dwayne betts on the iliad

What happens when a poet who survived prison sits down with the world's oldest war story--and reads it in three sleepless, wandering days?

当一位从监狱中幸存下来的诗人坐下来阅读世界上最古老的战争故事，并在三天不眠、徘徊的日子里阅读它时，会发生什么？

In this second episode of the EconTalk Book Club on the Iliad , Dwayne Betts and EconTalk host Russ Roberts trade their impressions of the Iliad , discovering it's less about war than about fathers, friendship, and the stubborn dignity people find inside fates they can't escape.

在 EconTalk 读书俱乐部关于《伊利亚特》的第二集中，德韦恩·贝茨 (Dwayne Betts) 和 EconTalk 主持人拉斯·罗伯茨 (Russ Roberts) 交换了他们对《伊利亚特》的印象，发现这本书与其说是关于战争，不如说是关于父亲、友谊，以及人们在无法逃脱的命运中发现的顽固的尊严。

Betts connects Achilles's rage and grief to his own experience of incarceration and depression, while Roberts marvels at Homer's cinematic style and the strange tenderness between enemies.

贝茨将阿基里斯的愤怒和悲伤与他自己的监禁和抑郁经历联系起来，而罗伯茨则惊叹于荷马的电影风格和敌人之间奇怪的温柔。

Together they unpack the shield of Achilles, the ransom of Hector's body, and how an ancient poem about war still cracks readers open today.

他们一起打开了阿喀琉斯之盾、赫克托尔尸体的赎金，以及一首关于战争的古诗如何让今天的读者大开眼界。

It's a conversation about reading as communion--and how a 2,800-year-old story became, unexpectedly, a way of connecting to each other.

这是一场关于阅读作为交流的对话，以及一个拥有 2800 年历史的故事如何意外地成为一种相互联系的方式。

For anyone interested in this topic, I highly recommend Jonathan Shay’s two books that are related to the Iliad.

对于任何对此主题感兴趣的人，我强烈推荐乔纳森·谢伊（Jonathan Shay）的两本与《伊利亚特》相关的书。

Achilles in Vietnam: Combat Trauma and the Undoing of Character Odysseus in America: Combat Trauma and the Trials of Homecoming These compare and contrast the experience of the American soldier in Vietnam and other wars with The Iliad and explore what the combat veteran must overcome to return to and flourish in civilian life.

越南的阿喀琉斯：战斗创伤和性格的毁灭 奥德修斯在美国：战斗创伤和归国的考验 这些将美国士兵在越南和其他战争中的经历与《伊利亚特》进行了比较和对比，并探讨了退伍军人必须克服的困难才能重返平民生活并在平民生活中蓬勃发展。

I had never read the Iliad previously, so I eventually listened to the Robert Fagles book and I would not have understood it as well if I had not read Shay’s books.

我以前从未读过《伊利亚特》，所以我最终听了罗伯特·法格尔斯的书，如果我没有读过谢伊的书，我也不会理解它。

I wrote this first comment before listening and here are some additional comments after listening.

我在听之前写了第一条评论，这里是听后的一些补充评论。

First, this was a great episode and definitely a candidate for my best of the year vote.

首先，这是一部很棒的剧集，绝对是我年度最佳剧集的候选者。

“He’s offended because Agamemnon wants to take away–he takes away–a woman he won in battle, as a piece of triumph”

“他被冒犯了，因为阿伽门农想要带走——他带走了——他在战斗中赢得的一个女人，作为胜利的一部分”

This is no minor infraction of the rules.

这并不是轻微的违反规则的行为。

This is equivalent to stealing a man’s wife.

这相当于抢了男人的老婆。

Such a fundamental breach is what causes the break between soldiers and their generals, and that is repeated throughout history, but modern wars have shown this lack of honor or “themis”.

这种根本性的破坏导致了士兵和将军之间的决裂，这种情况在历史上不断重复，但现代战争已经表明了这种荣誉或“themis”的缺乏。

“Exemplifying this dissonance are Vietnam veterans with PTSD, whose experiences author Jonathan Shay relates to those of the Greek soldiers in the Iliad .

“患有创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）的越战老兵就是这种不和谐的例证，作者乔纳森·谢伊（Jonathan Shay）将他们的经历与《伊利亚特》中希腊士兵的经历联系起来。

In both cases, the reflective commitment to “what’s right”, or themis , is betrayed by some commanding officers.”

在这两种情况下，一些指挥官都背叛了对“正确的事情”或“themis”的反思性承诺。

And David Hackworth’s lengthy tome About Face has many similar lessons about cases where generals seeking their moment in the sun before politicians abandon principle and truth which betrays the soldiers they lead consequently resulting in their death.

大卫·哈克沃斯（David Hackworth）的长篇巨著《关于面子》（About Face）也有许多类似的教训，讲述了将军们在政客们放弃原则和真理之前寻求阳光下的时刻，而这些原则和真理背叛了他们所领导的士兵，最终导致了他们的死亡。

In the part about Lycaon, what Jonathan Shays (maybe he should be an Econtalk guest) points out is that this is when Achilles has gone “berserk”.

在关于利卡翁的部分，乔纳森·谢斯（也许他应该是Econtalk的嘉宾）指出，这就是阿喀琉斯“发疯”的时候。

This is the term for when combat soldiers have completely lost the moral compass and do not respect the previously observed rules of war.

这是当战斗士兵完全失去道德指南针并且不尊重先前遵守的战争规则时的术语。

This is what happened in My Lai, Sabra and Shatila, and other massacres.

这就是美莱村、萨布拉和沙蒂拉以及其他大屠杀所发生的情况。

And when Achilles does say “Come, friend, you too must die.

当阿喀琉斯说：“来吧，朋友，你也必须死。

Why moan about it so?” He is somewhat returning to that martial code that simply acknowledges that it is part of the contract that was implicitly accepted when entering into the conflict.

为什么要这样抱怨呢？”他在某种程度上回归了军事法规，该法规只是承认它是进入冲突时隐含接受的合同的一部分。

The Dwayne-Russ friendship is wonderful.

德维恩和拉斯的友谊非常美好。

Both of Dwayne’s book club episodes have been thoroughly enjoyable and enlightening.

德韦恩的读书俱乐部的两集都非常令人愉快且富有启发性。

This type of open, one-on-one discussion on a great book or books is great.

这种针对一本或多本书的开放式、一对一的讨论非常棒。

Would love to have more of these.

我很想拥有更多这些。

As much as I still dislike The Iliad (Having spent more than 40 years trying to get through it and, thanks to Russ and this podcast, finally starting Book 24.

尽管我仍然不喜欢《伊利亚特》（我花了 40 多年的时间试图读完它，感谢 Russ 和这个播客，终于开始了第 24 卷。

BTW, I don’t know how Dwayne Betts got through it in three days; I can’t stand to spend more than about 15-30 minutes with it at a sitting.), I really appreciate hearing the perspective of people who do like it.

顺便说一句，我不知道德韦恩·贝茨是如何在三天内度过的；我无法忍受一次花超过 15-30 分钟的时间来使用它。），我真的很高兴听到喜欢它的人的观点。

I have also learned that some of the things I dislike so much are some of the things its fans like best.

我还了解到，我非常不喜欢的一些东西正是其粉丝最喜欢的一些东西。

Just to give one example, I will be reading along, thinking, “If I have to read ‘wine dark sea,’ ‘swift Achilles,’ or ‘winged words’ one more time, I’m going to through this thing out the window, preferably of a car going down the interstate at 70 mph.

举个例子，我会边读边想，“如果我必须再读一遍‘酒黑海’、‘敏捷的阿喀琉斯’或‘有翅膀的词’，我会穿过窗外的这个东西，最好是一辆汽车以每小时 70 英里的速度沿着州际公路行驶。

But that’s just me, and even as much as I dislike it, I don’t regret reading it.

但这只是我，即使我不喜欢它，我也不后悔读它。

Now, I do not have to lie on my deathbed thinking, “I wish I could have finished The Iliad.” And that’s something.

现在，我不必躺在临终的床上想着“我希望我能读完《伊利亚特》”。就是这样。

But to get to my point in a previous post about the real tragedy of this story being that we have not learned its lesson after 3,000 years of telling and retelling it:

但要谈谈我在上一篇文章中关于这个故事的真正悲剧的观点，即我们在 3000 年的讲述和重述之后还没有吸取教训：

If you want to see mighty warriors called by their gods to clash on what they believe to be a field of honor, follow the news from South Sudan.

如果您想看到强大的战士被他们的神召唤，在他们认为是荣誉的领域上进行冲突，请关注南苏丹的新闻。

If you want to see the corpse of Patroclus, look to the bodies of the 1300 or so victims of Hamas on October 7, and if you want to see Achilles using his superior power to wreak terrible vengeance on the killer of his friend, look to the Israeli aircraft dropping 2000 pound bombs on Gaza to root out Hamas.

如果你想看到帕特罗克洛斯的尸体，就看看10月7日哈马斯大约1300名受害者的尸体；如果你想看到阿喀琉斯利用他的超强力量对杀害他朋友的凶手进行可怕的复仇，就看看以色列飞机向加沙投掷2000磅炸弹以铲除哈马斯。

If you want to see Agamemnon leading his countrymen to slaughter on a quest to regain what was taken from him, look to Vladimir Putin’s attempt to reclaim Ukraine for Russia.

如果你想看到阿伽门农带领他的同胞进行屠杀，以夺回从他身上夺走的东西，看看弗拉基米尔·普京为俄罗斯夺回乌克兰的尝试。

Finally, maybe Homer just isn’t for me.

最后，也许荷马不适合我。

I saw Nolan’s The Odyssey tonight.

今晚我看了诺兰的《奥德赛》。

Like reading The Iliad, it had its moments, but was mostly disappointing.

就像读《伊利亚特》一样，它也有精彩的时刻，但大多令人失望。

But again, thank you, Russ for this series.

但再次感谢 Russ 的这个系列。

I may not like Homer, but obviously, he moved me.

我可能不喜欢荷马，但显然，他感动了我。

I finally read the Odyssey a couple of years ago and wondered if I’d read the Iliad unless I live long enough to have my brain enhanced.

几年前，我终于读到了《奥德赛》，并想知道除非我活得足够长，大脑得到增强，否则我是否会读《伊利亚特》。

I recently listened to Will Durant’s short biography on Herbert Spencer and grinned when I heard Spencer’s experience with the Iliad :

我最近听了威尔·杜兰特关于赫伯特·斯宾塞的简短传记，当我听到斯宾塞的《伊利亚特》经历时，我笑了：

“Some twenty years ago I took up a translation of the Iliad , intending to read it through.Though familiar from boyhood with many passages, I had never done this.

“大约二十年前，我拿起《伊利亚特》的译本，打算通读一遍。尽管我从小就熟悉很多段落，但我从未这样做过。

After reading some six books, I found what a task it would be to continue, and felt that I would rather pay a considerable sum than read it to the end.

读了大约六本书后，我发现继续下去是多么艰巨的任务，觉得宁愿花一大笔钱也不愿读到底。

The perpetual recurrence of battles, wounds, killings, and speeches, with but little variation, became wearisome beyond endurance.

战争、创伤、杀戮和言论不断地发生，几乎没有什么变化，变得令人厌倦，难以忍受。

I abandoned the undertaking.”

我放弃了这个事业。”

Previously, I also shared the negative views of this work expressed in the comments.

此前，我也分享过评论中表达的对这部作品的负面看法。

I picked up a copy a few years ago when the Emily Wilson translation first came out, got though about 18 chapters and never finished it.

几年前，当艾米丽·威尔逊 (Emily Wilson) 的译本首次出版时，我买了一本，读了大约 18 章，但从未完成。

All I remember thinking from that time was that the story was reasonably interesting, but just so much death.

我记得当时的想法就是这个故事相当有趣，但死亡太多了。

Thanks to this Econtalk series I have taken up the book again, and I am absolutely loving it.

感谢这个 Econtalk 系列，我再次拿起这本书，我非常喜欢它。

I think maybe I needed that first reading to get the gist and flavor of the work in my head, because now I find myself very seriously engaged with the characters.

我想也许我需要第一次阅读才能在我的脑海中了解这部作品的要点和风味，因为现在我发现自己非常认真地融入了这些角色。

They all just feel much deeper and more interesting with this reading.

他们都觉得阅读这篇文章更深刻、更有趣。

I am appreciating the discussions here on the motives of the characters.

我很欣赏这里关于人物动机的讨论。

They are all far more relatable than I had remembered them being.

它们都比我记忆中的更具有关联性。

The way the Gods are like parents stepping into a children’s ball game to re-set order or make sure one team doesn’t beat the other too bad in particular is very relatable.

诸神就像父母走进儿童球赛来重新设定秩序或确保一支球队不会把另一支球队打得太惨一样，这种方式非常令人有共鸣。

I have never fought in war, have rarely fought at all in my life, and cannot relate to the desire for revenge, for blood, but it’s obviously a part of the human condition and I like that this book give some insight into what that raw, violent, emotion is all about.

我从来没有参加过战争，一生中很少打仗，也无法体会到复仇、流血的渴望，但这显然是人类状况的一部分，我喜欢这本书让我深入了解这种原始、暴力的情感到底是什么。

Another hugely insightful and powerful episode.

又一个极具洞察力和强大的情节。

Thank you RR and RDB.

谢谢 RR 和 RDB。

I’m late to the book club episodes but thoroughly enjoyed this conversation between you two.

我参加读书俱乐部活动迟到了，但非常喜欢你们两个之间的这次谈话。

Now, my father (75) wants to take me and my brother the new Illiad movie.

现在，我的父亲（75 岁）想带我和我的兄弟去看新的《伊利亚特》电影。

I think I’ll watch the film first lest I judge it too harshly from the poem.

我想我会先看这部电影，以免我根据这首诗对它做出过于严厉的评价。

And it sounds like spoilers don’t spoil anything here.

听起来剧透不会破坏这里的任何东西。

Additional ideas and people mentioned in this podcast episode:

本播客节目中提到的其他想法和人物：

A few more readings and background resources:

更多阅读材料和背景资源：

More related EconTalk podcast episodes, by Category:

更多相关的 EconTalk 播客剧集，按类别：

* As an Amazon Associate, Econlib earns from qualifying purchases.

* 作为亚马逊合作伙伴，Econlib 通过符合条件的购买赚取收入。

Russ Roberts: Today is June 23rd, 2026.

拉斯·罗伯茨：今天是 2026 年 6 月 23 日。

This is the second installment of the EconTalk Book Club on The Iliad by Homer.

这是 EconTalk 读书俱乐部关于荷马《伊利亚特》的第二期。

My guest today is poet and author Dwayne Betts.

今天我的客人是诗人兼作家德韦恩·贝茨。

This is Dwayne's fifth appearance on the program.

这是德韦恩第五次出现在该节目中。

He was last here in June of 2024 talking about Martin Luther King's Letter from Birmingham Jail.

他最后一次来这里是在 2024 年 6 月，谈论马丁·路德·金在伯明翰监狱写的信。

Dwayne Betts: It is such a pleasure.

德韦恩·贝茨：真是太高兴了。

Although I got to say that I recognize how unreachable Mike Munger's record now is for me.

尽管我不得不说，我认识到迈克·芒格的纪录现在对我来说是多么遥不可及。

Dwayne Betts: Although, hey, Harper [Bryce Harper, Philadelphia Phillies--Econlib Ed.], just hit for the cycle.

德韦恩·贝茨：虽然，嘿，哈珀（布莱斯·哈珀，费城费城人队 - Econlib 编辑）刚刚进入周期。

So, maybe I could hit for the cycle.

所以，也许我可以继续循环。

We need a version of the cycle for EconTalk.

我们需要一个用于 EconTalk 的循环版本。

Russ Roberts: Yeah.

拉斯·罗伯茨：是的。

Well, you could pass him on some limited time zone.

好吧，你可以在某些有限的时区超过他。

Like, the June 2026 record of most appearances: it's a tie.

就像 2026 年 6 月出场次数最多的记录一样：平局。

Dwayne Betts has a one and Mike Munger has none.

德韦恩·贝茨（Dwayne Betts）有一个，而迈克·芒格（Mike Munger）却没有。

Dwayne Betts: And, I have a New York Times article out that's worth talking about, too.

德韦恩·贝茨：而且，我发表了一篇《纽约时报》的文章，也值得讨论。

But, right now, we get to talk about The Iliad .

但是，现在我们要谈谈《伊利亚特》。

Russ Roberts: Okay.

拉斯·罗伯茨：好的。

So, this happened, this conversation--the genesis of it is that you heard or I mentioned to you in an email that I was reading The Iliad for the first time and that we were going to do a book club on it, and you said you wanted to read it as well.

所以，这件事发生了，这次谈话——它的起源是你听到或者我在一封电子邮件中向你提到我正在第一次阅读《伊利亚特》并且我们将举办一个关于它的读书俱乐部，而你说你也想读它。

So, you, like me, have just read this epic poem for the first time.

所以，你和我一样，也是第一次读到这首史诗。

And let's start with your general impressions.

让我们从您的总体印象开始。

Dwayne Betts: I should say that I just wanted to experience reading a book that I was deeply familiar with, with somebody else.

德韦恩·贝茨：我应该说，我只是想体验与其他人一起阅读一本我非常熟悉的书。

And, I wanted to experience doing it.

而且，我想体验一下这样做。

When you said you hadn't read it, it felt like I was compelled to ask to read it with you, because I also hadn't read it.

当你说你没读过的时候，我感觉我不得不要求和你一起读，因为我也没有读过。

But, it was a bad decision from the start, Russ.

但是，这从一开始就是一个错误的决定，拉斯。

Dwayne Betts: Because this is--I think we started talking at the beginning of June?

Dwayne Betts：因为这是——我想我们从六月初就开始讨论了？

Dwayne Betts: I had a documentary premiere at Tribeca on June 8th.

