Tradwives and the manosphere: New cultural scripts for parenting

On this episode of No More Sidewalks , host Abby McCloskey leads a discussion with her guests about how the expectations and responsibilities of motherhood and fatherhood have evolved in this generation.

在《不再人行道》的这一集中，主持人艾比·麦克洛斯基 (Abby McCloskey) 与嘉宾讨论了这一代人对母亲和父亲身份的期望和责任是如何演变的。

Richard Reeves, president of the American Institute for Boys and Men, and Anne-Marie Slaughter, former CEO of New America, join her to explore balancing work and care, changes in family structure, and emerging scripts for parenting ranging from tradwives to the manosphere.

美国男孩和男人协会主席理查德·里夫斯和新美国前首席执行官安妮·玛丽·斯劳特与她一起探讨工作与照料的平衡、家庭结构的变化以及从传统妻子到男性圈子的新兴养育方式。

Together they discuss what can be done at the household and government levels to support parents.

他们一起讨论了在家庭和政府层面可以采取哪些措施来支持父母。

Abby M.

艾比·M。

McCloskey is a columnist for Bloomberg Opinion and the Dallas Morning News .

麦克洛斯基是《彭博社观点》和《达拉斯晨报》的专栏作家。

She is a nonresident fellow in Economic Studies at the Brookings Institution.

她是布鲁金斯学会经济研究的非常驻研究员。

She is founder and principal of McCloskey Policy LLC, a research and consulting firm serving business and political leaders across the country.

她是 McCloskey Policy LLC 的创始人兼负责人，该公司是一家为全国各地的商业和政治领导人提供服务的研究和咨询公司。

Richard V.

理查德·V.

Reeves is the founding president of the American Institute for Boys and Men (AIBM), which he launched in 2023 to address the challenges facing boys and men through evidence-based research.

里夫斯是美国男孩和男性研究所 (AIBM) 的创始主席，该机构于 2023 年成立，旨在通过循证研究解决男孩和男性面临的挑战。

Formerly, Richard was a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, where he previously held the John C.

此前，理查德是布鲁金斯学会的高级研究员，并曾在布鲁金斯学会担任约翰·C·肯尼迪奖的获得者。

and Nancy D.

和南希·D.

Whitehead Chair in Economic Studies.

怀特海德经济研究主席。

His work has appeared in major media outlets including The Atlantic, The Wall Street Journal, and The New York Times.

他的作品曾出现在《大西洋月刊》、《华尔街日报》和《纽约时报》等主要媒体上。

His current research priorities include the impact and importance of fatherhood and gender gaps in education.

他目前的研究重点包括父亲身份的影响和重要性以及教育中的性别差距。

Anne-Marie Slaughter is a senior advisor at New America.

安妮-玛丽·斯劳特 (Anne-Marie Slaughter) 是新美国的高级顾问。

She served as CEO of New America from September 2013 to June 2026.

她于2013年9月至2026年6月担任新美国首席执行官。

She is a globally recognized scholar, policy innovator, and public leader whose career spans academia, government, and civil society.

她是一位全球公认的学者、政策创新者和公共领袖，其职业生涯横跨学术界、政府和民间社会。

She previously served as the Director of Policy Planning for the U.S. State Department, the first woman to hold the position, Dean of the School of Public and International Affairs at Princeton University, and a professor at Harvard Law School, where she helped define the emerging field of international law and international relations.

她曾担任美国国务院政策规划主任（第一位担任该职位的女性）、普林斯顿大学公共与国际事务学院院长以及哈佛法学院教授，​​帮助定义了国际法和国际关系这一新兴领域。

There are new cultural scripts for parenting.

养育子女有新的文化脚本。

On social media, muscled men in the manosphere are encouraging procreation with as many women as possible.

在社交媒体上，男性圈中的肌肉发达的男性鼓励与尽可能多的女性生育。

There’s the glorification of trad wives and recreating a 1950s home.

这里有对传统妻子的颂扬，也有对 20 世纪 50 年代家庭的重建。

There’s a glorification of not having children at all.

根本没有孩子是一种美化。

There are financial pressures and rising costs alongside Pinterest pictures for what a good birthday party looks like if you really love your kid.

如果你真的爱你的孩子，那么除了 Pinterest 图片之外，还有财务压力和不断上涨的成本，让你知道一个美好的生日派对是什么样子的。

Not to mention the new mental burden of digital communications that now come with parenthood, constant messaging and pings.

更不用说数字通信带来的新的精神负担，这些负担现在伴随着父母的身份、不断的消息传递和 ping 信号而出现。

No wonder in 2024 there was a surgeon general advisory warning that 41 percent of parents are so stressed they cannot function.

难怪 2024 年，外科医生总顾问警告说，41% 的父母压力太大，无法正常工作。

But what’s the script for those of us just trying to be a good mom and dad?

但对于我们这些只想成为好爸爸妈妈的人来说，剧本是什么？

We’re so fortunate today to not have one, but two of the most thoughtful people I know to discuss the evolving nature of motherhood and fatherhood and the implications for parenting today.

今天我们很幸运，没有一个，而是两个我所认识的最有思想的人来讨论母亲和父亲身份的演变以及对当今养育子女的影响。

Anne-Marie Slaughter is the incoming dean of the School of Public Policy at the London School of Economics.

安妮-玛丽·斯劳特 (Anne-Marie Slaughter) 是伦敦经济学院公共政策学院的新任院长。

She’s the former CEO of New America and former director of policy planning for the U.S. State Department.

她是新美国公司前首席执行官和美国国务院前政策规划主任。

And her Atlantic article, “Why Women Still Can’t Have It All” in 2012, became one of the most read pieces in the magazine’s history.

