'Behind the product: Replit | Amjad Masad (co-founder and CEO)'
Amjad Masad: The idea behind Replit is that making software today is very difficult.
Amjad Masad：Replit 背后的想法是，当今制作软件非常困难。
We want to make it easier.
我们想让事情变得更容易。
People view this as a developer in their pocket essentially.
人们基本上将其视为口袋里的开发人员。
We have 34 million users globally.
我们在全球拥有 3400 万用户。
There's people everywhere learning to code on Replit, building startups, building personal software, personal tools.
世界各地都有人在 Replit 上学习编码、创办初创公司、构建个人软件、个人工具。
Lenny Rachitsky: For people building products, say, product managers, founders, what skills do you see will matter more, matter less?
Lenny Rachitsky：对于构建产品的人来说，例如产品经理、创始人，您认为哪些技能更重要，哪些技能更不重要？
Amjad Masad: Typically, you're bottlenecked where your ideas are not fitting in because they need to be made and they need to be made quickly.
Amjad Masad：通常情况下，你会遇到瓶颈，因为你的想法不适合，因为它们需要被实现，而且需要快速实现。
Now, you open up that bottleneck.
现在，你打开了这个瓶颈。
So now actually making things is a lot easier.
所以现在实际上做事情要容易得多。
Actually, you become limited by how fast you can generate ideas.
事实上，你产生想法的速度会受到限制。
Lenny Rachitsky: I think people are unaware of just how far things have gone.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为人们没有意识到事情已经发展到何种程度。
Amjad Masad: I could imagine whatever five years from now, someone running a billion-dollar company with zero employees where it's like the support is handled by AI, the development is handled by AI, and you're just building and creating this thing.
Amjad Masad：我可以想象五年后，有人经营一家价值十亿美元的公司，员工为零，就像支持由人工智能处理，开发由人工智能处理，而你只是在构建和创造这个东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: Man, the future is wild.
Lenny Rachitsky：伙计，未来是疯狂的。
Today, my guest is Amjad Masad.
今天，我的客人是阿姆贾德·马萨德。
Amjad is the co-founder of Replit, an AI-powered software development and deployment platform for building and shipping software.
Amjad 是 Replit 的联合创始人，Replit 是一个用于构建和发布软件的人工智能软件开发和部署平台。
It's one of the fastest-growing developer communities and AI products in the world.
它是世界上增长最快的开发者社区和人工智能产品之一。
There's a lot of talk these days about how AI is changing, how products will be built, how product teams are going to operate, which functions will be more and less valuable over time.
这些天有很多关于人工智能如何改变、产品将如何构建、产品团队将如何运作、随着时间的推移哪些功能会变得越来越有价值和越来越不值钱的讨论。
But I feel like very few people have actually seen what modern AI tools can do and have fully grasped how much you can get done with very little technical skill now and in the future.
但我觉得很少有人真正看到现代人工智能工具可以做什么，并且完全掌握现在和未来用很少的技术技能可以完成多少工作。
And so I'm going to do an experiment with this podcast where I'm going to do a series of behind the product episodes where we go deep on important products that product builders should be aware of and should probably start playing with.
因此，我将在这个播客中进行一个实验，其中我将制作一系列产品背后的剧集，其中我们将深入探讨产品构建者应该意识到并且可能应该开始使用的重要产品。
Lenny Rachitsky: In our conversation, Amjad does a demo of what you can do with Replit today, which is going to blow your mind.
Lenny Rachitsky：在我们的谈话中，Amjad 演示了您今天可以使用 Replit 做什么，这会让您大吃一惊。
And then we spend most of the conversation talking about the implications of this on the future of product development, on the future of product management, and on the future of startups and founders.
然后我们用大部分谈话时间讨论这对产品开发的未来、产品管理的未来以及初创公司和创始人的未来的影响。
It's a very exciting time.
这是一个非常激动人心的时刻。
It's also a very scary and destabilizing time for a lot of people, and my thinking is the more you are aware of what's possible today and where things are going, the better position you'll be in to thrive in this very wild and crazy future that is coming very fast.
对于很多人来说，这也是一个非常可怕和不稳定的时期，我的想法是，你越了解今天可能发生的事情以及事情的发展方向，你就越能在这个即将到来的非常狂野和疯狂的未来中蓬勃发展。
If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。
It's the best way to avoid missing feature episodes, and it helps the podcast tremendously.
这是避免错过专题节目的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。
With that, I bring you Amjad Masad.
接下来，我为您带来阿姆贾德·马萨德。
Amjad, thank you so much for being here.
阿姆贾德，非常感谢你来到这里。
Welcome to the podcast.
欢迎来到播客。
Lenny Rachitsky: I thought it'd be great to start with just having you explain what is Replit?
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为首先让您解释一下 Replit 是什么就很好了？
What's the vision?
愿景是什么？
Where is this going?
这是要去哪里？
What job does it do for people?
它为人们做什么工作？
Amjad Masad: The idea behind Replit is that making software today is very difficult and we want to make it easier.
Amjad Masad：Replit 背后的想法是，如今制作软件非常困难，我们希望让它变得更容易。
One of the reasons for the difficulty is that it is very fragmented, so you would need to download what's called an IDE.
困难的原因之一是它非常分散，因此您需要下载所谓的 IDE。
It's basically a code editor.
它基本上是一个代码编辑器。
You need to download the runtime, basically Python or JavaScript, need to figure out a package manager to configure your kind of open source packages, and once you've done all of that, you need to figure out how to deploy it, how to share it.
你需要下载运行时，基本上是Python或JavaScript，需要找到一个包管理器来配置你的开源包，一旦你完成了所有这些，你需要弄清楚如何部署它，如何共享它。
So it's a very hard process, and that's one of the ways where people get stuck and never learn how to code because it just feels like this cumbersome IT process.
所以这是一个非常艰难的过程，也是人们陷入困境并且永远无法学习如何编码的原因之一，因为这感觉就像是一个繁琐的 IT 过程。
Amjad Masad: And so the vision for Replit has always been is like, okay, making software is fun, is great, more people should do it, but so for more people to do it, it needs to be easier to do, it needs to be in one place, and it needs to be learnable.
Amjad Masad：Replit 的愿景一直是，好吧，制作软件很有趣，很棒，应该有更多的人去做，但是对于更多的人来说，它需要更容易做，它需要在一个地方，并且需要可以学习。
It's easier to learn.
更容易学习。
So that's the product today.
这就是今天的产品。
It is I think one of the more easier IDEs/ environment/deployment environment on the internet, and I think we make it really easy for people to just jump in even without prior experience of coding, especially now with the new AI products that we built.
我认为这是互联网上更容易的 IDE/环境/部署环境之一，而且我认为我们让人们即使没有编码经验也能轻松投入使用，尤其是现在有了我们构建的新人工智能产品。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by WorkOS.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 WorkOS 为您带来。
If you're building a SaaS app, at some point, your customers will start asking for enterprise features like SAML authentication and SCIM provisioning.
如果您正在构建 SaaS 应用程序，那么在某些时候，您的客户将开始要求提供 SAML 身份验证和 SCIM 配置等企业功能。
That's where WorkOS comes in, making it fast and painless to add enterprise features to your app.
这就是 WorkOS 的用武之地，它可以快速、轻松地将企业功能添加到您的应用程序中。
Their APIs are easy to understand so that you can ship quickly and get back to building other features.
他们的 API 易于理解，因此您可以快速交付并继续构建其他功能。
Today, hundreds of companies are already powered by WorkOS, including ones you probably know like Vercel, Webflow, and Loom.
如今，数百家公司已经由 WorkOS 提供支持，其中包括您可能知道的 Vercel、Webflow 和 Loom 等公司。
WorkOS also recently acquired Warrant, the Fine Grained Authorization service.
WorkOS 最近还收购了 Warrant，即细粒度授权服务。
Warrant's product is based on a groundbreaking authorization system called Zanzibar, which was originally designed for Google to power Google Docs and YouTube.
Warrant 的产品基于名为 Zanzibar 的突破性授权系统，该系统最初是为 Google 设计的，旨在为 Google Docs 和 YouTube 提供支持。
This enables fast authorization checks at enormous scale while maintaining a flexible model that can be adapted to even the most complex use cases.
这可以实现大规模的快速授权检查，同时保持灵活的模型，甚至可以适应最复杂的用例。
If you're currently looking to build role-based access control or other enterprise features like single sign-on, SCIM, or user management, you should consider WorkOS.
如果您当前正在寻求构建基于角色的访问控制或其他企业功能（例如单点登录、SCIM 或用户管理），您应该考虑 WorkOS。
It's a drop-in replacement for Auth0 and supports up to 1 million monthly active users for free.
它是 Auth0 的直接替代品，免费支持多达 100 万月活跃用户。
Check it out at workos.com to learn more.
请访问 workos.com 以了解更多信息。
That's workos.com.
那是workos.com。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Persona, the adaptable identity platform that helps businesses fight fraud, meet compliance requirements, and build trust.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Persona 为您带来，Persona 是一个适应性强的身份平台，可帮助企业打击欺诈、满足合规性要求并建立信任。
While you're listening to this right now, how do you know that you're really listening to me, Lenny?
当你现在正在听这个时，你怎么知道你真的在听我说话，莱尼？
These days, it's easier than ever for fraudsters to steal PII, faces, and identities.
如今，欺诈者比以往任何时候都更容易窃取 PII、面孔和身份。
That's where Persona comes in.
这就是角色发挥作用的地方。
Persona helps leading companies like LinkedIn, Etsy, and Twilio securely verify individuals and businesses across the world.
Persona 帮助 LinkedIn、Etsy 和 Twilio 等领先公司安全地验证世界各地的个人和企业。
What sets Persona apart is its configurability.
Persona 的独特之处在于它的可配置性。
Every company has different needs depending on its industry, use cases, risk tolerance, and user demographics.
每家公司根据其行业、用例、风险承受能力和用户人口统计数据都有不同的需求。
That's why Persona offers flexible building blocks that allow you to build tailored collection and verification flows that maximize conversion while minimizing risk.
这就是为什么 Persona 提供灵活的构建模块，使您能够构建定制的收集和验证流程，从而最大限度地提高转化率，同时最大限度地降低风险。
Plus Persona's orchestration tools automate your identity process so that you can fight rapidly shifting fraud and meet new waves of regulation.
Plus Persona 的编排工具可自动化您的身份流程，以便您能够对抗快速变化的欺诈行为并满足新一波的监管要求。
Whether you're a startup or an enterprise business, Persona has a plan for you.
无论您是初创公司还是大型企业，Persona 都有适合您的计划。
Learn more at withpersona.com/lenny.
如需了解更多信息，请访问 withpersona.com/lenny。
Again, that's withpersona.com/lenny.
同样，这是 withpersona.com/lenny。
What's the scale of Replit at this point?
目前 Replit 的规模有多大？
How large has this gotten?
这已经有多大了？
How many people are using it?
有多少人在使用它？
Amjad Masad: We have 34 million users globally.
Amjad Masad：我们在全球拥有 3400 万用户。
We have a large global presence.
我们在全球拥有广泛的影响力。
There's people everywhere learning to code on Replit, building startups, building personal software, personal tools or internal tools of the companies.
世界各地都有人在 Replit 上学习编码、创建初创公司、构建个人软件、个人工具或公司内部工具。
More recently, we've been expanding to companies.
