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What if you did everything right and discovered on your deathbed that you've wasted your life?
如果你做的一切都是正确的，却在临终时发现自己浪费了生命怎么办？
Rabbi and author David Wolpe talks about Tolstoy's "The Death of Ivan Ilyich" with EconTalk's Russ Roberts .
拉比和作家大卫·沃尔普与 EconTalk 的拉斯·罗伯茨谈论托尔斯泰的《伊凡·伊里奇之死》。
Weaving Rabbi Wolpe's own brushes with mortality and his years at the bedsides of the dying into Tolstoy's masterpiece, they talk about the lies we tell ourselves about death, our longing for honesty and human touch at the end, and the way that death forces us to take a clear-eyed look at life.
他们将拉比·沃尔普本人与死亡的接触以及他在临终者床边的岁月编织成托尔斯泰的杰作，讲述了我们对自己说的有关死亡的谎言，我们对最后的诚实和人情味的渴望，以及死亡如何迫使我们清醒地看待生活。
They conclude by offering advice on how we can avoid Ivan's regrets.
他们最后就如何避免伊万的遗憾提出了建议。
Is there a way to die without causing pain to those you most love?
有没有一种方法可以在不给你最爱的人带来痛苦的情况下死去？
Is there a way to die in which you can know that death will not cause disruption in the lives you most deeply care about?
有没有一种死亡方式可以让你知道死亡不会对你最关心的生活造成干扰？
These are not the questions that Ivan Ilyich asks or I suspect which Tolstoy asked.
这些不是伊凡·伊里奇问的问题，也不是我怀疑托尔斯泰问的问题。
But I appreciate Rabbi Wolpe and Russ Roberts revealing the questions asked by by someone lost in the isolation of having cared only for themself and discovering at the end that what matters most is being connected to and being cared for by another.
但我很欣赏拉比·沃尔普（Rabbi Wolpe）和拉斯·罗伯茨（Russ Roberts）揭示了一个迷失在只关心自己的孤立中的人所提出的问题，并最终发现最重要的是与他人联系并受到他人的照顾。
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了解您的评论数据是如何处理的。
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本播客节目中提到的其他想法和人物：
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更多阅读材料和背景资源：
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更多相关的 EconTalk 播客剧集，按类别：
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Intro.
简介。
[Recording date: September 16, 2026.]
[记录日期：2026年9月16日。]
Russ Roberts: Today is September 16th, 2026, and my guest is author and Rabbi David Wolpe.
Russ Roberts：今天是 2026 年 9 月 16 日，我的嘉宾是作家兼拉比 David Wolpe。
He is the Max Webb Emeritus Rabbi at Sinai Temple in Los Angeles, and he's currently Scholar in Residence for the Maimonides Fund.
他是洛杉矶西奈圣殿的马克斯·韦伯荣誉拉比，目前是迈蒙尼德基金会的常驻学者。
Our topic for today is Tolstoy's short story--you could call it a novella--"The Death of Ivan Ilyich." David, welcome to EconTalk.
我们今天的主题是托尔斯泰的短篇小说——你可以称之为中篇小说——《伊凡·伊里奇之死》。大卫，欢迎来到 EconTalk。
David Wolpe: Thank you.
大卫·沃尔普：谢谢。
I'm very happy to be here.
我很高兴来到这里。
Russ Roberts: Now, you can't spoil this book because the title kind of gives it away.
拉斯·罗伯茨：现在，你不能破坏这本书，因为标题已经暴露了它。
It opens with Ivan's funeral.
它以伊万的葬礼开始。
He's going to die.
他快要死了。
And, like many great books, the plot is not so compelling.
而且，像许多伟大的书籍一样，情节并不那么引人注目。
There's nothing dramatic about it.
这没什么戏剧性的。
A man has a somewhat seemingly normal life, he gets sick, and he dies; and we watch that through Tolstoy's prose.
一个人过着看似正常的生活，他会生病，也会死亡；我们通过托尔斯泰的散文来观察这一点。
That happens all the time: people die.
这种事经常发生：人们会死。
And yet, there is something deeply haunting, and unbearable, and painful about this book.
然而，这本书里有一些令人难以忘怀、难以忍受和痛苦的东西。
So, we're going to share our reactions to the book and talk about--I suppose we'll talk about death a little bit along the way because this book is sort of about death.
所以，我们将分享我们对这本书的反应，并讨论——我想我们会一路讨论一些关于死亡的话题，因为这本书有点关于死亡。
Of course, it's also about life.
当然，这也与生活有关。
David Wolpe: It is extraordinary how many different conversations you could have in a book that is about 50 pages.
David Wolpe：在一本大约 50 页的书中可以进行这么多不同的对话，这真是太不可思议了。
And, I'll start by saying that Tolstoy makes a really interesting choice.
而且，我首先要说的是，托尔斯泰做出了一个非常有趣的选择。
He does not start with Ivan Ilyich dying.
他一开始并不是伊凡·伊里奇的死。
He starts with people's reactions to his death.
他从人们对他的死亡的反应开始。
David Wolpe: And, I could just imagine a modern editor looking at this book and saying, like, 'You should cut off that first part and just get to the dying.' But the truth is that it so parallels not only my experience--but, one thing that I want to make sure to say about the beginning is, when people hear about the death, their immediate reaction is, 'What does this mean in terms of my promotion?' And, there is a beautiful halakha --that is, a Jewish law--that when you know someone has died who left you money, you first say the blessing, ' HaTov v'haMeitiv, ' which blesses God who is good and does good.
大卫·沃尔普：而且，我可以想象一位现代编辑看着这本书并说，“你应该剪掉第一部分，直接讲到垂死的部分。”但事实是，这不仅与我的经历如此相似，而且，关于一开始我想确保说的一件事是，当人们听到死亡的消息时，他们的第一反应是，“这对我的晋升意味着什么？”而且，有一个美丽的哈拉卡（halakha）——即犹太律法——当你知道有人死了给你留下钱时，你首先要说祝福语“HaTov v'haMeitiv”，这会祝福善良且行善的上帝。
And then, you say, ' Baruch Dayan HaEmet, ' blessed be the righteous judge.
然后，你说，“Baruch Dayan HaEmet”，正义的法官是有福的。
In other words, the blessing that you say about death.
换句话说，就是你所说的关于死亡的祝福。
Because, Judaism is realistic and knows you're going to have a moment of, 'Oh, I get the money,' and if you get rid of that in your mind, then you can fully inhabit the space of mourning.
因为，犹太教是现实的，知道你会有一个时刻，“哦，我得到了钱，”如果你在脑海中摆脱它，那么你就可以完全沉浸在哀悼的空间中。
And, Tolstoy, with his usual acuity, points that out at the very beginning because the person who thinks about promotion also has moments of genuine sadness.
而且，托尔斯泰以其一贯的敏锐性在一开始就指出了这一点，因为考虑晋升的人也有真正悲伤的时刻。
Russ Roberts: The other thing, of course, these people are feeling--which, it's such a strange book because the first five or so pages are quite comical--
拉斯·罗伯茨：当然，还有一件事，这些人感觉——这是一本很奇怪的书，因为前五页左右相当滑稽——
Russ Roberts: despite the subject matter.
拉斯·罗伯茨：尽管有主题。
He's making fun of their human reactions.
他在取笑他们的人类反应。
He says, "'Dead, he's dead,' each of them thought.
他说：“‘死了，他死了，’他们每个人都想。
'But, I'm not.'"
‘但是，我不是。’”
Russ Roberts: Which is, unfortunately, and often what human beings feel at a funeral in the face of death.
拉斯·罗伯茨：不幸的是，这也是人类在葬礼上面对死亡时的感受。
We think about ourselves, often; and Tolstoy is very clear about that.
我们经常思考自己；托尔斯泰对此非常清楚。
David Wolpe: So, I mean, first of all, how often do you read the obituaries--if you read the obituaries--and say, 'Oh, well, it's okay because this person had congenital heart disease.
大卫·沃尔普：所以，我的意思是，首先，你多久读一次讣告——如果你读了讣告——然后说，‘哦，好吧，没关系，因为这个人患有先天性心脏病。
I don't have that, so I'm okay.' We separate ourselves from death almost instinctively.
我没有那个，所以我没事。我们几乎本能地将自己与死亡分开。
And, he also captures the performative aspect of it.
而且，他还捕捉到了它的表演方面。
So, I'll read you this fragment of a sentence.
那么，我将给您读这句话的片段。
It says, "Despite the unpleasant awareness of his own and this woman's falsity." That is, you can't--when you go into a shiva house, you have to be a certain way even if you don't feel that way inside.
上面写着：“尽管他对自己和这个女人的虚假感到不愉快。”也就是说，你不能——当你进入湿婆屋时，你必须采取某种方式，即使你在里面没有这种感觉。
And, it reminds me of a great passage from a book that, well, I think I'll mention once or twice in this, Ernest Becker's Denial of Death .
而且，它让我想起一本书中的一段精彩段落，我想我会在本书中提到一两次，欧内斯特·贝克尔的《否认死亡》。
He has a section where the French writer, Alphonse Daudet, when he was young, went to a funeral, and he hears a cry--or maybe he hears his own cry, I don't remember--and he thinks, 'Wow, that would sound great at the theater.' Because, you're observing yourself even as you're acting, and part of Tolstoy's genius--and it's remarkable how many times in this book he does this--is he reminds you of how you really feel, not how you pretend you feel.
他有一个章节，法国作家阿尔方斯·都德年轻时去参加葬礼，他听到一声哭声——或者也许他听到自己的哭声，我不记得了——他想，“哇，这在剧院听起来很棒。”因为，即使你在表演，你也在观察自己，而托尔斯泰的天才之一——值得注意的是，他在本书中多次这样做——是他提醒你你的真实感受，而不是你假装的感受。
Russ Roberts: And, the characters are often--the way of I think of it, this performative aspect--they're wearing a mask.
拉斯·罗伯茨：而且，角色通常——我的想法是，表演方面——他们戴着面具。
Or, they're trying to wear a mask.
或者，他们试图戴上面具。
You walk into a shiva house, which is the house of mourning where a Jew sits who has lost a loved one, will sit for seven days inside the house, and visitors come.
你走进一座湿婆屋，这是一个哀悼的屋子，一个失去亲人的犹太人会坐在里面，在屋子里坐上7天，然后就会有游客前来。
And, when you enter a shiva house, you do put a mask on.
而且，当你进入湿婆屋时，你确实要戴上面具。
Russ Roberts: It's not a mask necessarily of disguise, but you put your face in what you think it should look--how it should look.
拉斯·罗伯茨：这不一定是伪装的面具，但你把你的脸放在你认为它应该看起来的样子上——它应该是什么样子。
And, that's what happens numerous times in this book.
而且，这正是本书中多次发生的情况。
And in fact, in the non-death scenes--and a serious chunk of the book is about Ivan's life, and his attitudes, and his actions--a life that Tolstoy doesn't think very much of and that Ivan has to confront on his deathbed.
事实上，在非死亡场景中——本书的很大一部分是关于伊万的生活、他的态度和他的行为——托尔斯泰并没有过多考虑这种生活，而伊万在临终前必须面对这种生活。
But, in those moments of life, Ivan is clearly doing what he thinks people like him should do, whether they're rich or have high status.
但是，在人生的那些时刻，伊万显然正在做他认为像他这样的人应该做的事情，无论他们是否富有或地位很高。
There's nothing there .
那里什么也没有。
His life is so hollow, his essence is so hollow.
他的生命是如此空虚，他的本质是如此空虚。
And so, the people who open the book with their attitudes, their public faces versus their private thoughts--the public face is, 'Tut, tut, tsk, tsk.'
因此，那些用他们的态度打开这本书的人，他们的公众面孔与他们的私人想法——公众面孔是，“啧，啧，啧，啧”。
Russ Roberts: Their private thoughts are, 'Hey, I could get his job now that he's gone.' Or, 'Someone will replace him, and then I could get that job.' Or, 'I'll get this money maybe.' Or, 'Maybe there's a way I can get that money,' says his widow.
