An inside look at how the New York Times builds product | Alex Hardiman (CPO, the New York Times)

Alex Hardiman: One thing that's really interesting is that our impact and our business goals are in service of our mission, which is to seek the truth and help people understand the world, not the other way around.

Alex Hardiman：真正有趣的一件事是，我们的影响力和业务目标服务于我们的使命，即寻求真相并帮助人们了解世界，而不是相反。

What it means is that the way that we think about impact is growing a giant subscription business.

这意味着我们考虑影响的方式是发展庞大的订阅业务。

That business exists to strengthen an informed democracy at a time when people are struggling to understand basic facts and struggling to understand each other.

当人们努力了解基本事实并努力相互理解时，这项业务的存在是为了加强知情民主。

That means that impact for us is growing subscribers, but it's also when a deeply reported story triggers an important policy change or a new law.

这意味着对我们的影响是订阅者的增加，但也是当深度报道的故事触发重要的政策变化或新法律时。

Alex Hardiman: When you're a product manager, you're involved again in driving specific metrics like engagement or subscribers, but you're also trying to help stories find their real audience in ways that trigger just this whole different side of mission and purpose driven impact.

Alex Hardiman：当你是一名产品经理时，你会再次参与推动特定指标，例如参与度或订阅者，但你也会尝试帮助故事找到真正的受众，从而触发使命和目的驱动影响的完全不同方面。

I didn't feel that when I was at a place like Facebook.

当我在 Facebook 这样的地方时，我没有这种感觉。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客。

I'm Lenny and my goal here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products.

我是莱尼，我的目标是帮助您更好地构建和种植产品。

Today, my guest is Alex Hardiman.

今天，我的客人是亚历克斯·哈迪曼。

Alex is Chief Product Officer at the New York Times where she leads teams that build the company's news, cooking, games, audio, and advertising products.

Alex 是《纽约时报》的首席产品官，领导团队开发公司的新闻、烹饪、游戏、音频和广告产品。

Prior to this role, she was Chief Product Officer at The Atlantic, and before that, she spent two years at Facebook where she led their news product amongst other things.

在此之前，她曾担任《大西洋月刊》的首席产品官，在此之前，她在 Facebook 工作了两年，领导他们的新闻产品等工作。

As you'll hear in our conversation, Alex has been at the center of the storm so many times, including at Facebook right after the 2016 election.

正如您将在我们的谈话中听到的那样，Alex 多次处于风暴中心，包括 2016 年大选后的 Facebook。

Lenny: Then, at the New York Times right as COVID hit.

莱尼：然后，就在新冠疫情爆发时，在《纽约时报》上。

She hears so many stories and insights about how the New York Times builds product, what it's like for product teams to work with journalists, what's good and bad about working at a company like the New York Times versus FAANG tech type company, and also how they went about acquiring and integrating world.

她听到了很多关于《纽约时报》如何打造产品的故事和见解、产品团队与记者合作的感觉、在《纽约时报》这样的公司与 FAANG 科技型公司工作的好处和坏处，以及他们如何收购和整合世界。

I had such a blast doing this interview and I hope that you enjoy it as much as I did.

我很高兴接受这次采访，我希望你和我一样喜欢它。

With that, I bring you Alex Hardiman.

接下来，我为您带来亚历克斯·哈迪曼。

Today's episode is brought to you by Miro.

今天的节目是米罗为大家带来的。

Creating a product, especially one that your users can't live without is damn hard, but it's made easier by working closely with your colleagues to capture ideas, get feedback, and being able to iterate quickly.

创建一款产品，尤其是用户离不开的产品是非常困难的，但通过与同事密切合作来捕捉想法、获得反馈并能够快速迭代，它会变得更容易。

Lenny: That's where Miro comes in.

莱尼：这就是米罗的用武之地。

Miro is an online visual whiteboard that's designed specifically for teams like yours.

Miro 是一款在线可视白板，专为像您这样的团队而设计。

I actually use Miro to come up with a plan for this very ad.

实际上，我使用 Miro 为这则广告制定了计划。

With Miro, you can build out your product strategy by brainstorming with sticky notes, comments, slide reactions, voting tools, even a timer to keep your team on track.

借助 Miro，您可以通过便签、评论、幻灯片反应、投票工具甚至计时器进行集思广益来制定您的产品策略，以确保您的团队步入正轨。

You can also bring your whole distributed team together around wire frames where anyone can draw their own ideas with pen tool or put their own images or mockups right into the Miro board.

您还可以将整个分布式团队围绕线框聚集在一起，任何人都可以使用钢笔工具绘制自己的想法，或者将自己的图像或模型直接放入 Miro 板中。

With one of Miro's ready made templates, you can go from discovery and research, to product roadmaps, to customer journey flows, to final mocks.

使用 Miro 的现成模板之一，您可以从发现和研究到产品路线图、客户旅程流程，再到最终模拟。

Lenny: Want to see how I use Miro?

莱尼：想看看我如何使用米罗吗？

Head on over to my Miro board at miro.com/lenny to see my most popular podcast episodes, my favorite Miro templates.

前往 miro.com/lenny 上的我的 Miro 板，查看我最受欢迎的播客剧集、我最喜欢的 Miro 模板。

You can also leave feedback on this podcast episode and more.

您还可以留下对此播客剧集等的反馈。

That's M-I-R-O.com/lenny.

那是 M-I-R-O.com/lenny。

This episode is brought to you by Athletic Greens.

本集由 Athletic Greens 为您带来。

I've been hearing about AG1 on basically every podcast that I listened to, like Tim Ferriss and Lex Fridman.

我基本上在我听过的每个播客上都听说过 AG1，比如 Tim Ferriss 和 Lex Fridman。

I finally gave it a shot earlier this year and it has quickly become a core part of my morning routine, especially on days that I need to go deep on writing or record a podcast like this.

今年早些时候，我终于尝试了它，它很快就成为我早晨例行公事的核心部分，尤其是在我需要深入写作或录制这样的播客的日子。

Here's three things that I love about AG1.

以下是我喜欢 AG1 的三点。

One, with a small scoop that dissolves in water, you are absorbing 75 vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and adaptogens.

第一，只需一小勺溶于水的物质，您就可以吸收 75 种维生素、矿物质、益生菌和适应原。

Lenny: I like to think of it as a little safety net for my nutrition in case I've missed something in my diet.

莱尼：我喜欢将其视为我的营养的一个小安全网，以防我在饮食中遗漏了某些东西。

Two, they treat AG1 like a software product.

第二，他们将 AG1 视为软件产品。

Apparently, they're on their 52nd iteration and they're constantly evolving it based on the latest science, research studies, and internal testing that they do.

显然，他们正在进行第 52 次迭代，并且根据最新的科学、研究和内部测试不断改进它。

Three, it's just one easy thing that I can do every single day to take care of myself.

第三，这只是我每天可以做的一件简单的事情来照顾自己。

Right now, it's time to reclaim your health and arm your immune system with convenient daily nutrition.

现在，是时候恢复您的健康并用方便的日常营养来武装您的免疫系统了。

It's just one scoop and a cup of water every day, and that's it.

每天只要一勺一杯水就可以了。

There's no need for a million different pills and supplements to look out for your health.

无需使用一百万种不同的药物和补充剂来照顾您的健康。

Lenny: To make it easy, Athletic Greens is going to give you a free one-year supply of immune supporting Vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase.

Lenny：为了方便起见，Athletic Greens 将在您首次购买时为您提供一年免费的免疫支持维生素 D 和五个免费旅行包。

All you have to do is visit athleticgreens.com/lenny.

您所要做的就是访问 sportsgreens.com/lenny。

Again, that's athleticgreens.com/lenny.

再说一次，那就是athletinggreens.com/lenny。

Take ownership over your health and pick up the ultimate daily nutritional insurance.

掌控您的健康并购买终极每日营养保险。

Alex, thank you for being here.

亚历克斯，谢谢你来到这里。

Welcome to the podcast.

欢迎来到播客。

Alex Hardiman: Thanks so much, Lenny.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：非常感谢，莱尼。

It's really awesome to be here with you.

和你在一起真是太棒了。

Lenny: What's interesting is I think you may be the first product leader on this podcast who doesn't work at a big tech FAANG startup, and so I'm really excited to just dig into see what it's like to build product at a company like the New York Times.

Lenny：有趣的是，我认为你可能是这个播客中第一位不在大型科技 FAANG 初创公司工作的产品负责人，所以我真的很高兴能深入了解在《纽约时报》这样的公司构建产品是什么样的。

Alex Hardiman: Thank you.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：谢谢。

No, no, that sounds awesome.

不，不，这听起来很棒。

Let's dive right in.

让我们开始吧。

Lenny: Okay, before we dive in, I'd love to get a little bit of background on just your career.

莱尼：好的，在我们深入讨论之前，我想先了解一下您的职业背景。

I'm curious, what was your career path to becoming the chief product officer at the New York Times?

我很好奇，您成为《纽约时报》首席产品官的职业道路是怎样的？

Alex Hardiman: Thanks for asking.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：谢谢你的提问。

I've definitely spent most of my career right at the intersection of journalism and tech.

我职业生涯的大部分时间肯定是在新闻业和科技的交叉领域度过的。

I think in hindsight, if you were to ask my family, they probably wouldn't be that surprised, even though for me I was just rolling with it and following what felt like a really interesting set of problems to solve.

我想事后看来，如果你问我的家人，他们可能不会那么惊讶，尽管对我来说，我只是顺其自然，并遵循一系列感觉非常有趣的问题来解决。

But when I just look at my family, there is a ton of journalism in our DNA.

但当我看看我的家人时，我们的 DNA 里就有大量的新闻报道。

My grandfather was a news anchor on the West Coast and I really revered him.

我的祖父是西海岸的一名新闻主播，我非常尊敬他。

My great-grandmother, she was pretty amazing.

我的曾祖母，她真是太了不起了。

She actually started one of the first TV stations in the Midwest back in the '50s when it was still pioneering territory.

事实上，她早在上世纪 50 年代就创办了中西部最早的电视台之一，当时该地区仍处于开拓领域。

Alex Hardiman: For me, one of my first, the dream for me was to try to find a way to build things in the new space.

Alex Hardiman：对我来说，我的第一个梦想就是尝试找到一种在新空间中构建事物的方法。

That's how I first ended up at The New York Times.

这就是我第一次在《纽约时报》工作的原因。

I've had two stints at The New York Times.

我曾在《纽约时报》工作过两次。

My first stint was for a decade, from 2000 to 2016, and it was during a really interesting time of pretty big transformation.

我的第一次工作是从 2000 年到 2016 年的十年，那是一个非常有趣的重大转变时期。

There's so much to talk about within that decade, but I would say there are two really big things that happened in that moment.

在那十年里有很多值得谈论的事情，但我想说那一刻发生了两件非常大的事情。

The first was really trying to work with the company to shift from being a print first product into a mobile first product.

第一个是真正尝试与公司合作，从打印优先产品转变为移动优先产品。

If you go back to 2006 and you think about it, the Times had no mobile presence whatsoever.

如果你回到 2006 年，仔细想想，《纽约时报》根本没有任何移动版面。

Alex Hardiman: Even the iPhone 2G and the App Store didn't come out I think until like 2008.

Alex Hardiman：我想直到 2008 年，iPhone 2G 和 App Store 才问世。

We just really started investing in small mobile use cases, first on the margins and then more and more aggressively until we were just leading with mobile in everything that we did.

我们才真正开始投资小型移动用例，首先是在边缘，然后越来越积极，直到我们在我们所做的一切中都在移动领域处于领先地位。

New journalism formats, new product features, new revenue opportunities, that type of thing.

新的新闻形式、新的产品功能、新的收入机会等等。

Then, the second big thing that marked my journey at The New York Times was the shift to a direct to consumer subscription model.

然后，标志着我在《纽约时报》之旅的第二件大事是转向直接面向消费者的订阅模式。

This was back in 2011, and there was just a lot of skepticism, including from people at The New York Times, about whether or not people would pay for quality journalism.

那是在 2011 年，当时有很多人（包括《纽约时报》的人士）对人们是否愿意为高质量的新闻付费表示怀疑。

Alex Hardiman: We brought in consultants and they said, "Maybe over the course of history it'll get to one million subscribers, if you're lucky." It felt like a really big nervous at the time.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼（Alex Hardiman）：我们聘请了顾问，他们说：“如果幸运的话，也许在历史的进程中它会达到一百万订户。”当时感觉真的很紧张。

But thank goodness it helped make a market for paid journalism, that has really helped a lot of news organizations find new ways to support quality coverage.

但谢天谢地，它帮助建立了付费新闻市场，这确实帮助许多新闻机构找到了支持高质量报道的新方法。

But after a decade I did what I think a lot of people did, was you look around and you say, "I love what I do, but I would love to go learn how to do product in the context of a product led digital first company." That's when I went to Facebook and I left in 2016.

但十年后，我做了我认为很多人都做过的事情，你环顾四周，然后说：“我喜欢我所做的事情，但我很乐意去学习如何在以产品为主导的数字第一公司的背景下做产品。”就在那时我加入了 Facebook，并于 2016 年离开了。

Alex Hardiman: The timing is actually pretty important in terms of my experience at Facebook, because when I first joined Facebook, I totally left the media space.

Alex Hardiman：就我在 Facebook 的经历而言，时机实际上非常重要，因为当我第一次加入 Facebook 时，我完全离开了媒体空间。

I was focused on building out a team that was really trying to help micro sellers in markets like India and other parts of APAC, who were coming online for the first time in really low bandwidth areas, and just wanted to sell their goods through social commerce.

我专注于建立一个团队，真正努力帮助印度和亚太地区其他地区等市场的微型卖家，这些卖家是第一次在带宽非常低的地区上线，只是想通过社交商务销售他们的商品。

Really looking at what WhatsApp and Line and other regional competitors were doing.

真正关注 WhatsApp 和 Line 以及其他区域竞争对手在做什么。

We were focused on business messaging and the interoperability of the Facebook apps from more of a small business perspective.

我们更多地从小型企业的角度关注业务消息传递和 Facebook 应用程序的互操作性。

It was really awesome work.

这真是太棒了。

Alex Hardiman: Then, the 2016 presidential election happened.

Alex Hardiman：然后，2016 年总统选举发生了。

I had only been there for a couple of months and as has been discussed very widely and reported widely, it was a wild time where there was just so much reckoning around misinformation, disinformation, election integrity, platform responsibility.

我只在那里呆了几个月，正如人们广泛讨论和广泛报道的那样，那是一个疯狂的时期，围绕错误信息、虚假信息、选举诚信、平台责任有太多的考虑。

I went over very quickly to help out on the news front where I led the product and engineering teams and it was really hard, really interesting work.

