The power of strategic narrative | Andy Raskin

Andy Raskin: The way I learned how to pitch in business school, and I think the way most people did is what I call the arrogant doctor.

安迪·拉斯金：我在商学院学习如何推销的方式，我认为大多数人所做的就是我所说的傲慢的医生。

So you have a problem, a pain, I have a solution, a treatment, and I'm going to tell you why it's better than all the other treatments.

所以你有一个问题，一个痛苦，我有一个解决方案，一种治疗方法，我会告诉你为什么它比所有其他治疗方法更好。

And the structure that I read about in these movies was different.

我在这些电影中读到的结构是不同的。

Every movie starts with some kind of shift in the world, and I call this shift the shift from the old game to a new game.

每部电影都以世界的某种转变开始，我将这种转变称为从旧游戏到新游戏的转变。

The archetypal example of this, I think in the business world, is what Benioff did with Salesforce.

我认为在商业世界中，典型的例子就是贝尼奥夫对 Salesforce 所做的事情。

So he comes in and he says, "Hey, software is over and there's this new world called the cloud, a new game, new rules.

所以他进来说：“嘿，软件已经结束了，出现了一个叫做云的新世界，一个新的游戏，新的规则。

That's the new way to win.

这就是获胜的新方式。

And we're going to help you if you're in there." This structure really is about defining a movement, and that's very different from, "Hey, I'm going to solve your problem."

如果你在里面，我们会帮助你。”这种结构实际上是关于定义一个运动，这与“嘿，我要解决你的问题”非常不同。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard won experiences building and growing today's most successful products.

Lenny：欢迎来到 Lenny 的播客，我在这里采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，学习他们来之不易的构建和发展当今最成功产品的经验。

Today my guest is Andy Raskin.

今天我的嘉宾是安迪·拉斯金。

Andy helps CEOs and company leaders align their teams around something he calls a strategic narrative, which as you'll learn all about in this episode, is essentially a simple story that helps people understand why they need your product.

安迪帮助首席执行官和公司领导者围绕他所谓的战略叙述来调整他们的团队，正如您将在本集中了解到的那样，这本质上是一个简单的故事，可以帮助人们理解为什么他们需要您的产品。

And with that helps you align your sales, marketing, and product teams along with your fundraising and even your hiring efforts.

这可以帮助您协调销售、营销和产品团队以及筹款甚至招聘工作。

Lenny: Andy has worked closely with some of the most successful founders and companies out there, including companies like Gong, Dropbox, Uber, Salesforce, Square, IBM, and many others.

Lenny：Andy 与一些最成功的创始人和公司密切合作，包括 Kong、Dropbox、Uber、Salesforce、Square、IBM 等公司。

In our conversation, Andy explains why most people are pitching their product completely wrong, why focusing on the problem you're solving for people is no longer an effective pitch and how the strategic narrative helps you frame your solution in a much more effective way.

在我们的谈话中，安迪解释了为什么大多数人推销他们的产品完全错误，为什么专注于为人们解决的问题不再是有效的推销，以及战略叙述如何帮助您以更有效的方式构建解决方案。

Andy also shares a ton of examples of the framework in action, why focusing on categories and category creation is so limiting, signs your narrative needs to work and so much more.

安迪还分享了大量实际框架的例子，为什么专注于类别和类别创建如此有限，表明你的叙述需要发挥作用等等。

Enjoy this episode with Andy Raskin after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短致辞后，请与安迪·拉斯金一起享受这一集。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Coda.

莱尼：这一集是由 Coda 为您带来的。

You've heard me talk about how Coda is the doc that brings it all together, and how it can help your team run smoother and be more efficient.

您已经听过我谈论 Coda 是如何将所有内容整合在一起的文档，以及它如何帮助您的团队运行得更顺畅、更高效。

I know this firsthand because Coda does that for me.

我直接知道这一点，因为 Coda 为我做到了这一点。

I use Coda every day to wrangle my newsletter content calendar, my interview notes for podcasts, and to coordinate my sponsors.

我每天都使用 Coda 来整理我的时事通讯内容日历、播客采访笔记，并协调我的赞助商。

More recently, I actually wrote a whole post on how Coda's product team operates, and within that post, they shared a dozen templates that they use internally to run their product team, including managing a roadmap, their OKR process, getting internal feedback, and essentially their whole product development process is done within Coda.

最近，我实际上写了一篇关于 Coda 产品团队如何运作的整篇文章，在这篇文章中，他们分享了十几个内部用来运行产品团队的模板，包括管理路线图、OKR 流程、获取内部反馈，基本上他们的整个产品开发流程都是在 Coda 内完成的。

Lenny: If your team's work is spread out across different documents and spreadsheets and a stack of workflow tools, that's why you need Coda.

Lenny：如果您团队的工作分散在不同的文档、电子表格和一堆工作流程工具中，那么您就需要 Coda。

Coda puts data in one centralized location regardless of format, eliminating roadblocks that can slow your team down.

Coda 将数据放在一个集中位置，无论其格式如何，消除了可能拖慢团队速度的障碍。

Coda allows your team to operate on the same information and collaborate in one place.

Coda 允许您的团队在一个地方处理相同的信息并进行协作。

Take advantage of this special limited time offer just for startups.

利用这一专为初创公司提供的特殊限时优惠。

Sign up today at Coda.io/Lenny and get $1,000 starter credit on your first statement.

立即在 Coda.io/Lenny 注册，并在您的第一份账单上获得 1,000 美元的入门积分。

That's C-O-D-A.io/Lenny to sign up and get a startup credit of $1,000.

C-O-D-A.io/Lenny 注册并获得 1,000 美元的启动信用。

Coda.io/Lenny.

Coda.io/莱尼。

Lenny: Are you hiring or on the flip side, are you looking for a new opportunity?

莱尼：你们是在招聘还是在寻找新的机会？

Well, either way, check out Lennysjobs.com/talent.

好吧，无论哪种方式，请查看 Lennysjobs.com/talent。

If you're a hiring manager, you can sign up and get access to hundreds of hand curated people who are open to new opportunities.

如果您是招聘经理，您可以注册并接触数百名对新机会持开放态度的精心挑选的人员。

Thousands of people apply to join this collective, and I personally review and accept just about 10% of them.

成千上万的人申请加入这个集体，而我个人审核并接受的人大约只有10%。

You won't find a better place to hire product managers and growth leaders.

您找不到比这更好的地方来雇用产品经理和增长领导者了。

Lenny: Join almost 100 other companies who are actively hiring through this collective.

Lenny：加入近 100 家通过这个集体积极招聘的其他公司。

And if you're looking around for a newer opportunity, actively or passively, join the collective.

如果您正在积极或被动地寻找新的机会，请加入这个集体。

It's free.

它是免费的。

You can be anonymous and you can even hide yourself from specific companies.

您可以匿名，甚至可以向特定公司隐藏自己。

You can also leave anytime and you'll only hear from companies that you want to hear from.

您也可以随时离开，并且您只会收到您想要的公司的消息。

Check out Lennysjobs.com/talent.

请访问 Lennysjobs.com/talent。

Andy Raskin: Oh, thanks Lenny.

安迪·拉斯金：哦，谢谢莱尼。

So great to talk with you.

很高兴与你交谈。

Lenny: You are quite known as someone that helps CEOs optimize their pitch, their story, their strategy, which we're going to get deep into.

莱尼：您因帮助首席执行官优化他们的宣传、他们的故事、他们的战略而闻名，我们将深入探讨这些。

But before we do that, can you just give us a little glimpse into how you found your way into this line of work?

但在此之前，您能否让我们简单介绍一下您是如何进入这一领域的？

Andy Raskin: I started as a coder.

安迪·拉斯金：我一开始是一名程序员。

I was a computer science major, undergrad, a friend and I had an idea for an app.

我是一名计算机科学专业的本科生，我是一个朋友，我有一个关于应用程序的想法。

So this was like during the dot com years.

这就像互联网时代的情况一样。

So Windows app, and we coded a little prototype and we started, we put it out there, we started getting some users and we thought, "Oh, okay, maybe we can get some investments." So of the two of us, I spoke English fluently.

所以Windows应用程序，我们编写了一个小原型，我们开始，我们把它放在那里，我们开始吸引一些用户，我们想，“哦，好吧，也许我们可以得到一些投资。”所以我们两个人中，我英语说得很流利。

So we decided, okay, I'll write the investor pitch.

所以我们决定，好吧，我来写投资者推介。

So I wrote the pitch, we sent it out and the reaction was really bad.

所以我写了提案，我们把它发出来，反应非常糟糕。

One VC wrote back and said, "Listen, I rate every plan I get on a scale of 1 to 10, and yours is a 1," and the next to the one he wrote in parentheses, "Worst," in case we thought maybe that was the top of his rating scale.

一位风险投资人回信说，“听着，我对我得到的每一个计划都按 1 到 10 的等级进行评分，而你的则是 1，”他在括号中写下的旁边是“最差”，以防我们认为这可能是他的评分等级的最高等级。

Andy Raskin: Yeah, brutal.

安迪·拉斯金：是的，残酷。

But then lower down, so this was back when they would like you'd print, send the hard copy of the plan and they might mail it back with comments written in.

但再往下看，他们希望你打印、发送计划的硬拷贝，他们可能会写上评论将其寄回。

And he had written in, "Not a compelling story." A few weeks later, I'm walking by this Barnes & Noble and there's a sign in the window that says, "For anyone who wants to tell a compelling story," okay, that's me.

他写道：“这不是一个引人入胜的故事。”几周后，我路过巴诺书店，橱窗里有一个牌子，上面写着：“对于任何想要讲述一个引人入胜的故事的人来说，”好吧，那就是我。

And there's an arrow that points to these books and they turned out to be screenwriting books.

有一个箭头指向这些书，结果证明它们是编剧书。

I didn't know anything about this, so I started reading these books and it strikes me a movie is a pitch.

我对此一无所知，所以我开始阅读这些书，我发现电影就是一个宣传。

What is Star Wars a pitch for?

《星球大战》的宣传目的是什么？

It's a pitch for be good, care about people, trust The Force in their terms.

这是一个向善、关心他人、相信原力的宣传。

But I don't have couple hours.

但我没有几个小时的时间。

I'm pitching a business.

我正在推销一项业务。

It's very different.

这是非常不同的。

I'm not writing a three X screenplay.

我不是在写一个三 X 的剧本。

Andy Raskin: So what applies, what doesn't apply?

安迪·拉斯金：那么什么适用，什么不适用？

I mean these are questions I think I'm still asking, but I did my best to take some of the learnings of how the movie was structured.

我的意思是，我认为这些是我仍在问的问题，但我尽力从电影的结构中吸取一些教训。

It was very different from how my pitch was structured and kind of restructure it.

这与我的演讲的结构和重组方式非常不同。

And we did that and we sent the pitch out and we start getting more interest.

我们这样做了，我们发出了提案，我们开始引起更多兴趣。

It was really clear.

这真的很清楚。

And then we had a term sheet I think a few months later and I'm like, "What is this story thing?" That we didn't change the product, it was basically the same business just sort of how we talked about it.

然后我们有了一份投资意向书，我想是几个月后，我想，“这个故事是什么？”我们没有改变产品，基本上是相同的业务，只是我们谈论它的方式而已。

That was really interesting to me.

这对我来说真的很有趣。

Andy Raskin: I mean, over the next 10, 15 years, I thought about, "Hey, maybe I could do consulting with this." CEOs who heard about this were asking me about it.

安迪·拉斯金：我的意思是，在接下来的 10、15 年里，我想，“嘿，也许我可以做这方面的咨询。”听说这件事的首席执行官们正在向我询问此事。

But I still was like, "No. No CEO's going to budget a line item for the story.

但我仍然想，“不。没有首席执行官会为这个故事制定预算。

That's not a thing." So I just didn't do it for a really long time until eventually I was proven wrong about that.

那不是一件事。”所以我很长一段时间都没有这样做，直到最终证明我的想法是错误的。

Lenny: And how many years ago was this at this point?

莱尼：此时是多少年前的事了？

Andy Raskin: So this was dot com.

安迪·拉斯金：这就是互联网。

This was like '98 when I was pitching that company.

这就像 98 年我推销那家公司时的情况。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

I think there's a couple interesting tidbits about this.

我认为这有一些有趣的花絮。

One is that interesting opportunities arise when you're doing something you're excited about.

