'Thinking like a gardener, slime mold, the adjacent possible: Product advice from Alex Komoroske'

Alex Komoroske: So much of the way that we tackle problems and build products is this builder mindset.

Alex Komoroske：我们解决问题和构建产品的大部分方式都是这种构建者心态。

It's like I have a plan.

就好像我有一个计划。

I then manipulate things to match my plan and make it happen.

然后我会操纵事情来符合我的计划并使其发生。

And this is a way you can create tons of value.

这是一种可以创造大量价值的方式。

Part of the problem though is it can't possibly create more value than the effort that you put into it.

但问题的一部分是它不可能创造比你投入的努力更多的价值。

What I look for instead are things that can be gardened, things that can grow on their own and that you can direct or maybe give a little bit of extra energy to or curate over, and is a totally different mindset for it.

相反，我寻找的是可以种植的东西，可以自行生长的东西，你可以指导或者可能给予一点额外的能量或策划的东西，并且是一种完全不同的心态。

If you do this properly, it looks like magic.

如果你做得正确，它看起来就像魔术一样。

I've been told that this is completely against all the advice that people get, including products nowadays, but I think it's a very powerful approach that works in a lot of different contexts.

有人告诉我，这完全违背了人们得到的所有建议，包括当今的产品，但我认为这是一种非常强大的方法，可以在很多不同的情况下发挥作用。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Alex Komoroske.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天，我的客人是 Alex Komoroske。

Alex is one of the most original, articulate, and first principle thinkers on the future of product and tech that I've ever come across.

亚历克斯是我所见过的对产品和技术的未来最有创意、最善于表达、最有原则的思想家之一。

This conversation will get your brain buzzing in all kinds of ways.

这次谈话会让你的大脑以各种方式嗡嗡作响。

Alex spent 13 years at Google where he worked on Search, DoubleClick.

Alex 在 Google 工作了 13 年，负责搜索和 DoubleClick 工作。

He led Chrome's Open Web Platform team for eight years, led augmented reality within Google Maps, and developed a new toolkit to align company-wide strategy from the bottom up.

他领导了 Chrome 的开放网络平台团队八年，领导了 Google 地图中的增强现实，并开发了一个新的工具包来自下而上地协调全公司的战略。

After a stint at Stripe as head of corporate strategy, he's currently founding a startup that aims to reimagine the web for the AI era.

在 Stripe 担任企业战略主管一段时间后，他目前正在创办一家初创公司，旨在重新构想人工智能时代的网络。

Lenny Rachitsky: In our wide-ranging conversation, we cover how LLMs and gen AI will impact how we build product in the coming years, what skills will matter most as AI becomes a bigger part of our lives, what companies can learn from slime mold, organizational kayfabe, the adjacent possible, strategy salons, why you should be thinking more like a gardener than a builder, plus a bunch of productivity tips, life advice, and so much more.

Lenny Rachitsky：在我们广泛的对话中，我们讨论了法学硕士和新一代人工智能将如何影响我们在未来几年构建产品的方式，随着人工智能成为我们生活中更重要的一部分，什么技能最重要，公司可以从粘液霉菌、组织 kayfabe、相邻的可能性、战略沙龙中学到什么，为什么你应该像园丁而不是建筑商那样思考，再加上一堆生产力技巧、生活建议等等。

This was such a fun episode, and I'm sure this is going to get your mind thinking in completely new ways.

这是非常有趣的一集，我相信这会让你的思维以全新的方式思考。

Lenny Rachitsky: If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

It's the best way to avoid missing feature episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously.

这是避免错过专题节目的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

With that, I bring you Alex Komoroske.

接下来，我为您带来 Alex Komoroske。

Lenny Rachitsky: Alex, thank you so much for being here, and welcome to the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：Alex，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love the way your brain works.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你大脑的工作方式。

My brain immediately starts buzzing anytime I start reading some of your stuff.

每当我开始阅读你的一些东西时，我的大脑就会立即开始嗡嗡作响。

And one of the more interesting things that you write and do and a really interesting habit you have is you actually have this doc that you keep called Bits and Bobs that I love, and we're going to be touching on a lot of the things that you share in this doc, Bits and Bobs, and we'll link to it.

你写和做的更有趣的事情之一以及你拥有的一个非常有趣的习惯是你实际上有这个我喜欢的文档，你一直称之为《Bits and Bobs》，我们将讨论你在这个文档《Bits and Bobs》中分享的很多内容，我们将链接到它。

First of all, can you just explain this doc, Bits and Bobs, what's it about?

首先，你能解释一下这个文档《Bits and Bobs》，它是关于什么的吗？

Alex Komoroske: Yeah.

亚历克斯·科莫罗斯克：是的。

I think it's like 600 pages now.

我想现在大概有600页了。

It's this one Google Doc.

这是一份 Google 文档。

Every so often, almost every day, someone will accidentally add a suggestion like add a space or something because it takes so long to load that while they're waiting, they'll tap on the screen and then it'll turn into taps on adding a comment or something.

每隔一段时间，几乎每天，有人会意外地添加建议，例如添加空格或其他内容，因为加载时间太长，以至于在等待时，他们会点击屏幕，然后会变成点击添加评论或其他内容。

And I take a lot of notes.

我做了很多笔记。

And people, I tell people when I'm in meetings with them of like, "If you see me on my phone or typing, that means I think you said something very interesting and I'm writing it down.

当我与人们开会时，我告诉人们，“如果你看到我在打电话或打字，这意味着我认为你说了一些非常有趣的事情，我正在把它写下来。

It's not that I'm just that I'm disengaged.

这并不是说我只是脱离了。

I try to collect all these ideas." And then once a week, I go through, I take a few hours and I just reflect to myself and try to find patterns and unpack and find meaning and things.

我尝试收集所有这些想法。”然后每周一次，我会花几个小时回顾一下自己，尝试找到模式、解开并找到意义和事物。

And I write those down and I started sometime in the past sharing those publicly, and it's now become a thing I literally can't stop doing.

我把这些写下来，并在过去的某个时候开始公开分享这些内容，现在它已经成为我无法停止做的事情。

Alex Komoroske: I just find someone who was like, "Oh, if you get more exposure for this, if you broke these up into tweets that you sent out once throughout the day," it's like, I did this for me.

Alex Komoroske：我只是发现有人说，“哦，如果你因此获得更多曝光，如果你将这些内容分解成推文并在一天中发送一次，”就好像，我为自己做了这件事。

I'm happy to let other people see and peek into my weird mental process if they want, but this is 100% about my own self-reflection.

如果其他人愿意的话，我很乐意让他们看到和窥探我奇怪的心理过程，但这 100% 是我自己的自我反思。

And it's not designed.

而且它不是设计的。

I don't want anyone to feel compelled to read it or...

我不希望任何人感到有必要阅读它，或者......

In fact, it's designed a little bit to be, I allow myself to be a little bit illegible.

事实上，它的设计有点像，我让自己有点难以辨认。

I want people to have to work a little bit with it.

我希望人们必须为此付出一些努力。

And it's not going to lay it out on a platter.

而且它不会把它放在盘子上。

It's going to jump between different things.

它会在不同的事物之间跳转。

I'll use terminology sometimes that is, what are you talking about?

有时我会使用术语，即，你在说什么？

And I do that specifically.

我专门这样做。

I don't want anyone to read and be like, "Oh, it sucks.

我不想让任何人读完后说：“哦，这太糟糕了。

It wasn't worth my time." It's like, "Cool." It's a 600-page Google Doc of my just unspooled insights.

这不值得我花时间。”就像“酷”一样。这是一份长达 600 页的 Google 文档，其中包含了我刚刚展开的见解。

It's okay for you to not want to dive into that.

你不想深入研究这个问题也没关系。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Eppo.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Eppo 为您带来。

Eppo is a next generation A/B testing and feature management platform built by alums of Airbnb and Snowflake for modern growth teams, companies like Twitch, Meero, ClickUp and DraftKings rely on Eppo to power their experiments.

Eppo 是由 Airbnb 和 Snowflake 的校友为现代增长团队构建的下一代 A/B 测试和功能管理平台，Twitch、Meero、ClickUp 和 DraftKings 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。

Experimentation is increasingly essential for driving growth and for understanding the performance of new features.

实验对于推动增长和了解新功能的性能越来越重要。

And Eppo helps you increase experimentation velocity while unlocking rigorous deep analysis in a way that no other commercial tool does.

Eppo 可以帮助您提高实验速度，同时以其他商业工具无法做到的方式解锁严格的深度分析。

Lenny Rachitsky: When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved most was our experimentation platform where I could set up experiments easily, troubleshoot issues, and analyze performance all on my own.

Lenny Rachitsky：当我在 Airbnb 时，我最喜欢的事情之一就是我们的实验平台，在这里我可以轻松地设置实验、解决问题并自行分析性能。

Eppo does all that and more with advanced statistical methods that can help you shape weeks off experiment time, and accessible UI for diving deeper into performance, and out-of-the-box reporting that helps you avoid annoying prolonged analytic cycles.

Eppo 通过先进的统计方法实现了这一切以及更多功能，可以帮助您节省数周的实验时间，可访问的 UI 可以更深入地了解性能，开箱即用的报告可以帮助您避免烦人的长时间分析周期。

Eppo also makes it easy for you to share experiment insights with your team, sparking new ideas for the A/B testing flywheel.

Eppo 还使您可以轻松地与您的团队分享实验见解，激发 A/B 测试飞轮的新想法。

Eppo powers experimentation across every use case, including product, growth, machine learning, monetization, and email marketing.

Eppo 为每个用例提供实验支持，包括产品、增长、机器学习、货币化和电子邮件营销。

Check out Eppo at geteppo.com/lenny and 10X your experiment velocity.

请访问 geteppo.com/lenny 查看 Eppo，将您的实验速度提高 10 倍。

That's geteppo.com/lenny.

那是 geteppo.com/lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Vanta.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Vanta 为您带来。

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当谈到确保您的公司拥有一流的安全实践时，事情很快就会变得复杂。

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现在，您可以使用单一平台 Vanta 评估风险、确保客户信任并自动实现 SOC 2、ISO 27001、HIPAA 等合规性。

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Vanta 市场领先的信任管理平台可帮助您持续监控合规性以及报告和跟踪风险。

Plus, you can save hours by completing security questionnaires with Vanta AI.

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加入数千家使用 Vanta 自动化证据收集、统一风险管理和简化安全审查的全球公司行列。

Get $1,000 off Vanta when you go to vanta.com/lenny.

访问vanta.com/lenny，可享受 Vanta 立减 1,000 美元的优惠。

That's vanta.com/lenny.

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Alex Komoroske: I started it many years ago in the same conceptual thing, taking a bunch of notes.

Alex Komoroske：我多年前就开始了同样的概念性工作，记了一堆笔记。

I have a thing called The Compendium, which is an open source tool.

我有一个叫做 The Compendium 的东西，它是一个开源工具。

If you look at it currently, it looks like I haven't touched it in years, but that's actually incorrect.

如果你现在看的话，看起来我已经好几年没有碰过它了，但这实际上是不正确的。

I built this about five years ago.

我大约五年前建造了这个。

I use it every day.

我每天都用它。

And so I have, I think let's see, I currently have 17,248 unpublished working notes.

所以我想让我们看看，我目前有 17,248 份未发表的工作笔记。

And so what I do during the week is I'm taking notes very quickly in meetings, and then every day or two, I go through and I process them and put them in as working notes in The Compendium, and this is where I correct misspellings.

因此，我在一周内所做的就是在会议中快速记笔记，然后每一两天，我都会浏览并处理它们，并将它们作为工作笔记放入《纲要》中，这就是我纠正拼写错误的地方。

I add just a little bit more context so that it will make sense to me if I were to read it in a year.

我添加了一些更多的背景信息，这样如果我在一年内阅读它，它对我来说就会有意义。

Alex Komoroske: And also, I built a feature into it that uses embeddings to find similar cards.

Alex Komoroske：而且，我还内置了一个功能，使用嵌入来查找相似的卡片。

I find similar ideas from the past.

我从过去发现了类似的想法。

And then what I do on Friday afternoons is I sit down and I go through all the notes I added that week and I just click and check the ones that still resonate with me, they still seem interesting in some way.

然后我在周五下午所做的就是坐下来，浏览我那周添加的所有笔记，然后我只需单击并检查那些仍然与我产生共鸣的笔记，它们在某种程度上看起来仍然很有趣。

And then I have a little export thing.

然后我还有一点出口的事情。

I put it into a Google Doc, and while the kids are napping on the weekends, I just go through them and try to distill them a little bit more in a more long-term format.

我把它放入谷歌文档中，当孩子们在周末打盹时，我只是浏览它们并尝试以更长期的格式进一步提炼它们。

And then on Monday mornings, I publish them.

然后在周一早上，我发布它们。

And again, it's a deep...

再说一次，这是一个深...

For me, it's like I can't imagine not doing this.

对我来说，我无法想象不这样做。

It is the place where I find most of my most interesting insights is by reflecting on interesting conversations from the week before.

在这里，我发现大部分最有趣的见解都是通过反思前一周的有趣对话而获得的。

Lenny Rachitsky: As we get into the conversation, people get to see how deeply you think about stuff.

Lenny Rachitsky：当我们开始对话时，人们会看到你对事物的思考有多深入。

Part of the reason you're able to think so deeply about stuff is you have this practice where you take time to reflect and share and crystallize.

你之所以能够对事物进行如此深入的思考，部分原因是你有这样的习惯，即你花时间去反思、分享和具体化。

There's so much power in just forcing yourself to write it out, I imagine versus, just not.

我想，强迫自己把它写出来有很大的力量，但事实并非如此。

Alex Komoroske: 100%.

亚历克斯·科莫罗斯克：100%。

I find that when you're busy, you're constantly just go, go, go, go.

我发现当你很忙的时候，你总是不停地走、走、走、走。

There's no time to do any deep thinking.

没有时间做任何深入的思考。

Deep thinking takes time and space, and you got to create that space.

深度思考需要时间和空间，而你必须创造那个空间。

The mundane, pointless bullshit will take every square inch you give it.

世俗的、毫无意义的废话会占据你所付出的每一寸土地。

So you got to make that space to sit back and reflect and luxuriate in these ideas.

所以你必须腾出空间来坐下来反思并沉浸在这些想法中。

And when you do, you're often like, "Oh my God.

当你这样做时，你常常会说，“天哪。

Oh wow, that's one I'll keep."

哦，哇，那是我要保留的。”

Alex Komoroske: And I told people, back at the very beginning of my career, I used to work from home on Fridays.

Alex Komoroske：我告诉人们，在我职业生涯的初期，我曾经在周五在家工作。

And people gave me so much shit for this and they'd say, "Oh, you're working from home on Fridays." First of all, I will line up my output any day of the week.

人们为此对我大加指责，他们会说，“哦，你周五在家工作。”首先，我会在一周中的任何一天排列我的输出。

I'm very proud of the impact I've had.

我对自己所产生的影响感到非常自豪。

Second of all, Monday through Thursday, I'm in meetings from 8:00 to 6:00 or whatever.

其次，周一到周四，我从 8:00 到 6:00 或其他时间参加会议。

I'm just running between.

我只是在两者之间奔跑。

I'm singing, pinging people and scheduling things and flinging action items.

我一边唱歌，一边给人们打电话，安排事情，扔东西。

And the one day I don't take meetings is on Friday, and that's the day I read documents carefully that people had sent me or reflect.

我不参加会议的一天是星期五，这一天我会仔细阅读人们发给我或反映的文件。

And I think to myself, what is the thing that if I had done it before the week started would've saved me tons of time and effort that week?

我对自己说，如果我在本周开始之前完成这件事，那周会节省我大量的时间和精力吗？

Alex Komoroske: So for example, maybe in 10 different one-on-ones with people on the team, I had to explain to them a strategic thing that we were doing or a change that we were making.

Alex Komoroske：举个例子，也许在与团队成员进行 10 次不同的一对一会谈中，我必须向他们解释我们正在做的战略性事情或我们正在做出的改变。

And the idea and the way I framed it worked for everybody.

我的想法和构建它的方式对每个人都有效。

Well, you know what?

嗯，你知道吗？

That should probably be a document, right?

那应该是一个文件，对吧？

If the same idea worked for 10 different people and now in the future there's probably 10 other people that need to hear it, and now I'll write that document in 30 minutes and now I have it as a memorialized thing that other people can read on their own time without having to involve me.

如果同一个想法对 10 个不同的人有效，那么将来可能还有另外 10 个人需要听到它，现在我将在 30 分钟内写出该文档，现在我将其作为纪念，其他人可以在自己的时间阅读，而不必涉及我。

Alex Komoroske: And you also find these interesting ideas sometimes where you look at this problem that you're banging your head against, you go, "Oh wait, if I will like that, that would've a wildly different dynamic." And you can only find those when you take a step back.

Alex Komoroske：有时你也会发现这些有趣的想法，当你看到这个你正在努力解决的问题时，你会说，“哦等等，如果我愿意的话，那将会有一个截然不同的动态。”只有退一步才能找到这些。

And I find that people, I told someone, I mentored someone, I've mentored hundreds of PMs over the years and I told someone that at one point and they go, "Oh, I wish I had the time." And it's like, you got to make the time.

我发现人们，我告诉某人，我指导过某人，这些年来我指导过数百名产品经理，我告诉某人，在某一时刻，他们会说，“哦，我希望我有时间。”就像，你必须腾出时间。

All of us are busy and we will always be busy.

我们所有人都很忙，而且我们将永远忙碌。

And so this to me is not something I do to just for the enjoyment of all.

所以这对我来说并不是为了让所有人享受而做的事情。

I do deeply enjoy it intrinsically.

我本质上确实很享受它。

It's something I do because I think it makes me more productive and effective.

我这样做是因为我认为这能让我更有生产力和效率。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm very tempted to go down a whole direction of just how you structure your time and your productivity calendar and all this stuff, but I'm not going to do that.

Lenny Rachitsky：我很想全面了解如何安排时间、生产力日历以及所有这些东西，但我不会那样做。

That could be another episode if I do.

如果我这样做的话，那可能是另一集。

Lenny Rachitsky: What I want to do instead is pick on some of the Bits and Bobs that you've been focusing on noodling on that I think are going to be really helpful to listeners in how they think about product and the future of AI and all these things that I think are emerging.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想做的是挑选一些你们一直在关注的点滴，我认为这对听众如何看待产品和人工智能的未来以及我认为正在出现的所有这些事情非常有帮助。

And the first one is actually that I want to get your thoughts on how AI and LLMs are likely to impact product development.

第一个实际上是我想了解您对人工智能和法学硕士可能如何影响产品开发的想法。

A lot of the listeners of this podcast are PMs, engineers, founders, people building software, and you're spending a lot of time thinking about AI and product development.

该播客的许多听​​众都是产品经理、工程师、创始人、软件构建人员，并且您花费了大量时间思考人工智能和产品开发。

A lot of your Bits and Bobs have been just like, "Here's what's happening.

你们中的很多人都在说：“这就是发生的事情。

Holy shit.

天哪。

This is how things are going to be." So let me just ask you this how do you anticipate LLMs and gen AI are going to change how products are built in the next three to five years?

事情就是这样。”那么，让我问您，您预计法学硕士和人工智能将如何改变未来三到五年内产品的构建方式？

Alex Komoroske: I think they change a lot.

Alex Komoroske：我认为他们改变了很多。

I think LLMs are truly a disruptive technology.

我认为法学硕士确实是一项颠覆性技术。

In fact, I would argue that what we're seeing in the industry is us trying to use mature playbooks from the end stage of the last tech era in one that doesn't really fit yet.

事实上，我认为，我们在行业中看到的是，我们试图将上一个科技时代末期的成熟剧本运用到一个尚不适合的剧本中。

To me, LLMs are magical duct tape.

对我来说，法学硕士是神奇的胶带。

They're formed principally by the distilled intuition of all of society into a thing that operates between, a cost structure between human and plain old computing.

它们主要是由全社会的直觉蒸馏形成的，是在人类和普通旧计算之间的成本结构之间运行的东西。

So much of how the industry is built presupposes the idea that software is expensive to write and cheap to run, and LLMs undermine both of these.

这个行业的构建方式在很大程度上预设了这样一种想法：软件编写成本昂贵，运行成本低廉，而法学硕士破坏了这两点。

So it makes it LLMs allow writing shitty software to be significantly cheaper, not necessarily good software, but good enough in certain contexts.