2012 年，她在《大西洋月刊》上发表的文章《为什么女性仍不能拥有一切》成为该杂志历史上阅读量最大的文章之一。

Richard Reeves is my former Brookings colleague and the founder of the American Institute for Boys and Men.

理查德·里夫斯是我在布鲁金斯学会的前同事，也是美国男孩和男人研究所的创始人。

His book Of Boys and Men: Why the Modern Male Is Struggling, Why It Matters, and What to Do about It , was hailed as a landmark book by so many, but also including President Obama, The New Yorker , and The Economist .

他的著作《男孩和男人：为什么现代男性正在挣扎，为什么它很重要，以及如何应对它》被许多人誉为里程碑式的书籍，其中包括奥巴马总统、《纽约客》和《经济学人》。

He has an upcoming book on fatherhood.

他即将出版一本关于父亲身份的书。

On the other hand, it can be infinitely more satisfying and safe because you’re bringing in your own income, so if something happens, you’re you’re still self-reliant.

另一方面，它可以无限地更加令人满意和安全，因为你带来了自己的收入，所以如果发生什么事情，你仍然可以自力更生。

I think it is much harder in that the demands of what a good mother is, and a good father, have just steadily ratcheted up in terms of all the things you’re supposed to be providing for your children all the time, and again, juggling that with work and a world that has speeded up to the point that all of us feel like we are stretched way too thin.

我认为这要困难得多，因为对一个好母亲和一个好父亲的要求在你应该一直为你的孩子提供的所有东西方面不断提高，而且还要在工作和一个加速到我们所有人都觉得自己太疲惫的世界之间周旋。

I think also high-income parenting in particular, there’s an infinite array of enrichment activities, and it also all involves driving around, often taking your whole weekend to be a travel parent for sports.

我认为尤其是高收入的养育子女，有无数的丰富活动，而且还都涉及开车四处走动，经常花整个周末作为运动的旅行父母。

We just told our elder son, who wasn’t the greatest pitcher in the world anyway, “No, we can’t do this.” You know, we—but if you want your child to be a real athlete, that’s much harder.

我们只是告诉我们的大儿子，无论如何他都不是世界上最伟大的投手，“不，我们不能这样做。”你知道，我们——但如果你想让你的孩子成为一名真正的运动员，那就困难得多。

So all of that, also the ability to keep tabs on your kids, which we didn’t have, where you can’t just send them out to play.

所以所有这些，还有监视你的孩子的能力，这是我们所没有的，你不能只是让他们出去玩。

The other big piece, I think through media, social media, but we’re just so aware of the dangers to children, which are actually not that great.

另一个重要部分，我认为是通过媒体、社交媒体，但我们非常清楚这对儿童的危险，实际上并没有那么大。

But when you see kidnapped kids, abused kids, you know, we’ve been reading, if you leave your kid outside a store in a stroller while you run in, Child Protective Services can can come for you.

但是，当你看到被绑架的孩子、受虐待的孩子时，你知道，我们一直在读，如果你把孩子放在婴儿车里跑进商店时，儿童保护服务可以来找你。

So the whole send your kids out to play and have them come home for dinner, which I actually think has many advantages, that’s very hard to do.

所以整个就是送孩子出去玩，然后让他们回家吃饭，我其实觉得这样有很多好处，但是很难做到。

But Richard, same question.

但理查德，同样的问题。

When you think of fatherhood today, what, what’s your take?

今天，当您想到父亲身份时，您有何看法？

Easier or harder than it was a generation ago, and and why, just in a few sentences?

比上一代人更容易或更难，为什么，只需几句话？

Because you gotta think about how does this affect the other half, and, you know, Abby wants to do a podcast.

因为你必须考虑这对另一半有何影响，而且，你知道，艾比想做一个播客。

What does that mean for who’s looking after the kid?

这对于谁来照顾孩子意味着什么？

It’s a very different world, and that’s true across the the class spectrum, so I think it’s harder in that sense.

这是一个非常不同的世界，在各个阶层都是如此，所以我认为从这个意义上来说，这更困难。

I think it’s better because we do have those opportunities.

我认为这更好，因为我们确实有这些机会。

Like I I was able to be at home with my kids for a while, but it’s just something that my father could never have done.

就像我一样，我可以在家里和孩子们在一起一段时间，但这只是我父亲永远无法做到的事情。

And already my sons are all in their 20s now, my oldest is actually 30, and they’re in, two of them, pretty serious relationships.

我的儿子们现在都已经 20 多岁了，我最大的儿子实际上已经 30 岁了，他们中的两个人正处于非常认真的关系中。

And, you know, their full expectation is that they’re gonna have to think about two careers, and they’re gonna have to think about this kind of dual earner, dual carer model one way or the other in a way that is, of course, harder.

而且，你知道，他们的全部期望是他们将不得不考虑两种职业，他们将不得不以一种方式或另一种方式来考虑这种双重收入、双重照顾者模式，当然，这种方式更加困难。

And I’ll get to the intensity point in a minute just briefly, but harder in that sense.

我将在一分钟内简短地讨论强度点，但从这个意义上来说会更难。

But also just imagine the opportunity that we all have now to be able to do both.

但也想象一下我们现在拥有的能够做到这两点的机会。

Like, my mom was unable to pursue a career really, and my dad was unable to really be a kinda hands-on dad.

就像，我妈妈无法真正追求事业，而我爸爸也无法真正成为一个亲力亲为的父亲。

But I’ve been able to be both, and so has my wife.

但我能够两者兼顾，我的妻子也是如此。

Now, that is much more complicated.