一是当你做自己感兴趣的事情时，有趣的机会就会出现。

So you had the startup, it didn't work out, but you had a problem that you solved for yourself and that led to another, a bigger opportunity for your career.

所以你创办了一家公司，但没有成功，但你自己解决了一个问题，这为你的职业生涯带来了另一个更大的机会。

Lenny: So that's interesting.

莱尼：这很有趣。

And then also just some of the best opportunities arise from solving your own problem, not planning to start something with it, but just like, "I have a problem." Turns out -

然后，一些最好的机会也来自于解决你自己的问题，而不是计划用它开始一些事情，而是就像“我有一个问题”。事实证明——

Andy Raskin: Yeah, I think that's same with you.

安迪·拉斯金：是的，我想你也是这样。

Right, Lenny?

对吧，莱尼？

You started writing about stuff and boom, that became the thing.

你开始写一些东西，然后繁荣起来，这就成了事情。

Lenny: Absolutely.

莱尼：当然。

It was not quite boom, but eventually it became boom.

虽然还不是很繁荣，但最终它变成了繁荣。

Lenny: Yeah, that's how it goes.

莱尼：是的，事情就是这样。

It always overnight for everyone else that isn't here.

对于不在这里的其他人来说，总是要过夜。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Okay, so let's get into it.

好吧，让我们开始吧。

So you help CEOs at this point come up with what you call a strategic narrative and you help them not only come up with this strategic narrative, but you help their teams align around this strategic narrative.

因此，你在这一点上帮助首席执行官提出所谓的战略叙述，你不仅帮助他们提出这个战略叙述，而且帮助他们的团队围绕这个战略叙述进行调整。

So let's just start with what is a strategic narrative?

那么我们先来了解一下什么是战略叙事？

Andy Raskin: Yeah, you'd think, I've been doing this for 10 years, I'd have a very snappy definition of it there, and I don't know if I'm really happy with ...

安迪·拉斯金：是的，你可能会想，我已经这样做了 10 年，我对它有一个非常敏捷的定义，我不知道我是否真的满意......

like I've ever found one that totally gets at it yet.

就像我曾经找到过一个完全能做到这一点的人一样。

The one thing I say is it's this one story that the CEO uses to drive success in marketing, sales, but also product.

我要说的一件事是，首席执行官用这个故事来推动营销、销售以及产品的成功。

That it becomes like a north star, strategic north star for product roadmap, for fundraising, for recruiting, really everything.

它变得像北极星，产品路线图、筹款、招聘等方面的战略北极星。

Andy Raskin: What I think is really interesting as a kind of qualifier is that this story has a certain structure.

安迪·拉斯金：我认为作为一种预选赛真正有趣的是这个故事有一定的结构。

Like I said, when I found those screenwriting books, I sort of shifted the structure.

就像我说的，当我找到那些编剧书籍时，我改变了结构。

And the traditional structure, the way I learned how to pitch in business school, I think the way most people did is what I call the arrogant doctor.

传统的结构，我在商学院学习如何推销的方式，我认为大多数人所做的就是我所说的傲慢的医生。

So you have a problem, a pain, I have a solution, a treatment, and I'm going to tell you why it's better than all the other treatment.

所以你有一个问题，一个痛苦，我有一个解决方案，一种治疗方法，我会告诉你为什么它比所有其他治疗方法更好。

Andy Raskin: Not to say it's not better, but just this is the structure of it, and it kind of sets you up for bragging.

安迪·拉斯金：并不是说它不好，但这就是它的结构，它有点让你可以吹牛。

Let me tell you why it's so great.

让我告诉你为什么它这么棒。

And the structure that I read about in these movies was different.

我在这些电影中读到的结构是不同的。

In the movies, every movie starts with some kind of shift in the world, in the character's world.

在电影中，每部电影都以世界、角色世界的某种转变开始。

And I call this shift the shift from the old game to the new game.

我将这种转变称为从旧游戏到新游戏的转变。

And the archetypal example of this, I think in the business world is what Benioff did with Salesforce.

我认为商业领域的典型例子就是贝尼奥夫对 Salesforce 所做的事情。

So he comes in and he says, "Hey, software is over," meaning software in the sense that we're going to own it and maintain it, "And there's this new world called the cloud, a new game, like the new rules, everything has changed and that's the new way to win.

所以他进来说，“嘿，软件已经结束了”，意思是我们将拥有它并维护它的软件，“有一个叫做云的新世界，一个新的游戏，就像新的规则一样，一切都改变了，这就是获胜的新方式。

And we're going to help you if you're in there." This structure really is about defining a movement and that's very different from, "Hey, I'm going to solve your problem."

如果你在里面，我们会帮助你。”这种结构实际上是关于定义一个运动，这与“嘿，我要解决你的问题”非常不同。

Lenny: I think the Salesforce example is an awesome example of your approach.

Lenny：我认为 Salesforce 的例子是您的方法的一个很好的例子。

If they were thinking about it in the old way, what would Salesforce have done?

如果他们以旧的方式思考，Salesforce 会怎么做？

How would they have pitched it if not for, "Everyone's moving to the cloud, your dumb for using desktop software,"?

如果不是“每个人都在转向云端，你这个笨蛋竟然使用桌面软件”，他们会如何宣传呢？

Andy Raskin: Well, I think they would've just come out and said like, "Oh hey ..." I mean CRM by the way, was already a category.

Andy Raskin：嗯，我认为他们会说，“哦嘿......”我的意思是 CRM 顺便说一句，已经是一个类别了。

I mean, already Siebel was the huge giant of that space.

我的意思是，西贝尔已经是这个领域的巨人了。

There were already even companies doing it online, doing it through the web.

甚至已经有公司通过网络在网上进行这项工作。

And so they would've come and said, "Oh, we're easier to install, faster to get up and running than Siebel," or, "We have this much functionality compared to," I think it was, was it NetSuite?

所以他们会过来说，“哦，我们比 Siebel 更容易安装，启动和运行更快，”或者，“与 Siebel 相比，我们有这么多的功能”，我想是的，是 NetSuite 吗？

Or, I don't know.

或者，我不知道。

It was some early Salesforce-like thing that was out there.

这是早期类似 Salesforce 的东西。

They would've done these sort of comparison things.

他们会做这些比较的事情。

Andy Raskin: And Benioff, I mean he is a pretty proud guy.

安迪·拉斯金：贝尼奥夫，我的意思是他是一个非常自豪的人。

I think he did still say like, "Hey, we're the number one CRM," but wasn't what they led with.

我认为他仍然会说，“嘿，我们是第一大 CRM”，但这并不是他们的领导理念。

They led with this story about this fundamental paradigm shift and, are you in or are you not in?

他们以这个关于这一根本性范式转变的故事为主导，你参与还是不参与？

And what they did was instead of just saying, "Hey, we're better than," they said, "Hey, all those others, those Siebel's, they're part of that old game.

他们所做的不仅仅是说，“嘿，我们比他们更好，”他们说，“嘿，所有其他人，那些西贝尔的，他们都是那个老游戏的一部分。

You want to play that software game?

你想玩那个软件游戏吗？

Be my guest, go buy Siebel," and of course we know how it played out.

作为我的客人，去购买 Siebel”，我们当然知道结果如何。

Lenny: So the crux of the approach is instead of, "Problem, solution, you should go do this," it's, "The world is changing, here's where it's going and we're going to help you get there." I want go in a little more depth of the framework.

莱尼：所以这个方法的关键不是“问题、解决方案，你应该去做这件事”，而是“世界正在改变，这就是它的发展方向，我们将帮助你到达那里。”我想更深入地了解该框架。

But before that, what are some other examples to give people a sense of like, oh, I see, I understand what this might be.

但在此之前，还有哪些例子可以让人们有一种感觉，哦，我明白了，我明白这可能是什么。

Andy Raskin: Yeah, so another great example and no coincidence, so is Zuora.

Andy Raskin：是的，Zuora 也是一个很好的例子，这绝非巧合。

So Zuora is the company I wrote about in this post called The Greatest Sales Deck I've Ever Seen, the CEO of Zuora, Tien Tzuo, was employee number 11 at Salesforce.

Zuora 就是我在这篇名为《我所见过的最伟大的销售平台》的文章中提到的公司，Zuora 的首席执行官 Tien Tzuo 是 Salesforce 的 11 号员工。

So he learns this from Benioff.

所以他从贝尼奥夫那里学到了这一点。

And he's pitching, "Hey, in the old world, businesses operated on transactions.

他说：“嘿，在旧世界，企业是靠交易运作的。

You sold things to people outright.

你直接把东西卖给别人。

In this new world," he calls it the subscription economy, where people want the benefits of those things without necessarily having to pay for them.

在这个新世界中，”他称之为订阅经济，人们希望获得这些东西的好处，而不必为此付费。

And of course gives all these examples of all the winners in this, look at all the winning companies.

当然，还给出了所有获奖者的所有例子，看看所有获奖的公司。

They're all basically going to this new model.

他们基本上都会采用这种新模式。

Andy Raskin: And so he's pitching someone like Ford and you can imagine they're going to Ford and pitching a subscription for car service, which is quite different from just a lease.

安迪·拉斯金：所以他正在向福特这样的公司推销，你可以想象他们会向福特推销汽车服务订阅，这与单纯的租赁有很大不同。

And they're starting out with this.

他们就是从这个开始的。

This is the big shift.

这是一个巨大的转变。

Another one, team I worked with early on, and I think they'd agree their story came out of this work was Gong.

另一个是我早期合作的团队，我认为他们会同意他们的故事来自这部作品，那就是龚。

So Gong everyone probably knows by now, they take the video recordings of all your sales calls and they stick AI onto it and come out with all these insights.

现在大家可能都知道龚，他们会录制所有销售电话的视频，然后将人工智能应用到上面，然后得出所有这些见解。

And that story is, hey, goodbye opinions.

这个故事是，嘿，再见意见。

Used to be a world where sales is run on opinions.

过去，销售是根据意见进行的。

Hello reality, that now all the winners are adopting this new mindset where we really have to see what's really going on.

你好，现实，现在所有的赢家都在采用这种新的心态，我们真的必须看看到底发生了什么。

Lenny: In the Gong example, let's say, what would they have done if they were going, "Here's the problem, here's the solution, here's what we're going to do for you,"?

莱尼：在龚的例子中，如果他们说“这是问题，这是解决方案，这是我们将为您做的事情”，他们会怎么做？

Andy Raskin: Yeah, I mean that's kind of what they were doing when they started out.

安迪·拉斯金：是的，我的意思是，这就是他们刚开始做的事情。

And I'm not saying that didn't work totally.

我并不是说这完全不起作用。

I mean already by the time they started doing this, they were starting to become a big company.

我的意思是，当他们开始这样做时，他们已经开始成为一家大公司。

I remember Bendov said to me, "Listen, Andy," they were around series B, I think this is around 2018.

我记得本多夫对我说，“听着，安迪，”他们是在 B 轮上，我想这是在 2018 年左右。

It's like, "We're going to be a huge company.

就像，“我们将成为一家大公司。

The question is how huge.

问题是有多大。

And I think that this narrative along the lines of Zuora or Salesforce, if we get this right, this is going to be a multiplier on our growth."

我认为，按照 Zuora 或 Salesforce 的思路，如果我们做对了，这将成为我们增长的倍增器。”

Andy Raskin: So I don't remember exactly the pitch beforehand, but it was very much like, "Hey, we're going to record your calls.

安迪·拉斯金：所以我不太记得事先的情况，但它很像，“嘿，我们要录音你的电话。

We're going to get insights from them.

我们将从他们那里获得见解。

They're better than the insights you could get from Salesforce." There wasn't this kind of unifying kind of movement ideology that put it all in context.

它们比您从 Salesforce 获得的见解更好。”并没有这种统一的运动意识形态来将这一切放在背景中。

And what was really interesting was one thing, I don't think they'd be upset if I shared, and maybe it's known.

真正有趣的是一件事，我认为如果我分享他们不会感到不安，而且也许这是众所周知的。

Initially, they were seen as a tool for sales operations, for someone who's going to record the calls and what this narrative did for them.

最初，它们被视为销售业务的工具，供那些要记录电话以及这种叙述对他们做了什么的人使用。

And I think it was already starting to happen, but what it really coalesced was this is a tool for sales leadership.

