the-changelog-672
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, friends, we're back with a good friend of ours...
**Adam Stacoviak：** 好吧，朋友们，我们带着我们的好朋友回来了......
It's been, Sid, way too long.
席德，已经过去太久了。
**Adam Stacoviak:** Way too long.
**亚当·斯塔科维亚克：** 太长了。
The last time we talked to you, the last time I talked to you at least, was when you were leading GitLab to IPO.
上次我们和你谈话，至少是我最后一次和你谈话，是在你带领 GitLab 进行 IPO 的时候。
This is pre-IPO.
这是首次公开募股前的情况。
This is in 2022...
这是2022年的事了……
It was speculative.
这是推测性的。
That was obviously the North Star for you.
那显然是你的北极星。
You've accomplished that mission...
你已经完成了这个使命...
You've had a cancer journey, you've had an investor journey, you've had the American Dream journey...
你经历过癌症之旅，你经历过投资者之旅，你经历过美国梦之旅......
And kind of back again, in a way.
在某种程度上，又回来了。
So welcome back to the show.
欢迎回到节目。
It's been way too long, good to see you again.
好久不见了，很高兴再次见到你。
**Adam Stacoviak:** And when we look at your story from, some would say this shadow of GitHub from way back in the day, to now, how do you personally reflect on your journey?
**Adam Stacoviak：** 当我们看你的故事时，有些人会说 GitHub 的影子从很久以前到现在，你个人如何看待你的旅程？
...I would say in tech, but also as a CEO, as just a normal person, as an investor...
...我会说在科技领域，但同时也是作为首席执行官、作为普通人、作为投资者...
How do you reflect on this long journey of yours?
您如何看待这段漫长的旅程？
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Well, it's been amazing kind of living the American Dream.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 嗯，实现美国梦真是太棒了。
2015 I came to the US, we raised money for GitLab, and we set our sights on growing the company, becoming a public company, and then six years later we took it public...
2015 年我来到美国，我们为 GitLab 筹集了资金，我们的目标是发展公司，成为一家上市公司，然后六年后我们将其上市......
Which is amazing, and we were very fortunate to--
这太神奇了，我们非常幸运——
**Adam Stacoviak:** And you were very much a leader too, with the way you opened the company, your open docs, a lot of the ways you hired, the ways that you showcased culture...
**Adam Stacoviak：** 你也是一位非常出色的领导者，包括你创办公司的方式、你的开放文档、你的很多招聘方式、你展示文化的方式......
A lot of that was even - not so much not in public, but you were very much a star of that.
其中很多都是甚至的——不是在公共场合，但你在这方面非常明星。
And then you were also a company that IPO-ed.
然后你们也是一家IPO的公司。
That seems like maybe not the way it should be done, but it's obviously the way you did do it.
这看起来也许不是应该这样做的方式，但这显然是你这样做的方式。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Yeah, we tried to lead the company with a ton of transparency, and we believe that helped us be an all-remote company, but at the same time being super on the same page...
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 是的，我们试图以大量的透明度来领导公司，我们相信这有助于我们成为一家全远程公司，但同时又超级在同一页面上......
And it's paid its dividends, both in coordinating us, hiring great people, but also getting customers excited about the company itself and how we \[unintelligible 00:05:45.20\]
它带来了红利，既可以协调我们，雇用优秀的人才，也可以让客户对公司本身以及我们如何“[难以理解的00:05:45.20\]”感到兴奋
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Yeah, for sure.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 是的，当然。
I stepped down as exec chair last year -- or stepped down as CEO, and now became an exec chair, which means that I'm still an employee of the company.
我去年辞去了执行主席的职务——或者辞去首席执行官的职务，现在成为执行主席，这意味着我仍然是公司的员工。
So I still have two engineers reporting to me, and we're taking on projects that I'm super-excited about.
因此，我仍然有两名工程师向我汇报，我们正在开展令我非常兴奋的项目。
Right now we're working on adding observability into GitLab.
现在我们正在努力将可观察性添加到 GitLab 中。
So really, really exciting to work on that.
从事这方面的工作真的非常非常令人兴奋。
**Jerod Santo:** So when you left GitLab as CEO - you were CEO, correct?
**Jerod Santo：** 所以当你离开 GitLab 担任首席执行官时 - 你是首席执行官，对吗？
That's what you stepped down from, that position?
这就是你从那个位置上退下来的？
**Jerod Santo:** ...it wasn't necessarily because you were done, or because you've done your thing and you're ready to get a mojito and go to the island...
**杰罗德·桑托：** ...这不一定是因为你已经完成了，或者因为你已经完成了你的事情并且你准备好喝一杯莫吉托去岛上了......
You actually had a health problem, a major health problem...
你实际上有一个健康问题，一个严重的健康问题......
I mean, a health crisis in many ways, around the end of 2022.
我的意思是，到 2022 年底左右，在很多方面都会出现健康危机。
And you've been on quite a separate journey, which is amazing to me, some of the details that you've gone through in order to be here today.
你们经历了一段完全不同的旅程，这对我来说是惊人的，你们今天经历了一些细节。
We're very happy that you are here today.
我们很高兴您今天来到这里。
Can you unpack a little bit of what you've been through in the last three years, four years with regards to your health, and the journey you've been on to fight cancer?
您能透露一下过去三年、四年来您在健康方面所经历的事情，以及您抗击癌症的历程吗？
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Yeah, for sure.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 是的，当然。
So end of 22, one year after the IPO, I discovered I had bone cancer, a six-centimeter tumor grown from my spine...
因此，22 年底，即 IPO 一年后，我发现自己患有骨癌，一种从脊柱长出的六厘米肿瘤......
And we had to do surgery really quickly.
我们必须非常快地进行手术。
I was in a lot of pain.
我很痛苦。
And we removed the vertebrae and most of the cancer, and did a spinal fusion with a titanium frame, we did radiation, we did chemo...
我们切除了椎骨和大部分癌症，并用钛框架进行了脊柱融合，我们进行了放射治疗，我们进行了化疗......
And I did my first Single Patient IND.
我完成了第一个单一患者 IND。
Since 2017 I've invested in one other Y Combinator company, and over time that guy became my best friend.
自 2017 年以来，我投资了另一家 Y Combinator 公司，随着时间的推移，那个人成为了我最好的朋友。
His wife became my wife's best friend.
他的妻子成了我妻子最好的朋友。
And every time he was fundraising, the investors wouldn't put any money in.
而且每次他融资的时候，投资人都不肯投钱。
And every time, I said "This doesn't make any sense to me, that they're reluctant to put money in.
每次我都会说：“这对我来说没有任何意义，他们不愿意投入资金。
I'll finance the company." So over time, I became his biggest investor.
我将为公司提供资金。”所以久而久之，我就成了他最大的投资者。
And what he's doing is combining drugs with binders through click chemistry, allowing you to target different parts of the body.
他正在做的是通过点击化学将药物与粘合剂结合起来，让你能够瞄准身体的不同部位。
And when I became so very sick, he made a -- we asked for an exception to treat me with his drug.
当我病得很重时，他提出——我们要求破例用他的药物治疗我。
And we got that exception.
我们得到了这个例外。
\[08:24\] And we did all the treatments.
[08:24] 我们做了所有的治疗。
And then two years later, in '24, the cancer started growing again.
两年后，即 24 年，癌症再次开始生长。
And the doctor said "You're done with standard of care.
医生说：“你已经完成了标准护理。
There's no more treatment we have for you.
我们没有更多的治疗方法可以给你了。
Maybe there's a trial somewhere..." And I started looking around...
也许某处有一场审判……”我开始环顾四周……
I have a weird HLA type, which disqualified me from a few trials...
我有一个奇怪的 HLA 类型，这使我失去了一些试验的资格......
And I have bone cancer, osteosarcoma, which is kind of a rare disease...
我患有骨癌，骨肉瘤，这是一种罕见的疾病......
So there wasn't anything for me.
所以对我来说没有任何东西。
And it was my "Oh, s\*\*t" moment.
那是我“噢，糟糕”的时刻。
Like "Oh, s\*\*t.
就像“哦，s*t。
If I don't move, I'm going to be dead soon." I had to step down as a CEO, because I needed to focus my full attention on this.
如果我再不动，我很快就会死掉。”我不得不辞去首席执行官的职务，因为我需要将全部注意力集中在这件事上。
I started talking to anyone, traveling anywhere, I went to the medical conferences.
我开始和任何人交谈，去任何地方旅行，我去参加医学会议。
I went as far as China to get scans...
我远赴中国进行扫描...
And I started doing maximal diagnostics, making my own treatments, doing treatments in parallel, and trying to scale that for other people.
我开始进行最大限度的诊断，制定自己的治疗方案，并行进行治疗，并尝试将其推广到其他人。
And so that's been the journey I've been on in over this last year.
这就是我去年经历的旅程。
It's been a lot of ups and downs, but also extremely interesting.
虽然经历了很多坎坷，但也非常有趣。
And I've learned a lot, but I also think that there's a lot of things that could be better, and I'm trying to change those to be better, and making the path I've been on easier for other people to follow.
我学到了很多东西，但我也认为有很多事情可以做得更好，我正在努力将这些事情变得更好，并使我所走的道路更容易让其他人遵循。
**Jerod Santo:** I understand the reasoning for parallel directions or testings, because you only have so much time before it's too late...
**杰罗德·桑托：** 我理解并行方向或测试的原因，因为你只有这么多时间，否则就太晚了......
And so I totally understand that.
所以我完全理解这一点。
It seems like, as a software guy, you want to try to isolate and do one thing at a time, and then see if it works, and then do the next thing, versus having multiple factors.
看起来，作为一名软件人员，您想要尝试一次隔离并做一件事，然后看看它是否有效，然后再做下一件事，而不是考虑多个因素。
I suppose if it's working, it doesn't really matter which of the five or six is working, if it's working...
我想如果它有效的话，那么五个或六个中的哪一个有效并不重要，如果它有效......
But certainly, for reproducibility and for helping others you do want to be able to have some sort of result that you can come out of it.
但当然，为了可重复性和帮助他人，你确实希望能够从中得到某种结果。
So tell me about the parallel side and some of the trials that that introduces, and how you're maybe solving those problems as you go.
那么请告诉我有关并行方面的信息以及由此引入的一些试验，以及您如何解决这些问题。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Yeah...
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 是的......
If you want to be able to reproduce, you need to isolate the \[unintelligible 00:10:38.01\] So when I started doing parallel treatments, one doctor told me to my face "But what if it works?
如果你想能够繁殖，你需要隔离\[无法理解的00:10:38.01\]所以当我开始做并行治疗时，一位医生当面告诉我“但是如果它有效怎么办？
We won't know what would have cured you." And then I let that doctor know that I wasn't interested in finding what cured me...
我们不知道什么可以治愈你。”然后我让那位医生知道我对寻找治愈我的方法不感兴趣......
I was interested in getting cured.
我对治愈很感兴趣。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** The combination of treatments...
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 治疗组合......
There's very little incentive for pharma companies to kind of spend a billion dollars - it's now a billion dollars for a successful trial...
制药公司几乎没有动力去花费 10 亿美元——现在一次成功的试验需要花费 10 亿美元......
To spend a billion dollars for an approved medicine to research a combination of drugs.
花费十亿美元购买一种已批准的药物来研究药物组合。
So there's no incentive.
所以没有动力。
So all you see on the market are these drugs taken in isolation.
所以你在市场上看到的都是这些单独服用的药物。
And doctors are reluctant to combine them, because it's never been done before.
医生不愿意将它们结合起来，因为以前从未这样做过。
But if you look at the first principles, you can say "Hey, these treatments are probably okay to combine."
但如果你看看首要原则，你可以说“嘿，这些治疗方法可能可以结合起来。”
What you don't want to do is combine two things that both hit the kidneys, because your kidneys are going to be over capacity, and that's not good.
你不想做的是将两种都会影响肾脏的事情结合起来，因为你的肾脏会超负荷，这不好。
So every time we combine treatments, I have for example a pathologist in my tumor board to look at like "Hey, can we combine these things?" And we also look at my own markup, including genetics, but also histochemistry, where you kind of -- we do color slides, and we do multiplexing, so we can color multiple things...
因此，每次我们结合治疗时，我的肿瘤委员会都会有一位病理学家看着“嘿，我们可以结合这些东西吗？”我们还研究我自己的标记，包括遗传学，还有组织化学，我们做彩色幻灯片，我们做多重分析，所以我们可以为多种东西着色......
\[12:09\] For example, I told you I went to China three months ago, and I did that to get the first B7H3 scan available to me.
\[12:09\] 例如，我告诉过你我三个月前去了中国，我这样做是为了获得第一次 B7H3 扫描。
And because of what we learned there, we were able to kind of change the development of one of the drugs I'm developing to remedy what we saw.
