the-changelog-bonus-sustainoss-2018
**Jerod Santo:** Alright, we're joined with Allen Gunner Gunn.
**Jerod Santo：** 好的，我们和 Allen Gunner Gunn 一起。
Do we call you Allen, do we call you Gunner?
我们叫你艾伦，我们叫你枪手吗？
What's your favorite?
你最喜欢什么？
**Allen Gunn:** Most folks that I'm not married to call me Gunner.
**艾伦·冈恩：** 我未婚的大多数人都叫我枪手。
My mom and my wife have Allen as a preference, but I'm user-configurable.
我妈妈和我妻子优先选择 Allen，但我是用户可配置的。
**Jerod Santo:** Very good.
**杰罗德·桑托：** 非常好。
Well, Gunner is so fun to say...
嗯，枪手说得真有趣……
I think we'll just stick with that then.
我想我们就坚持下去吧。
**Adam Stacoviak:** I only knew it was Gunner.
**Adam Stacoviak：** 我只知道那是枪手。
I'm sorry.
对不起。
I'm gonna call you Gunner, even if you didn't like it.
我会叫你炮手，即使你不喜欢。
It's sort of like a thing I do...
这有点像我做的一件事......
Right, Jerod?
对吧，杰罗德？
**Jerod Santo:** That's right.
**杰罗德·桑托：** 没错。
Sustain Summit 2018...
2018 年可持续发展峰会...
Gunner, you are the facilitator, you are a core organizer of this; we were at Sustain last year, and we'll have a presence at Sustain this year...
枪手，你是推动者，你是这件事的核心组织者；去年我们参加了 Sustain，今年我们也将参加 Sustain...
I just wanna get the word out for people that this is a thing that's happening, it's an important event.
我只是想让人们知道这是正在发生的事情，这是一个重要的事件。
October 25th, over the pond, this year, in London.
10 月 25 日，池塘上方，今年，伦敦。
First, let's go back to last year, because you were a facilitator.
首先，让我们回到去年，因为你是一名协调人。
I was there, it was a lot of fun...
我当时就在现场，真是太好玩了……
I'll tell you what - I wasn't really expecting what I got.
我告诉你——我并没有真正期待我得到的东西。
Whenever you have kind of a conference or a meetup style event, you think it's gonna be very, very laid back, but you facilitated, and it was very structured and organized, and it was a blast.
每当你举行会议或聚会式的活动时，你都会认为它会非常非常轻松，但你却提供了便利，而且它非常有条理和有组织，而且非常精彩。
Tell us about Sustain 2017 from your angle.
从您的角度告诉我们有关 Sustain 2017 的信息。
**Allen Gunn:** I would agree with you, it was a blast.
**艾伦·冈恩：** 我同意你的观点，这真是太棒了。
It was a great group of people, and I think it benefitted from being timely.
这是一群很棒的人，我认为它的及时性使他们受益匪浅。
I think Sustain is going at a lot of questions that a lot of people are asking, at a lot of levels.
我认为 Sustain 正在解决很多人在很多层面上提出的很多问题。
Sustainability of free and open source software projects has been a perpetual unsolved problem, but as they become more foundational elements of critical infrastructure and also critical human rights technology, questions of "What's gonna help them stick around?" and "What's gonna help them thrive?" have gotten more and more central in a lot of the discussions that we find ourselves in.
自由和开源软件项目的可持续性一直是一个长期未解决的问题，但随着它们成为关键基础设施和关键人权技术的更基本要素，“什么才能帮助它们坚持下去？”的问题出现了。以及“什么能帮助他们茁壮成长？”在我们参与的许多讨论中变得越来越重要。
I think a lot of people there, if I were to frame it this way, were playing for more like...
我想那里的很多人，如果我这样说的话，他们打球的目的更像是……
keeps than you are at an average conference, and they were actually looking for answers, they were actually looking for insights on what sustainability looks like, and I really appreciated working with the other organizers - Open Collective, and Sticker Mule, and everybody else - because I think they apply such a broad interpretation of sustainability in a very healthy way.
他们实际上是在寻找答案，他们实际上是在寻找有关可持续发展的见解，我非常感谢与其他组织者 - Open Collective、Sticker Mule 以及其他所有人 - 的合作，因为我认为他们以非常健康的方式应用了对可持续发展的广泛解释。
It ain't just about the money; it's about the community, it's about the overall health of your individual contributors, it's about the organizational health, no matter what type of organization might be shepherding your open source project.
这不仅仅是钱的问题；这关系到社区，关系到个人贡献者的整体健康状况，关系到组织的健康状况，无论哪种类型的组织可能正在管理您的开源项目。
I just feel like the energy stemmed, in many ways, from both the timeliness and the urgency of the topic.
我只是觉得这种能量在很多方面都源于这个话题的及时性和紧迫性。
**Jerod Santo:** So the pitch for Sustain is it's a one-day event for open source sustainers, the people you've been telling us about.
**Jerod Santo：** 因此，Sustain 的宣传是，这是针对开源支持者（您一直在向我们介绍的人）举办的为期一天的活动。
There's no keynotes, there's no slides, there's no expo halls...
没有主题演讲，没有幻灯片，没有展览厅......
It's not a conference, it's a get-together.
这不是会议，而是聚会。
Tell people what they can expect in terms of what will actually happen, maybe in the context of what happened last year.
告诉人们他们对实际发生的事情的预期，也许是在去年发生的事情的背景下。
Will that change, or will it be very similar?
这会改变吗，还是会非常相似？
What's your perspective?
你的观点是什么？
**Allen Gunn:** Sure.
**艾伦·冈恩：** 当然。
We model these events -- I'm a chronic frequent flier, and we often say that we model agendas to be somewhat like airplane flights.
我们对这些事件进行建模——我是一名长期飞行常客，我们经常说我们对议程建模有点像飞机飞行。
There's a sort of taxing and take-off phase, we try to spend as much of our time at cruising altitude as we can, and then we try to "Bring it in for a landing."
有一个费力和起飞阶段，我们尝试将尽可能多的时间花在巡航高度，然后我们尝试“将其带入着陆”。
What we did last year, first thing out in the morning was really try and explore some foundational topics, and let people sort of move between a bunch of conversations, at their own pace, in their own sequencing, to sort of understand different facets of sustainability, different analyses of sustainability, and just really start to build some shared understanding.
