Casa Susanna
TV Host: Now for reasons which will become very clear, we’re going to use first names only.
电视主持人：现在，出于将变得非常清楚的原因，我们将只使用名字。
Would you please introduce yourself?
请您介绍一下自己好吗？
TV Host: And Sonia is that your own hair?
电视主持人：索尼娅那是你自己的头发吗？
TV Host: That’s a very lovely dress you’re wearing Simone, where did you buy it?
电视主持人：西蒙妮，你穿的这条裙子非常漂亮，你在哪里买的？
TV Host: Ladies and Gentlemen the reasons for using first names only for these very very charming contestants.
电视主持人：女士们、先生们，请解释一下只对这些非常非常迷人的参赛者使用名字的原因。
Is that right now each one of them is breaking the law.
难道现在他们每个人都在违法吗？
You see each of our contestants, is a man.
你看我们每一个参赛者，都是一个男人。
Katherine: I would think that none of these trees had even started growing when I was last here.
凯瑟琳：我想当我上次来这里时，这些树都还没有开始生长。
The times I was here, were very good times
我在这里的时光非常美好
Katherine: Yes, that’s the house, when I went there.
凯瑟琳：是的，我去的时候就是那所房子。
And there was a swing hanging in the end of the veranda.
阳台的尽头挂着一个秋千。
And this was the old barn, where the theatrical took place.
这是旧谷仓，戏剧表演的地方。
Halloween 1962, I was being Little swan in Swan Lake.
1962年万圣节，我在天鹅湖里扮演小天鹅。
Susanna was doing erotic dancing.
苏珊娜正在跳色情舞蹈。
South American dancing.
南美舞蹈。
And three of my friends were being Andrew's sisters.
我的三个朋友是安德鲁的姐妹。
It looks as good as it did then.
看起来和当时一样好。
Katherine: We all used to have our meals there, and people used to sit out the front.
凯瑟琳：我们过去都在那里吃饭，人们常常坐在前面。
On the veranda, on the lawn.
阳台上，草坪上。
People used to do gardening work.
人们过去常做园艺工作。
I just loved being here, because they had total freedom.
我很喜欢呆在这里，因为他们有完全的自由。
Total chance to be themselves for a change.
完全有机会做自己，做出改变。
The weekend of Halloween 1962 was when Virginia Prince formed a national sorority of cross-dressers called F.P.E.
1962 年万圣节的周末，弗吉尼亚·普林斯 (Virginia Prince) 组建了一个名为 F.P.E. 的全国变装者联谊会。
for Full Personality Expression.
充分表达个性。
And It was a very interesting weekend, to say the very least though.
至少可以说，这是一个非常有趣的周末。
There were psychiatrists from the Kinsey Institute, there were people from all over, there were over 100 people there, that weekend.
那个周末，有来自金赛研究所的精神科医生，有来自世界各地的人，有 100 多人。
But it's much the same.
但其实是一样的。
Katherine: Visiting Casa Susanna was almost a necessity for me.
凯瑟琳：参观苏珊娜之家对我来说几乎是必须的。
I had to leave my family in Australia and come to America because I needed to know more about myself, I needed to know what it would be like to live as a woman.
我不得不离开澳大利亚的家人来到美国，因为我需要更多地了解自己，我需要知道作为一个女人生活会是什么样子。
for an extended period.
很长一段时间。
And In the back of my mind, I thought If I go to Casa Susanna resort and I find that I’m more woman inside that I am man, that might be the point where my new life starts.
在我的内心深处，我想如果我去卡萨苏珊娜度假村，我发现我内心更多的是女人而不是男人，那可能就是我新生活的开始。
Katherine: I think there are few people like me because I was a white child with a single sibling, living on a coral island in the middle of the Pacific.
凯瑟琳：我认为像我这样的人很少，因为我是一个白人孩子，有一个兄弟姐妹，住在太平洋中部的一个珊瑚岛上。
Katherine: And I remember as far back as I was five, my sister dressing me in one of her old dresses.
凯瑟琳：我记得早在我五岁的时候，我姐姐就给我穿上她的一件旧衣服。
The fact that I absolutely adored the feeling and wanted it to go on, wished it could happen every day.
事实上，我非常喜欢这种感觉并希望它继续下去，希望它每天都能发生。
Wish that when that my father came home from the sea.
希望当我的父亲从海上回家时。
I could say: “you got two daughters now!” So, one doesn’t know when these thoughts start.
我可以说：“你现在有两个女儿了！”所以，人们不知道这些想法是什么时候开始的。
Katherine: But it wasn’t until lot of years later that I had that experience of joy, a shared joy
凯瑟琳：但直到很多年后，我才体验到了快乐，一种共同的快乐
Katherine: being able to walk among people and talk to them without hesitation.
凯瑟琳：能够在人群中行走并毫不犹豫地与他们交谈。
To know that they understood the person I was, No matter what you look like inside I was a real woman and wanted them to know it and they did know it.
要知道他们了解我这个人，无论你内心是什么样子，我都是一个真正的女人，希望他们知道这一点，而他们确实知道这一点。
Diana: Between my 3rd grade and 4th grade, I would go to sleep at night praying that I would wake up as a girl.
戴安娜：在三年级和四年级之间，我会在晚上睡觉时祈祷自己醒来时会变成一个女孩。
And I would pray hard you know
我会努力祈祷你知道
Diana: It was a secret that I had and mostly because I was very active and I was very social and very out there, it didn’t have much impact in terms of what it appeared.
戴安娜：这是我的一个秘密，主要是因为我非常活跃，我非常社交，非常喜欢外出，就其表现而言，它并没有产生太大影响。
But I knew that it was…
但我知道那是……
There was something down inside of me that was not…Right!
我内心深处有某种东西不是……对！
That was not who I was.
那不是我。
And there was no way to make it right.
而且没有办法纠正。
I think it’s very hard to have an appreciation for the difference, for me isolated in Iowa where, literally you cannot talk to anyone about this at all.
我认为很难理解这种差异，因为我在爱荷华州与世隔绝，实际上你根本无法与任何人谈论这一点。
Diana: You have to kind of understand that my mother was very seriously Lutheran which is a very literal Christianity.
戴安娜：你必须明白，我母亲是非常认真的路德教教徒，这是一种非常字面的基督教。
The Bible, the earth was created in 6 days…
圣经里，地球是在六天内创造的……
So when I began to have feelings about wishing that I were a girl, there was just no way it could possibly be…
所以当我开始有希望自己是个女孩的感觉时，那是不可能的……
Okay!
好的！
And…
还有……
I kept thinking I was going to grow out of it
我一直以为我会长大并摆脱它
Diana: There was a kind of almost optimism about it in the face of pretty dark frustrations.
戴安娜：面对相当黑暗的挫折，人们有一种近乎乐观的态度。
That: “Ok, you’ll get through this just go to school, do your school, do your college get married and this will go away!“ And it never did go away.
那是：“好吧，你会度过这一切的，只要去上学，做你的学校，做你的大学结婚，这一切就会消失！”而且它从未消失。
Diana: That thing was always there, and there was no way to express it.
戴安娜：那个东西一直都在那里，而且没有办法表达出来。
There was nobody, there was no information, there was no library I could go to, there was just no place.
没有人，没有信息，没有我可以去的图书馆，没有地方。
And that was the real darkness, that there was kind of nothing to…
那才是真正的黑暗，没有什么可以……
help me think about it even.
甚至帮我想想。
What must this be?
这一定是什么？
What is this that could be going on with me that makes me have these feelings?
我身上到底发生了什么让我有这些感觉？
TV Reporter: Christine Jorgensen who used to answer to George creates quite a stir as she returns home to New York from Copenhagen.
电视记者：曾经为乔治负责的克里斯汀·乔根森从哥本哈根回到纽约的家中引起了不小的轰动。
Christine hits the headlines, following the series of operations in Denmark that transformed her from a boy into a girl.
克里斯汀在丹麦接受了一系列将她从男孩变成女孩的手术后，登上了头条新闻。
all of which made her a celebrity to meet and talk to when she stepped off the plane at the international airport.
所有这些都使她成为在国际机场走下飞机时可以见面并交谈的名人。
Gentlemen please, give her a chance to talk!
先生们，请给她一个说话的机会！
Christine: I’m very impressed by everyone coming
克里斯汀：大家的到来给我留下了深刻的印象
Reporter: Christine are you happy to be home?
记者：克莉丝汀回家高兴吗？
Christine: Yes of course!
克里斯汀：当然可以！
What American wouldn’t be?
哪个美国人不是？
Reporter: Have you been offered a movie contract?
记者：有没有给你拍电影合同？
Christine: Yes, but I haven’t accepted it
克里斯汀：是的，但我还没有接受
Reporter: Do you have any plans regarding the theatre?
记者：关于剧场，您有什么计划吗？
Reporter: Are you go on with your photography?
记者：你的摄影工作还在继续吗？
Christine: I hope so!
克里斯汀：我希望如此！
I’m very happy to be back, and I don’t have any plans at the moment, and I thank you all for coming but I think it’s too much!
我很高兴回来，目前我没有任何计划，我感谢大家的到来，但我认为这太多了！
Fine, thank you very much!
好的，非常感谢！
Diana: I was a paper boy, and I carried the paper.
戴安娜：我是一名报童，我负责送报纸。
And when I went down to pick up the papers, there was Christine Jorgensen on the front page.
当我下去取报纸时，克里斯汀·乔根森出现在头版。
And I think I sat down, and I read the story.
我想我坐下来读了这个故事。
Diana: I read it avidly.
戴安娜：我如饥似渴地读着它。
And that was it!
就是这样！
There was nobody I could talk to about it.
没有人可以和我谈论这件事。
If I were to talk to about it, "Oh, this is horrible", that would be that, this horrible, sinful thing that this person did to themselves and they will be damned to hell “
如果我要谈论它，“哦，这太可怕了”，那就是，这个人对自己做了这件可怕的、有罪的事情，他们将被诅咒下地狱“
Diana: All my friends would just make fun of it.
戴安娜：我所有的朋友都会取笑它。
Talking to my parents would be a disaster.
和我的父母交谈将是一场灾难。
Diana: It was illegal in this country!
戴安娜：这在这个国家是违法的！
So almost everybody in the country thought it was wrong.
所以全国几乎每个人都认为这是错误的。
All the doctors thought it was wrong, it was all wrong!
所有的医生都认为错了，全错了！
It was just barely beginning to be contemplated as something that was possible and might be conceivable.
人们才刚刚开始将其视为可能且可以想象的事情。
Diana: I was pretty sure that my mother would try to do something pretty radical if she thought that that was how I was, you know, put me away in an institution or do electroshock or pretty bad things because she sort of believed in how people who have these kinds of thoughts are treated.
戴安娜：我很确定，如果我母亲认为我就是这样的话，她会尝试做一些非常激进的事情，你知道，把我关进机构，或者做电击或非常糟糕的事情，因为她有点相信有这些想法的人会受到如何对待。
You know that they must be sick and they must be fixed.
你知道他们一定病了，必须治好。
I kind of knew that it could be really bad if I exposed myself.
我知道如果我暴露自己的话，情况可能会很糟糕。
Diana: So by the time I was in high school, I was a good athlete and I was a pretty good student.
戴安娜：所以当我上高中时，我是一名优秀的运动员，也是一名非常好的学生。
I played the trumpet and I played football and I played hm...
我吹小号，踢足球，我踢……
I sang in the choir and I grow up playing the game.
我在唱诗班唱歌，我是玩这个游戏长大的。
And I played it very well.
我玩得很好。
Diana: When I got a scholarship to Valparaiso university, I got into the theater department and I met Julie.
戴安娜：当我获得瓦尔帕莱索大学的奖学金时，我进入了戏剧系，并遇到了朱莉。
Diana: And through the years we got closer and closer
戴安娜：这些年来我们的关系越来越近
Diana: and it became kind of like we should…
戴安娜：这变得有点像我们应该……
We should probably get married.
我们或许应该结婚了。
I think we thought we loved one another.
我想我们以为我们彼此相爱。
And I told Julie about that I had this “problem.”
我告诉朱莉我有这个“问题”。
Diana: It was just like: “Oh well, okay, so, you have this little feminine side, sort of thing, it was not anything very substantial about it.
戴安娜：就像是：“哦，好吧，所以，你有一点女性化的一面，之类的，但这并不是什么实质性的东西。
But I’m glad you told me.”
但我很高兴你告诉我。”
Diana: It is very frustrating thing.
戴安娜：这是非常令人沮丧的事情。
When people speak as so: This is not a problem; all you have to do is change your mind.
当人们这样说时：这不是问题；这是问题。你所要做的就是改变主意。
And I’d say: Ok, when will my mind change?
我会说：好吧，我的想法什么时候会改变？
How does it change?
它是如何变化的？
What makes it change?
是什么让它改变？
“Well, you just don’t think about it.” None of those things are even close to relevant in my estimation and they certainly didn’t work for me.
“好吧，你就别想了。”在我看来，这些事情都与我无关，而且它们当然对我不起作用。
Betsy: Around 1994, my mother was going to surgery.
Betsy：1994 年左右，我母亲要去接受手术。
There was a 50/50 chance that she might die on the table.
她有 50/50 的机会死在桌子上。
That weekend, that Saturday, she started to tell me everything.
那个周末，那个星期六，她开始告诉我一切。
Betsy: She brought out boxes of photographs.
贝特西：她拿出几盒照片。
She brought out the book my father had written: A year among the girls by Darrel G Rayner.
她拿出我父亲写的书：达雷尔·G·雷纳（Darrel G Rayner）写的《女孩们的一年》。
Betsy: A book that nobody realizes he wrote except my mother.
贝特西：除了我母亲之外，没有人知道他写过这本书。
I was fascinated
我很着迷
Suddenly everything seemed to snap into place, I suddenly realized that, the church architect in California that I was so fond of, he was so fun:
突然间，一切似乎都水到渠成，我突然发现，我喜欢的加州教堂建筑师，他是如此有趣：
Betsy: he was one of the cross-dressers.
