Feeling stuck? Here's how to know when it's time to leave your job | Ada Chen Rekhi

Ada Chen Rekhi: It's a terrible outcome to wake up one day and be late career and feel trapped because you have a certain lifestyle or a certain expectations of the people around you that you have to go work this job, but then you look at yourself in the mirror and you're not happy going in there.

Ada Chen Rekhi：有一天醒来，事业迟到，感觉自己被困住了，这是一个可怕的结果，因为你有某种生活方式，或者周围的人对你有某种期望，你必须去从事这份工作，但当你看着镜子里的自己，你并不高兴进入那里。

I think that's a terrible trap that we should all try to avoid as we navigate our career paths and find the thing that's most optimal for us.

我认为这是一个可怕的陷阱，我们在探索职业道路并找到最适合我们的事情时都应该尽力避免。

Which is usually a mix of career success, but also meaningfulness and alignment in the work that we're doing with our values.

这通常是事业成功的结合，也是我们所做工作的意义和与我们价值观的一致性。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast, where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard experiences building and growing today's most successful products.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客，我在其中采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，从他们构建和发展当今最成功产品的艰辛经验中学习。

Today my guest is Ada Chen Rekhi.

今天我的嘉宾是陈瑞希。

Ada is an executive coach and also the co-founder of a product called Notejoy.

Ada 是一名高管教练，也是 Notejoy 产品的联合创始人。

In her coaching practice, she focuses on helping founders scale themselves.

在她的辅导实践中，她专注于帮助创始人扩大规模。

Before starting her company, she was senior vice president of marketing at SurveyMonkey.

在创办公司之前，她曾担任 SurveyMonkey 的营销高级副总裁。

Before that, she started a contact management startup that was acquired by LinkedIn where she ended up leading LinkedIn's marketing efforts for their growth team.

在此之前，她创办了一家联系人管理初创公司，该公司被 LinkedIn 收购，最终领导 LinkedIn 增长团队的营销工作。

Two fun facts about Ada.

关于艾达的两个有趣的事实。

One, she started her current company with her husband, which we chat about whether that's a good idea or not.

第一，她和丈夫一起创办了现在的公司，我们讨论这是否是一个好主意。

Also, her brother is Andrew Chen of a16z fame.

另外，她的哥哥是a16z出名的Andrew Chen。

In our conversation, it explains how to make better decisions with a framework she calls Curiosity Loops.

在我们的对话中，它解释了如何使用她称之为“好奇心循环”的框架做出更好的决策。

Lenny: We do a live exercise around my own personal values.

莱尼：我们围绕我自己的个人价值观进行现场练习。

She shares a bunch of advice on how to intentionally and practically build your early career path.

她分享了一系列关于如何有意识地、切实地构建你的早期职业道路的建议。

How to thrive as a woman in Silicon Valley, when to get a coach and what you can do on your own without one and a ton more.

作为一名女性如何在硅谷茁壮成长，何时找一位教练，以及在没有太多教练的情况下你可以自己做些什么。

Enjoy this episode with Ada Chen Rekhi after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短致辞后，请与 Ada Chen Rekhi 一起欣赏这一集。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Sprig.

莱尼：这一集是斯普里格给你带来的。

Next generation product teams like, Robinhood, Notion and Loom rely on Sprig to uncover blind spots in their product development process.

Robinhood、Notion 和 Loom 等下一代产品团队依靠 Sprig 来发现产品开发过程中的盲点。

Sprig let's product teams collect user insights fast, allowing you to better understand why users take certain actions and how they feel about the experience.

Sprig 让产品团队快速收集用户洞察，让您更好地了解用户为何采取某些操作以及他们对体验的感受。

One of the things I love most about Sprig is that they're all about getting product teams the specific insights they need in the timeframe that they need it.

我最喜欢 Sprig 的事情之一是，它们致力于让产品团队在需要的时间范围内获得他们需要的具体见解。

Lenny: As of today's, Sprig is making that even easier with the new and improved templates library.

Lenny：截至今天，Sprig 通过新的和改进的模板库使这一切变得更加容易。

On this podcast, you've heard a lot about how useful templates are for companies as they grow.

在这个播客中，您已经听说了很多关于模板对于公司成长过程中的有用之处。

Sprig partnered with some of the top product teams and product thinkers to build proven playbooks, specifically to solve the biggest challenges facing product teams today from how to optimize an existing feature to improving a conversion flow to troubleshooting drop off.

Sprig 与一些顶级产品团队和产品思想家合作，构建了经过验证的剧本，专门解决当今产品团队面临的最大挑战，从如何优化现有功能到改进转换流程，再到故障排除。

Sprig helps you build better products.

Sprig 帮助您打造更好的产品。

Sprig now has a library of more than 85 templates that you can use to get started collecting user insights quickly right in your app.

Sprig 现在拥有超过 85 个模板的库，您可以使用它们开始在应用程序中快速收集用户见解。

I especially love that Sprig builds templates specifically for product teams, and I was really excited when they ask me to create a template around product sense.

我特别喜欢 Sprig 专门为产品团队构建模板，当他们要求我围绕产品感创建一个模板时，我真的很兴奋。

Lenny: One of the questions they get most is how to develop your product sense.

Lenny：他们问得最多的问题之一是如何培养你的产品意识。

So I decided to build a playbook along with Sprig on how to do that based on my experience at Airbnb and from what I've learned interviewing top product folks like, Jules Walter who wrote a whole guest post on how to build your product sense.

因此，我决定与 Sprig 一起根据我在 Airbnb 的经验以及我采访顶级产品人士（例如 Jules Walter）的经验，编写一本关于如何做到这一点的剧本，Jules Walter 写了一篇关于如何建立产品意识的客座文章。

Explore my product sense playbook and the entire Sprig templates library and build better products faster.

探索我的产品意识手册和整个 Sprig 模板库，更快地构建更好的产品。

Check it out today at sprig.com/templates.

今天就在 sprig.com/templates 上查看。

That's S-P-R-I-G.com/templates.

那是 S-P-R-I-G.com/templates。

Ada, welcome to the podcast.

艾达，欢迎来到播客。

Ada Chen Rekhi: Thanks.

艾达·陈瑞希：谢谢。

I'm excited to be here.

我很高兴来到这里。

Lenny: So I've heard such great things about you from a lot of people, including a bunch of guests that have been on the podcast.

莱尼：所以我从很多人那里听到了关于你的伟大的事情，包括一群参加播客的嘉宾。

And you also have this really great event diagram of maybe an ideal guest for the podcast.

你还有这个非常棒的事件图，可能是播客的理想嘉宾。

You've done growth.

你已经完成了成长。

You've done products.

你已经做过产品了。

You've started a company.

你已经创办了一家公司。

You're also an executive coach to founders.

您也是创始人的执行教练。

So there's a variety of topics I'm excited to begin too.

因此，我也很高兴开始讨论各种各样的主题。

So thanks again for being here.

再次感谢您来到这里。

Lenny: An interesting thing that I'll start with is that when we were chatting about what to focus on in our conversation, where you're emailing about this, and you did something that I thought was really interesting.

莱尼：我首先要讲的一件有趣的事情是，当我们讨论谈话中要关注的内容时，你在哪里通过电子邮件发送了有关此问题的信息，并且你做了一些我认为非常有趣的事情。

You ran something called a Curiosity Loop where you pinged a bunch of your friends and asked them for input in this really structured way.

你运行了一个名为“好奇心循环”的程序，你向一群朋友发出了 ping 信号，并以这种真正结构化的方式要求他们提供意见。

So I thought I'd start there.

所以我想我应该从那里开始。

Could you just share what this process is, so that we can learn how to maybe do it ourselves, this idea of a curiosity loop?

您能否分享一下这个过程是什么，以便我们可以学习如何自己做，这种好奇心循环的想法？

Ada Chen Rekhi: A curiosity loop is essentially going to a whole bunch of people.

Ada Chen Rekhi：好奇心循环本质上是针对一大群人的。

In this case, I sent out an email very quickly to about 10 or 11 people and asking them, "Hey, here are nine topics for Lenny's Podcast.

在这种情况下，我很快向大约 10 或 11 个人发送了一封电子邮件，并询问他们，“嘿，这里有莱尼播客的九个主题。

What are two or three of the topics that resonate with you and why?" And I got back such an incredible amount of information for about 20 minutes of work.

其中哪两三个话题引起了您的共鸣？为什么？”经过大约 20 分钟的工作，我得到了如此多的信息。

I don't normally do this, but I actually showed you some of the anonymized feedback from people really just talking about what resonated and what didn't.

我通常不会这样做，但我实际上向您展示了一些来自人们的匿名反馈，他们只是谈论什么引起了共鸣，什么没有引起共鸣。

So I came out of it just so much smarter, and curiosity loops are my method of doing so.

所以我变得更加聪明，而好奇心循环就是我这样做的方法。

Lenny: Often, people ask friends for advice on just like, "Hey, what should I do here?

莱尼：人们经常向朋友寻求建议，比如“嘿，我应该在这里做什么？

What can I maybe talk about on this podcast?" Your approach had a lot of structure to it.

我可以在这个播客上谈论什么？”你的方法有很多结构。

So maybe two questions just like, what is the actual structure to this concept?

所以也许有两个问题，比如这个概念的实际结构是什么？

And then two, just people...

然后两个人，只是人……

You can often ask friends for advice, but you also don't want to over bug them with questions.

您可以经常向朋友寻求建议，但您也不想用问题过多地打扰他们。

How do you think about just not over asking everyone questions all the time, but all decisions you want to make?

你如何看待不要总是问每个人问题，而​​是要做出所有你想做的决定？

So I guess the question is, when do you use this versus just not?

所以我想问题是，你什么时候使用这个，什么时候不使用？

Ada Chen Rekhi: I think that there are heavyweight and lightweight ways to use this.

Ada Chen Rekhi：我认为有重量级和轻量级的方法来使用它。

So the heavyweight way was what I just exemplified by saying, I sent an email and I made a doc.

所以重量级的方式就是我刚才举例说的，我发送了一封电子邮件并制作了一份文档。

And on the other side, I had all of this really interesting and rich data.

另一方面，我拥有所有这些非常有趣且丰富的数据。

The lightweight way to do this is really just make it your ongoing theme of what you're curious about as you interact with people.

做到这一点的轻量级方法实际上就是让它成为你与人互动时好奇的持续主题。

So maybe it's this thing where every single day as you talk to people, if you have a social topic, you might just bring up the same question over and over again and start looking for are there any differences or surprises in what people are telling you?

因此，也许每天当你与人们交谈时，如果你有一个社交话题，你可能会一遍又一遍地提出同样的问题，并开始寻找人们告诉你的内容是否有任何差异或惊喜？

One of the big reasons why I think curiosity loops are really useful is that it really fights the fact that there's a lot of bad advice out there.

我认为好奇心循环非常有用的一个重要原因是，它确实与存在很多糟糕建议的事实作斗争。

Ada Chen Rekhi: And it's not bad because it's not well-intentioned, but it's bad because it's not contextual.

Ada Chen Rekhi：这并不坏，因为它不是出于善意，但它很糟糕，因为它不符合上下文。

So when someone tells you to quit your job and chase your dreams, or they tell you to sit tight and grind through and build some experience before you go off and go start the company that you've always been thinking about starting, which piece of advice do you actually take?

因此，当有人告诉你辞职去追逐你的梦想，或者他们告诉你要静下心来磨练并积累一些经验，然后再去创办你一直想创办的公司时，你实际上接受了哪一条建议呢？

Right?

正确的？

A lot of it depends on your situation, what you're considering, what skills and experience you actually have, and curiosity loops actually are this way of really thinking about how do you make your advice contextual.

这在很大程度上取决于您的情况、您正在考虑的内容、您实际拥有的技能和经验，而好奇心循环实际上是真正思考如何使您的建议符合上下文的方式。

So I'll break it down a bit in terms of how I think about structuring it.

因此，我将根据我对构建它的想法进行一些分解。

So the first piece of a curiosity loop is really just thinking about asking a good question.

因此，好奇心循环的第一步实际上只是想问一个好问题。

In the time when I was working at SurveyMonkey in the past, I had this opportunity to spend a lot of time with the survey researchers, and we really talked a lot about what makes a question good.

在我过去在 SurveyMonkey 工作的时候，我有机会与调查研究人员一起度过了很多时间，我们真的讨论了很多关于如何使问题变得更好的问题。

Ada Chen Rekhi: So in this case, a question's good if it's specific, if it solicits rationale, and it's not biased.

Ada Chen Rekhi：所以在这种情况下，如果问题是具体的，如果它征求理由并且没有偏见，那就很好。

You don't want to start a question with, here's what I think because people have this tendency to want to please you or to agree with you.

你不想以“这就是我的想法”来开始一个问题，因为人们有这种倾向想要取悦你或同意你的观点。

So a good example...

那么一个很好的例子...

Well, let me start with a bad example of a question.

好吧，让我从一个问题的糟糕例子开始。

A bad example of a question is, what should I do with my career next?

一个不好的例子是，我接下来的职业生涯应该做什么？

It's just such a poorly formed question because it's really vague, it's not specific.

这是一个形式很糟糕的问题，因为它非常模糊，不具体。

It puts a lot of cognitive load on other people, and the output that you're going to get from it is probably going to be similarly bad.

它给其他人带来了很大的认知负担，而你从中得到的输出可能也会同样糟糕。

Garbage in, garbage out.

垃圾进来，垃圾出去。

A better example of a question might be something like, "Hey, you know me.

一个更好的问题示例可能是这样的：“嘿，你认识我。

I'm a marketer.

我是一名营销人员。

I've been thinking about doing this webdev thing.

我一直在考虑做这个 webdev 的事情。

So my plan is to quit my job, do a webdev bootcamp and then go find a job elsewhere.

所以我的计划是辞掉工作，参加一个 webdev 训练营，然后去其他地方找工作。

Do you think that's a good idea?"

你认为这是个好主意吗？”

Ada Chen Rekhi: There's just so much rich data to actually explore with that.

Ada Chen Rekhi：有太多丰富的数据可供实际探索。

First, are you suited to being a developer?

首先，你适合做开发者吗？

Are webdev boot camps effective?

webdev 训练营有效吗？

What's the state of the economy in the hiring market right now for junior web developers?

对于初级网络开发人员来说，目前招聘市场的经济状况如何？

And that's an example of maybe a question that's a little bit more specific and gives people something to anchor on.

这可能是一个更具体的问题的例子，可以给人们一些可以依靠的东西。

So that's the first piece.

这就是第一部分。

The next piece is really around how do you curate who you ask?

下一篇实际上是关于你如何策划你所询问的人？

I think there are two dimensions of this.

我认为这有两个层面。

The first one is the obvious one, which is a subject matter expert who really knows something about the topic at hand.

第一个是显而易见的，这是一位真正了解当前主题的主题专家。

So maybe a webdev themselves, for my example question.

对于我的示例问题，也许是网络开发人员自己。

Another one, and this dimension I think is really important, is someone who knows you really well and can provide insight on how well does that work for you.

另一个，我认为这个维度非常重要，是一个非常了解你并且可以提供关于这对你有多有效的见解的人。

And then after that, you really want to ask the question.

然后，你真的想问这个问题。

And this touches on what you said about how do you make it really lightweight?

这涉及到你所说的如何让它变得真正轻量化？

Ada Chen Rekhi: Ask the question in a way that really gets you a useful constructive answer, but doesn't put too much weight on people.

Ada Chen Rekhi：以一种真正能让你得到有用的建设性答案的方式提出问题，但又不会给别人带来太多的压力。

So what I usually like to do is just make it very lightweight.

所以我通常喜欢做的就是让它变得非常轻量。

So in your case, I said, "Here are nine topics.

因此，就你的情况而言，我说：“这里有九个主题。

Can you pick your top two and tell me why you like them?" Some people went above and beyond and scrolled through and gave me feedback on every single topic.

你能选出你最喜欢的两个并告诉我你为什么喜欢它们吗？”有些人超越了我的要求，滚动浏览并就每个主题向我提供反馈。

Some of them just said, "Here are my top two, and here's one I think you should avoid." I wanted to design it in a way where if you're a busy founder, you're a busy product person, which is the list that I chose for this curiosity loop, you would be able to sit down on your couch at the end of the night, read this interesting email and tap out a quick reply and give me that answer.

他们中的一些人只是说：“这是我最喜欢的两种，这是我认为你应该避免的一种。”我想以一种方式设计它，如果你是一个忙碌的创始人，你是一个忙碌的产品人员，这是我为这个好奇心循环选择的列表，你将能够在晚上结束时坐在沙发上，阅读这封有趣的电子邮件，然后快速回复并给我答案。

Because the risk that you're running is either you're getting poor answers or you're getting a really low response rate because you've given them way too much cognitive load in terms of answering it.

