Behind the scenes of Calendly’s rapid growth | Annie Pearl (CPO)

Annie Pearl: Strategy is really just an integrated set of choices that outline how you're going to win in whatever marketplace you choose.

Annie Pearl：战略实际上只是一组综合的选择，概述了您将如何在您选择的任何市场中获胜。

And so, a good product strategy is going to answer questions like what's your winning aspiration?

因此，良好的产品策略将回答诸如您的制胜愿望是什么？

But maybe more importantly, where are you going to play?

但也许更重要的是，你要去哪里玩？

What are the markets you're going to go after?

您要关注哪些市场？

What are the segments of those markets?

这些市场有哪些细分市场？

What are the personas in the segments of those markets?

这些市场细分中的人物角色是什么？

And then, how are you going to win with a target audience?

然后，你将如何赢得目标受众？

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard one experiences building and growing today's most successful products.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客，我在这里采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，从他们构建和发展当今最成功产品的艰辛经验中学习。

Today, my guest is Annie Pearl.

今天，我的嘉宾是安妮·珀尔。

Annie is currently chief product officer at Calendly.

Annie 目前是 Calendly 的首席产品官。

Before that, she was chief product officer at Glassdoor.

在此之前，她曾担任 Glassdoor 的首席产品官。

And before, that she was director of product management at Fox.

此前，她曾担任福克斯的产品管理总监。

She's also a member of Skip, a community for chief product officers, and she's on the board of two different companies.

她还是首席产品官社区 Skip 的成员，并且是两家不同公司的董事会成员。

Lenny: In our conversation, we cover a lot of ground, including how Calendly builds product, how Calendly has grown, including the wild story of how they got their first 1,000 users, and also how they built a sales team on top of what historically has been a very product-led growth company.

Lenny：在我们的谈话中，我们涵盖了很多内容，包括 Calendly 如何构建产品、Calendly 如何成长、他们如何获得前 1,000 个用户的疯狂故事，以及他们如何在一家历史上以产品为导向的成长型公司的基础上建立销售团队。

Annie also shares a ton of great advice on how to get into product management.

安妮还分享了大量关于如何进入产品管理的好建议。

I learned a ton from Annie and I know you'll too.

我从安妮身上学到了很多东西，我知道你也会的。

Annie also shares a few killer tips for using Calendly, which I loved.

Annie 还分享了一些使用我喜欢的 Calendly 的杀手级技巧。

And so, with all that, I bring you Annie Pearl through a short word from our wonderful sponsors.

因此，我要向您介绍安妮·珀尔（Annie Pearl），我们出色的赞助商的简短致辞。

Lenny: Today's episode is brought to you by Miro, an online collaborative whiteboard that's designed specifically for teams like yours.

Lenny：今天的节目是由 Miro 为您带来的，Miro 是一款专为像您这样的团队设计的在线协作白板。

I have a quick request.

我有一个快速请求。

Head on over to my Miro board at miro.com/lenny and let me know which guests you'd want me to have on this year.

请访问 miro.com/lenny 上的 Miro 板，让我知道您今年希望我邀请哪些嘉宾。

I've already gotten a bunch of great suggestions, which you'll see when you go there, so just keep it coming.

我已经收到了很多很好的建议，当你去那里时你会看到这些建议，所以请继续提供。

And while you're on the Miro board, I encourage you to play around with the tool.

当您在 Miro 板上时，我鼓励您尝试使用该工具。

It's a great shared space to capture ideas, get feedback, and collaborate with your colleagues on anything that you're working on.

这是一个很棒的共享空间，可以用来捕捉想法、获取反馈以及与同事就您正在处理的任何事情进行协作。

Lenny: For example, with Miro, you can plan out next quarter's entire product strategy.

Lenny：比如说，有了Miro，你就可以规划出下个季度的整个产品策略。

You can start by brainstorming, using sticky notes, live reactions, a voting tool, even an estimation app to scope out your team's sprints.

您可以从集思广益开始，使用便利贴、实时反应、投票工具，甚至估算应用程序来确定团队的冲刺范围。

Then your whole distributed team can come together around wire frames, drive ideas with a pen tool, and then put full mocks right into the Miro board.

然后，您的整个分布式团队可以围绕线框聚集在一起，使用钢笔工具推动创意，然后将完整的模拟直接放入 Miro 板中。

And with one of Miro's readymade templates, you can go from discovery and research to product roadmaps to customer journey flows to final mocks, all in Miro.

借助 Miro 的现成模板之一，您可以从发现和研究到产品路线图、客户旅程流程再到最终模拟，一切都在 Miro 中进行。

Head on over to miro.com/lenny to leave your suggestions.

请访问 miro.com/lenny 留下您的建议。

That's M-I-R-O.com/lenny.

那是 M-I-R-O.com/lenny。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Coda.

莱尼：这一集是由 Coda 为您带来的。

You've heard me talk about how Coda is the dock that brings it all together and how can I help your team run smoother and be more efficient.

您听过我谈论 Coda 如何成为将所有功能整合在一起的码头，以及我如何帮助您的团队运行得更顺畅、更高效。

I know this firsthand because Coda does that for me.

我直接知道这一点，因为 Coda 为我做到了这一点。

I use Coda every day to wrangle my newsletter content calendar, my interview notes for podcasts, and to coordinate my sponsors.

我每天都使用 Coda 来整理我的时事通讯内容日历、播客采访笔记，并协调我的赞助商。

More recently, I actually wrote a whole post on how Coda's product team operates.

最近，我实际上写了一篇关于 Coda 产品团队如何运作的文章。

And within that post, they shared a dozen templates that they use internally to run their product team, including managing the roadmap, their OKR process, getting internal feedback, and essentially their whole product development process is done within Koda.

在那篇文章中，他们分享了十几个内部使用的模板来运行他们的产品团队，包括管理路线图、OKR 流程、获取内部反馈，基本上他们的整个产品开发流程都是在 Koda 内完成的。

Lenny: If your team's work is spread out across different documents and spreadsheets and a stack of workflow tools, that's why you need Koda.

Lenny：如果您团队的工作分散在不同的文档、电子表格和一堆工作流程工具中，那么您就需要 Koda。

Koda puts data in one centralized location regardless of format, eliminating roadblocks that can slow your team down.

Koda 将数据放在一个集中位置，无论其格式如何，从而消除了可能拖慢团队速度的障碍。

Koda allows your team to operate on the same information and collaborate in one place.

Koda 允许您的团队在一个地方处理相同的信息并进行协作。

Take advantage of the special limited time offer just for startups.

利用专为初创公司提供的特别限时优惠。

Sign up today at koda.io/lenny and get $1,000 start credit on your first statement.

立即在 koda.io/lenny 注册，即可在第一份账单上获得 1,000 美元的起始信用额。

That's C-O-D-A.io/lenny, the signup and get a startup credit of $1,000, koda.io/lenny.

这是 C-O-D-A.io/lenny，注册并获得 1,000 美元的启动信用，koda.io/lenny。

Lenny: Annie, welcome to the podcast.

莱尼：安妮，欢迎来到播客。

Annie Pearl: Thanks for having me, Lenny.

安妮·珀尔：谢谢你邀请我，莱尼。

Super excited to be here.

来到这里超级兴奋。

Lenny: I've been a big fan of yours from afar.

莱尼：我一直是你的忠实粉丝。

We've crossed paths a little bit on Reforge, on Twitter, probably been at events that maybe we didn't know each other at yet.

我们在 Reforge、Twitter 上有过一些交集，可能参加过一些我们还不认识的活动。

So, I'm really excited to finally be chatting, real life, in real time, at least.

所以，我真的很兴奋终于能在现实生活中聊天，至少是实时的。

Lenny: I've got a Calendly question to kick things off.

Lenny：我有一个 Calendly 问题来开始。

It feels like with Calendly one of the most awkward elements of it is I have to put the burden on someone else to book at Calendly.

感觉 Calendly 最尴尬的事情之一就是我必须把在 Calendly 预订的负担推给别人。

So, I'm sending a link and I haven't figured out a good way to send it to someone without it coming across like a power move.

因此，我正在发送一个链接，但我还没有找到一种好方法将其发送给某人，而又不会给人留下权力举动的印象。

So, my question to you is how do I send a Calendly to someone without it feeling bad?

所以，我向您提出的问题是，如何向某人发送 Calendly 而又不会让人感觉不舒服？

Annie Pearl: All right, well I love this question to kick us off.

安妮·珀尔：好吧，我喜欢用这个问题来开始我们的讨论。

We actually have a whole blog post about this if you're curious to learn more.

如果您想了解更多信息，我们实际上有一篇关于此的完整博客文章。

Annie Pearl: But I think that at a high level, I think I recommend first really just kind of opening the door for the person you're trying to schedule time with to share their availability first.

Annie Pearl：但我认为，在较高的层面上，我认为我建议首先为您想要安排时间的人打开大门，以便首先分享他们的空闲时间。

So instead of just sending the link, I usually start the email with something like looking forward to connecting, feel free to share, sometimes you're available or if easier, you can choose to find time on my calendar using the Calendly link here.

因此，我通常不会只发送链接，而是以诸如期待连接、随意分享、有时您有空或者如果更容易的话，您可以选择使用此处的 Calendly 链接在我的日历上查找时间之类的内容开始电子邮件。

So, opening the door to let them choose before you offer up your Calendly link, I think is a little bit of a subtle way to let them take the lead if they want.

因此，在你提供 Calendly 链接之前打开大门让他们选择，我认为这是一种微妙的方式，可以让他们在愿意的情况下发挥主导作用。

Annie Pearl: And the second piece I would recommend too is once you opened that door, you can further reduce the effort on the recipient by adding times you're available directly in the email.

Annie Pearl：我也推荐的第二件事是，一旦您打开那扇门，您可以通过直接在电子邮件中添加您的可用时间来进一步减少收件人的工作量。

So, when you go to share a Calendly link, there's an option to add times to email and you can then just paste those directly into the email you're creating, so that reduces yet another sort of point of friction to ask the user to click the link and get taken to Calendly.

因此，当您要共享 Calendly 链接时，可以选择向电子邮件添加时间，然后您可以将这些时间直接粘贴到您正在创建的电子邮件中，这样就减少了要求用户单击链接并进入 Calendly 的另一种摩擦点。

So, opening the door and then adding times to email are two things that I do to really make sure that it's not awkward and it doesn't put the burden on the other person.

因此，打开门然后添加电子邮件时间是我做的两件事，以真正确保这不会尴尬，并且不会给其他人带来负担。

Lenny: That is awesome advice.

莱尼：这是很棒的建议。

That first one is what I ended up doing actually.

第一个是我最终实际做的。

That's really interesting where you don't send the link immediately.

这真的很有趣，你不立即发送链接。

You first just ask, "Hey, send me your Calendly." And actually, I always say, "Send me your Calendly." I assume that's what they're using.

你首先只要问：“嘿，把你的 Calendly 发给我。”事实上，我总是说，“把你的 Calendly 发给我。”我想这就是他们正在使用的。

That's kind of funny.

这有点好笑。

Lenny: I don't even know what else is out there.

莱尼：我什至不知道外面还有什么。

Annie Pearl: That's good.

安妮·珀尔：那很好。

That's what we like to hear.

这就是我们喜欢听到的。

Lenny: Yeah, absolutely.

莱尼：是的，绝对是。

It's like its own word now.

现在就像它自己的话一样。

Okay, that was awesome.

好吧，那太棒了。

So, there's this already actionable advice for anyone listening.

因此，对于任何倾听的人来说，这是一个已经可行的建议。

Lenny: Transitioning a little bit to product, the main focus of chat, you transitioned into product from being a lawyer.

Lenny：稍微过渡到产品，聊天的主要焦点，你从律师过渡到产品。

You told me at one point that a lot of people ask you for advice about how to transition into product from other functions, especially non-technical functions as someone without a technical background.

您曾经告诉我，很多人向您询问如何从其他功能（尤其是没有技术背景的人的非技术功能）过渡到产品。

So, what advice do you give people when they ask you how to transition into a product role?

那么，当人们问你如何过渡到产品角色时，你会给他们什么建议呢？

Annie Pearl: I got what I'll call lucky, which is I kind of stumbled into product management after law school, joined the founding team of a startup and ended up doing product management there.

Annie Pearl：我得到了我所说的幸运，那就是我在法学院毕业后偶然进入了产品管理领域，加入了一家初创公司的创始团队，并最终在那里从事产品管理。

But when I think about folks who are looking to get in their product management, I think there's really two paths.

但当我想到那些想要进入产品管理领域的人时，我认为实际上有两条路。

I think one is more formal in nature.

我认为一种本质上更正式。

There are associate product manager programs out there and many scaled companies, Google, Meta.

那里有副产品经理计划，还有许多规模化的公司，比如谷歌、Meta。

All have APM programs that you can formally apply to.

所有项目都有您可以正式申请的 APM 计划。

And actually, when we were at Box, much earlier stage company than either of those companies I just mentioned, we actually created an APM program to help grow our bench of more junior PM.

事实上，当我们在 Box（比我刚才提到的任何一家公司都早得多的公司）工作时，我们实际上创建了一个 APM 计划来帮助培养我们的初级 PM 人员。

So, I think you can actually find APM programs even at smaller, earlier stage companies than even kind of big tech.

因此，我认为，即使在规模较小、处于早期阶段的公司中，实际上也可以找到 APM 项目，甚至比大型科技公司还要多。

So that's one, it's just formal APM programs.

这就是其中之一，它只是正式的 APM 计划。

Annie Pearl: I think another "more formal" way to get into PM is really by just directly applying to a junior PM role where there's no expectation of any sort of experience.

Annie Pearl：我认为进入 PM 的另一种“更正式”方式实际上是直接申请初级 PM 职位，不需要任何经验。

I've usually seen this work best when you're already working somewhere in some product adjacency.

