ben sasse on faith family and facing death

Six months into a stage-four pancreatic cancer diagnosis that gave him 90 days to live, Ben Sasse sits down with EconTalk's Russ Roberts for a conversation that refuses easy comfort.

本·萨斯 (Ben Sasse) 被诊断为胰腺癌四期，只剩下 90 天的生命。六个月后，他与 EconTalk 的拉斯·罗伯茨 (Russ Roberts) 坐下来进行了一次充满轻松安慰的对话。

The former U.S. senator and University of Florida president is candid about his physical challenges but the heart of this exchange is elsewhere: what actually matters when time is short.

这位前美国参议员、佛罗里达大学校长对自己的身体挑战很坦诚，但这次交流的核心在别处：当时间紧迫时，真正重要的是什么。

Sasse reflects on faith and mortality, the "shattering of idols" like his own workaholism, and his pride in his marriage.

萨斯反思了信仰和死亡、“偶像的破碎”（如他自己的工作狂）以及他对婚姻的自豪感。

Along the way he offers sharp diagnoses of Congress's abdication of responsibility, the crisis inside American universities, and a republic distracted by the "digital casino" in its pocket.

一路上，他对国会的放弃责任、美国大学内部的危机以及因口袋里的“数字赌场”而分心的共和国提出了尖锐的诊断。

Funny, unflinching, and deeply human, it closes with a meditation on raging against the dying of the light while walking with your head bowed.

有趣、坚定、充满人性，它以低着头行走时对光明的消逝的愤怒的冥想结束。

I’m a regular listener of your podcast, and I really appreciate a lot of the guests that you bring on.

我是你播客的常客，我真的很感谢你带来的很多嘉宾。

I’m also a university faculty member in the social sciences, and I teach urban planning courses at Arizona State University.

我也是一名社会科学大学教员，在亚利桑那州立大学教授城市规划课程。

I’m writing today because I really hate when I hear people in positions of power making false claims, and that unfortunately happened in the middle of this conversation.

我今天写这篇文章是因为我真的很讨厌听到有权势的人做出虚假声明，而不幸的是，这发生在这次谈话中。

The part of this conversation where Ben Sasse claims that faculty in humanities and social sciences are doing “faux research” immediately follows his discussion of the “numbers” around research productivity and teaching at the University of Florida, which is clever spin and placement because it almost sounds like he’s got “numbers” to back up his “faux research” claims.

在这次谈话中，本·萨斯声称人文和社会科学领域的教师正在进行“虚假研究”，紧接着他讨论了佛罗里达大学研究生产力和教学的“数字”，这是巧妙的旋转和布局，因为听起来他几乎有“数字”来支持他的“虚假研究”主张。

The thing is, there may certainly be a real problem with faculty getting lower teaching loads when they aren’t bringing in much research money, or a real problem that too few faculty bring in research money at all.

问题是，当教师没有带来太多研究资金时，他们的教学负担就会降低，这可能确实存在一个真正的问题，或者一个真正的问题是，很少有教师带来研究资金。

But Sasse’s “numbers” are extremely skewed (and wrong).

但萨斯的“数字”极其扭曲（而且是错误的）。

They make the University of Florida look ridiculous, and Sasse claims that the same story is true everywhere, so it makes all of higher education look ridiculous.

他们让佛罗里达大学看起来很可笑，而萨斯声称同样的故事在任何地方都存在，所以这让所有的高等教育看起来很可笑。

I looked it up – Florida has around 2250 tenure eligible faculty (the ones who are evaluated based on teaching/research/service).

我查了一下——佛罗里达州大约有 2250 名符合终身任职资格的教师（根据教学/研究/服务进行评估）。

Sasse’s claim of 6300 who teach a class isn’t wrong, but most of those people are part-time adjuncts or lecturers whose job is only to teach.

Sasse 声称一堂课有 6300 名教师并没有错，但其中大多数人都是兼职助教或讲师，他们的工作只是教学。

They do not get reduced teaching loads because they bring in research grants.

他们并没有因为带来研究经费而减少教学负担。

Still, it sounds bad to say that only 100 or so of these 2250 people (i.e. ~5%) are bringing in 95% of the research dollars.

尽管如此，说这 2250 人中只有 100 人左右（即约 5%）带来了 95% 的研究资金，这听起来很糟糕。

But this *also* is extremely misleading!

但这*也*具有极大的误导性！

Sasse is counting research grant money here as going only to the “Principal Investigator” – the top person on the team that brought in the money.

萨斯在这里将研究补助金计算为仅流向“首席研究员”——带来资金的团队中的最高层人员。

In my experience, nearly every research project has a team – sometimes quite a large group, in fact – that work together to bring in the money and to do the research.

根据我的经验，几乎每个研究项目都有一个团队——实际上有时是一个很大的团队——他们共同努力筹集资金并进行研究。

I’m in the social sciences, I’ve worked on research proposals with between 2 and 25 co-investigators, and I’m not unusual.

我从事社会科学领域，曾与 2 到 25 名联合研究者一起研究过研究计划，我并不罕见。

Teams in the natural sciences or in medicine are generally even larger.

自然科学或医学领域的团队通常规模更大。

So, making a guess that the average size of a research team is maybe 4-5 people and redoing Sasse’s “numbers” leads to about 400-500 people out of 2250 bringing in most of the research dollars.

因此，猜测一个研究团队的平均规模可能是 4-5 人，并重做 Sasse 的“数字”，导致 2250 人中约有 400-500 人带来了大部分研究资金。

This is approximately 20% of tenure-eligible faculty bringing in 95% of the research dollars – not the 1% that Sasse claimed.

这大约是 20% 的有终身教授资格的教师带来了 95% 的研究经费——而不是萨斯声称的 1%。

One could reasonably argue that this number should be higher than 20%, but when you hear that 20% of faculty at a particular institution bring in 95% of the grant money, it doesn’t make higher education sound like a joke.

人们可以合理地认为这个数字应该高于 20%，但是当你听说某个机构 20% 的教师带来了 95% 的助学金时，这并不会让高等教育听起来像个笑话。

It makes it sound like higher education has something to work on, which I think is true.

这听起来像是高等教育有待改进，我认为这是事实。

Unfortunately, people like Sasse making higher education sound like a joke leads the people who fund research want to stop investing in research at universities.

不幸的是，像萨斯这样的人让高等教育听起来像个笑话，导致资助研究的人想要停止投资大学的研究。

This is exactly what the US federal government is working toward doing right now, in large part “informed” by misleading “data” of the sort that Sasse presented in this interview.

这正是美国联邦政府目前正在努力做的事情，很大程度上是通过萨斯在这次采访中提供的那种误导性“数据”来“告知”的。

Following on Professor Salon’s comments, how about this thigh-slapper?

接沙龙教授的点评，这个拍大腿的怎么样？

“So, people don’t know what it would be like to not really have freedom of religion, speech, press, assembly, right of protest.”

“所以，人们不知道没有真正的宗教、言论、新闻、集会和抗议权会是什么样子。”

I wonder how Alex Preddy, Renee Good, Don Lemmon, and Georgia Fort feel about this?

我想知道亚历克斯·普雷迪、蕾妮·古德、唐·莱蒙和乔治亚·福特对此有何感想？

For decades and decades now, my first law of politics has been: No decent person seeks or accepts political power over another.

几十年来，我的第一条政治法则是：没有正派的人会寻求或接受凌驾于他人之上的政治权力。

That law has served me well.

这条法律对我很有帮助。

Perhaps it’s cynical.

也许这是愤世嫉俗的。

Perhaps it has huge explanatory power.

也许它有巨大的解释力。

I admit that Ben Sasse caused me to wonder about the universality of my first law.

我承认本·萨斯让我怀疑我的第一定律的普遍性。

I was both disappointed and impressed when he gave up what could have been life tenure in the Senate from Nebraska, and took on the University of Florida.

当他放弃内布拉斯加州参议员的终身职位，转而进入佛罗里达大学时，我既失望又印象深刻。

I didn’t follow it closely but his work there impressed me.

我没有密切关注，但他在那里的工作给我留下了深刻的印象。

I was devastated when he resigned, even more so when the reason became clear.

当他辞职时，我感到非常震惊，当原因清楚后，我更伤心了。

I think Ben Sasse is an extraordinary man.

我认为本·萨斯是一个非凡的人。

That said, I find his protestations of faith hideous.

也就是说，我发现他的信仰声明很可怕。

I’ve long ago accepted that people can compartmentalize.

我很久以前就接受了人们可以划分的观点。

They can live by reason while worshipping superstition.

他们可以靠理性生活，同时崇拜迷信。

I get it.

我得到它。

But it is simply impossible to square the circle of an all powerful, all knowing, all loving God, who could have made it otherwise, would strike down this man when he had done so much good and had so much more good to do.

但是，要让一个全能、全知、全爱的上帝来解决这个问题是根本不可能的，他本可以做到这一点，否则，当这个人做了这么多善事并且还有这么多善事要做时，他会击倒这个人。

No conscious being could conceive of such a thing.

任何有意识的人都无法想象这样的事情。

Unless he were malevolent.

除非他是恶意的。

I also take strong exception to the idea that Sasse expressed in this episode but which is oft repeated among the superstitious: That without a God and without a supernatural realm, life has no meaning.

我也强烈反对萨斯在这一集中表达的观点，但这种观点在迷信者中经常重复：没有上帝，没有超自然的领域，生命就没有意义。

That’s stupid and insulting.

这是愚蠢和侮辱性的。

And obviously so.

显然是这样。

If for no other reason than there is no God and there is no supernatural realm, just as there are no unicorns.

如果没有其他原因，除了没有上帝，没有超自然领域，就像没有独角兽一样。

I loved this conversation.

我喜欢这次谈话。

I was moved by it.

我被它感动了。

I learned a lot–as I do every Monday.

我学到了很多东西——就像我每个星期一所做的那样。

But it occurred to me: Ben Sasse’s God has explicitly condemned Russ Roberts to eternal damnation.

但我突然想到：本·萨斯的上帝明确谴责拉斯·罗伯茨永恒的诅咒。

And vice versa.

反之亦然。

What a perfectly horrible, anti-human, hateful thing to believe.

这是多么可怕、反人类、可憎的事情啊。

Russ, if there is a God (and there is not) I look forward to spending eternity learning from and arguing with you in Hell.

拉斯，如果有上帝（也没有），我期待着在地狱里永远向你学习并与你争论。

Prof. Sasse, thank you for a consequential and well-directed life, and for sharing your thoughts with us in this wide-ranging conversation.

萨斯教授，感谢您的精彩人生，感谢您在这次内容广泛的对话中与我们分享您的想法。

You might now question your workaholism, but we should acknowledge that the rest of us were the beneficiaries.

你现在可能会质疑你的工作狂，但我们应该承认，我们其他人都是受益者。

One thing you said about our current political moment that resonated with me is that the executive overreach we’re experiencing with Trump was really caused by legislative underreach.

关于我们当前的政治时刻，你所说的引起我共鸣的一件事是，我们对特朗普所经历的行政越权实际上是由立法不足造成的。

You and Russ both noted Congress’s apparent aversion to taking responsibility, preferring instead to delegate tough decision to the President or civil servants.

您和拉斯都注意到国会明显不愿承担责任，而宁愿将艰难的决定委托给总统或公务员。

My own suspicion is that an institutional change in the operation of Congress in the mid-1990s is largely responsible for the recent decades of legislative underreach.

我个人怀疑，20 世纪 90 年代中期国会运作的制度变革是近几十年来立法力度不够的主要原因。

Specifically, prior to around 1995, Congress functioned with “strong” subject-matter committees that reported proposed legislation directly to the floor for a vote by the full chamber, either the House or Senate.

具体而言，在 1995 年左右之前，国会通过“强大”的主题委员会运作，直接向众议院报告拟议的立法，供众议院或参议院全体会议投票。

Committees conducted meaningful, respectful, thoughtful hearings with witnesses reflecting expertise, interests and experience.

委员会与反映专业知识、兴趣和经验的证人举行了有意义、尊重和深思熟虑的听证会。

Because the two parties were generally centrist and not polarized (think Blue-Dog Democrats and Republicans like Lowell Weicker or Jacob Javits), bipartisanship within the committees was the rule of the day, and proposed legislation generally reflected compromises to accommodate what each party thought most important — and final passage also generally, or very often, required bipartisanship on the floor.

由于两党普遍都是中间派且没有两极分化（想想蓝狗民主党和像洛厄尔·韦克或雅各布·贾维茨这样的共和党人），委员会内的两党合作是当时的规则，拟议的立法通常反映了妥协，以适应各党认为最重要的内容——最终的通过通常也需要两党在场上合作。

Compromising to get legislation passed was incentivized within committees.

委员会内部激励着为立法通过而做出妥协。

The only way a committee chair or ranking minority member could earn their spurs was by being associated with successful legislation.

委员会主席或少数派高级成员获得支持的唯一途径就是与成功的立法联系起来。

This system institutionalized ongoing government reform, often incremental, sometimes more radical, but usually the product of a thoughtful process.

该体系将正在进行的政府改革制度化，通常是渐进式的，有时更为激进，但通常是深思熟虑过程的产物。

In 1995, however, things changed.

然而，到了1995年，情况发生了变化。

The incoming House speaker, Newt Gingrich, wanted to consolidate power in the House leadership, probably so he could personally negotiate on fairly equal terms with Bill Clinton.

即将上任的众议院议长纽特·金里奇希望巩固众议院领导层的权力，或许这样他就可以亲自与比尔·克林顿进行相当平等的谈判。

In the short run, this approach did result in compromises on welfare reform, and especially on institutional measures that led for a brief time to a balanced budget, thereby permitting the Democrats and Republicans to share credit and avoid losing Ross Perot’s proven 20 percent of voters who were mostly concerned about fiscal balance.

从短期来看，这种做法确实导致了福利改革方面的妥协，特别是在短期内实现预算平衡的制度措施方面，从而使民主党和共和党能够分享信用，并避免失去罗斯·佩罗所证明的20%的选民，这些选民最关心财政平衡。

In the longer run, however, over the past 30 years, gutting the strong committee system meant that ongoing government reform was dead.

然而，从长远来看，在过去的30年里，强大的委员会制度的瓦解意味着正在进行的政府改革已经死了。

To get to the floor, legislation needed the direct support of the House and Senate leadership.

为了落地，立法需要众议院和参议院领导层的直接支持。

This new process cut the minority party out of the process and eliminated the strong committee-based incentives for bipartisan compromise.

这一新程序将少数党排除在外，并消除了基于委员会的两党妥协的强烈激励措施。

It led to a vicious circle strengthening party polarization.

这导致了政党两极分化加剧的恶性循环。

We are now reaping the consequences of three decades of neglecting responsible government reform.

我们现在正在承受三十年来忽视负责任的政府改革的后果。

Unlike the private sector, government is not disciplined by competition.

与私营部门不同，政府不受竞争约束。

To achieve any semblence of efficiency, it requires ongoing rational reform, which requires supporting institutional structures such as strong committees.

为了实现任何表面上的效率，都需要持续的理性改革，这需要支持强有力的委员会等制度结构。

In these three decades, we couldn’t consider adopting the metric system, eliminate the penny, or cut out Saturday mail delivery, let alone consider privatizing air traffic control, the postal service, or passenger train service.

在这三十年里，我们无法考虑采用公制，取消一分钱，或取消周六的邮件投递，更不用说考虑将空中交通管制、邮政服务或客运列车服务私有化。

Much of the rest of the world, not so shackled, moved on.

世界上其他大部分地区没有受到如此束缚，继续前进。

Edmund Burke’s 19th century critique of revolutions was based on the lack of foresight when existing institutions are torn apart without understanding what beneficial functions they may serve, and without a considered plan to replace them — in other words, without a rational approach to reform rather than destruction.

埃德蒙·伯克 (Edmund Burke) 对 19 世纪革命的批评是基于缺乏远见，即现有机构在不了解它们可以发挥什么有益功能的情况下被撕裂，也没有经过深思熟虑的计划来取代它们——换句话说，没有采取理性的改革而不是破坏的方法。

It is the same point G.K.

G.K. 也是同样的观点。

Chesterton made with his famous “fence” analogy.

切斯特顿用他著名的“栅栏”做了比喻。

Burke never opposed change — in fact, he was probably his era’s preeminent “reformer”.

伯克从不反对变革——事实上，他可能是他那个时代最杰出的“改革者”。

Gingrich’s elimination of strong committees spread to the Senate, and both parties, for apparently differing reasons, embraced the change going forward, regardless of which of the two major parties controlled either chamber.

金里奇取消强有力的委员会的决定蔓延到了参议院，两党出于明显不同的原因，都接受了未来的变革，无论两个主要政党中哪一个控制了参议院。

So here’s my thought.

这是我的想法。

Let’s return to strong committees.

让我们回到强大的委员会。

Perhaps the Democrats might consider nationalizing this issue in congressional races, a new “Contract with America” on a platform to undo the Gingrich “reform”.

也许民主党可能会考虑在国会竞选中将这个问题国有化，以一项新的“与美国契约”为平台，取消金里奇“改革”。

Of course, “fix” the problems that initially led Democrats to embrace the Gingrich change, namely, mainly, the much abhorred “seniority system” of assigning committee chairs — that shouldn’t be too difficult.

当然，“解决”最初导致民主党接受金里奇变革的问题，主要是指派委员会主席的令人憎恶的“资历制度”——这应该不会太困难。

I would certainly be interested in what others think, including Russ and Prof. Sasse (if he has a moment — I’m sure he has more important things for his time these days) — but also those engaged in politics and elected leadership.

我当然会对其他人的想法感兴趣，包括拉斯和萨斯教授（如果他有时间的话——我确信他现在有更重要的事情要做）——但也对那些从事政治和民选领导的人的想法感兴趣。

I didn’t really understand Ben’s criticism of the legislature.

我不太理解本对立法机关的批评。

I agree that Congress’s unwillingness to legislate is a huge problem.

我同意国会不愿意立法是一个大问题。

But the one major piece of legislation they discussed, Obamacare, he criticized for not being specific enough and for leaving too much to the bureaucracy.

但他批评他们讨论的一项重要立法——奥巴马医改法案不够具体，而且给官僚机构留下了太多的空间。

I understand that Ben opposes Obamacare on policy grounds.

