savage landscapes with cal flyn

What is wilderness when seven billion people share the planet and nowhere remains truly untouched?

当 70 亿人共享地球而没有任何地方真正未受破坏时，荒野是什么？

Author and journalist Cal Flyn discusses her book The Savage Landscape with EconTalk host Russ Roberts , weaving together journeys to some of Earth's most remote places, including a live volcanic eruption in Iceland she hiked toward despite the danger.

作家兼记者卡尔·弗林 (Cal Flyn) 与 EconTalk 主持人拉斯·罗伯茨 (Russ Roberts) 讨论了她的书《野蛮风景》(The Savage Landscape)，其中编织了前往地球上一些最偏远地区的旅程，其中包括她不顾危险徒步前往的冰岛火山喷发地。

Flyn rejects the myth of pristine, unpeopled wilderness, revealing that the wildest-looking landscapes have been shaped by humans for centuries.

弗林否认了原始、无人居住的荒野的神话，他揭示了几个世纪以来人类塑造了最狂野的景观。

She explores spiritual quests at Mount Sinai, the return of predators to Europe, the uncomfortable economics of trophy hunting, and why we secretly crave discomfort in an age of endless comfort.

她探索了西奈山的精神追求、掠夺者返回欧洲、战利品狩猎带来的令人不安的经济状况，以及为什么我们在一个无限舒适的时代暗自渴望不适。

A related reading that I am disappointed was not mentioned is a landmark essay by the environmental historian and geographer, William Cronon, “The Trouble With Wilderness” .

令我失望的是，环境历史学家和地理学家威廉·克罗农 (William Cronon) 撰写的一篇具有里程碑意义的文章《荒野的麻烦》没有被提及，对此我感到很失望。

This was the lead essay in a 1995 book Cronon edited, Uncommon Ground: Rethinking the Human Place in Nature , which derived from a semester-long seminar of leading environmental scholars hosted by UC-Irvine’s Humanities Research Institute.

这是克罗农 1995 年编辑的《不寻常的基础：重新思考人类在自然中的地位》一书中的主要文章，该书源自加州大学欧文分校人文研究所主办的为期一个学期的顶尖环境学者研讨会。

Another guide to the rich academic literature questioning the idea of wilderness, focused on the American hemisphere, in Charles Mann’s 1491 .

查尔斯·曼 (Charles Mann) 于 1491 年出版的另一本丰富的学术文献指南对荒野的概念提出了质疑，重点关注美洲半球。

It seems to me that the relationship between the human and natural worlds is in constant flux as every individual decides where and how to live their lives.

在我看来，随着每个人决定在哪里以及如何生活，人类与自然世界之间的关系不断变化。

The long passage from Cal Flyn’s book that Russ read around the 56 minute point struck me as an echo of Henry David Thoreau’s somewhat famous passage from “Walden or Life in the Woods” published in 1854:

拉斯在第 56 分钟左右读到的卡尔·弗林书中的长一段话给我留下了深刻的印象，它与亨利·大卫·梭罗 1854 年出版的《瓦尔登湖或林中生活》中颇为著名的一段话相呼应：

“I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived.

“我走进树林，是因为我希望认真地生活，只面对生活的基本事实，看看我是否能学到它所教的东西，而不是当我临终时，发现我没有活过。

I did not wish to live what was not life, living is so dear; nor did I wish to practice resignation, unless it was quite necessary.

我不想过不属于生活的生活，生活是如此珍贵；我也不想实行辞职，除非非常必要。

I wanted to live deep and suck out all the marrow of life, to live so sturdily and Spartan-like as to put to rout all that was not life, to cut a broad swath and shave close, to drive life into a corner, and reduce it to its lowest terms, and, if it proved to be mean, why then to get the whole and genuine meanness of it, and publish its meanness to the world; or if it were sublime, to know it by experience, and be able to give a true account of it in my next excursion.” Walden; or Life in the Woods | Environment & Society Portal

我想要活得深刻，汲取生命的全部精髓，活得如此坚强，斯巴达式地生活，以击溃所有非生命的东西，大刀阔斧地砍掉一切，把生命逼入角落，把它压缩到最低限度，如果它被证明是卑鄙的，那么为什么要彻底了解它的卑鄙，并将其卑鄙公之于世呢？或者如果它是崇高的，通过经验来了解它，并能够在我的下一次旅行中真实地描述它。”瓦尔登湖；或林中生活|环境与社会门户网站

I suspect there are similar quotes from earlier times, maybe including the Stoics.

我怀疑早期也有类似的引述，也许包括斯多葛学派。

Additional ideas and people mentioned in this podcast episode:

本播客节目中提到的其他想法和人物：

A few more readings and background resources:

更多阅读材料和背景资源：

More related EconTalk podcast episodes, by Category:

更多相关的 EconTalk 播客剧集，按类别：

* As an Amazon Associate, Econlib earns from qualifying purchases.

* 作为亚马逊合作伙伴，Econlib 通过符合条件的购买赚取收入。

Russ Roberts: Today is June 29th, 2026, and my guest is author and journalist Cal Flyn.

拉斯·罗伯茨：今天是 2026 年 6 月 29 日，我的嘉宾是作家兼记者卡尔·弗林。

Her latest book, and the topic for today's conversation, is The Savage Landscape: How We Made the Wilderness .

她的最新著作，也是今天谈话的主题，是《野蛮的风景：我们如何创造荒野》。

Cal, welcome to EconTalk.

卡尔，欢迎来到 EconTalk。

Cal Flyn: Well, thank you so much for having me.

卡尔·弗林：嗯，非常感谢你邀请我。

Russ Roberts: This book, as I read it, is about a paradox.

拉斯·罗伯茨：我读到的这本书是关于一个悖论的。

Wilderness is, in some sense, in a world of seven billion people, an illusion.

从某种意义上说，荒野对于一个拥有 70 亿人口的世界来说是一种幻觉。

The experience of wilderness is something of a paradox.

荒野的经历有点矛盾。

After all, you're in it.

毕竟，你也在其中。

And so, the idea that it's untrammeled and pristine literally can't be true if you're in it.

因此，如果你身处其中，那么“不受约束、原始的想法”就不可能是真的。

And yet, despite that, and despite the challenges we might have in defining it, somehow this concept, and whatever taste we get of it, speaks deeply to us in ways that are hard to understand, hard to articulate.

然而，尽管如此，尽管我们在定义它时可能面临挑战，但不知何故，这个概念，以及无论我们对它的品味如何，都以难以理解、难以表达的方式深刻地向我们诉说。

And this book does its best to do so in many different voices and in many ways.

本书尽最大努力以多种不同的声音和多种方式来做到这一点。

And, it's beautifully written.

而且，它写得很漂亮。

Really, it's as good an example of what might be called nature writing as I've read in a long, long time.

确实，这是我很长一段时间以来读到的所谓自然写作的一个很好的例子。

So, congratulations.

那么，恭喜你。

Russ Roberts: Say something about the title, The Savage Landscape: How We Made the Wilderness .

拉斯·罗伯茨：谈谈标题《野蛮的风景：我们如何创造荒野》。

Cal Flyn: So, the title is gesturing towards a couple of different things when I'm thinking about wilderness as a concept.

卡尔·弗林：所以，当我将荒野视为一个概念时，这个标题暗示了一些不同的事情。

So, first of all, the wilderness is something that is inherently frightening: that this is part of what marks it apart from the pastoral landscape or the purely picturesque.

因此，首先，荒野本质上是令人恐惧的：这是它与田园风光或纯粹风景如画的区别的一部分。

The wilderness is somewhere where we have historically gone to move into a region that is the territory of others, whether that be other species, for sure.

荒野是我们历史上进入其他人领土的地方，无论是其他物种，当然。

It might be other people.

可能是其他人。

And, it might even be other worlds, because it's also a concept that's been tangled up with the ethereal, or the transcendent, or the theological.

而且，它甚至可能是其他世界，因为它也是一个与空灵、超然或神学纠缠在一起的概念。

It's also got this word in there, 'savage,' which is a very complicated word because it's often been applied to people.

里面还有一个词“野蛮”，这是一个非常复杂的词，因为它经常被应用于人。

And, as we'll hear, I'm sure, this idea of wilderness is often tied up with ideas of other people, and these other people being foreign and savage in some way: that these are wild people of a wild place.

而且，正如我们将听到的，我确信，这种荒野的想法常常与其他人的想法联系在一起，而这些其他人在某种程度上是外国人和野蛮人：他们是荒野地方的野人。

And, this is a very culturally relative term.

而且，这是一个在文化上非常相关的术语。

You can see that it's slippery.

你可以看到它很滑。

If you speak to one set of people, they will believe that the savages live elsewhere.

如果你与一组人交谈，他们会相信野蛮人住在其他地方。

Nobody believes themselves to be a savage.

没有人相信自己是野蛮人。

And so the savage landscape is a peopled, wild place.

因此，这片未开化的土地是一个人口稠密、狂野的地方。

And, as I discovered in my book, historic concepts of wilderness were actually traditionally peopled.

而且，正如我在书中发现的那样，荒野的历史概念实际上传统上是有人居住的。

It's only relatively recently that we've come to see wilderness as being a non-peopled place, and that's caused its own problems.

直到最近，我们才开始将荒野视为无人居住的地方，而这也造成了它自己的问题。

Russ Roberts: Well, I like the title.

拉斯·罗伯茨：嗯，我喜欢这个标题。

You could have called it the exotic landscape, because wilderness is also exotic.

你可以称其为异国风景，因为荒野也是异国情调。

But, savage is a very, obviously, primal and visceral word, and it grabs your attention, or the reader's attention.

但是，“野蛮”是一个非常、明显、原始和发自内心的词，它会吸引你的注意力，或者读者的注意力。

Russ Roberts: Talk about the process of writing this book.

Russ Roberts：谈谈写这本书的过程。

You have some incredible experiences.

你有一些令人难以置信的经历。

Some of them perhaps took place before you had the idea of the book.

其中一些可能发生在你产生这本书的想法之前。

But, how long did it take you to write it?

但是，你花了多长时间来写呢？

And, where did you travel to experience what you wanted to write about?

而且，您去哪里旅行以体验您想写的内容？

Cal Flyn: Yeah.

卡尔·弗林：是的。

I've been working on this project, properly, I would say, for around four years.

我想说，我已经为这个项目工作了大约四年。

That's how long it took to research and write it.

这就是研究和写它花了多长时间。

But, as you say, it's an outgrowth of long-running interests of my own.

但是，正如你所说，这是我个人长期利益的产物。

You mentioned that word 'primal,' and I think that that is such an important thing to me.

你提到“原始”这个词，我认为这对我来说非常重要。

When I think about writing about landscape and nature and the environment, I'm often looking for issues that get a reaction out of myself, and hopefully other people as well, so that this might be a place that I find to be frightening, or it might be invigorating, it might be enthralling.

当我考虑写关于风景、自然和环境的文章时，我经常寻找能引起我自己反应的问题，希望其他人也能做出反应，这样这可能是一个我觉得可怕的地方，或者它可能是令人振奋的，它可能是令人着迷的。

And, also, issues that are provocative, or make me think, make me take a back step, and realize that I've actually been understanding the world through a really particular lens that's all to do with my own background and my own stories.

而且，还有一些具有挑衅性的问题，或者让我思考的问题，让我后退一步，并意识到我实际上是通过一个非常特殊的镜头来理解世界的，这与我自己的背景和我自己的故事有关。

So, The Savage Landscape : I describe it as a history of wilderness.

所以，《野蛮的风景》：我把它描述为一部荒野的历史。

It traces the evolution of this concept over centuries, starting from theological spiritual ideas, moving up through aesthetics, moving into environmental conservation, and finally, into this new phase that we're looking at now, which is maybe trying to combine scientific and more traditional ways of looking at landscape, and landscape management, and stewardship, and all of these things that are becoming buzzwords today.

