the-changelog-671
**Adam Stacoviak:** So friends, we're here with Ajay Kulkarni, a new friend of mine from Tiger Data, previously Timescale.
**Adam Stacoviak：** 朋友们，我们这里有 Ajay Kulkarni，他是我在 Tiger Data（以前是 Timescale）的新朋友。
We've had this relationship, we work with you as a sponsor, and I've been a fan, obviously, of time-series data, and I had ideas for you all, I've been working with Isabel behind the scenes...
我们已经建立了这种关系，我们作为赞助商与您合作，显然，我一直是时间序列数据的粉丝，我为你们所有人提供了一些想法，我一直在与伊莎贝尔在幕后合作......
And then it finally came back to this moment here, where you have agentic Postgres, which is just super-interesting to me...
然后终于回到了这一刻，这里有代理 Postgres，这对我来说非常有趣......
So I thought we would dive deep into who you are, Ajay, what your journey might be, and how you've come to love building databases.
因此，我想我们应该深入了解您是谁，Ajay，您的旅程可能是什么，以及您如何爱上构建数据库。
So let's start there.
那么让我们从这里开始吧。
**Ajay Kulkarni:** I love building, and I love solving problems.
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 我喜欢建造，也喜欢解决问题。
Now, databases are interesting, but it would not be the only thing I've done in my career.
现在，数据库很有趣，但这并不是我职业生涯中所做的唯一事情。
I've been in love with technology since I was a kid, and I remember using the internet for the first time in high school, in 1995, 1996, and thinking "I don't know what this is, but this is fun."
我从小就热爱科技，我记得第一次使用互联网是在高中，那是在 1995 年、1996 年，我当时想：“我不知道这是什么，但这很有趣。”
**Ajay Kulkarni:** And I was a pre-med at that point, applying to colleges, and I switched to computer science, went to MIT...
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 当时我是一名医学预科生，正在申请大学，然后我转向了计算机科学，去了麻省理工学院......
And I guess the rest, yeah, is history.
我想剩下的，是的，都是历史了。
MIT is where I met my co-founder, by the way...
顺便说一句，麻省理工学院是我遇见我的联合创始人的地方......
So that's how we know each other for 28 years.
就这样我们认识了28年。
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's wild, to know a co-founder of 28 years.
**Adam Stacoviak：** 认识一位已经工作 28 年的联合创始人，这太疯狂了。
I mean, the history, and the level of trust and maybe somewhat antitrust...
我的意思是，历史、信任程度，也许还有反垄断……
I don't know if that's the case, but --
我不知道情况是否如此，但是——
**Ajay Kulkarni:** When he and I started working together at this point, probably 10 years ago, I remember thinking "I know what I like about Mike, and I know what I don't like about him.
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 当他和我开始合作时，大约是 10 年前，我记得我在想：“我知道我喜欢迈克的什么，也知道我不喜欢他的什么。
And so I want to work with this guy", you know?
所以我想和这个人一起工作”，你知道吗？
**Ajay Kulkarni:** And I'm sure he felt similarly.
**阿贾伊·库尔卡尼：** 我相信他也有类似的感觉。
I think it's a little bit of like a -- I'm not sure I want to call it a spousal relationship, but almost, you know?
我认为这有点像——我不确定我想称之为配偶关系，但几乎，你知道吗？
You're like "Hey, I like you for who you are, the whole package, even though sometimes that package annoys me...
你会说“嘿，我喜欢你这个人，喜欢你的全部，尽管有时这个部分让我很恼火......
And I'm sure you'd say the same thing about me."
我相信你也会对我说同样的话。”
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, Mike is not here, so we can't speak for him, but I'm assuming he might say something like that...
**Adam Stacoviak：** 好吧，迈克不在这里，所以我们不能代表他说话，但我假设他可能会说类似的话......
**Adam Stacoviak:** So CEO of Tiger Data...
**Adam Stacoviak：** Tiger Data 首席执行官......
You were under a different name, a different moniker before...
以前你有不同的名字、不同的绰号……
I do want to go there, but I kind of want to zoom back out a second, just to kind of identify who you are, but more so how you got here.
我确实想去那里，但我有点想缩小一秒钟，只是为了确定你是谁，但更重要的是你是如何到达这里的。
You mentioned MIT, a long road, 28 years, knowing Mike, met him at college, university...
你提到MIT，一条漫长的路，28年，认识Mike，在学院、大学遇见他……
What was the journey from there to go into, I suppose, your career, and what are some of the things you've done that you really feel have defined or identified who you are today?
我想，从那时起，您进入职业生涯的旅程是什么？您所做的哪些事情，您确实认为已经定义或确定了今天的您？
**Ajay Kulkarni:** Yeah, I think I've tried to always follow the thing that kind of tugs my heartstrings...
**阿贾伊·库尔卡尼：** 是的，我想我一直在努力追随那些牵动我心弦的事情......
To be like "Hey, I don't know why, but this is interesting", and really to listen to that.
就像“嘿，我不知道为什么，但这很有趣”，并且真正地倾听。
That's why I ended up at MIT...
这就是我最终进入麻省理工学院的原因......
My high school guidance counselor tried to dissuade me from going, and I was like "Nah, I wanna go.
我的高中辅导员试图劝阻我去，我说：“不，我想去。
I'm gonna go, you know?"
我要走了，你知道吗？”
**Ajay Kulkarni:** And it was hard, but it was great.
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 这很困难，但很棒。
I graduated during the dotcom collapse.
我在互联网泡沫破裂期间毕业。
So at that point tech was not hiring, which just sounds crazy at this point, you know...
所以那时科技公司还没有招聘，这在这一点上听起来很疯狂，你知道......
And I ended up on Wall Street as a bond analyst.
我最终在华尔街担任债券分析师。
But very quickly, after a couple of years, I ended up back in Palo Alto, working for a startup, and I've been working at startups since.
但很快，几年后，我回到了帕洛阿尔托，为一家初创公司工作，从那时起我就一直在初创公司工作。
**Adam Stacoviak:** Okay.
**亚当·斯塔科维亚克：** 好的。
I know exactly what I was doing that year.
我清楚地知道那一年我在做什么。
I was so wayward then...
那时的我真是太任性了……
That was the beginning of my developer career, I would say.
我想说，那是我开发者职业生涯的开始。
Not that this is my story, but just so you kind of understand the cloth there, the timing...
这并不是我的故事，只是让你了解那里的布料、时间......
That was the same year my daughter was born.
那年我女儿出生了。
She is now 21, so that's 21 years ago for you, almost 22 as of this January, if that was the case for you too...
她现在 21 岁了，所以对你来说那是 21 年前的事了，到今年一月就快 22 岁了，如果你也是这样的话……
**Adam Stacoviak:** Thank you.
**亚当·斯塔科维亚克：** 谢谢。
I was in Canada at the time.
当时我在加拿大。
Oddly enough, I'm an American, I'm United States...
奇怪的是，我是美国人，我是美国......
Served our military...
为我们的军队服务...
I don't say that as like a nationalist necessarily \[unintelligible 00:08:17.14\]
我并不是说民族主义者一定是\[难以理解的00:08:17.14\]
**Adam Stacoviak:** In the Army.
**亚当·斯塔科维亚克：** 在军队。
But just to say that I'm not Canadian.
但我只想说我不是加拿大人。
Not that I'm against Canadians...
并不是说我反对加拿大人...
I'm just not Canadian, so I want to be clear about that.
我不是加拿大人，所以我想澄清这一点。
Some people think because I lived in Canada for a bit, they're like "Are you Canadian?" I'm like "No, no. I don't say aboot."
有些人认为因为我在加拿大住过一段时间，他们就会问“你是加拿大人吗？”我说：“不，不。我不是说启动。”
**Ajay Kulkarni:** Probably because you're so friendly.
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 可能是因为你非常友好。
People are like "Oh, you must be Canadian..."
人们会说“哦，你一定是加拿大人……”
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, yeah, maybe that's it.
**Adam Stacoviak：** 嗯，是的，也许就是这样。
But I was fresh...
但我很新鲜...
So I didn't go to college, or to MIT, or to a computer science school, or get a degree in that...
所以我没有上大学，没有上麻省理工学院，没有上计算机科学学校，也没有获得这些学位……
I learned by messing with GeoCities that same year.
同年，我通过研究 GeoCities 学到了这一点。
And that's so funny to even think about...
这真是太有趣了……
I started playing with WordPress, got a job, and almost got fired from a company called IT Weapons.
我开始使用 WordPress，找到了一份工作，差点被一家名为 IT Weapons 的公司解雇。
Still around, in Canada, itweapons.com.
在加拿大，itweapons.com 仍然存在。
One of the most formative moments in my career - I got hired into a sales role I could not do well, because their sales style was so different from what I was used to.
这是我职业生涯中最具影响力的时刻之一 - 我被聘用担任一个我不能做好的销售角色，因为他们的销售风格与我习惯的非常不同。
And I was terrible at that job.
我那份工作很糟糕。
And I knew I was so close to getting fired...
我知道我差一点就被解雇了……
And I took it upon myself to be like "Nah, man...
我自己就觉得“不，伙计......
You're not getting rid of me." Almost like you were with your guidance counselor, "I'm gonna do this." And so I defined the business development role for the company, and started to add value beyond what they thought that I could add...
你不会摆脱我的。”几乎就像你和你的指导顾问一样，“我要做这件事。”因此，我定义了公司的业务开发角色，并开始增加超出他们认为我可以增加的价值......
And they never really told me directly that I was minutes away from getting fired, but I knew it, I knew it in my soul...
他们从来没有真正直接告诉我，我离被解雇只有几分钟的路程，但我知道，我内心知道......
But I also saw the turnaround, and the benefit there, and it was pretty awesome.
但我也看到了转变和好处，这真是太棒了。
So anyways...
所以无论如何...
**Ajay Kulkarni:** I know -- I like that story, because I feel like that is something you don't know you have until it's tested.
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 我知道——我喜欢这个故事，因为我觉得这是在经过测试之前你不知道自己拥有的东西。
**Adam Stacoviak:** I didn't even know I had it, Ajay.
**Adam Stacoviak：** 我什至不知道我拥有它，Ajay。
I had a wife and a brand new daughter coming in those moments, so that timeframe for me...
那时我有一个妻子和一个全新的女儿，所以对我来说那个时间范围......
I could not not survive.
我不能活下去。
I had to find a way.
我必须找到办法。
**Ajay Kulkarni:** I think it's some combination of grit, but also just like an FU mentality...
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 我认为这是勇气的某种结合，但也就像一种 FU 心态......
\[laughs\] It's like "Oh, no, no, no --"
\[笑\]就像“哦，不，不，不——”
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, I was like "Listen, I belong here.
** Adam Stacoviak：** 是的，我当时想“听着，我属于这里。
I love this company...
我喜欢这家公司...
I'm gonna do something about it, I'm gonna figure it out." So I've always been good at connecting the value dots, I would say.
我会做点什么，我会想办法解决的。”所以我想说，我一直擅长连接价值点。
You can call it sales if you want to, and I think that's the easy, in quotes, word you can use...
如果你愿意，你可以称之为销售，我认为这是你可以使用的最简单的、带引号的词......
But I really think I have this uncanny ability to -- and I've just grown into it in my career, and I've leaned into it...
但我真的认为我有这种不可思议的能力——而且我刚刚在我的职业生涯中成长起来，并且我已经倾向于它......
Where I've been able to connect the dots between things that just aren't normally connected, and express and redefine and help shape that value in those connected dots.
我能够将通常不相关的事物之间的点连接起来，并表达、重新定义和帮助塑造这些连接点中的价值。
**Adam Stacoviak:** Let's go back to you, though...
**Adam Stacoviak：** 不过，让我们回到你身上......
This is not about me, but I thought we'd at least encapsulate what was happening in 2004 between our lives...
这不是关于我的，但我想我们至少可以概括 2004 年在我们的生活中发生的事情......
So - much different perspectives.
所以——有很多不同的观点。
But similar, I would say we're -- I'm not a co-founder or a CEO of a tech startup, but certainly a tech brand...
但类似地，我会说我们 - 我不是科技初创公司的联合创始人或首席执行官，但肯定是一个科技品牌......
Changelog.com has been around, we're an institution at this point; 18 years, Ajay.
Changelog.com 已经存在，我们现在是一个机构； 18岁，阿杰。
We started in 2009.
我们从 2009 年开始。
**Ajay Kulkarni:** I mean, in the tech industry, that's like a hundred years or so.
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 我的意思是，在科技行业，这大约是一百年左右。
**Adam Stacoviak:** That is.
**亚当·斯塔科维亚克：** 就是这样。
We're a Wikipedia basically, but not really.
我们基本上是一个维基百科，但不是真正的维基百科。
I'm just kidding.
我只是在开玩笑。
Wikipedia is the eighth, ninth, tenth \[unintelligible 00:11:29.20\] one of those two things, or three things...
维基百科是第八、第九、第十\[无法理解的00:11:29.20\]这两件事之一，或者三件事......
**Ajay Kulkarni:** I'll tell you what's been the theme in my career, is that - when I was on Wall Street, it was a really interesting, an eye-opening experience...
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 我会告诉你我职业生涯的主题是什么，那就是 - 当我在华尔街时，这是一次非常有趣的、令人大开眼界的经历......
Because I was around some really smart people.
因为我周围都是一些非常聪明的人。
I was a quant, around people who all had PhDs, some had multiple PhDs, really hardworking...
我是一名宽客，周围的人都拥有博士学位，有些人拥有多个博士学位，非常勤奋......
It was a meritocracy.
这是一种精英政治。
It wasn't like a lot of, you know, FaceTime.
它不像很多 FaceTime。
I mean, you would work, but it was...
我的意思是，你会工作，但那是......
And I was paid really well, but I didn't like it.
我的薪水很高，但我不喜欢它。
I didn't like it.
我不喜欢它。
And I was like "You know what?
我当时想：“你知道吗？
I feel like this is not who I am." And I felt like I was someone who needed to build, and needed to create.
我觉得这不是我。”我觉得我是一个需要建设、需要创造的人。
And I actually -- I remember going soul-searching, like "Hey, should I go into consumer packaged goods?
事实上，我记得我进行了自我反省，比如“嘿，我应该进入消费品行业吗？
Should I go into--"
我应该进去——”
\[12:16\] At one point I thought about starting a record label, because I'm like "I like music, and I like business, so maybe I'll start a record label." I remember buying a book about it, and doing research...
[12:16] 有一次我想过创办一家唱片公司，因为我想“我喜欢音乐，我喜欢商业，所以也许我会创办一家唱片公司。”我记得买了一本关于它的书，并做了研究......
And at some point I started a chocolate company...
在某个时候，我创办了一家巧克力公司......
And I kind of realized - and it's kind of obvious in hindsight, that "Dude, if you want to build something to make an impact, tech is the best way."
