Scripts for navigating difficult conversations | Alisa Cohn (executive coach)

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to dive right into talking about your advice on having difficult conversations, where like in performance review season, what do you suggest when someone's being told they're not going to get the promotion?

Lenny Rachitsky：我想直接谈谈你对进行困难对话的建议，就像在绩效评估季节一样，当有人被告知他们不会获得晋升时，你有什么建议？

Alisa Cohn: Hope for the future is so important.

艾丽莎·科恩：对未来的希望非常重要。

I know this is going to be challenging for you to hear, not going to promote you, but I want you to know this.

我知道这对你来说是一个挑战，不会提升你，但我想让你知道这一点。

It's really important to me that you're able to succeed in your career here, and so I want to continue to help you find opportunities to build your skills and to advance.

对我来说，您能够在这里取得职业成功非常重要，因此我想继续帮助您找到培养技能和进步的机会。

Lenny Rachitsky: You're big on helping leaders understand that their job is not to make employees happy.

Lenny Rachitsky：您致力于帮助领导者了解他们的工作不是让员工快乐。

Alisa Cohn: They're trying now to be the leader who everyone loves, but what really needs to happen very often is, we need to drive towards results.

艾丽莎·科恩：他们现在正努力成为人人喜爱的领导者，但真正需要经常发生的是，我们需要推动结果。

This employee continuing to not really do a great job at their job, you don't want to push them because you don't want to upset them.

该员工在工作中仍然表现不佳，您不想推动他们，因为您不想让他们感到不安。

You don't want to give them difficult feedback, so you're just going to keep hoping it works out.

你不想给他们困难的反馈，所以你只会一直希望事情能成功。

Ultimately, that leads to the demise of your company.

最终，这会导致你的公司消亡。

Lenny Rachitsky: You have some cool advice on just how to make meetings more effective and how to especially end the meeting.

Lenny Rachitsky：您对如何使会议更有效以及如何结束会议提出了一些很酷的建议。

Alisa Cohn: My three questions to end the meeting are...

艾丽莎·科恩：我要结束会议的三个问题是……

Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Alisa Cohn.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：今天我的客人是艾丽莎·科恩。

Alisa is an executive coach who has worked with C-suite execs at both startups like Etsy, Wirecutter, Venmo, and DraftKings, along with Fortune 500 companies like Microsoft, Google, Pfizer, and the New York Times.

Alisa 是一名高管教练，曾与 Etsy、Wirecutter、Venmo 和 DraftKings 等初创公司以及微软、谷歌、辉瑞和纽约时报等财富 500 强公司的高管一起工作。

She was named one of the top 50 coaches in the world by Thinkers50 and the number one startup coach for the past four years by Global Gurus.

她被 Thinkers50 评为全球 50 名最佳教练之一，并被 Global Gurus 评为过去四年排名第一的创业教练。

What I love about Alisa is that she gives her clients very specific and actionable advice.

我喜欢 Alisa 的一点是，她为客户提供了非常具体且可行的建议。

In her conversation, Alisa shares specific language and phrases that you can use when having a difficult conversation with your reports to make these conversations go much smoother and be less difficult.

在她的对话中，Alisa 分享了您在与下属进行困难对话时可以使用的特定语言和短语，以使这些对话变得更加顺利且不那么困难。

Also, three questions you should ask at the end of every meeting to make the most possible forward progress after each meeting.

此外，您应该在每次会议结束时问三个问题，以便在每次会议后取得最大可能的进展。

Plus, why your job as a leader isn't to make people happy and what you should be focused on instead, and a set of questions that she calls the founder prenup that you should talk through with potential founders to make sure that these are the people that you want to be working with for a long, long time.

另外，为什么你作为领导者的工作不是让人们快乐，你应该关注什么，以及一系列她称之为创始人婚前协议的问题，你应该与潜在的创始人讨论，以确保这些人是你想要长期共事的人。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's also so much more advice.

Lenny Rachitsky：还有很多建议。

If you're a leader of people or a founder, and especially if you dread hard conversations, this episode is for you.

如果您是领导者或创始人，尤其是如果您害怕艰难的对话，那么本集适合您。

If enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously.

这是避免错过未来剧集的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

With that, I bring you Alisa Cohn.

接下来，我为您带来艾丽莎·科恩。

This episode is brought to you by Eppo.

本集由 Eppo 为您带来。

Eppo is a next generation A/B testing and feature management platform built by alums of Airbnb and Snowflake for modern growth teams.

Eppo 是由 Airbnb 和 Snowflake 的校友为现代增长团队构建的下一代 A/B 测试和功能管理平台。

Companies like Twitch, Miro, ClickUp and DraftKings rely on Eppo to power their experiments.

Twitch、Miro、ClickUp 和 DraftKings 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。

Experimentation is increasingly essential for driving growth and for understanding the performance of new features.

实验对于推动增长和了解新功能的性能越来越重要。

And Eppo helps you increase experimentation velocity while unlocking rigorous deep analysis in a way that no other commercial tool does.

Eppo 可以帮助您提高实验速度，同时以其他商业工具无法做到的方式解锁严格的深度分析。

When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved most was our experimentation platform where I could set up experiments, easily troubleshoot issues, and analyze all on my own.

当我在 Airbnb 时，我最喜欢的事情之一就是我们的实验平台，我可以在其中设置实验、轻松解决问题并自行分析所有内容。

Lenny Rachitsky: Eppo does all that and more with advanced statistical methods that can help you shave weeks off experiment time and accessible UI for diving deeper into performance and out-of-the-box reporting that helps you avoid annoying prolonged analytic cycles.

Lenny Rachitsky：Eppo 通过先进的统计方法完成了所有这些工作，可以帮助您缩短数周的实验时间，还可以使用可访问的 UI 来更深入地了解性能，开箱即用的报告可以帮助您避免烦人的长时间分析周期。

Eppo also makes it easy for you to share experiment insights with your team, sparking new ideas for the A/B testing flywheel.

Eppo 还使您可以轻松地与您的团队分享实验见解，激发 A/B 测试飞轮的新想法。

Eppo powers experimentation across every use case, including product, growth, machine learning, monetization, and email marketing.

Eppo 为每个用例提供实验支持，包括产品、增长、机器学习、货币化和电子邮件营销。

Check out Eppo at geteppo.com/lenny and 10X your experiment velocity.

请访问 geteppo.com/lenny 查看 Eppo，将您的实验速度提高 10 倍。

That's get E-P-P-O.com/lenny.

请访问 E-P-P-O.com/lenny。

This episode is brought to you by Rippling, a single platform to build and scale your startup on.

本集由 Rippling 为您带来，Rippling 是一个用于构建和扩展您的初创公司的单一平台。

Rippling handles all the, can't get it wrong admin work of payroll and benefits giving you back hours every week, but it does a lot more than that.

Rippling 可以处理所有的工资和福利管理工作，每周都可以为您节省时间，但它的作用远不止于此。

Rippling is a game changer for the entire company with tools for HR, IT and spend, all built from the ground up and designed to work together seamlessly.

Rippling 是整个公司的游戏规则改变者，提供人力资源、IT 和支出工具，所有这些工具都是从头开始构建的，旨在无缝协作。

Lenny Rachitsky: Just hired someone?

Lenny Rachitsky：刚刚雇了一个人？

Rippling makes onboarding easy.

Ripple 让入门变得简单。

Whether your new hire is sitting next to you or halfway across the world, in just a few clicks, Rippling automatically generates an offer letter, ships a laptop with the necessary apps and permissions, and even delivers a corporate card.

无论您的新员工坐在您旁边还是远在地球另一端，只需点击几下，Rippling 就会自动生成录用通知书、运送带有必要应用程序和权限的笔记本电脑，甚至还提供一张公司卡。

An employee needs to update their benefits contribution.

员工需要更新他们的福利缴款。

When they do it in Rippling, the change automatically syncs to payroll.

当他们在 Rippling 中执行此操作时，更改会自动同步到工资单。

CTO forgot her laptop in an Uber?

CTO 将笔记本电脑忘在 Uber 车里了？

Lock it remotely with Rippling.

使用 Rippling 远程锁定它。

Many startups I've invested in like Sprig, and ClassDojo, use Rippling because it's a force multiplier for lean teams, helping them eliminate major headaches and operate their business more efficiently.

我投资的许多初创公司（例如 Sprig 和 ClassDojo）都使用 Rippling，因为它对于精益团队来说是一个力量倍增器，可以帮助他们消除主要难题并更有效地运营业务。

For a limited time, Rippling is giving Lenny's listeners three months off.

在有限的时间内，Rippling 为 Lenny 的听众提供三个月的休息时间。

To redeem, visit rippling.com/lenny.

如需兑换，请访问 ripplling.com/lenny。

That's rippling.com/lenny.

那是 ripple.com/lenny。

Alisa, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

艾丽莎，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Alisa Cohn: Lenny, it's so great to be here and thanks for having me.

Alisa Cohn：Lenny，很高兴来到这里，感谢您邀请我。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to dive right into talking about your advice on having difficult conversations.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想直接谈谈你对进行困难对话的建议。

I personally dread difficult conversations.

我个人害怕困难的谈话。

I feel like I practice ahead of these things.

我觉得我在这些事情之前就已经练习了。

I'm like, "I'm going to say these things.

我想，“我要说这些事情。

It's going to go like this," and it never goes as well as I hope.

事情就会像这样进行”，但事情永远不会像我希望的那样顺利。

I always say the wrong thing.

我总是说错话。

I feel like this is very relatable.

我觉得这非常有关联。

They're called difficult conversations for a reason.

它们被称为困难对话是有原因的。

Lenny Rachitsky: I know you work with a lot of execs on this specifically, and what I love is you've actually come up with a bunch of scripts that help people make these conversations less difficult.

Lenny Rachitsky：我知道你在这方面与很多高管合作，我喜欢的是你实际上想出了一堆脚本来帮助人们降低这些对话的难度。

So how about we talk through some of these scripts that people can actually start applying?

那么我们来讨论一下人们可以实际开始应用的一些脚本怎么样？

Alisa Cohn: Let's do that.

艾莉莎·科恩：我们就这么做吧。

I love that idea.

我喜欢这个主意。

And also Lenny, as you just said, very relatable and also, so you're not alone.

还有莱尼，正如你刚才所说，非常有亲和力，所以你并不孤单。

If I could ask you a question, if you're picturing a difficult conversation that you have had, should have, might have, and you're nervous about, it's hard for you, can you sum it up?

如果我可以问你一个问题，如果你正在想象一场你曾经经历过、应该经历过、可能经历过的艰难对话，并且你感到紧张，这对你来说很难，你能总结一下吗？

What's hard about it?

这有什么难的呢？

Because it's helpful to clarify what is hard about it?

因为澄清其中的难点很有帮助？

Lenny Rachitsky: Great question.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好问题。

I just don't want to make people sad and upset, and I worry about their reaction, how to deal with that, and them just getting really upset and mad and just like, "Oh, man.

我只是不想让人们悲伤和不安，我担心他们的反应，如何处理，他们会变得非常沮丧和生气，就像，“哦，伙计。

This really made things worse." So I worry about the reaction, I guess.

这确实让事情变得更糟。”所以我猜我担心反应。

Alisa Cohn: Okay, about making things worse or about their reaction?

艾丽莎·科恩：好的，关于让事情变得更糟还是关于他们的反应？

Lenny Rachitsky: The reaction, just making someone upset and sad.

Lenny Rachitsky：这种反应只会让某人感到不安和悲伤。

I don't want to do that.

我不想那样做。

Alisa Cohn: Making someone upset.

艾丽莎·科恩：让某人心烦意乱。

Okay, good.

好的，很好。

And again, you're not alone about that.

再说一遍，你并不孤单。

Just one more question on that.

对此还有一个问题。

What's the problem if they're sad and upset?

如果他们感到悲伤和不安，会有什么问题呢？

What does that mean to you?

这对你来说意味着什么？

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, I love this life coaching we're doing.

Lenny Rachitsky：哦，我喜欢我们正在做的这种生活指导。

Yeah, so it's like what happens if they get sad and upset?

是的，那么如果他们感到悲伤和不安会发生什么？

Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like it's stuff that I'm going to have to deal with.

Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得这是我必须要处理的事情。

It's like this drama all of a sudden, this new fire I have to think about.

就像这出戏突然间，这新火我不得不思考。

And yeah, it's like the additional work it creates and also just, I don't know.

是的，这就像它创造的额外工作，而且我不知道。

Yeah, it's a good question.

是的，这是一个好问题。

Alisa Cohn: You can think about it some more, right?

Alisa Cohn：你可以再考虑一下，对吧？

I'm not going to put you on the spot right now, but just to say for all of us, the reason they're difficult, to your point, they're difficult.

我现在不会让你陷入困境，只是想对我们所有人说，他们之所以困难，就你的观点而言，他们很难。

But we're putting meaning on things all the time, every day, all the time, and I think it's important, it's actually helpful in motivating you to have difficult conversations, but also in helping them go well.

但我们每天、每时每刻都在赋予事物以意义，我认为这很重要，它实际上有助于激励你进行困难的对话，而且还能帮助它们顺利进行。

If you can get to the bottom of what you're putting on top of it, what you're weighting it with, because I can understand that again, you are not alone.

如果你能弄清楚你在上面放了什么，你用什么来衡量它，因为我可以再次理解这一点，你并不孤单。

I don't want to make people upset.

我不想让人们不高兴。

Totally.

完全。

Alisa Cohn: And also, I would just say on the other hand, when you're enlightening someone or you're working out a situation with someone and it's difficult, if you don't give them the opportunity to hear what you have to say, if you don't bring this up, then you're never going to have the opportunity to help them see something differently or help them improve or help you improve the relationship or whatever it is you're trying to do.

艾莉莎·科恩：另外，我想说，另一方面，当你启发某人或与某人解决某种情况时，如果你不给他们机会听到你要说的话，如果你不提出这一点，那么你永远不会有机会帮助他们以不同的方式看待某些事情，或者帮助他们改善或帮助你改善关系，或者你想要做的任何事情。

And so, I can understand it's a natural thing.

所以，我可以理解这是很自然的事情。

I don't want to make them upset.

我不想让他们不高兴。

Alisa Cohn: No one wants to make anybody upset, but through that upset on the other side of that, can often be a whole new possibility and a whole new revelation, and actually a lot of joy and freedom.

艾丽莎·科恩：没有人想让任何人感到不安，但通过这种不安的另一面，往往可以带来一种全新的可能性和一种全新的启示，实际上还有很多快乐和自由。

I think that we forget about all the other possibilities that come out of difficult conversations and we just land on these really uncomfortable parts about like, "oh, it's going to be a lot of extra work" or like, "They're going to get uncomfortable or even maybe cry." And I think it's just really helpful to tap into what you make it mean and then also what other possibilities it could mean.

我认为我们忘记了困难对话中出现的所有其他可能性，我们只是落在这些非常不舒服的部分上，例如，“哦，这将是很多额外的工作”或“他们会感到不舒服，甚至可能会哭泣。”我认为深入了解它的含义以及它可能意味着的其他可能性非常有帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

And it's one thing to hear that and say that, it's another to actually feel that deeply and feel like I shouldn't be as worried as I am.

听到并说出这样的话是一回事，真正有如此深刻的感受并觉得我不应该像现在这样担心是另一回事。

I think part of it is doing these enough times where you're like, "Okay, it's actually not so hard." And the other is having some of this support.

我认为部分原因是做了足够多的次数，你会说：“好吧，实际上并不那么难。”另一个是获得一些支持。

To make this even more real, let's give some examples of what we say when we say difficult conversations.

为了让这一点更加真实，让我们举一些例子来说明当我们谈论困难的对话时我们会说什么。

There's like, "You're not getting a promotion that you thought you would, we're going to let you go." What other examples or common difficult conversations that you run across?

就像，“你没有得到你想象的晋升，我们将让你离开。”您遇到过哪些其他例子或常见的困难对话？

Alisa Cohn: Those are two very common ones.

Alisa Cohn：这是两个非常常见的问题。

And then of course, the most common one is just difficult performance feedback.

当然，最常见的就是困难的绩效反馈。

Or what we say, quote unquote, "constructive performance feedback," which we never made positive.

或者我们所说的，直接引用“建设性的绩效反馈”，但我们从未对此做出积极的回应。

It only is the sort of things that you're not doing well.

只是那些事情你做得不好而已。

I think there are two flavors of that.

我认为有两种风格。

One is, "You're screwing up" and the other is, "Developmentally, I'd like to see you add something or change something."

一种是，“你搞砸了”，另一种是，“从发展的角度来看，我希望看到你添加一些东西或改变一些东西。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Yes.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

And as you say that, one of the other fears I have is them just disagreeing and me feeling like maybe it's not right, maybe I'm wrong and feeling shit maybe.

正如你所说，我的另一个恐惧是他们不同意，我觉得也许这是不对的，也许我错了，也许感觉很糟糕。

I didn't see something and then just looking worse after the whole thing.

我什么也没看到，但在整个事情发生之后，我看起来更糟了。

Alisa Cohn: Yeah.

艾莉莎·科恩：是的。

And so then I think what's also really helpful to, and part of the process that we can talk about this for sure is getting a difficult conversation is number one, tapping into what's uncomfortable for it, for you, about it.

因此，我认为真正有帮助的，也是我们可以肯定谈论这个问题的过程的一部分，首先是进行一次困难的对话，探讨对它、对你来说、关于它的不舒服的地方。

And then number two, also getting your mindset right.

第二，也要摆正心态。

So to say the obvious, are you doing this to hurt someone's feelings?

很明显，你这样做是为了伤害别人的感情吗？

No, never, right?

不，从来没有，对吧？

Alisa Cohn: That's not the reason that anyone's doing it.

Alisa Cohn：这不是任何人这样做的原因。

Sometimes people are giving the performance feedback or talking about something that's been bothering them in order to express themselves and vent.

有时，人们会给出绩效反馈或谈论一些一直困扰他们的事情，以表达自己和发泄。

And actually, that is very helpful to identify for yourself, that's why I'm doing it.

事实上，这对于自我识别非常有帮助，这就是我这样做的原因。

And then, maybe not do it then, until you can transform your reasoning.

然后，也许不这样做，直到你能改变你的推理。

But at the end of the day, the hope is as a manager, the reason that you're giving someone this so-called constructive feedback is because you're helping them get better.