贝特西：他是异装者之一。
People I had stayed with in Ireland, he was a cross-dresser.
我在爱尔兰住过的人，他是个异装者。
Everybody that my parents were most close to was in the transvestite scene.
我父母最亲近的每个人都在异装癖场景中。
I suddenly realized why.
我突然明白了为什么。
Betsy: I went to summer camp for two months every single year starting when I was seven, two entire months, away.
贝特西：从我七岁开始，我每年都会去夏令营两个月，整整两个月。
So, my father could go up to Casa Susanna and dress.
这样，我父亲就可以去苏珊娜之家穿衣服了。
My mother drove him there and stayed with him, because he couldn’t drive!
我妈妈开车送他去那里并陪着他，因为他不会开车！
A lot of women were up there too, the wives, and I think they hung out together.
很多女人也在那里，我认为她们一起出去玩。
My mother drove him to Casa Susanna every weekend of the summer.
夏天的每个周末，我母亲都会开车带他去卡萨苏珊娜。
And I know that because that’s why I went to summer camp for 8 years!
我知道这一点，因为这就是我参加夏令营八年的原因！
Betsy: My father was Donald A.
贝特西：我的父亲是唐纳德·A.
Wollheim, he was one the founders of the entire science fiction industry.
沃尔海姆，他是整个科幻产业的创始人之一。
He wrote 18 science-fiction novels in a world, where people hadn’t even heard that term.
他在一个人们甚至没有听说过这个词的世界里写了 18 部科幻小说。
Betsy: He grew up in Manhattan.
贝特西：他在曼哈顿长大。
My grandparents owned a townhouse on 81st in (New) York.
我的祖父母在（纽约）纽约 81 号拥有一栋联排别墅。
And his childhood was extremely complicated and gothic.
而他的童年是极其复杂和哥特式的。
Betsy: My grandfather was a doctor, he graduated from Columbia Medical School in 1903.
贝特西：我的祖父是一名医生，1903 年毕业于哥伦比亚医学院。
And he practiced on the second floor of the house.
而且他在房子的二楼练习。
And in a brownstone, you have to walk through an entire floor to get to the next staircase, so his children had to walk through his medical offices to get to their bedrooms.
在褐砂石建筑中，你必须穿过整个楼层才能到达下一个楼梯，因此他的孩子们必须穿过他的医疗办公室才能到达他们的卧室。
And my grandfather was a specialist, he was a urologist who specialized in venereal diseases: syphilis and gonorrhoea, which at that time was incurable and deadly.
我的祖父是一位专家，他是一位泌尿科医生，专门研究性病：梅毒和淋病，这在当时是无法治愈和致命的。
So, he was terrified that his children would, running through the second floor, touch a wet doorknob, put their hand in their mouth and get gonorrhoea of the mouth.
所以，他很害怕他的孩子们跑过二楼，碰到湿漉漉的门把手，把手放进嘴里，感染口腔淋病。
So, he filled his children with a terror of the human body, really and of germs.
因此，他让孩子们充满了对人体的恐惧，实际上是对细菌的恐惧。
And I think that modelled his personality his whole life.
我认为这塑造了他一生的性格。
He was a very isolated…
他是一个非常孤立的人……
introvert, so, you know, he really wasn't a...
内向，所以，你知道，他真的不是...
wasn't really a naturally social creature, he was a shy man.
他并不是一个天生的社交动物，他是一个害羞的人。
Betsy: And I'm sure he felt ugly and hm...
贝特西：我确信他感觉很丑，嗯……
I think he had no relationship with women at all until he met my mother.
我认为他在遇到我母亲之前根本没有与女性发生过关系。
Betsy: Their first date, they met at the Tyrannosaurus rex in the Museum of Natural History.
贝特西：他们第一次约会是在自然历史博物馆的霸王龙馆里认识的。
And…
还有……
She was two hours late.
她迟到了两个小时。
And my father was still sitting there.
而我父亲还坐在那里。
And when she saw him sitting there, she burst into tears.
当她看到他坐在那里时，她泪流满面。
Because she realized he was really interested, otherwise, he would have left.
因为她知道他是真的感兴趣，不然的话，他早就离开了。
Betsy: I think she loved my father I mean, clearly, she loved him unconditionally, otherwise she would never have driven him every single weekend, up to the Catskills.
贝特西：我认为她爱我的父亲，显然，她无条件地爱他，否则她永远不会每个周末都开车送他去卡茨基尔山。
And I’m certain that she realized very early all about his cross dressing.
我确信她很早就意识到了他的变装。
Betsy: For the simple reason that when I was seven, eight, nine, my girlfriends and I, would play in the house when my mother was out and we would all put on her negligees.
贝特西：原因很简单，当我七岁、八岁、九岁的时候，我和我的女朋友们会在我妈妈外出时在家里玩耍，我们都会穿上她的睡衣。
And there was one negligee that was six feet long.
还有一件六英尺长的睡衣。
It was the prettiest one, six feet long, and it had a kind of drawstring at the chest so, you could expand the chest.
这是最漂亮的，有六英尺长，胸部有一种拉绳，这样你就可以扩大胸部。
And we all wanted to wear that one.
我们都想穿那一件。
Betsy: Of course, this was my father's nightgown.
贝特西：当然，这是我父亲的睡衣。
And…One year, my father said he was going to have a dress rehearsal because he was going to dress up as his sister, for Halloween the next day.
还有……有一年，我父亲说他要进行一次彩排，因为他要在第二天的万圣节打扮成他姐姐的样子。
So, I was 12.
那么，我12岁了。
And my father was in the bathroom for five hours!
我父亲在浴室里呆了五个小时！
And even at 12, I realized that wasn't…
甚至在 12 岁时，我就意识到那不是……
Usual.
通常。
For somebody just getting ready for a Halloween party.
对于刚刚准备参加万圣节派对的人来说。
And when he came out, I was really quite frightened because he looked very ghoulish to me.
当他出来时，我真的很害怕，因为他在我看来非常可怕。
He had shaved his arms, his legs, his chest, he had taped up his face.
他刮掉了胳膊、腿、胸口的毛，还用胶带封住了脸。
I ran into my bedroom and slammed the door.
我跑进卧室，关上门。
Because I was like, momentarily shocked.
因为我当时就感到震惊。
I knew pretty immediately that he was really into this.
我立刻就知道他真的很喜欢这个。
I just did not know the extent.
我只是不知道程度。
Reading her Father's Book: My wife and I drove up a Saturday morning.
读她父亲的书：星期六早上我和妻子开车来。
The weather was clear and cloudless.
天气晴朗，万里无云。
There was a sharp chill in the air and it was a three-hour drive upstate.
空气中弥漫着凛冽的寒意，而且距州北部还有三个小时的车程。
The last part of the drive took us a long, precipitous, winding roads near the edges of cliffs and higher and higher into the mountains.
旅程的最后一段，我们沿着悬崖边缘的漫长、陡峭、蜿蜒的道路，进入越来越高的山里。
Were we nervous?
我们紧张吗？
Of course, who would not be?
当然，谁不会呢？
Were we afraid?
我们害怕吗？
No!
不！
From these people, we had nothing to fear.
对于这些人，我们没有什么可害怕的。
But there's still that thrilling little tang in doing something secretive, something the rest of the world knew nothing about.
但做一些秘密的事情仍然有一种令人兴奋的感觉，一些世界上其他人一无所知的事情。
Something which might have an element of danger about it.
可能有危险因素的东西。
Katherine: So good to see friends from so long ago.
凯瑟琳：很高兴见到很久以前的朋友。
Betsy: I know…
贝琪：我知道……
I love hearing your voice!
我喜欢听你的声音！
Katherine: I take about 7 pills in the morning, 2 in the middle of the day, and one in the afternoon.
凯瑟琳：我早上服用大约 7 粒药片，中午服用 2 粒，下午服用 1 粒。
Betsy: If that makes you feel any better I take 14 pills every night when I go to bed, so…
贝特西：如果这能让你感觉好一点的话，我每晚睡觉时都会服用 14 粒药，所以……
Betsy: God, I feel like it’s been forever since we’ve seen each other.
贝特西：天哪，我感觉我们已经很久没有见面了。
You were such a good friend.
你真是个好朋友。
Betsy: I remember you, I remember you coming to the house, I remember your eldest when she was 4.
贝特西：我记得你，我记得你来到家里，我记得你的大女儿四岁的时候。
What did you think about my dad during this time?
这段时间你对我爸爸有什么看法？
Katherine: I always find him an admirable man.
凯瑟琳：我一直觉得他是一个令人钦佩的人。
He knew a lot.
他知道很多。
He spoke very intelligently about any topic you could raise.
他非常聪明地谈论了你可以提出的任何话题。
Katherine: He never talked about sex.
凯瑟琳：他从不谈论性。
Understandable enough between men, they don’t talk about sex.
男人之间不谈论性，这是可以理解的。
Of course they do!
他们当然知道！
But he never did.
但他从来没有这样做过。
So, I never made that link.
所以，我从来没有建立过这个链接。
He did tell me once about the night dress and how he couldn’t really be happy unless he was sleeping in the nightdress.
他确实曾经告诉过我有关睡衣的事，以及除非穿着睡衣睡觉，否则他不会真正快乐。
But that’s something that maybe I inferred maybe he implied that this happened, in adulthood.
但这也许是我推断的，也许他暗示这件事发生在成年时期。
That’s what I assumed.
这就是我的假设。
And he said on one occasion that he never even thought of cross-dressing until one time when he was particularly down, and your mother encouraged him to.
他有一次说过，他从来没有想过变装，直到有一次他特别沮丧，而你的母亲鼓励他这样做。
Betsy: That's really nice to hear.
贝特西：很高兴听到这个消息。
She was sad when she told me about it but I think she was just a very romantic person and my father was probably the least romantic man that ever drew breath so…Although in his book, he says they were in love, and I'm really surprised to see that he said that...
当她告诉我这件事时，她很伤心，但我认为她只是一个非常浪漫的人，而我的父亲可能是有史以来最不浪漫的人，所以……尽管在他的书中，他说他们相爱，看到他这么说我真的很惊讶……
Cause I never experienced, I I knew he loved my mother deeply, but I didn't see the in love part.
因为我从未经历过，我知道他深爱着我的母亲，但我没有看到爱的部分。
Katherine: After I had completed all the possible qualifications for librarianship, which was my profession in Australia, I had to choose a place where I could go to to add to the theory.
凯瑟琳：在我完成了所有可能的图书馆员资格（这是我在澳大利亚的职业）之后，我必须选择一个可以去补充理论的地方。
Katherine: At that time, I had also made contact with cross-dressers in the United States and Canada mainly; through a magazine called Transvestia.
Katherine：当时我也接触过主要在美国和加拿大的变装者；通过一本名为 Transvestia 的杂志。
All of my friends that had been corresponding with said: “Yes, do come.
所有与我有过通信的朋友都说：“是的，一定要来。
Would love to see you, love to know you".
很想见到你，很想认识你”。
And so, I found myself on a ship to Canada, a ship not on the sheeps !
所以，我发现自己在一艘开往加拿大的船上，这艘船不是在羊身上！
(joke) Yes, I was on a ship to Canada by way of Miami, And I was engaged at the time, so I had the the double confusion as to whether I would go to Canada and come back and be a normal man and just get married and live a normal life.
（笑话）是的，我乘船经迈阿密前往加拿大，当时我订婚了，所以我有双重困惑，我是否会去加拿大，回来做一个正常的男人，结婚，过正常的生活。
Or whether in fact, I would stay in North America and take the full change I didn’t know myself.
或者事实上，我是否会留在北美并接受我自己都不知道的全面改变。
Katherine: And so, when very soon after I arrived in Canada, Irene, my apartment mate said: “Why don’t we go down for the week-end to the Casa Susanna?” I was extremely interested So, we went down and
凯瑟琳：所以，当我到达加拿大后不久，我的室友艾琳说：“我们为什么不去卡萨苏珊娜度周末呢？”我非常感兴趣 所以，我们下去了
Katherine: Irene had warned people that I was coming with her and so, there were a select gathering of people at the resort waiting to meet this strange marsupial, trans dresser who was coming so far around the world.
凯瑟琳：艾琳警告人们我要和她一起去，所以，度假村里有一群经过精心挑选的人等待着见到这位奇怪的有袋动物，跨性别者，他远道而来，环游世界。
Katherine: When we arrived at the resort, it was dark by then.
凯瑟琳：当我们到达度假村时，天已经黑了。
Katherine: Maria was playing a card game with Gale and there was Lee who was a city engineer who I met through the magazine Transvestia And there was of course Susanna.
凯瑟琳：玛丽亚正在和盖尔玩纸牌游戏，李是一位城市工程师，我是通过《Transvestia》杂志认识的，当然还有苏珊娜。
Maria cooked a huge meal of spaghetti we sat around and talked, played card games and
玛丽亚做了一顿丰盛的意大利面，我们围坐在一起聊天，玩纸牌游戏，
talked about each other and talked about ourselves and for the very first time in my life I could talk to anyone I want to talk to.
互相谈论彼此，谈论我们自己，这是我一生中第一次可以与任何我想交谈的人交谈。
I could talk to them about subjects that the average person never even thought of as existing, let alone as a difficulty in society.
我可以和他们谈论普通人从未想过存在的话题，更不用说将其视为社会难题。
Katherine: You could actually react with people on a one to one basis, without there being any misunderstanding, without there being any need to say: "I know I sound like a man and
凯瑟琳：你实际上可以在一对一的基础上与人做出反应，不会有任何误解，也不需要说：“我知道我听起来像个男人，而且
I probably don’t look much like a woman but deep down inside, I'm a woman and I want you to treat me like a woman." There was no need for any of that.
