Becoming more strategic, navigating difficult colleagues, founder mode, more | Anneka Gupta

Anneka Gupta: When people say, "I want someone that's strategic," what they're really saying is, "I want someone that can come up with and articulate a compelling and simple why behind the decisions and the direction of the company and product." So that's number one.

Anneka Gupta：当人们说“我想要一个有战略眼光的人”时，他们真正想说的是，“我想要一个能够提出并阐明公司和产品的决策和方向背后令人信服且简单的原因的人。”所以这是第一。

And the second piece is, "I want someone that's going to champion and be a change agent to do things that may be hard but actually best for the long-term interest of the product or company, even though those things are not going to be easy to execute on." And I think if you have one without the other, ultimately people are not going to see you as strategic.

第二部分是，“我希望有人能够支持并成为变革推动者，去做那些可能很困难但实际上最有利于产品或公司的长期利益的事情，尽管这些事情并不容易执行。”我认为，如果两者缺一不可，最终人们不会认为你具有战略意义。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Anneka Gupta.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天我的客人是 Anneka Gupta。

Anneka is Chief Product Officer at Rubrik, a lecturer on product management at Stanford University's Graduate School of Business and on the board of Tinuiti.

Anneka 是 Rubrik 的首席产品官、斯坦福大学商学院产品管理讲师以及 Tinuiti 董事会成员。

Previously, she was President, GM, and head of product at LiveRamp, where she spent 11 years and joined as one of their earliest employees.

此前，她曾担任 LiveRamp 的总裁、总经理和产品主管，在那里工作了 11 年，并作为最早的员工之一加入。

A bunch of former guests recommended Anneka Come on this podcast and you'll soon see why.

一群以前的客人推荐 Anneka 加入这个播客，您很快就会明白原因。

Lenny Rachitsky: In our conversation, Anneka shares a ton of powerful advice on navigating difficult personalities, giving and hearing hard feedback, bringing humor and gratitude to every situation, managing your energy versus managing your time.

Lenny Rachitsky：在我们的谈话中，Anneka 分享了很多强有力的建议，涉及如何应对困难的性格、给予和听取严厉的反馈、为每种情况带来幽默和感激、管理你的精力而不是管理你的时间。

Super tactical tips for how to become more strategic and how to make better decisions, and also how to break into product management for people that are trying to become product managers.

关于如何变得更具战略性、如何做出更好的决策，以及如何为那些想成为产品经理的人进入产品管理的超级战术技巧。

There's something in this episode for everyone and I am excited for you to learn from Anneka.

这一集对每个人都有好处，我很高兴您能向 Anneka 学习。

If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

It's the best way to avoid missing feature episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously.

这是避免错过专题节目的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

With that, I bring you Anneka Gupta.

接下来，我为您带来安妮卡·古普塔。

Anneka, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

Anneka，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Lenny Rachitsky: So, I want to start with a question that I've started to ask guests that come on the podcast that have had extraordinarily successful careers and also just consistently successful careers.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以，我想从一个问题开始，我已经开始向播客中的嘉宾提问，他们的职业生涯非常成功，而且职业生涯一直很成功。

So here's the question.

那么问题来了。

What do you believe are one or two skills or mindsets or habits that you think most contributed to your success that you think might be helpful for other people to learn and build to help them have more successful careers?

您认为对您的成功最有帮助的一两项技能、心态或习惯是什么，您认为哪些技能、心态或习惯可能有助于其他人学习和培养，以帮助他们获得更成功的职业生涯？

Anneka Gupta: So it's funny, before we kicked this off, you talked about the post-it that you have on your computer that says have fun.

Anneka Gupta：这很有趣，在我们开始之前，您谈到了计算机上的便利贴，上面写着“玩得开心”。

My one mindset that I really have leaned into after someone actually gave me advice on this is to figure out how to have fun in my job, even in the most difficult of times.

在有人实际向我提供这方面的建议后，我真正倾向于的一种心态是弄清楚如何在工作中获得乐趣，即使是在最困难的时期。

The reason why I say that is because when you're hit with really hard times, it's easy to operate from a mindset of scarcity and to look at everything as an unachievable hurdle to overcome.

我之所以这样说，是因为当你遇到真正困难的时候，你很容易以稀缺的心态来运作，并将一切视为难以克服的障碍。

And when I was able to switch my mindset and say, "Well, I'm actually going to figure out a way to have fun with this," it actually changed my entire for how to deal with super difficult situations.

当我能够转变心态并说：“好吧，我实际上会想出一种方法来享受这个乐趣”时，它实际上改变了我如何处理超级困难情况的整个过程。

Anneka Gupta: This advice specifically came up to me when I had a scenario where I had to essentially change out all of my direct reports in very short order, and I figured that out.

Anneka Gupta：当我遇到这样一种情况时，我特别想到了这个建议：我必须在很短的时间内基本上改变我的所有直接报告，我想通了。

It was a super daunting situation.

这是一个非常令人畏惧的情况。

I didn't know how I was going to manage and at first I felt so scared by what was ahead of me and how much change I was going to have to go through in a very short period of time.

我不知道自己该如何应对，一开始我对即将发生的事情以及在很短的时间内必须经历多少变化感到非常害怕。

But when I got this advice, I started to try to reframe my thinking and it actually really made it so that I was able to get through that hard time and opened my mind up to so many more opportunities.

但当我得到这个建议时，我开始尝试重新构建我的思维，它确实让我能够度过那段困难时期，并为更多的机会敞开心扉。

So, now I try to embody that in every situation that I come across where I'm faced with something super, super challenging.

所以，现在我尝试在我遇到的每一个面临超级、超级挑战的情况下体现这一点。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love this advice.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个建议。

It's something that I've recently seen also in public speaking.

我最近在公开演讲中也看到了这一点。

If you can just reframe your thinking from "I'm scared of this" to "This is going to be fun.

如果你能将你的想法从“我害怕这个”转变为“这会很有趣。

I'm going to have so much fun doing this.

这样做我会很开心。

It's going to be like this energy and anxiety I'm feeling is me feeling like it's going to be a lot of fun." So, spending a little more time here, how do you actually do this?

我感受到的能量和焦虑会让我感觉这会很有趣。”那么，在这里多花一点时间，你实际上是如何做到这一点的呢？

So in this case, you shared an example of basically you have to fire a bunch of people, not something one can quickly think about how to have fun with that.

所以在这种情况下，你分享了一个例子，基本上你必须解雇一群人，而不是人们可以很快想到如何从中获得乐趣的事情。

How did you do this?

你是怎么做到的？

Is it just in your mind you're like, "I'm going to have fun with this," or is there something tactically people can do to make something fun?

你只是在心里想，“我会从中获得乐趣”，还是人们可以采取一些策略来让事情变得有趣？

Anneka Gupta: I think there were a couple of things that I did and I've continued to do.

Anneka Gupta：我认为我做了一些事情并且我会继续做。

One is figure out and really look at the situation and ask myself, what can I learn from this situation?

一是弄清楚并真正审视情况并问自己，我可以从这种情况中学到什么？

What can I get out of this that's a positive outcome even though it is incredibly challenging to be facing it right now?

尽管现在面临的挑战非常大，但我能从这个积极的结果中得到什么？

So that's one thing that I've done.

这就是我所做的一件事。

The second thing I think that has been really helpful is in going into meetings or other situations where I was trying to figure out how to collectively solve some big challenge, figuring out how to bring humor into the meeting.

我认为真正有帮助的第二件事是在参加会议或其他情况时，我试图找出如何共同解决一些重大挑战，找出如何将幽默带入会议。

Just starting it on a light note and that elevated my own mood and way I was approaching the meeting, but also adds a level of levity to the situation for other people as well, which I think as a leader is super important because it's not just about your own mindset, but how are you transferring that mindset to the people that you're working with and the people that are working for you.

以轻松的方式开始，这提升了我自己的情绪和我参加会议的方式，但也给其他人的情况增添了一定程度的轻松感，我认为作为领导者，这一点非常重要，因为这不仅仅是你自己的心态，而是你如何将这种心态转移到与你一起工作的人和为你工作的人身上。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

So part of it is just like, "How do I add a little humor?" Part of it is just thinking, "How do I make this fun?" Is part of this just like this is not as important as people make it out to be and we could just have a little fun with this thing.

所以其中一部分就像“我如何添加一点幽默？”其中一部分只是想，“我怎样才能让这件事变得有趣？”是这件事的一部分，就像这并不像人们想象的那么重要，我们可以享受这件事带来的乐趣。

It doesn't have to be like we're not curing cancer.

我们不一定非得不能治愈癌症。

Anneka Gupta: Yeah, definitely I think that helps.

Anneka Gupta：是的，我认为这确实有帮助。

Reflecting on this too, I feel like a lot of it comes down to the amount of emotional and mental energy I can bring to solving a problem.

反思这一点，我觉得很大程度上取决于我为解决问题所能投入的情感和精神能量。

And there's always so much going on in life, like personal life as well as professional life, trying to figure out how can I architect my day and time to maximize my energy and be able to bring my full self to work and to these difficult so that I can have that mindset to look at things more broadly versus operating from a place of scarcity.

生活中总是有很多事情发生，比如个人生活和职业生活，我试图弄清楚如何规划我的一天和时间，以最大限度地发挥我的能量，并能够将我的全部精力投入到工作和困难中，这样我就可以拥有更广泛的思维方式来看待事物，而不是在匮乏的地方工作。

That may come down to simple things like making sure that I have lunch.

这可能归结为一些简单的事情，比如确保我吃午饭。

Sometimes when things get so busy you're like, "Oh, I'm just going to grab a protein bar and I'm going to skip lunch." But I found that that really decreases my energy.

有时，当事情变得如此忙碌时，你会想，“哦，我只想吃一根蛋白质棒，然后我就不吃午餐了。”但我发现这确实降低了我的精力。

Anneka Gupta: Or, trying to do things that are really difficult late in the day.

Anneka Gupta：或者，尝试在当天晚些时候做一些非常困难的事情。

Five to 6:00 PM is my worst time of day and I know that about myself, so I'm not going to schedule in my most difficult meeting or writing up a strategy deck or something for that period of time because I know that that's not going to be my best and it's actually going to make it more difficult for me to get the work done.

下午 5:00 到下午 6:00 是我一天中最糟糕的时间，我自己也知道这一点，所以我不会在这段时间安排最困难的会议，也不会写策略清单或其他东西，因为我知道那不会是我最好的，而且实际上会让我更难完成工作。

Being able to manage my energy levels and figuring out how to schedule my time for my energy has really allowed me also to figure out how to have that abundant mindset in all situations.

能够管理我的精力水平并弄清楚如何安排我的精力时间，这确实让我也弄清楚了如何在所有情况下都拥有丰富的心态。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by the Enterprise Ready Conference, a one-day event in San Francisco, bringing together product and engineering leaders shaping the future of enterprise SaaS.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Enterprise Ready Conference 为您带来，这是在旧金山举行的为期一天的活动，汇聚了塑造企业 SaaS 未来的产品和工程领导者。

The event features a curated list of speakers with direct experience building for the enterprise, including leaders from OpenAI, Vanta, Checker, Dropbox and Canva.

此次活动精选了一批具有直接企业建设经验的演讲者名单，其中包括来自 OpenAI、Vanta、Checker、Dropbox 和 Canva 的领导者。

Topics included advanced identity management, compliance, encryption, and logging essentially at complex features that most enterprise customers require.

主题包括高级身份管理、合规性、加密和日志记录，本质上是大多数企业客户所需的复杂功能。

If you're a founder, exec, product manager or engineer tasked with the enterprise roadmap, this conference is for you.

如果您是负责制定企业路线图的创始人、执行官、产品经理或工程师，那么本次会议适合您。

You'll get detailed insights from industry leaders that have years of experience navigating the same challenges that you face today.

您将从行业领导者那里获得详细的见解，他们在应对您今天面临的相同挑战方面拥有多年的经验。

And best of all, it's completely free since it's hosted by WorkOS.

最重要的是，它是完全免费的，因为它由 WorkOS 托管。

Spots are filling up quickly.

名额很快就满了。

Make sure to request an invite at EnterpriseReady.com.

请务必在 EnterpriseReady.com 上请求邀请。

That's EnterpriseReady.com.

这就是 EnterpriseReady.com。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today's episode is brought to you by Command AI.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天的节目由 Command AI 为您带来。

If you're like me and most users that I've built product for, you're probably used to chatbots at the bottom right of websites where you ask a question and it says something like, "Check out these three helpful articles.

如果您像我和我为其构建产品的大多数用户一样，您可能已经习惯了网站右下角的聊天机器人，您在其中提出问题，它会说“查看这三篇有用的文章。

Did that answer your question?" And then you click away and then a few seconds later you get bombarded with some other useless pop-ups.

这回答了你的问题吗？”然后你点击离开，几秒钟后你就会受到其他一些无用的弹出窗口的轰炸。

For those of us who work on software, no one wants their product to feel like this.

对于我们这些从事软件工作的人来说，没有人希望他们的产品是这样的。

Command AI is an AI power toolkit for support, product, growth and marketing teams that embeds in your company's product.

Command AI 是一个人工智能强大工具包，适用于嵌入到您公司产品中的支持、产品、增长和营销团队。

Lenny Rachitsky: The AI support agent can deflect upwards of 80% of support questions providing actually useful answers, and it can magically co-browse with your users to show them around your interface.

Lenny Rachitsky：AI 支持代理可以转移 80% 以上的支持问题，提供实际有用的答案，并且它可以神奇地与用户共同浏览，向他们展示您的界面。

They do pop-ups too, but their nudges are based on in-product behaviors like confusion or intent classification, which makes them much less annoying and much more impactful.

他们也做弹出窗口，但他们的推动是基于产品内的行为，如混淆或意图分类，这使得它们不那么烦人，而且更有影响力。

Command AI works with web apps, mobile apps and websites, and they work with industry-leading companies like Gusto, Freshworks, HashiCorp, LaunchDarkly, and over 25 million end-users interact with Command AI interfaces.