但归根结底，作为一名经理，你之所以向某人提供所谓的建设性反馈，是因为你正在帮助他们变得更好。

You need them to change the behavior.

你需要他们来改变行为。

They'll never get promoted if they keep doing that.

如果他们继续这样做，他们永远不会升职。

They'll never be successful if they keep doing that.

如果他们继续这样做，他们永远不会成功。

And so, it's your job as a leader and as a manager, to help them out of that problem and help them do something different.

因此，作为领导者和经理，你的工作就是帮助他们解决这个问题并帮助他们做一些不同的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: The best story I've heard to make that really real for me, I think it was Kim Scott when she came on the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：我听过的最好的故事对我来说是真实的，我认为这是 Kim Scott 参加播客时的故事。

She told a story of, I think it was Bob, where everyone just knew he was terrible and it was like, everyone's was just like knew he was not good and eventually, the boss had a conversation with him eight months into it and told him, "It's not going to work out.

她讲了一个故事，我认为是鲍勃，每个人都知道他很糟糕，就像每个人都知道他不好，最终，老板在八个月后与他交谈并告诉他，“这不会成功。

You're just doing a bad job." And he's like, "Why didn't anyone tell me?

你只是做得不好而已。”他说：“为什么没有人告诉我？

I didn't realize that.

我没有意识到这一点。

If you told me, I would've changed." And everyone assumed he knew.

如果你告诉我，我就会改变。”每个人都认为他知道。

And so I think to your point, this is to help the person.

所以我认为就你的观点而言，这是为了帮助这个人。

It's not not to hurt them.

这并不是不伤害他们。

Alisa Cohn: Yeah, a hundred percent.

艾丽莎·科恩：是的，百分之一百。

One of my clients, he was running a division and one of his people was not doing it right, not doing it right, not getting the right kind of data, not having to do the right kind of analysis, whatever it was.

我的一位客户，他正在管理一个部门，他的一个人没有正确地做事，没有正确地做事，没有获得正确的数据，没有必要进行正确的分析，无论是什么。

We were talking about it and I said, "Well, how come you have another feedback with her?" And he said, "You know, she's just going to cry.

我们正在谈论这件事，我说：“好吧，你怎么又向她提供了反馈？”他说：“你知道，她只是会哭。

She's just going to cry.

她只是要哭了。

She's older, whatever, she's just going to cry.

她年纪大了，无论如何，她都会哭。

It's going to be too uncomfortable, whatever." So we worked, we talked and talked and talked.

无论如何，这都会太不舒服。”所以我们工作、交谈、交谈、交谈。

I gave him a script.

我给了他一个剧本。

We really worked it out and he agreed that he would go in and have that conversation with her, which he did.

我们真的解决了这个问题，他同意他会进去和她谈谈，他也这么做了。

Alisa Cohn: And he reported back to me and he was shaken.

艾丽莎·科恩：他向我汇报后，他感到震惊。

She cried.

她哭了。

Of course she did.

她当然做到了。

She cried.

她哭了。

That's what he knew she was going to do.

这就是他知道她要做的事。

And so she was upset and she went home early and the whole thing.

所以她很沮丧，所以她很早就回家了。

The next day she came in and she said, "Thank you so much for telling me that.

第二天，她进来说：“非常感谢你告诉我这些。

I wish someone had told me that 15 years ago.

我希望有人在 15 年前就告诉我这一点。

I think I could have had a different career." And I think that is so meaningful for all leaders and people who are responsible for other people to understand that you're uncomfortable when they start crying, of course, or they have this difficult reaction or whatever.

我想我本来可以从事不同的职业。”我认为这对于所有领导者和对他人负责的人来说非常有意义，因为他们要理解当他们开始哭泣时你会感到不舒服，当然，或者他们有这种困难的反应或其他什么。

But honestly, the only way you're going to be able to help someone grow in their career and become the best person they can be is by leaning into these tough conversations.

但老实说，你能够帮助某人在职业生涯中成长并成为他们所能成为的最好的人的唯一方法就是通过这些艰难的对话。

Lenny Rachitsky: What I love about the scripts we're going to talk about, which we probably should transition to, is it's again, one thing to hear that and be like, "Yes, okay, I need to do this.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢我们将要讨论的剧本（我们可能应该过渡到这些剧本）的一点是，听到这个剧本并说“是的，好吧，我需要这样做”是一回事。

I need to get better at typical conversations.

我需要在典型对话方面做得更好。

I need to have that talk without someone that we should let go." It's another when it's like tomorrow is the meeting and you're like, "Oh, my God.

我需要在没有我们应该放手的人的情况下进行谈话。”当明天就要开会时，你会说：“哦，天哪。

I have to have this conversation now." And so, I love that you actually give people a really simple approach to how to lay this stuff out in various different contexts.

我现在必须进行这次谈话。”因此，我喜欢您实际上为人们提供了一种非常简单的方法来如何在各种不同的环境中布置这些内容。

So let's talk through some of these approaches and scripts you've come up with.

那么让我们来讨论一下您提出的一些方法和脚本。

What do you think would be a good one to start with?

您认为从什么开始比较好？

Alisa Cohn: Well, we can start with performance feedback and we can just sort of take a typical example.

Alisa Cohn：嗯，我们可以从绩效反馈开始，我们可以举一个典型的例子。

So first of all, once you've done your work to get your mindset right to kind of know what you're doing it, and then you just really want to really be able to wrap your mouth around the words.

所以首先，一旦你完成了你的工作，让你的心态正确，知道你在做什么，然后你真的希望能够真正说出这些话。

So what that looks like is practicing, and the script could be, "You know, Matilda, I want to chat with you about the way you're interacting with your peers.

所以看起来就是练习，脚本可能是，“你知道，玛蒂尔达，我想和你谈谈你与同龄人互动的方式。

So what I'm hearing from them is that you're missing deadlines on a regular basis and not letting them know you're missing the deadlines, and that also you're not fully keeping your team up to speed.

所以我从他们那里听到的是，你经常错过最后期限，并且不让他们知道你错过了最后期限，而且你也没有完全让你的团队跟上进度。

Alisa Cohn: And so they're kind of confused running around.

Alisa Cohn：所以他们有点困惑，到处乱跑。

Now, we both know that the most important way you can be successful here and also achieve your goals is to make sure that you are working with your peers in a way that's consistent and that they can count on you and you can count on them.

现在，我们都知道，您在这里取得成功并实现目标的最重要方法是确保您以一致的方式与同事合作，并且他们可以信赖您，您也可以信赖他们。

So I wanted to let you know about this.

所以我想让你知道这一点。

I want to certainly hear what you have to say, but the most important thing is that we leave this discussion knowing how you're going to make sure that you're keeping your peers in the loop and also your team in the loop."

我当然想听听你要说什么，但最重要的是，我们在讨论结束时知道你将如何确保让你的同事和你的团队了解情况。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, there's so many elements there that are really interesting.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，有很多非常有趣的元素。

Just focusing on what I'm hearing versus just coming from you or something you've done wrong.

只关注我所听到的内容，而不是仅仅关注来自您或您做错的事情。

It's, here's what I'm hearing from multiple sources.

这是我从多个来源听到的消息。

I think that helps people.

我认为这对人们有帮助。

Okay, it's not just you and just like, "Oh, my manager hates me."

好吧，不仅仅是你，就像，“哦，我的经理讨厌我。”

Lenny Rachitsky: It's like, "Okay, other people are saying this." And then I love this phrase of, we both know where it's not just me telling you this.

Lenny Rachitsky：就像，“好吧，其他人也这么说。”然后我喜欢这句话，我们都知道这不仅仅是我告诉你的。

It's like, "You also know this.

就像是，“你也知道这一点。

I know you're smart and you also know that this is, something is wrong here." And then this goal of, here's what we need to .

我知道你很聪明，你也知道，这里出了问题。”然后这个目标，这就是我们需要的。

You're like very clear call to action, almost action item, like leave this meeting with, "Let's just be aligned on this thing."

你就像非常明确的行动号召，几乎是行动项目，就像在会议结束时说：“让我们在这件事上保持一致。”

Alisa Cohn: Yeah, thanks for calling those out.

艾莉莎·科恩：是的，谢谢你指出这些。

I hope, and again, what I'm trying to convey in my tone is also, "You know what?

我再次希望我想用我的语气表达的是：“你知道吗？

It's Tuesday.

今天是星期二。

We got to have this conversation.

我们必须进行这次对话。

I'm sure it's going to end well.

我确信一切都会有一个美好的结局。

I'm not mad." The whole point about my manager hates me, right?

我没有生气。”我的经理讨厌我，对吗？

"I'm not yelling at you." The more even keeled and even matter of fact you can be about something that's kind of just run-of-the-mill feedback, the better.

“我没有对你大喊大叫。”对于那些只是普通反馈的事情，你越冷静，甚至越实事求是越好。

And I think it's just also what I didn't say before, and I think it's also important is that, as you are recognizing that one of your jobs is to give this feedback, is that you have to build a relationship with people so they can hear you through the lens of, "Oh, Alisa wants to help me." Not, "Oh, Alisa hates me.

我认为这也是我之前没有说过的，而且我认为同样重要的是，当你认识到你的工作之一就是提供反馈时，你必须与人们建立关系，这样他们就能通过“哦，艾丽莎想帮助我”的镜头听到你的声音。不是，“哦，艾丽莎恨我。

It's always a problem."

这总是一个问题。”

Lenny Rachitsky: How did you start that phrase again?

Lenny Rachitsky：你是怎么又开始说这句话的？

Because the starting is always the hardest part for me.

因为开始对我来说总是最难的部分。

How do you kick off the conversation?

你如何开始谈话？

What was the couple sentences used?

这对夫妇用了什么句子？

Alisa Cohn: I wanted to have a conversation with you about some things I've been hearing from your peers about the way that you all are interacting together.

艾丽莎·科恩：我想与你们谈谈我从你们的同事那里听到的一些关于你们在一起互动的方式的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

So there's an element of, don't make it feel like a huge deal.

所以有一个因素，不要让它感觉很重要。

Just like, "I want to have this conversation with you about something." And it's just like, "Let's have this conversation and here's what we want to leave this conversation with."

就像，“我想和你谈谈某件事。”就像，“让我们进行这次对话，这就是我们想要结束这次对话的内容。”

Alisa Cohn: Yes.

艾莉莎·科恩：是的。

And I can't stress enough that it's actually really helpful to also have spent some time with Matilda or whoever saying, "Great job on the way that project landed." Or, "Hey, launches, when they happen on time and they're smooth, sometimes we don't notice anything.

我必须强调的是，花一些时间与玛蒂尔达或其他人一起说“项目落地过程中干得很好”，这实际上非常有帮助。或者，“嘿，发射，当它们准时发生并且进展顺利时，有时我们不会注意到任何事情。

I want you to notice, we didn't notice anything.

我想让你注意到，我们什么都没注意到。

That's fantastic.

太棒了。

You did a good job in that launch," or whatever it is.

你在那次发射中做得很好，”或者无论是什么。

Because then, you've had the conversation with them to give them positive feedback and point out what's working, that builds the relationship so that you have the lens of, "Oh, yeah.

因为那时，你已经与他们进行了对话，给他们积极的反馈，并指出什么是有效的，从而建立了关系，这样你就有了“哦，是的。

When something's working, they tell me.

当某件事起作用时，他们会告诉我。

When something's not working, they tell me, too." That's how you build trust as well.

当出现问题时，他们也会告诉我。”这也是您建立信任的方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: They want to be criticizing them .

Lenny Rachitsky：他们想批评他们。

We need to have another conversation what we're hearing about, problems .

我们需要再次讨论我们所听到的问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: Obviously, if you say it the same way every single time, they're going to feel like this is weird.

Lenny Rachitsky：显然，如果你每次都用同样的方式说，他们会觉得这很奇怪。

Do you recommend it's this kind of Mad Libs approach or is it make it your own as much as you can?

您是否建议采用这种疯狂的自由方法，还是尽可能将其变成您自己的方法？

What are kind of the key?

钥匙有哪些种类？

Or is it like, here's actually how you want to say it every time?

或者，这实际上是你每次都想说的？

Alisa Cohn: In my book and when I work with my clients, I give specific scripts and what I will regularly say when I'm working with my clients is, "Okay, so this is how I would do it," and then I'll land it for them.

Alisa Cohn：在我的书中，当我与客户合作时，我会给出具体的脚本，当我与客户合作时我会经常说的是，“好吧，所以这就是我要做的事情”，然后我会为他们找到它。

But they have to make it their own.

但他们必须把它变成自己的。

You always have to make it your own and I don't think it's a problem of doing it the same way every time.

你总是必须把它变成你自己的，我不认为每次都以同样的方式做是有问题的。

It's not like people are going to notice you because you're talking about different topics, theoretically.

从理论上讲，人们不会因为你们谈论不同的主题而注意到您。

If you have a formula that can work for you, that's going to motivate you to do it, that is what's important.

如果你有一个适合你的公式，它就会激励你去做，这才是重要的。

And what's important is that it's neutral, not loading on or not venting on someone and not unloading on someone.

重要的是它是中立的，不会给某人带来负担或发泄，也不会向某人倾诉。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that we started with this one because it feels like the most common one of just your employee is underperforming and you want to make sure they understand and adjust.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢我们从这个开始，因为感觉就像是最常见的员工表现不佳，你想确保他们理解并调整。

What if you're not hearing something from a bunch of people?

如果你没有听到一群人的声音怎么办？

What if it's just your perception of their writing?

如果这只是您对他们写作的看法怎么办？

You need to work on your writing skills or you're coming in late.

你需要提高你的写作技巧，否则你就会迟到。

Is there another way you phrase it where it's not, "I'm hearing it from other people?"

有没有其他的表达方式，而不是“我从其他人那里听到的？”

Alisa Cohn: Oh, absolutely.

艾丽莎·科恩：哦，当然。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

So I'll talk about writing.

那我就谈谈写作吧。

I think it would be something like, okay, "Matilda, part of your job is to be able to create these documents and I appreciate that you do them on time.

我认为这会是这样的，好吧，“玛蒂尔达，你工作的一部分就是能够创建这些文档，我很感激你按时完成它们。

What I've observed is that they can often be not as structured as I'd like them to be and they also lack a conclusion.

我观察到，它们往往不像我希望的那样结构化，而且也缺乏结论。

So what I'd love you to do is look at these three or four examples of some folks who are doing them really well and see if you can model your writing on theirs.

所以我希望你看一下这三四个做得很好的人的例子，看看你是否可以模仿他们的写作。

If you need to take additional classes or if you need help in any way, let me know.

如果您需要参加额外的课程或需要任何方式的帮助，请告诉我。

But ultimately, I want to get your writing to the level where everybody is appreciating what you bring to the table because the level of your writing really reflects the level of your thinking."

但最终，我希望你的写作达到每个人都能欣赏你所带来的水平，因为你的写作水平确实反映了你的思维水平。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Mm-hmm.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：嗯嗯。

Wow, I like that.

哇，我喜欢这样。

I'd want to follow your advice if I got that.

如果我得到的话，我想听从你的建议。

So the way you started that is what I've observed, which also is not like, "Here's what I think" or "Here's what you just need to do." It's more like, "Here's what I've noticed, here's what I've seen, here's what I've observed about what you're doing." And then it reminds me of, what is it, nonviolent communication, that whole framework of just focus on what you see, not what is wrong with them, not what they've done.

所以你开始的方式就是我所观察到的，这也不像“这就是我的想法”或“这就是你需要做的”。它更像是，“这是我注意到的，这是我看到的，这是我观察到的关于你正在做的事情。”然后它让我想起，非暴力沟通是什么，整个框架只关注你所看到的，而不是他们出了什么问题，而不是他们做了什么。

I guess, is there anything there you want to say of just the importance of focusing on what you've heard from people or what you've observed versus maybe what people often do instead?

我想，对于关注你从人们那里听到的或你观察到的事情而不是人们经常做的事情的重要性，你有什么想说的吗？

Alisa Cohn: Yeah, I mean you just really said it and I think it's such an important point, observable facts.

艾丽莎·科恩：是的，我的意思是你确实说过，我认为这是非常重要的一点，是可观察到的事实。

The idea that this is not a judgment.

认为这不是一个判断。

This is not...

这不是...

Sort of as less judgy as possible is also very helpful.

尽可能少评判也是非常有帮助的。

It makes it neutral.

它使它变得中立。

It's observable facts and it's also sort of based on expectations, right?

这是可观察到的事实，也是基于预期的，对吧？

So the writing is, we expect it to be at a certain level and it's not that way.

所以写作时，我们期望它达到一定的水平，但事实并非如此。

And here are the reasons it's not, the specific reasons, it's not.

以下是它不是的原因，具体原因是它不是。

Alisa Cohn: The way you interact with your peers, it's important to be at a certain standard, and here's why.

Alisa Cohn：在与同事互动的方式中，达到一定的标准很重要，原因如下。

Because when we all work together, we're going to be able to execute and when we don't, unfortunately we won't be able to.

因为当我们共同努力时，我们将能够执行，而如果我们不合作，不幸的是我们将无法执行。

So you staying in sync with them is important and the observation is that they don't feel fully in sync with you.

因此，你与他们保持同步很重要，但观察结果是，他们感觉与你并不完全同步。

Alisa Cohn: And so every time we talk about this, it doesn't become this, "Oh, I don't know.

艾丽莎·科恩：所以每次我们谈论这个时，它不会变成这样，“哦，我不知道。

I just feel..." By the way, some things you have to give feedback on and they are kind of a feeling and those are more difficult, but so many things if you do the work to really think about what is the observable data, I always ask my clients, what's my evidence that this is happening?

我只是觉得……”顺便说一句，有些事情你必须提供反馈，它们是一种感觉，而且这些事情比较困难，但是如果你认真思考什么是可观察数据，那么很多事情我总是问我的客户，我有什么证据表明这种情况正在发生？

And you have to spend some time thinking about it, but it's really worth it because it makes the feedback easier for you to give and easier for them to hear.

你必须花一些时间思考它，但这确实值得，因为它使你更容易给出反馈，也更容易让他们听到。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there anything else along the lines of this specific type of feedback that is worth sharing before we move on to a different type of feedback?

