incentives are for losers with adam mastroianni

Incentives matter, sure.

当然，激励很重要。

But what should you do when following the incentives means quietly participating in something wrong?

但是，当遵循激励措施意味着悄悄参与错误的事情时，你该怎么办？

Psychologist Adam Mastroianni argues that obeying bad incentives--shading a headline for clicks, keeping the found wallet because no one's watching--is "loser behavior," a surrender of the hardest and most human task: figuring out right from wrong for yourself.

心理学家亚当·马斯楚安尼 (Adam Mastroianni) 认为，服从不良激励措施——为点击而屏蔽标题、因为没人看而保留钱包——是“失败者行为”，是放弃最艰巨、最人性化的任务：为自己辨别是非。

In this wide-ranging EconTalk conversation, he and Russ Roberts explore Le Guin's "Omelas," the "big fish" you glimpse that could upend your whole life, and Charles Sumner's near-fatal courage.

在这场内容广泛的 EconTalk 对话中，他和拉斯·罗伯茨 (Russ Roberts) 探讨了勒吉恩 (Le Guin) 的“奥梅拉斯”(Omelas)，即你瞥见的可能会颠覆你一生的“大鱼”，以及查尔斯·萨姆纳 (Charles Sumner) 近乎致命的勇气。

They wrestle with whether good incentives or good people matter more, why lavish academic salaries may attract exactly the wrong scholars, and the moral lessons of marriage.

他们争论的是良好的激励措施还是优秀的人才更重要，为什么丰厚的学术薪水可能会吸引完全错误的学者，以及婚姻的道德教训。

My nephew Zaakir Tameez recently wrote a well-received biography of Sumner: “Charles Sumner: Conscience of a Nation”

我的侄子扎基尔·塔米兹最近写了一本广受好评的萨姆纳传记：《查尔斯·萨姆纳：一个国家的良知》

Mastroianni starts with an assumption he never really examines: that we should organize our lives around trying to be morally good and doing “the right thing.” Human societies have always had norms, obligations, prohibitions, duties and customs.

马斯楚安尼从一个他从未真正检验过的假设开始：我们应该围绕道德良好和做“正确的事”来组织我们的生活。人类社会一直都有规范、义务、禁令、义务和习俗。

That is different from treating moral living as a reflective project.

这与将道德生活视为反思项目不同。

One can fulfill obligations, care for others, avoid prohibited acts, pursue worthwhile ends, and otherwise get on with living without making “Am I doing the right thing?” the governing question.

一个人可以履行义务、关心他人、避免被禁止的行为、追求有价值的目标，以及继续生活，而不必担心“我做的事情正确吗？”治理问题。

Mastroianni treats that orientation not as one possible way to live, but as part of “the human mission.”

马斯楚安尼认为这种定位不是一种可能的生活方式，而是“人类使命”的一部分。

Even granting that premise, he repeatedly invokes “good,” “bad,” and “the right thing” as though these were properties of actions that a morally serious person can simply recognize.

即使承认这个前提，他还是反复引用“好”、“坏”和“正确的事情”，就好像这些是道德上严肃的人可以简单识别的行为属性。

They aren’t.

他们不是。

They are judgments made within a moral framework, and he neither identifies his framework nor argues for it against competing ones.

它们是在道德框架内做出的判断，他既不认同自己的框架，也不与竞争的框架进行争论。

“Do the right thing regardless of the incentives” therefore skips the central problem: how do you know what the right thing is?

因此，“无论激励如何，都做正确的事”跳过了核心问题：你如何知道什么是正确的事？

Moral conviction is not moral knowledge.

道德信念不是道德知识。

Nor are most actions simply good or bad.

大多数行为也不仅仅是好或坏。

Living, reproducing, growing food, or building a house produces benefits and imposes costs on other people, other organisms, and the environment.

生活、繁殖、种植食物或建造房屋会带来好处，但也会给其他人、其他生物和环境带来成本。

Mastroianni largely avoids this problem by choosing cases—slavery, fraud, Philip Morris, Omelas—in which he expects the moral judgment to be shared.

马斯楚安尼通过选择案例——奴隶制、欺诈、菲利普·莫里斯、奥梅拉斯——在很大程度上避免了这个问题，他希望在这些案例中能够共同做出道德判断。

But agreement is not an argument.

但同意并不是争论。

Even Omelas gives us descriptive clarity, not normative clarity.

甚至 Omelas 也为我们提供了描述性的清晰度，而不是规范性的清晰度。

We know exactly who benefits and who suffers; what follows morally still depends on the framework we bring to it.

我们清楚地知道谁受益、谁受害；道德上的后续发展仍然取决于我们为其引入的框架。

This is also the problem with many moral thought experiments: they strip away much of the ambiguity of actual life and can then mistake the certainty produced by the construction for moral insight.

这也是许多道德思想实验的问题：它们剥离了现实生活中的大部分模糊性，然后可能将构建所产生的确定性误认为是道德洞察力。

His narrower point is sound: being rewarded for doing something doesn’t make it right.

他的狭义观点是正确的：因做某事而获得奖励并不意味着它就是正确的。

But “do the right thing” gets us almost nowhere.

但“做正确的事”几乎不会带来任何结果。

He hasn’t established that moral self-scrutiny should organize our lives, or given us a way to determine what “right” is when we disagree.

他没有确立道德自我审视应该组织我们的生活，也没有给我们一种在我们意见不一致时确定什么是“正确”的方法。

Those are the difficult questions, and his argument largely begins after them.

这些都是难题，他的论证主要是在这些问题之后开始的。

I’m a lifelong Catholic and I personally know many fellow Catholics who profess that they are in 100% agreement with the Church’s teachings.

我是一名终生的天主教徒，我个人认识许多天主教徒，他们声称他们 100% 同意教会的教义。

They see this as a virtue.

他们认为这是一种美德。

I’m what might be called a “cafeteria Catholic”, I’m in about 80% agreement with the Church’s teachings.

我是一个可以被称为“自助餐厅天主教徒”的人，我大约 80% 同意教会的教义。

I also see that as a virtue.

我也认为这是一种美德。

We both claim to be virtuous, but for opposite reasons, from an identical set of incentives.

我们都声称自己是有道德的，但出于相反的原因，来自相同的激励机制。

I thought this discussion was (perhaps unsurprisingly) actually much better than original post that inspired it.

我认为这个讨论（也许并不令人惊讶）实际上比激发它的原始帖子要好得多。

As David Dreyfus points out (and Russ alluded to late in the podcast re being the Philip Morris marketing director) we don’t always know what the good is.

正如大卫·德雷福斯（David Dreyfus）指出的那样（拉斯在播客后期提到他是菲利普莫里斯营销总监），我们并不总是知道好处是什么。

Indeed it is Hayek’s insight that we can’t know what the best use of our capacities are unless we rely on the price signals sent by the labor market.

事实上，哈耶克的见解是，除非我们依赖劳动力市场发出的价格信号，否则我们无法知道我们的能力的最佳用途是什么。

That’s not to say that ethical concerns are irrelevant, but they are certainly not determinative by themselves.

这并不是说道德问题无关紧要，但它们本身并不是决定性的。

Relatedly, it’s also true that there is often inherent uncertainty in what the “right” course of action is.

与此相关的是，“正确”的行动方案往往存在固有的不确定性。

(This is one lesson of Remains of the Day , where “peace” seemed like the right course but in hindsight was dead wrong.) Often this involves tradeoffs between being (i) a loyal group member who makes compromises to retain influence in the group at the cost of personal integrity and (ii) being a person of unimpeachable integrity who leaves a group with which they disagree to pursue a less adulterated path alone with far less influence.

（这是《长日留痕》中的一个教训，其中“和平”似乎是正确的道路，但事后看来是完全错误的。）这通常涉及到两种权衡：（i）一个忠诚的团体成员，以个人诚信为代价做出妥协，以保留在团体中的影响力；（ii）一个无可挑剔的正直的人，离开一个他们不同意的团体，独自追求一条影响力小得多的不那么掺杂的道路。

I am far more inclined to (ii), but I also realize now that (a) you generally need groups to accomplish things, and (b) groups need loyalty in order to stay together.

我更倾向于 (ii)，但我现在也意识到 (a) 通常需要团队来完成任务，(b) 团队需要忠诚才能团结在一起。

So people make compromises, and often those compromises are influenced by what is good for them personally rather than for the world (but that’s another reason why incentives do matter).

因此人们会做出妥协，而这些妥协往往受到对他们个人而不是对世界有利的因素的影响（但这也是激励措施重要的另一个原因）。

I think Adam fails to grapple adequately with the Milton Friedman quotation (which is one of my favorites).

我认为亚当未能充分理解米尔顿·弗里德曼的引文（这是我最喜欢的引文之一）。

Often it is not sufficient that everyone has good intentions if the incentives created by institutions are poor.

如果机构创造的激励措施很差，那么通常每个人都有良好的意愿是不够的。

Per point #1, good intentions are not enough even if men were angels– and men are not angels.

根据第一点，即使人是天使，仅有良好的意愿也是不够的——而且人不是天使。

This is why The Wire is such a masterpiece the whole series is about the power of broken institutions to foil even those with the best of intentions.

这就是为什么《火线》是一部杰作，整个系列讲述的是破碎机构的力量，甚至可以挫败那些怀有最好意图的人。

Unfortunately the main takeaway is really that you need a combination of (i) individual behaving (mostly) ethically and (ii) good (or at least decent) incentives and institutions, for human flourishing you can’t just have one.

不幸的是，主要的结论实际上是，你需要（i）个人行为（大部分）符合道德和（ii）良好（或至少体面）的激励和制度的结合，为了人类的繁荣，你不能只拥有一个。

It is somewhat unsatisfying and inelegant conclusion, but I believe it to be true.

这是一个有点令人不满意和不优雅的结论，但我相信这是真的。

Lest this come across as too critical I should add that I love Adam Mastroianni.

为了避免这显得太挑剔，我应该补充一点，我爱亚当·马斯楚安尼。

When I heard the Econtalk episode about Peer Review, I too was persuaded and signed up for his Substack immediately and have found it to a be a source of many insights.

当我听到 Econtalk 中关于同行评审的一集时，我也被说服并立即注册了他的 Substack，并发现它是许多见解的来源。

One more thought re “Even though the consequence was I did not have a job, but it felt like I didn’t have a job for exactly the right reasons.

另一种想法是“尽管结果是我没有工作，但感觉我没有工作是出于完全正确的原因。

And so, in that moment, I felt a little bit of the same freedom that I think the monks had, which is just, yeah, what if you just give yourself over to doing the thing you think is right and then try to make your peace with the world that results from that?

所以，在那一刻，我感受到了一点和僧侣们所拥有的相同的自由，那就是，是的，如果你只是让自己去做你认为正确的事情，然后尝试与由此产生的世界和平相处，会怎么样？

Which, it’s so much easier.” This sounds very much like Howard Roark in The Fountainhead.

哪个，这容易多了。”这听起来很像《源泉》中的霍华德·罗克。

A very good perspective on this is the Michael Douglas film Falling Down (spoiler) with the classic line “I’m the bad guy?

迈克尔·道格拉斯 (Michael Douglas) 的电影《坠落》(Falling Down)（剧透）对此有一个很好的视角，其中有一句经典台词“我是坏人？

But I did everything they asked”.

但我做了他们要求的一切”。

Chillingly Ordinary Men chronicles the diaries of Nazi death squads and how those who pulled the trigger felt about the horrors they create – they were “only following the orders”.

《令人心寒的普通人》记录了纳粹敢死队的日记，以及那些扣动扳机的人对他们所制造的恐怖的感受——他们“只是服从命令”。

Parts of Oppenheimer address these questions too.

奥本海默的部分著作也解决了这些问题。

We have small choices to make every day and they add up.

我们每天都要做出一些小选择，而这些选择会累积起来。

Life can change direction if we “fill the unforgiving minute”, as Rudyard Kipling suggested.

正如拉迪亚德·吉卜林（Rudyard Kipling）所说，如果我们“填满无情的一分钟”，生活就会改变方向。

There are some very interesting connections in this discussion that may be easy to miss.

这次讨论中有一些非常有趣的联系，但可能很容易被忽视。

40:20 Russ Roberts: I want to say something about social circles, …

40:20 拉斯·罗伯茨：我想说一些关于社交圈的事情，……

Adam Smith talked a lot about how we want to be lovely and we want to be loved.

亚当·斯密谈了很多关于我们如何想要变得可爱以及我们如何想要被爱。

So, we want the approval of the people around us.

所以，我们希望得到周围人的认可。

Note that this does not mean the people physically nearest to us, but rather the social group/tribe of “people whose approval you want”.

请注意，这并不是指距离我们最近的人，而是指“您想要获得认可的人”的社会群体/部落。

Consider this example.

考虑这个例子。

A little after 20:33, Adam Mastroianni discusses

20:33 不久后，Adam Mastroianni 讨论

“…

“……

a study from the 1970s where they get a bunch of seminary students, and they either assign them to give a neutral lecture about career opportunities or a lecture about the Good Samaritan, which is a biblical story about stopping to help someone in need.

在 20 世纪 70 年代的一项研究中，他们找了一群神学院的学生，让他们要么做一个关于职业机会的中立讲座，要么做一个关于好撒玛利亚人的讲座，这是一个关于停下来帮助有需要的人的圣经故事。

…

……

On the way, they see this guy who is slumped over.

路上，他们看到了这个倒在地上的家伙。

He’s part of the study.

他是这项研究的一部分。

They don’t know that.

他们不知道这一点。

And, the thing that’s being measured is just: do you stop and check on this guy or not?

而且，所衡量的只是：你是否停下来检查这个人？

And, all that matters is: did you think you were late to give your lecture, not what you’re lecturing about?”

而且，重要的是：你是否认为你演讲迟到了，而不是你演讲的内容？”

Why is that?

这是为什么？

Because they wanted to be loved by and to be lovely to the people who were waiting to hear the lecture.

因为他们想要被那些等待听讲座的人所喜爱、所喜爱。

Those were the people “whose approval” they wanted.

这些人就是他们想要“得到认可”的人。

In Russ’s next reply, he describes what the study participants likely also expected about the values of those waiting to hear the lecture, those whose approval was desired.

在拉斯的下一个回复中，他描述了研究参与者可能对那些等待听讲座的人的价值观的期望，以及那些希望得到认可的人的价值观。

Russ suggests “an absurd science fiction fantasy” in which someone proposes to end the lectures and go outside to try to help people.

拉斯提出了“一个荒谬的科幻幻想”，其中有人提议结束讲座并出去尝试帮助人们。

What is the expected response?