由于我们在那里学到的知识，我们能够改变我正在开发的一种药物的开发，以弥补我们所看到的问题。
We saw in China that I have higher B7H3 expression in the liver than any one of the 20 patients they saw before.
我们在中国看到，我的肝脏中 B7H3 的表达量比他们之前看到的 20 名患者中的任何一位都高。
And we decided to combine that medicine with something that's rarely expressed in the liver, so it's not going to destroy my liver going forward.
我们决定将这种药物与肝脏中很少表达的东西结合起来，这样它就不会破坏我的肝脏。
So what I'm trying to do is kind of be first principles about it, instead of kind of relying on evidence for the ability to combine, because that evidence - it doesn't exist, because no one has the incentive to do that.
所以我想做的是关于它的首要原则，而不是依赖证据来证明组合的能力，因为那个证据 - 它不存在，因为没有人有动力这样做。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** And most people die not because they run out of treatments, they run out of time.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 大多数人死亡并不是因为他们没有治疗方法，而是因为他们没有时间。
**Jerod Santo:** So why China?
**杰罗德·桑托：** 那么为什么是中国呢？
Is it a technical thing?
这是技术问题吗？
Is it a regulatory thing here?
这里有监管的事情吗？
They're just more advanced in certain areas?
他们只是在某些领域更先进？
Why did you have to go all the way there for this particular test?
为什么你必须大老远去参加这个特殊的测试？
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Yeah, so to be clear, most of my treatments and most of my tests are happening in the US, but Europe and China are also part of it.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 是的，需要明确的是，我的大部分治疗和大部分测试都在美国进行，但欧洲和中国也是其中的一部分。
And what's remarkable about China - I found remarkable that I was the first...
中国的非凡之处在于——我发现我是第一个……
It was my first time traveling to that hospital.
这是我第一次去那家医院。
Within two hours, I was checked in, they formulated the diagnostic scan ingredients, they gave me the scan, they printed the results, they talked me through it, and I was outside again.
两个小时内，我被登记入住，他们制定了诊断扫描成分，他们给了我扫描，他们打印了结果，他们跟我讲了一遍，然后我又出去了。
I've not seen that speed in the US.
我在美国没见过这么快的速度。
One other thing that's happening is that these hospitals have a lot of patients.
正在发生的另一件事是这些医院有很多病人。
So instead of running a trial at 10 different hospitals, where it's a lot of work to combine all these investigators and to train all of them, you can run it in a single hospital, the same hospital where the investigator is at, the researcher is at.
因此，您不必在 10 家不同的医院进行试验，因为在 10 家不同的医院中，需要花费大量的工作来组合所有这些研究人员并培训所有这些人，您可以在一家医院进行试验，即研究人员和研究人员所在的同一家医院。
So they have a much higher speed of running trials.
所以他们的运行试验速度要快得多。
And we're starting to see a giant shift in the literature of trying to do more trials, and making more medicines.
我们开始看到文献中发生了巨大的转变，试图进行更多的试验，并制造更多的药物。
**Jerod Santo:** So where do you stand?
**杰罗德·桑托：** 那么你的立场是什么？
How's your health?
你的健康状况如何？
How are you feeling?
你感觉怎么样？
How are you doing?
你好吗？
What's the future look like?
未来是什么样子？
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Yeah, I'm doing well.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 是的，我做得很好。
Right now we cannot detect my cancer, so that's great.
现在我们无法检测出我的癌症，所以这很好。
It's a really good spot to be in.
这真是一个好地方。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Compared to a year ago, where it was growing, and we had zero treatments, today I have kind of a therapeutic ladder, as in like if things get worse, we'll escalate the medicine, and there's 30 medicines on it.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 与一年前相比，当时它正在增长，而且我们的治疗方法为零，今天我有一个治疗阶梯，就像如果情况变得更糟，我们会升级药物，上面有 30 种药物。
So we have options now...
所以我们现在有选择...
And I'm continuing the development of 10 different drugs and diagnostics that make a lot of sense for me to have.
我正在继续开发 10 种不同的药物和诊断方法，这对我来说很有意义。
I've also started in the meantime six companies to scale treatments for other people; treatments that I've done, but also treatments I've not done, but just technologies we came across that we thought are underinvested in.
与此同时，我还创办了六家公司来扩大对其他人的治疗；我做过的治疗，也有我没有做过的治疗，但只是我们发现的我们认为投资不足的技术。
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah.
**亚当·斯塔科维亚克：** 是的。
Do you know what has made your cancer undetectable then?
您知道是什么让您的癌症无法检测到吗？
I know that you weren't being that research lab before, or that research rat before, but have you pinpointed what may have worked with these 10 different medicines you're developing?
我知道您以前不是那个研究实验室，也不是那个研究老鼠，但是您是否已经确定过什么可能对您正在开发的这 10 种不同药物有效？
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Yeah, for sure.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 是的，当然。
I might have been one of the first people to do single cell sequencing as an individual patient, outside of the context of a trial.
我可能是第一批在试验之外以个体患者身份进行单细胞测序的人之一。
It's kind of a strange name, because you're not sequencing a single cell, you're sequencing thousands of cells, but you're kind of -- you're able to see the genetic markup of each cell, and you're able to see what the tumor is looking like, which cells are in there, how do they behave, and what's their genetic markup.
这是一个有点奇怪的名字，因为你不是在对单个细胞进行测序，而是在对数千个细胞进行测序，但你可以看到每个细胞的基因标记，并且你可以看到肿瘤的样子、其中有哪些细胞、它们的行为如何以及它们的基因标记是什么。
It's an incredible, powerful technology.
这是一项令人难以置信的强大技术。
\[16:10\] We compared that to an atlas of kind of what bone marrow should look like...
[16:10] 我们将其与骨髓图集进行了比较......
We zoomed in, we were able to kind of zoom in on the cancer cells.
我们放大了，我们能够放大癌细胞。
And one thing we noticed is that they had a lot of fibroblast.
我们注意到的一件事是它们有大量的成纤维细胞。
Fibroblast is kind of scar tissue.
成纤维细胞是一种疤痕组织。
And we were aware of a treatment in Germany, an experimental treatment that has an FAP binder that binds to fibroblasts, and then the other side you put a radioactive element.
我们知道德国有一种治疗方法，这是一种实验性治疗方法，其中含有与成纤维细胞结合的 FAP 粘合剂，然后在另一侧放置放射性元素。
Lutetium or Actinium.
镥或锕。
And I did two treatments there, with incredibly good results.
我在那里做了两次治疗，效果非常好。
First of all, no side effects.
首先，没有副作用。
I couldn't detect any.
我无法检测到任何。
And we saw 60% necrosis, and 20% shrinkage, which - considering it was only two treatments, that was a great result.
我们看到 60% 的坏死和 20% 的收缩，考虑到只有两次治疗，这是一个很好的结果。
And my cancer is in my back near my spinal cord.
我的癌症位于我的背部，靠近脊髓。
Because of the shrinkage, it detached from the spinal cord, allowing a really talented surgeon to go in and go after it, and remove most of it surgically, which wasn't possible before.
由于收缩，它与脊髓分离，从而允许一位非常有才华的外科医生进入并追踪它，并通过手术切除大部分，这在以前是不可能的。
**Adam Stacoviak:** And this is because of what attacked the scar tissue...
** Adam Stacoviak：** 这是因为疤痕组织受到攻击......
What was the name for the scar tissue?
疤痕组织的名称是什么？
Is it because you were able to pinpoint that, and allow it to detach from the scar tissue?
是因为你能够精确定位它，并让它从疤痕组织中分离出来吗？
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Yeah, so what we were able to do - because of the scar tissue, we had a binder for that, called FAP; or this experimental treatment in Germany had that.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 是的，所以我们能够做的 - 由于疤痕组织，我们有一个粘合剂，称为 FAP；德国的这项实验性治疗就有这样的效果。
And you combine the binder with the radioactive stuff.
然后将粘合剂与放射性物质结合起来。
So a lot of drugs, you just give them to the entire body, like a standard chemo drug.
所以很多药物，你只需将它们给予整个身体，就像标准的化疗药物一样。
It's devastating.
这是毁灭性的。
This drug is also a really nasty thing.
这药也是个很恶心的东西。
Lutetium is radiating you from the inside.
镥从内部辐射您。
I was 10 times as radioactive as an airplane at altitude from the outside, let alone what was happening inside of me.
从外部看，我的放射性水平是飞机在高空的十倍，更不用说我体内发生的事情了。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** You can't be around people.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 你不能和人在一起。
But because it was on this FAP binder, it targeted my tumor especially.
但因为它是在 FAP 粘合剂上，所以它特别针对我的肿瘤。
And there's also a little bit of risk, for example your loss of taste and smell, but I had no side effects there.
而且还有一点风险，例如失去味觉和嗅觉，但我没有出现任何副作用。
So it was very specifically bound to the tumor tissue, which is just amazing.
所以它与肿瘤组织非常特异性地结合，这真是太神奇了。
Most cancer treatments are way worse.
大多数癌症治疗方法都更糟糕。
And yeah, enabling surgery was a big deal.
是的，启用手术是一件大事。
Like, if it's right up against the dura, your spinal cord, that's not great.
就像，如果它正好抵住硬脑膜，也就是你的脊髓，那就不太好了。
But in this case, it was detached from there.
但在这种情况下，它与那里分离了。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** You're radioactive for kind of a week, but only two days in isolation.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 你有一周的放射性，但只隔离两天。
And then you get a letter, and then you walk at the airport...
然后你收到一封信，然后你走向机场......
Maybe you've seen those things in the US now, you walk into the airport and there's kind of a black thing...
也许你现在在美国见过这些东西，你走进机场，有一种黑色的东西......
Guess what?
你猜怎么着？
Beep, beep, beep...
嘟嘟嘟嘟……
**Sid Sijbrandij:** We once had three people with scanners around us, and they had to call kind of Washington, because their sensors were showing plutonium, which would not be good.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 我们周围曾经有三个带着扫描仪的人，他们不得不打电话给华盛顿，因为他们的传感器显示出钚，这不太好。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** But luckily, it was the Lutetium after all.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 但幸运的是，它毕竟是镥。
But they had to have a scientist in Washington \[unintelligible 00:19:32.23\]
但他们必须在华盛顿有一位科学家\[难以理解的00:19:32.23\]
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Yeah.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 是的。
As soon as they knew it was me and not my luggage, they were super-chill about it.
当他们知道那是我而不是我的行李时，他们对此非常冷静。
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[19:49\] Can you talk about the type of cancer, the sarcoma?
**Adam Stacoviak：** \[19:49\] 你能谈谈癌症的类型，肉瘤吗？
There's like 70 different types.
大约有70种不同的类型。
And I ask this question because I have a dear friend of me and my wife's who passed away probably 14 years ago, and she had sarcoma in her lungs.
我问这个问题是因为我和我妻子有一位亲爱的朋友，她大概在 14 年前去世了，她的肺部患有肉瘤。
She was actually studying in Houston, which is a very popular place for cancer research, at least here in the States...
她实际上在休斯顿学习，那里是癌症研究非常受欢迎的地方，至少在美国是这样……
It's one of the capitals of cancer research.
它是癌症研究的中心之一。
And she was studying to become a doctor in this field.
她正在学习成为该领域的一名医生。
And actually, not through her lab time or anything like that, but she came to actually get the cancer.
事实上，不是通过她的实验室时间或类似的事情，而是她真的患上了癌症。
I don't know how to describe getting cancer, if it just develops or if it grows, or what actually gives the cancer to you...
我不知道如何描述得了癌症，它是只是发展还是增长，或者到底是什么导致了癌症......
But she developed the same sarcoma cancer that she was studying.
但她患上了与她正在研究的相同的肉瘤。
And it was just really, really...
真的，真的……
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, quite bizarre.
** Adam Stacoviak：** 是的，很奇怪。
Like, there was no real connection there.
就像，那里没有真正的联系。
The same doctor that she was studying under was her doctor during her process.
她学习期间的同一位医生也是她的医生。
She obviously ended up passing away...
显然她最终还是去世了……
It was about a year, maybe a year-ish.
大约有一年，也许一年左右。
Devastating to our life and our friends, but...
这对我们的生活和我们的朋友来说是毁灭性的，但是......
Can you speak to the sarcoma type cancer and what that type of cancer does or does not do?
您能谈谈肉瘤型癌症以及这种类型的癌症会做什么或不会做什么吗？
Do you know much about it?
