维京人、拉格纳、狂战士、英灵殿与维京时代的战士

The Viking long ships could average 70 to 120 miles a day.

维京长船平均每天可行驶 70 至 120 英里。

00:00 They could hit a place, raid it, drag off whoever they wanted, and get away before you could get your army there.

他们可以袭击一个地方，袭击它，拖走他们想要的任何人，然后在你到达你的军队之前逃跑。

That’s just absolutely terrifying.

这真是太可怕了。

What do you think it felt like for Alcuin and the monks to see the Viking ships on the horizon?

你认为阿尔昆和僧侣们看到地平线上的维京船只有什么感觉？

Honestly, I think it’s the end of the world, and I don’t think they were wrong to think that.

老实说，我认为这是世界末日，而且我认为他们的想法没有错。

00:21 The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle says the night before Lindisfarne, the monks saw sheets of lightning in the sky in the shape of dragons, and this was obviously meant to foreshadow the dragon ships coming up.

《盎格鲁撒克逊编年史》记载，在林迪斯法恩的前一天晚上，僧侣们看到天空中出现了一条条龙形闪电，这显然是预示着龙船即将来临。

But if you were brave, then you got taken to the House of the Dead, which was Valhalla.

但如果你足够勇敢，那么你就会被带到死亡之屋，也就是瓦尔哈拉殿堂。

Every day you would fight, and whatever wounds you got would be magically healed that night, and then the next morning, you’d get up and do it again, so you’re essentially practicing for Ragnarok, the final battle.

每天你都会战斗，无论你受到什么伤害，当晚都会神奇地痊愈，然后第二天早上，你会起床再做一次，所以你本质上是在为《诸神黄昏》——最后一战进行练习。

You know, there’s this poem by Tennyson, Ulysses, my favorite poem.

你知道，丁尼生的这首诗《尤利西斯》是我最喜欢的诗。

I think it captures the Viking spirit.

我认为它抓住了维京人的精神。

01:01 The last line of it is to strive, “To seek, to find, and not to yield.” I think that’s very much like the Viking, you know, my purpose holds, to sail beyond the baths of all the Western stars until I die.

最后一句是努力：“去寻求，去发现，而不是屈服。”我认为这很像维京人，你知道，我的目标是，航行到所有西方星星的浴场之外，直到我死去。

We may die, but I’m gonna do this, I’m not gonna yield.

我们可能会死，但我会这么做，我不会屈服。

The following is a conversation with Lars Brownworth, a historian and author of many excellent history books, including The Sea Wolves: A History of the Vikings and The Normans: From Raiders to Kings.

以下是与历史学家拉斯·布朗沃斯 (Lars Brownworth) 的对话，他是一位历史学家，也是许多优秀历史书籍的作者，其中包括《海狼：维京人的历史》和《诺曼人：从袭击者到国王》。

01:17 He’s also the host of two history podcast series.

他还是两个历史播客系列的主持人。

The first, called 12 Byzantine Rulers: The History of the Byzantine Empire, is one of the first, if not the first ever, history podcasts launched over 20 years ago in June 2005.

第一个播客名为《12 位拜占庭统治者：拜占庭帝国的历史》，是 20 多年前（2005 年 6 月）推出的第一批（如果不是有史以来第一批）历史播客之一。

His second series, Norman Centuries, explores the remarkable rise of the Normans from Viking raiders to the rulers of kingdoms stretching from England to Sicily.

他的第二个系列《诺曼世纪》探讨了诺曼人从维京袭击者到从英格兰到西西里岛的王国统治者的非凡崛起。

02:03 In this conversation, we focus primarily on the Vikings, the seafaring Norse warriors and explorers who, over a period of just 300 years, reshaped the medieval world and the trajectory of Western civilization as we know it.

在本次对话中，我们主要关注维京人、北欧航海战士和探险家，他们在短短 300 年的时间里重塑了中世纪世界和我们所知的西方文明的轨迹。

This is a Lex Fridman Podcast.

这是莱克斯·弗里德曼播客。

To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on.

为了支持它，请在描述中查看我们的赞助商，您还可以在其中找到联系我、提出问题、提供反馈等的链接。

And now, dear friends, here’s Lars Brownworth.

现在，亲爱的朋友们，这是拉斯·布朗沃斯。

02:37 Your writing and podcasts take us from the Vikings to the Normans to Crusades, to the collapse of the East Roman Empire, also known as the Byzantine Empire.

您的写作和播客带我们从维京人到诺曼人到十字军东征，再到东罗马帝国（也称为拜占庭帝国）的崩溃。

There’s a thread, I think, that connects the Vikings through all of it, so let’s start at the beginning.

我认为，有一条线索将维京人贯穿其中，所以让我们从头开始。

Let’s start with the Vikings.

让我们从维京人开始。

02:58 So the age of the Vikings was intense and violent, as you write about, often dated from 793 AD to 1066 AD.

因此，正如您所写，维京人的时代是激烈而暴力的，通常可以追溯到公元 793 年至公元 1066 年。

It lasted less than three centuries.

它持续了不到三个世纪。

So the start is often dated to June 8th, 793.

所以开始日期通常是 793 年 6 月 8 日。

What happened on June 8th, 793?

793年6月8日发生了什么？

In June of 793, a group of Vikings, probably originating from Norway, arrived at the Holy Island of Lindisfarne, which was a monastic community, and they essentially slaughtered everyone, burned a couple of buildings, and grabbed everything that had any value and left.

793年6月，一群可能来自挪威的维京人到达了林迪斯法恩圣岛，这是一个修道院社区，他们基本上屠杀了所有人，烧毁了几座建筑物，并抢走了所有剩下的有价值的东西。

03:23 And that was the first Viking raid that came in force.

这是第一次维京人的袭击。

And I do think Lindisfarne is a good beginning date because the terror that it brought really signified what was to come for the next two to three centuries.

我确实认为林迪斯法恩是一个很好的开始，因为它带来的恐怖确实预示着接下来两到三个世纪将要发生的事情。

So the word of it has spread.

于是这句话就传开了。

03:55 Like there’s a- there’s a bunch of accounts, like the monk Alcuin wrote about this event in a letter to King Ethelred of Northumbria, quote, “It is nearly 350 years that we and our fathers have inhabited this most lovely land, and never before has such terror appeared in Britain as we have now suffered from a pagan race, nor was it thought that such an inroad from the sea could be made.” What made this race so psychologically devastating to this monk and to the many other monks on the island and then to all of Britain?

就像有——有一堆记载，就像僧侣阿尔昆在写给诺森布里亚国王埃塞尔雷德的一封信中关于这一事件的描述，引用说，“我们和我们的祖先在这片最可爱的土地上居住了近 350 年，英国从未出现过像我们现在遭受异教种族那样的恐怖，也没有想到会从海上发起如此大的入侵。”是什么让这场比赛对这位僧侣和岛上的许多其他僧侣乃至整个英国造成如此大的心理打击？

That’s a great quote.

这是一个很好的引言。

04:36 Alcuin was not just a regular scholar, he was Charlemagne’s favorite scholar and he’s largely responsible, as much as one person can be, for the Carolingian Renaissance that had done so much to elevate the early medieval world.

阿尔昆不仅仅是一位普通的学者，他还是查理曼大帝最喜欢的学者，他对加洛林文艺复兴的发展负有最大的责任，这场文艺复兴为提升中世纪早期世界做出了巨大的贡献。

In fact, the spaces we have, the punctuation we have, spaces between words are likely a result of Alcuin’s work.

事实上，我们的空格、标点符号、单词之间的空格很可能是阿尔昆工作的结果。

He was an extremely literate man, and you can hear the terror creeping into that.

他是一个非常有文化的人，你可以听出其中潜藏着的恐惧。

05:06 And part of that has to do with monastic communities, the Church and the- what they thought a monastic community was.

其中一部分与修道院社区、教会和他们所认为的修道院社区有关。

So the Church was viewed as a sacred place.

因此，教堂被视为神圣的地方。

Everyone in Europe, everyone in quotes, is nominally Christian, and the Church is an area of safety.

欧洲的每个人，每个在引号中的人，名义上都是基督徒，而教会是一个安全的地方。

It’s a literal ark from the troubles of the world that you can flee to.

这是一艘名副其实的方舟，你可以逃离这个世界的烦恼。

I believe there are even rules in England, for example, that if you had killed someone, you could flee to a church and the civil authorities were not allowed to enter for up to 40 days.

我相信英国甚至还有规定，例如，如果你杀了人，你可以逃到教堂，民政当局最多 40 天不允许进入。

So you could have sanctuary there.

所以你可以在那里拥有庇护所。

And to violate this would’ve been the worst possible offense you could have given, which is why, you know, Thomas Becket’s murder is so, so horrible in England.

违反这一点将是你可能犯下的最严重的罪行，这就是为什么托马斯·贝克特的谋杀案在英格兰是如此、如此可怕。

05:50 And the monks had dedicated themselves to a life of studying the Bible, to copying scriptures to prayer, to removing themselves literally from the temptations of the world.

僧侣们一生致力于研究圣经，抄写经文祈祷，真正摆脱世界的诱惑。

And so they would seek monasteries that were remote, and the most remote locations you could find were islands in the North Atlantic, because it’s just so difficult to get there….

因此，他们会寻找偏远的修道院，而你能找到的最偏远的地方是北大西洋的岛屿，因为到达那里非常困难……。

So the ocean was considered a place of safety.

因此海洋被认为是一个安全的地方。

Not sailing on the ocean, but these- these islands were- were literal havens of peace and security and closeness to God.

不是在海洋上航行，但这些——这些岛屿——是名副其实的和平、安全和亲近上帝的避风港。

And so the fact that the Vikings hit this place of all places you could hit was the worst, the most terrifying kind of offense against medieval sensibilities.

因此，维京人袭击这个地方的事实是对中世纪情感最严重、最可怕的冒犯。

So there’s a kind of line that you understand you don’t cross.

所以有一条线你知道你不能跨越。

06:33 Like, everybody agrees.

就像，每个人都同意。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

It’s the kind of thing that there’s a social contract that most societies, most civilizations sign.

这是大多数社会、大多数文明都签署的社会契约。

06:38 There’s a line that we don’t cross.

有一条线我们不能跨越。

Let the scholars do their scholarly work.

让学者们做他们的学术工作。

That’s one line.

这是一行。

The other line is more kind of from a military perspective, from a mobility perspective, you just assume the sea is not a place from which a threat could come-

另一条路线更多的是从军事角度来看，从机动性角度来看，你只是假设海洋不是一个可能出现威胁的地方——

Yeah, that’s exactly right.

是的，完全正确。

…

……

07:00 especially the north.

尤其是北方。

So your conception of the world is shattered by, one, the brutality that can come, two, that the sea can bring a threat, and three, that you don’t give a damn about any of the lines that we as a society, as a Christian society, have established.

因此，你对世界的看法被以下因素所打破：第一，可能出现的残酷行为；第二，海洋可能带来的威胁；第三，你根本不关心我们作为一个社会、作为一个基督教社会所建立的任何界限。

That’s exactly right.

完全正确。

07:20 I mean, even Alcuin, I think he writes a little later on that the dead were left as dung in the streets.

我的意思是，即使是阿尔昆，我想他稍后也写道，死者被当作粪便留在街上。

So he’s describing dead monks as literal dung in the streets.

因此，他将死去的僧侣描述为街上的粪便。

And, you know, who would do this to men of God?

而且，你知道，谁会对属神的人做这样的事呢？

Inhuman monsters.

没有人性的怪物。

So who were they, the Vikings, coming from the north?

那么来自北方的维京人是谁呢？

07:34 How did they think of the violence that they were doing?

他们如何看待自己的暴力行为？

Now, that’s a very good question because…

现在，这是一个非常好的问题，因为……

07:42 and it brings up a central problem of looking at the Vikings, which is the story is almost always told from somebody else’s perspective, largely from the pens of those they’re attacking.

它提出了看待维京人的一个核心问题，即故事几乎总是从别人的角度讲述，大部分是从他们攻击的人的笔下讲述的。

So they’re not gonna come across well.

所以他们不会有好的印象。

They’re often portrayed as demonic and inhuman.

他们经常被描绘成恶魔和不人道的人。

The Vikings themselves though, as much as we can piece together from archeology, from the stories they wrote later—but that was another problem there, the written alphabet, the runes.

不过，我们可以从考古学和他们后来写的故事中拼凑出维京人本身，但那是另一个问题，即书面字母和符文。

It was mostly used for spells, name your sword, things like that, curse someone, but it wasn’t really useful for writing long poetry or literature.

它主要用于咒语，命名你的剑，诸如此类的事情，诅咒某人，但它对于写长诗或文学并不是很有用。

08:22 So the only Norse literature we have comes at the end of the age when they had adopted the Latin alphabet.

因此，我们所拥有的唯一的北欧文学是在他们采用拉丁字母的时代末期出现的。

So it’s…

所以这是……

you can almost never see the Vikings in their own words as they saw themselves.

你几乎永远无法用维京人自己的语言来看待他们自己。

But we can piece certain things together.

但我们可以将某些事情拼凑在一起。

Most importantly, Viking was not their day job.

最重要的是，维京海盗并不是他们的日常工作。

They were mostly merchants and farmers, mostly farmers who lived in little bays called Viks in Old Norse, which is probably where we get the word Viking from.

他们大多是商人和农民，其中大部分是住在古挪威语中称为“Viks”的小海湾的农民，这可能就是我们“维京人”一词的由来。

One other note about how hard it is to tease apart what’s happening here is the English and the Frankish and the Irish writers all call them Danes, no matter where they came from.

关于区分这里发生的事情有多么困难的另一件事是，英国、法兰克和爱尔兰作家都称他们为丹麦人，无论他们来自哪里。

09:08 They didn’t stop to ask, “Now, excuse me, are you from Norway, or are you from…” So they’re all called Danes or Pagans, heathen, or Northmen.

他们没有停下来问：“现在，对不起，你是来自挪威，还是来自……”所以他们都被称为丹麦人或异教徒，异教徒或北方人。

So this is not very helpful in figuring out where they came from.

所以这对于弄清楚它们来自哪里并没有多大帮助。

09:22 The language was interchangeable.

语言是可以互换的。

You know, Old Norse was spoken in all three of those Scandinavian countries.

您知道，这三个斯堪的纳维亚国家都使用古挪威语。

But living in the north, so far up near the Arctic Circle, is…

但生活在北方，距离北极圈很远，是……

that’s at the very limit of where technology of the time could allow humans to survive.

这是当时技术允许人类生存的极限。

And that kinda harsh climate bred, I think, very hard people.

我认为，那种恶劣的气候孕育了非常坚强的人。

Mercy was not a quality they seemed to favor or value.

他们似乎不喜欢或看重怜悯的品质。

There’s a very famous story of a Swedish Viking putting a sword in the crib of his newborn son, and saying, “May you have nothing in this life but what you can gain with this.” I mean, I can’t imagine doing that.

有一个非常著名的故事，瑞典维京人将一把剑放在他刚出生的儿子的婴儿床上，并说：“愿你此生一无所有，但你能从中获得什么。”我的意思是，我无法想象这样做。

You know, to any of my children, you know, putting a gun in the crib, or-

你知道，对我的任何一个孩子来说，把枪放在婴儿床里，或者——

10:05 …

……

you know, I’d be carted away.

你知道，我会被带走。

But the…

但是……

I think that kind of underscores the kind of violent life that was…

我认为这强调了那种暴力生活……

you could expect as a Viking.

作为一名维京人，你可以期待。

I mean, strength was valued more than anything else.

我的意思是，力量比什么都重要。

So the understanding of the world is harsh, and that strength is the way you must face that world.

所以对世界的认识是严酷的，而那种力量就是你必须面对那个世界的方式。

10:17 So when you have those people, and especially the ones that self-select to get on a boat, to face the ocean with all the uncertainty, that results in the kind of brutality that we got to see.

因此，当这些人，尤其是那些自我选择上船的人，面对充满不确定性的海洋时，就会导致我们看到的那种暴行。

I think so.

我想是的。

10:35 I mean, the way they would build their ships, they were clinker built, so they were overlaid, like planks overlaying.

我的意思是，他们建造船只的方式是用熟料建造的，所以它们是重叠的，就像木板重叠一样。

So they were undecked as well.

所以他们也没有装饰。

And so they’d have tents.

所以他们会有帐篷。

So can you imagine crossing the Atlantic, the northern Atlantic, you know, with these huge waves splashing over with an inch of oak between you and the ocean?

那么你能想象穿越大西洋，北大西洋，巨浪拍打着你和海洋之间一英寸的橡树吗？

I mean, the amount of bravery that must have taken to undergo is astounding.

我的意思是，必须承受的勇气是惊人的。

Plus they didn’t have a compass.

另外他们没有指南针。

They navigated by, “Where’s the sun?

他们导航道：“太阳在哪里？

Where are the stars?

星星在哪里？

What…

什么……

are there birds in the sky?

天上有鸟吗？

Do I see a different color of water?

我看到的水有不同颜色吗？

Do I see leaves floating?” I mean, it’s terrible.

我看到叶子在飘动吗？”我的意思是，这太糟糕了。

If you’re traveling 2,000 miles, that’s not great.

如果您要行驶 2,000 英里，那就不太好了。

11:15 So it’s kind of an intrepidness to them that I think is part of the reason why they’re so fascinating to us in our sanitized, more or less sanitized world.

因此，我认为这对他们来说是一种无畏的精神，这也是他们在我们这个净化过的、或多或少净化过的世界中如此令人着迷的部分原因。

That this incredible courage to do this, and some horror at what they did on the other end when they arrived.

这样做的勇气令人难以置信，而当他们到达时，他们对另一端所做的事情感到有些恐惧。

But, you know, we’ll talk a little bit more about their religion, but they do not view the Christian God in particularly flattering terms.

但是，你知道，我们会更多地谈论他们的宗教，但他们并不以特别奉承的方式看待基督教的上帝。

I mean, to them, he’s a weak God who won’t protect his adherents, and they can just come in and plunder as they…

我的意思是，对他们来说，他是一个软弱的神，不会保护他的追随者，他们可以进来掠夺，因为他们……

I mean, they’ll…

我的意思是，他们会……

One Viking famously says, “On land, I’m a Christian.

一位维京人有句名言：“在陆地上，我是一名基督徒。

When I’m on the sea, I worship Thor.” It was very much the kind of pragmatic take that the Vikings had.

当我在海上时，我崇拜雷神。”这就是维京人的务实态度。

Yeah.

是的。

12:01 There are gods, and they have many, but Odin and Thor are pretty hardcore gods.

神是有的，而且有很多，但奥丁和托尔是相当顽固的神。

So everything, just their whole philosophy on life is pretty hardcore.

所以一切，只是他们的整个人生哲学都是相当核心的。

Probably some of the toughest humans to have ever lived.

可能是有史以来最坚强的人类之一。

I think so.

我想是的。

12:15 Yeah.

是的。

I mean, their gods are horrifying.

我的意思是，他们的神太可怕了。

They’re polytheistic.

他们是多神论者。

There was no universally accepted head god.

没有普遍接受的主神。

I think Marvel has also led people astray in this.

我认为漫威在这方面也把人们引入了歧途。

Well, we’ll talk more about religion, but since you mentioned the boats, what do we understand about the technology that they were using?

好吧，我们会更多地谈论宗教，但是既然你提到了这些船，我们对他们所使用的技术有何了解？

12:29 Can you just speak a little bit more to this one-inch-of-oak idea?

您能对这个一英寸橡木的想法多说一点吗？

So, these were these longships that were also able to travel on rivers.

所以，这些长船也能够在河流上航行。

So they’re not…

所以他们不是……

Like, what is structurally, do we know about the boats that allowed them to be so flexible in terms of where they can travel?

比如，从结构上讲，我们是否了解让它们能够如此灵活地行驶的船只？

Yeah.

是的。

13:01 I mean, and this was the Vikings’ great secret, and I think it’s underappreciated.

我的意思是，这是维京人的伟大秘密，但我认为它被低估了。

They built different types of ships, obviously for different purposes, but the thing that blows my mind is that they built these ships that could cross an ocean, cross the Atlantic Ocean, and at the same time, when they had a draft of less than two feet, so they could sail up rivers that were two feet deep.

他们建造了不同类型的船只，显然是为了不同的目的，但让我震惊的是，他们建造的这些船只可以穿越海洋，穿越大西洋，同时，当它们的吃水深度小于两英尺时，它们可以在两英尺深的河流上航行。

And if they came to an, you know, a block or something, 20 men could pick up the ship and port it around.

如果他们来到一个，你知道的，一个街区或者其他什么地方，20 个人就可以把船抬起来并在附近移动。

They were incredibly portable and their speed, the speed was the most frightening thing about the Vikings.

他们的便携性令人难以置信，而且他们的速度，速度是维京人最可怕的事情。

So the…

所以……

13:38 These are the same kind of ship that they sailed the ocean on.

这些与他们在海洋上航行的船是同一种船。

Yeah.

是的。

13:41 I mean, it’s insane.