拉斯·罗伯茨：他们的私下想法是，“嘿，既然他走了，我就可以得到他的工作。”或者，“有人会取代他，然后我就能得到那份工作。”或者，“也许我会得到这笔钱。”或者，“也许我可以通过某种方式拿到这笔钱，”他的遗孀说。
And, she very quickly, after mourning publicly with a false face, is worried about her own financial stability.
而且，在假装公开哀悼之后，她很快就开始担心自己的财务稳定性。
David Wolpe: And, when you say that his life is hollow, it's important that people know that he is intelligent, and decent, and successful, and that makes the hollowness of his life that much more pointed.
大卫·沃尔普：而且，当你说他的生活是空虚的时，重要的是人们知道他是聪明的、正派的、成功的，这使得他生活的空虚变得更加尖锐。
One thing that struck me very much in his description of the hollowness of Ivan Ilyich's life, because I have experienced this myself, is: he liked to feel that he had power and didn't use it.
在他对伊凡·伊里奇空虚生活的描述中，令我印象深刻的一件事是：他喜欢感觉自己拥有权力，但不使用它，因为我自己也经历过这一点。
David Wolpe: That is, he would be with people--and everyone, I think, who has been in any kind of boss situation feels good about themself, like, 'I could be a mean boss, but I'm not.
大卫·沃尔普：也就是说，他会与人打交道——我认为，每个经历过任何老板处境的人都会对自己感觉良好，比如，‘我可以成为一个刻薄的老板，但我不是。
I'm being nice to this person.
我对这个人很好。
And therefore I'm a nice person.' And, that's so--as Tolstoy says--it's so empty, and it's dark in a certain sense.
因此我是一个好人。而且，正如托尔斯泰所说，它是如此空虚，在某种意义上是黑暗的。
Russ Roberts: So, he's a judge in a good chunk of the book, and he holds power over a lot of people.
拉斯·罗伯茨：所以，他在书中的大部分内容中都是法官，并且他对很多人拥有权力。
And, he acts as if he does not wield it, but we as the reader see him, I think, a little less attractively.
而且，他表现得好像他没有运用它，但我认为，作为读者，我们看到他的吸引力有点小。
Russ Roberts: He enjoys not just not wielding the power; he enjoys holding it over the people, which is really despicable.
拉斯·罗伯茨：他不仅喜欢不行使权力，而且喜欢不行使权力。他喜欢把它凌驾于人民之上，这真是卑鄙。
Russ Roberts: He's a remarkably unlikeable husband.
拉斯·罗伯茨：他是一个非常不讨人喜欢的丈夫。
He very early in his marriage, which is very quickly a loveless marriage, he sees his wife as a burden, and he maximizes the amount of time he spends at work, so he doesn't have to be with her or the children.
他在婚姻的早期，很快就成为了无爱的婚姻，他将妻子视为负担，并且他最大限度地花在工作上的时间，这样他就不必陪伴她或孩子。
He's a terrible--he's a non-existent father.
他是一个可怕的——他是一个不存在的父亲。
But, as you say, on the surface, from the outside especially, he has a very successful career, he has a nice living.
但是，正如你所说，从表面上看，尤其是从外部来看，他的事业非常成功，生活也过得很好。
He has a nice wife and children, and a beautiful home.
他有一个贤惠的妻子和孩子，还有一个美丽的家。
And, we see him the way he cannot see himself.
而且，我们以他看不到自己的方式看待他。
Russ Roberts: We see him honestly.
拉斯·罗伯茨：我们诚实地看待他。
And, only toward the end of the book--and we'll of course talk about this--does he begin to see that maybe his life wasn't what he thought it was.
而且，直到书的结尾——我们当然会讨论这一点——他才开始意识到也许他的生活并不是他想象的那样。
David Wolpe: And, some of this, I think, we have to zoom out and say that this was written later in Tolstoy's life after he repudiated the writing of novels.
大卫·沃尔普：而且，我认为，其中一些内容我们必须缩小范围，说这是托尔斯泰在他后来否认小说写作之后写的。
I mean, he writes Anna Karenina , which is one of the great masterpieces of world literature.
我的意思是，他写了《安娜·卡列尼娜》，这是世界文学最伟大的杰作之一。
And then, he repudiates it and says, 'I shouldn't have written it.'
然后，他否认并说：“我不应该写它。”
Then he wants to sort of strip down to the bare essence of what it means to be a human being, and he thinks the adornments of the novel are superfluous.
然后他想剥去人类的本质，他认为小说的装饰是多余的。
And yet, he can't help himself, in a way, from writing these incredibly acute observations; and at least some people have seen in this something of a portrait of his own marriage, which was famously troubled.
然而，在某种程度上，他无法控制自己写下这些极其敏锐的观察；至少有些人在这本书中看到了他自己的婚姻的写照，众所周知，他的婚姻陷入了困境。
And, he paid attention to some of his kids, but not others.
而且，他关注了他的一些孩子，但没有关注其他孩子。
And, also, almost offhandedly, it says, 'And, in the course of this, two children died.
而且，它几乎是随口说道，“在这个过程中，两个孩子死了。”
And then another one dies.' And, in the narration, it's not dealt with at all.
然后另一只死了。而且，在叙述中，根本没有涉及到这一点。
It's just like, 'And, he took a walk, and a kid died.
就像，‘而且，他散步时，一个孩子死了。
He had breakfast, and a kid died.' And, that's also--Tolstoy lost a number of children--and I think it's just stunning to think how much of life Ivan Ilyich doesn't live.
他吃了早餐，一个孩子就死了。”而且，这也是——托尔斯泰失去了很多孩子——想到伊凡·伊里奇没有活过多少生活，我认为这真是令人震惊。
Russ Roberts: Yeah, of course.
拉斯·罗伯茨：是的，当然。
And, the wife is a minor character, but--
而且，妻子只是个小人物，但是——
Russ Roberts: I have to read one quote from her.
拉斯·罗伯茨：我必须读一下她的一句话。
She's not terribly admirable.
她并不是非常令人钦佩。
This is, again, in the very beginning when someone says, 'Did he suffer terribly?
这又是一开始，有人说：‘他受苦了吗？
How was it?' And she says--I mean, you can barely read this with a straight face.
它怎么样？'她说——我的意思是，你几乎无法板着脸读到这篇文章。
In fact, I know an old joke which I won't say about that this is parodying.
事实上，我知道一个老笑话，我不会说这是模仿。
So, quote: "He screamed and screamed,"--this is her, this is the wife talking about Ivan when he's dying:
所以，引述一下：“他尖叫啊尖叫，”——这是她，这是妻子在伊万垂死时谈论他：
End of quote.
报价结束。
So, just a couple things about that, then you can give your reaction.
因此，只需简单说明几件事，然后您就可以给出您的反应。
First of all, a little self-centered, right?
首先，有点自我中心，对吧？
Russ Roberts: He's suffering, and she's complaining about her challenges of trying to endure his screaming.
拉斯·罗伯茨：他很痛苦，而她则抱怨自己难以忍受他的尖叫。
His pain was so horrible, he screamed for three straight days.
他的痛苦是如此可怕，他连续三天尖叫。
But, at the very end of the book, when he is going through these three days, we are told by the narrator, by Tolstoy, that it was two closed doors.
但是，在书的最后，当他经历这三天时，叙述者托尔斯泰告诉我们，这是两扇紧闭的门。
So, see: it's bad enough that she's pushed herself two closed doors away from her husband without consoling him--
所以，看吧：她把自己与丈夫关上两扇门，却没有安慰他，这已经够糟糕了——
Russ Roberts: But, in her retelling, she makes it even worse.
拉斯·罗伯茨：但是，在她的复述中，她让事情变得更糟。
Meaning, it was so loud that three closed doors weren't sufficient.
意思是，声音太大了，关上三扇门都不够。
Russ Roberts: But, of course, we as the reader are thinking, 'Why weren't you comforting him?'
拉斯·罗伯茨：但是，当然，我们作为读者会想，“你为什么不安慰他？”
David Wolpe: Yes.
大卫·沃尔普：是的。
Yeah, which she really doesn't.
是的，她确实不这么认为。
I mean, there is that moment, if I remember, at the very end where some sympathy is restored.
我的意思是，如果我记得的话，在最后的那一刻，人们恢复了一些同情心。
But, a lot of this is a sort of sotto voce power struggle between the husband and the wife until he gets beyond it, which is part of what the ending of the book is about.
但是，这在很大程度上是丈夫和妻子之间的一种低声权力斗争，直到他超越它，这也是本书结局的一部分。
But, that's why I say, I mean, it really is--which is astonishing considering its brevity--it really is lots of novels in one.
但是，这就是为什么我说，我的意思是，它确实是——考虑到它的简洁性，这是令人惊讶的——它确实是很多小说合而为一。
It's about illness, it's about death, it's about family.
与疾病有关，与死亡有关，与家庭有关。
It's about the lies we tell ourselves.
这是关于我们告诉自己的谎言。
It's a critique of the kind of bourgeois life that Tolstoy rejected.
这是对托尔斯泰所拒绝的资产阶级生活的批判。
And, all of this is contained in these few pages, and certainly much more.
而且，所有这些都包含在这几页中，当然还有更多。
But, at least for me, and I suspect for you, it's really about the difficulty of coming to grips with one's own mortality.
但是，至少对我来说，我怀疑对你来说，这实际上是关于应对自己的死亡的困难。
Russ Roberts: Yeah, I'd say there's two things.
拉斯·罗伯茨：是的，我想说有两件事。
That's the overwhelming theme: that, even though we all know rationally in our brains that death is inevitable, we often don't live our lives that way.
这是一个压倒性的主题：尽管我们的大脑都理性地知道死亡是不可避免的，但我们通常不会那样生活。
And we also often don't want to face that; and a lot of the book is about that looking-away.
我们也常常不想面对这个问题；这本书的很多内容都是关于移开视线的。
Irvin Yalom has a book called, I think it's called Staring at the Sun .
欧文·亚洛姆（Irvin Yalom）有一本书，我想它的名字叫《凝视太阳》。
The sun is death.
太阳就是死亡。
You can't look at the sun: you'd have to turn away.
你不能直视太阳：你必须转过头去。
Russ Roberts: But, I think the other theme of the book, and it's below the surface, is what is a good life?
拉斯·罗伯茨：但是，我认为这本书的另一个主题，在表面之下，是什么是美好的生活？
And it's clear that this question has never crossed Ivan's mind--crossed his mind.
很明显，这个问题从来没有在伊万的脑海中闪过——闪过他的脑海。
And it's clear that Tolstoy judges him for that.
很明显，托尔斯泰因此评价了他。
Russ Roberts: I want to read one paragraph that I thought kind of captured this.
拉斯·罗伯茨：我想读一段我认为抓住了这一点的段落。
There are many things that are negative about Ivan.
伊万有很多负面的事情。
We've mentioned he's not a great husband, he's not a great father.
我们已经提到他不是一个伟大的丈夫，他不是一个伟大的父亲。
He's a poseur.
他是个装腔作势的人。
He can be cruel, implicitly or explicitly, in his job.
他在工作中可能会或明或暗地残忍。
It's very mild, by the way.
顺便说一句，它非常温和。
There's nothing heavy-handed in that.
这没有什么严厉的。
But, this paragraph I'm going to read--in a certain sense, it's such a mild criticism.
但是，我要读的这一段——从某种意义上说，这是一个温和的批评。
But I think it really gets to the heart of the judgment of Tolstoy of this style of living that you alluded to earlier about the bourgeois existence.
但我认为这确实触及了托尔斯泰对你之前提到的关于资产阶级存在的生活方式的判断的核心。
Here's the quote:
这是引用：
So, I think the judgment here is really a criticism of Rene Girard's idea of mimesis, this idea of imitating--
所以，我认为这里的判断实际上是对雷内·吉拉德的模仿观念的批评，这种模仿的观念——
Russ Roberts: instead of living an authentic life.
拉斯·罗伯茨：而不是过真实的生活。
He lives to live like others rather than living his own life.