我通常认为，当您已经在某些产品邻近的某个地方工作时，这种方法效果最好。

Maybe you're in customer support, implementation, or maybe you're a sales engineer.

也许您从事客户支持、实施工作，或者您是销售工程师。

But you can look at the internal job board and find junior PM roles that are posted and that's one way to make the move.

但你可以查看内部招聘委员会并找到已发布的初级 PM 职位，这是采取行动的一种方法。

So that's kind of on the formal side like APM programs and just applying via internal job boards.

因此，这属于正式方面，例如 APM 计划，只是通过内部招聘委员会进行申请。

Annie Pearl: I think on the informal side, really two suggestions here.

Annie Pearl：我认为在非正式方面，这里确实有两个建议。

The first one is to seek out opportunities to shadow or partner closely with a product manager and maybe even offer to take on some work.

第一个是寻找机会跟随产品经理或与产品经理密切合作，甚至可能主动承担一些工作。

So, some of the best PMs that I've brought over to product from other functions, they really start by expressing interest in product and then start partnering closely with the product manager and maybe even doing a little bit of product work before they make that transition.

因此，我从其他职能部门调来的一些最好的产品经理，他们实际上是从表达对产品的兴趣开始的，然后开始与产品经理密切合作，甚至可能在进行过渡之前做一些产品工作。

Annie Pearl: And one tactical suggestion is there's oftentimes companies will have subject matter expert programs where they want to pair someone from a go-to-market function with a certain product squad or a certain product area.

Annie Pearl：一个战术建议是，公司通常会有主题专家计划，他们希望将市场推广职能部门的人员与特定产品团队或特定产品领域配对。

And so that's becoming a SME.

因此，这正在成为中小企业。

It allows you to really get more involved and embedded into the product team.

它可以让您真正更多地参与并融入产品团队。

So, that's one suggestion.

所以，这是一个建议。

And then maybe last one is just the path I did, which is joining an early stage startup.

也许最后一条就是我所做的，那就是加入一家早期初创公司。

There's really usually an expectation that everyone's going to get their hands dirty doing a lot of different things.

人们通常期望每个人都会亲自去做很多不同的事情。

And so, I think that's one way where you might have an opportunity to try product management if you end up joining an early stage company.

因此，我认为如果您最终加入一家早期公司，这可能是您有机会尝试产品管理的一种方式。

Lenny: So, maybe it was four, maybe it was more paths that you described.

莱尼：所以，也许是四条，也许是更多你所描述的路径。

Join APM program.

加入 APM 计划。

What was the second one again?

第二个又是什么？

Annie Pearl: Internal job board apply, when you're in the company.

Annie Pearl：当你在公司工作时，可以申请内部招聘委员会。

Lenny: As just like a junior PM.

莱尼：就像初级总理一样。

Two is, find someone that mentors you and helps you start doing the role.

第二是，找到一个能指导你并帮助你开始扮演这个角色的人。

And is that internal?

这是内部的吗？

Is that the internal transfer app?

这是内部转账应用吗？

Annie Pearl: And then, another flavor of that is sometimes companies will have these SME programs.

安妮·珀尔：然后，另一种情况是，有时公司会有这些中小企业计划。

Annie Pearl: Subject matter expert.

Annie Pearl：主题专家。

So, you'll say, "Hey, I want to make sure we have subject matter expert in our CS team on this area of the product." And they'll partner really closely with the product manager and designer within that area.

因此，您会说：“嘿，我想确保我们的 CS 团队中有该产品领域的主题专家。”他们将与该领域的产品经理和设计师密切合作。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

And then the fourth bucket is, join a startup, start doing PM work and then you end up being a PM.

第四个桶是，加入一家初创公司，开始做 PM 工作，然后你最终成为一名 PM。

Lenny: Which of those four do you find most common?

莱尼：您认为这四种中哪一种最常见？

And would you push people in one direction or another?

你会把人们推向一个或另一个方向吗？

Annie Pearl: Yeah, I've brought a lot of folks over internally for the path of someone's really interested in product, they express they're interested, they want to help, they want to learn, they're eager, they're curious.

Annie Pearl：是的，我在内部带了很多人来寻找对产品真正感兴趣的人，他们表示他们有兴趣，他们想提供帮助，他们想学习，他们渴望，他们好奇。

And so, they make that really well known and they're even willing to do some work on the side to help out and really show and demonstrate the skills before they have the job.

因此，他们让这一点众所周知，他们甚至愿意在获得工作之前做一些兼职工作来帮助并真正展示和展示技能。

So, I've seen that one to actually probably bring the most folks over in my role in terms of being on the product leadership side.

因此，我发现，在产品领导方面，实际上可能会吸引最多的人来担任我的角色。

Lenny: On the APM program route, are there any APM programs you recommend?

Lenny：在APM项目路线上，您有推荐的APM项目吗？

Because I'm sure people hear this and they're like, "Yeah, but I don't know where to apply.

因为我确信人们听到这个消息后会想，“是的，但我不知道在哪里申请。

I don't know which ones are good." I don't know if you have a list, but just what comes to mind as APM programs to go pursue?

我不知道哪些是好的。”我不知道您是否有一个清单，但是作为 APM 计划，您会想到什么？

Annie Pearl: The folks who started it all was Google, with the Google APM program.

Annie Pearl：这一切的始作俑者是 Google，他们推出了 Google APM 计划。

And Meta obviously has a pretty strong robust APM program.

Meta 显然拥有相当强大的 APM 程序。

But as I mentioned around Box, I think those are obviously very, very competitive and most people want to get into them.

但正如我在 Box 中提到的，我认为这些显然竞争非常非常激烈，大多数人都想加入其中。

It may be better to try and find a company like Box or a company that's a bit earlier stage, not as scaled to think about looking at those APM programs.

尝试找到像 Box 这样的公司或处于较早期阶段的公司可能会更好，而不是考虑查看那些 APM 程序的规模。

And I'm sure if you want to, go to glassdoor.com where I used to work at Glassdoor, so had to throw that in there.

我确信如果你愿意，可以访问 glassdoor.com，我曾经在 Glassdoor 工作过，所以不得不把它放在那里。

You could search for associate product manager and I think you'll find a whole host of open roles that you might be able to apply to.

您可以搜索副产品经理，我想您会找到大量您可以申请的空缺职位。

Lenny: That is a cool tip.

莱尼：这是一个很酷的建议。

I haven't heard of that.

我没听说过。

Go to Glassdoor and search for APM.

转到 Glassdoor 并搜索 APM。

So, you search for companies that have an APM title.

因此，您搜索具有 APM 称号的公司。

Annie Pearl: Yes.

安妮·珀尔：是的。

You could just use associate product manager and you'll see all the open jobs out there and then go apply to them.

您可以只使用副产品经理，您会看到所有空缺职位，然后去申请它们。

Lenny: That's cool.

莱尼：那太酷了。

Okay, good tip.

好的，好提示。

What I find, and you mentioned this the best, if you have the option is internal transfer.

我发现，如果您可以选择内部转移，您提到的最好的就是内部转移。

If you're just like another function, you find someone that can help you move into the role.

如果您只是喜欢另一个职能，您会找到可以帮助您进入该职位的人。

Annie Pearl: You have the relationships, you can show your work really well.

Annie Pearl：你有关系，你可以很好地展示你的作品。

The other thing I would say is when I think about folks who have successfully transferred over, I think they tend to have a couple of characteristics.

我想说的另一件事是，当我想到那些成功转学的人时，我认为他们往往有几个特点。

They're usually very curious, they tend to be really passionate about the product and solving customer problems.

他们通常非常好奇，他们往往对产品和解决客户问题充满热情。

And sometimes, they've even tinkered with a side project as a way to hone their PM skills.

有时，他们甚至会修改一个副业项目，作为磨练 PM 技能的一种方式。

So, I think as you're thinking about making that transition, those types of characteristics really showing eagerness and interest in the product itself and solving customer problems are also great ways to get noticed and increase your chances.

因此，我认为当您考虑进行这种转变时，那些真正表现出对产品本身的渴望和兴趣以及解决客户问题的特征也是获得关注并增加机会的好方法。

Lenny: Why do you think it is that not more companies have an APM program?

Lenny：您认为为什么没有更多的公司拥有 APM 计划？

It feels like such a win for so many people.

对于很多人来说，这感觉就像是一场胜利。

Why is it just so rare?

为什么它如此罕见？

Annie Pearl: Yeah, I think when we built this at Box, so drawing on that experience, it was a lot of work.

Annie Pearl：是的，我想当我们在 Box 开发这个产品时，利用这些经验，我们做了很多工作。

If you're going to do it, you want to do it really well and you want to create an environment where you can help the associate product managers be successful, the goal is to ultimately graduate everyone from the APM program into being a product manager.

如果你打算这样做，你想做得很好，并且你想创造一个可以帮助副产品经理取得成功的环境，目标是最终让 APM 计划中的每个人都成为产品经理。

And so, I think it takes a lot of intentionality and for us, it took a lot of work.

因此，我认为这需要很大的意愿，对我们来说，这需要大量的工作。

We had to make sure we had clarity around the interview process.

我们必须确保面试过程清晰。

We had to make sure we had clarity around expectations in the role.

我们必须确保我们对这个角色的期望有明确的认识。

We wanted to have a training element.

我们想要有一个培训元素。

Annie Pearl: We wanted to make sure that, again, we're setting people up for success.

Annie Pearl：我们希望再次确保我们为人们的成功做好准备。

So, I think companies have to be at a stage of scale where they can really invest and they have the excess capacity to build the program in a way.

因此，我认为公司必须处于可以真正投资的规模阶段，并且有足够的能力以某种方式构建该项目。

I think that's going to help make sure everyone who comes through it has a chance at really learning, growing and ultimately being successful.

我认为这将有助于确保每个经历过这一过程的人都有机会真正学习、成长并最终取得成功。

Lenny: That's the same thing we found at Airbnb.

莱尼：这与我们在爱彼迎发现的情况是一样的。

There's a PM that was so excited to make the APM program and it just never really happens.

有一位 PM 非常兴奋地制定了 APM 计划，但它从未真正发生过。

It just takes so much work.

这需要做很多工作。

And to your point, you have to set up for success.

就您而言，您必须为成功做好准备。

You want to make sure there's clear paths and you upgrade to a regular PM and have the interview.

您需要确保有清晰的路径，然后升级为正式产品经理并接受面试。

Annie Pearl: And are we doing, is this really an APM program for internal folks?

Annie Pearl：我们在做什么，这真的是一个针对内部人员的 APM 计划吗？

Is this external?

这是外在的吗？

Are we going to be really trying to promote this?

我们真的要努力推广这一点吗？

So, I think there's a lot of ancillary activities around the actual program itself that have to be taken into consideration to make sure that it is actually very successful.

因此，我认为围绕实际计划本身有很多辅助活动必须考虑在内，以确保它实际上非常成功。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Maybe a last point we should probably imagine you agree with is generally just hard to get into product management.

也许我们应该想象您同意的最后一点通常很难进入产品管理领域。

That's like the default.

这就像默认的一样。

There's just not that many roles at companies versus say, engineers or some other functions.

与工程师或其他一些职能部门相比，公司中的角色并不多。

Lenny: So, I think that's just like there are not that many roles.

莱尼：所以，我认为这就像没有那么多角色一样。

It's a difficult role to break into, but these are the ways you can do it if you actually want to.

这是一个很难进入的角色，但如果你真的想的话，这些都是你可以做到的方法。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

So, I want to transition a little bit to talking about Calendly.

所以，我想稍微过渡一下 Calendly。

Lenny: There are two areas I want to go.

Lenny：我想去两个地方。

One is just how do you build product at Calendly?

一是你如何在 Calendly 构建产品？

What have you learned about product development and team building?

您在产品开发和团队建设方面学到了什么？

And then two, talk about how Calendly grows and what you've learned about growing a product like Calendly.

然后第二点，谈谈 Calendly 是如何发展的，以及您在发展 Calendly 这样的产品时学到了什么。

It's such an interesting product, especially from a growth perspective.

这是一个非常有趣的产品，尤其是从增长的角度来看。

So, to start on just how product is built at Calendly, just a little context.

因此，要开始了解 Calendly 的产品是如何构建的，只需了解一些背景信息。

How many product managers are there and how many PMs are there?

有多少个产品经理，有多少个PM？

How many people total, roughly?

总共有多少人，大概？

Yeah, just to give us a little bit of .

是的，只是为了给我们一点点。

Annie Pearl: Let's see, when I joined about two years ago, I think the company was about 150 people and I think we're about 600 now.

Annie Pearl：让我们看看，当我大约两年前加入时，我认为公司大约有 150 人，而现在大约有 600 人。

And then the product team, there were about 15 product managers and designers when I joined again about two years ago, and I think we're around 60 this year.

然后是产品团队，大约两年前我再次加入时，大约有 15 名产品经理和设计师，我想今年我们大约有 60 名。

Annie Pearl: Product managers, designers, and a research team.

Annie Pearl：产品经理、设计师和研究团队。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

And then, can you talk about how the product team is structured roughly?

那么，您能谈谈产品团队的大致架构吗？

If you think about a tree, tree.

如果你想到一棵树，那就是树。

Annie Pearl: Yeah.

安妮·珀尔：是的。

So, as I mentioned, we've got product managers, we have designers, we have a research team, and then product operations.

因此，正如我提到的，我们有产品经理、设计师、研究团队，然后是产品运营。

And then, on my product leadership team, we have head of design, head of research, head of product operations.

然后，在我的产品领导团队中，我们有设计主管、研究主管、产品运营主管。

And then, within the product management team, I have leaders across core, across enterprise and platform.

然后，在产品管理团队中，我有跨核心、跨企业和平台的领导者。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

So, you manage the design team and engineering team, you said?

那么，你说，你管理着设计团队和工程团队？

Annie Pearl: Not engineering.