去年我们所做的，早上的第一件事就是真正尝试探索一些基础主题，让人们按照自己的节奏、按照自己的顺序在一系列对话之间移动，以了解可持续发展的不同方面、对可持续发展的不同分析，并真正开始建立一些共同的理解。
\[04:10\] The bulk of the day was spent in participant-driven sessions.
[04:10] 一天的大部分时间都花在参与者驱动的会议上。
What we mean by participant-driven sessions - we ask folks when they register "Hey, what do you actually want to get out of the event?" and we build a soft agenda slate from those topic suggestions, and then at the event we try to get folks in real-time to come up with additional topics that they would like to see addressed.
我们所说的参与者驱动的会议是什么意思 - 我们在人们注册时询问他们“嘿，你实际上想从活动中得到什么？”我们根据这些主题建议建立一个软议程板，然后在活动中我们尝试让人们实时提出他们希望看到解决的其他主题。
We don't use terms like "unconference." Those terms are sadly overused and have taken on less and less meaning over time, as everything has been called an unconference.
我们不使用“不参加会议”之类的术语。遗憾的是，这些术语被过度使用，并且随着时间的推移，其意义越来越小，因为一切都被称为非会议。
What we try to do is say that it is participant-driven, in that we try to source the material from participants, and we prioritize -- if you will indulge the notion that these events are knowledge markets, we're focused on the knowledge consumers, not the knowledge producers.
我们试图做的是，它是参与者驱动的，因为我们试图从参与者那里获取材料，并且我们优先考虑——如果你沉迷于这些活动是知识市场的观念，那么我们关注的是知识消费者，而不是知识生产者。
Many conferences have what I call a "rich get richer" paradigm.
许多会议都有我所说的“富人更富”的范式。
Keynoters keep on keynoting, panelists keep on paneling...
主题演讲者继续进行主题演讲，小组成员继续进行小组讨论......
It's the usual suspects class hierarchy.
这是常见的可疑类层次结构。
What we try to do at these events is identify where the learning needs are, the growth needs, and the folks that have ideas they could use some help building out, and try to resource those conversations.
我们在这些活动中试图做的是确定学习需求、成长需求以及有想法的人可以利用一些帮助来实现，并尝试为这些对话提供资源。
We try to bring loving supply from knowledge supply-side, toward those that are looking for answers around sustainability, around project growth and maintenance and governance.
我们试图将来自知识供应方的关爱提供给那些正在寻找可持续发展、项目增长、维护和治理答案的人。
In doing it that way, we try to setup sessions that are themselves outcome-oriented.
通过这种方式，我们尝试设置本身以结果为导向的会议。
Part of why we say "no slides" is slides are a fail before they start, because they assume the so-called presenter knows what those in the room want to hear...
我们说“没有幻灯片”的部分原因是幻灯片在开始之前就是失败的，因为他们假设所谓的演示者知道房间里的人想听什么......
And once in a while, they might get it right.
有时，他们可能会做对。
But most of the time, they tend to over-share, over-deliver, over-saturate brains.
但大多数时候，他们倾向于过度分享、过度交付、过度饱和大脑。
We try to set up sessions formats that are more transactional and that are more question-driven, where we orient facilitators, we give them some basic ground rules, so that they feel empowered and understanding the plan, but we try to emphasize to them the need to, first off, find out why people came to your session, find out what they really wanna know, and try to center the session focus around what they came for, not what you think they should get.
我们尝试设置更具事务性、更以问题为导向的会议形式，我们为主持人提供一些基本的基本规则，让他们感到被赋予权力并理解计划，但我们试图向他们强调，首先需要找出人们参加你的会议的原因，找出他们真正想知道什么，并尝试将会议重点放在他们来的目的上，而不是你认为他们应该得到的东西上。
That fundamentally transforms participant experience.
这从根本上改变了参与者的体验。
**Adam Stacoviak:** It sounds a lot like really interactive schooling, where the pupil and the teacher sort of come to a similar level, and it's really about what does the students or participants need to get, versus "Here's what I wanna give them.
** Adam Stacoviak：** 这听起来很像真正的互动式学校教育，学生和老师达到了相似的水平，而且它实际上是关于学生或参与者需要得到什么，而不是“这就是我想给他们的东西。
**Allen Gunn:** I would say that is correct.
**艾伦·冈恩：** 我想说这是正确的。
It is one of several different formats.
它是几种不同格式之一。
I would say there's maybe...
我想说也许有...
if you taxonomize it there's four categories of what you've just described as one.
如果你对其进行分类，就会发现你刚才所描述的类别有四类。
There's the interactive school, there's the (we call it) "around the world" or "choose your adventure" learning format, where it's basically the ability to drop in and just listen, so I think that's slightly different...
有互动学校，有（我们称之为）“环游世界”或“选择你的冒险”学习形式，基本上就是旁听并倾听的能力，所以我认为这略有不同......
But the two other formats -- the stuff I've just described is what we often call "first half of event format", where you're building shared language, you're building connections, you're getting people aware who else is in the room...
但另外两种格式——我刚才描述的东西就是我们通常所说的“活动格式的前半部分”，你正在建立共享语言，你正在建立联系，你让人们意识到房间里还有谁......
The two other categories of session formats that we run at these events - one are actual problem-solving sessions.
我们在这些活动中举办的另外两类会议形式——一类是实际的问题解决会议。
Instead of a sort of supply-side knowledge/consumer-side paradigm, we try to get people who are motivated to address a common problem or a common opportunity, try to get them into a session format with some framework that allows them to be generative around both characterizing the problem, but also putting forth one or more ideas for how to move that forward.
我们不是采用一种供应方知识/消费者方范式，而是试图让那些有动力解决共同问题或共同机会的人，尝试让他们进入具有某种框架的会议形式，使他们能够围绕问题的特征进行生成，同时也提出一个或多个关于如何推动这一问题的想法。
What are believable ways to handle burnout?
处理倦怠的可靠方法是什么？
What are believable ways to take payments without selling out, or supporting any particular corporate infrastructure that you don't particularly find yourself in solidarity with?
有哪些可信的方式可以在不出售或支持任何您并不特别支持的特定企业基础设施的情况下接受付款？
That category is the most compelling at these events.
该类别是这些活动中最引人注目的。
Once you've got the shared language, can we build some stuff together?