据我所知，本出于政策原因反对奥巴马医改。

But the idea that one of its central flaws was that Congress didn’t legislate at a sufficiently granular level seems strange to me.

但它的主要缺陷之一是国会没有在足够细化的层面上立法，这一想法对我来说似乎很奇怪。

Do we really want Jim Bunning screaming at Al Franken about hair plugs on the Senate floor?

我们真的希望吉姆·邦宁（Jim Bunning）在参议院就发塞问题向艾尔·弗兰肯（Al Franken）大喊大叫吗？

If you’re going to have meaningful national legislation in a country as large and complicated as the United States, I think you have to leave a lot of the details to agencies and career officials.

如果你想在像美国这样幅员辽阔、复杂的国家制定有意义的国家立法，我认为你必须把很多细节留给机构和职业官员。

The more important question is how to make those institutions accountable and competent, not whether Congress itself should be writing every detail.

更重要的问题是如何让这些机构负责并有能力，而不是国会本身是否应该写下每一个细节。

I was also confused by the criticism of universities.

我也对大学的批评感到困惑。

Of course, I agree that universities are large, complex institutions and are often inefficiently run.

当然，我同意大学是大型、复杂的机构，而且往往运行效率低下。

But I wasn’t sure what the proposed solution actually was, other than, perhaps, putting more people like Ben and Russ into leadership positions?

但我不确定提议的解决方案实际上是什么，也许除了让更多像本和拉斯这样的人担任领导职务之外？

The part I found especially confusing was when Ben said…

我发现特别令人困惑的是本说……

“Who would say, as the father of a 17-becoming-18-year-old, ‘Oh, I want to hand my kids over to’—and then go read the curriculum of your school?”

“作为一个 17 岁即将满 18 岁的孩子的父亲，谁会说，‘哦，我想把我的孩子交给’——然后去读你们学校的课程？”

That seems to suggest there are no meaningful market forces shaping universities.

这似乎表明不存在塑造大学的有意义的市场力量。

But obviously there are.

但显然是有的。

Students and parents choose among schools, schools compete for them, employers react to the graduates they produce, donors have preferences, and institutions differentiate themselves in all sorts of ways.

学生和家长在学校中进行选择，学校为他们竞争，雇主对他们培养的毕业生做出反应，捐助者有偏好，机构以各种方式使自己与众不同。

I hear a version of this frequently from conservatives who strongly dislike what universities teach, but are unwilling to acknowledge it is the outcome of a highly competitive market process.

我经常从保守派那里听到这样的说法，他们强烈不喜欢大学所教授的内容，但又不愿意承认这是高度竞争的市场过程的结果。

I’m voting now for my favorite episode of 2026.

我现在正在投票选出我最喜欢的 2026 年剧集。

Thanks Russ, great interview of the exceptional Ben Sasse.

谢谢拉斯，对杰出的本·萨斯的精彩采访。

I have listened to at least part of every episode of Econtalk for some yeas now and this it seems to me the most meaningful of all of them.

多年来，我至少听过 Econtalk 每一集的一部分，在我看来，这是其中最有意义的一集。

I especially appreciated Ben Sasse’s courage and wisdom in speaking of his illness, his great suffering and his sentence of death.

我特别欣赏本·萨斯在讲述他的疾病、巨大的痛苦和死刑判决时所表现出的勇气和智慧。

Russ Roberts as he so often is was the ideal listener and conversation partner.

拉斯·罗伯茨（Russ Roberts）经常是理想的倾听者和对话伙伴。

He did not simply echo Sasse but brought his own experience and feelings to the conversation.

他并不是简单地附和萨斯，而是将自己的经历和感受带入谈话中。

I am deeply grateful to both of them for helping me better understand my own probably imminent encounter with the Grim Reaper.

我非常感谢他们俩帮助我更好地了解我自己可能即将遇到的死神。

As an aside, I second the motion in regard to Ray Kurzeil’s nonsensical remarks about the great disembodied human future.

顺便说一句，我支持有关雷·库泽尔关于伟大的、无形的人类未来的荒谬言论的动议。

Our bodily being gives us much which is precious as human beings and liviing in an imagined purely digital future deprives us of the life story each one of us so uniquely is.

我们的身体给予了我们许多作为人类宝贵的东西，而生活在想象中的纯粹数字化的未来却剥夺了我们每个人独特的生活故事。

This is the conversation that Russ Roberts wants to have with Ben Sasse (ht to Tyler Cowen).

这是拉斯·罗伯茨想要与本·萨斯（泰勒·考恩）进行的对话。

Another commenter mentioned that this conversation was wide-rangin.

另一位评论者提到，这次谈话范围广泛。

I think that was a detriment.

我认为这是一种损害。

I think it would have improved if it was just his religion and diagnosis.

我认为如果这只是他的宗教信仰和诊断的话，情况会有所改善。

That was a bulk, but the other parts didn’t add anything to me.

那是一个大块，但其他部分对我来说没有任何增加。

One of a few episodes that have made me cry.

让我哭的几集之一。

And I cried at the same place the host and the guest cried.

我和主人、客人在同一个地方哭了。

Such a wonderful representation of the Christian faith.

这是基督教信仰的完美体现。

And I don’t mean that in a phony sense, but this is a true representation of the Christian faith.

我并不是说这是虚假的，而是基督教信仰的真实体现。

There are many men like this in every community.

每个社区都有很多这样的人。

And I won’t pretend like there aren’t solid men who don’t profess the Christian faith.

我不会假装没有不信奉基督教信仰的坚定男人。

But I really believe in totality, through Christ, we reach that balanced, you just can’t get otherwise.

但我真的相信整体性，通过基督，我们可以达到平衡，否则你就无法实现。

Thank you to Ben for using his borrowed time for our benefit with this heart felt discussion.

感谢本利用他借来的时间进行了这次衷心的讨论，为我们带来好处。

It was a very moving discussion.

这是一次非常感人的讨论。

Thank you, Russ, for inviting Ben as your speaker, for sharing your personal feelings, thoughts, perspectives and for the variety of topics you bring to your listeners.

拉斯，感谢您邀请本作为您的演讲者，分享您的个人感受、想法、观点以及为听众带来的各种主题。

You are a treasure!

你是一个宝藏！

Ben Sasse is a very strong person who seems to be facing pending death in as a brave a way as many with cancer sometimes do.

本·萨斯是一个非常坚强的人，他似乎像许多癌症患者有时一样勇敢地面对死亡。

Maybe its the time line that allows adults and children to find their inner strength to battle while on earth.

也许正是这个时间线让大人和孩子在地球上找到了战斗的内在力量。

Many do what Ben does – help others.

许多人都做本所做的事——帮助别人。

Great Podcast interview!

很棒的播客采访！

Even if his comments might not always apply in respect to all colleges he provides some food for thought.

即使他的评论可能并不总是适用于所有大学，但他也提供了一些值得深思的内容。

Ok, no need to have a vote for best episodes of 2026 – this is it.

好吧，无需投票选出 2026 年最佳剧集——就是这样。

Praying for the best for Ben Sasse.

为本·萨斯祈祷一切顺利。

This week's focus: Additional ideas and people mentioned in this podcast episode:

本周的焦点：本播客节目中提到的其他想法和人物：

A few more readings and background resources:

更多阅读材料和背景资源：

More related EconTalk podcast episodes, by Category:

更多相关的 EconTalk 播客剧集，按类别：

* As an Amazon Associate, Econlib earns from qualifying purchases.

* 作为亚马逊合作伙伴，Econlib 通过符合条件的购买赚取收入。

Russ Roberts: Today is July 3rd, 2026, and my guest is former U.S. Senator and former president of the University of Florida, Ben Sasse.

拉斯·罗伯茨：今天是 2026 年 7 月 3 日，我的嘉宾是美国前参议员、佛罗里达大学前校长本·萨斯。

Ben, welcome to EconTalk.

本，欢迎来到 EconTalk。

Ben Sasse: Good to be with you, my friend.

Ben Sasse：很高兴和你在一起，我的朋友。

I'm a listener, so it's an honor to be invited on.

我是一名听众，所以很荣幸被邀请。

Russ Roberts: Privilege to have you as a guest.

拉斯·罗伯茨：很荣幸邀请您作为客人。

Russ Roberts: Let's start briefly with a thumbnail about your health situation.

拉斯·罗伯茨：让我们先简单介绍一下您的健康状况。

Tell listeners about your diagnosis and where you are right now.

告诉听众您的诊断以及您现在的情况。

Because people care.

因为人们关心。

Ben Sasse: Thank you.

本·萨斯：谢谢。

I'm happy to spend time on whatever you want.

我很乐意花时间做你想做的事情。

Cancer is one of my least favorite topics, but we'll do the mix as you prefer.

癌症是我最不喜欢的话题之一，但我们会根据您的喜好进行混合。

Next week, or at the end of this weekend, I will be six months and three weeks since being told I only had 90 days to live.

下周，或者这个周末结束时，距离我被告知我的生命只剩下 90 天，已经过去了六个月零三周。

So, I'm on borrowed time.

所以，我的时间是借来的。

We all are, in a sense, but we're here with three kids ranging from 15 to 25.

从某种意义上说，我们都是这样，但我们是带着三个 15 岁到 25 岁的孩子来到这里的。

Every extra bonus week, month, dinner, 4th of July to blow some stuff up for freedom--it feels like a pretty great blessing.

每一个额外的奖金周、月、晚餐、7 月 4 日，为了自由而炸掉一些东西——这感觉就像是一个非常伟大的祝福。

So, my wife and my short hand is--after a terrible diagnosis, we'd say there are currently two small bads and one pretty dang good.

所以，我的妻子和我的短手是——在一次可怕的诊断之后，我们会说目前有两个小坏处和一个非常好的好地方。

So, I have pancreatic cancer that had metastasized to five other systems.

所以，我患有胰腺癌，已经转移到其他五个系统。

I presented as far-along Stage Four.

我在第四阶段中表现出色。

Pancreatic is 87% death rate overall, but 97% death rate within 12 months if you're Stage Four, and I was advanced Stage Four.

胰腺癌的总体死亡率为 87%，但如果您处于第四阶段，则 12 个月内死亡率为 97%，而我已进入第四阶段。

So, to be pushing seven months when you had 90 days to live is pretty great.

所以，当你的生命只剩下 90 天时，能坚持到 7 个月就已经很不错了。

And, that's because of the really wonderful experience of being on daraxonrasib, this new miracle drug at UCSF [UCSF] and a few other places, that's a RAS [renin-angiotensin system] inhibitor.

而且，这是因为使用 daraxonrasib 的经历非常美妙，这是 UCSF [UCSF] 和其他一些地方的一种新的神奇药物，它是 RAS [肾素-血管紧张素系统] 抑制剂。

If you're 80-something, pancreatic cancer might be environmental.

如果您是 80 多岁，胰腺癌可能与环境有关。

If you're 50 something, like I am, it's almost always a genetic mutation.

如果你像我一样 50 多岁，那几乎总是基因突变。

89% of people have a RAS mutation.

89% 的人有 RAS 突变。

So, this new drug--there hadn't been good news in pancreatic cancer in 40 years--this new drug essentially tries to inhibit the RAS mutation's ability to toggle the on-off switches the wrong way.

因此，这种新药——40 年来一直没有关于胰腺癌的好消息——这种新药本质上是试图抑制 RAS 突变以错误的方式切换开关的能力。

The great news is my tumors are down over 80% right now.

好消息是我的肿瘤现在减少了 80% 以上。

The bad news is, it's probably not going to be a cure for me because I presented so far along and so metastasized, but this drug is going to be super-interesting over the next two to ten years.

坏消息是，它可能无法治愈我，因为我到目前为止已经出现并且已经转移，但这种药物在未来两到十年内将变得非常有趣。

My two rough byproducts right now of a really aggressive dose of chemo are a real hard time growing skin and hair, so my root follicles on my head are all kind of tingly and falling out and bleeding all the time.

我现在接受的大剂量化疗的两个粗糙副产品是皮肤和头发的生长非常困难，所以我头上的根毛囊一直有刺痛感、脱落和流血。

So, my scalp is real a bloody mess, but I have an amazing dermatological oncology team at MD Anderson [Monroe Dunaway Anderson].

所以，我的头皮真的一团糟，但我在 MD 安德森 [Monroe Dunaway Anderson] 拥有一支令人惊叹的皮肤肿瘤学团队。

We're making a little bit of progress.

我们正在取得一点点进展。

I used to have the same problem on my face; we've largely resolved that.

我以前脸上也有同样的问题；我们已经基本解决了这个问题。

And, I'm super nauseous.

而且，我超级恶心。

So, I puke four or five times a day.

所以，我一天会吐四五次。

So, if I need to pause our EconTalk, it's not because I'm ducking your question.

所以，如果我需要暂停我们的 EconTalk，并不是因为我回避你的问题。

Russ Roberts: No problem.

拉斯·罗伯茨：没问题。

It's an unusual request for guests, but I'm here for you, Ben, obviously.

这对客人来说是一个不寻常的要求，但显然我是为你而来，本。

Russ Roberts: It's interesting: you said you're going to blow up some stuff for freedom.

拉斯·罗伯茨：这很有趣：你说过你会为了自由而炸掉一些东西。

Pride in America is, as it is in many Western countries, controversial.

与许多西方国家一样，美国的自豪感也存在争议。

And, it's interesting to me--I know it was a one-liner--but the thing you chose to emphasize was freedom.

而且，这对我来说很有趣——我知道这是一句俏皮话——但你选择强调的是自由。

Say something about those two things--the pride and the freedom.

谈谈这两件事——骄傲和自由。

Ben Sasse: I mean, on pride, very briefly.

本·萨斯：我的意思是，关于骄傲，非常简单。

As a Reagan fan, it's my obligation to cite him a lot.

作为里根的粉丝，我有义务经常引用他的话。

Freedom is always only one generation away from extinction.

自由总是距离消亡只有一代人的时间。

So, if you believe in this unbelievable constitutional system, you need to teach it.

所以，如果你相信这个令人难以置信的宪法制度，你就需要教导它。

You need to pass it along.

你需要把它传递下去。

It doesn't happen in the bloodstream.

它不会发生在血液中。

It has to be taught.

它必须被教导。

America is an idea.

美国是一个想法。

It's more than that, but it's certainly not less than that.

不仅如此，但肯定也不少于。

And, we haven't done it since the 1960s, in some ways.

而且，从某些方面来说，我们自 20 世纪 60 年代以来就没有这样做过。

We had all sorts of important advances racially in the Civil Rights movement, but then we had all these other problems, and we basically just had a late-1960s to mid-1970s quiet phase of 'Let's not scream at each other so much, but let's definitely not do basic civics.' So, it's not surprising that our kids don't know it.

我们在民权运动中在种族方面取得了各种重要的进步，但随后我们遇到了所有其他问题，我们基本上只是经历了 20 世纪 60 年代末到 70 年代中期的安静阶段，“我们不要互相尖叫，但我们绝对不要做基本的公民事务。”因此，我们的孩子不知道这一点并不奇怪。

You and I have in common having been college presidents.

你和我的共同点是都曾担任过大学校长。

And I remember the first time I became a college president in 2009, 1910: I read a bunch of data about 18-to-25-year-olds, and it was crazy.

我还记得 2009 年、1910 年我第一次成为大学校长时：我读到了一堆关于 18 至 25 岁年轻人的数据，这太疯狂了。

And things are much worse now, nearly 20 years later, but something like 41% of kids thought the First Amendment was dangerous because you might use your freedom to say something that hurts somebody else's feelings.

近 20 年后的今天，情况变得更糟了，但大约 41% 的孩子认为第一修正案是危险的，因为你可能会利用你的自由说出伤害别人感情的话。

It's kind of the whole point of America, is that words are not violence, and we protect each other from violence so you can debate with words.

这就是美国的全部要点，那就是言语不是暴力，我们保护彼此免受暴力，这样你就可以用言语进行辩论。

So, I think part of our problem is we haven't done civics.

所以，我认为我们的部分问题是我们没有做好公民工作。

Another big part of our problem is: capitalism is so wonderfully productive and effective--best economic system the world has ever known, as you know far better than I--but we are so rich.

我们问题的另一个重要部分是：资本主义是如此的生产力和效率——世界上最好的经济体系，你比我更清楚——但我们是如此富有。

Median, middle-class Americans, richest people any time and place in all of human history, and affluenza has got a lot of downsides, a lot of drug side-effects to it.

美国中产阶级、中产阶级、人类历史上任何时间、任何地点的最富有的人，流感有很多缺点，有很多药物副作用。

And, I think we're very distracted, and very confused, and we don't know a lot of necessity.

而且，我认为我们非常心烦意乱，非常困惑，而且我们不知道很多必要性。

So, people don't know what it would be like to not really have freedom of religion, speech, press, assembly, right of protest.

所以，人们不知道如果没有真正的宗教、言论、新闻、集会和抗议权会是什么样子。

So, you asked why I emphasize freedom.

那么，你问我为什么强调自由。

I'll stop there.

我就到此为止。

I think religious liberty, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly--these things are core to souls.

我认为宗教自由、言论自由、集会自由——这些东西是灵魂的核心。

Souls can't be compelled.

灵魂是无法被强迫的。

So, I think America's political system comports the best with human dignity.

所以，我认为美国的政治制度最符合人类尊严。

Russ Roberts: You mention, you identified--the way you described it, I think, was 'an unbelievable constitutional system.' And, we have the same system today that we had 10 years ago, 20 years ago.

拉斯·罗伯茨：我认为，你提到，你所描述的方式是“一个令人难以置信的宪政体系”。而且，我们今天拥有与 10 年前、20 年前相同的系统。

You can debate at some point there were tweaks and changes, but the overall system hasn't changed.

您可以在某些时候争论是否进行了调整和更改，但整个系统并没有改变。

It's a republic, and it's a constitutional republic; and it has an Electoral College.

这是共和制，而且是宪政共和制；它有一个选举团。

And some of those features are non-negotiable--meaning without a Constitutional Amendment, there's going to be an Electoral College.

其中一些功能是不可协商的——这意味着如果没有宪法修正案，就会有选举团制度。

A lot of people don't like it.

很多人不喜欢它。

But, what I've noticed over the last 25 years or so, and at least it seems to me--and you have a much better window on this--many of what Lord Moulton called the unenforceable pieces of that system that we used to be obedient to--the norms that limited what you could do--have eroded.

