When enough is enough | Andy Johns (ex-FB, Twitter, Quora)

Andy Johns: There are day-to-day stresses that are normal and we just have to put up with, but then there's the other stuff that's the flashing red alarm.

安迪·约翰斯：日常压力是正常的，我们只需要忍受，但还有其他事情，那就是闪烁的红色警报。

Again, you can go back to animals.

同样，你可以回到动物身上。

It's like when their fundamental functions, when their core behaviors of diet, exercise, playfulness, socialization, sleep, when those things get disrupted, it's a sign that there is something going on here that you need to take a look at.

就像当他们的基本功能，当他们的饮食、锻炼、玩耍、社交、睡眠等核心行为被扰乱时，这就是一个迹象，表明这里正在发生一些事情，你需要注意一下。

Andy Johns: So the same is true with people.

安迪·琼斯：人也是如此。

If your sleep always sucks, if your relationships are constantly strained or frequently strained, if your physical health is failing, there's so many ways that that can be measured.

如果你的睡眠总是很糟糕，如果你的人际关系持续紧张或经常紧张，如果你的身体健康状况不佳，有很多方法可以衡量。

So there's really no excuse for that to say, "Oh, I just didn't know." I'd say it's to look at those things.

所以真的没有理由说“哦，我只是不知道”。我想说的是看看这些东西。

When those are suffering or when they're really out of whack, it's undeniable that there is something that is detrimental to your wellbeing that's going on right now, and your body is telling you, "Stop.

当这些正在遭受痛苦或当他们真的不正常时，不可否认的是，现在正在发生一些对您的健康有害的事情，并且您的身体会告诉您：“停下来。

Something needs to change."

有些事情需要改变。”

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast, where interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard won experiences building and growing today's most successful products.

Lenny：欢迎来到 Lenny 的播客，在这里采访世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，从他们构建和发展当今最成功产品的来之不易的经验中学习。

Today, my guest is Andy Johns.

今天，我的客人是安迪·琼斯。

This is going to be a very different type of episode and maybe the most meaningful and important episode of the podcast.

这将是一个非常不同类型的剧集，并且可能是播客中最有意义和最重要的一集。

Lenny: Andy was a legendary product and growth leader at Facebook, Twitter, Quora, and Wealthfront, where he was VP of Growth and VP of Product, and then President, and as you'll hear, was in line to be CEO of Wealthfront until he came to realize that this path was not right for him.

Lenny：Andy 是 Facebook、Twitter、Quora 和 Wealthfront 的传奇产品和增长领导者，他曾担任增长副总裁和产品副总裁，然后担任总裁，正如您将听到的，他本来有望成为 Wealthfront 的首席执行官，直到他意识到这条道路不适合他。

After a lot of internal reflection and hard self-work, he changed his entire life's path to becoming a mental health advocate and helping burned out high achievers and also veterans with their mental health journey.

经过大量的内心反思和艰苦的自我努力，他改变了自己的一生，成为一名心理健康倡导者，并帮助那些精疲力竭的成功人士和退伍军人完成他们的心理健康之旅。

Lenny: In our conversation, Andy shares his personal story, what true burnout looks like, and when you should pay attention to your mental health.

莱尼：在我们的谈话中，安迪分享了他的个人故事、真正的倦怠是什么样子，以及何时应该注意自己的心理健康。

Talks about the process of deep personal transformation and the four steps involved in making lasting change in your life.

谈论深刻的个人转变的过程以及在你的生活中做出持久改变所涉及的四个步骤。

He also shares how to actually allow change to happen in your life, tactics for moving down this path, and a lot of advice and real talk on mental health and tech.

他还分享了如何真正让生活发生改变、沿着这条道路前进的策略，以及关于心理健康和技术的大量建议和真实的谈话。

Lenny: There's a lot of struggle happening in the world right now, including in tech, and so I hope this conversation helps you with your own journey.

莱尼：现在世界上正在发生很多困难，包括在科技领域，所以我希望这次谈话对你自己的旅程有所帮助。

You can check out Andy's work at Clues.Life.

您可以在 Clues.Life 查看 Andy 的作品。

With that, I bring you Andy Johns after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了安迪·约翰斯 (Andy Johns)。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Mercury, who I also happen to use for my business checking account.

莱尼：这一集是由 Mercury 为您带来的，我也恰好将其用于我的商业支票帐户。

I've tried a lot of business banks and there is nothing even close to the experience you get with Mercury.

我尝试过很多商业银行，但没有任何一家银行的体验能与 Mercury 的体验相媲美。

I moved cash over from another bank and it literally took less than half an hour to set up the account and wire money over at no cost.

我从另一家银行转入现金，实际上只花了不到半个小时就开设了账户并免费电汇资金。

They make you want to use the site more often, which I had never felt with another banking site.

它们让您想要更频繁地使用该网站，这是我在其他银行网站上从未有过的感觉。

Mercury is banking engineered for the startup journey, a modern solution to help your company become the best version of itself.

Mercury 是专为创业之旅而设计的银行业务，是一种现代解决方案，可帮助您的公司成为最好的公司。

Lenny: Mercury isn't just a place to hold and send money.

Lenny：水星不仅仅是一个存放和汇款的地方。

It's software built to help you scale with safety and stability, whether you're a team of two or a team of a thousand.

它的软件旨在帮助您安全稳定地扩展，无论您是两人团队还是千人团队。

Mercury also goes beyond banking to provide you with access to the foremost investors, operators, and tools.

Mercury 还超越了银行业务，为您提供接触最重要的投资者、运营商和工具的机会。

Visit mercury.com to join over 100,000 startups on Mercury, the powerful and intuitive way for ambitious companies to bank.

访问mercury.com，加入 Mercury 上超过 100,000 家初创公司的行列，这是雄心勃勃的公司进行银行业务的强大而直观的方式。

Mercury is a financial technology company, not a bank.

Mercury 是一家金融科技公司，而不是银行。

Banking services provided by Choice Financial Group and Evolve Bank & Trust.

由 Choice Financial Group 和 Evolve Bank & Trust 提供的银行服务。

Members FDIC.

联邦存款保险公司成员。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Coda.

莱尼：这一集是由 Coda 为您带来的。

You've heard me talk about how Coda is the doc that brings it all together, and how can it help your team run smoother and be more efficient.

您已经听过我谈论 Coda 是如何将所有内容整合在一起的文档，以及它如何帮助您的团队运行得更顺畅、更高效。

I know this firsthand because Coda does that for me.

我直接知道这一点，因为 Coda 为我做到了这一点。

I use Coda every day to wrangle my newsletter content calendar, my interview notes for podcasts, and to coordinate my sponsors.

我每天都使用 Coda 来整理我的时事通讯内容日历、播客采访笔记，并协调我的赞助商。

More recently, I actually wrote a whole post on how Coda's product team operates, and within that post, they shared a dozen templates that they use internally to run their product team, including managing the roadmap, their OKR process, getting internal feedback, and essentially their whole product development process is done within Coda.

最近，我实际上写了一篇关于 Coda 产品团队如何运作的整篇文章，在这篇文章中，他们分享了十几个内部用来运行产品团队的模板，包括管理路线图、OKR 流程、获取内部反馈，基本上他们的整个产品开发流程都是在 Coda 内完成的。

Lenny: If your team's work is spread out across different documents and spreadsheets and a stack of workflow tools, that's why you need Coda.

Lenny：如果您团队的工作分散在不同的文档、电子表格和一堆工作流程工具中，那么您就需要 Coda。

Coda puts data in one centralized location regardless of format, eliminating roadblocks that can slow your team down.

Coda 将数据放在一个集中位置，无论其格式如何，消除了可能拖慢团队速度的障碍。

Coda allows your team to operate on the same information and collaborate in one place.

Coda 允许您的团队在一个地方处理相同的信息并进行协作。

Take advantage of this special limited time offer just for startups.

利用这一专为初创公司提供的特殊限时优惠。

Plan up today at coda.io/lenny and get a thousand dollars starter credit on your first statement.

立即在 coda.io/lenny 上进行计划，并在您的第一份账单上获得 1000 美元的启动信用额。

That's C-O-D-A dot I-O slash Lenny to sign up and get a startup credit of $1,000, coda.io/lenny.

这是 C-O-D-A 点 I-O 斜线 Lenny 注册并获得 1,000 美元的启动信用，coda.io/lenny。

Lenny: Andy, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

莱尼：安迪，非常感谢你来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Andy Johns: Thanks, Lenny.

安迪·琼斯：谢谢，莱尼。

Happy to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Lenny: So I've been both looking forward to our conversation, but I've also been dreading it a little bit because I know it's going to be incredibly valuable, but I also think it's going to get very heavy, and I think it's important to get heavy sometimes, especially with the stuff we're going to be talking about, but just wanted to share that.

莱尼：所以我一直期待着我们的谈话，但我也有点害怕它，因为我知道它会非常有价值，但我也认为它会变得非常沉重，我认为有时变得沉重很重要，特别是对于我们要谈论的东西，但只是想分享这一点。

Andy Johns: Yeah, and I'm looking forward to that.

安迪·琼斯：是的，我很期待这一点。

I think one of the things that has been a change for me over the last several years is that I prefer to move forward in my life being completely honest with who I am, not hiding any aspects of myself, including the stuff that in the past I'd be afraid to share.

我认为过去几年对我来说发生的变化之一是，我更愿意在生活中完全诚实地面对自己，不隐藏自己的任何方面，包括过去我不敢分享的东西。

Lenny: Well, on that topic, I'd love for you to just walk us through the path that you've taken.

莱尼：嗯，关于这个话题，我希望你能带领我们走过你走过的路。

Basically, you're like me in a sense.

基本上，从某种意义上来说，你就像我一样。

You're helping companies build product, drive growth, worked with some of the best companies in the world, and then things took a turn.

你帮助公司开发产品，推动增长，与世界上一些最好的公司合作，然后事情发生了转变。

So could you just start with a brief overview of what happened?

那么您能否先简要概述一下所发生的事情？

Andy Johns: Sure.

安迪·琼斯：当然。

So the short background is I spent about 17 years working in the world of startups.

简而言之，我在初创公司工作了大约 17 年。

I think on the whole, it was a successful experience.

我认为总的来说，这是一次成功的经历。

I managed to land at a handful of really good companies and had a great experience, but along the way, despite having built somewhat of an impressive resume, I guess you could say, I was also struggling quite a bit in terms of my emotional, psychological, and spiritual health.

我成功地进入了几家非常优秀的公司，并获得了一段很棒的经历，但一路走来，尽管我已经建立了一些令人印象深刻的简历，我想你可以说，我在情感、心理和精神健康方面也遇到了很大的困难。

So in some ways, it feels like the cliche that as my career reached its pinnacle, that from a professional, from a financial perspective, I was at my highest, but when it came to other aspects of my life, I was arguably at my lowest or close to my lowest.

因此，在某些方面，这感觉就像是陈词滥调，当我的职业生涯达到顶峰时，从专业人士、财务角度来看，我正处于最高点，但当涉及到我生活的其他方面时，我可以说处于最低点或接近最低点。

Andy Johns: So even though I had those successes, there was a lot that I needed to work through that was under the hood, which I eventually came to understand very, very deeply as a result of turning inward and doing a lot of work on my own path towards self-understanding and healing some deep emotional wounds.

安迪·约翰斯：所以，尽管我取得了这些成功，但在幕后我还有很多需要解决的问题，由于我转向内心并在自己的自我理解和治愈一些深刻的情感创伤的道路上做了很多工作，我最终非常非常深刻地理解了这些。

Lenny: In a post that you worked on for my newsletter back in the day, you shared this story of, I think maybe it was at Wealthfront where you were giving a big presentation.

Lenny：在您当天为我的时事通讯撰写的一篇文章中，您分享了这个故事，我想也许是在 Wealthfront 上您进行了一次大型演讲。

Maybe share that story?

也许分享这个故事？

Andy Johns: Sure.

安迪·琼斯：当然。

I can share that.

我可以分享这一点。

It actually goes back to ...

它实际上可以追溯到...

This is 2010.

这是2010年。

I was at Twitter at the time.

我当时在推特。

I was in my late 20s.

我当时20多岁。

Again, my career was going really well.

再说一遍，我的职业生涯进展顺利。

I was starting to string together a series of successful experiences, and I was suddenly hit with near constant panic, panic attacks, depression.

我开始把一系列成功的经历串起来，突然间我陷入了几乎持续不断的恐慌、惊恐发作和抑郁之中。

I was having a very, very difficult time sleeping and just managing my emotions as a whole.

我的睡眠和管理情绪都非常困难。

It got to the point to where there were several occasions while I was at work where I could tell that I was about ready to have a breakdown of sorts, and I would just grab my laptop, throw it in my bag, and pretty quietly just walk out of the office even if it was 10:00 AM and I'd only been there for an hour or two.

甚至在我工作的时候，有几次我感觉自己快要崩溃了，我会抓起笔记本电脑，把它扔进包里，然后安静地走出办公室，即使当时是上午 10:00，而且我只在那里待了一两个小时。

That happened on multiple occasions.

这种情况发生过多次。

Andy Johns: There were some occasions in which I was set up to go and speak to the entire company during an all-hands session, and it was something where I just had to come up with an excuse and bow out of it because at the time, I was already completely overcome and overwhelmed by this near constant panic I was experiencing, but I had a really good poker face, I don't think most people could see it.

安迪·约翰斯：在某些情况下，我被安排在全体会议期间向整个公司讲话，而我只需要想出一个借口然后退出，因为当时我已经完全被我所经历的这种近乎持续的恐慌所克服和压倒，但我的扑克脸非常好，我认为大多数人都看不到这一点。

Andy Johns: To give a little bit of an explanation and to tie first question together with this, there were two major things that contributed to me having a pretty acute case of burnout and needing to step away from my career as I knew it.

安迪·约翰斯：稍微解释一下，并将第一个问题与此联系起来，有两件主要的事情导致我出现了非常严重的倦怠情况，并且需要放弃我所知道的职业生涯。

The first was just the slow and steady accumulation of the pressure, the stresses, the anxieties, the emotional ups and downs that came from having such a strong commitment to my career, and frankly an addiction to achievement as a way to feel good and to feel whole, but I was so focused on my work that I had slowly become the frog that was boiling in the pot, the typical analogy of you don't realize how bad things are getting because it's happening to you slowly until it happens quickly, right?