我很快就去负责新闻前沿的工作，领导产品和工程团队，这是一项非常艰苦、非常有趣的工作。

I did that for a couple of years, decided-

我这样做了几年，决定——

Lenny: I'm curious.

莱尼：我很好奇。

Okay.

好的。

Wait, you were leading the news product at Facebook during the election?

等等，你在选举期间领导 Facebook 的新闻产品？

Lenny: Right after the election, after everyone was coming after Facebook trying to tear it down?

莱尼：选举结束后，所有人都追随 Facebook 试图摧毁它之后？

Alex Hardiman: I joined in early 2017 on that effort.

Alex Hardiman：我于 2017 年初加入了这项工作。

The election was November, 2016.

选举时间为 2016 年 11 月。

Lenny: Oh, my God.

莱尼：噢，天哪。

Before you move on, just what was that like?

在你继续之前，那是什么样的？

I don't know how one can describe that experience, but what do you think about when you think back to that time?

我不知道该如何形容那段经历，但当你回想起那段时光时，你会想到什么？

Alex Hardiman: I think about wartime product management, right?

Alex Hardiman：我想到了战时产品管理，对吧？

You're coming in, and I think there was ...

你进来了，我想有...

What I appreciated about that time inside of Facebook was that there was just this incredible humility that was needed to really understand and first diagnose what was actually happening on the platform, and the approach to content on Facebook historically it was very binary.

我对 Facebook 内部那段时光的欣赏是，需要这种令人难以置信的谦逊，才能真正理解并首先诊断平台上实际发生的事情，而 Facebook 上的内容方法历史上是非常二元的。

You basically had content from friends and family and then you had public contents.

你基本上有来自朋友和家人的内容，然后你有公共内容。

Public content could come from anywhere.

公共内容可以来自任何地方。

It could come from a reputable news organization or it could come from my younger brother posting something and declaring it to be true.

它可能来自一个信誉良好的新闻机构，也可能来自我弟弟发布的一些内容并声明其属实。

Alex Hardiman: What we really tried to do very quickly was try to unpack the categories of public content to say that there actually is something that is factually accurate information, and that requires a certain craft from the journalistic trade.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：我们真正想做的就是尝试解开公共内容的类别，表明确实存在一些事实上准确的信息，这需要新闻行业的某种技巧。

There are ways to really look at what is trusted information, how you make that a little bit more essential and visible to people on the platform, while then reducing things that are at best dubious or at worse truly misleading propaganda.

有很多方法可以真正审视什么是可信信息，如何让这些信息对平台上的人们来说更加重要和可见，同时减少那些充其量是可疑的，或者更糟糕的是真正误导性宣传的东西。

It was really fascinating and really hard just because the platform hadn't been built to think about classification of coverage in that way.

这真的很有趣，也很困难，因为该平台的构建并不是为了以这种方式考虑覆盖范围的分类。

Alex Hardiman: Let alone to have the right goals and responsibilities and incentives.

Alex Hardiman：更不用说拥有正确的目标、责任和激励措施了。

There was just a ton of work to figure out how to make the platform far safer and far more informative after, I would say, a pretty intense election cycle.

我想说，在经历了一个相当激烈的选举周期之后，我们还有大量的工作来弄清楚如何使该平台更加安全、信息更加丰富。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

I was going to ask you about this later, but I feel like you're drawn towards just crazy, wild and crazy center of the storm roles.

我本来打算稍后问你这个问题，但我觉得你被疯狂、狂野和疯狂的风暴中心角色所吸引。

I guess that one you didn't expect necessarily to become that.

我猜你没想到一定会变成这样。

I imagine The New York Times has a lot of that, but maybe a quick question there.

我想纽约时报有很多这样的内容，但也许有一个简单的问题。

What have you learned about just living in a world of just constant chaos and stress and urgency, endless urgency?

生活在一个充满持续的混乱、压力和紧迫感的世界里，你学到了什么？

Alex Hardiman: I would say, if you did ask my family and my husband, he would say that I'm always attracted to the more chaotic problems.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：我想说，如果你问我的家人和我的丈夫，他会说我总是被更混乱的问题所吸引。

I just actually think that that's where product people thrive.

我实际上认为这就是产品人员蓬勃发展的地方。

The idea of being able to take all of these crazy inputs, trying to create a very structured model to figure out, "Okay, what is true?

能够接受所有这些疯狂的输入，试图创建一个非常结构化的模型来弄清楚，“好吧，什么是真的？

Where do we have conviction?

我们的信念在哪里？

Where do we have questions?

我们哪里有疑问？

What are the most important problems to solve?

最需要解决的问题是什么？

How do you prioritize?

你如何确定优先顺序？

How do you get a team rallied around a shared context in one single goal?

如何让团队围绕一个共同的背景团结起来实现一个目标？

These are actually the conditions where product manager, I think, thrive.

我认为，这些实际上是产品经理蓬勃发展的条件。

Alex Hardiman: For me, just having been in the journalism space for about two decades now, it's just been or the tech space around news, it's just been a constant set of upheaval and transformation.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼（Alex Hardiman）：对我来说，进入新闻领域已经有大约二十年了，新闻领域的科技领域一直在发生着一系列持续的剧变和变革。

Some things within our control, some things entirely outside of our control, and so I love it.

有些事情在我们的控制范围之内，有些事情完全超出我们的控制范围，所以我喜欢它。

For me, there's nothing else I'd rather be doing than trying to solve these problems in the world at scale.

对我来说，没有什么比尝试大规模解决世界上的这些问题更愿意做的了。

But it does take a certain amount of just grit and resilience, and the ability to really focus on the most important problems in a given moment.

但这确实需要一定的勇气和韧性，以及在特定时刻真正专注于最重要问题的能力。

Also, the ability to let other things slide when you have to.

此外，在必要时能够让其他事情顺其自然。

Alex Hardiman: But again, I feel like these are core product skills that we look for in terms of leadership and grit, and the ability to drive through really, really tough problems that there's no playbook for, nobody has ever really done before.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：但是，我觉得这些是我们在领导力和勇气方面寻找的核心产品技能，以及解决非常非常棘手的问题的能力，这些问题没有剧本，以前没有人真正做到过。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

You said PMs thrive in this.

你说 PM 在这方面蓬勃发展。

I think some do.

我想有些人会。

Some are like, "No, leave me out of that."

有些人会说：“不，别管我了。”

Lenny: There's a metaphor I like to use when I give PM's advice on where to work within a company, which is there's like the Eye of Sauron, which is the number one most important thing to the CEO at that time.

Lenny：当我给 PM 关于公司内部工作地点的建议时，我喜欢用一个比喻，那就是就像索伦之眼，这对当时的 CEO 来说是最重要的。

My advice is often don't avoid that thing, usually, but work maybe to the side of that because you don't want to work on something that doesn't matter, that's like over in the shire land.

我的建议是，通常不要回避那件事，但也许可以在这方面工作，因为你不想做一些无关紧要的事情，比如在郡的土地上。

You want to be something that matters but not maybe the most important thing.

你想成为重要的人，但也许不是最重要的人。

I feel like you're the opposite.

我感觉你是相反的。

You're like, "Where's the Eye of Sauron focused?

你会想，“索伦之眼的焦点在哪里？

I'm going to go there and build stuff." That's pretty awesome.

我要去那里建造一些东西。”这真是太棒了。

Alex Hardiman: Awesome, sometimes, I'm sure there are moments too where it would be nice to chill, but I am drawn to those types of problems for sure.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼（Alex Hardiman）：太棒了，有时候，我确信有些时候放松一下会很好，但我肯定会被这些类型的问题所吸引。

This feels like therapy, Lenny.

这感觉就像一种治疗，莱尼。

I'm into it.

我很喜欢。

Lenny: Okay, great.

莱尼：好的，太好了。

That's the end of that one.

那件事就这样结束了。

I'll let you finish your career overview and then-

我会让你完成你的职业概述，然后-

Alex Hardiman: I feel like we're almost at present, which is I found that there was so much incredible experience that I was able to soak up and lean at a place like Facebook.

Alex Hardiman：我觉得我们几乎就在眼前，我发现有很多令人难以置信的经历，我能够在 Facebook 这样的地方吸收和依靠。

For me, I really wanted to figure out how to apply that back into organizations that just had more of a classic journalistic mission and purpose, so I went to the Atlantic for a year.

对我来说，我真的想弄清楚如何将其应用到那些只有更多经典新闻使命和目的的组织中，所以我去了大西洋月刊。

They had just been purchased by the Emerson Collective, so it was a really fun moment of just investment and expansion and ambition.

他们刚刚被艾默生集体收购，所以这是一个非常有趣的时刻，只是投资、扩张和雄心勃勃。

We launched their consumer business.

我们推出了他们的消费者业务。

Then, I came back to The New York Times in late 2019, right before the pandemic, and I've been there ever since.

然后，我在 2019 年底，也就是大流行之前，回到了《纽约时报》，从那时起我就一直在那里。

Lenny: Oh my, just your timing is impeccable every time.

莱尼：天啊，只是你每次的时机都无可挑剔。

Lenny: I was doing some research on you before this chat and when you came back to The New York Times, there's all these stories about how big of a deal it was.

莱尼：在这次谈话之前，我对你做了一些研究，当你回到《纽约时报》时，所有这些故事都表明这件事有多么重要。

Returns to The New York Times.

返回《纽约时报》。

That must have been something coming back, because you're there for 10 years initially, and then you came back.

那肯定是有什么东西回来了，因为你最初在那里待了十年，然后你又回来了。

What was that experience like just coming back to something like that after being away?

离开之后又回到这样的地方是什么感觉？

Alex Hardiman: I felt really lucky.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：我感到非常幸运。

When I left The New York Times back in 2016, it was on really, really good terms.

当我 2016 年离开《纽约时报》时，双方的关系非常非常好。

It almost felt as like, I'm going on an externship and I really hope that one day I'll be able to come back and just do my job better.

感觉就像是，我要去实习，我真的希望有一天我能够回来并更好地完成我的工作。

Because I do think there's real value in being able to do product in a bunch of different contexts.

因为我确实认为能够在许多不同的环境中开发产品具有真正的价值。

You're just so much better at pattern recognition, learning how to solve a diversity of problems, learning to work through things.

你在模式识别、学习如何解决各种问题、学习解决问题方面表现得更好。

I had a lot of great support when I left, which was really important.

当我离开时，我得到了很多大力支持，这非常重要。

I don't think everyone necessarily has the privilege of that support when they exit a company.

我不认为每个人在退出公司时都一定有幸获得这种支持。

When I came back, it was just a real moment of excitement.

当我回来时，这真是一个激动人心的时刻。

My interview process, I joked with my boss at the time.

我的面试过程，我当时和老板开玩笑。

But it did actually feel more like therapy.

但实际上感觉更像是治疗。

Alex Hardiman: When you've worked with people for a decade before and you go in, the conversation isn't the normal list of interview questions.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼（Alex Hardiman）：当你在十年前与人们共事过并且进入时，谈话并不是正常的面试问题列表。

It's like, "Okay, here's what type of leader you were a couple of years ago.

就像是，“好吧，这就是几年前你是哪种类型的领导者。

Here are the conditions on the ground now, how do you feel about X?

以下是目前的情况，您对 X 的感觉如何？

How do you feel about Y?

你对Y感觉如何？

Are you still passionate about solving this?

您仍然热衷于解决这个问题吗？

What else have you learned that's going to make you better?" It was wonderful.

你还学到了什么能让你变得更好的东西？”这太棒了。

It was one of the best interview processes because you're talking to a bunch of people who knew what you were like when you were leading as a person at a different point in your career and they're pushing you to be better.

这是最好的面试过程之一，因为你正在和一群人交谈，他们知道你在职业生涯的不同阶段作为一个人领导时是什么样的，他们正在推动你变得更好。

I felt like I got the best chance of a lifetime to come back and try to do my job better than I had been able to do it before, and that's pretty cool.

我觉得我得到了一生中最好的机会回来并尝试比以前做得更好，这非常酷。

Lenny: You've been there three years at this point?

莱尼：此时你已经在那里三年了？

Alex Hardiman: Yeah, three years on Halloween, so coming up very soon.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：是的，三年前的万圣节，所以很快就会到来。

Lenny: Oh, wow.

莱尼：哦，哇。

That's three days from now when we're recording.

距离我们录音的时间已经过去了三天。

I wonder when this comes out.

我想知道这什么时候出来。

I'm curious, at a company like New York Times, which is, I imagine people think when they think product, they think it's the newspaper.

我很好奇，在像《纽约时报》这样的公司，我想人们在想到产品时就会想到报纸。

At Airbnb we have this challenge where when we talk to hosts, "Here's the product." You're like, "What is your product?

在 Airbnb，我们面临这样的挑战：当我们与房东交谈时，“这就是产品。”你会说，“你的产品是什么？

Is it our homes?" You have to help people understand, "Okay, when we talk product, we mean the website and app." What do you think of the product at The New York Times?

这是我们的家吗？”你必须帮助人们理解，“好吧，当我们谈论产品时，我们指的是网站和应用程序。”你如何看待《纽约时报》的产品？

Then, is it a challenge to help people understand, here's what the product team does?

那么，帮助人们理解产品团队的工作是一个挑战吗？

Alex Hardiman: It's a really good question.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：这是一个非常好的问题。

At the most basic level, I would say that our product is our journalism, which we then marry with a really compelling and useful user experience, in a way that helps people really act on our journalism so that they can understand and engage with the world around them.

在最基本的层面上，我想说我们的产品就是我们的新闻业，然后我们将其与真正引人注目且有用的用户体验结合起来，以帮助人们真正按照我们的新闻业采取行动，以便他们能够理解并与周围的世界互动。

For about 150 years, our product was pretty simple.

大约 150 年来，我们的产品非常简单。

It was a printed newspaper, which is still very beloved today, but the UX of the newspaper was, it was a predictable structure.

这是一份印刷报纸，至今仍然很受欢迎，但报纸的用户体验是，它是一个可预测的结构。

It was a very finite amount of news.

这是非常有限的新闻。

It was time bound, which I think is a really lovely thing in terms of setting expectation.

这是有时间限制的，我认为就设定期望而言，这是一件非常可爱的事情。

It also has the packaging of the newspaper just such serendipity, where you can move across news, opinion, culture, games.

它还具有报纸的包装，正是这样的机缘巧合，您可以在其中浏览新闻、观点、文化、游戏。

Alex Hardiman: It's a really great bounded product in and of itself.

