Bans on screen time will uniquely affect students of color | The TechTank Podcast

[00:00:00] You’re listening to Tech Take, a biweekly podcast from the Brookings Institution exploring the most consequential technology issues of our time.

[00:00:00] 您正在收听 Tech Take，这是布鲁金斯学会的双周播客，探讨我们这个时代最重要的技术问题。

From racial bias in algorithms to the future of work, Tech Take takes big ideas and makes them accessible.

从算法中的种族偏见到工作的未来，Tech Take 采纳了伟大的想法并让它们变得容易理解。

Welcome to the TechTank Podcast.

欢迎来到 TechTank 播客。

I am co-host Nicol Turner Lee, senior fellow and director of the Center for Technology Innovation at the Brookings Institution.

我是布鲁金斯学会技术创新中心高级研究员兼主任尼科尔·特纳·李（Nicol Turner Lee）的共同主持人。

It’s back to school time, people, and cell phones, despite being so ubiquitous among children and teens, they’ve gotten a new rap.

回到学校时代，人和手机，尽管在儿童和青少年中无处不在，但它们已经有了新的说法。

More teachers and parents are speaking about the negative impacts of their use in classrooms.

越来越多的教师和家长正在谈论在课堂上使用它们的负面影响。

Extensive research is demonstrating that cell phones contribute to distractions and diminished levels of learning, while restricted access to cell phones might correlate with better academic outcomes.

大量研究表明，手机会分散注意力并降低学习水平，而限制使用手机可能与更好的学业成绩相关。

And it’s interesting ’cause I don’t think we have enough research yet, but we definitely are seeing a lot of bans policymakers are responding to educators’ concerns.

这很有趣，因为我认为我们还没有足够的研究，但我们确实看到政策制定者针对教育工作者的担忧制定了许多禁令。

Twenty five states, friends, have regulations in place, and seven of the 20 largest school districts are now restricting access to phones during the academic day.

朋友们，25 个州制定了相关规定，20 个最大的学区中的 7 个现在限制在上课期间使用手机。

Phones are getting kicked out of schools.

手机正被学校淘汰。

Generative AI is actually becoming a nuisance in the classroom.

生成式人工智能实际上正在成为课堂上的一个麻烦。

But interestingly enough, the real issue at hand is that is this gonna be a game changer to resolve some of the concerns?

但有趣的是，眼前真正的问题是，这会改变游戏规则来解决一些问题吗？

But more importantly, and you all know that I love researching the digital divide, are we gonna see challenges when it comes to the lack of digital access among students of color and those that are less privileged to have access to technology outside of the home?

但更重要的是，你们都知道我喜欢研究数字鸿沟，当有色人种学生和那些无法在家庭之外获得技术的学生缺乏数字访问时，我们是否会看到挑战？

Listen, how can we best support and protect students through these technological bans?

听着，我们如何通过这些技术禁令最好地支持和保护学生？

So good to be with you this morning, and all of you.

很高兴今天早上能和你们以及你们所有人在一起。

Yeah, this is gonna be great.

是的，这会很棒。

Listen, first of all, all these doctors, I’m intimidated.

听着，首先，所有这些医生，我很害怕。

I’m a doctor, but I feel like I’m doctored to the fourth degree, okay?

我是一名医生，但我感觉我已经被治到了四级，好吗？

But I think today’s conversation is gonna be interesting.

但我认为今天的谈话会很有趣。

But I wanna start with you, Meisha.

但我想从你开始，梅莎。

Dr. Porter, you have spent a lot of time working in and out of schools.

波特博士，您花了很多时间在学校内外工作。

Can you explain what’s happening with these conversations around technology in the classroom right now?

您能解释一下现在课堂上围绕技术的这些对话发生了什么吗？

And I want you to, think about this from just your whole experience, being an educator and administrator.

我希望你从作为一名教育者和管理者的整个经历中思考这一点。

Good [00:04:00] morning, afternoon, whatever time of day we are in all the places we are.

好[00:04:00]早上，下午，无论一天中的什么时间，我们都在我们所在的地方。

Thank you so much for having me.

非常感谢你邀请我。

I think a lot about this, and just from your introduction, Nicol, the bans really come from the conversations about technology has changed pretty dramatically in many, ways.

我对此想了很多，从你的介绍来看，尼科尔，禁令实际上来自于有关技术的对话，它在很多方面都发生了巨大的变化。

When I started in education, when we were talking about technology, we were having very technical conversations that were focused on tools and equipment.

当我开始从事教育工作时，当我们谈论技术时，我们进行了非常技术性的对话，重点是工具和设备。

We weren’t talking about, how we were using them.

我们没有谈论我们如何使用它们。

We were asking, “Do we have enough laptops?

我们问：“我们有足够的笔记本电脑吗？

Are there SMART Boards in every classrooms?

每个教室都有 SMART Board 吗？

I love that because you just said it, right?

我喜欢这个，因为你刚刚说过，对吧？

This is a tool.

这是一个工具。

It’s not necessarily a replacement for a teacher, and I think artificial intelligence has made this more complicated.