第一个是压力、压力、焦虑、情绪起伏的缓慢而稳定的积累，这些都来自对我的职业如此坚定的承诺，坦率地说，我对成就上瘾，以此作为感觉良好和感觉完整的一种方式，但我太专注于我的工作，以至于我慢慢地变成了锅里煮的青蛙，典型的比喻是，你没有意识到事情变得有多糟糕，因为它慢慢地发生在你身上，直到它很快发生，对吧？

Andy Johns: So on one hand, I was not only struggling emotionally and psychologically because of the pressures of the career and climbing the ladder and just the common existential angst that comes with being at a startup and not knowing what the future holds.

安迪·约翰斯：因此，一方面，我不仅在情感和心理上挣扎，因为职业生涯和攀登阶梯的压力，以及在初创公司时常见的存在焦虑，不知道未来会怎样。

What I later came to understand was that I was also starting to experience and to address old emotional pain that I'd buried for a very long time, stemming back to the death of my mom when I was 10.

后来我才明白，我也开始经历并解决我埋藏已久的情感痛苦，这些痛苦可以追溯到我十岁时妈妈的去世。

She was severely mentally ill.

她患有严重的精神疾病。

She was bipolar, had bouts of psychosis, and had spent time in and out of psychiatric hospitals.

她患有躁郁症，患有精神病，并且曾在精神病院进出过一段时间。

I can remember going to those hospitals as some of my earliest memories as a kid.

我记得去那些医院是我小时候最早的记忆。

Andy Johns: So there was a lot of disruption in my childhood, a lot of neglect, some occasional abuse, and then it culminated with the loss of the most important female figure in my life when I was 10.

安迪·约翰斯：所以我的童年经历了很多混乱，很多忽视，偶尔还有一些虐待，最后在我十岁时失去了我生命中最重要的女性人物。

Of course, like anyone else after that, I was in a lot of pain emotionally, but as a kid, you don't have the tools or even the capabilities to effectively process something as significant and traumatic as an experience like that.

当然，就像此后的其他人一样，我在情感上经历了很多痛苦，但作为一个孩子，你没有工具甚至能力来有效地处理像这样的经历这样重要和创伤性的事情。

Andy Johns: So my mind did what the mind of most children will do, which is it finds a way to bury it or to ignore it.

安迪·约翰斯：所以我的大脑做了大多数孩子都会做的事情，那就是找到一种方法来埋葬它或忽略它。

The thing that I had latched onto that made me feel better was that anytime I hit a home run or scored a goal or got straight A's and was just basically a stellar student and a stellar athlete, I was showered with love, not only from my family, which is fantastic, but from society at large, especially within the world that we live in.

让我感觉更好的是，每当我击出本垒打、进球或获得全优，并且基本上是一名出色的学生和出色的运动员时，我都沐浴在爱中，不仅来自我的家人，这太棒了，而且来自整个社会，尤其是在我们生活的世界中。

Andy Johns: So I learned very early on that if I wanted to feel good, I needed to achieve, and that if I wanted to love myself and be considered lovable by others, I needed to achieve.

安迪·约翰斯：所以我很早就知道，如果我想感觉良好，我需要实现目标，如果我想爱自己并被别人认为可爱，我需要实现目标。

That pulled me out of a darkness that I was in for several years as a kid, and I'm glad that it did, and it led to an excellent experience in high school, in college, and then well into my 20s, but eventually, those emotional wounds are going to come to the surface.

这让我摆脱了童年时数年的黑暗，我很高兴它确实做到了，这让我在高中、大学以及二十多岁的时候都获得了一段美好的经历，但最终，那些情感上的创伤将会浮出水面。

They're going to come up for error, and when they do, it's going to be difficult, and that's what happened with me.

他们会发现错误，而当他们这样做时，事情就会很困难，这就是我身上发生的事情。

Andy Johns: So it was really two things coming together at the same time.

安迪·约翰斯：所以这实际上是两件事同时发生的。

It was the growing pressures of an escalating career within the dynamic industry, but then also, I think, the natural maturation of my mind and of adult development such that it was time for that old pain to come to the surface, and when it did, it was very disruptive and it's something that I'm still continuing to work on to this day.

这是充满活力的行业中不断升级的职业压力所带来的越来越大的压力，但我认为，我的思想和成人发展的自然成熟，使得过去的痛苦是时候浮出水面了，当它浮出水面时，它是非常具有破坏性的，这是我至今仍在继续努力的事情。

Lenny: I imagine many people listening either resonate with some of this or just like, "This is exactly the life I'm living." I know you work with people now helping them through these challenges, especially in tech.

莱尼：我想很多人听了之后要么会对其中的一些产生共鸣，要么只是说，“这就是我现在的生活。”我知道您现在正在与人们合作，帮助他们应对这些挑战，尤其是在科技领域。

So two questions there.

那么有两个问题。

One is just you've done polls around this.

一是你已经围绕这个问题进行了民意调查。

Just what percentage of people in tech have you seen struggle with these sorts of things on some degree?

您见过多少比例的科技人员在某种程度上与此类问题作斗争？

Andy Johns: For the last two years, I've been doing a lot of writing, and most of my writing has really just been me opening up and sharing this personal side of what was going on behind the scenes.

安迪·约翰斯：在过去的两年里，我一直在写很多文章，而我的大部分写作实际上只是我开放并分享幕后发生的个人方面。

Along the way, I've been able to connect with, at this point, hundreds of folks in the tech industry who are dealing with their own forms of burnout or their own deep existential questions that are coming to the surface and they're trying to understand them.

一路走来，我已经能够与科技行业中的数百名人士建立联系，他们正在处理自己的倦怠形式或正在浮出水面的深刻的存在问题，并且他们正在尝试理解这些问题。

Andy Johns: So from some of the surveys I've put out from my own anecdotal experience and from some proper research that's been conducted by experts who focus on entrepreneur and high performer wellbeing, I'd say that it's a fair estimate to say that at least 50% to 60% of tech employees who have, just to give it a bit more nuance, who have been in the saddle, so to speak, for a minimum of five to seven years, they're experiencing some form of psychological and emotional distress.

安迪·约翰斯：因此，根据我根据自己的轶事经历以及关注企业家和高绩效者福祉的专家进行的一些适当研究进行的一些调查，我想说，至少 50% 到 60% 的科技员工（只是为了更细致一点），可以说，在至少五到七年的时间里，他们正在经历某种形式的心理和情绪困扰。

It may be minor enough such that they think it's just day-to-day anxiety, but it's often much more significant than people realize because, again, it creeps up on you slowly and then all of a sudden it hits you quickly.

它可能很小，以至于他们认为这只是日常的焦虑，但它往往比人们意识到的要严重得多，因为它会慢慢地蔓延到你身上，然后突然间它会迅速袭击你。

Lenny: We're going to dive into what this looks like and ways you've found to be helpful to people.

莱尼：我们将深入探讨这是什么样的以及您发现对人们有帮助的方式。

One last question before we get there.

在我们到达那里之前还有最后一个问题。

You walked away from a pretty senior incredible role, and in the post that you wrote, you shared the salary you gave up in that giving up.

你放弃了一个相当高级的令人难以置信的职位，在你写的帖子中，你分享了你在放弃中放弃的薪水。

Can you just talk about what that last role was and then what you had to give up to change career paths and

您能否谈谈最后一个角色是什么，然后您必须放弃什么才能改变职业道路以及

Andy Johns: Yeah.

安迪·琼斯：是的。

So one of the things that I did towards the tail end of my career as I became a consumer or founding partner of the consumer arm of an early stage venture capital firm, and most folks know that especially once a fund gets big enough, it can be a high paying job.

因此，当我成为一家早期风险投资公司的消费者或消费者部门的创始合伙人时，我在职业生涯的尾声所做的一件事是，大多数人都知道，特别是一旦基金变得足够大，它可能是一份高薪工作。

Suddenly, I found myself in a position where I was making high six figures per year into early seven figures.

突然间，我发现自己的年收入从六位数上升到了七位数。

When I look back on it in retrospect, I had put in so much effort to get to that point really going back to when I was 10 years old, having always been the straight A student and captain of whatever team I was on.

当我回想起来时，我付出了很多努力才能达到这一点，真正回到我10岁时，无论我在哪个团队，我一直都是全优学生和队长。

Andy Johns: From the age of 10 to basically 35, I was switched on, constantly seeking to perform at the top of whatever my field was.

Andy Johns：从 10 岁到 35 岁，我一直处于兴奋状态，不断寻求在我所在领域的顶尖表现。

So I gotten to that point first as an executive at a high growth startup, that was Wealthfront, and I became president and was next in line to be CEO before I had a health scare with my heart that led to me stepping away from the company because I knew I couldn't take on the CEO position.

因此，我首先在一家高增长初创公司 Wealthfront 担任高管，然后我成为了总裁，并成为了下一个首席执行官，然后我的心脏出现了健康问题，导致我离开了公司，因为我知道我无法担任首席执行官的职位。

Then here I was six or seven months later, again, very subconsciously driven by the desire to succeed because underneath that was the sense that I wasn't lovable unless I was succeeding.

六七个月后，我又再次潜意识地被成功的渴望所驱使，因为在潜意识里，我有一种感觉，除非我成功了，否则我就不可爱。

Andy Johns: Here I was after a heart attack scare at the age of 35 sweeping that under the carpet like I'd swept so much stuff under the carpet and choosing to join on as a founding partner of a venture capital firm, which is not an easy job at all, and especially when you're starting a new firm up, it's, in a lot of ways, it's a company in and of its own.

安迪·约翰斯：35 岁时，我经历了一次心脏病发作的恐慌，就像我把很多东西都隐藏起来一样，并选择加入一家风险投资公司作为创始合伙人，这根本不是一件容易的工作，尤其是当你创办一家新公司时，从很多方面来说，它本身就是一家公司。

So it was another startup.

所以这是另一个初创公司。

It was my sixth startup in a row.

这是我连续第六次创业。

Andy Johns: So three years into that though, even though I was working on my own mental health and my emotional wellbeing, I had convinced myself repeatedly for so many years that everything was okay and that I could continue to put my head down and run through these walls, these professional walls and keep going, but it got to a point to where that was no longer the case.

安迪·约翰斯：虽然三年过去了，尽管我一直在努力改善自己的心理健康和情绪健康，但多年来我一直反复说服自己一切都好，我可以继续低下头，穿过这些高墙，这些专业的高墙，继续前进，但到了一定程度，情况已不再如此。

Andy Johns: In fact, it was the culmination of conversations with my doctors and with the experts that I've been working with where I ended up actually spending 45 days in a mental health institute myself.

Andy Johns：事实上，这是我与我的医生和专家进行对话的结果，我自己最终在心理健康机构度过了 45 天。

It was something that was extremely difficult to do.

这是一件极其困难的事情。

It was something that certainly contributed or was really the tip of the sphere of me stepping away from my career of realizing that the only reason I was continuing to push forward despite how poorly I felt on the inside was because of stuff that had happened to me when I was much younger and because of the fallible nature of the human mind and how it wants to interpret experiences and ways that can become so self-critical and self damaging.

这无疑对我的职业生涯做出了贡献，或者说它确实是我离开职业生涯的尖端，让我意识到，尽管我内心感觉多么糟糕，但我仍然继续前进的唯一原因是因为我年轻时发生的事情，因为人类思维的易犯错误的本质，以及它如何想要解释可能变得如此自我批评和自我伤害的经历和方式。

Andy Johns: So that happened for me roughly three years ago.

安迪·琼斯：这大约是三年前发生在我身上的。

Needless to say, my life has changed quite a bit since then, and I'm happy to chat more about that, but that was a difficult decision to walk away from my career at the peak of it, but I guess the takeaway, and then I'll stop for a bit, is it's important for people to understand that there are formative experiences in our lives which put us in positions to where we form adaptations in order to survive, just like my attachment to achievement and how my self-worth was entirely tied up in that.

不用说，从那时起我的生活发生了很大的变化，我很高兴能更多地谈论这一点，但在职业生涯的巅峰时期离开是一个艰难的决定，但我想，然后我会停下来一会儿，人们了解我们生活中的形成性经历是很重要的，这些经历使我们处于适应的位置以求生存，就像我对成就的执着以及我的自我价值是如何完全与此联系在一起的。

Andy Johns: I needed that when I was younger because I was heartbroken, I lost a parent, and that adaptation that I formed saved my life when I was young, and it gave me a great childhood after that, and a great next couple of decades, but these adaptations, if you're unaware of them and if you're unaware of the subconscious drivers that are responsible for them, they run the risk that they go too far, and that these adaptations, which were initially beneficial to you and to your life, they reverse course in a sense, and they become detrimental to your present state and your future development.

安迪·约翰斯：我年轻时需要这种适应，因为我伤心欲绝，失去了父母，我形成的这种适应在我年轻时救了我的命，它给了我一个美好的童年，以及接下来的几十年的美好时光，但是这些适应，如果你没有意识到它们，如果你没有意识到对它们负责的潜意识驱动因素，它们就会冒走得太远的风险，而这些适应最初对你和你的生活有益，它们现在已经成为过去。从某种意义上说，它们会导致你现在的状态和未来的发展变得不利。

Andy Johns: So my stepping away from the career, stepping away from the high salary, and stepping away from everything I'd worked so hard to obtain was an action that I took in recognition of the fact that that early life adaptation had now gone awry and was responsible for my life heading in a negative direction and it was time to change.

安迪·约翰斯：所以，我放弃了职业生涯，放弃了高薪，放弃了我辛苦工作所获得的一切，这是我认识到早期生活适应现在已经出了差错并导致我的生活朝着消极方向发展的事实，是时候做出改变了。

Lenny: The gift of your experience going through all that is that now we can all benefit learning from that.

莱尼：你经历这一切的经历给我们带来的礼物是，现在我们都可以从中受益。

You spend your time these days helping people get over a lot of these challenges that they have.

