Making an impact through authenticity and curiosity | Ami Vora (CPO at Faire, ex-WhatsApp, FB, IG)

Lenny Rachitsky: Boz, the CTO of Meta, said something about you.

Lenny Rachitsky：Meta 的首席技术官 Boz 说了一些关于你的事情。

"Working with Ami, she could have the most profound disagreement in the world and she would respond, fascinating, you have to tell me more why you think that."

“与阿米一起工作，她可能会产生世界上最深刻的分歧，但她会做出回应，令人着迷，你必须告诉我更多你为什么这么想。”

Ami Vora: I really enjoy being right and then it turns out in the working world, that did not serve me so great.

Ami Vora：我真的很喜欢自己是对的，但事实证明，在工作世界中，这对我并没有多大帮助。

I think the hard part is sublimating your ego a little bit and saying it's more important to get to the outcome than to be right.

我认为困难的部分是稍微升华你的自我，并说获得结果比正确更重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love this very tactical piece of advice when you're trying to come up with a metaphor or analogy, think about what you want your users to feel when you're using the product.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个非常战术性的建议，当你试图想出一个比喻或类比时，想想你希望用户在使用产品时感受到什么。

Ami Vora: If we all agree that the feeling of something should be, I'm sitting in Dolores Park with my friends on a sunny Saturday, then people will just naturally build something that feels more consistent.

Ami Vora：如果我们都同意某种东西的感觉应该是，我在一个阳光明媚的星期六和我的朋友坐在多洛雷斯公园，那么人们就会自然地构建出感觉更一致的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's also this metaphor about the hill climb.

Lenny Rachitsky：还有一个关于爬山的比喻。

Ami Vora: For me, the hill climb is all about the difference between a local optimum and a global optimum.

Ami Vora：对我来说，爬山就是局部最优和全局最优之间的区别。

You're standing on top of the hill, you're looking down, you can see rolling hills, the sheep, the grass, whatever, but then, way off in the distance you can see a mountain.

你站在山顶上，往下看，你可以看到连绵起伏的山丘、羊群、草地等等，但随后，在远处你可以看到一座山。

And the thing that gets me through the valley is remembering what the summit feels like.

让我穿过山谷的就是记住登顶的感觉。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Ami Vora.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天，我的客人是 Ami Vora。

Ami is Chief Product Officer at Faire, which connects independent retailers and brands around the world, and I believe is the most successful and biggest B2B marketplace startup out there.

Ami 是 Faire 的首席产品官，该公司连接了世界各地的独立零售商和品牌，我相信这是目前最成功、最大的 B2B 市场初创公司。

Prior to Faire, Ami was employee 150 at Facebook, where she launched the first Facebook developer platform and was later head of product for the $55 billion global Facebook ads business.

在加入 Faire 之前，Ami 是 Facebook 的第 150 号员工，在那里她推出了第一个 Facebook 开发者平台，后来担任价值 550 亿美元的全球 Facebook 广告业务的产品主管。

She also oversaw the introduction of ads on the Instagram platform and most recently, she led product and design for the largest messaging app in the world, WhatsApp.

她还负责 Instagram 平台上广告的推出，最近，她领导了世界上最大的消息应用程序 WhatsApp 的产品和设计。

Lenny Rachitsky: In our conversation we cover a lot of ground, including building your strategy skills, how to disagree with people skillfully, being a successful woman in tech, using metaphors and imagery to rally your team and get your point across, setting up effective goals, plus a bunch of jokes in the lightning round that you don't want to miss.

Lenny Rachitsky：在我们的谈话中，我们涵盖了很多内容，包括培养你的策略技能、如何巧妙地与人提出不同意见、成为一名成功的科技女性、使用隐喻和图像来团结你的团队并传达你的观点、设定有效的目标，以及闪电回合中的一堆你不想错过的笑话。

This was a really special and authentic conversation that I'm very excited to bring to you.

这是一次非常特别和真实的对话，我很高兴能为大家带来。

With that, I bring you, Ami Vora.

就这样，我带你来了，阿米·沃拉。

Lenny Rachitsky: Ami, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：阿米，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Ami Vora: Oh, thank you.

阿米·沃拉：噢，谢谢。

I'm so happy to be here.

我很高兴来到这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: So, when I asked you about your goal for our conversation today, you said the most amazing thing, which I love.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以，当我问你今天谈话的目标时，你说了最令人惊奇的话，我很喜欢。

You said that your goal is to be as authentic as possible and to show that people can be pretty messy and imperfect at times, yet still be very successful.

你说你的目标是尽可能真实，并表明人们有时可能非常混乱和不完美，但仍然非常成功。

I love that so much.

我非常喜欢这个。

Let's definitely try to do this.

我们一定要尝试这样做。

Is there anything else you want to add on that?

您还有什么要补充的吗？

Ami Vora: Yeah, I mean, maybe I'll just say a couple more words on that.

Ami Vora：是的，我的意思是，也许我会就此多说几句话。

Actually, I feel like when I was coming up, when I looked at people who were successful, they seemed to have everything figured out, especially the women.

事实上，我觉得当我崛起时，当我看到那些成功的人时，他们似乎已经解决了一切，尤其是女性。

They were all super women, where they respond to every email in 10 seconds, they didn't seem to sleep, they always wore high heels.

她们都是超级女人，她们在 10 秒内回复每封电子邮件，她们似乎没有睡觉，总是穿着高跟鞋。

They were just perfect and I was just like, oh, I guess I'm never going to be successful.

他们太完美了，我当时想，哦，我想我永远不会成功。

That is not me.

那不是我。

I love to sleep, I waste time doing absurd things all the time.

我爱睡觉，总是浪费时间做一些荒唐的事情。

Ami Vora: And I'll tell you how glamorous my lifestyle is, I'm currently working out of my bathroom.

Ami Vora：我会告诉你我的生活方式是多么迷人，我目前正在浴室里工作。

I'm talking to you from my bathroom, which is where I work from because I love my house, it's a great house, wasn't meant for work from home, three kids, two parents remote work, and it was just the place with the most closing doors between me and my children when the pandemic started.

我在我的浴室里和你说话，那是我工作的地方，因为我爱我的房子，这是一栋很棒的房子，不适合在家工作，三个孩子，两个父母远程工作，而且在大流行开始时，它只是我和我的孩子之间最接近的地方。

And so it just took me a while to realize that actually, it's all fine.

所以我花了一段时间才意识到实际上一切都很好。

No one's got it fully figured out, you never know how someone else is living.

没有人能完全弄清楚，你永远不知道别人是如何生活的。

Most of us are winging it and learning as we're going and learning through trial and error and it's all normal.

我们大多数人都是即兴发挥，边走边学，通过反复试验来学习，这很正常。

It's all fine and I can do it and you can do it, and everyone.

一切都很好，我能做到，你也能做到，每个人都能做到。

Lenny Rachitsky: I so love hearing this.

Lenny Rachitsky：我非常喜欢听这个。

This is something people often want to hear more of on this podcast, because there's all these stories of here's all these successes, here's all these things I did and everything, it just always seems to work out.

这是人们经常想在这个播客上听到更多的内容，因为这里有所有这些成功的故事，这里有我所做的所有这些事情和一切，它似乎总是有效。

And we try to, we have this failure corner on the podcast where people share story failure.

我们尝试在播客上设置失败角，人们可以在这里分享失败的故事。

So I love just setting that frame for this conversation of just super being real and being clear that there's a lot of things that go wrong behind the scenes that people often don't hear about.

因此，我喜欢为这次对话设定一个框架，让对话变得非常真实，并清楚地表明幕后有很多人们通常没有听说过的问题。

Ami Vora: I for a long time felt like I was held back because I don't have a plan, but I realized that probably the most important thing is to just acknowledge that that is true for me.

Ami Vora：很长一段时间我都觉得自己被阻碍了，因为我没有计划，但我意识到最重要的事情可能就是承认这对我来说是正确的。

That I'm not going to be a person with a plan, and actually the thing that has consistently served me is to do the thing that feels right, go to the place that feels like home, work with the people who feel like my friends.

我不会成为一个有计划的人，实际上一直对我有用的事情就是做感觉正确的事情，去感觉像家的地方，与感觉像我朋友的人一起工作。

Just work where when I put on the code of the job, I feel like, oh, this is a place where I could really be lucky, I could be creative, I'm in the right spot, as opposed to feeling like, oh, there is an end state that I know of and I'm just going to have to work my way to that end state.

当我写下工作代码时，我会感觉，哦，这是一个我真的很幸运的地方，我可以有创造力，我处于正确的位置，而不是感觉，哦，有一个我知道的最终状态，我必须努力达到那个最终状态。

Whenever I get in that zone of, there's only one outcome and I just have to get there, I'm not my best.

每当我进入那个区域时，只有一个结果，而我必须到达那里，我不是最好的。

I'm not bringing the creativity and the luck and the excitement in the same way.

我不会以同样的方式带来创造力、运气和兴奋。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let me tell you about a product called Sidebar.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我向您介绍一款名为 Sidebar 的产品。

The best way to level up your career is to surround yourself with extraordinary peers.

提升职业生涯的最佳方法是让自己周围都是杰出的同行。

This gives you more than a leg up, it gives you a leap forward.

这不仅能让你进步，还能让你向前飞跃。

This worked really well for me in my career and this is the Sidebar ethos.

这对我的职业生涯非常有效，这就是侧边栏精神。

When you have a trusted group of peers, you can discuss challenges you're having, get career advice and just gut check how you're thinking about your work, your career, and your life.

当你有一群值得信赖的同事时，你可以讨论你遇到的挑战，获得职业建议，并直觉地检查你如何看待你的工作、职业和生活。

This was a big trajectory changer for me, but it's hard to build this trusted group of peers.

这对我来说是一个巨大的轨迹改变，但建立这个值得信赖的同行群体是很困难的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Sidebar is a private highly vetted leadership program where senior leaders are matched with peer groups to lean on for unbiased opinions, diverse perspectives and raw feedback.

Lenny Rachitsky：Sidebar 是一个经过严格审查的私人领导力项目，高级领导者与同行群体相匹配，以获取公正的意见、不同的观点和原始反馈。

Guided by world-class programming and facilitation, Sidebar enables you to get focused, tactical feedback in every step of your career journey.

在世界一流的编程和便利指导下，Sidebar 使您能够在职业生涯的每一步中获得有针对性的战术反馈。

If you're a listener of this podcast, you're already committed to growth.

如果您是此播客的听众，那么您已经致力于成长。

Sidebar is the missing piece to catalyze your career.

侧边栏是促进您职业生涯的缺失部分。

93% of members say Sidebar helped them achieve a significant positive change in their career.

93% 的会员表示 Sidebar 帮助他们在职业生涯中实现了重大的积极变化。

Why spend a decade finding your people when you can meet them at Sidebar today?

今天您就可以在补充工具栏上见到您的朋友，为什么要花十年的时间来寻找他们呢？

Join thousands of top senior leaders who have taken the first step to career growth, from companies like Microsoft, Amazon, and Meta by visiting sidebar.com/lenny.

访问 sidebar.com/lenny，加入来自 Microsoft、Amazon 和 Meta 等公司的数千名已迈出职业发展第一步的高级领导者行列。

That's sidebar.com/lenny.

这是 sidebar.com/lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Anvil.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Anvil 为您带来。

Their document SDK helps product teams build and launch software for documents, fast.

他们的文档 SDK 帮助产品团队快速构建和启动文档软件。

Companies like Carta and Vouch Insurance use Anvil to accelerate the development of their document workflows.

Carta 和 Vouch Insurance 等公司使用 Anvil 来加速文档工作流程的开发。

Getting to market fast is a top priority for product teams, and the last thing that you or your developers want is to build document workflows from scratch.

快速进入市场是产品团队的首要任务，您或您的开发人员最不希望看到的就是从头开始构建文档工作流程。

It's time consuming, expensive and distracts from core work.

它既耗时又昂贵，而且会分散核心工作的注意力。

You could stitch together multiple tools and manage those integrations or you can use an all-in-one document SDK.

您可以将多个工具组合在一起并管理这些集成，也可以使用一体化文档 SDK。

Lenny Rachitsky: Most product managers will tell you, paperwork sucks.

Lenny Rachitsky：大多数产品经理都会告诉你，文书工作很糟糕。

Anvil's document SDK helps teams get to market fast, incorporate your brand's style and give you back time to focus on your company's core differentiated features.

Anvil 的文档 SDK 可帮助团队快速进入市场、融入您的品牌风格，并让您有时间专注于公司的核心差异化功能。

For your users, paperwork often starts with an AI powered web form styled and embedded in your application.

对于您的用户来说，文书工作通常从人工智能驱动的 Web 表单开始，该表单的样式和嵌入到您的应用程序中。

From there, you can route data to your backend systems and to the correct fields in your PDFs via API.

从那里，您可以将数据路由到后端系统并通过 API 路由到 PDF 中的正确字段。

Complete the process with a white labeled e-signature.

使用白色标签的电子签名完成该过程。

Lenny Rachitsky: The best part about Anvil is the level of customization their SDK provides.

Lenny Rachitsky：Anvil 最好的部分是其 SDK 提供的定制级别。

Non-technical folks love Anvil's drag and drop builder and developers love their flexible APIs and easy to understand documentation.

非技术人员喜欢 Anvil 的拖放构建器，开发人员喜欢他们灵活的 API 和易于理解的文档。

Build documents software fast with Anvil, that's useanvil.com/lenny, to learn more or start a free trial.

使用 Anvil 快速构建文档软件，即 useanvil.com/lenny，了解更多信息或开始免费试用。

That's useanvil.com/lenny.

那是 useanvil.com/lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's actually spend some more time here.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们实际上可以在这里多花一些时间。

I wasn't planning to go here yet, but this is really great and important advice.

我还没打算去这里，但这确实是很棒且重要的建议。

I've just, basically you're saying that a lot of your success has come from following people that are awesome.

我只是，基本上你是说你的很多成功都来自于追随很棒的人。

Can you just talk more about that, just what it is you've followed and seen that has helped you land in places that have worked out so well, because clearly you've done incredibly well.

您能否多谈谈这一点，您所遵循和看到的是什么帮助您到达了效果如此好的地方，因为显然您做得非常好。

Ami Vora: I mean, I think a lot of us are just like, you have a spreadsheet in your head of the axes and certainly when you're choosing between jobs, for me it feels like, oh man, the rest of my career hangs in the balance of making the exact right decision and getting the exact right job.

Ami Vora：我的意思是，我认为我们很多人都会这样，你的脑子里有一个电子表格，当然，当你在工作之间进行选择时，对我来说，感觉就像，哦，伙计，我职业生涯的其余部分取决于做出正确的决定和获得正确的工作之间的平衡。

And you work through all of this spreadsheet mass of, if I took this job, here's what it would do for me, here's where I'd be in five years, etc. And I have that engine in my head also, but what I try to do is work through the spreadsheets and then tear it up because none of that stuff is actually going to determine how good I am at the job.

你要处理所有这些电子表格，如果我接受这份工作，这就是它会为我做的事情，这就是我五年后的处境，等等。我脑子里也有这个引擎，但我试图做的是处理电子表格，然后把它撕掉，因为这些东西实际上都无法决定我在这份工作上的表现。

The thing that'll determine...

那件事将决定...

In my track record, the thing that has determined it is when I walk through the doors, do I feel like I'm lucky to be there?

在我的记录中，决定这一点的是当我走进大门时，我是否觉得自己很幸运能在那里？

Ami Vora: So for me, it's actually a lot more emotional.

Ami Vora：所以对我来说，这实际上更加情绪化。

I try to just put on the coat of the job.

我试着穿上工作的外衣。

When I wake up in the morning, I'm like, what would it be like if I were doing this job?

当我早上醒来时，我想，如果我做这份工作会是什么样子？

What would I think about on my commute?

我在通勤途中会想什么？

Who would I have lunch with?

我会和谁一起吃午饭？

Do I like them?

我喜欢他们吗？

What problems am I going to solve today?

我今天要解决什么问题？

And that gives me an emotional response, which is just much more telling than the spreadsheets of, here's where I'm going to be in five years.

这给了我一种情感上的反应，这比电子表格更能说明问题，这就是我五年后的处境。

Ami Vora: And for me, the thing that has led me to the places where I do my best work is a feeling of being at home, which is all about trust and trust with the people around me.

Ami Vora：对我来说，引导我到达工作最好的地方的是一种宾至如归的感觉，这就是对周围人的信任和信任。

Can I walk through and feel like these people are going to have my back, they're going to let me take risks, I'm going to enjoy spending time with them?

我是否可以走过并感觉这些人会支持我，他们会让我承担风险，我会享受和他们在一起的时光？

And that's where I feel like I've always just been able to try more things and do better because a big, trust is a big unlock for me.

这就是我觉得我总是能够尝试更多事情并做得更好的地方，因为巨大的信任对我来说是一个很大的释放。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love this metaphor of putting on the coat of the job, of just feeling out what it would be to work there.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个比喻，即披上工作外衣，感受在那里工作会是什么样子。

I imagine that was something that you did before you joined Faire, which I want to talk about, but let me transition a bit to talking about Meta and specifically, Boz.

