Shifting US perspectives on Africa: A conversation with Rep. Sara Jacobs
In the final episode of season 5, host Landry Signé sits with the Hon.
在第五季的最后一集中，主持人 Landry Signé 与 Hon.
Sara Jacobs, representative for California’s 51st district and ranking member of the Subcommittee on Africa of the U.S. House Foreign Affairs Committee.
萨拉·雅各布斯（Sara Jacobs），加州第51选区代表，美国众议院外交委员会非洲小组委员会高级成员。
Amidst the backdrop of the 81st UN General Assembly, their discussion highlights how the U.S. can position itself to improve multilateral governance and support peace and security internationally.
在第 81 届联合国大会的背景下，他们的讨论凸显了美国如何定位自己以改善多边治理并支持国际和平与安全。
What I’m continuously trying to push my colleagues on is that we need to engage with Africa for its own sake, not because it’s part of some chessboard that we’re, like, trying to compete with the Chinese or the Russians on.
我一直在努力敦促我的同事们，我们需要为了非洲本身而与非洲接触，而不是因为它是我们试图与中国人或俄罗斯人竞争的某个棋盘的一部分。
SIGNÉ: Hello, welcome to season five of the Foresight Africa podcast.
SIGNÉ：您好，欢迎收看 Foresight Africa 播客第五季。
As always, I am your host and executive producer Landry Signé, senior fellow in the Brookings Institution’s Africa Growth Initiative.
一如既往，我是主持人兼执行制片人兰德里·西涅 (Landry Signé)，他是布鲁金斯学会非洲增长倡议的高级研究员。
Today’s episode is the last of our fifth season.
今天的这一集是第五季的最后一集。
Over the past eight months, we have examined U.S.-Africa relations from the perspective of trade, investment, migration, diplomacy, and culture.
过去八个月，我们从贸易、投资、移民、外交、文化等角度审视了美非关系。
To bring this season to a close, we are honored to be joined by the Honorable Sara Jacobs, congresswoman for California’s 51st District in the U.S. House of Representative.
为了结束这个季节，我们很荣幸邀请到美国众议院加利福尼亚州第 51 选区女议员萨拉·雅各布斯 (Sara Jacobs) 阁下。
Congresswoman Jacobs is the ranking member of the Subcommittee on Africa in the House Foreign Affairs Committee and is also a member of the House Armed Services Committee.
众议员雅各布斯是众议院外交事务委员会非洲小组委员会的高级成员，也是众议院军事委员会的成员。
She has also been an active voice in and out of Congress for constructive U.S. engagement around international peace and security issues.
她还在国会内外积极呼吁美国在国际和平与安全问题上进行建设性参与。
Congresswoman Jacobs, thank you so much for welcoming us today.
国会女议员雅各布斯，非常感谢您今天对我们的欢迎。
SIGNÉ: As we speak, the United Nations is gathering for its 81st General Assembly at a time when the U.S. relationship with multilateral organizations is under increasing pressure.
西涅：就在我们发言之际，联合国正在召开第 81 届大会，此时美国与多边组织的关系正面临越来越大的压力。
What do you see as the ideal relationships between the U.S. and the United Nations?
您认为美国与联合国之间的理想关系是什么？
Well, I think it’s important that the United States plays a leading role at the UN because we know the UN can do a lot of really important things on these kinds of supranational problems that are really hard for any one country to address on their own.
嗯，我认为美国在联合国发挥领导作用很重要，因为我们知道联合国可以在此类超国家问题上做很多非常重要的事情，而这些问题对于任何一个国家来说都很难独自解决。
Right?
正确的？
Climate change, nuclear nonproliferation, AI, all these other areas.
气候变化、核不扩散、人工智能以及所有其他领域。
But I think two things can be true: It’s important that the U.S. plays a leading role and engages, and the UN is a really important institution, and the UN really needs reform.
但我认为有两件事可能是正确的：美国发挥领导作用并参与进来很重要，联合国是一个非常重要的机构，联合国确实需要改革。
And you know, I think, for instance, the UN right now is going through their UN80 Reform process, and I think it’s important that member states make sure that that’s not just a cost cutting exercise, but that’s a real sort of strategic plan on how we get the UN that we need for the future.
