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I got interviewed by Ben Thompson of Stratechery.

我接受了 Stratechery 的 Ben Thompson 的采访。

The interview is below.

采访如下。

But first, a few updates to write about.

但首先，需要写一些更新。

I am moving the Asianometry Newsletter to Passport and adding it to the Stratechery Plus bundle.

我正在将 Asianometry Newsletter 移至 Passport 并将其添加到 Stratechery Plus 捆绑包中。

Released video scripts and the audio feed will be accessible to Stratechery Plus subscribers (and we have a trial offer for you below).

Stratechery Plus 订阅者将可以访问已发布的视频脚本和音频源（下面我们为您提供了试用优惠）。

YouTube videos will remain free, as they always have been.

YouTube 视频将一如既往地保持免费。

As you know, video transcripts were posted somewhat sporadically.

如您所知，视频文字记录是零星发布的。

Moving forward transcripts and podcasts will be first class citizens: they will be available the same day as my public YouTube videos for Stratechery Plus subscribers.

今后的文字记录和播客将成为一等公民：它们将与我的公开 YouTube 视频在同一天向 Stratechery Plus 订阅者提供。

To manage your account, including adding the podcast feed to your podcast player, and to manage your email settings, go here (link).

要管理您的帐户，包括将播客提要添加到您的播客播放器，以及管理您的电子邮件设置，请转到此处（链接）。

You can use the same email that you used to subscribe to this Substack.

您可以使用订阅此子堆栈时使用的同一电子邮件地址。

To be clear, this is in addition to my YouTube channel.

需要明确的是，这是我的 YouTube 频道的补充。

That is the core of my work, and if you want early access you can still subscribe to my Patreon.

这是我工作的核心，如果你想抢先体验，你仍然可以订阅我的 Patreon。

Nothing will change in that regard, other than the fact this is officially now my full-time job.

在这方面什么都不会改变，除了现在正式成为我的全职工作这一事实之外。

I have also been working with Ben to make YouTube videos for his public Articles.

我还一直与 Ben 合作，为他的公开文章制作 YouTube 视频。

You can see those videos here.

您可以在这里观看这些视频。

I am a big fan of Ben Thompson and Stratechery and have long wanted to work with him.

我是 Ben Thompson 和 Stratechery 的忠实粉丝，长期以来一直想与他合作。

We’ve also arranged a one month trial to Stratechery Plus for all of you:

我们还为大家安排了为期一个月的 Stratechery Plus 试用：

You can opt in to receive Stratechery emails or add the Stratechery podcast here

您可以选择接收 Stratechery 电子邮件或在此处添加 Stratechery 播客

You also have access to Sharp Tech, Sharp China, Dithering, and Greatest of All Talk; click any of those links to add the podcasts to your podcast player

您还可以访问 Sharp Tech、Sharp China、Dithering 和 Greatest of All Talk；单击其中任何链接将播客添加到您的播客播放器

This one month trial is completely free, and you don’t need a credit card, but if you do decide to join the entire bundle is $15/month (including the Asianometry podcast and transcripts).

这一个月的试用是完全免费的，并且您不需要信用卡，但如果您决定加入，整个捆绑包的费用为每月 15 美元（包括 Asianometry 播客和成绩单）。

You can of course cancel at any time.

您当然可以随时取消。

This Substack and its URL will remain open, but it’ll be mostly just for directing you guys to the new Asianometry site .

这个 Substack 及其 URL 将保持开放，但主要只是为了引导你们访问新的 Asianometry 网站。

Go there for the latest work.

去那里看看最新的工作。

This is a big transition and there will be some bumps along the way.

这是一个重大转变，一路上会遇到一些坎坷。

Hope you guys can bear with us as we make this update, but I think it’s going to be great.

希望大家能够耐心等待我们进行此更新，但我认为这会很棒。

And, to be clear, if you just want to watch the videos, those are and will remain free forever.

而且，需要明确的是，如果您只想观看视频，这些视频将永远免费。

There's going to be a nice long intro here before this interview, introducing you and your work to the Stratechery readers.

在这次采访之前，我们将有一个很好的长篇介绍，向 Stratechery 读者介绍您和您的工作。

Not just your work, but also your work for Stratechery, which we can get to in a moment.

不仅仅是您的工作，还有您为 Stratechery 所做的工作，我们稍后会介绍。

But I always like to start these interviews by learning more about the person themself.

但我总是喜欢通过更多地了解这个人本身来开始这些采访。

Where'd you grow up?

你在哪里长大？

What inspired you to start a YouTube channel focused on technology in Asia?

是什么促使您在亚洲开设一个专注于技术的 YouTube 频道？

Was that always a focus?

这一直是焦点吗？

Or did you sort of stumble onto this?

或者你是偶然发现这一点的？

Yup.

是的。

I wrote an Article a few weeks ago about building things.

几周前我写了一篇关于构建事物的文章。

There's different aspects, some are China-specific, some are in Taiwan or Indonesia and I'm like, "You know what?

有不同的方面，有些是中国特有的，有些是台湾或印度尼西亚的，我想，“你知道吗？

I'm just going to use Asia, and we're going to roll with it".

我将使用亚洲，我们将随之发展”。

It's way too broad, but it works sometimes.

它太宽泛了，但有时确实有效。

I think about a few months in, I went on a trip to Japan with my mother, and my mother asked me, "I don't really know what you're doing over there in Asia, in Taiwan, and you should share that with us".

我想几个月后，我和妈妈去日本旅行，我妈妈问我，“我真的不知道你在亚洲、台湾做什么，你应该与我们分享”。

I was like, "Okay, mom, I'll open a YouTube channel for you".

我当时想，“好吧，妈妈，我会为你开设一个 YouTube 频道”。

Asianometry started out as a tourism channel, where basically I would go to some — like the Daxi Statue park , and I would film the video , and I would say, "Mom, this is this statue and that's that statue", and eventually you just run out of things to film, to visit.

Asianometry最初是一个旅游频道，基本上我会去一些地方——比如大溪雕像公园，我会拍摄视频，我会说，“妈妈，这是这个雕像，那是那个雕像”，最终你就没有东西可以拍摄、可以参观。

Anyways, you run out of things to talk about, and I still had the channel, so I figured, "Hey, I'll make videos about Asia".

不管怎样，你已经没有什么可谈的了，而且我还有这个频道，所以我想，“嘿，我会制作有关亚洲的视频”。

I started out only about China and Taiwan, but then the comments, YouTube comments were just so brutal.