他活着是为了像别人一样生活，而不是过自己的生活。
David Wolpe: It reminds me of that wonderful quote from the critic Randall Jarrell about 'the herd of independent minds.' It's: everybody thinks they're being unique, but in fact they're exactly like everybody else.
大卫·沃尔普：这让我想起评论家兰德尔·贾雷尔关于“独立思想的群体”的精彩言论。它是：每个人都认为自己是独一无二的，但实际上他们与其他人完全相同。
And, when you said he hasn't asked himself what a good life is, I think if you had approached him on the street and said, 'What's a good life?' he would say, 'Exactly what I'm living.'
而且，当你说他没有问自己什么是美好生活时，我想如果你在街上走近他并问他，“什么是美好生活？”他会说：“这就是我现在的生活。”
David Wolpe: Because, he's very pleased with his life for a long time, except at one point where he loses out on an opportunity to advance.
大卫·沃尔普：因为，他在很长一段时间内对自己的生活感到非常满意，除了有一次他失去了晋升的机会。
But then he gets a better opportunity and advances, and everything is sunshine again because that's really all that it takes for him to be happy or unhappy.
但随后他得到了更好的机会并取得进步，一切又变得阳光明媚，因为这确实是他快乐或不快乐所需要的一切。
And in the meantime, as I said, just to mention it again, two of his children have died.
与此同时，正如我所说，再次提及，他的两个孩子去世了。
That doesn't seem to make him unhappy.
这似乎并没有让他不高兴。
But, that he's passed over for preferment, that is unbearable to him.
但是，他的晋升却被忽略了，这对他来说是难以忍受的。
Russ Roberts: So, you know, the way Tolstoy summarizes his life, I think more than once, is 'pleasant.' Which seems like a positive word.
拉斯·罗伯茨：所以，你知道，我不止一次认为托尔斯泰总结自己生活的方式是“愉快的”。这似乎是一个积极的词。
Russ Roberts: Sometimes he calls it 'decent,' or 'decorous.' And it's clearly, in Tolstoy's vocabulary, an indictment, not praise.
拉斯·罗伯茨：有时他称之为“体面”或“得体”。用托尔斯泰的话说，这显然是一种控诉，而不是赞扬。
David Wolpe: Right, right.
大卫·沃尔普：对，对。
Yes.
是的。
I mean, Tolstoy is one of those--like Nietzsche in a very different way--he's one of those uncompromising spirits who will not let you rest with what is nice.
我的意思是，托尔斯泰就是其中之一——就像尼采以一种非常不同的方式——他是那些不妥协的精神之一，不会让你安于美好的事物。
You know, it reminds me--do you know that great line from Into the Woods, Sondheim's Into the Woods : 'You're not good.
你知道，它让我想起——你知道桑德海姆的《走进树林》中的那句伟大的台词吗：“你不好。”
You're just nice'?
你只是很好’？
And, it's the same thing here, is: Ivan Ilyich is nice, but he has never grappled with anything deeper than the everyday of niceness and never been forced to.
而且，这里的情况是一样的：伊万·伊里奇（Ivan Ilyich）很友善，但他从未尝试过比日常友善更深层的事情，也从未被迫这样做。
And when he would be forced to, he ignores it until the day when the onset of his illness is actually hanging up a screen, which I think is also symbolic.
当他被迫这样做时，他会忽略它，直到有一天他的病发作实际上挂起了屏幕，我认为这也是象征性的。
It's like, I'm putting up one of those masks in the house; and he falls, and then he starts to get sick.
就像，我在房子里放了一个面具；他摔倒了，然后开始生病。
Russ Roberts: And, we never learn exactly what's wrong with him.
拉斯·罗伯茨：而且，我们永远不知道他究竟出了什么问题。
Russ Roberts: And, part of the dark comedy of this book--which, there's not a lot of it, but in this case it is somewhat dark comedy--is that no doctor, no expert can quite diagnose him, which gives his wife the freedom to complain that, 'This is all his fault because he doesn't take his medicine, or he doesn't sit right,' or whatever it is.
拉斯·罗伯茨：这本书的黑色喜剧的一部分——虽然不是很多，但在这种情况下有点黑色喜剧——没有医生、没有专家可以完全诊断他，这让他的妻子可以自由地抱怨，“这都是他的错，因为他不吃药，或者他坐得不对，”或者其他什么。
He doesn't follow the doctor's orders.
他不遵守医生的指示。
We, of course, know that that has nothing to do with his problem.
当然，我们知道这与他的问题无关。
We know that medicine is flawed in the end of the 19th and early parts of the 20th century.
我们知道，19 世纪末和 20 世纪初的医学是有缺陷的。
And that he's just dying.
他快要死了。
And, that is uncertain, by the way, for quite a while, other than the fact that we know from the opening that he's going to die, but it's uncertain to him .
而且，顺便说一句，在很长一段时间内，这都是不确定的，除了我们从一开始就知道他会死的事实之外，但这对他来说是不确定的。
He's always holding out hope.
他总是抱有希望。
He's always evading the possibility.
他总是在逃避这种可能性。
David Wolpe: Right.
大卫·沃尔普：对。
There is also in this, which you bring up, another theme of the novel, novelette, is the way doctors speak to patients--
还有你提到的这本小说的另一个主题，中篇小说，就是医生对病人说话的方式——
David Wolpe: and patients want to be spoken to.
David Wolpe：患者希望与患者交谈。
Because the doctor is talking only about symptoms, and he basically wants to know--he's like, 'I'm a person, here.
因为医生只谈论症状，他基本上想知道——他就像，‘我是一个人，在这里。
Am I going to live?
我还要活下去吗？
Am I going to die?
我会死吗？
Am I going to suffer?' And they're, like, 'Well, the tests of the abdomen show,'--and so, there's that also, which again, because human nature hasn't changed, it persists to this day.
我会受苦吗？他们说，“嗯，腹部测试表明，”——所以，还有这样的情况，因为人性没有改变，所以它一直持续到今天。
So, there is also that.
所以，还有这样的事。
Russ Roberts: And, part of the reason he hates them is that eventually, they come to remind him of the way he used to interact with supplicants in his court.
拉斯·罗伯茨：而且，他讨厌他们的部分原因是，最终，他们让他想起了他过去在法庭上与恳求者互动的方式。
That, it's really all about this deceptive non-communication that takes place in words, but doesn't help anyone understand what's going on.
这实际上是一种以言语形式进行的欺骗性的非沟通，但并不能帮助任何人理解正在发生的事情。
He keeps saying, 'Is it bad?'
他总是说：“这很糟糕吗？”
Russ Roberts: 'Am I going to die?' And, they won't answer him.
拉斯·罗伯茨：“我会死吗？”而且，他们不会回答他。
And, that, of course, hasn't changed.
当然，这一点并没有改变。
Russ Roberts: I wonder if you'd reflect for a minute: having been the Rabbi of a congregation for 26 years, you must have been in a lot of hospital rooms visiting a lot of sick people.
拉斯·罗伯茨：我想知道你是否会想一想：作为会众的拉比已有 26 年了，你一定去过很多医院的病房探望过很多病人。
And, you must have seen this both charade that takes place--
而且，你一定已经看到了这两个发生的谜题——
Russ Roberts: where the patient isn't told the truth.
拉斯·罗伯茨：病人没有被告知真相。
But, also, sometimes I'm sure there are people who demanded the truth and heard it.
但是，有时我确信有人要求真相并听到真相。
David Wolpe: Yeah.
大卫·沃尔普：是的。
I would say I saw three different kinds of dying, and I'm not sure what the variable was.
我想说我看到了三种不同的死亡方式，但我不确定其中的变量是什么。
It did not necessarily seem to be the person's character beforehand.
事先看来不一定是这个人的性格。
One was the person who dies, like the early Ivan Ilyich.
其中之一就是死去的人，比如早期的伊凡·伊里奇。
That is, they deny: everything's going to be fine until the end.
也就是说，他们否认：直到最后一切都会好起来。
They don't really let in the reality that part of them know, and they pass away without--and everybody says, 'Oh, they were so positive even to the end,' but there's a certain falseness to their positivity that you feel.
他们并没有真正让他们的一部分知道的现实，他们去世时没有——每个人都说，“哦，他们甚至到最后都很积极”，但你感觉他们的积极性有一定的虚假性。
The second are people who confront the fact that they're dying and are crushed by it.
第二种是那些面对自己即将死去的事实并被其压垮的人。
And I have seen that more than once.
我不止一次看到过这种情况。
And, they're crushed for all sorts of different reasons, but we'll get back to that, I suppose, when we get back to the actual book because I have something to say about why that is.
而且，它们因各种不同的原因而被压垮，但我想，当我们回到真正的书时，我们会回到这个话题，因为我有话要说为什么会这样。
And then the third, which are rare and beautiful, are the people who know, and confront, and accept it and die, in a way, like Ivan Ilyich does at the very end.
第三种是罕见而美丽的，是那些了解、面对、接受并死亡的人，在某种程度上，就像伊凡·伊里奇在最后所做的那样。
I remember one person in particular who was a doctor who I think probably administered something to himself or had it administered to him, because the last time I visited him in the hospital, he said, 'Rabbi, it has been a great pleasure knowing you.
我特别记得一个人，他是一名医生，我认为他可能给自己服用了某种药物，或者别人给他服用了某种药物，因为上次我去医院探望他时，他说：‘拉比，很高兴认识你。
I will not be seeing you again.' And, he said it very calmly, and the next day he was dead.
我不会再见到你了。而且，他说得很平静，第二天他就死了。
So, there are such people who really--they know what's coming, and they accept it.
所以，有些人真的知道即将发生什么，并且接受它。
But, at least, in this case with Ivan Ilyich, part of his pain is he realizes he hasn't lived his life; and I think that that's very hard.
但至少，在伊万·伊里奇的例子中，他的部分痛苦是他意识到自己没有过自己的生活；我认为这非常困难。
But, the other piece of this is, if you're going to read--people were making suggestions online about what we should see, one of the Kurosawa movies or so on--if you read the incredible, I think, and unbelievably insightful book, Denial of Death, by Ernest Becker, he feels that basically Freud was wrong: that the basic drive is not sex.
但是，另一件事是，如果你要读——人们在网上就我们应该看什么提出建议，黑泽明的电影之一等等——如果你读了欧内斯特·贝克尔写的那本令人难以置信的、我认为、具有令人难以置信的洞察力的书《否认死亡》，他觉得弗洛伊德基本上是错的：基本的驱动力不是性。
That sex is an aspect of our denial of death, and everything that is bodily reminds us of our mortality.
性是我们否认死亡的一个方面，而身体上的一切都让我们想起我们的死亡。
It's like, why does everything other than tears that comes out of you seem either faintly or very disgusting?
就像，为什么除了你流出来的眼泪之外，其他一切看起来要么微弱要么非常恶心？
Why should that be?
为什么会这样呢？
Because the things that too powerfully remind you of your body remind you that your body is what decays and dies.
因为那些过于强烈地提醒你你的身体的东西会提醒你，你的身体正在腐烂和死亡。
Like, the French call orgasm le petit mort --the little death.
比如，法国人把高潮称为“le petit mort”——小死亡。
Why?
为什么？
Because what reminds you more powerfully of your body than sex?
因为还有什么比性更能让你想起自己的身体呢？
And, sex and death are so tied.
而且，性和死亡是如此紧密相连。
And, the reason I bring all this up is because the section of Ivan Ilyich's confrontation with death starts with his remembering the syllogism that he learned from Aristotle--about, basically, that Caius is mortal: Caius is a man, all men are mortal, therefore Caius is mortal--and he never realized it applied to him.
而且，我之所以提出这一切，是因为伊凡·伊里奇面对死亡的部分是从他回忆起从亚里士多德那里学到的三段论开始的——基本上，凯厄斯是凡人：凯厄斯是一个人，所有人都是凡人，因此凯厄斯是凡人——而他从未意识到这适用于他。
Russ Roberts: It was about Caius .
拉斯·罗伯茨：是关于凯厄斯的。
Why would it--?
为什么会——？
Russ Roberts: Yeah, that's an incredible passage.