我意识到——事后看来，这是显而易见的，“伙计，如果你想创造一些东西来产生影响，技术是最好的方式。”
**Ajay Kulkarni:** I mean, even more so now, but even back then...
**阿贾伊·库尔卡尼：** 我的意思是，现在更是如此，但即使在那时......
And so I think that's what kind of brought me to tech, and I think that's what keeps fueling me, is like...
所以我认为这就是让我接触科技的原因，我认为这就是不断激励我的原因，就像……
Yeah, just the ability to have a positive impact in the world, and on other people.
是的，就是对世界和其他人产生积极影响的能力。
And it's not always fun, it's not always easy, but I think that's probably the main thing that's been driving me, at least since that insight.
这并不总是很有趣，也不总是容易，但我认为这可能是推动我前进的主要因素，至少自从有了这种洞察力以来。
**Adam Stacoviak:** Hmm.
**亚当·斯塔科维亚克：** 嗯。
Can you expose some scars, some hard years, some bad choices that you can not reflect on, that are formative to who you are today?
你能否揭露一些你无法反思的伤疤、一些艰难的岁月、一些错误的选择，这些都塑造了今天的你？
Kind of like what I did with you a little bit.
有点像我对你做的事情。
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, where are the forks in the road that you're like "Man, that's the moment where I learned this hard lesson", or that's the moment -- I know you mentioned Mike, and 28 years, so maybe that's one of those forks, but...
** Adam Stacoviak：** 是的，道路上的岔路口在哪里，你会说“伙计，那是我学到这一惨痛教训的时刻”，或者就是那一刻 - 我知道你提到了迈克，还有 28 年，所以也许那是其中一个岔路口，但是......
Just those moments where you look back now -- and it's kind of funny, because in the moment sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees, right?
就那些你现在回头看的时刻——这有点有趣，因为有时我们只见树木不见森林，对吧？
And we think like this choice or this thing happening is the end of the world, or is the biggest choice ever.
我们认为这个选择或发生的这件事是世界末日，或者是有史以来最大的选择。
And it may be in that moment, but when you get past it, you sort of get past it with hindsight...
也许就在那一刻，但当你过去了，事后看来，你就过去了……
And that's why it is truly 20/20, because you look back with so much clarity.
这就是为什么它是真正的 20/20，因为你回顾起来非常清晰。
What were some of those moments for you when it was unclear, a choice you had to make, but now it's like, it's clearly defined who you are today.
对你来说，有些时刻是不清楚的，你必须做出选择，但现在就像，它清楚地定义了你今天是谁。
**Adam Stacoviak:** Scars, bloody knuckles...
**亚当·斯塔科维亚克：** 伤疤，血淋淋的指关节......
You know, sometimes mistakes can be either/or, sometimes the positive choice we make can be either/or, a scar or a bloody knuckle.
你知道，有时错误可能是非此即彼，有时我们做出的积极选择可能是非此即彼，疤痕或指关节流血。
**Ajay Kulkarni:** I mean, look, I think you probably know this - entrepreneurship is a series of mistakes.
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 我的意思是，听着，我想你可能知道这一点 - 创业是一系列的错误。
And the key is just like not letting the company die, despite your mistakes.
关键是不要让公司消亡，尽管你犯了错误。
There's many I've made over the years: bad hires, bad strategic decisions...
这些年来我做了很多事情：糟糕的招聘、糟糕的战略决策……
I'll tell you one actually that started even before then...
我会告诉你一个实际上甚至在那之前就开始的......
I used to work at this company - and I won't mention \[unintelligible 00:14:42.17\] because I'm not trying to throw anyone under the bus...
我曾经在这家公司工作过 - 我不会提及\[无法理解的00:14:42.17\]因为我不想让任何人陷入困境......
But I used to work at this company where I was in charge of an engineering team, and somehow I thought I was on track to get more responsibility, and somehow there was this internal uproar, and I realized people didn't like me.
但我曾经在这家公司工作，负责一个工程团队，不知何故，我认为我有望承担更多责任，但不知何故，内部出现了骚动，我意识到人们不喜欢我。
And it was an uproar, and I ended up getting sidelined.
这引起了轩然大波，我最终被边缘化了。
And that hurt for a couple of reasons.
这造成了一些伤害，原因有几个。
Number one, I'm kind of a sensitive guy...
第一，我是一个比较敏感的人...
Yeah, I'm an entrepreneur, but I'm like "Look, dude, if you genuinely don't like me", I'd be like "Why?" I'm curious, because I'm like "Did I do anything to offend you?" But also, I was just caught off guard.
是的，我是一名企业家，但我会说“听着，伙计，如果你真的不喜欢我”，我会说“为什么？”我很好奇，因为我想“我做了什么冒犯你的事吗？”但同时，我也措手不及。
And what I realized is that part of that was my fault.
我意识到这部分是我的错。
Part of that was I think I came across more dictator-like than I intended, but part was, I would say, maybe indirectly my fault, where there were some decisions that were made where I took the heat for it, where it wasn't actually a decision that I made.
部分原因是我认为我遇到的独裁者比我预想的要多，但部分原因是，我想说，也许间接是我的错，有些决定是我冒着风险做出的，但实际上并不是我做出的决定。
\[15:58\] I guess, I don't know, maybe -- I guess, long story, I think I changed my style, but I also realized that you have to look out for yourself, and your manager, whoever, that they will not necessarily look out for you.
[15:58] 我想，我不知道，也许——我想，长话短说，我想我改变了我的风格，但我也意识到你必须照顾自己，还有你的经理，无论是谁，他们不一定会照顾你。
But also, conversely, I've tried to be the type of manager who looks out for people.
但相反，我也努力成为那种关心员工的经理。
I don't know if that's an interesting story, Adam, but like...
我不知道这是否是一个有趣的故事，亚当，但是就像......
\[laughs\]
\[笑\]
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, so let's zoom into maybe how are you changed as a result?
**Adam Stacoviak：** 好吧，让我们放大一下，也许你因此而发生了怎样的改变？
What did you do to -- where I'm trying to go to is how did you get here?
你做了什么——我想去的地方就是你是怎么到这里的？
...in terms of not just where you're at in this moment, but like the person you are leading the company you are.
...不仅涉及您此时此刻所处的位置，还涉及您领导公司的人。
What are some of the things that were in your past, or in your choice line, that has now helped Ajay today be Ajay to lead?
您过去或您选择的路线中有哪些事情现在帮助阿贾伊今天成为阿贾伊的领导者？
**Ajay Kulkarni:** Yeah, I would say that I've made -- I'm not sure you want to call them mistakes, or just, I've had learning experiences over the years...
**阿贾伊·库尔卡尼：** 是的，我想说我已经犯了——我不确定你想称它们为错误，或者只是，多年来我有学习经验......
And I think that I've formed who I am today.
我认为我已经形成了今天的我。
I think the key theme - and this is not all of them, but I think one key theme is I have learned how to trust myself.
我认为关键主题 - 这不是全部，但我认为一个关键主题是我学会了如何相信自己。
I remember early on I would make some hires, for example, in sales, that didn't gut feel right to me...
我记得早些时候我会招聘一些员工，例如销售人员，这对我来说并不合适......
But I was new to enterprise sales, I was new to the database business.
但我对企业销售、数据库业务都是新手。
And in hindsight, my gut was right.
事后看来，我的直觉是对的。
My gut was right that "Hey, the general --" I like to say "In a fast-moving industry, expertise is a liability." So in the database world, as the databases were moving from enterprise sales and on-prem to like cloud and PLG, the people who could sell this would be totally the wrong people for this.
我的直觉是对的，“嘿，将军——”我喜欢说“在一个快速发展的行业，专业知识是一种责任。”因此，在数据库领域，随着数据库从企业销售和本地部署转向云和 PLG 等，能够销售这些数据库的人将是完全错误的人。
And I kind of felt that, but I couldn't articulate it...
我也有这种感觉，但又说不出来……
And I made a few hires that I had to let go, and that's my fault.
我雇佣了一些人，但我不得不放弃，这是我的错。
That's on me.
那是我的事。
But I think that's one thing that taught me that "Hey, you got this far for a reason.
但我认为这是一件事教会了我“嘿，你走到这一步是有原因的。
Listen to your gut.
听听你的直觉。
And if you can't articulate it, then try to take the time to articulate it."
如果你无法清楚地表达出来，那就试着花点时间来表达出来。”
I think more recently...
我觉得最近...
Look, I have a conversational style that myself -- both Mike and I, we talk about this...
看，我自己有一种对话风格——迈克和我，我们谈论这个......
It's called cooperative overlapping.
这称为合作重叠。
It essentially means that we interrupt a lot.
这本质上意味着我们经常打断。
But we interrupt because that's how we talk.
但我们会打断他们，因为我们就是这样说话的。
Like, if you interrupt me, I feed on that.
就像，如果你打断我，我就会以此为食。
And one thing we realize is that -- well, at one point there was some people on my executive team who were like "We need to interrupt less." And I remember thinking -- my first thought was "You're right, we should interrupt less." And my second thought was "No, this is who we are..." \[laughs\] Like, we got this far for who we are, you know?
我们意识到的一件事是——嗯，在某个时刻，我的执行团队中有些人说“我们需要减少打扰”。我记得我当时想——我的第一个想法是“你是对的，我们应该少打扰。”我的第二个想法是“不，这就是我们……”[笑]就像，我们已经走到这一步了，你知道吗？
And at a company either you ask the founders to change, or you ask the whole company to change, you know?
在一家公司，你要么要求创始人改变，要么要求整个公司改变，你知道吗？
**Ajay Kulkarni:** And what I realized is that there are people in the company who liked who we are.
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 我意识到公司里有人喜欢我们。
They liked that we interrupted, you know?
他们喜欢我们打断你，你知道吗？
And so I got to the point, I was like "Yeah, you know what--" You know, we talk about California mentality versus New York mentality...
所以我说到了重点，我就像“是的，你知道吗——”你知道，我们谈论加州心态与纽约心态......
New York mentality is "Hey, I'll be kind to you, but I may not be nice.
纽约人的心态是“嘿，我会对你友善，但我可能不会友善。
I'll be gruff on the street, but I'll help you." And that's just the New York way.
我在街上会很粗鲁，但我会帮助你。”这就是纽约的方式。
And if you're in New York, you have to realize that, that when people are too busy to talk to you, they're not being rude; they're actually trying to be respectful of your time.
如果你在纽约，你必须意识到，当人们太忙而无法与你交谈时，他们并不是粗鲁；而是他们很粗鲁。他们实际上是在努力尊重您的时间。
So yeah, I think -- I don't know, I feel like over the years not trusting my own instinct has...
所以，是的，我想——我不知道，我觉得多年来不相信自己的直觉......
I mean, you live with the consequences.
我的意思是，你要承担后果。
And so I think I've learned that "Hey, just trust your instinct, because whether you win or lose, it's on you."
所以我想我已经学会了“嘿，相信你的直觉，因为无论你赢还是输，都取决于你。”
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[19:42\] Yeah.
**亚当·斯塔科维亚克：** \[19:42\] 是的。
One thing I wrote down a while back...
前一段时间我写下的一件事...
This is actually 2012.
这实际上是2012年。
September, 2012.
2012 年 9 月。
And it was the question of "Where does a company's culture come from?" And essentially, it's boiled down to what you just said there, which is a founder's values and principles define the company's culture.
这就是“公司文化从何而来？”的问题。从本质上讲，这可以归结为你刚才所说的，即创始人的价值观和原则定义了公司的文化。
And so these things, they kind of -- they're top down in a way, but if you don't have, I guess, fortitude in who you are and why you are the way you are to push back when somebody says "Hey, maybe that's not cool", and you're like "I can kind of see that, but at the same time, it's kind of who I am.
所以这些事情，它们在某种程度上是自上而下的，但我想，如果你没有坚韧的毅力，不知道自己是谁，为什么你会这样，当有人说“嘿，也许这不酷”时，你就会反击，你会说“我可以看到这一点，但同时，这就是我。
And here's why I'm delivering my message this way, or why the way I speak this way." And it's less about interrupting, but more about that cooperative -- what did you call it, cooperative overlap?
这就是为什么我要这样传达我的信息，或者为什么我要这样说话。”与其说是打断，不如说是合作——你怎么称呼它，合作重叠？
Is that right?
是这样吗？
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah.
**亚当·斯塔科维亚克：** 是的。
And so it does put a name to it to tame it.
所以它确实给它起了一个名字来驯服它。
So it's not interruption, it's meant to be a courteous interrupt to probably provoke deeper conversation, or to provoke more collaboration and involvement, right?
所以这不是打扰，而是一种礼貌的打扰，可能会引发更深入的对话，或者引发更多的协作和参与，对吧？
Isn't that probably the reason for --
这或许不是因为——
**Ajay Kulkarni:** No, totally, but I think it's also a function of like "Don't try to shore up your weaknesses, try to lean on your strengths." So I am an intense person.
**阿贾伊·库尔卡尼：** 不，完全不，但我认为这也是“不要试图弥补你的弱点，而是尝试依靠你的强项”的功能。所以我是一个热情的人。
When I was younger, I would feel bad about it, because some people were like "Oh...
当我年轻的时候，我会为此感到难过，因为有些人会说“哦......
Well, you're intense." But now I'm like "No, it's just who I am." And some people love that about me.
嗯，你很激烈。”但现在我想“不，这就是我”。有些人喜欢我这一点。
And there's some things I can do really well because I am intense, you know?
有些事情我可以做得很好，因为我很热情，你知道吗？
It's who I am.
这就是我。
If you don't like that, cool.
如果你不喜欢这样，那好吧。
We don't have to work together.
我们不必一起工作。
Similarly, I talk a little fast.
同样，我说话有点快。
I remember at one point I was giving a presentation, and some of my peers were like "Oh, why don't you slow down?
我记得有一次我正在做一场演讲，我的一些同事说：“哦，你为什么不慢下来呢？
You're talking really fast." And I slowed down, and they were like "No, this is worse.
你说得真快。”我放慢了速度，他们就像“不，这更糟糕。
It was better when you talked fast, because your energy was there", you know?
当你说得快的时候效果更好，因为你的能量就在那里”，你知道吗？
And I was like "You know what?
我当时想：“你知道吗？
Yeah, I talk fast, and maybe I might muddle some words sometimes, but that is who I am.
是的，我说得很快，也许有时我可能会混淆一些话，但这就是我。
That's how my energy comes through." And just lean on that.
这就是我的能量的来源。”就依靠这一点。
I often talk -- I talked about it with Mike, it's like, we both have weaknesses, we both have flaws...
我经常谈论——我和迈克谈论过，就像，我们都有弱点，我们都有缺陷......
And in the past, I would have been like "Oh, we have to work on these." And now I've said, "You know what?
