'Building Lovable: $10M ARR in 60 days with 15 people | Anton Osika (CEO and co-founder)'
Anton Osika: ...
安东·奥西卡：……
Lovable is your personal AI software engineer.
Lovable是您的私人人工智能软件工程师。
You describe an idea and then you get a fully working product.
你描述一个想法，然后你就会得到一个完全可用的产品。
The reason is to enable those who have had such a hard time finding people who are good at creating software that's been their absolute bottleneck and let them take their ideas and their dreams into reality.
原因是让那些一直难以找到擅长创建软件的人（这一直是他们的绝对瓶颈）的人能够将他们的想法和梦想变成现实。
Lenny Rachitsky: You guys hit 4 million ARR in the first four weeks.
Lenny Rachitsky：你们在前四个星期就达到了 400 万的 ARR。
You hit 10 million ARR in the first two months with just 15 people.
仅用 15 名员工，您在前两个月就实现了 1000 万 ARR。
You're the fastest growing startup in all of Europe.
你们是全欧洲发展最快的初创公司。
How did you decide on Lovable is the name.
你是如何决定取“可爱”这个名字的？
It's so sweet.
太甜了。
Anton Osika: The best word for a great product is that it's lovable.
Anton Osika：对伟大产品最好的形容词就是它的可爱。
A lot of jargon that I like to use to emphasize what we should be striving for is building a minimum lovable product and then building a lovable product and then building an absolutely lovable product.
我喜欢用很多行话来强调我们应该努力的目标是构建一个最小的可爱产品，然后构建一个可爱的产品，然后构建一个绝对可爱的产品。
So I took that jargon with me in the company name.
所以我在公司名称中保留了这些行话。
Lenny Rachitsky: People would wonder just what jobs will be more important, what skills will be less important?
Lenny Rachitsky：人们会想知道哪些工作会更重要，哪些技能会不太重要？
Anton Osika: Doing a bit of everything.
Anton Osika：什么都做一点。
Being a generalist, I think much more important than it used to be.
作为一名多面手，我认为比以前重要得多。
If I'm putting together a product team today, I would really obsess about getting as many skill sets as possible for each person I hire.
如果我今天要组建一个产品团队，我真的会痴迷于为我雇用的每个人获得尽可能多的技能。
Lenny Rachitsky: What have you done that has allowed you to grow this fast with so few people?
Lenny Rachitsky：你做了什么让你在这么少的人的情况下发展得这么快？
Anton Osika: People love the product.
Anton Osika：人们喜欢这个产品。
That's the driver of the growth.
这是增长的动力。
Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Anton O-C-K.
Lenny Rachitsky：今天，我的客人是 Anton O-C-K。
Anton is co-founder and CEO of Lovable, which is essentially an AI engineer that takes an English prompt and codes a product for you in minutes.
安东 (Anton) 是 Lovable 的联合创始人兼首席执行官，该公司本质上是一名人工智能工程师，可以根据英语提示在几分钟内为你编写产品代码。
You can then talk to it, iterate on the product, and then launch it to the world.
然后，您可以与它交谈，迭代产品，然后将其推向世界。
It's one of the fastest growing products in history.
它是历史上增长最快的产品之一。
The fastest growing startup in Europe ever, and as Anton describes, their goal for Lovable is for it to be the last piece of software that anybody has to write because it'll be able to create all future products for us.
这是欧洲有史以来发展最快的初创公司，正如 Anton 所描述的，他们对 Lovable 的目标是让它成为任何人都必须编写的最后一个软件，因为它将能够为我们创建所有未来的产品。
They launched just a few months ago in the first four weeks, hit 4 million ARR in the first two months across 10 million ARR, all with just 15 people.
他们在几个月前推出，前 4 周内就达到了 400 万的 ARR，在前两个月就达到了 1000 万的 ARR，而且只有 15 名员工。
Absurd.
荒诞。
In our conversation, we covered a lot of ground, including a live demo of Lovable, how their team operates, how they hire, what has most enabled their team to scale this quickly with so few people, pro tips for using Lovable, how it all started, how he recommends you build product teams going forward with tools like this existing, what skills will matter more and less going forward?
在我们的谈话中，我们讨论了很多内容，包括 Lovable 的现场演示、他们的团队如何运作、他们如何招聘、是什么让他们的团队能够在如此少的人的情况下快速扩展规模、使用 Lovable 的专业技巧、这一切是如何开始的、他如何建议你使用现有的工具建立产品团队、未来哪些技能将变得更加重要和不那么重要？
Lenny Rachitsky: Plus how to think about Lovable versus competitors and so much more.
Lenny Rachitsky：以及如何考虑 Lovable 与竞争对手等等。
If you're trying to wrap your head around how product building will change with the rise of AI tools, this episode is a must watch.
如果您想了解产品构建将如何随着人工智能工具的兴起而改变，那么这一集是必看的。
If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。
Also, if you become a yearly subscriber of my newsletter, you now get a year free of Perplexity and Notion and Superhuman and Linear and Granola.
另外，如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您现在可以享受一年免费的《困惑》、《概念》、《超人》、《线性》和《格兰诺拉麦片》。
Check it out at Lenny'snewsletter.com.
请访问 Lenny'snewsletter.com 进行查看。
With that, I bring you Anton, O-C-K.
接下来，我为您带来安东，O-C-K。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Cinch the customer Communications Cloud.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由客户 Communications Cloud Cinch 为您带来。
Here's the thing about digital customer communications.
这是关于数字客户沟通的事情。
Whether you're sending marketing campaigns, verification codes or account alerts, you need them to reach users reliably.
无论您是发送营销活动、验证码还是帐户提醒，您都需要它们可靠地联系用户。
That's where Cinch comes in.
这就是辛奇的用武之地。
Over 150,000 businesses, including eight of the top 10 largest tech companies globally use Cinch's API to build messaging, email and calling into their products.
超过 150,000 家企业（包括全球十大科技公司中的八家）使用 Cinch 的 API 在其产品中构建消息传递、电子邮件和通话。
And there's something big happening in messaging that product teams need to know about.
产品团队需要了解消息传递中正在发生的重大事件。
Rich Communication Services or RCS, think of RCS as SMS 2.0.
丰富的通信服务或 RCS，将 RCS 视为 SMS 2.0。
Instead of getting texts from a random number, your users will see your verified company name and logo without needing to download anything new.
您的用户将看到您经过验证的公司名称和徽标，而不是从随机数字中获取文本，而无需下载任何新内容。
It's a more secure and branded experience, plus you get features like interactive carousels and suggested replies, and here's why this matters.
这是一种更安全、更品牌化的体验，此外，您还可以获得交互式轮播和建议回复等功能，这就是为什么这很重要。
US carriers are starting to adopt RCS.
美国运营商开始采用 RCS。
Cinch is already helping Nature Brands send RCS messages around the world and they're helping Lenny's podcast listeners get registered first before the rush hits the US market.
Cinch 已经在帮助 Nature Brands 在世界各地发送 RCS 消息，并且他们正在帮助 Lenny 的播客听众在热潮冲击美国市场之前首先注册。
Learn more at get started at Cinch.com slash Lenny.
了解更多信息，请访问 Cinch.com 斜线 Lenny。
That's S-I-N-C-H dot com slash Lenny.
这是 S-I-N-C-H . com 斜线 Lenny。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Persona, the adaptable identity platform that helps businesses fight fraud, meet compliance requirements, and build trust.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Persona 为您带来，Persona 是一个适应性强的身份平台，可帮助企业打击欺诈、满足合规性要求并建立信任。
While you're listening to this right now, how do you know that you're really listening to me, Lenny?
当你现在正在听这个时，你怎么知道你真的在听我说话，莱尼？
These days, it's easier than ever for fraudsters to steal PII, faces and identities.
如今，欺诈者比以往任何时候都更容易窃取 PII、面孔和身份。
That's where Persona comes in.
这就是角色发挥作用的地方。
Persona helps leading companies like LinkedIn, Etsy, and Twilio securely verify individuals and businesses across the world.
Persona 帮助 LinkedIn、Etsy 和 Twilio 等领先公司安全地验证世界各地的个人和企业。
What sets Persona apart is its configurability.
Persona 的独特之处在于它的可配置性。
Every company has different needs depending on its industry, use cases, risk tolerance and user demographics.
每家公司根据其行业、用例、风险承受能力和用户人口统计数据都有不同的需求。
That's why Persona offers flexible building blocks that allow you to build tailored collection and verification flows that maximize conversion while minimizing risks.
这就是为什么 Persona 提供灵活的构建模块，使您能够构建定制的收集和验证流程，从而最大限度地提高转化率，同时最大限度地降低风险。
Plus Persona's orchestration tools, automate your identity process so that you can fight rapidly shifting fraud and meet new waves of regulation.
再加上 Persona 的编排工具，可以自动化您的身份流程，以便您能够对抗快速变化的欺诈行为并满足新一波的监管要求。
Whether you're a startup or an enterprise business, Persona has a plan for you.
无论您是初创公司还是大型企业，Persona 都有适合您的计划。
Learn more at withpersona.com slash Lenny.
欲了解更多信息，请访问 withpersona.com 斜线 Lenny。
Again, that's with P-E-R-S-O-N-A dot com slash Lenny.
再说一遍，这是 P-E-R-S-O-N-A . com 斜杠莱尼。
Anton, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.
安东，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。
Anton Osika: It's a pleasure to talk to you, Lenny, great to be here.
Anton Osika：很高兴与你交谈，Lenny，很高兴来到这里。
Lenny Rachitsky: I don't know how you have time to do this podcast.
Lenny Rachitsky：我不知道你怎么有时间做这个播客。
Your life must be insane these days with the pace at which you guys are scaling, just how much is changing in AI every day.
这些天你们的生活一定很疯狂，你们的生活节奏越来越快，人工智能每天都在发生多大的变化。
So I just extra appreciate you making time for this.
所以我非常感谢您为此抽出时间。
I think you said it's 10:30, your time, is when we're doing this.
我想你说过现在是 10:30，你的时间，就是我们做这件事的时候。
Anton Osika: I'm a bit tired, yes.
Anton Osika：是的，我有点累。
Mostly from the crazy pace of everything, but yes.
主要是因为一切的疯狂节奏，但是是的。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is going to be an invigorating conversation and you're not going to be able to sleep.
Lenny Rachitsky：这将是一次令人振奋的谈话，你将无法入睡。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so for folks that are maybe a little bit familiar with Lovable or not at all familiar, what is Lovable?
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，对于那些可能有点熟悉 Lovable 或根本不熟悉的人来说，Lovable 是什么？
What's the simplest way to understand it?
最简单的理解方法是什么？
Anton Osika: I'd say Lovable is your personal AI software engineer.
Anton Osika：我想说 Lovable 是你的私人人工智能软件工程师。
You describe an idea and then you get a fully working product from the AI.
你描述一个想法，然后你就可以从人工智能那里得到一个完全可用的产品。
And what this means is that entrepreneurs actually today, they turn their ideas into real businesses.
这意味着今天的企业家实际上将他们的想法变成了真正的企业。
We have a lot of designers and product managers that create the first version of their product ideas to show to the teams, and some of them become founders because of the empowerment from this, but also developers themselves, they actually writing code or creating products much faster.
我们有很多设计师和产品经理，他们创建了他们产品创意的第一个版本来展示给团队，其中一些人因为这种授权而成为创始人，但开发人员自己也一样，他们实际上更快地编写代码或创建产品。
The reason, it's pretty obvious for me, but I'll spell it out, the reason why we're doing Lovable is that I don't know about your mom, but my mom doesn't write code and-
原因，对我来说很明显，但我会说清楚，我们做 Lovable 的原因是我不了解你妈妈，但我妈妈不会写代码，而且——
Anton Osika: ...
安东·奥西卡：……
almost all my friends throughout my life reached out for help.
我一生中几乎所有的朋友都向我寻求帮助。
Like, "Anton, I need to build something.
就像，“安东，我需要建造一些东西。
How do I find a great software engineer?" And we are building for this 99% of the population who don't write code.
我如何找到一位优秀的软件工程师？”我们正在为这 99% 不编写代码的人群进行构建。
Currently, if you're technically inclined, you get much further, but over time, naturally the way to build software is by just talking to an AI.
目前，如果你有技术倾向，你会走得更远，但随着时间的推移，构建软件的方式自然就是通过与人工智能对话。
And that's how we see it.
我们就是这样看的。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love the way that you guys describe it and you didn't mention it, but I think it's building the last piece of software ever.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你们描述它的方式，但你们没有提到它，但我认为它正在构建有史以来最后一个软件。
How do you phrase that?
你怎么说？
Anton Osika: Yeah, we say we're building the last piece of software.
Anton Osika：是的，我们说我们正在构建最后一个软件。
Lenny Rachitsky: The last piece of software.
Lenny Rachitsky：最后一个软件。
Okay, we're going to do a live demo, but first of all, can you just share some stats on the scale of this business at this point because it's quite absurd.