因此，法学硕士使得编写糟糕的软件变得更加便宜，不一定是好软件，但在某些情况下足够好。

And also it means that there's certain software now that isn't plain old computing that can be run cheaply.

这也意味着现在有些软件不是普通的旧式计算，可以廉价运行。

It's relatively expensive marginal cost.

这是相对昂贵的边际成本。

Alex Komoroske: And so if you're going to do a consumer startup, it can't be based on advertising.

Alex Komoroske：因此，如果你要创办一家消费者初创公司，它就不能基于广告。

It's just too expensive.

就是太贵了。

Advertising cannot clear the inference costs even with inference costs declining.

即使推理成本下降，广告也无法清除推理成本。

So I think the way to me, a disruptive technology changes tons of stuff, all these assumptions you didn't even realize you were making because you didn't realize it could be any different.

所以我认为对我来说，颠覆性技术改变了很多东西，所有这些你甚至没有意识到你正在做出的假设，因为你没有意识到它可能有任何不同。

Alex Komoroske: Imagine if you were locked in a room for your entire career, no windows, and you have all these experiences.

Alex Komoroske：想象一下，如果你整个职业生涯都被锁在一个没有窗户的房间里，而你却拥有所有这些经历。

You're going all this know how.

你知道如何去做这一切。

You're getting this sense of how things work, what will happen.

你会感觉到事情是如何运作的，将会发生什么。

And then imagine that room tilts on its axis by five degrees.

然后想象房间沿其轴线倾斜五度。

Everything looks roughly the same, and yet now the dynamics of the force of gravity is pulling in a different direction than it was before.

一切看起来都大致相同，但现在重力的动力学正朝着与以前不同的方向发展。

You didn't even think about the force of gravity before because it was so omnipresent.

你以前甚至没有考虑过重力，因为它是如此无所不在。

It never changed that it's just a blank in your head.

它永远不会改变，它只是你头脑中的一片空白。

And now gravity has changed effectively for your perspective and all kinds of intuition is now wrong.

现在，重力已经有效地改变了你的视角，所有的直觉现在都是错误的。

I put this thing on the table, it's going to stay there, and then it slides off and falls into the wall.

我把这个东西放在桌子上，它会留在那里，然后它就会滑落到墙上。

All kinds of weird stuff will happen.

各种奇怪的事情都会发生。

Alex Komoroske: And I think LLMs to me feel like that.

Alex Komoroske：我认为法学硕士对我来说就是这样的感觉。

I can't tell you the number of people who are...

我无法告诉你有多少人...

At some point at a year or two, someone came to me, they're like, "I just built a prototype, product that would've taken me three months.

在一两年的某个时候，有人来找我，他们说，“我刚刚构建了一个原型，这个产品需要我花三个月的时间。

And I can believe it's going to start up." I was like, "How differentiated do you think that is?" Everybody can do that now.

我相信它将会启动。”我当时想，“你认为这有多大区别？”现在每个人都可以做到。

It changes the basis of competition.

它改变了竞争的基础。

I think today I see a lot of folks using LLMs, and LLMs are like a squishy computer.

我想今天我看到很多人使用法学硕士，而法学硕士就像一台柔软的计算机。

We're used to computers doing exactly what we told them to do, which is not necessarily what we meant.

我们习惯于计算机完全按照我们告诉它们的方式去做，但这不一定是我们的意思。

And only some people have learned the skill of programming, the arcane magical incantations to make computers do exactly what you meant.

只有一些人学会了编程技巧，以及让计算机完全按照你的意思做的神秘咒语。

Alex Komoroske: Now, LLMs can do all kinds of stuff.

Alex Komoroske：现在，法学硕士可以做各种各样的事情。

And they don't do exactly what you told them, but they do typically do roughly what you meant.

他们不会完全按照你告诉他们的方式去做，但他们通常会大致按照你的意思去做。

I see all these places where people will build products and they'll say 80% of the time, 90% percent of the time, it's great.

我看到所有这些地方，人们都会构建产品，他们会说 80%、90% 的时间，这太棒了。

5% of the time it punches the user in the face and they're like, "Oh, we're going to reduce the number of times it punches us in the face." It's like even if you get it down to 99% of the time, it's fine.

5% 的情况下，它会打用户的脸，他们会说，“哦，我们要减少它打我们脸的次数。”就好像即使你把它降到99%，也没关系。

If it punches in the face, that's not a viable product.

如果它打在脸上，那就不是一个可行的产品。

And so how do you design your products assuming that this thing will be squishy and not fully accurate and fully work?

那么，假设这个东西会很软并且不完全准确和完全工作，你如何设计你的产品呢？

Alex Komoroske: People use these things a lot as oracles.

Alex Komoroske：人们经常使用这些东西作为预言机。

"I'm going to have it.

“我要了。

I'm going to formulate the answer and it's going to be a fully fledged answer." And of course, strawberry has been really stabbed at.

我将给出答案，这将是一个成熟的答案。”当然，草莓确实被刺伤了。

Gotten a chance to play with it.

有机会也去玩一下。

They are getting better at some of these kinds of behaviors at great expense.

他们付出了巨大的代价，在某些行为方面取得了进步。

But in a lot of cases, I instead would rather say, "How can you take LLMs for granted?

但在很多情况下，我宁愿说：“你怎么能认为法学硕士是理所当然的呢？

How can you assume that you now have this magical duct tape?

你怎么能假设你现在拥有这种神奇的胶带呢？

Don't assume it's going to solve all your problems.

不要以为它会解决您所有的问题。

Don't assume it's going to do autonomously be able to give high quality results of every case.

不要假设它能够自主地为每个案例提供高质量的结果。

But what can you now build now that you have magical duct tape?"

但是既然你有了神奇的胶带，你现在可以建造什么呢？”

Lenny Rachitsky: You're a product manager for most of your career.

Lenny Rachitsky：您职业生涯的大部分时间都是产品经理。

Now, you're a founder.

现在，你是创始人了。

I'm curious what your advice would be to product managers and people building products in terms of what skills they should lean into, what you think is going to be matter most.

我很好奇你对产品经理和产品开发人员的建议是什么，他们应该掌握哪些技能，你认为什么是最重要的。

There's hard skills.

有硬技能。

There's soft skills.

有软技能。

There's getting more technical.

技术性越来越强了。

There's getting more product business-oriented.

产品越来越以业务为导向。

Just what do you think people should work on more and becomes more valuable and what do you think becomes less valuable from a product builder perspective?

从产品构建者的角度来看，您认为人们应该在哪些方面投入更多精力并变得更有价值，以及您认为哪些方面的价值会降低？

Alex Komoroske: I think in this early stage, we're in the community gardening phase, not the factory farming phase of this technology.

Alex Komoroske：我认为在这个早期阶段，我们处于社区园艺阶段，而不是该技术的工厂化农业阶段。

And so I think what people need most is curiosity and play.

所以我认为人们最需要的是好奇心和玩耍。

You should be playing with these things and trying out different things and seeing what weird things are possible now.

你应该玩这些东西，尝试不同的东西，看看现在可能发生什么奇怪的事情。

One of my favorite things, to be honest, right now, it's using AI is WebSim.

说实话，现在我最喜欢的事情之一就是使用 AI，那就是 WebSim。

WebSim is so weird.

WebSim 太奇怪了。

What a weird idea, like why?

多么奇怪的想法，为什么呢？

And then you play with it and you realize, "Oh, this is a thing that could only exist in a world where LLMs exist." And I think these kinds of odd, interesting, weird, provocative, generative things will be where a lot of the interesting patterns are found because right now we're so used to...

然后你玩了它，你意识到，“哦，这是一个只能存在于法学硕士存在的世界里的东西。”我认为这些奇怪的、有趣的、怪异的、挑衅性的、生成性的东西将会是很多有趣模式被发现的地方，因为现在我们已经习惯了……

If the playbook, if the cost structures have changed, the kinds of things are now possible, the playbook is wrong and we should throw it out or at least ignore it to some degree.

如果剧本发生了变化，如果成本结构发生了变化，那么现在的事情是可能的，那么剧本就是错误的，我们应该扔掉它，或者至少在某种程度上忽略它。

So it will feel like we are navigating through a whole new industry that it has in the past.

因此，我们会感觉我们正在经历一个与过去不同的全新行业。

Alex Komoroske: Anytime that an industry gets really, really, really, really, really good at like vertical SaaS, we know how to execute the crap out of that.

Alex Komoroske：每当一个行业变得非常非常擅长垂直 SaaS 时，我们就知道如何执行这些废话。

We know exactly what to do.

我们清楚地知道该怎么做。

It doesn't require that much.

它不需要那么多。

It requires consumption and execution velocity and all this.

它需要消耗和执行速度等等。

But vertical SaaS, I think, is not the right model of how you would attack a problem that is an AI native style problem.

但我认为，垂直 SaaS 并不是解决 AI 原生问题的正确模型。

And I think that those are where all the interesting things will be.

我认为所有有趣的事情都将发生在这些地方。

And again, I think a lot of the tactics that we're trying out at the beginning, they won't work.

再说一遍，我认为我们一开始尝试的很多策略都行不通。

It'll turn out that they only work 95% of the time, and 5% of the time they punch you in the face or something.

事实证明，他们只有 95% 的时间在工作，而 5% 的时间他们会打你的脸或者其他什么。

And that means that you have to be more adaptable and you have to assume that a scrappy thing will be more important.

这意味着你必须更具适应能力，并且你必须假设斗志旺盛的事情会更重要。

Alex Komoroske: One of the ways I put this is we've seen a vast reduction in the cost of distribution of information, and now we're seeing a reduction in the cost of information production.

Alex Komoroske：我的说法之一是，我们已经看到信息分发成本的大幅降低，现在我们也看到信息生产成本的降低。

And most of it is slop.

而且大部分都是渣滓。

And so in this cacophony, how do you stand out?

那么在这喧闹的环境中，你如何脱颖而出呢？

You stand out by having good taste.

你因品味高而脱颖而出。

I think taste is the most important thing.

我认为味道是最重要的。

You have a perspective that is different from the background noise, different from the average and that people find compelling.

你有一个不同于背景噪音、不同于平均水平并且人们认为引人注目的观点。

How do you find your own taste and how do you lean into that taste is, I think, much more important than just generically executing in the way that everybody else could do.

我认为，你如何找到自己的品味以及如何倾向于这种品味，比仅仅以其他人可以做的方式执行要重要得多。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's so many threads I want to follow here, but maybe on just this last one, when you say taste, what do you mean by that?

Lenny Rachitsky：我想在这里关注很多线索，但也许只有最后一个，当你说品味时，你的意思是什么？

What should people think when they're like, "Okay, I got to work in my taste"?

当人们说“好吧，我必须按照自己的口味工作”时，他们应该怎么想？

Alex Komoroske: Taste, one way of looking at this is differentiate from what the LLM would've written if given the same prompt.

Alex Komoroske：品味，看待这个问题的一种方法是与法学硕士在给出相同提示时会写的内容区分开来。

How different, how distinctive is what you have to say.

你要说的话是多么不同、多么独特。

And I think so much in large industry, in large organizations is about fitting into the role.

我认为在大行业、大组织中，最重要的是适应这个角色。

How can you be a better and more efficient cog in that particular kind of machine?

您如何才能成为该特定机器中更好、更高效的齿轮？

And I think in this new world, what you want to do is how can I become the best version of myself?

我想在这个新世界里，你想做的是我怎样才能成为最好的自己？

How can I lean into the things that I have an interesting perspective on that make me different?

我怎样才能专注于那些我有有趣观点的事情，这些事情让我与众不同？

Those are the kinds of things.

这些就是这样的事情。

And now of course, if you lean into something and you're doing something out there and nobody resonates with it, then it doesn't count.

当然，现在如果你专注于某件事并且你正在做某事而没有人产生共鸣，那么它就不算数。

Good taste is something that is individual and also compelling to others.

好的品味既是个人的，也是对其他人有吸引力的。

And so find what things you say that resonate with other people and lean into that.

因此，找到你所说的那些能引起其他人共鸣的事情，并投入其中。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

Back to the WebSim example, we're going to link to this, but definitely play with WebSim.

回到 WebSim 示例，我们将链接到此，但一定要使用 WebSim。

I was interviewing Dylan Field at Figma Config and this was his...

我正在 Figma Config 采访 Dylan Field，这是他的……

Asked him like, "What's the number one thing you think people are going to get more excited about in the future that you're playing with now?" Because he's really good at identifying things that are going to be bigger in the future, and that was his choice.

问他这样的问题：“你认为未来人们会比你现在玩的东西更兴奋的第一件事是什么？”因为他真的很擅长识别未来会变得更大的事情，而这就是他的选择。

And it's very hard to understand exactly what it is if you just go there.

如果你只是去那里，很难准确地理解它是什么。

But basically it's like you type a URL and it invents what that website is using just AI LLMs.

但基本上这就像你输入一个 URL，它只使用 AI LLM 就发明了该网站的内容。

Alex Komoroske: That's insane, as in.

Alex Komoroske：这太疯狂了，就像这样。

And you can get it to do, you realize as you play with it more, you can get it to do all kinds of specific things and you can steer it based on the way it uses the context of the last few pages.

你可以让它做一些事情，你会意识到，当你更多地使用它时，你可以让它做各种特定的事情，你可以根据它使用最后几页上下文的方式来引导它。

It creates a coherent world that's coherent with the things that you have recently seen, because you can steer it directly and you can watch fascinating people.

它创造了一个与你最近看到的事物相一致的连贯世界，因为你可以直接操纵它，你可以看到迷人的人。

They'll cover all kinds of wacky little techniques to get to generate, like generate a game for your kid that's on a specific type.

他们将涵盖各种古怪的小技术来生成，例如为您的孩子生成特定类型的游戏。

You can do all kinds of stuff.

你可以做各种各样的事情。

And I'm not saying necessarily WebSim to me is a disruptive thing.

我并不是说 WebSim 对我来说一定是一个颠覆性的东西。

Things that look alien and weird and yet are compelling, those are what we should be paying more attention to as opposed to take an existing playbook and slap something on it.

那些看起来陌生、奇怪但又引人注目的东西，这些才是我们应该更加关注的，而不是照搬现有的剧本并在上面强加一些东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

Another point that I saw you make about AI and the way it's different from other things we've done is most of the tools that we adopt in the workplace are collaborative where it helps your team be better, helps you collaborate better, and AI is the opposite.

我看到你对人工智能的看法以及它与我们所做的其他事情的不同之处在于，我们在工作场所采用的大多数工具都是协作性的，它可以帮助你的团队变得更好，帮助你更好地协作，而人工智能则相反。

It makes you individually better.

它使你个人变得更好。

Can you talk about that insight?

您能谈谈这个见解吗？

Alex Komoroske: 100%.

亚历克斯·科莫罗斯克：100%。

I think this is one of the reasons is that the question right now of, okay, everyone's talking about AI and yet nobody's doing...

我认为原因之一是，现在的问题是，好吧，每个人都在谈论人工智能，但没有人在做......

There's no interesting breakout success obviously other than OpenAI and Anthropic obviously.

除了 OpenAI 和 Anthropic 之外，显然没有任何有趣的突破性成功。

So is there any value being created?

那么有没有创造任何价值呢？

I think it's entirely possible.

我认为这是完全有可能的。

And Ethan Malik who's a good friend, who has an amazing blog who's absolutely worth reading, has pointed out, too, that this is a thing that make individuals better in a way they might not want to tell their manager about.

伊森·马利克（Ethan Malik）是我的好朋友，他有一个令人惊叹的博客，绝对值得一读，他也指出，这是一件让个人变得更好的事情，但他们可能不想告诉他们的经理。

I can now do my job twice as fast.

我现在可以以两倍的速度完成工作。

And if the organization sees that, they might go, "Wait a second.

如果组织看到这一点，他们可能会说：“等一下。

We should pay you half this much." They're like, "What if we get rid of some extra people or something?"

我们应该付给你一半的钱。”他们会说，“如果我们裁掉一些多余的人或者其他什么东西怎么办？”

Alex Komoroske: And so if this stuff is magical duct tape, it's very hard to make scaled, repeatable, large scale things out of it.

Alex Komoroske：如果这个东西是神奇的胶带，那么就很难用它来制作可缩放的、可重复的、大规模的东西。

It's very easy to do rig the shit out of anything.

把任何东西都搞砸是很容易的。

And so you'll see it being used in the small in a way that's almost entirely below the level of awareness of the seeing at the organization.

因此，您会发现它在小范围内的使用方式几乎完全低于组织的观察意识水平。

The organization almost won't see it or sense it, and yet it could be adding significant value or just being used quite heavily.

组织几乎不会看到它或感觉到它，但它可能会增加显着的价值或只是被大量使用。

And I think this is one of the things that makes it if everything is happening in the long tail of usage, then you could conclude, "Oh, it's not being used for anything in the industry," but it's being used all over the place.

我认为这是造成这一现象的原因之一，如果一切都发生在使用的长尾中，那么你可以得出结论，“哦，它没有被用于行业中的任何东西”，但它正在被到处使用。

I talked to Claude 20 times a day.

我每天和克劳德聊20次。

I just have long conversations with it.

我只是和它进行了长时间的对话。

I have tons of projects loaded up with all kinds of contexts on different topics, and I literally could not do the job I do now without having a conversation partner like Claude.

我有大量的项目，其中充满了不同主题的各种背景，如果没有像克劳德这样的对话伙伴，我实际上无法完成现在所做的工作。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let me follow that thread real quick because a lot of people are like, "Okay," people keep telling me, "Play with AI.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我快速跟进这个话题，因为很多人都说，“好吧，”人们一直告诉我，“玩人工智能。

Use ChatGPT." Sometimes it's hard to see exactly what they can do with it.

使用 ChatGPT。”有时很难确切地看出他们能用它做什么。

Can you give one example of how you found it really helpful or how you use Claude or another tool in your day-to-day?

您能否举一个例子来说明您如何发现它真正有用，或者您如何在日常中使用 Claude 或其他工具？

Alex Komoroske: I use it to think through problems.

Alex Komoroske：我用它来思考问题。

And so like when I'm trying to name a concept or get a handle on a few different ways of looking at something, just saying, "Here's what's in my brain about this topic right now.

就像当我试图命名一个概念或掌握看待某事的几种不同方式时，只需说：“这就是我现在关于这个话题的想法。

Here's some relevant context." I have a number of projects that just stuff as much of the Bits and Bobs into the context as I can, which is very helpful.

这是一些相关的背景。”我有许多项目，只是将尽可能多的细节放入上下文中，这非常有帮助。

And I just say, "Just play with it.

我只是说：“就玩吧。

Just give me 10 examples of that thing," or then, "Critique these ones," or, "It feels like this one's the best one for me.

只要给我 10 个关于那件事的例子，”或者，“批评这些例子”，或者，“感觉这个对我来说是最好的。

What works about this?

这有什么作用呢？

Why is this one the best?" Or, "I want to work at an angle now that has something about know Helen Nissenbaum's concept of contextual integrity.

为什么这个是最好的？”或者，“我现在想从一个了解海伦·尼森鲍姆的语境完整性概念的角度开始工作。

How would I layer that in?" It's just think of it as having a extremely well-read but slightly naive friend who is will never make you feel dumb and is willing to engage you in any particular topic you want to go down.

我该如何将其分层？”你可以把它想象成有一个博览群书但有点天真的朋友，他永远不会让你觉得自己很愚蠢，并且愿意让你参与你想要讨论的任何特定主题。

Alex Komoroske: So when you talk to an expert like a lawyer or a doctor or something, you know that that time is extremely valuable.

Alex Komoroske：因此，当您与律师或医生等专家交谈时，您知道那段时间非常宝贵。

You have a very small slice of time, and so there's tons of questions you don't even bother to ask.

你的时间很短，所以有很多问题你甚至懒得问。

"That's a dumb question.

“这是一个愚蠢的问题。

I'm not going to spend $1,000 to answer that question." Whereas if you can have that conversation, now this is not saying use it for legal advice, but it can allow you to explore through a problem domain and then later check it with experts and say, "I believe this is a coherent outcome or a thing that should happen." And they can go, "Oh yeah, that works." So I use LLMs to help me.