在过去，我会说“哦，我们必须在这些方面努力。”现在我说：“你知道吗？
Don't try to teach a fish to climb a tree, you know?" If you're a fish, swim better, you know?
不要试图教鱼爬树，知道吗？”如果你是一条鱼，就游得更好，你知道吗？
Don't be like "Oh, I can climb a tree."
不要说“哦，我会爬树。”
**Ajay Kulkarni:** Dory...
**阿贾伊·库尔卡尼：** 多莉……
Yeah, that's right.
是的，没错。
Keep swimming.
继续游泳。
But it's just like, figure out who you are...
但这就像，弄清楚你是谁......
Yeah, and lean into it.
是的，并投入其中。
I mean, people talk about this in athletics, how once upon a time, maybe 50-60 years ago, the idea of the ideal athlete was someone who was just balanced in every possible way.
我的意思是，人们在田径运动中谈论这一点，很久以前，也许是 50-60 年前，理想的运动员的想法是在所有可能的方面都保持平衡的人。
Not too tall, not too short, not too strong, not too weak...
不太高，不太矮，不太强，不太弱......
And now they realize that - no, you actually want the genetic freaks, you know?
现在他们意识到 - 不，你实际上想要基因怪胎，你知道吗？
That's where you get the alpha, you know?
这就是你获得阿尔法的地方，你知道吗？
You're someone who's like -- if your wingspan is like...
你是这样的人——如果你的翼展是...
**Ajay Kulkarni:** Yeah, dude.
**阿贾伊·库尔卡尼：** 是的，伙计。
Totally.
完全。
Michael Phelps is like - what, 6'4", 6'5", I think?
迈克尔·菲尔普斯就像 - 什么，6 英尺 4 英寸、6 英尺 5 英寸，我想？
**Ajay Kulkarni:** And there's this marathon runner who I think is like 5'7".
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 还有一位马拉松运动员，我认为他身高大约为 5 英尺 7 英寸。
And I remember reading an article that talked about how they wear the same pants.
我记得读过一篇文章，谈到他们如何穿同一条裤子。
Because the marathon runner is all legs.
因为马拉松运动员都是腿。
And Michael Phelps is all torso.
迈克尔菲尔普斯全是躯干。
**Ajay Kulkarni:** And you're like "Yeah--", you know?
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 你会说“是啊——”，你知道吗？
You don't get good at a sport by being balanced in everything.
你不可能通过在所有事情上保持平衡来擅长一项运动。
You find the thing where you have the edge, and you lean into that, you know?
你找到了你有优势的东西，然后你就倾向于它，你知道吗？
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah.
**亚当·斯塔科维亚克：** 是的。
One thing you mentioned was this -- it seems like you've got some history in enterprise sales, enterprise database, you mentioned PLG, product-led growth...
您提到的一件事是——您似乎在企业销售、企业数据库方面有一些历史，您提到了 PLG、产品主导的增长......
Help me understand some of your backstory when it comes to I guess just databases in general.
帮助我了解您的一些背景故事，我猜只是一般的数据库。
How did you get into that world?
你是怎么进入那个世界的？
What was that world for you, and how has it changed to now?
那个世界对你来说是什么样的，现在发生了什么变化？
**Ajay Kulkarni:** \[23:52\] Yeah, I mean, I've been using databases since the late '90s, I guess, ever since I started getting into computer science.
**Ajay Kulkarni：** \[23:52\] 是的，我的意思是，我想，从 90 年代末开始，自从我开始进入计算机科学以来，我就一直在使用数据库。
I started using probably MySQL in 2004, Postgres in 2011, I think, thanks to Heroku...
我可能从 2004 年开始使用 MySQL，从 2011 年开始使用 Postgres，我想，这要感谢 Heroku……
So I've always been involved in databases.
所以我一直和数据库打交道。
I think what's interesting to me is when we started this company, which was then Timescale, we entered a world where the success stories were companies like Hortonworks and Cloudera.
我认为对我来说有趣的是，当我们创办这家公司（当时的 Timescale）时，我们进入了一个以 Hortonworks 和 Cloudera 等公司为成功案例的世界。
Really big on-prem.
本地真的很大。
And that was not my background at all.
那根本不是我的背景。
I'd never been a salesperson, never worked with enterprise salespeople...
我从来没有当过销售人员，从未与企业销售人员一起工作过......
Now I know what these terms mean, but back then capacity planning, quota coverage, territories - they meant nothing to me.
现在我知道这些术语的含义，但在当时，容量规划、配额覆盖范围、领土——它们对我来说毫无意义。
And we slowly had to learn it.
我们必须慢慢地学习它。
But I also had this inkling that "Hey, you know what?
但我也有这样的预感：“嘿，你知道吗？
I feel like the database industry is changing.
我觉得数据库行业正在发生变化。
It's changing from that old model to something that looks more like SaaS." And SaaS is less about enterprise sales, more about building a great product.
它正在从旧的模式转变为看起来更像 SaaS 的模式。”SaaS 的重点不是企业销售，而是构建出色的产品。
And I knew how to do that.
我知道该怎么做。
And so I think that was part of the journey, it was starting off as a user, getting into an industry not really realizing how the business worked...
所以我认为这是旅程的一部分，它是从用户开始，进入一个行业并没有真正意识到业务是如何运作的......
But then, again, I think following my instinct to be like "Hey, I think this industry is shifting."
但话又说回来，我想遵循我的直觉，“嘿，我认为这个行业正在发生转变。”
One thing I like to say about myself and my co-founders is that we're very good students of the game.
关于我自己和我的联合创始人，我想说的一件事是，我们是这个游戏的优秀学生。
And so we were new to open source licensing, and then quickly became open source licensing experts.
因此，我们是开源许可的新手，然后很快就成为开源许可专家。
I would say we were new to PLG and sales, but I think now we're -- I'm not sure if we're experts, but I think we're probably top quartile or whatever for that.
我想说我们对 PLG 和销售是新手，但我认为现在我们——我不确定我们是否是专家，但我认为我们可能是前四分之一或其他什么。
**Adam Stacoviak:** You know, I think about the way databases have changed, and the way the sales of them have changed.
**Adam Stacoviak：** 你知道，我思考数据库的变化方式以及它们的销售方式的变化。
Largely, it's as if -- if you're not an open source database, you're not worth your weight in gold, because it's a black box; things can change.
很大程度上，就好像——如果你不是一个开源数据库，那么你就不值金子，因为它是一个黑匣子；事情可能会改变。
Even the term - and this may cut deep to you, potentially - is Postgres-compatible.
甚至这个术语（这可能会让您感到很深）也是 Postgres 兼容的。
I think Timescale has never been Postgres-compatible.
我认为 Timescale 从来都不是 Postgres 兼容的。
It's always been Postgres-native...
它一直是 Postgres 原生的......
**Adam Stacoviak:** ...but some out there choose that Postgres-compatible, and that's because they wanna do business differently, they wanna license differently...
**Adam Stacoviak：** ...但是有些人选择与 Postgres 兼容，那是因为他们想要以不同的方式开展业务，他们想要以不同的方式许可......
And I think the PLG model has obviously -- one, I feel as a developer if I can't go and play with your tool, even not so much in a free capacity, but the ability to explore it and learn it, and then trust it...
我认为 PLG 模型显然具有——第一，我觉得作为一名开发人员，如果我不能去使用你的工具，即使不是以自由身份，但有能力探索它、学习它，然后信任它……
That's the way.
就是这样。
That's the way of the developer.
这就是开发商的做法。
You've got a side project, you've got an itch you wanna scratch, you wanna try this different thing...
你有一个副业项目，你有一个想要抓挠的痒，你想尝试这个不同的东西......
And if you're not going that route, it's kinda hard to really instantiate change in your organization.
如果你不走这条路，就很难在你的组织中真正实现变革。
You may go from one database to another, or you have an idea, and if you can't go and explore it and carve it out for yourself and present it to your team, that's the way of PLG; that's the way of open source.
你可能从一个数据库转到另一个数据库，或者你有一个想法，如果你不能去探索它并为自己创造它并呈现给你的团队，这就是PLG的方式；这就是开源的方式。
**Ajay Kulkarni:** Yeah, no, it's fascinating, because I think databases, like software, used to be something where the key decision-maker was the CIO or CTO, and that deal was done in a steakhouse or on a golf course.
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 是的，不，这很有趣，因为我认为数据库和软件一样，过去的关键决策者是 CIO 或 CTO，而这笔交易是在牛排馆或高尔夫球场完成的。
That's how it used to be.
过去就是这样。
And with the shift to SaaS, and then to shift to cloud for databases, that decision moved to "No, it's a developer sitting at their computer, just making the choice based on some combination of what they read, what their peers told them, and what their own visceral experience was." And I think that's been fascinating for me, because - I mean, I think it's totally changed.
随着转向 SaaS，然后转向云数据库，这个决定变成了“不，开发人员坐在他们的电脑前，只是根据他们阅读的内容、同事告诉他们的内容以及他们自己的内心体验进行选择。”我认为这对我来说很有趣，因为 - 我的意思是，我认为它完全改变了。
I mean, the core job that a database does has not changed, but I think the way you build the business has totally changed from being more sales-led to being more product-led.
我的意思是，数据库所做的核心工作没有改变，但我认为构建业务的方式已经完全改变，从更多以销售为主导转变为更多以产品为主导。
I think that's been interesting.
我认为这很有趣。
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah.
**亚当·斯塔科维亚克：** 是的。
What was the original challenge you faced to even consider creating Timescale?
您在考虑创建 Timescale 时最初面临的挑战是什么？
What was that moment, and when was that moment?
那一刻是什么？那一刻是什么时候？
**Ajay Kulkarni:** \[28:06\] We started off as a company building an IoT platform, internet of things.
**Ajay Kulkarni：** \[28:06\] 我们最初是一家构建物联网平台、物联网的公司。
And it's like 2015.
就像2015年一样。
Yeah, I mean, back then I'd just spent 10 years in mobile, and I remember thinking "Wow--" Mobile was really exciting, but around 2014 it started to get a little bit boring.
是的，我的意思是，当时我刚刚在移动领域工作了 10 年，我记得我当时想“哇——”移动真的很令人兴奋，但在 2014 年左右，它开始变得有点无聊。
Pre and post iPhone it was exciting, but then in 2014 you're like "Okay, I have enough apps." I'm like "What's the next thing?", and IoT felt like the next wave of computing.
iPhone 出现之前和之后都令人兴奋，但到了 2014 年，你会觉得“好吧，我有足够的应用程序了。”我想“下一步是什么？”，物联网感觉就像下一波计算浪潮。
And so we started off building what we thought the market needed, which was a data platform for IoT devices.
因此，我们开始构建我们认为市场需要的东西，即物联网设备的数据平台。
And that idea was moderately successful.
这个想法取得了一定的成功。
We tracked over 100,000 devices, we raised the seed round, built a small team...
我们跟踪了超过 100,000 台设备，筹集了种子轮资金，建立了一个小团队......
But we needed a database to store all this data.
但我们需要一个数据库来存储所有这些数据。
And we were using a time-series database, we were using a relational database...
我们使用的是时间序列数据库，我们使用的是关系数据库......
And I remember at one point we wanted to sort the console by like uptime, but then show all the device metadata...
我记得有一次我们想按正常运行时间对控制台进行排序，然后显示所有设备元数据......
And what should have been a simple SQL join ended up being like a two-week engineering sprint, because you had to connect these two siloed systems.
本来应该是简单的 SQL 连接最终变成了为期两周的工程冲刺，因为您必须连接这两个孤立的系统。
And I remember thinking "Oh, this is awful.
我记得我当时想：“哦，这太糟糕了。
This sucks." And one of our engineers said "Hey, I could build this on Postgres, but it'll take me a month." And I was like "Okay, cool.
这太糟糕了。”我们的一位工程师说：“嘿，我可以在 Postgres 上构建这个，但这需要我一个月的时间。”我当时想：“好吧，酷。
You're an optimistic engineer, so it'll probably take you three months." And 12 months later...
你是一位乐观的工程师，所以这可能需要你三个月的时间。” 12个月后...
\[laughs\]
\[笑\]
**Ajay Kulkarni:** ...we had this database.
**Ajay Kulkarni：** ...我们有这个数据库。
And I'm trying to sell this IoT platform...
我正在尝试出售这个物联网平台......
And look, as an entrepreneur you learn to listen to signals of when someone is really engaged.
看，作为一名企业家，你要学会倾听某人真正投入的信号。
And when someone's like "Oh yeah, that's cool", that's not cool.
当有人说“哦，是的，那很酷”时，那就不酷了。
But when someone's like "Wait, wait, wait, hold on...
但当有人说“等等，等等，等等，等等……”
Can you tell me that again?", you're like "Okay, there's something that's interesting to you."
你能再告诉我一遍吗？”，你会说“好吧，有一些你感兴趣的事情。”
So here I am, trying to sell this IoT platform, and I'm meeting with the German head architect of this large shipping logistics company...
所以我在这里，试图出售这个物联网平台，并且我正在与这家大型航运物流公司的德国首席架构师会面......
I'm meeting them in Mountain View, and I'm telling him about this IoT platform.
我在山景城与他们会面，并向他介绍这个物联网平台。
And he's like "Look, there's so many IoT platforms out there.
他说：“看，那里有很多物联网平台。
What makes yours different?" And I was like "Oh, we built our own database, it does SQL, it scales for time-series..." And then he was like "Wait, wait, hold on...
是什么让你的与众不同？”我当时就想“哦，我们建立了自己的数据库，它可以执行 SQL，可以根据时间序列进行扩展……”然后他就说“等等，等等，等等……”
Wait, can you tell me more about that database?" And I think that's when I realized "Wait, this is solving a -- this is actually solving the right problem." And that's how it became a database company.
等等，你能告诉我更多有关该数据库的信息吗？”我想就在那时我意识到“等等，这正在解决——这实际上正在解决正确的问题。”这就是它成为一家数据库公司的原因。
So yeah, long story short, we kind of scratched our own itch and realized other people have the same itch...
所以，是的，长话短说，我们有点挠自己的痒，并意识到其他人也有同样的痒......
But again, we are students, we listen really well to the market, we try not to be dogmatic....
但同样，我们是学生，我们很好地倾听市场的声音，我们尽量不教条......
And when someone says "That thing's not interesting, but this thing is", we're like "Hey, we're not here just to build that thing.
当有人说“那东西并不有趣，但这个东西很有趣”时，我们会说“嘿，我们来这里不仅仅是为了建造那个东西。
We're here to solve a problem.
我们来这里是为了解决问题。
This solves a bigger problem.
这就解决了一个更大的问题。
Let's explore that."
让我们来探讨一下。”
**Adam Stacoviak:** So there's a name change of recent, which I think is challenging, but it kind of maybe shows the evolution...
