from sawdust to paw patrol the spin master story with ronnen harary
A nylon stocking filled with sawdust that grows grass for hair launched one of the most successful toy companies in the world.
世界上最成功的玩具公司之一推出了一种填充木屑的尼龙袜，这种木屑可以长出草来长头发。
Ronnen Harary , co-founder of Spin Master and co-creator of Paw Patrol, talks about his book No Experience Necessary with EconTalk's Russ Roberts .
Spin Master 联合创始人兼狗狗巡逻队联合创始人 Ronnen Harary 与 EconTalk 的 Russ Roberts 谈论他的书《No Experience Necessary》。
Harary traces his journey from selling grass-growing novelty heads at 23, through Devil Sticks and Air Hogs, to building Bakugan and Paw Patrol into global franchises touching the lives of millions of children.
哈拉里追溯了他从 23 岁时销售草类新奇头颅，到《魔鬼棒》和《空中猪》，再到将《爆丸》和《狗狗巡逻队》打造成影响数百万儿童生活的全球特许经营权的历程。
Along the way, he reflects on the artistry of commercial creation and what it means to build something that outlives its founders.
一路上，他反思了商业创作的艺术性，以及创造比创始人更长寿的东西意味着什么。
The conversation closes on the eternal magic of toys and our childhoods.
谈话以玩具和我们的童年的永恒魔力结束。
Where did the idea that Paw Patrol is educational come from?
《狗狗巡逻队》的教育理念从何而来？
I’ve heard people say it before, but I was surprised Russ just took that for granted.
我以前听过人们这么说过，但令我惊讶的是 Russ 认为这是理所当然的。
If you asked me “what is more educational, Scooby-Doo or Paw Patrol?” I’d pick Scooby-Doo .
如果你问我“史酷比和狗狗巡逻队哪个更有教育意义？”我会选择史酷比。
But neither belongs anywhere near the same category as actual educational programming like Sesame Street .
但两者都不属于与《芝麻街》等实际教育节目相同的类别。
In fact, I think part of Paw Patrol ‘s success is the opposite: it gives kids exactly what they want with no cognitive or emotional effort required.
事实上，我认为狗狗巡逻队的成功部分是相反的：它为孩子们提供了他们想要的东西，而不需要认知或情感上的努力。
I’m not saying Paw Patrol is bad.
我并不是说狗狗巡逻队不好。
All three of my kids loved it, and we have hundreds of dollars’ worth of Paw Patrol toys in the house.
我的三个孩子都很喜欢它，我们家里有价值数百美元的狗狗巡逻队玩具。
But to me it’s clearly content for when I need to zombify my kid for 20 minutes while I get dinner on the table.
但对我来说，当我需要在餐桌上准备晚餐的同时让我的孩子僵尸化 20 分钟时，这显然很满足。
Check out Malcolm Gladwell’s In Defense of Paw Patrol episode of his Revisionist History podcast.
查看马尔科姆·格拉德威尔修正主义历史播客中的《捍卫狗狗巡逻队》一集。
The show might not be educational yet it is ideological, in his opinion.
在他看来，这个节目可能没有教育意义，但却具有意识形态意义。
Additional ideas and people mentioned in this podcast episode:
本播客节目中提到的其他想法和人物：
A few more readings and background resources:
更多阅读材料和背景资源：
More related EconTalk podcast episodes, by Category:
更多相关的 EconTalk 播客剧集，按类别：
* As an Amazon Associate, Econlib earns from qualifying purchases.
* 作为亚马逊合作伙伴，Econlib 通过符合条件的购买赚取收入。
Russ Roberts: Today is May 28th, 2026, and I want to remind listeners before introducing today's guest that we're doing an EconTalk Book Club around The Iliad by Homer.
Russ Roberts：今天是 2026 年 5 月 28 日，在介绍今天的嘉宾之前，我想提醒听众，我们正在围绕荷马的《伊利亚特》举办一个 EconTalk 读书俱乐部。
Last week's episode was with Ido Hevroni of Shalem College, introducing the book, providing some useful context to help you get started.
上周的节目由 Shalem 学院的 Ido Hevroni 主持，介绍了这本书，并提供了一些有用的背景信息来帮助您入门。
Another episode, or episodes--depends--later[?] in the weeks to come.
另一集或几集——视情况而定——在接下来的几周内[？]。
We're using the Fagles' translation, but there are many others to choose from.
我们正在使用 Fagles 的翻译，但还有许多其他翻译可供选择。
And now for today's guest: entrepreneur, television and film producer, Ronnen Harary.
现在请来今天的嘉宾：企业家、电视和电影制片人 Ronnen Harary。
He is a co-founder of the Canadian children's entertainment company, Spin Master, the co-creator of PAW Patrol, a preschool series that airs in 160 countries.
他是加拿大儿童娱乐公司 Spin Master 的联合创始人，也是在 160 个国家播出的学前连续剧《狗狗巡逻队》的联合创始人。
Spin Master had revenue of 2.3 billion in 2024 and is the fourth-largest toy company in the world behind Mattel, Hasbro, and Lego, and he's the author of No Experience Necessary: Why Betting on Yourself in Your Twenties Is the Best Decision You'll Ever Make , which is our topic for today.
Spin Master 2024 年营收为 23 亿美元，是仅次于美泰、孩之宝和乐高的全球第四大玩具公司，他是《无需经验：为什么在二十多岁时押注自己是你将做出的最佳决定》一书的作者，这就是我们今天的主题。
Ronnen, welcome to EconTalk.
Ronnen，欢迎来到 EconTalk。
Ronnen Harary: Thanks, Russ.
Ronnen Harary：谢谢，拉斯。
Thanks for having me.
谢谢你有我。
Russ Roberts: Now, this is a very entertaining and thoughtful book.
拉斯·罗伯茨：这是一本非常有趣且深思熟虑的书。
The point of the book is to encourage young people to take a chance, start a business.
这本书的目的是鼓励年轻人抓住机会，创业。
And a lot more to the book than that.
这本书的内容远不止这些。
It has some moral lessons and life lessons, business lessons.
它有一些道德教训、生活教训、商业教训。
I want to start with risk because when you encourage people to start a business, well, everyone thinks, 'Well, that's risky,' and you say it's a misunderstood concept.
我想从风险开始，因为当你鼓励人们创业时，每个人都会想，“嗯，这是有风险的”，而你说这是一个被误解的概念。
In what way is it misunderstood, and what do you think is the right way to think about it?
它在哪些方面被误解了？您认为正确的思考方式是什么？
Ronnen Harary: A lot of people look at the pros and cons of starting something, and you can always game out the downside.
Ronnen Harary：很多人都会考虑开始某件事的利弊，并且你总是可以克服不利的一面。
It's really, really easy to game out the downside.
克服不利因素真的非常容易。
It's very hard to game out the upside because you don't know what's going to actually happen.
很难预测有利的一面，因为你不知道实际会发生什么。
It's actually beyond all our imaginations what's possible.
这实际上超出了我们的想象。
But, if you don't start, then you miss out on the screenplay of your life.
但是，如果你不开始，那么你就会错过你人生的剧本。
And it's kind of why I wrote this book, because a lot of people have a lot of pressure from their parents.
这就是我写这本书的原因，因为很多人都承受着来自父母的很大压力。
They have a lot of pressure from society.
他们承受着来自社会的巨大压力。
And, they doubt themselves.
而且，他们怀疑自己。
So, I wrote the book actually so people can either make the case to themselves to take a risk in something--whatever it is, in business or in arts--or to make the case to not do something, and to create a conversation and to reframe their thoughts around what is possible in their life.
所以，我写这本书实际上是为了让人们能够说服自己在某件事上冒险——无论是什么，商业还是艺术——或者说服自己不做某事，并建立对话并围绕生活中可能发生的事情重新构建他们的想法。
Russ Roberts: You make the point, which I think is profound, and certainly a good economist knows this; a bad one might miss it.
拉斯·罗伯茨：我认为你提出了这一点，意义深远，优秀的经济学家当然知道这一点；坏人可能会错过它。
But, we often think about the risk of losing money.
但是，我们经常考虑赔钱的风险。
You start a business.
你创业。
Whatever you put into it is going to be gone.
无论你投入什么，都会消失。
You could have a crushing disappointment.
你可能会感到极度失望。
But the main thing people tend to focus on is the money.
但人们最关心的往往是钱。
But, you point out if you don't do something, you may be misusing your time, and in many ways that's more precious than money.
但是，您指出，如果您不做某事，您可能会滥用时间，而从很多方面来说，这比金钱更宝贵。
Nothing really goes bad often.
没有什么事情经常会变坏。
You can recover, especially when you're young, from losing some money.
你可以从损失一些钱中恢复过来，尤其是在你年轻的时候。
Wasting your life is a different matter.
浪费生命是另一回事。
Ronnen Harary: Yeah.
罗南·哈拉里：是的。
I think that we focus a lot on the money, and we don't necessarily focus on what we want to do with our life.
我认为我们非常关注金钱，而不一定关注我们想要做什么。
And, I also think about the whole notion of equity.
而且，我还思考了公平的整个概念。
What you trade off when you don't take the risk to do something for yourself, especially in the realm of starting your own business, is that the time that you're putting into an endeavor and by working for another company, all the upside is going to accrue to someone else.
当你不冒险为自己做某事时，尤其是在自己创业的领域，你所付出的代价是，当你投入努力并为另一家公司工作时，所有的好处都将归于其他人。
It's not going to accrue to you.
它不会对你产生影响。
So essentially, you're renting your time--right?--versus having that time accrue back to you and looking at your earnings over a long arc.
所以本质上，你是在租用你的时间——对吧？——而不是让这些时间归还给你，并长期审视你的收入。
So, I encourage people to look at your earnings over a 20-year period or a 30-year period.
因此，我鼓励人们查看 20 年或 30 年期间的收入。
Obviously, if you start a business, your earnings at the beginning are going to be much less than they will be at the end; but divide it back over 30 years, and I bet you your yearly will be higher than the first 10 years if you rent out your time to someone else.
显然，如果你创办一家企业，你一开始的收入将比最终的收入少得多；但是把它分成30年，我敢打赌，如果你把时间出租给别人，你的年收入会比前10年更高。
It's a hard thing.
这是一件很难的事情。
And especially when you're young, it's hard to think that far out into the future.
尤其是当你还年轻的时候，很难对未来进行如此遥远的思考。
But, I think that the other thing about risk--I think a lot about passion, and passion de-levers risk.
但是，我认为关于风险的另一件事——我对激情思考了很多，而激情可以降低风险。
So, if you're really passionate about something and you don't necessarily have the experience to do it, but you're super-passionate and you have an idea, I think the passion will de-lever the risk.
所以，如果你真的对某件事充满热情，而且不一定有做这件事的经验，但你非常热情并且有一个想法，我认为这种热情会降低风险。
If you're just intellectualizing your way into a business or an opportunity, it's not going to work.
如果你只是用智慧的方式进入一个企业或一个机会，那是行不通的。
But, your passion and the fact that you're super-young--you have so much energy--so if you match the energy with the passion and the fact that so many people are rooting for you when you're young and starting a business, like, everybody wants to help you.
但是，你的热情以及你非常年轻的事实——你有如此多的能量——所以如果你将能量与热情相匹配，并且当你年轻并创业时，很多人都支持你，就像，每个人都想帮助你。
Russ Roberts: Let's turn to your first product, which is absurd.
Russ Roberts：让我们看看你的第一个产品，这很荒谬。
There's maybe, I don't know, I'm guessing, I didn't look carefully, might be 10 or 15 pages about this product and how it came to life.
也许，我不知道，我猜，我没有仔细看，可能有 10 或 15 页关于这个产品以及它是如何诞生的。
It's really hard to believe it was a success, I have to say.
我不得不说，真的很难相信它是成功的。
It was called the Earth Buddy.
它被称为地球伙伴。
So, first tell us what it is.
所以，首先告诉我们它是什么。
It's remarkably unappealing, I have to tell you, when you read about it in the abstract.
我必须告诉你，当你读到它的摘要时，它是非常没有吸引力的。
Ronnen Harary: Well, yeah, we should have added some pictures.
Ronnen Harary：嗯，是的，我们应该添加一些图片。
Basically, it's kind of like a 1990s version of the 1970s Chia Pet.
基本上，它有点像 20 世纪 70 年代 Chia Pet 的 90 年代版本。
So, it's in the size of a softball.
所以，它有垒球大小。
It's made out of nylon, sawdust, and grass seed, and it's got a happy face on it.
它由尼龙、锯末和草籽制成，上面有一张快乐的脸。
You put it in water, and it grows grass for hair.
你把它放在水里，它就会长出草来长头发。
Ronnen Harary: That's it.
罗南·哈拉里：就是这样。
But, it's more than that because it's so magical because you would never imagine grass growing from this softball, and it does it over the course of seven days, and so it's quite magical.
但是，它不仅如此，因为它是如此神奇，因为你永远想象不到这个垒球会长出草，而且它会在 7 天的时间里长出来，所以它非常神奇。
It's like a fun houseplant.
它就像一个有趣的室内植物。
Russ Roberts: The design of it, and you described this very entertainingly, you had to try some different things.
拉斯·罗伯茨：它的设计，你描述得非常有趣，你必须尝试一些不同的东西。
It wasn't a first time out of the box, right?
这不是第一次开箱了，对吧？
Ronnen Harary: Yeah.
