What’s lost when reporters leave China?

How do you tell China’s story when journalism in China is so limited?

当中国的新闻业如此有限时，您如何讲述中国故事？

What is lost when so few reporters remain?

当剩下的记者如此之少时，会失去什么？

Ryan Hass and Jon Czin sit down with former China correspondent Jane Perlez to discuss her favorite beats and stories, the difficulties of reporting in China, how Beijing steers foreign coverage toward “shiny bauble” stories, and the importance of people-to-people exchange between the U.S. and China.

瑞安·哈斯 (Ryan Hass) 和乔恩·钦 (Jon Czin) 与前驻华记者简·佩雷斯 (Jane Perlez) 坐下来讨论她最喜欢的节奏和故事、在中国报道的困难、北京如何引导外国报道转向“闪亮的小玩意”故事，以及中美民间交流的重要性。

Today, we have a special guest.

今天，我们有一位特殊的客人。

Jane Perlez is joining us.

简·佩雷斯即将加入我们。

Jane spent three decades as a foreign correspondent for The New York Times , including seven years in China as a correspondent and bureau chief.

简在《纽约时报》担任驻外记者三十年，其中七年在中国担任记者和分社社长。

During that time, Jane and I spent much time in the lobby of the Kempinski Hotel drinking tea and sharing stories, and I’ve been blessed to have her as a friend ever since.

那段时间，我和简花了很多时间在凯宾斯基酒店的大堂喝茶、分享故事，从那时起我很幸运能有她这样的朋友。

Jane won a Pulitzer Prize for her reporting with staff from The Times on rising violence in Pakistan and Afghanistan in 2009.

2009 年，简因与《泰晤士报》工作人员一起报道巴基斯坦和阿富汗不断升级的暴力事件而获得普利策奖。

Today, she is an expert podcast host herself, with her award-winning pod, Face-Off: The U.S. vs. China , with Rana Mitter.

如今，她自己也是一名专业播客主持人，与拉纳·米特 (Rana Mitter) 合作推出了屡获殊荣的播客《对峙：美国与中国》。

She’s also a fellow at the Belfer Center, and we are delighted that you are with us here today, Jane.

她也是贝尔弗中心的研究员，我们很高兴你今天和我们在一起，简。

So I think the starting point has to be that the state of journalism in China right now is pretty bleak, despite some of the valiant efforts of our colleagues who are still on the ground there.

因此，我认为，首先的出发点是，尽管我们仍在当地的同事做出了一些勇敢的努力，但目前中国新闻业的状况相当黯淡。

There’s just a small number of foreign correspondents who are actually still in the country and able to do really good reporting.

只有少数外国记者实际上仍在该国并能够做出真正好的报道。

I mean, this is illustrated most recently by by the expulsion of your colleague Vivian Wong from The New York Times.

我的意思是，最近你的同事 Vivian Wong 被《纽约时报》开除就说明了这一点。

Right?

正确的？

And when you read about China today, I feel like a lot of the conversation is either bi— it’s bimodal.

当你今天读到有关中国的文章时，我觉得很多对话要么是双向的，要么是双峰的。

Right?

正确的？

You either have stories about how China is overtaking us in advanced technologies, the gleaming infrastructure, right, how advanced they are.

你要么有关于中国如何在先进技术、闪闪发光的基础设施方面超越我们的故事，对吧，它们有多先进。

Or you get kind of the mirror image of this, right, where China is collapsing.

或者你会看到中国正在崩溃的情况的镜像，对吧。

They have demographic problems, they are in decline, they’re brittle, and they’re one step away from from folding.

它们存在人口问题，正在衰落，脆弱，离破产仅一步之遥。

And in some ways, you know, there’s elements of both of those caricatures that have some truth to them.

在某些方面，你知道，这两幅漫画的某些元素都有一定的道理。

Right?

正确的？

Which I think is more part of what makes it challenging to tell the story adequately.

我认为这更多地是充分讲述这个故事的挑战性的原因。

So Jane, what we really want to do is dive into your experiences about what it was like to be a correspondent on the ground and trying to tell these stories and get a grasp of them, and see how we can accurately understand such a multifaceted, dynamic country as China, where we have so little visibility from the outside.