**Adam Stacoviak：** 所以最近有一个更名，我认为这是具有挑战性的，但它可能显示了演变......
What's the evolution of that discovery, that 12-month discovery, scratch your own itch, IoT company, to Timescale to now be Tiger Data?
这个发现，这个 12 个月的发现，物联网公司，从 Timescale 到现在的 Tiger Data，经历了怎样的演变？
**Ajay Kulkarni:** We started off thinking we were building a time series database for IoT.
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 我们一开始认为我们正在为物联网构建一个时间序列数据库。
That's where we started.
这就是我们开始的地方。
And so when we kind of pivoted to become a database company early 2017, we called ourselves Timescale.
因此，当我们在 2017 年初转型成为一家数据库公司时，我们称自己为 Timescale。
That seemed like a good name for a time-series database.
对于时间序列数据库来说，这似乎是一个好名字。
**Ajay Kulkarni:** It's cool, it's pretty self-explanatory.
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 这很酷，非常不言自明。
And we actually saw there was a big demand in time-series that was more than IoT; some in finance, and events, and then soon crypto, and some other areas...
事实上，我们看到时间序列的需求不仅仅是物联网；一些在金融和活动领域，然后很快就会在加密货币和其他一些领域......
But over time -- again, we were going with this journey with the industry.
但随着时间的推移，我们再次与行业一起踏上这段旅程。
We started off as an enterprise sales motion...
我们从一项企业销售行动开始......
At the beginning of the pandemic we went all-in on cloud, stopped selling on-prem, and said "Hey, we're gonna be a cloud company." And yeah, at that point we were running databases for customers, and we got to see a lot of data.
在大流行开始时，我们全力投入云计算，停止本地销售，并说“嘿，我们将成为一家云公司。”是的，当时我们正在为客户运行数据库，我们看到了大量数据。
And I saw "Wow, there are a lot of companies who are like 20 people spending 50k, 100k, 150K with us." And I remember asking "Hey, what are you doing?
我看到“哇，有很多公司大约有 20 个人在我们这里花费了 5 万、10 万、15 万。”我记得我问“嘿，你在做什么？
What do you use this for?" And I remember one of them was like "Hey, I think of you as a better Postgres.
你用这个做什么？”我记得其中一个人说：“嘿，我认为你是一个更好的 Postgres。
I don't think of you as just a time-series database.
我不认为你只是一个时间序列数据库。
I think of you as my main -- you are our main database.
我认为你是我的主要——你是我们的主要数据库。
You are 50% of our cloud spend.
您占我们云支出的 50%。
You are our main database, because you are a better Postgres."
你是我们的主要数据库，因为你是更好的 Postgres。”
And then we realized what we had built was not just a better time-series database, but a better Postgres.
然后我们意识到我们构建的不仅仅是一个更好的时间序列数据库，而且是一个更好的 Postgres。
And we kind of expanded that better Postgres theme by adding vector support, and better native AI support...
我们通过添加矢量支持和更好的本机 AI 支持来扩展更好的 Postgres 主题......
And we got to the point where this year we realized "Hey, we keep calling ourselves Timescale, and people view us as a time-series database", but we had already become something more than that.
今年我们意识到“嘿，我们一直称自己为 Timescale，人们将我们视为时间序列数据库”，但我们已经变得不止于此。
It's as if like amazon.com has started off as books.com.
就好像 amazon.com 最初是 books.com 一样。
And you're like "Hey, at books.com we also sell CDs." People would be like "Yeah, but you're books.com." "No, hey, we also sell like socks." "Yeah, but you're books.com." And that's what Timescale was.
你会说“嘿，在 books.com，我们也卖 CD。”人们会说“是的，但你是 books.com。” “不，嘿，我们也像卖袜子一样卖。” “是的，但你是 books.com。”这就是时间刻度。
Timescale was like "Yeah, you do AI, but AI with time-series, right?" And we're like "Well, no. AI.
时间尺度就像“是的，你做人工智能，但人工智能有时间序列，对吧？”我们就像“嗯，不。人工智能。
You know?"
你知道吗？”
And I think our first attempt was trying to make Timescale mean more than time-series.
我认为我们的第一次尝试是试图让时间刻度不仅仅意味着时间序列。
Like, you know, when it's time to scale, I don't know...
就像，你知道，当需要扩展时，我不知道......
\[laughs\] And I'm not sure if you've ever seen the movie Mean Girls, but there's a line in there that Mike has quoted, where he goes "It's like trying to make fetch happen.
\[笑\]我不确定你是否看过电影《贱女孩》，但迈克引用了其中的一句台词，他说“这就像试图让取物发生一样。
Like, it's not gonna happen." Like, we're trying to make this term stick which wasn't sticking.
就像，这不会发生。”就像，我们试图让这个术语变得粘起来，但实际上并没有粘住。
And so we're like "Hey, you know what?
所以我们就像“嘿，你知道吗？
We need a new name, because we are Amazon.
我们需要一个新名字，因为我们是亚马逊。
We're not books.com." But we're not pivoting, we're actually changing the name to properly reflect who we'd already become.
我们不是 books.com。”但我们并没有改变方向，我们实际上是在改变名字，以正确地反映我们已经成为的样子。
**Ajay Kulkarni:** And Tiger Data was like the perfect name for us, because our mascot's always been the tiger...
**Ajay Kulkarni：** Tiger Data 对我们来说是一个完美的名字，因为我们的吉祥物一直是老虎......
Internally, we talk about Tiger time, that's our all hands.
在内部，我们谈论老虎时间，那是我们的全部力量。
We talk about state of the Tiger; it's my monthly presentation to the company.
我们谈论老虎的状态；这是我每月向公司做的演示。
New people who joined the company are Tiger cubs...
新加入公司的人是小虎崽……
And -- yeah, we've an internal tiger mascot...
而且 - 是的，我们有一个内部老虎吉祥物......
And so the name Tiger just worked because it was who we already identified with, and to our existing customers it looked like "Yeah, it's your same logo.
因此，老虎这个名字之所以有效，是因为我们已经认同了它，而对于我们现有的客户来说，它看起来就像“是的，这是你的同一个标志。
Cool, I get it." And some new people were a little confused, but we were like "You know what?
酷，我明白了。”一些新人有点困惑，但我们就像“你知道吗？
In 12 months you will not be confused.
12个月后你就不会感到困惑了。
And this is the right thing to do." So that's why we made that change.
这是正确的做法。”这就是我们做出这一改变的原因。
**Adam Stacoviak:** Was it scary to get to the point where you're like "You know what?
**Adam Stacoviak：** 达到“你知道吗？”的程度是不是很可怕？
The only way forward is a name change.
唯一的出路就是改名。
Nothing else, just the name."
没什么别的，只是名字而已。”
**Ajay Kulkarni:** You know, it got to the point -- which probably means we'd waited too long...
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 你知道，事情已经到了重点——这可能意味着我们等得太久了......
It got to the point where it was painfully obvious to us.
它已经到了我们痛苦地显而易见的地步。
**Ajay Kulkarni:** And I remember -- and I told the team "Look, this is not going to solve any problems, but it is going to remove an anchor that is holding us back." Like, it's still on us to kind of move the ship, you know...
**阿贾伊·库尔卡尼：** 我记得 - 我告诉团队“看，这不会解决任何问题，但它将消除阻碍我们前进的锚。”就像，我们仍然有责任移动这艘船，你知道......
But it removes an anchor.
但它移除了一个锚。
I think the key thing is you just have to stick to the decision and be like "Yeah, it's going to be messy.
我认为关键是你必须坚持你的决定，并说“是的，这会很混乱。
It's going to be maybe a year of people being like "Who are you again?" And we being like "Yeah, we're Tiger Data", you know?
也许今年人们会问“你又是谁？”我们就像“是的，我们是 Tiger Data”，你知道吗？
I actually think the name is catching on faster than I expected.
事实上，我认为这个名字的流行速度比我预期的要快。
I think the name change went as smooth as we could have hoped, and I think people -- TimescaleDB I think still has more brand awareness, but I think Tiger Data is catching up.
我认为更名过程正如我们所希望的那样顺利，我认为人们——TimescaleDB我认为仍然有更多的品牌知名度，但我认为Tiger Data正在迎头赶上。
**Ajay Kulkarni:** Yeah...
**阿贾伊·库尔卡尼：** 是的......
Some people made fun of us, but whatever...
有些人取笑我们，但无论如何......
\[laughs\]
\[笑\]
**Adam Stacoviak:** Haters do hate.
**亚当·斯塔科维亚克：** 仇恨者确实仇恨。
So our audience knows this, you've been a sponsor for a bit, too...
所以我们的观众都知道这一点，你也曾担任过一段时间的赞助商......
And I mentioned maybe in the pre-call, maybe in the early part of it, Isabelle is someone who works for you, and we've known each other for years, since the MongoDB days...
我也许在通话前，也许在通话的早期提到过，Isabelle 是为你工作的人，我们已经认识很多年了，从 MongoDB 时代开始......
And we would have conversations -- and this is when you were Timescale.
我们会进行对话——这就是你在 Timescale 的时候。
And this is what I do whenever I sit down with a brand and I think about how can we help them reach our audience in a way that is informative, educational, and just something that helps them be curious and try it, if it's something that fits in their world, essentially.
每当我与一个品牌坐下来时，我都会这样做，我会思考如何帮助他们以一种信息丰富、有教育意义的方式接触我们的受众，并且帮助他们产生好奇心并尝试一下，如果它本质上适合他们的世界。
And I always do this version of an investigation, to some degree.
在某种程度上，我总是做这个版本的调查。
I look at your homepage, I look at your products, what are you doing...
我看你的主页，我看你的产品，你在做什么……
And things just didn't pair up, especially when you mentioned with AI, "Yeah, it's time-series, but it's also just Postgres." And it was hard for me, because I would tell Isabelle, "Hey--" I would write her, "You've gotta change that headline on your homepage.
事情就是没有配对，特别是当你提到人工智能时，“是的，它是时间序列，但它也只是 Postgres。”这对我来说很难，因为我会告诉伊莎贝尔，“嘿——”我会写信给她，“你必须改变主页上的标题。
It just doesn't work.
它就是行不通。
Something's not fitting here."
这里有些不合适。”
\[40:00\] And so when I saw the name change reflecting on your mention of "It seemed natural", essentially...
\[40:00\] 因此，当我看到名称更改反映了你提到的“这似乎很自然”时，本质上......
When I saw the new name, the first thing I did was email Isabelle and I was like "Listen, that's an awesome name.
当我看到新名字时，我做的第一件事就是给伊莎贝尔发电子邮件，我说：“听着，这是一个很棒的名字。
We've gotta talk.
我们得谈谈。
When can you make time?" kind of thing.
你什么时候能抽出时间？”之类的。
Because it had been a few months since I'd talked to her, and that's what happens when you do a rebrand and change your name; you rethink your model, you rethink your brand, and you come back out with a new plan.
因为自从我和她交谈以来已经有几个月了，这就是当你进行品牌重塑和更改你的名字时会发生的情况；你重新考虑你的模型，你重新考虑你的品牌，然后你会提出一个新的计划。
And that's what I saw.
这就是我所看到的。
And so the moment - just to kind of reiterate, the moment I saw this new brand, Tiger Data, I was like "Mm-hm, that makes total sense.
所以，重申一下，当我看到这个新品牌 Tiger Data 的那一刻，我就想：“嗯，这完全有道理。
The Tiger's there, the logo's awesome...
老虎就在那里，标志太棒了……
It makes sense."
这是有道理的。”
**Ajay Kulkarni:** I'm glad you felt that way, because I feel like people who knew the company mostly felt that way, which was like -- like, we didn't even change our logo.
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 我很高兴你有这样的感觉，因为我觉得了解公司的人大多都有这样的感觉，就像——就像，我们甚至没有改变我们的标志。
Our logo stayed the same.
我们的标志保持不变。
We just changed the name.
我们只是改了名字。
And people were like "Yeah, no, they get it.
人们就像“是的，不，他们明白了。
And by the way, tigers are cool!"
顺便说一句，老虎很酷！”
**Adam Stacoviak:** What I liked too, when you did this, was the logo animated from Timescale to Tiger Data.
**Adam Stacoviak：** 当你这样做时，我也喜欢的是从 Timescale 到 Tiger Data 的动画徽标。
Logo stayed the same, the mark that you have...
徽标保持不变，您所拥有的标记...
I thought that was a nice little subtle touch.
我认为这是一个很好的微妙的接触。
**Adam Stacoviak:** I also -- I'm not a...
**Adam Stacoviak：** 我也——我不是……
I think a lot of people like dark mode, and I think your previous site was all dark mode...
我想很多人都喜欢深色模式，我想你之前的网站都是深色模式......
And you may even offer a dark mode version of your site...
您甚至可以提供网站的深色模式版本......
I don't know, because I see the stark white version of it...
我不知道，因为我看到的是纯白色的版本......
It doesn't bother me.
我不介意。
Like, the yellow and the white and the black...
比如黄色、白色、黑色……
Whoever was in charge of that process did a great job...
负责这个过程的人都做得很好......
Thinking through the core of who you are, and how do you come back \[unintelligible 00:41:44.11\] not being completely different, but being different at the same time.
思考你是谁的核心，以及你如何回来\[难以理解的00:41:44.11\]不是完全不同，而是同时不同。
**Ajay Kulkarni:** Yeah.
**阿贾伊·库尔卡尼：** 是的。
I mean, it was a team effort, but the marketing team drove that.
我的意思是，这是团队的努力，但营销团队推动了这一点。
Kudos to them...
向他们致敬...
But I think it definitely gives you some thought on "Hey, does the name really matter?" And I think where I'm landing right now is that the name may not help you, but it can hurt you.
但我认为它肯定会让你思考“嘿，名字真的很重要吗？”我认为我现在要说的是，这个名字可能对你没有帮助，但它可能会伤害你。
I mean, there are two schools of thought.
我的意思是，有两种思想流派。
One school of thought is you name yourself books.com, the other school of thought is you name yourself Amazon, which could sell books.
一种思想流派是你将自己命名为 books.com，另一种思想流派是你将自己命名为 Amazon，它可以销售书籍。
And I liked the clarity of Timescale, because it was like, "Hey, time-series." But in hindsight, it was limiting.
我喜欢时间刻度的清晰度，因为它就像，“嘿，时间序列。”但事后看来，它是有限的。
While Tiger - dude, Tiger could be anything.
虽然老虎——伙计，老虎可以是任何东西。
**Adam Stacoviak:** So one of the things that you have now, I think, is this burgeoning idea of agents in our databases, right?
**Adam Stacoviak：** 所以我认为，你现在拥有的一件事就是我们数据库中代理的新兴想法，对吗？
**Adam Stacoviak:** And I'm at this point where -- there was this arc of acceptance, I would describe it, of "Hey, come on now...