这些天你花时间帮助人们克服他们面临的许多挑战。

Can you just talk about what it is you spend your time on specifically?

您能具体谈谈您的时间都花在哪些事情上吗？

Then let's unpack the process that you've come up with to help people through this.

然后让我们解开您提出的帮助人们解决此问题的流程。

Andy Johns: Now, when people ask me what I do, I say I do mental health advocacy, and I do it in a few ways.

安迪·约翰斯：现在，当人们问我做什么时，我说我从事心理健康宣传，并且我通过多种方式做到这一点。

One is I sit on the board of a nonprofit called Heroic Hearts Project, and what we do is we raise money so that we can pay for military veterans with PTSD to get access to alternative therapies, namely psychedelic assisted psychotherapy.

一是我是一个名为“英雄之心项目”的非营利组织的董事会成员，我们所做的就是筹集资金，以便我们可以为患有创伤后应激障碍的退伍军人提供替代疗法，即迷幻辅助心理治疗。

It was started by a handful of veterans.

它是由少数退伍军人发起的。

I was lucky enough to meet a few of them a couple of years ago.

几年前我很幸运能够见到他们中的一些人。

Given my own personal experience with PTSD stemming from my childhood experiences, I was bonded together with these men and women of the Armed Forces who had, in many cases, not only their own personal trauma, but also war trauma.

鉴于我个人在童年时期经历的创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）经历，我与这些武装部队的男女军人联系在一起，他们在很多情况下不仅遭受了自己的个人创伤，而且还遭受了战争创伤。

So that's one organization that I'm thankful to be able to work with and help out.

因此，我很感激能够与该组织合作并提供帮助。

Andy Johns: I also write my newsletter and have created a new website that I'm toying with.

安迪·约翰斯：我还写了我的时事通讯，并创建了一个我正在尝试的新网站。

In general, my writing and the content that I've put out is focused on the unhappy achievers, the other folks like myself who are out there, which there's quite a few of us.

总的来说，我的写作和发布的内容主要针对那些不快乐的成就者，以及像我这样的其他人，我们当中有不少人。

I write in order to express my personal experience because I think there's many others that can relate.

我写这篇文章是为了表达我的个人经历，因为我认为还有很多其他人可以与之相关。

So those are the things that I've been working on and a little bit of coaching with some of the high performers as well.

这些就是我一直在做的事情，也对一些表现出色的人进行了一些指导。

Lenny: Throw out the website in case people want to check it out while we're talking.

莱尼：扔掉这个网站，以防人们在我们谈话时想查看它。

Andy Johns: The website that I'm playing around with is called Clues.Life, clues as in questions, clues, not truth dot life or facts dot life.

安迪·约翰斯：我正在使用的网站名为 Clues.Life，问题中的线索、线索，而不是真相点生活或事实点生活。

I called it Clues Dot Life for a reason because if there's one thing that I've learned in my own personal journey, it's that given the immense heterogeneity of the human population and how we're all born unique and then we're made further unique through our own individual life experiences, the thing that's clear to me is that if somebody is going through their own struggles, at the end of the day, they have to find the philosophies, the tools, and the methods that work for them.

我将其称为“生命线索”是有原因的，因为如果说我在自己的个人旅程中学到了一件事，那就是鉴于人类群体的巨大异质性，以及我们生来都是独一无二的，然后我们通过自己的个人生活经历变得更加独特，我清楚的是，如果有人正在经历自己的挣扎，最终，他们必须找到适合他们的哲学、工具和方法。

Andy Johns: You can read plenty of studies, you can read the books, you can listen to what others are doing, but at the end of the day, you got to personalize it to yourself.

安迪·约翰斯：你可以阅读大量的研究，你可以阅读书籍，你可以听听别人在做什么，但最终，你必须根据自己的情况进行个性化。

So that's why I called it Clues Dot Life because I'm building this library of mental health information that allows people to navigate all of this information in search of their own clues.

这就是为什么我将其称为“Clues Dot Life”，因为我正在建立这个心理健康信息库，让人们可以浏览所有这些信息来寻找自己的线索。

Lenny: Awesome, and we'll link to that in the show notes, but it's an easy URL to remember.

Lenny：太棒了，我们会在演出笔记中链接到该链接，但这是一个容易记住的 URL。

Something you spent a lot of your time on as you've talked about is helping people through deep personal transformation.

正如您所说，您花了很多时间来帮助人们进行深刻的个人转变。

That's the way you describe it.

这就是你描述的方式。

What is involved in that process of someone going through a deep personal transformation?

一个人经历深刻的个人转变的过程涉及什么？

Andy Johns: I love this question.

安迪·琼斯：我喜欢这个问题。

So most of the conversations I have are with folks who are going through significant change.

因此，我的大部分对话都是与正在经历重大变化的人们进行的。

Now, what's involved in that?

现在，这涉及什么？

It can happen on a spectrum where everyone's process is unique.

它可能发生在每个人的过程都是独特的范围内。

We all change and unfold in identical ways.

我们都以相同的方式改变和展开。

Some can go through subtle shifts.

有些可能会经历微妙的转变。

I've heard this referred to as a micro transition, where, for example, they may be working at a tech industry or at a tech company, but this specific company they're working at, they have no real values connection to it.

我听说这被称为微观转型，例如，他们可能在科技行业或科技公司工作，但他们所工作的这家特定公司与之没有真正的价值观联系。

So part of their suffering is the fact that they feel that the work that they're doing doesn't really matter or they don't feel a connection to it.

因此，他们的部分痛苦在于，他们觉得自己正在做的工作并不重要，或者感觉与工作没有联系。

So switching to work at a different company that's aligned with something that's consistent with their values, that may be enough for somebody to go through a small transition and then find themselves in a happier place.

因此，跳槽到另一家与他们的价值观相一致的公司工作，这可能足以让某人经历一个小小的转变，然后发现自己处于一个更快乐的地方。

Andy Johns: The transitions that I talk about are the big fundamental ones like the transition that I've been going through myself.

安迪·约翰斯：我所说的转变是一些重大的基本转变，就像我自己经历的转变一样。

Now, what's involved in that?

现在，这涉及什么？

I think that there are four parts, just to give it a simple general framework.

我认为有四个部分，只是给它一个简单的总体框架。

Step one is it begins with suffering.

第一步是从痛苦开始。

These large transitions in life rarely take place in the absence of suffering.

生活中的这些重大转变很少会在没有痛苦的情况下发生。

So step number one is suffer.

所以第一步就是受苦。

Usually, the deeper somebody suffers, the more significant the transition that may follow.

通常，一个人遭受的痛苦越深，随之而来的转变就越重要。

There's a reason why in the 12 steps community like Alcoholics Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous, you name it, there's a reason that rock bottom is in the vernacular because rock bottom tends to proceed somebody getting sober.

在匿名戒酒会、匿名戒毒会等“12步”社区中，凡是你能想到的，用白话来说“最低点”是有原因的，因为“最低点”往往会促使人们变得清醒。

So step one is suffering.

所以第一步就是受苦。

Andy Johns: Step two is seeking the truth behind why we suffer.

安迪·约翰斯：第二步是寻找我们受苦背后的真相。

Once the suffering gets so bad in somebody through some spiritual intervention, a legal intervention, the intervention of friends and family, whatever it may be, they decide to change, and in order to change, you have to understand the truth as to who you are and why you are the way you are and why you're suffering.

一旦通过一些精神干预、法律干预、朋友和家人的干预，无论是什么，某人的痛苦变得如此严重，他们就会决定改变，而为了改变，你必须了解真相，了解你是谁，为什么你是这样的，为什么你会受苦。

The answer lies in understanding the truth, and that is usually a long process.

答案在于了解真相，而这通常是一个漫长的过程。

Digging through the subconscious mind, digging through your history and your past, digging through your relationships, that takes a lot of time.

挖掘潜意识，挖掘你的历史和过去，挖掘你的人际关系，这需要很多时间。

It takes a lot of time to remove the mental blocks that we might've spent decades developing such that we don't even see these patterns that we play out regularly.

消除我们可能花了几十年时间形成的心理障碍需要花费大量时间，以至于我们甚至看不到我们经常出现的这些模式。

Andy Johns: So first, you begin with suffering, and then second, you seek the truth for your suffering.

安迪·约翰斯：所以首先，你从痛苦开始，然后第二，你为你的痛苦寻找真相。

What I have found, and that leads to step three in the process, is that once you discover the truth of your suffering, the real root cause of it and where it came from, that's when you move to step three, which is you begin to experience and to practice self-compassion and self-love because inevitably, what you discover through this process of seeking the truth is that your suffering isn't necessarily your fault.

我发现，这导致了这个过程中的第三步，一旦你发现了你的痛苦的真相，它的真正根源和它来自哪里，那就是当你进入第三步时，你开始体验和实践自我同情和自爱，因为不可避免地，你通过这个寻求真理的过程发现你的痛苦不一定是你的错。

Maybe you're suffering because of things that you experienced or had to go through of which you had no control over.

也许你因为经历过或必须经历一些你无法控制的事情而感到痛苦。

Andy Johns: Nonetheless, it's common for the mind, especially the mind of a child, to interpret those less than nurturing experiences as, "This happened because of me." So what sits at the core of their suffering is not only a low sense of self, but a shame, a shame regarding who they are and who they believe themselves to be.

安迪·约翰斯：尽管如此，人们的头脑，尤其是孩子的头脑，通常会将那些不那么有益的经历解释为“这都是因为我而发生的”。因此，他们痛苦的核心不仅是自我意识低下，而且是对自己是谁以及他们相信自己是谁的耻辱。

Andy Johns: When you dig deep enough into your own self-understanding, eventually you'll discover that that's not true, that it isn't your fault, that these things swept you up like a wave, and you were just along for a ride of which you had no choice.

安迪·约翰斯：当你足够深入地挖掘自己的自我理解时，最终你会发现那不是真的，这不是你的错，这些事情像海浪一样把你卷走，而你只是在顺风顺水，你别无选择。

When you understand that and you start to feel a sense of forgiveness and to begin to love yourself for the first time, you make this switch where then you're willing to live in a way that is more consistent with self-love and self-compassion.

当你明白这一点并且你开始感受到宽恕并第一次开始爱自己时，你就会做出这种转变，然后你愿意以一种更符合自爱和自我同情的方式生活。

Andy Johns: So me, for example, stepping away from my career, at the end of the day, I wasn't running from something, I was running back towards myself.

安迪·约翰斯：例如，我放弃了自己的职业生涯，最终，我并不是在逃避什么，而是在跑回自己身边。

That was an act of kindness towards myself.

这是对我自己的善意之举。

Going into a 45-day hospitalization, that was an act of love.

住院45天，这是一种爱的表现。

So what ends up happening is the truth fuels that process of self-love, and when you begin to live in a way that is consistent with valuing yourself and understanding that it's not your fault, then that's when you move to step four, which is compassion towards others because by understanding yourself and realizing the true nature of why you are the way you are and forgiving yourself because you understand it's not your fault, guess what?

所以最终发生的事情是真相推动了自爱的过程，当你开始以一种与重视自己并理解这不是你的错相一致的方式生活时，那就是你进入第四步的时候，这是对他人的同情心，因为通过了解自己，认识到为什么你是这样的真正本质，并原谅自己，因为你明白这不是你的错，你猜怎么着？

You see the same thing in everybody else.

你在其他人身上看到同样的事情。

Andy Johns: This is what is meant when folks sometimes say we're all adults or we're all children walking around in adult bodies, right?

安迪·约翰斯：这就是人们有时说我们都是成年人或者我们都是穿着成人身体走来走去的孩子的意思，对吗？

We're just acting out the things that were done to us in the past because when I think of the human mind, there are many ways that you can describe what the brain is, but one way that I describe it certainly is that it's autobiographical.

我们只是在表演过去对我们所做的事情，因为当我想到人类思维时，有很多方法可以描述大脑是什么，但我描述它的一种方式肯定是它是自传体的。

It tries to predict what's going to happen next based on what happened in the past.

它试图根据过去发生的事情来预测接下来会发生什么。

It's a prediction engine.

这是一个预测引擎。

That's what it does, and that's why I say it's autobiographical because the way that you present yourself to the world as an adult is a reflection of what happened to you in the past, the messages you were told, the ways you were conditioned by society, maybe the traumas you experienced.

这就是它的作用，这就是为什么我说它是自传性的，因为作为一个成年人，你向世界展示自己的方式反映了你过去发生的事情，你被告知的信息，你受到社会制约的方式，也许是你经历的创伤。

Andy Johns: So that's the process as I see it of deep, deep, deep transformation.

安迪·琼斯：这就是我所看到的深刻、深刻、深刻转变的过程。

It's that four-step process of the suffering, the seeking of truth, the living in a way that is compassionate towards oneself, and then living in a way that is compassionate towards others.

这就是受苦、寻求真理、以对自己慈悲的方式生活、然后以对他人慈悲的方式生活的四个步骤的过程。

When you do that, you change.

当你这样做时，你就会改变。

Think of that as the horizontal foundation to which the rest of your external life is built.

将其视为您其余外在生活的水平基础。

The place you choose to live, the partner you choose to have, the friends you have, the career you have, all of these things are erections on top of a foundation of identity, and that identity is what is completely rewired when somebody goes through that four-step process, and as a result, everything that's built on top of that identity, it doesn't necessarily have to change, but it might.

你选择居住的地方，你选择的伴侣，你拥有的朋友，你拥有的职业，所有这些东西都是建立在身份基础之上的，而当某人经历这四个步骤的过程时，身份就会被完全重新连接，因此，建立在身份之上的一切不一定必须改变，但可能会改变。

Lenny: That feels like a reason somebody wouldn't want to go down this journey of, "I don't want to change everything about myself."

莱尼：这感觉就像是有人不想走上这段旅程的原因，“我不想改变自己的一切。”

Andy Johns: Yes, and this is the power of the human mind at work or what someone referred to as the ego.

安迪·约翰斯：是的，这就是人类思维的力量，或者有人所说的“自我”。

As soon as the ego senses that something wants to challenge it and to undermine its authority, it finds a way to push it away.