罗南·哈拉里：是的。
Well, if we back up, the actual idea came from someone in Turkey.
好吧，如果我们支持的话，实际的想法来自土耳其的某个人。
No one really knows whoever invented it, and somehow people in Israel found out about it.
没有人真正知道它是谁发明的，不知何故，以色列人发现了它。
I found out about it from my mother, who was reading the Yedioth Ahronoth , which is an largest Israeli--the largest Israeli newspaper.
我是从我母亲那里得知这件事的，她正在阅读以色列最大的报纸《新消息报》。
And there was a six-page spread about these six different individuals that were manufacturing the product.
有一份长达六页的内容介绍了制造该产品的六个不同的个人。
And in classic Israeli style, they all boasted about how many they were selling.
他们以经典的以色列风格吹嘘自己的销量。
Basically, I added up all the six, and it came to like 300,000 pieces in a country of 10 million.
基本上，我把所有六件加起来，在一个 1000 万人口的国家里，大约有 30 万件。
I was, like, 'Wow, no one's doing it over here, so we could sell millions here in North America.' So, that was my calculus.
我当时想，‘哇，这里没有人这样做，所以我们可以在北美销售数百万辆。’所以，这就是我的计算。
I didn't look at it the way you looked at it and said it was ugly.
我没有像你那样看它并说它丑陋。
I was just looking at the numbers, actually, and the fact that no one was selling it over here.
事实上，我只是看数字，事实上没有人在这里卖它。
So, my late grandmother brought us--me and my sisters--three Earth Buddies for presents.
因此，我已故的祖母给我们（我和我的姐妹们）带来了三个地球伙伴作为礼物。
They were called Grassheads in Israel.
他们在以色列被称为“草头”。
And, I took them to my business partner, Anton, who we had a small business at university, and I said to him, 'What do you think about manufacturing and selling these in North America?' He thought it was crazy.
而且，我把它们带到了我的商业伙伴安东那里，我们在大学时经营过一家小企业，我对他说，“你对在北美制造和销售这些产品有何看法？”他认为这太疯狂了。
So, it took me two weeks.
所以，我花了两周时间。
He was like you, actually.
事实上，他就像你一样。
He was like you.
他就像你一样。
So, it took him two weeks to decide.
所以，他花了两周时间才做出决定。
And then, he's, like, 'Okay.
然后，他就说，‘好吧。
Let's do it.'
我们开始做吧。'
Then, the next thing we know, we found ourselves in Kmart buying pantyhose and trying to source sawdust and grass seed and trying to figure out what's the right grass seed.
然后，接下来我们知道，我们发现自己在凯马特购买连裤袜，并试图采购锯末和草籽，并试图找出合适的草籽。
Because we didn't have the recipe.
因为我们没有食谱。
We had to reverse engineer the product.
我们必须对产品进行逆向工程。
Russ Roberts: So, the part that's the narrative of how this product goes from a--you're 22?
Russ Roberts：那么，这部分是关于这款产品如何从你 22 岁开始发展的？
23?
23？
Russ Roberts: So, you make 5,000, and your first attempt is to sell them on street corners.
拉斯·罗伯茨：所以，你赚了 5,000 个，你的第一次尝试就是在街角出售它们。
And, you sell a few hundred, which you later realized was a miracle, but at the time was depressing, right?
而且，你卖了几百个，后来你意识到这是一个奇迹，但当时很沮丧，对吗？
Russ Roberts: So, you get this break.
拉斯·罗伯茨：所以，你可以休息一下了。
You mentioned Sam Kotzer[?] before.
您之前提到过 Sam Kotzer[?]。
He buys a bunch, which is great.
他买了一堆，这很棒。
You tried flower shops and other things.
你尝试过花店和其他地方。
But, the heart of the story, which is unbelievable, is you have a connection to Kmart.
但是，令人难以置信的是，这个故事的核心是你与凯马特有联系。
I haven't heard the word 'Kmart' in a while.
我有一段时间没听到“凯马特”这个词了。
I looked it up.
我查了一下。
They've fallen on hard times.
他们陷入了困境。
According to Wikipedia, they have four stores left.
根据维基百科，他们还剩下四家商店。
Some say they have none.
有些人说他们没有。
They don't have any real stores.
他们没有任何真正的商店。
They have a small fake store.
他们有一家小假货店。
They have some online presence.
他们在网上有一些存在。
But they used to be the number one retail in the world.
但他们曾经是世界第一的零售业。
They were the Walmart before there was Walmart.
他们是沃尔玛之前的沃尔玛。
You want to get to them.
你想要接近他们。
So, you have a buddy who knows someone, and you eventually get a meeting at Kmart.
所以，你有一个认识某人的朋友，你最终会在凯马特见面。
I'm going to read a short paragraph about this trip, which--there's something deeply romantic and beautiful about it.
我将读一段关于这次旅行的短文，其中有一些非常浪漫和美丽的东西。
First, I'm going to set the stage a little bit.
首先，我要先做一些准备。
It's incredibly exciting.
这太令人兴奋了。
This is a dream come true.
这是梦想成真。
You have this funky product, which unlike me, you actually think is a great product.
你有这个时髦的产品，与我不同，你实际上认为它是一个很棒的产品。
It's this ball of sawdust that grows hair.
正是这种锯末球长出了头发。
And you have a chance: It's the most important presentation of your life.
你有机会：这是你一生中最重要的演讲。
It could change your life.
它可能会改变你的生活。
It turns out it does .
事实证明确实如此。
But you're 23; you don't know it, as you point out in the book.
但你已经23岁了；正如您在书中指出的那样，您不知道这一点。
And you show up.
然后你出现了。
You show up at Kmart.
你出现在凯马特。
You've got this incredible opportunity.
你已经得到了这个难以置信的机会。
You get in front of the guy, and what happens?
你走到那个人面前，会发生什么？
Ronnen Harary: Well, first of all, I'm just emotional just listening to you read it back, just the absurdity of it all and the amazingness of it all.
Ronnen Harary：嗯，首先，我只是很激动地听你把它读回来，这一切的荒谬和令人惊奇。
What happens is I pitch him for 30 minutes, no PowerPoint, no nothing, and after 30--and he's a wonderful man.
结果是我向他推销了 30 分钟，没有 PowerPoint，什么也没有，30 分钟后——他是一个很棒的人。
He sits quiet, doesn't say anything for 30 minutes.
他安静地坐着，30分钟没有说话。
And then he says to me, 'I'm not the buyer for this product.'
然后他对我说，“我不是这个产品的买家。”
So, what's running through my head is: He's not telling me the truth.
所以，我脑子里闪过的是：他没有告诉我真相。
And so I pitch him again for 15 minutes, and he listens quietly, and then he says, 'I'm not the buyer for this product.'
于是我又向他推销了 15 分钟，他静静地听着，然后说：“我不是这个产品的买家。”
So then I'm, like, 'Okay.
所以我就说，‘好吧。
I got to make this work somehow.' So, I said to him--I still didn't believe him--I said, 'We'll give it to you on consigned sales, which means that we'll give you the product, and if it sells, you pay us.' So, there's no risk for him.
我必须以某种方式让这项工作成功。所以，我对他说——我仍然不相信他——我说，“我们会通过委托销售的方式给你，这意味着我们会给你产品，如果它卖出去了，你就付钱给我们。”所以，他没有任何风险。
He looks at me; he's, like, 'I'm not the buyer for this product.'
他看着我；他说，“我不是这个产品的买家。”
I'm, like, 'Okay.
我就像，‘好吧。
I'm giving the product for free, and he's not taking it, so he's really not the buyer.'
我免费提供产品，但他没有接受，所以他实际上不是买家。”
So, I said to him, 'Well, who is the buyer?
所以，我对他说，‘那么，买家是谁？
I drove four hours from Toronto.
我从多伦多开车四个小时。
Do you mind letting me know?' And he was a super-gentleman: went back to his office, and came back, and he gave me the name of the buyer on a piece of paper.
你介意让我知道吗？他是一位超级绅士：回到他的办公室，回来后，他在一张纸上给了我买家的名字。
It said Adrienne Zacks.
上面说的是艾德丽安·扎克斯。
I shook his hand and I left, and I started walking around Kmart Corporation looking for this person.
我握了握他的手就离开了，然后我开始在凯马特公司周围寻找这个人。
And the craziest thing is the people that got me the meeting, I didn't even say anything to them.
最疯狂的是那些让我参加会议的人，我什至没有对他们说任何话。
I literally just beelined.
我真的只是径直走过去。
I got so excited.
我很兴奋。
I was like, 'Okay.
我当时想，‘好吧。
I got the name.' So, I beelined looking for this lady.
我知道了名字。于是，我径直寻找这位女士。
And, lucky for me, she was sitting at her desk.
而且，对我来说幸运的是，她坐在办公桌前。
And I pitched her, and she said, 'Okay, I'll give you a meeting at 3:30.' I went downstairs.
我向她推销，她说：“好吧，我会在 3:30 给你一个会面。”我下了楼。
I told the guys.
我告诉了伙计们。
They were, like, 'Let's go for lunch.' I said to them, 'I'm not going anywhere.'
他们说，“我们去吃午饭吧。”我对他们说：“我哪儿也不去。”
So, they left.
于是，他们就离开了。
I was so paranoid back in the day.
那天我非常偏执。
I was, like, 'Maybe they won't let me back in the building.
我当时想，‘也许他们不会让我回到大楼里。
Or maybe she'll call earlier and I'll miss the opportunity.' So, I was, like, 'I'm just going to stay put.' So, I just stayed in the lobby, and I went up--
或者也许她会提前打电话，我就会错过这个机会。”所以，我想，“我就留在原地。”所以，我就呆在大厅里，然后就上去——
Russ Roberts: For five hours, which I love.
拉斯·罗伯茨：五个小时，我喜欢。
Russ Roberts: She, by the way, she's in the horticulture department.
拉斯·罗伯茨：顺便说一句，她在园艺系。
Because this has grass growing, grass seed, and grows vegetation, she's the buyer.
因为这里长着草，有草籽，还长着植被，所以她是买家。
And, I go up at 3:30.
而且，我在 3:30 起床。
And boy, did I know that she was the buyer because as I walked back into her office--I didn't notice this the first time--but she had seven other Grasshead products, Earth Buddies, on the side of her shelf.
天啊，我知道她是买家吗，因为当我走进她的办公室时——我第一次没有注意到这一点——但她的架子边上还有另外七种草头产品，地球伙伴。
So I'm, like, 'Okay.
所以我就说，‘好吧。
Now I know I'm in the right place.'
现在我知道我来对地方了。
And, I had--did--the calculus in my head.
而且，我已经在脑子里进行了计算。
I'm, like, 'Okay.
我就像，‘好吧。
There's a lot of competition.' So, I dropped my price.
有很多竞争。所以，我降低了价格。
I was originally going to come in at $2.60 US, and so I dropped a dollar to $1.65 US, and it was costing us about 70 cents US to make it at the time.
我原本的价格是 2.60 美元，所以我把一美元降到了 1.65 美元，当时我们花了大约 70 美分。
I did the pitch for about 15 minutes.
我做了大约15分钟的推介。
And then she did the most magical thing.
然后她做了最神奇的事情。
She turned around, and she gave me this big fat book, which was the vendor agreement with Kmart, which is to become a vendor, a supplier.
她转过身来，她给了我一本厚厚的书，这是和Kmart的供应商协议，就是成为一个供应商，一个供应商。
She said, 'I'm going to order 48,000 pieces from you.
她说，‘我要向你订购 48,000 件。
If it goes well, I'm going to order half a million pieces for Christmas.'
如果进展顺利，我会为圣诞节订购 50 万件。”
And, I was completely shocked.
而且，我完全震惊了。
And then I did the strangest thing ever--because I didn't believe that it was real.
然后我做了有史以来最奇怪的事情——因为我不相信这是真的。
I asked her for her garden gnome.
我向她要了她的花园侏儒。
She had a gnome--because she was, you know, the buyer of horticulture.
她有一个侏儒——因为她是园艺的买家。
It [?], like, 'Can I have your gnome?' 'Yeah.'
它[？]就像，“我可以拥有你的侏儒吗？” '是的。'
And then I left and drove back to Toronto.
然后我离开并开车返回多伦多。
Russ Roberts: Well, you say, 'She gave me the gnome.' And it's a strange thing to do.
拉斯·罗伯茨：好吧，你说，“她给了我侏儒。”这是一件奇怪的事情。
You say in the book it was to commemorate this out-of-body experience you just had.
你在书中说这是为了纪念你刚刚的这次灵魂出窍的经历。
I hope listeners can either have some measure of your own success in life where something happens that is so surreal, so much better than you possibly could have imagined; and it's not just that, 'Oh, maybe we're going to make a lot of money.' It's so much more than that.
我希望听众能够对自己生活中的成功有某种程度的衡量，当发生的事情是如此超现实，比你想象的要好得多时；不仅仅是这样，“哦，也许我们会赚很多钱。”远不止于此。
It's someone believes in me the way I believe in me.
有人相信我，就像我相信我自己一样。
And it's exhilarating.
这真是令人兴奋。
It's an incredible experience of being a human being.
作为一个人，这是一次令人难以置信的经历。
Russ Roberts: I want to read another quote.
拉斯·罗伯茨：我想读另一句话。
I love this quote.
我喜欢这句话。
You say,
你说，
I think that's just such a profound insight that young people struggle to realize or accept.