我不会花 1,000 美元来回答这个问题。”然而，如果您可以进行这样的对话，那么这并不是说将其用作法律建议，而是可以让您探索问题领域，然后与专家核实并说：“我相信这是一个连贯的结果或应该发生的事情。”他们可以说：“哦，是的，这有效。”所以我使用法学硕士来帮助我。

It's like getting a, it's like an electric bike for idea spaces.

这就像获得一辆电动自行车，用于创意空间。

You can just cover so much more ground so much more quickly in them.

您可以更快地覆盖更多领域。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that metaphor because it builds on Steve Jobs's that computers are a bicycle for the mind.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个比喻，因为它建立在史蒂夫·乔布斯的“计算机是思维自行车”的基础上。

And that's really a beautiful way of thinking about it, that LLMs are like the electric bicycle for the mind.

这确实是一种美妙的思考方式，法学硕士就像心灵的电动自行车。

Alex Komoroske: I don't think if that's someone else's, the...

Alex Komoroske：我不认为如果那是别人的，...

Alex Komoroske: I don't know where it came from.

Alex Komoroske：我不知道它来自哪里。

Part of my job is a collector of ideas, and so I try to put myself in the most interesting information streams with interesting people that I've found to have taste, have a perspective on something.

我工作的一部分是收集想法，所以我尝试让自己置身于最有趣的信息流中，与我发现有品味、对某件事有看法的有趣的人一起。

Maybe I disagree with it, but they definitely have a coherent idea.

也许我不同意，但他们肯定有一个连贯的想法。

And then I just allow myself to like, "Oh, that's a really good idea and let me build on that or let me..." I don't even know where that particular one came, but I'm 95% sure that somebody else said that.

然后我就让自己喜欢，“哦，这真是个好主意，让我在此基础上继续发展，或者让我……”我什至不知道那个特定的想法来自哪里，但我 95％ 确定其他人这么说过。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to get to this idea of gardening versus building that is central to a lot of the way you think about it.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想谈谈园艺与建筑的概念，这是你思考这个问题的很多方式的核心。

But before we get there, I want to touch on another bit and bob that I love that you come back to occasionally, which is this idea of organizational kayfabe.

但在我们到达那里之前，我想谈谈我喜欢你偶尔回来的另一件事，这就是组织 kayfabe 的想法。

Talk about what this idea of kayfabe is on its own and then how this applies to organizations in your experience.

谈谈 kayfabe 的想法本身是什么，然后根据您的经验将其应用到组织中。

Alex Komoroske: One thing I should flag before I dive into any this stuff, sometimes when people hear me talk about how organizations work and systems, they think I'm being cynical.

Alex Komoroske：在深入研究这些东西之前，我应该标记一件事，有时当人们听到我谈论组织如何运作和系统时，他们认为我很愤世嫉俗。

And I want to be very clear, I'm hyper-optimistic and I also believe that one of the moral precepts is how do you maximize the agency of real humans as ends in and of themselves?

我想非常明确地说，我非常乐观，而且我也相信道德戒律之一是如何最大限度地发挥真实人类的作用，作为其自身的目的？

And so sometimes when I get excited about this, people go, "Wow, that is so cynical." No, I'm just trying to describe the system as it actually exists.

所以有时当我对此感到兴奋时，人们会说，“哇，这太愤世嫉俗了。”不，我只是想描述这个系统实际存在的情况。

Once we know how it exists, we can figure out how to make it do great things and how we as members of this system can tweak and nudge it.

一旦我们知道它是如何存在的，我们就能弄清楚如何让它做伟大的事情，以及我们作为这个系统的成员如何调整和推动它。

Alex Komoroske: So I just want to flag that before I dive into this.

Alex Komoroske：所以我想在深入讨论之前指出这一点。

I have this slime mold deck which has gotten a ton of traction over the years, and part of the reason for that is because it feels like people tell me it feels like they think they're crazy and it feels like giving a big hug saying, "You are not crazy.

我有一套粘菌套牌，多年来受到了很大的关注，部分原因是因为人们告诉我，他们认为自己疯了，感觉就像给了一个大大的拥抱说：“你没有疯。

Here's why this thing shows up." And once you acknowledge it, it feels like a bummer to acknowledge it, but once you do, now there's all kinds of options that pop up.

这就是这个东西出现的原因。”一旦你承认了这一点，感觉就像是一个无赖，但一旦你承认了，现在就会出现各种各样的选择。

"Oh, given that this thing is way more expensive than it looks, I can now do this instead.

“哦，鉴于这东西比看起来贵得多，我现在可以这样做了。

That one's 10 times cheaper.

那个便宜10倍。

These two options, this one is way cheaper, way more likely to succeed." So once you see these forces, you see them more clearly.

这两种选择中，这一种更便宜，也更有可能成功。”所以一旦你看到这些力量，你就会更清楚地看到它们。

Alex Komoroske: So kayfabe is I think a lens that's useful to understand how organizations actually work.

Alex Komoroske：我认为 kayfabe 是一个有助于了解组织实际运作方式的镜头。

Kayfabe is a word that comes, I believe is a carny word that is used and applied to professional wrestling and it means a thing that everybody knows is fake and yet everybody acts like is real.

Kayfabe 是一个出现的词，我相信这是一个用于职业摔跤的粗俗词，它意味着每个人都知道是假的，但每个人都表现得像真的一样。

And I think it's one of the defining forces within an organization, any organization.

我认为它是一个组织（任何组织）内的决定性力量之一。

So kayfabe in the small is optimism, enthusiasm.

所以kayfabe从小到大就是乐观、热情。

When someone says, "We're going to do this thing," you say, "Yeah, we're going to do that," even if I think this isn't going to work.

当有人说“我们要做这件事”时，你会说“是的，我们要做那件事”，即使我认为这行不通。

If you say, "I don't think this think is going to work," everyone loses hope and it definitely doesn't work.

如果你说，“我认为这个想法行不通”，每个人都会失去希望，而且它肯定行不通。

So having a little bit of this is extremely valuable.

因此，拥有一点这一点是非常有价值的。

It's the lubricant that allows organizations to believe they can do something and to attempt to do it.

它是让组织相信他们可以做某事并尝试去做的润滑剂。

Alex Komoroske: The problem that you get is as organizations get larger, imagine you are five levels down or something and you have this project you're working on and you're trying to give a status update to be rolled up to leadership.

Alex Komoroske：您遇到的问题是，随着组织变得越来越大，想象一下您的级别下降了五个级别或其他级别，并且您正在处理这个项目，并且您正在尝试提供状态更新以汇总到领导层。

And it's currently a yellow, and your manager asks it and you know it's not going to be presented to leadership and enrolled up until next week.

目前它是黄色的，你的经理要求它，你知道它要到下周才会提交给领导层并注册。

"It's yellow, but I've got my arms around the problem.

“它是黄色的，但我已经解决了这个问题。

I know how to fix it.

我知道如何解决它。

I'm going to go talk to Sarah.

我要去和莎拉谈谈。

I think we have a solution.

我想我们有一个解决方案。

By the time this is reported up the chain, it's going to be green." So if I make it yellow, there's a non-trivial chance that someone's going to swoop down and say, "Well, what's going on?

当这一情况被报告到链条上时，它就会变成绿色的。”因此，如果我将其设为黄色，那么很有可能有人会俯冲下来并说：“嗯，发生了什么事？

We have a review," and it will be way harder to fix, so I'm just going to...

我们进行了审查，”并且修复起来会更加困难，所以我要......

A little white lie.

一个善意的小谎言。

Alex Komoroske: This is a totally reasonable thing to do.

Alex Komoroske：这是一件完全合理的事情。

It's a self-defensive thing to do.

这是一种自卫行为。

And it's probably the right thing for the organization too.

对于该组织来说，这可能也是正确的事情。

The problem is this happens up multiple layers and it compounds.

问题是这种情况发生在多个层面上并且会复合。

So then your layer above you does the same, and the same, and the same, and levels up you can be many orders of magnitude off of the ground truth.

因此，你上面的层会做同样的事情，同样的事情，同样的事情，并且你的水平可能会偏离地面事实许多数量级。

And so the kayfabe, the thing that everyone pretends to believe is true, is obviously incorrect.

因此，kayfabe，每个人都假装相信的事情，显然是错误的。

And the dangerous part about this is it can lead you to make very bad decisions.

这样做的危险之处在于它可能会导致你做出非常错误的决定。

And if you as someone who sees this can see that wait a second, the official strategy is definitely not going to work, you're like, "I got to tell somebody.

如果你作为看到这一点的人可以看到，等一下，官方策略肯定不会起作用，你会说，“我必须告诉别人。

We're doing work that's going in a bad direction.

我们正在做的工作正朝着不好的方向发展。

It's not going to work." And you go and say, "I think that it's actually not going to work for these reasons."

这是行不通的。”然后你说：“我认为由于这些原因它实际上行不通。”

Alex Komoroske: And what someone will say to you, this happens by the way, I'm not substituting any particular organization, this happens literally in all organizations to some degree, is the senior person will say, "Alex, I agree with you.

Alex Komoroske：有人会对你说，顺便说一下，这种情况发生了，我不会取代任何特定的组织，这种情况在某种程度上确实发生在所有组织中，高级人士会说，“亚历克斯，我同意你的观点。

It's not perfect, but if you hit the ground truth button, if you share that and everybody, the whole thing will shatter and we can't do anything.

它并不完美，但如果你按下了真相按钮，如果你和每个人分享，整个事情就会崩溃，我们无能为力。

And so help me fix it.

所以帮我解决它。

Don't say the ground truth.

不要说基本事实。

Just help nudge it and fix it." That's a good point.

只需帮助推动它并修复它即可。”这是一个很好的观点。

Okay, so you help working on it and then you realize a month later, wait a second, it's getting worse.

好吧，所以你帮忙解决这个问题，然后一个月后你意识到，等一下，情况变得更糟了。

We're doing things that's not good for the company.

我们正在做对公司不利的事情。

It's not creating user value.

它没有创造用户价值。

It's not good for the employees.

这对员工来说并不是好事。

They're burning out.

他们快要筋疲力尽了。

It's just not good for anybody and it's getting worse.

这对任何人都没有好处，而且还会变得更糟。

And so if you think you're going to go and hit the ground truth button, before you do, you'll be flying tackled to the ground by somebody and stabbed in the dark because you will destroy everything.

因此，如果你认为你要按下地面真相按钮，那么在你这样做之前，你就会被某人扑倒在地，并在黑暗中被刺伤，因为你会摧毁一切。

Alex Komoroske: And so it becomes correct to hold onto this idea of if you acknowledge the kayfabe is false, then you are in danger of getting knocked out of the game.

Alex Komoroske：因此，坚持这样的想法是正确的：如果你承认 kayfabe 是错误的，那么你就有被淘汰出局的危险。

And so how do you do good things despite the fact that you're pulled in two different directions?

那么，尽管你被拉向两个不同的方向，你如何做好事呢？

And this increasingly in the limit, it can be good to a point where the easiest way is if I do, if I hold on this idea, we might create significant value for the company.

这种情况越来越有限，如果我这样做，最简单的方法就是，如果我坚持这个想法，我们可能会为公司创造巨大的价值。

If I let go of this idea, I die.

如果我放弃这个想法，我就会死。

So the easiest way to maintain this split-brain thing is to just turn this part off and just earnestly believe the kayfabe.

因此，维持这种裂脑现象的最简单方法就是关闭这部分并真诚地相信 kayfabe。

This has been organizations become zombies, and anyone individually you talk to behind the scenes will agree yes, it could not possibly work.

这使得组织变成了僵尸，任何与你在幕后交谈过的人都会同意，是的，这是行不通的。

That turns out that these things work this way, and yet the entire organization lumbers on.

事实证明，事情就是这样运作的，但整个组织却步履维艰。

Alex Komoroske: And this is a death state for large organizations.

Alex Komoroske：对于大型组织来说，这是一种死亡状态。

It happens all over the place in any number of different conditions, and this is one of the reasons it shows up.

它在各种不同的条件下到处都会发生，这就是它出现的原因之一。

And I think acknowledging that is an important way to help navigate and still make good grounded things happen.

我认为承认这一点是帮助导航并仍然使良好的基础事情发生的重要方法。

How can you allow disconfirming evidence to show up that doesn't kill you, that helps make you stronger?

你怎么能允许反驳证据的出现，而这些证据不会杀死你，反而会让你变得更坚强？

And if it all has to come in one massive moment that could ruin everything, then you aren't going to hear it.

如果这一切必须发生在一个可能毁掉一切的重大时刻，那么你就不会听到它。

And then it will build up and build up and build up and build up into a super critical state that could shatter.

然后它会不断积累，不断积累，不断积累，直至进入可能破碎的超临界状态。

Lenny Rachitsky: I was just listening to a couple podcasts, and a thread that came up in a number of them is some of the most successful leaders, their instruction to their reports is, "As soon as there's bad news, I need to know as soon as possible.

Lenny Rachitsky：我刚刚听了几个播客，其中一些出现的主题是一些最成功的领导者，他们对报告的指示是，“一旦有坏消息，我需要尽快知道。

Do not shield me.

别屏蔽我。

I just want to know all the bad news as soon as possible." Feels like that's one solution to what you're describing.

我只是想尽快知道所有坏消息。”感觉这就是您所描述的问题的一种解决方案。

Alex Komoroske: Disconfirming evidence hurts, and so you won't realize it because it hurts at any given moment.

Alex Komoroske：否定证据会带来伤害，所以你不会意识到这一点，因为它在任何特定时刻都会带来伤害。

It's like, "Ugh, it's a distraction.

就像是，“呃，这是一种干扰。

We're just trying to get this thing done." And so it comes from a good place to not get it, but if you're busy, that's one of the reason you need to take a step back.

我们只是想把这件事完成。”所以它来自一个不得到它的好地方，但如果你很忙，这就是你需要退后一步的原因之一。

We take a step back, you're a little bit calmer.

我们退一步，你稍微平静一些。

You can absorb this as confirming evidence.

您可以将此作为确认证据。

It doesn't feel like an existential threat.

感觉不像是存在的威胁。

It's really easy to get surrounded.

真的很容易被包围。

If you are very powerful, you will find all the confirming evidence you need.

如果你很强大，你就会找到你需要的所有证实证据。

And if it doesn't exist, it will be created for you without your knowledge.

如果它不存在，它将在您不知情的情况下为您创建。

Alex Komoroske: And so this is one of the reasons that large companies are radically different than smaller companies.

Alex Komoroske：这就是大公司与小公司截然不同的原因之一。

And one of the traps that you can get into of not realizing this dynamic is happening, and you can make very bad decisions if you don't understand that it's inherently what's happening because they're all, "Oh, we'll have some bad actors." No, no, no. If people don't play this game, this game is emergent.

如果你没有意识到这种动态正在发生，你可能会陷入陷阱之一，如果你不明白这本质上正在发生的事情，你可能会做出非常糟糕的决定，因为他们都是，“哦，我们会有一些坏演员。”不，不，不。如果人们不玩这个游戏，这个游戏就会出现。

It shows up even though everybody hates it.

尽管每个人都讨厌它，但它还是出现了。

And if you don't play the game, you are knocked out of the game.

如果你不玩游戏，你就会被淘汰出局。

The underlying dynamic that must be true in any organization on a fundamental basis is you can't make your boss look dumb because if you do, they're the person who decides, "Oh, this person's not performing," or whatever.

从根本上来说，在任何组织中都必须存在的潜在动力是，你不能让你的老板看起来很愚蠢，因为如果你这样做，他们就是决定“哦，这个人没有表现”或其他什么的人。

And that one little asymmetry, that one little fact, in most cases it does not matter.

一点点的不对称，一点点的事实，在大多数情况下都无关紧要。

That one little asymmetry is what leads to the systemic compounding thing where you get these really weird dysfunctional emergent things that everybody hates, nobody wants, and yet nobody is in the position to change per se.

一点点的不对称就会导致系统性的复合事件，你会得到这些非常奇怪的、功能失调的紧急事件，每个人都讨厌，没有人想要，但没有人能够改变本身。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love your caveat at the beginning that continues to resonate in my head as you say this.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你一开始的警告，当你这么说时，它继续在我的脑海中产生共鸣。

You're not cynical about, "This sucks." It's more, "Here's what I'm observing.

你不会愤世嫉俗地说“这太糟糕了”。更重要的是，“这就是我所观察到的。

We need to think about ways to get around this."

我们需要考虑如何解决这个问题。”

Alex Komoroske: Yeah.

亚历克斯·科莫罗斯克：是的。

Because I think so much pain and misery is caused by us being not acknowledging these fundamental, inescapable things.

因为我认为如此多的痛苦和痛苦是由于我们不承认这些基本的、不可避免的事情造成的。

It's almost impossible.

这几乎是不可能的。

Entropy is one of those things.

熵就是其中之一。

Entropy emerges because there's more ways to go away from a point than towards a point.

熵的出现是因为远离某个点的方式比朝向某个点的方式更多。

It fundamentally must be true in really any universe you can possibly imagine.

从根本上来说，在你能想象到的任何宇宙中，这都一定是正确的。

And so if you're going to fight entropy, you're going to lose at a certain point.

因此，如果你要对抗熵，你就会在某个时刻失败。

It's like if you are aware of these things, you can find subsets of ideas that do work despite these challenges.

就好像如果你意识到这些事情，你就可以找到尽管面临这些挑战但仍然有效的想法子集。

And that's some of the stuff, the tactics I advise are often things that look playful.

这就是一些东西，我建议的策略通常是看起来很有趣的东西。

They look unserious.

他们看起来不严肃。

They look like, "Oh, you're saying you don't know the answer?" No, I'm admitting I don't know the answer.

他们看起来就像是，“哦，你是说你不知道答案？”不，我承认我不知道答案。

Alex Komoroske: And I'm saying it doesn't matter if I don't know the answer because this thing, this very small seed I am planting is so cheap that yes, I can't tell you for sure this will work, but I could tell you there is a chance that it'll work.

Alex Komoroske：我是说，如果我不知道答案也没关系，因为我种下的这颗非常小的种子是如此便宜，是的，我不能肯定地告诉你这会起作用，但我可以告诉你它有机会起作用。

And the downside of this is basically the opportunity cost of planting the seed in this one moment, and the person who's planting it enjoys planting it so that an opportunity cost really isn't that much because they get energy from doing it.

这样做的缺点基本上是在这一时刻播种的机会成本，而播种的人喜欢播种，因此机会成本实际上并没有那么高，因为他们从这样做中获得了能量。

So who cares?

那么谁在乎呢？

Plant a bunch of these suckers.

种植一堆这样的吸盘。

If one of these grows into an oak tree, that's great.

如果其中一棵长成一棵橡树，那就太好了。

Don't try to analyze beforehand which seed is going to turn into an oak tree.

不要试图事先分析哪颗种子会变成一棵橡树。

If it's super simple to plant the seeds, then plant the seeds.

如果播种非常简单，那就播种吧。

And if it starts growing, then keep watering it.

如果它开始生长，就继续浇水。

That's it.

就是这样。

That's the thing.

就是这样。

Alex Komoroske: And people sometimes will see this as like, I've been called in my list before because they said, "Well, you're saying that you don't know the answer to the thing." It's like no, I'm saying I don't have to know the answer to the thing.

Alex Komoroske：人们有时会认为，我以前曾被列入我的名单，因为他们说，“好吧，你是说你不知道这件事的答案。”就像不，我是说我不必知道这件事的答案。

If on a systemic basis I let these ideas and then you respond to the ones that are working that are viable, it doesn't really matter if you didn't know ahead of time which ones were going to work.

如果在系统的基础上，我让这些想法，然后你对那些可行的、可行的想法做出回应，那么如果你事先不知道哪些想法会起作用，那并不重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's a great segue to talking about this core idea that again informs a lot of the way you think, which is this idea of building versus gardening, the magic of acorns.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的话题，可以继续谈论这个核心思想，它再次告诉了你很多思考方式，这就是建筑与园艺的思想，橡子的魔力。

Talk about this general idea and then I want to follow some threads.

谈论这个总体想法，然后我想遵循一些线索。

Alex Komoroske: So much of the way that we tackle problems and build products is this builder mindset.

Alex Komoroske：我们解决问题和构建产品的大部分方式都是这种构建者心态。

It's like, "I have a plan, I then manipulate things to match my plan and make it happen." And this is a way you can create tons of value.

就像，“我有一个计划，然后我操纵事情来符合我的计划并使其实现。”这是一种可以创造大量价值的方式。

Part of the problem though is it can't possibly create more value than the effort that you put into it.