我想这是你在加入 Faire 之前所做的事情，我想谈谈这一点，但让我稍微谈谈 Meta，特别是 Boz。

The CTO of Meta was on this podcast a few months ago and he said something about you that I want to read.

几个月前，Meta 的首席技术官参加了这个播客，他说了一些关于你的事情，我想读一下。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so you've heard what he said about you?

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，你听过他对你的评价吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，酷。

So let me read this and then I want to learn from you how to do this.

让我读一下这篇文章，然后我想向您学习如何做到这一点。

So here's what he said.

这就是他所说的。

"Working with Ami, it was like watching an alien because she could have the most profound disagreement in the world with somebody and they would say something that she thought was not just wrong, but crazy wrong, and she would respond, 'Fascinating, you have to tell me more why you think that.' And she meant it from the core of her being.

“和阿米一起工作，就像看着一个外星人，因为她可能会与某人产生世界上最深刻的分歧，他们会说一些她认为不仅是错误的，而且是疯狂错误的事情，而她会回应，‘太神奇了，你必须告诉我更多你为什么这么想。’她从内心深处就这么想。

She saw this schism and rather than reacting as if it was a threat, she reacted with the most genuine and profound curiosity.

她看到了这种分裂，并没有表现得好像这是一种威胁，而是以最真诚和最深刻的好奇心做出反应。

I just watched it absolutely tear down walls between points of view.

我只是看着它完全拆除了观点之间的墙壁。

Embracing curiosity in those moments of challenges completely changed my life and I owe that to Ami Vora."

在那些充满挑战的时刻拥抱好奇心彻底改变了我的生活，这要归功于 Ami Vora。”

Ami Vora: Oh man, I love Boz, what a great guy, and so kind of him to say that.

Ami Vora：天啊，我爱博兹，他真是个好人，他能这么说真是太好了。

I mean, I will say that this did not come naturally to me.

我的意思是，我会说这对我来说并不是自然而然的。

I really enjoy being right, I love to be right.

我真的很喜欢做对的人，我喜欢做对的人。

I think most of us love being right, and at least in my childhood, part of my identity was built on being the person who was right and being the person who knew everything.

我认为我们大多数人都喜欢做对的人，至少在我的童年时期，我的部分身份是建立在做一个正确的人和一个知道一切的人的基础上的。

Ami Vora: And then it turns out that in the working world, that did not serve me so great, it wasn't great to walk into things and be like, all y'all are wrong, I am the only answer, everyone please to listen to me and stop talking.

Ami Vora：然后事实证明，在工作世界中，这对我没有多大帮助，走进事情并说，你们都错了，我是唯一的答案，每个人都请听我说并停止说话，这并不好。

And what really happened was that someone pointed out to me that not only...

真正发生的是有人向我指出，不仅......

One of my old managers pointed out to me that not only was I spending a lot of energy trying to think through every possible thing by myself so I could be totally right, I was often not really coming to the right answer.

我的一位前任经理向我指出，我不仅花费大量精力尝试自己思考每一种可能的事情，以便自己完全正确，而且我常常无法真正得出正确的答案。

Other people have a bunch of information that I do not have.

其他人有很多我没有的信息。

And so I'm just ignoring that, I was letting my ego overtake my desire to get to the best outcome, which is just, that's a silly trade off and an unnecessary one.

所以我只是忽略了这一点，我让我的自我超越了我对获得最佳结果的渴望，这只是，这是一种愚蠢的权衡，也是不必要的。

Ami Vora: The thing that changed there is me just saying it's more important for us to get to the outcome and I very selfishly just like to learn more things.

Ami Vora：改变的是我只是说对我们来说取得结果更重要，我非常自私地喜欢学习更多东西。

And so by deciding that I already knew everything, I was cutting myself off from learning the things that other people were really good at and it's so easy to just open the door instead and say like, hey, you seem to know something that I don't know yet.

因此，通过认定我已经知道了一切，我就切断了自己学习其他人真正擅长的东西的机会，而且很容易只是打开门说，嘿，你似乎知道一些我还不知道的东西。

Why not tell me about it?

为什么不告诉我呢？

I'm going to get better.

我会好起来的。

We'll probably come to the right outcome.

我们可能会得到正确的结果。

Maybe you'll have a better time.

也许你会过得更好。

Why not?

为什么不呢？

Ami Vora: And so it was a little bit just accidental evolution in that direction.

Ami Vora：所以这只是朝这个方向的偶然演变。

But it's made work and life so much more interesting to just be like, hey, what does this person know that I don't know yet?

但这让工作和生活变得更加有趣，就像，嘿，这个人知道什么我还不知道的事情？

It means that every meeting you walk into, you're probably not going to get bored and I get bored a lot, but if you assume that every person there knows something that you don't know, then it's not just wait to get to the right answer, it's like, discover the thing that they know that you don't know and it becomes just a little bit of uncovering.

这意味着你参加的每一次会议，你可能不会感到无聊，而我却很无聊，但如果你假设每个人都知道一些你不知道的东西，那么就不仅仅是等待得到正确的答案，就像是发现他们知道你不知道的事情，它就变成了一点点揭示。

Lenny Rachitsky: For people that want to learn to be good at this the way you are, a couple things that I take away from the historian and the way you're talking about this is, one is there's an enthusiasm of, I disagree with you, but I want you to know I really care about what you think.

莱尼·拉奇茨基（Lenny Rachitsky）：对于那些想以自己的方式学习擅长这一点的人来说，我从历史学家那里学到的几件事以及你谈论这件事的方式是，一是有一种热情，我不同意你的观点，但我想让你知道我真的很关心你的想法。

So there's an energy of like, please tell me what I'm missing.

所以有一种能量，请告诉我我错过了什么。

There's also this assumption that a lot of disagreement is rooted in, we just have different information, so tell me what I'm missing.

还有一种假设是，很多分歧都是根源于，我们只是有不同的信息，所以告诉我我错过了什么。

Can you talk a bit about just how to, what you've learned about actually do this well?

您能谈谈您所学到的如何真正做到这一点吗？

Ami Vora: Yeah, I mean, I think the hard part is just sublimating your ego a little bit and saying it's more important to get to the outcome than to be right.

Ami Vora：是的，我的意思是，我认为困难的部分就是稍微升华你的自我，并说获得结果比正确更重要。

And I think all of growth is a battle with yourself, but this is one of the hardest ones because we all want to be right, we all want to protect ourselves and it served us, many of us for so long to be right.

我认为所有的成长都是与自己的战斗，但这是最困难的之一，因为我们都想保持正确，我们都想保护自己，这对我们很多人来说都是正确的，这对我们很有帮助。

I just try to think about the feedback loop of, I think all of life is feedback loops, so I just started to think about the feedback loop I'm creating of like, I was curious about something.

我只是尝试思考反馈循环，我认为所有的生活都是反馈循环，所以我开始思考我正在创建的反馈循环，我对某些事情感到好奇。

I learned something new, we got for a better outcome.

我学到了一些新东西，我们得到了更好的结果。

Probably the other person felt better as well as I felt better.

可能对方感觉更好了，我也感觉更好了。

It's all positive feedback and you do that a couple of times and the positive feedback far outweighs the desire to be right because now we're more right, we're more right together.

这都是积极的反馈，你这样做了几次，积极的反馈远远超过了对正确的渴望，因为现在我们更正确了，我们在一起更正确了。

And so just building that as a practice of just noticing how much better things can get when you can be open to them, has been really fun.

因此，将其作为一种实践，注意当你对事物持开放态度时，事情会变得多么好，这真的很有趣。

Lenny Rachitsky: What do you think of this phrase that he used that he remembers?

Lenny Rachitsky：你觉得他记得的这句话怎么样？

Is that a phrase that you find useful?

您认为这句话有用吗？

Just fascinating, you have to tell me more why you think that.

太有趣了，你必须告诉我更多你为什么这么想。

Ami Vora: I do think that is a word that I say a lot.

Ami Vora：我确实认为这是我经常说的一个词。

I do say that a lot, because it's true, it's fascinating that someone to look at the same movie that I was looking at and come away with a totally different understanding of the plot.

我确实说过很多次，因为这是真的，有人看我正在看的同一部电影并对情节有完全不同的理解，这是很有趣的。

I could sit in the same meeting as other people and they would leave with just a different retelling of what happened, and that to me is fascinating.

我可以和其他人坐在同一个会议上，他们离开时会以不同的方式重述所发生的事情，这对我来说很有趣。

Isn't that surprising, that we can all see the same, what we think are the same facts and walk away with a totally different narrative?

我们都看到相同的、我们认为相同的事实，但却得到完全不同的叙述，这难道不令人惊讶吗？

And when you really go deep into that and you just understand how people see the world, and that is helpful.

当你真正深入了解这一点时，你就会了解人们如何看待世界，这很有帮助。

I'm curious about things, I like to know more things, and so that just helps me know more things.

我对事物感到好奇，我喜欢了解更多事物，因此这可以帮助我了解更多事物。

Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like the hardest part of this for people is you hear someone say something, say, okay, so our mutual friend, Dan Hockenmaier, he's in a meeting and he just says something that you are just like, no, because he's got influence.

Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得对人们来说最困难的部分是你听到有人说一些话，说，好吧，所以我们共同的朋友丹·霍肯迈尔（Dan Hockenmaier）在开会，他只是说了一些你喜欢的东西，不，因为他有影响力。

He's a big deal at Faire.

他在 Faire 是个大人物。

Most people have this visceral reaction of like, oh no, I really don't think that's a good idea.

大多数人的本能反应是，哦不，我真的不认为这是一个好主意。

Is there something you've learned about controlling that bodily reaction of like, oh, and then just being positive about it?

您是否学到了一些关于控制身体反应（例如，哦，然后对此保持积极态度）的知识？

Ami Vora: Yeah, I do think it is just that feedback loop.

Ami Vora：是的，我确实认为这就是反馈循环。

It's not like I don't have the visceral reaction, it's just that instead of interpreting it as this is a visceral reaction, I got to shut something down, it's like, this is a visceral reaction and it's a chance to learn more.

这并不是说我没有本能反应，只是我不能把它解释为这是一种本能反应，而是必须关闭一些东西，就像，这是一种本能反应，这是一个了解更多的机会。

Just reinterpreting some of the feelings in ways that are more about opening than about closing stuff down.

只是以更多地开放而不是封闭的方式重新诠释一些感受。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it, so it's kind of like a thinking you do of like, okay, hey, let me frame this and think about this .

Lenny Rachitsky：明白了，所以这有点像你的想法，好吧，嘿，让我框架一下并思考一下。

Ami Vora: For me the most important thing is just taking a pause.

Ami Vora：对我来说，最重要的就是暂停一下。

I think when you just take a pause, your body calms down, your mind gets a chance to breathe a little bit, and then your response is going to be better, but you got to take the pause because the immediate visceral reaction, is not always...

我认为当你暂停一下时，你的身体会平静下来，你的思想有机会呼吸一下，然后你的反应会更好，但你必须暂停一下，因为立即的本能反应并不总是......

It's going to be primal, it's going to be protective.

这将是原始的，它将是保护性的。

It's just when you take a pause you're like, this is all fine, let's just learn.

只是当你停下来的时候，你会想，这一切都很好，让我们学习吧。

Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like more people are going to start using this phrase, fascinating.

Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得越来越多的人会开始使用这个短语，令人着迷。

Ami Vora: It's kind of my tagline.

Ami Vora：这是我的口号。

There were a few years where I had to be careful about not saying it because whenever I said it, people would be like, she disagrees.

有几年我必须小心不要说出来，因为每当我说出来时，人们都会说，她不同意。

So I've had to use a thesaurus and expand my words I use.

所以我不得不使用同义词库并扩展我使用的单词。

Lenny Rachitsky: No, that's such a good word.

Lenny Rachitsky：不，这是一个很好的词。

Maybe we'll make that the title of this episode.

也许我们会把它作为本集的标题。

Lenny Rachitsky: What a great title that would be.

Lenny Rachitsky：这将是一个多么棒的标题啊。

So we've been talking a bit about the bodily reaction to stuff and our lizard brain almost, reacting to things.

所以我们一直在谈论身体对事物的反应以及我们的蜥蜴大脑对事物的反应。

It reminds me of this metaphor that you called the dinosaur brain and how it applies to product reviews.

这让我想起了你称之为恐龙大脑的比喻以及它如何应用于产品评论。

Talk about what that is.

谈谈那是什么。

Ami Vora: Okay, so a lot of people on my team, they're coming in to do product reviews and they're worried about it.

Ami Vora：好的，我团队中的很多人都来做产品评论，他们对此感到担心。

They're stressed out, they don't exactly know what to show, and the normal temptation is just to show as much information as possible because that way you come in and you think, hey, the people in this room are super smart.

他们压力很大，他们不知道要展示什么，通常的诱惑就是展示尽可能多的信息，因为这样你进来就会想，嘿，这个房间里的人都超级聪明。

I'll show them the information, they will come to the right conclusions.

我会向他们展示信息，他们会得出正确的结论。

They'll probably make a better decision than I'm going to make.

他们可能会做出比我更好的决定。

So my job is to catalog the information and present it.

所以我的工作就是对信息进行分类并呈现。

Ami Vora: And one of the first things that I talk to people about is, okay, for the purposes of this conversation, I'm going to put myself in the capitally executive bucket because that makes what I'm about to say less offensive.

阿米·沃拉：我与人们谈论的第一件事是，好吧，为了这次谈话的目的，我将把自己放在最重要的行政桶中，因为这会让我要说的话不那么冒犯。

Assume that executives have a little tiny dinosaur brain.

假设高管们有一个小小的恐龙大脑。

We all have a little brontosaurus brain and we can really only hold three facts at the same time.

我们都有一个小小的雷龙大脑，但我们实际上只能同时掌握三个事实。

We will never be able to go deep in the way that you are able to do on everything that crosses our desk.

我们永远无法像您那样深入地处理我们办公桌上的所有事情。

And so the best service you can do is actually do the work of making a recommendation.

因此，你能做的最好的服务实际上就是做出推荐。

That's the way we're going to be complimentary.

这就是我们要互相称赞的方式。

The breadth that I normally have to look across means that I'm going to be better at things like pattern matching or giving you more context or telling you stuff that's happening in the company or the industry.

我通常需要考虑的广度意味着我会更擅长诸如模式匹配或为您提供更多背景信息或告诉您公司或行业中正在发生的事情。

But what I'm not going to be better at is looking at all the information that you looked at and coming up with a meaningful outcome.

但我不会更擅长的是查看您查看的所有信息并得出有意义的结果。

That's what you're going to do and my little dinosaur brain is going to be like, okay, that sounds like a very reasonable pattern, I've seen other patterns that look like this.

这就是你要做的，我的小恐龙大脑会说，好吧，这听起来是一个非常合理的模式，我见过其他类似的模式。

Okay, that sounds like an outcome, however, it conflicts with this outcome over here.

好吧，这听起来像是一个结果，但是，它与这里的结果相冲突。

I can tell you about that.

我可以告诉你这一点。

Does that make sense?

这有道理吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, and I love that you put yourself in that bucket.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我喜欢你把自己放在那个桶里。

You have a dinosaur brain also, it's not other people.

你也有恐龙大脑，而不是其他人。

Ami Vora: It's a pretty bad, bad look, but it's really true.

Ami Vora：看起来很糟糕，但这是真的。

As you get more breadth, you are less and less able to go deep on everything that deserves going deep and you just end up doing a different service than the people on your team, and recognizing that as complimentary has been really helpful.

随着你的广度变得越来越广，你越来越无法深入到所有值得深入的事情，你最终只会提供与你团队中的人不同的服务，并且认识到这一点是免费的，这真的很有帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: You have this phrase, my manager owns context, I own the recommendation.

Lenny Rachitsky：你有这样一句话，我的经理拥有背景，我拥有推荐。

Kind of along the same lines?

有点类似？

Ami Vora: Exactly, very similar.

Ami Vora：非常非常相似。

And I think the thing that was helpful for me there is that really unlocked what I was looking for from my managers because otherwise I wanted them to be exactly like me.

我认为对我有帮助的是，它真正释放了我从经理那里寻找的东西，因为否则我希望他们和我一模一样。

If I assume that I need to bring them information and then they would come to the same conclusion that I would come to, that's very narrow.

如果我假设我需要向他们提供信息，然后他们会得出与我相同的结论，那就太狭隘了。

They have to be able to look at the exact same information and process it in the same way and come out with the same idea.

他们必须能够查看完全相同的信息并以相同的方式处理它并得出相同的想法。

Whereas if what they're doing is complimentary to me, then I can learn from everyone.

然而，如果他们所做的事情对我来说是值得称赞的，那么我就可以向每个人学习。

They're going to just have a different view, they're going to have new information that I don't have, and it gives me a lot more space to take accountability.

他们会有不同的观点，他们会有我没有的新信息，这给了我更多的空间来承担责任。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there any other advice that you could share along these lines of just product reviews?

Lenny Rachitsky：除了产品评论之外，您还有其他建议可以分享吗？

So, the big takeaway here is just keep it simple and have a recommendation.