因为你面临的风险是，要么你得到的答案很差，要么你得到的答复率非常低，因为你在回答问题时给了他们太多的认知负担。

Ada Chen Rekhi: And then finally, to close the loop, I think a big piece of it is processing that information and then thanking them for it.

Ada Chen Rekhi：最后，为了结束这个循环，我认为其中很大一部分是处理这些信息，然后感谢他们。

So a big misconception that people have when they're really getting into this work of asking for advice or input from other people in the community is often that it's really one-sided.

因此，当人们真正开始这项向社区中其他人寻求建议或意见的工作时，他们有一个很大的误解，那就是这实际上是片面的。

I'm asking you for help and you're getting nothing out of it.

我向你寻求帮助，但你却一无所获。

The reminder that I would have for all of you is that it feels really good to help someone.

我要提醒大家的是，帮助别人的感觉真的很好。

It feels really good to be heard and give input.

被倾听并提供意见的感觉真的很好。

And a big piece of that is, if someone comes to you and they said, "You gave me this advice, it changed my life.

其中很重要的一点是，如果有人来找你，他们说：“你给了我这个建议，它改变了我的生活。

Maybe it's not at that level, but it really affected my decision and here's how it turned out.

也许它还没有达到那个水平，但它确实影响了我的决定，结果如下。

Thank you so much." That feels so good, especially if you only spent a few minutes giving them the input that enabled them to make a better decision.

非常感谢你。”这种感觉真好，尤其是如果您只花了几分钟的时间向他们提供意见，使他们能够做出更好的决定。

Lenny: So to summarize, I wrote these pieces down.

莱尼：总而言之，我写下了这些文章。

The concept broadly is if you want advice on a decision you're trying to make, pick some friends and this is...

广义上的概念是，如果您想就自己要做的决定寻求建议，请选择一些朋友，这是......

I guess I'll go through the four things you just mentioned.

我想我会讲一下你刚才提到的四件事。

And part two is actually pick the right friends.

第二部分实际上是选择合适的朋友。

But one is just, come up with a question that's specific.

但一是提出一个具体的问题。

As in just like, what should I do with my life?

就像，我的人生应该做什么？

But more, should I take the specific role at the specific company?

但更重要的是，我应该在特定公司担任特定角色吗？

Figure out the people that know you well and maybe have some context on this decision.

找出那些熟悉你的人，或许对你的决定有一些背景。

How many people do you usually email for this sort of thing?

您通常会向多少人发送此类事情的电子邮件？

What's a number?

数字是什么？

Ada Chen Rekhi: I would try to optimize for getting at least three or four responses.

Ada Chen Rekhi：我会尝试优化以获得至少三到四个回复。

It just depends on the nature of the loop.

这仅取决于循环的性质。

And then you think about what is your response rate.

然后你想想你的回复率是多少。

So if you're emailing really busy people that you don't know very well, maybe you would assume that you only get half of people to respond.

因此，如果您向非常忙碌且不太了解的人发送电子邮件，也许您会认为只有一半的人回复。

If you're emailing people really well and it's really lightweight like, yes or no, and here's why, then you might just send out a handful.

如果你给人们发电子邮件的方式非常好，而且内容非常简单，比如“是或否”，这就是原因，那么你可能只会发送一些。

Lenny: Okay, awesome.

莱尼：好的，太棒了。

So it's five to 10 people, broadly sounds like.

听起来大概是 5 到 10 个人。

Oh yeah, you want to make it really quick and easy.

哦，是的，您想让它变得非常快速和简单。

So it's like, here's 10 things, which of these two do you think I should focus on?

所以这就像是，这里有 10 件事，你认为我应该关注这两件事中的哪一件？

So it's a quick ask as something you recommend, and then just thank them for it after you finish.

因此，您可以快速提出建议，然后在完成后感谢他们。

Is that broadly the approach?

这是广泛的方法吗？

Ada Chen Rekhi: Yep, that's the approach.

Ada Chen Rekhi：是的，就是这样。

One thing I want to note is that it's actually really useful for personal things as well.

我想指出的一件事是，它实际上对于个人事物也非常有用。

So we framed it in this professional context of, I'm trying to change a job.

所以我们把它放在这样的专业背景下：我正在尝试换一份工作。

But one example that I have is when we had our daughter who's now three years old, one of the debates that my partner and I were having was how do we actually set up our estate planning in terms of if, God forbids, something happened to both of us.

但我举的一个例子是，当我们有了现在三岁的女儿时，我和我的伴侣正在进行的辩论之一是，如果上帝保佑，如果我们俩都发生了什么事，我们该如何真正制定我们的遗产规划。

How should she inherit the state?

她该如何继承国家？

And my partner was basically saying, "18 years old, she gets everything fully unlocked." I was saying, "Oh, well maybe 25." And we're at this impasse.

我的伴侣基本上是在说，“18 岁了，她就完全解锁了一切。”我说：“哦，也许 25 岁吧。”我们现在陷入了僵局。

And we actually just started to tell each other, why don't we, in our day-to-day conversations with folks that we trust in our family, people that we think are smart, that have kids ask people what their perspective is on it.

实际上，我们刚刚开始告诉彼此，为什么我们不在日常对话中与我们信任的家人、我们认为聪明的人、有孩子的人询问人们对此的看法。

Ada Chen Rekhi: One thing was really telling, no one out of everyone we asked said 18.

Ada Chen Rekhi：有一件事确实很能说明问题，我们询问的所有人中没有人说是 18。

So that really dragged my partner up.

所以这确实拖累了我的搭档。

And then the other thing that was really interesting was that we learned a little bit about executive function and the research around it.

另一件真正有趣的事情是我们了解了一些关于执行功能及其相关研究的知识。

So executive function, which is your ability to make decisions and plans and be thoughtful peaks at the age of 30, and it's all downhill from there.

因此，执行功能，即你做出决定、计划和深思熟虑的能力，在 30 岁时达到顶峰，从那时起就开始走下坡路。

So bad news for people like me that are older.

对于像我这样年纪较大的人来说这是个坏消息。

Lenny: And then I'm getting or game over.

莱尼：然后我就结束了或者游戏结束了。

Ada Chen Rekhi: But if you're thinking about 18, you are so far from your peak.

艾达·陈雷希：但如果你考虑的是 18 岁，那你离巅峰还很远。

So it dragged us both up in terms of what our set point was to make a decision like that.

因此，这让我们双方都陷入了做出这样的决定的设定点。

But we wouldn't have figured that out without a curiosity loop because it's too much work to dig through papers or research or whatever else to try to come to a good decision on it.

但如果没有好奇心循环，我们就无法弄清楚这一点，因为要深入研究论文、研究或其他任何东西来试图做出一个好的决定，需要做太多的工作。

Lenny: So the core lesson here is just, versus just emailing a bunch of people, asking for advice, which I imagine people often do, just what should I do here?

莱尼：所以这里的核心教训就是，与只是给一群人发电子邮件、寻求建议（我想人们经常这样做）相比，我在这里应该做什么？

Creating a little bit of the structure and even calling it a curiosity loop, I bet, helps people feel like they want to be a part of this and participate and help.

我敢打赌，创建一点结构，甚至将其称为好奇心循环，可以帮助人们感觉他们想成为其中的一部分并参与和提供帮助。

Ada Chen Rekhi: Yeah, definitely.

艾达·陈瑞希：是的，当然。

One of the things that I always try to do is I try to explain to people in my ask, here's why I picked you.

我总是尝试做的一件事是我尝试在我的询问中向人们解释，这就是我选择你的原因。

So for example, I picked you because I really trust you to be a sound source of truthful advice and give me some feedback.

举例来说，我选择你是因为我真的相信你能提供真实建议并给我一些反馈。

So I really value that.

所以我真的很重视这一点。

Do you mind spending a couple of minutes and just giving me some thoughts on this?

您介意花几分钟时间给我一些关于这个问题的想法吗？

Lenny: And how often are you pinging people?

莱尼：你多久给别人发一次 ping 信息？

If you're a friend of Ada, are you getting curiosity looped every week, or how often?

如果您是艾达的朋友，您是否每周都会感到好奇，或者多久一次？

What's your rate limit?

您的速率限制是多少？

Ada Chen Rekhi: I usually reserve it for bigger things.

Ada Chen Rekhi：我通常会为更大的事情保留它。

So probably quarterly or anything where I'm having a big debate, and I'm feeling really indecisive.

所以可能是每季度一次或者任何我正在进行激烈辩论的地方，我感觉真的很优柔寡断。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

It also makes me think about this idea of a personal board of directors, and this feels like an asynchronous approach to that concept where instead of a call every, I don't know, quarter month with small group, it's asynchronous.

这也让我思考了个人董事会的想法，这感觉像是该概念的异步方法，而不是每个我不知道的季度月与小组进行一次电话会议，而是异步的。

Here's an ask I have-

这是我的一个问题——

Ada Chen Rekhi: Totally.

陈瑞希：完全可以。

Yep.

是的。

I think this is really based off of the marketing concept of customer advisory councils.

我认为这实际上是基于客户咨询委员会的营销理念。

So when I was working in marketing and product at a startup, one of the things we would always have is a group of our top customers on DM, basically.

因此，当我在一家初创公司从事营销和产品工作时，我们始终拥有的一件事基本上就是 DM 上的一群顶级客户。

And if we had really interesting product conflicts, we would actually just go ping a couple of them and ask them, "Hey, we're debating this.

如果我们确实遇到了有趣的产品冲突，我们实际上只会去询问其中几个并询问他们，“嘿，我们正在讨论这个问题。

Do you mind just giving us your quick thoughts and telling us why?" And then being able to as a marketer come back to the product conversation and say, here is the literal voice of the customer and four or five different verbatims on what people think about this really enabled me as a marketer to have a seat at the table.

您介意直接告诉我们您的想法并告诉我们原因吗？”然后，作为营销人员能够回到产品对话并说，这是客户的真实声音以及人们对此的看法的四到五种不同的逐字记录，这确实使我作为营销人员能够在谈判桌上占有一席之地。

And the insight and the helpfulness of that was really something I wanted to bring to my personal life as well.

我也想将这种洞察力和帮助带入我的个人生活。

Lenny: That's really interesting.

莱尼：这真的很有趣。

It's basically user research for your life.

它基本上是你生活中的用户研究。

User research, you're told don't do what people tell you to do.

用户研究，你被告知不要做人们告诉你做的事情。

I guess it's the same thing here, where it's just like, here's advice and then you end up making the decision for your own own life.

我想这里也是一样的，就像是，这是建议，然后你最终为自己的生活做出决定。

Ada Chen Rekhi: Right.

陈瑞希：对。

Right.

正确的。

Yes.

是的。

That is the big caveat.

这是一个很大的警告。

Don't do what people tell you to do.

不要做人们告诉你做的事。

Take it as an input and look for the hard feedback.

将其作为输入并寻找硬反馈。

Look for things that you strongly disagree with or are surprises to you.

寻找你强烈不同意或令你惊讶的事情。

Because to me, I think these loops are more about looking around the corner and seeing if there's anything you missed in terms of the integrity of your decision making process.

因为对我来说，我认为这些循环更多的是环顾四周，看看你在决策过程的完整性方面是否遗漏了任何东西。

Lenny: Sweet.

莱尼：甜甜的。

You said that people told you what we should not talk about.

你说人们告诉你什么是我们不应该谈论的。

They're like, "Don't cover this." What was in that list?

他们就像是，“不要掩盖这个。”那个清单里有什么？

Ada Chen Rekhi: So I think there were two topics on the list.

Ada Chen Rekhi：所以我认为列表中有两个主题。

The first one, it was just how do you onboard and hire and bring people onto the team?

第一个是如何加入、雇用和带人加入团队？

And the feedback I got there was like, "There's just so many people who have done this.

我得到的反馈是这样的：“有很多人都这么做了。

I'm sure you have some interesting concepts, but I personally wouldn't be that interested in hearing it.

我确信你有一些有趣的概念，但我个人不会有兴趣听到它。

And that was really useful to me.

这对我来说真的很有用。

And then the other one was actually just about being a woman in Silicon Valley and the experience of that.

另一则实际上是关于作为一名硅谷女性及其经历。

I actually had someone write, and you probably read this, Lenny, "No. Stay far away from this.

我实际上有人写了，你可能读过这个，莱尼，“不。远离这个。

There's no winning on this topic."

在这个话题上没有胜利。”

Lenny: Oh, my God.

莱尼：噢，天哪。

Okay, let's touch on that topic rather than, it's going to be great.

好吧，让我们谈谈这个话题，这会很棒。

Ada Chen Rekhi: Yeah.

艾达·陈瑞希：是的。

So let's ignore the advice?

那么我们就忽略这个建议吧？

Lenny: Yeah, let's ignore it.

莱尼：是的，我们忽略它吧。

Before we get to that, I wanted to first talk about you.

在我们开始之前，我想先谈谈你。

You gave me some homework also ahead of this chat.

在这次聊天之前你也给了我一些作业。

And the homework was around helping me figure out values and personal values for myself.

家庭作业是帮助我找出自己的价值观和个人价值观。

I did the exercise.

我做了练习。

So first of all, can you just maybe talk about what this exercise was, and what the goal of it is?

首先，您能否谈谈这个练习是什么以及它的目标是什么？

And then I'll share what I come up with.

然后我将分享我的想法。

Ada Chen Rekhi: So the homework that I gave you is similar homework that I give to everyone that I work with in coaching, and it's this values exercise.

Ada Chen Rekhi：所以我给你的作业与我给与我一起从事教练工作的每个人的作业类似，这就是价值观练习。

It's this 10 to 15 minute exercise where you're presented with a list of words that might encompass potential values.

在这个 10 到 15 分钟的练习中，您将看到可能包含潜在价值的单词列表。

It's pretty lightweight.

它非常轻。

You just go down the list, and you pick out all the words that resonate with you, and then we filter them down into groups of values, and then we filter them down into a stack rank and a list.

你只需沿着列表走下去，选出所有与你产生共鸣的单词，然后我们将它们过滤成值组，然后我们将它们过滤成堆栈排名和列表。

And the output on the end is basically three to five sentences that cover what are the values stack rank that are important to you right now in your personal and professional life?

最后的输出基本上是三到五句话，涵盖了目前在您的个人和职业生活中对您来说重要的价值观堆栈排名是什么？

And what I really like is, it's this internal scorecard of what really matters to you in your decision making process as opposed to the external scorecard of status, money, wealth, how other people perceive you, that often we feel really pressured by.

我真正喜欢的是，在你的决策过程中真正重要的是这种内部记分卡，而不是地位、金钱、财富、其他人如何看待你的外部记分卡，我们常常感到真正的压力。

So it's this great way to look back and see how well do decisions, or how well do my situations in life align with my values?

所以这是回顾过去并看看我的决策做得有多好，或者我的生活状况与我的价值观有多一致的好方法？

Lenny: Sweet.

莱尼：甜甜的。

And what I liked about it is, if someone were to be like, "Hey, come up with your values." I'd be like, "Oh, my God.

我喜欢的是，如果有人说，“嘿，提出你的价值观。”我会说：“哦，天哪。

I'm just sitting here thinking about words and concepts." And it was really helpful because it was basically multiple choice.

我只是坐在这里思考文字和概念。”这真的很有帮助，因为它基本上是多项选择。

Here's all the options across tons of categories, just keep picking and then helps you whittle them down.

这里有大量类别的所有选项，只需继续选择，然后帮助您缩小它们。

I ended up with six.

我最终得到了六个。

I feel like that's one too many.

我感觉这个太多了

Actually, I added a bonus one because it's just one that I really like.

事实上，我添加了一项奖励，因为这只是我真正喜欢的一项。

But should I read through what I came up with?

但我应该仔细阅读我的想法吗？

Lenny: So here's what my values, I guess.

莱尼：我想这就是我的价值观。

Choose adventure, stay optimistic, treat others you want to be treated.

选择冒险，保持乐观，善待别人。

Classic.

经典的。

Keep getting better, act generously.

不断进步，慷慨行事。

And added one that my grandma taught me back in the day that has stuck with me, that had nothing to do with this exercise, but I just wanted to have on this list, which is, first do what you need to do, and then do what you want.

并补充了我奶奶那天教给我的一句话，它一直困扰着我，与这个练习无关，但我只是想在这个清单上，那就是，首先做你需要做的事情，然后做你想做的事情。

Ada Chen Rekhi: I love it.

艾达·陈瑞希：我喜欢。

What a great list of values and what stands out to me from that list too, Lenny, is this idea of achievement or status or success.