但问题的一部分是它不可能创造比你投入的努力更多的价值。

And so what I look for instead are things that can be gardened, things that can grow on their own and that you can direct or maybe give a little bit of extra energy to or curate over, and is a totally different mindset for it.

因此，我寻找的是可以种植的东西，可以自行生长的东西，你可以指导或者可能给予一点额外的能量或策划的东西，并且是一种完全不同的心态。

So it's like a lead by gardening vibe.

所以这就像园艺氛围的引导。

I don't try to pick the things in the system.

我不会尝试选择系统中的东西。

I try to work with what I've actually got and I try to lean in on the ones that turn, I think are going in the direction that I believe is valuable based on constantly seeking disconfirming evidence.

我尝试利用我实际拥有的东西，并尝试依靠那些能够转变的东西，我认为基于不断寻找反驳证据，我认为这些方向正在朝着我认为有价值的方向发展。

Alex Komoroske: And if you do this properly, it looks like magic.

Alex Komoroske：如果你做得正确，它看起来就像魔术一样。

It looks like a thing.

看起来像一个东西。

It looks like getting lucky because what you're doing is you're farming for miracles.

这看起来像是很幸运，因为你所做的就是为了创造奇迹而耕种。

And so on a systemic basis, I can't tell you which of these things will work, but I can tell you there's a very high likelihood that one of these will work in a way that is interesting and transformative.

因此，从系统的角度来看，我无法告诉你其中哪一个会起作用，但我可以告诉你，其中一个很可能会以一种有趣且具有变革性的方式发挥作用。

And so if you're looking and finding these seeds that have the compounding potential of if they work, they would start working at an accelerating rate, then you don't have to know ahead of time.

因此，如果您正在寻找并发现这些种子具有复利潜力，如果它们起作用，它们就会开始加速起作用，那么您不必提前知道。

To me this is, I've been told that this is completely against all the advice that people get building products nowadays, but I think it's a very powerful approach that works in a lot of different contexts.

对我来说，有人告诉我，这完全违背了人们现在构建产品的所有建议，但我认为这是一种非常强大的方法，可以在许多不同的环境中发挥作用。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there an example that you can give from either from something you worked on or something someone worked on that came or true miss?

Lenny Rachitsky：您可以从您所做的事情或某人所做的事情中举出一个例子吗？

Because I think people hearing this might be like, "But I got to ship stuff.

因为我认为人们听到这句话可能会说，“但我必须运送东西。

I got to hit some goals.

我必须实现一些目标。

I don't have time to sit around and garden and plant seeds.

我没有时间闲坐着园艺和播种。

I got to actually build."

我必须真正建造。”

Alex Komoroske: If there's an ecosystem approach, if there's something that if it works, it'll be self-accelerating.

Alex Komoroske：如果有一种生态系统方法，如果有什么东西有效的话，它就会自我加速。

So okay, what you're going to do this thing, we aren't entirely sure what's going to work, but if a developer writes a thing and somebody uses it, it'll attract more developers, more users, and then this would grow on its own.

好吧，你要做什么，我们并不完全确定什么会起作用，但如果开发人员编写了一个东西并且有人使用它，它将吸引更多的开发人员、更多的用户，然后它会自行增长。

Then and it's cheap to do the little example of the thing.

然后做这个小例子就很便宜了。

It's cheap to build a little open source, tinker the little thing and just put it there.

构建一个小型开源项目、修补一些小东西然后将其放在那里是很便宜的。

And if nobody uses it, it's fine.

如果没有人使用它，那也没关系。

It was fun to build.

建造起来很有趣。

It took you three hours.

你花了三个小时。

It's fine.

没关系。

If someone does use it, then you just invest in incremental bit of unit each time that you find a signal that somebody is finding it useful and then you stop if you ever cease getting that information.

如果有人确实使用它，那么每次你发现有人发现它有用的信号时，你只需投资增量单位，然后如果你停止获取该信息，你就会停止。

Alex Komoroske: So I would use this.

Alex Komoroske：所以我会用这个。

Anything that is shaped like an ecosystem that has some kind of network effect, and many things have network effects, have some kind of compounding loop.

任何形状像生态系统的东西都具有某种网络效应，并且许多东西都具有网络效应，并且具有某种复合循环。

Compounding loops are not rare.

复合循环并不罕见。

They are, "Look." It's like truffle hunting.

他们是，“看”。这就像寻找松露。

You have to know what you're looking for and find the dynamics of a thing that if it worked would work at an accelerating rate.

你必须知道你在寻找什么，并找到事物的动态，如果它有效，就会加速工作。

Lots and lots and lots of things intrinsically have this shape.

很多很多东西本质上都具有这种形状。

Anything with a network effect, anything where the power goes up with a number of users, but it shows up in all kinds of problems that we don't normally apply it to.

任何具有网络效应的东西，任何随着大量用户的力量而增加的东西，但它会出现在我们通常不应用它的各种问题中。

Lenny Rachitsky: Along the same lines, you also advise people to think more emergence-oriented versus top-down, kind of what you were just saying.

Lenny Rachitsky：同样，您还建议人们更多地以涌现为导向来思考，而不是自上而下，就像您刚才所说的那样。

But I think that's another really interesting way of thinking about the same idea, create opportunities for emergence, bottom-up versus top-down control.

但我认为这是思考同一想法的另一种非常有趣的方式，为涌现、自下而上与自上而下的控制创造机会。

You just chat about that.

你们就聊聊这个吧。

Alex Komoroske: 100%.

亚历克斯·科莫罗斯克：100%。

I think the emergence is one of the most powerful forces if you know how to marshal it and you know how to work with it.

我认为，如果你知道如何驾驭它并且知道如何利用它，那么它就是最强大的力量之一。

And the only thing that's hard about it in my opinion is you're going to look like you aren't very serious.

在我看来，唯一困难的是你会看起来不太认真。

You're going to look like a weirdo.

你会看起来像个怪人。

You're going to look like a cook.

你会看起来像个厨师。

And one of the downsides, if you're working on something and you're doing the normal top-down approach where you make the plan, you execute the plan, even if the plan turns out to not be useful, you produce a thing and nothing interesting happens, no one can say you didn't work hard.

缺点之一是，如果你正在做某件事并且你正在做正常的自上而下的方法，你制定计划，你执行计划，即使计划结果没有用，你生产了一件东西，但没有任何有趣的事情发生，没有人可以说你没有努力工作。

But if you try doing this designing for emergence and something amazing happens, even once it happens, people go, "Ah, it's luck.

但是，如果你尝试为出现而进行这种设计，并且发生了一些令人惊奇的事情，即使它发生了，人们也会说，“啊，这是运气。

Where was the miraculous moment, the heroic moment where you made that happen?

你实现这一切的奇迹时刻、英雄时刻在哪里？

So therefore you had nothing to do with it."

所以你与这件事没有任何关系。”

Alex Komoroske: And this was the biggest unlock in my career actually was when I stopped my guts.

Alex Komoroske：这是我职业生涯中最大的解锁，实际上是当我停止胆量时。

I was promoted to director at Google.

我被提升为谷歌的总监。

I was like, "Cool, I never want to be promoted inside of a large organization ever again." And the freedom to now do the highest impact work, even if I can't make it legible to the organization, was so powerful and I was able to 10X my impact for the organization because I didn't have to worry about making it measurable specifically in a way that would show individual work effort.

我当时想，“酷，我再也不想在大型组织内部晋升了。”现在，即使我无法让组织清楚地了解它，我也能自由地从事最具影响力的工作，这种自由是如此强大，我能够将我对组织的影响提高 10 倍，因为我不必担心以显示个人工作努力的方式具体衡量它。

And I think that's the hardest part.

我认为这是最难的部分。

And you have to have, typically what I would advise for PMs, my approach at Google was 70% of my effort and my team's effort should go on things that everybody acknowledges are important and useful and create value.

你必须拥有，通常是我对产品经理的建议，我在谷歌的方法是我70%的努力，我的团队的努力应该集中在每个人都承认重要、有用并创造价值的事情上。

Maybe it's boring, linear value, but some kind of value.

也许它是无聊的、线性的值，但却是某种价值。

You're trying to minimize the chance that any other person in a company will say, "What does that team do anyway?"

你要尽量减少公司中其他人问“这个团队到底是做什么的？”的可能性。

Alex Komoroske: This, if someone says this about your team, your team is on the verge of death.

Alex Komoroske：这个，如果有人这么说你的团队，你的团队就处于死亡的边缘。

And so you're trying to minimize the chance that anybody wants to say that or thinks that it's appropriate to say that by clearly and unambiguously adding value.

因此，你试图通过明确无误地增加价值来尽量减少任何人想要这么说或认为应该这么说的机会。

You're not saying this is the best team in the entire world, but clearly they're doing something useful.

你并不是说这是全世界最好的团队，但显然他们正在做一些有用的事情。

They're executing well.

他们执行得很好。

They're working hard.

他们正在努力工作。

And of course that team should exist.

当然，这个团队应该存在。

Think about it, of course they should.

想一想，当然应该。

But now once you do this, you have 30% of your extra time that you can plant all these seeds.

但现在一旦你这样做了，你就有 30% 的额外时间来种植所有这些种子。

Alex Komoroske: You can find interesting little things where maybe a junior PM on the team has an idea you think it's kind of silly, but they're really into it.

Alex Komoroske：你可以发现一些有趣的小事情，也许团队中的初级 PM 有一个你认为有点愚蠢的想法，但他们真的很喜欢它。

And the there is this thing, it could work out great actually.

有了这个东西，它实际上可以发挥很大的作用。

If you tweak it like this, there is a potential.

如果你像这样调整它，就有潜力。

I could see how that could work.

我知道这是如何运作的。

If that PM is going to work on that anyway, they want to do it anyway.

如果那位 PM 无论如何都会致力于解决这个问题，那么他们无论如何都想这样做。

Instead of saying, "No, no, no, we don't have time for that.

而不是说：“不，不，不，我们没有时间。

Be a little bit more productive over here," say, "Go for it.

在这里提高一点效率，”说，“努力吧。

Here's my concerns.

这是我的担忧。

I imagine this part might not work, but this part is really cool right here." And then if it doesn't work, then they've stretched their agency.

我想这部分可能行不通，但这部分在这里真的很酷。”如果这不起作用，那么他们就会扩大他们的代理范围。

They've executed.

他们已经处决了。

They've exercised their agency.

他们已经行使了代理权。

They've learned.

他们已经学会了。

They've gotten stronger.

他们变得更强了。

They've grown.

他们长大了。

It has the upside if it turns out to actually work.

如果事实证明它确实有效，那么它就有好处。

And worst case scenario, the opportunity cost to doing the thing that helped them grow and they learn and they liked.

最坏的情况是，做那些帮助他们成长、学习和喜欢的事情的机会成本。

So I don't know.

所以我不知道。

Don't try to force it.

不要试图强迫它。

Don't try to stop it.

不要试图阻止它。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a really good example of actually how to go about doing that on your team.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的例子，说明了如何在团队中做到这一点。

The way I've always thought about this is the visual I share with people is like, you want to create cover fire for your team where your team's just hitting goals, moving metrics, and then while with that cover fire, you're building the doomsday bomb inside, protected where no one's going to come and stop you.

我一直思考这个问题的方式是我与人们分享的视觉效果，就像你想为你的团队创造掩护火力，你的团队只是实现目标，移动指标，然后在掩护火力的同时，你正在内部建造世界末日炸弹，受到保护，没有人会来阻止你。

Alex Komoroske: Yeah, because one of the hardest parts about an acorn when you plant it is making sure a squirrel doesn't dig that fucker up.

Alex Komoroske：是的，因为当你种植橡子时，最困难的部分之一就是确保松鼠不会把那个混蛋挖出来。

There's so many things that can destroy it, and just keeping it, allowing it some space and allowing it some time is the most important thing.

有很多东西可以摧毁它，而保留它、给它一些空间、给它一些时间才是最重要的。

And it's challenging to do, but that's why it's important as a leader to have enough credibility in the organization that people can see that you are doing useful work to give you the space, to give your team the space to do this truly great work.

做到这一点很有挑战性，但这就是为什么作为领导者在组织中有足够的可信度很重要，这样人们就能看到你正在做有用的工作，从而给你空间，给你的团队空间来完成这项真正伟大的工作。

If you want to get your team to do good work, there's a million different paths to do that.

如果你想让你的团队做好工作，有一百万种不同的途径可以做到这一点。

If you want to get your team to do great work, there's no shortcut other than to have an extremely high-trust environment where people lean into their superpowers in a way that adds up to something greater than some of its parts.

如果你想让你的团队做出出色的工作，除了拥有一个高度信任的环境之外，没有其他捷径，在这个环境中，人们可以充分发挥自己的超能力，从而产生比其中某些部分更强大的力量。

That takes time.

这需要时间。

It takes effort.

这需要努力。

It's very difficult to make legible up to the rest of the organization, but that is where great things come from.

让组织的其他成员清楚地了解是非常困难的，但这就是伟大事物的来源。

Lenny Rachitsky: It reminds me of something Ed Catmull shared in Creativity, Inc., this idea of the ugly baby, that every new idea is an ugly baby and nobody wants this ugly baby.

Lenny Rachitsky：这让我想起了 Ed Catmull 在 Creativity, Inc. 中分享的关于丑陋婴儿的想法，即每个新想法都是一个丑陋的婴儿，没有人想要这个丑陋的婴儿。

Everyone's just like, "Get this out of here," because every new idea is bad initially.

每个人都会说，“把这个离开这里”，因为每个新想法一开始都是糟糕的。

Alex Komoroske: Yeah, it sucks.

Alex Komoroske：是的，这很糟糕。

They're just like this ugly thing that barely works or...

它们就像这个丑陋的东西，几乎不起作用或者......

But this is why what I try to do is I try to see the greatness, the seeds of greatness in everything.

但这就是为什么我试图做的是我试图看到一切的伟大，伟大的种子。

Everyone and everything around me, I look for, I try to find and see, man, what is the most compelling part of this?

我周围的每个人和每件事，我寻找，我试图找到并看到，伙计，这其中最引人注目的部分是什么？

And let me lean into that.

让我深入探讨一下。

And so one of the things I try to do when I meet with people, when I mentor them, I try with it within the first session or two, whenever I can get a hypothesis, I say, "I think your superpower is..." And I describe to them what I think I can see them being truly exceptional at.

因此，当我与人会面时，当我指导他们时，我尝试做的一件事是，我会在前一两次会议中尝试，每当我能得到一个假设时，我就会说，“我认为你的超能力是……”然后我向他们描述我认为我能看到他们真正杰出的方面。

Alex Komoroske: And sometimes I get it wrong, especially if I try to do it earlier, but when people feel very seen and they feel acknowledged for that, they now are willing, they're going to stretch farther and they're going to respond to nudging feedback even better because they know that you're not trying to tell them be different.

Alex Komoroske：有时我会犯错，特别是如果我尝试更早地这样做，但当人们感到自己很被关注并且感到被认可时，他们现在愿意，他们会做得更远，他们会对推动反馈做出更好的反应，因为他们知道你并不是想告诉他们与众不同。

You're trying to tell them be more, and you now the nudges will feel less like a stop energy and more like someone who gets me and can help me grow even more.

你试图告诉他们要更多，而你现在的推动不再像一种停止的能量，而更像是一个能理解我并能帮助我成长得更多的人。

And you can get some amazing things out of people when you just treat them with the respect.

当你尊重别人时，你就能从他们身上得到一些令人惊奇的东西。

I assume that everyone I talk to, everyone I talk to is interesting, has seeds of greatness in them, even if they don't recognize necessarily where they are.

我认为与我交谈的每个人，与我交谈的每个人都很有趣，他们身上都有伟大的种子，即使他们不一定认识到自己在哪里。

Alex Komoroske: Someone described to me actually this morning in one of my little dirt clubs I run about they help facilitate about treat everybody like the Buddha.

Alex Komoroske：今天早上有人向我描述，在我经营的一个小肮脏俱乐部里，他们帮助促进像佛陀一样对待每个人。

I think is I'm messing this up, but this notion of imagine everyone you talk to is the Buddha, in a Buddhist mindset, and how do you see and find those seeds of greatness and treat everyone with respect intrinsically as an end of themselves.

我想我把这件事搞砸了，但这种想法是想象你所交谈的每个人都是佛陀，以佛教的心态，你如何看待和找到那些伟大的种子，并本质上尊重每个人，将其视为自己的目的。

This is one of those things that you do to be a compassionate human.

这是成为一个富有同情心的人要做的事情之一。

It's also, I believe, a way to maximize the amount of value, direct and indirect value, that's created.

我相信，这也是一种最大化所创造的价值（直接和间接价值）的方法。

So it's one of those win-win-win-win-wins where just it's the right thing to do as a person and a member of society, and it's also the thing that can create a lot of business value and create real value in the world.

因此，这是三赢之一，作为一个人和社会成员，这是正确的事情，也是可以创造大量商业价值并为世界创造真正价值的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Coda.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Coda 为您带来。

I use Coda every day to coordinate my podcasting and newsletter workflows.

我每天都使用 Coda 来协调我的播客和时事通讯工作流程。

From collecting questions for guests, to storing all my research, to managing my newsletter content calendar, Coda is my go-to app and has been for years.

从收集客人的问题，到存储我所有的研究成果，再到管理我的时事通讯内容日历，Coda 是我的首选应用程序，多年来一直如此。

Coda combines the best of documents, spreadsheets, and apps to help me get more done, and Coda can help your team to stay aligned and ship faster by managing your planning cycle in just one location, set and measure OKR's with full visibility across teams and stakeholders, map dependencies, create progress visualizations, and identify risk areas.

Coda 结合了最好的文档、电子表格和应用程序，帮助我完成更多工作，并且 Coda 可以通过在一个位置管理您的计划周期、在团队和利益相关者之间全面可见的情况下设置和衡量 OKR、映射依赖关系、创建进度可视化并识别风险领域，帮助您的团队保持一致并更快地交付。

You can also access hundreds of pressure-tested templates for everything from roadmap strategy to final decision-making frameworks.

您还可以访问数百个经过压力测试的模板，涵盖从路线图策略到最终决策框架的所有内容。

See for yourself why companies like DoorDash, Figma, and Qualtrics run on Coda.

亲自了解为什么 DoorDash、Figma 和 Qualtrics 等公司在 Coda 上运行。

Take advantage of this special limited-time offer just for startups.

利用这一专为初创公司提供的特殊限时优惠。

Head over to coda.io/lenny and sign up to get six free months of the team plan.

前往 coda.io/lenny 并注册即可获得六个月免费的团队计划。

That's coda.io/lenny to sign up and get six months of the team plan, coda.io/lenny.

这是 coda.io/lenny 注册并获得六个月的团队计划，coda.io/lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: Coming back to a phrase that you used earlier, slime molds, I want to spend a little time here.

Lenny Rachitsky：回到您之前使用的短语，粘菌，我想在这里花一点时间。

So interestingly enough, the first time I heard about you and what got me interested in your stuff is I did a newsletter post with the company Perplexity about how they build product.

有趣的是，我第一次听说你，以及让我对你的东西感兴趣的是，我为 Perplexity 公司发布了一篇关于他们如何构建产品的时事通讯。

And as they were describing how they organized their team, the co-founders described they organized like slime mold, and he linked to your deck about slime molds and I was like, "What the heck is this?" Can you just briefly describe what you mean when you talk about slime molds and how slime molds are related to the way companies are organized and how they should think of the organization?

当他们描述他们如何组织团队时，联合创始人描述他们的组织就像粘菌一样，他链接到你关于粘菌的甲板，我当时想，“这到底是什么？”您能否简单描述一下当您谈论粘菌时您的意思以及粘菌与公司的组织方式有何关系以及他们应该如何看待组织？

Alex Komoroske: Yeah.

亚历克斯·科莫罗斯克：是的。

The main thesis of the slime mold deck is that the core dynamic that makes organizations hard to navigate as they get larger, even if you assume everyone is actively good at what they do, actively collaborative and actively hardworking, is this emergent force or coordination of finding the subset of projects to work on when everyone's super busy that everyone agrees and commits to and actually works on together.

粘菌套牌的主要论点是，即使你假设每个人都积极擅长他们所做的事情，积极协作和积极勤奋，但随着组织规模的扩大，其核心动力就是在每个人都超级忙碌时找到要开展的项目子集的这种新兴力量或协调，每个人都同意并承诺并实际上一起工作。

And finding this coordination cost grows with the square of the number of people who are working on that thing.

