When to invest in new acquisition channels | Adam Grenier (Uber, MasterClass)

Adam Grenier: One of the biggest pieces of advice I'm giving to people that are like, "How should we adjust our marketing with the economic changes and things like that?" I was like, "Start by assuming you no longer have product market fit, because you had product market fit in a different market." It's a different market now, so you have to start over.

Adam Grenier：我给人们的最重要的建议之一是，“我们应该如何根据经济变化和类似的事情调整我们的营销？”我当时想，“首先假设你不再有产品市场契合度，因为你的产品市场契合度在不同的市场。”现在市场不同了，所以你必须重新开始。

And hopefully you do, or it's pretty close to it and you just have to adjust a couple things, and you could be right back on track.

希望你能做到，或者已经非常接近了，你只需要调整一些事情，你就可以回到正轨。

But if you just assume you need to launch a new channel to fix this problem, you're going to be wrong, because your entire customer base changed, not just the next 10% of customers that you're looking for.

但如果您只是假设需要推出新渠道来解决此问题，那么您就错了，因为您的整个客户群发生了变化，而不仅仅是您正在寻找的接下来 10% 的客户发生了变化。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客。

I'm Lenny and my goal here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products.

我是莱尼，我的目标是帮助您更好地构建和种植产品。

I interview world class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard won experiences building and scaling today's most successful companies.

我采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，从他们建立和扩展当今最成功的公司的来之不易的经验中学习。

Today, my guest is Adam Grenier.

今天，我的嘉宾是亚当·格雷尼尔。

Adam was head of Growth Marketing and Innovation at Uber where he basically built their growth marketing infrastructure and the team from the ground up.

Adam 是 Uber 增长营销和创新部门的负责人，他基本上从头开始构建了增长营销基础设施和团队。

Then he went on to VP of Product and Marketing at Lambda School, and most recently he was VP of Marketing at Masterclass.

然后，他继续担任 Lambda School 的产品和营销副总裁，最近担任 Masterclass 的营销副总裁。

These days, Adam advises companies, large and small, on growth and marketing strategy.

如今，亚当为大大小小的公司提供增长和营销策略方面的建议。

Lenny: In our conversation, we cover how to decide when to try new and emerging acquisition channels like TikTok, VR, newsletter ads, and how to go about testing them out.

Lenny：在我们的谈话中，我们讨论了如何决定何时尝试新的和新兴的获取渠道，如 TikTok、VR、时事通讯广告，以及如何着手测试它们。

We get into the growth CMO role, which is an emerging role that Adam has helped pioneer, and we get into some real talk about burnout and depression and mental health issues that often come with working in tech.

我们进入了成长型 CMO 角色，这是 Adam 帮助开创的一个新兴角色，我们真正讨论了科技行业工作中经常出现的倦怠、抑郁和心理健康问题。

This was a really powerful and insightful conversation and I learned a lot from Adam both as an operator and as a human.

这是一次非常有力且富有洞察力的对话，我从 Adam 身上学到了很多东西，无论是作为操作员还是作为人。

I can't wait for you to hear this episode.

我迫不及待地想让你听到这一集。

And so with that, I bring you Adam Grenier.

因此，我为您带来了亚当·格雷尼尔 (Adam Grenier)。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Whimsical.

莱尼：这一集是异想天开给你带来的。

When I ask product managers and designers on Twitter what software they use most, Whimsical is always one of the most mentioned products, and the users are fanatical.

当我在 Twitter 上询问产品经理和设计师他们最常使用什么软件时，Whimsical 总是被提及最多的产品之一，而且用户也很狂热。

Whimsical is built for collaborative thinking combining visual, text and data canvases into one fluid medium.

Whimsical 专为协作思维而构建，将视觉、文本和数据画布结合到一种流体介质中。

Distributed teams use Whimsical for workshops, white boarding, wire frames, user flows, and even feature specs, and that includes thousands of built-in icons and a rich library of templates.

分布式团队将 Whimsical 用于研讨会、白板、线框、用户流程，甚至功能规格，其中包括数千个内置图标和丰富的模板库。

See why product teams at leading companies call Whimsical a game changer.

了解为什么领先公司的产品团队将 Whimsical 称为游戏规则改变者。

Visit whimsical.com/lenny to have my own templates added to your account when you sign up.

注册时，请访问 Whimsical.com/lenny，将我自己的模板添加到您的帐户中。

That's whimsical.com/lenny.

那是whimsical.com/lenny。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Coda.

莱尼：这一集是由 Coda 为您带来的。

Coda's an all-in-one doc that combines the best of documents, spreadsheets, and apps in one place.

Coda 是一款一体化文档，将文档、电子表格和应用程序的最佳功能整合到一个地方。

I actually use Coda every single day.

事实上我每天都使用 Coda。

It's my home base for organizing my newsletter writing, it's where I plan my content calendar, capture my research, and write the first drafts of each and every post.

这是我组织时事通讯写作的大本营，在这里我计划我的内容日历，记录我的研究，并撰写每一篇文章的初稿。

It's also where I curate my private knowledge repository for paid newsletter subscribers, and it's also how I manage the workflow for this very podcast.

这也是我为付费时事通讯订阅者策划私人知识库的地方，也是我管理这个播客工作流程的方式。

Over the years I've seen Coda evolve from being a tool that makes teams more productive, to one that also helps bring the best practices across the tech industry to life, with an incredibly rich collection of templates and guides in the Coda Dock Gallery, including resources from many guests on this podcast, including Shreyas, Gokul, and Shishir, the CEO of Coda.

多年来，我见证了 Coda 从一种提高团队工作效率的工具，发展成为一种有助于将整个科技行业的最佳实践变为现实的工具，Coda Dock Gallery 中提供了极其丰富的模板和指南，其中包括来自该播客的许多嘉宾的资源，包括 Shreyas、Gokul 和 Coda 首席执行官 Shishir。

Lenny: Some of the best teams out there like Pinterest, Spotify, Square, and Uber use Coda to run effectively, and have published their templates for anyone to use.

Lenny：Pinterest、Spotify、Square 和 Uber 等一些最好的团队使用 Coda 来有效运行，并发布了他们的模板供任何人使用。

If you're ping ponging between lots of documents and spreadsheets, make your life better and start using Coda.

如果您要在大量文档和电子表格之间来回切换，请开始使用 Coda，让您的生活更美好。

You can take advantage of a special limited time offer just for startups.

您可以利用专为初创公司提供的特殊限时优惠。

Head over to coda.io/lenny to sign up and get a $1,000 credit on your first statement.

前往 coda.io/lenny 进行注册，并在您的第一份账单上获得 1,000 美元的积分。

That's C-O-D-A.I-O/lenny to sign up and get a $1,000 in credit on your account.

这就是 C-O-D-A.I-O/lenny 注册并在您的帐户中获得 1,000 美元的积分。

Adam Grenier: Thank you.

亚当·格雷尼尔：谢谢。

Thanks for having me.

谢谢你有我。

Lenny: It's my pleasure.

莱尼：这是我的荣幸。

I'm really excited to chat.

我真的很高兴能聊天。

So, I'm going to give a very brief overview of your very impressive career, and just let me know if I missed anything.

因此，我将简要概述您令人印象深刻的职业生涯，如果我错过了什么，请告诉我。

Lenny: Okay, so you were most recently VP of Marketing at Masterclass, which I'm actually a happy subscriber of and I've watched many a video.

莱尼：好的，您最近担任 Masterclass 的营销副总裁，我实际上是 Masterclass 的订阅者，并且观看了很多视频。

Before that, you were VP of Product and Marketing at Lambda School.

在此之前，您曾担任 Lambda School 的产品和营销副总裁。

I don't know if that's right before, but that was something you did.

我不知道以前是否正确，但那是你所做的。

Also, you were head of Growth Marketing and Innovation at Uber, which is a really cool title.

此外，您曾担任 Uber 增长营销和创新主管，这是一个非常酷的头衔。

And I think you spent four years there and you basically built their growth marketing infrastructure and the team.

我认为你在那里呆了四年，基本上建立了他们的增长营销基础设施和团队。

And currently you're doing a bunch of advising and exploring to see what you want to do next.

目前你正在做大量的建议和探索，看看你下一步想做什么。

Is that about right?

是这样吗？

Adam Grenier: Yeah, you hit most of the key points.

Adam Grenier：是的，你击中了大部分关键点。

I think pre-Uber, the first chunk of my career was on the advertising side, so worked in agency world.

我认为在加入 Uber 之前，我职业生涯的第一个部分是在广告方面，所以在代理机构工作。

So, I kind of think of this as phase three of my life.

所以，我认为这是我人生的第三阶段。

Ads world was phase one, startup and growth world phase two, and now really just spending time helping entrepreneurs and founders and built companies and that type of stuff.

广告世界是第一阶段，创业和成长世界是第二阶段，现在只是花时间帮助企业家和创始人，建立公司之类的东西。

Lenny: What's been your favorite phase so far?

Lenny：到目前为止你最喜欢的阶段是什么？

Adam Grenier: I mean all of them.

Adam Grenier：我的意思是他们所有人。

I just embrace what gets thrown at me and allow it to organically happen.

我只是接受向我抛来的一切，并让它自然地发生。

So, each phase has had its pros and cons and ups and downs, and so I think they've all fit pretty well into where I was in my career.

所以，每个阶段都有其优点和缺点，有起有落，所以我认为它们都非常适合我的职业生涯。

Lenny: Speaking of moving and adjusting and iterating, I know you're big into improv.

Lenny：说到移动、调整和迭代，我知道你热衷于即兴创作。

How serious are you about improv?

你对即兴创作有多认真？

Adam Grenier: Good question.

亚当·格尼尔：好问题。

Serious in the sense that I've done it for a very long time and I still do it and I try to do it regularly.

认真的意思是我已经这样做了很长一段时间，而且我仍然这样做，并且我尝试定期这样做。

Serious as in am I aiming to make money off of it and have a career out of it?

认真地说，我的目标是从中赚钱并从中获得职业生涯吗？

Unfortunately not.

不幸的是没有。

There was a point in my life that that is what I wanted to do.

我生命中的某个时刻就是我想做的事情。

I lived in Chicago, did Second City ImprovOlympic, a variety of different places, did quite a bit of performing, but also got into corporate paychecks early as well.

我住在芝加哥，参加过 Second City ImprovOlympic，在很多不同的地方，做了很多表演，但也很早就拿到了公司的薪水。

Adam Grenier: And so kind of built a lifestyle that made doing improv full time probably not the best path for me at the time.

Adam Grenier：就这样建立了一种生活方式，使得全职即兴表演可能不是我当时的最佳道路。

And so made a pretty conscious choice early on that it was more of a hobby and if something ever came of it, cool, but if not, that's okay.

因此，我很早就做出了一个非常有意识的选择，这更像是一种爱好，如果它能带来什么结果，那就很酷，但如果没有，那也没关系。

It's something I keep coming back to, because it's very grounding and fulfilling in ways that work and family life and things like that don't quite hit for me.

这是我不断回顾的事情，因为它非常基础和充实，工作和家庭生活以及类似的事情对我来说不太重要。

Lenny: Actually at Airbnb we had an improv teacher come and work with the PM team.

Lenny：实际上，在 Airbnb，我们有一位即兴老师来与 PM 团队一起工作。

It was for months.

已经好几个月了。

We did improv games once a week.

我们每周进行一次即兴游戏。

Lenny: And played all these fun things.

莱尼：并且玩了所有这些有趣的东西。

And I'm curious what you've taken away from improv that has helped you become better at your work?

我很好奇你从即兴创作中得到了什么帮助你在工作中变得更好？

Adam Grenier: So, I think generally the whole suite of skills that you develop in improv are pretty applicable, right?

Adam Grenier：所以，我认为一般来说，你在即兴表演中培养的整套技能都非常适用，对吧？

Because you are getting comfortable on your feet with change, with teamwork, building off of each other, experimenting, trying new things, a little bit of everything.

因为你会适应变化、​​团队合作、互相帮助、尝试、尝试新事物，什么都做一点。

I think a couple of the key rules or themes of improv that I really try to hammer home with people are obviously the "Yes, and..." side of improv, which everyone's probably heard, which is in a scene the worst thing you could do is deny somebody, because you're actually just stopping progress and you're not building off of anything.

我认为我真正试图向人们强调的即兴表演的几个关键规则或主题显然是即兴表演的“是的，并且……”方面，每个人可能都听说过，在一个场景中，你能做的最糟糕的事情就是拒绝某人，因为你实际上只是停止了进步，并且你没有建立任何东西。

Adam Grenier: So, the appropriate approach is to say, "Yes, that is true, and..." and add to it.

Adam Grenier：因此，适当的方法是说“是的，这是真的，并且......”并添加到它。

So, if someone's like, "Hey, you have a chicken on your head," not saying, "No, I don't." Just kind of ruins that scene.

所以，如果有人说，“嘿，你头上有只鸡”，而不是说，“不，我没有。”简直毁了那个场景。

Versus saying, "Yes, I do, and it's name is Sally.

而不是说：“是的，我愿意，它的名字叫莎莉。

What's your chicken's name?" Builds on that and gives it more opportunity.

你的鸡叫什么名字？”以此为基础并给予它更多的机会。

And so I think that in growth in business is super important to be able to say, "Yes, I do see your idea," or "Yes, we did accomplish this and this is what we want to do next and this is how it's going to build on it," I think is super important.

因此，我认为，在业务增长中，能够说“是的，我确实看到了你的想法”，或者“是的，我们确实实现了这一点，这就是我们下一步想要做的事情，这就是它将如何在此基础上发展”，我认为这非常重要。

Adam Grenier: The other one that I think is less known or talked about is the gift of details.

Adam Grenier：我认为另一项不太为人所知或谈论的就是细节的礼物。

So, in a scene, if you give somebody really specific details about something, it gives so much more meat to be able to work off of in terms of what's coming next.

因此，在一个场景中，如果你向某人提供有关某件事的非常具体的细节，那么就可以为接下来的内容提供更多的内容。

So, if someone's starting a scene and they're clearly watching television and clicking through the channels and I walk up and just say like, "Oh, you're watching TV, cool." That's a yes statement.