你对此了解很多吗？
Obviously, you probably do, but there's 70 different types, and I'm not even that familiar, except for I know that she had sarcoma cancer, and you mentioned you have a version of it as well.
显然，你可能知道，但有 70 种不同的类型，我什至不太熟悉，除了我知道她患有肉瘤癌，而且你提到你也有一个版本。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Yeah.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 是的。
I'm not a doctor, this is no medical advice...
我不是医生，这不是医疗建议......
I know very little about that type of sarcoma.
我对这种肉瘤知之甚少。
I do know sarcomas are genetically pretty diverse, so there's a lot more studying to be done.
我确实知道肉瘤在基因上非常多样化，因此还有很多研究要做。
For example, the standard genetic reports showed TFE3 amplification.
例如，标准基因报告显示 TFE3 扩增。
But when we really started digging, it wasn't true.
但当我们真正开始挖掘时，事实并非如此。
That wasn't the driver at all.
那根本不是司机。
So because of all that copying of the genes, it's harder to analyze...
因此，由于基因的所有复制，分析变得更加困难......
But there's also more kind of special things about it that allow you to do more targeting.
但它还有更多特殊的功能，可以让您进行更多的定位。
And you mentioned Houston - big fan.
你提到了休斯顿——他的忠实粉丝。
Houston Methodist is especially great here.
休斯顿卫理公会在这里尤其出色。
And I know very little about lung sarcoma.
而我对肺肉瘤知之甚少。
What I do know is that for bone cancer, the biggest risk is that it spreads to the lungs.
我所知道的是，对于骨癌来说，最大的风险是它扩散到肺部。
If you have these cells going on the loose, the first place they'll likely end up are your lungs.
如果这些细胞处于游离状态，它们最可能到达的第一个地方就是您的肺部。
Also because your lungs are very tiny vessels, so the cells get trapped there the fastest, but also because it's kind of a similar cancer that can grow there.
另外，因为你的肺部是非常微小的血管，所以细胞被困在那里的速度最快，而且还因为它是一种可以在那里生长的类似癌症。
So we were watching for that...
所以我们一直在关注这个...
And at a certain point, I did kind of a regular PET scan, where you look for activity that is out of the ordinary...
在某个时候，我做了一次常规的 PET 扫描，寻找异常的活动......
And I remember vividly, I was talking with my direct reports, and I get a message, a text from my GP.
我清楚地记得，我正在与我的直接下属交谈，我收到一条消息，一条来自我的全科医生的短信。
And he says "It's positive, not subtle." And I'm like "It's positive.
他说“这是积极的，而不是微妙的。”我想“这是积极的。
Okay, great." And I'm like "Oh, s\*\*t, no!
好吧，太好了。”我就像“哦，s\*\*t，不！
Positive in a medical setting, that means something else.
在医疗环境中呈阳性则意味着另一回事。
It means positive for cancer." And not subtle - that sounds bad.
这意味着癌症呈阳性。”而且不微妙——这听起来很糟糕。
And I opened up the report, and I read my death sentence.
我打开报告，读了我的死刑判决。
It had spread to 50 sites in my lungs.
它已经扩散到我肺部的 50 个部位。
My lungs were lighting up like a Christmas tree.
我的肺部像圣诞树一样发光。
And the radiologist gave an undifferentiated diagnosis - definitely cancer, spread to the lungs, way metastatic.
放射科医生给出了一个无差别的诊断——肯定是癌症，已经扩散到肺部，并且是转移性的。
50 places means \[unintelligible 00:23:29.14\] There's no way to do it with surgery.
50个地方意味着\[无法理解00:23:29.14\]没有办法通过手术来做到这一点。
And so I walked out of the room, collected my thoughts for 10 minutes, called my wife, called in my CFO, CLO...
于是我走出房间，冷静了 10 分钟，给我的妻子打电话，给我的 CFO、CLO 打电话……
I'm like "This is the situation.
我就像“这就是情况。
What do we do?
我们该怎么办？
Are we gonna tell, or not?" I decided to tell.
我们到底说还是不说？”我决定告诉。
And we all took a long walk together, my doctor started coming in, "So sorry for you.
我们一起走了很长一段路，我的医生开始进来，“很抱歉你。
So sorry for you.
太对不起你了。
So sorry for you." And then the last doctor basically to chime in was like "Yeah, 60% chance this isn't cancer."
真对不起你。”然后最后一位医生基本上插话道：“是的，60% 的可能性这不是癌症。”
**Sid Sijbrandij:** I give a call, like \[unintelligible 00:24:19.17\] what do you see?"
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 我打电话，就像\[无法理解的00:24:19.17\]你看到了什么？”
**Sid Sijbrandij:** He's like "Yeah, the lymph node pattern, how it spreads - this doesn't seem like lung cancer to me." And this is a guy who've run the most osteosarcoma trials, or the most sarcoma trials in the nation.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 他就像“是的，淋巴结模式，它是如何扩散的 - 这对我来说不像肺癌。”这是一个在全国进行最多骨肉瘤试验或最多肉瘤试验的人。
So he's just seen so many patients, and seen so many people who this happened to.
所以他见过很多病人，也见过很多发生过这种事的人。
So, okay...
那么，好吧...
So I went to -- now I was a dog with a bone, and within a few hours we cleared it up that this was the remnants of COVID.
所以我去了——现在我是一只有骨头的狗，几个小时内我们就澄清了这是新冠病毒的残余。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Because we were so afraid of this happening, including the radiologist, everyone had a bit of a tunnel vision.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 因为我们非常害怕这种情况发生，包括放射科医生，所以每个人都有点目光短浅。
But quite the experience to tell your team you're a goner.
但告诉你的团队你已经完蛋了，这真是一次经历。
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah.
**亚当·斯塔科维亚克：** 是的。
And then the exact opposite when you're like "You know what?
然后当你说“你知道吗？
I think I made a mistake...
我想我犯了一个错误...
It was remnants of COVID, and not --"
这是新冠病毒的残余，而不是——”
**Adam Stacoviak:** Because that's exactly it.
**Adam Stacoviak：** 因为就是这样。
Like, it went to her lungs and brain quickly; very, very quickly.
就像，它很快就进入了她的肺部和大脑；非常非常快。
Those are the two places that it tends to spread.
这是它容易传播的两个地方。
So it may begin lower in your liver or in your back, like you were, but it spreads quickly to other places and it sort of takes you quickly if it's not COVID, if it's something different.
因此，它可能会像您一样从您的肝脏或背部开始，但它会迅速传播到其他地方，如果不是新冠病毒，如果是不同的东西，它会很快带走您。
**Jerod Santo:** Right.
**杰罗德·桑托：** 对。
Probably the happiest COVID diagnosis of all time, wasn't it?
这可能是有史以来最令人高兴的新冠诊断，不是吗？
**Sid Sijbrandij:** I wasn't super-happy about the diagnosis, though.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 不过，我对诊断结果并不是非常满意。
That radiologist and I are maybe not going to be friends.
那位放射科医生和我可能不会成为朋友。
**Jerod Santo:** Oh, yeah.
**杰罗德·桑托：** 哦，是的。
I mean, obviously, they put you through turmoil, and...
我的意思是，很明显，他们让你经历了混乱，而且......
Terrible things.
可怕的事情。
I had a nowhere near as serious, and yet relatable diagnosis with my knee, when I was told that I had torn my ACL and I would never play basketball again by a physician's assistant...
当医生助理告诉我我的前交叉韧带撕裂并且我再也不能打篮球时，我的膝盖得到了远不那么严重但又相关的诊断……
And then the actual knee doctor came in, he's like "No, you're good." I'm shortening the story...
然后真正的膝盖医生进来了，他说：“不，你很好。”我正在缩短故事...
But I had like 15 minutes of like "Oh, I love basketball." Like, my whole life changes in small ways.
但我有大约 15 分钟的时间说“哦，我喜欢篮球。”就像，我的整个生活都发生了一些小变化。
Yours, obviously, in a huge way.
显然，在很大程度上是你的。
But then him being like "Nah, she didn't understand this thing, and she messed up", and "It's not as bad as she thought it was." And I was like "Let's fire her, or something."
但后来他说“不，她不明白这件事，她搞砸了”，“事情没有她想象的那么糟糕”。我当时就想“我们解雇她吧，或者别的什么。”
**Adam Stacoviak:** So it's undetectable in this moment.
**Adam Stacoviak：** 所以此时它是无法检测到的。
You just shared this dramatic story arc that you've gone through.
您刚刚分享了您经历过的这个戏剧性的故事情节。
You're recalling it here in this moment, on this podcast...
此时此刻，在这个播客中，您正在回忆起它......
Is the expectation at this point with you and your medical staff that it's not going to come back?
您和您的医务人员目前是否期望这种情况不会复发？
Or it's just undetectable and you're still actively trying to just work on it, or treat it?
或者它只是无法检测到，而您仍在积极尝试解决或治疗它？
What is the current status of how you're dealing with it?
目前您的处理情况如何？
Is it just gone for now and wait, or how are you handling things?
是暂时消失并等待，还是您正在如何处理事情？
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Yeah, we assume that it's not gone.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 是的，我们假设它还没有消失。
The only reason it'd be gone -- we know that the surgery didn't cure it, that they left so-called positive margins.
它消失的唯一原因是——我们知道手术并没有治愈它，而是留下了所谓的正切缘。
So they left cancer.
所以他们离开了癌症。
The only thing that was remarkable - the cancer we removed, we were able to flash free some of it, which is amazing...
唯一值得注意的是——我们切除了癌症，我们能够清除其中的一些，这真是太神奇了……
For people with cancer, it's way better to flash free stuff, because it allows you to do many, many more diagnoses on it later than if you do the standard, which is FFPE...
对于患有癌症的人来说，最好不要使用闪存，因为与执行标准（即 FFPE）相比，它可以让您以后进行更多、更多的诊断...
Which preserves it, but it precludes you from doing a ton of tests.
这保留了它，但它阻止您进行大量测试。
\[27:54\] So if you want to have an active role in your treatment, you've got to convince the hospital to flash free some of it, so that you preserve optionality to run these diagnostics later.
[27:54] 因此，如果您想在治疗中发挥积极作用，您必须说服医院释放其中的一部分，以便您保留稍后运行这些诊断的选择权。
And what we saw was that the T-cell infiltration went up a lot.
我们看到 T 细胞浸润增加了很多。
It went up from 20% to 90%.
它从 20% 上升到 90%。
So the place was buzzing with T-cells, which is a good thing...
所以这个地方充满了 T 细胞，这是一件好事......
And we think that is a combination of the two checkpoint inhibitors that I'm taking, that kind of unleash your immune system...
我们认为这是我正在服用的两种检查点抑制剂的组合，可以释放你的免疫系统......
And one experimental treatment that is an oncolytic virus, so like a modified common cold virus that drops the TGF-beta.
一种实验性治疗方法是溶瘤病毒，就像一种改良的普通感冒病毒，可以降低 TGF-β。
The TGF-beta is something the cancer uses to hide from the immune system, and it kind of tears away that invisibility cloak.
TGF-β是癌症用来躲避免疫系统的东西，它会撕掉隐形斗篷。
So that's good news.
这是个好消息。
We don't super-think that that's curative, but I'm gearing up in two weeks to take an mRNA vaccine, and that's like a 50/50 of curative...
我们并不认为这有疗效，但我准备在两周内接种 mRNA 疫苗，这就像 50/50 的疗效......
But there's a reason we have like 10 drugs in the pipeline.
但我们正在研发大约 10 种药物是有原因的。
It's where we're trying to cover all our bases, and we'd rather have a drug too many than one too few.
这是我们试图覆盖所有基础的地方，我们宁愿药物太多，也不愿药物太少。
**Adam Stacoviak:** It sounds like you're in a buy time kind of scenario.
**Adam Stacoviak：** 听起来你正处于买入时间的场景中。
Am I reading that right?
我读得对吗？
You're buying time to research it more, to attack it more, to have an mRNA opportunity for a 50-50 chance?
你要花时间去更多地研究它，更多地攻击它，以获得 50-50 的 mRNA 机会吗？
Is that kind of where you're at?
你就是这样的地方吗？
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Yeah.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 是的。
So the mRNA is potentially curative, so in that case you're kind of -- you're done with this.
所以 mRNA 具有潜在的治疗作用，所以在这种情况下，你就完成了。
But it's certainly like buying time.
但这确实就像是在争取时间。
You've gotta have enough treatments to make it to the new development.
你必须有足够的治疗才能进入新的发展阶段。
Both science advancing, and some of these drugs that I'm developing - they just take years, many years to develop.
科学的进步，以及我正在开发的一些药物——它们只需要很多年的时间来开发。
So you want to make sure you make it to the next spot, and hopefully in as good of a state as you can, with hopefully no metastatic cancer, hopefully no fried kidneys.