Lenny Rachitsky：在我们转向不同类型的反馈之前，还有什么与这种特定类型的反馈值得分享的吗？

Alisa Cohn: Well, I think just that the reason, one of the many reasons that people have gone uncomfortable giving feedback is that somebody might get defensive or they might start crying as we talked about.

艾丽莎·科恩：嗯，我认为人们在提供反馈时感到不舒服的众多原因之一是，有人可能会变得防御，或者他们可能会在我们谈论时开始哭泣。

And so I have a script also, which is if someone gets defensive, which is it's like I'm giving you this feedback and you're getting defensive and I say, "Well, let's pause for a second.

所以我也有一个脚本，如果有人变得防御性，就好像我给你这个反馈，而你变得防御性，我说，“好吧，让我们暂停一下。

First of all, I want you to know that I'm telling you this actually, just to make you better because I know how important your career is to you.

首先，我想让你知道，我实际上告诉你这些，只是为了让你变得更好，因为我知道你的职业对你来说有多重要。

I know how important the success is to you and it's important to me too as your leader.

我知道成功对您来说有多重要，对我作为您的领导者也很重要。

The second thing is, my observation is that you're getting a little bit emotional.

第二件事是，我的观察是你变得有点情绪化。

I want to know if we can continue having this conversation now or if we need to kind of pause it.

我想知道我们现在是否可以继续进行这个对话，或者我们是否需要暂停一下。

At the end of the day, we really have to have this conversation and I really want to see you make changes, but I understand you might need a few moments to digest it."

归根结底，我们真的必须进行这次对话，我真的很希望看到你做出改变，但我知道你可能需要一些时间来消化它。”

Alisa Cohn: The importance of that for you is not even what you say, but that you have prepared and you are prepared for if someone has that kind of reaction and that you don't have to, yourself, react to it.

艾丽莎·科恩：对你来说，这一点的重要性甚至不在于你说了什么，而在于你已经做好准备，并且你已经准备好应对有人做出这种反应，而你自己不必对此做出反应。

You know, "No, I'm not doing that.

你知道，“不，我不会那样做。

No, no, no, no, whatever." And you can say, "Yes, you are." Now we're in a fight and that is not cool for anybody.

不，不，不，不，无论如何。”你可以说：“是的，你是。”现在我们正处于一场战斗中，这对任何人来说都不是什么好事情。

It's certainly not cool for you as a leader.

作为领导者，这对你来说肯定不酷。

So it gives you the opportunity to recognize that you have another tool in your toolkit rather than just react.

因此，它让您有机会认识到您的工具箱中还有另一个工具，而不仅仅是做出反应。

Lenny Rachitsky: So if you find yourself feeling defensive or they are just not hearing and just fighting back, the tool is just pause.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以，如果你发现自己感到防御，或者他们只是没有听到并且只是反击，那么这个工具就是暂停。

Let's just pause for a moment and it feels like there's kind of two parts to which you just shared.

让我们暂停一下，感觉您刚刚分享了两部分。

One is, remind them why this is important to them and why you're talking about this.

一是提醒他们为什么这对他们很重要以及为什么你要谈论这个。

And then two is, if there's just emotions kind of taking over, give them a chance to like, "Let's just pause and maybe come back to this because maybe you're not in the right state right now to listen."

第二个是，如果只是情绪占据主导，给他们一个机会，“让我们暂停一下，也许回到这个话题，因为也许你现在的状态不适合倾听。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Sometimes people get upset when you mention like, "You're getting emotional," or I don't know.

Lenny Rachitsky：有时，当你提到“你变得情绪化”时，人们会感到不安，或者我不知道。

Is that a thing that you deal with of just like, "How dare you say I'm feeling emotional?" I'm just...

你是否会像“你怎么敢说我情绪激动？”那样处理这样的事情？我只是...

Alisa Cohn: I'm not emotional.

艾丽莎·科恩：我不情绪化。

Why do you think emotional?

为什么你会觉得情绪化？

Right, exactly.

对，完全正确。

Yes, of course.

是的当然。

Now, when someone's crying, they're obviously getting emotional.

现在，当有人哭泣时，他们显然会变得情绪化。

When they're defensive, it's possible that you might want to use a different word.

当他们处于防御状态时，您可能想使用不同的词。

I can see that this is really upsetting you or this is really triggering you, or I can see that the temperature between us has just changed.

我可以看到这真的让你心烦意乱，或者这真的触发了你，或者我可以看到我们之间的温度刚刚发生了变化。

You could say something like that.

你可以这样说。

I do think also it's helpful to know your people because sometimes you could realize that actually they can deal with that, but then sometimes you have to really the delicate words that you need to use to pause the conversation.

我确实认为了解你的员工也很有帮助，因为有时你可能意识到他们实际上可以处理这个问题，但有时你必须真正使用你需要用来暂停对话的微妙词语。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

And I find, to your point, it's helpful to you too as the person giving it.

我发现，就你的观点而言，它对你作为提供者也有帮助。

And I feel like sometimes, you may be feeling like I should just pull back and maybe I'm wrong, maybe they're right, maybe I should stop and instead this gives you a chance to know I'm actually, I can't.

我觉得有时候，你可能觉得我应该退缩，也许我错了，也许他们是对的，也许我应该停下来，相反，这让你有机会知道我实际上是，我不能。

I need to stay strong about what I believe because I...

我需要对我的信念保持坚强，因为我......

You put so much thought and effort into this already, it's unlikely you're just like, oh, totally wrong about what you're saying.

你已经为此付出了如此多的思考和努力，你不太可能只是说，哦，你所说的完全错误。

Alisa Cohn: Yeah, exactly.

艾莉莎·科恩：是的，完全正确。

There's something going on.

有事发生。

There's something going on.

有事发生。

And then also, the whole point about it being a conversation is that actually it's a conversation.

而且，作为一场对话的全部意义在于，它实际上是一场对话。

Actually, Lenny, if you have a different point of view, I would like to hear it.

事实上，莱尼，如果你有不同的观点，我很想听听。

Let's talk about it, but we can't keep going on like this, where I don't feel I can count on you for whatever it is that we're talking about.

我们来谈谈吧，但我们不能再这样下去了，无论我们正在谈论什么，我都觉得我不能指望你。

So we need to have this conversation and recreate a set of expectations between ourselves.

因此，我们需要进行这样的对话，并在我们之间重新建立一系列期望。

Ultimately, that kind of conversation has the potential to really build the relationship and build trust, and that's another reason I encourage everybody to get over their discomfort and to lean into having these conversations because on the other side of that, is a much better, stronger connection.

最终，这种对话有可能真正建立关系和建立信任，这也是我鼓励每个人克服不适并倾向于进行这些对话的另一个原因，因为另一方面，这是一种更好、更牢固的联系。

Lenny Rachitsky: And especially if you do them well.

Lenny Rachitsky：尤其是如果你做得很好的话。

Lenny Rachitsky: Following this advice.

Lenny Rachitsky：遵循这个建议。

So okay, so again, if somebody's feeling defensive, can you again say how you start that, if you notice that?

好吧，那么，如果有人感到防御，如果你注意到这一点，你能再说一遍你是如何开始的吗？

And then I'll highlight the two elements again of the...

然后我将再次强调这两个要素......

Alisa Cohn: So the way to pause is to actually say, "Let's just pause for a second because I'm feeling the energy has changed and I can see that you're getting a little bit heated by what I'm saying and I want you to know that I have no intention of upsetting you.

艾丽莎·科恩：所以暂停的方法实际上是说：“让我们暂停一下，因为我感觉能量已经改变了，我可以看到你对我所说的话感到有点激动，我想让你知道我无意让你不安。

I just want to be able to talk to you about the things that are going to help you in your career."

我只是想和你谈谈对你的职业生涯有帮助的事情。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

And I love, again, just the reminder of here's why this is important to you, here's the benefit to you and why this will help you.

我再次喜欢提醒您，这就是为什么这对您很重要，这对您有好处，以及为什么这会对您有所帮助。

And then it's like, "Okay, let's just maybe take a pause and come back to this conversation if you're feeling like this isn't the best time." Awesome.

然后就好像，“好吧，如果你觉得现在不是最好的时机，我们可以暂停一下，然后再回到这个话题。”惊人的。

Anything else along that line before we go to another type of a hard conversation?

在我们进行另一种艰难的对话之前，还有什么其他的事情吗？

Alisa Cohn: I mean, I can talk all day about this , but I'm happy to move on.

艾丽莎·科恩：我的意思是，我可以整天谈论这个问题，但我很高兴继续前进。

Lenny Rachitsky: Well, let's pick another topic.

Lenny Rachitsky：好吧，我们换个话题吧。

I know you have kind of five buckets and types of conversation.

我知道你有五种不同的谈话方式。

Maybe the promotion one.

也许是促销一。

That feels like I think we're in performance review season.

我认为我们正处于绩效评估季节。

It feels like these are happening a bunch.

感觉这些事情正在发生。

What do you suggest when someone's being told they're not going to get the promotion they expected or wanted?

当有人被告知他们不会获得他们期望或想要的晋升时，你有什么建议？

Alisa Cohn: Of course that's challenging.

艾丽莎·科恩：当然，这很有挑战性。

So again, getting your mindset right, recognizing they're disappointed, they're going to be disappointed, recognizing how you felt, the time that when you didn't get a promotion or whatever.

所以，再次强调，要摆正心态，认识到他们感到失望，他们将会感到失望，认识到你的感受，当你没有得到晋升或其他什么的时候。

And so kind of coming to it with some compassion.

带着一些同情心来对待它。

And also, you have to get your reasoning right.

而且，你的推理必须正确。

So sometimes people think they should get a promotion because they were here for a year or whatever.

所以有时人们认为他们应该得到晋升，因为他们在这里工作了一年或其他什么。

Sometimes people think they should get a promotion because they're the only internal candidate who's qualified for this or they might have a sense of themselves succeeding or achieving that is more inflated maybe than you see them.

有时，人们认为他们应该获得晋升，因为他们是唯一有资格获得晋升的内部候选人，或者他们可能有一种自己成功或实现的感觉，这种感觉可能比你看到的更夸张。

So trying to think about where they're coming from.

所以试着思考它们来自哪里。

Alisa Cohn: And then the conversation is just, "Matilda, I know this is going to be challenging for you to hear.

艾丽莎·科恩：然后对话就是：“玛蒂尔达，我知道这对你来说是一个挑战。

I know you were hoping to get that promotion, but I want to let you know that we are going to actually be looking for an external candidate.

我知道您希望获得晋升，但我想让您知道我们实际上正在寻找外部候选人。

I want to give you a few thoughts about why.

我想给你一些关于原因的想法。

First of all, in discussing this with my peers, I'm realizing that we need someone who has done this role multiple times in the past and has that experience.

首先，在与我的同事讨论这个问题时，我意识到我们需要一个过去多次担任过这个角色并且拥有这种经验的人。

Number two, I think it's really important that they have an expertise in a specific realm that we've identified as really important.

第二，我认为他们在我们认为非常重要的特定领域拥有专业知识非常重要。

So for those reasons, we're going to bring someone in from the outside, not going to promote you, but I want you to know this.

因此，出于这些原因，我们将从外部引进某人，而不是晋升你，但我想让你知道这一点。

Number one, it's really important to me that you're able to succeed in your career here.

第一，你能够在这里取得职业成功对我来说非常重要。

And so I want to continue to help you find opportunities to build your skills and to advance.

因此，我想继续帮助您找到培养技能和进步的机会。

And then number two, when we bring this person in, I'm committed to finding someone who's a great people leader, who is going to help you build those skills."

第二，当我们引进这个人时，我致力于寻找一位优秀的领导者，他将帮助你培养这些技能。”

Lenny Rachitsky: So a few elements there that stood out to me.

Lenny Rachitsky：有一些元素对我来说很突出。

One is just being very upfront and not bearing the lead.

一种是非常坦率，而不是带头。

Telling them very early, "Here's what I've decided." As you said it, I could see my heart sinking immediately when I feel that.

很早就告诉他们，“这就是我的决定。”正如你所说，当我感觉到这一点时，我的心立即沉下去。

So at least that's over and then it's, here's why.

所以至少这一切都结束了，这就是原因。

And that starts to help you feel like, "Okay, I get it.

这开始帮助你感觉，“好吧，我明白了。

I understand at least how you thought about this." And then there's the hope for the future, your painting of, here's how I can get there eventually.

我至少明白你是怎么想的。”然后是对未来的希望，你的画，这就是我最终能到达那里的方式。

Alisa Cohn: Yes, that hope for the future is so important and I think sometimes we're such in a rush to kind of deliver the bad news that we forget there's a human being over there who needs hope for the future.

艾莉莎·科恩：是的，对未来的希望是如此重要，我认为有时我们太急于传达坏消息，以至于我们忘记了那里有一个人需要对未来的希望。

And hopefully.

并希望。

If they're a good employee, hopefully they have hope for the future.

如果他们是一名好员工，希望他们对未来充满希望。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

Is there anything else to that script that you think is really highlighting or do you think I touched on the key elements?

您认为该脚本还有其他真正突出的内容吗？或者您认为我触及了关键要素？

Alisa Cohn: I think you touched on the key elements.

艾丽莎·科恩：我认为您触及了关键要素。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

And again, the way you started is, I have some bad news for you or I have some disappointing news for you.

再说一次，你开始的方式是，我有一些坏消息要告诉你，或者我有一些令人失望的消息要告诉你。

Alisa Cohn: Yeah, just get right into it.

Alisa Cohn：是的，直接开始吧。

Yeah.

是的。

By the way, the other piece on that might be, if it's appropriate, I'd love you to digest this information and then let's talk about it again next week to see what you've come up with or see how you feel about it because you want to send, this is not the script, this is for me to you.

顺便说一句，另一件事可能是，如果合适的话，我希望你能消化这些信息，然后我们下周再讨论一下，看看你有什么想法，或者看看你对此有何感受，因为你想发送，这不是剧本，这是我给你的。

You want to send the, I care about you message because that's the other thing.

你想发送“我关心你”的信息，因为那是另一回事。

In the workplace, people, they're going through all their feelings, all their emotions, disappointments.

在工作场所，人们会经历所有的感受、所有的情绪、失望。

They're going to go home and tell their spouse, didn't get the promotion or whatever.

他们会回家告诉他们的配偶，没有得到升职或其他什么。

It's going to loom large.

它将会显得很大。

It's going to be demoralizing.

这会让人士气低落。

Alisa Cohn: When you, as a leader signal a lot, I care about you, I care about your feelings, I care that you're disappointed, I care about your career, you are always going to be able to help people stay resilient in the face of setbacks and ultimately, do extra work, do the right work for you and be engaged in your company because you've spent the time and energy making sure they know that even when things are not going their way, they have an ally in you.

艾丽莎·科恩：作为一名领导者，当你发出很多信号时，我关心你，我关心你的感受，我关心你失望，我关心你的职业生涯，你总是能够帮助人们在面对挫折时保持弹性，最终，做额外的工作，为你做正确的工作，并参与你的公司，因为你花了时间和精力确保他们知道，即使事情不顺利，他们也有你的盟友。

Lenny Rachitsky: What do you do if they just disagree, if they're just like, "But I do have those skills and I don't think this is fair." Thoughts on responding to that sort of feedback?

Lenny Rachitsky：如果他们不同意，如果他们只是说“但我确实有这些技能，但我认为这不公平”，你该怎么办？对回应此类反馈有何想法？

I guess, that's the defensiveness stuff.

我想，这就是防御性的东西。

Alisa Cohn: Yeah, that's the defensiveness stuff.

艾丽莎·科恩：是的，这就是防御性的东西。

And again, I hope you've done your homework to identify that actually that person doesn't have those skills and if there is a for example, but I do have those skills or sometimes people, I think more, even more often, they don't respond to what you just said.

再说一遍，我希望你已经做好功课，确定那个人实际上不具备这些技能，如果有，但我确实具备这些技能，或者有时人们，我认为更多，甚至更常见的是，他们不会回应你刚才所说的话。

They will instead explain to you that they've been here for a year or they're the only internal candidate or their peer got promoted.

相反，他们会向您解释他们已经在这里工作一年了，或者他们是唯一的内部候选人，或者他们的同事得到了晋升。

Alisa Cohn: Right, they'll sort of explain to you things which are not part of your decision-making process and then it's helpful for you to say something like, "Yeah, listen, Matilda, I really understand that you were thinking that after a year, you'd get promoted around here.

艾丽莎·科恩：是的，他们会向你解释一些不属于你决策过程的事情，然后你可以这样说，“是的，听着，玛蒂尔达，我真的理解你在想一年后，你会在这里升职。

And in the past, I do think because of the stage of our company, probably people have been promoted at that period.

而且在过去，我确实认为由于我们公司所处的阶段，可能人们在那个时期就得到了晋升。

That's not the place we're at right now.

那不是我们现在所处的地方。

As we scale, we really need to think about not just what we need for today and tomorrow, but for the future.

随着规模的扩大，我们不仅需要考虑今天和明天的需求，还需要考虑未来的需求。

And that's why I want these specialized skills in here.

这就是为什么我希望在这里拥有这些专业技能。

I think it's going to help the entire company."

我认为这将对整个公司有所帮助。”

Alisa Cohn: So that's an example of a discussion that you could have.

Alisa Cohn：这就是您可以进行讨论的一个例子。

I do have the skills.

我确实有技能。

That's kind of interesting.

这有点有趣。

I'd love to hear what you see as those skills.

我很想听听您对这些技能的看法。

And it's not a problem to have the conversation right there then, but if there's a "Yes, I do, no, I don't, yes, I do, no, you don't," that pushback is never productive.

那时进行对话并不是问题，但如果存在“是的，我愿意，不，我不，是的，我愿意，不，你不同意”，那么这种抵制永远不会有成效。

And so, that's where you want to probably again take a pause and say, "Listen, I totally hear you.

所以，这就是你可能想要再次暂停并说：“听着，我完全听到了。

You and I have a different point of view about this.

你和我对此有不同的看法。

I'm not sure if it's productive to continue to discussing right now.

我不确定现在继续讨论是否有成效。

Let's talk about it again in a week.

一周后再谈吧。

But I also want you to know this is a decision that I've made."

但我也想让你知道这是我做出的决定。”

Lenny Rachitsky: I love though, when they come back to you and like, "But here's X, Y, Z." And you're like, "That's not what I was saying necessarily." I love that you basically mirror back.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢他们回到你身边并喜欢说“但是这里有 X、Y、Z。”你会说，“这不一定是我所说的。”我喜欢你基本上镜像回来。

I hear what, I understand you believe, I understand you've been here for a year.