Alex Hardiman：它本身就是一个非常棒的有限产品。

But about 25 years ago, when we started shifting over to digital, the web, and mobile, the world just fully opened up in a way.

但大约 25 年前，当我们开始转向数字、网络和移动时，世界在某种程度上完全开放了。

We just saw this really tremendous disaggregation and distribution of our journalism.

我们刚刚看到我们的新闻报道发生了巨大的分解和分布。

We really tried to meet the moment by building a wide array of products in the news space to extend our reach.

我们确实尝试通过在新闻领域构建广泛的产品来扩大我们的影响力来迎接这一时刻。

Our products then, our digital products were our website, our apps, newsletters, we dabbled with a lot in the VR/AR space early on.

当时我们的产品，我们的数字产品是我们的网站、我们的应用程序、时事通讯，我们很早就涉足了 VR/AR 领域。

That was, I would say, the first big extension of our products.

我想说，这是我们产品的第一次大规模扩展。

When we then pivoted though to a subscription model, it was a really interesting moment where we actually had to take more of a destination first approach.

当我们转向订阅模式时，这是一个非常有趣的时刻，我们实际上必须采取更多的目的地优先方法。

Alex Hardiman: It was almost like the beginning of us rebundling all of what we did, but on our own destination again, in digital destination.

Alex Hardiman：这几乎就像我们重新整合我们所做的所有事情的开始，但又回到了我们自己的目的地，在数字目的地。

Because in order to build a really thriving subscription business, you really need a direct relationship with your customer as opposed to just relying on platforms to really distribute your coverage.

因为为了建立真正蓬勃发展的订阅业务，您确实需要与客户建立直接关系，而不是仅仅依靠平台来真正分发您的覆盖范围。

That's where, again, we really started rebundling the breadth and depth of value that people once found in the Sunday newspaper at digital scale.

这就是我们真正开始重新整合人们曾经在数字规模的周日报纸中发现的价值的广度和深度的地方。

Now, today, our product bundle includes even so much more than news, which I hope we'll talk about a little bit more later.

现在，今天，我们的产品包包含的内容甚至远不止新闻，我希望我们稍后再讨论更多内容。

We've really scaled our products in a bunch of different categories where we feel like we can really help people understand and engage with the world.

我们确实将我们的产品扩展到了许多不同的类别，我们认为我们可以真正帮助人们了解世界并与世界互动。

Alex Hardiman: We have cooking, we have games, we have sports, we have Wirecutter, which is a great innovation surface.

Alex Hardiman：我们有烹饪，我们有游戏，我们有运动，我们有 Wirecutter，这是一个伟大的创新表面。

We're playing with a new audio app all around audio journalism.

我们正在开发一款围绕音频新闻的新音频应用程序。

We have now six fully fledged different product destinations.

我们现在有六个成熟的不同产品目的地。

The next thing for us to do is to really figure out how to put those together into a bundle that really becomes the essential subscription for any curious English speaking person around the world, who really wants to know what's happening and wants to be able to, again, act and engage and make great decisions based on the products that we build.

我们接下来要做的事情是真正弄清楚如何将这些内容整合到一个捆绑包中，这真正成为世界各地任何好奇的英语人士的基本订阅，他们真正想知道正在发生的事情，并希望能够再次根据我们构建的产品采取行动、参与并做出重大决策。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

It sounds like the strategy is a subscription bundle where you just keep bundling awesome stuff into this bundle.

听起来这个策略是一个订阅捆绑包，你只需不断地将很棒的东西捆绑到这个捆绑包中。

It's an obvious thing everyone has, whether you want cooking or games or The New York Times online.

这是每个人都拥有的显而易见的东西，无论您想要烹饪、游戏还是《纽约时报》在线版。

Alex Hardiman: I think that's right.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：我认为这是对的。

We did this pretty great exercise and strategy projects over the last year.

去年我们做了非常出色的练习和战略项目。

We took a look and we said, "What is the largest addressable market where The New York Times can be truly valuable every single day to a group of people?" What we found was that there are about 135 million people around the world we believe are willing to pay for the type of high quality journalism based products that the New York Times produces, in the categories of news, gameplay, cooking and recipes, sports, which is why we acquired the athletic shopping recommendations and audio.

我们看了看，然后说：“《纽约时报》每天对一群人来说真正有价值的最大潜在市场是什么？”我们发现，我们相信全世界大约有 1.35 亿人愿意为《纽约时报》制作的高质量新闻产品付费，这些产品涉及新闻、游戏玩法、烹饪和食谱、体育等类别，这就是我们获取运动购物推荐和音频的原因。

In order for us to really capture as much of that audience and really serve them well, there are really three things that we need to do to make that essential subscription work.

为了让我们真正吸引尽可能多的受众并真正为他们提供良好的服务，我们实际上需要做三件事来使这一基本订阅发挥作用。

Alex Hardiman: The first is we absolutely need to have the best news destination in the world.

Alex Hardiman：首先，我们绝对需要拥有世界上最好的新闻目的地。

When you think about the New York Times, we actually have the solar system metaphor where for us news is the sun in the sense that it's why we exist.

当你想到《纽约时报》时，我们实际上有太阳系的比喻，对我们来说，新闻就是太阳，因为它是我们存在的原因。

It is what gives us our brand heritage and reputation.

它赋予了我们品牌传统和声誉。

It's what instills trust.

这就是灌输信任的原因。

It's also where we just have the largest audience when you think about a funnel for our portfolio, and it's also where we just have the most amount of high quality coverage.

当你考虑我们的投资组合漏斗时，这也是我们拥有最多受众的地方，也是我们拥有最多高质量报道的地方。

But then that sun helps you give birth to other satellite planets or products that have a lot of the same DNA.

但随后太阳会帮助你诞生其他具有许多相同 DNA 的卫星行星或产品。

Again, like great trusted journalism, great journalists who just have real expertise.

再说一次，就像值得信赖的伟大新闻业一样，伟大的记者拥有真正的专业知识。

Alex Hardiman: A great product experience that allows you to really unlock that value distribution reach, and the other ingredients that you would need for successful products to work.

Alex Hardiman：出色的产品体验，可以让您真正释放价值分配范围，以及成功产品发挥作用所需的其他要素。

We're really focused on building out beyond news products that really help people engage with their passions and life needs that go beyond news.

我们真正专注于打造超越新闻的产品，真正帮助人们激发新闻之外的激情和生活需求。

Then, the third thing is what you're describing as the bundle, how do we create a connected family of products that puts all of those things together so that wherever you come into the New York Times, to news or maybe through Wordle, you know that you're having the best experience within that category.

然后，第三件事就是你所描述的捆绑包，我们如何创建一个相互连接的产品系列，将所有这些东西组合在一起，以便无论你在哪里进入《纽约时报》、新闻或通过 Wordle，你都知道你正在获得该类别中的最佳体验。

Alex Hardiman: But then you also can quickly experience and discover everything else that we offer.

Alex Hardiman：但是您也可以快速体验和发现我们提供的其他一切。

That's the strategy and the vision, and it's a huge ambition.

这就是战略和愿景，这是一个巨大的抱负。

We want to get to 15 million subscribers by 2027.

我们希望到 2027 年订阅者数量达到 1500 万。

We're just over 9 million today, and I really think we can do it.

今天我们的人口刚刚超过 900 万，我真的认为我们可以做到。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I actually wanted to chat about goals and how you think about success as a product team.

我实际上想谈谈目标以及您如何看待产品团队的成功。

I imagine the north star metric is what you just said, which is subscribers.

我想北极星指标就是你刚才所说的，即订阅者。

If that's true, what other goals do you have across teams?

如果这是真的，您在团队中还有哪些其他目标？

Maybe even further, I'm packing a lot of questions into one question, but I'm curious just how your product team looks.

也许更进一步，我将很多问题打包成一个问题，但我很好奇你们的产品团队是什么样的。

How many PMs do you have?

您有多少位 PM？

Roughly, how do you structure the teams?

粗略地说，您如何构建团队？

Then, roughly, what kind of goals do they all have to try and imagine the product team at New York Times?

那么，大致来说，他们都要尝试想象《纽约时报》的产品团队有什么样的目标呢？

Alex Hardiman: Let's start with structure.

Alex Hardiman：让我们从结构开始。

First, I love this question talking about my team because I love hyping them.

首先，我喜欢这个谈论我的团队的问题，因为我喜欢炒作他们。

They're amazing, and our success is truly only as good as our people.

他们太棒了，我们的成功真正取决于我们的员工。

Yeah, it is so true.

是的，确实如此。

For us, when we think about our org structure, the way to set that up so that our people can really do their best work is that we have two axis.

对我们来说，当我们考虑我们的组织结构时，建立组织结构以便我们的员工能够真正做到最好的工作的方法是我们有两个轴。

We have functions and then we have missions.

我们有职能，然后有使命。

I oversee two functions, which is the functions of product and design.

我负责监督两个职能，即产品职能和设计职能。

The functions themselves, it's normal of what you would find in terms of functional responsibilities.

就职能本身而言，就职能职责而言，这是正常的。

We focus on standards of craft and excellence, career growth, career frameworks, equitable promotion processes, community of practices, skill development, all of that.

我们专注于工艺和卓越标准、职业发展、职业框架、公平的晋升流程、实践社区、技能发展等等。

Alex Hardiman: But missions is where a lot of the work happens.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：但是任务是很多工作发生的地方。

These are cross-functional teams, very similar to what we had at a place like Facebook.

这些是跨职能团队，与我们在 Facebook 等地方的团队非常相似。

These cross-functional teams are led by usually a general manager, a product leader, or an engineering leader.

这些跨职能团队通常由总经理、产品负责人或工程负责人领导。

They're all pursuing the same high level goals and objectives.

他们都追求相同的高水平目标。

Cross-functional missions at the Times, it can include a lot of the same skill sets that you would find at a tech company, PMs, engineers, designers, data scientists, researchers, product marketers.

在《纽约时报》的跨职能任务中，它可以包括许多与科技公司相同的技能：产品经理、工程师、设计师、数据科学家、研究人员、产品营销人员。

But the big difference is we also have editors, if it's a product space that directly shapes our journalism.

但最大的区别是，如果这是一个直接塑造我们新闻业的产品空间，我们也有编辑。

I can talk more about that because it's a pretty interesting differentiating factor.

我可以更多地谈论这一点，因为这是一个非常有趣的差异化因素。

Lenny: Yeah, that's super interesting.

莱尼：是的，这非常有趣。

There's a journalist within cross-functional product teams?

跨职能产品团队中有记者吗？

Alex Hardiman: Exactly.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：没错。

But we have three different types of missions.

但我们有三种不同类型的任务。

We have consumer missions, we have monetization missions, and we have platform missions.

我们有消费者使命，我们有货币化使命，我们有平台使命。

Editors are embedded within consumer missions.

编辑们融入消费者使命之中。

Those are the missions that I oversee, where we're focused on creating really great products, again, in categories like news, cooking, games, audio, et cetera.

这些是我负责监督的任务，我们再次专注于创造真正出色的产品，涉及新闻、烹饪、游戏、音频等类别。

That is where having editors involved, particularly like editors who are very product minded, it brings in the best of their expertise and marries it with a lot of the normal signal that you look for in terms of data research and other insights.

这就是让编辑参与的地方，特别是像那些非常注重产品的编辑，它可以带来他们最好的专业知识，并将其与您在数据研究和其他见解方面寻找的许多正常信号结合起来。

When you're trying to make sure that you understand a consumer problem and that you're really finding the best creative solution for it.

当您试图确保您了解消费者问题并且确实找到了最佳的创意解决方案时。

Alex Hardiman: It is really cool.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：这真的很酷。

It's one of the, I think, most gratifying parts of working at a news organization like the Times.

我认为，这是在《纽约时报》这样的新闻机构工作最令人满足的部分之一。

But if you work on a different mission, like a monetization mission, we have two really big ones.

但如果你从事不同的任务，比如货币化任务，我们有两个非常大的任务。

One is subscriber growth, the other one that's also really important is digital advertising.

一是用户增长，另一个也非常重要的是数字广告。

They build centralized commercial products that we can then scale across all of the products in our bundle.

他们构建集中式商业产品，然后我们可以在捆绑包中的所有产品中进行扩展。

The subscriber growth team, for instance, they look at making sure that we have really great account ID management for subscribers.

例如，订阅者增长团队致力于确保我们为订阅者提供真正出色的帐户 ID 管理。

If you're buying a subscription through games or through news.

如果您通过游戏或新闻购买订阅。

Or, if you're on the digital advertising team, you're trying to make sure that we have a first party data program that's really privacy safe, that works as well in cooking as it does in the news space.

或者，如果您在数字广告团队中，您会试图确保我们拥有真正隐私安全的第一方数据程序，该程序在烹饪中和在新闻领域中一样有效。

Alex Hardiman: Then, there's a totally different third bucket of mission that we have, which is all of our platform teams.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：然后，我们有一个完全不同的第三个任务，那就是我们所有的平台团队。

This is everything from monetization platforms like our commerce engine, which is so important, because we're a subscription business, to data platforms where you might have our ML platform or experimentation tooling, to just basic infrastructure.

这包括从像我们的商业引擎这样的货币化平台（这非常重要，因为我们是一家订阅业务），到您可能拥有我们的机器学习平台或实验工具的数据平台，再到基本的基础设施。

Those are shared across the bundle, which just really helps make it so much easier, more efficient for really engineers to ship code and do their best work.

这些在整个捆绑包中共享，这确实有助于让真正的工程师更轻松、更高效地交付代码并尽最大努力。

A lot of this actually, I think, probably is pretty familiar to how you might organize at a tech company minus the editors.

我认为，实际上，其中很多内容可能与您在没有编辑的科技公司中的组织方式非常熟悉。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

On that info piece, that reminds me of something I definitely wanted to talk about, which is something New York Times is really known for is the visualizations and these immersive stories that you all put out.

在那篇信息文章中，这让我想起了我绝对想谈论的一些事情，《纽约时报》真正闻名的是你们发布的可视化和这些身临其境的故事。

I'm so curious just how that gets done.

我很好奇这是如何完成的。

I feel like if I was on a product team at a regular, like a big tech FAANG company, I'd be like, "Shit, all these ad hoc things I got to do for all these stories, such a pain in the butt." That's so important to the New York Times and the online experience.

我觉得如果我是一个常规的产品团队成员，比如一家大型科技 FAANG 公司，我会说，“妈的，我必须为所有这些故事做所有这些临时事情，真是太痛苦了。”这对于《纽约时报》和在线体验非常重要。

I'm curious just like what is it like to build these things, say the election widgets, and all of that stuff?