所以你要确保你能到达下一个地点，并希望保持尽可能好的状态，希望没有转移性癌症，希望没有炸肾。
**Adam Stacoviak:** What does day to day like for you?
**Adam Stacoviak：** 你的日常生活是什么样的？
...maybe in the last six months, how is your life in terms of how you live?
...也许在过去的六个月里，您的生活方式如何？
What are the things you focus on?
您关注哪些事情？
Are you traveling a ton to obviously do research, or get treated?
您是否经常旅行显然是为了进行研究或接受治疗？
What's the day to day in your life right now?
您现在的日常生活是怎样的？
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Yeah, it's a lot of working.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 是的，工作量很大。
I like working.
我喜欢工作。
These last few weeks I've worked 10-hour days; a lot of meetings, mostly the whole day's meetings, 25-minute meetings, like 15 a day.
最近几周我每天工作 10 个小时；很多会议，大部分是全天的会议，25分钟的会议，比如一天15个。
I've also done some traveling for pleasure...
我也曾为了快乐而旅行过......
We thought at the beginning that this might be my last year, so we celebrated the 25-year anniversary of me and my wife extensively...
我们一开始就认为这可能是我的最后一年，所以我们广泛地庆祝了我和我妻子的25周年纪念日......
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Thank you.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 谢谢。
With friends and family.
与朋友和家人一起。
That was great.
那很棒。
Also a lot of traveling like going to medical conferences, going to treatments on multiple continents.
还有很多旅行，比如去参加医学会议，去多个大陆接受治疗。
But also doing fun stuff, like adding observability to GitLab.
但也做一些有趣的事情，比如为 GitLab 添加可观察性。
I started an AI coding company called Kilo.
我创办了一家名为 Kilo 的人工智能编码公司。
I'm still creating these companies around open source projects with open core ventures...
我仍在围绕开源项目和开放核心企业创建这些公司......
And then since September, starting two biotechs every month.
然后从九月开始，每个月启动两项生物技术。
**Jerod Santo:** So how many companies are you currently involved in, today, and here in December?
**Jerod Santo：** 那么，今天以及 12 月份，您目前参与了多少家公司？
**Jerod Santo:** And what made you want to get into open source agentic coding when you have all these medical companies, you've got GitLab stuff going on...?
**Jerod Santo：** 当你拥有所有这些医疗公司、GitLab 的东西时，是什么让你想要进入开源代理编码......？
But you want to work on this.
但你想在这方面努力。
Why do you want to work on this particular problem?
你为什么想解决这个特殊问题？
**Sid Sijbrandij:** I saw kind of the rise of open source agentic coding companies...
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 我看到了开源代理编码公司的崛起......
And obviously, agentic coding is very cool, it's the future...
显然，代理编码非常酷，它是未来......
And it was cool to see that open source had a chance here.
看到开源在这里有机会真是太酷了。
Before I thought it's all going to be closed source, and I saw the rise of open source and I thought "Okay, time to join that game."
在我认为一切都将是闭源之前，我看到了开源的兴起，我想“好吧，是时候加入这场游戏了。”
**Jerod Santo:** Hm.
**杰罗德·桑托：** 嗯。
Are you deploying a similar playbook that you deployed with GitLab back in the day?
您是否正在部署与当时使用 GitLab 部署的类似的 playbook？
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Yeah.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 是的。
Kilo has great agentic coding, but the best reason to use it is that it's all in one.
Kilo 具有出色的代理编码，但使用它的最佳理由是它是一体的。
So not only can you do the coding, it can also review your code.
因此，您不仅可以进行编码，它还可以检查您的代码。
Not only can it do that, it can also do the security review.
它不仅可以做到这一点，还可以进行安全审查。
Not only can it do that, it can also deploy it.
它不仅可以做到这一点，还可以部署它。
So it's available everywhere...
所以随处可见...
VS Code, JetBrains CLI, in the cloud, in the mobile app...
VS Code、JetBrains CLI、云端、移动应用程序...
And it can do the full life cycle, including deployment, and we're working on more there.
它可以完成整个生命周期，包括部署，我们正在这方面开展更多工作。
Just like GitLab, the idea is to be the all in one solution where you don't have to switch applications the whole time to do what you need to do.
就像 GitLab 一样，我们的想法是成为一体化解决方案，您不必一直切换应用程序来完成您需要做的事情。
And to be open source, where people can contribute improvements.
并且是开源的，人们可以贡献改进。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** We're thinking if a feature is more appealing for managers or executives, that's where they need to pay.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 我们正在考虑，如果某个功能对经理或高管更具吸引力，那么他们就需要为此付费。
So for our teams functionality, for example, to see AI adoption throughout an organization - that's paid functionality, 15 bucks per user per month.
因此，对于我们的团队功能来说，例如，在整个组织中看到人工智能的采用 - 这是付费功能，每个用户每月 15 美元。
And then we also have an enterprise version with features that appeal to executives, like centralized, bring your own keys, so they can send it to Bedrock, in their VPC.
然后，我们还有一个企业版本，具有吸引高管的功能，例如集中式、携带您自己的密钥，以便他们可以将其发送到 VPC 中的 Bedrock。
**Jerod Santo:** \[36:07\] That makes total sense.
**杰罗德·桑托：** \[36:07\] 这完全有道理。
So are you working on models as well, or are you just model-agnostic...?
那么您是否也在研究模型，或者您只是与模型无关......？
What's your look on that aspect of the world?
您对世界的这一方面有何看法？
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Yeah, we're not working on models ourselves.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 是的，我们自己并不在研究模型。
We're working very, very hard on supporting older models.
我们正在非常非常努力地支持旧型号。
So hundreds of models work, over 500.
所以有数百个模型可以工作，超过 500 个。
We're the most prominent launch partner for new models.
我们是最著名的新车型发布合作伙伴。
So a lot of new models, a lot of stealth models are first launched on Kilo...
所以很多新的车型，很多隐形的车型都是在Kilo上首发的……
And a lot of our users use free models, like Grok, Minimax, GLM, with Kilo.
我们的很多用户都使用免费模型，例如 Grok、Minimax、GLM 和 Kilo。
**Jerod Santo:** Interesting.
**杰罗德·桑托：** 有趣。
I think I haven't even heard of a couple of those.
我想我什至没有听说过其中的几个。
I've heard of Grok, but Minimax, I haven't even heard of.
我听说过 Grok，但是 Minimax，我什至没有听说过。
So this is either underground, or upcoming, or...
所以这要么是地下的，要么即将到来，要么......
When you say new - bleeding edge, perhaps?
当你说新的——尖端技术时，也许？
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Oh yeah.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 哦，是的。
It's all new.
一切都是新的。
It's all launched in the last two months.
这一切都是在过去两个月内推出的。
There's a lot of kind of Chinese frontier labs, and they want to quickly get their models more popular, so they offer incredible pricing...
中国有很多前沿实验室，他们希望快速让他们的模型更受欢迎，所以他们提供令人难以置信的价格......
Just like Grok.
就像格罗克一样。
Grok Code is an incredibly good model, and it's been free for months now.
Grok Code 是一个非常好的模型，并且已经免费几个月了。
**Adam Stacoviak:** It's an interesting space, because you've got a lot of things happening around Google in particular...
**Adam Stacoviak：** 这是一个有趣的空间，因为特别是在 Google 周围发生了很多事情......
There was an announcement today for a Flash model...
今天有一个关于 Flash 模型的公告......
I think it's called Gemini Flash, if I can recall correctly.
如果我没记错的话，我想它叫 Gemini Flash。
But when you look at that, they can essentially offer their models in the API layer for virtually free, or a loss leader, because they're trying to build their platform...
但当你看到这一点时，他们基本上可以在 API 层中免费提供他们的模型，或者是亏本的，因为他们正在尝试构建他们的平台......
While Open AI and Anthropic are burning cash, making money for sure, but when you're fighting a competitor that essentially can outlast you because they already have so much incumbent cash or value elsewhere in the chain, it's kind of hard to battle somebody who's willing to lose or break even when you have to profit.
虽然 Open AI 和 Anthropic 正在烧钱，肯定会赚钱，但当你与一个本质上可以比你更长久的竞争对手战斗时，因为他们在链条的其他地方已经拥有如此多的现有现金或价值，那么与那些在你必须盈利时愿意亏损或收支平衡的人战斗是很困难的。
What's your take on the current landscape of just the competitive nature, from nation states like maybe China etc. and companies there, to the battle that's playing out here in the US?
您对当前的竞争格局有何看法，从中国等民族国家和那里的公司，到美国正在上演的战斗？
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Yeah, I think the leading coding model - that's an incredibly competitive space.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 是的，我认为领先的编码模型 - 这是一个竞争极其激烈的领域。
It always feels a bit like Open AI is a better model, and then Google has a better model, and then Anthropic comes back with like the best model by far, for sure.
总感觉有点像 Open AI 是一个更好的模型，然后 Google 有一个更好的模型，然后 Anthropic 带着迄今为止最好的模型回来了，这是肯定的。
But also, the best kind of free model is incredibly competitive, with DeepSeek, Minimax, GLM...
而且，最好的免费模型具有令人难以置信的竞争力，例如 DeepSeek、Minimax、GLM...
All these providers kind of one-upping each other.
所有这些提供商都在互相竞争。
And what we offer our users is you're going to keep using the same application; you don't have to sign up for a ton of stuff, it's just our thing.
我们为用户提供的是您将继续使用同一个应用程序；您不必注册很多东西，这只是我们的事情。
There's no charge, it's completely free.
不收费，完全免费。
And then you have the ability to use any model you want - soon you can use different models - and you can use free models, paid models, whatever you see fit.
然后您就可以使用您想要的任何模型 - 很快您就可以使用不同的模型 - 并且您可以使用免费模型、付费模型，任何您认为合适的模型。
In Kilo you can also kind of define different profiles, because a lot of people prefer Open AI models for planning and architecture, but they prefer something else, like - I use Opus 4.5 for a hard book.
在 Kilo 中，您还可以定义不同的配置文件，因为很多人更喜欢使用开放式 AI 模型进行规划和架构，但他们更喜欢其他东西，例如 - 我使用 Opus 4.5 作为一本硬书。
And troubleshooting, I'd use Grok for kind of the smaller tasks, that are easier...
和故障排除，我会使用 Grok 来完成一些较小的任务，这些任务更容易......
So it's kind of a mix and match approach.
所以这是一种混合搭配的方法。
I think we're going to live in a multi-model world, instead of one model that's the best at everything.
我认为我们将生活在一个多模型的世界中，而不是只有一种模型在所有方面都是最好的。
**Jerod Santo:** For sure.
**杰罗德·桑托：** 当然。
One of the challenges I remember for GitLab, which I think you all overcame, was because you wanted to be all-in-one and you were providing the entire software development life cycle tooling, almost every aspect of that you had startups and businesses that their entire focus was that one thing...
我记得 GitLab 面临的挑战之一，我认为你们都克服了，是因为你们想要一体化，并且你们提供整个软件开发生命周期工具，几乎每个方面都有初创公司和企业，他们的全部重点是一件事......
Whether it was bug tracking, or observability, or deploying, or whatever it is.
无论是错误跟踪、可观察性、部署还是其他什么。
I feel like you're going to have the same situation here with Kilo, where there are people attacking separate slices of what you're trying to do...
我觉得你在 Kilo 上也会遇到同样的情况，有人攻击你想做的事情的不同部分......
And I wonder how you're going to do all the things well.
我想知道你将如何做好所有的事情。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** \[40:18\] Yeah, the same way we did it with GitLab - go incredibly fast.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** \[40:18\] 是的，就像我们使用 GitLab 所做的那样 - 速度快得令人难以置信。
If you look at where we've come from -- we only started in March, and now we have code reviews, deployment...
如果你看看我们的起点——我们从三月份才开始，现在我们有代码审查、部署……
All these things in one package.
所有这些东西都集中在一个包中。
So we're moving extremely fast, also thanks to agentic coding, plus contributions.
因此，我们的进展非常快，这也得益于代理编码和贡献。
And I think we can even improve a little bit on working with the wider community.
我认为我们甚至可以在与更广泛的社区合作方面做出一些改进。
And yeah, when GitLab grew up, it was like "Oh, but Travis CI has already dominated the CI space." It's now like "Hey, CodeRabbit is already dominating code reviews." Just -- yeah, let us cook.
是的，当 GitLab 成长起来时，就像“哦，但 Travis CI 已经统治了 CI 领域。”现在就像“嘿，CodeRabbit 已经在代码审查中占据主导地位。”只是——是的，让我们做饭吧。
We'll go faster than anybody else.