发现这种协调成本随着从事该工作的人数的平方而增长。

And so what companies typically try to do is fight this or ignore that it exists.

因此，公司通常会试图对抗这一现象，或者忽视它的存在。

Alex Komoroske: If you're going to fight it, the one way to look at this is think of a company like a vehicle.

Alex Komoroske：如果你要与之抗争，看待这个问题的一种方法就是把公司想象成一辆汽车。

When the company is very small, you can drive it, you can steer it like a sports car.

当公司很小的时候，你可以驾驶它，你可以像跑车一样驾驶它。

As a founder, you are allowed to steer.

作为创始人，你可以掌舵。

Everyone acknowledges you are allowed to steer.

每个人都承认你可以掌舵。

They're never, "Why is he steering it that way?" So you, a founder, can help navigate an organization around an obstacle the organization cannot see or comprehend itself.

他们从来不会问“他为什么要那样做？”因此，作为创始人，您可以帮助组织绕过组织自身无法看到或理解的障碍。

The problem is as you steer, as you grow into the size, your organization goes from a sports car and you grow into the size of a big rig, if you drive a big rig like a sports car, you're going to be a danger to yourself and others on the road and you're going to grind the engine.

问题是，当你驾驶时，随着你的规模增大，你的组织会从跑车变成大型装备，如果你驾驶像跑车一样的大型装备，你将对自己和路上的其他人构成危险，并且你会磨坏发动机。

And so you got to drive the car that you actually have.

所以你必须驾驶你实际拥有的汽车。

Alex Komoroske: So what I see a lot of things happen in large organizations, that people are just trying to ignore this fact.

Alex Komoroske：所以我看到大型组织中发生了很多事情，人们只是试图忽略这个事实。

And when you drive, by the way, a car, your vehicle, like a big rig, when it is a big rig, people go, "Oh, it means to go slow." No, no, no. It means pivot less.

顺便说一句，当你驾驶一辆车，你的车辆，就像一个大钻机，当它是一个大钻机时，人们会说，“哦，这意味着要慢点。”不，不，不。这意味着更少的旋转。

It means have a little bit more...

意思就是再多一点...

Be more intentional about the times that you adjust the steering, invest more in program management, invest more in processes, give a little bit more slack in the planning process to absorb any kind of surprising things that you can still all reach the product launch at the same time.

更加有意识地调整方向，在项目管理上投入更多，在流程上投入更多，在规划过程中留出一点余地，以吸收任何令人惊讶的事情，这样你们仍然可以同时完成产品发布。

Alex Komoroske: The other option you can do is you can split your thing up into a series a swarm of sports cars, individual sports cars.

Alex Komoroske：您可以做的另一个选择是您可以将您的东西分成一系列跑车，单独的跑车。

And the downside of this, you'll get the autonomy and strengths of the bottom-up, the downside is other people will externally will look at it and go, "Well, that team and that team clearly didn't talk." You'll say, "Yep, yep." You have to decide how bad that is for you.

这样做的缺点是，你将获得自下而上的自主权和优势，缺点是其他人会从外部看到它并说，“好吧，那个团队和那个团队显然没有说话。”你会说：“是的，是的。”你必须决定这对你来说有多糟糕。

Apple has chosen the former.

苹果选择了前者。

It's very important to them to have the illusion of perfect coherence in their products.

对他们来说，在他们的产品中拥有完美连贯的错觉非常重要。

It worked very well for them.

这对他们来说非常有效。

They executed marvelously.

他们执行得非常出色。

And if you also picked the exact opposite thing, everyone else is like, "Yeah.

如果你也选择了完全相反的东西，其他人都会说：“是的。

There are like 15 different ways of doing everything.

做每件事都有大约 15 种不同的方式。

They clearly don't talk to each other." But it allows the overall swarm of the AWS product suite to be very powerful and anti-fragile or whatever you want to say.

他们显然不互相交谈。”但它使得 AWS 产品套件的整体群变得非常强大并且具有反脆弱性或者任何你想说的东西。

Alex Komoroske: And so slime molds, I think, is acknowledging that organizations are, especially ones that focus on autonomy and agency of their individual employees, which is a lot of tech companies, they are more like slime molds than we realize.

Alex Komoroske：我认为，粘菌是在承认组织，尤其是那些注重员工个体自主性和代理性的组织，比如很多科技公司，它们比我们意识到的更像粘菌。

And if you fight that fact, you're going to have a bad time.

如果你抗拒这一事实，你的日子就会很糟糕。

And if you embrace it, then you can start realizing slime molds are actually kind of amazing.

如果你接受它，那么你就会开始意识到粘菌实际上是令人惊奇的。

They can find solutions to problems you didn't even know you were searching for.

他们可以找到您甚至不知道自己在寻找的问题的解决方案。

Lenny Rachitsky: Alex, you have the best metaphors.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：亚历克斯，你有最好的比喻。

I don't know how you do this, but they're so evocative and correct.

我不知道你是怎么做到的，但它们是如此令人回味和正确。

Alex Komoroske: I can tell you that the process I do if you're into it.

Alex Komoroske：如果您感兴趣的话，我可以告诉您我所做的过程。

Lenny Rachitsky: Please.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：拜托。

That would be incredible.

那将是令人难以置信的。

Alex Komoroske: I think by talking, I'm an external processor, I literally can't think if I'm not talking.

Alex Komoroske：我认为通过说话，我是一个外部处理器，如果我不说话，我真的无法思考。

And so I make sure I have as many interesting meetings as I can, and that's where I discover what I think, by talking to people.

因此，我确保尽可能多地参加有趣的会议，这就是我通过与人们交谈来发现我的想法的地方。

And the test is if I say a frame, something that the person goes, "Ooh," or like, "Ooh," they go, "Aha," that's a win.

测试是，如果我说一个框架，人们会说“哦”，或者“哦”，他们会说“啊哈”，那就是胜利。

That's a mark that's a good one.

这是一个很好的标记。

You're just randomly casting about.

你只是随意地投掷。

I find one.

我找到一个。

And then if a different person also has a similar response, if a person in sales and a person in engineering both find the same idea interesting, that's a very good sign that lots of people will find it interesting, how diverse in terms of background skill sets, perspectives are the people who resonate with the thing you're saying.

然后，如果不同的人也有类似的反应，如果销售人员和工程人员都觉得同一个想法很有趣，这是一个很好的迹象，表明很多人都会觉得它很有趣，在背景技能、观点方面与你所说的事情产生共鸣的人有多么多样化。

Alex Komoroske: The intuition of this is if you find in a social network, you want to see what's going to go viral, if something is shared and it's shared within, so the people who are at the beginning are all highly densely interconnected in the social graph, then the implied ceiling is relatively small.

Alex Komoroske：这个的直觉是，如果你在社交网络中发现，你想看看什么会像病毒一样传播，如果某些东西被共享并且在内部共享，那么一开始的人在社交图中都是高度密集互连的，那么隐含的上限相对较小。

You only know it works with that audience.

你只知道它适合那些观众。

But if it's people that are very different subclass and very little overlap, they both find it interesting, that implies a much larger max audience.

但如果人们是非常不同的子类并且很少重叠，他们都会觉得有趣，这意味着最大受众要大得多。

So you're looking for ideas that resonate with the diversity of people.

因此，您正在寻找与人们的多样性产生共鸣的想法。

And then once you find them, each time you get something like that, you invest a little more time in it and you think a little bit more about framing it the next time.

然后，一旦你找到它们，每次你得到类似的东西，你都会在上面投入更多的时间，并且你会更多地考虑下一次的框架。

Alex Komoroske: I haven't done this during this chat, but in most conversations, you'll see me as I'm talking writing down stuff like, "Ooh, that was the best formulation of that one so far." And so you keep on coming back to it.

Alex Komoroske：我在这次聊天中没有这样做，但在大多数对话中，你会看到我在写下诸如“哦，这是迄今为止最好的表述”之类的东西。所以你不断地回到它。

You keep on tightening it and seeing how, watching how it's responding and referring with different people through like, "Where do you get these from?" It's like I got thousands and thousands and thousands of little examples or metaphors or whatever that's sick.

你继续收紧它，看看它如何反应，并通过“你从哪里得到这些？”之类的方式向不同的人推荐。就好像我有成千上万的小例子或隐喻或任何病态的东西。

Alex Komoroske: One of the benefits of metaphorical thinking is you connect nine of the 10 dots and you invite the listener to engage with the argument to connect that last dot.

Alex Komoroske：隐喻思维的好处之一是你可以连接 10 个点中的 9 个，并邀请听众参与论证以连接最后一个点。

This allows you by the way to say very controversial things, because if you say connect all the 10 dots and it's like, "Oh, that's the official strategy," then you are instantly a dangerous thing.

顺便说一句，这让你可以说出非常有争议的事情，因为如果你说连接所有 10 个点，就像，“哦，这就是官方策略”，那么你立刻就变成了一个危险的东西。

Whereas if you leave one dot unconnected, people can go connect the dot and go, "Oh my god, I think that applies to us." You're like, "Oh my god, what?" "Yes, that's why I picked that." But to counteract this because now it's less obvious to people that's correct, you have to make the metaphor evocative and interesting.

然而，如果你留下一个点不连接，人们可以连接这个点并说：“天哪，我认为这适用于我们。”你会说，“天啊，什么？” “是的，这就是我选择它的原因。”但为了抵消这一点，因为现在人们不太明显这是正确的，你必须让这个比喻令人回味和有趣。

Alex Komoroske: One of the reasons that slime mold deck got so much traction is partially because slime is gross, it's bad, and yet it's talking about why slime is good.

Alex Komoroske：粘液霉菌甲板受到如此多关注的原因之一部分是因为粘液很恶心，很糟糕，但它正在谈论为什么粘液是好的。

And so that has this instantly subversive thing.

于是就有了这种立即颠覆性的事情。

I only know this after the fact of trying to figure out why did that deck get so much attention of all the things I've written.

我只是在试图弄清楚为什么那套牌受到我写的所有东西的如此多关注之后才知道这一点。

Lenny Rachitsky: It also is all emojis basically, which is not how you often read a deck.

Lenny Rachitsky：基本上都是表情符号，这不是你通常阅读套牌的方式。

It's very beautifully made.

制作非常精美。

I love that you've been talking about the way you think and come up with ideas is by talking to people and having conversations.

我喜欢你一直在谈论你思考和提出想法的方式是通过与人交谈和对话。

We also talked about how you write in this Bits and Bobs approach.

我们还讨论了如何使用这种 Bits and Bobs 方法进行写作。

I asked someone that you worked with at Stripe what to ask you, and she said to ask you about strategy salons, which feels like a good avenue for this sort of thing.

我问你在 Stripe 共事过的人要问你什么，她说要问你关于战略沙龙的问题，这感觉是做这类事情的一个好途径。

Can you talk about what these are and how you set these up?

您能谈谈这些是什么以及如何设置它们吗？

Alex Komoroske: So these I also call now nerd clubs, and these are my secret weapon.

Alex Komoroske：所以我现在也将这些称为书呆子俱乐部，这是我的秘密武器。

And I have a blog post.

我有一篇博客文章。

I started writing right before my second kid was born, and then he was born three weeks early and I just lost the plot and now it's like a 40-page draft of a thing that I'll probably never finish.

我在我的第二个孩子出生之前就开始写作，然后他提前三周出生，我就失去了情节，现在它就像是一个我可能永远无法完成的事情的 40 页草稿。

But I've used this tactic.

但我已经使用了这个策略。

I discovered it many years ago as they strengthen some of the techniques I'd used in open source community organizing.

我多年前就发现了它，因为它们增强了我在开源社区组织中使用的一些技术。

And the situation was I was just joining a new team at Google.

当时的情况是我刚刚加入谷歌的一个新团队。

I've been there for many years, and there was at the time 12 different groups working in different aspects of this overall problem domain.

我已经在那里工作很多年了，当时有 12 个不同的小组在这个整体问题领域的不同方面工作。

And in classic Google fashion, they added up to significantly less than the sum of their parts, as in not like, "Oh, we'll see which one works," but, "These two things directly undermine each other.

在经典的谷歌风格中，它们的总和远远小于各自部分的总和，就像不是“哦，我们会看看哪一个有效”，而是“这两件事直接相互破坏。

If you execute both of these strategies, neither can work." And I knew that if you try to do pairwise executive reviews on this very complex, ambiguous, open-ended problem, you would get really expensive pageantry that would obscure more than clarified.

如果你执行这两种策略，则两者都不起作用。”我知道，如果你试图对这个非常复杂、模棱两可、开放式的问题进行成对的高管审查，你会得到非常昂贵的盛会，这将掩盖更多的澄清。

Alex Komoroske: So what I did was I created a secret group that I called Navel Gazers was the original one, and I wanted people when they hear about it, I want people to go, "That will be a club for nerds." They're like, "Yeah, do you want in?" And so this means that only people who intrinsically want to be in it for its own sake come in.

Alex Komoroske：所以我所做的就是创建了一个秘密团体，我称之为 Navel Gazers，这是最初的团体，我希望人们在听到这个消息时，我希望人们会说，“这将是一个书呆子俱乐部。”他们就像，“是的，你想进去吗？”因此，这意味着只有那些本质上想参与其中的人才能加入。

So you get only a positive "yes, and" kind of energy.

所以你只会得到一种积极的“是的，并且”的能量。

So then within these groups, you say, you set the norms very explicitly and say, "This is a collaborative debate environment.

因此，在这些群体中，你说，你非常明确地制定了规范，并说：“这是一个协作辩论环境。

This is only 'yes, and'." If somebody says a thing in this group that is optional and secret and completely off the side of anything that matters, if they say something that you think is an actively dumb idea, you are free to not engage.

这只是‘是的，并且’。”如果这个群体中有人说了一些可选的、秘密的、完全与重要的事情无关的事情，如果他们说了一些你认为是非常愚蠢的想法，你可以自由地不参与。

Just leave it.

就留下它吧。

That's fine.

没关系。

Because nothing's going to happen.

因为什么都不会发生。

We're deciding anything interesting or important here.

我们在这里决定任何有趣或重要的事情。

Alex Komoroske: And if you want to engage and you don't like it, a productive way of doing that is saying, "Oh, that's so interesting.

Alex Komoroske：如果你想参与但你不喜欢它，一种有效的方法就是说，“哦，那太有趣了。

I would never would've thought to apply that lens.

我绝不会想到要使用那个镜头。

I typically would apply this lens to that kind of problem.

我通常会用这个镜头来解决这类问题。

I wonder if that applies here." And by saying, "I wonder," you make it about you, not them.

我想知道这是否适用于这里。”通过说“我想知道”，你是在谈论你自己，而不是他们。

And so that person can choose if that's an interesting thing to build on or not.

这样这个人就可以选择这是否是一件有趣的事情。

This sounds by the way very non-rigorous feel like, "Ah, how can you possibly get rigorous thinking in the 'yes, and'?" It turns out there's limited amounts of time and so people will choose to build on the things they find most interesting.

顺便说一句，这听起来非常不严谨，就像“啊，你怎么可能在‘是的，并且’中得到严谨的思考？”事实证明，时间有限，因此人们会选择在他们认为最有趣的事情上进行构建。

This is interesting things are surprising and potentially valuable.

这是有趣的事情，令人惊讶且具有潜在价值。

And so if lots of different people in the group are building on the same idea, that's a good sign there is something very interesting going on.

因此，如果团队中许多不同的人都在同一个想法上构建，这是一个好兆头，有一些非常有趣的事情正在发生。

Alex Komoroske: The third thing you do is you dribble in new perspectives.

Alex Komoroske：你要做的第三件事就是以新的视角运球。

Every one to three a week, if you put in lots of new perspectives, once the norms can all scramble, if you have one in five people who all have a very particular kind of personality can mess up the norms, and so you're trying to minimize the chance you add a jerk.

每周一到三个，如果你引入很多新的观点，一旦规范可能会混乱，如果你有五分之一的人都有一种非常特殊的性格，就会扰乱规范，所以你要尽量减少添加混蛋的机会。

It takes one person to poop a party and go, "What are we even doing here?" You want to minimize the chance that happens.

一个人在聚会上大便后会问：“我们到底在这儿做什么？”您希望尽量减少发生这种情况的可能性。

But second or thirdly and more importantly, you want to have as people with as different perspective as possible added into the group.

但第二或第三，更重要的是，您希望将尽可能多具有不同观点的人添加到团队中。

And so this is what Ken Stanley might call, for example, novelty search.

这就是肯·斯坦利（Ken Stanley）所说的新奇搜索。

You're novelty-searching through the different perspectives in the overall thing.

你正在从整体事物的不同角度寻找新奇事物。

Alex Komoroske: When you do this properly, you get something magical.

Alex Komoroske：当你正确地做到这一点时，你会得到一些神奇的东西。

You get a group that people find intrinsically valuable for its own sake and just enjoy participating in and find meaning in, that also stochastically spins off changing insights for the surrounding context because you're searching through these ideas in a low stakes environment where the ideas that lots people build on, they go, "Oh, you should write that down." And this is like an idea lab, what everyone will call an idea lab.

你会得到一个人们认为本身具有内在价值的群体，他们只是喜欢参与并在其中寻找意义，这也会随机地衍生出对周围环境不断变化的见解，因为你是在一个低风险的环境中搜索这些想法，而很多人都建立在这些想法的基础上，他们会说，“哦，你应该把它写下来。”这就像一个创意实验室，大家都会称之为创意实验室。

And this creates amazingly interesting insights.

这创造了令人惊讶的有趣见解。

You just can't force it to do anything.

你只是不能强迫它做任何事情。

It has to be a bottom-up and emergent, which means if you try to steer it towards an outcome, it won't go.

它必须是自下而上的、紧急的，这意味着如果你试图引导它走向某个结果，它就不会成功。

But if you do these, they are amazing places to riff and to share ideas and half-formed ideas.

但如果你这样做了，它们就会成为你即兴创作、分享想法和不成熟想法的绝佳场所。

And this is anywhere I go, I terraform the culture around me and create these, because I need it as a place to experiment and try out different half-formed ideas and build on them and be inspired by other people.

无论我走到哪里，我都会改造我周围的文化并创造这些文化，因为我需要它作为一个地方来实验和尝试不同的半成形想法，并在此基础上进行构建并受到其他人的启发。

Alex Komoroske: And that is one of my secrets, strategy secrets that I've been doing now for probably 10 years ago is when the first one started.

Alex Komoroske：这是我的秘密之一，我现在一直在做的战略秘密可能是在 10 年前，也就是第一个秘密开始的时候。

And there's now I can count eight or nine of I've started over the years.

现在我可以数出这些年来我已经开始的八九个了。

Some of them emerged.

其中一些出现了。

So many of them are still at Google.

他们中的许多人仍然在谷歌工作。

And I think it's like they're just wondrous environments that I think create a lot of value.

我认为它们就像是奇妙的环境，我认为创造了很多价值。

Lenny Rachitsky: And I love it's a perfect example of your approach of emergent properties, letting things emerge versus a top-down, "Here's what we're doing and here's what we're talking about here." If someone wanted to set this up within their company or within friends, any advice?

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢它是你的新兴属性方法的完美例子，让事物自然出现而不是自上而下，“这就是我们正在做的事情，这就是我们在这里谈论的事情。”如果有人想在他们的公司或朋友中设置此功能，有什么建议吗？

What are some constraints and ways of setting it up for success?

有哪些限制和成功的方法？

Alex Komoroske: Communities are all about momentum.

Alex Komoroske：社区就是动力。

You want to have a space too small, a time too short.

你想要的空间太小，时间太短。

If you have a big cabinet space of a lot of people in it and no one's talking, people go, "I guess this is the place where we don't talk," for whatever reason.

如果你有一个很大的橱柜空间，里面有很多人，但没有人说话，人们就会说，“我想这是我们不说话的地方”，无论出于什么原因。

So what you're doing is you want the smallest seed of people that you know are going to be actively engaged.

所以你要做的就是希望你知道的最小的种子会积极参与。

So maybe there's four of you that already talk over lunch and you talk about whatever topic and it's always really interesting and generative.

所以，也许你们四个人已经在午餐时进行了交谈，并且谈论任何话题，而且总是非常有趣且富有成效。

Cool, get that group together and do a thing.