一旦自我感觉到有什么东西想要挑战它并破坏它的权威，它就会找到一种方法将它推开。

It finds a way to ignore it because it is a very difficult process.

它找到了一种方法来忽略它，因为这是一个非常困难的过程。

I now understand what some philosophers described as death before dying.

我现在明白了一些哲学家所说的“临死前的死亡”。

In this process of change that I've been going through, it's been the death of the old me, the death of Andy whose identity was entirely attached to succeeding, and that old Andy doesn't want to let go.

在我经历的这个改变过程中，是旧的我的死亡，是安迪的死亡，他的身份完全依赖于成功，而旧的安迪不想放手。

It's been around for a few decades.

它已经存在了几十年了。

It believes that it's there to protect me.

它相信它是来保护我的。

Andy Johns: This is a survival mechanism that's somewhat gone awry within the context of modern life.

安迪·约翰斯：这是一种在现代生活背景下有些出问题的生存机制。

So it doesn't want to let go, but that's what I've been doing.

所以它不想放手，但这就是我一直在做的。

That's the process I've been going through is slowly but surely finding a way to take my fingers off the steering wheel and to let that old sense of self die, and then in doing so create the room for what's next, whatever that may be.

这就是我一直在经历的过程，缓慢但坚定地找到一种方法，让我的手指离开方向盘，让旧的自我意识消失，然后为接下来的事情创造空间，无论是什么。

I'm three years into the process of discovering what that will be.

我花了三年时间才发现那将是什么。

So we'll see.

所以我们拭目以待。

Lenny: Thinking through these four steps, suffering sounds like people will just do that naturally, potentially, and I feel like it gets hard at the understanding the source of that suffering.

莱尼：通过这四个步骤思考，痛苦听起来就像人们会自然而然地、潜在地那样做，我觉得很难理解这种痛苦的根源。

I guess, one, is that true or do people try to resist that suffering and are just like, "Nah, it's okay, it's okay," and they white knuckle it?

我想，第一，这是真的吗？还是人们试图抵制这种痛苦，只是说，“不，没关系，没关系，”然后他们就紧张起来？

Andy Johns: I think you're pretty spot on with it.

安迪·琼斯：我认为你说得很对。

This dips into a lot of the ancient Eastern spiritual traditions of just this recognition that life involves suffering.

这涉及到许多古老的东方精神传统，即承认生命涉及苦难。

One way or another, there's going to be suffering.

无论如何，都会有痛苦。

I think of it as there's two types of suffering.

我认为有两种类型的痛苦。

There's the necessary suffering like we're going to get old and our bodies are going to hurt and we're going to have physical ailments and toothaches and shit's just going to happen and we're going to lose the people we love, all of us, and the 80 to a hundred billion homo sapiens that live before us gone through the same thing.

我们会经历一些必要的痛苦，比如我们会变老，我们的身体会受伤，我们会出现身体疾病，牙痛，糟糕的事情就会发生，我们会失去我们所爱的人，我们所有人，以及生活在我们之前经历同样事情的 80 到 1000 亿智人。

Andy Johns: So there is necessary suffering in life or the mandatory suffering, and then there's the unnecessary suffering, which is the suffering that is almost entirely, and I think the argument could be made that it's entirely made up in our minds.

安迪·约翰斯：所以，生活中有必要的痛苦或强制性的痛苦，然后还有不必要的痛苦，这些痛苦几乎完全是痛苦，我认为可以说这完全是我们头脑中编造出来的。

This is the superpowers of the human mind gone awry again in the modern context.

这是人类思维的超能力在现代背景下再次出现问题。

So there's going to be a lot of suffering one way or another.

因此，无论怎样都会有很多痛苦。

I think if there's a goal or objective, it's to minimize the unnecessary suffering, but the seeking of the truth part is very difficult.

我想如果有一个目标的话，那就是尽量减少不必要的痛苦，但寻求真相的部分是非常困难的。

It takes years.

这需要数年时间。

Andy Johns: There's a reason that, again, in some of these spiritual traditions, let's take Buddhism for example, there's a reason that there's so much structure and discipline and there's a daily method that they adhere to because it turns out it takes daily practice.

安迪·约翰斯：在一些精神传统中，我们以佛教为例，有如此多的结构和纪律，并且有他们坚持的日常方法，因为事实证明这需要日常练习，这是有原因的。

In the same way that if you want to get extremely fit and climb Mount Everest, that's not something you do by just getting off the couch, right?

就像如果你想变得非常健康并攀登珠穆朗玛峰一样，这不是你从沙发上起身就能做到的，对吧？

It takes a dedication to it.

这需要奉献精神。

I think that the seeking of truth takes that dedication, and that's, again, why I believe that the first step is almost always suffering because to undergo that process of personal transformation, which can be very difficult, and it can feel like you're in a life raft and you've just pushed away from the shore completely untethered, uncertain of where you're floating.

我认为寻求真理需要这种奉献精神，这也是为什么我相信第一步几乎总是痛苦的，因为要经历个人转变的过程，这可能非常困难，感觉就像你在救生筏上，你刚刚被推离岸边，完全不受束缚，不确定自己漂浮在哪里。

In order to work up the courage to get to that point, things typically have to get pretty bad.

为了鼓起勇气达到这一点，事情通常必须变得非常糟糕。

Andy Johns: You say, "I can't fucking do this anymore.

安迪·琼斯：你说，“我他妈不能再这样做了。

I'm not going to live like this.

我不会这样生活。

Something's got to change." So much of that seeking of the truth is actually at first driven by intense fear, fear of going back to how bad things were and feeling that bad again.

有些事情必须改变。”事实上，对真相的大部分追求一开始都是由强烈的恐惧驱动的，害怕回到过去糟糕的事情并再次感觉糟糕。

Eventually, the process changes tone when you move past the fear stage and you understand yourself enough and then you start to look forward optimistically towards the future, where instead of just being driven by fear, you're also pulled forward by a vision for the future that inspires you.

最终，当你度过了恐惧阶段，并且你足够了解自己，然后你开始乐观地展望未来时，这个过程就会改变基调，你不再只是被恐惧所驱使，而是被对未来的愿景所激励，从而向前迈进。

So that eventually comes, but to begin with, yes, this process of discovering the truth is very, very, very, very difficult.

所以这最终会到来，但首先，是的，这个发现真相的过程非常非常非常困难。

It requires a personal commitment.

这需要个人的承诺。

It's not something anyone else can do for you.

这不是其他人可以为你做的事情。

Lenny: With that context in mind that it's very difficult, I imagine many people listening are like, "Yes, I have a lot of suffering that I'm going through.

莱尼：考虑到这非常困难，我想很多人听后都会说：“是的，我正在经历很多痛苦。

Life is hard, work is hard, work is too crazy," especially product managers and founders that listen to this podcast.

生活很辛苦，工作很辛苦，工作太疯狂”，尤其是听这个播客的产品经理和创始人。

Andy Johns: I know.

安迪·琼斯：我知道。

To all the VPs of Product out there, I'm so sorry.

对于所有产品副总裁，我很抱歉。

I've been in your shoes.

我一直处于你的处境。

Lenny: So with that, say someone wanted to go down this path and understand the truth of what is the source of this suffering that you even described as unnecessary and made up, what would the first couple steps be of knowing that it's going to take years potentially of how to actually try to understand this?

莱尼：那么，假设有人想沿着这条路走下去，了解这种痛苦的根源是什么，你甚至将这种痛苦描述为不必要的和捏造的，那么首先要采取的几个步骤是什么，要知道如何真正尝试理解这一点可能需要数年时间？

Andy Johns: Commonly in the West, the first step that makes a lot of sense is you turn to somebody who's trained in helping you figure out what those truths are, which is a therapist or a psychologist or a psychiatrist or a counselor.

安迪·约翰斯：在西方，最有意义的第一步是求助于受过训练的人来帮助你弄清楚这些真相是什么，他们是治疗师、心理学家、精神病学家或咨询师。

Sometimes people turn to religious or spiritual leaders because they can be quite gifted in this as well.

有时人们会求助于宗教或精神领袖，因为他们在这方面也很有天赋。

That's the most common step.

这是最常见的步骤。

Andy Johns: That's the first step that I turn to when I was just completely stricken by panic and terrified that I might harm myself.

安迪·约翰斯：当我完全陷入恐慌并害怕自己可能会伤害自己时，这是我采取的第一步。

I said, "I got to figure out what the hell's going on because I can't live feeling like this," and all I knew to do was reach out to a therapist, and that is a wonderful first start because if anything, they're not going to have all the answers, but they can act like a router, where as they're helping you understand yourself and they're really understanding you, they're thinking about, "Okay.

我说，“我必须弄清楚到底发生了什么，因为我无法生活在这样的感觉中，”我所知道的就是联系治疗师，这是一个美妙的开始，因为如果有的话，他们不会得到所有的答案，但他们可以像路由器一样，当他们帮助你了解自己并且真正了解你时，他们会想，“好吧。

Who might this person also benefit from speaking with?

此人还可能从与谁交谈中受益？

Let's route them to this person that specializes in body-based work, somatic work.

让我们将它们路由给专门从事基于身体的工作（躯体工作）的人。

Let's send this person to somebody that specializes in nervous system management through breath work or other things." So seeking a therapist is a pretty good first step.

让我们把这个人送到专门通过呼吸工作或其他方法进行神经系统管理的人那里。”因此，寻求治疗师是一个很好的第一步。

Lenny: Any advice on how to figure out who the right therapist or wrong therapist is for you?

莱尼：关于如何确定谁适合你，谁适合你，有什么建议吗？

I know you've actually shared somewhere on LinkedIn once that there's also a lot of disagreement within the mental health community of what is the right approach and what's the right solution.

我知道您实际上曾在 LinkedIn 上的某个地方分享过，心理健康界对于什么是正确的方法以及什么是正确的解决方案也存在很多分歧。

Andy Johns: It's like speed dating at first because I would argue that the most important factor is that you feel safe.

安迪·约翰斯：一开始就像快速约会，因为我认为最重要的因素是你感到安全。

Animals can teach us so much about what it means to heal ourselves.

动物可以教会我们很多关于自我治愈的意义。

Imagine going to the pound and you go in there and there's a bunch of dogs that have been picked up off the street or that have been abandoned, and the vast majority of them, they're a nervous wreck, right?

想象一下，你去收容所，看到一群从街上捡来的或被遗弃的狗，其中绝大多数都神经衰弱，对吗？

Their tail is down in between their legs.

它们的尾巴垂在两腿之间。

They're hunched over and they might be shaking.

他们弯着腰，可能会发抖。

Their nervous system is completely overwhelmed.

他们的神经系统完全不堪重负。

That is not the time to teach a dog tricks.

现在不是教狗技巧的时候。

When the dog still can't come out the corner of the kennel is not the time to teach it how to sit.

当狗还不能从狗窝的角落里出来时，就不是教它如何坐下的时候了。

Once that dog can make it into the arms of an owner that it feels safe with and loved by, that's when you see the dog transform and change, and that's when you can teach it a lot because it's open and receptive to it.

一旦那只狗能够进入主人的怀抱，让它感到安全并被爱着，那就是你看到狗发生转变和变化的时候，那时你就可以教它很多东西，因为它是开放的并且愿意接受它。

Andy Johns: So that's number one in my advice is speed date if you've got the opportunity to and try out a few therapists and just go based on intuition, what just feels right to you, and you're going to want to fall into that feeling of comfort.

安迪·约翰斯：所以，我的建议中的第一条就是快速约会，如果你有机会尝试一些治疗师，并且只是根据直觉，感觉对你合适，你就会想要陷入那种舒适的感觉。

Now, a quick asterisk on that.

现在，对此快速加一个星号。

Of course if you're in real distress, if you're in a bad place, just see whatever professional you can as soon as possible.

当然，如果您真的遇到困难，或者处境不好，请尽快寻求专业人士的帮助。

That's what I did.

我就是这么做的。

I was fortunate to where the first one that I saw was also fantastic.

我很幸运，我看到的第一个也很棒。

I ended up seeing many other specialists over the years, but that first one, she was wonderful.

这些年来我见过很多其他专家，但第一个专家，她非常棒。

Andy Johns: So it's essential that you feel comfortable with them.

Andy Johns：所以让你对它们感到舒服是很重要的。

I would also say, this one's a little controversial, but you're going to want a therapist that is at least as intelligent, if not more intelligent than you because I think part of that openness to learning from them and to feeling somewhat comfortable but also feeling inspired and looking forward to it as if sometimes they say things that make you say, "Oh, shit.

我还想说，这个有点争议，但你会想要一个至少和你一样聪明的治疗师，如果不是比你更聪明的话，因为我认为向他们学习的开放态度的一部分，感觉有些舒服，但也感到鼓舞和期待，就好像有时他们说的话让你说，“哦，操。

Wow.

哇。

Wow, I never thought of that.

哇，我从来没想过这一点。

That was smart," or, "That was a wonderful insight." I don't think if you respect their intellectual abilities, then it's going to be difficult for them to help you.

这很聪明，”或者，“这是一个很棒的洞察力。”我不认为如果你尊重他们的智力，那么他们就很难帮助你。

They may not be able to communicate on the same wavelength.

它们可能无法在同一波长上进行通信。

So you really want to look for that intuitive feeling of something that is safe and comfortable.

所以你真的想寻找一种安全舒适的直观感觉。

Ideally, if you can find somebody with some intellectual horsepower that matches your own, honestly, I think the rest after that is just implementation details.

理想情况下，如果你能找到一个具有与你相匹配的智力能力的人，老实说，我认为剩下的只是实现细节。

Lenny: If someone maybe isn't ready for a therapist and that's something about that just holds them back, is there another route that you would recommend people take or is it just go straight to a therapist?

莱尼：如果某人可能还没有准备好接受治疗师，而这只是阻碍他们前进的因素，那么您是否会建议人们采取其他途径，或者直接去找治疗师？

Andy Johns: Absolutely.

安迪·约翰斯：当然。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

If you're not in a state of distress, but you feel like there's something to be figured out, there's an ancient technology known as pen and paper.