预期的反应是什么？

“And, the answer is, ‘Could the security people come here and take care of this man?’ Because we have work to do.

“答案是，‘安全人员可以来这里照顾这个人吗？’因为我们还有工作要做。

We have our papers to present and our CVs to burnish.”

我们有论文要展示，我们的简历要打磨。”

The only way out is to make a different decision about exactly whose approval one is seeking foremost.

唯一的出路是就首先寻求谁的认可做出不同的决定。

At 31:22 Russ brings up the idea of “religion” as “one way to do it.” But unspecified “religion” can point in wildly different directions.

在 31:22 中，拉斯提出了“宗教”的概念，作为“实现这一目标的一种方式”。但未指明的“宗教”可能指向截然不同的方向。

Atheistic ideologies have done even worse, killing millions more than “religious” wars combined.

无神论意识形态的表现甚至更糟，造成数百万人死亡的人数比“宗教”战争的总和还要多。

The particulars of exactly who one seriously seeks to follow, learn from, and copy are vitally important.

一个人真正想要追随谁、向谁学习、谁是复制者的细节至关重要。

If one wants to become the kind of person who stops to help despite the costs like the good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37), then a reasonable place to begin that journey would be to apprentice to the one who told that very story as a way to illustrate what it means to love God and love one’s neighbor.

如果一个人想成为那种像好撒玛利亚人那样不顾一切代价而停下来提供帮助的人（路加福音10:25-37），那么开始这段旅程的一个合理的起点就是向讲述这个故事的人当学徒，以此来说明爱神和爱邻舍的意义。

The point about lavish academic salaries attracting the wrong scholars stuck with me.

丰厚的学术薪水吸引了错误的学者，这一点一直困扰着我。

I wonder though whether bad incentives really are just “loser behavior” or whether sometimes the deck is so stacked that opting out isn’t as available as Mastroianni suggests.

我想知道，不良激励是否真的只是“失败者行为”，或者有时情况是否如此，以至于无法像马斯楚安尼建议的那样选择退出。

A great episode: it will probably make my top five.

很棒的一集：它可能会进入我的前五名。

Mastroianni’s sense of freedom after job fair reminded me of a point made by Tom Wolfe.

马斯楚安尼在招聘会后的自由感让我想起汤姆·沃尔夫提出的一个观点。

I’m not a fan of his (I stopped reading him after The Bonfire) but in 1999 I heard him talk about “manliness”, the idea at the core of his latest book.

我不是他的粉丝（在《篝火》之后我就不再读他的作品了），但 1999 年我听到他谈论“男子气概”，这是他最新著作的核心理念。

Wolfe defined a “man in full” as someone who has no dilemmas.

沃尔夫将“完整的人”定义为没有困境的人。

His belief system gives him the strength not even to consider alternatives to putting it into practice.

他的信仰体系给了他力量，甚至不去考虑将其付诸实践的其他选择。

He illustrates the idea with a story told by Epictetus: Nero liked to humiliate prominent Romans by making them perform in costume in plays he had written.

他用爱比克泰德讲述的一个故事来说明这个想法：尼禄喜欢让罗马名人穿着他写的戏剧表演，以此来羞辱他们。

Florus arrives at Agrippinus’s house in a panic, having been summoned to act: if he does, he will be disgraced before everyone he respects; if he refuses, he will be killed.

弗洛鲁斯惊慌失措地来到阿格里皮努斯的家，因为他被召唤去行动：如果他这样做，他将在他所尊敬的每个人面前蒙羞；如果他拒绝，他就会被杀。

Agrippinus says he has received the same summons.

阿格里皮努斯说他也收到了同样的传票。

“What shall we do?” Florus asks.

“我们该怎么办？”弗洛鲁斯问道。

Agrippinus’s reply (from memory): “Since you ask, I’ll tell you.

阿格里皮努斯的回答（凭记忆）：“既然你问了，我就告诉你。

You’ll go ahead and act, and I’ll stay right here.” With much less at stake, this is the essence Mastroianni’s answer to anyone agonising over that offer from Duke.

你先行动吧，我就留在这里。”由于风险要小得多，这就是马斯楚安尼对那些因杜克大学的报价而苦恼的人给出的答案。

I’ve purchased an anthology of Le Guin’s work for “those who walk away from Omelas.

我为“那些离开奥梅拉斯的人”购买了勒吉恩的作品选集。

Looking forward to reading it

期待阅读它

Additional ideas and people mentioned in this podcast episode:

本播客节目中提到的其他想法和人物：

A few more readings and background resources:

更多阅读材料和背景资源：

More related EconTalk podcast episodes, by Category:

更多相关的 EconTalk 播客剧集，按类别：

* As an Amazon Associate, Econlib earns from qualifying purchases.

* 作为亚马逊合作伙伴，Econlib 通过符合条件的购买赚取收入。

Intro.

简介。

[Recording date: August 12, 2026.]

[记录日期：2026年8月12日。]

Russ Roberts: Today is August 12th, 2026, and my guest is psychologist Adam Mastroianni.

Russ Roberts：今天是 2026 年 8 月 12 日，我的嘉宾是心理学家 Adam Mastroianni。

His Substack is Experimental History.

他的子堆栈是实验历史。

This is Adam's fifth appearance on the program.

这是亚当第五次出现在该节目中。

He was last here in April of 2024 talking about our emotional thermostat.

他上次来是在 2024 年 4 月，谈论我们的情绪恒温器。

Our topic for today is close to my heart: incentives.

今天我们的主题很贴近我的心：激励。

And it's based on a recent essay of Adam's, "Incentives Are for Losers." Bold, bold claim.

它是基于亚当最近的一篇文章“激励是针对失败者的”。大胆、大胆的主张。

Adam, welcome back to EconTalk.

Adam，欢迎回到 EconTalk。

Adam Mastroianni: Hey, thanks for having me back.

Adam Mastroianni：嘿，谢谢你让我回来。

Good to be back again.

很高兴再次回来。

Russ Roberts: Now, you start off your essay saying something that most economists would agree with, which is the bad things we see around us--pollution, polarizing social media, scientific fraud--these are due to bad incentives.

拉斯·罗伯茨：现在，你在文章的开头说了一些大多数经济学家都会同意的事情，那就是我们在我们周围看到的坏事——污染、两极分化的社交媒体、科学欺诈——这些都是由于不良激励造成的。

And, that's the problem.

而且，这就是问题所在。

And, the economist sees this and says, 'If we want to make the world a better place, we need better incentives.' But, you're not as impressed with that argument.

而且，这位经济学家看到了这一点并说道：“如果我们想让世界变得更美好，我们就需要更好的激励措施。”但是，你对这个论点并不那么印象深刻。

So, what's wrong with that viewpoint on the world?

那么，这种世界观有什么问题呢？

Adam Mastroianni: First, I feel like I should say what is right about it, which I do think this is a better analysis than, I think, the default analysis that people have, which is people do bad things because they are bad.

Adam Mastroianni：首先，我觉得我应该说一下什么是正确的，我确实认为这是一个比人们默认的分析更好的分析，默认的分析是人们因为自己不好而做坏事。

Adam Mastroianni: And, they produce badness from their internal stock of badness.

亚当·马斯楚安尼：而且，他们从内部的坏事中产生坏事。

And, isn't it so bad?

而且，这样不是很糟糕吗？

There's so many bad people.

坏人真多啊

If only we could, say, put them all on an island or launch them into space.

比如说，如果我们能够将它们全部放在一个岛上或将它们发射到太空就好了。

And, so, there is something I appreciate about the incentives analysis, which says people at least have reasons for what they do.

因此，我很欣赏激励分析的一些内容，它表明人们至少有他们所做的事情的理由。

And, if we think through the reasons, we might be able to identify why they're doing what they're doing.

而且，如果我们仔细思考原因，我们也许能够确定他们为什么要做他们正在做的事情。

And, if we could change the reasons, maybe we could change the bad behavior.

而且，如果我们能改变原因，也许我们就能改变不良行为。

I've got no problem with any of that.

我对此没有任何问题。

But it does, I think, miss something, an important caveat, which is: if you are one of these people who is doing something because an external reward structure tells you it's good and will give you a pat on the head or a little treat or a reward for doing it, that's loser behavior.

但我认为，它确实错过了一些东西，一个重要的警告，那就是：如果你是这些人中的一员，因为外部奖励结构告诉你这件事很好，并且会因为做这件事而拍拍你的头，或者给你一点款待或奖励，那么你就是失败者的行为。

That, as we are trying to fix the incentives so that people don't try to game the systems and do bad things, we should also not try to be one of the people who is gaming the systems and doing the bad things.

也就是说，当我们试图修复激励措施，使人们不会试图玩弄系统并做坏事时，我们也不应该试图成为玩弄系统并做坏事的人之一。

This is the critique that I wish was also part of the analysis, which is: even if you have a reason to do a bad thing, you shouldn't do it.

这就是我希望分析的一部分的批评，那就是：即使你有理由做坏事，你也不应该这样做。

I realize it's an obvious point, but some points are so obvious that no one ever thinks to say them.

我意识到这是一个显而易见的观点，但有些观点是如此明显以至于没有人想到要说出来。

Russ Roberts: Yeah.

拉斯·罗伯茨：是的。

I don't think it's such an obvious point, actually.

实际上，我认为这并不是那么明显的一点。

I'm going to invoke one of my favorite short stories.

我要引用我最喜欢的短篇小说之一。

I don't know if you can get it online anymore, but it used to be online.

不知道现在还能不能上网，以前是可以上网的。

It's called "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas."

它的名字叫《远离奥梅拉斯的人》。

Adam Mastroianni: Yeah.

亚当·马斯楚安尼：是的。

I've heard of it.

我听说过。

Russ Roberts: If it is online, it's probably a pirated copy, and we will not probably link to it, but you can find it if you look for it, I suspect.

拉斯·罗伯茨：如果它在网上，它可能是盗版，我们可能不会链接到它，但我怀疑，如果你寻找它，你可以找到它。

It's by Ursula Le Guin, and it's a magnificent story.

这是乌苏拉·勒吉恩 (Ursula Le Guin) 的作品，是一个精彩的故事。

It's very short.

它很短。

[SPOILER ALERT, till time mark 6:26] The story is very simple: that there's this magnificent village, Omelas, and she describes with great power the pleasantness of living there.

[剧透警告，直到时间标记 6:26] 故事很简单：有一个宏伟的村庄，奥梅拉斯，她用巨大的力量描述了生活在那里的愉快。

It's just absolutely delightful.

这真是太令人愉快了。

And then, she just mentions that everyone in the town knows that the joy and delight and prosperity of the town depends on the existence of a small child who is kept in the basement of a building under horrific conditions and who has a miserable time of it.

然后，她只是提到，镇上的每个人都知道，镇上的欢乐和繁荣取决于一个小孩的存在，这个小孩被关在建筑物的地下室，条件恶劣，度过了悲惨的时光。

It's an example that comes from The Brothers Karamazov .

这是来自卡拉马佐夫兄弟的一个例子。

Some people suggest she took it from there.

有些人建议她从那里拿走它。

Some say it was just independent; maybe she's influenced unconsciously.

有人说它只是独立的；有人说它只是独立的。也许她在不知不觉中受到了影响。

But, the point is very simple.

但是，要点很简单。

It says that if you live in this town, you have a glorious time, except there's this side-cost of incredible suffering of a child kept in a miserable state.

它说，如果你住在这个镇上，你会度过一段美好的时光，除了一个孩子处于悲惨状态所带来的难以置信的痛苦的副作用之外。

And, the story is very simple: that there are some people who walk away from Omelas.

而且，故事很简单：有些人离开了奥梅拉斯。

They cannot handle, they do not accept, that trade-off.

他们无法处理、也不接受这种权衡。

They do not want to profit from that system.

他们不想从该系统中获利。

So they just leave town.

所以他们就离开了城镇。

And, on one level, that's crazy.

从某种程度上来说，这太疯狂了。

Why would you want to leave one of the most beautiful places on earth?

您为什么要离开地球上最美丽的地方之一？

But, on the other hand, why would you want to be a party to grotesque suffering, no matter how many there are of you who are benefiting?

但是，另一方面，为什么你们想要成为怪异苦难的一方，无论你们中有多少人受益呢？

And the incentives are to stay.

激励因素是留下来。

Adam Mastroianni: Yeah.

亚当·马斯楚安尼：是的。

This story was on my mind as I was writing this piece.

当我写这篇文章时，这个故事就在我的脑海里。

There was a section that I ultimately cut that was about--in that story, you have a metaphysical connection to this child.

我最终剪掉了一个部分——在那个故事中，你与这个孩子有一种形而上的联系。

That it is basically some kind of enchantment that causes the good from the bad.

它基本上是某种导致好与坏的魔法。

In real life, I think our connection to the suffering is much more of, like, a Rube Goldberg machine situation where, like, I am not the person torturing the child.

在现实生活中，我认为我们与痛苦的联系更像是鲁布·戈德堡机器的情况，我不是折磨孩子的人。

I'm actually three warehouses away.

我实际上距离三个仓库很远。

I'm just the hammer that swings and hits the ball that rolls down the ramp so that it lights the match.

我只是挥动的锤子，击中滚下坡道的球，从而点燃火柴。

And, all the bad things are very far away from me, and I'm not personally causing them.

而且，所有的不好的事情都离我很远，而且不是我一个人造成的。

I am in the causal chain that ends up with the bad thing happening, but it's not me doing it.

我处于导致坏事发生的因果链中，但这不是我做的。

And, I think this makes it a lot harder to walk away because you're so much further from your responsibility, and it feels so much less heroic.

而且，我认为这会让你更难离开，因为你离自己的责任太远了，而且感觉不那么英勇。

Leaving the Rube Goldberg machine is not shaking the dust of Omelas from your feet as you walk away.

离开鲁布·戈德堡机器并不意味着当你走开时抖掉脚上奥梅拉斯的灰尘。

It looks much more like, I'm not going to be VP [Vice President] of brand partnerships at Philip Morris.

看起来更像是，我不会成为菲利普莫里斯品牌合作伙伴关系的副总裁。

It's just not a kind of heroic story that we see depicted on screen or in the epics that animate our culture, which I think is why it's harder to be inspired to exhibit that kind of bravery.

这并不是我们在银幕或史诗中看到的那种为我们的文化注入活力的英雄故事，我认为这就是为什么很难受到启发来表现出这种勇敢。

Russ Roberts: We're way off the rails.

拉斯·罗伯茨：我们已经偏离正轨了。

We'll come back to your essay in a second, but I think it's interesting because I think that you can debate what Ursula Le Guin's point is.