Command AI 可与 Web 应用程序、移动应用程序和网站配合使用，并与 Gusto、Freshworks、HashiCorp、LaunchDarkly 等行业领先公司合作，超过 2500 万最终用户与 Command AI 界面进行交互。

To try out Command AI, you can sign up at command.ai/Lenny and experience a custom demo of how it works in your app.

要试用 Command AI，您可以在 command.ai/Lenny 上注册并体验其在您的应用程序中如何工作的自定义演示。

That's command.ai/Lenny.

那是command.ai/Lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm going to go in a totally different direction.

Lenny Rachitsky：我将走向一个完全不同的方向。

Before we were recording, we were also chatting about founder mode, and this is recently.

在我们录制之前，我们也在聊创始人模式，这是最近的事情。

This episode we're recording shortly after Paul Graham put out his now classic, instant classic founder mode post.

我们在保罗·格雷厄姆（Paul Graham）发表他现在经典的即时经典创始人模式帖子后不久录制了这一集。

And he had some really interesting takes on ways to think about founder mode, both from product leader perspective, from a founder perspective.

他对如何思考创始人模式有一些非常有趣的看法，无论是从产品领导者的角度，还是从创始人的角度。

So, there's kind of two questions I want to ask, but just broadly, what's your take on founder mode?

所以，我想问两个问题，但总的来说，您对创始人模式有何看法？

Anneka Gupta: Well, first of all, I think Paul Graham did an amazing thing by putting a name to something so many of us have seen in practice.

Anneka Gupta：首先，我认为 Paul Graham 为我们很多人在实践中看到的东西命名，做了一件了不起的事情。

And while he didn't in his article say this is exactly what this is, I think many, many people that I talked to were like, "Oh yeah, I recognize this." I recognize people that I've worked for, CEOs, that have done founder mode, great founders that have done founder mode poorly.

虽然他没有在文章中说这到底是什么，但我认为与我交谈过的很多很多人都会说，“哦，是的，我认识到这一点。”我认识到我曾经工作过的人，比如首席执行官，他们采用了创始人模式，伟大的创始人却在创始人模式方面做得很差。

And it opened up a level of discussion that I think is really valuable for everyone to be having, whether you're a founder or you're someone that works for a founder.

它开启了一定程度的讨论，我认为这对每个人来说都是非常有价值的，无论你是创始人还是为创始人工作的人。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so I'm going to ask two questions around this.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，我要围绕这个问题问两个问题。

One is from the perspective of working for a founder and founder mode, the other is being a product leader in founder mode.

一种是从为创始人和创始人模式工作的角度出发，另一种是在创始人模式下做产品负责人。

So, first of all, imagine you've worked with a few founders that operate in founder mode.

因此，首先，假设您与一些以创始人模式运作的创始人合作过。

As a CPO, as head of product, that's often a difficult place to be between the founder and the team that are building the thing.

作为首席产品官和产品负责人，创始人和构建产品的团队之间的关系通常很困难。

What have you learned about how to effectively work as a product leader with a founder in founder mode?

关于如何作为产品领导者在创始人模式下与创始人一起有效工作，您学到了什么？

Anneka Gupta: So, I think when a founder's in founder mode and if they're doing it well, what they're doing is really deeply understanding the business and then figuring out when to use their power as a founder to either tweak things and send something in a slightly different direction or fundamentally innovate and completely change directions or completely innovate in a totally new area.

Anneka Gupta：所以，我认为，当创始人处于创始人模式时，如果他们做得很好，他们所做的就是真正深入了解业务，然后弄清楚何时利用创始人的权力来调整事物并朝稍微不同的方向发送某些内容，或者从根本上进行创新并彻底改变方向或在全新领域进行彻底创新。

Now I think the way to use that effectively as a head of product is to recognize that they have that power to figure out how to use that power to get the things done that you know are best for the company.

现在我认为，作为产品负责人，有效利用这一权力的方法是认识到他们有能力弄清楚如何利用这种权力来完成你认为对公司最有利的事情。

So, I always think about I have all the people around me.

所以，我总是想着我身边的所有人。

Whether they're people on my team, my peers, or my CEO, these are different resources I have to go get a initiative done or get work done in the company.

无论他们是我的团队成员、我的同事还是我的首席执行官，这些都是我在公司完成计划或完成工作所必须的不同资源。

Anneka Gupta: And as having a founder that can effectively operate in founder mode means that I can go and have a conversation with the CEO and say, "Hey, look, we have this huge opportunity and these are the things that aren't working, and I need your help to help figure out how we can move the needle more substantially in the direction that we need to go." And so activating that founder, that CEO to really be able to push the initiative that I think is best by making them an ally in doing so.

Anneka Gupta：拥有一位能够以创始人模式有效运作的创始人意味着我可以去与首席执行官进行对话，并说：“嘿，看，我们有这个巨大的机会，但这些都是行不通的事情，我需要你的帮助来帮助弄清楚我们如何才能更大幅度地朝着我们需要走的方向前进。”因此，激活创始人、首席执行官，让他们成为这样做的盟友，真正能够推动我认为最好的举措。

I think one aspect.

我认为一方面。

The second aspect is, which often happens, it's very difficult for many people and I've had this happen to me many times, is when a founder is like, "Well, I have this idea," and then you may or may not agree that that's the best direction to go in and how do you navigate that kind of situation?

第二个方面是经常发生的，这对很多人来说非常困难，我已经多次遇到这种情况，就是当创始人说，“好吧，我有这个想法”，然后你可能同意也可能不同意这是最好的方向，你如何应对这种情况？

Anneka Gupta: So, one is actually taking a step back and objectively saying, "Well, why are they pushing this?" Maybe it's the wrong mechanism to go actually get done a strategy that's quite important for the company.

Anneka Gupta：所以，人们实际上是退后一步，客观地说：“好吧，他们为什么要推动这个？”也许这是一个错误的机制，无法真正完成对公司来说非常重要的战略。

So having a really deep understanding about why are they asking this, what are they ultimately trying to get at and what is the objective that they're trying to get at and is this the right way to get at it?

因此，要真正深入地了解他们为什么要问这个问题，他们最终想要达到什么目标，他们想要达到的目标是什么，这是实现目标的正确方法吗？

If the answer is no to that, then you can go have a conversation.

如果答案是否定的，那么你们可以去谈谈。

If you know what the objective is, you can go have a conversation with that founder and say, "Hey, look, I know this is what you're trying to do, but maybe instead of looking at option A here of how we go about tackling this, we should have explored these three other options instead." And that can help you and help navigate that conversation.

如果你知道目标是什么，你可以与那位创始人交谈并说：“嘿，听着，我知道这就是你想要做的事情，但也许我们不应该考虑这里的选项A来解决这个问题，而应该探索其他三个选项。”这可以帮助您并帮助引导对话。

Anneka Gupta: Now sometimes it's difficult to even get to that kind of understanding of the objective because someone might be just super set in their ways of, "Hey, I really want to go after this opportunity.

Anneka Gupta：现在有时甚至很难对目标有这样的理解，因为有人可能非常固执地认为，“嘿，我真的很想抓住这个机会。

It's my pet project." Then you have to decide as a head of product, do I really want to fight this or do I just give in on this, let it go?

这是我最喜欢的项目。”然后，作为产品负责人，你必须决定，我是否真的想与之抗争，还是只是屈服、放手？

And also make sure that we get the stuff done that's most important to the company.

还要确保我们完成对公司最重要的事情。

You have to make that judgment call as a head of product and decide what is really going to make or break the company.

作为产品负责人，你必须做出判断，并决定什么才是真正造就或毁掉公司的因素。

What's the hill that I'm going to die on and is this something that I can shift or is this something that is not worth shifting?

我将死在哪座山上？这是我可以移动的东西还是不值得移动的东西？

Of course it comes down to the personality.

当然，这取决于个性。

I've been very fortunate that I've actually had very few of those situations where the founder has been like, "Hey, I really want to go in this direction and I haven't agreed, at least with what we're trying to go after, regardless of the mechanism behind it."

我很幸运，实际上我很少遇到创始人这样的情况：“嘿，我真的很想朝这个方向发展，但我还没有同意，至少没有同意我们想要追求的目标，无论其背后的机制如何。”

Lenny Rachitsky: I really love the point you made, especially about how the founder could be this lever to get things done.

Lenny Rachitsky：我真的很喜欢你提出的观点，尤其是关于创始人如何成为完成工作的杠杆。

When you identify something needs to change, the best way to change that is just have the founder go in there, tell everyone, "Hey, we're going to do this thing differently." It's such like a positive spin on how to leverage founder mode where a founder actually has a lot of power to change that other people in the company don't.

当你发现某些事情需要改变时，最好的改变方法就是让创始人走进去，告诉每个人，“嘿，我们将以不同的方式做这件事。”这就像如何利用创始人模式的积极旋转，创始人实际上拥有很大的权力来改变公司的其他人却没有。

Okay, so let's go from the other side.

好吧，那我们从另一边去吧。

So, I was talking to Nikhyl Singhal who runs the Skip, which is a community you're part of about you.

所以，我正在与 Skip 的运营者 Nikhyl Singhal 交谈，这是一个关于你的社区。

And he said that you're a leader who excels in founder mode, that you operate in founder mode a lot.

他说你是一位擅长创始人模式的领导者，你经常以创始人模式运作。

And so as a product leader, what have you learned about just how to think in founder mode, operate in founder mode, leverage that approach to leading teams, leading product teams?

那么作为产品领导者，您学到了什么关于如何以创始人模式思考、如何以创始人模式运作、如何利用这种方法来领导团队、领导产品团队？

Anneka Gupta: Yeah, I think it's often easy as a leader to say, "I'm not going to roll up my sleeves and get into the details of the business or ask a lot of detailed questions about the business because you want to empower people and make them successful." What I've found is that understanding the details of the business and asking questions and understanding to the utmost extent you can, what's working, what's not, what are the financial goals of the business?

Anneka Gupta：是的，我认为作为领导者通常很容易说：“我不会卷起袖子深入了解业务细节或提出很多有关业务的详细问题，因为你想赋予人们权力并让他们成功。”我发现，了解企业的​​细节并提出问题并尽最大程度地了解什么有效，什么无效，企业的财务目标是什么？

Are we on track to get there?

我们能顺利实现目标吗？

How are we making decisions?

我们如何做决定？

Getting into that level of depth is super important, and then you can decide as a leader, what do you want to do with that information?

深入了解这一点非常重要，然后你可以作为领导者决定，你想用这些信息做什么？

So there's a lot of information that I collect about what's happening in the organization, the decisions that we're making that I don't do anything with at a point in time.

因此，我收集了很多关于组织中正在发生的事情、我们正在做出的决策的信息，但我在某个时间点上没有做任何事情。

Anneka Gupta: That's my choice to make, but I want the information because in understanding the depth and what is happening, I can decide where I actually think I need to go in deep and make either very significant course correction or a small course correction.

Anneka Gupta：这是我的选择，但我想要这些信息，因为在了解深度和正在发生的事情时，我可以决定我实际上认为我需要深入的地方，并进行非常重大的方向修正或小的方向修正。

Then the way that I think about how do I bring my team along for that so they don't feel like I'm coming in and stomping all over the work that they're doing or trying to re-adjudicate a decision, one, is how do I get in there early?

然后我思考如何带领我的团队一起做这件事，这样他们就不会觉得我介入并践踏他们正在做的所有工作或试图重新做出决定，一是我如何尽早介入？

Anneka Gupta: One of the tactics I use is I ask people to present their strategies for things that I think we may need to do a course correction on, and I have them come in and then I ask them questions and then I make suggestion.

Anneka Gupta：我使用的策略之一是我要求人们针对我认为我们可能需要进行路线修正的事情提出他们的策略，然后我让他们进来，然后我问他们问题，然后我提出建议。

And I'm able to do that in a forum where it doesn't feel like I'm coming in and rewriting the entire strategy, but I'm giving them there an opportunity to present their best thinking and then trying to figure out how do I take that and make that better and make them feel like I'm making it better versus stomping all over and dismissing the work that they've done.

我可以在一个论坛上做到这一点，在那里我不会觉得我进来重写整个策略，但我给他们一个机会展示他们最好的想法，然后尝试找出我如何接受它并使其变得更好，让他们觉得我正在让它变得更好，而不是全盘跺脚并驳回他们所做的工作。

Anneka Gupta: I pick a strategic set of areas.

Anneka Gupta：我选择了一组战略领域。

So I think about what is most important for the business?

所以我想，对于企业来说，什么是最重要的？

What's going to kill the business if we don't get right and what are the biggest opportunities for the business that we need to go after regardless of how difficult it is for us to actually execute on that?

如果我们做得不对，什么会扼杀我们的业务？无论我们实际执行起来有多困难，我们需要抓住的最大业务机会是什么？

By doing that, then at least I have clarity in my mind and I can provide clarity to the team about what is most important and rally the troops around making that stuff happen if that is what is essentially right.

通过这样做，至少我的头脑很清晰，我可以向团队明确什么是最重要的，并且如果这本质上是正确的，那么我可以团结起来让事情发生。

And I'll have all the context because I've asked all the questions of why this is right for the business, why is this going to help us with increased margins or get better growth or get into a new persona if that's what we're trying to do as an overall organization.

我将了解所有背景信息，因为我已经问了所有问题：为什么这适合我们的业务，为什么这会帮助我们提高利润或获得更好的增长或进入新的角色（如果这是我们作为一个整体组织正在努力做的事情）。

Lenny Rachitsky: So in that example, and I love this tactic, you have your team come in, you ask them, "Tell me what the strategy is for this thing that you're working on." What you've seen work is instead of like, "No, this is broken, this is wrong, this isn't going to work." Your approach is ask questions and hope that they see the flaws or gaps.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以在那个例子中，我喜欢这种策略，你让你的团队进来，你问他们，“告诉我你正在做的事情的策略是什么。”你所看到的工作并不是这样的，“不，这坏了，这是错误的，这行不通。”你的方法是提出问题并希望他们看到缺陷或差距。

Is that how-

是这样吗——

Anneka Gupta: Yeah, it's ask questions, but you can't always lead someone somewhere with asking questions.