拉斯·罗伯茨：是的，这是一段令人难以置信的段落。
David Wolpe: It might be the most remarkable passage in the book, especially because the way he puts it is like Caius is an abstraction.
大卫·沃尔普：这可能是书中最引人注目的段落，特别是因为他的表达方式就像凯厄斯是一个抽象概念。
But then he writes, if I can--he was Vanya--he's talking about himself.
但后来他写道，如果可以的话——他是万尼亚——他正在谈论他自己。
'With Mama, with Papa, with Mitya and Volodya, with toys, the coachman, and Nanny, with all the joys in Greece and delights of childhood.
“和妈妈、爸爸、米蒂亚和沃洛佳一起，和玩具、车夫和保姆一起，还有希腊的所有欢乐和童年的快乐。
Was it for Caius, the smell of the striped leather ball that Vanya loved so much, who had kissed his mother's hand like that?
是为了凯厄斯，万尼亚如此喜爱的条纹皮球的味道，他那样亲吻了他母亲的手吗？
Was it for Caius, the silk folds of his mother's dress had rustled like that?' In other words, all the particulars, especially of his childhood, like, that's not supposed to be the person who dies--
是为了凯厄斯，他母亲衣服上的丝绸褶皱发出那样的沙沙声吗？换句话说，所有的细节，尤其是他童年的细节，比如，那不应该是那个死去的人——
David Wolpe: He's only beginning to realize that actually, death is real .
大卫·沃尔普：他才刚刚开始意识到，实际上，死亡是真实的。
He always knew it intellectually, but he's feeling it viscerally.
他在理智上一直都知道这一点，但他从内心深处感受到了这一点。
It's different.
这是不同的。
Russ Roberts: Yeah.
拉斯·罗伯茨：是的。
The expression memento mori --which is: you should remember that you're mortal--this book is an exercise in that.
“memento mori”这个表达方式——即：你应该记住你是凡人——这本书就是一个练习。
It forces you to confront the reality that you're not Caius either, not just Ivan.
它迫使你面对现实：你也不是凯厄斯，而不仅仅是伊万。
And, I'm curious: in your experience of having to confront death in those hospital rooms, a doctor has to confront--depending on what kind of doctor you are--you have to confront death and see it.
而且，我很好奇：在你必须在医院病房里面对死亡的经历中，医生必须面对——取决于你是什么样的医生——你必须面对死亡并看到它。
A rabbi is a little different because you're seeing somebody die who is not somebody who showed up in your emergency room--
拉比有点不同，因为你看到有人死去，但他不是出现在你急诊室的人——
Russ Roberts: They're somebody you might have known for a very, very long time.
拉斯·罗伯茨：他们可能是你认识很久很久的人了。
And, I'm curious, two things.
而且，我很好奇，有两件事。
If that changed you in any way that you can at least realize or talk about?
如果这以某种方式改变了你，你至少可以意识到或谈论？
And, whether you're glad that that was part of your life?
而且，你是否很高兴那是你生活的一部分？
A rabbi has a lot of challenges and lot of rewards.
拉比面临很多挑战，也有很多回报。
I'm curious whether being present in people's last moments, often surrounded by loved ones, I'm sure, is that a plus or a minus for you?
我很好奇，在人们的最后时刻，经常被亲人包围，这对你来说是优点还是缺点？
David Wolpe: So, I'll tell you what made it more powerful was I've had both a brain tumor--I had a seizure and a brain tumor--and then later I had lymphoma.
大卫·沃尔普：那么，我会告诉你，是什么让它变得更强大，因为我同时患有脑肿瘤——我有癫痫发作和脑肿瘤——后来我又患了淋巴瘤。
And, both times, after the operation for the brain tumor, the surgeon told me, 75% chance it was malignant.
而且，两次脑肿瘤手术后，外科医生都告诉我，75% 的可能性是恶性的。
Which is basically--it's basically a death sentence.
这基本上就是死刑。
It turned out not to be malignant.
结果证明不是恶性的。
For a long time, by the way, 'benign' was my favorite word in the English language.
顺便说一句，很长一段时间以来，“良性”是我最喜欢的英语单词。
David Wolpe: And, when I got lymphoma, the same thing.
大卫·沃尔普：当我患上淋巴瘤时，也是同样的情况。
I didn't know if that meant I was going to die.
我不知道这是否意味着我要死了。
And, both of those experiences taught me that thinking you're confronting death is different from actually confronting death.
而且，这两次经历都告诉我，认为自己正在面对死亡与真正面对死亡是不同的。
It's like your entire system goes into a different mode when you think--death is, after all, the end of everything that you know.
当你思考时，就像你的整个系统进入了一种不同的模式——毕竟，死亡是你所知道的一切的终结。
It's not just the end of you .
这不仅仅是你的终结。
I mean, it's the end of your loved ones and books, everything disappears.
我的意思是，这是你所爱的人和书籍的终结，一切都消失了。
Housman has a great poem about that.
豪斯曼有一首关于这一点的伟大诗。
It's:
它是：
Because when you die yourself, it's like the rest of the world disappears.
因为当你自己死去时，就像世界其他地方都消失了一样。
David Wolpe: And so, that prepared me much more to go into a room and to know what that person was experiencing and to feel the fullness of it.
大卫·沃尔普：所以，这让我做好了更多准备，可以进入一个房间，了解那个人正在经历什么，并感受其中的充实。
I have to say, before I had the experience myself, I kept a critical distance, almost in the way Ivan Ilyich does.
我不得不说，在我亲自经历之前，我保持着批判的距离，几乎就像伊万·伊里奇那样。
But, after those experiences, I know the terror and finality of genuinely confronting death.
但是，经历了这些之后，我知道了真正面对死亡的恐惧和结局。
And, even though I started off in academics and I was never going to go to a synagogue because I didn't want to do that sort of stuff, I think it immeasurably deepened my understanding of the human experience to both go through it and to share it with other people.
而且，尽管我从学术开始，我从来不会去犹太教堂，因为我不想做这类事情，但我认为经历它并与其他人分享它极大地加深了我对人类经验的理解。
And, by the way, for those of you out there who are rabbis, I can't recommend highly enough getting very sick and recovering.
顺便说一句，对于那些身为拉比的人来说，我强烈建议不要重病并康复。
Because it's really good for your rabbinic--yeah.
因为这对你的拉比确实有好处——是的。
And, that's, by the way, I mean, since when we're recording this, we're close to Yom Kippur, that's what Yom Kippur is supposed to do for you.
顺便说一句，我的意思是，因为当我们录制这段视频时，我们已经接近赎罪日了，这就是赎罪日应该为你做的事情。
It's supposed to confront you with your own mortality: Who will live and who will die?
它应该让你面对自己的死亡：谁会活，谁会死？
It's supposed to shock you into realizing whether you've lived or not.
它应该让你震惊，意识到你是否还活着。
It's, like, Ivan Ilyich is a Yom Kippur book.
就像《伊万·伊里奇》是一本关于赎罪日的书。
David Wolpe: So, yeah, I think sitting at the deathbed and talking to people who are going to die is an unparalleled way of learning about what life is.
大卫·沃尔普：所以，是的，我认为坐在临终前与即将死去的人交谈是了解生命是什么的一种无与伦比的方式。
Russ Roberts: Yeah.
拉斯·罗伯茨：是的。
I remember just recently in Jerusalem, and the sirens would go off, meaning there was a missile coming from, often, Iran; and my wife would hustle us down the stairs.
我记得最近在耶路撒冷，警报器会响起，这意味着有一枚导弹通常来自伊朗；我的妻子会把我们赶下楼梯。
We don't have our own shelter, so we'd go next door.
我们没有自己的庇护所，所以我们只能去隔壁。
And, I wasn't hurrying.
而且，我并不着急。
I'm older than my wife.
我比我妻子年长。
That's part of the reason; there's maybe a lot of reasons.
这是部分原因；也许有很多原因。
But, I struggled to hurry, and she would reprimand me afterwards, often during.
但是，我很难加快速度，她会在事后斥责我，经常是在过程中。
Reasonably, by the way; I'm not proud of it.
顺便说一句，这是合理的；我并不以此为荣。
Russ Roberts: But, at the time, my attitude was, 'Yeah, I'm 71-years-old, I've had a good life.
拉斯·罗伯茨：但是，当时我的态度是，‘是的，我已经 71 岁了，我过着美好的生活。
Maybe this will be the end, maybe, and that's okay.' Now, that's what I said to myself, but I have a feeling--and I know because occasionally there would be an especially loud boom when a missile either landed or was intercepted--most of the time intercepted--and I realized that some of that was just false bravado.
也许这就是结局，也许，那没关系。”现在，这就是我对自己说的，但我有一种感觉——我知道，因为当导弹着陆或被拦截时，偶尔会发出特别响亮的轰鸣声——大多数时候是被拦截——我意识到其中一些只是虚假的虚张声势。
David Wolpe: Yeah.
大卫·沃尔普：是的。
Unless the threat is not theoretical, unless it's really imminent, like a loud boom, you don't get that rush of adrenaline that tells you, the animalistic fight or flight that tells you how you really feel.
除非威胁不是理论上的，除非它确实迫在眉睫，比如一声巨响，否则你不会感受到肾上腺素的激增，也不会感受到动物般的战斗或逃跑，从而告诉你真正的感受。
The one analogy that I'll use is, like, I fly all the time.
我将使用的一个比喻是，我一直在飞行。
I'm on a plane a couple times a month, and I don't have any anxiety about flying at all.
我每个月要坐几次飞机，而且我对飞行一点也不担心。
I'll read, I'll eat, I'll sleep, whatever, on the plane.
我会在飞机上读书、吃饭、睡觉，等等。
But, let that plane start hitting turbulence--
但是，让那架飞机开始遭遇湍流——
David Wolpe: and all of a sudden, I realize underneath it, I do have anxiety about being 30,000 feet in the air.
David Wolpe：突然之间，我意识到在内心深处，我确实对在 30,000 英尺的高空感到焦虑。
Russ Roberts: In a metal tube that shouldn't be suspended in the air.
拉斯·罗伯茨：在不应该悬浮在空中的金属管中。
I know.
我知道。
Russ Roberts: My experience of that is a little turbulence is fine, and when it starts to intensify, I'm trying to will it to stop.
拉斯·罗伯茨：我的经验是，有一点动荡是很好的，当它开始加剧时，我试图让它停止。
I start by tightening my seatbelt, which reduces the sensory input, but it starts to get--the more it intensifies, the scarier it gets.
我首先勒紧安全带，这减少了感官输入，但它开始变得——它越强烈，就越可怕。
Yeah.
是的。
David Wolpe: And, I always remember, I don't remember which comedian said, 'That's why they call it terminals.'
大卫·沃尔普：而且，我一直记得，我不记得哪位喜剧演员说过，“这就是他们称之为终端的原因。”
Russ Roberts: But, you fly twice a month, so you can make that joke.
拉斯·罗伯茨：但是，你每个月飞两次，所以你可以开这个玩笑。
Russ Roberts: I want to talk about--let's talk about the ending of the book.
拉斯·罗伯茨：我想谈谈——让我们谈谈这本书的结局。
Not the literal ending, although we'll talk about that, too.
不是字面意义上的结局，尽管我们也会讨论这一点。
Russ Roberts: But, the last--it's the last--almost half of the book is his decline.
拉斯·罗伯茨：但是，这本书的最后——这是最后——几乎一半是他的衰落。
And, the only thing that gives him comfort is his interaction with his servant, whose name is Gerasim.
而且，唯一让他感到安慰的是他与仆人的互动，仆人的名字叫格拉西姆。
Russ Roberts: And, he gets comfort because Gerasim will often hold his legs up higher than he can hold them himself propped on a pillow.
拉斯·罗伯茨：而且，他得到了安慰，因为格拉西姆经常把他的腿举得比他自己靠在枕头上的高。
Which, we get the impression it doesn't actually reduce the pain, but it's a placebo effect.
我们的印象是它实际上并没有减轻疼痛，但它是一种安慰剂效应。
He gets this psychological benefit of having a connection with another human being--which his whole life has been devoid of.