现在，情况要复杂得多。

And I think that what’s changed is the bit that you were just talking about Anne-Marie, which is this intensity point.

我认为改变的是你刚刚谈论的安妮玛丽，这就是这个强度点。

We’re like you, full ban on travel sports.

我们和你们一样，全面禁止旅行运动。

To be clear, and you can use this clip, travel sports are the work of the devil.

需要明确的是，你可以使用这个剪辑，旅行运动是魔鬼的工作。

And actually private equity funded now, just like, absolutely forbid it.

实际上，现在私募股权投资，就像绝对禁止这样做一样。

And that is a bit of a collective action problem, too, and I think that it’s true that we want our kids to have skills because it’s a more skill-based economy, but you clearly hit diminishing returns at some point.

这也是一个集体行动问题，我认为我们确实希望我们的孩子拥有技能，因为这是一个更加以技能为基础的经济，但在某些时候你显然会遇到回报递减的情况。

But how do you know when that is when all of your neighbors are still doing it?

但你怎么知道什么时候你的所有邻居仍在这样做呢？

And so I liken it a little bit to some of the social media stuff that Jon Haidt and others have been doing, which is there probably is a shared desire to sort of, you know, just ratchet this down a little bit.

所以我把它比作 Jon Haidt 和其他人一直在做的一些社交媒体的事情，这可能是一个共同的愿望，你知道，只是稍微降低一点。

But, like, you don’t want to be the only one doing that when everybody else is still going full ratchet.

但是，当其他人都在全力以赴时，你不想成为唯一一个这样做的人。

I don’t quite know the solution here, but I I’m sure that there is this pent-up demand to just be a bit more chill.

我不太清楚这里的解决方案，但我确信存在这种被压抑的需求，只是需要更加冷静一点。

And frankly, if we’re gonna keep working and caring together, there’s just no way we can do intensity as well.

坦率地说，如果我们要继续一起工作和关怀，我们就不可能再强度那么大。

And I think part of the problem here is that we talk about one-year-olds in the same breath as we talk about 11-year-olds and 16-year-olds, and that’s a a real mistake.

我认为这里的部分问题在于，我们在谈论 11 岁和 16 岁的孩子时同时谈论 1 岁的孩子，这是一个真正的错误。

Like, everything I look at suggests that parents feel really differently about their one-year-old than they do about their 10-year-old.

就像，我所看到的一切都表明，父母对一岁孩子的感觉与对十岁孩子的感觉非常不同。

Right?

正确的？

I think there are some, but I actually think it’s, in some ways, the more positive version of this is because women have so much more economic independence now, that has created much more choice and flexibility within families.

我认为有一些，但我实际上认为，在某些方面，更积极的版本是因为女性现在拥有更多的经济独立，这在家庭中创造了更多的选择和灵活性。

And so I think that it’s more that.

所以我认为还不止于此。

interestingly, there’s just this report, a very recent research report suggesting that actually married women might now actually be getting a slight wage premium, whereas they used to get a wage penalty.

有趣的是，有一份报告，一份最近的研究报告表明，实际上已婚女性现在实际上可能会获得轻微的工资溢价，而她们过去会受到工资处罚。

And one of the suggestions as to why that is, is because they’ve got a higher reservation wage.

至于为什么会这样，其中一个建议是因为他们的保留工资更高。

In other words, like, if there’s two earners, you you don’t have to just take whichever job you can get.

换句话说，如果有两个挣钱的人，你就不必只接受你能找到的工作。

There’s this kind of weird horseshoe thing where actually marriage might help with the gender pay gap.

有一种奇怪的马蹄铁现象，实际上婚姻可能有助于缩小性别工资差距。

But but the broader point is I think it’s mostly a good news story.

但更广泛的一点是，我认为这主要是一个好消息。

Just see it in the labor market now, like, women want to work.

只要看看现在的劳动力市场，就会发现，女性想要工作。

They want economic independence.

他们想要经济独立。

They want fulfilling careers, and they want to be able to be moms, and dads want all those things too now.

她们想要充实的事业，她们想要成为妈妈，而爸爸现在也想要所有这些东西。

But that’s very new to try and do both those things at once, for both of you to do both.

但尝试同时做这两件事是非常新的，因为你们俩都要做。

That’s the challenge.

这就是挑战。

Richard, this is interesting to me on the the father angle because we still have such a large share of single-parent households, and fathers who are not living in the home and yet are increasing the amount of care they’re providing for their kids.

理查德，从父亲的角度来看，这对我来说很有趣，因为我们仍然有很大一部分单亲家庭，以及那些不住在家里但正在增加为孩子提供的照顾的父亲。

Can you help explain that for us?

您能帮我们解释一下吗？

And as you say, that’s because of both moms and dads.

正如你所说，这是因为妈妈和爸爸。

It’s not clear to me that kids need twice as much parenting today as we did in the mid ’80s.

我不清楚今天的孩子们需要的养育是否是 80 年代中期的两倍。

Right?

正确的？

It’s not clear to me at all.

我根本不清楚。

And that’s back to this ratchet thing.

这又回到了棘轮的问题。

But the other thing which your question gets at, is that that’s the average.

但你的问题涉及到的另一件事是，这就是平均值。

And the average is disguising very big distributional differences.

平均值掩盖了巨大的分布差异。

And so we’ve actually just published a piece by Ari Binder, a Census Bureau economist, showing a huge increase in the amount of hours being done by college-educated fathers in particular.

