可以根据方法将它们分为两类，它们要么是一个 CMS，比如一个爵士内容存储库，你可以确保人们使用正确的内容等等，要么它们是一个 LMS，一个学习管理系统，我可以构建课程并在课程上对你进行认证，这就是我们培训的方式销售代表。

April Dunford: If you look at LevelJump, they're differentiated capability is they're the only one that's built on top of Salesforce.

April Dunford：如果你看看 LevelJump，就会发现他们的差异化能力是他们是唯一建立在 Salesforce 之上的。

That's the feature, we're built on Salesforce, the other folks aren't.

这就是功能，我们是基于 Salesforce 构建的，其他人不是。

And then who cares?

然后谁在乎呢？

So what?

所以呢？

And so when we first had a conversation about it, there was five or six different answers to that so what question, but the big answer was, well, because we're built on top of Salesforce, my sales enablement data is integrated with my sales data.

因此，当我们第一次就此进行对话时，对于这个问题有五六个不同的答案，但最重要的答案是，因为我们是建立在 Salesforce 之上的，所以我的销售支持数据与我的销售数据集成在一起。

And then you say, "Well, so what about that?" Well, because then that means I can actually tell did the sales enablement improve time to first deal or improve time to make quota?

然后你说：“那么，那又如何呢？”好吧，因为这意味着我实际上可以判断销售支持是否缩短了首次交易的时间或缩短了完成配额的时间？

Well, so what about that?

嗯，那又怎样呢？

Well, if I improve that ramp time, then we get way more revenue faster.

好吧，如果我改善斜坡时间，那么我们就能更快地获得更多收入。

So that's the differentiated value.

这就是差异化价值。

April Dunford: When I go to do that in a sales pitch, I can translate that into my insight.

April Dunford：当我在推销中这样做时，我可以将其转化为我的见解。

My insight is every day your rep's not making it costs you money.

我的见解是，您的代表每天都不会让您花钱。

So if we really want to solve sales enablement, don't we really want to have something where we can measure whether or not the sales enablement is working with sales metrics?

因此，如果我们真的想解决销售支持问题，难道我们真的不想有一些东西可以衡量销售支持是否与销售指标相配合吗？

Yeah, we do.

是的，我们愿意。

Lenny: Interesting.

莱尼：有趣。

So the differentiated value often informs the insight that you start with?

那么差异化价值通常会告诉您一开始的洞察力吗？

April Dunford: It does.

阿普丽尔·邓福德：是的。

It absolutely is.

绝对是。

The insight is basically the context that makes your differentiated value important, what is the thing you need to know to understand the importance of my differentiated value?

洞察力基本上是使您的差异化价值变得重要的背景，您需要了解什么才能理解我的差异化价值的重要性？

In the case of Help Scout, the insight is, look, digital businesses like customer service is a growth driver, where does that come from?

就 Help Scout 而言，我们的见解是，客户服务等数字业务是增长动力，它来自哪里？

If you look at their differentiated value, it's there.

如果你看看它们的差异化价值，它就在那里。

And so we can just reverse it, flip it around.

所以我们可以反转它，翻转它。

Even if the product wasn't necessarily constructed with that insight, maybe we got there sideways or the roundabout way or whatever, we iterated our way into that.

即使产品不一定是用这种洞察力构建的，也许我们是通过侧面或迂回的方式或其他方式到达那里的，我们会迭代我们的方式。

We can look at the differentiated value and then basically reverse it out to the insight.

我们可以看看差异化的价值，然后基本上将其转化为洞察力。

Lenny: What's a sign that the differentiated value or insight that you've come up with just isn't clicking?

莱尼：什么迹象表明您提出的差异化价值或见解没有奏效？

April Dunford: If the differentiated value doesn't work in a sales pitch, what you'll get is the company going, "Why would I pay for that?

阿普丽尔·邓福德：如果差异化价值在销售宣传中不起作用，你会得到的结果是公司会说：“我为什么要为此付费？

This is not value for me, buddy." The companies I work with, the way I look at it is if you're in market and you're selling and you have happy, engaged customers, there's differentiated value there.

这对我来说没有价值，伙计。”对于与我合作的公司，我的看法是，如果你进入市场并进行销售，并且拥有满意的、积极参与的客户，那么那里就有差异化的价值。

That's why they picked you.

这就是他们选择你的原因。

That's why they love you.

这就是他们爱你的原因。

That's why they don't turn out on you.

这就是为什么他们不会背叛你。

It's there.

它就在那里。

You might not know what it is, we might have to do a little process to get at it, but it's there and it exists.

你可能不知道它是什么，我们可能需要做一些过程才能得到它，但它就在那里并且存在。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Another question that's been in the back of my mind since we started talking about differentiated values is just how honest should you be about the competition?

自从我们开始谈论差异化价值观以来，我脑海中一直萦绕的另一个问题是，你应该对竞争有多诚实？

Obviously there's a spectrum of extremely honest to super biased, what's your guidance on just how honest to be there?

显然，存在着一系列从极其诚实到超级偏见的人，你对如何诚实有什么指导？

April Dunford: The posture I think you should assume in a sales situation, I had an old boss used to talk about this, is the posture we should have is calm confidence.

April Dunford：我认为在销售情况下你应该采取的姿势，我有一个老老板曾经谈论过这个，我们应该有的姿势是冷静自信。

So where that calm confidence comes from is we really understand why people should pick us.

因此，这种平静的信心来自于我们真正理解为什么人们应该选择我们。

So this is differentiated value, we really understand it and we really understand who that's a really good fit for, and we don't even bother trying to chase anybody else.

所以这是差异化的价值，我们真正理解它，我们真正理解它真正适合谁，我们甚至不费心去追逐其他人。

April Dunford: So we should be able to come in and say, "Look, we're sales enablement that delivers results.

April Dunford：所以我们应该能够进来并说：“看，我们是提供成果的销售支持。

If you don't care about those results, you shouldn't pick us.

如果您不关心这些结果，您就不应该选择我们。

You should pick someone else." And so generally what we're trying to be is extremely honest.

你应该选择其他人。”所以总的来说，我们努力做到的是非常诚实。

We're trying to come in and actually give credit where credit is due with the other approaches, because typically the other approaches work just fine for other kinds of companies.

我们试图介入并实际给予其他方法应得的信任，因为通常其他方法对于其他类型的公司来说效果很好。

If you're really small and you're not growing e-commerce business, use a shared inbox.

如果您的规模很小并且不打算发展电子商务业务，请使用共享收件箱。

It's free, it's easy to use, there's no problems there, just use it.

它是免费的，易于使用，没有任何问题，只需使用它即可。

If you're really worried about bringing the cost down in a customer service center, maybe you should use Zendesk.

如果您真的担心降低客户服务中心的成本，也许您应该使用 Zendesk。

And so I think the more we can act as a guide in this situation and come in and say, "Look, these guys are good for this, these folks are good for this, and we're good for this.

因此，我认为在这种情况下，我们更多地可以充当指导，并进来说：“看，这些人很适合这个，这些人很适合这个，我们也很适合这个。

And you might not care about that, and if you don't care about that, we're not the one for you.

您可能不关心这一点，如果您不关心这一点，我们就不适合您。

You shouldn't pick us." But I think that...

你不应该选择我们。”但我认为...

April Dunford: We're not the one for you.

艾普丽尔·邓福德：我们不适合你。

You shouldn't pick us.

你不应该选择我们。

But I think that this calm confidence idea is that where we know the client should pick us, we should be unafraid to fight for that business.

但我认为这种冷静的信心理念是，当我们知道客户应该选择我们时，我们就应该无所畏惧地为这项业务而奋斗。

But we should totally walk away from business where we're not the best fit.

但我们应该完全放弃那些我们不适合的业务。

We shouldn't be chasing that business at all.

我们根本不应该追逐这项业务。

Lenny: And this comes back to teaching them how to buy again and again.

莱尼：这又回到了教他们如何一次又一次地购买。

For these cases where you're like, "This is not a fit." Ideally you know that before you fly to their office and pitch them.

对于这些情况，你可能会说，“这不合适。”理想情况下，您在飞往他们的办公室向他们推销之前就知道这一点。

April Dunford: Yeah, generally you've had some kind of qualification happen upstream, and so that qualification could be done in lots of different ways.

April Dunford：是的，一般来说，上游已经进行了某种资格认证，因此可以通过多种不同的方式完成资格认证。

If you've got some kind of product like growth motion in the beginning, you're looking for signals in that.

如果你一开始就有某种产品，比如增长运动，你就会在其中寻找信号。

And if the signals aren't there, then you're not talking to them.

如果没有信号，那么你就无法与他们交谈。

And so if you've designed your signals right, then you already know there's intent there.

因此，如果您正确设计了信号，那么您就已经知道其中存在意图。

You already know you're a fit.

你已经知道你很适合。

You already know stuff.

你已经知道一些东西了。

The way a lot of companies do this is they'll have inside sales do a qualification call before they set up a first call with a sales rep.

许多公司这样做的方式是，在与销售代表进行第一次通话之前，他们会让内部销售人员进行资格通话。

In that qualification call, you're trying to make sure is this the right person?

在资格审查中，您想确定这是合适的人选吗？

Do they have a need that we can actually meet?

他们的需求是我们能够真正满足的吗？

Is this actually a good fit for what we do?

这实际上适合我们所做的事情吗？

And if they're not, they don't even make it to the call.

如果他们不这样做，他们甚至不会参加电话会议。

Lenny: Mm-hmm.

莱尼：嗯嗯。

Imagine a place where you can find all your potential customers and get your message in front of them in a cost efficient way.

想象一下，您可以找到所有潜在客户并以经济高效的方式向他们传达您的信息。

If you're a B1B business, that place exists, and it's called LinkedIn.

如果您从事 B1B 企业，那么这个地方就存在，它的名字叫 LinkedIn。

LinkedIn Ads allows you to build the right relationships, drive results, and reach your customers in a respectful environment.

LinkedIn 广告可让您建立正确的关系、推动成果并在相互尊重的环境中接触您的客户。

Two of my portfolio companies, Webflow and Census, are LinkedIn success stories.

我的投资组合中的两家公司 Webflow 和 Census 都是 LinkedIn 的成功案例。

Census had a 10x increase in pipeline with the LinkedIn startup team.

Census 与 LinkedIn 初创团队合作的渠道增加了 10 倍。

For Webflow after ramping up on LinkedIn in Q3, they had the highest marketing source revenue quarter to date.

对于 Webflow 在第三季度在 LinkedIn 上的推广后，他们拥有了迄今为止季度最高的营销来源收入。

With LinkedIn Ads you'll have direct access to and can build relationships with decision makers including 950 million members, 180 million senior execs and over 10 million C-level executives.