所以，这里最重要的一点就是保持简单并提出建议。

Ami Vora: Keep it simple, have a recommendation.

Ami Vora：保持简单，有一个建议。

I also think that, I think we misuse product reviews sometimes as ways to get decisions and actually, they should be ways to calibrate on principles.

我还认为，我认为我们有时会滥用产品评论作为做出决策的方式，实际上，它们应该是根据原则进行校准的方式。

So what you don't want is to come to a product review for every single that you want to make.

因此，您不希望对您想要制作的每一个产品进行产品审查。

Instead, what you want is to come to a product review with one decision, but the goal of that decision is to walk out with principles about how to make these decisions in the future so that you don't have to come to product review, but you still have this consistent and coherent product that you're building.

相反，你想要的是带着一个决定来进行产品审查，但该决定的目标是走出有关如何在未来做出这些决定的原则，这样你就不必进行产品审查，但你仍然拥有你正在构建的这个一致且连贯的产品。

Ami Vora: And so I think when you flip the frame of reviews to being less about, okay, I'm going to bring this information to an exec, my manager, whoever, and they're going to decide every piece, you're not actually building that much more capacity in the system.

Ami Vora：所以我认为，当你将评论框架转变为更少关注时，好吧，我会将这些信息带给高管，我的经理，无论是谁，他们将决定每一个部分，你实际上并没有在系统中建立更多的能力。

You're getting fast decision making, but you're not changing who can make really good decisions.

你可以快速做出决策，但你并没有改变谁可以做出真正好的决策。

And I think you always want to change the org to constantly make better decisions, and a way to do that is when you bring these sorts of questions, what you talk about is, why did you make this decision?

我认为你总是想改变组织以不断做出更好的决策，而做到这一点的一种方法是，当你提出这些类型的问题时，你谈论的是，你为什么做出这个决定？

What are the trade-offs you have in mind?

您考虑的权衡是什么？

Who are you optimizing for?

你在为谁优化？

What timeline are you thinking about?

您在考虑什么时间表？

What's the risk level we're willing to tolerate?

我们愿意承受的风险水平是多少？

And then you don't have to come back.

然后你就不用回来了。

You have enough information that you can take those principles and run with them.

您拥有足够的信息，可以采用这些原则并遵循它们。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there a framework or a process you use for product reviews that might be helpful for people to hear?

Lenny Rachitsky：您用于产品评论的框架或流程是否可能对人们的聆听有所帮助？

Just like a agenda or a way of thinking about just how to set up a product review for success?

就像一个议程或一种思考如何成功建立产品评论的方式？

Because a lot of people are trying to set these up at their companies and they're like, I don't know if we're doing this optimally.

因为很多人都试图在他们的公司设置这些，他们会想，我不知道我们是否做得最好。

Ami Vora: Yeah, I think everyone's got...

Ami Vora：是的，我想每个人都有......

I think there's so many different takes on frameworks.

我认为对于框架有很多不同的看法。

I don't have a single system.

我没有单一系统。

I mean, actually I think Boz has written about a bunch of this, and I probably most agree with him.

我的意思是，实际上我认为博兹已经写了很多这样的文章，而且我可能最同意他的观点。

Where there's different kinds of product reviews, it's like, what are you trying to solve?

如果有不同类型的产品评论，那么你想解决什么问题？

What's the timeline on which you're thinking about for these?

您考虑这些的时间表是什么？

Is it a philosophy?

这是一种哲学吗？

Is it a strategic shift?

这是战略转变吗？

Is it a day-to-day product decision?

这是日常产品决策吗？

And then keeping it extremely short and pointed and then making sure you walk away with principles, not answers.

然后保持它非常简短和尖锐，然后确保你带着原则而不是答案离开。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think there's a lot of nuance and importance there of what you just said, which is start with the problem you're solving.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为您刚才所说的有很多细微差别和重要性，这是从您要解决的问题开始的。

What are we trying to do here?

我们在这里想做什么？

And the timeline, I think that's also really useful and important for people to hear.

我认为时间表对于人们来说也非常有用和重要。

Ami Vora: I think the temptation is always to err toward writing more, and what I always really recommend people do is write whatever you need to write and then cut out almost all of it.

Ami Vora：我认为人们总是会犯更多的错误，而我总是建议人们做的就是写下你需要写的任何东西，然后删掉几乎所有的内容。

What you really want to bring to any forum, whether it's a product review or a written inform or anything else, is the minimal amount of information that you need to make a clean recommendation because then you are forced to be opinionated.

你真正想带给任何论坛的，无论是产品评论、书面信息还是其他任何东西，都是你需要做出明确推荐的最少信息，因为那样你就被迫固执己见。

Otherwise, the opinion can get lost in all of this information.

否则，意见可能会迷失在所有这些信息中。

You can hide behind, well, all of these analyses seem to suggest, and instead you should probably just say, looked at all the data, there's three analyses that suggest this.

你可以躲在后面，好吧，所有这些分析似乎都表明了这一点，而你可能应该只是说，查看所有数据，有三项分析表明了这一点。

There's one that suggests that, we think that one is inaccurate or worth taking the risk on.

有人认为，我们认为这是不准确的或值得冒险的。

Let's go.

我们走吧。

Any objections?

有异议吗？

Let me know.

让我知道。

Any new context?

有什么新的背景吗？

Let me know.

让我知道。

That really forces you to deeply understand and take an opinion on the material.

这确实迫使您深入理解材料并对其发表意见。

Lenny Rachitsky: Final question, who do you like to invite to these product reviews and your thoughts, rules, policy?

Lenny Rachitsky：最后一个问题，您想邀请谁来参加这些产品评论以及您的想法、规则和政策？

Ami Vora: Yeah, I mean I do think that usually fewer people is better.

Ami Vora：是的，我的意思是我确实认为通常人越少越好。

It leads to a sense of being informal and that is really useful because it lowers the bar on how complete or strong these conversations are and I'd rather have a less formal conversation faster than a formal conversation and lose three weeks in the process when we could have been building.

它会带来一种非正式的感觉，这非常有用，因为它降低了这些对话的完整性或强度的标准，我宁愿比正式对话更快地进行一次不太正式的对话，并且在我们本可以构建的过程中浪费三个星期的时间。

I think it needs to be cross-functional.

我认为它需要跨职能。

I think one of the things you want is cross-functional accountability.

我认为你想要的事情之一是跨职能问责制。

So we want it cross-functional at the leadership level and cross-functional at the team presenting level.

因此，我们希望它在领导层面上是跨职能的，在团队展示层面上是跨职能的。

And I think those are normally the groups.

我认为这些通常是团体。

Ami Vora: I think the thing that gets hard is you often cut out the middle, where if it's a working team presenting to the senior leaders on something important, it's really hard because it means people's managers are not in the room and can't help the conversation or other things.

Ami Vora：我认为最困难的是你经常会被切断中间部分，如果是一个工作团队向高级领导者介绍一些重要的事情，那真的很困难，因为这意味着人们的经理不在房间里，无法帮助进行对话或其他事情。

And so in order to do that, you have to really have a bunch of implicit trust inside the team that everyone will get the context later, that everyone's going to be kind to everyone else and you don't need a ton of air cover, and that the managers trust their team to present in the best possible way.

因此，为了做到这一点，你必须在团队内部真正拥有大量隐含的信任，每个人都会在以后了解情况，每个人都会善待其他人，你不需要大量的空中掩护，并且经理相信他们的团队会以最好的方式呈现。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is always a stressful place for a manager to be, where their success is riding in that meeting and they're not there and they-

Lenny Rachitsky：对于经理来说，这总是一个充满压力的地方，他们的成功取决于那次会议，而他们却不在那里，而且他们-

Ami Vora: It's so stressful, it's so stressful.

Ami Vora：压力太大了，压力太大了。

I think anything you do to make it less stressful is useful.

我认为任何可以减轻压力的事情都是有用的。

But then there've also been times in my career where I would keep the room itself small, but because we were all trying to calibrate on specific principles, I would record or broadcast the reading to anyone who wanted to see it, just so they could all see the principles by which we were decision-making and get calibrated on that.

但在我的职业生涯中，也曾有过这样的情况：我会把房间本身保持得较小，但因为我们都在努力根据具体原则进行校准，所以我会将阅读内容录制或广播给任何想看的人，这样他们都可以看到我们决策的原则并据此进行校准。

Lenny Rachitsky: So through your career you've transitioned from being the person pitching the products and being reviewed to the person reviewing and being on the other side.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以在你的职业生涯中，你已经从推销产品和接受审查的人转变为审查和站在另一边的人。

Is there anything being on this side of it that you think is helpful for people earlier in their career to know about that experience, from your angle now?

从你现在的角度来看，你认为这方面有什么东西对职业生涯早期的人了解这段经历有帮助吗？

Ami Vora: I mean, I think for what it's worth, I think I still do a fair amount of product pitching in the past few years because there's always someone else to convince.

Ami Vora：我的意思是，我认为无论其价值如何，我认为在过去几年中我仍然进行了大量的产品推介，因为总有其他人可以说服。

Ami Vora: Especially if you want to do something dramatically different.

Ami Vora：特别是如果你想做一些截然不同的事情。

Really, I think the biggest service for people who are starting out a little earlier is that point around bringing the recommendation, really having the opinion and standing behind it with conviction and doing what they need to do to build that conviction for themselves.

确实，我认为对于那些起步较早的人来说，最大的服务就是提出建议，真正有意见并坚定地支持它，并做他们需要做的事情来为自己建立这种信念。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

You've done this a number of times already in this conversation, and so I want to spend a little time here, which is using metaphors and imagery to make your point and get people to understand what you're trying to say.

在这次谈话中你已经这样做过很多次了，所以我想在这里花一点时间，即使用隐喻和图像来表达你的观点，让人们理解你想说的内容。

So you have this code of putting on the coat of the job and this dinosaur brain, and so someone told me that this is just a skill you have where you use metaphor and imagery to rally a team, get your point across, get people to understand what you're trying to say.

因此，你有穿上工作外衣和恐龙大脑的代码，所以有人告诉我，这只是你所拥有的一种技能，你可以使用隐喻和图像来团结团队，表达你的观点，让人们理解你想说的内容。

There's also this metaphor, someone told me I need to ask you about the hill climb metaphor.

还有这个比喻，有人告诉我我需要问你关于爬山比喻的事。

Does that ring a bell?

这是否敲响了警钟？

Ami Vora: For me, the hill climb is all about the difference between the local optimum and a global optimum.

Ami Vora：对我来说，爬山就是关于局部最优和全局最优之间的差异。

That sounds very abstract, but I think a lot of the time when we're doing our job, when we're doing life stuff, whatever you're doing, you try to just get better and better and you optimize your current system and then you feel really good about it, and that is great.

这听起来很抽象，但我认为很多时候，当我们在做我们的工作时，当我们在做生活中的事情时，无论你在做什么，你都会尝试变得越来越好，优化你当前的系统，然后你会感觉非常好，这很棒。

You're standing on top of the hill, you're looking down, you can see the, I don't know, rolling hills, the sheep, the grass, whatever.

你站在山顶，往下看，你可以看到，我不知道，连绵起伏的山丘，羊群，草地，等等。

But then way off from the distance you can see a mountain, one that's even higher than you can't even see the top of it, and you have to decide, are you going to take the risk of climbing down your hill, crossing an unknown chasm, and then climbing back up, just to get to the same level you started at with more climbing to do to get to that summit?

但在远处，你可以看到一座山，一座比你甚至看不到山顶还要高的山，你必须决定，你是否要冒险爬下山，穿过一个未知的深渊，然后再爬回来，只是为了达到你开始时的水平，还需要更多的攀登才能到达山顶？

And that is really hard.

这真的很难。

Ami Vora: I'm thinking of things like, maybe the first time I saw this was like a lot of companies were really good at desktop and you could see the mobile mountain way out over there, but to get there you had to really make a lot of trade-offs in your core desktop business that you were not totally sure were going to pay off when you made it to the mobile mountain, and you had to do a ton of work.

Ami Vora：我在想这样的事情，也许我第一次看到这一点时，很多公司都非常擅长桌面，你可以看到移动山的路在那里，但要到达那里，你必须在核心桌面业务中真正做出很多权衡，当你进入移动山时，你并不完全确定是否会得到回报，而且你必须做大量的工作。

You had to fundamentally rewire a lot of what you're doing without a guarantee that you're going to get there.

你必须从根本上重新安排你正在做的很多事情，但不能保证你能达到目标。

I mean, you can see it in life when you think about new jobs or new moves or new relationships, anything that you think about.

我的意思是，当你想到新工作、新举动或新关系，任何你想到的事情时，你都可以在生活中看到它。

You are giving up something that is working pretty well without knowing whether you're going to make it to the top of that next mountain.

你正在放弃一些运行良好的东西，而不知道你是否能到达下一座山的顶峰。

And that's been really helpful to me just to place where I am on different things, where you get the inkling that there is a much better way to do this, there really is.

这对我来说真的很有帮助，只是让我在不同的事情上处于不同的位置，你会感觉到有更好的方法可以做到这一点，确实有。

Ami Vora: Is it going to be worth going down into the valley, climbing up, keeping climbing?

Ami Vora：值得下到山谷里，爬上去，继续爬吗？

Is that going to be worth it?

这值得吗？

Most of the time the answer is yes, but it's helpful for me to know, boy, this feels like a slog.

大多数时候答案是肯定的，但是知道这对我很有帮助，孩子，这感觉就像是一个艰难的过程。

It is supposed to?

应该是吗？

Because I'm still in the valley and the thing that gets me through the valley is remembering what the summit feels like.

因为我仍然在山谷中，而让我穿过山谷的就是记住山顶的感觉。

When you're on top of it and you're like, this is great, it was absolutely worth it.

当你达到顶峰时，你会想，这太棒了，这绝对值得。

My life is better in these ways, we're able to solve these problems in these ways.

我的生活通过这些方式变得更好，我们能够通过这些方式解决这些问题。

It was worth it.

这是值得的。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

It feels like a big value of the metaphor, which I love is that to set expectations, it's going to be really hard for a little bit or we will slow down what we're trying to do now, but the idea is there's a bigger hill and a bigger mountain.

这感觉就像这个比喻的一个很大的价值，我喜欢的是设定期望，这将是非常困难的一点，或者我们会放慢我们现在正在尝试做的事情，但这个想法是有一座更大的山和一座更大的山。

Ami Vora: It's a bigger hill and it's worth it.

Ami Vora：这是一座更大的山，而且值得。

Lenny Rachitsky: On this kind of broader idea of metaphors and imagery, is there something there that you've learned of just like, this works really well, I'm going to invest in becoming better at this, or is this something that's come natural to you?

Lenny Rachitsky：在这种更广泛的隐喻和意象概念上，你是否学到了一些东西，比如，这真的很好，我将投资在这方面做得更好，或者这对你来说是自然而然的事情吗？

Anything you can share about that skill and approach?

关于这项技能和方法，您有什么可以分享的吗？

Ami Vora: I think this one came from, I worked for a manager, his name was Eric Antino, and he was just a master of the metaphor and analogies.

Ami Vora：我认为这个来自，我为一位经理工作，他的名字叫埃里克·安蒂诺（Eric Antino），他只是隐喻和类比的大师。

And so whenever I would bring him something, he would be like, how is this product going to make you feel, and when is the last time that you felt this way?

所以每当我给他带来一些东西时，他都会问，这个产品会让你感觉如何，你最后一次有这种感觉是什么时候？

And you can say, oh, I felt this way when I was hanging with my friends in Dolores Park and he'd be like, cool, tell me what it feels like, why that's the analogy, what ramifications come out of that?

你可以说，哦，当我和朋友们在多洛雷斯公园闲逛时，我就有这种感觉，他会说，很酷，告诉我那是什么感觉，为什么是这样的类比，会产生什么后果？

Ami Vora: And one thing I like to do is try to build an emulator for different people in my head, because I've just had the good fortune of working with an amazing number of very different leaders, and so he's one of the people I tried to build an emulator for where I'd be like, okay, I see this thing.

Ami Vora：我喜欢做的一件事就是尝试在我的脑海中为不同的人构建一个模拟器，因为我刚刚有幸与数量惊人的截然不同的领导者一起工作，所以他是我尝试构建模拟器的人之一，我会想，好吧，我看到了这个东西。

I don't know how to solve this problem.

我不知道如何解决这个问题。

How would Eric describe this?

埃里克会如何描述这一点？

I've tried to build one for Boz, which is all about principle of decision making and principle of trade-offs.

我试图为博兹建立一个，它是关于决策原则和权衡原则的。

There's a few other people where I'm like, I don't know how to solve this problem.

还有一些人跟我一样，我不知道如何解决这个问题。

Can I load this other person into my head and how would they approach it?

我可以将这个人载入我的脑海中吗？他们会如何对待它？

And that gives me a fresh lens on it.

这让我对它有了新的认识。

Ami Vora: And I really like metaphors and analogies because I think especially as you scale a team, narrative becomes increasingly important.

Ami Vora：我真的很喜欢隐喻和类比，因为我认为尤其是当你扩大团队规模时，叙事变得越来越重要。

Narrative can carry so much weight and water where otherwise it's similar to the product review point, where either you can tell everybody exactly what to do at every point or you can create a story that we all agree on.