所以，简，我们真正想做的是深入了解你作为驻地记者的经历，并试图讲述这些故事并掌握它们，看看我们如何才能准确地了解像中国这样一个多方面的、充满活力的国家，而我们从外部的了解很少。

So one of the stories I wrote about that actually never, I didn’t write it.

所以我写的一个故事实际上从来没有，我没有写。

Never saw the light of day.

从未见过曙光。

At about that time, as you remember, Ryan, the Chinese were training civilian boat owners to join their Coast Guard to try and push American ships out of the way, basically.

瑞安，你记得，大约在那个时候，中国人正在训练民间船主加入他们的海岸警卫队，基本上试图将美国船只推开。

And we found out that, we have no idea how this happened, but the secret services found out that we were talking to one of the civilians involved in this training exercise, and we had to cancel the story altogether.

我们发现，我们不知道这是如何发生的，但特勤局发现我们正在与参与这次训练演习的一名平民交谈，我们不得不完全取消这个故事。

So that is a simple illustration of how tough it could be and is to report in China on anything that touches on the U.S. relationship or anything that touches on China qua China.

因此，这简单地说明了在中国报道任何涉及美国关系或涉及中国的事情是多么艰难。

It’s very tough indeed.

确实非常艰难。

So we went up to the border with Dandong.

于是我们就到了丹东边境。

As you know, Dandong is the big border town between China and North Korea.

众所周知，丹东是中朝边境大城。

And we prepared pretty well.

我们准备得很好。

We knew that North Korea was making a lot of money out of the textile industry, and that Chinese firms in Dandong were sending money down to Pyongyang to finance textile companies that could make clothes even cheaper than they were being made in China.

我们知道朝鲜从纺织业赚了很多钱，而丹东的中国公司正在向平壤提供资金，为纺织公司提供资金，这些公司可以生产比中国制造的衣服更便宜的衣服。

And by the way, sewing in Made in China labels, which of course was a breach of all kinds of protocols, but that doesn’t matter.

顺便说一句，缝制“中国制造”标签，这当然违反了各种协议，但这并不重要。

So I went up to Dandong with Yu Fan, who was one of our eight fantastic, amazing researchers.

所以我和于凡一起去了丹东，他是我们八位出色的研究人员之一。

The great undertold story about reporting in China is that you usually have an amazing Chinese reporter with you, especially for someone like myself who doesn’t really speak Chinese.

关于在中国进行报道，一个鲜为人知的故事是，你身边通常有一位出色的中国记者，尤其是对于像我这样不太会说中文的人来说。

But Yu Fan is now of course a PhD and is now into a whole other career, just left Washington to go to Paris, but that’s another story.

但于凡现在当然是一名博士，现在已经进入了一个完全不同的职业，刚刚离开华盛顿去了巴黎，但那是另一回事了。

We went up to Dandong, and we had organized to meet a a central figure in this textile business.

我们去了丹东，并组织会见了这个纺织行业的一位核心人物。

And we got to the airport in Dandong, and we were met by six cars full of young, but obviously MSS, security people, who followed us everywhere we went.

我们到达了丹东机场，迎接我们的是六辆车，车上满是年轻人，但显然是 MSS，保安人员，无论我们走到哪里，他们都跟着我们。

We went to various factories in Dandong, and then Yu Fan had a lunch date with a woman who was pivotal in this whole exercise.

我们去了丹东的各个工厂，然后于凡与一位在整个演习中发挥关键作用的女性共进午餐。

She was sort of the moneybags between Dandong and Pyongyang.

她有点像丹东和平壤之间的富翁。

So we had to figure out a way where we could get the lunch date with Miss Moneybags.

所以我们必须想办法与钱袋小姐共进午餐。

So fortunately, she was going to be in a pizza joint in a shopping mall, and I sat in a coffee shop opposite the pizza joint, and Yu Fan was able to go in there, talk to her, and she told him, “Well, every month I pack my backpack with $100,000, crisp U.S. notes, and take them on the eight-hour journey down to Pyongyang on the train.”