酷，让这个小组聚集在一起做一件事。

And then incrementally add people who you think are going to like that already as it currently exists.

然后逐步添加您认为会喜欢现有内容的人。

And then you need to feed it so you want to make sure that it never dies.

然后你需要喂养它，以确保它永远不会死。

Alex Komoroske: And a community with no people talking is definitely dead.

Alex Komoroske：一个没有人说话的社区肯定已经死了。

A community with one person talking is already dead.

一个只有一个人说话的社区已经死了。

You don't realize it yet.

你还没有意识到这一点。

And so you're trying to maximize the chance that there's an interesting conversation even when you as the facilitator are not there.

因此，即使作为协调人的您不在场，您也要尽量增加进行有趣对话的机会。

This takes some active policing by the...

这需要一些积极的监管......

Like a garden has a gardener, there's somebody pruning back and saying, "Hey Jeff, just so you know, I think that came out a little bit strong to Sarah's idea and maybe next time add 'I wonder' to the front of that statement," or whatever.

就像花园有园丁一样，有人修剪并说，“嘿，杰夫，只是让你知道，我认为这对莎拉的想法来说有点强烈，也许下次在该声明的前面添加“我想知道”，”或者其他什么。

Alex Komoroske: The other thing that you do is when people reach out to you and ping you, they go, "Hey, let's think about this thing," and you go, "That's a really interesting idea.

Alex Komoroske：你做的另一件事是，当人们联系你并联系你时，他们会说，“嘿，让我们考虑一下这件事，”然后你会说，“这是一个非常有趣的想法。

You should share that in the group." And then they do.

你应该在群组中分享这一点。”然后他们就这么做了。

And then you engage in the group and say, "That was really interesting," little emoji response.

然后你加入这个小组并说，“这真的很有趣”，小表情回应。

And people who didn't watch the interaction assume that Sarah just decided proactively to stick her neck out and share that and that it worked.

没有观看互动的人会认为莎拉只是决定主动伸出援手并分享这一点，而且这很有效。

And so this becomes a self-sustaining norm in the community.

因此，这成为社区中一种自我维持的规范。

And it's not a secret.

这不是秘密。

It's not if someone asks, "Yeah, I told Sarah to share that," but people watching don't realize that.

并不是有人问：“是的，我告诉莎拉分享这个”，而是观看的人没有意识到这一点。

And so it becomes a place that people do take risks and feel comfortable sharing.

因此，它成为人们确实愿意冒险并愿意分享的地方。

Alex Komoroske: The other thing you do is once a week or so, you want to make sure that you never propose something in the group that people go, "Eh." You always want to do a thing people go, "Yeah." So what you do is you see that if you're talking to other people, you say, "I wonder if we should have a live conversation every so often, right?" The chats were so fun, but it goes, "Would you come if I did one?" "Oh yeah, I would." "Okay, great." So now I say, "Hey, a few of us are talking.

Alex Komoroske：你做的另一件事是每周一次左右，你要确保你永远不会在小组中提出一些人们会说“呃”的东西。你总是想做一件事，人们会说“是的”。所以你所做的就是，如果你和其他人交谈，你会说：“我想知道我们是否应该经常进行现场对话，对吗？”聊天很有趣，但它是这样的，“如果我做一次，你会来吗？” “哦，是的，我愿意。” “好的，太好了。”所以现在我说：“嘿，我们几个人正在说话。

We're just going to do an experiment.

我们要做一个实验。

We're going to have an hour-long conversation over lunch on Wednesday.

周三午餐时我们将进行一个小时的谈话。

Anyone in the group is free to come."

团体中的任何人都可以自由前来。”

Alex Komoroske: And then what you do is you make sure it always has quorum because if it doesn't have quorum, then the thing, it looks like the community's dead.

Alex Komoroske：然后你要做的就是确保它始终有法定人数，因为如果没有法定人数，那么看起来社区就死了。

And then what you do is you send FOMO stuff afterwards.

然后你要做的就是在事后发送 FOMO 信息。

So you say, "Here's my notes from the thing," or, "Thanks Sarah, Jeff," blah, blah, blah, blah, "or an amazing conversation.

所以你说，“这是我的笔记，”或者，“谢谢莎拉，杰夫，”等等，等等，等等，“或者是一次很棒的对话。

I thought the insight about," blah blah blah, "was so ridiculously amazing." So you want people who were in the group who didn't come to feel like they missed out and to come to the next one.

我认为这种洞察力，“等等，真是太神奇了。”因此，您希望小组中没有参加的人感觉自己错过了机会，并参加下一个小组。

Alex Komoroske: And so you're constantly creating these kinds of vibes to how to do it.

Alex Komoroske：所以你不断地创造出如何做到这一点的氛围。

You can't do it if you don't have somebody with a lot of energy.

如果没有精力充沛的人，你就无法做到这一点。

I'm typically the seed crystal for a lot of the groups I'm in to start them off because I have a lot of energy, and I like, anything that people have to say that I think is open-minded or interesting, I like building on and "yes, and"-ing and that kind of gives the foundation that it can grow.

我通常是我加入的许多团体的种子水晶，因为我有很多精力，我喜欢人们所说的任何我认为思想开放或有趣的东西，我喜欢在此基础上“是的，还有”，这为它的成长奠定了基础。

But look for the people who already roughly want it.

但要寻找那些已经大致想要它的人。

Don't try to convince somebody who doesn't want it to want it.

不要试图说服不想要它的人想要它。

They will not.

他们不会。

They will ruin the whole thing.

他们会毁了整个事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: I just love this playbook for starting to build a little bit of community within a company.

Lenny Rachitsky：我很喜欢这本手册，因为它开始在公司内部建立一些社区。

Have you written about this by the way?

顺便说一句，你写过这个吗？

And if not, you should write a whole post about this.

如果没有，你应该写一篇关于这个的文章。

Alex Komoroske: I have.

亚历克斯·科莫罗斯克：我有。

It's a long essay and it's just not, you can see it in Bits and Bobs.

这是一篇很长的文章，但事实并非如此，你可以在《Bits and Bobs》中看到它。

If you gave the Bits and Bobs to Claude and said, "Please write a thing about nerd clubs and essay and the style," it would do it because there's a lot of the pieces are in there, it's just not factored out.

如果你把《Bits and Bobs》交给克劳德，并说：“请写一篇关于书呆子俱乐部、文章和风格的文章”，它会这么做，因为里面有很多东西，只是没有被分解出来。

Lenny Rachitsky: I see you writing something down right now, which tells me you just articulated something in a new way that you want to say.

Lenny Rachitsky：我看到你现在写下了一些东西，这告诉我你刚刚以一种新的方式表达了你想说的东西。

Alex Komoroske: Yeah, that's right.

Alex Komoroske：是的，没错。

That's right.

这是正确的。

Lenny Rachitsky: You mentioned this idea of constraints of time, and it reminds me of something that you shared in one of your Bits and Bobs around productivity.

Lenny Rachitsky：您提到了时间限制的想法，这让我想起您在《Bits and Bobs》中分享的有关生产力的内容。

You say that if you have two hours to do a five-minute task, the effort to do that is impossible and instead you should flip that.

你说如果你有两个小时来完成一个五分钟的任务，那么你是不可能做到这一点的，相反你应该翻转它。

Can you talk about this insight and how to be a little more productive?

您能谈谈这一见解以及如何提高工作效率吗？

Alex Komoroske: Yeah, I think a lot of the trick to productivity is to play yourself like a fiddle and figure out how you work and what gives you energy and set up your day to structure it that way.

Alex Komoroske：是的，我认为提高工作效率的秘诀就是像小提琴一样玩弄自己，弄清楚自己如何工作，什么给你能量，并以此方式安排你的一天。

So I find every time you start a task, there's an activation energy, especially a task you don't really want to do.

所以我发现每次你开始一项任务时，都会有一种激活能量，尤其是你并不真正想做的任务。

And then when you complete it, there's a boop.

然后当你完成它时，就会发出一声嘘声。

There's a little burst of energy.

有一点能量爆发。

So if you do this properly, you can get small things that are extremely easy to knock out in 10 seconds of effort, and then you do one that takes 30 seconds of effort, and then you do one that takes a longer bit of effort.

因此，如果你做得正确，你可以在 10 秒的努力内完成一件非常容易完成的小事情，然后你做一件需要 30 秒的努力的事情，然后你做一件需要更长一点努力的事情。

But if you give it too much space, it's harder to do.

但如果你给它太多的空间，那就更难做到了。

So you almost want to find, "Okay, listen, I got 10 minutes.

所以你几乎想要发现，“好吧，听着，我有 10 分钟时间。

I got to do this thing where I figure out how to add, do this thing in gusto that I've been putting off.

我必须做这件事，弄清楚如何添加，热情地做这件事，我一直在推迟。

Ten minutes should be enough time to do it and structure it.

十分钟应该足够完成并构建它。

So okay, right now is the only time I have to do this, to do it."

所以好吧，现在是我唯一必须这样做的时候。”

Alex Komoroske: And another trick is I use one of my original media messages actually, one of the original public ones is about always rules are better than sometimes rules for self-control.

Alex Komoroske：另一个技巧是我实际上使用了我最初的媒体信息之一，最初的公开信息之一是关于总是规则比有时的自我控制规则更好。

And so if you're going to diet, "I'm going to skip lunch every day." Like holy, you haven't full thought on that at some point like a day with a big executive review, "I really need to make sure I'm well-fed before I go into this review," or something.

因此，如果你要节食，“我每天都会不吃午餐。”天哪，你在某些时候还没有充分考虑到这一点，比如有一天要进行一次大型的高管审查，“我真的需要确保在进行这次审查之前我吃饱了”，或者其他什么。

And now you've broken the streak and now it's over.

现在你已经打破了连续纪录，现在一切都结束了。

Whereas if you say a thing you know can do, "I will not have a dessert unless it would be socially awkward for me to not eat it.

然而，如果你说一件你知道可以做的事情，“我不会吃甜点，除非不吃它会让我在社交上感到尴尬。

For example, in a small environment where somebody made homemade dessert and all of us are eating it, I'm going to..." So very clear black and white rule that you can hold on forever.

例如，在一个小环境中，有人自制甜点，我们所有人都在吃它，我会……”非常清晰的黑白规则，你可以永远坚持下去。

Alex Komoroske: So for example, since the pandemic started, I've done a Peloton workout every single day since the pandemic started.

Alex Komoroske：举个例子，自从大流行开始以来，我每天都进行主力训练。

Alex Komoroske: And now once I do start going back into the office, if I had to commute into the office, I would sometimes do a meditation to check the box for that.

Alex Komoroske：现在，一旦我开始回到办公室，如果我必须通勤去办公室，我有时会进行冥想以选中该复选框。

But if I'm not commuting and I'm not deathly sick, I've done a full workout since then.

但如果我不上下班，也没有病重，从那以后我就进行了全面的锻炼。

And the idea each day of is today the day of all the hundreds of days in this streak that is the worst or the hardest for me to do this thing?

每天的想法是今天是我连续数百天中最糟糕或最难做这件事的一天？

Is this the day?

这是今天吗？

No, of course it's not.

不，当然不是。

I will do it.

我会做。

And so that keeps you in this streak that makes it harder and harder to get out of it.

因此，这会让你一直处于这种状态，并且越来越难摆脱这种状态。

And in some ways, of course you can torture yourself in an unproductive way like at a certain point maybe you should stop that streak, but I think those kinds of structuring help you get the things done you want to get done.

在某些方面，你当然可以以一种非生产性的方式折磨自己，比如在某个时刻你可能应该停止这种连续的状态，但我认为这些类型的结构可以帮助你完成你想做的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's like the Seinfeld trick of productivity where you just keep track of how many days in where you've done something essentially.

Lenny Rachitsky：这就像宋飞传的生产力技巧，你只需记录你基本上完成某件事的天数即可。

Alex Komoroske: Yeah, exactly.

Alex Komoroske：是的，完全正确。

And I think people don't give those kinds of tactics enough credit because there's lots of little social tricks to yourself and others.

我认为人们对这些策略没有给予足够的重视，因为这对你自己和他人来说有很多社交小伎俩。

This is when you have other people who are depending on you for something and will know that you didn't do the thing, that were so much better.

当你有其他人在某些事情上依赖你并且知道你没有做这件事时，那就好多了。

So just little tricks like this help you be wildly more productive.

因此，像这样的小技巧可以帮助您大大提高工作效率。

Lenny Rachitsky: Actually, I want to go back a little bit.

Lenny Rachitsky：实际上，我想回去一点。

I'm curious what you wrote down when we were chatting earlier that you thought was a good articulation if you're able to share, if it's interesting,

我很好奇你在我们之前聊天时写下的内容，你认为这是一个很好的表达，如果你能够分享，如果它很有趣，

Alex Komoroske: I wrote down, and the reason I wrote it down is I've never...

Alex Komoroske：我写下来了，我写下来的原因是我从来没有……

And by the way, I collect everything even once I think are maybe onto something.

顺便说一句，即使我认为可能有某件事，我也会收集一切。

So I wrote down, "A community with zero people speaking is dead and a community with one person speaking doesn't yet realize it's dead," is what I wrote down.

所以我写下了“一个零人发言的社区已经死亡，一个只有一人发言的社区尚未意识到它已经死亡”，这就是我写下的内容。

Lenny Rachitsky: So fun.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太有趣了。

I love this practice that you have.

我喜欢你的这种做法。

Alex Komoroske: By the way, the reason I can do it, I can type insanely quickly.

Alex Komoroske：顺便说一句，我能做到这一点的原因是我可以疯狂地快速打字。

And in undergrad, I wrote my thesis on the emergent power dynamics in Wikipedia's user community and I did 150 hours of interviews with different editors in Wikipedia, and I transcribed them myself.

在本科阶段，我写了一篇关于维基百科用户社区中新兴权力动态的论文，我对维基百科的不同编辑进行了 150 个小时的采访，然后我自己转录了它们。

And so I got really, really, really good at I can just pipe an idea straight into my fingertips and still listen to other stuff.

所以我真的非常非常擅长将一个想法直接输入我的指尖，同时仍然可以听其他的东西。

So that's another superpower is I've just constantly, I'm able to capture it very, very quickly.

所以这是另一个超能力，我不断地、非常快地捕捉到它。

I've written notes that are at least good enough for me to clean up within the next day or two into something that's more stable.

我写的笔记至少足以让我在接下来的一两天内清理成更稳定的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there a way you built this other than...

Lenny Rachitsky：除了……之外，还有其他方法可以构建这个吗？

Was it just you did it and you had to do it and you just figured out how to move fast?

是不是只有你做到了，你必须这样做，然后你才知道如何快速行动？

Alex Komoroske: I just realized later that I could type really good, really fast.

Alex Komoroske：我后来才意识到我可以打字得非常好、非常快。

I could just pipe it straight through to my fingers and it worked.

我可以直接将它输送到我的手指上，它就起作用了。

And, I don't know, I don't know if I hadn't written my thesis, would I have discovered that?

而且，我不知道，我不知道如果我没有写论文，我会发现这一点吗？

I don't know.

我不知道。

Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like everything you do is on super speed, the way you think, the write and get stuff done.

Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得你所做的一切都以超快的速度、你的思考方式、写作方式和完成工作的方式进行。

There's a lot.

有很多。

Alex Komoroske: ...

亚历克斯·科莫罗斯克：...

when you're feeling productive, you're unstoppable.

当你感到富有成效时，你就势不可挡。

And so just how can you be in your flow state as much as possible?

那么如何才能尽可能地处于心流状态呢？

And there's things that absolutely completely grind me to a halt, and I just make sure I invest my time in situations that don't have that characteristic.

有些事情绝对会让我彻底陷入停滞，我只是确保将时间投入到不具有这种特征的情况中。

So when I work on something that I believe could work and have a big impact, I can't stop.

因此，当我从事一些我认为可行且能产生重大影响的事情时，我就无法停止。

Sometimes I'll wake up at 4:00 in the morning as I'm typically an early riser and I'm just like, "I'll write this thing." The meeting starts at 7:00 and I just think there's an idea that's really cool here and I let myself lean into those kinds of when I have the moment.

有时我会在早上 4:00 醒来，因为我通常是一个早起的人，我就想，“我会写这个东西。”会议于 7:00 开始，我只是觉得这里有一个非常酷的想法，当我有时间的时候，我会让自己投入其中。

Alex Komoroske: I also find that often if I have an idea and I just have itching to write it down, if I can write down 30 minutes and get a very rough of it in one place, now it's easier to clean it up later.

Alex Komoroske：我还发现，如果我有一个想法，并且很想把它写下来，如果我能在 30 分钟内写下来并在一个地方得到一个非常粗略的内容，那么以后清理它就更容易了。

But that first act of creation, I do it whenever the muse hits because it's 10 million times if it's like, "Oh, write that idea down later," you keep on delaying it, delaying it, now it's a month later.

但创作的第一个动作，每当缪斯出现时我都会这样做，因为如果它像“哦，稍后写下这个想法”，我就会这样做一千万次，你继续推迟它，推迟它，现在已经是一个月后了。

"What was the idea?

“有什么想法吗？

How did that work again?" It's gone.

怎么又起作用了？”它消失了。

And so I just try to capture the interesting insights.

所以我只是尝试捕捉有趣的见解。

It's like a butterfly collector.

它就像一个蝴蝶收藏家。

The butterflies are going by, I try to collect them and put them in my collection as quickly as possible.

蝴蝶飞过，我试着尽快把它们收集起来，放进我的收藏里。

Lenny Rachitsky: Or garden as one might describe it.

Lenny Rachitsky：或者正如人们所描述的那样，是花园。

Lenny Rachitsky: This touches on a quote I wanted to talk to you about.

Lenny Rachitsky：这涉及到我想和你谈论的一句话。

I think you described it as your life philosophy.

我认为你将其描述为你的人生哲学。

"Do things that give you energy that you are proud of." Talk about that.

“做一些能给你带来能量、让你感到自豪的事情。”谈谈那个。

Alex Komoroske: So to me, it's the combination of when you're doing something you believe in and that gives you energy, you are 10 times more productive.

Alex Komoroske：所以对我来说，当你在做你相信的事情并且给你能量时，你的工作效率就会提高 10 倍。

And you also, the effort that you are doing is its own reward.

还有你，你所做的努力本身就是回报。

And so you are indefatigable on that topic and you go for much longer.

所以你在这个话题上不知疲倦，而且持续的时间更长。

So finding the substance of things that align with you that give you energy, then just it's like infinite energy.

因此，找到与你相一致并给予你能量的事物的实质，那么它就像是无限的能量。

It's like they give an opportunity cost because it energizes you more than the opportunity cost of the time to go spend to other things.

就像他们给出了机会成本，因为它比花在其他事情上的时间的机会成本更能激励你。

Alex Komoroske: And two, there are ways to give yourself energy, like for example, playing a video game, or there's any kind of mind-altering substance that might give you that like, "This gives me energy." Those are not things that I'm not saying do those.

Alex Komoroske：第二，有很多方法可以给自己能量，例如玩电子游戏，或者任何一种改变思想的物质可能会给你这样的感觉，“这给了我能量。”这些不是我不会说做的事情。

I'm saying what are the things that you'll look back and say, "I'm glad I did that.

我说的是哪些事情你会在回顾时说：“我很高兴我这么做了。

I'm proud that I did that." And if you take the perspective of a 10 years on looking back on each decision and thing that you're doing, and imagine seeing this decision played in front of 1,000 people whose opinion you care about, your family, your friends, your role models, would you be proud is a good sign of life that you're taking a broad enough perspective.

我很自豪我做到了这一点。”如果你以 10 年来的视角来回顾你所做的每一个决定和所做的事情，并想象一下，看到这个决定在 1000 个你关心的人（你的家人、你的朋友、你的榜样）面前做出，你会感到自豪吗？这是一个良好的生活迹象，表明你拥有足够广泛的视角。

Alex Komoroske: When you're busy and in the moment, it's so easy to say, "I just got to do this one thing that's probably not great to get this thing done.

Alex Komoroske：当你很忙的时候，很容易说，“我只是要做这件事，但完成这件事可能不太好。

And once I do it, it's going to suck.

一旦我这么做了，就会很糟糕。

But once I do it, it'll be fine." And then you find yourself doing it again and again and again and again and before you know it, you've lost who you want to be and you're now a husk of yourself.