我听到了什么，我明白你相信，我明白你已经在这里一年了。

I understand you're the only internal candidate," like making them feel very heard.

我知道你是唯一的内部候选人，”就像让他们感觉自己被倾听了一样。

That's a really powerful mechanic there.

这是一个非常强大的机制。

That is a good tool.

这是一个很好的工具。

Is there another script that you think might be helpful to talk through that is a common hard conversation people have?

您认为还有另一个脚本可能有助于讨论人们常见的艰难对话吗？

Alisa Cohn: Well, the hardest conversation is firing someone.

艾丽莎·科恩：嗯，最困难的对话就是解雇某人。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's do it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：让我们开始吧。

Let's get into it.

让我们开始吧。

Alisa Cohn: .

艾莉莎·科恩：。

I'm willing to get into it.

我愿意投入其中。

I just want to say two things about that.

对此我只想说两件事。

First of all, when you're firing someone, the hope is that it's not a surprise to them.

首先，当你解雇某人时，希望他们不会感到惊讶。

You've had multiple conversations with them that they're not living up to your expectations.

您与他们进行过多次交谈，发现他们没有达到您的期望。

It's essential because the truth is, you want to create a culture where people are not surprised by being fired.

这很重要，因为事实是，你想要创造一种文化，让人们不会因被解雇而感到惊讶。

And that's not even true for this one person you're dealing with.

对于与你打交道的这个人来说，情况甚至并非如此。

That's true for the entire company.

对于整个公司来说都是如此。

So just kind of getting in the mindset of recognizing that if you shied away from those conversations, kind of like, "You're the problem here and you have some catch up to do."

因此，只要进入一种心态，认识到如果你回避这些对话，就有点像，“你就是这里的问题，你需要采取一些措施。”

Alisa Cohn: The second thing is that before you fire someone, I think it's helpful to have the conversation before the firing conversation because something you said Lenny is like, "Oh, but maybe I'm wrong.

艾丽莎·科恩：第二件事是，在你解雇某人之前，我认为在解雇之前进行对话是有帮助的，因为你说莱尼就像是，“哦，但也许我错了。

Maybe I'm not sure." And that bleeds into, "Maybe I haven't been clear with this person." Regularly with my clients, I'll say, "Okay, have you been crystal clear about what you need from this person?" And what they always do is the hand motion like well, sort of, but well, maybe.

也许我不确定。”这就变成了，“也许我还没有和这个人说清楚。”我经常对我的客户说，“好吧，你清楚地知道你需要从这个人那里得到什么吗？”他们总是做的就是手势，就像好吧，有点，但好吧，也许。

Which means no, which means no. You've not been crystal clear or you don't perceive even crystal clear.

这意味着不，这意味着不。你还没有变得非常清晰，或者你甚至没有感知到非常清晰。

The way to make sure that you're crystal clear is by having the conversation before it comes to that.

确保你的想法非常清楚的方法是在讨论之前进行对话。

Alisa Cohn: What that looks like is, "Listen, Matilda, we have to have a difficult conversation right now.

艾丽莎·科恩：看起来是这样的：“听着，玛蒂尔达，我们现在必须进行一次艰难的对话。

I've talked to you multiple times about coordinating with your peers and not having them surprised about missed deadlines, and I've talked to you multiple times about keeping your team in the loop on different things.

我已经多次与您讨论过如何与您的同事进行协调，不要让他们对错过最后期限感到惊讶，并且我也多次与您讨论过让您的团队了解不同事情的情况。

After six months of these conversations, I want you to know that the peers continue to feel like that you're operating on your own without coordinating with them.

经过六个月的这些对话后，我想让你知道，同事们仍然觉得你在独自运作，没有与他们协调。

And I continue to hear from your team that they're not fully on the same page.

我不断从你们的团队那里听到他们的意见并不完全一致。

I need you to know that this is very important.

我需要你知道这非常重要。

I need you to fix this within the next 30 days.

我需要你在接下来的 30 天内解决这个问题。

Otherwise, I'm sorry to say, we're going to have to find a way to part ways because I can't keep this going with you.

否则，我很遗憾地说，我们将不得不找到一种方法来分道扬镳，因为我无法和你继续这样下去。

I know you have it in you to change.

我知道你有改变的意愿。

I value all you bring to the table, but if you don't fix these things, we're not going to have a future together."

我重视你带来的一切，但如果你不解决这些问题，我们就不会共同拥有未来。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, that was great.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，那太棒了。

So it starts with being upfront.

因此，一切都从提前开始。

This is a difficult conversation, just to set expectations.

这是一次艰难的谈话，只是为了设定期望。

They're like, "Oh, shit." And then it seems like you come back to, again, multiple times this happened, observing here's what's happening.

他们就像，“哦，该死。”然后你似乎再次回过头来，多次发生这种情况，观察正在发生的事情。

It's happened multiple times.

这种事已经发生过很多次了。

I keep hearing from multiple people, be a problem.

我不断收到很多人的来信，这是一个问题。

And so it's just like, "I need you to know," and you're just very clear.

所以这就像是，“我需要你知道”，而你就非常清楚了。

"Here's what will happen if this doesn't change."

“如果这种情况不改变，将会发生以下情况。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

And I love that you also give them a little, there's always that hope for who they are and how you see them as.

我喜欢你也给他们一点，他们总是对他们是谁以及你如何看待他们充满希望。

They're not worthless.

它们并非一文不值。

It's just like, "You are great at a lot of things.

就像，“你在很多事情上都很擅长。

You have these skills.

你有这些技能。

You're great at blah, blah, blah, but still this is a big problem." And it's communicating how critical this is.

你很擅长废话，废话，废话，但这仍然是一个大问题。”它传达了这是多么重要。

.

。

Alisa Cohn: Yeah, and it's a deal breaker.

艾莉莎·科恩：是的，这会破坏交易。

It's a deal breaker.

这是一个破坏交易的事情。

Right?

对吗？

Alisa Cohn: If you have so many talents, but if you can't do these two things, then it's a deal breaker for all of us.

Alisa Cohn：如果你有这么多的才能，但如果你不能做到这两件事，那么这对我们所有人来说都是一个交易破坏者。

Alisa Cohn: And I think it's important to really sort of see that both.

Alisa Cohn：我认为真正看到这两点很重要。

Sometimes people think, "Well, but I'm so talented." Yeah, but your talents are not going to make up for these two deal breakers.

有时人们会想：“好吧，但我很有才华。”是的，但是你的才华并不能弥补这两个交易破坏者。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

And I feel like I know we were going to talk about the firing conversation, but I think this is even more important than that because hopefully, this addresses the problem and you don't need to fire them, which is more valuable.

我觉得我知道我们要讨论解雇的谈话，但我认为这比那更重要，因为希望这能解决问题，你不需要解雇他们，这更有价值。

Alisa Cohn: Yes.

艾莉莎·科恩：是的。

Yeah, hopefully.

是的，希望如此。

But even if you do, it's actually easier because you've already had the conversation.

但即使你这样做了，实际上也更容易，因为你已经进行过对话。

Right?

对吗？

They're not surprised.

他们并不感到惊讶。

It's clear.

很清楚。

We've had the discussion.

我们已经进行过讨论。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

So basically the script is like, "There's going to be a difficult conversation.

所以基本上剧本是这样的，“将会有一场艰难的对话。

I've seen multiple times this thing and we've talked multiple times and it's still not fixed and here's what I just want to be very clear about." Is there also a script you have for just actually doing the firing or is that less scriptable?

我已经多次看到过这个事情，我们已经讨论过多次，但它仍然没有得到解决，这就是我只想非常清楚的事情。”您是否还有一个用于实际进行射击的脚本，或者是不太可编写的脚本？

Alisa Cohn: Well, the script for doing the firing is again, please everybody, talk to your HR professional.

艾丽莎·科恩：嗯，解雇的剧本再次是，请大家与您的人力资源专业人员交谈。

Talk to your lawyer.

和你的律师谈谈。

Okay, I'm not a lawyer, I'm afraid.

好吧，恐怕我不是律师。

So you have to make sure that you're all buttoned up on what you're going to do.

所以你必须确保你已经做好了要做的事情。

But the conversation is actually very simple, which is just, "Matilda, we talked about this multiple times.

但对话其实很简单，就是“玛蒂尔达，我们多次讨论过这个问题。

The last time we had this conversation, I told you I needed you to make these changes.

上次我们进行这次谈话时，我告诉过你我需要你做出这些改变。

You haven't made these changes and we're going to part ways.

你还没有做出这些改变，我们就要分道扬镳了。

So I have here, Sarah from HR or whatever, and we're going to talk through the logistics of that.

我这里有来自人力资源部或其他部门的莎拉，我们将讨论这件事的后勤工作。

I'm happy to have a longer conversation with you, but I want you to know we've made the decision to terminate you."

我很高兴与你进行更长时间的交谈，但我想让你知道我们已经决定解雇你。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Feels very reasonable to me.

Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得非常合理。

Is there anything else along these lines?

还有其他类似的事情吗？

Alisa Cohn: I think what I want to say is that the conversations you need to have at work are not just difficult conversations.

Alisa Cohn：我想我想说的是，你在工作中需要进行的对话不仅仅是困难的对话。

What I call them is sort of delicate conversations because what I think people also shy away from is just simple praise, specific praise.

我称之为微妙的对话，因为我认为人们也会回避简单的赞美，具体的赞美。

And I think it's really important to get in the habit of pointing out what your people are doing well as carefully as you need to prepare for pointing out what they need to improve.

我认为养成仔细指出员工做得好的习惯非常重要，就像你需要准备指出他们需要改进的地方一样。

And sometimes leaders feel like, "Yeah, it's all working.

有时领导者会觉得，“是的，一切都很有效。

It's all working.

一切正常。

I don't have to tell you." Or if I do tell you, it's kind of like "Good job." Right?

我不必告诉你。”或者如果我告诉你，那就有点像“干得好。”对吗？

One time a leader or a manager I was doing in a training program, she said, "I don't like getting positive feedback.

有一次我在培训项目中担任领导或经理时，她说：“我不喜欢得到积极的反馈。

I only like getting negative feedback." And I said, "How come?" And she said, "Oh, positive feedback is just like, oh, good job.

我只喜欢得到负面反馈。”我说，“怎么会？”她说，“哦，积极的反馈就像，哦，干得好。

Negative feedback, you can learn something.

负面反馈，你可以学到一些东西。

You get something from it."

你可以从中得到一些东西。”

Alisa Cohn: So the positive feedback should have the same standard, which is, "I saw the way you ran that launch, it was fantastic.

Alisa Cohn：因此，积极的反馈应该具有相同的标准，即“我看到了你们运行该发布的方式，这太棒了。

All these different benefits came from it.

所有这些不同的好处都来自它。

You're so organized, keep doing that." Or "The way you're keeping your peers in the loop, considering you've only been here three months is extraordinary.

你很有条理，继续这样做。”或者“考虑到你只在这里呆了三个月，你让你的同事了解情况的方式是非凡的。

I've never seen someone so communicative.

我从未见过如此善于沟通的人。

It's fantastic.

太棒了。

Keep doing that.

继续这样做。

That's really working for you." If you do that often enough, you do get in the...

这确实对你有用。”如果你经常这样做，你确实会进入......

First of all, it's positive, obviously.

首先，这显然是积极的。

You become in the habit of getting better at positive feedback, which is extremely motivating to people at work.

你会养成更好地提供积极反馈的习惯，这对工作中的人来说是非常有激励作用的。

It helps them see their progress because that person I just mentioned, she's barely keeping her head above water and she's having trouble fitting in or whatever, but you come around and point out the things that are working.

这可以帮助他们看到自己的进步，因为我刚才提到的那个人，她几乎无法将头露出水面，而且她很难适应或其他什么，但你过来指出正在发挥作用的事情。

Again, it's very morale boosting.

再次，这非常鼓舞士气。

She knows where she stands, and then one day, if you have to give her these difficult messages, you've already sort of laid the reservoir of goodwill.

她知道自己的立场，然后有一天，如果你必须向她传达这些困难的信息，那么你就已经奠定了善意的基础。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love giving positive feedback.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢提供积极的反馈。

It's obviously so much easier, but to your point, it's like you have to really think about how to do it well.

这显然要容易得多，但就你而言，你必须真正考虑如何做好它。

It's not just a, it's not that easy if you do it well, which is a really good point.

这不仅仅是一个，如果你做得好的话，这并不那么容易，这是一个非常好的一点。

And needs scripts for how to give really good positive feedback and have great conversations.

并且需要脚本来提供真正良好的积极反馈并进行精彩的对话。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's interesting.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这很有趣。

There's less demand for that.

对此的需求较少。

How do I have better great conversations or compliments?

我怎样才能进行更好的精彩对话或赞美？

Lenny Rachitsky: No man.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：没有。

Today's episode is brought to you by Liveblocks, the platform that turns your product into a place that users want to be.

今天的节目是由 Liveblocks 为您带来的，该平台可以将您的产品变成用户想要的地方。

With ready-made collaborative features, you can supercharge your product with experiences that only top tier companies have been able to perfect until now.

借助现成的协作功能，您可以通过迄今为止只有顶级公司才能完善的体验来增强您的产品。

Think AI copilots like Notion, multiplayer like Figma, comments and notifications like Linear and even collaborative editing like Google Docs, and all of that with minimal configuration or maintenance required.

想想像 Notion 这样的 AI 副驾驶，像 Figma 这样的多人游戏，像 Linear 这样的评论和通知，甚至像 Google Docs 这样的协作编辑，所有这些都需要最少的配置或维护。

Lenny Rachitsky: Companies from all kinds of industries and stages count on Liveblocks to drive engagement and growth in their products.

Lenny Rachitsky：来自各个行业和阶段的公司都依靠 Liveblocks 来推动其产品的参与度和增长。

Join them today and give your users an experience that turns them into daily active users.

立即加入他们，为您的用户提供将他们转变为日常活跃用户的体验。

Sign up for a free account today at liveblocks.io/lenny.

立即在 liveblocks.io/lenny 注册免费帐户。

I want to go on a little bit of a tangent, something that it's kind of touches on all the things we've been talking about, which is, you're big on helping leaders understand that their job is not to make employees happy.

我想稍微切题一下，这有点涉及到我们一直在谈论的所有事情，也就是说，你热衷于帮助领导者理解他们的工作不是让员工快乐。

What is your job instead?

你的工作是什么？

Why do people think this is their job to make their employees happy and what should they be thinking instead is their job as a leader?

为什么人们认为让员工快乐是他们的工作，而作为领导者他们应该思考什么？

Alisa Cohn: , I work with a lot of founders and so, don't forget that the entry-level position for a founder is leader, and they have it, they often not had a lot of other experiences being a leader or a manager, and so they're just doing the best they can.

Alisa Cohn：我和很多创始人一起工作，所以不要忘记，创始人的初级职位是领导者，他们拥有这个职位，他们通常没有很多作为领导者或经理的其他经验，所以他们只是尽力而为。

It makes sense, right?

这是有道理的，对吧？

And they kind of get all this information from other people and their HR leader wants to have a happy engaged workforce and they don't want to upset people for all the reasons we talked about, why you don't want to upset people.

他们从其他人那里获得所有这些信息，他们的人力资源领导者希望拥有一支快乐敬业的员工队伍，他们不想让人们心烦意乱，原因就是我们谈到的，为什么你不想让人们心烦意乱。

Nobody wants to upset people.

没有人愿意让别人不高兴。

Alisa Cohn: And so there's this idea of, they're trying to now be now be the leader who everyone loves and makes people happy.

艾丽莎·科恩：所以有这样的想法，他们现在正努力成为人人喜爱并让人们快乐的领导者。

So they would often bend over backwards to make people happy, to keep people, their morale up.

因此，他们常常竭尽全力让人们快乐，让人们保持士气。

But what really needs to happen very often is, we need to drive towards results.

但真正需要经常发生的是，我们需要努力取得成果。

And the way this system is working is not going to drive us towards results or this employee continuing to not really do a great job at their job and not really pushing themselves.

这个系统的运作方式不会推动我们取得成果，或者该员工继续在工作中表现不佳，也没有真正推动自己。

And you don't want to push them because you don't want to upset them, you don't want to give them difficult feedback, so you're just going to keep hoping it works out.

你不想推动他们，因为你不想让他们心烦意乱，你不想给他们困难的反馈，所以你只是继续希望事情能成功。

Alisa Cohn: Ultimately, that leads to the demise of your company.

艾丽莎·科恩：最终，这会导致你们公司的灭亡。

I mean, ultimately right, as you're a startup?

我的意思是，最终是对的，因为你是一家初创公司？

If you're not in a startup and you're a large company, it still is very subpar performance, obviously.

如果你不是一家初创公司，而是一家大公司，那么显然，它的表现仍然非常差。

And you're dancing around hoping and praying they're going to get there and they don't really know there's a problem.

你手舞足蹈地希望并祈祷他们能够到达那里，但他们并不真正知道存在问题。

And so, I think it's very misguided for leaders to have this notion that their most important role is to keep people happy, is to create this high engagement workforce.

因此，我认为领导者认为他们最重要的作用是让人们快乐，是创造一支高敬业度的员工队伍，这是非常误导的。

High engagement workforce is great.

高敬业度的员工队伍很棒。

Alisa Cohn: I think what that comes from is winning culture, which means we're set up for success.

Alisa Cohn：我认为这来自于胜利文化，这意味着我们已经为成功做好了准备。

We've got the structure for success, we have the culture for success, everyone understands their role, they know the impact of their role.

我们拥有成功的结构，我们拥有成功的文化，每个人都了解自己的角色，他们知道自己角色的影响。

So doing the work to figure out and help them figure out the impact of their role and that when they work together and achieve these milestones, they win and then we celebrate the wins and then we do it all over again.

因此，我们要努力弄清楚并帮助他们弄清楚自己角色的影响，当他们共同努力并实现这些里程碑时，他们就会获胜，然后我们庆祝胜利，然后我们会重新开始。

And when you create that kind of a workforce, I think it's much more dynamic, even though sometimes in doing that, you have to redirect people and ruffle their feathers.