莱尼，这是一份多么伟大的价值观清单，对我来说，这份清单中最突出的就是成就、地位或成功的想法。

A lot of the things that we talk about publicly, what your LinkedIn feed might look like don't actually show up in your values.

我们公开谈论的很多事情，比如你的 LinkedIn feed 看起来是什么样子，实际上并没有体现在你的价值观中。

And it must reflect in some of the choices that you've made in your life.

它必须反映在你生活中所做的一些选择中。

Ada Chen Rekhi: Let me ask you this.

陈瑞希：我来问你这个问题。

Let's try to apply some of the values in real time as an experiment.

让我们尝试实时应用一些值作为实验。

Ada Chen Rekhi: If you think about a recent decision that you've had to make or a decision that you're facing coming up, can you share what that decision might be?

Ada Chen Rekhi：如果你想到最近必须做出的决定或即将面临的决定，你能分享一下这个决定可能是什么吗？

And then let's try to apply the values to it to think about if you were living up to these values, what choice would you make and maybe some of the pressures you might feel to choose otherwise.

然后，让我们尝试将这些价值观应用到其中，思考一下如果您符合这些价值观，您会做出什么选择，以及您可能会感到做出其他选择的一些压力。

Lenny: So an ongoing decision I have is I have all these opportunities of things I can be doing.

莱尼：所以我一直在做的一个决定是，我拥有所有这些我可以做的事情的机会。

Additional things I can be doing.

我可以做的其他事情。

The podcast, this actually was a good example of I never wanted to do a podcast because I really wanted to...

播客，这实际上是我从来不想做播客的一个很好的例子，因为我真的很想......

Life is good.

生活是美好的。

I was writing this newsletters, doing great, making a living, doing one great email a week.

我正在写这份时事通讯，做得很好，谋生，每周写一封很棒的电子邮件。

And I was like, "Why would I do anything more?

我当时想，“我为什么还要做更多的事情呢？

This is good." So I've constantly resisted, I resisted the podcast for two to three years, and then eventually succumbed.

这很好。”所以我一直在抵制，抵制播客两三年，最后屈服了。

And it was a great decision in the end.

最终这是一个伟大的决定。

But now, I have other things that I'm trying to not do, but they're always pushing into my mind space like, a book for example.

但现在，我有其他一些我试图不做的事情，但它们总是挤进我的思维空间，比如一本书。

Of course at one point, and I paused that just so I could have more time for the podcast.

当然，在某一时刻，我暂停了这一点，这样我就可以有更多的时间来听播客。

So I guess the decision is just like, what should I say yes to versus say no to?

所以我想这个决定就像是，我应该对什么说“是”，而不是说“不”？

Lenny: I'm looking at my values a little bit, and one of them is choose adventure, which you would think would be just do stuff, just try stuff out.

莱尼：我正在稍微审视一下我的价值观，其中之一就是选择冒险，你可能会认为这只是做事，尝试一下。

But I feel like maybe it's just a missing bullet point here of, I just want to do less.

但我觉得这可能只是这里缺少一个要点，我只是想少做一些。

I'm trying to take on less and do less and cut out and-

我正在尝试少承担、少做事、减少——

Lenny: ...

莱尼：……

simplify.

简化。

Yeah.

是的。

Because there's just endless things I could be doing, and I want to spend time with my wife.

因为我可以做无穷无尽的事情，而且我想和我的妻子共度时光。

And now, my new child is coming in a couple of months, if all goes well.

现在，如果一切顺利的话，我的新孩子几个月后就要出生了。

So that's where my mind goes when you ask that.

所以当你问这个问题时我的想法就是这样。

Ada Chen Rekhi: Yeah.

艾达·陈瑞希：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

And then maybe if you were to decompose adventure, what adventure actually means to you and you go into that word list, you might actually just find that some of these opportunities like writing a book, at some point, it doesn't feel like an adventure.

然后也许如果你要分解冒险，冒险对你来说到底意味着什么，然后你进入那个单词列表，你实际上可能会发现其中一些机会比如写一本书，在某些时候，它感觉不像一场冒险。

Lenny: Right.

莱尼：对。

That's so true.

确实如此。

The beginning of it is an adventure.

它的开始是一场冒险。

And then that's such a good point because yeah, once you start a thing...

这是一个很好的观点，因为是的，一旦你开始做一件事......

Something I always say about this content creation life is like, it's easy to start.

关于内容创作生活，我总是说，它很容易开始。

It's hard to keep it going, and it becomes just this treadmill of just, you have to keep creating awesome stuff basically for the rest of your life.

很难让它继续下去，它就变成了一个跑步机，你必须在你的余生中继续创造很棒的东西。

I don't know how you get off the treadmill.

我不知道你是如何从跑步机上下来的。

Not that I'm complaining, but that's just a reality of this path.

我并不是在抱怨，但这就是这条道路的现实。

So that is such a good point that it becomes not adventurous very quickly.

所以这是一个很好的观点，所以它不会很快变得冒险。

So that's really interesting.

这真的很有趣。

Lenny: I guess the other thing is just, what's a cutoff?

莱尼：我想另一件事就是，什么是截止点？

What am I...

我是什么...

I do a bunch of angel investing and so I'm thinking about just stopping that for a while just so I get up more time with my new child and just carve out things that maybe aren't as essential.

我做了很多天使投资，所以我正在考虑暂时停止这种投资，这样我就有更多时间陪伴我的新孩子，并做一些可能不那么重要的事情。

Ada Chen Rekhi: So on the values exercise, I think what you've done a really good job of is just really delineating, here are some examples of choices that you have to make.

Ada Chen Rekhi：所以在价值观练习上，我认为你做得很好的只是真正的描述，这里有一些你必须做出的选择的例子。

I think that there are some points in our lives where writing a book, it just seems really obvious.

我认为，在我们的生活中，有些时候写一本书似乎是显而易见的。

It's good for your career.

这对你的职业生涯有好处。

It's the next level in terms of where you go from the community, the newsletter, the podcast and getting to that next level.

就您从社区、时事通讯、播客到下一个级别的去向而言，这是一个新的级别。

But where I think there is value is these lists of values can help ground us from those obvious decisions.

但我认为有价值的是，这些价值观列表可以帮助我们摆脱那些显而易见的决定。

So in my life, to share a mini example of this, there have been a lot of cases where the next obvious step for me might be to go an executive at a big company and to go chase the dream and continue on the latter climb of my career.

因此，在我的生活中，分享一个小例子，在很多情况下，对我来说，下一个明显的步骤可能是成为一家大公司的高管，去追逐梦想，继续我职业生涯的后期攀登。

Ada Chen Rekhi: As I've examined my own personal values, a big piece of it has really been around prioritizing relationships and really pursuing knowledge and growth on my own terms.

Ada Chen Rekhi：当我审视自己的个人价值观时，其中很大一部分实际上是围绕优先考虑人际关系以及真正按照自己的方式追求知识和成长。

And things like independence and autonomy have started to creep up over time, especially once I started a family.

随着时间的推移，独立和自治之类的事情开始悄然兴起，尤其是在我组建了家庭之后。

It became very clear to me that sometimes the external scorecard of what people think you should go do is very much an opposition of what I actually want to do.

我很清楚，有时人们认为你应该做的事情的外部记分卡与我真正想做的事情非常相反。

Even though it might be objectively better, depending on what scorecard you actually use, I would actually be less happy with some of those outcomes.

尽管客观上可能会更好，但取决于您实际使用的记分卡，我实际上对其中一些结果不太满意。

So I think values are this really nice useful tool to think about how do you make better decisions again to maximize for your own alignment with life.

所以我认为价值观是一个非常有用的工具，可以帮助你思考如何再次做出更好的决定，以最大限度地实现你自己与生活的一致性。

Lenny: That's such an important point.

莱尼：这是非常重要的一点。

It connects back to the course that I taught and then this potential book of, it just feels like an obvious thing I should do.

它与我教授的课程以及这本潜在的书有关，这感觉像是我应该做的一件显而易见的事情。

It was great, but it just didn't bring me joy.

这很棒，但它并没有给我带来快乐。

And other things bring me more joy.

还有其他事情给我带来更多快乐。

So it was a really good reminder of just like, do I really want to be doing this, or is this just a thing that feels like a smart thing to do but maybe isn't for me psychologically?

所以这确实很好地提醒了我，我真的想这样做吗？或者这只是一件感觉很聪明的事情，但在心理上可能不适合我？

So I love just the reminder of coming back to values as a lens to decide if you want to do a thing versus just, what are people telling you?

所以我喜欢提醒你回到价值观作为一个镜头来决定你是否想做一件事，而不是只是，人们告诉你什么？

Smart or...

聪明还是...

Which just feels like the natural thing to do.

这感觉就像是很自然的事情。

Ada Chen Rekhi: Yeah, and it's really self-aware of you too.

Ada Chen Rekhi：是的，你也很有自我意识。

I think too.

我也这么认为

Cut it off because you start realizing that you're doing this course, and it's not giving you energy or it's not quite the right thing.

停止它，因为你开始意识到你正在学习这门课程，而它并没有给你能量，或者它不是正确的事情。

It's really hard to say no to things.

对事情说不真的很难。

Ada Chen Rekhi: And I don't think we focus on that enough.

Ada Chen Rekhi：我认为我们对此的关注还不够。

Lenny: Yeah, I've learned how to do that better.

莱尼：是的，我已经学会了如何做得更好。

I have all these auto templates of ways to say no in different ways.

我有所有这些自动模板，其中包含以不同方式说“不”的方法。

Actually, ChatGPT, somebody's tweeted this that it has all kinds of good suggestions.

事实上，ChatGPT，有人发推文说它有各种好的建议。

If you could ask it, how do I say no to my manager who wants me to prioritize a feature?

如果您可以问，我该如何对希望我优先考虑某项功能的经理说不呢？

And has all kinds of clever words to .

并有着种种巧言相向。

Ada Chen Rekhi: Oh.

陈瑞希：哦。

Yeah, that's a great use for it.

是的，这是一个很大的用途。

Lenny: The other thing that I realized as we were going through this exercise that I imagine you find also is when you come up with an initial set of values, I was realizing I maybe another value of just keeping things simple, simplifying.

莱尼：当我们进行这个练习时，我意识到的另一件事是，我想你也会发现，当你提出一组初始价值观时，我意识到我可能还有另一个价值观，那就是让事情变得简单、简化。

And I imagine that's part of the process of narrowing in on what's important to you is you take this first pass and then you try to use it in making a decision and then you realize, oh, there's this other thing that's really important to me and that updates your values.

我想这是缩小对你来说重要的事情的过程的一部分，你采取了第一遍，然后你尝试用它来做出决定，然后你意识到，哦，还有另一件事对我来说非常重要，它更新了你的价值观。

Ada Chen Rekhi: Yeah, I think you could definitely use that process to force yourself to make a stack ring and to be really clear, and also change it.

Ada Chen Rekhi：是的，我认为你绝对可以使用这个过程来强迫自己制作一个堆栈环并非常清晰，并更改它。

Change it.

改变它。

It's yours.

这是你的。

So change it over time as it suits you.

因此，随着时间的推移，根据您的需要进行更改。

Lenny: All right.

莱尼：好吧。

It feels like there should be a curiosity loop AI bot with your values that you email, what should I do with this decision?

感觉应该有一个好奇心循环人工智能机器人，其中包含您通过电子邮件发送的价值观，我应该如何处理这个决定？

And then it's like, oh, you think simplicity is great?

然后就好像，哦，你认为简单就很好吗？

You should not do this.

你不应该这样做。

Lenny: There we go.

莱尼：我们开始吧。

Somebody build that.

有人建造它。

Okay, so it's funny we went into reverse interview, and then I have to asking questions again.

好吧，有趣的是我们进行了反向面试，然后我不得不再次提问。

So let's do this.

那么让我们这样做吧。

You talked about your career and how you resisted these shiny object opportunities to focus on the thing that you were excited about and wanted to do.

你谈到了你的职业生涯，以及你如何抵制这些闪亮物体的机会，专注于你感到兴奋和想做的事情。

So maybe a couple questions there.

也许有几个问题。

One is just early career advice.

一是早期职业建议。

You coach a lot of founders.

你指导了很多创始人。

You had a really in incredible career doing all kinds of interesting things.

你的职业生涯非常令人难以置信，做了各种有趣的事情。

What have you learned about what works best for optimizing in your early career?

关于在您的早期职业生涯中最适合优化的方法，您学到了什么？

Ada Chen Rekhi: My early career was pretty wild.

Ada Chen Rekhi：我早期的职业生涯非常疯狂。

So I had a really fast run.

所以我跑得非常快。

Over the course of seven years, I went from my first job, which was basically this entry level sales job at Microsoft, working on Microsoft adCenter to SVP of marketing at SurveyMonkey, leading a global team.

在七年的时间里，我从我的第一份工作（基本上是 Microsoft 的入门级销售工作，在 Microsoft adCenter 工作）晋升为 SurveyMonkey 的营销高级副总裁，领导一个全球团队。

And when I reflect back on what works across my early career, it really comes down in a nutshell to this career concept of explore and exploit, which actually sounds dark now that I'm saying it out loud, but-

当我回顾我早期职业生涯中有效的方法时，简而言之，它实际上可以归结为探索和利用的职业概念，现在我大声说出来，这实际上听起来很黑暗，但是-

Lenny: Yeah, sounds great.

莱尼：是的，听起来很棒。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

Ada Chen Rekhi: Explore and exploit, if you're familiar with it from growth background, is really just around what mode you're in.

Ada Chen Rekhi：探索和利用，如果你从成长背景上熟悉的话，其实就是围绕着你所处的模式。

You're either in a mode of explorer where you have a bunch of unknowns and you're testing to see whether or not you like it, how well it works, whether or not it fits for you.

你要么处于探索者模式，有一堆未知因素，你正在测试看看你是否喜欢它，它的效果如何，它是否适合你。

Or you're exploiting, where you actually have found something that's really rich and really deep and then you're just trying to get more.

或者你在利用，你实际上已经发现了一些非常丰富和深刻的东西，然后你只是想获得更多。

And when I think about explore and exploit for early career, it's all about exploration.

当我想到早期职业生涯的探索和利用时，一切都与探索有关。

You really haven't experienced that much, but you're doing it with a thesis.

你确实没有经历那么多，但你正在通过论文来做到这一点。

You're doing it with that growth mindset where you have a hypothesis.

你是用成长心态来做这件事的，你有一个假设。

So coming out of school, my first job was at Microsoft.

毕业后，我的第一份工作是在微软。

I was at adCenter.

我当时在adCenter。

The big thing I learned from the 367 days that I was there was that corporate life at that point in my career was just a little bit too slow-paced for me, and I was really hungry to go do something else.

在 367 天的工作中，我学到的最重要的一点是，在我职业生涯的那个阶段，企业生活的节奏对我来说有点太慢了，我真的很渴望去做别的事情。

Ada Chen Rekhi: But I also learned quite a lot about marketing and advertising.

Ada Chen Rekhi：但我也学到了很多关于营销和广告的知识。

And I had the suspicion that not only did I want to try something smaller, but I also wanted to try marketing.

我怀疑我不仅想尝试一些更小的事情，而且还想尝试营销。

So I moved to this series a startup where I had to sample my desk on the first day called Mochi Media.

因此，我转向了一家名为 Mochi Media 的初创公司，我必须在第一天对我的办公桌进行样品测试。

And I was in a marketing role at a startup and had this great run there over three years, where I learned all kinds of things and even tried product at some point.

我在一家初创公司担任营销职务，在那里度过了三年的美好时光，在那里我学到了各种各样的东西，甚至在某个时候尝试过产品。

What I learned from that experience was then I love marketing, games was pretty fun and being in a smaller team was really dynamic.

我从那次经历中学到的是，我喜欢营销，游戏非常有趣，而且在一个较小的团队中真的很有活力。

It was this choice on, do I exploit and go deeper into the industry or do I explore more?

就是这样的选择，我是要深入挖掘这个行业，还是要探索更多？

I was 23 at the time, so I decided I have so little to lose, let me continue exploring.

当时我23岁，所以我决定我没什么可失去的，让我继续探索吧。

My big thesis was, let me try being a founder.

我的主要论点是，让我尝试成为一名创始人。

So then I founded Connected, and Connected was this personal CRM that's a little bit like Clay.

然后我创立了 Connected，Connected 是一款有点像 Clay 的个人 CRM。

Ada Chen Rekhi: If you've seen Clay now recently, in terms of how do you do a better job of managing and building your professional and personal network and-

Ada Chen Rekhi：如果您最近见过 Clay，那么您如何更好地管理和建立您的专业和个人网络以及-

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

It's a beautiful product.