他从与另一个人的联系中获得了这种心理上的好处——这是他一生都没有的。
And, there's this incredible passage--I'm not going to read the words here, the direct quote.
而且，有一段令人难以置信的段落——我不会读这里的文字，直接引用。
But, he, at one point when he's suffering, he has a desire to be held like a child.
但是，在他痛苦的时候，他却渴望像个孩子一样被人抱着。
To be comforted, wept over .
得到安慰，哭了。
He talks about he 'wishes someone was crying for him.' And, almost no one--there's some tears shed, but there's no sorrow.
他说他“希望有人为他哭泣。”而且，几乎没有人流泪，但没有悲伤。
There's just emotion.
只是有情感。
Russ Roberts: And, he wants to be loved.
拉斯·罗伯茨：而且，他想要被爱。
And, you have the realization he's never been loved as an adult.
而且，你会意识到他成年后从未被爱过。
This hunger for human contact, for kindness, but really just for any kind of connection is what the reader, I think, feels is what explains his comfort from this bizarre interaction with his servant, who is portrayed as a country bumpkin, as some kind of almost a simpleton, but clearly someone with a good heart.
我认为，这种对人际交往、对善意，但实际上只是对任何形式的联系的渴望，正是读者所感受到的，这解释了他与仆人的奇怪互动所带来的安慰，仆人被描绘成一个乡巴佬，几乎是一个傻瓜，但显然是一个心地善良的人。
Russ Roberts: Who, when giving comfort or serving Ivan, he does it with a smile.
拉斯·罗伯茨：当他安慰或服务伊万时，他总是面带微笑。
He does it without condescension, he does it without lying.
他这样做时没有居高临下，他没有撒谎。
He's in many ways the only admirable person in the entire book, actually, now that I think about it.
事实上，现在我想起来，他在很多方面都是整本书中唯一令人钦佩的人。
David Wolpe: Yeah.
大卫·沃尔普：是的。
So, Tolstoy did idealize the peasants--
所以，托尔斯泰确实把农民理想化了——
David Wolpe: in a certain way, and had that influence in his time even in Israel.
大卫·沃尔普（David Wolpe）：以某种方式，在他那个时代甚至在以色列都有影响力。
A.D.
公元
Gordon was a devotee of Tolstoy, working the land and being a peasant, and so on.
戈登是托尔斯泰的追随者，在土地上劳作，当过农民，等等。
And, I think he presents Gerasim as the only person that actually understands what's going on.
而且，我认为他将格拉西姆描述为唯一真正了解正在发生的事情的人。
Russ Roberts: Correct--who is not a liar, who is honest.
拉斯·罗伯茨：正确——谁不是骗子，谁是诚实的。
David Wolpe: Yes, he's not a liar.
大卫·沃尔普：是的，他不是骗子。
He knows that Ivan Ilyich is dying.
他知道伊凡·伊里奇快要死了。
And Ivan Ilyich, he finds comfort in the fact that the guy is telling the truth that he's dying.
而伊万·伊里奇（Ivan Ilyich）则感到安慰，因为这个人说出了他快要死的真相。
And also, that he will physically touch him, and hold him, and lift his legs.
而且，他会身体接触他，抱住他，抬起他的腿。
And, I think the implication is that he cleans him, bodily.
而且，我认为这意味着他清洁了他的身体。
David Wolpe: So, that is being taken care of, like you're taken care of when you're a baby.
大卫·沃尔普：所以，这就是得到照顾，就像你还是个婴儿时受到照顾一样。
I mean, you imagine when you wipe a baby's bottom, you lift their legs.
我的意思是，你想象一下，当你擦拭婴儿的屁股时，你抬起了他们的腿。
That's what you do.
这就是你要做的。
David Wolpe: So, I think that he allows himself, maybe because Gerasim is a peasant, he allows himself to be taken care of by someone who he doesn't have to feel shame in front of.
David Wolpe：所以，我认为他允许自己，也许因为Gerasim是一个农民，他允许自己被一个他不必在面前感到羞耻的人照顾。
And, Gerasim's attitude is, 'Look, it's going to happen to all of us someday, so why shouldn't I take care of you?
而且，格拉西姆的态度是，‘看，有一天这会发生在我们所有人身上，所以我为什么不应该照顾你呢？
I hope somebody will take care of me.' And, it--it's incredibly helpful.
我希望有人能照顾我。而且，它非常有帮助。
And, I think I have also seen this : a lot of people, obviously, whom I know who are old and sick have caretakers, and many of them have basically the same attitude.
而且，我想我也看到了这一点：显然，我认识的很多年老体弱的人都有看护者，他们中的许多人基本上都有相同的态度。
Which is, this is not--it's not disgusting work or shameful work.
也就是说，这不是——这不是令人厌恶的工作或可耻的工作。
It's sacred, and beautiful, and, 'I'm taking care of this human being who is dying, and I know that.' So, we should all be so lucky.
它是神圣的、美丽的，而且，“我正在照顾这个垂死的人，我知道这一点。”所以，我们都应该如此幸运。
Russ Roberts: Yeah, it reminds me of another aspect of Jewish law, which is the taking care of a person after their death.
拉斯·罗伯茨：是的，这让我想起了犹太法律的另一个方面，那就是在人死后对其进行照顾。
And, everything that you do for a person who has passed away--washing their body, accompanying them, keeping watch over them before the funeral, accompanying the body on the way to the funeral--this is called chesed shel emet , the kindness of truth.
而且，你为去世的人所做的一切——清洗他们的尸体、陪伴他们、在葬礼前看守他们、在去葬礼的路上陪伴尸体——这被称为“chesed shel emet”，即真理的仁慈。
Or I would translate it as sincere kindness, because it can't be repaid.
或者我会把它翻译成真诚的善意，因为它是无法回报的。
Russ Roberts: The person is gone.
拉斯·罗伯茨：那个人已经走了。
The figure of Gerasim doing these bodily care and just tending to Ivan is--part of the reason he's saintly , is for that reason.
格拉西姆做这些身体护理并照顾伊万的形象是他圣洁的部分原因，就是这个原因。
I'm not going to go into it, but you can read--the Christian version of this is a Flaubert short story.
我不打算深究，但你可以读一下——基督教版本是福楼拜的短篇小说。
It's a wonderful story called "Saint-Julian the Hospitaller." And it's about a man who has done something terrible in his youth, and his desperate attempts in his life to redeem himself.
这是一个精彩的故事，名叫“医院骑士圣朱利安”。这是关于一个年轻时做了可怕事情的男人，以及他在一生中绝望地试图救赎自己的故事。
And it ultimately ends with him taking care of someone in this very--in a way that we as the outsiders find difficult to observe because of the, as you say, the disgust we often feel for the body and its messiness.
最终他以这种方式照顾某人——以一种我们作为局外人很难观察到的方式结束，因为正如你所说，我们经常对身体及其混乱感到厌恶。
Anyway.
反正。
David Wolpe: Yes.
大卫·沃尔普：是的。
So, finally, we come to the revelation that is forced by pain and the imminence of death.
所以，最后，我们来到了痛苦和死亡迫近所迫使的启示。
I mean, in a way, it's really working up to this moment that he has to be--the only thing that will strip away the falsity of his life is the genuine confrontation with his own mortality; and I don't think he would have gotten there without the pain, and the disability, and so on, that forced him to recognize this is really death.
我的意思是，在某种程度上，直到现在他都在努力——唯一能消除他生活的虚假性的就是真正地面对他自己的死亡；唯一能消除他生活的虚假性的就是真正面对自己的死亡；我认为如果没有痛苦、残疾等迫使他认识到这真的是死亡，他就不会到达那里。
If somebody had said to him, for example, 'Oh, you have a heart condition, you could drop dead at any moment,' I don't think we would have gotten the book that we did.
例如，如果有人对他说，“哦，你有心脏病，你随时都可能死去”，我认为我们不会得到我们所做的这本书。
It is the suffering--and I've seen this, too--suffering, and sometimes age and its disabilities, really bring people to recognize, 'Oh, I'm actually going to die.' Because, it strips away the denial of health to start with.
正是这种痛苦——我也见过这种——痛苦，有时是年龄及其残疾，真正让人们认识到，“哦，我实际上要死了。”因为，它从一开始就消除了对健康的否认。
It's, like, when you're young, your health is something that you think will never go away, and the gradual disabling of the body as you get older makes you realize, 'Oh, if this can happen, then maybe death could really happen.'
就像，当你年轻的时候，你的健康是你认为永远不会消失的东西，而随着年龄的增长，身体的逐渐残疾让你意识到，“哦，如果这能发生，那么也许死亡真的会发生。”
Russ Roberts: Yeah.
拉斯·罗伯茨：是的。
Before we get to the very ending, I want to give one more example of his failure to confront himself.
在我们讲到最后之前，我想再举一个他未能面对自己的例子。
His lack of self-awareness really runs through the book until the very, very end.
他缺乏自我意识确实贯穿了整本书，直到最后。
I think he's talking about the doctors, and he thinks, he doesn't say it out loud--I don't think he says it out loud, I think it's in his head, yeah--'Will you really never feel ashamed for lying to my face?'
我认为他正在谈论医生，他想，他没有大声说出来——我不认为他大声说出来，我认为这是在他的脑海里，是的——“你真的不会因为当面撒谎而感到羞耻吗？”
Russ Roberts: It's Tolstoy telling us what Ivan is thinking, but it's also Tolstoy telling us what he's thinking.
拉斯·罗伯茨：托尔斯泰告诉我们伊万在想什么，同时也是托尔斯泰告诉我们他在想什么。
Russ Roberts: Which is, this man has lied his whole life to people's faces about what he feels, what he's doing to them in his role as a judge, and he can't recognize it in himself.
拉斯·罗伯茨：也就是说，这个人一生都在当着人们的面撒谎，告诉人们他的感受，以及他作为法官对他们所做的事情，而他自己却无法意识到这一点。
He can see it in others.
他可以在别人身上看到这一点。
It's a beautiful example of the power of third person narration that we get to see--in this case, he flips it to first person because we hear the thought in his head.
这是我们看到的第三人称叙述力量的一个美丽例子——在这种情况下，他把它翻转到第一人称，因为我们听到了他脑子里的想法。
But, what he's telling us is he doesn't really get it.
但是，他告诉我们的是他并不真正明白。
David Wolpe: Yes.
大卫·沃尔普：是的。
It's true, yeah.
这是真的，是的。
I mean, the distance that one has from one's self, it often comes out in the way in which you accuse other people of doing what you do.
我的意思是，一个人与自己之间的距离，往往会通过你指责别人做你所做的事情来表现出来。
David Wolpe: I mean, we know this.
大卫·沃尔普：我的意思是，我们知道这一点。
This is an old psychological trope, that the Hasidic Rabbi said that you should see other people as a mirror.
这是一个古老的心理比喻，哈西德拉比说你应该将其他人视为一面镜子。
And here, he has spent his whole life not really telling the truth, but acting as the carrier of the common assumptions of the world.
而在这里，他一生都没有真正说出真相，而是充当世界共同假设的载体。
David Wolpe: And, the only thing that breaks the common assumptions of the world is that you are highly individual when you're dying.
大卫·沃尔普：而且，唯一打破世界普遍假设的是，当你临终时，你是高度个体化的。
Not everybody is dying, only you are dying, and that's one of the things that he realizes.
不是每个人都会死，只有你会死，这是他意识到的事情之一。
It's that whatever the people around him say or feel, or whatever, you're dying alone.
不管他周围的人怎么说、怎么想，或者其他什么，你都在孤独地死去。
It's just you.
这只是你。
And, that's also a jarring, even if you know it intellectually, when it actually happens.
而且，即使你理智上知道，当它真正发生时，这也是一种不和谐的感觉。
We always say, 'You're born alone, you die alone,' but that doesn't actually--
我们总是说，“你孤独地出生，你孤独地死去”，但事实并非如此——
David Wolpe: Yes.
大卫·沃尔普：是的。
Then you feel that you're actually dying alone.
然后你会觉得自己实际上是在孤独地死去。
Yeah, it's very powerful.