我认为这是年轻人难以认识或接受的深刻见解。
We're on your side.
我们站在你这边。
We want you to win.
我们希望你获胜。
And she saw--like you say, she didn't blink.
她看到了——就像你说的，她没有眨眼。
She didn't haggle.
她没有讨价还价。
You obviously gave her a very good price.
显然你给了她一个很好的价格。
But she just, matter of fact, said, 'This is the guy.' She probably realized you'd driven four hours with the box in the trunk.
但事实上，她只是说：“就是这个人。”她可能意识到你把盒子放在后备箱里，开了四个小时的车。
You weren't a big, fancy corporate retailer, wholesaler.
你不是一家大型、高档的企业零售商、批发商。
And she fell in love with you.
她爱上了你。
It's an incredible story.
这是一个令人难以置信的故事。
Ronnen Harary: Thank you.
罗南·哈拉里：谢谢。
Yeah--no. What you're saying proved true because she invited me back four years later to speak to underprivileged youth in Detroit, and so that proved the case that she was super passionate about young people.
是的——不。你说的事实被证明是正确的，因为四年后她邀请我回来向底特律的贫困青年演讲，这证明了她对年轻人非常热情。
But, it's 100% like everybody is rooting for you all the time.
但是，就像每个人都 100% 一直支持你一样。
I also think that it's like when you're around older people, especially people that are in their middle age, you're also giving them an opportunity to give back--so, to give back from their wisdom and their insight and to share, and also to feel that youthful energy again.
我还认为，就像当你和老年人在一起时，尤其是中年人，你也在给他们一个回馈的机会——所以，用他们的智慧和洞察力回馈并分享，也让他们再次感受到年轻的能量。
So, I think that people leaning into that is important and to know that you're actually giving an opportunity to someone to do some goodness in life.
所以，我认为人们倾向于这一点很重要，并且要知道你实际上是在为某人提供一个在生活中做一些好事的机会。
It's like charity, live charity.
这就像慈善事业，活生生的慈善事业。
It's not even charity, but it's just live--
这甚至不是慈善事业，但这只是现场直播——
Russ Roberts: It's a human connection.
拉斯·罗伯茨：这是人与人之间的联系。
It's a beautiful human connection.
这是一种美好的人际关系。
One of the themes of the book is that business is underrated.
这本书的主题之一是商业被低估。
That's not the way you say it.
你不是这么说的。
She changed her life.
她改变了她的生活。
She made some money for Kmart.
她为凯马特赚了一些钱。
You made some money from it; but it opened a door for you that might not have opened.
你从中赚了一些钱；但它为你打开了一扇可能没有打开的门。
You might have ended up doing something totally different that--we'll get to in a little bit, how transformative it was for you, but that little--yeah, there were seven to choose from.
你可能最终会做一些完全不同的事情——我们稍后会谈到它对你来说有多大的变革，但是那一点——是的，有七个可供选择。
Maybe she liked some of the others a little better: but you're in person and you're young and you're probably unbelievably passionate.
也许她更喜欢其他一些人：但你是一个人，你很年轻，而且你可能充满难以置信的热情。
I wish we had a video of that presentation.
我希望我们有该演示的视频。
Ronnen Harary: I'll tell you, not only did she change our lives, but she changed other people's lives.
Ronnen Harary：我告诉你，她不仅改变了我们的生活，也改变了其他人的生活。
Ronnen Harary: To produce that quantity, we actually had 200 people in our factory in downtown Toronto working, and two of the people came from a homeless shelter.
Ronnen Harary：为了生产这个数量，我们位于多伦多市中心的工厂实际上有 200 名员工工作，其中两人来自无家可归者收容所。
One, his name was Bob Wakeland[?], and he was running the production.
第一，他的名字叫鲍勃·韦克兰[？]，他负责制作。
And without him, we would have never been able to produce all that product.
没有他，我们将永远无法生产所有这些产品。
There was another gentleman, his name was Grenville[?], and he ran the shipping department.
还有另一位绅士，他的名字叫格伦维尔[？]，他负责运输部门。
So, it made a really big impact on more than just us.
所以，它不仅对我们产生了巨大的影响。
It touched a lot of people.
它感动了很多人。
Russ Roberts: You're selling them to them for a buck-60 [$1.60], and they're retailing them for $4.99.
Russ Roberts：你以 60 美元 [1.60 美元] 的价格将它们卖给他们，而他们的零售价为 4.99 美元。
Russ Roberts: And, they end up selling one and a half million Earth Buddies to their customers.
拉斯·罗伯茨：而且，他们最终向客户出售了五十万个地球伙伴。
Speculate--there's no easy answer to this--but you recognize a couple of times in the book that certain products catch fire and then they die.
推测——这个问题没有简单的答案——但你在书中多次发现某些产品着火，然后就死掉了。
This caught fire in a way that I would not have predicted.
这件事以一种我无法预料的方式引起了轰动。
I would not have invested in it on your behalf.
我不会代表你投资它。
But, why do you think it caught fire?
但是，你认为它为什么会着火呢？
But, once it caught fire, why did it then--you know, we call it a novelty item.
但是，一旦着火了，为什么会这样——你知道，我们称之为新奇物品。
It's a thing for a while, and then it's not a thing.
有一段时间它是一个东西，然后它就不再是一个东西了。
Talk about that.
谈谈那个。
Ronnen Harary: Well, novelty products are something you want to experience once or twice, and then once you've experienced it, you want to move on to something else.
Ronnen Harary：嗯，新奇的产品是指你想体验一两次的东西，然后一旦你体验过它，你就想转向其他东西。
So, it has, like, a peak magic to it, but the magic only lasts for a certain period of time.
所以，它就像是一个巅峰魔法，但魔法只能持续一段时间。
And, it was just a moment.
而且，这只是一瞬间。
It was a moment.
那是一个时刻。
People had never seen it before.
人们以前从未见过它。
I also think the velocity sale--we sold so many, everybody got an opportunity to try it, and then they just moved on to something else.
我还认为速度销售——我们卖了很多，每个人都有机会尝试，然后他们就转向其他东西。
But, we were very cognizant of that.
但是，我们对此非常认识。
We intuitively knew it ourselves, that it was a novelty product, and so we were eagerly looking for: what are we going to follow this up with?
我们凭直觉知道这是一个新奇的产品，所以我们急切地寻找：我们要跟进什么？
Russ Roberts: As you're telling that story, I'm thinking about one of the--I'm not a big buyer of novelty products, but I remember the Singing Fish, which was a plaque on the wall.
拉斯·罗伯茨：当你讲述这个故事时，我正在思考其中一个——我不是新奇产品的大买家，但我记得唱歌的鱼，它是墙上的一块牌匾。
Do you remember this?
你还记得这个吗？
Ronnen Harary: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
罗南·哈拉里：是的，是的，是的，是的，是的。
It was a Billy Bass.
这是比利·巴斯。
Russ Roberts: Yeah.
拉斯·罗伯茨：是的。
It would sing 'Don't Worry, Be Happy.' And it's utterly delightful the first eight times.
它会唱“别担心，要快乐”。前八次非常令人愉快。
After that, it's not as interesting.
在那之后，就没那么有趣了。
But it's delightful, and you buy it for the delight.
但它很令人愉快，你是为了高兴才买它的。
If it's not too expensive, you're happy to have it eight times.
如果不是太贵的话，八次就很开心了。
Russ Roberts: Now, your second product, which was another fad that caught fire, were Devil Sticks.
Russ Roberts：现在，你们的第二个产品是 Devil Sticks，它也是另一款炙手可热的时尚产品。
You saw some kids in a park.
你在公园里看到了一些孩子。
Devil Sticks--describe what they are, first.
魔鬼棒——首先描述一下它们是什么。
Ronnen Harary: Devil Sticks are what I would describe as a three-piece juggling set.
Ronnen Harary：Devil Sticks 是我所说的三件套杂耍套装。
You have two sticks you hold, one in each hand, and then you have a big stick that's weighted on the edge, on the ends.
你拿着两根棍子，每只手拿着一根，然后你还有一根大棍子，其边缘和两端都有重量。
And it's got nice tassels.
而且它有漂亮的流苏。
And you hit it back and forth.
然后你来回击打它。
And, because it's weighted, it starts to spin.
而且，因为它有重量，所以它开始旋转。
As a result of spinning, you can do lots of different tricks with it.
通过旋转，你可以用它做很多不同的动作。
Russ Roberts: So, this went crazy also.
拉斯·罗伯茨：所以，这也很疯狂。
This sold for $14.99.
该售价为 14.99 美元。
You sold another one-and-a-half million of those.
你又卖掉了其中的五十万。
Russ Roberts: The puzzle--why anyone would pay for sticks .
拉斯·罗伯茨：这个谜题——为什么有人愿意花钱买棍子。
So, there's tassels.
所以，有流苏。
The ones you saw in the park were homemade.
你在公园里看到的那些都是自制的。
Russ Roberts: So, you saw an opportunity here to make something easier that they wouldn't have to go to the trouble of finding the right size and all that.
拉斯·罗伯茨：所以，你在这里看到了一个让事情变得更容易的机会，这样他们就不必费心寻找合适的尺寸等等。
Ronnen Harary: Well, it was a couple things.
Ronnen Harary：嗯，有几件事。
One is I used to actually play with them in high school myself.
一是我自己在高中时就经常和他们一起玩。
I used to go to some Grateful Dead shows, and my buddy made some, and he sold them at some of the Grateful Dead shows.
我曾经去看一些感恩而死乐队的演出，我的朋友做了一些，然后他在一些感恩而死乐队的演出上卖掉了它们。
So, in my mind, it was for people that were in their late teens and 1920s, and more for hippies.
所以，在我看来，它适合十几岁和 1920 年代的人，更适合嬉皮士。
Bu, what caught my imagination was: Why are 10-year-olds playing with this?
但是，让我浮想联翩的是：为什么10岁的孩子会玩这个？
Why do they like it?
他们为什么喜欢它？
Why are they making them in schoolyards or playing with them in school yards?
他们为什么要在校园里制作它们或在校园里玩它们？
So, it was just that notion that gave us the feeling that maybe something was in the ether.
所以，正是这个想法让我们感觉也许有什么东西存在于以太之中。
There was something in the zeitgeist for kids around this.
围绕这一点，有一些孩子们的时代精神。
And we had the factory, and it was: Let's just give it a try.
我们有工厂，它是：让我们尝试一下。
We have a factory.
我们有一家工厂。
We can make some prototypes, go to retail, make some packaging.
我们可以制作一些原型，进行零售，制作一些包装。
It was just a sense that younger kids were excited about this particular product, and that was the analysis that we made.
这只是一种感觉，年幼的孩子对这个特定的产品感到兴奋，这就是我们所做的分析。
Ronnen Harary: No, we don't sell them today.
Ronnen Harary：不，我们今天不卖它们。
Russ Roberts: But, you can buy them somewhere.
拉斯·罗伯茨：但是，你可以在某个地方买到它们。
Ronnen Harary: You can buy them somewhere.
Ronnen Harary：你可以在某处购买它们。
But, again, with the Earth Buddy, it was a moment in time for kids.
但是，对于地球伙伴来说，这对孩子们来说又是一个及时的时刻。
The same thing like a yo-yo.
就像溜溜球一样。
Yo-yos had, like--back in the day, they were so big.
过去，溜溜球太大了。
You can still buy them today, but they're probably a 10th of what they sell when they were really hot and popular.
今天你仍然可以买到它们，但它们的销量可能只是它们真正流行时的十分之一。
And there's also just, like, a moment where kids, everybody, all the kids are playing with them and they're talking about them; and that's when you tap into the zeitgeist of that particular moment for kids.
还有一个时刻，孩子们，每个人，所有的孩子都在和他们一起玩，他们在谈论他们；这就是你为孩子们挖掘那个特定时刻的时代精神的时候。
You get this crazy amplification effect where it's actually--it was just our product was great.
你会得到这种疯狂的放大效应，事实上，这只是我们的产品很棒。
It was good quality.
质量很好。
It was a good price.
这是一个很好的价格。
It was nicely designed.
它设计得很好。
But, what really sold it was the moment more than anything else.
但是，真正卖掉它的是那一刻，而不是其他任何东西。
Russ Roberts: What did you do, if anything?
拉斯·罗伯茨：如果有的话，你做了什么？
I'm sure you tried to accelerate the fad part, the 'everybody's talking about it'-part.
我确信你试图加速时尚部分，即“每个人都在谈论它”的部分。
Ronnen Harary: We leaned in.
Ronnen Harary：我们靠了过来。
We got vans.
我们有货车。
We hired college students, and they went on tour, and they basically went to universities, and they were flipping the sticks from school to school to school.
我们雇佣了大学生，他们去巡演，他们基本上都去了大学，他们从一个学校转到另一个学校。
We filmed our first commercial, and we did some media advertising with it.
我们拍摄了第一个广告，并用它做了一些媒体广告。
We were leaning into what's today is called earned media, but back in the day, it was PR [Public Relations].
我们倾向于今天所谓的免费媒体，但在当时，它是 PR [公共关系]。
So, we were getting on TV.
所以，我们上了电视。
We were getting written up in magazines, newspapers.
我们被杂志、报纸报道。
We didn't have that much money.
我们没有那么多钱。
I was the model.
我是模特。
You can still see my picture on the side of the van today.
今天你仍然可以在货车侧面看到我的照片。
So, we were marketing it like crazy.
所以，我们疯狂地营销它。
We were out on the road.