这是一个漂亮的产品。

Ada Chen Rekhi: Yeah, it's a beautiful product, much more beautiful than what we built at the time.

Ada Chen Rekhi：是的，这是一个漂亮的产品，比我们当时建造的漂亮得多。

It was such a great learning experience to discover what it was like to be a founder of a company and an entrepreneur.

发现成为公司创始人和企业家是什么样子，这是一次很棒的学习经历。

My personal learning out of all of those things was really just that I was continuously optimizing that I loved marketing.

我个人从所有这些事情中学到的东西实际上就是我不断优化我喜欢营销。

I loved being a founder.

我喜欢当一名创始人。

I really like small teams.

我真的很喜欢小团队。

There are pros and cons to this corporate life, where maybe things are really slow paced, but the scale is really important.

这种企业生活有利有弊，也许事情节奏真的很慢，但规模确实很重要。

So that was really what carried me through a lot of my early career.

所以这确实是我早期职业生涯中的大部分内容。

After Connected was acquired by LinkedIn, I moved into this exploit mode.

Connected 被 LinkedIn 收购后，我就进入了这种利用模式。

Ada Chen Rekhi: So I was at LinkedIn for a period of time while I was investing, and I really wanted to be intentional about the time that I spent there in terms of how I wanted to exploit it.

Ada Chen Rekhi：所以我在投资期间在 LinkedIn 工作了一段时间，我真的很想有意识地利用我在那里度过的时间。

So unlike a traditional path where you're really focused on trying to get the biggest title, a big team, set yourself up to run a big org, my role at LinkedIn was really explicit.

因此，与传统路径不同的是，你真正专注于获得最大的头衔、一个大团队、让自己管理一个大组织，我在 LinkedIn 的角色非常明确。

I even told my manager this when I first came in, "I'm here to learn to be a better founder." So there were a lot of things when I started connected, which I didn't know how to do very well, I didn't understand growth.

当我第一次进来时，我什至告诉我的经理，“我来这里是为了学习成为一名更好的创始人。”所以当我开始连接的时候，有很多事情我不知道如何做好，我不明白成长。

I was fair to middling at pricing.

我的定价中等偏上。

I really didn't understand how to build a subscriptions business and how to price it.

我真的不明白如何建立订阅业务以及如何定价。

So if I can make my LinkedIn experiences match to that, that would be a huge win for me independent of promotion, or compensation or a whole bunch of those things because the plan afterward is actually to go off and start another company.

因此，如果我能让我的 LinkedIn 经历与此相匹配，这对我来说将是一个巨大的胜利，独立于晋升、薪酬或一大堆诸如此类的事情，因为之后的计划实际上是去创办另一家公司。

Ada Chen Rekhi: So I managed to get into this great role leading gross marketing for LinkedIn, working with their growth team from a hundred million to 200 million members, read every experiment brief that I could, spent a lot of time with the team, really understanding their process, and then shifted into the subscription side where I worked on LinkedIn subscriptions and ran their sales subscriptions business at scale through the online channel.

Ada Chen Rekhi：所以我成功地担任了领导 LinkedIn 总营销的重要角色，与他们拥有 1 亿到 2 亿会员的增长团队合作，阅读了我能阅读的每一份实验简报，花了很多时间与团队相处，真正了解他们的流程，然后转向订阅方面，我负责 LinkedIn 订阅，并通过在线渠道大规模运营他们的销售订阅业务。

And saw how all of those pieces and worked together from a financial planning and analysis stage to all of the optimizations that they did.

并了解了所有这些部分如何协同工作，从财务规划和分析阶段到他们所做的所有优化。

It was just such a rare opportunity, but I wouldn't have gotten those opportunities if I just let them promote me or I followed a strategy where I was just focused on trying to get the biggest title.

这真是一个难得的机会，但如果我只是让他们提拔我，或者我遵循专注于获得最大头衔的策略，我就不会获得这些机会。

Ada Chen Rekhi: Instead, I was focused on those learnings and those experiences.

Ada Chen Rekhi：相反，我专注于那些学习和经历。

Ultimately, the fact that I was a startup founder.

最终，我是一名初创公司创始人。

I had big company experience.

我有大公司的经验。

I had growth experience, and I had subs experience.

我有成长经历，也有替补经历。

And I was a product marketer.

我是一名产品营销人员。

That was actually the winning combination that caused SurveyMonkey to send me a LinkedIn InMail, start a conversation and ultimately bring me in as their head of marketing at the age of, I think I was 27 or 28 at the time.

这实际上是一个成功的组合，促使 SurveyMonkey 向我发送 LinkedIn InMail，开始对话，并最终在我 27 岁或 28 岁的时候邀请我担任他们的营销主管。

Because their rationale was, you have all these experiences that we really need and you don't have the management experience, but we have plenty of that.

因为他们的理由是，你拥有我们真正需要的所有这些经验，但你没有管理经验，但我们有很多。

We're happy to teach that to you.

我们很高兴向您传授这一点。

Lenny: I really like this framework.

Lenny：我真的很喜欢这个框架。

I've never heard it described this way.

我从来没有听过这样的描述。

Explore and exploit connects a lot with what I always recommend which, early on, is to optimize for a variety of experience so that you can figure out where you actually have a good time and what you're interested in versus getting stuck on the first thing something.

探索和利用与我一直推荐的东西有很大关系，即在早期，优化各种体验，这样你就可以弄清楚你真正在哪里度过了愉快的时光，你对什么感兴趣，而不是陷入第一件事。

I don't know if you'll have an immediate answer to this, but I'm curious.

我不知道你是否能立即得到答案，但我很好奇。

Many people don't know how long to stick with something that maybe doesn't feel good but may lead to something.

许多人不知道要坚持做一些可能感觉不好但可能会带来结果的事情多久。

Like, someone may be in a job right now, or just like, "I really don't like this job, but I feel like it'll lead to something great.

就像，有人现在可能正在工作，或者只是像，“我真的不喜欢这份工作，但我觉得它会带来一些伟大的事情。

And I don't want to give up too quickly." So I guess the question is, what are heuristics that tell you to stick it out and stick with something that you think will lead to something great versus hold the recording and get out?

而且我不想太快放弃。”所以我想问题是，什么启发法可以告诉你坚持下去，坚持做你认为会带来伟大成果的事情，而不是保留录音然后离开？

Ada Chen Rekhi: That's a great question, and it's a really tough one that is contextual on the person that you are.

艾达·陈·雷希：这是一个很好的问题，也是一个非常棘手的问题，而且与你的具体情况有关。

So one of the things that I like to share is this idea of, it's a little gory, don't be the frog.

所以我想分享的一件事就是这个想法，这有点血腥，不要成为青蛙。

So if you are familiar with the story of the frog, it's this idea of boiling the frog.

所以，如果你熟悉青蛙的故事，那就是煮青蛙的想法。

So if you take a frog, and you throw in a pot of boiling water, it'll jump out.

所以如果你把一只青蛙扔进一锅沸水里，它就会跳出来。

But if you take a frog and you put in a pot and you increase the temperature degree by degree by degree, the frog doesn't notice and before it knows, it's boiled alive.

但如果你把一只青蛙放进锅里，然后一点一点地提高温度，青蛙不会注意到，在它意识到之前，它就被活活煮了。

And how I apply this to your question to come back and circle back to it is that, it's really easy to be a victim of inertia.

我如何将这一点应用到你的问题上，然后再回到这个问题上来，那就是，很容易成为惰性的受害者。

It's really easy for all of us to be the frog where there are little things that make us uncomfortable, and we sit with them or we think, "Gosh, it'll get better.

对于我们所有人来说，很容易成为青蛙，因为一些小事情让我们感到不舒服，我们和他们坐在一起，或者我们想，“天哪，情况会好起来的。

The next manager will get better.

下一任经理会变得更好。

I'm always one conversation or one promotion away from getting to that next step."

我总是只需要一次谈话或一次晋升就可以迈出下一步。”

Ada Chen Rekhi: But you really have to be aware of your surroundings.

Ada Chen Rekhi：但你确实必须注意周围的环境。

You have to be aware of which way is the direction of the temperature of the water trending.

您必须了解水温趋势的方向。

That's what makes the advice really contextual.

这就是使建议真正切合实际的原因。

I really look at it from the lens of learning.

我确实是从学习的角度来看待它的。

What can I learn here, and how am I growing and developing?

我在这里能学到什么？我如何成长和发展？

So there might be an argument for you to stay at a job for two decades.

因此，可能有人会建议你继续从事一份工作二十年。

If it turns out that every single day you're being really challenged, you're learning new things, you're deriving a lot of meaningful enjoyment out of your work and you're this happy frog that's hanging out, realizing that things are good and the temperature is not rising.

如果事实证明，你每一天都面临着真正的挑战，你在学习新事物，你从工作中获得了很多有意义的享受，你就是这只快乐的青蛙，在闲逛，意识到一切都很好，而且气温并没有上升。

But there are also situations where you might encounter just some really hard walls, where you don't get along with the thesis of the company.

但也有一些情况，你可能会遇到一些非常坚硬的墙，你无法与公司的理念相处。

You don't agree with the direction of the company that you're in.

你不同意你所在公司的发展方向。

Ada Chen Rekhi: There are fundamental aspects of the role which are limiting to you or you're not learning a lot, frankly.

Ada Chen Rekhi：坦率地说，这个角色的一些基本方面对你有限制，或者你没有学到很多东西。

I think that happens a lot, where you providing a lot of value and doing a good job at a company, but you might not be learning things that stretch you and grow you to achieve your ultimate goal.

我认为这种情况经常发生，你在公司提供了很多价值并做得很好，但你可能没有学到那些可以拓展你并让你成长以实现你的最终目标的东西。

When you are aware of that learning, I think that's the point at which you have to say, "How do I change that?

当你意识到这种学习时，我认为你必须说：“我该如何改变它？

How do I be an agent in my own career and make a difference in that?" And it doesn't necessarily mean that the strategy is to quit your job and do something catastrophic, and then go do something else, take a course or sign up for something new.

我如何在自己的职业生涯中成为一名经纪人并做出改变？”这并不一定意味着你的策略是辞掉工作，做一些灾难性的事情，然后去做其他事情，参加一门课程或报名参加一些新的东西。

It might actually mean a proactive conversation with your manager or the leadership to say, "I love what I'm doing here, and I would also like to learn a little bit more.

实际上，这可能意味着与你的经理或领导层进行积极主动的对话，说：“我喜欢我在这里所做的事情，而且我还想学到更多东西。

And here's what I'm interested in."

这就是我感兴趣的。”

Ada Chen Rekhi: And then try to find a way to either land the right projects.

Ada Chen Rekhi：然后尝试找到一种方法来获得合适的项目。

So in my case, it was really growth and subscriptions, that experience that I really wanted.

因此，就我而言，真正需要的是增长和订阅，这是我真正想要的体验。

Let's say, you hit a blank wall there, even take it as a gift of time, which is great.

比方说，你在那里撞到了一堵空白的墙，甚至把它当作时间的礼物，这很棒。

I'm not going to be able to get this from my company, but now that I have this extra time because I'm so optimized at this job, how am I going to choose to use that time?

我无法从我的公司得到这个，但现在我有了这些额外的时间，因为我在这份工作上非常优化，我将如何选择利用这些时间？

And it might be around building relationships with some of the key people at the company or learning something new on your own time that you can leverage in another way.

它可能是与公司的一些关键人物建立关系，或者在你自己的时间里学习一些新的东西，你可以通过其他方式利用这些东西。

Lenny: I like that.

莱尼：我喜欢这样。

Make the most of the time, even if it's not the best opportunity for you.

充分利用时间，即使这对您来说不是最好的机会。

Also love the frog boiling metaphor.

也喜欢煮青蛙的比喻。

Lenny: No, it's great.

莱尼：不，这太棒了。

So I guess the lesson there is think about are you that frog being boiled right now and think ahead, is this going to be the end of the-

所以我想你要思考的教训是，你现在正在煮青蛙，并提前思考，这是否会是-的结束

Ada Chen Rekhi: Right.

陈瑞希：对。

Keep an eye on your environment and which way is it trending?

密切关注您的环境及其趋势？

Lenny: Yeah, the temperature on the thermostat in your office.

莱尼：是的，你办公室恒温器的温度。

The other thing this makes me think about is, it's so easy to get caught up in making your resume look amazing and continuing to just like, "Oh, if I get this next role, my resume's going to look so great." And this other logo and this cool title and role.

这让我想到的另一件事是，很容易让你的简历看起来很棒，然后继续说，“哦，如果我得到下一个职位，我的简历看起来会很棒。”还有这个另一个标志和这个很酷的标题和角色。

I find that just like, you do that long enough in your life, you end up...

我发现就像，你一生中这样做足够长的时间，你最终会......

You retire, and then you die.

你退休了，然后你就死了。

Life is that resume.

生活就是简历。

Right?

正确的？

That is your life, you're living, and there's not going to be a point at which you have to realize, okay, I've done all the things to make my resume.

这就是你的生活，你正在生活，你不需要意识到，好吧，我已经做了所有的事情来制作我的简历。

Also, I'm like, "What do I actually want to do?

另外，我会想，“我到底想做什么？

Am I enjoying this?" Because it'll never end.

我很享受这个吗？”因为它永远不会结束。

You're never going to end trying to make a better resume and a more awesome background for yourself.

你永远不会停止为自己制作更好的简历和更棒的背景的努力。

Do you experience that with yourself or other people you work with of just over optimizing to make an awesome series of roles and logos and then forgetting, do I actually enjoy any of this?

您是否经历过这样的经历：您自己或与您一起工作的其他人只是过度优化以制作一系列很棒的角色和徽标，然后忘记了，我真的喜欢这些吗？

What am I doing?

我在做什么？

Ada Chen Rekhi: I have experienced that personally a lot.

Ada Chen Rekhi：我个人经历过很多次。

I think that it may be a generational thing or it just may be my background, but having grown up with the Asian tiger parenting, it's very focused on logos or certain accomplishments or certain achievements like, going to an Ivy League school, working in a company that someone's heard of, being able to have a certain title.

我认为这可能是一代人的事情，也可能只是我的背景，但在亚洲虎的养育下长大，它非常注重标志或某些成就或某些成就，比如上常春藤盟校、在某人听说过的公司工作、能够拥有某个头衔。

At a certain point, I bailed out a bit and I really started to think about who am I trying to please and optimize for?

在某个时刻，我放弃了一点，我真的开始思考我要取悦谁并为谁优化？

That values exercise that I had you do, Lenny, is actually a big piece of that.

莱尼，我让你做的价值观练习实际上是其中的一个重要部分。

So I probably took it for the first time over a decade ago, at this point.

所以我可能是在十多年前的这个时候第一次接受它。

I looked at those values and I said, "Well, if I draw a straight line from where I am right now and just extend it forward and play the rest of the movie as it plays out, given the current plot line, how well does that optimize for those values?"

我看着这些值，然后说：“好吧，如果我从我现在所在的位置画一条直线，然后将其向前延伸，并在播放电影时播放电影的其余部分，考虑到当前的情节主线，对于这些值的优化效果如何？”

Ada Chen Rekhi: That's great.

艾达·陈瑞希：那太好了。

My parents might be happy about my resume or other people might look upon me in a certain way because I've managed these achievements, but in my day-to-day life, what really matters to me, what's really meaningful to me, only some of this stuff really matters.

我的父母可能会对我的简历感到高兴，或者其他人可能会以某种方式看待我，因为我取得了这些成就，但在我的日常生活中，对我来说真正重要的事情，对我真正有意义的事情，只有其中一些东西真正重要。

So getting very intentional about that and being clear about who your audience is as you navigate your career.

因此，在你的职业生涯中，要非常有意识地意识到这一点，并清楚你的受众是谁。

I think it's a terrible outcome to wake up one day and be late career and feel trapped because you have a certain lifestyle or a certain expectations of the people around you that you have to go work this job, but then you look at yourself in the mirror and you're not happy going in there.

我认为，有一天醒来，事业迟到，感觉自己被困住了，因为你有某种生活方式，或者周围的人对你有某种期望，你必须去做这份工作，但当你看着镜子里的自己，你并不高兴去那里，这是一个可怕的结果。

I think that's a terrible trap that we should all try to avoid as we navigate our career paths and find the thing that's most optimal for us, which is usually a mix of career success, but also meaningfulness and alignment in the work that we're doing with our values.

我认为这是一个可怕的陷阱，在我们探索职业道路并找到最适合我们的事情时，我们都应该尽力避免，这通常是职业成功的结合，但也包括我们所做的工作的意义和与我们的价值观的一致性。

Lenny: I love this topic.