我很好奇建造这些东西是什么样的，比如说选举小部件，以及所有这些东西？

Lenny: Then, I don't know, I was just reading a story about climate change and it's this really beautiful immersive story of just what is happening with the world.

莱尼：然后，我不知道，我只是在读一个关于气候变化的故事，这是一个非常美丽的沉浸式故事，讲述了世界正在发生的事情。

There's a bunch of questions there, but I guess roughly just how does that get done, something like that?

那里有很多问题，但我猜大概是如何完成的，类似的事情？

Alex Hardiman: Well, first, thanks for saying that.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：首先，谢谢你这么说。

I really appreciate it.

我真的很感激。

I do think there's something really special about some of the ways that we marry the journalism and the presentation.

我确实认为我们将新闻和演示结合起来的某些方式确实很特别。

I want to start just by giving credit where credit's due, which is I think some of the most interesting and inventive and compelling formats, they actually do start off as one-off experiments that are spun up in the newsroom by embedded teams that we have within graphics, visual journalism, interactive news teams.

我想首先在应得的地方给予赞扬，我认为这是一些最有趣、最有创意和最引人注目的格式，它们实际上确实是从一次性实验开始的，这些实验是由我们在图形、视觉新闻、互动新闻团队中的嵌入式团队在新闻编辑室中进行的。

This is where we have editors, journalists, engineers, data scientists, designers, literally all hunkered down together focusing on how to make one story come to life in the best possible way.

在这里，我们有编辑、记者、工程师、数据科学家、设计师，他们实际上都聚集在一起，专注于如何以最好的方式让一个故事变得栩栩如生。

Lenny: Who has the idea usually?

莱尼：通常是谁有这个主意？

Is it like the journalists working on that, they're like, "Hey, I think we should make something really great."

就像从事这方面工作的记者一样，他们会说，“嘿，我认为我们应该做出一些非常伟大的事情。”

Alex Hardiman: Exactly.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：没错。

Yeah, one of the things ...

是的，其中一件事...

We have a newsroom of over 2000 people.

我们有一个超过 2000 人的新闻编辑室。

You basically have people who've been experts on certain beats like climate, for instance, for decades.

基本上，有些人几十年来一直是气候等某些领域的专家。

They have the nugget of the idea.

他们有这个想法的核心。

They start to do reporting and then they really pull in others from visuals, from interactive just to say, "How can I really make sure that I can tell this story with as much impact and weight as possible?" That's where the magic starts to happen, when you pull in all of those other skill sets together to help dream up how that story might be told.

他们开始做报道，然后他们真的从视觉、互动中吸引其他人，只是为了说，“我怎样才能真正确保我能够以尽可能大的影响力和分量来讲述这个故事？”当你将所有其他技能组合在一起以帮助想象如何讲述这个故事时，魔法就开始发生了。

Lenny: They're like, "Alex, we need one of these for our story.

莱尼：他们说，“亚历克斯，我们的故事需要其中之一。

Can you get us on the list?" How does that process go?

你能把我们列入名单吗？”这个过程是怎样进行的？

Alex Hardiman: No, no, no. These are teams that are really autonomous in the newsroom.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：不，不，不。这些是新闻编辑室中真正自主的团队。

For one-off, truly special features, I'll give you an example of one that I found to be particularly powerful.

对于一次性的、真正特殊的功能，我将给您举一个我发现特别强大的示例。

I don't know if you read Jodi Kantor, who is one of our ...

我不知道你是否读过乔迪·坎特（Jodi Kantor），她是我们的...

a really incredible investigative reporter.

一位真正令人难以置信的调查记者。

You might know for some of her work that she did around MeToo and Harvey Weinstein, in that investigation.

你可能知道她在那次调查中围绕 MeToo 和 Harvey Weinstein 所做的一些工作。

Alex Hardiman: She recently did a piece on how employers are tracking and monitoring remote workers with tools like productivity scores.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼（Alex Hardiman）：她最近发表了一篇关于雇主如何使用生产力评分等工具跟踪和监控远程员工的文章。

The story itself was designed to show a person's own productivity score in the moment as they read the article.

这个故事本身的目的是展示一个人在阅读这篇文章时自己的生产力得分。

Alex Hardiman: It was super visceral, really creepy in the most effective way.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：这是超级发自内心的，以最有效的方式令人毛骨悚然。

In my mind, that's the type of magical experience that only happens when you actually have dedicated designers, engineers, and others who can really sit down with a reporter to say, "Let's figure out how to shape that story in the most magical way." The speed of news is so fast that you don't have time to mess with roadmaps.

在我看来，只有当你真正有专门的设计师、工程师和其他人真正能坐下来与记者说“让我们弄清楚如何以最神奇的方式塑造这个故事”时，才会发生这种神奇的体验。新闻的传播速度如此之快，以至于您没有时间去搞乱路线图。

We really have teams who are freed up from some of the normal processes around that, so they can really just focus on storytelling for really big stories and pieces.

我们确实有一些团队从一些正常的流程中解放出来，所以他们可以真正专注于讲述真正的大故事和片段。

But on top of that, what we do have is a storytelling product team.

但最重要的是，我们拥有一个讲故事的产品团队。

What they do is they really take notice of things that are starting to work in more of the experimental phase, some of these one-offs.

他们所做的是真正注意到在更多实验阶段开始发挥作用的事情，其中​​一些是一次性的。

Alex Hardiman: Then, they work closely with editors to test and find product market fit for new formats that can actually scale across many parts of the report, so that over time when you open the app, the app is more accessible, more engaging, because we still have the traditional story based article, but we're also shifting more of the distribution of stories into video, into visuals, into live.

Alex Hardiman：然后，他们与编辑密切合作，测试并找到适合新格式的产品市场，这些新格式实际上可以扩展到报告的许多部分，这样随着时间的推移，当你打开应用程序时，应用程序会更容易访问、更有吸引力，因为我们仍然有传统的基于故事的文章，但我们也将更多的故事分发转移到视频、视觉效果和现场直播中。

If you even look at live, we've broken out of the tyranny of the article in many ways, where you have live reporter updates that are the size of length of tweets.

如果你看看现场直播，我们已经在很多方面摆脱了文章的专制，你可以看到现场记者的更新，其长度与推文一样长。

People filing from the ground in Ukraine, trying to give you a sense of what's happening in a very immediate and real way.

人们从乌克兰现场涌入，试图让您以非常直接和真实的方式了解正在发生的事情。

Alex Hardiman: That's where we do have teams, product teams who have to think in two modes.

Alex Hardiman：这就是我们的团队、产品团队必须以两种模式思考的地方。

First, they have to be able to think in the moment with editors, where you might not always have all the right data at your fingertips and you just have to make a call, like, "What is the best experience to tell this story in a really truthful, accurate, accessible way?" Then, the other mode is when they're not shipping at the speed of news, they're trying to build end to end systems so that we're building the tooling to actually create the stories at the same time as the consumer experience, which is a totally different mode of system level thinking.

首先，他们必须能够与编辑一起思考，你可能并不总能掌握所有正确的数据，你只需要打电话，比如“以真正真实、准确、易于理解的方式讲述这个故事的最佳体验是什么？”然后，另一种模式是当他们不以新闻速度发布时，他们试图构建端到端系统，以便我们构建工具来在消费者体验的同时实际创建故事，这是一种完全不同的系统级思维模式。

Alex Hardiman: It's a very cool space.

Alex Hardiman：这是一个非常酷的空间。

That product team is, they're pulling off some pretty incredible work because they can operate in those two modes.

该产品团队正在完成一些非常令人难以置信的工作，因为他们可以在这两种模式下运行。

It's like, in the moment, in the moment of the story, but also trying to build the systems that allow you to reshape the composition of storytelling formats that we have across our products over time.

就像在故事发生的那一刻，但同时也试图构建一个系统，让你能够随着时间的推移重塑我们产品中的叙事格式的构成。

Lenny: That is super cool.

莱尼：那太酷了。

What percentage of these fancy stories are using that platform and building on something that already exists versus a one-off experiment would you say roughly?

您粗略地说，这些奇特的故事中有多少比例是使用该平台并建立在已经存在的东西上，而不是一次性实验？

Alex Hardiman: The majority are on our platforms hands down.

Alex Hardiman：大多数都在我们的平台上。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

That makes sense.

这是有道理的。

Then, just so I understand, so you said Jodi was the journalist?

那么，据我了解，你说乔迪是记者？

Lenny: You mentioned.

莱尼：你提到过。

Does she has a product team dedicated to her work?

她有专门负责她工作的产品团队吗？

Alex Hardiman: No, what we have is we have a centralized interactive news team, graphics team, data journalism team.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：不，我们拥有的是一个集中的互动新闻团队、图形团队、数据新闻团队。

Those editors partner with different journalists when they have really big stories to help bring their story to life.

当这些编辑有真正的大新闻时，他们会与不同的记者合作，帮助将他们的故事变成现实。

Lenny: I see.

莱尼：我明白了。

Do they have to come to this team and be like, "Hey, I'd love your time." How does that prioritization ...

他们是否必须来到这个团队并说：“嘿，我很乐意享受你的时间。”优先级如何确定...

Because I imagine a lot of journalists are coming to them like, "Hey, my story is going to be awesome.

因为我想象很多记者会来找他们，比如，“嘿，我的故事会很棒。

We need you."

我们需要你。”

Alex Hardiman: You know what?

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：你知道吗？

To be totally honest, I'm not involved.

老实说，我没有参与其中。

Somehow it works.

不知何故它有效。

Lenny: That's a great leadership sign.

莱尼：这是一个很好的领导力标志。

It just works and you set it up and it's working, so that's great.

它就可以工作，你设置它并且它就可以工作，所以这很棒。

Alex Hardiman: Well, and the newsroom has set it up and something that is just, again, very interesting about the way that we are set up is that we have our newsroom and then we have our business side.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：嗯，新闻编辑室已经建立起来，我们的建立方式再次非常有趣的是，我们有我们的新闻编辑室，然后我们有我们的业务部门。

The business side is where you have all of the product teams and there is intense collaboration between the two, but they do have different leadership structures because that's how we maintain the independence of our coverage.

业务方面是拥有所有产品团队的地方，两者之间有密切的合作，但他们确实有不同的领导结构，因为这就是我们保持报道独立性的方式。

Our product teams sit within the newsroom if they're focused on storytelling, live, anything related to the coverage.

如果我们的产品团队专注于讲故事、现场直播以及与报道相关的任何事情，他们就会坐在新闻编辑室里。

Alex Hardiman: The only distinction really that I think I'm trying to make is that product teams really help stories find their widest audience and be as engaging and as impactful as can be.

Alex Hardiman：我认为我真正想要做出的唯一区别是，产品团队真正帮助故事找到最广泛的受众，并尽可能吸引人、产生影响力。

But product teams don't have any influence over the selection of the stories.

但产品团队对故事的选择没有任何影响力。

That is what the newsroom retains as editorial.

这就是新闻编辑室保留的社论内容。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

You mentioned Wordle and you all acquired Wordle recently.

您提到了 Wordle，并且您最近都收购了 Wordle。

I'm just curious what that was all like.

我只是很好奇那是什么样的。

I imagine it's still being integrated.

我想它仍在整合中。

Were you involved in the exploration and purchase process and what went on there?

您是否参与了勘探和购买过程？其中发生了什么？

Alex Hardiman: Wordle has been such a fun ride.

Alex Hardiman：Wordle 是一次非常有趣的旅程。

Maybe I'll first just bring you behind the scenes on how the deal came to be, and then we can talk a little bit more about what the integration process has been like.

也许我会首先向您介绍一下这笔交易是如何达成的，然后我们可以更多地讨论一下整合过程。

Alex Hardiman: I first heard about Wordle in early January because a New York Times reporter, Daniel Victor, actually wrote a piece about Josh Wardle, who's a software engineer in Brooklyn, and how he had created the game.

Alex Hardiman：我第一次听说 Wordle 是在 1 月初，因为《纽约时报》的记者 Daniel Victor 写了一篇关于 Josh Wardle（布鲁克林的软件工程师）以及他如何创建这款游戏的文章。

It really is this gesture of love for his partner, and I certainly wasn't the only person to read through that column.

这确实是对他的伴侣的爱的表现，我当然不是唯一读过该专栏的人。

Everyone inside the New York Times perked up.

《纽约时报》内部的每个人都精神抖擞。

I remember reaching out to Jonathan Knight, who's the general manager of games, he's on my team.

我记得联系了游戏总经理乔纳森·奈特（Jonathan Knight），他是我团队的一员。

He had already taken notice well before the piece was published, and he had already reached out to Josh to see if he would be interested in having games join our portfolio.

他早在这篇文章发表之前就已经注意到了，并且他已经联系了 Josh，看看他是否有兴趣让游戏加入我们的产品组合。

Alex Hardiman: We just all loved Wordle immediately because if you've played it, it shares a lot of the DNA of other really successful word games that we have at the New York Times, like Spelling Bee or the Crossword Mini.

Alex Hardiman：我们立刻就爱上了 Wordle，因为如果你玩过它，你会发现它与我们在《纽约时报》上拥有的其他真正成功的文字游戏有很多共同的 DNA，比如 Spelling Bee 或 Crossword Mini。

If anything, Josh was really forthright that he created it because he was inspired by those games.

如果说有什么不同的话，乔什真的很直率，他创造了这款游戏，因为他受到了这些游戏的启发。

Then, in the context of just our subscription strategy, games is such an important category for us.

然后，就我们的订阅策略而言，游戏对我们来说是一个非常重要的类别。

We really see games and demand for games as this, basically, it's a counterpoint to the news.

我们确实看到了游戏和对游戏的需求，因为这基本上与新闻相反。

It gives people a chance to actually take a break.

它给人们一个真正休息的机会。

It's fun.

很有趣。

It doesn't feel like empty calories.

感觉不像是空卡路里。

It's really time well spent.

时间确实花得值。

Alex Hardiman: We were just thinking of Wordle as such a wonderful addition to our games franchise to really give people more reasons to feel like they had a relationship with the New York Times every day.

Alex Hardiman：我们只是认为《Wordle》是我们游戏系列的一个精彩补充，让人们有更多理由感觉他们每天都与《纽约时报》保持着联系。

The whole thesis of the acquisition just made so much sense.

收购的整个主题非常有意义。

Our team just very quickly engaged with Josh and the acquisition talks were incredibly fast.

我们的团队很快就与乔什进行了接触，收购谈判的速度非常快。

The whole thing took place in a matter of weeks, which is way faster than any other acquisition I've been a part of.