但是，我在过去 25 年左右的时间里注意到的，至少在我看来——你对此有一个更好的了解——莫尔顿勋爵所说的我们过去必须遵守的系统中许多不可执行的部分——限制你能做的事情的规范——已经被侵蚀了。

And executive power--long before Trump--started to expand.

行政权力早在特朗普之前就开始扩大。

It's decades old.

已有几十年历史了。

And I'm curious if you agree with that as a serious problem.

我很好奇你是否同意这是一个严重的问题。

In particular, given the extraordinary system, a lot of that system was held together by these norms, by what was expected of politicians, and what was not acceptable, and what was considered gauche or expedient.

特别是，考虑到这个非凡的体系，该体系的很多内容都是由这些规范、对政治家的期望、不可接受的内容以及被认为粗俗或权宜之计的内容结合在一起的。

And, I think a lot of those have fallen away.

而且，我认为其中很多已经消失了。

Do you agree with me?

你同意我的观点吗？

Ben Sasse: I do.

本·萨斯：我愿意。

I think executive overreach is a problem, but it's a reactive problem.

我认为高管越权是一个问题，但这是一个反应性问题。

The far bigger problem, in my view, is legislative underreach, which set up this moment.

在我看来，更大的问题是立法力度不够，这就是此刻造成的。

So, I was running for office--I'd never run for anything before in my life till running for the Senate.

所以，我正在竞选公职——在竞选参议员之前，我从来没有竞选过任何东西。

I was 41, it was 2013, and I kind of get drafted into the open Senate race in Nebraska.

2013 年，我 41 岁，差不多被选中参加内布拉斯加州的公开参议员竞选。

So, President Obama is in his second term, and I started thinking a lot about pen-and-phone kind of theories, nonsensical stuff that President Obama said--that President Trump now essentially says, 'Hold my beer.' Those things happen partly because the public is so impatient--understandably impatient--about the legislature to tackle big problems.

所以，奥巴马总统已经进入第二个任期，我开始思考很多关于笔和电话之类的理论，奥巴马总统所说的无意义的东西——特朗普总统现在基本上是说，“别喝啤酒了。”发生这些事情的部分原因是公众对立法机关解决重大问题如此不耐烦——这是可以理解的不耐烦。

We don't have an entitlement state that makes any mathematical sense at all.

我们根本没有任何数学意义的权利状态。

And most people aren't paying attention; but to the degree people pay attention, there's new monetary theory nuttiness on the far Left, and maybe some people in the post-liberal Right now echo the same silly math.

大多数人都没有注意到；但就人们关注的程度而言，极左派有新的货币理论疯狂，也许后自由主义右派中的一些人现在也赞同同样愚蠢的数学。

But, mostly when people pay attention, they know, 'Holy crap, our entitlement state is going to bankrupt us.

但是，大多数情况下，当人们注意到时，他们知道，‘天哪，我们的权利国家会让我们破产。

What are we going to do?

我们要做什么？

We used to have 16 workers per retiree.

过去，我们有 16 名工人与一名退休人员。

We're on our way to two and a half workers per retiree.

我们正朝着每名退休人员配备两名半工人的目标迈进。

We got to figure this out.' And, the legislature doesn't do anything.

我们必须解决这个问题。而且，立法机关什么也没做。

And so, I think the problems of social media and the digital revolution--awesome in many ways, but I'm sure we'll talk about some of the problems--they came to the legislature early, and the legislature became performative early on and stopped doing real work.

因此，我认为社交媒体和数字革命的问题——在很多方面都很棒，但我相信我们会讨论其中的一些问题——它们很早就来到了立法机关，而立法机关很早就变得表现出来，不再做真正的工作。

So, I think the executive understandably fills that vacuum.

因此，我认为这位高管填补了这一真空，这是可以理解的。

Not defensively, but understandably.

不是出于防御，但可以理解。

Russ Roberts: Yeah, I agree with that.

拉斯·罗伯茨：是的，我同意这一点。

So, you've been very critical--

所以，你一直很挑剔——

Ben Sasse: Actually, can I say one more tiny on that?

Ben Sasse：实际上，我可以再多说一点吗？

Ben Sasse: I still teach occasionally.

Ben Sasse：我偶尔也会教书。

Lord willing, I might teach again this fall if I get bonus months.

如果上帝保佑，如果我能得到几个月的奖金，我可能会在今年秋天再次教书。

I think it's a useful exercise when you're deep in reading one period to just do a small thought experiment.

我认为，当你深入阅读某一时期的内容并做一个小小的思想实验时，这是一个有用的练习。

What's most different to them if they were transported to our age?

如果他们来到我们这个时代，与他们最大的不同是什么？

So, tomorrow being the 4th of July, it's worth lingering in the 1770s or 1780s once in a while.

所以，明天就是 7 月 4 日，偶尔在 1770 年代或 1780 年代徘徊是值得的。

And, if you're in Philadelphia in 1787 and they came to today, obviously they'd be stunned by our material largesse and by technological revolutions.

而且，如果你在 1787 年的费城，而他们来到今天，显然他们会对我们的物质慷慨和技术革命感到震惊。

But, I think they'd also be stunned at an anthropological level by politicians that aren't jealous of their prerogatives.

但是，我认为他们也会在人类学层面上对不嫉妒他们的特权的政客感到震惊。

Like, to be in the legislature and not want to legislate--that's weird.

就像，在立法机关却不想立法——这很奇怪。

And, we definitely have a legislature that doesn't really want to legislate.

而且，我们的立法机关肯定并不想立法。

I ran part of the transition project for Mitt Romney in summer of 2012.

2012 年夏天，我负责了米特·罗姆尼 (Mitt Romney) 过渡项目的一部分。

If he had won the White House, how would he structure his team?

如果他入主白宫，他将如何组建他的团队？

So, I interviewed every living Chief of Staff from the White House at that point.

因此，我采访了当时在世的每一位白宫幕僚长。

And, one of the things that I heard that just kind of stunned me was, I would ask a basic strategy consultant question: 'What did you think it was going to be like?

而且，我听到的让我有点震惊的一件事是，我会问一个基本的战略顾问问题：‘你认为它会是什么样子？

And when you got in there, three or six months in, what most stunned you?' And, in both parties, they said something similar: 'I can't believe when a senior member of the legislature--a senior Senator, a Committee Chairman of my own party--comes to us and asks us to do by Executive Order things that are popular and that they have the power to do.

当你进入那里三六个月后，最让你震惊的是什么？而且，在两党中，他们都说了类似的话：“我不敢相信，立法机关的一位高级成员——一位资深参议员，我所在政党的委员会主席——来到我们这里，要求我们按照行政命令做一些受欢迎的、他们有权力做的事情。”

And they ask us to do it by Executive Order instead of legislation.'

他们要求我们通过行政命令而不是立法来做到这一点。

And, I said, 'That is weird.

我说，‘这很奇怪。

Why would that be?' And, he said, 'A senior Senator told me one time'--it was a Democratic Chief of Staff--'a senior Senator of my own party said, it's like this: If it's a 70/30 issue, I'd still kind of rather not vote on it because the 70% are going to get the outcome they want if we do it by Executive Order.

为什么会这样呢？而且，他说，“有一次，一位资深参议员告诉我”——那是一位民主党办公厅主任——“我所在政党的一位资深参议员说，事情是这样的：如果这是一个 70/30 的问题，我仍然宁愿不投票，因为如果我们通过行政命令这样做，70% 的人将得到他们想要的结果。

And, if I'm lobbying you to do it, I get to tell all the key grasstops back in my state that I was lobbying you to do it, and now it's going to happen.

而且，如果我游说你这样做，我就可以告诉我所在州的所有关键高层，我曾游说你这样做，现在这件事就会发生。

So, the 70% is basically going to be happy.

所以，70%的人基本上会感到高兴。

But the 30% is going to be pissed off either way.

但无论如何，那 30% 的人都会生气。

Why should they be pissed at me ?

他们为什么要生我的气？

Let's let them be pissed at you, an endless bureaucrat.'

让他们生你的气吧，你这个没完没了的官僚。”

That's weird.

这很奇怪。

The Founders wouldn't be able to make sense of that.

创始人无法理解这一点。

Russ Roberts: Yeah, it's a great thought experiment.

拉斯·罗伯茨：是的，这是一个很棒的思想实验。

I think the other part of it, of course, is the extension and growth of the Administrative State, which I see also as part of the abdication of responsibility by the Legislative Branch.

当然，我认为另一部分是行政国家的延伸和发展，我认为这也是立法部门放弃责任的一部分。

And, it's basically--it's what you said.

而且，基本上就是你所说的。

It's a performative--embracing of the performative.

这是一种表演——对表演的拥抱。

It's a shirking of responsibility.

这是一种推卸责任。

And it's just a different norm than we usually think of.

这只是与我们通常认为的不同的规范。

I mean, you're there to make the country better--and that's a little naive for me to say that.

我的意思是，你们的存在是为了让这个国家变得更好——我这么说有点天真。

I'm a big Public Choice fan.

我是公共选择的忠实粉丝。

But at least you should tell yourself that.

但至少你应该告诉自己这一点。

But, somewhere along the line, we got out of that habit.

但是，在这个过程中，我们戒掉了这个习惯。

I don't know why.

我不知道为什么。

Ben Sasse: Agreed all around.

Ben Sasse：大家都同意。

I mean, I've said a bunch of pessimistic things so far, so let's at least do a thumbs up for something: The Originalism Movement on the Court over the last couple decades, and in particular, a lot of the nominees who are associated with the FedSoc [Federalist Society] movement.

我的意思是，到目前为止我已经说了很多悲观的事情，所以让我们至少对一些事情竖起大拇指：过去几十年来法院的原旨主义运动，特别是与 FedSoc [联邦主义协会]运动相关的许多提名人。

But, there is a healthy thing happening post-Chevron to roll back some of these delegations of authority to nameless, faceless bureaucrats.

但是，雪佛龙之后发生了一件健康的事情，将一些权力委托给无名、不露面的官僚。

I mean, again, bureaucrats, by and large, aren't bad people.

我的意思是，总的来说，官僚并不是坏人。

I think of Weber's distinction between entrepreneurial managers and bureaucratic managers: A bureaucratic manager is supposed to sustain an institution.

我想到了韦伯对企业家型管理者和官僚型管理者的区别：官僚型管理者应该维持一个机构。

An entrepreneurial manager is shifting resources and doing new things.

企业家经理正在转移资源并做新事情。

But, we want, in our system, the people who do new things to be accountable to voters and to be fireable.

但是，我们希望在我们的系统中，那些做新事物的人对选民负责并被解雇。

And so, I think that this delegation of authorities to the Administrative State--Obamacare is kind of mathematically most egregious example--in the law, there are, like, 1200 either explicit or inferred places where it says, 'Dot-dot-dot the Executive Branch shall finish the law.' Obamacare says: 'It will be illegal to offer a health insurance policy that doesn't meet an essential minimum benefits care package.' What's that?

因此，我认为向行政国家授权——奥巴马医改是数学上最令人震惊的例子——在法律中，有大约 1200 个明确或推断的地方说，“行政部门应该完成法律。”奥巴马医改称：“提供不符合基本最低福利护理方案的健康保险政策将是非法的。”那是什么？

Does it include in vitro ?

包括体外吗？

Does it include hair plugs?

包含发夹吗？

Somebody has got to vote on that.

必须有人对此进行投票。

And, they just decided: Let's not vote on any of that because it will expose us to things that are unpopular.

而且，他们刚刚决定：我们不要对任何事情进行投票，因为这会让我们接触到不受欢迎的事情。

And it would be complicated.

这会很复杂。

So, how about we just legislate in a way that says people inside HHS [Health and Human Services] bureaucracy, they'll make all the decisions about the essential minimum benefits package.

那么，我们如何立法，让 HHS（卫生与公众服务部）官僚机构内部的人员就基本的最低福利计划做出所有决定。

Russ Roberts: And of course, they'll say, if pressed, 'Well, but they're the experts.' But that's not really the right point, because the whole essential challenge of any policy like that is getting the trade-offs right.

拉斯·罗伯茨：当然，如果被追问，他们会说，“好吧，但他们是专家。”但这并不是真正正确的观点，因为任何此类政策的全部基本挑战都是做出正确的权衡。

Which is not an expertise issue: it's a values issue and a responsibility issue.

这不是专业知识问题：这是价值观问题和责任问题。

Ben Sasse: Great--I mean, what a great sentence.

Ben Sasse：太棒了——我的意思是，这句话多棒啊。

Because, we do have a major problem in a world--the great world of ubiquitous information has tons of upsides.

因为，我们的世界确实面临着一个重大问题——信息无处不在的伟大世界有很多好处。

But, one of it means is expertise domains will shrink because more people have access to this information.

但是，其中之一意味着专业领域将会缩小，因为更多的人可以获得这些信息。

And, your point about expertise is not a way to just bumper-sticker shirk responsibility for hard trade-off choices.

而且，你关于专业知识的观点并不是仅仅在保险杠上贴上贴纸来逃避艰难权衡选择的责任。

Russ Roberts: If you could pass one piece of legislation, what would it be?

拉斯·罗伯茨：如果你可以通过一项立法，它会是什么？

And, has the answer to that question changed over time for you?

而且，随着时间的推移，这个问题的答案对你来说有变化吗？

Ben Sasse: Wow, that's really good.

本·萨斯：哇，那真是太好了。

And, it's so simple.

而且，就是这么简单。

It should have been something I've thought a lot about, and I don't think I have.

这应该是我想了很多的事情，但我想我没有。

So, let me nibble around the edges en route to a big answer.

所以，让我在寻找一个重要答案的过程中慢慢探索。

First day in office, January 3rd, I think, 2015, I introduced a term limit Constitutional Amendment for term limits on Senators.

就职第一天，即 1 月 3 日，我想是 2015 年，我提出了一项限制参议员任期的宪法修正案。

That's not the most important thing, but it's what I went with first because, as a believer in the George Washington/Cincinnatus tradition, I think a professional ambitious class to go to Washington, the center of the world, and stay forever--I'm saying 'center of the world' cynically: Dodge County, Nebraska, zip code 68025, on the North Banks of the Platte River, where I sit today, that's the center of the world, brother.

这不是最重要的，但这是我首先选择的，因为，作为乔治·华盛顿/辛辛那图斯传统的信徒，我认为一个雄心勃勃的职业阶层应该去华盛顿，世界中心，并永远停留——我玩世不恭地说“世界中心”：内布拉斯加州道奇县，邮政编码 68025，位于普拉特河北岸，我今天坐的地方，那是世界的中心世界，兄弟。

I think a two-term limit on the Senate would mean a much healthier institution.

我认为参议院的两届任期限制意味着一个更健康的机构。

And actually, if I could just amend the constitution straight up, I might do one 10- or 12-year term.

事实上，如果我能直接修改宪法，我可能会连任一个 10 年或 12 年的任期。

They'd still be staggered so that the Senate would be a continuing body, but people to serve in the--the Founders had a vision of a mixed system, and there is supposed to be a temporary aristocratic element, at least in terms of your insulation from public opinion, in one part of the legislature.

他们仍然会交错，以便参议院成为一个连续的机构，但在开国元勋中服务的人们有一个混合制度的愿景，并且应该有一个临时的贵族元素，至少在与公众舆论隔离方面，在立法机构的一个部分。

The House is supposed to be a populist body.

众议院应该是一个民粹主义机构。

That'd be pretty important.

那将非常重要。

A short-term one I do this summer is I just make sure that the Congress doesn't pass this ridiculous idea of mandating cameras in the Supreme Court, which I think will be so obviously disastrous within 18 months.

我今年夏天做的一项短期工作是确保国会不会通过强制最高法院安装摄像头的荒谬想法，我认为这在 18 个月内显然会造成灾难性的后果。

There's no transparency problem in the Supreme Court right now.

目前最高法院不存在透明度问题。

Pen and pad are allowed everywhere.

笔和便笺簿随处可见。

We get audio.

我们得到音频。

But, if you put cameras in there, it's going to be a platform for jackassery on Instagram and TikTok, the same way the legislature is.

但是，如果你把摄像头放在那里，它就会成为 Instagram 和 TikTok 上胡言乱语的平台，就像立法机关一样。

There's a reason why no hearings work except for Intel [Senate Intelligence Committee] in the Congress, and that's because Intel, we don't have cameras, so there's no reason for people to act like a douchebag pretending they know everything with a five-minute self-aggrandizing speech that maybe has a question at the end.

除了国会中的英特尔[参议院情报委员会]之外，没有听证会起作用是有原因的，那是因为英特尔，我们没有摄像头，所以人们没有理由表现得像个傻瓜，假装他们知道一切，进行五分钟的自我夸大演讲，最后可能有一个问题。

In the Senate Intel Committee, you say, 'Hey, Director Burns, if the CCP [Chinese Communist Party] is doing this, I don't understand how that makes sense.

在参议院情报委员会，你说，‘嘿，伯恩斯主任，如果中国共产党正在这样做，我不明白这有什么意义。

What's up?' The question is, I'm confused about this apparent contradiction.

这是怎么回事？'问题是，我对这种明显的矛盾感到困惑。

What senator would ever say that in public if it becomes a soundbite that they look stupid ?

哪个参议员会在公开场合说，如果这成为一段简短的片段，他们看起来很愚蠢？

So, you got to get reelected.

所以，你必须再次当选。

Anyway, that's a short-term one.

无论如何，这只是短期的。

But, I think probably my two biggest bundles--and I don't have precise legislation for you, but I'll just name categories--are: One, we have to fix our entitlements.

但是，我认为我最大的两个目标可能是：一是我们必须确定我们的权利。

Bankrupting the next generation is unfair.

让下一代破产是不公平的。

And right now, most of the public still thinks of government like it's the military with a few social safety net programs.

目前，大多数公众仍然认为政府就像拥有一些社会安全网计划的军队。

The FISC [?fiscal portion of U.S. spending?] is actually Medicare, Medicaid, Obamacare, Social Security, interest on the debt.

FISC [“美国支出的财政部分”] 实际上是医疗保险、医疗补助、奥巴马医改、社会保障、债务利息。

That's more than 70% of spending.

这占了支出的70%以上。

And then, less than 30% is half-and-half national security and non-defense discretionary.

然后，不到30%是国家安全和非国防自由裁量权各占一半。

You can't spend two-thirds of all your money on entitlements that are on autopilot when we've got wonderful life-expanding health technologies and growing life expectancy in most categories.