通过 LinkedIn Ads，您可以直接接触决策者并与其建立关系，其中包括 9.5 亿会员、1.8 亿高级管理人员和超过 1000 万 C 级管理人员。

You'll be able to drive results with targeting and measurement tools built specifically for B2B.

您将能够利用专为 B2B 构建的定位和衡量工具来推动结果。

In tech LinkedIn generated two to five x higher return on ad spend than any other social media platforms.

在科技领域，LinkedIn 的广告支出回报率比任何其他社交媒体平台高出两到五倍。

Lenny: Audiences on LinkedIn have two times the buying power of the average web audience, and you'll work with a partner who respects the B2B world you operate in.

Lenny：LinkedIn 上的受众的购买力是普通网络受众的两倍，而且您将与尊重您所在 B2B 世界的合作伙伴合作。

Make B2B marketing everything it can be and get $100 credit on your next campaign.

尽一切可能进行 B2B 营销，并在您的下一次营销活动中获得 100 美元的积分。

Just go to linkedin.com/podlenny to claim your credit.

只需访问 linkedin.com/podlenny 即可领取您的积分。

That's linkedin.com/podlenny.

那是 linkedin.com/podlenny。

Terms and conditions apply.

条款和条件适用。

Lenny: Another question around this idea of differentiated value and just alternative approaches is there's a certain previous guest who was very big on creating a category being extremely important, and that potentially being the only way to build a legendary business.

莱尼：围绕差异化价值和替代方法这一理念的另一个问题是，之前有一位客人非常热衷于创建一个极其重要的类别，而这可能是建立传奇业务的唯一途径。

I know you have a different perspective on that because in theory if you go that direction, there's no alternative.

我知道你对此有不同的看法，因为从理论上讲，如果你朝这个方向发展，就别无选择。

It's like "We're the one." What's your take on that?

这就像“我们是唯一的”。你对此有何看法？

April Dunford: Well, so here's a few things.

艾普丽尔·邓福德：嗯，这里有一些事情。

So one, obviously creating a category is not the only way to create a legendary business because the vast majority of legendary businesses did not create the categories that they're in.

因此，显然创建一个类别并不是创建传奇企业的唯一方法，因为绝大多数传奇企业并没有创建它们所属的类别。

So Google did not create search, Facebook did not create social network.

所以谷歌没有创建搜索，Facebook没有创建社交网络。

There's so many of them.

他们有很多。

It's actually more of an exception to the rule that the company is creating a category than the other way around.

实际上，这更像是公司创建一个类别这一规则的例外，而不是相反。

So I think it's a bit disingenuous to say the only way.

所以我认为说唯一的方法有点不诚实。

It is a way to build a big business, no question about that.

毫无疑问，这是建立大企业的一种方式。

But it's absolutely not the only way.

但这绝对不是唯一的方法。

In fact, it is not the most common way, but it is a way and it does work.

事实上，这不是最常见的方式，但它是一种方式，而且确实有效。

So that's one thing.

所以这是一回事。

The second thing is that category creation is interesting.

第二件事是品类创建很有趣。

Like most companies, if you look at their arc, even the category creators that are successful, they did not start out as category creators.

像大多数公司一样，如果你看看他们的弧线，即使是成功的类别创建者，他们也不是从类别创建者开始的。

April Dunford: So they started out as a niche play in an existing category, and that's because that's generally the easiest way to get traction for a company early because what is the job of the market category?

April Dunford：因此，它们一开始是作为现有类别中的利基市场，这是因为这通常是尽早吸引公司注意力的最简单方法，因为市场类别的工作是什么？

The job of a market category is to help answer the question, what is this thing all about?

市场类别的工作是帮助回答这个问题：这到底是什么？

If I'm positioning an existing category, I can say, "Well, I'm CRM for very small businesses." That was Salesforce's initial positioning.

如果我要定位现有类别，我可以说：“嗯，我是为小型企业提供 CRM。”这是 Salesforce 的最初定位。

I didn't have to explain to you what a CRM was, that already existed.

我不需要向您解释 CRM 是什么，它已经存在了。

There was already billion dollar company in that space.

该领域已经有价值数十亿美元的公司。

We know what a CRM is, and I could say "We're CRM for very small businesses.

我们知道什么是 CRM，我可以说“我们是为小型企业提供的 CRM。

The reason you can use in this very small businesses is we don't have any software.

您可以在这个非常小的企业中使用的原因是我们没有任何软件。

So you don't have to have an IT department to babysit it.

因此，您无需聘请 IT 部门来照管它。

It's fantastic."

太棒了。”

April Dunford: So most companies start there.

April Dunford：所以大多数公司都是从这里开始的。

Now what happens is that if you become the dominant player in that space, which again, category creation folks talk about this like no category creator has ever lost the market.

现在发生的情况是，如果你成为该领域的主导者，品类创建者再次谈论这一点，就像没有品类创建者失去市场一样。

In fact, most category creators wins their market.

事实上，大多数品类创造者都赢得了市场。

Like what happened to MySpace?

就像 MySpace 发生了什么一样？

What happened to Ask Jeeves?

问吉夫斯发生了什么？

It didn't work out so good for them.

结果对他们来说不太好。

Most category creators actually get overtaken by fast followers.

大多数品类创造者实际上都会被快速追随者超越。

So if we look at the CRM market, Siebel was the big dominant player there and now they're not.

因此，如果我们看看 CRM 市场，Siebel 曾是那里的主要参与者，但现在却不是了。

So now we've got Salesforce.

现在我们有了 Salesforce。

Once you're the dominant player in that market, a cool move to do is to actually extend the boundaries of the category so that you can continue to grow.

一旦您成为该市场的主导者，一个很酷的举措就是实际扩展该类别的边界，以便您可以继续增长。

And most of the category creation examples we see are companies that when they were 200, 300, 400 million revenue dominating their space, then decided to move the goalposts and say, "Well actually now we're expanding into all these other areas and we're going to call this category something.

我们看到的大多数品类创建例子都是这样的公司，当他们的收入达到 200、300、4 亿，在自己的领域占据主导地位时，他们决定改变目标并说：“实际上，现在我们正在扩展到所有其他领域，我们将把这个品类称为某种东西。

And that's what it is."

就是这样。”

April Dunford: And there's loads of examples of that.

April Dunford：这样的例子有很多。

Like Qualtrics for example, is a company that a lot of people talk about very successful category creation.

例如，像 Qualtrics 一样，这是一家被很多人谈论非常成功的品类创建的公司。

Well, they were survey software up until there were 300 million revenue just like everybody else in an existing category.

嗯，它们只是调查软件，直到收入达到 3 亿美元，就像现有类别中的其他软件一样。

So that got them there and that worked just fine.

所以这让他们到达了那里并且效果很好。

Oh, well, once we're dominating it, now we can say it's whatever, it is, customer experience software, whatever it is.

哦，好吧，一旦我们主宰了它，现在我们可以说它是什么，它就是客户体验软件，无论它是什么。

Snowflake.

雪花。

Another good example like data warehousing in the cloud, they were that data warehousing, an existing market, were data warehousing for the cloud.

另一个很好的例子，比如云中的数据仓库，他们认为数据仓库是一个现有的市场，是云中的数据仓库。

That is not category creation.

那不是类别创建。

And that took them all the way up to the point where they were about to go public and now they're cloud data, which is their attempt to expand and say, "Well, it's not just data warehousing, it's actually data lakes and all other data stuff."

这让他们一路走到了即将上市的地步，现在他们是云数据，这是他们尝试扩展并说，“嗯，这不仅仅是数据仓库，它实际上是数据湖和所有其他数据。”

April Dunford: And so that's a smart move for them because they're now very well known in that space.

April Dunford：这对他们来说是明智之举，因为他们现在在该领域非常有名。

I'm not saying category creation is a bad thing.

我并不是说创建类别是一件坏事。

There are examples of company that came right out of the gate and successfully created a category and then survived to own the category longer term.

有一些公司一开始就成功创建了一个类别，然后幸存下来并长期拥有该类别。

But a more common thing that happens is that the company does the hard work of creating the category and in exactly the moment where the category starts to take hold, fast follower can come in with fresh funding and a lot of it and learn from all your mistakes and come in and knock you off the peak right when you think you've made it.

但更常见的情况是，公司为创建这个类别付出了艰苦的努力，而就在这个类别开始占据主导地位的那一刻，快速追随者可以带着新的资金和大量资金进来，并从你所有的错误中吸取教训，然后在你认为自己已经成功的时候介入并把你从巅峰上击落。

April Dunford: So I think category creation is, again, it's good, it works, but I think we have to be very careful when we're thinking about doing that at an early stage business or a business that isn't already dominating the category that they're in.

April Dunford：所以我认为创建品类再次是好事，它有效，但我认为当我们考虑在早期阶段的业务或尚未主导其所属品类的业务时这样做时，我们必须非常小心。

It's much more common to see companies come in, shave off a piece of the market, dominate that, and then successfully branch out.

更常见的情况是，公司进入市场，抢占一块市场，占据主导地位，然后成功拓展业务。

It's what Jeffrey Moore called bowling pin strategy.

这就是杰弗里摩尔所说的保龄球瓶策略。

Almost all successful companies follow bowling pin strategy.

几乎所有成功的公司都遵循保龄球瓶策略。

Lenny: Wait, what is that?

莱尼：等等，那是什么？

Let's touch on that real quick.

让我们快速讨论一下这个问题。

April Dunford: Oh yeah, you remember that thing.

艾普丽尔·邓福德：哦，是的，你还记得那件事。

It's funny how many times I've talked about bowling pin strategy in the last two months.

有趣的是，在过去的两个月里我多次谈论保龄球瓶策略。

So this comes from a bunch of work that was done around the way innovation gets adopted, blah, blah.

所以这来自于围绕创新的采用方式所做的一系列工作，等等。

So there's a bunch of research done on this stuff, and I'm going to misquote it because Jeffrey Moore stuff, I've been reading it for decades.

因此，对这些东西做了很多研究，我会错误地引用它，因为杰弗里·摩尔的东西，我已经读了几十年了。

But bowling pin strategy goes like this.

但保龄球瓶的策略是这样的。

The easiest way to take over a great big market is to define a segment of the market that is underserved by the market leader.

占领一个巨大市场的最简单方法是定义市场领导者服务不足的细分市场。

April Dunford: And so if you think about a bunch of bowling pins, we're going to circle around the lead pin, which is this little piece of the market that's easy for us to go get, and the market leader probably doesn't care about it.

April Dunford：如果你想到一堆保龄球瓶，我们就会围绕着主瓶，这是我们很容易获得的一小部分市场，而市场领导者可能并不关心它。

And so we knock over that pin and knocking over that pin enables us to get to the three pins right beside it.

所以我们撞倒了那个销钉，撞倒了那个销钉使我们能够到达它旁边的三个销钉。

And so now I'm established here as a beachhead and I can go get the next three pins, I'm going to knock those over, and eventually I get big enough to challenge the market leader and then I overtake them.