Dwayne Betts：6 月 8 日我在翠贝卡举办了一部纪录片首映式。

And then, I had my first solo art exhibit on June 19th.

然后，我在6月19日举办了我的第一次个展。

I didn't start reading this actively until June 20th.

直到 6 月 20 日我才开始积极阅读这篇文章。

Over the past three days--

这三天里——

Russ Roberts: Three days ago, three days ago--

拉斯·罗伯茨：三天前，三天前——

Dwayne Betts: I was on Chapter--I was on Book Two.

德韦恩·贝茨：我在写第二章。

I was on Book Nine when you asked me what my favorite passages were.

当你问我最喜欢的段落是什么时，我正在读第九册。

But that's what it felt like, and this is actually why I'm so glad it happened this way.

但这就是感觉，这实际上就是为什么我很高兴它以这种方式发生。

These days, we've all experienced what it means to binge-watch a television show and get so immersed in it that it becomes a part of our daily lives.

如今，我们都经历过狂看电视节目并沉浸其中，以至于它成为我们日常生活的一部分意味着什么。

Dwayne Betts: But, actually, that used to be a familiar feeling that we got when we read back in the days when we were younger and we could really get deeply immersed.

德韦恩·贝茨：但是，实际上，这曾经是我们年轻时读书时的一种熟悉的感觉，我们真的可以深深地沉浸其中。

Now, it's so difficult to do because even if you read a big book over six weeks, six months, something about the book, it disperses itself.

现在，这很难做到，因为即使你读了一本大书超过六周、六个月，关于这本书的一些内容，它也会自行消失。

It just sort of floats in your psyche.

它只是漂浮在你的心灵中。

But, I was deeply engaged for hours and hours every day.

但是，我每天都会投入几个小时。

I walked 28,000 steps yesterday.

我昨天走了 28,000 步。

Every one of those steps, I had The Iliad in my hand, I had the Kindle in my hand.

每一步，我手里都拿着《伊利亚特》，手里拿着 Kindle。

I was weaving traffic.

我正在编织交通。

I felt like it was moments--

我感觉那是一个时刻——

And, actually, it became embedded in my personal life.

事实上，它已经融入了我的个人生活。

A friend of mine, may he rest in peace, this guy Melvin Davis, who was brilliant and who was a veteran, he died over the weekend.

我的一个朋友，愿他安息吧，这个家伙梅尔文·戴维斯，他很聪明，也是一名退伍军人，他在周末去世了。

And, it was one of those things where it eased his suffering, and his family knew, and I knew.

而且，这是减轻他痛苦的事情之一，他的家人知道，我也知道。

And, I just had this kind of relationship with him that was rooted in storytelling.

而且，我和他的关系就是植根于讲故事。

And so, even me reading The Iliad was also me thinking about him.

所以，即使是我在读《伊利亚特》的同时也在想着他。

One of the last conversations that we had was about a musket.

我们最后一次谈话是关于步枪的。

Which again, a musket as a tool of war; but also bringing in the conversation about a musket when he was at his sick bed was kind of similar to the way in which you could sing these stories of the way in which our lives sometimes feel like this struggle for glory.

再次，步枪作为战争工具；但当他在病床上时引入关于步枪的谈话有点类似于你可以唱这些故事的方式，我们的生活有时感觉像是为荣耀而奋斗。

You could sing that story and sing it in peace when somebody is on their way to another version of their journey.

当有人踏上旅程的另一个版本时，你可以唱这个故事并平静地唱它。

So, it was just beautiful, actually.

所以，实际上它很漂亮。

I feel like I'm still giddy in a kind of fever dream that has changed the way I think about how you could understand life with a story that feels this old and that's refreshingly new.

我觉得我仍然沉浸在一种狂热的梦想中，这改变了我对如何通过一个既古老又新鲜的故事来理解生活的看法。

Yeah, I really actually appreciated the opportunity.

是的，我真的很感激这个机会。

Russ Roberts: Well, I'm glad to hear it.

拉斯·罗伯茨：嗯，我很高兴听到这个消息。

It's 24 books, meaning 24 chapters.

这是 24 本书，即 24 章。

And, to be clear, in the Fagles translation which I read--and there are many, many good translations, or entertaining translations, or moving translations-- but, it's about a 500- or 600-page book, and I just don't want anybody listening out there to think, 'Oh, my God, a 600-page poem.

而且，需要明确的是，在我读过的法格尔斯译本中——有很多很多好的翻译，或者有趣的翻译，或者感人的翻译——但是，这是一本 500 或 600 页的书，我只是不希望任何人听完后会想，‘哦，天哪，这是一首 600 页的诗。

I'll never get through it.' But, you did it in three days.

我永远也无法克服它。但是，你三天之内就做到了。

You are a poet: maybe a little bit unrepresentative.

你是一位诗人：也许有点不具有代表性。

But, I read the last third within the last week, also: so I did a bit of a sprint, of immersion.

但是，我也在上周读了最后三分之一：所以我做了一些冲刺，沉浸其中。

And I knew, because this is the way Homer writes--and it is part of our civilization, part of our culture--that many of these stories, I knew what was going to happen.

我知道，因为这就是荷马的写作方式——它是我们文明的一部分，我们文化的一部分——所以我知道其中许多故事会发生什么。

I knew the end of the story.

我知道故事的结局。

I knew, and I'll lay it out here again very simply for those of you listening: This story is not about the Trojan War.

我知道，我会在这里再次简单地向你们听众说明：这个故事与特洛伊战争无关。

It's a story about an episode in the 10th year of the war when Achilles is offended by Agamemnon.

这是关于战争第十年阿喀琉斯被阿伽门农得罪的一段插曲的故事。

We talked about this in the first episode with Ido Hevroni.

我们在第一集中与伊多·赫夫罗尼 (Ido Hevroni) 讨论了这个问题。

He's offended because Agamemnon wants to take away--he takes away--a woman he won in battle, as a piece of triumph, of swag.

他被冒犯了，因为阿伽门农想要带走——他带走了——他在战斗中赢得的一个女人，作为胜利的一部分，赃物。

It's grotesque, but this is the world they live in.

这很奇怪，但这就是他们生活的世界。

And, as a result of this, he sulks in his tent, is the famous example.

结果，他在帐篷里生闷气，这就是著名的例子。

Achilles refuses to fight the Trojans.

阿喀琉斯拒绝与特洛伊人作战。

His commander, Agamemnon, and he are in a feud.

他的指挥官阿伽门农和他有仇。

And, worse, Achilles asks through his mother, who is a goddess--Achilles is the offspring of a goddess and a great man, Peleus--he asks his mother to talk to Zeus and have Hector and the Trojans kill a lot of his comrades so that he will be desperately needed to reenter the war.

更糟糕的是，阿喀琉斯通过他的母亲——一位女神——阿喀琉斯是女神和伟人珀琉斯的后代——要求他的母亲与宙斯交谈，让赫克托耳和特洛伊人杀死他的许多战友，这样他就迫切需要重新参加战争。

And, it tragically backfires on him.

而且，这给他带来了悲剧性的适得其反的结果。

We'll talk about it later, probably.

也许我们稍后会讨论它。

But, his best friend, Patroclus, gets killed.

但是，他最好的朋友帕特洛克罗斯被杀了。

And, as a result, he comes back into the war, and he kills Hector, who had killed Patroclus.

结果，他又回到了战争中，并杀死了杀死帕特罗克洛斯的赫克托耳。

Hector is the superstar or superhero, incredible warrior for the Trojans.

赫克托是超级巨星或超级英雄，是特洛伊人不可思议的战士。

The book ends with an extraordinary encounter of Priam, the father of Hector, the King of Troy, asking Achilles for the body of his son back.

本书以特洛伊国王赫克托耳的父亲普里阿摩斯的一次非同寻常的遭遇结束，他向阿喀琉斯索要儿子的尸体。

And, we know this is going to happen, and we know Achilles is going to die soon, although he does not die in this book.

而且，我们知道这将会发生，我们知道阿喀琉斯很快就会死，尽管他在本书中没有死。

But, a lot of the drama is just foreshadowed explicitly by Homer.

但是，很多戏剧只是荷马明确预示的。

So, that's the story.

所以，这就是故事。

Tell me, what was positive and negative for you about the book, and what surprised you?

告诉我，这本书给你带来的积极和消极的方面是什么，以及什么让你感到惊讶？

Dwayne Betts: It surprised me that I wept at the end.

德韦恩·贝茨：令我惊讶的是，我最后哭了。

Dwayne Betts: And I did know what was going to happen.

德韦恩·贝茨：我确实知道会发生什么。

Russ Roberts: Yeah, it was unbelievably moving.

拉斯·罗伯茨：是的，这令人难以置信的感动。

Dwayne Betts: That really surprised me.

德韦恩·贝茨：这真的让我感到惊讶。

And then, there was another point.

然后，还有一点。

It was a quote that I had read years ago about the Vietnam.

这是我多年前读过的关于越南的一句话。

It said something to the effect that: 'It was a world in which there seemed to be a lot of choices, but there were actually no choices.' And, I felt like it was a passage in there that I found deeply moving about the whole book felt like that.

它的大意是：“这是一个看似有很多选择的世界，但实际上没有选择。”而且，我觉得整本书中的一段话让我深受感动。

Like, Homer does a wildly emitive[?] job of creating this cast of characters who seem to have so many choices and yet still have none.

就像，荷马在塑造这群似乎有很多选择但实际上却没有选择的角色方面做得非常出色。

And that tension is what drives you along.

正是这种紧张感推动着你前进。

And it's so well done that even though I knew what would happen next, I still read it as if there was a choice about what would happen next--

它做得非常好，即使我知道接下来会发生什么，我仍然读它，就好像接下来会发生什么有一个选择一样——

Dwayne Betts: And, it was something that was beautiful about the juxtaposition that was constantly happening.

德韦恩·贝茨：而且，不断发生的并置是一种美丽的东西。

It was like The Things They Carried , actually.

实际上，这就像他们携带的东西。

It was like the whole book was an animation of The Things They Carried because--

整本书就像是《他们携带的东西》的动画，因为——

Russ Roberts: That's a book on Vietnam by, I think, is it Tim O'Brien?

拉斯·罗伯茨：我想这是一本关于越南的书，是蒂姆·奥布莱恩写的吗？

Russ Roberts: The Things They Carried .

拉斯·罗伯茨：他们携带的东西。

Yeah, go ahead.

是的，继续吧。

Dwayne Betts: Because here, you never got introduced to characters as if all they were were soldiers.

德韦恩·贝茨：因为在这里，你永远不会被介绍给角色，就好像他们都是士兵一样。

They had this life that extended outside of Troy that was always evoked with a kind of regret or a kind of honor, but it always had a kind of sorrow to it.

他们在特洛伊之外的生活总是让人感到一种遗憾或一种荣誉，但也总是带着一种悲伤。

Because you knew that these were essentially a string of elegies, a string of obituaries that you were hearing constantly throughout the book.

因为你知道这些本质上是一串挽歌，一串你在整本书中不断听到的讣告。

But that I was surprised at how taken aback I was by the ability for this seemingly kind of war story to explicate so many complicated ideas I have about friendship, about love, about trust, about anger.

但令我惊讶的是，这个看似战争的故事能够解释我对友谊、爱情、信任和愤怒的如此多复杂的想法，这让我大吃一惊。

And also, about the ways in which you could be--I don't know if you've ever been in a situation like this, but you felt like it was a foregone conclusion what you would do.

而且，关于你可以采取的方式——我不知道你是否曾经遇到过这样的情况，但你觉得你会做什么已成定局。

I remember when I went to prison.

我记得我进监狱的时候。

I went to prison when I was 16 years old.

我16岁时进了监狱。

I absolutely felt like--you know, after I committed the crime, I literally felt like it was a foregone conclusion that I was going to prison.

我绝对感觉——你知道，在我犯罪之后，我真的觉得我进监狱已成定局。

As if--I've often told myself this metaphor--that I drove myself.

就好像——我经常告诉自己这个比喻——我自己开车。

And, surviving prison was not a foregone conclusion.

而且，在监狱中幸存并不是已成定局。

But I felt like I got lost in a world where I had no choices, but somehow still ended up discovering choices.

但我觉得我迷失在一个没有选择的世界里，但不知何故最终还是发现了选择。

And that's kind of what The Iliad is for me.

这就是《伊利亚特》对我的意义。

It's this world in which the characters seemingly have no choices, but still consistently animate what it means to make choices under the most dire constraints.

在这个世界中，角色看似别无选择，但仍然始终如一地生动地表现出在最严峻的限制下做出选择的意义。

In some sense, the best of my time in prison was trying to emulate that process, where you find a way to make a choice even when it's a foregone conclusion.

从某种意义上说，我在监狱里最美好的时光就是试图模仿这个过程，在那里你找到一种方法来做出选择，即使它已成定局。

Like, even when you would rail against the gods: There's one scene where Achilles says, 'Don't predict my death.

就像，即使你会抱怨众神：有一个场景阿喀琉斯说，“不要预测我的死亡。”

I know I'm going to die,' but I kind of still get to make this choice about what happens for the next few hours.

我知道我会死，但我仍然可以对接下来几个小时发生的事情做出选择。

It was lovely.

很可爱。

Russ Roberts: Well, and by the way, listeners who don't know Dwayne--I forget you're not a household name to every listener.

拉斯·罗伯茨：嗯，顺便说一句，不认识德韦恩的听众——我忘了你并不是每个听众都家喻户晓的名字。

You can go back--we'll link to them--the previous episodes that tells your story, which is an extraordinary story of your time in prison and afterwards.

您可以返回 - 我们将链接到它们 - 讲述您故事的前几集，这是您在监狱中及其之后的非凡故事。

The things you've done since then are amazing.

从那时起你所做的事情令人惊叹。

But we're going to focus on The Iliad today.

但我们今天要重点讨论《伊利亚特》。

But, the role the gods play in the book just gets richer and richer.

但是，诸神在书中扮演的角色却变得越来越丰富。

When you start the book, you think, 'Oh, wow, the gods kind of jerk people around now and then.' But, they get a lot of air time, and they're not just, like, 'Oh, and by the way, Zeus did this, or Hera did that.' They get increasingly involved.

当你开始读这本书时，你会想，“哦，哇，上帝时不时就会欺骗人们。”但是，他们有很多播出时间，而且他们不仅仅是，‘哦，顺便说一句，宙斯做了这个，或者赫拉做了那个。’他们越来越多地参与其中。

I just want to say one thing because you mentioned about the characters.

我只想说一件事，因为你提到了角色。

In the previous episode of the Club when I talked with Ido Hevroni, he mentioned that there was something like a thousand characters.

在《俱乐部》的上一集中，当我与 Ido Hevroni 交谈时，他提到有大约一千个角色。

And, for those of you who read Russian novels, that may sound very intimidating.

而且，对于那些读过俄罗斯小说的人来说，这可能听起来非常令人生畏。

Most of them appear--those names appear once.

他们中的大多数都出现过——那些名字只出现过一次。

It'll say, 'Achilles killed so-and-so.' And I felt at times--I felt at times, that this book is a chronicle: it's sort of a history book at one level to let readers who couldn't have Google hear what happened to this person or that person.

它会说：“阿喀琉斯杀死了某某。”我有时觉得——我有时觉得，这本书是一部编年史：在某种程度上，它是一本历史书，让无法使用谷歌的读者听到这个人或那个人发生了什么事。

But, in fact, there are about 10 characters, maybe a few more.

但事实上，大约有10个字符，也许更多。

But, there's a handful of extraordinary warriors on the Greek side.

但是，希腊方面有一些非凡的战士。

There's a handful of extraordinary warriors on the Trojan side.

特洛伊一方有一些非凡的战士。

There's a couple of women.

有几个女人。

There's a few goddesses.

女神有好几个。

So, we might get to 20, but I don't want you listening out there to be intimidated.

所以，我们可能会达到 20 个，但我不希望你在外面听的时候感到害怕。

Dwayne Betts: And, it's also interesting, the way that the characters get introduced.

德韦恩·贝茨：而且，角色的介绍方式也很有趣。

I was talking to a friend of mine last night, and she was reading the Letters of Virginia Woolf.

昨晚我和一个朋友聊天，她正在读弗吉尼亚·伍尔夫的书信。

And, she said that in the letters it always says, 'I thank you for the letter you sent to me recounting the summer that you spent in France and how you were working on that new short story.

而且，她说，信中总是写着：“我感谢你寄给我的信，讲述了你在法国度过的夏天以及你如何创作新的短篇小说。”

It was such a beautiful story.' And then, it'll go into what Virginia Woolf wants to say.

这是一个如此美丽的故事。然后，它会进入弗吉尼亚·伍尔夫想说的话。

And, I thought about how beautiful that is because oftentimes--and she said it was a form, it was a structure, it was a constraint, and it was a way to say, 'I heard you.'

而且，我想到那是多么美丽，因为很多时候——她说这是一种形式，这是一种结构，这是一种约束，这是一种说“我听到了你的声音”的方式。

Dwayne Betts: I actually think that Homer does that constantly--

德韦恩·贝茨：我实际上认为荷马经常这样做——

Dwayne Betts: And, sometimes he says: Agamemnon says, 'Odysseus, I need to send you to Achilles and I want to to say exactly what I said.

德韦恩·贝茨：有时他会说：阿伽门农说，‘奥德修斯，我需要送你去见阿喀琉斯，我想准确地说出我所说的。

Say this.' And then, later, when Odysseus is in front of Achilles, he says the exact same thing--like, word for word, the exact same speech.

说这个。然后，后来，当奥德修斯站在阿喀琉斯面前时，他说了完全相同的事情——就像，逐字逐句，完全相同的演讲。

And, there's something that's beautiful about that because it's these echoes that get created in the text that's almost like the--so even though it's a lot of characters, there's so many of these echoes that each time you've been taught how to read it, you begin to understand that these soldiers, their names aren't there to make you know them.