它追溯了这个概念几个世纪以来的演变，从神学精神思想开始，通过美学，进入环境保护，最后进入我们现在看到的这个新阶段，这可能试图将科学和更传统的景观看待方式、景观管理和管理以及所有这些今天成为流行语的东西结合起来。

And I tell this story, or this bigger story, through a series of 10 journeys to different places around the world.

我通过前往世界各地的 10 次旅行来讲述这个故事，或者说这个更大的故事。

So, these were often the wildest or most isolated places I could think of, places that have been termed 'wilderness.' And I suppose I was going out there because I was trying to track down real-life examples of wilderness, if they existed.

因此，这些通常是我能想到的最荒凉或最偏僻的地方，被称为“荒野”的地方。我想我之所以去那里是因为我试图追踪现实生活中荒野的例子，如果它们存在的话。

And, I kept finding they were slippering away over the hill every time I tried to land on it or walk through it.

而且，每次我试图降落在山上或穿过山时，我总是发现它们正在从山上溜走。

And so, that's the Amazon, in places.

所以，在某些地方，这就是亚马逊。

I went to the Yanomami Indigenous Reserve to speak to people there about their relationship to the landscape they live in, which is often described as one of the last wildernesses on Earth.

我去了亚诺马米土著保护区，与那里的人们谈论他们与他们所居住的景观的关系，那里通常被描述为地球上最后的荒野之一。

So, I went to Antarctica, and there started thinking a lot about these shifting landscapes that we have, because there it's very literal.

所以，我去了南极洲，在那里开始思考我们所拥有的这些不断变化的景观，因为那里的情况非常真实。

The ice itself is forming and reforming.

冰本身正在形成和重组。

But also, to places like modern-day Transylvania, to talk about the rise of apex predators there, which is a pattern we'll see across Europe, now that so many more of these animals are under protection and have been under protection for some decades now.

而且，到像现代特兰西瓦尼亚这样的地方，谈论那里顶级掠食者的崛起，这是我们将在整个欧洲看到的一种模式，现在有更多的此类动物受到保护，并且已经受到保护几十年了。

We're seeing rises in the population of wild animals that we associate with the wilderness.

我们看到与荒野相关的野生动物数量不断增加。

And then, to remote groups living in more traditional fashions, in, for example, high up in the mountains of Nepal, where I spoke to the people of Dolpo, which is a Bon culture [a pre-Buddhist culture--Econlib Ed.]: they worship animist/Tibetan-Buddhist religion.

然后，对于以更传统方式生活的偏远群体，例如在尼泊尔高山上，我在那里与多尔波人民交谈，这是一种苯教文化[一种前佛教文化——Econlib Ed.]：他们崇拜万物有灵论/藏传佛教宗教。

And I was very interested in how they, again, relate to the land around them.

我对它们与周围土地的关系非常感兴趣。

And, I wanted to speak to them, and also to think about how we might use concepts they think about the world to apply to our own present-day land management ideas in the West.

而且，我想与他们交谈，并思考我们如何将他们对世界的看法应用到我们当今西方的土地管理理念中。

Russ Roberts: You also went to Mount Sinai, or at least what we think is Mount Sinai.

拉斯·罗伯茨：你也去了西奈山，或者至少我们认为是西奈山。

You went into the depths of the ocean, which we don't normally think of as wilderness, which I thought was really quite interesting.

你进入了海洋深处，我们通常不认为这是荒野，我认为这真的很有趣。

Are you a capable person in the outdoors?

你是一个在户外有能力的人吗？

Would you describe yourself as a capable person?

您认为自己是一个有能力的人吗？

Cal Flyn: That's an interesting question.

卡尔·弗林：这是一个有趣的问题。

I'm not a professional athlete.

我不是职业运动员。

I'm much more of a--I can really stick at things.

我更能坚持做事情。

I'm tenacious.

我很顽强。

So, I'm capable in as much as I can often keep it together.

所以，我有能力尽可能地把它保持在一起。

I like to have my system of what I've got in my pack.

我喜欢把我的包里的东西都放在我的系统里。

I like to be prepared.

我喜欢做好准备。

And, if I have to do a long and physically arduous journey, I can do that.

而且，如果我必须进行长途且艰苦的旅行，我也可以做到。

I can apply myself and keep going.

我可以努力并继续前进。

I wouldn't say that the physical elements of it come naturally to me.

我不会说它的物理元素对我来说是自然而然的。

I'm quite a small woman.

我真是个小女人。

I'm quite short-statured, all of this kind of thing.

我身材矮小，都是这样的。

And I think, temperamentally, I've tried to make myself capable.

我认为，从性格上来说，我已经努力让自己变得有能力。

I really admire the capable people that I come across and meet in wild places.

我真的很佩服在野外遇到和遇到的有能力的人。

I was always involved in horses and dogs when I was growing up.

在我成长的过程中，我总是和马和狗打交道。

And so, I've always been surrounded by incredibly capable people and been relatively uncapable in comparison.

因此，我周围总是有非常有能力的人，而相比之下，我的能力相对较差。

So, I think I aspire to that.

所以，我想我渴望这一点。

Yeah.

是的。

Russ Roberts: But, I ask because you do a lot of scary things in this book.

拉斯·罗伯茨：但是，我问这个问题是因为你在这本书中做了很多可怕的事情。

We'll talk about some of them.

我们将讨论其中的一些。

You're in danger.

你有危险了。

You're in physical danger, a number of places in the book.

在书中的很多地方，你都处于人身危险之中。

And you reflect on past experiences of yours that had physical danger.

你会反思自己过去遭遇人身危险的经历。

And you're t ested .

而且你已经被测试了。

And it felt to me--that was part of what you're trying to experience.

我觉得——这就是你想要体验的一部分。

So, it's not enough to go into a beautiful place or a transcendent, aesthetically pleasing landscape when there's predators around--just for an example.

因此，当周围有掠食者时，仅仅进入一个美丽的地方或超然的、美观的风景是不够的——仅举个例子。

There's a number of bears in this book.

这本书里有很多熊。

There are wolves in this book.

这本书里有狼。

When you're around those kind of creatures, you have to know how to handle yourself, or at least be comfortable handling yourself, even if it's a bit of an illusion.

当你和这些生物在一起时，你必须知道如何处理自己，或者至少能够轻松地处理自己，即使这有点幻觉。

And, I assume you've had a reasonable amount of experience dealing with that.

而且，我认为您在处理这方面已经有相当多的经验了。

As well as, you know, a snowstorm in the middle of a pleasant summer hike, where all of a sudden you realize you can't see and you're perhaps putting your life at risk.

还有，你知道，在一次愉快的夏季徒步旅行中遇到一场暴风雪，你突然意识到自己看不到东西，并且可能将自己的生命置于危险之中。

Cal Flyn: Yeah.

卡尔·弗林：是的。

It's really an interesting question.

这确实是一个有趣的问题。

Questions of safety, risk, bravery, all of these things are so tied up in perception.

安全、风险、勇敢的问题，所有这些问题都与感知息息相关。

I'm really fascinated by it, actually, because sometimes when I'm most at physical risk, I feel okay for no real reason.

事实上，我真的很着迷，因为有时当我面临最大的身体风险时，我会无缘无故地感觉很好。

Perhaps I'm with people who seem confident, and I soak up their confidence.

也许我和那些看起来很自信的人在一起，我吸收了他们的自信。

And, other times, I will just be walking somewhere that is objectively safe, but there's something in the air that sets the hair on the back of my neck going up.

而且，其他时候，我只是走到一个客观上安全的地方，但空气中的某种东西让我脖子后面的头发竖起来。

And so, that sense of safety or risk, or whatever it is, is so shape-shifting.

因此，这种安全感或风险感，或者无论是什么，都在发生着巨大的变化。

And, I'm fascinated by that.

而且，我对此很着迷。

I seem to always come back to this in my writing.

我似乎总是在写作中回到这一点。

I'm really interested in where the edge of comfort is, and where we perceive that to be, and what we gain from pushing those boundaries.

我真的很感兴趣的是舒适的边缘在哪里，我们认为舒适的边缘在哪里，以及我们从突破这些界限中获得什么。

So, really, the writing of this book, to me, was almost a kind of wilderness trial in itself.

所以，实际上，对我来说，写这本书本身几乎就是一种荒野考验。

The classic wilderness quest in which you go out into a strange place, you meet things you don't really understand, they force you to reconsider.

在经典的荒野探索中，你进入一个陌生的地方，遇到一些你不太理解的事情，它们迫使你重新考虑。

It's difficult.

它很难。

You wrestle with your emotions, your mettle.

你与你的情绪、你的勇气作斗争。

And then you come back changed.

然后你回来就变了。

And, that book has definitely been that for me.

而且，那本书绝对适合我。

It has not been an easy book to research or to write, for me.

对我来说，研究或写作这本书并不容易。

It's been quite a long process, and quite grueling, both physically, but also mentally, intellectually, like getting my head around concepts.

这是一个相当漫长的过程，而且相当累人，无论是身体上，还是精神上、智力上，就像让我的头脑思考概念一样。

Russ Roberts: I'll just add that when you test yourself like that, you're also tested by the tools that you have with you, because by definition you can't take everything you're going to need.

拉斯·罗伯茨：我想补充一点，当你这样测试自己时，你也会受到你随身携带的工具的测试，因为根据定义，你不能接受你需要的一切。

You're going to have to improvise.

你必须即兴发挥。

And you're going to find sometimes that you don't have the thing that you really needed at that moment.

有时你会发现你没有当时真正需要的东西。

And--I don't know: I think there's--we'll talk at the end, I hope, about how common or uncommon the desire to experience that is.

而且——我不知道：我想——我希望我们最后会讨论体验这种体验的愿望是多么普遍或不常见。

But, it's clear from reading the book that it's not just, 'Well, I held my nose because it was a little dangerous and I wanted to get my book done.' It was--the essence of what the book was, was dealing with physical and intellectual--not the right word--physical and psychological challenges of being out of your comfort zone.

但是，从阅读这本书中可以清楚地看出，这不仅仅是“好吧，我捂着鼻子，因为这有点危险，我想完成我的书。”这本书的本质是，处理走出舒适区带来的身体和智力上的挑战——不是正确的词——身体和心理上的挑战。

Cal Flyn: Definitely.

卡尔·弗林：当然。

Yeah.

是的。

I've been thinking about it a lot, of how often while I was reporting or researching in the field, I'd often feel like I'd run up against what the chapter was about , when I started to feel this incredible all-body discomfort.

我一直在思考这个问题，当我在该领域进行报告或研究时，当我开始感到这种令人难以置信的全身不适时，我经常会觉得自己遇到了本章所讲的内容。

It was, like, 'Okay, right.

就像，‘好吧，对。

So, I'm quite frightened.' Or, the ideas that I'm battling back and forth with someone and having--they're making me feel really unsettled in some way.

所以，我很害怕。或者，我与某人反复争论并拥有的想法——它们让我在某种程度上感到非常不安。

And to me, that's always been incredibly exciting.

对我来说，这总是令人难以置信的令人兴奋。

It means that I'm not resting.

这意味着我没有休息。

That, I'm really getting to the meat of something, that I'm at the edge of everything that I thought to be solid and is just getting a little bit springy.

那，我真的正在触及某些东西的本质，我处于一切我认为坚固的事物的边缘，只是变得有点弹性。

It's getting a little bit shaky.

它变得有点摇摇欲坠。

So, I guess I write a lot about ethics, recently, in terms of how we deal with other species, and how we can be good neighbors or good peers or colleagues, or whatever you want to call it, on this planet.

所以，我想我最近写了很多关于道德的文章，涉及我们如何与其他物种打交道，以及我们如何在这个星球上成为好邻居、好同伴或同事，或者无论你怎么称呼它。

That we can see other species as having their own agendas, and being adults like us: that animals, and plants, and so on are making their own decisions constantly.