我的意思是，这太疯狂了。

So they’re pretty sufficiently robust to handle the ocean and sufficiently mobile to travel on rivers and do so really fast, so- …

所以它们足够坚固，可以在海洋中行驶，也有足够的机动性，可以在河流上行驶，而且速度非常快，所以……

13:44 you mentioned speed.

你提到了速度。

That seems to be, from a military perspective, the great advantage of the Vikings- …

从军事角度来看，这似乎是维京人的巨大优势——……

because they can move much faster than the land armies can.

因为他们的行动速度比陆军快得多。

So, and not just the element of surprise, which they often had, but the element of speed was the thing that gave them such an extreme advantage against the British armies.

因此，不仅是他们经常拥有的出其不意的因素，而且速度的因素也使他们在对抗英国军队时拥有如此巨大的优势。

That was the big one.

那是一件大事。

14:17 So, an English army, if it had access to a good Roman road that was well maintained, which frankly there weren’t tons of them, but they could average something like 10 to 15 miles per day- …

所以，一支英国军队，如果可以使用一条维护良好的罗马道路，坦率地说，这条道路的数量并不多，但他们平均每天可以行驶 10 到 15 英里——……

on a good day, if they didn’t have a large baggage train to slow them down.

天气好的时候，如果他们没有大型行李列车来减慢他们的速度的话。

If you had a cavalry unit that didn’t have to travel with the army, they could average about 20 miles a day.

如果你有一支不必随军队出行的骑兵部队，他们平均每天可以行驶约 20 英里。

The Viking long ships could average 70 to 120 miles a day.

维京长船平均每天可行驶 70 至 120 英里。

So, they’re just moving in super fast motion.

所以，他们只是以超快的速度移动。

They could hit a place, raid it, drag off whoever they wanted, and get away before you could get your army there.

他们可以袭击一个地方，袭击它，拖走他们想要的任何人，然后在你到达你的军队之前逃跑。

That’s just absolutely terrifying.

这真是太可怕了。

What do you think it felt like for Alcuin and the monks to see the Viking ships on the horizon?

你认为阿尔昆和僧侣们看到地平线上的维京船只有什么感觉？

14:56 Do you ever think about trying to put yourself in the mind of those folks and imagining…

你有没有想过尝试将自己置于那些人的心中并想象……

In that time, you don’t have a full map of the world, right?

那时，你没有完整的世界地图，对吗？

And the oceans are not mapped, and you have a hazy conception of the world.

海洋也没有被绘制出来，你对世界的概念也很模糊。

And so out of the darkness from the ocean where you thought nothing can come, comes this terrifying, this brutal force.

因此，从你以为什么都不会出现的黑暗海洋中，出现了这种可怕、残酷的力量。

What do you think that felt like?

你觉得那感觉怎么样？

Honestly, I think it’s the end of the world, and I don’t think that’s…

老实说，我认为这是世界末日，而且我不认为那是……

15:30 I don’t think they were wrong to think that.

我认为他们的想法并没有错。

The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle says the night before Lindisfarne, the monks saw sheets of lightning in the sky in the shape of dragons.

《盎格鲁-撒克逊编年史》称，在林迪斯法恩的前一天晚上，僧侣们看到天空中出现了龙形闪电。

And this obviously meant to, you know, foreshadow the dragon ships coming up.

这显然意味着，你知道，预示着龙船即将到来。

I can’t imagine the horror.

我无法想象那种恐怖。

It would shake my faith, I’m sure, to have these giant men jumping out of their ships with swords raised.

我确信，让这些巨人举起剑从船上跳出来，会动摇我的信念。

And you’re…

而你是……

What do you have?

你有什么？

Your cross?

你的十字架？

Were the Vikings aware of the fear that they had caused?

维京人是否意识到他们造成的恐惧？

16:04 So, did they use fear as a kind of weapon, or was this just a side consequence of their actions, or did they understand and use it?

那么，他们是否使用恐惧作为一种武器，或者这只是他们行为的副作用，或者他们理解并使用它？

Like the Mongols, Genghis Khan, the Mongols used the fear and the terror on purpose- …

就像蒙古人成吉思汗一样，蒙古人有目的地利用恐惧和恐怖——……

to increase the chance that they wouldn’t have to avoid fights, basically.

基本上是为了增加他们不必避免打架的机会。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

16:29 The Vikings absolutely used terror.

维京人绝对使用恐怖。

It was a main weapon in their arsenal.

这是他们武器库中的主要武器。

They would attack specifically on high holy days like Easter, Christmas, because they knew there’d be higher value targets there with richer clothing, richer offerings.

他们会专门在复活节、圣诞节等重要圣日发动攻击，因为他们知道那里会有更高价值的目标，他们有更丰富的衣服、更丰富的祭品。

There’d be a lot of money available.

会有很多钱可用。

So they were rather sophisticated, which I think is something also that they don’t get much credit for.

所以他们相当复杂，我认为这也是他们没有得到太多赞誉的地方。

It’s like they were just dumb brutes attacking and just destroying.

就好像他们只是愚蠢的野蛮人攻击和破坏。

But they were…

但他们是……

It was very sophisticated.

这是非常复杂的。

They would show up.

他们会出现的。

That’s what I mean when I say Viking wasn’t their day jobs.

这就是我说维京人不是他们的日常工作的意思。

They would be traders in say an English port, kind of looking around.

他们可能是英国港口的商人，四处张望。

17:08 They’d get everyone’s schedule, then they would sail away and come back as Vikings, and they knew exactly where to go.

他们会得到每个人的日程安排，然后他们会扬帆远航，然后以维京人的身份回来，而且他们确切地知道要去哪里。

They knew where all the money was held.

他们知道所有的钱都放在哪里。

They knew where all the, you know, the churches were, when to attack.

他们知道所有教堂在哪里，什么时候进攻。

They knew the entire Christian calendar.

他们知道整个基督教历法。

They knew when someone’s baptism was, when someone’s confirmation.

他们知道某人什么时候受洗、什么时候接受坚振。

I mean, they were aware of all of this.

我的意思是，他们知道这一切。

And they would…

他们会……

They would definitely attack to increase terror.

他们肯定会发动袭击，以增加恐怖。

One of the signs of the intelligence of the Vikings is that the Viking Age is so short.

维京人智慧的标志之一就是维京时代如此短暂。

17:32 So what happens is these explorers and these rough men who do the raids, they very quickly are good at conquering and then start state building, or conquering and then establishing trade routes and stop being the quote, unquote, “Vikings.” So basically, they just…

所以发生的事情是，这些探险家和这些进行袭击的粗野的人，他们很快就擅长征服，然后开始国家建设，或者征服，然后建立贸易路线，不再是引用的、不引用的“维京人”。所以基本上，他们只是……

They conquer, and then they start doing the usual build the institutions, start a state, and now they’re normal kind of nation, civilization kind of thing.

他们征服了，然后开始做通常的事情，建立机构，建立国家，现在他们是正常的国家，文明之类的事情。

So this kind of force that is the conquering, raid, violent, intense explorers, it’s like a short-lasting thing, a couple of generations at most.

所以这种征服、掠夺、暴力、激烈的探索者的力量，它就像是一个短暂的东西，最多几代人。

Yeah, that’s right.

是的，没错。

18:25 I mean, the Vikings were ultimately a pragmatic people who, if it worked, they would keep it, which is frustrating because they disappear so quickly because of that.

我的意思是，维京人最终是一个务实的民族，如果它有效，他们就会保留它，这令人沮丧，因为他们因此消失得如此之快。

With very little trace in the records-

记录中几乎没有任何痕迹——

With very little trace.

痕迹极少。

18:40 That’s right.

这是正确的。

…

……

18:41 with very little writing.

写作很少。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

No time for writing it down.

没时间写下来。

No.

不。

18:46 Yes.

是的。

Not doing that.

不这样做。

Yeah.

是的。

18:48 Why were monasteries such good targets for these early raids?

为什么修道院是这些早期袭击的好目标？

This is where I imagine myself as a Viking and one of my ancestors perhaps.

在这里，我想象自己是一个维京人，也许也是我的祖先之一。

18:56 And sailing in…

并航行在...

I mean, they must have thought they had won the lottery.

我的意思是，他们一定以为自己中了彩票。

You got this rich, these rich buildings, rich gold everywhere.

你变得如此富有，这些富有的建筑，到处都有丰富的黄金。

Decorated books, jewels, all guarded by old men who don’t know how to fight.

装饰的书籍、珠宝，全由不会打仗的老人看守。

You just take it.

你就拿着吧。

I mean, we should make clear that the monasteries had…

我的意思是，我们应该明确的是，修道院有……

19:17 They were used as almost like storage for gold.

它们几乎被用来储存黄金。

Yeah.

是的。

19:24 And this goes all the way back to, you know, the Roman Empire where, you know, think of, for example, the Emperor Augustus.

这可以追溯到罗马帝国，在那里，你知道，例如，奥古斯都皇帝。

When he was writing his will, he put it in the Temple of the Vestal Virgins as well as Mark Antony and Cleopatra.

当他写下遗嘱时，他将其放入维斯塔贞女神庙以及马克·安东尼和克利奥帕特拉神庙中。

They’d all done that because there’s this additional protection of religion-

他们都这么做了，因为有对宗教的额外保护——

19:41 …

……

and this taboo against violating that.

以及违反这一禁忌的禁忌。

And the same thing happened when Europe was Christianized.

当欧洲基督教化时，同样的事情也发生了。

Monasteries were pla— I mean, rich people, their faith had to be an active faith.

修道院是解放的——我的意思是，富人，他们的信仰必须是积极的信仰。

They had, they couldn’t just say their prayers and go to church on Sunday.

他们不能只说祈祷，然后在周日去教堂。

They would have to do something to publicly show that they were, you know, worthy of forgiveness or, or whatever.

他们必须做一些事情来公开表明他们值得宽恕，或者其他什么。

And so they would donate huge sums to the church.

因此他们会向教会捐赠巨额资金。

I think, you know, by the time of the French Revolution, which is obviously way in the future, the Church is the largest single landowner in France.

我认为，你知道，到法国大革命时，这显然是在未来，教会是法国最大的单一土地所有者。

I mean, the monasteries were…

我的意思是，修道院是……

These, these monasteries filled with monks who had taken vows of poverty were some of the richest places in Europe.

这些修道院里挤满了发誓摆脱贫困的僧侣，它们是欧洲最富有的地方之一。

It’s kind of a strange dichotomy here.

这是一种奇怪的二分法。

And then we should also say that the Vikings, many of them pragmatic people, so a lot of them would eventually then convert to Christianity, so you get-

然后我们还应该说维京人，他们中的许多人都是务实的人，所以他们中的许多人最终会皈依基督教，所以你得到-

That’s right.

没错。

…

……

20:33 you integrate yourself into the system.

你将自己融入到系统中。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

In some sense, religion creates this backbone of a society that stabilizes it, and then you create a bunch of rules about behavior, how you’re supposed to behave.

从某种意义上说，宗教创造了一个稳定社会的支柱，然后你创造了一系列关于行为的规则，你应该如何表现。

20:36 One of the rules is you don’t mess with the church buildings and- …

规则之一是你不能弄乱教堂建筑，而且——……

the religious- …

宗教——……

institutions and therefore they become great storage places for gold.

机构，因此它们成为黄金的绝佳储存场所。

And then the Vikings here just test the system.

然后维京人在这里只是测试系统。

I mean, it’s the fortune of geography for them and the fortune of their way of life to be able to raid, to become extremely rich and therefore this…

我的意思是，对他们来说，地理的幸运，以及他们生活方式的幸运，能够进行掠夺，变得极其富有，因此……

It both spreads the terror across England, and the message across Scandinavia that there’s a lot of riches to be had.

它既在英格兰传播了恐怖，又在斯堪的纳维亚半岛传播了这样的信息：有很多财富可供拥有。

And so the raids, that’s why there’s an explosion of raids.

所以突袭，这就是突袭激增的原因。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

21:23 And I think it’s not a coincidence that it happens when it does.

我认为它的发生并不是巧合。

I mean, you have both…

我的意思是，你们两个都有……

So there’s two main theories about why the Viking Age starts.

因此，关于维京时代为何开始，有两种主要理论。

The first, Will Durant puts it, I think, the best.

第一个，我认为威尔·杜兰特说得最好。

He says, “The fertility of the Viking women outstripped the fertility of the Viking land.” It’s basically overpopulation.

他说：“维京妇女的生育能力超过了维京土地的生育能力。”基本上是人口过剩。

And then they’re searching for food.

然后他们就开始寻找食物。

And then the second is there’s this technological breakthrough with the keel and maybe pressure put on Charlemagne’s consolidation and a little worries like that.

第二个是龙骨的技术突破，可能会给查理曼的整合带来压力，还有一些类似的担忧。

I don’t see why both can’t be true, but I do also think Europe…

我不明白为什么两者都不成立，但我也认为欧洲……

Like, Charlemagne puts together this vast empire that, you know, fairly approximates the Western Roman Empire.

比如，查理曼建立了这个庞大的帝国，你知道，它与西罗马帝国相当相似。

If you squint-

如果你眯着眼睛——

22:09 …

……

it looks like the Western Roman Empire.

它看起来像西罗马帝国。

He’s calling himself the new Roman emperor.

他称自己为新罗马皇帝。

This will eventually mutate into the Holy Roman Empire.

这最终将变异为神圣罗马帝国。

But it, it, it’s very much this idea that it’s back.

但它，它，正是这个想法让它回来了。

The Roman Empire is back.

罗马帝国回来了。

He’s crowned on Christmas Day in the year 800, and the empire is back.

他在公元 800 年的圣诞节加冕，帝国又回来了。

Unfortunately, it was sprawling.

不幸的是，它正在蔓延。

It hadn’t been thought through.

还没有考虑清楚。

There was…

有……

The communication was terrible.

沟通很糟糕。

You just couldn’t do it.

你就是做不到。

And so it was wealthy and weak, and that kind of attracts predators.

所以它既富又弱，这会吸引掠食者。

By the time the Vikings crash into it, you also have the added bonus for them of really feckless rulers.

当维京人撞上它时，你还会为他们带来额外的好处，那就是真正不负责任的统治者。

And we should say, going to Perplexity here, that Charlemagne, also known as Charles the Great, is the Frankish king who became emperor in 800 and ruled much of the Western and Central Europe in the late eighth and early ninth centuries.

说到这里的困惑，我们应该说，查理曼大帝，也被称为查理大帝，是一位法兰克国王，于 800 年成为皇帝，并在 8 世纪末和 9 世纪初统治了西欧和中欧的大部分地区。

22:52 And there’s a theory that the Viking age was also a reaction to the South expanding north, as you’re talking about.

正如你所说，有一种理论认为维京时代也是对南方向北扩张的反应。

You tell the story of Charlemagne weeping because he foresaw the evil his descendants would suffer.

你讲述了查理曼哭泣的故事，因为他预见到他的后代将遭受邪恶。

Did the Franks accidentally wake the sleeping giant by crushing the Saxons and removing the buffer zone between them and the, and the Vikings?

法兰克人是否通过碾压撒克逊人并消除了他们与维京人之间的缓冲区而意外唤醒了沉睡的巨人？

I’m sure that had something to do with it.

我确信这与它有关。

23:31 But yeah, as power was consolidated throughout specifically Central Europe, it did put a little pressure on the areas of Denmark.

但是，是的，随着权力在整个中欧的巩固，它确实给丹麦地区带来了一点压力。

And those are the areas that first kind of erupt down toward…

这些是首先爆发到……的区域。

Norway and Denmark contribute most of the early Vikings that hit the Franks.

挪威和丹麦贡献了大部分袭击法兰克人的早期维京人。

And the Frankish Empire is the most wealthy state in Europe.

法兰克帝国是欧洲最富有的国家。

It’s poured money into religious houses for the reasons you outlined.

由于你所概述的原因，它向宗教场所投入了资金。

And all sitting there, easy pickings for people who’ve just developed the keel.

所有这些都坐在那里，对于刚刚开发龙骨的人来说很容易选择。

And so they, the word of the raids sent terror through England and through Europe.

因此，袭击的消息在英国和整个欧洲引起了恐慌。

24:10 How much of the raids were reconnaissance, and how much was it just raids, and how much was it preparing for greater scale?

有多少袭击是侦察，有多少只是袭击，有多少是为更大规模的袭击做准备？

That’s a good…

这是一个很好的……

24:29 That’s a really good question.

这是一个非常好的问题。

I think a lot of the early raids are probing raids, to see what’s there.

我认为很多早期的突袭都是探索性的突袭，看看那里有什么。

24:37 Definitely when Ragnar Lothbrok, for example, sacks Paris in 845, that definitely results in waves of Viking attacks throughout the 860s, trying to copy that.

例如，当拉格纳·洛斯布鲁克 (Ragnar Lothbrok) 在 845 年洗劫巴黎时，肯定会导致维京人在整个 860 年代发起一波又一波的袭击，试图复制这一点。

And he actually is the template which everyone wants to follow.

而他其实就是大家都想效仿的模板。

And so that provokes large-scale invasions.

这会引发大规模的入侵。

And they hit England.

他们袭击了英格兰。

They kind of switch off.

他们有点关闭。

When France is pretty much exhausted, they switch over to England, and then when England is pretty much conquered, they switch back to France.

当法国几乎精疲力竭时，他们转向英国，然后当英国几乎被征服时，他们又回到法国。

So I think a lot of these are just probing raids at first, but they’re proof of concept and then they come in force.

所以我认为其中很多一开始只是试探性的袭击，但它们是概念的证明，然后它们就会生效。

For example, there was one king in England, his name was Ethelred the Unready, which is a pretty fun, funny…

例如，英国有一位国王，他的名字是“未准备者埃塞尔雷德”，这是一个非常有趣、有趣的……

Pun on his name.

双关语他的名字。

25:26 But he paid, in one year, 7.5 million silver pennies to the Vikings to get them to go away, which is a bit like someone’s mugging you, so you pay them more money so they’ll go away.

但他在一年内向维京人支付了 750 万银便士，让他们离开，这有点像有人抢劫你，所以你付给他们更多的钱，这样他们就会离开。

It’s-

这是——

That’s not gonna work, is it?

那行不通，是吗？

It’s not gonna work, but it will bring more muggers.

这不会起作用，但会带来更多的抢劫犯。

25:37 So he paid the equivalent of 50 adult elephants, 48,000 pounds of silver, to get the muggers to go away.

于是，他支付了相当于 50 头成年大象、48,000 磅的白银，才让劫匪离开。

And it’s unsurprising that throughout the course of his reign, he paid something like 20 tons of gold and silver, which he had to tax his people for.

毫不奇怪的是，在他的整个统治过程中，他支付了大约 20 吨的黄金和白银，而他不得不向人民征税。

Yeah, the Vikings are not the kind of people that that would make go away, right?

是的，维京人不是那种会让他们消失的人，对吧？

Nope.

没有。

26:07 That’s not gonna happen.

那不会发生。

Yeah, they would just come back in force.

是的，他们会大举回归。

Yeah, they trust silver to do the work of swords.

是的，他们相信银可以完成剑的工作。

You mentioned Ragnar Lothbrok.

你提到了拉格纳·洛斯布鲁克。

26:14 Who was Ragnar Lothbrok?

拉格纳·洛斯布鲁克是谁？

Did he actually exist?

他真的存在吗？

Some people believe he’s a composite from several real ninth century Viking leaders, versus an actual singular human.

有些人认为他是几个真实的九世纪维京领导人的合成体，而不是一个真正的单一人类。

Yeah, I’m a romantic.

是的，我是一个浪漫的人。

26:30 I would like to believe he existed.

我愿意相信他存在。

I think probably he’s a compilation of a lot of different…

我想他可能是很多不同的东西的集合……

There probably is a seed of truth there.

那里可能有一颗真理的种子。

There probably was someone named Ragnar.

可能有一个叫拉格纳的人。

The last name’s a little suspicious.

姓氏有点可疑。

Lothbrok means hairy breeches.

Lothbrok 的意思是毛茸茸的马裤。

He supposedly had magic pants that would prevent him from being poisoned by dragons or snakes.

据说他有一条神奇的裤子，可以防止他被龙或蛇毒害。

That’s maybe a clue.

这也许是一个线索。

We’re dealing with myth here.

我们在这里处理的是神话。

But he is really the template for Vikings.

但他确实是维京人的模板。

You want to figure out, like, what the Vikings wanted, who’s their success story, it’s Ragnar Lothbrok.

你想弄清楚维京人想要什么，谁是他们的成功故事，那就是拉格纳·洛斯布鲁克。

He’s born Norway, Denmark—countries argue over that.

他出生于挪威、丹麦——各国对此存在争议。

Maybe Sweden.

也许是瑞典。

Some sagas say he’s in Uppsala.

有些传说说他在乌普萨拉。

27:17 Anyway, he is, you know, penniless, and when he is in his late teens or early 20s, he decides to invade, sail up the Seine.

无论如何，你知道，他身无分文，当他十几岁或二十岁出头时，他决定入侵，沿着塞纳河航行。

There is a well-known city on the Seine and he raids it.