Annie Pearl：不是工程。

Design, product and research.

设计、产品和研究。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

Something that I find is one of the big differences between product orgs is design reporting up to a product leader versus not.

我发现产品组织之间的最大区别之一是向产品负责人报告的设计与不向产品负责人报告的设计。

What's the rationale there?

这里面有什么道理吗？

And then has Calendly tried a different approach?

那么 Calendly 是否尝试过不同的方法？

Annie Pearl: Yeah.

安妮·珀尔：是的。

So, when I was at Glassdoor in the CPO role, I had the opportunity to lead design for the first time.

因此，当我在 Glassdoor 担任首席产品官时，我第一次有机会领导设计。

So, coming into Calendly, I had led both product and design as well as research.

因此，进入 Calendly 后，我领导了产品、设计以及研究。

And so, I think it made sense given I'd already done it once to keep that structure coming into Calendly.

因此，我认为这是有道理的，因为我已经做过一次以保持该结构进入 Calendly。

I think at the end of the day, the real benefit of the structure is really to say at the end, we want to be thinking about everything we're doing through the lens of the end-to-end user experience.

我认为归根结底，该结构的真正好处实际上是在最后说，我们希望通过端到端用户体验的角度来思考我们所做的一切。

And so, if we have product managers who are really prioritizing the problems we're going to go after, and we've got designers who are really trying to think about how do we bring solutions to life to solve those problems, having both of those functions roll into one person just really allows us to think more holistically around the end-to-end user experience.

因此，如果我们有真正优先考虑我们要解决的问题的产品经理，并且有真正尝试思考如何将解决方案付诸实践来解决这些问题的设计师，那么将这两个功能集中到一个人身上确实可以让我们更全面地思考端到端的用户体验。

Annie Pearl: So, certainly, it can work where you have product and design reporting into different leaders that ultimately report into the CEO, but when you get to this level of scale from just a pure people management, but also just the scale of the business, you know often see this consolidation where product and design start to roll into one leader.

Annie Pearl：所以，当然，如果你向不同的领导者报告产品和设计，最终向首席执行官汇报，那么它可以发挥作用，但是当你从纯粹的人员管理以及业务规模达到这种规模时，你知道经常会看到这种整合，产品和设计开始向一个领导者滚动。

And at least in my experience, I think it can help ensure that all the different pieces of work are integrated well together and ultimately deliver a better experience for customers.

至少根据我的经验，我认为这有助于确保所有不同的工作能够很好地集成在一起，并最终为客户提供更好的体验。

Lenny: So, it sounds like before you joined it wasn't like that.

莱尼：所以，听起来在你加入之前情况并非如此。

And if that's true, was there something that improved with that shift?

如果这是真的，那么这种转变是否带来了一些改进？

Annie Pearl: So, the structure was there that way.

安妮·珀尔：所以，结构就是这样的。

At that time, we didn't have a head of design, so we had a lot of really great individual contributors and who had been, many of whom had been with the company for quite some time and really contributed to the great user experience that existed in the product.

当时，我们没有设计主管，所以我们有很多非常出色的个人贡献者，其中许多人已经在公司工作了很长一段时间，并为产品中存在的出色用户体验做出了真正的贡献。

But we didn't have a design leader.

但我们没有设计领导者。

So, one of the first leadership hires I made was to bring in a head of design to really build out that function.

因此，我聘用的第一个领导层就是聘请一位设计主管来真正构建该功能。

And then, that head of design is a peer partnering with the different heads of products across the product management organization as well.

然后，该设计主管也是与整个产品管理组织中的不同产品主管合作的同事。

Lenny: What about in terms of the structure, whatever you can share one level below, how do you structure teams?

Lenny：就结构而言，无论您可以在下面的一级共享什么，您如何构建团队？

Is it around outcomes?

是围绕结果吗？

Is it around features of the product?

是围绕产品的功能吗？

Is it around type of persona?

与角色类型有关吗？

How do you think about that?

您对此有何看法？

Annie Pearl: Yeah, yeah.

安妮·珀尔：是的，是的。

So, we have a core team who's really responsible for the core end to-end user experience.

因此，我们有一个真正负责核心端到端用户体验的核心团队。

In many ways, they're both doing feature development and then they're also doing growth work.

在很多方面，他们都在进行功能开发，然后也在进行增长工作。

So, they're thinking about how do we build new features and functionalities to help our core personas, which is typically folks who are in sales, recruiting and customer success.

因此，他们正在考虑如何构建新的特性和功能来帮助我们的核心角色，这些角色通常是从事销售、招聘和客户成功的人员。

So, anyone in an externally facing role, we're really trying to help them do their jobs better.

因此，对于任何一个面向外部的角色，我们都在努力帮助他们更好地完成工作。

So, the core team's thinking about features and functionalities to really help our core end user persona.

因此，核心团队正在思考特性和功能，以真正帮助我们的核心最终用户角色。

And then growth work to think about the PLG funnel, everything from acquisition, activation, conversion, and retention.

然后，增长工作要考虑 PLG 漏斗，包括获取、激活、转化和保留等各个方面。

So, that's one group.

所以，这是一组。

Annie Pearl: And then, second group is our "enterprise group." And they're really thinking about two different personas.

Annie Pearl：然后，第二组是我们的“企业组”。他们实际上正在考虑两种不同的角色。

One is the IT admin, the person who needs to make sure that Calendly is secure and that they have all the reporting mechanisms to be able to manage their account and all the tools to manage users and groups at scale.

一类是 IT 管理员，他们需要确保 Calendly 的安全，并且拥有能够管理其帐户的所有报告机制以及大规模管理用户和组的所有工具。

And the second piece of that is also departmental leaders.

第二部分也是部门领导。

So as Calendly selling into or being used by a sales organization, the head of sales is not the IT admin, but they are a Teams admin who needs to manage their organization within Calendly.

因此，当 Calendly 向销售组织进行销售或由销售组织使用时，销售主管不是 IT 管理员，而是需要在 Calendly 中管理其组织的 Teams 管理员。

So, the enterprise group really thinks both about the admin, but also sort of the departments and how do we better serve departments.

所以，企业集团不仅要考虑管理，还要考虑部门的排序，以及如何更好地为部门服务。

Annie Pearl: And then lastly, we have a platform team who's really thinking about how do we embed Calendly into the business processes of the organizations that we support and that we provide our product into.

Annie Pearl：最后，我们有一个平台团队，他们真正考虑如何将 Calendly 嵌入到我们支持并提供产品的组织的业务流程中。

And so, that's everything from partnerships and integrations to our APIs.

这就是从合作伙伴关系和集成到我们的 API 的一切。

Lenny: Interesting.

莱尼：有趣。

So, it's like problem focused/persona focused.

所以，这就像以问题为中心/以角色为中心。

Who are you trying to sell it to?

你想把它卖给谁？

Annie Pearl: That's right, that's right.

安妮·珀尔： 没错，没错。

Yeah, trying to sell it to, and then the persona of who's going to be using the functionality.

是的，试图将其出售给将要使用该功能的人。

And then, really having those teams hone and own those personas as they're developing functionality within the product.

然后，真正让这些团队在开发产品功能时磨练并拥有这些角色。

Lenny: What's your take on OKRs?

Lenny：您对 OKR 有何看法？

Do you all use OKRs in some form?

你们都以某种形式使用 OKR 吗？

Annie Pearl: Yes, we do.

安妮·珀尔：是的，我们愿意。

We use OKRs both at the company level.

我们在公司层面使用 OKR。

So, we have three main OKRs that we're focused on for this year, for example, across the whole company.

因此，我们今年重点关注整个公司的三个主要 OKR。

And then we have department level OKRs, many of which are in support of the company level OKRs, but then there's some additional things that we'll be doing at the department level, for example, that aren't going to show up at the company level.

然后我们有部门级别的 OKR，其中许多都是支持公司级别的 OKR，但是我们将在部门级别做一些额外的事情，例如，这些事情不会出现在公司级别。

So yeah, we use them both at the company as well as on the product side.

所以，是的，我们在公司和产品方面都使用它们。

Lenny: Is there anything you've learned about making OKRs work?

Lenny：关于让 OKR 发挥作用，您学到了什么吗？

People love them.

人们爱他们。

People hate them.

人们讨厌他们。

Lenny: Is there something you do to make OKRs work?

Lenny：您是否采取了一些措施来使 OKR 发挥作用？

Something you've changed, something you've learned over time in how to work with OKRs?

在如何使用 OKR 方面，您已经改变了一些东西，还是随着时间的推移您学到了一些东西？

Annie Pearl: Yeah.

安妮·珀尔：是的。

When I first joined, I'd say we didn't have this muscle well built out.

当我第一次加入时，我想说我们的肌肉还不够发达。

We didn't really have a clear product strategy at the time or clear OKRs guiding the work.

我们当时并没有真正明确的产品策略，也没有明确的 OKR 来指导工作。

And so, there was a lot of great work happening, but it really was unclear how it all fit together or how we were going to measure success in that work.

因此，有很多伟大的工作正在发生，但确实不清楚它们如何组合在一起，或者我们如何衡量这项工作的成功。

So that was a first phase.

这是第一阶段。

I think the second phase for us was we developed a product strategy.

我认为我们的第二阶段是制定产品策略。

We then had product team OKRs that corresponded to that product strategy, but they were really contained to the product team and each department across the organization had their own kind of siloed OKRs.

然后，我们制定了与该产品策略相对应的产品团队 OKR，但它们实际上包含在产品团队中，并且组织中的每个部门都有自己的孤立 OKR。

Annie Pearl: And then, phase three, where really, I'd say we headed into this year, we have a really clear set, as I mentioned, of company OKRs and then in these really tightly integrated plans across the company around how we're going to support the key results and ultimately deliver on the objectives.

Annie Pearl：然后，第三阶段，实际上，我想说，我们进入今年，正如我提到的，我们有一套非常明确的公司 OKR，然后在整个公司的这些非常紧密整合的计划中，围绕我们将如何支持关键结果并最终实现目标。

And this has been a really incredible transformation of dependency mapping, being able to make sure that we're pulling all the levers across the organization to drive our most important objective.

这是依赖映射的一次真正令人难以置信的转变，能够确保我们在整个组织中发挥所有杠杆来推动我们最重要的目标。

Annie Pearl: So, I think it's just the kind of maturing of the business from almost no OKRs to product team OKRs to now company OKRs in a really tight planning process to make sure there's a lot of integration across the company to support what we need to do as a business.

Annie Pearl：所以，我认为这只是业务的成熟，从几乎没有 OKR 到产品团队 OKR，再到现在公司 OKR，在一个非常严格的规划过程中，以确保整个公司有大量的整合来支持我们作为一个企业需要做的事情。

Lenny: So, what I'm hearing is one of the biggest changes in learnings was to connect OKRs across from the top to the bottom, right?

Lenny：所以，我听说学习中最大的变化之一是将 OKR 从上到下连接起来，对吗？

Lenny: Is there anything else that has made a big impact on your ability to build and ship and execute as a company in terms of changes you've made in terms of how the company and how the teams build?

Lenny：就您在公司和团队建设方式方面所做的改变而言，还有什么其他事情对您作为一家公司的构建、交付和执行能力产生了重大影响吗？

Annie Pearl: I think one of the biggest changes that we've made, when I first joined, again, we had a product that served a lot of horizontal users.

Annie Pearl：我认为我们所做的最大的改变之一是，当我第一次加入时，我们再次拥有了一个为很多横向用户提供服务的产品。

We help solo users who are freelancers, consultants.

我们帮助自由职业者、顾问等独立用户。

We help sales teams, we help recruiting teams, we help customer success, we help folks in education.

我们帮助销售团队，我们帮助招聘团队，我们帮助客户成功，我们帮助人们进行教育。

So, we had a very broad user base.

所以，我们拥有非常广泛的用户群。

And what that means is that product managers in particular are I think had a really hard time prioritizing.

这意味着我认为产品经理很难确定优先顺序。

At any point in time, it was really difficult to say, should I do work on feature A or for feature B without that clarity?

在任何时候，如果没有那么清晰，真的很难说，我应该在功能 A 上工作还是在功能 B 上工作？

And so, I think one of the most impactful things we did pretty early on in my tenure here was to hone in on our overall product strategy, but a poor piece of that being what's the actual market we're going after?

因此，我认为我们在任职初期所做的最有影响力的事情之一就是磨练我们的整体产品策略，但其中一个糟糕的部分是我们要追求的实际市场是什么？

What are the segments of that market?

该市场有哪些细分市场？

Who are the personas within the segments of that market?

该市场细分市场中的角色是谁？

Annie Pearl: And so, we've made a pretty clear distinction now that while a lot of the feature work that we'll do to support our target personas of sales teams, customer success teams and recruiting teams will impact folks who are not in those personas.

Annie Pearl：因此，我们现在已经做出了非常明确的区分，虽然我们将为支持销售团队、客户成功团队和招聘团队的目标角色而做的许多功能工作将影响那些不属于这些角色的人。

Those are the core ICPs that we're going after.

这些是我们要追求的核心 ICP。

And so, historically, that would've been always a sort of trade off decision and a question.

因此，从历史上看，这始终是一种权衡决定和一个问题。

And now I think we have a lot of rigor around who our target market and then persona we're going after.

现在我认为我们对我们的目标市场和我们要追求的角色有很多严格的要求。

And so, teams can use that to prioritize and also just deliver better value for those users.

因此，团队可以利用它来确定优先级，并为这些用户提供更好的价值。

Lenny: So, it sounds like the biggest unlock and one of the biggest unlocks for making the team more efficient, move faster, make decisions quicker, is narrowing in on exactly who you're going to be selling to.

莱尼：所以，这听起来像是最大的解锁，也是让团队更高效、更快行动、更快做出决策的最大解锁之一，就是缩小你要销售给谁的范围。

Annie Pearl: I think it's one of the harder things for companies to do.