莱尼：我喜欢这个话题。

Thank you for sharing that.

感谢您分享这一点。

This episode is brought to you by Sprig.

本集由 Sprig 为您带来。

You already heard me talk about how Sprig helps you uncover blind spots in your product development process, allowing you to better understand why users take certain actions and how they feel about the experience.

您已经听过我谈论 Sprig 如何帮助您发现产品开发过程中的盲点，让您更好地理解用户为何采取某些操作以及他们对体验的感受。

Just this week, they launched their brand new templates library, which you can find at sprig.com/templates.

就在本周，他们推出了全新的模板库，您可以在 sprig.com/templates 上找到该库。

Which helps you plug and play proven playbooks for helping you identify and solve the biggest challenges facing product teams today.

它可以帮助您即插即用经过验证的策略，帮助您识别和解决产品团队当今面临的最大挑战。

From how to optimize an existing feature to improving a conversion flow, to troubleshooting drop off.

从如何优化现有功能到改进转化流程，再到解决掉线问题。

One of the questions I get most on this podcast and in my newsletter is how to develop your product sense.

我在这个播客和我的时事通讯中得到最多的问题之一是如何培养你的产品意识。

So I decided to work with Sprig to build a playbook for how to do just that, based on my experience at Airbnb and what I learned from interviewing top product people like, Jules Walter who wrote a whole guest post on how to develop your product sense, which informed this template that you'll find.

因此，我决定与 Sprig 合作，根据我在 Airbnb 的经验以及我从采访顶级产品人士（如 Jules Walter）中学到的知识，编写一本关于如何做到这一点的剧本，Jules Walter 写了一篇关于如何培养产品意识的完整客座文章，该文章为您将找到的这个模板提供了信息。

Just go to sprig.com/templates to find this playbook and 85 more that is sprig.com/templates.

只需访问 sprig.com/templates 即可找到此剧本以及 sprig.com/templates 中的 85 个剧本。

S-P-R-I-G.com/plates.

S-P-R-I-G.com/plates。

Lenny: What triggered your reevaluation of that path?

莱尼：是什么促使你重新评估这条道路？

Was there just like a, "Oh, man.

是不是就像“哦，伙计。

I need to really rethink where I'm going." And then I have a follow-up question.

我需要真正重新考虑我要去哪里。”然后我有一个后续问题。

Ada Chen Rekhi: Really just a career opportunity.

Ada Chen Rekhi：真的只是一个职业机会。

And it was this step where I could do something that was, at the time, really high profile and really exciting and felt great, but also involved demanding travel and grueling hours.

正是在这一步，我可以做一些当时非常引人注目、非常令人兴奋、感觉很棒的事情，但也涉及到艰苦的旅行和艰苦的时间。

And wasn't in a space that I was excited about, but it looked amazing on my resume.

虽然我并没有进入一个令我兴奋的领域，但它在我的简历上看起来很棒。

And I was talking to a friend about it, and they actually introduced me to this values exercise to say like, "Ada, go through and fill out this values exercise, and apply it to this job." What I realized at the time, after I did it, was that my top three values, the things that I cared about this job would categorically just fail at because I would be gone all the time, in pursuit of glory that I didn't really care about.

我正在和一个朋友谈论这件事，他们实际上向我介绍了这个价值观练习，并说：“艾达，仔细阅读并填写这个价值观练习，并将其应用到这份工作中。”在我这样做之后，我当时意识到，我的三大价值观，即我在这份工作中所关心的事情绝对会失败，因为我会一直离开，去追求我并不真正关心的荣耀。

Instead, my current path at the time was something that if I persisted in, it would actually be able to potentially fulfill all of those values.

相反，我当时所走的道路是，如果我坚持下去，实际上就有可能实现所有这些价值观。

Lenny: It reminds me of a friend who has this metaphor of this ego monster sitting in the corner of the room that's always yelling at them, when they're...

莱尼：这让我想起一个朋友，他有这样一个比喻：这个自我怪物坐在房间的角落里，总是对他们大喊大叫，当他们……

To do the thing that's impressive and take on the really cool role, and just get an awesome title, and do something really impressive, that's just like yelling at them from the corner.

做一些令人印象深刻的事情，扮演一个非常酷的角色，获得一个很棒的头衔，做一些真正令人印象深刻的事情，这就像在角落里对他们大喊大叫一样。

And my friend's just learned to just like, "Okay, that's the ego monster pulling at me.

我的朋友刚刚学会了这样说：“好吧，这就是自我怪物在吸引我。

I don't have to listen to that.

我不必听那个。

Doesn't mean I'm going to be happy if I listen to this guy." And that's been really helpful to my friend just to disassociate that part of the brain.

并不意味着如果我听这个人的话我就会高兴。”这对我的朋友来说非常有帮助，只是将大脑的那部分分开。

Ada Chen Rekhi: Yeah.

艾达·陈瑞希：是的。

The ego monster is a great way to put it.

自我怪物是一个很好的表达方式。

I use something that Warren Buffet has talked about, which is inner scorecard versus outer scorecard.

我使用沃伦·巴菲特（Warren Buffet）谈到的东西，即内部记分卡与外部记分卡。

Ada Chen Rekhi: So he talks about how there's an outer scorecard, which is how the rest of the world evaluates you, how you keep score in terms of external factors.

Ada Chen Rekhi：所以他谈到了如何有一个外部记分卡，即世界其他地方如何评估你，你如何根据外部因素来记分。

So top 10 lists, wealth status, title, maybe things that people really care about.

所以前十名的榜单，财富状况，头衔，也许是人们真正关心的事情。

And then your inner scorecard is things that actually matter to you, how you spent your day, how good of a person you are.

然后，你的内心记分卡是对你真正重要的事情，你如何度过这一天，你是一个多么优秀的人。

Did you have an adventure today, Lenny?

莱尼，你今天有冒险吗？

Were you kind?

你很友善吗？

And there are a lot of things that maybe are in opposition to each other.

而且有很多事情可能是相互对立的。

So really thinking about did you win at the cost of kindness?

所以认真思考一下你是否以仁慈为代价赢得了胜利？

Did you succeed at the cost of losing access to the adventure that you really wanted?

你的成功是否是以失去真正想要的冒险为代价的？

I think really thinking about it in that lens helps you trade off against some of that external pressure and the ego monster.

我认为真正从这个角度思考它可以帮助你权衡一些外部压力和自我怪物。

Lenny: This might be a good segue to chat about coaching.

莱尼：这可能是谈论教练的一个很好的话题。

I imagine a lot of people listening to this like, "Yes, I want to do that.

我想很多人听到这句话都会说：“是的，我想这么做。

I want to measure myself according to my values and check in on this.

我想根据我的价值观来衡量自己并检查这一点。

And am I doing the wrong path?" It's hard to do just on your own, I find.

我是不是走错了路？”我发现仅靠自己很难做到。

And I think that's one of the benefits of an executive coach.

我认为这是高管教练的好处之一。

So maybe we just chat about what should people know about coaching and getting a coach, and does everyone need a coach and how to think about the idea of getting a coach at some point in their career.

所以也许我们只是讨论人们应该了解关于教练和获得教练的知识，每个人都需要教练吗？以及如何考虑在职业生涯的某个阶段获得教练的想法。

Ada Chen Rekhi: I'll have a hot take on this, and it's something that I share to people when I talk to them about coaching.

艾达·陈·雷希 (Ada Chen Rekhi)：我对此有一个强烈的看法，当我与人们谈论教练时，我会与他们分享这一点。

But my hot take is that for the vast majority of people, they probably do not need a coach.

但我的热门观点是，对于绝大多数人来说，他们可能不需要教练。

Ada Chen Rekhi: And what I often push people on is if you're thinking about getting a coach, which is usually an indication that they have a feeling of being stuck or they have a problem that they're trying to solve, I ask them, "What are your goals when it comes to coaching?

Ada Chen Rekhi：我经常催促人们的是，如果你正在考虑找一位教练，这通常表明他们有一种被困住的感觉，或者他们有一个想要解决的问题，我问他们，“当谈到教练时，你的目标是什么？

Roll it forward six months, what have you gotten done in your coaching experience.

将其推进六个月，您在执教经历中取得了哪些成就。

What have you accomplished, and you're just...

你已经完成了什么，而你只是...

It's like, a home run.

这就像一个本垒打。

And then look at all of the potential alternatives in terms of how you could have spent your valuable time and often pricey fees to achieve the same goal, but maybe in a better way." The thing that people don't really think about is if you're looking for a mentor, a coach is actually a terrible mentor in some ways because it's this one person's opinion.

然后看看所有潜在的替代方案，看看如何利用宝贵的时间和昂贵的费用来实现相同的目标，但也许是以更好的方式。”人们没有真正考虑到的是，如果你正在寻找导师，教练实际上在某些方面是一个糟糕的导师，因为这是一个人的观点。

It's actually way better to run a curiosity loop, for example, and get the benefit a couple different minds on a specific topic and hit their wheelhouse of things that they know about.

例如，运行一个好奇心循环实际上更好，让不同的人对某个特定主题受益，并了解他们所知道的事情。

Than to go ask one person, what do you think I should do in this situation?

不如去问一个人，你认为在这种情况下我应该做什么？

Ada Chen Rekhi: If you're trying to learn about a topic in a really robust way, let's say you want to learn about growth, maybe you should take are Reforge course and get access to all of the resources and the insights of the EIRs and the growth advisors that Reforge and get an overview and survey of the landscape instead of one person's experience and the handful of companies that they might have worked with.

Ada Chen Rekhi：如果你想以一种真正强有力的方式了解某个主题，假设你想了解增长，也许你应该参加 Reforge 课程，并获得 EIR 和 Reforge 增长顾问的所有资源和见解，并获得对环境的概述和调查，而不是一个人的经验以及他们可能合作过的少数公司。

Likewise, if you're just feeling like you're a little emotionally overcome, I think coaches are this great resource around that, but it's actually better to pay it forward and build a tribe and a community of people around you that you can rely on for support because that's the thing that lasts you for years and years.

同样，如果你只是感觉自己在情绪上有点受不了，我认为教练是一个很好的资源，但实际上更好的做法是把它传递出去，在你周围建立一个你可以依靠的支持的部落和社区，因为这是可以陪伴你很多年的东西。

Ada Chen Rekhi: So one of the first things that I do when people talk to me about coaching is I challenge them and say, "Have you explored all of these other opportunities first, and do you really need a coach?

Ada Chen Rekhi：所以，当人们与我谈论教练时，我做的第一件事就是挑战他们并说：“你是否首先探索过所有这些其他机会，你真的需要教练吗？

And is a coach actually the best option for you?" Like an anti sell, just so that they know what they're getting themselves into because I don't necessarily think that it's useful for all things, even though it can be helpful.

教练真的是你的最佳选择吗？”就像反推销一样，只是为了让他们知道自己正在陷入什么境地，因为我不一定认为它对所有事情都有用，尽管它可能会有帮助。

Lenny: And then when do you find that it's actually important and valuable and something someone should try to get?

莱尼：然后你什么时候发现它实际上很重要、很有价值，并且是人们应该尝试得到的东西？

Ada Chen Rekhi: I wouldn't be a coach if I didn't think that it wasn't important and valuable.

Ada Chen Rekhi：如果我不认为教练不重要和有价值，我就不会成为一名教练。

I think that in certain contexts it can be super helpful.

我认为在某些情况下它会非常有帮助。

So when you have situations where you're in a state of hyper growth, and you need very accelerated learning, and you need someone who can point you in the right direction, I think coaches can be really helpful.

因此，当你处于高速成长状态，需要非常快速的学习，并且需要有人能够为你指明正确的方向时，我认为教练会非常有帮助。

So I work with founders for example, and founders are just in this unique state where everything is chaos.

例如，我与创始人合作，而创始人正处于这种独特的状态，一切都是混乱的。

They have no structure.

它们没有结构。

They don't know what their jobs are.

他们不知道自己的工作是什么。

They have fully justified imposter syndrome where no one in their right mind would objectively have hired them for the position that they're in.

他们患有冒名顶替综合症，没有一个头脑正常的人会客观地雇用他们担任他们所处的职位。

There's really intense highs and lows.

有非常强烈的高潮和低谷。

So for a founder, it might make a lot of sense to get a coach because they have to learn a lot of stuff really quickly, and time is of the essence.

因此，对于创始人来说，聘请教练可能很有意义，因为他们必须快速学习很多东西，而时间至关重要。

Ada Chen Rekhi: So a coach might be a really helpful shortcut for them to get there.

Ada Chen Rekhi：所以教练可能是他们实现这一目标的一条非常有帮助的捷径。

Related to that, I think it's also really helpful on sensitive topics.

与此相关的是，我认为这对敏感话题也很有帮助。

So there are a lot of things that we want to be coached on where either it takes a lot of time for us to work through and progress because it's a long-term project, for example, or it's something very sensitive.

因此，我们希望在很多事情上得到指导，例如，我们需要花费大量时间来完成和取得进展，因为这是一个长期项目，或者是非常敏感的事情。

People issues and interpersonal conflicts.

人的问题和人际冲突。

Coaches can be especially helpful in those cases because it's this really safe space for you to work through things, but also have someone who's really rational to help guide you through them with potentially some frameworks and extra advice.

在这些情况下，教练会特别有帮助，因为这是一个非常安全的空间，可以让你解决问题，而且还有一个非常理性的人来帮助指导你完成这些事情，并可能提供一些框架和额外的建议。

Lenny: So I had a couple coaches in my career and what made me feel like I should pursue that is when you think about a sports athlete or, I don't know, athlete.

莱尼：在我的职业生涯中，我有过几位教练，让我觉得我应该追求的就是当你想到一名体育运动员，或者我不知道是运动员时。

No one does not have a coach, the best athletes have coaches and they get great because they have somebody helping them get better.

没有人没有教练，最好的运动员都有教练，他们之所以变得伟大，是因为有人帮助他们变得更好。

It's not just like an accident.

这不仅仅是一场意外。

They don't just learn on their own.

他们不只是自己学习。

It just makes you realize that other people in their profession that have a coach helping them out are just going to be more successful because innately, they have someone helping them learn how to do the job better.

它只会让你意识到，在他们的职业中，有教练帮助的其他人只会更加成功，因为他们天生就有人帮助他们学习如何更好地完成工作。

So that made me realize, man, I should probably get a coach to help me out with stuff.

所以这让我意识到，伙计，我可能应该找一位教练来帮助我解决问题。

Even though there wasn't anything super specific, I'm like, "Oh, I need to fix this problem." It was just like, wow, this just intellectually make sense.

尽管没有什么非常具体的事情，我还是想，“哦，我需要解决这个问题。”就像，哇，这在理智上是有道理的。

So it was actually really important and transformative for me.

所以这对我来说实际上非常重要并且具有变革性。

Ada Chen Rekhi: If you go to my site, I actually have this guide that I've written over time on both my take on how do you find a coach, and the TLDR there is actually that I strongly recommend to everyone.

Ada Chen Rekhi：如果你访问我的网站，我实际上有这份指南，是我多年来写的关于如何找到教练的指南，而且那里的 TLDR 实际上是我强烈推荐给大家的。

If you're thinking about getting a coach, talk to two or three different coaches.

如果您正在考虑聘请教练，请与两到三个不同的教练交谈。

And really get a sense of their vibe and how well you get to know them.

真正了解他们的氛围以及您对他们的了解程度。

It's surprising because I did this piece of research, which I also wrote about, and we could link to, but I talked to over 80 people about their experiences with a coach.

令人惊讶的是，因为我做了这项研究，我也写了这篇研究，我们可以链接到，但我与 80 多人谈论了他们与教练的经历。

I talked including coaches, including founders, including executives and there's this shocking data point in there where half of people that founder their coach literally went with the first coach that they talked to.

我谈到了教练，包括创始人，包括高管，其中有一个令人震惊的数据点，其中一半的创始人他们的教练实际上是选择了与他们交谈的第一位教练。

It's that your buddy said, "I work with this great coach." And then you go and you hire your buddy's coach.

就是你的朋友说的：“我和这位伟大的教练一起工作。”然后你去聘请你好友的教练。

Ada Chen Rekhi: I think that's a totally fine way to go find a coach, but I would actually really just urge people to talk to a couple because what works for your friend may not work for you.

Ada Chen Rekhi：我认为这是寻找教练的好方法，但实际上我会敦促人们与一对夫妇交谈，因为对你朋友有用的方法可能对你不起作用。

And just being able to see some of the variance in terms of the style and how people get along, I think that can make a huge difference in terms of this reflection of how do you learn best?

只要能够看到风格和人们相处方式方面的一些差异，我认为这可以在反思如何最好地学习方面产生巨大的差异？

When you think about acquiring a new skill, do you love structure?

