Rethinking girls’ agency through collective learning

Early Childhood Education Education Access & Equity Education Policy Global Education K-12 Education

幼儿教育 教育机会与公平 教育政策 全球教育 K-12 教育

In the first episode of Embedding Equality in Education , hosts Jennifer O’Donoghue and Edem Dorothy Ossai introduce the Learning and Action Alliance for Girls’ Agency (LAAGA), a Global South-rooted network of Echidna Global Scholar alumni working to rethink how girls’ agency is understood, studied, and supported.

在《将平等融入教育》的第一集中，主持人 Jennifer O’Donoghue 和 Edem Dorothy Ossai 介绍了女孩能动性学习与行动联盟 (LAAGA)，这是一个根植于全球南方的针鼹全球学者校友网络，致力于重新思考如何理解、研究和支持女孩能动性。

Jenn and Edem share the origin story of LAAGA’s community of practice, unpack why dominant development narratives get girls’ agency wrong, and introduce LAAGA’s living definition of agency — the power to dream, decide, and act.

Jenn 和 Edem 分享了 LAAGA 实践社区的起源故事，解释了为什么主流发展叙事会错误地解释女孩的能动性，并介绍 LAAGA 对能动性的生动定义——梦想、决定和行动的力量。

Along the way, they reflect on their own journeys into this work and set the stage for a season built on centering girls’ voices, embracing contextual and multi-dimensional understandings of agency, and learning collectively across difference.

一路上，她们反思了自己的工作历程，并为这一季奠定了基础，以女孩的声音为中心，拥抱对能动性的情境和多维理解，以及跨越差异的集体学习。

O’DONOGHUE: I’d like to invite you to take a moment or two to reflect.

奥多诺休：我想邀请您花一两分钟时间思考一下。

Reflect on a time that you had to make a difficult decision, a time that you wanted to take action on something, but you knew that it wasn’t going to be easy.

回想一下您必须做出艰难决定的时刻，您想要对某件事采取行动的时刻，但您知道这并不容易。

How did you go about that?

你是怎么做的？

Who did you reach out to who maybe made it easier or harder for you?

你联系了谁，谁可能让你的事情变得更容易或更困难？

What were some of the factors around you, the context, the situation, the resources you had available to you, your opportunities?

你周围的一些因素、背景、情况、你可以利用的资源、你的机会是什么？

What might have made it easier or harder for you to make that decision to take that action?

是什么让您更容易或更难做出采取该行动的决定？

What you’ve just reflected about is this concept that we call agency.

你刚才反映的就是我们称之为代理的概念。

Agency is about aspirations.

代理关系到愿望。

Agency is about decisionmaking.

代理关系到决策。

Agency is about taking action.

代理就是采取行动。

And agency is a part of all of our lives.

代理是我们生活的一部分。

We all exercise agency.

我们都行使代理权。

We all exercise it every day from the moment we get up and throughout our day.

我们每天从起床的那一刻起就一直在锻炼它。

We exercise it in ways that are big and small.

我们以大大小小的方式来运用它。

And whether or not we are able to fully exercise that agency depends.

我们是否能够充分行使这一代理权取决于我们。

So for all of us, it’s something that is dynamic.

所以对于我们所有人来说，这是动态的。

It’s not a quality we have.

这不是我们所拥有的品质。

It is something that moves as we move through this world.

当我们在这个世界上行走时，它就会移动。

Welcome to the first episode of Embedding Equality in Education: Research and Action for Gender Just Futures , where we will continue to unpack this idea of agency in our lives and in the lives of girls around the world.

欢迎收看《将平等纳入教育：性别公正未来的研究与行动》的第一集，我们将继续在我们的生活和世界各地女孩的生活中阐释这种代理理念。

I am Jennifer O’Donoghue, senior fellow and deputy director at the Center for Universal Education at Brookings, where I lead our work on gender equality in and through education.

我是詹妮弗·奥多诺霍 (Jennifer O’Donoghue)，布鲁金斯学会普及教育中心的高级研究员兼副主任，负责领导我们在教育领域和通过教育实现性别平等的工作。

And in that I have the great privilege to work with a network of global partners around the world, leaders who are working together to advance gender equality in and through education.

我非常荣幸能够与世界各地的全球合作伙伴网络合作，这些合作伙伴共同努力通过教育促进性别平等。

And those prepositions matter because it’s not just gender equality in schools or thinking about gender equity in terms of access to schools, but it’s really about what does education mean?

这些介词很重要，因为这不仅仅是学校中的性别平等或考虑入学方面的性别平等，而是真正涉及教育的含义是什么？

How is education and through education are we changing outcomes and opportunities for young people around the world?

教育如何？通过教育，我们正在改变世界各地年轻人的成果和机会？

I will also say that gender is not just about girls.

我还要说，性别不仅仅是女孩的问题。

We’re gonna talk about girls today, but gender is another experience that each of us has.

今天我们要讨论的是女孩，但性别是我们每个人都有的另一种经历。

It’s something that every person, no matter what their gender is, experiences the world through the gendered structures that exist around us.

每个人，无论其性别是什么，都通过我们周围存在的性别结构来体验世界。

So, I want to now pause to introduce my amazing co-host for this first season, Edem Ossai.

所以，我现在想暂停一下，介绍一下我在第一季中出色的联合主持人，Edem Ossai。

So, Edem, over to you.

那么，埃德姆，交给你了。

O’DONOGHUE: Thank you, Edem.

奥多诺休： 谢谢你，埃德姆。

It’s it’s wonderful to have you here.

很高兴有你在这里。

I want to share with everyone that I have been lucky enough to collaborate with Edem on this agency work, but really more broadly for five years now.

我想与大家分享，我很幸运能够与 Edem 合作开展这项机构工作，而且现在已经更广泛地合作了五年。

I think we just have had our five year anniversary of meeting each other and getting connected.

我想我们刚刚度过了认识并建立联系的五周年纪念日。

So, so happy to be in this space and conversation with you.