我们可以看到其他物种有自己的议程，并且像我们一样是成年人：动物和植物等不断地做出自己的决定。

And, I don't like to see myself as at the top of a hierarchy.

而且，我不喜欢将自己视为处于等级制度的顶端。

And so, I think going into a wild place where I'm surrounded by other species that are more at home than I am, that, that is a humbling mechanism.

所以，我认为进入一个野生地方，周围都是比我更自在的其他物种，这是一种令人谦卑的机制。

And so, that I find to be confronting, but exciting.

因此，我觉得这是一种对抗，但又令人兴奋。

So, for example, I have a chapter when I look at the history of hunting reserves, and how a lot of our ideas of wilderness are tied up in these sort of artificially created zones of recreation or experience.

例如，我有一章介绍了狩猎保护区的历史，以及我们对荒野的许多想法是如何与这些人工创造的娱乐或体验区联系在一起的。

And that those were places where kings or lords or aristocrats, over time, would go again to test their mettle: that they want to be confronted and challenged.

随着时间的推移，这些地方是国王、领主或贵族会再次去测试他们勇气的地方：他们想要面对和挑战。

And, the modern-day ethics of trophy hunting was something that I was confronting there.

而且，现代战利品狩猎的道德规范是我在那里面临的问题。

But it's also in the physical journey.

但这也是在物理旅程中。

I like to take ideas and issues and find them embodied in the world in some way.

我喜欢接受想法和问题，并发现它们以某种方式体现在世界上。

I think that's a great way to communicate issues, rather than talking about them always at a theoretical level or a statistical level.

我认为这是沟通问题的好方法，而不是总是在理论层面或统计层面上讨论问题。

Were there places you wanted to go but couldn't, to write this book?

为了写这本书，有哪些地方是你想去却不能去的吗？

Experiences you wanted to have, it just didn't work out?

您想要的体验却没有实现？

Cal Flyn: There is one.

卡尔·弗林：有一个。

I'm really interested in other countries' approaches to, for example, the National Park or the Wilderness Reserve.

我对其他国家的做法非常感兴趣，例如国家公园或荒野保护区。

And, the Soviets brought in a system in the 20th century called the--they have the zapovednik , which is equivalent to the American National Park model, but it's rather stricter.

而且，苏联人在20世纪引入了一个名为“zapovednik”的制度，相当于美国国家公园模式，但更严格。

And, it's been battered around a lot during the political changes that they've had in Russia over the last century.

而且，在上个世纪俄罗斯的政治变革中，它受到了很大的打击。

But, nevertheless, it's a really interesting model, and these regions are often very big.

但是，尽管如此，这是一个非常有趣的模型，而且这些区域通常非常大。

They're under a lot of control.

他们受到很大的控制。

It's quite an imperial way of running nature reserves.

这是管理自然保护区的一种帝王方式。

And, I really wanted to get out to some of these, to experience a similar, but really a parallel, system.

而且，我真的很想尝试其中的一些，体验一个类似但实际上是并行的系统。

Unfortunately, the Russian-Ukrainian War began around the time that I was initially looking into traveling out there.

不幸的是，俄罗斯-乌克兰战争在我最初考虑去那里旅行的时候开始。

And, I decided it wasn't quite the moment, but maybe that could be an essay for another time.

而且，我认为现在还不是时候，但也许这可以作为另一次的文章。

Russ Roberts: Let's start with--we're not going to be able to go through every chapter, every concept, but I want to start thinking about wilderness as a spiritual quest, which is the first concept you look at.

拉斯·罗伯茨（Russ Roberts）：让我们首先——我们无法遍历每一章、每个概念，但我想开始将荒野视为一种精神追求，这是你看到的第一个概念。

Two questions.

两个问题。

First, describe what, historically, human beings have turned to the wilderness for to commune with the divine or something transcendent.

首先，描述历史上人类转向荒野是为了与神灵或超凡的事物交流。

And, did you feel anything at Mount Sinai?

那么，你在西奈山有什么感觉吗？

So, give me those two things, if you can.

所以，如果可以的话，请给我这两件事。

Cal Flyn: Absolutely.

卡尔·弗林：当然。

Yeah.

是的。

Sinai, to me, as a sort of opening sequence, helped me think about the role that wilderness has played, not only in the Abrahamic religions, but across many religions across time, really.

对我来说，西奈半岛作为一种开场序列，帮助我思考荒野所扮演的角色，不仅在亚伯拉罕宗教中，而且在不同时期的许多宗教中，确实如此。

So, some of the earliest recorded literature that we have, the Sumerians were writing about wilderness quests--about going into the wilderness in search of transcendence of a kind.

因此，在我们拥有的一些最早记录的文献中，苏美尔人写的是关于荒野探索的内容——关于进入荒野寻找某种超越。

Gilgamesh is looking for the immortality, the secret of immortality.

吉尔伽美什正在寻找永生，永生的秘密。

And I suppose many of us are looking for that when we go into the wilderness.

我想当我们进入荒野时，我们中的许多人都在寻找这一点。

We see it in the story of the Buddha.

我们在佛陀的故事中看到了这一点。

We see this in the story of Prince Rama in the Ramayana.

我们在《罗摩衍那》中罗摩王子的故事中看到了这一点。

And, it pops up again and again: that you must leave your culture experience and this idea of coming back changed, more enlightened, more able to see the truth of everything, that underneath the scrim.

而且，它一次又一次地出现：你必须离开你的文化体验，而回来的想法会改变，更加开明，更能够看到一切的真相，在稀松布之下。

And so, I went to Sinai as a physical manifestation of these ideas, partly.

因此，我去西奈山的部分原因是这些想法的实际体现。

And so, I also wanted, I suppose, my own sense of enlightenment, my own sense of epiphany.

所以，我想，我也想要我自己的启蒙感，我自己的顿悟感。

And, sometimes, maybe by going to the site of the burning bush, by going to the site of Elijah's epiphany, that maybe you'll stumble into one of your own.

有时，也许通过前往燃烧的灌木丛的地点，通过前往以利亚顿悟的地点，也许你会偶然发现自己的一个。

I say this as a joke, but also for real.

我说这话是开玩笑，但也是真的。

I think I'm always looking for that.

我想我一直在寻找那个。

And, I think many people maybe are, that--I don't expect it to happen on a daily basis, but I'm always searching for it.

而且，我想很多人可能都是这样的——我不希望它每天都会发生，但我一直在寻找它。

And so, walking to Mount Sinai to watch the sun go down over these bald, rocky mountains all around, you're very high up.

因此，步行到西奈山观看太阳从周围这些光秃秃的岩石山上落下，你就感觉很高了。

You're slightly higher than the rest of the range, and the colors are incredible.

你比其他系列的颜色稍高，而且颜色令人难以置信。

The desert sky at night is really something.

夜晚的沙漠天空真是别有洞天。

And, we stayed up--I was up there with a local Bedouin guide, and stayed in a little hut on the top of the peak, very close to the top of the peak, and then got up again to watch the sunrise.

然后，我们就熬夜了——我和当地的贝都因人导游一起，住在山顶的一个小小屋里，离山顶很近，然后又起来看日出。

And, that's when most pilgrims end up coming up.

而且，那是大多数朝圣者最终到来的时候。

So, I watched the people coming up ready to have their experience.

所以，我看着人们准备好体验。

And I think there's a strange thing because it draws a crowd.

我认为这是一件奇怪的事情，因为它吸引了一大群人。

And, that's one of the many perversities at the heart of sort of wilderness-seeking: is that these really well-known wilderness sites become tourist sites or sites of pilgrimage, or, you know, crowds end up coming.

而且，这是寻求荒野的核心的众多反常现象之一：这些真正著名的荒野地点变成了旅游胜地或朝圣地，或者，你知道，最终会涌来人群。

And so, that's what's happened to Mount Sinai.

这就是西奈山所发生的事情。

It has the old track--that you can go up these steps being carved into the side of the mountain, which I'm sure, at the time that they were carving, those people were complaining about the tourism that was happening on the mountainside.

它有一条古老的轨道——你可以沿着这些刻在山边的台阶上去，我确信，在他们雕刻的时候，那些人正在抱怨山腰上正在发生的旅游业。

And now, the steps have become too tricky, and they've made a big camel track, so you can hire a camel and get carried up to the top for your epiphany.

现在，台阶变得太棘手了，他们开辟了一条大骆驼跑道，所以你可以租一头骆驼，把它带到山顶去顿悟。

And, I think it's a funny thing, because you can be self-conscious in a crowd in a way that you might not be alone.

而且，我认为这是一件有趣的事情，因为你可以在人群中保持自我意识，而你可能并不孤单。

And so, I think perhaps that's partly--you're aware of yourself as being one of many people, and you all[?] want this thing.

所以，我想也许这在一定程度上是——你意识到自己是许多人中的一员，而你们都[？]想要这个东西。

And, something about that maybe eats into the sincerity of the moment.

而且，与此相关的某些事情可能会侵蚀此刻的诚意。

And so, I think that was one of my early inklings about how complicated this was going to be: that if you go to famous wildernesses, other people will have had the same idea.

因此，我认为这是我对这将变得多么复杂的早期暗示之一：如果你去著名的荒野，其他人也会有同样的想法。

And that keeps coming back to bite people.

而且它不断地回来咬人。

You find hermits becoming so incredibly world-famous that they have to hire secretaries, and so on and so forth.

你会发现隐士变得如此举世闻名，以至于他们不得不聘请秘书等等。

It's a recurring dilemma for famous wildernesses and wilderness seekers.

对于著名的荒野和荒野探索者来说，这是一个反复出现的困境。

Cal Flyn: I think I felt amazement, and I felt aesthetic appreciation, but I did not feel the next step up, the next level.

卡尔·弗林：我想我感到惊讶，我感到审美欣赏，但我没有感觉到下一步、下一个水平。

And I think I did feel these sort of moments of realization at parts of my research, and often at slightly unexpected moments.

我想，在我的部分研究中，我确实感受到了这种领悟的时刻，而且常常是在有些出乎意料的时刻。

So, for example, when I went to Antarctica, it was exciting to step onto the Antarctic continent.

所以，比如说，当我去南极洲的时候，踏上南极大陆就很兴奋。

It was incredible to see that.

看到这一点真是令人难以置信。

But that felt, again, almost organized, or there were other people there.

但再次感觉那几乎是有组织的，或者还有其他人在那里。

But, if I was alone on the deck, on the ship, and I saw a particular alignment of icebergs, that moment might be it for me.

但是，如果我独自一人在甲板上，在船上，并且我看到了特定的冰山排列，那一刻可能就是我的时刻。

The shaft of a particular unexpected ray of sunlight coming in, these things that strike you in the moment as being perfect.

一束出人意料的阳光照射进来，这些东西在那一刻让你觉得完美。

I don't think you can necessarily plan for those, but you can put yourself in the path of those.

我认为你不一定能够为这些做好计划，但你可以让自己走上这些道路。

I think that's definitely something I've been learning, is that actually sometimes you can't pursue them exactly, but you can be ready.

我认为这绝对是我一直在学习的东西，实际上有时你无法完全追求它们，但你可以做好准备。

Russ Roberts: So, there's a monastery in Mount Sinai, a Christian monastery.

拉斯·罗伯茨：西奈山有一座修道院，一座基督教修道院。

Right?

正确的？

And, the great thing about Mount Sinai is: We don't really exactly know where it is.

而且，西奈山的伟大之处在于：我们并不真正确切地知道它在哪里。

And, I want to leave it, move on.

而且，我想离开它，继续前进。

But, I heard of someone who said, as he was arduously climbing up the stairs, he says, 'If this isn't the actual Mount Sinai, why are we climbing it?