如果您没有陷入困境，但感觉有什么事情需要解决，那么有一种古老的技术，称为笔和纸。

At the end of the day, the seeking of the truth involves the seeking of a deep sense of self-understanding, and if you can get into the daily practice of being able to sit down with pen and paper and write to yourself, to ask yourself questions, to really sit there and evaluate the thoughts that are running through your head, it is possible for somebody to, and I'll use the term, I won't get into it, but to reach some state of bliss or enlightenment or some real spiritual awakening, it is possible for somebody to do that entirely on their own with just pen and paper and a quiet room.

归根结底，寻求真理涉及到寻求深刻的自我理解，如果你能进入日常练习，能够坐下来用笔和纸给自己写信，问自己问题，真正坐在那里评估你头脑中的想法，那么有人就有可能做到，我会用这个词，我不会深入探讨它，但是要达到某种幸福或启蒙的状态或某种真正的精神觉醒，那么某人就有可能做到这一点。完全靠他们自己完成这件事，只需要纸笔和一个安静的房间。

Andy Johns: I know people that have arrived at a deep place of self-love and self-understanding through those methods, and I know a lot of others, including myself, where the writing to others was really the writing to myself 15 years ago as a way for me to continue to understand myself more deeply.

安迪·琼斯：我知道有人通过这些方法达到了自爱和自我理解的深处，我也认识很多人，包括我自己，写给别人的其实就是15年前写给自己的，作为一种让我继续更深入地了解自己的方式。

So I think pen and paper is deeply, deeply overlooked and underrated in this process.

所以我认为笔和纸在这个过程中被深深地忽视和低估了。

Lenny: Say you get a pen and paper, is there some guide or framework or something you'd point people to you to think through what to think about and how to approach this?

莱尼：假设你有一支笔和一张纸，是否有一些指南或框架或其他东西可以指导人们思考要考虑的内容以及如何解决这个问题？

Andy Johns: Yeah.

安迪·琼斯：是的。

There are different ways of doing it.

有不同的方法可以做到这一点。

Some advocate for a completely unstructured approach because what you want is you don't want to turn it into assignment.

有些人主张采用完全非结构化的方法，因为您想要的是您不想将其变成作业。

You want to feel your way into it.

你想要摸索进入其中。

If something is bubbling up in your mind, just spit it out.

如果你脑子里冒出什么东西，就把它吐出来。

Don't analyze why it's coming up, just allow it to flow.

不要分析它为什么会出现，只是让它流动。

That method certainly works.

这个方法确实有效。

Sit down with no agenda.

坐下来，没有议程。

On some days you'll write one sentence and that's enough, and on other days you'll write 10 pages and that's also enough.

有的日子你写一句话就够了，有的日子你写10页也够了。

There's some magic to allowing the human mind to just work and to not interrupt it through some analytical process.

让人类的思维正常工作而不被某些分析过程打断是有一定魔力的。

Andy Johns: On the flip side, if you want a little bit more structure, one thing you can do is I'd like to start with if the goal is to understand oneself, then one of the quickest ways of doing that is to quickly write down a list of simple bullet points of the most recent situations you can think of where you became most acutely reactionary and emotional.

安迪·约翰斯：另一方面，如果你想要更多的结构，你可以做的一件事是，如果目标是了解自己，那么最快的方法之一就是快速写下一系列简单的要点，列出你能想到的最近情况，在这些情况下你变得最激烈的反应和情绪化。

You could have been having a political conversation with somebody and they said something that really just you felt like you just wanted to reach out and strangle them.

你可能正在和某人进行政治对话，而他们说了一些让你觉得你只想伸手掐死他们的话。

You could have felt deeply insecure in a social setting.

您可能在社交场合感到非常不安全。

Andy Johns: Just run through those scenarios where something disrupted what might've been your current state of presence and calmness.

安迪·约翰斯：只要回顾一下那些场景，其中某些事情扰乱了你当前的存在和平静状态。

When you identify those situations where there was some strong reaction, that is very revealing because that wasn't a conscious thought process that led to the reaction.

当你发现那些有强烈反应的情况时，这非常有启发性，因为这并不是一个有意识的思维过程导致的反应。

That was a knee-jerk reaction.

这是下意识的反应。

That was a reflex.

那是一种条件反射。

If there's a reflex, then there's something that's underlying the reflex, and the question to then ask is, "Why did that happen?"

如果存在反射，那么反射背后就有某种东西，然后要问的问题是：“为什么会发生这种情况？”

Andy Johns: Then from there, it's an unstructured process.

Andy Johns：从那时起，这是一个非结构化的过程。

Keep asking, keep digging, keep asking, "Okay.

继续问，继续挖掘，继续问，“好吧。

If this happened, why did that happen?

如果发生这种情况，为什么会发生这种情况？

Well ..." and then write a little bit, "Well, is that really the reason why?

嗯……”然后写一点，“嗯，这真的是原因吗？

Was there something else?" Just keep working at it until you hit the truth, and you'll know what the truth is because it always feels either deeply uncomfortable or it feels like an epiphany.

还有别的事吗？”只要继续努力，直到你发现真相，你就会知道真相是什么，因为它总是让人感觉非常不舒服，或者感觉像是顿悟。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

For you that was recognizing that it was about your mom.

对你来说，这就是认识到这是关于你妈妈的。

Andy Johns: There were many parts of it.

安迪·琼斯：其中有很多部分。

At its core, at first it began with a simple truth, which was I went into the therapist, I was describing what I was feeling, I was describing the uncontrollable thoughts and mental imagery that I was experiencing, and my sleep disruption, and my pounding heart, and everything else, and she said, "Yup, you're having panic attacks," and just knowing like, "Oh, there's a thing and it's called a panic attack," starting at that basic truth was enough in the moment to just take a little bit of the edge off.

其核心，一开始是从一个简单的事实开始的，那就是我去找治疗师，我正在描述我的感受，我正在描述我正在经历的无法控制的想法和心理意象，以及我的睡眠中断，我的心脏跳动，以及其他一切，她说，“是的，你正在惊恐发作，”并且只知道，“哦，有一种东西，它被称为惊恐发作，”从这个基本事实开始，此刻就足以采取一个边缘有点脱落。

Andy Johns: So this journey along the way is there are dozens of truths and then hundreds of truths, and then every now and then it's punctuated by the big, "Oh, holy shit.

安迪·约翰斯：所以这一路上有几十个真相，然后是数百个真相，然后时不时地被大话打断，“哦，天哪。

I never saw that coming," kind of truth.

我从来没有预见到会发生这种事，”这是实话。

It's just what the experience is.

这就是体验。

I had many, many truths about myself that I discovered before I hit some of the fundamental ones that were at the core of my subconscious.

在我触及潜意识核心的一些基本真理之前，我发现了很多很多关于自己的真理。

Lenny: Following in that thread, what are signs that you're in need of this transformation versus, "Work is just stressful.

莱尼：接下来，有哪些迹象表明你需要这种转变，而不是“工作压力很大。

Things are hard.

事情很难。

I have some challenging meetings," which a lot of people go through on and off?

我有一些具有挑战性的会议，”很多人都断断续续地经历过这些会议？

I've had a lot of those.

我有过很多这样的经历。

What are signs maybe you're boarding out or something that requires, "Wow, I really need to dig a lot deeper"?

有哪些迹象表明您可能要登机，或者需要“哇，我真的需要更深入地挖掘”？

Andy Johns: There are day-to-day stresses that are normal and we just have to put up with, but then there's the other stuff that's the flashing red alarm.

安迪·约翰斯：日常压力是正常的，我们只需要忍受，但还有其他事情，那就是闪烁的红色警报。

For me, and a lot of the research and literature supports this too, is, again, you can go back to animals.

对我来说，很多研究和文献也支持这一点，再次强调，你可以回到动物身上。

It's like when their fundamental functions, when their core behaviors of diet, exercise, playfulness, socialization, sleep, when those things get disrupted, it's a sign that there is something going on here that you need to take a look at.

就像当他们的基本功能，当他们的饮食、锻炼、玩耍、社交、睡眠等核心行为被扰乱时，这就是一个迹象，表明这里正在发生一些事情，你需要注意一下。

Andy Johns: So the same is true with people.

安迪·琼斯：人也是如此。

If your sleep always sucks, if your relationships are constantly strained or frequently strained, if your physical health is failing, there's so many ways that that can be measured so there's really no excuse for that to say, "Oh, I just didn't know," I'd say it's to look at those things.

如果你的睡眠总是很糟糕，如果你的人际关系持续紧张或经常紧张，如果你的身体健康状况不佳，有很多方法可以衡量，所以真的没有理由说，“哦，我只是不知道，”我想说的是看看这些事情。

When those are suffering or when they're really out of whack, it's undeniable that there is something that is detrimental to your wellbeing that's going on right now, and your body is telling you, "Stop.

当这些正在遭受痛苦或当他们真的不正常时，不可否认的是，现在正在发生一些对您的健康有害的事情，并且您的身体会告诉您：“停下来。

Something needs to change." So that is number one to look at.

有些事情需要改变。”所以这是首要考虑的。

Look at the fundamentals.

看看基本面。

Andy Johns: Reflecting on my own situation, I almost had a heart attack at 35, and I got the classic talk from a Stanford cardiologist saying, "You're just going to be another 40-something-year-old CEO with a broken heart." The years of really poor sleep, the number of teeth that I had broken that I had to have fixed multiple times because for years my grinding was so bad that I had to, now two times over, had to completely redo all the teeth, all my molars, and then most of the front teeth as well, and I just continued to move forward even though my body was, again, throwing out all the signals.

安迪·约翰斯（Andy Johns）：反思一下我自己的情况，我在 35 岁时差点心脏病发作，我听到了一位斯坦福大学心脏病专家的经典演讲：“你将成为又一个 40 多岁、心碎的首席执行官。”这些年的睡眠质量真的很差，我的牙齿断了很多次，因为多年来我的磨牙太糟糕了，现在我必须重新做两次，必须完全重做所有的牙齿，所有的臼齿，然后还有大部分的门牙，尽管我的身体再次发出所有信号，但我只是继续前进。

Andy Johns: For anyone who's listening to this, especially for the folks who haven't, go get the book, The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk.

安迪·约翰斯（Andy Johns）：对于任何正在听这个的人，尤其是那些没有听过的人，请去读贝塞尔·范德科尔克（Bessel van der Kolk）写的《身体保持分数》这本书。

He's a expert clinician who's worked with trauma patients for decades, and the entire book is basically one big message saying, "Hey, when mental health presents itself, look to the body because it's the body that is keeping the score." It's the body that's the scoreboard, and it's the body that is actually holding on to all of this shit you've been carrying for years, and eventually, the body breaks in the form of chronic disease and illness and so on and so forth.

他是一位专业临床医生，与创伤患者一起工作了数十年，整本书基本上都是一个重要信息，说：“嘿，当心理健康出现时，看看身体，因为是身体在记录分数。”身体就是记分牌，身体实际上承载着你多年来携带的所有这些东西，最终，身体以慢性病和疾病等形式崩溃。

Lenny: Today's episode is brought to you by Miro, an online collaborative whiteboard that's designed specifically for teams like yours.

Lenny：今天的节目是由 Miro 为您带来的，Miro 是一款专为像您这样的团队设计的在线协作白板。

The best way to see what Miro is all about and how it can help your team collaborate better is not to listen to me talk about it, but to go check it out for yourself.

要了解 Miro 的全部内容以及它如何帮助您的团队更好地协作，最好的方法不是听我谈论它，而是亲自去检查一下。

Go to miro.com/lenny.

访问 miro.com/lenny。

With the help of the Miro team, I created a super cool Miro board with two of my own favorite templates, my one pager template and my managing up template that you can plug and play and start using immediately with your team.

在 Miro 团队的帮助下，我创建了一个超级酷的 Miro 板，其中包含我自己最喜欢的两个模板，即我的寻呼机模板和我的管理模板，您可以即插即用并立即开始与您的团队一起使用。

I've also embedded a handful of my favorite templates that other people have published in the Miroverse.

我还嵌入了一些我最喜欢的模板，这些模板是其他人在 Miroverse 中发布的。

When you get to the board, you can also leave suggestions for the podcast, answer a question that I have for you, and generally just play around to get a sense of how it all works.

当您到达看板时，您还可以为播客留下建议，回答我为您提出的问题，并且通常只是尝试一下以了解这一切是如何运作的。

Lenny: Miro is a killer tool for brainstorming with your team, laying out your strategy, sharing user research findings, capturing ideas, giving feedback on wireframes, and generally just collaborating with your colleagues.

Lenny：Miro 是一个杀手级工具，可以与您的团队进行头脑风暴、制定策略、分享用户研究结果、捕获想法、提供线框图反馈以及通常与同事合作。

I actually used Miro to collaborate with the Miro team on creating my own board, and it was super fun and super easy.

实际上，我使用 Miro 与 Miro 团队合作创建了我自己的开发板，这非常有趣且非常简单。

Go check it out at miro.com/lenny.

请访问 miro.com/lenny 进行查看。

That's M-I-R-O dot com slash Lenny.

那是 M-I-R-O . com 斜线莱尼。

Lenny: We've talked about the suffering step, then the understanding the truth of what is going on.

莱尼：我们已经讨论了痛苦的步骤，然后是了解正在发生的事情的真相。

Say someone sits down in a room, writes out what's going on, has this epiphany of, "Oh, wow, it's really this moment in my childhood that really led me to need to achieve and do all these things." The next step is self-compassion and recognizing that it's not your fault.

假设有人坐在房间里，写下正在发生的事情，顿悟到，“哦，哇，这真的是我童年的这一刻，真正引导我需要实现并做所有这些事情。”下一步是自我同情并认识到这不是你的错。

That sounds very easy on the surface like, "Okay.

表面上听起来很简单，就像“好吧。

I understand this is not my fault." I know it's not that easy.

我明白这不是我的错。”我知道这并不容易。

How do you go about actually deeply doing that steps?

您如何真正深入地执行这些步骤？

Andy Johns: It's likely this deeply internalized self-belief.

安迪·琼斯：很可能是这种深深内化的自信。

You can think of that as one of the deepest grooves in the neural pathways in your mind.