我一开始只谈论中国和台湾，但后来的评论，YouTube 上的评论真是太残酷了。

They're just like, "This channel should be called Chinanometry, not Asianometry." That forced me, I was forced to export my research to other countries.

他们就像是，“这个频道应该被称为 Chinaanometry，而不是 Asianometry。”这迫使我，我被迫将我的研究成果出口到其他国家。

Well, I mean, you're pretty well-known , I think, amongst — some of my readers know who you are in Silicon Valley, particularly for your work on semiconductors and things along those lines.

嗯，我的意思是，我认为，你在硅谷非常有名，我的一些读者知道你是谁，特别是因为你在半导体和类似领域的工作。

Was that just a, "This is something that Asia is really good at", you sort of stumbled into it?

这只是你偶然发现的“这是亚洲真正擅长的事情”吗？

Yeah.

是的。

Well, I was going to ask you what's been the most surprising part of your YouTube experience, but I think the fact that you're sitting here and you have hundreds of thousands of views on your videos these days about chips, when you started out doing a sort of tourism channel for your mom, that might be the answer.

好吧，我本来想问你 YouTube 经历中最令人惊讶的部分是什么，但我认为，当你开始为你妈妈制作一个旅游频道时，你坐在这里，这些天你的有关芯片的视频有数十万次观看，这可能就是答案。

But beyond that, what has been the most interesting thing about being a YouTuber?

但除此之外，作为 YouTuber 最有趣的事情是什么？

Yeah.

是的。

There's a lot I could relate to.

有很多事情与我相关。

I was only going to come to Taiwan for a year, and here we are both sitting here.

我本来只打算来台湾一年，而我们都坐在这里。

And yeah, the job I've had longer than anything else, and it's like if you would've told me in 2013, "Are you still coming me up with stuff to write about?", at the beginning, you're like, "Wait, once I cover what I want to write about, then what?", turns out the technology sector is a good foundation for always having new things to explore and explain.

是的，我从事这份工作的时间比其他任何事情都长，就像你在 2013 年告诉我，“你还在给我想出一些东西来写吗？”，一开始，你会说，“等等，一旦我写完了我想写的东西，然后呢？”，事实证明，技术行业是一个很好的基础，总是有新的东西可以探索和解释。

Well, that's kind of what I want to do in this interview, because I write a lot about semiconductors , and obviously TSMC .

嗯，这就是我在这次采访中想做的事情，因为我写了很多关于半导体的文章，显然是台积电。

I was going through, number one, everything I want to ask you about, you already have a video about, so we'll have lots of links throughout this interview.

我正在经历，第一，我想问你的一切，你已经有一个视频，所以我们在整个采访中会有很多链接。

But at the same time, I'm like, some of these videos, like your current videos have, like I said, hundreds of thousands of views.

但与此同时，我想，其中一些视频，比如您当前的视频，正如我所说，有数十万的观看次数。

Some of these ones that are really pertinent have 50,000 views.

其中一些真正相关的内容有 50,000 次浏览。

I'm like, "Wait, you guys have to go back and go through this library".

我说，“等等，你们必须回去浏览一下这个图书馆”。

I don't know, maybe you have an excuse to remake some of them.

我不知道，也许你有借口重做其中一些。

Has YouTube changed?

YouTube 改变了吗？

Is there a bit where chasing the algorithm and that changes, and you mentioned the comments being brutal and bullying you into covering more things.

是否有一些地方追逐算法并且发生了变化，你提到这些评论是残酷的，并欺负你报道更多的事情。

Is that a consistency of the YouTube experience, or has it changed in the eight years you've been doing it?

这是 YouTube 体验的一贯性吗？还是说在您从事这件事的八年里它发生了变化？

Yup.

是的。

JY: But no one else is going to do a video about the [ Japanese whisky ].

JY：但是没有人会制作有关[日本威士忌]的视频。

Anyone wants to search that, I'm there.

任何人想搜索它，我都在那里。

In some ways, it's still the same, but in some ways, it's just more challenging because there are a lot of more people.

在某些方面，它仍然是一样的，但在某些方面，它只是更具挑战性，因为有更多的人。

Yeah, that makes sense.

是的，这是有道理的。

Like I said, what I think would be interesting is go through — I've noticed as people become more interested in semiconductors, you start out with a very reductive view.

就像我说的，我认为有趣的是经历——我注意到，随着人们对半导体越来越感兴趣，你会从一个非常简化的观点开始。

It's like, "Well, Nvidia is the most valuable company in the world, oh, TSMC makes video chips, they must be the most valuable.

就像，“嗯，英伟达是世界上最有价值的公司，哦，台积电生产视频芯片，它们一定是最有价值的。

Oh, TSMC depends on the ASML, I've heard that name, that must be the most valuable".

哦，台积电就靠ASML了，我听过这个名字，那肯定是最值钱的”。

I think it'd be interesting to explore and lay out the overall process and market constraints around this that drives differentiation.

我认为围绕这​​个推动差异化的整体流程和市场限制进行探索和布局会很有趣。

So I was thinking about, "Okay, where to start?", I want to talk through the semiconductor process.

所以我在想，“好吧，从哪里开始？”，我想谈谈半导体工艺。

We could start with silicon and the Czochralski process .

我们可以从硅和直拉法开始。

Let's do this.

让我们这样做吧。

Sand.

沙。

How does sand become a wafer?

沙子是如何变成威化饼的？

Let's start at the very beginning.

让我们从头开始吧。

And like I said, let's talk about it, and the historical aspect, we can sort of dip in and out on each one.

就像我说的，让我们谈谈它和历史方面，我们可以深入探讨每一个。

I would say the thing is that the solid state transistor was a interesting thing because it used a semiconductor material, which is at the time I believe it was germanium or something.

我想说的是，固态晶体管是一件有趣的事情，因为它使用了半导体材料，当时我相信它是锗或其他东西。

The germanium one didn't quite work out in the market because it had difficulties at higher temperatures and higher frequencies, and that's why silicon becomes more prominent in that feature.

锗在市场上不太受欢迎，因为它在更高的温度和更高的频率下遇到困难，这就是为什么硅在这一特性上变得更加突出。

Now, silicon is not the best semiconductor.

现在，硅并不是最好的半导体。

It's not perfect for a lot of different things for transporting charge carriers, like electrons or electron holes, but what it is good is that it scales, and it has good — its derivatives are really good for protecting the transistor from outside contamination.