一旦你们有了共同的语言，我们可以一起构建一些东西吗？
Can we solve some stuff together?
我们可以一起解决一些事情吗？
\[07:48\] In the last format type, which we try to do, even at these one-day events, is what we call "post-event focus sessions." Talk is cheap.
[07:48] 在最后一种格式类型中，即使在这些一日活动中，我们也尝试这样做，这就是我们所说的“活动后焦点会议”。谈话是廉价的。
It's great to be in a room and drink a lot of coffee and meet some good people, but we try to have a set of sessions on the agenda called "Where from here?" that focus on "Are there conversations you would participate in after today?" and if not, that's cool; this was a good, little diversion from your regular reality, good on ya.
能在一个房间里喝很多咖啡并认识一些好人真是太好了，但我们尝试在议程上安排一组名为“从这里出发？”的会议。重点是“今天之后您会参加哪些对话？”如果没有，那也没关系；这是一个很好的、小小的转移你日常生活的方式，对你来说很好。
But if we can set you up to signal other people that you'd like to keep talking about business models, or you'd like to keep talking about community governance, we can see if that next conversation can be made to happen by identifying one person who's committing to actually say "I'll send out a calendar or an email" or "I will announce a time and a place." So it's in trying to put that arc together, from discovery and learning, to generative problem-solving, and then trying to turn it into something other than just a wave that crests on a metaphorical event beach, and lead to supposed big collaboration.
但是，如果我们可以让你向其他人发出信号，表明你想继续谈论商业模式，或者你想继续谈论社区治理，我们就可以通过确定一个真正承诺说“我将发送日历或电子邮件”或“我将宣布时间和地点”的人来看看是否可以进行下一次对话。因此，它试图将从发现和学习到生成性问题解决的弧线整合在一起，然后尝试将其转变为不仅仅是在隐喻事件海滩上达到顶峰的波浪，并导致所谓的大型合作。
At the end of the day, what it's all about is the long-term impact, not just the feel-good of sitting in a room, in rectangular chairs, looking at a bunch of other wonderful, bright, passionate folks.
归根结底，重要的是长期影响，而不仅仅是坐在房间里，坐在长方形椅子上，看着一群其他精彩、聪明、热情的人的感觉。
**Jerod Santo:** I love that so much, the next steps...
**杰罗德·桑托：** 我非常喜欢这一点，接下来的步骤......
Because when you walk away from an event, it's always kind of "Now what?", and like you said, there is that crescendo, there is that -- you get a bit of a buzz of energy at least, or maybe even inspiration to go out and do something afterwards.
因为当你离开一个活动时，总会有一种“现在怎么办？”的感觉，就像你说的，有那种渐强的感觉，有那种——你至少会得到一点能量，甚至可能会受到启发，出去做点什么。
But if that's unorganized, it dissipates pretty quickly.
但如果没有组织，它就会很快消失。
Maybe by the time you get off the plane and get back to your house, that's worn off...
也许当你下飞机回到家时，这种感觉就消失了......
But with actionable next steps that people can team up on and move forward, it seems like you're actually making real progress.
但是，通过人们可以合作并向前迈进的可行的后续步骤，您似乎确实取得了真正的进展。
Now, I know last year one of the big things that came out as a result or as an output of this event was a report put out by the organizers...
现在，我知道去年作为该活动的结果或产出而出现的一件大事是组织者发布的一份报告......
There's a 2017 report on the website, and it kind of summarizes a lot of what's been going on, and a lot of the things that everybody came to...
网站上有一份 2017 年报告，它总结了很多正在发生的事情，以及每个人都关注的很多事情......
What are some other things that people at least rose their hand, or -- I know there were those big pieces of paper, you sign up...
还有哪些其他事情人们至少举手了，或者——我知道有那些大纸片，你签名……
What were some other things people were moving forward with?
人们还在推进哪些其他事情？
You may not know if they did or did not, but just to give an idea of the actionable things that were happening at the end of the day.
您可能不知道他们是否做了或没有，但只是为了了解一天结束时发生的可采取行动的事情。
**Allen Gunn:** Sure.
**艾伦·冈恩：** 当然。
I'm not looking at my list of outcomes, so I'll try and freestyle...
我不会看我的结果列表，所以我会尝试自由泳......
But one that I've found really compelling, and I wouldn't claim this event led to this outcome, but it's something that was discussed at the event, and has continued to enjoy some very strong leadership...
但我发现这确实很引人注目，我不会说这次活动导致了这个结果，但这是活动中讨论的事情，并且继续享有一些非常强大的领导力......
There's a couple of funders - Ford Foundation and Sloan Foundation, that are really thinking holistically about what they call public interest infrastructure.
有几个资助者——福特基金会和斯隆基金会，他们真正全面地思考他们所谓的公共利益基础设施。
Open source software, in their parlance, is a critical component of public interest infrastructure, and they've continued to commission resources and commission research and also to allocate resources to really make sure that we're continuing to have this conversation with a research-driven lens, and really trying to characterize that which is and that which needs to be.
用他们的话说，开源软件是公共利益基础设施的重要组成部分，他们继续委托资源和委托研究，并分配资源，以真正确保我们继续以研究驱动的视角进行对话，并真正尝试描述现状和需要的特征。
I really salute them for the leadership they've shown, both in supporting participation in these meetings - they actually help us buy some plane tickets - but they and their larger program work are driving this dialogue with this research lens and trying to make sure that we don't treat this as a per-codebase, per-GitHub project type of paradigm, but instead think at systems levels around how open source supports critical internet infrastructure, critical public infrastructure and critical community infrastructure.
我真的向他们所表现出的领导力致敬，无论是在支持参加这些会议方面——他们实际上帮助我们购买了一些机票——但他们和他们更大的项目工作正在推动这种研究视角的对话，并试图确保我们不会将其视为每个代码库、每个 GitHub 项目类型的范例，而是在系统层面思考开源如何支持关键的互联网基础设施、关键的公共基础设施和关键的社区基础设施。
Some of the other interesting conversations that have gone forward - I have the privilege of facilitating and organizing a lot of events focused on free and open source, so there are a number of ongoing conversations about sustainability that I think got wind in their sales at that event.