你可以将其视为你头脑中神经通路中最深的凹槽之一。

Now, that was the case for me, so deep that you don't even realize that it's there, it's omnipresent.

现在，这就是我的情况，如此深刻，以至于你甚至没有意识到它的存在，它无处不在。

It's going to take time to rewire that because what you're effectively trying to do is take an internal narrative and edit and rewrite that thing, and this internal narrative is probably at a foothold in you for years or decades.

重新连接它需要时间，因为你有效地尝试做的是采用内部叙述并编辑和重写该内容，而这种内部叙述可能会在你体内扎根数年或数十年。

So it's reasonable to believe or to understand that, "Okay.

因此，有理由相信或理解“好吧。

If I have not had a high opinion of myself for 30 years, that's not going to change overnight."

如果我三十年来都没有对自己有很高的评价，那么这不会在一夜之间改变。”

Andy Johns: For some people, it miraculously does.

安迪·琼斯：对于某些人来说，这是奇迹般的。

That's not the norm.

这不是常态。

For most others, including myself, it starts with that truth stage because with truth is the awareness, "Okay.

对于大多数其他人，包括我自己，它从真理阶段开始，因为真理就是意识，“好吧。

I understand that I have a low sense of self-worth, and I understand that it plays out in all these ways, and I have the awareness of it that now when I'm doing something that is a conditioned behavior or a conditioned response born out of that deep self-belief or that negative core belief, then when I spot it, there's an opportunity for me to intervene," and it starts in the simple ways.

我知道我的自我价值感很低，我知道它会以所有这些方式表现出来，而且我意识到，现在当我做某件事是一种条件行为或条件反应，是出于深深的自我信念或消极的核心信念而产生的，那么当我发现它时，我就有机会进行干预，”它以简单的方式开始。

Andy Johns: For example, I had a boss once where he would come over and he would give me praise all the time.

安迪·约翰斯：例如，我曾经有一个老板，他会过来并且一直称赞我。

He was wonderful human being, and I think I was doing a good job.

他是一个很棒的人，我认为我做得很好。

One day, he swung by, he said, "Hey, amazing job," and my response was, "Oh, yeah, I did my best," and then he looked at me and he said, "Hey, say thank you or you're welcome.

有一天，他走过来说，“嘿，干得很棒”，我的回答是，“哦，是的，我尽力了，”然后他看着我说，“嘿，说声谢谢，否则不客气。

That's it.

就是这样。

When somebody gives you a compliment, just say thanks, accept it." So it's become a pattern of mine now that if somebody gives me a compliment, I look them in the eyes and I say, "Thank you," and I really try and embrace that little moment because it's in all of those ways where you identify these little patterns, you intercept them, and you choose to make a change to how you're conditioned to behave in that moment.

当有人赞美你时，只要说声谢谢，接受它。”所以现在这已经成为我的一种模式，如果有人给我赞美，我会看着他们的眼睛说：“谢谢你”，我真的尝试着拥抱那个小时刻，因为通过所有这些方式，你可以识别这些小模式，你拦截它们，你选择改变你在那一刻习惯的行为方式。

If you do that consistently enough and you keep practicing it, and you keep it up every day, then you're developing a new internal narrative through all those little actions, and it accumulates in ways that are pretty powerful.

如果你足够持续地这样做，并且不断练习，每天都坚持下去，那么你就会通过所有这些小动作发展出一种新的内部叙事，并且它会以非常强大的方式积累。

Andy Johns: Every now and then, there's things that you can do that are more of a brute force method of driving that home.

安迪·约翰斯（Andy Johns）：时不时地，你可以做一些更多是用蛮力方法来实现目标的事情。

Some may find it through a Vipassana retreat, a seven to 10-day silent retreat, which is agonizing if folks haven't tried to be that quiet that long.

有些人可能会通过内观静修找到它，这是一个为期七到十天的静修，如果人们没有尝试保持那么长时间的安静，那就会很痛苦。

Things bubble up, you confront the stuff in your mind that in our day-to-day, it's easy to just keep it under the hood.

事情会冒泡，你会面对脑海中的一些东西，而在我们的日常生活中，很容易将其隐藏起来。

Some find that through psychedelics.

有些人通过迷幻药发现了这一点。

Some find that through somewhat extreme physical feats.

有些人通过有些极端的身体壮举发现了这一点。

Andy Johns: There was a period in time where I didn't realize this at the time, but not only was I building my career, but I was running ultra marathons.

安迪·琼斯：有一段时间我当时没有意识到这一点，但我不仅在建立自己的职业生涯，而且还在跑超级马拉松。

Looking back at that I was like, "Yeah, there I was, another desperate attempt to feel worthy," but I also recognize now that that was medicine for me, that me going out onto a remote mountain range for five hours every Saturday and just running well beyond the point of discomfort was consistently cathartic for me.

回想起来，我当时想，“是的，我就在那里，又一次绝望地试图感觉自己是有价值的，”但我现在也认识到，这对我来说是一剂良药，我每周六去一座偏远的山脉上跑五个小时，只是跑到远远超​​出不适的程度，这对我来说始终是一种宣泄。

I would cry at the end of almost every single one of those runs.

几乎每一次跑步结束时我都会哭。

So it's just a recap.

所以这只是一个回顾。

It's in those little moments and sometimes in those big moments too, but it begins with the awareness based on truth and then the daily practice.

它发生在那些小时刻，有时也发生在那些重大时刻，但它始于基于真理的意识，然后是日常实践。

Lenny: How long does this process often take for people that you've worked with?

莱尼：对于与你共事过的人来说，这个过程通常需要多长时间？

Andy Johns: There are some famous figures that you can turn to.

安迪·约翰斯：你可以向一些著名人物求助。

For example, Eckhart Tolle.

例如，埃克哈特·托尔。

He wrote The Power of Now, which he's probably most famous for.

他写了《当下的力量》，这可能是他最著名的作品。

He's a great Western spiritual teacher of Eastern traditions.

他是东方传统的一位伟大的西方精神导师。

He went through immense suffering himself.

他自己也经历了巨大的痛苦。

Actually, the suffering was so great that for him it led to a somewhat sudden and spontaneous collapse of his sense of identity.

事实上，这种痛苦是如此之大，以至于对他来说，这导致他的身份感突然而自发地崩溃了。

Doctors would probably say psychosis, and what he actually had was a spiritual liberation, liberation from his mind, but he describes it himself.

医生可能会说是精神病，而他实际上得到的是一种精神上的解放，从他的思想中解放出来，但他自己描述了这一点。

In reading his book and listening to some of his lectures and talking about his own journey, he wrote this at, I think, in the first chapter or the preface of The Power of Now when he described the suffering that he was experiencing and the sudden collapse of this sense of identity, and then waking up the next day and feeling this deep sense of peace and freedom for the first time in his life.

在读他的书、听他的一些讲座、谈论他自己的旅程时，我想，他是在《当下的力量》的第一章或序言中写下这段话的，当时他描述了他正在经历的痛苦和这种认同感的突然崩溃，然后第二天醒来，他一生中第一次感受到这种深深的平静和自由。

Andy Johns: Then his journey continued to unfold.

安迪·琼斯：然后他的旅程继续展开。

He eventually started to research to try and understand, "What had just happened to me?

他最终开始研究并试图理解，“我刚刚发生了什么？

What experience did I have?" and dot, dot, dot.

我有什么经历？”还有点，点，点。

Seven years later, he woke up one day and realized he was now a spiritual teacher, seven years.

七年后的一天，他醒来，意识到自己现在是一名精神导师，七年了。

It's not that the journey had ended, but to use a metaphor of two mountains and a valley, that first mountain in his life when he got off of that mountain and he entered this valley, between the first mountain of life and the second mountain of life, the valley that he was in that sat between the old sense of self and then this new sense of self as a spiritual teacher, that valley was seven years for him.

并不是说旅程结束了，而是用两座山和一个山谷来比喻，当他下了那座山，进入这个山谷时，他生命中的第一座山，在生命的第一座山和第二座生命山之间，他所处的山谷位于旧的自我意识和作为精神导师的新自我意识之间，那个山谷对他来说是七年。

Andy Johns: There are many other examples I can pull up like that, including Siddhartha Gautama, Lord Buddha himself.

安迪·约翰斯：我还可以举出很多其他这样的例子，包括释迦牟尼佛本人。

That wasn't a couple weeks or a couple of months, his journey towards liberation from his own mind.

那不是几周或几个月，他从自己的思想中解放出来的旅程。

If I can recall, that was also a seven or eight-year journey.

如果我记得的话，那也是一段七八年的旅程。

So these big shifts on a cosmic universal scale, it's instantaneous, right?

所以宇宙普遍规模上的这些重大转变是瞬时的，对吧？

On the scale of-

规模为-

Andy Johns: Yeah.

安迪·琼斯：是的。

On the scale of 13 billion years, it's instant, but from our perspective, it's not.

在130亿年的尺度上，它是瞬间的，但从我们的角度来看，它不是。

It feels a lot longer than that.

感觉比那要长很多。

Lenny: I want to close the loop on these four steps that you shared, and the one we haven't talked about yet is the last one, which is building compassion towards others.

莱尼：我想结束你分享的这四个步骤，我们还没有讨论最后一个步骤，即建立对他人的同情心。

How do you go about that just broadly?

您如何大致解决这个问题？

I know we're not going to solve that problem for people in the podcast.

我知道我们不会为播客中的人们解决这个问题。

Andy Johns: For me, my experience was that it happened automatically.

安迪·琼斯：对我来说，我的经验是它会自动发生。

When you do the first three, it is the result.

当你完成前三项时，这就是结果。

It's the thing that comes out of step number three itself because, again, when you dig deep enough and you keep searching for the truth, you're like Captain Ahab going down with the white whale in Moby Dick.

这就是第三步本身产生的结果，因为，当你挖掘得足够深并不断寻找真相时，你就像《白鲸》中的亚哈船长与白鲸一起沉没。

That is what that book is about.

这就是那本书的内容。

It's not about a fisherman going after a whale.

这不是一个渔夫追捕鲸鱼的故事。

This is the author himself through a story talking about his own journey of emotional and spiritual liberation.

这是作者本人通过一个故事讲述自己的情感和精神解放之旅。

Andy Johns: There are many people that would, experts and historians that might disagree with that, and I would disagree with them that it's a story of seeking the truth at all costs to liberate oneself, including being willing to die for that whale, metaphorically, because at the end of the book, they don't really reveal.

安迪·约翰斯：有很多人、专家和历史学家可能不同意这一点，我也不同意他们的观点，他们认为这是一个不惜一切代价寻求真相以解放自己的故事，包括愿意为那头鲸鱼而死，隐喻性的，因为在书的结尾，他们并没有真正透露。

Did Ahab actually go down with the whale and never come back?

亚哈真的和鲸鱼一起沉入海底，再也没有回来吗？

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't.

也许他做到了，也许他没有。

Andy Johns: So when you have suffered enough and the search for the truth becomes the only thing that matters and that truth leads you to understanding that, "It's okay.

安迪·约翰斯：所以，当你受够了痛苦，寻找真相就成为唯一重要的事情，真相会让你明白，“没关系。

I can accept myself for who I am and it's not all my fault," when that has been done in earnest and when you feel those moments of love for yourself, it suddenly changes how you see everybody else.

我可以接受自己本来的样子，这并不全是我的错。”当你认真地做到这一点，当你感受到爱自己的时刻时，你看待其他人的方式就会突然改变。

For me, step four was the easiest because it just happened.

对我来说，第四步是最简单的，因为它就这样发生了。

It happened after eight years, nine years of my own on and off mental health journey, but it finally happened.

这件事发生在我断断续续的心理健康之旅八年、九年之后，但它终于发生了。

Lenny: People who are listening to this say they're a VP of Product and they're like, "I don't want to become a spiritual teacher.

莱尼：听这个的人说他们是产品副总裁，他们会说，“我不想成为一名精神导师。

I want to stay on this path.

我想继续走这条路。

I want to have a successful career.

我想拥有一个成功的职业生涯。

I want to continue to make a bunch of money." How often do you find there's a path to stay on that path with a rejiggering of how you see the world or does it, if you're suffering enough, does it almost always lead to something completely different in your experience?

我想继续赚大钱。”你是否经常发现，有一条路可以让你继续走下去，并重新调整你看待世界的方式，或者，如果你受够了痛苦，它是否总是会导致你的经历完全不同？

Andy Johns: Again, it's a spectrum.

安迪·琼斯：再说一遍，这是一个频谱。

What I've experienced is that the vast majority of people who feel some tug to undergo a process of change, I'd say 90%, 95% of the time pretty confidently I can say that those changes are more of the micro transitions.

我的经历是，绝大多数人都感受到了某种推动力，想要经历一个变革的过程，我想说，90%、95%的时候，我可以非常自信地说，这些变化更多的是微观转变。

It's, "Okay.

是，“好吧。

Let me change my job.

让我换个工作吧

Let me downsize my house.

让我缩小我的房子。

Let me break up with my partner." Still hard things, and for them, that may be all that is needed and necessary.

让我和我的伴侣分手吧。”仍然是困难的事情，对他们来说，这可能就是所需要的和必要的。

There's no moral judgment on my side about everyone's got to dive into the deep end.

我对每个人都必须陷入困境没有道德判断。

That's certainly not the case, and I'm not advocating for it.

当然不是这样的，我也不提倡这样做。

I honestly don't even know if it's a choice.

老实说，我什至不知道这是否是一个选择。

There's a part of me that, based on some of the experiences I've had, believes that it was somewhat preordained and that this was going to happen for me, but it's in the minority of cases where the radical transformation of one's sense of identity takes place.

根据我的一些经历，我内心有一部分相信这在某种程度上是注定的，并且这会发生在我身上，但只有在少数情况下，一个人的身份感才会发生根本性的转变。

It's not common.

这并不常见。

My general sense is it's definitely less than 1% of the population, and I suspect that's just the way things are.

我的总体感觉是，这肯定不到总人口的 1%，而且我怀疑事情就是这样。

Lenny: One of those ends up being Buddha, and one of those ends up being Andy Johns.