塞纳河畔有一座著名的城市，他袭击了它。

Supposedly, he takes the hinge of one of the gates from Paris to prove that he’s been there.

据说，他从巴黎拿走了其中一扇大门的铰链，以证明他曾经去过那里。

The- the Frankish king, I love the Frankish kings because they- their citizens give them names based on how much they hate them.

法兰克国王，我爱法兰克国王，因为他们的公民根据他们的恨程度给他们起名字。

So you have- you have Charles the Great, right?

所以你有——你有查理大帝，对吧？

Charles the Great, Charlemagne.

查理大帝，查理曼大帝。

He’s followed by Louis the Pious.

紧随其后的是虔诚者路易。

That’s probably the best one.

这可能是最好的一个。

And Louis the Pious is followed by Charles the Fat- …

虔诚的路易身后跟着胖子查理——……

who’s followed by Charles the Bald- …

秃头查尔斯紧随其后——……

who’s followed by Charles the Simple or Stupid.

跟随他的是简单或愚蠢的查尔斯。

Nice.

好的。

28:06 So you can trust the names-

所以你可以相信这些名字——

You can trust-

您可以信赖——

…

……

28:09 to give you the TL;DR of how good of a ruler they were.

让您了解他们是多么优秀的统治者。

Yeah, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

28:12 Exactly.

确切地。

So Charles the Great, widely acknowledged as sort of one of the great leaders of the Frankish Empire- …

因此，查理大帝，被广泛认为是法兰克帝国的伟大领袖之一……

28:14 aka Charlemagne.

又名查理曼。

28:22 So what- what else do we know about him?

那又怎样——我们对他还了解什么？

So, there’s going to Perplexity, “Ragnar’s portrayed as a Scandinavian warlord, often called a Danish or Swedish king,” like you mentioned.

所以，就像你提到的那样，《困惑》中“拉格纳被描绘成一个斯堪的纳维亚军阀，通常被称为丹麦或瑞典国王”。

Uh, “Active in the ninth century during the height of the Viking raids.” And then descriptions of the raids and the exploits.

呃，“活跃于九世纪维京袭击的高峰期。”然后是对袭击和攻击的描述。

“Medieval traditions link Ragnar to famous raids on the Frankish realms, especially the attack on Paris in 845, where he reputedly sails up the Seine and extorts a huge ransom from King Charles the Bald.” He’s also associated with repeated attacks on Anglo-Saxon England, embodying the archetypal Viking chieftain, charismatic, brutal, and focused on wealth, fame, and honor in battle.

“中世纪的传统将拉格纳与对法兰克王国的著名袭击联系起来，尤其是 845 年对巴黎的袭击，据说他在这次袭击中沿着塞纳河向秃头查理勒索了巨额赎金。”他还与对盎格鲁-撒克逊英格兰的多次袭击有关，体现了典型的维京酋长的形象，富有魅力，残暴，在战斗中专注于财富、名誉和荣誉。

So that, those are the ideals of the- of the Vikings.

所以，这些就是维京人的理想。

Charisma, brutality-

魅力、残暴——

29:22 …

……

and focusing on wealth, fame, and honor, especially honor in battle.

注重财富、名誉和荣誉，尤其是战斗中的荣誉。

Then also, what does he do with it, right?

然后，他用它做什么，对吗？

29:27 What does he do with it?

他用它做什么？

So, he gets about 7,000 pounds of silver from Charles the Bald, which destroys, essentially destroys Charles the Bald’s kingship.

所以，他从秃头查理那里得到了大约7000磅白银，这摧毁了，本质上摧毁了秃头查理的王权。

But he goes back home to Denmark, and the Danish king doesn’t want him around, because he’s too powerful; he’s too rich.

但他回到了丹麦，丹麦国王不想让他留在身边，因为他太强大了；他太有钱了。

He’s a ring giver.

他是一个送戒指的人。

You know, think Beowulf here, right?

你知道，想想贝奥武夫吧？

He’s got this large personal army which wants to join him for ad- he can do, you know, they’ll follow him, and he is a threat, and so he kind of is encouraged to go elsewhere.

他有一支庞大的私人军队，想要加入他的广告——他可以做到，你知道，他们会追随他，他是一个威胁，所以他被鼓励去其他地方。

30:00 He ends up raiding England for something like 15 years, and then there’s a, probably the most famous bit of the story is he- he’s shipwrecked, and King Ælla of Northumberland captures him and decides to kill him by throwing him into a pit with vipers.

他最终袭击了英格兰大约 15 年，然后，故事中最著名的部分可能是他——他遭遇了海难，诺森伯兰国王埃拉抓住了他，并决定把他扔进毒蛇坑里杀死他。

30:17 They throw him in this and the snakes are biting him, but he’s got his hairy breeches on, so it’s not working.

他们把他扔进去，蛇正在咬他，但他穿着毛茸茸的马裤，所以这不起作用。

So, he’s singing a hymn to Odin and he gets pulled out and he’s asked why he’s not dying and he explains, rather foolishly, that he has these hairy breeches.

所以，他正在唱一首奥丁赞美诗，然后他被拉了出来，有人问他为什么没有死，他相当愚蠢地解释说，他有这些毛茸茸的马裤。

So, they take the pants off and throw him back, and his last words are “When the boar bleats, the piglets come.”…

于是，他们脱掉裤子把他扔了回去，他的最后一句话是“野猪咩咩叫，小猪就来了”……

by which he means, “My- I have sons,” he had 12 of them, “and they will avenge me.” And they do; they lead the the Great Heathen Army to invade and eventually conquer England.

他的意思是，“天哪，我有儿子，”他有 12 个儿子，“他们将为我报仇。”他们确实这么做了；他们带领异教徒大军入侵并最终征服了英格兰。

Ælla, fun fact, not so fun for him, is the, supposedly was captured by the son of Ragnar, his name is Ivar the Boneless, which is somewhat terrifying of a name.

埃拉，有趣的事实，对他来说不那么有趣，据说是被拉格纳的儿子俘虏的，他的名字是无骨者伊瓦尔，这个名字有点可怕。

And he is, he’s the first person that a blood eagle was performed on.

他是，他是第一个接受血鹰手术的人。

What’s the blood eagle?

血鹰是什么？

It’s when they remove the lungs, they, while you’re still alive, they cut you open and remove the lungs and put the lungs on your back.

当他们切除肺部时，他们在你还活着的时候，把你切开，取出肺部，然后把肺部放在你的背上。

31:10 And then when you try to breathe, they flutter like wings, so it’s called, like an eagle.

然后当你尝试呼吸时，它们会像翅膀一样扑动，所以它被称为“像鹰一样”。

It’s called the blood eagle.

它的名字叫血鹰。

That is horrible.

那太可怕了。

It’s disgusting, yes.

是的，这很恶心。

31:24 And this is what Ælla, you know, deserves, according to, you know, Bjorn Ironside and Ivar the Boneless, the sons of Ragnar.

根据拉格纳的儿子比约恩·艾恩塞德和无骨者伊瓦尔的说法，这就是埃拉应得的。

Like, this is what they get.

就像，这就是他们得到的。

Offense.

罪行。

This is the piglets coming- …

这是小猪来了——……

31:35 to their own boar, you know?

他们自己的野猪，你知道吗？

One last thing about Ragnar, is his wife is also an important part.

关于拉格纳的最后一件事是他的妻子也是重要的一部分。

He had something like 12 sons, the accounts differ, and probably three marriages.

他大约有 12 个儿子，记载各不相同，可能还结过 3 次婚姻。

But his most famous wife was named Aslaug, and she fell in love with him.

但他最著名的妻子名叫阿斯劳格，她爱上了他。

He was on a ship, he was passing through, so- …

他在一艘船上，他正在路过，所以……

kind of a glamorous sea king, right?

有点迷人的海王，对吧？

With his, he’s the, he’s living the dream.

有了他，他就是他，他正在实现梦想。

And she sees him and she wants to be married to him, and- and he- he says no.

她看到他，她想嫁给他，但他拒绝了。

He says, ’cause he wants a clever wife, and so he says, “If you can accomplish these three things, you can marry me.

他说，因为他想要一个聪明的妻子，所以他说：“如果你能做到这三件事，你就可以嫁给我。

So tomorrow, I’ll be here tonight, and then tomorrow, I want you to come to my ship.

所以明天，今晚我会在这里，然后明天，我希望你来我的船上。

I want you to have no clothes on-

我要你没穿衣服-

32:26 …

……

but not be naked.

但不要赤身裸体。

I want you to have not eaten a meal, but not have fasted.

我希望你没有吃过饭，但没有禁食。

And I want you to come without a companion, but not alone.” And so she shows up with a dog.

我希望你不带同伴来，但不要孤身一人。”于是她带着一只狗出现了。

She doesn’t have a companion, but she’s not alone.

她没有同伴，但她并不孤单。

She’s taken a bite out of an onion, so she’s eaten.

她咬了一口洋葱，所以她吃了。

She hasn’t fasted, but she hasn’t had a meal.

她没有禁食，但也没有吃饭。

And then she has very long hair, and so she’s using the hair to cover herself.

然后她的头发很长，所以她用头发遮住自己。

So she has no clothes-

所以她没有衣服——

Oh, she shows up naked, but she’s-

哦，她赤裸裸地出现，但她——

…

……

32:56 but clothed.

但有衣服。

Right.

正确的。

32:57 Wow.

哇。

Yeah, so in this, so this is kind of the cleverness that would be expected of a Viking woman.

是的，所以这就是维京女人所期望的聪明才智。

32:58 So they’re well matched, they’re like the ideal couple.

所以他们很般配，就像理想的情侣一样。

And then they have 12 kids, 12 sons.

然后他们有 12 个孩子，12 个儿子。

Not just 12 kids, 12 sons.

不仅仅是12个孩子，还有12个儿子。

And many of them end up…

他们中的许多人最终……

Many of them end up almost as famous as their father.

他们中的许多人最终几乎和他们的父亲一样出名。

Ivar the Boneless.

无骨者伊瓦尔。

33:14 Bjorn Ironside, and many others.

比约恩·艾恩赛德等等。

These sons later appear as leaders of major Viking forces in England, particularly the so-called Great Heathen Army- …

这些儿子后来成为英格兰主要维京军队的领导者，特别是所谓的伟大异教徒军队——……

that invades in 865.

865年入侵。

And they are historical.

它们是历史性的。

33:28 They are—I mean, there’s no—these were the names of Vikings who attacked and conquered England.

他们是——我的意思是，没有——这些是攻击并征服英格兰的维京人的名字。

They end up attacking Islamic Spain.

他们最终攻击了伊斯兰西班牙。

They go all over Europe.

他们走遍欧洲。

Well, for them, it sounds like glory in battle is really important.

嗯，对于他们来说，战斗中的荣耀听起来确实很重要。

That’s right, yeah.

没错，是的。

And so it’s not even- It’s just part of the culture, it’s part-

所以它甚至不是-它只是文化的一部分，它的一部分-

That’s right.

没错。

…

……

33:49 the honor culture.

荣誉文化。

Men die, but names live forever.

人会死，但名字永存。

As a small aside, since Ragnar is the star of the Vikings TV series, I don’t know if you’ve gotten a chance to watch any of it.

顺便说一句，由于拉格纳是维京人电视剧的明星，我不知道你是否有机会观看其中任何一部。

33:53 Is there any accuracy to it?

它有准确性吗？

I think it’s well done.

我认为做得很好。

34:08 My one quibble, Ragnar’s brother is Rollo in the show, right?

我有一点狡辩，拉格纳的兄弟是剧中的罗洛，对吧？

They weren’t brothers.

他们不是兄弟。

In fact, by some accounts, they were born 80 years apart.

事实上，根据一些说法，他们的出生年龄相差 80 岁。

But as a storytelling device, I applaud that.

但作为一种讲故事的手段，我对此表示赞赏。

Yeah, they basically take all the main Vikings and put them all together.

是的，他们基本上把所有主要的维京人都放在一起。

34:25 Just so it’s a-

就这样它是一个——

I mean, I get it.

我的意思是，我明白了。

34:31 I get, it’s confusing.

我明白了，这很令人困惑。

Honestly, in writing a book about it, the hardest part was coming up with an organizational scheme.

老实说，在写一本关于它的书时，最困难的部分是提出一个组织计划。

Like, what’s the overarching thing that links them together?

比如，将它们联系在一起的最重要的因素是什么？

Well, there’s certainly an overarching thing, but we don’t have information about it.

嗯，确实有一个重要的事情，但我们没有相关信息。

34:40 This is, the problem is we get to see just slivers of the information-

问题是我们只能看到一小部分信息——

That’s right, that’s right.

没错，没错。

…

……

34:52 from the raids.

来自袭击。

There might be just this rich history that we know nothing about.

也许有我们一无所知的丰富历史。

Like where did this warrior culture come from?

这种武士文化是从哪里来的？

Like, what was the evolution of these ideas of honor and battle?

比如，这些荣誉和战斗的观念是如何演变的？

I mean, maybe it’s being overly romantic, but you can imagine the ideals of battle from the Roman Empire, from the Roman Republic and the early imperial period coming up north to Scandinavia.

我的意思是，也许这太浪漫了，但你可以想象来自罗马帝国、罗马共和国和早期帝国时期的战争理想向北延伸到斯堪的纳维亚半岛。

And we just know very little traces about that.

我们对此知之甚少。

Yeah.

是的。

35:26 Even the name Scandinavia is from a Roman author.

甚至斯堪的纳维亚这个名字也来自一位罗马作家。

I mean, they thought it was an island.

我的意思是，他们认为这是一个岛屿。

They thought Scandinavia was an island with one tribe, the Scandia tribe, but you know, close enough.

他们认为斯堪的纳维亚半岛是一个只有一个部落的岛屿，即斯堪的纳维亚部落，但你知道，已经足够接近了。

And who was the, what was in this Great Heathen Army that invaded England in 865?

865 年入侵英格兰的异教徒大军是谁？

35:39 What can we say about that?

对此我们能说些什么呢？

Well, there’s this famous scene in the Viking siege of Paris in 845, which is really the Europeans’ introduction, or Europe as a whole, to a Viking army, not just a raid and then what it could do.

好吧，845 年维京人围攻巴黎时有一个著名的场景，这实际上是欧洲人或整个欧洲对维京军队的介绍，而不仅仅是一次袭击以及它能做什么。

35:51 And the king, the emperor, Charles, said, “You know, let’s find out what they want and how much do I have to pay to get them to leave?” And so his ambassador went to a Viking and said, “Who is your king?” And the Viking looked at him, he didn’t understand, and he said, “We have no king.

国王、皇帝查尔斯说：“你知道吗，让我们看看他们想要什么，以及我需要付多少钱才能让他们离开？”于是他的大使去见一位维京人并问道：“谁是你的国王？”维京人看着他，他不明白，他说：“我们没有国王。

We are all kings.” So they’re very like decentralized, tough.

我们都是国王。”所以它们非常像去中心化的、强硬的。

They only valued leaders who could prove that they had won.

他们只看重能够证明他们已经获胜的领导者。

You know, could give out the rings.

你知道，可以赠送戒指。

So flat organization, very meritocratic.

组织扁平化，非常任人唯贤。

Yes.

是的。

If you’re good at what you do, you demonstrate that skill in battle.

如果你擅长你所做的事情，你就会在战斗中展示这种技能。

36:37 That means you get to have maybe a leadership position.

这意味着你可能会获得领导职位。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

And the moment you’re no longer effective, you don’t get to have this leadership position.

一旦你不再有效，你就无法拥有这个领导职位。

36:45 “We’re all kings.” That’s gangster.

“我们都是国王。”那是黑帮。

Throughout history, the Mongols—Genghis Khan was famous for this meritocracy.

纵观历史，蒙古人——成吉思汗以这种精英统治而闻名。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

That’s one of the components of an extremely effective military force, is if meritocracy is prized.

如果重视精英管理，这是一支极其有效的军事力量的组成部分之一。

37:00 Same is true for who gets to rule.

对于谁来统治也是如此。

How do you determine the succession?

如何确定继承人？

If you’re just giving it to your oldest son, that’s gonna be a problem.

如果你只是把它给你的大儿子，那就会是一个问题。

Yeah.

是的。

37:16 Yeah, that…

是的，那个……

I could not agree more.

我完全同意。

There are some problems with meritocracy in civil war because it tends to…

内战中的精英管理存在一些问题，因为它往往……

The only way you can find out, like Alexander the Great, right?

这是你能找到答案的唯一方法，就像亚历山大大帝一样，对吗？

Who does your empire belong to?

你的帝国属于谁？

To the strongest.

给最强的。

That kind of guarantees the civil war.

这保证了内战。

At least with giving it to your older son, you know who’s gonna be…

至少把它给你的大儿子，你知道谁会......

There’s an element of stability there although you may end up with a Caligula.

尽管你最终可能会得到一个卡利古拉，但那里有一个稳定的元素。

More likely than not, you’re gonna end up with a Caligula, I would say, human nature being what it is.

我想说，你很可能最终会成为卡利古拉，人性就是如此。

It’s- It’s…

这是——这是……

37:47 Yeah, yeah, it always converges to the asshole, and the asshole holds power, a crazy asshole.

是啊，是啊，它总是汇聚到混蛋身上，而混蛋掌握着权力，一个疯狂的混蛋。

So yeah, Great Heathen Army, 865.

是的，伟大的异教徒军队，865。

So the Great Heathen Army, they were war bands that…

所以伟大的异教徒军队，他们是战争乐队……

37:58 Each followed this guy and this guy.

各自跟着这个家伙和这个家伙。

“And I’m gonna sit you down in this room.

“我会让你在这个房间里坐下。

I’m gonna tell you my plan.

我会告诉你我的计划。

You’re gonna listen or you’re gonna push back.

你要么听，要么反击。

I’m gonna push back, and we’ll just have this kind of creative discussion and come up with a plan we all agree on.”

我会反驳，我们将进行这种创造性的讨论，并提出一个我们都同意的计划。”

So it used to be relatively small Viking groups that were doing raids.

所以过去是相对较小的维京团体进行袭击。

Right.

正确的。

And then the Great Heathen Army is this large coalition of Viking groups-

然后伟大的异教徒军队就是这个维京团体的大联盟——

That’s right

没错

…

……

38:23 without a real leader that was able to somehow stabilize enough to have something like governance.

没有一个真正的领导者能够以某种方式足够稳定以进行治理之类的事情。

Basically, there seems to be a very rapid evolution of a Viking in every part of the world they touch.

基本上，维京人在他们接触到的世界的每个地方似乎都在快速进化。

You go explore raid, conquer, establish state- …

你去探索突袭、征服、建立国家——……

And trade routes, and always maintaining a grand ambition, but no longer doing the violence, and always being sufficiently programmatic and flexible where you can accept a conversion to Christianity, for example, if it’s useful-

还有贸易路线，始终保持宏伟的野心，但不再实施暴力，始终保持足够的计划性和灵活性，例如，如果有用的话，你可以接受皈依基督教——

That’s right

没错

…

……

39:07 and then they accept the culture, accept the language.

然后他们接受了文化，接受了语言。

So that’s why they integrate, and the thing that we think of as Viking dis- kind of dissipates and disappears pretty quickly.

这就是为什么它们融合在一起，而我们所认为的维京人很快就会消散和消失。

Yeah, and I think the best example of this is France, right?

是的，我认为最好的例子是法国，对吗？

39:17 So the Vikings, which is—we’ll talk about this more probably with Rollo—but, you know, the Vikings settle in France, in the North Man’s Duchy, which is shortened to Normandy.

因此，维京人——我们可能会与罗洛讨论这个问题——但是，你知道，维京人定居在法国的北人公国，简称诺曼底。

And they, within a generation…

而他们，在一代人的时间内……

I mean, Rollo, whose real name is Hrolf Eric, he names his son William.

我的意思是，罗洛，他的真名是赫尔夫·埃里克，他给儿子起名叫威廉。

That’s not a Viking name.

这不是维京人的名字。

And within a generation, the language is gone.

在一代人的时间里，这种语言就消失了。

The Viking names are gone.

维京人的名字已经消失了。

The worship of Odin is, as far as we can tell, gone.

据我们所知，对奥丁的崇拜已经消失了。

And the Normans are building churches and marrying into the local aristocracy in there.

诺曼人正在建造教堂并与当地的贵族联姻。

Their…

他们的…

39:58 Essentially, their Viking-ness is gone except for one thing, their, like, incredible vitality, which the Normans essentially conquer kingdoms at both ends of Europe, Sicily and England, and found two of the foremost powerful states in medieval Europe.

从本质上讲，他们的维京风格已经消失了，除了一件事，那就是他们令人难以置信的活力，诺曼人基本上征服了欧洲两端的王国，西西里岛和英格兰，并建立了中世纪欧洲两个最强大的国家。

Yeah, so the ambition is there.

是的，所以野心就在那里。

Is there.

有没有。

The vitality is there, but it’s-

活力是有的，但是——

The methods have changed.