它对于传输电荷载流子（如电子或电子空穴）的许多不同事物来说并不完美，但它的好处是它可以扩展，而且它有好处——它的衍生物非常适合保护晶体管免受外部污染。

I think that helped the industry latch onto it as a process.

我认为这有助于行业将其作为一个过程来抓住。

You would see these introductions of various historical events, for example, like the planar process and Fairchild Semiconductor, that would help develop silicon as this core product within the industry.

你会看到这些对各种历史事件的介绍，例如平面工艺和仙童半导体，这将有助于将硅开发为行业内的核心产品。

So at the very heart of it, at the very beginning, you create the silicon, and you turn it into a melt and you can use as melt the dip using a sea crystal to build what is called a boule and it's this massive thick thing.

所以在它的核心，一开始，你创造了硅，然后把它变成熔体，你可以使用海晶体来熔化浸料来构建所谓的晶锭，它是一个巨大而厚的东西。

Right.

正确的。

And just for context, silicon carbide, that's the material that Meta is using for the lenses in their AR glasses and actually, what you just said is one of their biggest challenges in bringing these AR glasses to market, which is it's really hard to make silicon carbide.

就上下文而言，碳化硅是 Meta 用于 AR 眼镜镜片的材料，实际上，你刚才所说的是将这些 AR 眼镜推向市场的最大挑战之一，那就是制造碳化硅真的很困难。

It doesn't have this reproducible way that traditional silicon does where you can make these long crystals that are easily sliced up into wafers, and they're like, "Can other people use silicon carbide, so people can figure out a good process here?", that's one of their big challenges.

它没有传统硅那样的可复制方式，可以制造这些很容易切成晶圆的长晶体，他们会想，“其他人可以使用碳化硅，这样人们就可以在这里找到一个好的工艺吗？”，这是他们面临的一大挑战。

No, it's a good point.

不，这是一个好点。

This applies to electronics generally.

这通常适用于电子产品。

You might have something that is, in a narrow technical sense, not the best, but manufacturability is really important and durability is really important.

从狭义的技术意义上来说，您可能拥有的东西不是最好的，但可制造性非常重要，耐用性也非常重要。

Those are some of the things that really, really set silicon apart.

这些是真正让硅与众不同的一些东西。

What is deposition?

什么是沉积？

JY: I do love this about the semiconductor industry, at least the terms make sense.

JY：我确实喜欢半导体行业，至少这些术语是有意义的。

It's about laying down or depositing a thin layer of material.

这是关于铺设或沉积一层薄薄​​的材料。

Now, what that material layer is going to be is then specified in the type of deposition.

现在，该材料层将是什么，然后在沉积类型中指定。

These tools are provided usually by Applied Materials or Tokyo Electron, and what they do is they have these certain sub-sectors of different deposition techniques.

这些工具通常由应用材料公司或东京电子提供，他们所做的就是拥有不同沉积技术的某些子部门。

You would have, for example, oxidation, which is where you take advantage of silicon's ability to grow and oxide by reacting it with water to create an oxide layer to protect the transistor or whatever is on the silicon from outside contamination, now that's deposition.

例如，您可以进行氧化，即利用硅的生长和氧化能力，通过与水反应来形成氧化层，以保护晶体管或硅上的任何物体免受外部污染，现在这就是沉积。

And then you would move that to — you would pattern a layer, whatever that layer would be with lithography .

然后你可以将其移动到 - 你可以对一个层进行图案化，无论该层是什么，都可以使用光刻技术。

Got it.

知道了。

And this is the one that most people know about, which is where ASML enters the game.

这是大多数人都知道的，也是 ASML 介入​​的地方。

And this photoresist, that's another layer that's sort of put on before the lithography?

这个光致抗蚀剂是在光刻之前添加的另一层？

Got it.

知道了。

This Japanese angle is interesting.

日本人的这个角度很有趣。

And actually the other thing I'm getting from you and I think is underrated is a lot this stuff isn't just equipment, it's a lot of chemicals and it's a lot of material science is probably the more underrated IP aspect, which is very, very well hidden and sort of preserved to your point about these companies retaining very dominant positions.

事实上，我从你那里得到的另一件事我认为被低估了，这些东西不仅仅是设备，还有很多化学品和材料科学，可能是更被低估的知识产权方面，它被隐藏得非常非常好，并且在某种程度上保留了你关于这些公司保留非常主导地位的观点。

I think you actually probably gave the answer.

我想你实际上可能已经给出了答案。

Etch might be really hard, but there's more competitors in the space and especially once we moved to DUV, there was, again, the Japanese dominated that for a long time.

蚀刻可能真的很难，但是这个领域有更多的竞争对手，特别是当我们转向 DUV 时，日本人再次在很长一段时间内占据主导地位。

ASML was more behind and came up, but then you got to EUV and that's where ASML leaped ahead sort of in conjunction with TSMC, it was really a hand-in-hand thing there.

ASML 落后了一些，但后来又上升了，但后来到了 EUV，这就是 ASML 与台积电合作取得领先的地方，这确实是一种携手并进的事情。

And this really happened with the shift from 200 millimeter wafers to 300 millimeter wafers?

从 200 毫米晶圆到 300 毫米晶圆的转变真的会发生这种情况吗？

Well, I think the other thing too is because Canon and Nikon were big Intel suppliers, and Intel just wasn't that worried about productivity because they made so much margin on their chips, and they were only making it for themselves and so Intel wasn't really pressuring Canon and Nikon to sort of go faster, whereas at TSMC it's like it's a pure direct line from our productivity to our revenue numbers and so there was a real meeting of the minds there where TSMC wanted less vertical integration because they wanted to be able to incorporate best of breed up and down the stack, and they also wanted to go way faster, and so it was a real opening and opportunity.

嗯，我认为另一件事也是因为佳能和尼康是英特尔的大供应商，而英特尔并不那么担心生产力，因为他们在芯片上赚了很多利润，而且他们只是为自己制造芯片，所以英特尔并没有真正向佳能和尼康施压，要求他们走得更快，而在台积电，这就像从我们的生产力到我们的收入数字的纯粹直接关系，所以那里有一个真正的思想会议，台积电希望减少垂直整合，因为他们希望能够整合最好的技术堆栈上上下下繁殖，他们也想走得更快，所以这是一个真正的开放和机会。

ASML is really important for TSMC with EUV, but TSMC was really important for ASML in terms of ASML getting to its large market share in the first place by capitalizing on that wafer transition.

ASML 对于拥有 EUV 的台积电来说非常重要，但台积电对于 ASML 来说也非常重要，因为 ASML 首先通过利用晶圆转型获得了巨大的市场份额。

Is that a real thing?