当你创建这样的员工队伍时，我认为它会更有活力，尽管有时在这样做时，你必须重新调整人们的方向并激怒他们。

Lenny Rachitsky: Essentially, the way I think about it is you think making people happy is not having hard conversations, not pushing them, when really, it's almost working backwards from, if we win and are killing it, people will be happy and what does it take to do that?

莱尼·拉奇茨基：从本质上讲，我的想法是，你认为让人们快乐不是进行艰难的对话，而不是推动他们，而实际上，这几乎是倒退，如果我们赢了并杀死它，人们就会快乐，需要什么才能做到这一点？

Alisa Cohn: A hundred percent.

艾丽莎·科恩：百分之一百。

And then the right people are going to want to join your team, people who like to win and like to get results.

然后合适的人就会想要加入你的团队，那些喜欢胜利、喜欢取得成果的人。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there a story, an example of a founder you worked with or that comes to mind of this kind of where they thought this was their approach and then they shifted?

Lenny Rachitsky：有没有一个故事，一个与你共事的创始人的例子，或者你想到的这种情况，他们认为这是他们的方法，然后他们改变了？

Or is there kind of a pattern you see often?

或者有一种你经常看到的模式吗？

Alisa Cohn: One company comes to mind.

Alisa Cohn：我想到了一家公司。

One leader I worked with.

一位与我共事过的领导者。

Sometimes I think to myself, if I'm writing a book, the book would start with, "It all started with the avocado toast," because he wants to do right by his workforce.

有时我自己想，如果我正在写一本书，这本书会以“这一切都始于鳄梨吐司”开头，因为他想通过他的员工做正确的事。

And so they have avocado toast at 10 AM, like tea time kind of a thing.

所以他们早上 10 点会吃鳄梨吐司，就像下午茶时间一样。

And it became this great ritual where people would kind of hang out together and that was great.

它变成了一种伟大的仪式，人们可以一起出去玩，这很棒。

And then that turned into other longer periods of just hanging out together.

然后这变成了其他更长的时间一起出去玩。

Again, these are good things.

再说一次，这些都是好事。

And that turned into evening socials and everybody was enjoying spending time together, but they continued to be not fully clear on what they were actually supposed to do.

这变成了晚上的社交活动，每个人都很享受在一起度过的时光，但他们仍然不完全清楚自己实际上应该做什么。

And there began to be kind of a cliquey, gossipy culture of who's in and who's out.

开始出现一种小集团、八卦文化，决定谁进谁出局。

And that would take up a lot of the socialization time discussions.

这会占用大量的社交讨论时间。

So rather than talk about expectations about the work and about results, and again, the results were not showing.

因此，与其谈论对工作和结果的期望，结果还是没有显现出来。

So it wasn't a lot to celebrate.

所以没什么值得庆祝的。

Alisa Cohn: They started at a culture committee.

艾丽莎·科恩：他们是从一个文化委员会开始的。

So they had a culture committee to talk about how we can make people happier around here.

因此，他们成立了一个文化委员会来讨论如何让这里的人们更快乐。

And you can imagine there's now layers and layers of things where we're trying to focus on engagement and we're trying to focus on the employees having a great experience.

你可以想象现在我们正在努力关注参与度，并努力关注拥有良好体验的员工。

And the leader I'm working with is completely sincere.

和我一起工作的领导是完全真诚的。

It actually want to have a great workplace.

它实际上想要拥有一个很棒的工作场所。

But I think the misguidedness was that he hadn't done a great job setting expectations.

但我认为错误在于他没有很好地设定期望。

He had not done a great job of quote unquote "codifying their culture" because culture is not just avocado toast and working together and having socials, culture is things like, we go the extra mile or culture is we make sure, or it could be, we measure twice and cut once.

他没有很好地引用“编纂他们的文化”，因为文化不仅仅是鳄梨吐司、一起工作和社交活动，文化是这样的东西，我们加倍努力，或者文化是我们确保，或者可能是，我们测量两次，切割一次。

Those are kinds of things that are really about the way we get work done around here.

这些事情确实与我们在这里完成工作的方式有关。

And certainly, a focus on results is like, are we following the process to then get the revenue and to then build a profitable company or are we just kind of hanging out together?

当然，对结果的关注就像是，我们是按照流程来获得收入，然后建立一家盈利的公司，还是只是一起闲逛？

Alisa Cohn: So he had to come to terms with his own discomfort of addressing this with employees and his own discomfort in being a corporate drone of, "Oh, expectations and in the workplace and how we do things." And it turned out that's the whole thing with coaching and with working with people is that you kind of see what their underlying assumptions and beliefs are and there's a reason everyone does what they do.

艾丽莎·科恩：因此，他必须接受自己与员工解决这个问题的不适感，以及自己作为企业无人机的不适感，“哦，期望、工作场所以及我们做事的方式。”事实证明，辅导和与人合作的全部内容是，你可以看到他们的基本假设和信念是什么，并且每个人做他们所做的事情都是有原因的。

So there's a reason he's doing what he's doing.

所以他做他正在做的事情是有原因的。

We had to come to terms with that and then he had to really courageously make some changes about the way he was operating.

我们必须接受这一点，然后他必须真正勇敢地改变他的运作方式。

And ultimately, they had to part ways with one or two really toxic people who were creating this gossipy culture and making people feel not included and not focused on results.

最终，他们不得不与一两个真正有毒的人分道扬镳，他们创造了这种八卦文化，让人们感觉自己不被包容，也不注重结果。

And then when they all got on the same page, they were able to gain a lot more traction.

然后，当他们都达成共识时，他们就能获得更大的吸引力。

Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like a lot of leaders and founders can relate to this, of wanting to create a great culture and keep it nice and friendly and everyone's a family and then things don't quite work out often in those cases.

Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得很多领导者和创始人都可以理解这一点，希望创造一种伟大的文化并保持良好和友好，每个人都是一个家庭，但在这些情况下事情往往不太顺利。

And there's a shift to, "Okay, we actually need to make a business that works."

现在的转变是，“好吧，我们实际上需要开展一项有效的业务。”

Lenny Rachitsky: It always reminds me, Sheryl Sandberg came to talk at Airbnb once and people are asking, "What do you do with all this...?

Lenny Rachitsky：这总是让我想起，Sheryl Sandberg 有一次来 Airbnb 演讲，人们问，“你用这些做什么......？

We're just constantly in chaos.

我们只是一直处于混乱之中。

Things are always reorging or changing, just never...

事物总是在重组或改变，只是从来没有......

I'm on different teams every six months.

我每六个月就加入不同的团队。

Our goals are shifting.

我们的目标正在转变。

What do you do with all this...

你用这一切做什么...

Our culture's changing as we grow." And she's like, "That is a sign of hyper growth and success.

随着我们的成长，我们的文化也在发生变化。”她说，“这是高速成长和成功的标志。

And the opposite is even worse when you are not growing and you don't want that.

当你没有成长并且你不想要成长时，相反的情况会更糟。

And so you should be happy this is the challenge you're running into."

所以你应该感到高兴，这就是你遇到的挑战。”

Lenny Rachitsky: So along these lines, you talk about how a lot of founders have to come to terms, and it's not just founders, it's just execs and leaders you work with, have to come to terms with, "Here's what I thought leadership was going to be and how to be a great leader, and here's what it really is." Is there anything more there that you find is commonly what they're wrong about or what they miss and what they have to realize?

莱尼·拉奇茨基：沿着这些思路，你谈到了很多创始人如何必须达成共识，不仅仅是创始人，还有与你一起工作的高管和领导者，都必须达成共识，“这就是我认为的领导力以及如何成为一名伟大的领导者，这就是它的真实情况。”您是否发现还有什么是他们通常错误的或他们错过的以及他们必须意识到的？

Alisa Cohn: Yeah.

艾莉莎·科恩：是的。

And I think as we grow as leaders, we all have to realize our own blind spots and the difference between what we thought and what is actually going on.

我认为，随着我们作为领导者的成长，我们都必须认识到自己的盲点以及我们的想法和实际情况之间的差异。

So I worked with a founder who she wanted to be was a visionary leader, which is fantastic.

所以我和一位创始人一起工作，她希望她成为一位有远见的领导者，这太棒了。

I would love that.

我会喜欢的。

And she was an incredibly visionary person, very inspirational.

她是一个非常有远见、非常鼓舞人心的人。

But what she didn't see is that what her company needed was somebody to structure and hold people accountable and help them create goals and achieve milestones and course correct when they got off course.

但她没有看到的是，她的公司需要的是有人来组织和追究员工的责任，帮助他们制定目标、实现里程碑，并在他们偏离轨道时纠正方向。

And she'd be very frustrated when all those things happened.

当所有这些事情发生时，她会非常沮丧。

People got off course, people didn't have goals, people weren't structured to work together.

人们偏离了轨道，人们没有目标，人们不适合一起工作。

But what she didn't realize was that was, in one way or the other, her job to make that happen.

但她没有意识到，无论以何种方式，这就是她的工作，以实现这一目标。

Alisa Cohn: Now, maybe she needed to have, and I would talk to her a lot about this, a partner, like a COO or somebody else who could be the person who would be sort of managing the internal while she got to be more visionary, inspirational, but ultimately, it was her job to make sure that that was in place.

艾丽莎·科恩：现在，也许她需要一个合作伙伴，我会和她讨论很多关于这个问题的事情，比如首席运营官或其他人，他可以在她变得更有远见、更有灵感的同时，负责内部管理，但最终，她的工作就是确保这一点到位。

And she didn't sort of see that and she did not adjust her style.

她没有看到这一点，也没有调整自己的风格。

And so there's a lot of wheel spinning that happens from that.

因此，由此发生了很多轮子空转的情况。

Even though, by the way, she was an incredibly inspirational person and incredibly inspirational leader and she meant so well.

顺便说一句，尽管如此，她是一个非常鼓舞人心的人，也是一个非常鼓舞人心的领导者，而且她的本意是好的。

There was nothing malicious about it.

这并没有什么恶意。

It's just that she didn't see the situation for what it was and then adjust.

只是她没有看清情况，然后调整过来。

Lenny Rachitsky: It reminds me, we had this coach on the podcast, Joe Hudson, and he had this phrase that I think a lot of people use, but it just stuck with me.

Lenny Rachitsky：这让我想起，我们在播客上有一位教练，Joe Hudson，他有这句话，我认为很多人都在使用，但它一直困扰着我。

What you resist, persists.

你所抗拒的，就会持续存在。

So if you hate confrontation, you're going to have much more confrontation.

因此，如果你讨厌对抗，你就会遇到更多的对抗。

If you hate structure...

如果你讨厌结构...

Actually, this reminds me, Joe Gebbia at Airbnb.

事实上，这让我想起了 Airbnb 的 Joe Gebbia。

He was very anti-process at the beginning of Airbnb.

在 Airbnb 成立之初，他非常反对流程。

He's like, "We're not going to have a process.

他说：“我们不会有一个流程。

I hate process.

我讨厌过程。

We're going to run...

我们要跑...

That's the big company stuff." And then it just chaos constantly.

那是大公司的事情。”然后就一直一片混乱。

And then eventually it's like, "Okay, we need to have some process to how we build things."

最后就像是，“好吧，我们需要有一些构建东西的过程。”

Lenny Rachitsky: And so it's interesting.

Lenny Rachitsky：这很有趣。

A lot of people have to realize the thing they think was bad is actually, I see why people do it this way.

很多人必须意识到他们认为不好的事情实际上是糟糕的，我明白为什么人们会这样做。

Alisa Cohn: Yeah, totally.

艾莉莎·科恩：是的，完全可以。

Actually, I'd like to say something about that because so many...

其实我想说的是，因为很多...

Founders are kind of mavericks and they come into a situation or they start at this company and they want to do things their own way and that's fantastic.

创始人都是特立独行的人，他们遇到了一种情况，或者他们在这家公司开始，他们想按照自己的方式做事，这太棒了。

Otherwise, they wouldn't be a founder.

否则，他们就不会成为创始人。

That's actually fantastic.

这实际上太棒了。

And so many of the founders I've worked with want to reinvent leadership.

与我共事过的许多创始人都希望重塑领导力。

Right?

对吗？

They want to have it with no process, they want to have no hierarchy, they want to have autonomy, whatever it is.

他们想要没有任何流程，他们想要没有等级制度，他们想要拥有自主权，无论是什么。

Alisa Cohn: And my feeling is like, "God bless.

艾丽莎·科恩：我的感觉是，“上帝保佑。

You should absolutely try to do that." But at the end of the day, what happens is, they kind of invent for themselves the understanding that they need to have process, hierarchy, roles and responsibilities, goals, OKRs, whatever it is.

你绝对应该尝试这样做。”但最终，他们会为自己创造一种理解，即他们需要流程、层次结构、角色和责任、目标、OKR，无论是什么。

And I think it's helpful sometimes to go through that fire of thinking we can do it a different way.

我认为有时思考我们可以用不同的方式来做这件事是有帮助的。

But ultimately, I think that the ways to structure a group of people and get them organized so that they can win, are kind of well trod.

但最终，我认为组建一群人并让他们组织起来以便他们能够获胜的方法已经被广泛采用。

And I would say that it's helpful to get through that stage quickly so that you don't have to constantly reinvent the wheels of leadership.

我想说，快速度过这个阶段是有帮助的，这样你就不必不断地重新发明领导力的轮子。

Lenny Rachitsky: Such an important context.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常重要的背景。

Obviously, one of the...

显然，其中之一...

The most successful founders come up with, have first principles thinking into how to do stuff, and oftentimes they find something no one has ever thought about.

最成功的创始人在思考如何做事情时提出了首要原则，而且通常他们会发现一些从未有人考虑过的东西。

So it's always this balance of try a bunch of stuff, a lot of it won't .

所以总是要平衡尝试很多东西，但很多东西都不会。

Some of it was, what will help you win.

其中一些是，什么可以帮助你获胜。

And I think that's a really good point.

我认为这是一个很好的观点。

I want to get into a couple more tactical things that you often work on with founders.

我想谈谈你经常与创始人一起处理的一些战术问题。

One is, running meetings.

一是召开会议。

Meetings come up a lot on this podcast.

这个播客中经常出现会议。

People hate them, people love them.

人们恨他们，人们爱他们。

There's some are great, some are bad, most are bad.

有一些很好，有一些很糟糕，大多数都很糟糕。

You have some cool advice on just how to make meetings more effective and how to especially end a meeting to help you move forward.

您对如何使会议更有效以及如何结束会议以帮助您前进有一些很酷的建议。

Talk about what your advice is there and just generally any advice for better meetings.

谈谈您的建议以及关于更好的会议的一般建议。

Alisa Cohn: Yeah.

艾莉莎·科恩：是的。

I'm one of the few people that loves meetings.

我是少数几个喜欢开会的人之一。

Or I should say I don't love meetings.

或者我应该说我不喜欢开会。

I love the potential for meetings.

我喜欢会议的潜力。

We have all this smart people in the room.

我们房间里有这么多聪明人。

We have the potential to talk about these great things and make decisions.

我们有潜力讨论这些伟大的事情并做出决定。

And unfortunately, they don't go that way.

不幸的是，他们并没有走那条路。

So what happens often, I mean there's so many downfalls with meetings, but one thing that happens is, we keep meeting.

所以经常发生的事情是，我的意思是会议有很多失败，但发生的一件事是，我们继续开会。

Either we make decisions or we don't make decisions, but then we come back to meet again and we don't have any continuity from the last.

我们要么做出决定，要么不做出决定，但当我们再次见面时，我们与上次没有任何连续性。

So then we re-meet, we re-decide, and that is a big problem.

然后我们重新见面，重新决定，这是一个大问题。

So my three questions to end the meeting are, what did we decide here?

因此，我在会议结束时提出的三个问题是，我们在这里决定了什么？

Who needs to do what by when?

谁需要在什么时候做什么？

And who else needs to know?

还有谁需要知道？

And if you can capture those, articulate those as deliverables, I promise you, you're going to have better meetings.

如果你能抓住这些，将它们明确表达为可交付成果，我向你保证，你将会有更好的会议。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so it's, what did we decide here?

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，那么我们在这里决定了什么？

Who's going to do what by when?

谁将在什么时候做什么？

So basically, action items with dates.

基本上，行动项目带有日期。

And then, who needs to know about what we decided here?

然后，谁需要知道我们在这里做出的决定？

Is that how you put it?

你是这么说的吗？

Alisa Cohn: Yes.

艾莉莎·科恩：是的。

Who else needs to know?

还有谁需要知道？

There's so many executive teams that I've worked with and at first, they go into their room, they have their meeting, they make their decisions and then they leave and they don't tell anyone.

我曾与很多高管团队合作过，一开始，他们进入自己的房间，开会，做出决定，然后离开，不会告诉任何人。

"I made this promise for my team that you guys need to kind of go do." Or, "We decided on a policy of some sort and we forgot to tell everybody." And again, no, absolutely no maliciousness, just that they forget or they're too busy and there's not part of the protocol and the process inside of the company that encourages and really insists that people share important information, so cascading that down.

“我向我的团队做出了这个承诺，你们需要去做。”或者，“我们决定了某种政策，但我们忘记告诉所有人。”再说一次，不，绝对没有恶意，只是他们忘记了，或者他们太忙了，公司内部的协议和流程没有一部分鼓励并真正坚持人们分享重要信息，所以将其层层分解。

Alisa Cohn: But even the first question, what did we decide here?

Alisa Cohn：但即使是第一个问题，我们在这里决定了什么？

If you really go around the room at the end of a meeting or six people in the meeting, let's say, and you say to everybody, "What did we decide here?" And they all write it down, you will get six different answers, even though we're in the same meeting.

如果您在会议结束时真的在房间里走动或在会议中的六个人中，比方说，您对每个人说：“我们在这里决定了什么？”他们都写下来，你会得到六个不同的答案，即使我们在同一个会议上。

I love that it's so powerful, but also, so helpful to really raise that up, to surface that and then to figure out what to do about it.

我喜欢它如此强大，但也非常有帮助，可以真正提出它，将其浮出水面，然后找出如何应对它。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that you highlighted that.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你强调这一点。

I was going to say exactly the same thing, that everyone in their head has the thought of, "Here, oh yeah.

我想说的是完全相同的事情，每个人脑子里都会想到，“在这里，哦，是的。

Here's what we decided." And to your point, it's often not the same.