所以，很高兴来到这个空间并与您交谈。

So let us transition to talk a little bit about what this podcast is all about.

那么让我们来谈谈这个播客的全部内容。

So we mentioned agency, we mentioned girls.

所以我们提到了代理，我们提到了女孩。

This season one focus for our 3Es podcast will be on girls’ agency.

本季 3Es 播客的焦点之一将是女孩经纪公司。

We’ll be exploring some of the key lessons from our work with LAAGA, and Edem, can you tell us a little bit about what LAAGA is?

我们将探索与 LAAGA 合作的一些重要经验教训，Edem，您能告诉我们一些关于 LAAGA 是什么的信息吗？

So LAAGA is that thrilling space, and we want to share with you in the coming episodes some of the things we’ve been learning with and through girls about agency all over the world.

所以 LAAGA 是一个令人兴奋的空间，我们希望在接下来的几集中与您分享我们与世界各地的女孩一起并通过女孩们学到的一些关于代理的事情。

O’DONOGHUE: Wonderful.

奥多诺休： 太棒了。

So we will be really trying to connect research to lived experience.

因此，我们将真正努力将研究与生活经验联系起来。

O’DONOGHUE: I think, Edem, as you really highlighted for us, you know, we are are gonna use this space to really dig into this relationship between research and lived experience, between research findings and how we move those findings into action with girls and with communities.

奥多诺休：我认为，埃德姆，正如您向我们强调的那样，您知道，我们将利用这个空间来真正深入研究研究与生活经验之间的关系，研究结果与我们如何将这些发现付诸行动与女孩和社区之间的关系。

And we’re gonna be doing that with this large network of people.

我们将通过这个庞大的人员网络来做到这一点。

So we’re gonna hear lots of voices, and lots of experiences.

所以我们会听到很多声音和很多经历。

And we’re gonna also be able to hear from the the girls and the communities themselves as well.

我们也将能够听到女孩们和社区本身的声音。

But, you know, before we move move forward into all of that, about what we’ve been learning about agency, I would love to start with talking about why does it matter to talk about agency?

但是，你知道，在我们继续讨论所有这些之前，关于我们一直在学习的关于代理的知识，我想先谈谈为什么谈论代理很重要？

Why do you feel like this conversation is needed?

为什么您觉得需要进行这次对话？

And so many people are powerless in the world because this concept of agency isn’t very well defined clearly, isn’t well understood in terms of how it interacts with other people, other systems, other structures, other, you know, norms and cultures, and conventions that shape our cultures.

世界上有这么多人无能为力，因为代理的概念没有得到很好的定义，也没有很好地理解它如何与其他人、其他系统、其他结构、其他规范和文化以及塑造我们文化的惯例相互作用。

So it’s so critical because millions of girls all over the world are denied an education, and this is such a critical pathway to future outcomes.

因此，这一点非常重要，因为全世界有数百万女孩被剥夺了受教育的机会，而这是通往未来成果的重要途径。

And so to think that all of this rests on that ability to dream about a future, to decide, and to take steps to act on that dream and those decisions.

因此，认为所有这一切都取决于梦想未来、做出决定并采取措施实现梦想和这些决定的能力。

So that’s why we have to really, you know, frontline this conversation, mainstream it, like, make it loud and tease out all the issues in a different context that could thin or expand agency for girls.

因此，这就是为什么我们必须真正地，你知道，将这场对话置于前沿，将其纳入主流，比如大声喧哗，并在不同的背景下梳理出所有可能削弱或扩大女孩代理权的问题。

O’DONOGHUE: Yeah.

奥多诺休：是的。

And I think that’s really critical what you’re saying.

我认为你所说的非常重要。

You know, one of the things I’ve been working on, interestingly before it was called agency I was working on on youth voice, youth participation.

你知道，我一直在做的事情之一，有趣的是，在它被称为代理机构之前，我一直致力于青年声音、青年参与。

So I think there’s been many names.

所以我认为有很多名字。

But, in this work, in youth agency and in girls’ agency, I have found that there exist narratives that become really frustrating because they don’t recognize some of the things that you just said.

但是，在这项工作中，在青年机构和女孩机构中，我发现存在着一些令人沮丧的叙述，因为他们不认识你刚才所说的一些事情。

We often put these really individualistic understandings, right, that agency is something that is just about the person.

我们经常把这些真正个人主义的理解放在一起，对吧，代理就是关于人的东西。

And this exists I think in many different spaces and and in different ways.

我认为这存在于许多不同的空间并以不同的方式。

That, first of all, that we can give someone else agency.

首先，我们可以给别人代理权。

Right?

正确的？

Like, that denies the fact that that everyone has agency within them.

就像，这否认了每个人内心都有代理权的事实。

And that what young people need and what girls in particular need are life skills.

年轻人、尤其是女孩需要的是生活技能。

And that if they have life skills, then they’ll have agency and then they’ll solve all the world’s problems.

如果他们有生活技能，那么他们就会有代理权，然后他们就会解决世界上所有的问题。

But to your point and to the things we’re saying, there’s systems, there’s structures surrounding us, there’s, you know, enablers, there’s hindrances.

但就你的观点和我们所说的事情而言，我们周围有系统、有结构，有推动因素，也有障碍。

And so if we are blind to these, you know, surrounding constructs, then we we leave the people way more limited.

因此，如果我们对这些周围的构造视而不见，那么我们就会让人们受到更多的限制。

In fact, we could even create conditions where they become in direct conflict because of these new skills and new knowledge that they have but without that understanding of how to negotiate with these surrounding systems.

事实上，我们甚至可以创造条件让他们发生直接冲突，因为他们拥有这些新技能和新知识，但不了解如何与这些周围系统进行谈判。

And so that tension creates a friction that is even more conflicting for their lives.

因此，这种紧张会产生摩擦，使他们的生活更加矛盾。

And so, yes, I really am excited that finally a conversation is happening on agency that really, unpacks all of these components.