这是真的吗？

Because they're both downstream from Philips , that's sort of the relationship you're talking about.

因为它们都是飞利浦的下游，所以这就是您所说的关系。

Why isn't Philips a dominant sort of semiconductor name today when you had these two companies come out of them?

当这两家公司脱颖而出时，为什么飞利浦今天没有成为半导体行业的主导品牌呢？

Is there an aspect where this 200 to 300 millimeter wafer transition and the increase in efficiency and speed that it allowed for, was that actually, if you were to really zoom out, was that when TSMC started to pass Intel?

从 200 毫米到 300 毫米晶圆的转变以及它所带来的效率和速度的提高是否有一个方面，实际上，如果你真的缩小范围，那是台积电开始超越英特尔的时候吗？

This was still a good decade before their process surpassed Intel, but is there a bit where just the speed and efficiency, and the learning and the iteration that was downstream from increased velocity was in the long run when this changing of the guard began?

在他们的工艺超越英特尔之前，这仍然是一个很好的十年，但是从长远来看，当这种转变开始时，速度和效率以及速度提高下游的学习和迭代是否有一点点？

This changed when the mobile industry started to become more of a thing and Intel missed that, but once it became more clear that mobile chips needed to get more speed, that's when Intel or TSMC decided that, yes, we need to actually start going up this node process.

当移动行业开始变得更加重要而英特尔错过了这一点时，这种情况发生了变化，但一旦移动芯片需要获得更快的速度变得更加明确，英特尔或台积电就决定，是的，我们需要真正开始提升这个节点工艺。

I think trying to distinguish when TSMC would start to surpass Intel, that's tough to kind of find that because they was always so different from one another in these early years, and you wouldn't really say that they were competing basically until what, 2007, 2008.

我认为试图区分台积电何时开始超越英特尔，这是很难发现的，因为他们在早期总是彼此如此不同，而且你不会真正说他们基本上在竞争，直到 2007 年、2008 年。

Yeah, they're hardly competing today, in some respects.

是的，在某些方面，他们今天几乎没有竞争。

I guess the most direct place of competition until Intel's foundry really gets going is via AMD and Intel to a sense.

我认为，在英特尔代工厂真正启动之前，最直接的竞争场所在某种意义上是通过 AMD 和英特尔。

But here's another question.

但这里还有另一个问题。

There's a bit where Intel famously, a lot of these technologies, they brought them to market first, and you think about how do you bring new technologies?

英特尔有一个著名的地方，很多这样的技术，他们首先将它们推向市场，你想一想如何引入新技术？

Being highly integrated is at least theoretically an advantage, but you have this bit where TSMC is not highly integrated, they're looking for all these different pieces, but they're very process-oriented and they're very efficient and setting it all up, but is there just a bit where the complexity got so high that the integration tax was too large and process actually mattered, iteration speed mattered more than anything else?

高度集成至少在理论上是一个优势，但是台积电的集成度不高，他们正在寻找所有这些不同的部分，但他们非常注重流程，而且非常高效，并且将其全部设置好，但是是否有一点复杂性变得如此之高，以至于集成税太大，而流程实际上很重要，迭代速度比其他任何事情都重要？

You could say that's when the vertical integration of Intel really started biting them in the butt.

可以说，从那时起，英特尔的垂直整合才真正开始痛击他们。

But prior to that, I would say 2011, as recently as 2011, when they were doing 22 nanometer, the second generation FinFET and all that, they were really killing it.

但在此之前，我想说的是 2011 年，就​​在 2011 年，当他们在做 22 纳米、第二代 FinFET 之类的时候，他们真的在扼杀它。

No, I mean they were so far ahead with FinFET.

不，我的意思是他们在 FinFET 方面遥遥领先。

It's under-appreciated how relatively recent that was.

人们没有充分认识到这是相对较新的。

You actually said something really interesting about the sort of arrogance bit, because I think the common perception of Intel is they refused to leap ahead and they didn't adopt EUV.

事实上，你说了一些关于傲慢的事情，非常有趣，因为我认为英特尔的普遍看法是他们拒绝向前迈进，也没有采用 EUV。

But actually there's an underrated aspect here, which was there were other aspects they were trying to go ahead too far too quickly.

但实际上这里有一个被低估的方面，那就是他们在其他方面试图走得太远太快。

The tick-tock strategy, yes.

滴答策略，是的。

Improve design, improve process, improve design, improve process.

改进设计，改进流程，改进设计，改进流程。

What were some of those leaps they were trying to make in a world where EUV was not ready?

在 EUV 尚未做好准备的世界中，他们试图实现哪些飞跃？

They were trying to get to EUV eventually, but there was a cobalt issue and some other things along those lines.

他们最终试图实现 EUV，但存在钴问题和其他一些类似问题。

What were some of the roadblocks that they ran into?

他们遇到了哪些障碍？

Right.

正确的。

And of course they're trying to recover by taking massive amounts of steps in a very short amount of time.

当然，他们正试图通过在很短的时间内采取大量步骤来恢复。

I guess maybe the cure will work out better than the disease.

我想也许治疗方法会比疾病本身更有效。

All right, let's go back to the process.

好吧，让我们回到流程。

You have the silicon wafer, you have this deposition step, you have the mask, which is the pattern for the chip that the light source shines through, you etch it onto the chip.

你有硅晶片，你有这个沉积步骤，你有掩模，它是光源照射的芯片图案，你将其蚀刻到芯片上。

Then you mentioned once you've etched a layer on, it's going through multiple times.

然后你提到一旦蚀刻了一层，它就会经历多次。

How many times is the step generally repeated as you're sort of building up a chip?

当你构建芯片时，这个步骤通常会重复多少次？

Is this where a lot of the yield problems happen, is in this sort of recycling of steps?

这是很多良率问题发生的地方吗？是在这种步骤的回收中吗？

You still have to connect these transistors together.

您仍然需要将这些晶体管连接在一起。

It used to be different pieces you would actually wire them together.

过去它是不同的部分，你实际上将它们连接在一起。

What is that layer made of and how is that actually accomplished where you have all these transistors etched on a chip, but you have to connect them?

该层是由什么组成的？在将所有这些晶体管蚀刻在芯片上但必须连接它们的情况下，它实际上是如何实现的？

There's a communication layer, there's a power layer.

有一个通信层，有一个电源层。

How does all that work?