我们在路上。
Russ Roberts: And your next product--by the way, what's fun about this story is if you had said to me, 'How do you become the fourth biggest toy company in the world?' this is not how I would have imagined.
拉斯·罗伯茨：你的下一个产品——顺便说一句，这个故事的有趣之处在于，如果你对我说，“你是如何成为世界第四大玩具公司的？”这不是我想象的。
I'm not sure how I would have thought about it, but you were basically just a couple of young--I was going to say kids--in your mid-20s, early 20s.
我不知道我会怎么想，但你们基本上只是几个年轻人——我想说的是孩子——20多岁、20岁出头。
You had some interesting ideas, and you're selling them, and you're making some money, which is nice.
你有一些有趣的想法，你正在出售它们，并且你赚了一些钱，这很好。
Then you take a big leap.
然后你就迈出了一大步。
You make these things called Air Hogs, which is a plane that flies and lands and you can use more than once.
你制造的这些东西被称为“Air Hogs”，这是一种可以飞行和降落的飞机，你可以多次使用。
You go from a product of sawdust in a nylon stocking with grass seed; then weighted sticks with some design elements; to a airplane, which--you write about it, we won't go into it--but there's terribly challenging design and manufacturing problems.
您将木屑产品放入带有草籽的尼龙袜中；然后用一些设计元素加重木棍；飞机——你写一下，我们不会讨论它——但其中存在极具挑战性的设计和制造问题。
One of which is, is that when the plane lands, the wings tend to break; and it's done.
其中之一是，当飞机着陆时，机翼往往会折断；一切都完成了。
So, how did you solve that problem, and was it really solved more or less?
那么，您是如何解决这个问题的，是否确实或多或少地解决了？
Ronnen Harary: It was solved.
Ronnen Harary：问题已经解决了。
The first two weeks when product actually shipped, it wasn't solved.
产品实际发货的前两周，问题并没有得到解决。
It wasn't 100%, so we had to do some quick modifications.
它不是 100%，所以我们必须做一些快速修改。
But, yeah, no: we solved it through great engineering and design.
但是，是的，不：我们通过出色的工程和设计解决了这个问题。
The wings would pop off on impact.
机翼会在撞击时弹出。
That's how we did it.
我们就是这样做的。
So, you have to put them back on every single time.
所以，你每次都必须把它们放回去。
Russ Roberts: It's actually a deep lesson.
拉斯·罗伯茨：这实际上是一个深刻的教训。
We used to talk about this all the time in the eight days after the 2008 Financial Crisis, that if you want to avoid the pain from, say, a financial crisis, most politicians and some policymakers, their prescription is, 'Don't let it happen again.' Whereas Arnold Kling, longtime guest on the program, argued the better strategy is: It's going to happen again.
在2008年金融危机后的八天里，我们一直在谈论这一点，如果你想避免金融危机带来的痛苦，大多数政客和一些政策制定者的处方是，“不要让它再次发生”。而该节目的长期嘉宾阿诺德·克林则认为，更好的策略是：这种情况会再次发生。
If you keep it from happening, when it does happen, it's going to be even worse.
如果你阻止它发生，当它发生时，情况会更糟。
So, instead of trying to prevent it from happening, try to reduce the cost of when it happens.
因此，与其试图阻止它发生，不如尝试降低它发生时的成本。
So, to design a wing that breaks on purpose is a genius idea because you can put it back on.
所以，设计一个故意断裂的机翼是一个天才的想法，因为你可以把它装回去。
So, that sells 35 million in the first nine months.
因此，前 9 个月的销量为 3500 万辆。
So, you're killing it with that again.
所以，你又用这个杀死了它。
You produce different kinds.
你生产不同种类的产品。
And you're going along; and then you had a bunch of failures, which is part of life.
而你也跟着走；然后你经历了很多失败，这是生活的一部分。
But then, you hit two rather extraordinary home runs.
但随后，你打出了两个非同寻常的本垒打。
I have to confess, partly because of the nature of my life and my children, I had not heard of these, but I'm sure many of our listeners--you're going to pronounce them, you'll correct my pronunciation, Bakugan and PAW Patrol.
我必须承认，部分是因为我的生活和我的孩子的性质，我没有听说过这些，但我确信我们的许多听众 - 你会发音它们，你会纠正我的发音，Bakugan 和 PAW Patrol。
Is Bakugan correct?
爆丸是正确的吗？
Ronnen Harary: Great.
罗南·哈拉里：太好了。
Great pronunciation.
发音很棒。
Russ Roberts: For those who don't know what it is, tell us what Bakugan is.
Russ Roberts：对于那些不知道它是什么的人，请告诉我们 Bakugan 是什么。
Ronnen Harary: Bakugan, it's a cross between Transformers and Beyblade.
Ronnen Harary：Bakugan，它是变形金刚和陀螺陀螺的结合体。
Basically, it's a round marble that you roll onto a card.
基本上，它是一个可以滚动到卡片上的圆形弹珠。
In the marble, there's a magnet and a little spring.
大理石里有一块磁铁和一个小弹簧。
When the marble hits the card, it pops open and transforms, and there's just this magical feedback that you just get, and surprise: And it opens up into this character--and we made hundreds of different types of characters.
当弹珠击中卡片时，它会弹开并变形，您就会收到令人惊讶的神奇反馈：它会打开这个角色 - 我们制作了数百种不同类型的角色。
And then you would roll yours onto the card, and we would battle.
然后你将你的滚到卡上，我们就会战斗。
Each character had a point number, and then you flip the card open, and then there were sigils [magical symbols--Econlib Ed.] that matched up to--there's signs that matched up to what was in your Bakugan, and we would start to battle.
每个角色都有一个点数，然后你翻开卡片，然后就会出现与你的爆丸中的符号相匹配的符文[魔法符号——Econlib Ed.]，然后我们就开始战斗。
So, that was the toy.
所以，这就是玩具。
It was invented by a 23-year-old inventor who had the idea of putting an action figure inside a marble.
它是由一位 23 岁的发明家发明的，他的想法是将一个可动人偶放入弹珠中。
And so, Ben Dermer, at the time, we're always looking for ideas from wherever they came from.
因此，Ben Dermer，当时我们一直在寻找来自任何地方的想法。
That was our philosophy in our company.
这就是我们公司的理念。
And we licensed the idea, but we only developed it to certain points, and then we actually took it to Japan and partnered with a company by the name of Sega Toys, and they added this genius of the pop-open transformation and the piece of metal that was laminated in a card format.
我们许可了这个想法，但我们只将其发展到某些程度，然后我们实际上将其带到日本并与一家名为世嘉玩具的公司合作，他们添加了这种弹出式变形的天才以及以卡片格式层压的金属片。
They called it Bakugan.
他们称之为“爆丸”。
It was the craziest thing.
这是最疯狂的事情。
I went to Japan.
我去了日本。
I'd been going to Japan for, like, five years, and we hadn't done very much business there, but they were so good with mechanisms and they're so creative that I just had a hunch that they would be able to help us with this product.
我去日本已经五年了，我们在那里没有做太多生意，但他们的机制非常好，而且非常有创意，我有一种预感，他们能够帮助我们开发这个产品。
So, I pitched it to Tomy [a Japanese toy company].
所以，我把它推荐给 Tomy（一家日本玩具公司）。
They turned us down.
他们拒绝了我们。
I pitched it to Bandai.
我把它推荐给了万代。
They turned us down.
他们拒绝了我们。
Mr. Kokubun, who didn't speak a stitch of English--no English--he said, 'Yes.' And then I came back two months later, and he added this whole incredible innovation to the product.
国分先生一点英语也不会说——没有英语——他说：“是的。”两个月后我回来了，他将这一令人难以置信的创新添加到了产品中。
At which point I said to him, 'How would you feel about doing a television show?' Because, the thing in Japan is that they mastered the art form of innovation with animation, with storytelling, and they blended the two together, and they have no problems having both of them live in the same world.
这时我对他说：“你觉得拍电视节目怎么样？”因为，日本的事情是他们掌握了动画、讲故事的创新艺术形式，他们将两者融合在一起，他们生活在同一个世界没有任何问题。
So, things like Beyblade or Transformers that came before Bakugan, they all have TV shows attached to the toy.
因此，像《爆丸》之前出现的《陀螺陀螺》或《变形金刚》这样的玩具，它们都附有电视节目。
So, I said to him, 'How would you feel about doing a 52-episode animation?' And he said to me, 'Well, let's do it.
所以，我对他说，‘你觉得制作一部 52 集的动画怎么样？他对我说，‘好吧，我们就这么做吧。
It's going to cost $12 million dollars.
它将花费1200万美元。
Do you have $6?' I said to him, 'Let me get back to you.' So, I went home, spoke to my partners, and eventually came back and said, 'Let's give it a try.' And, that's Bakugan.
你有 6 美元吗？我对他说：“让我给你回复。”所以，我回到家，和我的合作伙伴交谈，最后回来说：“让我们尝试一下。”而且，那是爆丸。
But, I do want to state something because you're going from success to success, and I will say that there's a lot of failures along the way.
但是，我确实想说一些事情，因为你正在从成功走向成功，我会说一路上有很多失败。
The precursor for Bakugan was Beyblade, because five years before that, I'd gone to Japan--and Beyblade, for the listeners, is a spinning top.
《Bakugan》的前身是《Beyblade》，因为五年前我去了日本，而《Beyblade》对于听众来说是一个旋转的陀螺。
It's got a rip cord.
它有一根撕裂绳。
It's also a battling toy, but they're battling by movement.
这也是一个战斗玩具，但它们是通过动作来战斗的。
So, two spinning tops in a tray, and they're moving around, and they hit each other; and then when the one top gets pushed out of the tray in the arena, then the one that's still in there is the winner.
所以，托盘里有两个旋转的陀螺，它们四处移动，然后互相撞击；然后，当竞技场中的一个顶部被推出托盘时，仍在托盘中的那个就是获胜者。
But back in 2001, five years before Bakugan, I was pitched the idea from Takara Tomy, and I turned it down.
但早在 2001 年，也就是爆丸问世的五年前，Takara Tomy 就向我提出了这个想法，但我拒绝了。
And it went on to become a multi-billion-dollar franchise, multi-billion-dollar toy line.
它后来成为一个价值数十亿美元的特许经营权、价值数十亿美元的玩具系列。
Ronnen Harary: Beyblade, that went to Hasbro.
Ronnen Harary：陀螺陀螺，属于孩之宝。
Russ Roberts: And you thought, 'I'm not going to let that happen again.'
拉斯·罗伯茨：你想，“我不会让这种事再次发生。”
Ronnen Harary: Well, I was, like, 'When we get our shots, we're going to try to create our own Beyblade when the moment arises.'
Ronnen Harary：嗯，我当时想，“当我们获得镜头时，我们将在时机成熟时尝试创建我们自己的陀螺陀螺。”
Russ Roberts: So, it's exploiting the--and I went online and looked at some videos of--the first one I found, by the way, on YouTube of Bakugans rolling onto the cards and popping open, it's very beautiful.
拉斯·罗伯茨：所以，它正在利用——我上网看了一些视频——顺便说一句，我在 YouTube 上发现的第一个视频是爆丸滚到卡片上然后突然打开的，它非常漂亮。
It had two views, that video.
那个视频有两种观点。
I, by myself, create a 50% increase in the views of that video.
我凭一己之力使该视频的观看次数增加了 50%。
So, you have the visual excitement of that.
所以，你会感到视觉上的兴奋。
It's cool.
这很酷。
That's a little bit like the talking fish: it's, like, the first 20 times is very fun.
这有点像会说话的鱼：前 20 次非常有趣。
After the 21st, you want to do something else.
21号之后，你想做点别的事情。
What it does is it fights with these other toys.
它的作用是与其他玩具打架。
But--the next level is what's extraordinary--is to create a narrative universe for children.
但是，下一个层次是非凡的，那就是为孩子们创造一个叙事世界。
It's less interesting for adults, but for children, it's endlessly fascinating for them to inhabit that universe of the TV show where these characters are doing other things besides rolling onto a card.
对于成年人来说，这不太有趣，但对于孩子来说，生活在电视节目的宇宙中对他们来说是无尽的吸引力，其中这些角色除了滚到卡片上之外还做其他事情。
So, when then you roll it onto the card, you have an emotional resonance that's different than just, 'Oh, that's cool.
所以，当你把它滚到卡片上时，你会产生一种情感共鸣，而不仅仅是“哦，那太酷了”。
That's pretty.' It's, 'Oh, this is that character who last week on the show did X, Y, Z.'
真漂亮。它是，“哦，这就是上周在节目中做了 X、Y、Z 的那个角色。”
Ronnen Harary: Correct.
罗南·哈拉里：正确。
You described it really well.
你描述得非常好。
The characters on the show, when they popped open, transformed: they grow to a hundred-foot monsters.
剧中的角色，当他们突然打开时，发生了转变：他们长成了一百英尺高的怪物。
So many different characters.
这么多不同的角色。
But you did get very vested in certain characters.
但你确实对某些角色非常有归属感。
Like, Drago was the main character.
就像德拉戈是主角一样。
And there's a whole bunch of other ones.
还有一大堆其他的。
Yeah, you had your favorite characters that you fantasized about.
是的，你有你最喜欢的、你幻想过的角色。
You know, I write about it in the prologue of the book: What really dawned on me, I was in South Africa a few years ago on holiday, and I hired a tennis pro, and we hit.