所以现在我已经在这里建立了滩头阵地，我可以去获得接下来的三个销钉，我将把它们击倒，最终我变得足够大以挑战市场领导者，然后我超越他们。

April Dunford: So the example for my early career was I worked at this company, we thought we were enterprise software.

April Dunford：我早期职业生涯的例子是我在这家公司工作，我们认为我们是企业软件。

We narrowed it down to CRM for investment banks, and so we literally drew bowling pins for our investors and said, "Lead pin is CRM for investment banks.

我们将范围缩小到投资银行的 CRM，因此我们实际上为投资者画了保龄球瓶，并说：“铅瓶是投资银行的 CRM。

Once we knock that over, then we're going to go to retail banking, then we're going to be CRM for banking.

一旦我们解决了这个问题，我们将进入零售银行业务，然后我们将成为银行业的 CRM。

And then once we knock that over, we're going to go to insurance, then we're going to be CRM for financial services.

一旦我们解决了这个问题，我们将进入保险领域，然后我们将成为金融服务领域的 CRM。

Once we knock that over, then we're going to be a great big company and we're going to challenge Siebel to be CRM for enterprise software." Instead we got acquired by Siebel for like $1 billion, but whatever.

一旦我们克服了这一点，我们就会成为一家伟大的大公司，我们将挑战 Siebel，成为企业软件的 CRM。”相反，我们被 Siebel 以大约 10 亿美元的价格收购了，但无论如何。

So most companies, if you look at the history of them, they actually start that way.

所以，如果你回顾一下大多数公司的历史，他们实际上都是这样开始的。

And so yeah, if we just fast forwarded to when they were 300 million, we can say "Category creation's the only thing to do," but it's like, well, what happened before then?

所以，是的，如果我们快进到 3 亿的时候，我们可以说“类别创建是唯一要做的事情”，但这就像，好吧，在那之前发生了什么？

That was something different.

那是不同的事情。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Let's come back to your framework.

让我们回到你的框架。

I'm looking at the list of bullet points.

我正在查看要点列表。

So we've covered a lot of this already actually.

实际上我们已经介绍了很多内容。

So there's the insight where you helped them understand what's happening in the world and what's changing and why this is important.

因此，您可以帮助他们了解世界上正在发生的事情和正在发生的变化以及为什么这很重要。

Then you talk about what the alternative approaches might be, pros and cons.

然后你会讨论替代方法可能是什么、优点和缺点。

Then there's this third step, which we haven't talked about yet, which is sharing the perfect world characteristics of a perfect solution.

然后是第三步，我们还没有讨论过，那就是共享完美解决方案的完美世界特征。

Can you talk a bit about that and why that's important?

您能谈谈这一点以及为什么这很重要吗？

April Dunford: So this is the conclusion of the setup phase.

April Dunford：这就是设置阶段的结论。

So if I'm Help Scout for example, the conclusion is we say, "Look, you really want customer success software that's as easy to use as an inbox.

因此，如果我是 Help Scout，我们的结论是：“看，您确实想要像收件箱一样易于使用的客户成功软件。

You're never going to outgrow it, but it was built from the ground up to be deliver an amazing service." And so it's this part of the pitch where we actually get agreement with the customer that we are aligned in terms of our point of view on the universe.

你永远不会超越它，但它是从头开始构建的，旨在提供令人惊叹的服务。”因此，正是在这一部分，我们实际上与客户达成了一致，我们对宇宙的观点是一致的。

So it's where I say, "Okay, we've had our little discussion about the pros and cons of the other alternatives," and we say, "So look, so are you with me, man?

所以我会说，“好吧，我们已经就其他替代方案的利弊进行了一些讨论”，然后我们说，“那么，你和我站在一起吗，伙计？

Can we all agree that a really good solution for you would have A, B and C?" And the customer is either like, "Yeah, right," or they're not.

我们是否都同意，对于您来说，真正好的解决方案应该包含 A、B 和 C？”客户要么会说“是的，没错”，要么就不会。

And so if they're right with you on this definition of the perfect world, then I've got you.

因此，如果他们对完美世界的定义与你的观点一致，那么我就支持你了。

I've already won the deal and I haven't even talked about us yet because the way I've set it up, I'm the only one that can deliver that.

我已经赢得了这笔交易，我什至还没有谈论过我们，因为按照我设定的方式，我是唯一能够实现这一目标的人。

April Dunford: So if you say, "Right," all I got to do is prove that I can do that and get you over the hurdle that it's possible for you to adopt it.

艾普丽尔·邓福德：所以，如果你说“对”，我所要做的就是证明我可以做到这一点，并帮助你克服可能采用它的障碍。

April Dunford: If all of this was easy, Lenny we would be on a beach drinking out of a coconut.

艾普里尔·邓福德：如果这一切都很容易的话，莱尼，我们就会在海滩上用椰子喝水了。

Lenny: Oh man, let's make it happen.

莱尼：天哪，让我们实现它吧。

Okay, so that's the setup.

好的，这就是设置。

What do you call the second part again?

你又把第二部分称为什么？

April Dunford: ...

阿普丽尔·邓福德：……

which is really focused on differentiated value.

这真正关注的是差异化价值。

So in the second part, the first step is usually we introduce our stuff, which is where the market category is important.

所以在第二部分，第一步通常是我们介绍我们的东西，这就是市场类别很重要的地方。

So we come in and we say, "Okay, can we agree that a really good solution should tick these boxes?

所以我们进来说，“好吧，我们可以同意一个真正好的解决方案应该勾选这些框吗？

Yes.

是的。

Okay, good.

好的，很好。

Now let's talk about us.

现在我们来谈谈我们吧。

Okay, so we believe that.

好吧，所以我们相信这一点。

That's why we build what we build."

这就是我们建造我们所建造的东西的原因。”

April Dunford: So here I am, I'm Help Scout, we're customer service software for digital businesses or whatever our market category is.

April Dunford：我在这里，我是 Help Scout，我们是数字企业或任何市场类别的客户服务软件。

So we introduce it just to get people straight in their mind about what it is, and then we move to here's the value, here's how we do it.

所以我们介绍它只是为了让人们清楚地了解它是什么，然后我们转向这里的价值，这里是我们如何做到这一点。

If we think about a typical sales call, like let's say a sales call is half an hour, 45 minutes, I would expect to spend more than half of the time in the sales call in this differentiated value phase.

如果我们考虑一次典型的销售拜访，比如一次销售拜访需要半小时 45 分钟，我预计在这个差异化价值阶段，将有一半以上的时间花在销售拜访上。

So if we're doing a demo, that's the demo, and we're saying, "Okay, step one, let me show you how we do this.

因此，如果我们正在做一个演示，那就是演示，我们会说：“好吧，第一步，让我向您展示我们如何做到这一点。

So easy to use as an inbox.

作为收件箱使用非常方便。

Here's the features.

这是特点。

Never have to outgrow it, here's the features.

永远不必超越它，这就是功能。

Delivers amazing customer experience, here's the features." And so that's where we're getting to the meat of what you thought you were getting when you clicked on the button that said, "Give me a demo."

提供令人惊叹的客户体验，这就是功能。”这就是当你点击“给我一个演示”按钮时你认为你得到的内容的核心。

April Dunford: So that's what we're doing there.

April Dunford：这就是我们正在做的事情。

And then we end with these three little pieces.

然后我们以这三个小片段结束。

One is generally I got to show you some proof that I can do what I say I can do.

一是通常我必须向您展示一些证据，证明我可以做到我所说的我可以做到的事情。

So if I'm claiming this thing delivers an amazing customer experience, how do I prove that?

因此，如果我声称这个东西提供了令人惊叹的客户体验，我该如何证明这一点？

Well, I can prove it by other customers saying it was amazing.

好吧，我可以通过其他客户的说法来证明这一点，他们说这太棒了。

That's one way to prove it.

这是证明这一点的一种方法。

If I had some independent third party data that proved whatever I was claiming, I could show that there too.

如果我有一些独立的第三方数据可以证明我的主张，我也可以证明这一点。

But a lot of times what we're doing is we're like, "Let me show you how this worked in a company that used our stuff.

但很多时候我们所做的就是，“让我向您展示这在使用我们产品的公司中是如何运作的。

So this is what the before looked like.

这就是之前的样子。

They did this thing, here's the after." And so customer case study is usually good way to do that, but there's usually a step called proof, which is, I showed you the value, now here's the proof that I can actually deliver on that value and it's not just me blowing smoke.

他们做了这件事，这是之后的事情。”因此，客户案例研究通常是做到这一点的好方法，但通常有一个称为证明的步骤，也就是说，我向您展示了价值，现在这是我实际上可以实现该价值的证据，而这不仅仅是我在胡言乱语。

April Dunford: And then the step after that then is this optional objection step where they say, "Oh yeah, sounds good, but IT is never going to go for it," or "Sounds good, but maybe it's going to be too expensive," or something.

April Dunford：接下来的步骤是可选的反对步骤，他们会说，“哦，是的，听起来不错，但 IT 永远不会这么做”，或者“听起来不错，但可能会太贵”，或者诸如此类。

And so you're going to handle that objection as best as you can.

所以你要尽可能地处理这个反对意见。

And then you finish with the ask, which is whatever the next step in your sales process is.

然后你完成询问，这就是销售流程的下一步。

So it's, "Hey, so what we have to do to get a deal cooking here, do we have to get IT involved?

所以，“嘿，那么我们必须做什么才能在这里达成交易，我们是否必须让 IT 参与进来？

Does IT need to see it?

IT 需要看到它吗？

Would you like us to come in and present with you with IT or do you want me to just help you work on some stuff for IT?" It's whatever your next step in the sales process is.

您希望我们进来向您展示 IT 方面的知识，还是希望我帮助您处理一些 IT 方面的工作？”这取决于您销售流程中的下一步是什么。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

So let me read through this just to have it also succinctly here in case people are taking notes or trying to remember the stuff.

因此，让我通读一下这篇文章，以便将其也简洁地放在这里，以防人们记笔记或试图记住这些内容。

So there's the setup, there's the follow through.

有了设置，就有了后续。

Within the setup, you have the insight, the alternative approaches, pros and cons, in the perfect world.

在设置中，您可以了解完美世界中的洞察力、替代方法、优点和缺点。

And then you introduce your product, talk about the differentiated value, share the proof of why it works, potentially handle objections, silent objections, and then the ask of what comes next.

然后你介绍你的产品，谈论差异化价值，分享它为何有效的证据，可能处理反对意见，无声反对，然后询问接下来会发生什么。

Lenny: In terms of knowing if this is working and if your differentiated value works or if your insight works, do you have kind of a heuristic of a success rate that feels right?