这一切是如何运作的？

So what they did is that they had IBM develop this wonderful copper lining that protects the copper from leaching to the silicon, and the whole industry followed what IBM did and copper has to be done in a weird inverse way, but that's served us well for 20 more years and now I think the industry is probably looking more at ruthenium , which is going to be the next big jump in interconnects beyond copper.

所以他们所做的是让IBM开发了这种奇妙的铜衬里，可以保护铜免于浸出到硅中，整个行业都遵循IBM的做法，铜必须以一种奇怪的相反方式完成，但这为我们服务了20多年，现在我认为该行业可能更多地关注钌，这将是铜之外互连的下一个重大飞跃。

Is lithography used for these interconnects or is that different?

这些互连是否使用光刻技术，或者有何不同？

How is the actual pattern established and laid down?

实际的模式是如何建立和制定的？

Right.

对。

They still use the old DUV for as much as possible because it's much cheaper.

他们仍然尽可能地使用旧的 DUV，因为它便宜得多。

So then how does the power layer into this?

那么电源层是如何融入其中的呢？

Right now — we can get to backside power in a moment — but right now you have the transistor layer, you have the communications layer, and then power goes on top of that?

现在——我们马上就可以讨论背面电源——但是现在你有晶体管层，你有通信层，然后电源在上面？

But the problem is, now you've done a lot of work.

但问题是，现在你已经做了很多工作。

If the most difficult layer is the transistor layer, but you already laid down all the power bit, then you're throwing a lot more away if the chip screws up or if something goes wrong in that middle layer.

如果最困难的层是晶体管层，但你已经放下了所有的电源位，那么如果芯片坏了或者中间层出了问题，你就会扔掉更多的电源。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

What is wafer bonding?

什么是晶圆键合？

JY: Wafer bonding is where you take two wafers and you smack them together and there's various ways to do it.

JY：晶圆键合是指将两块晶圆焊接在一起，有多种方法可以实现。

It really, it blows your mind how much detail they've gone into this, but you can bond them using Van der Waals forces .

确实，他们对此进行了如此多的细节，这让你大吃一惊，但你可以使用范德华力将它们结合起来。

You can heat them up, you can use glue, you can use a whole bunch of different things.

你可以加热它们，你可以使用胶水，你可以使用一大堆不同的东西。

But at the core of it, the concept is you take two wafers and you smack them together and you would take, in the case of backside power, you're taking this power network and you're just melding it to the bottom of the transistor layer and making it into a thinned transistor layer to connect the transistors to the power.

但其核心概念是，你将两块晶圆放在一起，在背面电源的情况下，你将使用这个电源网络，将其融合到晶体管层的底部，并将其制成薄薄的晶体管层，以将晶体管连接到电源。

Hope that makes sense.

希望这是有道理的。

How do you find out about this stuff?

你是怎么知道这个东西的？

And to what extent is the knowledge of how to do this kept internal versus it becomes shared across the industry and people know how to do that?

如何做到这一点的知识在多大程度上保留在内部，而不是在整个行业中共享并且人们知道如何做到这一点？

What is the give and take in terms of, "I want to learn from other people, they can learn from me", versus, "This is super important intellectual property that keeps us unique and no one else can know?".

“我想向其他人学习，他们也可以向我学习”，而“这是一个超级重要的知识产权，它使我们保持独特，其他人无法知道”，这之间的给予和接受是什么？

Partially it's because of diffusion through employees, there's inter-corporate organizations where they all mix and they chat, there's like a feeling within the industry that it's time to adopt this and they all work towards it.

部分原因是通过员工进行传播，在公司间组织中，他们都混合在一起聊天，行业内有一种感觉，是时候采用这一点了，他们都在努力实现这一点。

But then they all have their own different styles, I guess, to fill their own proprietary specialty in it and you can definitely see this within definitely the packaging industry for sure.

但我想，他们都有自己不同的风格，以填补他们自己的专有专业，你肯定可以在包装行业中看到这一点。

So I would say you have big ideas and concepts that are shared within conferences, within conversations over the years, but then the small details, which is where the juice is squeezed, that is developed within the companies and they'll keep that to themselves.

所以我想说的是，你有一些大的想法和概念，可以在会议中、在多年来的对话中分享，但小细节，也就是榨汁的地方，是在公司内部开发的，他们会保守秘密。

Actually, I want to tie this into the question about the Japanese companies before.

其实我想把这个问题和之前关于日本企业的问题联系起来。

Is there an aspect where almost the more mechanical bits are, "Look, if you know what to do, you can internally then figure out how to actually do that", but is it a bit about chemicals and that nature?

是否有一个方面，几乎更多的机械部分是，“看，如果你知道要做什么，你可以在内部弄清楚如何实际做到这一点”，但这是否与化学品和自然有关？

You might know what to do, but if you don't actually have the recipe, you're not going to figure it out.

你可能知道该怎么做，但如果你实际上没有食谱，你就不会弄清楚。

Is that tied into why that's been so much more resistant to competition?

这是否与它对竞争的抵抗力如此之大有关？

But as far as the steps go, are the same chemicals used from the chemical perspective?

但就步骤而言，从化学角度来看是否使用相同的化学品？

Are those all used in trailing-edge as well as leading-edge, or is there any differentiation in that regard?

这些是否都用于后缘和前缘，或者在这方面有什么区别吗？

Whereas obviously for the equipment, EUV is only used on the leading-edge.

但显然对于设备来说，EUV 仅用于前沿。

You're not going to use it for your 28 nanometer chip or whatever it might be.

你不会将它用于 28 纳米芯片或任何其他芯片。

The chemicals is that just — that's a commonality, it's used for everything?

这些化学品就是——这是一个共性，它可以用于一切？

TSMC knows what they're getting into.

台积电知道他们正在面临什么。

But I think actually I love that example because I think it speaks to what is unique about TSMC.

但我认为实际上我喜欢这个例子，因为我认为它说明了台积电的独特之处。

It's this, I've talked about they're a customer service organization for fabless chip companies and they're very collaborative and they're going to work with you to, they have the IP libraries, but they're going to get it working on their process.

就是这样，我已经谈到他们是无晶圆厂芯片公司的客户服务组织，他们非常协作，他们将与您合作，他们拥有 IP 库，但他们将使其在他们的流程中发挥作用。

But what you're speaking to is this deep level of collaboration on the process side and actually you say systems integrator, that sounds low brow, but in fact it's essential to how this all works and comes together.

但你所说的是流程方面的这种深层次的协作，实际上你说的是系统集成商，这听起来很低调，但实际上这对于这一切如何运作和结合起来至关重要。

The chemical part I think is very underrated, I would say I underrated it, this has been actually pretty illuminating.