所以，是的，我真的很兴奋，终于在代理机构上进行了一次对话，真正解开了所有这些组件。

O’DONOGHUE: Yeah.

奥多诺休：是的。

And, I think one of the things—and we will get into I think a bit more, how and why we started LAAGA—but one of the things we talked about in the beginning of that is is really the lack of spaces to to critically question, right, to to really ask questions about this idea of agency and why it was that we adults and adults who work in development and global education in particular are sort of spreading agency around the world and and think it’s so important and and how little has been done to actually pause and ask girls themselves what agency means to them.

而且，我认为其中一件事——我们会更多地讨论我们是如何以及为什么创办 LAAGA 的——但我们在开始时谈到的一件事是，确实缺乏空间来批判性地质疑，对吧，真正询问有关机构这一概念的问题，以及为什么我们成年人和特别是从事发展和全球教育工作的成年人在世界各地传播机构，并认为这是如此重要，而且在真正停下来问女孩自己什么机构方面却做得很少对他们来说意味着。

Right?

正确的？

And and what it looks like for them.

以及对他们来说是什么样子的。

And so for us in LAAGA, we realized that that didn’t really transform the world.

因此，对于 LAAGA 的我们来说，我们意识到这并没有真正改变世界。

With all of those kinds of activities happening for successive decades, things weren’t getting better for girls.

随着所有这些类型的活动连续几十年发生，女孩的情况并没有好转。

Girls have to be, you know, positioned as experts over their own lives.

你知道，女孩必须成为自己生活的专家。

And when a person is an expert, you give them the microphone, you give them the space, you give them the power to decide.

当一个人是专家时，你给他们麦克风，给他们空间，给他们决定的权力。

And so that’s why LAAGA takes a very different approach to this work.

这就是为什么 LAAGA 对这项工作采取了非常不同的方法。

We center girls in this entire conversation.

我们在整个对话中以女孩为中心。

We center girls also in decisionmaking.

我们也以女孩为中心参与决策。

It’s not only just, you know, wanting to hear from them, want to facilitate their entry into spaces where they can actually decide.

你知道，这不仅仅是想听取他们的意见，想帮助他们进入他们可以真正做出决定的空间。

O’DONOGHUE: Yeah, and I think one thing that will really inform this podcast and that we’ll unpack as we move through the episodes is, you know, one of the key things that we learned with girls, right, is it’s about systems.

奥多诺休：是的，我认为真正为这个播客提供信息的一件事是，我们在播放剧集时会解开的，你知道，我们从女孩那里学到的关键事情之一，是关于系统的。

Right?

正确的？

And so that if we want to promote girls’ agency or or improve outcomes through girls’ agency, we really need to first of all understand what are the systems around girls that are influencing that.

因此，如果我们想促进女孩的能动性或通过女孩的能动性改善结果，我们确实需要首先了解哪些围绕女孩的系统正在影响这一点。

And then work with girls and their communities, to transform those systems with and for girls’ agency.

然后与女孩及其社区合作，与女孩机构一起改造这些系统。

And, you know, that has, I think, been a huge learning for us.

而且，我认为这对我们来说是一个巨大的学习。

And and one of the things that we really believe is our contribution to LAAGA and we will be unpacking that , and, you know, thinking about what we hope that listeners will be able to learn and experience through this podcast.

我们真正相信的一件事是我们对 LAAGA 的贡献，我们将解开这一点，并且，你知道，思考我们希望听众能够通过这个播客学习和体验什么。

You know, we’ve talked a little bit about how we’ll move from theory or concept into practice.

你知道，我们已经讨论了如何从理论或概念转向实践。

How we’ll have some stories, stories with of girls, girls collaborating with researchers, girls defining agency in their own contexts.

我们将如何讲述一些故事，关于女孩的故事，女孩与研究人员合作的故事，女孩在自己的背景下定义机构的故事。

When we were talking with our our LAAGA colleagues, Joyce Kinyanjui and Mary Otieno, who have been leading the LAAGA research in the Karamoja region in Kenya and Uganda, they really, talked about the importance of girls naming this concept of agency.

当我们与一直在肯尼亚和乌干达卡拉莫贾地区领导 LAAGA 研究的 LAAGA 同事 Joyce Kinyanjui 和 Mary Otieno 交谈时，他们确实谈到了女孩命名这一代理概念的重要性。

So not using the word “agency” with the girls, but but the work that they did about, you know, what does agency mean to girls, and then what is an expression for that, or a phrase or a word in their own language, right, that that really brings that to life for them.

因此，不要对女孩使用“代理”这个词，而是用她们所做的工作，你知道，代理对女孩意味着什么，然后用她们自己的语言表达什么，或者用她们自己的语言表达一个短语或一个单词，对吧，这真正为她们带来了生活。

And we saw it also play out in, you know, Pakistan when Jamila equally shared how girls became researchers themselves, you know, and led dialogues that led them to not only define agency, but also begin to map out who’s critical in the space in giving them the chance to really exercise their agency.

我们看到它也在巴基斯坦上演，你知道，贾米拉同样分享了女孩们如何成为研究人员，你知道，并引导对话，使她们不仅定义代理，而且开始确定谁在该领域发挥关键作用，让她们有机会真正行使自己的代理权。

And so it’s really exciting, you know, that listeners will get to have front row seats into these findings that girls by themselves have have brought up on on agency.

所以这真的很令人兴奋，你知道，听众将能够在前排座位上了解女孩们自己在机构中提出的这些发现。

O’DONOGHUE: So, listeners, I hope you can you can feel the excitement that Edem and I have about being able to engage with our colleagues and really learn with them as we all learn with and from the girls.

奥多诺休：所以，听众们，我希望你们能感受到 Edem 和我对能够与我们的同事互动并真正与他们一起学习的兴奋，就像我们都与女孩们一起学习并向女孩们学习一样。

And we will have the opportunity to hear from these folks that we mentioned throughout, throughout this this season.