而且，这有一些美妙之处，因为在文本中产生的这些回声几乎就像——所以即使它有很多角色，也有很多这样的回声，以至于每次你被教如何阅读它时，你开始明白这些士兵，他们的名字并不是为了让你认识他们。

Their names are there to make you understand that this war has huge ramifications on more than just the seven or eight central figures and the gods.

他们的名字让你明白这场战争不仅仅对七八个中心人物和众神产生巨大的影响。

It has huge ramifications--it even evokes their mothers and their fathers--

它具有巨大的影响——它甚至唤起了他们的母亲和父亲——

Dwayne Betts: and their kinfolk.

德韦恩·贝茨：和他们的亲属。

And so, that becomes, for me, a structural element that allowed me to truly, like, dance with the book.

因此，对我来说，这成为一个结构元素，让我真正喜欢与书共舞。

And I, literally, I read every word.

而我，从字面上看，我读了每一个字。

I thought that I would get lost in skimming because I also knew the story, but I found that I just wanted to read it.

我以为我会迷失在浏览中，因为我也知道这个故事，但我发现我只是想读它。

Dwayne Betts: I have friends of mine, man, who they didn't--my father actually didn't get a chance to live the life that I lived; and I thought about how, when I went to prison, I changed my name and everybody called me Shahid.

德韦恩·贝茨：我有我的朋友，伙计，但他们没有——我父亲实际上没有机会过我那样的生活；我的父亲实际上没有机会过我这样的生活。我想到，当我进监狱时，我改变了我的名字，每个人都叫我沙希德。

And then, when I came home, my mom, and my friends, and my people called me Dwayne again, and now I have a world where some people call me Dwayne, some people call me Shahid.

然后，当我回到家时，我的妈妈、我的朋友和我的人民再次叫我德韦恩，现在我的世界里有人叫我德韦恩，有人叫我沙希德。

But then I went to college and people called me Reginald.

但后来我上了大学，人们都叫我雷金纳德。

And, I had to ask myself, 'Why do I publish under Reginald Dwayne Betts?

而且，我不得不问自己，‘为什么我要在雷金纳德·德韦恩·贝茨 (Reginald Dwayne Betts) 的领导下发表作品？

Why do I let people call me so many different names?' And, I realized that it's something about me trying to honor how I've had to walk through this world in different ways.

为什么我让人们叫我这么多不同的名字？而且，我意识到这是我试图尊重我如何以不同的方式走过这个世界的事情。

But, also, when I say Reginald Dwayne Betts, it is my father's name.

但是，当我说雷金纳德·德韦恩·贝茨时，这是我父亲的名字。

And I feel like what I get to do is, even in invoking his name, I get to give some honor to the possibility of his life.

我觉得我要做的是，即使在提到他的名字时，我也要对他生命的可能性给予一些尊重。

And so, much of The Iliad is literally nestled in people's lives being cut short.

因此，《伊利亚特》的大部分内容实际上都是围绕着人们的生命被缩短而展开的。

In a cruel--it's almost like this person was great at home.

残酷的是——这几乎就像这个人在家里表现得很好一样。

If only they hadn't chosen to come to Troy where they'll be cut down, where they can't outrun death.

要是他们没有选择来到特洛伊就好了，在那里他们会被砍倒，在那里他们无法逃脱死亡。

There's so many instances where the book just reminds you that invoking a name isn't about saying, 'Remember who this individual person is,' but to recognize this world of war.

在很多情况下，这本书只是提醒你，引用一个名字并不是说“记住这个人是谁”，而是要认识到这个战争世界。

It's almost like the Amichai poem, "The Diameter of a Bomb": The literal text illuminates a world in which the suffering--the circle includes everybody, and there's nobody that's left out.

这几乎就像阿米猜的诗《炸弹的直径》：字面上的文字阐明了一个痛苦的世界——这个圆圈包括每个人，没有人被排除在外。

That's constantly an element of, I think, the story that I get from the Fagles translation, which I also read.

我认为，这一直是我从法格尔斯翻译中得到的故事的一个元素，我也读过该书。

Russ Roberts: So, which poem is this that you mentioned just now?

拉斯·罗伯茨：那么，你刚才提到的这首诗是哪一首？

Dwayne Betts: The Yehuda Amichai--I know I'm pronouncing his name wrong.

Dwayne Betts：Yehuda Amichai——我知道我把他的名字念错了。

I know it.

我知道这。

But, the poem "The Diameter of The Bomb."

但是，诗《炸弹的直径》。

Russ Roberts: No. It's Yehuda Amichai, by the way, but you're close.

Russ Roberts：不。顺便说一下，我是 Yehuda Amichai，但你已经很接近了。

Dwayne Betts: Oh, I have to read you this poem.

德韦恩·贝茨：哦，我必须给你读这首诗。

This is wild.

这太疯狂了。

I don't believe you've never heard--I read this poem in prison, and it's become one of the things that has been a touchstone of how I think about the world and how I think about suffering.

我相信你从来没有听说过——我在监狱里读过这首诗，它已经成为我如何看待世界和如何看待苦难的试金石之一。

Russ Roberts: Whoa.

拉斯·罗伯茨：哇哦。

Yeah, I've never heard that.

是的，我从来没有听说过。

That's extraordinary.

这太了不起了。

Russ Roberts: One other thing I want to mention to listeners--I don't know if we mentioned it in the first episode--is that similar to a Russian novel, people get patronymics.

拉斯·罗伯茨：我想向听众提及的另一件事——我不知道我们是否在第一集中提到过——是，与俄罗斯小说类似，人们会得到父名。

They get an extra name based on their father--just to confuse you.

他们根据他们的父亲得到了一个额外的名字——只是为了让你迷惑。

But it's a pretty simple rule.

但这是一个非常简单的规则。

And so, if I remember this correctly, Atrides, A-T-R-I-D-E-S, Agamemnon and Menelaus both get called Atrides.

因此，如果我没记错的话，阿特里德斯、A-T-R-I-D-E-S、阿伽门农和墨涅拉俄斯都被称为阿特里德斯。

And, the reason is, is that their father is--and I'm forgetting his name now--it's Atreus, I think.

而且，原因是，他们的父亲——我现在忘记他的名字了——我想是阿特柔斯。

So, Atrides means 'son of Atreus.' They're brothers, so they're both Atrides.

因此，阿特里德斯的意思是“阿特柔斯之子”。他们是兄弟，所以他们都是阿特里德斯。

So, a lot of characters either have as their name 'the son of,' or they occasionally get this bonus name that alludes to their origins.

因此，很多角色的名字要么是“……的儿子”，要么他们偶尔会得到这个暗示其出身的额外名字。

One of the more powerful aspects of the poem is the constant invocation of home.

这首诗最有力的方面之一是不断地召唤家乡。

Which, of course, The Odyssey --the next book--is all about that and the attempt to return home.

当然，下一本书《奥德赛》就是关于这个和回家的尝试。

But often, a character will trash talk a person they're fighting with and say, 'You're not going to get home.

但通常情况下，一个角色会对与他们打架的人说脏话，并说，‘你不会回家的。

You're going to be eaten by dogs here on the plains of Troy and your mother will never be able to mourn your death.' And this is a terrible, terrible threat and fate for the characters.

你会在特洛伊平原被狗吃掉，而你的母亲将永远无法哀悼你的死亡。这对于角色来说是一个非常非常可怕的威胁和命运。

Dwayne Betts: I wondered this.

德韦恩·贝茨：我想知道这个。

It makes me want to know the original and be able to read it--

这让我想了解原著并能够阅读它——

Dwayne Betts: Because the translation is so fresh that I just wondered how it sounded in the original.

Dwayne Betts：因为翻译太新鲜了，我只是想知道它在原文中听起来如何。

There was one line, it was talking about the Argives wouldn't relent to the Trojans, but the Trojans were pounding them and pounding them and pushing them back towards their ships.

其中有一句话，说的是阿尔戈斯人不会对特洛伊人心慈手软，但特洛伊人却不断地殴打他们，并将他们推回自己的船上。

And, it says, 'But, the Argives, they held tight as a working widow holds the scales.'

而且，它说，“但是，阿尔戈斯人，他们紧紧抓住，就像一个工作寡妇拿着天平一样。”

So, I think Homer does it in two ways.

所以，我认为荷马通过两种方式做到了这一点。

One is invoking a soldier and a soldier's life outside of war.

一个是援引一名士兵和一名士兵在战争之外的生活。

And, the other is you had these similes and these metaphors that yoke the world of war to the world of work.

另一个是你有这些明喻和隐喻，将战争世界与工作世界联系在一起。

They yoke the world of war to the world of not war in this elegant way that makes you--people often say things like, 'Well, you wouldn't relate to this story because you're not a soldier,' or 'because you don't like war.' But, I think it's actually a really skillful, precise thing is that the story does that reminds you that this is not just about war.

他们以这种优雅的方式将战争世界与非战争世界联系在一起，让你——人们经常说这样的话，“好吧，你不会与这个故事产生共鸣，因为你不是士兵”，或者“因为你不喜欢战争”。但是，我认为这实际上是一个非常巧妙、精确的事情，这个故事确实提醒你这不仅仅是关于战争的。

That it is about family, that it is about friendship, that it is about the unmistakable burden of sorrow and cruelty.

这是关于家庭，关于友谊，关于明显的悲伤和残酷的负担。

Russ Roberts: Yeah.

拉斯·罗伯茨：是的。

So, the other thing I wanted to allude to or just mention is the cinematic nature of this book.

因此，我想提及或只是提及的另一件事是这本书的电影性质。

It's visually stunning.

它在视觉上令人惊叹。

I'm going to read a very short excerpt here, which is an example of this.

我将在这里阅读一段很短的摘录，这是一个例子。

And, when I read this, I will mention Ares.

而且，当我读到这篇文章时，我会提到阿瑞斯。

Ares is the god of war and sometimes--anyway, Ares is the god of war.

阿瑞斯是战神，有时——无论如何，阿瑞斯是战神。

Here's the quote [from Book XVI]:

这是[来自第十六册]的引述：

That image of this guy just missing being killed and then the spear lodging in the ground and quivering, the butt-end, the part that isn't the sharp end.

这个家伙刚刚被杀，然后长矛陷在地上颤抖，枪托末端，不是锋利末端的部分。

Until suddenly, the god of war snuffed its fury out.

直到突然，战神熄灭了他的愤怒。

It eventually stopped quivering and it comes to a stop.

它最终停止了颤抖，停了下来。

But, you can see it so, so vividly.

但是，你可以看到它如此生动。

Russ Roberts: The other thing, of course, is the violence in this book is so graphic.

拉斯·罗伯茨：当然，另一件事是这本书中的暴力是如此生动。

The descriptions of how people die and where the spears get them and the swords, and how their heads are hurt inside their helmet--it's pretty gruesome.

关于人们如何死亡、长矛和剑在哪里击中他们、以及他们的头部如何在头盔内受伤的描述——这是相当可怕的。

Dwayne Betts: And literally, one of the things about the brutality of it is how descriptive the brutality is.

德韦恩·贝茨（Dwayne Betts）：从字面上看，关于其残酷性的一件事是对残酷性的描述性。

Dwayne Betts: And, the brutality, it exists as exactly what it is, but it's often accompanied, juxtaposed with the cost of it.

德韦恩·贝茨（Dwayne Betts）：而且，残酷性确实存在，但它常常伴随着它的成本，并与之并列。

Nobody's oblivious, even as they chase fame, even if they chase good fortune.

没有人会忘记，即使他们追逐名誉，即使他们追逐好运。

There's this one passage where it's one guy, Hippotus: he's out for fame.

有这样一段话，里面有一个人，河马：他是为了名誉。

And it says that: 'He's here because he's out for fame.' But, then, this is the passage that narrates his death.

上面写着：“他来这里是因为他是为了名誉。”但是，这就是叙述他死亡的段落。

How can you start a passage this way?

你怎么能这样开始一段话呢？

Right?

正确的？

There's so much often where he tells you in advance what's going to happen and then you still delight in the telling.

很多时候，他会提前告诉你将要发生的事情，然后你仍然很高兴告诉你。

It says [from Book XVII]:

它说[来自第十七册]：

You have a passage where actually, nobody is necessarily a villain and everybody is left mourning.

实际上，你有一段话，没有人一定是恶棍，每个人都在哀悼。

But, it's just beautiful to me the way that you get reminded that your actions of today don't just touch you.

但是，对我来说，提醒你今天的行为不仅仅触动了你，这真是太美妙了。

It touches the family that you left.

这触动了你离开的家人。

You went to war to bring honor to your family when really, you went to war to--and it always reminds you that that war chasing riches.

你参战是为了给你的家人带来荣誉，而实际上，你参战是为了——它总是提醒你，那场战争是为了追逐财富。

Dwayne Betts: They murder somebody and they immediately take in the armor.

德韦恩·贝茨：他们谋杀了某人，然后立即收起了盔甲。

And, it also reminds you of one subtle thing, too.

而且，它也让你想起一件微妙的事情。

One, that war chasing riches.

第一，那场追逐财富的战争。

And, two, a lot of them don't have money.

第二，他们中的很多人没有钱。

So, they're not just taking the armor and stuff, and the clothes: they actually using the armor and the weapons for the next fight.

所以，他们不只是拿走盔甲和东西，还有衣服：他们实际上是在下一场战斗中使用盔甲和武器。

Even Hector, the great warrior that he is, puts on Achilles' armor.

就连伟大的战士赫克托耳也穿上了阿喀琉斯的盔甲。

He doesn't just, like, take it as a trophy.

他不只是把它当作奖杯。

He also takes it as something that will protect him.

他也将其视为可以保护他的东西。

And so, often, people die because their armor is not as good as others'.

因此，人们常常因为自己的盔甲不如别人而死亡。

Dwayne Betts: It cracks in some place, it shatters--

德韦恩·贝茨：它在某个地方破裂了，它破碎了——

Dwayne Betts: Right.

德韦恩·贝茨：对。

Oh, you're sending people--it's almost like some of the soldiers you recognize have no hope to survive the end of the chapter, let alone the end of the book--

哦，你派人来了——这几乎就像你认识的一些士兵没有希望在这一章的结尾处幸存下来，更不用说在这本书的结尾了——

Dwayne Betts: And somehow, they still have to have that humanity.

德韦恩·贝茨：不知何故，他们仍然必须拥有那种人性。

It's wild.

它很狂野。

I think it's also just a lesson that, in this world, everybody can matter.

我认为这也是一个教训，在这个世界上，每个人都可以发挥作用。

I think it's a certain kind of democracy in the violence that happens in the book and a certain kind of democracy in the capriciousness of the gods.

我认为这是书中发生的暴力中的某种民主，也是神的反复无常中的某种民主。

Even amongst the gods.

哪怕是诸神之中。

I thought it was also compelling--I'm realizing, that Zeus could be swayed.

我认为这也很引人注目——我意识到，宙斯可能会受到影响。

He could be swayed by something other than--it was a moment when Zeus was going to save Sarpedon, he was going to save his son.

他可能会被其他事情所左右，除了——在宙斯要拯救萨耳珀冬的那一刻，他要拯救他的儿子。

And Hera--usually you see people praying, you see people extorting the gods, you see people bemoaning and wailing what has been done.

还有赫拉——通常你会看到人们祈祷，你会看到人们勒索众神，你会看到人们为所发生的事情哀叹和哀号。

But, this was one where it was just pure reason.

但是，这只是纯粹的理由。

It was logic.

这是逻辑。

It was, like, 'Are you seriously considering rescuing your son?

就像，‘你认真考虑拯救你的儿子吗？

All of the gods have lost sons and daughters to this war and to the violence of the humans.

所有的神都因这场战争和人类的暴力而失去了儿女。

Is death not just a natural consequence of life?' It was a weird moment where I would have never thought that he would be open to being convinced.

死亡不只是生命的自然结果吗？那是一个奇怪的时刻，我从来没有想到他会愿意被说服。

Dwayne Betts: And so, it's also, like, the book, it's a contradiction the way life is.

德韦恩·贝茨：所以，就像这本书一样，它是生活的矛盾。

You could be all-powerful and still be swayed by reason.

你可能是全能的，但仍然受到理性的影响。

You could be capricious and cruel, and still have a soft spot and rescue somebody because you say that they are ordained not to die in Troy.

你可能任性而残忍，但仍然心存柔软，去拯救某人，因为你说他们注定不会死在特洛伊。

Russ Roberts: Yeah.

拉斯·罗伯茨：是的。

I just want to mention something about the plot to make clear what you just said.

我只是想提一下剧情，以澄清你刚才说的话。

The extraordinary moment--and I don't remember if Homer tells you in advance how it's going to turn out, but you know it's going to turn out this way--that Achilles, who is not helping his teammates, his comrades, allows his best friend, Patroclus, to go into battle.

那非同寻常的时刻——我不记得荷马是否提前告诉过你事情会如何发展，但你知道结果会是这样——阿喀琉斯没有帮助他的队友、战友，却允许他最好的朋友帕特罗克洛斯上阵。

He gives him limits.

他给了他限制。

He says, 'Don't pursue them.

他说，‘别追他们。

Make sure you don't go past' a certain point.

确保你不会超过某个点。

And of course, Patroclus fails to take that advice, and Hector kills him.

当然，帕特罗克洛斯没有接受这个建议，赫克托杀了他。

But, one of the more extraordinary parts of the book--it's, again, an incredible plot twist--is that Achilles, because he loves Patroclus, wants to protect him.

但是，这本书中最不寻常的部分之一——这又是一个令人难以置信的情节转折——是阿喀琉斯因为爱帕特罗克洛斯，所以想要保护他。

So he gives him his armor.

所以他给了他他的盔甲。

So, when Patroclus goes into battle, he's got the best gear.

所以，当帕特洛克罗斯投入战斗时，他拥有最好的装备。

And, as you say, when Hector kills Patroclus, he takes his armor.

而且，正如你所说，当赫克托耳杀死帕特罗克洛斯时，他夺走了他的盔甲。

He doesn't just take it as a trophy: He puts it on.