这就是我们的决定。”就你而言，情况往往不一样。

So is the advice here, is this like a template or something you fill out at the end of a meeting or is it someone's job to make sure these three things happen or how do you operationalize these three questions?

这里的建议是，这是否像一个模板或您在会议结束时填写的内容，或者是某人的工作来确保这三件事发生，或者您如何实施这三个问题？

Alisa Cohn: I like it that it's someone's job, the person that I sort of think of as the meetings are.

Alisa Cohn：我喜欢这是某人的工作，我认为会议就是由这个人负责的。

And typically, that's somebody who enjoys follow-up, who enjoys putting lists together and putting things into boxes and whatnot, and there's usually someone like that on the team.

通常，这个人喜欢跟进，喜欢把清单放在一起，把东西放进盒子里等等，团队中通常会有这样的人。

And so then it's kind of exciting for them to be the follower upper.

因此，对于他们来说，成为上层的追随者是一件令人兴奋的事情。

But one way or the other, so you could use a template.

但不管怎样，你都可以使用模板。

I think that actually baking it in as a ritual to the meeting, because the other thing about meetings is that we never have enough time.

我认为实际上将其作为会议的一种仪式，因为会议的另一件事是我们永远没有足够的时间。

We go right to the end and we don't leave the five or 10 minutes at the end to make sure that we ask these three questions and make sure that we have an understanding of what the follow through is on these meetings.

我们会一直走到最后，不会在最后留出五分钟或十分钟的时间来确保我们提出这三个问题，并确保我们了解这些会议的后续内容。

Lenny Rachitsky: What I'm imagining is, say it's the product managers.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想象的是产品经理。

Put this doc on the screen in the meeting as the meeting's ending and just have it filled out basically, and just confirm, "Does this look good to everyone?"

将此文档作为会议的结尾放在会议屏幕上，然后将其基本填写完毕，然后确认“这对每个人来说都好看吗？”

Alisa Cohn: Love that.

艾莉莎·科恩：喜欢这个。

That's a great way to do it.

这是一个很好的方法。

By the way, with...

顺便说一句，与...

Well, I just would say what's interesting about that is that if we ask people what did we decide here, I think there's value in just asking that question in particular because somebody might say, "We decided," I don't know, "Something." And other people would say, "No, we didn't.

好吧，我只想说，有趣的是，如果我们问人们我们在这里决定了什么，我认为特别提出这个问题是有价值的，因为有人可能会说，“我们决定”，我不知道，“某事”。其他人会说：“不，我们没有。

But that's actually a good idea.

但这实际上是个好主意。

It sort of crystallizes what we did talk about in a more comprehensive way." I think there's value in raising the differences and I think there's value in stitching those together.

它以更全面的方式具体化了我们所讨论的内容。”我认为提出差异是有价值的，而且我认为将这些差异缝合在一起也是有价值的。

So just putting it up on the board is good, especially if you're running short of time.

因此，将其放在黑板上就很好，尤其是在您时间紧迫的情况下。

I worry that somebody might not weigh in and say, "Actually, I have a very different point of view of what we decided here." So maybe it's also about building the culture to break in and say, "No, that's not what I see.

我担心有人可能不会介入并说：“实际上，我对我们在这里做出的决定有非常不同的观点。”因此，也许这还在于建立一种文化，让人们闯入并说：“不，这不是我所看到的。

Let's spend some time on that."

让我们花一些时间在这上面。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's actually spend more time on this because this is really, I think, really this specific detail I think could be really powerful if you do it right.

Lenny Rachitsky：实际上，让我们花更多的时间在这上面，因为我认为，如果你做得正确，这确实是一个具体的细节，我认为它可能非常强大。

So say you're the PM in the meeting, who do you ask?

假设您是会议中的 PM，您会问谁？

Do you say to the room, "What did we decide here?" Or do you look at the most senior person?

你会对房间说：“我们在这里决定了什么？”还是看最资深的人？

Otherwise, it feels like it could just lead to a whole discussion the last couple of minutes, which I guess could be valuable, but who do you point this question to?

否则，感觉它可能会在最后几分钟引发整个讨论，我想这可能很有价值，但你把这个问题指向谁呢？

Alisa Cohn: Yeah.

艾莉莎·科恩：是的。

So I picture this for let's say, a six-person executive team meeting, which means everyone go around quickly and say, "What did we decide here?" Now, if you're in a meeting with a large executive team, which I do work with sometimes or non-executive team, like a group of some sort, then you probably want to get a few people just to...

所以我想象这是一个六人执行团队会议，这意味着每个人都快速讨论并说：“我们在这里决定了什么？”现在，如果您正在与一个大型执行团队（我有时会与该团队合作）或非执行团队（例如某种团体）开会，那么您可能希望让一些人......

I would just even say as a facilitator, two or three people, "Okay, two or three people, what do we decide here?" And if you can kind of get common, great.

作为协调人，我什至会说，两三个人，“好吧，两三个人，我们在这里决定什么？”如果你能变得普通，那就太好了。

That's fantastic.

太棒了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

Okay.

好的。

So if it's a small meeting, go around the room and everyone just shares, here's what we decided here.

因此，如果这是一个小型会议，请在房间里转一圈，每个人都可以分享，这就是我们在这里做出的决定。

And they could just be like, "Yep, he's got it or she's got it." Awesome.

他们可能会说，“是的，他得到了它，或者她得到了它。”惊人的。

Okay.

好的。

This is great.

这太棒了。

So the advice here is, next time you have a meeting, especially an exec meeting, just at the end of the meeting, you, the listener of this podcast, just ask, "Okay, everyone.

所以这里的建议是，下次你开会时，尤其是高管会议，在会议结束时，你，这个播客的听众，只要问：“好吧，大家。

Let's just make sure we're on the same page.

让我们确保我们在同一页面上。

What did you decide here?

你在这里做了什么决定？

Who needs to do what by when?" And then everyone chimes in and you're writing this in this doc, and then what else?

谁需要在什么时候做什么？”然后每个人都插话，你在这篇文档中写了这个，然后还有什么呢？

Who needs to know about what we decided here?

谁需要知道我们在这里做出的决定？

Alisa Cohn: Yeah.

艾莉莎·科恩：是的。

Lenny, I love that because also, do you have to be the leader of the meeting to do that?

莱尼，我喜欢这个，因为你必须是会议的领导者才能做到这一点吗？

No. You could just be the person in the meeting and just chime in and just start it yourself.

不。您可以只是参加会议，插话并自己开始会议。

And if you do that and everyone kind of picks it up, it can become a ritual just by virtue of your own agency.

如果你这样做，并且每个人都接受它，那么仅仅凭借你自己的力量，它就可以成为一种仪式。

So I love that you just encouraged everyone to do that.

所以我喜欢你鼓励每个人都这样做。

Lenny Rachitsky: And this is how you become a leader, is you just start doing these things and people are like, "Oh, Alisa is so helpful.

Lenny Rachitsky：这就是你成为领导者的方式，你刚开始做这些事情，人们就会说，“哦，Alisa 太有帮助了。

She's just on top of it.

她只是在上面。

Every time she's in a meeting, the meetings go better.

每次她参加会议时，会议都会进展得更好。

We get things done." So I think just doing the thing that is useful to everyone is how you move up.

我们把事情做好。”所以我认为只要做对每个人都有用的事情就是你进步的方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

Another topic that I know you spend a lot of time on is something you call the founder prenup.

我知道您花了很多时间讨论的另一个主题是您所说的创始人婚前协议。

And what I love about this is, a lot of the problems that a company trickle down from the founders having their challenges with each other.

我喜欢这一点的是，公司的许多问题都是由于创始人之间的挑战而产生的。

And I started a company in the past and I don't think people realize how significant this decision is in your life.

我过去创办了一家公司，我认为人们没有意识到这个决定对你的生活有多么重要。

It's basically, you are marrying someone in a business context and you're stuck with this person for a long time and you basically came up with a prenup, which is a set of questions of just things you need to talk about to make sure you're aligned before you start this company.

基本上，你在商业环境中与某人结婚，并且你和这个人在一起很长一段时间，你基本上想出了一份婚前协议，这是一系列你需要谈论的问题，以确保在你创办这家公司之前你们是一致的。

Is there any context around this thing before we talk through actually the questions that you recommend people talk through?

在我们实际讨论您建议人们讨论的问题之前，是否有任何围绕这件事的背景？

Alisa Cohn: Well, I just want to reiterate what you just said.

艾莉莎·科恩：嗯，我只是想重申一下你刚才所说的话。

Exactly right.

完全正确。

And it turns out that according to Noam, Noam Wasserstein, 65% of startups fail because of conflict with founders or the founding team.

事实证明，根据诺姆·瓦瑟斯坦 (Noam Wasserstein) 的说法，65% 的初创公司因与创始人或创始团队的冲突而失败。

So it's really essential to get this right, and I agree that people step into this relationship with a lot less care than they should.

因此，正确对待这一点确实非常重要，而且我同意人们在进入这种关系时表现得比应有的要少得多。

And bad things can happen because you haven't done the work of getting to know each other before you decide to co-found.

糟糕的事情可能会发生，因为你们在决定共同创立之前还没有完成相互了解的工作。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

It's so easy just to like, "Yeah, I'll start a company.

很容易就会喜欢，“是的，我要创办一家公司。

We have this cool idea.

我们有这个很酷的主意。

Let's just do it.

我们就这么做吧。

It's going to be so awesome." And then you don't realize how much you're committing to and how often things don't work out because of that quick decision.

这将会非常棒。”然后你就意识不到自己付出了多少努力，但又有多少次因为这个仓促的决定而事与愿违。

And oftentimes, it's like friends and then it becomes even more challenging because I want to be friends, but we're in business together.

通常，这就像朋友一样，然后变得更具挑战性，因为我想成为朋友，但我们在一起做生意。

So yeah.

所以是的。

Let's talk about what you recommend folks talk through as much as we can on this podcast.

让我们尽可能多地讨论一下您建议人们在这个播客上讨论的内容。

Alisa Cohn: So I do have kind of an extensive questionnaire, so we just touch on a few things, but one thing I think first and foremost is, what are your values?

艾丽莎·科恩：我确实有一份广泛的调查问卷，所以我们只涉及一些事情，但我认为首先也是最重要的一件事是，你的价值观是什么？

And I think it's really essential to do some sort of values clarification exercise.

我认为进行某种价值观澄清练习非常重要。

You can find a ton of them online.

你可以在网上找到很多。

You can find a list of values and just pull out your core values and just compare them with each other because when you are aligned, it's great.

你可以找到一个价值观列表，然后拿出你的核心价值观，然后将它们相互比较，因为当你保持一致时，那就太好了。

Or when you're adjacent, it's also great.

或者当你们相邻时，也很棒。

Alisa Cohn: I might care a lot about excellence, Lenny, you might care a lot about learning.

艾丽莎·科恩：我可能非常关心卓越，莱尼，你可能非常关心学习。

Fantastic.

极好的。

Those are great values that we can kind of, go together.

这些都是我们可以共同努力的伟大价值观。

I might care about excellence and you might care about work-life balance.

我可能关心卓越，而你可能关心工作与生活的平衡。

Wow, let's talk about that because I think it's going to be really important as we go through our startup journey that we understand both of us, what does work-life balance mean and what does excellence mean?

哇，让我们来谈谈这个，因为我认为在我们经历创业之旅时，了解我们双方、工作与生活的平衡意味着什么以及卓越意味着什么，这将是非常重要的？

Because those two things can at times be at odds with each other, just as kind of an example.

因为这两件事有时可能会相互矛盾，就像一个例子。

Alisa Cohn: So talking through those core values in advance and updating them regularly, even as you go down the path together is so essential.

Alisa Cohn：因此，即使你们一起走这条路，提前讨论这些核心价值观并定期更新它们也是非常重要的。

Just so you know where the other person's coming from.

只是为了让你知道对方来自哪里。

Because the other problem is, someone acts in a certain way, you don't know them that well maybe, or maybe you've known them as an eighth grader.

因为另一个问题是，某人以某种方式行事，你可能不太了解他们，或者也许你在八年级时就认识他们了。

A lot of founders do know each other from their youth and they've matured into different kinds of people.

很多创始人确实从年轻时就认识了，后来他们已经成长为不同类型的人。

And so you think they're acting strangely, but actually, they're acting in accordance with their values.

所以你认为他们的行为很奇怪，但实际上，他们的行为符合他们的价值观。

And so getting a handle on that upfront can solve, I would just say, solve a lot of problems before they start.

因此，提前处理好这个问题可以解决很多问题，我只想说，在问题开始之前就解决它们。

Lenny Rachitsky: So signs that your values don't align.

Lenny Rachitsky：这表明你们的价值观不一致。

It's basically you both can't be true is almost the way I think about it as we talk.

基本上你们俩都不可能是真的，这几乎是我们谈话时我的想法。

It's hard to be the excellent, focus on excellence and also not work long hours, which it's possible, but it's hard.

成为优秀者很难，专注于卓越并且不长时间工作，这是可能的，但很难。

Those are challenging and worth the conversation.

这些都是具有挑战性的，值得讨论。

Alisa Cohn: Yeah, worth the conversation because in fact, as you say that, I'm like, "Well, I guess you can do that.

艾丽莎·科恩：是的，值得讨论，因为事实上，正如你所说，我想，“好吧，我想你可以做到这一点。

Right.

对。

You can do that." And so therefore, that's where the conversation has to figure out how you're going to marry these two values, which might be at odds or might be aligned, but let's talk through what work-life balance means to you and let's talk through what excellence means to me, and let's see if we can have a meeting of the minds about it or at least I know where you stand.

你可以做到的。”因此，对话必须弄清楚如何将这两种价值观结合起来，这两种价值观可能会不一致，也可能会一致，但让我们谈谈工作与生活的平衡对你意味着什么，让我们谈谈卓越对我意味着什么，让我们看看我们是否可以就此达成共识，或者至少我知道你的立场。

Alisa Cohn: One of the founders I worked with, he would text or Slack his co-founder on weekends and the co-founder wouldn't respond.

Alisa Cohn：与我共事的一位创始人，他会在周末给他的联合创始人发短信或 Slack，但联合创始人不会回复。

And that was extremely frustrating to the person, to the co-founder I was talking to.

这对于与我交谈的联合创始人来说是非常令人沮丧的。

And it turned out, after they finally addressed it, it really was about wanting to have some downtime and some, quote unquote, "Balance." Nothing wrong with that, but because they didn't talk about it, both sides made big assumption about it and then it caused this conflict that didn't have to happen if they'd had the conversation in advance.

事实证明，在他们最终解决这个问题之后，这确实是想要一些休息时间和一些，引用不引用的话，“平衡”。这并没有什么问题，但是因为他们没有谈论这件事，双方都对此做出了很大的假设，然后就导致了这场冲突，如果他们事先进行对话就不会发生。

Lenny Rachitsky: Comes back to where we started of having these conversations is necessary and almost helps the other person because this small issue could become a huge issue over time, if you just start assuming and it keeps happening and it keeps scratching and scratching at you.

Lenny Rachitsky：回到我们开始的地方，进行这些对话是必要的，而且几乎可以帮助对方，因为随着时间的推移，这个小问题可能会变成一个大问题，如果你开始假设，它就会不断发生，它会不断地困扰着你。

And letting that person's is screwed up because you're, "I can't do this with you anymore." Right?

让那个人的事情搞砸了，因为你会说，“我不能再和你这样做了。”正确的？

So it's just another reminder of how it's good for the other person for you to engage in a difficult conversation.

所以这只是再次提醒你，进行一场困难的谈话对对方有好处。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, what else?

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好吧，还有什么？

So values.

所以价值观。

By the way, is there a values framework you most love that you can point people to or there just a bunch and don't worry too much about which one you go ?

顺便问一下，有没有一个你最喜欢的价值观框架可以向人们指出，或者只有一堆，不用太担心你选择哪一个？

Alisa Cohn: I mean, the one I use is super simple, which is on the thing called the internet.

Alisa Cohn：我的意思是，我使用的非常简单，它位于互联网上。

There's a lot of lists of values and I think when you see a list of values, you can pull out the ones that are most meaningful to you, and that's a very simple and helpful and free tool.

有很多值列表，我认为当您看到值列表时，您可以找出对您最有意义的值，这是一个非常简单、有用且免费的工具。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

So you just Google list of values, there's a PDF, and just circle the ones that are most and pick whatever small number, don't...

所以你只需谷歌值列表，有一个 PDF，只需圈出最多的值并选择任何小的数字，不要......

Half of -

一半——

Alisa Cohn: Actually, well, just to give you the process, right?

Alisa Cohn：实际上，只是为了给你一个流程，对吧？

It's helpful to pick 20, for example.

例如，选择 20 个会很有帮助。

Great.

伟大的。

And then you winnow them down to, let's say, 10.

然后你将它们筛选到 10 个。

And then you do the difficult work of winnowing them down to three to five that you feel are core to you.

然后你会进行艰苦的工作，将他们筛选到三到五个你认为对你来说是核心的人。

And that's a good exercise for everyone to do actually, every year because things can change.

这对每个人来说都是一个很好的练习，每年都应该做，因为事情可能会发生变化。

It also forces you to make the difficult decisions about when it comes down to it, what are the things that really are important to me?

它还迫使你做出艰难的决定，什么是对我来说真正重要的事情？

The more you know your values, the more you can operate in the world with just more clarity for yourself.

你越了解自己的价值观，你就越能更加清晰地在这个世界上运作。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

All right.

好的。

So values.

所以价值观。

What else?

还有什么？

Alisa Cohn: Yeah.

艾莉莎·科恩：是的。

So another one is, vision of the company.

所以另一个是公司的愿景。

So when this company is successful, what does that look like?

那么，当这家公司成功时，会是什么样子呢？

And what that might look like is, we're in control of our destiny and we are able to operate this business independently and we have a lot of freedom.

看起来可能是这样的，我们掌控着自己的命运，我们能够独立经营这项业务，我们有很多自由。

What that might look like is a big venture outcome that we all read about.

这可能是我们都读过的一项重大风险成果。

And if you are both assuming that you both think the same thing but aren't talking about it explicitly or talking about the trade-offs you need to make inherent in that, then what often happens if you have differences is they come home to roost while it's too late or when it's too late.