是的，它非常强大。
Russ Roberts: And the--I was going to say I've never died, but I have lost people close to me.
拉斯·罗伯茨：我本来想说我从未死过，但我失去了亲近的人。
Russ Roberts: And, you have a similar out-of-body experience, which is your parent, your father, your mother dies.
拉斯·罗伯茨：而且，你也有类似的灵魂出窍的经历，那就是你的父母、你的父亲、你的母亲去世了。
In my case, I've lost both of them now.
就我而言，我现在已经失去了他们两个。
And, your world is shattered, rocked.
而且，你的世界已经支离破碎、摇摇欲坠。
Everything in front of you that you're seeing is unreal, surreal.
你眼前所见的一切都是不真实的、超现实的。
And, these other people who didn't lose their father--
还有，其他那些没有失去父亲的人——
Russ Roberts: seem to be going through their life as if nothing had happened.
拉斯·罗伯茨：他们的一生似乎什么也没发生过。
Russ Roberts: But, my father died.
拉斯·罗伯茨：但是，我父亲去世了。
How can you be so--not callous--just insensitive?
你怎么能如此——不是冷酷无情——只是麻木不仁？
Russ Roberts: And, just to go about your normal business?
拉斯·罗伯茨：那么，只是为了处理你的正常事务吗？
And, of course, what we want desperately who have suffered a loss is to go about our business like that.
当然，我们迫切希望那些遭受损失的人能够像这样继续我们的事业。
Russ Roberts: We're not allowed to.
拉斯·罗伯茨：我们不被允许这样做。
Our emotions don't allow it.
我们的情绪不允许。
In the case of Jewish law, we have a whole set of strictures that stop us from having a normal life for at least 11 months.
就犹太法律而言，我们有一整套的限制，使我们在至少 11 个月内无法过上正常的生活。
In the case of a parent, we have to say the Mourner's Kaddish for our parents.
如果是父母，我们必须为我们的父母念哀悼者卡迪什。
And so, we're forced, in the case of Jewish law, to not revert to the normal life.
因此，就犹太法律而言，我们被迫不能恢复正常生活。
Russ Roberts: But, we desperately want it because we know what it's like, we had it before.
拉斯·罗伯茨：但是，我们非常想要它，因为我们知道它是什么样的，我们以前拥有过它。
Russ Roberts: And, we've watched these insensitive people somehow; and you walk by them, and you want to shake them.
拉斯·罗伯茨：而且，我们以某种方式观察了这些麻木不仁的人；当你走过它们时，你想要摇晃它们。
Russ Roberts: You want to grab them and say, 'Don't you realize I've lost my father?' And, you know that--
拉斯·罗伯茨：你想抓住他们并说，“你没有意识到我失去了我的父亲吗？”而且，你知道——
David Wolpe: I was going to say, the Talmud has a great phrase in a different context for that, ha-olam kayam: al hadin , the world just goes on its way.
大卫·沃尔普：我想说的是，《塔木德》在不同的背景下有一个很棒的短语，ha-olam kayam：al hadin，世界只是继续前进。
David Wolpe: It's like it's indifferent to your--one of the ways rabbis come up against this is when we're planning a funeral, I have to say to the family, like: Your speech can't be too long because people there, they're taking time out of their normal day to go to this funeral.
大卫·沃尔普：这就像对你漠不关心——拉比们遇到这种情况的方式之一是当我们计划葬礼时，我必须对家人说，比如：你的演讲不能太长，因为那里的人们，他们从正常的日子里抽出时间来参加这个葬礼。
You don't want them looking at their watches saying, 'When do I get back to?'
您不希望他们看着手表说：“我什么时候回来？”
David Wolpe: And, I can see--like, it's jarring because they're feeling like, 'This is the worst thing that has ever happened to me, and I have to worry that they need to get back to work?'
大卫·沃尔普：而且，我可以看到，这很令人不安，因为他们感觉，“这是我经历过的最糟糕的事情，我不得不担心他们需要回去工作吗？”
Russ Roberts: Right.
拉斯·罗伯茨：对。
'I need to process this, I need to get this out of my system.'
“我需要处理这个问题，我需要将其从我的系统中清除。”
Russ Roberts: 'And, you're telling me I've got to take their situation into account?'
拉斯·罗伯茨：“而且，你是说我必须考虑他们的情况？”
David Wolpe: Into account, which is very, very hard.
David Wolpe：考虑到这一点，这非常非常困难。
By the time this comes out, it will have already been published because it'll be published later this week, but I just wrote an article for The Free Press about the Unetanah Tokef , the prayer that says who shall live and who shall die?
当这篇文章出版时，它已经出版了，因为它将在本周晚些时候出版，但我刚刚为《自由报》写了一篇关于 Unetanah Tokef 的文章，这是一个祈祷，说谁将生，谁将死？
And a poem by a woman named Charlotte Delbo, who was in the French resistance.
还有一首诗，作者是一位名叫夏洛特·德尔博（Charlotte Delbo）的女性，她是法国抵抗运动的成员。
And, she writes this, basically--I won't give you the poem; it's about eight or nine lines.
而且，她基本上是这样写的——我不会给你这首诗；大约有八九行。
But she says: 'I saw so much death and so many people died, so you have to do something with your life.' Like, 'Learn a dance step,' she says.
但她说：“我看到了这么多的死亡，这么多的人死去，所以你必须为你的生活做点什么。”就像，“学习舞步，”她说。
Like, something .
就像，某事。
And, I think that that's part of what Tolstoy wants the reader to get from the book, is this will happen to you, and you don't want to come to this moment of death thinking, 'I actually just skimmed the surface of life, and I never felt anything real.' And, that's the recognition that he comes to, which is so painful.
而且，我认为这就是托尔斯泰希望读者从书中得到的一部分，那就是这会发生在你身上，而你不想在死亡的这一刻思考，“我实际上只是掠过生命的表面，我从未感受到任何真实的东西。”而且，这就是他所认识到的，这是非常痛苦的。
And, also, the recognition that you mentioned, which is that no one else will be in the situation that you're in, and that also is just unfathomable.
而且，还有你提到的认识，那就是没有其他人会处于你所处的境地，这也是不可思议的。
And, death itself is unfathomable, which is why people will say, 'Oh, I just spoke to him yesterday.'
而且，死亡本身是深不可测的，这就是为什么人们会说，“哦，我昨天才和他说话。”
David Wolpe: As though people who speak yesterday don't die today, but they do.
大卫·沃尔普：好像昨天说话的人今天没有死，但他们确实死了。
Russ Roberts: Every day, every day, every day.
拉斯·罗伯茨：每一天，每一天，每一天。
Russ Roberts: Yeah.
拉斯·罗伯茨：是的。
And, I have to mention one of my favorite lines, which is, 'No one on their deathbed ever wished they had spent more time at the office.' And, of course, this is what happens to Ivan Ilyich.
而且，我必须提到我最喜欢的一句话，那就是，“临终时没有人希望自己在办公室花更多时间。”当然，这就是发生在伊万·伊里奇身上的事情。
Russ Roberts: I want to read--he's close to death at this point in the story, and here's what Tolstoy says.
拉斯·罗伯茨：我想读——在故事的这一点上，他已经快要死了，这是托尔斯泰所说的。
And, I think this is--I mean, it's heartbreaking.
而且，我认为这——我的意思是，这令人心碎。
Close quote.
关闭报价。
So, Ivan, he's followed all the rules--
所以，伊万，他遵守了所有规则——
Russ Roberts: He's risen in the ranks.
拉斯·罗伯茨：他的地位上升了。
He's taken care of his family--whether he's nice to them or not, it's not really relevant.
他照顾了他的家人——不管他对他们好不好，这并不重要。
He likes to play bridge, by the way: he enjoys it.
顺便说一句，他喜欢打桥牌：他很享受。
That's his highest pleasure, is to play bridge.
他最大的乐趣就是打桥牌。
Which is, again, I have nothing against bridge or the companionship of four people playing bridge.
再说一遍，我并不反对桥牌或四个人玩桥牌的陪伴。
But, Tolstoy evidently doesn't think much of it; I think we can say that.
但是，托尔斯泰显然并没有想太多。我想我们可以这么说。
But, he's done everything, quote, "correctly." So, he can't figure out why he is bereft at the end of his life.
但是，用他的话来说，他所做的一切都是“正确的”。所以，他无法弄清楚为什么他在生命的尽头会失去亲人。
It's impossible.
这是不可能的。
He has done great.
他做得很好。
He's led an exemplary life.
他的生活堪称典范。
But it's only exemplary by the standards of his superficial society that he's chosen to join and be partners with.
但从他选择加入并成为合作伙伴的肤浅社会的标准来看，这只是典范。
So, this idea--and I'm reminded of the ending of Mary Oliver's poem "The Summer Day": 'Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?' And, Ivan Ilyich has made a choice.
所以，这个想法让我想起了玛丽·奥利弗的诗《夏日》的结尾：“告诉我，你打算用你狂野而宝贵的生命做什么？”而且，伊凡·伊里奇已经做出了选择。
And he made the wrong choice in Tolstoy's view.
而在托尔斯泰看来，他做出了错误的选择。
David Wolpe: It's a great--it's exactly right.
David Wolpe：这太棒了——完全正确。
And, he says, like, 'I can't believe that I didn't really live it.' And, it's only at the very end that he starts to accept--after those three days of howling that you mentioned earlier--that he comes in some way to the other side, and there is an acceptance and even a joy in that moment.
而且，他说，“我不敢相信我没有真正经历过。”而且，直到最后，他才开始接受——在你之前提到的那三天的嚎叫之后——他以某种方式来到了另一边，在那一刻有一种接受，甚至是一种喜悦。
But, I think maybe one of the ways of understanding this is that--you know, I once, I think just after I graduated from rabbinical school, I was invited to speak at an AA [Alcoholics Anonymous] meeting.
但是，我想也许理解这一点的方法之一是——你知道，我有一次，我想就在我从拉比学校毕业后，我被邀请在 AA [戒酒互诫协会] 会议上发言。
I had never gone to an AA meeting, and they said, 'You'll give a little opening.' It was a Jewish Alcoholics Anonymous meeting.
我从来没有参加过 AA 会议，他们说，‘你给我一点机会。’这是一次犹太戒酒互诫协会的会议。
Russ Roberts: This is Alcoholics Anonymous, yeah.
拉斯·罗伯茨：是的，这是戒酒互诫协会。
David Wolpe: Alcoholics Anonymous.
大卫·沃尔普：戒酒互诫协会。
They said, 'You'll give a little opening talk, and then you will shut up, and you will listen to what goes on there.'
他们说，“你会做一些开场白，然后你就闭嘴，听听那里发生了什么。”
And, I did, and I listened to what went on there.
我确实这么做了，并且听了那里发生的事情。
And one person said--and this was 30-some years ago--one person said, 'I started drinking when I was 18, and I stopped when I was 35, and at 35, I had the maturity of an 18-year-old because in between, I had felt no pain.' And, I think that that's part of what Tolstoy is saying about Ivan Ilyich.
一个人说——这是 30 多年前——一个人说，“我 18 岁时开始喝酒，35 岁时停止喝酒，35 岁时，我有了 18 岁的成熟，因为在这期间，我感觉不到任何痛苦。”而且，我认为这就是托尔斯泰对伊凡·伊里奇的评价的一部分。
It isn't until he genuinely feels pain--that he doesn't skate through life but he feels the pain of life with those three day of howling--that he can get to the other side.
直到他真正感受到痛苦——他不是滑过一生，而是通过那三天的嚎叫感受到生命的痛苦——他才能到达彼岸。
Because if you always anesthetize yourself, whether if not through drink then through--
因为如果你总是麻醉自己，无论不是通过喝酒还是通过——
David Wolpe: pleasantries and surface, and so on--
David Wolpe：寒暄和表面，等等——
Russ Roberts: Greed, ambition, whatever.
拉斯·罗伯茨：贪婪、野心等等。
Yeah.
是的。
David Wolpe: You don't see the pain of life.