但一旦我做到了，那就没问题了。”然后你发现自己一次又一次地这样做，在你意识到之前，你已经失去了你想成为的人，你现在只剩下一个空壳了。

And so I think those two pieces lean into where you find energy, where you specifically find energy, your superpower, the thing that you intrinsically enjoy doing, and just make sure it's something that you are actively proud of and that helped make sure you don't take a bunch of shortcuts.

所以我认为这两部分倾向于你在哪里找到能量，你在哪里特别找到能量，你的超能力，你本质上喜欢做的事情，并且确保它是你积极自豪的事情，并且有助于确保你不会走很多捷径。

Lenny Rachitsky: Along those same lines, I think a lot of people have heard a version of this quote, which is, "New things that give you energy." So one, I love the additional piece of it is, "and that you're proud of." Two, you have another quote that I love that makes you think deeply about stuff, which is, "The secrets of life is things you've heard a million times already, you just weren't ready to hear them." Talk about that insight.

Lenny Rachitsky：同样，我想很多人都听过这句话的一个版本，即“给你能量的新事物”。所以，我喜欢其中的附加部分，“你为此感到自豪。”第二，我喜欢你的另一句话，它让你深入思考一些事情，那就是，“生命的秘密是你已经听过一百万次的事情，只是你还没有准备好听它们。”谈谈这个见解。

Alex Komoroske: So this I call the Hallmark card fallacy, which is you discover at great effort some deep insight that resonates with you and makes you see the world differently, and you want to share it.

Alex Komoroske：所以我称之为霍尔马克卡片谬误，即你经过巨大的努力发现了一些深刻的见解，这些见解与你产生共鸣，让你以不同的方式看待世界，并且你想要分享它。

Insights are naturally viral.

见解自然会像病毒一样传播。

You want to share them and you go tell someone, it's like, "Guys, guys, the point of life is the friends we made along the way." And people go, "That's from a Hallmark card, man." And to you, it is you now possess the knowledge, the emotional intelligence to understand why that phrase has been shared so many times.

你想分享它们，然后你告诉别人，就像，“伙计们，伙计们，生活的意义在于我们一路上结识的朋友。”人们会说，“这是来自霍尔马克卡的，伙计。”对你来说，你现在拥有知识和情商来理解为什么这句话被分享了这么多次。

Before, you heard it when you weren't ready and now it becomes a trite, "Duh, everyone says that.

以前，你在还没准备好时就会听到这句话，现在它变成了陈词滥调，“呃，每个人都这么说。

That can't possibly be a meaningful statement."

这不可能是一个有意义的声明。”

Alex Komoroske: The reason people keep on saying it is because it's meaningful.

Alex Komoroske：人们之所以一直这么说，是因为它很有意义。

And so I think that having that space of recognizing it, that when you have these epiphanies that come from different leaps in vertical development or the ability to, when you stare into the abyss and make it through the other side, you realize and learn a bunch of amazing things that you want to pass on others, and it's just really hard to get them to find it.

因此，我认为，拥有认识它的空间，当你拥有来自垂直发展或能力的不同飞跃的顿悟时，当你凝视深渊并穿越另一边时，你会意识到并学到一堆你想传递给别人的令人惊奇的东西，而让他们找到它真的很难。

Alex Komoroske: I find that that's one of the reasons I try to write things that are or share ideas that are like little seeds that you can shoot into someone's brain even if the soil's not ready for it, it's rocky or craggy, at some point in the future, if something goes through there and opens up a crack, that's sitting there to grow into an idea.

Alex Komoroske：我发现这就是我尝试写东西或分享想法的原因之一，这些东西就像小种子一样，你可以将它们射入某人的大脑，即使土壤还没有准备好，它是岩石或崎岖的，在未来的某个时刻，如果有东西穿过那里并打开一条裂缝，它就会坐在那里成长为一个想法。

One of the things that makes me the happiest is when someone I've mentored years and the years in the past, they go search me out years later and say, "Alex, I just want to let you know, you probably don't even remember talking to me, but that Tuesday at the building, the no-name cafe or whatever, on Google campus, you said something I was frustrated to hear in the moment I didn't understand it.

让我最高兴的事情之一是，当我指导过很多年的人多年后，他们来找我并说，“亚历克斯，我只是想让你知道，你可能甚至不记得和我说过话，但是那个星期二，在大楼里，无名咖啡馆或其他什么地方，在谷歌园区，你说了一些我当时听不懂的沮丧的话。

And I just want to tell you, thank you because I finally understand what you were trying to tell me.

我只想告诉你，谢谢你，因为我终于明白你想告诉我什么了。

And I realized that that influenced me in the decisions." That to me is one of those meaningful things I can hear.

我意识到这影响了我的决定。”对我来说，这是我能听到的有意义的事情之一。

Alex Komoroske: And so I just find that you can't force it before people are ready to hear certain topics.

Alex Komoroske：所以我发现在人们准备好听到某些话题之前你不能强迫它。

Lenny Rachitsky: Man, that must feel so good to hear those sorts of closing the loop on something long ago.

Lenny Rachitsky：伙计，听到很久以前的事情结束循环一定感觉很好。

The point you make about cliches that you've heard a million times actually finally feeling right and profound, I had this very experience.

你所说的那些你已经听过一百万次的陈词滥调实际上最终感觉正确和深刻，我有过这样的经历。

I did a psychedelic trip with some friends a while ago, and at the end of it I was just like, "Man, love is all you need.

不久前，我和一些朋友进行了一次迷幻之旅，最后我想，“伙计，爱就是你所需要的一切。

Love is all you need." I felt that so deeply through the experience and I was telling people, they're like, "Shut up."

爱就是你所需要的一切。”通过这次经历，我深深地感受到了这一点，我告诉人们，他们就像是“闭嘴”。

Alex Komoroske: You telling, oh, do you just do psychedelics?

Alex Komoroske：你说，哦，你只是做迷幻药吗？

Yeah, it's funny.

是的，这很有趣。

Alex Komoroske: I have a lot of folks in my broader space who obviously have used it.

Alex Komoroske：在我更广泛的领域里，有很多人显然已经使用过它。

So I never personally have myself, but I find there's various ways.

所以我个人从来没有拥有过自己，但我发现有各种各样的方式。

The transcendent mindset is this feeling of being part of something much, much, much larger than yourself and losing your ego in this thing.

超越心态是一种感觉，自己是比自己大得多的事物的一部分，并在这件事上失去了自我。

There's different ways of doing it.

有不同的方法可以做到这一点。

Some people will find it in hiking and being out in the wilderness alone.

有些人会在徒步旅行和独自在荒野中发现它。

Some people find it being at a concert and thousands of people perfectly in sync to this thing.

有些人发现这是在一场音乐会上，成千上万的人与这件事完美同步。

Some people find it in religious experience.

有些人在宗教经历中找到它。

Some people find it using psychedelics and others to help get there.

有些人发现它使用迷幻药和其他人来帮助实现这一目标。

But a lot of it, it's that same just being willing to be in awe.

但很多时候，只是愿意敬畏而已。

Alex Komoroske: There's so many times that people feel the feeling of awe or wonder or curiosity is treated as a not very serious or childlike thing.

Alex Komoroske：很多时候，人们觉得敬畏、惊奇或好奇的感觉被视为不太严肃或孩子气的事情。

And I just don't get that because that is how you are open to disconfirming evidence.

我只是不明白这一点，因为这就是你对否定证据持开放态度的方式。

It's how you see beyond the current limits of what you...

这就是你如何超越你当前的限制......

Your ego gets hurt when you get disconfirming evidence.

当你得到否定的证据时，你的自尊心就会受到伤害。

You don't want to hear it.

你不想听到它。

And so you'll construct the world around yourself to not get that disconfirming evidence.

所以你会构建自己周围的世界，以避免得到那些令人反驳的证据。

But disconfirming evidence is what makes systems strong.

但反驳证据才是让系统变得强大的原因。

It's what makes you strong.

这就是让你坚强的原因。

And so how do you put yourself in the situation to get that information and really receive it?

那么，您如何将自己置于获取该信息并真正接收它的境地呢？

Alex Komoroske: And part of it is just coming in terms of the fact of early in my career, someone called me kooky a bit.

Alex Komoroske：部分原因是在我职业生涯的早期，有人说我有点古怪。

Oh, man.

哦，伙计。

I must be embarrassed.

我一定很尴尬。

I'm like, "Okay, fine.

我想，“好吧，好吧。

Yeah, I'm kooky, whatever." I'm totally at peace with the idea that some people track me as kooky and not particularly serious.

是的，我很古怪，无论如何。”我完全可以接受有些人认为我很古怪而且不太严肃的想法。

I think people who watch the work that I do and the indirect impact it has realize that I'm doing something that is working even if they don't fully understand how it works.

我认为观看我所做的工作以及它所产生的间接影响的人会意识到我正在做一些有效的事情，即使他们并不完全理解它是如何运作的。

Lenny Rachitsky: To start to close our conversation, I want to throw out one more seed that might land with someone in the right time.

Lenny Rachitsky：为了结束我们的谈话，我想再扔一颗种子，它可能会在正确的时间落在某人身上。

You have this concept of the adjacent possible, which I think is a really powerful concept.

你有相邻可能性的概念，我认为这是一个非常强大的概念。

And it's basically argues that a lot of people jump to big bold ideas, and instead the better approach is think about what's a constraint you have and lean into the constraints and use that as a guide.

它基本上认为，很多人都会跳出大胆的想法，相反，更好的方法是思考你所面临的限制是什么，并利用这些限制并将其用作指导。

Can you just talk about this and how this might inform how people think about product and strategy?

您能否谈谈这一点以及这如何影响人们对产品和战略的看法？

Alex Komoroske: Sure, yeah.

Alex Komoroske：当然，是的。

The frame is the adjacent possible, which is I believe comes from design thinking.

框架是相邻的可能，我相信这来自于设计思维。

I've found it from designers in my life who are the ones who would just speak to it.

我从我生命中的设计师那里找到了它，他们就是那些会谈论它的人。

And the adjacent possible is a set of actions that you do, that you can do.

相邻的可能是你所做的、你可以做的一组动作。

They are right in front of you that if you do them, they would work, almost certainly work.

它们就在你面前，如果你这样做，它们就会起作用，几乎肯定会起作用。

And in the tech industry in particular, we default assume that the adjacent possible is like this and then flying leap to something.

特别是在科技行业，我们默认假设相邻的可能性是这样的，然后飞跃到某物。

And in reality, the adjacent possible is quite small.

而实际上，相邻的可能性很小。

It's within arm's reach.

就在触手可及的地方。

And people will say, "Oh, you're being nihilist.

人们会说：“哦，你是虚无主义者。

You're limiting your potential.

你限制了你的潜力。

You're saying don't do big things." But when you recognize that your adjacent possible is relatively small, you realize that you actually have full agency to pick within the subset that is within your reach, and your actions matter because you take an action and now the world reconfigures and now you get a next set of actions and it's based partially on the action you just took.

你是说不要做大事。”但是，当您认识到您的相邻可能性相对较小时，您就会意识到您实际上拥有完整的代理机构可以在您力所能及的子集中进行选择，并且您的行动很重要，因为您采取了一项行动，现在世界重新配置，现在您得到了下一组行动，并且它部分基于您刚刚采取的行动。

Alex Komoroske: And so if you slice this thing up and you have a coherent worldview and you have a principled approach, you can arc to wildly different outcomes than look like they were possible while at each point, each individual action is safe and reasonable.

Alex Komoroske：所以，如果你把这件事分开，你有一个连贯的世界观，你有一个有原则的方法，你可能会得到与看起来完全不同的结果，而在每个点上，每个单独的行动都是安全合理的。

And so you can combine both of these things.

所以你可以将这两件事结合起来。

I think so many times we try to jump and we jump to the end state of the thing.

我想很多次我们尝试跳跃并且跳到事情的最终状态。

And actually you don't need to make that decision.

事实上你不需要做出这样的决定。

If you can slice up your decisions into smaller and smaller decisions, I'm like, "This next step definitely makes sense." It will almost certainly pay for itself or the very least won't be too expensive.

如果你可以将你的决定分成越来越小的决定，我想，“下一步绝对是有意义的。”它几乎肯定会收回成本，或者至少不会太贵。

And then it might allow these other things to happen and you take it.

然后它可能会允许其他事情发生，而你接受它。

And if those other things don't happen, okay, don't take another step on that path.

如果其他事情没有发生，好吧，不要在这条路上再迈出一步。

That's fine.

没关系。

Go in other directions for a while.

暂时朝其他方向走。

If it does, then take another step and another and another and another.

如果是这样，那就再采取一步、再一步、再一步、再一步。

Alex Komoroske: And this allows you to get rid of a lot of the risk and still be exposed to all the upside.

Alex Komoroske：这可以让你摆脱很多风险，同时仍然能够享受到所有的好处。

And so the risk comes from trying to jump too far ahead in an unknown environment.

因此，风险来自于试图在未知的环境中跳得太远。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is the general advice if someone's working on trying to figure out the roadmap, trying to think about what products to build is the advice, don't be scared to go a little incremental versus what people are always pushed, to do bigger.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果有人正在努力找出路线图，试图思考要构建什么产品，那么一般建议是，不要害怕渐进一点，而不是人们总是被推动做更大的事情。

Alex Komoroske: You need both.

Alex Komoroske：两者都需要。

So if you only do incremental, you will follow the shortest, the steepest gradient in front of you.

因此，如果你只做增量运动，你就会沿着你面前最短、最陡的坡度前进。

So UXR says a user wants to do this and you'll do exactly that and you'll end up random walking through the thing.

因此，UXR 表示用户想要执行此操作，而您将完全执行该操作，并且最终会随机浏览该内容。

So you need coherence about where you're going and the way you get that is by creating a North Star for yourself.

因此，你需要对自己要去的地方和实现目标的方式保持一致，那就是为自己创造一颗北极星。

It should be in three to five years in the future, it should be very low resolution.

应该是未来三五年，分辨率应该很低。

It should describe a thing that every single person who reads it who has any kind of knowledge that might be useful or relevant agrees that it is plausible.

它应该描述一个事物，每个阅读它的人，如果拥有任何可能有用或相关的知识，都同意它是合理的。

If this happens, I would not say, "Well, a miracle happened." It'd say, "I could see how that could work." And lawyers say, "I could see how that could work." And someone who's worked on this 30 years ago at a similar product that Microsoft says, "I can see how that could work."

如果发生这种情况，我不会说：“好吧，奇迹发生了。”它会说：“我知道这是如何运作的。”律师们说：“我知道这会如何运作。” 30 年前曾在微软的类似产品上从事过这项工作的人说，“我可以看到它是如何运作的。”

Alex Komoroske: And that if you got to the end point, everyone would high five because if it's going to be a thing, they're like, "I guess that could work." At the end we'd be like, "Oh yeah, neat." That's not worth it.

Alex Komoroske：如果你到达终点，每个人都会高举五分，因为如果这将成为一件事，他们会说，“我想这可行。”最后我们会说，“哦，是的，很好。”那不值得。

You want another story would be like, "Yeah, great.

你想要另一个故事会是这样的，“是的，太棒了。

Wow, we kick off.

哇，我们开始了。

We changed the way this entire industry works," or whatever.

我们改变了整个行业的运作方式，”或者其他什么。

And now this is your North Star.

现在这是你的北极星。

North Star should update, but it's because it's far off in the distance.

北极星应该更新，但那是因为它距离很远。

It will update.

它会更新。

It will slide up across the sky a little bit.

它将在天空中向上滑动一点。

It won't be jerking around.

它不会乱动。

You'll be arcing slightly differently.

你的电弧会略有不同。

And then what you do is you look in your adjacent possible and you look for the thing that has the steepest gradient that pulls you towards your North Star.

然后你要做的就是寻找邻近的可能性，寻找具有最陡坡度的东西，将你拉向北极星。

So you just want to go in that direction and you want to go in this direction.

所以你只想往那个方向走，你就想往这个方向走。

This one is second most in demand from what you think, but it's pulling you the direction that you believe will pull you there.

从你的想法来看，这个需求是第二大的，但它正在把你拉向你相信会拉你到那里的方向。

Go in that one.

进去那个吧。

Alex Komoroske: And then they keep on repeating.

Alex Komoroske：然后他们继续重复。

That's it.

就是这样。

But you need both.

但你两者都需要。

Because if you only do incremental, then you'll end up random walking into a corner.

因为如果你只做增量，那么你最终会随机走进一个角落。

And if you only do the long-term, you end up dreaming big and designing castles in the sky that are impossible to actually manifest.

如果你只做长期的事情，你最终会梦想成真，设计出不可能实际实现的空中楼阁。

Lenny Rachitsky: To give you a metaphor from an experience I had, I did this silent meditation retreat once, and a big part of Buddhism is to not cling to a specific outcome and not have a plan in mind and be sad if it doesn't work out.

莱尼·拉奇茨基（Lenny Rachitsky）：用我的一次经历来比喻，我曾经做过一次静默冥想静修，佛教的很大一部分就是不执着于特定的结果，心中没有计划，如果不成功就感到悲伤。

And so I asked them just how do you achieve success and want to be successful while not doing that?

所以我问他们如何取得成功，以及如何在不这样做的情况下取得成功？

And their metaphor is point your card in a specific direction that you want to go.

他们的比喻是将你的卡片指向你想去的特定方向。

Just point your card in that direction, essentially in your example of North Star, and just start walking.

只需将你的卡片指向那个方向，基本上以北极星为例，然后开始行走。

Don't figure out this is exactly the path I'm going to take to get to this end destination.

不要弄清楚这正是我到达最终目的地所要走的路径。

Alex Komoroske: Yeah.

亚历克斯·科莫罗斯克：是的。

And you'll know after the fact, you'll say, "Oh, I curved a little bit or I had this little jog than there." And you'll say, "Ah, it would've been more efficient." But we're so focused on efficiency of not wasting effort that we ended up doing nothing at all or doing very dangerous things that don't work.

事后你就会知道，你会说，“哦，我弯曲了一点，或者我比那里慢跑了一点。”你会说，“啊，这样会更有效率。”但我们过于注重效率而不是浪费精力，结果我们什么都不做，或者做了非常危险但不起作用的事情。

So I'm much sure that I have a path that's slightly inefficient because we're navigating unknowns and we couldn't know no point.

所以我非常确定我的路径效率稍低，因为我们正在探索未知事物，而且我们不知道任何点。

I think I've seen the number of times I find where people say, "I need to know for this strategy," that someone was trying to get me to look at and then say, "is this number in five years, is it going to be 93 or 95?" And it's like, I don't know.

我想我见过很多次人们说，“我需要知道这个策略”，有人试图让我看看，然后说，“这个数字在五年内会是 93 还是 95？”就像，我不知道。

And it doesn't matter either if it's going to be that order of magnitude.

如果是这个数量级也没关系。

Alex Komoroske: It doesn't matter, and we don't have to do that analysis if we believe that the order of magnitude is of that thing.

Alex Komoroske：没关系，如果我们相信数量级就是这样的话，我们就不必进行这种分析。

It'd actually be we had spent all the time to get the illusion of precision, which at great expense, and then it's the people say, "Oh, I'm data-driven.

事实上，我们花了很多时间来获得精确的幻觉，这付出了巨大的代价，然后人们就会说，“哦，我是数据驱动的。

I want to really run the analysis to ground." There's tons of stuff you can't know ahead of time.

我想真正将分析进行到底。”有很多事情你无法提前知道。

So if you're getting a false precision at the beginner, that's a comfort blanket.

因此，如果你在初学者中得到了错误的精确度，那就是一个安慰毯子。

That's just helping you feel like there isn't uncertainty.

这只是让你感觉没有任何不确定性。

There's uncertainty everywhere all the time.

每时每刻都存在着不确定性。

And trying to ignore it by trying to pin it down with fake numbers that you just made up for yourself at great expense is a really bad idea.

试图用你花费巨大代价为自己编造的虚假数字来确定它，从而试图忽视它，这是一个非常糟糕的主意。

And that's why if the ideas are strong enough, things that have a compounding return don't give you, "Oh, we'll either get 93 or 95." It's like, "We'll either get zero or we'll get 1,000." Great.

这就是为什么如果想法足够强大，具有复利回报的事情不会给你“哦，我们要么得到 93，要么得到 95”。就像，“我们要么得到零，要么得到 1,000。”伟大的。

It doesn't really matter if it's 1,000 or 1,001, who cares?