你知道，例如，我认为联合国目前正在经历联合国80改革进程，我认为重要的是成员国要确保这不仅仅是一项削减成本的活动，而是关于如何建立我们未来所需的联合国的真正战略计划。
I think we need reform of the Security Council that was really based on the kinds of, you know, power structures that were in place in 1945 that are very different than what they are now.
我认为我们需要对安理会进行改革，这种改革实际上是基于 1945 年建立的权力结构，与现在有很大不同。
I think it’s important that Africa gets a seat at the Security Council, for instance, a permanent seat.
我认为非洲在安理会获得席位很重要，例如常任理事国席位。
And, you know, I think it’s important that we hold both those truths, right, that the UN is a really, really important institution, and there’s a lot of reform that we need to do that the U.S. should play a leading role in.
而且，你知道，我认为我们坚持这两个事实很重要，对吧，联合国是一个非常非常重要的机构，我们需要进行很多改革，美国应该在其中发挥主导作用。
SIGNÉ: Amazing, Congresswoman!
签名：太棒了，国会女议员！
What actions can the U.S. government, including Congress, take to facilitate this kind of partnerships?
包括国会在内的美国政府可以采取哪些行动来促进这种伙伴关系？
Well, I think first of all, it’s important that we pay our dues in full.
嗯，我认为首先，我们必须全额缴纳会费，这一点很重要。
Congress has really handicapped the U.S.’ ability to do that.
国会确实削弱了美国这样做的能力。
In the ‘90s, Congress passed a cap on the dues the U.S. can pay to peacekeeping, and so we’ve been in arrears to peacekeeping for a long time.
上世纪90年代，国会通过了美国维和会费上限，因此我们长期拖欠维和费用。
And so I’ve actually introduced a bill that would ensure the U.S. actually pays our dues in full, which I think would be a really important first start to make sure that the U.S. is really engaging in the UN in a way that actually helps build our leadership.
因此，我实际上提出了一项法案，确保美国真正全额缴纳会费，我认为这将是一个非常重要的第一步，以确保美国真正以有助于建立我们领导力的方式参与联合国事务。
SIGNÉ: Insightful!
西涅：有洞察力！
This season of Foresight Africa has been focused on U.S.-Africa relations.
本季《前瞻非洲》的重点是美非关系。
What do you see as the most promising U.S.-Africa opportunities, and how can the U.S. best take advantage for these opportunities.
您认为美国与非洲之间最有前途的机会是什么？美国如何才能最好地利用这些机会。
Look, I think we’re in a really interesting moment for U.S.-Africa relations, because a lot of the actions of the Trump administration, I would say, have really hurt our engagement.
看，我认为我们正处于美非关系的一个非常有趣的时刻，因为我想说，特朗普政府的很多行动确实损害了我们的接触。
Right?
正确的？
The cuts to USAID, the cuts to foreign assistance have left many Africans feeling like the U.S. doesn’t care and that we’re not a reliable partner.
美国国际开发署的削减和外国援助的削减让许多非洲人感觉美国不在乎，我们不是一个可靠的合作伙伴。
At the same time, I think that it’s an important moment to really double down on this from aid to trade model and really make sure that we are treating our African partners like partners, not like recipients of aid.
与此同时，我认为现在是真正加倍努力从援助到贸易模式的重要时刻，并真正确保我们像对待合作伙伴，而不是像援助接受者一样对待我们的非洲伙伴。
And, you know, I was really struck that a lot of what we heard from African countries after the aid cuts was how, you know, they didn’t want to be dependent on aid forever.
而且，你知道，我真的很震惊，在援助削减后，我们从非洲国家听到的很多消息都是，你知道，他们不想永远依赖援助。
Right?
正确的？
There was not quite the sort of backlash that we thought we were gonna see.
并没有出现我们认为会看到的那种强烈反对。
And so I do think it’s important that we really treat our African partners like partners.