幸运的是，她要去购物中心的一家披萨店，而我坐在披萨店对面的一家咖啡店，于凡可以进去和她说话，她告诉他，“好吧，每个月我都会在背包里装上10万美元的清晰美国纸币，然后带着它们乘坐火车前往平壤八小时的旅程。”

So we were very pleased to have that story.

所以我们很高兴听到这个故事。

I mean, the story was much more than that.

我的意思是，这个故事远不止于此。

But to actually talk to someone who actually delivered the goods was very interesting.

但与真正交付货物的人交谈是非常有趣的。

Unfortunately, he got sick, and he was sort of semi-detained by 2016 and passed away.

不幸的是，他生病了，到 2016 年他处于半拘留状态并去世了。

I’ve always felt it was because of the pressure from the regime.

我一直觉得这是来自政权的压力。

But then there are other people, of course, in think tanks, which are the obvious go-to place.

当然，智囊团里还有其他人，这是显而易见的去处。

Some of these think tank people would try to impress Western reporters, I think, with their sort of pseudo criticism of the regime, which I always discarded.

我认为，其中一些智库人士会试图通过对政权的虚假批评来给西方记者留下深刻印象，而我总是拒绝这样做。

There were academics, some of whom were for real and others who were not so for real.

有一些学者，其中一些是真正的，而另一些则不是真正的。

But there was one academic who was actually quite a nationalist, but I found always very consistent.

但有一位学者实际上是一位民族主义者，但我发现他总是非常一致。

I don’t know if you remember, but in 2018, it leaked a little bit early that Xi Jinping was going to cancel all term limits, and he was going to become dictator for life.

不知道你是否还记得，2018年，有消息提前透露，习近平将取消所有任期限制，他将成为终身独裁者。

So as soon as I heard this, before the official announcement, I called this academic, who was quite a nationalist, and I told him what I knew.

所以我一听到这个消息，在正式宣布之前，就给这位颇具民族主义色彩的学者打电话，把我所知道的情况告诉了他。

And there was long silence at the other end of the phone, and then he hung up.

电话那头沉默良久，然后挂断了电话。

So I knew from that that this was serious, and that he didn’t know about it, and that he was quite taken aback.

所以我从那里知道事情很严重，而且他不知道这件事，而且他很吃惊。

So there are things like that that you can judge.

所以有些事情你可以判断。

It’s not that too different from here.

与这里并没有太大不同。

My my last recollection is that there were about two dozen U.S. journalists on the ground.

我最后的记忆是，现场大约有两打美国记者。

What’s your sense of of how big the full scope of Western journalists altogether is right now in China.

您对目前在中国的西方记者的整体规模有多大的看法？

And basically, there are few because, if I can say, the Trump administration decided in the first term, towards the end of the first term, to kick out a lot of Chinese journalists here because they said that they were reporting to MSS, which I have no doubt some were writing notes to MSS, but my argument would be, why not have them right in front of you here in the United States so you can see what they’re writing rather than kick them out?

基本上，很少是因为，如果我可以说，特朗普政府在第一任期内决定驱逐这里的很多中国记者，因为他们说他们正在向MSS报告，我毫不怀疑其中一些人正在向MSS写笔记，但我的论点是，为什么不让他们在美国就在你面前，这样你就可以看到他们在写什么，而不是把他们赶出去？

And it was, and it was clear as daylight, as soon as they kicked out these journalists, you know, China would do the same, which they did.

事实确实如此，而且很明显，一旦他们驱逐了这些记者，你知道，中国也会做同样的事情，他们也这么做了。

So now there are about about 30 Western journalists.

所以现在大约有30名西方记者。

The New York Times has one, down from eight when I was there with equal number of researchers.

《纽约时报》有一个，而我在那里时有同样数量的研究人员，有八个。

The Wall Street Journal has one.

《华尔街日报》有一篇。

The Washington Post has none, zero.

《华盛顿邮报》没有，零。

Bloomberg and Reuters have about five to seven each.

彭博社和路透社各有大约五到七个。

The Brits get it easier.

英国人更容易做到这一点。

The Economist and the FT have about five each.

《经济学人》和《金融时报》各有大约五篇文章。

And then there’s Le Monde, El País, and a couple of European papers.

然后还有《世界报》、《国家报》和几家欧洲报纸。

It’s very, very few for a country of 1.4 billion people.