当我们拥有出色的延长生命的健康技术和大多数类别的预期寿命不断增长时，你不能将三分之二的钱花在自动驾驶的权利上。

So, we need to fix the Entitlement State.

因此，我们需要修复权利状态。

And then, I think we also should be grappling with the question of what mid-career job disruption looks like.

然后，我认为我们还应该解决职业生涯中期工作中断是什么样子的问题。

This is a lot less money, but I think, as a free trader, both trade mitigation logic and job disruption at age 35, 40, 45, 50, those programs should be transferring money in a way that's actually successful at getting mid-career people realigned with economic needs.

这钱少了很多，但我认为，作为一名自由贸易者，无论是贸易缓解逻辑还是 35、40、45、50 岁的工作中断，这些计划都应该以一种实际上成功地让职业中期人员重新适应经济需求的方式转移资金。

Not just: if you're 45 and you become unemployed, you're likely to be unemployed forever, and now you're just on the dole.

不仅仅是：如果你 45 岁了，然后失业了，你很可能会永远失业，而现在你只能靠救济金领取。

So, that's a subset of entitlements, but I think economic and job retraining stuff is going to be particularly important in the AI [artificial intelligence] revolution.

所以，这是权利的一个子集，但我认为经济和工作再培训在人工智能革命中将特别重要。

Russ Roberts: You said 70%.

拉斯·罗伯茨：你说的是 70%。

It was those things--you made a list.

就是那些事情——你列了一个清单。

I'm not checking you while we're talking.

我们谈话时我不会检查你。

Ben Sasse: Please do.

本·萨斯：请这样做。

You got better math than I.

你的数学比我好。

Russ Roberts: I'm curious.

拉斯·罗伯茨：我很好奇。

You still pay attention.

你还是注意一下吧。

You're not a senator.

你不是参议员。

You keep up, right?

你坚持下去，对吧？

Ben Sasse: I mostly keep up on intel stuff.

Ben Sasse：我主要关注英特尔方面的内容。

I'm worried about the long-term civilizational race around tech with the CCP, but I keep up a little bit.

我担心与中共围绕科技展开的长期文明竞赛，但我还是坚持了下来。

I write for the Wall Street Journal occasionally.

我偶尔为《华尔街日报》撰稿。

Russ Roberts: Let's shift gears.

拉斯·罗伯茨：让我们换个方向吧。

You started your career in education at a small college.

您在一所小型大学开始了您的教育职业生涯。

I forgot the name of it.

我忘记了它的名字。

Ben Sasse: Midland University.

本·萨斯：米德兰大学。

It used to be called Midland Lutheran College.

它曾经被称为米德兰路德学院。

Ben Sasse: When I got there, 600.

Ben Sasse：当我到达那里时，600。

When we left, we'd almost tripled it.

当我们离开时，我们的数量几乎增加了两倍。

The denominator was small, but we were one of the fastest growing schools in America.

分母很小，但我们是美国发展最快的学校之一。

Russ Roberts: What did you learn from that experience, and what was different when you got to the University of Florida?

拉斯·罗伯茨：你从那次经历中学到了什么？当你进入佛罗里达大学时有什么不同？

Besides everything?

除了一切？

Ben Sasse: Okay, maybe two things I learned.

Ben Sasse：好吧，也许我学到了两件事。

One is my grandpa--my dad was a high school football coach, but he was the first person in our family to ever go to college.

其中一个是我的爷爷——我的爸爸是一名高中橄榄球教练，但他是我们家里第一个上大学的人。

His dad came back from World War II, never had a day of education after age 18, worked his way up at this college, and became the Executive Vice President.

他的父亲从二战中回来，18 岁之后就没有上过一天学，他在这所大学里一步步晋升，并成为执行副校长。

He basically ran everything except the faculty side of the institution, but he himself was not a college grad.

他基本上管理着除教职员工之外的所有事务，但他本人并不是大学毕业生。

And this little local, rural, religious college is such a Tocquevillian grasstop sense of what community looks like.

这所当地的小型宗教学院是托克维尔式的草上社区形象。

I've always loved Tocqueville, but I feel like when he talks about going from DC [Washington, D.C.]--which isn't the center of the world to Tocqueville, to, I think there are 25 states at that time--he goes to 17 state capitals and finds that not only is the center of American life not politics in DC, it's also not even politics locally .

我一直很喜欢托克维尔，但我觉得当他谈到从DC（华盛顿特区）——不是世界中心到托克维尔，到我认为当时有25个州——17个州的首府时，他发现华盛顿不仅不是美国生活的中心，甚至也不是当地的政治。

It's entrepreneurial projects.

这是创业项目。

Not just for-profit, but entrepreneurial things.

不仅仅是为了盈利，而是为了创业。

So, I always say in speeches, it's the Rotary Club.

所以，我总是在演讲中说，这是扶轮社。

The Rotary Club didn't exist in the 1830s and 1840s, but it's the Rotary Club.

扶轮社在 1830 年代和 1840 年代并不存在，但它就是扶轮社。

Midland Lutheran College is that.

米德兰路德学院就是这样的。

So: One, it's just a community institution.

所以：第一，它只是一个社区机构。

I love the place.

我喜欢这个地方。

Go Warriors.

去勇士吧

Number Two, 18-to 22-year-olds are so different now than 35 years ago when I was graduating high school.

第二，现在 18 至 22 岁的人与 35 年前我高中毕业时的情况有很大不同。

This is not an old man, terminal diagnosis standing on my lawn screaming at the kids, 'Get off my lawn.' We're so dang rich because of consumer capitalism that 18-year-olds, by and large, in America have never worked yet.

这不是一个站在我的草坪上对孩子们尖叫“滚出我的草坪”的绝症老人。由于消费资本主义，我们变得如此富有，以至于美国 18 岁的年轻人基本上还没有工作过。

And that, for human history past for millennia, until 35 years ago, would just blow anybody's mind.

对于过去数千年、直到 35 年前的人类历史来说，这只会让任何人大吃一惊。

During the American Revolution still, I think the number is 30% of all labor on farms in America was supplied by people under 14 years old.

仍然在美国革命期间，我认为美国农场所有劳动力的 30% 是由 14 岁以下的人提供的。

Like, it's a lot.

就像，很多。

And, 18-year-olds had already learned to work, and then they went to school.

而且，18岁的人已经学会了工作，然后就去上学了。

And, for you, as President of a college, you know this: That a student who is ambitious about their curiosity, that they want to figure out how to better themselves to serve, they want to think God's thoughts after Him, they want to wrestle with the good, the true, and the beautiful--that's a completely different student than one that's in Grade 13.

而且，对于你来说，作为一所大学的校长，你知道这一点：一个对自己的好奇心充满雄心的学生，他们想要弄清楚如何更好地服务，他们想要思考上帝的想法，他们想要与善、真和美搏斗——这是一个与 13 年级的学生完全不同的学生。

And, by and large, our 18- and 19-year-olds are still kind of in grade school.

总的来说，我们 18 岁和 19 岁的孩子还处于小学阶段。

They're passive.

他们是被动的。

They're on receive mode.

他们处于接收模式。

They're indoors, sitting still all the time.

他们在室内，一直一动不动地坐着。

That's not what college and university is supposed to be like.

这不是学院和大学应该有的样子。

It's not the free-for-all of a library.

这不是图书馆的免费活动。

A school is different than a library.

学校与图书馆不同。

But it's still supposed to be a place where the student's curiosity is propelling them forward, and then they're availing themselves to Great Books and lectures and professors and mentors and wisdom.

但它仍然应该是学生的好奇心推动他们前进的地方，然后他们可以利用伟大的书籍、讲座、教授、导师和智慧。

And, I think right now college has become a delayed adolescence project, and we need to do better.

而且，我认为现在大学已经成为一个延迟青春期的项目，我们需要做得更好。

I won't do your University of Florida question, small versus big, yet because you need to talk again.

我不会回答你佛罗里达大学的问题，无论是小问题还是大问题，因为你需要再谈一次。

Morphine brain.

吗啡大脑。

Didn't mean to monologue at you like that.

无意对你这样独白。

Russ Roberts: No, no, keep going.

拉斯·罗伯茨：不，不，继续。

I mean, I've never been a college administrator until I came here in Jerusalem to Shalem College, and it's an exhilarating entrepreneurial experience.

我的意思是，在我来到耶路撒冷沙勒姆学院之前，我从未担任过大学管理人员，这是一次令人兴奋的创业经历。

I actually asked Claude what I could have done better in my career.

我实际上问克劳德在我的职业生涯中我可以做得更好。

This is after somebody sent me a congratulatory note--based on AI.

这是在有人给我发了一封基于人工智能的贺信之后。

And, one of the things it said was, 'Why did you waste your time being the president of a college with your last job?' And I thought, 'Well, you don't know much about this college.

而且，它说的其中一件事是，“你为什么要把你的时间浪费在当一所大学的校长和你的上一份工作上？”我想，‘好吧，你对这所大学了解不多。

You don't know much about Israel.

你对以色列了解不多。

It's a different thing.'

这是另一回事。

But, I get it.

但是，我明白了。

I get the reflex to look down on college administrators.

我本能地瞧不起大学管理人员。

I certainly did before I became a president.

在我成为总统之前我确实做到了。

So, I have learned an immense amount about management, leadership, education, and I can't imagine going to a mega-institution like a state college of the size of Florida.

所以，我学到了很多关于管理、领导力、教育的知识，我无法想象去像佛罗里达州那么大的州立大学这样的大型机构。

So, tell me something.

那么，告诉我一件事。

Ben Sasse: Yeah.

本·萨斯：是的。

So let's set the stage with how big a mega-institution is, because it's gigantic.

因此，让我们先了解一下大型机构有多大，因为它非常庞大。

So, University of Florida, fifth largest school in the country, but it's both flagship and land grant.

佛罗里达大学是美国第五大学校，但它既是旗舰学校又是土地赠款学校。

So, it is Texas and Texas A&M [Texas Agricultural and Mechanical], or Michigan and Michigan State, or UVA [University of Virginia] and VA Tech [Virginia Tech] in the same school.

所以，它是德克萨斯州和德克萨斯A&M[德克萨斯农业和机械]，或者密歇根州和密歇根州立大学，或者UVA[弗吉尼亚大学]和VA Tech[弗吉尼亚理工大学]在同一所学校。

Florida State is the historic women's college, and now it's got broad and some really wonderful programs as well.

佛罗里达州立大学是历史悠久的女子学院，现在它也提供了广泛且非常精彩的课程。

But, people often assume Florida State was the ag school [agricultural school].

但是，人们常常认为佛罗里达州立大学是农业学校。

Florida is both the ag school and the flagship.

佛罗里达州既是农业学校也是旗舰学校。

So, that means we have locations in all 67 counties in Florida.

因此，这意味着我们在佛罗里达州所有 67 个县都设有办事处。

And , at the mothership in Gainesville, the main campus, we have about 85,000 people because we've got a hospital system with between 20,- and 26,000 folks at any given moment.

而且，在主校区盖恩斯维尔的母舰上，我们约有 85,000 名员工，因为我们的医院系统在任何特定时刻都有 20 至 26,000 名员工。

Our instructional faculty--let me pause to get this number right.

我们的教学人员——让我停下来弄清楚这个数字。

Oh man, morphine stinks.

天啊，吗啡太臭了。

You said I still keep up.

你说我还在坚持。

I used to be really good at photographic memory about math--

我曾经对数学的记忆力非常好——

Russ Roberts: There's a lot of them.

拉斯·罗伯茨：有很多。

There's a lot of them.

有很多。

It's okay.

没关系。

Ben Sasse: Well, I think the number is 6,300.

Ben Sasse：嗯，我认为这个数字是 6,300。

The paper that we submit to the accreditors every year: How many people taught a class at the University of Florida last year?

我们每年向认证机构提交的论文：去年佛罗里达大学有多少人教课？

It's north of 6,000 people taught classes at Florida: you know, 42,000 undergrads, 19,000 grad students, etc. But, 6,300 professors.

佛罗里达州有 6,000 名教师，其中包括 42,000 名本科生、19,000 名研究生等。但是，有 6,300 名教授。

Here's one of the core problems with the American university, with the English training college model and the German research bench model: is a glorious wedding if it has been intentionally managed.

美国大学、英国培训学院模式和德国研究台模式的核心问题之一是：如果有意管理的话，它是一场光荣的婚礼。

And what's happened is there's been so much money thrown at it by the federal government over the last 50 or 60 years that it will absorb those resources and do a lot of stupid things.

过去 50 或 60 年来，联邦政府向它投入了大量资金，以至于它会吸收这些资源并做很多愚蠢的事情。

So, most faculty are supposedly teaching, doing research, and having some "service component" that they're measured on.

因此，大多数教师应该都在教学、研究，并有一些衡量他们的“服务成分”。

I'm putting that in scare quotes because it rarely, rarely happens at most institutions.

我将其放在恐吓引号中，因为这种情况在大多数机构中很少发生。

At our university, I think we have about 1.3 billion in total research.

在我们大学，我认为我们的研究总额约为 13 亿美元。

A smaller share of that is externally sponsored dollars that had to be won by competition, but $1.3 billion dollars.

其中一小部分是必须通过竞争赢得的外部赞助资金，但有 13 亿美元。

On paper, a faculty member is supposed to teach a three/three load: You teach three classes fall, three classes spring, unless you get research leave.

从理论上讲，一名教职员工应该教授三/三负荷：秋季教三门课，春季教三门课，除非您获得研究假。

And, our median professor of those 6,300 folks, is on majority research leave.

而且，我们这 6,300 名教授中的大多数人都在休假。

About 60%.

大约60%。

So, the modal faculty teaching experience is somewhere between a one-one and a one-two.

因此，教师的教学体验模式介于一对一和一对二之间。

You're getting 60% research leave.

你有 60% 的研究假。

But, if you rank-order those $1.3 billion dollars, about 80 professors account for more than 95% of the dollars.

但是，如果你对这 13 亿美元进行排序，大约 80 名教授占据了 95% 以上的资金。

So, 1.5% percent of the faculty--this is not an 80/20 rule; this is a 95-to-1 rule--about 1% of the faculty are principal investigators or research team leads, and they're accounting for 95% of the research.

因此，1.5% 的教师——这不是 80/20 的规则；而是 1.5% 的教师比例。这是一个 95 比 1 的规则——大约 1% 的教员是首席研究员或研究团队负责人，他们承担了 95% 的研究工作。

Well, when you do the tail of that curve, it means by the time you get to professor 3150--the median professor--there is no research output.

好吧，当你做那条曲线的尾部时，这意味着当你到达教授 3150（中间教授）时，没有研究成果。

And yet they're still on majority research leave.

然而他们仍然在休大部分研究假。

And so, you've got people who are quite[?] retired to the tune of 60% of their paycheck coming for so-called research output, where there is no research output.

因此，有些人已经退休了，他们的薪水的 60% 都用于所谓的研究成果，而实际上并没有研究成果。

And so, if you look at a lot of the crisis of what's wrong in the Humanities and the Social Sciences, it's faux research.

因此，如果你看看人文学科和社会科学领域的许多错误危机，就会发现这是虚假研究。

Because, essentially a union mindset has absorbed the sort of political activism to say, 'Well, you got to do important stuff.

因为，从本质上讲，工会心态已经吸收了那种政治激进主义，即‘好吧，你必须做重要的事情’。

So, we're going to call this stuff that you believe in--all fine and good to believe lots of stuff.

所以，我们将把你所相信的东西称为——相信很多东西都很好。

We all have lots of avocations--but we're going to call that research or service when it might just be activism on the public payroll.'

我们都有很多爱好——但我们将其称为研究或服务，因为它可能只是公共工资单上的激进主义。

That problem is a giant problem for universities, and AI's disruption is going to be helpful because there's lots of things that aren't really important that are being publicly subsidized, and the public is upset about it.

这个问题对大学来说是一个巨大的问题，人工智能的颠覆将会有所帮助，因为有很多并不重要的事情正在得到公共补贴，而公众对此感到不安。

Russ Roberts: Yeah, I'm just thinking about--I mean, those things are all disturbing, of course.

拉斯·罗伯茨：是的，我只是在想——我的意思是，当然，这些事情都令人不安。

But when I came here, my first goal was to improve the teaching quality of the College.

但来到这里，我的首要目标就是提高学院的教学质量。

And it was already quite good, but my view was it could be better, of course.

它已经相当不错了，但我认为当然还可以更好。

It wasn't my analysis, but it can always be better.

这不是我的分析，但它总是可以更好。

And, how do we get there from here?

而且，我们如何从这里到达那里？

And, I don't think a University of Florida can think about that.

而且，我认为佛罗里达大学不会考虑这一点。

It's not a viable question, partly because of that research money, right?

这不是一个可行的问题，部分原因是研究资金，对吧？

Because nobody is compensated, honored, rewarded for great teaching.

因为没有人会因为伟大的教学而得到补偿、荣誉和奖励。

In fact, it might be just totally ignored, in my experience in research institutions.

事实上，根据我在研究机构的经验，它可能会被完全忽视。

Ben Sasse: Yeah.

本·萨斯：是的。

The former President of the University of Chicago had the great line: We pretend that universities are coherent organizations.

芝加哥大学前校长有一句名言：我们假装大学是连贯的组织。

They are, like, seven different large corporate structures all thrown together.

它们就像七个不同的大型公司结构拼凑在一起。

And at the end of the day, the health system--if you have one, and in Florida, our budget $9.5 billion, about 65% of the money is spread across six campuses with 11 different hospital systems.

归根结底，医疗系统——如果有的话，在佛罗里达州，我们的预算为 95 亿美元，其中约 65% 的资金分布在 6 个校区和 11 个不同的医院系统中。

About 65% of the money is that.

大约65%的钱就是这样。

So, the University of Chicago used to joke, they would say: 97% of our financial exposure is the health system.

所以，芝加哥大学曾经开玩笑说：我们97%的财务风险来自于医疗系统。

And, I have about 3% control--or competence--to be running a giant health operation.

而且，我拥有大约 3% 的控制权——或者说能力——来运营一个庞大的健康业务。

So, education on the side is itself going to be a 25- to 30% enterprise.

因此，教育本身将成为一项 25% 到 30% 的事业。

And then, in that, athletics.

