econtalk book club on the iliad with ido hevroni
Ego, pride, wrath, fear, gods, superheroes, mortals, and lots of killing.
自我、骄傲、愤怒、恐惧、诸神、超级英雄、凡人，以及大量的杀戮。
Welcome to Homer's Iliad , which reads at times like a script for a Tarantino film or the latest installment of the Avengers franchise.
欢迎来到荷马的《伊利亚特》，它读起来有时就像塔伦蒂诺电影的剧本或复仇者联盟最新一期的剧本。
In the first episode of the EconTalk Book Club on the Iliad , Ido Hevroni of Shalem College speaks with EconTalk's Russ Roberts about the surprising relevance of a 2800-year-old epic poem.
在 EconTalk 读书俱乐部关于《伊利亚特》的第一集中，沙勒姆学院的伊多·赫夫罗尼 (Ido Hevroni) 与 EconTalk 的拉斯·罗伯茨 (Russ Roberts) 谈论了一首 2800 年历史的史诗的惊人相关性。
Hevroni also provides useful background for first-time readers and what it's like to read the Iliad with combat veterans.
赫夫罗尼还为初次读者提供了有用的背景知识，以及与退伍军人一起阅读《伊利亚特》的感觉。
My son did a tour in Iraq in 2025 (yes, U.S. Army Reserve units do get deployed, if not frequently then inevitably.) Bits and pieces of his experiences there, especially the more troubling ones, continue to emerge bit by bit.
我儿子于 2025 年访问了伊拉克（是的，美国陆军预备役部队确实会被部署，即使不是频繁，也是不可避免的。）他在那里经历的点点滴滴，尤其是那些更令人不安的经历，继续一点一滴地浮现出来。
I am curious if part of the revelations Professor Hevoni has had since his students came back from war, is that discussing The Iliad in a group setting helps them to open up about their wartime experiences with people who were not there and can never share that bond?
我很好奇赫沃尼教授自从他的学生从战争中回来后得到的部分启示是否是，在小组环境中讨论《伊利亚特》是否有助于他们向那些不在场且永远无法分享这种联系的人敞开心扉谈论他们的战时经历？
I’m on my sixth attempt at reading this and picked up where I left off a few years ago, because I find so much of it crushingly dull.
这是我第六次尝试阅读这篇文章，并从几年前停下来的地方继续阅读，因为我发现其中的大部分内容非常乏味。
For those who are in the earlier sections, don’t despair, it gets better.
对于那些处于前面部分的人，不要绝望，它会变得更好。
This is an anti-war story.
这是一个反战故事。
All of the characters are despicable–just a bunch of violent thugs going about killing, raping, and stealing.
所有的角色都是卑鄙的——一群残暴的暴徒，杀人、强奸、盗窃。
They’re a disgusting lot, akin to a couple of criminal gangs going at each other on lonesome backroads and in dark alleys.
他们是一群令人厌恶的人，就像两个犯罪团伙在偏僻的小路上和黑暗的小巷里互相攻击。
Having them all kill each other would be as close as we could come to a happy ending.
让他们互相残杀就已经是我们最接近的幸福结局了。
This is an anti-religion story.
这是一个反宗教的故事。
Most of their worst behavior is inspired by their belief in their gods or apologized for with the lame excuse of “[insert name of god here] made me do it.”
他们大多数最糟糕的行为都是受到他们对神的信仰的启发，或者以“[在此插入神的名字]让我这么做”的蹩脚借口而道歉。
Homer’s message, then, is to turn away from religion, reject violence, and go live in peace with your wives and children.
因此，荷马的信息是远离宗教，拒绝暴力，与妻子和孩子和平相处。
The great tragedy of The Iliad is that, today, 3,000 years after this tale emerged, we are still inspired by our gods to slaughter each other.
《伊利亚特》最大的悲剧在于，在这个故事出现 3000 年后的今天，我们仍然受到众神的鼓舞而互相残杀。
We have made some progress, though.
不过，我们已经取得了一些进展。
Reading the Stoics (Marcus Aurelius and Epicurus), we can see a rejection of god-inspired folly and an embrace of reason, we can see this thought emerge again in the great thinkers of the Enlightenment.
阅读斯多葛学派（马库斯·奥勒留和伊壁鸠鲁），我们可以看到对上帝启发的愚蠢的拒绝和对理性的拥抱，我们可以看到这种思想在启蒙运动的伟大思想家中再次出现。
Our desire to cling to silly supernatural beings–or to place a higher value on abstract ideas than on living, breathing people–has so far proven stronger than our desire to reject the counsel of the bloodthirsty leaders of religions and nations and to turn away from their childish, destructive gods.
迄今为止，事实证明，我们对愚蠢的超自然存在的渴望，或者对抽象观念的重视，比对活生生的人的重视，比我们拒绝宗教和国家嗜血领袖的建议、远离他们幼稚的、破坏性的神灵的愿望更强烈。
It was interesting the thoughts about movies vs books, my 11 year old daughter will happily read the Hunger Games series which has some pretty graphic violence but she knows she couldn’t watch the movies as she would find them too scary.
关于电影和书籍的想法很有趣，我 11 岁的女儿会很高兴阅读《饥饿游戏》系列，其中有一些相当生动的暴力内容，但她知道她不能看电影，因为她会觉得它们太可怕了。
I always try to make sure I read the book before watching a movie version of it, I don’t think I could do it the other way around but I guess I should try one day to see what it is like.
我总是尽量确保在看电影版之前先读过这本书，我不认为我可以反过来做，但我想有一天我应该尝试看看它是什么样的。
Interesting discussion and might now read the book.
有趣的讨论，现在可以阅读这本书了。
Have read the Odyssey more than once so maybe time for this.
已经不止一次地读过《奥德赛》了，所以也许是时候读一下了。
Will there be a schedule laid out for the readings?
阅读会制定时间表吗？
I don’t want to put words into Russ’s mouth, but I think there won’t be a schedule laid out.
我不想对拉斯说这些话，但我认为不会有一个时间表。
Russ is going to explain more about this in his upcoming Part II in the Book Club on The Iliad, which is with Dwayne Betts.
拉斯将在即将与德韦恩·贝茨 (Dwayne Betts) 合作的《伊利亚特》读书俱乐部的第二部分中对此进行更多解释。
It will be coming out next Monday, July 20th, at 6:30am.
将于 7 月 20 日下周一早上 6:30 发布。
I think there are several explanations of why there is no reading list schedule and why we’re just letting you read it at your own pace.
我认为有几种解释可以解释为什么没有阅读清单时间表以及为什么我们只是让您按照自己的节奏阅读。
First, this book, Homer’s Iliad, is part of our shared Western cultural history.
首先，荷马的《伊利亚特》这本书是我们共同的西方文化历史的一部分。
We all know the big picture of what’s going to happen–there’s massive bloodshed centered largely around Achilles.
我们都知道将要发生的事情的大局——大规模的流血事件主要集中在阿喀琉斯周围。
So there are no matters of plot spoilers.
所以不存在剧情剧透的问题。
The question most of us want to plumb is: But why?!
我们大多数人想要探究的问题是：但是为什么？！
What was that about?
那是关于什么的？
Second, the poem is not sooo long that we can’t read it in a few sittings–just a matter of a few days.
其次，这首诗并没有太长，不是几天就能读完的。
Even if you’ve never actually read it before.
即使您以前从未真正读过它。
And finally, I don’t think Russ wants to constrain his guests.
最后，我认为拉斯不想限制他的客人。
The goal would be for each guest to focus not on a few chapters, but more on the overarching thematic ideas that illuminate what this ancient Homeric tale is about at a deep level.
我们的目标是让每位来宾不要关注几个章节，而是更多地关注总体主题思想，这些主题思想深刻地阐明了这个古老的荷马故事的内容。
That said, if you’ve been reading apace, in next Monday’s episode with Dwayne Betts the furthest quote I see is there are quotes from Books XVI and XVII–so, Chapter 17.
也就是说，如果你读得很快，在下周一与 Dwayne Betts 的剧集中，我看到的最远的引述是来自第 16 本书和第 17 本书的引述——所以，第 17 章。
[Addendum: Other stopping points if you are looking to pause your reading: there is also a discussion of Book XVIII, an emotional spoiler regarding Book XXI, plus a brief discussion and impassioned quote from the final book, Book XXIV.]
[附录：如果您想暂停阅读，还有其他停止点：还有对第 18 册的讨论，这是关于第 21 册的情感剧透，加上最后一本书第 24 册的简短讨论和慷慨激昂的引述。]
If you want to learn more in advance about Betts’s perspectives, see his previous episodes on EconTalk at
如果您想提前了解更多关于 Betts 的观点，请参阅他之前在 EconTalk 上的剧集：
https://www.econlib.org/econtalk-by-featured-guest-and-letter/?selected_letter=B#ReginaldDwayneBetts
https://www.econlib.org/econtalk-by-featured-guest-and-letter/?selected_letter=B#ReginaldDwayneBetts
Additional ideas and people mentioned in this podcast episode:
本播客节目中提到的其他想法和人物：
A few more readings and background resources:
更多阅读材料和背景资源：
More related EconTalk podcast episodes, by Category:
更多相关的 EconTalk 播客剧集，按类别：
* As an Amazon Associate, Econlib earns from qualifying purchases.
* 作为亚马逊合作伙伴，Econlib 通过符合条件的购买赚取收入。
Russ Roberts: Today is May 25th, 2026, and my guest is Ido Hevroni, my colleague here at Shalem College.
Russ Roberts：今天是 2026 年 5 月 25 日，我的客人是 Ido Hevroni，我在 Shalem 学院的同事。
Every year since the college opened 13 years ago, Ido has been teaching The Iliad by Homer and The Odyssey by Homer to our students.
自学院成立 13 年来，伊多每年都会向学生教授荷马的《伊利亚特》和《奥德赛》。
This episode is the first episode of the EconTalk Book Club on The Iliad .
本集是 EconTalk 读书俱乐部关于《伊利亚特》的第一集。
I encourage you to read the book.
我鼓励你读这本书。
We'll be reading the Fagles translation, but there are many to choose from.
我们将阅读法格尔斯的翻译，但有很多可供选择。
I want listeners who may be listening with children that: This episode will likely contain adult themes, so you may want to screen this episode accordingly.
我希望可能和孩子一起听的听众知道：本集可能包含成人主题，因此您可能需要相应地筛选本集。
Ido Hevroni: Thank you.
伊多·赫夫罗尼：谢谢。
I'm very happy to be here.
我很高兴来到这里。
Russ Roberts: When did you first read The Iliad , and why did you read it?
拉斯·罗伯茨：你什么时候第一次读《伊利亚特》，为什么读它？
Ido Hevroni: It didn't start from reading The Iliad itself.
Ido Hevroni：这并不是从阅读《伊利亚特》本身开始的。
It started to be familiar with the themes, with the stories, of course, of the Trojan War or the Trojan horse.
它开始熟悉特洛伊战争或特洛伊木马的主题，当然还有故事。
It started when I was a kid.
当我还是个孩子的时候就开始了。
My father would used to on Saturdays to sit with me and read from an encyclopedia.
我父亲过去常在周六和我坐在一起阅读百科全书。
An old encyclopedia, which had amazing pictures.
一本古老的百科全书，里面有令人惊叹的图片。
So, then I fell in love with the story--not with the books, with the story .
所以，后来我爱上了这个故事——不是书，而是故事。
It took me a lot of years to start meeting the book.
我花了很多年才开始认识这本书。
Here in Israel, it is much less known, I think, from at least in America or Europe.
我认为，在以色列，至少在美国或欧洲，人们对它的了解要少得多。
Nobody, I think, really read it in Israel, at least not in high school ages, while I know that in America, in some high schools, they do read at least part of that.
我认为，在以色列，没有人真正读过这本书，至少在高中阶段没有，而我知道在美国，在一些高中，他们至少读过其中的一部分。
When I went to the university, I had an introduction.
当我上大学时，我有一个介绍。
I studied literature and psychology, and I had an introduction to Western literature.
