I’ve run 75+ businesses. Here’s why you’re probably chasing the wrong idea. | Andrew Wilkinson

Andrew Wilkinson: You don't want to walk into the gym on day one and try and deadlift 300 pounds.

安德鲁·威尔金森：你不会想第一天走进健身房并尝试硬拉 300 磅。

So when someone comes to me and they're a first time entrepreneur and they say, "I'm going to make the next great AI company," I think that is the equivalent.

因此，当有人来找我，他们是第一次创业时，他们说，“我要打造下一个伟大的人工智能公司”，我认为这也是一样的。

Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like you've actually started and run more companies than maybe anyone else in the world.

Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得你实际上创办和经营的公司比世界上任何其他人都多。

What is your best advice for coming up with a great startup idea?

对于想出一个伟大的创业想法，你最好的建议是什么？

Andrew Wilkinson: Charlie Munger, Warren Buffett's longtime business partner, has this amazing quote.

安德鲁·威尔金森：沃伦·巴菲特的长期商业伙伴查理·芒格有一句令人惊叹的名言。

Andrew Wilkinson: The biggest mistakes I've made have been going into business models where other people have repeatedly failed and thinking, I can do this better.

安德鲁·威尔金森：我犯过的最大错误就是进入了其他人一再失败的商业模式，并认为我可以做得更好。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's so funny to watch you on Twitter.

Lenny Rachitsky：在 Twitter 上看到你真是太有趣了。

Clearly you've become AI obsessed.

显然你已经对人工智能着迷了。

Andrew Wilkinson: It's like having the world's most reliable employee who costs $200 a month and works 24/7.

Andrew Wilkinson：这就像拥有世界上最可靠的员工，每月花费 200 美元，并且 24/7 工作。

So many knowledge work jobs are going to change massively.

许多知识工作岗位将发生巨大变化。

I think the fundamental question is, do all jobs just become a single prompt?

我认为最根本的问题是，所有的工作都只是一个提示吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Andrew Wilkinson.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：今天，我的客人是安德鲁·威尔金森。

Andrew is the co-founder and CEO of Tiny, a holding company that's often called the Berkshire Hathaway of the internet.

Andrew 是 Tiny 的联合创始人兼首席执行官，Tiny 是一家控股公司，通常被称为互联网界的伯克希尔·哈撒韦公司。

They own over 40 businesses ranging from Dribble to WeCommerce to the AeroPress coffee maker, and they focused on buying profitable businesses from founders and holding them for the long term.

他们拥有 40 多家企业，从 Dribble 到 WeCommerce，再到爱乐压 (AeroPress) 咖啡机，他们专注于从创始人手中购买盈利的企业并长期持有。

Andrew and his co-founder bootstrapped the business from zero to hundreds of millions of dollars in value, and Andrew personally was worth over $1 billion at one point.

安德鲁和他的联合创始人将公司的价值从零提升到了数亿美元，安德鲁个人的身价一度超过 10 亿美元。

In our wide-ranging conversation, we cover a bunch of strategies for coming up with a good business idea, what common business ideas you should avoid, his experience automating much of his work and life using AI, and what that means for employment in the near future.

在我们广泛的对话中，我们涵盖了一系列提出好的商业想法的策略、您应该避免哪些常见的商业想法、他使用人工智能实现大部分工作和生活自动化的经验，以及这对不久的将来的就业意味着什么。

Also, what he's learned about happiness and money and how they're not directly related, and also how getting diagnosed with ADHD and then taking SSRIs was the thing that most impacted his happiness in life.

此外，他对幸福和金钱的了解以及它们如何没有直接关系，以及如何被诊断患有 ADHD 然后服用 SSRIs 是对他生活幸福影响最大的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is both a powerful and also a very tactically useful conversation and I'm really excited for you to hear it.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一次强有力的对话，而且在战术上也非常有用，我真的很高兴你能听到它。

If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

Also, if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of a bunch of amazing products including Bolt, Linear, Superhuman, Notion, Perplexity, Granola and more.

此外，如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您将获得一年免费的一堆令人惊叹的产品，包括 Bolt、Linear、Super human、Notion、Perplexity、Granola 等。

Check it out at Lenny's newsletter.com and click bundle.

请访问 Lenny's newsletter.com 查看并单击“捆绑”。

With that, I bring you Andrew Wilkinson.

接下来，我为您带来安德鲁·威尔金森。

This episode is brought to you by Sauce.

本期节目由酱给大家带来。

The way teams turn feedback into product impact is stuck in the past, vague reports, static taxonomies, unactionable insights that don't move business metrics.

团队将反馈转化为产品影响的方式仍然停留在过去，模糊的报告、静态的分类法、无法改变业务指标的不可操作的见解。

The result, churn, lost deals, misgrowth.

结果就是客户流失、交易失败、增长不良。

Sauce is the AI product copilot that helps CPOs and product teams uncover business impact and act faster.

Sauce 是 AI 产品副驾驶，可帮助 CPO 和产品团队发现业务影响并更快采取行动。

It listens to your sales calls, support tickets, churn reasons, and lost deals, surfacing the biggest product issues and opportunities in real time.

它会听取您的销售电话、支持请求、客户流失原因和失去的交易，实时显示最大的产品问题和机会。

Lenny Rachitsky: It then routes them to the right teams to turn signals into PRDs, prototypes, and even code that drives revenue retention and adoption.

Lenny Rachitsky：然后将他们路由到合适的团队，将信号转化为 PRD、原型，甚至是推动收入保留和采用的代码。

That's why Whatnot, Linktree, Incident.io and Zip use Sauce one enterprise uncovered a product gap that unlocked $16 million ARR, another caught a issue and prevented millions in churn.

这就是 Whatnot、Linktree、Incident.io 和 Zip 使用 Sauce 的原因，一家企业发现了一个产品缺口，释放了 1600 万美元的 ARR，另一家企业发现了一个问题并防止了数百万人的流失。

You can too at sauce.app/lenny.

您也可以访问酱汁.app/lenny。

Sauce built for AI product teams, don't get left behind.

专为 AI 产品团队打造的 Sauce，不要落后。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Enterpret.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Enterpret 为您带来。

Enterpret is a customer intelligence platform used by a leading CXN product orgs like Canva, Notion, Perplexity, Strava, Hinge, and Linear to leverage the voice of the customer and build best-in-class products.

Enterpret 是一个客户智能平台，Canva、Notion、Perplexity、Strava、Hinge 和 Linear 等领先的 CXN 产品组织都使用 Enterpret 来利用客户的声音并构建一流的产品。

Enterpret unifies all customer conversations in real time, from Gong recordings to Zendesk, tickets to Twitter threads, and makes it available for your team for analysis and for action.

Enterpret 实时统一所有客户对话，从 Kong 录音到 Zendesk、门票到 Twitter 线程，并可供您的团队进行分析和采取行动。

What makes Enterpret unique is its ability to build and update a customer-specific knowledge graph that provides the most granular and accurate categorization of all customer feedback and connects that customer feedback to critical metrics like revenue and CSAT.

Enterpret 的独特之处在于它能够构建和更新特定于客户的知识图，该知识图提供所有客户反馈的最精细和准确的分类，并将客户反馈与收入和 CSAT 等关键指标联系起来。

If modernizing your voice of customer program to a generational upgrade is a 2025 priority, like customer-centric industry leaders like Canva, Notion, Perplexity, and Linear, reach out to the team at enterpret.com/lenny.

如果将您的客户之声计划现代化至代际升级是 2025 年的首要任务，就像 Canva、Notion、Perplexity 和 Linear 等以客户为中心的行业领导者一样，请通过 enterpret.com/lenny 与团队联系。

That's E-N-T-E-R-P-R-E-T.com/lenny.

那是 E-N-T-E-R-P-R-E-T.com/lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: Andrew, thank you so much for being here.

Lenny Rachitsky：安德鲁，非常感谢你来到这里。

Welcome to the podcast.

欢迎来到播客。

Andrew Wilkinson: Oh, thanks man, great to be here.

安德鲁·威尔金森：哦，谢谢伙计，很高兴来到这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: I've been wanting to chat with you for so long.

Lenny Rachitsky：我很久以来就想和你聊天了。

There's so much that I want to talk about and I want to start with a topic that I know that you think a lot about and that it's also in the minds of a lot of people, which is coming up with a great startup idea and this is something that a lot of people are thinking about right now because AI makes it so easy to actually build your idea into something real, and I feel like this is something you spent a lot of time thinking about.

我想谈的东西太多了，我想从一个话题开始，我知道你思考了很多，而且也在很多人的脑海中浮现出一个伟大的创业想法，这是很多人现在正在考虑的事情，因为人工智能让你很容易将你的想法变成现实，我觉得这是你花了很多时间思考的事情。

I feel like you've actually started and run more companies than, I don't know, maybe anyone else in the world.

我觉得你实际上创办和经营的公司比，我不知道，也许世界上任何其他人都多。

I feel like you're in the top a hundred, top 10, something like that.

我感觉你在前一百名，前十名之类的。

I don't know.

我不知道。

Does that feel right?

感觉对吗？

Andrew Wilkinson: I've definitely had a lot of experiences and I've probably started or been involved with 75 different projects or businesses where I've been a primary contributor and I wouldn't say that's anything to brag about because I've been an inch deep in a mile wide.

Andrew Wilkinson：我肯定有很多经验，我可能已经启动或参与了 75 个不同的项目或业务，我一直是其中的主要贡献者，我不会说这有什么值得吹嘘的，因为我已经一英寸深一英里宽。

So that's been in a lot of ways kind of my Achilles heel is I get too excited about ideas and I start too many businesses, but as a result I've seen almost every business model under the sun.

因此，从很多方面来说，我的致命弱点是我对想法过于兴奋，并且创办了太多的企业，但结果是我几乎见过阳光下的所有商业模式。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

Yeah, I think the benefit is for us is we get to learn from your experience.

是的，我认为对我们的好处是我们可以从您的经验中学习。

Let me just ask you this question, what is your best advice for coming up with a great startup idea?

让我问你这个问题，对于想出一个伟大的创业想法，你最好的建议是什么？

Andrew Wilkinson: Ultimately the best thing is something you're going to be interested in, but I think a mistake a lot of people make is they choose something that everybody is interested in.

安德鲁·威尔金森：最终最好的事情是你都会感兴趣的东西，但我认为很多人犯的一个错误是他们选择了每个人都感兴趣的东西。

So for example, they say I don't know anyone that has hadn't had the thought, man, I would love to start a really cool restaurant or I want to have a cool cafe or something.

例如，他们说我不知道任何人没有想过，伙计，我想开一家很酷的餐厅，或者我想开一家很酷的咖啡馆或其他什么。

And in reality, what they think about is how cool would it be to come up with an amazing logo or all fun stuff, design the menu and stuff.

事实上，他们想到的是，如果能想出一个令人惊叹的标志或所有有趣的东西，设计菜单之类的东西，那该有多酷。

But in reality, operating those businesses is miserable and it's also a very hard business because every morning millions of people wake up and they go, I should start a cafe.

但实际上，经营这些生意是痛苦的，也是一项非常艰难的生意，因为每天早上都有数百万人醒来，他们说，我应该开一家咖啡馆。

But on the flip side, almost nobody wakes up every morning and says, "You know what?

但另一方面，几乎没有人每天早上醒来都会说：“你知道吗？

I'd love to start a funeral home," or "I would like to start a pest control business," or "I should start software that helps people fill out forms for the government."

我很想开办一家殡仪馆”，或者“我想开办一家害虫防治公司”，或者“我应该开办一个可以帮助人们为政府填写表格的软件”。

Andrew Wilkinson: And Charlie Munger, Warren Buffett's longtime business partner, has this amazing quote.

安德鲁·威尔金森：沃伦·巴菲特的长期商业伙伴查理·芒格有一句令人惊叹的名言。

He says, "Fish where the fish are." And he gives this example, he says, "If you're a fisherman and you see a large pond and all around the pond, there's a whole bunch of fishermen and they're all elbowing each other out of the way.

他说：“有鱼的地方就钓鱼。”他举了一个例子，他说：“如果你是一名渔民，你看到一个大池塘，池塘周围有一大群渔民，他们都互相用肘部让开。

They're all using the best lures, the best fishing line, they all have amazing strategy.

他们都使用最好的鱼饵、最好的鱼线，他们都有令人惊叹的策略。

You actually want to walk off into the forest and find a small fishing hole with lots of fish and very little competition.

你实际上想走进森林，找到一个小钓鱼洞，里面有很多鱼，而且竞争很少。

And I think that's probably the most important thing in business is actually to find those niches where you can actually make real money because competition equals lower margin.

我认为商业中最重要的事情实际上可能是找到那些可以真正赚钱的利基市场，因为竞争等于较低的利润。

The more competitors there are, the lower your prices have to be and the more competitive the business is ultimately.

竞争对手越多，你的价格就越低，最终业务的竞争力就越强。

Lenny Rachitsky: It doesn't feel intuitive to go after small markets and to find niches.

Lenny Rachitsky：追求小市场并寻找利基市场并不直观。

So let's just follow that thread.

所以让我们跟随这个线索。

Well, why is that actually a source of some of the best ideas starting really small and niche?

好吧，为什么这实际上是一些最好的想法的来源，这些想法从小而小而小众？

Andrew Wilkinson: I don't necessarily think it has to be something that is small forever, but it has to be something that like I think about if you're a first time entrepreneur or a student or something, you don't want to walk into the gym on day one and try and deadlift 300 pounds.

安德鲁·威尔金森：我不一定认为它必须是永远很小的东西，但它必须是像我想的那样，如果你是第一次创业或学生或其他人，你不想在第一天走进健身房并尝试硬拉 300 磅。

So when someone comes to me and they're a first time entrepreneur and they say, "I'm going to make the next great AI company," or "I'm going to launch a new bank," or something like that, something that is very, very rigorous and complicated and highly competitive and regulated, I think that is the equivalent.

因此，当有人来找我，他们是第一次创业时，他们说，“我要打造下一个伟大的人工智能公司”，或者“我要创办一家新银行”，或者类似的东西，非常非常严格、复杂、高度竞争和监管的东西，我认为这是等价的。

I think you really want to take the baby weights and start slowly building your muscle.

我认为你真的想承受婴儿的重量并开始慢慢锻炼你的肌肉。

And I think about my own experience starting a business, I was so lucky because the first business I ever started my web design agency, which became Metalab, that was so easy and it worked immediately because all I had to do was know how to build websites and be able to talk to potential customers.

我想到我自己创业的经历，我很幸运，因为我创办的第一家公司是我的网页设计机构，后来成为Metalab，这非常简单，而且立即见效，因为我所要做的就是知道如何建立网站并能够与潜在客户交谈。

Andrew Wilkinson: And then once they said, "Yes, I will pay you $5,000," I just had to send them an invoice, do the work, and that was it.

安德鲁·威尔金森：然后，一旦他们说，“是的，我将付给你 5,000 美元”，我只需向他们发送发票，完成工作，就是这样。

It was a very simple business.

这是一件非常简单的事情。

And because of that, I got immediate positive feedback and I built my own narrative.

正因为如此，我立即得到了积极的反馈，并建立了自己的叙述。

And my narrative was, "I'm good at business, I can do this, keep going." And then I went off and I started taking my money that I made from that original business and that's when I fucked up.

我的叙述是，“我擅长做生意，我能做到，继续前进。”然后我就走了，开始拿走我从原来的生意中赚到的钱，就在那时我搞砸了。

So I went out and I started a pizzeria and I lost all my money.

所以我出去开了一家比萨店，然后我失去了所有的钱。

I started a designer cat furniture business, a online DJ school, a skin cream business, all of these things.

我创办了一家设计师猫家具公司、一所在线 DJ 学校、一家护肤霜公司，等等。

I've just lost all my money almost immediately, but because I had that first win I kept on going.

我几乎立刻就输掉了所有的钱，但因为我赢得了第一场胜利，所以我继续前进。

And I just think it's so critical that people choose a business where they get that initial win.

我只是认为，人们选择能够获得最初胜利的企业是非常重要的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, this is a great topic.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，这是一个很棒的话题。

This is just like how do you avoid creating a job for yourself that you hate?

这就像你如何避免为自己创造一个你讨厌的工作一样？

There's a lot of business opportunities and ideas that like, "Yeah, you can make this work," and then it works, and then you're stuck doing this thing running a restaurant.

有很多商业机会和想法，比如“是的，你可以让这件事成功”，然后它就成功了，然后你就不得不做这件事经营一家餐馆。

My wife tells a story where a friend started a coffee shop and then he's like, "I thought I was starting a coffee shop, but I'm just replacing milk and buying milk all day.

我的妻子讲了一个故事，一位朋友开了一家咖啡店，然后他说，“我以为我正在开一家咖啡店，但我只是取代牛奶并整天买牛奶。

That's my job now." So just kind of along those lines to help people avoid creating a beast that they didn't expect any advice for Just how to know this is maybe even though this may work and make money, you probably don't want to be spending your life doing this sort of business.

这就是我现在的工作。”所以，沿着这些思路，帮助人们避免创造出他们没有想到任何建议的野兽。只是如何知道这也许即使这可能有效并且赚钱，但你可能不想把你的一生花在这种生意上。

Andrew Wilkinson: So I just started a pressure washing business.

安德鲁·威尔金森：所以我刚刚开始了高压清洗业务。

I was speaking at a local business school and after I spoke, one of the kids walked up to me and he said, "Hey, I'm an entrepreneur.

我在当地一所商学院演讲，演讲后，其中一个孩子走到我面前说：“嘿，我是一名企业家。

I've started two or three businesses in the past doing landscaping and I'm not enjoying school." And so just on the spot, I said to him, "Why don't you drop out and we'll start a business together?" And I'd been cooking on this idea of a pressure washing business because I'd studied that industry a little bit and I knew a few friends who'd done it in other cities.

我过去开过两三家做园林绿化的生意，我不喜欢上学。”于是我当场对他说，“你为什么不退学，我们一起创业呢？”我一直在酝酿高压清洗业务的想法，因为我对这个行业进行了一些研究，而且我认识一些在其他城市做过这个行业的朋友。

And I had this unfair advantage, which is I owned a whole bunch of media properties where I could advertise it for free basically.

我有一个不公平的优势，那就是我拥有一大堆媒体资产，我基本上可以免费做广告。

And so we started this business and I think for him, he kind of had this moment of, do I really want to be washing people's driveways for the rest of my life?

所以我们开始了这项业务，我想对他来说，他有这样的时刻，我真的想在余生中清洗人们的车道吗？

Andrew Wilkinson: And what I said to him is, "Look, if this gets to scale, you'll never touch a pressure washer unless you want to." If the business can get big enough where you can have employees, he can just focus on sales or digital marketing or whatever aspect of the business that he really loves.