整个过程只用了几周的时间，这比我参与过的任何其他收购都要快。

It was a very amicable process.

这是一个非常友好的过程。

We were just super delighted to bring Wordle on board, but it happened in record speed.

我们非常高兴将 Wordle 引入其中，但它的速度却创下了纪录。

Lenny: Well, yeah, it felt fast from the outside too.

莱尼：嗯，是的，从外面看也感觉很快。

It became a huge deal.

这成了一件大事。

Then, "Okay, New York Times buys them." Yeah, it's impressive.

然后，“好吧，《纽约时报》买下了它们。”是的，这令人印象深刻。

You said you acquired Athletic.

你说你收购了 Athletic。

How often are you acquiring companies?

您收购公司的频率是多少？

Alex Hardiman: We also acquired The Athletic, and that was back in around the same time.

Alex Hardiman：我们还收购了 The Athletic，那是在大约同一时间。

I think for now we feel like we actually ...

我想现在我们感觉我们实际上......

we have all of the major categories to make the essential subscription work.

我们拥有所有主要类别来进行必要的订阅工作。

For us to get to 15 million subscribers we really feel like news, sports, games, cooking, audio and shopping, those are the categories, and we just have to make them the best possible versions of themselves, those products, so that we can really provide just tremendous value every day to people.

对于我们来说，要获得 1500 万订阅者，我们真的喜欢新闻、体育、游戏、烹饪、音频和购物，这些都是类别，我们只需要让它们成为它们本身、这些产品的最佳版本，这样我们才能真正每天为人们提供巨大的价值。

That doesn't mean that we won't make some other acquisitions.

这并不意味着我们不会进行其他收购。

The next Wordle would absolutely love to hear about it.

下一个 Wordle 绝对会很高兴听到这个消息。

Alex Hardiman: But I do think there's also a real lesson for a lot of companies, not only about when you acquire what's the opportunity, but also are you ready to actually integrate an acquisition?

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：但我确实认为这对很多公司来说也是一个真正的教训，不仅是关于何时收购的机会是什么，而且是关于你准备好真正整合收购了吗？

We learned a lot just around Wordle in terms of what that process is like.

我们从 Wordle 的流程中学到了很多东西。

I just want to say I'm really proud of how thoughtful and considerate our games team was about the integration process, because Wordle players feel such connection to the game.

我只是想说，我对我们的游戏团队在整合过程中的深思熟虑感到非常自豪，因为 Wordle 玩家感受到了与游戏的联系。

We really wanted to make sure not to interfere with the core magic of the experience.

我们确实想确保不会干扰体验的核心魔力。

If you are an eight-year old kid or an 88-year old adult, there's real resonance with Wordle and people just have such a connection to it.

如果您是 8 岁的孩子或 88 岁的成年人，Wordle 会引起真正的共鸣，人们就会与它产生这样的联系。

We really wanted to make sure we didn't mess it up.

我们真的想确保我们没有把事情搞砸。

Do you want to go a little bit deeper, just almost what that looks like?

你想更深入一点吗？就像看起来的那样？

Alex Hardiman: Because we definitely learned a lot.

Alex Hardiman：因为我们确实学到了很多东西。

When we acquired Wordle, it was a simple web game with no backend.

当我们收购Wordle时，它是一个简单的网页游戏，没有后端。

That meant that people's stats and streaks, which was that was the value in terms of social currency that people were sharing after playing, those stats and streaks were stored in local browsers.

这意味着人们的统计数据和连胜记录，即人们在玩游戏后分享的社交货币的价值，这些统计数据和连胜记录存储在本地浏览器中。

It was really important for us to make sure that the game board experience in the core loop of the game remained unchanged.

确保游戏核心循环中的游戏板体验保持不变对我们来说非常重要。

But we also found that because everything was stored locally and people care so much about their stats and streaks, if they got a new iPhone, if they switched browsers, all of a sudden they lost all of that history that they had with the game.

但我们还发现，由于所有内容都存储在本地，而且人们非常关心自己的统计数据和连胜记录，如果他们换了新 iPhone，如果他们更换浏览器，他们会突然失去所有游戏历史记录。

Alex Hardiman: What we decided to do was undertake a project to connect Wordle to a New York Times account, which was free, because Wordle is a free game, just so that it knows who you are and so that your stats and streaks can be protected.

Alex Hardiman：我们决定做的是将 Wordle 连接到《纽约时报》帐户的项目，该项目是免费的，因为 Wordle 是一款免费游戏，这样它就可以知道您是谁，从而可以保护您的统计数据和连胜记录。

Then, we could also bring Wordle to more surfaces because we wanted ...

然后，我们还可以将 Wordle 带到更多表面，因为我们想要......

if you go to the homepage of the news app or if you go to the games app, we wanted to make it easier to find because people would come for Spelling Bee or Crosswords and they also wanted their Wordle.

如果您转到新闻应用程序的主页或如果您转到游戏应用程序，我们希望使其更容易找到，因为人们会来参加拼写比赛或填字游戏，而且他们还想要他们的 Wordle。

It was a pretty big effort to rewrite Wordle in our tech stack, give people the ability to store their stats and streaks, bring games to all of our major surfaces.

在我们的技术堆栈中重写 Wordle，让人们能够存储他们的统计数据和连胜记录，将游戏带到我们所有的主要平台上，这是一项相当大的努力。

Alex Hardiman: We just tried to do it in a thoughtful way, where we didn't break anything.

Alex Hardiman：我们只是尝试以一种深思熟虑的方式来做这件事，我们没有破坏任何东西。

The experience was hopefully seamless, and that the only thing you would notice that's changed is that the New York Times knows enough about who you are so that your stats carry over and you can play anywhere.

希望这种体验是无缝的，你会注意到唯一改变的是《纽约时报》足够了解你是谁，这样你的统计数据就会保留下来，你可以在任何地方玩。

But that doesn't mean that there aren't some surprises along the way, especially when you're doing backend work.

但这并不意味着一路上不会出现一些意外，尤其是当您进行后端工作时。

We had this pretty crazy moment a couple months ago, right when the Supreme Court's draft ruling on Roe v.

几个月前，当最高法院就罗伊诉美国案作出裁决草案时，我们经历了一个非常疯狂的时刻。

Wade leaked.

韦德泄密了。

An engineer on the games team happened to notice that the Wordle solution the next day was fetus.

游戏团队的一位工程师偶然注意到第二天的 Wordle 解决方案是胎儿。

Which is just an extraordinarily bad coincidence, because the word had been loaded into the game by the game founder months beforehand.

这只是一个非常糟糕的巧合，因为这个词是游戏创始人几个月前加载到游戏中的。

Alex Hardiman: It was so important for us that we didn't have ...

Alex Hardiman：这对我们来说非常重要，以至于我们没有......

this lovely diversion from the news feel almost like it was commentary on a very contentious story that was happening.

这个可爱的新闻转移感觉几乎就像是对正在发生的一个非常有争议的故事的评论。

I don't know if you caught wind of that, but you'd think that you could easily change the word on the backend, but because we were midstream on the migration process and some users were on the original Wordle game, others had migrated to the new version.

我不知道你是否听说过这一点，但你可能会认为你可以轻松地在后端更改单词，但因为我们处于迁移过程的中游，并且一些用户使用原始的 Wordle 游戏，其他人已经迁移到新版本。

It meant that we actually couldn't change the word on the backend for everyone, only for some people.

这意味着我们实际上无法为所有人更改后端的单词，只能为某些人更改。

This was a moment where we just had to come out and really tell the world, "We're mid integration.

在这个时刻，我们必须站出来，真正告诉世界：“我们正处于整合过程中。

We're really not trying to communicate more than Wordle being a fun diversion from the news.

我们确实不想通过 Wordle 来进行更多的交流，只是将其作为新闻中的一种有趣的消遣。

Here's what happened, and why."

这就是发生的事情以及原因。”

Alex Hardiman: Everyone understood.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：每个人都明白。

This is where coming out being really transparent about the facts and in some cases just exposing more about the product development process really helps demystify some of the rumors that people might otherwise think.

这就是对事实真正透明的地方，在某些情况下，只是揭露更多有关产品开发过程的信息，确实有助于揭开人们可能认为的一些谣言的神秘面纱。

It was one of those like, "Oh, man, I couldn't have imagined that that type of terrible coincidence would happen." But you just have to be prepared for everything, even when you're integrating what should just be a fun game.

其中之一就是，“哦，伙计，我无法想象这种可怕的巧合会发生。”但你必须为一切做好准备，即使你正在集成一个本来应该是有趣的游戏。

Lenny: Imagine, no matter what you tell people, some folks are just not going to believe a very simple explanation of what was going on.

莱尼：想象一下，无论你告诉人们什么，有些人都不会相信对正在发生的事情的简单解释。

Alex Hardiman: It's true.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：确实如此。

All you can do is be as honest and transparent.

您所能做的就是诚实和透明。

What I will say is a lot of people still think we try to make Wordle harder, we don't, I promise.

我要说的是，很多人仍然认为我们试图让 Wordle 变得更难，但我保证，我们不会。

It's not a thing.

这不是一件事。

Lenny: Yeah, it's not like the crossword puzzle where it gets harder every day of the week.

莱尼：是的，这不像填字游戏，一周中的每一天都变得越来越难。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Vanta, helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate growth.

Lenny：本集由 Vanta 为您带来，可帮助您简化安全合规性以加速增长。

If your business stores any data in the cloud, then you've likely been asked or you're going to be asked about your SOC 2 compliance.

如果您的企业在云中存储任何数据，那么您可能会被询问或将被询问有关 SOC 2 合规性的问题。

SOC 2 is a way to prove your company's taking proper security measures to protect customer data and builds trust with customers and partners, especially those with serious security requirements.

SOC 2 是一种证明您的公司采取了适当的安全措施来保护客户数据并与客户和合作伙伴（尤其是那些有严格安全要求的客户和合作伙伴）建立信任的方法。

Also, if you want to sell to the enterprise, proving security is essential.

此外，如果你想向企业销售产品，证明安全性至关重要。

SOC 2 can either open the door for bigger and better deals or it can put your business on hold.

SOC 2 可以为更大、更好的交易打开大门，也可以让您的业务暂停。

Lenny: If you don't have a SOC 2, there's a good chance you won't even get a seat at the table.

Lenny：如果您没有 SOC 2，您很可能连一席之地都得不到。

Beginning a SOC 2 report can be a huge burden, especially for startups.

开始 SOC 2 报告可能是一个巨大的负担，尤其是对于初创公司而言。

It's time consuming, tedious, and expensive.

这是耗时、乏味且昂贵的。

Enter Vanta, over 3000 fast growing companies use Vanta to automate up to 90% of the work involved with SOC 2.

进入 Vanta，超过 3000 家快速发展的公司使用 Vanta 自动化 SOC 2 涉及的高达 90% 的工作。

Vanta can get you ready for security audits in weeks instead of months, less than a third of the time that it usually takes.

Vanta 可以让您在几周而不是几个月内为安全审核做好准备，不到通常所需时间的三分之一。

For a limited time, Lenny's Podcast listeners get $1,000 off of Vanta.

在有限的时间内，Lenny 的播客听众可以从 Vanta 获得 1,000 美元的折扣。

Lenny: Just go to vanta.com/lenny.

莱尼：只需访问vanta.com/lenny。

That's V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny to learn more and to claim your discount.

请访问 V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny 了解更多信息并申请折扣。

Get started today.

今天就开始吧。

Are there any other stories that come to mind that reflect just how interesting/wild it is to work at the New York Times as a product leader?

我脑海中是否还有其他故事可以反映在《纽约时报》担任产品负责人是多么有趣/疯狂？

Alex Hardiman: If we could of go back to when I started at the New York Times, because I started in late 2019, it was just right before the pandemic.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：如果我们可以回到我在《纽约时报》工作的时候，因为我是在 2019 年底开始工作的，当时正好是大流行之前。

It was pretty wild to come back to the company and to get shifted into this moment of needing to build products that really were trying to help people through the moment.

回到公司并进入需要构建真正试图帮助人们度过这一时刻的产品的时刻，真是太疯狂了。

At a time when our journalists were covering the story and all of New York Times' employees were trying to live through it.

当时我们的记者正在报道这个故事，《纽约时报》的所有员工都在努力经历它。

It was COVID 24/7 in terms of work and life.

无论是工作还是生活，现在都是新冠肺炎 (COVID 24/7)。

For me, I remember in the earliest days when we were first really reporting on COVID and learning about it, we had reporters on the ground in Wuhan even before we knew how COVID was transmitted.

对我来说，我记得在我们第一次真正报道和了解新冠病毒的最早日子里，甚至在我们知道新冠病毒是如何传播之前，我们就已经在武汉当地派了记者。

Alex Hardiman: Then, when the world shut down, for the Times, we went fully remote in March, 2020, and I remember the day so well because it was the beginning of spring break, of course, all plans were canceled.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：然后，当世界关闭时，对于《泰晤士报》来说，我们在 2020 年 3 月完全处于远程状态，我清楚地记得那天，因为那是春假的开始，当然，所有计划都被取消了。

My kids, I had no idea what to do with them.

我的孩子们，我不知道该怎么对待他们。

My husband and I panic packed, put them in a car, drove to go see some friends in Vermont, and we decided we were going to do a kid daycare pool share just to figure out how to keep working with someone overseeing the kids.

我和丈夫惊慌失措，把他们装进车里，开车去见佛蒙特州的一些朋友，我们决定要共享一个儿童日托池，只是为了弄清楚如何继续与照顾孩子的人一起工作。

We got there late at night and I literally just went into a laundry closet and I didn't emerge for two weeks because my Slack was blowing up about all of the work that we needed to do to make our products as useful as possible.

我们深夜到达那里，我实际上只是走进了一个洗衣间，两周没有出现，因为我的 Slack 正在炸毁我们需要做的所有工作，以使我们的产品尽可能有用。

Alex Hardiman: The kids were being crazy and we just had to get to work.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：孩子们太疯狂了，我们必须开始工作。

What was really stunning about this moment in time was that as people were getting sick and we were reporting about all of the trends that we were seeing, we saw that other institutions, especially the government, were not actually stepping up to help people understand the basic facts about what was happening.

这个时刻真正令人震惊的是，当人们生病时，我们正在报告我们所看到的所有趋势，我们看到其他机构，特别是政府，实际上并没有站出来帮助人们了解正在发生的事情的基本事实。

This is a product leader, it's a real wartime moment where you just need to blow up roadmaps, share context with everyone and say, "Okay, everyone, we have a totally different mandate than what we did a couple weeks ago." Given the needs in the world and the mission of the New York Times and our purpose, which is to help people access information to make informed decision about their lives, we're going to do a whole bunch of these things.