好的，我们将进行现场演示，但首先，您能否分享一下目前该业务规模的一些统计数据，因为这非常荒谬。
Anton Osika: Yeah.
安东·奥西卡：是的。
So we launched Lovable less than three months ago, and now we have 300,000 monthly active users and 30,000 of those are actually paying and it is growing at the same rates, just almost only through organic word of mouth.
因此，我们在不到三个月前推出了 Lovable，现在我们每月有 300,000 名活跃用户，其中 30,000 名实际付费用户，并且它以相同的速度增长，几乎只是通过有机口碑。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
And I'll share a couple stats in terms of revenue, just so folks know this, and we'll have this in the intro too.
我将分享一些收入方面的统计数据，以便人们了解这一点，我们也会在介绍中介绍这一点。
I think you guys hit 4 million ARR in the first four weeks.
我想你们在前四个星期就达到了 400 万的 ARR。
You hit 10 million ARR in the first two months with just 15 people.
仅用 15 名员工，您在前两个月就实现了 1000 万 ARR。
You're the fastest growing startup in all of Europe, and you guys had to rewrite your entire code base recently and you couldn't ship any new features for a while.
你们是全欧洲发展最快的初创公司，你们最近不得不重写整个代码库，并且有一段时间无法发布任何新功能。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Anton Osika: That's right, yeah.
安东·奥斯卡：没错，是的。
People were saying like, "Oh, you're shipping so fast." And we were all quite frustrated because we wrote our service in this kind of scripting language and then as we started scaling, we were just, no, we have to throw everything away and rewrite it in a more performant way.
人们会说，“哦，你的发货速度真快。”我们都非常沮丧，因为我们用这种脚本语言编写了我们的服务，然后当我们开始扩展时，我们只是，不，我们必须扔掉所有东西并以更高效的方式重写它。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, before we get to the demo, last question, you shared there's some companies that have started based on Lovable.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，在我们进行演示之前，最后一个问题，您分享了一些公司是基于 Lovable 开始的。
I didn't even know that.
我什至不知道这一点。
So what are some examples of companies slash businesses that have launched off of Lovable and now are actually companies?
那么，有哪些公司削减了从 Lovable 推出的业务，而现在实际上已经成为公司的例子呢？
Anton Osika: I mentioned designers using Lovable and one of our early users, Harry, he started shipping real web apps to his clients instead of just shipping designs.
Anton Osika：我提到了使用 Lovable 的设计师和我们的早期用户之一 Harry，他开始向他的客户提供真正的网络应用程序，而不仅仅是提供设计。
And then he went on to say, okay, wait, I'm going to start an AI startup.
然后他接着说，好吧，等等，我要创办一家人工智能初创公司。
And his company, he launched on Product Hunt and everything and making money is just like, let's anyone upload their photo library and then the AI parses and categorizes it.
他的公司，他在 Product Hunt 上推出，一切和赚钱就像，让任何人上传他们的照片库，然后人工智能对其进行解析和分类。
And if you go to launched.lovable.app, this is an app built with Lovable is again a product Hunt version where you can see a lot of businesses or small SaaS featured there.
如果你访问launched.lovable.app，这是一个用Lovable构建的应用程序，也是一个产品Hunt版本，你可以在其中看到很多企业或小型SaaS。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, cool.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，酷。
So we're going to come back to some of this stuff, but let's get into demo.
所以我们将回到其中的一些内容，但让我们进入演示。
I rarely do demos on this podcast, but I'm finding that I think it's really important for people to see these products in action because in a large part, this is the future of product building and a lot of people hear about, "Oh yeah, AI's coming," and I don't think a lot of people actually see what the latest tools are capable of.
我很少在这个播客上进行演示，但我发现我认为人们看到这些产品的实际应用非常重要，因为在很大程度上，这是产品构建的未来，很多人都听说，“哦，是的，人工智能即将到来”，但我认为没有很多人真正看到最新工具的能力。
And so I love showing these sorts of things on this podcast.
所以我喜欢在这个播客上展示这些东西。
Anton Osika: So Lenny, I was thinking, did you ever consider making a copy and build your own Airbnb?
Anton Osika：所以 Lenny，我在想，你有没有考虑过复制并建立自己的 Airbnb？
Lenny Rachitsky: Let's do it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：让我们开始吧。
Let's do it.
我们开始做吧。
Okay, so we're going to make our own Airbnb.
好的，我们要创建自己的 Airbnb。
Anton Osika: So I just put in the first prompt for an Airbnb clone.
Anton Osika：所以我只是输入了 Airbnb 克隆版的第一个提示。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
And what is the prompt, just for folks that aren't watching?
对于那些没有观看的人来说，提示是什么？
Anton Osika: Two words, Airbnb clones.
Anton Osika：两个词，Airbnb 的克隆。
That's the prompt.
这就是提示。
Anton Osika: Just start simple and then what you get is that the AI says, okay, I can go through what does a beautiful Airbnb clone look like and it goes through a bit of design decisions and then I'll zoom out to see more of it.
Anton Osika：从简单开始，然后你得到的是人工智能说，好吧，我可以了解一个漂亮的 Airbnb 克隆是什么样子，它会经历一些设计决策，然后我会缩小以查看更多内容。
We have this just UI that is...
我们有这个用户界面......
I mean it has all the nice things you would expect from Airbnb clone where you see different categories and you can see two listings from Airbnb with login buttons and everything.
我的意思是，它拥有您期望从 Airbnb 克隆中获得的所有好东西，您可以看到不同的类别，并且可以看到来自 Airbnb 的两个列表，其中包含登录按钮和所有内容。
So far it doesn't have the functionality of Airbnb, it just has the UI.
目前为止它还没有 Airbnb 的功能，只有 UI。
I would now ask for an improvement on some of the functionality.
我现在要求改进某些功能。
Like if I'm switching category, I want to see different listings, let's say.
比如说，如果我要切换类别，我想看到不同的列表。
But if you have any thoughts on what we should build next, let me know.
但如果您对我们下一步应该构建什么有任何想法，请告诉我。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, and so you had this preloaded, so you didn't see how long it would take, but how long would this normally take for it to just write all this code and have it for you?
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，所以你已经预加载了这个，所以你没有看到需要多长时间，但是通常需要多长时间才能编写所有这些代码并为你提供它？
Anton Osika: The first prompt takes 30 seconds.
Anton Osika：第一个提示需要 30 秒。
Lenny Rachitsky: 30 seconds?
莱尼·拉奇茨基：30 秒？
Okay.
好的。
And it's like a very good copy of Airbnb.
这就像 Airbnb 的一个非常好的复制品。
I love that you didn't have to show it a design, you just tell it Airbnb and it knows.
我喜欢的是，你不必向它展示设计，你只需告诉它 Airbnb，它就会知道。
Okay, so your question is would I want to add to my own version of Airbnb?
好的，您的问题是我想添加到我自己的 Airbnb 版本中吗？
I've always wanted to explore buying the place that I look at just like, Is this for sale?
我一直想探索购买我看到的地方，就像，这是出售吗？
So what if we see what that would feel like if you're just a way to buy a listing.
那么，如果我们看看如果您只是购买列表的一种方式，那会是什么样的感觉呢？
Anton Osika: Okay.
安东·奥西卡：好的。
Okay.
好的。
So how about we add, I mean prompting is important here, so let's be specific, but we would ask, add a button on the listing which has purchased this Airbnb home.
那么我们添加一个怎么样，我的意思是提示在这里很重要，所以让我们具体一点，但我们会问，在购买了这个 Airbnb 房屋的列表上添加一个按钮。
Is that it?
是这样吗？
Anton Osika: Okay, so, add, and .
Anton Osika：好的，所以，添加，和。
I'll be even more specific.
我会更具体。
It will pop up a model to purchase the listing.
它将弹出一个模型来购买列表。
Lenny Rachitsky: Perfect.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：完美。
And I love...
我爱...
So I think something as you're typing, I'm just going to share thoughts as you're doing this.
因此，当您打字时，我会想到一些事情，我会在您这样做时分享一些想法。
So the site that you asked this AI engineer to build, it's actually a functioning website that you can browse around.
因此，您要求这位人工智能工程师构建的网站实际上是一个您可以浏览的功能网站。
It's not just a design, obviously there's no actual listings here, there's no actual houses here.
这不仅仅是一个设计，显然这里没有实际的列表，这里没有实际的房子。
Say you were trying to actually build Airbnb and you wanted to start adding actual homes that plug into this, how does that sort of step work?
假设您正在尝试实际构建 Airbnb，并且想要开始添加插入其中的实际房屋，那么这个步骤是如何进行的呢？
Anton Osika: So as you say, this is just kind of the mockup UI, but it's also interactive.
Anton Osika：正如你所说，这只是 UI 模型，但它也是交互式的。
If I want to add login and add listing management, then we will connect something called the backend.
如果我想添加登录并添加列表管理，那么我们将连接称为后端的东西。
So where data is stored, where user's log information is stored, and I can show you how to do that.
那么数据存储在哪里，用户的日志信息存储在哪里，我可以向您展示如何做到这一点。
First let's just try out where we got with this short prompt.
首先，让我们尝试一下通过这个简短的提示我们得到了什么。
Anton Osika: Adding the purchase listing and it didn't do exactly what I wanted.
Anton Osika：添加购买清单后，它并没有完全达到我想要的效果。
I said, add a button...
我说，加一个按钮...
Or I didn't say what a button should say, but it says book now, and if I click book now I get a booking confirmation.
或者我没有说按钮应该说什么，但它说“立即预订”，如果我单击“立即预订”，我会收到预订确认。
So the AI was like, okay, it didn't...
所以人工智能就像，好吧，它没有……
It was probably surprised by you wanting to buy the listing since it's Airbnb.
它可能对您想要购买该房源感到惊讶，因为它是 Airbnb。
So it still says book the listing, but it shows a pretty model where I can click confirm and pay.
所以它仍然说预订列表，但它显示了一个漂亮的模型，我可以在其中单击确认并付款。
And then it's says booking confirmed.
然后就说预订已确认。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'll just say real quick, I love that this is actually a really good example of why being a good product manager is important.
Lenny Rachitsky：我只想说，我喜欢这实际上是一个很好的例子，说明了为什么成为一名优秀的产品经理很重要。
A lot of wasted time happens when you're not clear about the problem you're trying to solve and why you're trying to solve it and all that kind of stuff.
当您不清楚要解决的问题以及为什么要解决它以及诸如此类的事情时，就会浪费很多时间。
So it's really cool that this is a use case where you have to be really good at explaining what it is you want.
因此，这是一个非常酷的用例，您必须非常善于解释您想要什么。
And it's interesting, you don't have to tell this AI-why.
有趣的是，你不必告诉人工智能为什么。
Humans want to understand, "Why is this important." Mostly you need to be very clear about what it is you're doing and I love that's a really strong PM skill.
人类想要理解“为什么这很重要”。大多数情况下，你需要非常清楚自己在做什么，我喜欢这是一项非常强大的 PM 技能。
Your PM's really good at that.
你们的 PM 在这方面确实很擅长。
So we have to...
所以我们必须...
Anton Osika: Hey.
安东·奥西卡：嘿。
Explaining exactly what you expect and what you're not getting is even more important with AI than with the humans.
准确地解释你所期望的和你没有得到的对于人工智能来说比人类更重要。
So I'm going into hooking up more of the actual functionality, but first I'll actually show you something.
因此，我将连接更多的实际功能，但首先我将向您展示一些内容。
What's the fastest way to change what went wrong, it's created buttons that say book now and I want them to say, "Buy now." And what I could do is select this item and say change it to buy now.
改变错误的最快方法是什么，它创建了“立即预订”按钮，我希望他们说“立即购买”。我能做的就是选择这个项目并说将其更改为立即购买。
But what we just realized is that you can actually edit this, this is a fully functioning product, but you can edit it visually like you do in Squarespace and Wix and so on.
但我们刚刚意识到，你实际上可以编辑它，这是一个功能齐全的产品，但你可以像在 Squarespace 和 Wix 等中那样以可视方式编辑它。
So I'll just change the text to buy now and then it instantly changes.
所以我只需将文本更改为立即购买，然后它就会立即更改。
It actually changes deep down in the code base, but it's very fast to do that.
它实际上在代码库的深处进行了更改，但速度非常快。
Lenny Rachitsky: So I think people listening to this and seeing this, if you're not aware this is the cutting edge of tools like this, no other tool out there lets you generate code from an AI engineer and then actually just change a small element of it of every other tool that I'm aware of.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以我认为人们听到这个并看到这个，如果你不知道这是这样的工具的最前沿，那么没有其他工具可以让你从人工智能工程师生成代码，然后实际上只改变我所知道的所有其他工具的一小部分。
You have to ask the agent, do this for me, and then you hope that it does the right thing.
你必须询问代理人，为我做这件事，然后你希望它做正确的事。
So this is a huge deal which you just showed.
所以你刚才展示的这是一件大事。
Right?