Annie Pearl：我认为这是公司最难做的事情之一。

So, it sounds relatively easy, and I think most companies believe that they have clarity around this.

所以，这听起来相对容易，而且我认为大多数公司都认为他们对此很清楚。

But then when you go down into the weeds of asking someone who's product manager or a designer, I don't know that it's always as clear because there's always a bit of a hesitation to say no, right?

但是，当你深入询问产品经理或设计师的人时，我不知道它总是那么清楚，因为总是有点犹豫要不要拒绝，对吧？

And the idea of saying no is scary.

拒绝的想法是可怕的。

When in reality, the ability to say no is going to allow you to make sure you're building something that's going to be amazing for the people that matter most and not something that's going to be average or okay for a lot of different people.

事实上，拒绝的能力可以让你确保你正在构建的东西对最重要的人来说是令人惊叹的，而不是对很多不同的人来说平庸或还可以的东西。

Lenny: Was there anything that was really hard about actually executing that, convincing people we're going to narrow and not worry about these people and any lessons from going through that process?

莱尼：在实际执行过程中，有什么真正困难的事情吗？说服人们我们将缩小范围，不要担心这些人，以及从整个过程中得到的教训？

Because I imagine a lot of founders listening are like, "Oh, that sounds we should be doing this, but oh man, we're leaving all this money on the table, people are going to be pissed."

因为我想象很多创始人听后都会说，“哦，这听起来我们应该这样做，但是天哪，我们把所有这些钱都留在了桌子上，人们会生气的。”

Annie Pearl: Yeah, I think it's a pretty big cultural shift.

安妮·珀尔：是的，我认为这是一个相当大的文化转变。

So, some of this intersects with the shift from product led growth to adding in a sales motion.

因此，其中一些与从产品主导增长到增加销售行动的转变相交叉。

So, when I joined Calendly, all of our ARR came from our PLG channel.

所以，当我加入 Calendly 时，我们所有的 ARR 都来自我们的 PLG 渠道。

We didn't have a sales team, we just hired a CRO who was going to build out a sales team.

我们没有销售团队，只是聘请了一名 CRO，他将组建销售团队。

And so, in that world, the way you think about product, the way you think about processes, even the people you have on the team are tailored to that business model.

因此，在那个世界中，你思考产品的方式、你思考流程的方式，甚至你团队中的人员都是针对该业务模式量身定制的。

And then, as we sort of moved up market and have now explicitly started to go after teams of users and departments of users and organizations of larger scale, everything about people, process, and product all changes.

然后，当我们进入市场并明确开始追求用户团队、用户部门和更大规模的组织时，有关人员、流程和产品的一切都发生了变化。

Annie Pearl: I think I touched on culture because I think that's pervasive across the entire organization.

Annie Pearl：我想我谈到了文化，因为我认为文化在整个组织中普遍存在。

The way that things get done has to be highly integrated versus can be a bit more siloed when you're just sort of the self-service PLG business that in many ways runs itself through the product being well optimized.

完成工作的方式必须是高度集成的，而不是当您只是自助服务 PLG 业务时，它在很多方面都通过良好优化的产品来运行。

So, there's a lot of process change that needs to happen, the type of people that you need to bring into the organization, that changes as you layer in the new selling motion.

因此，需要进行大量的流程变更，您需要将人员类型带入组织，这些变更会随着您在新的销售活动中的分层而变化。

And then the product itself of course has to change.

那么产品本身当然也必须改变。

Annie Pearl: So, I guess let's just say the example of PLG and SLG or the direct selling motion is tied in to your question around what are the things that need to change in order to get clear on your target user?

Annie Pearl：所以，我想我们只能说 PLG 和 SLG 或直销动议的例子与您的问题有关，为了弄清楚您的目标用户，需要改变哪些事情？

And I think it's highly cultural in nature across people, across process, and then obviously across the actual product itself.

我认为它本质上是高度文化的，跨越人、跨越流程，然后显然跨越实际产品本身。

Lenny: I have a whole bunch of questions about how Calendly grows and maybe we just get into some of the stuff because I imagine a lot of people are interested.

Lenny：我对 Calendly 如何发展有一大堆问题，也许我们只是讨论其中的一些内容，因为我想很多人都感兴趣。

First, let me ask this.

首先，我想问一下这个问题。

I imagine Calendly mostly grows through, I sign up for Calendly, they send it to everyone when I book a meeting and they're like, "Oh, what is this?" And they're like, "Oh, cool, I'm going to use this." And then they start using, it spreads, and then sales eventually finds people at a company that are using it a lot and tries to get the whole company in it.

我想 Calendly 大部分都会成长，我注册了 Calendly，当我预订会议时他们会将其发送给每个人，他们会说，“哦，这是什么？”他们会说，“哦，太酷了，我要用这个。”然后他们开始使用，它传播开来，然后销售最终找到公司里经常使用它的人，并试图让整个公司都参与其中。

Is that roughly right?

大致是这样吗？

Annie Pearl: Yeah.

安妮·珀尔：是的。

Seventy percent of our signups come through that viral loop that you referred to.

我们百分之七十的注册来自您提到的病毒循环。

And then, of those signups, then they're usually solo users and then they start to invite team members in and then the team starts using Calendly and then usually the head of that team either inbounds to us or we have some sort of PQL data to know we should go after that team lead to try and have a conversation around expanding Calendly across their entire organization.

然后，在这些注册者中，他们通常是单独用户，然后他们开始邀请团队成员加入，然后团队开始使用 Calendly，然后通常该团队的负责人会联系我们，或者我们有某种 PQL 数据知道我们应该跟踪该团队负责人，尝试围绕在整个组织中扩展 Calendly 进行对话。

Lenny: And PQL, product qualified lead, right?

Lenny：还有 PQL，产品合格领导，对吧？

Lenny: Wow, what a loop.

莱尼：哇，真是一个循环。

What a magical way to grow that everybody wishes they could have.

这是一种多么神奇的成长方式，每个人都希望自己能拥有。

Annie Pearl: It's pretty incredible, I will say.

安妮·珀尔：我想说，这真是令人难以置信。

Lenny: Oh man.

莱尼：天啊。

Okay, so going back to the question.

好吧，那么回到问题上来。

When did Calendly hire their first salesperson, like any learnings about just how to start down that road once you start a product?

Calendly 何时雇佣了他们的第一位销售人员，比如在推出产品后如何开始走这条路？

Annie Pearl: Yeah.

安妮·珀尔：是的。

As I mentioned, when I joined two years ago, we just hired our first CRO and the PLG business really represented 99% of our ARR.

正如我提到的，当我两年前加入时，我们刚刚聘请了第一位 CRO，PLG 业务确实占我们 ARR 的 99%。

And then, over the last two years, we've scaled the sales team in our SLG motion.

然后，在过去的两年里，我们在 SLG 计划中扩大了销售团队的规模。

Our sales led growth motion now represents about 20% of our ARR and it's actually the fastest growing segment of the business.

我们以销售为主导的增长动议现在约占我们 ARR 的 20%，它实际上是业务中增长最快的部分。

I think there's probably two things I would touch on in terms of early sales hires.

我认为在早期销售招聘方面我可能会谈到两件事。

I think the first is, when you're making that transition from PLG to adding in the sales led motion, because you're starting from PLG, it's tends to be much more inbound in nature.

我认为第一个问题是，当您从 PLG 过渡到添加销售主导动议时，因为您是从 PLG 开始的，所以本质上往往更多是入站式的。

You've got these sales reps who are working leads who have usually proactively reached out interested or as we mentioned PQLs.

这些销售代表是工作领导者，他们通常会主动主动联系感兴趣的人，或者正如我们提到的 PQL。

They have data to tell them that this is someone who has usage within their team, and therefore, we should reach out.

他们有数据告诉他们，这是在他们的团队中使用的人，因此，我们应该联系。

Annie Pearl: And so, that's a very different profile of a sales team member than you might need after you need to pursue more of a heavy outbound motion, more of a hunter profile than a grower profile.

Annie Pearl：因此，在您需要追求更多的外向行动之后，销售团队成员的个人资料与您可能需要的非常不同，更多的是猎人资料而不是种植者资料。

So, I think that's the first piece is just make sure you think about the motion when you're moving towards a sales led model.

所以，我认为第一件事就是确保你在转向销售主导模式时考虑到这一动议。

In those early days, it's more inbound in nature, and so the type of sales reps you might need are not necessarily going to be outbound, heavy kind of hunting sales reps.

在早期，本质上更多的是内向销售代表，因此您可能需要的销售代表类型不一定是外向型、重型狩猎销售代表。

Lenny: Just one quick question on that actually, because that's really interesting.

莱尼：实际上只是一个简单的问题，因为这真的很有趣。

I don't know how involved you are in hiring these folks, but is it like, look at their background and they've worked at a company like that?

我不知道你对雇用这些人的参与程度如何，但是看看他们的背景，他们是否在这样的公司工作过？

Or is it personality type?

还是性格类型？

Is there anything to look for specifically there?

那里有什么特别需要寻找的吗？

Annie Pearl: Yeah, I think it is mostly background and the type of selling that they've done previously more so than personality type.

安妮·珀尔：是的，我认为这主要是背景和他们之前所做的销售类型，而不是个性类型。

But I think the second piece, that's important too, and I'll answer your question on that one too, which is the target buyer.

但我认为第二个问题也很重要，我也会回答你关于第二个问题的问题，即目标买家。

So, when you transition from PLG to sales led or adding this direct sales motion, the buyer is usually just the department head.

因此，当您从 PLG 过渡到销售主导或添加这种直接销售行动时，买家通常只是部门负责人。

It's the head of sales, it's the head of rev ops, it's the head of recruiting and it's not a senior person in IT or the CIO.

他是销售主管、运营主管、招聘主管，而不是 IT 或 CIO 的高级人员。

And so, selling into this audience is different than selling into IT.

因此，向这些受众销售与向 IT 销售不同。

Annie Pearl: And so, I think you have to be sure again that you have the right fit of sales folks with the target buyer in those early days.

Annie Pearl：所以，我认为你必须再次确保在早期你拥有与目标买家合适的销售人员。

And so, to your question around what's that mean?

那么，对于你的问题，这意味着什么？

You wouldn't necessarily want to bring on a bunch of sales folks who are at Oracle who are heavy in selling into CIOs in the early days because that's just not who you're the buyer's going to be.

你不一定想聘请一群早期在 Oracle 大量向 CIO 推销产品的销售人员，因为那不是你的买家。

I mean, think we will graduate there eventually, but it's probably going to start from team lead to someone in IT to eventually a CIO led purchase, but that's certainly several years away.

我的意思是，我认为我们最终会在那里毕业，但可能会从团队领导开始，到 IT 人员，最终由 CIO 领导的采购，但这肯定还需要几年的时间。

And so, making sure that the profile, the folks you're bringing on early match that target buyer in addition to match the motion around how you're going to be acquiring customers.

因此，请确保您早期引入的个人资料与目标买家相匹配，并且与您将如何获取客户的动态相匹配。

Lenny: And to see that, is it similar?

莱尼：看看，是不是很相似？

You look at the companies they worked at, it's like PLG-ish companies.

你看看他们工作过的公司，就像 PLG 式的公司。

Annie Pearl: Definitely.

安妮·珀尔：当然。

Yeah, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

Yep.

是的。

Yep.

是的。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

So, along the same lines, as a product leader working with a strong and large sales team, anything you've learned about just how to build that relationship and build a product org that works really closely and well with a sales org?

因此，同样，作为与强大而庞大的销售团队合作的产品负责人，您是否学到了如何建立这种关系并建立一个与销售组织真正密切和良好合作的产品组织？

Annie Pearl: The first piece that really starts with is customer empathy.

Annie Pearl：第一个真正开始的部分是客户同理心。

And at the end of the day, seeing the sales team and the go-to-market team as this really great asset that can help you as a product manager get closer to the customer.

归根结底，将销售团队和市场推广团队视为真正重要的资产，可以帮助您作为产品经理更接近客户。

So, I've certainly seen organizations or been in organizations where the product team doesn't necessarily want to be bothered by sales, but I sort of flip that on the head and say sales and sort of the go-to-market teams in general could be your biggest asset to helping you get your job done well.

所以，我确实见过或曾经在一些组织中，产品团队不一定希望受到销售的困扰，但我有点翻转这一点，并说销售和一般的市场推广团队可能是帮助你做好工作的最大资产。

Annie Pearl: When I was at Box, I was a product manager on the enterprise team and I spent a ton of time in the field and I don't know how I would possibly know how to have what to have built or how to build it to solve the needs of our customers if I didn't have that close relationship with the sales team and be able to lean on them because they're talking to, 10X of them were customers that I was able to ever talk to within any given week, really lean on them to be the voice of the customer to help me make the best product decisions that I could.

Annie Pearl：当我在 Box 时，我是企业团队的产品经理，我在该领域花费了大量的时间，如果我没有与销售团队建立密切的关系，并且能够依靠他们，因为他们正在与我交谈，我不知道我怎么可能知道如何构建什么或如何构建它来解决客户的需求，其中 10 倍是我能够在任何给定的一周内与之交谈的客户，真的依靠他们来代言客户帮助我做出尽可能最好的产品决策。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Vanta, helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate growth.

Lenny：本集由 Vanta 为您带来，可帮助您简化安全合规性以加速增长。

If your business stores any data in the cloud, then you've likely been asked or you're going to be asked about your SOC 2 compliance.

如果您的企业在云中存储任何数据，那么您可能会被询问或将被询问有关 SOC 2 合规性的问题。

SOC 2 is a way to prove your company's taking proper security measures to protect customer data and builds trust with customers and partners, especially those with serious security requirements.