你知道，我在书的序言中写到了这一点：几年前我在南非度假，我雇佣了一位网球职业选手，我们真正意识到了这一点。
It was a great hour.
这是一个美好的时刻。
I loved the kid.
我爱这个孩子。
He was 22 years old.
当时他22岁。
He asked me at the end, he said, 'What have you been doing?
最后他问我，‘你最近在做什么？
What's been your journey?' And, I told him about everything.
你的旅程是什么？而且，我把一切都告诉了他。
I told him about Bakugan.
我告诉他关于爆丸的事。
And, he next day he came back, and we hit again, but he brought me his box of 25 Earth Buddies--sorry, 25 Bakugan--in mint condition.
第二天他回来了，我们又见面了，但他给我带来了他那盒 25 颗地球伙伴——对不起，是 25 颗爆丸——完好无损。
Mint condition.
完好无损。
And he was so happy to show me everything.
他很高兴向我展示一切。
And he was 22, and he still had them from when he was eight years old.
他今年 22 岁了，八岁的时候就还留着这些。
And it was the craziest thing for me, because what dawned on me in that time--and it had never dawned on me ever before--was that we created Bakugan, but this kid lived it.
这对我来说是最疯狂的事情，因为当时我突然意识到——这是我以前从未意识到的——我们创造了爆丸，但这个孩子却活了下来。
So, that fantasy that you just described before was a lived experience for him for three or four years of his life.
所以，你刚才描述的那种幻想是他三四年来的生活经历。
And it was totally different than my relationship to it.
这与我和它的关系完全不同。
And so it was quite a moment for me.
这对我来说是一个非常重要的时刻。
Russ Roberts: No, it's really beautiful.
拉斯·罗伯茨：不，它真的很漂亮。
We're going to come back and talk about that because I think--I think it's very difficult in the pace of life and the speed of life to remember what else happened beside what happened to you.
我们会回来讨论这个问题，因为我认为，在生活的节奏和速度中，很难记住除了发生在你身上的事情之外还发生过什么。
So, there's a beautiful book--I'm forgetting the name.
所以，有一本很漂亮的书——我忘了名字了。
I'll put it in the notes to the show when we put this out.
当我们发布这个时，我会把它放在节目的注释中。
But, it was about somebody who developed, I think, a medical device and had gotten very wealthy from it.
但是，我认为这是关于某人开发了一种医疗设备并从中致富的故事。
And, he developed a terminal illness, and he's going to die, as we all are.
而且，他得了绝症，他快要死了，就像我们所有人一样。
His friends put together an evening to honor him, but they invited people who had been helped by this device.
他的朋友们举办了一个晚上来纪念他，但他们邀请了那些曾受到该设备帮助的人。
And they all stood up and talked from the heart about how grateful they were to this man.
而他们都站了起来，发自内心地表达着对这个男人的感激之情。
This sounds absurd, but I think it's a very common human experience--he didn't spend a lot of time thinking about that.
这听起来很荒谬，但我认为这是一个非常普遍的人类经历——他没有花很多时间思考这一点。
He was busy making the product, making sure it worked right, complying with regulations, marketing, whatever it is.
他忙于制造产品，确保其正常工作，遵守法规，营销，无论是什么。
And that's your focus.
这就是你的焦点。
Which is normal and for the best.
这是正常的，也是最好的。
But, he didn't spend much time--partly because it's unseen--savoring his denting the world in that way.
但是，他并没有花太多时间——部分是因为这是看不见的——品味他以这种方式对世界造成的影响。
And I think business--you know, people have a very cold, negative, sometimes negative view of words where it said buying and getting and spending, we lay waste our powers.
我认为商业——你知道，人们对那些说购买、获得和支出的词有一种非常冷漠、消极、有时是消极的看法，我们浪费了我们的权力。
That's the best critique of commercial life.
这是对商业生活最好的批判。
I think it misses what commercial life is really about.
我认为它忽略了商业生活的真正含义。
It's not about getting and spending.
这与获取和支出无关。
It's about touching people's lives.
这是关于触及人们的生活。
Now, some products don't do it.
现在，有些产品不这样做。
Some don't do it well.
有些人做得不好。
Some harm people.
有的害人。
We all understand that.
我们都明白这一点。
But, you created a world for this boy, that he wanted to still live in.
但是，你为这个男孩创造了一个他仍然想生活在其中的世界。
It's like rereading a book that you loved as a child.
这就像重读一本你小时候喜欢的书。
He wants to have that book around.
他想要那本书。
It's an incredible thing.
这是一件不可思议的事情。
And it's easy to forget.
而且很容易忘记。
So, it's cool that you were able to experience that in a tangible way.
所以，很高兴您能够以切实的方式体验这一点。
Ronnen Harary: Yeah.
罗南·哈拉里：是的。
Very much so.
非常如此。
Very much so.
非常如此。
Russ Roberts: Do you have any Bakugans in your life right now?
拉斯·罗伯茨：你现在的生活中有爆丸吗？
Ronnen Harary: I have a whole collection in my office.
Ronnen Harary：我的办公室里有一整套收藏。
Russ Roberts: How many are there in that collection?
拉斯·罗伯茨：这个收藏中有多少张？
Ronnen Harary: I don't know.
罗南·哈拉里：我不知道。
Maybe 20, 30.
也许20、30。
I have the original ones.
我有原版的。
Russ Roberts: How many are there altogether?
拉斯·罗伯茨：一共有多少人？
Ronnen Harary: What do you mean, altogether?
Ronnen Harary：你这是什么意思？
That have been produced in the world?
世界上已经生产出来了吗？
Russ Roberts: No. Well, you can tell me that, too.
拉斯·罗伯茨：不。好吧，你也可以告诉我这一点。
I'm curious, what is that?
我很好奇，那是什么？
Ronnen Harary: In the world?
Ronnen Harary：在世界上？
Probably, like, I don't know, maybe a billion Bakugan.
可能，我不知道，也许是十亿爆丸。
Russ Roberts: So, you have 20 of them.
Russ Roberts：所以，你有 20 个。
But they're different characters, right?
但他们是不同的角色，对吧？
So, you have--
所以，你有——
Ronnen Harary: They have different characters.
Ronnen Harary：他们有不同的性格。
Ronnen Harary: I have different characters from different years, and I have prototypes.
Ronnen Harary：不同年代我有不同的角色，我有原型。
I have a whole mishmash, probably.
我可能有一个大杂烩。
Russ Roberts: But, you don't have the complete set.
拉斯·罗伯茨：但是，你没有完整的套装。
Ronnen Harary: In our archive, we have the complete set.
Ronnen Harary：在我们的档案中，我们有完整的套装。
In my office, I have a mishmash.
我的办公室里一片混乱。
So, then that's an incredible success.
所以，这是一个令人难以置信的成功。
Only sells a few, a hundred million or a billion.
只卖几个，一个亿，一个十亿。
Russ Roberts: And then, your next project that's like this, that has this narrative component--television, movie component now--and then the physical device that stimulates the imagination and resonates with the movie and the TV show, is PAW Patrol.
拉斯·罗伯茨：然后，你的下一个项目就是这样的，有这种叙事成分——现在是电视、电影成分——然后是激发想象力并与电影和电视节目产生共鸣的物理设备，那就是狗狗巡逻队。
So, I didn't know what it was.
所以，我不知道那是什么。
I got online; but tell me what it is.
我上网了；但请告诉我那是什么。
Ronnen Harary: PAW Patrol is a wonderful TV show about five dogs that each have their own archetype that are led by their leader, Ryder, who is a 12-year-old kid who has got his own ATV [All-Terrain Vehicle].
Ronnen Harary：PAW Patrol 是一部精彩的电视节目，讲述了五只狗的故事，每只狗都有自己的原型，由它们的领导者 Ryder 领导，Ryder 是一个 12 岁的孩子，拥有自己的 ATV [全地形车]。
They all live in Adventure Bay.
他们都住在冒险湾。
Whenever there's a calamity in Adventure Bay, Ryder picks certain pups to solve the calamity.
每当冒险湾发生灾难时，莱德都会挑选某些小狗来解决灾难。
So, you have Marshall [?Chase?], who is the police dog, and he's kind of like Batman in a puppy.
所以，你有马歇尔[？蔡斯？]，他是警犬，他有点像小狗里的蝙蝠侠。
Then you have Marshall--he's the fire dog, the fire puppy.
然后是马歇尔——他是火狗，火小狗。
Skye, and she's got her own incredible helicopter and jet.
斯凯，她拥有自己令人难以置信的直升机和喷气式飞机。
Zuma is an amazing puppy that goes underwater.
祖玛是一只神奇的小狗，它会潜入水下。
You got Rocky, who is a recycling pup.
你有洛基，他是一只回收小狗。
And, whenever there's calamity in Adventure Bay, they go out and they solve issues.
而且，每当冒险湾发生灾难时，他们都会出去解决问题。
I call them mitzvah pups.
我称它们为成人礼小狗。
They're basically doing good in the world, solving problems, and doing it with collaborating in a really wonderful way.
他们基本上是在为世界做好事，解决问题，并以一种非常美妙的方式进行合作。
Russ Roberts: So, there's some virtue education going on here that makes parents eager to let their kids watch this.
拉斯·罗伯茨：所以，这里正在进行一些美德教育，这使得父母渴望让他们的孩子观看这个。
It's not edgy or hip and rebellious, presumably.
想必它并不前卫、时髦和叛逆。
Am I getting that right?
我说得对吗？
Ronnen Harary: No: it's high-paced and exciting for preschoolers.
Ronnen Harary：不：对于学龄前儿童来说，它节奏很快且令人兴奋。
Because, basically what happens is they go up the tower--whenever there's calamity, they get called into the tower.
因为，基本上发生的事情就是他们上塔——每当有灾难时，他们就会被叫进塔里。
They're out playing, and then Ryder calls them, and they run into the elevator of the tower.
他们出去玩，然后莱德打电话给他们，他们跑进了塔楼的电梯。
Marshall always does something funny in every episode.
马歇尔在每一集里总是做一些有趣的事情。
Then they go up the tower.
然后他们就上了塔。
As they go up the tower, they transform into their backpacks.
当他们爬上塔楼时，他们就会变成背包。
So, each puppy has a special backpack that does amazing magical things.
所以，每只小狗都有一个特殊的背包，可以做一些神奇的事情。
Then they all stand in formation; and then on a screen, Ryder's describing the mission.
然后他们都站成队形；然后屏幕上，莱德正在描述这次任务。
Then they pick certain pups, and they go down this incredible slide, and they pop out and jump into their doghouse that transforms into a vehicle, and then they go off into the adventure.
然后他们挑选某些小狗，沿着这个令人难以置信的滑梯滑下去，然后跳出来跳进狗屋，狗屋变成了一辆汽车，然后他们就开始了冒险。
So, it's imbued with transformation.
所以，它充满了转变。
It's imbued with excitement and speed and action, and then collaboration.
它充满了兴奋、速度和行动，然后是协作。
And a solve.
并解决。
Ronnen Harary: There's stakes in every episode.
Ronnen Harary：每一集都有赌注。
Russ Roberts: Somebody had to imagine all those creative things.
拉斯·罗伯茨：必须有人去想象所有这些创造性的东西。
Who were they?
他们是谁？
Was it a team?
这是一个团队吗？
Was it a--
难道是——
Ronnen Harary: It was the most incredible team.
Ronnen Harary：这是最不可思议的团队。
So, the original concept was developed by a gentleman by the name of Keith Chapman, and he's an incredible storyteller from the United Kingdom.
因此，最初的概念是由一位名叫基思·查普曼 (Keith Chapman) 的绅士提出的，他是一位来自英国的令人难以置信的讲故事的人。
He's the creator of Bob the Builder, and I had known him for--yeah.
他是鲍勃建造者的创造者，我认识他是因为——是的。
You know, the English are the best storytellers in the world.
你知道，英国人是世界上最擅长讲故事的人。
When it comes to kids' animation, they're amazing.
说到儿童动画，它们非常棒。
I'd wanted to work with them for, like, 10-plus years--for a long time.
我想和他们一起工作大概十多年了——很长一段时间。
So, we had sent out a brief to five different creators around the world, asking them to come to us with some sort of idea that would match up with transformation for preschoolers.
因此，我们向世界各地的五位不同的创作者发出了一份简报，要求他们向我们提出某种与学龄前儿童转型相匹配的想法。
So, Keith came back with this whole idea with the archetype that I just explained to you.
所以，基思带着我刚刚向你解释的原型回来了整个想法。
So, we took that idea, and then we found writers, and they wrote based on his idea.
所以，我们接受了这个想法，然后我们找到了作家，他们根据他的想法进行写作。
We found an incredible animation studio, and we started developing the characters and the look and the feel.
我们找到了一家令人难以置信的动画工作室，然后我们开始开发角色、外观和感觉。
We took toy designers--his was kind of from our experience from Bakugan, but no one had done it in North America--we took toy designers, which is a very specific art in terms of the look and feel and also the play pattern, and we mashed[?matched?] them up with the animators and the storytellers.
我们聘请了玩具设计师——他的经验来自于我们在爆丸的经验，但在北美还没有人这么做——我们聘请了玩具设计师，从外观、感觉以及游戏模式来看，这是一门非常具体的艺术，我们将他们与动画师和故事讲述者结合起来。
We had them all sitting in the same room, sharing ideas, drawing over each other's art.