因此，我确实认为我们真正像对待合作伙伴一样对待我们的非洲合作伙伴非常重要。
I think there are some opportunities right now.
我认为现在有一些机会。
I think the general idea of the health MOUs that this administration is doing is is a good one.
我认为本届政府正在制定的卫生谅解备忘录的总体思路是好的。
Right?
正确的？
How do we have, like, multi-year compacts where it’s very clear what the U.S. has committed to do, what we’re expecting from the partner countries, what they should be getting ready to be able to take on themselves.
我们如何制定多年期契约，其中非常明确美国承诺做什么，我们对伙伴国家的期望是什么，以及他们应该做好哪些准备才能承担起自己的责任。
I am worried that the implementation of these MOUs is being weaponized to get these really harmful like third country transfer agreements, mineral deals, other kinds of things that we know this administration is very focused on that are not in the best interest of the African people.
我担心这些谅解备忘录的实施正在被武器化，以实现真正有害的目标，例如第三国转让协议、矿产交易以及我们知道本届政府非常关注的其他类型的事情，这些事情不符合非洲人民的最大利益。
But I do think that we need to recognize that you can’t just cut off aid and expect trade to come the next day.
但我确实认为我们需要认识到，你不能只是切断援助并期望第二天就会出现贸易。
There’s some real capacities that need to be developed.
有一些真正的能力需要发展。
And so, to me, I think we need to be thinking about how do we create these longer term agreements so that you do have a set agreement of when U.S. assistance is going to stop and what what countries need to do to prepare for that moment.
因此，对我来说，我认为我们需要考虑如何制定这些长期协议，以便就美国何时停止援助以及各国需要做什么准备达成一致。
SIGNÉ: Insightful, Congresswoman.
签名：富有洞察力的国会女议员。
I really like that notion of partnerships, but also of long-term agreement configuration, because this is also important from an investment perspective.
我真的很喜欢伙伴关系的概念，而且也喜欢长期协议配置的概念，因为从投资的角度来看这也很重要。
One issue you have long championed is for the U.S. to reform how and when it delivers security assistance for foreign governments.
您长期以来倡导的一个问题是美国改革向外国政府提供安全援助的方式和时间。
In 2022, you wrote an op-ed on the need to invest in good governance as part of counterterrorism efforts, and you have also advocated linking this kind of support to effective military governance.
2022 年，您撰写了一篇专栏文章，指出作为反恐努力的一部分，需要投资于善政，并且您还主张将这种支持与有效的军事治理联系起来。
You explain to our listeners why this is such an important priority for global security and for U.S. interest?
您向我们的听众解释为什么这对全球安全和美国利益如此重要？
So, when I worked at the State Department, one of the big projects I worked on was how we counter and prevent violent extremism.
因此，当我在国务院工作时，我从事的大项目之一就是我们如何反击和防止暴力极端主义。
And we looked at all of the empirical evidence that’s been done, and one of the things that was very clear was that one of the main drivers of people or communities being susceptible to violent extremism was state-sponsored violence against themselves or someone they loved.
我们研究了所有已经完成的经验证据，非常清楚的一件事是，人们或社区容易受到暴力极端主义影响的主要驱动因素之一是国家支持的针对他们自己或他们所爱的人的暴力。
And so in many ways, in the name of counterterrorism, the U.S. has been doing things that might actually be creating the very problem we’re trying to solve.
因此，在很多方面，以反恐的名义，美国一直在做的事情实际上可能会造成我们正在试图解决的问题。
And so that’s why I think it’s so important that we shift and change the way we do our security assistance because we don’t want to be part of governments and militaries that are abusing their people.
因此，我认为转变和改变我们提供安全援助的方式非常重要，因为我们不想成为虐待人民的政府和军队的一部分。
And there are already laws on the books preventing that but they’re kind of blunt instruments.
书中已经有法律禁止这种情况发生，但它们是一种钝器。
And so what I’ve proposed is a security assistance compacts approach where every country would be analyzed and indexed based on their security governance and there would be four tiers.