最近，我们已经扩展到公司。
We released our kind of B2B package in July, and that's been growing really fast.
我们在 7 月份发布了 B2B 套餐，并且增长非常快。
It's been really fun to see people bring Replit to work as well.
看到人们也将 Replit 带到工作中真的很有趣。
Lenny Rachitsky: Damn, I knew it was popular.
Lenny Rachitsky：该死，我知道它很受欢迎。
I didn't realize it was that large actually.
我没有意识到它实际上有这么大。
As I was preparing for this podcast episode, there's this tweet that went viral where this guy, Jevin, who I actually know.
当我准备这个播客节目时，一条推文在网上疯传，这个人叫杰文，我实际上认识他。
I know this guy from Canada, he's awesome, tweeted about how his 11-year-old girl built an app in Replit.
我认识这个来自加拿大的家伙，他很棒，在推特上讲述了他 11 岁的女儿如何在 Replit 中构建应用程序。
She just had an idea and she built it.
她只是有一个想法，然后就实现了它。
And the best part of it is someone in the...
其中最好的部分是有人在......
replied to him and they're like, "You have to launch an app.
回复他，他们说：“你必须启动一个应用程序。
You have to host it somewhere.
你必须把它托管在某个地方。
You have to build a database.
你必须建立一个数据库。
You have to deploy it.
你必须部署它。
There's no way to do that." And he's like, "No, that's exactly what Replit did."
没有办法做到这一点。”他说：“不，这正是雷普利特所做的。”
Amjad Masad: Yeah, that's what we do.
Amjad Masad：是的，这就是我们所做的。
Everything that commenter was talking about, and he's right.
评论者所说的一切都是对的。
The surprising thing about an 11-year-old building an app is not so much even the coding, it is like all the nonsense around it, and so we just abstract all that away.
对于一个 11 岁的孩子构建应用程序来说，令人惊讶的事情并不在于编码，而在于它周围的所有废话，所以我们只是将所有这些抽象出来。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that and I struggled with that myself when I was an engineer way back in the day.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这一点，当我还是一名工程师时，我自己也曾为此苦苦挣扎。
Amjad Masad: Oh, you were an engineer.
Amjad Masad：哦，你是一名工程师。
I didn't know that.
我不知道。
Lenny Rachitsky: I was.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我是。
I was an engineer for 10 years.
我当了 10 年工程师。
I was an engineering manager, and then I jumped ship into product.
我是一名工程经理，然后我跳槽到产品领域。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm happy I did but I do miss that.
Lenny Rachitsky：我很高兴我做到了，但我确实想念这一点。
I was not an amazing engineer.
我不是一个了不起的工程师。
I was a good enough startup engineer, so this is the kind of stuff that I would've left to use.
我是一名足够优秀的启动工程师，所以这是我会留下来使用的东西。
So we're going to jump into a demo of what this actually looks like.
因此，我们将开始演示它的实际情况。
I thought maybe actually before we get into it, there's other tools that people are aware of that help you build stuff.
我想也许在我们开始讨论之前，人们已经知道还有其他工具可以帮助您构建东西。
And so to put a finer point on what this does and how it's different from other things, you may have heard of, say, Cursor, it comes up a lot these days, just talk about a little bit about the competitive landscape of who else is out there that helps you build product.
因此，为了更详细地说明它的作用以及它与其他事物的不同之处，您可能听说过 Cursor，这些天它出现了很多，只需谈谈其他人可以帮助您构建产品的竞争格局。
Amjad Masad: Again, we go back to this idea of end-to-end platform for making software.
Amjad Masad：我们再次回到创建软件的端到端平台的想法。
So that's from writing code all the way to deploying it, and monetizing it and all of that.
这就是从编写代码一直到部署代码，然后将其货币化等等。
Now, every step in the process of the software development lifecycle, there are a lot of different tools.
现在，软件开发生命周期过程中的每一步都有很多不同的工具。
So Cursor is a fork of VS Code that's made that has really awesome AI tools, but that's an editor.
Cursor 是 VS Code 的一个分支，它具有非常出色的 AI 工具，但它只是一个编辑器。
You still need runtime, you still need a deployment environment.
你仍然需要运行时，你仍然需要部署环境。
Actually, quite a few users use Cursor in tandem with Replit, because Replit just simplifies the runtime and deployment environment.
实际上，相当多的用户将 Cursor 与 Replit 结合使用，因为 Replit 只是简化了运行时和部署环境。
Amjad Masad: And so you have products, AI products, different places in the software development lifecycle, but really what differentiates Replit is that we do everything, but also that makes it harder to adopt for certain people.
Amjad Masad：所以你有产品、人工智能产品、软件开发生命周期中的不同位置，但真正使 Replit 与众不同的是，我们做一切事情，但这也让某些人更难采用。
If you're at a big company, it's very easy to bring a new editor and start coding with it.
如果您在一家大公司，那么很容易带一个新的编辑器并开始用它编码。
It's quite hard to bring something that's quite opinionated about everything from how the code runs to how the code deploys, but that's the trade-off we're willing to make is like yeah, we're not going to get into the enterprise main software development pipeline, but we want to empower everyone to be able to build software, and that means product managers, designers.
很难带来从代码如何运行到代码如何部署等各个方面都非常固执己见的东西，但这就是我们愿意做出的权衡，就像是的，我们不会进入企业主要的软件开发管道，但我们希望让每个人都能够构建软件，这意味着产品经理、设计师。
We have operations people, sales ops, HR ops.
我们有运营人员、销售人员、人力资源人员。
We have lawyers using Replit, and so it is democratizing the act of software engineering.
我们有律师使用 Replit，因此它正在使软件工程行为民主化。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing, and that's why you're here.
Lenny Rachitsky：太棒了，这就是你来这里的原因。
Let's do a demo.
让我们做一个演示。
While you're pulling it up, you're going to share your screen and show us what this product can do.
当您拉起它时，您将共享您的屏幕并向我们展示该产品的功能。
And the reason I am excited about doing a demo, and this is an experiment, kind of a new type of podcast episode I'm doing where we're diving into specific products and what they can do, I feel like there's so much talk about AI and what it's doing and people keep reading about, oh, AI can do this and AI can do that, and I feel like not many people actually see this stuff in action, especially the most cutting edge stuff.
我对做演示感到兴奋的原因是，这是一个实验，是我正在做的一种新型播客节目，我们正在深入研究特定产品及其功能，我觉得有太多关于人工智能及其正在做什么的讨论，人们不断阅读，哦，人工智能可以做到这一点，人工智能可以做到这一点，我觉得没有多少人真正看到这些东西的实际应用，尤其是最前沿的东西。
I think people are unaware of just how far things have gone and how much is actually possible, especially when someone that knows what they're doing is using the product.
我认为人们不知道事情已经走了多远，以及实际上有多少可能，尤其是当有人知道自己在做什么并正在使用该产品时。
So I'm excited to show people what is actually possible and especially because this is going to impact the future of product management and product teams.
因此，我很高兴向人们展示实际上是可能的，特别是因为这将影响产品管理和产品团队的未来。
So I'll turn that over to you.
所以我会把它交给你。
Give us a demo.
给我们一个演示。
Amjad Masad: Awesome.
阿姆贾德·马萨德：太棒了。
So this is Replit's homepage.
这是 Replit 的主页。
You can create what's called a Repl, which is a project.
您可以创建所谓的 Repl，它是一个项目。
We have all sorts of languages.
我们有各种各样的语言。
You can pick from really in the hundreds, but most recently, and this is how Replit became a thousand times easier, is you can just describe what you want to make.
你可以从数百种中进行选择，但最近，这就是 Replit 变得简单一千倍的原因，你可以只描述你想要制作的东西。
So you go on this home page, we have this text box, and you can write something like make me a cool app or what have you, but a more descriptive prompt is better.
所以你进入这个主页，我们有这个文本框，你可以写一些东西，比如让我成为一个很酷的应用程序或你有什么，但更具描述性的提示更好。
Amjad Masad: And so I asked RPM at Replit, Aman Mathur who's a fan of the show to tell me what PMs like to build.
Amjad Masad：所以我请 Replit 的 RPM Aman Mathur（他是该节目的粉丝）告诉我 PM 喜欢构建什么。
And so he came up with a prompt.
所以他想出了一个提示。
He kind of really crafted a great prompt.
他确实精心设计了一个很棒的提示。
So I'm going to put it here.
所以我要把它放在这里。
And basically, what we're asking for is we want to build a web application.
基本上，我们要求的是构建一个 Web 应用程序。
You can say what stack you want to use or you can leave it up to the AI to decide.
你可以说出你想使用什么堆栈，也可以让人工智能来决定。
Here we're saying build it in Node.js for product managers to track feature requests on a public dashboard.
在这里，我们说的是在 Node.js 中构建它，以便产品经理在公共仪表板上跟踪功能请求。
So say I have a product, I'm growing, I have a community, I want that community to engage with building the product.
假设我有一个产品，我正在成长，我有一个社区，我希望该社区参与构建该产品。
I want them to submit feature requests, vote on them.
我希望他们提交功能请求，并对它们进行投票。
I want to be able to manage that.
我希望能够做到这一点。
So we're talking here about the features of voting system, feature requests.
所以我们在这里讨论投票系统的功能、功能请求。
Lenny Rachitsky: Read a few of them just for folks that aren't watching on YouTube to give them, send some of the stuff in this prompt.
Lenny Rachitsky：请阅读其中的一些内容，以便那些不在 YouTube 上观看的人向他们提供，并在此提示中发送一些内容。
Amjad Masad: So a feature requests submission, so allowing the users to add features.
Amjad Masad：因此功能需要提交，因此允许用户添加功能。
A voting system, so allowing users for these features, feature requests and status tracking, being able to, it's like a kind of advance style board with columns like planned and progress, so that way the admin can kind of share with the community what they're building.
一个投票系统，允许用户使用这些功能、功能请求和状态跟踪，能够，它就像一种带有计划和进度等栏的高级风格板，这样管理员就可以与社区分享他们正在构建的内容。
And we want it to be user-friendly design, so make it modern and all of that nice kind of prompty things.
我们希望它是用户友好的设计，所以让它变得现代和所有那些美好的、迅速的事情。
And then admin controls for product manager.
然后是产品经理的管理控制。
So as a product manager, I want to be able to really manage this community.
所以作为一个产品经理，我希望能够真正管理好这个社区。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that it builds internal tools too, not just the front end.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢它还构建内部工具，而不仅仅是前端。
Amjad Masad: Yes.
阿姆贾德·马萨德：是的。
Exactly.
确切地。
Exactly.
确切地。
All right, so we're going to start building.
好的，我们要开始构建了。
Since this is a pretty big, big prompt, the initial coding might take a while.
由于这是一个非常大的提示，因此初始编码可能需要一段时间。
There's different styles of using Replit agents.
Replit 代理的使用方式有多种。
I often go with minimalist prompts.
我经常遵循极简主义的提示。
That's also how I code as well.
这也是我编码的方式。
I have a vague idea for what I want to build and iterate from there.
我对自己想要构建和迭代的内容有一个模糊的想法。
Other people, product managers like to write PRDs and more descriptive things, and you can do either of those things.