SOC 2 是一种证明您的公司采取了适当的安全措施来保护客户数据并与客户和合作伙伴（尤其是那些有严格安全要求的客户和合作伙伴）建立信任的方法。

Lenny: Also, if you want to sell to the enterprise, proving security is essential.

Lenny：另外，如果你想向企业销售产品，证明安全性至关重要。

SOC 2 can either open the door for bigger and better deals or it can put your business on hold.

SOC 2 可以为更大、更好的交易打开大门，也可以让您的业务暂停。

If you don't have a SOC two, there's a good chance you won't even get a seat at the table.

如果您没有 SOC 2，您很可能连席位都没有。

Beginning a SOC 2 report can be a huge burden, especially for startups.

开始 SOC 2 报告可能是一个巨大的负担，尤其是对于初创公司而言。

It's time consuming, tedious and expensive.

这是耗时、乏味且昂贵的。

Enter Vanta.

输入万塔。

Over 3,000 fast-growing companies use Vanta to automate up to 90% of the work involved with SOC 2.

超过 3,000 家快速发展的公司使用 Vanta 自动化 SOC 2 涉及的高达 90% 的工作。

Vanta can get you ready for security audits in weeks instead of months, less than a third of the time that it usually takes.

Vanta 可以让您在几周而不是几个月内为安全审核做好准备，不到通常所需时间的三分之一。

For a limited time.

在有限的时间内。

Lenny's podcast listeners get $1,000 off Vanta.

Lenny 的播客听众可享受 Vanta 1,000 美元优惠。

Just go to vanta.com/lenny.

只需访问vanta.com/lenny。

That's V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny to learn more and to claim your discount get started today.

请访问 V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny，了解更多信息并享受折扣，立即开始吧。

Lenny: I'm curious how you prioritize work that you could be doing as a product team.

Lenny：我很好奇你如何优先考虑作为产品团队可以做的工作。

There are salespeople coming at you, there's issues you're probably having, there are some founders wanting to ask you for few stuffs, just like a classic product management question.

有销售人员来找你，有你可能遇到的问题，有一些创始人想向你询问一些东西，就像一个经典的产品管理问题。

But I'm curious if you found any frameworks or approaches for just deciding what to actually build of all the things you're hearing.

但我很好奇您是否找到了任何框架或方法来决定实际构建您所听到的所有内容。

Annie Pearl: The core challenge of being a product manager, right?

Annie Pearl：成为产品经理的核心挑战，对吧？

Lenny: Just to add that I feel like the core job of PM is just tell people what's next, what's the next thing.

Lenny：补充一点，我觉得 PM 的核心工作就是告诉人们接下来会发生什么，接下来会发生什么。

Annie Pearl: That's right, and hopefully, you have a good reasoning as to why that thing, next is going to have the biggest impact, which is really where I start.

安妮·珀尔：是的，希望你有一个很好的理由来解释为什么接下来的事情会产生最大的影响，这确实是我开始的地方。

I think it really starts with a clear product strategy that will dictate a few things.

我认为这实际上是从一个明确的产品策略开始的，该策略将决定一些事情。

And I like this framework that's taken from a book called Playing to Win and it talks about how strategy is really just an integrated set of choices that outline how you're going to win in whatever marketplace you choose.

我喜欢这个框架，它取自一本名为《Playing to Win》的书，它讲述了战略实际上只是一组综合的选择，概述了您将如何在您选择的任何市场中获胜。

And so, a good product strategy is going to answer questions like, what's your sort of winning aspiration, but maybe more importantly, where are you going to play?

因此，一个好的产品策略将回答这样的问题：你的获胜愿望是什么，但也许更重要的是，你要在哪里玩？

What are the markets you're going to go after?

您要关注哪些市场？

What are the segments of those markets?

这些市场有哪些细分市场？

What are the personas in the segments of those markets?

这些市场细分中的人物角色是什么？

And then, how are you going to win with a target audience?

然后，你将如何赢得目标受众？

Annie Pearl: And so, what I think this framework does kind of dovetails back to what I was saying before around prioritization is it forces you to create clarity around where you're going to play and where you're not going to play.

Annie Pearl：所以，我认为这个框架与我之前所说的优先级相吻合，它迫使你明确你要玩的地方和你不打算玩的地方。

And so, this really helps the product team hone in on delivering value for a very clear set of people versus trying to build something for everyone.

因此，这确实有助于产品团队专注于为一组非常明确的人群提供价值，而不是试图为每个人构建一些东西。

And so, once you've established what that strategy is or what the playing field you're going to go after, then I think you can divide up your product work and service of that strategy.

因此，一旦您确定了该策略是什么或您要追求的竞争环境是什么，那么我认为您可以划分该策略的产品工作和服务。

Annie Pearl: So, I'll give you an example.

安妮·珀尔：所以，我给你举个例子。

At Calendly, we have the sort of vision, our winning aspiration to become the best place to schedule, prepare for and follow up on your external meetings.

在 Calendly，我们有这样的愿景，我们渴望成为安排、准备和跟进外部会议的最佳场所。

And then, we've articulated three horizons around how we're going to get there.

然后，我们围绕如何实现这一目标阐明了三个愿景。

Now, the year one that I was here, the percentage of resources we spent on that first horizon and the second horizon was about a 70/30 split and we put 0% of our resources on horizon three.

现在，我在这里的第一年，我们在第一个地平线和第二个地平线上花费的资源百分比约为 70/30，我们将 0% 的资源放在第三个地平线上。

That was too far out in the future and we didn't want to make any investments there quite yet, but we knew where we were going.

那是太遥远的未来，我们还不想在那里进行任何投资，但我们知道我们要去哪里。

Annie Pearl: In year two, it shifted.

Annie Pearl：第二年，情况发生了变化。

We went to a 50/50 split between horizon one and horizon two, but still, no explicit investments in Horizon three.

我们在第一阶段和第二阶段之间进行了 50/50 的分配，但仍然没有对第三阶段进行明确的投资。

And then, as we're entering to year three now, we've significantly scaled back the investment in horizon one, that's about 30% and then we've got 60% in horizon two and call it 10 in horizon three.

然后，当我们现在进入第三年时，我们大幅缩减了第一阶段的投资，大约为 30%，然后我们在第二阶段的投资为 60%，并称其为第三阶段的 10%。

So, I think just to close on the question of prioritization, I think it starts with a really clear product strategy which defines where you're going to play and how you're going to win.

因此，我认为为了结束优先级问题，我认为它始于一个非常明确的产品策略，该策略定义了您将在哪里玩以及如何获胜。

And then, the work and the percentage of allocation just should feed right into that product strategy and how you're doing against where you need to be in order to achieve ultimately your winning aspiration.

然后，工作和分配百分比应该直接融入该产品策略以及您如何根据需要达到的目标进行工作，以最终实现您的获胜愿望。

Lenny: I don't know how much you could share here, but is there a feature that is people keep asking for it and it hasn't been built because of the strategy, the long-term vision, something that's like, "Nope, it doesn't fit.

莱尼：我不知道你能在这里分享多少，但是有一个功能是人们一直要求的，但由于战略、长期愿景，它还没有建立起来，就像“不，它不合适。

We're not going to do this."

我们不会这样做。”

Annie Pearl: Yeah, I think the best example I can give is there's lots of small businesses and solopreneurs who would love us to have a Venmo integration.

Annie Pearl：是的，我认为我能给出的最好的例子是，有很多小企业和个体企业家希望我们能够集成 Venmo。

We have a PayPal integration.

我们有 PayPal 集成。

But our target market that we're really trying to go after as our primary persona are as I've mentioned, these sort of core ICPs within organizations.

但正如我所提到的，我们真正努力追求的目标市场是我们的主要角色，即组织内的这些核心 ICP。

So, sales teams, recruiting teams, customer success teams.

所以，销售团队、招聘团队、客户成功团队。

And so, it doesn't make sense within those personas to pursue something like a Venmo integration.

因此，在这些角色中追求 Venmo 集成之类的东西是没有意义的。

Now, there's a lot of things we'll build for those personas that are going to help the small business, the solopreneur, the freelancer, but that specific feature is something that would be clearly deprioritized given the current strategy.

现在，我们将为这些角色构建很多东西来帮助小企业、个体企业家、自由职业者，但考虑到当前的策略，这个特定的功能显然会被降低优先级。

Lenny: That's an awesome example.

莱尼：这是一个很棒的例子。

I want to get back to the growth stuff, but before I do that, we're kind of on this topic of planning and a cares and prioritization.

我想回到增长的话题，但在这之前，我们先讨论一下规划、关心和优先顺序这个话题。

I'd love to know just how you do planning at Calendly?

我很想知道你们在 Calendly 是如何进行规划的？

How far out do you plan in detail?

您具体计划到什么程度？

How far do you have roadmaps?

您的路线图还有多远？

How often do you plan?

你多久计划一次？

Anything you can share there?

有什么可以分享的吗？

Annie Pearl: This starts again, I sound like a broken record, but with this really clear strategy around where we're going over the next couple of years and then we take that and we break that down into what are the most important things we need to do as a company this year in order to be able to make the right progress against that strategy.

Annie Pearl：这又开始了，我听起来像是打破了记录，但是有了这个非常明确的战略，围绕着我们未来几年的发展方向，然后我们将其分解为我们作为一家公司今年需要做的最重要的事情，以便能够根据该战略取得正确的进展。

So, we have the company level OKRs and I mentioned that we have about three of those this year.

因此，我们有公司级别的 OKR，我提到今年我们有大约三个。

And then, those KRs within the company, OKRs are measured annually, but we have milestones across a quarterly basis so we can measure progress more frequently than obviously on the annual or semi-annual basis.

然后，公司内部的 KR、OKR 每年都会进行衡量，但我们每季度都有里程碑，因此我们可以比每年或半年更频繁地衡量进度。

Annie Pearl: So, I think that's kind of at the high level.

Annie Pearl：所以，我认为这是较高水平的。

And then, obviously our product roadmaps are going to be in support of those key results that we needed to deliver to the business over the course of the year, but then broken down on a quarterly basis.

然后，显然我们的产品路线图将支持我们在一年中需要向业务交付的关键成果，但随后按季度进行细分。

Annie Pearl: I think one thing I'll just touch on real fast on is estimations and dates.

Annie Pearl：我想我要快速谈及的一件事是估算和日期。

Something we've done over the last year is really kind of moved to a model of talking about dates and promising and committing to dates that are within our control.

去年我们所做的事情实际上已经转变为一种讨论日期、承诺并承诺我们控制范围内的日期的模式。

And so, if you think about the product development life cycle, we can commit to a discovery effort of doing research around a certain problem space and we can have a general sense of when we know that effort's going to conclude.

因此，如果您考虑产品开发生命周期，我们可以致力于围绕某个问题空间进行研究的发现工作，并且我们可以大致了解该工作何时会结束。

We don't know if we're going to actually end up going, and based on the results whether we're going to actually move forward with investing in that area, but that's a body of work we can commit to.

我们不知道我们是否真的会最终继续下去，也不知道根据结果我们是否会真正推进在该领域的投资，但这是我们可以致力于的一项工作。

Annie Pearl: From there, we then move into, "Okay, if this is something a problem space we want to go after, we're going to go work on a couple different solutions and we're going to go do some user testing and we're going to land on a solution," and that's another sort of phase we can commit to.

Annie Pearl：从那里开始，我们进入“好吧，如果这是我们想要解决的问题空间，我们将研究几个不同的解决方案，我们将进行一些用户测试，然后我们将找到一个解决方案”，这是我们可以承诺的另一个阶段。

Then, once we actually have that completed and we actually know not just the problem but the solution, we can do estimation planning and actually have a date for delivery from an engineering perspective.

然后，一旦我们真正完成了这项工作，并且我们实际上不仅知道问题，还知道解决方案，我们就可以进行估算规划，并从工程角度实际确定交付日期。

And so, we've gotten a lot better at making the commitments around the work that's right in front of us versus making a commitment around a project six months out when we haven't even done enough discovery, enough design and ideation to have a real clear understanding of estimation.

因此，与我们在六个月后的项目上做出承诺相比，我们在围绕眼前的工作做出承诺方面做得更好，当时我们甚至还没有进行足够的发现、足够的设计和构思来对估算有一个真正清晰的理解。

Lenny: That is really cool.

莱尼：那真是太酷了。

Do you have terms for these phases, like these phases you have to get through these kinds of gates?

您是否有这些阶段的条款，例如您必须通过这些类型的大门的这些阶段？

Yeah, how do you describe that?

是啊，你怎么形容呢？

Annie Pearl: Yeah, so the first phase we just call generally discovery.

Annie Pearl：是的，所以第一阶段我们通常称之为发现。

The second phase, we call solutioning.

第二阶段，我们称之为解决。

The third phase, build.

第三阶段，搭建。

And then, the fourth phase is launch, measure and iterate.

然后，第四阶段是启动、测量和迭代。

Annie Pearl: And then, we've designed the product development lifecycle around that framework.

Annie Pearl：然后，我们围绕该框架设计了产品开发生命周期。

Lenny: So, discovery for example, is that a roadmap item for a quarter and that's like what you've committed to?

莱尼：那么，例如，发现，这是一个季度的路线图项目吗？这就像您所承诺的那样？

And if that goes well, the next quarter has the next step.

如果进展顺利，下个季度会有下一步。

Lenny: Sweet.

莱尼：甜甜的。

Okay.

好的。

In terms of the strategy artifacts, how does that look or do you have a Google Doc with a template that you all use?

就策略工件而言，它看起来怎么样？或者你们有一个带有大家都使用的模板的 Google 文档吗？

What does that look like?

那看起来像什么？

What's interesting about people not working at a company or working at just one company is they only have, strategy documents are really hard to see and see examples of.

对于不在一家公司工作或只在一家公司工作的人来说，有趣的是他们只有战略文件，很难看到和看到例子。

So, I'm always curious what these looks like.