我认为这已经开始发生，但它真正融合的是这是一个销售领导力的工具。

Lenny: You talked about Zuora in the post you wrote, and I imagine many people listening are like, "Oh, shit.

莱尼：你在你写的帖子中谈到了 Zuora，我想很多人听后都会说，“哦，该死。

This is the guy that wrote that post that everyone's always sharing with me about how to make a deck." And I wanted to ask, how impactful was that one piece of writing for you in your career, just like as a tangent?

这就是写那篇文章的人，每个人都总是与我分享如何制作套牌。”我想问，这篇文章对你的职业生涯有多大影响，就像切线一样？

Andy Raskin: I had written some other posts on Medium in particular.

Andy Raskin：我特别在 Medium 上写了一些其他帖子。

Medium has changed quite a bit, but back then I found that I could write stuff there and get really a lot of people who were interested in what I was interested would sort of come in and create some noise about it.

Medium 已经发生了很大的变化，但当时我发现我可以在那里写东西，并且让很多对我感兴趣的东西感兴趣的人进来并产生一些关于它的噪音。

So I was already doing this kind of work for a couple of years, but that post immediately got something like 2 million views around the world and I started getting inquiries from teams all over the world.

所以我已经做了几年这样的工作，但那篇文章立即在世界各地获得了大约 200 万次浏览，我开始收到来自世界各地团队的询问。

Andy Raskin: And it was I think what really allowed me to say no, okay, I could do this work.

安迪·拉斯金：我认为真正让我能够说不的是，好吧，我可以做这项工作。

That CEO's would budget a line item for this.

该首席执行官将为此制定一个预算项目。

Because I think if you really understand that post, it's not really about a sales deck, it's really about this story that Tien, the CEO is telling everywhere and that is showing up in the sales deck and structuring it that way.

因为我认为如果你真正理解这篇文章，它实际上并不是关于销售平台，而是关于 CEO Tien 到处讲述的这个故事，它出现在销售平台中并以这种方式构建它。

Lenny: I think it's just another example that comes up a bunch on this podcast is just the power of writing and the power of content.

莱尼：我认为这只是这个播客中出现的另一个例子，就是写作的力量和内容的力量。

Yeah, and you're shaking your head.

是啊，而你却在摇头。

Andy Raskin: Totally.

安迪·拉斯金：完全可以。

I mean, I had a little mini career as a journalist, as a freelance writer and I really loved that.

我的意思是，我有过一份小小的记者、自由撰稿人的职业生涯，我真的很喜欢这样。

I actually, I took a class in New York called How to Write a Magazine Article, because I was sort of mid-career, I was curious.

事实上，我在纽约参加了一门名为“如何撰写杂志文章”的课程，因为我当时正处于职业生涯中期，我很好奇。

And the class wound up being more about how to sell a magazine article.

这堂课最终更多地是关于如何销售杂志文章。

And I found I really loved that, pitching articles, but one thing that was always a downer for me was there's always this editor sort of deciding what's going to be out there.

我发现我真的很喜欢投稿，但对我来说总是令人沮丧的一件事是总是有一位编辑在决定要发表什么。

Andy Raskin: And when you work with a great editor, it's great, they make yourself better and they're priceless.

安迪·拉斯金：当你和一位伟大的编辑一起工作时，这很棒，他们让你变得更好，而且他们是无价的。

But still there's this intermediary.

但还是有这个中介。

What started to happen, I think around when I started writing around 2013, '14, you start to see these platforms, like Medium, even LinkedIn where you can just write and have this audience and I think no way I could do this, the work I do if that development hadn't happened first.

开始发生的事情，我想当我在 2013 年、14 年左右开始写作时，你开始看到这些平台，比如 Medium，甚至是 LinkedIn，你可以在那里写作并拥有这些受众，我认为如果没有首先发生这种发展，我不可能做到这一点，我所做的工作。

Lenny: I'm taking us off track, but I want to go a little deeper with this.

莱尼：我让我们偏离了正轨，但我想更深入地讨论这个问题。

I find that there's kind of two paths to writing online.

我发现在线写作有两种途径。

One is your path where you write one piece that just blows up like crazy.

第一种是你写出一篇像疯了一样爆炸的作品的道路。

The other path is more my path where I just write consistently for a long time, and both work and most people try to go your path and they never succeed.

另一条路更像是我的路，我只是长期坚持写作，工作和大多数人都试图走你的路，但他们永远不会成功。

It's really hard to make something gets 2 million views, but you can go that path.

让某件事获得 200 万次观看确实很难，但你可以走这条路。

Andy Raskin: This is like you said earlier, hey, it seems like boom, but really it didn't.

安迪·拉斯金：这就像你之前说的，嘿，看起来很繁荣，但实际上并非如此。

So that was probably the 30th or 40th piece and they were gradually getting more and more traction.

所以这可能是第 30 或第 40 篇文章，它们逐渐受到越来越多的关注。

There was one I wrote before that about, it's kind of dissecting Elon Musk's pitch for the Powerwall, the battery that they sell.

我之前写过一篇文章，它是对埃隆·马斯克（Elon Musk）对 Powerwall（他们销售的电池）的宣传的剖析。

And that one got maybe few hundred thousand views and also was a big jump.

那篇文章的浏览量可能有几十万，也是一个很大的飞跃。

And then the next one got some poultry number.

然后下一个得到了一些家禽号码。

So what I find is like, yeah, there's this a while where you're writing and it feels like you're talking to nobody and then gradually it grows and you'll have these peaks, but then over time is where the magic is.

所以我发现，是的，有一段时间你在写作，感觉就像你在和任何人说话，然后逐渐增长，你会达到这些峰值，但随着时间的推移，魔力就出现了。

Lenny: Okay, I'm really glad you pointed that out, that it rarely is just you write one thing and it's boom.

莱尼：好的，我真的很高兴你指出了这一点，很少是你只写一件事就能引起轰动。

Andy Raskin: I'll also say, sorry, because I worked in a magazine, I haven't done a newsletter because that idea of having a deadline all the time and constantly having to, we used to call the magazine Feed the Beast, I feel so free not to have that.

安迪·拉斯金：我还要说，抱歉，因为我在一家杂志社工作，所以我没有做过时事通讯，因为总是有最后期限并且必须不断地这样做的想法，我们过去称杂志为“喂养野兽”，我觉得很自由，没有这个。

So for now at least I haven't done that.

所以至少目前我还没有这样做。

Lenny: I know that well, so let me take us back on track and let's talk about just the high level framework here.

Lenny：我很清楚这一点，所以让我带我们回到正轨，让我们在这里讨论高层框架。

So you talked about, it starts with this idea of tell people worlds changing, join this movement.

所以你谈到，它始于告诉人们世界正在改变，加入这一运动的想法。

What's the simple way to think about this, the pieces of this strategic narrative framework?

思考这个战略叙事框架的各个部分的简单方法是什么？

Andy Raskin: A lot of times people will contact me, say, "Hey, I tried it, didn't work." Well, one very common thing, at least earlier was they would basically just take the Zuora deck, they'd get ahold of it and just put their logo on it.

安迪·拉斯金：很多时候人们会联系我，说：“嘿，我试过了，但没用。”嗯，一件很常见的事情，至少在早些时候是，他们基本上只会拿走 Zuora 牌组，他们会拿到它并把他们的标志放在上面。

And so that's not going to work.

所以这是行不通的。

One thing is we're not just saying, "Hey, the world is changing." And then sometimes I'll see, "The world is changing," and there'll be, "Used to be," and there's a long list of things and then, "Now it is," a long list of bullet points.

一件事是我们不只是说，“嘿，世界正在改变。”然后有时我会看到，“世界正在改变”，然后会有“过去是”，然后是一长串的事情，然后是“现在是”，一长串要点。

Andy Raskin: What's really, I think key is naming it, naming that old game.

安迪·拉斯金：实际上，我认为关键是命名它，命名那个老游戏。

The examples you saw, software, cloud, transactions, subscription opinions, reality.

你看到的例子，软件、云、交易、订阅意见、现实。

This very, very concise naming is really key.

这种非常非常简洁的命名非常关键。

And it's hard because in making it compact you're losing completeness.

这很困难，因为在使其紧凑的过程中你会失去完整性。

So you can imagine you're in a meeting, someone says like, "Hey, how about we do transactions to subscriptions?" And someone says, "Well I don't know, there's a lot of things I don't really subscribe to.

所以你可以想象你正在开会，有人说，“嘿，我们对订阅进行交易怎么样？”有人说：“我不知道，有很多东西我并不真正认同。

Subscription economy, really?" So we're always kind of overstating it in a way, but it's not a problem.

订阅经济，真的吗？”所以我们总是在某种程度上夸大了它，但这不是问题。

I don't think people say like, "Oh that's wrong, subscription economy, because I still go to the grocery store and buy things." So anyway, that's the first piece.

我不认为人们会说，“哦，这是错误的，订阅经济，因为我仍然去杂货店买东西。”无论如何，这是第一部分。

Andy Raskin: The second piece is what I call naming the stakes.

安迪·拉斯金：第二部分就是我所说的命名赌注。

And there's a few ways to do this, but one that's really great if we can do it is to name the winners to show that winners are already playing this new game.

有几种方法可以做到这一点，但如果我们能做到的话，最好的方法就是公布获胜者的名字，以表明获胜者已经在玩这款新游戏了。

So for instance with Zuora they're saying, "Hey, look, look at all the new winners," this is like 2015 so, "Airbnb, Box," all these companies, they're already doing this subscription thing.

例如，对于 Zuora，他们说，“嘿，看，看看所有新的获胜者”，这就像 2015 年，所以，“Airbnb、Box”，所有这些公司，他们已经在做订阅的事情了。

Andy Raskin: And by the way, overall they show this scary stat about the longevity of Fortune 500 companies.

安迪·拉斯金：顺便说一句，总体而言，他们展示了有关财富 500 强公司寿命的可怕统计数据。

It's getting smaller, and so it's a little disingenuous, but basically they make this case that, "Hey, companies are dying, the ones that are winning are doing this." And so to the extent we want to make this life and death just like a movie.

它变得越来越小，所以有点不诚实，但基本上他们的理由是，“嘿，公司正在消亡，那些获胜的人正在这样做。”所以我们想让这个生与死就像电影一样。

This is again, I'll make the parallel to Star Wars.

这又是，我将与《星球大战》进行类比。

So Luke, he spends the first 15 minutes of the movie belly aching.

所以卢克在电影的前 15 分钟里一直肚子痛。

He wants to be a pilot, he wants to go out and have adventures in space.

他想成为一名飞行员，他想出去在太空中冒险。

So Obiwan comes, he says, "Hey, we got this mission, this princess we got to go," and all this stuff, "Let's go.

所以欧比旺来了，他说，“嘿，我们有这个任务，我们必须离开这位公主，”以及所有这些东西，“我们走吧。

I'll teach you to be a pilot.

我会教你成为一名飞行员。

We'll go have adventures in space." What does Luke say?

我们将去太空冒险。”路加说什么？

He says, "Ooh, you know what, I can't really get involved.

他说：“哦，你知道吗，我真的无法参与其中。

They got to go home.

他们得回家了。

It's late." Who does this sound like?

已经晚了。”这听起来像谁？

The reluctant buyer.

不情愿的买家。

Andy Raskin: So yeah, "I want to be innovative and all this.

安迪·拉斯金：是的，“我想要创新等等。

Ooh, you know what?

哦，你知道吗？

I don't have budget this quarter." So how does George Lucas change Luke's mind?

我这个季度没有预算。”那么乔治·卢卡斯是如何改变卢克的想法的呢？

He basically kills the aunt and uncle, sorry, spoilers, it's been 40 years though.

他基本上杀了阿姨和叔叔，抱歉，剧透了，不过已经40年了。

If you haven't seen it, you're probably not going to see it.

如果您还没有看到它，那么您可能不会看到它。

Kills the aunt and uncle.

杀了姑姑和叔叔。

Now it's pretty clear they're coming for Luke.

现在很明显他们是来抓卢克的。

Now the stakes are life and death.

现在的赌注是生死攸关。

Probably he's going to be dead.

也许他快要死了。

But there is this other path that Obiwan holds out for him.

但欧比旺为他开辟了另一条路。

Andy Raskin: And whenever I work with teams and I talk about this, so they're like, "Okay, I guess we got to then for kill the prospect's aunt and uncle," and basically yes, I mean figuratively.