其他人、产品经理喜欢编写 PRD 和更具描述性的内容，而您可以做其中任何一件事。
The AI now responded and then said, I'll build all of that for you.
人工智能现在做出了回应，然后说，我将为你构建所有这些。
I'm going to build up the initial prototype and you can tell me how it feels, and then we can make it better from there.
我将构建最初的原型，你可以告诉我感觉如何，然后我们可以从那里让它变得更好。
The AI is also suggesting, adding comment threads, implementing email notifications, and so I can select those and it's being creative, it's telling me what else I could build, but for now, I'm just going to go with a prototype and then we can assess from there.
人工智能还建议，添加评论线程，实施电子邮件通知，所以我可以选择这些，它很有创意，它告诉我我还可以构建什么，但现在，我只想使用一个原型，然后我们可以从那里进行评估。
Amjad Masad: So as you see, as the prototype is starting, you can see this progress pane where we can watch the AI doing its thing here.
Amjad Masad：正如您所看到的，随着原型的启动，您可以看到这个进度窗格，我们可以在其中观看人工智能在这里做的事情。
It's created a Postgres database.
它创建了一个 Postgres 数据库。
Obviously, when we're building a full-stack application, you need to be able to save things.
显然，当我们构建全栈应用程序时，您需要能够保存东西。
This is one of the cool things about Replit.
这是 Replit 最酷的事情之一。
We have all these services, storage, database.
我们拥有所有这些服务、存储、数据库。
So now it's coding, it's building the database schema.
现在正在编码，正在构建数据库模式。
Now, it's building the home page, and it's actually quite fun and edifying to watch it build this, because you can really start to learn how to structure web apps.
现在，它正在构建主页，观看它构建主页实际上非常有趣且有启发性，因为您可以真正开始学习如何构建 Web 应用程序。
And if it runs into a problem and as things get complicated, it might run into a problem and you want to be able to help debug and things like that, it's good to be able to have an idea of what's going on, but it's not necessary.
如果遇到问题并且随着事情变得复杂，它可能会遇到问题并且您希望能够帮助调试和类似的事情，能够了解正在发生的事情是很好的，但这不是必要的。
I think a lot of people just don't care about the code and are still able to build things, but we want to make the process transparent.
我认为很多人只是不关心代码并且仍然能够构建东西，但我们希望使过程透明。
We want to show people exactly what the agent is doing.
我们希望向人们展示代理正在做什么。
Lenny Rachitsky: You're basically sitting there behind an engineer on a computer and just watching them code is what the experience feels like.
Lenny Rachitsky：基本上，你坐在工程师后面的电脑上，看着他们编写代码，这就是体验的感觉。
Amjad Masad: Yeah, and actually, the way we built it is it's a multiplayer system.
Amjad Masad：是的，实际上，我们构建它的方式是它是一个多人游戏系统。
So Replit has real time, what we call multiplier coding, and we reused the multiplayer system to build the agent.
因此，Replit 具有实时性，即我们所说的乘数编码，并且我们重用了多人游戏系统来构建代理。
So the agent in the code is structured as another user of the platform.
因此，代码中的代理被构造为平台的另一个用户。
So basically, we're both coding together.
所以基本上，我们都在一起编码。
So I can go into the files here and that's the thing that makes Replit really cool.
所以我可以在这里查看这些文件，这就是 Replit 真正酷的地方。
I think people are familiar with some of the more chat interfaces like v0 and others where it's purely chat, but this is a full IDE where you can go and look at the files and edit them yourself or ask the AI for an explanation.
我认为人们熟悉一些更多的聊天界面，例如 v0 和其他纯粹聊天的界面，但这是一个完整的 IDE，您可以在其中查看文件并自行编辑它们或向 AI 询问解释。
Lenny Rachitsky: What's the limitation of what this can do today?
Lenny Rachitsky：目前它的局限性是什么？
What can't you do?
你不能做什么？
Say you're like, you have zero coding experience, what sorts of products can you not yet build with something like this that might be possible in the future?
假设您的编码经验为零，您还不能使用未来可能实现的此类产品来构建哪些类型的产品？
How far does this take you now?
现在你能走多远？
Amjad Masad: You can build MVPs.
Amjad Masad：你可以打造 MVP。
I think you can also start to get some initial users.
我认为你也可以开始获得一些初始用户。
I think when you start iterating on the product like large iterations, you might run into problems.
我认为当你开始像大迭代那样迭代产品时，你可能会遇到问题。
For example, it's not very good at database migrations, and so we're trying to fix that.
例如，它不太擅长数据库迁移，因此我们正在尝试解决这个问题。
So when you're iterating on the product, a lot of the times, you're actually changing the structure of the app and that requires database migrations.
因此，当您迭代产品时，很多时候，您实际上是在更改应用程序的结构，这需要数据库迁移。
And so now it might change the database in a way that creates an error that's unrecoverable.
因此，现在它可能会以某种方式更改数据库，从而产生不可恢复的错误。
And at that point, you might get stuck, especially if you don't know how to code.
到那时，您可能会陷入困境，特别是如果您不知道如何编码。
Amjad Masad: Some people will figure it out by going to ChatGPT and Claude and asking questions and I actually am really inspired about how persistent some of our users are, which is really amazing.
Amjad Masad：有些人会通过访问 ChatGPT 和 Claude 并提出问题来弄清楚这一点，实际上我对我们的一些用户的坚持程度感到非常鼓舞，这真的很神奇。
But I think you'll get an MVP pass, the MVP where it's a product that's working and you need to change and iterate on it.
但我认为你会获得 MVP 通行证，MVP 是指产品正在运行，你需要对其进行更改和迭代。
It's still a struggle now, but I expect over the next few months, we'll continue.
现在仍然是一场斗争，但我预计在接下来的几个月里，我们将继续下去。
It's if you think about it's like we're building as you were building, so we're building out the agent so that it can continue getting better as our users are also building their applications.
如果您考虑一下，就像我们正在构建您正在构建的那样，因此我们正在构建代理，以便随着我们的用户也在构建他们的应用程序，它可以继续变得更好。
Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。
So what I'm hearing is it's really good at building the first version and helping you get to something that you can even have people use.
所以我听到的是，它非常擅长构建第一个版本并帮助您获得甚至可以让人们使用的东西。
It's not amazing yet evolving from there, using AI to help you make the product better and better and better and iterate.
从那里开始发展，使用人工智能帮助你让产品变得越来越好并迭代，这并不令人惊奇。
Lenny Rachitsky: But you can get in there if you know how to code and take it from there, right?
Lenny Rachitsky：但是如果你知道如何编码并从那里获取它，你就可以进入那里，对吗？
Amjad Masad: Yes or you can hire someone.
Amjad Masad：是的，或者你可以雇一个人。
We have a feature on the site called Bounties where you can hire human coders to kind of help you finish.
我们的网站上有一个名为“赏金”的功能，您可以在其中雇用人类编码员来帮助您完成任务。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's going to be our job for humans.
Lenny Rachitsky：这将是我们人类的工作。
That'll remain for a while.
这会保留一段时间。
Amjad Masad: You know what we want to do?
Amjad Masad：你知道我们想做什么吗？
We want to get to a point where the agent can go grab a human when it runs into a problem.
我们希望达到这样的程度：当智能体遇到问题时，它可以去抓住一个人。
I think that would be sick.
我想那会生病的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, my God.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，天哪。
It's like everything's reversed.
好像一切都颠倒过来了。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
Oh, I think it might be done.
哦，我想这可能会完成。
Check that out.
检查一下。
Amjad Masad: Yeah.
阿姆贾德·马萨德：是的。
So now the agent is asking us, is the application running and showing the homepage?
现在代理询问我们，应用程序是否正在运行并显示主页？
Amjad Masad: Yeah, almost asking us to do a QA.
Amjad Masad：是的，几乎要求我们进行质量检查。
I'll just say yes.
我就说是的。
So it found an error.
于是就发现了一个错误。
So there's an error here and it's like there's a dumb warning, "I'm going to fix it." So in the meantime, as it's fixing it, so it can be proactive, right?
所以这里有一个错误，就像有一个愚蠢的警告，“我要修复它。”因此，与此同时，当它正在修复它时，它就可以积极主动，对吗？
Because it looks at all the errors and things like that, but in the meantime, we can use it.
因为它会查看所有错误和类似的事情，但与此同时，我们可以使用它。
I just created an account.
我刚刚创建了一个帐户。
It's coding.
这是编码。
Amjad Masad: Let's see how it restart.
Amjad Masad：让我们看看它如何重新启动。
Okay, we'll wait for it.
好的，我们会等待。
Lenny Rachitsky: How long would you say it would take an engineer to build this?
Lenny Rachitsky：你认为工程师需要多长时间才能建造这个？
A typical engineer?
典型的工程师？
Amjad Masad: A few days, I would say to a week.
Amjad Masad：几天，我想说一周。
I mean, if you're really good, it might be hours but it probably would take me a few days.
我的意思是，如果你真的很优秀，可能需要几个小时，但我可能需要几天。
I would say I'm like decent engineer, it'll take you a few days.
我想说我就像一个体面的工程师，这需要你几天的时间。
Lenny Rachitsky: And it took how much?
Lenny Rachitsky：花了多少钱？
5 to 10 minutes.
5到10分钟。
Amjad Masad: Yeah, and it probably cost us something in the sense.
Amjad Masad：是的，从某种意义上说，这可能让我们付出了一些代价。
Amjad Masad: In terms of compute, yeah.
Amjad Masad：在计算方面，是的。
Probably, I would estimate it like 15 cents or something like that.
我估计大概是 15 美分之类的。
Amjad Masad: Here it is.
阿姆贾德·马萨德：就是这里。
And the agent was like, "Okay, this is looking good, completed it if you want to deploy it." But I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to test it first."
代理说：“好吧，这看起来不错，如果你想部署它，就完成它。”但我想，“好吧，我要先测试一下。”
Lenny Rachitsky: And so currently, it's living just locally on your local host.
Lenny Rachitsky：目前，它仅位于本地主机上。
Amjad Masad: Yeah.
阿姆贾德·马萨德：是的。
It's not local host, it's on a Replit but yes, it's the equivalent of local host.
它不是本地主机，它位于 Replit 上，但是，它相当于本地主机。
Because it's really easy, I can even invite you to this session.
因为这真的很简单，我什至可以邀请你参加这个会议。
You can be here with me and so it's all online.
你可以和我在一起，所以一切都是在线的。
Amjad Masad: So let's submit a feature.
Amjad Masad：那么让我们提交一个功能。
So make the product prettier.
所以让产品变得更漂亮。
That's what a typical user might say.
这就是典型用户可能会说的。
So we have this here, you can upvote it.
所以我们这里有这个，你可以投票。
I guess I can't upvote it because I'm the user that created it, but created another user.
我想我不能投票，因为我是创建它的用户，但创建了另一个用户。
You can upvote it.
你可以投票赞成。
But now we need to be able to move things around as the admin, so I don't know how to log into the admin panel.
但现在我们需要能够以管理员身份移动事物，所以我不知道如何登录管理面板。
So I'm going to ask the agent, how do I log into the admin panel?
所以我想问一下代理，我如何登录管理面板？
So it might've already built the feature, and it's not exposed in the right way.