我可能看起来不太像女人，但在内心深处，我是一个女人，我希望你像女人一样对待我。”这些都没有必要。
Katherine: The rest of the weekend a lot of people got into groups and said: “Why me?
凯瑟琳：周末剩下的时间里，很多人聚集在一起说：“为什么是我？
Why am I like this?
我为什么会这样？
What was this thing and why was it us and how is it different from being gay and how is it different from…
这是什么东西，为什么是我们，它与同性恋有何不同，与……有何不同？
Well in those days we thought we were just cross-dressers so…
好吧，在那些日子里，我们以为自己只是易装者，所以……
How was that different from being a transgender person who really wanted to change…
这与作为一个真正想要改变的跨性别者有什么不同……
It was a very difficult situation to try and sort out these different classifications of people.
尝试对这些不同的人进行分类是一个非常困难的情况。
Gregory: The Catskills were a getaway for people from the city to go up to the country enjoy swimming and fishing and boating and you know recreation especially in the fall.
格雷戈里：卡茨基尔山是人们从城市到乡村享受游泳、钓鱼和划船的度假胜地，尤其是在秋季，您可以享受休闲活动。
The country place that became known at “Casa Susanna” was initially an incredible property called Chevalier d’Eon which had a creek on it, a a pond…
以“Casa Susanna”而闻名的乡村地方最初是一处令人难以置信的房产，名为Chevalier d’Eon，上面有一条小溪、一个池塘……
As a child, I got to romp through the woods; we had a cornfield, we had cows because my grandmother leased out one of her fields for cows to graze on.
小时候，我经常在树林里嬉闹；我们有一块玉米地，我们有奶牛，因为我祖母租了一块田给奶牛吃草。
It was magical.
这太神奇了。
Gregory: Maria was my grandmother.
格雷戈里：玛丽亚是我的祖母。
An incredibly strong lady.
一位异常坚强的女士。
She came over from Italy to bring back her father who had come to America and become successful.
她从意大利过来，带回已经来到美国并取得成功的父亲。
And somehow, he got killed and all the money was stolen and Maria was left here as a child of 15.
不知何故，他被杀了，所有的钱都被偷了，玛丽亚被留在了这里，当时只有 15 岁。
She managed to get a job and worked really hard and finally built this wig shop on 5th avenue called “Maria’s” of course.
她设法找到了一份工作，并非常努力地工作，最终在第五大道上建立了这家假发店，当然叫“玛丽亚”。
Maria was from a very traditional Italian churchgoing family.
玛丽亚来自一个非常传统的意大利教堂家庭。
Always went to church on Sunday.
周日总是去教堂。
Every weekend we’d come over to her house and she’d cook a big dinner, and family was very important to her and there’d be three different type of pasta and arancinos and artichokes I remember those meals they were absolute feasts!
每个周末我们都会去她家，她会做一顿丰盛的晚餐，家庭对她来说非常重要，会有三种不同类型的意大利面、花生米和朝鲜蓟，我记得那些饭菜绝对是盛宴！
And the entire family came over and partook of them.
全家人都过来分享。
Gregory: And then one day she met Tito, this gentleman who came into the shop and was trying on wigs
格雷戈里：然后有一天，她遇到了蒂托，这位绅士走进商店试戴假发
Gregory: pretending it was for his sister or his niece or something like that.
格雷戈里：假装这是给他妹妹或侄女之类的。
And hm…
还有嗯……
She basically outed him and said: “Oh come on, I know this is for you!” He was rather shocked and…
她基本上把他揭发了，并说：“哦，来吧，我知道这是给你的！”他相当震惊，而且……
But, she did it in a loving way.
但是，她以充满爱的方式做到了这一点。
And he told me later that he was so impressed by her openness and by her acceptance of him that she was the one and special person in his life.
后来他告诉我，她的开放和她对他的接受给他留下了深刻的印象，她是他生命中唯一的、特别的人。
Gregory: Tito was very affable, energetic.
格雷戈里：蒂托非常和蔼可亲，精力充沛。
He was a radio commentator for the Latin American station in the United States.
他是美国拉丁美洲电台的广播评论员。
He used to come up to the country place for us and he used to dress as a woman and become Susanna.
他常常为我们来到乡下，他常常打扮成女人，变成苏珊娜。
Gregory: We weren’t supposed to know that and…So, one day I was at the porch in the country and Susanna grabbed me and sat down and had a conversation and revealed himself to me.
格雷戈里：我们不应该知道这一点……所以，有一天我在乡下的门廊上，苏珊娜抓住我，坐下来交谈，并向我展示了自己。
Gregory: And at the end of the conversation I told him, which he was very touched about that, “If my grand-mother loved you, then you were ok with me” And he was very touched by that.
格雷戈里：在谈话结束时，我告诉他，他对此非常感动，“如果我的祖母爱你，那么你就对我很好”，他对此非常感动。
Gregory: And then we found that they were getting married and went to the wedding and it was…I was very happy for Maria
格雷戈里：然后我们发现他们要结婚了，就去参加了婚礼……我为玛丽亚感到非常高兴
Gregory: cause she seemed very happy at the time I could see the sparkles in her eyes and I could see that they both cared and loved each other.
格雷戈里：因为当时她看起来很高兴，我可以看到她眼中的光芒，我可以看到他们彼此关心和爱着对方。
Gregory: But on the other hand, my mom Yolanda, Maria’s only child, thought morally it was wrong, she didn’t understand it.
格雷戈里：但另一方面，我的妈妈约兰达，玛丽亚唯一的孩子，认为这在道德上是错误的，她不理解。
No matter how many time Tito-Susanna tried to explain it to her.
无论蒂托-苏珊娜多少次试图向她解释这一点。
But then again, she couldn’t avoid it because Maria said: “This is what is going to happen, this is what is going to be, We are going to create
但话又说回来，她无法避免，因为玛丽亚说：“这就是将要发生的事情，这就是将要发生的事情，我们将创造
Gregory: a Club, in the Catskills for female impersonators shows.
格雷戈里：卡茨基尔的一家女性模仿者表演俱乐部。
Which she did.
她做到了。
Gregpory: Every Saturday night, they throw a female impersonator show and number and numbers of performers would come in and do different acts.
格雷格波里：每个周六晚上，他们都会举办一场女性模仿秀，很多表演者都会进来表演不同的表演。
It was actually quite a success up there.
实际上，那里非常成功。
Every Saturday night, they’d get 50, 75 people in the Wigwam including the mayor of the local town who would actually come to the show, which we thought was hilarious.
每个周六晚上，他们都会在棚屋里吸引 50 到 75 个人，其中包括当地城镇的市长，他们实际上会来观看演出，我们认为这很搞笑。
Gregory: And of course, we weren't allowed to be anywhere close to that; but what we did as precocious children would sneak around and stand on soapboxes, and peek in the windows, and then get found out, and dragged back to the house and…
Gregory：当然，我们不被允许接近这一点；我们必须这样做。但我们作为早熟的孩子所做的事情会偷偷溜走，站在肥皂盒上，往窗户里偷看，然后被发现，然后被拖回屋子，然后……
10 minutes later would be back to watch the show again.
10分钟后又回来看节目。
She wasn't too happy about that but…
她对此不太高兴，但是……
Gregory: This was part of Maria's world and it was part of her husband's world, so she embraced it wholeheartedly and was very supportive in any endeavour that he wanted to get into with her.
格雷戈里：这是玛丽亚世界的一部分，也是她丈夫世界的一部分，所以她全心全意地拥抱它，并且非常支持他想与她一起进行的任何努力。
Again, the the property was a beautiful place.
再说一次，这处房产是一个美丽的地方。
It was very private.
这是非常私人的。
So, a lot of people could go there and be who they were; and who they are.
所以，很多人可以去那里做他们自己；以及他们是谁。
So, we would have
所以，我们会有
Gregory: 10, 12, 15 people coming up every weekend to stay at the Bungalow Colony, which is what it was back then.
Gregory：每个周末都有 10、12、15 个人来住在 Bungalow Colony，当时就是这样。
And do a show every week!
并且每周都会表演一场！
Gregory: I had mixed feelings about that because there was peer pressure and there was couple of incidents where some of my local friends would come over and said: "Oh, guess what I saw today?" I said, "what?"; "I saw this big, burly guy in the hardware store wearing a dress and a wig and makeup!”
格雷戈里：我对此感觉很复杂，因为存在同侪压力，而且有几次我的一些当地朋友会走过来说：“哦，猜猜我今天看到了什么？”我说：“什么？” “我在五金店里看到这个身材魁梧的家伙，穿着裙子，戴着假发，还化了妆！”
And I said, "Oh yeah, really!".
我说：“哦，是的，真的！”。
In the meantime, the gentleman was staying at our house, so
与此同时，这位先生住在我们家，所以
I was somewhat mortified by that.
我对此感到有些羞愧。
But I came to a resolution of that, that I wasn't going to be ashamed; that this was who they were and who they are and if that's what they wanted to do and be, and it made them happy, who was I to judge them?
但我下定决心，我不会感到羞耻；这就是他们曾经的样子，他们现在的样子，如果这就是他们想要做的事情，想要成为的人，并且这让他们感到快乐，那么我有什么资格去评判他们呢？
Bus Driver: Okay passengers, new stop!
公交车司机：各位乘客好，新站了！
Hamptons, New York.
纽约州汉普顿。
Diana: Let me give you a hug.
戴安娜：让我拥抱你。
God it’s just unbelievable!
天哪，这简直令人难以置信！
Katherine: Did you ever meet Donald Wollheim?
凯瑟琳：你见过唐纳德·沃尔海姆吗？
Diana: You remember probably even better than I do!
戴安娜：你可能比我记得更清楚！
Diana: That was 62, So I must have been 24,23, maybe 25.
戴安娜：那是 62 岁，所以我一定是 24,23，也许是 25。
Betsy: That’s the year my father wrote about.
贝特西：那是我父亲写的那一年。
He said it was absolutely freezing!
他说那里真的很冷！
Diana: But the cold didn’t even affect me
戴安娜：但寒冷根本没有影响我
Betsy: He said everyone was sleeping with their male clothes and all their female clothes on, that’s how cold it was.
贝特西：他说每个人都穿着男装和女装睡觉，就是这么冷。
Katherine: I got as many blankets as I could find.
凯瑟琳：我找到了尽可能多的毯子。
Betsy: Absolutely, and he said he believed that that was the greatest group of transvestites that had ever gathered in the history of humanity!
贝特西：当然，他说他相信这是人类历史上最伟大的异装癖群体！
Which was absolutely-
这绝对是——
Katherine: There were lot of people, but I don't think it was a world record.
凯瑟琳：有很多人，但我不认为这是一个世界纪录。
Diana: It was, I mean it was certainly, an incredible experience for me, but it was almost out-of-body experience, it was so…
戴安娜：我的意思是，这对我来说当然是一次令人难以置信的经历，但这几乎是灵魂出窍的经历，它是如此……
so, powerful!
所以，强大！
Katherine: That weekend for the first time an attempt was being made to take all these disparate little groups of cross-dressers and form them into a national sorority and that was the work of Virginia Prince.
凯瑟琳：那个周末，人们第一次尝试将所有这些不同的异装者小团体组成一个全国联谊会，这就是弗吉尼亚·普林斯的工作。
She was a scientist, she lived on the West Coast.
她是一位科学家，她住在西海岸。
She was a very forceful personality.
她的性格非常强势。
She was a pain in the neck sometimes...
有时候她的脖子会痛……
And she, had the drive and she had the organizational skills to contact many of these small groups.
她有动力和组织能力来联系许多这样的小团体。
And of course Virginia went on editing the magazine Transvestia.
当然，弗吉尼亚继续编辑《Transvestia》杂志。
It was partly wish fulfilment fiction.
这在一定程度上是实现愿望的小说。
Badly written.
写得不好。
And partly stuff stolen from scientific magazines on cross-dressing.
部分内容是从科学杂志上偷来的关于异装的内容。
And there was a large social section.
还有一个很大的社交部分。
"Would you like to meet other people who cross-dress?" And so, people made their own little internal networks as well.
“你想认识其他变装的人吗？”因此，人们也建立了自己的小型内部网络。
Katherine: And so that is the reason why all those people finished up at that resort.
凯瑟琳：这就是为什么所有这些人都在那个度假村结束的原因。
Katherine: You didn’t get involved in the…
凯瑟琳：你没有参与……
Casa Susanna, did you?
卡萨苏珊娜，是吗？
Diana: No!
戴安娜：不！
No, I didn’t.
不，我没有。
as I say I mostly stayed away from the culture.
正如我所说，我基本上远离了这种文化。
Mostly, it's not so much staying away as not participating.
大多数情况下，与其说是远离，不如说是不参与。
Katherine: Sure, I understand I never adopted people because they were trans.
凯瑟琳：当然，我知道我从来没有收养过人，因为他们是跨性别者。
I adopted people because I liked them.
我收养了一些人，因为我喜欢他们。
Diana: So, I wanna go look inside of one of these.
戴安娜：那么，我想看看其中一个的内部。
I don’t remember, let’s see what they look like!
我不记得了，让我们看看他们长什么样吧！
Katherine: This is the one deluxe.
凯瑟琳：这是一间豪华房。
The one with the green side.
带有绿色一面的那个。
Diana: If they were hundred, I mean putting a hundred people in there that’s a pretty…
戴安娜：如果他们有一百个人，我的意思是把一百个人放在那里，那真是太棒了……
Katherine: Well, for an audience you can do it because you've got 10 in rows of 10, it's easy, but to accommodate them overnight, that's more of a difference.
凯瑟琳：嗯，对于观众来说，你可以做到这一点，因为你有 10 个，每排 10 个，这很容易，但要让他们过夜，那就有更大的不同了。
Diana: You bet!
戴安娜：你打赌！
You bet you know, two women standing here leaning up against the wall, you never know what kind of trouble we get into!