我们会比任何人走得更快。
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] You've got the same people working on it, or how do you know you can cook so fast?
**杰罗德·桑托：** \[笑\]你们有同样的人在研究它，或者你怎么知道你可以煮得这么快？
I mean, it worked the last time, but...
我的意思是，上次它成功了，但是......
Was it the same team?
是同一个团队吗？
Because talented people make good products.
因为有才华的人才能做出好的产品。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** There's some people who after GitLab went to work for other companies, and some of them have joined, but the majority of the team has never worked at GitLab...
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 有一些人在 GitLab 之后去了其他公司工作，也有一些人加入了，但团队中的大多数人从未在 GitLab 工作过……
And they joined Kilo because they want to go incredibly fast.
他们加入 Kilo 是因为他们想要以惊人的速度前进。
They know the bar is high, they know they've got to work really, really hard...
他们知道门槛很高，他们知道自己必须非常非常努力地工作......
For example, at some point, once a quarter we come together, we do a focus week and we all work our butts off for a week, and we do that together.
例如，在某个时候，我们每季度聚一次，进行一次焦点周，我们都全力以赴工作一周，我们一起这样做。
And a week before focus week, it was clear that we weren't recruiting fast enough, so I put a LinkedIn post out.
在焦点周前一周，很明显我们的招聘速度不够快，所以我在 LinkedIn 上发布了一篇帖子。
I said "Look, fly by Monday, we'll make a decision by Wednesday, and then the next Monday you're expected in Amsterdam." And four people did that, and they all shipped the initial prototypes of their functionality by the end of the week.
我说：“听着，周一出发，我们将在周三做出决定，然后下周一你就会到达阿姆斯特丹。”四个人做到了这一点，他们都在本周末交付了其功能的初始原型。
And all of them launched their functionality December 10th, less than two months after focus week.
所有这些功能均于 12 月 10 日推出，距焦点周不到两个月。
And it's all held up so far, and now they're all going to make it better.
到目前为止，这一切都被搁置了，现在他们都会让它变得更好。
But it's an incredible speed.
但这是令人难以置信的速度。
The way I would look at it is it used to be that you needed like a team of seven people to do something...
我的看法是，过去你需要一个七人团队来做某事......
Now you have one person and kind of a whole team of agents working on something.
现在你有一个人和一整支特工团队在做某件事。
So yeah, we have like 20 engineers, but in reality, they're all working with seven agentic coders...
是的，我们有大约 20 名工程师，但实际上，他们都与 7 名代理编码员一起工作......
And that's the expectation, that you as one human ship at the speed of what two years ago would be a team of seven or eight.
这就是期望，你作为一艘人类飞船，其速度相当于两年前七八人团队的速度。
**Jerod Santo:** That's interesting.
**杰罗德·桑托：** 这很有趣。
So you've successfully parallelized your cancer treatments, and your engineers are parallelizing their agents.
因此，您已经成功地并行化了癌症治疗，并且您的工程师正在并行化他们的代理。
I can still only keep one agent busy at a time...
我仍然一次只能让一名特工忙碌......
Maybe I'm not ready for this new era; I couldn't work for Kilo.
也许我还没有准备好迎接这个新时代；我不能为基洛工作。
How do they do it when you've got all these different -- you know, down in the weeds of how they're managing multiple agents working on a singular feature, I suppose, or a set of features that support a larger feature, and how are they staying productive and fast in that environment?
当你拥有所有这些不同的东西时，他们是如何做到的——我想，他们如何管理在单一功能上工作的多个代理，或者支持更大功能的一组功能，以及他们如何在该环境中保持高效和快速？
**Sid Sijbrandij:** That's common.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 这很常见。
You're not alone in only being able to keep one agent busy.
您并不是唯一一个只能让一名客服人员忙碌的人。
But I think 2026 is going to be the year that that changes.
但我认为 2026 年将会发生变化。
Our parallel functionality, where you farm it out to multiple agents in multiple work streams - that's just getting started.
我们的并行功能，您可以将其分配给多个工作流中的多个代理 - 这才刚刚开始。
A month ago the engineer who made Saltwerk, one of the early ways to parallelize things, joined us and he's doing amazing work.
一个月前，创建 Saltwerk（并行化的早期方法之一）的工程师加入了我们，他正在做令人惊叹的工作。
There's still a lot to do.
还有很多事情要做。
For example, Kilo has a functionality that's orchestrate.
例如，Kilo 具有编排功能。
With orchestrate you say "This is what I want to achieve.
通过管弦乐，你可以说“这就是我想要实现的目标。
Split it up into separate jobs." So each of those jobs have small context windows.
把它分成不同的工作。”因此，每个作业都有较小的上下文窗口。
Because small context windows means it's cheaper to run, it's faster to run, but most importantly, it's not going to lose half of its context because it's kind of getting to the maximum context window that's effective.
因为小的上下文窗口意味着运行成本更低，运行速度更快，但最重要的是，它不会丢失一半的上下文，因为它可以达到有效的最大上下文窗口。
\[44:05\] But in the coming weeks we'll ship something where those different agents are now able to work in parallel.
[44:05] 但在接下来的几周内，我们将发布一些东西，让这些不同的代理现在能够并行工作。
And you can do a runoff, especially if you're using these free models.
您可以进行决选，尤其是当您使用这些免费模型时。
You might as well have two models work, and then see which one has a better result.
您不妨让两个模型一起工作，然后看看哪个模型的结果更好。
So I think we're going from you have one working directory today, to in the future you have multiple tasks running in parallel, and each of those tasks is running multiple types of agents, because it's hard to predict upfront which agent will be the best in any given thing.
因此，我认为我们将从今天的一个工作目录，到将来并行运行的多个任务，并且每个任务都运行多种类型的代理，因为很难预先预测哪个代理在任何给定的事情中是最好的。
**Jerod Santo:** Right.
**杰罗德·桑托：** 对。
That sounds cool.
听起来很酷。
It also sounds expensive.
听起来也很贵。
I suppose commodity pricing just keeps going down...
我认为大宗商品价格会持续下降......
Is that the approach here, just innovation and investment brings down the price of agentic coding?
这就是这里的方法吗，仅仅是创新和投资就降低了代理编码的价格吗？
**Sid Sijbrandij:** If you go to Kilo.ai and you look at our homepage, we see the 10 most popular models for Kilo.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 如果您访问 Kilo.ai 并查看我们的主页，我们会看到 Kilo 的 10 个最受欢迎的模型。
I tried to count them this morning, and I think eight out of 10 offer free usage today.
今天早上我试着数了数，我认为十分之八的今天提供免费使用。
So that's a way to afford it.
所以这是一种负担得起的方式。
**Jerod Santo:** I've been told that plenty of times in my life, and then eventually there's a catch somewhere, somehow...
**杰罗德·桑托：** 我一生中很多次都被告知，但最终不知何故在某个地方出现了问题......
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Well, it might be that this whole thing ends at some point, where these models --
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 好吧，整个事情可能会在某个时刻结束，这些模型——
**Sid Sijbrandij:** But what we've seen over time - this has been going on for half a year now, and there's models that kind of launch for free, and at some point they become paid.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 但我们随着时间的推移所看到的 - 这种情况已经持续了半年，有些模型是免费推出的，但在某些时候它们会付费。
But the rate at which free models are launching is faster than the rate at which they're getting deprecated.
但免费模型的推出速度比它们被弃用的速度要快。
So there's now more free models on the market than there were half a year ago.
所以现在市场上的免费模型比半年前要多。
**Jerod Santo:** That's interesting.
**杰罗德·桑托：** 这很有趣。
Eventually, you would think you'd have to make some money somewhere, you know?
最终，你会认为你必须在某个地方赚钱，你知道吗？
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Yeah.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 是的。
Maybe this is like when VC money was plentiful, and the Ubers were really affordable...
也许这就像风投资金充裕的时候，Uber 真的很便宜......
VC dollars are plentiful, and the leading labs have free models.
风险投资资金充足，领先的实验室有免费模型。
**Jerod Santo:** I think that's a legit strategy.
**Jerod Santo：** 我认为这是一个合法的策略。
The challenge with it is over time I think you do become hooked, you know?
随着时间的推移，它的挑战是我想你确实会上瘾，你知道吗？
It's like drug dealers, the first one's always free.
就像毒贩一样，第一个总是免费的。
Now, in this case maybe you get a lot for free.
现在，在这种情况下，也许你可以免费获得很多东西。
But eventually it's like "I don't know how to write software any other way", three years from now, and that's when they turn on the old money-making machine and now you're just subjected to renting your life away.
但最终，三年后，“我不知道如何以其他方式编写软件”，那时他们就打开了旧的赚钱机器，而现在你只能忍受出租自己的生活。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Yeah, I think what you're hinting at is that the cost will go up.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 是的，我认为您所暗示的是成本将会上升。
I think the cost will go up, not so much because the same quality model will get more expensive...
我认为成本会上升，但不会上升太多，因为相同质量的型号会变得更贵......
The same quality model gets 10 times cheaper year over year.
同样质量的型号同比便宜 10 倍。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** But what we've seen is that the price of a frontier model per token has kind of held steady.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 但我们看到的是，每个代币的前沿模型的价格一直保持稳定。
And every time we think it's going down, there's GPT 5.2...
每当我们认为它会下降时，GPT 5.2 就会出现......
What is it?
它是什么？
Thinking or Pro, the really expensive one.
Thinking还是Pro，确实很贵。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** And so that's holding steady.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 因此，这一情况保持稳定。
But the amount of tokens you can burn as a human - that is shooting through the roof...
但作为一个人，你可以燃烧的代币数量——那是冲破屋顶的……
**Jerod Santo:** Well, even with my only one agent -- I'm only doing one agent.
**杰罗德·桑托：** 好吧，即使我只有一名经纪人——我也只做一名经纪人。
I can burn some tokens.
我可以烧掉一些代币。
I imagine if I had six agents going - I mean, that's just 6x my token ability.
我想象如果我有六名特工——我的意思是，那只是我象征性能力的六倍。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Exactly.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 没错。
And the future we're going to live in is not one where you have like a $20 subscription a month.
我们将要生活的未来不再是每月 20 美元的订阅费。
I think humans are going to burn $10,000 in tokens, maybe $100,000 in tokens per human.
我认为人类将燃烧 10,000 美元的代币，也许每人燃烧 100,000 美元的代币。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** And they'll be 100 times more effective than the humans of yesterday.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 他们的效率将比昨天的人类高 100 倍。
**Jerod Santo:** Right.
**杰罗德·桑托：** 对。
It'll be worth it, because one human plus all that is more effective than however many humans would cost you that $10,000.
这是值得的，因为一个人加上所有这些都比花费你 10,000 美元的多人更有效。
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[48:07\] "Doing what?" I guess is the question.
**Adam Stacoviak：** \[48:07\]“做什么？”我想这就是问题所在。
Is it just coding?
只是编码吗？
Is it just planning --
难道只是计划——
**Jerod Santo:** Starting Sid's next business, man.
**杰罗德·桑托：** 开始 Sid 的下一项业务，伙计。
I mean, this guy's got business coming out of his ears.
我的意思是，这家伙的耳朵里有生意。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Doing everything.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 做所有事情。
Like, every knowledge worker is going to have a collection of agents working for them.
就像，每个知识工作者都会有一组为他们工作的代理。
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah.
**亚当·斯塔科维亚克：** 是的。
It's an interesting thing about how that plays out, though...
不过，事情的发展却很有趣……
It's almost unimaginable to think about -- I couldn't imagine this year from last year, for example.
这几乎是难以想象的——例如，我无法想象今年和去年的情况。
I could, I suppose, but the vantage point, the perspective shifts so quickly and so much.
我想，我可以，但是有利的位置、视角变化得如此之快、如此之大。
For example, I just mentioned Google, and their Flash model...
例如，我刚才提到了 Google，以及他们的 Flash 模型......
That's news as of, I believe, today, in the last 15 hours.
我相信这是今天过去 15 小时内的新闻。
Every day or week we have a new model, a new flip, a new change...
每天或每周我们都会推出新型号、新翻盖、新变化......
And it seems to be like UX is the moat, UX is still being figured out...
看起来用户体验就是护城河，用户体验仍在研究中......
I think Kilo is an example of how you're trying to evolve or think about different UX around agentic usage.
我认为 Kilo 是一个例子，说明你如何尝试围绕代理使用来发展或思考不同的用户体验。
It seems hard to predict where we'll go.
似乎很难预测我们会去哪里。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** It's incredibly hard.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 这非常困难。
And we thought this AGI, where the AI would be as smart as you, is this seminal moment...