叙事可以承载如此多的分量和水分，否则它与产品评论点类似，您可以在每个点上准确地告诉每个人该做什么，或者您可以创建一个我们都同意的故事。

And when we all agree on that story, people just know better what to do.

当我们都同意这个故事时，人们就会更好地知道该怎么做。

If we all agree that the feeling of something should be, I'm sitting in Dolores Park with my friends on a sunny Saturday.

如果我们都同意某些东西应该有的感觉，那么在一个阳光明媚的星期六，我和我的朋友们坐在多洛雷斯公园。

You know what the iconography, the designers know what iconography should look like.

你知道图像是什么，设计师也知道图像应该是什么样子。

You know what the communication and join pattern should look like.

您知道通信和连接模式应该是什么样子。

You're not going to build something cold and corporate, you're not going to build something strobe light, you're not going to build something flashy, but you don't have to go and make all those individual decisions.

你不会建造一些冷酷的、公司化的东西，你不会建造一些频闪灯，你不会建造一些华而不实的东西，但你不必去做出所有这些个人决定。

You can buy into the same story and then people will just naturally build something that feels more consistent.

你可以相信同一个故事，然后人们就会自然而然地构建出感觉更一致的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is such a powerful and important skill.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一项非常强大且重要的技能。

Is there an example that comes to mind where you did this really well, say at WhatsApp or Facebook of the story that carried a lot of water for you and the team?

是否有一个你在这方面做得非常好的例子，比如在 WhatsApp 或 Facebook 上为你和团队带来很多水的故事？

Ami Vora: Yeah, I mean I think the product metaphor we arrived at for WhatsApp was face-to-face communication.

Ami Vora：是的，我的意思是我认为我们对 WhatsApp 的产品比喻是面对面的沟通。

Our goal there was to make it so that every person in the world could feel connected to the people they cared most about, even when they were separate, even they're distant geographically for whatever reason, we were always going to be apart from the people you cared about.

我们的目标是让世界上的每个人都能感受到与他们最关心的人的联系，即使他们分开，即使他们由于任何原因在地理上相距遥远，我们总是会与你关心的人分开。

And we really had to build something that would work for literally everyone in the world.

我们确实必须打造出真正适合世界上每个人的东西。

People who are carrying these high-end devices in western markets who are very tech comfortable and savvy, and people in the low end markets who were carrying these low end devices, they weren't that familiar with technology, it was maybe their first time online.

在西方市场携带这些高端设备的人对技术非常熟悉和精通，而在低端市场携带这些低端设备的人则不太熟悉技术，这可能是他们第一次上网。

We had to build something that worked for everyone.

我们必须打造适合每个人的东西。

Ami Vora: And the most universal form of communication is face-to-face.

Ami Vora：最普遍的沟通形式是面对面。

When you talk to someone face-to-face, you're not thinking, how do I present?

当你与某人面对面交谈时，你不会想，我该如何表达？

What tool do I have to learn?

我需要学习什么工具？

You just open your mouth and words come out, and that's the feeling that we wanted to create.

你只要张开嘴，就会说出话来，这就是我们想要创造的感觉。

And that involved a lot of the app stepping back from communication, creating spaces that felt really intimate so people wouldn't have to think to themselves, what kind of space am I in?

这涉及到应用程序从交流中退出，创造出感觉非常亲密的空间，这样人们就不必自己思考，我处于什么样的空间？

They could immediately map where they were in the app to the, okay, I'm sitting around in my kitchen table and people are joining and leaving calls just like they're walking in and out of my living room, but it is a family space and the family is there.

他们可以立即将他们在应用程序中的位置映射到，好吧，我坐在厨房的桌子上，人们正在加入和留下电话，就像他们进出我的客厅一样，但这是一个家庭空间，家人都在那里。

Or, in one-on-one disappearing messages, you're like, cool, this is my close friend.

或者，在一对一的消失消息中，你会说，酷，这是我的好朋友。

We don't need to keep track of everything that we're saying.

我们不需要记录我们所说的一切。

We're here for a little bit of banter, a little bit of relationship, a little bit of quick, what's your wifi password and stuff, and whatever's really important, that's what we'll hold onto and the rest is just day-to-day, normal intimacy.

我们来这里是为了一点点玩笑，一点点关系，一点点快感，你的wifi密码是什么之类的，无论什么真正重要的事情，我们都会坚持下去，剩下的只是日常的、正常的亲密关系。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is super interesting.

Lenny Rachitsky：这非常有趣。

WhatsApp, one of the main differentiators and benefits is it's super fast.

WhatsApp 的主要区别和优势之一是它的速度超快。

And I see completely how it connects this idea of you're just like, ideas, we want you to feel like you're talking to someone.

我完全明白它是如何将你的想法联系起来的，我们希望你感觉你正在和某人交谈。

Ami Vora: And it's all really a small thing.

Ami Vora：这确实是一件小事。

It's like a typing indicator is like someone who's about to take a breath, give them a second to talk, the two check marks lighting up or someone's face lighting up when they hear you, it's just a recognition of being heard.

这就像打字指示器就像有人要喘口气，给他们一秒钟说话的时间，两个复选标记亮起或者某人的脸在听到你的声音时亮起，这只是对被听到的认可。

These are all super small things, but I think they add up to a feeling of being there.

这些都是非常小的事情，但我认为它们加起来就是一种身临其境的感觉。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is super interesting.

Lenny Rachitsky：这非常有趣。

So I love this very tactical piece of advice that you just shared of just when you're trying to come up with a metaphor or analogy, think about what you want your users to feel when you're using the product and when else have they felt that same feeling?

所以我喜欢你刚刚分享的这条非常战术性的建议，当你试图想出一个比喻或类比时，想想你希望用户在使用产品时感受到什么，以及他们在什么时候有过同样的感觉？

So interesting.

太有趣了。

And then this other point you made of making this emulator of a person in your head.

然后你提出的另一点是在你的脑海中制作一个人的模拟器。

Ami Vora: I mean, it sounds a little wild now that I think about it.

Ami Vora：我的意思是，现在想想这听起来有点疯狂。

Ami Vora: I get very bored a lot.

Ami Vora：我经常感到很无聊。

It's another way to make sure meetings are really interesting where you're like, okay, let me see what that person is going to say next.

这是确保会议真正有趣的另一种方式，你可以说，好吧，让我看看那个人接下来会说什么。

Let me put myself in their shoes.

让我设身处地为他们着想。

Let me think about what they're reacting to and why they're going to think that and how they're going to see the world.

让我想想他们的反应是什么、为什么他们会这么想以及他们将如何看待这个世界。

And again, it just gives me more toolkits because it means when I'm stumped on something, I can be like, what would Rob Goldman say?

再说一遍，它只是给了我更多的工具包，因为这意味着当我遇到困难时，我可能会想，罗布·戈德曼会怎么说？

He'd say, look at the dashboard.

他会说，看看仪表板。

Have I looked at the dashboard?

我看过仪表板了吗？

No. Okay, let me go look at the dashboard.

不，好吧，让我看看仪表板。

You can load up these different skillsets that people have been so generous with sharing with me.

你可以加载人们慷慨地与我分享的这些不同的技能。

Lenny Rachitsky: What would be the Ami emulator?

Lenny Rachitsky：Ami 模拟器是什么？

What are people thinking when they loaded it?

人们加载时在想什么？

Ami Vora: Fascinating, probably the number one, no joke.

Ami Vora：令人着迷，可能是第一，不是开玩笑。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there an emulator you most often come back to that you find most useful in just in your day-to-day?

Lenny Rachitsky：有没有一款模拟器是您在日常生活中最常使用且觉得最有用的？

Who's the person that like, oh yeah-

喜欢的人是谁啊啊啊——

Ami Vora: I think those are the three.

Ami Vora：我想就是这三个。

I think it is like Antino's story.

我认为这就像安蒂诺的故事。

Story, metaphor, analogy creation.

故事、隐喻、类比创作。

I think it's like Boz's, if we played this out, what principles are we using?

我想这就像博兹的，如果我们玩这个，我们使用什么原则？

And if we kept on using those principles, what would happen?

如果我们继续使用这些原则，会发生什么？

And it is Rob Goldman, who's an amazing metrics growth product leader being like, look at the dashboard.

这是 Rob Goldman，他是一位令人惊叹的指标增长产品领导者，看看仪表板。

I mean, look at the dashboard, which is a great central rooting part of my life.

我的意思是，看看仪表板，它是我生活中重要的核心部分。

Lenny Rachitsky: This was so fascinating, fascinating.

Lenny Rachitsky：这太令人着迷了，令人着迷。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love this topic of just metaphors and stories and visions and things like that.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个充满隐喻、故事、愿景和类似事物的话题。

It's something that a lot of people are wanting to get better at.

这是很多人都想做得更好的事情。

Is there another example, per chance, that you could share of maybe using a metaphor to rally team, get things done?

您是否可以分享另一个例子，也许可以用一个比喻来团结团队，把事情做好？

Ami Vora: I mean, I think taking a sub part of WhatsApp or when we talk about video calling.

Ami Vora：我的意思是，我认为在 WhatsApp 或我们谈论视频通话时可以考虑一下。

I really, one the metaphors was sitting around in your family room when you think about how to make calls work, where when you're sitting in a family room, you're not scheduling it, you're not, I don't know, having this cold corporate feeling, the way you do with a conference where there's heavyweight interactions, and instead there's just, you can join and leave.

我真的，当你坐在你的家庭房间里思考如何让电话发挥作用时，当你坐在家庭房间里时，你没有安排它，你没有，我不知道，有这种冷酷的公司感觉，就像你在一场有重量级互动的会议上所做的那样，相反，你可以加入和离开。

It feels lightweight, it feels like the space exists even when you're not there.

它感觉很轻，即使你不在那里，也感觉空间存在。

And so just creating things like joinable calls, like that feeling of people popping in and just paying attention to whoever's there and letting them leave, but the call can flow on without a super heavyweight action that everyone needs to take.

因此，只需创建可加入的呼叫之类的东西，就像人们突然加入并只关注在那里的人并让他们离开的感觉一样，但呼叫可以继续进行，而无需每个人都需要采取的超重量级操作。

I think that was another one where we were just able to agree on the feeling and then you know what to build.

我认为这是另一种情况，我们能够在感觉上达成一致，然后你就知道要构建什么。

Lenny Rachitsky: I was just using WhatsApp to do video call with my mom.

Lenny Rachitsky：我只是用 WhatsApp 和我妈妈进行视频通话。

They were traveling to Italy and so-

他们要去意大利旅行，所以——

Ami Vora: That's great, that's exactly .

Ami Vora：那太好了，正是这样。

I experienced it, it felt great.: Let me go in a slightly different direction.

我经历过，感觉很棒：让我朝稍微不同的方向走。

One of my favorite posts of yours is called execution beats strategy every time, and I think another way you phrase it is, execution eats strategy for breakfast.

我最喜欢的你的一篇文章被称为执行力每次都胜过策略，我认为你的另一种表达方式是，执行力把策略当早餐。

I think you put that somewhere.

我想你把它放在某个地方了。

I'd love to hear about this because I completely agree.

我很想听听这个，因为我完全同意。

I think a lot of people obsess with strategy and vision and got to get this right and forget that most of the work is execution.

我认为很多人都痴迷于战略和愿景，并且必须正确对待这一点，而忘记了大部分工作都是执行。

So yeah, I'd love to hear just your take and insight here.

所以，是的，我很想听听您的看法和见解。

Ami Vora: Yeah, I don't know if I coined execution eats strategy for breakfast, I think a lot of things eat other things for breakfast, but I'm a believer.

Ami Vora：是的，我不知道我是否创造了“执行早餐吃策略”，我认为很多东西早餐都吃其他东西，但我是一个信徒。

I do think execution eats strategy for breakfast and that's something we used to say a lot at Meta.

我确实认为执行力把战略当早餐，这是我们在 Meta 经常说的一句话。

It was just the most important part and I was well-trained in that.

这只是最重要的部分，我在这方面受过良好的训练。

That was one of the key lessons that I learned there, and it's because when you have...

这是我在那里学到的重要教训之一，因为当你……

Look, strategy is super fun.

瞧，策略超级有趣。

You get to think about all this pie in the sky stuff.

你得想想所有这些天上掉馅饼的事情。

You get to think about if the world operated in rational patterns and you could predict the future, what is going to be the second and third order effect?

你要思考，如果世界以理性模式运行，并且你可以预测未来，那么二阶和三阶效应会是什么？

You get to use your brain in a really fun, philosophical way, but customers don't care.

你可以以一种非常有趣、富有哲理的方式运用你的大脑，但顾客并不关心。

Customers don't care about your fancy strategies and your five-year plan.

客户并不关心你花哨的策略和五年计划。

They care about the product that's in their hands.

他们关心自己手中的产品。

And so anything that distracts you from thinking about the product in your hands I think, or maybe worse, takes you away from solving customer's problems today, I think is a distraction.

因此，我认为，任何让您分心思考手中产品的事情，或者更糟的是，让您无法解决今天的客户问题，我认为都是一种干扰。

Ami Vora: And I think one of the things that you learn is if you have great strategy, perfect strategy but poor execution, you don't win because your strategy never makes it to the market.

Ami Vora：我认为你学到的一件事是，如果你有伟大的战略，完美的战略，但执行力差，你就不会获胜，因为你的战略永远不会进入市场。

And what's even worse is that you have learned nothing.

更糟糕的是你什么也没学到。

You don't know whether it was your strategy that was wrong or whether it was your execution that was wrong, all you know is you didn't win.

你不知道是你的策略错了，还是你的执行错了，你只知道你没有赢。

Whereas when you have a pretty good strategy, a good enough strategy, you're in the right direction and you have perfect execution, you still don't win immediately, but you know your execution was great.

然而，当你有一个相当好的策略，一个足够好的策略，你的方向是正确的，并且你有完美的执行力时，你仍然不会立即获胜，但你知道你的执行力很棒。

So then you learn, what do you need to do to improve your strategy?

然后你就会知道，你需要做什么来改进你的策略？

You've got the execution machine, you go back, you update your strategy, you relaunch, and you keep on doing it until your strategy is perfect and then you do win.

你有了执行机器，你回去，你更新你的策略，你重新启动，你继续这样做，直到你的策略完美，然后你就赢了。

And that's the lesson I repeatedly learned.

这就是我反复吸取的教训。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is this advice a reaction to what you said, where people, PMs let's say, are just like, I want to work on strategy, we got to spend all this time, get the strategy nailed, and it's just like, okay, we also need to execute and that's maybe even more important.

Lenny Rachitsky：这个建议是对你所说的话的反应吗？人们，比如产品经理，就像，我想制定战略，我们必须花所有这些时间，把战略确定下来，就像，好吧，我们还需要执行，这可能更重要。

Ami Vora: Yeah, I do think it's very glamorous to work on strategy.

Ami Vora：是的，我确实认为从事战略工作非常迷人。

It's so fun.

太有趣了。

It's so fun to have the word strategy in your .

在您的 .txt 文件中包含“策略”一词真是太有趣了。

I don't know, we've built a mythology around strategy being the most important thing.

我不知道，我们围绕战略是最重要的事情建立了一个神话。

And execution is not glamorous, it is not like white-boarding by yourself and pointing to things and coming out with the grand vision.

执行力并不光鲜亮丽，它不像自己在白板上指出事物并提出宏伟的愿景。

It is the nuts and bolts and sometimes boring, sometimes grind it out work of like, you got to bring the donuts, you got to look at the dashboards, you got to rewrite the spec.

这是具体的细节，有时很无聊，有时又很辛苦，比如，你必须带上甜甜圈，你必须查看仪表板，你必须重写规范。

You got to just do a bunch of the grinding, but that is what leads to the customer's outcomes.

你只需要进行大量的打磨，但这就是导致客户结果的原因。

That is what the customer is eventually going to feel.

这就是客户最终会感受到的。

They're never going to see the whiteboard, they're going to see that someone took the time to fix this bug.

他们永远不会看到白板，他们会看到有人花时间修复这个错误。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by User Testing, transform how you build products and experiences with User Testing.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由用户测试为您带来，通过用户测试改变您构建产品和体验的方式。

Get fast feedback throughout the development process so that you can build the right thing the first time, make better decisions that lead to better business outcomes.

在整个开发过程中获得快速反馈，以便您可以第一次构建正确的产品，做出更好的决策，从而带来更好的业务成果。

Lenny Rachitsky: Companies are being asked to do more with less.

Lenny Rachitsky：公司被要求用更少的资源做更多的事情。

They need to move quickly to build experiences that meet changing customer expectations and do so faster than ever, all while minimizing risk and costly rework.

他们需要迅速采取行动，打造满足不断变化的客户期望的体验，并且比以往更快地做到这一点，同时最大限度地降低风险和昂贵的返工。

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通过用户测试，您在体验研究方面拥有了值得信赖的合作伙伴。

They empower user research, product and design teams to make higher confidence decisions with human insights.