你肯定知道，两个女人靠着墙站在这里，你永远不知道我们会遇到什么样的麻烦！
Diana: Completely round is the perfect pearl…
戴安娜：完全圆的才是完美的珍珠……
Katherine: I’ll beat you with my stick if you sing that awful song.
凯瑟琳：如果你唱那首难听的歌，我就会用棍子打你。
Katherine: Oh, you sang it well, but the lyrics are silly.
凯瑟琳：哦，你唱得很好，但是歌词很傻。
Diana: They're very silly, they're supposed to be silly.
戴安娜：他们很傻，他们就应该傻。
Diana: I don’t even know how I got invited to Casa Susanna.
戴安娜：我什至不知道我是怎么被邀请到卡萨苏珊娜的。
I desperately of course wanted to go to this Halloween party.
我当然非常想去参加这个万圣节派对。
Diana: And I had no idea how I'd ever pull it off.
戴安娜：我不知道如何才能实现这一目标。
But I sort of got Julie to agree that it was it would be OK for me to do that, to maybe find some stuff out about myself.
但我让朱莉同意我这样做是可以的，也许可以找到一些关于我自己的东西。
Diana: So, off I went, and it was an incredibly dangerous adventure.
戴安娜：所以，我走了，这是一次极其危险的冒险。
With a big suitcase I stood on the highway, and I hitchhiked from Valparaiso, Indiana to Casa Susana.
我提着大行李箱站在高速公路上，从印第安纳州的瓦尔帕莱索搭便车到卡萨苏珊娜。
The first thing that happened wasI think we went into the main house and there was somebody there who would set my hair.
发生的第一件事是我想我们走进了主屋，那里有人帮我梳理头发。
Now, I never had my hair
现在，我从来没有头发
Diana: curled, ever.
戴安娜：卷发，永远。
It was just the most exciting experience, it was unbelievable to me!
这是最令人兴奋的经历，对我来说简直难以置信！
It's so unbelievable to me what's those small pleasures how thrilling they were.
让我难以置信的是，那些小小的快乐到底是多么令人兴奋。
I mean, it all seems kind of silly and funny.
我的意思是，这一切看起来有点愚蠢又有趣。
And it is, I mean, even then it was done with a light heart.
我的意思是，即便如此，这也是以轻松的心情完成的。
But it was also very piquant, very poignant.
但它也非常辛辣，非常令人心酸。
Diana: And one of the crossdressers Gloria, gave me this wonderful pair of shoes that had these high heels that were just spectacular, and they fit.
戴安娜：一位变装者格洛丽亚给了我一双很棒的鞋子，它的高跟鞋非常漂亮，而且很合脚。
And I was pretty successful.
我非常成功。
So, they were all kind of 'Oohing' and ‘ahhing’ and that was you know, great support.
所以，他们都发出“噢”和“啊”的声音，这就是你知道的，巨大的支持。
Made me feel really
让我真切地感受到
Diana: authentic, it made me feel like: "wow!
戴安娜：真实，这让我感觉：“哇！
This is…
这是……
I could really be like this"
我真的可以这样”
Diana: I remember that there were a lot of people.
戴安娜：我记得当时有很多人。
But individuals are not so clear to me.
但个人对我来说不是那么清楚。
I don't think it's so much that I didn't interact with the people in in fun ways.
我不认为我没有以有趣的方式与人们互动。
But I was so out of myself, it was just so incredible that the remembrance is not a part of what it felt like.
但我是如此的失控，这真是太不可思议了，以至于记忆并不属于那种感觉的一部分。
It's more really a feeling this incredible feeling of exaltation that was…sublime, it was…I mean, it was unreal, obviously.
更真实的是一种令人难以置信的兴奋感……崇高，这是……我的意思是，显然这是不真实的。
I mean, it was something that is just that, something I would never have, hoped could happen.
我的意思是，这就是我永远不会希望发生的事情。
Katherine: Oh, I remember that night!
凯瑟琳：哦，我记得那天晚上！
I did The Dance of the Little Swans.I had done a bit of training as a classical ballerina.
我演过《小天鹅之舞》。我接受过一些古典芭蕾舞演员的训练。
Katherine: So yes, I could dance on toe for 20 seconds.
凯瑟琳：是的，我可以用脚趾跳舞 20 秒。
Katherine: Some of the crossdressers were excellent.
凯瑟琳：有些变装者非常棒。
Some of them were very well done, well made-up, well dressed, good taste.
他们中的一些人做得很好，化妆得好，穿着得体，品味很高。
On the other hand of course, there were some who looked like Donald Duck in a drunken orgy or something like this.
当然，另一方面，也有一些人看起来像醉酒狂欢中的唐老鸭或类似的东西。
Katherine: Everyone wanted to just join in and be another woman amongst women.
凯瑟琳：每个人都想加入并成为女性中的另一个女性。
Gregory: The style at least in Casa Susanna wasn't vampy or very sexy, they were dressing up, as middle class women that would be putting on their Sunday best, and their finery.
格雷戈里：至少《苏珊娜之家》的风格不是吸血鬼或非常性感，她们的打扮就像中产阶级女性一样，会穿上她们周日最好的衣服和华丽的服饰。
And it wasn't like they wanted to be a Betty Page or something like that,they wanted to be an accepted person of the female persuasion in society.
她们并不是想成为贝蒂·佩奇或类似的人，她们想成为社会上被女性所接受的人。
And the transformation for most of them wasn't, an easy thing to accomplish.
对于他们中的大多数人来说，转变并不是一件容易完成的事情。
It took hours to get to the point where they were satisfied with their look.
他们花了几个小时才对自己的外表感到满意。
Gregory: To become Susanna, took hours.
格雷戈里：要成为苏珊娜，需要几个小时。
I mean, Tito was a perfectionist.
我的意思是，蒂托是一个完美主义者。
When he was becoming Susanna, I saw him tweeze every hair on his face, which was,
当他变成苏珊娜时，我看到他用镊子夹掉脸上的每一根头发，那就是，
Gregory: an incredibly long process.
Gregory：这是一个极其漫长的过程。
And I asked him: "It takes so long for you to transform!" and his answer was, "Well, it's worth it."
我问他：“你花了这么长时间才转变啊！”他的回答是：“嗯，这是值得的。”
Gregory: She loved to play the starring role.
格雷戈里：她喜欢扮演主角。
Aside from the cross-dressing shows that we did at the Wigwam and then when she was the Grand Dame at Casa Susanna.
除了我们在威格瓦姆（Wigwam）以及当她在卡萨苏珊娜（Casa Susanna）担任贵妇时所做的变装表演之外。
Loved to be out front and a performer, and…
喜欢站在前台和表演者，而且……
She just had this incredible personality that just spilt over everything.
她的个性令人难以置信，渗透到了一切。
Gregory: Susanna is owed the respect that is due her.
格雷戈里：苏珊娜应该受到应有的尊重。
She told me a story once that she was growing up in Chile, where she was from, and that she always knew that she wanted to be a woman.
她曾经给我讲过一个故事，她在智利长大，她来自那里，她一直都知道自己想成为一名女性。
So, this was not something that was a fad or a fixture.
所以，这不是一种时尚或固定的东西。
And Tito felt actually blessed, that he didn't have to hide it from Maria, that she was accepting all of it and it made his life a joy, rather than constant paranoia of who's going to find out, am I going to lose my job, or am I going to lose my family...
蒂托实际上感到很幸运，他不必向玛丽亚隐瞒，她接受了这一切，这让他的生活充满乐趣，而不是不断偏执地担心谁会发现我是否会失去工作，或者我是否会失去我的家人......
Which was what happened back then.
这就是当时发生的事情。
Archive Speaker: The big city attracts homosexuals and the liberal laws have made here, the biggest magnet of the nation.
档案发言人：这座大城市吸引着同性恋者，自由主义法律使这里成为全国最大的磁石。
The city can offer anonymity and permissiveness.
城市可以提供匿名性和宽容性。
The city’s downtown tenderloin district is the homeground of the always visible segment of the city’s homosexuals and transvestites.
该市市中心的里脊肉区是该市同性恋者和异装癖者的大本营。
The drag queens are here at Turk and Taylor.
变装皇后就在特克和泰勒。
So frequent were the fights between screaming queens in the 2 to 3am periods that police had had enough, and asked the all night cafeterias to close by midnight.
凌晨 2 点到 3 点期间，尖叫女王之间的打斗如此频繁，以至于警察已经受够了，并要求通宵营业的自助餐厅在午夜之前关闭。
Katherine: One thing you have to remember is that we are talking about the 1960s; when the cross-dressers were in some places illegal and certainly, in many places looked down on and bullied, and...
凯瑟琳：你必须记住的一件事是，我们谈论的是 20 世纪 60 年代；当异装者在某些地方是非法的，当然，在许多地方受到蔑视和欺凌，并且......
Had a bad time.
过得很糟糕。
It was a very hard time, back then to know, who to trust; and where do you get your information from.
那是一段非常艰难的时期，不知道该相信谁；以及您从哪里获取信息。
Katherine: One of the reasons why there are relatively few photographs taken at the Chevalier d'Eon resort and at the Casa Susanna.
凯瑟琳：在 Chevalier d'Eon 度假村和 Casa Susanna 拍摄的照片相对较少的原因之一。
People didn't like to have, they didn't like to lose control of the photographs that were taken of them.
人们不喜欢这样，他们不喜欢失去对为他们拍摄的照片的控制。
You'd be very unlikely to have someone come up and say: "Would you take a photograph of me on your camera?" Because they would know then that negative, that camera, would go away somewhere.
你不太可能有人走过来说：“你能用你的相机给我拍张照片吗？”因为那时他们就会知道底片、那台相机会消失在某个地方。
That person could do anything with those photos, and...
那个人可以对这些照片做任何事，而且......
We were all a little bit paranoid about having our reputations destroyed.
我们都有点偏执，担心自己的名誉会被毁。
Or having blackmail exercised on us.
或者对我们进行勒索。
Katherine: And because of the prejudice against gay people, they wanted to differentiate themselves.
凯瑟琳：由于对同性恋者的偏见，他们想使自己与众不同。
So, the resort was designed for cross-dressing men who were exclusively heterosexual.
因此，该度假村是专为异性恋的异装男士而设计的。
And they wanted their wives to be part of the organization.
他们希望自己的妻子成为该组织的一部分。
Gregory: Well, they label themselves as cross-dressers.
格雷戈里：嗯，他们给自己贴上易装者的标签。
They didn't label themselves as gay or transsexual.
他们没有给自己贴上同性恋或变性人的标签。
Most of them claimed that they were totally heterosexual.
他们中的大多数人声称自己完全是异性恋。
The times were the, you know, middle 50s through 60s, which reigned of McCarthyism, of anti-communist sentiment.
你知道，那个时代是 50 年代中期到 60 年代，麦卡锡主义和反共情绪盛行。
If someone was perceived as being gay it was it was a crime!
如果有人被认为是同性恋，那就是犯罪！
Let's face it, you could go to jail for that!
让我们面对现实吧，你可能会因此入狱！
In that context, not only do you come out and be a cross-dresser, but then you're gay on top of that, so that's like straight to!
在这种情况下，你不仅会出柜并成为一名异装者，而且除此之外你还会是同性恋，所以这就像是直接的！
You know, so you're getting a double whammy from the hm...
你知道，所以你会受到来自嗯的双重打击......
from the religious front, from the moral majority back then, and that was a moral majority back then.
从宗教方面，从当时的道德多数，那是当时的道德多数。
Archive Speaker: I have approached many, numerous firms asking them for any kind of work that they had to offer over a period of eight months.
档案发言人：我接触过很多很多公司，要求他们在八个月的时间内提供任何类型的工作。
The same response.
同样的反应。
We can't hire anybody of your caliber.
我们无法雇用像你这样有能力的人。
We don't want any of your people working for us.
我们不希望你的任何人为我们工作。
So, what else was I supposed to do when you get damn hungry?
那么，当你饿得要命的时候我还能做什么呢？
I'm not up here tonight for criticism.
今晚我来这里不是为了批评。
I'm up here for help.
我来这里寻求帮助。
Now I know about roughly about 20 of us girls who are very well qualified to do work legitimate work.
现在我知道大约有 20 名女孩非常有资格从事合法工作。
We don't want to hustle.
我们不想喧嚣。
We hate hustling.
我们讨厌喧嚣。
I do.
我愿意。
I hate it very bitterly.
我非常讨厌它。
But when I get starving for two and three days and somebody comes along, I'm going to take a meal off this because it's the only means available.
但是当我饿了两三天并且有人来的时候，我会用这个来吃饭，因为这是唯一可用的方法。
Gregory: Not only…
格雷戈里：不仅……
Did you have two strikes on you, but you were then a total degenerate.
你是不是受到过两次打击，但那时你已经彻底堕落了。
So, I think they wanted to skirt that issue, in order to again get a certain amount of acceptability or tolerance, let's use that word instead of acceptability, tolerance.
所以，我认为他们想回避这个问题，以便再次获得一定程度的可接受性或容忍度，让我们用这个词代替可接受性、容忍度。
Gregory: Maria wanted to become, the landing pad, so to speak and she walked on very fine lines because these people were major film directors, they were attorneys, they were tugboat captains, they were airplane pilots, there was...
格雷戈里：玛丽亚想成为，可以说，着陆场，她走得非常好，因为这些人是主要的电影导演，他们是律师，他们是拖船船长，他们是飞机飞行员，还有......
All sorts of professions that people reached, the pinnacle of their careers where they were making good money had great jobs
人们从事的各种职业，在他们职业生涯的顶峰赚大钱的地方都有很棒的工作
So, it must have been an extremely strong desire to do this.
所以，一定有非常强烈的愿望去做这件事。
Because they were rolling the dice every time that they became their alter ego.
因为每次他们成为自己的另一个自我时，他们都是在掷骰子。
And then if found out, the downside of it was horrendous.
