How to build a high-performing growth team | Adam Fishman (Patreon, Lyft, Imperfect Foods)

Adam Fishman: Onboarding is the only part of your product experience that a hundred percent of people are ever going to touch.

Adam Fishman：入职培训是产品体验中 100% 的人都会接触到的唯一部分。

Good luck getting a hundred percent feature adoption of anything else in your product, right?

祝你好运，产品中其他任何功能的采用率都达到 100%，对吗？

But onboarding is the thing that you have to go through in order to use the product.

但入职培训是您使用该产品必须经历的事情。

It's also the first opportunity that you have as a company to deliver on the promise that you made out in the marketplace.

这也是您作为一家公司兑现您在市场上做出的承诺的第一次机会。

So I like to think of your brand is the promise that you're making and your product experience is your delivery of that promise.

所以我喜欢认为你的品牌是你做出的承诺，你的产品体验是你兑现这一承诺。

And those two things have to be in lockstep with each other, or you're going to have mismatched expectations and some really disappointed customers.

这两件事必须步调一致，否则您的期望将会不匹配，并且会让一些客户感到非常失望。

So this is the first chance that a customer has to be really excited or really disappointed in what they thought they were getting.

因此，这是客户第一次对他们认为得到的东西感到非常兴奋或非常失望。

So don't mess that up.

所以别搞砸了。

Lenny: Adam Fishman was the first growth and marketing hire at Lyft where he spent two and a half years leading their growth efforts.

Lenny：Adam Fishman 是 Lyft 第一位增长和营销人员，他花了两年半的时间领导他们的增长工作。

Then he went on to lead product and growth at Patreon, where he spent over four years building one of the most successful and lasting created platforms out there.

然后，他继续领导 Patreon 的产品和增长，他花了四年多的时间打造了最成功、最持久的平台之一。

And most recently, he was CPO at Imperfect Foods.

最近，他担任 Imperfect Foods 的首席产品官。

Today he spends his time advising companies on product and growth, and he's also doing a lot more writing.

如今，他把时间花在为公司提供产品和增长方面的建议，并且还从事更多写作工作。

Lenny: And in this episode we cover three things, his growth competency model, which helps you hire and evaluate growth talent and also get a job as a growth person.

莱尼：在这一集中，我们将介绍三件事，即他的成长能力模型，该模型可以帮助您雇用和评估成长型人才，并获得成长型人才的工作。

We go deep into why onboarding is such an underappreciated growth lever and all of the impact that you can have optimizing your onboarding flow.

我们深入探讨了为什么入职是一个如此被低估的增长杠杆，以及优化入职流程可以产生的所有影响。

Adam also shares a super cool framework for choosing which company to work at.

Adam 还分享了一个超酷的框架来选择在哪家公司工作。

Adam is hilarious and he's so full of wisdom and I can't wait for you to hear this episode.

亚当很搞笑，他充满智慧，我迫不及待地想让你听到这一集。

With that, I bring you Adam Fishman.

接下来，我为您带来亚当·菲什曼 (Adam Fishman)。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Coda.

莱尼：这一集是由 Coda 为您带来的。

Coda's an all-in one doc that combines the best of documents, spreadsheets, and apps in one place.

Coda 是一款一体化文档，将文档、电子表格和应用程序的最佳功能整合到一个地方。

I actually use Coda every single day.

事实上我每天都使用 Coda。

It's my home base for organizing my newsletter writing, it's where I plan my content calendar, capture my research, and write the first drafts of each and every post.

这是我组织时事通讯写作的大本营，在这里我计划我的内容日历，记录我的研究，并撰写每一篇文章的初稿。

It's also where I curate my private knowledge repository for paid newsletter subscribers, and it's also how I manage the workflow for this very podcast.

这也是我为付费时事通讯订阅者策划私人知识库的地方，也是我管理这个播客工作流程的方式。

Lenny: Over the years, I've seen Coda evolve from being a tool that makes teams more productive to one that also helps bring the best practices across the tech industry to life with an incredibly rich collection of templates and guides in the Coda Doc Gallery, including resources from many guests on this podcast, including Shreyas, GoCool, and Shishir, the CEO of Coda.

Lenny：多年来，我看到 Coda 从一种提高团队工作效率的工具发展成为一种通过 Coda Doc Gallery 中极其丰富的模板和指南，帮助将整个科技行业的最佳实践变为现实的工具，其中包括来自该播客的许多嘉宾的资源，包括 Shreyas、GoCool 和 Coda 首席执行官 Shishir。

Lenny: Some of the best teams out there like Pinterest, Spotify, Square and Uber, use Coda to run effectively and have published their templates for anyone to use.

Lenny：Pinterest、Spotify、Square 和 Uber 等一些最好的团队使用 Coda 来有效运行，并发布了他们的模板供任何人使用。

If you're ping ponging between lots of documents and spreadsheets, make your life better and start using Coda, You can take advantage of a special limited time offer just for startups.

如果您正在处理大量文档和电子表格，让您的生活更美好并开始使用 Coda，您可以利用专为初创公司提供的特殊限时优惠。

Head over to coda.io/lenny to sign up and get a thousand dollar credit on your first statement.

前往 coda.io/lenny 进行注册，并在您的第一份账单上获得 1000 美元的积分。

That's C-O-D-A.I-O/lenny to sign up and get a thousand dollars in credit on your account.

这就是 C-O-D-A.I-O/lenny 注册并在您的帐户上获得一千美元的信用。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Linear.

Lenny：这一集是由 Linear 为您带来的。

Let's be honest, the issue tracker that you're using today isn't very helpful.

老实说，您今天使用的问题跟踪器并不是很有帮助。

Why is it that it always seems to be working against you instead of working for you?

为什么它似乎总是对你不利而不是对你有利？

Why does it feel like such a chore to use?

为什么使用起来感觉这么麻烦？

Well, Linear is different.

那么，线性则不同。

It's incredibly fast, beautifully designed, and it comes with powerful workflows that streamline your entire product development process from issue tracking all the way to managing product roadmaps.

它的速度令人难以置信，设计精美，并且具有强大的工作流程，可以简化从问题跟踪一直到管理产品路线图的整个产品开发流程。

Linear is designed for the way modern software teams work.

Linear 专为现代软件团队的工作方式而设计。

What users love about Linear are the powerful keyboard shortcuts, efficient GitHub integrations, cycles that actually create progress, and built in project updates that keep everyone in sync.

用户喜欢 Linear 的原因是强大的键盘快捷键、高效的 GitHub 集成、真正创造进步的循环，以及让每个人保持同步的内置项目更新。

In short, it just works.

简而言之，它就是有效的。

Linear is the default tool of choice among startups, and it powers a wide range of large established companies such as Versal, Retool, and Cash App.

Linear 是初创公司选择的默认工具，它为 Versal、Retool 和 Cash App 等众多大型老牌公司提供支持。

See for yourself by product teams describe using Linear as magical.

亲眼看看产品团队描述使用 Linear 是多么神奇。

Visit linear.app/lenny to try Linear for free with your team and get 25% off when you upgrade.

访问 Linear.app/lenny 与您的团队一起免费试用 Linear，并在升级时享受 25% 的折扣。

That's linear.app/lenny.

那是 Linear.app/lenny。

Lenny: Adam Fishman, welcome to the podcast.

莱尼：亚当·菲什曼，欢迎来到播客。

Adam Fishman: Thanks for having me, Lenny.

Adam Fishman：谢谢你邀请我，莱尼。

Super excited to be here.

来到这里超级兴奋。

It's a pleasure to be on chatting with you today.

很高兴今天能和你聊天。

Lenny: It's even more my pleasure.

莱尼：这更是我的荣幸。

Thank you for being here.

感谢您来到这里。

To set a little context for listeners that don't know too much about you yet, can you spend 45 seconds giving us a little overview of all of the wonderful things that you've done in your career?

为了向还不太了解您的听众提供一些背景信息，您能否花 45 秒向我们简要介绍一下您在职业生涯中所做的所有精彩事情？

Adam Fishman: Sure.

亚当·菲什曼：当然。

I'm setting my timer for 45 seconds.

我将计时器设置为 45 秒。

Adam Fishman: So I've been the Chief Product Officer and VP of Growth and Product at a bunch of different companies Imperfect Foods, Patreon, Lyft, the precursor to Lyft which was Zimride to name a few.

Adam Fishman：我曾在一些不同的公司担任首席产品官以及增长和产品副总裁，例如 Imperfect Foods、Patreon、Lyft，以及 Lyft 的前身 Zimride 等。

Now, I do three things primarily, I'm an EIR at Reforge and a program partner, which means I create courses.

现在，我主要做三件事，我是 Reforge 的 EIR 和项目合作伙伴，这意味着我创建课程。

I run an advisory practice on growth and product strategy, which keeps me pretty busy, and then I recently started a newsletter which was pretty much inspired by your work in this area over the last several years.

我从事增长和产品策略方面的咨询业务，这让我非常忙碌，然后我最近开始撰写时事通讯，该通讯很大程度上受到了您过去几年在该领域的工作的启发。

Those are the three pillars of my life these days, my professional life at least.

这些是我现在生活的三大支柱，至少是我职业生涯的三大支柱。

Lenny: Nailed it.

莱尼：成功了。

Wow, that was very contained and clear.

哇，这非常包含和清晰。

Let's plug the newsletter real quick.

让我们快速插入时事通讯。

What's the URL?

网址是什么？

Is it fishmanafnewsletter.com?

是 Fishmanafnewsletter.com 吗？

Adam Fishman: It is fishmanafnewsletter.com.

Adam Fishman：这是fishmanafnewsletter.com。

I am blessed with great initials that allow me to have that name for a newsletter.

我很幸运拥有很棒的名字首字母，这让我可以用这个名字来命名时事通讯。

Lenny: It's not obvious.

莱尼：这并不明显。

Adam Fishman AF.

亚当·菲什曼 AF.

There you go.

就这样吧。

That's the acronym.

这就是缩写。

And then in terms of the advising, just to set this expectation, are you looking for more clients or are you capped out?

然后就建议而言，为了设定这个期望，您是在寻找更多客户还是已经超出了上限？

How should people think about that as they listen?

人们在聆听时应该如何思考？

Adam Fishman: Well, I'm pretty busy, but it is a bit of a revolving door, so there's always some pipeline.

Adam Fishman：嗯，我很忙，但这有点像旋转门，所以总有一些管道。

So even if I can't work with folks right now, sometimes it makes sense for me to work with them a few months down the road.

因此，即使我现在无法与人们合作，有时几个月后与他们合作对我来说也是有意义的。

So always open to new interest and learning about new companies.

因此，要始终对新的兴趣保持开放的态度，并了解新公司。

Lenny: All right, great.

莱尼：好的，太好了。

We'll share how to contact you at the end of this and it will be in the show notes.

我们将在本文结束时分享如何联系您，并将在演出备注中提供。

Lenny: One question I wanted to ask off the bat is, Lyft, you were there super early.

莱尼：我想马上问的一个问题是，Lyft，你到得超级早。

I imagine it was an incredibly wild ride.

我想这是一次令人难以置信的狂野之旅。

I'm curious, what's the most tangible memory you have of your time at Lyft?

我很好奇，您在 Lyft 的经历中最深刻的记忆是什么？

Adam Fishman: I have a ton of memories from the almost three years that I was there, but I think the biggest one, and probably the most tactile or memorable thing was when we launched Lyft, when we were bringing it out of private beta, we had this press event at the office, which is in Soma, and it had these doors, these big huge garage style doors.

Adam Fishman：我在那儿的近三年里有很多回忆，但我认为最大的，可能也是最有触觉或最难忘的事情是当我们推出 Lyft 时，当我们将其推出私人测试版时，我们在索马的办公室举行了新闻发布会，它有这些门，这些巨大的车库风格的门。

And so we opened them up and we actually drove a car into the office with a pink mustache on the front of it, and then a bunch of drivers piled out of it and met the press members and were high fiving people and stuff like that.

所以我们打开了它们，我们实际上开着一辆前面留着粉红色小胡子的汽车进入办公室，然后一群司机从车里涌出来，与媒体成员会面，并与人们击掌之类的。

And then we also served a giant pink mustache cake at this event.

然后我们还在这次活动中提供了一个巨大的粉红色胡子蛋糕。

So of all of the things there, that one sticks in my head the most.

因此，在所有事情中，最让我印象深刻的是这一件事。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

I hope there was no hair in this mustache cake.

我希望这个小胡子蛋糕里没有头发。

Adam Fishman: No, no, there was not.

亚当·菲什曼：不，不，没有。

It was delicious.

很美味。

Lenny: Okay, awesome.

莱尼：好的，太棒了。

Another question I always have for folks that worked at Lyft or at Uber is how they feel about Super Pumped and what it is like watching that, if you've seen it, what it's like watching the story of Uber and especially working for Lyft.

我一直想问在 Lyft 或 Uber 工作过的人的另一个问题是，他们对 Super Pumped 有何感想，以及观看它的感觉如何（如果你看过的话）、观看 Uber 的故事，尤其是在 Lyft 工作的感觉如何。

Adam Fishman: Yeah, I have seen it.