对于一个拥有 14 亿人口的国家来说，这是非常非常少的。

They like to control everything, and one way I discovered recently, they invite TV journalists from Britain and the United States for short tours of the shiny bauble beat.

他们喜欢控制一切，我最近发现的一种方式是，他们邀请来自英国和美国的电视记者来短暂参观闪亮的小玩意。

Then I think they empower people like Kaifu Lee, the tech titan who recently invited a group of people to China, and according to a column by Michael Isikoff, the journalist who was on this trip, it was Michael Isikoff and one other, Jon Finer, who you might qualify as journalists.

然后我认为他们赋予像李开复这样的人权力，这位科技巨头最近邀请了一群人来中国，根据这次旅行的记者迈克尔·伊西科夫(Michael Isikoff)的一篇专栏，迈克尔·伊西科夫和另一位乔恩·费纳(Jon Finer)，你可能有资格成为记者。

And it, when it came to meeting with the head of one of the Alibaba, Kaifu Lee said, “No, Jon Finer and Michael Isikoff, you can’t go to that.”

当谈到与阿里巴巴一位负责人会面时，李开复说：“不，乔恩·费纳和迈克尔·伊西科夫，你不能去那个地方。”

Now, Vivian Wang, who was a New York Times reporter until she was expelled recently, and we can go into the reasons of why, which really had, in the end, wasn’t so much about Vivian, but about something else, which I’ll explain.

现在，薇薇安·王（Vivian Wang），她是《纽约时报》的一名记者，最近被开除，我们可以探讨其中的原因，归根结底，这并不是关于薇薇安，而是其他一些事情，我将对此进行解释。

But Vivian tried very hard, and succeeded in some ways, to get the feelings of ordinary people into her coverage.

但薇薇安非常努力，并在某些方面取得了成功，将普通人的感受融入到她的报道中。

I think one of her classic pieces was Auntie Xu Min, which was a story of, about a woman who was 55 years old, got fed up with her husband, got fed up with keeping house, got in her car, and recorded her adventures as she drove around China.

我认为她的经典作品之一是《徐敏阿姨》，这是一个关于一个55岁的女人的故事，讲述了一个55岁的女人厌倦了她的丈夫，厌倦了持家，上了她的车，记录了她开车环游中国的冒险经历。

By the way, criticizing the divorce laws, criticizing the sexist atmosphere, giving a really, raw idea of what she really felt.

顺便说一句，批评离婚法，批评性别歧视气氛，表达了她真实感受的真实、原始的想法。

And Vivian could do this in a way because there it was on social media.

薇薇安可以通过某种方式做到这一点，因为它存在于社交媒体上。

But to do that in a one-on-one or in a group with other women, very impossible.

但要在一对一或与其他女性团体中做到这一点，是非常不可能的。

But in the end, as we understand it, what happened was DealBook, which is a a branch of the business desk at The New York Times , has a big conference at the end of each year.

但最终，据我们了解，发生的事情是DealBook，它是《纽约时报》业务部的一个分支机构，每年年底都会举办一次大型会议。

And last November, they invited the president of Taiwan to address the conference, by video by the way, not in, not in human flesh, just by video.

去年11月，他们邀请台湾总统在会议上讲话，顺便说一下，通过视频，不是在，不是以人肉，只是通过视频。

And this apparently angered someone in the high stratosphere, either of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs or someone else, and they were after The New York Times , and it resulted in the expulsion of Vivian.

这显然激怒了高层人士，无论是外交部还是其他人，他们都在追捕《纽约时报》，结果导致了维维安被驱逐。

Well, we get to Guizhou, and the first afternoon was absolutely fantastic.

好吧，我们到了贵州，第一个下午真是太棒了。

Somehow, a primary school found out that we were there, and they invited us into the classroom, and we talked to the class, and they practiced their English, and everything was fine.

不知怎的，一所小学发现了我们在那里，他们邀请我们进入教室，我们和全班同学交谈，他们练习英语，一切都很好。

And then, of course, the next morning when we went to the film set, the local police had found out that we were there, and we were shoved out of town before we could watch the making of the film, and another story canceled.