其他一些有趣的对话已经展开——我有幸促进和组织了许多以免费和开源为重点的活动，因此有许多关于可持续发展的持续对话，我认为这些对话在该活动中得到了销售。
Again, I'm not saying they started there, but I think they certainly found springboard moments in there, if you'll indulge me that metaphor.
再说一次，我并不是说他们从那里开始，但我认为他们肯定在那里找到了跳板时刻，如果你允许我用这个比喻的话。
One project that wasn't there, and we're still trying to get them to this year's event - folks like the Reproducible Builds project.
有一个项目不存在，我们仍在努力让他们参加今年的活动 - 像可复制构建项目这样的人。
I don't know if folks are familiar with that...
不知道大家是否熟悉...
I think it's one of the most important free and open source projects going.
我认为这是正在进行的最重要的免费和开源项目之一。
It's a bunch of folks, many of them from the Debian community, that are trying to figure out "How can we build software that we know at a deterministic level is matching the source code we think it came from?" This matters for security, it matters for integrity, it matters for all kinds of code quality and code reliability reasons.
这是一群人，其中许多人来自 Debian 社区，正在试图弄清楚“我们如何构建我们知道在确定性级别上与我们认为它来自的源代码相匹配的软件？”这对于安全性很重要，对于完整性很重要，对于各种代码质量和代码可靠性原因都很重要。
\[11:57\] We've been working close to them over the past year.
[11:57] 在过去的一年里我们一直与他们密切合作。
I think their approaches to sustainability are brilliant, because they are trying to do a multi-faceted model where they earn some money, fundraise some money, and otherwise sort of allow folks to contribute in kind...
我认为他们的可持续发展方法非常出色，因为他们正在尝试建立一个多方面的模式，他们可以赚一些钱，筹款一些钱，或者允许人们做出实物贡献......
And I've seen a lot of communities doing that kind of hybrid sustainability models, and I think a lot of those conversations that happened last year have just given people food for thought, have given people ideas on trying "more than one thing." Because if I were to offer a loving critique of mini free and open source projects, they tend to be a single revenue stream paradigm.
我看到很多社区都在采用这种混合可持续发展模式，我认为去年发生的很多对话都给人们带来了深思熟虑，给了人们尝试“不止一件事”的想法。因为如果我要对迷你免费和开源项目提出热情的批评，它们往往是单一的收入来源范例。
Rare is the free and open source project that really intentionally thinks about a basket of individual donations, large donors, grant funding, earned income...
真正有意识地考虑一揽子个人捐款、大额捐助者、赠款资金、赚取收入……的免费开源项目是很少见的。
And there are other options, depending on your religion, including sponsorship and investment.
根据您的宗教信仰，还有其他选择，包括赞助和投资。
But yeah, I think that's the kind of stuff that came up that I've found very gratifying.
但是，是的，我认为这是我感到非常满意的事情。
I think the other conversations that have been ongoing are the complex dynamics of the ecosystem.
我认为正在进行的其他对话是生态系统的复杂动态。
Some of these free and open source projects are tied to large for-profit corporations, and that is neither a good or a bad thing, it is a complicated thing, because values and priorities do not always align.
其中一些免费和开源项目与大型营利性公司联系在一起，这既不是好事也不是坏事，这是一件复杂的事情，因为价值观和优先事项并不总是一致。
What I find compelling about those dynamics is how resilient having free and open licenses makes that paradigm...
我发现这些动态令人信服的是拥有免费和开放许可证的弹性如何使这种范式......
And that is to say, with free and open source, you are always able to fork or go in a different direction if you are feeling that the way a project is going is not consistent with what you wanna be working on.
也就是说，通过免费和开源，如果您觉得项目的进展方式与您想要的工作不一致，您总是可以分叉或走向不同的方向。
But I think those are problems that we'll continue to discuss.
但我认为这些是我们将继续讨论的问题。
How do we have free and open source projects enjoy the support of large companies, but also maintain autonomy and vitality independent of any one particular source of sustainability?
我们如何让免费开源项目得到大公司的支持，同时又保持独立于任何一种特定的可持续性来源的自主性和活力？
**Adam Stacoviak:** Long-time listeners of The Changelog will know that we did talk to Chris Lamb on Reproducible Builds, early in 2017; this is February 3rd, 2017 in terms of the published date of that show.
**Adam Stacoviak：** 变更日志的长期听众会知道，我们确实在 2017 年初就可重复构建与 Chris Lamb 进行了交谈；就该节目的发布日期而言，这是2017年2月3日。
We'll link that up in the show notes, but...
我们将在演出笔记中链接起来，但是......
Totally agree with you on the multi-revenue stream or sustainable streams of not just funding, but just support of a project.
完全同意您的多收入流或可持续流，不仅仅是资金，而且只是对项目的支持。
All to often do we see the focus simply being on money or the stigma of sustaining open source being just about funds or money, and I believe there's lots of different ways that the community can be involved, whether it's corporate community, enterprise community (which is kind of community) or anyone else getting involved.
我们经常看到焦点仅仅在于金钱，或者维持开源的耻辱只是为了资金或金钱，我相信社区可以通过很多不同的方式参与，无论是企业社区、企业社区（这是一种社区）还是任何其他人参与。
I think it's really important to give maintainers a new lens to see sustaining their projects and their communities, because all too often do we only focus on the money, or only focus on the grants, or only focus on one in particular, where you really need to think about it like a business might think about it, which is "If we only got money from this one client or this one customer and they failed to pay us next month, or their relationship with us changed, where does that leave us?" And it also doesn't allow multiple voices into the community.
我认为给维护者一个新的视角来看待他们的项目和社区的维持非常重要，因为我们常常只关注金钱，或者只关注补助金，或者只关注一个特别的方面，你真的需要像企业那样思考它，那就是“如果我们只从这个客户或这个客户那里得到钱，而他们下个月没有向我们付款，或者他们与我们的关系发生了变化，那我们该怎么办？”而且它也不允许社区中有多种声音。
Having that polyglot thought around where sustaining comes from opens up the door for a much more diverse and much more rich experience when it comes to that community or that project.
当涉及到那个社区或那个项目时，对维持的来源进行多语言思考，为获得更加多样化和更加丰富的体验打开了大门。
**Allen Gunn:** Exactly.
**艾伦·冈恩：** 没错。
And I think, to build on that, another tension that I think bears discussing - and I've certainly lived this many times - there's a tension, to your point, about people sort of having discomfort with money topics...