我们认为这个 AGI，人工智能将像你一样聪明，是一个开创性的时刻......
And it happened in April.
事情发生在四月份。
It just flew by.
它就这样飞过去了。
We hardly even noticed it.
我们几乎没有注意到它。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Artificial General Intelligence, yes.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 通用人工智能，是的。
My definition - I stole April from Tyler Cowen, which I think is one of the smartest people on Earth...
我的定义是——我从泰勒·考恩（Tyler Cowen）那里偷走了阿普丽尔，我认为他是地球上最聪明的人之一……
**Jerod Santo:** Okay.
**杰罗德·桑托：** 好的。
I must have missed it.
我一定是错过了。
I just don't know how generally -- I guess maybe you're saying because most humans are generally unintelligent.
我只是不知道一般情况如何——我猜你可能是说因为大多数人通常都是不聪明的。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Well, also think about ChatGPT - it might not know more than the expert in a field, but it knows a lot about everything.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 好吧，也想想 ChatGPT - 它可能不会比某个领域的专家了解更多，但它对所有事情都了解很多。
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, I mean, I was having some really interesting conversation with ChatGPT the other day that was very therapeutic...
**Adam Stacoviak：** 是的，我的意思是，前几天我与 ChatGPT 进行了一些非常有趣的对话，非常有治疗作用......
I have been on the code side of things, and that's where I'm comfortable at, with how it knows what to do...
我一直在代码方面，这就是我感到舒服的地方，它如何知道要做什么......
And I guess on the human side where I have a conversation with it, and it's not just a question and an answer, it seems to know such detail about particular things...
我想在人类方面，我与它进行对话，这不仅仅是一个问题和一个答案，它似乎知道特定事物的细节......
And I don't know how it does that, but it was a therapy conversation, essentially.
我不知道它是如何做到这一点的，但这本质上是一次治疗对话。
And it was just uncanny, the response type and the level of care.
反应类型和护理水平真是不可思议。
And it wasn't just how it outputs.
这不仅仅是它的输出方式。
It wasn't just formatting.
这不仅仅是格式化。
It wasn't just user experience.
这不仅仅是用户体验。
It was this depth that I never expected a machine, basically - and potentially even AGI, who the heck knows - to give me back this feedback loop.
正是这种深度，我从来没有期望一台机器，基本上 - 甚至可能是 AGI，谁知道 - 给我反馈这个反馈循环。
I just never...
我只是从来没有...
And I'm steeped in this stuff, right?
我沉迷于这些东西，对吗？
We've been steeped in this stuff for years, and it is just quite literally unbelievable.
我们多年来一直沉浸在这些东西中，这简直令人难以置信。
Like, unbelievable that I can have that kind of conversation.
就像，难以置信我能进行这样的对话。
I'm being vague to a degree, but it was very therapeutic.
我在某种程度上含糊其辞，但这非常有治疗作用。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** It's incredible.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 太不可思议了。
This year it helped us a lot.
今年对我们帮助很大。
I think about how much stuff I had to learn this year...
想想这一年我要学多少东西……
And even yesterday, I was like "I don't really know how a TCRT is different than a CAR-T..." And wow, ChatGPT walked me through it, and all the pluses and minuses.
甚至在昨天，我就想“我真的不知道 TCRT 与 CAR-T 有什么不同……”哇，ChatGPT 向我介绍了它，以及所有的优点和缺点。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** But we're gonna give a talk at Open AI soon, because we did some things that were super-beneficial to us.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 但我们很快就会在 Open AI 上发表演讲，因为我们做了一些对我们超级有益的事情。
We did an RNA test of my cancer, so we know what RNA was going on...
我们对我的癌症进行了 RNA 测试，所以我们知道 RNA 正在发生什么......
And we just sent the spreadsheet to ChatGPT, and what came out of it was really insightful.
我们刚刚将电子表格发送到 ChatGPT，结果非常有洞察力。
**Adam Stacoviak:** Can you be specific in any way?
**Adam Stacoviak：** 您能具体说明一下吗？
...like what blew your mind, I suppose.
...就像让你大吃一惊的事情一样，我想。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** \[51:57\] What you're looking for with RNA is not so much -- you have the genetics, but what's actually happening at the cell level, what's being expressed, and what are potential pathways that are overexpressed and you can target.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** \[51:57\] 你对 RNA 的寻找并不是那么多——你有遗传学，但在细胞水平上实际发生了什么，正在表达什么，以及什么是过度表达且你可以瞄准的潜在途径。
Because I know from the genetic, there's something that sounds like a party drug, but isn't.
因为我从基因上知道，有一种东西听起来像派对毒品，但其实不然。
MDM2 is overexpressed...
MDM2 过度表达...
But I want to see how the thing it acts on, the p53 division, how that's going in my cell.
但我想看看它是如何作用于 p53 分裂的，它在我的细胞中是如何进行的。
And there's better examples here, but I'd have to ask ChatGPT for them.
这里有更好的例子，但我必须向 ChatGPT 询问它们。
I don't want to be distracted while talking with you...
我不想和你说话的时候分心...
**Sid Sijbrandij:** ...but just incredible things.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** ...但只是令人难以置信的事情。
And it's not the end all, be all; like, don't take a treatment without first checking it with a doctor.
这并不是一切的终结，只是一切；比如，在没有先咨询医生的情况下不要接受治疗。
But just if you have to get smart about a subject in a year, what an amazing blessing it is.
但如果你必须在一年内掌握一门学科，那是多么令人惊奇的祝福啊。
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah.
**亚当·斯塔科维亚克：** 是的。
It can connect dots.
它可以连接点。
And the dot connecting is across the board of all sorts of different disciplines and domains.
这种点连接遍及各种不同的学科和领域。
That's why I said polymath.
这就是为什么我说博学多才。
That's probably not even a great example...
这可能不是一个很好的例子......
It's like uber, ultimate, ultra thing polymath, I don't know.
这就像超级、终极、超博学的东西，我不知道。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** No, polymath is great.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 不，博学者很棒。
And that's also the big benefit, right?
这也是最大的好处，对吧？
We deal with -- I've talked to hundreds of specialists this year, but when you start talking to people, who are extremely narrow, because they're like the expert in the world in one specific thing...
我们今年与数百名专家进行了交谈，但是当你开始与那些非常狭隘的人交谈时，因为他们就像世界上某一特定事物的专家......
It's really hard to do the integration.
整合确实很难。
You end up in these meetings with eight people, and they're incredibly expensive and hard to organize.
你最终会和八个人一起参加这些会议，而且会议成本高昂且难以组织。
And something like ChatGPT, which is very knowledgeable about everything, is incredible for integrating the knowledge and giving you directions to go in.
像 ChatGPT 这样的东西，它对所有事情都非常了解，对于整合知识并为你提供进入方向的指导是令人难以置信的。
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, that's where I really -- and I don't want to tangent us by any means, but this is where I get really, really conceptual, I suppose, about where the future might go...
** Adam Stacoviak：** 是的，这就是我真正的地方 - 我不想以任何方式偏离我们，但这就是我真正非常概念化的地方，我想，关于未来可能走向何方......
Because we need -- I think at least, even in this moment, we need humans to go super-deep and super-thoughtful into a very specific domain.
因为我们需要——我认为至少，即使在此时此刻，我们也需要人类对一个非常具体的领域进行超深入和超深思熟虑。
Like you had mentioned, you have to have eight humans in a room, hard to organize.
就像你提到的，一个房间里必须有八个人，很难组织。
But we need those kind of folks to think about the long-term future of humanity, and not so much in this way I'm saying it, but like feed this algorithm, this LLM, this model its knowledge; not to replace them, but to augment how fast we can iterate through a problem set that requires eight humans, and a polymath that sits above those folks to go so deep on a subject that's just basically impossible for eight collected minds to do in one briefing room.
但我们需要这样的人来思考人类的长远未来，我并不是以这种方式这么说，而是像为这个算法、这个法学硕士、这个模型提供知识；不是为了取代他们，而是为了提高我们迭代解决问题集的速度，这需要八个人，以及一个位于这些人之上的博学者，才能深入研究一个主题，这对于八个人在一个简报室里基本上不可能完成。
It's just -- humans don't work that way.
只是——人类不是这样工作的。
We don't share that way, even interpersonally...
我们不以这种方式分享，甚至在人际交往中......
But a machine or an AI that's designed to do that can for us.
但被设计来做到这一点的机器或人工智能可以为我们服务。
And that's really where I -- it's kind of like a headspace kind of thing, but that's where I map to, is like you've got to have these super-deep thinkers with this deep knowledge.
这确实是我的想法——有点像顶空之类的东西，但这就是我所映射的地方，就像你必须拥有这些具有深厚知识的超深刻思想家。
And they're obviously going to be human, because that's what we've been as a race, to enable this AI to think so deeply and so vastly as a polymath would, and connect dots that we just wouldn't normally connect as humans.
他们显然将成为人类，因为这就是我们作为一个种族一直以来的样子，让人工智能能够像博学的人一样深入、广泛地思考，并连接我们通常不会像人类那样连接的点。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Yeah, as I was saying, if I've been able to look further, it's because I stand on the shoulder of giants.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 是的，正如我所说，如果我能够看得更远，那是因为我站在巨人的肩膀上。
And in a very narrow field, some people are able to read all the relevant publications, and to keep up with that.
在一个非常狭窄的领域，有些人能够阅读所有相关的出版物，并跟上。
But it's incredibly hard work.
但这是非常艰苦的工作。
And now with these AI things, you suddenly have a thought partner that not just read everything in the field you're in, but in all other fields.
现在有了这些人工智能，你突然有了一个思想伙伴，他不仅阅读你所在领域的所有内容，而且阅读所有其他领域的内容。
So you're not forming these people standing on top of each other in one discipline...
所以你不会让这些人在一个学科中相互竞争......
As far as I can see, every discipline you're up to date on the latest knowledge.
据我所知，每个学科你都了解最新的知识。
That is just incredible.
这太不可思议了。
It allows you to run around, where before if you moved outside of your field, the whole thing fell down.
它可以让你到处跑，而以前如果你移出你的领域，整个东西就会倒塌。
And now you're just able to combine disciplines like never before.
现在您能够以前所未有的方式结合学科。
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, it truly is amazing where it stands today, and also where it's headed, which none of us can really know, but we can see that trajectory moving us forward.
**杰罗德·桑托：**是的，它今天所处的位置确实令人惊叹，而且它的发展方向也是如此，我们谁都无法真正知道，但我们可以看到推动我们前进的轨迹。
**Jerod Santo:** You mentioned $10,000 a month, something like this, with a human and then some agents doing their thing in the future.
**Jerod Santo：** 你提到每月 10,000 美元，类似这样的事情，未来会有一个人，然后一些特工来做他们的事情。
I just saw a post today about Cursor...
今天刚看到一篇关于游标的帖子...
Someone was paying $1,400 a month for Cursor, and someone was saying that's ridiculous, and then the other person saying it's worth it, etc, etc. We can have these kind of battles...
有人每月为 Cursor 支付 1,400 美元，有人说这很荒谬，然后另一个人说这是值得的，等等，等等。我们可以进行这样的战斗......
But it made me think back to Kilo, because I did see on your homepage you're kind of trying to attract Cursor customers.
但这让我回想起 Kilo，因为我确实在你的主页上看到你在试图吸引 Cursor 客户。
I think there's even a billboard somewhere in the Valley, calling all Cursors over to Kilo.
我想在山谷的某个地方甚至有一个广告牌，召唤所有游标到基洛。
Can you explain the angle, the relationship?
你能解释一下这个角度、关系吗？
I'm sure we have plenty of Cursor users listening to the pod who are very familiar with that particular tool?
我确信我们有很多 Cursor 用户正在收听 pod，他们非常熟悉该特定工具？
...and maybe use that as a way to explain what Kilo looks like and how it works and all that.
...也许可以用它来解释 Kilo 的外观以及它的工作原理等等。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Cursor is always a little bit vague about like "What is list price?
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 光标总是有点模糊，比如“标价是多少？
How much do you pay?", and they make significant changes over time.
你付多少钱？”，并且随着时间的推移，他们会做出重大改变。
With Kilo, we pride ourselves on -- you can use over 500 different models, including a ton of like stealth ones and free ones.
借助 Kilo，我们感到自豪——您可以使用 500 多种不同的模型，其中包括大量类似的隐形模型和免费模型。
Also, if you're going to pay for a model, you pay list price.
此外，如果您要购买模型，则需要支付标价。
We charge exactly what the provider lists as a price, and so you know exactly what you're getting for your dollar.