当您考虑获得一项新技能时，您喜欢结构吗？

Do you not like structure?

你不喜欢结构吗？

Do you like it when someone really teaches you and walks you through specific examples, or do you frameworks?

您喜欢有人真正教您并引导您完成具体示例，还是喜欢框架？

Coaches come in all of those different flavors.

教练有各种不同的风格。

So I think it's really worth it to explore before you get into such a deep relationship with someone, just so that both people can feel really sure about it.

所以我认为，在你和某人建立如此深厚的关系之前，进行探索是非常值得的，这样两个人都能对此感到真正确定。

Lenny: What's one thing that people may not think about or just something that you find really important that maybe is unexpected when you're looking for a coach?

莱尼：有哪些事情是人们可能没有想到的，或者是你在寻找教练时发现非常重要但可能出乎意料的事情？

Ada Chen Rekhi: I thought that credentials and the relevant experience of the coach was a huge factor in terms of how you should go about your coach selection.

Ada Chen Rekhi：我认为教练的资历和相关经验是你如何选择教练的一个重要因素。

But part of the interviews that I did was talking to founders that had had experiences with coaches and asking them to reflect back, and these founders and executives when they thought about it, they actually said so much more about, it was actually this amorphous sense of vibe with the person, how safe you felt with them, how deeply you would explore with them, and how well they got you, and remembered the pieces of the conversation and help you put it together.

但我所做的采访的一部分是与那些有过教练经验的创始人交谈，并要求他们反思，这些创始人和高管当他们想到这一点时，他们实际上说了很多，实际上是与人之间的这种无形的氛围感，你和他们在一起的安全感，你会和他们一起探索多深，以及他们对你的了解程度，并记住谈话的各个部分并帮助你将它们组合在一起。

Way more than potentially some experiences that they'd had, where this person had the perfect background, but they just never really connected on that level.

远比他们可能拥有的一些经历要多得多，这个人拥有完美的背景，但他们从未在那个层面上真正建立过联系。

So it was unintuitive to me that there was such a big piece of it that was around personal connection, which is why I've now pushed people to try to talk to a couple different people.

所以对我来说，其中很大一部分与个人联系有关，这对我来说是不直观的，这就是为什么我现在敦促人们尝试与几个不同的人交谈。

Ada Chen Rekhi: And then the other thing which comes back to the sports coaching analogy is that there are different coaches that are really good at different things.

Ada Chen Rekhi：然后回到体育教练类比的另一件事是，有不同的教练真正擅长不同的事情。

So just like how, if you're a star tennis player, you might actually have multiple coaches working with you, maybe an offensive coach or a defensive coach or working on a particular swing.

所以就像，如果你是一名明星网球运动员，你实际上可能有多名教练与你一起工作，可能是进攻教练，也可能是防守教练，或者在特定的挥杆动作上进行训练。

It actually makes sense when you're really performing at a high level to consider having coaches that work with you on shorter term basis to really just work on your speaking or help you with getting into your groove on writing or help you achieve a specific goal.

当你真正达到高水平时，考虑让教练在短期内与你合作，真正训练你的口语或帮助你进入写作状态或帮助你实现特定目标，这实际上是有意义的。

You shouldn't think about it as this long-term commitment to stay with one person, but instead more choosing off of a menu and thinking about what goal are you trying to achieve right now?

您不应该将其视为与一个人在一起的长期承诺，而是更多地从菜单中进行选择并思考您现在想要实现的目标是什么？

Lenny: Does anyone ever get multiple executive coaches that...

莱尼：有没有人遇到过多个执行教练……

I like how we went from, you don't need a coach to maybe need a month hamstrings.

我喜欢我们的做法，你不需要教练，也许需要一个月的腿筋训练。

Ada Chen Rekhi: Yes.

陈瑞希：是的。

I know of multiple people that I've talked to, usually CEOs, that either have had a series of coaches or have multiple coaches.

我认识很多与我交谈过的人，通常是首席执行官，他们要么拥有一系列教练，要么拥有多名教练。

It makes a lot more sense, Lenny, when you think about someone who's getting a pitch coach because they're about to get into fundraising.

莱尼，当你想到某人因为即将进入筹款而聘请了一名推介教练时，这就更有意义了。

Ada Chen Rekhi: Right.

陈瑞希：对。

For niche things because they're about to enter a process or someone who's trying to get into a writing coach-

对于利基事物，因为他们即将进入一个过程或试图进入写作教练的人-

Ada Chen Rekhi: ...

艾达·陈热希：...

in addition to some of their executive and leadership work that they might be doing.

除了他们可能正在做的一些行政和领导工作之外。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

That makes sense.

这是有道理的。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

I'm going to get four coaches.

我要找四位教练。

One for everything I do

我做的每一件事都合一

Ada Chen Rekhi: Yes.

陈瑞希：是的。

And then a parent coach.

然后是家长教练。

Don't forget that.

别忘了这一点。

Lenny: Parent coach.

莱尼：家长教练。

A job board coach, and then just a life coach.

一个工作委员会教练，然后只是一个生活教练。

Okay.

好的。

I'm on it.

我正在做。

Okay.

好的。

So let's touch on the thing that your friends said we shouldn't touch on, which is being a woman in leadership in Silicon Valley.

那么，让我们来谈谈你的朋友说我们不应该触及的事情，那就是在硅谷担任领导职务的女性。

I guess I'll just frame it simply.

我想我会简单地把它框起来。

Imagine there's many young women listening to this podcast, and many may dream of a career like yours, all the things you've shared.

想象一下，有许多年轻女性正在收听这个播客，其中许多人可能梦想拥有像您一样的职业，以及您分享的所有东西。

What advice do you have for young women just starting out in their career hoping to find a similar path?

对于刚刚开始职业生涯并希望找到类似道路的年轻女性，您有什么建议？

Ada Chen Rekhi: This is a really delicate subject, and it's interesting because when I try to decompose why people gave me the feedback they gave me on this topic, I think a big piece of it is just that you want to have respect for the inherent challenges of being a non stereotypically great fit for leadership roles or certain career success roles in Silicon Valley and acknowledge that.

Ada Chen Rekhi：这是一个非常微妙的话题，很有趣，因为当我试图分解为什么人们给我关于这个话题的反馈时，我认为其中很大一部分就是你想要尊重非刻板地非常适合硅谷领导角色或某些职业成功角色的固有挑战，并承认这一点。

And also try to push for some of the agency of the things that you can do.

并尝试推动一些你可以做的事情的代理。

So I'm going to start with just this quick story about someone that I worked with who's given me permission to share this, in a coaching context and then back out.

因此，我将从一个与我共事的人开始，他允许我在教练环境中分享这个故事，然后退出。

So I was working with a seed stage founder, and she's so smart.

所以我和一位种子期创始人一起工作，她非常聪明。

She is really dynamic, very, very focused, really, really great at taking feedback and actioning it.

她真的很有活力，非常非常专注，非常非常善于接受反馈并采取行动。

She's one of those people that is just stellar, and I have no doubt that she's going to make a huge dent in the universe.

她是那些杰出的人之一，我毫不怀疑她将在宇宙中产生巨大的影响。

Ada Chen Rekhi: We've been working together on Zoom for a couple of months, and I'd built this great respect for her competence as an operator, and the way that she thought and took apart problems and then acted on them.

Ada Chen Rekhi：我们已经在 Zoom 上合作了几个月，我对她作为操作员的能力以及她思考、分解问题然后采取行动的方式非常尊重。

And then we met together for the first time in person at lunch.

然后我们在午餐时第一次见面。

I feel almost nervous talking about this here.

在这里谈论这个我几乎感到紧张。

The disparity between my sense of who she was as an operator and how she came across to me initially at this lunch was really striking in that it was a weekday lunch and she was dressed as if she was hanging out on the weekend.

我对她作为接线员的认识与她最初在这次午餐中给我的印象之间的差异确实令人震惊，因为这是一顿工作日午餐，而她的穿着就像是在周末闲逛一样。

So old T-shirt, hair back and in a claw, bra straps were showing.

旧T恤，头发向后扎成爪子，胸罩带子都露出来了。

She was just incredibly casual in terms of her physical appearance.

就她的外表而言，她只是非常随意。

It took me almost like a little bit of a step back to reevaluate and think, "Oh, this is the same person, but she actually just presents so differently.

我几乎向后退了一步，重新评估并思考：“哦，这是同一个人，但她实际上表现得如此不同。

Ada Chen Rekhi: So then I took the step after we met and I gave her that feedback in one of our next coaching sessions where we invited each other to give each other feedback.

Ada Chen Rekhi：所以我们见面后我采取了这一步，并在我们接下来的一次辅导课程中向她提供了反馈，我们邀请对方互相提供反馈。

I shared a lot of my impressions with her and I told her, "I respect you so much as an operator.

我和她分享了很多我的印象，我告诉她：“作为一名接线员，我非常尊重你。

I want to tell you that in the physical meeting that we had together, there was this disparity on how I would've potentially perceived you when I first met you in person versus what I've come to know about you from the months that we spent together."

我想告诉你，在我们面对面的会面中，当我第一次见到你时，我对你的看法与我们在一起度过的几个月里我对你的了解存在着差异。”

Ada Chen Rekhi: Her reaction was like, "Oh my God, Ada.

艾达·陈·雷希 (Ada Chen Rekhi)：她的反应就像是：“天啊，艾达。

No one has ever connected the dots for me.

没有人为我把这些点联系起来。

Thank you so much.

太感谢了。

It has never explicitly been told to me that some of these elements which you describe, and they're very easy for me to fix and I'm motivated to fix them, are things that might actually trigger certain impressions or biases.

从来没有明确地告诉我，你所描述的一些元素，对我来说很容易修复，而且我有动力去修复它们，这些元素实际上可能会引发某些印象或偏见。

No one's actually said it to me before, and I'm about to go into fundraising.

以前实际上没有人对我说过这句话，而我即将开始筹款。

It's actually super helpful for me to hear this, that these are controllable elements of my physical attire or my appearance that might actually just affect the way that people perceive me.

听到这个对我来说实际上非常有帮助，这些是我的身体着装或我的外表的可控元素，实际上可能会影响人们对我的看法。

And then it gives me this extra hump to get over, in terms of getting to this point of credibility for them to see me as a seasoned operator that I am." She took it so well.

然后，这给了我一个额外的困难，需要克服，因为要让他们相信我是一个经验丰富的操作员。”她接受得很好。

But what was interesting about it was actually that she'd made it all this way in her career.

但有趣的是，实际上她在职业生涯中取得了这一切。

She'd even raised funding, and no one had ever given her this feedback.

她甚至筹集了资金，但没有人给她这样的反馈。

Ada Chen Rekhi: So this is, I think one of the big challenges of being a woman in Silicon Valley because getting to an executive role or getting to a funded founder role, it's like an Olympic level sport.

Ada Chen Rekhi：我认为这是作为一名硅谷女性面临的巨大挑战之一，因为担任高管职位或获得资助的创始人职位，这就像一项奥运会级别的运动。

You have to get all the way through the funnel and become one of the few that are really chosen to do that.

你必须一路走完这个漏斗，成为少数真正被选中这样做的人之一。

But the difficulty of this game is that no one tells you the rules of the game.

但这个游戏的难点在于没有人告诉你游戏规则。

You actually don't really know what are the rules on how to get intros or give intros.

实际上，您并不真正知道如何获得介绍或进行介绍的规则是什么。

What's the right way to follow up?

正确的跟进方式是什么？

What are the impressions that people have about you?

人们对你的印象如何？

It turns out that in a career context, it's so unsafe for your manager to turn to a young woman on the team and say, "Here, let me give you feedback on your physical appearance, and how it affects your competence and how you're perceived in the workforce." That the vast majority of them will just never do it because there's no winning, which is similar to the feedback that I got.

事实证明，在职业生涯中，你的经理对团队中的年轻女性说：“在这里，让我向你提供有关你的外表的反馈，以及它如何影响你的能力以及你在员工队伍中的形象。”他们中的绝大多数人永远不会这样做，因为没有胜利，这与我得到的反馈类似。

Ada Chen Rekhi: SO where I lean in is to say, we're not powerless and there's something that all of us can do if we're in a position where we feel like not even about being female, it's about being perceived as too young or too old, too tall, too short, not the right race.

艾达·陈·雷希 (Ada Chen Rekhi)：所以我想说的是，我们并不是无能为力，如果我们感觉自己甚至不属于女性，而是被认为太年轻或太老、太高、太矮、不适合种族，那么我们所有人都可以做一些事情。

Whatever reason that you feel people may be disqualifying you or not seeing you.

无论您认为出于何种原因，人们可能会取消您的资格或不与您见面。

We're not powerless, even though this game is rigged.

尽管这个游戏被操纵了，但我们并非无能为力。

We can study the game, we can help each other, and we can actually start to call out some of those rules and then find ways around them.

我们可以研究游戏，我们可以互相帮助，我们实际上可以开始找出其中一些规则，然后找到解决它们的方法。

In this case, for the founder in this example, she really turned to her friends and did a mini makeover and amped up her appearance.

在这种情况下，对于这个例子中的创始人来说，她真的向她的朋友求助，做了一个迷你改造并增强了她的外表。

Ada Chen Rekhi: And she came back and she reported, "A lot of people have been giving me really positive feedback, that something about me feels more confident and more energetic, and they can't figure out why." But actually, she was getting a ton of people noticing that something was really different about her in a positive way simply because I was in this great position as her coach to give her some of these pieces of hard feedback that she had never heard before.

艾达·陈雷希：她回来后报告说，“很多人都给了我非常积极的反馈，我感觉自己更自信、更有活力，但他们不明白为什么。”但实际上，她让很多人注意到她在积极方面确实有所不同，仅仅是因为我作为她的教练处于一个很好的位置，给了她一些她以前从未听过的严厉反馈。

So it's really on us to try to find those and then try to adapt ourselves to play that game if you want to play at that level.

因此，如果你想达到那个水平，我们真的有责任去尝试找到这些，然后尝试调整自己来玩那个游戏。

Lenny: How nervous were you giving her that feedback?

莱尼：你给她反馈时有多紧张？

Ada Chen Rekhi: I was so nervous.

陈瑞希：我很紧张。

I actually almost didn't do it, and then took a deep breath and then decided, what the heck?

我实际上几乎没有这么做，然后深吸了一口气，然后决定，到底是什么？

I think she's great.

我认为她很棒。

I think she would really benefit from doing it and I gave it.

我认为她真的会从这样做中受益，而我也这么做了。

Even in a position where I'm in a relationship with her where I can have that trust, it was super, super difficult.

即使我和她处于一种可以信任的关系中，这也是非常非常困难的。

So I can only imagine how hard it is for people to give feedback like that in another context, but how else are people going to hear it?

所以我只能想象人们在另一种情况下提供这样的反馈是多么困难，但人们还能如何听到它呢？

Lenny: I think there was a company culture where they talk about how you're being selfish, not giving someone hard feedback because you don't want to be stressed or risk causing damage to your own reputation.

莱尼：我认为有一种公司文化，他们谈论你是如何自私的，而不是给别人严厉的反馈，因为你不想承受压力或冒着损害自己声誉的风险。

But you're not helping them.

但你没有帮助他们。

So it's a really interesting insight of just like, don't be selfish.

所以这是一个非常有趣的见解，就像“不要自私”。

Do something that's hard when you think it's going to help someone else.

当你认为某件事会帮助别人时，就去做一些困难的事情。

Ada Chen Rekhi: Right.

陈瑞希：对。

But I think on the topic of being female or on the topic of physical appearance or maybe even some of the topics around being an immigrant, if you're in a position where you can give that feedback, I think the struggle is often will it be well received?

但我认为，关于女性的话题，或者外貌的话题，甚至可能是关于移民的一些话题，如果你处于可以提供反馈的位置，我认为斗争通常是它会受到好评吗？

And that's where the feedback comes from me from the curiosity loop for this piece, which was there's almost no winning in doing it because the upside is something great happens for them.

这就是我从这件作品的好奇心循环中得到的反馈，这样做几乎没有任何胜利，因为好处是他们会发生一些伟大的事情。

But there's just so many downsides to giving advice or giving someone input like that the default course is just to avoid.

但提供建议或向某人提供意见有很多缺点，就像默认课程只是要避免的那样。

But then that person never learns the rules of the game.

但那个人永远不会学习游戏规则。

Lenny: Yeah, absolutely.

莱尼：是的，绝对是。

It makes me think also a little bit about Radical Candor, basically.

基本上，这让我对激进坦率也有了一些思考。

I don't know if you read that book, but

我不知道你是否读过这本书，但是

Ada Chen Rekhi: Yeah, Kim Malone Scott, I think.