这是一个产品领导者，这是一个真正的战时时刻，你只需要炸毁路线图，与每个人分享背景并说，“好吧，大家，我们的任务与几周前完全不同。”考虑到世界的需求、《纽约时报》的使命以及我们的目的，即帮助人们获取信息，从而对他们的生活做出明智的决定，我们将做很多这样的事情。

Alex Hardiman: We're going to build a comprehensive public data set of COVID cases.

Alex Hardiman：我们将建立一个全面的新冠病例公共数据集。

Nobody else is doing it.

没有其他人这样做。

We really just started scraping and pulling this together, and what was a single spreadsheet at the time.

我们实际上只是开始将其整合在一起，当时只是一个电子表格。

We pulled a bunch of engineers from other teams to go help build out that database.

我们从其他团队抽调了一群工程师来帮助构建该数据库。

We launched entirely new formats and data tools to make our journalism a lot more easier to follow.

我们推出了全新的格式和数据工具，使我们的新闻报道更容易理解。

Things like tools to be able to look up infection rates and eventually vaccination rates down at your local zip code level.

诸如能够查找感染率并最终降低当地邮政编码级别的疫苗接种率的工具之类的东西。

We made our most important COVID coverage free to everybody.

我们向所有人免费提供最重要的新冠肺炎报道。

It was really important that if it was something related to public safety, we didn't put it behind a paywall.

非常重要的是，如果它与公共安全有关，我们不会将其置于付费墙后面。

Alex Hardiman: Our mission is to do better than that.

Alex Hardiman：我们的使命是做得更好。

We really made sure that we had that information available to everyone.

我们确实确保每个人都能获得这些信息。

We also just found that for journalists who hadn't actually been in Wuhan, they just needed tips to an internal safety guidance for reporting, and so we made that publicly available.

我们还发现，对于实际上没有去过武汉的记者来说，他们只需要有关内部报道安全指南的提示，因此我们将其公开。

It was just one of those really interesting moments where everything felt so crazy in this moment of crisis.

这只是那些非常有趣的时刻之一，在这个危机时刻，一切都感觉如此疯狂。

But building purposeful products that made a really difficult moment feel not only possible but promising, was one of the most unifying moments, I would say, for our teams.

但我想说，构建有目的的产品，让真正困难的时刻不仅变得可能，而且充满希望，是我们团队最团结的时刻之一。

Alex Hardiman: Because even though people were working so hard and balancing work life and personal life, no one doubted for a second that the work they were doing was of greater good for the world.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：因为尽管人们如此努力地工作并平衡工作生活和个人生活，但没有人怀疑他们所做的工作对世界有更大的好处。

There's real privilege in being able to spend your time doing those things.

能够花时间做这些事情真是一种荣幸。

But it's one of the biggest news stories of our lifetime and to be at the forefront of that, I think for all of us, was a pretty incredible and humbling experience.

但这是我们一生中最大的新闻报道之一，我认为对我们所有人来说，站在新闻的最前沿，是一次非常令人难以置信和令人谦卑的经历。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

People talk about having impact and driving impact and it's usually like, move this metric some percentage, but that is some incredible impact.

人们谈论产生影响和推动影响，通常会将此指标移动一定比例，但这是一些令人难以置信的影响。

Helping people avoid COVID, avoid dying, keeping their families safe.

帮助人们避免感染新冠病毒，避免死亡，保证家人的安全。

It's got to be some of the most fulfilling work that you and your team has done and ideally it wouldn't have happened, but it was also probably incredibly fulfilling.

这一定是你和你的团队所做过的最有成就感的工作之一，理想情况下它不会发生，但它也可能是令人难以置信的成就感。

Alex Hardiman: Thank you for saying that.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：谢谢你这么说。

One of the most validating tricks that we did look at was we realized that at the height of the pandemic, when there was just so much confusion about literally what to do, how to live each day in March, 2020, we saw that half of the country came to the New York Times.

我们确实研究过的最有效的技巧之一是，我们意识到，在大流行最严重的时候，2020 年 3 月，人们对每天该做什么、如何生活感到非常困惑，我们看到一半的人都看上了《纽约时报》。

There is something again that is just so powerful about very straightforward data journalism, deep reporting, service guidance on how to make a mask if you don't have one.

非常简单的数据新闻、深入的报道以及如何制作口罩的服务指南（如果你没有口罩的话）再次具有如此强大的力量。

Just like all of these basics.

就像所有这些基础知识一样。

Just seeing the whole organization pivot from their normal job into this mode and was pretty incredible, and the world responded, which was really validating too.

看到整个组织从正常工作转向这种模式，真是令人难以置信，全世界都做出了回应，这也确实得到了验证。

Lenny: I imagine there's also a bit of burnout that happens working, where it goes on and on and on.

莱尼：我想工作中也会出现一些倦怠，而且这种情况会持续不断。

You're like, "Oh, my God, when is this going to slow down?" How do you help people avoid burnout?

你会想，“天哪，这一切什么时候才能慢下来？”你如何帮助人们避免倦怠？

How do you catch burnout as a leader on a product team?

作为产品团队的领导者，你如何发现职业倦怠？

Alex Hardiman: This is one of the most honestly, hard and important topics that I think we're always still grappling with.

Alex Hardiman：我认为这是我们一直在努力解决的最诚实、最困难和最重要的话题之一。

As a company, we really did try to lead originally with giving people more time off, more support, like financial support and other assistance with daycare, health benefits, all of the basics.

作为一家公司，我们最初确实尝试过为人们提供更多的休息时间、更多的支持，比如财务支持和其他日托、健康福利等基本援助。

I think now what we're really trying to do beyond that is be so much more focused on the things that we need to do and all of the things that we're really happy to stop doing.

我认为现在我们真正想做的事情是更加专注于我们需要做的事情以及我们真的很乐意停止做的所有事情。

Because part of, I think, context switching is one of the things that is really, really difficult.

因为我认为上下文切换是非常非常困难的事情之一。

It's hard to context switch in your job.

在你的工作中很难进行上下文切换。

Alex Hardiman: It's really hard to context switch across your job and your life.

Alex Hardiman：在你的工作和生活中切换环境真的很困难。

There are a lot of things that we as a company can't necessarily control in people's lives, but within the job, the places where we can be so much more focused and thoughtful about the small number of important things that we must do at a given point in time, that's really the place where we're really trying to come in and be as empathetic and as honest about what we need to do and what we don't need to do.

作为一家公司，人们的生活中有很多事情是我们不一定能控制的，但在工作中，我们可以更加专注和思考我们在特定时间点必须做的少数重要事情，这确实是我们真正努力介入的地方，对我们需要做的事情和不需要做的事情保持同理心和诚实。

A lot of it really comes down to, I think, making hard calls.

我认为，这很大程度上取决于做出艰难的决定。

We're not always perfect at it.

我们在这方面并不总是完美的。

I'm sure that there are things that we could be more diligent about.

我确信有些事情我们可以更加努力。

Alex Hardiman: But I would say over on balance, we've seen a lot of people stay at the company because they're figuring out they work remotely, maybe they come back to the office.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：但总的来说，我想说，我们看到很多人留在公司，因为他们发现自己在远程工作，也许他们会回到办公室。

They're figuring out how to live their life in a very different way from a couple of years ago.

他们正在研究如何以与几年前截然不同的方式生活。

We're really here to try to meet them and make that as possible as possible.

我们来这里真的是为了与他们见面并尽可能地做到这一点。

We need incredible people across a bunch of different skill sets, a bunch of different backgrounds.

我们需要具有不同技能、不同背景的优秀人才。

The only way to do that is to really be very flexible and accommodating in terms of trying to meet people where they are in their lives, but it's tricky.

做到这一点的唯一方法就是非常灵活和包容地尝试与人们生活中的人会面，但这很棘手。

Alex Hardiman: There is no perfect answer for this, but we're really trying because the success of the company only works when we have people who feel valued and they can do their best work and live really rich lives on top of that.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼（Alex Hardiman）：对此没有完美的答案，但我们确实在努力，因为只有当我们的员工感到受到重视并且他们能够尽最大努力并在此基础上过上真正富裕的生活时，公司才能取得成功。

I think we're all still figuring out what that looks like now that we're starting to come out of the official pandemic and really just learning how to live with COVID.

我认为，既然我们已经开始摆脱官方的大流行，并且实际上只是在学习如何与新冠病毒共存，那么我们都还在弄清楚那是什么样子。

Lenny: Right, absolutely.

莱尼：对，绝对是。

You mentioned that you're all remote now.

你提到你们现在都处于远程状态。

Is that the policy going forward?

以后的政策是这样的吗？

Alex Hardiman: We actually just started going back into the office a couple of days per week, which is very encouraged.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：实际上我们刚刚开始每周有几天回到办公室，这非常令人鼓舞。

We're still finding our groove.

我们仍在寻找自己的最佳状态。

We do have a good number of people though who are fully remote as well.

我们确实有很多人也完全处于偏远地区。

It's more of an evolution in terms of trying to find the right balance of taking advantage of in-person work, because there are some moments where it really does make such a difference when you have people together working through hard problems in real life.

这更多的是试图找到利用面对面工作的适当平衡的一种演变，因为在某些时刻，当你让人们一起解决现实生活中的难题时，它确实会产生如此大的影响。

That camaraderie, those relationships really, really do matter.

那种友情、那些关系真的非常重要。

Also, being realistic about the fact that there are a lot of people who would love to work at the New York Times, but might not be able to live in the New York City area.

此外，要现实地认识到这样一个事实：有很多人愿意在《纽约时报》工作，但可能无法住在纽约市地区。

Alex Hardiman: So, how do we make sure that we can be a remote friendly company for them too?

Alex Hardiman：那么，我们如何确保我们也能成为一家对他们来说远程友好的公司？

Yeah, so we're very hybrid, we're still testing our way through it.

是的，所以我们非常混合，我们仍在测试我们的方式。

But by and large, we're shipping so much tremendous work, which I think is a reflection of us being able to do the hybrid thing and just try to get better and better at it each day, each week.

但总的来说，我们正在交付如此多的巨大工作，我认为这反映了我们能够做混合的事情，并努力每天、每周做得越来越好。

Lenny: Yeah, it's hard.

莱尼：是的，这很难。

As an outsider, I can't imagine a New York Times being all remote.

作为一个局外人，我无法想象《纽约时报》是完全遥远的。

It feels like that kind of company just, it's all happening in a building somewhere probably.

感觉就像是那种公司，这一切可能都发生在某个地方的一栋大楼里。

I'm also a big fan of in-person, it feels like as a company, it feels like you have an advantage if you're working in-person generally.

我也非常喜欢面对面的工作，感觉作为一家公司，如果你通常亲自工作的话，感觉你有一个优势。

Alex Hardiman: We certainly see that, and so the center of gravity is in New York and is in the office, but again, with a lot of flexibility for people's lives.

Alex Hardiman：我们当然看到了这一点，所以重心在纽约，在办公室，但同样，人们的生活有很大的灵活性。

We're really trying to figure out that balance.

我们确实在努力找到这种平衡。

Lenny: Just a couple more questions before we get to our very exciting lightning round.

莱尼：在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，还有几个问题。

Where's the New York Times in the next five, 10 years as a product specifically different from other folks?

未来五年、十年内，《纽约时报》作为一款与其他产品有何不同的产品，会走向何方？

Then, broadly, I don't know, if you have any insights or opinions on just what is the future of news, do share.

然后，总的来说，我不知道您是否对新闻的未来有任何见解或意见，请分享。

Alex Hardiman: I think the New York Times is in a pretty unique spot compared to other news organizations right now.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：我认为与其他新闻机构相比，《纽约时报》目前处于一个非常独特的位置。

I have tremendous respect for other high quality organizations like The Journal and The Post and The FT and The Guardian.

我非常尊重《华尔街日报》、《华盛顿邮报》、《金融时报》和《卫报》等其他高质量组织。

They're just doing such incredible work.

他们正在做如此令人难以置信的工作。

But when I go back to what differentiates us, it's this idea of becoming an essential subscription that really helps people.

但当我回到我们的与众不同之处时，真正帮助人们的是成为必不可少的订阅的想法。

It meets their most important news and life needs across all of the categories that we've been talking about, like news, games, audio, cooking, et cetera.

它满足了我们一直在谈论的所有类别中最重要的新闻和生活需求，例如新闻、游戏、音频、烹饪等。

Alex Hardiman: Up until, I would say, this year we were more of a news brand with a collection of adjacent lifestyle products, but with the acquisition of Wordle and the Athletic, along with just the continued growth of cooking and Wirecutter and some of our other offerings, I really do think that has transformed us into a brand capable of really being that essential subscription that helps every single day people with news and life needs in a way that doesn't just associate the New York Times with categories.

Alex Hardiman：我想说，直到今年，我们更像是一个新闻品牌，拥有一系列相邻的生活方式产品，但随着收购 Wordle 和 Athletic，以及烹饪和 Wirecutter 以及我们其他一些产品的持续增长，我确实认为这已经将我们转变为一个能够真正成为必要订阅的品牌，帮助每天的人们了解新闻和生活需求，而不仅仅是将《纽约时报》与类别联系起来。

Imagine that you open the New York Times app and you are starting with a great breaking news story.

想象一下，您打开《纽约时报》应用程序，然后从一个精彩的突发新闻故事开始。

Then, you skip over to the latest coverage in China.

然后，您跳到中国的最新报道。

Alex Hardiman: Then, you decide that you want to take a small break to play Spelling Bee, and then you want to plan a Korean dinner party with Eric Kim, who I don't know if you know has some of the best Korean recipes.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：然后，你决定休息一下去玩拼字比赛，然后你想与埃里克·金一起计划一个韩国晚宴，我不知道你是否知道他有一些最好的韩国食谱。

He's amazing.

他太棒了。

Then, you're like, "Wow, I need a rice cooker to be able to make that recipe, so I need to go get the best recommendation from Wirecutter."

然后，你会想，“哇，我需要一个电饭锅才能制作该食谱，所以我需要从 Wirecutter 获得最佳推荐。”

Lenny: I just did exactly that, actually.

莱尼：事实上，我就是这么做的。

Alex Hardiman: Then, I would love to go watch the Britney Spears documentary, which is also part of the New York Times franchise, which is amazing.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：那么，我很想去观看布兰妮·斯皮尔斯的纪录片，这也是《纽约时报》系列的一部分，非常棒。

Or, I want to go listen to Kevin Roose and Casey Newton's Hard Fork podcast, which is wildly fun and just launched a couple weeks ago, if you haven't heard that.