我学的是文学和心理学，也了解过西方文学。
So, we had one meeting introducing Homer, and we read, I think, a few lines from the book, but much later, when I became familiar with liberal education, which is less known here in Israel, I started to self-educate myself.
因此，我们召开了一次介绍荷马的会议，我想我们读了书中的几行内容，但很久以后，当我熟悉自由教育（在以色列这里不太为人知）时，我开始自学。
So, I started reading these books.
于是，我开始阅读这些书。
So, the first time was, I assume, 15 or 16 years ago--a little bit--a few years before I came to Shalem.
所以，我猜想，第一次是在 15 或 16 年前，也就是我来到 Shalem 的几年前。
Russ Roberts: And, what impression did you have when you read it at some level of seriousness as an adult?
拉斯·罗伯茨：那么，当你作为一个成年人以某种程度的严肃性阅读这本书时，你有什么印象？
Ido Hevroni: It is strange.
伊多·赫夫罗尼：这很奇怪。
Let's admit it.
我们承认吧。
It's hard to begin with it.
很难开始。
It's very surprising to discover that The Iliad , which the meaning is the story of the Trojan War--Iliad is after Ilios, which is one of the names of Troy--is not really about the Trojan War.
令人非常惊讶的是，《伊利亚特》的意思是特洛伊战争的故事——《伊利亚特》源自伊利奥斯，伊利奥斯是特洛伊的名字之一——实际上并不是关于特洛伊战争的。
And I'm sorry for disappointing some of our listeners, but the Trojan horse itself does not appear in the book.
很抱歉让一些听众失望了，但特洛伊木马本身并没有出现在书中。
And of course, it takes time to dive into it.
当然，深入研究它需要时间。
It is strange.
这很奇怪。
You have to start to understand the gods--which I was a little bit familiar from before because I was interested in Greek mythology.
你必须开始了解诸神——我以前对此有点熟悉，因为我对希腊神话很感兴趣。
It takes time to get into it.
需要时间才能进入其中。
It takes time to understand what the book is trying to do.
理解这本书想要做什么需要时间。
But the best experience I had and the best way to study anything, I think, is to have to teach it.
但我认为，我所拥有的最好的经验和学习任何事物的最好方法就是必须教授它。
And, when I started reading it with the students and I had to teach them , then I started, I think, to really understand the book.
而且，当我开始与学生一起阅读这本书并且我必须教他们时，我想我开始真正理解这本书。
Russ Roberts: So, we'll come back to the students in a little bit, but if you're just a person listening to this, we have listeners all over the world.
拉斯·罗伯茨：所以，我们稍后会回到学生身上，但如果你只是一个听这个的人，我们在世界各地都有听众。
They do all kinds of things with their lives.
他们用自己的一生做各种各样的事情。
They're not scholars.
他们不是学者。
They're not classicists.
他们不是古典主义者。
They're not that interested in ancient Greek, most of our listeners.
我们大多数听众，他们对古希腊语不那么感兴趣。
Why do you think they should read it?
您为什么认为他们应该阅读它？
Why should a thoughtful, curious person read The Iliad ?
为什么一个有思想、有好奇心的人应该读《伊利亚特》？
Ido Hevroni: I can give you two answers from different angles.
Ido Hevroni：我可以从不同角度给你两个答案。
One is it is the DNA [Deoxyribonucleic acid].
一是 DNA [脱氧核糖核酸]。
The Iliad and The Odyssey are the genesis of the Western culture.
《伊利亚特》和《奥德赛》是西方文化的起源。
So, if you are interested in Western culture, if you are interested in understanding yourself better, even if you have critical view upon Western society or Western culture, this is where it all starts.
所以，如果你对西方文化感兴趣，如果你有兴趣更好地了解自己，即使你对西方社会或西方文化有批判性的看法，这就是一切的开始。
Hollywood started there.
好莱坞就是从那里开始的。
Everything we know about heroes and action and a lot of our notions and understandings, they all started there .
我们所知道的关于英雄和行动的一切，以及我们的很多观念和理解，都是从那里开始的。
It's before Philosophy.
这是在哲学之前。
We have to remind the listeners that it's something like about not the events themselves--if they were historical events--but the book itself comes something like 400 years before Philosophy.
我们必须提醒听众，这并不是事件本身——如果它们是历史事件的话——而是这本书本身的问世时间大约比哲学早了 400 年。
So, this is the first document that we have on Western culture.
所以，这是我们关于西方文化的第一份文件。
So, that's, let's say, a reason from the outside, a rationalistic reason.
所以，可以说，这是一个来自外部的原因，一个理性主义的原因。
The other reason is then when you start to read it seriously--and seriously doesn't mean professionally, because I have to admit, I'm not a profession, I'm not a scholar of these books.
另一个原因是当你开始认真地阅读它时——认真并不意味着专业，因为我必须承认，我不是一个专业人士，我不是这些书的学者。
My profession is in literature, but it's in Jewish literature, which is very, very much different from these kinds of literature.
我的专业是文学，但它是犹太文学，这与这类文学非常非常不同。
So I assume I have some tools which are beyond what a regular person would be, but not more than that.
所以我假设我拥有一些超出常人能力的工具，但也仅此而已。
When you start diving into it, you discover so many truths and so many depths that can enlighten our situation even today that it's worth the effort.
当你开始深入研究它时，你会发现如此多的真理和如此多的深度，即使在今天，它们也能启发我们的处境，值得你付出努力。
Russ Roberts: Yeah.
拉斯·罗伯茨：是的。
I'll say I had never read it.
我会说我从来没有读过它。
I've read chunks of The Odyssey .
我读过《奥德赛》的大段内容。
I'd never picked up The Iliad --because after all, it's just about mostly killing.
我从来没有读过《伊利亚特》——因为毕竟它主要是关于杀戮的。
So, I thought it's not that interesting to me.
所以，我觉得这对我来说没那么有趣。
It's the book before The Odyssey .
这是《奥德赛》之前的书。
That's the way I've always thought about it.
我一直都是这么想的。
And, I'm now about halfway through and we'll continue to read it as we continue this Book Club here at EconTalk.
而且，我现在已经读了一半了，我们将在 EconTalk 继续这个读书俱乐部的同时继续阅读它。
And, it's a stunning book.
而且，这是一本令人惊叹的书。
First of all, like The Odyssey , it's incredibly cinematic.
首先，就像《奥德赛》一样，它具有令人难以置信的电影感。
You referenced Hollywood: there's so many scenes that feel like you're watching a movie.
你提到了好莱坞：有很多场景感觉就像你在看电影。
A friend of mine says it's like reading a Tarantino script, because it's quite graphic.
我的一个朋友说这就像阅读塔伦蒂诺的剧本，因为它非常生动。
The violence isn't just, 'Oh, and he died,' or, 'This person killed this person.' Homer describes in detail where the arrow went and what the results are.
暴力不仅仅是“哦，他死了”，或者“这个人杀了这个人”。荷马详细描述了箭头的去向和结果。
Actually, for my generation, it's more like Sam Peckinpah.
事实上，对于我们这一代人来说，它更像是萨姆·佩金帕。
I date myself with that allusion.
我用这个暗示来约会自己。
The violence, it is quite graphic.
暴力，非常形象。
But it is--besides the language, which we'll try to give listeners a little bit of a flavor of it today--as you say, as a work of psychology, as a work of understanding the human heart in war, but not just in war, it's actually a small part of the book.
但它确实是——除了语言之外，我们今天将尝试让听众稍微了解一下它的味道——正如你所说，作为一部心理学作品，作为一部了解战争中人心的作品，但不仅仅是在战争中，它实际上只是本书的一小部分。
A lot of the books we'll talk about is about negotiation.
我们将讨论的很多书籍都是关于谈判的。
It's about frailty.
这是关于脆弱。
It's about ego.
这是关于自我。
It's about pride.
这是关于骄傲。
And, you're right, it all began here.
而且，你是对的，这一切都是从这里开始的。
Everyone's riffing on it in a certain way.
每个人都以某种方式重复它。
It's quite extraordinary.
这是相当非同寻常的。
Russ Roberts: Now you've read it many, many times, and you've taught it, more importantly, many, many times.
拉斯·罗伯茨：现在你已经读了很多很多遍了，更重要的是，你也教过很多很多遍了。
How do you read it differently than from, say, when you read it 10, 15 years ago, when you came to it as an adult for the first time?
与 10、15 年前，当你作为成年人第一次读到这本书时相比，你的阅读有何不同？
Ido Hevroni: First of all, the experience itself.
Ido Hevroni：首先是体验本身。
From year to year, I think I understand it better, especially because the way we teach it and I teach it, of course, in a dialogue with the students, the students are reading it.
年复一年，我想我对它的理解更好了，特别是因为我们教授它的方式以及我教授它的方式，当然，在与学生的对话中，学生们正在阅读它。
I don't lecture them about the book.
我不会向他们讲授这本书。
I don't tell them what to think about the book.
我不会告诉他们如何看待这本书。
They read it.
他们读了它。
They come to class.
他们来上课。
We have discussions.
我们有讨论。
And every discussion where the participants are serious usually would tell me something new about the book.
每次参与者认真的讨论通常都会告诉我一些关于这本书的新内容。
But, of course, we have the unique experience of teaching it now for the last three years for students who are returning from war.
但是，当然，在过去的三年里，我们拥有为从战争中归来的学生教授该课程的独特经验。
And not just the people who are warriors or participating in actual combat, but everyone here in Israel is now a part of a war, of an ongoing war.
不仅仅是那些战士或参加实战的人，以色列的每个人现在都是战争的一部分，一场正在进行的战争的一部分。
And, it really deepened the way I understand now the book and the way I can lead my students in reading it.
而且，它确实加深了我现在对这本书的理解以及我引导学生阅读它的方式。
Russ Roberts: I want to say something in passing about the Israeli army, because Israeli armies--the IDF [Israeli Defense Force]--gets a lot of bad press these days.
拉斯·罗伯茨：我想顺便谈谈以色列军队，因为以色列军队——以色列国防军——最近受到了很多负面报道。
I think it's important for people who don't live here to understand and remember that Israel's army is very unusual.
我认为对于不住在这里的人来说，了解并记住以色列军队非常不寻常是很重要的。
There is a large group of 18- and 19- and 20-year-olds who serve.
有一大群 18 岁、19 岁和 20 岁的人在服务。
And they are drafted.
他们被征召入伍。
Unlike in the United States, they almost--outside of the Arab-Israeli community, which is they're allowed to serve, but they're not required; and outside the ultra-Orthodox community where similarly they're allowed to serve but are not required--outside of those two communities, everyone serves in some fashion, and almost all of them in the army.
与美国不同，他们几乎在阿拉伯-以色列社区之外，他们被允许服务，但不是必需的；在极端正统社区之外，同样他们被允许服役，但不是必需的——在这两个社区之外，每个人都以某种方式服役，而且几乎所有人都在军队中。
And, you serve 18, 19, and 20; but the rest of your life, for many, many years, and some people--there's no age limit--are in what is called the Reserves.
而且，你服务于18岁、19岁和20岁；但你的余生，很多很多年，有些人——没有年龄限制——都在所谓的预备队。
And, in American parlance, when you hear that phrase, the Reserves, you think, 'Well, that's the backup if they're ever needed.' Well, the Reserves train regularly here, meaning once you've served in the army, you go back regularly to stay, quote, "in fighting shape" and knowledgeable shape.
而且，用美国人的话说，当你听到“预备队”这个词时，你会想，“好吧，如果需要的话，这就是后备力量。”嗯，预备役部队定期在这里训练，这意味着一旦你在军队服役，你就会定期回去留下来，引用“战斗状态”和知识渊博的状态。
But, more importantly, when there is a war, it's not like, 'Oh, some of the Reserves get called up.' They all get called up.
但更重要的是，当发生战争时，情况不会像“哦，一些预备役队员被征召入伍。”他们都被征召了。
And, here at Shalem, our students come--they're 25 years old on average when they get here.
而且，在 Shalem，我们的学生来到这里时平均年龄为 25 岁。
They've all served, and then they've done some other things often.