莱尼：在了解这是否有效、你的差异化价值是否有效或者你的洞察力是否有效方面，你是否有一种感觉正确的成功率启发式方法？

How often should this work for you to feel like "I think we have it?"

这应该多久能让你产生“我认为我们已经做到了”的感觉？

April Dunford: Well, so generally if the sales pitch isn't working, it's because the positioning was weak.

April Dunford：嗯，一般来说，如果销售宣传不起作用，那是因为定位薄弱。

April Dunford: And so companies that jumped straight to building the new sales pitch without going back and really making sure that they really nailed the differentiated value, who knows?

阿普丽尔·邓福德：因此，那些直接跳到建立新的销售宣传而没有回头并真正确保他们真正实现差异化价值的公司，谁知道呢？

Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't.

也许有效，也许无效。

And a lot of times it doesn't, I think.

我想，很多时候并非如此。

And so in the work I do with my clients, we go all the way back to the beginning.

因此，在我与客户合作的过程中，我们会一路回到起点。

So we go right back to let's work on the positioning first.

所以我们先回到定位上来。

Now, if I've got the smartest people from the company in the room and we've done enough deals that we are pretty knowledgeable about how customers buy and what they like and what they don't know.

现在，如果我的房间里有公司最聪明的人，并且我们已经完成了足够多的交易，那么我们就非常了解客户如何购买、他们喜欢什么以及他们不知道什么。

If I've got the senior executive team in the room and they've got a reasonable amount of customer experience, we can pretty much feel good that the positioning we come up with if we're following a process will be good.

如果我有高级管理团队在场，并且他们拥有相当数量的客户体验，那么我们可以非常满意，因为如果我们遵循流程，我们提出的定位将会很好。

April Dunford: Then it's just a matter of taking that positioning, mapping it to the sales pitch and then going to test it.

April Dunford：然后，只需采取该定位，将其映射到销售宣传，然后进行测试即可。

So I think there's a bunch of things in testing that are really important.

所以我认为测试中有很多事情非常重要。

So one is we absolutely need sales involved in building the pitch.

因此，一是我们绝对需要销售人员参与推销。

If we don't have sales involved in building the pitch, the pitch is never going to stick.

如果我们没有销售人员参与推销，那么推销就永远不会持久。

The rule with sales reps is even if they don't like their current pitch, they're comfortable with the current pitch and they know it and they've memorized it and they have a little joke they tell on slide three.

销售代表的规则是，即使他们不喜欢当前的推销，他们也会对当前的推销感到满意，他们知道并记住它，并且他们在第三张幻灯片上讲了一个小笑话。

So they're not going to give up the current pitch without a fight.

所以他们不会不战而屈人之兵。

So you got to get sales management involved in building a new pitch, and then I would never just build the new pitch and then heave it over the wall and say, "Good luck, Chuck." Because what'll happen is they'll come up with all kinds of excuses why they can't use this pitch.

因此，你必须让销售管理层参与构建新的推销，然后我绝不会只是构建新的推销，然后将其扔到墙上并说：“祝你好运，查克。”因为接下来他们会想出各种各样的借口来解释为什么他们不能使用这个宣传。

April Dunford: Instead, what you do is you take your best sales rep, your best one, and you bring your best sales rep over and you train them on the new pitch.

阿普丽尔·邓福德：相反，你所做的就是把你最好的销售代表，你最好的销售代表带过来，然后在新的方面对他们进行培训。

They got to learn it, they got to pitch it to you, pitch it to the head of sales.

他们必须学习它，他们必须向你推销它，向销售主管推销它。

We do a bunch of repetition on that, and then we have that rep test the pitch with qualified prospects.

我们对此进行了大量重复，然后我们让代表对合格的潜在客户进行测试。

So we don't go to existing customers.

所以我们不会去找现有客户。

They've already been polluted with the old positioning and the old pitch, and this needs to work with a qualified prospect, so let's do it in the way it was intended.

他们已经被旧的定位和旧的球场污染了，这需要与合格的潜在客户合作，所以让我们按照预期的方式来做。

We're going to take qualified prospects and work that new pitch with them.

我们将挑选合格的潜在客户并与他们一起进行新的宣传。

Usually what we'll do is a test period where after every pitch we'll huddle and say, "What worked?

通常我们会做一个测试期，每次推介后我们都会挤在一起说：“什么有效？

What didn't work?

什么不起作用？

Maybe that word is tripping people up.

也许这个词让人们绊倒了。

Maybe we need to move this slide from here to here," and so we'll tune it.

也许我们需要将这张幻灯片从这里移到这里，”所以我们会对其进行调整。

April Dunford: And then after we've done a bunch of pitches, one of two things happens.

April Dunford：在我们完成了一系列的推介之后，发生了以下两件事之一。

And so in this test structure, I am very much relying on the expertise of my best rep to know what's good.

因此，在这个测试结构中，我非常依赖我最好的代表的专业知识来知道什么是好的。

So after the best rep is comfortable with the pitch, done a bunch of pitches, re-twizzled it, at some point the rep will say, "Okay, I think we're done optimizing this pitch, and I'm not going back to the old pitch.

因此，在最好的代表对推介感到满意、完成了一堆推介、重新调整之后，在某个时候，代表会说：“好吧，我认为我们已经完成了这个推介的优化，我不会回到旧的推介。

I'm sticking with this pitch because I think this one works better." An experienced sales rep will know that, whether the pitch is better than the old pitch, if you give them the opportunity to feel comfortable with it, work with it a bit and pitch a bunch of new prospects with it.

我坚持这个方案，因为我认为这个方案效果更好。”经验丰富的销售代表会知道，无论推销是否比旧推销更好，如果你给他们机会，让他们感到舒服，进行一些工作，并用它来推销一堆新的潜在客户。

April Dunford: So if your best sales rep says, "Oh, this is way better than the old pitch.

阿普丽尔·邓福德：所以，如果你最好的销售代表说：“哦，这比旧的宣传要好得多。

I can just feel it from the way people react to it and the number of times we've been able to convert people over into actual opportunities from a first call." Then what you do is at that point I call that pass.

我可以从人们对此的反应方式以及我们在第一次通话中将人们转变为实际机会的次数中感受到这一点。”然后你要做的就是在这一点上我称之为通过。

So then we take that rep, we can film them doing the pitch for training, and then we can take that rep, go back to the rest of the sales team and have that rep sell everybody else on it.

因此，我们可以选择该代表，拍摄他们进行培训宣传的过程，然后我们可以选择该代表，回到销售团队的其他成员那里，让该代表向其他人推销。

So that rep goes back and says, "Listen up people, you're stupid if you're using that old pitch, which sucks.

所以那位代表回过头来说：“听着，如果你使用旧的说法，那你就是愚蠢的，这很糟糕。

This new pitch is way better.

这个新的音调要好得多。

Trust me, I'm the best rep on this whole team.

相信我，我是整个团队中最好的代表。

By the way here's the list of deals I have cooking in the pipeline that I got using this deck.

顺便说一句，这是我使用这套牌正在酝酿的交易清单。

You should go do it and I'm going to teach you how to do it."

你应该去做，我会教你怎么做。”

April Dunford: Now I got sales, teaching sales, teach and sales instead of marketing, sort of throwing something over the wall and crossing their fingers and saying, "Hey, I hope this works." What we should see is an immediate uplift in what happens after first call.

阿普丽尔·邓福德：现在我负责销售，教销售，教和销售而不是营销，有点像把东西扔到墙上然后交叉手指说，“嘿，我希望这能起作用。”我们应该看到的是第一次通话后情况立即改善。

So most of the time what that is we get a higher percentage of deals converting into opportunities after that first substantive calls.

因此，大多数时候，在第一次实质性通话之后，我们获得更高比例的交易转化为机会。

Sometimes depending on the quality of the pipeline we had coming in, we're actually disqualifying more.

有时，根据我们进入的管道的质量，我们实际上会取消更多的资格。

But sometimes that's a good thing.

但有时这是一件好事。

April Dunford: But what we should see is an immediate uptick.

April Dunford：但我们应该看到的是立即上升。

It's stuff coming into the pipeline.

这是正在进入管道的东西。

It's a neat trick to pull, especially right now when everybody's budgets are really tight and you're just trying to squeeze more juice out of the lemon.

这是一个巧妙的技巧，尤其是现在每个人的预算都非常紧张，而你只是想从柠檬中榨出更多汁液。

It's a really easy way to get some more juice out of the pipeline.

这是一种从管道中获取更多能量的非常简单的方法。

Just go in, tighten up your positioning, tighten up that sales pitch.

只要进去，加强你的定位，加强销售宣传。

And we can have instant impact with that because we can roll that out in a couple of weeks and start getting better deals flowing through the pipeline because these customers are understanding your value better, understanding why to pick you better.

我们可以立即产生影响，因为我们可以在几周内推出该计划，并开始通过渠道获得更好的交易，因为这些客户更好地了解您的价值，了解为什么更好地选择您。

It's just easy, low hanging fruit to do when the economy's bad.

当经济不景气时，这是很容易做到的事情。

Lenny: To give people a sense of maybe how easy that might be, how long would you suggest people spend on maybe tweaking their positioning and then also on this pilot, how much total time could it take to potentially significantly increase sales?

莱尼：为了让人们感觉到这可能是多么容易，你建议人们花多长时间来调整他们的定位，然后在这个试点上，总共需要多少时间才能显着增加销售额？

April Dunford: So in the customers that I work with, when we do the positioning stuff, the positioning stuff takes a week.

April Dunford：因此，在与我合作的客户中，当我们进行定位工作时，定位工作需要一周的时间。

We're beginning and we're done in a week.

我们正在开始，一周内就完成了。

We're all about speed on this thing.

我们在这件事上最注重的是速度。

We're trying to get the thing happening fast.

我们正在努力让事情尽快发生。

So we're in and out on the positioning in a week.

所以我们在一周内就完成了定位。

It might take you, it depends on the company, the bigger the company, the slower this is, but some big companies are actually quite fast, and if you're motivated, it shouldn't take long for us to take that pitch and make it real.

这可能需要你，这取决于公司，公司越大，速度越慢，但有些大公司实际上速度相当快，如果你有动力，我们应该不会花很长时间就能接受并实现它。

April Dunford: Then we got to find a rep, train the rep, and then how long it takes us to test it really depends on how much deal flow you've got.

April Dunford：然后我们必须找到一名代表，培训该代表，然后我们需要多长时间来测试它，这实际上取决于您有多少交易流量。

So if you're working on monster deals and you don't actually get that many qualified prospects to pitch, that might take a few weeks.

因此，如果您正在进行巨额交易，但实际上并没有那么多合格的潜在客户进行推介，那么这可能需要几周的时间。

But if you've got a lot of prospects coming through the door, and you can get through this fairly quickly.

但如果你有很多潜在客户进来，你就可以很快地度过这个难关。

So I've had companies do it start to finish.