我认为化学部分被严重低估了，我想说我低估了它，这实际上很有启发性。

I do have one question — what is ion doping?

我确实有一个问题——什么是离子掺杂？

So you have these three layers.

所以你有这三层。

You have the transistor layer, you have the communications layer, you have the power layer.

你有晶体管层，你有通信层，你有电源层。

Is this when you can start testing it and see when it actually works?

这是您可以开始测试它并查看它何时真正起作用的时候吗？

How is the whole testing, dicing, and binning or can you be testing throughout so you know when you can toss it and when you cannot?

整个测试、切块和分箱的情况如何，或者您是否可以进行全程测试，以便知道何时可以扔掉它，何时不能扔掉？

Got it.

知道了。

So with these big five companies, where do they fit in this stack?

那么对于这五家大公司来说，它们在这个堆栈中处于什么位置呢？

And I know you mentioned JSR, who I don't have in my big five, but I guess I'm more focused on the manufacturing aspect.

我知道您提到了 JSR，我的五巨头中没有他，但我想我更关注制造方面。

In the steps we talked about, so where is, I mentioned it, but where is LAM Research?

在我们讲的步骤中，那么在哪里，我提到了，但是LAM Research在哪里？

So in a typical process, do you go all in with one company or you pick best of breed from all the different ones?

因此，在典型的流程中，您是全力投资一家公司，还是从所有不同的公司中挑选最好的公司？

Got it.

知道了。

So TSMC is really breeding this commonality of competition to keep their costs down.

因此，台积电确实正在培育这种共性竞争，以降低成本。

Well, I'm sure that drives them crazy as far as ASML goes.

嗯，我确信这会让 ASML 感到疯狂。

You mentioned two, what's the other one?

你提到了两个，另外一个是什么？

If ASML is one that's unique, what's the other one?

如果 ASML 是独一无二的，那么另一家是什么？

Oh, very interesting.

哦，很有趣。

That is interesting.

这很有趣。

So with this understanding and perspective, what does that mean in the context of China?

那么这样的理解和视角，在中国的背景下意味着什么呢？

I will say one thing.

我要说一件事。

I mean there's the chemical aspect, which I think is very interesting and probably under-appreciated.

我的意思是化学方面，我认为这非常有趣，但可能没有得到充分重视。

The other thing though is there's a bit where TSMC breeding multiple suppliers in different areas, in some respects it's a diffusion of the technology that maybe makes it harder to control or that also speaks to the possibility of Chinese companies learning how to do these different steps.

但另一件事是，台积电在不同领域培育了多个供应商，在某些方面，这是技术的扩散，这可能会使其更难以控制，或者也说明中国公司有可能学习如何执行这些不同的步骤。

What's your overall view of China's prospects in coming up in semiconductors broadly?

您对中国在半导体领域的整体发展前景有何看法？

So I think in the case of China's, they'll probably know how to do this stuff and I've read their textbooks and they seem to know it pretty well.

所以我认为就中国而言，他们可能知道如何做这些事情，我读过他们的教科书，他们似乎对此非常了解。

So I think the secret more is, can they move that from an academic sense to an actual doing it sense?

所以我认为秘密更多的是，他们能否将其从学术意义转变为实际的实践意义？

That is much more challenging because that requires volume, that requires manufacturing, that requires wafers, and also lots of capital risk on behalf of the buyer.

这更具挑战性，因为这需要产量，需要制造，需要晶圆，而且还代表买方面临大量资本风险。

So I get this question a lot in terms of what China can rise up for.

所以我经常被问到这个问题，即中国可以为了什么而崛起。

I think nothing's impossible, it's made by man, it can be done.

我认为没有什么是不可能的，这是人为的，是可以做到的。

It's required to be done economically, exportably, to be in a way to export, that's much more challenging and I think right now the wafer volumes aren't there yet.

它需要经济地、可出口地、以出口的方式完成，这更具挑战性，我认为目前晶圆产量还没有达到。

Where can China realistically get to?

中国究竟能走到哪里？

I guess there's two questions.

我想有两个问题。

Number one is if they have access to western equipment, SMIC can make a 7 nanometer chip.

第一，如果他们能够获得西方设备，中芯国际可以制造7纳米芯片。

They might not be able to make it profitably or with high yields, but they can make it versus the, "We don't have access to equipment anymore, we have to actually make the equipment itself".

他们可能无法实现盈利或高产量，但他们可以做到这一点，而不是“我们不再能够获得设备，我们必须自己制造设备”。

What are the barriers there?

那里有什么障碍？

What's the hardest part to catch up with?

最难赶上的部分是什么？

Or is it actually, we're missing the whole point because it's actually the chemicals and the materials engineering?

或者实际上，我们错过了整个重点，因为它实际上是化学品和材料工程？

It really is interesting to me is the role that the equipment makers play in building the process node.

我真正感兴趣的是设备制造商在构建工艺节点中所扮演的角色。

A guy at TSMC's lithography bay, even the manager, even a higher level manager, has no idea how the machine works.

台积电光刻车间的一个人，甚至经理，甚至更高级别的经理，都不知道机器是如何工作的。

Conceptually, they don't know how to use it necessarily, they rely on to be told by other people within the ecosystem, the equipment manufacturer or their R&D guy to say how to use this machine.

从概念上讲，他们不一定知道如何使用它，他们依靠生态系统内的其他人、设备制造商或其研发人员告诉他们如何使用这台机器。

So surprisingly little fundamental core knowledge of that is within the industry.

令人惊讶的是，行业内对此的基本核心知识很少。

So cutting that off to some extent will be immensely damaging because you can't just say, "We're going to just rebuild this node with a different machine", that basically, that introduces so much new uncertainty into the flow that makes even me anxious.

因此，在某种程度上切断它将会造成巨大的破坏，因为你不能只是说，“我们将用另一台机器重建这个节点”，这基本上会给流程带来很多新的不确定性，甚至让我感到焦虑。

So it's pretty crazy.

所以这很疯狂。

So do you think that, I don't want to put you on the spot, but broadly from a timeframe perspective, if China did get Western equipment, is it maybe a bit longer to catch up than people might think?

那么你是否认为，我不想让你陷入困境，但从广义上讲，从时间框架的角度来看，如果中国确实获得了西方设备，追赶的时间是否可能比人们想象的要长一些？

So where is Intel in all this?

那么英特尔在这一切中处于什么位置呢？

We touched on that a little bit, where they went wrong.