当然，第二天早上，当我们去片场时，当地警察发现了我们在那里，我们在观看电影制作之前就被赶出了城，另一个故事也被取消了。

But I’m going to tell you a story about something that could have been written easily from outside China, but I actually went to the place where it was happening and I learned a lot.

但我要告诉你们一个故事，这个故事在中国以外很容易写出来，但我实际上去了它发生的地方，我学到了很多东西。

And you’re going to laugh at this, but it was the first announcement by Xi Jinping, the Belt and Road Initiative.

你可能会嘲笑这一点，但这是习近平首次宣布“一带一路”倡议。

And he went to Astana in Kazakhstan.

他去了哈萨克斯坦的阿斯塔纳。

And I went.

我去了。

And I was in the small university auditorium where he was speaking.

我当时在他演讲的大学小礼堂里。

And I was in the back row.

我坐在后排。

And to my right were all the Chinese journalists who’d come to cover him with Qin Gang, who was still the spokesman for the foreign ministry.

在我右边的是所有前来采访他的中国记者，秦刚当时还是外交部发言人。

And down in the front was Wang Huning.

走在最前面的是王沪宁。

And Xi Jinping makes his speech about this great thing that they’re going to unveil, and in the middle of it, all the journalists are taking pictures and they’ve got their laptops, and Xin Gang takes down one of the laptops to Wang Huning and shows it to Wang Huning and gives him a couple of images of Xi Jinping, and Wang Huning points and he obviously chooses this one.

习近平就他们将要揭晓的一件伟大的事情发表讲话，在中间，所有的记者都在拍照，他们都拿到了笔记本电脑，辛刚把其中一台笔记本电脑拿下来给王沪宁，给王沪宁看了，给了他几张习近平的照片，王沪宁指出，他显然选择了这个。

So you sort of saw how they operated, and to be honest with you, it wasn’t too different from the State Department.

所以你大概看到了他们的运作方式，说实话，这与国务院没有太大不同。

And as I try to think about some of the narratives or groups that are really driving some of these discussions, I think that there are a group of people who genuinely believe that it’s important to inflate the threat that China poses to the United States in order to mobilize and energize the American public behind rallying to confront a external challenger.

当我试图思考真正推动这些讨论的一些叙述或团体时，我认为有一群人真诚地认为，夸大中国对美国构成的威胁非常重要，以便动员和激励美国公众团结起来对抗外部挑战者。

I think that there are others who want to sell a narrative that China is on its last legs, that it is weak and fragile, and that with one swift, hard push, we can sort of buckle China into the place that it deserves to be in their view.

我认为还有一些人想要兜售这样一种说法，即中国已经走到了最后一步，它是软弱而脆弱的，只要迅速而有力地推动，我们就可以将中国推向他们认为应有的位置。

And then there’s this new group of people who are, you know, sort of referred to as “China-maxxers,” people who are streamers who go to China and are just dazzled by Chongqing and fast trains and dark factories and everything else.

然后还有一群新的人，你知道，他们被称为“China-maxxers”，他们是去中国的主播，对重庆、高铁、黑暗工厂和其他一切感到眼花缭乱。

What is the common thread of all these groups is that they provide a clean, clear narrative that is intended to sort of elicit a a reaction or an emotional response.

所有这些团体的共同点是，他们提供了干净、清晰的叙述，旨在引起某种反应或情感反应。

But the problem is that these narratives lack texture, they lack nuance, they lack that that sort of, you know, dirt underneath your fingernail feel for what’s going on.

但问题是这些叙述缺乏质感，缺乏细微差别，缺乏那种指甲底下的污垢对正在发生的事情的感觉。

And I worry that it leads us down paths of miscalculation.

我担心它会导致我们误判。

And the start of the Trump administration, I think, will go down in history as a vivid example of this, where there was this faith inside the Trump administration that as Secretary Bessent said, China was holding a pair of twos.

我认为，特朗普政府的上任将作为一个生动的例子载入史册，特朗普政府内部有这样一种信念，正如贝森特国务卿所说，中国拿着一对二。

That they were weak and fragile, and with enough pressure and a strong enough push, they would buckle to American demands, which history has proven wrong in vivid detail.