方法已经改变。

Yeah, and they change rapidly, which is fascinating.

是的，而且它们变化很快，这很有趣。

40:20 So you have a book.

所以你有一本书。

You have a podcast series on the Normans, so let’s talk about Rollo.

你们有一个关于诺曼人的播客系列，所以我们来谈谈罗洛。

Who was Rollo?

罗洛是谁？

The famous Viking war leader who became the first ruler of Normandy, Northern France.

著名的维京战争领袖，成为法国北部诺曼底的第一任统治者。

Well, first I should say, as someone of Norwegian descent, I’m gonna fall down on the Norwegian side of the argument here because- …

好吧，首先我应该说，作为一个挪威血统的人，我会站在挪威这边，因为——……

40:38 Norway and Denmark almost came to blows over which was the birthplace of Rollo.

挪威和丹麦差点因为罗洛的出生地而发生冲突。

But the consensus seems to be Norway- Not just biased.

但挪威的共识似乎不只是有偏见。

40:56 So he was…

所以他是……

The only thing we…

我们唯一...

The only glimpse we get of Rollo as a young man is he was very tall, so he’s called Hrolf Walker, Hrolf Ganger, because he was so tall he couldn’t ride the little Viking ponies.

我们对罗洛年轻时唯一的印象是他很高，所以他被称为赫罗夫·沃克、赫罗夫·甘格，因为他太高了，不能骑维京小马。

So he had to walk everywhere.

所以他必须到处步行。

But…

但是……

Kinda poor, probably raised on stories of Ragnar and the other Viking lords, and he goes.

有点穷，可能是听着拉格纳和其他维京领主的故事长大的，但他走了。

He may have participated in some of the earlier, like the 860 raids that the Vikings did on Paris or the Seine, you know, and then he eventually ends up plundering what will become the Norman coast.

他可能参加过一些早期的袭击，比如 860 年维京人对巴黎或塞纳河的袭击，你知道，然后他最终掠夺了诺曼海岸。

And in the year 911, he makes a treaty, the Treaty of Saint-Clair-sur-Epte, with the Frankish King, Charles the Simple, which is not stupid.

911年，他与法兰克国王“傻子查理”签订了《埃普特河畔圣克莱尔条约》，这并不愚蠢。

It’s more like straightforward.

这更像是简单的。

41:52 There’s no guile in how he talks.

他说话的方式没有任何狡诈。

And Charles makes a really interesting deal with Rollo, which is, “Why don’t you settle here, integrate into the local aristocracy and defend the Nor- the French coast against the Vikings?” Which I don’t know.

查尔斯与罗洛做了一个非常有趣的交易，那就是，“你为什么不在这里定居，融入当地贵族并保卫法国北部海岸免受维京人的侵害呢？”我不知道。

It’s like putting a burglar in charge of your security or some- I don’t know, but it works.

这就像让一个窃贼负责你的安全或其他什么——我不知道，但它确实有效。

It works.

有用。

And Rollo, by the time he makes that deal, he’s probably in his mid-fifties to mid-sixties.

而罗洛，当他达成这笔交易时，他可能已经五十几岁到六十几岁了。

It’s unclear when he was born, but the point is he’s lived the Viking life.

目前还不清楚他出生的时间，但关键是他过着维京人的生活。

He’s got something like 20 or 30, if you add up all the sagas they say that he…

他有大约 20 或 30 个，如果你把所有的传奇故事加起来，他们说他……

they gave him this many coins or whatever.

他们给了他这么多硬币什么的。

He has probably 20 or 30 tons of silver that he has acquired and then probably given out to whatever.

他可能拥有 20 或 30 吨白银，他已经获得了这些白银，然后可能将其捐赠给任何人。

So-

所以——

So yeah, so he’s done the full-

所以是的，所以他已经完成了全部-

He’s done the thing.

他已经做到了。

…

……

42:49 the raid- …

突袭——……

and then the conquering and then-

然后是征服，然后——

And then the king says, “Can you settle here?” “Can I give you legitimacy?”

然后国王说：“你能在这里定居吗？” “我可以给你合法性吗？”

So he does the diplomacy of a treaty.

所以他进行条约外交。

42:55 …

……

Then he does the good state craft and state building and then becomes, I mean, European.

然后他完成了良好的国家工艺和国家建设，然后成为，我的意思是，欧洲人。

In one life, he goes through the full journey.

他这一生，走完了完整的旅程。

It’s…

这是……

43:08 Yeah, yeah.

是啊，是啊。

And then his son, William Longsword-

然后是他的儿子威廉·长剑——

William Longsword

威廉·长剑

…

……

43:11 succeeded him and …

接替了他并且……

Gets assassinated, but he does enlarge Normandy.

被暗杀，但他确实扩大了诺曼底。

43:14 So basically, every ruler after Rollo enlarges Normandy until it essentially becomes more powerful than the king- …

所以基本上，罗洛之后的每一位统治者都扩大了诺曼底，直到它本质上变得比国王更强大——……

By far.

到目前为止。

There’s a wonderful scene when- when Rollo signs the treaty.

当罗洛签署条约时，有一个美妙的场景。

He becomes a liege lord of the French king, and there’s this- this great scene ’cause Rollo has to bend down and kiss the foot of the king.

他成为了法国国王的领主，这是一个伟大的场景，因为罗洛必须弯下腰来亲吻国王的脚。

So Rollo’s probably, you know, he’s a Norwegian Viking.

所以罗洛可能是挪威维京人。

He’s probably, I don’t know, six foot.

我不知道，他可能有六英尺高。

43:47 Charles, this little Frank, he’s probably five ten.

查尔斯，这个小弗兰克，他可能五点十分。

So he’s like Rollo’s towering over him, and he’s- there’s a large- both armies are watching.

所以他就像罗洛高高在上，而他——有一大群——两支军队都在看着。

There’s a bunch of people who have come in from the countryside.

有一群人从农村过来。

They’ve heard something’s going on, and this important part of this feudal ceremony, you have to kiss your lord’s foot to- to, you know, be in a subservient role.

他们听说发生了什么事，这是封建仪式的重要组成部分，你必须亲吻你领主的脚才能，你知道，扮演一个顺从的角色。

And Rollo says, “I’m not gonna do that.” So he turns to one of his guards and says, “You kiss the foot,” and the guard’s probably taller than he is.

罗洛说：“我不会那样做。”于是他转向他的一名警卫说：“你亲吻脚，”而这名警卫可能比他高。

So he bends down and he picks the king’s foot up to his mouth-

于是他弯下腰，把国王的脚举到嘴边——

That’s the way to do it.

这就是方法。

…

……

44:20 which Charles goes falling on the back.

查尔斯仰面朝天。

I mean- …

我的意思是——……

I can’t think of a better example of the relationship between the Norman dukes and the French kings.

我想不出比诺曼公爵和法国国王之间的关系更好的例子了。

I mean, it’s perfect.

我的意思是，它很完美。

It’s perfect.

太完美了。

Oh God, I love the Vikings.

天哪，我爱维京人。

44:29 So as you’ve covered, and maybe you could speak to that a bit more, for a long time to come, Normans have influence on Europe and beyond.

正如您所介绍的，也许您可​​以多谈一点，在未来很长一段时间内，诺曼人对欧洲及其他地区都有影响力。

Yeah, it’s hard to overstate Normandy’s impact on Europe in the Middle Ages.

是的，诺曼底对中世纪欧洲的影响怎么强调都不为过。

44:42 Of course, they’ll go on to conquer England as well.

当然，他们也将继续征服英格兰。

But Rollo, when he signs the treaty, it’s an ambiguous treaty.

但是罗洛，当他签署该条约时，这是一个模棱两可的条约。

He’s given a title which is rather ambiguous.

他被赋予了一个相当模糊的头衔。

He’s not a duke, and it’s not clear.

他不是公爵，这一点还不清楚。

He’s not an earl.

他不是伯爵。

He’s not a duke.

他不是公爵。

He’s just subservient to the king.

他只是臣服于国王而已。

Which means Normandy is not a duchy.

这意味着诺曼底不是公国。

It’s not a principality.

这不是一个公国。

It’s kind of this ambiguous, no one really knows what it is.

这是一种模棱两可的东西，没有人真正知道它是什么。

And so Rollo, being a good Viking, and his descendants being good Vikings, despite becoming French, they just call themselves Duke.

因此，罗洛作为一个优秀的维京人，他的后代也是优秀的维京人，尽管成为了法国人，但他们只是称自己为公爵。

45:27 And they essentially seize whatever power they want.

他们基本上攫取了他们想要的任何权力。

There’s one Norman duke, I think he’s the grandson of Rollo.

有一位诺曼公爵，我认为他是罗洛的孙子。

He’s kidnapped by the French king when he’s 14.

14 岁时，他被法国国王绑架。

He escapes the captivity and kidnaps the king.

他逃脱了囚禁并绑架了国王。

As a 14-year-old, I mean, it’s just—these are—these guys are crazy.

作为一个 14 岁的孩子，我的意思是，这些人太疯狂了。

How far geographically and in time does the influence of the Normans and Normandy go?

诺曼人和诺曼底的影响在地理上和时间上有多远？

45:50 So what should we understand about the impact of Normans- …

那么我们应该如何理解诺曼人的影响......

in history?

历史上？

I’m a romantic, so I, when I read history, I usually end up rooting for the losers.

我是一个浪漫的人，所以当我读历史时，我通常最终会支持失败者。

46:05 I want Harold Godwinson to beat William the Conqueror.

我希望哈罗德·戈德温森击败征服者威廉。

You know, I want Hector to beat Achilles.

你知道，我希望赫克托击败阿喀琉斯。

Never works, no matter how many times I read it.

无论我读多少次，都不起作用。

But I was always interested in the Normans because of the Norman conquest of England.

但我一直对诺曼人感兴趣，因为诺曼人征服了英格兰。

And I have a twin brother, and he asked me, we were taking a walk and he asked me, “How did Europe…” Because I was reading about the Dark Ages at the time, the early Middle Ages.

我有一个双胞胎兄弟，他问我，我们正在散步，他问我，“欧洲怎么样……”因为我当时正在读有关中世纪早期的黑暗时代的书。

“And how did Europe, this kind of backwards place, become the dominant-“

“而欧洲这种落后的地方是如何成为主导的——”

46:39 “…

“……

force in the world?” And I started thinking about that, and my answer really is the Normans.

世界上有什么力量？”我开始思考这个问题，我的答案确实是诺曼人。

The Normans, that’s the great change between Europe as a backwards, inward-looking place, and Europe as a kind of confident, outward-looking place.

对于诺曼人来说，这是一个落后、内向的欧洲与一个自信、外向的欧洲之间的巨大变化。

And that change happens under the Normans.

这种变化发生在诺曼人统治下。

I mean, the Normans, it’s not a coincidence that they lead the charge in the First Crusade.

我的意思是，诺曼人在第一次十字军东征中带头冲锋并非巧合。

They create the state of England.

他们创建了英格兰。

If you look at England before the Vikings arrive, there are seven, it’s the Heptarchy, there are seven kingdoms in England, and the Vikings destroyed all but one.

如果你看看维京人到达之前的英格兰，你会发现有七个，这是七国，英格兰有七个王国，维京人摧毁了所有王国，只剩下一个。

Only Wessex is preserved, and they’ve conquered about half of Wessex.

只有威塞克斯得以保存下来，他们已经征服了大约一半的威塞克斯。

And there’s a young king.

还有一位年轻的国王。

What’s he gonna do?

他要做什么？

47:27 But that king is Alfred the Great, and he conquers the rest.

但那个国王是阿尔弗雷德大帝，他征服了其余的人。

And then his grandson, Athelstan, is the first man called King of England, king of all Angles.

然后他的孙子阿塞尔斯坦是第一个被称为英格兰国王、万天使之王的人。

And then they do the same thing almost wherever they go.

然后他们几乎无论走到哪里都做同样的事情。

They help create modern France by ripping apart Charlemagne’s empire, which was unwieldy.

他们通过撕裂笨重的查理曼帝国来帮助创建现代法国。

It looked good on paper, but it was unwieldy.

它在纸面上看起来不错，但很笨拙。

It was replaced by this leaner, meaner, compact thing.

它被这种更精简、更精简、更紧凑的东西所取代。

They figure out how to deal with the Vikings by essentially building fortified bridges, changes to their army, and so forth.

他们想出了如何通过建造坚固的桥梁、改变军队等等来对付维京人。

The Vikings, I like to call it creative destruction.

维京人，我喜欢称之为创造性破坏。

They, by destroying the things they destroyed, they cleared the ground for something stronger to grow.

他们通过摧毁他们所摧毁的事物，为更强大的事物的生长扫清了道路。

That’s brilliant.

太棒了。

48:11 The creative destruction engine that created Europe was the Normans and the Vikings.

诺曼人和维京人是创造欧洲的创造性破坏引擎。

And then you also, you have another book that talks about the Byzantine Empire, so you have the creative destruction that resulted in Europe, that Europe led to this Western, quote-unquote, civilization that we think of now.

然后你还有另一本书谈论拜占庭帝国，所以你有导致欧洲的创造性破坏，欧洲导致了我们现在想到的西方文明。

And the thing that protected Europe for centuries was the existence of the Byzantine Empire, the East Roman Empire, because of all the threats- …

几个世纪以来保护欧洲的是拜占庭帝国、东罗马帝国的存在，因为所有的威胁——……

That came towards Europe.

那是朝着欧洲而来的。

This strong, stable empire that is the Byzantine Empire protected the forces from everything that came from the east.

这个强大、稳定的帝国，即拜占庭帝国，保护着来自东方的一切力量。

They were a buffer.

他们是一个缓冲区。

They were a buffer, giving Europe this kind of vital time to develop the way it needed to develop.

它们是一种缓冲，为欧洲提供了如此重要的时间来发展其所需的发展方式。

So it’s interesting to think that the world as we see now was a results- …

因此，有趣的是，我们现在看到的世界是一个结果——……

49:07 of a sequence of quite lucky geographical and leadership decisions in history.

历史上一系列相当幸运的地理和领导决策。

I mean, it really does pivot on a few points of geography and a few special leaders- …

我的意思是，它确实以几个地理点和一些特殊的领导人为中心——……

that conquer.

那个征服。

Yeah.

是的。

49:30 Had Constantine chosen his side a little less wisely, the world’s gonna be very different.

如果君士坦丁选择了不那么明智的立场，世界将会变得非常不同。

Yeah, so Constantine is the guy who moved the capital of the empire from Rome to Constantinople, thereby giving a lot more focus to the east.

是的，君士坦丁将帝国首都从罗马迁至君士坦丁堡，从而将更多的注意力集中在东方。

49:37 Thereby protecting Europe from the gigantic threats that- …

从而保护欧洲免受巨大威胁——……

loomed in the east.

隐约出现在东方。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

49:56 And the Islamic invasions of the seventh century, they couldn’t get past that choke point of Constantinople.

七世纪的伊斯兰入侵，他们无法突破君士坦丁堡这个咽喉要道。

So they had to take the long way across Africa.

所以他们不得不长途跋涉穿越非洲。

You know, and by the time they get to Spain and conquer Spain and into—that’s the Battle of Tours, you know—Charles Martel is able to stop them, and they’re, they’re massively overextended.

你知道，当他们到达西班牙并征服西班牙并进入——这就是图尔之战，你知道——查尔斯·马特尔能够阻止他们，而他们，他们已经严重过度扩张了。

You know, I think it’s a very different story if they can come in through the Black Sea.

你知道，我认为如果他们能够通过黑海进入，那就是一个非常不同的故事了。

And all the times the East Roman Empire almost died from all the invasions, all of those invaders would have just conquered the entirety of Europe.

每当东罗马帝国几乎因所有的入侵而灭亡时，所有这些入侵者都刚刚征服了整个欧洲。

Yeah, I mean, I don’t think they would’ve met much resistance.

是的，我的意思是，我认为他们不会遇到太多阻力。

Yeah.

是的。

50:34 So rewinding back, what was the religion, the religious beliefs, the gods that the Vikings believed that we’ve mentioned a little bit of?

那么回过头来，我们刚才提到的维京人相信的宗教、宗教信仰、神灵是什么？

Thor and Odin, how did they see this, this world and the universe?

托尔和奥丁，他们是如何看待这个、这个世界和宇宙的？

It’s, so the Viking gods are…

是的，维京诸神是……

50:51 I mean, they’ve been sanitized, but they’re quite terrifying.

我的意思是，它们已经被消毒了，但它们非常可怕。

But at their basic conception of the universe is an eternal struggle between chaos and order, which chaos will eventually win.

但在他们的宇宙基本概念中，混沌与秩序之间存在着永恒的斗争，而混沌最终会获胜。

So I think the best view of cosmology is of concentric circles, with Utgard as the outer realm, and that’s where the chaos is.

所以我认为宇宙学的最佳视角是同心圆，乌特加德是外部领域，而这就是混乱所在。

And those are the, that’s where the frost giants are, all the monsters that seek to destroy.

那些就是霜巨人所在的地方，所有寻求毁灭的怪物。

The gods represent order and stability, and the monsters represent chaos, and it’s an eternal war between the two of them.

众神代表秩序与稳定，怪物代表混乱，两者之间是一场永恒的战争。

51:30 So there are different categories of gods depending on which circle you come from.

因此，根据你来自哪个圈子，神有不同的类别。

The gods don’t all like each other.

众神并不都喜欢彼此。

They’re not…

他们不是……

Sometimes they engage in wars.

有时他们会参与战争。

Some of the most famous gods, the Norse gods, you know, Loki or Freya, come from outside the Aesir, the main gods.

一些最著名的神，北欧诸神，你知道，洛基或芙蕾雅，来自阿萨神族之外的主神。

So it was kind of a fluid thing.

所以这是一种流动的事情。

It’s more a way to understand the world.

它更多的是一种理解世界的方式。

I think so, yeah.

我想是的，是的。

51:55 The thunder is Thor fighting the ice giants, and that’s what that is.

雷霆是托尔与冰巨人的战斗，就是这样。

Going to Perplexity.

走向困惑。

52:03 Vikings followed the polytheistic, ritual-heavy religion centered on a pantheon of gods and spirits with no single holy book or unified church, and practices varied a lot by region and family.

维京人信奉多神论、仪式性很强的宗教，以神灵万神殿为中心，没有一本圣书或统一的教会，而且各地和家族的习俗也有很大差异。

And so the major gods were Odin and Thor and Freya.

所以主要的神是奥丁、托尔和芙蕾雅。

Odin was—his domain was war, kingship, wisdom, death.

奥丁——他的领域是战争、王权、智慧、死亡。

Thor was protection, thunder, fertility.

托尔代表保护、雷霆、生育力。

Freya was love, magic, battle dead.

芙蕾雅是爱、魔法、战斗的死者。

Typical worshipers for Odin were chieftains and elite warriors and poets.

奥丁的典型崇拜者是酋长、精英战士和诗人。

Typical worshipers for Thor were farmers and “ordinary people,” and typical worshipers of Freya were women, magic practitioners, and lovers.

托尔的典型崇拜者是农民和“普通人”，芙蕾雅的典型崇拜者是妇女、魔法师和恋人。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

52:52 I mean, I’ve heard it…

我的意思是，我听说过……

I think you can break it down saying like, Odin was the elite.

我想你可以把它分解说，奥丁是精英。

He’s kind of more aristocratic, right?

他有点贵族气，对吧？

He, he’s the god of poetry; you need to read, et cetera.

他，他是诗神；你需要阅读等等。

Only the elite would know how to do that.

只有精英人才知道如何做到这一点。

A farmer wouldn’t really care about that.

农民不会真正关心这个。

Wherein Thor is a more earthy god.

其中托尔是一个更接地气的神。

You know, you want the waves to be less, you know, pray to Thor.

你知道，你希望海浪变小，你知道，向托尔祈祷。

I find Odin, I think, most disturbing.

我认为奥丁是最令人不安的。

He’s the god of madness and the god of poetry, which, I guess those are related.

他是疯狂之神和诗歌之神，我想这两者是相关的。

But in battle, I mean, the Berserkers, probably the most famous type of Viking warriors, were considered to be Odin’s chosen warriors.

但在战斗中，我的意思是，狂战士可能是最著名的维京战士类型，被认为是奥丁选择的战士。

They would show no pain, and they’d just run at the enemy and attack with their nails and their teeth.

它们不会表现出任何痛苦，只是冲向敌人，用指甲和牙齿攻击。

53:36 Even if they could have their arms hacked off, they would still keep going.

即使双臂被砍掉，他们也会继续前行。

Like they would just…

就像他们只会……

And they would attack other Vikings.

他们会攻击其他维京人。

They were berserk.

他们很狂暴。

That’s where we get the word from.

这就是我们得到这个词的地方。

What do we understand the mindset leads to that?

我们理解什么心态会导致这种情况？

53:45 I mean, it wasn’t religious in nature.

我的意思是，它本质上不是宗教。

There’s not this kinda ideology.

不存在这种意识形态。

It’s just the way of life and then the prized honor and intensity in battle.