Anneka Gupta：是的，就是问问题，但你不能总是通过问问题来引导某人去某个地方。

It's also sharing a hypothesis.

它还分享了一个假设。

So I might have a particular hypothesis about the business where I might see something like, "Well, I was talking to security leaders in our customer advisory board recently and I heard this piece of feedback and this is what it made me think about our strategy, what do you think about that?" And then let them say like, "Okay, yeah, actually I see this or maybe I have some follow up questions."

因此，我可能会对业务有一个特殊的假设，我可能会看到这样的内容：“嗯，我最近与客户咨询委员会的安全领导者交谈，我听到了这条反馈，这让我思考我们的策略，你对此有何看法？”然后让他们说，“好吧，是的，实际上我看到了这个，或者也许我有一些后续问题。”

Anneka Gupta: It actually opens a whole discussion where I'm still able to provide my perspective and point of view but not completely shut down the discussion.

Anneka Gupta：它实际上开启了整个讨论，我仍然能够提供我的观点和观点，但不会完全结束讨论。

Because what I always worry about is a leader is I'm going to come in and say something, and because I'm one of the more senior people in the room, no one is going to say if they have a concern.

因为我总是担心领导者会进来说些什么，而且因为我是房间里资历较深的人之一，所以没有人会说他们是否有疑虑。

And the reality is I'm not always right far from it, but I want to be able to seed an assumption and then have a discussion based on that and then figure out what the right outcome is about what we should do next based on that discussion.

现实情况是，我并不总是离它很远，但我希望能够提出一个假设，然后基于该假设进行讨论，然后根据该讨论找出我们下一步应该做什么的正确结果。

Lenny Rachitsky: Speaking of strategy, you shared with me that at one point in your career you got this feedback that you just weren't strategic enough and that that comment led you to research and dig into what does it mean to be strategic, and also just to level up your strategic mindset and the way you think about strategy.

Lenny Rachitsky：说到战略，您与我分享说，在您职业生涯的某个时刻，您得到了这样的反馈，即您不够战略性，并且该评论引导您研究并深入了解战略性意味着什么，并且只是为了提升您的战略思维方式和思考战略的方式。

What did you end up with recognizing as being strategic?

您最终认为什么是战略性的？

What is that in your work and in your research?

您的工作和研究中有哪些内容？

And then how did you actually get better at this work of being strategic?

那么你是如何在这项战略性工作上真正做得更好的呢？

Anneka Gupta: I got this feedback once in a performance review and then I actually got it as well a few years ago when I was interviewing for head of product roles and I thought I had made a lot of progress on it, but when I reflected back, I think it actually all came back to the same themes.

Anneka Gupta：我在绩效评估中得到过一次反馈，几年前我面试产品主管时也得到过这种反馈，我认为我在这方面取得了很大进步，但当我回想起来时，我认为实际上都回到了相同的主题。

Which was I think when people say "I want someone that's strategic," what they're really saying is "I want someone that can come up with and articulate a compelling and simple why behind the decisions and the direction of the company and product." So that's number one.

我认为，当人们说“我想要一个有战略眼光的人”时，他们真正想说的是“我想要一个能够提出并阐明公司和产品的决策和方向背后令人信服且简单的原因的人。”所以这是第一。

The second piece is, "I want someone that's going to champion and be a change agent to do things that may be hard but actually best for the long-term interest of the product or company, even though those things are not going to be easy to execute on."

第二部分是，“我希望有人能够支持并成为变革推动者，去做那些可能很困难但实际上最有利于产品或公司的长期利益的事情，尽管这些事情并不容易执行。”

Anneka Gupta: And I think if you have one without the other, ultimately people are not going to see you as strategic.

Anneka Gupta：我认为，如果两者缺一不可，最终人们不会认为你具有战略意义。

If you're really good at articulating the why, but you're only bringing small ideas to the table, then that's not strategic.

如果你真的很擅长阐明原因，但只是提出一些小想法，那么这就不是战略性的。

If you're championing big ideas but you can't articulate the why behind them in a compelling and simple way, then you're not going to be seen as strategic either.

如果你拥护伟大的想法，但无法以令人信服且简单的方式阐明其背后的原因，那么你也不会被视为具有战略眼光。

So, that's the formula that I've come up with.

这就是我想出的公式。

This is what it means.

这就是它的意思。

And so I focused a lot on how do I make sure I do both of these things?

所以我非常关注如何确保我做这两件事？

How do I champion a few things that a really big ideas that are going to help change the direction of the company, and then how do I articulate that in a simple and compelling why?

我如何支持一些真正伟大的想法，将有助于改变公司的方向，然后我如何用一个简单而令人信服的原因来阐明这一点？

Lenny Rachitsky: That's such a cool simple way of thinking about this.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一种非常酷、简单的思考方式。

Is there an example from your work that might illustrate some of this from a project you worked on or a product you built?

您的工作中是否有一个示例可以说明您从事的项目或您构建的产品中的一些内容？

Anneka Gupta: I can take some recent examples.

Anneka Gupta：我可以举一些最近的例子。

We've been doing a lot of strategic planning for where do we want to be as a company over the next three years, and Rubrik operates in the cybersecurity space.

我们一直在为公司未来三年的发展方向做大量战略规划，而 Rubrik 的业务领域是网络安全领域。

It's a very fast moving landscape.

这是一个非常快速移动的景观。

There's a lot of places that we could go as a business, and one of the ways that I've exhibited this, and this is what I recommend to other people too, is sometimes it's really hard to come up with the compelling and simple why behind something and sometimes it's also really hard to come up with a really big idea out of thin air.

作为一家企业，我们可以去很多地方，我展示这一点的方式之一，这也是我向其他人推荐的，有时真的很难想出某件事背后令人信服且简单的原因，有时也很难凭空想出一个真正伟大的想法。

So these things can be very challenging.

所以这些事情可能非常具有挑战性。

The first step that I found as very useful, and I use this tactic every single day in meetings, is just summarization.

我发现非常有用的第一步就是总结，我每天都在会议中使用这种策略。

So, bringing people together, lots of different voices into a room and hearing what they have to say and at various times in the conversation summarizing what people are saying and summarizing what that means in terms of the direction that we could go in.

因此，将人们聚集在一起，将许多不同的声音聚集到一个房间里，听听他们要说什么，并在对话的不同时间总结人们所说的话，并总结这对我们可以前进的方向意味着什么。

Anneka Gupta: And then that's a checkpoint of saying, "Okay, this is how I've synthesized what is happening.

Anneka Gupta：然后这是一个检查点，“好吧，这就是我综合正在发生的事情的方式。

Is this correct or do we actually need to do another turn because we don't all agree with where we're landing here?" That summarization, even though I may not be adding a new idea into that, I found people actually view that as strategy.

这是正确的还是我们实际上需要再转一次，因为我们并不都同意我们在这里着陆的地方？”尽管我可能没有在其中添加新的想法，但我发现人们实际上将其视为策略。

They view the effective summarization as strategy.

他们将有效的总结视为策略。

So I think that's one element.

所以我认为这是一个因素。

Then what I've also found is that when I summarize what other people are saying and especially multiple different stakeholders, then I can think about offline and not in the context of right in the meeting, sometimes in the meeting too I guess, is how do I make this idea one click better?

然后我还发现，当我总结其他人的言论，尤其是多个不同的利益相关者的言论时，我可以在线下思考，而不是在会议中，有时我想在会议中，我想如何让这个想法变得更好？

It's not about how do you do something radically, radically different, but taking ideas and then making it slightly better, slightly better.

这不是关于你如何做一些完全不同的事情，而是吸收想法，然后让它变得更好、更好。

Anneka Gupta: When you think about that, especially from an outside-in perspective of what are the customer problems we're trying to solve and how are we going to take this to market, and don't worry about how difficult the technical implementation is going to be, then you start to get to these big ideas that can really be the change agent ideas.

Anneka Gupta：当你思考这个问题时，尤其是从外向内的角度思考我们正在尝试解决的客户问题是什么以及我们将如何将其推向市场，并且不用担心技术实施会有多困难，那么你就会开始想到这些真正可以成为变革推动者想法的伟大想法。

So, I've started doing this more and more and I think especially in the past three to six months, and I'm seeing a material difference in terms of the number of big ideas that we're going and pursuing overall as a company and also the quality of the strategic thinking that I can bring to the table, and it's been really exciting and rewarding.

所以，我开始越来越多地这样做，我认为特别是在过去的三到六个月里，我看到了我们作为一家公司正在整体上追求的伟大想法的数量以及我可以提出的战略思维的质量方面的实质性差异，这真的令人兴奋和有益。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's so much you're sharing that resonates with other podcast episodes.

Lenny Rachitsky：您分享的内容与其他播客剧集产生了共鸣。

For example, this idea of just going one click better.

例如，只需点击一下就可以更好的想法。

I had Roger Martin on the podcast where this book, Playing to Win, which is one of the more popular strategy books, and he has this concept of betterment as a way to work on strategy.

我在播客中邀请了罗杰·马丁（Roger Martin），其中有一本名为《为胜利而战》（Playing to Win）的书，这是一本更受欢迎的策略书籍，他将改进的概念作为制定策略的一种方式。

A lot of people go huge with a big strategy and vision, and his advice is just find the thing that is the biggest constraint and bottleneck to your business right now and just make it better and that's your next step.

很多人都怀揣着宏伟的战略和愿景，他的建议是找到目前对你的业务最大的限制和瓶颈，然后让它变得更好，这就是你的下一步。

And then just keep doing that and you'll end up in a much better place over time, even though it feels like you're just doing one little thing.

然后继续这样做，随着时间的推移，你最终会到达一个更好的地方，尽管感觉你只是做了一件小事。

And so I love this idea of just picking one thing and making it one click better.

所以我喜欢这个想法：只选择一件东西，然后点击一下让它变得更好。

There's going to be an episode that comes out right before this with Alex Komoroske, and he has this concept of the adjacent possible and it's just find the next thing that's possible and focus on that versus some big lofty thing.

在此之前，亚历克斯·科莫罗斯克（Alex Komoroske）将会有一集，他有相邻可能性的概念，只是找到下一个可能的事情，并专注于它，而不是一些崇高的事情。

So I'm just sharing a bunch of stuff, that's not a question.

所以我只是分享一堆东西，这不是问题。

Anneka Gupta: That totally resonates though.

Anneka Gupta：不过这完全引起了共鸣。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，好的。

Okay, great.

好的，太好了。

And then the summarization idea, I love it.

然后是总结的想法，我喜欢它。

So tactical, basically any PM can do this just in a meeting just like, "Okay, let me just summarize to make sure everyone's on the same page." Funny enough, this is the feedback I get on this podcast and I haven't been doing this in our conversation yet, but I often try to summarize the person's point and everyone's like, "Oh, I love that you do that.

所以战术上，基本上任何 PM 都可以在会议中做到这一点，就像，“好吧，让我总结一下，以确保每个人都达成共识。”有趣的是，这是我在这个播客上得到的反馈，我还没有在我们的谈话中这样做，但我经常尝试总结这个人的观点，每个人都会说，“哦，我喜欢你这样做。

That's so helpful." So I totally see the power of that in my experience.

这很有帮助。”所以我从我的经验中完全看到了它的力量。

Anneka Gupta: It also makes people feel heard and especially when you have a lot of diverse voices in the room that may not agree on all things but have valid viewpoints, it helps bring people together and ultimately the diverse perspectives are going to yield better insights and better decisions for the organizations.

Anneka Gupta：这也让人们感到被倾听，特别是当房间里有很多不同的声音，他们可能并不同意所有事情，但都有有效的观点时，它有助于将人们聚集在一起，最终不同的观点将为组织带来更好的见解和更好的决策。

You want that, but some people shy away from that because it's scary because you have to deal with a lot of conflict and it's a way to kind of move beyond the conflict and get to the heart of an issue, which in my mind, that's what the PM job is all about is getting to the very, very heart of a problem.

你想要这样，但有些人回避这一点，因为这很可怕，因为你必须处理很多冲突，这是一种超越冲突并触及问题核心的方法，在我看来，这就是 PM 工作的全部内容，就是触及问题的核心。

Lenny Rachitsky: If someone wants to work on this skill of summarizing as kind of a tactic, can you give just an example of how you would do that?

Lenny Rachitsky：如果有人想把这种总结技能作为一种策略来练习，你能举个例子说明你会如何做到这一点吗？

Is there like a phrase to use?

有类似的短语可以用吗？

Is there words or an example you could give of just like here's how it would look in a meeting?

您是否可以举出一些文字或例子，就像会议中的情况一样？

Anneka Gupta: Yeah.

安妮卡·古普塔：是的。

So, often if there's a lot of discussion going on, sometimes it can be a little hard to insert yourself.

因此，通常如果有很多讨论正在进行，有时可能会有点难以介入。

I still may insert myself and say, "Hey, let me pause here for a second and try to capture what has been said." This is what I've heard.

我仍然可以插入自己并说：“嘿，让我在这里暂停一下，尝试捕捉所讲内容。”这是我所听到的。

I've heard that our customers are having these kinds of challenges.

我听说我们的客户面临着此类挑战。

We feel like this is the way that we want to solve these challenges.

我们觉得这就是我们想要解决这些挑战的方式。

We have a right to win in this way and therefore we're going to take this action.

我们有权以这种方式获胜，因此我们将采取这一行动。

Anneka Gupta: Is everyone in agreement with that or is there some dissent about whether that's an accurate portrayal of where we've landed with this conversation?