因此它可能已经构建了该功能，但没有以正确的方式公开。
It'll be able to
它将能够
Lenny Rachitsky: What I love about just watching you interact with this thing, and just real quick throughout, it feels like an engineer that is behind the scenes building this thing like on Slack and you're just talking to them.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢看着你与这个东西互动，而且整个过程非常快，感觉就像一个工程师在幕后构建这个东西，就像在 Slack 上一样，而你只是在与他们交谈。
They built this thing, they're like, "Check this out, I'm done." And you're like, "Oh, okay, about how do I log into this admin panel?" And they're like, "Okay, here we go."
他们建造了这个东西，他们就像，“看看这个，我完成了。”你会想，“哦，好吧，我该如何登录这个管理面板？”他们就像，“好吧，我们开始吧。”
Amjad Masad: Yeah.
阿姆贾德·马萨德：是的。
So it says, "Would you like me to help you register account?" So it's creating an account, an admin account for me.
所以它说：“你想让我帮你注册帐户吗？”所以它正在为我创建一个帐户，一个管理员帐户。
So it's not only builds things, it also maintains things.
因此，它不仅构建事物，还维护事物。
In this case, it's actually doing SQL queries.
在本例中，它实际上是在执行 SQL 查询。
It's not writing code to create an admin account for us.
它不是编写代码来为我们创建管理员帐户。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's insane.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太疯狂了。
I want to talk about the implications of this on product development and product management and founders, but what we just witnessed is somebody, I know you do have technical abilities, but someone that didn't have to have any technical skill, build a real product that people can use in five minutes that looks good and works, and you could keep making it better by talking to this agent.
我想谈谈这对产品开发、产品管理和创始人的影响，但我们刚刚目睹的是有人，我知道你确实有技术能力，但有人不需要有任何技术能力，建立了一个真正的产品，人们可以在五分钟内使用，看起来不错并且有效，你可以通过与这个代理交谈来不断改进它。
Amjad Masad: I'll tell you from our experience what we're seeing, there's so many products that are empowering developers.
Amjad Masad：我会根据我们的经验告诉您我们所看到的，有很多产品正在为开发人员提供支持。
It's a very easy calculation to say We're going to make engineers 20% better and we're going to sell it to companies and we're going to take 10% of that value, right?
这是一个非常简单的计算，我们将让工程师的能力提高 20%，然后我们将其出售给公司，然后我们将获得该价值的 10%，对吗？
That's why there's so many startups now that are just trying to make engineers a little better.
这就是为什么现在有这么多初创公司只是想让工程师变得更好一点。
Our calculation is like, well, what if you made everyone developer?
我们的计算是，好吧，如果你让每个人都成为开发人员怎么办？
What does that look like?
那看起来像什么？
And so when we released agent and really made programming a lot easier, what we're seeing is that people, exactly like you said, people view this as a developer in their pocket essentially.
因此，当我们发布代理并真正使编程变得更加容易时，我们看到的是，正如您所说，人们本质上将其视为口袋里的开发人员。
What we're hearing from customers is that I'm doing things I would otherwise have to go hire a developer, but also because the activation energy is lower than going to hire developer, whether Upwork or other places, I'm building a lot more ideas that otherwise I wouldn't have built.
我们从客户那里听到的是，我正在做一些我本来必须去雇用开发人员的事情，而且因为激活能量比雇用开发人员要低，无论是在 Upwork 还是其他地方，我正在构建更多的想法，否则我不会构建。
Amjad Masad: I think it was it called the javelin's paradox or something like that, which is when the cost of things go down, the total consumption of it goes up, which I'm not sure why they call it a paradox, but the cost of electricity goes down, maybe you would expect that the total spend goes down, but actually total spend goes up because people consume more of it.
阿姆贾德·马萨德：我认为这被称为标枪悖论或类似的东西，即当物品成本下降时，总消耗量就会上升，我不确定为什么他们称之为悖论，但电力成本下降了，也许你会期望总支出下降，但实际上总支出上升，因为人们消耗了更多电力。
And so I think that's going to be the case of software.
所以我认为软件也是如此。
As the costs go down, people will just make a lot more software to improve their lives and to improve their work and start more startups and all of that.
随着成本的下降，人们只会制作更多的软件来改善他们的生活，改善他们的工作，并创办更多的初创公司等等。
Lenny Rachitsky: So to follow that thread, what are you seeing inside of startups or even big companies in terms of how folks are already using this knowing this is the worst it will be and it will only become smarter and better these days?
Lenny Rachitsky：那么，按照这个思路，你在初创公司甚至大公司内部看到了什么，人们已经在如何使用它，知道这将是最糟糕的情况，而且它只会变得更聪明、更好？
How are people actually using this that are say product managers or just non-technical people within startups or bigger companies?
人们（例如产品经理或初创公司或大公司中的非技术人员）实际上如何使用它？
Amjad Masad: On the SMB side of things, a lot of people are building kind of back office tools.
Amjad Masad：在中小企业方面，很多人正在构建某种后台工具。
So we have real estate agents that have a lot of data, have a lot of things they want to manage in their business that building a lot of these tools, that they otherwise would have to buy, but typically when you buy, it's actually not exactly what you need.
因此，我们的房地产经纪人拥有大量数据，他们想要在业务中管理很多东西，因此构建了很多这些工具，否则他们就必须购买这些工具，但通常当你购买时，它实际上并不完全是你所需要的。
And that's kind of the problem with SaaS, like one size fits all.
这就是 SaaS 的问题，一刀切。
And so a lot of people are seeing it as sort of a SaaS replacement for in-house tools and things like that.
因此，很多人将其视为内部工具之类的 SaaS 替代品。
And then when you go to the bigger companies, it's anywhere from prototyping to actually production apps to tools as well.
然后，当你去更大的公司时，它涉及从原型设计到实际生产应用程序再到工具的任何地方。
So we've seen product managers build, like I said, like a v1 of an app and actually go out and test it with users.
正如我所说，我们已经看到产品经理构建了一个应用程序的 v1 版，并实际与用户一起测试它。
I can't name the company, but there's a public company that have used Replit to test a v1 of an app.
我无法说出该公司的名称，但有一家上市公司已经使用 Replit 来测试应用程序的 v1。
Amjad Masad: And obviously after that sort of works, they take it to the engineers and they're like, "Okay, we built this thing.
Amjad Masad：显然，在完成此类工作之后，他们将其交给工程师，他们会说：“好吧，我们建造了这个东西。
We think it's a great thing.
我们认为这是一件很棒的事情。
We test it with some users.
我们对一些用户进行了测试。
Let's go actually put it on the roadmap and build it into the actual product." So you are instead of unblocking product managers from having to need engineers for everything that they want to build so they can really build the v0 or v1 of the product.
让我们实际将其纳入路线图并将其构建到实际产品中。”因此，产品经理不必需要工程师来完成他们想要构建的所有内容，这样他们就可以真正构建产品的 v0 或 v1。
Amjad Masad: And that's super empowering for them.
Amjad Masad：这对他们来说是超级强大的力量。
We saw it also with marketing departments like SpotHero has a head of marketing that actually can code decently well but use Replit to build these apps, and they built a competitive analysis application that looks at a competitor's pricing and makes sure that they're benchmarked correctly.
我们在像 SpotHero 这样的营销部门也看到了这一点，他们的营销主管实际上可以很好地编写代码，但使用 Replit 来构建这些应用程序，他们构建了一个竞争分析应用程序，用于查看竞争对手的定价并确保它们的基准测试正确。
And so it's a full stack app use database and everything and it runs on a continuous fashion.
因此，它是一个使用数据库和所有内容的全栈应用程序，并且以连续的方式运行。
And we see sales engineers use Replit to spin up prototypes really quickly.
我们看到销售工程师使用 Replit 非常快速地启动原型。
So actually someone at X, formerly Twitter is on the partner engineering side of things, and he uses Replit agent to spin up applications and prototypes for customers to see how they can use the X API.
实际上，X 的某个人（前 Twitter）负责合作伙伴工程方面的工作，他使用 Replit 代理来启动应用程序和原型，以便客户了解如何使用 X API。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love this.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
I love these examples.
我喜欢这些例子。
By the way, the demo, is there anything else you want to share about the demo before we close that out?
顺便问一下，在我们结束演示之前，您还有什么想分享的吗？
Amjad Masad: So it created an admin account.
Amjad Masad：所以它创建了一个管理员帐户。
We can ask it with the username, password and kind of go into it and manage it but basically that's it.
我们可以询问它的用户名、密码，然后进入并管理它，但基本上就是这样。
The app's complete in terms of what we ask for.
该应用程序已完全满足我们的要求。
We can send it out.
我们可以寄出去。
I can give you a URL.
我可以给你一个网址。
Let's actually just deploy it really quickly to show people how you can deploy.
实际上，让我们快速部署它，向人们展示如何部署。
Lenny Rachitsky: Maybe the show notes, we'll link to the app, you could check it out.
Lenny Rachitsky：也许是演出笔记，我们会链接到该应用程序，你可以查看一下。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, cool.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，酷。
That's amazing.
太棒了。
So this is deploying it onto some cloud provider.
所以这是将其部署到某个云提供商上。
I don't know what you use, but...
我不知道你用什么，但是...
Amjad Masad: We use Google Cloud.
Amjad Masad：我们使用 Google Cloud。
So we abstract all of that away from you, but we use Google Cloud behind the scenes.
因此，我们将所有这些都从您手中抽象出来，但我们在幕后使用 Google Cloud。
Lenny Rachitsky: Imagine a place where you can find all your potential customers and get your message in front of them in a cost-efficient way.
Lenny Rachitsky：想象一个地方，您可以找到所有潜在客户，并以经济高效的方式向他们传达您的信息。
If you're a B2B business, that place exists, and it's called LinkedIn.
如果您从事 B2B 业务，那么这个地方就存在，它的名字叫 LinkedIn。
LinkedIn Ads allows you to build the right relationships, drive results, and reach your customers in a respectful environment.
LinkedIn 广告可让您建立正确的关系、推动成果并在相互尊重的环境中接触您的客户。
Two of my portfolio companies, Webflow and Census, are LinkedIn success stories.
我的投资组合中的两家公司 Webflow 和 Census 都是 LinkedIn 的成功案例。
Census had a 10x increase in pipeline with a LinkedIn startup team.
Census 与 LinkedIn 初创团队合作的渠道增加了 10 倍。
For Webflow, after ramping up on LinkedIn in Q4, they had the highest marketing source revenue quarter to date.
对于 Webflow 来说，在第四季度在 LinkedIn 上取得进展后，他们拥有了迄今为止季度最高的营销来源收入。
Lenny Rachitsky: With LinkedIn Ads, you'll have direct access to and can build relationships with decision makers including 950 million members, 180 million senior execs and over 10 million C-level executives.
Lenny Rachitsky：通过 LinkedIn Ads，您将可以直接接触决策者并与其建立关系，其中包括 9.5 亿会员、1.8 亿高级管理人员和超过 1000 万 C 级管理人员。
You'll be able to drive results with targeting and measurement tools built specifically for B2B.
您将能够利用专为 B2B 构建的定位和衡量工具来推动结果。
In tech, LinkedIn generated 2 to 5x higher return on ad spend than any other social media platforms.