安迪·拉斯金：每当我与团队合作并谈论这个问题时，他们都会说，“好吧，我想我们必须杀死潜在客户的阿姨和叔叔”，基本上是的，我的意思是比喻性的。

We got to show them that the future is not going to just be sort of okay.

我们必须向他们表明，未来不会只是一帆风顺。

People talk about making it emotional and I've always wondered, what does that mean?

人们谈论让它变得情绪化，我一直想知道，这意味着什么？

Literally, what is the definition?

从字面上看，定义是什么？

This is for me the definition, is that the prospect doesn't see the future as sort of okay.

这对我来说是一个定义，即潜在客户认为未来不太好。

They see it as split between a very negative outcome and a potentially very positive outcome.

他们认为这是一个非常消极的结果和一个潜在的非常积极的结果之间的分歧。

Andy Raskin: The third piece is what I call naming the object of the new game.

Andy Raskin：第三部分就是我所说的命名新游戏的对象。

I used to call it the promised land message, but I've changed it to this because I've found that it's sort of a little more fruitful.

我曾经把它称为应许之地的信息，但我把它改为这样，因为我发现它更有成效。

This subscription economy, transactions, it can get a little highfalutin and sort of big, but on the website when we just have to boil it down to a couple of words that's going to be clear right away, what can we say?

这种订阅经济、交易，可能有点冠冕堂皇，规模也有点大，但在网站上，当我们只需将其归结为几个马上就能清楚的单词时，我们能说什么？

And I find that what's the object of the new game really boils it down as kind of the rallying cry of the movement.

我发现新游戏的目标实际上可以归结为运动的战斗口号。

So the example with Zuora, the object for a while was turn customers into subscribers.

以 Zuora 为例，一段时间内的目标是将客户转变为订阅者。

Very simple.

很简单。

It just sort of flows from it.

它只是从它流出来的。

Airbnb for a while had this one, live anywhere.

Airbnb 有一段时间就有这个，可以住在任何地方。

If you think about-

如果你想——

Andy Raskin: So you're right, it was, "Belong anywhere," and then it switched to, "Live there." I may have the chronology wrong, but it was the two of those things.

安迪·拉斯金：所以你是对的，它是“属于任何地方”，然后变成了“住在那里”。我可能把时间顺序搞错了，但就是这两件事。

You know better than I do.

你比我更清楚。

But either one, I mean think they're saying very similar things.

但我的意思是，无论是哪一个，他们都在说非常相似的事情。

Hey, there's this new world where you don't have to live in hotels, you can stay in people's houses.

嘿，在这个新世界里，你不必住在酒店，你可以住在别人的房子里。

What's the object of that game is to belong anywhere, but live there.

该游戏的目标是属于任何地方，但生活在那里。

And I love it when it works that way where it's almost like an asymptotically unachievable thing.

当它以这种方式工作时，我喜欢它，它几乎就像是渐近无法实现的事情。

You are never literally going to live there.

你永远不会真的住在那里。

And if you think about it, this buyer mission statement, this rallying cry, I think of it really as the mission of the company.

如果你仔细想想，这个买家的使命宣言，这个战斗口号，我认为它确实是公司的使命。

I mean, what is the mission of Airbnb other than to help people live there if they're going to be customer focused and all that?

我的意思是，如果 Airbnb 将以客户为中心，那么除了帮助人们住在那里之外，Airbnb 的使命是什么？

Andy Raskin: The fourth piece is, okay, well this object of the game, winning this game, it better be hard because if it's not, why would we even exist?

安迪·拉斯金：第四个部分是，好吧，好吧，游戏的这个目标，赢得这场游戏，最好是困难的，因为如果不是，我们为什么还要存在？

Just with the movie, if Luke can just go destroy the Death Star then no movie.

就电影而言，如果卢克能摧毁死星，那就没有电影了。

So there's got to be sort of obstacles in the way, things that are preventing them from.

所以一定会有某种障碍阻碍他们前进。

So saying, "Okay, you want to turn customers into subscribers." So whereas Zuora, where they go next is to say, "Okay, well how are you going to measure lifetime value?" Because now you have this always on thing.

所以说，“好吧，你想把客户变成订阅者。”因此，Zuora 接下来会说，“好吧，那么你将如何衡量终生价值？”因为现在你有了这个永远在线的东西。

"How are you going to measure preferences and how they're changing over?" All these new kind of challenges that didn't exist before.

“你将如何衡量偏好以及它们如何改变？”所有这些以前不存在的新挑战。

And then these are like the monsters in Lord of the Rings or the Empire in Star Wars, these are the obstacles.

然后这些就像指环王中的怪物或星球大战中的帝国一样，这些都是障碍。

Andy Raskin: I think about them because they sound like problems.

安迪·拉斯金：我思考它们是因为它们听起来像是问题。

This is what people would normally say, "Oh, these are the problems we solve." But by setting up this story thing first we've repackaged them as obstacles to a new goal state that we've already positioned as life and death.

这就是人们通常会说的：“哦，这些是我们解决的问题。”但通过首先设置这个故事，我们将它们重新包装为新目标状态的障碍，我们已经将其定位为生与死。

So they take on this much more emotional meaning.

所以它们具有更多的情感意义。

We understand why they matter.

我们理解它们为何重要。

And then of course the last piece is now talking about, well, how are we going to overcome these obstacles?

当然，最后一篇文章现在讨论的是，我们将如何克服这些障碍？

Narrative people, in the movie business they call these the magic gifts that the main character gets to go help them win.

电影界的叙事人士将这些称为主角获得的神奇礼物，可以帮助他们获胜。

What are the ways?

有哪些方法呢？

Now we can talk about that and success stories and all the rest of the stuff.

现在我们可以讨论这一点和成功故事以及所有其他内容。

Lenny: There's some obvious parallels to the hero's journey here.

莱尼：这与英雄的旅程有一些明显的相似之处。

I imagine that it was a source of inspiration, and the Star Wars I think is the epitome of that journey.

我想这是灵感的源泉，而《星球大战》我认为是这段旅程的缩影。

Can you talk about just how related those two are, how you think about that?

您能谈谈这两者之间的关系吗？您对此有何看法？

Andy Raskin: Yeah, I mean so hero's journey is this book that comes from, I think it's Hero of A Thousand Faces is a book by Joseph Campbell, a sociologist.

安迪·拉斯金：是的，我的意思是《英雄之旅》这本书来自，我认为《千面英雄》是社会学家约瑟夫·坎贝尔写的一本书。

He looks at myths over different cultures and different times and he finds this kind of common structure that he calls the hero's journey.

他研究了不同文化和不同时代的神话，发现了这种共同的结构，他称之为英雄之旅。

I mean it's some controversy about that, about his book.

我的意思是，关于他的书，存在一些争议。

Is it a very male oriented sort of take on things and a bunch of things.

这是一种非常以男性为导向的对事物和一堆事物的看法吗？

Andy Raskin: But even that aside, I found when I would talk about hero's journey and stuff, it's just like, it didn't really tell me what to do.

安迪·拉斯金：但除此之外，我发现当我谈论英雄的旅程和其他东西时，它并没有真正告诉我该怎么做。

Yeah, okay, yeah I got to do this pitch.

是的，好吧，是的，我必须做这个推销。

So in the hero's journey there's like refusal of the call.

所以在英雄的旅程中，就像拒绝召唤一样。

That's actually that thing where Luke says he doesn't want to go and where the buyer says, "Hey, I don't have budget." But I don't know, it was just too theoretical for me to really ...

事实上，卢克说他不想去，而买家则说：“嘿，我没有预算。”但我不知道，这对我来说太理论化了，无法真正......

when I use it, people seem to sort of glass over.

当我使用它时，人们似乎有点玻璃了。

So I just don't really talk about that at all.

所以我根本不谈论这个。

But yeah, I mean that's behind a lot of this stuff for sure.

但是，是的，我的意思是这肯定是很多事情背后的原因。

Lenny: Yeah, that makes sense because I think if people hear about that all the time when they're like, become a better storyteller, tell your story in this hero's journey, and it's like, "I don't know what I'm doing."

莱尼：是的，这是有道理的，因为我认为如果人们一直听到这个，当他们想成为一个更好的讲故事者，在这个英雄的旅程中讲述你的故事时，就像，“我不知道我在做什么。”

Andy Raskin: Also, I would say there's storytelling as a skill kind of thing, which is a great thing.

安迪·拉斯金：另外，我想说讲故事是一种技能，这是一件很棒的事情。

Learn how to tell stories better, blah, blah, blah, blah.

学习如何更好地讲故事，等等，等等，等等。

I'm not really interested in that in my work, what I'm interested in is the one story and the structure of that one story.

我对我的作品并不真正感兴趣，我感兴趣的是一个故事和这个故事的结构。

And this one story, it doesn't really have ...

而这个故事，其实并没有……

like, the world is moved from transactions to subscriptions.

就像，世界从交易转向订阅。

There's not a main character in that story who's like having a problem and getting saved.

这个故事中没有一个主角会遇到问题并得到拯救。

It's almost as if what's happening is we're turning the person we talk to into the main character.

就好像正在发生的事情是我们正在将与我们交谈的人变成主角。

By spelling out the shift, we're changing their world and we're saying, "Hey, you got to change and you want to come with us."

通过明确这一转变，我们正在改变他们的世界，我们说，“嘿，你必须改变，你想和我们一起走。”

Lenny: It's almost like you're putting them into the hero's journey, like, "Here's how you win."

莱尼：这几乎就像你把他们带入英雄的旅程，就像，“这就是你获胜的方式。”

Lenny: Let me just try to summarize what you shared, this five step framework.

莱尼：让我尝试总结一下您分享的内容，即这个五步框架。

So you start with here's a new movement that's happening and you want to name it, you want to name the stakes and there's winners and losers and here's already happening and it's really important.

所以你从这里正在发生的一个新运动开始，你想命名它，你想命名它的赌注，有赢家和输家，这已经发生了，这非常重要。

Then you want to name the object of the new game, like turning customers into subscribers.

然后你要为新游戏的目标命名，比如将客户变成订阅者。

Then show the obstacles, here's why it's challenging, and then talk about how you're going to overcome these obstacles.

然后展示障碍，这就是为什么它具有挑战性，然后谈论你将如何克服这些障碍。

Andy Raskin: And by the way, the naming of the object of the new game, I find it often is really nice to do it as a question.

安迪·拉斯金：顺便说一句，新游戏对象的命名，我发现将其作为一个问题来解决通常非常好。

So we hey, there's this shift from transactions to subscriptions and look, everyone's doing it.

所以我们嘿，这是从交易到订阅的转变，看，每个人都在这样做。

So we asked a simple question, what would it take to turn every customer into a subscriber?

所以我们问了一个简单的问题，如何才能将每个客户变成订阅者？

And this way we're kind of bringing the person we're pitching to almost like they're coming along with us as a co, I don't know, adventurer in crafting this story.

通过这种方式，我们让我们所推销的人几乎就像他们作为一个合作者，我不知道，与我们一起创作这个故事。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

This episode is brought to you by Eco.

本期节目由艾科为您带来。

Last month Eco users earned an average of $84 in cash back rewards.

上个月 Eco 用户平均获得了 84 美元的现金返还奖励。

How?

如何？

With Eco the future of personal finance.

Eco 是个人理财的未来。

Eco is the update to a misaligned financial system providing an app that works just like your bank but removes almost all of the middlemen, helping even the best money optimizers optimize in less time automatically.

Eco 是对错位金融系统的更新，它提供了一个像银行一样工作的应用程序，但消除了几乎所有中间商，甚至可以帮助最好的资金优化器在更短的时间内自动优化。

Lenny: What if you earn rewards for paying your rent or got rewarded for ordering food and shopping online or even earn rewards for saving each month?

莱尼：如果您通过支付房租获得奖励，或者通过订购食物和在线购物获得奖励，甚至通过每月储蓄获得奖励，该怎么办？

And then imagine if you got rewarded again just for getting rewarded.

然后想象一下，如果您仅仅因为获得奖励而再次获得奖励。

With Eco, you can spend at some of your favorite merchants and automatically get 5% cash back plus Eco's APY rewards look more like $80, not 80 cents.

通过 Eco，您可以在一些您最喜欢的商家消费并自动获得 5% 的现金返还，此外 Eco 的 APY 奖励看起来更像是 80 美元，而不是 80 美分。

And then there are Eco points, the world's first open reward system.