Adam Fishman：是的，我已经看到了。

I actually read the book first.

我其实是先读过这本书的。

I've been a pretty big fan of Mike Isaac, who's the New York Times reporter who wrote it.

我一直是迈克·艾萨克（Mike Isaac）的忠实粉丝，他是《纽约时报》的记者，也是这篇文章的作者。

So I've been a big fan of his reporting for a long time.

所以很长一段时间以来我一直是他的报道的忠实粉丝。

I connected with him a bit while he was writing the book, and I would say, there were parts of it that were painful.

当他写这本书的时候，我和他有过一些接触，我想说，其中的某些部分是痛苦的。

It was like renavigating, relitigating a history that I had lived through already.

这就像重新审视、重新审视我已经经历过的历史。

And so much of that story was stuff that I had experienced pretty regularly while I was at Lyft battling against Uber.

这个故事的大部分内容都是我在 Lyft 与 Uber 对抗时经常经历的事情。

Adam Fishman: So one part of me was like, "I remember that.

亚当·菲什曼：所以我的一部分就像是，“我记得这一点。

God, that was hard." Another part of me was happy to see that all of the things were out in the open finally, things that were hard to talk about about competitive practices and stuff like that and just shady things.

天哪，这太难了。”我的另一部分很高兴看到所有的事情最终都公开了，那些很难谈论的竞争实践之类的事情以及只是阴暗的事情。

And some part of me was happy that it was out there.

我内心的某些部分很高兴它就在那里。

And then one other thing separately, so I actually was interviewing with Joseph Gordon-Levitt to be an advisor with his company HitRecord while he was filming Super Bumped.

然后还有另外一件事，所以我实际上是在采访约瑟夫·戈登-莱维特，让他在他的公司 HitRecord 拍摄《Super Bumped》时担任顾问。

Adam Fishman: And we had this conversation over Zoom when he was on break in between scenes of filming the show.

Adam Fishman：当他在拍摄节目的场景之间休息时，我们通过 Zoom 进行了这次对话。

And for those who don't know, he's the guy that plays Travis Kalanick, the CEO and founder of Uber.

对于那些不知道的人来说，他就是扮演 Uber 首席执行官兼创始人特拉维斯·卡兰尼克 (Travis Kalanick) 的人。

So he did this interview with me and he was in his trailer on set, fully decked out as TK in his look with his hair slicked back.

所以他接受了我的采访，当时他在片场的拖车里，一身 TK 打扮，头发向后梳得光溜溜的。

And it was really funny and also cool to see him in this context.

在这种情况下看到他真的很有趣也很酷。

And he is probably the polar opposite from Travis Kalanick.

他可能与特拉维斯·卡兰尼克截然相反。

Obviously they're both super successful, but JGL is a really down to earth, nice, very family-oriented calm guy.

显然他们都非常成功，但 JGL 是一个非常脚踏实地、友善、非常注重家庭的冷静的人。

So anyways, this is a funny story of my time meeting and interviewing with him.

无论如何，这是我与他会面和采访的有趣故事。

Lenny: That is amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Did you slip in a couple Lyft facts to help Lyft look a little happier and better?

您是否加入了一些 Lyft 事实来帮助 Lyft 看起来更快乐、更好？

Adam Fishman: I did.

亚当·菲什曼：我做到了。

We talked a bit about that journey and I asked him some questions about how he prepared for the role and stuff like that.

我们聊了一些关于那段旅程的事情，我问了他一些关于他如何准备这个角色之类的问题。

And so yeah, it was pretty fun.

是的，这非常有趣。

We swapped some stories and stuff.

我们交换了一些故事和东西。

So yeah, it was neat.

所以是的，它很整洁。

Lenny: Fun fact, my mom wanted me to dress like Joseph Gordon-Levitt and I was like, "I should look like this guy.

莱尼：有趣的是，我妈妈希望我穿得像约瑟夫·高登-莱维特，我当时想，“我应该看起来像这个人。

Wear some vests.

穿一些背心。

This guy's looking good.

这家伙看起来不错。

Looks like you a little bit."

看起来有一点像你。”

Adam Fishman: I see that.

亚当·菲什曼：我明白了。

I do see that.

我确实看到了这一点。

That's awesome.

太棒了。

Way to go, mom.

一路走好，妈妈。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Then I'll follow her advice.

那我就听从她的建议。

Maybe I should have.

也许我应该这么做。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Okay.

好的。

So transitioning to the meat of our chat, there's three things I wanted to spend our time chatting about.

因此，过渡到我们聊天的重点，我想花时间讨论三件事。

One is your growth competency model, which essentially is this post you wrote recently that tells founders how to hire and how to evaluate growth people.

一是你的成长能力模型，本质上就是你最近写的这篇文章，告诉创始人如何雇用以及如何评估成长型人才。

Two, I want to chat about onboarding flows.

第二，我想谈谈入职流程。

You have a lot of really interesting experience optimizing onboarding flows and the impact that's had.

您在优化入职流程及其所产生的影响方面拥有很多非常有趣的经验。

And then three is how to choose a company to work out.

三是如何选择公司进行锻炼。

You've chosen a lot of really interesting companies and you have some cool insights around how to think about that.

你选择了很多非常有趣的公司，并且你对如何思考这一点有一些很酷的见解。

Does that sound good?

听起来不错吗？

Adam Fishman: Yeah, it sounds great.

Adam Fishman：是的，听起来很棒。

I've also chosen some bad companies in my time too, so we can talk about the good, the bad and the ugly.

我也曾选择过一些不好的公司，所以我们可以谈论好的、坏的和丑陋的。

Lenny: Okay, excited to hear about that.

莱尼：好的，很高兴听到这个消息。

So first we talked about this briefly.

首先我们简要地讨论了这一点。

You've started to do a lot more writing.

你已经开始做更多的写作。

You have this newsletter at fishmanafnewsletter.com, and you recently wrote this really epic piece called the Growth Competency Model, which essentially lays out what to look for in a growth leader, how to hire, how to evaluate, what to concentrate skills on?

您在 Fishmanafnewsletter.com 上收到了这份时事通讯，您最近写了一篇真正史诗般的文章，称为“增长能力模型”，该模型本质上列出了在增长领导者中寻找什么，如何雇用，如何评估，将技能集中在什么方面？

Things like that.

诸如此类的事情。

First question, just what made you feel like you had to write this?

第一个问题，是什么让你觉得你必须写这篇文章？

What mistakes have you found founders make when hiring and evaluating growth leaders?

您发现创始人在招聘和评估成长型领导者时犯了哪些错误？

Adam Fishman: Yeah, so first I'm going to put up my new background here, which is my growth competency model background.

Adam Fishman：是的，所以首先我要在这里展示我的新背景，这是我的成长能力模型背景。

For those watching on YouTube, I have a funny graphic in the background for this.

对于那些在 YouTube 上观看的人，我在背景中设置了一个有趣的图形。

So I guess the reason that I wrote this, there were a few reasons that I wrote it.

所以我想我写这篇文章的原因有几个。

One is it really felt necessary to write it.

一是真的觉得有必要写它。

And at first it's, I don't think I've ever come across this type of canonical reference before around how to hire and plan for growth.

首先，我认为我以前从未遇到过这种关于如何招聘和规划增长的规范参考。

So that's number one.

所以这是第一。

I didn't think it existed.

我不认为它存在。

It needed to exist.

它需要存在。

Adam Fishman: Two, as an advisor and someone who has held the head of growth role many times, I get asked this question a lot.

Adam Fishman：第二，作为顾问和多次担任增长主管的人，我经常被问到这个问题。

I get asked all the time about how do you hire growth people?

我总是被问到如何雇佣成长型人才？

And it's usually something like, "Hey, how do we find you but 10 years earlier in your career?" And it feels like that question is missing the first principles approach to hiring a growth person.

通常是这样的：“嘿，除了你职业生涯早 10 年前，我们怎么才能找到你呢？”感觉这个问题缺少雇用成长型人才的首要原则。

And if you're doing that, you're just pattern matching to me.

如果你这样做，你只是在与我进行模式匹配。

And I may not be the best person, right, or somebody who looks like me may not be the best person.

我可能不是最好的人，对吧，或者看起来像我的人可能不是最好的人。

So I think we're missing that.

所以我认为我们错过了这一点。

Adam Fishman: And then third, one of the programs that I'm currently creating is around growth leadership.

Adam Fishman：第三，我目前正在创建的项目之一是围绕增长领导力。

And so I've been thinking a lot about what it takes to be an exceptional growth leader, how you hire other people onto your team and create balanced teams.

因此，我一直在思考如何才能成为一名出色的增长领导者，如何雇佣其他人加入你的团队并创建平衡的团队。

And this is going to be a really important component of that program.

这将是该计划的一个非常重要的组成部分。

So it was just really top of mind.

所以这真的是最重要的。

So yeah, that's why I wrote it.

是的，这就是我写它的原因。

Lenny: Let me ask one quick question and I think you were about to start answering one mistakes founders make, but I guess it's less of a question.

莱尼：让我问一个简单的问题，我想你即将开始回答创始人所犯的一个错误，但我想这不是一个问题。

I know this was built on another model for product management, which is really awesome.

我知道这是建立在另一种产品管理模型之上的，这真的很棒。

And I love that there's this growing fountain of career ladders, competencies per function.

我喜欢这种不断增长的职业阶梯、每个职能的能力源泉。

And so I don't know if there's been one that's really great for design and engineering, but I love that this is happening.

所以我不知道是否有一个真正适合设计和工程的东西，但我喜欢这种情况的发生。

And so first of all, I just want to say I appreciate that you put in the time to think this through.

首先，我想说，我很感谢您花时间思考这个问题。

Adam Fishman: Cool.

亚当·菲什曼：酷。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Yeah, and I do think we need more of these.

是的，我确实认为我们需要更多这样的东西。

I think we need one for marketers, I think we need one for engineers, designers, research probably, there's probably a bunch of functions that could benefit from some canonicalized resource around this stuff.

我认为我们需要为营销人员提供一个，我认为我们需要为工程师、设计师、研究人员提供一个，可能有很多功能可以从围绕这些东西的一些规范化资源中受益。

So yeah, some myths and mistakes that I think founders made and that I've made.

是的，我认为创始人犯过一些神话和错误，我也犯过这些错误。

I've definitely lived through some mistakes.

我确实经历过一些错误。

A few experiences where I was hired into a company where the founder had really messed up expectations of what a growth person should be doing, what I should be doing.

在我受雇于一家公司的经历中，创始人确实搞乱了对成长型人才应该做什么、我应该做什么的期望。

And I wanted to set the record straight for founders because they are the folks who hire for this and other leaders.

我想为创始人澄清事实，因为他们是为这位领导者和其他领导者招聘的人。

Adam Fishman: So one example that comes to mind is, I did a very brief stint at a company called Wyzant, in between Lyft and Patreon.

Adam Fishman：我想到的一个例子是，我在 Lyft 和 Patreon 之间的一家名为 Wyzant 的公司短暂工作过。

And the founders of that company, so Wyzant was a tutoring marketplace.

和那家公司的创始人一样，Wyzant 是一个辅导市场。

It was acquired by a company not too long ago, so it's now part of a bigger learning company.

它不久前被一家公司收购，所以现在它是一家更大的学习公司的一部分。

And the founders of that company we're looking for what I would call a silver bullet strategy to their growth challenges.

对于该公司的创始人，我们正在寻找一种我称之为灵丹妙药的策略来应对他们的增长挑战。

And what they really needed, and I was naive and didn't think about asking these questions or about evaluating this properly, what they really needed was to create a strategy to add on new growth loops and a system for how to execute against that strategy.

他们真正需要的是，我很天真，没有考虑提出这些问题或正确评估这一点，他们真正需要的是创建一个策略来添加新的增长循环，以及一个如何执行该策略的系统。

Adam Fishman: If we had talked about that as part of evaluating each other, as part of them evaluating me, it would've given me a lot of confidence that it was the right hire to make.

Adam Fishman：如果我们将这一点作为评估彼此的一部分，作为他们评估我的一部分，这会给我很大的信心，让我相信这是正确的聘用。

But the problem was they didn't approach it that way.

但问题是他们并没有这样做。

They didn't ask me those questions and I was too naive to recognize that, "Hey, they're not actually evaluating this with the competencies that you would expect for a growth leader." Executing a growth strategy takes time and patience, and they didn't really have it.

他们没有问我这些问题，我太天真了，没有意识到，“嘿，他们实际上并没有用你所期望的增长领导者的能力来评估这一点。”执行增长战略需要时间和耐心，而他们确实没有。

And overall it ended rather unsuccessfully.

总的来说，它的结局相当不成功。

I helped them build this office in San Francisco, hired a bunch of folks, we actually closed down the office.

我帮助他们在旧金山建立了这个办公室，雇佣了一群人，我们实际上关闭了办公室。

I had to lay off a bunch of the people that I'd hired, including myself, which wasn't particularly fun.

我不得不解雇一些我雇佣的人，包括我自己，这并不是特别有趣。

And I think all of it comes back to that they didn't have a really strong set of criteria on what it meant to hire a great growth person.