莱尼：其中之一最终成为佛陀，其中之一最终成为安迪·约翰斯。

Andy Johns: Yeah, or another popular figure in Western spirituality is Pema Chödrön, who she's got a lot of great books.

安迪·约翰斯（Andy Johns）：是的，西方灵性中另一个受欢迎的人物是佩玛·乔德伦（Pema Chödrön），她有很多很棒的书。

One of them is titled When Things Fall Apart, some of the first books I read when things fell apart for me.

其中一本的标题是《当事情崩溃时》，这是我在事情崩溃时读的第一本书。

Her story, actually, she used to live in Berkeley, I think, but an American woman.

她的故事，实际上，我想，她曾经住在伯克利，但是一位美国女性。

She was married.

她已经结婚了。

First marriage didn't work out.

第一次婚姻并不顺利。

She got married again.

她又结婚了。

Second one didn't work out.

第二个没成功。

It ended in somewhat sudden and expected and catastrophic fashion.

它以某种突然、意料之中的灾难性方式结束。

Here she is with a few children and a broken heart again and deep emotional suffering, and that suffering was so great that it led her to ultimately say, "I must pursue these teachings and this spiritual tradition that I'm starting to wake up to in the Eastern traditions," with Buddhism in particular because she had suffered so much that she needed to find liberation from that.

在这里，她带着几个孩子，再次破碎的心和深深的情感痛苦，这种痛苦如此之大，以至于她最终说：“我必须追求这些教义和我开始在东方传统中觉醒的精神传统，”尤其是佛教，因为她遭受了如此多的痛苦，以至于她需要从中寻求解脱。

Andy Johns: In her case, that even meant separating, not all the time, but a significant portion of her time away from her own children who, if I recall correctly, were early teens timeframe.

安迪·约翰斯：就她而言，这甚至意味着她要花很大一部分时间与自己的孩子分开，虽然不是一直这样，但如果我没记错的话，孩子们已经十几岁了。

Now, I think that Pema Chödrön is the only female Buddhist nun in all of North America and is a very well-known spiritual teacher.

现在，我认为 Pema Chödrön 是整个北美唯一的女性佛教尼姑，也是一位非常知名的精神导师。

I also think her journey was somewhere around seven or eight years.

我还认为她的旅程大约有七八年。

Again, that's just the valley between two mountains.

再说一次，那只是两座山之间的山谷。

Truthfully, the journey continues for the rest of your life, but just another example I wanted to share.

说实话，这个旅程将伴随你的余生，但这只是我想分享的另一个例子。

Lenny: There's some obvious reasons why going down this path is difficult, why making change is hard.

莱尼：有一些明显的原因可以解释为什么走这条路是困难的，为什么做出改变是困难的。

What else would you say holds people back from making a big change in their life, and maybe on the flip side is just how do you allow change to happen?

您认为还有什么阻碍人们在生活中做出重大改变，也许另一方面就是您如何允许改变发生？

Andy Johns: A significant thing that holds people back from change is the inertia of civilization because we all experience a fundamental conflict in our life because when we're born, we have many needs, but there are two substantial needs that are immutable in everyone, especially children.

安迪·约翰斯：阻碍人们变革的一个重要因素是文明的惰性，因为我们在生活中都经历过根本性的冲突，因为当我们出生时，我们有很多需求，但有两个实质需求是每个人，尤其是儿童，都是不可改变的。

The first need is the need for love, acceptance, and connection for mammals.

第一个需要是对哺乳动物的爱、接受和联系的需要。

We have one of the longest gestation periods of the entire animal kingdom, and even when we're born, we're helpless, we can't survive.

我们是整个动物界中妊娠期最长的动物之一，即使我们出生时，我们也是无助的，我们无法生存。

We need nurturing for many, many more years afterwards in order to survive.

为了生存，我们需要很多年的培育。

Andy Johns: That goes hand-in-hand with our need for connection.

安迪·约翰斯：这与我们对联系的需求密切相关。

So we're biologically hardwired to need to be accepted and connected because it is perhaps the most essential thing to survival, more essential than water.

因此，我们在生物学上生来就需要被接受和联系，因为这可能是生存最重要的东西，比水更重要。

So we're born with that need.

所以我们生来就有这种需求。

Yet at the same time, we're also born as unique individuals.

但与此同时，我们也生来就是独特的个体。

Andy Johns: I read a study where the scientists estimated the probability that two sperm or two egg would be genetically identical.

安迪·约翰斯：我读到一项研究，科学家们估计了两个精子或两个卵子在基因上相同的概率。

For context, I think the average man generates in their prime somewhere around between 10 to 100 million sperm a day.

就背景而言，我认为平均男性在壮年时期每天会产生约 10 至 1 亿个精子。

So we generate a lot of sperm in our lifetime.

所以我们一生中会产生大量的精子。

The math that they came up with was that the probability of two sperm being identical is roughly 10 to the 15th power, which is a million times greater than the number of stars in the Milky Way galaxy.

他们得出的数学结果是，两个精子相同的概率大约为 10 的 15 次方，这比银河系中恒星数量还要多一百万倍。

There's somewhere between 100 to 400 billion stars in the galaxy.

银河系中有 100 到 4000 亿颗恒星。

So it's a million times greater than that.

所以它比这个大一百万倍。

So all that is to say is when you were born, you were unique.

所以这就是说，当你出生时，你是独一无二的。

There's never been a you before ever, and it's going to be a really, really long time or another dimension before another one of you shows up again.

以前从来没有出现过一个你，而且在你们中的另一个人再次出现之前，将需要非常非常长的时间或另一个维度。

Andy Johns: Then further through the socialization of life, we all have unique experiences, and those experiences are passed through this unique prism of our own mind and genetics to where we're further accentuated as individuals.

安迪·约翰斯：然后，通过生活的社会化，我们都有独特的经历，这些经历通过我们自己的思想和遗传的独特棱镜传递到我们作为个体的进一步强调。

So we're born with this fundamental need to be connected and to be loved, but we're also born with this need to be ourselves and to express ourselves.

因此，我们生来就有这种联系和被爱的基本需求，但我们也生来就有做自己和表达自己的需求。

What ends up happening though is the world that you're born into eventually conditions you away from the unique individual that you were, and that is the function of society.

但最终发生的事情是，你出生的世界最终会让你远离你曾经是的独特个体，这就是社会的功能。

Andy Johns: Society operates because enough people choose to agree on the same beliefs and ideas around the style of education, of raising children, of city planning, of millions of things.

安迪·约翰斯：社会之所以运作，是因为有足够多的人选择在教育方式、抚养孩子、城市规划以及数百万件事上达成相同的信念和想法。

So the substrate of society or the adhesive of it is shared belief.

因此，社会的基础或粘合剂是共同的信念。

So that's why I say the inertia of civilization or I should have said the inertia of society is because you're born into a world that begins to condition you at a very early age to act a certain way and not act a certain way, believe some things and don't believe others.

所以这就是为什么我说文明的惯性，或者我应该说社会的惯性，是因为你出生在一个世界，这个世界在很小的时候就开始限制你以某种方式行事或不以某种方式行事，相信某些事情而不相信另一些事情。

Andy Johns: Why am I a San Francisco Giants fan?

安迪·琼斯：为什么我是旧金山巨人队的球迷？

Well, because I grew up in a Giants family.

嗯，因为我是在巨人家庭长大的。

It's not like I was two years old and I picked the Giants.

这并不是说我两岁的时候就选择了巨人队。

It doesn't work that way.

事实并非如此。

What ends up happening then is, and this begins, again, really young.

最终发生的事情是，这再次开始，非常年轻。

You're two, three, four, five years old and the world around you, namely the adults in the world, start telling you who to be, and it begins to challenge or run into conflict with that individuality, but because our fear of not being accepted and loved is so great that what do we end up doing?

你两岁、三岁、四岁、五岁，你周围的世界，即世界上的成年人，开始告诉你要成为谁，它开始挑战你的个性或与你的个性发生冲突，但因为我们非常害怕不被接受和爱，所以我们最终会做什么？

We choose to push down our individuality in exchange for being accepted by the pack, beginning with our parents, and then our friends, and then our teachers, and then our bosses, and all of the other dimensions of society.

我们选择压制自己的个性，以换取被群体接受，从我们的父母开始，然后是我们的朋友，然后是我们的老师，然后是我们的老板，以及社会的所有其他层面。

Andy Johns: So we lose who we were before the world told us who to be.

安迪·琼斯：所以，在世界告诉我们要成为什么样的人之前，我们就失去了自己。

It's actually a Carl Jung quote, "The world will ask you who you are, and if you don't know, it'll tell you." So I would say that that is the number one reason why transformation doesn't take place.

这实际上是卡尔·荣格的名言，“世界会问你是谁，如果你不知道，它会告诉你。”所以我想说，这是转型没有发生的首要原因。

It's because a long time ago, we made that exchange to forego our individuality in order to be accepted by others because of that deep primal need for love and acceptance.

这是因为很久以前，我们出于对爱和接受的深刻原始需求而做出了放弃个性的交换，以便被他人接受。

In order to undertake that process of personal transformation, one of the truths you have to realize is that truth, that truth that you are in large part the way you are but because of what the world told you to be, and it's making the choice consciously to then say, "Fuck that, and I'm going to go against the grain and I'm going to now tell the world that I don't want its influence on me anymore, and I will, like Moby Dick or like Ahab going down with the white whale, I am willing to die to return to my individuality and to break free and to be who I want to be in the face of the currents around us regarding the messages around how we should think, live, act, and feel."

为了进行个人转变的过程，你必须认识到的一个事实是，你之所以是现在的样子，很大程度上是因为世界告诉你的，是有意识地做出选择，然后说：“操，我要违背常规，我现在要告诉世界，我不想再受到它的影响，我会像白鲸一样，或者像亚哈一样，与白鲸一起沉没，我我愿意用死来恢复我的个性，挣脱束缚，成为我想成为的人，面对我们周围关于我们应该如何思考、生活、行动和感受的信息。”

Andy Johns: So that is the thing that prevents transformation.

安迪·约翰斯：这就是阻碍转变的原因。

The simple thing is you could say fear, but what is the fear?

简单地说，你可以说恐惧，但恐惧是什么？

That is the fear.

这就是恐惧。

It's to say, "I'm going to walk my own path now and I'm going to be who I want to be, and I'm going to discover who I was before the world told me who to be, and by doing so, I run the risk that I'm not going to be accepted anymore." That's terrifying.

这就是说，“我现在要走自己的路，我要成为我想成为的人，我要发现在世界告诉我要成为谁之前我是谁，这样做，我就冒着不再被接受的风险。”太可怕了。

Lenny: Because it's so terrifying, I imagine that's why the suffering is so important to really feel that because, otherwise, why would you go down that path?

莱尼：因为它太可怕了，我想这就是为什么痛苦如此重要，要真正感受到这一点，否则，你为什么要走那条路呢？

It feels very hard.

感觉非常难。

Andy Johns: Yeah, and that gets to my point earlier around I'm not entirely convinced that this is an act of free will on my part.

安迪·约翰斯：是的，这就是我之前的观点，我并不完全相信这是我的自由意志行为。

There have been moments of me intervening and acting with free will, but I believe that there are also undercurrents that would fall into the realm of superstition for a lot of folks that this is the path that was laid out in front of me even before I was born.

有时候我会以自由意志进行干预和行动，但我相信也有一些暗流会陷入很多人的迷信领域，认为这是在我出生之前就铺在我面前的道路。

Lenny: Along those same lines, you wrote in one of your writings that at the end of the day, you're on your own to find what ends up alleviating your psychological suffering.

莱尼：同样的道理，你在一篇文章中写道，最终，你要靠自己找到最终减轻你心理痛苦的方法。

Can you speak to that?

你能谈谈吗？

Andy Johns: Yeah.

安迪·琼斯：是的。

That really ties in with this point of the uniqueness of people.

这确实与人的独特性这一点有关。

You have to find what works for you.

您必须找到适合您的方法。

For some people, it's going to be the ice bath thing.

对于某些人来说，这将是冰浴。

For others it's not.

对于其他人来说则不然。

Last year, a quick anecdote, I spent a month working at an animal sanctuary in northern Thailand for abused animals and neglected animals.

去年，我在泰国北部的一个动物保护区工作了一个月，专门收容受虐待和被忽视的动物。

This place is amazing.

这个地方太棒了。

They take in anything and they say, "We'll find a way," and that's what they do.

他们接受任何事情并说：“我们会找到办法”，这就是他们所做的。

So they have hundreds and hundreds of animals, including a large herd of elephants, which is pretty amazing.

所以他们有成百上千的动物，其中包括一大群大象，这是相当惊人的。

Andy Johns: There was a worker there who I met, and just by the expression on his face, I could tell that this was a liberated man.

安迪·琼斯：我在那里遇到了一个工人，从他脸上的表情我就知道这是一个解放了的人。

This was somebody who had figured out something that was contributing to his deep sense of peace.

这个人已经找到了一些有助于他内心深处平静感的东西。

So I went to talk with him.

于是我就去找他谈话。

I said, "Hey, something tells me that you figured out the secret to life and I'd like to chat." So we talked, and it turned out that half the time he was a farmer, he had a small little farm, an acre up on a hill in the mountains, and he'd work at his farm half the time and the other half he would then go and work at the animal sanctuary, and he was a practicing Buddhist.

我说：“嘿，有消息告诉我你找到了生命的秘密，我想和你聊聊。”于是我们聊了聊，结果发现他有一半时间是农民，他有一个小农场，在山上的一座小山上一英亩，他一半时间在农场工作，另一半时间去动物保护区工作，他是一名修行的佛教徒。

Andy Johns: One of the things he said to me really stood out.

安迪·琼斯：他对我说的其中一件事真的很引人注目。

He used a simple analogy.

他用了一个简单的比喻。

He said, "Everyone's trying to make it to Bangkok.

他说：“每个人都想到达曼谷。

The problem is they're getting to Bangkok by following somebody else's road.

问题是他们要走别人的路才能到达曼谷。

The whole point is to find your own path to Bangkok." He was making that same point or a similar point of you've got to find your own way.