但是，我听说有人说，当他艰难地爬上楼梯时，他说，‘如果这不是真正的西奈山，我们为什么要爬它呢？

If it is the actual Mount Sinai, I'm not worthy, and I shouldn't be climbing it.' I don't think he got out of it.

如果那是真正的西奈山，我就不值得，我也不应该去攀登它。”我不认为他摆脱了困境。

I think he ended up climbing it.

我认为他最终爬上了它。

But, it is--a revelation as tourist attraction is a very strange idea.

但是，作为旅游景点的启示是一个非常奇怪的想法。

It's bizarre.

这很奇怪。

Russ Roberts: I want to talk about predators.

拉斯·罗伯茨：我想谈谈掠夺者。

And, I want to talk about Yellowstone, which you talk about in the book.

而且，我想谈谈你在书中谈到的黄石公园。

I used to be very interested in the--I still am in the abstract.

我曾经对这个非常感兴趣——但我仍然处于抽象状态。

It's just not something I read about as much as I used to.

我只是不再像以前那样经常读到这方面的内容了。

But I used to be very interested in the reintroduction of wolves into Yellowstone and the elimination of wolves before that.

但我曾经对将狼重新引入黄石以及在此之前消灭狼非常感兴趣。

And, what that did--the elimination of wolves in the earlier part of the 20th century--is that it allowed the elk to flourish, which to spoil the riverine ecosystems of the park--the willows, and the beaver habitat, and other things--because the elk would just eat everything down to the ground.

而且，20世纪早期狼群被消灭后，麋鹿得以繁盛，破坏了公园的河流生态系统——柳树、海狸栖息地和其他东西——因为麋鹿会吃掉地上的所有东西。

And, I always found it deeply depressing.

而且，我总是觉得它非常令人沮丧。

It is a beautiful landscape.

这是一道美丽的风景线。

It's gorgeous.

太漂亮了。

But, I always felt, as you mention in passing, it's sort of a Disneyfied experience, partly because of the crowds and the same kind of thing we're talking about with Mount Sinai.

但是，正如你顺便提到的，我总觉得这是一种迪士尼化的体验，部分原因是人群以及我们正在谈论的西奈山同样的事情。

So, if you want to have a religious experience at Yellowstone, it's not so straightforward.

所以，如果你想在黄石公园体验宗教体验，事情就没那么简单了。

But, the elimination of the wolves, which are scary in our imagination--whether they're actually scary is a different question--they play a large role, as you write about it, the human fears about the darkness and full moons and other things.

但是，消灭狼，在我们的想象中是可怕的——它们是否真的可怕是一个不同的问题——它们发挥着重要作用，正如你所写的，人类对黑暗、满月和其他事物的恐惧。

And, they turned the Park into something that generated a lot of foot traffic because elk are not scary.

而且，他们把公园变成了一个能产生大量人流量的地方，因为麋鹿并不可怕。

Again, the Disneyfication is to make people think it's wild because they see a herd of elk, but that herd of elk should every once in a while be in fear of a pack of wolves that will relentlessly bring down the weaker, older animals, and allow the rest of the landscape to be healthier.

迪士尼化的目的是让人们认为这里是野生的，因为他们看到了一群麋鹿，但这群麋鹿应该每隔一段时间就会害怕一群狼，这些狼会无情地击倒较弱、较老的动物，让其他景观变得更健康。

So, talk about that just in general.

所以，只是笼统地谈谈这个问题。

And, in your experience in Transylvania about both the fear and the challenges we have in creating what seems natural, but it makes a lot of people really scared, so they're not so keen on it.

而且，根据您在特兰西瓦尼亚的经历，我们在创造看似自然的东西时所面临的恐惧和挑战，但这让很多人真的很害怕，所以他们不太热衷于它。

Cal Flyn: Definitely.

卡尔·弗林：当然。

In present-day Europe, we're seeing a really interesting pattern of rising numbers of bears, particularly brown bears, which are somewhere between, I guess, a black bear and a grizzly bear.

在当今的欧洲，我们看到了一种非常有趣的模式，熊的数量不断增加，尤其是棕熊，我猜它们介于黑熊和灰熊之间。

So, they're closer to a grizzly bear.

所以，它们更接近灰熊。

They're big, and they're quite scary.

它们很大，而且非常可怕。

These numbers have been rebounding.

这些数字一直在反弹。

And, what we are seeing is a reemergence of conflict between people, especially agricultural people, and the animals themselves.

而且，我们看到的是人与动物之间的冲突重新出现，特别是农业人口与动物本身之间的冲突。

I love the term for it, the 'wildland-urban interface.'

我喜欢这个词，“荒地与城市的界面”。

So, it's just the idea of this up-frontier[?] of a kind, which is--especially in Romania, where this pattern has been running for a long time.

所以，这只是一种前沿[？]的想法，尤其是在罗马尼亚，这种模式已经运行了很长时间。

Because, during the Communist regime, Ceaușescu protected the bears a lot earlier than they were protected elsewhere, because he loved to hunt them.

因为在共产主义政权时期，齐奥塞斯库对熊的保护比其他地方早得多，因为他喜欢猎杀它们。

And so, the numbers have been jumping up and up and up.

因此，数字一直在不断上升。

And so, Romania has been becoming a much wealthier country.

因此，罗马尼亚已经成为一个更加富裕的国家。

It's developing, it's growing in population.

它在发展，人口在增长。

And so, they're building, especially in Transylvania, these beautiful--they look almost German-Bavarian--they're like chocolate box little towns.

因此，他们正在建设，特别是在特兰西瓦尼亚，这些美丽的——它们看起来几乎是德国巴伐利亚风格的——就像巧克力盒里的小镇一样。

They're expanding, and they're building these new houses right out into what was, until quite recently, forest.

他们正在扩张，他们正在把这些新房子建在直到最近还是森林的地方。

And so, they're having a lot of conflict with bears coming down and going into the schools and raiding the canteens.

因此，他们与闯入学校并袭击食堂的熊发生了很多冲突。

Or they're going into the churches, and they're eating wax candles, and they're drinking the communion wine, and the wafers, and all sorts of things like this.

或者他们走进教堂，吃蜡烛，喝圣餐酒、薄饼，以及诸如此类的东西。

And, it's become a real flashpoint, because it becomes a political question of, who is getting primacy here?

而且，它已经成为一个真正的热点，因为它成为一个政治问题，即谁在这里占据主导地位？

Aren't you meant to be protecting us from these guys?

你不是要保护我们免受这些家伙的伤害吗？

All of these old conflicts that we used to have--in Europe, really throughout medieval times, and in the United States, the early colonial years and unfolding right as the westward expansion continued, this conflict with wildlife is very primal.

我们曾经发生过的所有这些古老的冲突——在欧洲，实际上是整个中世纪，在美国，早期殖民时期以及随着向西扩张的继续而展开，这种与野生动物的冲突是非常原始的。

People have very strong reactions to feeling afraid or feeling at risk, and especially if their children are involved.

人们对感到害怕或感到危险有非常强烈的反应，尤其是当他们的孩子参与其中时。

And so, it's become this big symbolic thing in Romania.

因此，它已成为罗马尼亚的一个重大象征性事物。

And increasingly, countries like Germany, Luxembourg, and Belgium are seeing wolves for the first time in more than 100 years--and more than 200 years in some cases, as these predator populations expand.

随着这些捕食者数量的扩大，德国、卢森堡和比利时等国家越来越多地在 100 多年来（有些情况下是 200 多年来）首次看到狼。

And, in regions like--in parts of Iberia, people are having to relearn old skills of having these shepherd dogs to protect their herds, to bring in specialist electrical fencing, and all sorts of things that we've kind of forgotten, or we've never really had to develop in the modern day because we have been so in the ascendence for so long.

而且，在像伊比利亚部分地区这样的地区，人们不得不重新学习用这些牧羊犬来保护牛群的旧技能，引进专业的电子围栏，以及各种我们已经忘记的东西，或者我们在现代从来没有真正需要发展，因为我们已经如此长久地处于优势地位。

And so, this kind of rebalancing due to the protections that have come in over the end of the 20th century, and sometimes earlier, are seeing these old feelings rise up and bubble up.

因此，这种由于 20 世纪末（有时甚至更早）实施的保护措施而实现的再平衡，正在见证这些旧有的感觉升起并泡沫化。

And, as you were mentioning, the movement of predators not only change the behavior of people and the feelings of people, but also of other species as well.

而且，正如你所提到的，掠食者的运动不仅改变了人们的行为和人们的感受，也改变了其他物种。

They have a term called the landscape of fear.

他们有一个术语叫做恐惧景观。

It's a slightly simplified model, but the idea is that these predators keep the herbivores and the grazers on the move, and that shapes the vegetation that grows.

这是一个稍微简化的模型，但其想法是这些捕食者使食草动物和食草动物保持移动，从而塑造了生长的植被。

And so, we see populations of bears will affect the landscape itself, or we will see the population of people will affect the landscape itself, because it's all an interconnected knock-on system.

因此，我们看到熊的数量会影响景观本身，或者我们会看到人口的数量会影响景观本身，因为这都是一个相互关联的连锁系统。

And so, it is fascinating, especially when you look at apex predators, because they have such strong effects in ourselves and in other species as well.

因此，这很令人着迷，尤其是当你观察顶级捕食者时，因为它们对我们自己和其他物种都有如此强烈的影响。

Russ Roberts: The big issue in the United States, in the West, is, as you say, often with the interface between the wild animal and the domesticated animal.

拉斯·罗伯茨：正如你所说，在美国和西方，最大的问题往往是野生动物和家养动物之间的界面。

So, the sheep and the cattle are the backbone of the local economy in many cases.

因此，羊和牛在很多情况下是当地经济的支柱。

And, you don't want a real fence.

而且，你不需要真正的栅栏。

Ideally, you want an ecosystem that's not going to always have natural borders and boundaries.

理想情况下，您想要一个不总是有自然边界和边界的生态系统。

And, the wolves of Yellowstone occasionally get into people's sheep, and they don't like it.

而且，黄石公园的狼偶尔会进入人们的羊群，他们不喜欢这样。

I get it.

我得到它。

And similarly, in England and Scotland.

同样，在英格兰和苏格兰。

I'd be curious your thoughts.

我很好奇你的想法。

There's so much romance about sheep farming, and it's changed.

养羊的浪漫太多了，现在已经变了。

Sheep farming created what we think of as the English countryside in many ways, or what Scotland looks like.

养羊业在很多方面创造了我们所认为的英国乡村，或者说苏格兰的样子。

It's not really natural.

这不是很自然。

And, I don't have any problem with that, but it's the result of a human agricultural experience, for a thousand years.

而且，我对此没有任何问题，但这是人类一千年农业经验的结果。

And, I'm fine: I don't think there's a pristine Eden to return to there, realistically.

而且，我很好：我不认为那里有一个原始的伊甸园可以返回，实际上。

But, any attempts to bring back any kind of serious predators are going to involve very, very difficult economic decisions and cultural ways of life, and many, many other things that come along with those economies of that kind.

但是，任何恢复任何严重掠夺者的尝试都将涉及非常非常困难的经济决策和文化生活方式，以及伴随此类经济而来的许多其他事情。

Cal Flyn: Oh, absolutely.

卡尔·弗林：哦，当然。

And, in the United Kingdom, I find it fascinating, actually, the instinct to do it at all.

事实上，在英国，我发现这样做的本能很令人着迷。

Because, if you think about it from a sort of utilitarian point of view, it's really an act of self-sabotage to bring these animals back, economically.

因为，如果你从功利主义的角度思考，从经济上来说，让这些动物回归实际上是一种自我破坏行为。

But also, perhaps psychologically, when people are terribly afraid of predators, way out of--it's an out-sized fear compared to the risk that they really cause us.