我们让他们坐在同一个房间里，分享想法，借鉴彼此的艺术作品。
Like, I'll never forget, Eric Cherney, who is a Hot Wheels designer--he was drawing over the animators' designs--vehicle designs.
就像，我永远不会忘记，埃里克·切尔尼（Eric Cherney），他是风火轮设计师——他正在绘制动画师的设计——车辆设计。
And then they would draw over his, and they would go back and forth.
然后他们会画他的，然后他们会来回走动。
There was creative friction there.
那里存在创造性的摩擦。
But, what we kind of intuitively knew from being in the toy business--PAW Patrol hit in our 19th year, so we'd been doing toys for 19 years, and so we took all our knowledge about what's aspirational for kids, and we put it into the story.
但是，我们从玩具行业直觉地知道，《狗狗巡逻队》在我们成立 19 年时就大受欢迎，所以我们做玩具已经有 19 年了，所以我们把所有关于孩子们渴望的东西的知识都融入到了故事中。
And then we started working with incredible storytellers who knew how to make characters resonate with you and made--why would you care for the characters--and we mashed it all up together.
然后我们开始与令人难以置信的讲故事的人合作，他们知道如何让角色与你产生共鸣，并提出——你为什么会关心这些角色——然后我们将它们混合在一起。
Then there was an incredible director, Jamie Whitney.
然后是一位令人难以置信的导演，杰米·惠特尼。
He was 52 or 53 at the time.
当时他52岁或53岁。
He had produced the most incredible children's television shows, probably like five that are like world class, Emmy Award winning.
他制作了最令人难以置信的儿童电视节目，可能有五部世界级的、荣获艾美奖的电视节目。
And he was just the nicest guy.
他是最好的人。
You see his niceness is in the way the characters are brought to life.
你会发现他的美好之处在于将人物塑造得栩栩如生。
And the writers are so nice.
而且编剧们都非常好。
It was probably one of the most amazing projects of people that just came to do their craft as best that they can do their craft.
这可能是人们最令人惊叹的项目之一，他们只是尽其所能地完成他们的手艺。
And no one did it: no one was dialing it in.
但没有人这么做：没有人拨通它。
No one thought that PAW Patrol would be what it has become today and how big it has become.
没有人想到狗狗巡逻队会发展成今天的样子，规模有多大。
It was more about just making it right in the moment.
更重要的是要在当下做正确的事情。
Russ Roberts: How did the physical creatures--the puppies--how well did they sell and how well did the movie do, or how well have they sold?
拉斯·罗伯茨：这些实体生物——小狗——卖得怎么样，电影卖得怎么样，或者说它们卖得怎么样？
Because it's still going.
因为它还在继续。
Ronnen Harary: Yeah.
罗南·哈拉里：是的。
So, we're in our 13th year of PAW Patrol.
现在，狗狗巡逻队已经进入第 13 个年头了。
Every year we do 52 episodes.
每年我们都会制作 52 集。
We do specials every year.
我们每年都会做特价活动。
We're now coming up with our third movie.
我们现在正在制作第三部电影。
It's coming out August 14th this year.
今年8月14日上映。
For us, everything was about--we started out and we said, 'Let's try to get to five years of PAW Patrol.' We said, 'Paw for five.' Then we said, 'Paw for 10.' And then, we said, 'Paw forever.'
对我们来说，一切都是关于——我们一开始就说，“让我们努力让狗狗巡逻队度过五年的时光。”我们说：“五爪。”然后我们说，“爪子换 10 个。”然后，我们说，“永远的爪子。”
So, we're always bringing new stories and excitement to the show--that comes to the kids--and then creating new toy lines around it; but we're very focused on just keeping everything fresh and new, but with the same tone and tenor of what the show is all about and never changing the tone and tenor, which is super, super important.
因此，我们总是为节目带来新的故事和刺激——这些都是针对孩子们的——然后围绕它创造新的玩具系列；但我们非常注重保持一切新鲜和新鲜，但与节目的内容保持相同的基调和基调，并且从不改变基调和基调，这是非常非常重要的。
Russ Roberts: So, when you have mini-series on Netflix or Amazon Prime, Apple TV, there's two things that are challenging.
Russ Roberts：所以，当你在 Netflix 或 Amazon Prime、Apple TV 上播放迷你剧时，有两件事具有挑战性。
One is characters: the actors get opportunities that they prefer to this show, or they get tired of it.
一是角色：演员们得到了他们喜欢这个节目的机会，或者他们厌倦了它。
So, the characters get killed off sometimes and they move on.
因此，角色有时会被杀死，然后继续前进。
The second is that the shtick of the show gets tired, so they have to come up with new things.
第二个是节目的噱头已经厌倦了，所以他们必须想出新的东西。
After a while, you realize they're just having fun with you as an audience member.
过了一会儿，你意识到他们只是作为观众与你一起玩乐。
The narrative doesn't hold together so well.
叙述不太连贯。
I'm just going to mention this as an exception.
我只是将其作为一个例外来提及。
One of my favorite shows is The Americans , which is an incredible show, for dialogue and plot.
我最喜欢的节目之一是《美国人》，这是一部令人难以置信的对话和情节节目。
One of the reasons I love about it is that it never, in seasons four or five, thought, 'Oh, we can't think of anything new, so let's have Martians come.' There's so much money to be made by the next season that they just--they get tired.
我喜欢它的原因之一是，在第四季或第五季中，它从来没有想过，“哦，我们想不出任何新东西，所以让火星人来吧。”下个赛季可以赚到的钱太多了，他们只是——他们累了。
Also, I assume they also might use second-tier writers or directors because the audience is kind of hooked and then they play it out, and eventually it loses an audience and that's the end of it.
另外，我认为他们也可能会使用二线编剧或导演，因为观众有点着迷，然后他们就把它演出来，最终失去观众，这就是结束。
But, how long?
但是，多久？
Thirteen years?
十三年？
So, how do you keep it--so, your actors never die because they're animated puppies.
那么，你如何保留它——所以，你的演员永远不会死，因为他们是动画小狗。
I mean, they can die, but they don't die because they get a chance to make a movie with so-and-so.
我的意思是，他们可以死，但他们不会死，因为他们有机会和某某一起拍电影。
But, your writers, what do you think--I can't judge whether the show is as good as it was 10 years ago or better, but if it's still drawing an audience, obviously part of it is--kids get older and then a new audience comes, and they're not tired of the plot twists, or in fact, it becomes sort of a ritual after a while probably that certain things are expected and it's what they want.
但是，你们的编剧们，你们觉得怎么样——我无法判断这部剧是否和十年前一样好或者更好，但如果它仍然吸引着观众，显然有一部分是——孩子们长大了，然后新的观众出现了，他们并不厌倦情节的曲折，或者事实上，过了一段时间，它就变成了一种仪式，可能某些事情是他们所期待的，这就是他们想要的。
They don't want it to be too novel.
他们不希望它太新奇。
But, how do you keep that novelty and creativity working with your team?
但是，如何让您的团队保持新颖性和创造力呢？
Ronnen Harary: It's funny that you say--you never want to jump the shark.
Ronnen Harary：你说的很有趣——你永远不想跳鲨鱼。
And, it's funny that you brought up Martians.
而且，有趣的是你养育了火星人。
Some people think, 'Oh, it'd be cool to go to space.' PAW Patrol will never go to space, because that's just too far afield.
有些人想，“哦，去太空真是太酷了。”狗狗巡逻队永远不会去太空，因为那太遥远了。
You have to stay very true to what made the show the show, and you have to really stay within the confines of what that is.
你必须非常忠实于节目之所以成为节目的原因，并且你必须真正保持在节目本身的范围内。
From a sales perspective, you just need to stay within the confines and make sure that the writers, the new writers that are coming along, are writing within the tradition of the writers that came before them.
从销售的角度来看，你只需要保持在限制范围内，并确保作家，即将出现的新作家，是在他们之前的作家的传统范围内写作。
The pacing stays the same.
节奏保持不变。
The comedy stays the same.
喜剧保持不变。
It's all about the tone and tenor.
这完全取决于语气和男高音。
But, within that , you can have fun and you can play.
但是，在其中，你可以玩得开心，你可以玩。
So, for example, our movie that's coming out this year, the pups are actually going to a special island where there's dinosaurs, and they have their own unique vehicles, and their headquarters is a special mobile--something I can't share exactly what it is yet, but you'll see it in the movie.
举个例子，我们今年上映的电影，小狗们实际上要去一个特殊的岛屿，那里有恐龙，它们有自己独特的交通工具，它们的总部是一个特殊的移动设备——我还不能确切地分享它是什么，但你会在电影中看到它。
But, the same repetition.
但是，同样的重复。
So, for example, the way a show is actually built never changed.
例如，节目的实际制作方式从未改变。
Never changes.
永远不会改变。
So, it's almost like the way you write a song.
所以，这几乎就像你写歌的方式一样。
The song, the melody hasn't changed; but you can jam around it, but the melody is the same.
歌曲、旋律没有变；但你可以围绕它即兴演奏，但旋律是一样的。
So, the first act, second act, the third act, it's very structured, and so we never changed the structure.
所以，第一幕、第二幕、第三幕，它是非常结构化的，所以我们从来没有改变过结构。
The voicees never changed.
声音从未改变。
The kids actually--it's interesting--the kids, all the voices are done by children and they age out at like 14 when they hit puberty.
实际上，孩子们——这很有趣——孩子们，所有的声音都是由孩子们完成的，他们在14岁左右就进入了青春期。
So, there's been a lot of Marshalls and Chases and Skyes and Zumas and stuff like this, but they always hit that perfect pitch of their voice every single time.
所以，有很多马歇尔、蔡斯、斯凯斯和祖马之类的人，但他们每次总是能达到完美的音调。
Russ Roberts: It sounds to me like it's Mission: Impossible meets The Avengers with puppies.
拉斯·罗伯茨：在我看来，《碟中谍》与《复仇者联盟》的小狗相遇。
And I think Marvel and other similar franchises, Mission: Impossible , they struggle with coming up with new things.
我认为漫威和其他类似的系列，《碟中谍》，他们都在努力想出新的东西。
But when your audience is four years old, it never gets old, right?
但当你的观众四岁时，他们就永远不会变老，对吧？
Ronnen Harary: Yeah.
罗南·哈拉里：是的。
There's a new generation of kids.
有新一代的孩子。
I think that the brilliance of Keith Chapman was the puppies and making them with incredible capabilities: that anything's possible and you can resolve everything and you can do it in a nice way.
我认为基思·查普曼的才华在于小狗，并使它们具有令人难以置信的能力：一切皆有可能，你可以解决一切，你可以以一种很好的方式做到这一点。
And I think those are meaningful.
我认为这些都是有意义的。
The nice thing I think for this generation is: they get the benefit of having 13 seasons, so that they got a long arc to choose from.
我认为这一代人的好处是：他们受益于拥有 13 个赛季，因此他们有很长的弧线可供选择。
It's fresh.
很新鲜。
It's fresh.
很新鲜。
It's a new generation of kids.
这是新一代的孩子。
Russ Roberts: It's like EconTalk.
Russ Roberts：就像 EconTalk。
You got a thousand episodes, plus, in the archive.
您的档案中有一千集。
Russ Roberts: So, if you like it, you got a lot of entertainment ahead of you.
拉斯·罗伯茨：所以，如果你喜欢的话，你前面有很多娱乐活动。
Russ Roberts: I realized something very interesting.
拉斯·罗伯茨：我发现了一些非常有趣的事情。
I'm always intrigued by how--you know, human creativity is so extraordinary.
我总是对人类的创造力如此非凡感到好奇。
When technology comes and changes, it creates new opportunities for that creativity to be unleashed.
当技术出现并发生变化时，它为释放创造力创造了新的机会。
So, when I think about why there aren't any great classical composers, or at least famous classical composers, in modern times, I always think, well, but John Williams is a great classical composer.
所以，当我思考为什么现代没有伟大的古典作曲家，或者至少没有著名的古典作曲家时，我总是想，嗯，但约翰·威廉姆斯是一位伟大的古典作曲家。
So is Hans Zimmer.
汉斯·齐默也是如此。
It's just that in our world, the ability to make great symphonic music for a narrative is what is rewarded, and making a new symphony is not so lucrative.
只是在我们的世界里，能够为叙事创作伟大的交响乐才是获得奖励的，而创作一首新的交响曲就不那么有利可图了。
So, the talent flows into this new technology of movies.
于是，人才涌入了电影这一新技术。
And in your case--I looked it up.
至于你的情况——我查了一下。
According to--I think it was ChatGPT [Chat Generative Pre-trained Transformer]--JK Rowling has sold about 600 million copies of Harry Potter books.
根据——我认为是 ChatGPT [聊天生成预训练变压器]——JK 罗琳已经售出了大约 6 亿本哈利·波特书籍。
Which is an extraordinary achievement.
这是一项非凡的成就。
But, you estimate, in the book, that about 250 million kids have been touched by PAW Patrol.
但是，您在书中估计，大约有 2.5 亿儿童曾接触过狗狗巡逻队。
That's mind-blowing.
这真是令人兴奋。
And it's the same product .
而且是同一个产品。
It's a story that you've used--and Keith Chapman and others on your team--have used to create a world where small children--in this case, smaller than Harry Potter readers--but that children can live in and learn lessons, and I think you say, can figure out how to be a grownup in a safe way.