在科技领域，LinkedIn 的广告支出回报率比任何其他社交媒体平台高出 2 到 5 倍。
Audiences on LinkedIn have two times the buying power of the average web audience, and you'll work with a partner who respects the B2B world you operate in.
LinkedIn 上的受众的购买力是普通网络受众的两倍，而且您将与尊重您所在 B2B 世界的合作伙伴合作。
Make B2B marketing everything it can be and get $100 credit on your next campaign.
尽一切可能进行 B2B 营销，并在您的下一次营销活动中获得 100 美元的积分。
Just go to linkedin.com/podlenny to claim your credit.
只需访问 linkedin.com/podlenny 即可领取您的积分。
That linkedin.com/podlenny.
那个 linkedin.com/podlenny。
Terms and conditions apply.
条款和条件适用。
Let's go down this thread actually while this is happening, just like what allows for this to be possible technology wise?
让我们在这种情况发生时实际沿着这条线索走下去，就像是什么让这在技术上成为可能？
What is the stack?
什么是堆栈？
Whatever you can share that enables this to exist.
无论你能分享什么，都可以让这个存在。
Amjad Masad: Yeah, for sure.
阿姆贾德·马萨德：是的，当然。
First of all, it's all the abstractions that we built.
首先，这是我们构建的所有抽象。
So the way a Replit works is the very bottom layer.
所以 Replit 的工作方式是最底层的。
It's our runtime.
这是我们的运行时间。
So this is the operating system, this is the package manager, this is the language runtimes.
这就是操作系统，这是包管理器，这是语言运行时。
We built a system that is able to install packages in any language, including native packages.
我们构建了一个能够安装任何语言的包的系统，包括本机包。
So the AI, anytime, it needs a package.
所以人工智能在任何时候都需要一个包。
I can go here and show one of those.
我可以去这里展示其中之一。
By the way, the AI can take screenshots as well so that it checks it works.
顺便说一下，人工智能也可以截取屏幕截图，以便检查其是否正常工作。
So here you can see it is taking screenshots to make sure that the homepage is rendering.
所以在这里你可以看到它正在截取屏幕截图以确保主页正在呈现。
Here, you can see it wanted a drag and drop library, and so it installed that.
在这里，您可以看到它需要一个拖放库，因此它安装了它。
And so it has access to all the packages across all languages, including Linux and all of that.
因此它可以访问所有语言的所有软件包，包括 Linux 等等。
And then the layer on top of that is the editor and the infrastructure that runs the editor, including what I described as the multiplayer editor.
然后最上面的层是编辑器和运行编辑器的基础设施，包括我所描述的多人编辑器。
Amjad Masad: And then we expose all of that infrastructure to the AI.
Amjad Masad：然后我们将所有基础设施暴露给人工智能。
And there's almost like a new discipline called AI Computer interfaces.
几乎有一门新学科被称为人工智能计算机接口。
So sort of like HCI is now a ACI and turns out LLMs need interfaces that are actually quite different than humans.
有点像 HCI 现在是 ACI，结果 LLM 需要的界面实际上与人类有很大不同。
They're trying to make them use human interfaces like Anthropic's computer use, but those are really expensive and you need to process all this images and video.
他们试图让它们使用人机界面，就像 Anthropic 的计算机使用一样，但这些真的很昂贵，而且你需要处理所有这些图像和视频。
So instead, for the shell for example, we give it sort of a text representation of what the shell is doing at a certain increments for package installation.
因此，以 shell 为例，我们为它提供了一种文本表示形式，表示 shell 在包安装过程中以一定增量执行的操作。
We give it a certain tool for editing.
我们给它一个特定的编辑工具。
We give it an editor tool that when it's writing the code, it's getting feedback on whether there are errors or not, similar to what a human sees, but it's actually old text just to make it easier.
我们给它一个编辑器工具，当它编写代码时，它会获得有关是否存在错误的反馈，类似于人类所看到的，但它实际上是旧文本，只是为了让它更容易。
So that's AI computer interface, and obviously, all of that is sitting on foundation models.
这就是人工智能计算机接口，显然，所有这些都建立在基础模型上。
So the improvement in foundation models has allowed us to build this.
因此基础模型的改进使我们能够构建这个。
Amjad Masad: The most important model that we use is the Sonnet model from Claude, from Anthropic, and it is the best model at coding.
Amjad Masad：我们使用的最重要的模型是来自 Anthropic 的 Claude 的 Sonnet 模型，它是编码方面最好的模型。
So that's the model we use for coding, but we use models from OpenAI as well because a multi-agent system.
这就是我们用于编码的模型，但我们也使用 OpenAI 的模型，因为这是一个多代理系统。
And so we have models that are critiquing.
所以我们有批评的模型。
We have manager editor model, and we have a critique model and different models will have different powers.
我们有经理编辑模型，我们有批评模型，不同的模型将具有不同的权力。
We also train some of our models, like the embedding model for search is something we trained internally.
我们还训练一些模型，例如用于搜索的嵌入模型是我们内部训练的。
So I actually wrote about it back in '22.
所以我实际上早在 22 年就写过这件事。
I said it's going to be society of models, like products will be made of a lot of different models, and it's quite a heavy engineering project.
我说这将是一个模型的社会，就像产品将由许多不同的模型制成，这是一个相当繁重的工程项目。
Lenny Rachitsky: To say the least.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：至少可以这么说。
We were talking offline and you said you've been working on this since 2009 when you first built the first idea of Replit.
我们在线下进行了交谈，您说自 2009 年您首次提出 Replit 的第一个想法以来，您就一直在从事这方面的工作。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Amjad Masad: Here's the deployed app.
Amjad Masad：这是部署的应用程序。
I can send it to you and you can use it and you can see my request even on the logged out page so I can register, upload it, and log in as admin and move things around.
我可以将其发送给您，您可以使用它，甚至在注销页面上您也可以看到我的请求，以便我可以注册、上传它，并以管理员身份登录并移动内容。
We can see what's in progress, what's completed.
我们可以看到正在进行的工作、已完成的工作。
Lenny Rachitsky: This looks like a product.
Lenny Rachitsky：这看起来像一个产品。
I could see designers spending days designing, passing it to engineering, PMs, having feedback, engineers taking a few days to build it.
我可以看到设计师花了几天时间进行设计，然后将其传递给工程部、产品经理、获得反馈，而工程师则花了几天时间来构建它。
Lenny Rachitsky: And here's just a prompt, here's what I want.
Lenny Rachitsky：这只是一个提示，这就是我想要的。
Amjad Masad: That's right.
阿姆贾德·马萨德：没错。
And we can iterate on it very easily.
我们可以很容易地对其进行迭代。
We can also iterate on the UI.
我们还可以迭代 UI。
We can say, I don't like this or that, and it'll do a good job.
我们可以说，我不喜欢这个或那个，但它会做得很好。
So we can go here, we can start a new session or a new session to create an entirely new feature here, and it'll just do the right thing.
所以我们可以到这里，我们可以开始一个新的会话或一个新的会话来创建一个全新的功能，它只会做正确的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: And it builds from that code base.
Lenny Rachitsky：它是从该代码库构建的。
It understands here's what you've built.
它理解您所构建的内容。
I want to add this thing.
我想添加这个东西。
Amjad Masad: And that becomes your history, right?
Amjad Masad：这就会成为你的历史，对吧？
This was the v1 and now I'm working on this new feature, and it's almost like what engineers do in Git commit messages.
这是 v1，现在我正在研究这个新功能，它几乎就像工程师在 Git 提交消息中所做的那样。
By the way, it generates Git commit messages for everything that it does so you can roll back as well.
顺便说一句，它会为它所做的一切生成 Git 提交消息，因此您也可以回滚。
And so we're trying to make it so that yes, it's for everyone, but we're trying not to abstract too much away.
因此，我们正在努力做到这一点，是的，它适合每个人，但我们尽量不要抽象太多。
We want to build tools for you to learn to use.
我们希望构建供您学习使用的工具。
And so we want power users to be able to understand the full power of Replit and it is really deep product.
因此，我们希望高级用户能够了解 Replit 的全部功能，它是真正深入的产品。
I think you can spend a couple of years to kind of master it.
我认为你可以花几年时间来掌握它。
Lenny Rachitsky: I want to talk about implications, but I want to come back to something you mentioned that is incredible that people may have missed.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想谈谈影响，但我想回到你提到的一些人们可能错过的令人难以置信的事情。
You basically built a computer specifically designed for the AI agent to use that is a different version of a computer specifically optimized for how AI wants to use a computer.
您基本上构建了一台专门为人工智能代理使用而设计的计算机，这是专门针对人工智能使用计算机的方式进行了优化的计算机的不同版本。
Amjad Masad: Yeah.
阿姆贾德·马萨德：是的。
So there's an entire discipline called like HCI, right?
所以有一门完整的学科叫做人机交互，对吧？
It's like how do you do that-
就像你要怎么做一样——
Amjad Masad: Yeah.
阿姆贾德·马萨德：是的。
So now there are papers about AI computer interfaces and interactions.
所以现在有关于人工智能计算机接口和交互的论文。
And so large language models are trained on large stacks of corpus from the internet, but they're still kind of alien creatures.
虽然大型语言模型是在互联网上的大量语料库上进行训练的，但它们仍然是一种外星生物。
So they're not like humans, so they have different behaviors.
所以他们不像人类，所以他们有不同的行为。
It's unclear what's the best way to give it an editor.
目前尚不清楚为其提供编辑器的最佳方式是什么。
So there's so many experimentation about what's the best way to give it a view on what's editing, how many files can you show it before it starts to hallucinate.
因此，关于什么是让它查看正在编辑的内容的最佳方式，以及在它开始产生幻觉之前可以显示多少文件，我们进行了很多实验。
And right now, it's more of an art than science, but it's becoming more and more like a science.
现在，它更像是一门艺术而不是科学，但它变得越来越像一门科学。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is insane.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太疯狂了。
So it's a simple way to think about it.
所以这是一个简单的思考方式。
There's this foundational model, here's what I want you to build, and here's a computer to use to build it.
这是一个基础模型，这是我希望您构建的模型，这是用于构建它的计算机。
Amjad Masad: Here's a computer with a set of tools.
Amjad Masad：这是一台带有一组工具的计算机。
Here's a tool to install a package.
这是一个安装包的工具。
Here's a tool to edit the code.
这是一个编辑代码的工具。
Here's the tool to run a SQL query and also services.
这是运行 SQL 查询和服务的工具。
Here's a bunch of services you can graph from.
您可以通过以下一系列服务绘制图表。
Here's a database service, here's an object source service, here's an auth service.
这是一个数据库服务，这是一个对象源服务，这是一个身份验证服务。
So you can think about it as a bunch of external services, the computer with a bunch of tools, and they're all interfacing with the foundation model.
因此，您可以将其视为一堆外部服务、带有一堆工具的计算机，并且它们都与基础模型进行交互。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's funny listening to this how, it starts to feel like the fact that we might be living in a simulation is not as far-fetched as it may feel.
Lenny Rachitsky：听这个很有趣，我开始觉得我们可能生活在模拟中这一事实并不像人们想象的那么牵强。
Like this feels like the beginnings of what a simulation computer would be.
这感觉就像是模拟计算机的开始。
Amjad Masad: Yes.
阿姆贾德·马萨德：是的。
You can go really Sci-Fi on this and it's like where is it headed, right?