**Adam Stacoviak：** 而我此时此刻——有一种接受的弧线，我会描述它，“嘿，现在来吧......
AI hype, I'm over it.
人工智能炒作，我已经结束了。
Too much", this and that.
太多了”，这个那个。
And I think the game changed when Claude Code changed the game.
我认为当克劳德·科德改变游戏时，游戏也随之改变。
That's where I really think it happened.
我确实认为这就是发生的地方。
I had been a user of ChatGPT, like many people...
和很多人一样，我曾经是 ChatGPT 的用户......
\[unintelligible 00:43:07.17\] the API to do something in ChatGPT and copy it out somewhere else, whether it was written material, whether it was an idea, whether it was a framework in terms of a thought framework...
\[无法理解的00:43:07.17\] API在ChatGPT中做某事并将其复制到其他地方，无论它是书面材料，无论它是一个想法，它是否是一个思想框架方面的框架......
Or maybe even a Bash script, because AI is pretty good at Bash scripting.
或者甚至可能是 Bash 脚本，因为 AI 非常擅长 Bash 脚本编写。
And then you kind of get to this other side where you're like "You know what?
然后你就会到达另一边，你会说“你知道吗？
Wow, agentic is really revolutionary." And I think Claude Code really changed that game from the new browser or the new destination point for developers...
哇，agentic 真的是革命性的。”我认为 Claude Code 确实从新的浏览器或开发人员的新目标点改变了这款游戏......
It is still in the IDE, and that's still taking place today.
它仍然在 IDE 中，而且至今仍在发生。
But I think you're seeing this shift to the CLI that is just truly revolutionary, that now the terminal - it was never not cool, but it's cool again.
但我认为您正在看到这种向 CLI 的转变，这是真正革命性的，现在是终端 - 它从来都不是很酷，但它又很酷。
A lot of folks are hanging out there, Claude Code kind of put that on the map in a way...
很多人都在那里闲逛，克劳德·科德以某种方式将其放在地图上......
And then a lot of folks decided to follow that direction.
然后很多人决定遵循这个方向。
And I imagine that's kind of what you thought too, is like - you're probably doing a lot of agentic coding, you're probably playing with side projects, you're getting curious again...
我想这也是你的想法，就像 - 你可能正在做很多代理编码，你可能正在玩副项目，你又开始好奇了......
And you're like "Well, the next best thing is to -- how can I just talk to my database?
你会说“好吧，下一个最好的事情是——我怎样才能与我的数据库对话？
How can I just put an agent in my Postgres?" Talk about that.
我怎样才能在我的 Postgres 中放置一个代理？” 谈谈这个。
**Ajay Kulkarni:** \[44:24\] Yeah.
**阿贾伊·库尔卡尼：** \[44:24\] 是的。
I think -- yes, I had a very similar experience with Claude Code.
我想——是的，我和克劳德·科德有过非常相似的经历。
I remember one of my friends talking about agentic workloads in 2023, and I remember thinking "What are you talking about?
我记得我的一位朋友谈论 2023 年的代理工作负载，我记得当时在想“你在说什么？
Agentic?
代理？
What does that mean?" And now I use the word "agentic" at least five times a day.
这意味着什么？”现在我每天至少使用“代理”这个词五次。
And Claude Code was that moment.
克劳德·科德就是那个时刻。
Claude Code -- I mean, ChatGPT was cool, but it was like a party trick.
Claude Code——我的意思是，ChatGPT 很酷，但它就像一个聚会把戏。
It was kind of cool, it could edit for me...
这有点酷，它可以为我编辑......
**Adam Stacoviak:** For developers it was a party trick.
**Adam Stacoviak：** 对于开发人员来说，这是一个聚会把戏。
I mean, for everyone else it's pretty dang powerful.
我的意思是，对于其他人来说，它非常强大。
But as a developer -- and ChatGPT is not the right interface.
但作为一名开发人员，ChatGPT 并不是正确的界面。
Chat yes, but not \[unintelligible 00:44:59.24\]
可以聊天，但不能\[无法理解 00:44:59.24\]
**Ajay Kulkarni:** I remember building -- because I was trying to talk to a friend.
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 我记得建筑——因为我想和朋友说话。
I was showing it to a friend, and he was like "Oh, can we build an app that tracks pushups?" And I'm like "I don't know.
我把它展示给一个朋友，他说“哦，我们可以开发一个跟踪俯卧撑的应用程序吗？”我就像“我不知道。
Let's try it." And I think 45 minutes later -- Claude had gone out and found the right computer vision library, and other stuff...
让我们试试吧。”我想 45 分钟后——克劳德已经出去找到了合适的计算机视觉库，以及其他东西......
And I had like a mobile web app that would use computer vision to detect if you're doing a pushup or not, and it didn't get it always right, but it got it right maybe 80% of the time...
我有一个移动网络应用程序，它会使用计算机视觉来检测你是否在做俯卧撑，它并不总是正确的，但它可能在 80% 的时间里都是正确的......
Which was pretty good for 45 minutes of work.
这对于 45 分钟的工作来说已经相当不错了。
And I remember thinking "Dude, I can build anything.
我记得我当时想：“伙计，我可以建造任何东西。
Like, I can build anything now." And I'm with you, I think Claude Code felt like "Wow, this is actually an agent doing work for me, writing code, making decisions...
就像，我现在可以构建任何东西。”我和你在一起，我认为 Claude Code 感觉就像“哇，这实际上是一个代理在为我工作，编写代码，做出决定......
I can steer it, making me more productive..."
我可以驾驭它，让我更有效率……”
I remember going to a social event that night and I couldn't even talk to people, because I was so excited.
我记得那天晚上去参加一个社交活动，我什至无法与人交谈，因为我太兴奋了。
Like, I went home early.
比如，我很早就回家了。
I was like "I need to go back to Claude Code."
我当时想“我需要回到克劳德·科德”。
**Ajay Kulkarni:** I swear to God.
**阿贾伊·库尔卡尼：** 我向上帝发誓。
Well, I'm trying to talk to people about Claude Code, and they're like "Are you okay?" I'm like "No, this thing is amazing.
嗯，我试图和人们谈论克劳德·科德，他们就像“你还好吗？”我说：“不，这件事太棒了。
You have to try it."
你必须尝试一下。”
**Adam Stacoviak:** What kind of party was it?
**Adam Stacoviak：** 这是一个什么样的聚会？
Was it nerds, or was it normal people?
是书呆子，还是普通人？
**Ajay Kulkarni:** But even the nerds were like -- I mean, Claude Code had just come out.
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 但即使是书呆子也喜欢——我的意思是，克劳德代码刚刚问世。
There was still "Yeah, I use Claude..." I'm like "No, not Claude.
仍然有“是的，我使用克劳德......”我就像“不，不是克劳德。
Claude Code." You know when I told you about that experience in 1996, using the internet for the first time?
克劳德·科德。”你知道我 1996 年第一次使用互联网的经历吗？
That's what this felt like.
这就是这种感觉。
Number one, it felt like "I don't know what this is, but I want to be a part of this.
第一，感觉就像“我不知道这是什么，但我想成为其中的一部分。
This is fun." But also it brought me -- and I know a lot of my peers feel this way...
这很有趣。”但它也给我带来了——我知道我的很多同龄人都有这种感觉……
It kind of brought out this childish sense of wonder, that I think years of being of an entrepreneur had kind of beaten down...
它有点带出了这种幼稚的惊奇感，我认为多年的企业家生涯已经被击垮了……
And it kind of brought it back to the surface, to be like "This is fun." This is fun the way technology should be fun, where you're just like "I just want to tinker with this.
这有点把它带回到表面，就像“这很有趣”。这很有趣，就像技术应该很有趣一样，你就像“我只是想修补这个。
I don't know what I can build, I just want to build things, explore this new world together."
我不知道我能建造什么，我只是想建造一些东西，一起探索这个新世界。”
\[47:28\] And yeah, so I'm really excited...
[47:28] 是的，所以我真的很兴奋......
I mean, I think as a company we're excited, because we see this trend, that like 80% of Claude Code is written by Claude...
我的意思是，我认为作为一家公司，我们很兴奋，因为我们看到了这种趋势，80% 的 Claude 代码都是由 Claude 编写的......
The majority of new software over the next 12 months will be written by AI...
未来 12 个月的大部分新软件将由 AI 编写……
We already have customers who tell us that 70% of their code is written by agents.
我们已经有客户告诉我们，他们 70% 的代码是由代理编写的。
And you just look at this and you say, "Okay, if that's happening, then what else is happening?" Well, that means the surface area of software development needs to evolve for agents.
你只要看着这个，然后说：“好吧，如果发生了这种情况，那么还会发生什么？”嗯，这意味着软件开发的领域需要为代理而发展。
And the surface area of databases.
以及数据库的表面积。
So now databases are serving a new user.
现在数据库正在为新用户服务。
They're not serving a human, they're serving a human using an agent.
他们不是在为人类服务，而是通过代理为人类服务。
So then you ask yourself, "Okay, then how does a database need to evolve for that?" Well, number one, it's less of a GUI...
然后你问自己：“好吧，那么数据库需要如何发展才能实现这一点？”嗯，第一，它不像 GUI 那样......
So you remember databases went from on-prem to SaaS, like cloud...
所以你还记得数据库从本地部署到 SaaS，就像云一样......
But now you're going from SaaS to, I don't know, MCP, CLI...
但现在你要从 SaaS 转向，我不知道，MCP、CLI……
It's like, the interface is totally different.
就像，界面完全不同。
It's no longer clicking.
它不再点击了。
It's more like commands...
这更像是命令...
And there's some other things, too.
还有其他一些事情。
Like, you want databases to boot instantly, you want to be able to fork, and create sandboxes quickly, in a safe way, in a cost-effective way...
就像，您希望数据库立即启动，您希望能够以安全的方式、经济高效的方式快速分叉和创建沙箱......
You probably want native search, native memory...
您可能需要本机搜索、本机内存......
Yeah, so I don't know, I'm just excited as like the little kid in me who just loves building things, excited...
是的，所以我不知道，我只是很兴奋，就像我内心那个喜欢建造东西的小孩一样，很兴奋......
**Ajay Kulkarni:** ...but also as a company, it's like "Yeah, this feels like a problem someone should solve", and the answer is probably Postgres, and we might as well solve it.
**Ajay Kulkarni：** ...但作为一家公司，这就像“是的，这感觉像是一个应该有人解决的问题”，答案可能是 Postgres，我们不妨解决它。
**Adam Stacoviak:** This lyric lands for me in this moment...
**亚当·斯塔科维亚克：** 这句歌词此时此刻映入我的脑海......
It's from -- I had to look it up.
它来自——我必须查一下。
I don't know this by memory, but it's from Marvin Gaye and Tammy Terrell.
我不记得这个，但这是马文·盖伊和塔米·特雷尔写的。
"Ain't nothing like the real thing, baby." So when you're in ChatGPT and you're just ideating the future of what your software thing could be, if that's where you're kind of hanging out at, versus that experience of in Claude Code doing the same thing, but it's making the thing.
“一点都不像真的，宝贝。”所以，当你在 ChatGPT 中，你只是在构想你的软件的未来，如果那是你闲逛的地方，而不是在 Claude Code 中做同样的事情，但它正在创造东西。
It's making the real thing, and you're seeing the real thing change.
它正在创造真实的东西，你会看到真实的东西发生变化。
And maybe you're doing Git commits, maybe you're doing spec-driven or document-driven development and you're thinking a ton, and you're writing it down, or it's writing it for you, or it's writing the markdown...
也许你正在做 Git 提交，也许你正在做规范驱动或文档驱动的开发，你想了很多，然后你把它写下来，或者它为你写，或者它正在写 markdown...
But the ideas and the vision and the direction is coming from your lived experience, and your wisdom, and places you've been, and valleys and cul-de-sacs you've been down, and you're like "Not going there..." And it may try to take you there, but you're like "No, no, no, hang on.
但想法、愿景和方向来自你的生活经历、你的智慧、你去过的地方、你去过的山谷和死胡同，你会说“不要去那里……”它可能会试图带你去那里，但你会说“不，不，不，坚持住。
Let's curve that back.
让我们把它弯曲回来。
Let's go here." But you're seeing the real thing be made.
我们去这里吧。”但你会看到真正的东西被制作出来。
That to me was, I think, the moment where I was like "That's pretty wild.
我想，对我来说，那一刻我就像“这太疯狂了。
The real thing."
真实的事情。”
**Ajay Kulkarni:** And it can be like "Okay, cool, commit those changes and push them upstream." And so you're like "Oh, it's actually fitting --" Because when I use Replit or Loveable - they're fine, but I was like "Okay, cool, but I don't build this way.
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 它可以是“好吧，酷，提交这些更改并将它们推向上游。”所以你会说“哦，这实际上很合适——”因为当我使用 Replit 或 Loveable 时——它们都很好，但我会说“好吧，很酷，但我不会这样构建。
Maybe other people do, I don't." But now I'm like "Yeah, I'd build this way.
也许其他人会这样做，但我不会。”但现在我想“是的，我会这样构建。
Yeah, commit the changes, push it upstream.
是的，提交更改，将其推向上游。
Yeah, cool.
是的，很酷。
Great.
太棒了。
Show me the diff.
显示差异。
Alright."
好吧。”
**Adam Stacoviak:** The speed you can move at, I think, is kind of wild.
**Adam Stacoviak：** 我认为，你的移动速度有点疯狂。
I laugh about this, and I don't know how often you laugh about this, but I love when it makes a plan and it's like "Well, this is week one, this is week two, and this is week three." Meanwhile, four hours later, the thing's done.
我对此笑了，我不知道你笑了多少次，但我喜欢它制定计划，就像“嗯，这是第一周，这是第二周，这是第三周。”与此同时，四个小时后，事情就完成了。
Or an hour later, whatever the number is.
或者一个小时后，无论数字是多少。
**Adam Stacoviak:** And I like how it manifests its time ranges, but I'm like, "It's kind of funny." It's still making a plan, or it's making a plan with you, and the range of its timeframe is -- maybe it's actually accurate to how it should be if it was done with a team of humans, versus a team of one, with an agent and an idea.
**Adam Stacoviak：** 我喜欢它表现时间范围的方式，但我想，“这有点有趣。”它仍在制定计划，或者正在与你一起制定计划，其时间框架的范围是——如果是由人类团队完成，而不是由一个人组成的团队，有一个代理人和一个想法，那么它实际上可能是准确的。
And I think that's kind of wild, it's just the --
我认为这有点疯狂，只是——
**Ajay Kulkarni:** Or maybe it's just under-promising and over-delivering, because that's what humans like...
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 或者也许只是承诺不足而交付过多，因为这就是人类喜欢的......
\[laughs\]
\[笑\]
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, maybe that's it; maybe it's psychology.