因此，我提出的是一种安全援助契约方法，其中每个国家都将根据其安全治理进行分析和索引，并且有四个层次。
If you have very little or not that good security governance, you’re in tier one; you get very basic support.
如果你的安全治理很少或没有那么好，那么你就处于第一层；你会得到非常基本的支持。
And then as you go up: tier two, tier three, tier four.
然后往上走：第二层、第三层、第四层。
Tier four you basically are eligible for all security assistance.
第四级，您基本上有资格获得所有安全援助。
In tier two and three, what we do is we create a compact model where these governments can enter into a compact with the United States that we make investments and we help them do the kinds of things that would get their security governance to the next tier so that it’s not just about punishing people but really helping them build the capacities and positive conditionality.
在第二层和第三层，我们所做的是创建一个紧凑的模型，这些政府可以与美国签订契约，我们进行投资，我们帮助他们做一些事情，将他们的安全治理提升到下一个层次，这样这不仅仅是惩罚人们，而是真正帮助他们建设能力和积极的条件。
SIGNÉ: I really like that configuration where various government are enabled from depending on your starting point.
SIGNÉ：我真的很喜欢这种配置，根据你的出发点启用不同的政府。
So thank you so much Congresswoman.
非常感谢国会女议员。
You have been a very vocal supporter of UN peacekeeping supports, including in Africa.
您一直是联合国维和行动的大力支持者，包括在非洲的维和行动。
What advantages does the UN’s peacekeeping models offer over unilateral action and what are some continued challenges?
与单边行动相比，联合国维和模式有哪些优势？持续存在的挑战是什么？
Look, I think UN peacekeeping is an incredibly important model for how we can do burden sharing and we know that it is useful tool, that it costs much less than U.S. unilateral intervention.
看，我认为联合国维和行动对于我们如何分担负担来说是一个极其重要的模式，我们知道它是有用的工具，而且它的成本比美国单方面干预要低得多。
And I think we have seen some real successes in peacekeeping like in Sierra Leone.
我认为我们在维持和平方面已经取得了一些真正的成功，比如在塞拉利昂。
We’ve also seen some real failures of peacekeeping like in Haiti where peacekeepers did not uphold the standards we want from them, like in Mali where the mission was not really resourced or unable to do what, what was asking of them.
我们还看到了维和行动的一些真正失败，例如在海地，维和人员没有遵守我们希望他们达到的标准，例如在马里，特派团没有真正的资源或无法完成他们所要求的事情。
And so I think the way we need to think about peacekeeping is that it’s a really important tool but it’s only a tool and it will only be successful if you have sort of the broader architecture around it to actually address the conflict and get to a resolution because a peacekeeping mission alone can’t do that without the broader sort of political buy-in, resourcing, et cetera.
因此，我认为我们需要考虑维和行动的方式是，它是一个非常重要的工具，但它只是一个工具，只有当你拥有更广泛的架构来真正解决冲突并达成解决方案时，它才会成功，因为如果没有更广泛的政治支持、资源等，单靠维和任务就无法做到这一点。
SIGNÉ: Fascinating!
西涅：令人着迷！
Throughout your three terms in the House of Representatives, Congresswoman, and your leadership in its subcommittees and caucuses, what accomplishments are you the most proud?
女议员，在您担任众议院的三个任期中，以及您在小组委员会和核心小组中的领导作用中，您最自豪的成就是什么？
It’s a good question.
这是一个好问题。
Especially hard to think about right now as we’re in the midst of the chaos of Washington, D.C. But I think one would be the work I’ve been doing to make sure that we’re holding our allies to the same standards we hold everyone else.
现在尤其难以思考，因为我们正处于华盛顿特区的混乱之中。但我认为，我一直在做的工作就是确保我们让我们的盟友遵守与其他人相同的标准。
I think this is incredibly important, not just from a moral standpoint, but also from a strategic standpoint as we want to make sure we’re able to build those kinds of coalitions that we know make us successful in this sort of new chaotic world.