如果你们都假设你们都有同样的想法，但没有明确地谈论它，也没有谈论你需要做出的内在的权衡，那么如果你们有分歧，经常会发生的情况是，当为时已晚或为时已晚时，它们就会得到应有的回报。

Alisa Cohn: So an example is the two co-founders I worked with, one of them would said to me wistfully, this is like five or six years into the company, and the company was going well, but it was challenging and they had all their growing pains and like you mentioned about Sheryl said all the chaos.

Alisa Cohn：举个例子，我和两位联合创始人一起工作过，其中一位会若有所思地对我说，公司成立五六年了，公司进展顺利，但充满挑战，他们经历了成长的烦恼，就像你提到的谢丽尔所说的所有混乱。

And he said to me, "Gosh, I don't see why we have to grow.

他对我说：“天哪，我不明白为什么我们必须成长。

I just wish we could actually have fewer employees.

我只是希望我们实际上可以拥有更少的员工。

And I used to love it when I knew everybody's name and I would just much prefer an environment where we didn't have to grow." Well, unfortunately, they were already venture backed and also, the other co-founder had a very lofty ambition for a very big company.

当我知道每个人的名字时，我曾经很喜欢它，而且我更喜欢一个我们不需要成长的环境。”不幸的是，他们已经得到了风险投资的支持，而且另一位联合创始人对一家非常大的公司有着非常远大的抱负。

And since they hadn't talked about that, it was way too late to even have that conversation and it was a very painful reckoning for both of them to realize they were not on the same page.

由于他们没有谈论过这一点，所以现在进行对话已经太晚了，而且对于他们两人来说，意识到他们的意见不一致是一个非常痛苦的想法。

Lenny Rachitsky: Totally, see the value of this one.

Lenny Rachitsky：完全可以，看看这个的价值。

I could totally see how people would have different goals.

我完全可以理解人们会有不同的目标。

I imagine it also changes over time, so there's probably an element of, if something has shifted for you, you should probably also have that conversation.

我想它也会随着时间的推移而改变，所以可能有一个因素，如果你的某些事情发生了变化，你可能也应该进行这样的对话。

I don't want to build an IPO venture scale business, I just want to build something chill.

我不想建立一个 IPO 风险规模的业务，我只是想建立一些冷静的东西。

So basically, a line on what is...

所以基本上，一条线是什么......

How would you phrase that?

你会怎么说？

What does winning look like to you?

对你来说，胜利是什么样的？

Alisa Cohn: Yeah, what does success look like?

艾丽莎·科恩：是的，成功是什么样的？

Lenny Rachitsky: What does success look like to you?

Lenny Rachitsky：对你来说，成功是什么样的？

Alisa Cohn: Or what's the vision for the company when it reaches its full potential?

Alisa Cohn：或者说，当公司充分发挥潜力时，公司的愿景是什么？

Alisa Cohn: Another one is, it's sort of a two part question.

Alisa Cohn：另一个问题是，这是一个由两部分组成的问题。

How do you handle conflict?

你如何处理冲突？

So how do you handle conflict?

那么你如何处理冲突呢？

But then, you might want to ask your spouse, someone close to you, "How do I handle conflict?" Because you might think, "Oh, I handle conflict with such an enlightened person.

但是，你可能想问你的配偶，你身边的人，“我如何处理冲突？”因为你可能会想：“哦，我处理与如此开明的人的冲突。

I'm so neutral about it.

我对此持中立态度。

I'm so great at bringing things up." But the person who's close to you might say, "You seethe until you're ready to bring something up and it's really uncomfortable in the seething period." So it just gives you a little more self-awareness about how you actually handle conflict.

我非常擅长提出问题。”但与你关系密切的人可能会说：“你会一直沸腾，直到你准备好提出一些事情，而在沸腾的时期真的很不舒服。”所以它只是让你对如何实际处理冲突有更多的自我意识。

Alisa Cohn: And that's really important because I might be the kind of person who wants to bring up conflict and talk about it immediately.

艾丽莎·科恩：这非常重要，因为我可能是那种想要提出冲突并立即讨论的人。

The other person might be a person who totally wants to talk about the conflict but wants to let it settle first and wants to also go through their own thinking process about what's important to them and might actually feel like they've resolved it themselves without having to have a conversation with you.

对方可能是一个完全想谈论冲突的人，但又想让它先解决，并且还想通过自己的思考过程来了解什么对他们来说是重要的，并且实际上可能觉得他们已经自己解决了问题，而无需与您交谈。

And if you're the person who's like, "Let's talk about it, let's talk about it, let's talk about it." And they're like, "I'm working through it myself." Now you have conflict over the conflict and it just turns into dynamic that's not necessary.

如果你是这样的人，“让我们谈谈它，让我们谈谈它，让我们谈谈它。”他们会说，“我自己正在解决这个问题。”现在你们之间存在冲突，冲突就变成了不必要的动态。

Lenny Rachitsky: As you go through these questions, it's absurd to imagine people don't do this when they find a co-founder and work through stuff, and I know nobody does.

Lenny Rachitsky：当你思考这些问题时，想象人们在找到联合创始人并解决问题时不这样做是荒谬的，而且我知道没有人这样做。

The percentage of people that do this sort of work ahead of time, it's very low.

提前做这类工作的人比例非常低。

And so I love that we're helping this percentage go up, but it also reminds me of just how crazy it is people don't have these conversations and how it explains why so many founder relationships don't work out.

所以我很高兴我们正在帮助这个百分比上升，但这也让我想起人们没有这些对话是多么疯狂，以及它如何解释为什么如此多的创始人关系无法解决。

So these are awesome.

所以这些都很棒。

What else?

还有什么？

I know you have a whole list and we'll link to it, right?

我知道您有完整的列表，我们会链接到它，对吧？

There's a PDF we can link to?

有 PDF 我们可以链接吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: post.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：帖子。

Awesome.

惊人的。

Let's do a few more.

让我们再做几个。

Alisa Cohn: Another one is, how do we decide when we disagree?

Alisa Cohn：另一个问题是，当我们意见不一致时我们如何决定？

And that is a very good thing to explore because there's actually a lot of different ways to decide when you disagree and they're all good.

这是一件非常值得探索的事情，因为实际上有很多不同的方法可以在你不同意时做出决定，而且它们都很好。

And if you have it sort of upfront and it's just for an ongoing discussion, but if you have it up front like when we disagree, because that's definitely going to happen, let's assume that the person who cares the most can win that argument.

如果你预先有它并且只是为了持续的讨论，但是如果你预先有它，就像我们不同意时一样，因为这肯定会发生，让我们假设最关心的人可以赢得这场争论。

That would be a great way to do it.

这将是一个很好的方法。

It might be, the person who's got the best perspective and the most expertise can win that argument.

拥有最佳视角和最专业知识的人可能会赢得这场争论。

It might be, we'll go back and forth when we really disagree.

也许，当我们确实意见不一致时，我们会反复讨论。

First you win and then I win, like that, back and forth.

先是你赢，然后我赢，如此循环往复。

Alisa Cohn: There's so many different ways to handle it and if you talk about it upfront, you'll be much more likely to be able to actually put that into practice when you do disagree because you will definitely disagree.

Alisa Cohn：有很多不同的方法来处理它，如果你提前谈论它，当你不同意时，你将更有可能真正将其付诸实践，因为你肯定会不同意。

There's no way around that.

没有办法解决这个问题。

And that's not even a bad thing.

这甚至不是一件坏事。

You're smart people.

你们是聪明人。

You have this dynamic tension in the relationship.

你们之间的关系存在着这种动态的紧张关系。

You bring different things to the table.

你带来了不同的东西。

You've got different perspectives.

你们有不同的观点。

Disagreeing is normal.

不同意很正常。

Working through it and having a practice and a process of working through it, will help it be a good conversation rather than this sort of sulky difficult conversation.

解决它并进行练习和解决它的过程，将有助于它成为一次良好的对话，而不是这种闷闷不乐的困难对话。

Alisa Cohn: Yeah.

艾莉莎·科恩：是的。

So another one is, what kind of company culture do I think is important?

那么另一个问题是，我认为什么样的公司文化是重要的？

People definitely don't talk about this before they found the company and they assume they're on the same page.

人们在找到这家公司之前肯定不会谈论这一点，并且他们认为他们的想法是一致的。

So one founder might be, "I want to have this great company where everyone loves it and we're all loving together and working hard together.

因此，一位创始人可能会说：“我希望拥有一家伟大的公司，每个人都喜欢它，我们都一起热爱并一起努力工作。

And it feels like a..." To use your word before, "It feels like a family." By the way, that's great.

感觉就像……”用你之前的话来说，“感觉就像一个家庭。”顺便说一下，那太好了。

That's fantastic.

太棒了。

"I want to have a get it done, results-focused culture where we're just executing the hell out of everything and that we're just focused on winning."

“我希望有一种完成任务、注重结果的文化，在这种文化中，我们全力以赴地执行一切，并且只专注于胜利。”

Alisa Cohn: By the way, those two can actually exist together.

Alisa Cohn：顺便说一下，这两者实际上可以共存。

But if you're pushing in one direction without the other and your co-founder is pushing the other direction without yours, it really can feel like two different companies.

但如果你在一个方向上推动而没有另一个方向，而你的联合创始人在没有你的情况下在另一个方向上推动，那么感觉真的就像是两家不同的公司。

And that's...

那就是...

When I go into a situation at one of my client sites, often I will hear from the employees, "It feels like we have two different companies and two different cultures depending on whose team you're on." And that, of course, leads to lack of coherent working together and certainly even just lack of different standards and expectations.

当我进入某个客户站点时，我经常会听到员工说：“感觉就像我们有两家不同的公司和两种不同的文化，具体取决于您所在的团队。”当然，这会导致缺乏一致的合作，甚至只是缺乏不同的标准和期望。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

To kind of start to wrap our conversation, I want to take us to a recurring segment of this podcast that I call, Fail Corner.

为了开始结束我们的谈话，我想带我们进入这个播客中我称之为“失败角”的重复部分。

We've talked a lot about failure at this point and just all the ways people fail.

我们已经讨论了很多关于失败以及人们失败的所有方式。

I'm curious if, in your career or life, there's a story that might be helpful for folks to hear when things didn't go great and you've failed, and if you learn something from that experience.

我很好奇，在你的职业生涯或生活中，当事情进展不顺利、你失败时，是否有一个故事可能对人们有帮助，以及你是否能从这段经历中学到一些东西。

And the reason this is something I do is I feel like people listening to this podcast, everyone's like, "Sounds so amazing, everything's always going great.

我做这件事的原因是我觉得人们听这个播客时，每个人都会说，“听起来太棒了，一切都很顺利。

They're killing it." When in reality, that's not actually how things go.

他们正在杀死它。”但实际上，事情并非如此。

So these end up being really helpful for people like, "Oh, wow.

所以这些最终对那些像“哦，哇。

Even Alisa had a really hard time sometime." Is there a story that you could share?

就连艾丽莎也有过一段非常艰难的时期。”有什么故事可以分享吗？

Alisa Cohn: Absolutely.

艾莉莎·科恩：当然。

I mean, so many examples.

我的意思是，有很多例子。

I'm going to give two quick examples.

我将举两个简单的例子。

One is, when I first started my coaching practice, I just kind of started and so I just did everything I could to get clients, to build a business, to build a practice, to build my brand, all the things.

一是，当我第一次开始我的教练实践时，我才刚刚开始，所以我尽我所能来获得客户，建立业务，建立实践，建立我的品牌，所有的事情。

And I was working so hard and I think I'd had this conversation with somebody that didn't go very well.

我工作非常努力，但我想我和某人的谈话进行得不太顺利。

And I just thought, in my mind's eye, I thought, "Well, what will become of me?" That was my voice in my head for quite a long time, "What will become of me?" And I was living in Boston at the time.

我只是想，在我的脑海里，我想，“那么，我会变成什么样子呢？”这个声音在我脑海里萦绕了很长一段时间：“我会变成什么样子？”当时我住在波士顿。

I got onto the floor, my hardwood floors in my Brookline condo, and I just balled in the fetal position.

我趴在地板上，我布鲁克莱恩公寓的硬木地板上，我就像胎儿一样蜷缩着。

I just balled and balled and balled for an hour.

我就这样不停地打球，打球，打球，打球，打球，打球，打球，打球，打球，打球，打球。

It wasn't 10 minutes, it was an hour.

这不是10分钟，而是一个小时。

Alisa Cohn: And I was so frightened and just upset.

艾丽莎·科恩：我非常害怕，而且很沮丧。

Am I going to be able to make this work?

我能完成这项工作吗？

And it was a while and I got into the couch and took a little stress nap.

过了一会儿，我钻进沙发，小憩了一会儿。

And then I got up from my stress nap and I just started making more calls and doing more things.

然后我从压力小睡中醒来，开始打更多电话，做更多事情。

And that was definitely a rock bottom moment for me.

这对我来说绝对是一个最低谷的时刻。

And I think what I learned is, you have to literally pick yourself up from the ground and pull yourself forward.

我认为我学到的是，你必须从字面上把自己从地上爬起来并推动自己前进。

And when you keep taking action, action, action, win or lose, win or lose, you'll get where you need to go.

当你不断采取行动、行动、行动，无论输赢，输赢，你都会到达你需要去的地方。

And that turned out to be true.

事实证明这是真的。

But in those moments, I was not thinking that was going to turn out to be true.

但在那一刻，我并没有想到这会成为现实。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

Amazing story.

令人惊奇的故事。

I imagine many people feel those moments and it's empowering to hear that it can all turn out really well, even when you're lying in the floor crying for an hour.

我想很多人都感受到了那些时刻，听到一切都会变得非常好，即使你躺在地板上哭了一个小时，这也是一种力量。

An hour is a long time to cry on the floor.

一个小时对于趴在地板上哭泣来说是很长的时间。

Alisa Cohn: It is a long time to cry.

艾莉莎·科恩：哭了很长时间。

It really...

真的是...

I thought about it because most people just cry for 10 or 15 minutes.

我想了想，因为大多数人只会哭 10 或 15 分钟。

I was crying for an hour.

我哭了一个小时。

I'm positive.

我很积极。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Great story.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：很棒的故事。

You said you had another story.

你说你还有另一个故事。

Alisa Cohn: Yeah.

艾莉莎·科恩：是的。

I'll tell you a second story, which is more focused on actually my work life.

我会告诉你第二个故事，它实际上更关注我的工作生活。

So one thing that I do is I do coaching of course and I do off sites.

所以我做的一件事就是我当然做教练，我也在场外做。

And this was early, early days of my coaching career and I was doing this off site and it wasn't going well.

那是我教练生涯的早期，我在场外做这件事，但进展并不顺利。

And I was debriefing with my client during the breaks and at one point she said something like, "I just think we should end this offsite.

我在休息期间向我的客户汇报情况，有一次她说了这样的话，“我只是认为我们应该在场外结束这件事。

I just think we should just decide it's over and it's not working." And I felt horrible, obviously, humiliated, certainly, and just like that's a failure.

我只是认为我们应该决定一切都结束了，但这是行不通的。”显然，我感觉很可怕，很羞辱，当然，这就是一次失败。

That's like, "Oh, fail." And I know that what I took away from it was that I can improve my skills in every aspect of running an offsite.

就像，“哦，失败了。”我知道我从中得到的收获是我可以提高异地运营各个方面的技能。

Alisa Cohn: So getting aligned with the client in advance, making sure that I had the right activities getting us to our goal, being very goal-oriented and focused, and making sure that I had kind of understood the rhythm of what it takes to bring people together.

Alisa Cohn：所以提前与客户保持一致，确保我有正确的活动让我们实现目标，非常目标导向和专注，并确保我已经理解将人们聚集在一起所需的节奏。

So I took some training on that.

所以我接受了一些这方面的培训。

I worked my mentor on that, and I got so great at offsites after that experience.

我和我的导师一起做了这件事，在那次经历之后我在场外表现得非常好。

I'll tell you that was a real low because in the moment, in that moment, I'm not thinking, "I'm going to get great at offsites." In that moment I'm thinking, "Oh, my God.

我会告诉你，这是一个真正的低点，因为在那一刻，在那一刻，我并没有想，“我会在异地表现出色。”那一刻我在想：“哦，天哪。

I'm going to get...

我要去得到...

What will become of me?" But I turned it into, in my mind's eye, or I should say, I turned it into the ability to build my skills.

我会变成什么样子呢？”但我把它变成了，在我看来，或者我应该说，我把它变成了培养我的技能的能力。

And I just want to tell everybody, even at your lowest moments, anything that you're learning from that, can then be turned into fuel to build your skills to get great at the thing that you're not great at.

我只是想告诉大家，即使在你最低谷的时刻，你从中学到的任何东西都可以转化为燃料，以培养你的技能，让你擅长做你不擅长的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: What I also love about this is there's this feeling of imposter syndrome, is specifically this fear that I do something wrong and it'll all crumble and everyone will see I suck and I never...

Lenny Rachitsky：我也喜欢这个，因为有一种冒名顶替综合症的感觉，特别是担心我做错了什么，一切都会崩溃，每个人都会看到我很糟糕，而我从来没有......

I don't know anything and everyone will see it.

我什么都不知道，大家都会看到。

And I love both these stories are like, it doesn't go well and doesn't crumble.

我喜欢这两个故事，就像，它进展不顺利，也不会崩溃。

You build from there.

你从那里开始构建。

And no one's like, "Oh, Alisa's terrible forever." No, it's like move on to the next thing.

没有人会说，“哦，艾莉莎永远都很糟糕。”不，这就像继续下一件事。

And then you use that as fuel to become really good at this thing that didn't go great.

然后你用它作为燃料，让自己真正擅长做这件不太顺利的事情。

Alisa Cohn: Yeah, that's really well said.

艾莉莎·科恩：是的，说得很好。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Alisa, we covered a lot of stuff.

艾莉莎，我们讨论了很多东西。

Is there anything that you were hoping to cover or you think might be useful for folks to hear before we move to our very exciting lightning round?

在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，有什么您希望介绍的内容或者您认为可能对人们有用的内容吗？

Alisa Cohn: The only last thing I want to talk about, just sort of circling back to your role as a leader, I was one time working with the CEO who was handling the fact that this launch was not going well, as in the launch wasn't happening.

Alisa Cohn：我唯一想谈的最后一件事，只是回到你作为领导者的角色，我有一次与首席执行官一起工作，他正在处理这次发布进展不顺利的事实，因为发布没有发生。

foot off, foot off, foot off.