然后，在这方面，田径运动。

And I say this as the son of a coach and former--I was on the wrestling team in college, and the second-most important religion in my life is Nebraska football.

我是作为一名教练和前任教练的儿子这么说的——我在大学时是摔跤队的成员，我生命中第二重要的宗教是内布拉斯加州橄榄球。

So, I love college athletics, but a University of Texas or Ohio State at $330 million, down to a power four school median at maybe $150 million per year--those are big enterprises, and they're important; but it's a teeny fraction of the educational enterprise of a major institution.

所以，我喜欢大学体育运动，但德克萨斯大学或俄亥俄州立大学的年费为 3.3 亿美元，四强学校的中位数每年可能为 1.5 亿美元——这些都是大企业，而且很重要；但这只是大型机构教育事业的一小部分。

And yet most board members and most donors are most interested in that thing, which is this side-project that's just co-branded as junior professional sports--professional football played on Saturday instead of Sunday.

然而，大多数董事会成员和大多数捐助者最感兴趣的是这个项目，这个副项目只是被联合命名为初级职业运动——职业足球在周六而不是周日进行。

So, you end up with this shared governance problem, which is massive.

所以，你最终会遇到这个巨大的共同治理问题。

The accreditors say your institution to have access to federal dollars--Perkins loans, Stafford loans, Pell Grants, research dollars--you have to have shared governance.

认证机构表示，你的机构要想获得联邦资金——帕金斯贷款、斯塔福德贷款、佩尔助学金、研究资金——就必须有共同的治理。

Well, what does shared governance mean?

那么，共同治理意味着什么？

What it should mean is the faculty and the board/administration together wrestle with what the curriculum is, and all non-curricular things--athletics, fundraising, physical plant, lobbying the state legislature for money--that should be on the board and the president and the administration.

它应该意味着教师和董事会/行政部门共同努力解决课程是什么，以及所有非课程的事情——体育、筹款、实体设施、游说州立法机构筹集资金——这些都应该由董事会、总统和行政部门负责。

Instead, what happens is shared governance usually means almost everything is shared between faculty and board, even things where a committee of faculty is not going to be competent to manage physical plant planning.

相反，共享治理通常意味着几乎所有事情都在教职员工和董事会之间共享，即使是教职委员会无法管理物理工厂规划的事情。

And, curriculum is given over to the faculty entirely, and maybe just the Faculty Senate, which is the activist subset on average.

而且，课程完全交给教职员工，也许只是教职参议院，平均而言，这是积极分子的子集。

It's not true of everybody who is on a Faculty Senate, but on average, the Faculty Senate is the most activist, non-productive subset of the humanities and social sciences faculty.

并非每个教员评议会成员都是如此，但平均而言，教员评议会是人文和社会科学教员中最活跃、最无生产力的子集。

STEM [Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics] faculty, by and large, don't want to do anything with Faculty Senate because they've got research projects with deadlines.

总的来说，STEM（科学、技术、工程和数学）教师不想与教员参议院做任何事情，因为他们的研究项目有截止日期。

So, the curriculum is unmanaged.

所以，课程是不受管理的。

And, the way you know the curriculum is unmanaged is both by how incoherent it is.

而且，你知道课程不受管理的方式是通过它的不连贯程度来判断的。

Who would say, as the father of a 17-becoming-18-year-old, 'Oh, I want to hand my kids over to'--and then go read the curriculum of your school?

作为一个 17 岁即将满 18 岁的孩子的父亲，谁会说，“哦，我想把我的孩子交给”——然后去读你们学校的课程？

Most schools require 120 hours to graduate.

大多数学校要求 120 小时才能毕业。

It's three thirds: It's a little over a third your major; it's about a third the core curriculum; and it's a tick under a third electives.

这是三分之三：比你专业的三分之一多一点；大约占核心课程的三分之一；这是第三门选修课下的一个勾号。

The core curriculum should be the most important part of the school, and at most places you would say, 'My kid has 45 to 48 months of quasi-leisure to get exposed to great ideas in the world?

核心课程应该是学校最重要的部分，在大多数地方你会说，‘我的孩子有 45 到 48 个月的准休闲时间来接触世界上伟大的想法？

Are these the most important books they can read?' Hell, no. And, there's nobody who would even make the case that it is.

这些是他们能读到的最重要的书吗？天啊，不。而且，没有人愿意证明这一点。

The second way you know it's unmanaged is if somebody retires in a department with declining enrollment--anthropology, sociology--does the faculty of that department have the right to appoint the replacement for the retiring professor on their own, or is there any deliberative process about whether or not that faculty line should be moved somewhere else?

你知道它不受管理的第二种方法是，如果有人在一个入学率下降的系（人类学、社会学）退休，该系的教员是否有权自行任命退休教授的替代者，或者是否有任何审议程序来决定该教员队伍是否应该转移到其他地方？

That almost never happens, and that would happen everywhere in an institution that was well-managed.

这种情况几乎从未发生过，但在管理良好的机构中，这种情况到处都会发生。

Russ Roberts: Yeah.

拉斯·罗伯茨：是的。

Last question on education.

最后一个关于教育的问题。

And, you can--

而且，你可以——

Ben Sasse: I could ask you a few as well because you're doing a really interesting project.

Ben Sasse：我也可以问你一些问题，因为你正在做一个非常有趣的项目。

I want to hear about curriculum and how you get great talent to teach, because I know you do .

我想听听有关课程的信息以及您如何获得优秀的教学人才，因为我知道您会这样做。

I'm a fan of what you're building.

我很喜欢你正在构建的东西。

Russ Roberts: Well, maybe after we finish, but I appreciate the sentiment.

拉斯·罗伯茨：嗯，也许在我们结束之后，但我很欣赏这种情绪。

Ben Sasse: Thank you for agreeing to come on my podcast.

Ben Sasse：感谢您同意参加我的播客。

That's what I just heard.

这就是我刚刚听到的。

Russ Roberts: Yeah.

拉斯·罗伯茨：是的。

Just curious about how your day goes as a small college president versus a large college president in terms of duties, responsibilities.

只是好奇你作为一个小型大学校长与一个大型大学校长在职责和责任方面的情况如何。

Is it insanely different?

是不是很不一样？

Ben Sasse: Yeah, that's a great question.

本·萨斯：是的，这是一个很好的问题。

And, here I'll head-nod to--I assume where we're going theologically at some point, as Ecclesiastes--so, vanity after vanity is chasing after the whirlwind, life is but a breath.

而且，在这里我要点头——我假设我们在神学上的某个时刻，作为传道书——所以，一个又一个的虚荣追赶着旋风，生命不过是一次呼吸。

I am a recovering workaholic, and not just because I have a terminal diagnosis.

我是一个正在康复的工作狂，不仅仅是因为我得到了绝症诊断。

About three or four years ago, I realized that there's a lot in my soul that's pretty unhealthy because I was a working machine; and I could generate a lot of output, and way too much salve for aches was in the escape of produce more, work harder: I am boxer, it is Animal Farm, let's roll.

大约三四年前，我意识到我的灵魂中有很多东西非常不健康，因为我是一台工作机器；我可以产生大量的产出，而太多的止痛药是为了逃避更多的产出，更加努力地工作：我是拳击手，这是动物农场，让我们滚吧。

So, I have kept a time sheet on myself since I was in middle school or high school.

所以，从初中或高中开始，我就给自己保留了一张时间表。

15-minute increments forever, including all my workouts, and sleep, and whatever.

永远以 15 分钟为增量，包括我所有的锻炼、睡眠等等。

And, not a healthy thing, but I know the answer to your question because I mapped it.

而且，这不是一件健康的事情，但我知道你问题的答案，因为我绘制了它。

Ben Sasse: Again, it's a kind of a sicko answer.

Ben Sasse：这又是一个病态的答案。

I was, on paper, a small-college president for five years.

从名义上看，我担任了五年的小学院院长。

But I was one and a half years on leave--for half on leave while I was doing the primary for my Senate campaign in 2014.

但我休假了一年半——其中一半是在 2014 年参加参议院竞选初选时休假的。

So, three and a half years of full-time grinding work.

就这样，全职打磨了三年半的工作。

It's a real job where outcome--the small-college presidency--where outcomes are going to be obvious.

这是一份真正的工作，其结果——小学院院长——结果将是显而易见的。

We were in an enrollment crisis.

我们当时正面临入学危机。

They had missed payroll four times over the year before I arrived.

在我到达之前的一年里，他们已经四次拖欠工资了。

They ultimately always got faculty and staff the money to make sure people didn't miss their mortgage payments, but it wasn't necessarily on payday.

他们最终总是向教职员工提供资金，以确保人们不会错过抵押贷款付款，但不一定是在发薪日。

So, we had to build a real institution that was going to be accountable to the commitments we had made.

因此，我们必须建立一个真正的机构，对我们做出的承诺负责。

And, I named the project Big Scribner because there's a tiny little town up the river from here called Scribner, where there was a bank that had some revolving debt.

而且，我将这个项目命名为“大斯克里布纳”，因为这里河上游有一个叫斯克里布纳的小镇，那里有一家银行有一些循环债务。

And, I ultimately said there are, like, five dominoes to restructure this college: We're going to need to restructure our syndicated bank debt.

而且，我最终说，重组这所大学有五张多米诺骨牌：我们需要重组我们的银团债务。

We're going to need to make a bunch of bondholders take a haircut.

我们需要让一群债券持有人理发。

We're going to need to retire a bunch of faculty members that teach in departments that don't have schools anymore--students anymore.

我们需要退休一批在不再有学校的系里任教的教员——不再有学生。

We're going to need to raise a bunch of new money.

我们需要筹集大量新资金。

Etc. There are sort of two categories of new money: some new donors and some community foundation money where stuff was escrowed.

等等。新资金有两类：一些新的捐助者和一些托管的社区基金会资金。

And, I essentially went in and said, 'It's the 131st year of this college, but we need to view it as Year One as well.

而且，我基本上是进去说，‘这是这所大学成立的第 131 年，但我们也需要将其视为第一年。

It is a Tocquevillian project.

这是一个托克维尔式的计划。

We need to build this institution.

我们需要建立这个机构。

We need to serve the students of our community, in Omaha'--over half of Nebraskans live in metro Omaha, and that's an hour from here.

我们需要为奥马哈社区的学生提供服务——超过一半的内布拉斯加人住在奥马哈地铁站，距离这里一小时车程。

So, that's where we were mostly recruiting kids.

所以，这就是我们主要招募孩子的地方。

So, we built a project that had very clear metrics.

因此，我们建立了一个具有非常明确指标的项目。

What would it look like at an enrollment level and at a budget level to be successful?

在招生水平和预算水平上如何才能取得成功？

And, we were .

而且，我们是。

I get too much credit for it.

我对此得到了太多的赞扬。

I'm good at building a team.

我擅长组建团队。

I'm not Midas.

我不是迈达斯。

I didn't deserve all the credit; but I put together the right group of people.

所有的功劳都不是我应得的；但我把合适的人聚集在一起。

Fast-forward to--you go to a big university, the job is more than 70% ceremonial.

快进到——你去了一所大大学，这份工作 70% 以上都是仪式性的。

Shake hands and--a head-of-state/head-of-government distinction in a European government.

握手，然后——欧洲政府中国家元首/政府首脑的区别。

The president's job is mostly to be at the right events.

总统的工作主要是出席正确的活动。

So, you could say that that has a fundraising component, but a lot of the fundraising is not concretely tied to a specific pillar of the capital campaign.

所以，你可以说这有筹款的成分，但很多筹款并没有与资本活动的特定支柱具体联系起来。

So, there's a lot about both jobs.

所以，这两项工作都有很多内容。

It's super-important, but we're going to need our large institutions to reform themselves to persuade the public that they're good stewards of 15-to-25-year-olds' time in a world where job disruption is going to be forever more.

这非常重要，但我们需要我们的大型机构进行自我改革，以说服公众，在一个工作中断将永远更加严重的世界中，他们是 15 至 25 岁年轻人时间的好管家。

And, therefore--there's never been a civilization that really created lifelong learners.

因此，从来没有一个文明能够真正创造出终身学习者。

We're going to have to do that, both on the merits because it's the right thing to do for virtue inculcation and curiosity, but we're also going to need to do it because economic viability for a household is going to require 35- and 45-year-olds to be able to get retrained, and nobody's ever done that at scale.

我们必须这样做，一方面是因为这样做是为了美德灌输和好奇心，但我们也需要这样做，因为一个家庭的经济生存能力将需要 35 岁和 45 岁的人能够接受再培训，而没有人大规模地这样做过。

Russ Roberts: Yeah, we're in for interesting times.

拉斯·罗伯茨：是的，我们正处于有趣的时期。

Russ Roberts: I want to shift gears and talk about religion.

拉斯·罗伯茨：我想换个话题，谈谈宗教。

Talk about your faith, if you're comfortable in this moment, and how it's been affected by your diagnosis.

谈谈你的信仰，如果你现在感到舒服的话，以及它是如何受到你的诊断的影响的。

Ben Sasse: Yeah.

本·萨斯：是的。

I am self-consciously Christian and believe the Heidelberg Catechism structure of what are the three things you need to know to live and die in the joy of this comfort that my only hope is in a grand trade--where I get to bring the sin, and the Messiah gets to bring the forgiveness, and I get to hand off all of my brokenness; and I get imputed righteousness.

我自觉是基督徒，相信海德堡要理问答的结构是你需要知道的三件事，才能在这种安慰的喜悦中生活和死亡，我唯一的希望是在一个伟大的交易中——在那里我可以带来罪恶，弥赛亚可以带来宽恕，我可以交出我所有的破碎;我得到了归于正义。

Those three things are guilt, grace, and gratitude.

这三件事就是愧疚、恩典和感恩。

How big is my law-breaking?

我的违法行为有多大？

What does it look like to have access to forgiveness?

获得宽恕会是什么样子？

And then, how should we then live in light of it?

那么，我们应该如何生活呢？

I'm blessed to have had a worldview that's been settled probably since my teens or early 20s.

我很幸运，从我十几岁或二十出头的时候起，我就有了一种世界观。

But, it's definitely different to be looking at a terminal diagnosis.

但是，查看最终诊断绝对是不同的。

But, I've had a lot of peace about the fact that on December 14th, a doc said to me: Ben Sasse's torso is chock-full of tumors, and you're not long for this world.

但是，12 月 14 日，一位医生对我说：本·萨斯的躯干长满了肿瘤，而你在这个世界上的时间已经不多了，这让我感到很平静。

Death sucks, but it is a blessing to be able to view it as the final enemy, not as the ultimate word.

死亡很糟糕，但能够将其视为最终的敌人，而不是最终的词，这是一种祝福。

It's the last bad thing.

这是最后一件坏事了。

So, I'm going through stuff that's not fun.

所以，我正在经历一些并不有趣的事情。

Treatment is a little easier than I thought, but I still puke many times a day and bleed out my head all the time.

治疗比我想象的要容易一些，但我仍然每天吐很多次，而且总是头流血。

As you and I were talking before the show started, I have a RAS inhibitor drug that makes it really hard to grow skin, so the downsides of my chemo are smaller than the carpet bombing chemo of 5 or 25 years ago, but it's still--I changed a blood-saturated pillowcase on my bed three times in the night last night, so that's not a lot of fun.

正如你和我在节目开始前所说的那样，我有一种 RAS 抑制剂药物，它使皮肤很难生长，所以我的化疗的缺点比 5 或 25 年前的地毯式轰炸化疗要小，但它仍然是——我昨晚在床上换了 3 次血饱和的枕套，所以这不是很有趣。

But it is a truth injection about the fact that we're finite, and we're mortals, and it will shatter the idols of things like my workaholism past.

但这是关于我们是有限的、我们是凡人这一事实的真相注入，它将粉碎像我过去的工作狂这样的偶像。

Russ Roberts: Did your faith fluctuate in the past?

拉斯·罗伯茨：你的信仰过去有波动吗？

And, is it stronger now?

而且，现在更强了吗？

Ben Sasse: It fluctuated in the sense that I grew up in a Christian home.

本·萨斯：从我在基督教家庭长大的意义上来说，它有所波动。

I'm from rural Nebraska.

我来自内布拉斯加州农村。

I grew up just a couple miles from where we're recording this right now.

我长大的地方离我们现在录制这个的地方只有几英里。

And, I grew up in the Lutheran Church; and, in college and taking time off to live on trains in college for a while, I read a lot of theology and wrestled through stuff, but didn't ever really have any grand period of doubt.

而且，我在路德教会长大；而且，在大学期间，我花了一段时间在大学的火车上生活，我读了很多神学并思考了一些东西，但从来没有真正有任何怀疑的时期。

Just got more theologically serious and more serious about understanding what I believed and why.

只是在神学上变得更加严肃，更加认真地理解我的信仰和原因。

And, every Sunday for decades, getting the chance to assemble for corporate worship and get on your knees and tell the truth about my sin is a blessing.

而且，几十年来的每个星期日，有机会聚集在一起进行集体敬拜，跪下来说出我的罪的真相是一种祝福。

So, that hasn't fluctuated.

所以，这并没有波动。

I would say there's something different about the last six and a half months, which is: when death is nearer, it definitely crowds out a lot of the distraction.

我想说过去六个半月有一些不同，那就是：当死亡临近时，它肯定会排除很多干扰。

There's sort of a truth serum about what do you really believe, and lots of small things seem bizarre.

关于你真正相信什么，有一种真相血清，很多小事情看起来都很奇怪。

Like, I knew in public life that reading the comment section of something online was dumb, but I would still occasionally do it.

就像，我知道在公共生活中阅读在线评论部分是愚蠢的，但我仍然偶尔会这样做。

I mean, I was in intel, and so I know most of this crap is bots.

我的意思是，我在英特尔工作，所以我知道这些垃圾大部分都是机器人。

Right?

正确的？

I think the public doesn't really get this.

我认为公众并没有真正理解这一点。

A huge share of the comments on something like X aren't real .

像 X 这样的东西的大部分评论都是不真实的。

They're generated by foreign intel services that want us to hate each other.

它们是由外国情报部门产生的，他们希望我们互相憎恨。

In Fall of 2017, when there's an open Senate seat in Mississippi and President Trump stands up at a rally and he says, 'What do people in Mississippi like?

2017 年秋天，当密西西比州有一个空缺的参议院席位时，特朗普总统在一次集会上站起来说，‘密西西比州的人们喜欢什么？

I think maybe racism.