这只是生活方式，以及战斗中珍贵的荣誉和强度。

Yeah.

是的。

54:00 I mean, one of Odin’s names is the raven feeder.

我的意思是，奥丁的名字之一是乌鸦喂食者。

I mean, you were, by creating corpses, which ravens feed on, you are, you’re doing the work of Odin.

我的意思是，你创造了乌鸦以尸体为食的尸体，你正在做奥丁的工作。

And, you know, the Viking view of the afterlife was unique.

而且，你知道，维京人对来世的看法是独一无二的。

There weren’t really punishments, not really, for doing bad things.

做坏事并没有真正的惩罚，没有真正的惩罚。

Unless you did something really bad.

除非你做了一些非常糟糕的事情。

Then you ended up as basically an evil spirit haunting your grave.

然后你基本上就变成了一个在你的坟墓里出没的恶灵。

But if you were brave, then you got taken to the house of the dead, which is Valhalla to…

但如果你很勇敢，那么你就会被带到死者之家，那就是瓦尔哈拉……

And you were resurrected.

而你又复活了。

Every day you would fight, and whatever wounds you got would be magically healed that night.

每天你们都会战斗，无论你们受了什么伤，那天晚上就会神奇地痊愈。

And then the next morning you’d get up and do it again.

然后第二天早上你会起床再做一次。

So you’re essentially practicing for Ragnarok- …

所以你本质上是在为《诸神黄昏》练习——……

the final battle, which you would lose.

最后的战斗，你会输掉。

So I’m not sure.

所以我不确定。

It seems, it’s rather pessimistic.

看来，还是比较悲观的。

The battle’s what…

战斗是什么……

54:57 I mean, it sounds like losing is not a thing.

我的意思是，听起来输球并不是什么问题。

The battle itself is what matters.

战斗本身才是最重要的。

So Valhalla…

所以瓦尔哈拉……

It’s a place where you fight a battle every day.

这是一个你每天都在战斗的地方。

Every day.

每天。

Unlimited food, there’s like a boar or whatever.

无限量的食物，比如野猪什么的。

Yeah.

是的。

55:11 Yeah, that’s right.

是的，没错。

There’s unlimited wine.

有无限量的酒。

Yep.

是的。

And you can die as much as you want-

你可以随心所欲地死——

As much as you want, yeah.

只要你愿意，是的。

…

……

55:16 and you’ll be born again.

你就会重生。

Just like video games.

就像电子游戏一样。

And this is the idea of the highest…

这就是最高的想法……

55:17 This, I guess, if there’s such a thing as heaven in this kind of construction of the universe, this is heaven.

我想，如果在这样的宇宙构造中存在天堂这样的东西，那就是天堂了。

This is heaven, yeah.

这是天堂，是的。

This is the highest form.

这是最高形式。

55:28 This is the highest place you can go to: is Valhalla.

这是你可以去的最高的地方：瓦尔哈拉殿堂。

Is fight every day, eat as much as you want, drink as much as you want, die, and are reborn the next day.

就是天天打，吃饱喝足，死了，第二天又重生。

And this is forever, preparing yourself for the final battle of Ragnarok.

这是永远的，为诸神黄昏的最后一战做好准备。

Ragnarok.

仙境传说。

So this is where…

所以这就是……

55:48 this is the end of the world, this is the cataclysm.

这是世界末日，这是灾难。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

55:52 That’s right.

这是正确的。

Odin’s gonna die, Thor will die.

奥丁会死，托尔也会死。

He’ll get killed by one of Loki’s children, the Midgard Serpent.

他会被洛基的孩子之一米德加德巨蛇杀死。

Odin will be devoured by a wolf.

奥丁将被狼吞掉。

The sun and moon, which are being chased by monsters, by giants, will be caught and swallowed by the giants, plunging the world into eternal darkness.

被怪物、巨人追赶的太阳和月亮，将被巨人抓住并吞噬，让世界陷入永恒的黑暗。

Essentially all the gods will die and darkness and chaos will then ensue.

基本上所有的神都会死去，黑暗和混乱将会随之而来。

And then at the very end the…

然后在最后……

This is mostly from a guy named Snorri Sturluson who was living right at the end of the Viking Age and writing this.

这主要来自一个名叫斯诺里·斯图鲁森 (Snorri Sturluson) 的人，他生活在维京时代末期并撰写了这篇文章。

And he was, I believe, a Christian.

我相信他是一名基督徒。

So there’s…

所以有……

I think we’re fusing things here.

我认为我们正在融合这里的东西。

So then there would be a new Earth and a new heaven and a new god, who’s all powerful.

那么就会有一个新地球、一个新天堂和一个全能的新神。

Yeah, if you think of religion as a kind of technology, a social technology that stabilizes or helps guide the evolution of a society, it’s interesting to see what the Vikings came up with.

是的，如果你认为宗教是一种技术，一种稳定或帮助引导社会进化的社会技术，那么看看维京人的发明是很有趣的。

56:40 And do you ever think from a history, the grand view of history, how effective these different technologies of religion have been?

你有没有想过，从历史的角度，从宏观的历史角度来看，这些不同的宗教技术有多有效？

Yeah, I mean, I think that’s certainly…

是的，我的意思是，我认为这肯定是……

57:04 I’m thinking of the Viking rituals.

我想到了维京人的仪式。

Hospitality is very important in a northern climate where, you know, food is scarce, winters are long and harsh.

在北方气候下，热情好客非常重要，因为那里食物匮乏，冬季漫长而严酷。

And if you don’t share your hearth with, you know, someone knocking on your door, then someone else might not share it with you and you could be facing death.

如果你不与敲你门的人分享你的壁炉，那么其他人也可能不会与你分享，你可能会面临死亡。

So in this case hospitality becomes a core belief and- …

因此，在这种情况下，热情好客成为一种核心信念，并且——……

you know, the idea was that Odin would travel incognito, knocking on people’s doors, and he would remember if you let him in or not.

你知道，这个想法是奥丁会隐姓埋名地旅行，敲人们的门，他会记住你是否让他进来。

And if you were hospitable, he would bless you, and if you were inhospitable, he would murder you.

如果你热情好客，他就会祝福你，如果你不热情好客，他就会谋杀你。

And- …

还有——

you know, I think these rituals are obviously intended for, “How do we survive this winter?”

你知道，我认为这些仪式显然是为了“我们如何度过这个冬天？”

Yeah, how do we effectively spread the message that hospitality is pretty?

是的，我们如何有效地传播热情好客的信息？

57:52 good thing, and it’s characteristic of religion.

好事，这是宗教的特征。

If you do a good thing, you’ll be rewarded.

如果你做了一件好事，你就会得到回报。

If you do a bad thing, you’ll be punished.

如果你做了坏事，你就会受到惩罚。

And then different religions play the different ways of communicating that.

然后不同的宗教以不同的方式来传达这一点。

Yeah.

是的。

58:11 I mean, I think also religion gives you, it gives you a world view, right?

我的意思是，我认为宗教也给了你，它给了你世界观，对吗？

It gives you a morality and these are core parts of society.

它给你一种道德，这些是社会的核心部分。

And the beautiful thing about religion is it interplays with human nature and it guides humans.

宗教的美妙之处在于它与人性相互作用并指导人类。

58:24 But then of course, human nature and humans project themselves onto the religion, sometimes they use their religion.

但当然，人性和人类将自己投射到宗教上，有时他们使用他们的宗教。

It’s to accomplish goals in a pragmatic sense, in a political sense, in a geopolitical sense, in a military sense, in a social sense.

就是要实现务实意义上、政治意义上、地缘政治意义上、军事意义上、社会意义上的目标。

And so there’s that dance of how religion invigorates and guides the peoples, and then how the peoples use the religion to guide the direction of the world.

因此，就有了宗教如何激励和引导人民的舞蹈，以及人民如何利用宗教来引导世界的方向。

59:06 And that’s certainly the history of Christianity has a big role to play in the history of Europe, in the history of the Byzantine Empire and that part of the world.

毫无疑问，基督教的历史在欧洲的历史、拜占庭帝国的历史以及世界其他地区的历史中发挥着重要作用。

And it was an incredibly effective religion once Constantine converted.

一旦君士坦丁皈依，它就成为一种非常有效的宗教。

It spread extremely quickly, relatively speaking, across a couple of centuries.

相对而言，它的传播速度非常快，跨越了几个世纪。

Just to linger on the Viking views of the world and the afterlife.

只是为了留恋维京人对世界和来世的看法。

So we mentioned Valhalla.

所以我们提到了瓦尔哈拉。

There’s the Norns, which are the three spirits that represent the past, the present, and the necessity.

诺恩斯（Norns）是代表过去、现在和必然性的三种灵魂。

They spin the fates of all men and gods at the Roots of Yggdrasil.

他们在世界之树的根部旋转着所有人类和神的命运。

Yggdrasil.

世界树。

Yggdrasil.

世界树。

59:45 So there’s a notion of like determinism and fate to the Viking life.

因此，维京人的生活有一种类似决定论和命运的概念。

And there’s Valhalla, there’s Hel, Niflheim.

还有瓦尔哈拉、赫尔、尼福尔海姆。

This was the destination for the vast majority of people.

这是绝大多数人的目的地。

So if you don’t make it to Valhalla, this is where you go.

所以，如果你没能到达瓦尔哈拉，那就去这里吧。

That’s where you go.

那就是你要去的地方。

Unless you’re a real bad person, then there’s some punishment for the truly wicked.

除非你是一个真正的坏人，否则真正的恶人都会受到一些惩罚。

And we should point out that Hel, spelled with one L was a daughter of Loki- …

我们应该指出，拼写为“L”的赫尔是洛基的女儿——……

1:00:06 And was not the same as the…

并且与……不一样。

Hell with the two L’s.

两个L见鬼去吧。

Hell with the two L’s.

两个L见鬼去吧。

1:00:16 Very different.

非常不同。

It’s more like purgatory type of situation.

这更像是炼狱类型的情况。

Yeah, so it’s the house of the, it’s like the house of the dead, the house of the underworld.

是的，所以这就是死亡之屋，就像死亡之屋，地狱之屋。

A colorless twilight, not necessarily a place of punishment but simply the inevitable end for most, unless you end up in Valhalla, which means you’re a great warrior dying in battle.

无色的暮色，不一定是惩罚的地方，而只是大多数人不可避免的结局，除非你最终进入瓦尔哈拉，这意味着你是一位在战斗中死去的伟大战士。

It reminds me of the Greek view of the afterlife, right?

这让我想起了希腊人对来世的看法，对吗？

1:00:36 Where you essentially get amnesia and forget who you are unless someone makes a sacrifice and says your name, and only then you’ll remember it.

你基本上会失忆并忘记自己是谁，除非有人做出牺牲并说出你的名字，然后你才会记住它。

So your- your destiny is ultimately to just become gray and fade away.

所以你的——你的命运最终就是变成灰色并消失。

So you might as well- you might as well be brave.

所以你不妨——你不妨勇敢一点。

You might as well run at that spear.

你还不如跑向那根矛。

So that was the engine of their- the warrior culture that was core to their society.

这就是他们的引擎——武士文化是他们社会的核心。

I think probably.

我想可能是吧。

I have to ask about Vikings as explorers.

我不得不问一下维京人作为探险家的情况。

1:01:06 They were…

他们是……

truly one of the greatest explorers in history.

确实是历史上最伟大的探险家之一。

What can you say to, what is it in their spirit that motivated them?

你能对他们说什么？他们的精神是什么激励着他们？

I mean, they sailed, they reached North America 500 years before Columbus.

我的意思是，他们航行，比哥伦布早 500 年到达北美。

They sailed obviously to England, Spain, Italy, Russia, North Africa, the Middle East, Paris, and I’m just showing here a map of the ocean routes and the river systems that they connected to and sailed.

他们显然航行到了英国、西班牙、意大利、俄罗斯、北非、中东、巴黎，我只是在这里展示了他们所连接和航行的海洋路线和河流系统的地图。

What do you think drove them to explore the unknown?

您认为是什么驱使他们探索未知？

This boggles my mind.

这让我很困惑。

1:01:42 This, like this map here, just…

这，就像这里的地图一样，只是……

it messes with me because they didn’t have a compass.

这让我很困扰，因为他们没有指南针。

I mean, can you imagine shoving off from some fjord in Norway west?

我的意思是，你能想象从挪威西部的某个峡湾出发吗？

That’s your only—west.

那是你唯一的——西边。

And there was a Viking named Naddodd.

有一个维京人名叫纳多德。

He’s actually the first Norseman to reach Iceland, though it was a total accident.

他实际上是第一个到达冰岛的挪威人，尽管这完全是一次意外。

But here’s the, here’s the mind-blowing part.

但这是令人兴奋的部分。

He decides to land and explore, and he gets off and he sees two humans.

他决定着陆并探索，当他下车时，他看到了两个人。

They’re monks from Ireland.

他们是来自爱尔兰的修道士。

They got there in a canoe.

他们乘独木舟到达那里。

You look at Ireland, look at Iceland, that’s even more impressive.

你看看爱尔兰，看看冰岛，那更令人印象深刻。

They got in a canoe, a skin boat- …

他们坐上了独木舟，一艘皮船——……

and they just went north because they were trying to get away from the world.

他们只是向北走，因为他们想逃离这个世界。

1:02:26 They found Iceland, and in a very excellent move on their part, they ran away as soon as the Vikings arrived, which is, you know, pretty smart.

他们发现了冰岛，他们的举动非常出色，维京人一到达，他们就逃跑了，你知道，这是相当聪明的。

I don’t know if you know there’s this video of the deranged penguin with the Werner Herzog documentary, where Werner Herzog is like overdubbing, explaining the thinking of the penguin.

不知道你是否知道，有一段关于维尔纳·赫尔佐格纪录片中疯狂企鹅的视频，其中维尔纳·赫尔佐格就像配音一样，解释了企鹅的想法。

1:02:35 But the penguin leaves the tribe and he just goes out into the mountains.

但是企鹅离开了部落，他只是去了山里。

I have to show you this video.

我必须给你看这个视频。

This is my favorite video of all time.

这是我一直以来最喜欢的视频。

There’s this low-key documentary where they’re talking about penguins, and then there’s one penguin that leaves-

有一部低调的纪录片，他们在谈论企鹅，然后有一只企鹅离开了——

I’m out.

我出去了。

…

……

1:03:09 leaves the tribe and just goes towards the mountains, and as Werner Herzog says, “Towards certain death.” It always reminds me of this kind of Viking spirit or the- …

离开部落，走向山区，正如沃纳·赫尔佐格所说，“走向必死无疑”。它总是让我想起这种维京精神或者——……

or the monk spirit.

或和尚精神。

There’s something—one human or a small group of humans just decide to go.

有件事——一个人或一小群人决定去。

Just go, yeah.

就走吧，是的。

And not look back.

并且不回头。

Are there sea monsters out there?

那里有海怪吗？

1:03:30 Maybe.

或许。

Maybe.

或许。

Is there any land?

有土地吗？

1:03:32 Are we gonna fall off the edge of the earth?

我们会从地球边缘掉下来吗？

Maybe.

或许。

I-

我-

And just as Werner Herzog says, you know, “There’s certain death.” Now, he doesn’t romanticize it.

正如沃纳·赫尔佐格所说，“死亡是必然的”。现在，他并没有将其浪漫化。

1:03:35 He says the penguin is just deranged and crazy.

他说这只企鹅精神错乱而且疯狂。

But look, the penguin did look back briefly.

但你看，企鹅确实短暂地回头看了一眼。

Right.

正确的。

He did think about this.

他确实考虑过这一点。

1:03:48 So this- …

所以这——……

there’s multiple ways, but you just highlighted two ways to explore.

有多种方法，但您只是强调了两种探索方法。

One is ’cause you’re this hardcore dude that just is looking to raid and just goes and goes and just you have the resilience and the will- …

其一是因为你是一个铁杆家伙，只是想进行突袭，然后就走啊走，只是你有韧性和意志——……

to keep going.

继续前进。

And then there’s the monks that just want to leave.

然后还有那些只想离开的僧侣。

Escape, yeah.

逃跑，是的。

1:04:15 Yeah.

是的。

They just go toward the, they want to leave far away- …

他们只是走向，他们要离开很远——……

1:04:16 so they could be closer to God.

这样他们就可以更接近上帝。

They could be closer to themselves and to-

他们可以更接近自己并且更接近——

And away from sin.

并远离罪恶。

1:04:23 Yeah.

是的。

You know, there’s this poem by Tennyson, “Ulysses,” my favorite poem.

你知道，丁尼生有一首诗，《尤利西斯》，我最喜欢的诗。

I think it captures the Viking spirit.

我认为它抓住了维京人的精神。

The last line of it is “to strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.” I think that’s very much like the Viking, you know, “My purpose holds, to sail beyond the baths of all the western stars until I die.” You may die, but I’m gonna do this, and I’m not gonna yield.

最后一句是“努力、寻求、发现、不屈服”。我认为这很像维京人，你知道，“我的目标是，航行到所有西方星星的浴场之外，直到我死去。”你可能会死，但我会这么做，而且我不会屈服。

That spirit is one of my favorite aspects of human beings.

这种精神是我最喜欢的人类方面之一。

I think that’s why the Vikings remain so popular today, you know?

我认为这就是维京人至今仍然如此受欢迎的原因，你知道吗？

1:04:50 We name our satellites, our football teams, you know, our cruise ships.

我们给我们的卫星、我们的足球队、我们的游轮命名。

There’s this like, there’s this romantic hook- …

就像这样，有一个浪漫的钩子——……

of a people who did not yield.

一个不屈服的民族。

Yeah, they embodied the part, the flame that burns in all of us that we admire most about human beings.

是的，他们体现了我们最钦佩的人类身上燃烧的火焰。

1:05:05 It’s that, like, unyielding focus on going out there, of taking a leap into the unknown, into the scary, and never stopping.

就好像，坚定不移地专注于走出去，跳进未知的世界，进入可怕的世界，永不停歇。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

That.

那。

It’s not too late to seek a newer world.

寻求新世界还为时不晚。

I have to ask you about, speaking of a newer world, America.

我必须问你关于一个新世界的问题，美国。

Yes.

是的。

And Leif Ericson.

还有莱夫·埃里克森。

1:05:36 But first, a quick bathroom break if it’s okay.

但首先，如果可以的话，先去趟洗手间。

Quick 30-second thank you to our sponsors.

用 30 秒的时间快速感谢我们的赞助商。

Check them out in the description.

在描述中查看它们。

It really is the best way to support this podcast.

这确实是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

Go to lexfridman.com/sponsors.

请访问 lexfridman.com/sponsors。

We got Larridin for measuring AI adoption in your business, BetterHelp for mental health, LMNT for electrolytes, Fin for customer service AI agents, Shopify for selling stuff online, and Perplexity for curiosity-driven knowledge exploration.

我们有 Larridin 来衡量您企业中人工智能的采用情况，BetterHelp 适合心理健康，LMNT 适合电解质，Fin 适合客户服务人工智能代理，Shopify 适合在线销售，Perplexity 适合好奇心驱动的知识探索。

Choose wisely, my friends.

明智地选择，我的朋友们。

And now, back to my conversation with Lars Brownworth.

现在，回到我与拉斯·布朗沃斯的谈话。

All right, we’re back.

好吧，我们回来了。

1:06:15 Let’s talk about this incredible fact of the Vikings, that Leif Ericson, who was a Viking explorer, was the first European to reach North America around the year 1000, five centuries before Columbus reached North America.

让我们来谈谈维京人这个令人难以置信的事实，维京探险家莱夫·埃里克森 (Leif Ericson) 是第一个在 1000 年左右到达北美的欧洲人，比哥伦布到达北美早了五个世纪。

Tell the story of his journey.

讲述他的旅程故事。

What do we know about him?

我们对他了解多少？

So let’s begin with his dad.

那么我们就从他的父亲开始吧。

1:06:35 His dad’s name is Erik the Red, who was forced to flee Norway when he was probably 10 years old because his dad had killed some people.

他父亲的名字叫埃里克·红（Erik the Red），他大概在 10 岁的时候就因为父亲杀了一些人而被迫逃离挪威。

It’s kind of hilarious.

这有点搞笑。

In the saga it says, “For a few killings…” Okay, I guess that’s a thing.

在传说中，它说，“为了一些杀戮……”好吧，我想这是一件事。

So he went to Iceland and he got a farm in Iceland which was already starting to become overpopulated.

所以他去了冰岛，并在冰岛找到了一个农场，那里已经开始人口过剩。

They had cut down all the trees.

他们砍倒了所有的树。

There were some climate problems of deforestation and farms just blowing away, so the population was essentially beginning to crash in Iceland.

由于森林砍伐和农场被风吹走等气候问题，冰岛的人口基本上开始锐减。

And he got into a fight with his neighbor and ended up killing his neighbor, and so he was exiled from Iceland.

他与邻居打架，最终杀死了邻居，因此他被冰岛流放。

He was exiled from the place his father had been exiled from.