所以，我总是很好奇它们是什么样子的。

So, whatever you can share about what they look like and where you put them and how long and that kind of thing.

因此，您可以分享有关它们的外观、放置位置以及放置时间等信息。

Annie Pearl: We have a couple of different layers of this.

Annie Pearl：我们有几个不同的层面。

I think the first is this high-level three-year strategy and this is actually called at the company level.

我认为第一个是这个高层三年战略，这实际上是在公司层面上调用的。

So, if the doc, it also has slides that have been presented many times to the company when we're in the process of making sure that, that is part of new hire orientation so that everyone should understand where are we going over the next three years and then therefore how does this year's objectives fit into that.

因此，如果文档中还有幻灯片，当我们确定这一点时，它已经向公司多次展示过，这是新员工入职培训的一部分，以便每个人都应该了解我们未来三年的发展方向，以及今年的目标如何与之相适应。

So, I think that's at that level.

所以，我认为这就是那个水平。

Annie Pearl: And then, from there, we've got our product team OKRs.

Annie Pearl：然后，从那里开始，我们就有了我们的产品团队 OKR。

These generally start by docs and we write them in docs.

这些通常以文档开始，我们将它们写在文档中。

So, they usually get translated into slides at some point for presentation purposes to the company and those are stored centrally in a location and then you get down to the feature level or the project level.

因此，它们通常会在某个时候被翻译成幻灯片，以便向公司演示，并且这些幻灯片集中存储在某个位置，然后您可以深入到功能级别或项目级别。

And we have different kind of templates for the teams to use based on the type of work that they're going to be doing.

我们有不同类型的模板供团队根据他们将要做的工作类型使用。

And we're a pretty heavy Confluence culture, so we tend to use Confluence as one of the tools for housing and storing information around the work that's being done.

我们的 Confluence 文化相当浓厚，因此我们倾向于使用 Confluence 作为围绕正在完成的工作容纳和存储信息的工具之一。

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

So, maybe on that topic, what else is in the stack of Calendly product team tools?

那么，也许在这个主题上，Calendly 产品团队工具堆栈中还有哪些内容？

Annie Pearl: We talked about roadmap planning, some combination of starts with docs, there's mural boards involved.

Annie Pearl：我们讨论了路线图规划、开始与文档的一些组合，以及涉及的壁画板。

Usually, it ends in slides.

通常，它以幻灯片结束。

Then actually roadmap tracking, we use Aha and we use Airtable collaboration/communication.

然后实际上是路线图跟踪，我们使用 Aha 并使用 Airtable 协作/通信。

We use Slack, we use Loom, bug management, we use Jira.

我们使用 Slack，我们使用 Loom，错误管理，我们使用 Jira。

I'm trying to think of, is there any other?

我试着想一想，还有其他的吗？

Annie Pearl: Confluence.

安妮·珀尔：汇合。

Yep.

是的。

Confluence is what we use quite a bit.

Confluence 是我们经常使用的。

Pando, we use quite a bit of Pando to help educate users within the product when we're launching new features.

Pando，当我们推出新功能时，我们使用大量 Pando 来帮助教育用户。

Yeah, I think that's the main stack.

是的，我认为这是主要堆栈。

Lenny: And docs is Google Docs and slides is Google Slides.

Lenny：文档是 Google 文档，幻灯片是 Google 幻灯片。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

I'm going to bounce around and go back to growth questions and then I have a couple more product team questions.

我将回过头来讨论增长问题，然后我还有几个产品团队问题。

How did Calendly get their first thousand users?

Calendly 是如何获得第一批一千名用户的？

Annie Pearl: A great question and I had to fact check it with my CEO earlier this morning, but there's actually a few really interesting things about this story and a few things that Tope did in the early days to get 2,000 users.

Annie Pearl：这是一个很好的问题，今天早上我必须与我的首席执行官核实一下，但实际上这个故事有一些非常有趣的事情，以及 Tope 在早期为获得 2,000 个用户所做的一些事情。

So, for those who aren't familiar Tope, our CEO and founder started his career in sales and he spent lots of years in sales.

因此，对于那些不熟悉托普的人来说，我们的首席执行官兼创始人的职业生涯始于销售，并在销售领域度过了多年。

And so, he was very used to the challenges of trying to organize external meetings with prospective customers.

因此，他非常习惯于尝试组织与潜在客户的外部会议的挑战。

So, he knew the problem space really, really well.

所以，他非常非常了解问题空间。

And he had evaluated all the scheduling solutions that were on the market and came to conclusion that there really weren't any great products out there and especially there weren't any great products for the recipient of the actual booking service.

他评估了市场上的所有调度解决方案，并得出结论，确实没有任何出色的产品，特别是对于实际预订服务的接收者来说，没有任何出色的产品。

And so, I think he saw this as an opportunity for disruption.

因此，我认为他认为这是一个颠覆的机会。

So, he raided his 401k, he took out all his savings.

于是，他搜查了他的401k，拿出了所有积蓄。

He didn't make raise any money.

他没有筹集到任何资金。

Lenny: That's a lot of penalties, taking out money at that point.

莱尼：那是很多处罚，那时就要拿钱。

Annie Pearl: Sort of.

安妮·珀尔：有点。

That's a very good point.

这是一个很好的观点。

I've never asked him about that.

我从来没有问过他这件事。

And he hired an outside development firm actually in out of the Ukraine to build the first version of Calendly.

他聘请了一家实际上位于乌克兰的外部开发公司来构建 Calendly 的第一个版本。

So, that's the background on Calendly.

这就是 Calendly 的背景。

Why it's important is that the first 10 users were actually customer success agents at a company in the education space that contracted with the same firm that Tope was using to build Calendly.

之所以重要，是因为前 10 位用户实际上是教育领域一家公司的客户成功代理，该公司与 Tope 用来构建 Calendly 的同一家公司签订了合同。

So, he really found his first set of users through the firm that he was using to build the product.

因此，他确实通过他用来构建产品的公司找到了第一批用户。

Annie Pearl: And then, those CSMs or customer success managers were actually using Calendly to schedule calls with parents in K through 12 education.

Annie Pearl：然后，那些 CSM 或客户成功经理实际上使用 Calendly 安排与 K 到 12 教育的家长的通话。

And so, then those parents started using Calendly for their own parent-teacher conference scheduling.

因此，这些家长开始使用 Calendly 来安排自己的家长会。

And then from there, the school started using it and then all the parents within the school started using it for lots of other use cases and it grew organically from there.

然后从那里开始，学校开始使用它，然后学校内的所有家长开始将它用于许多其他用例，并且它从那里开始有机增长。

So that was one piece.

所以那是一件。

Annie Pearl: I think the other piece that's really important is that he started off by just having a free tier.

Annie Pearl：我认为另一件真正重要的事情是他一开始就拥有免费套餐。

The entire product was free.

整个产品是免费的。

Some of this came from honestly not being able to actually build the billing infrastructure that would be required to actually charge.

其中一些原因是实际上无法实际构建实际收费所需的计费基础设施。

So, it came a little bit out of necessity, but it was also free.

所以，它的出现有点出于必要，但它也是免费的。

So not only was it a better product than the alternatives out there, but it was also free.

因此，它不仅是比现有替代品更好的产品，而且还是免费的。

So, the combination of the viral loop and coming in through getting those first 10 users as part of the firm he was using and then the free aspect or I think what led to the first 2,000, and then 10,000, and millions of users from there.

因此，病毒循环和通过让前 10 个用户成为他所使用的公司的一部分而进入，然后是免费方面，或者我认为是什么导致了前 2,000 个，然后是 10,000 个，以及数百万用户。

Lenny: That is crazy.

莱尼：这太疯狂了。

I have never heard a story like that where the team that is building your product ends up being the source of initial growth.

我从未听说过这样的故事：构建产品的团队最终成为最初增长的源泉。

Lenny: Oh my God.

莱尼：天啊。

So many nice things happening in this history of Calendly.

Calendly 的历史上发生了很多美好的事情。

Lenny: And wow, in Ukraine.

莱尼：哇，在乌克兰。

So, I'm actually from Ukraine.

所以，我实际上来自乌克兰。

Lenny: Yeah, and it's also interesting that it's rare that you hear a successful business starts with contractor engineers.

莱尼：是的，而且有趣的是，你很少听说成功的企业是从承包商工程师开始的。

I think OICs are like, "Do not do that." So that's a cool counter example of it can actually work out, especially if they're your first users and spread it to others.

我认为伊斯兰会议组织就像是“不要那样做”。所以这是一个很酷的反例，它实际上可以发挥作用，特别是如果他们是你的第一个用户并将其传播给其他人。

Annie Pearl: And we still work with them.

Annie Pearl：我们仍然与他们合作。

They're fantastic and they have incredible engineers, so they're still part of our culture, which is great.

他们非常棒，拥有令人难以置信的工程师，所以他们仍然是我们文化的一部分，这很棒。

Lenny: So, Calendly got big in Ukraine, it sounds like initially.

莱尼：所以，Calendly 在乌克兰做大了，听起来像是一开始。

Lenny: What's something that would surprise people in terms of how Calendly grows today or grew through its history?

Lenny：就 Calendly 今天的发展或历史上的发展而言，有什么事情会让人们感到惊讶？

Annie Pearl: Most people probably think about Calendly as the scheduling link and really for individual users to reduce the back and forth of email and scheduling.

Annie Pearl：大多数人可能将 Calendly 视为日程安排链接，真正为个人用户减少电子邮件和日程安排的来回。

So, they think of that one-on-one use case and I think people would be surprised to learn that our team's business, so multiple users in an organization who want to collaboratively schedule together is growing much faster than our solo user business.

因此，他们想到了一对一的用例，我认为人们会惊讶地发现我们团队的业务，因此组织中希望一起协作安排的多个用户的增长速度比我们的单独用户业务快得多。

And that's really where the future of where we think growth will come from is supporting these teams of users who are in externally facing roles and selling into departments and supporting multi-departmental deployments of Calendly across an entire organization.

这确实是我们认为未来增长的来源，即支持这些面向外部的角色并向部门销售的用户团队，并支持整个组织中 Calendly 的多部门部署。

Annie Pearl: So, I think it's still really well known as this solo user tool to eliminate the back and forth of email, but the growth of what we're seeing and where we think it's going to go is actually more teams of users and departments of users and then multiple departments in an organization.

Annie Pearl：所以，我认为它仍然是众所周知的消除电子邮件来回的独立用户工具，但我们所看到的增长以及我们认为它的发展方向实际上是更多的用户团队和用户部门，然后是组织中的多个部门。

Lenny: It's interesting when you hear the story of Calendly that just has so many good things happening, basically for free, it's just grows so well.

Lenny：当你听到 Calendly 的故事时，这很有趣，它发生了很多好事，基本上是免费的，它发展得很好。

I think people don't realize you eventually will, that'll slow down, it'll taper off eventually.

我认为人们没有意识到你最终会，这会放慢速度，最终会逐渐减弱。

You'll need to drive growth very actively in these new ways that you're describing.

您需要以您所描述的这些新方式非常积极地推动增长。

And I think people don't often realize that they just wanted to find something that was viral and then things are going to go great, but it tapers off.

我认为人们通常不会意识到他们只是想找到一些病毒式传播的东西，然后事情就会进展顺利，但它会逐渐减弱。

Annie Pearl: Yeah.

安妮·珀尔：是的。

I mean, there's only so many people who, solo users who are going to pull out a credit card.

我的意思是，只有这么多人，单独用户会拿出信用卡。

And I think once you also get to hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue scale, just the law of large numbers, it means that growth will slow.

而且我认为一旦你也达到数亿美元的收入规模，仅根据大数定律，就意味着增长将会放缓。

And so, you have to figure out where's that next growth curve going to come from.

因此，你必须弄清楚下一条增长曲线从何而来。

I think the beauty of Calendly is that while we certainly have built features and functionality to support teams and departments, we got pulled there.

我认为 Calendly 的美妙之处在于，虽然我们确实已经构建了支持团队和部门的特性和功能，但我们还是被吸引到了那里。

It wasn't one of those things where we sort of said, "We need to find our next growth lever.

这并不是我们所说的“我们需要找到下一个增长杠杆。

Let's go build X." Our customers really pulled us there by the way that they were using the product.

我们去建造X吧。”我们的客户确实通过他们使用该产品的方式将我们吸引到了那里。

Annie Pearl: And so again, a very fortunate position to be in, but when you can see in the data and see how customers are using it, that they want to be working on scheduling with their teams, that was our early sign, that's where the business was going to go in the future.

Annie Pearl：再说一遍，这是一个非常幸运的位置，但是当你可以看到数据并看到客户如何使用它时，他们希望与他们的团队一起制定日程安排，这是我们的早期迹象，这就是未来业务的发展方向。

Lenny: I don't think I mentioned this, I'm paying user of Calendly.

Lenny：我想我没有提到这一点，我是 Calendly 的付费用户。

It's what I use for booking these podcast episodes.

我用它来预订这些播客剧集。

Lenny: You got me.

莱尼：你抓住了我。

I think I started when it was totally free and I was like, "How will they ever make money?" This is too much power.

我想我是在它完全免费的时候开始的，我当时想，“他们将如何赚钱？”这力量太大了。

Annie Pearl: And then, now, you learned that it was free almost by accident.

Annie Pearl：然后，现在，您几乎偶然得知它是免费的。

Lenny: Yep.

莱尼：是的。

I was like, "Yeah, please take my money.

我当时想，“是的，请拿走我的钱。

This makes my life easier." What are some fun or unique traditions and cultural kind of components of the Calendly product team?

这让我的生活更轻松。” Calendly 产品团队有哪些有趣或独特的传统和文化组成部分？

Annie Pearl: A couple of fun ones I thought we could talk about.

Annie Pearl：我想我们可以谈谈一些有趣的事情。

One, we have a meeting called OPA, which stands for opportunity/problem, assessment.