他不只是把它当作奖杯：他把它戴上。

And the emotional--it's such a visceral image of wearing your enemy's armor.

还有情感上的——这是一个穿着敌人盔甲的发自内心的形象。

And, it's a theme that runs through the whole book, by the way.

顺便说一句，这是贯穿整本书的主题。

There's two horrible motifs, among others, that run through the book.

其中有两个可怕的主题贯穿整本书。

One is that when a person is killed in the war, his enemy takes the armor.

一是当一个人在战争中被杀时，他的敌人会夺走盔甲。

It's sort of a trophy of triumph.

这有点像胜利的奖杯。

And the second thing is you want to keep the body.

第二件事是你想保留身体。

So, a lot of the book is about making sure that body is not disfigured.

所以，这本书的很多内容都是关于确保身体不被毁容。

To die out in the plains, out in the field, in the battlefield and be eaten by dogs and birds is everybody's unspoken fear.

死在平原、野外、战场，被狗和鸟吃掉，是每个人无言的恐惧。

And, Patroclus, there's a whole chapter about the Greeks trying to get Patroclus' body back to the ships and to save it from being despoiled by the Trojans.

而且，帕特罗克洛斯，有一整章是关于希腊人试图将帕特罗克洛斯的尸体带回船上并防止其被特洛伊人掠夺的。

And, similarly--this is just an incredible image.

同样，这只是一个令人难以置信的图像。

I'd heard about it as a child; my dad had told me the story.

我小时候就听说过这件事；我爸爸给我讲过这个故事。

But, Achilles, after he avenges the death of Patroclus and kills Hector, takes his body, ties it to the back of his chariot, and drives it around town--not town, but around the camp--for days .

但是，阿喀琉斯在为帕特罗克洛斯的死报仇并杀死了赫克托耳之后，把他的尸体绑在战车后面，并驾驶着它绕着城镇转了好几天——不是城镇，而是营地。

I think it's 12 days.

我认为是12天。

Which, his body should be grotesquely disfigured, and yet the gods intervene, and they keep Hector's body pristine.

他的身体本应被严重毁容，但诸神介入，让赫克托的身体保持原始状态。

They don't allow it to decay--which is an important motif in literature often, that certain people's bodies don't decay like normal people's.

他们不允许它腐烂——这通常是文学中的一个重要主题，即某些人的身体不会像正常人那样腐烂。

And, the gods protect it from being disfigured by being dragged along the ground.

而且，众神保护它不被拖在地上而变形。

And, it's a huge thing to be able to bury your dead and to keep your armor.

而且，能够埋葬你的死者并保留你的盔甲是一件了不起的事情。

I'll just mention that after Hector takes his armor, Achilles' armor, Achilles needs a new set.

我只想提一下，在赫克托拿走他的盔甲，阿基里斯的盔甲后，阿基里斯需要一套新的。

This is a crazy chapter.

这是疯狂的一章。

Dwayne Betts: At first, I thought he was going to go to war.

德韦恩·贝茨：一开始，我以为他要去打仗。

See, this is the thing.

看吧，就是这个事情。

I thought that he was going--that, one, Homer is actually better than the movie.

我以为他会——那个，荷马实际上比电影更好。

And, people often say the book is better than the movie.

而且，人们经常说这本书比电影更好。

Dwayne Betts: But, I think that The Iliad as a book, Hector has way more dimension.

德韦恩·贝茨：但是，我认为《伊利亚特》作为一本书，赫克托有更多的维度。

Dwayne Betts: When he kills Patroclus and he takes the armor, he is cruel.

德韦恩·贝茨：当他杀死帕特罗克洛斯并拿走盔甲时，他很残忍。

He is as insulting and biting as anybody else.

他和其他人一样侮辱和尖刻。

He's really cruel to Paris.

他对巴黎实在是太残忍了。

It's almost as if it's a line on--

几乎就像是一条线——

Dwayne Betts: His half-brother, who Helen of Troy--and this is how the whole war starts.

德韦恩·贝茨：他同父异母的兄弟，特洛伊的海伦——这就是整个战争的开始。

But, he is not oblivious to the absurdity of the situation they're in, and that is the fault of his brother.

但是，他并没有忘记他们所处的情况是多么荒谬，而这都是他哥哥的错。

He does not pretend like that's not the case.

他不会假装情况并非如此。

And, I thought that was just one of the really compelling things that made the book so engaging, is that people had real dimension and bite.

而且，我认为这只是这本书如此吸引人的真正引人注目的事情之一，那就是人们有真正的维度和咬合力。

They were cruel at times, and the cruelty backfired on them, but they had that dimension.

他们有时很残酷，而这种残酷却适得其反，但他们有这样的维度。

They made mistakes.

他们犯了错误。

Russ Roberts: So, when Achilles--we'll come back to that because I agree with that, although I think in the first part of the book Hector is by far the most compelling character.

拉斯·罗伯茨：所以，当阿基里斯——我们会回到这个问题上，因为我同意这一点，尽管我认为在本书的第一部分中，赫克托是迄今为止最引人注目的角色。

He's extraordinary.

他很非凡。

The scene which we talked about in the first episode with his wife is unbelievable.

我们在第一集中与他妻子谈论的场景令人难以置信。

But, Achilles, who is a very dislikable character through much of the book, in my mind redeems himself.

但是，阿喀琉斯在本书的大部分内容中都是一个非常令人讨厌的角色，但在我看来，他救赎了自己。

I'll be interested in if you agree.

如果你同意的话我会很感兴趣。

But, I just want to mention this crazy intermediate chapter, this little digression which would have been cut in a normal movie.

但是，我只想提一下这个疯狂的中间章节，这个在普通电影中会被剪掉的小题外话。

They would have left this on the cutting room floor or it never would have made it to the final version of the film.

他们会把它留在剪辑室的地板上，否则它永远不会出现在电影的最终版本中。

Because Achilles gives Patroclus his armor, and because Hector takes the armor after he kills Patroclus, Achilles needs a new set of armor.

因为阿喀琉斯给了帕特罗克洛斯他的盔甲，而赫克托尔在杀死帕特罗克洛斯后拿走了盔甲，所以阿喀琉斯需要一套新的盔甲。

Even though he's the greatest warrior on the battlefield, you got to have armor.

即使他是战场上最伟大的战士，你也必须拥有盔甲。

So, I think it's his mother goes up to the gods and says--she goes to Hephaestus, who is the god of the forge.

所以，我认为是他的母亲走向众神并说——她去了锻造之神赫菲斯托斯那里。

He's the craftsman of armor.

他是铠甲工匠。

And that scene, I can't do justice to it.

而那个场景，我无法公正地描述它。

It's a long, long scene.

这是一个很长很长的场景。

I'm not going to read it.

我不会读它。

But, the scene where Hephaestus crafts a new, even better, incredible set of armor and a shield.

但是，赫菲斯托斯制作了一套新的、更好的、令人难以置信的盔甲和盾牌的场景。

And, at one point, I was wondering, did I hallucinate this?

有一次，我在想，这是我的幻觉吗？

Because I read this last part on an 11-hour cross-country flight, and I was going in and out of sleep.

因为我是在 11 小时的跨国飞行中读到最后一部分的，当时我正处于睡梦中。

The shield that Hephaestus makes for Achilles, this new set, has, like, living scenes on it.

赫菲斯托斯为阿喀琉斯制作的盾牌是这个新套装，上面有类似的生活场景。

There's, like, multiple towns, and there's stuff happening on the shield where the people in the town are doing this, that, and the other.

比如说，有多个城镇，盾牌上正在发生一些事情，城镇里的人们正在做这个、那个、那个。

It's like a hologram.

它就像全息图。

It's insane!

太疯狂了！

It's so rich.

真是太丰富了

Dwayne Betts: This is one of my favorite parts.

德韦恩·贝茨：这是我最喜欢的部分之一。

This is Book 18.

这是第 18 册。

It was one of my favorite parts because--I thought also it was--so it's this part at the beginning where Achilles is playing a lyre, and they come in and they get him to go to war.

这是我最喜欢的部分之一，因为——我也这么认为——所以这部分一开始阿喀琉斯正在弹奏竖琴，他们进来让他去打仗。

And, it said something to the effect that, 'He rose from his peace.' And, what I thought was beautiful was that he rose from his peace, this idea that he both rose to break his peace--so it was a physical action that broke his peace.

而且，它说了一些大意是：“他从平安中复活了。”而且，我认为美丽的是他从平静中站起来，这个想法是他站起来打破了他的平静——所以这是一个身体动作打破了他的平静。

But, also, this idea of what is peace.

但是，还有什么是和平的想法。

And, you had this great warrior who knew how to play the lyre, but was singing about war.

而且，你有一位伟大的战士，他知道如何弹奏七弦琴，但却在歌唱战争。

So, then it became this thing that you could have peace in the recounting of stories of war.

于是，就这样，你可以在讲述战争故事时拥有平静。

And, I felt like it was the argument that we live in all of the time: we talk about video games, we talk about violent movies.

而且，我觉得这就是我们一直生活在其中的争论：我们谈论电子游戏，我们谈论暴力电影。

It was saying that Achilles could be in peace as he sings of war.

据说阿喀琉斯在歌颂战争时可以得到和平。

So, I could be in peace: The Iliad could be about something else besides teaching me how to be angry and how to be violent.

这样，我就可以安心了：《伊利亚特》除了教我如何生气和如何暴力之外，还可以讲别的事情。

Which is one of the arguments that we make about great literature all the time.

这是我们一直以来对伟大文学的争论之一。

And so I thought that that was a beautiful rendition of it, because his peace was only broken when they actually asked him to physically engage in war, and that was the thing that broke his peace.

所以我认为这是一个美丽的演绎，因为只有当他们实际上要求他亲自参与战争时，他的平静才被打破，而这就是打破他平静的事情。

But later on, it was this idea in Chapter 18 when he was getting his shield, I thought it was another reminder, though.

但后来，第18章他拿到盾牌时就是这个想法，不过我认为这是另一个提醒。

That again, you don't go to war without the rest of the world.

再说一遍，如果没有世界其他地方，你就不会发动战争。

When you're carrying this armor into battle that is supposed to protect you, the actual thing that's protecting you, if you're ever protected at all, is this real hope of the best of humanity, which is the realization that you could have all of it juxtaposed.

当你带着这件本应保护你的盔甲投入战斗时，真正保护你的东西，如果你曾经受到过保护的话，是人类最好的真正希望，这是你可以将所有这一切并置的认识。

Patroclus might be one of the most honored characters in the book.

帕特罗克洛斯可能是书中最受尊敬的人物之一。

He was one of the most noble characters in the book.

他是书中最崇高的人物之一。

He was pleading with Achilles to fight and, by my recollection, it never felt--nobody was really was ever fighting for just money.

他恳求阿喀琉斯战斗，据我回忆，从来没有人真正只是为了钱而战。

They sometimes were offended by the, 'I don't need the money right now.' Achilles was, like, 'I don't need the money.

他们有时会因为“我现在不需要钱”而感到生气。阿喀琉斯说，‘我不需要钱。

Let's go fight now.

我们现在就去战斗吧。

I'm in it, I'm in it.'

我在其中，我在其中。

But, like, Patroclus was this honorable dude who really--he stops--when he's on his way to tell Achilles of how bad it's going, he meets a friend that's in a bad way.

但是，帕特罗克洛斯是个值得尊敬的家伙，他真的——他停了下来——当他去告诉阿喀琉斯情况有多糟糕时，他遇到了一个处境很糟糕的朋友。

And, the friend is, like, 'I'm good, just leave me.' He's, like, 'I can't leave you like this.' And, he's a medicine man as well and tries to help this guy, and then has to eventually leave because the war is going so bad that he says, 'I hate to leave you, but I have to leave you to go to Achilles to try to get help.'

而且，朋友会说，“我很好，离开我吧。”他就像是，“我不能就这样离开你。”而且，他也是一名药师，试图帮助这个人，然后最终不得不离开，因为战争变得如此糟糕，他说，“我不想离开你，但我必须离开你去阿喀琉斯寻求帮助。”

But, my point is that I learned that Patroclus killed somebody in a dice game.

但是，我的观点是，我了解到帕特罗克洛斯在骰子游戏中杀了人。

And so, this idea that you don't have to be the sum total of a thing that you did in the past, I think, connects to this idea that Achilles redeemed himself.

因此，我认为，你不必成为你过去所做的事情的总和，这一想法与阿喀琉斯救赎自己的想法有关。

And, part of, for me, what Achilles redeemed himself is how do you apologize for your foolishness?

对我来说，阿喀琉斯救赎自己的一部分是你如何为你的愚蠢道歉？

How do you apologize for your anger?

你如何为你的愤怒道歉？

And, how you do it--him and Agamemnon did it--but how do you do it in a way that acknowledges the power of the gods, but really, really says, 'What kind of fool am I?' And, I actually think that he did it better than Agamemnon in some ways because he was the character who had to reflect on profound loss, and I think the way that he dealt with Priam at the end.

而且，你如何做到这一点——他和阿伽门农做到了——但是你如何以一种承认众神的力量的方式做到这一点，但实际上，真的说，“我是什么样的傻瓜？”而且，我实际上认为他在某些方面比阿伽门农做得更好，因为他是一个必须反思深刻损失的角色，我认为他最后处理普里阿摩斯的方式。

Dwayne Betts: And, he dealt with it--he didn't deal with it out of ignorance.

德韦恩·贝茨：而且，他处理了这件事——他处理这件事并不是出于无知。

He knew that a god had[?] brought him.

他知道是一位神[？]带来了他。

But, he also--everybody believed that he would disobey the gods, so it wasn't as if--it's this point about free will existing in a world in which we know that the gods are acting with reckless, wild abandon on the destruction of the lives of humans.

但是，他也——每个人都相信他会违背众神，所以这并不是——这是关于自由意志存在于一个我们知道众神正在鲁莽、疯狂地毁灭人类生命的世界中的观点。

I thought it was beautiful for that reason, the paired relationship between the two of them and what both of it says about being able to transform your life.

出于这个原因，我认为这很美好，他们两人之间的配对关系以及两者都表明能够改变你的生活。

Russ Roberts: Yeah, and we're going to get to Achilles in a minute.

拉斯·罗伯茨：是的，我们马上就要谈到阿喀琉斯。

I just--I want to tell listeners: if you're reading the book now and you're in the middle of it, in, say, Chapter 14 or Chapter 16 or Chapter 8, keep going.

我只是想告诉听众：如果你现在正在读这本书，并且正读到中间，比如第 14 章、第 16 章或第 8 章，请继续读下去。

The last six chapters or seven chapters, it's as moving as anything you'll ever read.

最后六章或七章，它和你读过的任何东西一样感人。

It's extraordinary.

这是非凡的。

Russ Roberts: And as you alluded to earlier, Dwayne, on the surface this is a dark, bleak book about death and violence.

拉斯·罗伯茨：正如你之前提到的，德维恩，从表面上看，这是一本关于死亡和暴力的黑暗、凄凉的书。

But that's not what it's really about.

但这不是它真正的目的。

It's about pride, and it's about ego, and it's about destiny.

这关乎骄傲，关乎自我，关乎命运。

It's about freedom.

这是关于自由的。

And, it's about recognizing your failings.

而且，这是关于认识到你的失败。

So, part of the last third of the book is Agamemnon and Achilles recognizing that they've been doing this ridiculous feud and it's killed a bunch of their friends, and how trivial and stupid it was.

因此，本书最后三分之一的部分内容是阿伽门农和阿喀琉斯认识到他们一直在进行这种荒谬的争斗，并杀死了他们的一群朋友，这是多么琐碎和愚蠢。

But, when they were in the middle of it, they couldn't recognize it, couldn't admit it, and their ego kept cropping up.

但是，到了中间，他们却认不出来，不承认，我执就不断地出现。

Dwayne Betts: But, you know--oh, go ahead.

Dwayne Betts：但是，你知道——哦，继续吧。

Russ Roberts: The thing I was going to mention earlier is that when you talked about the two speeches being word-for-word, Odysseus does actually kind of mess up the instructions, but he does at one point quote exactly what Agamemnon told him to say.

拉斯·罗伯茨：我之前要提到的是，当你逐字逐句地谈论这两段演讲时，奥德修斯实际上确实搞乱了指示，但他在某一时刻确实引用了阿伽门农告诉他的内容。

And I think the reason is because this book was not written down: it was memorized.

我认为原因是因为这本书没有被写下来：它是被背下来的。

So, when you got to a passage where a character is doing something that was alluded to earlier, it's often going to be literally a transcription--a transcript of the previous set of remarks.

因此，当你读到一个角色正在做之前提到的事情的段落时，它通常实际上是一个转录——前一组言论的转录。

Because, when you want to deliver it out loud and sing it, you want to make sure you got it right; and it made it a lot easier.

因为，当您想大声朗读并演唱时，您需要确保自己唱对了；这让事情变得容易多了。

Dwayne Betts: Yeah.

德韦恩·贝茨：是的。

Yes and no, though, because also something that's really clever that happens as a poet is thinking about the artistry [inaudible 00:38:57].

不过，是的，也不是，因为当诗人思考艺术性时，也会发生一些非常聪明的事情 [听不清 00:38:57]。

So, Odysseus does memorize that part word-for-word, right?

那么，奥德修斯确实逐字逐句地记住了这一部分，对吗？

Dwayne Betts: And then, you say, 'Well, and Agamemnon told him to do it.' So, then he goes to Achilles and tells Achilles; and Achilles is, like, 'Okay.

德韦恩·贝茨：然后，你说，“好吧，阿伽门农告诉他这样做。”于是，他去找阿喀琉斯，告诉阿喀琉斯；阿喀琉斯说，‘好吧。

Well, I need you to tell him exactly what I say word-for-word.' When Odysseus goes back to Agamemnon--

好吧，我需要你一字不漏地告诉他我说的话。当奥德修斯回到阿伽门农身边时——

Dwayne Betts: he does not .