我们稍后会回到你的文章，但我认为这很有趣，因为我认为你可以辩论乌苏拉·勒吉恩的观点是什么。

And, I used to teach that story and ask students: What do you learn from the story?

而且，我过去常常教这个故事并问学生：你从这个故事中学到了什么？

What do you think Ursula Le Guin wanted us to learn?

你认为乌苏拉·勒吉恩想让我们学到什么？

In my mind, it was an anti-utilitarianism lesson, but not everybody agreed with that.

在我看来，这是一个反功利主义的教训，但并非所有人都同意这一点。

And, in fact, your example of the Rube Goldberg machine--that you're part of this unbelievably complex system and you're not delivering the pain and suffering firsthand in any way--that perspective is, of course, what encourages some people to say, because it's a complex system, we got to burn the whole thing down and start over.

事实上，你举的鲁布·戈德堡机器的例子——你是这个令人难以置信的复杂系统的一部分，你不会以任何方式直接传递痛苦和苦难——这种观点当然鼓励一些人说，因为这是一个复杂的系统，我们必须烧掉整个系统并重新开始。

And, on both the Left and the Right these days, I think there are people who see the world as so dispiriting, ironically, even though they are on the Left and the Right.

而且，如今无论是左派还是右派，我认为有些人认为世界是如此令人沮丧，讽刺的是，尽管他们属于左派和右派。

You'd think one side would be whooping it up and the other side would be angry.

你可能会认为一方会欢呼雀跃，而另一方会生气。

But, they just say, 'If I walk away, it doesn't accomplish anything.

但是，他们只是说，‘如果我离开，那不会有任何成就。

They just slot another person into my job.

他们只是将另一个人安排到我的工作中。

So, I have to burn down the whole system.

所以，我必须烧掉整个系统。

I have to destroy it and start over.'

我必须摧毁它并重新开始。

And, I think that's a mistake.

而且，我认为这是一个错误。

I think that's an incredibly dangerous attitude, but that's not the point of your essay.

我认为这是一种极其危险的态度，但这不是你文章的重点。

So, unless you want to add anything to that, I'm going to move on.

所以，除非你想添加任何内容，否则我将继续。

Adam Mastroianni: No. No. I think it's totally tied in: that I think one reason why people think it is acceptable to obey the incentives is just like, look, things are so complicated.

Adam Mastroianni：不，不。我认为这完全是相关的：我认为人们认为遵守激励措施是可以接受的原因之一就是，看，事情是如此复杂。

There's no ethical consumption under capitalism, and whatever the Right's version of that is, there is bad in the world that's beyond my capacity to do anything about.

资本主义下不存在道德消费，无论右派的版本是什么，世界上都有超出我能力范围的坏事。

So, if I can't burn down the whole system, I might as well participate in it.

所以，如果我不能烧毁整个系统，我还不如参与其中。

And maybe I can reduce the child's suffering by .3%.

也许我可以将孩子的痛苦减少0.3%。

And, I think, like, 'Yeah, of course, problems in the world are very complex.' You don't get to pull the lever yourself, which is why I would rather think about: What's the good that you can do?

而且，我想，“是的，当然，世界上的问题非常复杂。”你自己无法拉动杠杆，这就是为什么我宁愿思考：你能做些什么好事？

What is the internal locus of control you can have?

你可以拥有的内部控制点是什么？

What are the things that you value?

你看重什么？

How can you do that ?

你怎么能这么做呢？

And then, hope that other people do the same.

然后，希望其他人也这样做。

And, the complex system is an emergent property of all the decisions that each of us make.

而且，复杂系统是我们每个人做出的所有决策的一个自然属性。

If we all made different decisions, the system would work differently.

如果我们都做出不同的决定，系统的运作方式就会不同。

I understand a lot of people are not going to make those decisions.

我知道很多人不会做出这些决定。

Doesn't mean you shouldn't.

并不意味着你不应该。

And so, I think there is some appeal to complexity here that is also an exculpatory account: that things are so complicated that if I can't be pure, I might as well be fully impure.

因此，我认为这里对复杂性有一定的吸引力，这也是一种开脱的解释：事情是如此复杂，如果我不能纯洁，我也可能完全不纯洁。

What are you going to do?

你要做什么？

And, I don't think you have to.

而且，我认为你不必这样做。

Russ Roberts: I think the challenge is, for most of us, is that you have an opportunity.

拉斯·罗伯茨：我认为对于我们大多数人来说，挑战在于你有机会。

It is a mixed bag, perhaps, in its impact on the world, but you rationalize it to yourself, saying, 'Well, I won't do the worst things that I could do in that job.

也许，就其对世界的影响而言，这是一个复杂的问题，但你对自己进行合理化，说：‘好吧，我不会做那份工作中我能做的最糟糕的事情。

In fact, I'll go the other direction.

事实上，我会走向另一个方向。

I'll be ethical--fill in the blank.'

我会讲道德——填补空白。

Of course, the incentives are very strong.

当然，激励措施非常强大。

The incentives are for you to--I'm going to move away from a brand manager at Philip Morris.

激励措施是让你——我将辞去菲利普莫里斯公司的品牌经理职务。

Let's just take somebody who runs a social media account, which is incentivized to get attention and eyeballs and clicks.

让我们以一个运营社交媒体帐户的人为例，该帐户被激励以获得关注、眼球和点击。

And so, you shade the headline in a way that makes it angrier, crueler, less honest; and eventually you convince yourself that that's not a big deal because we need people to read our publication and so on.

因此，你用一种让标题更愤怒、更残酷、更不诚实的方式来掩盖它；最终你说服自己这没什么大不了的，因为我们需要人们阅读我们的出版物等等。

So, I think that's the challenge in most settings where we find these issues.

因此，我认为这是我们发现这些问题的大多数环境中面临的挑战。

The incentives are designed to push you toward--not evil, but not good.

这些激励措施旨在推动你走向——不是邪恶，而是善良。

And, your point, I want you to elaborate a little more because we just barely touched on it, is that: Well, isn't it normal to follow incentives?

而且，我希望你能详细阐述一下你的观点，因为我们几乎没有触及它：嗯，遵循激励措施不是很正常吗？

In fact, isn't even rational to follow those incentives?

事实上，遵循这些激励措施难道不是理性的吗？

Why would you expect me to do anything different?

你为什么期望我做一些不同的事情？

Adam Mastroianni: I think because a key part of human development, I think, is figuring out what's right, what's wrong, and how you personally can increase the right and decrease the wrong, to develop a value system that--this feels to me like part and parcel of the development of secondary sexual characteristics in adolescence.

亚当·马斯楚安尼：我认为，因为人类发展的一个关键部分是弄清楚什么是对的，什么是错的，以及你个人如何能够增加正确的，减少错误的，以发展一个价值体系——在我看来，这就像青春期第二性征发展的重要组成部分。

Like, that happens.

就像，这种事发生了。

And meanwhile, you are also trying to do this thing.

同时，你也在努力做这件事。

Like, this is part of the human mission as you go through life, is to figure out: How do I slot into things?

就像，这是人类一生使命的一部分，就是弄清楚：我如何融入事物？

Where can I help?

我可以在哪里提供帮助？

What's going wrong?

出了什么问题？

How can I help something go right?

我怎样才能帮助事情顺利进行？

And, I think if you don't do that, if you outsource that process to a bureaucracy, to an incentive structure, to the ambient norms of the culture around you, I think you have declined a key quest of human existence.

而且，我认为，如果你不这样做，如果你把这个过程外包给官僚机构、激励结构、你周围文化的环境规范，我认为你已经拒绝了人类生存的关键追求。

And, to me, that's just loser behavior.

而且，对我来说，这只是失败者的行为。

That is just allowing someone else to colonize your value system in such a way that you are giving up this key part of your identity.

这只是允许其他人以一种方式殖民你的价值体系，从而让你放弃你身份的这个关键部分。

And, maybe that's kind of extreme, but I think it is far more extreme to go, like, 'Why do I have to think about anything?

而且，也许这有点极端，但我认为，‘为什么我必须考虑任何事情？

Why can't I just do what gets rewarded?' And, I think if you do what gets rewarded, you can start as amoral, and you can end up being deputized for the immoral.

为什么我不能只做能得到奖励的事情呢？而且，我认为，如果你做了得到奖励的事情，你可能会开始不道德，最终可能会被代理为不道德的人。

Which I think is where a lot of people end up.

我认为这就是很多人最终的结局。

I think there are few villains.

我认为坏人很少。

There are many people who don't have a strong sense of right and wrong, and that can be turned into an army by the villains.

有很多人是非观念不强，就可以被小人变成军队。

Russ Roberts: So, when we think about how to make the world a better place--writ large in terms of public policy--the economist is arguing we need a better incentive structure, typically.

拉斯·罗伯茨：因此，当我们思考如何让世界变得更美好时（尤其是在公共政策方面），经济学家通常认为我们需要更好的激励结构。

Are you suggesting we should be encouraging people to be more moral, and that's the way we can make the world a better place?

您是否建议我们应该鼓励人们变得更有道德，这样我们才能让世界变得更美好？

Adam Mastroianni: Yeah.

亚当·马斯楚安尼：是的。

I don't know if it really works in the sense that, like--like, the surgeon general issuing a warning against smoking, someone else in the government issues a dictat that we should all be moral.

我不知道这是否真的有效，就像卫生部长发出反对吸烟的警告一样，政府中的其他人也发出了我们都应该道德的命令。

I don't think that is the way that people become more this way.

我不认为这就是人们变得更加这样的方式。

My own part of it is trying to write a blog post that I think gives people a useful metaphor for thinking about it.

我自己的部分是尝试写一篇博客文章，我认为它为人们思考它提供了一个有用的比喻。

I think it's something that we should expect of ourselves and encouraging other people.

我认为这是我们应该对自己有期望并鼓励他人的事情。

I don't think it's the kind of thing that can be centrally organized and required and mandated and cultivated.

我不认为这是可以集中组织、要求、强制和培养的事情。

Often, when governments try to do this, it turns dark quickly.

通常，当政府试图这样做时，情况很快就会变暗。

But, I think the goal is to produce the kind of person who would do the right thing even when it is inconvenient, and even when it is much more than inconvenient--even when it could cost you dearly.

但是，我认为我们的目标是培养出这样的人，即使在不方便的情况下，甚至在不方便的情况下，也会做正确的事情，即使这可能会让你付出高昂的代价。

Russ Roberts: Yeah.

拉斯·罗伯茨：是的。

I have faced a number of ethical challenges in my life.

我一生中遇到过许多道德挑战。

I'd love to brag about them on air, but I won't because they'll sound self-serving and embarrassing.

我很想在广播中吹嘘他们，但我不会，因为他们听起来很自私而且令人尴尬。

And I'm sure there are times when I have implicitly made a choice to do something that maybe wasn't so honorable or ethical because it was pleasant, and I rationalized it as not really bad for the world, but good for me and the world.

我确信有时我会含蓄地做出一些可能不那么光荣或不道德的选择，因为它很令人愉快，我将其合理化为对世界来说并不是真的坏，而是对我和世界有好处。

Russ Roberts: So, let me indict my profession for a minute.

拉斯·罗伯茨：那么，让我稍微控诉一下我的职业。

I think one of the downsides of economic education is to convince people that what is self-interested is good for the world.

我认为经济教育的缺点之一是让人们相信利己主义对世界有利。

Now, there is an aspect of economics where the pursuit of self-interest is good for the world.

现在，经济学的一个方面是，追求自身利益对世界有利。

So, if I own a restaurant and I make great food at good prices and I treat my customers well, I'm going to make good profits.

因此，如果我拥有一家餐馆，并且我以优惠的价格制作美味的食物，并且善待我的顾客，我将获得丰厚的利润。

And, that's where there's an alignment, we hope, between self-interest and public interest, and the public good.

我们希望，这就是自身利益与公共利益以及公共利益之间的一致性。

But, it doesn't always have to be the case.

但是，情况并不总是如此。

And, I think a lot of mediocre education trains people to think that if it's rational, it must be good.

而且，我认为很多平庸的教育训练人们认为，如果它是理性的，它一定是好的。

I once taught a class online to a group of high school students.

我曾经给一群高中生网上授课。

Mercifully, I've forgotten the name of the high school.

幸运的是，我忘记了高中的名字。

But I asked them whether you should keep a wallet that you find in the street if no one sees you.

但我问他们，如果没有人看到你，你是否应该保留在街上找到的钱包。

So, you discover a wallet, and it's got a lot of money in it, and no one's around, and so, should you keep the money or try to return the wallet?

那么，你发现了一个钱包，里面有很多钱，而且周围没有人，那么你应该保留钱还是尝试归还钱包？

And, they all said, keep the money.

而且，他们都说，留着钱。

And, I said, 'What?!' And, they said, 'Well, because that's rational.' I thought, 'Wow, rational does not mean true and right.' And, that's really the point of your piece.

我说，‘什么？！’他们说，“好吧，因为这是合理的。”我想，“哇，理性并不意味着真实和正确。”而且，这确实是你作品的重点。

Adam Mastroianni: Yeah.

亚当·马斯楚安尼：是的。

And, I think sometimes doing the right thing should make you feel crazy because it requires you to do things that everyone else thinks is a bad idea.

而且，我认为有时做正确的事情会让你感到疯狂，因为它要求你做其他人认为是坏主意的事情。

But, I think beyond the sense of craziness, there's a sense of clarity.

但是，我认为除了疯狂的感觉之外，还有一种清晰的感觉。

That, I, too, have had plenty of ethical lapses and some triumphs in my life that I won't brag about.

在我的生活中，我也有过很多道德上的失误和一些我不会吹嘘的胜利。

And so, instead, I'll put it on someone else.

所以，我会把它交给别人。

I read this account, this interview with monks living in a traditional monastery, and they go, 'Our life is very easy because we just do whatever God wants.

我读了这篇报道，采访了生活在传统修道院里的僧侣，他们说，‘我们的生活很轻松，因为我们只是做上帝想要做的事情。

And, as long as we do that, we know we're fine.' And, I'm sure that I don't share a lot of values with the monks.

而且，只要我们这样做，我们就知道我们没问题。而且，我确信我与僧侣们没有太多共同的价值观。

We probably have disagreements about what God wants and doesn't want.

对于神想要什么和不想要什么，我们可能存在分歧。

However, there is something about that feeling that I think is worth reflecting on, which is: What if life actually was much easier?

然而，我认为这种感觉中有一些值得反思的地方，那就是：如果生活实际上更轻松怎么办？

And: What if you just decided that you were going to do the right thing as best as you can figure it out in any situation?