如果被发现的话，其后果将是可怕的。
Who want to be brought into jail, dressed as a woman in your community?
在你的社区里，谁愿意打扮成女性而被带进监狱？
It would have been front page anywhere in the United States.
它会成为美国任何地方的头版。
So, hm...
那么，嗯...
They risked a lot for doing what they wanted to do.
他们为了做自己想做的事冒了很大的风险。
Katherine: That is Irene who was an aeronautical engineer.
凯瑟琳：那是艾琳，她是一名航空工程师。
She also was one who swore that she would never go anywhere near a sex change, she said: "Certainly not, what an idea!
她还发誓永远不会进行变性，她说：“当然不会，多好的主意啊！
Disgusting!
恶心！
I am a crossdresser and I will remain a cross-dresser!" And a couple of years after I returned to Australia, I had a letter saying: "Sit down before you read this.
我是一个易装者，而且我将继续是一个易装者！”回到澳大利亚几年后，我收到一封信，上面写着：“请坐下来阅读本文。
I've just had the operation." Felicity was an airline pilot with many years' experience.
我刚做完手术。”费莉西蒂是一名拥有多年经验的航空公司飞行员。
She had intended to be the first person to fly solo across the Atlantic.
她原本打算成为第一个独自飞越大西洋的人。
But Lindbergh beat her to it.
但林德伯格抢先了她。
Gale?
大风？
Katherine: Gale was the first person I met who used the technic of gluing elastic to the skin and then pulling it back to give a false and temporary safe facelift.
凯瑟琳：盖尔是我遇到的第一个使用将松紧带粘在皮肤上然后将其拉回以进行虚假的临时安全整容技术的人。
I learnt many things from Gale; and, one of the first was that there was someone else in the world like me, which was very important to know.
我从盖尔身上学到了很多东西；而且，第一个就是世界上还有像我这样的人，知道这一点非常重要。
That’s the Downtown group
这是市中心组
Katherine: Donna is the only one I recognized.
凯瑟琳：唐娜是我唯一认识的人。
Betsy: Donna, I thought was quite beautiful!
贝琪：唐娜，我觉得她很漂亮！
Katherine: And elegant too.
凯瑟琳：而且也很优雅。
She wasn’t just beautiful she was elegant.
她不仅美丽，而且优雅。
Betsy: I have never seen Don, Donna as Don.
贝特西：我从来没有见过唐，唐娜就是唐。
Ever!
曾经！
Had she transitioned?
她变性了吗？
Katherine: She had transitioned, and she had detransitioned.
凯瑟琳：她已经变性了，也已经变性了。
Katherine: I don't know.
凯瑟琳：我不知道。
Maybe she saw herself deteriorating.
也许她看到自己在恶化。
Maybe she just thought she was no longer the person she could have been and sadly, she decided just to walk back down that path she just climbed up her way up.
也许她只是认为自己不再是她本可以成为的人，可悲的是，她决定沿着她刚刚爬上去的那条路走回去。
Katherine: Gloria was large, she was about six foot four.
凯瑟琳：格洛丽亚很高，大约六英尺四英寸。
And she had had a stroke, so she was paralyzed on one side.
她还曾中风，所以一侧瘫痪。
But she did her best with her accumulated wealth to help other transgendered people.
但她尽最大努力用自己积累的财富来帮助其他变性人。
Katherine: She paid for their operation then she looked after them until they felt free to go out into society.
凯瑟琳：她支付了他们的手术费用，然后照顾他们，直到他们可以自由地融入社会。
When she died, the minister who conducted the ceremony had a problem because they had invited a lot of people.
当她去世时，主持仪式的部长遇到了问题，因为他们邀请了很多人。
Some of whom knew Rex and some who knew Gloria.
其中一些人认识雷克斯，一些人认识格洛丽亚。
And so, they put the Gloria people on one side of the church and the Rex people on the other.
因此，他们将格洛丽亚人放在教堂的一侧，将雷克斯人放在另一侧。
And the minister had to stumble his way through the eulogy, saying
部长不得不在悼词中结结巴巴地说道：
"This…
“这……
person was a fine…
人很好……
person and we should all…
人和我们都应该……
we should all honor this…person!"
我们都应该尊重这个……人！”
Katherine: That’s me.
凯瑟琳：那就是我。
And that's the wig that Maria put together for me.
这就是玛丽亚为我制作的假发。
Katherine: Oh great legs!
凯瑟琳：噢，腿真棒！
Of course, I admit that.
当然，我承认这一点。
Honesty forces me to admit that!
诚实迫使我承认这一点！
Oh dear.
哦亲爱的。
Bad!
坏的！
That was taken in my family home in Sydney.
那是在我悉尼的家中拍摄的。
That was what I used to do, for myself with my little homemade self-timer on camera.
这就是我过去常做的事，用我在相机上自制的小自拍。
And I would stand in the corner and take photographs, and all the doors were deadlocked.
我会站在角落里拍照，所有的门都锁着。
Betsy: I love the photos with you, with your natural hair.
贝特西：我喜欢和你一起拍的照片，还有你自然的头发。
You look more like yourself.
你看起来更像你自己。
And I like that.
我喜欢这样。
I love that photo!
我喜欢那张照片！
Don’t laugh, I love that photo!
别笑，我喜欢那张照片！
Betsy: I know but it's it's very, the way it covers one of your eyes is very fetching.
贝特西：我知道，但是它遮住一只眼睛的方式非常迷人。
I like it.
我喜欢它。
Betsy: I love that photo.
贝特西：我喜欢那张照片。
I love this one too!
我也喜欢这个！
So young!
这么年轻！
Katherine: Well, I would have been at university, so somewhere between 16 and 20.
凯瑟琳：嗯，我本来应该上大学，所以大概在 16 岁到 20 岁之间。
Betsy: So young…That is my father It’s in my mother’s house.
贝特西：那么年轻……那是我父亲，在我母亲家里。
There he is again.
他又来了。
Katherine: There is more of him around and dressed than I knew of.
凯瑟琳：他周围的人和穿着衣服的人比我知道的还要多。
Betsy: Oh yes, there are many, many photos of him in dresses.
贝特西：哦，是的，有很多很多他穿着裙子的照片。
Katherine: I’m learning things about your father every minute.
凯瑟琳：我每时每刻都在了解你父亲的情况。
Betsy: Yes, and here is my dad again.
贝琪：是的，我爸爸又来了。
That’s him again.
又是他。
That’s him again, with my mom.
又是他，和我妈妈一起。
I love that!
我喜欢那个！
She always has a look of adoration whenever she looks at him, you know.
她看他的时候总是带着崇拜的神情，你知道。
So, you didn't really see him dressed much?
那么，你真的没有看到他穿得很多吗？
Katherine: No!
凯瑟琳：不！
Not only once ever, I think!
我想，不止一次！
Betsy: Oh my God, there's many, many photos of him.
贝特西：天啊，有很多很多他的照片。
Here he is again.
他又来了。
Katherine: I'm certainly surprised because I had always been under the impression that he suppressed it as as much as possible, that was all going on in his head, but not in real life.
凯瑟琳：我当然很惊讶，因为我一直觉得他尽可能地压抑它，这一切都发生在他的脑海里，但不是在现实生活中。
Betsy: I think that was true for a few years and then it just, popped out!
贝特西：我认为这在几年内都是正确的，然后它就突然出现了！
Betsy: Although he has good legs too.
贝特西：虽然他的腿也很好。
I don't know where are these clothing were because they certainly weren't in our house.
我不知道这些衣服在哪里，因为它们肯定不在我们家里。
My mother always said that my father was a pure clothing fetishist.
我妈总说我爸是个纯粹的服装恋物癖。
But seeing all these photos...
但看到所有这些照片...
I can't help but wonder, was there more involved?
我不禁想知道，还有更多的事情吗？
What do you think?
你怎么认为？
What is your take on this?
您对此有何看法？
Katherine: My take on this is that no one knows, no one will ever know, what goes on in some of the depths of someone's mind.
凯瑟琳：我对此的看法是，没有人知道，也没有人会知道某人内心深处正在发生什么。
Who knows?
谁知道？
The shadow know, only the shadow know.
影子知道，只有影子知道。
Betsy: Yes.
贝琪：是的。
That's only the shadow knows.
这只有影子知道。
Who is that?
那是谁？
Katherine: I don’t know.
凯瑟琳：我不知道。
Quite attractive though.
不过还是蛮吸引人的。
Diana: Is that me?
戴安娜：是我吗？
Is that really me?
那真的是我吗？
Are you sure?
你确定吗？
Somebody said so huh?
有人这么说啊？
Is that really me?
那真的是我吗？
Where would that have been?
那会在哪里呢？
Oh god, I can’t stand it!
天哪，我受不了了！
This is unbelievable!
这太难以置信了！
I don’t believe that’s me.
我不相信那是我。
Is that really me?
那真的是我吗？
Oh, wait a minute.
哦，等一下。
\ Diana D, that’s not me.
\戴安娜·D，那不是我。
This is not me.
这不是我。
That’s not me.
那不是我。
That’s not me.
那不是我。
These are not me.
这些不是我。
That could be me…This is kind of an embarrassing picture but it says my name right on the back so it must be me.
那可能是我……这是一张有点尴尬的照片，但背面写着我的名字，所以一定是我。
This is me!
这就是我！
These are definitely me.
这些绝对是我。
Those three are definitely me.
这三个人绝对是我。
My hair grown quite long by that time.
那时我的头发已经长得很长了。
This is right around when I got surgery.
这是我做手术时的情况。
And I was feeling my oats.
我感觉到了我的燕麦。
I was pretty happy here.
我在这里很开心。
Very very happy.
非常非常高兴。
Diana: Coming here made me realize that is really how I needed to be.
戴安娜：来到这里让我意识到这确实是我需要成为的样子。
And I had to face up to that.
我必须面对这一点。
Diana: This was so powerful for me, and so important; that I had to figure out a way…To allow it to…
戴安娜：这对我来说是如此强大，如此重要；我必须想出一种方法……让它……
Bloom.
绽放。
Diana: So, after this Halloween party, we went to Gale’s place in the city.
戴安娜：所以，在这个万圣节派对之后，我们去了盖尔在城里的住处。
And so, I stayed there for a couple of days, always as Diana, I was Diana of the whole time.
所以，我在那里呆了几天，始终以戴安娜的身份，我一直都是戴安娜。
And then I got this call from Julie.
然后我接到朱莉打来的电话。
And the sad part was that she had had a miscarriage
可悲的是她流产了
Diana: That was that was like a real…
戴安娜：那就像一个真正的……
kick in the head.
踢在头上。
Because the kind of almost the worst thing that you can imagine happening, when you're in the middle of this blissful pleasure and your and your beloved is having a miscarriage.
因为当你正处于这种幸福的快乐之中，而你和你所爱的人却流产时，你能想象到的最糟糕的事情就会发生。
There's just something kind of very dissonant about that and very unhappy.
这确实是一种非常不和谐且非常不高兴的事情。
Katherine: When I went back to Australia after my degree.
凯瑟琳：当我获得学位回到澳大利亚时。
I was determined to marry.
我下定决心要结婚。
I was determined to give up cross-dressing and I thought it would be almost automatic.
我决心放弃异装，我认为这几乎是自然而然的。
A great many cross-dressers think: "Oh, once I get married, it'll all go away.
很多异装癖者会想：“哦，一旦我结婚了，一切都会消失。
I won't need this imaginary woman that inhabits half of my body and most of my mind.”
我不需要这个想象中的女人，她占据了我一半的身体和大部分的心灵。”
Katherine: But it didn't work out that way.
凯瑟琳：但事情并非如此。
I still had the urges to dress even when I was engaged and as the marriage drew closer and closer.
即使我订婚了，随着婚姻越来越近，我仍然有穿衣服的冲动。
And finally, I had decided I really, in fairness, had to tell her about myself before we got married.
最后，我决定，公平地说，我必须在结婚前告诉她我自己的情况。
And at that point, her father was killed in a road accident, so, I couldn't tell her.
那时，她的父亲在一场车祸中丧生，所以，我不能告诉她。
I couldn't bring two tragedies into her life, so close together.
我不能让两场悲剧如此紧密地发生在她的生活中。
So I determined instead to give up anything to do with cross-dressing for a full year.
所以我决定一整年放弃任何与异装有关的事情。
And maybe I could give it up completely then.
也许那时我可以完全放弃它。
And at least I wouldn't have committed myself to life, I would be able to either renew my vow for masculinity or else I would give away and go forward towards being feminine.
至少我不会承诺自己的生活，我将能够更新我的男性气质誓言，否则我会放弃并继续成为女性。
So, one year after we’re married, I told my wife about myself and She was…
所以，我们结婚一年后，我告诉我的妻子我自己，她……
quite naturally very upset.
很自然地很不高兴。
But in a few days' time, she came back to me and said that we would try and
但几天后，她回来找我说我们会尽力
make it work because that's what marriage was about.
让它发挥作用，因为这就是婚姻的意义。
And we did make it work through three children and 25 years.
经过 3 个孩子和 25 年的努力，我们确实做到了这一点。
Betsy: In the early 60s my father’s obsessions was getting worse.
Betsy：在 60 年代初，我父亲的痴迷变得越来越严重。
Betsy: So, he flew out to the West coast to meet Virginia.
贝特西：所以，他飞往西海岸去见弗吉尼亚。
He wanted somebody to talk to about this very secret subject completely under cover.
他希望有人能完全秘密地谈论这个非常秘密的话题。
And so, Virginia suggested Susanna and Gale.
因此，弗吉尼亚建议苏珊娜和盖尔。
Betsy: Gale and Susanna both had meeting places, for men of this nature, this ilk.
贝特西：盖尔和苏珊娜都有聚会场所，适合这种性质的男人。
David was in the village, so it was the “Downtown group”.
大卫在村里，所以是“市中心组”。
And Susanna was in Midtown, so she was the “Midtown Group”.