还有生态积分，这是世界上第一个开放的奖励系统。

You earn them whenever you do almost anything in the eco app.

只要您在生态应用程序中执行几乎任何操作，您就可以获得它们。

Eco is working to make these points the most rewarding points ever so it pays to be early.

Eco 正在努力使这些积分成为有史以来最有价值的积分，因此尽早获得是值得的。

Lenny: Sound too good to be true?

莱尼：听起来好得令人难以置信？

Go to Eco.com/Lenny, sign up for an onboarding and find out why it isn't.

访问 Eco.com/Lenny，注册加入并找出原因。

Lenny's podcast listeners who attend an Eco welcome session will get an exclusive 4% APY on deposits over $1,000.

参加 Eco 欢迎会的 Lenny 播客听众存款超过 1,000 美元即可获得 4% 的独家年利率。

Learn more at Eco.com/Lenny, that's E-C-O.com/Lenny.

如需了解更多信息，请访问 Eco.com/Lenny，即 E-C-O.com/Lenny。

Maybe just to reinforce this even more, what if we go through the five steps and just with one company as an example and just talk about what each of those were for them?

也许只是为了进一步强调这一点，如果我们通过这五个步骤并仅以一家公司为例，然后讨论每个步骤对他们来说意味着什么，会怎么样？

Andy Raskin: Okay, great.

安迪·拉斯金：好的，太好了。

So there's a company called 360Learning.

于是就有了一家叫做360Learning的公司。

So this company, I don't know if folks know, but this company is raised over $200 million.

所以这家公司，我不知道人们是否知道，但这家公司筹集了超过 2 亿美元。

They're in the space of corporate training software.

他们属于企业培训软件领域。

So big companies, they have to train their people on all kinds of stuff.

这么大的公司，他们必须对员工进行各种培训。

So you want to go through that one?

那么你想经历一下吗？

Andy Raskin: Okay, great.

安迪·拉斯金：好的，太好了。

By the way, Nick Hernandez is the CEO and Nick's been on my podcast, so he's talked about this.

顺便说一句，尼克·埃尔南德斯是首席执行官，尼克一直在我的播客上，所以他谈到了这个。

So they for a long time were pitching themselves as collaborative learning.

因此，他们很长一段时间都将自己定位为协作学习。

So they have features that let people sort of collaborate on courses and all kinds of stuff.

因此，它们具有让人们在课程和各种内容上进行协作的功能。

And Nick is often pitching CEOs, of course his team is as well.

尼克经常向首席执行官推销，当然他的团队也是如此。

And he told me that it was sort of falling a little bit flat.

他告诉我，情况有点平淡。

People, collaborative learning, whatever.

人、协作学习等等。

How are you different from this learning platform, this learning platform?

你和这个学习平台、这个学习平台有什么不同？

Andy Raskin: And so when we worked together this collaborative learning, it's almost like a category name or a descriptor or something.

安迪·拉斯金：所以当我们一起进行这种协作学习时，它几乎就像一个类别名称或描述符或其他东西。

They were so embedded that I decided, I don't even want to take it out, but can we define it in terms of a story?

它们是如此根深蒂固，我决定，我什至不想把它拿出来，但我们可以用故事来定义它吗？

So the story they came to was, hey, used to be that companies train their people through basically a mindset of top-down learning.

所以他们得出的故事是，嘿，过去公司基本上通过自上而下学习的心态来培训员工。

There's going to be some learning guru at the company, they're going to get all the courses, they're going to put it all together and sort of send out this training material to everybody.

公司将会有一些学习大师，他们将获得所有课程，他们将把所有课程放在一起，然后将培训材料发送给每个人。

Andy Raskin: What's happening now is winning companies are approaching this differently.

安迪·拉斯金：现在的情况是，成功的公司正在以不同的方式处理这个问题。

They're adopting this approach we might call upskill from within, which is if you look at Google, there's this page where I think you can go, it's a public.

他们正在采用这种方法，我们可以称之为从内部提高技能，如果你看看谷歌，我认为你可以去这个页面，它是一个公共页面。

You can connect with Google's AI experts.

您可以与 Google 的 AI 专家联系。

They literally turn their internal experts into champions that are educating, not even just the company but even external people.

他们确实将内部专家变成了教育的拥护者，不仅是对公司，甚至是对外部人员。

They've created this culture of our own people are going to be the educators.

他们创造了这种文化，我们自己的人民将成为教育者。

So that's the shift from top down to this upskill from within.

这就是从自上而下到从内部提升技能的转变。

And of course I just even started to do the second piece which was like, hey, look at the big companies who are doing this.

当然，我什至刚刚开始做第二部分，就像，嘿，看看正在做这件事的大公司。

Andy Raskin: And then I think they showed, "Hey, you're not doing this.

安迪·拉斯金：然后我认为他们表现出，“嘿，你没有这样做。

Look, training is becoming very expensive.

看，培训变得非常昂贵。

People don't care.

人们不在乎。

So this is the downside.

所以这是缺点。

So we're creating these sort of stake ..." And also I think he has something about how training now, like companies, if you don't adapt, if you can't get these skills to your people, if you're a car company and you can't get these skills around electric cars, you're dead.

所以我们正在创造这种股权......”而且我认为他对现在的培训有一些了解，就像公司一样，如果你不适应，如果你不能让你的员工获得这些技能，如果你是一家汽车公司并且你不能获得有关电动汽车的这些技能，你就死定了。

Andy Raskin: Nick was in France and he saw this poster, a recruiting poster from McDonald's and it said, "Hey, if you work at McDonald's you're going to learn from everybody else on your team." And it was like, wow, there it is.

安迪·拉斯金：尼克在法国，他看到了这张海报，一张来自麦当劳的招聘海报，上面写着：“嘿，如果你在麦当劳工作，你就会向团队中的其他人学习。”就像，哇，它就在那里。

So there's another example we used as a kind of winner example.

我们用另一个例子作为获胜者的例子。

And so then the question became, I can't remember exactly, it was something like, how do you upskill from within?

那么问题就变成了，我记不太清了，就像是，你如何从内部提升技能？

What would it take for you to turn your experts into champions of learning in the company and turn them into stars, and all this?

你需要怎样做才能把你的专家变成公司的学习冠军，把他们变成明星，等等？

Andy Raskin: And then I'm going to forget here what all the obstacles were.

安迪·拉斯金：然后我就会忘记所有的障碍是什么。

But I think it was things like, well, how are you going to make it possible for anybody to create a course?

但我认为问题是，嗯，你如何让任何人都可以创建课程？

People who might have expertise in electric engines but don't know how to create a course, how are you going to make sure that there's still the learning department, they're going to keep control and can ...

那些可能拥有电动发动机专业知识但不知道如何创建课程的人，你如何确保仍然有学习部门，他们将保持控制并且可以......

all this.

所有这一切。

You can imagine all the different kind of questions.

你可以想象所有不同类型的问题。

And then of course now 360Learning starts talking about all that stuff.

当然，现在 360Learning 开始讨论所有这些内容。

Andy Raskin: What Nick has told me, I'm actually going to be on a webinar with Nick where someone asked me, "Could you bring in a CEO who could talk about this stuff?

安迪·拉斯金：尼克告诉我的，我实际上要和尼克一起参加一个网络研讨会，有人问我，“你能请一位可以谈论这些东西的首席执行官吗？

Not just you B blabbing on about strategic narrative." And so Nick is going to join it.

不只是你B在喋喋不休地谈论战略叙事。”所以尼克将加入其中。

And we had a dress rehearsal the other day and he was telling me it's just like when he starts with this now he doesn't even get the question anymore of well how are you different from this other learning platform?

前几天我们进行了一次彩排，他告诉我，就像他开始使用这个时一样，现在他甚至不再问“你与其他学习平台有何不同？”的问题。

Which used to always be the thing.

这过去一直都是这样。

It's just a much more seamless, okay, yeah, talk to our learning people, get this going.

这只是一个更加无缝的过程，好吧，是的，与我们的学习人员交谈，让这一切继续下去。

So it's just sounds like it's been really effective for them.

所以听起来这对他们来说真的很有效。

Lenny: That's actually was what I was going to ask next is what kind of impact have you seen with someone shifting their pitch story from this doc?

莱尼：这实际上是我接下来要问的问题，你看到有人从这篇文档中改变他们的宣传故事会产生什么样的影响？

What was the arrogant doctor approach to the strategic narrative?

傲慢的医生对战略叙述的态度是什么？

Andy Raskin: Yeah, I mean it's always this kind of thing I hear.

安迪·拉斯金：是的，我的意思是我总是听到这样的事情。

I mean, of course it's very difficult to measure this.

我的意思是，当然很难衡量这一点。

I mean, what was the value of the strategic narrative for Gong and its growth?

我的意思是，Gong 及其发展的战略叙述的价值是什么？

Was it 3X versus 1X, 2X?

是 3X 还是 1X、2X？

Or I don't, who knows, right?

或者我不知道，谁知道呢，对吧？

But the things I hear from CEOs, a few things.

但我从首席执行官那里听到了一些事情。

One is that when they're pitching, they're not pitching features out of context, they're pitching now a movement which is a lot better place to be, I think.

其一是，当他们进行宣传时，他们不会断章取义地宣传功能，我认为他们现在正在宣传一场更好的运动。

In a way you're not pitching product.

在某种程度上，你并不是在推销产品。

Product is like a prop for making the story come true.

产品就像是让故事成真的道具。

Very important prop, but there's this higher level overlay that becomes the focus of the conversation, at first, and of course we're going to get into product and that helps sell.

非常重要的支柱，但首先，这种更高层次的覆盖成为对话的焦点，当然我们将进入产品领域，这有助于销售。

Once we have this story then everything in marketing can be all about this story.

一旦我们有了这个故事，那么营销中的一切都可以围绕这个故事展开。

Andy Raskin: With Zuora, if you look at their website, well when they first started doing this, maybe 80% of the content is not, "Hey, let me tell you about how Zuora is so great," or, "Here's our new release," or whatever.

Andy Raskin：对于 Zuora，如果你看一下他们的网站，当他们第一次开始这样做时，也许 80% 的内容不是“嘿，让我告诉你 Zuora 有多棒”，或者“这是我们的新版本”，或者其他什么。

It's, "Here's how music companies are embracing subscriptions.

它是，“这就是音乐公司接受订阅的方式。

Here's how luxury goods companies are embracing subscriptions." It's all these kind of almost trend pieces that become unlimited fodder.

以下是奢侈品公司如何接受订阅的方式。”所有这些近乎流行的单品都成为了无限的素材。

And again, you're not touting your ...

再说一遍，你不是在兜售你的...

it's less salesy, right?

它的销量不太好，对吧？

Andy Raskin: Another thing I just hear always, I just interviewed a CEO this morning for my podcast and this is the first thing he actually said was, "It becomes the strategic north star for the product." So what he was telling me, and this was actually a little unusual, I asked him, "Why did you come to me at first?" And of course I'd asked him that before, but he said something this time that was a little different from what I'd heard before.

安迪·拉斯金：我经常听到的另一件事是，今天早上我刚刚在播客中采访了一位首席执行官，这是他实际上说的第一句话，“它成为了产品的战略北极星。”所以他告诉我的，这实际上有点不寻常，我问他：“你一开始为什么来找我？”当然，我以前问过他这个问题，但这次他说的话与我以前听到的有些不同。

He said, "We are constantly getting feature requests through sales, through customer success.

他说：“我们通过销售和客户成功不断收到功能请求。

And we had sort of no way, bar to decide well what do we take on, what don't we take on?

我们几乎没有办法决定我们该做什么、不该做什么？

And this clearly has become our bar."

这显然已经成为我们的酒吧。”

Andy Raskin: If you think about it for 360Learning, does it help us upskill from within?

Andy Raskin：如果您考虑一下 360Learning，它是否有助于我们从内部提升技能？

It's in.

就进去了

Does it not?

不是吗？

Or it's prioritized.

或者说它是优先的。

Does it not?

不是吗？

Less prioritized.

优先级较低。

Amit Bendov told me this directly, he said we exactly the same thing.

阿米特·本多夫直接告诉我这一点，他说我们完全一样。

He said, "We get a lot of requests for features and a lot of them are basically about opinions, some way to record opinions."