大卫·沃尔普：你看不到生活的痛苦。
And, by the way, I think that that's part of the glory and difficulty of Israeli society, is: it's very, very, very hard to anesthetize yourself if you live in Israel.
顺便说一句，我认为这是以色列社会的荣耀和困难的一部分，那就是：如果你生活在以色列，要麻醉自己是非常、非常、非常困难的。
It is much, much easier to anesthetize yourself if you live in America.
如果你住在美国，麻醉自己会容易得多。
Russ Roberts: Yeah.
拉斯·罗伯茨：是的。
This episode hasn't aired yet, but it will by the time ours--this one's released--a conversation I had with Meghan O'Gieblyn.
这一集还没有播出，但当我们的这一集发布时，我和梅根·奥吉布林的对话就会播出。
And, in that conversation, I mentioned, as I often have on the program, that there are four ways to grow up and become a little more self-aware that you're not the center of the universe: religion, therapy, meditation, reading literature, great books.
而且，在那次谈话中，我提到，正如我在节目中经常提到的那样，有四种方法可以让你成长并变得更加自我意识，你不是宇宙的中心：宗教、治疗、冥想、阅读文学、伟大的书籍。
And, I told her that, and her answer was, her response was, 'And, suffering.' She's something of a religious--her religious journey is complicated, but she has been a Christian.
我告诉她，她的回答是，“而且，痛苦。”她是个虔诚的教徒——她的宗教历程很复杂，但她一直是一名基督徒。
I don't know what she is now.
我不知道她现在怎么样了。
I'm not sure what she'd say she is now.
我不确定她现在会说什么。
Russ Roberts: But, suffering--and we've had a number of episodes about this, with Paul Bloom, for example--suffering, as long as you don't die heightens--well, it does all kinds of things.
拉斯·罗伯茨：但是，苦难——我们已经有很多关于这个的情节，例如保罗·布鲁姆——只要你不死，苦难就会加剧——嗯，它会产生各种各样的作用。
I was going to mention this earlier, this documentary of World War I veterans saying, 'I wouldn't have missed it for the world.' It was horrible, they saw horrible things.
我本来想早些时候提到这一点，这部关于第一次世界大战退伍军人的纪录片说，“我绝对不会错过它。”这太可怕了，他们看到了可怕的事情。
They've lost feet because of infection and suffered pain.
他们因感染而失去双脚并遭受痛苦。
And, of course, that's true as long as you don't get killed.
当然，只要你不被杀，那就是真的。
Russ Roberts: It heightens your sense of life.
拉斯·罗伯茨：它增强了你的生活感。
And Israel, paradoxically, has a very high measured happiness level, despite all the challenges of living here, and war, and terrorism, and so on.
矛盾的是，尽管生活在这里面临着战争、恐怖主义等各种挑战，但以色列的幸福水平却非常高。
And, some have speculated it's because it heightens your--as long as you don't die--your--life is a lot more vivid here.
而且，有些人推测这是因为它会让你的——只要你不死——在这里的生活更加生动。
Russ Roberts: It's a lot more intense.
拉斯·罗伯茨：这要激烈得多。
People will often say to me, 'Well, when you moved to Israel five years ago, you didn't expect to go through this ,' meaning the war and so on.
人们经常对我说，‘好吧，当你五年前搬到以色列时，你没想到会经历这些’，意思是战争等等。
And, I always say--unfortunately, it's weird, it's like the World War I veteran--I literally say, 'I wouldn't have missed it for the world.'
而且，我总是说——不幸的是，这很奇怪，就像第一次世界大战的老兵一样——我真的说，“我绝对不会错过它。”
Russ Roberts: I'm glad I'm here.
拉斯·罗伯茨：我很高兴我来到这里。
And, when I go to the United States or other places, I'm struck by how calm and pleasant things are, to use a Tolstoyan word, in my translation at least.
而且，当我去美国或其他地方时，我对那里的平静和愉快感到震惊，用托尔斯泰的话说，至少在我的翻译中是这样。
Russ Roberts: I, by the way, read the translation--this is a lovely little book called Lives and Deaths: Essential Stories .
拉斯·罗伯茨：顺便说一句，我读了翻译——这是一本可爱的小书，名叫《生与死：基本故事》。
It's Pushkin Press, and it's translated from the Russian by Boris Drayluk.
这是普希金出版社，由鲍里斯·德雷鲁克 (Boris Drayluk) 从俄语翻译而来。
It has a wonderful story in it called "Pacesetter: The Story of a Horse" that's a masterpiece.
里面有一个精彩的故事，叫《标兵：一匹马的故事》，是一部杰作。
And, I should reference the other episode we did on a Tolstoy short story, which was "Master and Man," which also romanticizes the peasant as the real hero, but it's an incredible masterpiece.
而且，我应该参考我们在托尔斯泰短篇小说中所做的另一集，即“主人与人”，它也将农民浪漫化为真正的英雄，但它是一部令人难以置信的杰作。
We'll have links to all those, and we'll link to your story, to your essay when it comes out.
我们将提供所有这些内容的链接，并且当您的故事和论文发表时，我们将链接到您的故事和文章。
Russ Roberts: I want to make a claim about the ending, but I want you to give me your understanding first.
拉斯·罗伯茨：我想对结局做出一个声明，但我希望你先给我你的理解。
First, I want to read another quote.
首先，我想读另一句话。
It says, again, we're very near the end of the book,
它再次表明，我们已经接近这本书的结尾了，
End of quote.
报价结束。
And, that's a variation on the earlier statement that he may not have lived as he ought to have lived.
而且，这与之前的说法不同，即他可能没有按照他应该的方式生活。
Russ Roberts: And, of course, here at Shalem College, we spend a lot of time talking about how one should live.
拉斯·罗伯茨：当然，在沙勒姆学院，我们花了很多时间讨论一个人应该如何生活。
Any serious human being, I believe, should confront that question, and Tolstoy was obsessed with it.
我相信，任何严肃的人都应该面对这个问题，而托尔斯泰对此很着迷。
Obviously, many of his fictions, his fictions and his nonfiction: How should a person live?
显然，他的许多小说，他的小说和他的非小说：一个人应该如何生活？
And, I think we get, in my view, it's not obviously correct, but I think he gives an answer to that question in the ending, but first I want to hear your interpretation.
而且，我认为，在我看来，这显然不正确，但我认为他在结尾给出了这个问题的答案，但首先我想听听你的解释。
How do you understand the ending?
你怎么理解结局？
The ending is a bit ambiguous.
结局有点暧昧。
David Wolpe: [SPOILER ALERT} Right.
大卫·沃尔普：[剧透警告}对。
Before I get to the ending, I just want to make one connection to something that most people will know.
在讲到结局之前，我只想与大多数人都知道的事情建立联系。
He says, "In childhood, there'd been something really pleasant which one could live with if it came back." He has these reversions to childhood towards the very end, and what it reminded me of was Rosebud.
他说：“在童年时期，有一些非常令人愉快的东西，如果它回来了，人们就可以忍受它。”他在最后的时候有这些回归童年的感觉，这让我想起了玫瑰花蕾。
Like in Citizen Kane, or Rosebud in my book.
就像《公民凯恩》中的那样，或者我书中的《玫瑰花蕾》。
It's like when in that famous movie--and now I've ruined it for you if you've never seen it--but the one thing--
就像在那部著名的电影中一样——如果你从来没有看过的话，现在我已经为你毁了它——但有一件事——
Russ Roberts: Spoiler.
拉斯·罗伯茨：剧透。
You can stop listening now if you're very worried about this.
如果您对此非常担心，现在可以停止收听。
Go ahead.
前进。
David Wolpe: That's right.
大卫·沃尔普：没错。
The one thing that he remembers is the sled of his childhood because things were innocent, and pure, and just joyous then.
他记得的一件事就是童年的雪橇，因为那时的一切都是天真、纯洁、快乐的。
And, the reason I bring that up in part is because I think that the very ending is kind of a reversion to the purity of childhood.
而且，我提出这一点的部分原因是因为我认为结局本身就是对童年纯洁性的回归。
David Wolpe: It's like he lets go of all the pretense, and all the dross, and all the need to perform, and he gets to just be himself.
大卫·沃尔普：就好像他放弃了所有的伪装、所有的糟粕以及所有表演的需要，他开始做自己。
There is a stripping away that the agony of those three days of howling does, and you're just--you don't have, in a way, the energy to pretend to be that which you're not.
那三天的嚎叫带来的痛苦会剥夺你的权利，而你只是——在某种程度上，你没有精力假装自己不是你。
And, also, I think for Tolstoy, there is, although it's never explicit, there is a sort of divine embrace because his last words are, 'What a joy.'
而且，我认为对于托尔斯泰来说，虽然从来没有明确表达过，但有一种神圣的拥抱，因为他的最后一句话是：“多么快乐啊。”
Russ Roberts: Yeah, I agree with all that.
拉斯·罗伯茨：是的，我同意所有这些。
But, I'm going to put forward a different, an extra theme.
但是，我将提出一个不同的、额外的主题。
Russ Roberts: I think he redeems himself at his death--in his mind, whether he does before any kind of judgment is a different question--but I think Tolstoy sees him as redeemed, at least.
拉斯·罗伯茨：我认为他在死时救赎了自己——在他看来，在任何类型的判断之前他是否这样做是一个不同的问题——但我认为托尔斯泰至少认为他得到了救赎。
And the reason that happens is that he lets go.
发生这种情况的原因是他放手了。
And, he's looking at these people around him, as he's been doing now in his dying months and weeks, and now days, and he sees how--he hates them.
而且，他看着他周围的这些人，就像他在临终前的几个月、几周以及现在的日子里所做的那样，他看到了——他多么恨他们。
He says explicitly, Tolstoy says explicitly many times that he hates his wife, he hates his children.
他明确地说，托尔斯泰多次明确地说，他讨厌他的妻子，他讨厌他的孩子。
He really hates that his wife is healthy, and plump, and fleshy.
他真的很讨厌自己的妻子健康、丰满、有肉。
It's really powerful writing.
真是写得很有力量。
But, at the very, very end, he sees that they're upset that he's dying.
但是，在最后一刻，他看到他们对他的死感到不安。
And, in my reading of the ending, he embraces death as a kindness to the people in his life.
而且，在我读到的结局中，他将死亡视为对他生命中的人的善意。
He sees that they can't handle his dying, so he says goodbye.
他看到他们无法接受他的死亡，所以他告别了。
I mean, I could try to look at the text and see if I could find a little more evidence for that claim.
我的意思是，我可以尝试查看文本，看看是否可以找到更多证据来证明这一说法。
He says--the 'joy' is one example.
他说——“喜悦”就是一个例子。
I think his joy comes from that he's actually done something good for the first time in his life.
我认为他的喜悦来自于他一生中第一次真正做了一些好事。
He says, let's see.
他说，让我们看看。
David Wolpe: His wife came over to him; he looked at her, she was gazing at him with a despairing expression.
大卫·沃尔普：他的妻子向他走来；他看着她，她也用绝望的表情看着他。
He felt sorry for her.
他为她感到难过。
It's the very end.
这就是最后的结局了
It's, like, the last page or so.
大概是最后一页左右。
Russ Roberts: He says, at one point a little past that, I think, he says, "He felt sorry for them and needed to relieve their pain."
拉斯·罗伯茨：他说，我想，过了一会儿，他说，“他为他们感到难过，需要减轻他们的痛苦。”
Russ Roberts: He needed to free them and to free himself of this suffering.
拉斯·罗伯茨：他需要解放他们，也让自己摆脱这种痛苦。
And, I think--and of course, we can have an interesting conversation about how a person can control their own death without committing suicide--there's a lot of suggestion that people can give up and literally go.
而且，我认为——当然，我们可以就一个人如何在不自杀的情况下控制自己的死亡进行有趣的对话——有很多建议表明人们可以放弃并真正离开。
And, I feel like it's the only kindness that we see him do, is his embrace of his fate that brings comfort-- comfort --ironically, to them.