** Adam Stacoviak：** 是的，也许就是这样；也许这就是心理学。
Something's going on there...
那里发生了一些事情...
Even your mention of -- you know, we had a conversation, you and I, a few weeks back, and you mentioned the same thing, you mentioned this childlike play...
甚至你提到——你知道，几周前我们有过一次谈话，你和我，你也提到了同样的事情，你提到了这个孩子般的游戏......
And that's kind of the definition of flow.
这就是流量的定义。
Like, flow state is that -- when you're in that state of flow, that state of play, a lot can happen there.
就像，心流状态是这样的——当你处于那种心流状态、那种比赛状态时，那里可能会发生很多事情。
You stay more engaged...
你会更加投入...
It's kind of addicting, in a way.
从某种程度上来说，这有点让人上瘾。
**Ajay Kulkarni:** I'm a big fan of that idea, the concept of play.
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 我非常喜欢这个想法，即游戏的概念。
When something feels like play, that's when you know you're in it.
当某件事感觉像是在玩耍时，你就知道自己身处其中。
You're in the flow, you are doing the thing you should be doing.
你在潮流中，你正在做你应该做的事情。
**Ajay Kulkarni:** And if I ever write a book, I think the title will probably be Play...
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 如果我写一本书，我想书名可能会是 Play...
**Ajay Kulkarni:** \[51:57\] I think that should be the driver.
**Ajay Kulkarni：** \[51:57\] 我认为那应该是司机。
It's like, look for things that feel like play.
就像，寻找那些感觉像玩耍的东西。
Because those are things that really kind of fit who you are.
因为这些东西确实适合你。
And if you find something that feels like play and it also lets you kind of support yourself or your family - yeah, dude, that's the jackpot.
如果你找到了一些像玩耍一样的东西，而且它还可以让你养活自己或你的家人——是的，伙计，这就是大奖。
But the AI story kind of reminded me of something...
但人工智能的故事让我想起了一些事情......
When the personal computer came out in the late '70s, people struggled how to describe it.
当个人电脑在 70 年代末问世时，人们一直在努力如何描述它。
Probably similar to how we struggle describing ChatGPT and Claude today.
可能类似于我们今天如何努力描述 ChatGPT 和 Claude。
And Steve Jobs, who was probably one of the best tech marketers of all time - either he came up with this or Apple came up with this, but they would talk about how a computer is like a bicycle for your mind.
还有史蒂夫·乔布斯，他可能是有史以来最好的科技营销人员之一——要么是他想出了这个，要么是苹果想出了这个，但他们会谈论计算机对于你的大脑来说就像一辆自行车。
Which is kind of a weird -- today that feels like a weird analogy...
这有点奇怪——今天感觉像是一个奇怪的类比……
But I get it.
但我明白了。
Because back then you're like "Hey, this thing--" This is like pre-spreadsheet, right?
因为那时你会说“嘿，这个东西——”这就像预电子表格，对吧？
"Hey, this thing -- we don't know what the key use cases are, but kind of like how a bicycle lets you get from point A to point B faster, this is just making you better." And that's how I feel about Claude Code.
“嘿，这个东西 - 我们不知道关键用例是什么，但有点像自行车如何让你更快地从 A 点到达 B 点，这只会让你变得更好。”这就是我对克劳德·科德的看法。
And there's all this discussion about "Hey, our agents are gonna replace us..." I mean, maybe some of the things we do, but for most of the things I think it'll be like a bicycle.
所有这些讨论都是关于“嘿，我们的经纪人将取代我们......”我的意思是，也许我们做了一些事情，但对于大多数事情，我认为它会像自行车一样。
It'll just help us get from point A to point B faster.
它只会帮助我们更快地从 A 点到达 B 点。
Yeah, I don't know, I think that's part of the joy, is being like "Hey, this thing that used to take me a week, or I couldn't even do before, now and get done in an afternoon, totally throw it away and start again the next day."
是的，我不知道，我认为这就是快乐的一部分，就像“嘿，这件事过去花了我一周的时间，或者以前我什至做不到，现在一个下午就能完成，完全扔掉它，第二天重新开始。”
**Adam Stacoviak:** Try to juxtapose the timeframe of IoT company, using Postgres, needing time-series...
**Adam Stacoviak：** 尝试并置物联网公司的时间框架，使用 Postgres，需要时间序列......
Engineer, developer, employee, whatever, comes to you and says "I could do this in Postgres.
工程师、开发人员、员工，无论什么，都会来找你并说“我可以在 Postgres 中做到这一点。
I could do it in a month." You're like "Yeah, you're ambitious.
我可以在一个月内完成。”你会说：“是的，你很有雄心。
You can do it in three months." 12 months later, that whole story...
三个月内你就可以做到。” 12个月后，整个故事......
Juxtapose that time, to idea, to CLI, and - we haven't even talked about the CLI yet, but getting to this point of agentic Postgres, and building what it is.
将那个时间与想法、CLI 并置，并且 - 我们甚至还没有讨论 CLI，但谈到代理 Postgres 的这一点，并构建它是什么。
How fast did you go from idea to using the thing?
你从想法到使用这个东西的速度有多快？
**Ajay Kulkarni:** I don't even know, man...
**阿贾伊·库尔卡尼：** 我什至不知道，伙计......
I mean, I think this is the theme in the AI land, is "Just ship." You know?
我的意思是，我认为这是人工智能领域的主题，就是“Just Ship”。你知道？
**Ajay Kulkarni:** Just ship.
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 发货即可。
We're a database company, so we have a slightly higher bar than maybe a classic app...
我们是一家数据库公司，所以我们的标准可能比经典应用程序稍高一些......
But yeah, just ship.
但是，是的，只是运送。
Yeah, I mean, there's definitely a shift between -- it used to be hard to build, but now it's much easier to build, which probably means that more of the bottleneck then becomes a distribution and awareness...
是的，我的意思是，两者之间肯定存在转变——过去很难构建，但现在构建起来容易多了，这可能意味着更多的瓶颈变成了分发和意识......
Which is I think something similar to what the iPhone has --
我认为这与 iPhone 的功能类似——
**Adam Stacoviak:** It's always been the bottleneck though, distribution and awareness; it's just exacerbated now.
**Adam Stacoviak：** 不过，分发和意识一直是瓶颈；现在情况更加严重了。
**Ajay Kulkarni:** Yeah, but I remember once upon a time, pre-AWS...
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 是的，但我记得很久以前，AWS 之前......
I mean, you probably remember this too, which is like, to start a company you needed to -- you needed a server rack, you need maybe a couple of Sun Microsystems machines, Oracle ADI database...
我的意思是，您可能也记得这一点，这就像，要创办一家公司，您需要 - 您需要一个服务器机架，您可能需要几台 Sun Microsystems 机器、Oracle ADI 数据库......
And just to get started was such a high bar that a lot of people couldn't do it.
而且刚开始的门槛就很高，很多人都做不到。
I was actually gonna say, I think it's similar to what the smartphone did to photography...
我其实想说，我认为这类似于智能手机对摄影的影响......
Once upon a time, being a photographer was really hard; even if you look at before digital cameras, right?
曾几何时，当一名摄影师真的很辛苦；即使你在数码相机之前看，对吧？
And you'd only take so many shots, you'd have to develop it, it would take time...
而且你只能拍这么多张照片，你必须冲洗它，这需要时间......
It was hard to get right...
很难得到正确的...
You would have to actually apply physical filters and physical lenses to change the thing...
你必须实际应用物理滤镜和物理镜头来改变事物......
And with the smartphone, everyone became a photographer.
有了智能手机，每个人都成为了摄影师。
And what that meant was that in the past, having great photos would set you apart, but now it's like, anyone can create a great photo...
这意味着在过去，拥有精彩的照片会让你与众不同，但现在就像是，任何人都可以创作一张精彩的照片......
But how many followers do you have on Instagram?
但你在 Instagram 上有多少粉丝呢？
You know?
你知道？
So it kind of, again, shifted the burden from photography skill to distribution.
因此，这再次将负担从摄影技巧转移到了发行上。
And I feel like we're gonna go through something similar with software.
我觉得我们将在软件方面经历类似的事情。
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[56:08\] How much do you know about, I suppose, the details of the CLI and the MCP server that is in your products?
**Adam Stacoviak：** \[56:08\] 我想您对您产品中的 CLI 和 MCP 服务器的详细信息了解多少？
Because I felt it was pretty -- when I looked behind the scenes of the open source of that, you know, it's elegant, the way you've married a CLI and an MCP server in a single binary.
因为我觉得它很漂亮——当我查看开源的幕后时，你知道，它很优雅，就像你将 CLI 和 MCP 服务器结合在一个二进制文件中一样。
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's pretty wild.
**Adam Stacoviak：** 这太疯狂了。
I think the design is -- I had to borrow it, honestly.
我认为这个设计是——老实说，我不得不借用它。
**Adam Stacoviak:** I've got a couple of things I'm working on, that are...
**Adam Stacoviak：** 我正在做几件事，那就是......
One is a DNS resolver, and I wanna like talk to the resolver...
一个是 DNS 解析器，我想与该解析器交谈......
And so the obvious answer is to have an API.
所以显而易见的答案是拥有一个 API。
But then you also have to have a CLI that talks to the API.
但您还必须有一个与 API 对话的 CLI。
But then I'm like "Well, I'm actually using an agent, so I'm taking a playbook from Ajay, and Tiger Data, and agentic Postgres..." And, well, the same CLI can offer an MCP server running at the same time, and you can talk to it and get back JSON for the agent, or get back CLI response for the human.
但后来我想“好吧，我实际上正在使用代理，所以我从 Ajay、Tiger Data 和代理 Postgres 那里获取了剧本......”而且，同样的 CLI 可以提供同时运行的 MCP 服务器，您可以与它交谈并为代理取回 JSON，或者为人类取回 CLI 响应。
Like, the design there was so elegant.
就像，那里的设计是如此优雅。
I wanna know what you know about that design.
我想知道你对这个设计了解多少。
**Ajay Kulkarni:** I know the team that built it is really smart...
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 我知道构建它的团队非常聪明......
I think they looked at a couple of different options.
我认为他们考虑了几种不同的选择。
I think the way it works right now is that the CLI will run a local MCP server, which then speaks to a remote one that we have.
我认为它现在的工作方式是 CLI 将运行本地 MCP 服务器，然后该服务器与我们拥有的远程服务器进行通信。
And the remote one is where we index -- you know, our MCP will allow you to do things with Postgres and Tiger, but it also lets you search the Postgres documentation, download best practices...
远程是我们索引的地方 - 你知道，我们的 MCP 将允许你使用 Postgres 和 Tiger 做事情，但它也允许你搜索 Postgres 文档，下载最佳实践......
And so we put that on its own kind of remote MCP server.
因此，我们将其放在自己的远程 MCP 服务器上。
I think MCP in general - it's such an interesting area, and I feel like a lot of people hate on it because it seems so simplistic...
我认为 MCP 总的来说 - 这是一个非常有趣的领域，我觉得很多人讨厌它，因为它看起来太简单了......
But I think just the idea that -- you know, people talk about, in the physical world, the idea of a design affordance.
但我认为这个想法——你知道，人们在现实世界中谈论设计可供性的想法。
You know this concept?
你知道这个概念吗？
It's this idea that when you see something -- like, when you see this mug and you see this thing, you know you can hold this.
正是这个想法，当你看到某个东西时——比如，当你看到这个杯子，你看到这个东西，你知道你可以握住它。
**Ajay Kulkarni:** You know?
**阿贾伊·库尔卡尼：** 你知道吗？
It's kind of like a door handle.
它有点像门把手。
You're like "I know I can turn this." This is one of the reasons why Tesla door handles trip some people off, because they don't see the handle.
你就像“我知道我可以扭转这个局面”。这就是特斯拉门把手让一些人绊倒的原因之一，因为他们看不到把手。
**Adam Stacoviak:** They're like "What's going on here?" Yeah, \[unintelligible 00:58:29.22\]
**Adam Stacoviak：** 他们就像“这里发生了什么事？”是的，\[无法理解 00:58:29.22\]
**Ajay Kulkarni:** Actually, I think that's bad design.
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 实际上，我认为这是糟糕的设计。
But an affordance is when the tool teaches you how to use it, because it's designed the right way.
但可供性是指该工具教您如何使用它，因为它是以正确的方式设计的。
**Adam Stacoviak:** Like games, like Mario.
**Adam Stacoviak：** 喜欢游戏，比如马里奥。
The Super-Mario Brothers, the first game - that was why it was...
超级马里奥兄弟，第一款游戏 - 这就是为什么它是......
**Adam Stacoviak:** Level one was level one.
**Adam Stacoviak：** 第一级就是第一级。
It was teaching you how to play level two and three and four.
它教你如何玩第二级、第三级和第四级。
**Ajay Kulkarni:** So this is where -- MCP to me is not just an API, it's essentially a way to expose tools for agents.
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 所以这就是——MCP 对我来说不仅仅是一个 API，它本质上是一种向代理公开工具的方法。
To essentially think about like "Hey, we used to make these handles for human hands, but now we're gonna make them for agent hands." And that is a really growing art...
基本上可以这样想：“嘿，我们过去是为人手制造这些手柄，但现在我们要为特工的手制造它们。”这是一门真正不断发展的艺术......
Anthropic, who developed MCP, they're still learning best practices.
Anthropic 开发了 MCP，他们仍在学习最佳实践。
I think that's really interesting...
我觉得这真的很有趣...
It's to figure out what proper tool design looks like, how many tools is too many...
这是为了弄清楚正确的工具设计是什么样的，多少工具太多了......
I think right now tools are mainly a wrapper around APIs, but I think it'd be cool if they were actually doing the job, not just the API.
我认为现在工具主要是 API 的包装，但我认为如果它们真正完成这项工作，而不仅仅是 API，那就太酷了。
Yeah, so I think the team's done some good stuff.
是的，所以我认为团队做了一些好事。
There's some really other -- some good stuff that we're gonna release soon...
我们很快就会发布一些其他的好东西......
But I think MCP design -- I think this idea of designing for a new user, the agent, is I think a really fascinating area.
但我认为 MCP 设计——我认为为新用户（代理）设计的想法是一个非常令人着迷的领域。
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, we've heard the term dev tools, and now we have agent tools.
**Adam Stacoviak：** 嗯，我们听说过开发工具这个术语，现在我们有了代理工具。
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's how I think about things.
**Adam Stacoviak：** 这就是我的想法。
And I've done a couple toy CLIs just to play with them.
我已经做了几个玩具 CLI，只是为了玩玩它们。
One for Proxmox -- so I'm a home labber...
一个是 Proxmox 的——所以我是一名家庭实验室……
I don't know what kind of nerd you are, but I love to home lab.