并且：如果您决定在任何情况下都尽您所能地做正确的事情怎么办？

Whenever I've been able to inhabit that mindset, there is this sense of very deep freedom that comes with it of, like, 'Oh, I don't have to pretend or lie anymore.

每当我能够拥有这种心态时，就会有一种非常深刻的自由感随之而来，就像，‘哦，我不必再假装或撒谎了。

I don't have to try to construct elaborate justifications for why the thing that's best for me is also the right thing to do.' I give up on all of that.

我不必试图构建复杂的理由来解释为什么对我来说最好的事情也是正确的事情。我放弃这一切。

And, instead, I try to make my peace with the consequences of whatever it was I did.

相反，我尝试坦然接受我所做的一切所带来的后果。

I could tell a very silly version of this where the stakes felt very large to me, but would seem very low to anybody else.

我可以说出一个非常愚蠢的版本，其中对我来说风险很大，但对其他人来说似乎风险很小。

When I was on the academic job market and giving job talks, I was at this point in my thinking about psychology that we've talked about in previous conversations, where I just don't think the future of psychology is doing more of the kind of thing that I did.

当我在学术就业市场上进行工作演讲时，我正在思考我们在之前的谈话中讨论过的心理学，我只是认为心理学的未来不会做更多我所做的事情。

Even though I thought my dissertation was good; I'm still proud of it.

尽管我认为我的论文很好；我仍然为此感到自豪。

I think it holds up, but I don't want to spend my career doing another hundred of those.

我认为它是成立的，但我不想把我的职业生涯花在做另外一百个这样的事情上。

I don't think that is going to unlock a paradigmatic version of psychology.

我不认为这会解开心理学的范式。

I don't think that's the future.

我不认为那是未来。

I think we need to do something very different.

我认为我们需要做一些非常不同的事情。

And, it would have been really convenient for me in giving my job talks to pretend I had never had any of these thoughts at all.

而且，如果我在工作演讲中假装自己从未有过这些想法，那会非常方便。

And, I'm going to continue to produce these high-prestige publications.

而且，我将继续出版这些享有盛誉的出版物。

Just hire me and give me a shot and pay me a lot of money and the machine will keep running.

只要雇用我，给我一次机会，付给我很多钱，机器就会继续运转。

And, I just decided, the day of giving my job talk at the place I wanted to be the most, I wasn't going to lie at all about anything.

而且，我刚刚决定，在我最想去的地方进行工作演讲的那天，我不会在任何事情上撒谎。

I was going to talk about my dissertation and then append it with this thing at the end where I'm like, 'By the way, I just think the future of our field is way weirder.

我本来打算谈谈我的论文，然后在最后加上这个东西，我想，‘顺便说一句，我只是认为我们领域的未来要奇怪得多。

Here's what it could look like.

它可能是这样的。

Here's how I want to do it.

我想这样做。

I think we could have a paradigm.

我认为我们可以有一个范例。

I think we could do it in our lifetimes.

我想我们有生之年就能做到。

And, the work I showed you, I like it.

而且，我给你看的作品，我很喜欢。

I think it's cool, but I don't want to do more of it.'

我认为这很酷，但我不想再做更多了。”

Russ Roberts: They started applauding wildly, and they carried you out of the room on their shoulders, and they all said, 'We're with you.

拉斯·罗伯茨：他们开始热烈鼓掌，然后把你扛在肩上走出房间，他们都说，‘我们和你在一起。

Where are you headed?

你要去哪里？

We'll follow.'

我们会跟随。

Adam Mastroianni: Yeah.

亚当·马斯楚安尼：是的。

You're the president of the university now.

你现在是大学校长了。

No, what happened was privately, in every conversation I had, people said, 'I think this is cool.

不，发生的事情是私下的，在我的每一次谈话中，人们都说，‘我认为这很酷。

I don't know what other people think.' And, I never met the person who thought it was uncool.

我不知道其他人怎么想。而且，我从来没有遇到过认为这不酷的人。

They never identified themselves.

他们从未表明自己的身份。

And, obviously, they didn't give me the job.

显然，他们没有给我这份工作。

That would have been insane for them to give me the job.

如果他们给我这份工作，那就太疯狂了。

And, that was one of the most frightening days of my life.

那是我一生中最可怕的日子之一。

It was also the day that I felt the most powerful, because I felt like I've decided to tell the truth, and I'm already dead.

这也是我感觉最强大的一天，因为我感觉我已经决定说实话，而我已经死了。

They can't kill me more.

他们不能再杀我了。

And, I had this experience of talking to all these people who had this job that I supposedly wanted so bad, but it felt to me like I was free and they were in prison.

而且，我有过这样的经历：与所有拥有这份我非常想要的工作的人交谈，但对我来说，我感觉我是自由的，而他们却在监狱里。

That they couldn't say the things that I had said, and they couldn't do the things that I wanted to do because they decided--and maybe that was the right choice for them, that's not to indict them, But it made me feel, in a perverse way, very free--not perverse--in a paradoxical way, very free and powerful.

他们不能说我说过的话，他们不能做我想做的事情，因为他们决定了——也许这对他们来说是正确的选择，这不是起诉他们，但这让我感到，以一种反常的方式，非常自由——而不是反常——以一种矛盾的方式，非常自由和强大。

Even though the consequence was I did not have a job, but it felt like I didn't have a job for exactly the right reasons.

尽管结果是我没有工作，但感觉我没有工作是出于完全正确的原因。

And so, in that moment, I felt a little bit of the same freedom that I think the monks had, which is just, yeah, what if you just give yourself over to doing the thing you think is right and then try to make your peace with the world that results from that?

所以，在那一刻，我感受到了一点和僧侣们所拥有的相同的自由，那就是，是的，如果你只是让自己去做你认为正确的事情，然后尝试与由此产生的世界和平相处，会怎么样？

Which, it's so much easier.

哪一个，这容易多了。

Russ Roberts: Man, I love that.

拉斯·罗伯茨：伙计，我喜欢这个。

You can be hungry, though, and you can fail to feed your family.

但是，您可能会感到饥饿，并且可能无法养活家人。

So, it's not quite so straightforward.

所以，事情并不那么简单。

And I want to just say, for the economists who understand these things: obviously, when you do a cost benefit analysis, you try to do what's rational, you could include the good feelings you get from doing the right thing.

我只想说，对于了解这些事情的经济学家来说：显然，当你进行成本效益分析时，你会尝试做理性的事情，你可以包括从做正确的事情中获得的良好感觉。

We're talking here about really forfeiting monetary or direct benefit to yourself in return for doing the right thing.

我们在这里讨论的是，为了换取做正确的事情而真正放弃金钱或直接利益。

And, that's sometimes really hard; and you don't want to just make it completely tautological and say, well, obviously people who do the right thing are rational because they get the satisfaction from returning the wallet.

而且，有时这真的很难；你不想让它完全同义反复，然后说，显然，做正确事情的人是理性的，因为他们从归还钱包中获得了满足。

And, some people do, but some people would rather have the money.

而且，有些人愿意，但有些人宁愿有钱。

And, ethics and morality are about returning the money even when you want it and you don't feel good about it, that you had to give it back, but you did think it was the right thing to do.

而且，伦理和道德是归还钱，即使你想要它，但你感觉不舒服，你必须归还它，但你确实认为这是正确的事情。

Russ Roberts: Let's talk about your career for a second because that'll get us to another important idea in this piece, which is the big fish.

拉斯·罗伯茨：让我们先谈谈你的职业生涯，因为这会让我们想到这篇文章中的另一个重要想法，那就是大鱼。

What's the big fish, and what happens when you see it, and what happened to you?

什么是大鱼，当你看到它时会发生什么，你又发生了什么？

When did you see it?

你什么时候看到的？

Adam Mastroianni: The big fish is this idea that comes from H.P.

Adam Mastroianni：最大的鱼是来自 H.P. 的这个想法。

Lovecraft, which--I read a collection of his short stories, which I don't really recommend.

洛夫克拉夫特，我读过他的短篇小说集，但我不太推荐。

I feel like he walked so that later horror writers could run.

我觉得他走路是为了让后来的恐怖作家可以奔跑。

But, I was interested, and I just kept realizing, oh, every story is kind of the same.

但是，我很感兴趣，而且我一直意识到，哦，每个故事都是一样的。

Every story is about a guy who sees something that is so freaky that he goes insane.

每个故事都是关于一个人看到一些奇怪的东西而发疯的。

And, one of the earliest stories is called "Dagon." It's about a guy who gets lost at sea, and he sees a fish god or a fish demon that is so--apparently, so grotesque that he's not right for the rest of his life, and he ends up throwing himself out of a window.

而且，最早的故事之一叫做“达贡”。这是关于一个在海上迷路的人，他看到了一个鱼神或一个鱼妖，这显然是非常怪诞的，以至于他的余生都不适合，最后他从窗户跳了下去。

And, I thought, as I read this, that this is a useful metaphor because I think that deep inside everyone's psyche is this fish that, if you see it, you will go insane because, if you really take it seriously, you will have to upend everything about your life.

而且，当我读到这篇文章时，我认为这是一个有用的比喻，因为我认为每个人的心灵深处都有这条鱼，如果你看到它，你就会发疯，因为如果你真的认真对待它，你将不得不颠覆你生活中的一切。

This is some unexamined assumption, some belief that you have.

这是一些未经检验的假设，一些你所拥有的信念。

This is basically opening the door and seeing the kid in Omelas.

这基本上就是打开门并看到奥梅拉斯的孩子。

It is realizing that that's the situation that you're in.

它是意识到这就是你所处的情况。

And, I had a situation like this.

而且，我也遇到过这样的情况。

Not so dramatic, but in 2020, just before the pandemic really hit in the United States--it was like the last chance for anyone to have a conference--I was at the annual social psychology conference in San Francisco [SF].

没有那么戏剧性，但在 2020 年，就在大流行真正袭击美国之前——这就像任何人参加会议的最后机会——我参加了在旧金山 [SF] 举行的年度社会心理学会议。

Social psychology, as I'm sure most people know, very concerned with social justice.

我相信大多数人都知道，社会心理学非常关注社会正义。

How do we improve the world?

我们如何改善世界？

How do we help people get along?

我们如何帮助人们相处？

How do we overcome prejudice?

我们如何克服偏见？

And, all that seemed totally normal to me until that year, when the conference hotel was in the middle of the Tenderloin in SF, which is, I think, maybe a little better now, but at the time was just really a site of human misery.

而且，所有这一切对我来说都是完全正常的，直到那一年，当时会议酒店位于旧金山的田德隆区中部，我想，现在可能好一点了，但当时确实是一个人类苦难的地方。

People dying of overdoses on the street.

人们在街上因吸毒过量而死亡。

It felt post-apocalyptic.

感觉就像是后世界末日。

And so, inside the hotel, people are eating canapés, and they're giving talks about how we might be able to reduce people's implicit bias by this tiny amount that might be noise.

因此，在酒店内，人们正在吃开胃菜，他们正在谈论我们如何能够减少人们的隐性偏见，而这种偏见可能只是噪音。

And outside of the hotel, people are doubled over, their veins full of fentanyl.

酒店外，人们弯着腰，血管里充满了芬太尼。

And, it just seemed like, I don't know if we are taking these problems seriously.

而且，我似乎不知道我们是否认真对待这些问题。

It really seems like what we're doing inside the hotel is burnishing our CVs [curriculum vitae], and we are pretending that all of this will ultimately lead to the resolutions of the problems outside.

看起来我们在酒店里所做的事情确实是在美化我们的简历，而我们假装所有这一切最终都会导致外面问题的解决。

And, I'm just really not sure.

而且，我真的不确定。

I do think that the problems in the Tenderloin in SF can be solved through increasing our knowledge.

我确实认为SF里里脊肉的问题可以通过增加我们的知识来解决。

I don't think we know how to solve the problems quite yet.

我认为我们还不知道如何解决这些问题。

And, even if we do know the right solutions, we don't know how to convince people to take them up.

而且，即使我们确实知道正确的解决方案，我们也不知道如何说服人们接受它们。

But, I don't think the kind of research going on inside the hotel was ultimately going to lead us there.

但是，我认为酒店内部进行的那种研究最终不会引导我们到达那里。

And this was a moment of crisis for me, where I was, like, what does it mean to participate in this field where we are, I think, somewhat pretending to be really concerned about some of these social problems while ignoring the ones?

这对我来说是一个危机时刻，我想，参与这个领域意味着什么？我认为，我们假装真正关心其中一些社会问题，但却忽视了这些问题？

And, there's especially this moment where I realize, like, oh, people are hustling by people in need to give lectures about social justice, which is one of the classic findings from social psychology.

而且，特别是在这一刻，我意识到，就像，哦，人们正在被有需要的人催促，进行有关社会正义的讲座，这是社会心理学的经典发现之一。

There is a study from the 1970s where they get a bunch of seminary students, and they either assign them to give a neutral lecture about career opportunities or a lecture about the Good Samaritan, which is a biblical story about stopping to help someone in need.

有一项 20 世纪 70 年代的研究，他们找了一群神学院的学生，让他们要么做一个关于职业机会的中立讲座，要么做一个关于好撒玛利亚人的讲座，这是一个关于停下来帮助有需要的人的圣经故事。

And so, they're randomized on that dimension.

因此，它们在该维度上是随机的。

And, they're also randomized in terms of whether they're told that they're late to give their lecture or whether they're on time or early.

而且，他们也会被随机分配，无论他们是否被告知他们上课迟到，或者他们是否准时或提前。

And, this is an old study, so take all the findings with a grain of salt.

而且，这是一项古老的研究，因此对所有研究结果持保留态度。

But, what they find is that it doesn't matter what lecture they were assigned to give.

但是，他们发现，分配给他们讲什么讲座并不重要。

It only matters whether they were hurrying or not.

重要的只是他们赶不赶。

If they think they're late, they rush past.

如果他们认为自己迟到了，他们就会冲过去。

On the way, they see this guy who is slumped over.

路上，他们看到了这个倒在地上的家伙。

He's part of the study.

他是这项研究的一部分。

They don't know that.

他们不知道这一点。

And, the thing that's being measured is just: do you stop and check on this guy or not?

而且，正在衡量的只是：你是否停下来检查这个人？

And, all that matters is: did you think you were late to give your lecture, not what you're lecturing about?

而且，重要的是：您是否认为您演讲迟到了，而不是您讲课的内容？

So, there are these people who are about to go and lecture about how we should stop to help those in need, who just did not stop to help this guy in need because they thought they were five minutes late for their talk.