我们将有机会听到我们在整个赛季中提到的这些人的声音。

O’DONOGHUE: So we’ve been talking a lot about agency, about why we wanted to focus on agency and some of the critical perspective that we wanted to bring to this work.

奥多诺霍：所以我们一直在谈论代理，谈论为什么我们想要关注代理以及我们想要为这项工作带来的一些批判性观点。

But I think it’s important for us to define for our listeners how we are understanding agency.

但我认为，为我们的听众定义我们如何理解代理对我们来说很重要。

And and I want to put an asterisk on this because for us in LAAGA, you know, from the beginning, as we approach this trying to get to a definition of agency, we came to a decision that we would define agency as a living, evolving concept.

我想在这上面加一个星号，因为对于我们 LAAGA 来说，你知道，从一开始，当我们试图给出代理的定义时，我们就决定将代理定义为一个活生生的、不断发展的概念。

And so that means for us, there’s no single universal definition.

所以这对我们来说意味着没有单一的通用定义。

Agency doesn’t necessarily translate well or directly from one language to the next.

代理不一定能很好地或直接从一种语言翻译成另一种语言。

And we work in multiple languages and across multiple contexts.

我们使用多种语言并跨多种环境进行工作。

And so, I think in LAAGA got to a place of comfort with some ambiguity and with saying, you know, we don’t need to have, and we don’t necessarily even need to all share fully the same, one singular definition.

因此，我认为在 LAAGA 中，我们已经达到了一个舒适的境地，但有些含糊不清，并且说，你知道，我们不需要，我们甚至不一定需要所有人都共享完全相同的、单一的定义。

It’s more the conceptual understanding behind it and this commitment to to the why behind agency.

更多的是对其背后的概念性理解以及对代理背后原因的承诺。

But having said all of that, I would love, Edem, if you could share with us LAAGA’s definition or working definition of agency.

但话虽如此，Edem，如果您能与我们分享 LAAGA 对代理的定义或工作定义，我会很高兴。

So this is how we’re currently thinking about agency, bearing in mind everything that you know, Jenn has explained and contextualized for us about our definition as a living thing.

这就是我们目前思考代理的方式，牢记你所知道的一切，Jenn 为我们解释了我们作为生物的定义并结合了背景。

O’DONOGHUE: And, and I think, you know, through through these conversations around agency, we have a shorthand version of that, which is really these sort of three Ds.

奥多诺霍：而且，我想，你知道，通过这些围绕代理机构的对话，我们有了一个简写版本，实际上就是这样的三个 D。

O’DONOGHUE: Yeah.

奥多诺休：是的。

And, I think we’re still at a at a pretty conceptual level here, and we hope that this is one of the strengths of the upcoming episodes of the podcast is that we’ll really be digging in with our colleagues and with the girls themselves to talk more concretely about sort of what this means, the ways that this Dream, Decide, and Drive agency is is shaped by the knowledge, the skills, the relationships, the context.

而且，我认为我们仍然处于相当概念化的水平，我们希望这是即将播出的播客节目的优势之一，我们将真正与我们的同事和女孩们一起深入探讨这意味着什么，这个梦想、决定和驱动机构是如何由知识、技能、关系和背景塑造的。

O’DONOGHUE: I think one of the key learnings for us in all of that, in many conversations about girls’ agency and and girls’ voice, there has been a focus and also a critique here that people tend to focus, especially people, you know, in the Global North looking and working in the Global South focus on these, like, extraordinary moments, right, of these girls who, like, you know, against all odds are able to go and speak in front of Congress or something like that.

奥多诺霍：我认为我们在这一切中学到的关键教训之一是，在许多关于女孩能动性和女孩声音的对话中，人们往往会关注焦点和批评，尤其是那些在北半球寻找并在南半球工作的人，重点关注这些女孩的非凡时刻，对吧，这些女孩，像，你知道，克服一切困难能够去国会或类似的地方发言。

O’DONOGHUE: Yeah.

奥多诺休：是的。

Exactly.

确切地。

And you know, I think, a a richness of this work and what really came out very strongly for me in this are just these, like, critical moments of everyday agency; the decisions and the the actions that girls are taking every day; the the way that they’re negotiating, creating space for themselves and their dreams in their day-to-day life.

我认为，你知道，这项工作的丰富性以及对我来说真正强烈的影响就是这些日常机构的关键时刻；女孩每天所做的决定和行动；他们谈判的方式，在日常生活中为自己和梦想创造空间。

I’m curious if you, Edem, have any example that stands out around this, you know, from your work in LAAGA or from the, you know, the the broader body of work that you are part of in in Nigeria and elsewhere?

我很好奇你，Edem，是否有任何突出的例子，你知道，从你在 LAAGA 的工作中，或者从你知道的，你在尼日利亚和其他地方参与的更广泛的工作中？

And so some of these conversations that we’ve had in different contexts, you know, with our colleagues across LAAGA have really thrown up how important some of these sometimes underappreciated ideas are.

因此，我们在不同的背景下与 LAAGA 的同事进行的一些对话确实表明了其中一些有时被低估的想法的重要性。

In my example from Nigeria where I work, for instance, it’s become so, like, obvious all of a sudden how things like toilets.

例如，在我工作的尼日利亚的例子中，厕所之类的东西突然变得如此明显。

I mean we always talk about, oh, there’s lack of water, but even, like, where is the toilet built?

我的意思是我们总是谈论，哦，缺水，但甚至，比如，厕所建在哪里？

Is it close to the fence?

靠近栅栏吗？

You know, all of these things that we would take for granted really affect whether a girl wants to come to school during her, you know, period, for instance.

你知道，所有这些我们认为理所当然的事情确实会影响一个女孩是否愿意在她的时期来上学，例如。

Or, you know, if she has to, you know, go all the way to a certain part of the school compound to do the number two, will she decide instead to leave the school premises, right, and expose herself.

或者，你知道，如果她必须，你知道，一路走到学校大院的某个地方去做第二号，她会决定离开校园，对吧，暴露自己。

So all of these things become even more dangerous when you think about conflict, environments.

