Finding hidden growth opportunities in your product | Albert Cheng (Duolingo, Grammarly, Chess.com)
Albert Cheng: Growth as the job is to connect users to the value of your product.
Albert Cheng：增长的工作就是将用户与产品的价值联系起来。
Growth sometimes gets this reputation that it's just pure metrics hacking.
有时，增长会被认为只是纯粹的指标黑客行为。
Lenny Rachitsky: You've worked at three of the most successful consumer subscription products in the world.
Lenny Rachitsky：您曾参与过世界上最成功的三种消费者订阅产品的工作。
What do you think is the biggest missing piece that people don't get about building a successful consumer subscription product?
您认为人们在构建成功的消费者订阅产品时最大的缺失是什么？
Albert Cheng: User retention is gold for consumer subscription companies.
Albert Cheng：用户保留对于消费者订阅公司来说是黄金。
If you don't retain your users, then a lot of the onus is on getting them to pay on day one.
如果你不能留住你的用户，那么很大一部分责任就是让他们在第一天就付费。
Lenny Rachitsky: Noam Levinsky, he said that I need to ask you about the biggest monetization win that you found at Grammarly.
Lenny Rachitsky：Noam Levinsky，他说我需要问一下你在 Grammarly 发现的最大的盈利胜利。
Albert Cheng: The lived product experience for most of the free users was that Grammarly was just a product to fix your spelling and grammar because those were the free suggestions.
Albert Cheng：大多数免费用户的实际产品体验是，Grammarly 只是一个修复拼写和语法的产品，因为这些是免费建议。
What if we actually sampled a number of different paid suggestions and interspersed them to free users across their writing?
如果我们实际上采样了许多不同的付费建议并将它们散布在免费用户的写作中会怎样？
All of a sudden, people were seeing Grammarly as a much more powerful tool than they were before.
突然之间，人们将 Grammarly 视为比以前更强大的工具。
Lenny Rachitsky: What's the most counterintuitive lesson you've learned about building teams?
Lenny Rachitsky：关于组建团队，您学到的最违反直觉的教训是什么？
Albert Cheng: I saw some of the highest performers just being people that had very high agency, had that clock speed, had that energy, but they didn't necessarily need to have deep experience on that matter.
郑良豪：我看到一些表现最好的人就是那些具有非常高的代理能力、有那样的时钟速度、有那样的能量的人，但他们不一定需要在这件事上有深厚的经验。
Sometimes experience could be a crutch, especially in this world where the grounds are shifting so fast with AI.
有时经验可能是一个拐杖，尤其是在这个人工智能正在快速变化的世界里。
A lot of your learned habits actually need to be intentionally discarded.
你学到的很多习惯实际上都需要有意识地抛弃。
Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Albert Cheng.
Lenny Rachitsky：今天我的客人是 Albert Cheng。
Albert is known as one of the top consumer growth minds in the world.
艾伯特被认为是世界上最顶尖的消费者增长头脑之一。
He led growth and monetization at three of the most successful and beloved consumer products in the world, Duolingo, Grammarly, and now Chess.com.
他领导了世界上最成功和最受欢迎的三种消费产品（Duolingo、Grammarly 和现在的 Chess.com）的增长和货币化。
Earlier in his career at YouTube, he worked on streaming and gaming features used by over 20 million people.
在 YouTube 职业生涯的早期，他致力于开发超过 2000 万人使用的流媒体和游戏功能。
Lenny Rachitsky: His unique approach to growth blends marketing, data, strategy, and product management, and in our conversation, we cover a lot of ground, including his explore and exploit framework to find growth opportunities.
Lenny Rachitsky：他独特的增长方法融合了营销、数据、战略和产品管理，在我们的谈话中，我们涵盖了很多内容，包括他探索和利用框架来寻找增长机会。
His biggest and most interesting growth wins at Duolingo, Grammarly and Chess.com, how he uses AI to accelerate his growth work, what he's come to realize about the power of brand and community in your growth work, his top experimentation, best practices, why his goal at every company is to run 1,000 experiments a year and so much more.
他在 Duolingo、Grammarly 和 Chess.com 上取得的最大、最有趣的成长胜利、他如何使用人工智能来加速他的成长工作、他对品牌和社区在成长工作中的力量的认识、他的顶级实验、最佳实践、为什么他在每家公司的目标是每年进行 1,000 次实验等等。
Lenny Rachitsky: A huge thank you to Erik Allebest, Noam Levinsky, and Jorge Mazal for suggesting topics for this conversation.
Lenny Rachitsky：非常感谢 Erik Allebest、Noam Levinsky 和 Jorge Mazal 为本次对话提出的主题。
If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube, it helps tremendously.
如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它，这会很有帮助。
Also, if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get 15 incredible products for free for an entire year, including Lovable, Replit, Bolt, n8n, Linear, Superhuman, Descript, Wispr Flow, Gamma, Perplexity, Warp, Granola, Magic Patterns, Raycast, ChatPRD and Mobbin.
此外，如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您可以全年免费获得 15 种令人难以置信的产品，包括 Lovable、Replit、Bolt、n8n、Linear、Super human、Descript、Wispr Flow、Gamma、Perplexity、Warp、Granola、Magic Patterns、Raycast、ChatPRD 和 Mobbin。
Lenny Rachitsky: Head on over to lennysnewsletter.com and click Product Pass.
Lenny Rachitsky：前往 lennysnewsletter.com 并单击 Product Pass。
With that, I bring you Albert Chain, my podcast guest tonight love talking about craft and taste and agency and product market fit.
接下来，我为您带来阿尔伯特·链（Albert Chain），我今晚的播客嘉宾喜欢谈论工艺和品味以及代理和产品市场契合度。
You know what we don't love talking about?
你知道我们不喜欢谈论什么吗？
SOC 2.
SOC 2。
That's where Vanta comes in.
这就是万塔登场的地方。
Vanta helps companies of all sizes get complying fast and stay that way with industry-leading AI automation and continuous monitoring.
Vanta 通过行业领先的人工智能自动化和持续监控，帮助各种规模的公司快速实现合规并保持这种状态。
Whether you're a startup, your first SOC 2 or ISO 27001 or an enterprise managing vendor risk, Vanta's trust management platform makes it quicker, easier, and more scalable.
无论您是初创公司、第一个 SOC 2 或 ISO 27001，还是管理供应商风险的企业，Vanta 的信任管理平台都可以让您更快、更轻松且更具可扩展性。
Lenny Rachitsky: Vanta also helps you complete security questionnaires up to five times faster so that you could win bigger deals sooner.
Lenny Rachitsky：Vanta 还可以帮助您以五倍的速度完成安全调查问卷，以便您可以更快地赢得更大的交易。
The result, according to a recent IDC study, Vanta customers slashed over $500,000 a year and are three times more productive.
根据 IDC 最近的一项研究，Vanta 客户每年节省了超过 50 万美元，而生产力却提高了三倍。
Establishing trust isn't optional.
建立信任不是可选的。
Vanta makes it automatic.
Vanta 使其自动化。
Get $1,000 off at Vanta.com/lenny.
访问 Vanta.com/lenny 可享 1,000 美元折扣。
This episode is brought to you by Jira Product Discovery.
本集由 Jira Product Discovery 为您带来。
The hardest part of building products isn't actually building products, it's everything else.
构建产品最困难的部分实际上并不是构建产品，而是其他一切。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's proving that the work matters, managing stakeholders trying to plan ahead.
Lenny Rachitsky：管理利益相关者试图提前计划，这证明了工作的重要性。
Most teams spend more time reacting than learning, chasing updates, justifying roadmaps, and constantly unblocking work to keep things moving.
大多数团队花费更多的时间来做出反应，而不是学习、追求更新、证明路线图的合理性，以及不断地排除工作障碍以保持事情的进展。
Jira Product Discovery puts you back in control.
Jira Product Discovery 让您重新掌控一切。
With Jira Product Discovery, you can capture insights and prioritize high impact ideas.
借助 Jira Product Discovery，您可以捕获见解并优先考虑高影响力的想法。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's flexible so it adapts to the way your team works and helps you build a roadmap that drives alignment, not questions.
Lenny Rachitsky：它很灵活，因此可以适应您团队的工作方式，并帮助您构建一个推动一致性而不是问题的路线图。
And because it's built on Jira, you can track ideas from strategy to delivery all in one place, less chasing, more time to think, learn and build the right thing.
而且由于它基于 Jira 构建，因此您可以在一个地方跟踪从策略到交付的所有想法，减少追逐，有更多时间思考、学习和构建正确的东西。
Get Jira Product Discovery for free at Atlassian.com/lenny, that's Atlassian.com/lenny.
请访问 Atlassian.com/lenny（即 Atlassian.com/lenny）免费获取 Jira Product Discovery。
Albert, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.
艾伯特，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。
Albert Cheng: Thanks for having me, Lenny.
郑良豪：谢谢你邀请我，Lenny。
Excited to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm even more excited to have you here.
Lenny Rachitsky：您的到来让我更加兴奋。
So as I do for every podcast conversation, I reached out to a bunch of people that you've worked with that know you well to find out what to ask you about and what topics to spend time on.
因此，就像我在每次播客对话中所做的那样，我联系了一群与你共事过、非常了解你的人，以了解要问你什么问题以及要花时间在哪些话题上。
Jorge Mazal, who is famous in my world for writing, what was for the longest time, the most popular newsletter post on my newsletter, it's actually people have usurped it now, but it was stuck there for a long time.
Jorge Mazal，在我的世界里以写作而闻名，在我的时事通讯上时间最长、最受欢迎的时事通讯帖子，实际上现在已经被人们篡夺了，但它在那里停留了很长一段时间。
So here's what he wrote.
这就是他写的。
"It is a mystery to me how Albert is able to do what he does.
“对我来说，阿尔伯特如何能够做到他所做的事情是一个谜。
I am actually eager to listen to this episode and learn from him."
我实际上很想听这个节目并向他学习。”
Albert Cheng: That is super nice.
郑良豪：那真是太棒了。
Thank you, Jorge.
谢谢你，豪尔赫。
I've learned so much from him.
我从他身上学到了很多。
I'm the type of weird person that likes to wake up before their kids and pull up a bunch of browser tabs and look at experiments.
我是那种喜欢在孩子之前起床并打开一堆浏览器选项卡并查看实验的奇怪人。
So it was perfect that Jorge brought me into the growth world at Duolingo, learned a ton of best practices, and he's just a great guy.
因此，Jorge 将我带入 Duolingo 的成长世界，学习了大量的最佳实践，这是完美的，他是一个很棒的人。
Thanks, Jorge.
谢谢，豪尔赫。
Lenny Rachitsky: We're already getting into these tactics.
Lenny Rachitsky：我们已经开始采用这些策略了。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
Let me just give a little framing on what I want to do with this conversation.
让我简单介绍一下我想通过这次对话做什么。
What I want to try to do is to help people learn tools and mental models for finding growth opportunities for their own products and essentially learn the growth mentality that you bring into the companies and products that you work on.
我想要尝试做的是帮助人们学习为自己的产品寻找增长机会的工具和思维模型，并从本质上了解你带入你所从事的公司和产品的增长心态。
Lenny Rachitsky: What I want to start with is to give us a little insight into how you became what you became.
Lenny Rachitsky：我首先想让我们了解一下你是如何成为现在的样子的。
There's an interesting pattern I found across a bunch of recent guests, which is many people were very good at piano when they were younger and were very serious piano players.
我在最近的一群客人中发现了一个有趣的模式，即许多人年轻时钢琴非常好，并且是非常认真的钢琴演奏家。
For example, Head of ChatGPT, Nick Turley was almost going to become professional jazz pianist.
例如，ChatGPT 的负责人 Nick Turley 几乎要成为职业爵士钢琴家。
You were very serious as a piano player earlier in your career.
在您职业生涯的早期，您作为一名钢琴演奏家非常认真。
How did you go from pianist to one of the top growth minds in the world briefly?
您是如何从钢琴家短暂地成为世界上最顶尖的成长思想家之一的？
Albert Cheng: Well, that's very flattering, but I appreciate it.
郑良豪：嗯，这真是太受宠若惊了，但我很感激。
Yeah, I grew up playing a lot of piano.
是的，我从小就弹很多钢琴。
My parents were immigrants from Taiwan and I was the oldest kid that they had, and so I definitely felt that strong encouragement, if you will, to learn a bunch of things, take them seriously, study hard, and so I did.
我的父母是来自台湾的移民，我是他们中最大的孩子，所以我确实感受到了强烈的鼓励，如果你愿意的话，去学习很多东西，认真对待它们，努力学习，所以我做到了。
And my parents, even though they weren't musically proficient, they had a deep love for classical music.
而我的父母，尽管他们在音乐上并不精通，但他们却对古典音乐有着深厚的热爱。
Albert Cheng: So I was the stereotypical baby that would listen to Mozart, I guess when I was sleeping type of thing.
郑良豪：所以我是典型的会听莫扎特音乐的婴儿，我想当我睡觉的时候。
And I still vividly remember we had this upright Yamaha piano, and at the very top of the piano we had this countdown clock from 90 minutes.
我仍然清楚地记得我们有一架立式雅马哈钢琴，在钢琴的最顶部我们有一个 90 分钟的倒计时时钟。
Literally every single day of my childhood, just practice really, really consistently.
从字面上看，我童年的每一天，都非常非常坚持地练习。
Albert Cheng: At first, I really was irritated by that thing, but as I grew older, I started to appreciate music quite a bit more.
郑新豪：一开始我确实对那件事很恼火，但随着年龄的增长，我开始更加欣赏音乐了。
But anyway, I think what really accelerated my interest and abilities in piano was I feel like I hit the lottery.
但无论如何，我认为真正加速我对钢琴的兴趣和能力的是我感觉自己中了彩票。
I had perfect pitch, and so I was able to quickly understand whether I was playing the right stuff or the wrong stuff and just pick up music pretty rapidly.
我有完美的音调，所以我能够很快地了解我是否演奏了正确的东西或错误的东西，并且很快地学会了音乐。
Lenny Rachitsky: What does perfect pitch even mean?
Lenny Rachitsky：完美音高到底意味着什么？
Does that mean which note is playing?
这是否意味着正在演奏哪个音符？
Albert Cheng: So I could listen to a song and then just a very, very clear understanding of which note I'm supposed to start with and if I'm playing something wrong.
Albert Cheng：所以我可以听一首歌，然后非常非常清楚地了解我应该从哪个音符开始，以及我是否弹错了什么。
So it's very helpful.
所以这非常有帮助。
Albert Cheng: It's unfair.
郑良豪：这不公平。
Definitely.
确实。
So anyway, yeah, I got quite good as a teenager in high school and even considered studying at a music conservatory.
所以无论如何，是的，我在高中时表现得相当好，甚至考虑过去音乐学院学习。
My intrinsic motivation for music wasn't necessarily as strong at that point, and so I decided to go to engineering school instead, but that would've been an incredibly different career.
那时我对音乐的内在动力不一定那么强烈，所以我决定去工程学校，但这将是一个非常不同的职业。
And to your original point around the relationship between music and growth, I didn't really reflect on this until recently.
至于你关于音乐和成长之间关系的最初观点，直到最近我才真正反思这一点。
Albert Cheng: I have a four-year-old and I'm starting to teach him how to bang on the keys a little bit, but a couple things stand out.
郑良豪：我有一个四岁的孩子，我开始教他如何敲击琴键，但有几件事很突出。
One is that I think music and growth, they both rely on this just consistent repetition.
一是我认为音乐和成长，它们都依赖于这种持续的重复。
You're constantly making mistakes.
你不断地犯错误。
You have this super tight feedback loop.
你有一个非常紧密的反馈循环。
You have to get really resilient to just making mistakes all the time.
你必须对不断犯错误有真正的弹性。
And you know that the way of learning is through those mistakes.
你知道学习的方法就是通过这些错误。
So that's a thing that I learned very early, and the second thing that occurred to me is that they both have this structural underpinning to them.
所以这是我很早就学到的一件事，我想到的第二件事是它们都有这种结构基础。
Albert Cheng: With growth, you have a growth model, you have metrics, you have experiments, you have channels, things like that.
郑良豪：随着增长，你有一个增长模型，你有指标，你有实验，你有渠道，诸如此类的东西。
But you also need on a day-to-day basis to have creativity, you got to come up with interesting solutions or hypotheses to test.
但你也需要在日常工作中发挥创造力，你必须想出有趣的解决方案或假设来测试。
And the same is true on the music side.
音乐方面也是如此。
You have music theory of scales and stuff, but to create beautiful music, you need that passion, that emotion, that flow.
你有音阶之类的音乐理论，但要创造优美的音乐，你需要那种激情、那种情感、那种流动。
So I think that's the beautiful combination between the two.
所以我认为这就是两者之间的美妙结合。
Lenny Rachitsky: Fun fact, my wife bought me piano/singing lessons for Father's Day recently, and I've gotten really into this stuff.
Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是，我妻子最近为我父亲节买了钢琴/歌唱课，我真的很喜欢这些东西。
So I'm learning how to play very basic piano now and learning to identify notes and hit notes with my voice.
所以我现在正在学习如何弹奏非常基本的钢琴，并学习识别音符并用我的声音敲击音符。
Lenny Rachitsky: It could be.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：有可能。
I could go the reverse, I could become a professional piano player.
我可以反过来，我可以成为一名职业钢琴演奏家。
Oh man.
噢，伙计。
No, it's so fun, so hard though.
不，虽然很有趣，但也很难。
I'm just like, my fingers are like, how do you do four freaking keys at once?
我就像，我的手指就像，你如何同时按下四个该死的键？
I'm just like "What is going on here?" Okay, so let's get into the meat of it.
我只是想“这里发生了什么事？”好吧，让我们进入正题吧。
I want to talk about growth.
我想谈谈成长。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's a very specific framework that as we were chatting that I think would be really helpful for people to hear and learn from you.
Lenny Rachitsky：当我们聊天时，有一个非常具体的框架，我认为这对于人们听到你的声音并向你学习非常有帮助。
You call it explore and exploit.
你称之为探索和利用。
I think there's a bunch of different ways to think about this.
我认为有很多不同的方式来思考这个问题。
Talk about this framework and how that informs the way you think about growth.
谈论这个框架以及它如何影响您对增长的思考方式。
Albert Cheng: Yeah, I initially came up or heard with, heard about explore and exploit through my engineering partner at Grammarly, Nermal, and I think he actually had taken some reforged classes.