它不一定能替代老师，我认为人工智能让这变得更加复杂。

Wouldn’t you agree, Dr. Porter?

波特博士，你不同意吗？

Because AI has come on the scene- Absolutely …

因为人工智能已经出现了——绝对……

and obviously it’s a lot more engaging.

显然它更有吸引力。

the question I have for you before I turn over to Ashley and Desmond is, Dr. Porter, as a former chancellor, when we talk about technology then, as you mentioned, it was, like, more of the devices and the hardware and the pyramid, right?

在我转向阿什利和德斯蒙德之前，我要问你们的问题是，波特博士，作为前财政大臣，当我们谈论技术时，正如您提到的，更多的是设备、硬件和金字塔，对吗？

Today feels different because now we’re talking about applications- Yes …

今天感觉有所不同，因为现在我们正在谈论应用程序 - 是的......

which is not necessarily the hardware.

这不一定是硬件。

It’s what’s on the hardware.

这是硬件上的内容。

Do you think we’re being, a little bit too over-demanding when it comes to these bans by clumping smart boards with, social media?

您是否认为我们通过将智能板与社交媒体聚集在一起来实施这些禁令，是不是要求有点过高了？

Absolutely.

绝对地。

I think that we are moving…

我想我们正在搬家……

we’re either too far left or too far right.

我们要么太左，要么太右。

I think that’s the nature of where we are.

我认为这就是我们所处位置的本质。

I think there is a really important middle ground, and it’s in answering that very question.

我认为有一个非常重要的中间立场，那就是回答这个问题。

How do we wanna use these tools as we’ve used tools in education in the past?

我们如何使用这些工具，就像我们过去在教育中使用工具一样？

How do we wanna use the tools of technology, AI?

我们要如何使用人工智能技术工具？

How do we wanna use it to change the relationship with learning that students and teachers have?

我们如何利用它来改变学生和教师之间的学习关系？

I think that is the big question, and if we just get stuck with the…

我认为这是一个大问题，如果我们只是陷入……

honestly, it’s easy to ban.

老实说，很容易被禁止。

It’s harder to really be thoughtful and intentional about the usage of tools in service of learning, and that’s where I’d really love to see us go.

真正深思熟虑和有意识地使用工具来为学习服务是比较困难的，而这正是我真正希望看到我们前进的方向。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

Ashley, I wanna bring you in because a lot of your work looks at the trends that are affecting Black students in particular, you and Dr. Desmond.

阿什利，我想邀请你加入，因为你的很多工作都着眼于影响黑人学生的趋势，特别是你和德斯蒙德博士。

Talk to me a little bit about how these trends, these bans, are affecting Black students overall when it comes to being very prescriptive.

和我谈谈这些趋势、这些禁令如何影响黑人学生的整体规范性。

Yeah.

是的。

Thank you for the question, Nicol.

谢谢你的提问，尼科尔。

And thanks again for having me with my esteemed colleagues here.

再次感谢您与我尊敬的同事们一起来到这里。

And I [00:08:00] think Dr. Porter really hit the nail on the head, with regard to making sure that we’re having conversations specifically about how technology is being used.

我 [00:08:00] 认为波特博士确实击中要害，确保我们专门就如何使用技术进行对话。

the, the short answer of that is, race shapes the experiences that young people are having generally, right?

简而言之，种族决定了年轻人的普遍经历，对吗？

Socially, particularly in the United States, and their experiences with technology are no different.

在社会方面，尤其是在美国，他们在技术方面的经历也没有什么不同。

And so what we know is that, racial inequity in education has existed pre-technology, and so we have to be very thoughtful about the ways that, Black young people are experiencing classrooms generally, and then also class- or classrooms with and without technology.

所以我们知道，教育中的种族不平等在技术出现之前就已经存在，所以我们必须认真思考黑人年轻人普遍体验课堂的方式，以及有或没有技术的课堂或教室。

And I think that was interesting.

我认为这很有趣。

You wrote about this in one of the blogs at Brookings, which is, in some of the instances where there are bans, Black students tend to receive more disciplinary action.

您在布鲁金斯学会的一个博客中写到了这一点，即在某些有禁令的情况下，黑人学生往往会受到更多的纪律处分。

And you also mentioned, that’s contrary to the use of technology by Black students, where they’re actually using it to form communities.

你还提到，这与黑人学生对技术的使用相反，他们实际上是用它来形成社区。

My daughter was very clear during the pandemic that she used social media to make sure she stayed in touch with her friends and created social connections that buffered the effects of isolation.

我的女儿在大流行期间非常清楚，她使用社交媒体来确保与朋友保持联系，并建立社会联系来缓冲隔离的影响。

Ashley, just going back on you, is that one of the areas in which, we have to also be sensitive with regards to the different cultural nuances?

阿什利，回到你的问题上来，这是否是我们必须对不同文化的细微差别保持敏感的领域之一？

Absolutely.

绝对地。

Black young people have always, have been at the forefront of conversations with regard to technology.

黑人年轻人一直处于技术对话的最前沿。

they have been very integral to building culture and community in online spaces, using it to explore their identities, develop their identities, particularly, during the adolescent years when that is a huge part of adolescent development.