事实上，我们刚刚发表了人口普查局经济学家阿里·宾德 (Ari Binder) 的一篇文章，其中显示，尤其是受过大学教育的父亲的工作时间大幅增加。

So he shows that among college-educated couples, just since the pandemic, we’ve seen the paid work gap shrink by six hours, from 17 hours to 11 hours, and that is almost entirely because dads are doing more unpaid work, this kind of direct parenting.

因此，他表明，在受过大学教育的夫妇中，自大流行以来，我们看到带薪工作差距缩小了 6 小时，从 17 小时缩小到 11 小时，这几乎完全是因为父亲正在做更多的无薪工作，这种直接养育子女。

So even the last few years, we’ve seen this massive shift in the distribution of labor within households where there’s college-educated folks, and they’re the ones who are just racking up the parenting hours on top of their working hours.

因此，即使在过去的几年里，我们也看到家庭中劳动力分配发生了巨大的变化，其中有受过大学教育的人，他们只是在工作时间之外增加养育孩子的时间。

There are lots of families where that is not true, and if you’re a single parent, you actually may want the opportunity to do more parenting.

有很多家庭的情况并非如此，如果您是单亲家长，您实际上可能希望有机会做更多的育儿工作。

So we have to be very careful about this whole intensive parenting kind of argument, which is it’s quite class-based, and we should be careful.

因此，我们必须非常小心这种密集型养育方式的争论，因为它是基于阶级的，我们应该小心。

Like, the the problems of Bethesda, Maryland, where I used to live, and Butler, Tennessee, where I’ve been recently, they are not the same parenting challenges.

就像我曾经居住过的马里兰州贝塞斯达和我最近去过的田纳西州巴特勒所面临的问题一样，它们并不是同样的育儿挑战。

Look, if I could have my way, we would redistribute parenting.

听着，如果我能随心所欲，我们就会重新分配养育子女的权利。

Right?

正确的？

But that’s obviously really hard to do.

但这显然是很难做到的。

And so there is this just massive class gap now in family formation and family form and family structure, and I’m sure we’ll get to this.

因此，现在在家庭形成、家庭形式和家庭结构方面存在着巨大的阶级差距，我相信我们会解决这个问题。

But I think that means that policy should be built around the families as they currently are, rather than the families as they used to be, or maybe the families of the elite, where you do get the sorts of challenges that we’ve mostly been talking about so far, but that’s a very different world.

但我认为这意味着政策应该围绕目前的家庭制定，而不是过去的家庭，或者可能是精英家庭，在精英家庭中，你确实会遇到我们迄今为止一直在谈论的各种挑战，但那是一个非常不同的世界。

Like, my wife and I arguing over the Google Calendar on a Sunday night over whose meeting is more important on Tuesday is not the problem that most Americans have, and I think it’s just important to say they’re both problems.

就像，我和我的妻子在周日晚上就谷歌日历争论谁周二的会议更重要，这并不是大多数美国人面临的问题，我认为重要的是说他们都是问题。

I’m not saying one isn’t a problem, but I’m saying we have to be careful not to overgeneralize them.

我并不是说这不是问题，而是说我们必须小心，不要过度概括它们。

So the time squeeze is real, and it’s much greater in lower income distributions, where, in fact, it’s most tragic because that is exactly where working mothers who may be single mothers, or even if they’re not, do not have time with their children.

因此，时间挤压是真实存在的，而且在收入分配较低的地区更为严重，事实上，这是最悲惨的，因为这正是那些可能是单亲母亲的职业母亲，或者即使不是单亲母亲，也没有时间陪伴孩子的地方。

Often their jobs don’t allow them to be there when kids are awake, and they feel that most keenly.

通常，他们的工作不允许他们在孩子醒着的时候在场，而他们对此的感受最为强烈。

So I I want to emphasize the issues of mothers who are doing more are mothers who can afford to do more.

所以我想强调的问题是，做更多事情的母亲是有能力做更多事情的母亲。

I think, as we said before, that the demands of parenting have ratcheted up.

我认为，正如我们之前所说，养育子女的要求已经提高。

In other words, what being a good mother is.

换句话说，什么是一个好母亲。

My mother’s theory was benign neglect.

我母亲的理论是善意的忽视。

She she really believed that, you know, as long as she was there and she was there to be helpful, and she raised three very successful children.

她真的相信，你知道，只要她在那里，她就在那里提供帮助，并且她养育了三个非常成功的孩子。

But I mean, I can’t even imagine anybody saying that now.

但我的意思是，我什至无法想象现在有人会这么说。

I say that we really believed in self-reliance and letting our kids be on their own, and they’re both artists now, and maybe they spent a lot of time imagining, you know, an imaginary play.

我说我们真的相信自力更生，让我们的孩子独立，他们现在都是艺术家，也许他们花了很多时间想象，你知道，一场想象中的戏剧。

But it’s that sense that, you know, I have to do everything as a mother.

但正是这种感觉，你知道，我必须作为母亲做一切事情。

I have to be there all the time.

我必须一直在那里。

I have to be doing all these extracurricular activities, and I have to to do my job.

我必须做所有这些课外活动，我必须做好我的工作。

But the larger shift, Abby, and it’s really reflected in in this podcast, is that when I wrote my article in 2012, I was writing it from the perspective more of a, as a a worker, a foreign policy expert, than as a mother.

但艾比，更大的转变在这个播客中得到了真正的体现，那就是，当我在 2012 年写文章时，我更多地是从一个工人、外交政策专家的角度来写这篇文章，而不是作为一个母亲。

I was starting where traditional second-wave feminism has started, which is, you know, the most important thing I can do is to be a breadwinner, and I also need to be a mother, and I don’t want to make that trade-off.