我不知道你是哪种书呆子，但我喜欢家庭实验室。
And one of the epicenters of my home lab is some version of a Raspberry Pi somewhere, or an Intel NUC, or maybe a slightly bigger one, which is a NAS, which is usually TrueNAS...
我的家庭实验室的中心之一是某个版本的 Raspberry Pi，或者是 Intel NUC，或者可能是稍大一点的 NAS，通常是 TrueNAS...
And the next best big thing in the network, for me at least, is a Proxmox machine, which is dedicated, where I can do different things, whether it's a service, or tinker with something, or play with a new version of Linux, or just distro hop, or distro play, however you wanna describe it...
网络中的下一个最好的东西，至少对我来说，是一台 Proxmox 机器，它是专用的，我可以在其中做不同的事情，无论是服务，还是修补一些东西，或者玩新版本的 Linux，或者只是发行版跳跃，或者发行版游戏，无论你想描述它......
But as I've explored this world a bit, and I've understood what it's like -- I'd never really built many CLIs before.
但当我对这个世界进行了一些探索之后，我已经了解了它是什么样的——我以前从未真正构建过很多 CLI。
And I was like "Well, the next thing you wanna do there is really just...
我当时想：“好吧，你接下来想做的事情就是......
You wanna enable, now that we have agent decoding, and it's -- it's almost ubiquitous." So when you build a tool, or you build a new CLI, or you think about a new way to create an API with a CLI that lets you talk to a service, you can assume, or presume pretty good, with pretty decent accuracy, that the person may be using an agent; likely using an agent, or at least has one nearby, and is working towards being okay with that.
既然我们有了代理解码，你就想启用它，而且它几乎无处不在。”因此，当你构建一个工具，或者你构建一个新的 CLI，或者你考虑一种新方法来创建一个带有 CLI 的 API 来让你与服务对话时，你可以假设，或者以相当不错的准确性假设，这个人可能正在使用代理；可能会使用代理人，或者至少在附近有一个代理人，并且正在努力适应这一点。
Some people are still not okay with that.
有些人对此仍然不满意。
So I was like, it only makes sense now that when you design these tools, you can't just design the old way, which was "Well, I'm designing this, obviously, to solve a human problem, so it's gonna be a human using it..." Now we have humans that are still there, they're still the human in the loop or on the loop, depending upon the framework, but that human is leveraging one or many agents, or sub-agents, to automate and to do different things in their tasks, whether it's designing the plan, whether it's writing all the code, and they're reading the code...
所以我想，现在才有意义，当你设计这些工具时，你不能只是设计旧的方式，即“嗯，我设计这个，显然是为了解决人类问题，所以它将由人类使用它......”现在我们仍然有人类，他们仍然是循环中的人类或循环中的人类，具体取决于框架，但是人类正在利用一个或多个代理或子代理来自动化并在他们的任务中做不同的事情，无论是设计计划，无论是编写所有代码，还是阅读代码……
They're still doing the code review; maybe they're doing 20% of the coding, because the agent does 80% of it, or 90% of it, or whatever the number is...
他们仍在进行代码审查；也许他们正在完成 20% 的编码，因为代理完成了 80% 的编码，或者 90% 的编码，或者无论数字是多少......
Likely, this person has an agent.
这个人很可能有代理人。
And so we now have to look at the way we build tooling in a way that's like "Okay, I used to do it this way, human-only, but now the human has a friend, an agent...
因此，我们现在必须审视我们构建工具的方式，就像“好吧，我以前是这样做的，仅限人类，但现在人类有一个朋友，一个代理......
I've gotta design for both of them", because that human is expecting their agent to have agency on their behalf, as they command it, to do the task.
我必须为他们两个进行设计”，因为那个人希望他们的代理人能够代表他们有代理权，按照他们的命令来完成任务。
**Adam Stacoviak:** And the agent speaks a different language, reads a different way, and it interacts with a command line or an API in a different way...
**Adam Stacoviak：** 代理讲不同的语言，以不同的方式阅读，并以不同的方式与命令行或 API 交互......
And that's where MCP, or even like Claude plugins come into play.
这就是 MCP 甚至 Claude 插件发挥作用的地方。
How do you feel about that world?
你对那个世界有什么感觉？
How do you feel about agents in our Postgres?
您对我们 Postgres 中的代理有何看法？
...and now we can actually talk to our database.
...现在我们实际上可以与我们的数据库进行对话。
**Ajay Kulkarni:** I mean, agents will be in everything, because I think it is someone helping you use the thing that you're using.
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 我的意思是，代理将参与一切，因为我认为有人帮助你使用你正在使用的东西。
I mean, you may not have an agent like inside the database itself, but you probably have an agent inside the system that's running the database.
我的意思是，您可能没有像数据库本身那样的代理，但您可能在运行数据库的系统内部有一个代理。
That's one thing we're exploring right now on Tiger Cloud, is having agents that help you.
这是我们现在在 Tiger Cloud 上探索的一件事，就是拥有可以帮助您的代理。
No, but it's totally right.
不，但这是完全正确的。
Again, it's not replacing the human.
再次强调，它并没有取代人类。
It is the human doing the thing they need to do, but now they're doing it through an agent.
人类在做他们需要做的事情，但现在他们是通过代理来做的。
And so now you're saying, "Okay the job to be done is still the same, but the thing doing the job is different." And so it's gonna need different things than what the human needed.
所以现在你会说：“好吧，要完成的工作仍然是一样的，但是完成这项工作的东西不同了。”所以它需要的东西与人类需要的东西不同。
**Ajay Kulkarni:** Yeah.
**阿贾伊·库尔卡尼：** 是的。
I mean, I think some places we're looking at is like "What are some of the menial tasks in a database that you don't really wanna do?" Okay, cool.
我的意思是，我认为我们正在关注的一些地方就像“数据库中的哪些琐碎任务是您实际上不想做的？”好吧，酷。
Maybe you start there.
也许你从那里开始。
But also, what are some tasks that you can't do?
但还有哪些任务是您无法完成的？
Maybe an agent can, because agents aren't limited by time and space.
也许代理人可以，因为代理人不受时间和空间的限制。
They can easily paralyze and run things and shut them down.
他们可以轻松地使事物瘫痪、运行并关闭它们。
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[01:06:06.14\] When I look at what you've done with agentic Postgres, which I think is -- I'm not sure if you're trying to brand that term...
**Adam Stacoviak：** \[01:06:06.14\] 当我看到你用代理 Postgres 所做的事情时，我认为 - 我不确定你是否想给这个术语打上烙印......
I think it is the first time I've heard it, and I wonder if that will just become the thing, and it's a product named like Xerox, or Kleenex...
我想这是我第一次听到它，我想知道它是否会成为这样的东西，它是一种名为 Xerox 或 Kleenex 的产品......
And I won't be using Tiger Data's agentic Postgres, I'll be using somebody else's, because there are more Postgres database providers out there...
我不会使用 Tiger Data 的代理 Postgres，我会使用其他人的，因为还有更多的 Postgres 数据库提供商......
Yeah, I wonder if that's the case.
是的，我想知道是不是这样。
But when I look under the covers of this thing, and what you've done, it's the first time I can look at something and say "Now I can actually talk to the database.
但是，当我深入了解这件事的背后以及您所做的事情时，这是我第一次可以看到某些东西并说“现在我实际上可以与数据库对话。
Now I can actually sort of command it to go do something and it goes and does it." It could even be a branch or a fork or whatever terminology you're using to say "Give me a safe area to play in." That's just never been a thing before.
现在我实际上可以命令它去做某事，它就会去做。”它甚至可以是树枝或叉子或任何你用来说“给我一个安全的玩耍区域”的术语。这以前从来没有发生过。
And now it kind of is.
现在确实是这样。
**Ajay Kulkarni:** Yeah, I mean, this CLI -- I mean, I think CLIs have been useful for...
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 是的，我的意思是，这个 CLI - 我的意思是，我认为 CLI 非常有用......
They've been a thing for a long time.
它们已经存在很长时间了。
What, 15 years, maybe more?
什么，15 年，或者更多？
**Ajay Kulkarni:** I mean, I don't know, if you look at Unix, maybe it's forever, you know?
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 我的意思是，我不知道，如果你看看 Unix，也许它是永远的，你知道吗？
**Adam Stacoviak:** They're on their way back.
**Adam Stacoviak：** 他们正在回来的路上。
I feel like CLIs are like the next frontier, in a way, really.
我觉得 CLI 在某种程度上确实就像下一个前沿。
I feel like the next year or so we're gonna have this massive swath...
我觉得明年左右我们将会有这么大的范围......
And maybe some will live and some will die, but that's gonna be the delivery mechanism.
也许有些人会活，有些人会死，但这将是交付机制。
So yeah, it's just --
所以是的，这只是——
**Ajay Kulkarni:** I think the key thing is the CLI is a clear program that agents can use.
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 我认为关键是 CLI 是一个代理可以使用的清晰程序。
So okay, so when we built up Tiger CLI - it's written in Go; it's distributed as a single binary.
好吧，当我们构建 Tiger CLI 时，它是用 Go 编写的；它作为单个二进制文件分发。
It essentially provides a unified control plane for your database on Tiger Cloud.
它本质上为虎云上的数据库提供了一个统一的控制平面。
And so it covers auth, obviously creating, starting, stopping, forking databases, connecting databases...
所以它涵盖了身份验证，显然是创建、启动、停止、分叉数据库、连接数据库......
But what's really, I think, nice about it, like you pointed out, is that it has MCP baked in.
但我认为，正如您所指出的，它真正的好处在于它内置了 MCP。
So you can run essentially a local MCP server through the CLI, that then your Claude Code or whatever can talk to...
因此，您本质上可以通过 CLI 运行本地 MCP 服务器，然后您的 Claude Code 或其他任何内容都可以与之通信...
And now your agent has access to all these basic commands.
现在您的代理可以访问所有这些基本命令。
It has access to starting, stopping, forking databases, connecting the databases...
它可以启动、停止、分叉数据库、连接数据库......
It also proxies another MCP server that we host, where we have indexed the Postgres and Timescale and Tiger documentation, and now we provide semantic search and text search on there.
它还代理我们托管的另一个 MCP 服务器，我们在其中索引了 Postgres、Timescale 和 Tiger 文档，现在我们在那里提供语义搜索和文本搜索。
So again, it's not just a CLI MCP server, it's a CLI MCP server that actually makes your agent smarter.
再说一次，它不仅仅是一个 CLI MCP 服务器，它是一个实际上使您的代理变得更加智能的 CLI MCP 服务器。
I don't know, I would say -- I'm not sure if this is true, but it probably is...
我不知道，我会说——我不确定这是否属实，但很可能是……
It's probably the first AI-native CLI for Postgres.
它可能是 Postgres 的第一个 AI 原生 CLI。
It's not just -- I think other Postgres CLIs are just like API wrappers, but this is really thinking about bringing the CLI commands into the agent, but then also giving agents the Postgres context it needs, best practices, documentation, so that it's instantly like an expert developer.
这不仅仅是——我认为其他 Postgres CLI 就像 API 包装器，但这实际上是在考虑将 CLI 命令引入代理，然后为代理提供所需的 Postgres 上下文、最佳实践、文档，以便它立即像专家开发人员一样。
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah.
**亚当·斯塔科维亚克：** 是的。
I mean, I know a lot of developers hang out in the command line, but I feel like to some services the CLI was not so much an afterthought, it was sort of "You have to do it", but not a lot of people would use it as the kind of primary interface.
我的意思是，我知道很多开发人员都在使用命令行，但我觉得对于某些服务来说，CLI 并不是事后才想到的，它有点像“你必须这样做”，但没有多少人会使用它作为主要界面。
And now that we have agents in the command line, I feel like it's table stakes.
现在我们在命令行中有了代理，我觉得这是赌注。
If your service doesn't have a fleshed out, thought through, well-defined API, so that you can also have a thought out, well-defined CLI...
如果您的服务没有一个充实的、经过深思熟虑的、定义良好的 API，那么您也可以有一个经过深思熟虑的、定义良好的 CLI...
And then maybe MCP lives and maybe it dies because agents can just sort of map around...
然后也许 MCP 会生存，也可能会消亡，因为特工们可以绘制地图……
I know Claude has plugins and things like that so you can sort of use Markdown to teach it, of all things not TypeScript, not Go, not Rust, but Markdown.
我知道 Claude 有插件和类似的东西，所以你可以使用 Markdown 来教它，所有的东西不是 TypeScript，不是 Go，不是 Rust，而是 Markdown。
Like, words.
比如，言语。
\[01:10:06.22\] Maybe MCP - there's talk about "Is it a fad, is it not?" I'm still not sure, because how sure can you be when things change on the weekly, even on the daily...?
\[01:10:06.22\] 也许 MCP - 有人谈论“这是一种时尚，不是吗？”我仍然不确定，因为当事情每周甚至每天发生变化时，你能确定吗？
But just this idea that now the new frontier for a service is a cloud, is an API, and is a CLI at its best...
但现在服务的新前沿是云，是 API，而且是最好的 CLI……
And maybe MCP lives or dies, but for sure, you've got some sort of plugin system that you can teach with a slash command in the CLI that most people are using, if it's OpenCode, if it's Claude Code, if it's Auggie, if it's AMP...
也许 MCP 是生是死，但可以肯定的是，你已经有了某种插件系统，你可以在大多数人都在使用的 CLI 中使用斜杠命令进行教学，如果它是 OpenCode、如果它是 Claude Code、如果它是 Auggie、如果它是 AMP...
Like, you pick your agent...
比如，你选择你的经纪人......
**Adam Stacoviak:** ...or Codex, even.
**Adam Stacoviak：** ...或者 Codex，甚至。
They're always last on my list, for some reason...
出于某种原因，他们总是在我的名单上排在最后......
But you know, the moment you give them that slash command, now the agent has access to the CLI...
但您知道，当您向他们发出斜杠命令时，代理现在就可以访问 CLI...
If it's got great help docs, so --help on all your commands...
如果它有很好的帮助文档，那么 --help 所有命令......
Now the new frontier is like this really well fleshed out CLI...
现在，新的领域就像这样非常充实的 CLI……
I feel like that's where so much attention is going to be going, if not already there.
我觉得这将是很多关注的焦点，如果还没有的话。
**Ajay Kulkarni:** No, it's a great point.
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 不，这是一个很好的观点。
And I think -- and again, hey, is MCP gonna be the end all protocol?
我想——再说一次，嘿，MCP 会成为所有协议的终结吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
But there will be a protocol, and I think that's the point.
但会有一个协议，我认为这就是重点。
That's the point you're making, and it's the point I'm trying to make.
这就是你要表达的观点，也是我想要表达的观点。
And why do you need this protocol?