重点是找到自己通往曼谷的道路。”他表达了同样或类似的观点，即你必须找到自己的方式。

That is the message.

这就是信息。

For me, I take that as maybe the most fundamental message in looking back at the story of the original Buddha himself was, sure, the teachings, the traditions, everything that's formed around his teachings has power and merit to it, but I look at what he did.

对我来说，我认为回顾原始佛陀本人的故事时，最基本的信息可能是教义、传统，围绕他的教义形成的一切都具有力量和优点，但我关注他所做的事情。

He was born as a prince into a royal family.

他作为王子出生于皇室。

Something wasn't right, and he was seeking the truth behind this anguish and this unfulfillment, and there was something inside of him that said, "I must seek the answer because growing up in this sheltered life as a prince, this can't be the answer."

有些事情不对劲，他正在寻找这种痛苦和不满足背后的真相，而他内心深处有某种东西在说：“我必须寻求答案，因为在这种受庇护的王子生活中长大，这不可能是答案。”

Andy Johns: So he left it all behind, including his wife and child, and then he lived as an aesthetic for years, nearly dying close to starvation.

安迪·琼斯：所以他把一切都抛在了身后，包括他的妻子和孩子，然后他以审美的方式生活了很多年，几乎快要饿死了。

He did that for years.

他这样做了很多年。

Then eventually he realized, "Well, that's not the answer either." Then he famously made his way to the Bodhi tree and sat under it and meditated for 40, 41 days.

最终他意识到，“好吧，这也不是答案。”然后，他来到菩提树下，静坐了 40、41 天。

I can't recall what it was, a long time.

我记不清那是什么了，很久了。

Then he had his enlightenment, and out of that came one of the teachings, which is known as the middle way.

然后他得到了开悟，并由此产生了一种教义，即所谓的中道。

It's not about being a prince, it's not about being poor.

这与成为王子无关，与贫穷无关。

There's something in between.

中间有一些东西。

He found that was his path to Bangkok.

他发现这就是他通往曼谷的道路。

You could walk that path and maybe it'll teach you something or it'll lead you nowhere because it's not your own path.

你可以走那条路，也许它会教给你一些东西，或者它不会带你到任何地方，因为这不是你自己的路。

I think that's the point.

我认为这就是重点。

Lenny: Andy, what a beautiful way to wrap up our conversation.

莱尼：安迪，结束我们谈话的方式真是太美妙了。

Before we do, is there anything else you want to share that you want to leave listeners with?

在我们开始之前，您还有什么想分享给听众的吗？

Then also, I'm just curious how you're doing these days.

另外，我只是好奇你这些天过得怎么样。

Andy Johns: Sure, sure.

安迪·琼斯：当然，当然。

Well, let me answer the first one, a message to leave to folks.

好吧，让我回答第一个问题，给大家留言。

I would imagine that there's a lot of high performers, successful folks out there.

我想象那里有很多表现出色、成功的人。

Some of you, you may feel like you're on the verge of answering a call towards a new chapter in life or towards finding a way out of whatever situation you're in that you don't want to be in anymore.

你们中的一些人可能会觉得自己即将响应人生新篇章的召唤，或者寻找摆脱目前不想再陷入的境地的方法。

The thing I guess I would say to you is that having undergone some change myself, all I can promise you is that it's going to be in some ways the best thing that's ever happened to you, but also the worst thing that's ever happened to you, but those are the experiences that define a life.

我想我要对你说的是，我自己经历了一些改变，我能向你保证的是，从某些方面来说，这将是你遇到过的最好的事情，但也是发生在你身上的最糟糕的事情，但这些都是定义生活的经历。

Andy Johns: If you feel that call inside of you to seek a new way of living, just know that you're not the only one out there doing it.

安迪·约翰斯（Andy Johns）：如果您觉得内心深处有一种召唤，要求您寻求一种新的生活方式，请知道您并不是唯一这样做的人。

There are others out there such as myself and that I can always be reached.

还有像我这样的其他人，并且随时可以联系到我。

So I wish you a happy journey and just know that things are going to be okay.

所以我祝你旅途愉快，并且知道一切都会好起来的。

Now, the second question, what am I up to nowadays?

现在，第二个问题，我现在在做什么？

Is that-

难道是——

Lenny: How are you doing?

莱尼：你好吗？

How are you doing on this journey?

这次旅程你过得怎么样？

Andy Johns: I'm good.

安迪·琼斯：我很好。

I still have my ups and downs.

我仍然有我的起伏。

I've arrived at an interesting part in my journey where it's something that I'm practicing now and I still don't quite have the hang of it.

我已经到达了我的旅程中一个有趣的部分，我现在正在练习它，但我仍然不太掌握它的窍门。

I'll use one more metaphor.

我再用一个比喻。

I think the way that I approached the first part of my life was as if life was a big mountain to be climbed, where you're trying to head up Everest under this assumption that once you get to the top, you're going to have this bliss that will persist or that will make you feel that you had a life well-lived, and that that was the answer, but what I experienced was that once I got to the top of one mountain, then I had to find the top of another and another and another.

我认为我生命的第一部分的方式就好像生活是一座需要攀登的大山，你试图在这样的假设下登上珠穆朗玛峰，一旦你到达顶峰，你就会拥有这种幸福，这种幸福会持续下去，或者会让你觉得你的生活过得很好，这就是答案，但我经历的是，一旦我到达一座山的山顶，然后我必须找到另一座山的山顶，然后又是另一座山。

Although you see and do some amazing things along the way, at some point it's too exhausting.

尽管一路上你看到并做了一些令人惊奇的事情，但有时还是太累了。

At some point, you may really get yourself into trouble and you might not survive.

到了某个时候，你可能真的会让自己陷入困境，甚至可能无法生存。

Andy Johns: The vast majority of people who die on Mount Everest actually die on the way down, not on the way up.

安迪·约翰斯：绝大多数死在珠穆朗玛峰的人实际上是死在下山的路上，而不是上山的路上。

You don't save anything for the return home, I think is the point.

我认为重点是，你不需要为回家存任何东西。

Instead of pursuing my life now as a mountain to be climbed in the hopes that reaching the top will make me feel good again, I'm instead trying to float down river.

现在我不再像一座待攀登的山峰那样追求生活，希望到达顶峰能让我再次感觉良好，而是尝试顺流而下。

So for example, if you go whitewater rafting, they'll give you a little safety crash course at the beginning.

例如，如果您去激流漂流，他们会在开始时为您提供一些安全速成课程。

They'll say, "Here's how you paddle.

他们会说：“这就是你划桨的方式。

Put your vest on." One of the things they'll ask you is, what do I do if I fall overboard, especially if I fall overboard into the rapids or the cold water?

穿上你的背心。”他们会问你的一件事是，如果我落水，特别是落入急流或冷水中，我该怎么办？

This is maybe the most important thing they teach because commonly what happens if you're in sizable enough rapids and you fall overboard, the tendency is to freak out and to fight the current.

这可能是他们教给我们的最重要的事情，因为如果你处于足够大的急流中并且掉入水中，通常会发生的情况是你会惊慌失措并与水流对抗。

When people freak out in the water, especially when the water's choppy, that's when they get in trouble.

当人们在水中惊慌失措时，尤其是当水波涛汹涌时，他们就会遇到麻烦。

Andy Johns: The thing they teach you to do is instead you go into mummy mode, right?

安迪·琼斯：他们教你做的事情就是进入木乃伊模式，对吗？

You lay back, you cross your arms across your chest, and you stick your feet out like you're a mummy, and you do the opposite of fighting the current.

你躺下来，双臂交叉在胸前，像木乃伊一样伸出双脚，你的做法与对抗水流相反。

You allow the current to take you where it's trying to take you.

你允许水流把你带到它想要带你去的地方。

For me, I actually find that I believe that that's a more fitting metaphor for life.

对我来说，我实际上发现我相信这是对生活的更合适的比喻。

It's possible that there's something amazing for us downstream so long as we're willing to surrender and just let go, to turn off the intellectual mind a bit, to quit trying to plan as if you can predict the future, to quit thinking about all the edge cases and trying to optimize our life, which I think is a bunch of bullshit.

只要我们愿意投降并放手，稍微关闭智力思维，不再试图像可以预测未来一样进行计划，不再考虑所有边缘情况并试图优化我们的生活，我认为这是一堆废话，下游的事情可能对我们来说是令人惊奇的。

It's possible that if you just relax and you instead pay attention to the signals around you, you feel where the current is trying to take you, maybe towards a potential life partner, maybe away from an oppressive work environment, maybe towards a place to live that is more calm and peaceful, whatever it may be.

如果你放松下来，转而关注周围的信号，你可能会感觉到潮流正试图带你去往何处，也许是去往一个潜在的生活伴侣，也许是远离压抑的工作环境，也许是去往一个更加平静与安宁的生活场所，无论它是什么。

Andy Johns: If you really tune in with yourself and pay attention to that current and you relax into it, you'll arrive at a destination that you were meant for.

安迪·约翰斯：如果你真正与自己协调一致，关注那股潮流，然后放松下来，你就会到达你注定要到达的目的地。

In a sense, that's what I did that has brought me to this conversation today.

从某种意义上说，这就是我所做的让我参加今天的谈话。

Instead of talking about investing in companies and what have you, I'm instead trying to connect with people on an entirely different level and help them make their own way downstream, so to speak.

可以这么说，我不是在谈论对公司的投资以及你拥有的东西，而是试图与完全不同层面的人们建立联系，并帮助他们在下游开辟自己的道路。

Andy Johns: So for me nowadays, that's how I'm living at the moment.

安迪·琼斯：对现在的我来说，这就是我现在的生活方式。

I'm actually in Vietnam.

其实我在越南。

Just got here about 10 days ago because it seemed like the current of life was taking me here right now.

大约十天前刚到这里，因为生活的潮流似乎正在把我带到这里。

It's likely that it's just the next lily pad towards wherever else I'm heading to, but I guess I'm in the mindset now where I'm willing to just surrender and see how it unfolds.

很可能这只是我要去的其他地方的下一片睡莲，但我想我现在的心态是愿意投降并看看它如何展开。

Lenny: The metaphor for that is they lost your luggage on the way to Vietnam, and we had to push back this recording a week.

莱尼：打个比方，他们在去越南的路上丢失了你的行李，我们不得不推迟一周录制这个节目。

Andy Johns: Yeah, that's right, that's right.

安迪·琼斯：是的，没错，没错。

My luggage was half a world away from me, and so when that happened, what could I do?

我的行李离我有半个世界远，那么当发生这种情况时，我能做什么呢？

I just said, "Okay.

我只是说：“好吧。

Well, I have shorts and a shirt on me that I can wear for the next three or four days," and that's what I did.

好吧，我身上有短裤和衬衫，我可以在接下来的三四天里穿，”这就是我所做的。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Andy, I think this might end up being one of the most meaningful episodes of the podcast.

安迪，我认为这可能最终成为播客中最有意义的剧集之一。

I think it's going to end up being a Trojan horse for people are coming here for advice on optimizing their product and growth, and they'll opt up rethinking their whole life, hopefully in a good way, maybe cause some suffering, maybe help people through suffering.

我认为这最终会成为特洛伊木马，因为人们来这里寻求优化他们的产品和增长的建议，他们会选择重新思考他们的整个生活，希望以一种好的方式，也许会造成一些痛苦，也许会帮助人们度过痛苦。

Thank you, Andy, so much for being here.

安迪，非常感谢你来到这里。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

You said people could reach out if they're going down this path and maybe need some help or advice.

你说，如果人们走这条路，可能需要一些帮助或建议，他们可以伸出援手。

So what's the best way for people to reach out, and then how can listeners be useful to you?

那么人们接触的最佳方式是什么，那么听众如何对你有用呢？

Andy Johns: Sure, a couple ways.

安迪·约翰斯：当然，有几种方法。

You can find me on Twitter, my username is Clues Dot Life, so C-L-U-E-S-D-O-T-L-I-F-E.

你可以在 Twitter 上找到我，我的用户名是 C​​lues Dot Life，所以 C-L-U-E-S-D-O-T-L-I-F-E。

You can also find me on LinkedIn, search for Andrew Johns, you'll find me on there.

您还可以在 LinkedIn 上找到我，搜索 Andrew Johns，您会在那里找到我。

You can check out my website Clues.Life.

你可以查看我的网站 Clues.Life。

It's a basic MVP, but it's an art project that's in process.

这是一个基本的 MVP，但它是一个正在进行中的艺术项目。

So those are a couple of ways that you can reach out.

因此，您可以通过以下几种方式进行联系。

In terms of ways you can help, you can't always tell who you're helping.

就您可以提供帮助的方式而言，您无法总是知道您在帮助谁。

When I sit behind my laptop and I write and I send my messages out into the world, other than getting some thumbs up here and there, you don't always know what impact you're having.

当我坐在笔记本电脑后面写作并向世界发送信息时，除了到处竖起大拇指之外，你并不总是知道自己会产生什么影响。

Andy Johns: Sometimes it's good to hear because, again, for me, this is part of me rewriting that internal narrative where I'm trying to do more work for the benefit of others as opposed to what it does for my bank account.

安迪·约翰斯：有时听到这个消息很好，因为对我来说，这是我重写内部叙述的一部分，我试图为他人的利益做更多的工作，而不是为我的银行账户做更多的工作。

So if part of this message has been beneficial to you, it would certainly put wind in my sails to hear that.

因此，如果此消息的部分内容对您有所帮助，那么听到这一点肯定会让我感到振奋。

So that would be one way to help.

所以这将是一种提供帮助的方式。

Lenny: What a great answer.

莱尼：多么好的答案啊。

So let's blow up the YouTube comments and send you some DMs and LinkedIn messages if people find this valuable.

因此，如果人们认为这很有价值，那么让我们炸毁 YouTube 评论并向您发送一些 DM 和 LinkedIn 消息。

Andy, thank you again so much for being here.

安迪，再次非常感谢你来到这里。

Andy Johns: Lenny, I appreciate it, man.

安迪·琼斯：莱尼，我很感激，伙计。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Bye, everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

再见，大家：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。