所以我已经让公司从头到尾做这件事。

We got new pitch out the door and people using it in two weeks.

我们推出了新的宣传材料，人们在两周内就开始使用它。

That's about as fast as you can get it done.

这大约是您能完成的最快速度。

Most folks, I would say take about a month.

对于大多数人来说，我会说需要大约一个月的时间。

April Dunford: Sometimes you're like IBM and who knows when you get to it, right?

April Dunford：有时候你就像 IBM，谁知道你什么时候能做到，对吧？

But most folks could get through it if everybody's motivated, we can get it out and have it running a month.

但如果每个人都有动力，大多数人都可以完成它，我们可以把它拿出来并让它运行一个月。

Lenny: You mentioned marketing and earlier you said that marketing is involved in this process in some way.

莱尼：您提到了营销，之前您说过营销以某种方式参与了这个过程。

What's your advice to just how to involve marketing, where they fit in?

对于如何参与营销以及它们适合什么地方，您有什么建议？

April Dunford: Yeah, so usually marketing is going to end up being the stewards of the positioning once the positioning is done.

April Dunford：是的，一旦定位完成，通常营销人员最终会成为定位的管理者。

So they're going to end up being positioning police after this because a lot of the positioning stuff is going to take the form of marketing things.

因此，在此之后他们最终将部署警察，因为很多定位工作将采取营销的形式。

So they're invested in this.

所以他们对此进行了投资。

So when I was the VP marketing, I was the person that would instigate the positioning thing, let's get everybody together and work on the positioning.

因此，当我担任营销副总裁时，我是负责发起定位工作的人，让我们让每个人都聚集在一起进行定位。

And then I would usually be the person that is driving, getting the sales pitch figured out, but it's me and sales and product working together.

然后我通常会成为推动、弄清楚销售宣传的人，但这是我和销售和产品一起工作。

And then once the sales pitch is done, depending on the size of the organization and whether or not you have sales enablement or somebody inside sales that can babysit the pitch.

然后，一旦销售推介完成，这取决于组织的规模以及您是否有销售支持或销售内部人员可以照顾推介。

Usually me and the head of sales would work on, "Okay, this is the pitch and this is locked down and we're not actually going to change this pitch until something happens that requires us to change the positioning.

通常我和销售主管会说：“好吧，这就是推销，这是锁定的，我们实际上不会改变这个推销，直到发生需要我们改变定位的事情。

And then that's when we'll re-look at the pitch."

然后我们就会重新审视球场。”

April Dunford: So we would look at recertifying the reps every quarter on the pitch and all that kind of stuff.

April Dunford：所以我们会考虑在球场上每个季度重新认证代表以及诸如此类的事情。

And that would be generally, me in partnership with the head of sales.

一般来说，我会与销售主管合作。

But it depends on how you do it.

但这取决于你如何做。

I don't think it really matters who owns it.

我认为谁拥有它并不重要。

If you have a good product marketing organization, good product marketing organization generally is very concerned with the positioning and the pitch, and those two things sit in their purview, but depends on how you define it.

如果你有一个好的产品营销组织，那么好的产品营销组织通常非常关心定位和宣传，这两件事都在他们的职权范围内，但取决于你如何定义它。

I can't wait till you get Airbnb.

我迫不及待地想要你得到爱彼迎。

Tell us how this stuff works.

告诉我们这个东西是如何工作的。

They're different because they're a consumer, but companies are arranged in all different ways.

他们之所以不同，是因为他们是消费者，但公司的组织方式却各不相同。

So if you have product marketing, it looks one way.

因此，如果你有产品营销，它看起来是一种方式。

If you don't, it looks another way.

如果你不这样做，它看起来就是另一种方式。

Somebody's got to kind of be the owner of this thing though.

不过，总得有人成为这东西的所有者。

And so we have to decide who that's going to be.

所以我们必须决定那人是谁。

Lenny: Just a couple more questions.

莱尼：还有几个问题。

One is to motivate people to do this.

一是激励人们这样做。

What kind of impact have you seen at companies that invest this time and rethink the way they pitch?

您认为这次投资并重新思考其推销方式的公司产生了什么样的影响？

April Dunford: Well, so people don't like me to talk about revenue stuff.

艾普尔·邓福德：嗯，所以人们不喜欢我谈论收入问题。

Hugely what we've seen though is again, the immediate impact is felted sales, and everybody's very jazzed about that.

但我们再次看到的是，直接的影响是销售量，每个人都对此感到非常兴奋。

April Dunford: Impact is felt in sales, and everybody's very jazzed about that.

April Dunford：销售受到影响，每个人都对此感到非常兴奋。

Because sometimes what the worry is, is we've got this old positioning and they came in through the pipeline that way.

因为有时令人担心的是，我们有这种旧的定位，而他们是通过这种方式进入的。

So they were exposed to our marketing somewhere with this old positioning, and then we hit them with the new positioning with this sales pitch.

因此，他们在某个地方以旧的定位接触到我们的营销，然后我们通过这种销售宣传以新的定位来打击他们。

And aren't they going to be all like, "Oh, you moved my cheese." And usually it ends up not being a problem at all.

难道他们不会都会说，“哦，你动了我的奶酪。”通常它最终根本不是问题。

So usually what we see immediately is an uptick in what's happening in sales.

因此，通常我们立即看到的是销售量的上升。

And so I've had a couple of companies tell me they've doubled the number of deals that they're bringing from first sales call to opportunity just by tightening up the pitch and getting that going.

因此，有几家公司告诉我，他们通过加强宣传和推动，从第一次销售电话到机会的交易数量增加了一倍。

I think that's not unusual.

我认为这并不罕见。

I worked at a company where we did it in-house where I was the VP marketing, and we, within two quarters, had doubled the revenue just by tightening up the pitch.

我在一家公司工作，我们在内部做这件事，我是营销副总裁，在两个季度内，我们仅仅通过加强宣传就使收入翻了一番。

Just tighten it up.

只要把它拉紧就可以了。

April Dunford: It was a big shift in positioning, I'll tell you that.

April Dunford：我告诉你，这是定位上的一个重大转变。

Not small.

不小。

Most of the time, we're not doing that.

大多数时候，我们并没有这样做。

Most of the time, it's a tightening.

大多数时候，这是一种收紧。

We're not saying, "Oh, we used to be this and now we're this." Most of the time, it's a tightening, but usually the pitches are so bad.

我们不会说：“哦，我们过去是这样，现在又是这样。”大多数时候，这是一种紧张，但通常音高都很糟糕。

I'm telling you they're so bad that there's this low hanging fruit there that if we could improve it even a little bit, it actually has this big impact on how much stuff survives down the pipe.

我告诉你，它们太糟糕了，以至于有一个唾手可得的果实，如果我们能稍微改进一下，它实际上会对管道中的残留物产生很大的影响。

Lenny: And again, if folks want to go deep into the positioning step, your first book Obviously Awesome, is a great guide, and our first podcast episode goes through this.

莱尼：再说一次，如果人们想深入了解定位步骤，你的第一本书《显然很棒》是一本很好的指南，我们的第一集播客也讲述了这一点。

Plus you have a guest post in my newsletter where you give them a quick start guide.

另外，您在我的时事通讯中发表了一篇客座文章，其中您为他们提供了快速入门指南。

So there's so many tools to help you through this process.

因此，有很多工具可以帮助您完成此过程。

Lenny: The other thought I've had in the back of my mind as we've been chatting is a previous guest, Andy Raskin, has a different framework, feels similar, but I know they're different.

莱尼：当我们聊天时，我脑海中浮现的另一个想法是之前的一位嘉宾安迪·拉斯金（Andy Raskin），他有一个不同的框架，感觉很相似，但我知道他们是不同的。

His framework starts with a shift that's happened in the world, and then here's who's going to win in the shift, here's who's going to lose.

他的框架从世界上发生的转变开始，然后谁将在转变中获胜，谁将失败。

And then he goes into why this product is the best.

然后他解释了为什么这个产品是最好的。

What's your perspective on that approach versus this approach and the big differences?

您对这种方法和这种方法的巨大差异有何看法？

April Dunford: So the thing with that framework is I do think it works in certain conditions, but again, I think the conditions might be kind of edgy.

April Dunford：所以这个框架的问题是，我确实认为它在某些条件下有效，但同样，我认为这些条件可能有点前卫。

So there's a couple of things that I think are lacking in that structure for a sales pitch.

因此，我认为这种推销结构中缺少一些东西。

So the first one is there's actually no concept of differentiated value in that pitch, which for me is a giant miss.

所以第一个问题是，在这个宣传中实际上没有差异化价值的概念，这对我来说是一个巨大的失误。

So in that pitch, it assumes that new is inherently valuable and old is inherently bad, and sometimes that's true.

因此，在这种情况下，它假设新的本质上是有价值的，而旧的本质上是坏的，有时确实如此。

So sometimes there's just you versus the status quo and the status quo is some terrible old thing, some legacy thing or it's manual processes or something, and you're the only thing out there, then you can get away with that.

所以有时只有你与现状相对立，而现状是一些可怕的旧东西，一些遗留的东西，或者是手动流程之类的东西，而你是唯一的东西，那么你就可以摆脱困境。

But most of the time, we don't have that.

但大多数时候，我们没有这样的条件。

Most of the time, there's multiple new ways of doing something and you just can't say, "Well, I'm the only new and the rest of you are old and bad."

大多数时候，做某事有多种新方法，你不能说：“好吧，我是唯一的新人，而你们其他人又老又坏。”

April Dunford: So usually I've got to thread the needle.

艾普丽尔·邓福德：所以通常我必须穿针引线。

And so that's the first thing.

这是第一件事。

The second thing is that for most companies, if we really understood customer and decision, old is good, it's safe, it's not risky.

第二件事是，对于大多数公司来说，如果我们真正了解客户和决策，旧的就是好的，它是安全的，没有风险。

And does anybody ever say, "No, I'm not going to buy Salesforce.

是否有人说过：“不，我不会购买 Salesforce。

That's the old stuff,"?

那是老东西了，”？

I just don't think that happens.

我只是不认为这种情况会发生。

So in a lot of cases, I don't think you can rely, it's lazy to say, "Buy this because it's new and new is better." Most of the time, the customers are going to want to know, well, what's better about it?

所以在很多情况下，我认为你不能依赖，它懒得说，“买这个因为它是新的，新的更好。”大多数时候，客户会想知道，它有什么更好的地方？

Tell me what the value is that I can't get anywhere else.

告诉我有什么价值是我在其他地方无法得到的。

And you're going to have to get more specific than just saying, "Trust me, it's new and new is good." So that's the first thing.

你必须说得更具体，而不仅仅是说“相信我，它是新的，新的就是好的。”这是第一件事。

The second thing is this idea of starting with a trend.