或者，我想去听一下 Kevin Roose 和 Casey Newton 的 Hard Fork 播客，如果你还没有听过的话，这个播客非常有趣，几周前刚刚推出。

This is, I think, the future for us of being a connected family of products, where we can meet so many different needs that are first anchored in news, but then stretched into other facets of your lives.

我认为，这就是我们成为一个互联产品系列的未来，我们可以满足许多不同的需求，这些需求首先以新闻为基础，然后延伸到您生活的其他方面。

I don't really see other news organizations really operating at that scale and that ambition, and that's the future for us.

我真的没有看到其他新闻机构真正以这样的规模和雄心运作，而这就是我们的未来。

Alex Hardiman: We really just think that the New York Times can mean so much more to so many more people.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：我们真的只是认为《纽约时报》对更多的人来说意义重大。

We're a journalism company, but we're building just tremendous software, and so the product ambitions are only getting bigger and bigger, and that's why I feel like I've got the luckiest job in the world right now.

我们是一家新闻公司，但我们正在构建巨大的软件，因此产品野心只会越来越大，这就是为什么我觉得我现在拥有世界上最幸运的工作。

Lenny: That is a compelling vision.

莱尼：这是一个令人信服的愿景。

I feel like you can build your own metaverse in the New York Times where you just spend all of your days inside the New York Times' suite of products.

我觉得你可以在《纽约时报》中构建自己的虚拟世界，在那里你可以将所有的时间都花在《纽约时报》的产品套件中。

Alex Hardiman: Can I say though, there is a big difference.

Alex Hardiman：我可以说，有很大的不同。

I think that for us our software actually helps people with real world outcomes in a very different way.

我认为对我们来说，我们的软件实际上以一种非常不同的方式帮助人们获得现实世界的结果。

We basically help you get access to information, decide how you're going to go to the ballot box.

我们基本上帮助您获取信息，决定您将如何前往投票箱。

We give you information to go cook.

我们为您提供做饭的信息。

Actually, there's something that I think is even more of a connection to the physical world, and it is very different from what the Metaverse is doing, but that's where we feel like we can drive as much impact as possible.

事实上，我认为有些东西与物理世界有更多的联系，它与元宇宙所做的事情非常不同，但我们觉得我们可以在这方面产生尽可能多的影响。

Lenny: You can have your own competing metaverse.

Lenny：你可以拥有自己的竞争虚拟宇宙。

Here's a quick Wirecutter suggest idea for you, while we're chatting.

在我们聊天时，Wirecutter 为您提供了一个快速建议。

I feel like Wirecutter, I use it all the time, everything I buy is based on Wirecutter recommendations, but I feel like there's an opportunity for design oriented version of Wirecutter.

我觉得 Wirecutter，我一直在使用它，我购买的所有东西都是基于 Wirecutter 的推荐，但我觉得有机会推出面向设计的 Wirecutter 版本。

I don't know if anyone's thinking about that.

我不知道是否有人在思考这个问题。

Lenny: Just Wirecutter's functional stuff.

Lenny：只是 Wirecutter 的功能性东西。

It's like, "Here's the best, I don't know, rice cooker." But like, what's the cutest but also the best?

就像，“这是最好的，我不知道，电饭锅。”但就像，什么是最可爱但也是最好的？

What's the cross section of looks good in my house and is the best.

什么横截面在我家看起来不错，是最好的。

I'll be okay not the best best if it looks nicer, so a design lens to Wirecutter.

如果它看起来更好的话，我会没事的，不是最好的，所以是 Wirecutter 的设计镜头。

Alex Hardiman: If it's Wirecutter meets high taste, basically.

Alex Hardiman：基本上，如果 Wirecutter 符合高品味的话。

I like that.

我喜欢这样。

I like that.

我喜欢这样。

Okay.

好的。

Lenny: I think there's a market there.

莱尼：我认为那里有市场。

Alex Hardiman: I'll definitely bring that back to the team.

Alex Hardiman：我一定会把它带回团队。

That's a good one.

这是一件好事。

Lenny: There you go.

莱尼：给你。

Well, we've reached our very exciting lightning round where I'm just going to ask you, I have six questions, I'll get through them pretty quick.

好吧，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合，我要问你们，我有六个问题，我会很快解决。

Whatever comes to mind, fire off.

想到什么就开火。

We'll go through it fast and fun.

我们会快速而有趣地完成它。

Sound good?

听起来不错吗？

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

What are two or three books that you recommend most to other people?

您最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Alex Hardiman: I love Stripe Press, and so I think a lot of the books that they have are just such good references, like Elad Gill's High Growth Handbook, or Will Larson's An Elegant Puzzle.

Alex Hardiman：我喜欢 Stripe Press，所以我认为他们的很多书都是很好的参考书，比如 Elad Gill 的《High Growth Handbook》，或者 Will Larson 的《An Elegant Puzzle》。

Then, some of the more topical ones like Revolt of the Public.

然后，一些更热门的话题，例如公众的反抗。

I just find that they're evergreen in terms of their utility.

我只是发现它们在实用性方面是常青的。

Anyone can find value in them.

任何人都可以发现它们的价值。

I just loved the craft of the books themselves.

我只是喜欢这些书本身的工艺。

They are amazing products in terms of the content and the form, so those are, in the product context and work context, those are hands down I would say the places where I go first.

就内容和形式而言，它们都是令人惊叹的产品，因此，在产品环境和工作环境中，这些都是我首先要去的地方。

Alex Hardiman: But I do think, and I know this is this humanities major in me, I also always try to balance books and my own reading time and recommendations with fiction.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：但我确实认为，而且我知道这就是我的人文专业，我也总是尝试平衡书籍和我自己的阅读时间以及小说的推荐。

I just think it's actually like, sometimes some of the best ideas and inspiration come when you go one or two steps away from the core books that are related to your practice.

我只是认为这实际上就像，有时，当您远离与您的实践相关的核心书籍一两步时，一些最好的想法和灵感就会出现。

Right now, I'm actually rereading Giovanni's Room by James Baldwin.

现在，我实际上正在重读詹姆斯·鲍德温的《乔瓦尼的房间》。

It's just so beautiful and so lyrical and it gets at more components of the human soul that, I know it sounds crazy, but I find like those are little sparks of ideas that ultimately come back into making products, and particularly news products where they're so creative in the way that they tell stories.

它是如此美丽、如此抒情，它触及了人类灵魂的更多组成部分，我知道这听起来很疯狂，但我发现这些都是想法的小火花，最终会回到制作产品中，特别是新闻产品，它们在讲故事的方式上非常有创意。

Alex Hardiman: I always try to give people one pragmatic recommendation and then one slightly more field recommendation over in the world of fiction.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼（Alex Hardiman）：我总是尝试给人们提供一份实用的推荐，然后在小说世界中提供一份稍微多一些的实地推荐。

If you haven't read Giovanni's Room, it is incredible and devastating, and I absolutely recommend it.

如果您还没有读过《乔瓦尼的房间》，那么它令人难以置信且具有毁灭性，我绝对推荐它。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

I feel like I just keep buying books after doing these podcasts.

我觉得在听完这些播客后我会继续买书。

I have so many books I got to read.

我有很多书要读。

I'm also feeling like the combination of books you recommended is exactly what I would imagine someone leading product at New York Times would recommend, something product tactical and then just a beautiful piece of fiction.

我还觉得你推荐的书籍组合正是我想象的《纽约时报》领先产品的人会推荐的，一些产品战术，然后只是一篇美丽的小说。

Lenny: Great.

莱尼：太好了。

No, no, no. I wouldn't put it that way.

不，不，不。我不会这么说。

Okay.

好的。

What's a favorite other podcast that you like to listen to?

您最喜欢听的其他播客是什么？

You mentioned one already, is that the one?

你已经提到了一个，是那个吗？

Alex Hardiman: Everyone should listen to Hard Fork.

Alex Hardiman：每个人都应该听硬分叉。

It's great.

这很棒。

But I just think The Daily continues to be, and again, I know it sounds self-serving, but being able to just listen to Michael Barbaro and Sabrina Tavernise once a day, just bring in journalists to talk and unpack a meaningful story, it's so visceral.

但我只是认为《每日报》仍然如此，而且，我知道这听起来很自私，但是能够每天听一次迈克尔·巴巴罗和萨布丽娜·塔维尼斯的演讲，邀请记者来谈论并解开一个有意义的故事，这真是发自内心的。

I just find it to be one of the daily miracles that the New York Times is able to produce.

我只是发现这是《纽约时报》能够创造的日常奇迹之一。

Lenny: Yeah, that's wild.

莱尼：是啊，这太疯狂了。

I can't imagine a daily thing like that doing that.

我无法想象每天都会做这样的事情。

Impressive.

感人的。

What's a recent favorite movie or TV show that you've seen that you've really enjoyed?

您最近看过并且真正喜欢的最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Alex Hardiman: I am pretty old school.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：我很老派。

I am actually rewatching The Wire for the third time.

事实上，我已经第三次重看《火线》了。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

That's a lot of time commitment.

这是大量的时间投入。

Alex Hardiman: It is.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：是的。

I have very little time, but every five years my husband and I, we just can't get over the characters, the storylines.

我的时间很少，但每隔五年我和我的丈夫就会无法忘记这些角色和故事情节。

It's just one of the best made series for television ever.

这只是有史以来制作最好的电视连续剧之一。

It's a work of art, and so I am that person, that is another cliché, who is rewatching The Wire right now.

这是一件艺术品，所以我就是那个人，这是另一个陈词滥调，现在正在重看《火线》。

Alex Hardiman: I would probably say it's season three, but when Stringer Bell passes away, it's the culmination of just so much.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：我可能会说这是第三季，但当斯金格·贝尔去世时，这就是这么多的高潮。

I probably shouldn't say that for anyone who hasn't seen The Wire.

我可能不应该对那些没有看过《火线》的人这么说。

Oh, that's like the worst thing ever.

哦，这就像有史以来最糟糕的事情。

Lenny: But that's not the character name, that's the actor, right?

莱尼：但这不是角色名字，而是演员，对吧？

Alex Hardiman: No, no, I really just totally spoiled that.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：不，不，我真的完全破坏了这一点。

Lenny: Okay, that's cool.

莱尼：好的，那很酷。

If you haven't seen it at this point, it's over, your loss.

如果你此时还没有看到它，那就结束了，你的损失。

Alex Hardiman: Oh, boy.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：哦，孩子。

How awful.

太糟糕了。

That's like a cardinals sin.

这就像红衣主教的罪孽。

But I do think season four, when it starts to get into the school system is also just, the actors are incredible.

但我确实认为第四季，当它开始进入学校系统时也是公正的，演员们都令人难以置信。

It's some of the best acting that I think has existed over the last couple of decades.

我认为这是过去几十年来最好的表演之一。

Again, if you haven't seen it, please do yourself a favor and watch it.

再次强调，如果您还没有看过，请帮自己一个忙，观看一下。

It's worth every episode.

每一集都值得。

Lenny: Would you agree season two is the worst?

莱尼：你同意第二季是最糟糕的吗？

Alex Hardiman: I thought that until I re-watched it.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：我一直这么认为，直到我重新观看它。

Alex Hardiman: I actually came around and it's not at the top of my list, but there's more to it than I think I originally gave it credit for.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼（Alex Hardiman）：我实际上意识到了，它不在我的清单的首位，但它的意义比我最初认为的要多。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

I like this.

我喜欢这个。

Okay, great.

好的，太好了。

What are four to five SaaS products that you or company uses most that you find really useful?

您或公司最常使用且您认为真正有用的四到五种 SaaS 产品是什么？

Alex Hardiman: Probably pretty classic, we use G-Suite, Slack, Figma, Mode, GitHub.

Alex Hardiman：可能非常经典，我们使用 G-Suite、Slack、Figma、Mode、GitHub。

Those are the ones that I think just get hands down the most amount of usage across our teams.

我认为这些是我们团队中使用量最大的。

Lenny: Is there any interesting new recent one that's like top of mind while we're on this topic?

莱尼：当我们讨论这个话题时，最近有没有什么有趣的新话题是我们首先想到的？

Lenny: Okay, great.

莱尼：好的，太好了。

The winners keep winning, huh?

胜利者继续获胜，是吗？

These products?

这些产品？

Alex Hardiman: Yeah.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：是的。

If anything, it's like when you don't talk about the SaaS products you use, I feel like that's more of a success because it's just, it works behind the scenes, it blends in and it just makes everyone so much more productive.

如果说有什么不同的话，那就是当你不谈论你使用的 SaaS 产品时，我觉得这更成功，因为它只是在幕后工作，它融入其中，而且它只是让每个人都更有生产力。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Imagine all these companies have the New York Times logo on their site of people using that.

想象一下，所有这些公司的网站上都有《纽约时报》的标志，供人们使用。

Lenny: That would be a big deal when you guys adopt a product.

莱尼：当你们采用一种产品时，这将是一件大事。

Final question.

最后一个问题。

Who else in the industry do you most respect as a thought leader and thinker?

作为思想领袖和思想家，您在行业中最尊敬的还有谁？

Alex Hardiman: This is a hard question, but I would say one of the people who I find to just be a really tremendous product thinker, leader, and ally for women is Fidji Simo.

Alex Hardiman：这是一个很难回答的问题，但我想说的是，Fidji Simo 是一位真正出色的产品思想家、领导者和女性盟友。

I was lucky enough to work with her and for her when I was at Facebook and just watching the way that she ...

当我在 Facebook 工作时，我很幸运能够与她一起工作并为她工作，只是看着她......

what she did with Facebook, what she then is doing at Instacart and the way that she really just helps so many other women in the field figure out how to be better at their craft, how to have more opportunity.

她在 Facebook 上做了什么，然后她在 Instacart 做了什么，以及她真正帮助该领域的许多其他女性弄清楚如何提高自己的技能，如何获得更多机会。

I don't know how she has these many hours in her day, but she's pretty incredible, so I would love to give a shout out to her.

我不知道她一天怎么能有这么多时间，但她真是太不可思议了，所以我很想为她大声喝彩。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I will try to get her on this podcast.

我会尽力让她加入这个播客。

Alex Hardiman: Oh, that would be amazing.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：哦，那太棒了。

All right.

好的。

She's really-

她真的是——

Lenny: That's what I need to do.

莱尼：这就是我需要做的。

Awesome.

惊人的。

Good recommendation.

很好的推荐。

Alex, this was amazing.

亚历克斯，这太棒了。

I learned so much.