因此，当你考虑冲突和环境时，所有这些事情都变得更加危险。

They become sensitive when you think about areas prone to flooding, areas prone to environmental disasters.

当你想到容易发生洪水的地区、容易发生环境灾难的地区时，他们就会变得敏感。

So I realized how critical toilets were in the in a girl’s education journey in ways I never thought about before.

所以我意识到厕所在女孩的教育旅程中是多么重要，这是我以前从未想过的。

A rural girl, you know, will literally miss many days of schooling, because that distance she has to travel during her period all the way to school is compromised.

你知道，一个农村女孩实际上会错过很多天的上学时间，因为她在经期到学校的路程受到影响。

So all of these factors that we didn’t think about, just by hearing from girls, I suddenly started becoming more sensitive.

所以所有这些我们没有考虑到的因素，只是通过听到女孩的声音，我突然开始变得更加敏感。

And when you bring these girls into a room with policymakers, then they hear the heavy consequences if they fail to allocate required resources to, you know, maintaining these infrastructures, sustaining them, repairing them, and things like that.

当你把这些女孩带到政策制定者的房间里时，他们会听到如果他们未能分配所需的资源来维护这些基础设施、维持它们、修复它们以及类似的事情所带来的严重后果。

So that’s one example I can immediately think about.

这是我可以立即想到的一个例子。

And in other episodes, I think a lot of our LAAGA members, you know, throw up even more like, very visceral, you know, examples of how some really mundane things, things we think are mundane, are so defining in the lives of girls’ education.

在其他剧集中，我认为我们的很多 LAAGA 成员，你知道，抛出了更多的、非常发自内心的例子，你知道，一些真正平凡的事情，我们认为平凡的事情，如何在女孩的教育生活中如此定义。

O’DONOGHUE: Yeah.

奥多诺休：是的。

You know, I think for me, one of the, as you used the word visceral, I’m gonna pick up on that, most sort of visceral moments um where I saw how how this girls’ everyday acts of agency, right, like you just talked about how the challenges girls face to stay in school even, and to continue that, how everyday acts of agency that girls have been exercising can really come into conflict with systems and structures.

你知道，我认为对我来说，其中之一，当你使用“本能”这个词时，我会注意到，最本能的时刻，嗯，我看到这些女孩的日常代理行为如何，对，就像你刚才谈到女孩甚至在学校面临的挑战，继续说，女孩一直在行使的日常代理行为如何真正与系统和结构发生冲突。

When we were with the girls at one of the schools in the Karamoja, we were in a room that was sort of a common room and in one of the corners they just had all of these big trunks, like, steamer trunks, stacked one on top of another.

当我们和卡拉莫贾一所学校的女孩们在一起时，我们在一个类似于公共休息室的房间里，在一个角落里，他们只有所有这些大箱子，就像蒸笼一样，一个叠一个地堆放。

And we asked, what is that?

我们问，那是什么？

And they told us, oh, those are the trunks with all of the material possessions, right, all of the things that belong to the girls who have finished school, who have completed their coursework but cannot graduate because they owe school fees.

他们告诉我们，哦，那些是装有所有物质财产的箱子，对，所有属于已经完成学业的女孩的东西，她们已经完成了课程作业，但因为欠学费而无法毕业。

And I thought, we are talking about girls who have made it year after year after year, all the way through secondary school and somebody has made a decision, right,

我想，我们谈论的是年复一年，一直到中学的女孩，有人做出了决定，对吧，

And so, you know, I I think, again, maybe I’ll use that story as a transition to take a step backwards and really talk about where LAAGA came from and and how we began and why we felt like it was so important to pull together and to work explicitly on girls’ agency in LAAGA, which again is the Learning and Action Alliance for Girls’ Agency.

所以，你知道，我想，也许我会用这个故事作为一个过渡，退后一步，真正谈论 LAAGA 从哪里来，我们是如何开始的，以及为什么我们觉得齐心协力并明确地为 LAAGA 的女孩机构工作如此重要，这又是女孩机构学习与行动联盟。

So, LAAGA really grew out of a a larger community of practice and a network of people, Echidna Global Scholars.

因此，LAAGA 确实是从一个更大的实践社区和人员网络——针鼹全球学者（Echidna Global Scholars）中发展而来的。

The Echidna Global Scholars program started as a fellowship program at the Brookings Institution in 2012.

针鼹全球学者项目于 2012 年作为布鲁金斯学会的一项奖学金项目启动。

It’s it’s a six month fellowship that invites Global South leaders in gender equality and education to come to Brookings to do research, to publish their research and a policy brief through Brookings.

这是为期六个月的奖学金，邀请全球南方性别平等和教育领域的领导人来布鲁金斯学会进行研究，通过布鲁金斯学会发表他们的研究和政策简报。

And then in the past few years, after we had many years of this six month fellowship program, we realized, well, now we have all these alumni.

然后在过去的几年里，在我们进行了为期六个月的奖学金计划多年之后，我们意识到，现在我们有了所有这些校友。

What are we doing?

我们在做什么？

So we’ve been working together to come together as a network of alumni.

因此，我们一直在共同努力，作为校友网络走到一起。

And, you know, when I first joined Brookings about five years ago in in 2021 in the spring at that point—and that’s when you joined the Echidna Global Scholars Program as well, so we, we joined together …

而且，你知道，大约五年前，即 2021 年春天，我第一次加入布鲁金斯学会时，那时你也加入了针鼹全球学者计划，所以我们，我们一起加入了……

And so at that point, you know, we had about 33 Echidna Scholars.

那时，我们大约有 33 名针鼹学者。

And, as part of my coming into this program, I wanted to meet everyone and I wanted to ask, what is it that you’re working on?

而且，作为我加入这个项目的一部分，我想见到每个人，我想问一下，你们正在做什么？

What is it that you’re concerned about?

你关心的是什么？

What do you want to do?