因此，如果有人开始一个场景，并且他们显然正在看电视并点击频道，我就会走上前说：“哦，你在看电视，太酷了。”这是一个肯定的声明。

I'm not denying what they did.

我并不否认他们所做的事情。

But if I come up and say like, "Oh cool, you're watching TV.

但如果我走过来说，“哦，酷，你在看电视。

Is that an Alf episode?

这是阿尔夫的一集吗？

I haven't seen Alf since I was a kid.

我从小就没见过阿尔夫。

It reminds me this one time I actually ate my own cat."

这让我想起有一次我真的吃了自己的猫。”

Adam Grenier: Just giving those specific details of Alf and me as a kid and I had a cat, which if people don't know Alf, he ate cats.

Adam Grenier：仅提供阿尔夫和我小时候的具体细节，我养了一只猫，如果人们不认识阿尔夫，他就会吃猫。

Lenny: I don't remember that.

莱尼：我不记得了。

I remember Alf, but I don't remember he ate cats.

我记得阿尔夫，但我不记得他吃猫。

Adam Grenier: He was always trying to get the family cat.

Adam Grenier：他总是想得到家里的猫。

So, those kinds of details add a ton of value and you take that into the business world, to use Masterclass for instance, if I say, "Yeah, Masterclass, we've got this way to build content that is both entertainment and education," that's interesting.

因此，这些细节增加了大量的价值，你将其带入商业世界，例如使用 Masterclass，如果我说，“是的，Masterclass，我们有这种方式来构建娱乐和教育内容，”这很有趣。

But if I say, "We create content that is both education and entertainment to solve people's deep curiosities in the way that maybe a biography would." That just opens up the exact problem that you're trying to solve.

但如果我说，“我们创造的内容既具有教育意义，又具有娱乐性，可以像传记那样解决人们的深层好奇心。”这只是打开了您要解决的确切问题。

What are other alternatives to that problem?

该问题还有哪些其他替代方案？

How are people consuming that?

人们如何消费它？

So, I think the gift of details in good improv and learning those skills is something that I really value and look for in every aspect of my business life as well.

因此，我认为在良好的即兴创作中提供细节的礼物以及学习这些技能是我真正重视并在我的商业生活的各个方面寻求的东西。

Lenny: It sounds like it's really helpful, one, in marketing, creativity and positioning, and things like that you just described.

莱尼：听起来这在营销、创造力和定位以及您刚才描述的事情方面确实很有帮助。

Have you found it also to be helpful in collaboration like this "Yes, and..." piece?

您是否发现它对于像“是的，并且……”这样的作品也有帮助？

I'm curious, is there an example or story where you like "Yes, and..." someone?

我很好奇，有没有一个例子或故事让你喜欢“是的，而且……”某人？

Do you actually say "Yes, and..." in a meeting?

你真的在会议上说“是的，并且……”吗？

How do you actually find that you use it?

您实际上如何发现自己在使用它？

Adam Grenier: I hear it every now and then.

Adam Grenier：我时常听到。

I don't usually literally say it.

我通常不会直接说出来。

I think one of the areas that I've found it to be valuable is when you've got cross-functional work.

我认为我发现它有价值的领域之一是当你进行跨职能工作时。

So, obviously at Uber we dealt with city teams a lot, and so a lot of the times the way that the central team would scope a problem versus a local team would scope a problem, would almost feel at odds with each other.

因此，显然在 Uber，我们与城市团队打交道很多，所以很多时候，中央团队确定问题范围与地方团队确定问题范围的方式几乎会感觉彼此不一致。

And if you approach it with that "Yes, and...", it's often still true.

如果你用“是的，而且……”来对待它，它通常仍然是正确的。

Adam Grenier: It's like, oh, both of these things can be true at once.

Adam Grenier：就像，哦，这两件事可以同时成立。

You could have a different goal than I have, or you have a system problem local to you that is important to you and it's not important to me.

你可能有与我不同的目标，或者你有一个对你来说很重要但对我来说并不重要的本地系统问题。

That's okay, both things can exist.

没关系，两者都可以存在。

So, now that we accept both and can work off of each other, we're more likely to build both a better rapport and energy among ourselves because we're not just saying, "No, no, no, no, you're wrong.

所以，既然我们接受了两者并且可以相互配合，我们就更有可能在彼此之间建立更好的融洽关系和活力，因为我们不仅仅是说，“不，不，不，不，你错了。

That's not true, that's not important to the business.

这不是真的，这对业务来说并不重要。

Why are you doing that?" That type of energy when cross-functional work, it just kills the scene, it kills that progress.

你为什么要这么做？”当跨职能工作时，这种能量只会扼杀场景，扼杀进步。

And then you don't build relationships, you don't build the right solutions, all that type of stuff.

然后你就无法建立关系，无法建立正确的解决方案，诸如此类的事情。

Lenny: It sounds really good.

莱尼：听起来确实不错。

Everyone in theory wants to be really good at this.

理论上每个人都想真正擅长这一点。

And I imagine just doing a bunch of improv is a really good way to get better at not getting defensive and being like, "Yes.

我想，做一些即兴表演是一个很好的方法，可以让我们更好地避免防御性的情绪，并表现出“是的。

And how do we make this idea better?" Is there something you can advise folks to work on this skill, or is it just do a bunch of improv classes and it'll kind of help build that skill?

我们如何使这个想法变得更好？”您是否可以建议人们学习这项技能，或者只是参加一些即兴课程，这会有助于培养这项技能？

Adam Grenier: That's one.

亚当·格雷尼尔：就是这样。

I would say that I'll say that all the time to people, "Do some improv classes." And I get a lot of people like, "No, I'm not funny," or, "I don't want to do improv." And I think it's still a really great class to take, even if you have zero interest in doing improv, or public speaking, or any of that kind of stuff.

我会说我会一直对人们说，“参加一些即兴课程。”很多人都会说，“不，我不好笑”，或者“我不想即兴表演”。我认为这仍然是一门非常棒的课程，即使你对即兴表演、公开演讲或任何此类事情的兴趣为零。

Because, again, improv 101 is taught everywhere.

因为，即兴表演 101 到处都有教授。

Every city has it somewhere, and it's rarely ever people that are trying to do improv professionally.

每个城市都有它的地方，但很少有人尝试专业地进行即兴表演。

It's all games, like you said.

正如你所说，这都是游戏。

The classes that you all did at Airbnb is what improv 101 is, right?

你们在 Airbnb 上的课程就是“improv 101”，对吗？

Adam Grenier: It's just like, "Hey, let's just have fun.

Adam Grenier：就像，“嘿，让我们玩得开心吧。

Let's just get out of our skin," and things like that.

让我们摆脱我们的皮肤吧，”诸如此类的事情。

So, I do think everybody should take improv classes.

所以，我确实认为每个人都应该参加即兴课程。

I think it's also something with a lot of goals or skills that you want to develop, I think being really public and open about you wanting to develop that.

我认为这也是你想要发展的有很多目标或技能的东西，我认为要真正公开和开放地表达你想要发展的目标或技能。

So, if you are managing a team and you want to sharpen the skills, make it a team goal, or have accountability and just say, "Hey guys, I know that I've been pushing back on things lately.

所以，如果你正在管理一个团队，并且你想提高技能，将其作为团队目标，或者有责任感，那么你可以说：“嘿伙计们，我知道我最近一直在拖延一些事情。

I want to really try to embrace and grow off of ideas better, hold me accountable, call me out and be like, 'Adam, "Yes, and..." this please."

我真的想尝试更好地拥抱和成长想法，让我负责，叫我出来，就像，‘亚当，“是的，还有……”拜托。”

Adam Grenier: Or giving people permission to push back on that when it doesn't happen, I think also just opens the door for more productive conversations with people and the ability to hold yourself accountable and keep trying it.

Adam Grenier：或者允许人们在事情没有发生时进行反击，我认为这也为与人们进行更富有成效的对话以及让自己承担责任并继续尝试的能力打开了大门。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

And such a good team bonding activity.

还有这样好的团队凝聚力活动。

There's like all these reasons to do this as a team.

作为一个团队，有很多理由来做这件事。

My wife actually, she's a designer, artist, writer, illustrator kind of person, and she's been taking a lot of these sorts of classes to help inspire her creativity.

事实上，我的妻子是一位设计师、艺术家、作家、插画家，她参加了很多此类课程来帮助激发她的创造力。

She never wants to be an improv person, she did stand up classes.

她从来不想成为一个即兴表演的人，她确实站起来上课。

Lenny: As you said, it just helps you get the juices flowing along these lines.

莱尼：正如你所说，它只是帮助你让果汁沿着这些线流动。

Okay, so we're not going to talk about improv the whole time.

好吧，我们不会一直谈论即兴创作。

Lenny: We could.

莱尼：我们可以。

Throw me word, let's go.

给我一句话，我们走吧。

No, we don't want to do that.

不，我们不想这样做。

So, there's basically three things I really wanted to chat about with you.

所以，基本上我真的想和你聊三件事。

One is how to decide when to invest in an emerging acquisition channel like TikTok, VR, Clubhouse was a big thing.

一是如何决定何时投资像 TikTok、VR、Clubhouse 这样的新兴收购渠道是一件大事。

You have some really interesting thoughts on how to decide and approach this thing.

关于如何决定和处理这件事，你有一些非常有趣的想法。

To the growth CMR role, which is kind of this, I think emerging role, something you're really good at, and I just want to get your thoughts on what's happening there.

对于成长型 CMR 角色，我认为这是一个新兴角色，是你真正擅长的，我只是想了解你对那里正在发生的事情的想法。

And then, three, some real talk on burnout and depression that often comes with working in tech and stuff that we go through.

然后，第三，一些关于倦怠和抑郁的真实谈话，这些通常伴随着我们在科技领域工作和经历的事情。

Does that sound good?

听起来不错吗？

Lenny: Okay, great.

莱尼：好的，太好了。

So, to start with in the first topic, if you think about it just every company essentially goes through this kind of S-curve of growth.

因此，从第一个主题开始，如果你仔细想想，每家公司基本上都会经历这种 S 型增长曲线。

They start slow, they find something that's working, then hopefully it works out and things start to grow, grow, grow, and then eventually it flattens out and you see this S-curve that happens.

他们慢慢地开始，找到一些有效的东西，然后希望它能成功，事情开始成长、成长、成长，然后最终趋于平缓，你会看到这条 S 曲线发生了。

And every company is always trying to find the next S-curve to add this layer on the cake that keeps overall growth up while this first growth channel slows.

每家公司都在努力寻找下一条 S 曲线，在蛋糕上添加这一层，以在第一个增长通道放缓的同时保持整体增长。

Lenny: And so people are always looking for what's the next thing?

莱尼：所以人们总是在寻找下一步是什么？

"Oh man, Clubhouse is coming out.

“天啊，俱乐部会所要出来了。

We should get on Clubhouse." "Oh, TikTok is so hot, we've got to run some TikTok ads." And there's always something new, like newsletter ads, I don't know, podcast ads, if that's new.

我们应该去俱乐部会所。” “哦，TikTok 太火了，我们必须投放一些 TikTok 广告。”总有一些新的东西，比如时事通讯广告，我不知道，播客广告，如果这是新的。

And you have a really interesting framework for how to think about this and make decisions and experiment.

你有一个非常有趣的框架来思考这个问题并做出决策和实验。

So, I'd love to hear insights there.

所以，我很想听听那里的见解。

Adam Grenier: So, the exploring emerging channels framework that I'll take, either my teams or companies that I'm advising through, has three core ingredients that I like to spend time with.

Adam Grenier：所以，我将采用的探索新兴渠道框架，无论是我的团队还是我所建议的公司，都具有我喜欢花时间研究的三个核心要素。

So, the first is really understanding if there is an overlap between what the customers need is, what your company's goals are, and what the channel actually does really well.

因此，首先要真正了解客户的需求、公司的目标以及渠道实际上做得很好的方面是否存在重叠。

So, the example I've used in the past is Spotify in the moment of things like Clubhouse and Paparazzi and stuff like that becoming really popular.

所以，我过去使用的例子是 Spotify，当时像 Clubhouse 和 Paparazzi 之类的东西变得非常流行。

Adam Grenier: Well, for Spotify, they're trying to get more people to consume music and be entertained by music and things like that.

Adam Grenier：嗯，对于 Spotify 来说，他们正在努力让更多的人消费音乐并通过音乐和类似的东西来娱乐。

And it's all audio driven.

这一切都是音频驱动的。

And so their growth goals are probably around new customers or deeper engagement with audio.

因此，他们的增长目标可能是围绕新客户或更深入地参与音频。

The customer's needs are discovery and more ways to maybe have deeper relationships with their music.

客户的需求是发现以及更多与他们的音乐建立更深关系的方式。

If you're a jazz fan, can you learn new jazz artists or more about the artists that you love?

如果您是爵士乐迷，您可以了解新的爵士乐艺术家或更多关于您喜爱的艺术家的信息吗？

Things like that.

诸如此类的事情。

And then take those two channels.

然后采用这两个通道。

If you take something like Clubhouse, it's audio first, it's almost like live podcast radio type feel to it.

如果你看像 Clubhouse 这样的东西，它首先是音频，它几乎就像现场播客广播类型的感觉。

Adam Grenier: You can get into these rooms with just people with really amazing esoteric knowledge about something.

Adam Grenier：你可以和那些对某事拥有真正令人惊叹的深奥知识的人一起进入这些房间。

And so its strengths have a really clean overlap to me with the goals of Spotify, the needs of the customer and the strengths of that.

因此，它的优势对我来说与 Spotify 的目标、客户的需求及其优势有着非常明显的重叠。

And so that to me is great.

所以这对我来说很棒。

That is probably a green light in terms of is it even worth our time?

这可能是一个绿灯，因为它值得我们花时间吗？

Versus Paparazzi is very photo driven and nothing really to do with music or anything like that.

与狗仔队相比，照片驱动力很强，与音乐或类似的东西无关。

And so it's like even though Paparazzi might have become the best biggest channel ever, is that the thing you should be putting your time into?

所以，即使狗仔队可能已经成为有史以来最好的最大频道，这是你应该投入时间的事情吗？

It would be a yellow light for me at best.

对我来说，这充其量只是黄灯。

Lenny: And how did you describe that again?