Albert Cheng：是的，我最初是通过我在 Grammarly、Nermal 的工程合作伙伴想到或听说探索和利用的，我认为他实际上已经参加了一些重新设计的课程。
So maybe the original inventor of it might be Brian Balfour, who I know has been on your pod.
所以它的最初发明者可能是布莱恩·贝尔福（Brian Balfour），我知道他就在你的 Pod 上。
But anyway, it's a great concept.
但无论如何，这是一个很棒的概念。
Albert Cheng: The gist of it is that when you're in exploratory mode, think of it as finding the right mountain to climb.
郑良豪：要点是，当你处于探索模式时，把它想象成找到合适的山峰去攀登。
And then when you're in exploitation mode, it's like focusing your resources on climbing that mountain effectively.
然后，当你处于剥削模式时，就像集中你的资源来有效地攀登那座山一样。
And certain companies, I think the warning is to basically spend too much of your time on one end of the spectrum.
对于某些公司，我认为警告基本上是在这一范围的一端花费太多时间。
If you do too much exploration, you can have your team feel a little bit too scattershot, just trying a hundred different random ideas.
如果你进行过多的探索，你可能会让你的团队感觉有点过于分散，只是尝试了一百种不同的随机想法。
Albert Cheng: What's the through line?
郑良豪：直通线路是什么？
What's the strategy?
策略是什么？
How do you pattern match successes across them?
您如何在它们之间进行模式匹配的成功？
And if you do too much in exploitation, which is often the MO of growth teams, it can lead to this saturation and stagnation where you're just locally maximizing a thing.
如果你在开发方面做得太多（这通常是增长团队的MO），它可能会导致饱和和停滞，而你只是在局部最大化某件事。
And even though this principle of explore and exploit, it's typically thought of as a macro thing.
尽管有这种探索和利用的原则，但它通常被认为是一个宏观的事情。
I like to work with my teams more on the insight level.
我更喜欢在洞察层面上与我的团队合作。
So I'll give you a concrete example.
那么我给你举一个具体的例子。
Albert Cheng: So I work at chess.com and one of our priorities is to encourage chess players to improve, to learn and improve.
Albert Cheng：我在 chess.com 工作，我们的首要任务之一是鼓励棋手提高、学习和提高。
So one of the PMs that we have, Dylan, he works on all the learning features.
我们的产品经理之一迪伦（Dylan）负责所有学习功能的工作。
The most used learning feature in our product is called game review.
我们产品中最常用的学习功能称为游戏评论。
So you play a game of chess, after the game is over, we have this virtual coach that teaches you about your worst moves, best moves, et cetera.
所以你玩一盘国际象棋，游戏结束后，我们有一个虚拟教练来教你最差的走法、最好的走法等等。
And his job is to improve user engagement and retention.
他的工作是提高用户参与度和保留率。
Albert Cheng: And so he's in this exploratory phase trying to figure out how do I drive more of that type of activity?
Albert Cheng：所以他正处于探索阶段，试图弄清楚我如何推动更多此类活动？
And what he observes is that 80% of people that review their games actually do so after a win.
他观察到，80% 的人会在获胜后回顾自己的比赛。
And that's really counterintuitive to when we initially built the feature.
这与我们最初构建该功能时的直觉完全相反。
We thought that people would want to use it after losses or to see their mistakes such they could work on their mistakes.
我们认为人们会在损失之后想要使用它，或者看到他们的错误，这样他们就可以纠正他们的错误。
That turned out not to be the truth when it came to the human psychology and the actual data of it.
当涉及到人类心理及其实际数据时，事实证明这并不是事实。
And so we made some changes in the product experience.
因此我们对产品体验做了一些改变。
Albert Cheng: When you lose a game now as opposed to surfacing your blunders and your horrible stuff that you did, we flip it on its head and so we show you your brilliant moves, your best moves, and we have coach say something encouraging, "Losing, just part of learning, keep it up." That type of thing.
郑良豪：当你现在输掉一场比赛，而不是揭露你的错误和你所做的可怕的事情时，我们会把它颠倒过来，所以我们向你展示你的精彩动作，你最好的动作，我们让教练说一些鼓励的话，“输球，只是学习的一部分，坚持下去。”那种事。
That change alone was pretty dramatic for us.
仅这一变化对我们来说就相当戏剧性了。
Albert Cheng: It grew game reviews by 25%, subscriptions by 20%, user retention by a lot as well.
Albert Cheng：游戏评论增加了 25%，订阅量增加了 20%，用户保留率也增加了很多。
So that was fantastic, but the point is that it doesn't just stop there.
这太棒了，但重点是它不仅仅止于此。
You have to take that insight, share it broadly across the company.
你必须吸收这种洞察力，并在整个公司范围内广泛分享。
Now, adjacent product managers like the PM working on puzzles can now think about, "Okay, how do I audit these cold patterns in my product and think about making them more positive?"
现在，像负责解决难题的产品经理这样的相邻产品经理现在可以思考：“好吧，我如何审核产品中的这些冷模式，并考虑让它们变得更加积极？”
Albert Cheng: I can change the success rating, I could tweak some copy, change the color of some buttons, and so you now can take this experiment win and expand it out 10X across your organization and that's the kind of exploitation phase of it.
Albert Cheng：我可以改变成功评级，我可以调整一些副本，改变一些按钮的颜色，所以你现在可以赢得这个实验，并将其在你的组织中扩展 10 倍，这就是它的利用阶段。
So when done right, you can oscillate between the two until you saturate out of exploitation mode and then you encourage the teams to brainstorm and get more creative again.
因此，如果做得正确，您可以在两者之间摇摆，直到您摆脱剥削模式，然后鼓励团队集思广益并再次发挥更多创造力。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Okay, so there's a lot here to follow up on.
好的，这里有很多事情需要跟进。
One is the core piece of advice when you find something that works really well, find ways to build on that learning.
当你发现一些非常有效的东西时，最核心的建议是找到在学习的基础上继续学习的方法。
One is here's an insight, it can apply to other parts of the product.
这是一个见解，它可以应用于产品的其他部分。
"Hey teams, here's something we learned unexpected.
“嘿，团队，这是我们意想不到的事情。
Maybe this can help you.
也许这可以帮助你。
Also, just keep find more, run more experiments in the same zone." I imagine is a part of that.
另外，继续寻找更多，在同一区域进行更多实验。”我想这是其中的一部分。
Albert Cheng: Yeah, exactly right.
郑良豪： 是的，完全正确。
In my experience, the typical win rate, and I hate to use that term for experiments, is often something like 30 to 50%.
根据我的经验，典型的胜率（我讨厌在实验中使用这个术语）通常约为 30% 到 50%。
Usually you're trying a bunch of things, a lot of hypotheses turn out not to be true, consumer products are very unpredictable like that, but when you do find a thing that breaks through the noise, and it could actually be a hugely losing experiment too, those are also super valuable.
通常你会尝试很多东西，很多假设都被证明是不正确的，消费产品是非常不可预测的，但是当你确实找到一个突破噪音的东西时，它实际上也可能是一个巨大失败的实验，这些也非常有价值。
Albert Cheng: Surfacing those across the company, the original PM running that experiment doesn't necessarily need to be the person that figures out what you should do for all the other parts of your product experience, but the onus is on them to clearly articulate what their hypothesis is, what they found such that then as a growth leader, I can encourage people to swarm around that and try a bunch of different ideas such that the success rate is up and the impact is up.
Albert Cheng：在整个公司中，进行该实验的最初的 PM 不一定是弄清楚你应该为产品体验的所有其他部分做什么的人，但他们有责任清楚地阐明他们的假设是什么，他们发现了什么，然后作为增长领导者，我可以鼓励人们蜂拥而至并尝试一堆不同的想法，从而提高成功率和影响力。
So it's just oscillating back and forth between the two.
所以它只是在两者之间来回摆动。
That is the magic bullet.
这就是神奇的子弹。
Lenny Rachitsky: I think another takeaway here/something that I think about when I hear what you're saying is there's often a lot more wins in an area than people expect that you can continue to find wins and growth in something for a long time.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这里的另一个要点/当我听到你所说的话时我想到的事情是，一个领域中的胜利往往比人们预期的要多得多，你可以在很长一段时间内继续在某件事上找到胜利和增长。
Albert Cheng: Exactly right.
郑新豪：完全正确。
Yes.
是的。
At the end of the day, users, I think within a company sometimes you can have this siloed approach where you break apart the product experience in 50 different ways and distribute them across different teams, and you assume that users interact with each of the different features with a different mentality, but oftentimes that's actually not necessarily the case.
归根结底，用户，我认为在公司内部，有时你可以采用这种孤立的方法，以 50 种不同的方式分解产品体验，并将它们分布在不同的团队中，并且你假设用户以不同的心态与每个不同的功能进行交互，但通常情况并非一定如此。
And so sometimes, you can surface an insight that's more human psychology based that can resonate across the entire product experience.
因此，有时，您可以提出一种更基于人类心理学的见解，可以在整个产品体验中产生共鸣。
And so I think when you can find that, you can double down.
所以我认为当你能找到这一点时，你就可以加倍努力。
Lenny Rachitsky: People hearing this might feel like, "Okay, yes, find big wins and then find more." Is there something you find that helps you figure out when to explore versus when to exploit when you've exploited too far?
Lenny Rachitsky：听到这句话的人可能会觉得，“好吧，是的，找到大胜利，然后找到更多。”您发现有什么东西可以帮助您弄清楚何时探索以及何时利用（当您利用过度时）？
Just like any heuristics or I don't know, ways of helping people guide them along this process of exploring and exploiting?
就像任何启发式或我不知道的那样，如何帮助人们引导他们沿着探索和利用的过程？
Albert Cheng: One thing that I try to focus on at a company of our scale of a chess.com, right?
Albert Cheng：在像 chess.com 这样规模的公司里，我会努力关注一件事，对吗？
We're running roughly 250 experiments a year.
我们每年进行大约 250 次实验。
So we're not the highest in the industry, but we run a decent volume.
所以我们不是行业中最高的，但我们的销量还不错。
And so when that happens, I invest in these experiment explorer tools and we can talk about AI as well as another way to uncover and pick out these nuggets of wisdom, but basically, these explorer tools can allow me to look across the spectrum of experiments that are going on.
因此，当这种情况发生时，我会投资这些实验浏览器工具，我们可以讨论人工智能以及另一种发现和挑选这些智慧金块的方法，但基本上，这些浏览器工具可以让我纵观正在进行的各种实验。
Albert Cheng: Try to figure out if there are patterns between the hypotheses and the learnings that are happening.
Albert Cheng：尝试找出假设和正在发生的学习之间是否存在模式。
And if I'm starting to see more and more experiments that are not statistically significant, that may be a signal to me to say, "Okay, we might've tried to exploit a little bit too far.
如果我开始看到越来越多的实验在统计上不显着，这可能是一个信号，让我说：“好吧，我们可能试图利用得有点过头了。
There might not be as much juice to squeeze.
可能没有那么多果汁可以榨。
Hey guys, let's get back to the table and brainstorm and be a little bit more divergent with our thinking."
嘿伙计们，让我们回到谈判桌上集思广益，让我们的想法更加不同。”
Lenny Rachitsky: Well, let me follow this thread on AI and how you're using AI to help you figure this out.
Lenny Rachitsky：好吧，让我关注一下关于人工智能的话题，以及你如何使用人工智能来帮助你解决这个问题。
That is very cool.
这非常酷。
Talk about that.
谈谈那个。
Albert Cheng: I think one of the latest things that we've been tinkering around with is this text to SQL capability.
Albert Cheng：我认为我们一直在修改的最新内容之一就是文本到 SQL 的功能。
It's actually pretty powerful.
它实际上非常强大。
We have this data request Slack channel where for the longest time, and this is still true today, people will toss in all sorts of just one-off questions.
我们有这个数据请求 Slack 通道的时间最长，今天仍然如此，人们会抛出各种一次性的问题。
How many subscribers do we have in South Africa?
我们在南非有多少订户？
Or how long did somebody play puzzles last month or something?
或者有人上个月玩拼图游戏多久了？
Albert Cheng: And these ad hoc questions, they often take a lot of human time to just go in and a data analyst needs to prioritize it and find time to go run the query.
Albert Cheng：这些临时问题通常需要花费大量的人力时间才能进入，数据分析师需要对其进行优先级排序并找到时间来运行查询。
And yes, you can invest in self-serve tooling to improve at this, but also I found that AI is quite good at doing that first pass answer as well.
是的，你可以投资自助工具来改进这一点，但我也发现人工智能也非常擅长做第一次通过的答案。
And so we're working on training some of these Slack bots to essentially be the first party provider of a lot of these answers, which makes the company as a whole lot more data informed, I guess.
因此，我们正在努力培训其中一些 Slack 机器人，使其本质上成为许多此类答案的第一方提供者，我想这使得整个公司能够获得更多的数据信息。
Albert Cheng: And I think what's also kind of interesting is that just human nature is that if you have a question that you feel like you might be a bit embarrassed to ask or you don't want to bother someone, you just don't ask the question.
郑良豪：我认为有趣的是，人性就是，如果你觉得提问有点尴尬，或者你不想打扰别人，你就不会问这个问题。
And so by the nature of having these tools, you get actually a pretty large explosion of questions being asked.
因此，根据这些工具的性质，您实际上会收到大量的问题。
And I think you see this in ChatGPT too, right?
我想您在 ChatGPT 中也看到了这一点，对吧？
It's like just having a thing that you can converse with that you feel comfortable in makes a huge difference.
这就像只要有一件你可以与之交谈、让你感到舒服的东西就会产生巨大的变化。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, this is extremely cool.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，这非常酷。
So is this something you build basically it's a Slack bot that gives you the SQL query or does it actually do the analysis for you?
那么，这基本上是您构建的东西吗？它是一个为您提供 SQL 查询的 Slack 机器人，还是它实际上为您进行分析？
Albert Cheng: No, it does the analysis.
郑良豪：不，它做的是分析。
Yeah.
是的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Whoa, so cool.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇，太酷了。
Okay.
好的。
Is this something you guys are going to release or is this just like somebody, you guys should just build this at every company?
这是你们要发布的东西，还是就像某人一样，你们应该在每家公司都构建这个？
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
Okay.
好的。
Well, there's an episode where everyone in the comments is like, "Open source this." So we'll see if that happens again.
嗯，有一集评论中的每个人都在说，“开源这个。”所以我们会看看这种情况是否会再次发生。
That is very cool.
这非常酷。
Are there other examples of that kind of stuff that you've done or seen?
您做过或见过的此类事情还有其他例子吗？
Albert Cheng: An adjacent example is a lot of the product managers, we're tinkering around with all sorts of different prototyping tools right now.
Albert Cheng：一个相邻的例子是很多产品经理，我们现在正在研究各种不同的原型工具。
It's just like go from an idea to a representative solution.
这就像从一个想法到一个有代表性的解决方案。
Today, there's a lot of humans involved in taking an idea, writing up a spec, doing a review, doing design, et cetera.
如今，有很多人参与提出想法、编写规范、进行审查、进行设计等等。
I'm sure you've interviewed plenty of people that have talked about this specific problem.
我确信您采访过很多人，他们都讨论过这个具体问题。
Albert Cheng: And so for us, we've invested a bit in at least carving out the main screens of our product experience, things like our onboarding flow, our home screen, our chessboard as an example, and building essentially AI prototypes of those using tools like a V0 or a Lovable.
Albert Cheng：对于我们来说，我们至少投入了一些精力来打造产品体验的主屏幕，例如我们的入门流程、主屏幕、棋盘等，并使用 V0 或 Lovable 等工具构建本质上的人工智能原型。
And when you have those foundational pieces, you can then share them with the rest of the company and they can use that as a starting point and then they can try to put their ideas on top of that and then they become a lot more discussable and hopefully testable relatively soon.
当你有了这些基础部分后，你就可以与公司的其他人分享它们，他们可以以此为起点，然后他们可以尝试将自己的想法置于此之上，然后它们就会变得更容易讨论，并且希望能够很快进行测试。
Lenny Rachitsky: What's in your AI stack along those lines?
Lenny Rachitsky：您的 AI 堆栈中有哪些内容？
Albert Cheng: The PMs are mostly using V0.
郑良豪：PM们大多使用V0。
The designers love Figmas, they're using Figma Make.
设计师喜欢 Figmas，他们使用 Figma Make。
The engineers are using a combination of tools right now.
工程师们现在正在使用多种工具的组合。
So Cursor, Cloud Code, GitHub, Copilot.
所以 Cursor、云代码、GitHub、Copilot。
Marketing teams use all sorts of tools for translation, subtitles, content adaptations, et cetera.
营销团队使用各种工具进行翻译、字幕、内容改编等。
Customers support uses Intercom then.
然后客户支持使用 Intercom。
So there's quite a lot of tools that are used across the company.
因此，整个公司使用了相当多的工具。
Albert Cheng: I would say though that something that is annoying to me is that we haven't yet figured out the bridging from the tinkering to the workflow quite as seamlessly as I would like.
Albert Cheng：我想说的是，令我烦恼的是，我们还没有像我希望的那样无缝地找到从修补到工作流程的桥梁。
And so each sub-function, even though the common I guess wisdom now is that AI is going to strip away these functional titles.
因此，每个子功能，尽管我认为现在普遍的看法是人工智能将剥夺这些功能标题。
It is true that based on your experience, you may gravitate to using a type of tool more.
确实，根据您的经验，您可能会更倾向于使用某种类型的工具。
And if that tool isn't as interoperable with some of the other tools that you need to pass down the chain to actually ship it into production, at least at our scale.
如果该工具不能与其他一些工具进行互操作，那么您需要将其传递到生产链中以实际将其投入生产，至少在我们的规模上是这样。
Albert Cheng: I think for smaller startups, sure, PMs should just go ship it, but for us, we are still doing some handoffs between functions.
Albert Cheng：我认为对于规模较小的初创公司来说，当然，PM 应该直接交付它，但对于我们来说，我们仍然在职能之间进行一些交接。
I expect that to change over time and we are investing in some of design system components and MCPs and stuff to make it a little bit easier.
我预计这种情况会随着时间的推移而改变，我们正在投资一些设计系统组件和 MCP 等东西，以使其变得更容易一些。
But yeah, it's an investment and it takes time to smooth things out.
但是，是的，这是一项投资，需要时间来解决问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: I want to come back to this topic of how things have changed and how you work as a product person, as a growth person across the companies you've been at.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想回到这个主题，即事情发生了怎样的变化，以及你作为产品人员、作为你所在公司的成长人员如何工作。
But first of all, I want to talk about another example of finding growth wins and monetization wins.