德韦恩·贝茨：他没有。

He's, like, 'I am not repeating any of those things.' He went back and said, 'You know,--'

他说，“我不会重复这些事情。”他回去说，“你知道，——”

Russ Roberts: Yeah, it didn't turn out that way.

拉斯·罗伯茨：是的，结果并非如此。

Dwayne Betts: 'Achilles is still in his anger.

德韦恩·贝茨：“阿喀琉斯仍然处于愤怒之中。

He's still in his anger.

他还在愤怒之中。

I don't think he's going to be at the party.'

我认为他不会参加聚会。

Dwayne Betts: So, I think it's both.

德韦恩·贝茨：所以，我认为两者都是。

But also think it's this way in--and I think it was about Odysseus' belief that the two of them would do the right thing at some point.

但也认为是这样的——我认为这是奥德修斯相信他们两个会在某个时刻做正确的事情。

And, he was, like, 'I will tell you exactly what Agamemnon says.' He didn't say the part about he has to bend his knees to Agamemnon, though.

而且，他说，“我会准确地告诉你阿伽门农所说的话。”不过，他没有说他必须向阿伽门农屈服。

Dwayne Betts: No, he said everything except that one line.

德韦恩·贝茨：不，除了那句话之外，他什么都说了。

Dwayne Betts: 'I'm going to leave this little part out, I won't say that.'

德韦恩·贝茨 (Dwayne Betts)：“我将忽略这一小部分，我不会这么说。”

So, I also thought that--I don't know, I've often heard people talk about Don Quixote as being the birth of the novel.

所以我也想——我不知道，我经常听人说《堂吉诃德》是小说的诞生。

It's something about The Iliad being such an old story that's refreshing and surprising because you see how embedded within it is so much of the ways in which we still tell stories now.

《伊利亚特》是一个如此古老的故事，它令人耳目一新，令人惊讶，因为你会看到我们现在仍然讲故事的方式是如何嵌入其中的。

Dwayne Betts: And, I do think that all of the mnemonic devices--but we use those even when we do them with just phrases and things like that.

德韦恩·贝茨：而且，我确实认为所有的助记手段——但即使我们只使用短语和类似的东西，我们也会使用这些手段。

I think that we're always telling ourselves how to remember the story of our lives.

我认为我们总是告诉自己如何记住我们生活的故事。

And, for real, this for me is a beautiful model because the hardest thing I think for us to do is when we, in our moments of suffering, or sorrow, or struggle, to remember that our lives are still yoked to the lives of a whole lot of others.

事实上，这对我来说是一个美丽的模型，因为我认为对我们来说最难做的事情就是当我们在痛苦、悲伤或挣扎的时刻记住，我们的生活仍然与很多其他人的生活联系在一起。

And, I think that's one of the things that I walked away from reading the book, being immersed in it for three days, is how interconnected all of these lives were.

而且，我认为这就是我读完这本书并沉浸在其中三天后所离开的事情之一，那就是所有这些生活是如何相互关联的。

Even the lives of the gods, they couldn't exist, really, without these humans who they kept entangling themselves with.

即使是神的生命，如果没有这些不断纠缠的人类，他们也无法存在。

Russ Roberts: I want to read a passage about mortality and mercy.

拉斯·罗伯茨：我想读一篇关于死亡和怜悯的文章。

It kind of illuminates Achilles' character.

这在某种程度上阐明了阿喀琉斯的性格。

It's not a very flattering portrait.

这不是一个非常讨人喜欢的肖像。

And, again, I want to come back in a little bit and we'll talk about why I think Achilles redeems himself.

再说一次，我想稍后再回来，我们将讨论为什么我认为阿基里斯会自我救赎。

But, in this scene, Achilles stumbles on a character called Lycaon.

但是，在这个场景中，阿喀琉斯偶然发现了一个名叫利卡翁的角色。

Lycaon is a son of Priam, like Hector.

吕卡翁（Lycaon）是普里阿摩斯（Priam）的儿子，就像赫克托耳一样。

I think Priam has 50 or so sons: he's got a lot of--they're all part-brothers to each other, most of them.

我认为普里阿摩斯有大约 50 个儿子：他有很多——他们中的大多数都是同父异母的兄弟。

And, it turns out, Achilles has already captured him once before in a previous war and has shipped him off to slavery, but he escapes.

事实证明，阿喀琉斯在之前的一场战争中已经俘获过他一次，并将他送去当奴隶，但他逃脱了。

And now, to his very bad misfortune, is captured again when Achilles is in a very different mood.

而现在，不幸的是，当阿喀琉斯的心情完全不同时，他又被俘虏了。

And, Lycaon first points out that even though he's Hector's half-brother, he's only a half -brother--because they have different mothers.

并且，莱卡翁首先指出，尽管他是赫克托的同父异母兄弟，但他只是同父异母的兄弟 - 因为他们有不同的母亲。

And he says, 'Don't kill me.

他说：‘别杀我。

I'm not from the same womb as Hector who killed your friend, your strong, gentle friend.' Meaning, 'Okay, I'm related to Hector, but at least we had different mothers.' And, Achilles' response is--he also offers him money.

我和赫克托不是同一个子宫里的人，赫克托杀死了你的朋友，你坚强、温柔的朋友。意思是，“好吧，我和赫克托有亲戚关系，但至少我们有不同的母亲。”而且，阿基里斯的回应是——他还给他钱。

He says, 'Let me go, I'll pay you off.' This is another constant theme that very rarely works.

他说：“放我走吧，我会还钱给你。”这是另一个很少奏效的永恒主题。

It obviously depends on the circumstances.

这显然取决于具体情况。

But in this case Achilles is not interested.

但对于这种情况，阿喀琉斯不感兴趣。

Here's his response to the plea of Lycaon for mercy [from Book 21].

以下是他对吕卡翁求饶的回应（摘自第 21 卷）。

So he's basically saying, 'You're done.'

所以他基本上是在说：“你完成了。”

And, here's the part I think is just so haunting.

而且，这就是我认为令人难以忘怀的部分。

He says:

他说：

It's just unbelievable.

这真是令人难以置信。

Achilles--and then, he kills him really gruesomely, by the way, which I won't read.

阿喀琉斯——然后，他非常残忍地杀了他，顺便说一句，我不会读到这一点。

So, Achilles is--he's a death machine at this point.

所以，阿喀琉斯现在是——他是一台死亡机器。

But it doesn't stop him from saying--he says, "Come, friend, you too must die.

但这并不能阻止他说——他说：“来吧，朋友，你也必须死。

Why moan about it so?"

为何如此抱怨？”

So, he calls him 'friend,' insight I got from George Steiner when he writes about this book, this passage in his book Errata , E-R-R-A-T-A.

所以，他称他为“朋友”，这是我从乔治·斯坦纳（George Steiner）写这本书时得到的见解，他的《勘误表》（E-R-R-A-T-A）中的这段文字。

So, he addresses him as friend.

所以，他称呼他为朋友。

But, by what right does he have to call this man he's about to slaughter his 'friend'?

但是，他有什么资格称这个即将屠杀他的人为‘朋友’呢？

And, I think the way I read it is they're both mortal: they're both going to die.

而且，我认为我读到的方式是他们都是凡人：他们都会死。

Okay, so this time, Lycaon is going to die first.

好吧，所以这一次，莱卡翁要先死。

There's no reason to moan about it.

没有理由为此抱怨。

It's inevitable.

这是不可避免的。

We're humans; we're all going to die.

我们是人类；我们都会死。

And so, he's saying, 'Come, friend, you too must die.

所以，他说，‘来吧，朋友，你也必须死。

We share this.'

我们分享这一点。

And, then, of course, he says: 'Just to prove my point, Patroclus died and he's better than you are.

然后，当然，他说：“为了证明我的观点，帕特洛克罗斯死了，他比你更好。”

So, how are you going to justify your surviving?

那么，你要如何证明你的生存是合理的呢？

And, even I'm going to die, who is: 'the son of a great man; the mother who gave me life a deathless goddess.'

而且，即使是我也会死，我是：“伟人的儿子；”母亲给了我生命，一位不朽的女神。”

What an incredible line.

多么令人难以置信的线条啊。

Just the writing, it just is so good.

光是写文，就已经写得很好了。

Dwayne Betts: And, you know, and the wild thing about that is that the characters do get differentially aided in those ways.

德韦恩·贝茨：而且，你知道，最疯狂的事情是角色确实以这些方式得到了不同的帮助。

Like, Achilles has a kind of self-awareness, Menelaus has a kind of self-awareness, Diomedes has a kind of self-awareness that some of the characters actually lack.

比如，阿喀琉斯有一种自我意识，墨涅拉俄斯有一种自我意识，狄俄墨得斯有一种自我意识，而有些角色实际上缺乏这种自我意识。

And, you can see that he believed that he could bribe Achilles on the battlefield.

而且，你可以看到他相信他可以在战场上贿赂阿喀琉斯。

There's several people who think that they're going to bribe their way to surviving, and it's, like: Why would you believe that this is going to happen?

有几个人认为他们要通过贿赂才能生存，就像：你为什么相信这会发生？

Yeah, I think that that was one.

是的，我想那就是其中之一。

But, also, that set up the turn that happens in the end, because you could just see Achilles as heartless, as brutal, as fully, fully committed to rage, and then you see him soften.

但是，这也设置了最终发生的转变，因为你可以看到阿喀琉斯无情，残忍，完全，完全致力于愤怒，然后你看到他软化了。

And I think that scene right there is the setup for returning Hector's body, because that what makes it feel wildly more authentic.

我认为那个场景是为了归还赫克托的尸体而设置的，因为这让它感觉更加真实。

I actually thought he was going to let him go.

其实我以为他会放他走。

Priam's son Lycaon, what he was saying sounded compelling to me.

普里阿摩斯的儿子吕卡翁，他所说的话对我来说听起来很有吸引力。

I thought, 'Oh, you did save him once.' So, I thought Achilles was going to be, like, 'You know what, I'm going to send you back to your dad since your half-brothers ain't coming.' He was, like, 'Nah, this is not going to work.

我想，‘哦，你确实救过他一次。’所以，我以为阿喀琉斯会说，‘你知道吗，我会把你送回你父亲身边，因为你同父异母的兄弟不会来。’他说，‘不，这行不通。

You're not going to patronize me.

你不会光顾我的。

I know you didn't bring up my friend's name to save your life.

我知道你提起我朋友的名字不是为了救你的命。

This will not work.'

这是行不通的。

Russ Roberts: Yeah.

拉斯·罗伯茨：是的。

Let's talk a little bit about the softening of Achilles.

我们来谈谈跟腱软化的一些情况。

Before we do that, I want to give an insight that I got from Ido Hevroni that didn't make it into the recording of the first episode we did.

在此之前，我想先介绍一下我从 Ido Hevroni 那里得到的见解，但这一见解并未出现在我们第一集的录制中。

Which is that we hate Achilles.

这就是我们讨厌的阿喀琉斯。

He's horrible.

他太可怕了。

He's selfish.

他很自私。

He's merciless.

他是无情的。

As you say, we're going to learn his mercilessness has a redemptive change: he changes.

正如你所说，我们将了解到他的无情有一个救赎性的改变：他改变了。

But in the first part of the book, he seems incredibly selfish.

但在书的第一部分，他似乎非常自私。

He's letting his friends die for his ego because he's in a feud with Agamemnon.

他让他的朋友为他的自负而死，因为他与阿伽门农不和。

But, talking to Ido, he points out that--and I can't believe I didn't see this.

但是，在与 Ido 交谈时，他指出了这一点——我不敢相信我没有看到这一点。

Dwayne, maybe you saw it.

德韦恩，也许你看到了。

Their feud is because Agamemnon takes his woman, Briseis, that he'd earned in battle.

他们的不和是因为阿伽门农夺走了他在战斗中赢得的女人布里塞伊斯。

And, you'd think, 'Well, isn't that a little bit petty?' Your commander steals what you think you're entitled to.

而且，你可能会想，“好吧，这不是有点小气吗？”你的指挥官偷走了你认为你有权得到的东西。

Okay, fine, you're annoyed, you're angry.

好吧，好吧，你生气了，你生气了。

But, you're going to let your friends die?

但是，你要让你的朋友去死吗？

In fact, you're going to demand from the gods that your friends be killed?

事实上，你会要求众神杀死你的朋友吗？

Your comrades?

你的战友们？

So, he's very dislikable in the first part of the book.

所以，他在本书的第一部分非常令人讨厌。

But, Ido points out--which I can't believe I didn't see it--is that Agamemnon is doing exactly what Paris did.

但是，伊多指出——我不敢相信我没有看到这一点——阿伽门农正在做的正是巴黎所做的事情。

So, the Greeks go to war to avenge this grotesque act of Paris to steal the wife of Menelaus.

于是，希腊人发动战争，为帕里斯偷走墨涅拉俄斯妻子的荒唐行为报仇。

And here's Agamemnon, doing the same thing.

阿伽门农也在做同样的事情。

He's stealing the woman of Achilles because he thinks he'd like to have her.

他偷走了阿喀琉斯的女人，因为他认为他想拥有她。

She's very attractive, and very skilled, and has great crafts; and she's a great, attractive trophy.

她非常漂亮，而且技艺高超，手艺精湛；她是一个伟大而有吸引力的奖杯。

And, that's what Paris did.

而且，巴黎就是这么做的。

So, what Achilles is saying is that, 'I'm out, I'm done.

所以，阿喀琉斯想说的是，‘我出局了，我完了。

This is unacceptable.

这是不可接受的。

This is not a petty emotional thing.

这不是一件感情上的小事。

You've lost your credibility as my commander.'

你已经失去了作为我的指挥官的信誉。

Russ Roberts: 'We went to war over an injustice; you're doing the same injustice.' Which, of course, happens in war all the time, right?

拉斯·罗伯茨：“我们因不公正而开战；你也在做同样的不公正的事。当然，这种情况在战争中经常发生，对吧？

Both sides inevitably, no matter who thinks they have the more moral cause, do things that are inhuman, that are cruel beyond words.

双方都不可避免地，无论谁认为自己有更道德的理由，都会做出不人道、难以言表的残忍的事情。

And so, Achilles has just lost his--for him, Agamemnon's lost his credibility as his commander.

因此，阿喀琉斯刚刚失去了他的——对他来说，阿伽门农失去了作为指挥官的信誉。

It's a great, great insight.

这是一个伟大的、伟大的见解。

Dwayne Betts: And, it's another passage early on where you wonder if it's self-serving of Achilles when he says it, but he goes into this whole riff about why they can't convince him to fight.

德韦恩·贝茨：而且，这是早期的另一段话，你想知道阿基里斯说这句话时是否是自私的，但他反复讲述了为什么他们不能说服他去战斗。

And he said, 'We're all here to serve in a fight and to die.' He actually explains it.

他说：“我们都是来参加战斗并赴死的。”他实际上解释了这一点。

He says, 'If we're not going to follow the rules, if we're not going to have honor, then I'm not going to be involved in it anymore.'

他说，“如果我们不遵守规则，如果我们不享有荣誉，那么我就不会再参与其中。”

So, I actually, because I know that Achilles dies in the end, one of the reasons why I was compelled by him from the first page is that I really do think that he was forcing himself to stand on principle, independent of the carnage his standing on principle was going to create.

所以，实际上，因为我知道阿喀琉斯最终死了，所以我从第一页就被他强迫的原因之一是，我确实认为他强迫自己坚持原则，独立于他坚持原则将造成的屠杀。

Dwayne Betts: And, I think that he knew he wasn't going to make it home from the very beginning.

德韦恩·贝茨：而且，我认为他从一开始就知道自己无法回家。

I think that one difference in Troy , the movie with Brad Pitt, and reading this that I found profoundly unsettling was that Achilles put the armor on Patroclus.

我认为布拉德·皮特主演的电影《特洛伊》的一个不同之处是阿喀琉斯给帕特罗克洛斯穿上了盔甲，读到这篇文章我感到非常不安。

Dwayne Betts: Because in the movie, Patroclus sneaks out.

德韦恩·贝茨：因为在电影中，帕特洛​​克罗斯偷偷溜了出去。

And, what you find is that Achilles, the overwhelming grief he feels, it's also part and parcel because it was his decision to make.

而且，你发现阿喀琉斯感受到了巨大的悲伤，这也是重要的一部分，因为这是他做出的决定。

Dwayne Betts: And, I feel like that was also a part of, for me, the arc of his character.

德韦恩·贝茨：而且，我觉得这对我来说也是他性格弧线的一部分。

He was trying to be principled.

他试图保持原则性。

He was trying to say, 'I told you that I wasn't going to fight, but this is what I could do.' And, it worked; and he was being a strategist and he was trying to abide by his principles.

他想说的是，“我告诉过你我不会打架，但这就是我能做的。”而且，它起作用了；他是一名战略家，他努力遵守自己的原则。

And you could see, Agamemnon, at the end, he was, like, 'Everything is over now and Patroclus is dead.

你可以看到，阿伽门农，最后，他就像是，‘现在一切都结束了，帕特罗克洛斯死了。

I realize that I wasn't valuing the thing that I should have valued the most.' Which, incidentally, is the thing that they all end up going back to before they die: it's the families that they left behind.

我意识到我没有珍惜我最应该珍惜的东西。顺便说一句，这是他们在死前最终都会回到的地方：那就是他们留下的家人。

Everybody is evoking the family and the life that was independent of the spoils of war.

每个人都在唤起家庭和独立于战利品的生活。

And so, it was also this interesting narrative of what matters most.

因此，这也是对最重要的事情的有趣叙述。

On the front end, they talk about the spoils and the riches.

在前端，他们谈论战利品和财富。

But, when your head is smashed in, when you're mourning your good friend--and everybody has good friends.

但是，当你的头被撞坏时，当你哀悼你的好朋友时——每个人都有好朋友。

It's not isolated to the Argives; it's not isolated to the Trojans.