Anneka Gupta：每个人都同意这一点吗？对于这是否准确地描述了我们这次对话的结果，是否存在一些异议？

That's the way I'll frame it up and again, ending it on a question so that you're not coming in and just being like, "Hey, this is where we're at." But then inviting people to discuss and say "Yes," or "No, I agree with 90% of that or 10% off." And that helps move the conversation forward because sometimes you'll get stuck in these circular discussions that aren't moving forward and you need to figure out a way to move it forward.

这就是我会一遍又一遍地构建它的方式，以一个问题结束它，这样你就不会进来只是说，“嘿，这就是我们现在所处的位置。”但随后邀请人们讨论并说“是”或“不，我同意 90% 的观点或 10% 的折扣”。这有助于推动对话向前发展，因为有时你会陷入这些没有进展的循环讨论中，你需要找到一种方法来推动对话。

Lenny Rachitsky: And then you experience is just doing that makes you look more strategic and gives people the impression you're thinking strategically?

Lenny Rachitsky：那么你的经历就是让你看起来更具战略性，并给人们留下你正在战略性思考的印象？

Anneka Gupta: The other way you can do it is if you're in a room with someone and you have a whiteboard is actually summarize on the whiteboard while people are talking and then show your summarized framework or whatever on that.

Anneka Gupta：另一种方法是，如果你和某人在一个房间里，并且有一个白板，实际上是在人们说话时在白板上进行总结，然后显示你的总结框架或其他内容。

So that's kind of a good way to do it too.

所以这也是一个很好的方法。

If you're having a hard time interrupting the flow of discussion or you don't feel as comfortable thinking on your feet and interrupting and then framing your point of view, you can do that.

如果你很难打断讨论的进行，或者你觉得独立思考、打断然后阐述你的观点不太舒服，你可以这样做。

In Zoom you can also use a chat.

在 Zoom 中，您还可以使用聊天功能。

I've done that very effectively and said, "I'm not going to interrupt the flow conversation.

我非常有效地做到了这一点，并说道：“我不会打断流畅的对话。

I'm just going to summarize in Zoom chat this is what I've heard, and this is what I think we're saying in this conversation." And then sometimes that'll get invited back into the broader conversation that's happening live on the Zoom itself.

我只是要在 Zoom 聊天中总结一下，这就是我所听到的，我认为这就是我们在这次对话中所说的。”有时，这会被邀请回到 Zoom 上现场进行的更广泛的对话中。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a much lower stakes way of doing it, and I'm picturing all the PMs listening to this, they're going to start doing this and there's going to be all these summaries now in Zoom chats and everyone will be like, "Oh my God, why is everyone sharing?"

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一种风险低得多的方式，我想象所有的产品经理都在听这个，他们将开始这样做，现在 Zoom 聊天中将会出现所有这些摘要，每个人都会说，“天哪，为什么每个人都在分享？”

Anneka Gupta: And then Zoom AI will start just doing it all for you.

Anneka Gupta：然后 Zoom AI 将开始为您做这一切。

Then we'll have to think again.

那我们就得再想一想了。

Lenny Rachitsky: And then PMs are over and AI replaced us all.

Lenny Rachitsky：然后产品经理就结束了，人工智能取代了我们所有人。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so then just to close the loop on becoming more strategic, your advice is when someone's like, "Hey, you're not strategic enough.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，为了让自己变得更具战略性，你的建议是，当有人说：“嘿，你的战略性不够。

You need to be more strategic." Your insights is the two things to work on is one, be clear on the whys behind the ideas that you're working on and be very crystal clear.

你需要更具战略性。”你的见解是需要做的两件事之一，明确你正在研究的想法背后的原因，并且非常清晰。

People may not be understanding why you're working on the things you want to work on, the things you're pitching.

人们可能不理解你为什么要做你想做的事情、你正在推销的事情。

And then two is actually be the person that makes these things happen, not just put a doc out there.

然后两个人实际上是让这些事情发生的人，而不仅仅是放一个文档。

If you're not actually achieving them, people are going to think you're not strategic.

如果你没有真正实现这些目标，人们就会认为你没有战略眼光。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

I want to talk about decision-making.

我想谈谈决策。

You have a really interesting perspective on how to become a better decision-maker in relation to being kind of a historian, which I love this concept.

对于如何成为一名更好的决策者以及成为一名历史学家，你有一个非常有趣的观点，我喜欢这个概念。

Talk about that insight.

谈谈这个见解。

Anneka Gupta: Yeah, so I was at my previous company for 11 years, so I kind of ended up becoming the historian.

Anneka Gupta：是的，我在之前的公司工作了 11 年，所以我最终成为了历史学家。

And when I joined Rubrik about three years ago, I came into an organization that had a lot of history that I just didn't know about.

大约三年前，当我加入 Rubrik 时，我进入了一个拥有很多我不了解的历史的组织。

So one of the things that I decided to do when I joined the company was to really understand what happened in the past.

因此，当我加入公司时，我决定做的一件事就是真正了解过去发生的事情。

What were the products that we launched that weren't successful?

我们推出的哪些产品没有成功？

Why weren't they successful?

为什么他们没有成功？

What was the perspective on the history of how we've decided to develop the things that we did and why?

对于我们如何决定开发我们所做的事情的历史有什么看法？为什么？

What was the perception of different people in the organization?

组织中不同人员的看法是什么？

I tried to construct this past knowledge of what had happened and what were the decisions that were made and why were those decisions made, whether they were good or bad it didn't matter, so that I could better understand how to make decisions going forward and to learn from the mistakes that I didn't personally live through.

我试图构建过去的知识，了解发生了什么、做出了什么决定以及为什么做出这些决定，无论它们是好是坏都没关系，这样我就可以更好地理解如何做出未来的决定，并从我个人没有经历过的错误中吸取教训。

Anneka Gupta: I think that's the part that's really important about being a historian.

Anneka Gupta：我认为这是作为一名历史学家真正重要的部分。

You can always be a historian.

你永远可以成为一名历史学家。

It doesn't have to be just when you join a company, but even today I'll hear about projects from many years ago that people will bring up and I'll be like, "Tell me about this project.

不一定只是当你加入一家公司时，但即使在今天，我也会听到人们提起多年前的项目，我会说，“告诉我这个项目。

What happened with it?

它发生了什么？

How did we decide to do this?" And just really learn and be curious about it because that gives me more context into, well, what is it that we did poorly and how can we do that better?

我们是如何决定这样做的？”真正地学习并对它感到好奇，因为这给了我更多的背景知识，让我了解我们在哪些方面做得不好以及我们如何才能做得更好？

And also, what is the baggage that people have around trying to do something similar again?

而且，人们试图再次做类似事情的包袱是什么？

Because people always come with their baggage of, oh, this hasn't worked before, so why is it going to work now?

因为人们总是带着这样的包袱：哦，这以前行不通，那为什么现在行得通呢？

And as a product leader, you're obviously putting in place a lot of thoughts and ideas around this is what I want to go achieve and these are the initiatives.

作为产品领导者，你显然围绕这就是我想要实现的目标提出了很多想法和想法，这些就是举措。

And some people are going to come and say, "Well, we've tried that before." Especially you've been at an organization that's been around for a while.

有些人会过来说：“好吧，我们以前已经尝试过。”尤其是你在一个已经存在了一段时间的组织中。

Lenny Rachitsky: I've been that guy.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我就是那个人。

We've done this so many times.

我们已经做过很多次了。

It didn't work.

它不起作用。

Why are we thinking about this again?

为什么我们又开始思考这个问题了？

Okay, so the advice is if you're new to a company especially, just study the past decisions that were made and share them out as a part of that and then as a side effect, it'll help you make better decisions because you'll have this history about what the company has done.

好的，所以建议是，如果你是一家公司的新手，尤其是，只需研究过去做出的决策并将其作为其中的一部分分享出来，然后作为副作用，它将帮助你做出更好的决策，因为你将了解该公司所做的事情的历史。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

Along the same lines of decision-making, I asked your former colleague Rachel Wolan what to ask you, and she said that your parting advice when she left to join a different company was it's not about making the right decision, it's about making the decision.

沿着同样的决策思路，我问你的前同事雷切尔·沃兰（Rachel Wolan）该问你什么，她说，当她离开并加入另一家公司时，你的临别建议是，这不是关于做出正确的决定，而是关于做出决定。

That's like the things she remembered about you most, that parting advice.

这就像她对你印象最深刻的事情，临别建议。

Talk about why that is so important and your insight there.

谈谈为什么这如此重要以及你的见解。

Anneka Gupta: Very easy to get into analysis paralysis before making a decision and say, "Well, if I just had this one more data point, if I just knew this, then I could make a decision." But the reality is that you were always operating off of imprecise information as a product leader.

Anneka Gupta：在做出决定之前很容易陷入分析瘫痪，并说：“好吧，如果我再多一个数据点，如果我知道这一点，那么我就可以做出决定。”但现实是，作为产品领导者，你总是根据不精确的信息进行操作。

What I've found is that once you commit to a decision, you actually learn more post committing to that decision about what's going to work and not going to work, and you move out of the hypothetical.

我发现，一旦你做出了决定，你实际上会在做出决定后学到更多关于什么会起作用、什么不会起作用，并且你会摆脱假设。

And as long as your decision is like 70% right, you can iterate on that 20, 30% in either direction, but if you don't commit, then you don't actually get any new information that is high fidelity and high quality.

And as long as your decision is like 70% right, you can iterate on that 20, 30% in either direction, but if you don't commit, then you don't actually get any new information that is high fidelity and high quality.

So, I'm a big believer in making decisions...

所以，我非常相信做出决定......

Anneka Gupta: I know you've had a few guests talk about speed is super important in organizations.

Anneka Gupta：我知道有几位嘉宾谈到速度在组织中非常重要。

Well, I think making decisions quickly and then being able to iterate on them is a form of that.

嗯，我认为快速做出决策然后能够迭代它们就是其中的一种形式。

Just make a decision.

做出决定吧。

Don't make it uninformed, but have a strong hypothesis and then just keep testing whether that hypothesis is accurate or not and you'll shift here and there.

不要使其无知，而是要有一个强有力的假设，然后继续测试该假设是否准确，然后你就会到处改变。

You might build something that you have to throw away 20% of the work on, but that's okay.

您可能会构建一些必须放弃 20% 工作的东西，但这没关系。

It's better than making no decision at all because you won't get any new information if you don't make any decision at all.

这比根本不做决定要好，因为如果你根本不做任何决定，你将不会获得任何新信息。

Lenny Rachitsky: As a PM that might be listening to this, feeling like, "Okay, yeah, that sounds great." But then I make a bad decision and then Anneka is going to be like, "You messed up here.

Lenny Rachitsky：作为一名产品经理，可能会听到这个，感觉是，“好吧，是的，这听起来很棒。”但后来我做出了一个错误的决定，安妮卡就会说：“你把事情搞砸了。

You've shipped the wrong thing here.

你在这里运送了错误的东西。

It didn't work." How do you create a culture where people don't feel that and aren't as afraid of making bad decisions and making decisions with 70% of the information?

没用。” How do you create a culture where people don't feel that and aren't as afraid of making bad decisions and making decisions with 70% of the information?

Anneka Gupta: I think part of it comes down to making sure there's a strong hypothesis that everyone understands when you're making the decision.

Anneka Gupta：我认为部分归结为确保在做出决定时有一个每个人都能理解的强有力的假设。

Or it might not just be one hypothesis, it might be a series of hypotheses and assumptions that we're making that are informing the decision.

或者它可能不仅仅是一个假设，它可能是我们正在做出的一系列假设和假设，这些假设和假设为决策提供了信息。

So it might be a hypothesis that this segment of customers is going to be willing to pay for this product because it's solving an urgent and important enough need for them that they're going to go do it and this is the evidence we have to find it, but this is also the stuff we don't know.

So it might be a hypothesis that this segment of customers is going to be willing to pay for this product because it's solving an urgent and important enough need for them that they're going to go do it and this is the evidence we have to find it, but this is also the stuff we don't know.

Anneka Gupta: Then along the way, we learn whether that hypothesis is true or not.

Anneka Gupta：然后一路上，我们知道这个假设是否正确。

And so at the end of the day, if something didn't work out, we can go back to the original hypothesis and say, "Well, this is what we learned in this process that our hypothesis was actually not true, and we learned all of this after the fact." I think the way to make a culture of risk taking and people willing to make these bets and go out on a limb is to reward the learning versus the outcome.

And so at the end of the day, if something didn't work out, we can go back to the original hypothesis and say, "Well, this is what we learned in this process that our hypothesis was actually not true, and we learned all of this after the fact." I think the way to make a culture of risk taking and people willing to make these bets and go out on a limb is to reward the learning versus the outcome.

That's what I try to focus on is if we're constantly learning, it is okay if we make bad decisions, but we learn from them and we get better for next time.

That's what I try to focus on is if we're constantly learning, it is okay if we make bad decisions, but we learn from them and we get better for next time.

Even in making this bad decision, we learn something about our customers or our business that we otherwise wouldn't have learned that we can use in another context.

Even in making this bad decision, we learn something about our customers or our business that we otherwise wouldn't have learned that we can use in another context.

Lenny Rachitsky: First of all, I love that this comes back to your strategic lesson of just if you have a strong why behind something, that's incredibly powerful and people will be confident that you're thinking strategically.

Lenny Rachitsky: First of all, I love that this comes back to your strategic lesson of just if you have a strong why behind something, that's incredibly powerful and people will be confident that you're thinking strategically.

Two, I was just at a talk with Zuck.

第二，我刚刚和扎克谈话。

He's being interviewed at the Chase Center, the Acquired Podcast at this whole event, and his main thing that he talked about that he values most in the culture of Facebook is learning faster than anyone else.

He's being interviewed at the Chase Center, the Acquired Podcast at this whole event, and his main thing that he talked about that he values most in the culture of Facebook is learning faster than anyone else.

Shipping stuff that isn't perfect, but just so that you can get one more turn and learn something faster than someone else.