但首先，我想谈谈寻找增长胜利和货币化胜利的另一个例子。
Noam Levinsky, who is Chief Product Officer at Grammarly, you worked with him for a while while you were at Grammarly.
诺姆·莱文斯基 (Noam Levinsky) 是 Grammarly 的首席产品官，您在 Grammarly 期间曾与他共事过一段时间。
He said that I need to ask you about the biggest monetization win that you found at Grammarly and how you discovered the opportunity.
他说我需要问你在 Grammarly 发现的最大的盈利胜利以及你是如何发现这个机会的。
Albert Cheng: I had the pleasure of working with Noam and his product team at Grammarly.
Albert Cheng：我很高兴与 Noam 及其在 Grammarly 的产品团队合作。
Some context first for those that don't use Grammarly.
首先为那些不使用 Grammarly 的人提供一些上下文。
So Grammarly is an AI-powered writing assistant.
所以 Grammarly 是一个人工智能驱动的写作助手。
And so typically, people will use it as a Chrome extension or a downloadable desktop client.
因此，人们通常会将其用作 Chrome 扩展程序或可下载的桌面客户端。
And basically what it does is it overlays your writing with a bunch of different-
基本上它的作用就是用一堆不同的东西覆盖你的写作——
Lenny Rachitsky: I use it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我用它。
I'm a big fan.
我是它的忠实粉丝。
I use it-
我用它-
Albert Cheng: Correction, so you're a big fan.
郑良豪：更正一下，你是个超级粉丝。
Albert Cheng: Fantastic.
郑良豪：太棒了。
Glad to hear that.
很高兴听到这个消息。
Grammarly is a freemium business model, which means that over 90% of our users are on the free service and the rest of it pay for subscriptions essentially, right?
Grammarly 是一种免费增值商业模式，这意味着我们 90% 以上的用户使用免费服务，其余用户基本上需要付费订阅，对吗？
And so one of the teams, they work on subscriber conversion, PM there is Kayla, that team is great and their job is to figure out the free to paid subscription path.
其中一个团队致力于订阅者转化，PM 是 Kayla，这个团队很棒，他们的工作就是找出免费到付费订阅的路径。
Albert Cheng: And so one of the realizations, one, is that we weren't actually tracking the events that well for the types of essentially suggestions that people were getting and how often were users seeing paywalls and stuff like that.
Albert Cheng：因此，认识之一是，我们实际上并没有很好地跟踪事件，了解人们获得的基本建议类型以及用户看到付费专区和类似内容的频率。
That's kind of step number one.
这是第一步。
We have to put that instrumentation in.
我们必须把仪器放进去。
Step number two is that, "Hey, we noticed, actually first let me explain some of the logic."
第二步是，“嘿，我们注意到，实际上首先让我解释一些逻辑。”
Albert Cheng: So as a free user, you basically get these underlines across your writing and if you accept all of them, then you see the paywall and that encourages you to subscribe for more nuanced features.
Albert Cheng：作为一个免费用户，你基本上会在你的写作中得到这些下划线，如果你接受所有这些下划线，那么你就会看到付费专区，这会鼓励你订阅更细致的功能。
As a free user, the main things you get are spelling, grammar, they're basically correctness things.
作为免费用户，你得到的主要内容是拼写、语法，它们基本上是正确性的东西。
And as a paid user you get that, how do you improve your tone to be more empathetic?
作为一名付费用户，你会明白这一点，你如何改善你的语气，变得更有同理心？
How do you improve your writing to be more clear?
你如何改进你的写作，使其更加清晰？
Albert Cheng: How can you rewrite entire sentences, that type of thing.
郑良豪：你怎么能重写整个句子，诸如此类的事情。
And so the observed behavior from all that tracking and data was that actually a very small percentage of our free users was deciding to accept all of their suggestions.
因此，从所有跟踪和数据中观察到的行为是，实际上我们的免费用户中只有很小一部分决定接受他们的所有建议。
They were more picking and choosing as they go, and I wonder if your experience is kind of similar too.
他们在做事时更加挑剔，不知道你的经历是否也有类似的情况。
Lenny Rachitsky: Definitely, yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：当然，是的。
I'm always like, "Wait, stop rewriting everything." Just like this part is wrong.
我总是说，“等等，别再重写一切了。”就像这部分是错误的一样。
I will fix it.
我会修复它。
Yeah, I'm very much a pick and choose.
是的，我非常喜欢挑选。
Albert Cheng: And then the second thing, which is I think equally if not more interesting is that I was at this company during this generative AI transformation, which is obviously still going on.
Albert Cheng：第二件事，我认为同样有趣的是，我在这家公司经历了生成式人工智能转型，这显然仍在继续。
And quite frankly, both the company brand as well as the lived product experience for most of the free users was that Grammarly was just a product to fix your spelling and grammar because those were the free suggestions we were showing people.
坦率地说，无论是公司品牌还是大多数免费用户的实际产品体验，Grammarly 只是一个修复拼写和语法的产品，因为这些是我们向人们展示的免费建议。
Albert Cheng: And so we decided to flip that on its head entirely and we said, "Okay, what if we actually sampled a number of different paid suggestions and interspersed them to free users across their writing?" Such that they were intermingled and we would provide a limited taste of what the paid offering had to provide.
Albert Cheng：所以我们决定完全颠覆这一点，我们说：“好吧，如果我们实际上采样了许多不同的付费建议并将它们散布到免费用户的写作中，会怎么样？”这样它们就混合在一起了，我们只能提供付费产品必须提供的有限体验。
And on the surface, even though it's rational, the concern is that if we give too much of this away, then will people want to subscribe?
从表面上看，尽管这是理性的，但令人担忧的是，如果我们放弃太多，那么人们会愿意订阅吗？
Albert Cheng: And we found completely that was not the case all of a sudden, people were seeing Grammarly as a much more powerful tool than they were before and our upgrade rates nearly doubled just through this change.
Albert Cheng：我们突然发现情况并非如此，人们将 Grammarly 视为比以前更强大的工具，并且通过这一变化，我们的升级率几乎翻了一番。
And so I think this is interesting, just modernization learning that especially if you work on a freemium product, try to have your free product be a reflection of everything that your product can offer you.
所以我认为这很有趣，只是现代化学习，特别是如果您从事免费增值产品，请尝试让您的免费产品反映您的产品可以为您提供的一切。
Obviously to an extent there's some costs involved with some of the paid features and things like that, but it generally will pay for itself if you're able to put your best foot forward and go do that.
显然，在某种程度上，某些付费功能和类似的事情涉及一些成本，但如果您能够尽最大努力并去做的话，通常会收回成本。
So that really worked well for us there.
所以这对我们来说确实很有效。
Lenny Rachitsky: I think this is what converted me to being a paid Grammarly subscriber.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这就是我成为 Grammarly 付费订阅者的原因。
Wow, what a genius move.
哇，真是天才之举。
So essentially, it's here's a bunch of improvements, but you get three, I think max, and then it's like, "Okay, now you get upgrade."
所以本质上，这里有很多改进，但我认为最多可以得到三个，然后就像是，“好吧，现在你可以升级了。”
Albert Cheng: It's basically a reverse free trial but in real time while you're writing as opposed to a time-based one.
Albert Cheng：这基本上是一种反向免费试用，但是是在您写作时实时进行的，而不是基于时间的试用。
So we adopted some patterns that are in the industry, but molded it to Grammarly's specific use case.
因此，我们采用了行业中的一些模式，但将其塑造为 Grammarly 的特定用例。
Lenny Rachitsky: Right.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：对。
I was going to ask, so it's not like a full trial, it's like a capped trial where you get a certain number of things and then you run out and then they get refreshed.
我正想问，所以这不像是完整的试用版，这就像一个有上限的试用版，你会得到一定数量的东西，然后你用完，然后它们就会刷新。
I think once a day or something like that is what I found.
我想我发现每天一次或类似的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
Grammarly is the best/most devious at their upsells.
Grammarly 的追加销售是最好/最狡猾的。
I'm always just like, "God damn it, I'm so close to seeing an improvement, I just have to upgrade." And it's right there, it's right there where my mouse is.
我总是会说，“该死的，我已经快要看到进步了，我只需要升级。”它就在那里，就在我的鼠标所在的地方。
Albert Cheng: Yeah, well, I'm not proud of being devious, but.
郑良豪：是的，嗯，我并不以狡猾为荣，但是。
Lenny Rachitsky: In really getting me to buy the thing.
Lenny Rachitsky：真正让我买这个东西。
Good job.
好工作。
What was it?
那是什么？
Kayla?
凯拉？
Okay, nice job Kayla.
好的，干得好，凯拉。
It's very effective.
这非常有效。
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
Okay, so in terms of the free trial, I don't know, is there anything there of just, there's always this question of freemium, give things away and then there's pro account, there's like trial versus time.
好吧，就免费试用而言，我不知道有没有什么，总是存在免费增值的问题，赠送东西，然后有专业帐户，就像试用与时间的关系。
Some features are limited.
某些功能受到限制。
I don't know, do you have for consumer subscription products like here's the way to go?
我不知道，你们有像这样的消费者订阅产品吗？
Albert Cheng: Yeah, I think first of all, why do freemium subscription in the first place is a common question that I've joined all these companies that are freemium subscription.
Albert Cheng：是的，我认为首先，为什么要进行免费增值订阅是一个常见问题，我加入了所有这些免费增值订阅的公司。
What do I like about it I guess?
我猜我喜欢它什么？
Well one, I think it ties really nicely to mission orientation of a lot of these companies.
第一，我认为这与许多此类公司的使命导向密切相关。
It's often like you want to spread the product as wide as possible because that's why the founders built the thing, right?
通常你想尽可能广泛地传播产品，因为这就是创始人构建这个产品的原因，对吗？
Albert Cheng: You're trying to improve education with Duolingo or Grammarly or Chess.com, these are meant to be widespread products with a really wide value proposition that fits globally.
Albert Cheng：你正试图通过 Duolingo、Grammarly 或 Chess.com 来改善教育，这些产品旨在成为具有广泛价值主张、适合全球的广泛产品。
And so obviously, the lowest friction to that is going to be a free product.
很明显，最小的摩擦将是免费产品。
So that alone is part of it.
所以这本身就是其中的一部分。
Another part of it is that a lot of these products primarily grow through word of mouth and especially if you can build network effects in the product, like Duolingo has a bunch of social features or with Grammarly, they have a bit of a B2C2B play as well.
另一部分是，许多此类产品主要通过口碑增长，特别是如果您可以在产品中建立网络效应，例如 Duolingo 拥有大量社交功能或 Grammarly，它们也具有一定的 B2C2B 功能。
Albert Cheng: So you see Grammarly being used by teams and by companies and whatnot, and even if users are on the free plan, they still provide quite a lot of value in making sure that Grammarly can be purchased by a coworker or by a team member or whatever.
Albert Cheng：所以你会看到 Grammarly 被团队和公司等使用，即使用户使用免费计划，他们仍然提供相当多的价值，以确保同事或团队成员或其他人可以购买 Grammarly。
So I think these things are usually why I lean toward make sure that the core value proposition that you're providing users is free and is permanently free and then you layer on a sampling or a taste of some of the premium features that are on top of it.
所以我认为这些事情通常就是为什么我倾向于确保你为用户提供的核心价值主张是免费的并且是永久免费的，然后你可以分层采样或体验其之上的一些高级功能。
That's usually the sweet spot that I've seen.
这通常是我见过的最甜蜜的地方。
Albert Cheng: As to the trials, reverse trials type of thing, I think it largely depends.
郑良豪：至于试验、反向试验之类的事情，我认为这很大程度上取决于情况。
I think if you have especially a B2B feature where you may have some lock-in, reverse trials can be super powerful.
我认为，如果你有一个 B2B 功能，并且可能有一些锁定，那么逆向试验可能会非常强大。
You just want to get people in there.
你只是想让人们进去。
You don't need to ask for their credit card because they're using your CRM or they're investing quite a lot of time in building out material and content.
您无需索要他们的信用卡，因为他们正在使用您的 CRM，或者他们投入了大量时间来构建材料和内容。
And so by the time that window drops, you actually feel, "Oh man, I probably should keep this and start paying." I think for a lot of consumer products it's a little bit harder for that to work.
因此，当窗口下降时，您实际上会觉得，“天哪，我可能应该保留这个并开始付款。”我认为对于很多消费品来说，这有点难以发挥作用。
And so I've typically seen more just normal free trials be the norm.
因此，我通常看到更多只是正常的免费试用成为常态。
Lenny Rachitsky: Let me follow this thread of just consumer subscription products.
Lenny Rachitsky：让我来关注消费者订阅产品的这条线索。
I feel like this is the category that every indie developer dreams of building a product in because it's easy to build.
我觉得这是每个独立开发者都梦想构建产品的类别，因为它很容易构建。
Cool, I'll build an app, I add a paywall, and then they realize this is a lot harder than I thought.
酷，我将构建一个应用程序，添加一个付费专区，然后他们意识到这比我想象的要困难得多。
From a perspective of distribution and CAx and growth like that, is that the biggest missing piece that people don't get about building a successful consumer subscription product?
从分销、CAx 和增长的角度来看，这是人们在构建成功的消费者订阅产品时没有意识到的最大缺失部分吗？
Albert Cheng: Yeah, user retention is gold for consumer subscription companies.
Albert Cheng：是的，用户保留对于消费者订阅公司来说是黄金。
If you don't retain your users, then a lot of the onus is on getting them to pay on day one, that's super hard.
如果你不能留住你的用户，那么很多责任就在于让他们在第一天就付费，这非常困难。
Then you're dealing with totally different business models where you're paying for users, you're trying to aggressively upsell them before they hit any habitual usage patterns with your product.
然后你要处理完全不同的商业模式，你要为用户付费，你要在他们对你的产品产生任何习惯使用模式之前积极向他们追加销售。
Albert Cheng: A lot of apps naturally do that because that's how they break the mold and get their first users to do it, but I don't know, I've been fortunate to join companies after that initial phase, but especially take Duolingo and Chess.com, these are organic word of mouth driven businesses and in both ways, they grew the market from a much smaller market and as opposed to it being a very competitive space where you're competing and taking market share from others and bidding for higher terms and stuff like that.
Albert Cheng：很多应用程序自然会这样做，因为这就是他们打破模式并吸引第一批用户这样做的方式，但我不知道，我很幸运在初始阶段之后加入了公司，但特别是 Duolingo 和 Chess.com，这些都是有机口碑驱动的业务，从这两个方面来说，他们从一个小得多的市场发展了市场，而不是一个竞争非常激烈的空间，你在其中竞争并从其他人那里夺取市场份额，并竞标更高的条款和类似的东西。
So I don't know, there's something to that.
所以我不知道，有一些事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: So what I'm hearing here is you need to find a way to grow through word of mouth for this to have any chance of success and also retention needs to be very high.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以我在这里听到的是，你需要找到一种通过口碑传播来增长的方法，这样才有成功的机会，而且保留率也需要非常高。
Do you have a heuristic of what retention needs to be for you to have a chance building a successful consumer subscription business?
您是否知道需要什么样的保留率才能有机会建立成功的消费者订阅业务？
Albert Cheng: I think consumer companies tend to track essentially two main types of user retention.
Albert Cheng：我认为消费品公司倾向于追踪两种主要类型的用户保留。
There's more of the new user, one, D1, D7, et cetera.
还有更多的新用户，一个，D1，D7，等等。
I think when you have your D one retention somewhere around the 30 or 40% mark, that's quite solid I think for a consumer app.
我认为，当您的 D one 留存率在 30% 或 40% 左右时，对于消费者应用程序来说，这是相当可靠的。
If it's much lower than that, then sometimes I might question the intent of the user or the ability for that, you to I guess acquire just mathematically acquire enough users such that you can grow a big enough daily active user base.
如果远低于这个值，那么有时我可能会质疑用户的意图或能力，我猜你只需从数学上获得足够的用户，这样你就可以发展足够大的每日活跃用户群。
Lenny Rachitsky: So it feels achievable in theory.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以理论上感觉是可以实现的。
Albert Cheng: It's achievable.
郑新豪：这是可以实现的。
It's achievable in theory, but there are so many options out there in the market and people are feeling a lot of app and product bloat.
理论上这是可以实现的，但市场上有太多选择，人们感觉应用程序和产品臃肿。
Lenny Rachitsky: And so just to be clear, you're saying 20 to 30% of people come back the next day?
Lenny Rachitsky：澄清一下，您是说 20% 到 30% 的人第二天就会回来？
Albert Cheng: 40%.
郑俊良：40%。
I think you're an okay place.
我觉得你这个地方还不错
I think even more importantly, and you mentioned Jorge to kick this off, but he wrote that very, very popular article about the growth model and how current user retention rate was the biggest thing for them.
我认为更重要的是，你提到豪尔赫来开始这一点，但他写了一篇非常非常受欢迎的文章，内容是关于增长模型以及当前的用户保留率对他们来说是最重要的。
And I think especially if you have a product that has daily frequency, that's actually the retention that matters the most is that of your existing user base that has developed a habitual pattern, how sticky is your product?
我认为特别是如果你有一个每天都有频率的产品，那么实际上最重要的是你现有的用户群已经形成了习惯模式的保留，你的产品的粘性有多大？
And it's that retention rate that really compounds and builds that daily habit.
正是这种保留率真正复合并建立了日常习惯。
Albert Cheng: So over time, especially when companies mature a little bit, you actually focus most of your energy on the existing user retention mechanics.
Albert Cheng：所以随着时间的推移，尤其是当公司成熟一点后，你实际上将大部分精力集中在现有的用户保留机制上。
You find that that's a much, much bigger lever.
你会发现这是一个非常非常大的杠杆。
One exception is that Grammarly was a different type of product and that you install it and you don't proactively open it every day.
一个例外是 Grammarly 是一种不同类型的产品，您安装它并且不会每天主动打开它。
So that was interesting to me because I assumed that you should always just focus on existing user retention, but for a product like Grammarly, it's actually the activation installation aha moment that's really, really critical and will carry the user for a very, very long time.
这对我来说很有趣，因为我认为你应该始终只关注现有的用户保留，但对于像 Grammarly 这样的产品，实际上是激活安装顿悟时刻非常非常关键，并且将在非常非常长的时间内吸引用户。
Lenny Rachitsky: That makes sense.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这是有道理的。
Yeah, the stats would show someone's a daily active user because they're typing things and that's not an accurate step for Grammarly.