所以，有些人正准备去演讲，告诉我们应该如何停下来帮助那些有需要的人，但他们只是没有停下来帮助这个有需要的人，因为他们认为自己的演讲迟到了五分钟。

And so, given the fact that one of the most famous findings in social psychology--everybody inside the hotel knows it--but none of us even feel conflicted about it.

因此，考虑到社会心理学中最著名的发现之一——酒店里的每个人都知道这一事实——但我们中没有人对此感到矛盾。

I don't even know what the right thing to do is.

我什至不知道什么是正确的做法。

Obviously, we're not going to be able to solve the homelessness and drug crisis in SF just on our way to the hotel.

显然，我们无法在去酒店的路上解决旧金山的无家可归和毒品危机。

But, the fact that it did not even seem to be on our minds was the version of the fish that I saw.

但是，事实上，我们似乎根本没有想到这就是我所看到的鱼的版本。

Russ Roberts: If you want to really indulge in an absurd science fiction fantasy that would make a movie that would never be made because it would be not just implausible, but, for a hundred reasons--imagine if, like in your job talk, you had tried to mobilize the people inside the building to help the people outside.

拉斯·罗伯茨：如果你真的想沉迷于荒谬的科幻幻想，这将拍出一部永远不会被拍成的电影，因为它不仅令人难以置信，而且出于一百个原因 - 想象一下，如果像你的工作演讲一样，你试图动员大楼内的人来帮助外面的人。

And, you'd walk into a presentation of a keynote where there might be 250 people listening to a very renowned academic, and you'd say, 'Excuse me.

而且，当你走进一场主题演讲时，可能有 250 人在听一位非常著名的学者的演讲，你会说，‘对不起。

I'm sure we've all seen the folks out there.

我相信我们都见过那里的人。

Of course, we can't solve that problem overnight, but I've decided at least we should spend our three days here together--let's break up into different groups.

当然，我们不可能一夜之间解决这个问题，但我决定至少我们应该在这里一起度过三天——让我们分成不同的小组。

We'll have some--one group that'll work on this and another group on that.

我们将有一些人——一个小组负责这个工作，另一个小组负责那个工作。

Who is with me?' And, the answer is, 'Could the security people come here and take care of this man?' Because we have work to do.

谁和我在一起？答案是，“保安人员可以来这里照顾这个人吗？”因为我们还有工作要做。

We have our papers to present and our CVs to burnish.

我们有论文要展示，我们的简历要打磨。

It's kind of dispiriting.

这有点令人沮丧。

But, the example you give in the book, besides your own story--and by the way, I'm happy to see you're in an apartment.

但是，除了你自己的故事之外，你在书中给出的例子——顺便说一句，我很高兴看到你在公寓里。

You have not made this sacrifice of--you've made some kind of sacrifices academically, but you do have a roof over your head.

你并没有做出这种牺牲——你在学术上做出了某种牺牲，但你确实有一个栖身之所。

Russ Roberts: I'm glad the world is such that Substack and other things allow you to do that.

Russ Roberts：我很高兴这个世界是这样的，Substack 和其他东西可以让你做到这一点。

Russ Roberts: But, you talk about Charles Sumner.

拉斯·罗伯茨：但是，你谈论的是查尔斯·萨姆纳。

So, tell the story.

那么，讲故事吧。

Charles Sumner is a phenomenally fantastic example of this.

查尔斯·萨姆纳（Charles Sumner）就是一个非常出色的例子。

And then, I want to turn after that, and we'll talk about what we might call conversion of people when their world gets flipped on its head.

然后，我想在此之后，我们将讨论当人们的世界发生翻天覆地变化时，我们可以称之为人们的转变。

Adam Mastroianni: Yeah.

亚当·马斯楚安尼：是的。

So, Charles Sumner--I've really first started thinking about him because there was a statue of him that I would pass most days on my way to the department.

所以，查尔斯·萨姆纳（Charles Sumner）——我真的第一次开始想到他，是因为我去部门的路上大部分时间都会经过他的雕像。

And, I kind of knew this story--

而且，我好像知道这个故事——

Russ Roberts: When you were in graduate school?

拉斯·罗伯茨：你在读研究生的时候？

Adam Mastroianni: When I was in graduate school.

Adam Mastroianni：当我在读研究生时。

Yeah.

是的。

I kind of knew the story of, at some point pre-Civil War, there was a senator, and another congressman beat him nearly to death with a cane.

我大概知道这样一个故事：在内战前的某个时候，有一位参议员，另一位国会议员用拐杖把他打得差点儿死。

And, I understood that that was this guy.

而且，我明白那就是这个人。

And so, I always felt a little moved walking by the statue that was basically ignored.

所以，当我走过这座基本上被忽视的雕像时，我总是感到有点感动。

No one really paid any attention to it.

没有人真正关注它。

But I looked into his story, and there's a lot more to it than that one violent incident.

但我调查了他的故事，发现其中的内容远不止那一次暴力事件。

He's a kid born in Massachusetts before the Civil War.

他是一个内战前出生在马萨诸塞州的孩子。

He grows up poor, even though his family has previously been in a higher socioeconomic strata.

他出身贫寒，尽管他的家庭此前曾处于较高的社会经济阶层。

His dad is an illegitimate son, and so he's on hard times.

他的父亲是个私生子，所以他的日子很不好过。

He grows up in a part of Boston at the time which is home to a large population of formerly enslaved people.

他在波士顿的一个地区长大，那里居住着大量曾经被奴役的人。

So, he's growing up next to African Americans.

所以，他是在非裔美国人旁边长大的。

I don't think we know a lot about that part of his life, but certainly there's an experience here that most people don't have.

我认为我们对他生活的这一部分了解不多，但肯定有大多数人没有的经历。

At one point, he goes to France, and he sees at the University of the Sorbonne white and black students studying together as equals, and he writes in his diary at the time.

有一次，他去了法国，在索邦大学看到白人和黑人学生平等地学习，他在当时的日记中写道。

He says, 'Okay, so clearly the difference between people cannot be because of their nature.

他说，‘好吧，很明显，人与人之间的差异不可能是因为他们的本性。

It must be because of their education.

这一定是因为他们的教育。

Because clearly it is possible for white and black people to be equals.'

因为显然白人和黑人有可能平等。

He becomes an outspoken abolitionist and taking positions that were seen by people--it's crazy at the time.

他成为了一个直言不讳的废奴主义者，并采取了人们所看到的立场——这在当时是疯狂的。

Like, these won't become common-sense positions for another hundred years, 150 years.

比如说，这些在接下来的一百年、一百五十年里都不会成为常识性的立场。

Not only the abolition of slavery, but racially integrated schools, black suffrage.

不仅废除奴隶制，还废除种族融合学校和黑人选举权。

These are things that even the people who are, like, 'We can agree with you on slavery, but let's go slow.' He's extremely provocative.

这些事情甚至连那些“我们可以同意你关于奴隶制的观点，但让我们慢慢来”的人也是如此。他非常具有挑衅性。

He becomes a politician, a senator; and it is in one of these moments where he's delivering a very fiery anti-slavery speech, indicting various congressmen from the South, that a couple of days later, one of these congressmen, who has taken a lot of umbrage at this speech, approaches him sitting at his desk and just starts beating him with a cane.

他成为一名政治家、一名参议员；正是在这样的时刻，他发表了一场非常激烈的反奴隶制演讲，起诉了来自南方的多位国会议员，几天后，其中一位对这次演讲非常不满的国会议员走到坐在办公桌前的他，开始用拐杖殴打他。

Nearly kills him.

差点杀了他。

He's trapped in his desk.

他被困在办公桌里了。

He's in a pool of his own blood.

他已经倒在自己的血泊里了。

Takes him more than a year to recover.

他花了一年多的时间才康复。

But, when he does, he just goes right back at it.

但是，当他这样做时，他就会立即回去。

He goes back to being a provocateur.

他又变回了挑衅者。

He pushes Lincoln to do the Emancipation Proclamation two years before it actually happens, at a time when people think it's an insane thing to do.

他敦促林肯在《解放黑奴宣言》真正实施的两年前就颁布该宣言，而当时人们认为这是一件疯狂的事情。

And I just look at this guy as, like, just kind of what it looks like to do the right thing no matter the cost.

我只是认为这个人就是那种无论付出什么代价都会做正确的事情的人。

But, like, it is very hard to almost die and then come back and keep doing it.

但是，就像，几乎死了然后回来继续这样做是非常困难的。

Not that he was right on every single thing.

并不是说他在每件事上都是正确的。

He doesn't seem to have had a lot of desire for women's suffrage or women's rights.

他似乎对妇女选举权或妇女权利没有太多渴望。

But whatever: this is very far--not 'whatever'--but this is very far in the past.

但无论如何：这已经是很遥远的事了——不是“无论如何”——但这已经是很久远的过去了。

And, in one sense, he's looking very far in the future.

而且，从某种意义上说，他着眼于非常遥远的未来。

A lot of the legislation he tries to write, a lot of the arguments that he makes, are defeated or at least watered down at the time, only to reappear in Brown v.

他试图撰写的许多立法，他提出的许多论点，都在当时被否决或至少被淡化，只是在《布朗诉特朗普案》中重新出现。

Board of Education .

教育委员会。

So, I read--his newest biographer says that in the brief for Brown v.

所以，我读到，他的最新传记作者在布朗诉布朗案的摘要中这样说。

Board , Sumner is cited 40 times.

萨姆纳在董事会被引用了 40 次。

That this guy is laying some of the intellectual groundwork for this case that he has no idea is ever going to happen when he dies.

这家伙正在为这个案件奠定一些智力基础，但他不知道在他死后会发生什么。

The Civil Rights Act of 1965 includes some of the things that he tried to get past a hundred years before that.

1965 年的《民权法案》包含了一百年前他试图克服的一些问题。

And, I don't know.

而且，我不知道。

So, when I pass by that statue now, which is much less often, I just get this feeling of, like: This is the kind of person I want to be.

所以，当我现在经过那座雕像时（这种情况很少见），我就会有这样的感觉：这就是我想成为的人。

Not point for point, but the kind of bravery that I aspire to have.

不是逐点的，而是我渴望拥有的那种勇敢。

Like, what must it be to be the target of an assassination attempt and go, 'I'm just going to keep doing the right thing'?

比如，成为暗杀企图的目标并说“我只是要继续做正确的事”必须是什么？

Russ Roberts: Yeah.

拉斯·罗伯茨：是的。

The image, which I love, of him standing on the threshold of a classroom and seeing this puzzling--must have been bewildering--picture of blacks and whites studying together was his fish.

我喜欢他站在教室门口看到这张令人费解的——一定是令人困惑的——黑人和白人一起学习的照片，这就是他的鱼。

This is what you say in the book.

这是你书上说的。

That's his big fish.

那是他的大鱼。

It won't let him sleep at night anymore and forces him to reckon with a whole set of views that he's holding at the time and to throw them away.

这让他晚上睡不着觉，迫使他必须正视自己当时持有的一整套观点，并把它们扔掉。

And, instead of just saying, 'Huh,' and moving along--which is the person coming into the conference past the homeless drug addict: 'Huh.

而且，不是只是说“嗯”然后继续前进——而是进入会议的人经过无家可归的吸毒者：“嗯。”

Okay.'

好的。'

I spend time thinking about how to educate people about all kinds of different things.

我花时间思考如何教育人们了解各种不同的事情。

And, we don't have a very good theory of how to inculcate the, quote, "right thing." Religion is one way to do it.

而且，我们还没有一个很好的理论来指导如何灌输“正确的事情”。宗教是实现这一目标的一种方式。

It doesn't always work.

它并不总是有效。

Not all religious training creates good people, although I think most of the time it often does.

并不是所有的宗教训练都能造就好人，尽管我认为大多数时候它经常能造就好人。

Obviously, there's problems with religion writ large, so I wouldn't overstate the case for religion, but a combination of parenting with some sort of value system usually either creates children that are like you--or children who hate you and are going to do the opposite thing.

显然，宗教存在明显的问题，所以我不会夸大宗教的情况，但是养育方式与某种价值体系的结合通常要么会产生像你一样的孩子，要么会产生讨厌你并会做相反事情的孩子。

But, either way, you can see a fish somewhere down the line.

但是，无论哪种方式，你都可以在下游的某个地方看到一条鱼。

So, if you're raised in a household with a particular religion or a particular ideology--Left, Right, a political ideology--and you go out into the world, most people keep the ideology they grew up with.

因此，如果你在一个有特定宗教或特定意识形态（左派、右派、政治意识形态）的家庭中长大，那么当你走向世界时，大多数人都会保留他们成长过程中所伴随的意识形态。

They stay in their religion.

他们坚守自己的宗教信仰。

And, yet, at the same time, there are people who convert.

然而，与此同时，也有人皈依。

They leave a religion, or they attach themselves deeply to the religion when they were raised without much of it; or vice versa, they leave it, the practices; or their parents are one type of political ideology and they don't want to be like their parents.

他们离开了某种宗教，或者在没有太多宗教信仰的情况下长大时，他们深深地依附于该宗教；反之亦然，他们放弃了实践；或者他们的父母是一种政治意识形态，他们不想像他们的父母一样。

But, I don't think it's merely a question of making the best arguments and studying these questions thoroughly.

但是，我认为这不仅仅是提出最佳论证和彻底研究这些问题的问题。

So, when you think about Sumner, Sumner has an epiphany.

所以，当你想到萨姆纳时，萨姆纳就会顿悟。

He sees the fish.

他看到了鱼。

He has this experience that does not sit well with his beliefs, and he adjusts them.

他的经历与他的信念不太相符，他会调整它们。

Most of the time, we don't.

大多数时候，我们不这样做。

I don't think it has anything to do--it doesn't have a lot to do with analytical thinking.

我不认为这有什么关系——它与分析思维没有太大关系。

You want to react to that claim?

您想对这一说法做出反应吗？

Do you agree with me?

你同意我的观点吗？

Adam Mastroianni: Yeah.

亚当·马斯楚安尼：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

I don't think it's necessarily something you can reason yourself into, because if you try to reason it, it's hard to sit down and think, 'All right, now I shall inspect my most deeply held beliefs and see whether they hold up or not.' You're just not going to be able to get into the basement there, to get down to the foundation.

我认为这不一定是你可以推理的事情，因为如果你试图推理，就很难坐下来思考，“好吧，现在我将检查我最坚定的信念，看看它们是否站得住脚。”你只是无法进入那里的地下室，到达地基。

Which is why I think you need some kind of inciting incident to open the door to the basement.