1,000 或 1,001 并不重要，谁在乎呢？

It orders a magnitude larger than the alternative, and so it is better.

它的数量级比替代方案大，因此更好。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's really freeing.

Lenny Rachitsky：这真的很自由。

I noticed again, you were writing something.

我又注意到了，你在写东西。

I'm again curious which you wrote down that you thought was insightful.

我再次很好奇你写下了哪些你认为很有洞察力的内容。

Alex Komoroske: I actually this time I was not writing did something down.

Alex Komoroske：实际上，这次我没有写下来，而是做了一些事情。

I was checking a thing I thought you might say that was going to reference was Tim Urban's, "Happiness is the reality minus expectations." I always get that backwards, but have you heard this frame, that happiness-

我正在检查一件事，我想你可能会说它会参考蒂姆·厄本的，“幸福就是现实减去期望。”我总是把它倒过来，但你听过这个框架，那种幸福-

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's get into it.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我们开始吧。

Yeah, we're not going to get this.

是的，我们不会得到这个。

This is great.

这太棒了。

Alex Komoroske: "Happiness is reality minus expectations," and this is Tim Urban.

亚历克斯·科莫罗斯克（Alex Komoroske）：“幸福就是现实减去期望”，这是蒂姆·厄本。

It was from Wait But Why.

这是来自《Wait But Why》的。

And I think it's a very simple distillation of it, of if you set your expectations super high and it comes in and it's amazing, but it's below it, then it's a net negative.

我认为这是它的一个非常简单的提炼，如果你将你的期望设定得非常高，它就会令人惊奇，但它低于它，那么它就是一个净负数。

So the easiest thing, reality is hard to change.

所以最简单的事情，现实是很难改变的。

It's not impossible.

这并非不可能。

It's hard to change.

很难改变。

Your expectations are super easy.

你的期望非常简单。

So just change your expectations.

所以只要改变你的期望。

Hold it lightly and don't say, "Oh my gosh, this is going to be my kid's birthday.

轻轻握住它，不要说：“天哪，这将是我孩子的生日。

She's going to remember it.

她会记住的。

It's going to be the best birthday that she ever had and we're all it's going to be perfect." Because then when it doesn't go perfect and it starts raining that day, you're like, "Gosh." You get all worked up.

这将是她度过的最棒的生日，我们都会让一切变得完美。”因为当事情进展不顺利并且那天开始下雨时，你会想，“天哪。”你变得很激动。

Just say, "No, I want spend this day in a way that I can look back on and remember fondly." And that will include, yeah, it changed.

只要说：“不，我想以一种让我回首往事并能深情铭记的方式度过这一天。”这将包括，是的，它发生了变化。

Alex Komoroske: One other piece of advice someone gave me that I really like is try to feel the emotion about the story that'll make you feel in 10 years.

Alex Komoroske：有人给我的另一条我非常喜欢的建议是尝试感受故事中的情感，这会让你在 10 年后感受到。

So if it's funny in 10 years, try to see the humor in it now.

所以，如果十年后这件事很有趣，现在就试着看看其中的幽默之处。

And this one in particular was a friend, their newborn would, every time you changed her diaper, would poop.

尤其是这个朋友，每次你给她换尿布时，他们的新生儿都会大便。

That was only...

那只是...

And when they did it, it would often be projectile.

当他们这样做时，通常会是投射物。

And so it was like a trap.

所以这就像一个陷阱。

You change the diaper.

你换尿布。

And it was like, what are you going to do in that situation?

就像，在这种情况下你会怎么做？

And then they're just like, "It's going to be a funny story in a few years, so let's see the humor in it now." Even though, God, I really wish this year-

然后他们就会说，“几年后这将是一个有趣的故事，所以现在让我们看看其中的幽默之处。”尽管，上帝，我真的希望今年——

Alex Komoroske: ...

亚历克斯·科莫罗斯克：...

you're not spraying poop on her.

你没有把粪便喷在她身上。

And I think that that kind of perspective is really, people sometimes hear this as, "Oh, you're saying don't dream big.

我认为这种观点确实是，人们有时会听到这样的话，“哦，你是说不要有远大的梦想。

Don't set high expectations.

不要设定过高的期望。

Don't expect more and be okay with mediocrity." That is not what I'm saying.

不要期望更多，接受平庸。”我不是这个意思。

I'm saying hold those expectations lightly.

我的意思是不要抱有这些期望。

Allow them to change.

允许他们改变。

Be willing to be convinced by different things, and seek something great.

愿意被不同的事物所说服，并寻求伟大的事物。

Seek something that you can be truly proud of and that feel very authentic to yourself if you achieved.

寻找一些让你真正感到自豪的事情，如果你实现了，你会感觉非常真实。

Lenny Rachitsky: Alex, I feel like I could talk to you for hours.

Lenny Rachitsky：Alex，我觉得我可以和你聊几个小时。

I can't believe it's already been almost an hour and a half.

我不敢相信已经过去了将近一个半小时。

So just to wrap things up, is there anything else that you thought would be fun to share or maybe a piece of wisdom you want to leave listeners with before we get to a very exciting lightning round?

那么，总结一下，在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么认为可以分享的有趣的事情或者您想留给听众的智慧吗？

Alex Komoroske: I think we covered it.

Alex Komoroske：我想我们已经讨论过了。

I think we covered a lot of that.

我想我们已经涵盖了很多内容。

And again, we could go on for hours and hours and hours and hours.

再说一次，我们可以继续几个小时、几个小时、几个小时、几个小时。

I could just do a random...

我可以随机做一个...

I can feature The Compendium where I can pull up a random idea, and let's not do that.

我可以在《概要》中提出一个随机的想法，但我们不要这样做。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，太棒了。

Well, Alex, with that, we've reached the very exciting lightning round.

好吧，亚历克斯，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: First question, what are two or three books you've recommended most to other people?

Lenny Rachitsky：第一个问题，您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Alex Komoroske: Origin of Wealth by Eric Beinhocker, which is great.

埃里克·贝因霍克（Eric Beinhocker）的《亚历克斯·科莫罗斯克：财富的起源》，非常棒。

It's about a complexity economics, why the traditional economic model doesn't work, and also why it takes an evolutionary lens on what kinds of business plans work and how companies execute them.

它涉及复杂的经济学，为什么传统的经济模型不起作用，以及为什么需要从进化的角度来看待什么样的商业计划有效以及公司如何执行它们。

That I found my entree into a lot of the systems thinking and I thought it was just absolutely brilliant.

我发现我进入了很多系统思考的领域，我认为这绝对是精彩的。

And the other one is The Elements of Thinking in Systems, which is short, easy to read, very approachable.

另一本是《系统思维的要素》，它很短，易于阅读，非常平易近人。

In fact, if anything, people think of it as not serious enough because it's too easy to read.

事实上，如果说有什么不同的话，那就是人们认为它不够严肃，因为它太容易阅读了。

It's one of those books that when you read at the beginning you'll say, "This sounds right." And then later, years later, if you read it again you'll go, "Oh my God, that was so...

这是一本当你一开始读时你会说“这听起来不错”的书。然后多年后，如果你再次读到它，你会说：“哦天啊，那真是……

I wasn't ready for that yet, but that is totally the way." So she's one of the people who talks about dancing the systems.

我还没准备好，但完全就是这样。”所以她是谈论跳舞系统的人之一。

Let go and dance with the system is one of her lines, and I think it's just a phenomenal book.

放手并与系统共舞是她的台词之一，我认为这只是一本非凡的书。

Lenny Rachitsky: Next question.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：下一个问题。

Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show you really enjoyed?

您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？

Alex Komoroske: For me, I was thinking about this, it's The Green Knight, which I watched I think a few years old.

Alex Komoroske：对我来说，我在想这个，那就是《绿衣骑士》，我觉得它是我几年前看过的。

It's about the Arthurian legend.

这是关于亚瑟王的传说。

It's a challenging movie.

这是一部具有挑战性的电影。

In fact, when I watched it, I was like, "I dislike this.

事实上，当我看到它时，我想，“我不喜欢这个。

I do not find this interesting." And then I couldn't stop thinking about it and it helped me.

我觉得这没什么有趣的。”然后我无法停止思考它，它对我很有帮助。

I think this is one of the reasons I like to write in parable is a parable is open-ended.

我想这就是我喜欢写寓言的原因之一，因为寓言是开放式的。

It encourages and requires the listener to engage into the idea and play with it and see how it affects them and how they affect it.

它鼓励并要求听众参与这个想法并尝试它，看看它如何影响他们以及他们如何影响它。

And so for me, The Green Knight, again, I'm not excited to watch it again, but I found it to be the most impactful movie I've seen in the last couple of years in terms of amount of thinking that it caused me to do afterwards.

所以对我来说，《绿衣骑士》，我不想再看一遍它，但我发现它是过去几年里我看过的最有影响力的电影，就它引发我的思考而言。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, that says a lot.

Lenny Rachitsky：哇，这说明了很多。

Next question, do you have a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really like?

下一个问题，您最近发现有您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？

Alex Komoroske: To me, I think the answer for me is WebSim.

Alex Komoroske：对我来说，我认为 WebSim 是我的答案。

It's the one that I like playing around with a lot.

这是我非常喜欢玩的一个。

And I've said it before, I use Claude 20 times a day.

我之前说过，我每天使用克劳德20次。

I find that it's almost impossible for me to imagine doing work.

我发现我几乎无法想象工作。

I mean of course now I've got to use Strawberry and see how that feels, but yeah.

我的意思是，当然现在我必须使用草莓，看看感觉如何，但是是的。

Lenny Rachitsky: One use case of WebSim that I found really fun that I used with Dylan is if you do Gmail, if you give it gmail.com/someone's name, it just comes up with what their email looks like.

Lenny Rachitsky：我发现与 Dylan 一起使用的 WebSim 的一个非常有趣的用例是，如果你使用 Gmail，如果你给它 gmail.com/某人的名字，它就会显示他们的电子邮件的样子。

And could do it for famous people, like for Patrick Allison or whoever, and it's like, "Wow, that's really good."

可以为名人做这件事，比如帕特里克·艾利森或任何人，就像，“哇，那真的很棒。”

Alex Komoroske: The elements are really good.

Alex Komoroske：这些元素真的很好。

One of the things we played around with is having a thing that generates fake data of arbitrary schemas, and I just write a short backstory of a person and then have it generate data that fits in this fictional user person's world.

我们玩的事情之一是拥有一个可以生成任意模式的虚假数据的东西，我只需写一个人的简短背景故事，然后让它生成适合这个虚构的用户世界的数据。

And it's just amazing the kinds of stuff, the coherence it has with, it's weird and it's very specific to that story, but elements are just so, they're like these little holograms of all this information of humanity is interesting informational package, this little thing.

令人惊奇的是这些东西的种类，它所具有的连贯性，这很奇怪，而且它非常特定于那个故事，但元素就是这样，它们就像所有这些人类信息的小全息图，是有趣的信息包，这个小东西。

And all kinds, it's like a mirror that different things reflect back out of it at you.

各种各样，它就像一面镜子，不同的东西会反射到你身上。

And it's shocking sometimes to see humanity reflected back at you.

有时看到人性反映在你身上是令人震惊的。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's like a zip file of all human knowledge.

Lenny Rachitsky：它就像一个包含所有人类知识的 zip 文件。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

And it's because it's trained on all the things we've written, right?

这是因为它接受了我们编写的所有内容的训练，对吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: All right, two more questions.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，还有两个问题。

You have a favorite life motto that you often come back to find useful in work or in life?

您有一条最喜欢的人生格言，经常回来发现它对工作或生活有用吗？

Alex Komoroske: I guess I've said too, this is cheating, but I said too, the do things that give you energy that you're proud of, and the happiness is reality minus expectations I think are really simple clarifying words to look like.

Alex Komoroske：我想我也说过，这是作弊，但我也说过，做那些能给你带来自豪的能量的事情，幸福就是现实减去期望，我认为这些词看起来真的很简单。

Lenny Rachitsky: All right.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Final question.

最后一个问题。

You can go in one of two directions.

您可以朝两个方向之一走。

One is what's something that you are going to add to this week's Bits and Bobs that you're thinking about right now that we haven't talked about?

一是您将在本周的 Bits and Bobs 中添加哪些您现在正在考虑但我们尚未讨论过的内容？

Or just go to your Compendium and pick a random thing and see what comes up and share.

或者只是转到您的纲要并随机选择一个内容，看看会出现什么并分享。

Alex Komoroske: Okay, so this is the...

Alex Komoroske：好的，这就是......

I'll just read this off.

我就读一下这个。

This is written a year ago.: "We've forgotten a world without aggregators.

这是一年前写的：“我们已经忘记了一个没有聚合器的世界。

Non-aggregator ecosystems make it so participants don't have to fear empowering their overlord, where that you have to worry about each bit of action you're doing, the aggregator is getting it more and more powerful.

非聚合器生态系统使得参与者不必担心赋予他们的霸主权力，你必须担心你正在做的每一个动作，聚合器正在变得越来越强大。

MySpace was the Wild West.

MySpace 是狂野的西部。

Facebook made it so you can't change the CSS, which was better for users, containing some freedom.

Facebook 这样做是为了让你无法更改 CSS，这对用户来说更好，包含一些自由。

Aggregators make sense in the late stage of an era.

聚合器在一个时代的后期才有意义。

At the beginning, they curtail too much exploration."

一开始，他们限制了太多的探索。”

This is written a year ago.: That's just my random reflections.

这是一年前写的。：这只是我的随意反思。

I don't even remember what conversation that came from originally, but of the power of...

我什至不记得最初的对话是什么，但关于……的力量

I am just so obsessed with the idea that we are in the late stage of this current technical paradigm that we're in and so many things we feel like we figured them all out and nothing can be any different, and I don't love this outcome that we're in, the idea of you're...

我只是非常着迷于这样一种想法，即我们正处于当前技术范式的后期阶段，我们感觉很多事情我们都已经弄清楚了，没有什么可以改变，而且我不喜欢我们所处的这种结果，你的想法......

Just one quick framing.

只是一个快速框架。

To me, if you ask somebody on the street to tell you what the canonical piece of software is, the answer they'll give you is something like Instagram, which is to say an app, which I think is a shame because an app is monolithic.

对我来说，如果你问街上的某个人告诉你规范的软件是什么，他们会给你的答案是类似 Instagram 的东西，也就是说是一个应用程序，我认为这是一个耻辱，因为应用程序是单一的。

It's one size fits all.

它是一种适合所有人的尺寸。

It's not decomposable.

它是不可分解的。

It doesn't meaningfully interact with anything else in the broader ecosystem.

它不会与更广泛的生态系统中的其他任何东西进行有意义的交互。

And it's also only allowed to exist if some of the largest companies in the world say it may exist, which is insane to me.

而且只有当世界上一些最大的公司表示它可能存在时，它才被允许存在，这对我来说是疯狂的。

This is written a year ago.: To me, software is alchemy.

这是一年前写的：对我来说，软件就是炼金术。

It's the ability to extend human agency beyond ourselves to create something that can then combine with what others have created in unexpected and unforeseen ways to create this commentary of possibility of human agency.

它是将人类能动性扩展到我们自身之外，创造出一些东西，然后将其与其他人以意想不到和不可预见的方式创造的东西相结合，从而创造出对人类能动性可能性的评论的能力。

And somehow in the past decade, we've become convinced that all of this potential should be squeezed into about a dozen little boxes on your phone.

不知怎的，在过去的十年里，我们已经确信所有这些潜力都应该被压缩到手机上的大约十几个小盒子里。

And now with the power of AI, everyone just is default assuming that what's going to happen is we're all going to be locked inside of a box with a super God AI Clippy.

现在有了人工智能的力量，每个人都默认假设将要发生的事情是我们都会被锁在一个有超级大神人工智能 Clippy 的盒子里。

And the only thing that people disagree about is which Clippy is it going to be?

人们唯一不同意的是它会是哪一个 Clippy？

Whose Clippy is it going to be?

这会是谁的 Clippy 呢？

This is written a year ago.: That to me is bonkers.

这是一年前写的：这对我来说太疯狂了。

I don't want that world at all.

我根本不想要那个世界。

I want a world where we use this magical duct tape to escape the box, to allow software and humans using it to lean into their agency.

我想要一个世界，我们使用这种神奇的胶带来逃离盒子，让软件和使用它的人类能够进入他们的机构。

And I think aggregators are amazing in an environment where you have a safe environment to have all kinds of interesting stuff that can't be fully open-ended because the aggregator can't allow it to escape the possibility of that ecosystem.

我认为聚合器在一个安全的环境中是惊人的，可以拥有各种有趣的东西，这些东西不能完全开放，因为聚合器不能让它逃脱该生态系统的可能性。

And so for me, one of the reasons I'm excited about LLMs being a disruptive technology is I think that it allows us to get out of this monolithic sense of whatever.

所以对我来说，我对法学硕士作为一项颠覆性技术感到兴奋的原因之一是我认为它让我们摆脱了这种单一的感觉。

We're all just beholden to a decreasing number, very powerful organizations, and lean into everybody being able to be creative and collaborative and exercise their agency in a pro-social way.

我们都依赖于数量不断减少、非常强大的组织，并希望每个人都能够发挥创造力和协作性，并以亲社会的方式行使自己的能动性。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

Well, you blew our mind as a final element of this conversation.

好吧，作为这次谈话的最后一个要素，你让我们大吃一惊。

Alex, thank you so much for being here.

亚历克斯，非常感谢你来到这里。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online?

人们可以在哪里在线找到您？

Where do they find stuff you're working on if they want to read more and follow the stuff you're thinking about?

如果他们想阅读更多内容并关注您正在思考的内容，他们在哪里可以找到您正在处理的内容？

And then how can listeners be useful to you?

那么听众如何对你有用呢？

Alex Komoroske: Komoroske.com is where.

Alex Komoroske：Komoroske.com 就在那里。

My husband gives me so much shit for it because it looks like it was designed in the early 2000s, which it was.

我丈夫对它大加赞赏，因为它看起来像是 2000 年代初期设计的，事实也确实如此。

I link to all the different posts there.

我链接到那里的所有不同帖子。

If you click, there's a Google group, but now where you can subscribe to my updates whenever I post in the Bits and Bobs or any medium article, that's a good way of taking touch as I publish stuff.

如果你点击，就会出现一个 Google 群组，但现在只要我在 Bits and Bobs 或任何媒体文章中发帖，你就可以订阅我的更新，这是在我发布内容时保持联系的好方法。

Alex Komoroske: And then the way that Google can be useful to me is I have office hours on my site that are open to anybody to join in.

Alex Komoroske：Google 对我有用的方式是我的网站上有办公时间，任何人都可以加入。

I am continually, they're booked off in a few weeks in advance, but if you find something that resonated with you or that didn't, or you think is interesting or, "Oh, here's a parallel.

我一直在提前几周就预订完了，但如果你发现一些东西与你产生共鸣或没有共鸣，或者你认为有趣，或者，“哦，这是一个相似之处。

I don't know if you've thought of it before," just reach out to me.

我不知道你以前有没有想过，”只要联系我就可以了。

And I love, love, love talking to people, interesting people especially who have life experiences and backgrounds that are different from mine.

我非常非常喜欢与人交谈，有趣的人，尤其是那些有着与我不同的生活经历和背景的人。

At one point, a magician showed up in my office hours and described and said, "Hey, this tactic you're talking about in your Bits and Bobs, that's actually cold reading.

有一次，一位魔术师出现在我的办公时间，描述并说道：“嘿，你在《Bits and Bobs》中谈论的这种策略，实际上是冷读。

That's what psychics use." And I would find all these crazy connections they'd never occurred to me before.

这就是通灵术所使用的。”我会发现所有这些我以前从未想到过的疯狂联系。

And so people just reaching out and sharing ideas and I love.

所以人们只是伸出援手并分享想法，我很喜欢。

Lenny Rachitsky: Alex, you're awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：亚历克斯，你太棒了。

This conversation was exactly what I was hoping it'd be.

这次谈话正是我所希望的。

My brain is buzzing as I expected.

我的大脑如我所料地嗡嗡作响。

Thank you so much for being here.

非常感谢您来到这里。

I'm excited for folks to listen to this and to learn from you.

我很高兴人们能听到这个并向你学习。

Alex Komoroske: Thank you so much for having me.

Alex Komoroske：非常感谢您邀请我。

Bye, everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

再见，大家：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。