艾达·陈·雷希：是的，我想是金·马龙·斯科特。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

And Sheryl Sandberg had a similar story where she...

谢丽尔·桑德伯格也有类似的故事，她……

I think Sheryl Sandberg gave her a really hard feedback and she didn't take it that well, actually.

我认为谢丽尔·桑德伯格给了她一个非常严厉的反馈，但实际上她并没有很好地接受。

I think you did a better job, or your friend actually took the feedback and did something with it.

我认为你做得更好，或者你的朋友实际上接受了反馈并做了一些事情。

I think the whole book was just like, "Hey, I actually do this where people actually listen." I think the framework is, you got to communicate that you care deeply about that person, but you want to challenge them directly also at the same time.

我认为整本书就像是，“嘿，我实际上是在人们真正倾听的地方这样做的。”我认为框架是，你必须传达出你非常关心那个人，但同时你也想直接挑战他们。

Ada Chen Rekhi: Yeah, it's a great story.

艾达·陈瑞希：是的，这是一个很棒的故事。

I think Sheryl Sandberg took her aside after one of her meetings and basically told her that, "If you say um, it makes me sound stupid." And she didn't take that well, but at the same time, later on in retrospect, she reflected that it was so brave and so helpful of someone like Sheryl to go give that feedback because there's a real cost to it.

我认为谢丽尔·桑德伯格在一次会议后把她拉到一边，基本上告诉她，“如果你说嗯，这会让我听起来很愚蠢。”她并没有很好地接受，但与此同时，后来回想起来，她反思说，像谢丽尔这样的人提供反馈是非常勇敢和乐于助人的，因为这是有真正的成本的。

There's real risk to it.

这确实存在风险。

Lenny: Any other thoughts or advice along these lines that you want to leave people with?

莱尼：您还有什么其他想法或建议想留给人们吗？

Ada Chen Rekhi: The biggest piece of advice that I have that comes to mind is really around trying to be really thoughtful on something I call eating your vegetables.

艾达·陈·雷希 (Ada Chen Rekhi)：我想到的最重要的建议实际上是要认真考虑我所说的“吃蔬菜”。

So I have all these branded terms for things, but-

所以我有所有这些品牌术语，但是-

Ada Chen Rekhi: ...

艾达·陈热希：...

eating your vegetables is really this idea around how little kids don't really develop an appreciation for vegetables until they're 10 or 12 exposures in.

吃蔬菜实际上是关于小孩子在接触蔬菜 10 到 12 次之前不会真正培养对蔬菜的欣赏能力的想法。

So the researchers say, "Expose kids to vegetables 10 or 12 times, even if they don't like it, because that's what it takes to get someone to like something." So when I think about career strategy and when I think about improving yourself and I think about how do we look for some of the hard feedback, eating your vegetables is this really important component of it because it's about how do you identify dislike for something because you're bad at it or you're new to it or you've never done it before, compared to genuine dislike where you've done it and you really don't like it.

因此研究人员说，“让孩子们接触蔬菜 10 到 12 次，即使他们不喜欢，因为只有这样才能让某人喜欢某样东西。”因此，当我考虑职业策略，当我考虑提高自己，当我考虑如何寻找一些硬性反馈时，吃蔬菜是其中非常重要的组成部分，因为它关系到你如何识别对某件事的不喜欢，因为你不擅长某件事，或者你是新手，或者你以前从未做过它，与真正不喜欢你做过的事情并且你真的不喜欢它相比。

So to make it a little bit real, if we think about the world of podcasts, Lenny, I think it's something like 75 or 80% of podcasts never make it past the first podcast.

因此，为了让它更真实一些，如果我们考虑一下播客的世界，Lenny，我认为大约 75% 或 80% 的播客从未超越第一个播客。

Ada Chen Rekhi: You have to do things a number of times before you really develop an affinity for it.

Ada Chen Rekhi：你必须把一件事做很多次，才能真正对它产生兴趣。

Because the first time you do it, you're just not going to be good.

因为你第一次这样做，你就不会做得很好。

So my mini example of that was early on in my career, I was really awkward and not very good at networking.

所以我的一个小例子是在我职业生涯的早期，我真的很尴尬而且不太擅长社交。

I moved to Silicon Valley and one of the things that people told me about Silicon Valley was that it's really important to grow your network.

我搬到了硅谷，人们告诉我关于硅谷的一件事是，发展你的网络非常重要。

It's all about the people.

这一切都与人民有关。

Totally agree about that.

完全同意这一点。

However, I didn't know anyone, and I didn't really understand this networking thing.

然而，我不认识任何人，也不太了解网络这个东西。

So I gave myself this rule where I had to go out once a week for a couple of months, go to an external event, and I would count out 10 business cards.

所以我给自己定了一条规则，几个月内我必须每周出去一次，参加外部活动，然后我会数出 10 张名片。

And the rule was, I had to hand out all 10 of those business cards by introducing myself to people that were new, and touch the back wall of the venue of that event and then I could leave.

规则是，我必须向新来的人介绍自己，分发所有 10 张名片，并触摸该活动场地的后墙，然后我才能离开。

Ada Chen Rekhi: I did that a couple of weeks in a row, and it was horrible.

Ada Chen Rekhi：我连续几周都这样做，这太可怕了。

It was really awful, but it got a lot better.

确实很糟糕，但已经好多了。

What I realized about that was actually two things.

我意识到这实际上是两件事。

One that, as I started going and I saw familiar faces, it became a lot easier for me to just break in and meet people, just by seeing who people I knew already were talking to.

其中之一是，当我开始去并看到熟悉的面孔时，对我来说，闯入并结识人们变得容易多了，只需看看我已经认识的人正在与谁交谈。

And then second, I got a lot better at just breaking in and introducing myself and understanding how this intro and networking thing worked in terms of meeting people and moving through a crowd.

其次，我在闯入和自我介绍方面有了很大的进步，并了解这种介绍和社交活动如何在与人会面和穿过人群方面发挥作用。

Some of those relationships now from that first job and those first couple months are pretty much foundational to the network and the people that I know today.

现在，从第一份工作和最初几个月开始的一些关系对于网络和我今天认识的人来说几乎是基础。

So it really paid off for me because I really focused on eating my vegetables and powering through that initial discomfort.

所以这对我来说确实得到了回报，因为我真的专注于吃蔬菜并克服最初的不适。

Ada Chen Rekhi: So to title back when it comes to thinking about how do you progress in your career, think about the obvious things that maybe you're not very good at, and then think about what are some of the actions that you can do to be very deliberate and intentional about practicing it to get to the point where you have some faculty at it because it's just really important in some cases to be good at certain skills.

Ada Chen Rekhi：所以，回到标题，当谈到如何在职业生涯中取得进步时，请考虑一下您可能不太擅长的明显事情，然后考虑一下您可以采取哪些行动来非常谨慎和有意识地进行练习，以达到您在这方面拥有一定能力的程度，因为在某些情况下，擅长某些技能非常重要。

Lenny: I really like that.

莱尼：我真的很喜欢这样。

I also really like the physicality of that rule of touching the back wall.

我也非常喜欢触摸后墙这一规则的物理性。

It just forces you to go through a room, and I just escape really quickly.

它只是迫使你穿过一个房间，而我很快就逃脱了。

Is there any other examples of things you've seen or recommend for doing things like, eating vegetables?

对于吃蔬菜等事情，您是否见过或推荐其他任何例子？

That was a really good example of just forcing yourself to go to a networking event, touch the back wall.

这是一个很好的例子，强迫自己去参加社交活动，触摸后墙。

Is there anything else, any other examples that come to mind that you've recommended or found useful, doing something really hard that was really impactful?

您是否还推荐过其他任何其他例子，或者您认为有用的其他例子，做了一些非常困难且真正有影响力的事情？

Ada Chen Rekhi: Yeah.

艾达·陈瑞希：是的。

So there are actually a few of them.

所以实际上有一些。

A lot of them around content creation because it's just so hard.

其中很多都围绕内容创作，因为这太难了。

So one of them that comes to mind is, I know a lot of people have talked about doing a LinkedIn 30.

所以我想到的其中一个是，我知道很多人都谈论过建立 LinkedIn 30。

So 30 days of posting something on LinkedIn in terms of content every day for 30 days straight, and just getting past that barrier of sharing.

因此，连续 30 天每天在 LinkedIn 上发布一些内容，连续 30 天，就克服了分享的障碍。

And then looking at it over time and seeing out of the things that you posted, what really resonated.

然后随着时间的推移，看看你发布的内容，看看哪些内容真正引起了共鸣。

I also think it's helpful to start thinking about things like getting into DMs.

我还认为开始考虑加入 DM 之类的事情是有帮助的。

Right.

正确的。

It takes a lot of work to think about, "Oh, this person's really smart, let me DM them.

需要花很多功夫去思考：“哦，这个人真的很聪明，让我给他们发私信吧。

Let me try to strike up a conversation because we're well out of the world of physical business cards.

让我尝试开始对话，因为我们已经脱离了实体名片的世界。

I don't think anyone has those anymore.

我认为没有人再拥有这些了。

Ada Chen Rekhi: But modern networking is finding people that are really interesting on the internet and then finding some way to connect with them.

Ada Chen Rekhi：但现代网络是在互联网上寻找真正有趣的人，然后找到某种方式与他们联系。

It takes a certain amount of extroversion in that case to start meeting up with people and having conversations with them.

在这种情况下，需要一定程度的外向才能开始与人们见面并与他们交谈。

So forcing yourself in some way to really think about, "Well, instead of having one outreach and then failing at it and saying, 'I'm never doing that again.' How do I actually create a pattern where I can learn or a sequence of trying to do this 10 or 12 times, and see what I get out of it?" Because that's really how you learn and how you grow.

因此，强迫自己以某种方式真正思考，“好吧，而不是进行一次外展，然后失败并说，‘我再也不会这样做了。’”我如何真正创建一个我可以学习的模式，或者一系列尝试这样做 10 或 12 次，然后看看我从中得到什么？”因为这确实是你学习和成长的方式。

Lenny: The LinkedIn 30 idea, I like a lot.

Lenny：LinkedIn 30 的想法，我非常喜欢。

Something that I'll share as a tip is when you hear that, I bet a lot of people are just like, "Oh, my God.

我要分享的一点是，当你听到这个消息时，我敢打赌很多人都会说，“哦，天哪。

Going to link post on LinkedIn.

将链接到 LinkedIn 上的帖子。

So cringey.

太难堪了。

I don't want to be this self-promotiony LinkedIn person." But what I find is if you reframe it to, "I just want to crystallize a thought that I have and just share something that is useful to me or an insight I've had, and not think of it from, I'm trying to get as many likes.

我不想成为 LinkedIn 上那种自我推销的人。”但我发现，如果你将其重新定义为：“我只是想具体化我的一个想法，只是分享一些对我有用的东西或我的见解，而不是想出来，我只是想获得尽可能多的点赞。

I'm trying to go viral with this post, or I'm trying to just build some following." Just don't think of it that way.

我试图通过这篇文章进行病毒式传播，或者我只是想建立一些追随者。”只是不要那样想。

Think of it as just want to communicate a thought I have and use this opportunity to crystallize it in a really simple way.

将其视为只是想传达我的想法，并利用这个机会以一种非常简单的方式将其具体化。

That helps motivate.

这有助于激励。

That, at least, works for me.

这至少对我有用。

It also ends up being useful for me.

它最终也对我有用。

It's not like I'm trying to grow some following as a result of that.

我并不是想因此而增加一些追随者。

Ada Chen Rekhi: I find that really helpful as well.

Ada Chen Rekhi：我发现这也很有帮助。

One piece of advice that's similar to that that I've heard is, write for an audience of one.

与我听到的类似的一条建议是，为一个读者写作。

Imagine you're just talking to a friend or you're trying to talk to someone that's a trusted colleague, and just write for them.

想象一下，您只是在与朋友交谈，或者您正在尝试与值得信赖的同事交谈，然后为他们写作。

I think that's really helpful, and it helps us with the problem of getting in over your skis, really over fixating on the outcome of, I did a post and I didn't get my 5,000 followers.

我认为这真的很有帮助，它帮助我们解决了滑雪板问题，真的过于关注结果，我发了一篇帖子，但没有得到 5,000 名粉丝。

And instead, just thinking about I did a post because I wanted to share an interesting idea, and then how cool, some people resonated with it.

相反，只是想到我发了一篇帖子，因为我想分享一个有趣的想法，然后多么酷，有些人与它产生了共鸣。

Lenny: Yeah, I love that.

莱尼：是的，我喜欢这个。

You could just even say, something I found useful day one and just approach it that way.

你甚至可以直接说，我第一天就发现有用的东西，然后就这样处理。

That's the stuff that end up being most interesting to people.

这才是人们最感兴趣的东西。

The less it feels like you're trying to be thirsty for followers and likes and all that stuff.

你越不会觉得自己渴望追随者、点赞之类的东西。

And the more it's just like, here's the thing I've found useful.

越是这样，这就是我发现有用的东西。

Enjoy it, if you can.

如果可以的话，享受它吧。

Ada Chen Rekhi: Yeah.

艾达·陈瑞希：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

People can really tell when you're being genuine and authentic online.

人们可以真正看出你在网上是否真诚。

Lenny: Absolutely.

莱尼：当然。

More and more.

越来越多。

Maybe a last question.

也许是最后一个问题。

You started a company with your partner.

您与合作伙伴创办了一家公司。

You're both co-founders, you and your husband.

你们和你的丈夫都是联合创始人。

I'm curious, what's your take on that approach to starting company?

我很好奇，您对这种创办公司的方式有何看法？

Would you recommend for other folks or not?f

你会推荐给其他人吗？f

Ada Chen Rekhi: If you had asked me when I first started the company, it would've been an enthusiastic hell yes.

艾达·陈·雷希 (Ada Chen Rekhi)：如果你问我什么时候创办公司的，我会说那是一个充满热情的地狱，是的。

I totally recommend.

我完全推荐。

Now, I have a couple asterisks on top of it, and-

现在，我在它上面有几个星号，并且-

Ada Chen Rekhi: ...

艾达·陈热希：...

I think it really just goes back to what I was talking about earlier where being a founder is such a traumatic and crazy experience with all these intense highs and lows and lack of structure that when you throw romance into the mix, it's just this really volatile combination.

我认为这实际上又回到了我之前所说的，作为一名创始人是一种如此痛苦和疯狂的经历，伴随着所有这些强烈的高潮和低谷以及缺乏结构，当你将浪漫融入其中时，这只是一种非常不稳定的组合。

So what I've found is that it seems like it either goes really well or it goes really badly, and there's no in between.

所以我发现，事情要么进展得很顺利，要么进展得很糟糕，没有中间状态。

And asterisks are there because we've actually had a couple of friends try it, and it's been such a mixed bag of results.

之所以有星号，是因为我们实际上有几个朋友尝试过，结果好坏参半。

So my personal experience is I love it.

所以我个人的经历是我喜欢它。

My partner Sachin, and I work really well together.

我和我的搭档 Sachin 合作得非常好。

And the main benefit that we have is that the active founding is such an active obsession that you spend so much of your time thinking about your business and the concepts of your business and whatever problem you happen to be facing.

我们的主要好处是，积极的创立是一种积极的痴迷，你会花很多时间思考你的业务、你的业务概念以及你碰巧面临的任何问题。

Ada Chen Rekhi: That when I had this thesis of I want to be a founder too, we played it out and said, "Well, okay, now we're going to walk around being obsessed about two completely different things.

艾达·陈·雷希 (Ada Chen Rekhi)：当我提出“我也想成为一名创始人”这一论点时，我们把它付诸实践并说：“好吧，现在我们要四处走动，痴迷于两种完全不同的事物。

We may never see each other, and so why not try the same thing?" So our first experiment was actually trying it together, and we were nuts.

我们可能永远不会见面，所以为什么不尝试同样的事情呢？”所以我们的第一个实验实际上是一起尝试，我们都疯了。

I actually had a 30, 60 and 90 day plan where we would have check-ins.

事实上，我有一个 30 天、60 天和 90 天的计划，我们会在那里签到。

And some of the explicit questions in the check-in, is this affecting our relationship?

还有入住时提出的一些明确的问题，这会影响我们的关系吗？

Because I just wanted to make sure we were putting our relationship first.

因为我只是想确保我们把我们的关系放在第一位。

It worked well for us to the extent that we've done two companies together.

它对我们来说效果很好，我们已经合作了两家公司。

And then when we were at LinkedIn, we actually moved across multiple teams in the company and continued to be counterparts and product and marketing together.