他说：“我们收到了很多对功能的请求，其中很多基本上都是关于意见、某种记录意见的方式。”

Andy Raskin: "We're not going to do those." In Gong, yeah.

安迪·拉斯金：“我们不会这么做。”在龚，是的。

"We're not going to do those."

“我们不会做那些事。”

Lenny: Are there any companies out there that maybe aren't clients that you see as like, wow, these guys are nailing it and they're doing a great job of this strategic narrative?

莱尼：是否有任何公司不是您认为的客户，哇，这些人正在搞定它，并且他们在战略叙述方面做得很好？

Andy Raskin: Well, one that really comes to mind is, I mean it's been out there for a while, but Drift.

安迪·拉斯金：嗯，我真正想到的是，我的意思是它已经存在了一段时间，但是《漂移》。

Drift comes out with essentially like a chatbot for your website, which might be the 30th chatbot for your website.

Drift 的推出本质上就像您网站的聊天机器人，这可能是您网站的第 30 个聊天机器人。

And they don't say, "Hey, here's why our chatbot is the best one." They start from a completely different place, which is, "Hey, used to be people would sort of wait around for you to get back to them.

他们不会说：“嘿，这就是为什么我们的聊天机器人是最好的。”他们从一个完全不同的地方开始，那就是，“嘿，过去人们会等你回到他们身边。

It was a world of later.

那是一个后来的世界。

They called it the world of forms.

他们称之为形式世界。

You put up a web form and you expect someone's going to fill it out and maybe wait a few days while you take your sweet time deciding if you're going to get back to them."

你发布了一份网络表格，希望有人会填写它，也许要等几天，然后你才能慢慢决定是否要回复他们。”

Andy Raskin: And David Cancel and David Gerhardt started from right the beginning saying, "Now we're in a world of now, where buyers are ..." I think they showed this woman, I remember it was this woman sleeping with her phone.

安迪·拉斯金：大卫·坎塞尔和大卫·格哈特从一开始就说，“现在我们处于一个现在的世界，买家......”我想他们展示了这个女人，我记得是这个女人抱着手机睡觉。

That's your prospect.

这就是你的前景。

They're always on and they're going to expect you to be engaging with them right away.

他们始终在线，并且希望您立即与他们互动。

And they called this conversational marketing, and they really went with that and created I think a whole movement and they broke away from all of the other chatbots.

他们称之为对话式营销，他们确实遵循了这一点，并创造了一场完整的运动，他们脱离了所有其他聊天机器人。

Lenny: Awesome example.

莱尼：很棒的例子。

So earlier you threw out this word category, and I've noticed you haven't talked about category and category creation too much, and I think that you're kind of not a fan of this idea of creating a category and focusing on category.

所以早些时候你抛出了“类别”这个词，我注意到你没有过多地谈论类别和类别创建，我认为你不太喜欢创建类别和专注于类别的想法。

I'd love to hear your perspective on how that all relates to the stuff you recommend.

我很想听听您对这一切与您推荐的内容有何关系的看法。

Andy Raskin: Lenny, are you trying to get me in trouble?

安迪·拉斯金：莱尼，你是想给我惹麻烦吗？

Like that guy who guy on your podcast who attacked jobs to be done?

就像那个在你的播客上攻击待完成工作的人一样吗？

Lenny: Apparently, let's do it.

莱尼：显然，我们就这么做吧。

Let's see what kind of trouble we can get into.

让我们看看我们会遇到什么样的麻烦。

Andy Raskin: I would soften it a little bit and not just ...

安迪·拉斯金：我会软化一点，而不仅仅是......

because I don't want the ire of the category design folks, but I really would soften and say, I wouldn't say I'm not a fan of creating category.

因为我不想惹恼类别设计人员，但我真的会软化并说，我不会说我不喜欢创建类别。

Look, I think if you look at Play Bigger, which has become The Bible of that category creation thing, if you look behind that going to, what do they say the category is?

听着，我想，如果你看看“Play Bigger”，它已经成为该类别创建事物的圣经，如果你看看它的背后，他们说的类别是什么？

They say it's a narrative.

他们说这是一个叙述。

It's a story about how the world was to how it is.

这是一个关于世界原本是怎样的故事。

And so what I find though is that when people think about category creation, they tend to just focus on, okay, well, what is this category name going to be that we got?

所以我发现，当人们考虑类别创建时，他们往往只关注，好吧，我们得到的这个类别名称是什么？

What are these three words or two words, whatever, that are going to magically make us seem like we're totally different from everybody else?

这三个词或两个词到底是什么，会神奇地让我们看起来与其他人完全不同？

Andy Raskin: And A, I think that's not really possible.

安迪·拉斯金：我认为这不太可能。

These three words aren't going to do it.

这三个字是不行的。

Take Gong, I mean already other companies were using this term revenue intelligence.

以龚为例，我的意思是其他公司已经在使用这个术语“收入情报”。

With Gong, it suddenly becomes a thing because I think they have this opinions-to-reality story behind it.

对于龚来说，这突然变得很重要，因为我认为他们背后有这个从观点到现实的故事。

At one point, again, I asked Amit, he said, "Yeah," because I remember he really struggled, "What should we call it?

有一次，我再次问阿米特，他说，“是的，”因为我记得他真的很挣扎，“我们应该怎么称呼它？

What should we call it?"

我们应该叫它什么？”

Andy Raskin: He came up with that one.

安迪·拉斯金：他想出了这个。

But then when I asked him later, he is like, "Yeah, you know what?

但当我后来问他时，他说：“是的，你知道吗？

In hindsight we probably could have called it strawberry intelligence.

事后看来，我们可能可以将其称为草莓智能。

It didn't matter.

没关系。

It was really the story that sort of mattered." I think he was exaggerating a little bit.

真正重要的是这个故事。”我认为他有点夸张了。

And I think the category people would actually agree with this, I think they would agree with, hey, these three words are, it's sort of a shorthand for this movement of old game narrative.

我认为人们实际上会同意这一点，我认为他们会同意，嘿，这三个词是，这是旧游戏叙事运动的简写。

Andy Raskin: But I guess I feel like still by calling it category and category name, we're just focusing on those three words so much.

安迪·拉斯金：但我想我仍然觉得称之为类别和类别名称，我们只是专注于这三个词。

And what happens often is CEOs will, they'll kind of come up with this little category, like what happened with Nick at the 360Learning with collaborative learning.

经常发生的情况是，首席执行官们会提出这个小类别，就像尼克在 360Learning 的协作学习中发生的事情一样。

We have this name, but we don't know how to tell the story around it.

我们有这个名字，但我们不知道如何讲述它周围的故事。

So my feeling is like, well, let's focus on the story.

所以我的感觉是，好吧，让我们专注于故事吧。

So that's why I talk about strategic narrative and movement creation versus category creation.

这就是为什么我谈论战略叙事和运动创造与类别创造。

If someone decides that your movement is a category, great.

如果有人认为你的运动是一个类别，那就太好了。

Bonus.

奖金。

Lenny: I see.

莱尼：我明白了。

So essentially your approach is category can play a part of this, but there's a bigger question you have of what's the story, what's the movement, what are the obstacles and categories and element of that potentially?

所以本质上你的方法是类别可以在其中发挥一部分作用，但你有一个更大的问题，故事是什么，运动是什么，潜在的障碍、类别和元素是什么？

Andy Raskin: I mean, I almost see them as orthogonal, like with HubSpot.

Andy Raskin：我的意思是，我几乎将它们视为正交的，就像 HubSpot 一样。

HubSpot had this narrative around inbound.

HubSpot 围绕入站进行了这样的叙述。

It used to be just outbound stuff, now we're going to have inbound.

以前只有出境的东西，现在我们将有入境的东西。

And that wasn't really a category.

这并不是一个真正的类别。

Back then they were probably known as marketing automation.

当时它们可能被称为营销自动化。

Now they're probably known as CRM because they've broadened.

现在它们可能被称为 CRM，因为它们的范围已经扩大。

But this movement is the thing that's sort of the constant and in some ways orthogonal to whatever category they're in.

但这种运动是一种持续的现象，并且在某种程度上与它们所属的类别正交。

Lenny: Is the strategic narrative framework right for essentially any company or is there a sweet spot?

莱尼：战略叙事框架基本上适合任何公司吗？或者是否有一个最佳点？

And I've noticed most of the companies you've been talking about are B2B SaaS.

我注意到您所谈论的大多数公司都是 B2B SaaS。

So I don't know, maybe if there's a spectrum of perfect fit for strategic narrative framework and then not a fit at all.

所以我不知道，也许是否有一系列完美适合战略叙事框架的范围，然后根本不适合。

What's along that spectrum?

这个范围内有什么？

Andy Raskin: Yeah, well you can see, I mean it takes a little time to tell this story and you were kind of framing it a little bit and we're telling it in lots of different channels.

安迪·拉斯金：是的，你可以看到，我的意思是需要一点时间来讲述这个故事，你有点框架它，我们通过很多不同的渠道来讲述它。

So I think it does really play well in this enterprise sales context because also we have a group buyer there.

所以我认为它在企业销售环境中确实发挥了很好的作用，因为我们那里也有一个团体买家。

So it's not just one person who's doing some research.

所以不仅仅是一个人在做一些研究。

This whole group has to have a uniting story.

整个团队必须有一个团结的故事。

So I think you're right that in noticing that the companies that this tends to resonate with tend to be B2B, enterprise sales, technology I think because often the product is very complicated.

所以我认为你是对的，注意到这往往会引起共鸣的公司往往是 B2B、企业销售、技术公司，我认为因为产品通常非常复杂。

That arrogant doctor stuff comes from an age when the things people were selling were products on shelves that didn't change much, cans of soup at the supermarket or a car in a dealership.

这种傲慢的医生说法来自于那个时代，当时人们销售的东西是货架上没有太大变化的产品、超市里的罐装汤或经销店里的汽车。

Even software back then, shrink-wrapped in a box, doesn't change.

即使当时的软件，被收缩包装在盒子里，也没有改变。

Andy Raskin: B2B software, this stuff is changing by the minute.

Andy Raskin：B2B 软件，这个东西每时每刻都在变化。

And does it even make sense to make a claim to say, "Oh, we have these features and they have those features, therefore we're better," does that make any sense?

声称“哦，我们有这些功能，他们也有这些功能，因此我们更好”，这是否有意义？

That said, hey, I was looking for a sports watch, a Fitbit and I'm comparing specs and I'm doing all that stuff.

也就是说，嘿，我正在寻找一款运动手表、一款 Fitbit，我正在比较规格，我正在做所有这些事情。

And so that mode of buying is still happening, but I think, so yeah, when consumer products companies contact me, I usually say, "No." Occasionally they still say, "Okay, yeah, we'll build this, we still want to have this narrative." But yeah, I think it has the most value, most impactful right away for B2B enterprise technology companies.

因此，这种购买模式仍在发生，但我认为，是的，当消费品公司联系我时，我通常会说“不”。有时他们仍然会说，“好吧，是的，我们会构建这个，我们仍然想要这样的叙述。”但是，是的，我认为它对于 B2B 企业技术公司来说具有最大的价值、最具影响力。

Lenny: Just a few more questions.

莱尼：还有几个问题。

One is just what's a sign that you should spend time in this area, that something is broken in your strategic narrative story pitch?

一是什么迹象表明你应该花时间在这个领域，你的战略叙事故事宣传中有什么问题？

Andy Raskin: Well, I can tell you what I hear from CEOs when they contact me.

安迪·拉斯金：嗯，我可以告诉你当首席执行官联系我时我从他们那里听到的消息。

I always ask, what's happening?

我总是问，发生了什么事？

Because that idea I had, no CEO's going to budget a line item for this.

因为我有这个想法，所以没有首席执行官会为此制定预算。

I'm basically asking, why was I wrong?

我基本上是在问，为什么我错了？

So a few things they tell me, one is that the company is maturing from a point a stage where they've been successful, but that success is ...

他们告诉我一些事情，一是公司已经从他们成功的阶段走向成熟，但成功是......

one CEO put it this way, was brute force of the founders.

一位首席执行官这样说，这是创始人的蛮力。

So the founders are in every meeting, they're in every product discussion, every sales call, and that's shifting, the company's getting bigger.

因此，创始人参加了每次会议、每次产品讨论、每次销售电话，这种情况正在发生变化，公司正在变得越来越大。

Andy Raskin: Usually I'm seeing this around series B where the company is getting ...