第一，我们有一个名为 OPA 的会议，它代表机会/问题、评估。

And so, what this is, it's a meeting where basically PMs, I don't even go to it's a meeting for PMs to really debate and discuss with each other and spar around either areas and problems that they want to go investigate or after they've gotten data back or research back from evaluating an opportunity, deciding whether we actually want to move forward and go try to develop a solution.

所以，这是什么，这是一个基本上是产品经理的会议，我什至不去参加这个会议，产品经理们可以真正地相互辩论和讨论，围绕他们想要调查的领域和问题进行争论，或者在他们从评估机会中获得数据或研究回来后，决定我们是否真的想继续前进并尝试开发解决方案。

So, it's really in the product development lifecycle of letting product managers really get into a room with each other on a frequent basis and just think through things, debate, discuss.

因此，在产品开发生命周期中，让产品经理真正经常坐在一起，思考问题、辩论、讨论。

And I know that they all get a lot of value out of that.

我知道他们都从中获得了很多价值。

Lenny: It reminds me of something just like a bad version of that.

莱尼：这让我想起了类似的糟糕版本。

I had a friend who was a PM at Zynga and he said there's a meeting where PMs present their plans to all the other PM.

我有一个朋友，他是 Zynga 的产品经理，他说有一个会议，产品经理们会向所有其他产品经理介绍他们的计划。

It was like you're in a shark tank where everyone's coming to destroy you.

就像你在一个鲨鱼池里，每个人都会来消灭你。

They just point out all the problems.

他们只是指出所有的问题。

That's all it ever is in this.

这就是一切。

Annie Pearl: I would say on this one, it's the opposite where I feel like everyone really needs the meeting.

Annie Pearl：我想说的是，在这一点上，情况正好相反，我觉得每个人都真正需要这次会议。

They're like, "Ugh, I really need to take this to OPA because I need to, I'm working through these problems and I really want to bounce it off of other people." So, I could imagine a world where it would be that.

他们会说，“呃，我真的需要把这个问题提交给 OPA，因为我需要这样做，我正在解决这些问题，我真的很想向其他人反馈。”所以，我可以想象一个这样的世界。

Actually, part of the reason I don't go to the meeting is that I really want everyone to be able to be open and transparent and provide feedback and not feel like there's any judgment from me or any needing to act a certain way because I'm in the room.

事实上，我不参加会议的部分原因是我真的希望每个人都能够公开透明并提供反馈，而不是因为我在房间里而觉得我有任何判断或需要以某种方式采取行动。

So, that's sort of why I intentionally don't go.

所以，这就是我故意不去的原因。

Annie Pearl: Another fun one we do is something we call competitive work gaming.

Annie Pearl：我们做的另一件有趣的事是我们所说的竞争性工作游戏。

So, on some sort of time interval, sometimes it's been quarterly, we'll have assigned people into groups for the quarter to own a competitor.

因此，在某种时间间隔内，有时是季度，我们会在该季度将人员分组以拥有竞争对手。

And their job is to essentially spend a lot of time immersing themselves into the product of the competitor, really trying to think through the lens of, do a SWAT analysis, really try to think through the lens of where's this competitor going and how Calendly only think about that and as it relates to our strategy.

他们的工作本质上是花大量时间让自己沉浸在竞争对手的产品中，真正尝试从这个角度思考，进行 SWAT 分析，真正尝试从这个竞争对手的走向以及 Calendly 如何只考虑这一点以及它与我们的战略相关的角度思考。

Annie Pearl: And so, we spent a quarter doing that and then we have the competitive war gaming day where every team comes and presents and there's prizes and it's a lot of fun, but it's a really great way to stay on top of what's happening across the market without requiring every product manager designer to be deep in the weeds, there are a lot of different competitors.

Annie Pearl：所以，我们花了四分之一的时间来做这件事，然后我们有竞争性的战争游戏日，每个团队都来展示，有奖品，这很有趣，但这是一个非常好的方法，可以了解整个市场正在发生的事情，而不需要每个产品经理设计师都深入了解，因为有很多不同的竞争对手。

We can bring all of that knowledge together through what we call competitive work gaming.

我们可以通过所谓的竞争性工作游戏将所有这些知识整合在一起。

Lenny: That is cool.

莱尼：那很酷。

It's really impressive how you do these exercises and they seem really positive and friendly and constructive.

你做这些练习的方式真的令人印象深刻，它们看起来非常积极、友好和建设性。

It sounds like there is a pretty unique culture at Calendly.

听起来 Calendly 有一种非常独特的文化。

I'm curious if there's anything else that's core to the values or the way that you think about the principles of building product at Calendly.

我很好奇是否还有其他核心价值观或您对 Calendly 构建产品原则的思考方式。

Annie Pearl: What I touched on earlier is really core to how we build product, which is honing in on this target user and honing in on our target market.

Annie Pearl：我之前谈到的确实是我们构建产品的核心，即针对目标用户和目标市场进行磨练。

I do think it's quite rare.

我确实认为这是非常罕见的。

I think in most organizations that I've seen, I think there's a desire to do that.

我认为在我见过的大多数组织中，我认为都有这样做的愿望。

But I think, again, when it push comes to shove, it's really hard for executives to make decisions that say no to things.

但我再次认为，当事情到了紧要关头时，高管们真的很难做出拒绝的决定。

One of Calendly's actually core principles is focus wisely.

Calendly 实际上的核心原则之一是明智地聚焦。

It's pretty deeply embedded into our culture.

它已经深深地融入了我们的文化中。

And so, I think one of the reasons that I've been successful in being able to create the clarity around who the target personas are is because I think it's embedded into the culture of Calendly to focus wisely.

因此，我认为我能够成功地明确目标人物角色的原因之一是因为我认为明智地聚焦已融入到 Calendly 的文化中。

Annie Pearl: So, I don't know that it'll work in every organization.

Annie Pearl：所以，我不知道它是否适用于每个组织。

I think many organizations really struggle to say no, and they're always adding more onto the plate versus taking off.

我认为许多组织确实很难拒绝，而且他们总是在增加更多的东西而不是起飞。

But I do think from an ethos perspective, there is something around focusing and the ability to focus to therefore deliver the highest quality of product that you can to your target customers.

但我确实认为，从精神的角度来看，有一些关于专注和专注的能力，从而为目标客户提供最高质量的产品。

That is unique and I think it starts with some of the broader cultural paradigms that exist at the company and then we've now embedded that into the way we think about how we build product.

这是独一无二的，我认为它始于公司存在的一些更广泛的文化范式，然后我们现在将其嵌入到我们思考如何构建产品的方式中。

Lenny: Is there anything else you do to instill that?

莱尼：你还做了什么来灌输这一点吗？

It sounds like it's a core value.

听起来这是一个核心价值。

Do you put posters around the office?

你在办公室周围张贴海报吗？

So how else do you keep people focused?

那么，你还能如何让人们集中注意力呢？

Annie Pearl: We're a fully remote company.

Annie Pearl：我们是一家完全远程办公的公司。

So, now you've got my brain going on.

所以，现在你已经让我的大脑运转起来了。

Are there some sort of virtual sticky notes that you could get people to put onto their laptops to remind them?

是否有某种虚拟便签可以让人们贴在笔记本电脑上以提醒他们？

Annie Pearl: Yeah, exactly.

安妮·珀尔：是的，完全正确。

Yeah, it's embedded into a lot of the documentation.

是的，它已嵌入到很多文档中。

So, it's embedded into the templates that I talked about in terms of, everything from sort of the way we structure that OPA, document that folks are going to be working on and debating too when they go to create the actual sort of PRD.

因此，它嵌入到我谈到的模板中，从我们构建 OPA 的方式到人们在创建实际类型的 PRD 时将要处理和讨论的文档，一切都包括在内。

When teams come in to present as part of our product reviews, we have a template that keeps reinforcing who's the target customer, who's the target user within that customer base, what are their needs and then how are we going to solve their needs better than any alternative that there is on the market.

当团队作为我们产品评论的一部分进行展示时，我们有一个模板，不断强调谁是目标客户，谁是该客户群中的目标用户，他们的需求是什么，然后我们将如何比市场上的任何替代方案更好地解决他们的需求。

So, I think there's lots of different reinforcing mechanisms to that focus.

因此，我认为有很多不同的强化机制可以强化这一重点。

Lenny: I feel like sometimes things like that come from a big problem the company had and then you index weigh the other side, focus, here's the four people we all build for.

莱尼：我觉得有时这样的事情来自公司遇到的一个大问题，然后你用指数权衡另一面，重点，这是我们为之打造的四个人。

It becomes instilled in the culture.

它被灌输到文化中。

Annie Pearl: And I think you're right.

安妮·珀尔：我认为你是对的。

I mean, because Calendly started as such a horizontal product, which was amazing because that's how it grew so virally and so it had the entry, the wedge into scheduling and how our first horizon and becoming the best horizontal scheduling automation platform was because we had that horizontal focus.

我的意思是，因为 Calendly 最初是一个横向产品，这很神奇，因为它如此迅速地发展，因此它进入了调度领域，并成为了最好的横向调度自动化平台，因为我们有横向焦点。

And so, it was a blessing.

所以，这是一种祝福。

But as we think about transitioning to horizon two, which is really about deepening our support for these teams and departmental users as well as verticals, that's I think the inflection point where we said, in order to shift us from horizon one to horizon two, we need to be making some real trade off decisions and we need to create this focus so that we can actually allow teams to go do that.

但当我们考虑过渡到地平线二时，这实际上是为了加深我们对这些团队和部门用户以及垂直领域的支持，我认为这就是我们所说的拐点，为了将我们从地平线一转向地平线二，我们需要做出一些真正的权衡决策，我们需要创建这个焦点，以便我们实际上可以允许团队这样做。

Annie Pearl: So, I think it's a really good point.

安妮·珀尔：所以，我认为这是一个非常好的观点。

We sort of had to create clarity around focus because we were trying to make a shift from broad horizontal platform serving lots of users to a deeper investment into specific users and specific teams of users within departments.

我们必须明确重点，因为我们试图从服务大量用户的广泛横向平台转向对部门内特定用户和特定用户团队进行更深入的投资。

Lenny: Before Calendly, you were at Box.

Lenny：在 Calendly 之前，你在 Box 工作。

Before that, you were at Glassdoor.

在此之前，您在 Glassdoor。

I'm going to ask two different questions.

我要问两个不同的问题。

You could pick which direction you want to go.

你可以选择你想去的方向。

What would you say are the biggest differences culturally between these three?

您认为这三者之间最大的文化差异是什么？

If you had to bucket, here's how I'd describe Glassdoor, Box, Calendly.

如果你非要说的话，我会这样描述 Glassdoor、Box、Calendly。

Or what did you take from those two places that you bring with you to Calendly and future opportunities?

或者你从这两个地方给 Calendly 带来了什么以及未来的机会？

Annie Pearl: I love this question.

安妮·珀尔：我喜欢这个问题。

So, they're all different, which is why I just feel so fortunate to have had experiences that were all quite different.

所以，它们都是不同的，这就是为什么我感到很幸运能够拥有完全不同的经历。

So, starting with Box, maybe I'll take your second question.

那么，从 Box 开始，也许我会回答你的第二个问题。

Box, when I joined, we were in the process of moving up market and trying to capture as much enterprise market share as possible, and I was on the enterprise product management team.

Box，当我加入时，我们正在向高端市场迈进，并试图占领尽可能多的企业市场份额，而我是企业产品管理团队的成员。

So, I spent a lot of time, as I mentioned earlier, talking to customers.

因此，正如我之前提到的，我花了很多时间与客户交谈。

And in my first year in particular trying to ramp on the business.

尤其是在我的第一年，我特别努力扩大业务。

And I'd say my biggest learning during that time was around how to ask the right questions to really understand the why behind what a customer was asking for and then figuring out how to build a solution to their problem that would also meet the needs of a broader swath of customers.

我想说，那段时间我最大的学习是如何提出正确的问题，以真正理解客户要求背后的原因，然后找出如何为他们的问题构建一个解决方案，同时满足更广泛客户的需求。

Annie Pearl: It became very clear early to me if I would just go build what customer A wanted and what customer B wanted and the customer C wanted, not only would that be wasted effort to do it three times, but more importantly, what they wanted me to go build was going to have a negative impact on the end user experience.

Annie Pearl：我很早就意识到，如果我只去构建客户 A 想要的、客户 B 想要的、客户 C 想要的，不仅会浪费精力做三次，而且更重要的是，他们希望我构建的东西会对最终用户体验产生负面影响。

And preserving that end user experience was so critical.

保持最终用户体验非常重要。

So, learning how to ask the right questions to understand the actual problem and then build the solution that's going to be most scalable to that problem set across lots of customers was probably my biggest learning from Box.

因此，学习如何提出正确的问题来理解实际问题，然后构建最适合大量客户的问题集的解决方案可能是我从 Box 学到的最大的东西。

Annie Pearl: Moving to Glassdoor, totally different business model.

Annie Pearl：转向 Glassdoor，完全不同的商业模式。

Glassdoor is actually really more of a consumer business and 60 million unique users go to Glassdoor every month and it's a marketplace between job seekers and employers and it's highly, highly dependent on the consumer engagement, growing traffic, getting that traffic to come and engage and apply to jobs.

Glassdoor 实际上更像是一家消费者业务，每月有 6000 万独立用户访问 Glassdoor，它是求职者和雇主之间的市场，它高度依赖于消费者的参与度、不断增长的流量、吸引流量来参与并申请工作。

And so, during my time as CPO there, I was responsible now for both sides of that marketplace, the consumer business and the B2B.

因此，在担任 CPO 期间，我现在负责该市场的双方：消费者业务和 B2B。

And so, I learned all about how do you build PR consumer products, how do you think about optimization of a funnel?