它们使用户研究、产品和设计团队能够利用人类洞察力做出更有信心的决策。

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立即访问 usertesting.com/lenny 了解更多信息。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is this advice you give to your PMs on your teams?

Lenny Rachitsky：这是您给团队 PM 的建议吗？

I guess, how do you think about this when they're trying to move up the ranks, become better product managers?

我想，当他们试图晋升、成为更好的产品经理时，你如何看待这个问题？

Is this just a common thing that you often share, like yeah, strategy is going to be amazing, important.

这只是你经常分享的一件常见的事情吗，是的，策略将是惊人的、重要的。

You got to get good at it, but also make sure this is going great.

你必须擅长于此，但也要确保一切进展顺利。

Ami Vora: Yeah, I think about it a little bit in terms of proportion of time you should expect to spend.

Ami Vora：是的，我稍微考虑了一下你应该花费的时间比例。

So I mean, there's no point next being on that strategy, you can't have a bad strategy.

所以我的意思是，接下来的策略没有任何意义，你不可能有一个糟糕的策略。

So you should spend some time, maybe it's like 20% of your time, but the bulk of your time should be confirming that strategy actually makes sense for the customers.

因此，您应该花一些时间，也许大约 20% 的时间，但您的大部分时间应该用于确认该策略对客户确实有意义。

Getting it out there, building the machine to constantly make it better, as opposed to a perfect strategy.

将其投入使用，构建机器以不断使其变得更好，而不是完美的策略。

You go away, you build it for a year, you ship it, the market has changed.

你离开，你花了一年的时间构建它，你发布它，市场已经改变了。

Customers have changed, their needs have changed, competition, just the whole landscape has changed and you probably could have solved those problems more easily had you headed in the right direction, but done it with more ongoing customer feedback.

客户发生了变化，他们的需求发生了变化，竞争也发生了变化，整个格局都发生了变化，如果你朝着正确的方向前进，你可能可以更轻松地解决这些问题，但要通过更多持续的客户反馈来完成。

Lenny Rachitsky: In terms of this proportion, I imagine what you see is as you get more senior, more of your time spent on strategy, less time on execution, right?

Lenny Rachitsky：就这个比例而言，我想你会看到随着你的职位越来越高，你花在战略上的时间会越来越多，花在执行上的时间会越来越少，对吗？

Ami Vora: I don't 100% know that that's true.

Ami Vora：我并不 100% 知道这是真的。

I think again, even at high levels, maybe the strategic directions become more important to get mostly right, but I think still most of your time is making sure they can make it to market.

我再次认为，即使在高层，也许战略方向变得更加重要，以确保大部分正确，但我认为您的大部分时间仍然是确保它们能够进入市场。

I think you should still be spending your time understanding what's slowing people down and unblocking it.

我认为你仍然应该花时间了解是什么让人们放慢速度并解除障碍。

Understanding, how is the market changing?

了解，市场正在发生怎样的变化？

Understanding what the broad customer feedback is, just constantly improving the system that you are building.

了解广泛的客户反馈是什么，不断改进您正在构建的系统。

I think that's, I mean, how much time can you spend thinking about the future, as opposed to actually trying to create it.

我认为，我的意思是，你可以花多少时间思考未来，而不是实际尝试创造未来。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is really interesting advice because I think most people imagine as you get more senior, I'm going to have more time thinking about vision and strategy, not have to be in the weeds building things.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常有趣的建议，因为我认为大多数人都会想象，当你的职位越来越高时，我将有更多的时间思考愿景和战略，而不必在杂草中构建东西。

And I love this point you're making of even as a senior exec, you're still, it's executing in a different way, but it's still execution.

我喜欢你所提出的这一点，即使作为一名高级管理人员，你仍然以不同的方式执行，但仍然是执行。

Ami Vora: A different way, yeah.

Ami Vora：是的，另一种方式。

You're focusing on the execution of the system a little bit more, but you got to stay connected, I think, to the customer and to what you're bringing to them.

你会更多地关注系统的执行，但我认为你必须与客户以及你为他们带来的东西保持联系。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

Obviously, strategy is also very important.

显然，策略也非常重要。

You have this great quote that I'm going to read here.

我将在这里读到这句话。

"For strategy to be useful, it actually has to change our behavior as a team to create better customer outcomes." Can you talk about that?

“为了使策略发挥作用，实际上必须改变我们作为一个团队的行为，以创造更好的客户成果。”你能谈谈吗？

Ami Vora: Yeah.

阿米·沃拉：是的。

I mean, I think again, some of the joy of strategy is the philosophy and excitement of thinking about all the long-term stuff that will happen, but I try to always come back to, what's going to change for the customer?

我的意思是，我再次认为，战略的一些乐趣在于思考所有将要发生的长期事情的哲学和兴奋，但我总是尝试回到，将为客户带来什么改变？

If we have all of these conversations and we come out with this shiny five-year plan, but then we change nothing about the products that we're building or how we are building, what was the point of that exercise?

如果我们进行了所有这些对话，并制定了这个闪亮的五年计划，但我们对我们正在构建的产品或我们构建的方式没有任何改变，那么这项工作的意义何在？

It made us feel good, and there's something to making us feel good.

它让我们感觉良好，而且有一些东西可以让我们感觉良好。

That is good, it's important for teams to feel good and connected and this is a good exercise for that, but it's so much more powerful when it's an exercise that translates into us doing something differently, whether that's prioritizing different products, whether that's changing our portfolio allocation, like moving people to the things we think are most important now versus things that are going to be less important right now.

这很好，对团队来说感觉良好和相互联系很重要，这是一个很好的练习，但当它转化为我们做不同的事情时，它的作用就更大了，无论是优先考虑不同的产品，无论是改变我们的投资组合分配，比如让人们去做我们认为现在最重要的事情，而不是现在不那么重要的事情。

What's the change, or coming out with a strategy that'll align people because we have the story, we have the narrative, we have the sequence.

有什么变化，或者提出一个可以让人们团结起来的策略，因为我们有故事，我们有叙述，我们有顺序。

What's going to change for our customers as a result of this strategy exercise?

这项战略实施会给我们的客户带来什么变化？

Lenny Rachitsky: Many people want to get better at strategy.

Lenny Rachitsky：很多人都希望在战略方面做得更好。

Often their performance feedback is become more strategic, think better about strategy.

通常，他们的绩效反馈变得更具战略性，更好地考虑战略。

What has helped you become a better strategic thinker?

是什么帮助您成为更好的战略思想家？

Is it just doing it?

难道只是做着做着吗？

Is it a person that influenced you heavily?

是一个对你影响很大的人吗？

Is it a book?

它是一本书吗？

What has helped you and what do you often recommend to people to get better at this skill?

什么对你有帮助？你经常向人们推荐什么来提高这项技能？

Ami Vora: I think I got that same feedback quite a lot, actually, of needing to think bigger and be more visionary, etc. And I still do, frankly, actually, there's moments where I retrench way too far into execution and worry a little less about long-term strategy.

Ami Vora：我想我收到了很多同样的反馈，实际上，需要考虑得更远大，更有远见，等等。坦率地说，实际上，有时我会过度缩减执行力度，而不那么担心长期战略。

So it's definitely my bias still.

所以这绝对是我的偏见。

Ami Vora: The biggest thing that held me back from talking about strategy was I didn't feel confident that I knew enough to declare a strategy.

Ami Vora：阻碍我谈论战略的最大因素是我对自己的了解不足以宣布战略缺乏信心。

It was actually almost like a self-confidence, imposter syndrome thing, where there were people who could just say, I know how the world is going to develop in the next five years, and let me tell you, here's where we're going to be, this is the dot on the map.

这实际上几乎就像一种自信、冒名顶替综合症，有人可以说，我知道未来五年世界将如何发展，让我告诉你，这就是我们要去的地方，这就是地图上的点。

And I was always like, how could anything could happen?

我总是想，怎么可能发生什么事呢？

Who would I be to say I know how the world's going to develop and here's where we're heading?

我能说我知道世界将如何发展以及我们将走向何方？

Ami Vora: And so for me, a lot of it was actually learning the things that made me feel confident in my own opinion.

Ami Vora：对我来说，实际上学到的很多东西让我对自己的观点充满信心。

And there's a bunch of things that do make me feel confident in my opinion.

有很多事情确实让我对自己的观点充满信心。

When I talk to specific customers and I feel like I can build an emulator for them, like a customer on my shoulder where I can say, oh, I talked to this person working in this job, here's what they would say if I showed them this product or this strategy.

当我与特定客户交谈时，我觉得我可以为他们构建一个模拟器，就像我肩膀上的客户一样，我可以说，哦，我与从事这项工作的这个人交谈过，如果我向他们展示这个产品或这个策略，他们会这么说。

So, I think talking to customers is a big unlock for me and feeling like I have unique knowledge of the customer.

所以，我认为与客户交谈对我来说是一个很大的解锁，感觉我对客户有独特的了解。

I think working through different product iterations of, if we thought this was the right outcome, what would it really look like from a product perspective or a product portfolio in three to five years?

我认为通过不同的产品迭代，如果我们认为这是正确的结果，那么从产品角度或三到五年内的产品组合来看，它到底会是什么样子？

And which of those seems right or rational or it will go the way I think the world goes.

其中哪一个看起来是正确的或合理的，或者它将按照我认为世界的方式发展。

I think asking for other opinions.

我想还是问问其他意见吧。

Sometimes I run surveys to the leadership team where I'm just like, what percentage of our revenue is going to come from small businesses versus big businesses in three years?

有时我会对领导团队进行调查，我的想法是，三年后我们的收入中小企业与大企业的收入比例是多少？

And if we all agree on that topic, we should just take it as the truth and we should just fill it.

如果我们都同意这个话题，我们就应该把它当作事实，然后填写它。

If we disagree, then we should talk about it and we should talk about the strategic ramifications if we chose one path or the other path.

如果我们不同意，那么我们应该讨论它，如果我们选择一条道路或另一条道路，我们应该讨论战略后果。

Ami Vora: So for me, it was getting more comfortable having an opinion, honestly, about how the world was going to go, and also feeling comfortable that we would be able to change it when we learned that maybe that wasn't exactly right.

Ami Vora：所以对我来说，老实说，对世界将如何发展有自己的看法，而且当我们得知也许这并不完全正确时，我们能够改变它，这让我感到更舒服。

We would have the machine, the execution machine behind it to try it out and then change and iterate and improve with customer feedback.

我们将拥有机器、其背后的执行机器来进行尝试，然后根据客户反馈进行更改、迭代和改进。

Lenny Rachitsky: At which point in your career was this overcoming this fear and uncertainty?

Lenny Rachitsky：在您职业生涯的哪个阶段，您克服了这种恐惧和不确定性？

Was it sometime within Facebook?

是在 Facebook 内部的某个时候吗？

Ami Vora: It was sometime within Facebook.

Ami Vora：那是在 Facebook 的某个时候。

It was really when I was stepping into the bigger ads jobs, getting to be Head of Product for Facebook ads.

那时我确实开始从事更大的广告工作，成为 Facebook 广告产品主管。

I got feedback, I got a lot of feedback over the course of my career and some of the stacking of feedback was basically like, you could be the smartest person in the room, but it doesn't matter if people don't like you, which is very complicated feedback and I wouldn't give that feedback to anyone else, but I took it very seriously.

我得到了反馈，在我的职业生涯中我得到了很多反馈，其中一些反馈基本上是这样的，你可能是房间里最聪明的人，但如果人们不喜欢你也没关系，这是非常复杂的反馈，我不会把这些反馈给其他任何人，但我非常认真地对待它。

It was coming from so many different places, it was coming from people I'm really trusted.

它来自很多不同的地方，来自我真正信任的人。

And so I went out of my way to be more likable, which for me ended up being shrinking myself a little bit and not being so aggressive and not being so opinionated, being more unobjectionable.

所以我不遗余力地让自己变得更讨人喜欢，这对我来说最终让自己变得更小一点，不再那么咄咄逼人，不再那么固执己见，变得更不会令人反感。

Ami Vora: And the weird part is that it worked for a long time.

Ami Vora：奇怪的是它持续了很长时间。

People were more likely to work with me, they were more likely to say nice things.

人们更有可能和我一起工作，他们更有可能说好话。

I mean, I take this to extremes.

我的意思是，我把这个推向极端。

I wore earth tones for two years because I was just like, I got to fade back a little bit.

我穿了两年大地色，因为我觉得，我得褪去一点。

And then at some point I actually had to do a leadership job and my team was like, well, what do you think?

然后在某个时候，我实际上必须做领导工作，我的团队就像，嗯，你觉得怎么样？

What's your opinion?

你有什么意见？

And I was like, you've been telling me not to have an opinion for so long.

我当时想，这么长时间以来你一直告诉我不要发表意见。

And so it took a little bit of work to get back to, oh yeah, I have a lot of opinions, I have a lot of thoughts.

所以我花了一些功夫才回到，哦，是的，我有很多意见，我有很多想法。

It is okay for me to express.

我表达一下就可以了。

It is needed, my team needs me to have these opinions and thoughts and be a leader who can take ownership and be visible.

这是必要的，我的团队需要我有这些意见和想法，并成为一个可以承担责任并引人注目的领导者。

Lenny Rachitsky: Thanks for sharing that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：感谢您分享这一点。

Do you think that was the right approach, going and indexing far to the other end and then realizing that maybe that's too far, or do you think you would've done things differently looking back?

您认为这是正确的方法吗？先走到另一端并建立索引，然后意识到这可能太远了，或者您认为回过头来看，您会采取不同的做法吗？

Ami Vora: Yeah, it's one of my Roman empires.

Ami Vora：是的，这是我的罗马帝国之一。

I think about this every so often, way too much, I think.

我经常思考这个问题，我想太多了。

Especially because I talked to other senior women who received similar feedback and chose not to act on it or did act on it, and what happened to their paths were different.

特别是因为我与其他收到类似反馈的高级女性交谈过，她们选择不采取行动或确实采取行动，而她们的道路发生的事情是不同的。

I think where I landed is I wouldn't give that feedback to someone else.

我认为我的落脚点是我不会向其他人提供反馈。

And the way I do give that feedback, actually, because I think there is a lot of really useful information in that.

实际上，我提供反馈的方式是因为我认为其中有很多真正有用的信息。

The way I do give that feedback is, you do need to be able to work with a broader range of people and the way to do that is to expand your tool sets.

我给出反馈的方式是，你确实需要能够与更广泛的人合作，而做到这一点的方法就是扩展你的工具集。

You're not going to make yourself smaller, you're not going to be any less of who you are, but you are going to build new tools, new keys to unlock new different kinds of doors.

你不会让自己变得更小，你不会让自己变得更小，但你会建造新的工具、新的钥匙来打开新的不同类型的门。

And that is only going to make you bigger and more powerful and more expansive.

这只会让你变得更大、更强大、更广阔。

But the end outcome is the same, is that you can work with more different styles of people, more different styles of problems.

但最终的结果是一样的，就是你可以与更多不同风格的人一起工作，解决更多不同风格的问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that framing.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个框架。

There's an episode that's going to come out before this episode with this professor from Stanford, Jeffrey Pfeffer, who teaches a class called The Path to Power, which is how to become powerful in the world.

在本集之前有一集是由斯坦福大学教授杰弗里·普费弗（Jeffrey Pfeffer）主持的，他教授一门名为“权力之路”的课程，该课程讲述如何在世界上变得强大。

And he actually has a big lesson that many people hate hearing, which is, you don't need to be authentic in the workplace, what you're trying to achieve, you're trying to achieve stuff and you can do...

他实际上有一个很多人讨厌听到的重要教训，那就是，你不需要在工作场所表现得真实，你想要实现的目标，你正在努力实现的东西，你可以做到......

You need to use tools that you need to use to achieve the thing you want to achieve.

你需要使用你需要使用的工具来实现你想要实现的目标。

So sometimes don't be exactly who you are and act in a slightly different way, which is basically what you're describing.

因此，有时不要完全做你自己，并以稍微不同的方式行事，这基本上就是你所描述的。

Ami Vora: More tools.

Ami Vora：更多工具。

I think that's a theme that's coming up, is just like, I'm all about more lenses, more keys, more tools in general because why not?

我认为这是一个即将出现的主题，就像，我喜欢更多的镜头、更多的按键、更多的工具，为什么不呢？

Why not have access to more different styles of things?

为什么不接触更多不同风格的东西呢？

Lenny Rachitsky: Something that you were talking about subtly is the being a woman in tech and being a female leader.

Lenny Rachitsky：你微妙地谈论的是科技领域的女性和女性领导者。

I imagine you've gone through some stuff that isn't what something men would've gone through.

我想你经历过一些男人不会经历的事情。

Is there anything there that you want to share or anything you've learned about just being really successful as a woman in tech?

您有什么想分享的，或者您在作为一名科技女性取得真正成功方面学到了什么吗？

Ami Vora: I think we've talked through some of them.

Ami Vora：我想我们已经讨论过其中的一些问题。

I think one, you get a different style of feedback and a lot of the ways to interpret that feedback.

我认为，第一，你会得到不同风格的反馈以及很多解释该反馈的方法。

I think to this day, I get feedback that is about walking a very narrow tightrope where not only do you have to change a bunch of things and do a bunch of things that are important, you have to make people feel a certain way about how you do them and the ways that they want you to make you feel are diametrically opposite.