你和基思·查普曼以及你团队中的其他人用这个故事创造了一个世界，在这个世界里，小孩子——在这个例子中，比《哈利·波特》的读者还要小——但孩子们可以生活在其中并学习课程，我想你说的是，他们可以弄清楚如何以安全的方式成为一个成年人。
Talk about what that means to have that many kids around the world immersed in a world you and your team brought into being.
谈谈让世界各地的许多孩子沉浸在您和您的团队创造的世界中意味着什么。
It comes back to this point of it's hard to remember if that's what you've done.
回到这一点，很难记住这是否是你所做的。
You made a lot of money off it.
你从中赚了很多钱。
Congrats.
恭喜。
There's nothing wrong with that.
这没有什么问题。
I salute it.
我向它致敬。
But, the reason you made a lot of money is you created something that people really--a world people wanted to live in.
但是，你赚了很多钱的原因是你创造了人们真正想要生活的世界。
And that's the real product, not the money.
这才是真正的产品，而不是金钱。
Ronnen Harary: Yeah.
罗南·哈拉里：是的。
It's similar to what you said before about the doctor.
这和你之前说的医生的情况很相似。
Was he a doctor?
他是医生吗？
Russ Roberts: Yeah.
拉斯·罗伯茨：是的。
Who had created, I think, a medical device.
我认为谁创造了一种医疗设备。
Ronnen Harary: It's a hard thing to actually understand the scope and scale.
Ronnen Harary：真正理解其范围和规模是一件很难的事情。
Ronnen Harary: It's really hard to understand the scope and scale--and savor it, like you mentioned.
Ronnen Harary：正如您提到的，理解其范围和规模并细细品味它确实很难。
I'm very blessed to get lots of opportunities where I meet people and they've got kids and they hear about PAW Patrol and then they want to share the stories, and everybody gets excited.
我很幸运能有很多机会认识人们，他们有孩子，他们听说了狗狗巡逻队，然后他们想分享这些故事，每个人都很兴奋。
Sometimes they want to take my picture, which is kind of cool.
有时他们想给我拍照，这很酷。
But, I think the most magical things is actually when I see kids.
但是，我认为最神奇的事情实际上是当我看到孩子时。
I love walking in airports.
我喜欢在机场散步。
I have this thing about airports.
我有关于机场的事情。
I learn so much in the airport.
我在机场学到了很多东西。
When I see a kid holding a PAW Patrol plush or I see them watching it on an iPad or something like that, that's when it really hits me.
当我看到一个孩子拿着狗狗巡逻队毛绒玩具或者看到他们在 iPad 或类似的东西上观看它时，这才是真正让我震惊的时候。
That's when it really hits me that it's that far reaching at the end of the day.
那时我才真正意识到，最终它的影响力是如此之大。
Russ Roberts: I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about two aspects of business that you write about.
拉斯·罗伯茨：我想稍微改变一下话题，谈谈你所写的商业的两个方面。
The first is--I've never read anybody who made this claim before; it's really intriguing--that you're really good at meetings.
首先是——我以前从未读过任何人提出过这样的说法；这真的很有趣——你真的很擅长开会。
Now, most people don't think of themselves as good at meetings.
现在，大多数人认为自己不擅长开会。
Most people dislike meetings.
大多数人不喜欢开会。
What does that mean to you?
这对你来说意味着什么？
What does it mean to be good at--what is a good meeting to you?
擅长是什么意思——对您来说，什么是好的会议？
Ronnen Harary: Well, a good meeting is when you are able to bring out the ideas from the other people sitting around the table, and you're able to bring up everybody's energy level, and it's an exchange.
Ronnen Harary：嗯，一次好的会议就是你能够从坐在桌子旁的其他人那里提出想法，并且能够调动每个人的能量水平，这是一种交流。
It's kind of like a symphony or a jam band, and everybody starts jamming together and you're creating music.
这有点像交响乐或即兴乐队，每个人都开始即兴演奏，然后你就可以创作音乐。
Versus creating music, we're generating ideas.
与创作音乐相比，我们是在产生想法。
And then, through the ideas, you get the best one pops out, and the idea is seen by everybody in the room, and everybody gets energy from the idea.
然后，通过这些想法，你会得到最好的想法，房间里的每个人都会看到这个想法，每个人都从这个想法中获得能量。
And then they leave the meeting and they're all energized to go in action what just transpired.
然后他们离开会议，他们都精力充沛地采取行动刚刚发生的事情。
And, you do that over and over and over and again.
而且，你一遍又一遍地这样做。
I think that maybe a lot of it comes maybe from my learning disability because I can't do the PowerPoints.
我认为这可能很大程度上是由于我的学习障碍造成的，因为我不会做幻灯片。
I don't write everything out.
我不会把所有的事情都写出来。
So, it's more about a synthesis of people coming together.
所以，这更多的是人们聚集在一起的综合。
And I used to do the strangest things in the early days when I used to basically page people on the intercom.
早期我经常做一些最奇怪的事情，当时我基本上是通过对讲机寻呼人们的。
So, when I start a meeting, I'll start with two or three people.
因此，当我开始会议时，我会从两到三个人开始。
And then when I get an idea and I want to--and I know that there's someone else that can actually contribute to this idea or to this thought, I want them to come into the room at that moment in time.
然后，当我有了一个想法并且我想要——而且我知道还有其他人可以真正为这个想法或这个想法做出贡献时，我希望他们在那一刻及时进入房间。
So, I won't wait to book another meeting.
所以，我迫不及待地要预订另一次会议。
In the olden days, I would page them--literally page them on the intercom--and have them come to my meeting.
过去，我会寻呼他们——实际上是通过对讲机寻呼他们——然后让他们来参加我的会议。
Then my business partner, Anton, he cut me off because he thought I was disrupting everybody.
然后我的商业伙伴安东打断了我的电话，因为他认为我打扰了所有人。
Which I was.
我就是这样。
Then later on, literally, I would scream to my assistant sitting outside my office, and I'd ask her to go find the person, and the person would come in.
然后，后来，从字面上看，我会对坐在办公室外面的助理尖叫，然后我会让她去找那个人，那个人就会进来。
I would do this, and sometimes I'd start with two people and we'd end up with like eight or nine people in the meeting.
我会这样做，有时我会从两个人开始，最后会议中会有八九个人。
And we're just jamming on the ideas.
我们只是在思考这些想法。
So, it's, like, when the inspiration comes, I want to take advantage of it.
所以，就像，当灵感来临时，我想利用它。
Because I'm trying to connect the dots, like: Who can add to this topic at this moment in time?
因为我正在尝试将这些点连接起来，例如：此时谁可以及时添加到此主题？
Right?
正确的？
And I'm very much into the diversity of thought.
我非常喜欢思想的多样性。
I think that's the most important thing, is diversity of thought.
我认为最重要的是思想的多样性。
At Spin Master, you can start in shipping--and it's famous--you'll end up being a senior vice president at our company: because we don't care about anything other than what your thoughts are and what you can bring to the table.
在 Spin Master，你可以从运输开始——这很出名——你最终会成为我们公司的高级副总裁：因为除了你的想法和你能带来什么之外，我们不关心任何事情。
And we like mixing it up.
我们喜欢把它混合起来。
And, yeah.
而且，是的。
So, that's what I do.
所以，这就是我所做的。
And I think about myself as like a conductor, and I'm just trying to mash up people's thoughts to get the best idea out.
我认为自己就像一名指挥，我只是试图将人们的想法融合在一起，以获得最好的想法。
And the one thing I like to say is I love bringing the introverts into the room, because I find that they usually have incredible things to contribute, but they're not naturally built that way to speak up because they're more introverted.
我想说的一件事是，我喜欢把内向的人带到房间里，因为我发现他们通常可以做出令人难以置信的事情，但他们天生就不会那样说话，因为他们更内向。
So, I like to just draw it out; and then it's, like, 'Wow, that's an incredible insight.' Just looking for the insights.
所以，我喜欢把它画出来；然后就像是，“哇，这是一个令人难以置信的洞察力。”只是寻找见解。
Just looking for the insights.
只是寻找见解。
The other thing I will say is that--and this goes against all contemporary norms--is I will not end a meeting on time if the meeting is really good.
我要说的另一件事是——这违背了所有当代规范——如果会议真的很好，我不会按时结束会议。
I won't end it.
我不会结束它。
Russ Roberts: Do you end it early if it's really bad?
拉斯·罗伯茨：如果事情真的很糟糕，你会提前结束吗？
Or do you try to save it?
或者你会尝试拯救它吗？
I think they're always good.
我认为他们总是好的。
There's always good things that come out.
总会有好的事情出现。
I will tell you, I have a thing with my team.
我会告诉你，我和我的团队有一些事情。
I have standing meetings every single week.
我每周都会召开常设会议。
And, so many times the team calls and says, 'Oh, Ronnen, there's nothing to discuss this week.
而且，团队多次打电话说，‘哦，罗南，这周没什么可讨论的。
Why don't we cancel it?' And, I never cancel a meeting.
我们为什么不取消它呢？而且，我从不取消会议。
Ever.
曾经。
I've never canceled a meeting in my whole career--okay?
在我的整个职业生涯中，我从未取消过会议，好吗？
Because the best things come out of those meetings.
因为最好的事情都是从这些会议中产生的。
There's always things to talk about.
总有话可说。
It's the meetings that you actually have less to talk about, with less pressure, that the good ideas start to come out.
事实上，在会议上，你可以谈论的东西更少，压力也更小，好的想法开始出现。
Russ Roberts: Yeah.
拉斯·罗伯茨：是的。
It's easy to forget that part of a meeting is a human connection that matters.
人们很容易忘记会议的一部分是重要的人际关系。
It's not just the ideas.
这不仅仅是想法。
Spending time with your colleagues has a value in and of itself.
与同事共度时光本身就具有价值。
Russ Roberts: You say that business is an art, and I agree.
拉斯·罗伯茨：你说商业是一门艺术，我同意。
Why do you think so few people see the art in the commercial world?
您认为为什么很少有人在商业世界中看到艺术？
Ronnen Harary: First of all, I'm so happy you're bringing this up.
Ronnen Harary：首先，我很高兴你提出这个问题。
I'm not exactly sure, but for some reason, business has got lots of negative connotations built in.
我不太确定，但出于某种原因，商业有很多负面含义。
It doesn't have the best reputation.
它没有最好的声誉。
And sometimes people do things that are untoward in the business world, and as a result--and it's also tied to money, and there's lots of connotations around money that gets conjured up for people.
有时，人们会在商业世界中做出一些令人不快的事情，结果，这也与金钱有关，围绕金钱，人们会联想到很多含义。
Also, how people work with people and how they treat people, there's negative thoughts around that.
此外，人们如何与人合作以及他们如何对待人，围绕这些也存在消极的想法。
So, there's all those elements, plus many more, that create that narrative for people.
因此，所有这些元素以及更多其他元素为人们创造了这种叙事。
But, the one thing that dawned on me is, and I didn't realize it so much later on, is that if you bring things out into the world that have never been created before--and that could be a service or that could be a restaurant or a new recipe or the way you're serving food or a new type of gym--they're all experiences, experiences or products or a new way to do a podcast or a different type of financial service.
但是，我突然意识到的一件事是，如果你把以前从未创造过的东西带入世界——这可能是一种服务，也可能是一家餐厅，一种新食谱，或者你提供食物的方式，或者一种新型的健身房——它们都是体验、体验或产品，或者是一种做播客的新方式，或者是一种不同类型的金融服务。
They're all creative things that are new and different, and you're birthing them and you're bringing them out into the world.
它们都是新颖且不同的创造性事物，你正在孕育它们，并将它们带入世界。
So, what's the difference between that and painting a picture?
那么，这和画画有什么区别呢？
Right?
正确的？
Or writing a song?
或者写首歌？
They're all creative endeavors.
它们都是创造性的努力。
The only differenc is, in business is, it's more, instead of using paints, it's human beings coming together in a coordinated fashion to create something that's never been done before.
唯一的区别是，在商业中，它更多地不是使用油漆，而是人类以协调的方式聚集在一起，创造出以前从未做过的东西。
And I think that's something extremely artistic.
我认为这是非常艺术的事情。
Russ Roberts: Yeah.
拉斯·罗伯茨：是的。
In a way, it should be more romantic than painting or songwriting or fiction.
在某种程度上，它应该比绘画、歌曲创作或小说更浪漫。
But I think people who are successful in business who--I spent most of my life sitting in my office by myself.
但我认为那些在商业上取得成功的人——我一生中的大部分时间都独自坐在办公室里。
Every once in while I'd come out and lecture at 30 to 300 kids, depending on the class, but most of--I led a very solitary life.
每隔一段时间，我就会出来给 30 到 300 个孩子讲课，具体取决于班级，但大多数人——我过着非常孤独的生活。
It's only at the end of my career that I've had this opportunity to be president of this college where I have colleagues.
直到我职业生涯结束时，我才有机会担任这所我有同事的学院的院长。
I had colleagues before, but we didn't really work together.
我以前也有同事，但我们并没有真正合作过。
Very rarely did I write a joint paper, and that's not really the kind of collaboration that happens in a business where you birth something really complex and you overcome obstacles.
我很少写一篇联合论文，这并不是真正发生在一个企业中的那种合作，在这个企业中，你会诞生一些非常复杂的东西，并且你会克服障碍。
I'm sure some of the best experiences you had, they didn't feel like it at the time, but when those wings kept breaking off and then you solved it, it's exhilarating.