我想也许是种族主义。

So, why don't I talk about Colin Kaepernick--that son of bitch who won't stand for the anthem?'

那么，我为什么不谈谈科林·卡佩尼克——那个在奏国歌时不起立的混蛋呢？

Colin Kaepernick wasn't in the League when that speech was made.

发表该演讲时，科林·卡佩尼克并不在联盟中。

There are 1,500 NFL [National Football League] players: six of them are kneeling, and Kaepernick isn't one of them.

有 1,500 名 NFL（美国国家橄榄球联盟）球员：其中六人跪着，而卡佩尼克不是其中之一。

And over the course of the next four days, American discourse is taken over by #Standfortheanthem and #TakeakneeNFL, the two sides of the fight.

在接下来的四天里，美国的话语权被#Standfortheanthem 和#TakeakneeNFL 这两个战斗双方所占据。

It's an important debate at one level; but, like, it's ludicrous .

在某种程度上，这是一场重要的辩论；但在某种程度上，这是一场重要的辩论。但是，这很荒谬。

It's like a cartoon that our public discourse for four days was dominated by the two sides of this debate.

就像一部漫画一样，我们四天的公开言论都是由这场辩论的双方主导的。

And, both sides were more than 70% Russian bots.

而且，双方 70% 以上都是俄罗斯机器人。

And all of a sudden, all of us are drinking this crap.

突然之间，我们所有人都在喝这种垃圾。

And so, I know that to be true; but I still might have read the comments section during a reelection campaign in 2019 or 2020.

所以，我知道这是真的；但我仍然可能在 2019 年或 2020 年连任竞选期间阅读评论部分。

Today, I could not care less about that.

今天，我对此一点也不在乎。

I mean, I care about it for civic health.

我的意思是，我关心公民健康。

I want people to not be distracted by it.

我希望人们不要因此而分心。

But I would never think, 'Oh, this bot says Ben Sasse is an insider asshole who embezzled a bunch of money.' And I was, like, 'Well, thank you, St. Petersburg.

但我绝不会想，‘哦，这个机器人说本·萨斯是一个内部混蛋，挪用了一大笔钱。’我当时想，‘好吧，谢谢你，圣彼得堡。

Bot farms--somebody just got 17 cents.' [More to come, 42:54]

机器人农场——有人只得到了 17 美分。” [更多内容即将推出，42:54]

Ben Sasse: No. I read the law from the Early Church to then the Medieval Church and Early Lutheranism, and then Calvinism and beyond, which is sort of my convictional community.

本·萨斯：不。我读过从早期教会到中世纪教会和早期路德教，然后是加尔文主义及其他宗教的法律，这是我的信仰团体。

I call myself a Luthero-Calvinist.

我称自己为路德加尔文主义者。

Our numbering of the Decalogue changes.

我们对十诫的编号发生了变化。

But, Table One: No other gods, no images, not taking God's name lightly, and the Sabbath.

但是，表一：没有其他神，没有图像，不轻视上帝的名字，还有安息日。

And then, Table Two: Honor your father and mother--which is really all authorities--and adultery, and murder, and stealing, and false witness, and covetousness.

然后，表二：尊敬你的父母——这实际上是所有的权威——以及通奸、谋杀、偷盗、假见证和贪婪。

I look at those 10 Laws, and I'm, like, 'Holy crap.

我看着这 10 条法律，我就想，‘天哪。

That's a straight edge, and I am crooked stuff.' I don't look at the gap between the righteous law and my unrighteousness and say, 'Oh, something's wrong with the law.' I'm, like, 'Crap, that's wrong in me .' In my conscience, I know that I'm guilty.

那是直边，而我是弯曲的东西。”我不会看到正义的法律和我的不正义之间的差距，然后说：“哦，法律出了问题。”我的反应是，‘糟糕，我错了。’我的良心知道我有罪。

And so, Paul, in the Letter to the Romans, Chapter Seven, says, 'That which I want to do, I do not do, and that which I do, I do not want to do.' I'm like that broken Augustinian/Pauline anthropology.

因此，保罗在《罗马书》第七章中说：“我愿意做的，我不做；我所做的，我不愿意做。”我就像那个破碎的奥古斯丁/波林人类学。

That's me.

这就是我。

And, I want to be righteous; and I always fail.

而且，我要成为正义的人；而我总是失败。

So, I'm not mad at God.

所以，我并不生上帝的气。

I'm sort of mad at me.

我有点生我的气了。

Russ Roberts: So, I get that.

拉斯·罗伯茨：所以，我明白了。

As a Jew, I get it.

作为一个犹太人，我明白。

And I would just add that, disappointingly, a large number of the frustrations that I experience in life--what we would call annoyances.

我只想补充一点，令人失望的是，我在生活中经历了很多挫折——我们称之为烦恼。

Not a terminal diagnosis, but things going wrong.

不是终极诊断，而是出了问题。

But, things going wrong.

但是，事情出了问题。

Every day.

每天。

Things go wrong.

事情出了问题。

They're not what you want.

他们不是你想要的。

And, I can get annoyed with those, and I recognize in some dimension--not at the time always--but I recognize later that's just my self-centeredness that I deserve better.

而且，我可能会对这些感到恼火，并且我在某些方面认识到 - 并非总是如此 - 但后来我认识到这只是我的自我中心，我应该得到更好的。

And ultimately, I'm kind of angry at God for not giving me more of what I deserve.

最终，我对上帝没有给我更多我应得的感到愤怒。

That's the flip side of what the generous thing you just mentioned.

这就是你刚才提到的慷慨的另一面。

And I look at myself in those moments and say--you know, I think about Anne Lamott, who said: God's name is 'Not me.' That's where I want to head.

在那些时刻我看着自己说——你知道，我想到了安妮·拉莫特，她说：上帝的名字是“不是我”。这就是我想去的地方。

Not me.

不是我。

I'm not the center.

我不是中心。

I'm just a small thing.

我只是一个小东西。

And, that's easy to say when we're talking about delivery that goes awry and a dinner that gets spoiled or whatever it is.

而且，当我们谈论送货出错和晚餐变质或其他任何事情时，这很容易说。

But, when you're given your fate, I would think it would be hard to take it well.

但是，当你的命运被赋予时，我想你很难接受它。

So, if you really are--I was going to say, God bless you.

所以，如果你真的是——我想说，上帝保佑你。

I mean, I think that's an extraordinary achievement.

我的意思是，我认为这是一项非凡的成就。

Ben Sasse: Thanks, but I want to view it as the language of gift in--to be clear, death is terrible.

本·萨斯：谢谢，但我想将其视为礼物的语言——明确地说，死亡是可怕的。

I don't want to whitewash it at all.

我根本不想粉饰它。

But, I mentioned Ecclesiastes earlier.

但是，我之前提到过传道书。

I think it is useful to view it as a big screaming--a flashing sign of truth about our finitude and our mortality.

我认为将其视为一种巨大的尖叫是有用的——这是关于我们的有限性和死亡的真理的闪烁标志。

And, your point about God's name is not Russ Roberts or Ben Sasse.

而且，你关于上帝名字的观点不是拉斯·罗伯茨或本·萨斯。

Knowing that is a tiny, tiny step toward wisdom, and it's like the paradox of so much of lived experience, which is that we're relational beings.

知道这一点是迈向智慧的一小步，这就像许多生活经验的悖论一样，那就是我们是关系性的存在。

Right?

正确的？

And, I want to flourish.

而且，我想要蓬勃发展。

I want to be happy.

我想要快乐。

I want joy and short-term pleasure.

我想要快乐和短暂的快乐。

But I want longer term more than short-term.

但我更想要长期而不是短期。

But even the longer term, I know that an uncertain path to it is pursuing it.

但即使从长远来看，我也知道追求它的道路是不确定的。

And a much more certain path is self-denial and dying to self, and trying to serve.

一条更确定的道路是自我否定、向自我死亡，并努力服务。

Right?

正确的？

Like, if in my marriage my aspiration is my happiness, I'm going to be unhappy.

就像，如果在我的婚姻中我的愿望是我的幸福，我就会不幸福。

If my aspiration is my wife's happiness, I've got a pretty good shot at being happy.

如果我的愿望是我妻子的幸福，我就有很大机会获得幸福。

And, it feels like that might be a writ-small portrait of relationship with the Divine as well, in that: We're not meant to be on the throne.

而且，感觉这也可能是与神的关系的写照，因为：我们不应该登上王位。

Russ Roberts: Yeah.

拉斯·罗伯茨：是的。

That's a great insight.

这是一个很棒的见解。

Russ Roberts: And, what is your prayer practice?

拉斯·罗伯茨：那么，你的祈祷练习是什么？

And, do you believe in petitionary prayer?

那么，你相信祈求祈祷吗？

And, how has your health situation affected your prayer?

还有，你的健康状况如何影响你的祷告？

Ben Sasse: Yeah, great question.

本·萨斯：是的，很好的问题。

Both corporately and individually.

无论是公司还是个人。

So, at corporate--at church on Sunday, but in our family, we pray aloud.

所以，在周日的教堂里，在公司里，但在我们的家里，我们会大声祈祷。

Ideally twice a day, almost always once a day.

理想情况下每天两次，几乎总是每天一次。

So, if not at the evening meal, if we're not assembled, then before bed, but sometimes morning as well.

所以，如果不是在晚餐时，如果我们没有聚集，那么就在睡觉前，但有时早上也是如此。

But, individually, I try to use the structure of adoration, confession, thanks-giving, supplication.

但是，就个人而言，我尝试使用崇拜、忏悔、感恩、恳求的结构。

If I start with petitionary prayer and supplication, I'm pretty soon talking way too much about Ben.

如果我从请愿祈祷和恳求开始，我很快就会过多地谈论本。

So, I think trying to work a little bit through both the communicable and incommunicable attributes of God is a pretty great way to do the Adoration.

所以，我认为尝试通过上帝的可传达和不可传达的属性来进行一点工作是进行崇拜的一个很好的方式。

If I'm just on communicable attributes, God is patient and long-suffering and should be patient and long-suffering: and man, am I impatient and not long-suffering.

如果我只是在可传染的属性上，上帝是有耐心和长期忍耐的，并且应该是有耐心和长期忍耐的：而人类，我是不是不耐烦而不是长期忍耐呢？

That's important, and it's one of my failings.

这很重要，也是我的失败之一。

But, a bigger one is, you know, reflecting on the eternality, omnipotence, omniscience of God.

但是，更大的一个是，你知道，反思上帝的永恒性、全能、全知。

And none of those are characteristics that are communicable to me.

这些特征都不是我可以传达的。

So, I think the Adoration is a key piece that sets the stage for me properly confessing my sin.

所以，我认为《崇拜》是一个关键的作品，它为我正确地忏悔我的罪奠定了基础。

And then, I try to do thanks to a certain degree before supplication.

然后，我在祈求之前尝试做一定程度的感谢。

The one thing that's changed a lot over these six and a half months is Tim Keller, who was a Presbyterian pastor in New York City who ironically died of pancreatic cancer three years ago, was in my denomination.

这六个半月里发生了很大变化的一件事是蒂姆·凯勒（Tim Keller），他是纽约市的一位长老会牧师，讽刺的是三年前死于胰腺癌，他就在我的教派中。

And I knew Tim relatively well.

我对蒂姆比较了解。

And he said something really profound in his declining year or two.

在他生命垂危的一两年里，他说了一些非常深刻的话。

He didn't present at Stage Four like mine, but he was still pretty clearly going to die.

他没有像我一样出现在第四阶段，但他仍然很明显会死。

He said, 'I hate pancreatic cancer.

他说，‘我讨厌胰腺癌。

I would never wish pancreatic cancer on anyone.

我永远不会希望任何人患上胰腺癌。

But, paradoxically, I also would never want to go back to a stage in life where I didn't know the power of pancreatic cancer prayer.'

但矛盾的是，我也永远不想回到我不知道胰腺癌祈祷力量的人生阶段。

And I didn't have any idea what the heck that meant.

我根本不知道这到底是什么意思。

And then, I became symptomatic.

然后，我出现了症状。

So, I was symptomatic just a little before Halloween, and I wasn't diagnosed till mid-December.

所以，我在万圣节前夕出现了症状，直到 12 月中旬才被诊断出来。

So, I had about seven weeks of some pretty extraordinary pain because my cancer has metastasized from the pancreas to five other systems.

因此，我经历了大约七周的非同寻常的疼痛，因为我的癌症已经从胰腺转移到其他五个系统。

Liver is farthest along, but I got lymphoma and lung cancer, etc. And, my soon-to-be med-school daughter always corrects me: 'You don't have lung cancer.

肝脏是最远的，但我得了淋巴瘤和肺癌等。而且，我即将上医学院的女儿总是纠正我：“你没有肺癌。”

You have pancreatic cancer that is now also resident in your lungs.' So, it's a different thing.

你患有胰腺癌，现在它也长驻在你的肺部。所以，这是另一回事。

The molecule is pancreatic cancer, but it's in all these other systems.

该分子是胰腺癌，但它存在于所有其他系统中。

I had really weird pain all along the front of my ribcage that would radiate.

我的胸腔前部有一种非常奇怪的疼痛，并且会散发出来。

I would get this piercing pain in the mid-spine, and then it would radiate all over my torso, down to scrotum and up to chest.

我会在脊柱中部感到刺痛，然后它会辐射到我的整个躯干，向下到阴囊，向上到胸部。

But, around the front of my ribcage, I would just have this incredible pain, like when you're a little kid and you get a soccer ball or a punch to the gut, and you think for about 20 seconds you're going to die.

但是，在我的胸腔前部周围，我会感到难以置信的疼痛，就像当你还是个小孩子的时候，你的肠道被一个足球或一拳打中，你会在大约 20 秒的时间里认为你会死。

And, I would have that the majority of my waking hours.

而且，我醒着的大部分时间都会这样。

But it would radiate from my spine, and it turned out I have a tumor that is not technically in my spine, but presses against it.

但它会从我的脊柱辐射出来，结果证明我有一个肿瘤，严格来说，它并不在我的脊柱上，而是压在它上面。

So, now that I'm on a lot of morphine and I'm on daraxonrasib--this amazing drug which has shrunk my tumors so much--I'm in so much less pain April, May, June, 4th of July of 2026 than in November 2025.

所以，现在我服用了大量的吗啡并且服用了 daraxonrasib——这种神奇的药物使我的肿瘤缩小了很多——我在 2026 年 4 月、5 月、6 月和 7 月 4 日的疼痛比 2025 年 11 月要少得多。

But, to your prayer point, I was in so much pain and I didn't know why, that I was spending almost all night, every night, on the floor in my shower and removed the temperature control so that you could make it way hotter than you're supposed to make your water in your house.

但是，对于你的祈祷点，我非常痛苦，我不知道为什么，我几乎整个晚上都在我的淋浴间的地板上度过，并取消了温度控制，这样你就可以让它比你家里应该制水的温度高得多。

And I was just running that hot water in the center of my spine to try to take away this pain; and we had not been able to diagnose what was wrong at first.

我只是用热水冲洗我的脊椎中央，试图消除这种疼痛；我们一开始无法诊断出问题所在。

And, in that time, I would cry out to God asking for relief from the pain, but also reflecting honestly on the fact that, 'Hey, if I got a terminal cancer diagnosis and I'm cured from cancer, it doesn't change the fact that this 53-year-old is still, at 83 or 93, headed for the same fate.' Then so, standing before the fact that we all have a terminal diagnosis, changed my ability to self-delude and to distract with this worldly performance or output, and you realize we stand naked before a holy God, and relationship is the only thing that ultimately matters.

那时，我会向上帝呼求，祈求减轻痛苦，但也会诚实地反思这样一个事实：“嘿，如果我被诊断出患有晚期癌症，并且癌症被治愈了，这并不能改变这个事实，即这个 53 岁的人，在 83 岁或 93 岁的时候，仍然面临着同样的命运。”那么，站在我们所有人都有绝症诊断的事实面前，改变了我自我欺骗的能力，并用这种世俗的表现或输出分散注意力，你就会意识到我们赤身裸体地站在圣洁的上帝面前，而关系是唯一最终重要的事情。

Relationship with those we love as well, but I mean, it's relationship to God first.

与我们所爱的人的关系也是如此，但我的意思是，首先是与神的关系。

Russ Roberts: It seems to me, and I don't know if this is generally true, but it just seems to me that we try not to think about death.

拉斯·罗伯茨：在我看来，我不知道这是否普遍正确，但在我看来，我们试图不去思考死亡。

And, when we get a scare, we get afraid.

而且，当我们受到惊吓时，我们就会感到害怕。

We don't get more thoughtful.

我们没有得到更多的思考。

We get afraid, and we just want a doctor to say it's fine.

我们感到害怕，只希望医生说没事。

And then we go back to ignoring death--because we want to.

然后我们又回到忽视死亡的状态——因为我们想这样做。

And, I think people vary in how much they think about it.

而且，我认为人们对此的看法各不相同。

Certainly, as you get older, you think about it more, inevitably.

当然，随着年龄的增长，你不可避免地会更多地思考这个问题。

It does concentrate the mind wonderfully, as Samuel Johnson said.

正如塞缪尔·约翰逊所说，它确实能很好地集中注意力。

Is there fear in all of that?

这一切有恐惧吗？

Or is it just that your daily life--obviously, there's sadness--but I assume there's also a lot more intensity.

或者只是因为你的日常生活——显然，有悲伤——但我认为也有更多的强度。

I assume every day has a different texture than it had seven months ago.

我想每一天的质感都与七个月前不同。

Is that true?

这是真的吗？

Ben Sasse: Partly, yes.

本·萨斯：部分是的。

I wouldn't say that there's more fear about the relationship to God.

我不会说人们对与神的关系有更多的恐惧。

I definitely feel fear is a little bit strong, but let's go with 55% of fear about not wanting to be a pansy-ass during the final stages.

我确实觉得恐惧有点强烈，但让我们以 55% 的恐惧来考虑，因为我们不想在最后阶段成为一个三色堇混蛋。

I mean, it's pretty obvious that pancreatic cancer's actual death weeks are really ugly.

我的意思是，很明显，胰腺癌的实际死亡周非常难看。

And so, I want to be able to play the man during that phase.

所以，我希望能够在那个阶段扮演这个人。

I want my kids to see me honorable and able to engage them.