莱尼：你又是如何描述这一点的？

It's the medium matches?

是中型匹配吗？

Adam Grenier: Yeah, the strengths of the medium.

Adam Grenier：是的，媒介的优势。

So, let's take influencer right now.

那么，现在让我们以影响者为例。

Actually two of the channels that a lot of people are talking about right now are streaming TV or OTT and influencer marketing.

实际上，现在很多人正在谈论的两个渠道是流媒体电视或 OTT 和影响者营销。

And so to me, one of the strengths of influencer marketing is hyper targeted contextual marketing.

因此对我来说，影响者营销的优势之一是高度针对性的情境营销​​。

And so I can go find the five influencers that are hardcore Alf fans, and if I'm marketing Alf something, great, I can go find that specific thing.

所以我可以去找五个有影响力的人，他们是阿尔夫的铁杆粉丝，如果我要推销阿尔夫的东西，太好了，我可以去找那个特定的东西。

Whereas OTTs a lot harder to get that specific.

而 OTT 则很难具体说明。

Adam Grenier: OTT strength is broad reach and video storytelling and that type of stuff.

Adam Grenier：OTT 的优势在于广泛的影响力和视频讲故事之类的东西。

So, it's like, okay, well maybe my medium is if I'm Masterclass and I have a ton of video content and storytelling and things like that, that channel actually makes a ton of sense probably.

所以，好吧，也许我的媒介是，如果我是大师班，并且我有大量的视频内容和讲故事之类的东西，那么该频道实际上可能很有意义。

So, it's like what are the strengths of that channel is something that...

所以，这个渠道的优势是什么......

that is actually probably the piece I see people ignore the most, which is they just want to know if a channel is hot or not.

这实际上可能是我看到人们最忽视的部分，他们只是想知道某个频道是否热门。

And this gets especially hairy in this world of a lot of B2B doing more consumer-esque marketing.

在许多 B2B 进行更多消费者式营销的世界中，这一点变得尤其棘手。

There's so many B2B companies that just don't apply to emerging consumer channels.

有很多 B2B 公司并不适用于新兴的消费者渠道。

Adam Grenier: And it's just like, please just stop.

Adam Grenier：就像，请停下来。

I don't need a Notion Clubhouse channel this week.

这周我不需要 Notion Clubhouse 频道。

And maybe there's a world to do that.

也许有一个世界可以做到这一点。

But I think that's kind of number one, is making sure that there's even a reason that you should be there to put it on your radar right now.

但我认为这是第一要务，就是确保有一个理由让你现在就应该把它放在你的雷达上。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

What does the OTT stand for by the way?

顺便问一下，OTT 代表什么？

Adam Grenier: Oh my gosh, you're putting it on the spot.

Adam Grenier：哦，天哪，你把它放在了现场。

Lenny: But essentially it's a streaming platform?

Lenny：但本质上它是一个流媒体平台？

Adam Grenier: Over the top.

亚当·格雷尼尔：过分了。

Over the top.

超过顶部。

So, instead of it being cable TV, it's coming from a box.

因此，它不是有线电视，而是来自盒子。

So, it's primarily if you think of ads on Amazon or Hulu or even if you go to cnn.com and you start streaming and you get an ad first.

因此，主要是如果您想到亚马逊或 Hulu 上的广告，或者即使您访问 cnn.com 并开始流媒体，您首先会看到广告。

it's basically video ads, but a lot of them now are happening on televisions and on streaming services rather than just on websites.

它基本上是视频广告，但其中很多现在发生在电视和流媒体服务上，而不仅仅是在网站上。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

Okay, cool.

好吧，酷。

So, the first is the strength of the channel.

所以，首先是渠道的实力。

You should look at that.

你应该看看那个。

Adam Grenier: Yep.

亚当·格雷尼尔：是的。

And how that overlaps with your customer and your business needs.

以及它如何与您的客户和您的业务需求重叠。

The second is the channel DNA.

第二个是通道DNA。

And so this is looking at things like where are they in their trajectory?

所以这是在关注诸如它们处于轨迹中的什么位置之类的事情？

So, Clubhouse is actually a perfect example, because in a weird way, so Clubhouse got hot before Facebook got cold.

所以，Clubhouse 实际上是一个完美的例子，因为以一种奇怪的方式，Clubhouse 在 Facebook 变冷之前就变热了。

And I was pretty amazed how many more people were trying to crack Clubhouse than TikTok, because TikTok hadn't really released their ads solution yet, but neither had Clubhouse.

我非常惊讶的是，尝试破解 Clubhouse 的人比 TikTok 还要多，因为 TikTok 还没有真正发布他们的广告解决方案，但 Clubhouse 也没有。

But everybody was talking about Clubhouse, and TikTok is very clearly not going away anytime soon, where Clubhouse hopefully won't.

但每个人都在谈论 Clubhouse，而 TikTok 显然不会很快消失，Clubhouse 希望也不会消失。

Like this is an amazing product.

这是一个了不起的产品。

Adam Grenier: I really enjoyed it and loved it, but it was clearly very early, very quickly at that point of hotness where everyone was just kind of, "That's the reason I should be there." And part of this reason is to accept the risks of going into that channel.

Adam Grenier：我真的很喜欢它，也很喜欢它，但显然还很早，很快就到了大家都在说的“这就是我应该在那里的原因”。部分原因是接受进入该渠道的风险。

So, if I go and dedicate two quarters of work to Clubhouse, I need to accept that they are so early in this curve that there's a good chance this is a once in a lifetime opportunity and it'll be over.

所以，如果我把两个季度的工作奉献给俱乐部会所，我需要接受这样的事实：他们处于这条曲线的早期，很有可能这是一生一次的机会，而且它会结束。

It's not a repeatable action.

这不是一个可重复的动作。

It also is important because if you get something to work on a channel that's earlier in their growth curve, the likelihood that they will change is very high.

这也很重要，因为如果你在增长曲线较早的渠道上找到一些东西，他们改变的可能性就非常高。

Adam Grenier: You're going to need to commit a lot of cycles to keep it going, because it's like, "Okay, well, their product is going to evolve drastically very quickly over the next two years." And so a really great example is Facebook early...

Adam Grenier：你需要投入大量的周期才能保持下去，因为这就像，“好吧，他们的产品将在未来两年内快速发展。”早期的 Facebook 就是一个很好的例子……

I was at Zoosk.

我当时在Zoosk。

And so Zoozk and companies like Zynga got tons of their early growth because of notifications on Facebook, which was one of their early features, which allowed basically anybody that took any action on Zynga, it would post on everybody else's page that you got 10 carrots, and that was a huge growth lever.

因此，Zoozk 和 Zynga 这样的公司早期的增长得益于 Facebook 上的通知，这是他们的早期功能之一，基本上任何人只要在 Zynga 上采取任何行动，就会在其他人的页面上发布你获得了 10 根胡萝卜的信息，这是一个巨大的增长杠杆。

Adam Grenier: But then Facebook just pulled the plug on that.

Adam Grenier：但后来 Facebook 就终止了这一点。

And so it's like, well, if you put all of your energy into that and that's it, it was pretty clear that that was still an area that's like this may not last forever.

所以，好吧，如果你把所有的精力都投入其中，就这样，很明显，这仍然是一个这样的领域，可能不会永远持续下去。

The last thing on the channel DNA that I like to look at that's a little bit more, I don't know if odd or unusual is the right term, is I like to spend a lot of time thinking about how they monetize.

我喜欢看的频道 DNA 上的最后一件事是，我不知道“奇怪”还是“不寻常”这个词是否正确，是我喜欢花很多时间思考他们如何盈利。

What is the monetization strategy of the channel?

渠道的盈利策略是什么？

And the reason is because if you, as a business, can match or support their monetization strategy, it actually gives you a really interesting leg up with that channel.

原因是因为，如果您作为企业能够匹配或支持他们的盈利策略，那么实际上会给您带来非常有趣的优势。

Adam Grenier: Because the likelihood of you being able to call them up and go do custom stuff with them, or partner with them, or that your solutions will actually stick around for a while, it'd go up pretty drastically.

Adam Grenier：因为你能够打电话给他们并与他们一起做定制工作或与他们合作，或者你的解决方案实际上会持续一段时间的可能性，它会大幅上升。

And so my key example of this was with when Facebook started exploring mobile ads, Hotel Tonight, we were one of the alpha testers of mobile ads, because I'd been sitting here buying ad inventory on networks for the last five or six years and just waiting for Facebook to work, because it just wasn't really working for mobile installs.

因此，我的一个关键例子是，当 Facebook 开始探索移动广告《Hotel Tonight》时，我们是移动广告的 alpha 测试者之一，因为过去五六年我一直坐在这里购买网络上的广告库存，只是等待 Facebook 发挥作用，因为它并不真正适合移动安装。

Adam Grenier: And it's like, I know this is a huge channel because I can use it on my online marketing, my web marketing, but as a mobile acquisition it's nowhere near as efficient as a lot of these other networks.

Adam Grenier：就像，我知道这是一个巨大的渠道，因为我可以在我的在线营销、网络营销中使用它，但作为移动获取，它的效率远不及许多其他网络。

And so as soon as they were doing that, I was able to basically position and say, "Look it, you want to work with us.

因此，一旦他们这样做，我基本上就可以定位并说：“听着，你想与我们合作。

Let me into your alpha, because I have five years of experience already buying mobile ads.

让我来谈谈你的阿尔法，因为我已经有五年购买移动广告的经验了。

I know the space.

我知道这个空间。

I know it'll work.

我知道它会起作用。

And if you get us to work, we're a killer case study, because we are a non-game and a lot of money is spent on gaming, but there's these whole other major categories that you're going to need other than gaming examples within that group.

如果你让我们工作，我们就是一个杀手级案例研究，因为我们是非游戏行业，并且在游戏上花费了大量资金，但是除了该组中的游戏示例之外，您还需要其他主要类别。

So, you're going to be able to use me as a case study and a lot of different scenarios than the gaming players."

因此，你将能够使用我作为案例研究，并了解许多与游戏玩家不同的场景。”

Adam Grenier: And so I was spending a lot less than the gaming players, but because of that understanding that your goal at Facebook is to make ads work for all of travel and for all of leisure and those kinds of things, that's the value of working with me.

Adam Grenier：所以我的花费比游戏玩家要少得多，但由于了解 Facebook 的目标是让广告适用于所有旅行、所有休闲和此类事物，这就是与我合作的价值。

So, that's another piece of the channel DNA I like people to focus on.

所以，这是我希望人们关注的频道 DNA 的另一部分。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

That's such a good one, because to your point, if your goals are aligned, they're going to be like, "Yes, let's make this happen." And it always feels like it's this behemoth that doesn't want to talk to any new startups, but if you can make the case of this is going to help you and the way you laid out is so clear, it's such a good idea.

这真是太好了，因为就你而言，如果你的目标一致，他们就会说，“是的，让我们实现这一目标。”总感觉这个庞然大物不想与任何新的初创公司交谈，但如果你能证明这会对你有所帮助，而且你的布局方式如此清晰，那么这是一个好主意。

Adam Grenier: And especially with emerging channels, right?

Adam Grenier：尤其是新兴渠道，对吗？

Because their whole thing is that make this work for a long time.

因为他们的全部任务就是让这项工作长期有效。

It's part of the challenge you see with some new channels flipping to the other side of growing an ads business, will gravitate towards like, "I want to get Disney on here," but Disney is very campaign driven, or they have been traditionally, where it's like you may get one big paycheck from them, but that doesn't...

这是你所看到的挑战的一部分，一些新渠道转向发展广告业务的另一边，将倾向于“我想让迪士尼加入这里”，但迪士尼非常受竞选驱动，或者他们一直是传统的，你可能会从他们那里得到一大笔薪水，但这并不......

The way that UA driven gaming works is you get that to work, that's a gift that keeps on giving forever, right?

UA 驱动的游戏的运作方式就是让它发挥作用，这是一份永远持续给予的礼物，对吗？

Because there's not one of those companies, there's thousands of them and they all do the same thing.

因为这些公司不是一家，而是成千上万，而且都做同样的事情。

So, being able to drive that conversation is really helpful.

因此，能够推动对话确实很有帮助。

Adam Grenier: And then the third main ingredient is just your own company DNA.

Adam Grenier：第三个主要成分就是你自己的公司 DNA。

And so I think risk profile is a big one.

所以我认为风险状况是一个很大的问题。

Do you actually have comfort in being a first mover, a true first mover?

作为一个先行者，一个真正的先行者，你真的感到舒服吗？

Nobody knows anything, tracking's not going to work, it's not going to be programmatic.

没有人知道任何事情，跟踪不会起作用，也不会是程序化的。

You're probably going to show up on content that's offensive.

您可能会出现在令人反感的内容中。

You're probably going to ask for refunds that won't happen.

您可能会要求退款，但这不会发生。

It's going to be really painful to be a true first mover.

成为真正的先行者将会非常痛苦。

Do you have that appetite?

你有这个胃口吗？

Do you have the staff to actually be able to put someone on that and it not distract from everything else?

你是否有足够的员工来安排某人来做这件事，而不会分散其他事情的注意力？

Adam Grenier: And then the other piece on the company side is just your current channel mix.

Adam Grenier：公司方面的另一部分就是您当前的渠道组合。

There's very few companies that I recommend saying, "Yes, go put energy on this brand new channel that you don't know how to scale yet before you've figured out some type of volume on Google and Facebook." Every now and then there may be a perfect fit where it's like, absolutely, you should be the person doing this.

我建议很少有公司会说：“是的，在你弄清楚谷歌和 Facebook 上某种类型的交易量之前，先把精力投入到这个你还不知道如何扩展的全新渠道上。”有时可能会有一个完美的契合，就像，绝对，你应该是做这件事的人。

But if you're not at least getting something out of the basic channels that everybody else is using, it's probably not the thing you should be putting your first energy into.

但是，如果您至少没有从其他人都在使用的基本渠道中获得一些东西，那么这可能不是您应该首先投入精力的事情。

It should be like, "Great, I've got a good foundation." Like you said, now we're at that stage of trying to add things, tends to be a better stage to do more risky exploration into new channels.