而苏珊娜在中城，所以她是“中城集团”。
So, my father wrote a letter to Susanna and Gale.
于是，我父亲给苏珊娜和盖尔写了一封信。
Betsy: And Gale answered within a week.
贝特西：盖尔在一周内回复了。
And they both just hit it off.
他们俩一拍即合。
Betsy: He would say he was going book hunting, on Saturday.
贝特西：他会说周六他要去寻书。
But I really think a lot of those times he didn't come back with books.
但我真的认为很多时候他都没有带书回来。
He came back occasionally with books, but not usually.
他偶尔会带着书回来，但通常不会。
And, I think he went to David Wilde’s house on 11th Street.
而且，我认为他去了大卫·王尔德位于 11 街的家。
Betsy: But he knew he would have to tell my mother.
贝特西：但他知道他必须告诉我妈妈。
He asked advice from Virgina .
他向维吉娜寻求建议。
And Virginia said: “Come at it slowly”
弗吉尼亚说：“慢慢来”
Betsy: And so, he did.
贝特西：所以，他做到了。
He started to wear
他开始穿
Betsy: nylon tricot and he eventually went night gown shopping with my mother.
贝特西：尼龙经编，他最终和我妈妈一起去买睡衣。
Betsy: When I was 12 was it 1964.
贝特西：1964 年，我 12 岁。
So, I think that was about the time when he may not have opened the whole door to her.
所以，我认为那是他可能没有向她敞开大门的时候。
Because I think, she felt it was just something between them originally.
因为我想，她本来就觉得这只是他们之间的事情。
Betsy: But when she discovered the network and she realized it wasn't gonna stop, it wasn't a phase…
贝特西：但是当她发现这个网络并意识到它不会停止时，这不是一个阶段......
Betsy: There was some watershed moment from my mother.
贝特西：我母亲经历了一些分水岭时刻。
Diana: Julie and I, we loved one another.
戴安娜：朱莉和我，我们彼此相爱。
And the love was beyond all the other things about ourselves.
这种爱超越了我们自己的一切。
But we were innocent in some ways about life and about how people are and can be.
但我们在某些方面对生活、对人的本质和能力是天真的。
So, we thought New York would be a place where I could learn how I really was.
所以，我们认为纽约将是一个让我了解真实自我的地方。
And it wasn’t so much that it will all be healed.
并不是说一切都会被治愈。
But if there were any place where it could be healed, it would be someplace like New York.
但如果有什么地方可以治愈它，那一定是像纽约这样的地方。
Diana: Her hope was that it would be.
戴安娜：她希望如此。
It would be something we could live with.
这将是我们可以忍受的事情。
And that was my hope too.
这也是我的希望。
Diana: So we decided to move to New York and go visit Harry Benjamin and see if there is anything to be done for me.
戴安娜：所以我们决定搬到纽约去拜访哈里·本杰明，看看是否有什么可以为我做的。
At that time, anybody who is even remotely thinking of surgery had to see Harry Benjamin.
那时，任何想要做手术的人都必须去见哈利·本杰明。
Diana: I didn’t dress all that much I don’t think.
戴安娜：我觉得我穿得并不多。
Julie and I would visit Gale and we would visit Susanna.
朱莉和我会拜访盖尔，我们也会拜访苏珊娜。
Julie was very much apart.
朱莉很疏远。
Although she was often, tortured by it, because she didn't understand it.
尽管她经常被它折磨，因为她不明白。
It was not...
这不是...
It was not pleasant for her.
这对她来说并不愉快。
But she was willing to go on with that because she wanted this to turn out…
但她愿意继续下去，因为她想要这样的结果……
OK, for both of us.
好吧，对我们俩来说。
Diana: And then, I started to take hormones, I started to develop a little bit.
戴安娜：然后，我开始服用激素，我开始发育一点。
And it became apparent that was what I wanted.
很明显这就是我想要的。
So, we came to realize that this really couldn’t work.
所以，我们开始意识到这确实行不通。
So, she moved back to Valparaiso, where a good friend of ours, Paul, asked her to marry him.
因此，她搬回瓦尔帕莱索，我们的好朋友保罗向她求婚。
Diana: So, Julie and I were separated.
戴安娜：所以，朱莉和我分开了。
I was working at a public relations place.
我当时在一家公关公司工作。
I was taking hormones.
我正在服用激素。
I was doing electrolysis and I was…It became more and more known that I wanted to have surgery.
我正在做电解术，我……越来越多的人知道我想做手术。
Diana: But it didn't seem any way for me, possibly to do it because it was thousands of dollars.
戴安娜：但对我来说似乎没有办法，可能因为它需要数千美元。
But then Gloria did call.
但后来格洛丽亚确实打来电话了。
Diana: We went out for dinner.
戴安娜：我们出去吃晚饭了。
And…
还有……
He said : "Well, if you really want to do this, I'll help you out.
他说：“好吧，如果你真的想这么做，我会帮你的。
Diana: I'll take you out to California and we'll find a place for you to do this, I'll pay for it and you can stay with me!" So, I resigned and I hm…
戴安娜：我会带你去加利福尼亚，我们会为你找到一个地方，我会付钱，你可以和我住在一起！”所以，我辞职了，我嗯……
tried to pull everything together.
试图把一切整合在一起。
I changed to Diana.
我换成了戴安娜。
The night before the flight, and that was the last time I was David.
起飞前一天晚上，那是我最后一次成为大卫。
Diana: It was a very rough flight to California.
戴安娜：飞往加利福尼亚州的航班非常艰难。
I thought that I was going to die and God would have gotten me.
我以为我快要死了，上帝会抓住我的。
Diana: And my mother was right all along!
戴安娜：我妈妈一直都是对的！
But fortunately, the plane landed.
但幸运的是，飞机最终降落了。
Diana: And we just kind of leisurely made our way across the country.
戴安娜：我们就悠闲地穿越了这个国家。
And then, we went to Tijuana.
然后，我们去了蒂华纳。
In the United States, this was illegal.
在美国，这是非法的。
Everybody agreed that it was right that it was illegal.
大家一致认为，这是非法的，这是正确的。
So, there was no way to find a moral place to stand.
所以，没有办法找到道德的立足点。
And that’s a very isolating experience for any human being I think to feel that who you are is against the law.
我认为，对于任何感觉自己违法的人来说，这都是一种非常孤立的经历。
There's still a little bit of anger in me even now that I actually had to leave the country to have the surgery done.
即使现在我实际上必须离开这个国家才能完成手术，我心里仍然有一点愤怒。
I feel wronged about that.
对此我感到很委屈。
Diana: I woke up, and it was pretty fierce pain.
戴安娜：我醒了，感觉非常疼痛。
And my surgery was certainly not the most refined of the surgeries.
我的手术当然不是最精致的手术。
I would have wished that I'd been able to go another place.
我真希望我能够去另一个地方。
Casablanca was the place at the time.
卡萨布兰卡就是当时的地方。
But that I didn't have that and I, I was very grateful that I got what I got.
但我没有，我非常感激我得到了我所得到的。
But it was very painful.
但这是非常痛苦的。
It was in a hospital where nobody spoke...
那是在医院里，没有人说话……
everybody spoke Spanish, so I learned "mucho dolor" and "agua caliente"
每个人都说西班牙语，所以我学会了“mucho dolor”和“agua caliente”
Diana: Then, Gloria decided we should drive back to Pennsylvania and on the way we should stop in Iowa and visit my parents.
戴安娜：然后，格洛丽亚决定我们应该开车返回宾夕法尼亚州，途中我们应该在爱荷华州停留并拜访我的父母。
We drove across the country, Gloria and I.
格洛丽亚和我开车穿越整个国家。
And we stopped in Omaha, and my father came to meet us.
我们在奥马哈停了下来，我父亲来接我们。
Diana: I remember I was in the room and my hair was in curlers and he came into the room.
戴安娜：我记得我在房间里，我的头发夹着卷发器，然后他走进了房间。
He just, came across a room and gave me a big hug and said, "I'm so glad to see you."
他只是走过一个房间，给了我一个大大的拥抱，说：“我很高兴见到你。”
It was…truly an amazing, amazing gift of love.
这真是一份令人惊奇、令人惊奇的爱的礼物。
He was an incredible kind of marriage of
他的婚姻令人难以置信
strength and softness.
强度和柔软度。
He was both an incredibly strong, masculine man.
他是一个非常坚强、有男子气概的男人。
But he was an incredibly gentle soul as well.
但他也是一个非常温柔的灵魂。
Diana: That's always been a model…
戴安娜：那一直是一个模特……
for how people should be.
人应该怎样。
That they should…
他们应该……
Have a zest for life and a love for the excitement of life, but a willingness to...
对生活充满热情，热爱生活的刺激，但愿意……
To give and to...
给予和给予...
have vulnerability, to be vulnerable.
有脆弱性，有脆弱性。
And my dad was just an incredibly…He crossed all of those, and he was a simple man, he was not he was not some super educated or, he was just a very good being.
我的父亲是一个令人难以置信的......他跨越了所有这些，他是一个简单的人，他不是，他不是受过高等教育，或者，他只是一个非常好的人。
Diana: But that did not produce a super good relationship with my parents because was my mother was just…
戴安娜：但这并没有与我父母建立非常好的关系，因为我母亲只是……
It was just too much.
实在是太多了。
you know, they were in a small town.
你知道，他们在一个小镇上。
It was embarrassing quotes, embarrassing to them for me to show up, to be around.
这是令人尴尬的引言，让他们对我的出现和在场感到尴尬。
I was an embarrassment.
我很尴尬。
So, it was it was just as well for to them that I was kind of disappeared.
所以，我的消失对他们来说也是好事。
Katherine: My relationship with my wife was never the kind of secret that is hidden away in a closet.
凯瑟琳：我和妻子的关系从来都不是那种隐藏在壁橱里的秘密。
Back in Australia, when I went to a dinner or a party or whatever, she knew where I was going and who I was going to be with.
回到澳大利亚，当我去参加晚宴或聚会或其他什么活动时，她知道我要去哪里以及我要和谁在一起。
And in fact, she even came to a few of the functions with me.
事实上，她甚至和我一起参加了一些活动。
Katherine: But when we moved back to America after a few years, we met the Downtown Branch and sometimes others.
凯瑟琳：但是几年后我们搬回美国时，我们遇到了市中心分公司，有时还有其他人。
Katherine: But after I don’t know, 4 or 5 times, she said she would really rather not come because she was afraid of hurting people's feelings by calling them by the wrong name.
凯瑟琳：但是不知有四五次，她说她真的不想来，因为她害怕叫错名字而伤害别人的感情。
Katherine: In these days I should add that we didn’t visit Casa Susanna.
凯瑟琳：我应该补充一下，这些天我们没有参观卡萨苏珊娜。
Katherine: Mainly because the resort had disappeared I would ask, you know, "How's Marie?" And people would say: "We we think she's dead".
凯瑟琳：主要是因为度假村消失了，我会问，“玛丽怎么样？”人们会说：“我们认为她死了”。
And when I'd ask: "And what about the resort?"
当我问：“那度假村呢？”
They'd say: "Oh, it closed years ago.
他们会说：“哦，它几年前就关门了。
We don't know." So, it was only four or five years since I'd been there.
我们不知道。”算起来，我去那儿也不过四五年了。
It was nonetheless as if the resort had been all imagination and had never existed.
尽管如此，度假村就好像完全是想象中的一样，从未存在过。
And it was strange because no one knew.
这很奇怪，因为没有人知道。
You imagined that someone at least would have known the truth about something, Where’s Tito?
你想象至少有人会知道某件事的真相，蒂托在哪里？
nobody knows.
没有人知道。
Katherine: But that was only one part of our lives so anyway.
凯瑟琳：但这只是我们生活的一部分，所以无论如何。
I was too busy with myself.
我太忙于自己了。
Katherine: It wasn't so much that the urge was increasing, but the time was passing.
凯瑟琳：并不是说欲望在增加，而是时间在流逝。
And I knew that the proportion of my life that I would have to spend as a woman was diminishing compared to the proportion of my life that I had already spent and would spend as a man.
我知道，与我作为男人已经度过的和将要度过的人生比例相比，我作为一个女人必须度过的人生比例正在减少。
And so, the pressure became greater.
于是，压力就更大了。
Katherine: I kept wanting more and more.
凯瑟琳：我一直想要越来越多。
I wanted to dress more frequently, I wanted to dress with more freedom.
我想更频繁地穿衣服，我想更自由地穿衣服。
I felt that, I'd spent the first third of my life being the person that my family wanted me to be.
我觉得，我一生的前三分之一都是在成为家人希望我成为的人。
And the second third of my life I had spent being my marital family wanted me to be.
我生命的后三分之一是在婚姻家庭希望我成为的人中度过的。
And I wanted time for myself to be the person I wanted to be.
我想要时间让自己成为我想成为的人。
Katherine: And of course, several of my friends committed suicide.
凯瑟琳：当然，我的几个朋友自杀了。
And I thought, "Is this the way I have to go?
我想：“这是我必须走的路吗？
Is there any way that I'll ever get away from this circle of being John and Catherine and John and Catherine.
有什么方法可以让我摆脱约翰和凯瑟琳的圈子吗？
Maybe I have to break the marriage or commit suicide.” And, when I went to my wife and told her that I needed to try living as a woman, she seemed to be very sympathetic and say: "Well, you can't have anything else happening that's worse!” because I think I phrase it: "I have to try living as a woman or I'll do something silly" It was my phrase.
也许我必须解除婚姻或者自杀。”而且，当我去找我的妻子，告诉她我需要尝试作为一个女人生活时，她似乎非常同情并说：“好吧，你不能再发生比这更糟糕的事情了！”因为我想我说过：“我必须尝试像女人一样生活，否则我会做一些愚蠢的事情”这是我的一句话。
And she said: "Well, we can't have that." And we obviously both were talking about suicide.