我希望我的孩子们看到我是值得尊敬的并且能够吸引他们。

Again, I'm not a complete stoic about it; I'm not eschewing all morphine.

再说一遍，我对此并不是一个完全坚忍的人。我并没有完全避开吗啡。

But, I choose most days to take way less morphine than my 55 milligram prescription because 55 milligrams has me high as a kite, and I'm either asleep or incoherent.

但是，我选择大多数日子服用比我的 55 毫克处方更少的吗啡，因为 55 毫克让我兴奋得像风筝一样，而且我要么睡着了，要么语无伦次。

So, I'm in a small bit of pain right now, but it's because I want to be able to talk to you at speed.

所以，我现在有点痛苦，但那是因为我想能够快速地和你交谈。

So, I know that the actual process of death is going to be a part of life that isn't fun, but that suffering can build perseverance.

所以，我知道死亡的实际过程将成为生命的一部分，这并不有趣，但痛苦可以培养毅力。

Perseverance can build character, and character can build hope, to quote Romans 5.

引用罗马书第五章，毅力可以塑造品格，品格可以塑造希望。

But, I think what's clearly true about our mortality is that we have an unbelievable capacity to delude ourselves and pretend it isn't so, and it's definitely on a spectrum more true of me today than when I was in great pain six months ago.

但是，我认为关于我们的死亡的明显真实之处在于，我们有一种令人难以置信的能力来欺骗自己并假装事实并非如此，而且对于我来说，这绝对比六个月前我承受巨大痛苦时更真实。

Right?

正确的？

I can have a short-term fight bickering with my wife about something today that I couldn't have done six months ago because life just felt too short.

我可以和我的妻子进行一场短期的争吵，因为今天我做不到六个月前做不到的事情，因为生命太短暂了。

And, I think there's a real wisdom in contemplating our death as a way to then also get back to living.

而且，我认为将我们的死亡视为一种重新生活的方式是一种真正的智慧。

Like, I think the thing that makes the day-to-day valuable is that it sits in light of eternity, and we're doing these things out of gratitude, and love, and service, but not because we're stupid enough to believe we're actually building a storehouse that's going to be big enough as a store of labor or grain, that it doesn't just get us through a bad harvest in a really long cold winter, but that we think we're transcending our mortality.

就像，我认为让日常变得有价值的事情是它立足于永恒，我们做这些事情是出于感激、爱和服务，但并不是因为我们愚蠢到相信我们实际上正在建造一个足够大的仓库来储存劳动力或粮食，它不仅能让我们在漫长寒冷的冬天度过歉收，而且我们认为我们正在超越我们的死亡。

I know with your dual geography, you've thought a lot about the worldviews of Silicon Valley over the years; I've done a bunch of board work in Silicon Valley over the years.

我知道，由于你的双重地理，这些年来你对硅谷的世界观思考了很多；多年来我在硅谷做过很多董事会工作。

I don't mean this to be disrespectful, but I think it's just mind-blowing that Ray Kurzweil's stupidest ideas are treated as if they're sophisticated: that humans are going to upload our consciousness into the Internet and become indifferent to our own mortality.

我并不是说这是不尊重，但我认为雷·库兹韦尔最愚蠢的想法被当作是复杂的来对待，这真是令人震惊：人类将把我们的意识上传到互联网上，并对我们自己的死亡变得漠不关心。

The singularity is we will transcend corporal bodily existence and become abstract idea.

奇点在于我们将超越肉体的存在而成为抽象的观念。

That's nuts.

那太疯狂了。

Like, spirit and body are both true, but the purpose of these digital tools is to supplement embodied, place-based existence, not to supplant them.

就像，精神和身体都是真实的，但这些数字工具的目的是补充具体的、基于地点的存在，而不是取代它们。

And, the place where you break bread with people, the place where you get on your knees and worship, the place where you make babies, or more generically, the place where you hug the people you love--we are bodily .

而且，你与人一起吃面包的地方，你跪下敬拜的地方，你生孩子的地方，或者更一般地说，你拥抱你爱的人的地方——我们是身体上的。

And, there has to be some reckoning with the question of, do we think from dust to dust means that's all there is?

而且，我们必须思考这样一个问题：我们是否认为从尘埃到尘埃就意味着一切就这样了？

It's hard for me to understand how you could live in a coherent way if someone thought this was the end.

我很难理解如果有人认为这就是结局，你怎么能以一种连贯的方式生活。

Russ Roberts: There's an old saying which I've always loved: 'No one on their deathbed wished they'd spent more time at the office.' And certainly, when you're on your deathbed or when you just start getting older, you reflect on your life and what things you're proud of, what things you're not proud of.

拉斯·罗伯茨：我一直很喜欢一句老话：“临终的时候没有人希望自己在办公室花更多时间。”当然，当你临终时或当你刚刚开始变老时，你会反思你的生活，思考哪些事情是你值得骄傲的，哪些事情是你不值得骄傲的。

What are you most proud of lately?

最近最令你自豪的事情是什么？

Has it changed 10 years ago, when you'd look back on what you'd achieved?

十年前，当你回顾自己所取得的成就时，情况有变化吗？

You've had a rather special life, right?

你的生活很特别，对吗？

You've done things that--I won't include the university president, but you've done things that--I won't include the University President--but you've done things that people marvel at.

你所做的事情——我不会包括大学校长，但你所做的事情——我不会包括大学校长——但你所做的事情让人们惊叹不已。

And you were not a cipher or a pawn in that game.

而且你不是这场游戏中的密码或棋子。

You were a player as a member of the Senate.

作为参议院议员，你曾是一名球员。

And you influenced thought.

你影响了思想。

And people still think about what you think about and talk about.

人们仍然会思考你所想、所谈论的事情。

Is that on the list?

名单上有这个吗？

What's on the list?

清单上有什么？

Ben Sasse: Thanks.

本·萨斯：谢谢。

That was too generous, but thank you.

这太慷慨了，不过还是谢谢你。

I definitely love to work, so don't hear this as a minimization of work.

我绝对热爱工作，所以不要将此视为工作的最小化。

But, you're right.

但是，你是对的。

The things on my deathbed that I think about that I'm proudest of are--I have an unbelievable friendship with Melissa Jane McLeod, now Melissa McLeod Sasse.

在我临终之际，我认为最令我自豪的事情是——我与梅丽莎·简·麦克劳德（现在是梅丽莎·麦克劳德·萨斯）有着令人难以置信的友谊。

Thirty-three years of friendship, 31 years of marriage--and man, it's an amazing thing.

三十三年的友谊，三十一年的婚姻——老兄，这是一件了不起的事情。

And, we produced three kids together that are sinners and broken and look in all sorts of horrible, stupid ways like their dad.

而且，我们一起生下了三个孩子，他们都是罪人，破碎的，看起来像他们的父亲一样可怕、愚蠢。

I don't mean just the ugliness of the physical visage, but I mean their sort of proto-workaholism, their grinder-achiever culture--which is wonderful but also too much .

我指的不仅仅是外表的丑陋，而是他们那种原始的工作狂，他们的磨练成就文化——这很美妙，但也太多了。

One of my kids, we jokingly say, 'Man, in a family of Type As, Kid X makes all three of us look like potheads.

我们开玩笑地对我的一个孩子说：‘伙计，在一个 A 型家庭中，X 孩子让我们三个看起来都像个傻瓜。

What the hell is wrong with you, Sisyphus?'

你到底怎么了，西西弗斯？

But, I'm really proud of my kids and the fact that they love to work and serve.

但是，我真的为我的孩子们以及他们热爱工作和服务的事实感到自豪。

So, the things that I think I still contemplate are not achievement-based.

所以，我认为我仍在考虑的事情并不是基于成就的。

They're relationships.

他们是关系。

But I like to work hard.

但我喜欢努力工作。

And, to your point--I mean, not trying to take it precisely to religion and theology--but I think the Sabbath is an incredibly useful institution.

而且，就你的观点而言——我的意思是，并不是试图将其精确地应用于宗教和神学——但我认为安息日是一个非常有用的制度。

In the Christian tradition, where we've flipped it to Day One from Day Seven, there's even a little more poetry about it because it means that the indicative precedes the imperative.

在基督教传统中，我们把它从第七天翻转到第一天，甚至还有更多的诗意，因为这意味着直陈式先于祈使式。

Acceptance precedes high expectations.

接受先于高期望。

You live the week out of gratitude, not to attain standing.

你这一周是出于感恩而度过的，而不是为了获得地位。

But, regardless of whether we put the Sabbath at Day One or Day Seven, it's a day where you cease your striving, because, at the end of the day, I can't do it.

但是，无论我们把安息日放在第一天还是第七天，这都是你停止努力的一天，因为到了最后，我做不到。

I can't achieve enough.

我无法取得足够的成就。

I can never build a big enough storehouse.

我永远无法建造一个足够大的仓库。

I can never make myself immortal.

我永远无法让自己永生。

I can't keep the planets in their orbits.

我无法让行星保持在它们的轨道上。

When I was in grad school--I'm a historian by training--and when I was in grad school, I was in New Haven from 1998 to 2003, 2004.

当我在研究生院时——我是一名受过训练的历史学家——当我在研究生院时，我从 1998 年到 2003 年、2004 年在纽黑文。

And, there were still all these books around from the 1970s in the psychohistory moment where basically Freud had so dominated many academic categories--that to be a historian, the assumption was you had to be able to do psychoanalysis of anybody who you were studying.

而且，在 20 世纪 70 年代的心理史学时代，仍然有所有这些书籍，基本上弗洛伊德在许多学术类别中占据主导地位——作为一名历史学家，你必须能够对你所研究的任何人进行心理分析。

And, I thought it was just nutty.

而且，我认为这太疯狂了。

And, I asked a couple of my professors, 'How the hell did this happen?' And, they said, 'Well, it's crazy.

而且，我问我的几位教授，“这到底是怎么发生的？”他们说，‘好吧，这太疯狂了。

The idea that Martin Luther wasn't really wrestling with theological ideas, but he was just super-constipated.

马丁路德并没有真正与神学思想斗争，但他只是超级便秘。

Then he had to explain it away; and that became the Tower Doctrine at the Diet of Worms.' That stuff was overwrought.

然后他必须解释清楚。这成为了沃尔姆斯议会的塔主义。那东西是过度劳累了。

But , I had a professor say--Skip Stout was his name; John Butler was another guy who made a similar point--Skip said, 'Ben, at the end of the day, we're all still kind of 70% who we were as 10-year-olds.

但是，一位教授告诉我——他的名字叫斯基普·斯托特；约翰·巴特勒 (John Butler) 也提出了类似的观点——斯基普 (Skip) 说，“本，归根结底，我们还是 70% 的 10 岁孩子。”

And, psychohistory was getting at a little bit of that.

而且，心理史学正在解决这一问题。

It's not 99%, but it also isn't 29%.

虽然不是99%，但也不是29%。

We're 70% who we were when we were 10-year-olds.' And, I think it's really helpful to think of ourselves as people who want to know and be known.

我们70%还是10岁时的样子。”而且，我认为将自己视为想要了解和被了解的人确实很有帮助。

We want to be accepted, and we want and need a well-done, good-and-faithful-servant blessing.

我们想要被接受，我们想要并且需要一个做得好的、良善和忠实的仆人的祝福。

We want a daddy who welcomes us, and accepts us, and takes us up in his arms.

我们想要一个欢迎我们、接受我们、把我们抱在怀里的爸爸。

And I think that aspirational sense can play out in really good work, but it can also become super-deformed in lots of kinds of addiction because we're trying to make a name for ourselves.

我认为，抱负感可以在真正出色的工作中发挥作用，但它也可能在许多种成瘾中变得超级畸形，因为我们试图为自己出名。

Russ Roberts: Yeah, for sure.

拉斯·罗伯茨：是的，当然。

It's a beautiful thing you said about your marriage.

你对你的婚姻说的很美好。

I think, until you've been married a while, what you said probably doesn't make any sense.

我想，在你结婚一段时间之前，你所说的可能没有任何意义。

So I'll just leave it there.

所以我就把它留在那里。

I think those of us who have been married a while do get it.

我想我们这些已经结婚一段时间的人确实明白这一点。

And, the thing that I think about my kids--I don't know if this speaks to you--but my kids are not my legacy.

而且，我对我的孩子的看法——我不知道这是否适合你——但我的孩子不是我的遗产。

They're me .

他们就是我。

And, they don't want to hear that.

而且，他们不想听到这个。

It's not comforting to them.

这对他们来说并不令人安慰。

It's horrifying.

太可怕了。

Just like I don't want to hear I'm my father and my mother.

就像我不想听到我是我的父亲和我的母亲一样。

Although times I'm comforted by that, too.

虽然有时我也因此感到安慰。

But, the immortality that we can have as humans in this world, outside of divine or faith, the divine or faith--it's nature and nurture that we pass on, and it persists after we go, and it persists after they go.

但是，我们作为人类在这个世界上可以拥有的不朽，在神圣或信仰之外，神圣或信仰——这是我们传递的天性和养育，在我们去世后它仍然存在，在他们去世后它仍然存在。

It's all one very long chain.

这都是一条很长的链条。

And, I'm sure, like you said, it's almost unavoidable when you see your both flaws and your strengths in your kids, and you realize it's not, 'Oh, I influence them.' They're a piece of you in a different form to me.

而且，我确信，就像你说的，当你在孩子身上看到自己的缺点和优点时，这几乎是不可避免的，并且你意识到这不是“哦，我影响他们。”他们是你的一部分，但与我不同。

Russ Roberts: I hope my kids are listening.

拉斯·罗伯茨：我希望我的孩子们正在倾听。

It'll ruin their day.

这会毁了他们的一天。

Ben Sasse: You got big and broad enough listenership that I'm sure they get recycled back to them all the time.

Ben Sasse：你们拥有足够大和广泛的听众，我确信他们会一直被回收。

My oldest kid turns 25 next week, and it blows my mind.

我最大的孩子下周就满 25 岁了，这让我大吃一惊。

I mean, it's, like, all the country music lyrics: three chords and the truth.

我的意思是，它就像所有乡村音乐的歌词：三个和弦和真相。

And an old man can never tell a young man how fast it goes, but the days are long and the years are short.

而老人永远无法告诉年轻人时间过得有多快，但日子很长，岁月很短。

It's so obviously true about parenting.

关于养育子女，这显然是正确的。

And, you never know when you're doing a thing for the last time.

而且，你永远不知道什么时候是你最后一次做某件事。

The last time that you read a book aloud to a little kid and they fall asleep--excuse me-- that's not supposed to happen.

上次你给小孩子大声朗读一本书，他们就睡着了——对不起——这是不应该发生的。

I've been wrestling with death for over half a year now.

我已经与死亡搏斗了半年多了。

I'm not supposed to get teared up talking about my kids.

我不应该在谈论我的孩子时流泪。

We need to blow some stuff up for freedom again so I can keep it together.

为了自由，我们需要再次炸毁一些东西，这样我才能将它们保持在一起。

Russ Roberts: If you can't cry over reading your book to your kid, there's something wrong with you.

拉斯·罗伯茨：如果你在给你的孩子读你的书时不能哭泣，那么你就有问题了。

I'm tearing up.

我泪流满面。

And, again, it's the same thing.

而且，这又是同样的事情。

It's immortal, that feeling.

那种感觉，是不朽的。

You have it forever.

你永远拥有它。

It's just an amazing thing.

这真是一件了不起的事情。

As precious as can be.

尽可能珍贵。

Ben Sasse: Yeah.

本·萨斯：是的。

She's a Second Lieutenant in the Air Force, and she gets here in a few hours.

她是空军少尉，几个小时后就到这里了。

Oklahoma--Vance Air Force Base in Oklahoma--is seven hours south of here.

俄克拉荷马州——俄克拉荷马州的万斯空军基地——距这里以南七小时车程。

And, she passed a check ride yesterday, jet flying in formation.

而且，她昨天通过了一次检查，喷气式飞机编队飞行。

And I'm, like--there's a lot of decline in the U.S. government over the years, but these idiots that are allowing my toddler to fly a jet 10 feet off somebody else's wings--like, somebody needs to check their wisdom because she's two.

我觉得，这些年来，美国政府的能力下降了很多，但这些白痴却允许我的孩子在距离别人机翼 10 英尺的地方驾驶喷气式飞机，有人需要检查一下自己的智慧，因为她才两岁。

She cannot be flying a jet next to another jet.

她不能在另一架飞机旁边驾驶一架飞机。

Russ Roberts: That's incredible.

拉斯·罗伯茨：这太不可思议了。

It's just incredible.

这真是令人难以置信。

Russ Roberts: This is kind of a segue.

拉斯·罗伯茨：这是一种延续。

I was going to ask you, so it kind of fits in: What are your reading habits?

我本来想问你，所以这有点适合：你的阅读习惯是什么？

What are you reading right now, if anything?

如果有的话，你现在在读什么？

And, if you're on morphine, I'm sure it's hard to read.

而且，如果你服用吗啡，我确信它很难阅读。

But when you're not on morphine, it's hard to read in 2026.

但当你不吸食吗啡时，2026 年就很难阅读了。

I'm constantly distracted by a thousand different things.

我经常被上千种不同的事情分散注意力。

I'm just curious what your reading practice is, and if it's changed over time, and if it has changed in these last few months.

我只是好奇你的阅读习惯是什么，它是否随着时间的推移而改变，以及在过去的几个月里是否发生了变化。

Ben Sasse: Thanks.

本·萨斯：谢谢。

Great question.

很好的问题。

At the risk of sounding like a fanboy, I think I--on Amazon a couple days ago just ordered Benjamin Todd's 80,000 Hours or whatever it is-- Making 80,000 Hours Count --again because I heard it on EconTalk.

冒着听起来像粉丝的风险，我想我——几天前在亚马逊上刚刚订购了本杰明·托德的《80,000 小时》或者其他什么——让 80,000 小时变得有价值——再次因为我在 EconTalk 上听到了它。

I read a lot of theology and have for decades, so it's not just because of this.

我读了很多神学，并且读了几十年，所以不仅仅是因为这个。

Some of that we read aloud at our house.

其中一些我们在家里大声朗读。

I mentioned the Heidelberg Catechism.

我提到了海德堡教义问答。

I've recently been rereading Zachariah Ursinus's 1563 commentary on the Heidelberg Catechism.