他被从他父亲被流放的地方流放。

So it runs in the family, this whole outlaw thing.

所以它在家庭中流传，这整个不法之徒的事情。

What also ran in the family apparently was this streak, this courageous streak.

显然，这个家族也传承着这种勇敢的性格。

1:07:29 And he had heard that there had been people…

而且他听说有人……

So the Norwegian Vikings, they were aiming for England, and they hit the Hebrides, which are these kind of treeless islands above Scotland, and they found they were good for refueling ’cause they’d pick up water or whatever, and then on your way to Scotland to raid.

因此，挪威维京人的目标是英格兰，他们袭击了赫布里底群岛，这是苏格兰上方没有树木的岛屿，他们发现它们很适合加油，因为它们会收集水或其他东西，然后在前往苏格兰的途中进行袭击。

And then a Viking had missed the Hebrides and discovered Iceland, and then another Viking had aimed for Iceland, missed, and hit Greenland.

然后一个维京人错过了赫布里底群岛并发现了冰岛，然后另一个维京人瞄准了冰岛，错过了，并到达了格陵兰岛。

And a little fun fact about Greenland, it is both north, south, east, and west of Iceland.

关于格陵兰岛的一个有趣的事实是，它位于冰岛的北部、南部、东部和西部。

So it’s any direction, you’re gonna hit Greenland.

所以无论哪个方向，你都会到达格陵兰岛。

So Greenland is hard to miss.

所以格陵兰岛是不容错过的。

It’s hard to miss, which is not to take away anything from the extraordinary danger, the certain death of going further west.

很难忽视这一点，但这并不能消除任何异常危险，继续向西行进必死无疑。

1:08:15 But there was this…

但有这个……

By this time, there was this idea that, you know, enough people had become famous by sailing west into the unknown and discovering things, that I think there was a general idea of there’s more out there to the west.

到了这个时候，人们有了这样的想法，你知道，有足够多的人通过向西航行进入未知世界并发现事物而出名，我认为人们普遍认为西方还有更多东西。

And so he had talked to someone who had seen Greenland and reported that there was this good land further west.

所以他和一个见过格陵兰岛的人交谈过，并报告说在更西边还有这片美好的土地。

And so he hired the ship’s crew of that Viking.

于是他雇佣了那艘维京人的船员。

So it’s kind of the deck was loaded, and he went to Greenland where he was able to settle two different colonies.

所以他的筹码已经准备好了，他去了格陵兰岛，在那里他能够定居两个不同的殖民地。

One was called the Western Settlement in the west, and one was called the Eastern Settlement in essentially the extreme south.

一种在西部称为“西租界”，一种在最南端称为“东租界”。

1:08:59 And that was essentially the edges of where Viking technology could be.

这基本上就是维京技术可能达到的边缘。

A cool factoid is that the Vikings practiced husbandry, raised animals, and obviously this is not an option in Greenland, although they couldn’t have known it at the time.

一个很酷的事实是，维京人从事畜牧业，饲养动物，显然这在格陵兰岛不是一个选择，尽管他们当时可能不知道。

But they brought plants with them.

但他们带来了植物。

So, and then they were able to trade with the native Inuit for walrus blubber and things like that, and they made a go of it.

所以，然后他们能够与当地因纽特人交易海象鲸脂之类的东西，他们成功了。

But what’s obvious, you know, anyone who’s seen Greenland, there are no trees.

但显而易见的是，任何见过格陵兰岛的人都会发现那里没有树木。

It’s almost impossible to survive by practicing husbandry.

靠从事畜牧业来生存几乎是不可能的。

It is impossible to survive, as it turns out, just practicing husbandry.

事实证明，仅仅从事畜牧业是不可能生存的。

And by this point, I think this extraordinary Viking pragmatism is beginning to be played out.

至此，我认为这种非凡的维京实用主义已经开始发挥作用。

1:09:46 Because one of the reasons the Greenland experiment fails ultimately in 300 years is they fail to adapt.

因为格陵兰实验300年后最终失败的原因之一就是他们无法适应。

It’s clearly they should, they should focus more on fishing, on other sources than, than just raising pigs and cows.

显然他们应该，他们应该更多地关注渔业和其他来源，而不仅仅是饲养猪和牛。

But-

但是——

Oh, so we hit the limit of the Viking adaptability which they have demonstrated throughout the world, I’d say.

哦，所以我们已经达到了维京人适应性的极限，他们已经在世界各地展示了这一点，我想说。

1:10:07 Interesting.

有趣的。

So Erik the Red is this, he makes his name by exploring, and he does in fact, once he discovers Greenland, he calls it green.

红色埃里克就是这样，他通过探索而出名，事实上，一旦他发现了格陵兰岛，他就把它称为绿色。

1:10:15 He says there’s so many salmon in the rivers of, in the fjords that you can just scoop them out with your hands.

他说河流里、峡湾里有很多鲑鱼，你用手就能把它们捞出来。

You don’t even have to fish.

你甚至不必钓鱼。

Was this real?

这是真的吗？

It’s a lie.

这是一个谎言。

Okay.

好的。

That’s not true at all.

这根本不是真的。

So he’s doing propaganda.

所以他是在做宣传。

He’s doing propaganda.

他正在做宣传。

So is that…

原来如此……

1:10:37 Is this story true that he called it green just so he can attract-

这个故事是真的吗，他称其为绿色只是为了吸引-

It is.

是的。

So-

所以——

The greatest real estate scam in history.

史上最大的房地产骗局。

1:10:41 Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Okay.

好的。

1:10:46 Genius.

天才。

I mean, just stuck to this day.

我的意思是，直到今天。

Yeah.

是的。

1:10:50 It’s the most misnamed place in the world.

这是世界上名字最错误的地方。

But in the Europe of the time, even in Iceland, the dream was to have land.

但在当时的欧洲，甚至在冰岛，梦想都是拥有土地。

I mean, land equaled wealth in Europe.

我的意思是，在欧洲，土地等于财富。

And here he says there’s enough land for the taking, like anyone who wants it, which is true.

在这里，他说有足够的土地可供征用，就像任何想要它的人一样，这是事实。

It’s the largest island on earth.

它是地球上最大的岛屿。

I mean, it’s unusable, but it should be called Iceland, Glacier Land or something.

我的意思是，它无法使用，但它应该被称为冰岛，冰川之地或其他什么。

But it worked.

但它奏效了。

He took 500 men with him from Iceland.

他从冰岛带来了 500 名士兵。

It’s gotta be a significant chunk of the population, but there’s enough people, kind of land hungry, there’s no more room in Iceland.

这肯定占人口的很大一部分，但人口足够多，土地又匮乏，冰岛已经没有更多的空间了。

It’s too restrictive.

这太受限制了。

We’re gonna go further west.

我们还要继续向西走。

So he takes 25 ships and then 14 make it, which is pretty good.

所以他拿了 25 艘船，然后 14 艘成功了，这非常好。

And then those 14 ships with their 300 or so people start the western colony.

然后这14艘船带着大约300人开始西部殖民地。

1:11:46 And then word gets back to Norway, but Norway’s 2,000 miles away, 2,000-plus miles away.

然后消息传回挪威，但挪威在 2,000 英里之外，2,000 多英里之外。

So it’s, you know, contact…

所以，你知道，联系……

They’re having to get resupplied.

他们必须得到补给。

Obviously in the first winter, all their cattle die.

显然在第一个冬天，他们所有的牛都死了。

That’s not a great, that’s not a great start for people who practice husbandry.

对于从事畜牧业的人来说，这不是一个好的开始。

So they’ve got to get resupplied from Norway, but, you know, the chances of making it to Norway and back are actually not that great if you’re sailing without a compass.

所以他们必须从挪威获得补给，但是，你知道，如果你在没有指南针的情况下航行，到达挪威并返回的机会实际上并不那么大。

You’re just kind of hoping.

你只是有点希望。

But they do it.

但他们做到了。

They do it.

他们做到了。

And the colonies survive until the 1400s where they just go silent.

这些殖民地一直生存到了 1400 年代，然后就陷入了沉默。

So let’s talk about Erik the Red’s son, Leif Ericson.

让我们来谈谈红发埃里克的儿子莱夫·埃里克森。

1:12:20 How does the journey continue west?

旅程如何继续向西？

So Erik is getting a little older.

所以埃里克年纪有点大了。

1:12:28 The Greenland settlements are becoming filled up.

格陵兰岛的定居点正在被填满。

Erik is happy where he is.

埃里克很高兴他现在的处境。

He’s been kicked out of enough places.

他已经被踢出了足够多的地方了。

He’s made his home here, and this is where he wants to be.

他在这里安了家，这就是他想去的地方。

But his son…

但他的儿子……

They’re running out of resources.

他们的资源即将耗尽。

There’s no wood.

没有木头。

You know, there’s limited food, et cetera, et cetera.

你知道，食物有限等等。

And so his son proposes going west because he’s heard stories that there are other lands.

所以他的儿子提议去西部，因为他听说有其他土地的故事。

So another Viking had gotten lost, aimed for Greenland and missed, and had seen something.

所以另一个维京人迷路了，瞄准了格陵兰岛，但错过了，并且看到了一些东西。

He said he saw clouds and mountains and there’s land there.

他说他看到了云彩和山脉，那里还有陆地。

And then he had turned around.

然后他转过身来。

And Leif again did the same thing, he hired the man’s crew.

莱夫又做了同样的事情，他雇佣了这个人的船员。

1:13:07 He asked his dad to come, his dad wouldn’t.

他让他爸爸来，他爸爸不肯。

He went with his half sister Freydis, who was a whole nother story by herself, and a bunch of other colonists, and they went, and they landed in a place.

他和他同父异母的妹妹弗雷迪斯（Freydis）一起去了，弗雷迪斯独自一人就完全是另一个故事了，还有一群其他殖民者，他们去了，然后降落在一个地方。

He called it Vinland because he found things that he could ferment.

他称其为文兰（Vinland），因为他发现了可以发酵的东西。

So, of course, the Vikings, they made wine, or a wine-like alcohol.

所以，当然，维京人，他们酿造葡萄酒，或者类似葡萄酒的酒精。

So Leif Ericsson is, he’s landed.

莱夫·埃里克森就是这样，他已经登陆了。

He doesn’t know this, but he’s landed on a new continent with essentially inexhaustible stores of food and timber and everything he needs.

他不知道这一点，但他登陆了一个新大陆，那里有取之不尽的食物和木材以及他需要的一切。

It’s the perfect place.

这是一个完美的地方。

Unfortunately for him, it’s also inhabited by some natives, probably the Algonquin tribe.

对他来说不幸的是，这里也居住着一些当地人，可能是阿尔冈昆部落。

He calls them the Skraelings, which is just Norse for screechers because he can’t understand their language.

他称他们为 Skraelings，这只是挪威语中尖叫者的意思，因为他听不懂他们的语言。

1:13:57 They just yell at them and attack immediately.

他们只是对他们大喊大叫，然后立即攻击。

They stay there for three years and then give up and go back home.

他们在那里呆了三年，然后放弃并回家。

So ultimately, it…

所以最终，它……

and then really don’t tell anyone about it.

然后真的不要告诉任何人。

They just keep it in their northern sagas.

他们只是将其保留在北方传奇中。

Why do you think they left?

你认为他们为什么离开？

1:14:11 Why do you think they didn’t stick around longer?

你认为他们为什么没有坚持更长时间？

I think there are a number of things working against them.

我认为有很多因素对他们不利。

1:14:15 Of course, I would like to believe there’s an alternate history where the Vikings successfully make it down, you know, maybe down to Maryland or something, and there’s an alternate history of the US and Canada here, but I think there’s a number of things working against them.

当然，我愿意相信维京人成功地征服了另一段历史，你知道，也许是马里兰州或其他地方，这里还有美国和加拿大的另一段历史，但我认为有很多因素对他们不利。

The first is they stubbornly refused to give up husbandry, so they’re trying to make this work.

首先，他们顽固地拒绝放弃畜牧业，所以他们正在努力让这项工作发挥作用。

L’Anse aux Meadows I think is where they were, in Newfoundland.

我认为 L'Anse aux Meadows 就是他们所在的地方，在纽芬兰。

It doesn’t work.

这不起作用。

The climate’s too cold.

气候太冷了。

It’s not even—the grasses aren’t appropriate, you know, it’s just not gonna work and they do not adapt, number one.

甚至，草不合适，你知道，它只是行不通，而且它们不适应，第一。

1:14:51 Number two, they’re 2,000-plus miles away from Norway and getting resupplied, and although they are extremely good sailors and explorers and traders, I think this is a little too far.

第二，他们距离挪威 2000 多英里，需要补给，虽然他们是非常优秀的水手、探险家和贸易商，但我认为这有点太远了。

And then thirdly is the native resistance.

第三是本土抵抗力。

It’s just too incessant.

这实在是太无休无止了。

They are, they are outnumbered, you know, millions to one.

他们的数量比你知道，是数百万比一。

And the Algonquin do not want them there.

阿尔冈昆人不希望他们在那里。

It’s clear, and they’re not gonna stop attacking.

很明显，他们不会停止攻击。

It’s so fascinating because they really didn’t understand the full scale of the land they’ve encountered, right?

这太令人着迷了，因为他们真的不了解他们所遇到的土地的全部规模，对吗？

That’s right.

这是正确的。

1:15:25 That’s right.

这是正确的。

I mean, had they known, had he known- …

我的意思是，如果他们知道的话，如果他知道的话——……

what he had found-

他发现了什么——

That there’s more south.

还有更多的南方。

1:15:30 Maybe they, their intuition-

也许他们，他们的直觉——

That’s right

没错

…

……

1:15:33 was like there’s not…

就好像没有……

it’s just all northern land, it’s void of resources.

这只是北方土地，缺乏资源。

We can’t do the whole husbandry thing.

我们不能包揽整个畜牧业的事情。

But you would think they could go down the coast.

但你可能会认为他们可以沿着海岸走。

I mean, if they could have gotten enough people from Norway, you know, or Iceland or whatever, you know, a sizable enough colony, and build some kind of defenses to fight off the incessant attacks- …

我的意思是，如果他们能够从挪威、冰岛或其他地方获得足够多的人，你知道，一个足够大的殖民地，并建立某种防御设施来抵御不断的攻击——……

1:15:46 then I think that’s the difference there, ’cause there certainly the resources are all there.

那么我认为这就是差异所在，因为资源当然都在那里。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

1:16:02 Or just keep staying in the water, keep going down the coast- …

或者继续待在水里，继续沿着海岸走——……

not necessarily camp out until, until you get further south.

不一定要露营，直到，直到你进一步向南。

It is fascinating to think about that alternate history where they would have discovered America and settled there.

想想他们发现美洲并在那里定居的另一段历史是很有趣的。

So this is 500 years before Columbus.

所以这比哥伦布早 500 年。

There’s…

有……

first of all, they could have done a lot of the stuff we think about the European nations doing, including brutality towards the natives.

首先，他们本可以做很多我们认为欧洲国家所做的事情，包括对当地人的残酷对待。

But there could have been a coexistence also, and some of the diseases that come with them could have done the damage that they did 500 years later.

但它们也可能共存，并且随之而来的一些疾病可能造成了 500 年后的损害。

But now, it would have stabilized the populations to where the Europeans, the French, the Spanish, and so on who come, the natives would be more ready.

但现在，它可以稳定人口，欧洲人、法国人、西班牙人等到来时，当地人会做好更充分的准备。

So they would…

所以他们会……

1:16:55 Europe would then encounter a sizable population of the Viking descendants and the natives to where the, the two could hold onto the land and bring a different kind of civilization there.

然后，欧洲将遇到大量的维京人后裔和当地人，两者可以保住这片土地，并在那里带来一种不同的文明。

Because ultimately Europe, with the European ways, of the Western civilization, expanded out into North America, but there could be this whole Scandinavian vibe- …

因为最终欧洲，以欧洲方式，西方文明，扩展到北美，但可能会有整个斯堪的纳维亚氛围——……

that would have taken over.

那将会接管。

Just a hair’s breadth.

只是一根头发丝的宽度。

1:17:22 My favorite museum in New York is called The Cloisters.

我在纽约最喜欢的博物馆是回廊博物馆。

It’s part of the Met, and in the Cloisters, there’s an ivory cross.

它是大都会艺术博物馆的一部分，在回廊里有一个象牙十字架。

And the ivory cross has been richly carved with Christian scenes.

象牙十字架上雕刻着丰富的基督教场景。

It was carved in England, but it’s made of walrus ivory, and they got it from the New World.

它是在英国雕刻的，但它是由海象牙制成的，他们是从新世界获得的。

And the Viking, you know, Viking traders.

还有维京人，你知道，维京商人。

It represents, you know, the great arc of the northern trade.

你知道，它代表了北方贸易的伟大弧线。

So it’s walrus ivory from the New World via Norway to England to New York.

所以这是从新世界经挪威到英国再到纽约的海象牙。

It’s a great symbol of that trade.

这是该行业的一个伟大象征。

This whole just period of thousands of years of exploration that we no longer can do, so it’s kind of geographic exploration of the world, is fascinating.

这整个数千年的探索时期我们已经无法再进行了，所以这是对世界的地理探索，是令人着迷的。

1:18:04 It takes true courage.

这需要真正的勇气。

It takes true wonder.

这需要真正的奇迹。

The kind of exploration we could do now is more in the scientific realm and the realm of ideas and then maybe in terms of geography out into space and exploring the universe.

我们现在可以做的探索更多的是在科学领域和思想领域，然后可能是在地理方面进入太空和探索宇宙。

Yeah, I think the closest analog is probably Mars, right?

是的，我认为最接近的类似物可能是火星，对吗？

1:18:32 I mean, what would it take for you to be like, “All right, I’m gonna leave and I’m gonna go to Mars”?

我的意思是，你怎样才能说：“好吧，我要离开，我要去火星”？

You’re never coming back.

你永远不会回来。

There’s nothing there as far as you know.

据你所知，那里什么也没有。

You know, all the accoutrements of civilization are not there.

你知道，文明的所有装备都不在那里。

That’s the kind of courage you would have taken.

这就是你应该采取的勇气。

Yeah, but there’s, on top of that, with Greenland, with Iceland, with Finland, there’s just so much uncertainty, like literally what’s beyond this hill.

是的，但除此之外，格陵兰岛、冰岛、芬兰都存在很多不确定性，就像这座山那边的情况一样。

1:18:49 So with Mars, everything is mapped.

所以对于火星来说，一切都被绘制出来了。

So it’s really you understand the full harshness of the situation.

所以你确实了解情况的严重性。

Of what you’re gonna face, yeah.

你将要面对的，是的。

So it’s more, that’s more akin to like, all right, I’m running an ultra-marathon.

所以这更像是，好吧，我正在跑一场超级马拉松。

1:19:07 I understand the challenge.

我理解这个挑战。

I think more akin would be like traveling out into like the Oort cloud, beyond the solar system.

我认为更类似于旅行到太阳系之外的奥尔特云。

What’s scarier, the known or the unknown?

已知的和未知的哪个更可怕？

I think that deeply, the human nature pulls us towards the unknown.

我认为，人性深深地将我们拉向未知。

No, it’s true.

不，这是真的。

1:19:30 Yeah.

是的。

All right.

好的。

1:19:31 Speaking of which, going to the East.

说到这里，就要去东方了。

So like we mentioned, the Vikings really went all over.

正如我们提到的，维京人真的彻底失败了。

And one of the directions they went that ended up touching the Byzantine Empire in Constantinople, is they went East.

他们最终接触君士坦丁堡拜占庭帝国的方向之一是向东行进。

What can you say about the 8th century journey East in the river networks that the Vikings did, the Swedish Vikings, the Varangians, as they began to explore the river systems of Russia?

对于 8 世纪维京人、瑞典维京人、瓦兰吉人开始探索俄罗斯河流系统时沿着河流网络向东航行，您有何评价？

So this was the most surprising part for me when I was first thinking about writing the book and, you know, discovering where the Vikings went.

因此，当我第一次考虑写这本书并发现维京人去了哪里时，这是最令我惊讶的部分。

1:20:02 I never…

我从来没有……

In a million years, it would’ve never occurred to me that the Vikings went East.

一百万年里，我绝不会想到维京人会向东迁移。

But a good way to think of this is the Vikings launched themselves in whatever direction their country is facing.

但思考这一点的一个好方法是，维京人向他们的国家面临的任何方向发起进攻。

So Sweden goes to the East, Denmark goes down toward Germany, and Norway goes England and the New World.

因此，瑞典走向东方，丹麦走向德国，挪威走向英格兰和新世界。

So there’s a Viking named Rorik who goes East and manages to set up an encampment on this lake called Staraya Ladoga.

有一个名叫罗里克（Rorik）的维京人向东航行，并设法在这个叫做斯塔拉亚拉多加（Staraya Ladoga）的湖上建立了一个营地。

Which is a launchpad to both the Volga River and the Dnieper River.

这是伏尔加河和第聂伯河的发射台。

Yeah, and these are major river systems in the East that take you all the way down to the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea.