她说：“好吧，我们不能这样。”显然我们都在谈论自杀。
And…I thought it was all going to be all right.
而且……我以为一切都会好起来的。
I told my family.
我告诉我的家人。
My eldest daughter burst into tears and said: "Is that all it is?" Because they'd seen the distress that I was under, the stress that my wife was under.
大女儿泪流满面地说：“就这样吗？”因为他们看到了我所承受的痛苦，我妻子所承受的压力。
And they had assumed that like all every second family around us, I was having an affair with some other woman.
他们认为，就像我们周围的所有第二个家庭一样，我与其他女人有染。
Of which I was, of course, but it was me.
当然，我也是其中之一，但那是我。
So that was the situation that was really what pushed me over the edge.
这就是真正将我推向悬崖的情况。
Katherine: I had the operation early in February, and at the end of the operation, I felt absolutely marvelous, I felt that for the first time in my life,
凯瑟琳：我在二月初做了手术，手术结束时，我感觉非常奇妙，我有生以来第一次感觉到，
Katherine: I was the real person and...
凯瑟琳：我是真实的人并且......
That I had discarded those bits of me that weren't necessary andI had gained those bits of me that were.
我已经放弃了那些不需要的部分，而我获得了那些需要的部分。
Katherine: When I told my family it was just a shock to them…
凯瑟琳：当我告诉家人这件事时，他们感到很震惊……
That there weren't really any questions that they could ask or that I could answer.
他们实际上没有任何问题可以问或者我可以回答。
Katherine: One daughter has been my best friend virtually ever since the operation.
凯瑟琳：自从手术以来，我的一个女儿实际上一直是我最好的朋友。
The other two don't want to know me as Katherine.
另外两个不想知道我是凯瑟琳。
One of them I haven't seen for many years.
其中一位我已经很多年没见过了。
The other one wrote me a letter of hope when I had my first heart operation hoped that I would recover soon and be well and so on.
另一位在我第一次心脏手术时给我写了一封希望信，希望我早日康复，一切都好等等。
I thought: "Here is an opportunity I can take.
我想：“这是一个我可以抓住的机会。
It would've been worth having my triple bypass if I can make a contact with my daughter.
如果我能与我的女儿取得联系，那么我的三重旁路就值得了。
“ And so, I wrote back to her and thanked her and said: "Maybe when I came out of the hospital, we could sit down for coffee and have a talk".
“所以，我给她回了信，感谢她，并说：“也许当我出院时，我们可以坐下来喝杯咖啡，聊聊。”
And I received a reply which said, "it's too soon”.
我收到了回复说：“现在还太早”。
So, I still haven't seen her.
所以，我还是没有见到她。
I drove home calm and filled with thoughts of the astonishing secret world I had come into.
我平静地开车回家，心里充满了对我所进入的令人惊讶的秘密世界的思考。
I had heard some astonishing stories, but I could not visualize myself taking part in such adventures.
我听过一些令人惊奇的故事，但我无法想象自己参与这样的冒险。
There is indeed a certain dead-end element in Gale's life.
盖尔的生活中确实存在某种死胡同。
It was evident in everything he said and did that he looked back on each episode as something guilt ridden.
从他所说和所做的一切中可以明显看出，他回顾每一件事都感到内疚。
He was like a man on a toboggan slide, enjoying the sensation, unable to get off and having no idea of what cliff or wall might lie at the bottom.
他就像一个人在平底雪橇滑梯上，享受着这种感觉，却无法下车，也不知道底部可能是什么悬崖或墙壁。
I saw Gale as a man laughing to cover up her desire to scream as joking, to keep from crying; as running, to avoid having to stop and look at himself.
我看到盖尔是一个男人，他用笑来掩饰她想像开玩笑一样尖叫的欲望，以免哭出来。就像跑步一样，以避免不得不停下来看看自己。
Betsy: My father was somebody, I think who really couldn't change.
贝特西：我认为我的父亲是一个无法改变的人物。
Betsy: Even as Doris, my father was still Donald.
贝特西：即使是多丽丝，我的父亲仍然是唐纳德。
Betsy: I have a letter from him to my mother from 1942 where he says: "This is the way I am.
贝特西：我有一封 1942 年他写给我母亲的信，信中他说：“我就是这样的。
I am I'm prone to moods.
我是一个容易情绪化的人。
I have very, I wake up in the morning, one morning and everything is shit and all people are crap and, there's no good place for anything and nothing good to ever happen, and that's the way I feel.
我有过这样的经历，我早上醒来，有一天早上，一切都是狗屎，所有人都是狗屎，没有什么好地方可以发生任何事情，也没有什么好事会发生，这就是我的感觉。
And then I wake up another morning and, everything seems fine and fun, and nice and interesting" And that's the way he was his whole life.
然后我又一个早上醒来，一切看起来都很好、很有趣、很好、很有趣”，这就是他的一生。
Betsy: And after they had me, things were really happy, for the first ten maybe years of my life.
贝特西：在他们有了我之后，在我生命的头十年里，事情真的很幸福。
But as I started to go through puberty, my father hm...
但当我开始进入青春期时，我的父亲嗯......
Started to get insulting.
开始受到侮辱。
And say things like "looks like me, poor kid"
并说“看起来像我，可怜的孩子”之类的话
Betsy: He said things to me that were absolutely
贝特西：他对我说了一些绝对正确的话
Betsy: unforgivable.
贝琪：不可原谅。
unforgivable.
不可原谅的。
When I was 12 years old, I was 12, I was in sixth grade, 12.
当我12岁的时候，我12岁，我读六年级，12岁。
He said I was a liar, a cheat and a fraud.
他说我是个骗子、骗子、骗子。
How could a 12 year be a fraud?
12年怎么可能是骗局呢？
And I never lied, I told my mother everything.
我从不撒谎，我把一切都告诉了妈妈。
My friends would tease me that I tell mommy everything.
我的朋友们会取笑我，说我把一切都告诉了妈妈。
I didn't lie.
我没有撒谎。
I didn't cheat because I was the smartest kid in school.
我没有作弊，因为我是学校里最聪明的孩子。
So, who would I cheat from?
那么，我该欺骗谁呢？
And I didn't, you know, and I wasn't a fraud because you know, what 12-year-old could be a fraud?
我没有，你知道，我也不是骗子，因为你知道，哪个 12 岁的孩子可能是骗子？
It's ridiculous, impossible.
这很荒谬，不可能。
And it took me another over 20 years to realize that that was all a projection of how he felt about himself.
又过了 20 多年，我才意识到这只是他自我感觉的投射。
Betsy: He obviously had a lot of self-hatred which was like a black cloud in our household.
贝特西：他显然有很多自我憎恨，就像我们家里的乌云一样。
Like whole, like a a cloud…
像整体一样，像一片云……
Betsy: My father was somebody who opened his mouth and said things that most people would consider unsayable.
贝特西：我的父亲是一个张开嘴说出大多数人认为无法说的话的人。
Really, unsayable.
实在是，一言难尽。
He would just say it like that, no problem.
他就这么说，没问题。
Betsy: I mean, he told me I had no worth as a person.
贝特西：我的意思是，他告诉我我作为一个人没有价值。
That basically I was just a broodmare.
基本上我只是一匹母马。
I was a worthless piece of crap.
我本来就是一个一文不值的废物。
Betsy: I mean, I really loved my father.
贝特西：我是说，我真的很爱我的父亲。
I worshiped him, I adored him, I loved him, I idolized him.
我崇拜他，我崇拜他，我爱他，我崇拜他。
So, every single, nasty thing he said to me, I bought, I bought it all.
所以，他对我说的每一句话，我都买了，我都买了。
I believed it.
我相信了。
And I'm still trying to rid myself of some of these beliefs now at age 70.
现在我已经 70 岁了，仍在努力摆脱其中一些信念。
Betsy: I wonder if his own hatred for his father, he just assumed that I would hate him because I was, he was the father.
贝特西：我想知道他自己是否讨厌他的父亲，他只是认为我会恨他，因为我是，他是父亲。
I don't know, I have no idea.
我不知道，我不知道。
Maybe he hated me because I was the girl that looked like him.
也许他恨我，因为我是那个长得像他的女孩。
I really don't know.
我真的不知道。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Betsy: So, anything that made him happy was a happy thing for our household.
贝特西：所以，任何让他开心的事情对我们家来说都是一件幸福的事情。
That's why I feel happiness that he got pleasure from cross-dressing.
这就是为什么我为他从变装中获得乐趣而感到高兴。
Betsy: Because that was like, if you made a chart and there was a negative side and a positive side, there are so many negatives; And that cross-dressing he was happy.
贝特西：因为就像，如果你制作了一张图表，并且有消极的一面和积极的一面，那么就会有很多消极的一面；那个异装他很高兴。
He was happy.
他很高兴。
When I walked around yesterday, I looked around here and I could think, I could imagine, I could imagine all of them, you know, going through the grass in their high heels.
当我昨天四处走动时，我环顾四周，我可以思考，我可以想象，我可以想象他们所有人，你知道，穿着高跟鞋穿过草地。
You know, coming from the cabins and I could imagine them all so happy and I thought: "My father must have been so happy here."
你知道，从小屋里出来，我可以想象他们都很高兴，我想：“我父亲在这里一定很高兴。”
Betsy: He had found a group that accepted him with all of his quirks.
贝特西：他找到了一个能够接受他所有怪癖的团体。
Even the most outrageous quirk.
即使是最令人发指的怪癖。
he says that he bonded with people immediately.
他说他立刻就与人建立了联系。
My father wasn't like that; with other people.
我的父亲不是那样的人。与其他人。
He really wasn’t.
他真的不是。
He could be very cruel.
他可能非常残忍。
He was very, very cruel.
他非常非常残忍。
He was cruel to my mother.
他对我母亲很残忍。
He was cruel to me.
他对我很残忍。
He was cruel to a lot of his authors.
他对他的许多作者都很残忍。
He wasn't cruel at all to others, it really depended on their personality.
他对别人一点也不残忍，这完全取决于他们的性格。
I don't think he was ever cruel to his fellow transvestites.
我不认为他对他的异装癖同伴残忍过。
Ever.
曾经。
He loved them.
他爱他们。
And he bonded with them in a way that he bonded with nobody else.
他与他们之间的联系是他与其他人所没有的。
Betsy: I didn't feel love for my father.
贝特西：我对父亲没有感觉。
Until recently, and just recently, I'm almost 70.
直到最近，就在最近，我已经快70岁了。
But just recently I'm beginning to feel like...
但就在最近我开始感觉...
I remember the love I felt as a child.
我记得小时候感受到的爱。
And I can feel it again.
我又可以感觉到了。
But really, it took decades.
但实际上，这花了几十年的时间。
Diana: Then it was time for me to sort of imagine how would I get out into the world.
戴安娜：然后我就该想象一下我该如何走出这个世界了。
And one of the things that I wanted to do is get married, I even thought at the beginning that I would love to have children.
而我想做的一件事就是结婚，我什至一开始就想过我很想生孩子。
And much of that was realized.
其中大部分已经实现。
Diana: I was married with a man for a while I had very traditional ideas about…I think both of us did actually about how it would be.
戴安娜：我和一个男人结婚有一段时间了，我对……我认为我们俩实际上都想过会怎样。
He took me to meet his parents and they were lovely people and we had a wonderful time.
他带我去见他的父母，他们都是可爱的人，我们度过了一段美好的时光。
His mother was a Tupperware salesman and I got lots of Tupperware and it was wonderful.
他的母亲是一名特百惠推销员，我买了很多特百惠，非常棒。
Diana: So, for the first couple of years it really was just me, kind of learning how to be a homemaker, getting to know his mother, having that relationship with his mother.
戴安娜：所以，在最初的几年里，真的只有我，学习如何成为一名家庭主妇，了解他的母亲，与他的母亲建立这种关系。
just being domestic.
只是在国内。
I would have been very happy to be just a housewife but it was not to be that way So eventually we split.
如果我只是一名家庭主妇，我会很高兴，但事实并非如此，所以最终我们分手了。
And I had to find work.
我必须找到工作。
And that became a whole new career, and it was quite an exciting career.
这成为了一个全新的职业，这是一个非常令人兴奋的职业。
And had almost nothing to do with being transgender.
并且与变性几乎没有任何关系。
And had a lot to do with being a woman working in computers.
这与作为一名从事计算机工作的女性有很大关系。
Diana: When I got to Xerox the place was just beaming with excitement and energy and fun it was just outrageous.
戴安娜：当我到达施乐时，这里充满了兴奋、活力和乐趣，真是令人难以置信。
In a in a new agey way.
以一种新时代的方式。
I sort of went from being a secretary to being a research scientist.
我从一名秘书变成了一名研究科学家。
It was very funny.
这很有趣。
We began to develop this language called Small Talk That was a big thing in the day.
我们开始开发这种名为 Small Talk 的语言，这在当时是一件大事。
And it did have a large impact on a lot of the software that exists, to this day.
迄今为止，它确实对许多现有的软件产生了巨大的影响。
And here I was a woman in this research center that was mostly all men.
在这个几乎全是男性的研究中心里，我是一名女性。
And they let me play.
他们让我玩。
Diana: There was no problem, you know, it was just...
戴安娜：没问题，你知道，只是……
“Welcome to the to the clan!”
“欢迎来到部落！”
Diana: And still, it was hard for me to tell people who I am.
戴安娜：尽管如此，我还是很难告诉人们我是谁。
I think there is a piece of me that feels some regrets or kind of sadness.
我觉得我内心有一部分感到有些遗憾或悲伤。
Because it’s truly very much a part of who I am.
因为它确实是我的一部分。
Diana: My whole goal was to not be afraid.
戴安娜：我的全部目标就是不要害怕。
I didn't want to be afraid.
我不想害怕。
I wanted to be, just a human being, an alive human being having a fun, interesting, useful life.