但也许从心理上来说，当人们非常害怕掠食者时，与掠食者真正给我们带来的风险相比，这是一种过大的恐惧。

Although brown bears are dangerous, particularly; wolves less so.

尽管棕熊特别危险；狼则不然。

But, people do have this very strong instinct to bring them back.

但是，人们确实有一种非常强烈的本能，要把他们带回来。

They symbolize something else, something beyond their own presence.

它们象征着其他东西，超越它们自身存在的东西。

And, of course, farmers tend to be really against it.

当然，农民往往非常反对。

But, there is a large, very vocal, and really quite mainstream movement towards bringing them to the United Kingdom.

但是，有一场大规模的、非常有声望的、真正相当主流的运动，旨在将它们带到英国。

And, we have to decide to do that because we're an island.

而且，我们必须决定这样做，因为我们是一个岛屿。

They're not just going to flood back in, in the way that they're flooding through most of Central Europe at the moment, unless a small number of them manage to get on a cargo ship at some point.

他们不会像目前涌入中欧大部分地区那样涌回来，除非其中一小部分人能够在某个时候登上货船。

We're going to have to let them go.

我们必须让他们走。

And, that, I think, is a massive question.

我认为这是一个很大的问题。

And, it really gets to the heart of what people feel to be missing from their relationship with their own landscape.

而且，它确实触及了人们在与自己的景观的关系中缺失的核心内容。

They don't find it to be fearful enough , and so they're trying to bring in fearful elements to return that sense of the wild, however artificial that might be.

他们觉得它还不够可怕，所以他们试图引入可怕的元素来恢复那种野性的感觉，无论这可能是多么人为。

Russ Roberts: I don't think the phrase 'artificial intelligence' is in your book.

拉斯·罗伯茨：我认为你的书中没有“人工智能”这个词。

Am I correct?

我说得对吗？

Cal Flyn: No. I haven't engaged a whole deal of artificial intelligence.

卡尔·弗林：不。我还没有完全接触过人工智能。

Russ Roberts: So, what's interesting, a book like this--and I think it speaks deeply to most of us, not all of us.

拉斯·罗伯茨：所以，有趣的是，像这样的书——我认为它对我们大多数人都有深刻的启发，但不是所有人。

Again, at the end maybe we'll talk about a little bit, the different feelings people have about these kinds of issues.

再说一次，最后我们也许会讨论一下人们对这类问题的不同感受。

But, in some dimension, people are increasingly wilderness-free in their day-to-day lives.

但是，在某些方面，人们的日常生活越来越远离荒野。

They might go on a cruise to the Antarctic or to the Galapagos or some exotic thing that gives them a very sanitized taste of the wilderness.

他们可能会乘船前往南极洲或加拉帕戈斯群岛或一些异国情调的地方，让他们体验到荒野的干净味道。

And, they're increasingly spending their time on their phone--in a different world, in a digital world.

而且，他们越来越多地将时间花在手机上——在一个不同的世界里，在一个数字世界里。

And, your book has such physicality to it.

而且，你的书具有如此的物质性。

And, I assume that's the way you live generally.

而且，我想这就是你通常的生活方式。

Cal Flyn: I think so.

卡尔·弗林：我想是的。

I mean, I write my books on a laptop, so that happens.

我的意思是，我在笔记本电脑上写书，所以就会发生这种情况。

I have a social media account.

我有一个社交媒体帐户。

But, yeah, I think the key thing for me has always been seeing these things as--well, one thing I've learned from research, and whether that's online research or just reading in books, is that often I think I understand, but I haven't quite--until I see it for myself, I have an impression .

但是，是的，我认为对我来说最关键的事情一直是看到这些东西——嗯，我从研究中学到的一件事，无论是在线研究还是只是阅读书籍，是我经常认为我理解，但我还没有完全理解——直到我亲眼看到，我才有一个印象。

And then, often, especially if I'm writing about an international issue, often, as soon as I arrive somewhere, I'll be, like, 'Oh, I had this quite wrong.' I didn't quite understand it the way local people talked about it, summoned an image in my head that turned out to be incorrect.

然后，通常，尤其是当我写的是国际问题时，通常，当我到达某个地方时，我会说，“哦，我错了。”我不太明白当地人谈论它的方式，在我的脑海中召唤出一个图像，结果证明是不正确的。

Or I just happened to be speaking to somebody who was very partisan or something like this.

或者我只是碰巧正在和一个非常有党派之类的人说话。

And so, I find it's important for my process, or it has been so far in my writing, to go to places, to talk to people, and to, I don't know, wander around.

因此，我发现去一些地方，与人交谈，以及，我不知道，四处闲逛，这对我的创作过程很重要，或者说到目前为止，在我的写作中。

If I'm going to write about the rainforest, I think I need to go into the rainforest.

如果我要写雨林，我想我需要走进雨林。

If I'm going to write about mountains, I need to hike for a couple of weeks into the mountains to speak to people who live in the mountains and find out how they live.

如果我要写山，我需要徒步几周进入山里，与住在山里的人们交谈，了解他们的生活方式。

Because, that stuff is hard to guess at, even if you're reading research.

因为，即使你正在阅读研究，这些东西也很难猜测。

And, actually, a lot of the places that I was writing about didn't have a huge, huge literature on them.

事实上，我所写的很多地方都没有大量的文献。

Antarctica is a little bit different.

南极洲有点不同。

A lot has been written on Antarctica in its relatively short human history.

在相对较短的人类历史中，关于南极洲的著作有很多。

But, for example, the region that I went to in Nepal, and even to some extent, Yanomami culture or to the Batwa people I spoke to in Uganda, the English-language literature is relatively small and is often a little bit unreliable.

但是，例如，我去过的尼泊尔地区，甚至在某种程度上，亚诺马米文化或我在乌干达采访过的巴特瓦人，英语文献相对较少，而且往往有点不可靠。

It's based on a small number of English-speaking writers.

它基于少数英语作家的作品。

So, to me, because I had a background in news reporting a long time ago, I kind of knew that if you actually speak to people on the ground, they will tell you something slightly different to what you were expecting, and that can be an important part.

所以，对我来说，因为我很久以前就有新闻报道的背景，我知道如果你真的和实地的人交谈，他们会告诉你一些与你预期略有不同的事情，这可能是一个重要的部分。

To me, I think the physical side of things is--also, I just like to write about the physical side of things.

对我来说，我认为事物的物理方面是——而且，我只是喜欢写事物的物理方面。

I like to write immersively.

我喜欢沉浸式写作。

I like to write about, what does it smell like?

我喜欢写，它闻起来像什么？

What does it feel like?

感觉如何？

What was my reaction to it emotionally?

我对此的情感反应是什么？

Because, that is an important part of the story to me.

因为，这对我来说是故事的重要部分。

And, I think it helps people also engage.

而且，我认为这也有助于人们参与。

If I'm a character in the book, and I'm going and speaking to people, but I'm a little bit nervous, it makes it a story.

如果我是书中的一个角色，我要去和人们交谈，但我有点紧张，这就使它成为一个故事。

It makes it an adventure story.

这使它成为一个冒险故事。

Russ Roberts: Sure.

拉斯·罗伯茨：当然。

Now, there's a part of--I think this is fair; some listeners may bristle--but there's a part of the environmental movement that sees human beings as the enemy.

现在，有一部分——我认为这是公平的；一些听众可能会感到愤怒，但环保运动中有一部分人将人类视为敌人。

And, it's reasonable, certainly, to see human beings as the enemy of wilderness .

而且，将人类视为荒野的敌人当然是合理的。

The encroaching that you talked about in Romania, and certainly in England, and everywhere human beings go, we inevitably encroach on the natural world in some fashion.

你谈到的罗马尼亚的侵犯，当然还有英国，以及人类所到之处，我们都不可避免地以某种方式侵犯自然世界。

But it felt to me like your book, in the writing of your book and the thinking that you did, you got a more nuanced view of human beings generally.

但对我来说，这就像你的书，在你的书的写作和你所做的思考中，你对人类有了更细致的看法。

And, as you suggested, I think in your opening remarks, wilderness is where people live , that interface between the wildness of nature and the human experience.

而且，正如您所建议的，我认为在您的开场白中，荒野是人们居住的地方，是自然荒野与人类经验之间的界面。

So, did this change for you at all?

那么，这对你来说有改变吗？

Did you learn something, or did your views evolve on this question?

您是否学到了一些东西，或者您对这个问题的看法是否有所发展？

Cal Flyn: One thing I've been slowly learning over the course of my entire career, really, especially while I've been writing books, is this way that people are sewn up together with their landscape.

卡尔·弗林：在我的整个职业生涯中，特别是在我写书的过程中，我一直在慢慢学习的一件事是，人们与风景缝合在一起的方式。

And, of course, that's true in the city.

当然，在城市里也是如此。

That's very obviously true to most people in the West's eyes, that you are the creator of this landscape.

对于大多数西方人来说，这显然是正确的，你是这片景观的创造者。

But, it's also true of a lot of places that are labeled as being wild, that these are also cultural landscapes in a sense.

但是，很多被标记为野生的地方也是如此，从某种意义上说，这些也是文化景观。

I came across this when I wrote my first book, Thicker Than Water , which is a book about violence on the Australian frontier.

我在写第一本书《浓于水》时遇到了这一点，这是一本关于澳大利亚边境暴力的书。

So, I was writing about an episode in the 19th century, something I've got a family link to.

所以，我正在写 19 世纪的一个插曲，与我的家庭有联系。

And, I discovered that when Europeans, and particularly the British people, first landed on the coast of New South Wales and Australia, they got off the ships and they said things like, 'Oh, it's just like a country park.

而且，我发现，当欧洲人，尤其是英国人，第一次登陆新南威尔士州和澳大利亚海岸时，他们下船时会说，‘哦，这就像一个郊野公园。

This is incredible.

这太不可思议了。

Aren't they lucky?

他们不是很幸运吗？

The Aboriginal people in Australia are able to live lives of luxury because the landscape is providing for them.

澳大利亚的原住民之所以能够过上奢华的生活，是因为这里的风景为他们提供了便利。

It's just so fruitful.'

它是如此富有成效。

And, really what that landscape is, is the results of firestick farming.

而且，真正的景观是火棒农业的结果。

It's the result of the planting of fruit trees.

这是种植果树的结果。

It's the results of tending.

这就是照顾的结果。

I'm not sure I'd call it 'farming' exactly--or 'firestick farming' has become a term--but it is an interaction with the landscape, and it's a purposeful interaction with the landscape.

我不确定我是否会准确地称之为“农业”——或者“火棒农业”已经成为一个术语——但它是与景观的互动，而且是与景观有目的的互动。

And, through understanding that, you can see how the people of the place and the place are all sewn up together.

而且，通过了解这一点，你可以看到这个地方的人和这个地方的人是如何缝合在一起的。

And, that turns out to be true all over the world, wherever you look.

而且，事实证明，无论你往哪里看，这在世界各地都是如此。

It might look like wilderness to me , but when you dig down into it, there have been people living there for centuries, for hundreds of years, and they interact with the landscape, and that changes.

对我来说，它可能看起来像荒野，但当你深入研究它时，就会发现有人在那里生活了几个世纪、数百年，他们与景观互动，情况发生了变化。

We're all interconnected.

我们都是相互关联的。

We're all living in each other's world.

我们都生活在彼此的世界里。

And, I think that that has been, to me, an intellectual discovery, but also a bigger shift in the way I understand the world's work and how I understand what nature is.

而且，我认为这对我来说是一个智力发现，也是我理解世界工作以及理解自然的方式的更大转变。

That, it doesn't need to be man versus nature, but, in fact, we're all in one system.

这并不需要是人与自然的对抗，但事实上，我们都在同一个系统中。

And, that this idea of wilderness exists absolutely as an emotional/spiritual concept, and to some extent an abstract geographical concept, one that we might map for legal reasons to create designations.