我确信你有过一些最好的经历，他们当时并不喜欢，但是当那些翅膀不断折断然后你解决了它时，这是令人兴奋的。
And it's exhilarating to solve it on your own, but there's something special about solving it with a team because often, if it's done well, everybody contributes and something unique is created from that collaboration.
自己解决这个问题是令人兴奋的，但与团队一起解决这个问题有一些特别的地方，因为通常，如果做得好，每个人都会做出贡献，并且从这种协作中创造出独特的东西。
For me, I think because people make money off of it, I think people confuse the money side with the motivation.
对我来说，我认为因为人们从中赚钱，所以我认为人们将金钱方面与动机混为一谈。
It's true that people like making money.
确实，人们都喜欢赚钱。
There's nothing wrong with it.
没有什么问题。
But I think people assume, like where it's worth getting and spending, we lay waste our powers, that if you're motivated by the money--which is absurd that'd be the only thing you cared about, as if you didn't care that you made 250 million kids happy or give them a meaningful exposure to virtue or the other thousand things that happened, but as if that's all you cared about was the money and the rest, it was just a vehicle.
但我认为人们会认为，就像在值得获得和花费的地方一样，我们浪费了我们的权力，如果你被金钱所激励——这是荒谬的，那将是你唯一关心的事情，就好像你不在乎你让2.5亿孩子快乐，或者让他们有意义地接触美德或其他发生的事情，但好像你所关心的只是金钱和其他，它只是一个工具。
The quality of the movie was just a way to make the money.
电影的质量只是赚钱的一种方式。
No one in business feels that way.
商界没有人有这样的感觉。
I've never met anybody who actually feels that way.
我从未见过真正有这种感觉的人。
I think in popular culture, and in just our zeitgeist, there's an assumption that that's the motive, and motive matters a lot to human beings.
我认为在流行文化中，在我们的时代精神中，有一种假设，那就是动机，而动机对人类来说非常重要。
I can make a good argument, I hope, for why outcomes are more important than motives, but that's not the way most of us feel most of the time.
我希望我可以很好地论证为什么结果比动机更重要，但这并不是我们大多数人大多数时候的感受。
It's an intellectual argument.
这是一个理智的争论。
We have a visceral reaction to somebody who is trying to profit, even if the consequence is something wonderful.
我们对那些试图获利的人会有本能的反应，即使结果是美好的。
So, I think the challenge for our culture, which we've failed at, is reminding people of the transformative aspects of creative innovation that you're talking about and how it makes people's lives better.
因此，我认为我们的文化所面临的挑战（我们失败了）是提醒人们您所谈论的创意创新的变革性方面以及它如何使人们的生活变得更好。
But, they focus on the money, and that's a loss.
但是，他们专注于金钱，这是一种损失。
Ronnen Harary: Yeah.
罗南·哈拉里：是的。
No, I totally agree with you.
不，我完全同意你的观点。
I totally agree with you.
我完全同意你的观点。
Also, what people bring into the world and how it helps people.
此外，人们给世界带来了什么以及它如何帮助人们。
Actually, there's so many small-to-medium-sized businesses that really drive and power the economy, and that's people's lives.
事实上，有很多中小企业真正推动和推动了经济，这就是人们的生活。
That's people's lives and how they live and how they interact.
这就是人们的生活、他们的生活方式以及他们的互动方式。
Russ Roberts: So, you've done this for roughly three decades, 30 years plus, and you've been phenomenally successful.
拉斯·罗伯茨：所以，你已经这样做了大约三十年、三十多年，并且取得了惊人的成功。
You took a nylon with sawdust and grass and eventually--you know, you talk about Adrienne Zacks, this woman at Kmart who changed your life.
你拿了一条带有锯末和草的尼龙，最终——你知道，你谈论艾德丽安·扎克斯，这位凯马特的女人改变了你的生活。
That opened that door to PAW Patrol and everything that came after the Earth Buddy.
这为狗狗巡逻队以及地球伙伴之后的一切打开了大门。
And very successful.
并且非常成功。
And, you're the Chair now, right?
而且，你现在是主席，对吧？
Is that correct?
这是正确的吗？
Russ Roberts: So, you're not quite as involved as you once were?
拉斯·罗伯茨：所以，你不再像以前那样参与其中了？
Ronnen Harary: Yeah.
罗南·哈拉里：是的。
Myself and my partner, Anton, we stepped down from being co-CEOs about five years ago.
我和我的合伙人安东大约五年前辞去了联合首席执行官的职务。
Russ Roberts: So, do you still get excited about toys?
拉斯·罗伯茨：那么，你仍然对玩具感到兴奋吗？
That's my closing question.
这是我的结束语。
Ronnen Harary: Actually, I get more excited about the toys still than the business as a whole.
Ronnen Harary：事实上，我对玩具的兴趣仍然超过了整个行业。
The toys themselves, that never goes away.
玩具本身永远不会消失。
I'm stuck at seven forever.
我永远被困在七点。
So, it's like--when you see the magic--I tell you what I get the most excited about.
所以，就像——当你看到魔法时——我告诉你我最兴奋的是什么。
I get the most excited about when I see a toy getting created in the company that's super magical, innovative, that I had nothing to do with personally.
当我看到公司创造出一款超级神奇、创新、与我个人无关的玩具时，我感到最兴奋。
Ronnen Harary: It happened in 2016.
Ronnen Harary：事情发生在 2016 年。
We brought this product out called Hatchimals.
我们推出了这款名为 Hatchimals 的产品。
This is a great product.
这是一个很棒的产品。
You would like this one, Russ.
你会喜欢这个，拉斯。
It's a character in an egg.
这是一个鸡蛋里的角色。
And when you hold the egg, it picks up on the heat of your hands and it activates the--it's like a bird inside.
当你拿着鸡蛋时，它会吸收你手的热量并激活它，就像里面的一只鸟一样。
It activates the bird, and it starts pecking to come out of the egg, and he turns 360 degrees in the egg and he pecks.
它激活了鸟，它开始啄出蛋，然后他在蛋中旋转 360 度并啄。
And if you put the egg down, he'll stop.
如果你把鸡蛋放下，他就会停下来。
If you don't pick it up for three months, he's just lying dormant.
如果你三个月不接它，他就处于休眠状态。
You pick it up again, he'll wake up and he'll start pecking.
你再把它捡起来，他就会醒来并开始啄食。
Eventually, he will crack his way out of the egg, and you pull him out and then you interact with him and he comes to life.
最终，他会从鸡蛋中钻出来，你把他拉出来，然后你与他互动，他就会活过来。
That product went on to become really successful for our company, and I had nothing to do with it.
该产品后来为我们公司带来了真正的成功，而我与它无关。
I was co-CEO of the company back in the day, and I was still involved in product.
当时我是公司的联合首席执行官，我仍然参与产品工作。
I had nothing to do with that product.
我与该产品无关。
Zero.
零。
And to me, that's one of the greatest achievements.
对我来说，这是最伟大的成就之一。
The greatest achievement is when the culture we've built in the company is being replicated by other people in the company, and that's the highest form of success.
最大的成就是我们在公司建立的文化被公司其他人复制，这就是成功的最高形式。
If the company, God willing, could live beyond the founders, that's the highest form of success and continue to do what we're doing and tell great stories and great products.
如果上帝保佑，公司能够超越创始人，那就是成功的最高形式，并继续做我们正在做的事情，讲述伟大的故事和伟大的产品。
But, I like to see them.
但是，我喜欢看到他们。
That's like a proud grandparent.
这就像一位骄傲的祖父母。
You what I mean?
你说我的意思吗？
Ronnen Harary: I like to see what gets created.
Ronnen Harary：我喜欢看看创造了什么。
Russ Roberts: You remind me--when you say you're still a seven-year-old, it reminds me of another thing.
拉斯·罗伯茨：你提醒了我——当你说你还是个七岁的孩子时，这让我想起了另一件事。
Maybe we'll close with this.
也许我们就这样结束吧。
One of my favorite scenes in a movie is when Anton Ego, the food critic in Ratatouille , tastes the ratatouille that comes out of the kitchen, and he instantly becomes a little boy at his rural farmhouse, mom's and dad's house.
我在电影中最喜欢的场景之一是《料理鼠王》中的美食评论家安东·伊戈（Anton Ego）品尝了从厨房出来的料理鼠王后，他立即变成了农村农舍、爸爸妈妈家里的小男孩。
Nostalgia is the fancy name for it.
怀旧是它的一个奇特的名字。
But, it's interesting, because if you'd asked me what were the important toys of my childhood?
但是，这很有趣，因为如果你问我童年时最重要的玩具是什么？
I'm 71, so I grew up in a very different time than you did and certainly very different from a standard 10--or 12-year-old kid today.
我已经 71 岁了，所以我成长的时代与你们截然不同，当然也与今天标准的 10 岁或 12 岁孩子有很大不同。
But, I had a talking Bugs Bunny, which was an unbelievable present that a family friend gave us.
但是，我有一只会说话的兔八哥，这是一位家庭朋友送给我们的令人难以置信的礼物。
You pulled his cord and he talked to you.
你拉了他的绳子，他就跟你说话了。
That same family friend bought me this--I'd love to see this.
同一个家庭朋友给我买了这个——我很想看看这个。
If I saw this, I'd probably cry, like Ratatouille .
如果我看到这个，我可能会像料理鼠王一样哭泣。
There's a unbelievable poignance to encountering your childhood experiences or toys.
邂逅童年经历或玩具会带来令人难以置信的辛酸。
But this was like a--I don't know how it worked.
但这就像——我不知道它是如何运作的。
It was, like, a box with a light bulb inside, and it cast shadows of airplanes on the ceiling.
它就像一个盒子，里面有一个灯泡，它在天花板上投射出飞机的影子。
It was a very creative product for 1958.
这是 1958 年非常有创意的产品。
But that was the technology.
但这就是技术。
There wasn't much: talking Bugs Bunny was incredible .
没什么：会说话的兔八哥真是令人难以置信。
Russ Roberts: But, when you mentioned yo-yos, which were a big part of my childhood, and I get a romantic--I can't explain it; obviously, it's just part of the human experience.
拉斯·罗伯茨：但是，当你提到溜溜球时，它是我童年的重要组成部分，我感到一种浪漫——我无法解释；它是我童年的一部分。显然，这只是人类经验的一部分。
Just when you said the word 'yo-yo,' I was part of that fad.
就在你说出“溜溜球”这个词的时候，我就参与了这种时尚。
It was Duncan and--
这是邓肯，而且——
Ronnen Harary: Yeah, it's Duncan yo-yos.
Ronnen Harary：是的，这是邓肯溜溜球。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Russ Roberts: And, they were different.
拉斯·罗伯茨：而且，他们是不同的。
And again, it's a primitive form of what you've been doing since you got started.
再说一遍，这是您从一开始就一直在做的事情的原始形式。
You take a yo-yo and then you change the color, and then you make it see-through, and then you add a flare to the sides, and then the string is a little different.
你拿一个溜溜球，然后改变颜色，然后让它透明，然后在侧面添加耀斑，然后绳子就有点不同了。
And then you have people walk around and market it by doing tricks.
然后你让人们四处走动并通过表演技巧来推销它。
Do you have a favorite toy from your childhood that you think about?
您有小时候最喜欢的玩具吗？
Or maybe you still have it?
或者也许你还拥有它？
I don't know.
我不知道。
If I said to you, what's your favorite toy growing up, do you have one?
如果我问你，你从小到大最喜欢的玩具是什么，你有吗？
Ronnen Harary: Listen, I had the Spider-Man stringer you put on your wrist and then out came the web.
Ronnen Harary：听着，我把蜘蛛侠的绳子戴在手腕上，然后蜘蛛网就出来了。
I loved playing with that.
我喜欢玩那个。
I actually had Green Army Man, believe it or not.
不管你信不信，我实际上有绿军人。
So, that was cool, just placing them and just letting my imagination run wild.
所以，这很酷，只是放置它们并让我的想象力尽情发挥。
So, I had a few.
所以，我有一些。
I didn't actually grow up with a lot of toys, which is quite ironic.
我实际上并不是伴随着很多玩具长大的，这很讽刺。
We just did not have them in the house very much.
我们只是家里很少有它们。
But, I did grow up in that time where it was just like your imagination could just run wild, and I think that's the most beautiful thing about toys--actually, of any generation.
但是，在我成长的那个时代，你的想象力可以尽情发挥，我认为这是玩具最美丽的东西——实际上，在任何一代人中都是如此。
And the funniest thing is when you were talking about the pulling the string on the Bugs Bunny, like, the same mechanics are still around.
最有趣的是，当你谈论拉动兔八哥的绳子时，同样的机制仍然存在。
You still buy plush toys today, right?
今天你还买毛绒玩具吧？
People still buy plush toys.
人们仍然购买毛绒玩具。
We make plush toys.
我们生产毛绒玩具。
The play patterns are actually eternal.
游戏模式实际上是永恒的。
They're just the technologies just change.
它们只是刚刚发生变化的技术。
Russ Roberts: My guest today has been Ronnen Harary.
拉斯·罗伯茨：今天我的客人是罗南·哈拉里。
His book is No Experience Necessary .
他的书是《无需经验》。
Ronnen, thanks for being part of EconTalk.
Ronnen，感谢您参与 EconTalk。
Ronnen Harary: Thanks, Russ.
Ronnen Harary：谢谢，拉斯。
Appreciate it.
欣赏它。