正确的？
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
Like that's amazing.
就像这太神奇了。
Okay, and that's something you just launched?
好吧，那是你刚刚推出的东西吗？
Anton Osika: Yeah.
安东·奥西卡：是的。
Great.
伟大的。
We just launched this a few days ago, but I won't go into for building the full functionality, but what it looks like is that you connect an open source backend as a service and that's called SuperBase.
我们几天前刚刚推出了这个，但我不会详细介绍构建完整的功能，但它看起来像是连接一个开源后端作为服务，这就是所谓的 SuperBase。
And I have this instance to connect to that's completely empty, just like one click to set that up and now it's connected to the backend.
我有一个要连接的实例，它完全是空的，就像单击一下即可设置它一样，现在它已连接到后端。
It's just automatically generating some code and explaining what I can do next.
它只是自动生成一些代码并解释我接下来可以做什么。
And what I would do now is, say, let's add login, let's say let's add login.
我现在要做的是，让我们添加登录名，让我们添加登录名。
Lenny Rachitsky: And where is it actually hosted on the backend and everything in general?
Lenny Rachitsky：后端以及其他所有内容实际上托管在哪里？
Anton Osika: So everything can be one click deployed and then it's running.
Anton Osika：所以一切都可以一键部署，然后运行。
It's hosted by a cloud vendor, which is hosting, I think a huge chunk of the internet, it's called Cloudflare, and the backend is hosted by also good cloud writer, which is called SuperBase.
它由一家云供应商托管，我认为该供应商托管着互联网的很大一部分，它称为 Cloudflare，后端由同样优秀的云编写器托管，称为 SuperBase。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Okay, let's wrap up the demo, that was...
好吧，让我们结束演示，那是......
Unless there's anything else, was there anything else really important that you wanted to show?
除非有其他事情，还有什么其他真正重要的事情是你想展示的吗？
Anton Osika: No I'll just explain what I would do next.
Anton Osika：不，我只是解释一下我接下来要做什么。
I would say, okay, let's add login.
我会说，好吧，让我们添加登录功能。
Let's make the listings editable by the users so users can upload listings and then this is going to take a bit more time, but with patience and good prompting skills, you're going to get to a full working Airbnb.
让我们让用户可以编辑列表，以便用户可以上传列表，然后这将花费更多时间，但只要有耐心和良好的提示技巧，您将获得一个完整运行的 Airbnb。
Lenny Rachitsky: That was a really good piece to add.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常好的补充。
So basically this is getting to a place where it actually is not so different from actual Airbnb.
基本上，这与实际的 Airbnb 并没有太大不同。
People can log in, they can add their home, you can add internal tools to add listings for your, say, sales team, ops team.
人们可以登录，他们可以添加他们的家，您可以添加内部工具来为您的销售团队、运营团队添加列表。
Basically it just will allow you to build a marketplace that looks a lot like Airbnb.
基本上它只会让你建立一个看起来很像 Airbnb 的市场。
Amazing.
惊人的。
Okay, thank you for the demo.
好的，谢谢你的演示。
I think for a lot of people they're like, "Yeah, yeah, I've seen this kind of stuff," for most people, like, "Holy shit." It's unreal what...
我认为对于很多人来说，他们会说，“是的，是的，我见过这种东西”，对于大多数人来说，他们会说，“天哪。”这是不真实的什么...
It's almost like we're taking for granted now.
我们现在几乎认为这是理所当然的。
You can ask an app to build you a whole website and that costs probably like a few pennies.
您可以要求应用程序为您构建一个完整的网站，这可能需要几美分。
It took like five minutes versus it would've been tens of thousands and weeks and weeks and months to even build just a prototype.
仅仅构建一个原型就需要花费数万、数周、数周和数月的时间。
Anton Osika: I mean, these tools as we see here, they're already very good, it looks really good as well, but mainly I would say they're getting better very, very fast.
Anton Osika：我的意思是，正如我们在这里看到的这些工具，它们已经非常好，看起来也非常好，但主要是我想说它们变得非常非常快。
And I'd say one of the bigger bottlenecks is now they're not integrated into the current way that you have your existing products and so on.
我想说，更大的瓶颈之一是现在它们没有集成到现有产品等的当前方式中。
But since they're getting better so fast, I think the best thing for people who are interested in this or interested in just being a part of the future economies, get your hands very dirty with these tools because being in the top 10% in using them is going to absolutely set you apart in the coming months and years.
但由于它们进步得如此之快，我认为对于那些对此感兴趣或只想成为未来经济一部分的人来说，最好的办法是亲自使用这些工具，因为在使用这些工具方面跻身前 10% 绝对会让你在未来的几个月和几年中脱颖而出。
Lenny Rachitsky: So let me follow that thread.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以让我继续关注这个话题。
So say you are magically able to sit next to everybody that is using Lovable for the first time and you could just whisper a tip in their ear to be successful with Lovable, what would that tip be?
假设你神奇地能够坐在每个第一次使用 Lovable 的人旁边，你可以在他们耳边低声提示如何使用 Lovable 取得成功，这个提示会是什么？
Anton Osika: It takes a lot to master using tools like Lovable and being very curious and patient and we have something called chat mode where you can just ask to understand like, "How does this work?
Anton Osika：掌握使用像 Lovable 这样的工具需要付出很多努力，并且需要非常好奇和耐心，我们有一种叫做聊天模式的东西，你可以在其中询问理解，比如“这是如何工作的？
I'm not getting what I want here, am I missing something?
我在这里没有得到我想要的东西，我错过了什么吗？
What should I do?" Is the best way to be productive is also one of the best ways to just learn about how software engineering works, which is you don't have to write the code anymore, but it is useful to understand how software engin- or how building products works.
我该怎么办？”提高工作效率的最佳方法也是了解软件工程如何工作的最佳方法之一，即您不必再编写代码，但了解软件工程或构建产品如何工作非常有用。
So I think that's the patience and curiosity is super useful.
所以我认为耐心和好奇心非常有用。
The second part that we spoke about is that being, if I would sit next to you, I would probably say like, "Hey, you are not being super clear here." For example, don't say it doesn't work.
我们讨论的第二部分是，如果我坐在你旁边，我可能会说，“嘿，你在这里说得不是很清楚。”例如，不要说它不起作用。
Just explain exactly what you're expecting and which parts are working and which parts are not working.
只需准确解释您的期望以及哪些部分正常工作以及哪些部分不工作即可。
And that's something that a lot of people don't do naturally.
这是很多人不会自然而然地做的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that when you have an engineer you're working with that does a very expensive mistake to miscommunicate something, to just forget about a feature, to forget a better requirement, and here it's...
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这样的情况：当你的工程师与你一起工作时，他犯了一个非常昂贵的错误，比如沟通不畅、忘记某个功能、忘记更好的要求，而这就是......
You do that and then 30 seconds later you're like, "Oh okay, sorry, that was wrong." And then you could just try again.
你这样做了，30 秒后你就会说，“哦，好吧，抱歉，那是错的。”然后你可以再试一次。
Anton Osika: That's true.
安东·奥西卡：确实如此。
It might be more costly with humans.
对于人类来说，成本可能更高。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, and so the first step is chat mode.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，第一步是聊天模式。
So your advice is chat with the...
所以你的建议是与...聊天
What do you call it?
你怎么称呼它？
Do you call it an agent?
你管它叫代理吗？
What's the term for the thing that you were talking with?
与您交谈的事物的术语是什么？
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
So you're talking about Lovable by the way.
顺便说一句，你正在谈论可爱。
How decide on Lovable as the name?
如何决定“可爱”这个名字？
It's so sweet.
太甜了。
Anton Osika: I think it's all about building a great product.
Anton Osika：我认为这一切都是为了打造一款出色的产品。
That's what I want more people to be able to do and the best word for a great product is that it's Lovable.
这就是我希望更多的人能够做到的事情，对于一个伟大的产品最好的形容词就是它是可爱的。
A lot of jargon that I like to use to emphasize what we should be striving for is building a minimum Lovable product and then building a Lovable product and then building an absolutely Lovable product.
我喜欢用很多行话来强调我们应该努力的目标是构建一个最小的可爱产品，然后构建一个可爱的产品，然后构建一个绝对可爱的产品。
So I took that jargon with me in the company name.
所以我在公司名称中保留了这些行话。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is great.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：那太好了。
Absolute Lovable product.
绝对可爱的产品。
ALP is the new MVP.
ALP 是新的 MVP。
Okay, so we talked about this, the scale you guys have hit at this point, I imagine it's far beyond 10 million ARR.
好的，所以我们讨论了这个，你们目前达到的规模，我想它远远超过 1000 万 ARR。
Do you share that at this point or are you keeping that private?
您现在会分享这一点还是保密？
Anton Osika: We don't anchor on the numbers, but I could probably do a two X tweet about this quite soon.
Anton Osika：我们不关注数字，但我可能很快就会就此发布一条两条 X 推文。
Yes.
是的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so it's far beyond 10 million ARR at this point.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，目前 ARR 远远超过 1000 万。
It's one of the fastest growing startups in history, the fastest growing startup in Europe.
它是历史上增长最快的初创公司之一，也是欧洲增长最快的初创公司。
I want to zoom us back to the beginning.
我想让我们回到起点。
What is the origin story of Lovable?
《可爱》的起源故事是什么？
How did it all begin?
这一切是如何开始的？
What was the journey to today?
今天的旅程是什么？
Anton Osika: I think I was not impressed by what people were doing with the large language models , especially after I was using them way back.
Anton Osika：我认为人们对大型语言模型所做的事情并没有给我留下深刻的印象，尤其是在我很久以前使用它们之后。
But when ChatGPT came out, they were starting to get really good at taking a human instruction and spitting out code and then people in my team, I was the CTO at a YC startup, they felt like, "Oh, Anton, you're exaggerating.
但当 ChatGPT 出现时，他们开始真正擅长接受人类指令并吐出代码，然后我团队中的人们，我是 YC 初创公司的 CTO，他们觉得，“哦，安东，你太夸张了。
This is not going to change anything in the coming years." So I wanted to prove a point and I created an open source tool called GPT Engineer where you write something like create a snake game and then it spits out a lot of code, a little of different files and then opens the snake game.
这在未来几年不会改变任何事情。”所以我想证明一个观点，我创建了一个名为 GPT Engineer 的开源工具，你可以在其中编写类似创建贪吃蛇游戏的内容，然后它会输出大量代码和一些不同的文件，然后打开贪吃蛇游戏。
And then I tweeted a video about that and GPT Engineer is to date the most popular open source tool to showcase the ability for large language models to create applications and it's at like 50 something thousand GitHub stars and dozens of academic references.
然后我在推特上发布了一个有关该内容的视频，GPT Engineer 是迄今为止最流行的开源工具，展示了大型语言模型创建应用程序的能力，它有大约 50 多个 GitHub 星和数十个学术参考文献。
Lenny Rachitsky: And I know that I'll just add that it GitHub shut you down because they thought it was some kind of attack, like how many stars you're getting, how many people were using it,
Lenny Rachitsky：我知道我只想补充一点，GitHub 关闭了你，因为他们认为这是某种攻击，比如你获得了多少颗星，有多少人在使用它，
Anton Osika: Right.
安东·奥西卡： 是的。
Yeah.
是的。
So that came later.
所以这是后来的事情。
That's with Lovable.
那是和可爱的。
So this is Lovable.
所以这是可爱的。
Lovable, earlier was always creating new projects on GitHub when someone used Lovable and we asked them, "Is it fine?
Lovable，早些时候总是在 GitHub 上创建新项目，当有人使用 Lovable 时，我们问他们，“可以吗？
How was the limits here?" They said, "Oh, there are no limits." But once we started creating 15,000 projects per day, so there were a lot of usage.
这里的限制如何？”他们说：“哦，没有限制。”但一旦我们开始每天创建 15,000 个项目，就会出现大量使用。
Then some engineer when was on call, maybe they woke up in the night and they saw their servers were taking too much load because of us.
然后一些工程师在值班时，也许他们在半夜醒来，发现他们的服务器因为我们而承受了太多的负载。
So then they shut off down completely and we got this email that said, "Oh, you broke some kind of rules and we didn't know what was going on."
然后他们完全关闭了，我们收到这封电子邮件，上面写着：“哦，你违反了某种规则，我们不知道发生了什么。”
Lenny Rachitsky: That's similar to a story I heard when ChatGPT was originally being trained, Microsoft servers blocked it because they thought it was some crawler and it was just actually the very first version ChatGPT being trained on data.
Lenny Rachitsky：这与我在 ChatGPT 最初接受训练时听到的一个故事类似，微软服务器阻止了它，因为他们认为这是某种爬虫，而这实际上只是在数据上训练的第一个版本的 ChatGPT。
Anyway, keep going.
不管怎样，继续吧。
Anton Osika: So I built this tool called GPT Engineer and I was thinking about we're seeing the biggest change humanity will ever see, I think, where before you had the manual labor being taken over by machines, but now it's actually cognitive labor being done better than humans by machines and what's the best way to have some kind of positive impact here?