我想直到今天，我得到的反馈都是在走一条非常狭窄的钢丝，你不仅必须改变一堆事情，做一堆重要的事情，你还必须让人们对你做事的方式有某种感觉，而他们希望你感觉的方式是截然相反的。

Some people are going to be like, be more directive so that way everyone knows your thing.

有些人会说，更具指导性，这样每个人都知道你的事情。

Some people are going to say be less directive so people can come to their own conclusions.

有些人会说少一点指导性，这样人们就可以得出自己的结论。

Some people are going to say move faster because there's always more you can do.

有些人会说行动得更快，因为总有更多事情可以做。

Some people are going to say move less fast because otherwise you're going to end up steamrolling people.

有些人会说动作不要太快，否则你最终会压垮别人。

Ami Vora: And a lot of it is personal, there's a bunch research about how women get a lot more personal feedback that is less about the content of their role and more about their style, I think that is still true and there's often a kernel of truth in it.

Ami Vora：其中很多都是个人的，有很多研究是关于女性如何获得更多的个人反馈，而不是关于她们的角色内容，更多的是关于她们的风格，我认为这仍然是正确的，而且其中往往有一个真理的核心。

For me, this is forever work.

对我来说，这是永远的工作。

I do have biases toward execution and being directive and things like that, but I think learning how to interpret and respond to feedback has been a really important point for me and making my choices of, just because I'm getting feedback doesn't mean I immediately need to respond to all of it.

我确实对执行和指导之类的事情有偏见，但我认为学习如何解释和回应反馈对我来说非常重要，做出我的选择，仅仅因为我收到反馈并不意味着我需要立即回应所有反馈。

There's a step in between where I can choose, is this feedback I want to take action on in this exact way?

在我可以选择的中间有一个步骤，我是否想以这种确切的方式对此反馈采取行动？

Am I going to look for more themes, take action in a different way, or am I going to say this is who I am and I understand the trade-offs, I'm going to do a better job of giving people context on the decisions I'm making and why I'm choosing these trade-offs.

我是要寻找更多主题，以不同的方式采取行动，还是要说这就是我，我理解其中的权衡，我会更好地向人们提供我正在做出的决定的背景信息以及我选择这些权衡的原因。

But actually this is part of how I want to operate and I'm going to keep on operating.

但实际上这是我想要的经营方式的一部分，我将继续经营下去。

Ami Vora: And then I think we just give women weird advice.

Ami Vora：然后我认为我们只是给女性一些奇怪的建议。

Here's a hot take.

这是一个热门观点。

I think we tell women things like, you need to find a mentor and you need to find a sponsor, and that's just another set of hoops that we have that we tell women to jump through that I don't think we tell other parts of the population to jump through.

我认为我们告诉女性，你需要找到一位导师，你需要找到一个赞助商，这只是我们告诉女性要跳过的另一套铁环，我不认为我们会告诉其他部分的人要跳过。

I think we tell women to unlock your future success, you've got to find somebody who has made all the same life decisions you have and who you look up to and relate to, but who also had an hour every month to be an oracle to tell you all the things you do in your life.

我认为我们告诉女性，要解锁未来的成功，你必须找到一个和你做出了所有相同人生决定的人，一个你尊敬的人，一个与你有联系的人，但他每个月有一个小时的时间作为神谕，告诉你你一生中所做的所有事情。

And it feels like yet another burden where you're like, I don't know how to do that.

这感觉就像是另一种负担，我不知道该怎么做。

Ami Vora: I had the extreme generosity of so many wonderful leaders who helped me on my way, but I didn't feel like I had this mentor and for a while it was just like, oh man, if I only had a mentor, I would know how to do all of this stuff and it felt like another weight that I needed to carry, which I didn't.

Ami Vora：有很多出色的领导者对我非常慷慨，他们在我的道路上帮助了我，但我感觉自己没有这位导师，有一段时间我就想，天哪，如果我只有一位导师，我就会知道如何做所有这些事情，这感觉像是我需要承担的另一个重担，但我没有。

I had everything I needed, people were so kind and generous, but I didn't recognize it that way because we talk about it differently.

我拥有我需要的一切，人们是如此善良和慷慨，但我并没有意识到这一点，因为我们谈论的方式不同。

Lenny Rachitsky: Thank you for sharing all that.

Lenny Rachitsky：感谢您分享这一切。

I wasn't planning on going in this direction, but this is such important advice for say, young women that are just getting started in the same product.

我本来不打算朝这个方向发展，但对于刚开始使用同一产品的年轻女性来说，这是非常重要的建议。

Is there any advice you'd want to share to help them get to be the next Ami?

您有什么建议想分享来帮助他们成为下一个 Ami 吗？

Ami Vora: Oh, I mean number one, no next Ami, they're going to be their next themselves.

Ami Vora：哦，我的意思是第一，不是下一个阿米，他们自己将成为下一个。

That is maybe the most important thing, is everyone will only tell you their own story.

这也许是最重要的事情，每个人只会告诉你他们自己的故事。

That's all anyone can do, but the thing that I tell people is, don't dampen who you are and your strengths, just continue expanding.

这是任何人都可以做的，但我告诉人们的是，不要削弱你的身份和你的优势，只是继续扩展。

Whenever you run into a problem, just add more to the things that you can do, the tools that you have, the way you can express yourself.

每当你遇到问题时，只需添加更多你可以做的事情、你拥有的工具以及你表达自己的方式。

Just keep on adding and growing and don't shrink yourself, ever.

只要继续增加和成长，永远不要缩小自己。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

I want to move to a different topic.

我想换个话题。

There's a few things I definitely wanted to touch on while we had our time together.

当我们共度时光时，我确实想谈谈一些事情。

One is that I hear, now this is going to be a total tangent, but I think it's really important and I'm excited to talk about it.

一是我听说，现在这将完全偏离主题，但我认为这非常重要，我很高兴谈论它。

I hear you're really good at setting goals and aligning incentives really well for teams.

我听说你非常擅长为团队设定目标和调整激励措施。

One of your colleagues told me you're best in class at building product orgs and figuring out how product orgs can best work with other teams.

你的一位同事告诉我，你在构建产品组织和弄清楚产品组织如何与其他团队最好地合作方面是同类中最好的。

I'm curious if there's any tricks or lessons you can share here about what you've learned about how to do this well.

我很好奇您是否可以在这里分享一些关于如何做好这件事的技巧或经验教训。

Ami Vora: Yeah, I mean I think one thing is to try to decouple all the things we're trying to do.

Ami Vora：是的，我的意思是，我认为一件事就是尝试将我们正在尝试做的所有事情脱钩。

Sometimes when you give people direction, you're like, okay, everybody just go get revenue or everybody just go get GMV.

有时候，当你给人们指导时，你会想，好吧，每个人都去获取收入，或者每个人都去获取 GMV。

And it seems obvious because that's the thing you have to do as a company, but there's only a few places where you are guaranteed to get that and it's measurable and you can do it.

这似乎是显而易见的，因为这是作为一家公司必须做的事情，但只有少数地方可以保证你做到这一点，而且它是可衡量的，你可以做到。

And that leads to what I call toddler soccer, where everybody just runs to the same surface or the same customer set or the same exact product where you can do this and it's measurable and you end up, everyone's tripping on each other, everyone's trying, nobody really gets contact on the ball, there's no coordination.

这就导致了我所说的幼儿足球，每个人都跑到相同的表面或相同的客户群或相同的产品上，你可以做到这一点，并且它是可测量的，最终，每个人​​都互相绊倒，每个人都在努力，没有人真正接触到球，没有协调。

I have three kids, I've watched a lot of toddlers play soccer.

我有三个孩子，我看过很多小孩踢足球。

, it's a very fresh, very fresh metaphor.

，这是一个非常新鲜非常新鲜的比喻。

Ami Vora: And instead, one of the things I like to do is just detangle, okay, as a company, let's think about our customers.

Ami Vora：相反，我喜欢做的一件事就是理清思路，好吧，作为一家公司，让我们考虑一下我们的客户。

Let's think about all the things they're going to need in their journey.

让我们想想他们在旅途中需要的所有东西。

Let's think about how we will know how we will match our own metrics to customer success.

让我们考虑一下如何知道如何将我们自己的指标与客户的成功相匹配。

Let's play the entire field.

让我们打满全场吧。

What would it look like if we could detangle it so that every team we had internally had a different goal that ladders into a goal framework that's actually the thing that we need to do to solve the full customer impact?

如果我们能够理清它，以便我们内部的每个团队都有不同的目标，并逐步进入一个目标框架，这实际上是我们解决全面客户影响所需要做的事情，那会是什么样子？

And then you don't have the same swim lanes problem.

然后你就不会遇到同样的泳道问题。

You have plenty of room for people to make progress on their lanes.

你有足够的空间让人们在他们的车道上取得进步。

They all know how they fit into the bigger picture, and it just opens up a lot more growth for every team and it makes sure that we're solving the customer problem end to end.

他们都知道如何适应更大的前景，这只会为每个团队带来更多的成长，并确保我们能够端到端地解决客户问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there an example that you could share to make this even more concrete from say, WhatsApp or Facebook or Instagram or anything like that, where you can share some of these goals that you've like, oh, this worked out really well?

Lenny Rachitsky：您是否可以分享一个例子，让这一点更加具体，例如 WhatsApp、Facebook、Instagram 或类似的东西，您可以在其中分享您喜欢的一些目标，哦，这真的很好吗？

I know it's probably private information and partly-

我知道这可能是私人信息并且部分-

Ami Vora: It might be trickier.

Ami Vora：这可能会更棘手。

I mean, maybe going back to the GMV example.

我的意思是，也许回到 GMV 的例子。

Maybe instead of motivating everyone on GMV, you motivate them on GMV per surface and you divide up the surfaces, or maybe you motivate them on actually different goals that underlie.

也许你不是在 GMV 上激励每个人，而是在每个表面的 GMV 上激励他们，然后划分表面，或者你可能会在潜在的不同目标上激励他们。

When you think about GMV, what are all the various engagements, customer engagements that lead to GMV?

当您考虑 GMV 时，导致 GMV 的各种互动、客户互动是什么？

Can you goal on those input metrics, can you goal on number of people who visit, number of people who convert, number of people who reorder, number, etc?

你能以这些输入指标为目标吗？你能以访问人数、转化人数、重新订购人数、数量等为目标吗？

Rather than going strictly on the output.

而不是严格关注输出。

Lenny Rachitsky: So the core advice here is each team should have different goals that are part of this metrics tree that ladder up to revenue, GMV, something like that?

Lenny Rachitsky：所以这里的核心建议是每个团队应该有不同的目标，这些目标是衡量收入、GMV 等指标树的一部分？

Ami Vora: Whatever, yeah.

Ami Vora：无论如何，是的。

The thing that best matches the overall customer outcome that mirrors the company outcome as well.

最符合整体客户成果的事物也反映了公司的成果。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

And there's always this balance between it's actually the best metric versus it's something they can move and understand and it's easy to watch and it's movable and things like that, right?

在它实际上是最好的指标与他们可以移动和理解的东西之间总是存在这种平衡，它很容易观看，它是可移动的等等，对吗？

Ami Vora: Yeah, and you have to have faith that it is actually connected to that output metric.

Ami Vora：是的，你必须相信它实际上与输出指标相关。

You don't want to create a metric that's disconnected just to make a team feel good.

您不想仅仅为了让团队感觉良好而创建一个互不相关的指标。

It really does need to solve the customer problem and that's reflected in company's performance, but you can usually break it down into smaller pieces and I think that breaking down into smaller pieces and assigning those out to teams, that's really helpful.

它确实需要解决客户问题，这反映在公司的绩效中，但你通常可以将其分解为更小的部分，我认为分解为更小的部分并将其分配给团队，这非常有帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there anything else along these lines of things you've learned about helping teams work together and not play toddler soccer, beyond having different goals that all ladder up to the one that really matters?

Lenny Rachitsky：在帮助团队合作而不是踢幼儿足球方面，除了制定不同的目标并逐步实现真正重要的目标之外，您还学到了什么其他的东西吗？

Ami Vora: I think there's value in also acknowledging that teams are going to have different incentives.

Ami Vora：我认为承认团队将有不同的激励措施是有价值的。

Even inside a team like cross-functional teams on the same pod or whatever, are going to have different incentives, they're going to come in with different information, they're going to have disagreements.

即使在同一个 Pod 或其他类似的跨职能团队内部，也会有不同的激励措施，他们会带来不同的信息，他们会产生分歧。

And certainly, different teams inside a company or different pillars inside a company, different products inside, they're all going to have different incentives, and I think sometimes that feels like something is going wrong when people disagree, but actually, that's just a sign of healthy tension and knowledge.

当然，公司内部的不同团队或公司内部的不同支柱，内部不同的产品，他们都会有不同的激励措施，我认为有时当人们不同意时感觉出了问题，但实际上，这只是健康紧张和知识的标志。

Ami Vora: I think the thing that makes tension healthy is one, when you can acknowledge it and say, yeah, of course there's tension.

阿米·沃拉：我认为，让紧张变得健康的因素之一是，当你承认这一点并说，是的，当然存在紧张。

You're bringing different information than I'm bringing.

你带来的信息与我带来的不同。

We should be disagreeing.

我们应该不同意。

No one's a bad person, no one is coming in with poor intent.

没有人是坏人，没有人怀有恶意。

Everyone's doing the thing they are supposed to do and that is a useful thing to do.

每个人都在做他们应该做的事情，这是一件有用的事情。

And then you have to agree on an outcome that you're aiming for.

然后你们必须就你们想要的结果达成一致。

If you disagree on what the company outcome is or what the customer outcome is, then you've got some structural stuff you need to work out and normally you just have to escalate it, but if you agree on like, we're all trying to move this metric by changing this customer experience, then all you're doing is having a conversation about the best way to do that using the different information that everyone is bringing.

如果你不同意公司的结果是什么或客户的结果是什么，那么你需要解决一些结构性的问题，通常你只需要升级它，但如果你同意，我们都在试图通过改变客户体验来移动这个指标，那么你所做的就是使用每个人带来的不同信息来讨论实现这一目标的最佳方法。

And I think that's super important to just have as a rational, open, explicit discussion, as opposed to trying to hide it or pocket vetoing or something else.

我认为进行理性、开放、明确的讨论非常重要，而不是试图隐藏它或口袋否决或其他什么。

Because you assume that when someone disagrees with you that, I don't know, there's something emotional or wrong about it.

因为你认为当有人不同意你的观点时，我不知道，这其中有什么情绪化或错误的地方。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's a piece of advice I once heard from the Head of Product at Airbnb once where we were trying to find, reorg the business and try to figure out the best org and his advice and something he realized is, there's never the best org, there's just the best idea we have at the time with the here's the things we know are not going to be optimal about it and let's build processes around that.

Lenny Rachitsky：我曾经听过 Airbnb 产品主管的一条建议，当时我们试图寻找、重组业务并试图找出最好的组织，他的建议是，他意识到，永远没有最好的组织，只有我们当时拥有的最好的想法，但我们知道这些事情不会是最佳的，让我们围绕它构建流程。

Ami Vora: I think that's my take on leadership in general.

Ami Vora：我认为这就是我对领导力的总体看法。

Especially as you get more senior, you can only make bad decisions.

尤其是当你的职位越来越高时，你只能做出错误的决定。

At some point someone can bring you a problem, you can recognize a problem and you can solve it, and there's so much happiness in solving that and tying a bow around it.

在某些时候，有人可以给你带来一个问题，你可以认识到一个问题，你可以解决它，解决这个问题并在它周围打上蝴蝶结有很多快乐。

But as you get senior, the only problems you'll see are ones that are fundamentally unsolvable because otherwise, someone would've solved it before they got to you.

但当你变得更高级时，你会看到的唯一问题是那些根本上无法解决的问题，否则，有人会在找到你之前就解决了它。

And so all you're doing is choosing which branch of suboptimal you're going to put your name on and describing the principles you're using and the context and the fact that it's suboptimal, but it's still the best thing.

因此，您要做的就是选择您要命名的次优分支，并描述您正在使用的原则和上下文以及它是次优的事实，但它仍然是最好的事情。

I think that's a really hard thing, is just to recognize and acknowledge that increasingly people only see you do, make suboptimal decisions and from a distance they're just like, why is that person only making bad decisions?

我认为这是一件非常困难的事情，只是要认识到并承认越来越多的人只看到你做的事情，做出次优的决定，从远处他们就会想，为什么那个人只做出错误的决定？

And it's because those are your only options.

这是因为这些是你唯一的选择。

All you can do is choose the least bad, the best possible for the time, for the problem that's consistent that makes sense with the framework, and that's been a tough thing to learn too.

你所能做的就是选择最不坏的、当时可能最好的，对于与框架一致的问题，这也是一件很难学的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: You said somewhere that as you get more senior, you get worse at everything because the problems get harder.

Lenny Rachitsky：你曾在某处说过，随着你的职位越来越高，你在所有事情上都会变得更糟，因为问题变得越来越难。

Ami Vora: Yes, exactly.