我认为这非常重要，不仅从道德角度来看，而且从战略角度来看，因为我们希望确保我们能够建立那些我们知道能让我们在这种新的混乱世界中取得成功的联盟。
And so I’m really proud of Block the Bombs bill and the Stand Up for Sudan Act that would do that, that would hold our allies Israel and UAE to the same standards we hold everyone else and make sure that we’re holding them accountable when they don’t act according to our standards.
因此，我对《阻止炸弹法案》和《支持苏丹法案》感到非常自豪，该法案将让我们的盟友以色列和阿联酋遵守我们对其他国家采取的相同标准，并确保当他们不按照我们的标准行事时，我们会追究他们的责任。
I think another would be my work to protect civilians.
我认为另一项工作是保护平民。
I founded the Protection of Civilians in Conflict Caucus in my first term.
我在第一个任期内成立了冲突中平民保护核心小组。
We’ve been doing a lot of really important work, including getting some important fixes to how the U.S. military does their work, setting up a civilian harm center of excellence, getting some statutory language around civilian harm, and also getting changes to the DoD Manual of War that really actually materially impact how how our military does their work.
我们一直在做很多非常重要的工作，包括对美国军队的工作方式进行一些重要的修复，建立平民伤害卓越中心，制定一些有关平民伤害的法定语言，以及对国防部战争手册进行修改，这对我们军队的工作方式产生了真正的实质性影响。
And I guess the third would be just really thinking about how we do things differently.
我想第三个只是真正思考我们如何以不同的方式做事。
So like the security assistance bill we talked about, really focusing on localization and trying to get us to do localization, of our foreign assistance differently.
就像我们谈到的安全援助法案一样，真正注重本地化，并试图让我们以不同的方式进行对外援助的本地化。
Getting a bill passed that tries to get the State Department out into the countries more expeditionary diplomacy so they’re not just trapped in the embassy and not really able to do their work.
通过一项法案，试图让国务院对这些国家进行更远征的外交，这样他们就不仅仅被困在大使馆里，无法真正开展工作。
and really just, you know, always trying to think about how we can be doing the actual sort of statecraft better.
事实上，你知道，总是试图思考我们如何才能更好地执行实际的治国之道。
SIGNÉ: Amazing, Congresswoman!
签名：太棒了，国会女议员！
Why is it so important to have conversations about Africa within the U.S., and have you noticed any developments throughout your career in how we discuss and think about U.S.-Africa relations.
为什么在美国境内进行有关非洲的对话如此重要？在您的整个职业生涯中，您是否注意到我们讨论和思考美非关系的方式有任何进展？
I mean, Africa is an incredibly important continent.
我的意思是，非洲是一个极其重要的大陆。
Right?
正确的？
It’s got many of the fastest growing economies in the world, the fastest growing population in the world.
它拥有世界上许多增长最快的经济体和世界上增长最快的人口。
I think by 2050 one in four people in the world will be African.
我认为到 2050 年，世界上四分之一的人将是非洲人。
So it’s an incredibly important place for the U.S. to be engaged with.
因此，对于美国来说，这是一个非常重要的接触场所。
And you know, I think for a long time it hasn’t gotten the attention that it deserves.
你知道，我认为很长一段时间以来它都没有得到应有的关注。
You know, you asked me about changes, and I think one of the things that’s been an interesting change that I’ve seen is around strategic competition and how we’re viewing Africa.
你知道，你问我有关变化的问题，我认为我看到的有趣的变化之一是围绕战略竞争以及我们如何看待非洲。
And you know, what I’m continuously trying to push my colleagues on is that we need to engage with Africa for its own sake, not because it’s part of some chessboard that we’re, like, trying to compete with the Chinese or the Russians on.
你知道，我一直在努力敦促我的同事们，我们需要为了非洲本身而与非洲接触，而不是因为它是我们试图与中国人或俄罗斯人竞争的某个棋盘的一部分。
And I think it’s important that we don’t just try and compete with China or Russia, like, one for one.
我认为重要的是我们不要只是尝试与中国或俄罗斯进行一对一的竞争。
Like they are potentially gonna fund this road, so we have to build a road.
就像他们可能会资助这条路一样，所以我们必须修建一条路。
They’re going to potentially, like, support this authoritarian regime, so we have to support that authoritarian regime.