运送不完美的东西，但只是为了让你可以多轮一次，比其他人更快地学习一些东西。

So, that super resonates that's Facebook's culture.

所以，这与 Facebook 的文化产生了超级共鸣。

Is there an example of something you worked on where you did that, where you kind of ship something that you weren't fully confident in and you learn faster?

Is there an example of something you worked on where you did that, where you kind of ship something that you weren't fully confident in and you learn faster?

Anneka Gupta: Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot because anytime you're shipping products, there's so many different things that could go right and wrong.

Anneka Gupta: Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot because anytime you're shipping products, there's so many different things that could go right and wrong.

There's a situation where we created a really amazing high value product and we decided not to monetize it, and then we realized after the fact, "Wait, we should have monetized it.

There's a situation where we created a really amazing high value product and we decided not to monetize it, and then we realized after the fact, "Wait, we should have monetized it.

So, we're trying to figure out how to package some new capabilities to monetize this thing that we know has a lot of value without taking away what we've already given to existing customers." So that was something we learned along the way that we originally didn't think, oh, we should monetize this, but then we realized that there's actually an avenue to do that after the fact.

So, we're trying to figure out how to package some new capabilities to monetize this thing that we know has a lot of value without taking away what we've already given to existing customers." So that was something we learned along the way that we originally didn't think, oh, we should monetize this, but then we realized that there's actually an avenue to do that after the fact.

There's been other things where we've developed a set of capabilities thinking that it will solve for this new persona's problems, but then we misunderstood how easy it was going to be to go sell to that new persona within our own organization.

There's been other things where we've developed a set of capabilities thinking that it will solve for this new persona's problems, but then we misunderstood how easy it was going to be to go sell to that new persona within our own organization.

I've made that mistake many times actually.

其实我已经犯过很多次这样的错误了。

Anneka Gupta: And so now I think now what I've taken from that is really know how you're going to sell something and who's going to do the selling before you actually go build out the product.

Anneka Gupta：所以现在我想我从中得到的就是在你真正开始生产产品之前真正知道你将如何销售东西以及谁将进行销售。

Because if you don't have that right focus, you may build out the best product and yet it's going to get zero adoption because no one in your organization is ready to sell it.

Because if you don't have that right focus, you may build out the best product and yet it's going to get zero adoption because no one in your organization is ready to sell it.

So there's tons of stuff like that where it's like been okay, yeah, we've learned something from this, and it's not all throwaway, it just means that we've got to do something differently for this product and we need to do something differently for our organization going forward.

所以有很多类似的东西，就像是好的，是的，我们从中学到了一些东西，而且这并不都是一次性的，它只是意味着我们必须为这个产品做一些不同的事情，我们需要为我们的组织未来做一些不同的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Eppo.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Eppo 为您带来。

Eppo is a next-generation A/B testing and feature management platform built by alums of Airbnb and Snowflake for modern growth teams.

Eppo 是由 Airbnb 和 Snowflake 的校友为现代增长团队构建的下一代 A/B 测试和功能管理平台。

Companies like Twitch, Miro, ClickUp and DraftKings rely on Eppo to power their experiments.

Twitch、Miro、ClickUp 和 DraftKings 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。

Experimentation is increasingly essential for driving growth and for understanding the performance of new features.

实验对于推动增长和了解新功能的性能越来越重要。

And Eppo helps you increase experimentation velocity while unlocking rigorous deep analysis in a way that no other commercial tool does.

Eppo 可以帮助您提高实验速度，同时以其他商业工具无法做到的方式解锁严格的深度分析。

Lenny Rachitsky: When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved most was our experimentation platform where I could set up experiments, easily, troubleshoot issues, and analyze performance all on my own.

Lenny Rachitsky：当我在 Airbnb 时，我最喜欢的事情之一就是我们的实验平台，我可以在其中轻松设置实验、解决问题并分析性能，一切都由我自己完成。

Eppo does all that and more with advanced statistical methods that can help you shave weeks off experiment time and accessible UI for diving deeper into performance and out-of-the-box reporting that helps you avoid annoying prolonged analytic cycles.

Eppo 通过先进的统计方法完成了这一切，并提供了更多功能，可以帮助您缩短数周的实验时间，并且可访问的 UI 可以更深入地了解性能，而开箱即用的报告可以帮助您避免烦人的长时间分析周期。

Eppo also makes it easy for you to share experiment insights with your team, sparking new ideas for the A/B testing flywheel.

Eppo 还使您可以轻松地与您的团队分享实验见解，激发 A/B 测试飞轮的新想法。

Eppo powers experimentation across every use case, including product, growth, machine learning, monetization, and email marketing.

Eppo 为每个用例提供实验支持，包括产品、增长、机器学习、货币化和电子邮件营销。

Check out Eppo at geteppo.com/Lenny and 10X your experiment velocity.

请访问 geteppo.com/Lenny 查看 Eppo，将您的实验速度提高 10 倍。

That's geteppo.com/Lenny.

那是 geteppo.com/Lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to come back to something Rachel also shared with me when asked her what questions to ask you.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我想回到雷切尔在被问到要问你什么问题时也与我分享的事情。

By the way, first of all, she spent a lot of time raving about how amazing you are first.

顺便说一句，首先，她花了很多时间赞叹你首先有多棒。

That was the first set of conversations, and then she came up with a bunch of questions to ask you.

这是第一组对话，然后她想出了一堆问题要问你。

And so her other question was about how good you are at navigating very difficult personalities.

所以她的另一个问题是关于你在应对非常困难的性格方面的能力如何。

She showed this quote that she constantly saw you interact with and bring together several leaders who had much higher egos and very disparate points of view who are not informed or thoughtful or as gracious as you were, and she also said you have very low ego.

她引用了这句话，她经常看到你与几位自负得多、观点截然不同的领导者互动并聚集在一起，他们不像你那样见多识广、深思熟虑或和蔼可亲，她还说你的自尊心很低。

She wanted me just to ask you for what you've learned about how to navigate very difficult personalities and help people align when it's not neatly what they want to do.

她想让我问你，你学到了什么，如何驾驭非常困难的性格，并在人们不完全想做的事情时帮助他们协调一致。

Anneka Gupta: I try to embody the mindset of feeling like and believing that I can work with anyone.

Anneka Gupta：我试图表现出一种感觉并相信我可以与任何人合作的心态。

I think what I do when I hit a difficult personality and difficult personalities come in all shapes and sizes and forms is I really try to understand what drives that person.

我认为，当我遇到一个困难的性格时，我所做的就是努力去理解是什么驱使着这个人。

What is it that they really care about?

他们真正关心的是什么？

Hopefully they care about something deeply about the company and making the company successful.

希望他们深切关心公司的某些事情并使公司取得成功。

Sometimes they care about their own personal career, how they're showing up, what people view of them.

有时他们关心自己的个人事业、自己的表现以及人们对他们的看法。

That's fine.

没关系。

I just need to understand what it is that they really care about, and then if I need something from them, what is it that I can do to motivate them to find what I need from them important?

我只需要了解他们真正关心的是什么，然后如果我需要他们提供什么，我可以做些什么来激励他们发现我需要他们提供的东西很重要？

And trying to make that match of they have this desire kind of like building a product, they have this desire and how am I going to get them to care about the thing that I want to care about?

试图让他们有这种愿望，就像构建一个产品一样，他们有这种愿望，我该如何让他们关心我想关心的事情？

Anneka Gupta: The other thing I do is instead of feeling like anger or frustration with the person and instead trying to shift that to a mindset of feeling gratitude and a positive emotion about them is I look at them and I ask myself what can I learn?

Anneka Gupta：我做的另一件事是不要对这个人感到愤怒或沮丧，而是尝试将其转变为对他们感到感激和积极情绪的心态，我看着他们，问自己我能学到什么？

Maybe I don't want to adopt their personality or operate the way that they are operating, but everyone has something that they can teach you, whether it's their communication style or the way they're able to marshal people together, the way they come up with visionary ideas, whatever it may be, trying to study that person and be curious about them, learn from them and then thank them for that and feel the generosity genuinely about what I got from this situation.

也许我不想采用他们的个性或按照他们的方式行事，但每个人都有一些可以教给你的东西，无论是他们的沟通方式还是他们将人们聚集在一起的方式，他们提出有远见的想法的方式，无论是什么，尝试研究那个人并对他们感到好奇，向他们学习，然后为此感谢他们，并真正感受到我从这种情况中得到的慷慨。

It's easier to do sometimes than others, but I think it comes back to that abundant mindset.

有时比其他人更容易做到，但我认为这又回到了丰富的心态。

If you can approach it with an abundant mindset, then you can really consciously do this and when you actually learn something, you will feel the gratitude when you recognize that you are able to get something from that.

如果你能以丰富的心态去对待它，那么你就能真正有意识地做到这一点，当你真正学到一些东西时，当你认识到你能够从中得到一些东西时，你会感到感激。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that this connects with your other original piece of advice of just turning something into this is going to be fun.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这与你的另一条原创建议相联系，即把某些东西变成这样会很有趣。

Let's make this fun.

让我们把这件事变得有趣吧。

And in this case it's like make it great.

在这种情况下，就像让它变得伟大一样。

What can I learn from this person even though they're really annoying me and it's frustrating and don't want anything done?

即使他们真的让我烦恼并且令人沮丧并且不想做任何事情，我可以从这个人身上学到什么？

Then your other point of understanding what they want and kind of using that as a way to pull them in your direction, how do you figure out what they want?

然后，你了解他们想要什么并以此作为将他们拉向你的方向的一种方式，你如何弄清楚他们想要什么？

Do you have any tricks for just like, "Here's how I learn what this person's motivations are and goals are"?

对于“我如何了解这个人的动机和目标”之类的问题，您有什么技巧吗？

Anneka Gupta: Talk to other people that have worked with them before and have done so successfully.

Anneka Gupta：与之前与他们合作过并取得成功的其他人交谈。

So that might be people that work for them because if you work for a person like that, you have to figure out and or you're successful working for that person, you probably understand what makes them tick.

所以这可能是为他们工作的人，因为如果你为这样的人工作，你必须弄清楚，或者你成功地为那个人工作，你可能会明白是什么让他们这么做。

So that's one, or talk to people that are peers, anything like that to try to understand and build this view of this person that helps me empathize with them and also helps me understand what they may be wanting to get out of a situation and why.

这就是其中之一，或者与同事交谈，诸如此类，试图理解并建立对这个人的看法，这有助于我同情他们，也帮助我了解他们可能想摆脱某种情况以及为什么。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

Yeah, they don't have to be involved in that.

是的，他们不必参与其中。

You just ask other people, "What is this person's motivations?" And then the idea is connect what they want with the thing you're trying to achieve.

你只要问别人：“这个人的动机是什么？”然后这个想法就是将他们想要的东西与你想要实现的东西联系起来。

Beautiful.

美丽的。

I really love this idea of when you're frustrated by someone just reframing it to like, "I'm grateful I'm going to learn something from this person in our interaction, even though they're making life hard for me." I really love that.

我真的很喜欢这个想法，当你对某人感到沮丧时，你会重新定义它，“我很感激我能在我们的互动中从这个人身上学到一些东西，即使他们让我的生活变得艰难。”我真的很喜欢那个。

Another skill I hear you're really strong at, and this comes from another one of your colleagues, Hema Mohan shared that you're world-class at giving feedback, giving hard feedback, and receiving hard feedback.

我听说你非常擅长另一项技能，这来自你的另一位同事 Hema Mohan 分享说，你在提供反馈、提供严格反馈和接受严格反馈方面是世界一流的。

And so I want to just ask you, what have you learned about how to do this?

所以我想问你，关于如何做到这一点，你学到了什么？

It's very hard to give hard feedback.

给出严格的反馈是非常困难的。

That's why it's called hard feedback.

这就是为什么它被称为硬反馈。

So from either direction, what have you learned about receiving hard feedback or giving hard feedback where someone actually hears Zoom doesn't get defensive?

因此，从任一方向来看，当有人真正听到 Zoom 没有采取防御措施时，您从接收严厉反馈或提供严厉反馈中学到了什么？

Anneka Gupta: The answer is so much, I've learned so much from it.

Anneka Gupta：答案太多了，我从中学到了很多东西。

So maybe I'll start with receiving feedback.

所以也许我会从接收反馈开始。

So, on the receiving feedback side, I think it's very natural to feel upset, defensive, all the negative emotions when you first see a piece of negative feedback, whether it's you're reading it in a employee survey or you're receiving it in a one-on-one from a direct report or from a manager or from a peer.

因此，在接收反馈方面，我认为当你第一次看到一条负面反馈时，感到不安、防御和所有负面情绪是很自然的，无论是你在员工调查中阅读它，还是你从直接下属、经理或同事那里一对一地接收它。

And I try to let myself just feel the things that I'm going to feel.

我试着让自己去感受我将要感受到的东西。

Sometimes that's an emotional feeling, sometimes that means I want to step out of the room or it depends on who I'm talking to, but let myself feel the things that I'm going to feel.

有时这是一种情绪化的感觉，有时这意味着我想走出房间，或者这取决于我在和谁说话，但让自己感受我将要感受的东西。

Then once that's passed, whether that's a few hours or a few days, don't react.

一旦过去了，无论是几个小时还是几天，都不要做出反应。

Don't try to say, "Oh, I don't believe this." Listen.

不要试图说：“哦，我不相信这个。”听。

And then ask myself, okay, well where is this feedback coming from?

然后问自己，好吧，这个反馈从哪里来？

Why am I getting this feedback?

为什么我会收到此反馈？

Anneka Gupta: And try to be super curious about it.

Anneka Gupta：并尝试对此保持超级好奇。

And that might be going back to the person that gave me the feedback and maybe asking someone that's a peer somewhere in the organization that might have more context and flavor to what the feedback really is, just trying to learn.