他们都服役过，然后他们还经常做一些其他的事情。
But, when the war broke out, they had to go back into the army.
但是，战争爆发后，他们不得不回到军队。
It's not like, 'Oh, they went to a thing in the back room where they kept the paperwork': They served in battle.
这不像，“哦，他们去了后面房间里保存文件的地方”：他们在战斗中服役。
And so, you are dealing, until recently--we're now sort of at peace--but you have been dealing for three years with people who are coming back from war, with having seen things that no human beings should have to see, having done things they are troubled about by definition because they involve death and destruction.
所以，直到最近，你所面对的——我们现在有点和平——但三年来，你一直在与那些从战争中归来的人们打交道，他们看到了人类不应该看到的事情，做了他们根据定义而感到困扰的事情，因为它们涉及死亡和破坏。
And, it's an overwhelming experience that you've told me that--and you've written about it; we'll link to some of your essays--reading this book, having come out of Gaza or Lebanon, is a therapeutic experience for them.
而且，你告诉我这一点是一次压倒性的经历——并且你还写下了它；我们将链接到您的一些文章——对于来自加沙或黎巴嫩的他们来说，阅读这本书是一种治疗经历。
It is a very different book than for the rest of us.
这是一本与我们其他人截然不同的书。
Ido Hevroni: Yes.
伊多·赫夫罗尼：是的。
And, after I started publishing about it, I heard a lot of reactions from veterans in America, which have the same experience.
而且，在我开始发表相关文章后，我听到了很多有相同经历的美国退伍军人的反应。
And I know that there are book clubs for veterans in all sorts of places, in many places in America, which do the same thing.
我知道美国各地都有退伍军人读书俱乐部，它们做着同样的事情。
I would just add that I myself was serving in the Reserve until I was 40.
我想补充一点，我自己在预备队服役直到 40 岁。
So, I know the experience.
所以，我知道这种经历。
I didn't participate in actual war like our students, but I have a son-in-law that is right now in Lebanon and last week lost a friend who was married.
我没有像我们的学生那样参加真正的战争，但我有一个女婿现在在黎巴嫩，上周失去了一个已婚的朋友。
So, the scenes from The Iliad speak to us directly.
所以，《伊利亚特》中的场景直接对我们说话。
But, I would also want to add--and you said something about it--because now the conversation sounds that it might be that the book fits only to people who really experienced war, but war is a place to examine humanity in a very deep way.
但是，我还想补充一点——你对此也说过一些话——因为现在的谈话听起来可能这本书只适合真正经历过战争的人，但战争是一个非常深入地审视人性的地方。
I would just quote Milan Kundera, the Czech writer.
我只想引用捷克作家米兰·昆德拉的话。
He said that literature is a laboratory where you can use it in order to understand better the human condition in all kinds of ways.
他说，文学是一个实验室，你可以利用它以各种方式更好地了解人类的状况。
In only literature, you can put people in situations where you are not allowed to do in actual life and to think about what would happen to the values.
只有在文学中，你才能将人们置于现实生活中不允许你做的情境中，并思考价值观会发生什么变化。
How would they act in front of danger, in front of something that breaks everything they believe in?
面对危险，面对打破他们所信仰的一切的事物，他们会如何行动？
How would someone would treat his wife and child when he has to serve his country?
当一个人必须为国家服务时，他会如何对待他的妻子和孩子？
And, again, doesn't matter what the cause is.
再说一次，原因是什么并不重要。
So, war is a great laboratory for literature to examine some basic assumptions and understandings about human life.
因此，战争是文学检验一些关于人类生活的基本假设和理解的伟大实验室。
And, this is why The Iliad is also, I think, important for people who are not participating, thank God, in war.
而且，这就是为什么我认为《伊利亚特》对于那些没有参与战争的人来说也很重要，感谢上帝。
Russ Roberts: Yeah.
拉斯·罗伯茨：是的。
The word that comes to mind when you talk about it is: it's a crucible.
当你谈论它时，你脑海中浮现的词是：它是一个坩埚。
It's a place where things get hammered out and transformed.
这是一个对事物进行锤炼和改造的地方。
And, of course, there's an extraordinary literature from war, everything from War and Peace , Norman Mailer's The Naked and the Dead , Catch-22 by Joseph Heller, many novels by Mark Helprin.
当然，还有来自战争的非凡文学，从《战争与和平》、诺曼·梅勒的《裸者与死者》、约瑟夫·海勒的《第二十二条军规》到马克·赫尔普林的许多小说，应有尽有。
These are places, these are fictional attempts to understand the human condition using the laboratory--the crucible of war--as a way to see human beings under the most intense conditions.
这些地方、这些都是虚构的尝试，目的是利用实验室——战争的熔炉——来了解人类在最激烈的条件下的处境。
Russ Roberts: Having said that, when I lived in America until I came here, war was something--it's in the history.
拉斯·罗伯茨：话虽如此，当我来到这里之前住在美国时，战争是一件事情——它已经成为历史。
I didn't love The Naked and the Dead .
我不喜欢《裸者与死者》。
I didn't love Catch-22 .
我不喜欢《第二十二条军规》。
It's kind of depressing, war.
战争，真是令人沮丧。
It's obviously unnatural.
这显然是不自然的。
And yet when you read The Iliad , you have to confront the reality that there is violence as part of the human condition from time immemorial.
然而，当你阅读《伊利亚特》时，你必须面对这样一个现实：自古以来，暴力就是人类状况的一部分。
It goes back to another ancient book that you and I know.
这可以追溯到你我都知道的另一本古书。
Cain and Abel is very early on in the Book of Genesis.
该隐和亚伯出现在《创世记》的早期。
It's about violence and combat.
这是关于暴力和战斗的。
Ido Hevroni: What's interesting is that it might be that people are now trying to avoid reading books about war, but maybe most of the movies we see are full with violence; and the series we watch, they are full with violence.
Ido Hevroni：有趣的是，人们现在可能正在努力避免阅读有关战争的书籍，但也许我们看到的大多数电影都充满了暴力；我们看的连续剧充满了暴力。
And, what they lack--first of all, they are more graphic than reading.
而且，它们所缺乏的——首先，它们比阅读更形象。
Reading gives you the opportunity to be a little bit distant and think about things, but when you watch it, you cannot be distant from it.
阅读让你有机会拉开一点距离去思考一些事情，但是当你看的时候，你就无法远离它。
Your imagination works less, and your judgment work less when you watch a movie.
当你看电影时，你的想象力会减弱，你的判断力也会减弱。
So when you read, and when you read a deep book, you are doing a much better, I think, work than watching a movie which involves violence.
因此，当你阅读时，当你读一本有深度的书时，我认为，你所做的工作比观看一部涉及暴力的电影要好得多。
It gives you the opportunity to train your muscles, your moral.
它让你有机会训练你的肌肉和道德。
The muscles of morality, you can train them much better when you read and you not watch it.
道德的肌肉，当你阅读而不是观看时，你可以更好地训练它们。
So, it might be even better to recommend people to read books about war than watching movies about war.
因此，建议人们阅读有关战争的书籍可能比观看有关战争的电影更好。
Russ Roberts: It's a very interesting observation that so much of our popular culture is about violence.
拉斯·罗伯茨：这是一个非常有趣的观察，我们的流行文化中有很多都是关于暴力的。
A friend of mine, a rabbi, was in the hospital for a procedure, and he didn't own a television.
我的一个拉比朋友正在医院接受手术，但他没有电视机。
And so, in his hospital room, there was a TV going 24/7, which is often the case in American hospitals.
因此，在他的病房里，有一台24/7的电视，这在美国医院很常见。
And I asked him what it was like to watch TV.
我问他看电视是什么感觉。
I mean, he didn't, like, close his eyes.
我的意思是，他没有闭上眼睛。
He watched it.
他看着它。
He's a pretty morally serious person.
他是一个在道德上相当严肃的人。
I said, 'What did you think about it?' He said, 'Eh,' he shrugged.
我说：“你觉得怎么样？”他说，“呃，”他耸耸肩。
He said, 'A lot of kissing and killing.' And, The Iliad , there's a little bit of kissing--not much--but it's mostly killing; but there's a lot more than just kissing and killing, I would say.
他说，“很多亲吻和杀戮。” 《伊利亚特》里有一点接吻——不多——但主要是杀戮；但我想说，不仅仅是亲吻和杀戮。
The other thought I have about popular culture is that there are many, many times in this book when I think about superheroes.
我对流行文化的另一个想法是，在这本书中，我有很多很多次想到超级英雄。
These are not normal soldiers.
这些不是普通的士兵。
These are superheroes.
这些都是超级英雄。
Achilles is Superman.
阿基里斯是超人。
He's Spider-Man.
他是蜘蛛侠。
He's Daredevil.
他是夜魔侠。
Hector on the Trojan side--Achilles is Greek, Hector is Trojan--Hector is invincible, or at least seems invincible, until he faces another superhero.
特洛伊一方的赫克托耳——阿喀琉斯是希腊人，赫克托耳是特洛伊人——赫克托耳是无敌的，或者至少看起来是无敌的，直到他面对另一个超级英雄。
But, these are people who, the normal rules of combat don't apply to them.
但是，这些人，正常的战斗规则并不适用于他们。
And so, when we watch the Avengers, say--this team of gods and goddesses come into war or into battle--it's straight out of Homer.
因此，当我们观看《复仇者联盟》时，比如说，这支由众神和女神组成的队伍卷入战争或战斗，这完全是荷马史诗中的情节。
I felt like I was reading the Avengers a number of times when I'm reading this book.
当我读这本书的时候，我感觉自己好像在读《复仇者联盟》很多次。
Ido Hevroni: Right.
伊多·赫夫罗尼：对。
But, you get the lesser version when you watch the Avengers--with all due respect, of course.
但是，当你观看《复仇者联盟》时，你会看到较小的版本——当然，恕我直言。
But, many psychologists, starting, I assume, with Freud and then with Jung, Rollo May in America, were speaking about the need for myth and even the desperate need for myth after the Enlightenment--after burying the big myths, right?
但是，我想，从弗洛伊德开始，然后到美国的荣格、罗洛·梅，许多心理学家都在谈论对神话的需要，甚至在启蒙运动之后对神话的迫切需要——在埋葬了大神话之后，对吗？
It became a synonymous to a lie.
它成了谎言的代名词。
But, that was not the truth in the beginning.
但是，事实并非如此。
A myth is a way to say something about the world in a very, very deep way, which sometimes you cannot say in a realistic novel.
神话是一种以非常非常深刻的方式讲述世界的方式，有时你在现实小说中无法做到这一点。
So, again, if we're dealing with it anyhow, I think that these books are offering us a much serious way to think about aspects of our lives than the commercial cinema.
所以，再说一次，如果我们无论如何都要处理这个问题，我认为这些书为我们提供了一种比商业电影更严肃的方式来思考我们生活的各个方面。
Russ Roberts: That's a fantastic point about myths.
拉斯·罗伯茨：这是关于神话的一个精彩观点。
Yeah, it's so true.
是的，这是真的。
Russ Roberts: Let's talk a little bit about a part of the book I didn't expect.
拉斯·罗伯茨：让我们来谈谈这本书中我没有想到的部分。
Again, my education is inadequate.
再次，我的教育水平不够。
I thought the book was about--first of all, I thought it was about the Trojan War.
我认为这本书是关于——首先，我认为它是关于特洛伊战争的。
It's not.
它不是。
It's about an episode in the Trojan War that takes place nine years after the war started.
这是关于特洛伊战争的一个插曲，发生在战争开始九年后。
So, it's kind of in the middle, and you don't get much about how we got here from there--yeah--got here from there.
所以，它处于中间位置，你不太了解我们是如何从那里到达这里的——是的——从那里到达这里。
But, the other fascinating piece about this when you read the book for the first time--and I want to alert readers to it and listeners--is the role of the gods.
但是，当你第一次读这本书时，关于这一点的另一篇有趣的文章——我想提醒读者和听众——是众神的角色。
Now, one of my favorite children's books is called Something from Nothing .