我学到了很多。

This is such a fun conversation.

这是一次非常有趣的对话。

Thank you, again, for doing this.

再次感谢您这样做。

Two last questions, where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and learn more?

最后两个问题，如果人们想联系并了解更多信息，可以在哪里找到您？

Maybe think about working at the New York Times and otherwise, how can listeners be useful to you?

也许想想在《纽约时报》工作，否则听众怎么能对你有用呢？

Alex Hardiman: Thanks.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：谢谢。

You can find me on Twitter, LinkedIn, all the usual channels.

你可以在 Twitter、LinkedIn 以及所有常用渠道上找到我。

I would love to hear from anyone and would be delighted to also talk about what it's like to do product at the Times.

我很乐意听取任何人的意见，也很高兴谈论在《纽约时报》做产品的感受。

Then, the thing that would be really useful is what is the one feature that would make the New York Times more essential and more valuable to you in your daily life?

那么，真正有用的是，有什么功能可以让《纽约时报》在你的日常生活中变得更重要、更有价值呢？

I would love to hear from people on that front.

我很想听听这方面的人的意见。

Lenny: All right.

莱尼：好吧。

I shared mine, a design-oriented Wirecutter.

我分享了我的，一个以设计为导向的线切割机。

I will be looking for that.

我会寻找那个。

Alex Hardiman: No, of course.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：当然不。

There's just one other whole theme, and I don't know if you want to chat through it, which is, what are some of the similarities and differences between product management in news organization?

还有一个整体主题，不知道大家是否想聊一聊，那就是新闻机构的产品管理有哪些异同？

Alex Hardiman: It's totally up to you.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：这完全取决于你。

But if that's something that you'd be interested in talking through.

但如果这是你有兴趣讨论的事情。

Alex Hardiman: I'm going to just focus on two themes that I think are pretty interesting.

Alex Hardiman：我将只关注两个我认为非常有趣的主题。

The first is just how we work at the New York Times, and we talked a little bit about working with journalism, and there are some really interesting differences.

第一个是我们在《纽约时报》的工作方式，我们讨论了一些与新闻业相关的工作，其中存在一些非常有趣的差异。

The second is just on the idea of impact.

第二个只是关于影响力的想法。

I think how the definition and the understanding of impact can be pretty different.

我认为影响力的定义和理解可能会有很大不同。

First, just on the idea of how we work, there are a lot of similarities.

首先，就我们的工作方式而言，我们有很多相似之处。

I would say that product managers at the Times and at tech companies, they have a lot of the same skills.

我想说，《纽约时报》和科技公司的产品经理拥有很多相同的技能。

Like, we look for a great product sense, great execution, great leadership and drive.

比如，我们寻找出色的产品意识、出色的执行力、出色的领导力和动力。

Alex Hardiman: Any good PM needs to know their industry, their customers, their market, their business, et cetera.

Alex Hardiman：任何优秀的产品经理都需要了解他们的行业、客户、市场、业务等等。

We actually do see a lot of crossover between product managers from tech companies who come to the New York Times or tech PMs at the Times who go over to tech companies.

事实上，我们确实看到了很多来自科技公司的产品经理来到《纽约时报》或《纽约时报》的科技产品经理来到科技公司之间的交叉。

I think that that's wonderful, but a key difference of when you're a product manager working at the New York Times is that you work across the full stack of the product.

我认为这很棒，但与在《纽约时报》工作的产品经理的一个关键区别在于，你要跨整个产品堆栈工作。

Meaning, we own our journalism and our content.

意思是，我们拥有我们的新闻业和我们的内容。

We own our distribution and we own our products.

我们拥有我们的分销权，我们拥有我们的产品。

That's really different from working at a big tech platform.

这与在大型科技平台工作确实不同。

When I was at Facebook, we controlled the software and the distribution, but we didn't control the content.

当我在 Facebook 时，我们控制了软件和分发，但我们无法控制内容。

Alex Hardiman: We had real limitations on understanding what was passing through.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼（Alex Hardiman）：我们在理解正在经历的事情方面确实存在局限性。

Was it high quality content, low quality content?

是高质量内容还是低质量内容？

It just led to, again, a lot of challenges that we already talked about.

它再次带来了我们已经讨论过的许多挑战。

At the Times, when I think about how our best products are born, it's when you bring journalism and product lovers together.

在《泰晤士报》，当我思考我们最好的产品是如何诞生的时候，就是将新闻界和产品爱好者聚集在一起的时候。

That means that PMs at the Times really need to understand the blend of art and science.

这意味着《纽约时报》的PM们确实需要理解艺术与科学的融合。

They really need to value expert editorial judgment as they're also looking at individual KPIs, customer research and insights, et cetera.

他们确实需要重视专家的编辑判断，因为他们也在考虑个人 KPI、客户研究和见解等。

An interesting example, as I was trying to think about what would feel really different doing product at the Times compared to say Facebook is like, let's say you're at the product team and you're working on the home screen.

一个有趣的例子，当我试图思考在《纽约时报》做产品与在 Facebook 做产品相比，会有什么真正不同的感觉，假设你在产品团队，在主屏幕上工作。

Alex Hardiman: We always start with expert editorial judgment to curate the most important and interesting stories.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：我们总是从专家的编辑判断开始，策划最重要、最有趣的故事。

But on top of that, we're training algorithms on specific data sets, like editorial important scores that actually come from our journalists.

但最重要的是，我们正在特定数据集上训练算法，例如实际上来自我们记者的编辑重要分数。

What that allows us to do is actually scale editorial judgment to a large group of readers.

这使我们能够做的实际上是将编辑判断扩展到一大群读者。

Those algorithms, what I think is just really great is they're trained on editorial signal and then they can still work towards driving towards outcomes like reach, engagement, conversion, et cetera.

我认为这些算法的真正伟大之处在于，它们接受了编辑信号的训练，然后它们仍然可以努力实现覆盖率、参与度、转化率等结果。

That's just such a different way of thinking.

这只是一种不同的思维方式。

When I was at Facebook and we were focused on news ranking and feed, all we could do was train pieces of in information based on an engagement outcome.

当我在 Facebook 时，我们专注于新闻排名和提要，我们所能做的就是根据参与结果来训练信息片段。

Alex Hardiman: We couldn't actually train it based on the quality of that piece of information itself.

Alex Hardiman：我们实际上无法根据该信息本身的质量来训练它。

At the Times you get all, you have 2000 plus journalists and you're actually trying to structure their expertise into things that can actually translate into really great algorithmic decisioning, and that's just so different.

在《泰晤士报》，你有 2000 多名记者，你实际上正在尝试将他们的专业知识构建成可以真正转化为真正伟大的算法决策的东西，这就是如此不同。

No one else is really doing something in that space.

没有其他人真正在那个领域做某事。

Product managers are becoming very editorially minded and we're also getting editors to become more product minded.

产品经理变得非常具有编辑意识，我们也让编辑变得更加具有产品意识。

I just think that how we work there is so different and so unique.

我只是认为我们在那里的工作方式如此不同且如此独特。

It's just a pretty fascinating part of, I think, how the sausage is made, if that makes sense.

我认为，如果这有意义的话，这只是香肠制作过程中非常有趣的一部分。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Thanks for sharing that.

感谢您分享这一点。

I think that's really important topic of just how it's different and why it's worth considering trying something like the New York Times as a place to work.

我认为这是一个非常重要的话题，说明它有何不同，以及为什么值得考虑尝试像《纽约时报》这样的公司作为工作场所。

What's interesting about what you're talking about, this also reminds me ironically of Substack, where they also are anti-algorithms and are also very focused on people and people recommending other people and just like individuals.

你所说的有趣之处在于，这也讽刺地让我想起了 Substack，它们也是反算法的，并且也非常关注人和推荐其他人的人，就像个人一样。

I don't know if we want to get into this, but I guess do you have a opinion of Substack as a medium?

我不知道我们是否想讨论这个问题，但我想你对 Substack 作为媒介有什么看法吗？

Because folks leave New York Times to work on Substack, they come back.

因为人们离开《纽约时报》去 Substack 工作，所以他们又回来了。

My whole living is on Substack.

我的全部生活都在 Substack 上。

Any thoughts on the world of Substack?

对 Substack 的世界有什么想法吗？

Alex Hardiman: Well, a couple of things.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：嗯，有几件事。

First, it's not that we're anti-algorithm on the New York Times front, it's just that we want our algorithms to reflect editorial judgment.

首先，并不是说我们在《纽约时报》方面反对算法，只是我们希望我们的算法能够反映编辑判断。

That's really different.

这确实是不同的。

When it comes to Substack, actually, I think a lot of what Substack is doing is great.

事实上，说到 Substack，我认为 Substack 所做的很多事情都很棒。

The idea of writers being able to make a living individually off of their craft, I think, is fantastic.

我认为，作家能够靠自己的手艺谋生，这个想法太棒了。

The thing that I get excited about for Substack, but also for a company like the New York Times is trust right now with institutions has been declining, with governments, with religious institutions, with news organizations.

让我对 Substack 以及像《纽约时报》这样的公司感到兴奋的是，现在人们对机构、政府、宗教机构和新闻机构的信任度一直在下降。

Alex Hardiman: But trust with individual experts, where you have a real relationship, that really matters.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：但是信任个别专家，建立真正的关系，这真的很重要。

That I think is one of the big unlocks in terms of helping the next generation of readers really start to create more of a relationship with high quality journalists and writers who have really important things to say about the world.

我认为这是帮助下一代读者真正开始与高素质记者和作家建立更多关系的重大解锁之一，他们对世界有真正重要的看法。

I think whatever is happening in the world that helps great writers find their audiences, make a living, is wonderful.

我认为世界上发生的任何有助于伟大作家找到读者、谋生的事情都是很棒的。

At the New York Times, a lot of what we're trying to do is, it's not the Substack model, but we have a lot more that we're doing to actually help get individual journalists out there.

在《纽约时报》，我们想做的很多事情不是 Substack 模型，但我们正在做更多的事情来真正帮助个别记者走出去。

Alex Hardiman: They have their own subscribe only newsletters, podcasts.

Alex Hardiman：他们有自己的订阅新闻通讯、播客。

We're really trying to help them find a way to create a mini platform within the means and the scale of the New York Times.

我们确实在努力帮助他们找到一种方法，在《纽约时报》的手段和规模内创建一个迷你平台。

It's not quite the Substack model, but I do think that there's some interesting similarities, and the more that artists and creatives can help make a living, I think, it's just fantastic.

这不完全是 Substack 模型，但我确实认为存在一些有趣的相似之处，而且艺术家和创意人员可以帮助他们谋生，我认为这真是太棒了。

Lenny: I'm here for it.

莱尼：我就是为了这个而来的。

I love this two-part encore bonus we just did.

我喜欢我们刚刚做的这个由两部分组成的加演奖金。

Anything else that you want to share before we wrap up?

在我们结束之前您还有什么想分享的吗？

Alex Hardiman: I think the only other thing that I have come to learn when you're doing product management at a news organization compared to a place like Facebook is just how different the definition of impact can be.

Alex Hardiman：我认为，与 Facebook 这样的地方相比，当你在新闻机构进行产品管理时，我唯一学到的另一件事就是影响力的定义有多么不同。

When I was at Facebook, we were incredibly focused on scale, engagement, and revenue, which is very appropriate.

当我在 Facebook 时，我们非常关注规模、参与度和收入，这是非常合适的。

At a company like the New York Times, we also have a huge ambition to grow our subscriber base.

在《纽约时报》这样的公司，我们也有扩大订户群的雄心。

But one thing that's really interesting is that our impact and our business goals are in service of our mission, which is to seek the truth and help people understand the world, not the other way around.

但真正有趣的一件事是，我们的影响力和业务目标服务于我们的使命，即寻求真相并帮助人们了解世界，而不是相反。

Alex Hardiman: What it means is that the way that we think about impact is growing a giant subscription business.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：这意味着我们考虑影响的方式是发展庞大的订阅业务。

That business exists to strengthen an informed democracy at a time when people are struggling to understand basic facts and struggling to understand each other.

当人们努力了解基本事实并努力相互理解时，这项业务的存在是为了加强知情民主。

That means that impact for us is growing subscribers, but it's also when a deeply reported story triggers an important policy change or a new law.

这意味着对我们的影响是订阅者的增加，但也是当深度报道的故事触发重要的政策变化或新法律时。

When you're a product manager you're involved, again, in driving specific metrics like engagement or subscribers.

当您是产品经理时，您再次参与推动特定指标，例如参与度或订阅者。

Alex Hardiman: But you're also trying to help stories find their real audience in ways that trigger just this whole different side of mission and purpose driven impact.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：但你也试图帮助故事找到真正的受众，从而触发使命和目的驱动影响的完全不同的一面。

I didn't feel that when I was at a place like Facebook, but at the Times, I think it just gives product managers a bit of a broader aperture in the ways that they think about the relationship between business goals and mission impact goals, and it's pretty cool.

当我在 Facebook 这样的地方时，我没有这种感觉，但在《泰晤士报》，我认为这只是让产品经理在思考业务目标和使命影响目标之间关系的方式上有了更广阔的视野，这非常酷。

Lenny: It does feel like it would be hard to find more meaningful, impactful work, and so that really resonates.

莱尼：确实感觉很难找到更有意义、更有影响力的工作，所以这确实引起了共鸣。

Alex Hardiman: Oh, thanks.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：哦，谢谢。

There are so many other important purposeful products and problems out there to solve in the world.

世界上还有许多其他重要的、有目的的产品和问题需要解决。

We've talked about this, Lenny, but I just think that product managers and product thinking in so many contexts inside and outside of tech has never been more important in the world than right now.

莱尼，我们已经讨论过这一点，但我只是认为，在技术内外的许多环境中，产品经理和产品思维在世界上从未像现在这样重要。

We need product managers everywhere diagnosing key problems and issues, coming up with radically novel solutions.

我们需要各地的产品经理诊断关键问题，提出全新的解决方案。

This is the moment.

这就是现在。

It's really great to have your podcast and so many other resources out there to help new and other PMs just do their best craft.

拥有您的播客和如此多的其他资源来帮助新产品经理和其他产品经理尽其所能，真是太好了。

Thank you for having all of us in here.

感谢您邀请我们所有人来到这里。

Lenny: I love that as a closing thought.

莱尼：我喜欢以此作为结束语。

Alex, thank you again so much for doing this.

亚历克斯，再次非常感谢你所做的事情。

Alex Hardiman: Thank you so much, Lenny.

亚历克斯·哈迪曼：非常感谢你，莱尼。

This was really fun.

这真的很有趣。

Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcast、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。