他们可能会支持这个独裁政权，所以我们必须支持这个独裁政权。
I think it’s really important that we invest in Africa, that we engage with Africa, but we should do it on our terms and on what makes sense for our strategic goals and what makes sense for the African people, and that doesn’t necessarily meaning competing one for one.
我认为我们在非洲投资、与非洲接触非常重要，但我们应该按照我们的条件、对我们的战略目标有意义、对非洲人民有意义的方式来做，这并不一定意味着一对一的竞争。
And so, you know, for me, I think it’s really important that we are talking about Africa for its own sake, and and how important it is and why it matters for U.S. security, not in relation to whatever competition, but just because it’s an important place that has all these growing economies and populations.
所以，你知道，对我来说，我认为我们为了非洲本身而讨论非洲是非常重要的，它有多重要，为什么它对美国安全很重要，与任何竞争无关，而只是因为它是一个拥有所有这些不断增长的经济和人口的重要地方。
SIGNÉ: This is very meaningful, Congresswoman, and I really love your enthusiasm, which is aligned with the findings that we have published, with the Africa Growth Initiative and Brookings Institution.
西涅：这非常有意义，国会女议员，我真的很喜欢你的热情，这与我们与非洲增长倡议和布鲁金斯学会发表的调查结果一致。
What role do evidence base insights from research institutions like Brookings play in informing the work of the Congress and shaping a more prosperous U.S.-Africa relationships?
布鲁金斯学会等研究机构的证据基础见解在为国会工作提供信息和塑造更加繁荣的美非关系方面发挥什么作用？
We really rely and use a lot outside partners and organizations and their expertise.
我们确实依赖并使用很多外部合作伙伴和组织及其专业知识。
You know, we have really small staffs.
你知道，我们的员工非常少。
I have one person on my team who works, you know, full-time on foreign affairs, and that’s rare in a House member’s office.
你知道，我的团队中有一个人全职从事外交事务，这在众议院议员的办公室中很少见。
And so we really rely on the expertise and partnership of people in outside organizations like Brookings to help us be able to do our work, to think up new ideas, to do research that we don’t have the capacity to do from the inside.
因此，我们确实依赖布鲁金斯学会等外部组织人员的专业知识和合作伙伴关系来帮助我们开展工作、提出新想法、进行我们内部没有能力进行的研究。
SIGNÉ: On this beautiful note, thank you so much Congresswoman Jacobs for taking the time to engage with us and for sharing your words of wisdom.
签名：在此，非常感谢国会女议员雅各布斯花时间与我们互动并分享您的智慧之言。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Thanks so much for having me and for all of your great work.
非常感谢您的光临以及您所做的所有出色工作。
I am Landry Signé, and this has been Foresight Africa .
我是 Landry Signé，这里是 Foresight Africa。
Thank you, listeners, for joining me today.
谢谢各位听众今天加入我的行列。
The Foresight Africa podcast is brought to you by the Brookings Podcast Network.
前瞻非洲播客由布鲁金斯播客网络为您提供。
Send your feedback and questions to podcasts at Brookings dot edu.
将您的反馈和问题发送至 Brookings dot edu 的播客。
My special thanks to the production team, including Ike Blake, supervising producer; Fred Dews, producer; Dafe Oputu, Izzy Taylor, and Aysha House, associate producers; and Daniel Morales and Teddy Wansink, video producers.
我特别感谢制作团队，包括监制艾克·布莱克（Ike Blake）；弗莱德·杜斯，制片人； Dafe Oputu、Izzy Taylor 和 Aysha House，副制片人；丹尼尔·莫拉莱斯 (Daniel Morales) 和泰迪·万辛克 (Teddy Wansink)，视频制作人。
The show’s art was designed by Shavanthi Mendis.
该剧的艺术设计是由 Shavanthi Mendis 设计的。
Additional promotional support for this podcast comes from my colleagues in Brookings Global and the Office of Communications at Brookings.
对此播客的额外促销支持来自我在布鲁金斯全球和布鲁金斯传播办公室的同事。