这就是为什么我认为你需要某种煽动事件才能打开地下室的门。

And then, the question is, do you go downstairs and take a look around and change your life depending on what you see there, or do you close the door and keep walking?

然后，问题是，你是下楼环顾四周，根据你在那里看到的东西来改变你的生活，还是关上门继续走？

That is, I think, the choice that it's given to people.

我认为，这就是它给予人们的选择。

Which is why some of the people reacting to this post have said, 'How do you find the fish?' I don't know if you can.

这就是为什么一些对这篇文章做出反应的人说，“你是怎么找到鱼的？”我不知道你是否可以。

I think the fish finds you, and you decide whether you're going to look it in the eye or not.

我认为鱼找到了你，然后你决定是否要直视它的眼睛。

Maybe I'm wrong and you can engineer this opportunity for yourself, but I actually think it requires some moment of crisis to loosen up all the assumptions and to realize, 'Oh, I might be really wrong' about something.

也许我错了，你可以为自己创造这个机会，但我实际上认为需要一些危机时刻才能放松所有假设并意识到“哦，我可能真的错了”。

And, I don't know if that can be self-instigated, and I don't know if it can come from a series of logical analyses.

而且，我不知道这是否可以是自我煽动的，我不知道它是否可以来自一系列的逻辑分析。

I think it's got to get you somewhere deeper in the gut.

我认为它必须让你深入内心深处。

Russ Roberts: Yeah.

拉斯·罗伯茨：是的。

I'd ask listeners to ask--I ask yourself the question: Have you ever changed your mind about something fundamental about your identity?

我会请听众问自己一个问题：对于有关你身份的一些基本问题，你是否曾经改变过想法？

I think most of the time the answer is no.

我想大多数时候答案是否定的。

I used to get interviewed--I don't get interviewed any more about this--but I used to get interviewed by people asking, did anything about, say, the financial crisis change your view of economics?

我曾经接受过采访——我不再接受有关此事的采访——但我曾经接受过采访，人们问我，金融危机是否改变了你对经济学的看法？

Did anything about COVID [Coronavirus Disease] change your view about X, Y, Z?

有关新冠病毒 (COVID) 的任何事情是否改变了您对 X、Y、Z 的看法？

And, on a certain level, I've been pretty consistent in my views, which I like.

而且，在某种程度上，我的观点非常一致，我喜欢这一点。

That makes me feel good.

这让我感觉很好。

I like to think that I'm a principled person.

我喜欢认为自己是一个有原则的人。

But at the same time, don't I learn from things?

但与此同时，我不是从事物中学习吗？

Doesn't the world affect me?

世界对我没有影响吗？

And, when I look deeper into my heart, I think I see things often where--it's not a radical change.

而且，当我更深入地审视自己的内心时，我想我经常看到的事情——这并不是一个根本性的变化。

It's not like you go from being pro-slavery to anti-slavery.

这并不是说你从支持奴隶制变成了反奴隶制。

But you realize that a dogmatic view that you held doesn't hold up quite as well as you thought.

但你意识到你所持有的教条主义观点并不像你想象的那么站得住脚。

Just one example, isn't too self-congratulatory.

仅举一例，并不过分沾沾自喜。

After I went on a silent meditation retreat, which was very much oriented toward being empathetic about other people, I like to think, and I might be fooling myself, that I became a little more empathetic.

在我进行了一次旨在对其他人产生同理心的静默冥想静修之后，我喜欢认为，也许我是在欺骗自己，我变得更有同理心了。

That, situations where I would be judgmental, I was more tolerant.

在我会做出评判的情况下，我会更加宽容。

And, in a way, that's kind of a really small thing.

而且，在某种程度上，这是一件非常小的事情。

But, sometimes I would think, 'Well, maybe I'm underestimating how much that affected me and how I interact with the world.' I'm not a saint.

但是，有时我会想，“好吧，也许我低估了这对我的影响以及我与世界互动的方式。”我不是圣人。

I make plenty of cruel and insensitive comments and reactions, I'm sure, despite that experience; but I do think it opened my mind to what I'm going to call, say, the bleeding heart view of the world, which is: everyone is in a battle, so be kind.

我确信，尽管有这样的经历，我还是做出了很多残酷和麻木不仁的评论和反应；但我确实认为它让我的思想打开了，我将称之为“流血的心世界观”，即：每个人都在战斗，所以要友善。

And, I think that was good.

而且，我认为那很好。

I'm proud of that.

我为此感到自豪。

I think that's a good thing.

我认为这是一件好事。

So, I don't think all of us have to undergo some kind of fundamental rejection of some deeply held view when we confront something in the world that makes us maybe be suspicious of it, but I do think it's a healthy thing to be open to it.

因此，我认为，当我们面对世界上某些可能让我们怀疑的事情时，我们所有人都不必对某些根深蒂固的观点进行某种根本性的拒绝，但我确实认为对此持开放态度是一件健康的事情。

Adam Mastroianni: Yeah.

亚当·马斯楚安尼：是的。

And, for me, part of this process has been being in a marriage.

对我来说，这个过程的一部分就是婚姻。

I don't know if this is a universal experience, but certainly for me, attempting to share my life with someone has been an opportunity to realize all of the default ways in which I am very selfish and in which I first think about what's best for me.

我不知道这是否是一种普遍的经历，但对我来说，尝试与某人分享我的生活是一个机会，让我认识到我非常自私的所有默认方式，并且我首先考虑什么对我来说是最好的。

And being married to my wife has helped me realize, probably in several key moments over the past few years of, like, 'Oh, I can think in a different way from the get-go.

与我的妻子结婚帮助我意识到，可能在过去几年的几个关键时刻，比如，‘哦，我从一开始就能以不同的方式思考。

My first reaction to things can be what's best for her or what's best for us and not what's best for me.' And, again, it's the kind of thing that sounds so obvious that I understand other people get there fast.

我对事情的第一反应可能是什么对她最好，或者什么对我们最好，而不是什么对我最好。”而且，这听起来很明显，我知道其他人很快就能做到这一点。

Some people get there slow, and I'm one of them.

有些人进展缓慢，我就是其中之一。

And, it is really hard to articulate the extent to which that feels like going into the basement.

而且，真的很难说清楚那种感觉就像进入地下室一样。

That everybody thinks they're a good person, and it takes something like that to really get into the intimate parts of yourself to realize, 'Oh, in this way, I am maybe a bad person--certainly not as good of a person as I want to be.' And, sometimes it takes an argument, like an oversight, something to open the opportunity to have that realization, because at any point anyone could be like, 'Do you think you're as good of a person as you want to be?' And, everyone goes, 'No, of course not.' But, you're never going to take it seriously until the stakes are high.

每个人都认为自己是一个好人，需要这样的事情才能真正进入自己的私密部分，才能意识到，“哦，这样看来，我可能是一个坏人——当然没有我想成为的那么好。”而且，有时需要一场争论，比如一次疏忽，才能有机会实现这一点，因为在任何时候，任何人都可能会问，“你认为你是一个像你想成为的那样优秀的人吗？”而且，每个人都会说，“不，当然不是。”但是，除非风险很大，否则你永远不会认真对待它。

If the stakes are, 'How do I live intimately with someone else?

如果问题是“我如何与别人亲密地生活？”

How do I build a life rather than build my solitude?'

我如何建立一种生活而不是建立我的孤独？

Russ Roberts: Yeah.

拉斯·罗伯茨：是的。

I've probably quoted this before, but a friend of mine, his father told him that: 'Until you get married, you're an idiot.' It's a blunt way to put the insight you're talking about.

我以前可能引用过这句话，但我的一个朋友，他的父亲告诉他：“在你结婚之前，你就是个白痴。”这是表达你所谈论的见解的一种直率的方式。

And, I don't want to suggest that all single people are idiots, but it's certainly the case that marriage forces you to step outside yourself in certain ways that's harder when you're single, don't have a person you're sharing a life with.

而且，我不想说所有单身的人都是白痴，但婚姻确实会迫使你以某些方式走出自我，当你单身时，没有一个人与你分享生活，这就更难了。

Russ Roberts: I want to say something about social circles, because I do think that when we think about these incentives--you know, Adam Smith talked a lot about how we want to be lovely and we want to be loved.

拉斯·罗伯茨：我想说一些关于社交圈的事情，因为我确实认为，当我们考虑这些激励措施时——你知道，亚当·斯密谈到了我们如何想要变得可爱，我们想要被爱。

So, we want the approval of the people around us.

所以，我们希望得到周围人的认可。

So, an underappreciated aspect of that insight is that you want to surround yourself with people whose approval you want, who are good people rather than charlatans and hoaxters and scammers, because--well, I don't know whether you do or not, but I do.

因此，这种洞察力的一个未被充分认识的方面是，你希望自己周围都是那些你想要认可的人，他们是好人，而不是江湖骗子、骗子和骗子，因为——好吧，我不知道你是否这样做，但我知道。

And, that way, the social incentives of approval and disapproval will reinforce what you want to become.

这样，认可和反对的社会激励就会强化你想成为的人。

So, that's not easy to do either, but I think it's a good thing.

所以，这也不容易做到，但我认为这是一件好事。

Adam Mastroianni: Yeah.

亚当·马斯楚安尼：是的。

Over and over in my life and in the lives of people close to me, we have been just desperately trying to get opportunities from people that we don't respect.

在我和我身边的人的生活中，我们一次又一次拼命地试图从我们不尊重的人那里获得机会。

And so, we're in this absurd position of, like, 'I think they're bad people.

所以，我们处于这种荒谬的境地，比如，‘我认为他们是坏人。

I think they're totally wrong about what's good and bad in the world.

我认为他们对于世界上的好与坏的看法是完全错误的。

I really hope they let me into their club so I can--.' So I can--what?

我真的希望他们让我进入他们的俱乐部，这样我就可以——”所以我可以——什么？

You're inevitably going to become more like them.

你不可避免地会变得更像他们。

You can't help it.

你无能为力。

That's just what happens.

这就是发生的事情。

At the same time, when the opportunities that they have are very prestigious and attractive and well remunerated, it is hard to say, 'I just so don't trust this person's judgment that even though they could shower me with success, I am going to go do something else instead.' And, I think when you're able to get there, that is that moment of freedom that I was talking about before.

与此同时，当他们拥有的机会非常有声望、有吸引力且报酬丰厚时，很难说，“我只是非常不相信这个人的判断，即使他们可以给我带来成功，我也会去做别的事情。”而且，我认为当你能够到达那里时，那就是我之前谈到的自由时刻。

That, just like, 'Oh, this person doesn't have any power over me anymore.'

就像，“哦，这个人不再对我有任何权力了。”

I used to teach negotiation to MBAs [Masters of Business Administration] and executive MBAs, and there is this lay theory of power that people have coming into that class: that, power means your ability to coerce other people to do things.

我曾经给 MBA（工商管理硕士）和 EMBA 教授谈判课程，进入该课程的人们有一种通俗的权力理论：权力意味着你强迫别人做事的能力。

And, I think that is obviously one form of power.

而且，我认为这显然是权力的一种形式。

But it's a very brittle form, because if you've ever had any of that power, you realize how imperfect it is.

但它是一种非常脆弱的形式，因为如果你曾经拥有过这种力量，你就会意识到它是多么不完美。

You can't really force other people to do things.

你不能真正强迫别人做事。

Like, okay, they might comply with your directives, but they won't do it happily.

就像，好吧，他们可能会遵守你的指令，但他们不会高兴地这样做。

They'll try to undermine you.

他们会试图破坏你。

This is why bosses and kings are always so upset all the time.

这就是为什么老板和国王总是那么心烦意乱。

You'd think they'd be happy.

你以为他们会很高兴。

They have so much power.

他们有如此大的力量。

Like: No, they're so frustrated because they're so close to having the thing that they want, but they can't actually get people to do things the way they want them to do it.

就像：不，他们非常沮丧，因为他们非常接近拥有他们想要的东西，但他们实际上无法让人们按照他们希望的方式做事。

And I think there's a different form of power which comes from the options that you have.

我认为有一种不同形式的力量来自于你所拥有的选择。

So, in negotiation, we talk about your best alternative to a negotiated agreement: that if you're negotiating a job offer and you have another good job offer, there's just nothing that this person can do to you because you just walk away and go do this other thing.

因此，在谈判中，我们谈论的是谈判协议的最佳替代方案：如果您正在谈判一份工作机会，并且您有另一个很好的工作机会，那么这个人对您无能为力，因为您只需走开并去做其他事情。

And I think having a strong internal value system is like always having a good outside option.

我认为拥有强大的内部价值体系就像总是拥有良好的外部选择一样。

That, like, yeah, people can take things from you.

是的，人们可以从你那里拿走东西。

They can put constraints on you.

他们可以对你施加限制。

You're just going to do what you want to do within whatever constraints that you have.

你只需在你所受到的任何限制下做你想做的事。

I think about, like, the artist who really wants to paint, and you take away their paints and they draw in the dirt.

我想，像那些真正想画画的艺术家，你拿走他们的颜料，他们在泥土上画画。

You take away the dirt and they draw on their mind.

你把污垢拿走，他们就会在心里画画。

They're like, that person has a kind of power that you can do a lot of bad to them and you can really make them suffer, but you can't take that from them.

他们就像，那个人有一种力量，你可以对他们做很多坏事，你真的可以让他们受苦，但你不能从他们身上夺走这种力量。

I don't think I'm that kind of person, but I aspire to be that kind of person.

我不认为我是那样的人，但我渴望成为那样的人。

I aspire to have that kind of power that resists the coercion rather than tries to broadcast it.

我渴望拥有那种抵制强制而不是试图传播强制的力量。

Russ Roberts: I'm going to quote Milton Friedman.

拉斯·罗伯茨：我要引用米尔顿·弗里德曼的话。

It's a powerful idea.

这是一个强大的想法。

It's at variance with your ideas somewhat.

跟你的想法有些出入。

"I do not believe"-- [Source unknown.

“我不相信”——[来源不明。

Might be paraphrase.--Econlib Ed.] Quote:

可能是释义。--Econlib Ed.] 引用：

Close quote.

关闭报价。

I came very close there to imitating Milton.

我非常接近于模仿弥尔顿。

There's a second there--listeners will recognize that.

还有第二个——听众会认出这一点。

But, what he's saying is: you want to make the world a better place in terms of public policy, again, he's saying: change the incentives, don't try to get the right people into office.

但是，他想说的是：你想让世界在公共政策方面变得更美好，他再说一遍：改变激励措施，不要试图让合适的人上任。

I'm very connected to people both in England and here in Israel--I'm sure it's happening in the United States--who are trying to encourage good people to go into politics and make a difference.