我们严格按照提供商列出的价格收取费用，因此您可以准确地知道您花的钱能得到什么。
And I think as people start kind of consuming these AI tokens more and more, that is the way to go.
我认为，随着人们开始越来越多地消费这些人工智能代币，这就是要走的路。
Instead of like a subscription where it's a fixed amount, but if you go over, there's a charge, which is probably higher than the list price, but it's hard to exactly know...
不像订阅那样是固定金额的，但如果你超过了，就会产生费用，这可能会高于标价，但很难确切知道......
We think a great mix of free models for the problems where you can use those, plus paid models at exactly list price, without any commission or overcharge is a compelling proposition.
我们认为，针对您可以使用的问题的免费模型的完美组合，加上完全标价的付费模型，无需任何佣金或超额收费，是一个令人信服的主张。
**Jerod Santo:** And so Kilo uses this orchestrator itself in order to pick models, in addition to orchestrating your own tasks based on complexity and the particular needs?
**Jerod Santo：** 那么 Kilo 除了根据复杂性和特定需求编排您自己的任务之外，还使用这个编排器本身来选择模型？
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Right now, people are still selecting their own models in Kilo.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 现在，人们仍在基洛选择自己的车型。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** It's not trivial to select the best model, and people also have their own preferences.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 选择最佳模型并不简单，人们也有自己的偏好。
And what people especially don't want that choose Kilo - they don't want the model to switch up on them.
人们特别不希望选择 Kilo - 他们不希望模型在他们身上打开。
They don't want auto model, where you don't really know what it did.
他们不想要汽车模型，因为你并不真正知道它做了什么。
And they also want to be sure that they're using the exact same thing the whole time.
他们还想确保自己始终使用完全相同的东西。
So if I say I want that, I want exact that, with the exact context window.
因此，如果我说我想要那个，我想要确切的那个，以及确切的上下文窗口。
Because it's very frustrating if you're randomly using another model, or somehow the context window is half of what you're used to.
因为如果你随机使用另一个模型，或者上下文窗口是你习惯的一半，那会非常令人沮丧。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** So I think humans are really good at selecting the right model for the right task, but you don't want the software to change it up on them, unless they give you permission, and then still, you want to know what exactly was used.
**Sid Sijbrandij：**所以我认为人类真的很擅长为正确的任务选择正确的模型，但你不希望软件对他们进行更改，除非他们给予你许可，然后你仍然想知道到底使用了什么。
**Adam Stacoviak:** That could be configuration in a way, right?
**Adam Stacoviak：** 这可能是某种方式的配置，对吧？
You can automate that selection through configuration.
您可以通过配置自动进行该选择。
Obviously, we want convention over configuration in a lot of cases, but that's a way where you can say "Well, when you do these kind of tasks for me, I'm cool with you being on the Flash model", for example, or on the Haiku model, where it's faster, more iterative planning, whatever...
显然，在很多情况下我们希望约定优于配置，但通过这种方式，您可以说“好吧，当您为我执行此类任务时，我对您使用 Flash 模型很满意”，例如，或者在 Haiku 模型上，它更快，更具迭代规划，无论如何......
But when we're planning, we're going to go deep, and we're looking at a JIRA ticket, or a Linear ticket, or we're looking at a pull request, and we're looking at this, I want the better model, the more reasoned model to examine that for me.
但是当我们在计划时，我们会深入研究，我们会查看 JIRA 票证，或线性票证，或者我们会查看拉取请求，我们会考虑这个，我想要更好的模型，更合理的模型来为我检查它。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** In Kilo you have profiles, and you kind of set your own profile.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 在 Kilo，你有个人资料，并且你可以设置自己的个人资料。
And that's a combination of "I want to use this model, but I also want to include these prompts." You can even share these profiles across your organization.
这是“我想使用这个模型，但我也想包括这些提示”的组合。您甚至可以在整个组织中共享这些配置文件。
So you collectively work together, like "This is a really good agent for upgrading our Java code", or something like that.
所以你们一起工作，比如“这是一个非常好的升级我们的 Java 代码的代理”，或者类似的东西。
**Adam Stacoviak:** Because those are going to change, too.
**Adam Stacoviak：** 因为这些也会改变。
And your mileage may vary, so you may use a particular model and you're a Rust developer, or you may use a different model and you're a Java developer, and you may get better results per your team with a model, and that's something you should probably be able to select from...
您的情况可能会有所不同，因此您可能会使用特定的模型并且您是 Rust 开发人员，或者您可能会使用不同的模型并且您是 Java 开发人员，并且您的团队可能会使用模型获得更好的结果，而这可能是您应该能够选择的...
You're still getting top tier models, but in a config where you can say "Well, I prefer Opus 4.5 versus the latest Gemini", for example.
您仍然可以获得顶级型号，但在配置中您可以说“嗯，与最新的 Gemini 相比，我更喜欢 Opus 4.5”。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Yeah.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 是的。
You're basically creating team members.
您基本上是在创建团队成员。
And just like in a real company, it's helpful to have the same team member.
就像在真正的公司一样，拥有相同的团队成员会很有帮助。
Now, these profiles don't have memory yet.
现在，这些配置文件还没有记忆。
That's something for the future.
这是未来的事情。
But they already have a collection of prompts that are super-helpful for that company, for example in a simple way your style guidelines, or "I tried to upgrade our Java before, and it needed these and these prompts to be effective." So being able to share at least these prompts is super-helpful.
但他们已经有了一系列对该公司非常有帮助的提示，例如以简单的方式提供您的风格指南，或者“我之前尝试升级我们的 Java，它需要这些和这些提示才能有效。”因此，至少能够分享这些提示是非常有帮助的。
**Jerod Santo:** How does Kilo manifest itself to people?
**Jerod Santo：** Kilo 如何向人们展示自己？
What does it look like?
它看起来像什么？
How does it work?
它是如何运作的？
You mentioned it's in all the major editors, so I imagine it's just in the case of a VS Code extension, and there's a Windsurf deal...
你提到它在所有主要编辑器中都有，所以我想这只是在 VS Code 扩展的情况下，并且有一个 Windsurf 交易......
Can you explain kind of the surface area of the product?
您能解释一下产品的表面积吗？
**Sid Sijbrandij:** \[01:04:02.14\] Yeah.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** \[01:04:02.14\] 是的。
So it's all the VS Code-based editors, all the JetBrains editors, it's available.
所以所有基于 VS Code 的编辑器、所有 JetBrains 编辑器都可用。
There's a CLI that you can run anywhere, and then we also allow you to kind of run it in the cloud; Cloud Agents, that's called.
有一个可以在任何地方运行的 CLI，而且我们还允许您在云中运行它；云代理，这就是所谓的。
And then we're soon launching -- it works on mobile already, but we're soon launching a mobile app as well.
然后我们很快就会推出——它已经可以在移动设备上运行，但我们很快也会推出移动应用程序。
**Jerod Santo:** Wow.
**杰罗德·桑托：** 哇。
Explain how that would work.
解释一下这是如何运作的。
I think one of the cool things is if you have a thought, you can just kick off the agent with that.
我认为最酷的事情之一是，如果您有一个想法，您可以用它来启动代理。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Yeah...
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 是的......
Look - you're somewhere; you're not going to go to your desktop.
看——你在某个地方；你不会去你的桌面。
You have an idea.
你有一个主意。
Now you write it in your notes, or whatever you do...
现在你把它写在你的笔记中，或者你所做的任何事情......
Tomorrow you just kick off an agent, and then you can pick up that agent whenever you get behind your notebook again.
明天您只需启动一个代理，然后每当您再次回到笔记本后面时就可以接听该代理。
It's going to be available in JetBrains, in VS Code etc. So all your sessions -- you have a complete overview of your sessions, whatever platform you're on.
它将在 JetBrains、VS Code 等中提供。因此，您的所有会话 - 无论您使用什么平台，您都可以全面了解会话。
And I'm looking forward to also getting kind of a mobile notification when my agents are done, because that's my primary thing.
我也期待在我的代理完成后收到某种移动通知，因为这是我的首要任务。
The agent is done, I need a ping so I can see what it produced.
代理已完成，我需要 ping 才能看到它生成的内容。
**Adam Stacoviak:** This is something that Claude Web - this is what I call it.
**Adam Stacoviak：** 这是 Claude Web 的东西 - 这就是我所说的。
It's just claude.ai, but it's not Claude Code, it's Claude Web.
这只是 claude.ai，但它不是 Claude Code，而是 Claude Web。
They've just enabled you to connect a repo on GitHub.
他们刚刚让您能够连接 GitHub 上的存储库。
And I think this is like early days of this feature.
我认为这就像这个功能的早期阶段。
And I didn't really have a repo to connect it to to think about, so I was like "I just want to do it in an isolated area", where there's no damage.
而且我并没有真正有一个存储库可以连接它来思考，所以我就像“我只想在一个孤立的区域做这件事”，那里没有损坏。
I can't go write code accidentally, or send a pull request, or do something weird.
我不能意外地编写代码，或发送拉取请求，或做一些奇怪的事情。
And I connected to a brand new empty repo, and I just kind of one-shotted in a way this idea that was really just a basic Go CLI.
我连接到了一个全新的空存储库，我只是一次性地实现了这个想法，实际上只是一个基本的 Go CLI。
And in this case, it was kind of a coding session, but I was just trying to thought-experiment, "Okay, if you have this mobile interface or this web interface, that is not a coding environment at all, it's not Claude Code in the terminal, it doesn't have terminal functions, it doesn't have your system or things like that that you can use to write a Python script and run it kind of thing..." I suppose it does in its own virtual environments, but I was like "How does this work, where you cannot be in any sort of way an IDE or a code editor", and be "a developer", or a builder, or someone who's thinking about software, and planning it, but then it's like "Hang on, I'll just go ahead and write this for you and commit it back to this repository."
在这种情况下，这是一次编码会话，但我只是想进行思想实验，“好吧，如果你有这个移动界面或这个 Web 界面，那根本不是一个编码环境，它不是终端中的 Claude Code，它没有终端功能，它没有你的系统或类似的东西，你可以用来编写 Python 脚本并运行它之类的东西......”我想它在自己的虚拟环境中做到了，但我想“这怎么办？”在工作中，你不能以任何方式成为 IDE 或代码编辑器”，也不能成为“开发人员”、构建者或正在思考软件并进行规划的人，但随后就好像“等一下，我会继续为您编写此内容并将其提交回此存储库。”
I'm like "What?!
我就像“什么？！
Okay...
好吧...
Do it." That's kind of a cool world.
做吧。”这真是一个很酷的世界。
Is that a version of what you're doing with Kilo in the mobile app?
这是您在移动应用程序中使用 Kilo 所做的事情的一个版本吗？
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Yeah, for sure.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 是的，当然。
And that's available on our website, too.
这也可以在我们的网站上找到。
It's called App Builder, and it's more of the Replit experience, where you just prompt what you want, and it starts coding that.
它被称为 App Builder，它更像是 Replit 体验，您只需提示您想要什么，它就会开始编码。
And because we have these cloud agents, which - really the backend of that are CloudFlare containers...
因为我们有这些云代理，它们的后端实际上是 CloudFlare 容器......
Because we have that, we can also do code reviews.
因为我们有这个，所以我们还可以进行代码审查。
So as soon as you connect your GitHub or your GitLab, you can just say "Hey, from now on, all the code that was written, automatically kick off a review for that as well." And you can already configure Kilo to focus on certain aspects, be less strict, more strict etc.
因此，一旦你连接了 GitHub 或 GitLab，你就可以说“嘿，从现在开始，所有编写的代码也会自动启动审查”。您已经可以将 Kilo 配置为专注于某些方面、不太严格、更严格等。
**Adam Stacoviak:** I think that just gives us more of a reason to always be working, in a way...
**Adam Stacoviak：** 我认为这在某种程度上给了我们更多一直工作的理由......
In the new knowledge worker world it's like "Hey, what are you doing over there?" "Well, I'm not scrolling TikTok.
在新的知识工作者世界中，这就像是“嘿，你在那边做什么？” “好吧，我不会滚动 TikTok。
I'm actually writing software right now." "But you're on your mobile device.
我现在实际上正在编写软件。” “但你正在使用移动设备。
That's just an iPhone, right?" "Yup." It's like "No, I'm knee-deep in a problem and I'm fleshing out a spec", or I'm...
那只是一部iPhone，对吧？” “是的。”这就像“不，我陷入了一个问题，我正在充实一个规范”，或者我......
Whatever.
无论如何。
That's kind of wild to think, that from this mobile device we could just be on the subway, or at a birthday party, and we're bored, and...
这样的想法有点疯狂，通过这个移动设备，我们可能只是在地铁上，或者在生日聚会上，我们很无聊，而且......