安德鲁·威尔金森：我对他说的是，“看，如果这种情况发展到一定规模，除非你愿意，否则你永远不会碰高压清洗机。”如果企业能够发展到足够大，可以拥有员工，他就可以专注于销售或数字营销或他真正喜欢的业务的任何方面。

And I think that's the biggest thing that a lot of entrepreneurs miss.

我认为这是很多企业家所错过的最重要的事情。

They say, "I don't want to do that for the rest of my life.

他们说：“我不想一辈子都这样。

I don't want to be in the back of a dry cleaner dry cleaning clothes." And to me it's just a question of scale.

我不想在干洗店后面干洗衣服。”对我来说，这只是一个规模问题。

I think the cafe is a great example because a cafe, if it doesn't get to a reasonable scale is just a job.

我认为咖啡馆是一个很好的例子，因为咖啡馆如果没有达到合理的规模，就只是一份工作。

Andrew Wilkinson: There's a big difference between a business and a job.

安德鲁·威尔金森：企业和工作之间有很大的区别。

I think if you could start a pressure washing business where you're the only employee, yeah, that's a job, but if you can get to a scale where you can drive 10 leads a day, then you don't have to do any of the pressure washing and you just do what you love.

我认为，如果你可以开始一项压力清洗业务，而你是唯一的员工，是的，这就是一份工作，但如果你能达到每天可以吸引 10 个潜在客户的规模，那么你就不必做任何压力清洗，你只需做你喜欢的事情。

So I think a lot of people have this kind of Protestant work ethic where they think, well, I've got to be the person to do everything.

所以我认为很多人都有这种新教的职业道德，他们认为，好吧，我必须成为做所有事情的人。

And I think they really need to lean into what I call lazy leadership, which is how do I get away from the things I hate as quickly as humanly possible?

我认为他们确实需要依靠我所说的懒惰领导力，这就是我如何尽快摆脱我讨厌的事情？

How do I be Teflon for tasks?

我如何使用 Teflon 来完成任务？

Lenny Rachitsky: It's interesting that this business is non-software related at all, this pressure washing business.

Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是，这项业务与软件无关，即压力清洗业务。

So I guess just for folks that are coming up with ideas, and I imagine most ideas are there's a pull to make it software oriented, something AI is going to help build for you and help you run.

所以我想，对于那些提出想法的人来说，我想大多数想法都是有动力使其面向软件，人工智能将帮助你构建并帮助你运行。

What's your calculus on just going down a direction of real world physical business, like a restaurant power washing business versus a software just like what are the benefits of that direction when should someone actually seriously think about doing a business like a power washing business?

您对现实世界实体业务的发展方向有何看法，例如餐厅电力清洗业务与软件，就像当有人真正认真考虑开展电力清洗业务之类的业务时，该方向的好处是什么？

Andrew Wilkinson: I think if someone's listening to this podcast, odds are they're someone who's kind of a digital native.

安德鲁·威尔金森：我认为如果有人正在听这个播客，他们很可能是数字原住民。

And I think the question is, what's your unfair advantage and what are you great at?

我认为问题是，你的不公平优势是什么？你擅长什么？

So for me, I think I have reasonably good taste.

所以对我来说，我认为我的品味相当不错。

And so what I could do is I identify and I knew enough to identify great design and development talent, but mostly I was lucky because I was a talker.

所以我能做的就是我识别并且我知道足够的信息来识别优秀的设计和开发人才，但最重要的是我很幸运，因为我是一个健谈的人。

I was good at meeting with clients and selling myself.

我擅长与客户会面并推销自己。

And so ultimately my highest and best use my superpower was sales.

所以最终我最大和最好的利用我的超能力就是销售。

And so that can be applied to anything, anything where you need to go out and you need to sell a customer.

因此，这可以应用于任何你需要走出去、需要向客户推销的任何事情。

And so really it just comes down to what do you get drawn to and then how do you find the profitable business within that?

所以实际上，这取决于你被什么吸引，然后你如何在其中找到有利可图的业务？

So here's an example.

这是一个例子。

A friend of mine, he owns a restaurant and he said, "Oh, I love it.

我的一个朋友拥有一家餐馆，他说：“哦，我喜欢它。

I'm so passionate about it.

我对此充满热情。

It's this stunning beautiful restaurant in my hometown."

这是我家乡的一家令人惊叹的美丽餐厅。”

Andrew Wilkinson: And he said, "But it's really just a job for a few different people and we can't make any money at it, but I've been noticing that there's all these vendors that service the restaurant and those guys are making a killing." And so he told me about a business that cleans grease traps, another one that cleans exhaust vents for kitchens.

安德鲁·威尔金森：他说，“但这实际上只是几个不同人的工作，我们赚不到任何钱，但我注意到有很多供应商为餐厅提供服务，而这些人正在赚大钱。”于是他告诉我一家清洁隔油池的公司，另一家清洁厨房排气口的公司。

So I think looking around and seeing where your passion is and then sniffing around within it, probably somewhere within your passion, there's an opportunity.

所以我认为环顾四周，看看你的激情在哪里，然后在其中嗅一嗅，可能在你激情的某个地方，有一个机会。

So for example, I love movies.

举例来说，我喜欢电影。

My happy place is a dark theater.

我快乐的地方是黑暗的剧院。

That's the best way for me to de-stress is go to a dark theater and watch a movie and get lost in it.

对我来说，最好的减压方式就是去一家黑暗的剧院看电影，然后沉浸其中。

And probably about four or five years ago, I was like, "Man, how cool would it be to invest in movies in some way to be a part of that creative world?"

大概四五年前，我就想，“伙计，如果能以某种方式投资电影，成为创意世界的一部分，那该多酷啊？”

Andrew Wilkinson: And so I started looking into funding movies and I realized that when you fund movies, like 90% of the time you lose all your money.

安德鲁·威尔金森：所以我开始研究资助电影，我意识到当你资助电影时，90% 的情况下你会损失所有的钱。

And even if you do make some money, you rarely make a good return.

即使你确实赚了一些钱，也很少能获得丰厚的回报。

But I spend a bunch of time understanding the industry and learning about it.

但我花了很多时间来了解这个行业并学习它。

And then two years ago I was in New Zealand and I met the founder of Letterboxd and I realized, "Oh my God, this is a business where this has a moat, so it has a network effect, it's a huge social network for film reviewers.

两年前，我在新西兰遇到了 Letterboxd 的创始人，我意识到，“天哪，这是一个有护城河的业务，因此它具有网络效应，对于电影评论家来说这是一个巨大的社交网络。

It's something I'm passionate about and it's something that we can buy at a fair price." All those things came together and I was like, "Oh my god, I can invest in film now." In the same way I used to be a barista, we ended up buying the AeroPress coffee maker company.

这是我热衷的东西，也是我们可以以合理的价格购买的东西。”所有这些事情结合在一起，我当时想，“天哪，我现在可以投资电影了。”就像我曾经是一名咖啡师一样，我们最终购买了爱乐压咖啡机公司。

So I follow my passions and spend a long time learning different industries and then I find the profitable niche within.

因此，我追随自己的热情，花了很长时间学习不同的行业，然后找到了有利可图的利基市场。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, and this is a great takeaway essentially when you're thinking about startup ideas, make sure there's some connection to something unique to you where you have some unfair advantage.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，这本质上是一个很好的收获，当你在考虑创业想法时，请确保与你拥有一些不公平优势的独特事物有某种联系。

This makes me think about Brian Armstrong.

这让我想起布莱恩·阿姆斯特朗。

I saw him do a talk once and he gave this really amazing insight about why Coinbase did well and why he started Coinbase.

我看过他做过一次演讲，他给出了关于 Coinbase 为何表现出色以及他创办 Coinbase 的真正令人惊叹的见解。

And it's because if you look at his background, he had this really rare Venn diagram of background of computer science and I think it was cryptography and economics, which is the exact set of skills you need to start something like Coinbase.

这是因为如果你看一下他的背景，你会发现他拥有非常罕见的计算机科学背景维恩图，我认为这是密码学和经济学，这正是你开始像 Coinbase 这样的东西所需要的技能。

So I think the tip there is just what is that unique Venn diagram of skills in your background and just ideally what you're building connects to that and gives you an unfair advantage.

所以我认为秘诀就是你的背景中独特的技能维恩图是什么，以及理想情况下你正在构建的东西与之相关并给你带来不公平的优势。

Andrew Wilkinson: Well, yeah.

安德鲁·威尔金森：嗯，是的。

I just met another UVic student at the local university student.

我刚刚在当地大学认识了另一位维多利亚大学的学生。

She is interested in marketing and so she's gone out and she's found some local clients, so small restaurants and stuff and managed their social media and she said, "Yeah, it's okay.

她对营销感兴趣，所以她出去找到了一些当地客户，比如小餐馆之类的东西，并管理他们的社交媒体，她说，“是的，没关系。

I can make a thousand bucks a month, but it's a lot of work," and the owners really want a lot for their money.

我每个月可以赚一千美元，但这需要大量的工作，”业主们确实想要很多钱。

And I said, "Well, if you just pivot that idea just ever so slightly, and instead of doing restaurants, you did realtors or wealth managers who have quite a large marketing budget and are used to spending serious money and it only has to work a little bit to make a lot of money for them.

我说：“好吧，如果你稍微改变一下这个想法，你不做餐馆，而是做房地产经纪人或财富经理，他们有相当大的营销预算，习惯于花大钱，只需要一点点工作就可以为他们赚很多钱。

Those people, you can charge $5,000 a month."

那些人，你每个月可以收取 5000 美元的费用。”

Andrew Wilkinson: So I think often it's you find your passion, your skill set, you zero in, and then you just kind of pivot and you find the most profitable way to do it.

安德鲁·威尔金森：所以我认为通常是你找到了你的激情、你的技能、你归零，然后你就找到了最有利可图的方法来做到这一点。

When I started my web design firm, I started mostly with local and small projects, but very quickly I found a job board in San Francisco where startups would share projects they needed help with.

当我创办我的网页设计公司时，我主要从本地和小型项目开始，但很快我在旧金山找到了一个工作委员会，初创公司会在那里分享他们需要帮助的项目。

I could charge five times the amount for five times less work.

我可以收取五倍的费用，但工作量却减少五倍。

Lenny Rachitsky: This point about fish where the fish are I think is really important.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为关于鱼在哪里的这一点非常重要。

You can start something that's awesome that you love, that you're so excited about, but nobody needs it.

你可以开始做一些你喜欢、让你兴奋的很棒的事情，但没有人需要它。

Talk a bit more about just what that looks like.

多谈谈它的样子。

What have you seen when you're thinking about ideas that tell you that there's fish but also not overfished as you pointed out?

当你思考那些告诉你有鱼但又没有像你指出的那样过度捕捞的想法时，你看到了什么？

Andrew Wilkinson: I think it's hard like Warren Buffett has this great quote, "I'm a better businessman because I'm an investor and I'm a better investor because I'm a businessman." And I feel like in order to know what problems are valuable to solve, you kind of need to have valuable problems.

安德鲁·威尔金森：我认为很难像沃伦·巴菲特那样有一句名言：“我是一个更好的商人，因为我是一名投资者；我是一个更好的投资者，因为我是一名商人。”我觉得为了知道哪些问题是有价值的，需要解决，你需要有有价值的问题。

So it's a bit of a hard thing because I remember when I was like 20, I would say, I hate how all the cat furniture I can buy for my cats is I bet people would pay a lot of money to solve this, but I didn't understand anything about the realities of that business model.

所以这是一件有点困难的事情，因为我记得当我 20 岁的时候，我会说，我讨厌我能为我的猫购买的所有猫家具，我打赌人们会花很多钱来解决这个问题，但我对这种商业模式的现实一无所知。

I didn't understand how little people were actually willing to pay.

我不明白实际上愿意付钱的人有多么少。

I didn't have a enough life experience to go, "Yes, that's actually a worthwhile opportunity." And I think that being able to know what people would pay to solve the problem realistically is incredibly valuable.

我没有足够的生活经验去说：“是的，这实际上是一个值得的机会。”我认为，能够知道人们愿意付出什么代价来实际解决问题是非常有价值的。

Andrew Wilkinson: So my example of a realtor selling a house, because I've studied that industry, I know that a realtor can make like 20 to $50,000 selling a single house.

安德鲁·威尔金森：我以房地产经纪人出售房屋为例，因为我研究过该行业，我知道房地产经纪人出售一栋房屋可以赚取 20 到 50,000 美元。

So I can intuit that they'd be willing to spend a lot of money if I have a unique way of getting them clients that'll buy houses that'll convert at a high conversion rate that is worth $5,000 a lead maybe, right?

因此，我可以凭直觉知道，如果我有一种独特的方式让他们的客户购买能够以高转化率转化的房屋（可能每条线索价值 5,000 美元），他们会愿意花很多钱，对吗？

So I think you kind of have to understand the problem in depth before you really know.

所以我认为你必须先深入了解这个问题，然后才能真正了解。

Because when I was starting out, I would go down every rabbit trail, every infomercial idea I had I would think was genius.

因为当我刚开始的时候，我会仔细研究每一条兔子踪迹，每一个我认为是天才的电视广告创意。

Lenny Rachitsky: Or people, I don't know, that don't have this experience, which is most people.

Lenny Rachitsky：或者我不知道，没有这种经历的人，也就是大多数人。

Is there one thing you do, maybe a heuristic that gives you a sense, maybe there's something here, maybe there's a lot of fish, maybe it's a value of prompt or no, the soul tell me it probably isn't.

你是否做了一件事，也许是一种启发式的，给你一种感觉，也许这里有东西，也许有很多鱼，也许它是提示或否的值，灵魂告诉我它可能不是。

Andrew Wilkinson: No, unfortunately, I think it's mostly gut.

安德鲁·威尔金森：不，不幸的是，我认为这主要是直觉。

I mean Munger and Buffett talk about having a whole bunch of mental models in your brain and they form a latticework, right?

我的意思是芒格和巴菲特谈到你的大脑中有一大堆心理模型，它们形成了一个网格，对吗？

And they all kind of piece together.

他们都拼凑在一起。

And I feel like for me, there's so much of this that is, it's almost like I'm an AI model and I've trained on all this data of what works and what doesn't and what's a good moat and what's a bad business, et cetera.

我觉得对我来说，有很多这样的事情，这几乎就像我是一个人工智能模型，我已经接受了所有这些数据的训练，什么有效，什么无效，什么是好的护城河，什么是坏的业务，等等。

And when I see it, I just immediately know.

当我看到它时，我立刻就知道了。

I mean, I think all entrepreneurs are so lucky now to be able to go into Claude or ChatGPT and just say, "Hey, I'm thinking about starting a Botox clinic.

我的意思是，我认为现在所有的企业家都很幸运，能够进入 Claude 或 ChatGPT，然后说：“嘿，我正在考虑开一家 Botox 诊所。

Can you break down the numbers?

你能分解一下数字吗？

Is this a good business?

这是一门好生意吗？

What's hard about it?

这有什么难的呢？

What is the regulatory moat?

什么是监管护城河？

What would my payroll look like?" I didn't have any of that and so I started so many incredibly stupid businesses, but I think there's no excuse at this point.

我的工资单会是什么样子？”我没有任何这些，所以我开始了很多令人难以置信的愚蠢的生意，但我认为在这一点上没有任何借口。

You should be able to do it with AI.

你应该能够用人工智能来做到这一点。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a really good tip actually.

Lenny Rachitsky：这实际上是一个非常好的建议。

Then there's this point you made about boring is good.

然后你提到的“无聊是好的”这一点。

That's a really good piece of advice.

这确实是一个很好的建议。

A lot of people are going after flashy stuff, things they condemn on Twitter.

很多人都在追求华而不实的东西，他们在 Twitter 上谴责的东西。

Your advice here is boring is actually a really good thing because fewer people are going after it.

你在这里的建议很无聊，实际上是一件好事，因为更少的人追求它。

Is that the general tip?

这是一般提示吗？

Andrew Wilkinson: Totally.

安德鲁·威尔金森：完全可以。

I mean, so I started this business, one of my first called Flow and Flow was basically Asana before Asana came out.

我的意思是，所以我开始了这项业务，在 Asana 出现之前，我的第一个名为 Flow 和 Flow 的业务基本上就是 Asana。

So it was a way to manage your to-do's and projects with your team in a web app and we basically did the thing.

因此，这是一种在网络应用程序中与您的团队一起管理待办事项和项目的方法，我们基本上做到了这一点。

We made the mistake that so many entrepreneurs make, which is to go after an industry that everybody goes after just like cafes.

我们犯了很多企业家都会犯的错误，那就是去追求一个像咖啡馆一样人人都追求的行业。

Everybody has the idea, man, I wish I could design my own project management system or my own to-do system.

每个人都有这样的想法，伙计，我希望我可以设计自己的项目管理系统或自己的待办事项系统。

And not only that, but everybody loves new things.

不仅如此，每个人都喜欢新事物。

They love jumping around.

他们喜欢跳来跳去。

I know me personally, in the last three years, I've probably used three different productivity systems and I love jumping around in them and I didn't understand that and I ended up losing $10 million trying to compete with venture-backed businesses and bootstrapping.

我个人了解我，在过去的三年里，我可能使用了三种不同的生产力系统，我喜欢在它们之间跳来跳去，但我不明白这一点，最终我在与风险投资支持的企业竞争和自力更生的过程中损失了 1000 万美元。

Andrew Wilkinson: It was all my own money, poured $10 million, lit it on fire trying to compete with Asana because I didn't understand how the business world worked really as they had raised hundreds of millions of dollars and they were run by the co-founder of Facebook and it was a little bit like, I'm Fiji and I'm deciding I'm going to invade the United States in retrospect, just completely silly.

Andrew Wilkinson：这都是我自己的钱，投入了 1000 万美元，试图与 Asana 竞争，因为我不明白商业世界是如何运作的，因为他们筹集了数亿美元，而且他们是由 Facebook 联合创始人经营的，这有点像，我是斐济，回想起来我决定入侵美国，完全愚蠢。

Now on the flip side, if I'd taken that same amount of energy and I'd instead focused on, let's see, what's a really boring one I've heard about, there was a business I saw recently.

现在，另一方面，如果我花费同样多的精力，而是专注于，让我们看看，我听说过的一个非常无聊的事情是什么，我最近看到了一项业务。

Andrew Wilkinson: They were making $30 million a year and all they did was help people fill out forms to get government assistance in certain programs.

安德鲁·威尔金森：他们每年赚 3000 万美元，他们所做的只是帮助人们填写表格以获得政府对某些项目的援助。

So it'd be like your uncle is disabled and you need to access government funding.

所以这就好像你的叔叔是残疾人，而你需要获得政府资助。

The process to do it is incredibly time-consuming and miserable and you have to fill out all these forms.