而且，我觉得这是我们看到他所做的唯一善意，就是他对自己命运的拥抱，这给他们带来了安慰——讽刺的是，安慰。
I mean, that's part of the reason I think Tolstoy gives him such a horrible ending, that his pain, screaming, and the--
我的意思是，这就是我认为托尔斯泰给了他如此可怕的结局的部分原因，他的痛苦、尖叫和——
Russ Roberts: And, we have that comic, semi-comic quote from the wife at the beginning that she had to endure it, and now she doesn't have to anymore.
拉斯·罗伯茨：而且，我们一开始就从妻子那句滑稽、半滑稽的话中得知，她必须忍受这一切，但现在她不必再忍受了。
His suffering is over.
他的痛苦已经结束了。
David Wolpe: Yes.
大卫·沃尔普：是的。
And, I do think that, in some way, people can--I don't know, 'control' is maybe too strong a word--their own death because I cannot tell you, almost uncountable times, people have told me, 'I left the room, and then they died.' And, people are upset, and I tell them this happens all the time .
而且，我确实认为，在某种程度上，人们可以——我不知道，“控制”这个词可能太重了——他们自己的死亡，因为我无法告诉你，几乎无数次，人们告诉我，“我离开了房间，然后他们就死了。”而且，人们很沮丧，我告诉他们这种情况经常发生。
You stay with someone for days, and then you go down to the cafeteria to get a cup of coffee, and that's when they die.
你和某人呆了几天，然后你去自助餐厅喝杯咖啡，那就是他们死的时候。
And so, I think there is something about--there is some dynamic in people's death where they understand, for themselves, 'This is the time to let go,' because it has happened too many times to be pure coincidence.
所以，我认为人们的死亡有某种动态，他们自己明白，“现在是放手的时候了”，因为它已经发生了太多次，不可能纯粹是巧合。
So, I think it might be that if you're on the verge, you have some moment when you actually can let go.
所以，我认为，如果你正处于边缘，你可能会有一些真正可以放手的时刻。
But, there was also, there is also that very suggestive line where it says something about 'the one who would understand,' or 'the only one who needs to understand understood.'
但是，还有一句非常有启发性的台词，它说的是“会理解的人”或“唯一需要理解的人”。
Russ Roberts: Yeah.
拉斯·罗伯茨：是的。
That's a bit cryptic.
这有点神秘。
I remember that line.
我记得那句话。
It's hard.
这很难。
Who is he referring to?
他指的是谁？
David Wolpe: And, I don't know if it means God or not.
大卫·沃尔普：而且，我不知道这是否意味着上帝。
David Wolpe: Well, because I was also reminded of the fact--three days of suffering before he dies.
大卫·沃尔普：嗯，因为我也想起了一个事实——他死前经历了三天的痛苦。
I mean, Tolstoy was very Jesus-oriented, and that's three days before the resurrection, too.
我的意思是，托尔斯泰非常注重耶稣，而且那也是在复活前三天。
David Wolpe: So, I would not be surprised if there was a subterranean Jesus theme--
大卫·沃尔普：所以，如果有一个地下耶稣主题，我不会感到惊讶——
David Wolpe: through Ivan Ilyich's death.
大卫·沃尔普：通过伊万·伊里奇的死。
Russ Roberts: Yeah, I agree.
拉斯·罗伯茨：是的，我同意。
I don't think it's so subterranean.
我不认为这是那么地下。
Russ Roberts: That's not a coincidence that he picked three.
拉斯·罗伯茨：他选择了三个并不是巧合。
David Wolpe: Yeah.
大卫·沃尔普：是的。
But, boy, what a remarkable--I mean, honestly, I can't imagine how, in 50 pages, you could get more of life and death.
但是，天哪，这真是太了不起了——我的意思是，老实说，我无法想象如何在 50 页中获得更多有关生与死的信息。
And, if this isn't a tribute to the extraordinary genius of this writer, I can't imagine what is.
而且，如果这不是对这位作家非凡天才的致敬，我无法想象什么才是。
Russ Roberts: Let's close.
拉斯·罗伯茨：我们结束吧。
I think, you know, as you get older, you are forced to confront your own mortality.
我想，你知道，随着年龄的增长，你被迫面对自己的死亡。
I think most of my life, I've been blessed or cursed--I think blessed--to not think about my own mortality.
我想，在我一生的大部分时间里，我要么被祝福，要么被诅咒——我认为是幸运的——不去思考自己的死亡。
I've been very blessed to be very healthy.
我很幸运能够保持健康。
And, when I talk about my age, it's just a number.
而且，当我谈论我的年龄时，这只是一个数字。
Russ Roberts: But, when you pass 70, you start to think that it's not just a number.
拉斯·罗伯茨：但是，当你过了 70 岁时，你开始认为这不仅仅是一个数字。
You can't help but be aware of what's going on in the real world, and you might be like Caius--you might be mortal.
你情不自禁地意识到现实世界中正在发生的事情，你可能会像凯厄斯一样——你可能是凡人。
And, life, both suffering and aging, forces you to be aware of your mortality.
而且，生活，无论是痛苦还是衰老，都会迫使你意识到自己的死亡。
Russ Roberts: And, I think people differ in how they deal with that in terms of how they allocate their time.
拉斯·罗伯茨：而且，我认为人们在如何分配时间方面处理这个问题的方式有所不同。
Some people spend more time with their family.
有些人花更多时间陪伴家人。
I was fortunate to interview Ben Sasse, who knows he's dying and has chosen to talk about his faith, about death, and about the country and what America could do to be a better place, what Americans can do to make it a better place.
我很幸运地采访了本·萨斯，他知道自己即将死去，并选择谈论他的信仰、死亡、国家以及美国可以做些什么来成为一个更好的地方，美国人可以做些什么来让这个地方变得更好。
And, I'm curious if you have any--let's close on the question of what you would encourage to help people think about using our life well?
而且，我很好奇你是否有任何建议——让我们结束这个问题：你会鼓励什么来帮助人们思考如何更好地利用我们的生活？
I gave my four--the suffering you don't choose usually, but the--to meditate, I think, is a healthy thing.
我把我的四种痛苦——你通常不会选择的痛苦，但是——用于冥想，我认为，是一件健康的事情。
To explore religion, I think, is a healthy thing.
我认为探索宗教是一件健康的事情。
Not everybody is going to have faith, so choose therapy, or choose meditation, or read Anna Karenina or "The Death of Ivan Ilyich." So, I'm curious: If I came to you and I'm a young person and I said, 'I don't want to be on my deathbed and think I didn't lead my life the way I should have.
不是每个人都会有信仰，所以选择治疗，或者选择冥想，或者阅读《安娜·卡列尼娜》或《伊凡·伊里奇之死》。所以，我很好奇：如果我来找你，我是一个年轻人，我说，‘我不想在临终时认为我没有按照我应该的方式生活。
I didn't live as I ought to have lived,' what would you recommend?
我没有按照我应该的方式生活，”你会建议什么？
What do you think about when that--
当那个时候你会想到什么——
David Wolpe: I would recommend--okay, I probably would recommend lots of things, but I'll recommend two things now.
David Wolpe：我会推荐——好吧，我可能会推荐很多东西，但我现在会推荐两件事。
The first is choose people to be close to you who want you to be better.
首先是选择与你亲近、希望你变得更好的人。
Not that they're going to push you every single day, but they want the better version of you.
并不是说他们每天都会逼迫你，而是他们想要更好的你。
They're not going to relax into your being less than you ought to be.
他们不会对你的存在放松得比你应该的要放松。
And, the second thing that I would say is that you should choose something outside of your work that you love, to enhance your life.
而且，我要说的第二件事是，你应该选择工作之外你喜欢的事情来改善你的生活。
For me, it's not exactly outside my work, but it was either literature or maybe chess.
对我来说，这并不完全超出我的工作范围，但它要么是文学，要么是国际象棋。
For others, it can be music.
对于其他人来说，它可以是音乐。
It can be theater, it can be movies.
可以是戏剧，也可以是电影。
But, you should have a passion that's not about the rest of your life.
但是，你应该有一种与你的余生无关的热情。
The obvious things are--obviously, you should spend time with the people you love and have deep relationships, that's the single most important thing.
显而易见的事情是——显然，你应该花时间和你爱的人在一起，并建立深厚的关系，这是最重要的事情。
But, everybody will tell you that, and it's true.
但是，每个人都会告诉你，这是真的。
But also, make sure that those relationships elevate you, and make sure that you explore--life is so incredibly rich, reach outside the thing you do every day to explore some world.
但也要确保这些关系能够提升你的水平，并确保你不断探索——生活是如此丰富，超越你每天所做的事情去探索一些世界。
Because, I think that it will enhance your life.
因为，我认为这会改善你的生活。
And, also, remember, I just want to say one thing about the deathbed.
另外，请记住，关于临终之际，我只想说一件事。
When people say, as you mentioned earlier, no one says on their deathbed that they would spend more time at the office.
正如您之前提到的，当人们说时，没有人在临终前说他们会在办公室花更多时间。
I don't know how much we weight the deathbed over the rest of one's life, because if you gave that person 30 more years, my guess is they would end up spending a lot of time in the office again.
我不知道我们对一个人的余生在临终前的承受力有多大，因为如果你再给那个人30年的时间，我猜他们最终会再次在办公室里度过很多时间。
David Wolpe: Yeah.
大卫·沃尔普：是的。
We have to realize life is full of lots of stuff, and don't isolate and limit yourself too much.
我们必须认识到生活充满了很多东西，不要过多地孤立和限制自己。
Explore the richness of God's world, and I hope you offer gratitude to God for giving it to us.
探索上帝世界的丰富性，我希望你感谢上帝将它赐给我们。
Russ Roberts: I want to say one follow-up to that.
拉斯·罗伯茨：我想说一点后续内容。
I think the first thing you said is extremely novel, to surround yourself with people who expect more of you.
我认为你说的第一件事非常新奇，让自己周围都是对你期望更高的人。
And, a variation on that is really implicit in the story, which is: Don't surround yourself with people who care about the superficial, and how their curtains look, or their screen, or whatever it is.
而且，这个故事中确实隐含了一个变化，那就是：不要让自己周围都是那些关心肤浅的人，关心他们的窗帘、屏幕或其他什么东西的外观。
Russ Roberts: And, for me, I think the hardest part of life, if you want to be better, is remembering, is paying attention, is being aware.
拉斯·罗伯茨：对我来说，我认为如果你想变得更好，生活中最困难的部分就是记住、关注、意识到。
Russ Roberts: And, I think being around people who take life seriously helps you remember that it's serious, and it helps you avoid those problems that you might have later in life of regret.
拉斯·罗伯茨：而且，我认为和那些认真对待生活的人在一起可以帮助你记住生活是严肃的，并且可以帮助你避免在以后的生活中可能会遇到的那些令人遗憾的问题。
Do you have any thoughts on that, on how to keep it front-and-center?
您对此有什么想法，如何保持其领先地位吗？
I think it's so easy to let the years go by, and float along, and be carried by the mores of the people around you to get the promotion, or whatever is the thing that they honor.
我认为让岁月流逝，随波逐流，被周围人的道德观念所左右，以获得升职，或者任何他们所尊敬的事情是很容易的。
David Wolpe: I actually think that this is where--yeah, this is where meditation, or prayer, or a regular practice of stopping, of silence, of forcing yourself not to always be in front of a screen, or a book, or a person.
大卫·沃尔普：我实际上认为这就是——是的，这就是冥想、祈祷，或者定期练习停下来、保持沉默、强迫自己不要总是在屏幕、一本书或一个人面前。
But, actually, to take those moments of what the Jewish tradition calls [foreign language 01:08:19], which is aloneness, to evaluate your life and the world so that it doesn't always rush by without your noticing is incredibly important and growthful.
但实际上，利用犹太传统所谓的[外语01:08:19]（即孤独）的时刻来评估你的生活和世界，这样它就不会总是在你不注意的情况下匆匆而过，这是非常重要和成长的。
Russ Roberts: My guest today has been David Wolpe.
拉斯·罗伯茨：今天我的客人是大卫·沃尔普。
David, thanks for being part of EconTalk.
大卫，感谢您参与 EconTalk。