这可能会回到给我反馈的人，也许会询问组织中某个地方的同事，他们可能对反馈的真实情况有更多的背景和风格，只是想学习。

Then I can decide, do I think this is valid or not?

然后我可以决定，我认为这是否有效？

Is this something I should do something about or not?

这是我应该做的事情还是不应该做的事情？

Actually, all feedback I think is valid.

事实上，我认为所有的反馈都是有效的。

People's feelings are valid, but it doesn't mean that you need to do something about all of those things.

人们的感受是有道理的，但这并不意味着你需要对所有这些事情采取行动。

Going through that process and letting myself ride the emotional wave and not judging myself for that, but then not reacting and letting myself then figure out and come back curious.

经历这个过程，让自己驾驭情绪波动，不要因此评判自己，但不要做出反应，让自己弄清楚并好奇地回来。

I think when you come back curious, people then want to give you more feedback because they know that you're listening and that you're hearing what they say.

我认为当你回来时感到好奇，人们就会想给你更多反馈，因为他们知道你在听并且你正在听到他们所说的。

Lenny Rachitsky: So the advice is feel it, don't block it off and be like, "No, no, no, no, no, this isn't real." So fully let your body go through the roller coaster of feeling the negative feedback.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以建议是感受它，不要阻止它，然后说：“不，不，不，不，不，这不是真的。”所以充分让你的身体经历负面反馈的过山车。

Sometimes the feedback is just like, "No, this isn't actually a thing." Do you have any just heuristic of like I should actually pay attention to this deeply or just like let me wait for more data points?

有时反馈就像是，“不，这实际上不是一件事。”您是否有任何启发，比如我实际上应该深入关注这一点，或者只是让我等待更多数据点？

Anneka Gupta: Yeah, I think in product you receive feedback all the time for your organization or for yourself, and you can't make everyone happy.

Anneka Gupta：是的，我认为在产品中，你总是会收到组织或你自己的反馈，你不可能让每个人都满意。

Everyone wants a different thing from product.

每个人都想要与产品不同的东西。

So I think this comes up quite often where there's a lot of feedback for the organization or for you as a leader and you have to decide what to focus on and what not to focus on.

因此，我认为这种情况经常出现，因为组织或作为领导者的你有很多反馈，你必须决定关注什么和不关注什么。

I always try to anchor on, "Well, what is best for the company and what does the company need for me and for my team at this point in time?" There's stuff that is a must-have on that list, and there's stuff that's nice to have.

我总是尝试着想：“那么，什么对公司来说是最好的，公司目前对我和我的团队需要什么？”清单上有些东西是必须拥有的，有些东西是很高兴拥有的。

Sometimes there's just too many must-haves to go deal with the nice-to-haves and you have to just be like, well, I know this is a problem, or I know we could be 10% better in this, but it actually doesn't matter as much as fixing these things that are really, really important and are really what's going to help my organization deliver what it needs to for the company and for the business overall.

有时候，有太多必需品需要处理那些“锦上添花”的事情，你必须说，好吧，我知道这是一个问题，或者我知道我们在这方面可以做得更好 10%，但实际上这并不重要，重要的是修复这些非常非常重要的事情，这些事情确实能够帮助我的组织交付公司和整个业务所需的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: In terms of receiving hard feedback, so you shared one example or I shared an example where someone said you weren't strategic enough.

Lenny Rachitsky：就接收硬性反馈而言，你分享了一个例子，或者我分享了一个有人说你战略不够的例子。

Is there another example of receiving hard feedback that you got that you're like, "Ugh, that sucks"?

还有另一个例子，你收到的反馈是“呃，这太糟糕了”？

Either earlier in your career or more recently, anything else come to mind?

无论是在您职业生涯的早期还是最近，您还想到过什么吗？

Anneka Gupta: I mean all the time.

Anneka Gupta：我的意思是一直。

So there's always hard stuff.

所以总是有困难的事情。

Well, people will give feedback of, "Oh, I feel like we're not moving fast enough on our roadmap and priorities.

嗯，人们会给出这样的反馈：“哦，我觉得我们在路线图和优先事项上的进展不够快。

We need to be doing more.

我们需要做得更多。

Why aren't we moving fast?" Or-

我们为什么不快点行动呢？”或者-

Anneka Gupta: Never heard that one before, right?

Anneka Gupta：以前从没听说过这个，对吧？

Or disparaging the direction that we're taking a certain product because they don't agree with it because a competitor is doing something else, but we've decided for our reasons that we're not going to go follow that path.

或者贬低我们采用某种产品的方向，因为他们不同意它，因为竞争对手正在做其他事情，但我们出于我们的原因决定我们不会走这条路。

There's always something that people have negative feedback about and sometimes I'm like, "Okay, this is an eye roll." I understand where they're coming from.

人们总是会对某些事情产生负面反馈，有时我会说，“好吧，这就是翻白眼。”我明白他们从哪里来。

I understand why they're giving me this feedback, but I also don't agree that we should change directions because of it.

我理解他们为什么给我这个反馈，但我也不同意我们应该因此而改变方向。

I don't know, some of the things cut deeper than others, but I think people are making personal statements about my team or they're feeling like, "Hey, the product team isn't listening to feedback, or the product team has a bad culture.

我不知道，有些事情比其他事情更深入，但我认为人们正在对我的团队做出个人陈述，或者他们的感觉是，“嘿，产品团队没有听取反馈，或者产品团队的文化很糟糕。

Anneka isn't listening." Things like that cut deep and are a lot more...

安妮卡没有在听。”诸如此类的事情很深刻，而且还有很多……

I know like physiologically they make me kind of seize up a little bit, but again, then I try to feel the things I'm going to feel and try to understand why are they saying that.

我知道从生理上来说，它们让我有点卡住，但我再次尝试感受我将要感受到的东西，并尝试理解他们为什么这么说。

Why do they really feel that and what does that mean behaviorally that I have to do differently or my team has to do differently or maybe just two people on my team need to do differently and someone is extrapolating this out to be a much bigger problem than actually is?

为什么他们真的这么认为？这在行为上意味着什么，我必须采取不同的做法，或者我的团队必须采取不同的做法，或者也许我的团队中只有两个人需要采取不同的做法，而有人推断这是一个比实际情况大得多的问题？

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay, and then we were going to shift to what you've learned about giving hard feedback so that someone actually listens and doesn't just put up a shield and like, "It's not real."

好的，然后我们将转向您所学到的关于提供严格反馈的内容，以便有人真正倾听，而不仅仅是屏蔽并说“这不是真的”。

Anneka Gupta: So I think in giving feedback, you can never fully control how someone else is going to respond to that feedback.

Anneka Gupta：所以我认为在提供反馈时，你永远无法完全控制其他人将如何回应该反馈。

All you can control is what you do, your body language and what you say.

你所能控制的就是你所做的事情、你的肢体语言和你所说的内容。

What I have found is that if I can convey, and I will say this very directly to people, I care so much about you and I'm giving you this feedback because I want you to be successful and I want you to be able to reach the pinnacle of what I know you can accomplish.

我发现，如果我能直接向人们表达，我非常关心你，我给你这个反馈是因为我希望你成功，我希望你能够达到我所知道的你能完成的巅峰。

And you do all of that setup and you don't just hope that they understand that, you actually explicitly say that and you show that in your body language, then it makes the other person much more receptive to hearing whatever you have to say.

你做了所有这些设置，你不只是希望他们理解这一点，你实际上明确地说了这一点，并用你的肢体语言表现出来，然后这会让对方更容易接受你所说的一切。

Then I think the other piece is that you've got to be direct.

然后我认为另一件事是你必须直接。

Anneka Gupta: The worst feedback is the kind of passive-aggressive feedback versus saying directly this is what you are doing or this is how you are being perceived in the organization, and here are the three things that you can do to change the way you're being perceived or to change the outcomes of what you're driving or become more strategic or whatever it is that I'm trying to give feedback on.

Anneka Gupta：最糟糕的反馈是那种被动攻击性的反馈，而不是直接说这就是你正在做的事情，或者这就是你在组织中的看法，你可以做以下三件事来改变别人对你的看法，或者改变你正在推动的结果，或者变得更具战略性，或者我试图提供反馈的任何内容。

I do a lot of prep before I give someone a lot of feedback.

在给某人大量反馈之前，我做了很多准备工作。

I really think about how can I frame this in a way that's going to resonate with them that doesn't come across as attacking them, but helps them understand why what they're doing isn't working or is being perceived poorly?

我真的在思考如何才能以一种能够引起他们共鸣的方式来表达这一点，而不是让他们觉得是在攻击他们，而是帮助他们理解为什么他们正在做的事情不起作用或者被认为不好？

And try to give them examples and even examples that I've personally had to go through myself of how I've approached those situations.

尝试给他们举一些例子，甚至是我亲自经历过的例子，说明我是如何处理这些情况的。

And let them ask questions and brainstorm with them, be part of the solution versus saying like, "Here's all this feedback, now you go figure out what to do with it."

让他们提出问题并与他们一起集思广益，成为解决方案的一部分，而不是说“这是所有这些反馈，现在你去弄清楚如何处理它。”

Lenny Rachitsky: This reminds me of Radical Candor.

Lenny Rachitsky：这让我想起了 Radical Candor。

Basically make people feel like you care deeply about them, but be very direct about what they can be doing better.

基本上让人们感觉你非常关心他们，但要非常直接地告诉他们可以在哪些方面做得更好。

Are there phrases or ways that you set up the conversation?

您是否有一些短语或方式可以建立对话？

You mentioned a few of just like, "I want to help you become the best version of who you could be and what you're capable of." Is there any phrases you find helpful that you come back to often of just a way to start the conversation?

您提到了一些类似的内容，“我想帮助您成为最好的人，让您能够成为什么样的人以及能够做什么。”您认为有哪些短语对您很有帮助，您经常会回顾这些短语来开始对话？

Anneka Gupta: Yeah, I think what I started with is like, "I care a lot about you.

Anneka Gupta：是的，我想我一开始就是这样的，“我非常关心你。

You have a lot of potential.

你有很大的潜力。

I can see you doing these kinds of things.

我可以看到你做这些事情。

I can see you getting to where you want to go in your career." Sometimes I even start the conversation by asking them, "What do you want to do?

我可以看到你在职业生涯中达到你想要的目标。”有时我什至会通过问他们“你想做什么？

Where do you want to go in your career?" And that will help me frame up which of these things are important.

你的职业生涯想往哪个方向发展？”这将帮助我确定哪些事情是重要的。

Because honestly, if someone wants to be eventually like a CPO, the feedback I'm going to give to them is very different than if they're like, "Hey, I don't really want to manage people ever.

因为说实话，如果有人最终想成为一名首席产品官，我会给他们的反馈与他们的反馈是非常不同的，“嘿，我真的不想管理员工。

I just want to be the best I see I can ever be." I'm not going to give them the same feedback.

我只想成为我能做到的最好的人。”我不会给他们同样的反馈。

And so having that conversation up front also allows them even before I jump into the feedback to give them their perspective of what they want and then I can tailor the conversation more to what they're looking for.

因此，预先进行对话也可以让他们在我进入反馈之前就向他们提供他们想要的东西的看法，然后我可以根据他们的需求调整对话。

Anneka Gupta: I think that has really helped as well make sure that I focus on the things that are going to really matter.

Anneka Gupta：我认为这确实有帮助，也确保我专注于真正重要的事情。

During the feedback conversations, I also try to frame things as this is how you're being perceived than you are doing X.

在反馈对话中，我还尝试将事情框架化，因为这就是人们对你的看法，而不是你正在做的事情。

Because I think even though it's hard to hear, "Oh, hey, this person doesn't perceive you in the way that you may think," then we can talk about, "Well, what are ways that we can change the perception?" I also think it's important because sometimes people are like if you say, "Hey, I don't think you're X," and then they're like, "Well, yes I am." And if you're saying, "Hey, well this is how other people perceive you including me, but maybe this is not what you are intending," and you actually say that, you're giving them the benefit of the doubt of actually how they're trying to show up is different than how people are perceiving them.

因为我认为即使很难听到，“哦，嘿，这个人并不像你想象的那样看待你”，那么我们可以讨论，“那么，我们可以通过什么方法来改变这种看法呢？”我也认为这很重要，因为有时人们会说，“嘿，我不认为你是 X”，然后他们会说，“嗯，是的，我是。”如果你说，“嘿，这就是包括我在内的其他人对你的看法，但这也许不是你的本意，”而你实际上这么说，你就给了他们怀疑的好处，因为他们试图表现出来的方式实际上与人们对他们的看法不同。

You can have a better conversation then around, "Well, what can you do to change that perception?"

你们可以进行更好的对话，然后问“那么，你能做些什么来改变这种看法呢？”

Lenny Rachitsky: You mentioned I see product managers, and this is a good segue too.

Lenny Rachitsky：你提到我会见产品经理，这也是一个很好的延续。

You're a big deal, fancy chief product officer person.

你是一位了不起的首席产品官。

A lot of people listening to this podcast are early career PMs or trying to get into product.

很多听这个播客的人都是早期职业产品经理或试图进入产品领域。

I want to ask a couple of questions along these lines.

我想问几个这样的问题。

One is about getting into products.

一是关于进入产品领域。

So, interestingly, you got into product the same way I got into product, which is you used to be an engineer and then you moved into product within a company, which is maybe one of the simplest ways to get into product potentially.

因此，有趣的是，您进入产品的方式与我进入产品的方式相同，即您曾经是一名工程师，然后在公司内进入产品，这可能是进入产品的最简单的方式之一。

For people that are trying to break into product management, what advice do you often give them of how they could go about doing it?

对于那些试图进入产品管理领域的人来说，你经常给他们什么建议来指导他们如何去做？

I know there's never the silver bullet, but what's your advice?

我知道从来没有灵丹妙药，但你有什么建议？

Anneka Gupta: I definitely think doing it within the same company is a lot easier than trying to switch companies and switch jobs at the same time because when you're within a company, you've already built credibility, hopefully.