是的，这些是东部的主要河流系统，一直延伸到黑海和里海。

1:20:46 Because the Vikings, you know, such sea-born people, they can sail up rivers.

因为维京人，你知道，这些出生在海上的人，他们可以沿着河流航行。

This allows them access to the caliphates in the East and to the Byzantine Empire, where they, being Vikings, immediately decide to attack the city.

这使他们能够接触东方的哈里发国和拜占庭帝国，作为维京人，他们立即决定攻击这座城市。

The Byzantines essentially set the Sea of Marmara outside of Constantinople on fire- …

拜占庭人基本上放火烧毁了君士坦丁堡郊外的马尔马拉海——……

and burn up all the Viking ships.

并烧毁所有维京船只。

So then the Vikings decide, “Okay, we can’t, we can’t take Constantinople, so we might as well join ’em if we can’t beat ’em.” And they end up as probably the most famous guard in Byzantine history, the Varangian Guard.

于是维京人决定，“好吧，我们不能，我们不能占领君士坦丁堡，所以如果我们不能打败他们，我们不妨加入他们。”他们最终可能成为拜占庭历史上最著名的卫兵——瓦兰吉卫队。

Varangian means the men of the oath.

瓦兰吉安的意思是宣誓的人。

1:21:35 Or the men who’ve sworn an oath.

或者那些宣誓的人。

This is kind of an analog of the Praetorian Guard in Ancient Rome.

这有点类似于古罗马的禁卫军。

They were famously loyal to the throne, but not necessarily to the person sitting on the throne.

他们对王位的忠诚是出了名的，但不一定是对坐在王位上的人的忠诚。

They’re major power players.

他们是主要的权力参与者。

The last of the great Byzantine emperors, Basil the Bulgar-Slayer forms them in the late 900s.

最后一位伟大的拜占庭皇帝是保加利亚杀手巴西尔，他于 900 年代末建立了它们。

And they’re there with the history all the way up until the end of it.

他们一直伴随着历史，直到历史结束。

In fact, many of our famous Vikings, Harald Hardrada, serve in the Varangian Guard.

事实上，我们许多著名的维京人哈拉尔德·哈德拉达（Harald Hardrada）都在瓦兰吉卫队服役。

If you go to Constantinople today, inside the Church of the Hagia Sophia, on the second floor there’s a marble balcony, and on the railings, you can find Norse runes that are carved in by Varangian Guards who were bored during a particularly long sermon, in a language they didn’t understand, but they had to stand there.

如果你今天去君士坦丁堡，在圣索菲亚教堂里面，二楼有一个大理石阳台，栏杆上可以找到北欧符文，是瓦兰吉卫兵在一次特别长的布道中感到无聊时用一种他们听不懂的语言刻下的，但他们不得不站在那里。

So, that’s a fascinating thing, which is the Varangian Guard, guarding the emperor of the East Roman Empire, is made up initially, for quite a bit of time, of Vikings.

所以，这是一件令人着迷的事情，这就是守护东罗马帝国皇帝的瓦兰吉卫队，最初很长一段时间都是由维京人组成的。

Yeah.

是的。

1:22:42 Yeah.

是的。

I mean, like speaking of pragmatic, they just integrate into everything.

我的意思是，就像说到实用一样，它们只是融入到一切中。

1:22:44 Now eventually, the Varangian Guard became less and less Viking over time.

随着时间的推移，瓦兰吉卫队最终变得越来越不像维京人。

1:22:56 But this whole…

但这整个……

You fast-forwarded the story, we should mention that Staraya Ladoga in 753 AD is when it was established, opening the connection to the two rivers, and they began trading on the rivers and establishing more stable states along the rivers, including the Kievan Rus in 862, 882, where the Varangians, so it’s the Swedish Vikings, they took Novgorod, they took Kiev, and they established the Kievan Rus there.

你快进故事，我们应该提到的是，旧拉多加在公元753年建立，打开了两条河流的连接，他们开始在河流上进行贸易，并在河流沿岸建立了更稳定的国家，包括862年、882年的基辅罗斯，瓦兰吉人，所以是瑞典维京人，他们占领了诺夫哥罗德，他们占领了基辅，他们在那里建立了基辅罗斯。

And that is what led to the connection to the Byzantine Empire, where they started to…

这就是与拜占庭帝国建立联系的原因，他们开始……

Again, the Vikings went from being Vikings.

维京人再次从维京人变成了维京人。

They go through this process of trading and then establishing a state, now they’re doing treaties of different kinds, and they’re also waging or trying to wage war.

他们经历了贸易、然后建立国家的过程，现在他们正在签订各种条约，他们也正在发动或试图发动战争。

1:23:51 And going all the way to Constantinople, and having a deep admiration for Constantinople enough to then begin to dream of sacking Constantinople.

一路来到君士坦丁堡，对君士坦丁堡产生了深深的钦佩，以至于开始梦想着洗劫君士坦丁堡。

Yeah.

是的。

1:24:03 I mean, once they’re alerted to the wealth that’s there, you know, Vikings being Vikings, they show up.

我的意思是，一旦他们意识到那里的财富，你知道，维京人就是维京人，他们就会出现。

Can you speak to the Greek Fire?

你能和希腊之火谈谈吗？

1:24:10 So this was 941 and 944 when they tried, and then Greek Fire was this technology developed by the Romans.

所以这是他们尝试的时候是941年和944年，然后希腊火就是罗马人开发的这个技术。

We don’t really know what it was, Greek Fire.

我们真的不知道那是什么，希腊之火。

1:24:23 It was a form of napalm, obviously.

显然，这是凝固汽油弹的一种。

We have the ingredients what made it up, naphtha and oil and things like that.

我们有组成它的成分，石脑油和石油之类的东西。

But it was this very flammable material that would ignite on contact.

但这种非常易燃的材料一旦接触就会点燃。

So the Byzantines would fill it into clay pots and then throw the clay pots.

所以拜占庭人会把它装进陶罐里，然后把陶罐扔掉。

As soon as it’s exposed to oxygen, it would start burning.

一旦接触到氧气，它就会开始燃烧。

They also had siphons.

他们也有虹吸管。

They would carry, like, flamethrowers on their back and they would just spray it at enemies.

他们会背着火焰喷射器，然后将其喷射到敌人身上。

And the- the real devious thing about it is that if you launch this clay pot at a ship and the material, you know, pooled across the wood and then dripped off into the water, being oil, it would float on top of the water and continue to burn.

真正狡猾的事情是，如果你向船上发射这个陶罐，你知道，材料会聚集在木头上，然后滴入水中，成为油，它会漂浮在水面上并继续燃烧。

1:25:07 So that if you were a sailor and you jumped off the ship ’cause it’s on fire and jumped into this oil patch that’s on fire, you’d be coated with it and you’d burn underneath the water.

因此，如果你是一名水手，因为船着火了，你从船上跳下来，跳进了着火的油田，你就会沾上它，然后在水下被烧伤。

It was a horrible way to go.

这是一条可怕的路。

So this was a state secret, closely guarded secret.

所以这是一个国家秘密，严格保密的秘密。

So closely guarded—it remains a mystery to this day of what exactly it was.

如此严密的保护——至今它到底是什么仍然是个谜。

Which is incredible, right?

这太不可思议了，对吧？

Yeah.

是的。

1:25:31 But it, in the 944 attack on Constantinople, I mean the Vikings are coming on their ships.

但是，在 944 年对君士坦丁堡的袭击中，我的意思是维京人正在乘船而来。

They brought these ships from Sweden.

他们从瑞典带来了这些船只。

I mean that’s crazy.

我的意思是这太疯狂了。

They’re in the Black Sea.

他们在黑海。

They’ve sailed and they kind of swarm at the Byzantines.

他们扬帆起航，蜂拥而至拜占庭人。

The Byzantines launch a bunch of decrepit old ships toward them that have Greek fire on them, and that turns the tide.

拜占庭人向他们发射了一堆破旧的旧船，船上有希腊火，这扭转了局势。

But the Byzantine emperor so appreciates the strength of these horrifying Vikings that he forms a bodyguard of them.

但拜占庭皇帝非常欣赏这些可怕的维京人的力量，因此为他们组建了卫队。

And hence we get just a few years later, again, tried to sack Constantinople and then join them.

因此，几年后我们再次试图洗劫君士坦丁堡，然后加入他们。

Join ’em, yep.

加入他们，是的。

The Varangian Guard in 988 with Basil II and Vladimir, they make the Varangian Guard into an institution, and then the word of mouth spreads that this is a real career path for the Viking, is to join the guard.

988年的瓦兰吉卫队与巴兹尔二世和弗拉基米尔一起，他们将瓦兰吉卫队变成了一个机构，然后口碑相传，这是维京人真正的职业道路，就是加入卫队。

Yeah, that’s right.

是的，没错。

1:26:25 ‘Cause not only do you get paid very, you’re compensated very well obviously for defending the emperor, particularly if you do a good job, but you also have opportunities ’cause the emperor sends you, “Let’s go attack, you know, this tribe,” and you get to keep whatever you take.

因为你不仅能得到很高的报酬，而且显然因为保卫皇帝而得到了很好的补偿，特别是如果你做得很好，而且你也有机会，因为皇帝派你去，“让我们去攻击，你知道，这个部落”，你就可以保留你拿走的任何东西。

So there’s tremendous amounts of war profiteering you can accomplish.

因此，你可以实现大量的战争暴利。

And the other great river system, the Volga, that brings you to the great enemy of the Byzantines, the Abbasid Caliphate.

还有另一个伟大的河流系统，伏尔加河，它会把你带到拜占庭人的大敌人，阿巴斯哈里发国。

And they had a lot of trading links with the north.

他们与北方有很多贸易联系。

So you get things like fur and amber, lots of slaves from the Islamic world going up.

所以你会得到毛皮和琥珀之类的东西，很多来自伊斯兰世界的奴隶都在上涨。

You even have in a Swedish coin hoard, there’s a Buddha that’s been found.

甚至在瑞典的硬币宝藏中，也发现了一尊佛像。

I mean…

我的意思是……

it’s Sweden.

这是瑞典。

Yeah.

是的。

1:27:18 So these networks of trade, just how incredible are they with geography, right?

那么这些贸易网络在地理上是多么令人难以置信，对吧？

You can transform your understanding of land from the geography of the land to the geography of the river networks, because the way they raid and then invade and then conquer England is through the rivers.

你可以把你对土地的理解从陆地地理转变为河流网络地理，因为他们袭击、入侵、征服英格兰的方式就是通过河流。

It’s an incredibly different way of seeing the world.

这是一种截然不同的看待世界的方式。

Yeah.

是的。

1:27:42 And if you look at the kingdoms the Vikings created, I’m thinking particularly of like Eric Blood-Axe in, you know, in York, he’s controlling parts of Ireland, parts of Scotland, Wales, England.

如果你看看维京人创建的王国，我特别想到像埃里克·血斧，你知道，在约克，他控制着爱尔兰的部分地区、苏格兰、威尔士和英格兰的部分地区。

Like there’s no…

好像没有……

That doesn’t make sense unless you’re a Viking.

除非你是维京人，否则这就没有意义。

You know, he’s…

你知道，他是……

That also added tremendously to the terror that the Vikings brought, because I mean you should probably be a little careful with absolute statements here, but I can’t think of a major European city that’s not on a river.

这也极大地增加了维京人带来的恐怖，因为我的意思是，你可能应该对这里的绝对陈述小心一点，但我想不出哪个欧洲主要城市不在河上。

Which meant now with the Vikings, ’cause they could travel up, you know, rivers, the shallow rivers and then carry their boats whenever, everything was on the table now, even hundreds of miles inland is on the table.

这对维京人来说意味着现在，因为他们可以沿着河流、浅河航行，然后随时携带船只，现在一切都摆在桌面上，甚至数百英里的内陆也摆在桌面上。

And an incredible speed, much faster than the land armies.

而且速度惊人，比陆军快得多。

1:28:33 It’s terrifying.

太可怕了。

It’s terrifying.

太可怕了。

So you’re living in a constant state of fear.

所以你一直生活在恐惧之中。

Constant state of fear.

持续的恐惧状态。

We’ve talked about this transition in several different contexts, but you’ve written about this.

我们已经在几个不同的背景下讨论过这种转变，但你已经写过这一点。

1:28:41 It’s really interesting.

这真的很有趣。

Is the Vikings, like Ragnar, going from this mode of sea kings with no territory to the mode of land kings?

维京人是否也像拉格纳一样，从这种没有领土的海王模式走向陆王模式？

So you have like somebody like Harald Bluetooth, 10th century Viking king of Denmark, you go from being these grand explorers that are free to being state builders.

因此，就像 10 世纪丹麦维京国王哈拉尔·蓝牙 (Harald Bluetooth) 这样的人一样，你从自由的伟大探险家变成了国家建设者。

Was this always inevitable for all of these Vikings?

对于所有这些维京人来说，这总是不可避免的吗？

Could we speak to the different transitions, maybe in England?

我们能否谈谈不同的转变，也许是在英格兰？

I think in one way, it’s inevitable.

我认为从某种程度上来说，这是不可避免的。

1:29:21 There’s so many examples of destroyers who just wreck civilizations.

有很多毁灭者破坏文明的例子。

The builders are much more rare, you know?

建筑商要难得多，你知道吗？

So I think it’s one of the reasons I think Augustus is a much more interesting person than Julius Caesar is.

所以我认为这就是我认为奥古斯都比朱利叶斯·凯撒更有趣的原因之一。

Augustus was a builder, and I like to see that.

奥古斯都是一名建设者，我喜欢看到这一点。

I like to see not just can you pull down, but can you build up?

我喜欢看到你不仅能拉倒，而且能建立起来吗？

You know, just to take Ireland for example, Dublin, Limerick, almost every major city in Ireland was founded by the Vikings.

要知道，就拿爱尔兰来说，都柏林、利默里克，几乎爱尔兰的每一个主要城市都是由维京人建立的。

So I don’t think it’s just a given that it would have happened.

所以我认为这并不是理所当然的。

I think there’s something about the Vikings, and it’s probably tied to their pragmatism, their—like this pragmatic streak of, “We’re gonna use whatever.

我认为维京人有一些东西，这可能与他们的实用主义有关，他们的——就像这种务实的倾向，“我们会使用任何东西。

Oh, this system of king works.

哦，这个国王制度有效。

1:30:12 This taxation system’s pretty good, let’s keep it.” You know, “Oh, this doesn’t work.

这个税收制度很好，我们就保留它吧。”你知道，“哦，这行不通。

Let’s ditch it.”

我们放弃它吧。”

Yeah, they went from destroyer to builder very naturally and very quickly.

是的，他们非常自然、非常迅速地从破坏者变成了建设者。

Yeah.

是的。

1:30:24 There’s a natural process from conquering to building, but it does take talent and it does take a certain something.

从征服到建设是一个自然的过程，但这确实需要天赋，也需要某些东西。

Can we talk about, so, one of the great Vikings, Canute the Great?

我们可以谈谈伟大的维京人之一克努特大帝吗？

I love Canute.

我爱克努特。

1:30:39 I love Canute.

我爱克努特。

I think he never, he doesn’t get his due.

我认为他从来没有，他没有得到他应得的。

He’s one of those unsung heroes, I think, of the Viking world.

我认为他是维京世界的无名英雄之一。

He had a reputation.

他有名气。

He was called the Emperor of the North.

他被称为北方皇帝。

He had this massive, you know, England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark.

他拥有如此庞大的英格兰、苏格兰、威尔士、爱尔兰、挪威、瑞典、丹麦。

I mean he’s just tying it all together.

我的意思是他只是把这一切联系在一起。

He was an extremely effective English king.

他是一位非常高效的英国国王。

I believe he introduced the penny, sadly discontinued, but I—

我相信他推出了便士，可惜后来停产了，但我——

Oh wait, really?

哦等等，真的吗？

1:31:08 Discontinued?

停产了？

Discontinued.

已停产。

1:31:10 They’re no longer making…

他们不再制造……

The penny is discontinued.

便士已停产。

2025’s the last, the last penny.

2025 年是最后的、最后的一分钱。

Oh, no.

哦，不。

Everything’s gonna go up by five.

一切都会上涨五。

So going to Perplexity.

所以去困惑。

1:31:19 Canute the Great was an early 11th century Danish ruler who became king of England, Denmark, and Norway…

克努特大帝是 11 世纪早期的丹麦统治者，后来成为英格兰、丹麦和挪威的国王……

creating what historians call the North Sea Empire.

创建了历史学家所说的北海帝国。

He’s often regarded as one of the most effective kings in Anglo-Saxon English history for stabilizing the realm after decades of Viking warfare.

他经常被认为是盎格鲁-撒克逊英国历史上最有效的国王之一，在经历了数十年的维京战争后稳定了王国。

Again, an example of a destroyer becoming a state builder.

这又是一个驱逐舰成为国家建设者的例子。

Yeah.

是的。

1:31:47 He was extremely strong.

他非常坚强。

He was effective.

他很有效。

You know, England went from being the whipping boy of the Vikings to controlling the Vikings.

要知道，英格兰从维京人的替罪羊，到了维京人的掌控者。

And ended up on a pilgrimage to Rome.

最终前往罗马朝圣。

Went to Rome.

去了罗马。

1:32:04 Yeah.

是的。

So he, although a Viking war leader, Canute ruled as a Christian king- …

因此，尽管他是维京战争领袖，克努特却以基督教国王的身份进行统治——……

1:32:06 Patronizing churches and monasteries and going on pilgrimage to Rome in 1027 where he attended the Holy Roman Emperor’s coronation.

他光顾教堂和修道院，并于 1027 年前往罗马朝圣，参加了神圣罗马帝国皇帝的加冕典礼。

Yes, he was recognized by his contemporaries as something special, right?

是的，他被同时代人认为是一个特别的人，对吧？

1:32:21 You don’t get invited to those coronations if you’re a nobody.

如果你是无名小卒，你就不会被邀请参加那些加冕典礼。

But the most famous story of Canute that I know, my favorite story, is, you know, being in positions of power, being famous, a lot of people sucking up to you, a lot of people telling you whatever they think you wanna hear.

但据我所知，我最喜欢的克努特故事是，你知道，掌握权力，出名，很多人巴结你，很多人告诉你他们认为你想听的任何事情。

And so people are telling him all the time how wonderful he is, and he takes his whole court down to the seashore and orders his, his courtiers to carry him on his throne into the water, and then he commands the seas to stop, the waves to stop and to retreat.

所以人们一直在告诉他他是多么了不起，他带着他的整个宫廷来到海边，命令他的朝臣们将他的王座抬到水中，然后他命令大海停止，波浪停止并撤退。

1:33:00 And they don’t, obviously, and everyone thinks he’s a little…

显然，他们没有，每个人都认为他有点……

But his point is that, “Y’all are saying how great I am.

但他的观点是，“你们都在说我有多棒。

I have no control.” I mean, this is his active humility to kind of embarrass…

我无法控制。”我的意思是，这是他主动谦虚到有点尴尬的程度……

“I have no control over anything.

“我无法控制任何事情。

Stop telling me I’m the greatest thing since sliced bread.”

别再告诉我我是自切片面包以来最伟大的东西。”

I like the leaders, and there’s a few of them in history that rise to the very top, and they’re still able to maintain humility.

我喜欢这些领导人，历史上有几个人爬到了最高层，而且仍然能够保持谦逊。

1:33:15 Marcus Aurelius in the Roman Empire is an example that, you know, reading Meditations is also just an insight into the mind of a man who’s to himself—’cause Meditations is not supposed to be work that’s published.

罗马帝国的马库斯·奥勒留就是一个例子，你知道，阅读《沉思录》也只是洞察一个独处者的思想——因为《沉思录》不应该是出版的作品。

It’s just a diary.

这只是一本日记。

To himself, he’s deeply humbled.

对他自己来说，他深感谦卑。

And- …

还有——

and one of the most powerful humans in history- …

以及历史上最强大的人类之一——……

is still humble.

依然是谦虚的。

The two most famous stoics, one was an emperor and one was a slave.

最著名的两位斯多葛派人物，一位是皇帝，一位是奴隶。

So in the other part of the world, you’ve written a book and you did an—a legendary podcast series on The Byzantine Empire, the East Roman Empire, AKA, The Roman Empire.

所以在世界的另一个地方，你写了一本书，并且制作了一个关于拜占庭帝国、东罗马帝国，又名罗马帝国的传奇播客系列。

1:33:55 Well, let me actually just as a tangent of a tangent ask you about the podcast.

好吧，让我实际上以切线的方式向您询问有关播客的事情。

So you’re—you created what is widely considered to be the first history podcast.

所以你——你创建了被广泛认为是第一个历史播客。

This is before Dan Carlin, before all the amazing podcasts we all know and love.

这是在丹·卡林之前，在我们都知道和喜爱的所有令人惊叹的播客之前。

So the podcast series of course is The Twelve Byzantine Rulers: The History of the Byzantine Empire.

所以播客系列当然是《十二位拜占庭统治者：拜占庭帝国的历史》。

What motivated you to explore this medium of podcasting?