我认为，在此基础上，我认为值得讨论的另一种紧张局势——我确实经历过很多次——就你的观点而言，存在一种紧张局势，即人们对金钱话题感到有些不适……
There's also an interesting - I call it a false dichotomy, around volunteer contributions versus money flowing in a project.
还有一个有趣的问题——我称之为错误的二分法，围绕志愿者的贡献与项目中的资金流动。
There are what I lovingly call "true believer" projects that don't ever wanna go beyond volunteer labor, because there is magic in the fact that everyone is just contributing with their time and nothing else...
有些我亲切地称之为“真正的信徒”的项目，它们永远不想超越志愿劳动，因为每个人都只是贡献自己的时间而不是其他，这一事实很神奇......
And more power to any project that can roll that way.
并为任何能够以这种方式开展的项目提供更多的力量。
I'm not throwing any shade on projects that are 100% volunteer-led, but I don't believe that's a 100% universal realistic model, and in particular there are people who have to pay rent, and feed family, and so forth...
我并不是对 100% 志愿者主导的项目表示任何怀疑，但我不认为这是一个 100% 普遍的现实模型，特别是有些人必须支付租金、养家糊口等等......
**Allen Gunn:** \[16:01\] So I think the false dichotomy that comes up is "Does introducing financial sustainability into a free and open source community compromise the volunteer magic?", and it's gotta be done right.
**Allen Gunn：** \[16:01\] 所以我认为出现的错误二分法是“将财务可持续性引入自由开源社区是否会损害志愿者的魔力？”，而且必须做得正确。
I've seen it done wrong over the years.
多年来我已经看到它做错了。
I've seen projects that got a big chunk of money and were not thoughtful or intentional about who got it, and that leads to an inside-the-wall/outside-the-wall badness...
我见过一些项目获得了大笔资金，却没有深思熟虑或有意地考虑谁得到了这笔钱，这导致了墙内/墙外的糟糕情况……
But I think done well, you see communities that make the transition elegantly.
但我认为做得好的话，你会看到社区优雅地完成了过渡。
We've been working with OpenStreetMap U.S. (the U.S. version of the OpenStreetMap, global chapter community) and they are just this week announcing their first ever paid executive director, and it's been beautiful to see the way that they have, with their community, told the community this was coming, really worked with the community to understand what was gonna change and what was not gonna change, and have sort of gotten out ahead of that "Wait, hold it - now that somebody's paid, does that change anything about all us volunteer mappers, and are we less valuable and respected?"
我们一直在与 OpenStreetMap U.S.（美国版的 OpenStreetMap，全球分会社区）合作，他们在本周刚刚宣布了他们有史以来第一位受薪执行董事，很高兴看到他们与社区一起告诉社区这一切即将到来，真正与社区合作以了解什么会改变，什么不会改变，并且已经提前摆脱了“等等，等等 - 现在有人付费，这会改变我们所有志愿制图员的情况吗？我们的价值和尊重是否会降低？”
It's been really cool to see it done well as they have, because they have really been an open and transparent board.
看到他们做得这么好真是太酷了，因为他们确实是一个开放透明的董事会。
It's a volunteer-led board of that non-profit.
这是该非营利组织的一个由志愿者领导的董事会。
They've just done a brilliant job of trying to get out ahead of the community's concerns and make sure the community felt part of the process.
他们刚刚做了一项出色的工作，试图超越社区的担忧，并确保社区感受到这一过程的一部分。
In the transition to both hiring paid staff, but also trying to scale fundraising and communications, which is what the new executive director will be asked to do, it's really compelling to see it done well.
在向聘用带薪员工的过渡中，同时努力扩大筹款和沟通规模（这也是新任执行董事将被要求做的事情），看到它做得很好确实令人信服。
**Adam Stacoviak:** There's just certain roles in an organization - since you've said religion a couple of times, you could look at literal churches, or you could look at non-profits or ministry-based non-profits and look at their corporate or organizational structures, and there's some roles that just need to paid placements, simply because they have the expertise, or the experience and the time involved needs to be such that it's either very much part-time, or three-quarters times, or even full-time...
** Adam Stacoviak：** 组织中只有某些角色 - 既然你已经说过几次宗教，你可以看看真正的教会，或者你可以看看非营利组织或基于事工的非营利组织并看看他们的公司或组织结构，有些角色只需要付费安置，仅仅因为他们拥有专业知识，或者经验和所涉及的时间需要是非常兼职的，或者四分之三的时间，甚至是全职...
If that's their sole focus, when we just break down life, we do need to earn an income to move along and to do our life together; those individuals need to be paid somehow, someway, and I like how you said they're preparing their communities for that, so that there's no uprising and everyone can share their feelings about how that impacts the project or the funds available to keep moving forward.
如果这是他们唯一关注的焦点，那么当我们刚刚结束生活时，我们确实需要赚取收入来继续前进并共同度过我们的生活；这些人需要以某种方式获得报酬，我喜欢你所说的他们正在为此做好社区准备，这样就不会发生起义，每个人都可以分享他们对这如何影响项目或可用于继续前进的资金的感受。
**Allen Gunn:** Exactly.
**艾伦·冈恩：** 没错。
And let me give you a +1 on those facets - accountability.
让我在这些方面给你+1——问责制。
I love volunteer projects, but how many times have I seen the compellingly talented tech lead who is volunteering not hit deadlines, not come through on commitments, and their attitude is "Hey, come on, I'm volunteering.
我喜欢志愿者项目，但有多少次我看到才华横溢的技术主管在志愿服务时没有按时完成任务，没有兑现承诺，他们的态度是“嘿，来吧，我在志愿服务。
Back off." And that's legit, you are volunteering, and we need to back off, because you can't force a volunteer to do anything, but I think part of the beauty of paid roles is it puts an accountability structure in place that is pretty universally understood.
退后一步。”这是合法的，你是志愿者，我们需要退后一步，因为你不能强迫志愿者做任何事情，但我认为带薪角色的美妙之处在于它建立了一个普遍理解的问责结构。
They're getting paid to do stuff, per an agreement.