我认为这一切都归咎于他们对于聘用优秀成长型人才的意义并没有一套真正严格的标准。

And so if I can help even just a little bit with founders making that decision better, it'll lead to fewer mismatches I think in the hiring process.

因此，如果我能帮助创始人做出更好的决定，即使是一点点，我认为也会减少招聘过程中的不匹配情况。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Let's get into it.

让我们开始吧。

What are the components of this model?

这个模型由哪些部分组成？

And you can put it back up again for folks to follow along in the background.

您可以将其重新放回原处，以便人们在后台跟随。

Adam Fishman: The whole thing looks like a big circle and there's four wedges in that circle, four equal parts.

Adam Fishman：整个东西看起来像一个大圆圈，圆圈中有四个楔子，四个相等的部分。

And I think that answer of what are the components, what should people look for, really, I'll give the PM answer, which is it depends.

我认为关于组件是什么、人们应该寻找什么的答案，实际上，我会给 PM 答案，这取决于情况。

And what does it depend on?

它取决于什么？

It depends on the state of the team and where the skill gaps are.

这取决于团队的状态以及技能差距在哪里。

So the goal of the competency model is not to find a unicorn human being that is an 11 out of 10 on every one of these things, because frankly, that person doesn't exist.

因此，能力模型的目标不是找到一个在所有这些方面都达到 10 分（满分 11 分）的独角兽人类，因为坦率地说，这个人并不存在。

I am not an 11 out of 10 on these skills and I have been a growth executive at many companies.

我在这些技能方面并不是十分之十，而且我曾在许多公司担任过成长主管。

I consider myself to be pretty good at the job.

我认为自己很擅长这项工作。

The goal is to create a well-rounded team so that you're hiring and balancing skills across your team and that you don't have any gaps in your portfolio.

我们的目标是创建一支全面发展的团队，以便您在团队中招聘和平衡技能，并且您的投资组合中不存在任何差距。

Adam Fishman: And so when you think about it, there are four main components to the growth competency model.

Adam Fishman：所以当你思考这个问题时，增长能力模型有四个主要组成部分。

And the four big components or buckets are growth execution, customer knowledge, growth strategy, and then the last one is communication and influence.

四大组成部分或类别是增长执行、客户知识、增长策略，最后一个是沟通和影响力。

And each of those has three really specific skills.

其中每一个都具有三项真正特定的技能。

And so to give an example, let's break down growth execution for example, which is one of the very first ones that you should be good at if you're a growth practitioner.

举个例子，让我们分解一下增长执行，如果你是一名增长实践者，这是你应该首先擅长的部分之一。

Within this competency grouping, there's three individual competencies that are channel fluency, experimentation, and what I'd call productizing learnings.

在这个能力分组中，存在三种个人能力，即渠道流畅性、实验性和我所说的产品化学习。

And so you can evaluate and ask questions to understand how good people are at these different things and what their experience has been with them.

因此，您可以评估并提出问题，以了解人们在这些不同事物上的擅长程度以及他们的经验。

Adam Fishman: So in productizing learnings for example, one of the key things that a growth person has to do is generate hypotheses, learn from those hypotheses and then translate that into changes that they're making in the product.

Adam Fishman：例如，在将学习产品化时，成长型人才必须做的关键事情之一就是提出假设，从这些假设中学习，然后将其转化为他们在产品中所做的更改。

And you want to find somebody who has a track record of at least understanding how to take something they have learned that might be an experiment or something that's very NVP and turn that into something that has hooks into different areas of the product.

你想要找到一个有记录的人，至少了解如何将他们所学到的东西（可能是实验或非常 NVP 的东西）转化为与产品的不同领域相关的东西。

And so that's a critical skill to evaluate.

因此，这是一项需要评估的关键技能。

And one of an example, the overall set of competencies.

举一个例子，整体能力。

Lenny: To throw in a question real quick, is one way to use this model, coming back to your Wyzant example where there's of course misalignment between you and the founder to sit down and look at this circle here and be like, "Here's where I'm strong, here's where maybe we need to hire someone to take over."

Lenny：快速提出问题是使用这个模型的一种方法，回到你的 Wyzant 例子，你和创始人之间当然存在不​​一致，坐下来看看这个圈子，然后说，“这是我强的地方，这是我们可能需要雇人来接手的地方。”

Adam Fishman: Yeah, absolutely.

亚当·菲什曼：是的，绝对如此。

You can almost use it as a reverse interviewing characteristic and say, "What are the competencies you, founder, CEO, care about?

你几乎可以将其用作反向面试的特征并说：“作为创始人、首席执行官，你关心的能力是什么？

What's really important to you for the first person in this role?

对于担任这个角色的第一人来说，什么对你来说真正重要？

Or the expectations that you have of what I will bring to the table." And then you can be really candid about what you're good at and what you're not good at, where you're developing.

或者你对我将带来什么的期望。”然后你就可以非常坦诚地谈论你擅长什么、不擅长什么以及你在哪里发展。

So yeah, I agree with that for sure.

所以是的，我肯定同意这一点。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I know this also plays into evaluating your performance and it could be like, "Hey Adam, here's the three things that we want to focus on in the next cycle."

我知道这也会影响你的表现评估，可能会这样说：“嘿亚当，这是我们在下一个周期要关注的三件事。”

Adam Fishman: For sure.

亚当·菲什曼：当然。

Yeah.

是的。

It's really a good foundational framework for being really concrete and specific in the feedback that you provide someone.

这确实是一个很好的基础框架，可以让您向某人提供的反馈变得非常具体和具体。

So rather than saying, "Adam, you really need to be more strategic." Everybody's heard that at some point and it's like, "Well, what do you mean?" You can say, "Hey, we need to work on the area of growth strategy and that means I need to see better modeling of loops out of you, better understanding communication of what those loops are." And you can give really concrete feedback.

因此，与其说“亚当，你真的需要更具战略性”。每个人都曾在某个时候听过这句话，然后就会说：“那么，你是什么意思？”你可以说，“嘿，我们需要在增长战略领域开展工作，这意味着我需要看到你更好的循环建模，更好地理解这些循环是什么的沟通。”您可以提供非常具体的反馈。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

So we've talked about growth execution, What's next?

我们已经讨论了增长执行，下一步是什么？

Adam Fishman: The next one is what I would call customer knowledge.

Adam Fishman：下一个是我所说的客户知识。

And within customer knowledge there's a set of things and really this is about data fluency and instrumentation, understanding user psychology, which is a big one, and then this idea of being able to experiment and learn over time and how you develop your narrative and your creative approach to talking to customers.

在客户知识中，有一系列的东西，实际上这与数据流畅性和仪器仪表、理解用户心理（这是一个重要的部分）有关，然后是能够随着时间的推移进行实验和学习的想法，以及如何发展你的叙述和与客户交谈的创造性方法。

I love user psychology and it's one of the things that I think attracted me to growth and to product.

我喜欢用户心理，我认为这是吸引我成长和产品的因素之一。

I studied consumer psychology when I was in college and I'm just probably would've been a psychologist if not for a growth practitioner, which is a weird other approach I could have taken in my career.

我在大学时学习了消费者心理学，如果不是成长实践者，我可能会成为一名心理学家，这是我在职业生涯中可以采取的另一种奇怪的方法。

But-

但是——

Adam Fishman: ...

亚当·菲什曼：...

Second career.

第二职业。

Yeah, actually, announcing today I'm pivoting the newsletter to just talk about therapy and psychology.

是的，实际上，今天宣布我将把时事通讯的重点转向治疗和心理学。

Lenny: Yes.

莱尼：是的。

This is going to be the title of the podcast.

这将是播客的标题。

Adam Fishman: Awesome.

亚当·菲什曼：太棒了。

So like user psychology, I think one of the things that people don't easily understand is that most people come to your product with an emotional frame and a lot of people want to appeal to their logical brain right away.

因此，就像用户心理学一样，我认为人们不容易理解的一件事是，大多数人带着情感框架来到你的产品，很多人想立即吸引他们的逻辑大脑。

And the reality is, don't do that.

现实是，不要这样做。

And so you have to understand the mindset that people are in.

所以你必须了解人们的心态。

How low are their lows?

他们的最低点有多低？

How high are their highs?

他们的最高点有多高？

Why are they seeking out your product?

他们为什么寻找您的产品？

And it often, as I mentioned, stems from some emotional challenge that they're having or something that they're seeking.

正如我所提到的，这通常源于他们正在经历的一些情感挑战或他们正在寻求的东西。

And it's not because your product is the best chat bot or because it gives the best answers.

这并不是因为您的产品是最好的聊天机器人，也不是因为它提供了最好的答案。

There's a different thing that they're trying to solve.

他们正在尝试解决另一件事。

And only when you address that can you move on to those other things.

只有当你解决这个问题时，你才能继续处理其他事情。

So that's the second competency is, customer knowledge.

这就是第二个能力，客户知识。

Lenny: It reminds me of something I mentioned on some podcast recently, this tweet that one of the Collison brothers tweeted about how user research is often misunderstood in that people think you do user research and that informs what you build.

莱尼：这让我想起我最近在一些播客中提到的事情，科里森兄弟之一在推特上发布了一条关于用户研究如何经常被误解的推文，因为人们认为你做了用户研究并告诉你构建了什么。

And instead the way you think about it is user research informs your model of your customer and that model informs what you build.

相反，你思考的方式是用户研究告诉你的客户模型，而该模型告诉你构建什么。

Lenny: And the more user research you do, the more your model evolves to help you understand the customer.

Lenny：你做的用户研究越多，你的模型就越能帮助你了解客户。

And that's been really helpful for me because I never thought of it that way.

这对我来说真的很有帮助，因为我从来没有这样想过。

Adam Fishman: Yeah.

亚当·菲什曼：是的。

I think that's a great example.

我认为这是一个很好的例子。

Seeking the solution in a customer interview is never going to work, right?

在客户访谈中寻求解决方案永远不会起作用，对吗？

You seek to understand and then you take that away and you can think through what the model should look like and how things should change as a result.

你试图理解，然后你把它拿走，你可以思考模型应该是什么样子以及结果应该如何改变。

Yeah.

是的。

That's great.

那太棒了。

I can cover the third and fourth competency-

我可以涵盖第三个和第四个能力-

Adam Fishman: ...

亚当·菲什曼：...

and I'll try to be a little more brief on that.

我将尝试更简短地介绍这一点。

Adam Fishman: The third competency is growth strategy.

Adam Fishman：第三项能力是增长战略。

And now the third and fourth competencies I would say are a bit more advanced topics.

现在我想说的第三个和第四个能力是更高级的主题。

And again, remember when I said people index higher or lower on these as they go across their career, I would expect a more junior growth person to not necessarily be a 10 out of 10 on strategy and communication.

再说一次，请记住，当我说人们在职业生涯中对这些指标的评价更高或更低时，我预计初级成长型人才在战略和沟通方面不一定是十分之十。

These are things that you really have to work at a long time.

这些都是你真正需要长期努力的事情。

They tend to be softer skills in a lot of cases and you learn best by either getting it very right or getting it very wrong.

在很多情况下，它们往往是较软的技能，你要么做得非常正确，要么做得非常错误，才能学得最好。

And so you've got to put in the time to develop these.

所以你必须投入时间来开发这些。

But in growth strategy, there's three.

但在增长战略中，有三个。

The first one is growth loop modeling.

第一个是增长循环建模。

So really understanding how you grow and where you should be spending your time.

所以真正了解你如何成长以及你应该把时间花在哪里。

What acquires users?

靠什么获取用户？

What retains them?

是什么留住了他们？

What monetizes them?

他们靠什么赚钱？

Adam Fishman: The second one is capital allocation and forecasting.

Adam Fishman：第二个是资本配置和预测。

This is basically where are you deploying either your money, your people, how are you managing the portfolio and how are you projecting that out into the future?

这基本上是你在哪里部署你的资金、你的人员、你如何管理投资组合以及你如何预测未来？

And that's a really hard one.

这真的很难。

You have to become best buddies with your finance friends in order to do that.

为了做到这一点，你必须与你的财务朋友成为最好的朋友。

And so anyways, that's capital allocation and forecasting.

无论如何，这就是资本配置和预测。

And then the third one is prioritization and road mapping.

第三个是优先顺序和路线图。

So you have to be able to sequence the work much like in building a product, right?

因此，您必须能够像构建产品一样对工作进行排序，对吗？

Building your growth strategy, you have to sequence it.

制定您的增长战略时，您必须对其进行排序。

That sequence has to make sense based on your growth models.

根据您的增长模型，该顺序必须有意义。

You have to have the capital or the people to allocate to that stuff.

你必须有资金或人才来分配这些东西。

And you have to be able to build a series of hypotheses in a series of solutions to test against those hypotheses so that you can learn and then productize to those learnings.

您必须能够在一系列解决方案中建立一系列假设，以测试这些假设，以便您可以学习，然后将这些知识产品化。

Adam Fishman: And there's a lot of ways to test this stuff.

Adam Fishman：有很多方法可以测试这些东西。

Situational, behavioral, interviewing, I talk a lot about this in my post on hiring growth.

情境、行为、面试，我在关于招聘增长的文章中谈论了很多这些。

There's like very specific questions you can ask to understand what people have done or what they might do in different situations.