他们对于在网络空间中建立文化和社区非常重要，利用它来探索自己的身份，发展自己的身份，特别是在青少年时期，这是青少年发展的重要组成部分。

They’re using technology to explore their identities, racial and others, and other identities as well.

他们利用技术来探索自己的身份、种族和其他身份，以及其他身份。

they’re using it to access information and connect with people who, again, understand their experiences and share their experiences.

他们用它来获取信息并与人们联系，这些人再次了解他们的经历并分享他们的经历。

And so for young people, for Black young people, we’ve seen technology in social digital spaces, be used as, sources of connection and, cultural affirmation in a lot of ways, and movement building even.

因此，对于年轻人，对于黑人年轻人来说，我们已经看到社交数字空间中的技术被用作联系的来源，并以多种方式进行文化肯定，甚至还建立了运动。

And, they also have experiences with, on the other side of that, racial discrimination, racialized misinformation.

而且，另一方面，他们也有过种族歧视、种族化错误信息的经历。

And so again, there is a very nuanced experiences that Black young people are having online, and I think it’s important for us to resist the notion that young people are experiencing technology, universally the same way.

再说一次，黑人年轻人在网上有一种非常微妙的体验，我认为我们必须抵制年轻人以普遍相同的方式体验技术的观念。

Yeah, and, Desmond, I wanna bring you in, Dr. Patton, ’cause I think this is the groundbreaking research [00:12:00] that you’ve done which is really making sure that we don’t miss these, unique differences that do exist, and diversity that does exist when we’re looking at these universal applications of technology restrictions.

是的，德斯蒙德，我想请你进来，巴顿博士，因为我认为这是你所做的开创性研究 [00:12:00]，它确实确保我们不会错过这些确实存在的独特差异，以及当我们考虑技术限制的这些普遍应用时确实存在的多样性。

And I really love the way your research really talks about building off what Ashley said, like this cultural, building, identity building…which I think is something that we never really talk about when we talk about, technology’s effects on young people.

我真的很喜欢你的研究真正谈论建立阿什利所说的方式，比如文化、建筑、身份建设……我认为当我们谈论技术对年轻人的影响时，我们从未真正谈论过这些。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

first, it’s just really good to be here, and I had to hold myself back from saying amen when Dr. Porter and Dr. Stewart were talking because, what’s abundantly clear is that when we center Black and brown young folks in the conversation changes.

首先，来到这里真是太好了，当波特博士和斯图尔特博士谈话时，我不得不克制自己不要说“阿们”，因为，非常清楚的是，当我们以黑人和棕色人种年轻人为中心的谈话发生变化时。

It become, it becomes more nuanced, it becomes more complicated, and I think we see why bans and restrictions don’t work for everybody.

它变得更加微妙，变得更加复杂，我想我们明白为什么禁令和限制并不适合所有人。

So I’m really happy to be a part of this conversation.

所以我很高兴能参与这次对话。

one of the things that I wanna say is that, my, my work really starts at a different place.

我想说的一件事是，我的工作真的是从一个不同的地方开始的。

what I’ve learned from spending, years with young Black folks is that, w- they are not peripheral users of technology.

我从与年轻黑人相处的多年中学到的是，他们不是技术的外围用户。

Yeah, that’s one of the reasons why I wanted to have this, ’cause I think, the screen time, and, Dr. Porter, I want you to add anything to what Ashley and Desmond have said.

是的，这就是我想要这个的原因之一，因为我想，放映时间，波特博士，我希望你对阿什利和德斯蒙德所说的话添加一些内容。

It’s almost like a very, middle class, framework, right?

它几乎就像一个非常中产阶级的框架，对吧？

When I was growing up, my mother did not want us in front of the television, so what did she do?

在我成长的过程中，妈妈不希望我们坐在电视机前，所以她做了什么？

She sent us outside, and then she enrolled us in all these activities.

她把我们送到外面，然后她给我们报名参加所有这些活动。

I think I did every activity under the sun from Girl Scouts to dance and all these other things.

我想我参加了从女童子军到跳舞和所有其他事情的所有活动。

You are not.

你不是。

I’m, in the amen corner with, everyone.

我和大家一起在阿门角落。

This is such a really important conversation because I think about, Dr. Upton, Dr. Stewart, like amen, right?

这是一次非常重要的对话，因为我想到厄普顿博士、斯图尔特博士，就像阿门一样，对吗？

Like how Black, Brown, rural, poor students experience classrooms and learning generally is what we should be talking about.

就像黑人、棕色人种、农村、贫困学生如何体验课堂和学习一样，这才是我们应该谈论的。

How technology interfaces with that and, the reality is, and you said this, Dr. Stewart School might be the only place that, that some of these students have access to technology, and a ban is a [00:16:00] easy Band-Aid approach to solving a problem that is actually not being solved.

技术如何与之结合，现实是，你说过，斯图尔特博士学校可能是唯一一个地方，其中一些学生可以获得技术，而禁令是一种[00:16:00]简单的创可贴方法，可以解决实际上尚未解决的问题。

What’s really interesting to me, and I actually think it’s comical, politicians who are making these decisions live on social media.