根
**Adam Stacoviak:** Those come with such experience from different -- they transplant knowledge from places...
** Adam Stacoviak：** 这些人有来自不同地方的经验——他们从不同的地方移植知识......
They may have been in industrial manufacturing, and they bring all this expertise of processes and in hierarchy that's just necessary, or whatever might be the case, I'm just spitballing here...
他们可能从事工业制造，他们带来了所有必要的流程和层次结构专业知识，或者无论情况如何，我只是在这里吐痰......
But the point is they've brought some level of -- very similar to the way enterprises seek out, headhunt and find CEOs or CFOs, is because they've got some level of credibility and a discipline that can be used in the organization's need to move forward, and I think a community vetting that person, and even understanding that that person has a full-time role, and how they get paid, how important that might be, and even what that salary might be, or even having some sort of understanding of like not just simply the funds, but like you had said, the accountability back to that person...
但关键是，他们带来了某种程度的——与企业寻找、猎头和寻找首席执行官或首席财务官的方式非常相似，是因为他们有一定程度的可信度和纪律，可以用于组织向前发展的需要，我认为社区会审查这个人，甚至了解这个人有一个全职角色，以及他们如何获得报酬，可能有多重要，甚至薪水可能是多少，甚至有某种理解，比如不仅仅是资金，但就像你所说的，责任归于那个人......
What do they bring?
他们带来了什么？
What do we get from this person being involved?
我们从这个人的参与中得到什么？
And they may have been a player already in the community, and they're just graduating to that role.
他们可能已经是社区中的一员，而且刚刚开始担任这个角色。
It doesn't mean they have to be transplanted from somewhere else.
这并不意味着它们必须从其他地方移植。
**Allen Gunn:** \[20:01\] To build on that, I think the other place where a lot of open source projects have room to grow - and again, I say this with intense respect - I think most open source projects have what I call a single-generational frame of reference, as in "We've got these folks who are on this project.
**Allen Gunn：** \[20:01\] 在此基础上，我认为许多开源项目还有发展空间的另一个地方 - 再次，我怀着强烈的敬意说这一点 - 我认为大多数开源项目都有我所说的单代参考框架，就像“我们有这些参与这个项目的人。
We're gonna code, and code, and code", or whatever verbs are associated (design, design, design; test, test, test; support, support, support).
我们要编码、编码、编码”，或者任何相关的动词（设计、设计、设计；测试、测试、测试；支持、支持、支持）。
And I think that part of what events like Sustain try to help us with is thinking multi-generational.
我认为像“Sustain”这样的活动试图帮助我们思考多代人的问题。
What does it look like for founders to actually peace out of a project, or become advisors, as opposed to primary drivers.
对于创始人来说，真正退出项目或成为顾问而不是主要推动者是什么样子的？
What does it look like, as open source becomes more of a given in our universe?
当开源在我们的宇宙中变得越来越普遍时，它会是什么样子？
There are those who say it's been a give for 30 years, or others that are just finding out about it this week...
有人说这是 30 年来的捐赠，也有人说这周才知道……
But I think the intergenerational/multigenerational view - there's so much value in those conversations, because people don't have enough succession discussions.
但我认为代际/多代观点 - 这些对话非常有价值，因为人们没有足够的继任讨论。
They don't have enough inter-generational governance discussions.
他们没有进行足够的代际治理讨论。
There's certain open source projects of the highest profile, that have recently experienced some turbulence in leadership, and it was interesting to see that in those situations there were well-defined succession paths, so that lieutenants could step up and become interim directors or interim leads.
有一些最引人注目的开源项目最近经历了一些领导层的动荡，有趣的是，在这些情况下有明确的继任路径，以便副手可以站出来成为临时董事或临时领导。
So to me, that's the other half of this - to look beyond a chapter, across multiple chapters of the project's evolution.
所以对我来说，这就是另一半——超越一个章节，跨越项目发展的多个章节。
**Adam Stacoviak:** We see that with languages quite readily.
**Adam Stacoviak：** 我们很容易在语言中看到这一点。
We've got some interesting things happening right now; you've got some backlash in the Linux community, from essentially BDFLs either departing, or having controversy, and just changing leadership.
我们现在正在发生一些有趣的事情； Linux 社区中出现了一些强烈反对，主要是 BDFL 要么离开，要么引起争议，要么只是更换领导层。
You see this lifecycle in languages in particular, in our current landscape of open source, so I think it's interesting to have that perspective, because all too often do we think about now, versus tomorrow, or the next day, or ten years from now.
特别是在语言中，在我们当前的开源环境中，你会看到这种生命周期，所以我认为有这样的观点很有趣，因为我们经常考虑现在，与明天、后天或十年后相比。
Not every project is ten years from now projects or communities, but if necessary, I think it really makes sense to have that kind of lens.
并非每个项目都是十年后的项目或社区，但如果有必要，我认为拥有这种镜头确实很有意义。
Sometimes we're just so focused on today, and surviving, that we forget to plan for the future.
有时，我们过于专注于今天和生存，而忘记了为未来做计划。
**Allen Gunn:** I totally agree.
**艾伦·冈恩：** 我完全同意。
If I were to shout out, I think one of the real leaders of the Sustain community - I would presume to claim her as a member of the community; she can decide whether or not she self-identifies in the same way...
如果我要大声喊出来，我认为 Sustain 社区的真正领导者之一 - 我会认为她是社区的成员；她可以决定是否以同样的方式自我认同......
But if you've seen Nadia Eghbal's report - I think it's called "Roads and Bridges", she's done a real analysis of the infrastructural view of what you were just describing, and tried to take a long-game view of what it looks like moving forward.
但如果你看过 Nadia Eghbal 的报告 - 我认为它被称为“道路和桥梁”，她对你刚才描述的基础设施观点进行了真正的分析，并试图从长远的角度看待未来的发展。
If you haven't seen that report, I just think that is probably some of the most holistic thinking.
如果您还没有看过该报告，我只是认为这可能是一些最全面的想法。
That report now is a couple years old, but it has aged well, because it really tried to look at a systemic view of these projects and what it looks like, to figure out which of them need to be fit for purpose for the long-term, versus which of them are a little bit more ephemeral or modular in their critical in the ecosystem or systems.
这份报告已经有几年了，但它已经过时了，因为它确实试图从系统的角度看待这些项目及其外观，以找出其中哪些项目需要适合长期目标，而哪些项目在生态系统或系统中的关键性方面更加短暂或模块化。
**Jerod Santo:** Well, I'm sitting here, feeling like I'm being teleported back to GitHub headquarters last year, because these are the kinds of conversations that we were having at Sustain, and these are the kind of conversations that we'll continue forward at Sustain 2018.