我与英国和以色列的人们有着非常密切的联系——我确信这也发生在美国——他们试图鼓励优秀的人进入政治并做出改变。

And, Milton Friedman would say that's a fool's errand.

而且，米尔顿·弗里德曼（Milton Friedman）会说这是一个愚蠢的差事。

When they get in, they're going to face the same incentives as the people who are there now.

当他们进入时，他们将面临与现在在那里的人相同的激励措施。

And, if they want to stay in office, they'll end up doing the same things that the people are there.

而且，如果他们想继续留在办公室，他们最终会做与那里的人相同的事情。

They'll become those people.

他们会成为那些人。

What do you think of that?

你对此有何看法？

Adam Mastroianni: I think I agree with half of it, which is that if you want to solve political problems, it isn't just a matter of electing the right people or electing good people.

Adam Mastroianni：我想我同意一半，那就是如果你想解决政治问题，这不仅仅是选举正确的人或选举好人的问题。

Also, good people have to be doing the electing.

此外，必须由好人来进行选举。

If the only good people that we have are the ones in charge, it doesn't matter.

如果我们唯一的好人是负责人，那也没关系。

They're not going to be held to the right accounts.

他们不会被记在正确的账上。

The people that they serve are not going to want them to do the right things.

他们所服务的人不会希望他们做正确的事情。

So, like, yeah, totally, I'd rather a better political climate than a worse one, but I think we have two levers that we're trying to pull, and we should pull both of them.

所以，是的，完全地，我宁愿有更好的政治气候，也不愿有更糟糕的政治气候，但我认为我们有两个我们正在努力拉动的杠杆，我们应该同时拉动它们。

One is: how can we make the systems better such that they reward the right kinds of behavior?

一是：我们如何才能使系统变得更好，以便奖励正确的行为？

Like, totally, I think it is a very worthwhile intellectual project and a very difficult one.

总的来说，我认为这是一个非常有价值的智力项目，也是一个非常困难的项目。

At the same time, how can we produce more good people who will do right things regardless of the system that they're in?

与此同时，我们如何才能培养出更多优秀的人才，无论他们所处的体制如何，他们都会做正确的事情？

I think such people can exist.

我想这样的人是可能存在的。

I think if we try, we can make more of them.

我想如果我们尝试的话，我们可以制作更多。

And, at the very least, each individual can decide whether they want to be one of them or not.

而且，至少，每个人都可以决定自己是否想成为其中一员。

And, I think if no one does that, then, yeah, of course, it doesn't matter who is in charge.

而且，我认为如果没有人这样做，那么，是的，当然，谁负责并不重要。

But, if we can do that, then it does matter a lot who is in charge.

但是，如果我们能做到这一点，那么谁负责就很重要了。

That, like, this climate and this system that we're describing is made out of people.

就像我们所描述的这种气候和这个系统是由人组成的。

And, if it's made out of good people, it'll be good.

而且，如果它是由好人组成的，那就太好了。

And, if it's made out of bad people, it'll be bad.

而且，如果它是由坏人制作的，那就很糟糕。

Russ Roberts: The more I think about it, the more I think it has to do with Lord Moulton and his idea of obedience to the unenforceable.

拉斯·罗伯茨：我想得越多，我就越认为这与莫尔顿勋爵和他服从不可执行的想法有关。

So, when a nation first starts--we look back on America, and we see this incredible generation of Adams, Jefferson, Washington, Hamilton.

因此，当一个国家刚起步时，我们回顾美国，我们会看到亚当斯、杰斐逊、华盛顿、汉密尔顿这一代令人难以置信的一代人。

They are people who felt they should do the right thing.

他们是觉得自己应该做正确事情的人。

They might not have agreed on what the right thing was, but they clearly had the good of the nation somewhere in their core.

他们可能没有就什么是正确的事情达成一致，但他们的核心显然是国家的利益。

Here in Israel, we're 78 years old, so we're on the third or fourth generation of leadership.

在以色列，我们已经 78 岁了，所以我们已经是第三代或第四代领导层了。

And, the farther you get from the founding and the romance and the culture of that founding, I think the harder it is to preserve the idea of doing the right thing and the more it is: What's in it for me?

而且，你离创始之初以及创始之初的浪漫和文化越远，我认为就越难保持做正确事情的想法，也就越难：这对我来说有什么好处？

And I think one of the problems in America--which is, of course, 250 years old; plenty of time has passed--there's been a slow and steady erosion of what we might call public spiritedness: people willing to do the right thing even though it might hurt them.

我认为美国的问题之一——当然已经有 250 年历史了；时间已经过去了——我们所谓的公共精神正在缓慢而稳定地受到侵蚀：人们愿意做正确的事情，即使这可能会伤害他们。

And, that's terrible.

而且，那太可怕了。

It's hard to understand how a democracy can survive that.

很难理解民主国家如何能够在这种情况下生存。

So, in a way, when we talk about, well, we need the better incentives or we need the better people, what you really need is a culture that has those incentives built in as the kind of emotional conscience rewards that I was talking about earlier.

因此，在某种程度上，当我们谈论我们需要更好的激励措施或者我们需要更好的人才时，你真正需要的是一种将这些激励措施内置为我之前谈到的情感良心奖励的文化。

And, if you don't have that, it kind of doesn't matter what the incentives are: you're not going to get good outcomes.

而且，如果你没有这一点，那么激励是什么并不重要：你不会得到好的结果。

So, I think that's really a problem with the West writ large these days, is that the political process does not have the culture that it once had, and it continues to deteriorate.

所以，我认为当今西方确实存在一个明显的问题，那就是政治进程不再具有它曾经拥有的文化，而且它还在继续恶化。

Adam Mastroianni: I read a really interesting book recently, you might be familiar with, called Fear of a Setting Sun , which is by a historian who makes this claim that almost to a man, the Founding Fathers of the United States became blackpilled on America before their death.

亚当·马斯楚安尼（Adam Mastroianni）：我最近读了一本非常有趣的书，你可能很熟悉，叫《恐惧落日》，这本书是由一位历史学家写的，他声称，几乎对一个人来说，美国的开国元勋在去世前就对美国进行了黑化。

Basically, they went to their death saying, 'We tried, guys, but it didn't work.'

基本上，他们临终前都会说：“伙计们，我们尝试过，但没有成功。”

So, you have Thomas Jefferson saying shortly before his death: My only solace--I'm paraphrasing, but--my only solace is that I will not be alive to see the dissolution of the country, but it's coming soon.

所以，托马斯·杰斐逊在去世前不久说过：我唯一的安慰——我是在解释，但是——我唯一的安慰是我不会活着看到国家解体，但它很快就会到来。

Washington, similarly, Adams, similarly.

华盛顿也同样，亚当斯也同样。

They all lived long enough to see this period after the Revolutionary War when we no longer have a common enemy.

他们都活得足够长，看到了独立战争后我们不再有共同敌人的这段时期。

Now we have our enemies in common.

现在我们有了共同的敌人。

And, there, I think, was this very naive sense that the spirit of 1776 was going to carry on forever and that we weren't going to have these internecine feuds.

而且，我认为，这是一种非常天真的感觉，1776 年的精神将永远延续下去，我们不会再有这些内讧。

And, it's such a bad sign that we do, and it means that doom is coming.

而且，这是一个非常糟糕的迹象，这意味着厄运即将来临。

And, I could totally understand why they felt that way.

而且，我完全理解他们为什么会有这种感觉。

But, 250 years later, we're still here.

但是，250 年后，我们仍然在这里。

Not how they thought we would be.

我们不是他们想象的那样。

Russ Roberts: I think Adam Smith understood that.

拉斯·罗伯茨：我认为亚当·斯密明白这一点。

He said, 'There's a lot of ruin in a nation.' By that he meant you can get by with a lot of mistakes.

他说，“一个国家有很多废墟。”他的意思是你可以犯很多错误。

But, there is a point where maybe you've used up your credits.

但是，有一点你可能已经用完了你的积分。

Russ Roberts: Let's apply this to academic life, which has a similar, I think, problem with ethos and norms and the unenforceable norms that people were once obedient to, but now not so much.

拉斯·罗伯茨：让我们将其应用到学术生活中，我认为，学术生活也有类似的问题，即精神和规范以及人们曾经遵守的不可执行的规范，但现在不那么严重了。

I'll just use myself as an example.

我仅以我自己为例。

When I came out of graduate school, I earned $18,000, roughly.

当我从研究生院毕业时，我的收入大约为 18,000 美元。

I think it was $18,600.

我认为是 18,600 美元。

And, it may have been almost $19,000, $18,800.

而且，可能差不多是 19,000 美元、18,800 美元。

Yeah.

是的。

You could correct for inflation.

你可以纠正通货膨胀。

It's not as bad as it sounds.

这并不像听起来那么糟糕。

And, I was very happy that I wasn't working in finance or for the chief economist's office at a major U.S. corporation, where I could have made a lot more money, but I would have died.

而且，我很高兴我没有在一家美国大公司的金融部门或首席经济学家办公室工作，在那里我可以赚更多的钱，但我可能会死。

I would have just been shriveled up.

我本来就已经枯萎了。

I would have walked out of it almost, eventually.

最终我几乎会走出它。

I like to think maybe if I'd gotten to enjoy it, I would have gotten used to it.

我想，如果我能享受它，我就会习惯它。

But, when academic life was not so lucrative, one could imagine that it attracted a group of people who were interested in discovering things and teaching and so on.

但是，当学术生活不那么有利可图时，可以想象它吸引了一群对发现事物和教学等感兴趣的人。

And, as academic life has gotten increasingly lucrative, where there are professors in economics who make over $500,000 a year, for example, or $750,000 in some situations, and economics in one of the more lucrative fields because it has to compete with finance, which is a whole 'nother issue.

而且，随着学术生活变得越来越有利可图，例如，经济学教授的年薪超过 50 万美元，在某些情况下甚至达到 75 万美元，而经济学又是更有利可图的领域之一，因为它必须与金融竞争，而这完全是“另一个问题”。

So, I understand that in other fields it's not as lucrative.

所以，我知道在其他领域它并不那么有利可图。

But, once, if it gets to be a very pleasant--not just a very satisfying place, but a very pleasant material place--surely it's harder to keep the norms of honesty and truth-seeking that created the discipline in the first place.

但是，一旦它变得非常令人愉快——不仅是一个非常令人满意的地方，而且是一个非常令人愉快的物质场所——那么遵守最初创建该学科的诚实和求真规范肯定会更困难。

Adam Mastroianni: Yeah.

亚当·马斯楚安尼：是的。

I think, similarly, when was Christianity at its best?

我想，同样地，基督教什么时候是最好的？

I think when there was a possibility you could be thrown to the lions.

我认为当有可能时你可能会被扔给狮子。

But, I think the reason that is, it applies a very strong selection effect, that: who is the kind of person who is very attracted to making $750,000 a year is, I think, often not the kind of person who is going to make a great professor.

但是，我认为原因是，它应用了非常强的选择效应，即：我认为，那些非常喜欢年薪 75 万美元的人通常不会成为一名伟大的教授。

And, I think that the effect of those salaries is less that it corrupts people who might otherwise have been good versus it attracts a person who should not be there, and it puts them in competition with one another.

而且，我认为这些薪水的影响与其说是腐蚀了原本可能表现良好的人，不如说是吸引了不应该在那里的人，并使他们相互竞争。

So, yeah.

所以，是的。

I agree, but I think it draws the wrong kind of ethos because it allows the wrong kind of person to exist.

我同意，但我认为它引起了错误的风气，因为它允许错误的人存在。

Russ Roberts: So, help me out here.

拉斯·罗伯茨：所以，帮我一下吧。

Save my free-market ideals.

拯救我的自由市场理想。

Surely, when you offer $750,000, you're going to get the best professor.

当然，当你出价 75 万美元时，你就会得到最好的教授。

Why wouldn't you?

你为什么不呢？

It's going to draw the best academic.

它将吸引最优秀的学者。

What's wrong there?

那里出了什么问题？

What's wrong with those incentives?

这些激励措施有什么问题吗？

Adam Mastroianni: That, I think, what you want out of a professor is the kind of person who is willing to prioritize the truth above all else.

亚当·马斯楚安尼：我认为，你想要的教授是那种愿意将真相置于首位的人。

And, if you make it very financially attractive to be a professor, you're going to attract a bunch of people who do not prize the truth above all else.

而且，如果你让成为一名教授在经济上非常有吸引力，你就会吸引一群不把真理看得高于一切的人。

And especially if your selection procedures are not good at rooting out who is really in it for the truth and who is in it for the salary, then you're in big trouble.

尤其是如果你的选拔程序不能很好地找出谁是真正为了真相而参与的，谁是为了薪水而参与的，那么你就有大麻烦了。

If you could do that--if we could look into people's heart of hearts--then I think the dangling the salary works.

如果你能做到这一点——如果我们能洞察人们的内心——那么我认为悬而未决的薪水是有效的。

The problem is we're really bad at picking out who is in it for the right reasons and who is in it for the wrong reasons.

问题是我们真的不擅长辨别谁因正确的原因而参与其中以及谁因错误的原因而参与其中。

And many people doing the picking are in it for the wrong reasons.

许多从事采摘工作的人都是出于错误的原因。

So, we're sort of stuck in this vicious cycle.

所以，我们有点陷入了这个恶性循环。

But otherwise it would totally make sense: If you offer more reward for it, you're going to attract better people, except if the reward is, in fact, what attracts the wrong kind of person in the first place.

但除此之外，这完全是有道理的：如果你为此提供更多奖励，你就会吸引更好的人，除非奖励实际上首先吸引了错误类型的人。

Russ Roberts: Well, I think it does attract better people, but 'better' is not the same for the people who are doing the choosing versus what you and I are trying to talk about.

拉斯·罗伯茨：嗯，我认为它确实吸引了更好的人，但“更好”对于那些正在做选择的人来说与你和我试图谈论的人是不同的。

It attracts people who are really good at publishing and publishing, to come back to one of my favorite posts of yours on the peer review system.

它吸引了那些真正擅长出版和出版的人，回到同行评审系统上我最喜欢的你的帖子之一。

I want to say that's an example--by the way, a very rare example--where I walked into that essay thinking, 'Well, this is going to be stupid, but I'll look at the first part of it.

我想说这是一个例子——顺便说一句，一个非常罕见的例子——我在读这篇文章时心想，‘好吧，这会很愚蠢，但我会看看它的第一部分。

This is silly.