你可以在这方面进行真正的科幻小说，就像它的发展方向一样，对吧？
Amjad Masad: If we give it enough tools, let's say, I can drop it in Slack and instead of interfacing with it in this fashion, I want to interface with it in a totally autonomous way.
Amjad Masad：如果我们给它足够的工具，比如说，我可以将它放入 Slack 中，而不是以这种方式与它交互，我想以完全自主的方式与它交互。
So we actually have this feature coming up where instead of me testing it, we give it another agent.
所以我们实际上有了这个功能，我们给它另一个代理，而不是我测试它。
So here, instead of me interfacing with it and saying this is running or not running, we can give it another agent that is actually testing the application and then let's say interface with it entirely through Slack.
因此，在这里，我们可以给它另一个实际测试应用程序的代理，然后让我们完全通过 Slack 与它交互，而不是我与它交互并说它正在运行或未运行。
And I'll say something like, give me Taylor Swift tickets the moment they land.
我会说，泰勒·斯威夫特落地后就给我门票。
Amjad Masad: And so it'll build an app that continuously monitors the web for when Taylor Swift tickets land and there's an agent that's using the app to be able to get that.
Amjad Masad：因此，它将构建一个应用程序，持续监控网络，以了解泰勒·斯威夫特 (Taylor Swift) 门票何时登陆，并且有一个代理正在使用该应用程序来获取该信息。
And you can imagine it has some kind of wallet or credit card.
你可以想象它有某种钱包或信用卡。
And then the moment it lands, it gets it.
然后当它落地的那一刻，它就得到了。
What I'm trying to say is that software, like agents being able to do software, is how AI gets more general because software runs our lives, runs the internet, runs our businesses.
我想说的是，软件就像能够做软件的代理一样，是人工智能变得更加普遍的原因，因为软件运行着我们的生活，运行着互联网，运行着我们的业务。
And so the more competent AI becomes that software, the more general they are in terms of what they can do.
因此，人工智能软件的能力越强，它们的功能就越通用。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, this can go in so many directions.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，这可以有很多方向。
I'm going to bring us back to the implications for people building products, say, product managers, founders, how does this change, that function, that skill set?
我将带我们回到对产品开发人员的影响，例如产品经理、创始人，这种变化、那种功能、那种技能是如何变化的？
What skills do you see will matter more matter less?
您认为哪些技能更重要而不那么重要？
Which functions are maybe in some danger and they should start thinking about a different career path?
哪些职能可能面临危险，他们应该开始考虑不同的职业道路？
Amjad Masad: One interesting persona that we're seeing is the CEO, the CEO of startup.
Amjad Masad：我们看到的一个有趣的角色是首席执行官，初创公司的首席执行官。
Andrew Wilkinson from Tiny is a big user.
Tiny 的 Andrew Wilkinson 是一个大用户。
And so these people are typically creatives.
所以这些人通常都是有创造力的。
They built a company, they hired people.
他们建立了一家公司，雇佣了员工。
A lot of them can't code.
他们中的很多人都不会编码。
A lot of them are designers or product managers or something else.
他们中的很多人是设计师或产品经理或其他什么。
And you can imagine a bottleneck, you can imagine a bunch of ideas in their head, and the ideas have to translate through them talking.
你可以想象一个瓶颈，你可以想象他们脑子里有一堆想法，这些想法必须通过他们的谈话来转化。
And then someone else listening to them and assuming that someone else actually understands what they say, and then that's someone else going and trying to build what they want to build.
然后其他人倾听他们的意见并假设其他人实际上理解他们所说的内容，然后其他人就开始尝试构建他们想要构建的东西。
And also assuming that person has time, because a lot of times, your engineers are kind of stuck building the current thing.
并且假设那个人有时间，因为很多时候，你的工程师都被困在构建当前的东西上。
They're not thinking about the future thing.
他们没有考虑未来的事情。
And so what gets me excited is a lot of these CEOs are building the future concept, the next product they're going to build, the next, say, company they're going to build.
令我兴奋的是，许多首席执行官正在构建未来的概念，他们将要打造的下一个产品，他们将要打造的下一个公司。
Amjad Masad: And so it unlocks the creativity and again, sort of unblocks them from that.
Amjad Masad：因此它释放了创造力，并再次为他们解除了障碍。
And look, it's a v1 of the product but it can push things forward.
看，这是产品的 v1，但它可以推动事情向前发展。
You can touch it, you can feel it, you can say, okay, this really has lags and we should work on it.
你可以触摸它，你可以感觉到它，你可以说，好吧，这确实有滞后，我们应该努力解决它。
You give it to your engineers and they can improve on it from there.
您将其交给工程师，他们可以从那里对其进行改进。
So that's one persona but I'm really excited about it, the CEO/founder.
这是一个角色，但我对此感到非常兴奋，首席执行官/创始人。
In companies, one of the things that I think is sort of hard about tech companies is these silos between designers, product managers, and engineers.
在公司中，我认为科技公司遇到的困难之一是设计师、产品经理和工程师之间的孤岛。
And everyone feels that pain of, we have low bandwidth communication, which is language and then text on Slack and Zoom calls.
每个人都感受到这种痛苦，我们的通信带宽较低，首先是语言，然后是 Slack 和 Zoom 通话中的文本。
And it leads to a lot of frustration, because it's really easy to misinterpret people and again, leads to siloing where people working on something, and then you pass it on to the next team and it's not really what they expect.
这会导致很多挫败感，因为很容易误解人们，并且再次导致人们在某件事上工作的孤岛，然后你将其传递给下一个团队，而这并不是他们真正所期望的。
Amjad Masad: That happens a lot between designers and engineers, but the common language that everyone shares is code.
Amjad Masad：设计师和工程师之间经常发生这种情况，但每个人共享的共同语言是代码。
Ultimately in software tech companies, everything that we're talking about need to eventually flush out in terms of code.
最终，在软件技术公司中，我们所谈论的一切最终都需要以代码的形式被淘汰。
And so what if the language becomes actually working prototypes and working applications?
如果该语言成为实际可用的原型和可用的应用程序又如何呢？
For example, we have a Figma extension that translate Figma mocks into React that runs on Replit.
例如，我们有一个 Figma 扩展，可以将 Figma 模拟转换为在 Replit 上运行的 React。
So instead of giving the engineers just mocks or screenshots, whatever, you just say, oh, here's a bunch of React code, just make sure it runs on our infrastructure but don't mess with it, don't move the pixels around.
因此，不要只给工程师提供模拟或屏幕截图，无论如何，你只需说，哦，这是一堆 React 代码，只需确保它在我们的基础设施上运行，但不要弄乱它，不要移动像素。
And so I think it just opens up silos of the companies, make communication around product a lot more concrete, because I can give you a working prototype and that'll change how people work, if you can imagine that everyone can make software.
所以我认为它只是打开了公司的孤岛，使围绕产品的沟通更加具体，因为我可以给你一个工作原型，如果你可以想象每个人都可以制作软件，这将改变人们的工作方式。
It's really kind of a radical reimagining of not just what tech companies are but really what most companies are because everyone can be more general.
这确实是一种彻底的重新想象，不仅是对科技公司的定义，也是对大多数公司的真正定义，因为每个人都可以变得更加通用。
Lenny Rachitsky: So say you're a PM listening to this, an engineer or designer, what skills do you think if you were one of these folks?
Lenny Rachitsky：假设您是一名正在聆听此内容的产品经理、一名工程师或设计师，如果您是这些人中的一员，您认为您拥有哪些技能？
If you were in building Replit right now, what kind of skills would you suggest folks focus on more and would you think are just like, okay, this can be less valuable in the future, don't worry about these sorts of things?
如果你现在正在构建 Replit，你会建议人们更多地关注什么样的技能，你是否会认为，好吧，这在未来可能会变得不那么有价值，不要担心这些事情？
And you can either pick one of those three functions or all three.
您可以选择这三个功能之一或全部三个。
Amjad Masad: I think a very important scale that's perhaps harder to develop but it's worth working on is being generative, being more generative, being able to generate new ideas quickly, because you can think about it as a factory line.
Amjad Masad：我认为一个非常重要的规模可能更难开发，但值得努力，那就是富有创造力，更加富有创造力，能够快速产生新想法，因为你可以将其视为一条工厂生产线。
So you have ideas, you have the production of these ideas or the initial production of these ideas, and then you have other people that want to consume these ideas or work with you on these ideas.
所以你有想法，你有这些想法的生产或这些想法的初步生产，然后你有其他人想要消费这些想法或与你一起研究这些想法。
And so typically you're bottlenecked by the middle part where your ideas are kind of like they're a lot of them and they're not fitting in, because they need to be made and they need to be made quickly.
因此，通常你会受到中间部分的瓶颈，你的想法有点像它们很多，但它们不适合，因为它们需要被制作出来，并且需要快速制作。
And so now you open up that bottleneck.
所以现在你打开了这个瓶颈。
So now actually making things is a lot easier.
所以现在实际上做事情要容易得多。
Actually, you become limited by how fast you can generate ideas, and I find that true of myself as well.
事实上，你产生想法的速度会受到限制，我发现我自己也是如此。
I consider myself quite generative, but now I have this tool and I can build a lot more and explore a lot more and I'm finding that, well, actually, I'm running out of ideas sometimes.
我认为自己很有创造力，但现在我有了这个工具，我可以构建更多东西并探索更多东西，我发现，好吧，实际上，有时我已经没有想法了。
Amjad Masad: So training that muscle I think is a good thing.
Amjad Masad：所以我认为训练肌肉是一件好事。
I think learning a little bit of coding and not the traditional way of learning coding.
我认为学习一点编码而不是传统的学习编码方式。
If you go to a coding bootcamp, they're going to start with what is Git?
如果你去编码训练营，他们会从什么是 Git 开始？
Actually my co-founder, Haya, was a designer.
事实上，我的联合创始人哈亚（Haya）是一名设计师。
When we're first building the Replit together, she went to WebAssembly to do a coding course.
当我们第一次一起构建 Replit 时，她去 WebAssembly 学习编码课程。
And the first day, they spent this whole time on Git and she's like, "What is that?
第一天，他们把所有时间都花在了 Git 上，她说：“那是什么？
What does it do?" I still don't know what it exactly does, but it's like you're inverting the process, you're giving the tool before the actual problem.
它有什么作用？”我仍然不知道它到底是做什么的，但这就像你颠倒了这个过程，你在实际问题之前提供了工具。
And so I think all of that stuff, you don't have to worry about, so things that you don't have to worry about.
所以我认为所有这些事情，你不必担心，所以你不必担心。
I think a lot of the, as a PM, as a designer, as someone who's not in your code editor every day, don't worry about all the tooling.
我认为，作为一名产品经理、一名设计师、作为一个不是每天使用代码编辑器的人，不要担心所有的工具。
Amjad Masad: And if you learn a little bit of coding just by talking to an AI, doing a little bit of debugging, building something with Replit, running into a problem and trying to fix it just using AI, you'll learn a bit of coding.
Amjad Masad：如果你只是通过与 AI 交谈、进行一些调试、使用 Replit 构建一些东西、遇到问题并尝试仅使用 AI 来解决它来学习一点编码，那么你就会学到一点编码。
And I have this that's been called not by me, dubbed as Amjad's Law, which is the return on investment for learn to code is doubling every six months.