我正从传统的第二波女权主义开始的地方开始，也就是说，你知道，我能做的最重要的事情就是成为一个养家糊口的人，我还需要成为一个母亲，我不想做出这种权衡。

And so I was writing about all the changes we need to make in the workplace to allow mothers, and really parents to take care of their kids in the ways, as I documented, kids really needed, whether in crisis or not.

因此，我写的是我们需要在工作场所做出的所有改变，以便让母亲和真正的父母以孩子真正需要的方式照顾孩子，正如我记录的那样，无论是否处于危机之中。

But that you couldn’t just time manage your way out of this problem.

但你不能只靠时间管理来解决这个问题。

That was my point.

这就是我的观点。

You know, you can be the most efficient human being on the face of the earth, if you have a child who suddenly has a set of needs, if you get divorced, if you move.

你知道，如果你有一个突然有一系列需求的孩子，如果你离婚，如果你搬家，你可以成为地球上最有效率的人。

I mean, there are all these things where life throws curve balls at you, and the workplace didn’t allow that.

我的意思是，在所有这些事情中，生活都会向你抛出曲线球，而工作场所不允许这样做。

Ten years on, 12 years on, we are talking about parenting as a national issue, and Richard has played a huge role in that on the male side.

十年过去了，十二年过去了，我们正在将育儿作为一个全国性问题进行讨论，而理查德在男性方面发挥了巨大作用。

But we now have a care movement, and it’s on right and left.

但我们现在有一场关怀运动，而且是在左右两侧。

I’ve spent, since 2015, focusing much more on raising the value of care than on the more traditional points about equal pay for equal work, all of which I think are really important, and I run a workplace that says family first.

自 2015 年以来，我更多地关注提高护理价值，而不是关注同工同酬等更传统的观点，我认为所有这些都非常重要，而且我经营的工作场所将家庭放在第一位。

But that’s been the biggest shift.

但这是最大的转变。

We now focus on care, and care needs, and parenting.

我们现在关注护理、护理需求和养育子女。

But on that care point, I was thinking about it, Anne-Marie, as as you were talking, and Richard, you had mentioned the phrase kind of direct care, and the difference of my mother being in the house making dinner or doing laundry while we’re running around, versus I’m doing a puzzle with my daughter.

但在护理这一点上，我正在考虑这个问题，安妮-玛丽，正如您所说的那样，理查德，您提到了“直接护理”这个词，以及我母亲在家里做饭或洗衣服而我们四处奔波时与我和女儿一起做拼图的区别。

Then we’re doing a drawing session with my son and having this kind of intense parenting.

然后我们会和我的儿子一起画画，并进行这种紧张的养育。

I think, I reflect back to my own childhood, it can create a sense of guilt, of I should be not doing that, and my kids can find something to do.

我想，我回想起自己的童年，它会产生一种内疚感，我不应该这样做，我的孩子们可以找到一些事情做。

But when they run out into the street, into the neighborhood, there are no children outside.

但当他们跑到街上、跑到附近时，却发现外面没有孩子。

Everyone is in their scheduled activities.

每个人都在按计划进行活动。

Everyone’s being carted around to their various sports.

每个人都被推着去参加各种运动。

And so it almost feels like, at some point, I’m sure the switch to intensive parenting was a choice, but now it feels like there’s not really an alternative for your kids because there’s nowhere for them to go unless you as the parent are taking them there or somehow curating a social event.

所以，在某种程度上，我确信转向强化养育是一种选择，但现在感觉你的孩子没有真正的选择，因为他们无处可去，除非你作为父母带他们去那里或以某种方式策划一场社交活动。

So it feels like a bit of a trap.

所以感觉有点像陷阱。

What’s interesting about this is that the the care movement does relate to this question, I think, and, I almost maybe we want to ping this back to kind of Anne-Marie, because I’ve been reading a lot of kind of care ethics feminism recently as part of my my work for fatherhood and Gilligan and Nel Noddings and these people.

有趣的是，我认为，护理运动确实与这个问题有关，而且，我几乎可能想把这个问题追溯到安妮·玛丽，因为我最近读了很多护理伦理女权主义，作为我为父亲、吉利根、内尔·诺丁斯和这些人所做的工作的一部分。

I actually think that what happened was there was this movement which said, “Okay, we need to stop talking about this as feminine.

我实际上认为发生的事情是有一场运动说：“好吧，我们需要停止谈论女性化。

Let’s talk about care.” But then actually feminism moved into this second wave that Anne-Marie talked about, which is like, “You know what?

我们来谈谈护理吧。”但后来实际上女权主义进入了安妮-玛丽谈到的第二波浪潮，这就像，“你知道吗？

We just need to get economic power.”

我们只需要获得经济实力。”

I actually think that might have been the right decision, but I’m interested to see how Anne-Marie reflects on that because it’s almost like until you’d done that, it was always going to be dangerous to talk about the importance of care, especially if it was seen as this kind of feminine activity.

我实际上认为这可能是正确的决定，但我很想看看安妮-玛丽对此有何反映，因为在你这样做之前，谈论护理的重要性总是很危险的，特别是如果它被视为这种女性活动的话。

I now think we’ve got to a point where we have to talk about care, and we have to talk about women and men doing care.

我现在认为我们已经到了必须谈论护理的地步，我们必须谈论从事护理工作的女性和男性。

I don’t think you have to do that androgynously.

我认为你不必雌雄同体地这样做。

Maybe we’ll get to it, but, like, I I want to care.

也许我们会做到这一点，但是，就像，我想关心。

Right?

正确的？

But I’m not sure I care in a feminine way, and I’m not sure that being told that I can be just as good a mom as my wife is a particularly inspiring vision for me.