它并不孤立于阿尔戈斯人；它与特洛伊木马无关。

The Achaeans have great friendships, too.

亚该亚人也有着深厚的友谊。

And so, you see that at the end, the thing that's most lost is the joy that comes from having a great friendship.

所以，你看到最后，最失去的就是拥有一段伟大的友谊所带来的快乐。

That is the thing that's most profound about Achilles' loss: it's not even the woman that he claimed in war.

这就是阿喀琉斯之死最深刻的一点：甚至不是他在战争中夺走的那个女人。

Which also kind of puts the lie to his anger around it.

这也让他的愤怒变得谎言。

Even Helen is constantly saying, 'I wish I would have died those 20 years ago.

就连海伦也经常说，‘我希望我早在 20 年前就死了’。

I wish I hadn't come here.' It's the kind of frivolousness of the frailty of human decisions that create all of the disorder that exists in the book and the inescapability of the frailty of human decision-making.

我希望我没有来这里。正是人类决策的脆弱性的轻率造成了书中存在的所有混乱以及人类决策的脆弱性的不可避免。

That's also one of the lessons of the book, I think, is that humans are fallible and you have to keep going.

我认为这也是这本书的教训之一，那就是人类会犯错，但你必须继续前进。

I feel like that's one of the lessons of the whole book, is you have to keep trying to figure it out.

我觉得这是整本书的教训之一，就是你必须不断尝试弄清楚。

Russ Roberts: Now let's talk about the softening of Achilles.

拉斯·罗伯茨：现在我们来谈谈跟腱的软化。

So, the first softening, obviously, is he weeps constantly after Patroclus is killed.

因此，显然，他的第一个软化是在帕特罗克洛斯被杀后不断哭泣。

He weeps over the body, he weeps--he's in despair.

他对着尸体哭泣，他哭泣——他绝望了。

And he's the toughest guy in the world, right?

他是世界上最坚强的人，对吗？

He's the strongest, toughest, scariest, manliest man, but he weeps uncontrollably, page after page.

他是最坚强、最坚强、最可怕、最有男子气概的人，但他却一页一页地无法控制地哭泣。

So, that's the first thing.

所以，这是第一件事。

And then, this whole thing about Hector's body, which I was totally unprepared for.

然后，关于赫克托身体的整件事，我完全没有准备好。

So, I know he's going to give it back, but I just assumed that Priam is going to make the case and come visit him, and Achilles is going to feel sorry for him.

所以，我知道他会归还它，但我只是假设普里阿摩斯会提出理由并来看望他，而阿喀琉斯会为他感到难过。

Before we do that, by the way, there's this absurd chapter where they have these--it's so beautiful--but I felt like the whole pace of the book slows down in the last 25%.

顺便说一句，在我们这样做之前，有一个荒谬的章节，他们有这些——它是如此美丽——但我觉得这本书的整体节奏在最后 25% 变慢了。

So, Patroclus, when they bury him--I think they burn him on a funeral pyre--but they have these games.

所以，帕特罗克洛斯，当他们埋葬他时——我想他们把他烧在火葬柴堆上——但他们有这些游戏。

They have this weird interregnum where they compete against each other in this really sweet and honorable way.

他们有一个奇怪的空位期，他们以这种非常甜蜜和光荣的方式相互竞争。

And Achilles is doling out all these incredible prizes: animals, and livestock, and tripods, which are these bronze things for holding kettles on to cook, which are really important and hard to make.

阿喀琉斯正在分发所有这些令人难以置信的奖品：动物、牲畜和三脚架，这些青铜器是用来固定水壶做饭的，非常重要且难以制造。

I had trouble figuring that out.

我很难弄清楚这一点。

I had to ask Claude, 'Why were they all into tripods?

我不得不问克劳德，‘为什么他们都用三脚架？

What does that mean?' Well, they were important.

这意味着什么？'嗯，它们很重要。

So, they had these weird funeral games, which is a whole chapter--

所以，他们玩了这些奇怪的葬礼游戏，这是一整章——

Dwayne Betts: That's why they had cameras--

德韦恩·贝茨：这就是为什么他们有摄像机——

Russ Roberts: I don't think so.

拉斯·罗伯茨：我不这么认为。

They have these weird games.

他们有这些奇怪的游戏。

And then, Priam wants to get his son's body back, and Achilles has no interest in returning it.

然后，普里阿摩斯想要拿回儿子的尸体，而阿喀琉斯却没有兴趣归还。

And, this gets back to your question about free will and human impulse.

而且，这又回到了你关于自由意志和人类冲动的问题。

The gods kind of say, 'We can't have this.

众神会说，‘我们不能拥有这个。

This cannot be, that Hector is going to keep being dragged around and his father and mother are not going to get to bury him.'

这是不可能的，赫克托将继续被拖着走，而他的父母将无法埋葬他。

So, the gods set up a negotiation.

于是，众神安排了一场谈判。

They work on Priam.

他们在普里阿摩斯上工作。

Priam's afraid to go, by the way.

顺便说一句，普里阿摩斯不敢去。

He's go to go visit Achilles' tent, which could be suicidal because he's going to get murdered, killed by the Greeks.

他要去参观阿喀琉斯的帐篷，这可能是自杀，因为他会被希腊人谋杀、杀害。

So, they assure him they're going to protect him, and how that works out is so cinematic.

所以，他们向他保证他们会保护他，而结果是如此的电影化。

He gets a secret god--I forget now who it is--to escort him and fake them out for a while.

他得到了一个秘密的神——我现在忘了是谁了——来护送他并暂时欺骗他们。

It's an amazing scene.

这是一个令人惊奇的场景。

Russ Roberts: Yeah, it's Hermes.

拉斯·罗伯茨：是的，是赫尔墨斯。

And then, the gods go to Achilles and say, 'You know, I know you're really mad about your friend, but you got to give Hector's body back.' I think he resists it at first, but ultimately, on the surface, it's very disappointing.

然后，诸神去找阿喀琉斯说：“你知道，我知道你真的对你的朋友很生气，但你必须归还赫克托的身体。”我认为他一开始会抗拒，但最终，从表面上看，这非常令人失望。

The gods compel Priam and Achilles to this reconciliation.

诸神迫使普里阿摩斯和阿喀琉斯和解。

And I thought, 'Well, that's going to take all the emotion of it.' Because, they're not really acting freely.

我想，‘好吧，这会带走所有的情感。’因为，他们并不是真正自由行动。

They're under the pressure of the gods.

他们承受着诸神的压力。

And, instead, it becomes one of the most extraordinary scenes in the book and, of course, in literature.

相反，它成为书中最非凡的场景之一，当然也是文学中最非凡的场景之一。

Despite the role of the gods, their encounter is so human.

尽管扮演的是众神的角色，但他们的遭遇却如此人性化。

It doesn't feel coerced.

不觉得有被胁迫的感觉。

They have an incredible--it's not even a bond.

他们之间有着令人难以置信的联系——这甚至不是一种纽带。

It's not like Achilles feels sorry for--it's hard to explain.

阿喀琉斯并没有为此感到遗憾——这很难解释。

They connect with each other as human beings and in this recognition of tragedy, and sorrow, and despair.

他们作为人类彼此联系在一起，并认识到悲剧、悲伤和绝望。

It's just extraordinary.

这真是非同寻常。

And I've just got to say one more thing, and then I want you to talk about your reaction to it.

我还要再说一件事，然后我想让你谈谈你对此的反应。

The role of food and hospitality is so ever-present in the book, and especially in this encounter between Priam and Achilles.

食物和款待的作用在书中始终存在，尤其是在普里阿摩斯和阿喀琉斯之间的相遇中。

They break bread together.

他们一起掰面包。

Right?

正确的？

They're enemies.

他们是敌人。

They're enemies to the death.

他们是生死之敌。

And worse, Achilles has killed this man's son.

更糟糕的是，阿基里斯杀死了这个人的儿子。

And, yet, they create this unbelievable bond with the--

然而，他们与——

Dwayne Betts: No, no, no, no. Achilles has killed multiple--

德韦恩·贝茨：不，不，不，不。阿喀琉斯杀死了多个——

Dwayne Betts: Achilles has killed multiple of this man's sons.

德韦恩·贝茨：阿基里斯杀死了这个人的多个儿子。

Dwayne Betts: He's killed at least six of his sons, yo.

德韦恩·贝茨：他至少杀了他的六个儿子，哟。

Russ Roberts: Yeah, true.

拉斯·罗伯茨：是的，确实如此。

True.

真的。

And yet, somehow, they have this extraordinary encounter.

然而，不知何故，他们有了这次非凡的邂逅。

Dwayne Betts: I want to say two things.

德韦恩·贝茨：我想说两件事。

One, remember that Hermes posed as Achilles' right-hand man when he went to Priam.

第一，请记住，赫尔墨斯在阿喀琉斯前往普里阿摩斯时冒充他的得力助手。

Dwayne Betts: Which also says something different about honor.

德韦恩·贝茨：这也说明了荣誉的不同之处。

It also says something different about what does it mean to expect kindness and generosity, even from a stranger.

它还说明了期待善意和慷慨的含义，即使是来自陌生人。

Even to such a degree that the stranger is connected--like, Achilles might grant you mercy, but why would you believe that his right-hand man would do the same thing?

即使陌生人之间的联系达到了这种程度——就像阿喀琉斯可能会给你怜悯，但你为什么会相信他的得力助手也会做同样的事情呢？

He might kill you on the spot.

他可能会当场杀掉你。

He might believe that--

他可能相信——

Dwayne Betts: you have something nefarious plan.

德韦恩·贝茨：你有一些邪恶的计划。

So, that was one point.

所以，这是一点。

But, what I thought, because I read this, it's Father's Day weekend.

但是，我想，因为我读到了这篇文章，今天是父亲节周末。

Dwayne Betts: And, in a real way, you have so many--the life expectancy rate of Black men in America is tragically low anyway.

德韦恩·贝茨：实际上，美国黑人的预期寿命非常低。

And, I'm dealing with thinking about a friend of mine who passed younger than he might have.

而且，我正在思考我的一个朋友，他去世时比他可能的年龄要年轻。

But also I've been obsessed with early death since I was young because I went to prison as a kid.

但我从小就对早死很着迷，因为我小时候进过监狱。

But, this book is really the lives of a lot of older men who lived to be seniors and a lot of young men who didn't make it.

但是，这本书确实讲述了许多活到老年的老人和许多未能成功的年轻人的生活。

And, these men are all engaged in the death--in the death sport.

而且，这些人都在从事死亡——死亡运动。

So, it's this constant awareness.

所以，这就是这种持续的意识。

And, what I thought was compelling about the end is that when Priam was trying to convince Achilles to let his son go, he said [Book 24, lines 570+],

而且，我认为结局最引人注目的是，当普里阿摩斯试图说服阿喀琉斯放他的儿子时，他说[第 24 册，第 570 行以上]，

And, what I found beautiful about Priam is that he was able to go to Achilles and not lose his dignity by invoking, I think, the idea of fatherhood and the idea that Achilles knew that he wasn't going to leave Troy.

而且，我发现普里阿摩斯的美妙之处在于，他能够走向阿喀琉斯，而不会因为援引父亲的观念和阿喀琉斯知道他不会离开特洛伊的观念而失去尊严。

But also, Achilles, like, Patroclus was like his brother, his son, you know what I mean?

而且，阿喀琉斯，帕特罗克洛斯就像他的兄弟，他的儿子，你明白我的意思吗？

He was his best friend.

他是他最好的朋友。

And so, it was this notion that I think he remarked on, this twin loss that Achilles was feeling.

所以，我认为他评论的正是这个概念，阿喀琉斯感受到的双重损失。

He wouldn't be able to raise his sons and have the life that Priam had.

他将无法抚养他的儿子并拥有普里阿摩斯那样的生活。

But, also, given that Priam had it, why would you deny the man to have something that you know your father was about to be denied, because you knew you were doomed not to leave the shores of Troy?

但是，既然普里阿摩斯拥有它，你为什么要否认这个人拥有你知道你父亲将要被拒绝的东西，因为你知道你注定不能离开特洛伊海岸？

Or you hope you would leave and be buried with Patroclus?

或者你希望你离开并与帕特罗克洛斯一起埋葬？

So, that's what I found really moving.

所以，这就是我真正感动的地方。

I found that what does the duties of

我发现什么是职责

Which is the last two lines of Robert Hayden's "Those Winter Sundays." But, I think that that moment for Priam captures that: "What did I know, what did I know / of love's austere and lonely offices?" Like, how do you know what the duty of love is?

这是罗伯特·海登的《那些冬天的星期日》的最后两行。但是，我认为普里阿摩斯的那一刻抓住了这一点：“我知道什么，我知道什么/爱的简朴和孤独的办公室？”比如，你怎么知道爱的责任是什么？

And, Priam could not have expected--he says it: 'Look at me, I have wept on the feet of the man who murdered my son, I've kissed the hands of the man who murdered my son.' I just he put us in a whole different state of what fathers do for their sons, even to the point of they're already gone, but you still have to be a father.

普里阿摩斯没想到——他说：“看看我，我在谋杀我儿子的人的脚上哭泣，我亲吻了谋杀我儿子的人的手。”我只是他让我们处于一种与父亲为儿子所做的完全不同的状态，甚至到了他们已经去世的地步，但你仍然必须成为一名父亲。

I think that might be why I found it particularly beautiful, to read it at this particular time of year.

我想这可能就是为什么我觉得它特别美丽，在一年中的这个特定时间阅读它。

Russ Roberts: You mentioned the Hayden poem "Those Winter Sundays." Just read those, say those last two lines slowly.

拉斯·罗伯茨：你提到了海登的诗《那些冬天的星期日》。读这些，慢慢地说最后两行。

That poem is about a boy who can't understand--his father's not a warm man.

那首诗写的是一个无法理解的男孩——他的父亲不是一个温暖的人。

He's a harsh man.

他是个严厉的人。

And he assumes that lack of warmth says something about what his father feels.

他认为缺乏温暖反映了他父亲的感受。

And, of course, he's wrong.

当然，他错了。

He doesn't understand, he can't understand what his father feels.

他不明白，他无法理解父亲的感受。

What are those last two lines again?

最后两行又是什么？

Dwayne Betts: "What did I know, what did I know / of love's austere and lonely offices?"

德韦恩·贝茨：“我知道什么，我知道什么/爱的简朴和孤独的办公室？”

Russ Roberts: And of course, we're all somewhat ignorant of--I love that line, I've always loved that poem--"love's lonely offices." As if it's a place to go to work and do your duty, and you get repaid, even though it's lonely.

拉斯·罗伯茨：当然，我们都有点无知——我喜欢这句话，我一直喜欢那首诗——“爱是孤独的办公室”。就好像这是一个工作、履行职责的地方，即使很孤独，你也会得到回报。

But, yeah, fathers and--

但是，是的，父亲们还有——

Dwayne Betts: Though, The Iliad reminds you that sometimes you don't get repaid.

德韦恩·贝茨：不过，《伊利亚特》提醒你，有时你不会得到回报。

That's the tragedy of it.

这就是它的悲剧。

And, I actually think that the son writing about the father is also thinking about the fact that you don't get paid, because sometimes the very people who should see your generosity in your love and what you've done.

而且，我实际上认为儿子写下父亲也在考虑你没有得到报酬的事实，因为有时那些人应该在你的爱和你所做的事情中看到你的慷慨。

Priam is constantly concerned with that about all of his sons, including Paris.

普里阿摩斯一直关心他所有儿子的情况，包括帕里斯。

His sons have literally brought ruin to the family--all but Hector.

他的儿子们确实给这个家庭带来了毁灭——除了赫克托之外。

Which is also one of the deeply profound reasons why he's distraught, because he is, in some way, an honest man, constantly telling his sons how they are just, like, not good human beings, and that's why he's so disappointed in them and devastated with Hector's death.

这也是他心烦意乱的深层原因之一，因为在某种程度上，他是一个诚实的人，不断地告诉他的儿子们，他们只是，不是好人，这就是为什么他对他们如此失望，并对赫克托的死感到震惊。

But, I also just think that--we say you can't know, except literature gives you some kind of sense of it.

但是，我也只是认为——我们说你不可能知道，除非文学给你某种感觉。

Reading that end, it gave me a sense of the lonely office of fatherhood when--I have a friend whose father, a friend of mine, he got arrested and he got sentenced to some time in prison.

读到这个结尾，它给了我一种作为父亲的孤独的感觉——我有一个朋友，他的父亲，我的一个朋友，被捕了，被判入狱一段时间。

And, he had an option to get out early.

而且，他可以选择提前退出。

And he was going to the hearing, and his father came and testified in front of the judge.

他要去参加听证会，他的父亲来了，在法官面前作证。

And, he talks about--my friend wrote an essay about it, Randall Horton.

而且，他谈到——我的朋友兰德尔·霍顿（Randall Horton）写了一篇关于它的文章。

And, he talks about his father weeping and getting emotional, but essentially pleading for his life.

而且，他谈到他的父亲哭泣并变得情绪化，但本质上是在恳求饶他一命。

And, it's literally, 'Oh, I never thought of it this way.' But, it is a modern rendition of what Priam did.

而且，从字面上看，“哦，我从来没有这样想过。”但是，这是普里阿摩斯所作所为的现代演绎。

It's like: 'My son is not innocent.' This is not why I'm here.

就像：“我的儿子并不无辜。”这不是我来这里的原因。

This is not the conversation that we're having.

这不是我们正在进行的对话。

We're having a conversation about what a man deserves that is independent of the marker of guilt.

我们正在讨论一个人应得的东西，这与是否有罪无关。

What mercy does a man deserve?

一个人值得什么样的怜悯？

And, I think that's why I found myself deeply moved by it, because you can learn from hearing the story.

而且，我想这就是为什么我发现自己被它深深感动，因为你可以从听这个故事中学到东西。

I think, in some ways, the whole point of the story, even when a story tells you, 'You cannot know unless you've been here,' the story's actually trying to give you a clue.