它应该是这样的：“太好了，我已经打下了很好的基础。”就像你说的，现在我们正处于尝试添加东西的阶段，这往往是对新渠道进行更多冒险探索的更好阶段。

Lenny: What advice do you have or can you give to founders teams that are trying to test one of these in terms of just how to run these tests?

Lenny：对于试图测试其中一项测试的创始人团队，您对如何运行这些测试有什么建议或可以提供什么建议？

How much time should they spend, would you say?

你觉得他们应该花多少时间？

What do they look for?

他们在寻找什么？

I know that this is a hard question and super dependent on the situation, but any advice there?

我知道这是一个很难的问题，并且超级依赖于具体情况，但是有什么建议吗？

Adam Grenier: So, I think going through those three ingredients should help shape that answer, right?

Adam Grenier：所以，我认为了解这三个要素应该有助于形成答案，对吗？

Because if you're like, "Okay, well, the first one is super strong, the channel DNA is maybe really early and I've got a small to mid-size team and maybe only one channel working," then it may be like, "Great.

因为如果你想，“好吧，第一个非常强大，渠道 DNA 可能真的很早，我有一个中小型团队，可能只有一个渠道在工作，”那么它可能会说，“太棒了。

Put half of one person into this, because it's maybe interesting.

把一半的人投入其中，因为这可能很有趣。

But don't put any more than that into it." Versus if it's like, "Man, this is a killer fit the channel's a little further along and I have a 20 person team, so I'm going to put three dedicated people to this, because we are in prime position to be the leaders in this new channel and really push it."

但不要投入更多。”相反，如果它是这样的，“伙计，这是一个杀手级的渠道，而且我有一个 20 人的团队，所以我将派三个专门的人员来做这个，因为我们处于成为这个新渠道的领导者并真正推动它的最佳位置。”

Adam Grenier: So, I think it's figuring those pieces out, because it is a very it depends answer, but rarely ever is it like, "Hey, this should be your entire team's focus for the next three sprints or five sprints." I think that if you've got that half person working on it for a while and there starts to be some magic happening, sure, put a sprint or two against it as a whole team.

Adam Grenier：所以，我认为它正在解决这些问题，因为这是一个非常取决于答案的问题，但很少会出现这样的情况：“嘿，这应该是整个团队接下来三个冲刺或五个冲刺的重点。”我认为，如果你让那半个人工作一段时间，然后开始发生一些神奇的事情，当然，作为一个整个团队进行一两次冲刺。

But generally speaking, I think keeping it minimum at first is my typical recommendation.

但总的来说，我认为首先将其保持在最低限度是我的典型建议。

Lenny: I had another guest, Yuri, who I think from former Grammarly, and he made a really good point that it's often better not to try something than to do it badly and then take away the wrong lessons.

莱尼：我有另一位客人，尤里，我认为他来自前语法学院，他提出了一个非常好的观点，即不要尝试某件事往往比做得不好然后吸取错误的教训要好。

I guess, in your experience, what's a timeframe you think people should put into this stuff?

我想，根据您的经验，您认为人们应该在这方面投入多长时间？

You said two sprints, maybe a couple weeks.

你说两次冲刺，也许几周。

I don't know, what's the range of just maybe don't spend more than X months on something new if it's not clearly working, just based on your experience.

我不知道，如果新东西没有明显的效果，那么根据你的经验，也许不要花超过 X 个月的时间在新东西上的范围是多少。

Adam Grenier: Generally I wouldn't let anything bleed past a quarter.

Adam Grenier：一般来说，我不会让任何东西流过四分之一。

You can probably get some good signal in a month or less, what I would call fishing.

你可能会在一个月或更短的时间内收到一些好的信号，我称之为钓鱼。

It wouldn't be like you're just putting bait in the water to figure out where the fish are, not necessarily getting statistically significant repeatable solutions.

这不像您只是将诱饵放入水中来找出鱼在哪里，不一定能获得统计上显着的可重复解决方案。

The big variables that can change that timing, so if I'm exploring a new video channel, the content I need to create is if I'm going to have to create something that takes three weeks to produce and $20,000 to make, I may want to give it a little more time, because I gave it more of an upfront investment.

大的变量可以改变这个时间，所以如果我正在探索一个新的视频频道，我需要创建的内容是，如果我必须创建一个需要三周时间和 20,000 美元才能制作的东西，我可能想给它多一点时间，因为我给了它更多的前期投资。

Adam Grenier: Versus if it's like I want to put text ads in podcasts listings or something like that.

Adam Grenier：如果我想将文字广告放在播客列表或类似的东西中。

It's like, great, I can do that by myself at midnight and it's not distracting anybody or anything.

就像，太好了，我可以在午夜自己做这件事，而且不会分散任何人或任何事情的注意力。

And if it doesn't work in three weeks, let's move on.

如果三周内还没有效果，我们就继续吧。

But generally ideally what you're working through, and we'll touch a little bit more on this with the Growth CMO, is that this should all be part of a roadmap.

但通常理想情况下，您正在解决的问题（我们将与增长 CMO 进一步讨论）是，这一切都应该成为路线图的一部分。

It shouldn't just be randomly chosen and thrown at.

它不应该只是随机选择和抛出的。

This should be part of your sprint process and you should have a backlog of other things that you want to try.

这应该是你冲刺过程的一部分，并且你应该积压一些你想尝试的其他事情。

And so you're actually weighing that decision of how long based on what other opportunities you're missing out on by investing in that.

因此，您实际上是在根据您因投资而错过的其他机会来权衡持续时间的决定。

Adam Grenier: But I would say most channels, especially new ones, are going to take more than a couple cycles to kind of suss out.

Adam Grenier：但我想说，大多数频道，尤其是新频道，都需要几个周期以上的时间才能搞定。

Because there's no rules, there's no playbooks yet on how to do them well.

因为没有规则，所以还没有关于如何做好它们的剧本。

So, give it a little bit of time, but if you're going over a quarter and you don't feel like directionally it's getting better or it's interesting, I would put it back on ice for a while.

所以，给它一点时间，但如果你超过了四分之一，而你感觉方向没有变好或者很有趣，我会把它放回冰上一段时间。

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

And to your point, you're not going to see any statistically significant answers.

就您而言，您不会看到任何具有统计意义的答案。

Is the thing you look for just like you know it when you see it?

您所寻找的东西是否就像您看到它时就知道的那样？

Oh wow, qualitatively feels like it's working kind of thing?

哦，哇，从质量上来说，感觉它确实有效吗？

Is that what you kind of look for?

这就是你所寻找的吗？

Adam Grenier: Yeah, and I think define that going into it.

Adam Grenier：是的，我想对此进行定义。

What am I looking for, for this?

我在寻找什么？

So, something like Clubhouse I'm probably not going to see clicks.

所以，像俱乐部会所这样的东西我可能不会看到点击。

It's more about are we able to start a room and increase the size of that room by 10% every time that we run it?

更重要的是我们是否能够启动一个房间并在每次运行它时将该房间的大小增加 10%？

Okay great, that means that we're at least getting better at this and there's more reach available to us.

好吧，太好了，这意味着我们至少在这方面做得更好，并且我们可以覆盖更多的范围。

But if we're getting 20 people every time we start a room and then it goes down to 15, then we're either not doing this well, the channel's not doing well, or there's just not enough reach for us to actually expand.

但如果我们每次开一个房间时都会有 20 人，然后减少到 15 人，那么我们要么做得不好，要么渠道做得不好，要么没有足够的影响力来实际扩展。

Versus TikTok you might be able to say, "Great, I can actually track clicks and conversion, so let's look at it the way we would any other channel."

与 TikTok 相比，你可能会说，“太棒了，我实际上可以跟踪点击和转化，所以让我们像对待任何其他渠道一样看待它。”

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

So, kind of look for momentum and that you're getting better and that it's moving somewhere.

所以，寻找动力，你会变得更好，并且它正在向某个地方移动。

Awesome.

惊人的。

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

So, a question that I'm sure is on many people's minds that they would want to ask is, Adam, what are emerging platforms that are interesting right now that we should experiment with?

所以，我确信很多人心里想问的一个问题是，Adam，目前我们应该尝试哪些有趣的新兴平台？

What do you feel?

你有什么感觉？

Adam Grenier: So, I mean I mentioned OTT, or basically the key thing with OTT is that it's way more trackable than traditional television, but it has similar value that traditional TV does in terms of the ability to do more long form storytelling type content, and a lot of it's not skippable if you buy it.

Adam Grenier：所以，我的意思是我提到了 OTT，或者基本上 OTT 的关键是它比传统电视更容易追踪，但它与传统电视在提供更多长篇故事类型内容的能力方面具有类似的价值，而且如果你购买它，其中很多内容是不可跳过的。

And so those are reasons to be exploring that right now.

因此，这些都是现在就进行探索的原因。

It's hard for me to call that emerging channel, because it's been around forever.

我很难称这个新兴频道为“新兴频道”，因为它一直存在。

It's there's more of it and the tools and services around it are way better now than they were four years ago.

现在的内容更多了，围绕它的工具和服务比四年前要好得多。

And so I think the sophistication and ability to scale OTT is much higher now than ever before.

因此，我认为现在 OTT 的复杂性和扩展能力比以往任何时候都要高得多。

Influencers probably the one that I'm most intrigued by, because similar to OTT, the scale and services and the ability to go do it is still there.

有影响力的人可能是我最感兴趣的人，因为与 OTT 类似，规模、服务以及去做的能力仍然存在。

Adam Grenier: It's also got that hyper granularity that when I get into influencer tools, it feels to me like early Facebook when I used to go be able to target Lenny, or 10 people that have exactly the same likes as Lenny.

Adam Grenier：它还具有超粒度，当我使用影响者工具时，我感觉就像早期的 Facebook，当时我可以瞄准 Lenny，或者 10 个与 Lenny 具有完全相同喜欢的人。

And that type of stuff where it's like you can get so specific and find exactly who you need.

这类事情就像你可以变得如此具体并准确地找到你需要的人。

It's incredibly tedious and manual and it's a lot of relationship management.

这是非常乏味的手动操作，而且需要大量的关系管理。

So, I'm also keeping an eye on the technology being built around influencer, because I think that's a huge area of opportunity for entrepreneurs right now.

因此，我也在关注围绕影响者构建的技术，因为我认为这对于企业家来说是一个巨大的机会领域。

Adam Grenier: But generally speaking, the scope and opportunity there is huge and it's not going away, but it feels very new and different right now.

Adam Grenier：但总的来说，那里的范围和机会是巨大的，而且不会消失，但现在感觉非常新和不同。

And it supplements the ability to do some hyper level targeting that you've not been able to do, that Facebook and Google are getting less open about at the same time.

它补充了一些你无法做到的超水平定位的能力，而 Facebook 和谷歌同时变得越来越不开放。

I think VR is really interesting in the way that mobile was interesting before iPhone Three, where it was if you've got a VR app, it's a really interesting space, but if you don't, it's not that interesting to me yet.

我认为 VR 真的很有趣，就像 iPhone 3 之前的移动设备很有趣一样，如果你有一个 VR 应用程序，那是一个非常有趣的空间，但如果你没有，它对我来说还没有那么有趣。

Any that have come up for you that you're like...

任何你喜欢的东西都出现了......

what are your thoughts on this?

你对此有何看法？

Lenny: No, these are great.

莱尼：不，这些都很棒。

All I think of is TikTok.

我只想到TikTok。

Adam Grenier: I feel like TikTok's crossed a chasm, whereas they actually have a formalized ad platform now, people are finding scale.

Adam Grenier：我觉得 TikTok 已经跨越了鸿沟，虽然他们现在实际上已经有了一个正式的广告平台，但人们正在寻找规模。

There's still a ton to do there and influencers is also weird, because it crosses all of these other worlds as well.

那里还有很多事情要做，影响者也很奇怪，因为它也跨越所有其他世界。

But I think TikTok is actually hyper interesting and everyone should be doing that.

但我认为 TikTok 实际上非常有趣，每个人都应该这样做。

But I think of that less as you should be doing it as should I do it, should I not?

但我认为这不像你应该做的那样，我也应该这样做，不是吗？

And it's more I need to figure out how to do Facebook if I'm at least mildly appropriately should be there.

我更需要弄清楚如何做Facebook，如果我至少稍微合适的话应该在那里。

Adam Grenier: The podcast ads I think are great.

Adam Grenier：我认为播客广告很棒。

I think that I bought podcast ads 15 years ago, so it doesn't feel like an emerging channel to me.

我想我 15 年前就购买了播客广告，所以对我来说它并不像是一个新兴频道。

I think there's way more volume now than there's ever been before.

我认为现在的数量比以往任何时候都要多。

One of the guys that was on my team at Uber has a company that's doing programmatic buying and that type of stuff.

我在 Uber 团队中的一个人拥有一家从事程序化购买之类的公司。

And so I think there's more opportunities on podcast.

所以我认为播客有更多的机会。

I think people want to treat it like Facebook ads or direct response ads, immediate response ads.

我认为人们希望将其视为 Facebook 广告或直接响应广告、即时响应广告。

And actually what I keep seeing as the effective strategy with podcast ads is treating them more like radio where it's more about getting on the right program, making it personal and feel like it should be part of that program, and then repeating over and over and over again.

事实上，我一直认为播客广告的有效策略是将它们视为广播，更多的是选择正确的节目，使其个性化并感觉它应该成为该节目的一部分，然后一遍又一遍地重复。

Adam Grenier: So, I think podcast is super interesting.

Adam Grenier：所以，我认为播客非常有趣。

I think it's just hard to scale.

我认为这很难扩展。

It's likely not going to get people the same volumes as the Googles and Facebooks of the world.

它可能不会像世界上的谷歌和 Facebook 那样为人们带来同样的流量。

Lenny: Cue our mid-roll ad.

莱尼：请注意我们的中贴片广告。

I'm excited to chat with my friend John Cutler from Podcast sponsor, Amplitude.

我很高兴能与来自播客赞助商 Amplitude 的朋友 John Cutler 聊天。

Hey John.

嘿约翰。

John Cutler: Hey, Lenny.

约翰·卡特勒：嘿，莱尼。

Excited to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Lenny: John, give us a behind the scenes at Amplitude.