我们稍微谈到了他们出错的地方。

They got stuck at the 14 to 10 nanometer transition, EUV wasn't ready at the beginning.

他们陷入了 14 纳米到 10 纳米的过渡，EUV 一开始就没有准备好。

Then had to rework it, the ways they tried to leap ahead didn't work.

然后不得不返工，他们试图跨越的方式并没有奏效。

Can they catch up?

他们能赶上吗？

Are you feeling good about 18A, can they actually leap ahead as you talked about?

您对18A感觉良好吗？他们真的能像您所说的那样实现跨越吗？

What's the bigger failing here because when it comes to Foundry?

对于 Foundry 来说，最大的失败是什么？

We just talked about two sides, there's the customer service side, which they're not great at, but there's also the integration bit.

我们刚刚讨论了两个方面，即客户服务方面，他们不擅长这一点，但也有集成方面。

Is there a bit where they're actually, they're not sufficiently used to leveraging and leaning on and depending on suppliers to the extent that TSMC was because they wanted to do it all themself and know it all themself?

实际上，他们是否有一点没有像台积电那样充分习惯于利用、依赖和依赖供应商，因为他们想自己做所有事情并自己了解一切？

Or am I overrating that?

还是我高估了这一点？

So I struggle to really understand how you can really re-engineer an entire company to become so vertically focused and so focused on this one thing to becoming so broad and ecosystem oriented.

因此，我很难真正理解如何才能真正重新设计整个公司，使其变得如此垂直、专注于这一件事，从而变得如此广泛和面向生态系统。

It's very strange.

这很奇怪。

I am not going to say they can't do it because the Intel bulls will come after me, but I think it's going to be interesting ride.

我不会说他们做不到，因为看好英特尔的人会追随我，但我认为这将是一段有趣的旅程。

I really actually think this has been a very illuminating, I think to your point.

我真的认为这对你的观点很有启发。

There is this bit about this integration background, and to your point when you're describing this TSMC process about TSMC, not even people at TSMC knowing how particular steps work, but bringing in and depending on other entities to do that and you can see why they did that before when they were behind because that was the way to catch up and it turned out in the long run that ended up to be the way to get ahead as well.

关于这种集成背景有一点，就你的观点而言，当你描述关于台积电的台积电流程时，甚至台积电的人都不知道特定步骤是如何工作的，而是引入并依赖其他实体来做到这一点，你可以明白为什么他们在落后时这样做，因为这是赶上的方式，从长远来看，这最终也是取得领先的方式。

That's a cultural learning for TSMC that's been embedded for 40 years and it's just totally the opposite way that Intel has always sort of operated.

这是台积电 40 年来根深蒂固的文化学习，而这与英特尔一贯的运作方式完全相反。

Do you think TSMC — or is this going to fall on the equipment vendors and the chemical manufacturers — can push innovation in the long run?

您认为台积电（或者这会落在设备供应商和化学品制造商身上）能够长期推动创新吗？

Because I think the flip side of the Intel arrogance is a lot of that arrogance was well-earned.

因为我认为英特尔傲慢的另一面是很多傲慢都是应得的。

Like we mentioned FinFET before, a tremendous breakthrough.

就像我们之前提到的 FinFET，这是一个巨大的突破。

You're basically making these transistors 3D and Intel pushed that forward.

基本上，你正在使这些晶体管 3D 化，英特尔推动了这一进程。

Intel birthed the idea of EUV way back when and ASML brought it to market.

早在 ASML 将其推向市场时，英特尔就提出了 EUV 的想法。

But can TSMC in the long run push us through similar barriers or does this approach only work as fast following to a certain extent?

但从长远来看，台积电能否推动我们跨越类似的障碍，还是这种方法只能在一定程度上起到快速跟随的作用？

Is there a bit, we're a little too hard on Intel where they just kept making these huge leaps and one of the leaps, they didn't cross the chasm, they fell down and maybe we should have a little more grace for the fact that they ran into a wall because at least they were trying to jump over it, as it were?

有没有一点，我们对英特尔有点太严厉了，他们只是不断地做出这些巨大的飞跃，其中一个飞跃，他们没有跨越鸿沟，他们跌倒了，也许我们应该对他们撞到了一堵墙这一事实有更多的宽容，因为至少他们试图跳过它，就像事实一样？

I have a somewhat related question, but what is Japan doing with Rapidus ?

我有一个有点相关的问题，但是日本正在用 Rapidus 做什么？

Do they have any chance to build this other alternative supplier?

他们有机会建立另一个替代供应商吗？

They're trying to build a two nanometer process in Hokkaido?

他们正试图在北海道建立一个两纳米工艺？

Any takes on that?

有什么看法吗？

Are these TSMC fabs in America a viable second source or is it one of those things where, "Once TSMC Taiwan goes down, these fabs are not worth nearly as much"?

美国的这些台积电晶圆厂是可行的第二来源还是“一旦台积电台湾倒闭，这些晶圆厂的价值就不那么值钱了”？

Then there will be much bigger problems you have to think about.

那么你就会有更大的问题需要考虑。

What makes memory different from logic?

记忆与逻辑有何不同？

Why isn't TSMC just manufacturing all the memory?

为什么台积电不直接生产所有内存？

Why is that SK Hynix or Samsung or Micron?

为什么是 SK 海力士、三星或美光？

What is different about that process versus making logic chips?

该工艺与制造逻辑芯片有何不同？

Samsung just famously, every time there was a down market, which happens with memory because it's more of a commodity, they would just invest through it.

三星的名言是，每当内存市场出现下滑时，因为内存更像是一种商品，他们就会通过内存进行投资。

And so, every time the market came back they'd have a larger and larger share.

因此，每当市场复苏时，他们就会拥有越来越大的份额。

Is logic at that point?

这时候逻辑还成立吗？

I think one of the most interesting parts of TSMC history was 2008 when the great financial crisis hit, TSMC management wants to pull back and Morris Chang comes back to the company and he's like, "No. Did you see what Apple just introduced?

我认为台积电历史上最有趣的部分之一是 2008 年，当时金融危机袭来，台积电管理层想要撤出，张忠谋回到公司，他说：“不。你看到苹果刚刚推出的产品了吗？

We're actually doubling down", that was a bit where they invested through a downturn and really emerged on top.

我们实际上正在加倍下注”，这就是他们在经济低迷时期进行投资并真正脱颖而出的地方。

Was that a transformation where logic was more a specialty thing that's why Intel moved to logic, they abandoned memory, and now it became more of a commodity and that was also it became more memory-like than it used to be or does that not make sense?