然后，当我们在LinkedIn时，我们实际上在公司的多个团队中调动过，并继续成为同行，一起产品和营销。

So it's been phenomenal.

所以这是非凡的。

The thing that I would say really helps us in terms of making it a successful relationship was things that I think apply to anyone that's thinking about, should you work with a person and should you be a co-founder with this person?

我想说的真正有助于我们建立成功关系的是，我认为适用于任何正在思考的人，你是否应该与一个人一起工作，你应该与这个人成为联合创始人吗？

Ada Chen Rekhi: We had a very, very good set of complimentary domains and skillsets, so we had really clear decision making rights.

Ada Chen Rekhi：我们拥有一套非常非常好的互补领域和技能组合，因此我们拥有非常明确的决策权。

Sachin does product design and engineering.

Sachin 从事产品设计和工程。

I focus on marketing, operations, finance, everything else on the business side.

我专注于营销、运营、财务以及业务方面的其他一切。

And because of that, it's really clear that we take input from each other, but ultimately who makes the call and who's driving and owning that project.

正因为如此，很明显我们会听取彼此的意见，但最终是谁做出决定，谁在推动和拥有该项目。

So that was really helpful for us.

所以这对我们真的很有帮助。

And then the big part that I think is the murky Meyer for couples and maybe even for close friends working together is how do you engage in constructive conflict?

然后，我认为对于夫妻，甚至对于一起工作的亲密朋友来说，最阴暗的迈耶是如何参与建设性冲突？

How do you get to the point where you're attacking the problem and not each other?

你们如何才能达到只解决问题而不互相攻击的地步？

So if your partner comes to you and says that work was not good, that marketing plan or that product roadmap that you put together, not good, do you take it as the plan is not good and let's talk about what we can actually do to fix it?

因此，如果您的合作伙伴来找您并说工作不好，您制定的营销计划或产品路线图不好，您是否认为计划不好，让我们谈谈我们实际上可以做些什么来解决它？

Ada Chen Rekhi: Or do you take it as, "Oh, gosh, they think I'm not good.

Ada Chen Rekhi：或者你会认为，“哦，天哪，他们认为我不好。

They think I'm too lazy.

他们认为我太懒了。

I saw that look that they were giving me." And take it as this personal offense.

我看到他们用那种眼神看我。”并将其视为个人冒犯。

So the ability to be really truth seeking and take the most respectful interpretation when you're giving feedback to focus on trying to get to a smart good outcome that benefits the business, I think that's actually one of the most crucial things that you have to think about.

因此，当您提供反馈以专注于获得有利于企业的明智良好结果时，能够真正寻求真相并采取最尊重的解释，我认为这实际上是您必须考虑的最重要的事情之一。

If you're going to work with anyone.

如果你要和任何人一起工作。

Much less your partner or a close friend on starting a company and what's really worked for us,

更不用说你的合作伙伴或密友创办公司以及什么对我们真正有用，

Lenny: I am very impressed with how you're able to execute on this.

莱尼：你在这方面的执行力给我留下了深刻的印象。

I don't think I could do this with my wife.

我想我不能和我的妻子做这样的事。

That would not go well, I think.

我认为那不会顺利。

You should probably write-

你可能应该写-

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

No, we're aware.

不，我们知道。

You should write a post on how to successfully build a company with your partner.

您应该写一篇关于如何与您的合作伙伴成功建立公司的文章。

That seems like you have a lot of really interesting frameworks and insights on how it's worked.

看起来你有很多非常有趣的框架和关于它如何工作的见解。

The fact that-

事实是——

Lenny: ...

莱尼：……

for so long.

这么久了。

Yeah, it could be its own little book.

是的，它可能是自己的小书。

Is there anything else you wanted to share or touch on before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想分享或谈及的吗？

Ada Chen Rekhi: I think you covered most of it, Lenny.

Ada Chen Rekhi：我想你已经涵盖了大部分内容，Lenny。

Lenny: With that then, we have reached our very exciting lightning round.

莱尼：这样，我们就进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got five questions for you.

我有五个问题要问你。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

莱尼：你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Ada Chen Rekhi: Persuasion by Robert Cialdini.

艾达·陈·雷希 (Ada Chen Rekhi)：罗伯特·西奥迪尼 (Robert Cialdini) 的《劝说》。

I think it's a great book, if you're a marketer.

如果您是营销人员，我认为这是一本很棒的书。

It's a great book, if you're a founder or product person.

如果您是创始人或产品人员，这将是一本很棒的书。

But it really is a breakdown of what are the different strategies to get people to say yes and help persuade them toward things.

但这确实是对让人们说“是”并帮助说服他们做某事的不同策略的细分。

I think it really helps in terms of thinking through that and designing a product or a business around it.

我认为这对于思考这个问题并围绕它设计产品或业务确实很有帮助。

Lenny: I've got that in my bookshelf behind me.

莱尼：我把它放在我身后的书架上。

Ada Chen Rekhi: Oh, yeah.

艾达·陈瑞希：哦，是的。

It's a great book.

这是一本很棒的书。

Yeah.

是的。

The next book that I also recommend is a book called Designing Your Life, and it's out of the Stanford Design School.

我还推荐的下一本书是一本叫做《设计你的生活》的书，它是斯坦福设计学院出版的。

And it's by, let me look, Bill Burnett and Dave Evans.

让我看看，这是比尔·伯内特和戴夫·埃文斯创作的。

They're two Stanford D School professors, and what they're doing is they're applying design principles to life design.

他们是斯坦福大学 D 学院的两位教授，他们正在做的是将设计原则应用到生活设计中。

So how do you actually map that next level career that's both meaningful and fulfilling and also achieves maybe some of the success factors that you really care about, and brainstorm and be really creative about it.

那么，你如何真正规划下一个阶段的职业生涯，既有意义又充实，而且还能实现你真正关心的一些成功因素，并集思广益并发挥真正的创造力。

So when people are stuck or thinking about career strategy, that's actually one of the books that I always point out for them.

因此，当人们陷入困境或思考职业策略时，这实际上是我总是向他们推荐的一本书。

Lenny: What's a favorite recent movie or TV show?

莱尼：最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Ada Chen Rekhi: So Ted Lasso is back, so I'm watching that, the newest season.

艾达·陈·雷希：特德·拉索回来了，所以我正在看最新一季。

I am also a Star Trek nerd, so I'm watching Star Trek: Strange New Worlds.

我也是《星际迷航》的书呆子，所以我正在观看《星际迷航：奇异新世界》。

Lenny: I didn't know there's a new Star Trek.

莱尼：我不知道有新的《星际迷航》。

That's good to know.

很高兴知道这一点。

Ada Chen Rekhi: Oh, It's so good.

艾达·陈瑞希：哦，太好了。

I think the thing I love about Star Trek is just that, unlike some of the classic storylines that you see right now on TV coming out now, sometimes the episodes are just happy.

我认为我喜欢《星际迷航》的原因就在于，与你现在在电视上看到的一些经典故事情节不同，有时情节很快乐。

They explore a planet.

他们探索一个星球。

Nothing bad happens.

没有什么不好的事情发生。

They see something really wondrous.

他们看到了一些非常奇妙的东西。

They all leave happy, and they pat themselves on the back for having explored something.

他们都很高兴地离开，并为自己探索了一些东西而拍拍自己的背。

It's something that's missing in the genre of TV that they still have, this happiness factor where sometimes life is good and sometimes life is bad.

这是他们仍然拥有的电视类型中所缺少的东西，这种幸福因素，有时生活是美好的，有时生活是糟糕的。

Lenny: I like the sound of that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个声音。

Although, I've learned about storytelling for a story to be interesting.

不过，我已经学会了讲故事，让故事变得有趣。

There needs to be some conflict or problem.

需要有一些冲突或问题。

So I imagine there's something going wrong somewhere in the middle.

所以我想中间某个地方出了问题。

Ada Chen Rekhi: But it's not wrong.

陈瑞希：但这并没有错。

It's something interesting happens.

发生了一些有趣的事情。

Ada Chen Rekhi: And then it's resolved, and it's happy.

陈瑞希：然后就解决了，很开心。

Right.

对。

But it just doesn't always need to be, something tries to kill you.

但并不总是需要这样，有些东西会试图杀死你。

Lenny: I got to watch that.

莱尼：我得看那个。

That sounds great.

听起来很棒。

I was a huge Star Trek fan back in the day.

那时我是《星际迷航》的忠实粉丝。

Didn't know they were still making new ones.

不知道他们还在制作新的。

What's a favorite interview question you like to ask when you're interviewing people?

当你面试别人时，你最喜欢问的面试问题是什么？

Ada Chen Rekhi: What's a common misconception people have about you?

Ada Chen Rekhi：人们对你有什么常见的误解？

I usually like to throw that in toward the end of the interview, and the reason why I think it's really useful is it's a way for me to reset my bias.

我通常喜欢在采访结束时将其加入其中，我认为它真正有用的原因是它是我重置偏见的一种方式。

I may have had a certain impression about them, and this is their opportunity to speak up and say, "Hey, a lot of people think this about me, but it's not true." It's also this reflection of their self-awareness.

我可能对他们有一定的印象，这是他们发声的机会，说：“嘿，很多人对我有这样的看法，但这不是真的。”这也是他们自我意识的反映。

Lenny: Great.

莱尼：太好了。

What are some products that you've recently discovered or use regularly, SaaS products or even consumer fun random products that you want to share?

您最近发现或经常使用的产品有哪些、SaaS 产品，甚至是您想分享的有趣的随机产品？

Ada Chen Rekhi: Yeah.

艾达·陈瑞希：是的。

I can't go through this podcast without giving a shout-out to Notejoy.

我无法在不向 Notejoy 点赞的情况下浏览这个播客。

So Notejoy is a fast and focused notes app for individuals and teams.

因此，Notejoy 是一款适合个人和团队的快速且专注的笔记应用程序。

So that's the company that I work on.

这就是我工作的公司。

So I use it for everything from Noora product roadmaps to my coaching notes, to even prepping for something like this podcast.

所以我用它来做一切事情，从 Noora 产品路线图到我的辅导笔记，甚至为像这个播客这样的东西做准备。

I use Notejoy all the time.

我一直用Notejoy。

Another one that I really use a lot is Captio.

另一种我经常使用的工具是 Captio。

It's been around for a while, but it's a little iOS app.

它已经存在了一段时间，但它只是一个 iOS 小型应用程序。

I don't know if it's on Android, but basically it's a blank notepad.

我不知道它是否在Android上，但基本上它是一个空白记事本。

You can dump your brain into it, and there's one button, and it emails it to you.

你可以把你的大脑投入其中，只需一个按钮，它就会通过电子邮件将其发送给你。

So when I find that I'm really distracted, or I just want to remember something, I use Captio all the time just to quickly capture my ideas.

因此，当我发现自己真的很分心，或者我只是想记住一些事情时，我会一直使用 Captio，只是为了快速捕捉我的想法。

And then I process it later in my inbox.

然后我稍后在收件箱中处理它。

Ada Chen Rekhi: And then something that I just downloaded this week is Arc, the new browser.

Ada Chen Rekhi：我这周刚刚下载的东西是 Arc，新的浏览器。

I'm actually really excited about its vision.

事实上，我对它的愿景感到非常兴奋。

I'm not sure if I'm going to work it into my workflow yet or how it fits in, but it's really beautiful and it's really cool to see someone iterating on the cluster that is browser tabs.

我不确定我是否会将其应用到我的工作流程中，或者它如何适应，但它真的很漂亮，而且看到有人在浏览器选项卡集群上进行迭代真的很酷。

Lenny: Yep.

莱尼：是的。

Love Arc.

爱弧。

Went deep on Arc in the previous episode and I used Captio, however you call it.

在上一集中深入讨论了 Arc，我使用了 Captio，不管你怎么称呼它。

And I found another app, actually, the similar thing that I found even more simple.

我发现了另一个应用程序，实际上，类似的东西我发现更简单。

It's called Note to Self, just sits on my doc.

它叫做“自我笔记”，就放在我的文档上。

Anytime I want to email myself a thought, I open it up and this type of thing.

每当我想通过电子邮件给自己发送一个想法时，我都会打开它，诸如此类的事情。

Somehow, it ends up being even easier.

不知何故，它最终变得更加容易。

So that's another one to check out, Note to Self.

这是另一本值得一看的书，《自我提醒》。

Final question.

最后一个问题。

You're really big on productivity.

你真的很注重生产力。

What's one tip that you found that has been really helpful for you in your day-to-day life, being more productive?

您发现哪一条技巧对您的日常生活真正有帮助，可以提高工作效率？

Ada Chen Rekhi: Figure out, maybe the night before, the one thing that you want to get done in your day, and then at the earliest opportunity, just try to give yourself five minutes on it.

艾达·陈·雷希 (Ada Chen Rekhi)：也许是在前一天晚上，弄清楚你一天中想要完成的一件事，然后尽早尝试给自己五分钟的时间。

Just five minutes.

只需五分钟。

And the reason why I say five minutes is that there is this challenge that I experience and maybe other people experience as well, which is really just productive procrastination.

我之所以说五分钟，是因为我经历过这个挑战，也许其他人也经历过，这实际上只是富有成效的拖延。

Even though I know something is really important that needs to get done, I will often do other things that are useful and need to get done simply because I'm avoiding that one thing.

尽管我知道有些事情非常重要需要完成，但我经常会做其他有用且需要完成的事情，仅仅是因为我在避免那一件事。

And then before you know it's the end of the day and I'm like, "I still have to go do that thing." By really focusing on what's the number one thing and then just getting started on it a little bit.

然后，在你意识到这一天结束之前，我就想，“我仍然必须去做那件事。”真正专注于最重要的事情，然后开始做一点点。

It just makes it really lightweight.

它只是让它变得非常轻。

And usually, what I find is that five minutes turns into a solid hour just knocking that thing out early in my day, and I feel really accomplished.

通常情况下，我发现五分钟就变成了整整一个小时，只要在一天的早些时候解决掉那件事，我就感到非常有成就感。

But it's a mental hurdle that I really struggle with.

但这是我真正挣扎的一个心理障碍。

Lenny: I really like the approach of the five minutes because that's such a trick to get you to like, "All right, I'll just do five minutes.

莱尼：我真的很喜欢五分钟的做法，因为这是一个让你喜欢的技巧，“好吧，我只做五分钟。

I got to get this done."

我必须完成这件事。”

Lenny: I need to bring it.

莱尼：我需要把它带来。

Yeah.

是的。

There's a book that many people on this podcast have recommended called Make Time, and there's a framework within that called The Highlight, where you pick the highlight of your day, and that's the thing you got to do first and make...

这个播客上的很多人都推荐了一本书，叫做《Make Time》，里面有一个叫做《亮点》的框架，你可以在其中选择一天中的亮点，这就是你首先要做的事情，然后......

That's like, if you do nothing else, do your highlight and-

这就像，如果你什么都不做，就做你的亮点然后——

Lenny: Yeah, and they don't do the five-minute thing, so I think that's a clever element of it.

莱尼：是的，他们不做五分钟的事情，所以我认为这是一个聪明的元素。

Ada, this was amazing.

艾达，这太棒了。

This chat was full of feelings, and frogs, and vegetables, and frameworks and insights.

这次聊天充满了感触，有青蛙，有蔬菜，有框架，有见解。

Thank you again so much for being here.

再次非常感谢您来到这里。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to learn more, reach out and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想了解更多信息、想要联系您，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Ada Chen Rekhi: You can find me online.

Ada Chen Rekhi：你可以在网上找到我。

On Twitter and LinkedIn, I'm Ada Chen, A-D-A-C-H-E-N.

在 Twitter 和 LinkedIn 上，我是 Ada Chen，A-D-A-C-H-E-N。

I have a website, adachen.com, and you can always just shoot me an email, adachen@gmail.com.

我有一个网站 adachen.com，您可以随时给我发电子邮件 adachen@gmail.com。

In terms of how listeners can be useful to me, any feedback and riffs on some of the ideas and topics that we've shared.

关于听众如何对我有用，关于我们分享的一些想法和主题的任何反馈和即兴表演。

I'm always eager to learn from other people.

我总是渴望向别人学习。

So feel free to drop a note and say hello.

因此，请随时留言并打个招呼。

And if you're a founder and you're interested in learning more about coaching, I'm always happy to talk.

如果您是创始人并且有兴趣了解更多有关教练的知识，我总是很乐意与您交谈。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

And then Notejoy, how do they check that out?

然后 Notejoy，他们如何检查这一点？

Lenny: So easy.

莱尼： 太简单了。

Great domain.

伟大的领域。

Ada, thank you again.

艾达，再次谢谢你。

Lenny: Bye everyone.

莱尼：大家再见。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。