这样做的过程非常耗时且痛苦，而且你必须填写所有这些表格。

They just have software that fills out the forms for you and it says, look, you're going to get $20,000 as a grant, pay us a thousand bucks, and that is such a boring, nobody wakes up and goes, "I want to make form filling software," but I think they would if they could make 20 million a year

他们只是有一个可以帮你填写表格的软件，上面写着，看，你将获得 20,000 美元的补助金，付给我们一千美元，这太无聊了，没有人一觉醒来就会说，“我想制作表格填写软件”，但我认为如果他们每年能赚 2000 万美元，他们就会这么做。

Lenny Rachitsky: Along these lines of just bad ideas, things people shouldn't start, what are a few ideas that you think everyone thinks is going to be a great idea and then they do it and then they always fail?

Lenny Rachitsky：沿着这些坏主意，人们不应该开始的事情，有哪些你认为每个人都认为会是一个好主意，然后他们做了但总是失败的想法？

Andrew Wilkinson: Well, I think the biggest mistake, I can speak from my own experience, the biggest mistakes I've made business-wise have been going into business models where other people have repeatedly failed and thinking, I can do this better.

安德鲁·威尔金森：嗯，我认为最大的错误，我可以从我自己的经验来看，我在商业方面所犯的最大错误是进入了其他人一再失败的商业模式，并认为我可以做得更好。

So for example, me and one of my best friends about 10 years ago, we really wanted to start a bar.

举例来说，大约十年前，我和我最好的朋友之一，我们真的很想开一家酒吧。

We just thought it'd be so cool to have a bar where us and all of our friends could go, we thought it'd be great for the city.

我们只是觉得拥有一家我们和所有朋友都可以去的酒吧真是太酷了，我们认为这对这座城市来说是件好事。

We thought we can run this really high margin because we're tech guys, we know how to build systems, we're good at business, and we were utterly humbled.

我们认为我们能够获得如此高的利润，因为我们是技术人员，我们知道如何构建系统，我们擅长业务，而且我们感到非常谦卑。

We realized that we didn't know anything about business compared to someone who runs a pizzeria.

我们意识到，与经营比萨饼店的人相比，我们对商业一无所知。

If you think about it, like my example earlier of if you run a software company, what has to happen?

如果你想一想，就像我之前的例子，如果你经营一家软件公司，会发生什么？

Andrew Wilkinson: You have to hire a bunch of nerds, they need internet connections and computers and you need to pay them and you need to coordinate online and everyone can work asynchronously.

安德鲁·威尔金森：你必须雇用一群书呆子，他们需要互联网连接和计算机，你需要付钱给他们，你需要在线协调，每个人都可以异步工作。

Nothing has to go right.

没有什么事情一定是正确的。

It's not that complicated, at least at small-scale.

至少在小规模上，事情并没有那么复杂。

A pizzeria, it's like if the baker doesn't wake up at three in the morning and start prepping dough, the entire thing is effed and all along the way there's a hundred different failure points from front of house, back of house, the deliveries, arriving on time, all this logistics.

在一家比萨店，如果面包师没有在凌晨三点起床并开始准备面团，那么整个事情就会失败，并且一路上会有一百个不同的故障点，从前厅、后厅、送货、准时到达，所有这些物流。

And so I think it's been stuff like that.

所以我认为事情就是这样的。

I mean also I got into the news business, the local news business.

我的意思是我也进入了新闻行业，地方新闻行业。

I ended up buying an old paper in Vancouver and it's the exact same thing.

我最终在温哥华买了一份旧报纸，结果是一模一样的。

It's like you can't take a brilliant management team and change a bad business model.

这就像你不能通过一个优秀的管理团队来改变一个糟糕的商业模式。

Ultimately the business model wins.

最终商业模式获胜。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is really good advice.

Lenny Rachitsky：这真是个好建议。

Basically if there's a bunch of dead bodies in that space, there's probably something there that keeps killing them that you're probably not aware of until maybe somebody figures something out, right?

基本上，如果那个空间里有一堆尸体，那么那里可能有某种东西在不断地杀死他们，而你可能不会意识到，直到有人发现了什么，对吧？

Once in a while, once in a blue moon, someone's like, "Okay, here's how we do this and then it works."

偶尔，千载难逢，有人会说，“好吧，我们就是这样做的，然后它就起作用了。”

Andrew Wilkinson: Well, look at Instacart.

安德鲁·威尔金森：嗯，看看 Instacart。

When Instacart came out, everyone said, "Well, Webvan failed.

当 Instacart 推出时，每个人都说：“好吧，Webvan 失败了。

This is never going to work." And we still don't necessarily know if Instacart is a great business.

这永远不会起作用。”而且我们仍然不一定知道 Instacart 是否是一项伟大的业务。

I don't know, I haven't studied it, but I think it was like, okay, enough technology has changed that it can happen, but would it be easier to start Instacart, Amazon or Coupang or would it be easier to start an enterprise SaaS software company?

我不知道，我没有研究过，但我认为，好吧，足够的技术已经改变，它可以发生，但是创办 Instacart、亚马逊或 Coupang 会更容易，还是创办企业 SaaS 软件公司会更容易？

Definitely the enterprise SaaS software company.

绝对是企业级 SaaS 软件公司。

Lenny Rachitsky: I see.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我明白了。

So this is I guess is the advice there.

所以我想这就是那里的建议。

The thing that is easy to start is the thing you should not do because everyone's going after that.

容易开始的事情就是你不应该做的事情，因为每个人都在追求它。

Andrew Wilkinson: Well, it goes back to my gym analogy of if you're going to deadlift 300 pounds, trained for 15 years, you should have already had three startups and they should have worked and you've really built up the reps.

安德鲁·威尔金森：嗯，这可以追溯到我在健身房的比喻，如果你要硬拉 300 磅，训练 15 年，你应该已经拥有 3 家初创公司，它们应该已经发挥作用，而且你确实已经建立了次数。

And I think that if I was going to start Instacart, that's different than someone who's 20 starting it.

我认为，如果我要创办 Instacart，那与 20 岁开始创办 Instacart 的人是不同的。

Not that I would be good at it, but at least I would know what I'm getting into.

并不是说我会擅长，但至少我会知道我要做什么。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's talk about something that is this endless debate on Twitter.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们来谈谈 Twitter 上无休无止的争论。

Maybe it's a false dichotomy between lifestyle businesses, bootstrap businesses, this idea of not raising money, just making revenue, living off the revenue versus venture-backed venture scale companies feels like you're very good at the first bucket and a lot of people, this is their dream, "I'm just going to start something.

也许这是生活方式企业和引导企业之间的错误二分法，这种不筹集资金，只赚取收入，靠收入为生的想法与风险投资支持的风险规模公司相比，感觉就像你非常擅长第一桶，而很多人，这是他们的梦想，“我只是要开始做一些事情。

I'll start a lifestyle business, make a few million a year, never raise money.

我会开办一家生活方式生意，每年赚几百万，从不筹集资金。

Who needs VCs?

谁需要风险投资？

VCs suck." Advice for deciding which route to go with an idea you have.

风险投资很糟糕。”根据您的想法决定走哪条路线的建议。

Andrew Wilkinson: Well, I think it's just not true that a "lifestyle" or bootstrap business can't get huge.

安德鲁·威尔金森：嗯，我认为“生活方式”或引导业务无法发展壮大是不正确的。

I mean, we bootstrapped the entire business and now across all of our companies we do almost $300 million in revenue.

我的意思是，我们引导了整个业务，现在我们所有公司的收入接近 3 亿美元。

And the whole time I had been focusing on taking, starting small businesses, small ideas, simple ideas, often buying small companies and watching them grow really big.

一直以来，我一直专注于创办小企业、小想法、简单的想法，经常收购小公司并看着它们成长为真正的大公司。

And I think that the only difference between what we do and what a venture capitalist does is the level of tolerance of burning money on fire.

我认为我们所做的事情和风险投资家所做的事情之间的唯一区别是对烧钱的容忍程度。

And I just haven't seen that If we choose the right businesses that aren't in incredibly competitive markets or where they have some sort of moat.

我只是还没有看到，如果我们选择正确的企业，这些企业不在竞争异常激烈的市场中，也不在拥有某种护城河的地方。

So what I mean by that is a great brand or a network effect like a social network or something like that, I don't feel we're holding them back by not letting them light up a bunch of money on fire because these things naturally grow.

所以我的意思是一个伟大的品牌或像社交网络之类的网络效应，我不认为我们不让他们点燃一堆钱来阻碍他们，因为这些东西自然增长。

Andrew Wilkinson: The numbers, I mean they're like balloons, they just go as long as we don't mess them up too much.

安德鲁·威尔金森：我的意思是，这些数字就像气球，只要我们不把它们搞得太乱，它们就会消失。

So I think the decision ultimately comes down to how hairy do you want your big, hairy, audacious goal to be?

所以我认为这个决定最终取决于你希望你的宏伟、大胆、大胆的目标有多复杂？

And if your big, hairy, audacious goal is I'm going to start the next satellite business that creates some sort of crazy technological revolution.

如果你的宏伟、毛茸茸的、大胆的目标是我将开始下一个卫星业务，创造某种疯狂的技术革命。

Yes, you're going to have to raise a venture capital unless you're already a billionaire or something like that.

是的，除非你已经是亿万富翁或类似的人，否则你将不得不筹集风险投资。

But if you're wanting to just tinker and solve a problem that you think is not going to be hyper-competitive, so for example, that form-filling thing or software that just does a narrow thing that doesn't require 20, 30, 40 million to be lit on fire before it can make money, then you can have a wonderful life and build a wonderful company that can scale into the hundreds of millions of dollars if you play your cards right without ever raising money.

但如果你只是想修补并解决一个你认为竞争不会太激烈的问题，例如，填写表格的东西或软件，只做一件狭隘的事情，不需要20、30、4000万就可以赚钱，那么如果你在不筹集资金的情况下玩得好，你可以拥有美好的生活并建立一个可以扩展到数亿美元的美好公司。

Lenny Rachitsky: Per the story you shared with Flow where you're competing against a venture-funded company, if there is a venture-backed company in this space, is the advice you're not going to win competing with them most likely and try to do something else.

Lenny Rachitsky：根据您与 Flow 分享的故事，您正在与一家风险投资公司竞争，如果这个领域有一家风险投资公司，建议您最有可能在与他们的竞争中获胜，并尝试做其他事情。

Andrew Wilkinson: Well, look at Things.

安德鲁·威尔金森：嗯，看看事情。

Do you know Things?

你知道事物吗？

Andrew Wilkinson: I do too.

安德鲁·威尔金森：我也是。

It's awesome.

太棒了。

Things still exist and Things has existed for 20 years.

事物仍然存在，并且事物已经存在了 20 年。

It's run by I believe one or two or three people.

我相信它是由一两个或三个人管理的。

It's not a big team, certainly under 10 people, it was, I believe, bootstrapped and it's just consistently delivered an exceptional product and built up a loyal following.

这不是一个大团队，当然不到 10 人，但我相信，它是自力更生的，只是始终如一地提供卓越的产品并建立了忠实的追随者。

They have their 10,000 true fans who use it, and that's enough for them, but they don't do a lot.

他们有一万名真正的粉丝在使用它，这对他们来说已经足够了，但他们做的并不多。

They've been very intentional.

他们是非常有意的。

They don't do any AI stuff, they don't have an API.

他们不做任何人工智能的事情，他们没有API。

They're not on Android.

他们不在安卓系统上。

They're very focused and I think they have succeeded.

他们非常专注，我认为他们已经成功了。

But the question is, what would an MBA or a business professor say about their success?

但问题是，MBA 或商学院教授会如何评价他们的成功？

If the measure of success is did they maximize taking as much market share as possible and grow to be as big as possible, then the answer is no because Asana and other people have built multi-billion dollar companies.

如果衡量成功的标准是他们是否最大限度地占据了尽可能多的市场份额并发展得尽可能大，那么答案是否定的，因为 Asana 和其他人已经建立了价值数十亿美元的公司。

Andrew Wilkinson: If the goal is the founder has an incredible life, probably has three houses, flies all over the place, does whatever he wants, has recurring revenue and he gets to work with headphones on building beautiful piece of software that people love, then I think he's won.

安德鲁·威尔金森：如果创始人的目标是拥有令人难以置信的生活，可能拥有三栋房子，到处飞，做任何他想做的事，有经常性收入，并且他可以戴着耳机开发人们喜欢的漂亮软件，那么我认为他赢了。

I am generally much more in the camp of the Things guy has won, not Dustin Moskovitz.

一般来说，我更倾向于那些赢得胜利的人，而不是达斯汀·莫斯科维茨。

Dustin Moskovitz is just playing a different game than the Things guy.

达斯汀·莫斯科维茨只是在玩与“事物”不同的游戏。

And if Dustin Moskovitz was running Things, he'd be miserable and if the Things guy was running Asana, he would probably kill himself because he wants to put his headphones on and build.

如果达斯汀·莫斯科维茨 (Dustin Moskovitz) 负责管理 Things，他会很痛苦，而如果由 Things 负责管理 Asana，他可能会自杀，因为他想戴上耳机开始创作。

Lenny Rachitsky: I wonder why nobody has come.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想知道为什么没有人来。

It feels like just with lifestyle businesses, if it's working and you would think somebody would come in with more money and more funding and just eat their lunch, is the key that the market is too small for a VC to ever be excited and so that's why no one's coming for them?

感觉就像生活方式企业，如果它有效，你会认为有人会带着更多的钱和更多的资金进来，然后吃他们的午餐，关键是市场太小，风险投资人不会感到兴奋，所以这就是为什么没有人来找他们？

Andrew Wilkinson: I think so.

安德鲁·威尔金森：我想是的。

I mean, I think Things probably, I'm just guessing, I don't know any of the numbers or whatever, but I would assume it makes between five and $25 million of revenue, which to a VC is not even worth considering a VC.

我的意思是，我认为事情可能，我只是猜测，我不知道任何数字或其他什么，但我认为它会带来 5 到 2500 万美元的收入，这对于 VC 来说甚至不值得考虑。

For a VC to invest in your business, you need to have a story where it's worth 300 million to a billion dollars or more.

为了让风险投资家投资您的企业，您需要有一个价值 3 亿至 10 亿美元或更多的故事。

So it's just not that exciting to them, which again, going back to fish where the fish are, you don't want to be fighting against the commercial fishermen.

所以这对他们来说并不是那么令人兴奋，再次回到有鱼的地方捕鱼，你不想与商业渔民作斗争。

If you just want to have a little business where you get enough fish to feed your family and your village or whatever, find the other fishing hole.

如果您只想做点小生意，获得足够的鱼来养活您的家人和村庄或其他什么，请找到另一个钓鱼洞。

Don't go where the trawlers are.

不要去拖网渔船所在的地方。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is great advice if you're trying to start a non venture backed company is find.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果您想创办一家非风险投资支持的公司，这是一个很好的建议。

This metaphor just keeps working for us, which is fish where the fish are, but not where the professional fishermen are.

这个比喻对我们来说一直有效，即有鱼的地方就有鱼，但专业渔民所在的地方却没有鱼。

Also, ideally not where there's just a ton of, I don't know, fishermen from all over the place.

另外，最好不要在有大量我不知道来自各地的渔民的地方。

I don't know, solopreneur fishermen.

我不知道，个体渔民。

Okay.

好的。

Coming back to just starting a successful company, what would you say are the keys to an amazing business model, an amazing business broadly, what should you be thinking about and looking into?

回到刚刚创办一家成功的公司，您认为建立一个令人惊叹的商业模式、一个令人惊叹的业务的关键是什么，您应该考虑和研究什么？

I know you spent a lot of time thinking about this.

我知道你花了很多时间思考这个问题。

When you're buying companies, what are a few bullet points that you want to focus on?

当您购买公司时，您想要关注的几个要点是什么？

Andrew Wilkinson: What I do for a living is basically buy businesses.

安德鲁·威尔金森：我主要靠收购企业为生。

So in my early career I started one business, then I started about 10 more, and then I realized starting businesses was extremely hard and I was doing pretty well.

因此，在我职业生涯的早期，我创办了一家企业，然后又创办了大约 10 家企业，然后我意识到创业非常困难，但我做得还不错。

I was making quite a bit of money and I'd sold one of my businesses and I was looking out at the next 10 years and really asking myself what do I want my career to be and am I happy doing what I'm doing?

我赚了很多钱，卖掉了自己的一家企业，展望未来 10 年，并真正问自己，我希望自己的职业生涯是什么，我是否快乐地做我正在做的事情？

And the answer was no. I did not starting businesses and experiencing that failure rate, it was incredibly stressful.

答案是否定的。我没有创业并经历过失败率，这是令人难以置信的压力。

And so I picked up a book about investing and I got lucky.

所以我拿起一本关于投资的书，我很幸运。

The first one I bought was about Warren Buffett, and for those that don't know, Warren Buffett is he's counter to every VC kind of hustle culture thing you might hear because he basically just sits quietly in a room and reads all day, despite owning 260 different businesses and being one of the 10 wealthiest people in the world, his life is incredibly calm.

我买的第一个是关于沃伦·巴菲特的，对于那些不知道的人来说，沃伦·巴菲特与你可能听到的所有风险投资类型的喧嚣文化相反，因为他基本上只是安静地坐在房间里整天读书，尽管拥有 260 家不同的企业，并且是世界上最富有的 10 个人之一，但他的生活却异常平静。

Andrew Wilkinson: He only does what he wants and he spends most of his time quietly reading and once or twice a year, he makes a big decision to buy a business.

安德鲁·威尔金森：他只做他想做的事，大部分时间都在安静地读书，每年有一两次，他会做出收购一家企业的重大决定。

And so when I read about Warren Buffett, I just thought, wow, I'm a sucker.

所以当我读到沃伦·巴菲特的故事时，我只是想，哇，我真是个傻瓜。

I'm running around like a crazy person trying to run all these businesses.

我像个疯子一样四处奔波，试图经营所有这些业务。

Why am I not just buying businesses and letting them run?

为什么我不直接收购企业并让它们运营？

And so when I'm buying a business, what I'm really looking for is something that I can't mess up.

因此，当我购买一家企业时，我真正寻找的是我不会搞砸的东西。

Right now, obviously we buy a business, we try not to mess it up, and we're very intentional, actually very odd in that when Tiny buys a company, we generally just leave them alone.

现在，显然我们买了一家企业，我们尽量不把事情搞砸，我们是非常有意的，实际上很奇怪，当 Tiny 买一家公司时，我们通常不会打扰他们。

If they already have management in place, we say nothing changes, no one should know that we've even bought them.

如果他们已经有了适当的管理，我们就不会说任何改变，没有人应该知道我们甚至已经购买了他们。

Obviously people know that, but really there should be no change whatsoever.