你想让我做什么？

And what emerged from that was really the strong interest in creating a space where we could learn more intentionally together, deep dive into a topic.

由此产生的确实是对创建一个空间的强烈兴趣，在这里我们可以一起有意识地学习更多内容，深入研究某个主题。

And the topic that was really, I think, on the forefront of many people’s minds in the network was agency and girls’ agency.

我认为，网络中许多人最关心的话题是代理和女孩代理。

So maybe I can ask, Edem, for you to share a bit about what your own experience and interest in joining the network and and what you felt like you were looking for in that, in that space.

因此，Edem，也许我可以请您分享一下您自己加入该网络的经验和兴趣，以及您在该网络中寻找的东西。

And then when I tie that into, you know, the sort of, like, lifespan of the Echidna Global Scholars program, I met previous scholars who had all been, you know, all of us had been delving into girls’ education from different thematic entry points.

然后，当我将其与针鼹全球学者计划的生命周期联系起来时，我遇到了以前的学者，你知道，我们所有人都从不同的主题切入点深入研究女孩的教育。

So whether it was climate, in my case it was, like, gender responsiveness during education in emergencies.

因此，无论是气候，对我来说，都是紧急情况下教育期间的性别敏感度。

People were looking at girls’ education from points of conflict and violence, whether it was teachers and, you know, supporting teachers.

人们从冲突和暴力的角度来看待女童的教育，无论是教师还是支持教师。

So everybody had an entry point.

所以每个人都有一个切入点。

But I think the common strand in all of our research was that, what was that catalytic element, what would put in the hands of girls the ability to, you know, translate a finding into some kind of transformation?

但我认为我们所有研究的共同点是，催化因素是什么，什么能让女孩有能力将一项发现转化为某种转变？

And all of us found that common in all our, across all our research, was that component that really addressed the ability of a girl to dream, to decide, and to drive the transformation.

我们所有人都发现，在我们所有的研究中，共同点是真正解决女孩梦想、决定和推动变革的能力的组成部分。

And it was common whatever subject matter area, you know, your research was centered around.

无论你的研究围绕什么主题领域，这都是很常见的。

And for me, like I said, the world had experienced some massive disruptions.

对我来说，就像我说的，世界经历了一些巨大的混乱。

My research threw a great amount of findings.

我的研究得出了大量的发现。

I didn’t just want to pile it up on the shelf once again or just, you know, disseminate it on some website.

我不想把它再次堆放在架子上，或者只是，你知道，在某个网站上传播它。

I wanted the power of being able to actually bring about change.

我想要能够真正带来改变的力量。

And so at that moment when the idea of LAAGA came about, you know, for me, because LAAGA is a research to action network, and I thought that that was the consolidation of all those desires and aspirations that members, you know, within the network had.

因此，当 LAAGA 的想法出现时，对我来说，因为 LAAGA 是一个从研究到行动的网络，我认为这是网络内成员所有愿望和愿望的巩固。

We wanted to not just throw up findings and bring up evidence.

我们不想只是提出调查结果并提出证据。

We wanted to hold some, you know, reins or have a stake in the ability to, you know, act on those findings.

我们希望掌握一些，你知道的，控制权，或者在根据这些发现采取行动的能力中占有一席之地。

And if you feel like all you can do with your findings is share it with some person in a position of authority or share it with parents, it really leaves you feeling powerless to, you know, do anything about it.

如果你觉得你对你的发现所能做的就是与某个有权威的人分享它或与父母分享它，那真的会让你感到无能为力，你知道，对此做任何事情。

So with LAAGA, we were also positioning ourselves as actual change agents, not just, like, researchers.

因此，对于 LAAGA，我们也将自己定位为真正的变革推动者，而不仅仅是研究人员。

And we’re positioning ourselves in such a powerful way because we were holding the hands of girls, or girls were holding our hands.

我们以如此强大的方式定位自己，因为我们握着女孩的手，或者女孩握着我们的手。

So this guaranteed that we would be the most, like, in terms of direction we would be the most clued in because we would be holding the hands of the real experts on the issues, right, and they would be therefore guiding us.

因此，这保证了我们将是最有方向的，因为我们将握住有关问题的真正专家的手，对吧，因此他们将指导我们。

So it was the perfect compass.

所以这是一个完美的指南针。

So that’s why my immediate instant attraction and why LAAGA resonated with me and I imagine many other, you know, members of the network.

这就是为什么我立刻就被吸引了，也是为什么 LAAGA 引起了我和我想象的许多其他网络成员的共鸣。

And this idea that our problems were common.

我们的问题是普遍存在的。

Or you know, these issues are not, you know, isolated issues.

或者你知道，这些问题并不是孤立的问题。

So it it it increases your confidence that you’re not acting alone in the world.

因此，它会增加你的信心，让你相信自己在世界上并不孤单。

Somebody else understands this challenge.

其他人理解这一挑战。

Somebody’s also committed to acting on this challenge.

有人也致力于应对这一挑战。

And so that galvanizes us further.

这进一步激励我们。

So these were some of the elements that I think LAAGA put together in this wonderful, sort of, like, potpourri and, you know, formed the uniqueness of our network.

我认为这些是 LAAGA 在这个美妙的、有点像百花香中组合在一起的一些元素，你知道，形成了我们网络的独特性。

O’DONOGHUE: You know, I I am gonna pick up on on what you were saying there towards the end about not wanting to be alone in this work.

奥多诺休：你知道，我会继续听听你在最后所说的关于不想独自一人从事这项工作的内容。

And I think, you know, that’s one thing that I’ve really learned and experienced through through LAAGA.

我想，你知道，这是我通过 LAAGA 真正学到和经历的一件事。

And even in these initial conversations, you know, it’s so interesting to me because we talk about the Echidna Global Scholars program is about working with leaders.

即使在这些最初的对话中，你知道，这对我来说也很有趣，因为我们谈论针鼹全球学者计划是关于与领导者合作。

Right?