您可以提出一些非常具体的问题来了解人们做了什么或他们在不同情况下可能会做什么。

There's case studies and things like that.

有案例研究之类的。

So that's the third one.

这是第三个。

And then the fourth one is communication and influence.

第四个是沟通和影响力。

Adam Fishman: And I would say, I think you probably know this as a PM, influence is one of the biggest and hardest skills to develop.

Adam Fishman：我想说，我想作为一名产品经理，你可能知道这一点，影响力是最重要、最难培养的技能之一。

It's no different in a growth practitioner and in some cases it can even be harder because sometimes people come in with a preconceived notion of what growth is and isn't and you have to change their mind.

这对于成长实践者来说并没有什么不同，在某些情况下甚至会更困难，因为有时人们对成长是什么和不是什么有先入为主的观念，你必须改变他们的想法。

And so within communication and influence, there's strategic communication.

因此，在沟通和影响力中，存在着战略沟通。

So how do a series of experiments and a series of things that you're trying, fit into the overall picture of a bigger bet that you're taking?

那么，一系列的实验和一系列你正在尝试的事情如何融入你正在进行的更大赌注的整体情况呢？

Adam Fishman: How do you lead a team?

Adam Fishman：你如何领导团队？

So team leadership is a big part of communication and influence.

所以团队领导力很重要的一部分就是沟通和影响力。

And then how do you manage stakeholders?

那么你如何管理利益相关者呢？

And this is hard in growth because often growth can be viewed as at odds with really thoughtful and quality craftsmanship and product building, but it's not.

这对于增长来说是很困难的，因为增长通常会被视为与真正深思熟虑和优质的工艺和产品建设相矛盾，但事实并非如此。

Those things go hand in hand.

这些事情是齐头并进的。

And so you really have to win people over on what it means to do growth.

因此，你确实必须让人们了解增长的意义。

And I would say, this is the pinnacle, right?

我想说，这就是巅峰，对吧？

This is the hardest one.

这是最难的。

It's a lifelong journey.

这是一生的旅程。

It relies very extensively on understanding people and who you're talking to.

它在很大程度上依赖于对人和你正在交谈的人的理解。

And those people can be very different from company to company and the currency that they trade in can be really different.

不同公司的人员可能有很大不同，他们交易的货币也可能非常不同。

And so this one is one where you have to go back to square one and relearn who the people are that you're working with every time you step into a new role or a new company or get a new leader or something like that.

因此，每次你进入新职位、新公司、新领导或类似情况时，你都必须回到原点，重新了解与你一起工作的人是谁。

So it can be really challenging and it's never done.

因此，这确实具有挑战性，而且从未完成。

Lenny: That component of the competency models, we're the PM of the growth PM role feels like if you were to do these Venn diagram of the two roles, feels like that's a big part of the overlap.

Lenny：能力模型的组成部分，我们是增长 PM 角色的 PM，感觉就像你要绘制这两个角色的维恩图一样，感觉这是重叠的很大一部分。

Adam Fishman: Yep, absolutely.

亚当·菲什曼：是的，绝对是。

There's a lot of overlap between exceptional product managers and exceptional growth practitioners.

杰出的产品经理和杰出的增长实践者之间有很多重叠之处。

I think sometimes they just use the skills in different ways.

我认为有时他们只是以不同的方式使用这些技能。

So you need to be great at product strategy to be a product leader, you need to be great at growth strategy to be a growth leader.

因此，你需要擅长产品战略才能成为产品领导者，你需要擅长增长战略才能成为增长领导者。

Just what those things look like can be different between the two.

两者之间的这些东西看起来可能有所不同。

But they're both required skills, required competencies to be exceptional at the role.

但它们都是在该职位上脱颖而出所需的技能和能力。

Lenny: So just to rehash, the four categories are communication influence, growth execution, customer knowledge and growth strategy.

莱尼：重申一下，这四个类别是沟通影响力、增长执行力、客户知识和增长战略。

You mentioned earlier that people often come to you and they're like, "How do we find another Adam?" And your feedback is one, how do you know that's exactly what you need?

你之前提到，人们经常来找你，他们会问：“我们怎样才能找到另一个亚当？”您的反馈是，您怎么知道这正是您所需要的？

And then two, find someone that's up and coming more because it's so hard to find folks like you that are actually ready to take on a head of growth role.

第二，找到一个更有前途的人，因为很难找到像你这样真正准备好担任增长主管角色的人。

Lenny: So a question for you is, one is, do you recommend founders focus on finding someone that's more up and coming and fast learning with a high trajectory?

莱尼：所以你要问的一个问题是，你是否建议创始人专注于寻找更有前途、快速学习的人？

And if so, which of these components would you suggest they look for most?

如果是这样，您建议他们最常寻找以下哪些组件？

Adam Fishman: One of the challenges of hiring a senior person is that they're all off writing newsletters and making podcast.

Adam Fishman：雇用高级人员的挑战之一是他们都在撰写时事通讯和制作播客。

Adam Fishman: Not that we know anybody who does that or anything, but-

Adam Fishman：并不是说我们认识任何人这样做或做过任何事，但是-

Lenny: No. That's bullshit.

莱尼：不，那是胡说八道。

What is that?

那是什么？

Adam Fishman: Yeah.

亚当·菲什曼：是的。

So I don't want to right now go back and work at a company again.

所以我现在不想再回去公司工作。

I'm enjoying what I'm doing and so it's hard to get me, right?

我很享受我正在做的事情，所以很难得到我，对吧？

But also you don't want me, I think, when you're doing this for the first time.

但我想，当你第一次这样做时，你也不想要我。

So I think the key there is smart and driven people for sure.

所以我认为关键肯定是聪明且有干劲的人。

Age and youth is a bit relative I'd say.

我想说，年龄和年轻是相对的。

So I would think about hiring somebody who you might say is less experienced in growth, but they could be very senior in another aspect of their career.

因此，我会考虑雇用一个你可能会说在成长方面经验较少的人，但他们在职业生涯的另一个方面可能非常资深。

You can also benefit from hiring somebody internally who wants to branch out into growth.

您还可以从内部雇用想要拓展业务的人员中受益。

And one of the benefits that you get from that is a lot of time they have one of those competencies really nailed already.

你从中获得的好处之一是，他们在很多时候已经真正掌握了其中一项能力。

Could be like customer knowledge.

可能就像客户知识一样。

They might understand your customer base super well because they're already inside the company.

他们可能非常了解您的客户群，因为他们已经在公司内部。

Adam Fishman: So if you're going to hire a junior person, the key is, how do you help them learn?

Adam Fishman：所以如果你要雇用初级人员，关键是你如何帮助他们学习？

And I think if you don't know what you're doing as the founder or the leader, it's hard.

我认为如果你不知道作为创始人或领导者你在做什么，那就很难了。

You're not going to be able to help them yourself.

你自己无法帮助他们。

So you've got to be willing to invest in advisors like me, outside education, mentorship, coaching, otherwise, what's going to happen is that very driven, hungry and enthusiastic person is going to run through a lot of brick walls, which is great, except they're going to miss the fact that the door was standing right next to the wall that they just ran through and you're going to end up with a lot of bricks on the ground.

所以你必须愿意投资像我这样的顾问，在教育、指导、辅导之外，否则，将会发生的情况是，那个非常有动力、饥饿和热情的人会跑过很多砖墙，这很好，但他们会错过这样一个事实：门就站在他们刚刚跑过的墙旁边，而你最终会在地上留下很多砖头。

Adam Fishman: Yeah, thank you.

亚当·菲什曼：是的，谢谢。

And so I have some examples of both hiring people and moving people over in my career.

因此，我有一些在我的职业生涯中雇用人员和调动人员的例子。

So I think tangible examples are really helpful here.

所以我认为具体的例子在这里非常有帮助。

So when I was at Lyft, I had the privilege of hiring that young, smart and driven person a bunch of times, but one of the people who comes to mind is a guy named Ben Lauzier.

因此，当我在 Lyft 时，我有幸多次雇用了这位年轻、聪明、有进取心的人，但我想到的人之一是一个名叫本·劳齐尔 (Ben Lauzier) 的人。

You should have him on the podcast at some point.

你应该在某个时候让他出现在播客上。

He's French, he's very nice to listen to you.

他是法国人，很高兴听你讲话。

He was most recently a VP of product at Thumbtack, but he was definitely not that when I hired him, he was a jack of all trades marketer working at a corporate catering startup when I hired him at Lyft.

他最近担任 Thumbtack 的产品副总裁，但当我雇用他时，他绝对不是这样的，当我在 Lyft 雇用他时，他是在一家企业餐饮初创公司工作的多才多艺的营销人员。

And he had nailed most of the growth execution and the customer knowledge competencies.

他掌握了大部分增长执行力和客户知识能力。

Adam Fishman: One was, he was an avid Lyft user himself, so he really understood the product really well.

Adam Fishman：一是，他本人就是 Lyft 的狂热用户，所以他非常了解该产品。

And also, he was just very thoughtful about how he executed, how he experimented.

而且，他对自己的执行方式和实验方式也非常深思熟虑。

He had done a lot of it and he was very skilled at pulling them off in a very small environment because he had just had to be.

他已经完成了很多工作，并且非常擅长在一个非常小的环境中完成这些工作，因为他不得不这样做。

And those are the two most important competencies when you're bringing in a younger, earlier stage person because teaching somebody how to execute is not that fun, right?

当你引进一个更年轻、处于早期阶段的人时，这些是两个最重要的能力，因为教别人如何执行并不那么有趣，对吧？

That's a hard skill.

这是一项很难的技能。

The ability to execute is something like executive function skills and things like that.

执行能力类似于执行功能技能之类的东西。

If you haven't developed those by the time you are an adult, I don't know that I'm going to be able to teach you and I'm certainly probably not the right person to teach you.

如果你成年后还没有发展出这些能力，我不知道我是否能够教你，而且我当然可能不是教你的合适人选。

You should definitely get some outside assistance with that.

您绝对应该获得一些外部帮助。

And so I like to get those types of people that have those things if I'm hiring that generally inexperienced growth practitioner.

因此，如果我要雇用通常缺乏经验的成长实践者，我希望找到具有这些能力的人。

Lenny: And the two things you said are customer knowledge and execution.

莱尼：你所说的两件事是客户知识和执行力。

Is that the two you said?

是你说的那两个吗？

Adam Fishman: Yes.

亚当·菲什曼：是的。

Customer knowledge and growth execution.

客户知识和增长执行力。

And so let me tell you an execution story about Ben really quick.

让我快速告诉你一个关于本的处决故事。

This comes also down to work ethic too.

这也归结为职业道德。

So we interviewed Ben and it was a long day of interviews in a tiny glass conference room and Lyft was, I don't know, 30 people or something at the time.

所以我们采访了 Ben，在一个小小的玻璃会议室里进行了一整天的采访，我不知道 Lyft 当时有 30 个人左右。

At one of the interview breaks, Ben had come over and he didn't have his computer and anything like that.

在一次采访间隙，本过来了，但他没有带电脑之类的东西。

And so he was ducking out of work to do the interview.

于是他就辞去了工作去接受采访。

And he actually came out of the office and he's like, "Hey, does anybody have a computer that I can borrow?" And so we gave him this old crappy Chromebook and I was like, "Why do you need a computer?" And he's like, "I have to go edit this file and do this thing and check something in at work and deploy this thing or whatever."

当他走出办公室时，他说：“嘿，有人有电脑可以借给我吗？”所以我们给了他这台破旧的 Chromebook，我当时就想，“你为什么需要一台电脑？”他说，“我必须去编辑这个文件，做这件事，在工作中签入一些东西，然后部署这个东西或其他什么。”

Adam Fishman: And I'm like, "Wow, this is a guy that really knows how to get stuff done and is so much so that he's pausing his interview process so that he could go get a thing done for his company that he's actively trying to leave, but he's got this work ethic and this execution." And that really stuck with me.

亚当·菲什曼：我想，“哇，这个人真的知道如何把事情做好，而且非常了解，以至于他暂停了面试过程，这样他就可以为他正在积极尝试离开的公司完成一些事情，但他有这种职业道德和这种执行力。”这真的让我难以忘怀。

And he probably would remember this story if we brought it up.

如果我们提起这个故事，他可能会记住这个故事。

So the time he borrowed a crappy Chromebook laptop to do work at the job that he was trying to leave.

因此，有一次他借了一台蹩脚的 Chromebook 笔记本电脑来完成他想要离开的工作。

Lenny: What are the chances that was staged?

莱尼：上演的可能性有多大？

Adam Fishman: He seemed very innocent.

Adam Fishman：他看起来很无辜。

So I think not staged.

所以我认为没有上演。

Adam Fishman: But I could be wrong.

Adam Fishman：但我可能是错的。

But now everyone that interviews that is going to ask to borrow a laptop and-

但现在每个面试的人都会要求借一台笔记本电脑并且——

Lenny: "Adam, I need to fix something."

莱尼：“亚当，我需要解决一些问题。”

Adam Fishman: That's right.

亚当·菲什曼：没错。

So that's Ben.