显然人们都知道这一点，但实际上不应该有任何改变。

Andrew Wilkinson: The only change that we generally make is if the founder wants to leave the business, then we'll bring in a CEO to run the company, and that's probably the most important decision that we make.

安德鲁·威尔金森：我们通常所做的唯一改变是，如果创始人想离开公司，那么我们将聘请首席执行官来管理公司，这可能是我们做出的最重要的决定。

So I'm looking for a business though where it is so good that it's hard to mess up, and most businesses are very easy to mess up.

所以我正在寻找一家生意好到很难搞砸的地方，而大多数生意都很容易搞砸。

One person leaves and the whole business falls apart because it's held together with dental floss and duct tape.

一个人离开，整个企业就会分崩离析，因为它是用牙线和胶带粘在一起的。

And so I'm really looking for what Warren Buffett would call a moat.

所以我真的在寻找沃伦·巴菲特所说的护城河。

So a moat is basically a brand, so that could be a brand like Coca-Cola, Tylenol, Advil, something like that.

所以护城河基本上就是一个品牌，所以可以是可口可乐、泰诺、Advil 之类的品牌。

So something that gives you pricing power where you can consistently charge and you have loyal customers or where we usually find a lot of opportunity is in network effects.

因此，网络效应可以为你提供定价权，让你可以持续收费，并且拥有忠实的客户，或者我们通常会发现很多机会。

Andrew Wilkinson: So typically we're looking for a community that's gotten so big where people don't want to go elsewhere.

安德鲁·威尔金森（Andrew Wilkinson）：通常我们会寻找一个规模足够大、人们不想去其他地方的社区。

So for example, we own Letterboxd, which is the largest social network for film lovers.

例如，我们拥有 Letterboxd，它是最大的电影爱好者社交网络。

And the question is, if someone else wants to compete with us, why would someone go to their social network that has a small number of users when all their friends are already on Letterboxd?

问题是，如果其他人想与我们竞争，当他们所有的朋友都已经在 Letterboxd 上时，为什么有人会去他们拥有少量用户的社交网络呢？

And so you see that same kind of thing with Instagram or Facebook or similar.

所以你会在 Instagram 或 Facebook 或类似的网站上看到同样的事情。

And so we're looking for businesses like that, something that has staying power that is hard to compete with and that we can hold over the very long term.

因此，我们正在寻找这样的企业，它们具有难以竞争的持久力，并且我们可以长期持有。

Lenny Rachitsky: It was interesting when Elon bought X, how that was such a test of the power of network effects.

Lenny Rachitsky：当 Elon 收购 X 时，很有趣，这是对网络效应力量的一次考验。

If you think about it, back then he changed the name.

你仔细想想，那时候他改了名字。

So the brand completely changed the team.

所以品牌彻底改变了团队。

80% of the people left.

80%的人离开了。

What was left, it was the network and the network effect and the simplest way.

剩下的就是网络、网络效应和最简单的方式。

Just for folks that aren't super familiar with network effects, the way I think about it is just network effect is where every additional user that joins the network becomes more useful for everybody.

对于那些不太熟悉网络效应的人来说，我认为网络效应就是加入网络的每个额外用户对每个人都变得更有用。

Andrew Wilkinson: There's another moat, which is high switching costs, which I don't really like because it's not really very consumer friendly, but an example might be Salesforce where no one wants to, they've spent years and they've done all the implementation and trained everyone on it, and it's kind of the standard, everybody hates it, but ripping it out and switching is such a pain in the that they just won't bother.

Andrew Wilkinson：还有另一条护城河，那就是高昂的转换成本，我不太喜欢它，因为它对消费者不太友好，但一个例子可能是 Salesforce，没有人愿意这样做，他们花了数年时间完成了所有的实施，并对每个人进行了培训，这是一种标准，每个人都讨厌它，但撕掉它并进行转换是如此痛苦，他们只是不会打扰。

That's another form of sometimes a great business, but again, that's more depressing.

这是有时伟大企业的另一种形式，但同样，这更令人沮丧。

I don't love that one.

我不喜欢那个人。

Lenny Rachitsky: What's the last company you guys bought?

Lenny Rachitsky：你们最近收购的公司是哪家？

Andrew Wilkinson: We bought Serato.

安德鲁·威尔金森：我们买了 Serato。

Serato is the largest DJ software company in the world.

Serato 是世界上最大的 DJ 软件公司。

So if you ever see a DJ playing and they've got a laptop in front of them, probably using Serato to DJ.

因此，如果您看到 DJ 正在演奏，并且他们面前有一台笔记本电脑，那么他们可能正在使用 Serato 进行 DJ。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, that is super cool.

Lenny Rachitsky：哇，那太酷了。

What I'd like a funding to be walking into.

我想要一笔资金进入什么领域。

Andrew Wilkinson: I used to DJ so I was aware of them and it was one of those moments we talked about earlier where I understood the business.

Andrew Wilkinson：我曾经做过 DJ，所以我了解他们，这是我们之前讨论过的那些时刻之一，我了解了这一行业。

They had a really interesting mode of this huge passionate user base and deep hardware integration.

他们拥有一个非常有趣的模式，即庞大的热情用户群和深度的硬件集成。

And I also love DJing and I was able to analyze the business and luck comes to the prepared mind and it worked out.

我也喜欢打碟，我能够分析业务，运气会降临到有准备的人身上，结果就成功了。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is another great callback to your excellent piece of advice of just ideally what you're working on, whether you're starting the company or buying the company, is you have a unique unfair advantage or some kind of unique background that connects to that idea.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是对您提出的一个很好的建议的另一个很好的回想，无论您是创办公司还是购买公司，理想情况下您正在从事的工作是否具有独特的不公平优势或某种与该想法相关的独特背景。

Let me ask you one more question before we shift a whole different topic, hint, hint, AI.

在我们转移一个完全不同的话题之前，让我再问你一个问题，提示，提示，人工智能。

Something that I know you talk a lot about, something you believe strongly and something you deal with a lot is when you buy companies is just as people and the challenges of management and hiring and people.

我知道您经常谈论的事情、您坚信的事情以及您经常处理的事情是，当您购买公司时，就像人以及管理、招聘和人员方面的挑战一样。

So what have you learned about just how to successfully, I don't know, find amazing people, keep amazing people, help people be more successful within the companies that you operate?

那么，我不知道如何成功地找到优秀的人才，留住优秀的人才，帮助人们在你经营的公司内取得更大的成功，你学到了什么？

Andrew Wilkinson: My business partner, Chris, has a really great quote.

安德鲁·威尔金森：我的商业伙伴克里斯有一句话非常好。

He says, "There are no problems.

他说：“没有问题。

There is only people problems." And so we've found that you could tell us that there's a disaster that one of our business units is about to fail or something like that.

只是人的问题。”因此，我们发现您可以告诉我们，我们的一个业务部门即将发生一场灾难，或者类似的事情。

As long as I'm surrounded by really great smart people, I feel fine.

只要我周围都是非常聪明的人，我就感觉很好。

But when we have a bad actor, we have a psycho or a narcissist or a really horrible, difficult person we're dealing with, all bets are off and life becomes incredibly stressful.

但是，当我们遇到一个糟糕的演员、一个精神病患者、一个自恋者或者一个非常可怕、难以相处的人时，所有的赌注都会落空，生活就会变得异常紧张。

So I'd say I spend probably 20% of my time just trying to make sure we're filtering people very carefully and ensuring we're working with people that we enjoy.

所以我想说，我大概花了 20% 的时间来确保我们非常仔细地筛选人员，并确保我们与我们喜欢的人一起工作。

And I could talk about it in the AI, I've done some really interesting stuff to help me screen and identify difficult people, but I've just found that the biggest mistake I made in my early career was I would hire people because I liked them on gut and I would think that I could change them.

我可以在人工智能中谈论它，我做了一些非常有趣的事情来帮助我筛选和识别难相处的人，但我刚刚发现我在早期职业生涯中犯的最大错误是我会雇佣一些人，因为我本能地喜欢他们，并且我认为我可以改变他们。

Andrew Wilkinson: So it's kind of like in romantic relationships, it never works out well.

安德鲁·威尔金森：这有点像恋爱关系，永远不会有好的结果。

If you get married to someone and you go, "Okay, well this is going to be a great relationship as long as I can convert them to Christianity or I can change their parents or their personality," or whatever it is.

如果你和某人结婚了，你会说，“好吧，只要我能让他们皈依基督教，或者我能改变他们的父母或他们的性格，这将是一段很好的关系”，或者无论是什么。

And so I've just found that I've never been able to change someone.

所以我才发现我永远无法改变某人。

You can never mentor someone out into being a good employee.

你永远无法指导某人成为一名好员工。

And the kind of heuristic I have is if I ever think, should I fire this person even once, I should fire them immediately.

我的启发是，如果我曾经想过，即使我解雇这个人一次，我也应该立即解雇他们。

It has always been a signal, at least for me, that when someone's a superstar, I can't imagine firing them.

这一直是一个信号，至少对我来说，当某人是超级巨星时，我无法想象解雇他们。

I think it's impossible, I'd be lost without them.

我想这是不可能的，没有他们我就会迷失方向。

Andrew Wilkinson: But when I repeatedly start going, "Man, is this person going to work out?" Almost always within six to 12 months, it doesn't work out.

安德鲁·威尔金森：但是当我反复开始问“伙计，这个人能锻炼身体吗？”几乎总是在六到十二个月内，它就不会成功。

And so I really try and be really direct about stuff like that and just cut when it's not working.

所以我真的尝试对这样的事情采取非常直接的态度，当它不起作用时就直接剪掉。

So I'd say the lesson really is hire for what you need.

所以我想说，这个教训确实是根据你的需要来雇用。

Don't hire just for potential, which is counter to what a lot of people say.

不要仅仅因为潜力而招聘，这与很多人所说的相反。

A lot of people say hire for potential and coach them into being whatever you need.

很多人说，雇佣有潜力的人，并指导他们成为你所需要的人。

I just haven't found that.

我只是还没有发现。

I think you need to hire someone who already is fully formed and can do what you need.

我认为你需要聘请一个已经完全成熟并且可以做你需要的事情的人。

But again, everyone does it differently.

但同样，每个人的做法都不同。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is big advice.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的建议。

Powerful advice.

强有力的建议。

Is this true not just for the CEOs of the companies you run?

这不仅适用于您经营的公司的首席执行官吗？

As for folks under lower down the ladder too?

至于处于下层的人们呢？

Andrew Wilkinson: Well, for CEOs, one of the most interesting things we've observed is, so I'll give you an example.

安德鲁·威尔金森：对于首席执行官来说，我们观察到的最有趣的事情之一是，所以我给你们举一个例子。

We had a CEO come in and we were interviewing them and in my opinion, the business needed to grow via organic marketing.

我们有一位首席执行官进来，我们正在采访他们，在我看来，业务需要通过有机营销来增长。

In his opinion, it was enterprise sales.

在他看来，就是企业销售。

And so when we're interviewing him, he keeps going back to his experience building with enterprise sales.

因此，当我们采访他时，他不断回顾自己在企业销售方面的经验。

And there's this great saying, "To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail." And so for him, he's looking at this business and going enterprise sales, that's the way to grow.

有句话说得好：“对于一个拿着锤子的人来说，一切看起来都像钉子。”所以对他来说，他正在关注这个业务并进行企业销售，这就是增长的方式。

I hire him, but I say, "Look, if we're going to hire you, we need you to do the organic marketing." Lo and behold, of course, he goes off and he does the enterprise sales thing.

我聘用了他，但我说：“听着，如果我们要聘用你，我们需要你来进行有机营销。”你瞧，当然，他就去做企业销售的事情了。

And I've just found that hiring CEOs is like they're an elephant and you're the rider.

我刚刚发现招聘首席执行官就像他们是一头大象，而你是骑象人。

Andrew Wilkinson: They're going to go wherever it is that they want to go.

安德鲁·威尔金森：他们会去任何他们想去的地方。

And so listening incredibly carefully to people's words and their experiences, because generally people will do the thing they tell you.

因此，要非常仔细地倾听人们的言论和经历，因为通常人们会按照他们告诉你的去做。

So what I look for when I interview a CEO now, I want to be nodding along.

所以，当我现在采访一位首席执行官时，我希望他能点头同意。

I want to go, that's exactly what I would do or that's way smarter than my idea.

我想去，这正是我会做的，或者说这比我的想法聪明得多。

And then I just leave them alone because I've found that anytime I try and pull them in a certain direction or coach them or whatever, it just doesn't work.

然后我就不管他们了，因为我发现每当我试图将他们拉向某个方向或指导他们或其他什么时，它就是行不通。

And again, this could be my problem.

再说一次，这可能是我的问题。

I might be the world's worst coach and mentor, but for me, that's been what's true.

我可能是世界上最糟糕的教练和导师，但对我来说，这就是事实。

Lenny Rachitsky: I imagine there's also an element of they won't love the job if they want to be doing say enterprise sales, and then they're creating viral TikTok videos all day and tweeting.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想还有一个因素是，如果他们想做企业销售，然后他们整天都在制作病毒式的 TikTok 视频并发推文，他们就不会喜欢这份工作。

They're like, "What the hell?"

他们就像，“到底是什么？”

Andrew Wilkinson: Well, I've also found people will shoot themselves in the foot.

安德鲁·威尔金森：嗯，我还发现人们会搬起石头砸自己的脚。

If I tell them an idea in a board meeting and I say, "I really need you to try this," it never works because usually they sandbag it, right?

如果我在董事会会议上告诉他们一个想法，然后我说，“我真的需要你尝试一下”，那么它永远不会起作用，因为通常他们会用沙袋把它包起来，对吗？

They don't really put their heart into it or they're just placating me and they don't want it to work.

他们并没有真正全心投入，或者他们只是安抚我，他们不希望它发挥作用。

They want their idea to work.

他们希望自己的想法能够实现。

And so I've learned not to do that.

所以我学会了不要这样做。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Miro.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Miro 为您带来。

Every day new headlines are scaring us about all the ways that AI is coming for our jobs, creating a lot of anxiety and fear.

每天都有新的头条新闻让我们害怕人工智能会以各种方式取代我们的工作，造成很多焦虑和恐惧。

But a recent survey for Miro tells a different story.

但最近对米罗的一项调查却讲述了一个不同的故事。

76% of people believe that AI can benefit their role, but over 50% of people struggle to know when to use it.

76% 的人相信人工智能可以让他们的角色受益，但超过 50% 的人很难知道何时使用它。

Enter Miro's innovation Workspace, an intelligent platform that brings people and AI together in a shared space to get great work done.

进入 Miro 的创新工作区，这是一个智能平台，它将人和人工智能聚集在一个共享空间中，以完成出色的工作。

Miro has been empowering teams to transform bold ideas into the next big thing for over a decade.

十多年来，Miro 一直致力于帮助团队将大胆的想法转化为下一件大事。

Today, they're at the forefront of bringing products to market even faster by unleashing the combined power of AI and human potential.

如今，他们处于领先地位，通过释放人工智能和人类潜力的综合力量，更快地将产品推向市场。

Teams can work with Miro AI to turn unstructured data like sticky notes or screenshots into usable diagrams, product briefs, data tables, and prototypes in minutes.

团队可以与 Miro AI 合作，在几分钟内将便签或屏幕截图等非结构化数据转换为可用的图表、产品简介、数据表和原型。

Lenny Rachitsky: You don't have to be an AI master or to toggle yet another tool.

Lenny Rachitsky：您不必成为人工智能大师或切换另一种工具。

The work you're already doing in Miro's canvas is the prompt.

您已经在 Miro 的画布中所做的工作就是提示。

Help your teams get great work done with Miro.

使用 Miro 帮助您的团队出色地完成工作。

Check it out at Miro.com to find out how.

请访问 Miro.com 了解具体操作方法。

That's M-I-R-O.com.

那是 M-I-R-O.com。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's talk about AI.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们来谈谈人工智能。

It's so funny to watch you on Twitter.

在推特上看到你真是太有趣了。

Clearly you've become AI obsessed, AIphile.

显然，你已经对人工智能着迷了，AIphile。

I don't know what the term is, and I love that you're not just the kind of person that just talks about it and tweets pontifications, you're clearly using it in every facet of your job and looking for more ways to use AI.

我不知道这个词是什么，但我喜欢你不只是那种只是谈论它并在推特上发表武断的人，你显然在工作的各个方面都使用它，并寻找更多使用人工智能的方法。

So I have a lot of questions here because I think this is where more and more founders are going to be where you are today.

所以我在这里有很多问题，因为我认为这就是越来越多的创始人将成为今天的情况的地方。

First of all, just what's in your AI stack these days?

首先，现在您的 AI 堆栈中有哪些内容？

What are the tools you find yourself coming back to most or finding most useful?

您发现自己最常使用或认为最有用的工具是什么？

Andrew Wilkinson: So the primary tool I use is a tool called Lindy, Lindy.ai.

Andrew Wilkinson：所以我使用的主要工具是一个名为 Lindy 的工具，Lindy.ai。

And what it basically lets you do is build workflows and agents.

它基本上让您做的是构建工作流程和代理。

So it's very simple.

所以这很简单。

You might say, "When I get an email in the Gmail API, I want to add an AI agent that reads the email and labels it based on that." Or you can build a crazy Rube Goldberg machine that sends different emails all sorts of different places.

您可能会说，“当我在 Gmail API 中收到电子邮件时，我想添加一个 AI 代理来读取电子邮件并据此对其进行标记。”或者你可以建造一个疯狂的 Rube Goldberg 机器，向不同的地方发送不同的电子邮件。

So for example, when I get an email and it's related to my kid's school, one of the big problems I have is that my kid's school sends so many emails, the field trip is on Thursday and you need to bring the following things.

举个例子，当我收到一封与我孩子的学校有关的电子邮件时，我遇到的一个大问题是我孩子的学校发送了很多电子邮件，而实地考察是在星期四，你需要携带以下物品。

And meanwhile, there's parent teacher interviews and all these things get added to my calendar.

与此同时，还有家长老师的访谈，所有这些事情都被添加到我的日历中。

The AI agent automatically takes that, puts it onto my calendar, makes sure there's notes for all the things I need to prepare and stuff.

人工智能代理会自动获取这些信息，将其放入我的日历中，确保有我需要准备的所有事情的注释。

So I have just basically tried to take every single thing a human could do in my inbox and automate it with Lindy.

因此，我基本上尝试将人类在收件箱中可以做的每一件事都通过 Lindy 实现自动化。

Lenny Rachitsky: And you're sitting there in Lindy doing this yourself or do you have people that you've trained to help build these sorts of things for you?

Lenny Rachitsky：你坐在林迪那里自己做这件事，或者你有受过培训的人来帮助你建造这些东西吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

How many agents, if that's the term you want to use, do you have running for you roughly?