脚掉了，脚掉了，脚掉了。

And his point of view was, you need to have patience with it as it goes.

他的观点是，你需要对事情的进展有耐心。

And my point of view is, because I've talked to a lot of the people around, was that there was a massive process problem going on that he was not kind of touching into and really investigating because the product manager wasn't experienced, was kind of hiding it because he knew he didn't have the skills, was fighting with engineering, it just wasn't working.

我的观点是，因为我和周围的很多人交谈过，存在一个巨大的流程问题，他没有触及并真正调查，因为产品经理没有经验，有点隐藏它，因为他知道自己没有技能，正在与工程作斗争，但它不起作用。

Alisa Cohn: And when the CEO was telling me, and we really had a long discussion about this where I kind of enlightened him about some of the issues that he needed to get involved and fix, he kept thinking, "I need to have patience." So what I want to say to everybody is, sometimes you need to have patience and sometimes you need to look at the process.

艾丽莎·科恩：当首席执行官告诉我时，我们确实对此进行了长时间的讨论，我启发了他一些他需要参与和解决的问题，他一直在想，“我需要有耐心。”所以我想对大家说的是，有时候需要有耐心，有时候需要看过程。

And I think you, as the leader, need to have the wisdom to know the difference, but also your finger on the pulse to recognize, is this an issue with patience or an issue with process?

我认为，作为领导者，你需要有智慧来区分其中的差异，同时也需要你的手指把握脉搏来认识到，这是耐心的问题还是过程的问题？

Lenny Rachitsky: I guess, is there a sign that you're like, it's probably a process thing and you're just ignoring a glaring problem that everyone else sees?

Lenny Rachitsky：我想，是否有迹象表明，这可能是一个流程问题，而您只是忽略了其他人都看到的一个明显问题？

Alisa Cohn: I think the sign is when, if you search your mind, you don't really know how this thing is going to come together.

艾丽莎·科恩：我认为标志是，如果你扪心自问，你并不真正知道这件事将如何结合在一起。

There's no plan in your mind.

你脑子里没有计划。

You haven't touched in with people or talked to people about what's going on.

您还没有与人们接触或与人们谈论正在发生的事情。

You kind of hear this uncomfortable silence about it.

你会听到这种令人不安的沉默。

Those are symptoms that you just need to dive deeper and just be a little more in touch with what's going on and talk to some folks and look at some data.

这些症状表明您只需要更深入地研究，更多地了解正在发生的事情，与一些人交谈并查看一些数据。

And by the way, it might not be a massive process problem.

顺便说一句，这可能不是一个严重的流程问题。

It might just be one little thing that needs to get unstuck but you, as the leader, need to recognize that and figure out a way to make that unstuck.

这可能只是一件需要摆脱困境的小事，但作为领导者，你需要认识到这一点，并找到一种方法来摆脱困境。

And if there's, of course, a big problem that needs to somehow be just surfaced.

当然，如果有一个大问题需要以某种方式浮出水面。

Lenny Rachitsky: So if there's this hope this'll work out versus I see a path to this working out, it's probably a problem.

Lenny Rachitsky：因此，如果存在这种希望，而我看到了解决问题的途径，那么这可能是一个问题。

Awesome.

惊人的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there anything else that you wanted to share or touch on that you think might be helpful?

Lenny Rachitsky：您还有什么想分享或触及的您认为可能有帮助的事情吗？

Alisa Cohn: We talked a little about the co-founders prenup, which I think people would think, "Well, I'm not a co-founder, I don't need that." I just want to invite everyone to also think about a different tool that I have, which is called the Personal Operating Manual.

艾丽莎·科恩：我们讨论了一些关于联合创始人婚前协议的问题，我认为人们会想，“好吧，我不是联合创始人，我不需要那样。”我只是想邀请大家也考虑一下我拥有的一个不同的工具，它被称为个人操作手册。

And it helps prompt you to talk about working style together because you may not be co-founders, of course, but you're working on a team with a bunch of people and they all have their different working style.

这有助于促使你们一起讨论工作风格，因为当然，你们可能不是联合创始人，但你们在一个由一群人组成的团队中工作，他们都有不同的工作风格。

Alisa Cohn: So it's kinds of questions like, what communication style do you like the best?

Alisa Cohn：所以问题是这样的，你最喜欢哪种沟通方式？

How do you like to work?

你喜欢怎样工作？

Do you like large uninterrupted blocks?

您喜欢不间断的大块吗？

Do you like meetings here and there?

您喜欢到处开会吗？

When I'm trying to get a hold of you for something important, what's the best way to do that?

当我试图联系你处理一些重要的事情时，最好的方法是什么？

What is one of your pet peeves or some of your pet peeves?

您最讨厌的事情之一或您最讨厌的事情是什么？

How can I get a gold star with you?

我怎样才能和你一起获得金星？

Also, this is my favorite.

另外，这是我最喜欢的。

What's your delegation style?

您的代表团风格是什么？

Alisa Cohn: Do you want me to check in with you regularly, like once a week as I'm working down the path of a project?

Alisa Cohn：您希望我在项目进展过程中定期与您联系吗？比如每周一次？

Or do you want me to just let you know when it's done and just tell you at the end that it's been complete?

或者您希望我在完成时通知您并在最后告诉您它已经完成？

So lots of different ways people assume other people work because it's like your style, but actually it's just your style.

人们假设其他人的工作方式有很多不同，因为这就像你的风格，但实际上这只是你的风格。

So those kinds of conversations can be great for working together and also be a great team activity.

因此，此类对话非常适合一起工作，也是一项很棒的团队活动。

Lenny Rachitsky: So this kind of what goes into these READMEs people put together, here's how to-

Lenny Rachitsky：所以人们将这些自述文件放在一起，以下是如何-

Lenny Rachitsky: ...

莱尼·拉奇茨基：……

work with me.

和我一起工作。

I really love the gold star concept because I feel like people want to know how do I be super awesome?

我真的很喜欢金星的概念，因为我觉得人们想知道我如何变得超级棒？

How do I be really successful working for you?

我怎样才能真正成功地为您工作？

And I like that visual of the gold star and the pet peeves.

我喜欢金星和令人烦恼的视觉效果。

I feel like a lot of people will identify that.

我感觉很多人都会认同这一点。

What are my pet peeves so that people don't do these things because they don't know, right?

我最讨厌的是什么，这样人们就不会因为不知道而做这些事情，对吧？

They don't know until you tell them.

他们不知道，直到你告诉他们。

Alisa Cohn: Nobody knows what's your operating style until you tell them.

Alisa Cohn：在您告诉他们之前，没有人知道您的运营风格是什么。

And the more you can showcase, the more everybody will be able to do it right for you and you'll be able to do it right for them.

您展示的内容越多，每个人就越能够为您做正确的事情，您也将能够为他们做正确的事情。

And then you'll be able to have better workplace harmony and save your conflict with things that are really important.

然后，您将能够在工作场所实现更好的和谐，并避免与真正重要的事情发生冲突。

Not just because like, "Oh, you didn't text me when I wanted you to text me."

不仅仅是因为，“哦，当我想让你给我发短信时，你却没有给我发短信。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Being clear.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：说清楚。

What do you know?

你知道什么？

Is there anything else that you think might be helpful to share before we get to a very exciting lightning round?

在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您认为还有什么可以分享的吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Well, with that, Alisa, we reached our very exciting lightning round.

Lenny Rachitsky：嗯，Alisa，我们就这样进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Here we go.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我们开始吧。

First question, are there two or three books that you find yourself most recommending to other people?

第一个问题，您最推荐给其他人的有两三本书吗？

Alisa Cohn: So we already talked about Kim Scott, the wonderful, amazing Kim Scott and her book, Radical Candor, is one I recommend a lot to people.

艾丽莎·科恩：我们已经讨论过金·斯科特，这位出色、令人惊叹的金·斯科特和她的书《激进的坦率》是我向人们推荐的一本。

It's fantastic.

太棒了。

Working Backwards by gosh, Colin Bryar and Bill something, is about sort of the Amazon way of working backwards from the customer.

天哪，科林·布莱尔和比尔的《逆向工作》是亚马逊从客户角度逆向工作的方式。

Super geeky and tactical.

超级极客和战术。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

I slurp it up like Harry Potter.

我像哈利·波特一样狼吞虎咽。

It's so good.

太好了。

And I definitely recommend to my clients about Amazon's Management Science.

我绝对向我的客户推荐亚马逊的管理科学。

And the third is Walt Disney by Neil Gabler because it really shows how Walt Disney, sort of it's everything about his youth and how he turned into a very bad entrepreneur and ultimately into a fantastic inventive entrepreneur.

第三个是尼尔·加布勒（Neil Gabler）的《华特·迪士尼》（Walt Disney），因为它真实地展示了华特·迪士尼（Walt Disney）如何，可以说是他年轻时的一切，以及他如何变成一个非常糟糕的企业家，并最终成为一个出色的创造性企业家。

And it shows all the origins of how he invented these different pieces that now make up the Walt Disney Company.

它展示了他如何发明这些不同作品的所有起源，这些作品现在构成了华特迪士尼公司。

Lenny Rachitsky: The first two recommendations we've had on the podcast, Kim Scott and Bill Carr, is the other-

Lenny Rachitsky：我们在播客上收到的前两个推荐是 Kim Scott 和 Bill Carr，另一个是——

Lenny Rachitsky: ...

莱尼·拉奇茨基：……

co-author.

共同作者。

He's been on the podcast and people love that episode.

他一直在播客上，人们喜欢那一集。

I haven't had Walt Disney on.

我还没有看过华特迪士尼。

I got to work on that.

我必须为此努力。

Lenny Rachitsky: Or the writer.

Lenny Rachitsky：或者作家。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

Good tip.

好提示。

Okay, next question.

好的，下一个问题。

Is there a favorite recent movie or TV show you really enjoy?

最近有没有您真正喜欢的最喜欢的电影或电视节目？

Alisa Cohn: Yeah, I enjoyed Inside Out 2.

Alisa Cohn：是的，我喜欢《头脑特工队 2》。

I thought it was fantastic, the idea .

我觉得这个主意太棒了。

Lenny Rachitsky: I could see why you love it.

Lenny Rachitsky：我明白你为什么喜欢它。

I feel like it's for all coaches in the world.

我觉得这适合世界上所有的教练。

Alisa Cohn: Totally.

艾莉莎·科恩：完全可以。

Just the idea that like, oh yeah, we're all this complex stew of emotions and it's okay.

只是这样的想法，哦，是的，我们都是复杂的情绪混合物，没关系。

Lenny Rachitsky: Mm-hmm.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：嗯嗯。

I also love that movie.

我也喜欢那部电影。

Next question.

下一个问题。

Do you have a favorite product you recently discovered that you really love?

您最近发现了您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？

Alisa Cohn: Yes, the Ninja Creami.

艾丽莎·科恩：是的，就是《忍者奶油》。

So good.

超好的。

Alisa Cohn: The Ninja Creami turns anything into ice cream.

Alisa Cohn：Ninja Creami 将任何东西变成冰淇淋。

So you can actually make ice cream.

所以你实际上可以制作冰淇淋。

Good, God bless.

很好，上帝保佑。

But I take my protein shake, which is okay, and turn it into ice cream, which is delicious.

但我把我的蛋白质奶昔，这还可以，然后把它变成冰淇淋，这很美味。

And it takes 10 minutes and very little prep, and it's simple to use and it works as expected, which so many things do not.

它只需要 10 分钟，几乎不需要做任何准备，而且使用起来很简单，并且可以按预期工作，而这是很多事情都做不到的。

The Ninja Creami, go get it.

忍者奶油，去拿吧。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's the first for the Ninja Creami.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是 Ninja Creami 的第一个。

And I love, the holidays are coming around, so this is going to be good for people.

我喜欢，假期即将到来，所以这对人们有好处。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to you find useful in work or in life?

您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，并且经常回想起来，发现它在工作或生活中很有用？

Alisa Cohn: This quote by Joseph Campbell animates my life, which is, "If you can see your path all the way through to the end, you are following someone else's path.

艾莉莎·科恩：约瑟夫·坎贝尔的这句话激励了我的生活，那就是：“如果你能看到自己的道路一直走到最后，那么你就是在追随别人的道路。

Your path only becomes clear moment by moment as each foot hits the ground."

只有当每只脚落地时，你的道路才会变得清晰。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, that's so good.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇，那太好了。

It's so empowering because it helps you realize if you don't see where it's all going, that's normal and that's good.

它是如此强大，因为它可以帮助你意识到，如果你看不到一切的发展方向，那是正常的，那是好的。

Wow.

哇。

Great one, good one.

很棒的一个，很好的一个。

I need to do something with all these mottos.

我需要用所有这些座右铭做一些事情。

They're so good.

他们太好了。

I need to create a poster or something.

我需要创建一张海报或其他东西。

Alisa Cohn: That's a great idea.

艾莉莎·科恩：这是个好主意。

Or your newsletter.

或者你的时事通讯。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, that's the easy path.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，这是一条简单的道路。

Okay.

好的。

Last question.

最后一个问题。

So I'm curious, and not to create more competition for you, but I feel like a lot of people think about becoming a coach of some kind, like a product coach, exec coach.

所以我很好奇，并不是为了给你制造更多的竞争，但我觉得很多人都在考虑成为某种类型的教练，比如产品教练、执行教练。

If someone is thinking about going down that path, is there one piece of advice you could share to help them pursue this path, even explore if it's right for them?

如果有人正在考虑走这条路，您是否可以分享一条建议来帮助他们走这条路，甚至探索这条路是否适合他们？

Alisa Cohn: If you think you want to become a coach and you immediately want to build up your coaching skills, listen to people more deeply and ask deeper questions, not just respond to what they just said, but why do you think that?

艾丽莎·科恩：如果你认为自己想成为一名教练，并且想立即提高自己的教练技能，请更深入地倾听人们的意见并提出更深层次的问题，而不仅仅是回应他们刚才所说的内容，但你为什么这么认为呢？

Or where is that coming from?

或者说它是从哪里来的？

And you will see if you enjoy that process of really going deeper with people.

你会看到你是否喜欢与人真正深入交流的过程。

I think that would be helpful for everyone to do.

我认为这对每个人都会有所帮助。

But certainly if you want to become a coach, I think that's essential to be able to get really beneath the surface.

但当然，如果你想成为一名教练，我认为能够真正深入到表面之下是至关重要的。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love how your energy just changed into coaching mode when you said that.

Lenny Rachitsky：当你这么说时，我很喜欢你的精力转变为教练模式。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

That was such an interesting thing to see and that was great advice.

这是一件非常有趣的事情，也是很好的建议。

That's easier said than done.

说起来容易做起来难。

And it's interesting, you could tell people are so good at that specific skill versus not.

有趣的是，你可以看出人们是否擅长某项特定技能。

And so I love that that's the thing to work on, is ask better questions, think deeper about the person and what they're coming from.

所以我喜欢这就是要努力的事情，就是提出更好的问题，更深入地思考这个人以及他们来自哪里。

Alisa, this was incredible.

艾莉莎，这太不可思议了。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you if they want to reach out, maybe work with you, what kind of people do you work with in case people are interested in that, and finally, how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想联系你，可以在哪里找到你，也许和你一起工作，如果人们对此感兴趣的话，你会和什么样的人一起工作，最后，听众如何对你有用？

Alisa Cohn: Oh, thank you.

艾莉莎·科恩：哦，谢谢。

Well, I work with executives at startups and also at large public companies, so feel free to reach out if you want to have a conversation about coaching.

嗯，我与初创公司和大型上市公司的高管一起工作，所以如果您想就辅导进行对话，请随时与我联系。

And you can find me at alisacohn.com.

您可以在 alisacohn.com 找到我。

And actually, I'm going to take some resources and put them at a special link, which is alisacohn.com/lenny.

实际上，我将获取一些资源并将它们放在一个特殊的链接上，即 alisacohn.com/lenny。

If you want to download the Co-Founder Prenup.

如果您想下载联合创始人婚前协议。

I also have a Personal Operating Manual and a few other resources I will put there.

我还有一本个人操作手册和一些其他资源，我将放在那里。

So alisacohn.com/lenny and you can also join my newsletter from there.

所以 alisacohn.com/lenny 您也可以从那里加入我的时事通讯。

Alisa Cohn: And I think in terms of helping me, I guess there's two things I want to say.

Alisa Cohn：我认为就帮助我而言，我想我想说两件事。

My life's work genuinely is to make a difference.

我一生的工作真正就是要有所作为。

When I became a coach, it was because the music in my head was to make a difference.

当我成为一名教练时，是因为我脑海中的音乐能够带来改变。

And so I hope I've made a difference for all of you today and I would invite you to try one thing that makes you uncomfortable, this week.

所以我希望今天我为你们所有人带来了改变，我会邀请你们本周尝试一件让你们不舒服的事情。

As soon as you hear this, this week, try something that makes you uncomfortable and feel free to let me know on LinkedIn or even send me an email and let me know what you did that made you uncomfortable.

本周，一旦你听到这个消息，就尝试一些让你不舒服的事情，并随时在 LinkedIn 上告诉我，甚至给我发一封电子邮件，让我知道你做了什么让你不舒服的事情。

Alisa Cohn: So that would be very meaningful to me.

Alisa Cohn：这对我来说非常有意义。

And the second thing that would be very meaningful to me is if you would go find my podcast called, From Start-Up to Grown-Up and give it a listen.

对我来说非常有意义的第二件事是，如果你能找到我的播客“从初创到成长”并听一听。

Maybe give it a rating and review because as you know, Lenny, the way people find your podcast is when other people are interested in your podcast.

也许给它一个评级和评论，因为正如你所知，莱尼，人们找到你的播客的方式是当其他人对你的播客感兴趣时。

Lenny Rachitsky: From Start-Up to Grown-Up.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：从初创公司到成熟公司。

I love that title.

我喜欢这个标题。

Lenny Rachitsky: Alisa, thank you so much for being here.

Lenny Rachitsky：Alisa，非常感谢你来到这里。

This was awesome.

这太棒了。

Alisa Cohn: Thank you so much for having me, Lenny.

艾丽莎·科恩：非常感谢你邀请我，莱尼。

It was great.

太棒了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Bye everyone.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：大家再见。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。