**Jerod Santo：** 嗯，我坐在这里，感觉就像去年被传送回 GitHub 总部一样，因为这些是我们在 Sustain 上进行的对话，也是我们将在 Sustain 2018 上继续进行的对话。
Let's turn our focus on that event, coming up October 25th.
让我们把注意力转向 10 月 25 日即将举行的活动。
There's tickets available, it's in London...
门票有售，在伦敦...
Gunner, tell us about the switch - we switched continents now; I'm sure that was an intentional move, so tell us about Sustain 2018 upcoming - why it's in London and what people can expect there.
枪手，告诉我们有关切换的事情 - 我们现在切换了大陆；我确信这是一个有意为之的举动，所以请告诉我们有关即将到来的 2018 年 Sustain 的信息 - 为什么它在伦敦举办以及人们在那里可以期待什么。
**Allen Gunn:** I will confess to not a massive amount of strategic thinking around the location.
**艾伦·冈恩：** 我承认我并没有围绕这个地点进行大量的战略思考。
We knew we wanted to get out of the U.S. and try to invite more of the community, and I think we would still like to go further South in future Sustain instantiations...
我们知道我们想要离开美国并尝试邀请更多的社区成员，而且我认为我们仍然希望在未来的维持实例中进一步向南发展......
But London was a wonderful situation, where we had some fine folks that were able to help us out with resources.
但伦敦的情况非常好，我们有一些优秀的人能够为我们提供资源帮助。
We just continue to enjoy a lot of love and support from Google and a number of other event sponsors; I can't say enough nice things about Cat Allman and her leadership over years and years, and all kinds of -- I lose count of how many events that Cat has made possible, and herself realized...
我们继续享受来自 Google 和许多其他活动赞助商的厚爱和支持；对于凯特·奥尔曼（Cat Allman）和她多年来的领导力，以及各种各样的赞美之辞，我无法说得太多——我记不清有多少事情是凯特·奥尔曼（Cat Allman）促成的，而她自己也意识到……
\[24:05\] There was a convergence around and ability to take advantage of some resources being provided in that town.
[24:05] 周围有一个融合，并且有能力利用该镇提供的一些资源。
We are co-situated with the Mozilla Festival, and by that I mean we're not formally linked MozFest.
我们与 Mozilla Festival 位于同一地点，我的意思是我们与 MozFest 没有正式联系。
I'm also a co-organizer of the Mozilla Festival, but we just figured that timing-wise it just made a ton of sense to do it in London, the same week as Mozilla Festival, because a lot of the communities and values and passions of the larger Mozilla Festival week and the Sustain overlap.
我也是 Mozilla Festival 的联合组织者，但我们认为从时间安排上来说，在 Mozilla Festival 的同一周在伦敦举办这一活动非常有意义，因为更大的 Mozilla Festival 周和 Sustain 的许多社区、价值观和热情是重叠的。
So we just felt live it made too much sense...
所以我们只是觉得活着太有意义了......
And there was just a confluence other logistical factors that made it the right place to be.
其他后勤因素的综合作用使其成为正确的地点。
One of the things that we're making clear to our community at this event and moving forward is we welcome the community to tell us where they think we should take this event in the future...
我们在这次活动中向社区明确并向前迈进的一件事是，我们欢迎社区告诉我们他们认为我们将来应该在哪里举办这次活动......
And there's also been talk about federating it.
并且也有关于联合它的讨论。
Do we need to have one big event, or what does it look like to encourage people to organize slightly less resource-intensive local or regional versions of this event...
我们是否需要举办一场大型活动，或者鼓励人们组织资源密集度稍低的本地或区域版本的活动......
But let's just say that we're grateful that London presented itself as a compelling option and a place to have the next round of conversations.
但我们只能说，我们很感激伦敦将自己作为一个令人信服的选择和进行下一轮对话的场所。
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, I had major FOMO as a person who, unfortunately, due to schedule, cannot attend this year.
**杰罗德·桑托：**是的，我有一个重大的“害怕错过”的人，不幸的是，由于日程安排，今年无法参加。
I've always wanted to go to MozFest, and this back-to-back event is the perfect -- two-for-the-price-of-one in terms of the people who are doing heavy travel...
我一直想去 MozFest，对于那些经常旅行的人来说，这次连续举办的活动是完美的——一价两买……
It's just a very good idea.
这是一个非常好的主意。
**Adam Stacoviak:** I'll echo the FOMO, that's all I'll say.
**Adam Stacoviak：** 我会回应 FOMO，这就是我要说的。
I'm super-bummed I can't be there.
我不能去那里真是太沮丧了。
**Allen Gunn:** Dude, I'll send you all kinds of selfies and stuff just to make it feel really poignant.
**艾伦·冈恩：** 伙计，我会向你发送各种自拍照和其他东西，只是为了让你感觉非常心酸。
**Allen Gunn:** You will be there in spirit.
**艾伦·冈恩：** 你会精神饱满地在那里。
I think the voice you all provide is so critical, and I just think the bridge you create with inviting folks like me to share thoughts like this on a podcast - you can claim some credit for some of the energy that's gonna be in that room.
我认为你们所有人提供的声音非常重要，我只是认为你们邀请像我这样的人在播客上分享这样的想法所建立的桥梁——你们可以为那个房间里的一些能量获得一些荣誉。
We're really grateful for you all being that voice, sense-making and guidance within this larger journey around the planet, the event-to-event itinerant reality.
我们非常感谢你们在这个更大的地球之旅、事件与事件的流动现实中发出声音、赋予意义并提供指导。
**Adam Stacoviak:** We appreciate that.
**Adam Stacoviak：** 我们对此表示赞赏。
We are working towards having some presence there.
我们正在努力在那里占有一席之地。
Tim Smith, our senior producer - we're working on those logistics now, literally; right now it's still unknown and questionable, but we think it's gonna work out...
蒂姆·史密斯（Tim Smith），我们的高级制作人 - 我们现在正在致力于这些后勤工作；现在它仍然是未知的和有疑问的，但我们认为它会解决......
So we may still have a presence there, just not Jerod and myself being there...