莱尼：约翰，请给我们介绍一下 Amplitude 的幕后花絮。

When most people think of Amplitude, they think of product analytics, but now you're getting into experimentation and even just launched a CDP.

当大多数人想到 Amplitude 时，他们会想到产品分析，但现在您正在进入实验，甚至刚刚推出了 CDP。

What's the thought process there?

那里的思维过程是怎样的？

John Cutler: Well, we've always thought of Amplitude as being about supporting the full product loop.

John Cutler：嗯，我们一直认为 Amplitude 是为了支持整个产品循环。

Think collect data, inform bets, ship experiments and learn.

思考收集数据、告知投注、进行实验并学习。

That's the heart of growth to us.

这就是我们成长的核心。

So, the big aha was seen how many customers were using Amplitude to analyze experiments, use segments for outreach and send data to other destinations.

因此，令人惊奇的是有多少客户使用 Amplitude 来分析实验、使用分段进行推广以及将数据发送到其他目的地。

Experiment and CDP came out of listening to and observing our customers.

实验和 CDP 源于倾听和观察客户的意见。

Lenny: And supporting growth and learning has always been Amplitude's core focus, right?

Lenny：支持成长和学习一直是 Amplitude 的核心重点，对吧？

John Cutler: Yeah.

约翰·卡特勒：是的。

So, Amplitude tries to meet customers where they are.

因此，Amplitude 试图满足客户的需求。

We just launched starter templates and have a great scholarship program for startups.

我们刚刚推出了入门模板，并为初创公司提供了很棒的奖学金计划。

There's never been a more important time for growth.

对于成长来说，从未有过如此重要的时刻。

Lenny: Absolutely agree.

莱尼：绝对同意。

Thanks for joining us, John, and head to amplitude.com to get started.

约翰，感谢您加入我们，请前往振幅.com 开始。

Adam Grenier: I also come from a very consumer perspective.

Adam Grenier：我也是从消费者的角度出发的。

I'm actually stronger on B2B companies using podcasting, because it has that exact same value I just described, but each one of their customers is substantially more valuable.

事实上，我更看好使用播客的 B2B 公司，因为它具有我刚才描述的完全相同的价值，但他们的每一位客户都更有价值。

So, they don't need the scale that a consumer application or product would need.

因此，他们不需要消费者应用程序或产品所需的规模。

Lenny: Yep.

莱尼：是的。

That's exactly who I work with usually.

这就是我通常一起工作的人。

One last question on this topic.

关于这个主题的最后一个问题。

What percentage of the time do you find that an emerging channel works?

您发现新兴渠道有效的几率是多少？

Is it like 20% of the time, 10%, 5%?

是 20%、10%、5% 的情况吗？

What should people estimate, it's probably not going to work but when it does it's going to be game changing?

人们应该估计什么，它可能不会起作用，但当它起作用时，就会改变游戏规则？

Adam Grenier: Like 5% of the time.

Adam Grenier：大约 5% 的时间。

There's new things popping up all the time.

总是有新事物出现。

I think the area that I think of as emerging that I've found more success in is taking things that exist already and make them...

我认为我所认为的新兴领域取得了更大的成功，那就是利用已经存在的东西并创造它们......

so the two slices of it are either it's existed for a long...

所以它的两片要么已经存在很长时间了......

like podcasting.

就像播客一样。

So, it existed for a long time and now we're finally getting to a spot where it feels scalable.

所以，它已经存在了很长一段时间，现在我们终于达到了可扩展的程度。

The other is existing channels that introduce something brand new.

另一个是引入全新事物的现有渠道。

Adam Grenier: So, at the mobile ads I described on Facebook, pre mobile install ads and post.

Adam Grenier：所以，在我在 Facebook 上描述的移动广告中，移动前安装广告和发布。

Those first 18 months of mobile install felt like an emerging channel, right?

移动安装的前 18 个月感觉像是一个新兴渠道，对吗？

Because they were changing the product every week and tracking didn't work, and there were all these funky problems with it even though Facebook had been around forever.

因为他们每周都会改变产品，而跟踪不起作用，而且尽管 Facebook 已经存在了很久，但仍然存在所有这些奇怪的问题。

But brand spanking new channels, I don't know, they rarely work or are worth the effort early that you hope that they will be.

但是品牌全新的渠道，我不知道，它们很少起作用，或者值得您尽早付出努力。

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

But when they work, it's game changing I imagine.

但当他们发挥作用时，我想这会改变游戏规则。

Reminds me Apples coming out with Apple TV, I think it was, and they're just like, "Hey Airbnb, you should make it app for Apple TV.

让我想起苹果公司推出了 Apple TV，我想是的，他们只是说，“嘿 Airbnb，你应该为 Apple TV 制作它的应用程序。

It'll be huge." And there's a team put on it.

这将会是巨大的。”并且有一个团队在上面。

I don't know.

我不知道。

They spent a month building this app and did a bunch of nothing as far as I understand, but it felt good.

他们花了一个月的时间来构建这个应用程序，据我所知，他们什么也没做，但感觉很好。

It felt good to be part of the launch.

成为发布的一部分感觉很好。

One question I wanted to come back to, are there tools that you recommend for influencer marketing that you want to plug, or point out?

我想回到一个问题，您是否推荐一些您想要插入或指出的影响者营销工具？

Adam Grenier: We were using Grin at Masterclass, we onboarded them.

Adam Grenier：我们在大师班上使用了 Grin，我们也加入了它们。

So, there's probably half a dozen companies in that same zone where they're building tools that allow you to do the discovery of influencers, the CRM of those influencers, and also often the measurement and payments and all that kind of stuff.

因此，同一区域可能有六家公司正在构建工具，让您能够发现影响者、这些影响者的 CRM，以及衡量和支付等所有类似的东西。

So, it's an all in one type of management platform.

因此，它是一个一体化的管理平台。

That being said though, like I said, it's still super manual.

尽管如此，正如我所说，它仍然是超级手动的。

It's nice to be able to go and find this list of 50 influencers that are the exact right influencer for this class launch, or whatever it might be.

很高兴能够找到这份包含 50 位影响者的名单，他们是本次课程发布或其他任何活动的最合适的影响者。

Adam Grenier: But it's still then I have to wait till they all respond to me and there's still a lot of manual back and forth.

Adam Grenier：但我仍然必须等到他们都回复我，并且仍然有很多手动来回。

So, that's probably one of them.

所以，这可能就是其中之一。

I'm trying to think of...

我正在努力想...

There's a few other in that same category that are competitive with Grin that they all seem equally pretty good.

同一类别中还有其他一些与 Grin 竞争的产品，它们看起来都同样不错。

I can't even remember the reason we chose Grin over some of the other ones.

我什至不记得我们选择 Grin 而不是其他一些的原因。

Lenny: Sweet.

莱尼：甜甜的。

Okay.

好的。

If any other comes to mind, we'll throw it in the show notes.

如果想到其他任何内容，我们会将其放入演出笔记中。

Before we get to the growth CMO discussion, there's kind of this tangential area that I wanted to spend a little time on, which is this idea of as a startup you initially should and often do start with a very narrow audience, your early adopters.

在我们开始讨论增长 CMO 之前，我想花一点时间讨论这个切题领域，这就是作为一家初创公司，你最初应该并且经常从非常狭窄的受众（你的早期采用者）开始的想法。

I read this post about calling them your super specific who, and eventually you want to cross the chasm and go broader.

我读过这篇关于称他们为你的超级具体人物的文章，最终你想跨越鸿沟并走得更远。

And you have some interesting insights on how to think about that, and when to do that.

关于如何思考这个问题以及何时思考这个问题，你有一些有趣的见解。

Can you talk about that?

你能谈谈吗？

Adam Grenier: Yeah.

亚当·格雷尼尔：是的。

So, I think the book, Crossing the Chasm, is a great place to start in terms of thinking about the broader topic of that.

因此，我认为《跨越鸿沟》这本书是思考更广泛主题的一个很好的起点。

What I see missed a lot of the time that I like to spend time with people on is to really understand that those early adopters are often just drastically different than the broad audience.

我发现我错过了很多我喜欢与人们共度时光的时间，那就是真正理解那些早期采用者往往与广大受众截然不同。

And spending time to actually figure that out and map out what you need to see with those early adopters to have confidence that the product is actually going to have product market fit beyond them.

花时间真正弄清楚这一点，并规划出您需要与那些早期采用者一起看到的内容，以确信该产品实际上将拥有超越他们的产品市场。

Adam Grenier: So, I don't have anything hyper specific to add to that necessarily, or happy to dig in deeper to it, but it's probably the biggest challenge that I've seen with a lot of companies that I've worked with.

Adam Grenier：所以，我没有任何非常具体的内容可以补充，或者很乐意深入研究，但这可能是我在与我合作过的许多公司中看到的最大挑战。

And then as I do more investing and things like that, it's probably the biggest flag that I see with a lot of companies that claim to have product market fit, which is your TAM and your product market fit are not using the same definition.

然后，当我进行更多投资和类似的事情时，这可能是我在许多声称拥有产品市场契合度的公司中看到的最大标志，即你的 TAM 和你的产品市场契合度没有使用相同的定义。

And that problem I think is often just a red flag for a lot of companies that I meet.

我认为这个问题对于我遇到的许多公司来说通常只是一个危险信号。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

So, essentially you often underestimate how challenging it'll be to grow from your initial early adopter crowd.

因此，从本质上讲，您经常低估了从最初的早期采用者群体中成长起来的挑战性。

Is there an example of that happening where a company just got screwed because they didn't think about that enough?

有没有这样的例子：一家公司因为考虑得不够而被搞砸了？

Or is there something someone can do early on?

或者有人可以尽早做一些事情吗？

Is it test a little bit more broadly early?

是否早期进行了更广泛的测试？

What do you recommend there?

你在那里推荐什么？

Adam Grenier: I mean Clubhouse might be a good example in the sense that they leaned into the broader audience maybe quicker than they should have.

Adam Grenier：我的意思是 Clubhouse 可能是一个很好的例子，因为他们比应有的速度更快地吸引了更广泛的受众。

Their product market fit seemed to fit the moment in time and could they have built some experiments, or tools, or features that maybe stress tested will this work in an ongoing fashion?

他们的产品市场契合度似乎适合当时的情况，他们是否可以建立一些实验、工具或功能来进行压力测试，这是否会持续有效？

If they were on such tear, that's a pretty hard decision to make, I'm sure.

我确信，如果他们如此伤心，那将是一个非常艰难的决定。

Lenny: So hard, it's easy in hindsight.

莱尼：太难了，事后看来很容易。

Adam Grenier: I think that's another piece of it is that the audience changes aren't always just literal people.

Adam Grenier：我认为另一点是观众的变化并不总是只是字面上的人。

Even right now, one of the biggest pieces of advice I'm giving to people that are like, "How should we adjust our marketing with the economic changes and things like that?" I was like, "Start by assuming you no longer have product market fit, because you had product market fit in a different market.

即使是现在，我给人们的最重要的建议之一是，“我们应该如何根据经济变化和类似的事情调整我们的营销？”我当时想，“首先假设你不再有产品市场契合度，因为你的产品市场契合度在不同的市场。

It's a different market now, so you have to start over."

现在市场不同了，所以你必须重新开始。”

Adam Grenier: And hopefully you do, or it's pretty close to it and you just have to adjust a couple things and you can be right back on track.

Adam Grenier：希望你能做到，或者已经非常接近了，你只需要调整一些事情就可以回到正轨。

But if you just assume you need to launch a new channel to fix this problem, you're going to be wrong, because your entire customer base changed, not just the next 10% of customers that you're looking for.

但如果您只是假设需要推出新渠道来解决此问题，那么您就错了，因为您的整个客户群发生了变化，而不仅仅是您正在寻找的接下来 10% 的客户发生了变化。

Lenny: It's just a reminder of how freaking hard startups are.

莱尼：这只是提醒我们初创公司是多么的艰难。

Man, we have product market fit.

伙计，我们有适合市场的产品。

Okay, we're done.

好的，我们完成了。

Let's move on.

让我们继续吧。

Lenny: Not anymore.

莱尼：不再是了。

Oh man.

噢，伙计。

Okay, sweet.

好吧，亲爱的。

So, onto this next topic around the Growth CMO.

那么，接下来的主题是关于增长 CMO。

So, you're this really interesting combination of marketing brain and also very analytical growth person, and I think you refer to this as Growth CMO, which I don't actually hear the term much.

所以，你是一个非常有趣的营销大脑和非常善于分析的成长型人才的组合，我认为你将其称为成长型首席营销官，我实际上并没有太多听到这个词。

So, I'm curious, what is a Growth CMO?

所以，我很好奇，什么是增长型 CMO？

How do you define it?

你如何定义它？

And why is it important?

为什么它很重要？

Adam Grenier: Yeah, so it's something I've just spent a lot of the last few years thinking about, specifically because now I've been at a handful of companies where we've brought in CMOs that in all ways are absolute world class CMOs, and they don't last, they don't fit and they don't succeed.

Adam Grenier：是的，所以这是我过去几年花了很多时间思考的事情，特别是因为现在我已经在几家公司工作过，我们引进的 CMO 在各方面都是绝对世界级的 CMO，但他们不会持久，他们不适合，也不会成功。

And so I've spent a lot of time and figuring, well, why not?

所以我花了很多时间思考，为什么不呢？

Some of it coming because of spending time with those people being like, "Why are you doing it this way?

其中一些是因为与这些人共度时光，他们会说：“你为什么要这样做？

That's not how a company at our stage operates."

这不是我们这个阶段的公司的运作方式。”

Adam Grenier: Trying to do it the way that a traditional CMO would've done marketing for a company, et cetera.

Adam Grenier：尝试以传统 CMO 为公司进行营销等的方式来做到这一点。

One of the key examples I like to use is brand, in that everybody when they think about brand they think of it as an action, not as a consistent ongoing investment, or they think about it as campaigns and things like that.

我喜欢使用的一个关键例子是品牌，因为每个人在考虑品牌时都会将其视为一种行动，而不是持续的持续投资，或者他们将其视为活动或类似的事情。

And from planning to execution to learnings, a traditional CMO will drive learnings and identify learnings.