是的，统计数据会显示某人是每日活跃用户，因为他们正在输入内容，而这对于 Grammarly 来说并不是一个准确的步骤。
The other interesting trend I've noticed across successful consumer subscription products is they always start very scrappy and very cost-efficient and spend efficient because I think it's because it takes them a long time to find something that's working and they're surviving on that margin of retention to growth cost essentially.
我在成功的消费者订阅产品中注意到的另一个有趣的趋势是，它们总是开始时非常斗志旺盛，并且非常具有成本效益和支出效率，因为我认为这是因为它们需要很长时间才能找到有效的东西，并且它们本质上是靠保留增长成本的边际生存的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, and the retention piece, that's such a good point.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，还有保留部分，这是一个很好的观点。
My newsletter is very much along these lines.
我的时事通讯大致就是这样的。
It's just like how many people are joining every day, how many people are leaving?
就像每天有多少人加入，有多少人离开？
And it's a difficult treadmill to be on because people, they want to save money, they want to spend on Netflix and things like that.
这是一个很难的跑步机，因为人们想要省钱，他们想要花在Netflix和类似的东西上。
So as amazing as you are, people are always going to leave.
尽管你很出色，但人们总是会离开。
So the trick is how do you find more people coming than going?
所以关键是如何发现来的人比走的人多？
Albert Cheng: Yeah, and I think just to take Chess.com example, I think probably 80% of our daily or weekly active users, I'll check the numbers, but something like that would be a current user or an existing user and then a new and a reactivated or resurrected user.
Albert Cheng：是的，我想以 Chess.com 为例，我认为可能有 80% 的每日或每周活跃用户，我会检查这些数字，但类似的情况可能是当前用户或现有用户，然后是新用户和重新激活或复活的用户。
Those are actually about similar size for a company of our sale.
对于我们所销售的公司来说，这些规模实际上差不多。
So even though there's a lot of attention on that new user experience, it's actually pretty interesting that the components of your active user base are actually not heavily weighed in the new user set after you mature to a certain degree.
因此，尽管新的用户体验受到了很多关注，但实际上非常有趣的是，当你成熟到一定程度后，你的活跃用户群的组成部分实际上在新用户集中并没有受到很大的影响。
Lenny Rachitsky: Can you explain that a little bit more?
Lenny Rachitsky：您能再解释一下吗？
Albert Cheng: Yes.
郑良豪：是的。
So after some period of time, you stack up a lot of inactive users in your product and you also stack up sporadic users, people that may not have a daily habit, but they will use it once or twice a week or once or twice a month type of thing.
因此，经过一段时间后，你的产品中积累了很多不活跃的用户，并且还积累了零星的用户，这些用户可能没有日常习惯，但他们会每周使用一两次或每月一两次之类的东西。
And so eventually that math adds up where you have, let's say hundreds of millions of dormant users that are coming back and it's actually worth spending some time making sure that that resurrected, for lack of a better word, experience inside the product is really excellent and that you find novel ways to try to bring them back.
因此，最终这个数学加起来就是你所拥有的，比方说，有数亿休眠用户正在回来，实际上值得花一些时间来确保复活的产品内部体验确实非常出色，并且你找到了新颖的方法来尝试将他们带回来。
Albert Cheng: Duolingo as an example, they did a good job of using social notifications.
郑良豪：以 Duolingo 为例，他们在社交通知方面做得很好。
And so if people would use contact sync or something, you might get a push notification that one of your best friends just started using Duolingo and that might encourage you to come back and resurrect into the product.
因此，如果人们使用联系人同步或其他功能，您可能会收到一条推送通知，表明您最好的朋友之一刚刚开始使用 Duolingo，这可能会鼓励您回来并重新使用该产品。
And whether you resurrected in the product, it might be the case that your proficiency of the language you were learning, you were learning French three years ago, but now you for forgot most of it.
而无论你是否在产品中复活，可能会出现这样的情况：你对所学语言的熟练程度，三年前你学过法语，但现在你忘记了大部分。
And so when you open the app again, it encourages you to essentially replace yourself, do another placement test and put you in the right spot.
因此，当您再次打开应用程序时，它会鼓励您从根本上更换自己，进行另一次分班测试并将您置于正确的位置。
And so some of these types of mechanics for a more mature company can lead to pretty good ROI guess is what I'm trying to say.
因此，对于一个更成熟的公司来说，其中一些类型的机制可以带来相当好的投资回报率，这就是我想说的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。
Essentially, so many people have already tried in the past that to grow, you need to resurrect people that have been there.
从本质上讲，很多人过去已经尝试过，为了成长，你需要复活曾经在那里的人。
And so thinking through, it's almost like a user experience for resurrected users.
仔细想想，这几乎就像是复活用户的用户体验。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
Let's zoom out a little bit.
让我们缩小一点。
You've worked at three of the most successful consumer subscription products in the world.
您曾参与过世界上最成功的三种消费者订阅产品的工作。
What is the difference between how these three operate?
这三者的运作方式有何不同？
I think there's many ways to be successful.
我认为成功的方法有很多。
It feels like these companies are very different.
感觉这些公司差别很大。
What's the gist of each of these, how they operate?
它们的要点是什么？它们如何运作？
Albert Cheng: Well, first of all, there's obviously a lot of similarities, but I'll just focus my answer on the differences.
郑良豪：嗯，首先，显然有很多相似之处，但我将集中回答差异。
So I think Duolingo, what struck me most working there is they're very particular, they have an approach of product development that is infused across everyone in the company.
所以我认为 Duolingo 在那里工作给我印象最深的是他们非常特别，他们有一种产品开发方法，渗透到公司的每个人身上。
And they actually wrote a playbook about this.
他们实际上为此写了一本剧本。
It's called the Green Machine if you look it up.
如果你查一下的话，它被称为“绿色机器”。
That was one of my most successful tweets ever really.
那是我有史以来最成功的推文之一。
Lenny Rachitsky: I just tweeted something about Duolingo just released their playbook and I screenshotted the owl's butt and screened like a page and it was like 5,000 likes.
Lenny Rachitsky：我刚刚在推特上发布了一些关于 Duolingo 刚刚发布的剧本的内容，我截取了猫头鹰的屁股并像页面一样进行了筛选，大约有 5,000 个赞。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
So yeah, keep going.
所以是的，继续吧。
Sorry.
对不起。
Albert Cheng: But yeah, the ethos of the company.
郑良豪：但是，是的，公司的精神。
They hire a lot of intelligent, energetic people out of college basically, and they give them a lot of amazing experimentation, tooling, and they care a lot about the clock speed of the company.
他们基本上雇佣了很多聪明、精力充沛的大学毕业生，并为他们提供了许多令人惊叹的实验和工具，而且他们非常关心公司的时钟速度。
So it's a lot of creativity, a lot of ideation.
所以这是很多创造力、很多想法。
Albert Cheng: The product experience of dual legal actually changes multiple times per day for each user, which is pretty shocking.
郑良豪：双正版的产品体验实际上每个用户每天都会发生多次变化，这是相当令人震惊的。
And so I'd never worked in a place like that before, but it really struck me about how consistently the company operated and they had specs and processes for doing each of those steps in their product development cycle and they were really, really tight about it.
因此，我以前从未在这样的地方工作过，但令我印象深刻的是，该公司运营的一致性，他们在产品开发周期中的每个步骤都有规范和流程，而且他们对此非常非常严格。
Albert Cheng: Yeah, that's still lingo.
郑新豪：是的，这仍然是行话。
Grammarly.
语法上。
This is an interesting company because they started as a paid product oriented at students.
这是一家有趣的公司，因为他们最初是面向学生的付费产品。
Then they expanded into more of a freemium model tailored to everyone gradually focusing more on the professional base.
然后，他们扩展到更多为每个人量身定制的免费增值模式，逐渐更加关注专业基础。
And then as they accumulate a lot more professionals, they realize, "Hey, there's patterns." We're seeing that a bunch of marketing teams or a bunch of sales teams or a bunch of customer support teams or whatever, particular functions within particular companies were really adopting Grammarly at scale.
然后，当他们积累了更多的专业人士时，他们意识到，“嘿，有模式。”我们看到一群营销团队或一群销售团队或一群客户支持团队或其他特定公司内的特定职能部门正在大规模采用 Grammarly。
Albert Cheng: And so they were able to then layer on much more of a managed enterprisey motion.
Albert Cheng：因此他们能够进一步开展有管理的企业运动。
And while I was there, I was focused on the consumer self-serve motion, but they weren't siloed.
当我在那里时，我专注于消费者自助服务运动，但它们并不是孤立的。
They were intermixed with each other.
他们彼此混合在一起。
And so a big part of my job was not just to grow the self-serve revenue and self-serve active users, but it was also how do you uncover the right teams, the right functions, the right companies for demand gen and sales to go reach out to?
因此，我工作的一个重要部分不仅仅是增加自助服务收入和自助服务活跃用户，还包括如何找到合适的团队、合适的职能部门、合适的公司来进行需求生成和销售？
Albert Cheng: So that was a very interesting, it's a product-led sales work, and it's really fascinating thing for me to learn.
郑良豪：所以这是一个非常有趣的、以产品为主导的销售工作，对我来说学习这真的是一件很有趣的事情。
And then on top of that, with all the transformation going on with generative AI, and even recently with them acquiring CODA and Superhuman and becoming more of a productivity suite, the company is just evolving pretty rapidly.
最重要的是，随着生成式人工智能的所有转型，甚至最近他们收购了 CODA 和 Super human，并变得更像是一个生产力套件，该公司正在快速发展。
It's a really exciting thing for me to be a part of and to see from the sidelines, but that just made it at its core of a different growth job than Duolingo for sure.
对我来说，能够参与其中并在场外观察是一件非常令人兴奋的事情，但这无疑使它成为了与 Duolingo 不同的增长工作的核心。
Lenny Rachitsky: Essentially a B2B business versus a very consumer business?
Lenny Rachitsky：本质上是 B2B 业务还是消费类业务？
Albert Cheng: Yeah, and a lot more meaningful strategic decisions as well.
郑良豪：是的，还有很多更有意义的战略决策。
Albert Cheng: And then the core product team also, I'm used to in growth, laying out the entire user journey that a user go through acquisition, activation, engagement, so on and so forth.
Albert Cheng：还有核心产品团队，我习惯在成长过程中规划用户获取、激活、参与等整个用户旅程。
And typically, growth teams, if they're well-resourced, they can do enough to move each one of these various levers.
通常，增长团队如果资源充足，他们可以采取足够的措施来推动这些不同杠杆中的每一个。
And it's just a matter of the sequencing of them and what you want to prioritize first.
这只是它们的顺序以及您首先要优先考虑的问题。
But Grammarly was unique in that the core product experience itself was what drove repeated activity.
但 Grammarly 的独特之处在于，核心产品体验本身就是推动重复活动的因素。
Albert Cheng: It's that I previously mentioned that current user retention thing, what most drives that is the frequency and the quality of the suggestions that you get every day.
Albert Cheng：我之前提到过当前的用户保留问题，最重要的是你每天收到的建议的频率和质量。
And so it was an interesting learning in that I staffed up a growth team, tried to work on this metric, and then I realized actually I'm just getting in the way.
所以这是一次有趣的学习，因为我组建了一个增长团队，尝试研究这个指标，然后我意识到我实际上只是在妨碍。
This is really a thing that the core product team most influences.
这确实是核心产品团队影响最大的事情。
Let me have a conversation with the core product leader and then shift that over to them.
让我与核心产品负责人进行对话，然后将其转交给他们。
So yeah, just a super interesting experience.
所以是的，这只是一次超级有趣的经历。
Albert Cheng: The thing that's most unique about chess.com is that they're super fanatical about chess.
郑良豪：chess.com 最独特的一点是他们对国际象棋非常狂热。
Albert Cheng: Crazy.
郑良豪：疯了。
You shouldn't be surprised.
你不应该感到惊讶。
Obviously the name of the company is like this, but they've always hired people from around the world.
显然公司的名字是这样的，但他们一直雇佣来自世界各地的人。
The company's always been globally remote.
该公司一直在全球范围内进行远程办公。
They just hire people that love chess.
他们只雇用热爱国际象棋的人。
They play all day, they watch the streams.
他们整天玩耍，观看溪流。
Our Slack is always blowing up with people's chess moves and games and whatnot.
我们的 Slack 总是因为人们的棋步、游戏等等而爆炸。
I think I want to say this a little bit delicately, like Duolingo, even though the product they're providing is around language learning, I think the original ethos of how to start the company was really around motivation.
我想我想说得有点微妙，就像 Duolingo 一样，尽管他们提供的产品是围绕语言学习的，但我认为如何创办公司的最初精神实际上是围绕着动机。
Albert Cheng: The hardest thing to its habits, it's how do you build that daily habit?
郑良豪：对于习惯来说，最难的就是如何养成每天的习惯？
And I actually in many ways see language learning as their first vehicle.
事实上，我在很多方面都将语言学习视为他们的第一工具。
And what they have a superpower in is that, again, the motivation, the habits, et cetera.
他们的超能力在于动机、习惯等等。
So that's Duolingo, and Grammarly actually similarly.
这就是 Duolingo，Grammarly 实际上也类似。
People know them for the spelling and grammar corrections, but what's really unique about them is they're integrated across tons and tons and tons of applications.
人们因拼写和语法更正而了解它们，但它们的真正独特之处在于它们集成在无数的应用程序中。
Albert Cheng: There's not many products that work like that, that's really unique.
郑良豪：这样的产品并不多，这确实很独特。
And so now if you hear Shishir, their new CEO talk about the AI super highway and all that type of stuff, they can now use that technology to provide a lot more than just grammar writing.
所以现在如果你听到他们的新任首席执行官 Shishir 谈论人工智能高速公路和所有类似的东西，他们现在可以使用该技术提供比语法写作更多的功能。
And so my point is just that Chess is about chess 100%.
所以我的观点是，国际象棋就是 100% 的国际象棋。
It's in the ethos.
这是在精神上。
People are crazy passionate.
人们疯狂热情。
That just means we're always dogfooding the product.
这只是意味着我们总是对产品进行测试。
There's just an amazing energy in the company to just use the product all the time, come up with ideas, and I love that environment.
公司里有一种令人惊叹的能量，可以一直使用产品，提出想法，我喜欢这样的环境。
I think that's fun for me.
我认为这对我来说很有趣。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is so cool.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：那太酷了。
What I love about what you're saying is there's no right or wrong answer.
我喜欢你所说的是没有正确或错误的答案。
All of these companies are killing it.
所有这些公司都在扼杀它。
I think Duolingo is worth like $10 billion, something like that, and keeps growing.
我认为 Duolingo 的价值约为 100 亿美元，而且还在不断增长。
I'll look it up in a second.
我一会儿就查一下。
And Grammarly is worth a ton, and then Chess.com is doing super well.
Grammarly 非常有价值，而且 Chess.com 也做得非常好。
So I think that's a really interesting takeaway here is you can succeed in a lot of different ways.
所以我认为这是一个非常有趣的结论，你可以通过很多不同的方式取得成功。
Lenny Rachitsky: What's really cool about Duolingo, I was just thinking as you were talking, is yeah, it's just interesting that this very structured, methodical way of building is working so well because you could listen to that and be like, "Oh, I don't want to work." This is rigid way.
Lenny Rachitsky：Duolingo 真正酷的地方是，当你说话时我就在想，是的，有趣的是，这种非常结构化、有条理的构建方式运行得很好，因为你可以听到它并说，“哦，我不想工作。”这是僵化的方式。
But the fact that it is killing, it tells us this actually works really well.
但它正在杀人的事实告诉我们，这实际上非常有效。
If you find something that works, lead into it.
如果你发现一些有效的东西，就投入其中。
Albert Cheng: Yeah, that's right.
郑新豪：是的，没错。
Yeah, the structure is rigid, but the ideas are the farthest away from rigid as possible.
是的，结构是僵化的，但想法是尽可能远离僵化的。
You have seen their, I don't know, Superbowl commercials, they're memes, gamification, tactics.
我不知道你看过他们的超级碗广告，它们是模因、游戏化和战术。
It's a super fun creative environment.
这是一个超级有趣的创意环境。
So rigid is the farthest possible word to use, but what I just mean is they're consistent.
“如此严格”是最可能使用的词，但我的意思是它们是一致的。
They have for everything, and their product reviews are 10 or 15 minutes.
他们什么都有，他们的产品评论只有 10 或 15 分钟。
It's just people go in and out.
只是人进出而已。
So it's just this kind of a surreal environment about how rapidly and consistently they work.
所以这就是一种超现实的环境，他们的工作速度有多快、有多一致。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
They're worth $12 billion, and they were much higher actually, not too long ago.
它们的价值为 120 亿美元，而且不久前实际上还要高得多。
They're coming down a little bit.
他们正在下降一点。
So speaking of Duolingo, when people think Duolingo, they think of the brand and the owl and the success they had on TikTok and things like that.
因此，说到 Duolingo，当人们想到 Duolingo 时，他们会想到这个品牌、猫头鹰以及他们在 TikTok 等方面取得的成功。
I'm curious to get your take on as a very growth-oriented person watching that work and your take on growth, experimentation data versus marketing, viral TikTok videos, mascots, things like that.
我很想知道你作为一个非常注重成长的人在观看这项工作时的看法，以及你对成长、实验数据与营销、病毒式 TikTok 视频、吉祥物等事物的看法。
Albert Cheng: Yeah, I used to think it was versus, but now I realize that they combine really well.
郑良豪：是的，我以前以为是对立，但现在我发现他们结合得很好。
It could be rocket fuel for your growth.
它可能成为您成长的火箭燃料。
Yeah, being a product person.
是的，作为一个产品人。
I joined a lot of these companies literally on the home screen on my phone, and I like using them.
我在手机主屏幕上加入了很多这样的公司，我喜欢使用它们。
And I consider myself someone that's not easily swayed by ads or TV commercials telling me what to buy.
我认为自己是一个不会轻易被告诉我该买什么的广告或电视广告所左右的人。
Albert Cheng: So I always had an element of skepticism on the marketing side for much of my career.
Albert Cheng：所以在我职业生涯的大部分时间里，我一直对营销方面抱有怀疑态度。
But then, yeah, you join a place like Duolingo and you see how Duo the owl has developed a personality through the push notifications and the product experience, and then seeing the marketing team leverage that personality in their TikTok and in their YouTube and all throughout social media and just feed into those memes.