Anton Osika：所以我构建了这个名为 GPT Engineer 的工具，我在想，我们正在看到人类将看到的最大变化，我认为，之前体力劳动被机器接管，但现在实际上是机器比人类做得更好的认知劳动，在这里产生某种积极影响的最佳方式是什么？
It's not to make engineers more productive, which there's a lot of companies using AI to make engineers more productive, Microsoft did with co-pilot and so on.
这并不是为了提高工程师的工作效率，很多公司都在使用人工智能来提高工程师的工作效率，微软就用副驾驶等方式做到了这一点。
But it is to enable those who have such a hard time finding people who are good at creating software that's been their absolute bottleneck and let them take their ideas and their beliefs into reality.
但它是为了帮助那些很难找到擅长创建软件的人（这一直是他们的绝对瓶颈）的人，让他们将自己的想法和信念变成现实。
So enabling more entrepreneurship and innovation by building the AI software engineer for anyone.
因此，通过为任何人培养人工智能软件工程师来促进更多的创业和创新。
And then I grabbed a previous colleague of mine who has also been a founder, Fabian, and I said we should build something like GPT Engineer but it has to be for the people who don't write code and that's the story.
然后我找到了我以前的同事 Fabian，他也是创始人，我说我们应该构建类似 GPT Engineer 的东西，但它必须是为那些不编写代码的人设计的，这就是故事。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
And then that became lovable?
然后就变得可爱了？
There's the shift from open source into a product that anyone can use but also pay for.
从开源到任何人都可以使用但需要付费的产品的转变。
Makes sense.
有道理。
Okay, so from that point I saw a stat that you started making a million dollars in ARR per week and once you launched lovable, is that true?
好吧，从那时起我看到一个统计数据，你开始每周赚取 100 万美元的 ARR，一旦你推出了 lovely，这是真的吗？
Anton Osika: Yeah, so launched, we actually called the first version of the product like GPT Engineer app and it was very different in some ways and we launched that under a waitlist and said like, Oh yeah, we have this waitlist and we got a lot of feedback and iterated.
Anton Osika：是的，如此推出，我们实际上将产品的第一个版本称为 GPT 工程师应用程序，它在某些方面非常不同，我们在候补名单下推出了它，并说，哦，是的，我们有这个候补名单，我们得到了很多反馈并进行了迭代。
Finally, when we thought the product was really good we said okay, now we have a Lovable product.
最后，当我们认为这个产品真的很好时，我们说好吧，现在我们有了一个可爱的产品。
And it was mainly on the AI that we did a lot of improvements, once we launched that, that was 21st of November, so that's almost three months ago.
我们主要是在人工智能方面做了很多改进，一旦我们推出它，那是11月21日，所以那是差不多三个月前的事了。
We just hit 1 million ARR in a week and then it kept growing at that pace.
我们在一周内达到了 100 万 ARR，然后它继续以这个速度增长。
It still growing at even faster than that pace.
它的增长速度甚至比这个速度还要快。
Lenny Rachitsky: Faster than 1 million ARR per week.
Lenny Rachitsky：每周 ARR 快于 100 万。
Holy shit.
天哪。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, that sounds like product market fit to me.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，这听起来适合我的产品市场。
You said that you did a lot of work on the backend.
你说你在后端做了很多工作。
I saw you tweet about this that you guys figured out some kind of unlock on scalability, like a new scaling law that allowed you to build something like this.
我看到你发推文说你们想出了某种可扩展性的解锁方法，比如一个新的扩展法则，允许你构建这样的东西。
What can you talk about there that on the technical element allowed you to build something new and the successful?
您能在技术元素上谈论哪些内容让您能够构建出新的、成功的东西？
Anton Osika: There are many scaling laws I would say when you build AI systems and this one in particular is about when you put in more work, the product reliably gets better and better.
Anton Osika：当你构建人工智能系统时，我会说有很多缩放法则，尤其是当你投入更多工作时，产品会变得越来越好。
And what you've seen generally when you have AI building something is that it can get stuck in some place.
当你让人工智能构建一些东西时，你通常会看到它可能会卡在某个地方。
It is super good in the beginning and then it gets stuck.
一开始非常好，然后就卡住了。
What we did was to painstakingly identify places where it got stuck and there is different approaches but address different ways how we do it but address the places where it gets stuck, tune the entire system quantitatively and having a very fast feedback loop to improve it in the areas where it got stuck.
我们所做的就是煞费苦心地找出卡住的地方，有不同的方法，但解决我们如何做的不同方式，但要解决卡住的地方，定量地调整整个系统，并有一个非常快的反馈循环来改进卡住的地方。
The most important areas, it still does get stuck sometimes, but that's the scaling law and we're still early in that scaling law, I would say.
最重要的领域，有时它仍然会陷入困境，但这就是缩放定律，我想说，我们仍处于缩放定律的早期阶段。
Lenny Rachitsky: And so when you talk about things getting stuck, it's like the AI agent just saying, I don't know what to do from this point or they introduce some kind of bug.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以当你谈论事情陷入困境时，就像人工智能代理只是说，我不知道从现在开始该做什么，或者他们引入了某种错误。
Is that an example of getting stuck?
这是一个陷入困境的例子吗？
Anton Osika: Yeah.
安东·奥西卡：是的。
It introduces some kind of bug and then it's not smart enough to figure out how to get out of that bug.
它引入了某种错误，然后它不够聪明，无法弄清楚如何摆脱该错误。
Lenny Rachitsky: I see.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我明白了。
And this is a common problem people have with tools like this is they get to a certain point and then it's like, "Well I don't know what to do.
这是人们在使用此类工具时遇到的一个常见问题，他们到达某个点后就会说：“我不知道该怎么办。
I'm not an engineer, here's a bug it's running into or the infrastructure's built the wrong way." And so it sounds like one of the paths to solving that is what you're describing is you make the AI smarter to avoid more and more of these places they get stuck.
我不是工程师，这是它遇到的错误，或者基础设施的构建方式错误。”所以听起来，解决这个问题的途径之一就是你所描述的，就是让人工智能变得更聪明，以避免越来越多的地方陷入困境。
Another is people just learning how to get AI unstuck.
另一个原因是人们刚刚学习如何摆脱人工智能的困境。
This is something when we had Amjad on the podcast from Replit, he said that this is the main skill that he thinks people need to learn is how to unstuck AI when it runs into a problem.
这是当我们在 Replit 的播客上邀请 Amjad 时发生的事情，他说这是他认为人们需要学习的主要技能是如何在人工智能遇到问题时摆脱困境。
Just thoughts there, I don't know anything along those lines come up as I say that.
只是想，当我这么说时，我不知道会出现什么类似的情况。
Anton Osika: This is something that is a problem today and the frontier of where this is a problem is very rapidly receding back.
Anton Osika：这是当今的一个问题，而且这个问题的边界正在迅速后退。
So what we did was we identified the most important areas, so specifically adding login, creating data persistence, adding payment with Stripe.
所以我们所做的就是确定最重要的领域，特别是添加登录、创建数据持久性、添加 Stripe 支付。
Those are the things that we made sure it doesn't get stuck on, for example.
例如，我们要确保它不会被卡住。
And the places where it gets stuck today is currently something that you can use being very good at understanding and getting unstuck, but in the future it won't be so important.
今天卡住的地方目前是你可以很好地理解和摆脱卡住的地方，但在未来它不会那么重要。
This experience just going to not get stuck.
这种体验不会被卡住。
Lenny Rachitsky: And I know you're not talking super in-depth about this because this is one of your unfair advantages, this kind of stuff you figured out.
Lenny Rachitsky：我知道你并没有对此进行非常深入的讨论，因为这是你的不公平优势之一，这种东西是你想出来的。
So I'm not going to push too far.
所以我不会走得太远。
I know you want not everyone's into exactly the same stuff.
我知道你不希望每个人都喜欢完全相同的东西。
So I want to zoom back to the pace of growth that you guys have seen.
所以我想回顾一下你们所看到的增长速度。
One of the big stories, everyone's always looking at you guys of like 15 people, 10 million ARR in two months.
其中一个大故事是，每个人都在关注你们，大约有 15 个人，两个月内就获得了 1000 万 ARR。
That's absurd.
这太荒谬了。
I don't know if it's ever been done in history.
不知道历史上有没有这样做过。
If so, it's maybe a couple other AI startups recently.
如果是这样，那么最近可能还有其他几家人工智能初创公司。
How have you been able to do this?
你是如何做到这一点的？
What have you done that has allowed you to grow this fast with so few people?
你们做了什么让你们在这么少的人的情况下发展得这么快？
Anton Osika: I'd like to take credit of having done everything end to end in the product, but we are building on top of taking the oil here, which we have discovered oil, which is are the foundation models and then what we've done is that we're obsessed about what's the right way to present this to a user.
Anton Osika：我想赞扬我们在产品中完成了从头到尾的所有工作，但我们正在以石油为基础，我们已经发现了石油，这是基础模型，然后我们所做的是我们痴迷于以正确的方式将其呈现给用户。
What's the interface for the human to get as much out of this as possible?
人类可以通过什么界面来尽可能多地利用它？
Packaging together, I showed you in the demo how you can add authentication and making this work seamlessly together as a whole.
打包在一起，我在演示中向您展示了如何添加身份验证并使之作为一个整体无缝地协同工作。
That's what we've done.
这就是我们所做的。
And then people love the product.
然后人们就会喜欢这个产品。
That's the driver of the growth.
这是增长的动力。
For getting awareness, we've mainly been posting what we've shipped on social media, that's how people know about us.
为了提高知名度，我们主要在社交媒体上发布我们发布的内容，这就是人们了解我们的方式。
Lenny Rachitsky: So building in public is how people usually describe that.
Lenny Rachitsky：人们通常这样描述公共建筑。
So I think it's like you guys have the advantage of the demos are just like, "Holy shit, you can do that." And then you guys share the numbers that you guys are growing at.
所以我认为你们拥有演示的优势就像，“天哪，你可以做到这一点。”然后你们分享你们正在成长的数字。
So it's innately interesting and shareable, but I imagine most people have something interesting to share.
所以它本质上很有趣并且可以分享，但我想大多数人都有一些有趣的东西可以分享。
I guess is there anything that you think you did that other companies maybe haven't done that make the product so lovable?
我想有什么是你认为自己做了而其他公司可能没有做过的事情，才使得产品如此讨人喜欢？
Anton Osika: I mean the team is everything in building a great product, so I just give a big shout-out to the team that has written the code.
Anton Osika：我的意思是，团队是构建出色产品的一切，所以我只是对编写代码的团队表示大力赞扬。
I haven't written much of the code recently, I would say.
我想说，我最近没有写太多代码。
You want people who can ship really fast and have good taste for what this simple, what's the right abstractions and I think that's what we've done differently and have this obsession for us making it better and better and better.
你希望人们能够快速交付，并且对这种简单的东西有很好的品味，什么是正确的抽象，我认为这就是我们所做的不同的事情，并且我们痴迷于让它变得越来越好。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by the Fundrise Flagship Fund.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Fundrise 旗舰基金为您带来。
Full disclosure, real estate investing is boring.
完全披露，房地产投资很无聊。
Prediction markets are exciting.
预测市场令人兴奋。
Meme coins are a thrill ride.
Meme 硬币是一次刺激的旅程。
Even the stock market can swing wildly on a headline.
即使是股市也会因头条新闻而剧烈波动。
Hello Deepseek.
你好，深探。
But with real estate and investing there's no drama or adrenaline or excuses to refresh your portfolio every few minutes.
但对于房地产和投资来说，每隔几分钟就刷新你的投资组合并不存在戏剧性、肾上腺素或借口。
Just bland and boring stuff like diversification and dividends.
只是乏味而无聊的东西，比如多元化和股息。
So you won't be surprised to learn that the Fundrise Flagship real estate fund is a complete snoozefest.
因此，当您得知 Fundrise 旗舰房地产基金完全沉睡时，您不会感到惊讶。
The fund holds 1.1 billion dollars worth of institutional caliber real estate managed by team of pros focused on steadily growing your net worth for decades to come, see?
该基金持有价值 11 亿美元的机构级房地产，由专业团队管理，专注于在未来几十年内稳步增长您的净资产，明白吗？
Boring.
无聊的。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's the point.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这就是重点。
You can start investing in minutes and with as little as $10 by visiting Fundrise.com slash Lenny.
您只需访问 Fundrise.comlash Lenny，即可在几分钟内开始投资，只需 10 美元。
Carefully consider the investment objectives, risks, charges and expenses of the Fundrise Flagship fund before investing.
投资前请仔细考虑 Fundrise Flagship 基金的投资目标、风险、费用和开支。
Find this information and more in the fund's prospectus at fundrise.com slash flagship.
在fundrise.com 旗舰店的基金招股说明书中查找此信息及更多信息。
This is a paid ad.