这就是本。

And then on the other side, and I'll cover this one really quickly, and the other side of moving somebody over internally, I had equally great success with that.

另一方面，我会很快地介绍这一点，而另一方面，在内部调动某人，我在这方面也取得了同样巨大的成功。

So there was another person named Sean at Patreon who was a marketer, again, a jack of all trades marketer.

Patreon 的另一个人叫 Sean，他是一名营销人员，也是一位多才多艺的营销人员。

And I think I have a propensity and a bias towards folks like that because that's one of the ways that I started my career was in marketing.

我认为我对这样的人有一种倾向和偏见，因为这是我开始职业生涯的方式之一就是从事营销。

But anyways, I moved him over from marketing to being a growth PM, an entry level growth PM.

但无论如何，我把他从营销调到了增长项目经理，初级增长项目经理。

Adam Fishman: And he had a ton of the execution skills, ability to prioritize really well and customer knowledge skills as well, more so on the customer side because he was an internal transfer, so he really knew our customers.

Adam Fishman：他拥有大量的执行技能、能够很好地确定优先顺序的能力以及客户知识技能，尤其是在客户方面，因为他是内部调动，所以他真正了解我们的客户。

He'd spent tons of time talking to people, studying data and things like that.

他花了很多时间与人交谈、研究数据等等。

And he had really great fluency with data and a drive to continue improving his ability to access and pull out insights and information.

他对数据非常熟练，并且有动力继续提高获取和提取见解和信息的能力。

And so he turned out to be really great, but just a very different profile of a person than Ben was.

结果证明他真的很伟大，但只是一个与本截然不同的人。

And here's an internal hire versus an external hire.

这是内部雇用与外部雇用的比较。

Adam Fishman: So you can have success with both, but I think you really have to make sure that there's some foundational things that are in place like that ability to get customer knowledge and execute.

Adam Fishman：所以你可以在两者上取得成功，但我认为你确实必须确保有一些基础性的东西到位，比如获取客户知识和执行的能力。

Lenny: If a founder is listening and trying to decide or hiring a head of growth or a new growth person, would you push them one way or the other, internal hire versus finding someone up and coming and smart?

莱尼：如果创始人正在倾听并试图决定或聘用一位增长主管或新的增长人员，你会以某种方式推动他们，内部招聘还是寻找有前途的聪明人？

Adam Fishman: I tend to skew more towards internal hire to be perfectly honest, because I believe in creating opportunity inside a company.

Adam Fishman：说实话，我更倾向于内部招聘，因为我相信在公司内部创造机会。

I think it's not done often enough.

我认为这还不够频繁。

And I also believe that helping people transition into new roles is a way to get more people into the practice.

我还相信，帮助人们过渡到新角色是让更多人参与实践的一种方式。

And one of the ways that can happen is if you take a chance on somebody who has demonstrated a good track record in some other aspect of your business.

可能发生的方法之一是，如果您抓住一个在您业务的其他方面表现良好的人的机会。

So I tend to recommend internal.

所以我倾向于推荐内部。

I think you have faster time to results.

我认为你可以更快地得到结果。

I think you know what you're getting better and in much less likelihood of making the wrong hire there.

我认为你知道自己在哪些方面做得更好，并且在那里招聘错误的可能性要小得多。

So I bias towards internal hires.

所以我偏向于内部招聘。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

And I think partly, I feel that too because there's so much content and training for growth these days that somebody has that background in your company and is already motivated and excited and then can just learn, go to Reforge course, read certain newsletters, feels like it's a lot easier to ramp up.

我想，部分原因是，我也有这样的感觉，因为现在有太多关于成长的内容和培训，有人在你的公司有这样的背景，并且已经充满动力和兴奋，然后可以学习，参加 Reforge 课程，阅读某些时事通讯，感觉晋升要容易得多。

Except, I always feel like if you need someone for SEO or paid growth, that's a hard thing to learn.

除此之外，我总觉得如果你需要某人进行搜索引擎优化或付费增长，这是一件很难学习的事情。

What's your take there?

你对此有何看法？

Adam Fishman: I would bucket that type of person into a specialist.

Adam Fishman：我会把这类人归类为专家。

And one of the archetypes that I talk about is this idea of the painter versus the architect versus the surgeon.

我谈论的原型之一是画家与建筑师与外科医生的对比。

And the surgeon is your precision person.

外科医生是您的精确人选。

I don't actually recommend hiring that as your first hire, but when you are onto something and you really need expertise and you don't have that expertise internally, yes, I think hiring externally is the right thing to do at that point because those are really specific skills that some people have taken years to learn.

我实际上并不建议将其作为你的第一个员工，但是当你从事某件事并且你确实需要专业知识并且你内部没有这种专业知识时，是的，我认为在那时外部招聘是正确的事情，因为这些确实是一些人花了数年时间学习的特定技能。

And I can't just teach someone SEO over the course of a weekend and expect that they're really going to get it.

我不能只在一个周末的时间里教别人 SEO，并期望他们真的能学会。

In those cases, I think hiring that specialist or that surgeon is the right approach, once you've got some of the foundational stuff in place.

在这些情况下，我认为一旦你掌握了一些基础知识，聘请专家或外科医生是正确的方法。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Great.

伟大的。

Yeah, it feels like there's still a lot of dark art in those two specialties that take years of experience.

是的，感觉这两个专业仍然有很多黑暗艺术，需要多年的经验。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Eppo.

Lenny：这一集是 Eppo 为您带来的。

Eppo is a next generation AB testing platform built by Airbnb alums for modern growth teams.

Eppo 是 Airbnb 校友为现代增长团队打造的下一代 AB 测试平台。

Companies like Netlify, Tenfold and Cameo rely on Apple to power their experiments.

Netlify、Tenfold 和 Cameo 等公司依靠苹果来支持他们的实验。

Wherever you work, running experiments is increasingly essential, but there are no commercial tools that integrate with a modern grow team stack.

无论您在哪里工作，运行实验都变得越来越重要，但是没有可以与现代种植团队堆栈集成的商业工具。

This leads to waste of time building internal tools, or trying to run your experiments through a clunky marketing tool.

这会导致浪费时间构建内部工具，或尝试通过笨重的营销工具进行实验。

When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved about our experimentation platform was being able to easily slice results by device, by country, and by user stage.

当我在 Airbnb 工作时，我喜欢我们的实验平台的一件事是能够轻松地按设备、国家和用户阶段划分结果。

Lenny: Eppo does all that and more, delivering results quickly, avoiding annoying prolonged analytic cycles and helping you easily get to the root cause of any issue you discover.

Lenny：Eppo 做到了这一切，甚至更多，快速提供结果，避免恼人的长时间分析周期，并帮助您轻松找到所发现问题的根本原因。

Eppo lets you go beyond basic clickthrough metrics and instead, you turn north star metrics like activation, retention, subscriptions and payments.

Eppo 让您超越基本的点击率指标，而是转向北极星指标，例如激活、保留、订阅和付款。

And Eppo supports test on the front end, the back end, email marketing and even machine learning clients.

Eppo支持前端、后端、电子邮件营销甚至机器学习客户端的测试。

Check out Eppo at geteppo.com, gete-p-p-o.com and 10x your experiment velocity.

请访问 geteppo.com、gete-p-p-o.com 和 10 倍实验速度查看 Eppo。

Lenny: This is a good time to segue to our second topic, which is onboarding.

Lenny：现在是继续讨论我们的第二个主题的好时机，即入职培训。

I know you're a big proponent of spending time on onboarding, optimizing onboarding.

我知道您非常支持花时间在入职培训、优化入职培训上。

How have you found onboarding to be as a lever for growth and just what gets you excited about investing in onboarding?

您如何看待入职培训作为增长杠杆的作用？是什么让您对入职培训感到兴奋？

Adam Fishman: I love onboarding.

Adam Fishman：我喜欢入职培训。

I probably do at least an onboarding project to at least one with every company that I've worked for and a lot that I advise.

我可能至少为我工作过的每一家公司和我提供过很多建议的公司至少做过一个入职项目。

The first thing I would say is, onboarding is the only part of your product experience that a hundred percent of people are ever going to touch.

我要说的第一件事是，入职培训是产品体验中 100% 的人都会接触到的唯一部分。

Good luck getting a hundred percent feature adoption of anything else in your product right?

祝你好运，让你的产品中的其他任何功能得到 100% 的采用，对吗？

But onboarding is the thing that you have to go through in order to use the product.

但入职培训是您使用该产品必须经历的事情。

It's also the first opportunity that you have as a company to deliver on the promise that you made out in the marketplace.

这也是您作为一家公司兑现您在市场上做出的承诺的第一次机会。

Adam Fishman: So I like to think of your brand is the promise that you're making and your product experience is your delivery of that promise.

Adam Fishman：所以我喜欢认为你的品牌就是你做出的承诺，你的产品体验就是你兑现这一承诺。

And those two things have to be in lockstep with each other or you're going to have mismatched expectations and some really disappointed customers.

这两件事必须步调一致，否则您的期望将会不匹配，并且会让一些客户感到非常失望。

So this is the first chance that a customer has to be really excited or really disappointed in what they thought they were getting.

因此，这是客户第一次对他们认为得到的东西感到非常兴奋或非常失望。

So don't mess that up.

所以别搞砸了。

Adam Fishman: And the third thing I would say is it's also probably the most motivated that someone is going to be about your product since they're typically starting their onboarding journey with you at a time where they're like, "I need this thing really badly that you're selling." And so they're really motivated, right?

Adam Fishman：我要说的第三件事是，这也可能是人们对你的产品最有动力的地方，因为他们通常会在他们开始与你一起开始他们的入职旅程时，他们会说，“我非常需要你正在销售的这个东西。”所以他们真的很有动力，对吧？

And so it's an opportunity for you to put some friction in place and learn a lot about them because they will knock down doors to get to your product.

因此，这对您来说是一个机会，可以增加一些摩擦并了解很多有关他们的信息，因为他们会敲开大门来获得您的产品。

So that's why I think it's a super powerful lever for growth.

这就是为什么我认为它是一个超级强大的增长杠杆。

And we worked on this extensively at Lyft, at Patreon, Wyzant, Imperfect Foods just released some onboarding improvements that we had created when I was there, which was nice to see that finally come to light.

我们在 Lyft、Patreon、Wyzant、Imperfect Foods 等公司进行了广泛的研究，刚刚发布了一些我们在我在那里时创建的入职改进，很高兴看到这些改进最终得以实现。

So yeah, I've done this pretty much everywhere at some point.

是的，我在某个时候几乎到处都这样做过。

Lenny: What impact have you seen from working on onboarding to give people a sense of like, "Wow, this is what I can get if I put some time here."

Lenny：您认为入职工作会给人们一种“哇，如果我在这里花一些时间就能得到的东西”的感觉，这会产生什么影响。

Adam Fishman: Yeah.

亚当·菲什曼：是的。

One of the things that onboarding really drives is habit formation with the product, which leads to retention.

入职真正推动的事情之一是对产品的习惯形成，这会导致保留。

And so you should expect to improve your overall cohort retention curves by focusing on the onboarding and activation experience.

因此，您应该期望通过关注入职和激活体验来改善您的整体群组保留曲线。

I have seen companies shift their curve outward by 10, 15, 20 percentage points from making those changes, especially when you consider that churn is most likely to happen in the very earliest usage of the product.

我见过一些公司因做出这些改变而将曲线向外移动 10、15、20 个百分点，特别是当您认为客户流失最有可能发生在产品的最早使用过程中时。

If you can get people past that hump, it's a really invaluable part of the product to work on.

如果你能让人们克服这个困难，那么这就是产品中非常有价值的部分。

Adam Fishman: So I'll give you a really concrete example.

Adam Fishman：所以我会给你一个非常具体的例子。

At Patreon, one of the places we worked on onboarding really extensively and the onboarding experience was one of the teams that we had on growth at Patreon.

在 Patreon，我们在入职方面进行了广泛的工作，而入职经验是我们在 Patreon 成长的团队之一。

We did a lot of experimentation around the earliest, what we would call product led sales now, when do you connect a human being with a creator and the onboarding experience and what is that impact and how do you connect them with the right person or with the right creator when there are tens of thousands going through that onboarding journey every week?

我们最早围绕现在所谓的产品主导销售进行了很多实验，什么时候将人类与创作者和入职体验联系起来，这种影响是什么？当每周都有数以万计的人经历入职旅程时，如何将他们与合适的人或合适的创作者联系起来？

Adam Fishman: What we realized through a lot of experimentation was the idea of connecting someone with a human being the right person at the right time would improve the first month of revenue or the second month of revenue that a creator made on the platform by 25%.

Adam Fishman：通过大量实验，我们意识到，在正确的时间将某人与正确的人联系起来，可以将创作者在平台上的第一个月或第二个月的收入提高 25%。

Why that mattered is because the second month that you processed payments on the platform was a key input into your LTV on the platform.

为什么这很重要，因为您在平台上处理付款的第二个月是平台上 LTV 的关键输入。

So by improving a creator's first and second month revenue by 25%, we were then able to improve their overall value on Patreon by an equivalent amount, which is pretty massive.