从规划到执行再到学习，传统的首席营销官将推动学习并识别学习内容。

And in my mind, I think a Growth CMO is looking at each brand investment as how do you then immediately follow that up with the next one?

在我看来，我认为增长首席营销官正在考虑每一项品牌投资，然后如何立即跟进下一项品牌投资？

How do you shift to this fast product iteration mindset with even things like brand?

您如何转变到这种快速产品迭代的思维方式，甚至包括品牌之类的事情？

Adam Grenier: It's very possible, but it's so counter to a lot of traditional marketing DNA.

Adam Grenier：这很有可能，但它与许多传统营销 DNA 背道而驰。

That, to me, means that we have a lot of mismatch marketing leadership, and that quickly eliminates trust with the marketing organization.

对我来说，这意味着我们的营销领导层存在很多不匹配的情况，这很快就会消除对营销组织的信任。

It means that we rename everything marketing to product led growth, or growth, or referral programs.

这意味着我们将所有营销活动重新命名为产品主导的增长、增长或推荐计划。

To me, it actually dilutes the value of marketing should be playing in the company.

对我来说，这实际上削弱了营销在公司中应发挥的价值。

And it doesn't mean that the traditional marketing CMO isn't a good fit for some companies.

这并不意味着传统的营销 CMO 不适合某些公司。

Adam Grenier: I think the direct to consumer products are still very well suited to have a more traditional CMO.

Adam Grenier：我认为直接面向消费者的产品仍然非常适合拥有更传统的 CMO。

But I think product driven companies, product led companies, if you are CMO and your product leader aren't married at the hip, you're just missing out on just tons of opportunity, and the likelihood of things actually working very well consistently and compounding on each other.

但我认为产品驱动的公司，产品主导的公司，如果你是首席营销官，而你的产品负责人没有结婚，那么你只是错过了大量的机会，以及事情实际上一直运行良好并相互复合的可能性。

Lenny: So, what are the attributes of this person of what you call a Growth CMO?

Lenny：那么，这个被您称为增长型 CMO 的人有哪些特质呢？

Sounds like partly it's being much more performance driven.

听起来部分它更多地是由性能驱动的。

Sounds like a big part of it is understanding product and not creating these silos.

听起来其中很大一部分是了解产品而不是创建这些孤岛。

We're going to market the thing, you guys go build this thing.

我们要推销这个东西，你们去建造这个东西。

But also as a person, that's a great CMO.

但作为一个人，这也是一位出色的首席营销官。

What else do you look for?

您还寻找什么？

Adam Grenier: So, I would say so data driven generally.

Adam Grenier：所以，我想说一般来说是数据驱动的。

To me performance is a very loaded word in our world, because people think, especially in marketing, think that means not brand.

对我来说，性能在我们的世界中是一个非常沉重的词，因为人们认为，尤其是在营销领域，认为这意味着不意味着品牌。

But they're very data driven.

但它们是非常数据驱动的。

And so when we take things like retention and even brand and the consideration funnel and, yes, you can't measure those exactly like you can measure landing page clicks and sales, but you absolutely can measure them.

因此，当我们考虑保留率、甚至品牌和考虑渠道等因素时，是的，您无法像衡量着陆页点击量和销售量那样准确地衡量这些内容，但您绝对可以衡量它们。

And making that part of the DNA of everything that's happening, data being part of that, I think is pretty quintessential of being a growth driven CMO.

我认为，让这一点成为正在发生的一切的 DNA 的一部分，让数据成为其中的一部分，这是作为增长驱动型 CMO 的精髓。

Adam Grenier: The second, I think, is the iteration process is not thinking about things and, "Hey, we need to plan for the next 24 months," but you can still do that and you can still have a vision and everything.

Adam Grenier：我认为，第二个是迭代过程没有思考事情，“嘿，我们需要为未来 24 个月做好计划”，但你仍然可以这样做，你仍然可以拥有愿景和一切。

But having that more of a agile type approach to everything.

但对所有事情都采取更加敏捷的方法。

And again, this could be the storytelling that your sales people are doing, to what are your landing pages look like, to what is the design of your logo, to the brand itself.

再说一次，这可能是你的销售人员正在做的故事，你的登陆页面是什么样子，你的标志设计是什么，品牌本身。

All of those things, like being more open to everything being possibly iterated on, on a regular basis using data to validate that and challenge what has worked for you.

所有这些事情，比如对可能迭代的所有事情更加开放，定期使用数据来验证并挑战对你有用的东西。

Adam Grenier: We live in such a real time world now, especially with product driven companies.

Adam Grenier：我们现在生活在一个实时的世界，尤其是产品驱动的公司。

The things change so quickly.

事情变化得太快了。

If you as a marketing leader aren't being iterative and thoughtful about things with it, you'll get eaten alive.

如果你作为营销领导者不反复思考并深思熟虑，你就会被活活吃掉。

And then I think experimentation is just a huge piece of it.

然后我认为实验只是其中的一个重要部分。

And something that I see a lot of more traditional marketing leaders, the idea of experimentation is try a new channel.

我看到很多传统的营销领导者的实验理念就是尝试新的渠道。

It's not like how do we experiment with our brand?

这不像我们如何尝试我们的品牌？

How do we experiment with the funnel?

我们如何用漏斗进行实验？

The whole picture, not just the top of the funnel or the external elements of it.

整个画面，而不仅仅是漏斗的顶部或其外部元素。

Adam Grenier: One of the things that I haven't quite figured out the right language to put against this, but the traditional model of marketing is the four P's, product, placement, promotion, pricing.

Adam Grenier：其中一件事我还没有完全找到合适的语言来反对这一点，但传统的营销模式是 4P，即产品、投放、促销、定价。

And in my mind, the world that we live in now, product is no longer a part of marketing, but it's actually they're married at the hip.

在我看来，在我们现在生活的世界中，产品不再是营销的一部分，但实际上它们已经结婚了。

They're one and the same, and most companies aren't operating that way.

它们是一回事，但大多数公司并不是这样运作的。

They're still operating as if they're two wildly different things.

他们仍然在运作，就好像他们是两个截然不同的东西一样。

Even if they say they're working together, it's still, there's not.

即使他们说他们正在合作，但仍然没有。

And to me it's just like, no, no, the product, it is the company now.

对我来说，这就像，不，不，产品，现在是公司。

Adam Grenier: And the marketing is integrated with literally every single piece of it.

Adam Grenier：营销实际上与它的每一个部分都融为一体。

A lot of traditional marketing got established in the 1920s and the 1950s around products that took years to develop or try, or a product team was a science group trying new flavors of cereal.

许多传统营销是在 20 世纪 20 年代和 20 世纪 50 年代围绕需要多年开发或尝试的产品建立的，或者产品团队是尝试新口味谷物的科学小组。

And so the marketing team owned the box, where it went on the shelf and what the price was and all of those kinds of things was marketing, because product was such a wildly different part of the organization.

因此，营销团队拥有盒子、它在货架上的位置以及价格，所有这些都是营销，因为产品是组织中截然不同的一部分。

And I think still there's just a lot of fundamental things that marketers think about that are stuck in that world, because most haven't had to grow through the true growth of a business that's just being established today.

我认为，营销人员所思考的许多基本问题仍然停留在这个世界上，因为大多数事情都不需要通过今天刚刚建立的业务的真正增长来实现增长。

Lenny: And the assumption is every software company should be hiring a CMO that is of this sort, of a Growth CMO, right?

Lenny：假设每家软件公司都应该聘请一位此类的 CMO，即增长型 CMO，对吗？

Adam Grenier: Yeah.

亚当·格雷尼尔：是的。

And I would say that my sense is that there's very few marketing leaders that can't be a Growth CMO.

我想说的是，我的感觉是，很少有营销领导者不能成为增长型首席营销官。

So, I don't think you have to have come up as a performance driven experimentation.

因此，我认为您不必进行性能驱动的实验。

It's more about adapting and growing.

更多的是关于适应和成长。

And again, the fundamentals are all the same.

再说一次，基本原理都是一样的。

One of my pet projects that I haven't done anything with yet, is that every time something new comes out in the growth world, I go back in history as far as I can to try to find the earliest example of that.

我还没有做过任何事情的一个最喜欢的项目是，每当增长世界中出现新的东西时，我都会尽可能地回顾历史，试图找到最早的例子。

Just to be able to say, "Look, this isn't new, but we can learn from the way that Coca-Cola invented the coupon."

只是为了能够说，“看，这并不新鲜，但我们可以向可口可乐发明优惠券的方式学习。”

Adam Grenier: The first known coupon was Coca-Cola giving away Coke for free, but it was actually a marketplace, because what they would do is they would go to a town and they would go to the soda fountain and they would give a free Coke syrup to that side of the market and they would give coupons to the other side of the market to spark it, to get it going.

Adam Grenier：第一个已知的优惠券是可口可乐免费赠送可口可乐，但它实际上是一个市场，因为他们会做的是他们会去一个城镇，他们会去冷饮柜，他们会向市场的一侧提供免费的可乐糖浆，他们会向市场的另一侧提供优惠券以激发它，使其运转起来。

And then it's like, well, now all the customers want Coke, now you need to supply it, you'll pay for it.

然后就好像，好吧，现在所有的顾客都想要可口可乐，现在你需要提供它，你就要付钱。

And learning that and understanding that is really cool.

学习并理解这一点真的很酷。

And it's just interesting to me, because I'm a huge nerd.

这对我来说很有趣，因为我是一个超级书呆子。

Adam Grenier: But that to me is all of the things that great marketing leaders have learned are right, it's the operating aspect of those insights and those skills and understanding your customer and their psychology.

Adam Grenier：但对我来说，伟大的营销领导者学到的所有东西都是正确的，这些见解和技能以及对客户及其心理的理解的操作方面。

All of those things have stayed the same.

所有这些事情都保持不变。

It's the operating of it in the way a growth organization, like a product driven growth organization operates, is very fundamentally different than the way a traditional marketing run organization had run.

成长型组织的运作方式，比如产品驱动型成长型组织的运作方式，与传统营销运作组织的运作方式有根本的不同。

Lenny: I was going to ask you what a marketing leader can do to evolve into this where you think things are going, and your point about you're capable of it, you can iterate and adapt is really great and empowering.

莱尼：我想问你，营销领导者可以做些什么来发展到你认为事情正在发展的状态，而你关于你有能力做到这一点，你可以迭代和适应的观点真的很棒并且充满力量。

Is there anything specific they can do to learn how to do this better, other than is it like mentorship?

除了指导之外，他们还可以做些什么来学习如何做得更好？

Is there classes, courses?

有课程、课程吗？

Just do the job, figure it out?

干完活就明白了？

Do you have anything you can suggest there to folks listening and they're like, "Oh, shit.

你有什么可以建议给那些听的人吗，他们会说，“哦，糟糕。

I'm in trouble?"

我遇到麻烦了？”

Adam Grenier: Honestly, I think learn product development.

Adam Grenier：老实说，我认为学习产品开发。

Go learn agile product development.

去学习敏捷产品开发。

And there's actually a book called Hacking Marketing, I think.

我认为实际上有一本书叫做《黑客营销》。

I'll confirm.

我会确认一下。

But it's essentially how to run a marketing team on Agile.

但这本质上是如何以敏捷方式管理营销团队。

That to me is just, again, any great marketing leader should be able to go and consume how to do product development, how to run a product like sprints and those types of things.

对我来说，再次强调，任何伟大的营销领导者都应该能够去了解如何进行产品开发，如何运行冲刺之类的产品。

And their mind, if they're great marketing CMO or a CMO, will be like, "Oh my gosh, I could do this with this big event that we want to host.

如果他们是出色的营销首席营销官或首席营销官，他们的想法会是，“天哪，我可以通过我们想要举办的大型活动来做到这一点。

I could do this with everything."

我可以用一切来做到这一点。”

Adam Grenier: There's nothing off the table when you actually learn those fundamentals.

Adam Grenier：当你真正学习这些基础知识时，没有什么是不可能的。

But as well as I know smart people can learn that stuff.

但据我所知，聪明的人可以学到这些东西。

There's lots of resources out there.

那里有很多资源。

Reforge has some classes on it, there's a bunch of new product led growth classes out in the wild, like Maven I think has a couple.

Reforge 有一些课程，还有很多新产品主导的增长课程，我认为 Maven 也有一些。

And there's a variety of those types of things that just going and doing it, you don't have to go and operate it yourself.

还有各种各样的事情，只要去做就可以了，你不必自己去操作。

You don't have to go become a product manager.

你不必去成为一名产品经理。

But understanding those skills and those systems will, one, I think make you think differently about how to run your marketing team and, two, make you exponentially better at working with your product organization.

但是，了解这些技能和系统，第一，我认为会让你以不同的方式思考如何管理你的营销团队，第二，让你在与产品组织的合作方面取得更好的成绩。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I'm actually hearing from folks listening to this podcast not live right now, but broadly, that this is a good way to learn how product works and how product leaders think.

实际上，我从现在收听该播客的人们那里听到，但从广义上讲，这是了解产品如何工作以及产品领导者如何思考的好方法。

So, that's interesting.

所以，这很有趣。

So, if you're listening to this, good job.

所以，如果你正在听这个，干得好。

You also mentioned that a lot of marketing leaders don't work out at a company, they join, they leave, things go wrong.

您还提到，很多营销领导者不在公司工作，他们加入，离开，事情就会出错。

As a hiring founder or leader, what do you look for to tell you this person's probably not what we need and not what you'd call a Growth CMO?

作为一名招聘创始人或领导者，您会通过什么来判断这个人可能不是我们所需要的人，也不是您所谓的增长型 CMO？

What are flags that are like they're probably not going to adapt and evolve to the way we want to operate?

哪些标志可能不会适应和发展到我们想要的操作方式？

Adam Grenier: So, I think first and foremost, it obviously depends on the stage.

Adam Grenier：所以，我认为首先也是最重要的，这显然取决于舞台。

Anything let's say C or below, comfortable with chaos and willingness to go do something they have not done for probably 15 years are two huge signals for me, because every company I've been part of at every scale now, which is all of them basically, that's the thing that a lot of people coming from more traditional marketing environments into startup worlds, it's a pace and just the unpredictability and change and those kinds of things are just at such a higher rate than they've seen for a long time that it can be really jarring for people.