这是付费广告。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, I want to come back to the team.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，我想回到球队。
I know you have a lot of thoughts there in terms of writing code, how much do you guys actually use AI to write the code that is building Lovable?
我知道你们在编写代码方面有很多想法，你们实际上使用人工智能来编写构建 Lovable 的代码有多少？
How does that work on your team?
这在你的团队中效果如何？
Anton Osika: We have set up lovable so that we can change lovable with itself.
Anton Osika：我们建立了lovely，这样我们就可以改变lovely本身。
We have done that.
我们已经做到了。
There is a lot of hyper-specific things in terms of running a separate...
在运行单独的方面有很多超具体的事情......
We spin up a dedicated computer for each user.
我们为每个用户配备一台专用计算机。
It doesn't do everything.
它并不能解决所有问题。
Lovable doesn't do everything.
可爱并不能解决一切。
So we use the tools that are for developers, not for the 99%, most of the time.
因此，大多数时候我们使用的工具是为开发人员设计的，而不是为 99% 的开发人员设计的。
And everyone uses AI all the time in writing code.
每个人在编写代码时都一直使用人工智能。
It's also in great course for experimentations.
这也非常适合实验。
Lenny Rachitsky: And are there tools like Cursor and stuff like that?
Lenny Rachitsky：有像 Cursor 这样的工具吗？
Like any tools you can share right now?
喜欢您现在可以分享的任何工具吗？
Anton Osika: Yeah.
安东·奥西卡：是的。
I think Cursor is the one that almost everyone uses in the team.
我认为Cursor是团队中几乎每个人都使用的一个。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
Okay, cool.
好吧，酷。
I did a survey recently on tools that my listeners and readers use in cursor.
我最近对我的听众和读者在光标中使用的工具进行了一项调查。
17% of all people that read my newsletter use Cursor already, which is absurd and you guys are in there, too.
阅读我的时事通讯的人中有 17% 已经使用 Cursor，这很荒谬，而你们也在那里。
Okay, so kind of along these lines, there's obviously other competitors and companies in this space, so everyone's always wondering, you, Bolt, Replit, Cursor is a different kind of thing.
好吧，沿着这些思路，这个领域显然还有其他竞争对手和公司，所以每个人总是想知道，你、Bolt、Replit、Cursor 是一种不同的东西。
What's the simplest way to understand maybe how Lovable might be different from say Bolt and Replit, which I think are probably the closest.
理解 Lovable 与 Bolt 和 Replit 有何不同的最简单方法是什么，我认为这可能是最接近的。
Anton Osika: The packaging for non-technical people is what we aim for and I showed you in the demo that you can edit the text, you can change the colors and so on instantly without having to go into the code editor and without having to wait about 30 seconds for the AI do the full change.
Anton Osika：面向非技术人员的包装是我们的目标，我在演示中向您展示了您可以立即编辑文本、更改颜色等，而无需进入代码编辑器，也无需等待大约 30 秒让 AI 完成完整的更改。
So that's the big way that we think about packaging it.
这就是我们考虑包装它的重要方式。
And then for making sure that this can be used as productively as possible in a larger team.
然后确保它可以在更大的团队中尽可能高效地使用。
Something that's different from I think all the other tools is that it is synchronized with GitHub and that means that you can use Cursor, or the people in your team that want to be more low-level, they can use Cursor and while the people who don't want to mess and set up their local file system and commit to GitHub and so on, they can use Lovable's.
与我认为所有其他工具不同的是，它与 GitHub 同步，这意味着您可以使用 Cursor，或者团队中想要更底层的人可以使用 Cursor，而不想搞乱并设置本地文件系统并提交到 GitHub 等的人可以使用 Lovable 的。
Anton Osika: Not getting stuck is I think the most important thing for people.
Anton Osika：我认为对人们来说最重要的是不陷入困境。
And that's why we entered this space late, we haven't done the same type of marketing as many others and we still, from the people that I talked to, ranked as the one that works most reliably.
这就是为什么我们进入这个领域较晚，我们没有像其他许多人那样进行相同类型的营销，但从我交谈过的人看来，我们仍然被评为最可靠的营销方式。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢它。
Okay.
好的。
So this point about how you can just use Lovable to build a lot of it for you and then get into Cursor to edit and tweak is a really big point.
因此，关于如何使用 Lovable 为您构建大量内容，然后进入 Cursor 进行编辑和调整，这一点非常重要。
And you're saying other companies aren't as good at that.
你是说其他公司在这方面没有那么擅长。
I don't know if any other does that.
我不知道其他人是否这样做。
Lenny Rachitsky: I don't think they let you do that.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为他们不会让你这么做。
Amazing.
惊人的。
Okay.
好的。
And then what's the vision for Lovable?
那么 Lovable 的愿景是什么？
What's the end state of this?
这件事的最终状态是什么？
Is this everybody can build anything they want sort of thing?
这是每个人都可以建造任何他们想要的东西吗？
What's the simplest way to understand where you're going in the next, I don't know, five, 10 years.
我不知道，了解你未来五年、十年的发展方向的最简单方法是什么。
Anton Osika: I have to say.
安东·奥西卡：我不得不说。
So we're building the last piece of software and it is inherently very hard to predict how the world looks like in five years.
因此，我们正在构建最后一款软件，本质上很难预测五年后世界会是什么样子。
These days it's very hard.
这些天很难。
But the last piece of software, how I see that is that it's almost instant to go from what you want to change in the product or what product you want to build to having it fully working end-to-end, integrated with any of your existing systems or integrated with the very powerful third-party providers.
但最后一个软件，我的看法是，从你想要改变产品的内容或你想要构建什么产品到让它端到端地完全工作、与任何现有系统集成或与非常强大的第三方提供商集成，几乎是即时的。
Already today you can just ask, add and chat with OpenAI and then you get the chat with OpenAI in your product.
今天，您只需询问、添加 OpenAI 并与 OpenAI 聊天，然后您就可以在您的产品中与 OpenAI 进行聊天。
But that's just working perfectly is something that's coming in the coming two years, I would say.
但我想说，未来两年将会出现完美的效果。
And then after that there is a lot of things in building a product that is not just the engineering side, right?
然后，在构建产品时还有很多事情要做，而不仅仅是工程方面，对吗？
And I think an AI can be very useful in aggregating and understanding your users.
我认为人工智能对于聚合和理解用户非常有用。
Anton Osika: So, if you use the analytics tools, you know that there is something quite common which is to see how users have interacted with the product.
Anton Osika：所以，如果您使用分析工具，您就会知道有一个非常常见的东西，那就是查看用户如何与产品交互。
AIs can do that on an absolutely massive scale and propose changes to a human to say, "Oh, yeah, that sounds like a good change to make it a bit more intuitive." And it can also automatically run A-B tests so that you can see the data, all these improvements to the product.
人工智能可以在绝对大规模上做到这一点，并向人类提出改变建议，“哦，是的，这听起来是一个很好的改变，使它更加直观。”而且它还可以自动运行 A-B 测试，以便您可以看到数据以及对产品的所有这些改进。
I think that's on the horizon as well, quite.
我认为这也即将到来。
Lenny Rachitsky: What's interesting about this in one way is people wonder just what jobs will be more important, what skills will be less important?
Lenny Rachitsky：这一点的有趣之处在于，人们想知道哪些工作会更重要，哪些技能会不太重要？
Let me share a thought I have and then I want to get your take and see where you go with this.
让我分享一个想法，然后我想听听您的看法，看看您对此有何看法。
It feels like what is getting more valuable is being good at figuring out what to build and then knowing if the thing you had built is correct and good and ready.
感觉更有价值的是善于弄清楚要构建什么，然后知道你构建的东西是否正确、良好和准备就绪。
So it's like discovery, ideation, idea, part of the step of launching a product and then it's like taste and craft.
所以这就像发现、构思、想法、推出产品步骤的一部分，然后就像品味和工艺。
Just like is this the thing?
就像是这个事情吗？
Is this going to solve people's problems because the building now is being done more and more and it's interesting, it used to be the reverse engineering was the hardest, most valuable skill and now it's figuring out what to build.
这是否会解决人们的问题，因为现在的建筑越来越多，而且很有趣，逆向工程曾经是最难、最有价值的技能，现在它正在弄清楚要建造什么。
Lenny Rachitsky: You could sit there and you could just tell it what to build and a lot of people get to your screen I'm sure and they're like, "I don't know what to build, I don't know what people want." And it's like that's the thing now.
Lenny Rachitsky：你可以坐在那里，告诉它要构建什么，我确信很多人都会看到你的屏幕，他们会说，“我不知道要构建什么，我不知道人们想要什么。”现在就是这样。
So just reactions to that and thoughts on what's skills will matter more and less.
因此，仅仅对此的反应以及对技能的思考将越来越重要。
Anton Osika: I mean if you're a founder or you want to build something.
Anton Osika：我的意思是，如果你是创始人或者你想创造一些东西。
Yeah, I totally agree that figuring out what are pain points and seeing there are often currently solutions, some kind of solution to everything.
是的，我完全同意找出痛点并看到当前通常有解决方案，某种解决方案。
How can you make this 10X better somehow figuring that out is super important when you have an existing product.
当您拥有现有产品时，如何才能以某种方式使这 10 倍变得更好，弄清楚这一点非常重要。
Then I think taste and tasting what is good is even more of the important part.
然后我认为品味和品尝好的东西更重要。
The engineer skill set is still going to be important because that helps you understand what are the constraints, so what you can build and I just think a lot of software engineers are probably a bit scared now like, "Okay, am I out of a job?
工程师技能仍然很重要，因为这可以帮助你了解限制是什么，你可以构建什么，我只是认为很多软件工程师现在可能有点害怕，比如，“好吧，我失业了吗？
What's going to happen?" But they should see themselves as the people who translate the problems that are stated a human, probably, to technical solutions, but they do have to abstract themselves up a few steps, not just looking at in their tech stack like oh I can just do the front end changes.
会发生什么事情呢？”但他们应该将自己视为将人类提出的问题转化为技术解决方案的人，但他们确实必须将自己抽象化几个步骤，而不仅仅是查看他们的技术堆栈，比如“哦，我可以只做前端更改”。
Engineers or technical people are very good at understanding what are the constraints technically and they should see themselves as that translators.
工程师或技术人员非常善于理解技术上的限制，他们应该将自己视为翻译者。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is it almost like you want to learn the eng manager skill of overseeing engineers versus the actual engineering skill or you think it's still going to be really important to learn how to code and be really good at that?
Lenny Rachitsky：您是否想学习监督工程师的工程经理技能，而不是实际的工程技能，或者您认为学习如何编码并真正擅长编码仍然非常重要？
Anton Osika: I mean doing a bit of everything.
Anton Osika：我的意思是凡事都做一点。
Being a generalist is I think much more important than it used to be.
我认为成为一名通才比以前重要得多。
And if I'm putting together a product team today, I would re-obsess about getting as many skill sets as possible for each person I hire.
如果我今天要组建一个产品团队，我会重新痴迷于为我雇用的每个人获得尽可能多的技能。
They should know how architecting a system works, preferably they should know the sign, they should have product taste, they should know how to talk to users.
他们应该知道系统架构是如何工作的，最好他们应该知道标志，他们应该有产品品味，他们应该知道如何与用户交谈。
I think everyone should know a bit of all of that, preferably.
我认为最好每个人都应该了解一些。
Lenny Rachitsky: Easier said than done.
Lenny Rachitsky：说起来容易做起来难。
It's hard to find people that know all these things.
很难找到了解所有这些事情的人。
So let's segue to hiring and how you hire.
那么让我们继续讨论招聘以及如何招聘。
How many people do you have at this point?
目前你们有多少人？
Is that something you share?
这是你分享的东西吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: 18.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：18。
Okay.
好的。
Wow.
哇。
I love that you...
我喜欢你...
It sounded like you're about to say, "Oh, we have a hundred people now." No, 18.
听起来你好像要说：“哦，我们现在有一百个人了。”不，18。
Okay, so you went from 15 to 18.
好吧，你从 15 岁变成了 18 岁。
Okay, great.
好的，太好了。
So what do you look for when you're hiring people?
那么，当你招聘员工时，你会寻找什么？
The way I saw you describe it on Twitter is you look for cracked engineers, the best crack team in Europe, things like that.
我看到你在推特上描述的方式是你寻找优秀的工程师，欧洲最好的优秀团队，诸如此类的东西。
I guess just specifically what are you looking for when you're hiring?
我想您在招聘时具体要寻找什么？
Anton Osika: I think the most important thing is that people care a lot and they're not just like, "Oh, I'm here for a job.
Anton Osika：我认为最重要的是人们非常关心，他们不仅仅是说，“哦，我来这里是为了一份工作。
I'm here for being just a passenger on this journey," but everyone should really care about the product, the users and care a ton about the team, how the team works together and that you're always contributing to making the team work more productively together and that care or preferably obsession gets you a very long way and then you do often want to have absolute superpower in some dimension to be able to understand and do as many possible things as possible, have this generalist brain that quickly learns any skill but be super, super good in one dimension.