因此，通过将创作者的第一个月和第二个月的收入提高 25%，我们就能够将他们在 Patreon 上的整体价值提高同等数量，这是相当大的。

Moving anything by 25% is really impressive.

将任何东西移动 25% 确实令人印象深刻。

Adam Fishman: And so that was human intervention, and then we actually started to productize the stuff that the humans were doing.

Adam Fishman：这就是人类的干预，然后我们实际上开始生产人类正在做的事情。

And so what is not scalable when you're using people becomes very scalable if you can replicate components of that with technology.

因此，如果您可以通过技术复制其中的组件，那么当您使用人员时不可扩展的内容就会变得非常可扩展。

And so that was the next phase, so we get back to that growth execution thing that I talked about and productizing learnings.

这就是下一阶段，所以我们回到我谈到的增长执行和产品化学习。

That is an example of how you go from, we've learned some things by humans that have made a 25% impact to now we're building these into the product.

这是一个例子，说明我们如何从人类学到的一些东西产生了 25% 的影响，到现在我们将这些东西构建到产品中。

And so that's a really good example I think, of Patreon and one of the impacts that we had on creator, earnings, retention and their overall success on the platform.

因此，我认为这是 Patreon 的一个很好的例子，也是我们对创作者、收入、保留率及其在平台上的整体成功的影响之一。

Lenny: That's an amazing example, in case it's useful to a person working on the onboarding.

Lenny：这是一个很棒的例子，如果它对从事入职工作的人有用的话。

Can you share any more about what you actually did there?

您能分享更多有关您在那里实际做了什么的信息吗？

You create some algorithm of this type of person, we'll connect them to a person and then you productize it.

您为此类人创建一些算法，我们将它们与一个人联系起来，然后您将其产品化。

Is there anything more you could share there that might be useful to folks?

您还有什么可以分享的，可能对人们有用的吗？

Adam Fishman: Gosh, we did so much.

Adam Fishman：天哪，我们做了这么多。

So I'll try to pull out a couple of example.

所以我会尝试举几个例子。

So one of the things that we did, and again, I spoke to the fact that people are really motivated in your onboarding experience, one of the first things we did was we tried to identify better who a creator was in the onboarding experience.

因此，我们所做的一件事，我再次谈到了这样一个事实，即人们在入职体验中确实受到了激励，我们做的第一件事之一就是我们试图更好地确定谁是入职体验中的创作者。

And who they were meant how big is their audience on a bunch of the channels where they managed communities, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Discord, YouTube, et cetera.

他们是谁意味着他们在管理社区的一系列渠道（Twitter、Facebook、Instagram、Discord、YouTube 等）上有多少受众。

And then how engaged was that audience?

那么观众的参与度如何？

It's one thing if you make crazy cat videos on YouTube and you have a million subscribers, it's another thing if every time you publish a video, all million of those people watch it, comment on it, share it, et cetera.

如果你在 YouTube 上制作疯狂的猫视频并且拥有一百万订阅者，这是一回事，如果每次你发布视频时，都有数百万人观看它、评论它、分享它，等等，那就是另一回事了。

Adam Fishman: And so we would ask creators to connect various accounts to Patreon, maybe through authoring with YouTube or Spotify or Instagram or Facebook or something like that, Twitter, and then we would pull in the data into our backend and identify people who had large followings and also heavily engaged followings, based on a set of criteria per channel.

Adam Fishman：因此，我们会要求创作者将各种帐户连接到 Patreon，可能通过使用 YouTube、Spotify、Instagram 或 Facebook 或类似的 Twitter 进行创作，然后我们会将数据提取到后端，并根据每个频道的一组标准来识别拥有大量关注者和高度参与的关注者的人。

And again, this was not just like me inventing this.

再说一次，这不仅仅是我发明的。

We had a data scientist team that we worked very closely with to figure out what was important and what wasn't in this model.

我们有一个数据科学家团队，我们与他们密切合作，找出这个模型中什么是重要的，什么是不重要的。

And then if you were one of those people that had a high propensity for success, high potential creators, we would siphon them off from the regular self-guided onboarding and basically land them in the lap of a human being who could engage with them, reach out, get them even more excited and start talking to them about the best things to do.

然后，如果你是那些具有高成功倾向、高潜力创造者的人之一，我们会把他们从常规的自我引导入职培训中吸走，基本上把他们放在一个可以与他们互动、伸出援手、让他们更加兴奋并开始与他们谈论最好的事情的人的身边。

Adam Fishman: And then the productization of that, the best things to do turned out to be things like one of our product principles, which became opinionated defaults, which is basically making it hard to do the wrong thing when you're setting up your Patreon page and easy to do the right thing but not eliminating choice.

Adam Fishman：然后产品化，最好的事情就是我们的产品原则之一，它变成了固执己见的默认值，这基本上使你在设置 Patreon 页面时很难做错事，并且很容易做正确的事，但不会消除选择。

Adam Fishman: So the creator could still make the choice to do the wrong thing.

Adam Fishman：所以创作者仍然可以选择做错误的事情。

They could still set up a single tier when we knew that a three-tiered pricing model actually would work better for them, or they could choose to set up 40 tiers when we knew that the sweet spot was three to five or perhaps make their lowest price tier a dollar instead of what we recommended, which was like three or $5 entry points.

当我们知道三层定价模型实际上更适合他们时，他们仍然可以设置单层，或者当我们知道最佳点是三到五层时，他们可以选择设置 40 层，或者可能将他们的最低价格层设置为 1 美元，而不是我们推荐的，就像 3 或 5 美元的切入点。

So they could do all that stuff, but we made it difficult for them to do it.

所以他们可以做所有这些事情，但我们让他们很难做到。

We put more friction in place when they were trying to change some of those defaults because we had learned across a universe of creators, hundreds of thousands of people what worked best.

当他们试图改变其中一些默认设置时，我们会施加更多的摩擦，因为我们已经从众多创作者、数十万人中了解到什么是最有效的。

Adam Fishman: And so putting in those guardrails and those default things was a huge lever for us to drive the behavior that we wanted.

Adam Fishman：因此，设置这些护栏和默认设置对于我们推动我们想要的行为是一个巨大的杠杆。

And again, we learned that from human intervention with the right types of creators, then detecting those people and putting in the guardrails in the product themselves and making those recommendations inside the product experience.

我们再次从对正确类型的创作者的人为干预中了解到这一点，然后检测这些人并在产品本身中设置护栏，并在产品体验中提出这些建议。

And they were pricing tier structure, how you actually write your page, all of that stuff.

它们是定价层结构、您实际编写页面的方式，所有这些东西。

Lenny: Such a great example.

莱尼：这是一个很好的例子。

It reminds me we had exactly the same situation at Airbnb that you just made me think about.

这让我想起我们在 Airbnb 遇到的情况与你刚才让我想到的完全一样。

We called it smart defaults.

我们称之为智能默认值。

What was your term?

你的任期是什么？

Opinionated defaults?

固执己见的默认值？

Lenny: Yeah, I like that.

莱尼：是的，我喜欢这样。

So at Airbnb we had a bunch of calendar settings when a host signs up, on the host side is where I spent a lot of my time, we had instant book, which is basically you sign up as a host and people can book you instantly.

因此，在 Airbnb，当房东注册时，我们有很多日历设置，在房东方面，我花了很多时间，我们有即时预订，基本上就是您注册为房东，人们可以立即为您预订。

That became the default for Airbnb.

这成为 Airbnb 的默认做法。

And so to make that successful, hosts had to have their calendar be accurate from the beginning.

因此，为了使这一活动取得成功，东道主必须从一开始就确保他们的日历准确无误。

And so what we got to eventually, is we tried to figure out, are you a professional host that knows what you're doing?

所以我们最终要做的是，我们试图弄清楚，您是一位知道自己在做什么的专业主持人吗？

Are you a mom and pop that's just trying this out?

您是刚刚尝试这个的妈妈和流行音乐吗？

And then based on that, either block your entire calendar, keep it all open, or somewhere in between.

然后基于此，要么阻止整个日历，要么保持所有日历打开，或者介于两者之间。

Lenny: And it's interesting that it connects to your point about, and I was going to come back to this that, a lot of people think of onboarding as a conversion opportunity and it definitely is.

莱尼：有趣的是，它与你的观点有关，我要回过头来说，很多人认为入职是一个转换机会，而且确实如此。

But to your point, even more interestingly, it's a retention opportunity because in the Airbnb case, hosts sign up, they get booked for a day, they don't want to host, they're like, "Shit, what the hell's going on here?

但就你的观点而言，更有趣的是，这是一个保留机会，因为在 Airbnb 的案例中，房东注册后，他们被预订了一天，他们不想出租，他们会说，“妈的，这里到底发生了什么？

I'm out."

我出去了。”

Lenny: And so, I wanted to ask you, how should folks think about onboarding conversion versus retention, and why is it so powerful for retention?

莱尼：所以，我想问你，人们应该如何考虑入职转化与保留，以及为什么它对于保留如此强大？

Adam Fishman: I actually think if you're doing it right, sometimes conversion should actually decrease a little bit.

Adam Fishman：实际上，我认为如果你做得正确，有时转化率实际上应该会减少一点。

So you might actually have fewer people getting all the way through successfully, but I think that's okay because a lot of those people were probably not the right people for your product, which means they wouldn't have been engaged customers, they probably would have churned.

因此，实际上成功通过的人可能会更少，但我认为这没关系，因为其中很多人可能不是适合您产品的人，这意味着他们不会成为参与的客户，他们可能会流失。

So just by the nature of actually weeding out some people, you're going to improve retention because the people who are going through are the people who are much more highly qualified.

因此，根据实际淘汰某些人的本质，您将提高保留率，因为正在淘汰的人是资历更高的人。

And so I think that's also why onboarding is so challenging because you have to figure out what that sweet spot is, right?

所以我认为这也是为什么入职如此具有挑战性，因为你必须弄清楚最佳点是什么，对吧？

Adam Fishman: You could actually reduce conversion to a point where it's not offset by improvements in retention and you'd be doing the wrong thing.

Adam Fishman：实际上，您可以将转化率降低到无法通过保留率的提高来抵消的程度，但您会做错误的事情。

So when you're experimenting, you have to look at these push and pull metrics of these opposing metrics.

因此，当您进行试验时，您必须查看这些相反指标的推和拉指标。

But overall, I find that the biggest impact that you'll have is on retaining users because you are trying to connect them to the value that your product offers and form a habit.

但总的来说，我发现你所产生的最大影响是留住用户，因为你试图将他们与你的产品提供的价值联系起来并形成一种习惯。

And if you form that habit early on, they're going to stick around because they're going to get it, they're going to get the benefit of the product, and they're going to be excited to stay and then tell more people about it.

如果你很早就养成了这种习惯，他们就会坚持下去，因为他们会得到它，他们会从产品中受益，他们会很高兴留下来，然后告诉更多的人。

So that's why I think it's a much bigger impact on retention than conversion.

这就是为什么我认为它对保留率的影响比转化更大。

Lenny: Obviously retention is a longer tail metric and conversion is immediate.

Lenny：显然，留存率是一个长尾指标，而且转化是立竿见影的。

Lenny: Do you have any tips for folks that are like, "Oh my God, how do I know if this conversion hit is worth retention increasing potentially?"

莱尼：对于那些“天啊，我怎么知道这个转化率是否值得增加潜在的保留率？”的人，你有什么建议吗？

Adam Fishman: Yeah.

亚当·菲什曼：是的。

I think the answer is not wait 90 days to find out, right?

我想答案不是要等90天才能找到，对吗？

Nobody has that time.

没有人有那个时间。

And so what I tend to do is look at proxy metrics.

所以我倾向于做的是查看代理指标。

So there are proxies for things like 90 day retention.

因此，有诸如 90 天保留期之类的代理。

As an example at Patreon, one of our proxies around the eventual success of a creator was how quickly they would reach certain dollar thresholds once they launched.

以 Patreon 为例，我们关于创作者最终成功的指标之一是他们在推出后达到特定美元门槛的速度。

And so your velocity to get to your first patron, your first a hundred dollars processed on the platform and that thing had a lot to do with how big and successful you would be, and therefore how well you would retain.

因此，你获得第一个顾客的速度，你在平台上处理的第一笔一百美元，这与你的规模和成功程度以及你的保留程度有很大关系。

Adam Fishman: And so we looked at very early signals to understand and evaluate how good someone was going to be.

Adam Fishman：所以我们研究了非常早期的信号来理解和评估一个人的表现有多好。

We also did a lot of qualitative screening in the beginning.

我们一开始也做了很多定性筛选。

So as people went through, we would take samplings of creators who were onboarding and signing up and launching their pages, and we would actually look at who the creator was and what they were doing.

因此，当人们浏览时，我们会对正在加入、注册和启动其页面的创作者进行抽样，我们实际上会了解创作者是谁以及他们在做什么。

And then we would be able to run it through our model to say, "It looks like we're getting a lot of the right people going through and doing the right behaviors, therefore, we're very confident that they're going to retain better and do the right things." So yeah, proxy metrics are the key there.