他们软弱而脆弱，只要有足够的压力和足够强大的推动力，他们就会屈服于美国的要求，而历史已经生动地证明了这是错误的。

But Jon, you know, you might want to add to this, but I just wanted to sort of see how that sits with you, Jane, how you react to to that.

但是乔恩，你知道，你可能想补充这一点，但我只是想看看你对此有何看法，简，你对此有何反应。

I think what’s really striking sometimes too is sometimes you get two of those streams cohabitating, right?

我认为有时真正令人震惊的是有时你会看到其中两个流同时存在，对吗？

Like, I think this has been one of the really interesting wrinkles, especially as the Trump administration has had to walk back from being more hawkish on China because it turned out China had a better hand than a pair of twos.

就像，我认为这是真正有趣的问题之一，特别是特朗普政府不得不放弃对中国更强硬的态度，因为事实证明中国比两个国家有更好的牌力。

Right?

正确的？

You have cohabitating this notion that China, on the one hand, is formidable, it’s ubiquitous, it’s a threat everywhere.

你有这样的观念：一方面，中国是强大的，它无处不在，它是无处不在的威胁。

And number two, that they’re also one push away from totally collapsing.

第二，它们离完全崩溃只有一步之遥。

Right?

正确的？

So if you try to land somewhere in between, you’ll end up getting a lot of criticism.

因此，如果你试图介于两者之间，你最终会受到很多批评。

And if you try to say, “No, there is a formidable threat there, but there are real deficiencies, there’s real dysfunction in the system, right, that space for having a real conversation about it, gets kind of squeezed out.

如果你试图说：“不，那里存在着巨大的威胁，但系统确实存在缺陷，存在真正的功能障碍，对吧，对此进行真正对话的空间就被挤出了。

So Jane, what are your thoughts about some of these misperceptions of China or misapprehensions?

那么，简，您对这些对中国的误解或误解有何看法？

I find even, I shouldn’t say this, but even in Cambridge at Harvard University where I’m at the Kennedy School producing this podcast, people who are not studying China outside the China thought bubble, there’s very little real knowledge.

我什至发现，我不应该这么说，但即使是在哈佛大学的剑桥，也就是我在肯尼迪学院制作这个播客的地方，那些不在中国思想泡沫之外研究中国的人，也几乎没有真正的知识。

In New York City, which you think of as being the most cosmopolitan place in the world, outside the Chinese American community and the academic community, there’s also very little knowledge, and I’m sorry to say, not that much interest.

在纽约，你认为是世界上最国际化的地方，除了华裔社区和学术界之外，人们的知识也很少，我很遗憾地说，没有那么多兴趣。

So I often tell the story, we had a dinner party at our place in Manhattan last year.

所以我经常讲这个故事，去年我们在曼哈顿的家里举办了一次晚宴。

There were literary agents, there were lawyers, there were people in the film business there.

那里有文学经纪人、律师、电影界人士。

And there was a very short conversation about China in which somebody piped up and said, “Well, does China have nuclear weapons?”

在一次关于中国的简短对话中，有人尖声问道：“那么，中国有核武器吗？”

So the bank of knowledge is so low, and I think we just need to do more to get more people knowledgeable, starting with more Americans going to college and university in China.

因此，知识库如此之低，我认为我们需要做更多的事情来让更多的人有知识，首先让更多的美国人去中国上大学。

Two-thousand American university students in China compared to 300,000 Chinese students here.

两千名美国大学生在中国，而中国有 30 万学生。

I don’t know how to explain that or what word to use, but it’s very pathetic.

我不知道该怎么解释，也不知道该用什么词，但这很可悲。

We don’t talk about the unemployment in China.

我们不谈论中国的失业问题。

We don’t talk about the women who are totally cut out of the senior political stratosphere.

我们不谈论那些完全被排除在高级政治平流层之外的女性。

Zero women on the standing committee.

常务委员会中女性为零。

Zero women on the Politburo.

政治局委员中女性人数为零。

It’s worse than it has ever been.

情况比以往任何时候都更糟。

And these are very interesting issues that would be great to have some discussion about, rather than just black and white, or they’re bad, we’re good.