我认为，在某些方面，故事的全部要点，即使一个故事告诉你，“除非你来过这里，否则你无法知道”，这个故事实际上是在试图给你一个线索。

No, actually, you do know because now you have been here.

不，实际上，你确实知道，因为现在你已经来过这里了。

For three days, I was on a battlefield in Troy, wondering who would survive.

三天来，我在特洛伊的战场上，想知道谁能活下来。

And, strangely, even though I know the story, it was still able to surprise me again and again because Homer got to choose when the story would end.

而且，奇怪的是，即使我知道这个故事，它仍然能够一次又一次地让我感到惊讶，因为荷马必须选择故事何时结束。

And so, when you read all of those other iterations, you'd forget that you haven't read this one, which is making all kinds of decisions that changes the texture of your emotional response to the book.

因此，当你阅读所有其他迭代时，你会忘记你还没有读过这本书，它正在做出各种决定，改变你对这本书的情绪反应的纹理。

I didn't know it was such a book about fathers and sons and how fraught it is to try to become a man in a world within the shadow of your history.

我不知道这是一本关于父子的书，也不知道在一个历史阴影下的世界里试图成为一个男人是多么令人忧心忡忡。

Russ Roberts: Yeah.

拉斯·罗伯茨：是的。

One of the stranger aspects of this book--which you mentioned in passing, and I think we talked about it in the first episode of the conversation--Hector just is totally disgusted by Paris.

这本书中一个奇怪的方面——你顺便提到过，我想我们在谈话的第一集中讨论过——赫克托对巴黎完全厌恶。

For provoking this, and then for failing to fight at the level of intensity that he thinks he needs to, for being the first cause of the whole problem.

因为他挑起了这件事，然后因为他未能按照他认为需要的强度进行战斗，因为他是整个问题的首要原因。

But, I don't think--and this I hadn't thought of until you talked about it--I don't think Priam ever reprimands Paris.

但是，我不认为——在你谈到这件事之前我没有想到这一点——我不认为普里阿摩斯曾经谴责过帕里斯。

Hector is his half-brother; Hector reprimands him constantly in the first part of the book.

赫克托是他同父异母的兄弟；赫克托在书的第一部分不断地斥责他。

But, Priam never says, 'You know, maybe you ought to give that woman back.

但是，普里阿摩斯从来没有说过，‘你知道，也许你应该把那个女人还给她。

Maybe you made a mistake.' He accepts this war, which is horrible, as his destiny.

也许你犯了一个错误。他接受这场可怕的战争作为他的命运。

Even though it's his son who provokes it, he never tries to fix it.

即使是儿子挑起的，他也从来没有试图去解决。

I don't know whether we should judge him for that, but he just accepts it.

我不知道我们是否应该因此评判他，但他只是接受了。

There is a scene, it takes about four lines or so, and Helen makes a very brief appearance at the beginning of the book.

有一个场景，大约需要四行左右，海伦在书的开头非常简短地露面。

And, a bunch of guys say, 'Yeah, I guess I can understand why you'd go to war for her or go to war to try to get her back.' The line from--it's from a play by Christopher Marlowe--when he says about Helen, 'Is this the face that launched a thousand ships and burned--'

而且，一群人说，“是的，我想我能理解为什么你会为了她而战，或者为了让她回来而战。”克里斯托弗·马洛的戏剧中的台词，当他谈到海伦时，“这就是那张发射了一千艘船并烧毁的脸吗？”

Dwayne Betts: Yeah, yeah.

德韦恩·贝茨：是的，是的。

I thought that was in Homer.

我以为那是荷马的诗。

Russ Roberts: No, I did too, but it's not.

拉斯·罗伯茨：不，我也这么做了，但事实并非如此。

'And burned the topless towers of Ileum?' Ileum is Troy.

“并烧毁了回肠的无顶塔楼？”回肠就是特洛伊。

So, basically, she's so striking that she caused a thousand ships to leave Greece and come to Troy, and ultimately leading to the destruction of Troy.

所以，基本上，她是如此引人注目，以至于她导致一千艘船离开希腊来到特洛伊，并最终导致特洛伊的毁灭。

So she's a pivotal figure.

所以她是一个关键人物。

Anyway, Priam never reprimands his son.

不管怎样，普里阿摩斯从来没有训斥过他的儿子。

And, he does this extraordinary act of retrieving his son's body, partly for himself, partly for his wife, who also wants to mourn her son, Hector.

而且，他做出了这一非凡的举动，取回了儿子的尸体，部分是为了他自己，部分是为了他的妻子，她也想哀悼她的儿子赫克托。

And, as you point out, he's one of many who get killed, and this is the only one really they want.

而且，正如你所指出的，他是众多被杀者之一，而这是他们真正想要的唯一一个。

Because Hector, he's extraordinary.

因为赫克托，他很非凡。

Dwayne Betts: This is literally the only one.

Dwayne Betts：这确实是唯一的。

I forgot that.

我忘记了。

He has all these children, but this is the only one--the whole Troy rejoices when they get the body back.

他拥有所有这些孩子，但这是唯一的一个——当他们取回尸体时，整个特洛伊都欢欣鼓舞。

And in fact, is an 11-day celebration, and it preordained the day the war was going to commence on.

事实上，这是一个为期11天的庆祝活动，它预定了战争即将开始的日子。

It's wild to think that these two warring parties know each other and know each other's rights so well and are willing to honor them, even in the face of death.

认为这两个交战方如此了解彼此，如此了解彼此的权利，并且愿意尊重彼此的权利，即使面对死亡，这也太疯狂了。

Because Achilles, not only does he say, 'I'm going to give you your son,' but, 'I also am going to use my power and my influence to let you live another 11 days.' And, it's also just interesting that, in the book, knowing that Achilles can make that commitment, and we believe that Agamemnon is going to hold onto it.

因为阿喀琉斯，他不仅说，“我要把你的儿子给你”，而且，“我还要用我的力量和影响力让你再多活11天。”而且，有趣的是，在书中，知道阿喀琉斯可以做出这一承诺，并且我们相信阿伽门农将坚持这一承诺。

Russ Roberts: Yeah, I forgot about that.

拉斯·罗伯茨：是的，我忘了这一点。

That's incredible.

那真是难以置信。

Dwayne Betts: You know, I wrote a book; I wrote this huge--in Bastards of the Reagan Era , I had this 100-line poem that I wrote in iambic pentameter.

德韦恩·贝茨：你知道，我写了一本书；我在《里根时代的私生子》中写了这首巨大的诗，用抑扬格五音步写了这首 100 行的诗。

And, I used a lot of lines like the 'wine dark asphalt'; and I was trying to use these riffs that I got from Homer or from what I imagined to be Homer.

而且，我使用了很多像“酒色深色沥青”这样的线条；我试图使用这些我从荷马那里得到的即兴重复段，或者来自我想象中的荷马的重复段。

But, I also threaded lines from Shakespeare into the poem.

但是，我也将莎士比亚的诗句融入到这首诗中。

I threaded lines from Public Enemy [?-ies?] into the poem.

我将《公敌》[?-ies?] 中的诗句穿入这首诗中。

And, what I found fascinating is that when the poem got reviewed--it was this 100-line poem about this kid that goes to prison, so an epic about some young kid that goes to prison.

而且，令我着迷的是，当这首诗被审查时，这首 100 行的诗是关于这个入狱的孩子的，所以这是一部关于某个入狱的孩子的史诗。

But, it intentionally wasn't me; the kid was in prison for murder.

但是，故意不是我；这孩子因谋杀罪入狱。

But, what I found fascinating is somebody, a reviewer, said, 'And, these gritty street-soaked lines.' And, what I found fascinating is people didn't hear the Homer in it, because sometimes you choose to hear what's there.

但是，令我着迷的是有人，一位评论家，说，“而且，这些坚韧的街道浸透的线条。”而且，我发现令人着迷的是人们没有听到其中的荷马，因为有时你选择听其中的内容。

And also, I think it says something about the flexibility of language in this book, and the Fagles translation, and the other translations, and the way in which, in some sense, the best ways to describe moments in life--the best ways from 1,000 years ago, 2,000 years ago, 3,000 years ago--still work today.

而且，我认为这说明了本书、法格尔斯翻译和其他翻译中语言的灵活性，以及​​从某种意义上说，描述生活时刻的最佳方式——1000年前、2000年前、3000年前的最佳方式——至今仍然有效。

Which, for me, is something that's revelatory about the possibility that you could find in words.

对我来说，这揭示了你可以在言语中找到的可能性。

That idea about 'hold your horses,' from the funeral chapter--I was like, 'Wait.

葬礼章节中关于“稳住你的马”的想法——我当时想，“等等。”

Is this where the line 'hold your horses' came from?' Because it was such a perfect phrase.

这就是‘hold your horses’这句台词的出处吗？因为这是一个如此完美的短语。

And I know what it means colloquially, right?

我知道这在口语中意味着什么，对吗？

I had never heard it as metaphor operating in the real world: literally, the older man is telling the younger man, 'Hold your horses.

我从未在现实世界中听到过这样的比喻：从字面上看，年长的男人正在告诉年轻人，“别动。”

You are about to get us injured here.' So many moments like that.

你会让我们受伤的。这样的时刻有很多。

Russ Roberts: Well, the scene which I already read the first part of, Lycaon.

拉斯·罗伯茨：嗯，我已经读过《利卡翁》第一部分的场景。

After Achilles kills him, he takes him, I think, by the foot and slings him into the river.

我想，阿喀琉斯杀了他后，抓住了他的脚，把他扔进了河里。

And, he says, 'Sleep with the fishes.'

而且，他说，“和鱼一起睡觉。”

Dwayne Betts: He says, 'Sleep with the fishes!'

德韦恩·贝茨：他说，“和鱼一起睡觉！”

Russ Roberts: Well, I don't know Greek, so I have to find out.

拉斯·罗伯茨：嗯，我不懂希腊语，所以我必须弄清楚。

But, is that Fagles, the translator, creating this great double entendre, or is that maybe where it comes from?

但是，这个伟大的双关语到底是译者法格尔斯创造的，还是它的来源？

Russ Roberts: And, in fact, it's a beautiful thing.

拉斯·罗伯茨：事实上，这是一件很美好的事情。

He says, 'Sleep with the fishes, they'll clean your body, they're going to eat your flesh.' He says, 'I think they're going to bolt you.' Meaning, bolt your food down.

他说，“和鱼一起睡觉，它们会清理你的身体，它们会吃掉你的肉。”他说：“我想他们会用螺栓锁住你。”意思是，把你的食物固定下来。

But, yeah, you saw that one, too, right?

但是，是的，你也看到了那个，对吧？

Dwayne Betts: Yeah, it was so--I was like, 'What?'

德韦恩·贝茨：是的，我当时想，“什么？”

Yeah, this is why I honestly think it's part adventure story, part war story, part deep psychological analysis of the human psyche.

是的，这就是为什么我真的认为它一半是冒险故事，一半是战争故事，一半是对人类心灵的深入心理分析。

But, also a lesson on the circular telling of a story: how to keep going back to what the center is, but doing it in different ways.

但是，这也是关于循环讲述故事的一课：如何不断回到中心所在，但以不同的方式去做。

So, by the time you get to the end, you recognize that you haven't read a war story at all.

所以，当你读到最后时，你会发现你根本没有读过战争故事。

You read a story about all of the ways in which the human condition frustrates our ability to know each other, and still, somehow, we do know each other.

你读过一个关于人类状况如何阻碍我们相互了解的能力的故事，但不知何故，我们确实相互了解。

Russ Roberts: Maybe we'll close--let's talk a little bit about this human need to have the body.

拉斯·罗伯茨：也许我们可以结束了——让我们来谈谈人类对身体的需求。

When the United States captured Osama bin Laden, they made sure the body was lost at sea.

当美国抓获奥萨马·本·拉登时，他们确保尸体在海上失踪。

At least, I think that's the official story.

至少，我认为这是官方的故事。

And, here in the Middle East, over the last three years, we've had a lot of situations where sacrifices are made not just for living hostages, but for just the bodies .

而且，在中东，过去三年来，我们遇到了很多情况，牺牲的不仅仅是活着的人质，而且只是为了尸体。

There's a deep religious tie and connection to the body.

与身体有着深厚的宗教联系和联系。

Even though the body is understood to be just a garment for the soul, there's something about the body.

尽管身体被理解为只是灵魂的一件衣服，但身体还是有一些东西的。

It's an incredibly--it's horrifying that this need for closure is 2,800-years-old and hasn't gone away.

令人难以置信、令人恐惧的是，这种封闭的需求已经存在了 2800 年，而且从未消失。

Right?

正确的？

But, really, was it such a big deal to have the body for Priam?

但是，说实话，拥有普里阿摩斯的身体有那么重要吗？

But it is, and it hasn't changed.

但它就是这样，而且没有改变。

Can you talk about that?

你能谈谈吗？

Do you have any ideas or thoughts on that?

您对此有什么想法或想法吗？

Dwayne Betts: Yeah, but I also believe that the book tells you why.

德韦恩·贝茨：是的，但我也相信这本书会告诉你原因。

Because you get to see that to mourn--I also feel like sometimes we live in a world--not to compare myself to Achilles, but when I got profoundly depressed, I literally remember writing you on my way to Italy, telling you that I am weeping every day and I am struggling and incapable of understanding.

因为你看到这一点是为了哀悼——我也觉得有时我们生活在一个世界上——不是把自己与阿喀琉斯进行比较，但当我极度沮丧时，我确实记得在去意大利的路上给你写信，告诉你我每天都在哭泣，我在挣扎，无法理解。

And, I think if you take it out of the situation that is happening in the book and you say, 'What can happen to a man where, like, everything in his life fractured and he's left in what feels like an inconsumable grief or an unrelenting grief?' Right?

而且，我想，如果你把它从书中发生的情况中拿出来，你会说，“一个人，如果他生活中的一切都破碎了，他陷入了一种无法消解的悲伤或无情的悲伤之中，会发生什么？”正确的？

I feel like I was there.

我感觉我就在那里。

And I sensed that in Achilles, when you had somebody who never cried and now was constantly weeping.

我在阿喀琉斯身上感觉到了这一点，当你有一个从来不哭的人，现在却不断地哭泣。

It reminded me of the world that I was in.

它让我想起了我所处的世界。

And he knew he had a source to his weeping, but you couldn't just grieve alone .

他知道他的哭泣是有原因的，但你不能独自悲伤。

You had to have access to bandwidth of human emotions, but also to the history of a human being.

你必须能够了解人类情感的带宽，而且还必须了解人类的历史。

I think there's a way in which death ties you to the moment of death; but that's not what's going to make you whole.

我认为死亡以某种方式将你与死亡的那一刻联系在一起；但这并不能让你变得完整。

And so, you see that: First, Achilles, they needed the body back.

所以，你会看到：首先，阿喀琉斯，他们需要找回尸体。

But the body was the start of the conversation where you become whole, and you become whole as a part of a ritual that begins with the body.

但身体是对话的开始，在那里你变得完整，而你变得完整是从身体开始的仪式的一部分。

And then, you had all of the games; but games weren't just games.

然后，你就拥有了所有的游戏；但游戏不仅仅是游戏。

The games were opportunities for old men to remember when they were young.

这些比赛是老年人回忆年轻时的机会。

And, the games were opportunities for young men to imagine being old again.

而且，比赛是年轻人想象再次变老的机会。

It's a moment in which they race, and Ajax--little Ajax--is superfast.

这是他们比赛的时刻，而阿贾克斯——小阿贾克斯——速度超快。

And one of the gods trips him up as he's about to win the race, right?

当他即将赢得比赛时，一位神绊倒了他，对吧？

Dwayne Betts: And, it says that he falls across the finish line, comes in second--with, like, waste and stuff all in his face.

德韦恩·贝茨：而且，它说他冲过终点线，获得第二名——就像，浪费之类的东西都在他脸上。

And, the older man, I think it was Odysseus, wins.

而且，年长的人，我认为是奥德修斯，赢了。

But, another kid says: 'You know Odysseus can't beat nobody in no race: he's, like, three times as old as him.' And so then you realize the race is not even about the great gifts.

但是，另一个孩子说：“你知道奥德修斯在任何比赛中都无法击败任何人：他的年龄是他的三倍。”然后你就会意识到，这场比赛甚至与伟大的礼物无关。

The race is about these generations communing with each other in play in the face of the fact that some of their lives are going to get cut profoundly short.

这场比赛是关于这些世代在游戏中相互交流的故事，尽管他们中的一些人的生命将被大大缩短。

So, I think the attachment is more so about how do you start a grieving process that includes the full capaciousness of a person's life?

所以，我认为这种依恋更重要的是你如何开始一个悲伤的过程，其中包括一个人生命的全部容量？

Because otherwise, you can't get out of the cycle of just relentless weeping.

因为否则的话，你就无法摆脱无情哭泣的循环。

Priam says to Achilles, 'I haven't slept for 12 days.' It's a physicality to the mourning that happens when you find out about the body first becoming just a garment.

普里阿摩斯对阿喀琉斯说：“我已经 12 天没有睡觉了。”当你发现身体首先变成一件衣服时，就会发生一种肉体的哀悼。

And then, how do you make that body more than a garment again on the back end?

然后，如何在后端使该身体不再是一件衣服？

I think it is through the 11-day ritual of prayer; it is through the 11-day ritual of honoring; it is through the 11-day ritual of remembering.

我认为是通过11天的祈祷仪式；这是通过为期 11 天的纪念仪式进行的；这是通过为期 11 天的记忆仪式来实现的。

And, I say all of this as somebody who recognizes that the horror of exile is it doesn't just cut you, make you incapable of experiencing those things in your actual life, but sometimes the exile strips you of the experiences that allow you to have that structure in the back of your head.