Anneka Gupta：我绝对认为在同一家公司内这样做比试图同时换公司和换工作要容易得多，因为当你在一家公司工作时，你已经建立了信誉，希望如此。

And if you haven't, then go crush it at your job so you build the credibility.

如果你还没有，那就在你的工作中全力以赴，这样你就可以建立信誉。

Then you can start to raise your hand, interact with the product team, take on projects and do things that allow you to get some experience and build a relationship with a leader on the product team who then may be willing to take a chance on you to put you into a product role even if you don't have the experience.

然后你可以开始举手，与产品团队互动，承担项目并做一些事情，让你获得一些经验，并与产品团队的领导者建立关系，然后他们可能愿意给你一个机会，让你担任产品角色，即使你没有经验。

Especially when you're within the same company, you bring other things to the table.

尤其是当你们在同一家公司工作时，你会把其他事情带到桌面上。

Let's say you're working in customer support, well, you have a huge amount of knowledge about what are the big problems that people are calling up the support team or opening tickets on the support team for, and that is valuable knowledge for being a product manager.

假设您在客户支持部门工作，那么您对人们打电话给支持团队或向支持团队开票的大问题有大量的了解，这对于作为产品经理来说是很有价值的知识。

Anneka Gupta: You're coming from the sales side, you're coming with a knowledge of how to sell the product, what really resonates, how do you do the objection handling, and that can be a valuable perspective.

Anneka Gupta：你来自销售方面，你了解如何销售产品、什么能真正引起共鸣、如何处理异议，这可能是一个有价值的视角。

If you come from the engineering side, but you understand how the product is built and you understand that technical nuances of that well, that can also be a valuable way to enter into the product team.

如果您来自工程方面，但您了解产品的构建方式，并且了解其技术细微差别，那么这也可能是进入产品团队的一种有价值的方式。

That way, even though you don't have the direct product experience, you're still bringing something to the table where you are going to have to get trained on core product management, but you're not going to have to be totally trained on the business or the technology.

这样，即使您没有直接的产品经验，您仍然可以带来一些东西，您必须接受核心产品管理培训，但您不必接受完全的业务或技术培训。

Lenny Rachitsky: So is the advice basically get a job in any function, not necessarily any function, but join a company however you can essentially and then push to try to get into the product team in some form?

Lenny Rachitsky：所以建议基本上是在任何职能部门找到一份工作，不一定是任何职能部门，但是加入一家公司，但你本质上可以，然后努力尝试以某种形式进入产品团队？

Anneka Gupta: Yeah, I think join a product adjacent function, which honestly pretty much every function is product adjacent, because what function does product not engage with, but as closely product adjacent as possible, and then yeah, find your way into the product world from there.

Anneka Gupta：是的，我认为加入一个产品相邻功能，老实说，几乎每个功能都是产品相邻的，因为产品不涉及哪些功能，但尽可能紧密地与产品相邻，然后是的，从那里找到进入产品世界的方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: Ideally there's something within the company, there's some program I imagine that does this sort of thing.

Lenny Rachitsky：理想情况下，公司内部有一些东西，我想有一些程序可以做这种事情。

Some companies have something structured, some are just kind of ad hoc.

有些公司有一些结构化的东西，有些只是临时的。

Is there anything there you're just like should you talk about this in your interview just like, "Hey, I would really love to become product manager someday." Do you have anything along those lines that would help me get into that or not?

您是否希望在面试中谈论这个问题，就像“嘿，我真的很想有一天成为产品经理”。你有什么类似的东西可以帮助我进入这个领域吗？

Or should you not talk?

或者你不应该说话？

Anneka Gupta: Well, I think it depends.

Anneka Gupta：嗯，我认为这要看情况。

For instance, when I joined LiveRamp, which was my previous company as a software engineer, I actually did say in the interview process I want to become a product manager I think.

例如，当我加入LiveRamp（这是我以前的公司）担任软件工程师时，我实际上在面试过程中说过我想成为一名产品经理。

At that point I was still early in my career, I didn't know for sure, but I said that.

那时我还处于职业生涯的早期，我不确定，但我这么说了。

Now that was a 20-person startup, so it was worth saying it because they didn't really have a product team and I wanted to put it out there that that was something I was interested in growing into.

现在那是一家 20 人的初创公司，所以值得一提，因为他们并没有真正的产品团队，而我想把它放在那里，这是我有兴趣成长的东西。

Anneka Gupta: If you're joining a 5000-person company, you're hiring manager is probably not going to receive it well if you're like, "Hey, I'm interviewing for product marketing, but really what I want to do is go into product." So, it just kind of depends on the company and the stage.

Anneka Gupta：如果你要加入一家拥有 5000 名员工的公司，如果你说“嘿，我正在面试产品营销，但我真正想做的是进入产品领域”，那么你的招聘经理可能不会很好地接受它。所以，这只是取决于公司和阶段。

You have to play that wisely.

你必须明智地发挥这一点。

But I think once you're in a company, then finding a way to make a relationship with the product leader, or if you're in a startup that is really small and they don't have product management, well then you have the opportunity to take on projects for sure that are product management related because no one is doing that work.

但我认为一旦你在一家公司，然后找到一种方法与产品负责人建立关系，或者如果你在一家非常小的初创公司并且他们没有产品管理，那么你肯定有机会承担与产品管理相关的项目，因为没有人做这项工作。

Really taking initiative to do that so that you can find an inroad into product management.

真正主动地这样做，这样你才能进入产品管理。

Lenny Rachitsky: Kind of along these lines, you have a really unique perspective on new PMs because you teach product management at Stanford.

Lenny Rachitsky：从某种程度上来说，您对新产品经理有着非常独特的视角，因为您在斯坦福大学教授产品管理。

You've been doing that for a while.

你这样做已经有一段时间了。

I just want to ask you work with a lot of people that are new to product, thinking about getting into product, then get into product.

我只是想问你与很多产品新手一起工作，考虑进入产品，然后进入产品。

What do you find are the things that new PMs or people getting into product most misunderstand about the role of PM or are most surprised by when they become product managers?

您发现新 PM 或刚进入产品的人对 PM 角色最误解的事情是什么，或者当他们成为产品经理时最惊讶的事情是什么？

Anneka Gupta: When we interviewed students as we were designing the class about what they wanted to learn, what was most surprising to me was that students would say, "Well, can you teach me how to use Figma?

Anneka Gupta：当我们在设计课程以了解他们想要学习的内容时采访学生时，最令我惊讶的是学生会说：“那么，你能教我如何使用 Figma 吗？

Can you teach me the tools that product managers are going to have to use?" What was surprising me about that was I don't think it's the tools that you need to learn to be successful.

你能教我产品经理必须使用的工具吗？”令我惊讶的是，我认为这不是你需要学习才能成功的工具。

I think what you need to learn to be successful is how to take very ambiguous situations and consistently drive more and more clarity over time.

我认为要取得成功，你需要学习的是如何应对非常模糊的情况，并随着时间的推移不断地变得越来越清晰。

So, it was interesting to see this mismatch between what people said they wanted to learn and what I felt they actually needed to learn.

因此，看到人们所说的他们想学习的内容与我认为他们实际需要学习的内容之间的不匹配是很有趣的。

Anneka Gupta: Now, having taught this class for a few years now, I think talking to students who have then left and become product managers, they've seen a lot of this in practice now and I think they understand that, but there is this mismatch of people who haven't been in product management saying they want to go and thinking that they need to learn some tools or process versus the mindset and the skills required to clarify ambiguity.

Anneka Gupta：现在，我已经教授这门课程几年了，我认为与那些后来离开并成为产品经理的学生交谈，他们现在在实践中看到了很多这样的情况，我认为他们理解这一点，但是没有从事过产品管理的人说他们想去，并认为他们需要学习一些工具或流程，而不是澄清歧义所需的心态和技能。

Lenny Rachitsky: Along those lines, I actually saw you somewhere in a talk or maybe something you wrote talk about how creating this class and creating the curriculum helped you crystallize your own thinking on product and helped you crystallize the mental models of becoming a product manager.

Lenny Rachitsky：沿着这些思路，我实际上在一次演讲中或者你写的一些东西中看到过你，谈论创建这门课程和创建课程如何帮助你具体化你自己对产品的思考，并帮助你具体化成为产品经理的心智模型。

Is there anything that you recall from that time of like here's something that's really helped me understand about this function and the skill as you were putting together the class?

在您组织课程时，您是否记得有什么事情确实帮助我理解了这个功能和技能？

Anneka Gupta: Yeah, I know anytime you're teaching something, you have to figure out a way to synthesize it for another audience, and so many of us have learned product management just figuring it out on the job.

Anneka Gupta：是的，我知道无论何时你在教授一些东西，你都必须找到一种方法来为其他受众综合它，而我们很多人都只是在工作中弄清楚它才学会了产品管理。

I don't know if there's a particular framework that I would say came out of that, but what I found very interesting was seeing the questions that people asked in the class and then feeling like, "Oh, I understand how to answer this question.

我不知道是否有一个我想说的特定框架，但我发现非常有趣的是看到人们在课堂上提出的问题，然后感觉，“哦，我明白如何回答这个问题。

I can provide an example for it." That was super interesting to me because I didn't expect that coming out of the conversation.

我可以提供一个例子。”这对我来说非常有趣，因为我没想到谈话中会出现这种情况。

Yes, there's frameworks we developed to talk about ideation and product discovery and all of that, but I think those are fairly flexible frameworks.

是的，我们开发了一些框架来讨论构思和产品发现以及所有这些，但我认为这些是相当灵活的框架。

Anneka Gupta: What was most enlightening was being able to crystallize the answers to some of these questions, whether it was about how do you interact as a PM effectively with engineering or what happens if the data shows you that it doesn't matter which direction you pick, like there's merits to both ways.

Anneka Gupta：最有启发性的是能够明确其中一些问题的答案，无论是作为产品经理如何与工程部门有效互动，还是如果数据表明您选择哪个方向并不重要，就像两种方式都有优点，会发生什么。

How do you actually go about making those decisions?

您实际上是如何做出这些决定的？

It was very interesting being able to then have those conversations with students and bring in the real life examples.

能够与学生进行对话并引入现实生活中的例子是非常有趣的。

And I found in some situations that actually go back to my own team and share the same answer that I came up with in class, I was like, "Oh, this is actually a valuable thing to share with my team back at my company."

我发现在某些情况下，实际上回到我自己的团队并分享我在课堂上得出的相同答案，我想，“哦，这实际上是与我公司的团队分享的有价值的东西。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Reminds me of the recent chat I had with this guy Alex Komoroske, where he talked about how oftentimes talking with people helps them uncover new insights that he had in his head and then he writes them down as soon as he says something that's really clever in any way.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我想起最近我和 Alex Komoroske 的一次聊天，他谈到与人们交谈经常可以帮助他们发现他脑海中的新见解，然后一旦他说出任何方面非常聪明的东西，他就会把它们写下来。

He's like, "Okay, I'm going to remember that now." Coming back to how to become a PM, so you see all these people getting and taking this class want to become product managers.

他说：“好吧，我现在要记住了。”回到如何成为产品经理，所以你会看到所有参加这门课程的人都想成为产品经理。

I know they're like Stanford students and people more likely hire Stanford people.

我知道他们就像斯坦福大学的学生，人们更有可能雇用斯坦福大学的人。

But I guess in terms of how they end up becoming PMs, if you were to look at the pie chart of the people that end up getting a PM job, what's the biggest chunk?

但我想，就他们最终如何成为 PM 而言，如果你看一下最终获得 PM 工作的人的饼图，最大的部分是什么？

Is it they join at some other function and then move into product?

他们是否会先加入其他职能部门，然后再进入产品领域？

Do they just join as a junior PM somewhere?

他们只是作为初级 PM 加入某个地方吗？

How are people actually getting into the PM role in that class?

人们如何真正进入该课程的 PM 角色？

Anneka Gupta: Yeah, I think very few are directly going to an established company and becoming a PM directly, so I would say a big chunk of them.

Anneka Gupta：是的，我认为很少有人直接去一家老牌公司并直接成为产品经理，所以我想说其中很大一部分。

Some of them are, but many of those then had PM experience to begin with or had engineering experience and then went to a technical company into a PM role.

其中一些是，但其中许多人一开始就有 PM 经验，或者有工程经验，然后去了一家技术公司担任 PM 角色。

The vast majority of them are joining product adjacent roles or they're going to small startups where they might be doing product management, might be the first product manager, or they might be doing product management plus plus, chief of staff, something like that where they get to put their hands in product management, but it's a super small company.

他们中的绝大多数人正在加入产品相关的角色，或者他们会去小型初创公司，在那里他们可能会做产品管理，可能是第一位产品经理，或者他们可能会做产品管理，再加上参谋长，类似的东西，他们可以把手放在产品管理上，但这是一家超级小公司。

So I think those have been the two most successful paths to get into product.

所以我认为这是进入产品领域最成功的两条途径。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

That's a really interesting lens into how people actually get into this role.

这是一个非常有趣的视角，可以了解人们如何真正进入这个角色。

Potentially final question, but we'll see where it goes.

可能是最后一个问题，但我们会看看它会走向何方。

I have this recurring segment on this podcast called AI Corner where I try to get a sense of just how people are finding AI tools useful in their work, in their life.

我在这个名为“AI Corner”的播客上有一个反复出现的片段，我试图了解人们如何发现人工智能工具在他们的工作和生活中有用。

So, let me just ask you, is there anything you've found useful in some AI tool in how you work?

那么，我想问一下，您是否发现某些人工智能工具对您的工作方式有用？

Like something you found that helps you work more productively, more efficiently, either you or people on your team?

您是否喜欢某些可以帮助您或您的团队成员更高效地工作的东西？

Anneka Gupta: One way that we're using AI today is summarizing our user research calls.