我来这里只是为了成为这段旅程中的一个乘客，”但是每个人都应该真正关心产品、用户并非常关心团队，团队如何合作，并且你总是为使团队更高效地合作做出贡献，这种关心或最好的痴迷会让你走得很远，然后你经常希望在某个方面拥有绝对的超能力，以便能够理解并做尽可能多的事情，拥有这个通才的大脑，可以快速学习任何技能，但在某一方面超级非常出色维度。
And for us that's mostly cramming as much out of AI, out of the large language models and understanding the entire parameter space of what you can change to make our product perform better.
对我们来说，这主要是从人工智能、大型语言模型中塞满尽可能多的内容，并了解可以更改的整个参数空间，以使我们的产品性能更好。
Lenny Rachitsky: So, how do you actually test for these things?
Lenny Rachitsky：那么，你如何实际测试这些东西呢？
Some of these things describe, I think everyone's looking for, they care about the user, they want to collaborate well.
其中一些事情描述了，我认为每个人都在寻找，他们关心用户，他们想要良好的协作。
Because you have 18 people building in a company that's growing more than a million ARR every week.
因为公司有 18 名员工，每周的 ARR 增长超过 100 万。
That's an absurd scale and the people you have found are clearly world-class and I think a lot of people are going to want to hire the type of people you're hiring.
这是一个荒谬的规模，而且你找到的人显然是世界一流的，我认为很多人都会想雇用你正在雇用的类型的人。
So when you're actually interviewing, how do you suss out some of these things like their AI cramming skills, their team building collaboration, what do you actually do?
所以，当你真正面试时，你如何弄清楚他们的人工智能填鸭技能、他们的团队建设协作等一些事情，你实际上做了什么？
Anton Osika: I ask people what they've done before and these people that I'm describing, they have often done something where they care a lot about what they've done before and dig into details about the technical things that they did.
Anton Osika：我问人们他们以前做过什么，我所描述的这些人，他们经常做一些非常关心他们以前做过的事情，并深入研究他们所做的技术事情的细节。
And then we do the normal thing of showing a very hard problem that is a bit unorthodox that someone hasn't seen before preferably and see how they think through thinking research through that.
然后我们会做正常的事情，展示一个非常困难的问题，这个问题有点非正统，人们最好以前没有见过，并通过思考研究来看看他们是如何思考的。
Then something that I think is more uncommon is that we do, I pretty much always have people join the work simulation for at least a day, often a full week.
然后我认为更不常见的是我们这样做，我几乎总是让人们加入工作模拟至少一天，通常是整整一周。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Okay, so work trial.
好吧，那么工作试用吧。
That's awesome.
太棒了。
So basically they work with the team for at least a day.
所以基本上他们和团队一起工作至少一天。
You said sometimes a week, and I love this point you made about they care deeply about something they previously worked on and you look for just obsession with the thing that they built last or something they worked on.
你说有时一周一次，我喜欢你所说的这一点，即他们非常关心他们以前所做的事情，而你寻找的是对他们最后建造的东西或他们所做的事情的痴迷。
What percentage are engineers of these 18?
这 18 人中工程师所占比例是多少？
Anton Osika: So 12 at least write code at least part-time.
Anton Osika：所以 12 个人至少兼职编写代码。
Lenny Rachitsky: 12 out of 18.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：18 分中的 12 分。
Okay, cool.
好吧，酷。
When we were setting up, you're like, "Oh, our engineer's creating content now." I think that's a cool example of how people do a lot of different things.
当我们进行设置时，您会说，“哦，我们的工程师现在正在创建内容。”我认为这是一个很酷的例子，说明人们如何做很多不同的事情。
Also.
还。
Okay, so I have your job posting that you shared once of the actual job description.
好的，我收到了您分享过的职位发布的实际职位描述。
I'm going to read a few lines from it.
我要读其中的几行。
It's very inspired by Shackleton, right?
它的灵感来自沙克尔顿，对吧？
Lenny Rachitsky: Would you agree?
莱尼·拉奇茨基：你同意吗？
Cool.
凉爽的。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
By the way, did you write this or did you have AI write this job description where you create an engineering job description?
顺便问一下，这个职位描述是你写的还是让人工智能在你创建工程职位描述时写的？
In fact, let me read it to you.
事实上，让我读给你听。
I don't even know, you may not know what M you're referring to.
我什至不知道，你可能不知道你指的是什么。
I'll read a few lines here.
我将在这里读几行。
"Long hours, high pace, candidates must thrive under a high urgency under AGI timelines approaching, difficult mission ahead, honor and recognition in case of success, those seeking comfortable work need not apply." And then there's a few other things, "Collaboration with other exceptional minds, purpose larger than any normal engineering role, generous share in the venture success." Amazing.
“工作时间长，节奏快，候选人必须在 AGI 时间表逼近的情况下在高度紧迫的情况下茁壮成长，前方的任务艰巨，一旦成功就会获得荣誉和认可，那些寻求舒适工作的人不需要申请。”然后还有其他一些事情，“与其他杰出人才的合作，比任何正常工程角色更大的目标，在风险成功中慷慨分享。”惊人的。
Anton Osika: Yeah, so I did get some help with the formatting of this, but then it was mostly me doing the exact phrasing of the different sentences.
Anton Osika：是的，所以我确实在格式化方面得到了一些帮助，但主要是我对不同句子进行了精确的措辞。
Lenny Rachitsky: So good.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太好了。
And I love that to some people it's going to be like, "Holy shit, I'm not signing up for this." But to a lot of people, the people you want is like, "Yes, this is exactly what I want to be doing."
我喜欢对某些人来说，“天哪，我不会报名参加这个。”但对很多人来说，你想要的人就像是，“是的，这正是我想做的事。”
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, cool.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，酷。
So it feels like one of the elements of hiring here is, create a really good filter to be clear about just how intense this is so that the people that want that are the ones drawn to you.
因此，感觉这里招聘的要素之一是，创建一个非常好的过滤器，以明确招聘的强度，以便想要的人被你吸引。
Okay.
好的。
And then you're also, you're in Sweden, fastest growing startup in Europe ever thoughts on building in Europe slash Sweden versus the US slash San Francisco?
然后你也在瑞典，欧洲发展最快的初创公司有没有想过在欧洲建设瑞典，而不是在美国建设旧金山？
Anton Osika: Yeah, so this ambition level that you're talking about in the job ad is more uncommon in Sweden and I think that is the biggest unlock that someone like me, sees that this is the time in human history when you have the most impact for a worked hour and that's why we have to be super ambitious, just up the ambition level and then we can maybe retire and have AI take care of most things in society and inspiring people to be this ambitious in a place where the average ambition is lower but the talent, the raw talent is much more available, is a great recipe.
安东·奥西卡：是的，所以你在招聘广告中提到的这种雄心水平在瑞典并不常见，我认为这是最大的解锁，像我这样的人看到，这是人类历史上对工作时间影响最大的时期，这就是为什么我们必须非常雄心勃勃，只要提高雄心水平，然后我们也许可以退休，让人工智能照顾社会上的大部分事情，并激励人们在一个平均雄心较低但人才、原始人才的地方变得如此雄心勃勃。更容易获得，是一个很棒的食谱。
I think that's a great recipe.
我认为这是一个很棒的食谱。
And that's, I think it's some kind of advantage there.
那就是，我认为这是某种优势。
It is a bit of a double-edged sword but it's some kind of advantage.
这是一把双刃剑，但它是某种优势。
Lenny Rachitsky: So what I'm hearing is there's incredible people in Europe, they're just not, they're harder to find and what I'm hearing is the key is how do you suss them out and get them to want to talk to you?
莱尼·拉奇茨基：所以我听到的是，欧洲有一些令人难以置信的人，只是他们不是，他们更难找到，我听到的关键是你如何弄清楚他们并让他们愿意与你交谈？
Anton Osika: Most people in Europe, they haven't thought that, "Oh, going on an extremely ambitious mission is what I want to do." So that's figuring out who those are is a big part of it.
安东·奥西卡：大多数欧洲人都没有想过，“哦，执行一项极其雄心勃勃的使命就是我想做的事。”所以弄清楚这些人是谁是其中的一个重要部分。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Okay.
好的。
I want to talk about prioritization.
我想谈谈优先级。
I imagine all these things that I just shared about just how ambitious this mission is, how much you're doing the last piece of software, you must have a bazillion things that people ask you to build that you want to build.
我想象我刚刚分享的所有这些事情都是关于这个使命有多么雄心勃勃，你在最后一个软件上做了多少工作，你必须有无数人们要求你构建你想要构建的东西。
What's your approach to deciding what to prioritize and actually build?
您决定优先考虑和实际构建什么的方法是什么？
Anton Osika: Just top line?
Anton Osika：只是顶线？
I think identifying what is the biggest bottleneck, what's the biggest problem and iterating fast on saying, "Okay, this is the biggest problem, let's really, really solve that problem." And then picking in the next one and not overthinking, not dreaming out the long roadmap, that's my .
我认为确定最大的瓶颈是什么，最大的问题是什么，然后快速迭代说：“好吧，这是最大的问题，让我们真正真正地解决这个问题。”然后选择下一个，不要过度思考，不要梦想出漫长的路线图，这就是我的。
There's a very, very simple algorithm.
有一个非常非常简单的算法。
Understanding what is the, mostly the biggest problem is not always a simple problem I think.
我认为理解什么是最大的问题并不总是一个简单的问题。
Yeah, so we spend time as one should on talking to users, reading up on what people are writing.
是的，所以我们花时间与用户交谈，阅读人们所写的内容。
We have the feature board for where people do a lot of requests, as you say.
正如您所说，我们有一个功能板，可以让人们提出很多请求。
And then when we pick one of the problems, we are quite engineering-led.
然后，当我们选择其中一个问题时，我们是相当以工程为主导的。
For a product like ours, it's hard to be have product managers that are not engineers say, oh, this is what we should do now because the right solution to the problem might be entangled in things that are technical details.
对于我们这样的产品，很难让不是工程师的产品经理说，哦，这就是我们现在应该做的，因为问题的正确解决方案可能会纠缠在技术细节的东西上。
Anton Osika: They might be entangled in technical details of like, "Okay, yes, this is the biggest problem, but we should have this larger technical initiative that's going to solve all of these problems." So it's quite engineering-led compared to many other product companies.
Anton Osika：他们可能会纠结于技术细节，比如“好吧，是的，这是最大的问题，但我们应该有一个更大的技术计划来解决所有这些问题。”因此，与许多其他产品公司相比，它相当以工程为主导。
Lenny Rachitsky: As it should.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：应该如此。
I'd be worried if you guys had a product manager at this point, that wouldn't make no sense right now.
我会担心如果你们现在有产品经理，那现在就没有意义了。
I imagine the answer is it's chaos and there's no actual defined process, but just what does it look like generally?
我想答案是它很混乱并且没有实际定义的流程，但它通常是什么样子的？
What's kind of the cadence you guys operate on?
你们的操作节奏是什么样的？
How do you take an idea to build it, spec it, launch it?
你如何利用一个想法来构建它、规范它、启动它？
Just what does that look like if you have something?
如果你有东西的话，那会是什么样子？
Anton Osika: If you look back three months, we mainly said, "Okay, let's do this weekly planning." We do have a big jam board where we have all the main problems and then we have kind of ranked them which else do we focus or when we focus on next or this week?
Anton Osika：如果你回顾三个月，我们主要是说，“好吧，让我们做每周计划。”我们确实有一个大的堵塞板，其中包含所有主要问题，然后我们对它们进行了排序，我们还关注哪些问题，或者下周或本周我们关注什么？
And then we have a demo where we say, "Okay, these are things we ship this week." So to get everyone on the same page, we do have a bit more of a roadmap now, where we say we are going to make so sure you can support custom domains.
然后我们有一个演示，我们说：“好吧，这些是我们本周发布的东西。”因此，为了让每个人都达成共识，我们现在确实有更多的路线图，我们说我们将确保您可以支持自定义域。
Next, they're going to add collaboration after that.
接下来，他们将增加合作。
And the biggest problem now or the biggest initiative now that solves the biggest problem is making the system more agentic and that has a bit of a longer roadmap, but we still do the cadence of weekly planning.
现在最大的问题或者现在解决最大问题的最大举措是让系统更加代理，并且路线图有点长，但我们仍然按照每周计划的节奏进行。
These are the things we're focusing on.
这些是我们正在关注的事情。
This week, it's mostly...
这周，主要是...
There's a good word for this that I would want your help with, but polish, we were fixing the bugs and polish this week and that was the planning on Monday.
有一个很好的词来形容这一点，我希望你能帮忙，但是润色，我们这周正在修复错误并润色，这就是周一的计划。
Lenny Rachitsky: That was actually this week was polish, polish week.
Lenny Rachitsky：实际上这周是波兰周。
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
How far is this roadmap that you are now having?