然后我们就可以通过我们的模型来运行它，说：“看起来我们正在让很多合适的人经历并做出正确的行为，因此，我们非常有信心他们会更好地保留并做正确的事情。”所以，是的，代理指标是关键。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

So part of this is find this leading indicator proxy metric, and then to your point, maybe build a little bit of a heuristic that's like, okay, this is qualitatively looking like it's doing the right things to our new users.

因此，其中一部分是找到这个领先指标代理指标，然后就你的观点而言，也许可以构建一些启发式的方法，就像，好吧，从定性上看，它正在为我们的新用户做正确的事情。

Lenny: Maybe our last question on onboarding is, at Airbnb and I imagine many companies, there's this constant desire to, "Let's just redo this whole thing.

莱尼：也许我们关于入职的最后一个问题是，在 Airbnb 和我想很多公司中，都有这样一种持续的愿望：“让我们重做这一切吧。

Let's just redesign it.

让我们重新设计一下吧。

Let's start again." And my question to you is just, how much is too much on redoing, rethinking, onboarding, optimizing, micro-optimizing?

让我们重新开始吧。”我问你的问题是，重做、重新思考、入职、优化、微观优化多少算太多？

Any answers there?

有答案吗？

Adam Fishman: Yeah.

亚当·菲什曼：是的。

I would say first, I very strongly dislike the idea of redesigning something for redesigning sake.

我首先要说的是，我非常不喜欢为了重新设计而重新设计的想法。

So I think that it is true that you should spend a lot of time on onboarding, and you should regularly revisit it as you learn new things about your users.

因此，我认为您确实应该在入职培训上花费大量时间，并且当您了解有关用户的新信息时，您应该定期重新访问它。

So even at Patreon, we would work on onboarding and then we take a beat, we'd let it go for a while, improved, and then as we learn new things, we would find ways to fold those back into onboarding.

因此，即使在 Patreon，我们也会致力于入职培训，然后我们会稍事休息，暂时放手，进行改进，然后当我们学习新事物时，我们会找到将这些内容重新纳入入职培训的方法。

So I find that it's acceptable to revisit when you are learning net new principles about your customers or something new about your growth model where onboarding can directly influence.

因此，我发现，当您正在学习有关客户的新原则或有关入职可以直接影响的增长模型的新内容时，重新审视是可以接受的。

Adam Fishman: So as we learned at Patreon what the right tier construction was, or the right way to talk about your Patreon page or the right way to message it in the beginning, we would go back and say, "How do we build this newfound knowledge into an experience that sets someone up for success?" But if we weren't gaining new insights, we weren't just tweaking the onboarding experience and trying to tune it in a very micro way, because the reality is, that doesn't really move the needle that often, especially once you've got it in a pretty good foundational place.

Adam Fishman：因此，当我们在 Patreon 了解到什么是正确的层级结构，或者谈论 Patreon 页面的正确方式，或者一开始就传递消息的正确方式时，我们会回过头来说，“我们如何将这些新发现的知识构建成一种帮助某人取得成功的体验？”但如果我们没有获得新的见解，我们就不仅仅是调整入职体验并尝试以非常微观的方式对其进行调整，因为现实是，这并不能经常改变现状，尤其是当你已经把它放在一个非常好的基础位置时。

And only when you discover something really fundamentally net new, will it have an outsized impact on retention or the success of early users.

只有当你发现一些真正全新的东西时，它才会对早期用户的保留或成功产生巨大的影响。

So don't just redesign for redesign sake, make sure there's a new hard earned insight that you've got before you do it.

因此，不要只是为了重新设计而重新设计，请确保在这样做之前您已经获得了新的来之不易的见解。

Lenny: Do you think at scale companies, I don't know, maybe after hundreds of people, they should have a team, like an onboarding optimization team?

Lenny：我不知道，你认为在规模化的公司中，也许在数百人之后，他们应该有一个团队，比如入职优化团队？

I find that often is true.

我发现这通常是正确的。

And I guess, do you think that makes sense?

我想，你认为这有道理吗？

Adam Fishman: Yeah.

亚当·菲什曼：是的。

I think it's very helpful.

我认为这很有帮助。

And the reason I think it's helpful is because I do think it's easy to walk away from onboarding because there's so many other things to work on and to lose sight of the fact this is such a critical part of the experience.

我认为这很有帮助的原因是，我确实认为很容易放弃入职，因为还有很多其他事情需要处理，而忽视了这是体验中如此重要的一部分这一事实。

And I don't know how many times I've come into a company and they're like, "Yeah, we built that a long time ago and we've never looked at it again.

我不知道有多少次我进入一家公司，他们会说，“是的，我们很久以前就建立了它，我们再也没有看过它。

It's been a few years, but we're really having a real problem with retention and people dropping off in the first seven days." And I'm like, "Yeah, I think it's time we take another look at the onboarding experience.

已经过去几年了，但我们确实遇到了保留率和前 7 天内人员流失的真正问题。”我想，“是的，我认为我们是时候重新审视一下入职体验了。

Products change quite a bit.

产品变化很大。

Maybe people are getting something that's different than they expect, or maybe we know a lot more that we can use to influence decisions that they make."

也许人们得到的东西与他们期望的不同，或者也许我们知道更多可以用来影响他们做出的决定。”

Adam Fishman: So I do think it is beneficial to have that team, or at least a team, that part of their job is the activation experience and therefore some part of their roadmap is working on onboarding and then other aspects of activation.

Adam Fishman：所以我确实认为拥有这样一个团队，或者至少是一个团队，他们的部分工作就是激活体验，因此他们的路线图的一部分是致力于入职以及激活的其他方面。

So it may not be what they work on 12 months out of the year, but maybe for a quarter or two in a given year.

因此，这可能不是他们一年中 12 个月的工作内容，但可能是一年中的一两个季度。

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

And there's a LinkedIn post you wrote with a bunch of examples of onboarding work you've done.

您在 LinkedIn 上发表了一篇帖子，其中包含大量您已完成的入职工作示例。

So we're going to include them in the show notes for folks that are-

因此，我们将把它们包含在节目笔记中，供以下人员使用：

Lenny: ...

莱尼：……

hoping for more examples.

希望有更多例子。

Yeah.

是的。

Okay.

好的。

Third topic, final topic is around company selection and evaluating where to work.

第三个主题，最后一个主题是围绕公司选择和评估工作地点。

And you have this really cool framework that I think you call PMF for candidates.

你们有一个非常酷的框架，我认为你们称之为候选人 PMF。

Can you talk about what that is and then we'll get into it a little bit?

你能谈谈那是什么，然后我们再深入探讨一下吗？

Adam Fishman: Yeah.

亚当·菲什曼：是的。

I somehow stumbled on that name and it just made sense because of the acronym.

我不知何故偶然发现了这个名字，它只是因为缩写而有意义。

But I think I was really motivated to revisit this because as we know in tech there's been a ton of layoffs and very public layoffs because of the economy, the state of funding, things like that.

但我认为我确实有动力重新审视这个问题，因为正如我们所知，在科技领域，由于经济、资金状况等原因，出现了大量裁员和非常公开的裁员。

And I don't think we're done yet.

我认为我们还没有完成。

I think we're pretty far from being done.

我认为我们还远未完成。

But it's really important, and I've been burned by this a few times, to put some power back in the hands of the people who are actually seeking the jobs to understand what are some criteria that are important and these are the criteria that are important to me that help you make decisions about which company I should join, assuming they'll have me.

但这真的很重要，我已经被这件事烧伤过几次了，把一些权力交还给那些真正在寻找工作的人，让他们了解哪些标准是重要的，这些标准对我来说很重要，可以帮助你决定我应该加入哪家公司，假设他们会录用我。

And so the PMF acronym, and we're all familiar with product-market fit, right?

PMF 缩写，我们都熟悉产品市场契合度，对吧？

Adam Fishman: So in a way it's both the product-market fit for as a candidate with the company, but then also PMF stands for people, mission and financials.

Adam Fishman：所以在某种程度上，它既是适合公司候选人的产品市场，也是 PMF 代表人员、使命和财务。

And these are my three criteria.

这是我的三个标准。

They may not be yours, Lenny, or they might not be the average person on the street, but the point is that you should have a set of criteria that you are unapologetically rigorous around and you should learn how to evaluate companies against that set of criteria.

他们可能不是你的，莱尼，或者他们可能不是街上的普通人，但关键是你应该有一套毫无歉意地严格的标准，并且你应该学习如何根据这套标准来评估公司。

First, I guess I'll tell you what by people, mission and financials.

首先，我想我会通过人员、使命和财务来告诉你什么。

Adam Fishman: So people are these folks that I am going to enjoy working with everyday that I'm going to be able to have hard conversations with, that I'm going to be able to disagree with and work through those disagreements and feel better on the other side of that productive disagreement, for example, and get to resolutions.

亚当·菲什曼（Adam Fishman）：所以，我每天都喜欢与这些人一起工作，我能够与他们进行艰难的对话，我能够表达不同意见并解决这些分歧，并且在富有成效的分歧的另一方感觉更好，并达成解决方案。

What do I think about my peer set, the leaders, the people below me, if that's the role I'm stepping into, et cetera.

我对我的同事、领导者、我下面的人（如果这是我要扮演的角色）有什么看法？

So that's the people dimension.

这就是人的维度。

Adam Fishman: Mission, which is critically important for me, is that if I join a company and I do my job, which often involves growing that company really big, getting a lot of customers, generating a lot of demand and retention and stuff, I want to make sure that a lot of people have a better outcome in life because of that company's existence.

Adam Fishman：使命对我来说至关重要，那就是如果我加入一家公司并做好我的工作，这通常涉及将公司发展壮大，获得大量客户，产生大量需求和保留率等，我想确保很多人因为该公司的存在而获得更好的生活。

And I don't just mean employees and founders having a good financial outcome, which I think is important.

我不仅仅指员工和创始人拥有良好的财务成果，我认为这很重要。

But I also mean in the case of creators on Patreon, we were building a new way for creators to make money, which they could then use to hire people, create more jobs, make better content, and live their life in a sustainable way so that they weren't a starving artist and they weren't living paycheck to paycheck.

但我的意思是，就 Patreon 上的创作者而言，我们正在为创作者建立一种新的赚钱方式，然后他们可以用这种方式来雇用人员、创造更多就业机会、制作更好的内容，并以可持续的方式过上自己的生活，这样他们就不再是一个挨饿的艺术家，也不再靠薪水过活。

So that's really important, the mission aspect, that's got to exist.

所以这非常重要，使命方面，它必须存在。

Adam Fishman: And then the third one is, and I think really important now is this idea of financials or fiscal discipline.

亚当·菲什曼：第三个是，我认为现在真正重要的是财务或财政纪律的想法。

You've got a lot of companies who raised boatloads of money or did financial planning during the peak of the pandemic and assumed that their business was going to continue operating at the pace that it was operating forever.

有很多公司在大流行高峰期间筹集了大量资金或进行了财务规划，并假设他们的业务将继续以永远运营的速度运营。

A lot of those companies are running out of money, they've seen a hit to demand and they've had to lay people off as a result or make really big strategic swings.

许多这样的公司都快没钱了，他们的需求受到了打击，因此不得不裁员或做出重大的战略调整。

Adam Fishman: There are plenty of companies that you're not really hearing about that were more conservative in their approach, that understood and were able to look into the future and be really responsible with their money.

Adam Fishman：有很多你没有真正听说过的公司，他们的做法更加保守，他们了解并能够展望未来，并对自己的资金真正负责。

And those people are not laying off employees.

这些人并没有解雇员工。

And so they're not all over LinkedIn talking about it because they're not laying people off.

因此，他们并没有在 LinkedIn 上到处谈论这件事，因为他们并没有裁员。

There's no hashtag layoff for them.

他们不会被裁员。

So that's what by financials.

这就是财务方面的情况。

And so that's the PMF framework and evaluating across those dimensions is super important.

这就是 PMF 框架，跨这些维度进行评估非常重要。

I've done it two times in the last 10 to 15 years, and I've done it poorly, two times in the last 15 years.

我在过去10到15年里做过两次，而且我做得很差，在过去15年里做过两次。

And Lyft and Patreon are two times where I've done it really well.

Lyft 和 Patreon 是我两次做得很好的地方。

Wyzant and Imperfect Foods are two times where I personally don't think I've done a good enough job evaluating.

Wyzant 和 Imperfect Foods 是两次我个人认为我没有做得足够好的评估工作。

Adam Fishman: Any time where I've shortcutted my criteria, where I've settled for two out of three, or thought one was great, when really it wasn't, has not ended well for me, for the company, it's not that the company imploded, but I found myself out of a job or really frustrated and burned out or something like that.

亚当·菲什曼：每当我缩短了自己的标准，我满足于三分之二，或者认为其中一个很好，但实际上并非如此，对我和公司来说，结局都不是很好，不是公司崩溃了，而是我发现自己失业了，或者真的很沮丧，精疲力尽，或者类似的事情。

I already talked about the Wyzant example where we had to lay off a bunch of people because the founders expected something very different than what I expected to be able to deliver, that's a big people miss.

我已经谈到了 Wyzant 的例子，我们不得不解雇一群人，因为创始人期望的东西与我期望能够交付的东西非常不同，这是一个很大的人们怀念。

And Imperfect Foods was somewhat similar, amazing mission, really great financial strategy, fantastic CFO, but a lot of infighting at the C-suite.