正确的？

And so many of those leaders resist the idea of being a leader alone.

其中许多领导者抵制单独成为领导者的想法。

Right?

正确的？

Or or this, like, typical or traditional idea, and I I guess probably a very Western or sort of Global North idea of leadership is an individual.

或者这样，典型或传统的想法，我想可能非常西方或北半球的领导力理念是个人。

Right?

正确的？

And and is not part of a a of a collective.

并且 和 不是集体的一部分。

And so I think there was both this real desire of folks to come together and to to really be in a space where you didn’t feel like you were a leader on your own, that you were, you know, with others.

因此，我认为人们真正渴望走到一起，并真正身处一个你不觉得自己是领导者的空间，你知道，你是与他人一起领导的。

And that also, you know, a huge part of leadership is reflection and being being critical about your own work and your own role in the space

而且，你知道，领导力的很大一部分是反思，并对你自己的工作和你自己在这个领域的角色持批判态度

O’DONOGHUE: Exactly.

奥多诺霍：没错。

Yeah.

是的。

Exactly.

确切地。

And I think that for me that was, and has been, one of the the key learnings of LAAGA and we’re going to have a chance to hear more from our colleagues about that as well is, you know, the the work of this network is, you know, we call it a transformation.

我认为，对我来说，这曾经是、也一直是 LAAGA 的关键经验之一，我们将有机会从我们的同事那里听到更多关于这一点的信息，你知道，这个网络的工作就是，你知道，我们称之为转型。

Right?

正确的？

We’re looking for transformation.

我们正在寻求转型。

And that that transformation doesn’t just happen on the ground and with girls and with communities, but it happens in each one of us.

这种转变不仅发生在实地、女孩和社区中，而且发生在我们每个人身上。

Right?

正确的？

And so how do we create that transformative space for ourselves, and that that’s part of the power of the story of LAAGA as well.

那么我们如何为自己创造变革性的空间，这也是 LAAGA 故事力量的一部分。

Right?

正确的？

So coming together to arrive at a shared understanding is a process.

因此，聚集在一起达成共识是一个过程。

But it it prepares you for the real world because we take a very ecosystem approach to the work.

但它可以让你为现实世界做好准备，因为我们在工作中采用了非常生态系统的方法。

Right?

正确的？

So if you can do that within your network and succeed at it, like, you know, managing the the the slow pace of it, managing the tensions that could potentially arise from it, then it prepares you to deal with that kind of process, you know, to really roll out that kind of process in a real world scenario also.

因此，如果你能在你的网络中做到这一点并取得成功，比如，你知道，管理它的缓慢节奏，管理它可能产生的紧张局势，那么它就让你准备好处理这种过程，你知道，在现实世界的场景中也真正推出这种过程。

O’DONOGHUE: Yeah.

奥多诺休：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

And I think we’ve been learning through LAAGA, right, and and with with each other, the LAAGA members and with the girls as well, that this type of transformation is really about people.

我认为我们一直在通过 LAAGA 学习，对吧，以及与彼此、LAAGA 成员以及女孩们一起，这种转变实际上与人有关。

It’s about relationships.

这是关于人际关系的。

You mentioned the ecosystems.

您提到了生态系统。

Right?

正确的？

And and it’s not necessarily saying that the change has to be this or that and and this is how it’s going to happen.

这并不一定意味着变化必须是这样或那样，而且这就是它将会发生的方式。

But really that it’s about strengthening the relationships across an ecosystem.

但实际上，这是为了加强整个生态系统的关系。

That it’s strengthening the ability of an ecosystem to learn, to take action from that learning, and to really get into this cycle of of knowing and doing and—

它正在加强生态系统的学习能力，从学习中采取行动，并真正进入这种知行合一的循环——

And just shifting the approach or the mindset when you think about girls.

当你想到女孩时，只需改变方法或心态即可。

I think that’s one of the most critical things.

我认为这是最关键的事情之一。

So the expert is not the person who’s done the research or who’s been going into communities.

因此，专家并不是进行过研究或深入社区的人。

The expert is a person who is living out the reality.

专家是一个活在现实中的人。

And so front lining that person and, you know, prioritizing that person’s voice in the mix, that just shifts the entire, you know, approach.

因此，在那个人的前线，你知道，在混音中优先考虑那个人的声音，这只会改变整个方法。

Because everywhere in the world, the girl is gonna take the lead in in whatever transformation emerges.

因为在世界各地，无论出现什么转变，女孩都会带头。

O’DONOGHUE: Great.

奥多诺休： 太好了。

I love how you’ve just foregrounded for us our episode on on challenging power dynamics and and really shifting mindsets through that.

我喜欢你刚刚为我们突出了关于挑战权力动态的一集，并通过它真正改变了思维方式。

So, I think I will start to bring us to a close for today because I know you and I could go on and on and talk about agency forever.

所以，我想我将开始结束今天的讨论，因为我知道你和我可以一直继续谈论代理问题。

And I am eager to get our other colleagues in the upcoming episode.

我渴望让我们的其他同事参与下一集。

So really, just to thank you again to to all of the listeners and excited that you’re joining us on this journey where we will be exploring agency, agency as contextual, as relational, as really multidimensional and dynamic.

所以，真的，再次感谢所有的听众，并很高兴你们加入我们的这段旅程，我们将探索代理，代理作为上下文，作为关系，作为真正的多维和动态。

And we will dig into all of that.

我们将深入研究所有这些。

And this idea of of collectiveness, of collective learning, of collective action, of shared purpose, and and really, you know, getting beyond divisions and getting beyond these ideas that sort of pit us against one another to really thinking about about shared purpose.

这种关于集体、集体学习、集体行动、共同目标的想法，而且真的，你知道，超越分歧，超越这些让我们彼此对抗的想法，真正思考共同的目标。

And excited to, you know, continue to to dig into this conversation, this idea that, you know, shared purpose matters more than than shared language.