但是，是的，你加入了像 Duolingo 这样的地方，你会看到猫头鹰 Duo 如何通过推送通知和产品体验发展出个性，然后看到营销团队在他们的 TikTok 和 YouTube 以及整个社交媒体中利用这种个性，并将其融入到这些模因中。
And then we would track back in the product experience, how did you hear about us?
然后我们会回顾产品体验，您是如何得知我们的？
Albert Cheng: And put all those channels in there.
Albert Cheng：把所有这些频道都放在那里。
And some days, it would be like, holy, it's bringing in 20, 30% of our new users and any given day.
有时候，天哪，它每天都会吸引 20%、30% 的新用户。
So those two things really go hand in hand, and that feeling has only been reinforced by Chess.com over the last five years.
因此，这两件事确实是齐头并进的，而且这种感觉在过去五年里通过 Chess.com 得到了加强。
The first 15-ish years of this company was really under the radar.
这家公司最初 15 年左右的时间确实不为人所知。
800 million people play chess around the world, but most of that is over the board.
全世界有 8 亿人下棋，但其中大部分都是下棋。
Albert Cheng: Until recently, there wasn't actually that much online, but five years ago, everything changed.
郑良豪：直到最近，网上实际上还没有那么多，但五年前，一切都变了。
You had the pandemic, you had Queen's Gambit, you had a lot of YouTube and Twitch streamers, you had a bunch of kids playing it in school, et cetera.
你有流行病，你有 Queen's Gambit，你有很多 YouTube 和 Twitch 流媒体，你有一群孩子在学校玩它，等等。
And so it's really the combination of those two things that make it take off.
因此，正是这两件事的结合才使其腾飞。
And it's like the growth experimentation is more the slow and steady or fast and steady, I should say, approach where you're just continually iterating, you're making the product experience better, but then every so often, there's a big wave that comes in.
我应该说，增长实验更像是缓慢而稳定或快速而稳定，你只是不断地迭代，你正在使产品体验变得更好，但时不时地，会有一个大浪潮出现。
You can quadruple your registrations overnight and you'd be a fool not to take advantage of that.
你可以在一夜之间将你的注册量增加四倍，如果你不利用这一点，你就是个傻瓜。
Lenny Rachitsky: I was actually speaking at Chess.com and playing chess.
Lenny Rachitsky：我实际上是在 Chess.com 上演讲并下棋。
I was at a coffee shop this weekend.
这个周末我在一家咖啡店。
There's a family, a dad and mom and a daughter ordering, and the dad's sitting at the table and he's just on his phone, just opened up Chess.com secretly and just plain while he is waiting.
有一个家庭，爸爸、妈妈和一个女儿在点餐，爸爸坐在桌边，他只是在打电话，在等待的时候偷偷地、简单地打开了 Chess.com。
Oh man.
噢，伙计。
Albert Cheng: I will not admit or deny that I've done that before.
郑新豪：我不会承认或否认我以前做过这样的事。
Lenny Rachitsky: But if I can think of anything more wholesome, I can't.
Lenny Rachitsky：但如果我能想到更有益健康的事情，我也想不到。
That's an amazing thing to be doing while you're just sitting.
当你只是坐着的时候就能做这件事是一件了不起的事情。
Albert Cheng: My 4-year-old can actually set up the pieces, which is pretty great.
郑良豪：我四岁的孩子居然能摆出这些作品，这真是太棒了。
So he enjoys the game quite a bit.
所以他非常享受这个游戏。
Lenny Rachitsky: Oh man, this 4-year-old already a pianist, playing chess.
Lenny Rachitsky：天哪，这个 4 岁的孩子已经是一名钢琴家了，还会下国际象棋。
Lenny Rachitsky: What a stud.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：真是个猛男。
This episode is brought to you by Miro.
本集由米罗为您带来。
Every day, new headlines are scaring us about all the ways that AI is coming for our jobs, creating a lot of anxiety and fear, but a recent survey for Miro tells a different story.
每天，新的头条新闻都让我们害怕人工智能会以各种方式取代我们的工作，造成很多焦虑和恐惧，但最近对米罗的一项调查却讲述了一个不同的故事。
76% of people believe that AI can benefit their role, but over 50% of people struggle to know when to use it.
76% 的人相信人工智能可以让他们的角色受益，但超过 50% 的人很难知道何时使用它。
Enter Miro's Innovation Workspace, an intelligent platform that brings people and AI together in a shared space to get great work done.
进入 Miro 的创新工作空间，这是一个智能平台，它将人和人工智能聚集在一个共享空间中，以完成出色的工作。
Lenny Rachitsky: Miro has been empowering teams to transform bold ideas into the next big thing for over a decade.
Lenny Rachitsky：十多年来，Miro 一直致力于帮助团队将大胆的想法转化为下一件大事。
Today, they're at the forefront of bringing products to market even faster by unleashing the combined power of AI and human potential.
如今，他们处于领先地位，通过释放人工智能和人类潜力的综合力量，更快地将产品推向市场。
Just of this podcast often share Miro templates.
仅此播客经常分享 Miro 模板。
I use it all the time to brainstorm ideas with my team.
我一直用它与我的团队集思广益。
Teams especially can work with Miro AI to turn to unstructured data, like sticky notes or screenshots into usable diagrams, product briefs, data tables, and prototypes in minutes.
团队尤其可以与 Miro AI 合作，在几分钟内将非结构化数据（例如便签或屏幕截图）转换为可用的图表、产品简介、数据表和原型。
Lenny Rachitsky: You don't have to be an AI master or to toggle yet another tool.
Lenny Rachitsky：您不必成为人工智能大师或切换另一种工具。
The work you're already doing in Miro's canvas is the prompt.
您已经在 Miro 的画布中所做的工作就是提示。
Help your teams get great work done with Miro.
使用 Miro 帮助您的团队出色地完成工作。
Check it out at miro.com/lenny, that's M-I-R-O.com/lenny.
请访问 miro.com/lenny，即 M-I-R-O.com/lenny。
Okay, you talked about AI a little bit here and there.
好的，您在这里或那里谈论了一些人工智能。
Lenny Rachitsky: I want to follow that thread.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想遵循这个思路。
As a growth person, imagine AI informs chess.com in a lot of ways, so there's kind of two buckets here.
作为一个正在成长的人，想象人工智能以多种方式告知 chess.com，所以这里有两个方面。
How is AI changing the product, say chess and other places you've worked?
人工智能如何改变产品，比如国际象棋和你工作过的其他领域？
And then how is AI impacting your work as a growth person?
那么人工智能如何影响你作为成长型人才的工作呢？
So pick one or both buckets and share there.
因此，选择一个或两个桶并在那里分享。
Albert Cheng: Yeah, I'll tackle them in sequence.
郑良豪：是的，我会按顺序解决它们。
I'll start with the chess one just because I have maybe a slightly unique take on that one.
我将从国际象棋开始，因为我对此可能有稍微独特的看法。
So chess and AI, they've been intertwined for almost a century.
国际象棋和人工智能，它们已经交织在一起近一个世纪了。
Some of the early computing pioneers, they just figured, "Yeah, chess is an interesting game.
一些早期的计算先驱，他们只是想，“是的，国际象棋是一种有趣的游戏。
We can test machine intelligence and write some algorithms or not." And then fast-forward to 1997, and you had IBM, they had their DeepBlue application who actually beat the world champion back then, which was Garry Kasparov.
我们可以测试机器智能并编写一些算法，也可以不写。”然后快进到 1997 年，IBM 推出了 DeepBlue 应用程序，该应用程序实际上击败了当时的世界冠军加里·卡斯帕罗夫 (Garry Kasparov)。
Albert Cheng: And that was a huge moment of shock and reckoning of like, "Oh man, is AI going to take over?
Albert Cheng：那是一个令人震惊和思考的巨大时刻，“天哪，人工智能会接管吗？
Humans are, we're going to have jobs and all this stuff." And this is 30 years ago, and thankfully we're all still here and more people are playing chess than ever.
人类，我们将拥有工作和所有这些东西。”这已经是 30 年前的事了，值得庆幸的是，我们都还在这里，而且下棋的人比以往任何时候都多。
And so the game of chess and chess.com specifically have learned how to augment, I guess the human playing experience with the power of chess engines, which are definitely a powerful form of AI.
因此，国际象棋游戏和 chess.com 特别学会了如何利用国际象棋引擎的力量来增强人类的游戏体验，这绝对是人工智能的一种强大形式。
It's not LLMs to be clear, but there's engines like Stockfish these days that are just dramatically better than the top grand masters in the world.
需要明确的是，这不是法学硕士，但现在有像 Stockfish 这样的引擎，它们比世界顶级大师要好得多。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is that where we're at?
Lenny Rachitsky：这就是我们现在的处境吗？
I remember when it beat humans and now it's just dramatically better.
我记得它打败人类的时候，现在它的表现要好得多。
Albert Cheng: Yeah, I think there's a rating system that compares relative skill level and an average chess player somewhere like a thousand, maybe 1,500 on the high end, a top grandmaster like Magnus Carlsen, it's like a 2,800 and then Stockfish and similar engines are like 3,600.
Albert Cheng：是的，我认为有一个评级系统可以比较相对技能水平，一个普通的国际象棋棋手大约有 1000 名，高端的可能是 1,500 名，像马格努斯·卡尔森这样的顶级大师，大约是 2,800 名，然后 Stockfish 和类似的引擎大约是 3,600 名。
Albert Cheng: And so to put that in comparison, yeah.
郑良豪： 相比之下，是的。
Lenny Rachitsky: At least it's not 10,000 or a million.
Lenny Rachitsky：至少不是一万或一百万。
I don't even know if that's possible.
我什至不知道这是否可能。
Albert Cheng: No, it's not 10,000.
郑新豪：不，不是一万。
But it's similar to if the chess engine was playing without a major piece like a rook or something, they would still be competitive against the best players.
但这类似于如果国际象棋引擎在没有像车之类的主要棋子的情况下进行比赛，他们仍然可以与最好的玩家竞争。
Lenny Rachitsky: And this is the Elo score?
Lenny Rachitsky：这是 Elo 分数？
Is that the term?
是这个词吗？
Albert Cheng: Yeah, the Elo score, Elo rating.
郑良豪：是的，Elo 分数，Elo 评级。
Lenny Rachitsky: Magnus is what you said about 2,800, and then the Stockfish is would you say 3,600?
Lenny Rachitsky：Magnus 是你所说的 2,800 左右，那么 Stockfish 是你所说的 3,600 左右吗？
Albert Cheng: Yeah, and really it's because computing power is so amazing and there's so many techniques for how to do deep evaluation on specific chess lines.
郑良豪：是的，确实是因为计算能力非常惊人，并且有很多技术可以对特定的棋线进行深度评估。
They can calculate tens of millions per second.
他们每秒可以计算数千万。
So it's not realistic for a human to compete against that.
所以人类与之竞争是不现实的。
But yet, watching some of these chess engines played has opened up a lot of creativity, new strategies, new lines, new appreciation for the game.
然而，观看这些国际象棋引擎的下棋已经开启了很多创造力、新策略、新路线以及对游戏的新欣赏。
And our chess.com approach is that we can bring this technology for every user.
我们的 chess.com 方法是我们可以为每个用户带来这项技术。
Albert Cheng: Even people that have never moved a piece before.
郑良豪：即使是以前从未动过棋子的人。
I talked earlier about that game review product, that's exactly what this does.
我之前谈到过游戏评论产品，这正是它的作用。
So behind the scenes, we're running chess engines to basically spit out evaluations for every move that you make.
因此，在幕后，我们运行国际象棋引擎，基本上对您所做的每一步棋进行评估。
And then we translate that and make that approachable to the user using their native language and plain approachable style, and even with audio and things like that as well.
然后我们翻译它，并使用用户的母语和简单易懂的风格，甚至使用音频和类似的东西，让其易于理解。
And that part of it, the personality, the speech back to the user, that part is LLMs.
其中的一部分，即个性、对用户的讲话，这部分就是法学硕士。
Albert Cheng: And so I guess my point is that, again, chess and AI have been intertwined forever, but for us, what's most important is that we keep the customer at the North Star of it.
Albert Cheng：所以我想我的观点是，国际象棋和人工智能永远交织在一起，但对我们来说，最重要的是我们让客户保持在它的北极星。
We're not just applying LLMs just because the new hot thing, you've got to apply the right technology for the right feature to provide value to the user.
我们申请法学硕士不仅仅是因为新的热门事物，你必须为正确的功能应用正确的技术，才能为用户提供价值。
And so we try not to ever lose sight of that and let hype get us too carried away.
因此，我们尽量不要忽视这一点，不要让炒作让我们过于得意忘形。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's just really surprising.
Lenny Rachitsky：这真是令人惊讶。
I think people would not have expected AI and cannot beat every human alive ever.
我认为人们不会想到人工智能，也不会打败所有活着的人。
And chess is at an all-time high.
国际象棋正处于历史最高水平。
People want to keep playing and are playing more and more than ever played, not unexpected.
人们想要继续玩，而且玩的次数比以往任何时候都多，这并不意外。
Albert Cheng: Interestingly, LLMs themselves are quite bad at playing chess.
郑良豪：有趣的是，法学硕士本身下棋就很糟糕。
They hallucinate moves, they look at patterns.
他们产生幻觉，他们观察模式。
They're very good at pattern recognition, but not so good at going super, super, super deep on a specific chest thing.
他们非常擅长模式识别，但不太擅长对特定的胸部事物进行超级、超级、超级深入的研究。
And if you've even tried to create or look at chessboard images on ChatGPT, a lot of them have the wrong number of squares.
如果您尝试在 ChatGPT 上创建或查看棋盘图像，您会发现其中许多图像的方格数量都是错误的。
They're not set up properly, and so I don't want to be too dismissive.
它们的设置不正确，所以我不想太轻视。
Albert Cheng: I'm sure it's going to get much stronger at reasoning.
郑良豪：我确信它的推理能力会变得更强。
And actually, Google recently sponsored a tournament where all the top LLMs played a tournament against each other.
事实上，谷歌最近赞助了一场锦标赛，所有顶尖的法学硕士都参加了一场锦标赛。
So that was pretty fun to watch.
所以这看起来很有趣。
They're improving, but chess is specifically a game that having a trained deep, deep computing engine is just going to be much, much, much more powerful than LLMs.
他们正在进步，但国际象棋是一种特殊的游戏，拥有经过训练的深度计算引擎将比法学硕士强大得多。
Lenny Rachitsky: And not to go down this track too far, but AlphaZero famous for beating the Top Go player.
Lenny Rachitsky：不要在这条路上走得太远，但 AlphaZero 因击败顶级围棋选手而闻名。
Was that trained specifically for Go?
这是专门为 Go 训练的吗？
Obviously not in LLM, but that was a Go specific model.
显然不是 LLM，但那是 Go 特定的模型。
Albert Cheng: Yeah.
郑良豪：是的。
My understanding is that the one, that documentary is incredible, by the way.
顺便说一句，我的理解是，那部纪录片令人难以置信。
I don't know if you've watched AlphaGo, it's amazing how they took something so technically deep and made it so emotional and human.
我不知道你是否看过 AlphaGo，令人惊奇的是他们如何将技术如此深入的东西变得如此情感化和人性化。
But I think that's the crux of how we feel, I guess, about AIs and the products that we build, actually.
但我认为这实际上是我们对人工智能和我们构建的产品的感受的关键。
But to your point, my understanding is that the way AlphaZero is primarily trained is that it just plays a bunch of games against itself.
但就你的观点而言，我的理解是 AlphaZero 的主要训练方式是它只是与自己玩一堆游戏。
And so through the neural network, it just gets smarter every time.
因此，通过神经网络，它每次都会变得更加聪明。
And because it can have that repetition times a billion or a trillion, I don't know exactly what number, but it's going to get pretty damn good.
因为它可以重复十亿或一万亿次，我不知道具体是多少，但它会变得非常好。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
Let's go back on track to where we were going.
让我们回到正轨，回到我们要去的地方。
So this was how AI is impacting chess.com.
这就是人工智能对 chess.com 的影响。
How is AI changing just the work of a growth person?
人工智能如何改变成长型人才的工作？
Albert Cheng: I like to describe growth as the job is to connect users to the value of your product.
Albert Cheng：我喜欢将增长描述为将用户与产品的价值联系起来。
And in order to do that, what I like to do is think about that user journey again, and essentially, staff teams that are oriented around each element of that user journey.
为了做到这一点，我喜欢做的就是再次考虑用户旅程，本质上，围绕用户旅程的每个元素的员工团队。
And those teams have specific metric goals, they have roadmaps, et cetera.
这些团队有特定的指标目标，他们有路线图等等。
And then they go run against them.
然后他们去对抗他们。
Albert Cheng: So that's how it's structured.
郑良豪：这就是它的结构。
AI, I think can be applied to speed up some elements of that essentially experiment cycle that you get through.
我认为人工智能可以用来加速你所经历的基本实验周期的某些要素。
So one example is in product discovery.
一个例子是产品发现。
As opposed to core product, which tends to have longer timeframes, and you might do thorough user research or market research.
与核心产品相反，核心产品往往有较长的时间范围，您可能会进行彻底的用户研究或市场研究。
It's more foundational, more for first principles, et cetera.
它更基础，更符合第一原则，等等。
Growth is a little bit less like that.
增长则有点不那么像。
Albert Cheng: It's like you're running a lot of experiments and the output of any given experiment is the input to your next idea.
Albert Cheng：这就像你正在进行很多实验，任何给定实验的输出都是你下一个想法的输入。
And so historically, I don't even mean historically, but just a few months ago, we were operating in a, that's history, I suppose, but there would be a lot of manual writing of these analysis docs.
因此，从历史上看，我什至不是指历史上的，但就在几个月前，我们正在运营，我想这就是历史，但会有很多这些分析文档的手动编写。
You'd have to read them, you'd have to understand what insight you want to grab from them and then write another spec to translate that idea.
你必须阅读它们，你必须了解你想从它们那里获得什么见解，然后编写另一个规范来翻译这个想法。
That's still happening to some degree, but I think that's a spot where even tools like ChatGPT are super helpful.
这种情况在某种程度上仍然在发生，但我认为即使像 ChatGPT 这样的工具也非常有帮助。
Albert Cheng: You can just plug in like an analysis that another person wrote and just have it summarized for you and give you advice on ideas to go try.