第二件事是从趋势开始的想法。

On the surface it looks kind of good, but the problem is often the trend is not unique to you.

表面上看起来不错，但问题往往是这种趋势并不是你独有的。

So everybody else sees the trend too.

所以其他人也看到了这一趋势。

And so you are starting in a way that any of your competitors could start the same way.

因此，您的起步方式是您的任何竞争对手都可以采用的。

April Dunford: I did this for years where I was taught to do problem solution.

April Dunford：我这样做了很多年，我被教导如何解决问题。

We would define the problem like a trend.

我们将问题定义为趋势。

We'd say, "Well, the change in the world." I was selling databases and I'd say, "Change in the world, data is exponentially growing." It's like, no shit.

我们会说：“好吧，世界发生了变化。”我当时正在销售数据库，我会说：“世界在变化，数据呈指数级增长。”就像，没什么。

We all know that.

我们都知道这一点。

All of my competitors could say that, and all of my competitors deal with the trend in the same way.

我所有的竞争对手都可以这么说，而且我所有的竞争对手都以同样的方式应对这一趋势。

So unless you have a particularly unique take on the trend, well, then it's not the trend at all really, is it?

因此，除非你对这一趋势有特别独特的看法，否则它根本就不是趋势，不是吗？

It's your insight into the trend.

这是你对趋势的洞察。

So I don't think trend is that great because it's not always unique to you.

所以我不认为趋势有那么伟大，因为它并不总是对你来说是独一无二的。

And ideally what we want is something that we can say that none of our competitors can.

理想情况下，我们想要的是我们可以说我们的竞争对手都无法做到的东西。

And typically a trend is something outside of our control.

通常趋势是我们无法控制的。

It's out in the world and everybody else can see it too.

它在世界上，其他人也可以看到它。

April Dunford: So I don't think it's great.

艾普丽尔·邓福德：所以我认为这不太好。

I think that structure looks a lot like the structure we use in a VC pitch or an investor pitch because we're talking about much longer timelines and we can say, "Look, the world is really changing and 10 years from now there's going to be chaos and destruction and the only one standing is us and therefore there is no competition." And because the timeframes are longer and we're talking about disruption of an entire market, which is pretty theoretical, we can get away with a lot of that stuff in investor pitch.

我认为这种结构看起来很像我们在风险投资或投资者推介中使用的结构，因为我们谈论的是更长的时间表，我们可以说，“看，世界真的在变化，10年后将会出现混乱和破坏，唯一站立的就是我们，因此没有竞争。”因为时间框架更长，而且我们谈论的是整个市场的颠覆，这是相当理论上的，所以我们可以在投资者推销中摆脱很多这样的东西。

In fact, we want to go there in investor pitch.

事实上，我们希望通过投资者推介来实现这一目标。

Sales pitch is all about right now.

现在最重要的是推销。

Sales pitch is like, okay, I'm going to exchange my money for right now.

销售说辞就像是，好吧，我现在就要换钱。

You can't get too far into the future.

你不能走得太远。

Otherwise, all I'm doing is giving everybody a reason to delay, which they're likely to do anyway because they're indecisive about what they should do.

否则，我所做的就是给每个人一个推迟的理由，而他们无论如何都可能会这样做，因为他们对于自己应该做什么犹豫不决。

Lenny: I feel like I need a debate version of this podcast where people come on and-

莱尼：我觉得我需要这个播客的辩论版本，人们可以加入进来，然后-

April Dunford: I know, but here's the thing that I think people should think about when they're looking at all this stuff because it's terribly confusing if you're trying to figure this out.

April Dunford：我知道，但我认为人们在查看所有这些东西时应该考虑这一点，因为如果你试图弄清楚这一点，那会非常令人困惑。

The one thing I really dislike about the category creation folks is they say that's the only way that you can be successful.

我真正不喜欢品类创建人员的一件事是，他们说这是成功的唯一途径。

And in general, that's just not true about anything.

总的来说，这对任何事情来说都是不正确的。

There's lots of ways to do everything.

做任何事情都有很多方法。

And so I think people should mess around with stuff.

所以我认为人们应该乱搞一些东西。

And for any of these frameworks, I think they should look at it and see if it works for them and their situation.

对于任何这些框架，我认为他们应该看看它是否适合他们和他们的情况。

And maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.

也许会，也许不会。

April Dunford: And I think they should steal things from wherever they can steal it and figure out what works in their own situation.

艾普里尔·邓福德：我认为他们应该从任何可以偷东西的地方偷东西，并找出适合自己情况的方法。

My stuff, I like to think is a starting point, folks should use it as a starting point, but people shouldn't be slaves to it.

我喜欢认为我的东西是一个起点，人们应该使用它作为起点，但人们不应该成为它的奴隶。

There are lots of things that work at a market, and I think the only thing that we know for certain is that we can't say, "Well, this is the rule and it always works like this." If it was that easy, again, this wouldn't be so hard.

市场上有很多事情是有效的，我认为我们唯一确定的是我们不能说：“嗯，这就是规则，而且总是这样。”如果事情有那么容易的话，那么这件事就不会那么难了。

We wouldn't have podcasts and newsletters and all kinds of things trying to figure this stuff out.

我们不会有播客、时事通讯和各种试图解决这个问题的东西。

Lenny: Extremely true.

莱尼：非常正确。

Well, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

好了，至此，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

April Dunford: Oh yeah.

阿普丽尔·邓福德：哦，是的。

Lightning round.

闪电圆。

Oh gosh.

哦天哪。

It gives me stress.

这给我带来压力。

Okay.

好的。

Lenny: Okay, question number one.

莱尼：好的，第一个问题。

What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

April Dunford: Well, that's an easy question.

艾普里尔·邓福德：嗯，这是一个简单的问题。

So right now I'm really into Matt Dixon's work right now, which we've mentioned him a couple of times on the podcast, but Matt Dixon's new book called The JOLT Effect is really great just because there's all this data and the things that he discovered with that data, a lot of it go against what we would consider accepted sales wisdom.

所以现在我真的很喜欢马特·迪克森（Matt Dixon）的工作，我们在播客上提到过他几次，但马特·迪克森（Matt Dixon）的新书《震动效应》真的很棒，因为有所有这些数据以及他用这些数据发现的东西，其中很多都违背了我们认为公认的销售智慧。

And so I think that book is full of juicy nuggets and everybody should look at it.

所以我认为这本书充满了有趣的东西，每个人都应该看看它。

His previous book, The Challenger Sale, and there was a companion book to that called The Challenger Customer.

他的上一本书是《挑战者销售》，还有一本姊妹书《挑战者客户》。

Those were also excellent and based on a deep set of research.

这些也非常出色，并且基于一系列深入的研究。

And those books are older now, but what we see in The JOLT Effect is all the stuff holds true.

这些书现在已经很旧了，但我们在《震动效应》中看到的所有内容都是正确的。

All the stuff from The Challenger Sale has not changed in 10 years.

挑战者特卖的所有东西十年来都没有改变。

So I think those books together are really cool.

所以我认为这些书放在一起真的很酷。

April Dunford: The other one that I always recommend is the original book on positioning, which is the book by Ries and Trout Positioning: The Battle for Your Mind.

April Dunford：我一直推荐的另一本关于定位的原著是 Ries 和 Trout 合着的《Positioning: The Battle for Your Mind》。

I have my copy of it, is dogeared.

我有一份它的副本，已被折叠。

I probably read that book 100 times and I still see stuff in that book that I didn't see before.

我可能读了那本书 100 遍，但我仍然在那本书中看到了我以前没有看到的东西。

So I think if you really want to go deep on this positioning stuff, my book is the how to book.

所以我认为如果你真的想深入了解这个定位的东西，我的书是如何预订。

Their book is what is it in the first place book.

他们的书首先就是书。

And I think everybody that's interested in positioning should go read that.

我认为每个对定位感兴趣的人都应该去读一下。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

By the way, I have your first book somewhere behind me there.

顺便说一句，你的第一本书就在我身后的某个地方。

I don't know where it is, but it's there.

我不知道它在哪里，但它就在那里。

April Dunford: I got mine right here so I can do this gag.

艾普丽尔·邓福德：我的就在这儿，所以我可以做这个恶作剧。

There it is.

就在那里。

April Dunford: There's the new one, there's the old one.

艾普丽尔·邓福德：有新的，有旧的。

Lenny: The YouTube audience can see that trick that you've learned.

Lenny：YouTube 观众可以看到你学到的这个技巧。

Second question, what is a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed?

第二个问题，您最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

April Dunford: Oh man, I'm going to get in trouble for this.

艾普丽尔·邓福德：天哪，我会因此惹上麻烦的。

So you know Bong Joon-ho is the guy that did the movie Parasite?

那么你知道奉俊昊是电影《寄生虫》的导演吗？

April Dunford: So before Parasite, there was this book called, this movie called Snow Piercer.

艾普莉尔·邓福德：在《寄生虫》之前，有一本书叫《雪国列车》，这部电影叫《雪国列车》。

It's really old.

真的很老了。

I think it came out in-

我认为它出现在 -

Lenny: I've seen that.

莱尼：我已经看到了。

Is that with the train?

是和火车一起的吗？

April Dunford: So I love this movie so much.

艾普丽尔·邓福德：所以我非常喜欢这部电影。

So recently I went on a train trip with my dad and before I went to the train trip, we got talking about trains.

最近我和爸爸一起去火车旅行，在去火车旅行之前，我们谈论了火车。

And then we all had to go watch Snow Piercer again.

然后我们大家又得去看《雪国一枪手》了。

Like me and my daughter watching Snow Piercer.

就像我和我女儿看《雪国列车》一样。

We're really into this movie.

我们真的很喜欢这部电影。

And it's funny, when it came out, I was working at a startup and the CEO came and said, "Seen any good movies lately?" And I was like, "Oh man, you got to see this movie Snow Piercer." And he went on a first date with a woman and he came back the next day and he was so mad.

有趣的是，当它问世时，我正在一家初创公司工作，首席执行官走过来说：“最近看过什么好电影吗？”我当时想，“天啊，你一定要看这部电影《雪国列车》。”他和一个女人第一次约会，第二天他回来了，他非常生气。

He was not just kind of mad.

他不仅仅是有点生气。

He was really mad at me.

他真的很生我的气。

He was like, "That was the worst movie I've ever seen." I was like, "Dude, you should have told me you were going on a date.

他说：“这是我看过的最糟糕的电影。”我当时想，“伙计，你应该告诉我你要去约会。

I didn't know."

我不知道。”

Lenny: Yeah, that is my experience with that movie.

莱尼：是的，这就是我对那部电影的体验。

I did not enjoy it, but I think you have to go into it

我不喜欢它，但我认为你必须投入其中

April Dunford: It's polarizing.

艾普丽尔·邓福德：这是两极分化的。

You either think it's amazing or you're like, that was terrible.