因此，我了解了如何构建公关消费产品，您如何看待渠道优化？

How do you think about building up a growth team and growth as a discipline?

您如何看待建立增长团队以及将增长作为一门学科？

How do you use data and AB testing to make decisions?

您如何使用数据和 AB 测试来做出决策？

Annie Pearl: So, I think that kind of consumer mentality and how you approach product, I then have brought with me to Calendly, which is really a blend of both, right?

Annie Pearl：所以，我认为这种消费者心态以及对待产品的方式，我把它带到了 Calendly，这确实是两者的融合，对吧？

Calendly is first, as we've talked about a PLG business and it looks a lot more like a consumer business like Glassdoor.

Calendly 是第一个，因为我们已经讨论过 PLG 业务，它看起来更像 Glassdoor 这样的消费者业务。

And then, it's got this direct selling business that looks a lot more like Box's enterprise business.

然后，它的直销业务看起来更像 Box 的企业业务。

So, I think I've been able to take kind of lessons learned from both Box and Glassdoor and apply them together to Calendly.

因此，我认为我已经能够从 Box 和 Glassdoor 中吸取经验教训，并将它们一起应用到 Calendly 中。

Lenny: What a cool set of experiences.

莱尼：真是一段很酷的经历。

I'm trying to imagine you using all three in the same day.

我试图想象你在同一天使用这三个。

Sending a Calendly, storing your files in a Box and looking at reviews...

发送日历、将文件存储在 Box 中并查看评论...

Lenny: And recruiting.

莱尼：还有招聘。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

Not looking for anything new.

不寻找任何新东西。

Okay.

好的。

Final question.

最后一个问题。

You are part of something called the Skip community, which I believe Nikhyl and a few people run.

你是 Skip 社区的一部分，我相信 Nikhyl 和一些人管理着这个社区。

And so, I'd love to just hear a little bit about that and maybe how folks can join if they might be a fit.

因此，我很想听听有关此内容的一些信息，以及如果人们适合的话如何加入。

Annie Pearl: Yeah, as you mentioned about two years ago, Nikhyl, who was the former CPO of Credit Karma and is now a VP of product at Meta, got a small group of CPOs together who were all going through similar phases of companies' growth, late stage growth companies, and we all were facing the same challenges in our roles.

Annie Pearl：是的，正如您大约两年前提到的那样，Nikhyl 是 Credit Karma 的前 CPO，现在是 Meta 的产品副总裁，他召集了一小群 CPO，他们都经历过公司成长的相似阶段，后期成长的公司，我们都在自己的角色中面临着同样的挑战。

And he formalized this community as a way to help us gather advice from one another, talk through how to manage challenges we're facing and just make us more successful in the roles.

他将这个社区正式化，作为一种帮助我们相互收集建议、讨论如何应对我们面临的挑战以及让我们在岗位上取得更大成功的方式。

And we always joke, we're like the support group.

我们总是开玩笑，我们就像支持小组。

Annie Pearl: We meet on Sundays and it has been incredibly valuable as I've sort of gone through the last couple of years in my role at Calendly.

Annie Pearl：我们每周日见面，这对我来说非常有价值，因为我在 Calendly 的角色经历了过去几年。

Since then, we've grown the group to about 23 heads of products and CPOs and expanded the charter a bit, which I think is interesting to help product leaders not just be successful in their current role, but also how to think about setting them up for success in the role after this.

从那时起，我们的团队已发展到大约 23 名产品负责人和首席产品官，并稍微扩大了章程，我认为这很有趣，不仅可以帮助产品负责人在当前的职位上取得成功，而且还可以考虑如何帮助他们为今后的职位取得成功做好准备。

Annie Pearl: And so, we're experimenting with a couple of different interesting ways to help product leaders grow.

Annie Pearl：因此，我们正在尝试几种不同的有趣方法来帮助产品领导者成长。

One of them is we're actually partnering with some companies right now to experiment with how can we help them as they're looking to make their first head of product hire or their first C O hire really hone in on what they're looking for and partnering with the talent partners we know to really help try to increase the success that they find the right candidates.

其中之一是，我们现在实际上正在与一些公司合作，尝试我们如何帮助他们，因为他们正在寻求让他们的第一位产品负责人或他们的第一位首席首席官招聘真正磨练他们正在寻找的东西，并与我们知道的人才合作伙伴合作，真正帮助他们增加找到合适候选人的成功率。

That's something interesting we're doing.

这是我们正在做的有趣的事情。

Annie Pearl: We also recently launched a podcast covering some topics like, how do you manage the next job search, how do you avoid burnout, breaking down things like equity, and other kind of timely topics.

Annie Pearl：我们最近还推出了一个播客，涵盖一些主题，例如，如何管理下一次求职，如何避免倦怠，分解股权等问题，以及其他及时的主题。

And then also, we just have an active Discord server where we've got all sorts of channels from topics, how to manage the CEO/CPO partnership, compensation, even sharing planning, even sharing some advising opportunities or other CPO roles that kind of come across our radar.

此外，我们还有一个活跃的 Discord 服务器，其中包含各种主题的渠道，包括如何管理 CEO/CPO 合作伙伴关系、薪酬，甚至共享计划，甚至共享一些我们关注的建议机会或其他 CPO 角色。

Annie Pearl: So, it's been a really, really cool kind of experiment to see how the power of the community.

Annie Pearl：所以，这是一个非常非常酷的实验，旨在了解社区的力量。

And I know Lenny, you do a ton of stuff around community, how that has helped all of us.

我知道莱尼，你在社区做了很多事情，这对我们所有人都有帮助。

I think it's just more effective in our roles and feel like we have a group of people who are behind us supporting us during what is a very hard role.

我认为这对我们的角色来说更加有效，并且感觉我们有一群人在我们身后支持我们，度过了一个非常艰难的角色。

Lenny: I love this.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

I imagine when people look at a CPO, they imagine they just know everything already.

我想当人们看到 CPO 时，他们会想象他们已经知道了一切。

They have a bunch of friends in the same role, but I think in reality, it's a lonely role a lot of times.

他们有一群朋友扮演同一个角色，但我认为实际上，很多时候这是一个孤独的角色。

And so, I could see the power of something like this just to help people understand who'd be a good fit for this, how do they go find it and yeah, it's like the .

因此，我可以看到这样的东西的力量，只是为了帮助人们了解谁适合这个，他们如何找到它，是的，它就像 .

Annie Pearl: The best thing to do is just follow the Skip community on LinkedIn.

Annie Pearl：最好的办法就是关注 LinkedIn 上的 Skip 社区。

And then, we're targeting head of products, call it series B, C and beyond, up to late stage growth companies and up to CPOs.

然后，我们的目标是产品负责人，称之为 B 系列、C 系列及其他系列，一直到后期成长型公司和 CPO。

So, I'd say start by following the Skip community and if you see folks in there who are in the group, reach out to them to get a sense of what it's like and what it would be like to join.

因此，我想说，首先要关注 Skip 社区，如果您看到该小组中的人，请与他们联系，了解该社区的情况以及加入该社区的感受。

Lenny: And then, it sounds like if you're a company hiring a CPO, maybe reach out too.

Lenny：然后，听起来如果您是一家正在招聘 CPO 的公司，也许也可以联系我们。

Annie Pearl: Yeah, that'd be great.

安妮·珀尔：是的，那就太好了。

That'd be great.

那太好了。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

And they do that by going to LinkedIn also and looking for the Skip community?

他们还通过访问 LinkedIn 并寻找 Skip 社区来做到这一点？

Lenny: Okay, cool.

莱尼：好的，酷。

We'll put all the links in the show notes as well.

我们还将把所有链接放在节目注释中。

Well, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

好了，至此，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got six questions for you.

我有六个问题要问你。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: What are two or three books that you recommend most to other people?

莱尼：您最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Annie Pearl: Playing to Win, so, I reference that one earlier, Good to Great, and Hooked.

Annie Pearl：为赢而战，所以，我参考了之前的一篇文章《从优秀到卓越》和《上瘾》。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

What's a favorite other podcast that you enjoy other than maybe this podcast?

除了这个播客之外，您最喜欢的其他播客是什么？

Annie Pearl: I think I got introduced to you by Harry from the 20VC, I think.

Annie Pearl：我想我是由 20VC 的 Harry 介绍给你的。

But if not, either way, I'll cross promote his podcast, which is a great one.

但如果没有，无论如何，我都会交叉推广他的播客，这是一个很棒的播客。

Lenny: Yeah, Harry's responsible for this podcast.

莱尼：是的，哈利负责这个播客。

I was on his podcast and he's like, "Lenny, you should be ".

我在他的播客上，他说，“莱尼，你应该这样做”。

Lenny: He's the godfather of this podcast.

莱尼：他是这个播客的教父。

Lenny: What's a favorite recent movie or TV show?

莱尼：最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

And you cannot say White Lotus.

你不能说白莲花。

Annie Pearl: I have two young kids.

安妮·珀尔：我有两个年幼的孩子。

So, whether I like it or not, Sing 2.

所以，不管我喜不喜欢，唱2吧。

It's a great movie, especially if you have young children.

这是一部很棒的电影，尤其是如果你有小孩的话。

Lenny: Sing 2.

莱尼：唱2。

So, it's like the second of Sing?

那么，这就像《Sing》的第二部吗？

Annie Pearl: It is.

安妮·珀尔：是的。

It is.

这是。

Distinct from Sing 1.

与《歌唱1》不同。

Sing 2 is better.

唱2比较好。

Lenny: It's better.

莱尼：好多了。

Okay, cool.

好吧，酷。

I haven't seen it.

我没见过。

Lenny: Okay, cool.

莱尼：好的，酷。

Favorite interview question that you like to ask people you interview.

您最喜欢问面试者的面试问题。

Annie Pearl: Talk me through your biggest product flop.

Annie Pearl：请跟我讲讲您最失败的产品。

What happened and what did you do about it?

发生了什么以及你对此做了什么？

Lenny: What do you look for in an answer?

莱尼：你希望得到什么答案？

What's a sign of something good in their answer?

他们的回答中有哪些好的迹象？

Annie Pearl: People being brutally honest around how bad it was and why it failed.

安妮·珀尔：人们对它有多糟糕以及它失败的原因非常诚实。

The rest of the interview, they're trying to tell you all the wonderful things they did and all the accomplishments they had.

在采访的其余部分，他们试图告诉你他们所做的所有精彩的事情以及他们取得的所有成就。

And so, I think the rawer the answer in terms of how bad it was and why, the better.

因此，我认为关于情况有多糟糕以及原因的答案越原始越好。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Next question.

下一个问题。

I think, you might have answered, what are top five SaaS products you use day-to-day, either at work or home, whatever?

我想，您可能会回答，您日常使用的前五种 SaaS 产品是什么，无论是在工作中还是在家中？

Annie Pearl: Slack, Miro, Loom, Pendo, and Confluence.

Annie Pearl：Slack、Miro、Loom、Pendo 和 Confluence。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

And these are actually, unlike other people's answers, so that's really interesting.

这些实际上与其他人的答案不同，所以这真的很有趣。

Kind of a unique stack you got there.

你那里有一种独特的堆栈。

Lenny: Final question.

莱尼：最后一个问题。

What's your best Calendly Pro tip?

您最好的 Calendly Pro 提示是什么？

Annie Pearl: Yeah, so we just launched a new feature that I'm loving personally called Customized Once and Share.

Annie Pearl：是的，我们刚刚推出了一项我个人很喜欢的新功能，称为“定制一次并共享”。

So, this really allows you to make changes on the fly to an event type and tweak things like title or duration or override a date based on the person you're actually sending it to without having to go create a brand new event type just to make one small change based on the recipient.

因此，这确实允许您即时更改事件类型，并根据实际发送对象来调整标题或持续时间等内容或覆盖日期，而不必创建一个全新的事件类型，只是为了根据收件人进行一个小更改。

So, it's that one-off use case where you need to make a little bit of a change on the fly depending on who you're sending it to, but you don't want to go through the effort of creating a brand-new event type.

因此，这是一次性用例，您需要根据将其发送给谁来即时进行一些更改，但您不想花费精力创建全新的事件类型。

So, I'm loving it and you should check it out.

所以，我很喜欢它，你应该看看。

Lenny: That is awesome.

莱尼：那太棒了。

I need that.

我需要那个。

I find that I need to block dates out and change times and I just like go do that on my calendar, in my Calendly.

我发现我需要阻止日期和更改时间，我只是喜欢在我的日历上、在我的 Calendly 中执行此操作。

Lenny: All right.

莱尼：好吧。

Annie, this was amazing.

安妮，这太棒了。

We learned a ton about Calendly growth product building.

我们学到了大量有关 Calendly 增长产品构建的知识。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can people find you online if they want to learn more and reach out, maybe ask some questions.

如果人们想了解更多信息并联系您，或者问一些问题，可以在哪里找到您。

And two, how can listeners be useful to you?

第二，听众如何对你有用？

Annie Pearl: Finding me, best place online is LinkedIn.

Annie Pearl：找到我，最好的在线场所是 LinkedIn。

And then, in terms of being helpful to me, one we're hiring at Calendly.

然后，就对我有帮助而言，我们正在 Calendly 招聘一名员工。

So, explore open roles on the product team at Calendly if you're interested.

因此，如果您有兴趣，请探索 Calendly 产品团队的空缺职位。

Share any feedback for me on this episode@a.pearl@calendly.com.

请与我分享有关此剧集的任何反馈@a.pearl@calendly.com。

And then, as we talked about, would love to have you follow the Skip community on LinkedIn as well.

然后，正如我们所讨论的，希望您也关注 LinkedIn 上的 Skip 社区。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

We'll have all those links in the show notes.

我们将在演出笔记中提供所有这些链接。

Annie, thank you again for being here.

安妮，再次感谢你来到这里。

Lenny: Bye, everyone.

莱尼：再见，大家。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcast、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。