Working.
工作。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** \[01:07:43.22\] Yeah.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** \[01:07:43.22\] 是的。
I think these are your coworkers.
我认为这些是你的同事。
The most natural way I interact with my coworkers is either a video call, or Slack.
我与同事互动最自然的方式是视频通话或 Slack。
And we're going to launch a Slack integration, hopefully this month, and otherwise next month.
我们将推出 Slack 集成，希望在本月，否则在下个月。
Because that's the way I interact with a coworker, and that's the way I want to interact with an agent, too.
因为这是我与同事互动的方式，也是我希望与代理互动的方式。
So I think collaborating with agents is going to look a little bit less like this big monitor with an IDE on it, and more like Slack on your mobile phone.
所以我认为与代理的合作看起来不太像这个带有 IDE 的大显示器，而更像是手机上的 Slack。
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah.
**亚当·斯塔科维亚克：** 是的。
Think mode.
思考模式。
I said the term earlier, polymath.
我之前说过这个词，博学者。
Would you consider yourself a polymath, Sid?
席德，你认为自己是博学者吗？
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Look, I'm no \[unintelligible 01:08:38.06\] I get by.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 看，我不是\[无法理解的01:08:38.06\]我过得去。
I certainly have a broad set of interests, which helps.
我当然有广泛的兴趣，这很有帮助。
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah.
**亚当·斯塔科维亚克：** 是的。
It sounds like imposter syndrome right there.
听起来就像冒名顶替综合症。
You don't want to call yourself a polymath, but you're a polymath.
你不想称自己为博学者，但你确实是博学者。
**Jerod Santo:** He'll let us say it, but he's not going to say it about himself.
**杰罗德·桑托：** 他会让我们说出来，但他不会说关于他自己的事情。
That's fair.
这很公平。
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah.
**亚当·斯塔科维亚克：** 是的。
Do you have any thoughts...
你有什么想法吗...
I'm thinking kind of, given your history with GitLab, your entire career arc, even through a crisis in your life, you've had the chance to mentor, lead, design the most effective culture, take a company to IPO, live the American dream, have an amazing marriage of 25 years...
我在想，考虑到你在 GitLab 的经历，你的整个职业生涯，即使经历了人生的危机，你也有机会指导、领导、设计最有效的文化，带领公司进行 IPO，实现美国梦，拥有 25 年的美好婚姻……
Congratulations again.
再次恭喜。
Something as simple as the hope for the future of developers - can you weigh in, or do you have any thoughts at all about the...
像对开发人员未来的希望这样简单的事情 - 您可以参与进来，或者您对此有什么想法吗？
I hear this idea of this comeback to -- like, there was a lot of people let go, a lot of junior developers to let go, and here you just have Matt Garman, CEO of AWS, saying that "Junior developers - it's stupid.
我听到这种回归的想法——就像，有很多人被解雇，很多初级开发人员被解雇，而 AWS 首席执行官马特·加曼 (Matt Garman) 说，“初级开发人员——这很愚蠢。
Don't replace them with AI.
不要用人工智能取代它们。
Don't do that." Do you have any outlook or any hope for the future of being a software developer and what that might look like?
不要那样做。”您对成为一名软件开发人员的未来有什么展望或希望吗？这会是什么样子？
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Look, I'm a very lazy person.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 看，我是一个非常懒的人。
I don't like tedious things.
我不喜欢乏味的事情。
And although programming seemed interesting to me, I read some of the code, and I'm like "Standard IO?
尽管编程对我来说很有趣，但我读了一些代码，然后我就想“标准 IO？
I'm not going to write code that way...
我不会那样写代码...
That seems super-boring." So I never got into programming until I saw Ruby.
这看起来超级无聊。”所以在看到 Ruby 之前我从未接触过编程。
And I'm like "Wow, this is beautiful.
我就像“哇，这太漂亮了。
This is the opposite of tedious.
这与乏味相反。
This is beautiful, and it's efficient with my time, and I love this interface." And I think agentic development is another step towards "This is no longer tedious." I could just have an idea in my brain of how something should look, how something should work, and I can just write that down, or even use voice mode in Kilo, and it will get done.
这很漂亮，而且节省了我的时间，我喜欢这个界面。”我认为代理开发是迈向“这不再乏味”的又一步。我可以在我的大脑中有一个想法，知道某样东西应该是什么样子，应该如何工作，然后我可以把它写下来，甚至可以使用 Kilo 中的语音模式，然后它就会完成。
It's amazing.
太棒了。
It's never been a better time to create software, because we can do so much more, so much quicker.
现在是创建软件的最佳时机，因为我们可以做得更多、更快。
And it doesn't have to take you 10 years anymore.
而且它不再需要花费你 10 年的时间。
You don't have to study computer science.
您不必学习计算机科学。
You don't have to solve these LeetCode problems anymore.
你不必再解决这些 LeetCode 问题了。
You can just make it yourself, without any other human helping you.
您可以自己制作，无需任何其他人帮助您。
It's incredible.
太不可思议了。
**Adam Stacoviak:** I agree.
**亚当·斯塔科维亚克：** 我同意。
It is a fun time to be a developer...
作为一名开发人员，这是一个有趣的时光......
And the way I look at it or the way I think about it is like the state of play.
我看待它的方式或我思考它的方式就像比赛的状态。
There's studies on flow, obviously, you can go back to that; it's neuroscience, basically.
显然，有关于心流的研究，你可以回到那个；基本上，这是神经科学。
The state of play is where we learn and have the most fun and it feels like playfulness.
玩耍的状态是我们学习和获得最大乐趣的地方，感觉就像是在玩耍。
It feels fun to do.
感觉做起来很有趣。
Even if it's challenging, arduous in some cases, maybe there's a learning curve, maybe there's a research phase, you've got to get caught up on how an API or CLI works or whatever, you've got to learn things you didn't know beforehand...
即使它在某些情况下具有挑战性、艰巨，也许有一个学习曲线，也许有一个研究阶段，你必须了解 API 或 CLI 的工作原理或其他什么，你必须学习你之前不知道的东西......
Because I think there's a level of learning in all of this; even if the AI knows a lot, I think you should still know just as much as well, or at least try to, or strive to understanding.
因为我认为所有这些都有一定程度的学习；即使人工智能知道很多，我认为你仍然应该知道同样多，或者至少尝试或努力理解。
It's kind of wild to be in that space where it's this state of play.
在这样的环境下，感觉有点疯狂。
It feels like very playful.
感觉非常好玩的样子。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** \[01:11:56.06\] Yeah.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** \[01:11:56.06\] 是的。
For me, a state of flow is where I don't go off and check Hacker News and Reddit on the side, because I'm getting bored, or I have to wait.
对我来说，心流状态是指我不会因为无聊或者不得不等待而去查看黑客新闻和 Reddit。
And I think 2026 will be the year of the parallel agents.
我认为 2026 年将是平行代理的一年。
And it's like the spinning plate act, where you have all these agents up in the air, all these spinning plates, and you continually have to kind of shake one of them to keep them all up in the air.
这就像旋转板表演，所有这些代理都在空中，所有这些旋转板，你必须不断地摇动其中一个以将它们全部保持在空中。
You never have to be bored again or wait for them.
您再也不必感到无聊或等待他们。
I think that new balance will be like balancing on a surfboard, or something like that, where you also have to focus and you don't have to \[unintelligible 01:12:35.22\]
我认为新的平衡就像在冲浪板上保持平衡，或者类似的东西，你也必须集中注意力，而不必\[无法理解的01:12:35.22\]
**Adam Stacoviak:** You mentioned starting 30 companies...
**Adam Stacoviak：** 你提到创办 30 家公司......
I'd imagine you have a lot of opportunities available.
我想你有很多机会。
Do you have a place where people can go?
你们有人们可以去的地方吗？
We have a large audience probably listening, potentially those who are chomping at the bit for either new opportunities, or an opportunity, or their first opportunity, or change, because of just new interests or new things that just are grabbing them...
我们可能有大量的听众在听，可能是那些正在苦苦寻找新机会，或者一个机会，或者他们的第一个机会，或者改变的人，因为新的兴趣或新的事物正在抓住他们......
Are you hiring across these 30 companies?
您正在这 30 家公司中招聘员工吗？
What do you personally need for new talent in your enterprises?
您个人对企业新人才的需求是什么？
**Sid Sijbrandij:** Yeah, if they're listening to this podcast, they'd probably like the tech companies more than the biotech companies.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 是的，如果他们正在听这个播客，他们可能会更喜欢科技公司而不是生物技术公司。
So OpenCore Ventures has a portfolio on their website, and...
OpenCore Ventures 在他们的网站上有一个投资组合，并且......
I think companies always need people who can get things done themselves, and are able to go after something by themselves, and get it done, get it over the finish line.
我认为公司总是需要能够自己完成事情、能够自己追求某件事、完成它、冲过终点线的人。
One of the PostHog founders wrote a great article about "Stop collaboration." Because you now have a team of AIs reporting to you, you shouldn't also be trying to partner up as much with other humans.
PostHog 的一位创始人写了一篇关于“停止协作”的精彩文章。因为你现在有一个人工智能团队向你汇报，所以你不应该尝试与其他人类合作。
You have all the ways to make it happen.
你有一切方法来实现它。
In order to go fast, collaboration should never get in the way from making individual progress.
为了快速前进，协作决不应该妨碍个人进步。
It should never delay trying to get something over the finish line yourself.
永远不要拖延自己冲过终点线的努力。
It's great if people have suggestions.
如果人们有建议那就太好了。
It's great if you ask for feedback, but never stop the progress and never delay because you have to coordinate with someone else.
如果您寻求反馈，那就太好了，但永远不要停止进度，永远不要拖延，因为你必须与其他人协调。
Just use your best judgment, and get it over the finish line.
只要运用你最好的判断力，就能冲过终点线。
And I think for people who are effective by themselves, the world's your oyster.
我认为对于那些靠自己就能发挥作用的人来说，世界就是你的牡蛎。
**Jerod Santo:** Well said.
**杰罗德·桑托：** 说得好。
Anything else, Sid, you want to talk about with us, or make sure we mention about Kilo, or anything else that's on your plate that you want our listeners to know before we let you go?
Sid，您还有什么想和我们讨论的吗？或者确保我们提到 Kilo，或者您在让我们的听众离开之前您想让我们的听众知道的其他事情？
**Sid Sijbrandij:** I think we touched on a lot.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 我认为我们接触了很多。
This was super-fun.
这太有趣了。
Thanks, guys.
谢谢，伙计们。
**Jerod Santo:** It's always fun, man.
**杰罗德·桑托：** 这总是很有趣，伙计。
It's been too long...
已经太久了...
We used to see each other more often.
我们过去经常见面。
I'm glad you're out there doing your thing...
我很高兴你能在外面做你的事情...
You've crossed the chasm, it seems, of your cancer situation.
看来您已经跨越了癌症状况的鸿沟。
Obviously, you're still out there hunting it, so I assume the treatments will continue, the research will continue, and the hunting will continue.
显然，你仍然在那里寻找它，所以我认为治疗将继续，研究将继续，狩猎将继续。
Hopefully, that vaccine or the mRNA treatment you're going to take, 50/50 chance, hopefully it lands on heads, and you can be free from this, but...
希望你要接种的疫苗或 mRNA 治疗，50/50 的机会，希望它能落在头上，你就可以摆脱这种情况，但是……
It seems like you're not just surviving, but also thriving, at least from what we can tell.
看起来你不仅生存下来，而且还在蓬勃发展，至少从我们看来是这样。
**Jerod Santo:** ...with your many businesses and all your interests.
**杰罗德·桑托：** ...与您的许多业务和所有兴趣有关。
So it's pretty cool.
所以这很酷。
**Sid Sijbrandij:** It's been great.
**Sid Sijbrandij：** 太棒了。
And I'll settle for this, as long as I'm having a ton of fun pushing all of this forward.
只要我能从推动这一切前进的过程中获得很多乐趣，我就会满足于此。
And yeah, it was a bit hard to make the time when I was full-time CEO.
是的，当我担任全职首席执行官时，确实有点难熬。
That's a big job at GitLab.
这对 GitLab 来说是一项艰巨的任务。
Now I have a little bit more flexibility in my schedule.
现在我的日程安排有了更多的灵活性。
I hope to be on the show again soon.
我希望很快能再次参加演出。
**Adam Stacoviak:** Absolutely, Sid.
**亚当·斯塔科维亚克：** 当然，席德。
Always welcome back.
随时欢迎回来。
It was good seeing you.
很高兴见到你。
Thank you so much for sharing your story and sharing your time.
非常感谢您分享您的故事并分享您的时间。