对我来说真正有趣的是，我实际上认为政客们在社交媒体上做出这些决定很滑稽。

They live on social media.

他们生活在社交媒体上。

They message.

他们发消息。

Our mayor got elected because of his strong way to message through social media and TikTok, and guess what?

我们的市长之所以当选，是因为他通过社交媒体和 TikTok 强有力地传达信息，你猜怎么着？

Where young people who were so, excited about his mayorality, guess where they saw them?

那些对他担任市长感到如此兴奋的年轻人，猜猜他们在哪里看到了他们？

On him, on their smartphones.

在他身上，在他们的智能手机上。

And so we have to find a balance and really answer the big question, because we can easily say affluent families make decisions to limit technology at school, but that does not talk about what happens at home and what lived experiences their children are having at home and if they work in industries where, AI is already a, a, a living part of their world.

因此，我们必须找到一个平衡点，真正回答这个大问题，因为我们可以很容易地说，富裕家庭会做出限制学校技术的决定，但这并没有谈论家庭中发生的事情以及他们的孩子在家中的生活经历，以及他们是否在人工智能已经成为他们世界的一部分的行业中工作。

And so we’re not talking about the same conditions, and so we can’t solve for different conditions with the same solutions.

所以我们不是在谈论相同的条件，因此我们无法用相同的解决方案解决不同的条件。

And I take that stance, too.

我也采取这个立场。

I was recently doing a podcast, some of my colleagues, and we were talking about AI exposure and screen exposure to toddlers.

我最近正在做一个播客，我的一些同事，我们正在谈论人工智能的暴露和幼儿的屏幕暴露。

Of course, I think you have to draw the line, even though I did give my kids, a smartphone when they were, like, eight, and then maybe gave them an iPad when they were about five ’cause I was working a lot, right?

当然，我认为你必须划清界限，即使我确实在我的孩子八岁的时候给了他们一部智能手机，然后可能在他们五岁的时候给了他们一台 iPad，因为我工作很多，对吧？

I’m guilty.

我有罪。

But I also think, to your point, parents have to also make some of those decisions around discretion, and I think in some respects when regulators legislate this, they take parents off the hook.

但我也认为，就你的观点而言，父母也必须围绕自由裁量权做出一些决定，而且我认为在某些方面，当监管机构立法时，他们会让父母摆脱困境。

Dr. Patton, I wanna go over to you, right?

巴顿博士，我想去找你，对吗？

Because part of it, too, is you’ve talked about the creativity that comes from access to these communities, much like Dr. Stewart.

因为其中一部分也是你谈到的创造力来自于接触这些社区，就像斯图尔特博士一样。

is there a developmental threshold that you’re seeing in your research that, we should start maybe taking that [00:18:00] seriously versus, doing a universal ban across all grades and ages?

您在研究中是否看到了一个发展阈值，我们应该开始认真对待[00:18:00]，而不是对所有年级和年龄进行普遍禁令？

This is the biggest question that I think is happening across the globe, it’s happening at tech platforms, and I think it is complicated.

我认为这是全球范围内正在发生的最大问题，它发生在科技平台上，而且我认为它很复杂。

We have seen some evidence that says, below 13 we need to have different thresholds, and you see a lot of our tech platforms are making decisions around having new policies and practices for folks who are 13 and above.

我们已经看到一些证据表明，13 岁以下的人需要有不同的阈值，而且你会看到我们的许多技术平台都在为 13 岁及以上的人制定新的政策和做法做出决策。

Sometimes that is- 16 and above, we’re seeing bans or restrictions at that level.

有时是 16 岁及以上，我们会看到该级别的禁令或限制。

And I think, Ashley, that kind of goes back to your comment.

我认为，阿什利，这可以追溯到你的评论。

And one thing that you also mentioned that I wanna make sure we don’t lose sight of, there has to be, some leaning into equity as part of this conversation, and it’s obviously a word that people don’t like to use, but I think goes back to Dr. Desmond’s point around, you can’t necessarily put an age number on it, but you can think through, what the potential uses are.

你还提到，我想确保我们不会忽视一件事，作为这次对话的一部分，必须有一些倾向于公平，这显然是人们不喜欢使用的一个词，但我认为回到德斯蒙德博士的观点，你不一定要在上面加上年龄数字，但你可以想清楚，潜在的用途是什么。

What do you think, Ashley, in terms of that?

阿什利，你对此有何看法？

How does equity show up in this conversation as well?

在这次对话中，公平性又是如何体现的呢？

Yeah, I think that it’s been showing up, at the peripheral, with conversations like these, but I think the [00:20:00] issue is that it isn’t necessarily a part of the design conversations.

是的，我认为它已经在外围出现了，像这样的对话，但我认为 [00:20:00] 问题是它不一定是设计对话的一部分。

And that’s what I was gonna ask you, too, ’cause we did have a big lawsuit settlement come out- where design was part of it.

这也是我要问你的问题，因为我们确实达成了一项重大诉讼和解协议——其中设计是其中的一部分。

So go there, Ashley.

所以去那里吧，阿什利。

Like- …

就像——……

is design enough?