这是一种转变，逻辑更像是一种特殊的东西，这就是英特尔转向逻辑的原因，他们放弃了内存，现在它变得更像是一种商品，而且它也变得比以前更像内存了，或者这没有意义？

I'm amenable to the belief that logic will always have value at some point, there'll always be differentiation.

我相信逻辑在某些时候总是有价值的，总是有差异的。

So you could say maybe you could make an argument that TSMC thought N2 wouldn't be a valuable node, that's why they built a smaller fab for it, but then suddenly AI became a thing and now they're pivoting on that as fast as we can possibly see.

所以你可以说，也许你可以提出这样的论点：台积电认为 N2 不会是一个有价值的节点，这就是为什么他们为其建造了一个较小的晶圆厂，但后来人工智能突然成为一种事物，现在他们正在以我们所能看到的最快速度转向这一点。

So it's really fascinating, I don't buy the fact that logic will become like memory.

所以这真的很令人着迷，我不相信逻辑会变得像记忆一样。

But the volumes are becoming almost more memory-like particularly in some regards.

但这些卷正变得越来越像记忆，尤其是在某些方面。

That's interesting.

那很有意思。

How so?

为何如此？

Use it like the high bandwidth memory and things like that?

像高带宽内存之类的东西使用它吗？

Well, we've dived super deep into the old Jon Y catalog.

好吧，我们已经深入研究了乔恩·Y 的旧目录。

You've been doing a lot recently about cars and electric cars.

您最近在汽车和电动汽车方面做了很多工作。

Is this just a, "They're computers on wheels", is that the framing or what do you find interesting about this space and that is piquing your interest?

这只是“它们是带轮子的计算机”吗？这是框架还是您对这个空间感兴趣并激发了您的兴趣？

And this is thinking about cars as almost more like the OEM model like consumer electronics, "We're going to just build out a standard platform", whatever differentiation there is can come from software and that's how you have a Xiaomi car, right?

这就是将汽车视为更像是消费电子产品等 OEM 模式，“我们将构建一个标准平台”，无论有什么差异化都可以来自软件，这就是你拥有小米汽车的方式，对吗？

I've been in some of the Luxgen vans, but I haven't actually driven any of them.

我曾经乘坐过一些纳智捷货车，但我并没有真正驾驶过其中任何一辆。

It's almost what they don't know and it's precisely because the traditional automakers, because making an engine was really hard, and so it's very difficult to accept the idea that your highly differentiated expertise and what you're good at is actually now an obstacle to success because of the cost that goes into it and the wear and tear inherent to that.

这几乎是他们不知道的，正是因为传统汽车制造商，因为制造发动机真的很困难，所以很难接受这样的想法：你高度差异化的专业知识和你擅长的东西现在实际上是成功的障碍，因为它所涉及的成本和固有的磨损。

And actually no, the solution is to make it as simple as possible and then consumers just want cool software, that can be enough.

事实上不是，解决方案是让它尽可能简单，然后消费者只需要很酷的软件，这就足够了。

I think the Foxconn connection there was clear.

我认为富士康与那里的联系是显而易见的。

It's like, yeah, you build us the standard platform, we will do our software on top.

就像，是的，您为我们构建了标准平台，我们将在其上开发我们的软件。

I agree, it's almost like the TV thing, they were rumored to do a TV for years and years, 10, 15 years ago is always the talk and you wonder maybe they should have done that because what platform does that give you to do other stuff in the future?

我同意，这几乎就像电视的事情一样，多年来一直有传言说他们要做电视，10、15 年前总是人们谈论的话题，你想知道也许他们应该这样做，因为这会给你未来做其他事情的平台带来什么？

You have to run the same thing about a car.

你必须对汽车进行同样的操作。

Even if it was started out not being fully self-driving, that gets you down the road to eventually do that.

即使一开始并不是完全自动驾驶，这也会让你最终做到这一点。

All right, well if anyone wanted to jump into the Jon Y library, the semiconductor stuff's amazing.

好吧，如果有人想进入 Jon Y 图书馆，半导体的东西就太棒了。

We're going to have a ton of links to it, you're doing more on cars.

我们将有大量的链接，您将在汽车上做更多的事情。

Are there any other pet topics that just stick out to you?

还有其他让您印象深刻的宠物话题吗？

This is some of my favorite stuff to do.

这是我最喜欢做的一些事情。

You mentioned actually the Soviet economic issues.

你实际上提到了苏联的经济问题。

Those were some really interesting videos, what else is in the must-see list?

这些都是一些非常有趣的视频，还有哪些是必看列表中的？

One of my favorite videos in recent days was looking at the Saudi and Middle Eastern water supply technologies to desalinate water at millions and millions of gallons of scale and looking at a lot of that is basically filled by cheap energy and it's probably not economical, and I think it was fun.

最近几天我最喜欢的视频之一是观看沙特阿拉伯和中东的供水技术，以数百万加仑的规模淡化海水，并看到其中很多基本上都是由廉价能源填充的，这可能不经济，但我认为这很有趣。

I think water is something that a lot of people need to pay attention to and where your water comes from and how it's being made.

我认为水是很多人需要关注的事情，水是从哪里来的以及它是如何制造的。

And I have what, 12 videos on it, it's really fun.

我有 12 个视频，真的很有趣。

Well, I mean, what I think is clear in this conversation, and I think everyone should pay attention to, is if you want to understand how something works and you want it in a 20, 25-minute or an adjustable video, Jon is your resource.

好吧，我的意思是，我认为在这次谈话中很清楚，而且我认为每个人都应该注意的是，如果你想了解某件事是如何工作的，并且你希望它在 20、25 分钟或可调整的视频中，乔恩就是你的资源。

I've learned a ton from you, I started out asking you questions that I already knew the answer to, but I knew the answer because I watched your videos.

我从你身上学到了很多东西，我开始问你我已经知道答案的问题，但我知道答案是因为我看了你的视频。

So everyone should follow, you can now get access.

所以每个人都应该遵循，您现在就可以访问。

You can listen via podcast, you can actually read the transcripts, but the YouTube videos are the bread and butter, everyone should go and subscribe.

你可以通过播客收听，你实际上可以阅读文字记录，但 YouTube 视频是面包和黄油，每个人都应该去订阅。

Jon, it's great to have you on board.

乔恩，很高兴你加入。

You've done a great job with Stratechery videos and I'm super excited to be working together going forward.

你们在 Stratechery 视频方面做得非常出色，我非常高兴能够继续合作。