我有一个不被我称为“阿姆贾德定律”的定律，即学习编程的投资回报率每六个月翻一番。
And really just learning a little bit of that skill, learning a bit of skill about how to prompt AI, how to read code, and be able to debug it.
实际上只是学习一点这种技能，学习一点关于如何提示人工智能、如何阅读代码以及能够调试它的技能。
Every six months, that's netting you more and more power because you're going to be able to create a lot more.
每六个月，你就会获得越来越多的力量，因为你将能够创造更多。
It's going to be easier to create.
创建起来会更容易。
You're going to be able to create a lot more complete things.
你将能够创造出更多更完整的东西。
So that's another skill that I think could be necessary.
这是我认为可能需要的另一项技能。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is super interesting.
Lenny Rachitsky：这非常有趣。
Okay, so this last point, you made Amjad's Law.
好的，最后一点，你提出了阿姆贾德定律。
It's interesting because when people, as someone's listening to this, I could see them being like, engineers are in trouble.
这很有趣，因为当人们，当有人听这个时，我可以看到他们就像，工程师遇到了麻烦。
Why do you need engineers at this point?
为什么此时需要工程师？
These agents are building the code.
这些代理正在构建代码。
Your point is specific engineering skills are going to be incredibly valuable and more and more.
你的观点是，特定的工程技能将变得非常有价值，而且越来越有价值。
How often are they doubling would you say?
你认为它们翻倍的频率是多少？
Every year you said?
你说每年？
Lenny Rachitsky: Every six months, these specific engineering skills are becoming more valuable.
Lenny Rachitsky：每六个月，这些特定的工程技能就会变得更有价值。
And the idea is you don't need to know everything.
这个想法是你不需要知道一切。
You don't need to know the foundation, to build the app as much.
您无需了解基础知识即可构建应用程序。
It's more to unblock the agent and understand the mental model of how this stuff is built so that you can move forward fast.
更重要的是解锁代理并了解这些东西是如何构建的心理模型，以便您可以快速前进。
Amjad Masad: That's right.
阿姆贾德·马萨德：没错。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Understanding the basic components of it, I would say, yes.
了解了它的基本组成部分，我会说，是的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, so it's like we need new engineering schools to teach you these very specific skills versus spending years on algorithms.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，所以我们需要新的工程学校来教你这些非常具体的技能，而不是花费数年的时间在算法上。
Amjad Masad: And I think no one has done that yet, and I think this is a big business probably ready to get built.
Amjad Masad：我认为还没有人做到这一点，而且我认为这是一项可能已经准备好建立的大企业。
It's like AI native coding.
这就像人工智能本机编码。
It's totally different than traditional coding.
它与传统的编码完全不同。
That's why on Hacker News, there's so much skepticism about AI native coding tools, because they're like yeah, it's a glorified autocomplete.
这就是为什么在《黑客新闻》上，人们对人工智能原生编码工具抱有如此多的怀疑，因为它们就像是的，这是一种美化的自动完成功能。
And I understand if you're writing operating system, kernels, it's not really doing that much for you, but if you're building products, it's building it for you at this point.
我知道如果你正在编写操作系统、内核，它并没有真正为你做那么多，但如果你正在构建产品，它此时正在为你构建它。
And so if you're starting a school to teach AI native coding, you would skip so much of computer science and the basic tools, and you would teach the basic idea of how to structure an app, and then you would teach prompting and then you would teach, I think a little bit of debugging.
因此，如果你要开办一所学校来教授人工智能本机编码，你会跳过很多计算机科学和基本工具，你会教授如何构建应用程序的基本概念，然后你会教授提示，然后你会教授，我认为一点调试。
I think debugging is quite a good skill right now to learn.
我认为调试是现在需要学习的一项非常好的技能。
Lenny Rachitsky: Interestingly, if you want to be good at debugging, there's a lot you need to understand, which is basically what you're saying is that's the subset of things to understand is things that break.
Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是，如果你想擅长调试，你需要了解很多东西，这基本上就是你所说的，需要理解的事情的子集是破坏的事情。
And to do that, you have to understand how it all works.
为此，您必须了解这一切是如何运作的。
What are servers?
什么是服务器？
What are APIs?
什么是 API？
All these things.
所有这些事情。
Okay, so we've been talking about how this is very good right now, building a prototype, building a v1, MVP, people can use it, you can deploy it.
好的，所以我们现在一直在谈论这非常好，构建原型，构建 v1，MVP，人们可以使用它，你可以部署它。
You deploy this app, people can start using it, and there's a scale it can reach.
你部署了这个应用程序，人们就可以开始使用它，并且它可以达到一定的规模。
Do you see a future where you can build a Salesforce sized business fully Replit or other tools that can scale to hundreds of billions of dollars of value?
您是否认为未来可以完全使用 Replit 或其他工具来构建 Salesforce 规模的业务，从而扩大到数千亿美元的价值？
Or is there just going to always be some limit of like, you need actual engineers and designers sitting on this thing, building it, thinking it?
或者是否总是存在一些限制，比如你需要真正的工程师和设计师坐在这个东西上，构建它，思考它？
Awesome.
惊人的。
Amjad Masad: If my law is directionally correct, even if the months are not, I'm not exactly right that the duration is correct, you're going to see a compounding effect of the power.
阿姆贾德·马萨德：如果我的法则在方向上是正确的，即使月份不是正确的，我也不完全正确，持续时间是正确的，你会看到权力的复合效应。
It's actually quite hard to convince yourself.
其实要说服自己是一件很难的事。
But if you really convince yourself that we are on a massive scale of improvement in AI, then the answer is yes.
但如果你真的让自己相信我们在人工智能方面正在大规模改进，那么答案是肯定的。
And it's absurd to my engineering mind that I'm saying it is, but know Ray Kurzweil, this futurist talks about how exponentials are really hard for humans to grasp.
对于我的工程头脑来说，我这么说是荒谬的，但是雷·库兹韦尔（Ray Kurzweil）知道，这位未来学家谈论指数对人类来说真的很难掌握。
And so actually when we started building the agent, I told the team, it's easy and we fall in this trap before.
事实上，当我们开始构建代理时，我告诉团队，这很容易，我们以前就陷入过这个陷阱。
It's easy to build and optimize for today.
对于今天来说，构建和优化很容易。
In '22, we built Copilot-like thing and autocomplete.
在 22 年，我们构建了类似 Copilot 的东西和自动完成功能。
We train our own models, we optimize the hell out of them.
我们训练自己的模型，并对其进行优化。
But at some point, that modality was kind of not the right modality, which is the autocomplete modality.
但在某些时候，这种模式并不是正确的模式，即自动完成模式。
Amjad Masad: And the right modality is actually this, I think for now, as being able to chat inside the programming environment and for the agent to create things for you.
Amjad Masad：我认为目前正确的方式实际上是这样，能够在编程环境中聊天，并让代理为你创建东西。
But in order for us to make that bat, a year ago the models were actually not there.
但为了让我们制造那只球棒，一年前模型实际上还不存在。
The models could not do this, but we were like, okay, we're going to build for the models that are landing in six months.
模型无法做到这一点，但我们想，好吧，我们将为六个月后登陆的模型进行构建。
And truly six months later, the model started to land that are capable of this, of the reasoning that we needed and whatever.
真正的六个月后，该模型开始落地，能够实现这一点，能够进行我们需要的推理等等。
And so that was like saw it if you want, which is, oh, wow, we switched to it and the reasoning improved so much.
所以这就像如果你愿意的话看到它一样，那就是，哦，哇，我们转向了它，推理得到了很大的改进。
And six months later, you have a son of you too.
六个月后，你也有了一个儿子。
And so it's really almost like a six months cadence.
所以这实际上几乎是六个月的节奏。
And so if we're really on this trajectory, then I would say next year, you're able to just scale and maybe you get thousands of users paying you.
因此，如果我们真的走在这个轨道上，那么我想说明年，你就能够扩大规模，也许你会得到成千上万的用户付费。
Amjad Masad: The AI can do maintenance.
Amjad Masad：人工智能可以进行维护。
We already showed the AI doing SQL queries and doing migrations, so I will be able to do maintenance, debugging, things like that.
我们已经展示了 AI 执行 SQL 查询和迁移，因此我将能够执行维护、调试等类似操作。
I think where it gets really tough is that when you're hitting scale and you want to architect a system that is resilient, and so that means you would start sharding databases and you would start using different queue systems and components and things like that.
我认为真正困难的地方是，当您达到规模并且想要构建一个具有弹性的系统时，这意味着您将开始对数据库进行分片，并且将开始使用不同的队列系统和组件以及类似的东西。
And I think the AI needs to have access to the entire suite of tools to be able to do this.
我认为人工智能需要访问整套工具才能做到这一点。
Amjad Masad: And I think that's going to be the next bottleneck.
Amjad Masad：我认为这将是下一个瓶颈。
And I think the AI needs to be a lot more reliable at doing that.
我认为人工智能在这方面需要更加可靠。
But I could imagine whatever, five years from now, someone running a billion dollar company with zero employees where it's like the support is handled by AI, the development is handled by AI, and you're just building and creating this thing that people are finding valuable and are paying you for it.
但我可以想象，五年后，有人在零员工的情况下经营一家价值十亿美元的公司，就像支持由人工智能处理，开发由人工智能处理，而你只是构建和创造人们认为有价值的东西，并为此付钱给你。
That being said, it's worth thinking about the economics of it.
话虽如此，值得考虑一下它的经济学。
If the cost of software goes down a lot, then what is the price that you can charge on software?
如果软件的成本大幅下降，那么您可以对软件收取的价格是多少？
So can you actually build the next Salesforce if anyone can generate Salesforce?
那么，如果任何人都可以生成 Salesforce，那么您真的可以构建下一个 Salesforce 吗？
And then the question is, and this is why I emphasize being generative, because I think then the thing that will make you better is by being able to iterate and improve the thing really quickly and generate new ideas.
然后问题是，这就是为什么我强调创造力，因为我认为让你变得更好的事情是能够快速迭代和改进事情并产生新的想法。
Lenny Rachitsky: And stay ahead of all the other people building these tools so quickly.
Lenny Rachitsky：并领先于所有其他如此快速地构建这些工具的人。
Oh, my God.
我的天啊。
An interesting other kind of mental model I'm seeing as you talk about this sort of thing is not to offend religious folks, but there's this concept of God of the gaps.
当你谈论这类事情时，我看到的另一种有趣的心理模型不是冒犯宗教人士，而是存在间隙之神的概念。
I imagine you've heard that where it's like God explains all the things that we don't yet understand.
我想你听说过，就像上帝解释了所有我们还不明白的事情。
And over time that kind of space shrinks and God's like all the things we don't get yet, those gaps.
随着时间的推移，这种空间会缩小，上帝就像我们还没有得到的所有东西一样，那些间隙。
That was God that proves there needs to be a God.
那是上帝证明了需要有一位上帝。
And it feels like right now, humans are the gaps in these tools or these agents you talk about that you can hire within Replit are fixing these little gaps.
现在感觉，人类就是这些工具中的差距，或者你谈论的可以在 Replit 中雇用的这些代理正在修复这些小差距。
And over time, AI will fix these things themselves.