但我不确定我是否以女性的方式关心，而且我不确定被告知我可以像我的妻子一样成为一个好妈妈对我来说是一个特别鼓舞人心的愿景。

But this is what what some of the feminists ended up doing.

但这就是一些女权主义者最终所做的事情。

Right?

正确的？

Gilligan ended up saying that, “Well, you know, men can mother, too.” I’m like, “Well, thanks.

吉利根最后说道：“好吧，你知道，男人也可以做母亲。”我想，“好吧，谢谢。

Great.

太棒了。

That’s not very exciting.”

这不太令人兴奋。”

But I think now we’re at a stage which Anne-Marie’s career actually captures very well, which is now we do have to get back to these questions of care.

但我认为现在我们正处于安妮-玛丽的职业生涯实际上很好地捕捉到的阶段，现在我们确实必须回到这些护理问题。

But not just care of kids, care of ourselves and care of each other.

但不仅仅是关心孩子，还要关心我们自己和互相关心。

Right?

正确的？

We are not just inputs into the human capital of our future, you know, children, right?

我们不仅仅是对未来人力资本的投入，你知道，孩子们，对吗？

We’re also human beings ourselves who have relationships and needs and marriages too.

我们自己也是人，也有人际关系、需求和婚姻。

And so what I’d like to see is that the discussion of care becoming one that is just not just about childcare, but is just more caring generally.

因此，我希望看到的是，关于护理的讨论不仅仅是关于儿童保育，而是更加普遍的护理。

And that includes myself being able to lie on the sofa on a Saturday morning rather than lug my kid off to some godforsaken soccer field somewhere.

这包括我能够在周六早上躺在沙发上，而不是拖着我的孩子去某个被遗弃的足球场。

And so I agree with you on the holistic vision.

所以我同意你的整体愿景。

But I I wonder if in practice, and even what we see right now in the midst of a moment where there is family policy being promoted on both sides of the aisle, as you you both have rightly pointed out, that it is still the case that the vast majority of workers don’t have access to paid family leave.

但我想知道，在实践中，甚至在我们现在所看到的两党都在提倡家庭政策的时刻，正如你们俩正确指出的那样，绝大多数工人仍然无法享受带薪家庭假。

The vast majority of people who are eligible for childcare subsidies do not receive them from the government.

绝大多数有资格获得儿童保育补贴的人并未从政府获得补贴。

And workplaces who have generous policies on paper may or may not follow through with those in practice, so there’s actually a lot of pressure to not take the full paternity leave or to actually leave at 3:00 to pick up your kid from school because the school day doesn’t align with the workplace.

纸面上有慷慨政策的工作场所可能会也可能不会在实践中贯彻这些政策，因此，如果不休完整的陪产假或实际上在 3:00 下班去接孩子放学，实际上会面临很大的压力，因为上学时间与工作场所不一致。

So, Anne-Marie, on the ground, do you think that workplaces have really taken this mantle on and are becoming more holistic places where you can earn a wage and also feel cared for as a human with your family needs?

那么，安妮-玛丽，您认为工作场所是否真正承担起了这一职责，并且正在变得更加全面，您可以在其中赚取工资，并且还可以感受到作为一个人的家庭需求得到照顾？

I think, though, we need a larger shift in our economic system to take on your, your point, and I I would start by saying, I do think women had to have substantial and ultimately equal earning power.

不过，我认为，我们需要对我们的经济体系进行更大的转变，以接受你的观点，我首先要说的是，我确实认为女性必须拥有实质性的、最终平等的赚钱能力。

My my father, you know, raised me in the ’60s in Virginia, and after my article came out, I said, “Dad, you know, why did you raise me to have a career?” Because my childhood friends were saying, “Our fathers didn’t encourage us.”

你知道，我的父亲在 60 年代在弗吉尼亚抚养我长大，在我的文章发表后，我说：“爸爸，你知道吗，你为什么养育我是为了让我有事业？”因为我儿时的朋友们说：“我们的父亲没有鼓励我们。”

And he said, “Because the 1960s were the age of a dramatic increase in the divorce rate, and I was watching a lot of 50-year-old women, 50 to 60, who had not gone to med school or law school so they could put their husbands through those schools, and their husbands were now leaving them, and they were high and dry.

他说，“因为 20 世纪 60 年代是离婚率急剧上升的年代，我观察到很多 50 岁到 60 岁的女性，她们没有上过医学院或法学院，这样她们就可以让她们的丈夫完成这些学校的学业，而她们的丈夫现在正在离开她们，她们陷入了困境。

And I swore my daughter would never be in that situation.” He then added, “You’ve taken it a little far, dear.”

我发誓我的女儿永远不会遇到这种情况。”然后他补充道：“亲爱的，你有点太过分了。”

But still, when you look at the commanding heights of the economy, you know, and particularly in finance or tech, the two wealthiest areas, we have a long way to go.

但是，当你看到经济的制高点时，你就会知道，特别是在金融或科技这两个最富裕的领域，我们还有很长的路要走。

But the deeper shift, I think, is what women who wanted it all, that whole having it all, it was, Yes, I want to be able to be a breadwinner, and I’m not giving up that extraordinary life satisfaction that being a caregiver gives you.

但我认为，更深层次的转变是那些想要这一切、拥有一切的女性，她们是，是的，我希望能够成为养家糊口的人，而且我不会放弃作为看护者所带来的非凡的生活满足感。

It’s hard.

这很难。

It’s not always fun, but you are needed, and you are valued, and you have a relationship with another, and it can be with a child, a parent, a spouse, a mentee, a student.