设计够不够？

‘Cause I know you’ve written about that as well.

因为我知道你也写过这件事。

Or, to make sure that there’s equity in how we look at these products.

或者，确保我们公平地看待这些产品。

Yeah, we did see this, this big landmark settlement and, with Meta ensuring that the platforms would lean into some of these, design infrastructure issues.

是的，我们确实看到了这一点，这个具有里程碑意义的重大解决方案，并且 Meta 确保平台能够解决其中的一些设计基础设施问题。

I think one of the big things, though, is that a lot of what we’ve been seeing, at least in, some of these earlier conversations around platform design, was a push toward, parental monitoring.

不过，我认为最重要的事情之一是，我们所看到的很多东西，至少在一些早期围绕平台设计的对话中，都是在推动家长监控。

And if we’re thinking about equity, we’re thinking about, parents’ capacities to, again, monitor their children’s online use in ways that, are significant.

如果我们考虑公平，我们就会考虑父母以重要的方式监控孩子上网行为的能力。

And sometimes that- that’s very hard.

有时，这非常困难。

as you just mentioned, Nicol, parents are working.

正如你刚才提到的，尼科尔，父母正在工作。

We have…

我们有……

That also leaves out, s- students and young people who might be in foster care, right?

这也排除了可能被寄养的学生和年轻人，对吧？

So I think when we think about equity, we have to be, thinking about those students and those young people who are gonna be the most vulner- vulnerable, and designing for those young people, and not thinking about them as, minorities in the conversation.

因此，我认为，当我们考虑公平时，我们必须考虑那些将成为最弱势群体的学生和年轻人，并为这些年轻人进行设计，而不是将他们视为对话中的少数群体。

We have to think about that person as the core audience for some of these platform and design decisions.

我们必须将该人视为某些平台和设计决策的核心受众。

And that’s interesting.

这很有趣。

And, yeah- Yeah, go ahead, Meisha, ’cause I- Yeah, I was gonna- …

而且，是的-是的，继续吧，梅莎，因为我-是的，我要-……

thought I’d ask you, what you thought about that.

我想我应该问你，你对此有何看法。

Yeah, love it.

是的，喜欢它。

again, like I, I wanna push this question beyond technology because, beyond the tools, right?

再说一次，就像我一样，我想把这个问题推到技术之外，因为超越工具，对吧？

Because the other thing is technology isn’t neutral.

因为另一件事是技术不是中立的。

It learns from data, language- images, history, and patterns that already exist.

它从数据、语言图像、历史和已经存在的模式中学习。

And we know that our society hasn’t always seen Black and Brown communities, rural communities, poor communities accurately or through the lens of their assets and brilliance and possibility.

我们知道，我们的社会并不总是准确地或通过他们的资产、才华和可能性来看待黑人和棕色人种社区、农村社区、贫困社区。

So what, how do we ensure [00:22:00] that our voices are part of the inputs and the outputs as well, right?

那么，我们如何确保 [00:22:00] 我们的声音也是输入和输出的一部分，对吗？

How are we ensuring that AI isn’t making the decision, that technology isn’t making a decision about who we are, who our people are, who our students are, which students are gifted, which students need intervention, who’s at risk, right?

我们如何确保人工智能不会做出决定，技术不会做出关于我们是谁、我们的员工是谁、我们的学生是谁、哪些学生有天赋、哪些学生需要干预、谁处于危险之中的决定，对吗？

Like, all of these things when you ask a question, does not necessarily, when you ask a question of an AI tool, it doesn’t necessarily give you a very broad-ranging answer that is inclusive of multiple cultures, experiences, and diverse opinions.

就像，当你问一个问题时，所有这些事情并不一定，当你问一个人工智能工具的问题时，它不一定会给你一个非常广泛的答案，包含多种文化、经验和不同的观点。

And if we are simply banning our voices, our young people, our communities, then we aren’t part of shaping the language.

如果我们只是禁止我们的声音、我们的年轻人、我们的社区，那么我们就不是塑造语言的一部分。

And, that brings me to, I wanna open it up to anybody.

这让我想到，我想向任何人开放。

Like, where should, educators, researchers, scholars like yourselves, are you being invited to these conversations to bring this perspective and bring this input?

就像，像你们这样的教育工作者、研究人员、学者，你们应该在哪里被邀请参加这些对话来提出这种观点并提出这种意见？

It would seem to me, and this is the work we do at the AI Equity Lab at Brookings, that we need more subject matter experts to help shape- Yeah the discourse.

在我看来，这就是我们在布鲁金斯学会人工智能公平实验室所做的工作，我们需要更多的主题专家来帮助塑造——是的，讨论。

Yep, go ahead, Dr. Patton.

是的，继续吧，巴顿博士。

No, I’m so grateful for this conversation [00:24:00] and, as you all were talking, it’s like I need Dr. Porter and Dr. Stewart to be a part of some of the conversations that I’m a part of.

不，我非常感谢这次谈话 [00:24:00]，正如你们大家所说的那样，就像我需要波特博士和斯图尔特博士参与我参与的一些对话一样。

So I sit on safety advisories at Spotify and TikTok and Exxon, and the thing that is consistently missing that is needed is to have use cases.