您现在的路线图进展到什么程度了？
Anton Osika: I mean it's clear over the coming month, but it stretches out three months, but in one month it's probably going to look a bit different.
Anton Osika：我的意思是，在接下来的一个月里，情况会很明显，但会持续三个月，但在一个月内，情况可能会有所不同。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
And then what are the tools you use just for folks that want to understand the latest tools?
那么对于那些想要了解最新工具的人来说，您使用的工具是什么？
So you said FigJam, what else is in that stack of tools?
所以你说FigJam，那堆工具里还有什么？
Anton Osika: I mean we do so many things in our company in Linear because it's just amazing product.
Anton Osika：我的意思是，我们在 Linear 公司做了很多事情，因为它是令人惊叹的产品。
So we do talent application tracking in Linear and after going through and this thing, lot of the other custom-made tools for that Linear and then FigJam.
因此，我们在 Linear 中进行人才申请跟踪，在经历了这件事之后，我们为该 Linear 和 FigJam 提供了许多其他定制工具。
Lenny Rachitsky: So simple.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：就这么简单。
How soon until one of your engineers is an agent engineer, an AI Engineer, do you have a sense?
距离你的一位工程师成为代理工程师、人工智能工程师，你有感觉吗？
Anton Osika: I love to dig into what does that question actually mean?
Anton Osika：我喜欢深入研究这个问题的真正含义是什么？
I think we've been talking about, Oh, AI that would require something playing chess, that's AI.
我想我们一直在谈论，哦，人工智能需要下棋，这就是人工智能。
If a computer can play chess, that's AI and now that's like, Oh no, that's a chess program and which always shifting this forward and forward.
如果计算机可以下国际象棋，那就是人工智能，现在就像，哦不，这是一个国际象棋程序，它总是不断地向前推进。
I think anything that a human doesn't do is just a smart computer system, right?
我认为任何人类不做的事情都只是智能计算机系统，对吗？
When is an software engineer and agent, I think it's always going to be just we're building in...
什么时候是软件工程师和代理，我认为这总是我们正在构建的......
Lovable is just an interface that humans interact with to create the software that they want and then how we solve that, we said going to be an agent under some definition.
Lovable 只是一个界面，人类可以与之交互以创建他们想要的软件，然后我们如何解决这个问题，我们说将成为某种定义下的代理。
Yeah, sure.
是的，当然。
I think so, but that's less important to me.
我想是的，但这对我来说不太重要。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, I like that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，我喜欢这个。
Let me ask this, you guys are moving super fast, scaling like crazy.
让我问一下，你们的行动速度非常快，疯狂地扩张。
You described a little bit about your process, weekly planning, FigJam board of ideas and now there's a roadmap that you're kind of thinking out in the future.
您描述了一些有关您的流程、每周计划、FigJam 创意板的信息，现在您正在考虑未来的路线图。
Is there anything else that you found helps you move this fast that gives you a lot of leverage over the small team you have to ship quickly and move fast that you haven't already mentioned?
您发现还有什么其他事情可以帮助您如此快速地行动，使您对必须快速交付和快速行动的小团队有很大的影响力，而您还没有提到吗？
Anton Osika: We work from the office most of the time.
Anton Osika：我们大部分时间都在办公室工作。
I think it's pretty nice.
我认为这非常好。
Then you can say like, "Hey, I think we're thinking wrong about this thing," or, "Shouldn't we actually do this other thing?" And especially I think lunch, eating lunch together is a pretty productive hour where you're cross pollinating.
然后你可以说，“嘿，我认为我们对这件事的想法是错误的，”或者，“我们实际上不应该做另一件事吗？”尤其是我认为午餐，一起吃午餐是一个非常富有成效的时间，你可以在其中进行异花授粉。
I mean people are constantly thinking subconsciously as well about how to solve these different problems and which the most important ones are.
我的意思是，人们在潜意识中不断思考如何解决这些不同的问题以及哪些是最重要的问题。
And then being in office has this focus or most of the time usually focus, but you also have this high bandwidth where everyone has to be down structured communication.
然后在办公室有这个焦点，或者大多数时候通常是焦点，但你也有这样的高带宽，每个人都必须进行结构化沟通。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
The answer to the CEO of a company that's one of the most advanced AI tools in the world is one of your answers to how to move fast is lunch together.
世界上最先进的人工智能工具之一的公司首席执行官对如何快速行动的答案之一就是一起吃午餐。
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
That's so human and so it makes all the sense in the world, but I love that that's still a part of this.
这是非常人性化的，所以它在世界上是有意义的，但我喜欢它仍然是其中的一部分。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
You talked about this kind of on the same thread you talked about if you were to start a team, like a new product team today, say you were head of product somewhere or head of RPM, VP of product somewhere building a new product team, scaling a product team, what would you do going forward that's different from what people have done in the past in terms of who you're hiring, how you're structuring them, that kind of thing?
你在同一主题上谈到了这一点，如果你要组建一个团队，比如今天的一个新产品团队，假设你是某处的产品负责人或 RPM 负责人、某处的产品副总裁，建立一个新的产品团队，扩大产品团队，你会做什么与人们过去所做的不同，比如你要雇用谁，你如何构建他们，诸如此类的事情？
Just what do you think people should be thinking as they build product teams going forward?
您认为人们在未来建立产品团队时应该思考什么？
Knowing tools like Lovable exist and all the other stuff that's going on.
了解像 Lovable 这样的工具的存在以及所有其他正在发生的事情。
Anton Osika: I mean everyone should be excited about using AI.
Anton Osika：我的意思是每个人都应该对使用人工智能感到兴奋。
I think that's a pretty big ones.
我认为这是一个相当大的。
And then the team working really well together is, like the lunch, you have to sit down and solve problems together.
然后团队合作得非常好，就像午餐一样，你必须坐下来一起解决问题。
The bottleneck for most products these days is not going to be as much on engineering, but having good taste, good intuition about your users.
如今，大多数产品的瓶颈不再是工程，而是拥有良好的品味和对用户的良好直觉。
And that, engineers and everyone preferably in the team should have that willingness at least to want to go through that motion and listen to the users and truly understand what they care about.
而且，工程师和团队中的每个人（最好是团队中的每个人）都应该至少愿意完成该动议并倾听用户的意见并真正理解他们所关心的内容。
Lenny Rachitsky: Well it's kind of like the background of most of the engineers and people you've hired.
Lenny Rachitsky：嗯，这有点像您雇用的大多数工程师和人员的背景。
Is there anything in common?
有什么共同点吗？
Are they just super impressive humans generally, like champions of programming contests, stuff like that?
他们是不是一般都是令人印象深刻的人，比如编程竞赛的冠军之类的？
I don't know.
我不知道。
What are some attributes of the folks you've hired so far?
到目前为止，您雇用的员工有哪些特质？
Anton Osika: I think raw cognitive capability is the strongest, the strongest correlate of being at Lovable.
Anton Osika：我认为原始认知能力是最强大的，与 Lovable 的关联性最强。
But there is this startup mindset that I think is also very strong.
但我认为这种创业心态也非常强烈。
Being much more interested in moving very fast and iterating fast, then having a lot of structure, a lot of process and thinking about the business as a whole.
对快速移动和快速迭代更感兴趣，然后拥有大量的结构、大量的流程并从整体上思考业务。
More than thinking about my specific profession, my specific craft that I'm seeing myself wanting to dig into on me.
不仅仅是考虑我的特定职业、我的特定技能，我发现自己想要深入研究我的技能。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Okay.
好的。
So smart, very smart entrepreneurial, acts like an owner, isn't just like, this isn't just a job.
如此聪明，非常聪明的企业家，表现得像一个所有者，不仅仅是，这不仅仅是一份工作。
But they feel like they actually have agency.
但他们觉得自己确实有代理权。
Okay, this is great.
好的，这太棒了。
There's something you said kind of along these lines that I think is important that one of the things that gets you excited about what you're building is giving people super powers and especially people that don't add a code, basically 99% of people.
你所说的类似内容我认为很重要，让你对你正在构建的东西感到兴奋的事情之一就是赋予人们超能力，特别是那些不添加代码的人，基本上是 99% 的人。
Is there anything along those lines that you think is important to share?
您认为有什么值得分享的重要内容吗？
Anton Osika: It's very clear to most people who have been engineers or been founders, that there's so many that have failed in their endeavors because they didn't have someone that know how to solve the technical parts.
Anton Osika：对于大多数曾经担任过工程师或创始人的人来说，很明显，有很多人在他们的努力中失败了，因为他们没有人知道如何解决技术部分。
And now that we're close to having people know that this exists and they solve everything, it's going to be an Cambrian explosion of entrepreneurship and better software product.
现在我们已经接近让人们知道这个存在并且他们解决了所有问题，这将是创业精神和更好的软件产品的寒武纪爆发。
We're not going to settle for all the annoying bad technology that we use today.
我们不会满足于今天使用的所有烦人的糟糕技术。
And everyone who has an idea is going to say, "Okay, I'm going to build this thing and show you that this is the best version of the product or what our company should be doing," instead of having long meetings or writing up documents.
每个有想法的人都会说，“好吧，我要构建这个东西并向您展示这是该产品的最佳版本或我们公司应该做的事情”，而不是召开长时间的会议或编写文档。
So it's going to be empowering across a lot of different professions and places in the world.
因此，它将为世界上许多不同职业和地方提供支持。
Lenny Rachitsky: What's next for Lovable?
Lenny Rachitsky：《Lovable》的下一步是什么？
What's the next few things they might launch as this episode comes out?
随着这一集的播出，他们接下来可能会推出什么？
Anton Osika: As I mentioned this agentic behavior, and when I say agentic, what it means is that you give more freedom to the system to decide what happens next.
Anton Osika：正如我提到的这种代理行为，当我说代理时，它的意思是你给系统更多的自由来决定接下来会发生什么。
It might want to write a test, run those tests and say like, "Oh, the test failed, let's fix those." So that's one of the big unlocks for getting further faster.
它可能想要编写一个测试，运行这些测试并说，“哦，测试失败了，让我们修复它们。”因此，这是获得更快速度的重要解锁之一。
And then there's some more obvious things that you want to do to go all the way to easily go all the way to making money with Lovable.
然后还有一些更明显的事情是你想做的，以便一路轻松地一路通过 Lovable 赚钱。
And that's like how do you set up so that it's hosted on your specific domain?
这就像如何设置才能将其托管在您的特定域上？
How do you collaborate there seamlessly with your team and making that is here so that those are just obvious things and something we're thinking about is to help founders succeed after they built their first version.
您如何与您的团队无缝协作，并在此处实现这一点，以便这些都是显而易见的事情，我们正在考虑的事情是帮助创始人在构建第一个版本后取得成功。
And how do they get more users?
他们如何获得更多用户？
How do they get feedback?
他们如何获得反馈？
How do they get the word out if they build something useful?
如果他们构建了一些有用的东西，他们如何宣传？
Lenny Rachitsky: I was just going to say that and that's exactly where my mind went is everyone's going to be building all these things.
Lenny Rachitsky：我正要这么说，而这正是我的想法：每个人都会建造所有这些东西。
No one's ever going to get any traction with these tools.
没有人会对这些工具产生任何吸引力。
No one knows how to find users, get anyone to basically go to market.
没有人知道如何找到用户，如何让任何人基本上进入市场。
And growth is a whole different skill.
成长是一种完全不同的技能。
So that is so cool that you're thinking about that.
所以你正在考虑这个真是太酷了。
How do we run some paid ads for you?
我们如何为您投放一些付费广告？
How do we think about SEO?
我们如何看待SEO？
How do we think about word of mouth, reality referrals?
我们如何看待口碑、现实推荐？
That is very cool.
这非常酷。
Okay.
好的。
Anton Osika: Yeah, we already have playbooks that we help the people building with how do you do those things that you can find up on our blog?
Anton Osika：是的，我们已经有了帮助人们构建的剧本，您可以在我们的博客上找到如何做这些事情？
Lenny Rachitsky: Interestingly, this makes me want to buy some meta stock because all these apps that everyone's building, they're going to be running paid ads on Facebook and Google.
Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是，这让我想购买一些元股票，因为每个人都在构建的所有这些应用程序都将在 Facebook 和 Google 上运行付费广告。
Oh my god, what a good business those other guys get.
天啊，其他人的生意真是太好了。
I want to come back to, you said that you can work on your existing code base.
我想回到你说的，你可以在现有的代码库上工作。
This is actually a big question for a lot of people.
这其实是很多人的一个大问题。
They see all these tools, they're all amazing for prototypes and concepting.
他们看到了所有这些工具，它们对于原型和概念来说都令人惊叹。
You talked about how you can actually do this within your existing code base, use Lovable.
您谈到了如何在现有代码库中使用 Lovable 来实际执行此操作。
Anton Osika: Let me correct you there.
Anton Osika：让我纠正你一下。
You cannot use it on any existing code base.