这并不总是有趣，但你被需要，你被重视，你与另一个人有关系，可以是与孩子、父母、配偶、受训者、学生。

I mean, these are not just family relationships that gives us such deep satisfaction.

我的意思是，这些不仅仅是家庭关系给我们带来如此深的满足感。

And that then, Abby, goes to your question.

艾比，接下来就是你的问题了。

That’s at the core of, well, wait a minute, we don’t want to monetize that.

这是核心，等等，我们不想将其货币化。

The whole point is these were traditionally labors of love.

重点是，这些传统上都是出于爱的劳动。

That’s correct.

这是正确的。

Nobody in their right mind wants everything in the household to be paid for.

任何头脑正常的人都不希望家里的一切都是由人支付的。

At the same time, there are many care jobs, obviously childcare and eldercare, all of that, but also teaching and coaching and ministering, there are, there’re a whole lot of jobs that depend on human relationships, and all of them are paid much less well than our traditional breadwinner jobs.

与此同时，还有很多护理工作，显然是儿童保育和老人护理，所有这些，还有教学、辅导和施助，还有很多工作依赖于人际关系，而且所有这些工作的薪水都比我们传统的养家糊口的工作低得多。

So I actually think about workplaces and an economy with care at the core.

所以我实际上考虑的是以关怀为核心的工作场所和经济。

In the same way we have competition.

同样，我们也有竞争。

I I think these are both, right?

我想这两者都是吧？

We are very competitive, many of us , and we are very caring, and we care in many different ways.

我们很多人都非常有竞争力，而且我们非常关心他人，我们以多种不同的方式关心他人。

And it’s not just about the care economy.

这不仅仅与护理经济有关。

It’s about making room for care and valuing care in our economy in its many, many different forms.

这是为了在我们的经济中以多种不同形式为护理腾出空间并重视护理。

And Richard, I’m with you.

理查德，我和你在一起。

I’ll close with this.

我将以此结束。

My, my husband said early on, “I will be an equal parent or a lead parent, but I’m doing it my way, not your way.

我的，我的丈夫很早就说过，“我会成为一个平等的父母或一个主要的父母，但我是按照我的方式做的，而不是你的方式。

If you want to micromanage me to death, fine, come home and be the mom.” But I came home one weekend, and I had all these plans, and the kids had to do this, that, and the other, and Andy had decided it was the weekend they were gonna watch all the Marx Brothers movies.

如果你想微观管理死我，好吧，回家当妈妈吧。”但我一个周末回到家，我制定了所有这些计划，孩子们必须做这个、那个、另一个，安迪决定在这个周末他们要观看所有马克思兄弟的电影。

And that’s what they were doing.

这就是他们正在做的事情。

Now, over a lifetime, I guarantee you they think that time was better spent with dad caring than whatever I was going to do.

现在，在我的一生中，我向你保证，他们认为与爸爸一起照顾的时间比我要做的任何事情都更好。

So, you know, men and women do lots of things differently.

所以，你知道，男人和女人做很多事情都是不同的。

Great.

伟大的。

We need to value care across the board.

我们需要全面重视护理。

And she’s like, “What’s happening?” And I said, “Well, they beat me at foosball, and, you know, a promise is a promise.” I, by the way, I had no idea they were gonna beat me.

她说：“发生了什么事？”我说：“好吧，他们在足球比赛中击败了我，而且，你知道，承诺就是承诺。”顺便说一句，我不知道他们会打败我。

They’ve never played better.

他们从来没有打得更好。

But when we talk about vive la difference, I mean, where do we see that any more clear than on social media and on the internet?

但当我们谈论“差异万岁”时，我的意思是，我们在哪里比社交媒体和互联网上更清楚地看到这一点？

And now, not only differences between how mothers and fathers parent, but even within those roles, really very

现在，不仅母亲和父亲的养育方式存在差异，而且即使在这些角色中，也确实存在很大差异

And I think one place where that is spiking among men, Richard, to to stay there, is this manosphere.

我认为，理查德，人们最喜欢留在那里的地方就是这个马诺圈。

And you’ve probably, I don’t know, spent more research time there than I have, but I think from what I’ve read, there’s just an increasing prioritization of men not having said attachments we’ve been talking about, not having said responsibilities.

我不知道，你可能在那里花费了比我更多的研究时间，但我认为从我读到的内容来看，越来越多的男性优先考虑没有说出我们一直在谈论的依恋，没有说出责任。

Actually, to be a man is to be self-fulfilled, both physically, sexually, as a provider, et cetera, that’s really in direct conflict with kind of what you’re, you’re speaking of, of it being kind of a family system of care and work.

事实上，成为一个男人就是要自我实现，无论是在身体上、性方面，还是作为一个养家糊口的人，等等，这确实与你所说的那种家庭护理和工作系统直接冲突。

And so in your research and writing, how much of that do you think is noise that is on weird parts of the internet and can be ignored versus actually a growing potentially cultural script for what it means to be a man and a father in modern America?

因此，在您的研究和写作中，您认为其中有多少是互联网上奇怪部分的噪音，可以被忽略，而不是实际上是一个日益增长的潜在文化脚本，说明现代美国作为一个男人和一个父亲意味着什么？

And what I see is, you know, women’s employment reaching historic highs.

我看到的是，女性的就业率达到了历史最高水平。

Sure, there’s more to do, but huge progress on that.

当然，还有更多工作要做，但已经取得了巨大进展。

As we’ve already discussed, massive increase in the amount of fathering being done by dads within the home.

正如我们已经讨论过的，父亲在家中承担的父亲责任数量大幅增加。

And in working-class families too.