很兴奋，你知道，继续深入探讨这个对话，这个想法，你知道，共同的目标比共同的语言更重要。

And that if we can come together and learn together and and take action together in ways that really resist and are a form of resistance, right, in a time when when we are sort of told more about our differences than our similarities, when we’re often pitted against one another, that really this podcast will be about coming together and what that means and and what that looks like.

如果我们能够走到一起，一起学习，一起采取行动，以真正抵抗和抵抗的一种形式，对吧，在我们更多地了解我们的差异而不是我们的相似之处的时候，当我们经常互相对抗时，这个播客实际上将是关于走到一起以及这意味着什么，以及它是什么样子的。

Or is it from an economic lens, you want to look at it, you know, is it a matter of the example you shared?

或者是从经济角度来看，你想看一下，你知道，这是你分享的例子的问题吗？

She’s not let out even though she’s, you know, satisfied all the requirements for schooling, but because she couldn’t pay the fees.

即使她满足了所有的入学要求，她也没有被放出来，但因为她付不起学费。

So what does it look like?

那么它是什么样子的呢？

What is it rooted in, in your context?

在你的背景下，它的根源是什么？

We want people to really imagine that.

我们希望人们真正想象这一点。

And we also want people, listeners, to really think about whose voices are centered in this conversation.

我们还希望人们、听众能够真正思考这次对话中谁的声音是中心。

When we’re talking about, you know, girls’ rights to schooling, when you pull up the, you know, television reports or newspaper reports, whose voices do we continue to hear?

当我们谈论女孩受教育的权利时，当你打开电视报道或报纸报道时，我们继续听到谁的声音？

Is it that district commissioner?

是那个区长吗？

Is it that, you know, lawmaker who doesn’t have a grip on what the nuances are on the ground?

是不是那个立法者不了解实际情况的细微差别？

Or are we really hearing from the girls?

或者我们真的收到了女孩们的来信吗？

Are we hearing what their pain points are?

我们是否听到他们的痛点是什么？

Are we hearing what their real, actual challenges are?

我们是否听到他们真正面临的挑战是什么？

Or even grievances, you know?

甚至是委屈，你知道吗？

So whose voices are we centering?

那么我们以谁的声音为中心呢？

Who’s giving space in the room, in the conversation?

谁在房间里、谈话中提供空间？

And that really needs to really prod us also in our different spheres of influence.

这确实需要在我们不同的影响范围内真正激励我们。

You know, what kinds of meaningful, marginal small steps can we take to bring about these kinds of transformations that really confront some of these power dynamics?

你知道，我们可以采取哪些有意义的、边缘性的小步骤来实现真正面对某些权力动态的转变？

So we, if we start from that, then we’ll really connect with these episodes as we share them and, you know, derive a lot of value and benefit for them from them.

因此，如果我们以此为起点，那么当我们分享这些情节时，我们就会真正与这些情节产生联系，并且，你知道，我们会从中获得很多价值并从中受益。

O’DONOGHUE: Yeah.

奥多诺休：是的。

So stay tuned.

所以请继续关注。

We’re gonna be talking about all of this and more over the next seven episodes.

我们将在接下来的七集中讨论所有这些以及更多内容。

I am excited and maybe even just foreground for people that we will get to not just listening to girls, but taking action with girls.

我很兴奋，甚至可能只是人们的前景，我们不仅会倾听女孩的声音，还会与女孩一起采取行动。

And we’ll tell some stories about how things are changing and how girls are really pushing that change, whether that be sort of in their in their community, in their school district, or even in national policy, which is the case of Vietnam.

我们将讲述一些关于事情正在发生变化的故事，以及女孩如何真正推动这种变化，无论是在社区、学区，还是国家政策中，越南就是这样。

So stay tuned for all that and more.

所以请继续关注所有这些以及更多内容。

Thank you so much for joining us.

非常感谢您加入我们。

O’DONOGHUE: Thank you for listening to Embedding Equality in Education , a podcast from the gender equality in and through education team in the Center for Universal Education at Brookings.

奥多诺休：感谢您收听“将平等融入教育”，这是布鲁金斯学会普及教育中心教育团队中性别平等的播客。

Our sincere thanks to all the LAAGA members and others who contributed to this episode.

我们衷心感谢所有 LAAGA 成员和其他为这一集做出贡献的人。

The show is produced and published by the Brookings Podcast Network.

该节目由布鲁金斯播客网络制作和出版。

Thanks to the production team, including Ike Blake, supervising producer; Fred Dews, senior producer; Arushi Sharma, co-producer; Daniel Morales and Teddy Wansink, video producers; and Chris Chang, audio and video producer.

感谢制作团队，包括监制艾克·布莱克； Fred Dews，高级制片人；阿鲁什·夏尔马 (Arushi Sharma)，联合制片人； Daniel Morales 和 Teddy Wansink，视频制作人；以及音频和视频制作人 Chris Chang。

Plus, thanks to Benji Aliaga and Madeline Chandler for their contributions to the show.

另外，感谢本吉·阿利亚加和玛德琳·钱德勒对节目的贡献。

And a very big special thank you to our former senior project assistant and co-producer, Anya Kasubhai, who did so much to get this show launched.

特别感谢我们的前高级项目助理兼联合制片人安雅·卡苏拜 (Anya Kasubhai)，他为这部剧的推出付出了巨大的努力。

Finally, our thanks to the promotions team in the Office of Communications at Brookings.

最后，我们感谢布鲁金斯学会传播办公室的促销团队。

The Brookings Institution is committed to quality, independence, and impact.

布鲁金斯学会致力于质量、独立性和影响力。

We are supported by a diverse array of funders .

我们得到了众多资助者的支持。

In line with our values and policies , each Brookings publication represents the sole views of its author(s).

根据我们的价值观和政策，布鲁金斯学会的每份出版物均代表其作者的唯一观点。

Early Childhood Education Education Access & Equity Education Policy Global Education K-12 Education

幼儿教育 教育机会与公平 教育政策 全球教育 K-12 教育