而且，这种荒野的概念绝对作为一种情感/精神概念而存在，并且在某种程度上是一种抽象的地理概念，我们可以出于法律原因将其映射以创建名称。

But, the reality of it is much looser, and it tends to be human-impacted in some way along some kind of spectrum.

但是，它的现实要宽松得多，而且它往往会在某种范围内以某种方式受到人类的影响。

And, if we understand maybe a tarmacked car park at one end of the spectrum and then, I don't know, perhaps a jungle with forest peoples who move around a lot at the other end, that might be--it's also a human-impacted landscape.

而且，如果我们理解，光谱的一端可能是一个柏油路停车场，然后，我不知道，另一端可能是一片丛林，森林里的人们经常走来走去，那可能是——这也是一种受人类影响的景观。

It's also the homeland of someone.

这也是某人的故乡。

It also technically is owned by someone, although their land ownership system looks different to ours and is difficult for our legal system to recognize straightforwardly.

从技术上讲，它也属于某人所有，尽管他们的土地所有权制度看起来与我们不同，而且我们的法律制度很难直接承认。

But, nevertheless, these things are all one and the same.

但是，尽管如此，这些事情都是一回事。

I think that's been a big discovery for me.

我认为这对我来说是一个重大发现。

And, that so much of the time we try and apply our own understanding of land ownership, stewardship, whatever that means, to other peoples.

而且，很多时候我们都试图将我们自己对土地所有权、管理权的理解应用到其他民族身上，无论这意味着什么。

And, it doesn't really work.

而且，它并没有真正起作用。

Our system falls apart.

我们的系统崩溃了。

And, so often in the past, that has meant that we've essentially steamrollered other people's ways of doing things at great environmental cost.

而且，在过去，这常常意味着我们基本上以巨大的环境代价压制了其他人的做事方式。

Russ Roberts: So, you got very close to a volcano, and it was probably my favorite chapter.

拉斯·罗伯茨：所以，你非常接近一座火山，这可能是我最喜欢的一章。

It's not normally what I think of as a wilderness.

这通常不是我所认为的荒野。

It's sort of a phenomenon.

这是一种现象。

Describe what you did that maybe wasn't so smart.

描述一下你做了哪些可能不太聪明的事情。

I was going to ask you what the scariest experience was in wilderness.

我想问你在荒野中最可怕的经历是什么。

I think it's probably that one, but I could be wrong.

我想可能就是这样，但我可能是错的。

So, talk about what you did that was a little bit risky and what you saw.

所以，谈谈你所做的有点冒险的事情以及你所看到的。

Cal Flyn: Absolutely.

卡尔·弗林：当然。

I've got this chapter--I wanted to write a bit about evolving ideas of landscape and how that had shifted, kind of in art history, but philosophically.

我写了这一章——我想写一些关于景观观念的演变以及它是如何转变的，有点像艺术史，但在哲学上。

I don't know.

我不知道。

Part of that is talking about the sublime, how we started to appreciate the sublime, or how the sublime has been appreciated through history, and how this is a mix of fear and admiration.

其中一部分是谈论崇高，我们如何开始欣赏崇高，或者历史上如何欣赏崇高，以及这是如何混合着恐惧和钦佩的。

It might be a beautiful place, but it's also somehow a horrifying or terrifying place or object or whatever this is.

它可能是一个美丽的地方，但在某种程度上它也是一个令人恐惧或可怕的地方或物体或无论是什么。

Edmund Burke in the 18th century was talking about how this is the most powerful emotion known to man.

18 世纪的埃德蒙·伯克 (Edmund Burke) 曾谈论过这是人类已知的最强大的情感。

And, I found that really intriguing.

而且，我发现这真的很有趣。

I think I agree, actually, but I also wanted to feel it and summon it myself as part of my exploration of the concept.

事实上，我想我同意，但我也想感受它并亲自召唤它，作为我探索这个概念的一部分。

And so, he enumerates in his paper lots of different types of sublime experience.

因此，他在论文中列举了许多不同类型的崇高体验。

He would talk about tempests on the sea.

他会谈论海上的风暴。

He would talk about waterfalls.

他会谈论瀑布。

And so, I was chasing these natural phenomena to experience it for myself.

于是，我就追寻这些自然现象，亲自去体验。

I'd go to a waterfall, stand under it, and be like, 'Is this the sublime?' Waiting to be swept over with a swoon of the sublime.

我会走到瀑​​布前，站在瀑布下面，心想：“这就是崇高吗？”等待着被崇高的震撼所席卷。

I kept thinking, 'It's going to have to be a bigger waterfall, I think.'

我一直在想，“我想这一定是一个更大的瀑布。”

And then, over time, I was getting really obsessed with the eruptions in Iceland.

然后，随着时间的推移，我对冰岛的火山喷发变得非常着迷。

And, at some point I realized that this was what I was thinking about--that this was a natural phenomenon that, to me, was beautiful and also horrifying.

而且，在某个时刻，我意识到这就是我所想的——这是一种自然现象，对我来说，既美丽又可怕。

And, I found it completely electrifying.

而且，我发现它完全令人兴奋。

I got really obsessed with watching it.

我真的很着迷地看着它。

And, I made two attempts to go and see live eruptions.

而且，我曾两次尝试去看现场火山喷发。

The first time it was a bit of a bust.

第一次有点失败。

I started traveling towards Iceland, and by the time I got there, the eruption was over.

我开始前往冰岛，当我到达那里时，火山喷发已经结束。

This was a terrible, crushing disappointment for me.

这对我来说是一次可怕的、令人心碎的失望。

And then, another time I happened to have a couple of days free, and it was erupting again.

然后，还有一次我碰巧有几天空闲，它又爆发了。

And, I was, like, 'This time, this time I'm going to see it for myself.' And so, I got myself out to Iceland and then started essentially moving as close to the crater as I could.

而且，我当时想，“这一次，这一次我要亲眼看看。”因此，我去了冰岛，然后开始尽可能靠近火山口。

Early iterations of these eruptions, you could actually go right up to it and look at it on these agreed tracks with the tourist board.

这些喷发的早期迭代，您实际上可以直接前往并在与旅游局商定的轨道上观看它。

And, this one was felt to be last of a safe eruption, so it was closed, but I still really wanted to see it.

而且，这一次被认为是最后一次安全喷发，所以它被关闭了，但我仍然很想看看它。

And so, essentially, I drove up to the edge of what had become an exclusion zone--a temporary exclusion zone--and then decided just to hike in myself until I felt unsafe.

因此，本质上，我开车到了已经成为禁区的边缘——一个临时禁区——然后决定自己徒步旅行，直到我感到不安全。

Cal Flyn: Yeah.

卡尔·弗林：是的。

Previously, I've written a bit about exclusion zones.

之前，我写过一些关于禁区的文章。

I wrote about abandoned books in my last book--sorry, abandoned places in my last book, Islands of Abandonment .

我在上一本书中写到了关于废弃书籍的内容——抱歉，在我的上一本书《遗弃的岛屿》中提到了废弃的地方。

So, I went to Chernobyl, and I went to quite a few places that had been fenced off.

所以，我去了切尔诺贝利，去了好几个被围起来的地方。

And so, I've got a little bit of form for this.

因此，我为此准备了一些形式。

I'm really fascinated about what happens when you feel like you don't have permission to be somewhere.

我真的很着迷当你觉得自己没有得到许可去某个地方时会发生什么。

It's an intensifier.

这是一个增强器。

Your emotions are really on high alert.

你的情绪确实处于高度戒备状态。

And so, I was walking in over this open heathland.

就这样，我走进了这片开阔的石南荒原。

I mean, really, it was kind of a moss flats where there'd been previous volcanic flows that had grown over.

我的意思是，实际上，那是一种长满青苔的平地，以前的火山流已经在那里生长了。

So, some decades before, they had been grown over with moss.

所以，几十年前，它们就长满了青苔。

And, I was getting closer and closer towards the eruption, but it was behind a screen of hills.

而且，我距离火山喷发越来越近了，但它是在山幕后面。

I was very, very close before I got a really clear view of the crater.

在我真正清楚地看到火山口之前，我离得非常非常近。

And, I think I just blasted straight through sublime experience and came out the other side in this, like a horror, terror for my life.

而且，我想我只是直接经历了崇高的经历，然后从另一面走出来，就像我生命中的恐怖一样。

But, it was incredible.

但是，这太不可思议了。

It's definitely the most frightened I was during the book.

这绝对是我在这本书中最害怕的一次。

And, partly it was intensified by feeling I wasn't meant to be there: that somehow that if anything happened to me, it would be my fault.

而且，部分原因是我感觉自己不应该在那里：不知何故，如果我发生了什么事，那将是我的错。

I courted this danger.

我遇到了这种危险。

And so, that made it worse, or better, or whatever it was.

所以，这让事情变得更糟，或者更好，或者无论如何。

And that complexity, that discordant clash of emotions, did make it one of the strongest emotional experiences I've ever had in my life.

这种复杂性，那种不和谐的情感冲突，确实使它成为我一生中经历过的最强烈的情感体验之一。

And, also aesthetically incredible is that orange glowing--the heat coming off it, the size of it, the scale of it.

而且，在美学上也令人难以置信的是橙色的光芒——它散发出的热量，它的大小，它的规模。

It just made no sense.

这毫无意义。

I still have almost a hard time in picturing it almost, because it was such a strange thing to look at and understand and comprehend.

我仍然很难想象它，因为它看起来、理解和理解是一件很奇怪的事情。

And, I got there, I got this glimpse of it.

而且，我到了那里，我瞥见了它。

It was like full in the face, warm on the face.

就好像满脸都是，暖洋洋的。

And then, I was finding it really hard even to look at this eruption because it was so intense as an experience.

然后，我发现甚至很难看到这次喷发，因为它是如此强烈的体验。

Yeah.

是的。

So, I guess I found it.

所以，我想我找到了。

I guess I got what I was looking for.

我想我得到了我想要的东西。

Russ Roberts: The writing is especially vivid and beautiful in that chapter.

拉斯·罗伯茨：那一章的文笔特别生动、优美。

Did you have a notebook with you?

你有带笔记本吗？

Did you take notes while you were in the middle of that?

你在做的过程中记笔记了吗？

Do you remember--

你还记得吗——

Russ Roberts: or did you get back to your car and write it down?

拉斯·罗伯茨：或者你回到车里把它写下来了吗？

You, what?

你，什么？

Cal Flyn: I had my phone with me.

卡尔·弗林：我带着手机。

I type into the notes.

我在笔记中输入。

You know?

你知道？

So I have it carried with me all the time.

所以我一直带着它。

I find that's really a handy way to do it.

我发现这确实是一种方便的方法。

I do carry around, like, a black notepad, which I use most of the time.

我确实随身携带一个黑色记事本，我大部分时间都在使用它。

But, if I'm really on the hop, I'll write into the notes app on my phone or sometimes I record little voice notes to myself.

但是，如果我真的很忙，我会写进手机上的笔记应用程序，或者有时我给自己录制一些语音笔记。

But, I find being able to do it really, really fast and messy, so that that's the stuff that's hard to conjure again later.

但是，我发现能够做到这一点真的非常非常快而且很混乱，所以这是以后很难再想到的东西。

You can write it into sentences later, but just like vivid impressions or strange images or words that jump out at you.

你可以稍后把它写成句子，但就像突然出现在你面前的生动印象或奇怪的图像或单词一样。

I just have a word mash in my notes that I can later make sense of.

我的笔记中只有一些单词混杂，我以后可以理解它。

Russ Roberts: Let's talk about hunting.

拉斯·罗伯茨：我们来谈谈狩猎吧。

Economists tend to be--well, we care a lot about incentives.

经济学家往往——嗯，我们非常关心激励措施。

And, one of the biggest problems with wildlife is--ironically for some people--is that it's not owned.