工薪阶层家庭也是如此。

You see the biggest changes in these professional couples, but it’s true of working-class men too.

你会看到这些职业夫妇发生了最大的变化，但工薪阶层的男性也是如此。

Right?

正确的？

So I see more women going into work.

所以我看到越来越多的女性开始工作。

I see more men doing parenting, And that’s been happening for the last five, 10 years.

我看到越来越多的男性在养育孩子，这种情况在过去五年、十年里一直在发生。

Okay.

好的。

So if we’re gonna talk about trad wives and the manosphere, let’s just balance that a little bit by saying…

因此，如果我们要谈论传统妻子和马诺圈，让我们平衡一下……

you know, I say this to young men, ” If you’re holding out for a trad wife, you’re gonna have a very long wait.” Like, have you looked around you at the young women?

你知道，我对年轻人这样说，“如果你坚持要找一个传统的妻子，你将会等待很长时间。”比如，你观察过周围的年轻女性吗？

Sure, sure, you will find a few on TikTok, yes.

当然，当然，你会在 TikTok 上找到一些，是的。

You’re not gonna find any of it in the real world.

你在现实世界中找不到任何这些。

And, and similarly, I think some of the manosphere stuff, doesn’t speak to the aspirations or hopes and realities of what young men currently really want, or what they’re actually doing.

而且，同样，我认为马诺圈的一些东西，并没有说明年轻人目前真正想要什么，或者他们实际上在做什么的愿望、希望和现实。

That said, I think it’s tapping into an anxiety about some of the stuff we’ve already talked about.

也就是说，我认为这引发了人们对我们已经讨论过的一些事情的焦虑。

Like, just how am I supposed to be today?

就像，我今天应该怎么样？

What does success look like?

成功是什么样的？

I think a lot of women, and I’ll speak briefly on that, are like, “Yeah, this fourth second wave thing, this is kind of not working,” right?

我想很多女性，我会简要地谈谈这一点，都会说，“是的，第四次第二波的事情，这有点行不通，”对吧？

You got the woman on the subway looking for a man in finance.

你让那个女人在地铁里寻找金融界的男人。

You know, you’ve got the the the sort of romanticization.

你知道，你已经有了那种浪漫化的感觉。

And I think it’s speaking to this hunger for actually having a more caring and a more chill and just a nicer family life.

我认为这说明了人们对真正拥有更多关怀、更冷静以及更美好家庭生活的渴望。

Right?

正确的？

I think that that’s understandable, and I think people are like, “Okay.”

我认为这是可以理解的，而且我认为人们会说“好吧”。

I think that the manosphere stuff, and in particular, I mean, the reactionary end of it.

我认为马诺圈的东西，特别是，我的意思是，它的反动结局。

Like, I like the dadosphere, right?

就像，我喜欢dadosphere，对吧？

There is also a very, very—

还有一个非常非常——

So it is speaking, though, I think, to this anxiety that kind of a lot of young men have.

不过，我认为，这正是针对许多年轻人所拥有的这种焦虑。

What I find very interesting about it is that fatherhood is completely absent.

我觉得非常有趣的是，父亲身份完全不存在。

In fact, it’s almost, like, anti-paternal, as you just said.

事实上，正如你刚才所说，这几乎是反父权的。

Right?

正确的？

it’s actually about competition, dominance, as you say, sexual conquest.

这实际上是关于竞争、统治，正如你所说的，性征服。

It’s actually about high testosterone.

这实际上与高睾酮水平有关。

Actually, your testosterone level drops a bit after you’ve had a kid.

事实上，生完孩子后，你的睾丸激素水平会有所下降。

You know, you become a different kind of man.

你知道，你变成了一个不同类型的人。

And it’s very interesting to me how the ideology of this kind of new masculinity of the right- is completely devoid of discussions about fatherhood and what it means to be a good dad.

对我来说非常有趣的是，这种新右派男性气质的意识形态完全没有讨论父亲身份以及成为一个好父亲意味着什么。

That is a massive change on the right.

这是右翼的巨大变化。

Used to be that the right was all about being a good dad.

过去，权利就是成为一个好父亲。

Right?

正确的？

And it was a bit different to being a good mom, but it was like a noble thing to be a good dad.

这和做一个好妈妈有点不同，但做一个好爸爸却是一件崇高的事情。

Now that is not there at all.

现在那根本不存在了。

Meanwhile, on the left, there’s this real reluctance to have discussions about sex differences or dads or whatever, for understandable reasons.

与此同时，出于可以理解的原因，左翼人士确实不愿意讨论性别差异或父亲之类的问题。

And so I actually think there’s a bit of a gap here of saying, “Dads are really good.”

所以我实际上认为“爸爸真的很好”这句话有点不恰当。

I’m sorry.

对不起。

If you want a expression of pro-social masculinity at its finest, it is good fathering.

如果你想表达亲社会的男子气概，这是最好的父亲。

And I don’t hear enough of that from either side right now.

我现在没有从任何一方听到足够的信息。

And so thus, is this the pivot to say, Well, I don’t actually even want that at all, and I’m just going to make kind of the role of raising children and being in the home as appealing as it possibly can, which I think is in some ways what the trad wife movement is trying to do.

因此，这是一个关键点，说，好吧，我实际上根本不想要那样，我只是想让抚养孩子和在家的角色尽可能地吸引人，我认为这在某些方面是传统妻子运动试图做的。

Like, do you see this as a reaction against a society that actually still is struggling to figure out how women can manage work and care?

比如，你是否认为这是对一个实际上仍在努力弄清楚女性如何管理工作和照顾的社会的反应？