如果您想用这个词的话，您大约有多少名特工为您竞选？

Andrew Wilkinson: Oh man, I think I probably have not a crazy amount within...

安德鲁·威尔金森：天哪，我想我可能没有太多的钱......

Let's see.

让我们看看。

Well, each workflow probably has four or five agents.

嗯，每个工作流程可能有四到五个代理。

So for example, my inbox has four or five agents, and then I have a whole bunch of other, I've got a calendar agent, I've got a meeting agent, I've got an email agent, I've got a scheduler, I've got a CRM, and basically they're all different workflows.

例如，我的收件箱有四五个代理，然后还有一大堆其他代理，我有一个日历代理，我有一个会议代理，我有一个电子邮件代理，我有一个调度程序，我有一个 CRM，基本上它们都是不同的工作流程。

So the whole bunch of agents within.

所以里面有一大群特工。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, and you're not an investor in Lindy, right?

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，你不是 Lindy 的投资者，对吧？

You're just a fan, super user.

你只是一个粉丝，超级用户。

Lenny Rachitsky: Fun fact.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：有趣的事实。

I actually am.

我确实是。

So this is great.

所以这很棒。

Lenny Rachitsky: Tiny angel investor.

Lenny Rachitsky：小型天使投资人。

So just want to put that out there, which I love that this came up organically.

所以只是想把它放在那里，我喜欢它有机地出现。

What are a couple other really interesting use cases, workflows you've built that people might be inspired by it?

您构建的其他哪些真正有趣的用例和工作流程可能会激发人们的灵感？

Andrew Wilkinson: Let me go through the email one a little more.

安德鲁·威尔金森：让我再看一下这封电子邮件。

So basically emails come in and the first agent says, does Andrew even need to see this?

所以基本上电子邮件进来后，第一个代理会说，安德鲁是否需要看到这个？

Let's say you're in a thread and you've already chimed in and everyone's just saying, cool, that works.

假设你在一个线程中，并且你已经插话了，每个人都在说，酷，这有效。

I don't need to see that.

我不需要看到那个。

So just archives that never.

所以只是存档，从来没有。

So that immediately reduces my email by about 20%.

这样一来，我的电子邮件数量立即减少了约 20%。

Then it decides is this something that is time sensitive?

然后它决定这是否是时间敏感的事情？

Is this something that needs to be dealt with in the next 24 hours?

这是24小时内需要处理的事情吗？

And if so, it labels it in a special 24-hour label.

如果是这样，它会在特殊的 24 小时标签中标记它。

So when I go in my email, one of the biggest stresses I find is I go, "Shit, there's 200 emails in here, and if I don't go through all of them, I don't know if there's an emergency burning somewhere." So now I do.

因此，当我查看电子邮件时，我发现的最大压力之一是我说：“糟糕，这里有 200 封电子邮件，如果我不查看所有电子邮件，我不知道某个地方是否发生紧急情况。”所以现在我做到了。

Then it takes any email or every single email and it decides, is this a simple decision?

然后它会根据任何电子邮件或每封电子邮件做出决定，这是一个简单的决定吗？

Andrew Wilkinson: So for example, let's say you email me and you say, "Hey, do you want to get lunch?" So it emails me privately and it says, "Hey, Lenny wants to get lunch.

安德鲁·威尔金森：举个例子，假设你给我发电子邮件说：“嘿，你想吃午饭吗？”所以它私下给我发了一封电子邮件，上面写着：“嘿，莱尼想要吃午饭。

Do you want to say yes?

你想说“是”吗？

Do you want to say yes, but in a few months?

你想说“是”，但几个月后？

Do you want to say no?

你想说不吗？

How do you want to say no?" And it gives me multiple choice.

你想怎么拒绝？”它给了我多种选择。

I just can say four, number four, and then it'll email you as me and it'll write out a nice thoughtful email or whatever.

我只能说四，第四，然后它会以我的身份向您发送电子邮件，并且会写出一封经过深思熟虑的电子邮件或其他内容。

So stuff like that is so freaking cool and helpful.

像这样的东西非常酷而且很有帮助。

And I'd say that it's replaced stuff that my full-time, I used to have a full-time assistant just working on email that's all completely automated and there's all sorts of other cool stuff I'm doing there.

我想说的是，它取代了我的全职工作，我曾经有一个全职助理负责处理完全自动化的电子邮件，而且我正在那里做各种其他很酷的事情。

Other agents, I'm working on one right now to manage my calendar, which is really complex.

其他代理，我现在正在开发一个来管理我的日历，这确实很复杂。

I do a lot of scheduling and a lot of rules.

我做了很多安排和很多规则。

I have another really simple one.

我还有另一个非常简单的。

It adds emojis to every single calendar event.

它将表情符号添加到每个日历事件中。

So when I look at my calendar, I've got beautiful little emojis for every single calendar event.

因此，当我查看日历时，每个日历事件都会有漂亮的小表情符号。

Very silly.

非常愚蠢。

Lenny Rachitsky: What are the emojis?

Lenny Rachitsky：表情符号是什么？

Do they represent something?

它们代表什么吗？

Andrew Wilkinson: Yeah, so if I write weightlifting, it'll just do a guy weightlifting or whatever.

安德鲁·威尔金森：是的，所以如果我写举重，它只会写一个人举重或其他什么。

I've got one that, this one's cool.

我有一个，这个很酷。

Basically what it does, every time I email someone, it looks them up online, it figures out what city they live in.

基本上它的作用是，每次我给某人发电子邮件时，它都会在网上查找他们，找出他们住在哪个城市。

It checks my CRM and air table.

它会检查我的 CRM 和航空表。

It says, "Okay, I don't know where do you live."

它说：“好吧，我不知道你住在哪里。”

Andrew Wilkinson: Okay.

安德鲁·威尔金森：好的。

So it'd say, "Okay, you email Lenny, he lives in Marin." It puts in the database you live in Marin.

所以它会说，“好吧，你给莱尼发电子邮件，他住在马林。”它将放入您居住在马林的数据库中。

And then next time I travel to the Bay Area, the agent will see two weeks before and it'll say, "I saw you're going to San Francisco.

然后下次我去湾区旅行时，代理人会在两周前看到，它会说：“我看到你要去旧金山。

Here's all the people in San Francisco you should try and have coffee with." Right?

这里是所有旧金山你应该尝试和他们一起喝咖啡的人。”正确的？

So just all these things that-

所以所有这些事情——

Andrew Wilkinson: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

安德鲁·威尔金森：是的，是的，完全正确。

All these things that I've dreamed of having my assistant do that my assistant could just never consistently do because she gets distracted, we're doing an event, there's something going on.

所有这些我梦想让我的助理做的事情我的助理永远无法始终如一地做，因为她会分心，我们正在做一个活动，有事情发生。

It's like having the world's most reliable employee who costs $200 a month and works 24/7.

这就像拥有世界上最可靠的员工，每月花费 200 美元，24/7 工作。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, I want to follow that thread, but first of all, what other tools do you have?

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，我想遵循这个思路，但首先，你还有什么其他工具？

Lindy's one, what else do you find really useful?

Lindy 就是其中之一，您认为还有什么真正有用的吗？

Andrew Wilkinson: So the other one is Replit.

安德鲁·威尔金森：另一个是 Replit。

So Replit is basically a vibe coding platform.

所以 Replit 基本上是一个氛围编码平台。

You can literally go into it and say, "I want to make a website for my sound software business.

您可以直接进入并说：“我想为我的声音软件业务制作一个网站。

Here's a big document with a bunch of details," and it'll go and design a pretty impressive website.

这是一个包含大量细节的大文档”，它将设计一个非常令人印象深刻的网站。

But then you can also build web apps now.

但您现在也可以构建网络应用程序。

So you can literally be like, "Yeah, build a Python web app that does XYZ," and the design is getting so good because it uses Claude 4.

所以你实际上可以说，“是的，构建一个执行 XYZ 功能的 Python Web 应用程序”，并且设计变得如此出色，因为它使用了 Claude 4。

You can start saying, "Do it in the style of Stripe.

你可以开始说：“按照 Stripe 的风格来做。

Think this through, rewrite all the copy and the tone of David Ogilvy or Malcolm Gladwell," or whoever you like, and it does a really incredible job.

想清楚这一点，重写所有的文案和大卫·奥格威或马尔科姆·格拉德威尔的语气，”或者任何你喜欢的人，它的工作确实令人难以置信。

So what I'm finding is that things that previously would've frustrated me because I would've had to rely on a team of five, I can just do entirely on my own when it comes to web projects and stuff like that.

所以我发现，以前会让我感到沮丧的事情，因为我必须依赖一个五人团队，当涉及到网络项目和类似的事情时，我可以完全自己做。

So I'm having a blast with that.

所以我对此很感兴趣。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：那很酷。

So your team Replit versus Lovable, Bolt, v0, is that roughly right?

那么你的团队 Replit 与 Lovable、Bolt、v0 的比赛，大致是这样吗？

Andrew Wilkinson: I mean, they're all great.

安德鲁·威尔金森：我的意思是，他们都很棒。

I, just am the most familiar with Replit, and it seems like it has the most functionality.

我呢，只是对Replit最熟悉，而且看起来功能最多。

It has a lot of beef to it, whereas Lovable and Bolt seem a little more basic.

它有很多缺点，而 Lovable 和 Bolt 似乎更基本一些。

You might have to deal with deployment and stuff in a fiddlier way with them.

您可能需要以更复杂的方式处理部署和其他事情。

Andrew Wilkinson: Another one I love, so Limitless.

安德鲁·威尔金森：我喜欢的另一首，无限。

I don't know if you've seen this.

我不知道你是否见过这个。

Andrew Wilkinson: It's really cool.

安德鲁·威尔金森：这真的很酷。

So clips to your shirt.

所以夹在你的衬衫上。

I actually just put it on my pocket so no one actually notices that I've got it on usually, and I just have it on all day.

事实上，我只是把它放在口袋里，所以没有人真正注意到我通常戴着它，而且我一整天都戴着它。

And what it does is it just records everything I do.

它的作用就是记录我所做的一切。

And then I can say, the other day I had a coffee with someone and I'm the kind of person where I go a mile a minute and I say, "Oh, I'll send you that and I'll do this," or whatever.

然后我可以说，有一天我和某人喝了一杯咖啡，我是那种一分钟走一英里的人，我说，“哦，我会把那个发给你，我会做这个，”或者其他什么。

And so at the end of the day, I can just say, "Hey, what did I promise to people today?" Or even better, everyone loves this use case, I have a fight with my girlfriend.

所以在一天结束时，我可以说，“嘿，我今天向人们承诺了什么？”或者更好的是，每个人都喜欢这个用例，我和女朋友吵架了。

And she says, "You didn't say that." And I'm able to say, "Well, actually you did." And you can query it as an LLM.

她说：“你没有这么说。”我可以说：“好吧，实际上你做到了。”你可以以LLM的身份查询它。

Andrew Wilkinson: So you can say you're a couples counselor.

安德鲁·威尔金森：所以你可以说你是一名夫妻顾问。

Look at this fight.

看看这场战斗。

What did each person need?

每个人需要什么？

How did it start?

是怎么开始的？

What are the key lines?

关键线路是什么？

Where did it change?

哪里变了？

How could you do this better?

你怎样才能做得更好？

And so honestly, from a relationship standpoint is probably where it's been the most useful.

老实说，从关系的角度来看，它可能是最有用的。

What's cool too is that has an API.

还有一个很酷的地方是它有一个 API。

And so eventually, I haven't gotten there yet, but eventually you'll be able to just have it record your entire day and then automatically go into your Todoist or whatever it is, and add to-do's or send emails or whatever you need it to do.

所以最终，我还没有到达那里，但最终你将能够让它记录你的一整天，然后自动进入你的Todoist或其他任何东西，并添加待办事项或发送电子邮件或任何你需要它做的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, this is so fun.

Lenny Rachitsky：哇，这太有趣了。

Or just per your point with the relationship, ask it, "What could I have done better today?

或者根据你对这段关系的看法，问它：“今天我可以做得更好吗？

Where did the day go downhill?"

哪天的日子过得不好呢？”

Andrew Wilkinson: Yeah, I saw a guy on Twitter.

安德鲁·威尔金森：是的，我在 Twitter 上看到一个人。

He said, "Every day I ask it, 'How could I have been a better dad?'" And it'll be like, "Oh, your daughter tried to get your attention about this.

他说，“我每天都会问，‘我怎样才能成为一个更好的爸爸？’”它会说，“哦，你女儿试图引起你对这件事的注意。

You should have paid attention," or whatever.

你应该注意一下，”或者其他什么。

Lenny Rachitsky: And that was with the Limitless data.

Lenny Rachitsky：那是无限数据。

Oh, man, I love that.

哦，伙计，我喜欢那个。

With the relationship, you didn't go where I thought you were going to go, where it's like, "Oh, but who actually said it?

有了这段关系，你没有去我以为你要去的地方，就像是，“哦，但实际上是谁说的？

What did you actually say?" I love that It became much more wholesome of just like how could we have communicated better holistically?

你到底说了什么？”我喜欢它变得更加健康，就像我们如何才能更好地进行整体沟通？

Okay.

好的。

My wife actually is like, "Don't wear this around."

我妻子实际上是这样说的：“别戴着这个。”

Andrew Wilkinson: You just got to wear it really covertly.

安德鲁·威尔金森：你只需非常隐蔽地佩戴它即可。

Honestly, I know it sounds kind of cheesy because you think like, "Oh, it'll tell her," right?

老实说，我知道这听起来有点俗气，因为你会想，“哦，它会告诉她，”对吧？

But in reality, usually you're both guilty in the fight.

但实际上，通常你们在争斗中都是有罪的。

And my girlfriend has actually appreciated it because there's been half the time it'll be like, "Oh yeah, Zoe said this and it triggered this," but a lot of the time it's me too.

我的女朋友实际上很欣赏这一点，因为有一半的时间会这样，“哦，是的，佐伊说了这个，它触发了这个，”但很多时候也是我。

And I think I'm totally right.

我认为我是完全正确的。

So I find it actually really helpful.

所以我发现它确实很有帮助。

Other tools, I mean otherwise, it's the basic stack of Claude and ChatGPT and Gemini.

其他工具，我的意思是其他工具，它是 Claude 和 ChatGPT 以及 Gemini 的基本堆栈。

And Gemini I use mostly for things that are really large.

我主要用 Gemini 来处理非常大的东西。

So for example, all my medical records, I have trained on Gemini 2.5 just because the other ones can't really go through it all.

例如，我所有的医疗记录，我都在 Gemini 2.5 上进行训练，只是因为其他人无法真正完成这一切。

Claude, I use for writing very extensively.

克劳德，我广泛用于写作。

I find it's the best for that.

我发现这是最好的。

Andrew Wilkinson: And then ChatGPT for everything else.

Andrew Wilkinson：然后是 ChatGPT 来了解其他一切。

In terms of cool things I do, recently, I went through my entire medicine cabinet and I just took big photos that showed all the different medicines and stuff.

就我所做的很酷的事情而言，最近，我翻遍了整个药柜，只拍了一张大照片，展示了所有不同的药物和东西。

And now I can say something like, "Hey, I'm really tired and stressed out today.

现在我可以这样说：“嘿，我今天真的很累，压力很大。

What supplement should I take and what dose?" Or I'll say, "Remember all the medications I'm taking, whenever I ask you a health question, always remind me in the context of I might be taking that medication." So a few times it's said, "Hey, you shouldn't take this other medication because your genetics say you're not compatible with it and you're already taking this other one." So stuff like that's been really helpful.

我应该服用什么补充剂以及剂量是多少？”或者我会说，“记住我正在服用的所有药物，每当我问你一个健康问题时，总是提醒我我可能正在服用这种药物。”所以有几次有人说，“嘿，你不应该服用另一种药物，因为你的基因表明你与它不相容，而你已经在服用另一种药物了。”所以这样的事情真的很有帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: For that use case, do you come back to a specific conversation where you've given it that context, use a project or something-

Lenny Rachitsky：对于这个用例，你是否会回到一个特定的对话，在其中你已经给了它上下文，使用一个项目或其他东西-

Andrew Wilkinson: No, I say remember.

安德鲁·威尔金森：不，我说记住。

I just say remember these supplements, this is what I have in my medicine cabinet or this is what I take every day.

我只是说记住这些补充剂，这是我药柜里的东西，或者这是我每天服用的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: I see.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我明白了。

So just tap into the memory of ChatGPT.

所以只需利用 ChatGPT 的内存即可。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太棒了。

This makes me remember that.

这让我想起了这一点。

And this connects to other points you've been making, I've started to use ChatGPT deep research to prep for these conversations.

这与您一直提出的其他观点相关，我已经开始使用 ChatGPT 深入研究来为这些对话做准备。

I used to have a researcher who did this for 400 bucks.

我曾经有一个研究员花了 400 美元做这件事。

They did research on every guest that I had, four to 500 bucks, and gave me a whole doc, "Here's everything about them.

他们花了 4 到 500 美元对我的每一位客人进行了研究，并给了我一份完整的文件，“这是关于他们的一切。

Here's their background, here's questions you might want to ask." Deep research is better.

这是他们的背景，这是你可能想问的问题。”深入研究更好。

Just as of recently, especially with o3-pro.

就最近而言，尤其是 o3-pro。

Andrew Wilkinson: We were talking earlier about agents.

安德鲁·威尔金森：我们之前讨论过代理。

I forgot one of my favorite agents.

我忘记了我最喜欢的经纪人之一。

So it looks on my calendar 30 minutes before I meet anyone.

所以在我见到任何人之前 30 分钟，它就会出现在我的日历上。

It goes on to Perplexity and it does a deep dive on the person and it sends me, it goes into my email and it gets the context of the meeting.

它继续到困惑，它对这个人进行了深入的研究，然后它发送给我，进入我的电子邮件并获取会议的背景。

So often I book meetings three months out.

我经常预订三个月后的会议。

So I usually look at my calendar and I go, "Who is this person?

所以我通常会看一下我的日历，然后问：“这个人是谁？

I don't even remember booking this meeting." It'll text me before and it'll say, "Here's who you are, here's your background, here's the email context of why we're meeting." And it basically does all the research for me.

我什至不记得预订了这次会议。”它之前会发短信给我，它会说：“这是你的身份，这是你的背景，这是我们见面原因的电子邮件背景。”它基本上为我完成了所有的研究。

So I do the same thing.

所以我也做同样的事情。

I also use deep research and say, "If I'm meeting them, you know everything about me.

我还进行深入研究并说：“如果我见到他们，你就会了解我的一切。

What are our commonalities and what are all the fun things we should talk about?"

我们的共同点是什么？我们应该谈论哪些有趣的事情？”

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh my God, I just want to plug and play all these agents you've built to use them myself.