这很愚蠢。

This is going to just be a bunch of goofy utopian idealism.' And, at the end of that essay, I thought, 'No, peer review system is worthless.

这只是一堆愚蠢的乌托邦理想主义。而且，在那篇文章的结尾，我想，‘不，同行评审制度毫无价值。

You're right.

你说得对。

We need to abolish it.'

我们需要废除它。

Now, I don't want to say that everybody in academic life is a gross pursuer of money.

现在，我不想说学术界的每个人都是金钱的狂热追求者。

It's not true.

这不是真的。

And, many of them care about the truth.

而且，他们中的许多人关心真相。

But, I do think that academic life is less--it's not as productive in the social sense of the word as it once was.

但是，我确实认为学术生活越来越少——从社会意义上来说，它不再像以前那样富有成效。

So, that's my take.

这就是我的看法。

Adam Mastroianni: What do you mean, 'productive'?

Adam Mastroianni：“富有成效”是什么意思？

Russ Roberts: This comes back to your conference in San Francisco.

拉斯·罗伯茨：这又回到了你们在旧金山举行的会议。

If I took the last 25 years of the five major journals in economics and asked, 'Give me five articles, 10 articles from those journals that have made the world a better place or helped us understand something profoundly that we didn't understand before.' Now, I'm not so good at the literature anymore, but I'd love to hear listeners try to come up with those.

如果我查看过去 25 年的五种主要经济学期刊，然后问：“给我 5 篇文章，其中 10 篇来自这些期刊的文章，它们使世界变得更加美好，或者帮助我们深刻地理解了一些我们以前不理解的东西。”现在，我不再擅长文学了，但我很乐意听到听众尝试提出这些内容。

What's the social product there?

那里有什么社交产品？

It's highly subsidized, by the way, of course--incredibly subsidized by taxpayers, on average who earn less than the faculty whose work they're subsidizing.

顺便说一句，当然，这是由纳税人提供的高额补贴，纳税人的平均收入低于他们所补贴工作的教师。

Which would be worth it if good things came from it.

如果能带来好的结果，那就值得了。

But, I think it's hard to make that case.

但是，我认为很难证明这一点。

By the way, that's one of the big fish.

顺便说一下，那是一条大鱼。

To say that, it's anathema.

这么说，真是令人厌恶。

It's heresy.

这是异端。

Right?

正确的？

We have to believe that all of our work as academics is, of course, pushing out--I used to call it--pushing out the frontiers of knowledge.

当然，我们必须相信，我们作为学者的所有工作都是在推动——我过去称之为——推动知识的前沿。

But, I think when we look deeply at ourselves, we see the big fish, and it's not what it does.

但是，我认为当我们深入审视自己时，我们看到的是大鱼，但事实并非如此。

And, it's not just, 'Oh, they tried, but it didn't work out.

而且，这不仅仅是‘哦，他们尝试过，但没有成功。

This one just didn't work out.' It's not the game.

这只是没有成功。这不是游戏。

That's not the game.

那不是游戏。

The game is a different game.

游戏是一个不同的游戏。

Adam Mastroianni: Yeah.

亚当·马斯楚安尼：是的。

We were talking before about salaries, and I think obviously in some places that attracts the kind of person who doesn't make a great academic.

我们之前讨论过薪水，我认为显然在某些地方会吸引那些不太擅长学术的人。

Most places, it's not money: it's status.

在大多数地方，重要的不是金钱：而是地位。

Adam Mastroianni: The fact that it feels good if people call you a professor; people love it.

Adam Mastroianni：事实上，如果人们称你为教授，感觉很好；人们喜欢它。

It's something that so many people want and so few people get.

这是很多人想要但很少人得到的东西。

And, I think it's much harder to tell the difference between what you're doing for status and what you're doing for knowledge because so many of the status markers purport to be knowledge markers.

而且，我认为区分你为地位所做的事情和你为知识所做的事情要困难得多，因为很多状态标记都声称是知识标记。

They're, like, 'Well, you got published in a great journal.

他们会说，‘好吧，你在一本很棒的期刊上发表了文章。

Must mean that it's great work.' And, now we're at a point where people talk about targeting certain papers for certain journals, or they refer to them as pubs or A-pubs.

一定意味着这是一项伟大的工作。而且，现在我们正处于这样一个阶段：人们谈论针对某些期刊的某些论文，或者他们将它们称为 pubs 或 A-pubs。

To be honest, I find this vile and repulsive.

说实话，我觉得这种行为很卑鄙、令人厌恶。

It feels to me like defacing a crucifix.

对我来说，这就像污损十字架一样。

I get that same kind of reaction of just like, 'This is too close to the thing we are supposed to hold sacred, and we're not doing it.'

我得到了同样的反应，就像，“这太接近我们应该视为神圣的事情，而我们没有这样做。”

And, I get that it costs a lot to hold it sacred, but that is the whole point of the enterprise, is to do that.

而且，我知道保持它神圣的成本很高，但这就是企业的全部意义，就是做到这一点。

And, whatever trade-offs you have to make--of which there are many--you're meant to trade for that.

而且，无论你必须做出什么权衡——其中有很多——你都应该为此进行交易。

That's why I'm not there anymore, because I felt like I was trading everything, and I wasn't getting that.

这就是为什么我不再在那里了，因为我觉得我在交易一切，但我没有得到这一点。

And so, it was, like, well, what's the point?

所以，这有什么意义呢？

I'm willing to sacrifice a lot if it means I can study what I think is important, describe it using words that I think are accurate, and for that I'm willing to make less money.

如果这意味着我可以研究我认为重要的东西，用我认为准确的词语描述它，我愿意牺牲很多，为此我愿意赚更少的钱。

I'm willing to have job insecurity.

我愿意工作没有安全感。

I'm willing to have to move around all over the world.

我愿意搬到世界各地。

But, if you do all those things and then it's, like, 'And, why not put out a bunch of junk papers,' or 'Why not fudge the stats a little bit?' That's, like, 'No, no, then it's not worth it.' Yeah.

但是，如果你做了所有这些事情，然后就会出现，“而且，为什么不发表一堆垃圾论文”，或者“为什么不稍微捏造一下统计数据呢？”这就像，“不，不，那就不值得了。”是的。

Russ Roberts: Let's close with this question of: What should you do with yourself to make the world a better place?

拉斯·罗伯茨：让我们以这个问题作为结束语：你应该如何对待自己才能让世界变得更美好？

You say, 'Why am I doing these things?

你说，‘我为什么要做这些事？

What's it all for?

这一切是为了什么？

How can I make myself useful?' And, I want to focus on that last one: How can I make myself useful?

我怎样才能让自己变得有用呢？而且，我想重点讨论最后一个：我怎样才能让自己变得有用？

And, of course, doing it in a way that is moral.

当然，要以符合道德的方式去做。

And, we've had people on the program talk about your 80,000 hours of work: Benjamin Todd, talking about 80,000 hours of work.

而且，我们节目中的人谈论了您 80,000 小时的工作：本杰明·托德 (Benjamin Todd) 谈论了 80,000 小时的工作。

How should you devote those 80,000 hours?

你应该如何投入这80,000个小时？

And, I think I want to suggest that figuring that out, which you encourage in this piece, is really hard.

而且，我想我想说的是，弄清楚你在这篇文章中所鼓励的这一点确实很难。

I think it's really easy to think deeply and pick an ideology, a theology, a lack of either.

我认为深入思考并选择一种意识形态，一种神学，或者两者都缺乏是很容易的。

That actually is not so healthy, and sticking by your principles might actually be a mistake.

这实际上不太健康，坚持你的原则实际上可能是一个错误。

So, I think it's really, really, really complicated.

所以，我认为这真的非常非常复杂。

What I would say is that it's an effort worth making and that being humble about the virtue of what you're doing is a good first step.

我想说的是，这是一项值得做出的努力，对自己所做的事情保持谦虚是良好的第一步。

So, I'd be curious if you have thoughts on that.

所以，我很好奇你对此有何想法。

Adam Mastroianni: Totally.

亚当·马斯楚安尼：完全可以。

I agree that it is one of the hardest things we do, if not the hardest.

我同意，这是我们所做的最困难的事情之一，即使不是最困难的。

I have a book coming out next year that's not about this.

明年我会出版一本与此无关的书。

The next book that I'm working on is about this: How do you figure out how you're useful in the world?

我正在写的下一本书是关于这个的：你如何知道你在这个世界上有什么用处？

How do you find a place?

你如何找到地方？

In part, because I think this is a pretty modern question that we're asking ourselves.

部分原因是因为我认为这是我们问自己的一个非常现代的问题。

This is a place where we don't have a lot of ancient wisdom to draw on.

这是一个我们没有太多古代智慧可供借鉴的地方。

Like, ancient Greeks, there weren't a lot of careers to choose from.

就像古希腊人一样，没有太多职业可供选择。

Even until 150 years ago, 80 to 90% of people were farmers.

即使直到 150 年前，80% 至 90% 的人口都是农民。

And so, the question in front of us was: how do we get the seeds to grow?

那么，摆在我们面前的问题是：如何让种子发芽？

No: Should I be a farmer, or should I work for Philip Morris, or should I drive a boat, or whatever.

不：我应该成为一名农民，还是应该为菲利普莫里斯公司工作，或者应该开船，或者其他什么。

We have to do this without a lot of guidance from the generations of humans who have come before us.

我们必须在没有前辈的大量指导的情况下做到这一点。

And so, I think the bar for our thinking right now is pretty low and possible to raise it.

因此，我认为我们现在的思考门槛相当低，并且可以提高。

And, I agree, a first step is to be humble about it and to account for the fact that it takes a long time.

而且，我同意，第一步是对此保持谦虚，并考虑到这需要很长时间的事实。

I think it's also a moving target.

我认为这也是一个移动目标。

I don't think it's a thing you figure out once and then you're done.

我不认为这是一件你一旦弄清楚就可以完成的事情。

And, I think all I would add to it is: it is not a private endeavor.

而且，我想我要补充的是：这不是私人努力。

I think we think of ourselves as, like, 'Oh, I need to find myself for myself.' That the point of me figuring out what I'm all about is for my own pleasure and success.

我认为我们对自己的看法是，“哦，我需要为自己找到自己。”我弄清楚自己的全部目的是为了我自己的快乐和成功。

Obviously, that's a great reason to do it, but there is a large public interest in people completing this process well, because if you find your place and contribute well, we all benefit.

显然，这是这样做的一个很好的理由，但是公众对很好地完成这个过程的人有很大的兴趣，因为如果你找到自己的位置并做出良好的贡献，我们都会受益。

If you end up in the wrong place, that is the kind of person who ends up being the brand manager at Philip Morris.

如果你最终走错了地方，那么这种人最终会成为菲利普·莫里斯的品牌经理。

It's the kind of person who ends up committing crimes.

这种人最终会犯罪。

Like, we want this to go well for everyone, and so I think we owe each other both the patience of doing it, but also the expectation that we will do it, and whatever help we can give each other in doing it as well.

就像，我们希望这对每个人来说都顺利，所以我认为我们既欠彼此做这件事的耐心，也欠我们将要做这件事的期望，以及我们在做这件事时可以给予对方的任何帮助。

That this isn't a private matter, like what kind of underwear you're wearing.

这不是私人问题，就像你穿什么样的内衣一样。

It is a very public matter of: how do I work together with other people?

这是一个非常公开的问题：我如何与其他人一起工作？

And, I think we should do our best to help each other answer that question rather than leave everyone to be entrepreneurial about it on their own.

而且，我认为我们应该尽力帮助彼此回答这个问题，而不是让每个人都自己创业。

Russ Roberts: I'd like to spend five or 10 minutes--I'm not going to--but defending the brand manager in Philip Morris, but we'll put that to the side.

拉斯·罗伯茨：我想花五到十分钟——我不会——为菲利普·莫里斯的品牌经理辩护，但我们会把它放在一边。

And, in case anyone's listening who is in that job, I'm open to the possibility that that's not the worst thing in the world.

而且，如果有人在听从事这份工作的人，我愿意接受这样的可能性：这并不是世界上最糟糕的事情。

I think that the bigger challenge--and I'm not sure I agree with you about the publicness of this, and I look forward to your book.

我认为更大的挑战——我不确定我是否同意你关于这件事的公开性的看法，我期待着你的书。

But I really think the question is much more at the micro level.

但我确实认为这个问题更多的是在微观层面上。

It's exaggerating your expenses at work to get a bigger check back, and not speaking up on behalf of a coworker because you're competing for the same job.

这是为了获得更大的回报而夸大你在工作中的开支，并且因为你们在竞争同一份工作而不代表同事说话。

Those day-to-day ethical decisions, I think, are equally important and really hard.

我认为，这些日常道德决策同样重要，也非常困难。

And, there's no magic trick to how do you sustain a good life--meaning a life where you are doing good and not just feeling good.

而且，如何维持美好的生活并没有什么神奇的技巧——也就是说，你的生活是做好事而不仅仅是感觉良好。

So, I think it's hard.

所以，我觉得很难。

Adam Mastroianni: I agree.

亚当·马斯楚安尼：我同意。

Yeah.

是的。

And, I don't know which way it goes.

而且，我不知道它会走向何方。

If you get the small things right, do you get the big things right?

如果你把小事做好了，你就能把大事做好吗？

Or, if you get the big things right, do you get the small things right?

或者，如果你把大事做好了，你就能把小事做好吗？

Like, why are you so conflicted about speaking up for this colleague?

比如，为什么你对为这位同事说话感到如此矛盾？

Is it because you're in the wrong job in the first place?

是因为你一开始就找错了工作吗？

If you were in the right one, would you feel that sense of confidence and freedom that would make you feel, 'I don't need to hoard for myself.

如果你是对的人，你会感受到那种自信和自由的感觉，让你觉得“我不需要为自己囤积东西”。

I can also give away.' I don't know.

我也可以赠送。我不知道。

I don't have a strong theory which way.

我没有强有力的理论。

They both seem good, and maybe for some people it is, get the small right and you'll get the big right; and for other people it's, get the big right, you get the small right.

它们看起来都不错，也许对某些人来说确实如此，做好小事，你就会得到大事；对于其他人来说，就是，得到大的权利，你得到小的权利。

I don't know.

我不知道。

Russ Roberts: My guest today has been Adam Mastroianni.

拉斯·罗伯茨：今天我的客人是亚当·马斯楚安尼。

Adam, thanks for being part of EconTalk.

Adam，感谢您参与 EconTalk。

Adam Mastroianni: Thanks for having me.

亚当·马斯楚安尼：谢谢你邀请我。

Always a pleasure.

总是一种乐趣。