而且，对某些人来说具有讽刺意味的是，野生动物面临的最大问题之一是它没有被拥有。

So, people don't have an incentive to take care of it and protect it.

因此，人们没有动力去照顾和保护它。

And, attempts to give an ownership incentive sometimes allow the owners to do things with the resource that other people don't care to have done.

而且，尝试给予所有权激励有时会允许所有者使用其他人不喜欢做的资源来做事情。

Meaning, a village might have control of its elephants, as opposed to no one having control.

这意味着，一个村庄可能可以控制其大象，而不是无人控制。

If no one has control, they get poached and killed, and they are endangered.

如果无人控制，它们就会遭到偷猎和杀害，从而陷入濒临灭绝的境地。

But, if you give certain areas control over that and allow them to, say, sell hunting licenses, they can use that money to do conservation.

但是，如果你给予某些地区控制权，并允许他们出售狩猎许可证，他们就可以用这笔钱来进行保护。

And more importantly, they have an incentive to make sure that people don't poach.

更重要的是，他们有动力确保人们不偷猎。

And I think it's one of the fantastic examples of how economics--for economists, certain kind of economists, we just go, 'Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.' Other people are just totally disgusted that you allow a magnificent creature, like an elephant, to be killed for money as a way to keep them protected.

我认为这是经济学的绝佳例子之一——对于经济学家，某些类型的经济学家来说，我们只是说，“是的，这很有道理。”其他人只是完全厌恶你允许为了金钱而杀死大象这样的伟大生物，以此来保护他们。

I mean, that just seems like something's wrong there.

我的意思是，这似乎有些不对劲。

We go, 'Oh, but that's the way the world works sometimes, and it works better than the alternative.'

我们会说，“哦，但这就是世界有时运作的方式，而且它比其他方式运作得更好。”

So, you're not an economist.

所以，你不是经济学家。

You experienced some different flavors of this in your book.

你在书中体验到了一些不同的味道。

Talk about how you feel about hunting and whether it changed at all, that feeling, when you explored how it was being used in Africa.

谈谈您对狩猎的感受，以及当您探索非洲如何使用狩猎时，这种感觉是否发生了变化。

Cal Flyn: Yeah, absolutely.

卡尔·弗林：是的，绝对是。

I was initially most interested about that line that you mentioned there, this sense that somehow this is perverse, that you can sell the life of maybe one animal or a small number of animals to save the life of other members of the same species or other members of similar related species.

我最初对你在那里提到的那句话最感兴趣，这种感觉在某种程度上是不正当的，你可以出卖一只动物或少数动物的生命来拯救同一物种的其他成员或类似相关物种的其他成员的生命。

It's a kind of trolley problem, or at least that that's how a lot of people who run these special reserves or hunting reserves think of it: that maybe you'll have one lion on the track and then 1,000 on the other track.

这是一种电车难题，或者至少很多管理这些特殊保护区或狩猎保护区的人是这么想的：也许赛道上有一只狮子，而另一条赛道上有 1,000 只狮子。

And, I think that--well, I wanted to see this in action to begin with.

而且，我认为——嗯，我一开始就想看到这一点。

Again, I understand how it really works when applied.

再次，我了解它在应用时如何真正发挥作用。

And so, I found a professional hunter called Paul Stones, who was willing to have me shadow him and two American trophy hunters who went to a region called Niassa Special Reserve.

因此，我找到了一位名叫保罗·斯通斯的职业猎人，他愿意让我跟随他和两名前往尼亚萨特别保护区的美国战利品猎人。

This is in Mozambique, on the border with Tanzania.

这是在莫桑比克，与坦桑尼亚接壤。

It's a huge nature reserve.

这是一个巨大的自然保护区。

It's about the size of Switzerland.

大约有瑞士那么大。

An, it's divided up into lots of different blocks, many of which are hunting blocks.

而且，它被分为很多不同的区块，其中很多都是狩猎区块。

And it's pretty expensive to go trophy hunting there.

去那里狩猎战利品相当昂贵。

If you want to go lion hunting, for example, it will probably cost you in excess of $100,000.

例如，如果您想去猎狮，可能会花费超过 10 万美元。

And, a lot of that, or some of that, will be pumped into the conservation project itself.

而且，其中大部分或部分将被注入保护项目本身。

It's a very expensive activity.

这是一项非常昂贵的活动。

So, a lot of it does get swallowed up in the practicalities of getting people there and away, and all the equipment, to this very remote region.

因此，其中很大一部分确实被将人员以及所有设备运送到这个非常偏远地区的实际情况所吞噬。

But, some of the money is kept locally, and either given to the community or used to run these anti-poaching methods that they have out there--the sort of patrols, and so on.

但是，有些钱被保留在当地，要么捐给社区，要么用于实施他们现有的反偷猎方法——比如巡逻等等。

I was fascinated by it.

我被它迷住了。

I have to say I have been hunting before in different contexts.

我不得不说我以前一直在不同的环境下打猎。

I wrote about deer culls in Scotland for population management reasons.

我写过关于苏格兰出于人口管理原因而进行的鹿扑杀的文章。

And so, the concept of hunting itself, I felt I would be relatively comfortable with.

因此，对于狩猎本身的概念，我觉得我会相对满意。

But, of course, safari hunting--big game hunting--this is a whole other thing: Partly because it's more dangerous, and partly because it feels more emotionally salient in some way.

但是，当然，野生动物狩猎——大型动物狩猎——这完全是另一回事：部分是因为它更危险，部分是因为它在某种程度上感觉在情感上更加突出。

That you are--often these are more endangered animals.

你是——通常这些是更濒临灭绝的动物。

So, red deer in Scotland are maybe 10 a penny.

所以，苏格兰的马鹿可能是 10 便士一便士。

Whereas here we were talking about maybe shooting--I don't know, a crocodile, or you can shoot a hippo.

而在这里我们谈论的是也许可以射击——我不知道，是鳄鱼，还是你可以射击河马。

You can shoot anything you want: you can shoot wild lions.

你可以射任何你想要的东西：你可以射野生狮子。

Those are the projects of conservation in that region.

这些是该地区的保护项目。

And so, how do I feel differently about it?

那么，我对此有什么不同的感受呢？

I suppose I was quite convinced by the economics of it.

我想我对它的经济学原理深信不疑。

I find that difficult to get away from this.

我发现很难摆脱这个。

The numbers make sense, inasmuch as you can have a small number of hunters come into a region that is quite difficult to use for tourism.

这些数字是有道理的，因为你可以让少量猎人进入一个很难用于旅游业的地区。

It is quite unstable.

这是相当不稳定的。

And, shortly after we were in Niassa, a neighboring camp was raided and staff members beheaded by Islamists hiding in the Miombo woodland around there.

而且，在我们到达尼亚萨后不久，附近的一个营地遭到袭击，工作人员被躲在附近 Miombo 林地里的伊斯兰主义者斩首。

So, it's a difficult place to bring in large numbers of people who are photographic tourists, for example, or it's not really for luxury tourists in that way.

因此，这里很难吸引大量摄影游客，或者说，这里并不适合豪华游客。

And also, other countries, Zambia as an example, have tried to ban trophy hunting.

此外，其他国家（例如赞比亚）也试图禁止战利品狩猎。

And then, they've had to go back because they haven't been able to find the finances from other sources.

然后，他们不得不回去，因为他们无法从其他来源找到资金。

And I believe in the United States, you have a similar kind of funding gap that you're looking ahead to, because people who are into hunting, fishing, and so on are aging out.

我相信在美国，你会面临类似的资金缺口，因为从事狩猎、捕鱼等活动的人正在老龄化。

And so, the younger generation, if they're not going to be buying permits in the same number, that's going to cause a funding crisis for conservation in a different context altogether.

因此，年轻一代如果不打算购买相同数量的许可证，就会在完全不同的背景下引发保护资金危机。

I will say, in the African hunting safari context, the racial element is very difficult to look away from.

我想说的是，在非洲狩猎的背景下，种族因素是很难忽视的。

It feels very central to the whole model, which is often that people coming on these safaris with a lot of money are almost invariably white.

这对整个模式来说非常重要，因为通常带着很多钱来参加这些旅行的人几乎都是白人。

These days, actually, mainly American, although in the past they tended to be European and often British.

实际上，现在主要是美国人，尽管过去他们往往是欧洲人，而且通常是英国人。

And so, those dynamics are very strong and are really, I think, at the heart of why a lot of Black Africans are uncomfortable with the model of trophy hunting.

因此，这些动力非常强大，我认为，这确实是许多非洲黑人对战利品狩猎模式感到不舒服的核心原因。

And, it's not so much around the ethics around shooting animals themselves, but it's more about this feeling that it's continuing or preserving colonial ways of interacting between different groups of people.

而且，这与其说是关于射杀动物本身的道德规范，不如说是关于这种感觉，即它正在延续或保留不同人群之间互动的殖民方式。

And, I think that that actually became, to me, the biggest issue that I could see.

而且，我认为这实际上成为我能看到的最大问题。

Russ Roberts: You're renting--you're giving a license, literally and figuratively, to people to come from the outside.

拉斯·罗伯茨（Russ Roberts）：你在租房——无论从字面意义上还是象征意义上，你都在向来自外部的人们发放许可证。

Forget the racial element: It's just a non-native, non-indigenous, non-national element comes.

忘记种族因素吧：这只是一种非本土、非本土、非民族的因素。

And, in a way, that's what tourism is, generally .

从某种意义上说，这就是旅游业的一般意义。

And of course, it's also a little bit controversial in the modern era.

当然，它在现代也存在一些争议。

Right?

正确的？

Europe--just to take an example--parts of Europe are a giant museum.

欧洲——仅举个例子——欧洲的部分地区是一座巨大的博物馆。

And, there's not a great thriving economy in some of the countries that have this museum-like quality.

而且，在一些具有博物馆般品质的国家，经济并不繁荣。

And so, you rent , essentially, the opportunity for people to admire your landscape or your museum, literal museum, or your quaint, narrow street with the cobblestones.

因此，本质上，你租用了人们欣赏你的风景、你的博物馆、真正的博物馆，或者你那古色古香、狭窄的鹅卵石街道的机会。

And, the outsider sighs and takes up space in what was once a relatively abandoned cafe and is now overwhelmed by foreigners.

而且，局外人叹了口气，在曾经相对废弃的咖啡馆里占据了空间，现在已经被外国人淹没了。

And, it's one of the many challenges of a global world.

而且，这是全球化世界面临的众多挑战之一。

In a way, it's a beautiful thing.

从某种意义上说，这是一件美丽的事情。

You know, right now, we're in the middle of the World Cup.

你知道，现在我们正处于世界杯中期。

There's hordes--I think it's an accurate word--hordes of fans descending on American cities with their native, imported, foreign rites of music, song, celebration.

有成群结队的——我认为这是一个准确的词——成群结队的歌迷带着他们本土的、进口的、外国的音乐、歌曲和庆祝仪式涌入美国城市。

Rowing, if you're from Norway.

划船，如果你来自挪威。

And, it's beautiful.

而且，它很漂亮。

I mean, the Americans have embraced these folks.

我的意思是，美国人已经拥抱了这些人。

The foreigners are shocked that America is a relatively friendly place.

外国人对美国是一个相对友好的地方感到震惊。

And it's a big giant love fest.

这是一场巨大的爱情盛宴。

It doesn't feel that way when you think about selling a license to come on safari, say, for the equivalent of something around $70- to $100,000, to kill something to put on your trophy wall back in your giant home in--wherever it is in America.

当你考虑以大约 70 到 10 万美元的价格出售狩猎许可证，杀死一些东西并将其挂在你的大房子里的奖杯墙上时，无论它在美国的哪个地方，你都会有这种感觉。

It's not quite as easy to romanticize.