因此，我在 Spotify、TikTok 和 Exxon 担任安全顾问，但一直缺少的就是用例。

We need use cases, particularly from Black and brown communities, to deeply understand how AI and other emerging tech tools shape the experience directly for Black and brown youth.

我们需要用例，特别是来自黑人和棕色人种社区的用例，来深入了解人工智能和其他新兴技术工具如何直接为黑人和棕色人种青年塑造体验。

And honestly, there is research, but we need evidence-based conversations that show the impact, but also to show it in a multifaceted way.

老实说，有研究，但我们需要基于证据的对话来展示其影响，而且以多方面的方式展示它。

Oftentimes, when we’re talking about tech and Black folks, it’s always about what’s missing, what’s not there.

通常，当我们谈论科技和黑人时，总是谈论缺少什么、不存在什么。

There are also plenty of strengths from our communities in terms of how our young people have been using these tools from the beginning, h- how our young people have been a part of shaping how these tools are used in, just across communities as well.

我们的社区在年轻人如何从一开始就如何使用这些工具方面也有很多优势，我们的年轻人如何参与塑造这些工具在社区中的使用方式。

And so I absolutely need to be calling Dr. Porter and Dr. Stewart into these advising meetings, because we’re missing these cultural nuances.

因此，我绝对需要邀请波特博士和斯图尔特博士参加这些咨询会议，因为我们忽略了这些文化上的细微差别。

We are, and I think we could say, even, And Dr. Porter, I know you have more experience, at least, with Latina students in New York.

我们是，我想我们甚至可以说，波特博士，我知道你至少在纽约的拉丁裔学生方面有更多的经验。

I think these are very applicable to students across the spectrum.

我认为这些对于各个年龄段的学生都非常适用。

Would you agree?

你同意吗？

Absolutely.

绝对地。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

It- this is, this is about students who are not.

这是——这是，这是关于那些不是的学生。

These are- we’re talking about-how are we centering students who are Black, who are brown, who are Asian, who are- who live in rural communities.

这些是——我们正在谈论——我们如何以黑人、棕色人种、亚洲人、生活在农村社区的学生为中心。

How are we centering students, all of our students across the diaspora of learners that we serve?

我们如何以学生为中心，以我们所服务的海外学习者群体中的所有学生为中心？

Yeah.

是的。

Again I’m a developmental scientist by training, and so I think for me, the conversation is about technology, [00:26:00] but it’s also about, development generally, right?

再说一遍，我是一名受过训练的发展科学家，所以我认为对我来说，对话是关于技术的，[00:26:00]，但它也是关于总体发展的，对吗？

And so when I think about development, I’m thinking about systems, right?

所以当我想到开发时，我想到的是系统，对吧？

So it’s their experiences with technology, but it’s also the quality of their experiences outside of online environments.

因此，这是他们的技术体验，也是他们在在线环境之外的体验质量。

And so when we think about things like bans, and taking away these devices, what are we replacing them with?

因此，当我们考虑禁令和拿走这些设备之类的事情时，我们要用什么来取代它们？

How are we ensuring that the experiences that young people are able to have offline, can be, optimized and supported in their overall development, particularly for young Black folks.

我们如何确保年轻人能够获得的线下体验在他们的整体发展中得到优化和支持，特别是对于年轻的黑人。

One of the things that I talked about in one of our articles on, for the Brookings blog was this idea of again, taking away the technology and not necessarily giving young people other spaces to gather, to find community, to build culture, and have some of these conversations.

我在布鲁金斯博客的一篇文章中谈到的一件事是，再次取消技术，不一定为年轻人提供其他空间来聚集、寻找社区、建立文化以及进行一些对话。

And so when I’m thinking about, young people’s experiences with technology, I’m always thinking about their experiences outside of the technology, and that’s one of the things that I think also needs to be uplifted in these conversations as well.

因此，当我思考年轻人对技术的体验时，我总是在思考他们在技术之外的体验，这也是我认为在这些对话中也需要提升的事情之一。

Look, I think I’m gonna join the amen corner ’cause I’m actually working on a piece now which is around really recentering investments in youth development.

听着，我想我要加入阿门角，因为我现在实际上正在写一篇关于青年发展投资的文章。

I think a lot of the challenges that we talk about when it comes to tech, they go right back to all of what you all have been saying, which is, we really lost the eye on the prize when it came to bringing technology into schools, but then also centering it so it became part of pedagogy and practice and behavioral change.

我认为我们在技术方面谈论的很多挑战，都回到了你们所说的，也就是说，当我们将技术引入学校时，我们真的忽视了奖项，但随后又将其集中起来，使其成为教学法、实践和行为改变的一部分。

Because I worry, I’m just gonna put this out there, this is probably…

因为我担心，我就把这个放在那里，这可能是……

I’m gonna have to have you all back, that by taking tech out of schools, we’re not necessarily preparing these young people for the careers that are going to involve tech when they leave school.