Imperfect Foods 也有些类似，有着令人惊叹的使命、非常出色的财务战略、出色的首席财务官，但高管层却存在很多内讧。

And it made it really difficult for us to plan and move the company forward together because people were at odds with each other all the time and not resolving disagreements productively.

这让我们很难共同规划和推动公司前进，因为人们之间总是存在分歧，无法有效地解决分歧。

And when that happens, it's hard to be a product or a growth leader because you bear the brunt of the angst that people have.

当这种情况发生时，你就很难成为产品或增长的领导者，因为你首当其冲地承受着人们的焦虑。

So anyway, so those are a couple examples and some of the characteristics of PMF.

无论如何，这些是几个例子以及 PMF 的一些特征。

Lenny: In the case of Imperfect Foods, what could you have done to have avoided that issue and seen if it was true PMF?

Lenny：就 Imperfect Foods 而言，您可以采取什么措施来避免这个问题并看看它是否是真正的 PMF？

Adam Fishman: I would have tried to observe the inner workings of the C-Suite a little bit more closely before I accepted an offer to join the company.

Adam Fishman：在接受加入公司的邀请之前，我会尝试更仔细地观察最高管理层的内部运作。

I would've attended an executive meeting or joined them on an offsite.

我会参加高管会议或在异地参加他们的会议。

And I think, too often, candidates don't feel like they can ask for those things.

我认为，很多时候，候选人觉得自己不能要求这些东西。

And it's true, if you're entering the C-suite, you're going to ask for more stuff, you're more experienced.

确实，如果你要进入最高管理层，你会要求更多的东西，你会更有经验。

But I also think that's true of a junior employee.

但我也认为对于初级员工来说也是如此。

You can observe a team meeting, you can observe a product review and understand, you sign an NDA, you promise you won't tell anybody about it, but observe what is happening and the dynamics of that room.

你可以观察团队会议，你可以观察产品审查并了解，你签署保密协议，你保证不会告诉任何人，但观察正在发生的事情和那个房间的动态。

Who's doing the talking?

谁在说话？

How feedback is delivered, is it constructive?

反馈如何提供，是否具有建设性？

Is it antagonistic, et cetera.

是否具有对抗性等等。

So you can observe and then you can also ask questions.

所以你可以观察，然后你也可以提出问题。

Adam Fishman: So questions that I like to ask are, tell me about the last strategic offsite that you had as a leadership team.

Adam Fishman：所以我想问的问题是，告诉我您作为领导团队的最后一次战略异地行动。

Where do people disagree?

人们哪里不同意？

What was one thing that they disagreed on and where did you end up on that point and how did you get there?

他们在哪一件事上存在分歧？您在这一点上的结论如何？您是如何达到这一点的？

And I actually ask them to tell me, it's like a reverse behavioral interview question.

我实际上要求他们告诉我，这就像一个反向行为面试问题。

I ask them to tell me how they navigated it, and I will ask the CEO that and really dig in on that particular set of questions.

我请他们告诉我他们是如何应对的，我会询问首席执行官，并真正深入研究这组特定的问题。

Those are the things that I do to evaluate the people dimension, which is one of the hardest, I will say.

这些是我评估人员维度所做的事情，我会说这是最难的事情之一。

Financials and mission a little easier to evaluate, but people really require getting to know teams.

财务和使命更容易评估，但人们确实需要了解团队。

So it is hard.

所以这很难。

Lenny: That's such a good question to ask.

莱尼：这是一个很好的问题。

And your point is you can ask that even if you're not a senior leader, you're just ICPM joining a team.

你的观点是，即使你不是高级领导者，你也只是加入 ICPM 团队。

Is there anything else you think folks can do?

您认为人们还能做些什么吗？

So you said, join some offsites maybe, ask this question that you shared, any other tips for folks just to understand if the people are a good fit?

所以你说，也许加入一些异地，问你分享的这个问题，还有其他建议可以帮助人们了解这些人是否合适吗？

Because it's pretty wild.

因为它非常狂野。

You're going to spend so much time with these people and you meet them once in a half hour interview and then you have to decide if that's your life for the next four or five, 10 years.

你会花很多时间和这些人在一起，在半小时的采访中见到他们一次，然后你必须决定这是否就是你未来四年、五年、十年的生活。

Adam Fishman: Well, one thing that I would say is, you're an investor, right?

Adam Fishman：嗯，我想说的一件事是，你是一名投资者，对吧？

You invest in a lot of companies, you're an angel investor and you have the Airbnb syndicate and things like that.

你投资了很多公司，你是天使投资人，你还有爱彼迎财团等等。

You evaluate companies when you're making an investment decision, right?

当你做出投资决定时，你会评估公司，对吗？

Because you're investing a sum of money into that company.

因为你正在向那家公司投资一笔钱。

And so as a result, you do a lot of diligence on companies or read other people's diligence, something like that.

因此，你对公司进行了大量的尽职调查，或者阅读其他人的尽职调查，诸如此类。

When you're interviewing at a company, you are actually investing an even more scarce resource.

当你去一家公司面试时，你实际上是在投资一种更加稀缺的资源。

You're investing your time.

你正在投资你的时间。

There is no way to get more time.

没有办法获得更多时间。

We're all on a finite clock.

我们都在有限的时钟上。

You can always get more money.

你总是可以获得更多的钱。

If you make a bad investment decision, "Okay, we lost there." Provided you didn't bankrupt yourself.

如果你做出了错误的投资决定，“好吧，我们就输了。”前提是你自己没有破产。

Even if you did, you can climb out of bankruptcy.

即使你这样做了，你也可以摆脱破产。

There are things that you can do, but time is fleeting.

有些事情你可以做，但时间转瞬即逝。

Adam Fishman: And so one of the other things, and this is a thing that you do when you're an investor, is you do back channel references, right?

Adam Fishman：那么，作为投资者，你要做的另一件事就是进行反向渠道参考，对吗？

A company is going to back channel, you the employee, if they're a good company, they're going to talk, if you and I had worked together, Lenny, they might say, "Hey, let me get in touch with Lenny and see what it was really like working with Adam instead of what Adam tells me in the interview process." And you're going to do this as an investor in a company.

一家公司会通过后台渠道，你作为员工，如果他们是一家好公司，他们会谈论，如果你和我一起工作，莱尼，他们可能会说，“嘿，让我与莱尼取得联系，看看与亚当一起工作到底是什么样的，而不是亚当在面试过程中告诉我的。”你将作为一家公司的投资者来这样做。

"Let me talk to some people who passed on investing in this company.

“让我和一些放弃投资这家公司的人谈谈。

What did they see that I don't see?"

他们看到了什么我没有看到的事情？”

Adam Fishman: And so in this case, you can talk to current or former employees who are not on the interview circuit.

Adam Fishman：在这种情况下，您可以与不在面试范围内的现任或前任员工交谈。

And because they are not on the interview circuit, their role as a salesperson in the process is greatly diminished.

而且由于他们不参加面试，他们在这个过程中作为销售人员的作用就大大减弱了。

And they can, especially if they're not at the company anymore, give you some pretty candid feedback on what it's like to work there.

他们可以给你一些非常坦诚的反馈，告诉你在那里工作的感受，特别是如果他们已经不在公司了。

So I'll give you a really good example.

所以我会给你一个非常好的例子。

That was super impressive.

那真是太令人印象深刻了。

A PM who worked for me at Patreon, who you know Tal Raviv-

一位在 Patreon 为我工作的 PM，你认识塔尔·拉维夫 (Tal Raviv)——

Adam Fishman: Shout out to Tal, who works on this product that we're recording on right now-

Adam Fishman：向 Tal 致敬，他正在开发我们现在正在录制的产品 -

Adam Fishman: ...

亚当·菲什曼：...

when he interviewed at Patreon, he asked me for a list of people who I had managed in the past, and he contacted them to talk to them about what it was like to work for me.

当他在 Patreon 面试时，他向我索要一份我过去管理过的人的名单，然后他联系了他们，与他们谈论为我工作的感受。

That was the first time that had actually ever happened in my career.

这是我职业生涯中第一次真正发生这种情况。

And I was happy to share that with him.

我很高兴与他分享这一点。

And it represented to me a great level of thoughtfulness and insight around him evaluating what he was getting himself into.

对我来说，这代表了他对自己正在从事的事情的高度深思熟虑和洞察力。

And he was an ICPM and he asked that of me, who was a VP executive level person at the company.

他是 ICPM，他问我，我是公司的副总裁执行级别的人。

Adam Fishman: So you can do that.

Adam Fishman：所以你可以这么做。

And if a company says no or a person says no, I think that actually says a bit more about them than anything else.

如果一家公司拒绝或一个人拒绝，我认为这实际上比其他任何事情都更能说明他们的情况。

If they're trying to withhold that from you.

如果他们试图向你隐瞒这一点。

Because why would you?

因为你为什么要这么做？

If I'm a great manager, I'm happy to have you talk to people who I've managed before, even people maybe who I had to let go or something like that, right?

如果我是一名出色的经理，我很高兴让你与我以前管理过的人交谈，甚至是我不得不放弃的人或类似的人，对吧？

I'm confident that those were the right decisions and that those people ended up in a better place and they were taken care of with great care.

我相信这些都是正确的决定，这些人最终会到一个更好的地方，并且得到很好的照顾。

I would actually make a reference of somebody who I have let go before just so that someone could get a real honest truth of what it was like working with me.

实际上，我会提到我之前解雇过的某个人，这样别人就可以真正诚实地了解与我一起工作的感受。

So anyways, that's my take on PMF and questions to ask.

无论如何，这就是我对 PMF 的看法和要问的问题。

Lenny: I imagine you have PMF with your current world, so maybe just to close, can you just remind folks what you're up to now and where they can find you online and also how listeners can be useful to you?

Lenny：我想你对当前的世界有 PMF，所以也许只是为了结束，你能提醒人们你现在在做什么吗？他们可以在网上找到你，以及听众如何对你有用？

Adam Fishman: First, thanks for having me on, Lenny.

Adam Fishman：首先，感谢您接受我的采访，Lenny。

This was super fun.

这太有趣了。

I love talking about this stuff and it was great chatting with you.

我喜欢谈论这些东西，和你聊天真是太棒了。

So thanks again for having me.

再次感谢您邀请我。

Adam Fishman: There are a few ways to get in touch with me.

Adam Fishman：可以通过多种方式与我联系。

You can follow me and communicate with me on Twitter.

您可以在 Twitter 上关注我并与我交流。

My Twitter handle is Fishman, F-I-S-H-M-A-N AF.

我的 Twitter 账号是 Fishman，F-I-S-H-M-A-N AF。

And I do respond to messages provided that they're polite.

只要消息有礼貌，我就会回复。

And you can also find me on LinkedIn.

您还可以在 LinkedIn 上找到我。

Those are the two platforms I live on most frequently, for better or for worse.

无论好坏，这是我最常使用的两个平台。

And then I now have this newsletter, fishmanafnewsletter.com.

然后我现在有了这份时事通讯，fishmanafnewsletter.com。

And a lot of what we talked about today are things that I am publishing in written form on that newsletter and plan to continue publishing going forward.

我们今天讨论的很多内容都是我在该时事通讯上以书面形式发布的内容，并计划继续发布。

And again, it was inspired by the work that you're doing, Lenny.

再说一遍，它的灵感来自于你正在做的工作，莱尼。

Adam Fishman: So how can people be helpful to me?

Adam Fishman：那么人们可以如何帮助我呢？

I think certainly subscribing to the newsletter and joining that community, telling me about the things that are challenging to them so that I can find ways of finding how they meet up with my interests and translating them into written pieces.

我认为订阅时事通讯并加入该社区，告诉我对他们来说具有挑战性的事情，这样我就可以找到方法来找到他们如何满足我的兴趣，并将其转化为书面文章。

And then if you're ever interested in exploring an advisory relationship with me or learning more what that looks like, reach out.

然后，如果您有兴趣探索与我的咨询关系或了解更多内容，请联系我。

I'd love to meet you.

我很想认识你。

Advisory work is what pays the bills right now, and my kids need to eat.

现在，咨询工作就是我们的收入来源，我的孩子们也需要吃饭。

I probably need to eat a little less, but my kids need to eat.

我可能需要少吃一点，但我的孩子们需要吃。

So reach out about an advisory relationship if you're looking for some help on growth or product or general company building.

因此，如果您正在寻求有关增长、产品或一般公司建设的帮助，请联系咨询关系。

It's what I do.

这就是我所做的。

Lenny: Adam, you're so full of insights and lessons, and I'm so happy that you've started writing and sharing a lot of these things.

莱尼：亚当，你充满了见解和教训，我很高兴你开始撰写和分享很多这些东西。

Folks should definitely subscribe.

人们绝对应该订阅。

Fishmanafnewsletter.com.

Fishmanafnewsletter.com。

Adam, thank you for being here.

亚当，谢谢你来到这里。

Adam Fishman: Yeah, thanks a lot, Lenny.

Adam Fishman：是的，非常感谢，莱尼。

This was awesome.

这太棒了。

Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcast、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。