而且，我说这一切，是因为我认识到流亡的可怕之处在于，它不仅会伤害你，让你无法在现实生活中体验这些事情，而且有时流亡会剥夺你的经历，而这些经历会让你在脑后拥有那种结构。

Some of those men, their lives got cut so short that they might have never participated in this thing as an adult, so they didn't even fully understand the rites that were going to happen to usher them home.

其中一些人的生命如此短暂，以至于他们可能从未作为成年人参与过这件事，所以他们甚至不完全理解将要发生的迎接他们回家的仪式。

And, I think that's also part of the tragedy that comes with this idea of the body being the container for so much of the memories that people walk around with.

而且，我认为这也是悲剧的一部分，这种观念认为身体是人们行走时携带的大量记忆的容器。

He even kept the bones, and they was really meticulous about it.

连骨头都保留了下来，他们做的还真是细致。

They burned all of these other bones, and they was, like, 'Hey, be careful, just get Patroclus' bones.

他们烧毁了所有其他骨头，然后他们说，‘嘿，小心点，拿走帕特罗克洛斯的骨头。

His are in the middle, yeah, beside that heavy urn.

他的在中间，是的，在那个沉重的瓮旁边。

Those are his bones.

这些是他的骨头。

Don't get no other bones because we're taking his bones back.' And Patroclus asks Achilles, his last request was that he bury his bones with Achilles, that Achilles' bones be buried with Patroclus' bones.

不要拿走其他骨头，因为我们要拿回他的骨头。”而帕特罗克洛斯问阿喀琉斯，他最后的请求是把他的骨头和阿喀琉斯一起埋葬，让阿喀琉斯的骨头和帕特罗克洛斯的骨头一起埋葬。

It's a strangely, profoundly intimate portrayal of friendship.

这是对友谊的奇怪而深刻的亲密写照。

And, I don't say strange as in weird: I say strange as in it's not a familiar thing that we notice, even in the writings today of the intimate relationships among men.

而且，我所说的奇怪并不是怪异：我说奇怪是因为即使在当今关于人类之间亲密关系的著作中，我们也注意到这不是一件熟悉的事情。

Russ Roberts: Yeah, that whole thing is just so powerful.

拉斯·罗伯茨：是的，整件事太强大了。

Russ Roberts: I got nothing more to say, Dwayne.

拉斯·罗伯茨：我没什么可说的了，德韦恩。

I love listening to your thoughts on this book.

我喜欢听听你对这本书的想法。

I wish we could talk tomorrow about it.

我希望我们明天能讨论这个问题。

Do you have anything you want to add about the experience now that it's behind you?

既然已经过去了，您对于这次经历还有什么想要补充的吗？

Dwayne Betts: Thank you.

德韦恩·贝茨：谢谢。

We talk about this all the time, Great Books, and even my organization, Freedom Reads, we talk about what it means to read a book with somebody.

我们一直在谈论这个问题，伟大的书籍，甚至我的组织，自由阅读，我们谈论与某人一起读书意味着什么。

Russ Roberts: Before you keep going, take a second and talk about what Freedom Reads is for people who don't know, because it's an amazing project.

Russ Roberts：在继续之前，请花点时间谈谈 Freedom Reads 对于那些不知道的人来说是什么，因为这是一个了不起的项目。

Dwayne Betts: So, Freedom Reads is an organization I began when somebody asked me, 'What would you do for people in prison if money wasn't an issue?' I said, 'I would put a million books in prison because we put millions of people in prison.' And, I said I would do it one library at a time.

德韦恩·贝茨：所以，当有人问我“如果钱不是问题时，你会为监狱里的人做什么？”时，我就创立了“自由阅读”组织。我说，“我会把一百万本书关进监狱，因为我们把数百万人关进监狱。”而且，我说过我会一次只做一个图书馆。

And, then, through various constraints on the system, I ended up conceptualizing a library as three bookcases that are accessible on each side, that sit about 44-inches high, and have 500 books.

然后，通过对系统的各种限制，我最终将图书馆概念化为三个书柜，每侧都可以访问，书柜高约 44 英寸，有 500 本书。

And, it has The Iliad , and it has The Odyssey , and it has a lot of other amazing and dope books in it.

而且，它有《伊利亚特》，有《奥德赛》，还有很多其他令人惊叹和精彩的书籍。

But we put them on the cell block.

但我们把它们放在牢房区。

So, if you have a prison that has 2,000 people and they're spread across 20 cell blocks, we would come and put this 500-book, beautiful, handcrafted library, Freedom Library, on each cell block so that the people could read in community.

所以，如果你有一所监狱，有 2,000 人，他们分布在 20 个牢房区，我们会在每个牢房区放置这个藏有 500 本书的精美手工图书馆“自由图书馆”，以便人们可以在社区阅读。

I want to say one self-serving thing, and I hope you keep this.

我想说一件自私的话，希望你保留这一点。

Not self-serving for me.

对我来说不是自私的。

I want to say a thing that I feel like is really edifying for you.

我想说一件我觉得对你很有启发的事情。

But, kind of self-serving for me, because people always ask me how to curate their library, and it's a complicated thing where you talk to a lot of people, but some decisions you just make .

但是，对我来说有点自私，因为人们总是问我如何管理他们的图书馆，这是一件复杂的事情，你要与很多人交谈，但你只是做出一些决定。

And, one decision I just made was Adam Smith Can Save Your Life : I put that in my Freedom Library.

而且，我刚刚做出的一个决定是《亚当·斯密可以拯救你的生命》：我把它放进了我的自由图书馆。

And, I've heard you talk about it as a self-help book.

而且，我听你说这是一本自助书。

I think it's a sophisticated self-help book, but I would agree that it's a book that's given me real practical advice on how to live.

我认为这是一本复杂的自助书，但我同意这本书给了我关于如何生活的真正实用的建议。

So, one of my friends, his name is Anthony Wen[?Wynn?Nyuen?]--he's incarcerated in Virginia--and one of my colleagues named Craig Gore, they're working on an essay.

所以，我的一个朋友，他的名字叫安东尼·温（Anthony Wen）[？Wynn？Nyuen？]——他被监禁在弗吉尼亚州——我的一位同事名叫克雷格·戈尔（Craig Gore），他们正在写一篇论文。

So, Craig wanted to interview somebody who has lived with a Freedom Library.

因此，克雷格想采访一个曾经和自由图书馆一起生活过的人。

And, Anthony, they started a book club, and they read 24 books together.

安东尼，他们成立了一个读书俱乐部，一起读了 24 本书。

They read Don Quixote , they read all kinds of things.

他们读《堂吉诃德》，读各种各样的东西。

They read some Oscar Wilde, they read all kinds of things.

他们读了一些奥斯卡·王尔德的作品，他们读了各种各样的东西。

So, he says, 'Anthony, can you tell me what book you found to be the one that you just have to talk about that you read in the Freedom Library?' And, first he said, 'How many books have you read, anyway?' He said, 'Well, we read 24 for the book club, and I probably read another 40, so I read 60.'

所以，他说，“安东尼，你能告诉我你在自由图书馆读过的哪本书是你必须谈论的那本书吗？”他首先说：“你到底读了多少本书？”他说：“好吧，我们为读书俱乐部读了 24 本，我可能还读了 40 本，所以我读了 60 本。”

He starts talking about Adam Smith Can Save Your Life .

他开始谈论亚当·斯密可以拯救你的生命。

And, I'm listening to these two men--both of these men are about 50-years-old--and he's talking about the book.

而且，我正在听这两个人——这两个人都大约 50 岁——他正在谈论这本书。

He was, like, 'Yeah, you know Adam Smith?

他说，‘是的，你知道亚当·斯密吗？

Everybody says he founded capitalism, but it turns out he wrote this other book called The Theory of Moral Sentiment .' And, he spent the next three-and-a-half minutes waxing poetic about Adam Smith.

每个人都说他创立了资本主义，但事实证明他写了另一本书，名为《道德情操论》。而且，他在接下来的三分半钟里对亚当·斯密进行了充满诗意的描述。

It was so thoughtful, so interesting, so engaging that at the end of the riff, Craig said, 'Wait a minute, tell me who wrote that book again?

它是如此深思熟虑、如此有趣、如此引人入胜，以至于在即兴表演结束时，克雷格说，‘等一下，告诉我谁又写了那本书？

Tell me the name of the book.

告诉我书名。

I need to get that book.' And, this is what the Freedom Library does.

我需要拿到那本书。而且，这就是自由图书馆所做的。

It creates these moments that are radically unpredictable, unexpected.

它创造了这些完全不可预测、意想不到的时刻。

Another book he talked about was A Gentleman in Moscow .

他谈到的另一本书是《莫斯科绅士》。

And, what I just found beautiful was that he, in real time, over a 15-minute interview, just talked about why books open up portals to community, to grace, to self-reflection.

而且，我刚刚发现美妙的是，他在 15 分钟的实时采访中谈到了为什么书籍打开了通向社区、优雅和自我反思的大门。

And, I feel like, in a very real way, this is the first time in my life, actually, that I read a book in concert with somebody and engaged with the book in this way.

而且，我觉得，以一种非常真实的方式，实际上，这是我一生中第一次与某人一起读一本书，并以这种方式与这本书互动。

Because as I was reading it, I was thinking about our conversation.

因为当我读它的时候，我正在思考我们的谈话。

I was highlighting sections, but I also, because I read it so quickly, found me losing myself in this book, also me losing myself in another layer of developing a friendship.

我正在突出显示某些部分，但由于我读得太快，我发现我在这本书中迷失了自己，也在发展友谊的另一层中迷失了自己。

Which is the kind of thing that I don't know if it's as efficient a way to do something like this in this kind of compressed time, where every emotion in my life got connected to this reading of the book.

我不知道在这种压缩的时间内做这样的事情是否有效，因为我生命中的每一种情感都与这本书的阅读联系在一起。

Which meant that every emotion in my life got connected to this conversation.

这意味着我生活中的每一种情感都与这次谈话有关。

Which means that now, you have become a different kind of friend to me.

这意味着现在，你对我来说已经成为了另一种朋友。

So, I really do appreciate this because it was pretty dope.

所以，我真的很欣赏这一点，因为它非常酷。

Russ Roberts: I don't know how to respond to that other than--my book, How Adam Smith Can Change Your Life .

拉斯·罗伯茨：除了我的书《亚当·斯密如何改变你的生活》之外，我不知道该如何回应。

I love that you remember the title as Adam Smith Can Save Your Life .

我很高兴你记得《亚当·斯密可以拯救你的生命》这个标题。

It's actually How Adam Smith Can Change Your Life , but that's a good title, too.

这实际上是《亚当·斯密如何改变你的生活》，但这也是一个很好的标题。

It's a better title.

这是一个更好的标题。

But, I always felt your library of 500 books--and we'll put a link up to the Freedom Reads project, you could see pictures of what the--I just like the bookcase itself.

但是，我总觉得你们的图书馆有 500 本书——我们会放一个自由阅读项目的链接，你可以看到这些东西的图片——我只是喜欢书柜本身。

I think it's exquisitely beautiful.

我认为它非常美丽。

And, I've had the privilege of being with you and seeing how the project is working; and we've talked a lot about how the library physically is created.

而且，我有幸与您在一起并了解该项目的运作情况；我们已经讨论了很多关于图书馆的物理创建方式。

And, it's 500 books, but there's a lot of good books in the world, and the fact that you decided to include my book, it breaks my heart in the best possible way.

而且，它有 500 本书，但世界上有很多好书，事实上，你决定把我的书包括在内，这让我心碎。

I occasionally say the phrase 'I am not worthy, I am not worthy,' but the fact that it spoke to someone, it more than makes my day.

我偶尔会说“我不值得，我不值得”这句话，但事实上，这句话是对某人说的，这让我很开心。

It's magnificent.

太棒了。

So, thank you for sharing that.

所以，谢谢你分享这一点。

But, yeah, you and I, we've read, we had a wonderful experience--you can go back and listen to the episode where I read Invisible Man and you read a book, a Primo Levi.

但是，是的，你和我，我们读过，我们有过一次美妙的经历——你可以回去听我读《隐形人》的那一集，你读一本书，一本普里莫·莱维。

And, reading books together is a magnificent thing; and talking about it, I had 10 things in this conversation I did not know about or think about.

而且，一起读书是一件很美妙的事情；说起来，在这次谈话中我有 10 件事是我不知道或没有想到的。

And, I'm going to share it with Ido Hevroni, who has been teaching The Iliad for over a decade, and I'm sure he's going to learn a lot from your insights as well.

而且，我将与伊多·赫夫罗尼 (Ido Hevroni) 分享它，他已经教授《伊利亚特》十多年了，我相信他也会从您的见解中学到很多东西。

So, I'm just incredibly grateful that you put the three days into--

所以，我非常感激你花了三天时间--

Oh, you're holding up the Primo Levi.

哦，你拿着 Primo Levi。

What is it?

它是什么？

Can we get that title?

我们能得到这个称号吗？

Russ Roberts: If This Is a Man .

拉斯·罗伯茨：如果这是一个男人。

And then, the second book in that, what's the other book?

然后，第二本书，另一本书是什么？

Russ Roberts: The Truce .

拉斯·罗伯茨：休战。

Those are the original titles from the Italian that Primo Levi gave the books, but in translation they're typically retitled as Survival in Auschwitz --

这些是普里莫·莱维为这些书提供的意大利语原标题，但在翻译中，它们通常被重新命名为《奥斯威辛的生存》——

Dwayne Betts: Survival in Auschwitz , yeah.

德韦恩·贝茨：奥斯维辛集中营的生存，是的。

Russ Roberts: And also, the other one, it's not called The Truce .

拉斯·罗伯茨：还有，另一个，它不叫休战。

It's called--oh, I'm blanking on the title.

它的名字叫——哦，我对标题一片空白。

But, anyway, they're not good titles.

但无论如何，它们都不是好标题。

His original titles are unbelievable.

他原来的头衔令人难以置信。

So, it's really, it's important: we've had this connection and it's special and I'm looking forward to the next one.

所以，这真的很重要：我们已经建立了这种联系，而且很特别，我期待着下一次。

Do you want to say anything else about The Iliad before we go?

在我们走之前你还想对《伊利亚特》说些什么吗？

Dwayne Betts: No. It's an amazing book.

德韦恩·贝茨：不。这是一本很棒的书。

I'm so happy to have gotten a chance to engage with it.

我很高兴有机会参与其中。

And, I forgot about the other two books, but I think this was the first original book, but both of those.

而且，我忘记了其他两本书，但我认为这是第一本原创书，但这两本书都是。

I opened my solo show up with a piece from If This Is a Man .

我以《如果这是一个男人》中的一首作品拉开了我的个人表演的序幕。

The connection, where literally every time I perform my solo show, so at this point probably dozens of times, I've opened it up with a passage.

这种联系，实际上每次我表演我的个展时，所以在这一点上可能有几十次，我都会用一段话来打开它。

I'm on a stage and I take the book off of the Freedom Library, and I open it up and the bookmark is a piece of handmade paper from some clothes of some friends of mine who did time in prison--I turned it into paper.

我站在舞台上，从自由图书馆取出这本书，打开它，书签是一张手工纸，是用我在监狱里服过刑的一些朋友的衣服制作的——我把它变成了纸。

And, I read the part that has this one line, it says--

而且，我读了有这一行的部分，它说——

Russ Roberts: You could read the passage if you want.

拉斯·罗伯茨：如果你愿意的话，你可以阅读这段文字。

Dwayne Betts: Okay, I'll read it.

Dwayne Betts：好的，我会读一下。

He says,

他说，

And yeah, I say it from the stage.

是的，我是在舞台上说的。

And then the next thing I say is, I say, 'What do you see when you hear the word prison?' And then, I go into this 90-minute conversation about my life and incarceration and books.

然后我说的下一件事是，“当你听到监狱这个词时，你会看到什么？”然后，我开始了这个 90 分钟的谈话，内容涉及我的生活、监禁和书籍。

But, the beautiful thing about it is people will always say, 'Is the story that you tell just a story about what's in the four pages of the piece,' like what's in the four corners of a contract?

但是，它的美妙之处在于人们总是会说，“你讲述的故事只是关于文章四页内容的故事”，就像合同四个角的内容一样吗？

But, it's like no, the story, the capaciousness of The Iliad , what I just learned is that it escapes the pages relentlessly.

但是，就像《伊利亚特》的故事和广阔一样，我刚刚了解到的是它无情地从书页中消失了。

It refuses to be constrained by the fact that it's seemingly just about a war.

它拒绝被这似乎只是一场战争的事实所束缚。

It makes itself about so many different elements of your life.

它涉及你生活中的许多不同元素。

And I think the same is always true for a good book.

我认为对于一本好书来说也是如此。

And, that thing that happens becomes exponentially more true when you read in the company of a generous, and intelligent, and thoughtful, funny friend.

而且，当你在一个慷慨、聪明、体贴、有趣的朋友的陪伴下阅读时，发生的事情就会变得更加真实。

So, that's what I will say: is that I didn't know that Homer and The Iliad would be a passageway to deepening a friendship.

所以，这就是我要说的：我不知道荷马和伊利亚特会成为加深友谊的途径。

I just thought it was something that I would check off and say, 'I read it.

我只是觉得我会勾选它并说，‘我读过它。

I've read The Iliad .' And now I'm thinking, no, it's a great book, but I have profound connections with the world after having read it.

我读过《伊利亚特》。现在我在想，不，这是一本很棒的书，但读完它后我与这个世界有了深刻的联系。

It's not just something to check off on the I've-read-this great book.

这不仅仅是为了核对我读过的这本伟大的书。

It's almost like I lived the book and having lived it, I'm a different human being.

就好像我经历过这本书，经历过它之后，我就变成了一个不同的人。

Russ Roberts: My guest today has been Dwayne Betts.

拉斯·罗伯茨：今天我的客人是德韦恩·贝茨。

Dwayne, thanks for being part of EconTalk.

Dwayne，感谢您参与 EconTalk。