现在，我最喜欢的一本儿童读物是《从无到有》。
And it's about a family that--the father is a tailor, and he's constantly salvaging and repurposing clothing.
这是关于一个家庭的故事——父亲是一名裁缝，他不断地回收和重新利用衣服。
So, what starts as a shirt turns out to be a vest, and then it's a handkerchief--and then a tie, then a handkerchief.
所以，一开始是衬衫，后来变成了背心，然后是手帕——然后是领带，然后是手帕。
I can't remember all the steps.
我不记得所有步骤了。
Doesn't matter.
没关系。
But in the version I like, under the floorboards of the house, there's a family of mice, and they're leading their own lives while the humans are doing their thing, in this situation.
但在我喜欢的版本中，在房子的地板下，有一群老鼠，在这种情况下，它们过着自己的生活，而人类则在做自己的事情。
The mice are also trying to repurpose things, and they pick up scraps, a thread here and a thread there, and they're doing stuff.
老鼠们也试图重新利用东西，它们捡起废料，这里一根线，那里一根线，他们正在做一些事情。
And, this book, The Iliad , has the same bizarre two-tiered motif.
而且，《伊利亚特》这本书也有同样奇怪的两层主题。
The human beings are struggling, doing the best they can; they're failing constantly.
人类在奋斗，在尽力；他们不断失败。
At the same time, there's this incredible conflict going on in Olympus between the gods, who are also sparring and fighting and negotiating and maneuvering like the humans are.
与此同时，奥林匹斯诸神之间正在发生令人难以置信的冲突，他们也像人类一样争吵、战斗、谈判和机动。
And, their fights, which are often quite petty, spill over into the pettiness of human affairs.
而且，他们的争斗往往是相当琐碎的，却蔓延到了人类事务的琐事中。
So, talk about the role of the gods in this book.
那么，说说这本书中诸神的角色吧。
Ido Hevroni: I am, of course, speaking from my point of view.
Ido Hevroni：当然，我是从我的角度来说的。
It's not clear that that was exactly the point of view of the ancient Greeks.
目前尚不清楚这是否正是古希腊人的观点。
But let's start with explaining to the listeners that if they are coming to it with the expectations of monotheism, doesn't matter whether what kind of monotheism they believe or disbelieve, but they're familiar with monotheism.
但首先让我们向听众解释一下，如果他们带着对一神论的期望来到这里，不管他们相信或不相信哪种一神论，但他们熟悉一神论。
This is polytheism in its best, I think.
我认为，这是最好的多神论。
And, the gods are not the creators of the world.
而且，诸神并不是世界的创造者。
Let's start with that.
让我们从那开始吧。
And the gods--and that's what usually is very much amazing--are not in charge of morality.
而诸神——这通常是非常令人惊奇的——并不掌管道德。
They do not care for morality.
他们不关心道德。
On the contrary, human beings are much more interested in morality or in need for morals in order to live together.
相反，人类对道德更感兴趣，或者需要道德才能共同生活。
The gods are powers.
诸神就是力量。
They're not just natural powers; they are much beyond that.
它们不仅是自然力量，也是自然力量。他们远不止于此。
We can think about them today as psychological powers or even beyond that, and understanding that, in a way, if one want to describe or even to understand better the world, one has to take into account the fact that there are powers beyond our power or beyond a human being.
今天我们可以将它们视为心理力量，甚至超越心理力量，并理解，在某种程度上，如果一个人想要描述甚至更好地理解世界，就必须考虑到存在超出我们能力或超越人类能力的力量这一事实。
This is, I think, what they can give us again back, something which was the notion of every man and woman before the great break of the great religions.
我认为，这就是他们可以再次回报给我们的东西，这是伟大宗教大崩溃之前每个男人和女人的观念。
So, let's take, for example, Aphrodite.
那么，让我们以阿芙罗狄蒂为例。
Aphrodite is a very, very important character in this book because basically she started everything.
阿芙罗狄蒂是这本书中非常非常重要的角色，因为基本上一切都是她开始的。
So, let's start from the beginning, right?
那么，让我们从头开始吧？
Let's tell something about the background.
让我们谈谈背景。
The background is what is called the Judgment of Paris; but it started a little bit before that.
其背景就是所谓的“巴黎审判”；但事情早在那之前就开始了。
So, let's start really from the beginning.
那么，让我们从头开始吧。
So, it starts with Thetis.
所以，事情要从忒提斯开始。
What I'm telling right now, part of it is discovered during the book, but that was a common knowledge to the readers.
我现在所说的，有一部分是在书中发现的，但那是读者的常识。
So, Homer didn't have to put all the introductions because they knew it.
所以，荷马不必把所有的介绍都放出来，因为他们都知道。
They believed in it, right?
他们相信这一点，对吗？
That was the culture.
这就是文化。
So, in the background, we have the upper, the Olympian gods.
所以，在背景中，我们有上层的奥林匹斯众神。
Above them all, of course, Zeus; his brother, Poseidon, who is in charge of the seas; and Hades, which is in charge of what beneath earth, which is, of course, the realm of the dead.
当然，最重要的是宙斯。他的兄弟波塞冬掌管海洋；哈迪斯掌管地下世界，当然，也就是死者的国度。
And they all fall in love with Thetis, which is a sea goddess, but there's a prophecy that the son of Thetis is going to be stronger than his father.
他们都爱上了海洋女神忒提斯，但有一个预言，忒提斯的儿子将比他的父亲更强大。
And that's, of course, a huge threat for any ruler.
当然，这对任何统治者来说都是一个巨大的威胁。
So, they decide among themselves to not let her marry a god--because then they will have a super-god, which is not good for them, of course.
所以，他们决定不让她嫁给神——因为那样他们就会有一个超级神，这当然对他们不利。
But, she is going to be married to a human being, to a mortal.
但是，她将要嫁给一个人，一个凡人。
Another word in Greek for gods is i -mortals.
希腊语中表示神的另一个词是 i - mortals。
That's exactly what defines them as unique and not like human beings.
这正是将它们定义为独特且不同于人类的原因。
We are mortals.
我们都是凡人。
They are im mortals.
他们是凡人。
And that, of course, affects everything from character to what they are looking for in the world.
当然，这会影响从性格到他们在世界上寻找的一切。
And, they decide to take her to Peleus.
并且，他们决定带她去珀琉斯。
She's getting married, and, of course, they do not invite Strife, which is a goddess, to the wedding.
她要结婚了，当然，他们没有邀请女神斯特莱夫参加婚礼。
She's, of course, you know it, I assume, from Sleeping Beauty .
当然，我想你知道，她来自《睡美人》。
It recounts the same basic story.
它讲述了相同的基本故事。
And, during the wedding, Strife throws into the palace, or wherever this wedding is taking place, a golden apple, which, upon it is written, 'to the fairest of them all.' And, three goddesses are at war over who has to take the apple.
并且，在婚礼期间，斯特莱夫向宫殿或婚礼举行的任何地方扔了一个金苹果，上面写着“给他们中最美丽的人”。而且，三位女神正在为谁应该得到苹果而发生战争。
It's Aphrodite, it's Hera, and it's Athena.
这是阿佛洛狄忒，这是赫拉，这是雅典娜。
And so, let's say something about the three of them.
那么，让我们谈谈他们三个人吧。
So, Aphrodite usually is considered to be the goddess of beauty, but she's the goddess of sex.
因此，阿芙罗狄蒂通常被认为是美丽女神，但她实际上是性女神。
She is the goddess in charge of the impulse that drives human beings and animals to mate and to have children.
她是掌管人类和动物交配和生育的冲动的女神。
And, we are familiar with this drive, right?
而且，我们很熟悉这个驱动器，对吧？
You can call it the genes, right?
你可以称之为基因，对吗？
The genes which moves us towards the other sex in order to have more children.
为了生育更多的孩子而使我们转向异性的基因。
You can see it--right?--if you look at the animals, you can see it everywhere.
你可以看到它——对吗？——如果你观察动物，你到处都可以看到它。
So, she's in charge of this.
所以，这件事由她负责。
She is this power; and beauty, of course, serves this power.
她就是这种力量；当然，美是为这种力量服务的。
This is why she's connected to beauty; but it's not beauty for itself.
这就是为什么她与美丽联系在一起；但这本身并不是美丽。
Hera is the ruler.
赫拉是统治者。
She's the woman ruler--and they could imagine a woman ruler.
她是女统治者——他们可以想象一位女统治者。
She's the wife of Zeus, but she's also the queen of [inaudible 00:27:20 ?Argeia?].
她是宙斯的妻子，但她也是[听不清00:27:20？Argeia？]的女王。
And Athena is very unique because Athena is a woman--and this is clear--but her sexuality is a non-issue.
雅典娜非常独特，因为雅典娜是一名女性——这一点很明显——但她的性取向不是问题。
We have almost no records of partners--of sexual partners--of Athena.
我们几乎没有雅典娜的伴侣——性伴侣——的记录。
She's very smart.
她很聪明。
She's the goddess of smartness, of strategy, and of weaving together.
她是聪明、策略和编织的女神。
So, it's a good question, right?
所以，这是个好问题，对吧？
Who deserve--who is more important?
谁值得——谁更重要？
The one who drives us to have children, the one who gives us the option to be rulers, or the one who gives us strategy and power in war and the power to organize our homes, which is what she gives to women?
是那个驱使我们生孩子的人，是那个给我们成为统治者的选择的人，还是那个给我们战争中的战略和权力以及组织我们的家庭的权力的人，这就是她赋予女性的？
So, instead to judge, the gods don't want to judge between them.
所以，诸神并不想在他们之间进行审判，而是审判。
They send Paris, who is Alexandros, who is the young prince of Troy.
他们派出了帕里斯，他就是亚历山德罗斯，特洛伊的年轻王子。
And, this is how it starts.
而且，事情就是这样开始的。
Every goddess offers him something because it's not a real competition.
每个女神都会为他提供一些东西，因为这不是真正的竞争。
It's more about what would a young ruler choose to do with the power he got, right?
更多的是关于一个年轻的统治者会选择如何利用他所获得的权力，对吧？
Aphrodite promises him the best sex ever--which means being together with Helen, which is the most beautiful woman on earth.
阿佛洛狄忒许诺给他最好的性爱——这意味着与地球上最美丽的女人海伦在一起。
Who is married.
谁结婚了。
But, of course, Aphrodite is not interested in marriage.
但是，当然，阿芙罗狄蒂对婚姻不感兴趣。
Marriage is an arrangement or social arrangement.
婚姻是一种安排或社会安排。
Hera is in charge of marriage because she's interested in politics, in society, in the ways a society holds together.
赫拉负责婚姻，因为她对政治、社会、社会的团结方式感兴趣。
Then you need rules, right?
那你需要规则，对吗？
Then you need laws of marriage.
那么你需要婚姻法。
But, Aphrodite is not interested in that.
但是，阿芙罗狄蒂对此不感兴趣。
And, again, everyone who involved with sex knows that sex doesn't know rules.
再说一遍，所有参与性爱的人都知道，性是没有规则的。
So, this is Aphrodite; and she promises; and he chooses her, which is a poor decision for a young prince to choose, to use his power in order to enjoy life instead of giving something to the society he is going to be one day the ruler of.
所以，这是阿芙罗狄蒂；她承诺；他选择了她，这对于一位年轻的王子来说是一个糟糕的决定，他利用自己的权力来享受生活，而不是为他有一天将成为统治者的社会做出一些贡献。
And, he's going to visit Menelaus, who lives in Sparta, right?
而且，他要去拜访住在斯巴达的墨涅拉俄斯，对吗？
It's across the sea.
这是隔海相望的。
Troy is on the shores, in the eastern shores.
特洛伊位于东海岸的海岸上。
Eastern, right?
东方吧？
Western --
西餐——
Ido Hevroni: Western shores of Turkey today.
Ido Hevroni：今天的土耳其西海岸。
This is the place we think they were.
这就是我们认为他们所在的地方。
So, if you cross the sea, you go to Sparta, which is part of the Peloponnese, and then he is a guest of Menelaus, the king of this place.