所以我们可能仍然存在在那里，只是杰罗德和我自己不在那儿......
But Tim is a great proxy for our organization, well-trusted, great person to be there for us in our stead.
但蒂姆是我们组织的优秀代理人，他是一位值得信赖的伟大人物，能够代替我们为我们服务。
At the same time, it's just such an honor to be able to serve the community.
同时，能够为社区服务也是一种荣幸。
We've said this over the years - we like to shine a spotlight in the places in this community, whether it's in the actual software, knee-deep, getting nerdy, or at the macro level, looking at culture and community and how we all interweave...
多年来我们一直这么说——我们喜欢把聚光灯放在这个社区的地方，无论是在实际的软件中，膝盖深，变得书呆子，还是在宏观层面，着眼于文化和社区以及我们如何交织在一起......
Because in the end, it's people.
因为归根结底还是人。
**Adam Stacoviak:** It's Gunner on the other side of that Submit button, it's Adam on the other side of the database, looking at things, or whatever.
**Adam Stacoviak：** 枪手在提交按钮的另一边，亚当在数据库的另一边，正在查看东西，或者其他什么。
So it's people, in the end.
所以说到底，还是人。
It's about relationships, it's a very interpersonal community, and we're just proud to be part of it.
这是关于人际关系的，这是一个非常人际交往的社区，我们很自豪能成为其中的一部分。
**Jerod Santo:** So the details are SustainOSS.org, October 25th in London.
**Jerod Santo：** 详细信息请见 SustainOSS.org，10 月 25 日在伦敦。
There are tickets available.
有门票可以买。
There's free tickets for scholarship situations, so if you have that circumstance, definitely check it out.
奖学金情况下有免费门票，所以如果你有这种情况，一定要检查一下。
Tickets are $100.
门票100美元。
You can also do a pay-it-forward ticket, take a friend with you...
您还可以购买预付票，带上朋友一起...
Check that out.
检查一下。
**Allen Gunn:** Just to encourage folks to be in touch if you can't make it.
**Allen Gunn：** 只是为了鼓励人们在无法到达时保持联系。
There's ways to sign up and be in contact on the website.
有多种方法可以在网站上注册和联系。
We're really trying to raise our game on making this an ongoing dialogue, not just a once-a-year fun party to be at.
我们确实在努力提高我们的游戏水平，使之成为一场持续的对话，而不仅仅是一年一次的有趣聚会。
So if these are topics that resonate with you, please do head over to the SustainOSS site.
因此，如果这些主题引起您的共鸣，请访问 SustainOSS 网站。
There are multiple ways to be in touch - social media channels, there might even be an email address buried somewhere on the About page...
有多种联系方式 - 社交媒体渠道，甚至可能在“关于”页面的某个地方隐藏着一个电子邮件地址......
But get in touch with us, and if you're interested in the topics, we welcome knowing about what you're doing, especially if you're doing things that you think are worth sharing.
但请与我们联系，如果您对这些主题感兴趣，我们欢迎了解您正在做的事情，特别是如果您正在做您认为值得分享的事情。
If you've got approaches to sustainability - and again, we mean that financially, interpersonally, community, governance...
如果你有可持续发展的方法 - 再说一次，我们的意思是财务、人际、社区、治理......
You tell us.
你告诉我们。
We really welcome people that are passionate about sustainability topics to be in touch, whether or not you can join us in London, because this is a global movement; this is a critical part of fueling the ongoing impact that free and open source software has in giving us control of our long-term technology destiny.
我们非常欢迎对可持续发展主题充满热情的人们与我们联系，无论您是否可以在伦敦加入我们，因为这是一项全球性运动；这是推动自由和开源软件持续影响的关键部分，让我们能够掌控我们的长期技术命运。
So if it resonates with you, be in touch; we'd love to keep you in the loop.
因此，如果它引起您的共鸣，请保持联系；我们很乐意让您了解最新情况。
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[28:23\] Excellent.
**亚当·斯塔科维亚克：** \[28:23\] 非常好。
One more plug, because we do have Slack, and there is some community organization behind the scenes here that you can get involved in in real-time...
还有一个插件，因为我们确实有 Slack，而且这里有一些幕后社区组织，您可以实时参与其中......
And forgive me if I'm repeating this, but Changelog.com/community - a huge invitation; everyone is welcome, you are not an impostor.
如果我重复这一点，请原谅我，但是 Changelog.com/community - 一个巨大的邀请；欢迎大家，你不是骗子。
No matter where you're at in your developer path, this is a place to come and call home, but in particular for Sustain, we do have a channel for Sustain, so if you wanna be involved in some of these pre-conversations, or post-conversations, or what you had said before, Gunner, which is the "Where from here?" If you wanna sustain that part of it (to keep the metaphor rolling), then you can.
无论您处于开发者道路上的哪个阶段，这里都是您可以回家的地方，但特别是对于 Sustain，我们确实有一个 Sustain 渠道，因此，如果您想参与其中一些预对话或后对话，或者您之前说过的内容，Gunner，即“从这里到哪里？”如果你想维持这一部分（让比喻继续滚动），那么你可以。
So I would encourage anyone listening to this - we'll put it in the show notes, of course, but Changelog.com/community.
所以我鼓励任何人听这个——当然，我们会把它放在节目笔记中，但要放在 Changelog.com/community 中。
You're invited, you're welcome.
你被邀请了，不客气。
It does not cost you anything, it's free, so just go and do it, and get involved, if that's what is cool for you.
它不需要您花费任何费用，它是免费的，所以只要去做，并参与其中，如果这对您来说很酷的话。
It's good to be home, as we say.
正如我们所说，回家真好。
And thats got dollar sign in front of it and its all caps so it's super accurate.
前面有美元符号并且全部大写，所以它非常准确。
**Jerod Santo:** Nice.
**杰罗德·桑托：** 很好。
Alright, Gunner, thanks so much for the call, and hey, have a great event.
好的，Gunner，非常感谢您的来电，嘿，祝您活动愉快。
We're happy to help support it.
我们很乐意帮助支持它。
**Allen Gunn:** Excellent.
**艾伦·冈恩：** 非常好。
We are grateful for your support, and we look forward to continuing the conversation with you.
我们感谢您的支持，并期待与您继续对话。
Thank you both so much.
非常感谢你们俩。