我想成为，只是一个人，一个活着的人，过着有趣、有趣、有用的生活。
Diana: And then, Carol Shapiro walked into my life.
戴安娜：然后，卡罗尔·夏皮罗走进了我的生活。
She put her hand up on the couch and I put my hand on the back of the couch.
她把手放在沙发上，我把手放在沙发背上。
And the next thing we knew we were kissing.
接下来我们就知道我们正在接吻。
You have to get the idea that that was not a common thing .
你必须明白这不是一件常见的事情。
We were not…That was not our normal way of being.
我们不是……那不是我们正常的存在方式。
Our relationship even to this day is just, spectacular.
直到今天，我们的关系仍然非常美好。
And it has nothing to do with small Talk and has nothing to do with transgender…You know, Carol is actually very proud of me, in my transgender past.
而且它与small Talk无关，与跨性别无关……你知道，卡罗尔实际上为我的跨性别过去感到非常自豪。
She thinks that: "Wow, that's pretty incredible!"
她想：“哇，这太不可思议了！”
Gregory: Maria sold this property because it was just becoming too large to manage.
格雷戈里：玛丽亚卖掉了这处房产，因为它变得太大而难以管理。
I mean, again, it's 288 acres of land.
我的意思是，这块土地有 288 英亩。
There's uh, always something that needed to be done.
呃，总有一些事情需要做。
So, she downsized a little bit and, moved couple of miles away.
因此，她缩小了一些规模，并搬到了几英里之外。
to 188-acre property, which became known as “Casa Susanna”.
占地 188 英亩的土地，后来被称为“Casa Susanna”。
Gregory: Which was a totally different operation.
格雷戈里：这是一次完全不同的行动。
They didn't do cross-dressing shows, but it became like the Bed and Breakfast of the cross-dressing community.
他们没有做变装表演，但这就像变装社区的住宿加早餐一样。
Where people could come and stay and enjoy themselves for the time that they were here.
人们可以来这里停留并享受他们在这里的时光。
Gregory: That was another magical place and Susanna spent a lot of time of her life up there; and would go out regularly to the store or to parties…
格雷戈里：那是另一个神奇的地方，苏珊娜在那里度过了一生中的很多时间；那是一个神奇的地方。并且会定期去商店或参加聚会......
you know, she was her own individual and wasn't sheltered to the house and hiding undercover there, she was quite flamboyant!
要知道，她是一个人，没有被庇护在家里，而是躲在那里，相当的浮夸！
And she actually enjoyed the property a lot more than Tito did.
事实上，她比蒂托更喜欢这处房产。
Let me be clear about that: they were separate individuals.
让我澄清一下：他们是不同的个体。
Gregory: Tito was a person who, you know, worked for radio for years, had his own show, and hm, Susanna, got into the translation business at the U.N., so, she was also eventually able to hm support herself.
格雷戈里：蒂托是一个在电台工作多年的人，有自己的节目，嗯，苏珊娜，进入了联合国的翻译行业，所以，她最终也能够养活自己。
Gregory: Again, they were both separate and individual people.
格雷戈里：再说一次，他们都是独立的个体。
Although I think that Tito was taking hormones to grow breath to transform and live as Susanna full time.
虽然我认为蒂托正在服用激素来增长呼吸来转变并全职像苏珊娜一样生活。
Gregory: I did speak to her about that and I said: “Well, you know, suppose you became a woman, would you want the comfort of a man?” And she said No!
格雷戈里：我确实和她谈过这件事，我说：“好吧，你知道，假设你变成了女人，你会想要男人的安慰吗？”她说不！
Gregory: She was pretty adamant about her relationship with Maria, so, I guess that would make them a lesbian couple.
格雷戈里：她对与玛丽亚的关系非常坚定，所以，我想这会让他们成为一对女同性恋。
Gregory: It used to be the swimming hole here we used to come here almost every day.
格雷戈里：这里曾经是一个游泳洞，我们几乎每天都来这里。
My grandmother used to dam up so, we can get a big deep swimming pool here.
我祖母曾经筑坝，所以我们可以在这里建一个又大又深的游泳池。
And then every year in the fall the water will just wash everything away and we’ll have to put a new dam here every year.
然后每年秋天，水都会冲走一切，我们每年都必须在这里修建一座新水坝。
I can see some of the rocks that were still there from when we used to do that.
我可以看到我们以前这样做时仍然存在的一些岩石。
Gregory: What’s remarkable is that my family used to own that mountain.
格雷戈里：值得注意的是，我的家族曾经拥有那座山。
Gregory: Maria was up in the house in Mount Vernon because we had moved there.
格雷戈里：玛丽亚住在弗农山的房子里，因为我们搬到了那里。
And I was actually staying at her house on 103rd Street.
事实上我住在她位于 103 街的房子里。
So, my brother Richard called me and said that she had fallen down a flight of stairs and that she had, you know, cracked open her skull and was unconscious.
所以，我哥哥理查德打电话给我，说她从楼梯上摔下来，你知道，她的头骨裂开了，失去了知觉。
And he didn't know for how long she was lying there.
而他也不知道她在那里躺了多久。
And called an ambulance and brought her to the hospital.
并叫了救护车，将她送往医院。
She was seriously hurt.
她受了重伤。
She had to have 3 burn holes cut into her and to her skull to relieve the pressure from the hematoma that was growing under there and the bleeding, and had a very long convalescence after that.
她必须在她的身体和头骨上切出 3 个烧伤孔，以减轻颅骨下血肿和出血带来的压力，此后经历了很长的康复期。
And not only, did we have to go through that, helping her with her convalescence, but the hospital bills from that incident, were astronomical and put an extreme financial pressure on the family.
我们不仅要经历这些，帮助她康复，而且那次事件带来的医院费用也是天文数字，给这个家庭带来了极大的经济压力。
And especially on Tito.
尤其是关于铁托。
And, you know, he had to take care of his family and that's what he did.
而且，你知道，他必须照顾他的家人，这就是他所做的。
And, you know, that became his motivation in every waking minute.
而且，你知道，这成为他醒着的每一分钟的动力。
All of his energy was put into that so…
他所有的精力都投入到了这件事上，所以……
Gregory: So, they had to sell Casa Susanna.
格雷戈里：所以，他们不得不卖掉卡萨苏珊娜。
and that was the end of the property.
这就是财产的终结。
And then I would say in the 80s my grandmother was getting worse and worse and then started to go into a hoarding phase.
然后我想说，在 80 年代，我祖母的情况变得越来越糟，然后开始进入囤积阶段。
She had an 8 room Upper West Side apartment in the city; and there was barely a path to walk from the kitchen to the bedroom to the bathroom.
她在城里的上西区拥有一套 8 居室的公寓；从厨房到卧室再到浴室几乎没有一条路可以走。
So, Susanna
所以，苏珊娜
Gregory: got her own apartment on 42nd Street.
格雷戈里：在 42 街有自己的公寓。
And started living as Susanna full time.
并开始以苏珊娜的身份全职生活。
And she slowly but surely, created her identity and got a driver's license, and a Social Security card.
她慢慢地但坚定地创建了自己的身份并获得了驾驶执照和社会保障卡。
But also, during that time, Susanna had developed a brain tumor which was inoperable.
而且，在那段时间，苏珊娜患上了脑瘤，无法手术。
And eventually she was going to die from it.
最终她将死于此。
Gregory: So, Maria was a hoarder, Susanna had brain cancer.
格雷戈里：所以，玛丽亚是一个囤积者，苏珊娜患有脑癌。
And hm, their lives physically were separated.
嗯，他们的生活在物理上是分开的。
But they were always in communication with each other I would sometime overhear their conversations.
但他们总是互相交流，有时我会无意中听到他们的谈话。
And they were very endearing.
他们非常可爱。
And always ending with: "I love you; I miss you.
最后总是这样说：“我爱你；我想念你。
Lots of kisses and someday soon we'll be back together again'" which was incredibly sweet I thought.
很多吻，很快有一天我们会再次聚在一起’”我想这真是太甜蜜了。
Gregory: But they couldn’t.
格雷戈里：但他们不能。
In fact, when Marie died Susanna was in such a state that he couldn’t move from that apartment.
事实上，当玛丽去世时，苏珊娜处于一种无法从那间公寓搬走的状态。
She passed the week after Maria died.
玛丽亚去世后她度过了一周。
We were told she was laying on the bed, fully dressed as Susanna
我们被告知她躺在床上，打扮得像苏珊娜
Katherine: And I loved your grandmother, Maria.
凯瑟琳：我爱你的祖母，玛丽亚。
Gregory: She was an incredible woman.
格雷戈里：她是一位不可思议的女人。
She was such a strong woman, and I know she put you all to work immediately when you got here.
她是一位坚强的女性，我知道你们一到这里，她就立即让你们投入工作。
Katherine: There were some crossdressers who just wanted to get into the washing up and the scrubbing the floor.
凯瑟琳：有些变装者只是想从事洗碗和擦地板的工作。
That wasn't me.
那不是我。
I was the vertue in the bar stool.
我是酒吧凳子上的美人。
Gregory: I mean, that building was fantastic.
格雷戈里：我的意思是，那座建筑太棒了。
There was so many, you know, incredibly talented people that came here.
你知道，有很多非常有才华的人来到这里。
Katherine: For a long time; well, for some time anyway, it was the sort of belief that you really didn't find that community unless you were intelligent and educated and inquiring and all these things.
凯瑟琳：很长一段时间；好吧，无论如何，有一段时间，人们相信，除非你聪明、受过教育、善于探究等等，否则你真的找不到那个社区。
It wasn't that at all, actually, it was just communication.
其实根本不是这样，只是沟通而已。
You weren't allowed to put an ad in the paper saying: "Crossdresser interested in resort at the Catskills".
你不被允许在报纸上登广告说：“变装者对卡茨基尔山的度假村感兴趣”。
You just couldn't do that.
你就是不能那样做。
So, it all have to be word of mouth and the word of mouth people tended to be, university graduates and the professionals.
因此，这一切都必须是口碑传播，而人们往往是大学毕业生和专业人士的口碑传播。
So yes, it was a select group that used to come here, and it was a very interesting group.
所以，是的，这是一个经过挑选的团体，曾经来到这里，而且是一个非常有趣的团体。
Diana: So how old were you at that time?
戴安娜：那你当时几岁？
Gregory: I was anywhere from 5.
Gregory：我从 5 岁起就到了。
I was born in 1951 so...
我出生于1951年，所以...
Gregory: I was just a kid.
格雷戈里：我只是个孩子。
I know.
我知道。
We couldn't come and see the show so, we’d go peak through the window until we got caught.
我们不能来看演出，所以我们会从窗户爬到山顶，直到被抓住。
Katherine: Well, if you're born in the 1950s, I'm well ahead of you because I'm 86.
凯瑟琳：嗯，如果你出生在 20 世纪 50 年代，我就远远领先你了，因为我已经 86 岁了。
Gregory: Oh, God bless you.
格雷戈里：哦，上帝保佑你。
Look at that.
看看那个。
I want to tell you about something because, you know, it's long been a hm…A dream or even a quest of mine, because I actually am the holder of Susanna, Marias and Yolanda's ashes.
我想告诉你一些事情，因为，你知道，这一直是我的一个梦想，甚至是一个追求，因为我实际上是苏珊娜、玛丽亚斯和尤兰达骨灰的持有者。
Gregory: And I have always wanted to bring them here and hm, excuse me.And pass them out.
格雷戈里：我一直想把它们带到这里，嗯，对不起。然后把它们分发出去。
Because I think that this is the place for them to be,
因为我认为这就是他们该去的地方
Diana: Seems like the perfect place, the perfect place.
戴安娜：看起来是一个完美的地方，一个完美的地方。
Gregory: I would be honored, if you two would help me do that.
格雷戈里：如果你们两个能帮助我做到这一点，我将非常荣幸。
Diana: It would be my great honor.
戴安娜：这将是我莫大的荣幸。
my great honor.
我非常荣幸。
So how do we go about that?
那么我们该怎么做呢？
Gregory: Yeah, we were going to I was going to do it over by that tree over there.
格雷戈里：是的，我们本来打算在那边的那棵树旁重新做一次。
Because it has some color and hm, I just think that they should be here.
因为它有一些颜色，嗯，我只是觉得它们应该在这里。
Casa Susanna was a refuge for transgender women and cross-dressing men in the 1950s-60s.
Casa Susanna 是 20 世纪 50 年代至 60 年代跨性别女性和异装男性的避难所。
Lost photographs bring a secret resort to life.
丢失的照片让秘密度假村重现生机。
An amazing flea market find reveals the scene at Casa Susana—a safe haven for transgender women and crossdressing men.
一次惊人的跳蚤市场发现揭示了卡萨苏珊娜的场景——跨性别女性和异装男性的安全港。
Transvestia's archives provide a window onto a hidden world.
Transvestia 的档案提供了一扇通往隐秘世界的窗口。
What exactly is Drag?
拖拽到底是什么？
How did it find its way into the limelight?
它是如何成为众人瞩目的焦点的？
Christine Jorgensen was one of the first people to successfully undergo gender affirmation surgery.
克里斯汀·乔根森是第一批成功接受性别确认手术的人之一。
The diary of a magical night at Casa Susanna.
苏珊娜之家神奇之夜的日记。
Director and co-producer of the ground breaking Netflix Documentary DISCLOSURE Sam Feder and director of the Transgender Media Lab and Transgender Media Portal Laura Horak speak with activist, author and media strategist Raquel Willis about the history and effects of transgender representation in media.
突破性 Netflix 纪录片的导演兼联合制片人萨姆·费德 (Sam Feder) 以及跨性别媒体实验室和跨性别媒体门户网站的主任劳拉·霍拉克 (Laura Horak) 与活动家、作家和媒体策略师拉克尔·威利斯 (Raquel Willis) 谈论媒体中跨性别代表性的历史和影响。