任何让我们说C或以下的事情，适应混乱和愿意去做他们可能15年没有做过的事情对我来说都是两个巨大的信号，因为我现在参与过的每家公司都具有不同规模，基本上都是这样，这就是很多人从更传统的营销环境进入初创公司的世界，这是一种节奏，只是不可预测性和变化，这类事情的速度比他们长期以来看到的要快。确实让人不舒服。

Adam Grenier: And I think it's totally reasonable.

Adam Grenier：我认为这是完全合理的。

It's crazy, right?

太疯狂了，对吧？

If anybody that's had the exposure on both sides.

如果有人两边都有暴露。

And then the willingness to go do the work.

然后愿意去做这项工作。

People are churning constantly and the challenges are different every week and those types of things.

人们不断地流动，每周面临的挑战都不同，诸如此类。

And so it's like every now and then you've got to go write an email or you've got to go open up Facebook and get into the weeds with it with your team, into the data of it and that type of stuff.

因此，就像时不时地你必须去写一封电子邮件，或者你必须打开 Facebook 并与你的团队一起深入研究它的数据和类似的东西。

And that's stuff that I don't want to do, personally, me.

就我个人而言，这是我不想做的事情。

I'm past the point where I should be in Facebook.

我已经过了 Facebook 应该呆的时间了。

Adam Grenier: But man, when I need to, I'm willing to, and I'll go get in the weeds with it and I'll use my time to just be like, "Look, we have to figure this out now." And I'm going to go do the things that I thought I was done with in my career.

Adam Grenier：但是伙计，当我需要的时候，我愿意，我会用它来解决这个问题，我会利用我的时间，“看，我们现在必须解决这个问题。”我将去做我认为在我的职业生涯中已经完成的事情。

So, those are pretty big ones.

所以，这些都是相当大的。

I think then generally speaking, one of the exercises I like to take founders through when they're hiring a marketing leader is every marketer is going to have a T-shaped career.

我认为一般来说，我喜欢让创始人在招聘营销领导者时进行的练习之一是，每个营销人员都将拥有 T 型职业生涯。

Adam Grenier: Everybody came from something they probably became awesome at and then over time just expanded their purview.

Adam Grenier：每个人都来自于他们可能变得很擅长的领域，然后随着时间的推移，他们的范围不断扩大。

So, for me it was mobile.

所以，对我来说它是移动的。

I got into mobile.

我进入了移动领域。

My first client ever was on Sun Microsystems early 2000s, getting Java developers to make apps for flip phones.

我的第一个客户是 2000 年代初的 Sun Microsystems，让 Java 开发人员为翻盖手机开发应用程序。

So, I just knew digital mobile world really, really well before a lot of people did.

所以，我比很多人更了解数字移动世界。

But then eventually I'm like, "Great, now I'm running an entire digital marketing team.

但最终我会想，“太棒了，现在我正在管理整个数字营销团队。

Now I'm running an entire marketing team.

现在我正在管理整个营销团队。

Now I'm getting into growth.

现在我已经进入成长阶段了。

Now I want to learn product," and I've expanded.

现在我想学习产品，”并且我已经扩展了。

And so typically it's going through that exercise of find out their T, find out their strength, and then spend time figuring out how they make up for those other things.

因此，通常会通过这样的练习来找出他们的 T，找出他们的优势，然后花时间弄清楚他们如何弥补其他事情。

Adam Grenier: So, for me, at Lambda school I ran our PR team for a while.

Adam Grenier：所以，对我来说，在 Lambda 学校，我管理我们的公关团队一段时间。

I am not a PR person, but I make it a goal in my life to get to the valley of despair of the Dunning-Kruger effect, to be like, "Great, I just need to know how bad I am at PR," because if I still think I'm good at it, that's not a good place for me to be.

我不是公关人员，但我的人生目标是到达邓宁-克鲁格效应的绝望谷，“太好了，我只需要知道我在公关方面有多糟糕”，因为如果我仍然认为自己擅长公关，那对我来说就不是一个好地方。

But once I know how bad it is, I now know I need to go hire the right person to come in and I'm going to listen to them.

但一旦我知道情况有多糟糕，我现在知道我需要聘请合适的人进来，并且我会听取他们的意见。

I'm not going to assume that I'm smarter than them, and those types of things.

我不会假设我比他们更聪明，或者诸如此类的事情。

And so I think the same thing with product questions and data questions and experimentation questions for this concept of a Growth CMO is like, well, somebody's coming from a world where they've not had to work really closely with the product team, spend time with them to figure out how they plan on adapting to that.

因此，我认为对于增长型首席营销官这一概念的产品问题、数据问题和实验问题来说，同样的事情就像，好吧，某人来自一个他们不必与产品团队真正密切合作的世界，花时间与他们一起弄清楚他们计划如何适应这一点。

Adam Grenier: My guess is most won't have thought of that.

Adam Grenier：我猜大多数人都不会想到这一点。

The good ones will be able to figure it out together with you in that interview, or afterwards, or whatever it might be.

好的人会在那次面试中或之后或任何可能的情况下与您一起解决这个问题。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Maybe one day we'll do a follow-up chat just to dive into hiring a marketing person.

也许有一天我们会进行一次后续聊天，以便深入雇用一名营销人员。

I know that's a whole deep topic.

我知道这是一个很深奥的话题。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Oh man.

噢，伙计。

Okay.

好的。

We've got to book that.

我们必须预订那个。

But, okay.

但是，好吧。

So, you mentioned the valley of despair, and that's a good segue to our next topic.

所以，你提到了绝望之谷，这是我们下一个主题的一个很好的延续。

So, I found this old tweet of yours where you talk about burnout and depression, and you kind of make this point that a lot of times you feel like it's burnout and it's actually depression.

所以，我发现了你的这条旧推文，你在其中谈论了职业倦怠和抑郁，你在某种程度上指出了这一点，很多时候你觉得这是职业倦怠，实际上是抑郁。

And just broadly mental health is just this topic that's not really spoken a lot about in tech and in business.

从广义上讲，心理健康这个话题在科技和商业领域并没有被广泛讨论。

And so I'd love to just spend a little time on this.

所以我愿意花一点时间在这上面。

I know you're a big proponent of talking about these sorts of things, so I'm curious, I know you've been through both these things and I'm curious just to hear your journey, what that's been like, and what you've learned about how to get through it?

我知道你非常支持谈论这类事情，所以我很好奇，我知道你经历过这两件事，我很好奇只是想听听你的旅程，那是什么样的，以及你学到了什么如何度过它？

Adam Grenier: So, the two biggest inputs for me in terms of really taking the time to understand my mental health, one is my wife, who's been a very strong proponent of mental health resources for everybody since I met her.

Adam Grenier：所以，对于我真正花时间了解我的心理健康而言，最大的两个投入是，一个是我的妻子，自从我遇见她以来，她一直是为每个人提供心理健康资源的坚定支持者。

And so just being able to learn from her and get exposure to, well, why is this important?

因此，能够向她学习并了解为什么这很重要？

What are the values of it?

它有哪些价值？

And seeing it pretty regularly of family members, or coworkers.

并且经常在家庭成员或同事中看到它。

Or it's like, oh man, I bet there's something deeper here that maybe is important for them to figure out.

或者就像，天哪，我打赌这里有一些更深层次的东西，也许对他们来说很重要。

Lenny: Is that just something she's good at, or is she trained in this stuff?

莱尼：这只是她擅长的事情，还是她受过这方面的训练？

Adam Grenier: No, she's good at it and she's in therapy and stuff like that.

Adam Grenier：不，她很擅长，并且正在接受治疗之类的事情。

She's one of the most empathetic, passionate people I've ever met in my life.

她是我一生中遇到过的最有同理心、最热情的人之一。

And so she just feels like poor people so much that I think it's something really important to her.

所以她觉得自己是穷人，我认为这对她来说非常重要。

And then at Uber, I got to a spot where I was incredibly exhausted and tired and just down, not excited about work and things like that, and so I started going to therapy and with this assumption that I was just working too hard.

然后在优步，我感到非常疲惫和疲惫，情绪低落，对工作和类似的事情不感兴趣，所以我开始接受治疗，并假设我只是工作太努力了。

Adam Grenier: That was kind of my like, "Man, I need to go to therapy to figure out the tools that I need to deal with me working too hard." And I just uncovered so many interesting things that I wouldn't have expected.

Adam Grenier：这有点像我，“伙计，我需要去接受治疗，找出我需要的工具来应对我工作过度的问题。”我刚刚发现了很多我意想不到的有趣的事情。

So, one was that I'm the youngest child in my family and I did something pretty different than a lot of my relatives and things like that.

所以，其中之一是，我是家里最小的孩子，我做了一些与我的许多亲戚截然不同的事情以及类似的事情。

So, recognition is something I long for, and it turns out I get that at work and I just hadn't gotten that in other parts of my life.

所以，认可是我渴望的东西，事实证明我在工作中得到了这种认可，而我在生活的其他方面却没有得到这种认可。

And so this thing that I'm like, "This is my problem," was actually a solution to my real problem.

所以我说的“这是我的问题”实际上是我真正问题的解决方案。

Adam Grenier: And knowing that just helped me totally just change my perspective of how hard I work.

Adam Grenier：知道这一点完全帮助我改变了我对工作努力程度的看法。

I was getting judgemental about myself around, "Man, I'm working too hard.

我开始对自己进行评判，“伙计，我工作太努力了。

I shouldn't be doing this, but I have to." And then I got in the spot where I'm like, "Oh, I'm working hard because I love it, because I like it, I'm having an impact and I'm working with people I like and people respect the work that I do." And that helped me identify that I can work just as hard, but I can work smarter.

我不应该这样做，但我必须这样做。”然后我就想，“哦，我正在努力工作，因为我喜欢它，因为我喜欢它，我有影响力，我正在和我喜欢的人一起工作，人们尊重我所做的工作。”这帮助我认识到我可以同样努力工作，但我可以更聪明地工作。

I can work more on the things I have impact on.

我可以更多地致力于那些对我有影响的事情。

Adam Grenier: I can work more with people that actually respected the type of work that I'm doing.

Adam Grenier：我可以更多地与真正尊重我所做工作类型的人一起工作。

And that actually just started to relax me and get me to the spot of, "Oh, okay," I still some burnout in there, and that's part of the innovation.

这实际上让我开始放松，让我意识到，“哦，好吧，”我仍然有些倦怠，这就是创新的一部分。

Part of my title was that I got to a spot where I'm like, I was traveling constantly, I had teams all over the world and the structure of Uber was working where every city had a GM and I was the person they called when their spend was too high.

我的头衔的一部分是，我到达了一个这样的境地：我经常出差，我的团队遍布世界各地，而 Uber 的结构正在运作，每个城市都有一位总经理，当他们的支出过高时，他们会打电话给我。

And so 500 GMs-

还有 500 名 GM——

Adam Grenier: Yeah, exactly.

亚当·格雷尼尔：是的，完全正确。

And so I was working in a world where I was dealing with a lot of politics.

所以我工作的世界里我要处理很多政治问题。

I love mentoring people, and I had this massive team of 150 people that I barely know any of them.

我喜欢指导别人，我的团队有 150 人，但我几乎不认识他们中的任何人。

And so I'm not mentoring people either anymore.

所以我也不再指导别人了。

And I just felt like I'm working so hard on things that I actually don't enjoy.

我只是觉得我在做一些我实际上不喜欢的事情上如此努力。

And so I'm like, I'm going to go work on flying cars, which is a whole other podcast too.

所以我想，我要去研究飞行汽车，这也是一个完全不同的播客。

So, that was my, okay, there was burnout in there.

所以，这就是我的，好吧，那里有倦怠。

Adam Grenier: I know that was a fact, but some of those feelings or things that I felt my entire life that I uncovered that I thought was just burnt out, I was like, "Oh, actually at this point in my life, this point in my life and this point in my life, I felt this way too.

Adam Grenier：我知道这是事实，但是我一生中发现的一些感觉或事情我认为已经耗尽了，我就像，“哦，实际上在我生命中的这一点，我生命中的这一点和我生命中的这一点，我也有这种感觉。

And at those points I wasn't burnt out.

在那些时候我并没有精疲力尽。

And so I actually have deeper work to do here and deeper understanding of myself so that I can actually maximize my life and enjoy it." And because I'm going to keep working to some degree this hard.

所以我实际上在这里有更深入的工作要做，对自己有更深入的了解，这样我才能真正最大化我的生活并享受它。”因为我将在某种程度上继续努力工作。

And I want to just make the most of that.

我想充分利用这一点。

Lenny: I don't know if you mentioned this, but I imagine parts of those points were depression, not burnout.

莱尼：我不知道你是否提到过这一点，但我想这些要点的一部分是抑郁，而不是倦怠。

What have you found to be that line of just like, "Oh wow, this is a lot more serious than I'm just working way too hard?"

你发现了什么就像“哦哇，这比我工作太努力要严重得多？”

Adam Grenier: For me, it's hard to describe, but I personally now can pretty cleanly tell the difference between exhaustion and depression.

Adam Grenier：对我来说，这很难描述，但我个人现在可以很清楚地分辨出疲惫和抑郁之间的区别。

And it tends to tie to my broader motivations, not just my motivation to work.

它往往与我更广泛的动机有关，而不仅仅是我的工作动机。

So, when I'm exhausted, I'll still show up to work, I'll still execute, I'll still do those types of things, but I'm going to go and if I can take an improv class, it's going to be a blast.

所以，当我精疲力竭时，我仍然会去工作，我仍然会执行，我仍然会做那些类型的事情，但我要去，如果我可以参加即兴课程，那将是一场爆炸。

I'm going to enjoy it and I'm going to love it.

我会享受它，我会爱上它。

If I'm depressed, I won't go to that improv class.

如果我很沮丧，我就不会去参加即兴表演课。

I'll just cancel it.

我就直接取消吧

I won't go to it.

我不会去的。

Or if I go to it, I'll go home immediately.

或者如果我去了，我会立即回家。

One of the things I love about actual improv classes, is the community.

我喜欢实际即兴课程的原因之一就是社区。

Is, "Hey, let's all go grab a drink now." And this is a totally different group of people.