为什么需要这个协议？
Well, number one, you need a way for the agents to interact with your APIs.
嗯，第一，您需要一种让代理与您的 API 交互的方法。
But number two, you probably want to give them access without giving them the full keys to the kingdom.
但第二，你可能想给他们访问权限，但又不想给他们王国的完整钥匙。
You wanna give your agents just enough power, but maybe sandboxed in a certain way.
你想给你的代理足够的权力，但可能以某种方式沙箱化。
Maybe they can do some things, but not others.
也许他们可以做一些事情，但不能做其他事情。
And I think this is where MCP, your agentic APIs really play a role.
我认为这就是 MCP、代理 API 真正发挥作用的地方。
And then the CLI is another way to do that.
CLI 是实现这一目标的另一种方法。
The CLI is another way to give essentially a tool to the agent that is properly defined in what it can and can't do.
CLI 是本质上为代理提供工具的另一种方式，该工具正确定义了它可以做什么和不能做什么。
Yeah, I think it's really interesting.
是的，我认为这真的很有趣。
I think the team's done some really cool -- I think this docs thing...
我认为团队做了一些非常酷的事情——我认为这个文档的事情......
And I'm not sure if I'm beating a dead horse here, but I think what they did with the docs I thought was especially clever, that I haven't seen anyone else do.
我不确定我是否在这里打了个死马，但我认为他们对我认为特别聪明的文档所做的事情，我还没有看到其他人这样做。
It's like "Hey, we have an MCP server where we have indexed the Postgres documentation and the Tiger documentation, and we've indexed it for text search and semantic search, so that your agent can effectively get a PhD in Postgres." And we've done the tests.
就像“嘿，我们有一个 MCP 服务器，我们在其中对 Postgres 文档和 Tiger 文档建立了索引，并且我们对其进行了文本搜索和语义搜索索引，以便您的代理可以有效地获得 Postgres 博士学位。”我们已经完成了测试。
You can create schemas without our MCP, and then with our MCP, and then have Claude compare the results.
您可以在没有我们的 MCP 的情况下创建模式，然后使用我们的 MCP 创建模式，然后让 Claude 比较结果。
And with the MCP, it's just a much better schema.
对于 MCP，它只是一个更好的模式。
I think that's been really cool, and I think that is -- it's almost a variant of the skills that you see in Claude, but I think that's another element of agents that I think is underexplored, is the fact that with the right markdown, they can become experts in anything.
我认为这真的很酷，我认为这几乎是你在克劳德身上看到的技能的变体，但我认为这是我认为尚未充分开发的特工的另一个要素，即通过正确的降价，他们可以成为任何事情的专家。
**Adam Stacoviak:** Did you see the talk from Barry Zhang and - I think his name's Mahesh Murag.
**Adam Stacoviak：** 你看到 Barry 张的演讲了吗？ - 我想他的名字是 Mahesh Murag。
They're both from Anthropic...
他们俩都来自人类...
It's the first time I've seen -- well, I guess the first time I thought I would see anybody talk on stage for an hour about markdown.
这是我第一次看到——好吧，我想这是我第一次认为我会看到有人在舞台上谈论 Markdown 一个小时。
They introduced --
他们介绍——
**Ajay Kulkarni:** \[laughs\] I think I saw the tweet about it.
**Ajay Kulkarni：** \[笑\]我想我看到了关于它的推文。
It was like a packed room, or something...
就像一个挤满了人的房间，或者什么的......
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, an hour long talk about using markdown.
**Adam Stacoviak：** 是的，一个小时的关于使用 Markdown 的讨论。
You just wouldn't expect that.
你只是没想到会这样。
That's not the language I thought would be front and center.
这不是我认为会成为首要和中心的语言。
Now, I love reading markdown.
现在，我喜欢阅读 Markdown。
I personally prefer markdown.
我个人更喜欢markdown。
I've been an Obsidian user for years now, and so I'm all about flat files, nothing that's sort of obfuscating my prose from my source...
我多年来一直是黑曜石用户，所以我只关注平面文件，没有任何东西可以从我的来源中混淆我的散文......
And markdown is that.
降价就是这样。
But it's the first time I thought I'd ever see somebody on stage presenting a revolutionary new feature that is now used by so many folks now.
但这是我第一次认为我会在舞台上看到有人展示一项革命性的新功能，该功能现在已经被很多人使用。
I'm starting to use plugins...
我开始使用插件了...
And it's markdown.
而且是降价的。
**Ajay Kulkarni:** \[01:14:03.02\] It is wild.
**阿贾伊·库尔卡尼：** \[01:14:03.02\] 它很狂野。
In fact, I have a friend working on a markdown editor for vibe coding.
事实上，我有一个朋友正在开发用于氛围编码的 Markdown 编辑器。
Not for note taking, but for like vibe coding.
不是为了记笔记，而是为了类似氛围编码。
No, it's a new world, man...
不，这是一个新世界，伙计……
Maybe we'll find -- that's the weird thing with these agents, is that in some ways they are very similar to us.
也许我们会发现——这些特工的奇怪之处在于，在某些方面他们与我们非常相似。
You don't teach it using machine code, you teach it using text, in markdown.
你不使用机器代码来教授它，而是使用 Markdown 中的文本来教授它。
**Ajay Kulkarni:** Well, I also think -- with your discussion earlier, I had a thought about the terminal, about how more people are using the terminal, living in the terminal...
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 嗯，我也认为 - 通过您之前的讨论，我对终端有了一个想法，关于如何有更多的人使用终端，生活在终端中......
There's probably a business idea out there - I'm sure someone's working on it - of building the modern terminal.
可能有一个商业想法——我确信有人正在研究它——建造现代化的航站楼。
**Adam Stacoviak:** I think...
**亚当·斯塔科维亚克：** 我认为......
Well, my favorite - and I'll give them a nod, because they are my favorite - is Warp.
嗯，我最喜欢的——我会向他们点头，因为他们是我的最爱——是 Warp。
I think they've been...
我想他们已经...
Gosh, I recall talking to them almost five years ago, and it was "The future of the terminal", I want to say...
天哪，我记得大约五年前与他们交谈过，那是“终端的未来”，我想说......
"The terminal of the future", I believe, was the title we shipped on that.
我相信，“未来的终端”是我们对此的标题。
And Zach Lloyd is -- I think he's a solo founder even, of Warp.
扎克·劳埃德（Zach Lloyd）是——我认为他甚至是 Warp 的独立创始人。
And Warp is my daily driver.
Warp 是我的日常司机。
So that's what I use when I'm in a terminal, I'm using warp.
这就是我在终端时使用的，我正在使用扭曲。
Now, I know Mitchell Hashimoto and Ghostty is awesome.
现在，我知道米切尔·桥本和幽灵太棒了。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
I'm so thankful for what they're doing, and especially what Mitchell did with the foundation kind of piece to it, to kind of give Ghostty a home forever...
我非常感谢他们所做的事情，尤其是米切尔所做的基础工作，为幽灵提供了一个永远的家……
But something about Warp just gets me, and so I just like Warp.
但 Warp 的某些东西让我着迷，所以我就是喜欢 Warp。
So I think they may be ahead of the puck in terms of that.
所以我认为他们在这方面可能领先于冰球。
**Ajay Kulkarni:** Yeah.
**阿贾伊·库尔卡尼：** 是的。
Well, it sounds like Warp -- did Warp start before this whole AI thing?
嗯，这听起来像 Warp——Warp 是在整个人工智能出现之前就开始的吗？
**Adam Stacoviak:** Oh, yeah.
**亚当·斯塔科维亚克：** 哦，是的。
It's probably two years before, I want to say.
我想说，这可能是两年前的事了。
At least two to three years before GPT-3 made people think that emails will forever be written by machines.
至少在 GPT-3 出现之前两到三年，人们就认为电子邮件将永远由机器编写。
And we're like "Nah, it'll never happen." You know what I mean?
我们就像“不，这永远不会发生。”你知道我的意思？
And now, "Can you summarize this into an email form for me?
现在，“您能为我将其总结为电子邮件表格吗？
I will edit it, and I will remove what I don't like", or whatever...
我会编辑它，我会删除我不喜欢的内容”，或者其他什么......
It's not how I write all my emails, by any means, but a few that require attention, or care, or particulars...
无论如何，这不是我写所有电子邮件的方式，而是一些需要关注、关心或细节的电子邮件......
Why would I write all that out?
我为什么要把这些都写出来？
I can have a thought, and the thought process with the agent, and then it formulates all the thoughts I've just given it into a cohesive form, and I can move along to my podcast with Ajay...
我可以有一个想法，以及与代理的思考过程，然后它将我刚刚给出的所有想法形成一个有凝聚力的形式，然后我可以继续与 Ajay 一起观看我的播客......
Which is actually what I did.
这实际上是我所做的。
I sent an email just before our call, and my agent helped me write it.
我在打电话之前发了一封电子邮件，我的经纪人帮我写了一封电子邮件。
And I'm cool with that.
我对此很满意。
I read it, I know what the words were in it, because they were all part of a 20-minute back and forth about this or that...
我读了它，我知道里面的字是什么，因为它们都是关于这个或那个的 20 分钟来回的一部分......
And I'm like "Hey, can you package this entire sequence up into an email?" And it did.
我就想“嘿，你能把整个序列打包成一封电子邮件吗？”确实如此。
And I cut out most of it, and edited it to be Adam...
我剪掉了大部分内容，并将其编辑为亚当......
That's cool.
太酷了。
\[01:17:14.00\] You can even teach your agents to think like you think.
\[01:17:14.00\] 您甚至可以教您的代理像您一样思考。
Especially in Claude, with these plugins and stuff like that, and the way you can change the prompt behavior to make it more antagonistic to your ideas, and not be like a yes agent.
尤其是在克劳德那里，有了这些插件之类的东西，以及你可以改变提示行为的方式，让它与你的想法更加对立，而不是像一个唯唯诺诺的代理人。
"Yes, Ajay, that was the most brilliant idea ever.
“是的，阿杰，这是有史以来最绝妙的主意。
Let's do this." No, no, no. Push back.
我们就这样做吧。”不，不，不。推回来。
So you could do a lot of that with these things, and it's just...
所以你可以用这些东西做很多事情，只是......
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah.
**亚当·斯塔科维亚克：** 是的。
And now we have it for our database.
现在我们的数据库就有了它。
I think that's such a wild thing, man.
我觉得这真是太疯狂了，伙计。
But what's on the horizon for you?
但你即将面临什么？
I know that we can't uncover things that are maybe releasing soon, or...
我知道我们无法发现可能即将发布的东西，或者......
I'm not asking you to spill the beans, but what's over the horizon?
我不是要你泄露秘密，但接下来会发生什么？
A little bit that's coming up soon, that you can at least tease?
很快就会出现一些你至少可以嘲笑的东西？
What is that?
那是什么？
...for you, for Tiger Data, whatever.
...为了您，为了 Tiger Data，无论如何。
**Ajay Kulkarni:** Yeah.
**阿贾伊·库尔卡尼：** 是的。
Well, so we started off as Timescale, building a database that scaled Postgres for time-series workloads.
好吧，所以我们从 Timescale 开始，构建一个可扩展 Postgres 以适应时间序列工作负载的数据库。
And then it became a Postgres that scaled for workloads in general, especially analytical workloads.
然后它变成了一个可以针对一般工作负载（尤其是分析工作负载）进行扩展的 Postgres。
What we got into with agentic Postgres is now serving not just the scale use case, but the start use case.
我们对代理 Postgres 的研究现在不仅服务于规模用例，而且服务于起始用例。
It's like "Hey, when I am building a new application with my agent, give me a database that just works." And what you'll see coming forward is just us continuing to innovate on those two dimensions, start and scale.
就像“嘿，当我与我的代理构建新应用程序时，给我一个可以正常工作的数据库。”您将看到的只是我们在起点和规模这两个维度上继续创新。
On start we're making our MCP even better, and CLI even better, and I'm curious what you think when these changes come out.
首先，我们正在让我们的 MCP 变得更好，让 CLI 变得更好，我很好奇当这些变化出现时你会怎么想。
We've actually been toying on a side project that is like a separate MCP server that is a little bit more than the database...
实际上，我们一直在研究一个业余项目，它就像一个独立的 MCP 服务器，比数据库稍微多一点......
And this is actually being developed by -- remember that engineer who said it would take a month and it took him 12 months?
这实际上是由 - 还记得那位工程师说这需要一个月的时间而他花了 12 个月来开发吗？
\[laughs\] It's the same guy doing this one.
\[笑\]这是同一个人在做这个。
**Ajay Kulkarni:** But he's moving a lot faster.
**Ajay Kulkarni：** 但他的动作要快得多。
And we launched a new storage layer called Fluid Storage to enable kind of ephemeral forks...
我们推出了一个名为“流体存储”的新存储层，以实现某种临时分叉......
You'll see more stuff around that.
你会看到更多与之相关的东西。
Fast forking, safe forking, sandboxes...
快速分叉、安全分叉、沙箱……
More around search, and more at scale.
更多围绕搜索，更大规模。
Yeah, and I think -- again, the job we do is "Hey, when you're a developer and you're looking for a database, we give you the database that just works." And it's built on Postgres, so you know you can trust it...
是的，我想，我们所做的工作是“嘿，当您是一名开发人员并且您正在寻找数据库时，我们会为您提供可以正常工作的数据库。”它建立在 Postgres 之上，所以你知道你可以信任它......
But "just works" means something different at start than it does at scale.
但“管用”在开始时的含义与规模化时的含义有所不同。
At start it means "Hey, it just works with my agent, it makes things easy." At scale, it means it's also reliable, and cost-effective, and fast.
一开始它的意思是“嘿，它只与我的经纪人合作，这让事情变得简单。”就规模而言，这意味着它可靠、经济高效且快速。
Yeah, we're like 170 people, and we're pushing on all those directions.
是的，我们大约有 170 人，我们正在朝着所有这些方向努力。
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's a lot of people.
**Adam Stacoviak：** 那是很多人。
I didn't expect that number.
我没想到这个数字。
I should have asked you that sooner, but yeah, that's a lot of folks.
我应该早点问你这个问题，但是，是的，有很多人。
Wow, that's a lot of folks behind you.
哇，你身后有很多人。
Pretty wild.
相当狂野。
Well, Ajay, it's been a pleasure diving into where you've been, and why you've built what you've built, and how you've built what you've built.
嗯，阿贾伊，很高兴深入了解您曾经去过的地方、为什么您建造了您所建造的东西以及您如何建造了您所建造的东西。
It's been fun.
这很有趣。
Thank you.
谢谢。
**Ajay Kulkarni:** Thank you, Adam.
**阿贾伊·库尔卡尼：** 谢谢你，亚当。
Pleasure.
乐趣。
Thanks for having me.
谢谢你有我。
Good to see you.
很高兴见到你。