Andy Raskin：通常我会在 B 轮融资中看到这种情况，公司正在获得......

so they can't be in every sales call, every market call and they're looking to transmit all the good stuff and some direction in a way that people are going to remember and all that.

因此，他们不可能出现在每一次销售拜访、每一次市场拜访中，他们希望以一种人们会记住的方式传达所有好的东西和一些方向。

Everything from how we pitch to what the product should be and all that, and they see this as that.

从我们如何推销到产品应该是什么等等，他们都这么认为。

Andy Raskin: There's another point that I see people contacting me at, which is where they're growing.

安迪·拉斯金：我看到人们在另一个地方联系我，这就是他们成长的地方。

It's usually a bit later where they've scaled tremendously successfully.

通常要晚一点，他们才会取得巨大的成功。

Now we're either acquiring or building out whole new product units.

现在我们要么收购要么建立全新的产品单元。

And that old story we told is just, it's just not big enough and we got to expand it to something bigger.

我们讲的那个老故事只是，它还不够大，我们必须将其扩展到更大的东西。

This is the example of OneTrust, which the CEO I had on my podcast recently.

这是 OneTrust 的例子，我最近在播客上看到了该公司的首席执行官。

Starts out with just, I think it's data privacy around the regulations that people have to be able to say, "Don't track me," things like that.

首先，我认为这是围绕法规的数据隐私，人们必须能够说“不要跟踪我”之类的事情。

And then they buy these other company and now we have this much bigger offering.

然后他们收购了其他公司，现在我们提供了更大的产品。

So how do we tell the story?

那么我们如何讲这个故事呢？

And then I guess the third one is some form of pivot where hey, we were telling an old story but whatever, the market changed or whatever and we want to go in a different direction.

然后我想第三个是某种形式的支点，嘿，我们正在讲一个老故事，但无论如何，市场发生了变化或其他什么，我们想要朝不同的方向前进。

Lenny: Say a founders listening to this and they're like, "Okay, I realize I need to do this.

莱尼：假设创始人听到这个，他们会说，“好吧，我意识到我需要这样做。

I haven't spent enough time on this.

我还没有花足够的时间在这上面。

Something's not working.

有什么东西不工作了。

This could be a huge unlock for us." What are the first couple steps they could take to start to figure this out?

这对我们来说可能是一个巨大的解锁。”他们首先可以采取哪些步骤来解决这个问题？

And I imagine at some point it's like, go talk to Andy.

我想在某个时候，就像是去和安迪谈谈。

He'll help you through this.

他会帮助你解决这个问题。

Is there stuff you can do on your own?

有什么事情可以自己做吗？

How do you go about figuring this out?

你如何解决这个问题？

Andy Raskin: Well, a lot of folks have emailed me over the years like, well I told you before, there were some who emailed me like, "Hey, tried it, didn't work." But many more have emailed me, "Hey, I tried it, it did work.

安迪·拉斯金：多年来，很多人给我发电子邮件，我之前告诉过你，有些人给我发电子邮件，比如“嘿，尝试过，没用。”但更多人给我发电子邮件说：“嘿，我试过了，确实有效。

Thank you." And so yeah, just try to lay out that structure and try it mean even when I work with teams, I adapt what people might call sort of lean approach.

谢谢。”所以，是的，只是尝试布置这种结构，并尝试这意味着即使我与团队合作，我也会采用人们所谓的精益方法。

I want to get that thing out there into sales calls.

我想把这个东西放到销售电话中。

We're not rolling it out to the whole sales team right away, but getting it out into some sales calls and get a sense, "Hey, is this resonating?

我们不会立即将其推广给整个销售团队，而是将其推广到一些销售电话中，并感受一下，“嘿，这能引起共鸣吗？

Are people given the nods?"

人们都点头了吗？”

Andy Raskin: Ideally by the way, one way I look to test it, is it working, is when we talk about this shift and the stakes and do they stick.

安迪·拉斯金：顺便说一句，理想情况下，我想测试它是否有效的一种方法是，当我们谈论这种转变和利害关系时，它们是否会坚持下去。

Do they kind of say, "Yeah, let me tell you how that's playing out for us,"?

他们是否会说：“是的，让我告诉你我们的情况如何”？

Or, "Am I?

或者，“我是吗？

Yes, I'm seeing that." Sometimes I'll literally, I'll train salespeople to ask them that question, like, "Am I crazy or are you seeing this?" And what do they say?

是的，我看到了。”有时我会训练销售人员问他们这个问题，比如，“我疯了还是你看到了这个？”他们会说什么？

And you can usually tell if they're in and it's qualitative.

你通常可以判断它们是否在其中并且是定性的。

But I really like that kind of testing to see if it's working.

但我真的很喜欢这种测试，看看它是否有效。

And I think anybody can do that.

我认为任何人都可以做到这一点。

Lenny: Is there a template or guide you have online for folks to follow other than maybe just listening to this podcast and reading?

莱尼：除了听这个播客和阅读之外，您在网上是否有一个模板或指南可供人们遵循？

Is there a post that's like, "Here's the framework defined, and go follow these steps,"?

有没有类似“这是定义的框架，然后按照这些步骤操作”的帖子？

Andy Raskin: I mean, I guess the closest is that The Greatest Sales Deck I've Ever Seen post, which is the Zuora deck.

安迪·拉斯金（Andy Raskin）：我的意思是，我想最接近的是我见过的“最伟大的销售甲板”帖子，即 Zuora 甲板。

But even there, people have asked me for a framework and presentation companies say, "Can we have your template so we could make it available to people?

但即便如此，人们还是向我索要一个框架，演示公司说：“我们可以拥有您的模板，以便我们可以将其提供给人们吗？

We'll revenue share with you or something." And I am so against this template.

我们会与你分享收入之类的。”我非常反对这个模板。

Every team I work with, it's different.

我合作过的每个团队都是不同的。

It's not the same number of slides.

这不是相同数量的幻灯片。

Sometimes we can lay out this shift in one slide, sometimes it just feels better or the team likes it better, whatever, if it's a few and we're sort of getting people into it.

有时我们可以在一张幻灯片中展示这种转变，有时它只是感觉更好或者团队更喜欢它，无论如何，如果它是少数并且我们正在让人们参与其中。

Sometimes there's no slides.

有时没有幻灯片。

So I am really hesitant to recommend any template.

所以我真的很犹豫是否推荐任何模板。

And what I'd say is these are principles for building it, not any prescribed formula.

我想说的是，这些是构建它的原则，而不是任何规定的公式。

Lenny: If they do want to reach out to you while we're on this topic, what's the best way to contact you?

莱尼：如果他们确实想在我们讨论这个话题时联系您，那么联系您的最佳方式是什么？

Andy Raskin: Connect with me on LinkedIn.

Andy Raskin：通过 LinkedIn 与我联系。

That's usually a good one.

这通常是一件好事。

And I'm usually posting things on LinkedIn that I've learned from working with other teams.

我通常会在 LinkedIn 上发布我从与其他团队合作中学到的东西。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Last question before we get to a very exciting lightning round.

在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前的最后一个问题。

Speaking of LinkedIn, you posted how in a working session with companies that the second session is always this low point they all go through and that everyone's starting to get discouraged and pained.

说到LinkedIn，您在与公司的工作会议中发布了如何在第二次会议中总是经历他们都经历的低谷，并且每个人都开始感到沮丧和痛苦。

And first of all, I love the expectation setting.

首先，我喜欢这种期望设定。

You're like, "This is going to suck initially and it'll get better." Why is that the low point and what is it that they focus on in that second session?

你会说，“一开始会很糟糕，但会变得更好。”为什么这是最低点？他们在第二次会议上关注的焦点是什么？

Andy Raskin: Well, apparently I'm not doing enough of an expectation setting, because what that post was about was this woman.

安迪·拉斯金：嗯，显然我没有做足够的期望设置，因为那篇文章是关于这个女人的。

So when I work with a CEO I always ask them to create what I call a strategic narrative team of up to four people.

因此，当我与首席执行官合作时，我总是要求他们创建一个最多四人的战略叙事团队。

And usually those are leads of marketing, sales, whatever.

通常这些是营销、销售等方面的领导。

In this case, the CFO was a really important person in this company.

在这种情况下，首席财务官是这家公司非常重要的人物。

And so the CEO wanted her as part of this team.

因此首席执行官希望她成为这个团队的一员。

And she said to me at the end, she's like, "I love where we got to." I always ask, "What worked?

她最后对我说，“我喜欢我们现在的处境。”我总是问：“什么有效？

What didn't work?" And she's like, "I love where we got to.

什么不起作用？”她说，“我喜欢我们现在的处境。

That worked great.

效果很好。

What didn't work was like, you told us that this second session was going to be bad, but I think you could have drilled home more like exactly how bad."

不起作用的是，你告诉我们第二节课会很糟糕，但我认为你可以更多地训练回家，就像到底有多糟糕一样。”

Andy Raskin: And then I asked her, "Actually, could I have that quote with your face on a slide that I now present to future teams?" She said, "Yeah, you could do that." So the way I work it is I have a kickoff session where essentially I'm asking people on the team, what are these pieces?

安迪·拉斯金：然后我问她，“实际上，我可以在我现在向未来团队展示的幻灯片上引用您的头像吗？”她说：“是的，你可以这么做。”所以我的工作方式是召开一个启动会议，本质上我会问团队中的人，这些部分是什么？

What is this old game, new game shift?

这个老游戏、新游戏的转变是什么？

How do we talk about when to set the stakes and everything I just took you through?

我们如何谈论何时设定赌注以及我刚刚带您经历的一切？

And we have like five people in the room.

我们房间里大约有五个人。

There's going to be ...

将会有...

we're going to come out of this with notes and notes, boards and boards of ideas of this stuff.

我们将通过笔记、笔记、板子和这些东西的想法板来结束这个过程。

Andy Raskin: And so then two things happen.

安迪·拉斯金：然后发生了两件事。

One is I ask the team to start interviewing customers about how they see this shift and sometimes the customers will literally give us the words and that can be helpful in sort of aligning if we have differences.

一是我要求团队开始采访客户，了解他们如何看待这种转变，有时客户会直接告诉我们这些话，如果我们有分歧，这可能有助于协调一致。

But I also start working with the CEO one-on-one and we build a first version of this thing, and it's the second session where we present this first version to the team and think about what's happening.

但我也开始与首席执行官一对一地合作，我们构建了这个东西的第一个版本，这是我们向团队展示第一个版本并思考正在发生的事情的第二次会议。

Andy Raskin: The team has just given us millions of gold ideas, truly they're all ...

安迪·拉斯金：团队刚刚给了我们数百万个黄金创意，真的，它们都是......

and in order to make something sort of clean and powerful, the CO and I have had to pretty much throw out all of them, save one or two.

为了制造出某种干净而强大的东西，CO和我不得不扔掉所有这些，只保留一两个。

And there's going to be feelings about that, first of all.

首先，人们对此会有感觉。

Second of all, if this were easy to just get all ...

其次，如果这很容易得到所有......

interview everybody, come up with it, they would've done it.

采访每个人，想出办法，他们会做到的。

So it's going to be wrong.

所以它会出错。

Andy Raskin: But the good news is this is where the team gets to weigh in.

安迪·拉斯金：但好消息是，这是团队发挥作用的地方。

I also ask, what's working, not working in this thing?

我还想问，这件事中什么有效，什么无效？

And when we learn how it's not working, that gives us the juice to then me and the CEO go back to the drawing board.

当我们了解到它为何不起作用时，这给了我们动力，让我和首席执行官重新开始设计。

We plan on this in advance, we're going to go back to the drawing board and then bring up something good.

我们提前计划好这一点，我们将回到绘图板，然后提出一些好的东西。

So having a shit draft is a million times more valuable than having all these great ideas.

因此，拥有一份糟糕的草稿比拥有所有这些伟大的想法更有价值一百万倍。

But it's also really painful.

但这也确实很痛苦。

It's painful not only for them, but for me.

这不仅对他们来说是痛苦的，对我也是如此。

No matter how many times I say this, I expect they're going to love it in that first one too.

无论我说多少遍，我希望他们在第一次说的时候也会喜欢它。

And I'm really pissed off when they don't.

当他们不这样做时我真的很生气。

But luckily now I've done enough times I know that's going to happen.