阿米·沃拉：是的，完全正确。

I mean, it's a kind of dark view of leadership where yeah, you can't fully solve problems, you have to say no a lot people are unhappy with you.

我的意思是，这是一种对领导力的阴暗看法，是的，你无法完全解决问题，你必须说不，很多人对你不满意。

I thought as you get more senior, everyone listens to you and they like you and you could just say a thing and then it happens and that is not at all accurate.

我认为当你的职位越来越高时，每个人都会听你的，他们喜欢你，你可以只说一句话，然后事情就发生了，这是完全不准确的。

It really is, most of the decisions you make are not going to be perfect.

事实上，你做出的大多数决定都不会是完美的。

Ami Vora: And I think I'm all about just normalizing and acknowledging those hard truths because otherwise, I feel like I'm failing.

Ami Vora：我认为我只是要正常化并承认这些残酷的事实，否则我会觉得自己失败了。

And if I just know that something is normal that it's part of the job, then it's not me.

如果我只是知道某些事情是正常的，它是工作的一部分，那么它就不是我。

It's just like, okay, this is a fact of the job that I have to get accustomed to if I want to have this kind of impact.

就像，好吧，如果我想产生这种影响，这就是我必须习惯的工作事实。

And there's something about having the impact, being able to serve the customer, being able to be part of this team, there's something about it that is so worthwhile that it's worth being terrible at everything and being visibly terrible at everything because that is the best way that I have to have that kind of impact in the world.

产生影响力、能够为客户服务、能够成为这个团队的一员，这些都是非常有价值的，值得在所有事情上表现得很糟糕，而且在所有事情上都表现得很糟糕，因为这是我在世界上产生这种影响的最佳方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think this is really important for early ICPMs to hear because they see their CPO and founders making all these decisions and they're like, what the hell?

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这对于早期 ICPM 来说非常重要，因为他们看到 CPO 和创始人做出所有这些决定，他们会想，到底是什么？

That's a terrible idea, why are they doing this?

这是一个糟糕的主意，他们为什么要这样做？

What you're saying is just like it's the best...

你说的好像是最好的...

Options are limited and then-

选择是有限的，然后——

Lenny Rachitsky: ...

莱尼·拉奇茨基：……

nothing's going to be optimal.

一切都不会是最佳的。

Ami Vora: Yeah, no org is optimal.

Ami Vora：是的，没有哪个组织是最佳的。

It's definitely not.

绝对不是。

You can optimize for the people you have and you can optimize for the products you have, can optimize for the customers you have and you can optimize for the technology you have.

您可以针对您拥有的人员进行优化，您可以针对您拥有的产品进​​行优化，可以针对您拥有的客户进行优化，您可以针对您拥有的技术进行优化。

Those are the options that you have, and in every one of those you trade off everything else.

这些就是你所拥有的选择，在每一种选择中你都需要权衡其他一切。

And so you just have to know, there's not going to be a perfect where all of it works and that's okay.

所以你只需要知道，不会有一个完美的方法可以让一切都有效，但这没关系。

That is part of the fun of it.

这就是它的乐趣的一部分。

That's part of getting to do this work, is continuing to improve, but it's hard.

这是完成这项工作的一部分，持续改进，但这很困难。

It's hard when people, it's hard, especially when you want everyone to think you're so great at everything.

当人们在一起时，这很难，尤其是当你希望每个人都认为你在所有事情上都很出色时。

Lenny Rachitsky: This idea you mentioned of as a senior person solving people's problems, feeling really good, reminds me.

Lenny Rachitsky：你提到的作为一个资深人士解决人们的问题的想法，感觉真的很好，让我想起了。

Rolling to this, there's this Harvard Business Review article from the '70s or '80s or something about monkeys on your back.

说到这里，《哈佛商业评论》上有一篇 70 年代或 80 年代的文章，或者是关于你背上的猴子的文章。

Have you read this or heard of this?

您读过或听说过这个吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Where it's basically like as a manager, -

Lenny Rachitsky：基本上就像作为一名经理，-

Ami Vora: You're trying to get monkey off of your back on people's backs?

Ami Vora：你想把猴子从你背上赶到别人背上吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: People come to you, Ami, here's my monkey, please take it for me and feed it for me and take care of it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：人们来找你，阿米，这是我的猴子，请帮我拿走它，喂它，照顾它。

And your job as a leader is to keep the monkeys on people's backs and help them figure out how to feed this monkey themself.

作为领导者，你的工作就是让猴子骑在人们的背上，并帮助他们弄清楚如何自己喂养这只猴子。

Lenny Rachitsky: To get it off their back.

Lenny Rachitsky：让他们摆脱困境。

It's very visceral.

这是非常发自内心的。

I want to talk about Faire and your current role as a final section of our chat.

作为我们聊天的最后一部分，我想谈谈 Faire 和你目前的角色。

First of all, what was it like starting something completely new after 15 years at Meta at the various properties of Meta?

首先，在 Meta 工作了 15 年之后，在 Meta 的各种属性上开始全新的事物是什么感觉？

Ami Vora: Yeah, I mean, I was so lucky.

Ami Vora：是的，我是说，我很幸运。

I had such an amazing run at Meta.

我在 Meta 的表现非常出色。

I got to work with amazing leaders, truly great products.

我与出色的领导者和真正出色的产品一起工作。

And I came to Faire for the same reason that I've been anywhere, because I believe in the people and I believe in the mission.

我来到 Faire 的原因和我去过任何地方的原因一样，因为我相信这里的人民，也相信我们的使命。

A lot of my family in India is in wholesale and local retail, which is what Faire does, and so it was also a very personal thing for me too.

我在印度的很多家人都从事批发和当地零售业，这就是 Faire 所做的，所以这对我来说也是一件非常个人的事情。

I felt like I knew those customers.

我觉得我认识那些顾客。

I'm a huge fan of small businesses, I got to work with a bunch of them in previous jobs as well.

我是小企业的超级粉丝，我在之前的工作中也曾与其中一些小企业合作过。

Ami Vora: I would say coming to Faire, I mean, one of the things I always think about is that especially as you are more senior, ramping on anywhere feels terrible because you expect to be as good at your new job as you were when you left your last job, but you forget that at your last job, you were there for years, you had years to build up the vocabulary and the cultural context and the network and the product knowledge, and then you're stepping in somewhere where you know none of that, but you have the same expectations of yourself of being able to have an impact and improve things and help your team.

Ami Vora：我想说，来到 Faire，我的意思是，我一直在思考的一件事是，尤其是当你的资历更高时，在任何地方猛冲都感觉很糟糕，因为你期望在新工作中能像你离开上一份工作时一样出色，但你忘记了在上一份工作中，你在那里工作了很多年，你有很多年的时间来建立词汇、文化背景、网络和产品知识，然后你踏入了一个你对此一无所知的地方，但你有同样的期望你自己能够产生影响、改进事情并帮助你的团队。

And so I always just try to remind myself, it's going to take time and what's most important is not for me to try to come in and change everything immediately, but to learn enough to be able to change things like 60 or 90 or 120 days in the future.

所以我总是试图提醒自己，这需要时间，最重要的不是我尝试立即改变一切，而是学习足够的知识，以便能够在未来 60、90 或 120 天之内改变事情。

And so that breathing helps a little bit.

所以呼吸有一点帮助。

Ami Vora: It was also really interesting because Faire was entirely new to me.

Ami Vora：这也很有趣，因为 Faire 对我来说是全新的。

It was a new business model, it was a whole new set of people.

这是一种新的商业模式，是一群全新的人。

It was a whole new set of customer problems.

这是一系列全新的客户问题。

And so every interaction I just had to learn so much.

所以每次互动我都必须学到很多东西。

I had to learn, who is this person?

我必须了解，这个人是谁？

How do they see the world?

他们如何看待世界？

What's the problem they're talking to me about?

他们跟我谈论的问题是什么？

What's the customer impact, I think?

我认为对客户的影响是什么？

So it was just a dramatic learning curve, which I always really love.

所以这只是一个戏剧性的学习曲线，我一直非常喜欢。

Ami Vora: Maybe the last thing I'd say is, again, I was super lucky at Meta.

Ami Vora：也许我想说的最后一件事是，我在 Meta 非常幸运。

I think I always had this maybe deep-seated insecurity that maybe I was only good at Meta.

我想我一直有一种根深蒂固的不安全感，也许我只擅长 Meta。

Maybe there was something about that network of people and how great they were and how well I knew those products, and maybe I wouldn't be that successful somewhere without that scaffolding.

也许这个人际网络、他们的伟大以及我对这些产品的了解程度有关，如果没有这个脚手架，我可能不会在某个地方取得那么成功。

And so leaving and being able to go somewhere else and lead through change and a new place, a new customer set, a new business model, that's also been really, really affirming for me, honestly.

因此，离开并能够去其他地方并引领变革和新的地方、新的客户群、新的商业模式，老实说，这对我来说也是非常非常肯定的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Well, you have a lot of fans at Faire from the people I know there.

Lenny Rachitsky：嗯，Faire 有很多我认识的人的粉丝。

Lenny Rachitsky: And so clearly, things are going well, at least as far as I can tell.

Lenny Rachitsky：很明显，事情进展顺利，至少据我所知。

Something that I think is, Faire definitely has, and a lot of companies have, is a very product minded visionary founder.

我认为，Faire 确实是一位非常有产品意识、有远见的创始人，很多公司也都是这样。

And CPOs classically last a year or two, and then they're like, ah, this sucks.

CPO 通常会持续一两年，然后他们就会说，啊，这太糟糕了。

The founder just tells me what to do and what's the point of this role?

创始人只是告诉我要做什么以及这个角色的意义是什么？

And it's so frustrating.

这太令人沮丧了。

I'm curious just what you've learned about, at least so far, about working with someone like that as a CPO and not just being this middle person between what the founder wants to do with the team, this building.

我很好奇你学到了什么，至少到目前为止，关于作为 CPO 与这样的人一起工作，而不仅仅是作为创始人想要与团队、这栋大楼一起做的事情之间的中间人。

Ami Vora: Yeah, I mean, this is going to sound so naive, but I literally didn't know how important it was for me to have such a great relationship with the CEO, because I always had great relation, I was lucky, I had great relationships with a lot of people at my previous jobs.

Ami Vora：是的，我的意思是，这听起来很天真，但我真的不知道与首席执行官保持如此良好的关系对我来说有多重要，因为我一直保持着良好的关系，我很幸运，我在以前的工作中与很多人都有很好的关系。

I was like, oh, of course it's going to be fine, everyone's going to let me do what I want, whatever.

我当时想，哦，当然会好起来的，每个人都会让我做我想做的事，无论如何。

And I think I just got really lucky because Max is an amazing CEO, who's also super growth mindset and super open to talking over ideas, even when they involve a lot of change.

我认为我真的很幸运，因为马克斯是一位了不起的首席执行官，他也具有超级成长心态，并且非常愿意讨论想法，即使它们涉及很多变化。

Ami Vora: So when I was onboarding, one of the things I always like to do is write a list of observations.

Ami Vora：所以当我入职时，我总是喜欢做的一件事就是写一份观察清单。

I go out and talk to, I have one-on-ones with a lot of people, and I write, here's the themes that I'm hearing.

我出去和很多人交谈，我和很多人进行一对一的交流，然后我写作，这是我听到的主题。

Here's what's going well, here's what's not going well.

这是进展顺利的情况，这是进展不顺利的情况。

And that's a way for me to both share what I'm seeing and build some credibility and trust that way, but also for people to give me feedback and be like, oh, you're wrong about this, just so I can correct my starting point of knowledge.

这对我来说既可以分享我所看到的并以此方式建立一些可信度和信任，也可以让人们给我反馈，然后说，哦，你错了，这样我就可以纠正我的知识起点。

Ami Vora: And with Max, I also wrote a parallel document of hot takes.

Ami Vora：我还和 Max 一起写了一份热门话题的并行文档。

So once a quarter or so for the first year, I'd write a document that was just like, hey, for sake of provocation, if we wanted to fundamentally change a few things, here's ideas on what we could fundamentally change.

因此，第一年大约每个季度，我会写一份文件，内容就像是，嘿，为了挑衅，如果我们想从根本上改变一些事情，这里有一些我们可以从根本上改变的想法。

And Max, very, very well could have just been like, hey, can you please just run product?

麦克斯，非常非常可能只是说，嘿，你能运行一下产品吗？

That's you're job, can you please do that?

这就是你的工作，你能做吗？

And instead, he and the entire rest of the executive team were like, yeah, let's step through these.

相反，他和整个执行团队的其他成员都说，是的，让我们逐步完成这些。

Let's talk about which of these we should try, let's talk about maybe context you don't have for why these don't make sense or why we don't do these.

让我们谈谈我们应该尝试其中哪些，让我们谈谈您可能不知道为什么这些没有意义或为什么我们不这样做的背景。

And that was such a gift because I was able to build such a great relationship, a trusting and complimentary relationship with Max and the rest of the exec team, and also that he took seriously things that he really didn't have to that I have so much respect for that, and I think I got really lucky in just finding a great CEO and exec team.

这是一份礼物，因为我能够与马克斯和执行团队的其他成员建立如此良好的关系，一种信任和互补的关系，而且他认真对待他实际上不需要的事情，我对此非常尊重，我认为我真的很幸运找到了一个伟大的首席执行官和执行团队。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there anything you learned about this vetting process?

Lenny Rachitsky：您从这个审查过程中学到了什么吗？

Say you're a founder looking for a head of product, A CPO, any advice for how they might vet this person to make sure they are good fit and will last?

假设您是一名创始人，正在寻找产品主管、首席产品官，您对如何审查此人以确保他们适合并能持续下去有什么建议吗？

Ami Vora: What I'd say to everyone else is, make sure you just have a mind meld with a CEO.

Ami Vora：我要对其他人说的是，确保你的思想与首席执行官融为一体。

Before you decide to take the job, spend a day together, understand how they think and how they operate, and whether you're going to work together in a way that feels really high fidelity and high trust and you're going to have room.

在你决定接受这份工作之前，花一天的时间在一起，了解他们的想法和运作方式，以及你们是否会以一种感觉非常高忠诚度和高度信任的方式一起工作，并且你们会有空间。

I mean, I'm not a founder by any stretch and so when founders ask me what should I look for in a head of product or CPO, I say something a little bit different, which is, make sure that you really need the level of seniority that you are hiring.

我的意思是，我无论如何都不是创始人，所以当创始人问我应该在产品主管或 CPO 中寻找什么时，我说的有些不同，那就是，确保你确实需要你所招聘的资历水平。

I think that a lot of founders think, I need a CPO, I need a VP of product, I need someone who's really senior, when often the founder has a bunch of the vision and knowledge, and what they really need is somebody to build the product.

我认为很多创始人认为，我需要一名首席产品官，我需要一名产品副总裁，我需要一个真正资深的人，而创始人往往拥有丰富的愿景和知识，而他们真正需要的是有人来构建产品。

They don't need somebody who's going to scale the team or build systems like they've got enough of that.

他们不需要像他们已经拥有的那样能够扩展团队或构建系统的人。

And so that to me is part of building that complimentary relationship where the founder and CEO know what they need and on the CPO side, they know that they can mind meld enough with the CEO to actually have an impact.

因此，对我来说，这是建立互补关系的一部分，创始人和首席执行官知道他们需要什么，而在 CPO 方面，他们知道他们可以与首席执行官充分融合，从而真正产生影响。

Lenny Rachitsky: Last question.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：最后一个问题。

You started as an intern in the PR department, I think, at Meta?

我想，你一开始是在 Meta 公关部门实习的？

Ami Vora: Oh, I started as a temp, actually.

Ami Vora：哦，实际上我一开始是临时工。

Lenny Rachitsky: At temp, okay, amazing.

Lenny Rachitsky：在当时的情况下，好吧，太棒了。

And then you ended up leading Facebook ads and then WhatsApp and many other things.

然后你最终领导了 Facebook 广告，然后是 WhatsApp 和许多其他东西。

Can you share that story of just how you joined and how that happened?

您能分享一下您是如何加入以及如何发生的故事吗？

Ami Vora: Well, I had quit my last job.

Ami Vora：嗯，我已经辞掉了上一份工作。

I knew that what I wanted to do was be involved in all the wild stuff happening in Silicon Valley in the mid 2000s.

我知道我想做的就是参与 2000 年代中期硅谷发生的所有疯狂的事情。

So I'd quit my last job, I was traveling around the world a little bit.

所以我辞掉了上一份工作，开始环游世界。

I was living in New York, an extremely blissful lifestyle.

我住在纽约，过着极其幸福的生活。

I was unemployed, I was doing whatever I wanted.

我失业了，我在做我想做的事。

It was some of the best time I've had in my life, and eventually I needed a job, like you do.

这是我一生中最美好的时光，最终我需要一份工作，就像你一样。

But it was 2007 and the only place I wanted to work was Facebook.

但那是 2007 年，我唯一想工作的地方就是 Facebook。

You could hear the way people talked about these products.

您可以听到人们谈论这些产品的方式。

People would say Facebook is more important than than my car.