我最近重读了 Zachariah Ursinus 1563 年对海德堡教义问答的评论。

That's the grace/gratitude stuff I was saying earlier.

这就是我之前所说的恩典/感激之情。

I read a lot of intel.

我读了很多情报。

So, I think we are in a fascinating moment in these new tools, and I think a hundred years from now, when people look back on our moment, they're not talking about our politics.

所以，我认为我们正处于这些新工具的一个令人着迷的时刻，我认为一百年后，当人们回顾我们的时刻时，他们不会谈论我们的政治。

They're going to talk about the fact that we were living through a technological revolution that created an economic revolution, which undermined or flattened time and space.

他们将谈论这样一个事实：我们正在经历一场技术革命，这场技术革命创造了一场经济革命，破坏或扁平化了时间和空间。

And, we got to figure out how you build community in light of that.

而且，我们必须弄清楚如何根据这一点建立社区。

And, I think of myself on the continuum between the accelerationist side--Mark Andreessen is a friend, but I think a lot of his stuff is way too simple for my taste.

而且，我认为自己处于加速主义者之间的连续体——马克·安德森是我的朋友，但我认为他的很多东西对我来说太简单了。

On the other hand, the safetyist school is nutty.

另一方面，安全主义学派则是疯狂的。

The idea that you're going to regulate these tools in a bureaucracy in Washington is going to do anything other than slow us down so the CCP [Chinese Communist Party] wins all the races.

在华盛顿的官僚机构中监管这些工具的想法除了让我们放慢速度之外，还有其他任何作用，以便中国共产党赢得所有竞选。

That's crazy.

太疯狂了。

My sense is, if you're wondering, 'Does the digital revolution bring heaven or hell?' the right answer is Yes.

我的感觉是，如果你想知道“数字革命会带来天堂还是地狱？”正确答案是“是”。

It's going to bring all the human stuff faster, cheaper, more ubiquitous, and there's a lot of human stuff that's broken, and we're going to get more of that.

它将把所有人类的东西带来得更快、更便宜、更普遍，而且有很多人类的东西已经损坏了，我们将会得到更多这样的东西。

And, there's a lot of human stuff that's great, and we're going to get more of that.

而且，人类有很多很棒的东西，我们将会得到更多。

And right now we don't know how to manage that and net it out.

现在我们不知道如何管理它并将其消除。

So, I'm thinking a lot about the digital revolution in general.

因此，我对数字革命总体上进行了很多思考。

There aren't really many book-length things that we can read to keep up with the pace of frontier models.

我们可以阅读的真正书本长度的东西并不多，可以跟上前沿模型的步伐。

So, even though I don't like social media very much, a lot of the digital revolution generic stuff comes from long-form posts on X.

因此，尽管我不太喜欢社交媒体，但许多数字革命的通用内容都来自 X 上的长篇帖子。

The subset of that that I'm particularly interested in is the race with the CCP.

其中我特别感兴趣的是与中共的竞赛。

And, I think that the future of the geopolitical order is going to be either U.S./Western-led free trade, open navigation of the seaways, transparent contracts, rule of law, respect for human rights and dignity--or, it's going to be CCP and vassal state centralized totalitarianism.

而且，我认为地缘政治秩序的未来要么是美国/西方主导的自由贸易、开放的海上航行、透明的合同、法治、尊重人权和尊严，要么是中共及其附庸国的集权极权主义。

And it's pretty obvious which of these needs to win, in my view, but we don't have much vision to try to bring along our populace.

在我看来，其中哪一个需要获胜是非常明显的，但我们没有太多的愿景来尝试吸引我们的民众。

We're 23% of global GDP [Gross Domestic Product]--we, the United States, are 23% of global GDP at less than 4% of the population.

我们占全球 GDP 的 23%——我们美国，以不到 4% 的人口占全球 GDP 的 23%。

Americans need to understand this moment, and I don't think we're doing it very well because we're distracted with the digital casino in our pockets.

美国人需要理解这个时刻，我认为我们做得不太好，因为我们被口袋里的数字赌场分散了注意力。

So, I'm thinking a lot about the national security implications of the digital revolution, but I care a lot about the future of work as well.

因此，我对数字革命对国家安全的影响进行了很多思考，但我也非常关心工作的未来。

I wish I had more--time isn't the right word, but I wish I had the sequestered categories of time to read a little more fiction, but I don't really read any fiction right now.

我希望我有更多的时间——时间这个词不合适，但我希望我有隔离的时间来读更多的小说，但我现在并没有真正读任何小说。

I just started reading Marie Sandoz's Old Jewels , which is a biography of her father as a Swiss dude who became a frontier pioneer farmer in Nebraska in the 1880s, and that's extraordinary.

我刚刚开始读玛丽·桑多斯 (Marie Sandoz) 的《旧珠宝》(Old Jewels)，这是一本关于她父亲的传记，她是一名瑞士小伙子，在 1880 年代成为内布拉斯加州的边疆先锋农民，这非常了不起。

So, it's fiction-like, but it's historical biography.

所以，它虽然是小说，但却是历史传记。

Russ Roberts: I meant to ask you this before, and I don't want to miss it.

拉斯·罗伯茨：我之前就想问你这个问题，我不想错过。

Religion in the West is in tremendous decline, particularly in Europe, but Christianity in Europe.

西方的宗教正在急剧衰落，特别是在欧洲，但基督教在欧洲却在衰落。

And, in the United States, there's pockets of rebirth.

而且，在美国，也有一些重生的地方。

But, it just strikes me that most of what we worship in America is something else.

但是，令我震惊的是，我们在美国崇拜的大多数东西都是别的东西。

Rock stars.

摇滚明星。

And I watched a clip of Bruce Springsteen, and I'm a fan, and he comes off the stage, and he wanders into the crowd, and they treat him like a god.

我看了布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀的一段视频，我是他的粉丝，他走下舞台，走进人群，他们把他当作神一样对待。

They reach out their hand to him.

他们向他伸出手。

And he's glowing, like a god.

而且他容光焕发，就像神一样。

He's bestowing grace on them by looking at them, and they react accordingly.

他通过看着他们来赐予他们恩典，他们也会做出相应的反应。

And a similar thing, which is not exactly the same, but if you think about a rock concert as a communal form of worship--I don't know if you're watching the World Cup at all, but the joy that countries and the fans of foreign nations coming to America and being embraced and them enjoying and being proud of their team, singing--like hymns.

还有类似的事情，虽然不完全相同，但如果你把摇滚音乐会视为一种集体崇拜形式——我不知道你是否在看世界杯，但各国和外国球迷来到美国并被拥抱的喜悦，他们享受并为自己的球队感到自豪，唱着赞美诗。

Singing "Country Roads," which I'm sorry that that's the song they chose.

唱《Country Roads》，我很遗憾那是他们选择的歌曲。

I would have preferred something else.

我宁愿选择别的东西。

I don't hate the song, but it's not my first choice.

我不讨厌这首歌，但这不是我的第一选择。

American fans, 80,000 people singing that song, tens of thousands of Scots singing "The Flower of Scotland," or "Loch Lomond." And, it's so moving to me.

美国歌迷、80,000 人唱这首歌，数以万计的苏格兰人唱“苏格兰之花”或“洛蒙德湖”。而且，这让我很感动。

And it taps into, I think, our religious consciousness.

我认为，它触及了我们的宗教意识。

But it's not religion.

但这不是宗教。

I mean, it's not theology; it's not divine.

我的意思是，这不是神学；而是神学。这不是神圣的。

It's something else.

这是另一回事。

It's the same impulse to be part of something larger than yourself with a group of other people, belong, and be joyful.

与一群其他人一起成为比自己更大的事物的一部分、归属感和快乐也是同样的冲动。

And, just, what are your thoughts on that?

只是，你对此有何看法？

Ben Sasse: Well, first off, brother, I'm glad we're going another hour because there are four giant threads in there, I think--

本·萨斯：嗯，首先，兄弟，我很高兴我们还要再呆一个小时，因为里面有四个巨大的线程，我想——

Russ Roberts: We're not going another hour because the sun's going to set in Jerusalem, and I have to get home.

拉斯·罗伯茨：我们不会再走一个小时了，因为耶路撒冷的太阳就要落山了，我必须回家了。

Ben Sasse: Oh, that's fine.

本·萨斯：哦，没关系。

You have a very precise Sabbatarian deadline.

你有一个非常精确的安息日期限。

Let's tease out a couple things here because there's a lot of meat.

让我们在这里梳理一些事情，因为有很多肉。

First of all, head nod to the College World Series at the TD Ameritrade Park [Toronto-Dominion Ameritrade Park], 41 miles from where we now sit.

首先，向在 TD Ameritrade Park [Toronto-Dominion Ameritrade Park] 举行的大学世界系列赛致敬，距离我们现在所在的位置 41 英里。

West Virginia, along with Troy State, were the two of the 8 schools that made it.

西弗吉尼亚州和特洛伊州立大学是 8 所学校中的两所。

The College World Series has been in Omaha for 77 consecutive years, and it is the best amateur sporting event in America.

大学世界系列赛已连续77年在奥马哈举行，是美国最好的业余体育赛事。

So, first of all, a commercial to anybody who has never been to Field of Dreams : It's a 64-team tournament, and the last 8 teams come to Omaha for 11 days, and it is glorious.

首先，给从未去过梦想球场的人打个广告：这是一场有 64 支球队参加的锦标赛，最后 8 支球队来到奥马哈进行 11 天的比赛，这真是太光荣了。

This year, Troy and West Virginia were two of the eight teams.

今年，特洛伊队和西弗吉尼亚队是八支球队中的两支。

They were the only two who had never been here before.

他们是仅有的两个从未来过这里的人。

Oklahoma beat North Carolina for the national championship.

俄克拉荷马州击败北卡罗来纳州获得全国冠军。

But, West Virginia was here, and their fans captured Omaha with "Country Roads."

但是，西弗吉尼亚州就在这里，他们的粉丝用“乡村之路”占领了奥马哈。

So, first of all, I'm kind of a Gordon Gee fan to begin with, as a college president.

所以，首先，作为一名大学校长，我本来就是戈登·吉的粉丝。

Gordon, in his mid-80s now, has been president of Vanderbilt, Brown, Colorado, Ohio State, West Virginia, Ohio State another time, West Virginia another time.

戈登现在已经 80 多岁了，曾担任范德比尔特大学、布朗大学、科罗拉多州、俄亥俄州立大学、西弗吉尼亚大学、俄亥俄州立大学和西弗吉尼亚大学的校长。

He spent all of his life as a university president somewhere.

他一生都在某个地方担任大学校长。

Fascinating guy, but he's West Virginia's mascot to me, even though he could not do an Appalachian banjo fight in a bar for the life of him, that four-foot-tall Mormon.

他是个迷人的家伙，但对我来说他是西弗吉尼亚州的吉祥物，尽管他这个四英尺高的摩门教徒一辈子都无法在酒吧里进行阿巴拉契亚班卓琴比赛。

So, "Country Roads" is amazing, but I think it gets at something bigger, which is your point.

所以，《乡村公路》很棒，但我认为它有更大的意义，这就是你的观点。

In the Book of Ephesians, Paul says: What characterizes Christians?

保罗在《以弗所书》中说：基督徒有什么特征？

It's four things.

这是四件事。

One, spirit of gratitude.

一、感恩精神。

Two, not thinking of yourself more highly than you ought or more highly than those around you.

第二，不要把自己看得比你应该的更高，或者比你周围的人更高。

Three, singing constantly.

三、不断歌唱。

And, four, singing communally constantly.

第四，不断地集体唱歌。

That's a weird thing.

这是一件很奇怪的事情。

What are four things that characterize you?

你的四个特点是什么？

And, two of the four are singing ?

而且，四个人中有两个在唱歌？

And a third one is the impulse to sing--gratitude.

第三个是歌唱的冲动——感恩。

So, I think you're right.

所以，我认为你是对的。

There is less formal thought out theology among us than decades past, but functionally, humans are always worshiping something.

与过去几十年相比，我们中间的神学不那么正式，但从功能上讲，人类总是在崇拜某些东西。

Money, sex, power, fame, me, me, me.

金钱、性、权力、名誉、我、我、我。

And, your Springsteen example is good.

而且，你的斯普林斯汀的例子很好。

It might be worth laying it next to--laying, lying: my grammarian wife will slap me--Alan Jackson concerts or a U2 concert because they're different things that happen.

也许值得把它放在——躺着，撒谎：我语法学家的妻子会扇我一巴掌——艾伦·杰克逊音乐会或 U2 音乐会，因为它们发生的事情是不同的。

But, I think stadium concerts are really interesting.

但是，我觉得体育场音乐会真的很有趣。

In general, enthusiastic, passionate crowds scare me except for at football games.

一般来说，除了足球比赛之外，热情的人群会让我感到害怕。

Like, I understand the Aristotelian catharsis that happens in tribe around a football game.

就像，我理解部落中围绕足球比赛发生的亚里士多德式的宣泄。

But, in general, giant crowds scare me.

但总的来说，拥挤的人群让我感到害怕。

I think the mob is a danger that should always be resisted.

我认为暴徒是一种应该永远抵制的危险。

But, I remember being at a U2 concert one time 10 or 15 years ago.

但是，我记得 10 或 15 年前参加过一次 U2 音乐会。

Bono had not yet come on stage, but it was clear that it was going to happen soon.

波诺尚未上台，但显然很快就会上台。

And, the crowd of 85-ish thousand people, the crowd is pulsating, waiting for the Messiah.

而且，八万五千人的人群，人群在跳动，等待着弥赛亚。

Come and redeem us.

快来救赎我们吧。

And, there is such a difference: I've been to Springsteen as well, but--I don't mean to slap him--but it does feel self-referential in a way that doesn't help the crowd lower their expectations to something that's true and reachable.

而且，有这样一个区别：我也去过斯普林斯汀，但是——我并不是想打他——但它确实让人感觉自我指涉，这并不能帮助观众降低他们对真实和可实现的东西的期望。

That ecstatic religious experience that says 'I, the performer, might be God'-- way less healthy in my mind than what an Alan Jackson does, where he turns that nostalgic impulse toward a communal event back on people so that their experience can go with him.

那种欣喜若狂的宗教体验说“我，表演者，可能是上帝”——在我的头脑中远不如艾伦·杰克逊那样健康，他把对公共活动的怀旧冲动转回到人们身上，以便他们的经历可以与他同行。

I'm not saying: way down south 'on the Chattahoochee/never knew how much that muddy water meant to me.'

我并不是说：“在查塔胡奇河上向南走/从来不知道那浑水对我来说意味着什么。”

I'm not meaning it's the most important thing that can ever happen, but I'm taking my kids skiing this afternoon, and our experience on the water can be universalized to other people's communal family experiences.

我并不是说这是有史以来最重要的事情，但今天下午我要带我的孩子们去滑雪，我们在水上的经历可以推广到其他人的公共家庭经历中。

And I think you want to take that euphoria of crowds down to something this worldly or reflect on what it might say about our souls that we aspire to it, as opposed to pretend the catharsis is at the end of a Springsteen concert.

我认为你想把人群的欣快感降到世俗的东西上，或者反思一下我们所向往的灵魂可能会表达什么，而不是假装宣泄是在斯普林斯汀音乐会的结尾。

Because what always ends up happening is he sits down on an amplifier and gives a political speech.

因为最终总是发生的事情是他坐在扩音器上发表政治演讲。

Well, shit, that's anticlimactic.

好吧，妈的，这太虎头蛇尾了。

Russ Roberts: Well, that's recent.

拉斯·罗伯茨：嗯，那是最近的事。

I know him from earlier days when he was just mainly joyous.

我很早就认识他了，当时他主要是快乐的。

But, I understand--that's a different issue for sure.

但是，我理解——这肯定是一个不同的问题。

Russ Roberts: I'm going to close.

拉斯·罗伯茨：我要结束了。

I didn't warn you about this, so I'm just going to do it anyway.

我没有警告过你这件事，所以我还是要这么做。

And, I don't know if I'll get through it without tears, but I'm going to try.

而且，我不知道我是否能不流泪地度过这一切，但我会尝试。

When I thought about having this opportunity to interview you, which I'm deeply grateful for and it's been an incredible privilege, I thought about this Dylan Thomas poem:

当我想到有这个机会采访你时，我对此深表感激，这是一种令人难以置信的荣幸，我想到了迪伦·托马斯的这首诗：

And, I just think you're an incredible inspiration.

而且，我只是认为你是一个令人难以置信的灵感来源。

I know you strive to be a humble man.

我知道你努力成为一个谦虚的人。

I had this wonderful conversation with Luke Burgis.

我和卢克·布尔吉斯进行了这次精彩的谈话。

One of the parts of it, we were talking about the Benedictine monks and their lesson of walk with your head bowed down.

其中一部分，我们正在谈论本笃会修道士以及他们低着头走路的教训。

And I feel like you're a man who tries to walk with your head bowed down while you still rage against the dying of the light.

我觉得你就像一个试图低着头走路的人，而你仍然对光明的消逝感到愤怒。

So, I salute you.

所以，我向你致敬。

Ben Sasse: Thank you.

本·萨斯：谢谢。

I can't beat that poem.

我无法打败那首诗。

It has been an honor to be with you.

很荣幸能和你在一起。

Yes, death is a wicked enemy, and we should not accept easily the dying.

是的，死亡是一个邪恶的敌人，我们不应该轻易接受死亡。

I know that the end of pancreatic cancer, they often use the language of: people take to the bed and their will is just gone, and they don't care to fight it anymore.

我知道胰腺癌的终结，他们经常用这样的语言：人们躺在床上，他们的意志就消失了，他们不再愿意与之抗争。

Their abdomen freezes up, and nothing works anymore.

他们的腹部结冰了，一切都不再起作用了。

I want to fight that for as long as possible.

我想尽可能长时间地与之斗争。

And yet, there is a wisdom in numbering our days.

然而，计算我们的日子是有智慧的。

So, I'm very grateful for you, both what you said about singing in general and then giving us deep, meaningful words to close on.

所以，我非常感谢你，无论是你所说的关于歌唱的总体情况，还是给我们深刻、有意义的话语作为结束语。

Grateful for you, Russ.

感谢你，拉斯。

Russ Roberts: My guest today has been Ben Sasse.

拉斯·罗伯茨：今天我的客人是本·萨斯。

Ben, thanks for being part of EconTalk.

Ben，感谢您参与 EconTalk。