Anneka Gupta：我们今天使用人工智能的一种方式是总结我们的用户研究电话。

So, that has been really valuable because we're doing all these calls all the time, we're getting a ton of rich insights.

所以，这真的很有价值，因为我们一直在进行所有这些电话，我们得到了大量丰富的见解。

Some of those rich insights are related to the specific project that we were doing this call for and some of them aren't.

其中一些丰富的见解与我们正在执行此呼吁的特定项目相关，而另一些则不然。

And now we have that summarized and tagged in a way where you can look up any sort of thing that you want around the calls that we've done and it'll find you the call, it'll find you the context, it'll find you the transcript and summarize exactly what we've learned from that call.

现在，我们已经进行了总结和标记，您可以在我们所做的通话中查找您想要的任何内容，它会为您找到通话，它会为您找到上下文，它会为您找到文字记录，并准确总结我们从该通话中学到的内容。

So we're starting to use that more and more.

所以我们开始越来越多地使用它。

It's very powerful capability.

这是非常强大的能力。

I definitely think that that kind of summarization of information for PMs is a big unlock for organizations and I think we're still in the very, very early days of AI making a meaningful difference to the way that PMs do their work.

我绝对认为，对产品经理的这种信息总结对组织来说是一个巨大的解锁，而且我认为我们仍处于人工智能对产品经理工作方式产生有意义的改变的非常早期的阶段。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there a specific tool that you love to help you with that that you may want to give a shout-out to or is it something you guys built?

Lenny Rachitsky：有没有一个你喜欢帮助你的特定工具，你可能想要大声疾呼，或者这是你们开发的东西？

Anneka Gupta: Yeah, we use Dovetail and it's been fantastic.

Anneka Gupta：是的，我们使用 Dovetail，效果非常棒。

Connects into all of the Zoom calls and everything, it does a great job with summarization, with search, everything.

连接到所有 Zoom 通话和所有内容，它在总结、搜索等方面都做得很好。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

I love it when someone recommends a very awesome sponsor of the podcast.

我喜欢有人推荐一个非常棒的播客赞助商。

Dovetail is ongoing and excellent sponsor, so I'm really happy to hear that.

Dovetail 是持续不断的优秀赞助商，所以我很高兴听到这个消息。

Amazing.

惊人的。

Anneka, is there anything else that you thought you wanted to share or that you want to leave listeners with that you think might be helpful before we get to a very exciting lightning round?

Anneka，在我们进入激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想分享的，或者想留给听众的，您认为可能有帮助的吗？

Anneka Gupta: The mindset that you bring to your work is actually the most important thing over anything else that you can do.

Anneka Gupta：你在工作中所运用的心态实际上是你能做的任何事情中最重要的事情。

And if you are approaching every situation as much as possible with the positive mindset, you can do more than you could ever possibly hope to achieve.

如果你尽可能以积极的心态对待每一种情况，你就能做比你希望实现的更多的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm going to pull on this thread because this is such a powerful point and I think it's easy to just hear that.

Lenny Rachitsky：我将继续讨论这个话题，因为这是一个非常有力的观点，而且我认为很容易听到这一点。

It's hard to learn to do it.

学会这样做很难。

Do you have any advice on just how to build that mindset?

您对如何建立这种心态有什么建议吗？

Like it connects to many of the things you said: how can this be fun?

就像它与你所说的许多事情有关：这怎么可能有趣？

How can I be grateful to this person that's annoying me and the things that they might teach me?

我该如何感激这个让我烦恼的人以及他们可能教给我的东西？

Is there just anything you've done that has helped you build this mindset?

您所做的任何事情是否帮助您建立了这种心态？

Anneka Gupta: Journaling is very powerful.

Anneka Gupta：日记功能非常强大。

So actually growing up I journaled every single day of my life from when I was 13 to when I was 23.

所以实际上，我在成长过程中记录了从 13 岁到 23 岁的每一天。

And while I cringe to go back to read any of those, I think what it helped me do and build a practice around that I still do today is when I have a lot of thoughts going through my head, especially negative thoughts, just putting them all down on a piece of paper, writing them on my phone and trying to explore why am I feeling this way?

虽然我不愿意回去读其中的任何一篇，但我认为它帮助我做的事情并建立了一种我今天仍在做的实践是，当我脑子里有很多想法，尤其是消极的想法时，只需把它们全部写在一张纸上，写在我的手机上，并试图探索为什么我会有这种感觉？

Why am I getting triggered?

为什么我会被触发？

What is it about the situation that's making me feel so strongly?

是什么让我有如此强烈的感受？

Anneka Gupta: And when I put it down on paper, then it takes this thing that's abstract and things that I'm ruminating on and actually makes it possible for me to break it down and understand, "Well, okay, this is something I may feel, but the why behind it is a little irrational, so let me let this go." I realize that this isn't rational way to think about this.

Anneka Gupta：当我把它写在纸上时，它就会把这个抽象的东西和我正在思考的东西，实际上让我有可能将它分解并理解，“好吧，这是我可能感觉到的东西，但背后的原因有点不合理，所以让我放弃它。”我意识到这不是理性的思考方式。

Whereas other things I start to uncover, well, what is it about the situation and what is it that I need to do differently?

而我开始发现其他事情，那么，这种情况是什么以及我需要采取哪些不同的做法？

What's within my control and what is it maybe that I need to go talk to someone about and say, "Hey, I need you to do this differently to be able to make myself feel better and make the situation better."

什么是在我的控制范围内的，什么是我可能需要去和某人谈谈并说：“嘿，我需要你以不同的方式做这件事，以便能够让自己感觉更好，让情况变得更好。”

Lenny Rachitsky: It's interesting this is another thread that's been coming up a bunch on the podcast recently that when something is bothering you or something is hard, the more you actually listen to that part of yourself and dive into it and explore it and give it a space to share and talk, the less power it gets and the more space is created for the stuff you actually want to take space.

Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是，这是最近在播客上出现的另一个主题，当某件事困扰你或某件事很难时，你越是真正倾听自己的那一部分，深入其中，探索它，给它一个分享和交谈的空间，它获得的力量就越少，为你真正想要占据空间的东西创造的空间就越多。

It's not what you would expect because usually it's like, "No, shut up, everything's fine." But the more you actually hear that out, the easier things get.

这不是你所期望的，因为通常它就像是，“不，闭嘴，一切都很好。”但你真正听到的越多，事情就会变得越容易。

So, I love that you share that.

所以，我喜欢你分享这一点。

Anneka Gupta: It's like doing cognitive behavioral therapy on yourself.

Anneka Gupta：这就像对自己进行认知行为治疗。

That's how I think of it.

我就是这么认为的。

I've never actually done cognitive behavioral therapy, but I've read a lot about it and sometimes when I go through this, I'm asking myself the same questions that I think are asked in those settings.

我从未真正进行过认知行为疗法，但我读过很多相关内容，有时当我经历这一过程时，我会问自己我认为在这些环境中会问到的相同问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: Love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：喜欢这个。

All right, Anneka, is there anything else that you wanted to share or leave listeners with?

好吧，Anneka，您还有什么想与听众分享或留给听众的吗？

Anneka Gupta: I think that's all I can think of.

Anneka Gupta：我想这就是我能想到的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Well, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

Lenny Rachitsky：好了，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: All right.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

First question, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

第一个问题，您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Anneka Gupta: The Hard Thing About Hard Things by Ben Horowitz, such a great book, great again about mindset of how to approach hard things.

《安妮卡·古普塔：本·霍洛维茨（Ben Horowitz）的《安妮卡·古普塔：关于困难的事情的困难》（Anneka Gupta：The Hard Thing About Hard Things），一本很棒的书，再次讲述了如何处理困难事情的心态。

Second is I'm a huge fantasy sci-fi fan, so I love Brandon Sanderson's books.

其次，我是一个奇幻科幻小说的超级粉丝，所以我喜欢布兰登·桑德森的书。

I highly recommend those to people as well.

我也向人们强烈推荐这些。

Lenny Rachitsky: All I know about him is I saw videos of him after COVID where he just said, "I wrote five new books during COVIID." I was like, "what is going on?"

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我对他的了解只是我在新冠疫情之后看到了他的视频，他只是说，“我在新冠疫情期间写了五本新书。”我当时想，“发生了什么事？”

Anneka Gupta: He is someone that is at the top of his craft and I admire people so much that are truly the elite in what they do, and he's truly the elite in what he does.

Anneka Gupta：他是一个在自己的技艺上处于巅峰的人，我非常钦佩那些在他们所做的事情上真正是精英的人，他也是他所做的事情上真正的精英。

He writes a lot about writing, he podcasts a lot about writing.

他写了很多关于写作的文章，他制作了很多关于写作的播客。

It's pretty impressive.

这真是令人印象深刻。

Lenny Rachitsky: And he writes fantasy books, is that right?

莱尼·拉奇茨基：他写奇幻小说，对吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，酷。

It feels like a lot of books to read though.

不过感觉还是有很多书要读。

I'm just like, "Oh, my God, so many books." Okay, great.

我只是想，“哦，天哪，这么多书。”好的，太好了。

Next question, do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed?

下一个问题，您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？

Anneka Gupta: Again, on the fantasy sci-fi track, I really like Fallout, which is a dystopian show based on a post-apocalyptic, post-nuclear war world.

Anneka Gupta：再说一遍，在奇幻科幻片中，我真的很喜欢《辐射》，这是一部基于后世界末日、后核战争世界的反乌托邦节目。

It's very entertaining.

这非常有趣。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, it's just very quirky and fun.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，这非常古怪和有趣。

Lenny Rachitsky: And unexpected.

Lenny Rachitsky：而且出乎意料。

Awesome.

惊人的。

Do you have a favorite product that you've recently discovered that you really love?

您最近发现有一款您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？

Anneka Gupta: My eight-foot iPhone charger.

Anneka Gupta：我的八英尺 iPhone 充电器。

So I have a cord that's very long that allows me to move around the house and do stuff while my phone is charging because my phone is always running out of batteries.

所以我有一根很长的电线，可以让我在手机充电时在房子里走动并做一些事情，因为我的手机总是没电了。

So, highly recommend getting a super long charging cord.

因此，强烈建议您使用超长充电线。

Lenny Rachitsky: I've got one of those and I know exactly what you mean.

Lenny Rachitsky：我有其中之一，我完全明白你的意思。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to find useful and work during life?

您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，并且经常在生活中发现它有用并发挥作用？

Anneka Gupta: I think it comes back to dealing with lots of different types of people.

Anneka Gupta：我认为这又回到了与许多不同类型的人打交道的问题。

I really try to remind myself that everyone has something to teach and everyone has something to learn.

我真的尽力提醒自己，每个人都有东西要教，每个人都有东西要学。

I think that helps not only think about how you interact with other people, but also combat imposter syndrome because you have something to bring to the table and teach as well as anyone else, no matter what your age is, no matter what your background, and leaning into that and realizing that people can learn from you and you can learn from others in every single situation.

我认为这不仅有助于思考你如何与他人互动，还有助于对抗冒名顶替综合症，因为你可以像其他人一样把一些东西带到桌面上并教导，无论你的年龄是什么，无论你的背景是什么，并倾向于这一点并意识到人们可以向你学习，你可以在每种情况下向其他人学习。

Lenny Rachitsky: Final question.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：最后一个问题。

I heard that you're a big fan of Isaac Asimov.

我听说你是艾萨克·阿西莫夫的忠实粉丝。

Do you have a favorite Asimov book, one that you'd think if someone were to explore his canon, they might want to start with?

您是否有一本最喜欢的阿西莫夫的书，您认为如果有人要探索他的经典，他们可能会想从这本书开始？

Anneka Gupta: I really like the Foundation series, so starting with that is really good.

Anneka Gupta：我真的很喜欢《基金会》系列，所以从这个系列开始真的很好。

It's a very different style of writing.

这是一种非常不同的写作风格。

You kind of have to stick with it, but it's good, I promise.

你必须坚持下去，但我保证，这很好。

Lenny Rachitsky: And I'll build on that and say, "Don't watch the show because the show is so different from the book series." I don't know if you've seen it and-

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我会在此基础上说，“不要看这个节目，因为这个节目与系列丛书非常不同。”我不知道你是否看过——

Lenny Rachitsky: I was just like, what is going on?

Lenny Rachitsky：我当时想，发生了什么事？

This is not the story.

故事不是这样的。

Lenny Rachitsky: What are they doing?

莱尼·拉奇茨基：他们在做什么？

Amazing.

惊人的。

Anneka, this has been amazing.

安妮卡，这太棒了。

We covered so much ground.

我们涵盖了很多领域。

I feel like this is going to help a lot of people.

我觉得这会对很多人有帮助。

Two final questions, where can folks find you online if they want to follow up on things, maybe ask you questions or just check out the stuff you're up to and how can listeners be useful to you?

最后两个问题，如果人们想要跟进事情，可以在哪里找到您，也许会问您问题，或者只是查看您正在做的事情，以及听众如何对您有用？

Anneka Gupta: You can find me on LinkedIn, follow me, DM me.

Anneka Gupta：您可以在 LinkedIn 上找到我、关注我、私信我。

I would love to connect.

我很想联系。

The way you can help me is we're actually redesigning our Stanford class right now for PMs, and I would love to hear from you if you don't have any PM experience, what is it that you wish a class could teach you?

您可以帮助我的方式是，我们现在实际上正在为 PM 重新设计斯坦福课程，如果您没有任何 PM 经验，我很乐意听取您的意见，您希望课程可以教给您什么？

And that would be super helpful for me as we're redesigning this class.

当我们重新设计这个类时，这对我来说非常有帮助。

Thanks.

谢谢。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

And the way they could share that is DM you on LinkedIn or Twitter?

他们分享的方式是在 LinkedIn 或 Twitter 上私信您吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Easy.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：简单。

Amazing.

惊人的。

Anneka, thank you so much for being here.

安妮卡，非常感谢你来到这里。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

My pleasure.

我的荣幸。

Bye everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

大家再见：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。