我必须让你们所有人回来，通过将科技从学校中剔除，我们不一定能让这些年轻人在离开学校后为涉及科技的职业做好准备。

and what does that look like if you have a whole generation that grew up digital that has to unlearn and then go into a workforce where those skills are actually applicable?

如果整整一代人都是在数字环境下长大的，他们必须忘却所学的知识，然后进入那些真正适用这些技能的劳动力队伍，那会是什么样子呢？

I wanna find out from all of you, what do we do about it?

我想问问大家，我们该怎么办？

At the TechTank podcast, we do try to come up with some solutions.

在 TechTank 播客中，我们确实尝试提出一些解决方案。

Love to [00:28:00] hear from all of you then, what’s the solution?

希望 [00:28:00] 听到大家的意见，解决方案是什么？

Is it a solution to tackle universal bans by doing more research, as Dr. Desmond said?

正如德斯蒙德博士所说，这是否是通过进行更多研究来解决普遍禁令的解决方案？

Is there some validity to being able to reel students in when it comes to screen time?

在屏幕时间方面能够吸引学生是否有效？

Talk to me about, what is it that policymakers need to be paying attention to?

和我谈谈，政策制定者需要关注什么？

I’ll just jump in really quickly.

我会很快介入。

I think, a couple of things.

我想，有几件事。

One is my friend and, colleague Dr. Courtney Cogburn talks a lot about having an untethered imagination.

其中之一是我的朋友兼同事 Courtney Cogburn 博士，他经常谈论如何拥有不受束缚的想象力。

I really think we need to take a step back and think about how do we curate an imagination around the utility of tech for Black and brown folks that is not tethered to whiteness?

我真的认为我们需要退后一步，思考如何为黑人和棕色人种创造一种不受白人束缚的科技实用性想象力？

And I think that is a hard and complicated conversation because it is all around us.

我认为这是一次艰难而复杂的对话，因为它就在我们周围。

But what do we imagine?

但我们想象什么呢？

How do young Black and brown folks imagine their life in a world that is dominated by tech?

年轻的黑人和棕色人种如何想象他们在科技主导的世界中的生活？

And I’m not sure we know enough about that to even think about what the next steps are.

我不确定我们对此是否了解得足够多，甚至无法考虑下一步是什么。

So I would really hope that we, invest in space, that allows for that kind of co-collaboration and that imagination, that play, and that fun to help us, develop some of those, answers and solutions.

所以我真的希望我们投资空间，允许这种合作、想象力、玩耍和乐趣来帮助我们开发其中的一些答案和解决方案。

I actually love that because I think it is a policy recommendation, which is why we’re doing this podcast.

我真的很喜欢这一点，因为我认为这是一项政策建议，这就是我们做这个播客的原因。

We need more evidence-based research.

我们需要更多基于证据的研究。

So I think that is spot on in terms of the topics.

所以我认为这在主题方面是正确的。

Thank you for that.

谢谢你。

Ashley, what do you think?

阿什利，你觉得怎么样？

Yeah, Nicol, really quickly, I wanna go back to your earlier point just really quickly about, young people not being prepared for some of these careers outside of school.

是的，尼科尔，很快，我想很快回到你之前的观点，年轻人没有为校外的某些职业做好准备。

And I, really wanna highlight that point because I think when we do a total ban of technology within schools, we’re sending a message about technology, right?

我真的想强调这一点，因为我认为当我们在学校内全面禁止技术时，我们正在传递有关技术的信息，对吗？

And so what does that mean for young people to, who are moving out of these educational spaces, and, don’t, again, don’t have the, the understanding and the literacies around the technology to be able to have discretion around how they should be using technology and how it should be [00:30:00] designed, and be a part of some of these conversations.

那么，这对于那些正在离开这些教育空间的年轻人来说意味着什么，他们又不具备对技术的理解和素养，无法自行决定如何使用技术以及如何设计技术[00:30:00]，并成为其中一些对话的一部分。

So I just wanted to make that point.

所以我只是想强调这一点。

Yes…

是的……

really, really, quickly.

真的，真的，很快。

I think in terms of what to do moving forward, I think Dr. Patton’s work really highlights this, and he mentioned this too, is just uplifting youth voice, and Dr. Porter mentioned this as well.

我认为就前进的方向而言，我认为巴顿博士的工作确实强调了这一点，他也提到了这一点，只是令人振奋的年轻人的声音，波特博士也提到了这一点。

I think again, including youth, voices in these conversations is gonna be so important.

我再次认为，包括年轻人在内，这些对话中的声音将非常重要。

Historically, we are a community of innovators.

从历史上看，我们是一个创新者社区。

Black folks have always innovated , and young people have always been a part of those conversations.

黑人一直在创新，而年轻人也一直是这些对话的一部分。

And so I think this is a conversation, a policy conversation, that should be no different.

所以我认为这是一次对话，一次政策对话，应该没有什么不同。

And so I’m super excited to, to move some of that work forward, in the next year or so.

因此，我非常兴奋能够在明年左右推进其中一些工作。

But yeah, definitely connecting with young people, talking to young people, and making sure they also have a seat at the table.