Albert Cheng：你可以像其他人写的分析一样插入并为你总结，并为你提供尝试想法的建议。
And so that ideation, that research cycle was much, much faster.
所以这个想法、那个研究周期要快得多。
I talked a little bit about prototyping also just becoming much, much faster than before.
我谈到了原型制作也变得比以前快得多。
We have not yet gotten to the point where product managers themselves are actually shipping the code into production, but it's dramatically shortened the amount of time it takes to conceive of especially a bolder idea that you might have.
我们还没有达到产品经理亲自将代码投入生产的程度，但它大大缩短了构思您可能拥有的更大胆想法所需的时间。
Albert Cheng: And so when I talked earlier about explore and exploit, a lot of the explore was harder to do, but now it's a little bit easier to do.
Albert Cheng：所以当我之前谈到探索和利用时，很多探索都比较难做，但现在变得更容易了。
You can take a broader concept and visualize it, and when you can visualize it, send it around the team, get people to click around it, that makes a world of difference.
你可以采用更广泛的概念并将其可视化，当你可以将其可视化时，将其发送给团队，让人们点击它，这会带来不同的世界。
So those are just a couple examples that come to mind.
这些只是我想到的几个例子。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
I want to go back to this phrase right at the beginning of this answer that you shared that I think is really helpful that you see growth as simply your job is to connect users to the value of your product.
我想回到你分享的这个答案开头的这句话，我认为这真的很有帮助，你将增长视为你的工作就是将用户与你的产品的价值联系起来。
Lenny Rachitsky: Can you speak more to that?
Lenny Rachitsky：您能多谈谈吗？
Because I think that's such a nice way clarifying what is growth's role?
因为我认为这是一个很好的方式来阐明增长的作用是什么？
Albert Cheng: Yeah, it resonates deeply with me because I feel like growth sometimes gets this reputation I guess that it's just pure metrics hacking, like we're cold people that just are trying to move a particular metric up and we're going to do whatever it can to throw walls and pay walls and add friction in all these spots.
Albert Cheng：是的，这引起了我的强烈共鸣，因为我觉得增长有时会得到这样的声誉，我想这只是纯粹的指标黑客行为，就像我们是冷漠的人，只是想提高某个特定的指标，我们将尽其所能地扔墙和付费墙，并在所有这些地方增加摩擦。
And even though that could theoretically work at a micro level on a specific feature or a specific metric, I think what's most healthy for a company, and I want to work at durable companies is to think about the user holistically.
尽管理论上这可以在微观层面上针对特定功能或特定指标发挥作用，但我认为对公司来说最健康的事情是从整体上考虑用户，而且我想在耐用的公司工作。
Albert Cheng: And when you take that framing of connecting users to the value of your product, that value can change for a user over time, and that also lines up really nicely to the journey.
Albert Cheng：当你采用将用户与产品价值联系起来的框架时，随着时间的推移，用户的价值可能会发生变化，这也与旅程非常吻合。
What someone that's not even a user yet needs to understand about the value proposition is super different than what a habitual user of three plus years might need.
甚至还不是用户的人需要了解的价值主张与三年多的习惯用户可能需要的非常不同。
And so the teams working on them should think from that perspective and then from there, then ladder into specific problems to solve hypotheses, et cetera.
因此，研究这些问题的团队应该从这个角度思考，然后从那里逐步进入具体问题来解决假设等。
Lenny Rachitsky: Following that thread a little bit more, people listening to this are imagining, "How do I get better at experimentation?
Lenny Rachitsky：再多关注一下这个线索，听这个的人就会想象，“我如何才能更好地进行实验？
How do I run more experiments?
如何进行更多实验？
How do we do this better?" What are two or three tips and best practices that you think people need to hear maybe are not totally aware of when they think about getting better at experimentation on our teams?
我们如何做得更好？”您认为人们在考虑在我们的团队中进行更好的实验时可能并不完全意识到他们需要听到的两三个技巧和最佳实践是什么？
Albert Cheng: I think the first thing is just start somewhere.
郑良豪：我认为首先要从某个地方开始。
I just read this Atlassian state of product report and it was like 40% of product teams basically don't run experimentation at all.
我刚刚读了这份 Atlassian 产品状态报告，40% 的产品团队基本上根本不进行实验。
And there may be some good reasons for it.
这可能有一些充分的理由。
It could be philosophical or maybe you're more B2B oriented or whatever.
它可能是哲学性的，也可能是你更注重 B2B 或其他什么。
So I get it, but I think for a lot of, especially if you work on a consumer product that has some degree of scale, some degree of frequency with your product, you can collect enough data.
所以我明白了，但我认为对于很多人来说，特别是如果你从事的消费产品具有一定规模、一定程度的使用频率，你可以收集足够的数据。
Albert Cheng: And also I have found I can pattern match all day long.
郑良豪：而且我还发现我可以整天进行模式匹配。
I've worked a lot of companies, right?
我在很多公司工作过，对吗？
But I'm wrong all the time.
但我一直都错了。
And I think consumer behavior can be very fickle and especially when you work at a company, you become a power user naturally.
我认为消费者的行为可能非常变化无常，尤其是当你在公司工作时，你自然会成为超级用户。
So sometimes you may forget what the actual user experience is for a brand new user, and so you leave a lot of opportunities on the table if you don't even try to experiment.
因此，有时您可能会忘记全新用户的实际用户体验是什么，因此如果您甚至不尝试尝试，就会留下很多机会。
Albert Cheng: So I just encourage taking that first step, just run an A/B test, find a third-party tool or something that you can integrate quickly or even just work with your engineers to spin something up.
Albert Cheng：所以我只是鼓励迈出第一步，运行 A/B 测试，找到第三方工具或可以快速集成的东西，甚至只是与工程师合作来启动一些东西。
Just get in the practice of crawl then walk then run type of thing.
只要练习爬行，然后步行，然后跑步之类的事情即可。
Lenny Rachitsky: Do you have a favorite tool, by the way?
Lenny Rachitsky：顺便问一下，你有最喜欢的工具吗？
Just to throw out?
就为了扔掉吗？
Is there a go-to tool for you?
有适合您的常用工具吗？
Albert Cheng: We used Statsig at Grammarly and I saw that they recently got acquired, so that was exciting news.
Albert Cheng：我们在 Grammarly 使用了 Statsig，我看到他们最近被收购了，所以这是令人兴奋的消息。
Duolingo and Chess.com both have an in-house experimentation approach.
Duolingo 和 Chess.com 都有内部实验方法。
Albert Cheng: Pros and cons to either.
郑良豪：各有利弊。
Obviously Duolingo is an experimentation machine, and so it's been a huge accelerant to have our own thing specifically tailored to be excellent at that.
显然，Duolingo 是一台实验机器，因此拥有我们自己的专门定制的东西以使其在这方面表现出色是一个巨大的促进剂。
But no, I typically don't encourage companies to build experimentation in-house from day one.
但不，我通常不鼓励公司从第一天起就在内部进行实验。
At a certain scale it can make sense.
在一定规模上它是有意义的。
And some of these companies, they were started 15 years ago when these tools weren't out.
其中一些公司是 15 年前成立的，当时这些工具还没有问世。
So it was just something they had to do.
所以这只是他们必须做的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: Something that you mentioned to me at Chess.com, your goal is to run a thousand experiments a year.
Lenny Rachitsky：您在 Chess.com 上向我提到过，您的目标是每年进行一千次实验。
You said you were at 250.
你说你250岁了。
Talk about just that as a North Star.
作为北极星谈论这一点。
Albert Cheng: Yeah, so part of having team members that are fanatical about Chess is that the company can get pretty far just building for themselves, building for the community, and not actually being very experimentation and data oriented.
Albert Cheng：是的，所以团队成员对国际象棋充满狂热的部分原因是，公司可以通过为自己建设、为社区建设而走得更远，而实际上并不是非常注重实验和数据导向。
The problem with that is that you can have relatively lumpy growth.
问题是你的增长可能相对不稳定。
And so part of the excitement of me joining the company was to help smooth that out and bring in that experimentation mindset.
因此，我加入公司的部分兴奋之处在于帮助解决这一问题并引入实验心态。
Albert Cheng: So prior to 2023, the company practically didn't experiment at all.
郑良豪：所以在 2023 年之前，公司实际上根本没有进行任何实验。
Last year they did about 50, this year they're on pace for about 250.
去年他们做了大约 50 个，今年他们的进度是大约 250 个。
And then next year we have that ambitious target of a thousand.
明年我们的雄心勃勃的目标是一千人。
Did I make it up?
我弥补了吗？
Yes, absolutely, I made it up, but it's still a target and a thing for the teams to think about and a thousand experiments by itself.
是的，绝对是我编的，但这仍然是团队需要思考的目标和事情，并且本身需要进行上千次实验。
If you just did that but you didn't learn, you didn't make an impact, that's kind of a waste of time.
如果你只是这么做了，但你没有学习，你没有产生影响，那就是浪费时间。
Albert Cheng: The whole point of setting a goal is that you can have conversations about what would need to be true to actually hit that goal, and so that leads to insights.
Albert Cheng：设定目标的全部意义在于，你可以就真正实现该目标需要什么进行对话，从而产生见解。
Actually we need not just product management or engineering to be running these experiments.
实际上，我们不仅需要产品管理或工程来运行这些实验。
We can experiment with lifecycle marketing, changing copy of push notifications and emails.
我们可以尝试生命周期营销，更改推送通知和电子邮件的副本。
We can experiment with app store screenshots and keywords and stuff like that.
我们可以尝试应用商店屏幕截图和关键字之类的东西。
We have all sorts of content marketing teams, et cetera.
我们有各种各样的内容营销团队等等。
We could have engineering enable no code for specific screens.
我们可以让工程人员为特定屏幕启用无代码。
Albert Cheng: Think about our home screen or our pricing screen where we might want to do a lot of just tests that are configurable without engineering support.
Albert Cheng：想想我们的主屏幕或定价屏幕，我们可能想要进行大量无需工程支持即可配置的测试。
We might want to just track our progress and look at it from time to time and make sure that we have the right observability around this.
我们可能只想跟踪我们的进展并时不时地查看它，并确保我们对此有正确的可观察性。
So anyway, that's the stuff that really matters as opposed to the hitting that goal itself.
所以无论如何，这才是真正重要的事情，而不是实现目标本身。
So don't tell the team, but I don't actually care that much if we actually hit a thousand, but I think if we get pretty close and we accomplish some of these things, we'll be in really good shape.
所以不要告诉团队，但我实际上并不太关心我们是否真的达到了一千，但我认为如果我们非常接近并完成其中一些事情，我们将处于非常好的状态。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, we'll make sure none of them watch this.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，我们会确保他们没有人看到这个。
I think chess.com is in, this is just such a cool example of a culture shifting dramatically from zero experiments to sounds like two years later, a thousand, which is three a day.
我认为 chess.com 已经加入了，这就是一个很酷的例子，它展示了一种文化从零实验戏剧性地转变为两年后的一千次实验，也就是每天三个。
There's many teams running experiments in parallel, but that's a lot.
有许多团队并行进行实验，但数量很多。
What has helped you most shift that culture?
什么对你改变这种文化最有帮助？
Is it just the CEO being like, "This is the way we're going to go." What have you learned about helping shift to culture from No, we're not doing experiments to a thousand experiments a year.
难道只是首席执行官说：“这就是我们要走的路吗？”从“不，我们不做实验”到每年进行一千个实验，您在帮助转变为文化方面学到了什么？
Albert Cheng: Yeah, definitely a lot of credit to the CEO and co-founders like Erik and Danny, they're amazing.
Albert Cheng：是的，这绝对要归功于首席执行官和联合创始人，比如 Erik 和 Danny，他们太棒了。
It's not their intuitive way of thinking about growing companies, but their mental flexibility and encouragement to evolve and add this as a tool for the company has been awesome, and they've been on the front lines preaching product-led growth and experimentation just as much as I have.
这不是他们对成长型公司的直观思考方式，但他们的思维灵活性和对不断发展并将其添加为公司工具的鼓励非常棒，而且他们和我一样一直站在第一线宣扬以产品为主导的增长和实验。
Albert Cheng: So I'm glad that you brought that up because I think that is critically important for me, joining a company to not be at odds with the co-founders and the existing approach of the company.
郑良豪：所以我很高兴你提出这个问题，因为我认为这对我来说至关重要，加入一家公司是为了不与联合创始人和公司现有的做法发生冲突。
I think that's absolutely, absolutely critical.
我认为这绝对非常重要。
I think I started this podcast with the example of the game review and the positivity and how that was shared.
我想我以游戏评论和积极性以及如何分享的方式开始这个播客。
I think those types of things are really what motivate people.
我认为这些类型的事情确实能够激励人们。
They need to see this working in practice.
他们需要看到这在实践中发挥作用。
Albert Cheng: Yeah, you need wins, you got to celebrate them.
郑良豪：是的，你需要胜利，你必须庆祝它们。
People feel good about the learning.
人们对学习感觉良好。
It's applied across the board.
它被广泛应用。
Who's not going to be energized by that, I think, right?
我想谁不会因此而充满活力，对吧？
So you can't just set goals in a vacuum and create it from top, right?
所以你不能只是在真空中设定目标并从高层创建它，对吗？
People have to see it working and when it works, the metrics move and you learn faster and you ship faster, and that's a great environment to be part of.
人们必须看到它发挥作用，当它发挥作用时，指标就会发生变化，你会学得更快，交付也会更快，这是一个值得参与的绝佳环境。
Lenny Rachitsky: What was the first experiment you guys ran?
Lenny Rachitsky：你们进行的第一个实验是什么？
Do you remember?
你是否记得？
Albert Cheng: I don't know, before my time actually.
郑良豪：我不知道，实际上在我之前。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
Okay.
好的。
Got it.
知道了。
So they're already going down this track before they brought you in?
所以他们在引进你之前就已经走上这条路了？
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, sweet.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，亲爱的。
Are there any other key lessons that you think people need to know to be successful running experiments at scale?
您认为人们为了成功进行大规模实验还需要了解其他重要的经验教训吗？
Albert Cheng: The system matters just as much as any given experiment, probably even more, right?
Albert Cheng：这个系统和任何特定的实验一样重要，甚至可能更重要，对吧？
I think starting with a growth model, so you have an understanding of how your company grows in the first place and which channels you're going to leverage is critical.
我认为从增长模型开始，这样你首先了解你的公司如何增长以及你将利用哪些渠道是至关重要的。
You need to make sure that you are instrumenting your product in and out.
您需要确保您正在对产品进行检测。
Otherwise, you're going to run experiments and have wonky results.
否则，您将进行实验并得到不稳定的结果。
Albert Cheng: I won't name which company, but I was part of a company that had an in-house experimentation tool.
Albert Cheng：我不会透露是哪家公司的名字，但我所在的公司拥有内部实验工具。
It's about three months into the company, we're running some experiments and we realized that user retention was actually configured backwards.
公司成立大约三个月后，我们正在进行一些实验，我们意识到用户保留实际上是向后配置的。
So all positive results were negative results.
所以所有阳性结果都是阴性结果。
Albert Cheng: So that was kind of embarrassing and that will never happen again.
郑良豪：所以这有点尴尬，而且以后不会再发生了。
Lenny Rachitsky: You just go through and undo all those experiments and just drive up retention.
Lenny Rachitsky：你只需完成并撤消所有这些实验，就可以提高保留率。
Albert Cheng: It's kind of weird.
郑良豪：有点奇怪。
We're seeing people use the features a lot more.
我们看到人们更多地使用这些功能。
Why is user retention going negative?
为什么用户留存率会下降？
So I have plenty of horror stories around that type of stuff, but yeah.
所以我有很多关于这类事情的恐怖故事，但是是的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Oh my God.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：天啊。
On the flip side of horror stories, you've shared a bunch of cool examples of experiment wins.
在恐怖故事的另一面，您分享了一系列实验成功的酷例子。
Is there another that comes to mind of one you're really proud of or that was really trajectory changing either at Duolingo or Grammarly or Chess?
是否有另一个让你真正引以为傲的人，或者真正改变了 Duolingo、Grammarly 或 Chess 轨迹的人？
Albert Cheng: So I already shared one of Chess.com and one of Grammarly.
Albert Cheng：所以我已经分享了 Chess.com 的一份和 Grammarly 的一份。
I could talk a bit about Duolingo as well.
我也可以谈谈 Duolingo。
Duolingo and you had Jackson on the podcast, right?
Duolingo 和你的播客上都有 Jackson，对吧？
Where you talked about the streaks.
你谈到条纹的地方。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yes, talked about the streaks.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，谈到了连胜。
Albert Cheng: So I also don't want to steal his thunder because I was going to think about that, but the amount of learning through commitment and putting streaks on a calendar and just getting people started as opposed to achieving some large milestone, that was huge.
Albert Cheng：所以我也不想抢他的风头，因为我会考虑这一点，但是通过承诺和将连胜记录在日历上以及只是让人们开始而不是实现某个重大里程碑来学习的量是巨大的。
I think we did something interesting.
我认为我们做了一些有趣的事情。
We spun up a virality team and virality is this really amorphous thing to me.
我们组建了一个病毒式传播团队，而病毒式传播对我来说确实是一种无定形的东西。
Albert Cheng: I think it's really hard to generate virality in your product, but Duolingo is a product that is shared quite a bit.
Albert Cheng：我认为你的产品很难产生病毒式传播，但 Duolingo 是一个分享量很大的产品。
And so we invested actually in some time to essentially add screenshot tracking for a brief period of time in the app just so we could find out the hotspots of where users were doing screenshots.
因此，我们实际上投入了一些时间，在应用程序中添加了短暂的屏幕截图跟踪功能，这样我们就可以找出用户进行屏幕截图的热点。
And you see this in other apps too, it's not necessarily some horrible thing, but we did this for some period of time and we were able to basically articulate and say, "Okay, streak milestones is the obvious one."
你在其他应用程序中也看到了这一点，这不一定是一件可怕的事情，但我们这样做了一段时间，我们基本上能够清楚地表达并说，“好吧，连续里程碑是显而易见的。”
Albert Cheng: Really funny challenges that you get in the Duolingo experience is also super highly shared.
Albert Cheng：你在 Duolingo 体验中遇到的真正有趣的挑战也被高度分享。
Advancing in the top three of a leaderboard is another thing.
进入排行榜前三是另一回事。
Anyway, so you can find these different moments where that's the case.