您不能在任何现有代码库上使用它。
Anton Osika: We kind of have a research preview of importing your code base, but what you can do is if you start in Lovable, then you can have engineers editing it in whatever tool they want to use for editing it.
Anton Osika：我们对导入代码库有一个研究预览，但你可以做的是，如果你从 Lovable 开始，那么你可以让工程师用他们想要用来编辑的任何工具来编辑它。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, cool.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，酷。
That's great clarification.
这是很好的澄清。
So I guess just for people, because most listeners here are not building something brand new, they're working within an existing product.
所以我想只是针对人们，因为这里的大多数听众并不是在构建全新的东西，他们是在现有的产品中工作。
So you're saying that that is coming, you can use Lovable in the future in some form with your existing app and product?
所以你是说，这即将到来，你将来可以在现有的应用程序和产品中以某种形式使用 Lovable 吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, that's huge.
Lenny Rachitsky：哇，那太巨大了。
Okay.
好的。
Because basically most people, so that's going to be a big deal.
因为基本上是大多数人，所以这将是一件大事。
Okay.
好的。
Final question.
最后一个问题。
We have the segment on this podcast called Failure Corner, where most people come to this podcast, they show all these stories of success and everything's going great, and here's all the things always winning.
我们在这个播客上有一个名为“失败角落”的部分，大多数人都会来看这个播客，他们展示了所有这些成功的故事，一切都进展顺利，而这里是所有总是获胜的事情。
You guys, this is a good example, just up into the right, the fastest growing product ever.
你们，这是一个很好的例子，刚刚进入正确的、有史以来增长最快的产品。
What's an example when something totally failed in the course of your career and what did you learn from that?
在您的职业生涯中，有什么事情完全失败的例子吗？您从中学到了什么？
Anton Osika: I am a bit hard-pressed to find something that totally failed, but I think there's a bit of a product lesson where I was the first employee at an AI startup here in Stockholm called Summer Labs, and the premise was just, okay, so humans learn in different ways.
Anton Osika：我很难找到完全失败的东西，但我认为有一些产品课程，我是斯德哥尔摩一家名为 Summer Labs 的人工智能初创公司的第一位员工，前提是，好吧，所以人类以不同的方式学习。
If you personalize, then you get two standard deviations more effective learning.
如果你个性化，那么你会得到两个标准差的更有效的学习。
So there are a lot of products like education software that helps you learn that is not personalized.
所以有很多像教育软件这样的产品可以帮助你学习，但这些产品并不是个性化的。
And we were building an API to personalize learning and the AI and so on, it was pretty good.
我们正在构建一个 API 来个性化学习和人工智能等，这非常好。
Anton Osika: But the thing that we were doing in the end was to say like, Okay, here's this product.
Anton Osika：但我们最终所做的就是说，好吧，这是这个产品。
Someone has to build a product or some way to learn or be it like English thing Duolingo, and then the people that have that product have to use this advanced AI API to start making it personalized.
必须有人构建一个产品或某种学习方式，或者像英语的 Duolingo 一样，然后拥有该产品的人必须使用这个先进的 AI API 来开始使其个性化。
And it is very hard retrofitting like, oh, you have to switch out the engine and put in this AI.
这是非常困难的改造，就像，哦，你必须关闭引擎并放入这个人工智能。
And the big learning here is that it didn't work very well for the company.
这里最大的教训是它对公司来说效果不佳。
I mean, the company wasn't super successful in this.
我的意思是，该公司在这方面并不是非常成功。
The big learning is that you have to start with how is this product working end-to-end and then add AI or think where should we add AI?
最重要的学习是，你必须从这个产品端到端如何工作开始，然后添加人工智能，或者思考我们应该在哪里添加人工智能？
So that was a big learning for me that you really want to see what does the big picture of the user, what's the big picture of how do you think the user experience should be?
所以这对我来说是一个很大的学习，你真的想了解用户的总体情况是什么，你认为用户体验应该如何？
And then add something with AI to solve specific problems.
然后用人工智能添加一些东西来解决特定的问题。
And now Summer Labs is doing great, but it's not on top of that product specifically.
现在夏季实验室做得很好，但它还没有专门超越该产品。
Lenny Rachitsky: I think it's a lot of people hear this and they're like, of course, but I think it's so hard to actually remember this point when you have some cool tech and you're like, "Holy shit, everyone needs to try this.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为很多人听到这个之后都会想，当然，但是我认为当你拥有一些很酷的技术并且你会想，“天哪，每个人都需要尝试这个时，要真正记住这一点是非常困难的。
They're going to love it." And then you don't realize no one actually cares if it's not solving a problem for them.
他们会喜欢的。”然后你不会意识到没有人真正关心这是否没有为他们解决问题。
There's a lot of novelty products that everyone want to use for a little bit and then forget instant, I don't actually need this often.
有很多新奇的产品，每个人都想用一下，然后就忘记了，我实际上并不经常需要这些。
And so what this makes me think about is, there's all these product lessons for what is likely to help your product be successful.
因此，这让我想到的是，所有这些产品课程都可能有助于您的产品取得成功。
And an app like a tool like Lovable can help you do this because if someone is building something, you can guide them, Okay, what's the problem you're solving for somebody?
像 Lovable 这样的工具之类的应用程序可以帮助你做到这一点，因为如果有人正在构建某些东西，你可以指导他们，好吧，你正在为某人解决什么问题？
How many people have this problem?
有多少人有这个问题？
How much does this matter to them?
这对他们来说有多重要？
Anton Osika: Maybe we should add the Lenny mode.
Anton Osika：也许我们应该添加 Lenny 模式。
It activates in Lovable, it activates this product coach.
它在 Lovable 中激活，它激活了这个产品教练。
That would be infinite questions, like, "No, no, wait, hold on, why are you doing this?"
这将是无限的问题，比如，“不，不，等等，等等，你为什么要这样做？”
Lenny Rachitsky: Absolutely.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：当然。
Let's take a step back.
让我们退后一步。
Everyone's going to be like, ", get out of my way."
每个人都会说，“别挡我的路。”
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, exactly.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，完全正确。
What's your experiment plan?
你的实验计划是什么？
I think there's actually a big opportunity there to save people.
我认为这实际上是一个救人的好机会。
There's a play around with this thing and then there's like, okay, but really is this anything people actually want?
有人尝试过这个东西，然后就会想，好吧，但这真的是人们真正想要的吗？
Anton Osika: I love it.
安东·奥西卡：我喜欢它。
Can we call it Lenny mode?
我们可以称之为莱尼模式吗？
Is that fine with you?
你这样好吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: Let's do it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：让我们开始吧。
I'll license you no cost.
我将免费许可你。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
Okay.
好的。
We made a deal here.
我们在这里达成了协议。
Let's do it.
我们开始做吧。
Okay, Anton, is there anything else that you wanted to share?
好的，安东，你还有什么想分享的吗？
Anything you want to leave listeners with before I let you go and go to sleep?
在我让你去睡觉之前，你想留给听众什么？
Anton Osika: I think, again, the world is changing quickly and it's very fun.
Anton Osika：我再次认为，世界正在快速变化，而且非常有趣。
You should see that's like have fun in all of this change, and the best thing you can do for your current profession or if you want to have a new job is to be in the top 1% in knowing how to use AI tools.
您应该看到，这就像在所有这些变化中享受乐趣，对于您当前的职业或如果您想找到一份新工作，您可以做的最好的事情就是在了解如何使用人工智能工具方面跻身前 1%。
So go out there, use Loveable, use other AI tools, and become...
所以走出去，使用 Loveable，使用其他人工智能工具，并成为......
Make sure to understand or try to understand as much as possible in how to use them productively.
确保理解或尝试尽可能多地理解如何有效地使用它们。
That's something I tell all my friends generally, and I love the audience to know as well.
这是我通常告诉我所有朋友的事情，我也希望观众知道。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
Well, I got to try to make this even more specific for people.
好吧，我必须努力让这个对人们来说更加具体。
How do you know if you're in the top 1%?
如何知道自己是否属于前 1%？
What's a heuristic almost slash how do you get there?
什么是启发式几乎斜线你如何到达那里？
Is it just use it a hundred times a day?
难道一天就用一百次吗？
What else?
还有什么？
What can you recommend?
你能推荐什么？
Anton Osika: Yeah.
安东·奥西卡：是的。
I think if you spend a full week on trying to reach an outcome, the best way to learn is I want to do this thing and then I want to use AI to do that thing.
我认为如果你花一整周的时间来尝试达成一个结果，最好的学习方法就是我想做这件事，然后我想用人工智能来做那件事。
And you've spent a full week, you are in the top 1% in the global population.
而你已经度过了整整一周，你已经跻身全球人口前 1% 之列。
And if you surround yourself with friends who have this obsession or they also care a lot about this, then you'd be quickly in the top 0.1%.
如果你周围都是有这种痴迷的朋友或者他们也非常关心这个，那么你很快就会跻身前 0.1%。
Lenny Rachitsky: So what I'm hearing is find a problem that can be solved, find a problem, a pain point for yourself or someone, and then end-to-end fully solve that problem.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以我听到的是找到一个可以解决的问题，找到一个问题，为你自己或某人找到一个痛点，然后端到端地完全解决这个问题。
Spend a week getting from idea to a thing that somebody's actually using and you're in the top 1%.
花一周的时间把想法变成别人实际使用的东西，你就跻身前 1% 之列了。
Anton Osika: Yeah.
安东·奥西卡：是的。
I think...
我认为...
At the top, yeah, the top 1% by just spending a full week and asking AI if you don't understand.
在顶层，是的，只要花一整周的时间问人工智能（如果你不明白），就可以成为顶层的 1%。
So making sure that you understand.
所以确保你理解。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, that's the thing people forget.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，这就是人们忘记的事情。
You just ask.
你就问吧。
Would you ask the chat feature of Lovable in this case or would you go to Cloud or ChatGPT to ask for advice?
在这种情况下你会询问Lovable的聊天功能还是会去Cloud或ChatGPT寻求建议？
Anton Osika: I mean, my recommendation here, if you're in product is to use Lovable to build software and learn that AI tool and then you should use ChatMode and ChatMode, I have to add, is something you activate in your user profile.
Anton Osika：我的意思是，我的建议是，如果您在产品中使用 Lovable 来构建软件并学习 AI 工具，那么您应该使用 ChatMode，而 ChatMode，我必须补充一点，是您在用户配置文件中激活的东西。
It's not launched in the main product, so it's in labs, but if you add that flag, then you can use ChatMode.
它没有在主要产品中启动，所以它在实验室中，但如果您添加该标志，那么您可以使用 ChatMode。
If you want to learn some other AI tool, then you should ask that tool or ask Cloud, ChatGPT about how that topic, that domain works.
如果你想学习其他一些人工智能工具，那么你应该询问该工具或向 Cloud、ChatGPT 询问该主题、该领域是如何工作的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，太棒了。
Where can people find you?
人们在哪里可以找到你？
Where can they find Lovable and how can listeners be useful to you?
他们在哪里可以找到可爱的人以及听众如何对您有用？
Anton Osika: Lovable posts updates, and memes on Lovable underscore dev on Twitter, we post things on LinkedIn as well, and there are a lot of things coming out and changing in how we build software, so you can follow Lovable underscore dev and you can follow me at AntonOsika at Twitter.
Anton Osika：Lovable 在 Twitter 上发布了有关 Lovable underscore dev 的更新和模因，我们也在 LinkedIn 上发布了一些内容，并且我们构建软件的方式发生了很多变化，因此您可以关注 Lovable underscore dev，也可以在 Twitter 上关注我的 AntonOsika。
I'd love more feedback on where people see this is a huge change for them.
我希望获得更多关于人们认为这对他们来说是一个巨大变化的反馈。
There are a lot of people posting about that on Twitter, but we have a Discord where you can share like, "Oh, this is how I use Lovable.
有很多人在 Twitter 上发布了相关内容，但我们有一个 Discord，您可以在其中分享，比如“哦，这就是我使用 Lovable 的方式。
It was super useful to me." And feedback.lovable.dev can ask for new features.
这对我来说非常有用。” Feedback.lovable.dev 可以请求新功能。
There's a lot of people asking and uploading what features you want next.
有很多人询问并上传您下一步想要什么功能。
And that's super useful.
这非常有用。
That's the most important thing for us.
这对我们来说是最重要的。
We just want to solve people's problems.
我们只是想解决人们的问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Anton, you're doing incredible work.
安东，你的工作非常出色。
What a journey.
多么美妙的旅程啊。
I'm excited to have you back someday when we see more chapters of this journey.
当我们看到这段旅程的更多章节时，我很高兴有一天你能回来。
Lenny Rachitsky: As do we all.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我们大家也是如此。
That's why people listen to this podcast.
这就是人们收听这个播客的原因。
Anton, thank you so much for being here.
安东，非常感谢你来到这里。
Lenny Rachitsky: Bye everyone.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：大家再见。
Thank you so much for listening.
非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lenny'sPodcast.com.
您可以在 Lenny'sPodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。