是，“嘿，我们现在去喝一杯吧。”这是一群完全不同的人。

It's not my family, it's not my work people, it's just me.

这不是我的家人，不是我的同事，这只是我。

Adam Grenier: And I wouldn't do that.

Adam Grenier：我不会那样做。

And so it's kind of noticing where else is this impacting and to what degree and why, can help me understand what's going on in my life.

因此，注意到这种影响还有哪些地方、影响程度如何以及原因，可以帮助我了解我的生活中正在发生什么。

Because more often than not, I can then take those feelings and it'll be like, "Oh, I've felt this way for three weeks now.

因为通常情况下，我可以接受这些感觉，然后会说，“哦，我这样的感觉已经三个星期了。

I should think about this and dissect it a little bit." And so again, I'll spend time with my therapist.

我应该考虑一下并仔细剖析一下。”再说一遍，我会花时间和我的治疗师在一起。

One of the tools that my therapist has given me is to open up with my friends and have these conversations with my friends.

我的治疗师给我的工具之一就是与我的朋友敞开心扉，并与我的朋友进行这些对话。

And so now I went from five, six years ago really just having my therapist or my wife to talk about this kind of stuff to, I don't know, I have five or six different friends that we're massively transparent with each other about this stuff, because the second I shared any of this with them, they shared it with me.

所以现在我从五六年前开始只是让我的治疗师或我的妻子谈论这类事情，我不知道，我有五六个不同的朋友，我们在这些事情上彼此之间非常透明，因为当我与他们分享任何这些内容时，他们也与我分享了。

Adam Grenier: And now we've become safe places to have those conversations where I can be like, "Hey, there's this thing going on." My dad has ALS and so he's been really sick and I've got three kids and I've got jobs and work and money and the market crash.

Adam Grenier：现在我们已经成为进行这些对话的安全场所，我可以说，“嘿，有这样的事情正在发生。”我爸爸患有肌萎缩侧索硬化症，所以他病得很重，而我有三个孩子，我有工作、工作、金钱和市场崩溃。

And there's so many different things.

还有很多不同的事情。

It's like, okay, let me actually figure out which one of these things is causing this energy right now.

就像，好吧，让我真正弄清楚现在是哪一个因素造成了这种能量。

And having many years of therapy now and those resources can help me get to that solution to get to that answer so that I can figure out, okay, what do I need to do right now?

现在经过多年的治疗和这些资源可以帮助我找到解决方案，找到答案，这样我就可以弄清楚，好吧，我现在需要做什么？

Do I need to actually take time for myself and dig deeper into these personal things?

我是否需要真正为自己花时间并更深入地研究这些个人事情？

Do I actually need to change something with the shape of my career?

我真的需要根据我的职业生涯做出一些改变吗？

Those types of things.

那些类型的事情。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

And it sounds like the things that have been most helpful, and I'm curious what else you'd recommend to folks that are maybe feeling some of this.

这听起来像是最有帮助的事情，我很好奇你还会向那些可能有这种感觉的人推荐什么。

So, it sounds like therapy is really powerful, your partner and being open to your partner, finding a group of friends where you could be transparent about these sorts of things.

所以，听起来治疗真的很强大，你的伴侣，对你的伴侣开放，找到一群你可以对这些事情保持透明的朋友。

Is there anything else you suggest folks look into?

您还有什么建议人们研究一下吗？

Adam Grenier: Yeah.

亚当·格雷尼尔：是的。

So, I think meditation's a good one.

所以，我认为冥想是一种很好的方式。

The startup people love to talk about meditation, and so you can find lots of ways to do that.

初创公司的人喜欢谈论冥想，所以你可以找到很多方法来做到这一点。

It's kind of evolved for me.

它对我来说是一种进化。

So, it's in that tweet thread and I can't remember it now.

所以，它就在那条推文中，我现在不记得了。

There was a meditation thing that was the first, it almost felt like Noom for me for meditation where it wasn't just-

首先有一个冥想的事情，对我来说，它几乎感觉就像是 Noom 的冥想，它不仅仅是——

Adam Grenier: Yeah, Waking Up where it's like I'm actually learning about meditation, not just learning how to meditate.

Adam Grenier：是的，醒来就好像我实际上正在学习冥想，而不仅仅是学习如何冥想。

And that's how my brain likes to do things.

这就是我的大脑喜欢做事的方式。

I'm a lifetime learner, I love digging into things.

我是一个终身学习者，我喜欢挖掘事物。

I learned breathing techniques and things like that, but going through that program of Waking Up was the first time I actually really appreciated when and how and where to do it.

我学习了呼吸技巧和类似的东西，但是通过“醒来”计划是我第一次真正真正意识到何时、如何以及在哪里进行它。

I'm still not a everyday meditate person.

我仍然不是一个每天冥想的人。

Adam Grenier: I now use, I'm an investor, so I'm biased, but Aura, A-U-R-A, which is a marketplace app.

Adam Grenier：我现在使用的是 Aura，A-U-R-A，我是一名投资者，所以我有偏见，这是一个市场应用程序。

It's some of the other meditation apps, but it's a marketplace, so it's actually coaches and stuff adding content.

这是其他一些冥想应用程序，但它是一个市场，所以它实际上是教练和添加内容的东西。

So, I use that now as needed, which I really enjoy.

所以，我现在根据需要使用它，我真的很喜欢。

The exercise and diet and those types of things definitely tie to it.

锻炼和饮食以及诸如此类的事情肯定与之相关。

It's like eating is a pretty clean signal for me, or snacking is a really clean signal, at least for me of like, okay, I'm snacking more than I should be, and eating healthy can both help me identify that I'm in those spots, but also just make me feel better.

就好像吃饭对我来说是一个非常干净的信号，或者吃零食是一个非常干净的信号，至少对我来说，好吧，我吃的零食比我应该吃的多，健康饮食既可以帮助我识别自己处于这些位置，也可以让我感觉更好。

Adam Grenier: One thing I would say is that the therapist that I found, I found through a service that we had at Uber, and I think I was surprised how much stuff is covered by companies in terms of the ability to find a therapist, pay for a therapist or other tools.

Adam Grenier：我要说的一件事是，我找到的治疗师是通过 Uber 提供的一项服务找到的，我想我很惊讶公司在寻找治疗师、支付治疗师费用或其他工具方面涵盖了多少内容。

And so that's one thing I would suggest, go look through your benefits.

所以这是我建议的一件事，看看你的福利。

Your healthcare provider offers a lot of that stuff too.

您的医疗保健提供者也提供很多这样的东西。

So, those are a handful of.

所以，这些只是少数。

Listen to Lenny's podcast?

听莱尼的播客吗？

Lenny: I hope that to be true.

莱尼：我希望这是真的。

I don't know if that's anywhere near as powerful as these other things.

我不知道这是否和其他东西一样强大。

One thing I'll mention is on the meditation front, there's this amazing book that kind of does exactly what you also describe where it teaches you why this works.

我要提到的一件事是在冥想方面，有一本令人惊奇的书，它的作用正是你所描述的，它教你为什么它有效。

It's called, it's kind of like a bad title, it's called Why Buddhism is True.

它被称为，有点像一个糟糕的标题，它被称为“为什么佛教是真实的”。

And it's not trying to convince you to be a Buddhist, but it has a lot of incredible insights on why meditation is so powerful and how to think about it.

它并不是试图说服你成为一名佛教徒，但它对冥想为何如此强大以及如何思考它有很多令人难以置信的见解。

So, I'll put that in the show notes too.

所以，我也会把它放在演出笔记中。

Lenny: I wanted to come back to the burnout piece.

莱尼：我想回到倦怠部分。

I imagine some folks are listening to this and they're like, "Am I burnt out?

我想有些人听到这个之后会想：“我累坏了吗？

I don't know." What are signs that you're burnt out versus just working a lot and tired?

我不知道。”哪些迹象表明您已经精疲力竭，而不是因为工作太多而感到疲倦？

Adam Grenier: The one that I see the most is adaptability goes down really fast.

Adam Grenier：我看到最多的是适应性下降得非常快。

And this is more me noticing I've managed a lot of people and coached a lot of people, so when I see that from people that I'm working with, I usually immediately bring up, I'm like, "Look, your openness to change in the business, or trying new things, or going back and trying things that maybe we tried before and didn't work has shifted from, 'Oh, here are the flags that we should be aware of, but let's give it a shot' to 'Why are we wasting our time?

这更多的是我注意到我管理过很多人并指导过很多人，所以当我从与我一起工作的人那里看到这些时，我通常会立即提出，我会想，“看，你对业务变革的开放态度，或者尝试新事物，或者回去尝试可能我们以前尝试过但没有成功的事情已经从‘哦，这里是我们应该意识到的标志，但让我们试一试’转变为‘为什么我们要这样做’”浪费我们的时间？

Let's not do this.'"

我们不要这样做。’”

Adam Grenier: This energy around, let's just do the thing we're supposed to do.

Adam Grenier：有这种能量，让我们做我们应该做的事情。

And I think that's maybe specifically applicable to our environment, to high growth and marketing and product where it's just, that's just a key ingredient to doing this job well, is adaptability and flexibility and exploration.

我认为这可能特别适用于我们的环境、高增长、营销和产品，而这正是做好这项工作的关键因素，那就是适应性、灵活性和探索性。

And if you're losing that, it's probably not because you've gotten bad at it, right?

如果你失去了这一点，那可能并不是因为你做得不好，对吧？

It's probably because you're just over it, right?

这可能是因为你刚刚结束了，对吧？

Where you're like, "I just don't want to deal with the BS around this.

你会说，“我只是不想和这件事上的废话打交道。

I want to go do the thing that makes my job easier."

我想做一些让我的工作更轻松的事情。”

Adam Grenier: Which again, most of the people that have chosen this career path want their jobs to be harder, because it's more fun, it's more interesting, it's more rewarding.

Adam Grenier：同样，大多数选择这条职业道路的人都希望他们的工作更难，因为它更有趣，更有趣，更有价值。

And so when you're looking for ways to minimize the challenge or the opportunity, I think that's a pretty good signal that they may be more burnt out than just exhaustion.

因此，当你正在寻找尽量减少挑战或机会的方法时，我认为这是一个很好的信号，表明他们可能比精疲力竭更疲惫。

Because if anything, I see the opposite for people that are exhausted, where they get re-motivated by new stuff, by opportunities to go do something different and that kind of stuff.

因为如果有的话，我认为对于那些筋疲力尽的人来说，情况恰恰相反，他们会被新事物、有机会去做不同的事情或类似的事情重新激励起来。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

Really good insight.

确实是很好的洞察力。

Second to last question, I know you have to run, where are you on this journey today and then just what's next for Adam Grenier?

倒数第二个问题，我知道你必须逃跑，今天你在哪里，然后亚当·格雷尼尔的下一步是什么？

Adam Grenier: Yeah, thank you.

亚当·格雷尼尔：是的，谢谢。

Good question.

好问题。

I'm constantly optimizing this matrix of what am I good at versus what do I love doing?

我不断优化这个矩阵，看看我擅长什么和我喜欢做什么？

And so what I've found is that I really love entrepreneurs and working really closely with entrepreneurs and helping them figure out all of these funky things that I've been able to see over the last 20 years and maneuver.

所以我发现我真的很喜欢企业家，并与企业家密切合作，帮助他们弄清楚我在过去 20 年中看到的所有这些时髦的事情并进行操作。

And I've worked at a lot of places and so I'm really good at context changing and helping connect the dots for people.

我在很多地方工作过，所以我非常擅长改变环境并帮助人们连接点。

Adam Grenier: And so a couple ways I've found to be able to do that is advising companies, so working with founders and growth leaders and things like that and investing.

Adam Grenier：我发现有几种方法可以做到这一点，那就是为公司提供咨询，与创始人和增长领导者合作以及类似的事情和投资。

And so I'm actually right now, I've been investing now for six, seven years.

所以我现在实际上已经投资了六、七年了。

I've recently joined Andreessen's Scout fund, so I'm doing a bit more volume now.

我最近加入了 Andreessen 的 Scout 基金，所以我现在的交易量增加了一些。

But I would say if I had to make a bet right now, I think a full-time or closer to full-time investing world is what I'd like to lean more towards.

但我想说，如果我现在必须下注，我认为我更倾向于全职或接近全职的投资世界。

But I'm very much a let's just open up opportunities, and once the right one is in front of me, I'm going to tackle it.

但我非常愿意开放机会，一旦合适的机会出现在我面前，我就会去解决它。

Adam Grenier: And so who knows, I may go back full time somewhere or whatnot.

Adam Grenier：所以谁知道呢，我可能会回到某个地方全职工作或者诸如此类。

But right now the advising, investing, coaching kind of hybrid is the term, I think it was Behzod at Reforge used, was me as a service is my current world.

但现在，建议、投资、指导这种混合体是一个术语，我认为这是 Reforge 的 Behzod 使用的，是我作为一种服务，就是我当前的世界。

But I'd be shocked if I eventually don't gravitate towards some kind of foundation, because I thrive when I've got a little bit of an anchor.

但如果我最终没有被某种基础所吸引，我会感到震惊，因为当我有了一点锚点时，我就会蓬勃发展。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

A mass, me as a service.

群众，我作为服务。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

For folks that may want to reach out to you about taking your money in their startup, or asking whatever questions, maybe advising questions, where can folks reach you and learn more?

对于那些可能想与您联系以获取您的资金用于他们的初创公司的人，或者询问任何问题，也许是建议问题，人们可以在哪里联系您并了解更多信息？

Adam Grenier: Just Twitter, AKGrenier and LinkedIn as well, it's AKGrier.

Adam Grenier：只有 Twitter、AKGrenier 和 LinkedIn，就是 AKGrier。

So, look me up, connect.

所以，找我，联系。

I'm always open to connecting and chatting with people and I just love digging into problems.

我总是乐于与人联系和聊天，而且我喜欢挖掘问题。

So, happy to abide.

所以，高兴地坚持下去。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Adam, this was such an action packed chat, so many levels and layers.

亚当，这是一次充满动感的聊天，有很多层次。

I can't wait for folks to listen to this.

我迫不及待地想让人们听到这个。

Thank you so much for joining me and being here.

非常感谢您加入我并来到这里。

Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcast、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。