Lenny Rachitsky：天哪，我只想即插即用您构建的所有这些代理，以便我自己使用它们。

Interestingly, I tried to create an agent to do this research kickoff for me, but I don't think you can automate ChatGPT deep research.

有趣的是，我尝试创建一个代理来为我启动这项研究，但我不认为你可以自动化 ChatGPT 深度研究。

Okay.

好的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Perplexity is great too, but it's different.

困惑也很大，但它是不同的。

Okay.

好的。

So let me follow this thread I was going down, which is around job displacement.

那么让我继续关注我正在讨论的这个话题，它是关于工作替代的。

I know you think a lot about this.

我知道你对此想了很多。

So with me, this researcher as a contractor I was working with for a few months, I no longer need them.

因此，对于我来说，这位研究人员作为与我合作了几个月的承包商，我不再需要他们了。

Your assistant, you no longer need.

你的助手，你不再需要了。

Thoughts on just the impact we're going to see on jobs as a result of AI.

关于人工智能对就业产生的影响的思考。

Andrew Wilkinson: There's this great William Gibson quote, "The future is already here, it's just not evenly distributed." And I think that we are in the Palm Treo phase.

安德鲁·威尔金森：威廉·吉​​布森有句伟大的名言：“未来已经到来，只是分布不均。”我认为我们正处于 Palm Treo 阶段。

Do you remember the Palm Treo?

你还记得 Palm Treo 吗？

Andrew Wilkinson: So when I was, let's see, in 2007 I think, was that when the iPhone came out?

安德鲁·威尔金森：那么我想，2007 年，iPhone 就是在那个时候问世的？

2007?

2007年？

Andrew Wilkinson: Something like that.

安德鲁·威尔金森：类似的事情。

In 2007, there was this device called the Palm Treo and it was like a little PDA with a stylus and it had a little modem attachment.

2007 年，出现了一款名为 Palm Treo 的设备，它就像一个带有手写笔的小型 PDA，并且有一个小型调制解调器附件。

And so what you could do is you could get your email anywhere and that was this shocking thing.

所以你可以做的是你可以在任何地方收到你的电子邮件，这是一件令人震惊的事情。

It had a black and white or barely color screen and you could go in and email people.

它有一个黑白或几乎彩色的屏幕，你可以进去给人们发电子邮件。

And I remember walking through the mall buying shoes while answering business emails and going, "This is the ultimate freedom.

我记得一边逛商场一边买鞋子，一边回复商业电子邮件，然后说道：“这是终极的自由。

This is incredible." But the problem with that device was it sucked.

这太不可思议了。”但该设备的问题是它很糟糕。

You had to use a stylus, it's not a good user experience.

你必须使用手写笔，这不是一个很好的用户体验。

And then the iPhone comes out and you're like, "Okay, this is what I was waiting for.

然后 iPhone 面世，你会想，“好吧，这就是我一直在等待的。

This is the real thing." But I got a little preview with the Palm Treo and so right now people like me who have the time and skillset to nerd out and build the agents can do this.

这是真实的事情。”但我对 Palm Treo 进行了一些预览，所以现在像我这样有时间和技能来研究和构建代理的人可以做到这一点。

It's just not accessible to everybody.

它只是不是每个人都能接触到的。

Andrew Wilkinson: And I think that if it was accessible to everybody in terms of if you could just open ChatGPT and say, "Hey, ChatGPT, I run a business, can you help me?" And it started asking you questions and it said, "Oh well you do sales.

Andrew Wilkinson：我认为，如果每个人都可以访问它，如果你可以打开 ChatGPT 并说：“嘿，ChatGPT，我经营一家企业，你能帮助我吗？”它开始问你问题，然后说：“哦，好吧，你是做销售的。

Do you want me to set up a sales agent?

您要我设立销售代理吗？

Okay, great, plug in your HubSpot API, now tell me a few things and then give me access to all your data." And then before you know it, it's just a digital employee that's on the other end of the phone on ChatGPT just like in the movie, Her, that you can talk to and it can go do stuff.

好的，太好了，插入您的 HubSpot API，现在告诉我一些事情，然后让我访问您的所有数据。”然后，在您意识到之前，它只是 ChatGPT 电话另一端的数字员工，就像电影《她》中一样，您可以与它交谈，它可以做一些事情。

I think that is kind of the iPhone moment that we're going to have in some time in the next five years.

我认为这就是我们将在未来五年内经历的 iPhone 时刻。

And so I think that if AI doesn't progress, we will see some serious job displacement, like what you already mentioned, the translators, the researchers, the admin, some assistant jobs, depending on the kind of work they do, those jobs will definitely be massively affected.

所以我认为，如果人工智能不进步，我们将会看到一些严重的工作岗位流失，就像你已经提到的那样，翻译人员、研究人员、行政人员、一些助理工作，取决于他们所做的工作类型，这些工作肯定会受到巨大影响。

Andrew Wilkinson: But I think pretty quick, all knowledge work jobs could be affected if the models scale in the way that they say they're going to.

安德鲁·威尔金森：但我认为很快，如果模型按照他们所说的方式扩展，所有知识工作都可能受到影响。

I mean if you trust Sam Altman and Dario Amodei, I mean Dario Amodei said by, "2027, our models will be smarter than all PhDs." So in any subject.

我的意思是，如果你相信 Sam Altman 和 Dario Amodei，我的意思是 Dario Amodei 说过，“2027 年，我们的模型将比所有博士更聪明。”所以在任何科目上。

That is a staggering statement.

这是一个令人震惊的声明。

And he's been a very conservative kind of almost fearful voice in the AI world.

在人工智能领域，他的声音非常保守，几乎令人恐惧。

Very cautious to say things like that.

说这样的话非常谨慎。

And so when he said that, I perked up and started listening carefully.

所以当他这么说的时候，我就打起精神，开始仔细地听。

I don't know that that's how it's going to play out.

我不知道事情会这样发展。

He might be trying to fundraise, we have to take it with a grain of salt.

他可能想筹集资金，我们必须持保留态度。

But if that's true, then I think so many knowledge work jobs are going to change massively.

但如果这是真的，那么我认为许多知识型工作将会发生巨大的变化。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, there's a lot here.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，这里有很多东西。

I actually had Mike on the podcast, their CPL, Mike Krieger, and he pointed out that Dario, every prediction he's had so far has been right over the past few years.

事实上，我的播客上有迈克，他们的 CPL，迈克·克里格，他指出达里奥，他迄今为止的每一个预测在过去几年都是正确的。

And so there's a reason to listen to his insights.

因此，我们有理由聆听他的见解。

Okay.

好的。

Andrew, I know you're not going to have all the answers for people.

安德鲁，我知道你不会为人们提供所有答案。

But let me ask you kind of a two-part question for new grads and for people currently in the workforce say like, I don't know, senior product manager advice on what they should do, where should they focus?

但是，让我问你一个由两部分组成的问题，针对应届毕业生和目前在职人员，我不知道，高级产品经理建议他们应该做什么，应该关注哪里？

What skills will matter most?

什么技能最重要？

What jobs do you think will last?

你认为哪些工作会持续下去？

What advice can you give us?

您能给我们什么建议？

Andrew Wilkinson: Everybody 10 years ago, do you remember there was this whole movement that we should teach kids how to code?

安德鲁·威尔金森：各位，十年前，你们还记得我们应该教孩子们如何编码的整个运动吗？

Remember that?

还记得吗？

Andrew Wilkinson: Now teaching kids how to code is teaching kids Basic and we have a GUI, right?

Andrew Wilkinson：现在教孩子们如何编码就是教孩子们基础知识，我们有一个 GUI，对吗？

You don't need to learn punch cards and basic programming or MS-DOS because we all have keyboards and mice.

您不需要学习打孔卡和基本编程或 MS-DOS，因为我们都有键盘和鼠标。

We don't have to do that.

我们不必这样做。

And I feel like coding has really gone away because of that.

我觉得编码真的因此而消失了。

And I think now people are saying people need to learn how to prompt, which I think is very true for the tool set right now.

我认为现在人们说人们需要学习如何提示，我认为这对于目前的工具集来说是非常正确的。

But I don't know how relevant that is in the future because I think we're still, again, in the Palm Treo phase, I think that the AIs will be very good at eliciting what the actual problem you're trying to solve is and reinterpreting it in a way that it can optimize the query to get the right answer and solve the problem.

但我不知道这在未来有多重要，因为我认为我们仍然处于 Palm Treo 阶段，我认为人工智能将非常擅长引出你想要解决的实际问题是什么，并以一种可以优化查询以获得正确答案并解决问题的方式重新解释它。

Andrew Wilkinson: And so I think the fundamental question is do all jobs just become a single prompt?

安德鲁·威尔金森：所以我认为根本的问题是所有的工作都变成一个单一的提示吗？

For example, does a CEO just grow the business while making the customers happy and turning a profit or something like that?

例如，首席执行官是否只是在发展业务的同时让客户满意并实现盈利或类似的事情？

And it is able to actually be an omniscient presence that can run a whole company.

它实际上可以成为一个无所不知的存在，可以管理整个公司。

Now that's a big I'm someone building AI agents.

现在这已经是一个大事了，我是一个构建人工智能代理的人。

I can barely get it to reliably do calendar entries and that kind of stuff.

我几乎无法让它可靠地进行日历条目之类的事情。

So I don't think that's totally imminent, but I can certainly see a world where that's coming.

所以我不认为这完全迫在眉睫，但我肯定可以看到一个即将到来的世界。

And so the question is, what is one to do when that reality is barreling down at you?

那么问题来了，当现实向你袭来时，你该怎么办？

For people who have resources, I think there's a lot of things they can do in terms of investment, they can invest in the companies that'll benefit from this, companies that have a lot of compute or energy or that sort of thing.

对于拥有资源的人来说，我认为他们在投资方面可以做很多事情，他们可以投资那些将从中受益的公司，那些拥有大量计算或能源之类的公司。

Andrew Wilkinson: So that's one thing, but that's not really the question.

安德鲁·威尔金森：这是一回事，但这并不是真正的问题。

The question is what do you do if you're a smart 18-year-old or 19-year-old or whatever?

问题是，如果你是一个聪明的 18 岁或 19 岁或其他什么人，你会做什么？

In my opinion, I think the best thing to do right now is to get incredibly good with these tools and utilize them to build enough wealth that you can put the money into diversifying into compute and energy.

在我看来，我认为现在最好的事情就是充分利用这些工具，并利用它们创造足够的财富，以便您可以将资金投入到计算和能源领域。

And I do think that while everybody thinks that all jobs will go away in five years and robots will be everywhere, people generally overestimate things in the short term and underestimate them in the long term.

我确实认为，虽然每个人都认为五年内所有工作都会消失，机器人将无处不在，但人们通常会高估短期事物，而低估长期事物。

So I think there's going to be this long window where robotics is not anywhere near good enough to even do raking leaves and stuff.

所以我认为，在很长的一段时间内，机器人技术还远远不够好，甚至无法完成耙树叶之类的事情。

And I think there's going to be a ton of opportunity for people to just spin up new businesses that never existed before.

我认为人们将有大量的机会来创办以前从未存在过的新业务。

Andrew Wilkinson: I was talking to some friends and we were like, "What do you do in a world of abundance where everything is really cheap and companies operate almost autonomously?" I think there's a lot of weird skillsets that we can't imagine right now.

安德鲁·威尔金森：我和一些朋友聊天，我们问，“在一个一切都很便宜、公司几乎自主运营的物质丰富的世界里，你会做什么？”我认为有很多奇怪的技能是我们现在无法想象的。

For example, just being funny, right?

例如，只是搞笑，对吧？

Being funny to hang out with them.

和他们一起出去玩很有趣。

Think about OnlyFans, right?

想想OnlyFans吧？

Right now, there's this whole idea of OnlyFans where people are paying for comfort and connection, but in a romantic sense.

现在，OnlyFans 的整体理念是，人们为舒适和联系付费，而且是在浪漫的意义上。

Imagine people did that day to day, they just love hanging out with funny people.

想象一下人们每天都这样做，他们只是喜欢和有趣的人一起出去玩。

So you have a funny guy who you chat with or comes over to your house or whatever it is, I'm making stuff up.

所以你有一个有趣的人，你可以和他聊天，或者到你家来，或者无论什么，我正在编造一些东西。

Maybe it's a guy who comes to play pickleball with you or something, I don't know.

也许是一个人和你一起玩匹克球之类的，我不知道。

But I can imagine that in this weird world, there's all these weird new jobs.

但我可以想象，在这个奇怪的世界里，有很多奇怪的新工作。

Andrew Wilkinson: So I think my take is things will either be totally fine or they will be terrible and we'll all be dead.

安德鲁·威尔金森：所以我认为我的看法是，事情要么完全好，要么会很糟糕，我们都会死。

And I can't predict which those is there.

我无法预测那里有哪些。

I don't think it's worth thinking about all of us being dead.

我认为不值得考虑我们所有人都死了。

And so I think it's really just lean into what are the tools, how do you stay cutting edge?

所以我认为这实际上只是专注于工具是什么，如何保持领先地位？

How do you build businesses and wealth in this new world?

您如何在这个新世界中建立业务和财富？

But I am certainly feeling a little bit like all of our brains could be defunct in the next 10 years.

但我确实感觉我们所有的大脑都可能在未来十年内失效。

And that's kind of a scary thought.

这是一个可怕的想法。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm picturing this dystopian world where humans are just going around making jokes.

Lenny Rachitsky：我正在想象这个反乌托邦的世界，人类只是到处开玩笑。

Andrew Wilkinson: Where does status come from in a world of abundance?

安德鲁·威尔金森：在一个富裕的世界里，地位从何而来？

Where does status come from?

地位从何而来？

Maybe it is just like being the best at hiking or something.

也许这就像成为最擅长徒步旅行之类的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Well, let me ask you this because this is where it gets even more real is just with your kids.

Lenny Rachitsky：好吧，让我问你这个问题，因为只有在你的孩子身上，事情才变得更加真实。

What are you encouraging them to learn?

你鼓励他们学习什么？

What are you encouraging them to get good at?

您鼓励他们擅长什么？

Because this is the real problem a lot of people are having right now is what will matter in the future.

因为这是很多人现在面临的真正问题，也是未来的问题。

Obviously we don't know, but what are you encouraging them to focus on?

显然我们不知道，但你鼓励他们关注什么？

Andrew Wilkinson: Well, I don't know.

安德鲁·威尔金森：嗯，我不知道。

I mean there's so little, they're five and eight.

我的意思是数量太少了，只有五个和八个。

And so really what I'm focused on is making sure they're socialized and they're polite, very basic.

所以我真正关注的是确保他们能够社交、有礼貌、非常基本。

So are they comfortable talking to adults?

那么他们与成年人交谈舒服吗？

I often send my son, whenever he wants something at a cafe, I always make him go up, ask nicely, pay himself, all that kind of stuff.

我经常送我儿子去咖啡馆，每当他想要什么东西时，我总是让他上去，友善地询问，自己付钱，诸如此类的事情。

But at this point I feel like for the first 10 years of life, you're just trying to make sure that they're not traumatized or rude.

但在这一点上，我觉得在生命的前十年里，你只是想确保他们没有受到创伤或粗鲁。

And I think it's going to be really interesting when they're 10 plus where they're really aware of this stuff and can start building with these tools.

我认为当他们 10 岁以上时，他们真正了解这些东西并可以开始使用这些工具进行构建，这将非常有趣。

And to be honest, I just don't know.

说实话，我就是不知道。

I think I just want them to lean into whatever they're passionate about and go from there.

我想我只是希望他们能够投身于他们所热衷的事物，并从那里开始。

But I have no idea.

但我不知道。

And to be honest, it's not something I'm worrying about because it's too hard to worry about.

说实话，这不是我担心的事情，因为它太难担心了。

I don't know, it's too multivariate.

我不知道，这太多元化了。

There's too many ways it can go.

它可以走的路太多了。

Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like a core part of your message is just get good with these tools.

Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得您的信息的核心部分是善于使用这些工具。

There's this classic quote, "AI won't replace you, it'll be somebody very good using AI is going to replace you," at least for a while.

有一句经典的名言是：“人工智能不会取代你，而是那些非常擅长使用人工智能的人会取代你”，至少在一段时间内是这样。

And so it feels like a big part of this is just use these things.

所以感觉其中很大一部分就是使用这些东西。

Before we started recording, we were having a mic issue and I love you just went straight to ChatGPT, "ChatGPT, how do I connect this mic to reverse side and make it work?" And I feel like that's just a habit to build is just like go to ChatGPT whenever you have a problem like that.

在我们开始录音之前，我们遇到了麦克风问题，我喜欢你直接转到 ChatGPT，“ChatGPT，我如何将这个麦克风连接到反面并使其工作？”我觉得这只是一个需要养成的习惯，就像遇到此类问题时就去 ChatGPT 一样。

I've been doing that a lot.

我已经做了很多次了。

I was connecting a subwoofer from what wire do I need to buy to connect the subwoofer to the receiver?

我正在连接低音炮，需要购买什么电线才能将低音炮连接到接收器？

Andrew Wilkinson: Well, the best part about ChatGPT is I used to just get stuck and I have ADHD.

Andrew Wilkinson：嗯，关于 ChatGPT 最好的部分是我过去常常陷入困境，而且我患有多动症。

So when I got stuck, let's say, what's an example?

所以当我陷入困境时，我们可以举个例子吗？

I was redoing my home IT security.

我正在重做我的家庭 IT 安全。

And what will happen is I'll be in the terminal and I'll enter something and then something goes wrong and it just keeps erroring.

将会发生的情况是，我在终端中输入一些内容，然后出现问题，并且不断出错。

And then I'm like, "Well, I'm out." I have ADHD, I can't tolerate this.

然后我就说：“好吧，我出去了。”我患有多动症，我无法忍受这个。

I just lose the thread completely.

我完全失去了线索。

And ChatGPT allows me to stay on track and go so much further and faster than I ever could before.

ChatGPT 让我能够保持在正轨上，并且比以前走得更远、更快。

I love not being artificially stopped in your tracks and being able to continue the flow state as a result.

我喜欢不被人为地阻止你的脚步，并因此能够继续心流状态。

Lenny Rachitsky: And also I noticed you were using voice mode, which is what I've been using more and more.

Lenny Rachitsky：我还注意到你正在使用语音模式，这也是我越来越多地使用的模式。

And I feel like that's something a lot of people sleep on is just the voice mode where you could talk to it and not have to sit there and type your questions.

我觉得很多人都在关注的就是语音模式，你可以与它交谈，而不必坐在那里输入你的问题。

Okay, so let me go in a different direction.

好吧，那我就换个方向吧。

You've been spending a lot of time, you wrote a whole book about this, of just your journey from, you call it Barista to Billionaire where you started serving coffee, then you ended up being very successful, then realize that didn't make you happy.