你要么觉得这太棒了，要么觉得那太糟糕了。

What did I just watch?

我刚才看了什么？

Lenny: This explains your taste in movies.

莱尼：这说明了你对电影的品味。

We learned a lot about you, April.

我们对你了解了很多，阿普丽尔。

That movie is something else.

那部电影是另一回事。

April Dunford: Did you see Parasite?

艾普尔·邓福德：你看过《寄生虫》吗？

That was amazing.

太棒了。

Lenny: That was amazing.

莱尼：那真是太棒了。

Very different.

非常不同。

Not what I imagined.

不是我想象的那样。

I didn't realize it was the same person.

我没有意识到这是同一个人。

Lenny: All right.

莱尼：好吧。

Okay, cool.

好吧，酷。

That's two movies for people to watch.

这是两部电影供人们观看。

I'm curious how people think of Snow Piercer.

我很好奇人们如何看待《雪国列车》。

April Dunford: Be warned don't go on a date with this.

艾普丽尔·邓福德：警告不要带着这个去约会。

Lenny: Oh man, I still think about that movie sometimes.

莱尼：天哪，我有时仍然会想起那部电影。

Next question, what is a favorite interview question you like to ask people that you're interviewing?

下一个问题是，您最喜欢问正在面试的人的面试问题是什么？

Usually this is for when you're hiring, so whatever this comes up for you.

通常这是在您招聘时使用的，因此无论您遇到什么情况。

April Dunford: So back when I was running teams internally back in my VP marketing days, I felt like a lot of marketing folks came with a certain amount of bad habits, particularly startup marketing folks.

April Dunford：当我担任营销副总裁时，当我在内部管理团队时，我觉得很多营销人员都有一定的坏习惯，尤其是初创公司的营销人员。

It's a bit of the wild west in marketing.

这有点像营销领域的狂野西部。

And so sometimes they'd come in and you get into somebody new and they'd be really smart, but they learned something at the previous company that you're like, please never do that here.

所以有时他们会进来，你会遇到新的人，他们会非常聪明，但他们在以前的公司学到了一些你喜欢的东西，请永远不要在这里这样做。

It's not going to work here.

在这里是行不通的。

And so I developed a thing where I was just looking for attitude.

所以我开发了一个东西，我只是在寻找态度。

Were you enthusiastic?

你热情吗？

Are you super into what we're doing here?

你非常喜欢我们在这里做的事情吗？

And I can teach you pretty much anything.

我几乎可以教你任何东西。

The only thing I can't teach you is persuasive writing.

我唯一不能教你的是说服性写作。

And I think that's a learnable skill.

我认为这是一项可以学习的技能。

I think people can learn how to do persuasive writing.

我认为人们可以学习如何进行有说服力的写作。

April Dunford: I just don't have time to teach it to you myself.

April Dunford：我只是没有时间亲自教你。

And so I used to give people a writing test, so I'd say, "Look, think of something you bought recently and write me two paragraphs and just sell me on it." And I used to love that test because people could either do it or they can't.

所以我过去常常给人们一个写作测试，所以我会说，“看，想想你最近买的东西，给我写两段话，然后卖给我。”我曾经很喜欢这项测试，因为人们要么可以做，要么不能做。

And there's just so much stuff we end up doing in product marketing and marketing that involves a little bit of writing that it's kind of a foundational skill.

我们最终在产品营销和营销中做了很多事情，其中​​涉及一点写作，这是一项基本技能。

And if you don't have that, that was the one thing I couldn't teach you.

如果你不具备这一点，那就是我无法教你的一件事。

Lenny: Wow, that is fascinating.

莱尼：哇，这太令人着迷了。

I've never heard of that as an interview question.

我从来没有听说过这是一个面试问题。

And I love it.

我喜欢它。

I feel like product managers-

我觉得自己像产品经理——

April Dunford: I stole it from a company that made me do it before I got hired, and I was like, this is a really smart thing.

April Dunford：我从一家公司那里偷来了它，这家公司让我在受聘之前就这么做了，我当时想，这真是一件聪明的事情。

I'm stealing it.

我正在偷它。

My thing was I got anxiety and I couldn't decide what product to write about, and I had literally just bought a new pair of running shoes.

我的事情是我感到焦虑，我无法决定要写什么产品，而且我实际上刚刚买了一双新跑鞋。

So I wrote two paragraphs about my new Brooks distance running shoes.

所以我写了两段关于我的新布鲁克斯长跑鞋的文章。

But it was good.

但这很好。

I got the job.

我得到了这份工作。

Lenny: It is an excellent segue to our next question, which is, is there a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really like?

Lenny：这是我们下一个问题的一个很好的延续，即，您最近发现了您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？

April Dunford: Right now I'm kind of into, I don't even know how to describe this category of things, but things that are kind of low tech but are awesome.

April Dunford：现在我有点喜欢，我什至不知道如何描述这类东西，但是技术含量低但很棒的东西。

And so one of the category of things that I really love right now is I'm really into fountain pens.

所以我现在真正喜欢的一件事就是我真的很喜欢钢笔。

I don't know if you've ever written with a fountain pen.

不知道你用过钢笔写过字吗？

Lenny: I haven't, but I know what they are.

莱尼：我没有，但我知道它们是什么。

April Dunford: And so there's this company, Lamy, they're based in Germany, and they make the world's greatest fountain pens.

April Dunford：Lamy 这家公司位于德国，生产世界上最好的钢笔。

They're beautiful, they're amazing.

他们很美丽，他们很棒。

Some of them are really expensive.

其中一些确实很贵。

If you want to spend a lot of money on a pen, you can.

如果你想花很多钱买一支笔，你可以。

But they have this one called the AL-Star, which is not an expensive pen.

但他们有一款叫做 AL-Star 的钢笔，这并不是一支昂贵的钢笔。

It's 20, $30.

20、30 美元。

It may be expensive for a pen, but it's not so much money that you wouldn't feel bad if you lost it.

一支笔可能很贵，但也不至于丢了也不会难过。

So Lamy AL-Star.

所以拉米 AL-Star。

That's my great product lately.

这是我最近很棒的产品。

I don't have one right here.

我这里没有。

I should, it'd be a great prop to pick it up, but I actually don't have my bag here and it's in my bag.

我应该，捡起它会是一个很好的道具，但实际上我的包没有在这里，它在我的包里。

But Lamy AL-Star.

但拉米 AL-Star。

You Google it.

你谷歌一下。

These are beautiful pens.

这些都是漂亮的钢笔。

And then if you haven't written with a fountain pen, it takes a minute to get used to it, but then it's like, gosh, it just feels great.

如果你还没有用钢笔写字，你需要花一分钟的时间来适应它，但随后你会觉得，天哪，感觉太棒了。

You'll never write with a ballpoint pen again.

你再也不会用圆珠笔写字了。

Lenny: I was going to ask, is it the feel of the writing that you really enjoy about it?

莱尼：我想问的是，你真正喜欢的是写作的感觉吗？

April Dunford: Feel.

阿普丽尔·邓福德：感觉。

Totally different.

完全不同。

Yeah.

是的。

Amazing.

惊人的。

Lenny: I use Muji pens.

莱尼：我用无印良品钢笔。

I don't know if you know these pens.

不知道你是否认识这些笔。

April Dunford: Oh yeah, these are actually really good.

阿普丽尔·邓福德：哦，是的，这些实际上非常好。

They're like roller ball pens, roller ball pen, very good, but not as good as the fountain pen.

它们就像滚珠笔，滚珠笔，很好，但不如钢笔。

Lenny: Then do you have to dip it in ink and stuff?

莱尼：那你需要把它浸在墨水之类的东西里吗？

How does that work?

这是如何运作的？

April Dunford: No. You actually, they either come with a little cartridge that you stick in or if you feel bad about the environment, you don't want to be throwing out cartridges all the time, there's a refillable cartridge, so you basically just stick another thing and it sucks it up and yeah, you don't dip it in ink.

April Dunford：不。事实上，他们要么附带一个小墨盒，你可以把它塞进去，或者如果你对环境感觉不好，你不想一直扔掉墨盒，有一个可再填充的墨盒，所以你基本上只需粘贴另一个东西，它就会把它吸起来，是的，你不用把它浸入墨水中。

That would be crazy.

那太疯狂了。

I can't take that on the airplane, man.

我不能把它带上飞机，伙计。

Lenny: Confiscate your ink.

莱尼：没收你的墨水。

All right, questions get a little more challenging potentially or really easy.

好吧，问题可能会变得更具挑战性或非常简单。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you like to repeat to yourself, you like to share with people, that you find useful to come back to?

你有没有最喜欢的人生格言，你喜欢对自己重复，你喜欢与人分享，你觉得回顾它很有用？

April Dunford: My thing lately is, and maybe this is just an old person thing, but my thing lately is nothing's a big deal.

April Dunford：我最近的事情是，也许这只是一个老人的事情，但我最近的事情没什么大不了的。

Nothing's a big deal, nothing's a big deal.

没什么大不了的，没什么大不了的。

And so you'll have stuff that you think is a really big deal, positive or negative, and you'll be like, wow, if this thing happened, it'd be so great, and then it happens and you're like, yeah, it's pretty great, but things are good otherwise, or it'll be the opposite.

所以你会遇到一些你认为非常重要的事情，无论是积极的还是消极的，你会想，哇，如果这件事发生了，那就太棒了，然后它发生了，你会想，是的，这非常棒，但否则事情就很好，否则就会相反。

Like, oh, if this thing happened, it'd be so bad.

就像，哦，如果这件事发生了，那就太糟糕了。

Then it happens and you're like, that wasn't that bad.

然后事情发生了，你会想，那并没有那么糟糕。

And so I don't know if this is good or bad, but lately I'm in this zone of I'm in this kind of chill zone where I'm like, nothing's a big deal, man.

所以我不知道这是好是坏，但最近我正处于这种寒冷的区域，我想，没什么大不了的，伙计。

Everything's cool.

一切都很酷。

Lenny: That super resonates.

莱尼：这引起了超级共鸣。

And as much as you say that to yourself, it's still hard to convince yourself of that sometimes.

尽管你对自己这么说，但有时仍然很难说服自己这一点。

But that is a really good motto.

但这确实是一个很好的座右铭。

I'm going to steal that myself.

我要亲自去偷那个。

I kind of say that to myself often in different way.

我经常以不同的方式对自己说这句话。

Lenny: What is the most valuable lesson your mom or your dad taught you?

莱尼：你妈妈或你爸爸教给你的最有价值的一课是什么？

April Dunford: Yeah, it is funny because it's a little bit related to that.

April Dunford：是的，这很有趣，因为它与此有点相关。

So my dad ran a business, so I grew up in a really small town and my dad and it's cottage country in Canada.