浪漫化并不那么容易。

Cal Flyn: I guess what's being rented--the renting is the hunting itself and also the experience of the land.

卡尔·弗林：我想租的是什么——租的是狩猎本身，也是土地的体验。

And so, part of what's sewn into the hunting reserve model is that people who live locally aren't really able to use it.

因此，狩猎保护区模式的一部分内容是，居住在当地的人们实际上无法使用它。

In the past, this would have been people were not able to--I don't know--gather firewood.

在过去，这可能是人们无法——我不知道——拾柴火。

And indeed, this is kind of the case in lots of places where they're practicing trophy hunting in Africa today.

事实上，今天在非洲许多地方进行战利品狩猎的地方都是这种情况。

So, there were local villages on the edges and even inside this special reserve in Niassa.

因此，尼亚萨这个特别保护区的边缘甚至内部都有当地村庄。

And, they have deals, essentially, with the owners or the managers of the land, of what they're allowed to do.

而且，他们本质上是与土地所有者或管理者达成协议，决定他们可以做什么。

And often that doesn't include hunting, and so the residents of the hunting reserve are not able to hunt themselves.

通常这不包括狩猎，因此狩猎保护区的居民无法自己狩猎。

And, I guess that's what's being rented out.

而且，我猜这就是出租的地方。

And it depends who is doing the renting.

这取决于谁在出租。

So, in other countries--I think in Namibia--it's a lot more community-run.

所以，在其他国家——我想在纳米比亚——更多的是社区管理。

And so, it tends to be a happier model because it's the community themselves renting out, rather than a landowner, a population, and then a lot of negotiation about who gets to use what.

因此，这往往是一个更快乐的模式，因为出租的是社区本身，而不是土地所有者、人口，然后就谁可以使用什么进行大量谈判。

Russ Roberts: Well, I think what's nice about the elephants--I haven't kept up with this literature at all, but we have episodes going back to 2006.

拉斯·罗伯茨：嗯，我认为大象的优点是——我根本没有关注这些文献，但我们有可以追溯到 2006 年的剧集。

I know in the early days we had a number of episodes of the program on this question.

我知道早期我们有很多节目都在讨论这个问题。

But, the idea was that the village had control of it.

但是，这个想法是村庄拥有控制权。

And, it wasn't so much for conservation or earmarked.

而且，这并不是为了保护或指定用途。

It was that the village is really poor, and the opportunity to take care of the elephants doesn't come as expensive, not financially.

那是因为这个村庄真的很穷，照顾大象的机会并不昂贵，经济上也不是这样。

It's just that--it's not a job.

只是——这不是一份工作。

They don't belong to anyone.

它们不属于任何人。

But, if you tell the village that they're allowed to sell a certain number of permits to kill certain numbers of elephants, then they'll have the incentive to not have people poach them without payment, which means that the village can have an economy based around this practice.

但是，如果你告诉村庄他们可以出售一定数量的许可证来杀死一定数量的大象，那么他们就会有动力不让人们在没有报酬的情况下偷猎大象，这意味着村庄可以拥有基于这种做法的经济。

I'm pretty hard-nosed about these things generally, but there is something untoward or unseemly about it.

一般来说，我对这些事情相当顽固，但也有一些不愉快或不体面的事情。

But, the alternative is awful.

但是，替代方案是可怕的。

So, that usually is decisive for me.

所以，这通常对我来说是决定性的。

So, the idea that it's the village owning the resource, the wildlife, even if it doesn't literally own it in the Western sense of property rights that you might be used to, changes everything.

因此，村庄拥有资源、野生动物的想法改变了一切，即使它并不真正拥有你可能习惯的西方产权意义上的所有权。

Cal Flyn: Yes.

卡尔·弗林：是的。

And, I think it's pretty complicated to have--I don't know, to speak to the village as a single entity.

而且，我认为将村庄作为一个整体进行对话是相当复杂的——我不知道。

Often, you get a lot of--

通常，你会得到很多——

Cal Flyn: very dissenting views about what that is and what's the best thing to do.

Cal Flyn：对于什么是最好的事情以及什么是最好的事情有非常不同的看法。

Cal Flyn: And, it might be importing an understanding of economics that has not been traditional locally, and so it takes quite a lot to align.

卡尔·弗林：而且，它可能会引入对本地传统经济学不熟悉的理解，因此需要花很多时间来调整。

But, nevertheless, you do see in places where--for example, I mentioned that model that they use in areas of Namibia, where it's the community that is running the actual trophy hunting itself.

但是，尽管如此，你确实会在一些地方看到——例如，我提到了他们在纳米比亚地区使用的模型，那里的社区正在运行实际的战利品狩猎活动。

Whereas, if you compare it to somewhere like Kenya, where hunting has been illegal--it's been banned since the 1970s--actually, what has happened in a lot of those places is that what was once rangeland has been converted to economically active farmland.

然而，如果你将其与肯尼亚这样的地方进行比较，那里的狩猎是非法的——自 20 世纪 70 年代以来就被禁止——实际上，许多地方发生的情况是，曾经的牧场变成了经济活跃的农田。

And so, the numbers have crashed, not necessarily because they've been hunted out, but for other reasons: the land has been made economically useful in a different way.

因此，数量锐减，不一定是因为它们被猎杀，而是因为其他原因：土地以不同的方式发挥了经济用途。

And, I think I did find that pretty convincing, myself.

而且，我想我自己确实发现这很有说服力。

Russ Roberts: Cool.

拉斯·罗伯茨：酷。

I want to read an excerpt, which I loved.

我想读一段我喜欢的摘录。

And then, I'd like us to talk a little bit about the difference between wilderness and nature.

然后，我想让我们谈谈荒野和自然之间的区别。

Nature is described as red in tooth and claw.

大自然被描述为红色的牙齿和爪子。

And, that gets at the predator idea.

而且，这涉及到掠夺者的想法。

It gets at some of the danger of nature, in some sense.

从某种意义上说，它解决了自然的一些危险。

But you write the following:

但你写了以下内容：

End of quote.

报价结束。

Really beautiful.

真的很漂亮。

And, it gets back partly to what I was saying earlier about people living in a digital world.

而且，这在一定程度上又回到了我之前所说的关于生活在数字世界中的人们。

A large part of humanity--in fact, you could say, almost by definition--civilization is avoiding those things that you write about so nicely in that paragraph.

人类的很大一部分——事实上，你可以说，几乎按照定义——文明正在避免你在那段中写得如此精彩的那些事情。

It's not having to deal with nature.

它不必与自然打交道。

It's isolating ourselves away from nature.

它使我们与自然隔绝。

It's protecting ourselves from the elements, and so on.

它可以保护我们免受自然因素的侵害，等等。

What would you say to those folks?

你会对那些人说什么？

Are they missing something?

他们错过了什么吗？

Or, should we just leave them alone?

或者，我们应该让他们独自一人吗？

Cal Flyn: No. I don't think they are.

卡尔·弗林：不。我不认为他们是。

I don't think they are.

我不认为他们是。

I think that speaks to something central in human nature, which is, I think, that the level to which you seek out discomfort or seek out simplicity or seek out--yeah, 'discomfort' is the best way to put it, I would say.

我认为这说明了人性的核心，即你寻求不适或寻求简单或寻求的程度——是的，我想说，“不适”是最好的表达方式。

This is like comfort versus discomfort.

这就像舒适与不适。

And, you see this bubbling up in lots of different ways that people will talk about wilderness over time, that there's this sense that: comfort, of course, is good.

而且，你会看到随着时间的推移，人们会以多种不同的方式谈论荒野，有这样一种感觉：舒适当然是好的。

It allows us to make our lives.

它让我们能够创造自己的生活。

It allows us to have children.

它允许我们生孩子。

It allows us to be comfortable and to think and be intellectual, and all of this kind of thing.

它让我们感到舒适，能够思考，变得理智，等等。

But, after a while, people begin to worry that they are too comfortable.

但是，过了一段时间，人们开始担心他们太舒服了。

And, I see this in myself all the time, but you also see it in writing.

而且，我一直在自己身上看到这一点，但你在写作中也看到了这一点。

I read this wonderful book about the anti-modernist movement.

我读了这本关于反现代主义运动的精彩书。

So, this is around the beginning of the 20th century, just before as well, when we're getting electricity, we're getting anesthetics, we're getting all sorts of creature comforts that seem to dull experience for people.

所以，这是在 20 世纪初，也就是之前，当我们获得电力、麻醉剂、各种物质享受时，这些对人们来说似乎是乏味的体验。

And so, there was a lot of writing around that time that people were somehow not real , that life was somehow not real.

所以，那个时候有很多文章说人们在某种程度上是不真实的，生活在某种程度上是不真实的。

And, the way that we talk about the Internet now, that we're living through our phones, that it's not real.

而且，我们现在谈论互联网的方式，我们通过手机生活，它不是真实的。

And, it's because we're too comfortable, or it's too easy, or we're able to be lazy.

而且，这是因为我们太舒服了，或者太容易了，或者我们可以偷懒。

And, there is almost like a self-righting mechanism in so many people.

而且，很多人身上几乎都有一种自我纠正的机制。

You see it in intellectual movements again and again, of saying, 'No, no, we've got to go out there, and we've got to be real people.

你一次又一次地在知识分子运动中看到，‘不，不，我们必须走出去，我们必须成为真正的人。

We've got to walk through the mountains,' or whatever it is: prove ourselves in a physical way.

我们必须穿越山脉，或者无论什么：以身体的方式证明我们自己。

But, it's also to do with the confrontation that I was talking about earlier: that I personally, I guess, I'm very primed to.

但是，这也与我之前谈到的对抗有关：我个人，我想，我已经做好了准备。

I'm very interested in this, and I guess I'm maybe more extreme on the spectrum than a lot of people.

我对此非常感兴趣，而且我想我可能比很多人更极端。

But nevertheless, I think we all have that sense.

但尽管如此，我想我们都有这种感觉。

And, it's the same anxiety that underlies a lot of what we worry about when we worry about modern society: that it's all old wine in new bottles.

而且，当我们担心现代社会时，我们所担心的许多事情背后也隐藏着同样的焦虑：都是新瓶装旧酒。

That this searching for the wilderness bubbles up again and again.

这种对荒野的探索一次又一次地出现。

And, it's because we're scared of being too comfortable.

而且，这是因为我们害怕太舒服。

And, we do want to have this confrontation with the other, whatever that is.

而且，我们确实希望与对方发生这种对抗，无论那是什么。

And, we often find that in the outdoors, and it takes lots of different forms.

而且，我们经常发现在户外，它有很多不同的形式。

It takes forms that are climatically relevant to us.

它采取与我们气候相关的形式。

So, if you're a Irish Catholic in the early medieval times, that might involve you throwing yourself out into the sea in a coracle.

所以，如果你是中世纪早期的爱尔兰天主教徒，这可能会让你把自己扔进小船里。

If you're a Russian hermit in the 18th century, it might be you finding a really lonely spot in a forest.

如果您是 18 世纪的俄罗斯隐士，您可能会在森林中找到一个非常孤独的地方。

It takes different forms, but it is still the same searching for what is real, what is solid.

它有不同的形式，但它仍然是相同的，寻找什么是真实的，什么是坚实的。

And, maybe it's so real and so solid or so natural, it becomes super natural.

而且，也许它是如此真实、如此坚实或如此自然，它变得超级自然。

And, I think that that is the great underlying force in this wilderness idea, and it's what I realized.

而且，我认为这就是这个荒野想法的巨大潜在力量，这也是我所意识到的。

It was a siren call for me.

这对我来说是一个警报。

Russ Roberts: My guest today has been Cal Flyn.

拉斯·罗伯茨：我今天的客人是卡尔·弗林。

Her book is The Savage Landscape .

她的书是《野蛮的风景》。

Cal, thanks for being part of EconTalk.

Cal，感谢您参与 EconTalk。