但是，是的，肯定要与年轻人建立联系，与年轻人交谈，并确保他们也在谈判桌上占有一席之地。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

Dr. Porter, yes…

波特博士，是的……

and you can respond too to my workforce question.

你也可以回答我的劳动力问题。

I’ve got totally with you on the workforce question.

在劳动力问题上我完全同意你的观点。

That, my concern about bans, my concern is that the future of is, the future of work for young people and who will actually be prepared for it.

我对禁令的担忧是，我担心的是年轻人工作的未来以及谁会真正为此做好准备。

So we are on the same page as always, my sister.

所以我们一如既往地意见一致，我的妹妹。

The world our young people are entering is not gonna be technology-free.

我们的年轻人正在进入的世界不会没有技术。

It’s not going to be AI-free.

它不会没有人工智能。

We know that.

我们知道这一点。

And so we have to make sure that we are thinking about how we are including our young people and making sure they, are not prepared behind, but prepared in front of the future of work.

因此，我们必须确保我们正在考虑如何让我们的年轻人参与进来，并确保他们不是在后面做好准备，而是在未来的工作面前做好准备。

And my answer to the other question about the solution is what, Dr. Patton and Dr. Stewart, I agree, this is like the amen corner over here, we need to be working together.

我对有关解决方案的另一个问题的回答是，巴顿博士和斯图尔特博士，我同意，这就像这里的阿门角，我们需要共同努力。

We need policymakers, we need employers, we need tech companies, we need community leaders, we need researchers, we need parents, we need students.

我们需要政策制定者，我们需要雇主，我们需要科技公司，我们需要社区领袖，我们需要研究人员，我们需要家长，我们需要学生。

We need all of these folks to be together in a room and answer, answering the questions: What is changing about the world of work?

我们需要所有这些人聚集在一个房间里并回答以下问题：工作世界正在发生什么变化？

What will young people need to know and be able to do?

年轻人需要知道什么并能够做什么？

And guess what?

你猜怎么着？

Young people are thinking about the answers to those questions [00:32:00] for themselves.

年轻人正在为自己思考这些问题的答案[00:32:00]。

So we don’t live in a world where we need to answer that for them.

所以我们生活的世界不需要我们为他们回答这个问题。

We need to answer that with them.

我们需要和他们一起回答这个问题。

We don’t need to be answering for communities of color, for rural, for communities.

我们不需要为有色人种社区、农村、社区负责。

We don’t need to be answering for them how they should use technology.

我们不需要为他们回答他们应该如何使用技术。

We need to be having those conversations with them because they are thinking about it.

我们需要与他们进行这些对话，因为他们正在考虑这个问题。

And so I think the path forward is let’s stop just simple banning things and let’s really engage in meaningful, thoughtful, productive, outcome-centered conversations that lead to how we use tools, how we use technology in very real ways to change the way learning happens.

因此，我认为前进的道路是让我们停止简单的禁止事物，让我们真正参与有意义的、深思熟虑的、富有成效的、以结果为中心的对话，从而引导我们如何使用工具、如何以非常真实的方式使用技术来改变学习的方式。

Yeah, I love it.

是的，我喜欢它。

I think all of the conversation so far has been so constructive.

我认为到目前为止所有的谈话都是非常有建设性的。

It’s done exactly what I think, we need to do in these really hard, I think somebody said complicated conversations, which is to bring people together that understand young people, and young people themselves to the table, bringing them.

这正是我所想的，我们需要在这些方面做非常努力的事情，我想有人说过复杂的对话，那就是将理解年轻人的人聚集在一起，让年轻人自己坐到谈判桌前，把他们带到一起。

But really thinking hard about, what is it that we’re creating that may have unintended consequences in the future.

但认真思考一下，我们正在创造的是什么可能会在未来产生意想不到的后果。

Wow, you all were excellent.

哇，你们都很棒。

Thank you so much for joining us.

非常感谢您加入我们。

Thanks again for having us.

再次感谢您邀请我们。

This was amazing.

这太棒了。

Thank you for having us.

感谢您拥有我们。

What a great conversation.

多么棒的谈话啊。

I know.

我知道。

I just see more work coming out of CTI on this.

我只是看到 CTI 在这方面开展了更多工作。

So, let’s go.

那么，我们走吧。

So, I wanna thank all of you for joining me and discussing this, your important research that you’re doing, and the work and opinions that I think contributed to a really substantive conversation today.

所以，我要感谢你们所有人加入我并讨论这个问题，你们正在做的重要研究，以及我认为对今天真正实质性对话做出贡献的工作和观点。

Please, folks, explore the work of Dr. Porter, Dr. Desmond, Dr. Ashley.

各位，请探索波特博士、德斯蒙德博士、阿什利博士的工作。

In addition to more content on this topic at the Brookings TechTank blog through brookings.edu.

除了有关此主题的更多内容之外，还可以通过 brookings.edu 访问 Brookings TechTank 博客。

This concludes another insightful episode of the TechTank podcast, where we make bits into palpable bites.

TechTank 播客的另一个富有洞察力的一集到此结束，我们将比特变成明显的咬痕。

And until next time, thank you for listening.

下次再见，谢谢您的聆听。