所以，如果你漂洋过海，你去了斯巴达，那是伯罗奔尼撒半岛的一部分，然后他就是这个地方的国王墨涅拉俄斯的客人。
And, Menelaus one day goes out of home, so Paris takes his beautiful wife, Helen, and goes back with her to Troy.
有一天，墨涅拉俄斯离家出走，帕里斯带着他美丽的妻子海伦回到了特洛伊。
And, this is how the whole story begins.
而且，这就是整个故事的开始。
So, when he brings her home, of course, Menelaus calls his brother, Agamemnon, and all the other kings who rule small cities all around Greece, and they go together in order to bring back the wife of Menelaus.
因此，当他带她回家时，墨涅拉俄斯当然会打电话给他的兄弟阿伽门农，以及统治希腊各地小城市的所有其他国王，他们一起去把墨涅拉俄斯的妻子带回来。
And, this is how the Trojan War starts.
特洛伊战争就是这样开始的。
But, all of this is the background, and it's not in the book itself.
但是，所有这些都是背景，而不是书本身。
Russ Roberts: And, the King of Troy is Priam, or Priam.
拉斯·罗伯茨：而且，特洛伊国王是普里阿摩斯，或者说普里阿摩斯。
He has an enormous number of sons.
他有为数众多的儿子。
He has many wives, obviously.
显然他有很多妻子。
The most prominent sons and their role in the book--remember, this is Troy, so it's going to be a war between Troy--the Trojans--and the Greeks.
最著名的儿子们和他们在书中的角色——记住，这是特洛伊，所以这将是特洛伊——特洛伊人——和希腊人之间的一场战争。
His most prominent sons as warriors are Hector--who is a superhero, as I suggested earlier--and Paris.
作为战士，他最著名的儿子是赫克托（正如我之前提到的，他是一位超级英雄）和帕里斯。
But he has others, and they play a role in the book, which we may or may not get to.
但他还有其他人，他们在书中发挥了作用，我们可能会也可能不会。
But, the book opens.
但是，书打开了。
Let me read the opening of the book.
让我读一下这本书的开头。
Tell listeners what the opening of the book is called.
告诉听众这本书的开头叫什么。
Ido Hevroni: It is a proem .
Ido Hevroni：这是一个预演。
It is a proem.
这是一个舞会。
It's the invocation of the muse.
这是缪斯女神的召唤。
The poet, which is a human being, presents himself like the prophets presented themselves, as just a tunnel for the godly voice.
诗人，作为一个人，像先知一样展现自己，只是神圣声音的隧道。
So, the proem, the beginning, is the introduction, but it is the calling for--it's a summoning of the muse to come and speak through the thought of the poet to tell the story.
所以，序言，开头，是引言，但它是召唤——它是对缪斯的召唤，通过诗人的思想来讲述这个故事。
Russ Roberts: And, it's proem, P-R-O-E-M.
Russ Roberts：而且，这是 proem，P-R-O-E-M。
Tell me if I have this right.
告诉我我是否有这个权利。
It's a poetic prologue.
这是一个充满诗意的序幕。
Is that a correct--
这是正确的吗——
Ido Hevroni: Right.
伊多·赫夫罗尼：对。
Pro: it's before .
优点：是之前的。
It's before the story starts.
这是在故事开始之前。
Russ Roberts: So, it's fun to read.
拉斯·罗伯茨：所以，读起来很有趣。
I have many editions, but as I said before, we're going to read the translation of Robert Fagles, which I find particularly grand, and I enjoy very much.
我有很多版本，但正如我之前所说，我们将阅读罗伯特·法格尔斯的译本，我觉得它特别伟大，我非常喜欢。
I left my hard copy at home, so I am now scrolling through my Kindle version, which is hard to find, by the way.
我把硬拷贝留在家里了，所以我现在正在浏览我的 Kindle 版本，顺便说一句，很难找到它。
If you want to read The Iliad on your Kindle, if you go to the Fagles paperback or hardcover and you go to the Kindle version, it's not always the actual Fagles translation on the Kindle version.
如果您想在 Kindle 上阅读《伊利亚特》，如果您选择 Fagles 平装本或精装本，然后选择 Kindle 版本，则它并不总是 Kindle 版本上的实际 Fagles 翻译。
So, we will put a link up to the Kindle version of the Fagles translation.
因此，我们将提供 Fagles 翻译的 Kindle 版本的链接。
But, here's how The Iliad starts.
但是，《伊利亚特》是这样开始的。
And, I just would remind listeners that Peleus, as you mentioned, is the husband of Thetis.
而且，我只是想提醒听众，正如您提到的，珀琉斯是忒提斯的丈夫。
Thetis is a goddess.
忒提斯是一位女神。
Peleus is a mortal who is her husband, because that way their child will not be that dangerous; and that's going to be Achilles.
珀琉斯是一个凡人，也是她的丈夫，因为这样他们的孩子就不会那么危险；那就是阿喀琉斯。
So, let me just say one other thing.
那么，让我再说一件事。
Like the Bible, there are many times in Homer where people are identified by their parents--typically their father.
与《圣经》一样，荷马史诗中多次提到人们是通过父母（通常是父亲）来识别的。
Zeus is often called the son of Cronus.
宙斯通常被称为克洛诺斯的儿子。
Achilles is called the son of Peleus.
阿喀琉斯被称为珀琉斯的儿子。
Agamemnon and Menelaus are brothers.
阿伽门农和墨涅拉俄斯是兄弟。
Their father is, I think, Atreides.
我认为他们的父亲是厄崔迪。
Ido Hevroni: Atreus.
伊多·赫夫罗尼：阿特柔斯。
They are Atreides because they are the sons of Atreus.
他们是阿崔迪，因为他们是阿特柔斯的儿子。
Russ Roberts: So, again, if you're reading this for the first time, it's a little bewildering.
拉斯·罗伯茨：所以，如果你是第一次读到这篇文章，这会有点令人困惑。
You just keep reading, folks, and eventually it straightens out.
伙计们，你只要继续阅读，最终就会弄清楚。
The Fagles edition, by the way, has an enormous glossary, very frightening.
顺便说一句，法格尔斯版有一个巨大的词汇表，非常可怕。
How many people are in the glossary, roughly?
词汇表中大约有多少人？
Ido Hevroni: I don't remember in the glossary, but in the book itself, there are more than a thousand private [?proper?] names.
Ido Hevroni：我不记得词汇表中的内容，但在本书本身中，有一千多个私人[？专有？]名称。
Ido Hevroni: I think the glossary doesn't mention all of them.
Ido Hevroni：我认为术语表并未提及所有这些内容。
Russ Roberts: So, don't be alarmed by that, but it does have a bit of the Russian-novel problem: that at first, not only are people sometimes identified by their father's name--which is also very Russian, by the way, their patronymic--but they have multiple names.
拉斯·罗伯茨：所以，不要对此感到惊慌，但这确实有一点俄罗斯小说的问题：首先，人们有时不仅通过他们父亲的名字来识别——顺便说一句，这也是非常俄罗斯化的父名——而且他们有多个名字。
But, it's not that complicated.
但是，事情并没有那么复杂。
You figure it out pretty quickly.
你很快就明白了。
And, I'll just mention this now to have it.
而且，我现在就提一下这一点。
The Greeks are called the Achaeans.
希腊人被称为亚该亚人。
They're called the Argives.
他们被称为阿尔戈斯人。
They're called the Danaans.
他们被称为达南人。
They're all the same.
他们都是一样的。
They're the people besieging Troy trying to get Helen back from having been stolen, kidnapped, and taken by Paris.
他们是围攻特洛伊的人们，试图将海伦从帕里斯偷走、绑架和带走中救回来。
Ido Hevroni: I assume that for the original audience, the background is known.
Ido Hevroni：我认为对于最初的观众来说，背景是已知的。
The story is known.
这个故事是众所周知的。
And, it's very important for the bard--for the singer, for the person who is enacting right now the poem--because it was a tradition of enacting it in front of audiences and, of course, remembering it by heart, but also putting modifications into it when it's not one bard who sings like the other.
而且，这对于吟游诗人、歌手、现在正在表演这首诗的人来说非常重要，因为这是一种在观众面前表演这首诗的传统，当然，要牢记它，但当一个吟游诗人唱得不同时，也会对其进行修改。
So, it starts with telling us exactly what is he going to focus on.
因此，首先要告诉我们他将重点关注什么。
And, this is a small part, as you said, from the whole big story.
而且，正如你所说，这只是整个大故事的一小部分。
So, the background is a background.
所以，背景就是背景。
The Trojan War is the background of the story itself, but here we are going to focus, and the focus is the first word, 'Rage.' This book is going to deal with rage, and a specific rage: the rage of Achilles.
特洛伊战争是故事本身的背景，但这里我们要重点关注，重点是第一个词“愤怒”。本书将讨论愤怒，一种特定的愤怒：阿喀琉斯的愤怒。
This is the beginning, and the whole book is about what happens, how it starts, and how it ends, and what happens during the time that Achilles is angry.
这就是开始，整本书都是在讲发生了什么，如何开始，又如何结束，以及阿喀琉斯生气的时候发生了什么。
And, we know from the beginning what happened: a lot of people were killed--his brothers.
而且，我们从一开始就知道发生了什么：很多人被杀——他的兄弟。
He doesn't speak about the Trojans which are dying because of his anger.
他没有谈论因他的愤怒而死去的特洛伊人。
It is about his brothers-in-arms who are dying because of his anger.
这是关于他的战友因他的愤怒而死去的故事。
So, it's more about what happens within the Greek army when one of the most important fellows is going out because he's very angry.
所以，更多的是当希腊军队中最重要的人之一因为非常生气而外出时发生的事情。
What happens to them and especially what happens to him ; again, what breaks the anger, and what would eventually bring him back to fight with his partners, but again, not until the end.
他们发生了什么，尤其是他发生了什么；再次，是什么打破了愤怒，什么最终让他回来与他的伙伴们战斗，但同样，直到最后。
The end doesn't matter in this book.
在这本书里，结局并不重要。
How it ends, you will have to read The Odyssey , which would recount backwards what happened before Odysseus went to his journey home.
结局如何，你得读一下《奥德赛》，它会倒叙奥德修斯回家之前发生的事情。
Russ Roberts: Before we talk a little bit more about his rage--and this is a very outdated concept, but you cannot understand the book without it, you and I having talked about it elsewhere.
拉斯·罗伯茨：在我们更多地谈论他的愤怒之前——这是一个非常过时的概念，但如果没有它，你就无法理解这本书，你和我已经在其他地方谈论过它。
The role of women in this culture--it's a warrior culture.
女性在这种文化中的角色——这是一种武士文化。
It's very hard for us to understand, but you can't really understand the book without understanding their role.
我们很难理解，但如果不了解他们的角色，你就无法真正理解这本书。
There is love, there's lust, women have power; but they also play a role as objects that's very, very uncomfortable for the modern readers.
有爱，有欲望，女人有力量；但它们也扮演着让现代读者感到非常非常不舒服的物体的角色。
So, talk about that.
那么，谈谈这个吧。
Ido Hevroni: Women are part of the trophies.
Ido Hevroni：女性是奖杯的一部分。
When you sack a city, you're taking everything therein, right?
当你洗劫一座城市时，你就夺走了其中的一切，对吗？
You will kill the combatants--the men--because they are a threat to you.
你会杀死战斗人员——男人——因为他们对你构成威胁。
But you will use the women as slaves, sometimes even sex slaves.
但你会把女人当作奴隶，有时甚至是性奴隶。
So, it's very hard for us to understand.
所以，我们很难理解。
But, this is at the heart of the quarrel that initiates--ignites--the whole book, the whole plot of this book.
但是，这正是引发——点燃——整本书、这本书的整个情节的争论的核心。
Russ Roberts: So, I want to take us one step forward with another plot development.
拉斯·罗伯茨：所以，我想带领我们在另一个情节发展上向前迈进一步。
I hope this isn't too complicated for listeners, but basically in a previous engagement, Achilles has--remember, he's a superhero.
我希望这对听众来说不会太复杂，但基本上在之前的约会中，阿基里斯已经——记住，他是一个超级英雄。
He's Greek, he's on the Greek side.