不管怎样，你可以找到这些不同的时刻。
And then we staffed those moments with illustrators and animators and created these really delightful experiences around them, and that worked amazingly well.
然后我们为这些时刻配备了插画师和动画师，并围绕他们创造了这些真正令人愉快的体验，效果非常好。
Albert Cheng: So as opposed to going against I guess human intuition and trying to get them to share stuff that they otherwise wouldn't on the margins want to share, lean into it more, actually grab the moments where users are already organically screenshotting and make those much, much, much better.
Albert Cheng：所以，我认为，与其违背人类的直觉，试图让他们分享他们本来不想分享的东西，不如更多地投入其中，真正抓住用户已经有机截图的时刻，并使它们变得更好。
And you can 5X or 10X and drive a lot of growth that way too.
您也可以实现 5 倍或 10 倍的增长，并以这种方式推动大量增长。
So that's not so much an experiment, it's more a core product thing, but it just resonated with me that that was interesting.
所以这与其说是一个实验，不如说是一个核心产品，但这让我产生了共鸣，这很有趣。
Lenny Rachitsky: Well, it connects to your explore and exploit methodology.
Lenny Rachitsky：嗯，它与你的探索和利用方法有关。
Just find or explore where things are happening and then try to exploit in a nice positive way.
只需找到或探索事情正在发生的地方，然后尝试以积极的方式加以利用。
Lenny Rachitsky: Speaking of that, you mentioned this with Duolingo is just very good at habit formation and motivation behavior.
Lenny Rachitsky：说到这一点，您提到 Duolingo 非常擅长习惯形成和激励行为。
It feels like chess is good at this too.
感觉国际象棋也很擅长这一点。
You've worked at both these companies.
您曾在这两家公司工作过。
What have you learned about how to motivate people?
关于如何激励人们，你学到了什么？
How to create habits?
如何养成习惯？
Albert Cheng: Again, Duolingo would not have started without this insight from day one.
Albert Cheng：再说一次，如果没有从第一天起就具备这种洞察力，Duolingo 就不会成立。
They aim to focus on motivation and build a lot of these tactics.
他们的目标是专注于激励并制定许多此类策略。
Jorge actually had this model of gamification patterns having essentially three pillars to it.
Jorge 实际上拥有这种游戏化模式模型，它本质上具有三个支柱。
You have the core loop, you have the metagame, and then you have the profile.
你有核心循环，你有元游戏，然后你有配置文件。
And so we actually thought about it that way too, where your core loop is your lesson that you go through.
所以我们实际上也是这样思考的，你的核心循环就是你经历的课程。
You do a lesson, you get some rewards, you extend your streak, and then the next day you get a push notification.
您完成了一堂课，获得了一些奖励，延长了连续学习时间，然后第二天您就会收到推送通知。
Albert Cheng: It's the core loop of the product and making that really tight is super important because people need a habit to stick to.
Albert Cheng：这是产品的核心循环，使其真正紧密非常重要，因为人们需要一种习惯来坚持。
Then you need a metagame, which for Duolingo is the path, but it's also the leaderboard achievements.
然后你需要一个元游戏，这对于 Duolingo 来说是路径，但也是排行榜成就。
It's long-term things that you're going to strive to such that you have long-term, I guess, motivation to continue doing the thing.
我想，你要努力去做的是长期的事情，这样你就有长期的动力继续做这件事。
And then the profile is also critical because you build up a profile over time.
然后，个人资料也很重要，因为您会随着时间的推移建立个人资料。
Albert Cheng: It's a reflection of your investment inside the product experience.
郑良豪：这反映了你对产品体验的投入。
And so when you nail those three things, you can end up with a long-term learning journey that can be quite successful.
因此，当你解决这三件事时，你就能获得一段非常成功的长期学习之旅。
And then to flip over to the Chess.com side, what we see is that over 75% of our new users, they classify themselves as like, "I'm completely new to chess." Or, "I'm a beginner." And unfortunately, if you're new to chess and you're a beginner, you're not going to have that fun of a time playing live games, and we see this in the data.
然后转到 Chess.com 方面，我们看到超过 75% 的新用户将自己归类为“我对国际象棋完全陌生”。或者，“我是初学者。”不幸的是，如果您是国际象棋新手并且是初学者，您将不会享受玩现场游戏的乐趣，我们在数据中看到了这一点。
It's like less than a third of those users actually win their first game.
这些用户中只有不到三分之一真正赢得了他们的第一场比赛。
And when you lose a game, user retention is 10% worse than when you win a game.
当你输掉一场比赛时，用户留存率会比你赢得一场比赛时低 10%。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's not so bad, but at scale, that's bad.
Lenny Rachitsky：这还不错，但从规模上看，那就很糟糕了。
Albert Cheng: Yeah, and it could be worse.
郑良豪：是的，而且情况可能会更糟。
That's true.
这是真的。
And so typically what a lot of mobile games will do is they'll just create a super simplified version of the game.
因此，通常许多手机游戏只会创建一个超级简化的游戏版本。
It's harder for us to do at chess, and so without changing the rules of that, I think that's, I don't know, it's just very eye-opening to me when you're trying to learn something, whether that be language learning or chess or whatever, usually those first steps are fraught with a lot of self-doubt and reinforcement that you're not good at the thing.
对我们来说，下国际象棋更难，所以在不改变国际象棋规则的情况下，我认为，我不知道，当你试图学习一些东西时，无论是语言学习还是国际象棋或其他什么，这对我来说非常令人大开眼界，通常那些第一步充满了很多自我怀疑和强化，表明你不擅长这件事。
And so it pays to be very intentional to craft experiences that guide the user around that.
因此，需要非常有意识地打造引导用户围绕这一点的体验。
Lenny Rachitsky: Well, I can't help but ask, is there anything that helped that along?
Lenny Rachitsky：嗯，我忍不住要问，有什么东西可以帮助实现这一点吗？
Albert Cheng: Yeah, so something we're experimenting right now is just like purely if you say that you're new to chess, we're going to craft a more delightful learn how to play experience as opposed to dropping into a live game, that's an example.
Albert Cheng：是的，所以我们现在正在尝试的东西就像纯粹如果你说你是国际象棋新手，我们将打造一个更令人愉快的学习如何下棋的体验，而不是陷入现场游戏，这就是一个例子。
Another is hiding your ratings for the first five times such that you're not seeing your rating plummet.
另一种方法是在前五次隐藏您的评分，这样您就不会看到您的评分直线下降。
So there's a lot of tips and tricks you can do.
因此，您可以采取很多提示和技巧。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm just imagining a little guide that's like, "Here's how you win."
Lenny Rachitsky：我只是想象一个小指南，就像“这就是你获胜的方式”。
Albert Cheng: Yeah, or play against a coach, play against a friend, play against a bot.
郑良豪：是的，或者和教练比赛，和朋友比赛，和机器人比赛。
There's a bunch of different avenues you could take.
您可以采取多种不同的途径。
Lenny Rachitsky: Well, what I'd love is play against someone real and here's where you should move.
Lenny Rachitsky：嗯，我喜欢的是与真实的人比赛，这就是你应该移动的地方。
Just like, "Hey, here's we're going to help you win."
就像，“嘿，我们将帮助你获胜。”
Albert Cheng: I don't want to be playing with you then.
郑良豪：那我就不想和你玩了。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
Let me ask you a couple more questions.
让我再问你几个问题。
One is just zooming out a little bit, what's the most counterintuitive lesson you've learned about building products or building teams across the many companies you've worked at?
一个只是稍微缩小一点，你在你工作过的许多公司中构建产品或构建团队时学到的最违反直觉的教训是什么？
Albert Cheng: Yeah, I've talked a lot about products.
郑良豪：是的，我谈了很多关于产品的事情。
So maybe I'll flip to the team side for a bit.
所以也许我会暂时转向团队这边。
I think the standard way to hire and build a team is you fill out a JD, it's got a whole bunch of different characteristics that you're looking for.
我认为雇用和建立团队的标准方法是填写一份 JD，它具有您正在寻找的一大堆不同的特征。
You typically will find a short list of companies that are kind of similar to yours, and then you try to hire for that, right?
您通常会找到与您的公司类似的简短公司名单，然后您尝试为此招聘，对吗？
I think that's the typical default path that a lot of companies take.
我认为这是许多公司采取的典型默认路径。
Albert Cheng: And I was really struck by my experience working at some smaller startups or take Duolingo as an example, where over and over and over, I saw some of the highest performers just being people that had very high agency, had that clock speed, had that energy.
Albert Cheng：我在一些小型初创公司工作的经历给我留下了深刻的印象，或者以 Duolingo 为例，我一遍又一遍地看到一些表现最好的人就是那些具有非常高的代理能力、有那样的时钟速度、有那样的能量的人。
Yes, they cared about the mission, but they didn't necessarily need to have deep experience on that matter.
是的，他们关心任务，但他们不一定需要在这方面有深厚的经验。
And in fact, sometimes that experience could be a crutch in certain ways, especially in this world where the grounds are shifting so fast with AI, a lot of your learned habits actually need to be intentionally discarded.
事实上，有时这种经验在某些方面可能是一种拐杖，特别是在这个人工智能正在快速变化的世界里，你学到的很多习惯实际上需要有意地丢弃。
Albert Cheng: You need to have a beginner's mind on this type of stuff.
郑良豪：你需要对这类事情有一个初学者的心态。
So I think this is more true than ever, looking for people that respond and move quickly and think just faster and move faster.
所以我认为这比以往任何时候都更加真实，寻找那些能够快速反应和行动、思考更快、行动更快的人。
I think the fastest speed of learning, those types of companies are the ones that I want to bet on.
我觉得学习速度最快的，那些类型的公司才是我想押注的。
I think those will end up surviving and thriving.
我认为这些最终将生存并繁荣。
Lenny Rachitsky: So just to double click on this idea of high agency is very trending these days of just higher high agency people.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以，双击这个高代理的想法在当今更高的高代理人士中非常流行。
To unpack that a little bit, you mentioned a few of these traits, so let's just help people see what you see.
为了稍微解开这个问题，您提到了其中一些特征，所以让我们帮助人们了解您所看到的内容。
So one is clock speed, just they think fast, they move fast, they learn fast.
一是时钟速度，他们思考快，行动快，学得快。
What else?
还有什么？
What else do you look for that helps you see that there are high agency people?
您还寻找什么来帮助您发现高级代理人员？
Albert Cheng: Yeah, a lot of it actually happens outside of the interview process interestingly.
郑良豪：是的，很多事情实际上发生在面试过程之外，很有趣。
So a lot of it is the types of questions they asked, "Have they actually tried your product and gone deep into it?" A lot of it is, it's the references, it's the communication that they have to even set up your interview, it's the energy they bring into the conversation.
所以很多都是他们问的问题类型，“他们是否真的尝试过你的产品并深入研究它？”其中很多是，这是推荐人，这是他们甚至安排你的面试所必须进行的沟通，这是他们为谈话带来的能量。
Albert Cheng: You can actually pick up a lot of soft signals on some of these traits over time.
Albert Cheng：随着时间的推移，你实际上可以在其中一些特征上发现很多软信号。
You've got to pick up on some of these patterns.
您必须了解其中一些模式。
I don't know that I'm perfect at it, but I've learned to balance those things quite a bit more than I did in the past when I would just purely read from my questions and my rubric and not care about anything else.
我不知道我在这方面是否完美，但我已经学会了比过去更多地平衡这些事情，当时我只是纯粹阅读我的问题和我的标题而不关心其他任何事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, there's like a vibes component to it.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，其中有一种共鸣的成分。
This is also support for the work trial way of interviewing versus just a talk interview where you have them actually work with you for a week or whatever.
这也是对工作试用面试方式的支持，而不是让他们实际与你一起工作一周或其他时间的谈话面试。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
One other question I wanted to ask you.
我想问你另一个问题。
You've worked at a bunch of different sizes of companies from startup to Grammarly, I don't know, you call it a big company, bigger company.
你曾在一堆不同规模的公司工作过，从初创公司到 Grammarly，我不知道，你称其为大公司，更大的公司。
Duolingo, I don't know how big is Duolingo?
Duolingo，不知道Duolingo有多大？
Albert Cheng: There are about a thousand people.
郑新豪：大概有一千人左右。
Albert Cheng: But I worked at Google too to start my career.
Albert Cheng：但我也曾在 Google 工作来开始我的职业生涯。
Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, right, okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，好的，好的。
What have you learned about just the size of company that makes you happy?
关于让你快乐的公司规模，你学到了什么？
What have you learned about just helping other people that you talk to decide what size of company is good for them?
关于帮助与你交谈的其他人决定什么规模的公司对他们有利，你学到了什么？
Albert Cheng: I definitely believe that everyone has a company stage that they shine best at.
郑良豪：我坚信每个人都有自己最擅长的公司舞台。
I've personally gone through this journey of big tech to tiny, tiny, tiny startup, then landed in the middle, which I consider my own goal lock zone.
我个人经历了从大型科技到小型初创公司的这段旅程，然后落在中间，我认为这是我自己的目标锁定区域。
I talked earlier about what actually gives me personally a lot of energy is seeing across a company's efforts, but also the company being small enough that I can get into the details, I can work with the specific teams.
我之前谈到，真正给我个人带来很大能量的是看到公司的努力，而且公司足够小，我可以深入细节，我可以与特定的团队合作。
Albert Cheng: I can read experiment results, I can look at the pixels.
郑良豪：我可以读取实验结果，我可以查看像素。
And so I find that the balance of those two things tends to fit best with medium-sized companies, but that's me, right?
所以我发现这两件事的平衡往往最适合中型公司，但这就是我，对吧？
I think at big companies like a Google, you're dealing with immense scale, which is interesting by itself.
我认为在像谷歌这样的大公司，你面对的是巨大的规模，这本身就很有趣。
You learn a lot of best practices from your peers.
您从同行那里学到了很多最佳实践。
They have all the tools and functions that you would possibly want to go learn from, but they can tend to move slower and it's harder to ship things and get them out the door, which eventually drove me nuts a little bit.
他们拥有你可能想要学习的所有工具和功能，但他们往往进展缓慢，而且更难运送东西并将它们送出大门，这最终让我有点抓狂。
Albert Cheng: On the flip end of the spectrum, these tiny startups, they move incredibly fast, but I grew all my gray hair from those tiny startups because no one knows about your company, and so you're recruiting people one by one.
Albert Cheng：另一方面，这些小型初创公司的发展速度令人难以置信，但我的白发都是从这些小型初创公司中长出来的，因为没有人了解你的公司，所以你要一一招人。
You're trying to get users one by one.
你正试图一一获取用户。
So yeah, you can learn fast and ship a lot of things, but if you're trying to make a big impact on the world, it can be actually pretty grueling to do so at really, really, really small startups.
所以，是的，你可以快速学习并交付很多东西，但如果你想对世界产生重大影响，那么在非常非常小的初创公司中做到这一点实际上可能非常艰苦。
Albert Cheng: Now, some of them do hyperscale and make it out, and obviously, I am not one to trash that because the path that I tried for quite a while.
Albert Cheng：现在，他们中的一些人做了超大规模并成功了，显然，我不会因为我尝试了很长一段时间的道路而放弃它。
But for me, I really like the zone where I can contribute at scale, but also execute at a pace that's more on the daily and weekly scale as opposed to monthly and quarterly.
但对我来说，我真的很喜欢这个区域，在这里我可以大规模做出贡献，但也可以以每日和每周的速度执行，而不是按月和季度执行。
Lenny Rachitsky: And when you say medium, what size of company is that roughly?
Lenny Rachitsky：当你说中型时，公司的规模大约是多少？
Albert Cheng: Yeah, so these companies that we've talked about in the podcast are about 500 to a thousand people.
Albert Cheng：是的，我们在播客中谈到的这些公司大约有 500 到 1000 人。
Typically, these companies who have been around let's say 10 to 20 years.
通常，这些公司已经存在 10 到 20 年了。
They're durable, ideally profitable, have a good leadership team, but there's still a lot of dimensions to go figure out.
它们很耐用，盈利能力理想，拥有优秀的领导团队，但仍有很多方面需要解决。
A lot of them are in key inflection points, so they're certainly not stagnant.
其中许多正处于关键拐点，因此它们肯定不会停滞不前。
You need to find a place that's dynamic too.
您还需要找到一个充满活力的地方。
Lenny Rachitsky: Interesting, 10 to 20 years old, I don't know if that's a, not many people would feel like that's where I want to be.
Lenny Rachitsky：有趣，10到20岁，我不知道那是不是，没有多少人会觉得那是我想要的地方。
I love that you found a number of companies like that that you enjoyed working at.
我很高兴你找到了很多你喜欢工作的公司。
The last question, and this is going to be taking us to a recurring segment on the podcast that I call Failed Corner.
最后一个问题，这将把我们带到播客上的一个反复出现的部分，我称之为“失败的角落”。
Lenny Rachitsky: People hear all these stories of all these experiments and all these companies that worked at, they're all killing it up into the right.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：人们听到了所有这些实验的故事，以及所有参与过的公司的故事，他们都把它杀向了右派。
In reality, you've touched on this, a lot of things don't work out great.
事实上，你已经触及到了这一点，很多事情都不太顺利。
So can you share a story when something went wrong, when you failed and what that taught you?
那么，您能分享一下当出现问题时、当您失败时的故事以及这些故事教会了您什么吗？
Albert Cheng: First of all, in the growth world, you're failing all the time.
郑良豪：首先，在成长的世界里，你总是会失败。
So I'm not going to pick a specific growth story because those don't actually hit my ego too much.
所以我不会选择一个具体的成长故事，因为这些故事实际上并没有太大地打击我的自尊心。
But earlier in my career I did a lot of core product work.
但在我职业生涯的早期，我做了很多核心产品工作。
I worked for this startup called Chariot.
我在这家名为 Chariot 的初创公司工作。
I don't know if you ever lived in San Francisco, but.
我不知道你是否曾经住在旧金山，但是。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yes, it was like the bus super thing.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，这就像超级巴士一样。
Albert Cheng: The blue commuter shuttles, like 15-person shuttles, they would essentially drive from various neighborhoods into downtown San Francisco.
Albert Cheng：蓝色的通勤班车，就像 15 人的班车一样，它们基本上会从各个社区开到旧金山市中心。
It's a commuting use case across between the public bus system and an Uber and Lyft.
这是公共巴士系统与 Uber 和 Lyft 之间的通勤用例。
So I was there for some time.
所以我在那里呆了一段时间。
I led product there and the core service was really loved by its users.