这些都是非常有趣的问题，值得进行一些讨论，而不仅仅是黑白分明，或者它们很糟糕，我们很好。

So I think there would be a very interesting beat in talking about why women are excluded, why the Xi Jinping regime is so reactionary.

所以我认为谈论为什么女性被排除在外、为什么习近平政权如此反动会是一个非常有趣的话题。

They’re making it harder to get divorced.

他们让离婚变得更加困难。

and women are reacting by saying, We don’t want to get married.

女性的反应是，我们不想结婚。

We don’t want to have children.

我们不想生孩子。

And they’re also reacting in a very interesting way I have a friend who’s a great tech reporter during the day, and at night she’s a comedian.

他们的反应也非常有趣，我有一个朋友，她白天是一位出色的科技记者，晚上她是一位喜剧演员。

And she goes to places and she rips the hell out of the regime on women issues.

她去了很多地方，在妇女问题上彻底推翻了政权。

And she’s not alone.

她并不孤单。

There are women comedians who are taking this issue to the stage in a very comedic way.

有些女喜剧演员以一种非常喜剧的方式将这个问题搬上舞台。

That would be my first story.

那将是我的第一个故事。

And I have to say, you know, we’re surveilled a lot when we’re in China, especially now, much more than when I was there.

我不得不说，你知道，我们在中国的时候受到了很多监视，尤其是现在，比我在那里的时候要多得多。

But a lot of this fear of the surveillance is maybe more in our minds.

但对监视的更多恐惧可能更多地存在于我们的脑海中。

I mean, they follow you everywhere, and they sometimes they sit in interviews.

我的意思是，他们到处跟着你，有时他们也会接受采访。

But a friend of mine said a lot of this fear of surveillance is perhaps atmosphere, and the real surveillance is just, is is less.

但我的一个朋友说，这种对监视的恐惧很多可能是气氛，而真正的监视只是，很少。

There’s a tendency among Chinese not to talk to foreign correspondents because they’re fearful, and that would be important to break that down.

中国人有一种不与外国记者交谈的倾向，因为他们害怕，而打破这种局面很重要。

And the effect it is having on creating a perception in the United States of China either as a tech colossus or as a monolith, when in fact, as I think this conversation has exposed, there’s a lot of undercurrents in China.

它对在美国塑造中国作为科技巨头或巨头的印象产生了影响，而事实上，正如我认为这次谈话所暴露的那样，中国存在很多暗流。

There’s a lot of social transformation that is not yet settled inside China, and the societal factors are upstream of politics, and politics will drive the direction of the country.

中国国内还有很多社会转型尚未解决，而社会因素是政治的上游，政治将驱动国家的走向。

And if we lose sight of those things, we do so at our own expense and risk.

如果我们忽视了这些事情，我们就要自行承担费用和风险。

And so I can’t thank you enough for helping to draw attention to that and and to raise our awareness of of the limitations of what we’re seeing.

因此，我非常感谢你们帮助引起人们对这一问题的关注，并提高我们对我们所看到的局限性的认识。

Our thanks to the production team, including supervising producer Ike Blake, senior producer Fred Dews, producer Allie Matthias, and video producers Chris Chang, Daniel Morales, and Teddy Wansink.

我们感谢制作团队，包括监督制片人 Ike Blake、高级制片人 Fred Dews、制片人 Allie Matthias 以及视频制片人 Chris Chang、Daniel Morales 和 Teddy Wansink。

Rachel Slattery designed the show’s artwork.

雷切尔·斯莱特里 (Rachel Slattery) 设计了该剧的艺术作品。

We would also like to thank Alex Dimsdale, Joyce Yang, and Amanda Lee, as well as our colleagues in the John L.

我们还要感谢 Alex Dimsdale、Joyce Yang 和 Amanda Lee，以及我们在 John L.

Thornton China Center Foreign Policy and the Office of Communications at Brookings for their support.

感谢桑顿中国外交政策中心和布鲁金斯学会传播办公室的支持。

And to learn more about this podcast, go to Brookings dot edu slash TheBeijingBrief or wherever you like to get podcasts.

要了解有关此播客的更多信息，请访问 Brookings dot edulash TheBeijingBrief 或任何您喜欢的播客。