人们会说 Facebook 比我的车更重要。

It's like how I connect with the world.

这就像我与世界的联系方式。

It was such a magical product, and you could hear that.

这是一个如此神奇的产品，你可以听到。

Ami Vora: And I knew some people at the company and I convinced one of them to introduce me to everyone at the office.

Ami Vora：我认识公司的一些人，我说服其中一位将我介绍给办公室的每个人。

I'd made a trade, I said, I'll buy you a fancy coffee at Coupa Cafe in downtown Palo Alto, and in exchange just introduced me to everyone, everyone you know, take me around the office.

我做了一笔交易，我说，我会在帕洛阿尔托市中心的 Coupa 咖啡馆给你买一杯高档咖啡，作为交换，我把我介绍给每个人，每个你认识的人，带我参观办公室。

So everyone I met, I said, "Hey, I'm Ami, I really want to work here.

所以我遇到的每个人都会说：“嘿，我是阿米，我真的很想在这里工作。

I'll do whatever you need." And the only call I got back was from the Head of PR, Brandy Barker, who said, "Look, we can't hire you.

我会做你需要的一切。”我接到的唯一电话是公关主管布兰迪·巴克打来的，他说：“听着，我们不能雇用你。

We didn't interview you.

我们没有采访你。

We don't have headcount.

我们没有人数。

You're not really qualified." It was just like 10 reasons.

你还真没有资格。”大概有10个原因。

I was like, okay, thank you for calling me.

我当时想，好吧，谢谢你给我打电话。

And she said, "But we need a temp to review our press releases, so if you want to come join a temp agency, we'll tell them to send you here." And that's what I did, I moved out to California and I slept on people's couches and eventually they hired me full time and I didn't look back.

她说，“但是我们需要一个临时工来审查我们的新闻稿，所以如果你想加入临时工机构，我们会告诉他们把你送到这里。”这就是我所做的，我搬到了加利福尼亚州，睡在人们的沙发上，最终他们雇用了我全职工作，我没有回头。

Lenny Rachitsky: And now you're on Lenny's podcast, what a run.

Lenny Rachitsky：现在你在 Lenny 的播客上，真是太棒了。

It's interesting, this reminds me of another path to power rule from the Jeffrey PFeffer podcast, of networking is one of the best ways to acquire power in the world.

有趣的是，这让我想起了 Jeffrey PFeffer 播客中的另一条通往权力规则的途径，即网络是世界上获取权力的最佳方式之一。

So it's interesting that now that seed has planted in my head.

有趣的是，现在这颗种子已经种在我的脑海里了。

Anyway, just A plug for that other episode also.

无论如何，也只是另一集的插件。

Lenny Rachitsky: Ami, is there anything else that you wanted to share or leave listeners with before we get to a very exciting lightning round?

Lenny Rachitsky：阿米，在我们进入激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想与听众分享或留给听众的吗？

Ami Vora: Sometimes people ask me who are working in product, what's the one thing they should do to be successful at product?

Ami Vora：有时人们问我谁在产品领域工作，他们应该做的一件事是什么才能在产品方面取得成功？

And maybe the thing I would say is, especially as an org scale or a company scales, there's just a lot of distractions that get between you and the customer.

也许我想说的是，尤其是随着组织规模或公司规模的扩大，您和客户之间存在很多干扰。

And so the one thing that I would just advise everyone to do is just think about the customer, talk to the customer, be an advocate for them.

因此，我建议每个人做的一件事就是考虑客户，与客户交谈，成为他们的倡导者。

It's such a shortcut to everything else you need to do in order to be successful, but it's so easy for that to get lost when you're thinking about, okay, how do I get alignment on my team?

这是通往成功所需做的所有其他事情的捷径，但是当您思考“好吧，我如何与我的团队保持一致”时，很容易迷失方向？

How do I figure out my roadmap?

我如何确定我的路线图？

How do I convince people to join the company?

我如何说服人们加入公司？

There's all these different things, but fundamentally, we're here to create value for the customer.

虽然有很多不同的事情，但从根本上来说，我们的目的是为客户创造价值。

And the closer you can get to that, I always found myself the happiest because I'm building that feedback loop with the customer, but also more successful.

越接近这个目标，我总是发现自己最快乐，因为我正在与客户建立反馈循环，而且也更成功。

Lenny Rachitsky: Well, let me actually follow up on this because this is really important and interesting.

Lenny Rachitsky：好吧，让我实际跟进一下，因为这非常重要且有趣。

There's a PM part of my brain of like, okay, but we also got to move some metrics and sometimes that metric isn't going to be moved by, we need to do something specifically for the customer, but it's something that will help the business.

我脑子里有一个 PM 部分，好吧，但我们也必须移动一些指标，有时该指标不会被移动，我们需要专门为客户做一些事情，但这是对业务有帮助的事情。

Is there anything there of just that balance of like, we need to move over this conversion metric, versus, let's focus fully on what does the customer want and need?

有没有什么平衡点，比如我们需要改变这个转化指标，而不是让我们完全关注客户想要和需要什么？

Any thoughts there?

有什么想法吗？

Ami Vora: Yeah, I think we often make things adversarial that are not actually adversarial.

Ami Vora：是的，我认为我们经常让事情变得对抗性，但实际上并不是对抗性的。

It is very rare for customer value to be different than a company value on a long enough time horizon.

在足够长的时间范围内，客户价值与公司价值不同的情况非常罕见。

There might be short-term divergences, but really, to solve, to create value for the customer, you got to be around as a business, otherwise you are creating zero value for the customer.

可能存在短期分歧，但实际上，要解决问题，为客户创造价值，你必须作为一个企业存在，否则你就是为客户创造零价值。

And so I think really, just starting with the, what are the end goals and where does stuff diverge in the very short term versus the medium term versus in the long term?

所以我认为，首先，最终目标是什么？短期、中期和长期的差异在哪里？

It shouldn't, and really thinking about where you are in the journey and how to place that.

它不应该，并且真正思考你在旅程中的位置以及如何放置它。

That always helps me because our metrics should absolutely be about long-term customer impact.

这总是对我有帮助，因为我们的指标绝对应该关注长期客户影响。

It's very rare if those aren't, and then you're still able to be successful.

如果不是的话，这种情况非常罕见，但你仍然能够成功。

Lenny Rachitsky: It comes back to our chat about metrics and how to do those well.

Lenny Rachitsky：回到我们关于指标以及如何做好这些指标的讨论。

Lenny Rachitsky: With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

Lenny Rachitsky：这样，我们就进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Lenny Rachitsky: Here we go.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我们开始吧。

First question, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

第一个问题，您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Ami Vora: The Year of Yes, by Shonda Rhimes.

《阿米·沃拉：是的之年》，珊达·莱姆斯著。

I almost never read nonfiction.

我几乎从不读非小说类作品。

I love Shonda Rhimes, made an exception for this one.

我喜欢珊达·莱姆斯，但这次是个例外。

It's about just saying yes to things and finding your voice when you do feel like you're sometimes the first or the only or the different, and what that feels like.

这是关于对事情说“是”，并在你有时确实感觉自己是第一个、唯一的或与众不同的时候找到你的声音，以及那种感觉。

And it was very life-changing for me, actually.

事实上，这对我的生活来说是非常改变的。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's an awesome pick.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很棒的选择。

No one has recommended that one yet.

还没有人推荐过这个。

Reminds me of an episode of Matthew Dicks, who has a Ted Talk about saying yes to everything.

让我想起马修·迪克斯的一集，他有一个关于对一切说“是”的泰德演讲。

Lenny Rachitsky: He just says, Chris, to say yes to everything and his life is incredibly interesting as a result.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：克里斯，他只是说，对一切都说“是”，因此他的生活变得非常有趣。

Next question, do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show you really enjoyed?

下一个问题，您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？

Ami Vora: I watch a lot of witty workplace comedies from the mid 2000s.

Ami Vora：我看了很多 2000 年代中期的诙谐职场喜剧。

So I watch a lot of The Office or 30 Rock reruns.

所以我看了很多《办公室》或《30 Rock》的重播。

Things are just very comfortable that I already know everything, there's no surprises.

事情很舒服，我已经知道了一切，没有什么惊喜。

I'm not great with new stuff right now.

我现在不太喜欢新事物。

Lenny Rachitsky: I heard they're bringing back The Office.

Lenny Rachitsky：我听说他们要带回《办公室》。

There's a reboot happening.

发生重启。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, exactly.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，完全正确。

Is there a favorite product you've recently discovered that you love, either digital, physical, anything?

有没有您最近发现的最喜欢的产品，无论是数字产品还是实体产品？

Ami Vora: Maybe a physical product that I really like.

Ami Vora：也许是我真正喜欢的实体产品。

I drink a lot of coffee and tea through the day and it's just, I don't know, a calming ritual.

我整天喝很多咖啡和茶，我不知道这只是一种平静的仪式。

And so I have a Fellow's electric kettle, that was my big work from home upgrade.

所以我有一个研究员的电热水壶，这是我在家升级的一项重大工作。

So I have this life for kettle, I have a pour over kit.

所以我有水壶的生活，我有一个倒水套件。

I have these lovely colorful mugs that I like, that has actually just made my day-to-day a lot better, is just a little feeling of luxury.

我有这些我喜欢的可爱的彩色杯子，它们实际上让我的日常生活变得更好，只是有点奢侈的感觉。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

I think we have that same kettle.

我想我们有同一个水壶。

I also drink tea during every episode I have here.

我在这里的每一集也会喝茶。

Lenny Rachitsky: So we're on the same page.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以我们意见一致。

Next question.

下一个问题。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often think about, come back to, share with friends or family, in work or in life?

您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，是您在工作或生活中经常思考、回想并与朋友或家人分享的？

Ami Vora: It is definitely not a motto.

Ami Vora：这绝对不是座右铭。

I feel like I know people have mottos and I'm so impressed.

我觉得我知道人们都有座右铭，这给我留下了深刻的印象。

I'm like, you know what you are, you know what you need.

我想，你知道自己是什么，你知道自己需要什么。

I am not that person, but I have a piece of advice that someone gave me very early in my career.

我不是那样的人，但我有一个在我职业生涯早期就有人给我的建议。

Actually, it was Chamath, he said, "You can either have more energy or less ambition." And I was like, oh, that's a little harsh, but also really true.

事实上，这是查马斯，他说，“你要么有更多的精力，要么更少的野心。”我当时想，哦，这有点刺耳，但也确实如此。

And I think about that, it's another of my Roman empires.

我想，这是我的另一个罗马帝国。

I think about it all the time where I'm like, okay, if I want to have this kind of impact, I'm going to have to do the work, I'm going to have to try new things, I'm going to have to feel uncomfortable, and sometimes I don't want to do those things.

我一直在想，好吧，如果我想产生这种影响，我就必须做这些工作，我就必须尝试新事物，我就必须感到不舒服，有时我不想做这些事情。

I don't want to do all of that work, and then I can't be mad if I'm not having the impact.

我不想做所有这些工作，如果我没有产生影响，我也不会生气。

Those two just have to go together.

这两个人必须走在一起。

I also have to get lucky in all these different ways, but the two have to go together and that's been just a good governor, a little bit, of how I think about what I'm putting in.

我还必须在所有这些不同的方面获得幸运，但这两者必须结合在一起，这只是一个很好的调节器，一点点，我如何思考我所投入的内容。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that quote.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这句话。

By the way, if people don't know what you're talking about when you talk about the Roman Empires, there's a meme on TikTok where somebody said that every man thinks about the Roman Empire at least once a week.

顺便说一句，如果当你谈论罗马帝国时人们不知道你在说什么，TikTok 上有一个表情包，有人说每个人每周至少会想到罗马帝国一次。

Right?

正确的？

Ami Vora: It's made me think about, what are all the things I think about repeatedly without really having trigger or reason?

Ami Vora：这让我思考，我在没有真正触发或理由的情况下反复思考的所有事情是什么？

And there's still a lot.

而且还有很多。

I don't think about the Roman Empire though.

不过我不考虑罗马帝国。

That is not one of them.

那不是其中之一。

Lenny Rachitsky: I also don't think about the Roman Empires, something's wrong with me.

Lenny Rachitsky：我也不考虑罗马帝国，我有问题。

Okay, final question.

好的，最后一个问题。

You can blame your colleague Barr for this question.

你可以把这个问题归咎于你的同事巴尔。

He tells me that you are very good at jokes, you tell very good jokes.

他告诉我你很擅长开玩笑，你讲的笑话很好。

Do you have a joke that you want to share by any chance?

您有一个想分享的笑话吗？

Ami Vora: I love jokes.

Ami Vora：我喜欢笑话。

There was a year at Facebook where I posted a joke of the week to the company and they're all terrible.

有一年在 Facebook，我向公司发布了一周的笑话，它们都很糟糕。

Ami Vora: Yeah, exactly.

阿米·沃拉：是的，完全正确。

All right.

好的。

Here's my favorite joke.

这是我最喜欢的笑话。

Ami Vora: Because they taste funny.

Ami Vora：因为它们味道很奇怪。

I'll tell you one more and you can choose one, you can choose which one.

我再告诉你一个，你可以选择一个，你可以选择哪一个。

All right.

好的。

Lenny Rachitsky: No, we're not cutting anything.

Lenny Rachitsky：不，我们不会削减任何内容。

Ami Vora: What did the zero say to the eight?

Ami Vora：零对八说了什么？

Lenny Rachitsky: What did the zero say to the eight?

Lenny Rachitsky：零对八说了什么？

Something like us.

像我们这样的东西。

Okay, no, I don't know.

好吧，不，我不知道。

Lenny Rachitsky: I get it, I get it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我明白了，我明白了。

I'm going to tell you a joke.

我要给你讲个笑话。

I just heard a standup share.

我刚刚听到一个站立分享。

How do you turn an egg into a vegetable?

如何把鸡蛋变成蔬菜？

Ami Vora: I feel like if you put a letter on it'll turn into a vegetable name, but I can't think of the letter.

Ami Vora：我觉得如果你在上面写上一个字母，它就会变成一个植物名，但我想不出这个字母。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that you're really trying to analyze it and get there because I don't know if it's ever possible to actually get the answer.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你真正尝试分析它并到达那里，因为我不知道是否有可能真正得到答案。

Okay, so how do you turn an egg into a vegetable?

好吧，那么如何把鸡蛋变成蔬菜呢？

Squash.

壁球。

Ami Vora: That is definitely my level of joke, definitely.

Ami Vora：这绝对是我的笑话水平。

Lenny Rachitsky: They're like, this is for your kid.

Lenny Rachitsky：他们说，这是给你的孩子的。

Go home and do this joke.

回家开个玩笑吧。

Lenny Rachitsky: Ami, this was everything I hoped it would be.

Lenny Rachitsky：阿米，这就是我所希望的一切。

I'm going to read again the goal you had for this podcast, I 100% think we achieved it.

我将再次阅读您为此播客设定的目标，我 100% 认为我们已经实现了。

To be as authentic as possible and show that people can be pretty messy and imperfect at times, yet still be very successful.

尽可能真实，并表明人们有时可能会非常混乱和不完美，但仍然非常成功。

I think exactly what this podcast ended up being.

我想这个播客最终会是什么样子。

Thank you so much for being here.

非常感谢您来到这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: Two final questions.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and learn more, and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想联系并了解更多信息，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Ami Vora: Oh, thank you, Lenny.

阿米·沃拉：哦，谢谢你，莱尼。

It's been such a pleasure.

真是太高兴了。

I write a blog on Substack at amiboard@substack.com.

我在 Substack 上写了一篇博客，地址为 amiboard@substack.com。

It's called The Hard Parts of Growth, it's just about how even when you're working in great places with great people at great companies, sometimes things are hard and that's normal.

这就是所谓的“成长的困难部分”，它讲述的是即使你在伟大的地方与伟大公司的伟大人才一起工作，有时事情也会很困难，但这很正常。

And so you can find me there.

所以你可以在那里找到我。

I do the same, I crosspost to LinkedIn so you can find me there.

我也这样做，我交叉发布到 LinkedIn，这样你就可以在那里找到我。

And how can people be helpful to me?

人们如何对我有帮助？

I don't know, just by being great, by being kind and nice and making the world slightly better.

我不知道，只是通过变得伟大，通过善良和友善，让世界变得更好一点。

Yeah, I think that's what we can all do.

是的，我想这就是我们都可以做的。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that, and I will link to your Substack in the show notes, so if where people want to check it out, and I'll recommend it.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个，我会在演出笔记中链接到你的 Substack，所以如果人们想查看它，我会推荐它。

I haven't done it yet, but I'm going to recommend it for my Substack.

我还没有这样做，但我会推荐它用于我的子堆栈。

Ami Vora: Thank you, Lenny, so much.

阿米·沃拉：非常感谢你，莱尼。

This was such a fun conversation.

这是一次非常有趣的谈话。

I've really enjoyed it.

我真的很喜欢它。

Lenny Rachitsky: I loved it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢它。

Ami, thank you so much for being here.

阿米，非常感谢你来到这里。

Bye, everyone.

再见，大家。

Lenny Rachitsky: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show lennyspodcast.com.

您可以找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息 lennyspodcast.com。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。