他是希腊人，他站在希腊一边。
He's in a war.
他正处于战争之中。
He takes a woman, Briseis.
他娶了一个女人，布里塞斯。
Now Briseis--Achilles kills her husband, kills her brothers, takes her as a war prize.
现在，布里塞伊斯——阿喀琉斯杀死了她的丈夫，杀死了她的兄弟，把她当作战利品。
So when the story opens, Briseis belongs to Achilles.
所以当故事开始时，布里塞伊斯属于阿喀琉斯。
And Agamemnon--this we don't have to go into--but he has a war prize also, and he has to give her up.
还有阿伽门农——这个我们不必讨论——但他也有战争奖品，他必须放弃她。
So, he decides because he deserves it--he's the King--he takes Briseis from Achilles.
所以，他决定因为他应得的——他是国王——他从阿喀琉斯手中夺走了布里塞伊斯。
And this is what causes Achilles to be angry.
这就是阿喀琉斯生气的原因。
And strangely--perhaps, as we'll see when we look at some other decisions people make--he refuses to fight.
奇怪的是——也许，正如我们在观察人们做出的其他一些决定时会看到的那样——他拒绝战斗。
And more than that: he watches his comrades be slaughtered by Hector, sometimes by the gods in their intervention.
不仅如此：他看着他的战友被赫克托屠杀，有时还被诸神干预屠杀。
The gods intervene constantly in pursuit of their own political economy goals.
众神为了追求自己的政治经济目标而不断干预。
I want to read the passage where Agamemnon justifies stealing Achilles' compensation.
我想读一下阿伽门农为窃取阿喀琉斯报酬而辩护的段落。
He says the following about Briseis--no, excuse me--about the woman he lost.
他说了以下关于布里塞斯的事——不，对不起——关于他失去的女人。
Russ Roberts: Chryseis, the woman he lost.
拉斯·罗伯茨：Chryseis，他失去的女人。
This is going to be a very costly speech for him.
对他来说，这将是一次代价高昂的演讲。
You're going to talk about it.
你会谈论它。
He says the following:
他说：
So, he's basically saying, 'I'm an altruist.
所以，他基本上是在说，‘我是一个利他主义者。
Sure, I want to do the right thing, but surely I deserve what I'm entitled to.' And then, Homer continues, which is an unbelievable speech from an economist's point of view.
当然，我想做正确的事，但我当然应该得到我应得的。”然后，荷马继续说道，从经济学家的角度来看，这是一次令人难以置信的演讲。
He says, "But, the swift runner," and this is a common adjective for Achilles.
他说：“但是，跑得快的人”，这是阿喀琉斯的常用形容词。
He's often called the swift runner.
他经常被称为“跑得快的人”。
So, this is a scene.
所以，这是一个场景。
And we're going to see another version of it a little bit later that I hope we'll get to today.
稍后我们会看到它的另一个版本，我希望我们今天能看到。
It's a negotiation.
这是一场谈判。
Basically Agamemnon is saying, 'I'm sorry this woman I got is causing so much trouble.
基本上，阿伽门农是在说：‘我很抱歉我的这个女人造成了这么多麻烦。
I'll give her back, but you got to compensate me, and I want what you've got, Achilles.' And, Achilles, he says, 'You'll get something else.' He says, 'Well, where am I going to get that from?
我会把她还给我，但你必须补偿我，我想要你所拥有的，阿喀琉斯。而且，阿喀琉斯，他说，“你会得到别的东西。”他说，‘那么，我从哪里得到这个呢？
Where's the stuff laying around that hasn't been handed out yet?
那些还没有分发出去的东西在哪里？
Everything's been parceled out, baby.
一切都已经安排好了，宝贝。
We've already handed out all the booty, so that's not going to work.
我们已经把所有的战利品都拿出来了，所以这是行不通的。
You'll get yours someday if we win.
如果我们赢了，有一天你就会得到你的。
There'll be other spoils down the road.' So, that's where they're at in the negotiation, but of course, Agamemnon does not find that persuasive.
路上还会有其他战利品。所以，这就是他们在谈判中所处的位置，但当然，阿伽门农认为这没有说服力。
And, talk about what happens.
并且，谈谈发生了什么。
Ido Hevroni: Achilles doesn't find it persuasive--
Ido Hevroni：阿喀琉斯觉得这没有说服力——
Ido Hevroni: So, just one remark about the dirty talk of Agamemnon, which might be a dirty talk of soldiers, of course, about women.
伊多·赫夫罗尼：所以，我只想说一句关于阿伽门农的肮脏言论，这可能是士兵的肮脏言论，当然，是关于妇女的言论。
You can hear soldiers speaking about wives and women in this way, but again, this is not the major topic.
你可以听到士兵用这种方式谈论妻子和女人，但同样，这不是主要话题。
The major issue is that this is not a writing society.
主要问题是这不是一个写作社会。
They do not write.
他们不写。
The only way to understand who is more important than the other is to watch--and again, this is the same as today.
了解谁比另一个更重要的唯一方法就是观察——这和今天是一样的。
If you're going to visit a high-tech company and you enter through the garage, the common garage, you would immediately know where the head of the company parks, right?
如果你要去参观一家高科技公司，从车库进入，普通车库，你马上就知道公司领导把车停在哪里，对吗？
It would be nearest to the elevator, of course; and he will have the newest model of whatever car they give the workers.
当然，它会离电梯最近；无论他们给工人提供什么汽车，他都会拥有最新型号的汽车。
So, it is still very, very important.
所以，它还是非常非常重要的。
This is hierarchy, and we still think through hierarchy, and still hierarchy is very important.
这就是层次结构，我们仍然通过层次结构来思考，而且层次结构仍然非常重要。
Let's think right now that the head of the company has a leaking roof in his beautiful office, and he has to evacuate the office.
现在让我们想象一下，公司负责人他漂亮的办公室屋顶漏水，他必须撤离办公室。
So, do you think he's going to sit in the kitchen?
那么，你认为他会坐在厨房里吗？
He's not going to sit in the kitchen, right?
他不会坐在厨房里，对吗？
He's going to evacuate the next in line from his office in order to have the best office available right now.
他将疏散办公室里的下一个排队人员，以便拥有目前最好的办公室。
So, if you think about it like that, you understand that this is very rational.
所以，如果你这样想的话，你就会明白这是非常有道理的。
And, as you talked about it, Agamemnon knows how to present his case, right?
而且，正如您所说，阿伽门农知道如何陈述他的观点，对吧？
He raises the price of what he's giving up on in order to convince the others that he's really justified that he will take another one instead as long as his was taken from him.
他提高了他所放弃的东西的价格，以便让其他人相信，只要他的东西被从他手中夺走，他确实有理由接受另一件东西。
So, it's still, I think, important even today.
因此，我认为即使在今天，它仍然很重要。
Russ Roberts: So, just bring in my favorite Smith quote, 'Man naturally desires not only to be loved, but to be lovely.' And to be loved is to be honored, respected, admired.
拉斯·罗伯茨：所以，请引用我最喜欢的史密斯名言：“人自然地不仅渴望被爱，而且渴望变得可爱。”被爱就是被尊重、被尊重、被钦佩。
And, in this society, the beauty of your wife is the sign that you are a high achiever and that you are loved by people who look up to you and want to know what you're thinking and what you're doing.
而且，在这个社会中，你妻子的美丽标志着你是一个有成就的人，你被那些尊敬你、想知道你在想什么、在做什么的人所爱。
Agamemnon wants the best one.
阿伽门农想要最好的。
Ido Hevroni: And Agamemnon is a kind of an insecure leader because, again, he's not the king of all the others.
伊多·赫夫罗尼：阿伽门农是一位缺乏安全感的领导者，因为他不是所有其他人的国王。
He was just chosen to lead this battle.
他刚刚被选来领导这场战斗。
So, he's basically first among equals.
所以，他在同龄人中基本上是第一名。
And he's insecure, and he's very much afraid of the fact that he will give up on his very, very important prize or car or an office.
他没有安全感，他非常害怕自己会放弃他非常非常重要的奖品、汽车或办公室。
People would look at him and will see that Achilles or Odysseus or Ajax or all the other important commanders has better women in their tents than him, and they will disrespect him.
人们看着他，会发现阿喀琉斯、奥德修斯、埃阿斯或所有其他重要的指挥官在他们的帐篷里都有比他更好的女人，他们会不尊重他。
So, he's very much afraid of the way people are treating him, and this is very important when you are part of war.
所以，他非常害怕人们对待他的方式，当你参与战争时，这一点非常重要。
Russ Roberts: I just want to read, just because this is another incredible moment of economic thinking.
拉斯·罗伯茨：我只是想读书，只是因为这是经济思维的另一个令人难以置信的时刻。
We spent a lot of time in economics talking about rationality, and people acting in their own self-interest, and cost-benefit analysis.
我们在经济学上花了很多时间谈论理性、人们按照自己的利益行事以及成本效益分析。
And as I've gotten older, I'm a little more tolerant of imperfection.
随着年龄的增长，我对不完美的容忍度更高了。
So, almost halfway through the book, through the story of The Iliad , the Greeks are taking a terrible beating.
因此，在本书的一半部分，通过《伊利亚特》的故事，希腊人正在遭受可怕的打击。
Hector is leading the Trojans, and people are dying, and it looks like they might have to head home with total failure and humiliation.
赫克托领导着特洛伊人，人们正在死去，看起来他们可能不得不带着彻底的失败和羞辱回家。
So, Agamemnon finally decides he's got to get Achilles into the fight.
因此，阿伽门农最终决定让阿喀琉斯加入战斗。
Now it's Book 10, I think, so, or 9, and there's 24--
现在是第 10 本书，我想是，或者第 9 本书，有 24 本书——
Russ Roberts: So, we're pretty sure it's not going to work because then the story will be pretty much over.
拉斯·罗伯茨：所以，我们非常确定它不会起作用，因为那样故事就差不多结束了。
But, it's hard to imagine how it's not going to work.
但是，很难想象它怎么行不通。
So, I'm going to read what Agamemnon says and what he's going to offer Achilles to get him back into the fight--and appearingly, appears to offer a submissive offer.
所以，我要读一下阿伽门农所说的话，以及他将向阿喀琉斯提供什么，以使他重返战斗——而且看起来，似乎提供了一个顺从的提议。
Agamemnon concedes that he was wrong.
阿伽门农承认他错了。
He says the following:
他说：
And pausing here, I just want to mention: this is what he's going to give Achilles to get him to forgive him for stealing his woman and to get it back in the fight.
在这里暂停一下，我只想提一下：这就是他要给阿喀琉斯的东西，让他原谅他偷了他的女人，并在战斗中把它夺回来。
And it goes on and on.
这种情况一直持续下去。
At the end, he says he offers him special land with sheep and cattle.
最后，他说他为他提供了有羊和牛的特殊土地。
He says that he
他说他
So, you're reading this; you think: Well, this is the ultimate offer you cannot refuse.
所以，你正在读这篇文章；你想：好吧，这是你无法拒绝的终极报价。
It's everything you were--it's compensation.
这就是你的一切——这是补偿。
You get back what I took plus an unimaginable cornucopia of women, wealth, cattle, cities, his own daughter.
你拿回我夺走的东西，再加上难以想象的女人、财富、牲畜、城市和他自己的女儿的聚宝盆。
Ido Hevroni: Let's just make clear what happened in the beginning.
Ido Hevroni：让我们先弄清楚一开始发生了什么。
Again, after Agamemnon decided to take the prize, Briseis, from Achilles, then he swore that he won't come back to war, and he's going to ask his mother to ask Zeus to help the Trojans win the war in order for his friends come upon their knees to ask for his return.
再次，阿伽门农决定从阿喀琉斯那里夺取战利品布里塞伊斯后，他发誓自己不会再回到战争中，他要请他的母亲请求宙斯帮助特洛伊人赢得战争，以便他的朋友们跪下来请求他回来。
Right?
正确的？
He feels that they dishonor him.
他觉得他们羞辱了他。
Nobody is coming to help him against Agamemnon, so he feels alone.