但幸运的是，现在我已经做了足够多的次了，我知道这将会发生。

Lenny: I was just watching a documentary about Annie Lamont who came up with the first draft concept for writers that I stick to.

莱尼：我刚刚看了一部关于安妮·拉蒙特的纪录片，她为我坚持的作家提出了初稿概念。

Andy Raskin: I'm a firm believer in that.

安迪·拉斯金：我坚信这一点。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny: As you're talking, one last thought that I had is, so you'd work with because and founders.

莱尼：正如你所说，我最后一个想法是，所以你应该与因为和创始人一起工作。

I feel like this could be just as useful to product leaders, product managers working on a product that they're launching, just like what is the movement, where it's happening, here's why this product's important.

我觉得这对产品领导者、开发他们正在推出的产品的产品经理同样有用，就像运动是什么、它发生在哪里，这就是为什么这个产品很重要。

Do you find that too?

你也发现了吗？

Andy Raskin: Absolutely.

安迪·拉斯金：当然。

And very frequently, the product leader, chief product officer is part of this group.

产品负责人、首席产品官经常属于这个群体。

What I'd say though is that the reason ...

但我要说的是，原因是...

so after I did this work for a few years, I looked back and I was like, which were the engagements I did where I can see it, and the narrative is really this true north star for everything?

所以在我做了几年这项工作之后，我回头看，我想，我在我能看到的地方做了哪些约定，而故事真的是一切的真正北极星吗？

Andy Raskin: It was always the ones where the CEO was leading it, not just in name, but literally the person who called me who was working on the drafts with me and going through.

安迪·拉斯金（Andy Raskin）：总是由首席执行官领导，不仅仅是名义上的，而是真正打电话给我的人，他正在与我一起起草草案并进行审核。

And so initially I didn't insist that it would be the CEO doing that, but eventually I started to, and I think even for a product leader, you're going to want the support.

因此，最初我并没有坚持认为应该由首席执行官来做这件事，但最终我开始这样做，而且我认为即使对于产品负责人来说，你也会需要支持。

You don't want to be just telling that story in product.

您不想只是在产品中讲述这个故事。

You're going to want that supported from this Zuora person who gave me the initial deck, he said it, "It was like I had air cover and I was just going down and knocking down deals on the ground." You're going to want that air cover in marketing, sales, recruiting, everything.

你会希望得到祖拉人的支持，他给了我最初的套牌，他说，“就像我有空中掩护，我只是下去并在地面上敲定交易。”你会希望在营销、销售、招聘等各个方面都有空中掩护。

And how much better is it if it's really driven by the CEO and you have that?

如果它真的是由首席执行官推动的，而且你也做到了，那该多好啊？

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Is there anything else you wanted to touch on or you want to share before we get to our very exciting lighting round?

在我们开始激动人心的灯光回合之前，您还有什么想谈或想分享的吗？

Andy Raskin: No, except I love category design people and it's really just sort of terms that I like that are ...

安迪·拉斯金（Andy Raskin）：不，除了我喜欢类别设计人员，而且我确实喜欢这样的术语......

you know what?

你知道吗？

Forget it.

算了。

Scratch that part.

刮掉那部分。

Andy Raskin: Oh yeah.

安迪·拉斯金：哦，是的。

Okay.

好的。

Yeah, we could leave it in.

是的，我们可以把它留在里面。

We could leave it in.

我们可以把它留在里面。

You could even leave this in where I'm telling you to scratch it.

你甚至可以把它留在我告诉你刮擦的地方。

Lenny: Sounds good.

莱尼：听起来不错。

I was actually going to joke that I was going to cut this out and leave you hanging, but okay.

我本来想开玩笑说我要把这个剪掉然后让你悬着，但是好吧。

Andy Raskin: No, you can do that.

安迪·拉斯金：不，你可以这么做。

Yeah.

是的。

Category design people.

类别设计人。

Love you.

爱你。

Don't hate me.

别恨我。

Thank you.

谢谢你。

Lenny: Great.

莱尼：太好了。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

We're going to be okay, I think.

我想我们会没事的。

Well, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

好了，至此，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got five questions for you.

我有五个问题要问你。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Andy Raskin: I'm ready.

安迪·拉斯金：我准备好了。

I saw like what you sent them, but I didn't really look at them, so I'm just going to tell you what I said.

我看到了你发给他们的内容，但我没有真正看过它们，所以我只是告诉你我说的话。

I'll go off that.

我会停止那个。

Lenny: Perfect.

莱尼：完美。

Excellent.

太棒了。

The best version of this.

这是最好的版本。

What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Andy Raskin: One of the books that I read initially from that Barnes & Noble, it was Story by Robert McKee.

安迪·拉斯金：我最初从巴诺书店读到的一本书是罗伯特·麦基的《故事》。

I think a lot of people know about it who are sort of interested in story stuff, but it's kind of a Bible of people who are doing screenwriting and stuff.

我想很多对故事感兴趣的人都知道这本书，但它就像是编剧之类的人的圣经。

If anyone who's in Hollywood who thought about going to Hollywood, they know about this book.

如果任何在好莱坞想要去好莱坞的人，他们都会知道这本书。

I love a book called Out of Sheer Rage.

我喜欢一本叫做《出于纯粹的愤怒》的书。

It's really not about what I do or anything, but the author is Geoff Dyer.

这实际上与我做了什么或其他什么无关，但作者是杰夫·戴尔。

Geoff, he's written a lot of books that are kind of essay memoir, and this is a book about him trying to write a book about DH Lawrence.

杰夫，他写了很多散文回忆录的书，这本书是关于他试图写一本关于 DH 劳伦斯的书的。

So it's all about procrastinating and like, "Oh, I'm supposed to write this book.

所以这都是关于拖延，就像，“哦，我应该写这本书。

I'm about to go on a trip somewhere.

我要去一个地方旅行。

Should I bring the collected works of DH Lawrence with me on the trip because that'll help me start the book, but maybe I shouldn't because it's not going to ...

我是否应该在旅途中携带 DH 劳伦斯的文集，因为这会帮助我开始这本书，但也许我不应该，因为它不会......

Then I could come back refreshed without having ..." Basically, it's all that.

然后我就可以精神焕发地回来，而不必……”基本上就是这样。

It's this sort of in the head.

脑子里就是这样的。

I just really enjoy that book.

我真的很喜欢那本书。

Lenny: What's a favorite recent movie or TV show that you really enjoyed?

莱尼：你最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Andy Raskin: Station 11.

安迪·拉斯金：11 号车站。

Station 11.

11号站。

That was just so beautiful to me.

这对我来说真是太美丽了。

Lenny: Trippy.

莱尼：迷幻。

That was a trippy movie.

那是一部迷幻电影。

Did not expect to go where it went.

没想到走到哪里就到哪里。

I usually ask what's a favorite interview question you like to ask, and I don't know how often you're interviewing people, but does anything come to mind when I ask that?

我通常会问你最喜欢问的面试问题是什么，我不知道你面试别人的频率是多少，但是当我问这个问题时，你会想到什么吗？

Andy Raskin: Well, I can tell you one thing I ask when I speak with CEOs is I like to ask, what role has this narrative played in your leadership?

安迪·拉斯金：嗯，我可以告诉你，当我与首席执行官交谈时，我想问的一件事是，这种叙述在你的领导力中发挥了什么作用？

How does it work in your leadership?

它在你的领导中是如何发挥作用的？

And it's always really interesting for me to hear that, 'cause I often hear things that I don't expect.

听到这些对我来说总是很有趣，因为我经常听到一些意想不到的事情。

Lenny: What's a favorite product you've recently discovered that you just really like?

莱尼：您最近发现的最喜欢且真正喜欢的产品是什么？

Andy Raskin: I recently got a Fitbit.

Andy Raskin：我最近买了一个 Fitbit。

I think I may have mentioned it earlier.

我想我可能之前已经提到过。

I was looking for a product like that, and so far I'm really loving it.

我一直在寻找这样的产品，到目前为止我真的很喜欢它。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Have you tried other versions of Fitbits or that's the one that's working?

您是否尝试过其他版本的 Fitbits，或者当前版本有效？

Andy Raskin: I also ordered a Polar at the same time and wound up returning the Polar.

Andy Raskin：我同时还订购了一台 Polar，最后退回了 Polar。

Basically, it was just a little clunkier on my wrist, so I went with a Fitbit.

基本上，它戴在我的手腕上有点笨重，所以我选择了 Fitbit。

Well, do you have one that you recommend instead?

那么，您有推荐的吗？

Lenny: I just have the Apple Watch and I've never tried a Fitbit and it gives me all this stuff that seems cool, but I've never gone further.

Lenny：我只有 Apple Watch，从未尝试过 Fitbit，它为我提供了所有看起来很酷的东西，但我从未走得更远。

Andy Raskin: I got the Fitbit like a week ago and I actually still am on the fence whether I bring it back to return it for the Apple Watch, so I'm enjoying it, but we'll see.

Andy Raskin：我一周前收到了 Fitbit，实际上我还在犹豫是否要把它带回来换回 Apple Watch，所以我很享受它，但我们会拭目以待。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Final question.

最后一个问题。

You're expert on presentations and I imagine you spend a lot of time in decks, and so just what's like one small change people can make to how they put together a deck or a presentation that will make their presentation a lot better?

您是演示方面的专家，我想您会在演示文稿上花费大量时间，那么人们可以对如何组合演示文稿或演示文稿做出一个小小的改变，从而使他们的演示文稿变得更好吗？

Andy Raskin: This is the one thing, make the title the takeaway of the slide so that the person looking at it has to do zero work to take away.

安迪·拉斯金：这是一件事，让标题成为幻灯片的要点，这样观看它的人就必须做零工作才能拿走。

So example, you'll sometimes see, "The problem," or, "The team." Replace, "The team," with, "Our team is veterans of whatever industry," or every single slide it's a takeaway, not a label.

例如，您有时会看到“问题”或“团队”。将“团队”替换为“我们的团队是各个行业的资深人士”，或者每张幻灯片都是外卖，而不是标签。

It'll make everything flow a lot better.

它会让一切变得更好。

Lenny: You did a killer job answering the lightning round questions without having a peek at what they were going to be.

莱尼：你在回答闪电般的问题时做得非常出色，却没有看到它们将是什么。

Andy, this was incredibly insightful.

安迪，这是非常有洞察力的。

I'm going to go start working on my strategic narrative for my podcast and newsletter.

我将开始为我的播客和时事通讯撰写战略叙述。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out, learn more, maybe consider working with you?

如果人们想要联系、了解更多信息或者考虑与您合作，可以在哪里找到您？

And then how can listeners be useful to you?

那么听众如何对你有用呢？

Andy Raskin: So I mentioned LinkedIn as a way to connect with me.

安迪·拉斯金：所以我提到 LinkedIn 作为与我联系的一种方式。

That's fine.

没关系。

My website is AndyRaskin.com.

我的网站是 AndyRaskin.com。

I also have a podcast where I talk with CEOs, so if you're interested in hearing more details about actual use of this, it's called The Bigger Narrative.

我还有一个播客，我可以在其中与首席执行官交谈，因此，如果您有兴趣了解有关其实际使用的更多详细信息，它称为“更大的叙述”。

My mom introduces every episode.

我妈妈介绍每一集。

I sent her the interviews in advance.

我提前把采访发给她了。

I call her and interview about what she thinks people will get out of it, and that conversation becomes the intro to the podcast episode.

我打电话给她并采访她认为人们会从中得到什么，这次谈话成为播客剧集的介绍。

And what was the last question?

最后一个问题是什么？

Lenny: How can listeners be useful to you?

莱尼：听众对你有何用处？

Andy Raskin: Useful to me.

安迪·拉斯金：对我有用。

Just if you try any of this stuff, let me know.

如果你尝试这些东西，请告诉我。

Like, "Hey, worked.

就像，“嘿，工作了。

Didn't work.

没用。

Have this question." I would love to hear that stuff.

有这个问题。”我很想听听这个问题。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Andy, thank you again for being here.

安迪，再次感谢你来到这里。

Andy Raskin: Thanks so much for having me, Lenny.

安迪·拉斯金：非常感谢你邀请我，莱尼。

This is really fun.

这真的很有趣。

Lenny: Bye everyone.

莱尼：大家再见。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at LennysPodcast.com.

您可以在 LennysPodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。