随着时间的推移，人工智能将自行解决这些问题。
Amjad Masad: Unless we hit some fundamental limit and the current regime of AI, which I'm not an expert about how far transformers could scale, but I feel like we found the thing that could scale pretty far, but maybe there are limitations in data or other things like that that we could be surprised by.
Amjad Masad：除非我们达到了一些基本限制和人工智能的当前制度，我不是变形金刚可以扩展多远的专家，但我觉得我们发现了可以扩展相当远的东西，但也许数据或其他类似的东西存在局限性，我们可能会感到惊讶。
But if there isn't, then we are on a massive trajectory of removing these gaps quickly.
但如果没有，那么我们就将走在快速消除这些差距的大轨道上。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, very true.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，非常正确。
We have no idea.
我们不知道。
We keep thinking it's just going to keep going, but maybe it'll stop at some point.
我们一直认为它会继续下去，但也许它会在某个时候停止。
I could keep going and going, but I think we should also let people go play with these things and process all the things we've been talking about.
我可以继续下去，但我认为我们也应该让人们去玩这些东西并处理我们一直在谈论的所有事情。
Is there anything else that you think might be helpful for folks to think about or learn or study?
您认为还有什么可能对人们思考、学习或研究有帮助的吗？
Amjad Masad: I'll give advice to founders or leaders at companies.
Amjad Masad：我会给公司的创始人或领导者提供建议。
The way we work is going to change rapidly, and it's important to be resilient to that change.
我们的工作方式将迅速发生变化，适应这种变化非常重要。
One thing that I think is really difficult now is having roadmaps, especially if you're doing anything in AI, but really anything that AI could affect, you want to be able to react to it really quickly.
我认为现在真正困难的一件事是制定路线图，特别是如果你在人工智能方面做任何事情，但实际上人工智能可能影响的任何事情，你都希望能够快速做出反应。
And so when the Anthropic drop the computer use set of capability, we slaughtered our roadmap because we don't really have an explicit roadmap.
因此，当人择放弃计算机使用功能集时，我们就放弃了我们的路线图，因为我们实际上没有明确的路线图。
We immediately jumped on it and started building things and we launched some things around it.
我们立即跳上它并开始构建东西，并围绕它推出了一些东西。
We're going to be doing more with it, but there's going to be capabilities that are going to drop.
我们将用它做更多的事情，但有些功能将会下降。
And you want to really, in some cases, if it really affects your business, you want to be able to jump on it really, really quickly.
在某些情况下，如果它确实影响了您的业务，您希望能够非常非常快地抓住它。
So being agile, not being stuck with roadmaps, being able to just say, oh, we're just going to switch priorities right away, is going to be super important.
因此，保持敏捷，不拘泥于路线图，能够说，哦，我们要立即改变优先级，这将是非常重要的。
Amjad Masad: Not being, like I said, with silos at Replit, there's so many people that are on the scale of designer to engineer, designer, product manager.
Amjad Masad：就像我说的那样，Replit 并不是孤立的，而是有很多从设计师到工程师、设计师、产品经理的人员。
Actually, I mentioned Amman earlier.
事实上，我之前提到过安曼。
He started as a designer at Replit, and now as a product manager.
他最初在 Replit 担任设计师，现在担任产品经理。
We have people who start as designers, become engineers, and we have people in the middle and we're comfortable with that design engineers that fit at different parts of the scale.
我们有人从设计师开始，后来成为工程师，我们也有中间人，我们对适合不同规模的设计工程师感到满意。
And the design engineers go to the design correct meetings and some designers go to the engineering meetings.
设计工程师参加设计正确会议，一些设计师参加工程会议。
You got to be fluid because again, when designers can code and engineers can design, I mean it really becomes, you can't have a lot of structure around that.
你必须保持流畅，因为当设计师可以编码、工程师可以设计时，我的意思是，你不能有太多围绕它的结构。
So you want to build a culture and you want to build an environment or milieu that is really, really flexible, which is uncomfortable for a lot of people.
所以你想要建立一种文化，你想要建立一个非常非常灵活的环境或氛围，这对很多人来说是不舒服的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Man, the future is wild.
Lenny Rachitsky：伙计，未来是疯狂的。
Everyone's a hybrid person now.
现在大家都是混血儿了。
Let me just actually double down on what you just said, which I think is really interesting.
让我实际上加倍强调你刚才所说的话，我认为这非常有趣。
It's almost like if you're an engineer, where your skill set will become most valuable is unblocking these AI tools and knowing debugging and figuring out how to allow it to go further and further and further.
这几乎就像如果你是一名工程师，你的技能组合将变得最有价值的是解锁这些人工智能工具并了解调试并弄清楚如何让它走得越来越远。
Within PM and design land, based on what you're describing, where the skills will become more valuable is generating ideas, almost like finding opportunities, discovery, finding what problems need to be solved, and then articulating that as clearly as possible to the AI tooling.
在 PM 和设计领域中，根据您所描述的内容，技能将变得更有价值的是产生想法，几乎就像寻找机会、发现、找到需要解决的问题，然后尽可能清楚地向 AI 工具阐明这一点。
Amjad Masad: Yeah, this is a very crisp sort of advice that people can follow today, I think.
阿姆贾德·马萨德：是的，我认为这是人们今天可以遵循的非常明确的建议。
Lenny Rachitsky: Oh man, what a world.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：天哪，这真是一个世界啊。
Okay, I'm jot.
好吧，我是小白。
This is incredible.
这太不可思议了。
My mind is racing.
我的思绪飞速运转。
I've got to go build some apps immediately.
我必须立即去构建一些应用程序。
Lenny Rachitsky: I will do that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我会这么做的。
So just to leave listeners with a couple things.
所以只是想留给听众一些事情。
One is just, what should they know?
一是，他们应该知道什么？
Where do they find you?
他们在哪里找到你？
How do they try Replit?
他们如何尝试 Replit？
Anything else other than just go to replit.com?
除了访问 replit.com 之外，还有其他方法吗？
Amjad Masad: Yeah, just go to replit.com.
Amjad Masad：是的，只需访问 replit.com。
It's an open beta right now.
现在是公开测试版。
We're kind of quickly improving and going to exit beta I think in a few weeks.
我们正在快速改进，我想几周后就会退出测试版。
But if you're comfortable testing something that's not perfect, go to replit.com.
但如果您愿意测试不完美的东西，请访问 replit.com。
If you subscribe to our core plan, you should be able to access the agent and start using it.
如果您订阅了我们的核心计划，您应该能够访问代理并开始使用它。
And we are, I think the place where we're most active is Twitter.
我认为我们最活跃的地方是 Twitter。
So Twitter are like X, the handle Replit, R-E-P-L-I-T or my handle @amasad.
所以 Twitter 就像 X、用户名 Replit、R-E-P-L-I-T 或我的用户名 @amasad。
Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，是的。
One other thing I wanted to make sure we had a chance to touch on is you're working on something new, something that's coming in the very new future, maybe the day this episode drops.
我想确保我们有机会接触的另一件事是你正在研究一些新的东西，一些在全新的未来即将出现的东西，也许是这一集结束的那一天。
Talk about that.
谈谈那个。
Amjad Masad: All right.
阿姆贾德·马萨德：好的。
So depending on when the episode is coming out, this could be the first time people hear about it.
因此，根据剧集的播出时间，这可能是人们第一次听说它。
But we have this product called agent.
但我们有这个产品叫代理。
It is sort of high agency, does everything from setting up the project and all of that.
它是一种高级代理机构，负责从建立项目等所有事情。
And so now, we are working on assistant.
现在，我们正在开发助手。
Assistant is let's say the cousin of agent.
助理可以说是特工的表弟。
It is a little less powerful but a lot more controllable.
它的威力稍弱，但更可控。
You can focus on features or areas of the code that you want to change and you still don't have to know how to code, but it is a lot more manageable and it is a lot faster.
您可以专注于想要更改的代码功能或区域，并且仍然不必知道如何编码，但它更易于管理并且速度更快。
Amjad Masad: So you saw how it took some time to kind of create the project and code some of the things.
Amjad Masad：所以您看到了如何花费一些时间来创建项目并编写一些代码。
Assistant is in the order of milliseconds and seconds to be able to respond to you.
Assistant 能够以毫秒和秒的量级响应您。
And so again, as I talk about the idea of tools, we want people to have as much power and autonomy as possible.
因此，当我谈论工具的想法时，我们希望人们拥有尽可能多的权力和自主权。
And so there are certain instances where agent is the best.
因此，在某些情况下，代理是最好的。
It's going to do the debugging for you, it's going to create the database for you.
它将为您进行调试，并为您创建数据库。
But if you want more control, assistant is going to give you that.
但如果你想要更多的控制权，助手将为你提供。
Lenny Rachitsky: Just so folks totally understand what this is going to do for them.
Lenny Rachitsky：这样人们就能完全理解这将为他们带来什么。
What's the mental model for what this is?
这是什么心理模型？
If it's like a person, we're helping you out.
如果它像一个人，我们正在帮助你。
Amjad Masad: Agent is like having a developer work.
Amjad Masad：代理就像开发人员的工作。
You give them the PRD, right?
你给他们 PRD，对吗？
And they're going to go and build the thing.
他们将去建造这个东西。
Assistant is like you're sitting next to them.
助理就像您坐在他们旁边一样。
So they built the thing and now you walk over to their desk and you say, let me move this button.
所以他们建造了这个东西，现在你走到他们的办公桌前说，让我移动这个按钮。
Three pixels to the left.
向左三个像素。
Let me change this thing.
让我改变这件事。
So small increments of changes that you want happen really quickly and you want it reliably, that will give you that.
您希望快速发生并且可靠的少量更改，这将给您带来好处。
So it's just much faster iteration on UI and things like that.
因此，UI 等方面的迭代速度要快得多。
Lenny Rachitsky: Incredible.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：难以置信。
The future is wild.
未来是狂野的。
Final question I always ask everybody, how can listeners be useful to you?
最后一个问题我总是问大家，听众如何对你有用？
Amjad Masad: Come work at Replit.
Amjad Masad：来 Replit 工作吧。
We have a PM role.
我们有一个 PM 角色。
I think up if you're product manager.
我想如果你是产品经理。
We're hiring engineers and product managers.
我们正在招聘工程师和产品经理。
So come work at Replit or refer someone to Replit, especially if you're like our tools and you want them to get better.
因此，来 Replit 工作或推荐某人使用 Replit，特别是如果您喜欢我们的工具并且希望它们变得更好。
The best way to do that is to get us great people we can hire.
做到这一点的最好方法就是为我们聘请优秀的人才。
Lenny Rachitsky: Well, you're about to get a flood of product managers applying.
Lenny Rachitsky：好吧，你将会收到大量产品经理的申请。
Goodluck.
祝你好运。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amjad, thank you so much for being here.
Lenny Rachitsky：Amjad，非常感谢您来到这里。
This was incredible.
这太不可思议了。
Amjad Masad: Thank you.
阿姆贾德·马萨德：谢谢。
Thank you for your podcast and the community that you've built and newsletter and everything.
感谢您的播客、您建立的社区、时事通讯以及一切。
It's been awesome to watch.
观看起来真是太棒了。
Lenny Rachitsky: Thanks, man.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：谢谢，伙计。
Appreciate that.
很欣赏这一点。
Bye everyone.
再见大家。
Thank you so much for listening.
非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。