没有人来帮助他对抗阿伽门农，所以他感到孤独。
All the promises, everything he believed in is broken right now.
所有的承诺，所有他所相信的一切，现在都被打破了。
That's a crisis for a person who were trained only for this moment--were trained to be the best, to be the best warrior in order to get the best honor.
对于一个只为这一刻而受训的人来说，这是一场危机——受训是为了成为最好的，成为最好的战士，以获得最好的荣誉。
And now, even though he was the best warrior, he doesn't get the best honor because politics is sometimes even stronger than war.
而现在，尽管他是最好的战士，但他并没有获得最好的荣誉，因为政治有时甚至比战争更强大。
But he's not a good politician.
但他不是一个好的政治家。
Right?
正确的？
He is just a warrior.
他只是一个战士。
He thought that would be enough.
他认为这就足够了。
So that's the plan of Zeus that was mentioned in the proem.
这就是序言中提到的宙斯的计划。
The plan of Zeus is, of course, to have the Trojans--but not because he thinks the Trojans should win the war, but in order to make the Achaeans come to ask Achilles and to compensate him like we see here.
当然，宙斯的计划是要拥有特洛伊人——但这并不是因为他认为特洛伊人应该赢得战争，而是为了让亚该亚人前来询问阿喀琉斯并补偿他，就像我们在这里看到的那样。
And, that happens at the night after the second battle day.
而且，这发生在第二个战斗日之后的晚上。
The whole book deals with four days of battle.
全书讲述了四天的战斗。
The first one at the end is pretty equal, both sides.
最后的第一个，双方都相当平等。
But the second one is very, very dramatic.
但第二个就非常非常戏剧化了。
It flips the powers.
它翻转了权力。
It's the first time where the Achaeans are sleeping behind the wall near the ships and the Trojans are parking outside, which they have never done for the last nine years.
这是第一次，亚该亚人睡在靠近船只的墙后，而特洛伊人则停在外面，这是他们在过去九年里从未做过的。
So, this is very dramatic.
所以，这是非常戏剧性的。
And, when Agamemnon sees that--and he understands that he disappoints the whole army, because he promised them to win the war.
而且，当阿伽门农看到这一点时，他明白他让全军失望，因为他承诺他们会赢得战争。
He led them to this war.
他带领他们参加了这场战争。
He promised them.
他答应了他们。
It's not enough that nine years have passed, and they are away from home, away from their wives and their property, etc. And, now he made Achilles retreat, and they are losing the war like they have never lost.
九年过去了，这还不够，他们离开了家，离开了妻子和财产等等。而且，现在他让阿喀琉斯撤退了，他们正在输掉这场战争，就像他们从未输过一样。
That, I think, explains how far he is willing to go in order to persuade Achilles to return.
我认为，这解释了他为了说服阿喀琉斯回归愿意付出多大的努力。
So, it's worth a lot.
所以，它非常值得。
It was much more than what it took from him.
这比他从他身上得到的要多得多。
And of course, this is a lesson for any manager or a leader: Sometimes you will have to compensate so much for a very small mistake you have done in the past, which is connected straight to your ego.
当然，这对任何经理或领导者来说都是一个教训：有时，你必须为过去犯下的一个很小的错误做出巨大的补偿，而这与你的自我意识直接相关。
So, this is very important.
所以，这一点非常重要。
Achilles says No. And that's, of course, a great surprise to everyone.
阿喀琉斯说不。当然，这对每个人来说都是一个巨大的惊喜。
Because that's exactly what he was asking for.
因为这正是他所要求的。
But he asked for it a week ago--something like a week ago--because some time passed between the days of battle.
但他在一周前就提出了要求——大约一周前——因为战斗之间已经过去了一段时间。
But, what we learn now when we see how he reacts to this offer--very, very generous offer--is that he has been changed.
但是，当我们看到他对这个非常非常慷慨的提议的反应时，我们了解到他已经改变了。
And, this is, again, something we know today, especially again in combat: When you're in a combat, you have to trust and believe the structure.
而且，这也是我们今天所知道的，尤其是在战斗中：当你在战斗中时，你必须信任并相信这个结构。
Right?
正确的？
You have a set of beliefs that drives you to be willing to risk your life for.
你有一套信念驱使你愿意为之冒生命危险。
But, sometimes, if you take a break out--a time out--and you're going out--and we know it from our soldiers, one of our students told me that while in Gaza, they could be there for weeks together and nobody would break down, but when they would go out for a vacation, even sometimes for a weekend, a few people would not return.
但是，有时，如果你休息一下——休息一下——然后你要出去——我们从我们的士兵那里知道这一点，我们的一名学生告诉我，在加沙的时候，他们可能会在一起呆上几个星期，没有人会崩溃，但是当他们出去度假时，甚至有时是一个周末，有些人不会回来。
Because, the moment you're going back and you're looking about it, you can say, 'For what?
因为，当你回去思考它的那一刻，你可以说，‘为了什么？
Why should I do it?'
我为什么要这么做？
And that's a moment which is very, very important for us as readers and both for the society within the book.
这对于我们作为读者以及书中的社会来说都非常非常重要。
Because, Achilles, for the first time, is looking from the outside about the basic values that motivates his society, and he says, 'Well, there are alternatives.
因为，阿喀琉斯第一次从外部审视激励他的社会的基本价值观，他说，‘好吧，还有其他选择。
We don't have just to be here involved in war, killed or kill, and get the honor.
我们不只是为了在这里卷入战争，被杀或杀戮，并获得荣誉。
We might have a different life.
也许我们会有不一样的人生
We might go,' I tell you usually, 'to Australia and live in a caravan where nobody will ever know about us.
我通常告诉你，我们可能会去澳大利亚，住在一个没有人知道我们的大篷车里。
We won't have honor.
我们将没有荣誉。
We won't have huge property.
我们不会拥有大量财产。
But we can live in peace.' And, that's--you know, that's amazing.
但我们可以和平相处。而且，那是——你知道，这太棒了。
That's a huge surprise for all the others or for the last 10 years we're totally invested in war.
这对于所有其他人或过去十年我们完全投入战争的人来说是一个巨大的惊喜。
Russ Roberts: So, one of our students told me that when he came out of Gaza and he walked into Tel Aviv, and he sees people sitting, drinking coffee, having wine, and he's thinking, 'What the hell are they doing?' I mean: 'What is this life?' It's so simple.
拉斯·罗伯茨：我们的一位学生告诉我，当他从加沙出来，走进特拉维夫时，他看到人们坐着，喝着咖啡，喝着酒，他在想，“他们到底在做什么？”我的意思是：“这是什么生活？”就是这么简单。
It's so different.
真是太不一样了。
It's so alien to him.
这对他来说太陌生了。
He couldn't relate to it.
他对此无法理解。
He said, 'I couldn't process it.'
他说：“我无法处理它。”
And then, the way he processed it was, he said, 'Well, that's why I'm fighting, so people can sit and drink coffee and have conversations and connect with each other.'
然后，他的处理方式是，他说，“好吧，这就是我战斗的原因，这样人们就可以坐下来喝咖啡，进行对话并相互联系。”
But, the gap between the warrior's life and the home front is--it can't be thought about.
但是，战士的生活和大后方的差距是——无法想象的。
And when it is thought about it, all of a sudden you're thinking, 'What am I doing?
当你想到这一点时，你会突然想，‘我在做什么？
This is too painful.
这太痛苦了。
I'm doing things and seeing things I don't want to do.' Even at the same time that they're proud to serve their country and they want to be next to their comrades and to their brothers in arms.
我正在做一些我不想做的事情，也看到一些我不想做的事情。”即使他们为自己的国家服务而感到自豪，并且希望与战友和战友并肩作战。
But war is insane.
但战争是疯狂的。
There's no way around it.
没有办法解决这个问题。
So, here's the thing: Achilles comes across--you just made a nice defense of him.
所以，事情是这样的：阿喀琉斯遇到了——你刚刚为他做了很好的辩护。
I like that.
我喜欢这样。
But, to me, as the first-time reader, he seems a bit petty.
但对我来说，作为第一次阅读的人，他显得有点小气。
He seems a bit self-absorbed.
他似乎有点自我陶醉。
Do you respect him?
你尊重他吗？
Do you like him?
你喜欢他吗？
Who do you like in this book, if anyone?
如果有的话，你喜欢这本书中的谁？
We're watching human beings under--as you say, they're enmeshed in a system, a war machine that is unforgiving and chews them up.
我们正在观察人类——正如你所说，他们陷入了一个系统，一个无情的战争机器，并吞噬着他们。
And, this one extraordinary warrior gets to step out and sit in his tent for a while and think about it a little bit for the first time and realize, the way you've at least portrayed it.
而且，这位非凡的战士走出去，在他的帐篷里坐了一会儿，第一次思考了一下，并意识到，至少就像你所描述的那样。
But, he doesn't come across that admirably.
但是，他并没有遇到令人钦佩的事情。
Is there anybody in this book you respect or that we respect as readers or you think Homer wants us to respect?
这本书里有没有你尊敬的人，或者我们作为读者尊敬的人，或者你认为荷马希望我们尊敬的人？
Ido Hevroni: First of all, a great work of art is not judgmental.
Ido Hevroni：首先，伟大的艺术作品不是评判性的。
It gives you a lot of material to be the judge yourself.
它为您提供了很多材料来让您自己担任法官。
This is why it is a great training for a moral judgment.
这就是为什么它是一种很好的道德判断训练。
We can watch, we can understand the characters.
我们可以观看，我们可以理解角色。
More than that, what's beautiful with Homer and polytheism, it's not split into darkness and lightness--and light.
更重要的是，荷马和多神论的美妙之处在于，它没有分裂成黑暗和光明——以及光明。
It's not that the Trojans are all bad and the Greeks are all good.
并不是说特洛伊人都是坏人，希腊人都是好人。
We see now Achilles, which is not so admirable.
我们现在看到的阿喀琉斯，并不那么令人钦佩。
For many years before the war, our students hated Achilles, I think, more than any other character in the book.
我认为，在战前的许多年里，我们的学生比书中的任何其他角色都更讨厌阿喀琉斯。
But since the beginning of the war, they think about it differently because the breakdown of the soldier--and, again, his commander betrayed him.
但自从战争开始以来，他们的想法就不同了，因为士兵的崩溃——以及他的指挥官再次背叛了他。
His commander, the person he should have walked with closed eyes behind his back, knowing that he can fully trust this person to bring him into war and to take him out of war--this person betrayed his trust.
他的指挥官，这个他应该闭着眼睛走在背后的人，知道他可以完全信任这个人，让他带入战争，带他退出战争——这个人背叛了他的信任。
This person broke down all the rules.
这个人打破了所有的规则。
Everything he believed, every respect he had was lost because of the ego of Agamemnon.
他所相信的一切，他所拥有的一切尊重，都因为阿伽门农的自我而消失了。
So you can understand him.
这样你就可以理解他了。
I don't say identify.
我不说识别。
I don't say admire him.
我不说欣赏他。
But I think we can understand him.
但我想我们可以理解他。
I learned a lot about it, and I learned to understand Achilles better from the book that was written by Jonathan Shay.
我学到了很多关于它的知识，并且从乔纳森·谢伊写的书中我学会了更好地理解阿喀琉斯。
Jonathan Shay--he wrote a book called Achilles in Vietnam .
乔纳森·谢伊（Jonathan Shay）——他写了一本名为《越南的阿喀琉斯》的书。
He's a psychiatrist who worked for many years with veterans of Vietnam, and he reads The Iliad through the perspective of the soldier.
他是一名精神病学家，曾与越南退伍军人一起工作多年，他从士兵的角度阅读《伊利亚特》。
And, that's very important to say because, again, one can approach The Iliad and The Odyssey as classics, right?
而且，这一点非常重要，因为人们可以将《伊利亚特》和《奥德赛》视为经典，对吧？
As something which is interesting but very foreign from us.
这是一件很有趣但对我们来说很陌生的事情。
But, Jonathan Shay and the real experience I had here taught me to treat it as real human beings, like human beings like me and you and the situations, to think about them not as classical, operatic--even though sometimes it is very operatic the way it is written--but as real actual life situations.