我在那里领导产品，其核心服务非常受到用户的喜爱。
It was reliable and fast and affordable enough, but we got pretty interested in this idea that maybe we can improve utilization, maybe we can make the service a little bit more innovative if we offer dynamic routes more similar to Uber and Lyft.
它可靠、快速且价格实惠，但我们对这个想法非常感兴趣，也许我们可以提高利用率，如果我们提供更类似于 Uber 和 Lyft 的动态路线，也许我们可以使服务更具创新性。
Albert Cheng: How could the drivers are driving these fixed routes?
郑良豪：司机怎么可能在这些固定路线上行驶呢？
But if they have spare time, they can go out of their way, go pick up somebody at their house or something and keep going.
但如果他们有空闲时间，他们可以不遗余力，去他们家接某人或其他地方，然后继续前进。
So we tried this, we called the chair direct, really interesting attempt, but I learned a lot of lessons there because ultimately it didn't work out.
所以我们尝试了这个，我们称主席为直接，非常有趣的尝试，但我在那里学到了很多教训，因为最终它没有成功。
One lesson is like this was kind of a solution searching for a problem.
一个教训是，这是一种寻找问题的解决方案。
You never just purely want to chase A, it wouldn't it be nice if we did this as opposed to this is our user and this is the problem that we're solving, this is why it's going to delight them, et cetera, that's one.
你永远不会只是纯粹想追逐A，如果我们这样做不是很好，而不是这是我们的用户，这是我们正在解决的问题，这就是为什么它会让他们高兴，等等，这就是其中之一。
Albert Cheng: Second is you got to consider, especially in these more marketplace type businesses, there's more than just one end user and we focus so much of our attention on the writer app without realizing, oh yeah, the drivers are carrying a lot of the brunt of this experience and our operations team is as well.
Albert Cheng：其次，你必须考虑到，特别是在这些更多市场类型的企业中，不仅仅是一个最终用户，我们将太多的注意力集中在作家应用程序上，而没有意识到，哦，是的，司机承受着这种体验的大部分冲击，我们的运营团队也是如此。
And so when the drivers are confused or disgruntled, that can lead to a challenging overall experience for the product.
因此，当驾驶员感到困惑或不满时，可能会给产品带来具有挑战性的整体体验。
So that's definitely another one.
所以这绝对是另一回事。
Albert Cheng: And the third one is we did a lot of actually PR, prior to the service going out just to get the word out.
Albert Cheng：第三个是，在服务推出之前，我们实际上做了很多公关工作，只是为了宣传。
And PR has its time in place, but I think doing it before you have validation that customers definitely want, the thing is quite risky and it can lead to a lot of sun cost once you get it out because you need to see it through, you want to see it succeed.
公关已经到位，但我认为在确认客户确实想要之前就这样做，这件事风险很大，一旦你把它拿出来，它可能会导致大量的阳光成本，因为你需要看到它，你希望看到它成功。
So yeah, this is a decade ago, honestly, I had a great time at that company, but I still remember that vividly because it contained three or more key lessons that carried forward as I have built many products since then.
所以，是的，老实说，这是十年前的事了，我在那家公司度过了一段美好的时光，但我仍然清楚地记得那件事，因为它包含三个或更多的关键经验教训，从那时起我已经构建了许多产品。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, it feels like you went to the complete other end run experiments of everything before you tell anyone about it.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，感觉就像在告诉任何人之前你已经完成了所有事情的另一端运行实验。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, I remember the chariot bus showing up at the Airbnb office and people getting, I'm like, "What the hell is this?"
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我记得战车巴士出现在 Airbnb 办公室，人们会说，“这到底是什么？”
Lenny Rachitsky: Very cool.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：非常酷。
I didn't know you worked there.
我不知道你在那里工作。
Albert, we've covered so much ground everything I was hoping we'd cover.
艾伯特，我们已经涵盖了我希望涵盖的所有内容。
Is there anything else that you wanted to cover, anything else you want to leave listeners with before we get to a very exciting lightning round?
在我们进入激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想讲的吗？还有什么想留给听众的吗？
Albert Cheng: No, this is great.
郑良豪：不，这太棒了。
I hope it was useful for your listeners.
我希望它对您的听众有用。
I will say over the last few days, as I was prepping for this, I was honestly a little bit anxious about do I have enough deep independent frameworks that I need to come up with?
我想说，在过去的几天里，当我为此做准备时，老实说，我有点担心我是否需要拿出足够深入的独立框架？
But just being authentic to my actual experience at these companies, a lot of my lessons learned have been off of the backs of other people that have tried similar things and have succeeded or failed.
但就我在这些公司的实际经历而言，我学到的很多经验教训都是从其他尝试过类似事情并成功或失败的人那里得到的。
Albert Cheng: And I think what's important is that you have that your mental sponge.
郑良豪：我认为重要的是你有你的精神海绵。
You can try a bunch of different things, you can absorb them and then put them in practice right away, discard the things that don't work and evolve them for yourself and for the company's needs.
你可以尝试很多不同的东西，你可以吸收它们，然后立即将它们付诸实践，丢弃那些不起作用的东西，并为自己和公司的需求而发展它们。
And so I don't know, I think that was just a realization that I had as I was thinking through this podcast, and I think that's partly why I haven't done too much public speaking.
所以我不知道，我认为这只是我在思考这个播客时所意识到的，我认为这就是我没有做太多公开演讲的部分原因。
Lenny Rachitsky: I know exactly what you mean.
Lenny Rachitsky：我完全明白你的意思。
When I left Airbnb, I was just like, and that was the first time I ever took a break in my career of 30 years of just working straight in school.
当我离开 Airbnb 时，我就想，这是我 30 年直接在学校工作的职业生涯中第一次休息。
I was just like, what have I actually learned?
我当时想，我到底学到了什么？
I've never just sat down and thought about, here's the thing I've learned.
我从来没有坐下来思考过，这就是我学到的东西。
And that led me to writing this medium post that did really well what I learned at Airbnb, and then that basically led to what I do now.
这促使我写了这篇媒体文章，它很好地发挥了我在 Airbnb 学到的知识，然后基本上就形成了我现在所做的事情。
So there's a lot of power and I love that this is the excuse to make you think through what have I learned concretely that I can share.
所以它有很大的力量，我喜欢这个借口让你思考我具体学到的东西，我可以分享。
Albert Cheng: That's right.
郑良豪：是的。
Thank you for that.
谢谢你。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, and so at the beginning of this podcast, before I started recording, I always like to ask guests, what is your goal?
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，所以在这个播客开始时，在我开始录制之前，我总是喜欢问嘉宾，你的目标是什么？
What do you want to get out of this conversation?
你想从这次谈话中得到什么？
And usually, it's like we're hiring.
通常，就像我们在招聘一样。
We want to make sure people know about our company or we want to get the users.
我们希望确保人们了解我们的公司，或者我们希望获得用户。
And your answer is just, I just want to give back things I've learned, which I love.
你的回答只是，我只是想回馈我所学到的、我喜欢的东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: And you've done that.
Lenny Rachitsky：你已经做到了。
With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
I've got five questions for you.
我有五个问题要问你。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?
Lenny Rachitsky：您最常向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？
Albert Cheng: Yeah, so the truth of it is I have a, not just the four-year-old, but I also have a one-year-old.
郑良豪：是的，所以事实是我有一个，不仅仅是四岁的孩子，而且我还有一个一岁的孩子。
So most of the books that I'm reading these days are kids' books, trying to make them laugh in all.
所以这些天我读的大部分书都是儿童读物，试图让他们开怀大笑。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wait, any favorite kids books?
Lenny Rachitsky：等等，有什么最喜欢的儿童读物吗？
Because I have three or two year olds already.
因为我已经有三两岁的孩子了。
Albert Cheng: Well, you said that you started singing.
郑新豪：嗯，你说你开始唱歌了。
There's a book called Snuggle Puppy that has a song in it that just makes my daughter crack up.
有一本叫做《Snuggle Puppy》的书，里面有一首歌让我女儿笑得很开心。
Albert Cheng: That is heartwarming for me.
郑新豪：这对我来说很温暖。
But no, a book that I recommended recently at work is Ogilvy on Advertising.
但不是，我最近在工作中推荐的一本书是《奥美广告》。
Do you know this book?
你知道这本书吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: I don't know the book.
Lenny Rachitsky：我不知道这本书。
I've seen these tenants of marketing or whatever.
我见过这些营销或其他什么的租户。
Albert Cheng: Yeah, it's interesting.
郑良豪：是的，这很有趣。
So it's 40 years old, but it's just packed with a bunch of different practical examples about copy and creative that work in, these are old school ads, but he took a very experimentation-oriented approach to just try a lot of things.
它已经有 40 年历史了，但它只是充满了一堆关于文案和创意的不同实际例子，这些都是老派的广告，但他采取了一种非常注重实验的方法来尝试很多东西。
Albert Cheng: I think in the book, it makes a good reminder that what ultimately matters is to compel your users to some action for him as buying a product, right?
郑良豪：我认为这本书很好地提醒了我们，最终重要的是迫使你的用户为他采取一些行动，就像购买产品一样，对吧？
It's not about just creating clever ads or sexy creatives, it's to do things that compel that action.
这不仅仅是制作巧妙的广告或性感的创意，而是要做那些迫使人们采取行动的事情。
I think that's very true for many of our product and life cycle teams.
我认为对于我们的许多产品和生命周期团队来说都是如此。
And so I shared that around as an interesting recommendation.
所以我把这个作为一个有趣的建议分享给大家。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there a movie or TV show?
Lenny Rachitsky：有电影或电视节目吗？
Sorry, were you going to share another book?
抱歉，您要分享另一本书吗？
Albert Cheng: Our co-founder at Chess.com, his name's Danny Rensch, and he is quite well known in the chess circles.
Albert Cheng：我们Chess.com的联合创始人，他的名字叫Danny Rensch，他在国际象棋界颇有名气。
He's releasing a memoir called Dark Squares, and it is super fascinating.
他正在出版一本名为《黑暗方块》的回忆录，这本书非常引人入胜。
He grew up in an abusive cult and was a chess prodigy.
他在一个虐待性的邪教中长大，是一位国际象棋神童。
And so it is just this unbelievable story and I'm about halfway through it, it's a reminder that sometimes the people that you work with, you don't realize how deep their pasts go, but this is something else, and I think it should be out by the time this podcast releases.
所以这就是一个令人难以置信的故事，我已经读到一半了，它提醒我们，有时与你一起工作的人，你没有意识到他们的过去有多深，但这是另一回事，我认为在这个播客发布时它应该已经结束了。
Lenny Rachitsky: Which is a reference to the chess board and also I imagine the difficult past.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是对棋盘的参考，也是我想象的艰难的过去。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。
How cool.
多酷啊。
Okay.
好的。
Are there movie or TV shows you really enjoyed that you've recently watched?
最近看过哪些电影或电视节目是您真正喜欢的？
Albert Cheng: These days it's football season, so I'm consumed by all the hot takes of my favorite teams that I love and the teams I love to hate as well, so.
郑良豪：现在是足球赛季，所以我被所有我最喜欢的球队和我又爱又恨的球队的热门镜头所吸引。
Albert Cheng: The 49ers.
郑良豪：49人队。
I have season tickets and I go all the time.
我有季票，而且我一直都去。
We had a rough season last year, so hoping to turn around.
去年我们经历了一个艰难的赛季，所以希望能够扭转局面。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, very cool.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，非常酷。
Okay.
好的。
Is there a product you've recently discovered that you really love?
您最近发现有一款您真正喜欢的产品吗？
Albert Cheng: Yeah, so last 20 years of my life roughly, I've moved around a lot, but I've always been within walking distance of a coffee shop.
郑良豪：是的，在我生命的最后 20 年里，我经常搬家，但我总是在咖啡馆的步行范围内。
It's just like a ritual that I go and get coffee and it starts my day, right?
这就像我去喝咖啡然后开始我的一天的仪式，对吗？
Two years ago, I bought a house and for the first time ever in my life I'm like not buy a coffee shop, and I was so depressed about this for a little while.
两年前，我买了一套房子，这是我一生中第一次不想买一家咖啡店，我为此感到沮丧了一段时间。
Albert Cheng: So my favorite product is the bread bowl barista, and it just starts my day off.
Albert Cheng：所以我最喜欢的产品是面包碗咖啡师，它只是我一天休息的开始。
I like making horrible latte art with it, and I think it's just a reminder.
我喜欢用它制作可怕的拿铁艺术，我认为这只是一个提醒。
I don't know.
我不知道。
The products that most impact me, I guess are the ones that I use all the time, and it's a daily habit-
对我影响最大的产品，我想是我一直在使用的产品，而且这是一种日常习惯——
Albert Cheng: Then the most caffeine.
郑良豪：然后是咖啡因最多的。
You got it.
你明白了。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Do you have a favorite life motto that you find yourself using in work or in life?
您在工作或生活中是否有最喜欢的人生格言？
Albert Cheng: As I was thinking about my piano stories, I also remember that my mom used to have a quote.
郑良豪：当我思考我的钢琴故事时，我也想起我妈妈曾经说过一句话。
She just said, "Nothing is more important than your reputation." And she used to say this, and I think the charitable understanding of this is that a lot of the small decisions that you make each day, how do you treat people?
她只是说：“没有什么比你的名誉更重要的了。”她曾经说过这样的话，我认为对此的慈善理解是，你每天做出的很多小决定，你如何对待人们？
How do you show up?
你如何出现？
What's your character, et cetera.
你的性格是什么等等。
They can compound and they open doors for you in many surprising and amazing ways.
他们可以复合，并以许多令人惊奇的方式为你打开大门。
Albert Cheng: A lot of these companies that have actually joined have come through relatively light connections.
郑良豪：实际上加入的公司很多都是人脉比较浅的。
And even just being on this podcast, I think I've seen a number of folks that I've worked with before beyond the show.
即使只是在这个播客上，我想我也见过很多我之前在节目之外合作过的人。
And so I think doing the right thing, building a good reputation, they can carry you a long way.
所以我认为做正确的事情，建立良好的声誉，它们可以让你走得更远。
And the flip side of that is reputations are fragile too, right?
另一方面，声誉也很脆弱，对吗？
So if you do the wrong thing, take a long time to repair that.
所以，如果你做错了事，需要很长时间才能修复。
So I don't know, it just stuck with me my entire life.
所以我不知道，它一直伴随着我一生。
I thought that was an interesting life motto.
我认为这是一个有趣的人生格言。
Lenny Rachitsky: Last question.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：最后一个问题。
You work at Chess.com, how's your chess?
你在 Chess.com 工作，你的国际象棋怎么样？
Albert Cheng: Terrible compared to serious, serious players, but quite compared to the casual ones, yeah.
郑良豪：与严肃认真的玩家相比，很糟糕，但与休闲玩家相比，是的。
My yellow rating is about 1,800 for a rabbit games.
对于兔子游戏，我的黄色评级约为 1,800。
Albert Cheng: And about 1,500 for blitz.
郑良豪：闪电战大约有 1,500 个。
Yeah, but I play many times every day.
是的，但是我每天都会玩很多次。
Albert Cheng: Blitz is like faster chess, three minute games.
郑良豪：闪电战就像更快的国际象棋，三分钟的比赛。
Rapid is more like a 10-minute game, which is still pretty fast.
Rapid更像是一个10分钟的游戏，速度还是相当快的。
Lenny Rachitsky: And you say you play multiple times a day?
Lenny Rachitsky：你说你一天玩很多次？
Do they make time?
他们有时间吗？
Is this like-
这是不是像——
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
At Patagonia, there's a famous book, the founder wrote called Let My People Go Surfing, and the rule at Patagonia is you can go surfing if the waves are great.
在巴塔哥尼亚，有一本著名的书，创始人写的，叫《让我的人民去冲浪》，巴塔哥尼亚的规则是，如果海浪很大，你就可以去冲浪。
Is that how it works at Chess.com?
Chess.com 就是这样运作的吗？
Albert Cheng: Chess is always fun.
郑良豪：国际象棋总是很有趣。
So we play all the time and they even have chess coaches on staff.
所以我们一直在玩，他们甚至还有国际象棋教练。
Lenny Rachitsky: Staff, just like you can book to do?
Lenny Rachitsky：工作人员，您可以预订吗？
Albert Cheng: You can book.
郑良豪：你可以预订。
So I get bi-weekly lessons and it's helping me improve.
所以我每两周上一次课，这帮助我进步。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。
Okay.
好的。
This is going to drive a lot of hiring for you guys.
这将为你们带来大量的招聘。
Saved it for the end.
保存到最后。
Albert, this was awesome.
艾伯特，这太棒了。
Thank you so much for doing this.
非常感谢您这样做。
Thanks so much for giving back and sharing all these stories.
非常感谢您回馈并分享所有这些故事。
Two final questions, work and folks find you if they want to follow up on some of this stuff, and how can listeners be useful to you?
最后两个问题，工作和人们如果想跟进其中一些事情就会找到你，以及听众如何对你有用？
Albert Cheng: Yeah, thanks for having me.
郑良豪：是的，谢谢你邀请我。
This was great.
这太棒了。
You can find me on LinkedIn or Twitter.
您可以在 LinkedIn 或 Twitter 上找到我。
Not a super active poster, but I read it all the time.
不是一个超级活跃的海报，但我一直在读它。
If there's something that I said today that resonates with you and you just want to get in touch, trade notes, feel free to reach out.
如果我今天所说的某些内容引起了您的共鸣，而您只是想取得联系、交换意见，请随时与我们联系。
Lenny Rachitsky: And can they play with you on, can they find you on Chess.com to play?
Lenny Rachitsky：他们可以和你一起玩吗？他们可以在 Chess.com 上找到你玩吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
Do you want to share your username or you don't want that?
您想分享您的用户名还是不想分享？
Albert Cheng: I just mentioned that I'm a 49ers fan, so my username is Go9ers, so.
Albert Cheng：我刚才提到我是49人队的球迷，所以我的用户名是Go9ers，所以。
Albert Cheng: I'm sure I'll get a lot of game requests now.
Albert Cheng：我确信我现在会收到很多游戏请求。
Lenny Rachitsky: Here we go.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我们开始吧。
Here we go.
开始了。
1,800.
1,800。
Okay.
好的。
Albert, thank you so much for being here.
艾伯特，非常感谢你来到这里。
Lenny Rachitsky: Bye everyone.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：大家再见。
Thank you so much for listening.
非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcast、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。