你花了很多时间，写了一整本书，讲述了你的旅程，从你称之为咖啡师到亿万富翁，你开始提供咖啡，然后你最终非常成功，然后意识到这并没有让你快乐。

You're quite unhappy with lots and lots of money.

你对很多很多的钱很不满意。

I think a lot of people hear these stories, they see this stuff, they're like, "Yeah, okay, I sort of get it." But they still do the same sorts of things.

我想很多人听过这些故事，看到这些东西，他们会说，“是的，好吧，我有点明白了。”但他们仍然做同样的事情。

They still assume they will be happy once they reach that next goal, that next title, make certain dollar amount.

他们仍然认为，一旦达到下一个目标、下一个冠军、赚到一定的钱，他们就会感到高兴。

What can you share?

你能分享什么？

What have you learned about just what it actually takes to be happy that you think people are still not really recognizing and still kind of are confused about?

当你认为人们还没有真正认识到这一点并且仍然感到困惑时，你学到了什么才能真正感到幸福？

Andrew Wilkinson: Do you remember when you're in your early 20s?

安德鲁·威尔金森：你还记得你20岁出头的时候吗？

I remember when I was in my early 20s, I'd always be like, "I need to move away to Europe.

我记得当我 20 岁出头的时候，我总是会说，“我需要搬到欧洲去。

I need to go discover myself." And I'd be really anxious and stressed out and in an existential crisis and then I'd fly to Europe to go backpacking or something and I'd still feel anxious and have my existential crisis.

我需要去发现自己。”我会感到非常焦虑和压力，处于生存危机中，然后我飞往欧洲去背包旅行或其他什么，但我仍然感到焦虑并遇到生存危机。

It's just now I'm in Europe.

我现在刚刚在欧洲。

And I think the reality is that whatever's in your brain, whatever that anxiety loop is, doesn't go away just because you have a bigger house or more money in the bank account or you're in Bali or wherever it is, that's a chemical reaction happening inside you that relates to your past and your DNA and all that stuff that creates that soup.

我认为现实情况是，无论你的大脑里有什么，无论焦虑循环是什么，都不会仅仅因为你有更大的房子或银行账户中有更多的钱或者你在巴厘岛或任何地方而消失，那是你体内发生的化学反应，与你的过去、你的 DNA 以及所有创造汤的东西有关。

And for me, I've always been a very anxious person.

而对于我来说，我一直是一个非常焦虑的人。

I've always worried about tomorrow, I rarely enjoy today, I'm always worrying about what could go wrong in health or my businesses or with my family or whatever it is.

我总是担心明天，我很少享受今天，我总是担心健康、我的生意、我的家人或其他什么方面可能会出现问题。

Andrew Wilkinson: And so when I started my business, all I thought was I just don't want to work for someone else.

安德鲁·威尔金森：所以当我开始创业时，我只想到我只是不想为别人工作。

If I can just wake up in the morning, do my own thing, make 60K a year, then I'll be happy.

如果我能早上起床，做自己的事，一年赚 6 万，那我就很开心了。

So I got that and then it was once I make a million dollars a year and I can buy a house, well, I got that and so on and so on and so on all the way up to at one point being worth over a billion dollars, by the way, should redo the title of the book from Barista to Billionaire, now it's former billionaire because our stock went down, but it didn't change anything.

所以我明白了，然后有一次我每年赚一百万美元，我可以买一栋房子，嗯，我得到了这个，等等等等，一直到价值超过十亿美元，顺便说一句，应该把书名从咖啡师改成亿万富翁，现在是前亿万富翁，因为我们的股票下跌了，但这并没有改变任何东西。

I'm still just as anxious as ever.

我还是像以前一样着急。

I remember a month ago, I had this day where I was sitting in the sauna and I was stressing about a bunch of business problems and money things and I stopped myself and I was like, "Wait a minute."

我记得一个月前，有一天我坐在桑拿房里，我为一堆业务问题和金钱问题而感到压力，我停下来，我说，“等一下。”

Andrew Wilkinson: 10 years ago I had all the same thoughts and I was stressed out about similar kinds of problems and our revenue was $20 million bucks or $15 million bucks.

安德鲁·威尔金森：10 年前，我也有同样的想法，我对类似的问题感到压力很大，而我们的收入是 2000 万美元或 1500 万美元。

Now we're at almost 300 million and I'm still stressed about the same things.

现在我们的人口已接近 3 亿，但我仍然对同样的事情感到压力。

And the saddest part was as I met more and more wealthier people all the way up to multibillionaires, I realized they were all still comparing themselves to their peers, competing over who has what and tracking stuff and still unhappy that anxiety loop or depression was still in their brain.

最悲伤的是，当我遇到越来越多的富人，一直到亿万富翁时，我意识到他们仍然在与同龄人进行比较，竞争谁拥有什么并跟踪东西，但仍然对焦虑循环或抑郁仍然存在于他们的大脑中感到不满。

I remember I had this moment where I met this guy who is a single-digit multibillionaire, and he goes, "Oh, Jeff Bezos, he's just so fucking rich." And I was like, "Wait, what do you mean you're worth $5 billion?

我记得有一次我遇到了一个亿万富翁，他说：“哦，杰夫·贝佐斯，他真是太有钱了。”我当时想，“等等，你说你身价 50 亿美元是什么意思？

What can he do that you can't?" And he goes, "He can buy a super yacht." And it's like, "What?"

有什么是他能做而你做不到的？”他说：“他可以买一艘超级游艇。”就像，“什么？”

Andrew Wilkinson: You can look at that guy and you can say, "Oh, that's a wacko and all the other stuff." But the reality is that we're all just comparing ourselves to our peers, whatever our peers have that we don't feel hard done by.

安德鲁·威尔金森：你可以看着那个家伙，你可以说，“哦，那是个疯子，还有其他的东西。”但现实是，我们都只是将自己与同龄人进行比较，无论我们的同龄人有什么让我们感到不舒服的东西。

And I remember just thinking like, "Oh my God, how do I avoid becoming this?" And that's the scary reality is no matter how lucky you are, I mean we're also fortunate.

我记得我当时就想，“天啊，我怎样才能避免变成这样呢？”这就是可怕的现实，无论你多么幸运，我的意思是我们也很幸运。

For me, I live in Canada.

对我来说，我住在加拿大。

I have every opportunity that I ever could have hoped for.

我拥有我所希望的一切机会。

And there's people all over the world who have nowhere near what I had growing up.

世界各地都有一些人的成长经历与我相差甚远。

And yet I felt hard done by because in my neighborhood I was the poor kid.

然而，我却感到很难过，因为在我的邻居里，我是个可怜的孩子。

I wasn't poor globally.

我在全球范围内并不贫穷。

I wasn't even poor based on Canada.

就加拿大而言，我什至都不穷。

But all my friends had big screen TVs and would go to Hawaii and I never got to do any of that stuff.

但我所有的朋友都有大屏幕电视，并且会去夏威夷，而我从来没有做过任何这些事情。

My parents were stressed about money.

我的父母因金钱而感到压力。

So I feel hard done by.

所以我觉得很难受。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's a phrase of friend's financial advisor once shared, "The Joneses are doing really well," and that's hard to get over.

Lenny Rachitsky：朋友的财务顾问曾经分享过一句话，“琼斯一家做得非常好”，这很难克服。

So what changes did you make to just be happier?

那么，为了变得更快乐，你做了哪些改变呢？

It's hard to give up money.

很难放弃金钱。

It's hard to give up more money you could make.

很难放弃你能赚到的更多钱。

It's hard to give up things that money buys, I guess just so what did you change?

金钱买来的东西很难放弃，我想你改变了什么？

Andrew Wilkinson: Well, there's a few things.

安德鲁·威尔金森：嗯，有几件事。

I mean, one was reframing money to some degree to have it be something that wasn't just about feathering my own nest and making it better.

我的意思是，人们在某种程度上重新定义了金钱，让它不仅仅是为了让自己的小窝变得更加美好。

So for example, I was talking to a friend who's very wealthy and I was saying all the feelings I described of have all this and yet I don't feel better.

举例来说，我正在和一位非常富有的朋友交谈，我说我所描述的所有感受都有这一切，但我并没有感觉更好。

And he said, "Well, what are you working for?" And I said, "Well, I guess I'm just working for the numbers to get bigger and have more employees and that's nice.

他说：“那么，你工作是为了什么？”我说：“好吧，我想我只是在努力扩大规模并拥有更多员工，这很好。

Our businesses do good things in the world and help more people and stuff, but ultimately it's just to pile up cash." And he said, "I've reframed it so that all my money, 90% of my money plus, goes into my philanthropic foundation and then it gets given away to great causes.

我们的企业在世界上做善事，帮助更多的人和事，但最终只是为了积累现金。”他说：“我重新设计了它，让我所有的钱，90%以上的钱，都进入我的慈善基金会，然后捐给伟大的事业。

So when I think about working really hard or losing a deal or an investment going well, the win isn't for me.

因此，当我想到努力工作或失去一笔交易或一项进展顺利的投资时，胜利并不属于我。

The win is about doing something good."

胜利就是做一些好事。”

Andrew Wilkinson: So I did that and that definitely helped.

安德鲁·威尔金森：所以我这么做了，这确实有帮助。

I also stopped spending as much money.

我也不再花那么多钱了。

I found that the more stuff I had, the more houses I had, the more people that directly worked for me to manage all that stuff, the less happy, I was owned by my stuff.

我发现我拥有的东西越多，我拥有的房子越多，直接为我工作来管理所有这些东西的人就越多，我就越不高兴，我被我的东西所拥有。

And then I work really hard not to have people...

然后我真的很努力工作，不让别人...

I try not to beat people over the head with it.

我尽量不用它来敲打别人。

I drive a normal car.

我开一辆普通汽车。

I don't bring people to my house until I know them really, really well.

在我非常非常了解人们之前，我不会带他们来我家。

I meet them on neutral ground, I meet them in a cafe.

我在中立的地方遇见他们，我在咖啡馆遇见他们。

I dress like a schmo.

我穿得像个笨蛋。

I just try not to be a weird out of touch rich person.

我只是尽量不要成为一个奇怪的、与世隔绝的富人。

But the biggest thing, which is a weird answer, is actually medicating myself.

但最重要的事情，也是一个奇怪的答案，实际上是在给自己用药。

So basically all my life I've been really anxious.

所以基本上我一生都非常焦虑。

Andrew Wilkinson: And in 2020, I remember I was watching a movie with my ex-wife and I was looping on, "I need to respond to this email.

安德鲁·威尔金森：2020 年，我记得我正在和前妻一起看电影，我一直在循环说：“我需要回复这封电子邮件。

If I don't respond to that email, this person's going to be mad." And then I realized that I was watching a movie for the last 20 minutes and I didn't know anything about what was happening in the movie.

如果我不回复那封电子邮件，这个人就会生气。”然后我意识到我在看电影的最后20分钟，而我对电影中发生的事情一无所知。

And then I was going, "Oh my God, my wife is going to be mad at me.

然后我就说：“天啊，我妻子会生我的气的。

We're going to get in a fight," and I'm projecting all this negative stuff.

我们会打架，”我正在投射所有这些负面的东西。

And in that moment I was like, "Okay, maybe I do need to try an SSRI or something.

在那一刻我想，“好吧，也许我确实需要尝试 SSRI 之类的。

This is not sustainable." And so I went to my doctor and I got prescribed with one, and I remember I was so scared of it that I cut it into 10 pieces.

这是不可持续的。”于是我去看了医生，医生给我开了一颗，我记得我非常害怕它，所以我把它切成了 10 块。

I said, "I'm just going to take a tiny little piece."

我说：“我只想拿一小块。”

Andrew Wilkinson: And it took me six months after that to try any.

安德鲁·威尔金森：在那之后我花了六个月的时间才尝试。

But I started taking these pieces every day and I just noticed that within about three or four days, it was like someone had turned down the volume on the nasty voice inside of me doing all that.

但我开始每天都拍摄这些作品，我注意到在大约三四天之内，就像有人在做这一切时降低了我内心讨厌的声音的音量。

And for the first time in my life I felt relief.

我有生以来第一次感到如释重负。

No amount of money or success or attention or anything else had done what this little tiny yellow pill could do for my mental state.

再多的金钱、成功、关注或其他任何东西都无法像这颗黄色的小药丸那样改善我的精神状态。

And so now I've been on an SSRI for four and a half years or something like that.

现在我已经服用 SSRI 药物四年半左右了。

And then I also started medicating my ADHD.

然后我也开始治疗我的多动症。

And I would say that my brain went from Times Square to a quiet library.

我想说我的大脑从时代广场转移到了一个安静的图书馆。

And I think a lot of people are scared of that, but ultimately most people are acting out something that's going on inside of them.

我认为很多人对此感到害怕，但最终大多数人都是在表现出他们内心正在发生的事情。

There's a trauma or something medically going on and that's creating this anxiety, this depression, this feeling and addressing that is so much more important than trying to get praise from the external world.

创伤或医学上的某些事情正在发生，这会造成这种焦虑、抑郁、这种感觉，而解决这些问题比试图从外部世界获得赞扬要重要得多。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, it's really powerful.

Lenny Rachitsky：哇，它真的很强大。

I really am really thankful you're sharing this.

我真的非常感谢你分享这个。

The advice most people hear, the general, I don't know, culture is just like, "No, don't take meds.

大多数人听到的建议，一般来说，我不知道，文化就像是，“不，不要吃药。

Don't medicate yourself, I don't know, there's all these downsides, all this risk.

不要给自己用药，我不知道，这有所有这些缺点，所有这些风险。

The pharma industry is trying to make money." I love this other perspective of it.

制药行业正在努力赚钱。”我喜欢它的另一种观点。

It's actually really effective and actually makes a big difference in your life and it may be the only solution.

它实际上非常有效，并且实际上会给您的生活带来很大的改变，并且它可能是唯一的解决方案。

Andrew Wilkinson: Well, it's funny because if you have a headache, I don't think many people say, "Oh, don't take Tylenol, you're benefiting Johnson & Johnson, big pharma." They go, "Yeah, you take a Tylenol when you have a headache." Or a lot of people have seasonal allergies and they take antihistamines and they forget that histamine is not just in your nose, histamines in your brain and everywhere in your body.

安德鲁·威尔金森：嗯，这很有趣，因为如果你头痛，我认为很多人不会说，“哦，不要服用泰诺，你会让强生公司这家大型制药公司受益。”他们说：“是的，头痛时就服用泰诺。”或者很多人有季节性过敏症，他们服用抗组胺药，但他们忘记了组胺不仅存在于您的鼻子中，组胺还存在于您的大脑中以及您身体的各个部位。

And so when you take an antihistamine or even a Tylenol, you're changing your brain, you're changing the way you think, you're changing everything.

因此，当您服用抗组胺药甚至泰诺时，您正在改变您的大脑，您正在改变您的思维方式，您正在改变一切。

And yet for some reason, people are so scared, myself included, of taking an SSRI or similar medication to treat something that is ruining their life.

然而出于某种原因，人们（包括我自己）非常害怕服用 SSRI 或类似药物来治疗正在毁掉他们生活的疾病。

Anxiety was ruining my life.

焦虑正在毁掉我的生活。

Every minute of every day I was convinced that something terrible was about to happen.

每天的每一分钟我都确信有可怕的事情即将发生。

And even now medicated, I still have that voice.

即使现在接受药物治疗，我仍然有那个声音。

It's not like that frankly beneficial voice that helps you grow your business or whatever becomes unproductive at a certain point.

它不像那种坦率有益的声音可以帮助您发展业务或在某个时候变得毫无生产力。

And I think that it is wonderful to be able to actually just get a little bit of solace from it.

我认为能够从中得到一点安慰真是太好了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Well, for folks that, I mentioned many folks listening, are like, "Oh man, I should really explore this," what's the best way to explore is to talk to your primary care physician?

Lenny Rachitsky：嗯，对于那些，我提到很多人在听的人来说，“哦，伙计，我真的应该探索这个，”最好的探索方式是与你的初级保健医生交谈？

Andrew Wilkinson: Yeah.

安德鲁·威尔金森：是的。

I think talking to your doctor, and one note I think a lot of people miss is when I was so scared of side effects because you hear about all these horrific side effects of people lose their libido and feel terrible and stuff.

我想和你的医生谈谈，我认为很多人都错过了一个注释，那就是当我非常害怕副作用时，因为你听说人们失去性欲并感觉可怕之类的所有这些可怕的副作用。

And so I looked into it and a lot of the side effects are due to the way that people metabolize different drugs.

所以我研究了一下，发现很多副作用是由于人们代谢不同药物的方式造成的。

And so you can actually do your 23andMe or similar DNA test and you can find out how you metabolize different SSRIs.

因此，您实际上可以进行 23andMe 或类似的 DNA 测试，您可以了解不同 SSRI 的代谢情况。

And then I chose one that I could metabolize well.

然后我选择了一种我可以很好代谢的。

And so I've had no side effects or problems.

所以我没有出现任何副作用或问题。

And I know every time I mention this, I get a lot of people that say exactly what you say, big pharma and all this other stuff.

我知道每次我提到这一点时，我都会听到很多人的说法与你所说的一模一样，大型制药公司和所有其他东西。

But I just ask everyone listening, if you take a Tylenol or you take an antihistamine or other medications, I don't know why something that can be so profoundly helpful is something that people need to be afraid of.

但我只是问大家，如果你服用泰诺或抗组胺药或其他药物，我不知道为什么人们需要害怕一些如此有帮助的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Andrew, we've covered so much ground.

安德鲁，我们已经讨论了很多内容。

I love the spectrum of topics we've gone after.

我喜欢我们所追求的一系列主题。

Is there anything else that you wanted to share?

您还有什么想分享的吗？

Anything you wanted to double down on?

有什么你想加倍努力的吗？

Any last nugget you want to leave listeners with before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

在我们进入激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想留给听众的最后一句话吗？

Andrew Wilkinson: One thing that was shocking for me was I was doing...

安德鲁·威尔金森：令我震惊的一件事是我正在做......

My doctor asked me to get a cognitive test, not because I had any problem, but he said, "Look, it's really important to get a baseline in your 30s because then as you age, we can make sure that you're not getting Alzheimer's or dementia or whatever." So I go and I do this test with a neurologist and she asked me a bunch of questions.

我的医生要求我进行认知测试，并不是因为我有任何问题，但他说，“听着，在 30 多岁时获得基线非常重要，因为随着年龄的增长，我们可以确保你不会患上阿尔茨海默氏症或痴呆症或其他疾病。”所以我去和一位神经科医生一起做了这个测试，她问了我很多问题。

It's, "Remember these 10 digits and say them backwards and all this stuff." And finally when I get my test results back, she said, "Look, your crystallized intelligence, your ability to remember stuff, long range is totally fine.