但是，乔纳森·谢伊和我在这里的真实经历教会我把它当作真正的人来对待，就像像我和你这样的人以及情境一样，不要把它们当作古典的、歌剧的——尽管有时它的写作方式非常歌剧——而是把它们当作真实的现实生活情境。
And, Achilles is losing every trust he had.
而且，阿喀琉斯正在失去他所拥有的一切信任。
He's young.
他很年轻。
He's young; he's very good, he's young, and he's betrayed.
他还年轻；他很好，他很年轻，但他被背叛了。
His trust is broken.
他的信任被打破了。
So, I think we can understand him.
所以，我想我们可以理解他。
I don't think we can identify.
我认为我们无法识别。
I wish I would act in a different way if I were instead of him in his place, but I think we can understand him.
如果我代替他代替他，我希望我会以不同的方式行事，但我认为我们可以理解他。
Russ Roberts: But, are you arguing that Achilles' refusal of Agamemnon's incredibly generous offer--which I took in my quick first-time reading to be ego and pride--you think it's more than that?
拉斯·罗伯茨：但是，你是否认为阿喀琉斯拒绝了阿伽门农令人难以置信的慷慨提议——我在第一次快速阅读时认为这是自我和骄傲——你认为事情还不止于此吗？
Ido Hevroni: Again, I think he lost the trust in the cause, right?
伊多·赫夫罗尼：我认为他再次失去了对事业的信任，对吧？
The morale of the soldiers is falling down when they lose trust.
当士兵失去信任时，士气就会下降。
And, we see it in every war: Usually, it starts well.
而且，我们在每场战争中都能看到这一点：通常情况下，开局良好。
The soldiers are enthusiastic.
战士们热情高涨。
They truly believe.
他们确实相信。
They follow their commanders.
他们跟随他们的指挥官。
But, with time passing, with being in the trenches, in the mud, in Vietnam, and having more friends killed or wounded, you're losing it.
但是，随着时间的流逝，随着你身处战壕、泥泞、越南，以及更多的朋友被杀或受伤，你正在失去它。
You're losing it, you're losing trust.
你正在失去它，你正在失去信任。
And, it happened in Vietnam.
而且，它发生在越南。
Right?
正确的？
Most of the soldiers--and the public in America--lost trust in the leadership.
大多数士兵以及美国公众对领导层失去了信任。
And, when you're losing trust in your leadership, it's very, very hard to fight for it and to be willing to sacrifice your life.
而且，当你对自己的领导力失去信任时，就很难为之奋斗并愿意牺牲自己的生命。
Russ Roberts: Well then let's talk, maybe in closing, about Hector.
拉斯·罗伯茨（Russ Roberts）：那么我们来谈谈赫克托（Hector）吧。
So, Hector is the superhero on the Trojan side.
所以，赫克托是特洛伊一方的超级英雄。
He's also Paris's half brother.
他也是帕里斯的同父异母的兄弟。
They share a father, which is the King of Troy, Priam.
他们有一个共同的父亲，那就是特洛伊国王普里阿摩斯。
And he despises Paris, Hector does.
他鄙视巴黎，赫克托也是如此。
He is constantly blaming him for the war because he stole Helen from Menelaus.
他不断地将战争归咎于他，因为他从墨涅拉俄斯那里偷走了海伦。
And worse than that, he is critiquing his courage, his honor.
更糟糕的是，他正在批评他的勇气和荣誉。
He treats him with disdain and says so.
他以不屑的态度对待他，并如此说道。
And Paris often agrees with him, which is also, incredibly, one aspect of how people respond to that kind of criticism.
帕里斯经常同意他的观点，令人难以置信的是，这也是人们回应此类批评的一个方面。
But Hector sees his duty through.
但赫克托始终履行自己的职责。
Talk about Hector.
谈论赫克托。
Ido Hevroni: Hector is probably the most tragic and beloved character of the book.
伊多·赫夫罗尼：赫克托可能是这本书中最悲惨、最受喜爱的角色。
And again, this is the genius of Homer: Even though Homer is on the side of the Greeks, he can describe a wonderful character on the other side, which is not all darkness.
再说一次，这就是荷马的天才之处：尽管荷马站在希腊人一边，但他却能描绘出另一边的精彩人物，而另一边并不全是黑暗。
And, it might be that the tragic aspect of Hector is exactly the source of his power.
而且，赫克托的悲剧性或许正是他力量的源泉。
His power--his source of power--is his loyalty.
他的力量——他力量的源泉——就是他的忠诚。
He is loyal.
他很忠诚。
He's loyal to the laws of the city.
他忠于城市的法律。
He's loyal to his father, the King, and he will follow the orders of his father even though he does not believe in the cause of the war.
他忠于他的父亲国王，即使他不相信战争的原因，他也会听从父亲的命令。
He would give Helen back because he thinks that's not right to do.
他会把海伦还给他，因为他认为这样做是不对的。
But, his father--which is a weak leader: he's old, he's weak--and he's following Paris, his father.
但是，他的父亲——一个软弱的领导者：他又老又弱——他正在追随他父亲帕里斯。
It's a kind of maybe Jacob and Joseph, right?
这可能是雅各布和约瑟夫，对吧？
The beautiful youngest son who moves his father and he causes his father to lose his understanding about the situation, the whole situation, and his loyalty to the others.
美丽的小儿子感动了他的父亲，他让他的父亲失去了对局势的了解，对整个局势的了解，以及对他人的忠诚。
So, Priam is following Paris, and Paris is following--let's not mention here what exactly he's following, but it's not his brain.
所以，普里阿摩斯在追随帕里斯，帕里斯也在追随——这里我们不提他到底在追随什么，但这不是他的大脑。
And, Hector is angry, and he's critical about it.
而且，赫克托很生气，他对此持批评态度。
But he will continue fulfilling his duty.
但他将继续履行自己的职责。
He will never break.
他永远不会崩溃。
He will fulfill his duty until his tragic end.
他将履行自己的职责，直到悲惨的结局。
Russ Roberts: And, there's an extraordinary scene--you've written about it, and we've talked about it--where he's on a mission, takes him back to Troy away from the battle for a bit, and he takes the opportunity to visit his wife, Andromache, and his infant son.
拉斯·罗伯茨：而且，有一个非同寻常的场景——你已经写过，我们也讨论过——他正在执行一项任务，带他回到特洛伊，远离战场一段时间，他借此机会拜访了他的妻子安德洛玛克和他还在襁褓中的儿子。
And his wife says, basically, 'Don't go back.
他的妻子基本上说，‘不要回去。
Stay here.
留在这里。
There's no reason to go back.
没有理由回去。
You're going to be killed.
你会被杀的。
What's the point that you're going to be killed?' And of course, she's right.
你要被杀有什么意义？当然，她是对的。
He's going to be killed.
他会被杀的。
So, why does Hector go back?
那么，赫克托为什么要回去呢？
Ido Hevroni: He answers her.
Ido Hevroni：他回答了她。
He starts with saying, 'I identify with you.
他首先说：‘我认同你。
I totally understand you.
我完全理解你。
I think like you,' which is again amazing because she gives him strategic options where to stand in order to be more protected, where he can see and command the army without being in danger.
我想像你一样，”这又是令人惊奇的，因为她给了他战略选择，站在哪里才能受到更多保护，在那里他可以看到和指挥军队而不会处于危险之中。
Again, that's not for a woman to say; but he accepts it.
再说一遍，这不是女人该说的；这是女人该说的。但他接受了。
He does not disagree with her.
他并不反对她的观点。
But he says, 'I could not look into the eyes of the other women, which I send their husbands and sons and fathers to war.
但他说：“我无法直视其他妇女的眼睛，因为我把她们的丈夫、儿子和父亲送上了战场。”
And, I am loyal.
而且，我很忠诚。
I was raised to take this position.
我是被提拔来担任这个职位的。
This is my position.
这就是我的立场。
I am the commander in chief of the army.
我是军队的总司令。
I have my duties.
我有我的职责。
I am loyal to the laws of the city even in the cost of losing my life and losing you and my son, Astyanax,' which is present in this amazing scene.
我忠于城市的法律，即使以失去我的生命和失去你和我的儿子阿斯提亚纳克斯为代价，”这出现在这个惊人的场景中。
Russ Roberts: It's a fascinating reason.
拉斯·罗伯茨：这是一个令人着迷的原因。
He doesn't say the standard brothers-in-arms argument: 'I can't let my comrades down.' He says, 'I couldn't respect my--'--the way I take it, tell me if you agree, you know better than I do--'I couldn't respect myself.
他没有说出标准的战友论点：“我不能让我的战友们失望。”他说，“我无法尊重我的——”——我的看法，如果你同意的话请告诉我，你比我更清楚——“我无法尊重自己。”
If I walked through this town and saw the wives of the men that I abandoned to their death and took the easy way out.'
如果我走过这个小镇，看到那些被我遗弃至死并采取简单出路的男人的妻子。
Ido Hevroni: Right.
伊多·赫夫罗尼：对。
And, the continuation of this amazing scene when he speaks with her, he's fully armored, especially with the helmet, which covers half of his face.
而且，当他与她说话时，这一令人惊奇的场景继续发生，他全副武装，尤其是头盔，遮住了他的半张脸。
And then he speaks like he should speak.
然后他就像他应该说话一样说话。
But then he moves to say goodbye to his son, his little son.
但随后他向他的儿子、他的小儿子告别。
And, the boy is, of course, afraid of this appearance.
而且，男孩当然害怕这个样子。
Again, a story I heard again and again from our students when they would come--return home, right?--and would go to visit their young niece or nephew.
同样，当我们的学生回来（回家，对吧？）并去看望他们年幼的侄女或侄子时，我一次又一次地从他们那里听到了这个故事。
They would, you know, run away from this person who now looks like a stranger after not being at home for a month or two months.
你知道，他们会在一两个月不在家后逃离这个现在看起来像陌生人的人。
And, the face is a little bit changed by the war and the look of the battle dress.
而且，由于战争和战服的样子，脸型也发生了一些变化。
Then he removes the helmet, and he smiles at the baby, and then the baby smiles back, and then he speaks in another, in different way.
然后他摘下头盔，对婴儿微笑，然后婴儿也回以微笑，然后他用另一种不同的方式说话。
He speaks in a more hopeful way.
他说话的语气更加充满希望。
And that's, again, a very, very deep moment, because Homer can depict this very complicated situation where Hector is torn from within.
这又是一个非常非常深刻的时刻，因为荷马可以描绘出赫克托从内部被撕裂的这种非常复杂的情况。
He decides--he knows exactly what to do.
他决定——他清楚地知道该怎么做。
But that doesn't say that he's not a robot.
但这并不意味着他不是机器人。
He's not a blind follower of the laws.
他不是法律的盲目追随者。
He decides to follow the laws, because he believes that this is the right way to do it.
他决定遵守法律，因为他相信这是正确的做法。
He's a great father.
他是一位伟大的父亲。
He is a man of his family.
他是他家人的男人。
He loves his family.
他爱他的家人。
He loves civilian life.
他热爱平民生活。
He would not choose to be a soldier.
他不会选择当兵。
He was raised to be a soldier in order to protect the city.
为了保卫城市，他被培养成一名士兵。
And, now, when duty calls, he will go, even though he knows the price he pays for it.
现在，当职责需要时，他会去，尽管他知道为此付出的代价。
But, Homer have this ability to picture this in a very complicated and very touching-to-the-heart in a way.
但是，荷马有能力以一种非常复杂且非常感人的方式来描绘这一点。
Russ Roberts: I hope everyone will join us in reading this book, and we'll have some additional episodes down the road with some different guests with their take.
拉斯·罗伯茨：我希望每个人都能和我们一起阅读这本书，我们将在未来推出一些额外的剧集，由一些不同的嘉宾分享他们的看法。
My guest today has been Ido Hevroni.
今天我的客人是伊多·赫夫罗尼。
Ido, thanks for being part of EconTalk.
Ido，感谢您参与 EconTalk。