我的父亲经营一家企业，所以我在一个非常小的城镇长大，而我的父亲则在加拿大的乡村乡村长大。

And so my dad ran the local toys for tourists, like boats and motorcycles and ATVs and that sort of thing.

所以我爸爸为游客经营当地的玩具，比如船、摩托车和全地形车之类的。

And he ran that business for years and years and he sold it a few years back when he retired.

他经营这家公司很多年，几年前退休时就把它卖掉了。

But it's a neat thing to grow up in entrepreneurial family because you kind of see this highs and lows.

但在创业家庭中长大是一件好事，因为你可以看到这种高潮和低谷。

The business is really good.

生意确实不错。

Then the business was really bad and then we were all broke and then the business was good and we were not broke.

然后生意真的很糟糕，然后我们都破产了，然后生意很好，我们没有破产。

So there was this thing, and my dad used to always kind of have this attitude of you just got to grind it out.

所以就有了这件事，我父亲过去总是有这样的态度：你必须把它磨出来。

April Dunford: You're just going to grind it out.

艾普丽尔·邓福德：你只需要把它磨掉就可以了。

There's going to be good stuff, there's going to be bad stuff, but the key is to just keep going, just keep going.

会有好的事情，也会有坏的事情，但关键是继续前进，继续前进。

And so he ran that business for whatever, 30, 40 years.

就这样，他经营了这家公司30年、40年。

I don't know.

我不知道。

His motto is the home of fun since '71.

他的座右铭是自 71 年以来的乐趣之家。

So he started it in '71.

所以他在 71 年就开始了。

I think he sold it three, four years ago.

我想他三四年前就卖掉了。

So a long time.

这么长时间了。

April Dunford: It all worked out good in the end.

艾普丽尔·邓福德：最终一切都进展顺利。

And so I don't know, I think there's something cool about growing up in a family where you can see the highs and lows and then again be like everything's we're just grinding it out over here.

所以我不知道，我认为在一个家庭中长大是一件很酷的事情，你可以看到高潮和低谷，然后又像一切都是我们在这里磨练出来的。

Nothing's a big deal.

没什么大不了的。

Lenny: It's clear where all that comes from now.

莱尼：现在很清楚这一切从何而来。

Lenny: Final question.

莱尼：最后一个问题。

You do a lot of traveling, you do a lot of speaking, you go to a bunch of cities.

你做了很多旅行，做了很多演讲，去了很多城市。

I'm curious just what is your favorite either city that you go to that maybe people may not know about or venue that you speak at?

我很好奇您最喜欢去的哪个城市（可能人们可能不知道）或您演讲的地点是什么？

April Dunford: It's such a cliche, but I love Paris.

艾普丽尔·邓福德：这真是陈词滥调，但我喜欢巴黎。

I just love it.

我就是喜欢它。

But for me, Paris is like a particular vibe.

但对我来说，巴黎就像一种特殊的氛围。

So when I was in university, I did an exchange when I was in engineering and I did third year engineering at a school just outside of Paris.

因此，当我上大学时，我在工程专业进行了交流，并在巴黎郊外的一所学校攻读了三年级的工程专业。

And so I spent the whole year there, learned a bit of French.

所以我在那里度过了一整年，学了一点法语。

My French was pretty good at the end.

最后我的法语非常好。

My French is really bad now.

我的法语现在真的很糟糕。

So I kind of get Paris.

所以我有点了解巴黎。

I like Paris.

我喜欢巴黎。

And so when I go to Paris, I just have the best time.

所以当我去巴黎时，我度过了最美好的时光。

I have my set of restaurants I want to go to.

我有一组我想去的餐馆。

I have my handful of places I want to go shopping.

我有几个想去购物的地方。

I put my butt down in a cafe, look at the beautiful people, drink my nice coffee.

我在咖啡馆里坐下来，看看美丽的人们，喝我的好咖啡。

I just really dig the whole vibe of Paris and people are starting to know that now.

我真的很喜欢巴黎的整体氛围，人们现在开始知道这一点。

So French companies will call me and they'll say, "Do we get a Paris discount?

所以法国公司会给我打电话，他们会说：“我们在巴黎有折扣吗？

We hear you like coming here." And I go, "Okay."

我们听说你喜欢来这里。”我说：“好吧。”

April Dunford: There's a great product management conference there called La Product Conference run by these folks at Tega, shout out to Tega.

April Dunford：那里有一个很棒的产品管理会议，名为 La Product Conference，由 Tega 的人员举办，向 Tega 致敬。

So I've been there a number of times for their conferences and they do an amazing job and the venue is really great.

所以我去过那里很多次他们的会议，他们做得非常出色，场地也很棒。

It changes around.

它周围发生了变化。

But last year, the last time I went there, which was two years ago, it was at an old theater in .

但去年，我上次去那里，也就是两年前，是在 的一家老剧院。

Absolutely beautiful.

绝对美丽。

And that was a pretty great venue in a great city with a great conference.

这是一个在一座伟大的城市举办的很棒的会议的绝佳场所。

So yeah, shout out to French people.

所以，是的，向法国人民大声喊叫。

Lenny: Oh man.

莱尼：天啊。

That sounds dreamy.

听起来很梦幻。

Paris.

巴黎。

I see how that could be a favorite.

我明白这怎么会成为人们的最爱。

April, I think we accomplished everything we were hoping to accomplish.

四月，我想我们已经完成了我们希望完成的一切。

I think everyone that has listened to this podcast is going to be better at pitching and selling.

我认为每个听过这个播客的人都会更擅长推销和销售。

It feels like even if they take one element of this framework, say starting with an insight or focusing on different value will make them better.

感觉即使他们采用了这个框架的一个元素，比如从洞察力开始或关注不同的价值也会让他们变得更好。

And so I'm proud of us.

所以我为我们感到自豪。

Thank you so much for doing this.

非常感谢您这样做。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想要联系您，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

April Dunford: So where can people find me?

艾普丽尔·邓福德：那么人们在哪里可以找到我呢？

I'm aprildunford.com.

我是 aprildunford.com。

The only social media I'm doing these days is LinkedIn.

这些天我唯一使用的社交媒体是 LinkedIn。

I'm a bit social media-ed out.

我对社交媒体有点厌倦了。

I'm experimenting a little on threads and Instagram, but LinkedIn is a good place to find me if you just want low lift way to follow my stuff.

我正在线程和 Instagram 上进行一些尝试，但如果您只是想以简单的方式关注我的内容，那么 LinkedIn 是找到我的好地方。

But I'm doing all the things now, Lenny, I got a podcast, it's called Positioning with April Dunford.

但我现在正在做所有的事情，莱尼，我有一个播客，叫做《与阿普里尔·邓福德一起定位》。

I got a newsletter that's also called Positioning.

我收到一份时事通讯，也称为“定位”。

You can find that if you go to, it's on Substacks, you can find it there, otherwise aprildunford.com/books and you can sign up there.

你会发现，如果你去的话，它就在 Substacks 上，你可以在那里找到它，否则你可以在 aprildunford.com/books 上注册。

But those are the big things.

但这些都是大事。

And then there's the books, obviously, if you want to learn more about this stuff.

显然，如果你想了解更多关于这方面的知识，还有书籍。

Everything I know is in the book.

我所知道的一切都在书里。

There isn't stuff that I know that isn't in the book to be honest.

老实说，我所知道的所有内容都在书中。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

And then how can listeners be useful to you?

那么听众如何对你有用呢？

Just check out those things.

只要检查一下这些事情就可以了。

April Dunford: I guess so.

阿普丽尔·邓福德：我想是的。

You know what?

你知道吗？

I'm in this phase.

我正处于这个阶段。

I think, again, I think it's an old age thing.

我想，我再次认为这是一个老年问题。

I am in this kind of philosophical phase where I'm not going to be doing this forever.

我正处于这种哲学阶段，我不会永远这样做。

And what I'm trying to do right now is get everything that's useful out of my head and out in the world before I'm done.

我现在想做的就是在完成之前将所有有用的东西从我的脑海中取出并放到世界上。

And so right now I'm very focused on delivering useful things for other people.

所以现在我非常专注于为其他人提供有用的东西。

I didn't think I needed to write a book about sales pitches, but then I got the idea in my head, everybody's sales pitch is so bad and there isn't a book on how to build a sales pitch.

我认为我不需要写一本关于推销的书，但后来我脑子里有了这个想法，每个人的推销都太糟糕了，而且没有一本关于如何建立推销的书。

And I'm not saying mine's the world's greatest thing, but it's better than nothing.

我并不是说我的东西是世界上最伟大的东西，但它总比没有好。

So this is what I'm trying to do right now.

这就是我现在正在尝试做的事情。

I'm trying to be useful to other people because pretty soon I'm not going to be doing anything, I think is the idea.

我正在努力对其他人有用，因为很快我就不会做任何事情，我想这就是我的想法。

Lenny: Arnold Schwarzenegger's new book is called Be Useful.

莱尼：阿诺·施瓦辛格的新书叫《Be Useful》。

And I feel like that's the perfect description of how to be successful and especially in the work that we do, just helping people.

我觉得这是对如何取得成功的完美描述，尤其是在我们所做的工作中，就是帮助人们。

But I keep coming back to that.

但我不断地回到这一点。

It's just be useful.

只要有用就行了

April Dunford: I think this is a really important thing.

阿普丽尔·邓福德：我认为这是一件非常重要的事情。

When I wrote the first book, people started writing back to me and saying, "Oh, your book was so great." And my reflex action was to say, "Oh, I'm glad you enjoyed it." But then I stumped myself and I was like, you know what?

当我写第一本书时，人们开始给我回信说：“哦，你的书太棒了。”我的本能反应就是说：“哦，我很高兴你喜欢它。”但后来我难住了自己，我想，你知道吗？

I don't actually care if you enjoyed it.

我其实并不关心你是否喜欢它。

This isn't entertainment.

这不是娱乐。

I'm actually trying to create something that's useful.

我实际上正在尝试创造一些有用的东西。

So what I really want is for people to read this stuff and come back and say, "That was useful.

所以我真正想让人们读完这些东西后回来说：“这很有用。

We were struggling with this thing, and that unlocked something for me and that was useful." And that's what I'm trying to do right now.

我们一直在努力解决这个问题，这为我开启了一些东西，这很有用。”这就是我现在正在努力做的事情。

Lenny: April, thank you so much for being here.

莱尼：阿普尔，非常感谢你来到这里。

This was amazing.

这太棒了。

April Dunford: Thanks so much.

阿普丽尔·邓福德：非常感谢。

It's always good to be here.

来到这里总是好的。

Lenny: Always good to have you here.

莱尼：很高兴你能来到这里。

And we might do a V3 when you do a third book if you ever-

当你写第三本书时，我们可能会写 V3，如果你——

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

All right.

好的。

Well, bye everyone.

好吧，大家再见。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。