它是，“记住这 10 个数字并倒着念出它们之类的东西。”最后，当我收到测试结果时，她说：“看，你结晶的智力，你记住东西的能力，远距离都完全没问题。

You're above average.

你高于平均水平。

Your short-term memory, your working memory is 10th percentile, very, very bad.

你的短期记忆，你的工作记忆是第十个百分点，非常非常糟糕。

And you probably should get checked for ADHD."

你可能应该检查一下是否患有多动症。”

Andrew Wilkinson: And I was like, "Nope.

安德鲁·威尔金森：我当时想，“不。

There's no way.

没办法啊

I don't have ADHD.

我没有多动症。

I'm organized.

我是有组织的。

I've got to-do lists.

我有待办事项清单。

I built a business.

我创办了一家企业。

I wasn't the hyper kid in school or anything like that." And she said, "Well, look, just humor me.

我不是学校里那个超级孩子之类的。”她说：“好吧，听着，幽默一下吧。

Just go get tested." And so I went through this crazy process.

就去接受检测吧。”所以我经历了这个疯狂的过程。

You can go online and just quickly get tested or whatever.

您可以上网并快速进行测试或其他什么。

But I went through this really, really five-day process to get tested.

但我经历了这个非常非常五天的过程来接受测试。

And it turned out that I do have it.

事实证明我确实拥有它。

And it's really interesting because if you take the normal population of about 5% of people have ADHD, but about 30% of entrepreneurs have ADHD.

这真的很有趣，因为如果以正常人群来看，大约有 5% 的人患有 ADHD，但大约 30% 的企业家患有 ADHD。

And many entrepreneurs I talk to, they love new things.

我采访过的许多企业家都喜欢新事物。

They love jumping around between a million different topics.

他们喜欢在一百万个不同的主题之间跳来跳去。

They're an inch deep and a mile wide like I described.

正如我所描述的，它们有一英寸深，一英里宽。

And they describe themselves as unemployable.

他们形容自己失业了。

And frankly, I remember I was so skeptical of ADHD that when my girlfriend told me, a friend of hers got diagnosed with it, I sarcastically said, "Oh good, she better take some meth," talking about stimulant drugs.

坦率地说，我记得我对多动症非常怀疑，以至于当我的女朋友告诉我，她的一个朋友被诊断出患有多动症时，我讽刺地说，“哦，太好了，她最好服用一些冰毒，”谈论兴奋剂药物。

Andrew Wilkinson: Previously I was very, very skeptical of ADHD, but it is a real brain disorder if you actually dig into it.

安德鲁·威尔金森：以前我对多动症非常非常怀疑，但如果你真正深入研究的话，它是一种真正的大脑疾病。

It's a very real thing, very objective that people have poor executive function.

人们的执行功能很差，这是非常真实、非常客观的事情。

And for me, it's given me a lot more empathy for myself and my behaviors because at work, if you have ADHD, you can delegate to other people and build systems to get around your disability.

对我来说，这让我对自己和自己的行为有了更多的同理心，因为在工作中，如果你患有多动症，你可以委托给其他人并建立系统来解决你的残疾问题。

But at home, that's where it really plays out.

但在家里，这才是真正发挥作用的地方。

And so for me, it's like my girlfriend asked me to take the garbage out, and I say, "Of course." And then I forget three times in a row.

所以对我来说，就像我女朋友让我把垃圾倒出去，我说：“当然。”然后我就连续忘记了三次。

And she views that as you are being very hurtful and you're not caring for me.

她认为你非常伤人而且不关心我。

And it causes all sorts of different problems at home.

它会导致家里出现各种不同的问题。

Andrew Wilkinson: And so for me, not only did it make my work life better because I was more focused, but it actually really helped me in my personal life and it made me feel not broken.

安德鲁·威尔金森：对我来说，它不仅让我的工作生活变得更好，因为我更加专注，而且它实际上对我的个人生活很有帮助，让我感觉没有崩溃。

I always felt a bit broken.

我总觉得有点崩溃。

I couldn't put my finger on why, but I just went, "I'm not good at doing all the things everyone else seems to be able to do no problem." And so I think especially because you have an entrepreneur audience, I think a lot of entrepreneurs should consider getting checked for ADHD.

我无法解释为什么，但我只是说，“我不擅长做其他人似乎都能做的所有事情。”所以我认为，特别是因为你有企业家受众，我认为很多企业家应该考虑接受多动症检查。

Just go and ChatGPT say, "Ask me a of questions and tell me if you think I might have it." But I was very surprised, and that's been really impactful for me too.

只要去 ChatGPT 说：“问我一些问题，然后告诉我你是否认为我可能拥有它。”但我感到非常惊讶，这对我也产生了很大的影响。

Lenny Rachitsky: Man, this garbage story is very descriptive of my life, and so I'm going to do this.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：伙计，这个垃圾故事非常贴切地描述了我的生活，所以我要这么做。

There's this implication that it's good to know this, right?

这意味着知道这一点很好，对吧？

It feels scary to feel like, "Oh, shit I might get diagnosed with ADHD." Your advice I imagine is it's better to know because you could do stuff about it.

感觉很可怕，“哦，糟糕，我可能会被诊断出患有多动症。”我想你的建议是最好知道，因为你可以采取一些措施。

Andrew Wilkinson: Totally.

安德鲁·威尔金森：完全可以。

I think it's like any medical thing, right?

我认为这就像任何医学上的事情，对吗？

It's like there's an Alzheimer's gene, right?

好像有阿尔茨海默病基因，对吧？

And if you know you have it, there's a lot you can do to slow the disease or prevent maybe getting it or whatever.

如果您知道自己患有这种疾病，您可以采取很多措施来减缓这种疾病或预防感染或其他什么。

It's always better to know.

了解总是更好。

Even if you don't medicate, I think there's a lot of lifestyle interventions, dietary interventions, and just things you can do to make your life easier, even if it's just explaining to your partner, "Hey, I need things to be explained to me this way so that I can be effective in loving you."

即使你不服药，我认为也有很多生活方式干预措施、饮食干预措施，以及你可以做的事情来让你的生活更轻松，即使只是向你的伴侣解释，“嘿，我需要以这种方式向我解释事情，这样我才能有效地爱你。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Beautiful.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：美丽。

Okay.

好的。

Well, Andrew, with that, we've reached a very exciting lightning round.

好吧，安德鲁，至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got five questions for you.

我有五个问题要问你。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: First question, what are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

Lenny Rachitsky：第一个问题，您发现自己最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Andrew Wilkinson: If I could only recommend two, I would recommend The Laws of Human Nature by Robert Greene.

安德鲁·威尔金森：如果我只能推荐两本，我会推荐罗伯特·格林的《人性法则》。

It's basically like a compendium of every single type of personality disorder or psychological effect.

它基本上就像是每种类型的人格障碍或心理影响的概要。

How do people work their minds to make bad decisions?

人们如何动脑筋做出错误的决定？

What is a narcissist?

什么是自恋者？

What is a psychopath?

什么是精神病患者？

All that kind of stuff.

所有这些东西。

And Robert Greene does such a great job of telling all that in a really engaging way by using storytelling.

罗伯特·格林（Robert Greene）通过讲故事，以一种真正引人入胜的方式讲述了这一切，做得非常出色。

So every single chapter has a story about someone with that personality disorder.

所以每一章都有一个关于患有这种人格障碍的人的故事。

So I love that book.

所以我喜欢那本书。

Andrew Wilkinson: The other one that I love is a book by Felix Dennis called How to Get Rich.

安德鲁·威尔金森：我喜欢的另一本是菲利克斯·丹尼斯写的一本名为《如何致富》的书。

It's hilarious because the whole book starts out saying, "I got rich and I regret it, and I wish that I'd become a poet." And instead he went off and he built this huge publishing empire, became a poet in his sixties, and then he died of throat cancer.

这很搞笑，因为整本书一开始就说：“我变得富有，但我很后悔，我希望我能成为一名诗人。”但他却离开了，建立了这个庞大的出版帝国，在六十多岁时成为一名诗人，然后他死于喉癌。

So it's his story, he basically says, "I'll tell you how to build the business even though you probably shouldn't." And I read that when I was in my 20s, and I found it so exciting and inspiring, and then I recently reread it and I was like, "Oh my God, why didn't I listen to this guy?" Everything he said came true.

所以这是他的故事，他基本上说，“我会告诉你如何建立业务，尽管你可能不应该这样做。”我在 20 多岁的时候读过这本书，我发现它是如此令人兴奋和鼓舞人心，然后我最近重读了它，我想，“天哪，我为什么不听这个家伙的话呢？”他所说的一切都成真了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Next question, do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show that you have really enjoyed?

Lenny Rachitsky：下一个问题，你最近有没有最喜欢的电影或电视节目？

Andrew Wilkinson: I love Challengers.

安德鲁·威尔金森：我喜欢挑战者队。

I don't know if you've seen it, but it's amazingly acted, amazing cinematography.

我不知道你是否看过它，但它的表演令人惊叹，摄影也令人惊叹。

It's like this amazing romantic triad tennis movie.

这就像一部令人惊叹的浪漫黑社会网球电影。

Really, really good.

真的，真的很好。

Lenny Rachitsky: Do you have a favorite product you recently discovered that you really love?

Lenny Rachitsky：您最近发现有一款您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？

You already mentioned Limitless.

你已经提到了无限。

Is there anything else?

还有别的吗？

Andrew Wilkinson: I'm one of those people who really believes in the idea of a robot vacuum.

安德鲁·威尔金森：我是真正相信扫地机器人理念的人之一。

I've probably spent $10,000 on different robot vacuums over the years, probably five or six of them.

这些年来我可能花了 10,000 美元购买了不同的扫地机器人，大概有五六个。

And I finally got one that actually works.

我终于得到了一个真正有效的。

It's called the Matic Vacuum, M-A-T-I-C.

它被称为 Matic Vacuum，M-A-T-I-C。

And basically, I think it's like former Google Engineers basically built like a mini Waymo car.

基本上，我认为它就像前谷歌工程师基本上建造了一辆迷你 Waymo 汽车。

So it has machine vision and it will avoid absolutely everything and never get tangled, and it can mop your floors and vacuum.

所以它有机器视觉，它会避开一切，永远不会缠结，它可以拖地和吸尘。

I've been super impressed with it so far.

到目前为止，我对它印象非常深刻。

Lenny Rachitsky: I've got one of these myself.

Lenny Rachitsky：我自己就有一个。

Completely agree.

完全同意。

My wife loves it, which I did not expect.

我的妻子很喜欢它，这是我没想到的。

She's like, "Turn that Matic on." It's very delightful.

她说，“打开 Matic。”非常令人愉快。

It has his little personality and it just does a really good job.

它有他的小个性，而且做得非常好。

And I'm not an investor, and that's awesome.

我不是投资者，这太棒了。

I'm a huge fan.

我是它的超级粉丝。

Okay, next question.

好的，下一个问题。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to find useful in work or in life?

您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，经常回来发现它对工作或生活有用？

Andrew Wilkinson: Yeah.

安德鲁·威尔金森：是的。

My favorite is a quote by Jerzy Gregorek.

我最喜欢的是杰西·格雷戈尔克（Jerzy Gregorek）的一句话。

It's, "Easy choices, hard life.

这就是“简单的选择，艰难的生活”。

Hard choices, easy life." And I often find that anytime that I'm making the easy choice, my life gets hard.

艰难的选择，轻松的生活。”我经常发现，每当我做出简单的选择时，我的生活就会变得艰难。

And when I make the hard choice to shut down the business, fire the person, say bye to a project that I was excited about, it's almost always the right choice and it makes my life a lot easier.

当我做出关闭公司、解雇员工、告别一个令我兴奋的项目的艰难选择时，这几乎总是正确的选择，它让我的生活变得轻松多了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Final question.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：最后一个问题。

Okay, so let me know if this is true.

好的，请告诉我这是否属实。

I found that when you were a teenager, when you're running Macteens, you interviewed Steve Jobs at a conference.

我发现当你十几岁的时候，当你经营麦克廷斯时，你在一次会议上采访了史蒂夫·乔布斯。

Is that true?

这是真的吗？

Andrew Wilkinson: So when I was a teenager, I had a tech news website and I emailed the Apple PR people and I said, "Hey, could I interview Steve Jobs?" And they kind of laughed at me.

安德鲁·威尔金森：当我十几岁的时候，我有一个科技新闻网站，我给苹果公关人员发了电子邮件，我说：“嘿，我可以采访史蒂夫·乔布斯吗？”他们有点嘲笑我。

They're like, "Yeah, there's no way.

他们会说：“是的，没有办法。

You're not going to interview Steve Jobs, but hey, why don't you go to this tour of the Apple Store?" So this is no other Apple Store has existed.

你不会采访史蒂夫·乔布斯，但是嘿，你为什么不去参观一下苹果专卖店呢？”所以这不是其他 Apple Store 零售店。

This is in New York at Macworld back in 2004, no, 2003, something like that.

这是 2004 年，不，是 2003 年，类似的事情发生在纽约的 Macworld 大会上。

And so I was really excited about that.

所以我对此感到非常兴奋。

So I show up to go do this tour and there's 30 other journalists there, and I'm first in line, and this big black SUV pulls up and this man gets out and the man is wearing gray New Balance, little circular John Lennon glasses, the mock turtleneck.

所以我去参加这次旅行，那里还有其他 30 名记者，我排在第一个，这辆大型黑色 SUV 停了下来，这个男人下了车，那个男人穿着灰色的 New Balance，戴着约翰·列侬的圆形小眼镜，穿着仿高领毛衣。

And my brain finally puts it together and I realize it's Steve Jobs.

我的大脑终于把它们拼凑起来，我意识到那是史蒂夫·乔布斯。

Andrew Wilkinson: And he walks directly up to me because I'm first in line and he shakes my hand and he says, "Hi, I'm Steve." And I'm like a quivering mess.

安德鲁·威尔金森：他直接走到我面前，因为我排在第一位，他握着我的手说：“嗨，我是史蒂夫。”而我就像一团颤抖的混乱。

I'm 17 years old.

我今年 17 岁。

He is my hero.

他是我的英雄。

He's my Jesus.

他是我的耶稣。

And so I was just so high on adrenaline that I just started asking him questions.

所以我的肾上腺素太高了，所以我开始问他问题。

As soon as we walked in, I basically just stayed at his side, and I just picked his brain about all sorts of different stuff.

我们一走进去，我基本上就呆在他身边，我只是向他询问各种不同的事情。

So it's not like I got to ask him questions about life.

所以我不必问他有关生活的问题。

I was asking him about the new 17-inch iMac or whatever.

我问他关于新的 17 英寸 iMac 之类的东西。

But it was a pretty cool experience to get to meet him.

但能够见到他真是一次很酷的经历。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

There's such a funny thread recently with guests.

最近和客人有一个很有趣的话题。

Everyone, there's like a Steve Jobs connection for the past couple months of guests.

大家，过去几个月的客人就像史蒂夫·乔布斯一样。

That's an awesome story.

这是一个很棒的故事。

It just shows that it wasn't luck.

这只能说明这不是运气。

You made this happen.

你让这一切发生了。

You got there first in line.

你是第一个到的。

Andrew Wilkinson: The lesson for me was ask big and maybe you'll get something great.

安德鲁·威尔金森：给我的教训是大胆提问，也许你会得到一些很棒的东西。

Ask for amazing, you'll get something great, which I did.

要求惊人的，你会得到一些很棒的东西，我做到了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yes, door in the face technique, I think people call it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，我想人们这么称呼它。

Lenny Rachitsky: Andrew, this was incredible.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：安德鲁，这太不可思议了。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you if they want to reach out?

如果人们想要联系您，可以在哪里找到您？

I know you're buying companies, investing in companies.

我知道你正在购买公司、投资公司。

Just talk about what you're looking for there in case people are like, "Oh, this is me." And then finally, how can listeners be useful to you?

只要谈论你在那里寻找什么，以防人们会说，“哦，这就是我。”最后，听众如何对你有用？

Andrew Wilkinson: Yeah, my business is Tiny, T-I-N-Y.com, and we buy businesses.

安德鲁·威尔金森：是的，我的公司是 Tiny，T-I-N-Y.com，我们收购企业。

Basically, when we sold the business, we hated it.

基本上，当我们出售业务时，我们讨厌它。

We went through this process where we talked to all these douchebags that ran private equity firms that would show up in our office in suits and use a bunch of words we didn't understand.

我们经历了这个过程，我们与所有这些经营私募股权公司的混蛋交谈，他们会穿着西装出现在我们的办公室，并使用一堆我们听不懂的词语。

And we ended up going, "Man, why can't we just sell to somebody who's like us?" And so we basically started Tiny to become the buyer we wish we could have sold to.

最后我们说：“伙计，为什么我们不能把产品卖给像我们这样的人呢？”所以我们开始Tiny基本上是为了成为我们希望能够出售给的买家。

And we're looking for businesses that have some of the qualities I mentioned before.

我们正在寻找具有我之前提到的一些品质的企业。

So really high quality businesses that do something positive in the world and have happy customers, happy employees, and some kind of competitive advantage that will make them continue into the future.

因此，真正高质量的企业在世界上做一些积极的事情，拥有满意的客户、满意的员工，以及某种竞争优势，使他们能够继续走向未来。

So we own AeroPress, Letterboxd, Dribble, which is a design social network, whole bunch of businesses like that.

因此，我们拥有 AeroPress、Letterboxd、Dribble（一个设计社交网络）以及诸如此类的一大堆业务。

So if somebody is thinking about selling their business, definitely get in touch.

因此，如果有人正在考虑出售其业务，请务必联系我们。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

And then how can listeners be useful to you if it's not just that?

如果不仅如此，听众怎么能对你有用呢？

Andrew Wilkinson: I just would say if there's anyone really interesting coming to Victoria, Canada, which is where I live, send me an email and would love to have coffee with you.

安德鲁·威尔金森：我只是想说，如果有谁真正感兴趣来加拿大维多利亚（我住的地方），请给我发电子邮件，并且很乐意与您一起喝咖啡。

The reason I love going on podcasts is because I get to meet so many interesting people, both randomly.

我喜欢上播客的原因是因为我可以随机认识很多有趣的人。

If I'm in a cafe and someone sees me and says hi, I often make a lot of friends that way, or if someone comes to my hometown.

如果我在咖啡馆里，有人看到我并向我打招呼，我通常会通过这种方式结交很多朋友，或者如果有人来到我的家乡。

So yeah, just get in touch.

所以，是的，只要联系一下。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Andrew, thank you so much for being here.

安德鲁，非常感谢你来到这里。

Andrew Wilkinson: Yeah, thanks, dude.

安德鲁·威尔金森：是的，谢谢，伙计。

That was fun.

那很有趣。

Bye, everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

再见，大家：非常感谢您的聆听。

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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。