是什么促使您探索播客这种媒介？

What…

什么……

In—in the early, this must’ve been 2005, something like this.

在早期，这一定是 2005 年，类似这样的事情。

It was ’05, yeah.

那是 05 年，是的。

And people should go listen to it because it, it’s still, I mean, it’s like we’re talking about like ancient times or something, ’cause it is now a long time ago, but it’s still an incredibly good podcast.

人们应该去听它，因为它仍然是，我的意思是，就像我们在谈论古代或其他什么东西，因为现在已经是很久以前的事了，但它仍然是一个非常好的播客。

1:34:42 It’s a great podcast series.

这是一个很棒的播客系列。

Thank you.

谢谢。

1:34:54 At the time, there’s a series that I would get at the library called The Great Courses.

当时，我会在图书馆找到一系列名为“伟大的课程”的系列。

I don’t know if you’re familiar with-

不知道你是否熟悉——

Yes.

是的。

1:35:02 Great Courses, yes.

很棒的课程，是的。

There was one particular professor.

有一位特别的教授。

1:35:03 His name is Bob Brier, and he was—he’s an Egyptologist, lives on Long Island where I’m from, and he—I mean, it’s a massive thing.

他的名字叫鲍勃·布里尔（Bob Brier），他是一位埃及古物学家，住在我来自的长岛，我的意思是，这是一件大事。

It’s like 24 hours- of lectures about the entire history of Egypt, and it was fascinating, ’cause he’s such a good storyteller.

这就像 24 小时关于埃及整个历史的讲座，这很有趣，因为他非常擅长讲故事。

And I was reading…

我正在读……

As a kid I could never figure out if I liked the medieval period better or the Roman period better.

当我还是个孩子的时候，我永远无法弄清楚我更喜欢中世纪时期还是罗马时期。

I was constantly going back and forth, and I stumbled across a book which referred to the medieval Roman Empire, and it was a bit like discovering your favorite TV show had 12 extra seasons you didn’t know about.

我不断地来来回回，偶然发现一本提到中世纪罗马帝国的书，这有点像发现你最喜欢的电视节目还有你不知道的 12 季。

1:35:47 And they were just as good.

他们也一样好。

So I…

所以我…

It really was a labor of love.

这确实是一种爱的劳动。

I would not shut up about The Byzantine Empire.

我不会对拜占庭帝国闭嘴。

So my older brother, we would go on walks together and I would be like, “And then Justinian, you know, da, da, da.” And he stopped me, he said, “I have no idea what you’re talking about.

所以我的哥哥，我们会一起散步，我会说，“然后查士丁尼，你知道，达，达，达。”他阻止了我，他说：“我不知道你在说什么。

I have no idea, like, I need a framework.

我不知道，比如，我需要一个框架。

Give me a framework for this.” So I went home and I recorded myself giving a framework, which turned out to be episode one, but I think I did it in a British accent, a really bad British accent.

给我一个框架。”所以我回到家，录下了自己给出的一个框架，结果是第一集，但我认为我是用英国口音做的，非常糟糕的英国口音。

1:36:21 I was just messing around.

我只是在胡闹。

And I gave him the…

我给了他……

Luckily, I did it in my regular voice as well as this goofy accent, and I gave it to him and then I forgot about it.

幸运的是，我用的是我平常的声音和这种愚蠢的口音，我把它给了他，然后我就忘了这件事。

And that summer I was on a dig in Petra excavating the Temple of the Winged Lions, which was like a dream come true for me.

那年夏天，我在佩特拉挖掘翼狮神庙，这对我来说就像梦想成真。

And I get this email from my brother and he said, “Oh, I just submitted it as a podcast.” So he had to tell me what that was.

我收到了我兄弟发来的这封电子邮件，他说：“哦，我只是将其作为播客提交。”所以他必须告诉我那是什么。

But I was going for, to the extent that I had put thought into it, I was going for kind of a longer form lecture Great Courses series on the Byzantines.

但我打算，就我所考虑的程度而言，我打算做一个关于拜占庭人的较长形式的伟大课程系列讲座。

And then a bunch of people started emailing me saying, “When’s episode two coming out?” Oh, okay.

然后一群人开始给我发电子邮件说：“第二集什么时候出来？”哦好的。

So I guess there has to be an episode two.

所以我想应该还有第二集。

And then the thing kinda snowballed from there.

然后事情就从那里滚雪球般越滚越大。

I had no idea what I was doing.

我不知道自己在做什么。

Your brother, by the way, is super tech savvy.

顺便说一下，你的兄弟非常精通技术。

He is.

他是。

1:37:18 It wouldn’t have happened without Anders.

如果没有安德斯，这一切就不会发生。

So Anders, thank you.

安德斯，谢谢你。

But like looking back now, what do you think about that medium?

但现在回想起来，您对这种媒介有何看法？

1:37:22 Why do you think it connected so much to people?

您认为为什么它与人们有如此大的联系？

Because you’ve also written several amazing books.

因为你还写了几本精彩的书。

One of them is on The Byzantine Empire.

其中之一是关于拜占庭帝国的。

Just looking back in a retrospective kind of way, because that from there blew up an entire industry of incredible other history podcasts and podcasts in general.

只是以回顾的方式回顾一下，因为从那时起，整个行业都炸毁了，包括令人难以置信的其他历史播客和一般播客。

Yeah, I’ve been…

是的，我曾经……

1:37:49 That’s a great question.

这是一个很好的问题。

I’ve been trying to think for the past 20 years, like why it’s such a niche field, right?

过去20年来我一直在思考，为什么它是一个如此小众的领域，对吧？

Why would people be interested in it?

为什么人们会对它感兴趣？

I think number one, it’s a great story.

我认为第一，这是一个很棒的故事。

And people are people, and we haven’t changed much, which is one of the reasons why it’s accessible, because it’s very…

人就是人，我们没有改变太多，这就是它易于访问的原因之一，因为它非常......

These are people you could meet today.

这些是您今天可能会遇到的人。

But I think podcasting in general, because there’s such a low bar to get in, or there was at the time.

但我认为播客总体来说是因为进入的门槛很低，或者说当时是这样。

I mean, there’s nobody else, so just by virtue of being first, you know, it attracted attention.

我的意思是，没有其他人，所以仅仅凭借第一，你知道，它就引起了关注。

Whatever its merits, being first was the strongest one.

不管有什么优点，第一就是最强的。

Which is to say you also did another series on the Normans, who no longer had the benefit of being first and were still nevertheless very good, so…

也就是说，你还制作了另一个关于诺曼人的系列，他们不再享有第一的优势，但仍然非常出色，所以……

Oh, I appreciate that.

哦，我很感激。

1:38:48 Thank you.

谢谢。

It was…

这是……

But I think podcasting in a way democratizes learning.

但我认为播客在某种程度上使学习民主化。

You know, it unlocked the potential of all these armchair historians.

你知道，它释放了所有这些纸上谈兵的历史学家的潜力。

I’m one of them who’s like, “Hey, this is really cool.

我是其中之一，他们会说：“嘿，这真的很酷。

I’m passionate about this.” You know, anything that allows you to tap into your passion, I think is gonna be great.

我对此充满热情。”你知道，任何能让你发挥你的热情的事情，我认为都会很棒。

And the Byzantine Empire’s an interesting one.

拜占庭帝国是一个有趣的帝国。

1:39:14 I don’t understand maybe…

我不明白也许……

And you articulated this well, but it doesn’t get like the love that it maybe deserves in history.

你说得很好，但它并没有得到历史上应有的爱。

I think the framing of the book you wrote on the topic is the reason we have Western civilization as we know, or European-based Western civilization.

我认为你就这个主题所写的书的框架是我们拥有我们所知道的西方文明或基于欧洲的西方文明的原因。

In a sense because you have…

从某种意义上说，因为你有……

They…

他们……

Let’s see, maybe you can articulate the different ways they connected the thread, but one of them is they preserved the knowledge when the West was—when Europe was going through a dark period; they protected Europe in all those ways.

让我们看看，也许你可以阐明他们连接线索的不同方式，但其中之一是他们保留了西方时期的知识——当欧洲正在经历一个黑暗时期；他们以所有这些方式保护了欧洲。

And then eventually they jumpstart the Renaissance, ’cause people are…

最终他们推动了文艺复兴，因为人们……

1:39:52 Constantinople’s gonna fall.

君士坦丁堡要陷落了。

It’s inevitable.

这是不可避免的。

It’s surrounded by hostile powers, and so they start migrating to Italy.

它被敌对势力包围，因此他们开始迁移到意大利。

Just at the moment Italy is receptive to its Greco-Roman past.

此刻，意大利正在接受其希腊罗马的过去。

Greek had died out in the West actually as early as the time of Justinian in the 500s, 560s.

实际上早在500、560年代查士丁尼时代，希腊语就已经在西方消亡了。

They needed…

他们需要……

If you wanted to travel between the eastern and western parts of the empire, you needed guidebooks with helpful Latin or Greek phrases.

如果您想在帝国的东部和西部之间旅行，您需要带有有用的拉丁语或希腊语短语的指南。

So Latin had died out in the East and Greek had died out in the West by the 14th century, so you needed Byzantine teachers to be able to read Plato and Aristotle.

到了 14 世纪，拉丁语已经在东方消亡，希腊语在​​西方也已经消亡，所以你需要拜占庭老师来阅读柏拉图和亚里士多德的著作。

The book also emphasizes as we’ve mentioned, a kind of great man view of history.

正如我们所提到的，这本书还强调了一种伟人的历史观。

1:40:41 So celebrating people like Constantine and Justinian.

所以庆祝像康斯坦丁和查士丁尼这样的人。

Or Justinian, who would be your number one top emperor in the history of the East Roman Empire, Byzantine Empire?

或者查士丁尼，谁会是你心目中东罗马帝国、拜占庭帝国历史上的第一顶级皇帝？

Hmm, that’s a good question.

嗯，这是个好问题。

1:40:58 I mean, romantically, it’s gotta be Justinian.

我的意思是，从浪漫角度来说，必须是查士丁尼。

He dreams big.

他的梦想很大。

He dreams big.

他的梦想很大。

He doesn’t always get there, but he dreams big.

他并不总能实现这一目标，但他有远大的梦想。

He dreamed and tried to reconquer the Western Roman Empire.

他梦想并试图重新征服西罗马帝国。

1:41:07 I mean, he was a lot of wars of conquest- …

我的意思是，他经历了很多征服战争——……

and built the…

并建造了……

Built the Hagia Sophia.

建造了圣索菲亚大教堂。

1:41:19 I mean, I think this is…

我的意思是，我认为这是……

You know, we’re interested in the Egyptians because they built the pyramids.

你知道，我们对埃及人感兴趣是因为他们建造了金字塔。

We’re not interested in the pyramids because they were built by the Egyptians, right?

我们对金字塔不感兴趣，因为它们是埃及人建造的，对吧？

It’s like what is the great thing that your society has created?

就像你们的社会创造的伟大事物是什么？

I think the Hagia Sophia is that for the Byzantine Empire.

我认为圣索菲亚大教堂是拜占庭帝国的圣索菲亚大教堂。

I mean, to go in it today is still the closest you can come to the fifth century.

我的意思是，今天仍然是最接近五世纪的。

You know, and it peeled back the imperial splendor of what it must’ve been like.

你知道，它剥夺了本来应该有的帝国辉煌。

You know, you can still see it.

你知道，你仍然可以看到它。

You can smell it.

你可以闻到它的味道。

You can feel it.

你可以感觉到。

Like, it’s there.

就像，它就在那里。

There’s actually a really nice video on YouTube of you going from I think 50 to 60 years ago.

实际上，YouTube 上有一段非常精彩的视频，内容是我认为 50 到 60 年前的内容。

1:41:52 I don’t know.

我不知道。

Seems like that.

好像是这样。

1:42:00 It does seem like that, yeah.

看起来确实是这样，是的。

We actually were kicked out.

我们实际上是被赶出来的。

Oh, what’d you do?

哦，你做了什么？

My brother and I went.

我和弟弟去了。

What would you do?

你会怎么办？

Well, you know, they—as you know, they’re very strict as to guides.

嗯，你知道，他们——如你所知，他们对指南非常严格。

1:42:06 They want to promote the local economy, so you have to have a local guide.

他们想促进当地经济，所以你必须有当地的导游。

You can’t go in there and look like you’re being a tour guide without a license.

你不能进去后看起来就像是一个没有执照的导游。

You have 15 different organizations.

你们有 15 个不同的组织。

So we went there early, the hour it opened, and we had the entire cathedral to ourselves.

所以我们很早就去了那里，在它开门的时候，我们就拥有了整个大教堂。

And so we went around and my brother’s holding this camera and I’m, you know, goofily pointing things out.

所以我们四处走动，我哥哥拿着相机，我，你知道，傻乎乎地指出事情。

And one of the guards noticed us, and, you know, we had to remove ourselves from the building.

一名警卫注意到了我们，你知道，我们不得不离开大楼。

And so one of the things, I mean Justinian was a critical person in this too.

其中一件事，我的意思是查士丁尼在这方面也是一个关键人物。

1:42:41 He overhauled the Roman law.

他彻底修改了罗马法。

The legal system, the law…

法律体系、法律……

First of all, the Roman Empire in general, the East Roman Empire propagated it.

首先是整个罗马帝国，东罗马帝国传播它。

They believed in the law.

他们相信法律。

They held onto the law.

他们坚守法律。

And that’s many of the legal ideas we take for granted is grounded in everything developed in the Roman Empire and stabilizing the Roman Empire, so they carried that flag forward.

我们认为理所当然的许多法律思想都植根于罗马帝国发展起来的一切并稳定了罗马帝国，所以他们将这面旗帜向前推进。

Yeah.

是的。

1:43:11 I mean, outside of Great Britain, all European legal systems are based on, ultimately based on the Code of Justinian, and then weirdly, because of the French connections, the State of Louisiana.

我的意思是，在英国之外，所有欧洲法律体系都基于，最终基于查士丁尼法典，然后奇怪的是，由于与法国的联系，路易斯安那州。

Actually, if you want to be a lawyer, you have to—you have to pass a different bar in Louisiana than in everywhere else in the US.

事实上，如果你想成为一名律师，你必须通过路易斯安那州与美国其他地方不同的酒吧。

Why do you think the—the Western Roman Empire and then the Eastern Roman Empire collapsed?

你认为为什么西罗马帝国然后东罗马帝国崩溃了？

1:43:32 Just looking at the grand picture of the history of the Roman Empire, it’s 2,200 years starting from the kingdom to the republic…

纵观罗马帝国历史的宏图，从王国到共和国，已有2200年……

and to the imperial period, to the East Roman Empire period.

再到帝国时期，到东罗马帝国时期。

Why do societies rise and fall?

社会为何兴衰？

That’s a really interesting question, and there are probably as many answers as there are different kingdoms.

这是一个非常有趣的问题，有多少个王国，就有多少种答案。

1:43:55 But just the Roman Empire.

但只是罗马帝国。

My take on it is that the collapse really starts at the end of the reign of Basil II.

我的看法是，崩溃真正开始于巴西尔二世统治末期。

So the year is 1025.

所以年份是 1025 年。

Basil is the last monarch of the Macedonian dynasty, which had seen the empire become the most powerful state in the Mediterranean, much more powerful and advanced than its Muslim or Christian neighbors.

巴西尔是马其顿王朝的最后一位君主，该王朝见证了该帝国成为地中海最强大的国家，比其穆斯林或基督教邻国更加强大和先进。

He had expanded the empire essentially as large as it was going to be after Justinian.

他基本上将帝国扩张到了查士丁尼之后的规模。

It was wealthy, it was glittering, it was educated.

它很富有，它闪闪发光，它受过教育。

I mean, courtiers had to memorize the works of Plato by heart.

我的意思是，朝臣们必须熟记柏拉图的著作。

1:44:44 The emperor, one of his favorite activities was to go, and he would begin a quote, and you would have to finish it, but you didn’t know where he would begin or what he was thinking that day.

皇帝，他最喜欢的活动之一就是去，他会开始引用一句话，你必须完成它，但你不知道他会从哪里开始，也不知道他那天在想什么。

This is kind of what amused him, so they’re incredibly literate.

这让他觉得很有趣，所以他们的文化程度非常高。

I mean, inside Constantinople itself, the literacy rate was close to 100, which is…

我的意思是，在君士坦丁堡内部，识字率接近 100，这是……

1:45:03 …

……

crazy.

疯狂的。

But when he died, the court, which had been this magnificent court, this bureaucracy which had been running the empire, and which is vital to the workings of the empire, they convinced themselves that they could run the empire, they didn’t actually need the emperor.

但当他去世时，朝廷，曾经是这个宏伟的朝廷，这个一直在管理帝国的官僚机构，对帝国的运作至关重要，他们说服自己，他们可以管理帝国，他们实际上并不需要皇帝。

And so they specifically selected weak rulers, and then that led directly to the disastrous Battle of Manzikert in 1071, where the Turks enter the story and defeat, destroy the Roman army under Romanos Diogenes, who’s attempting to break free of the bureaucratic constraints.

因此，他们专门选择了软弱的统治者，然后直接导致了1071年灾难性的曼齐克特战役，土耳其人介入并击败、摧毁了试图摆脱官僚束缚的罗曼努斯·第欧根尼领导的罗马军队。

And then Anatolia gets flooded by these nomadic warriors, and the Byzantine gets pushed out on the…

然后安纳托利亚被这些游牧战士淹没，拜占庭人被赶出了......

1:45:46 So once they’ve lost the heartland, they’ve lost their source of troops, they’ve lost their source of taxation, they’ve lost their source of food.

所以一旦他们失去了心脏地带，他们就失去了兵源，失去了税源，失去了食物来源。

At this point it’s impossible to recover, and the Crusades are an attempt, the First Crusade anyway is an attempt by the Eastern Emperor Alexius to recover Asia Minor, more than Jerusalem.

事已至此，想要收复是不可能的了，十字军东征就是一次尝试，无论如何，第一次十字军东征都是东方皇帝阿莱克修斯收复小亚细亚的一次尝试，而不是耶路撒冷。

He wants to recover Asia Minor, and obviously it doesn’t work out.

他想收复小亚细亚，显然行不通。

So I think at that point, it’s on a trajectory that can only end in collapse.

所以我认为，到那时，它正处于一条只能以崩溃告终的轨道上。

And I think that’s, you can see that same kind of thing in the Viking world that we talked about, this stultifying, bureaucratic, this inflexibility.

我认为，你可以在我们谈到的维京世界中看到同样的事情，这种愚蠢、官僚主义、这种僵化。

Combined with the growing threats from all directions.

加上来自四面八方日益增长的威胁。

Growing threats in all directions.

各个方向的威胁都在增加。

1:46:32 Maybe your own success is beginning to be a problem.

也许你自己的成功开始成为一个问题。

And you can’t adapt as quickly, you’re not as lean and mean anymore.

而且你无法那么快适应，你不再那么精瘦和刻薄了。

There’s too many traditions, too many, too much, the weight of history breaks you.

有太多的传统，太多，太多，历史的重量压垮了你。

You sort of mentioned the Macedonian period, the dynasty where the East Roman Empire flourished once again, but like, they have gone through so many periods like that, and they lasted.

你提到了马其顿时期，东罗马帝国再次繁荣的王朝，但就像，他们经历了很多这样的时期，并且持续了下来。

That’s true.

这是真的。

1:46:56 That is true.

确实如此。

I don’t know what the reason is, but you can really trace the Roman spirit, the Roman state, the core of whatever that is, through that 2,200-year period.

我不知道原因是什么，但你确实可以追溯罗马精神、罗马国家，以及这一切的核心，贯穿那2200年的时期。

1:46:57 There’s a real connection there, a thread that connects all of it, and so that, there’s lessons.

那里有一个真正的联系，一条连接所有一切的线索，所以，有教训。

That’s why we do need to study the Byzantium Empire for lessons of what makes societies last.

这就是为什么我们确实需要研究拜占庭帝国，从中汲取社会持久的教训。

Eventually everything collapses, but like that one lasted-

最终一切都崩溃了，但就像那样——

That one lasted a long time.

那件事持续了很长时间。

…

……

1:47:29 longer.

更长。

It’s easier to last when you’re hidden away somewhere, but they were in the middle of everything.

当你躲在某个地方时，更容易坚持下去，但他们就在一切的中间。

Everybody wanted what they had.

每个人都想要他们拥有的东西。

Yeah, they were getting hit on all sides.

是的，他们四面受击。

1:47:35 There was, in their entire 2200-year history, there was not a single year they were at peace on all frontiers.

在他们2200年的历史中，没有哪一年是在所有边境上和平相处的。

Like, crazy.

就像，疯狂。

And it wasn’t always because they were looking for trouble.

这并不总是因为他们在自找麻烦。

No.

不。

They’re, a lot of it is defensive.

他们很多都是防御性的。

Yep, including with those pesky Normans.

是的，包括那些讨厌的诺曼人。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

1:47:55 On the topic of great men in history, so where do you land on this great debate?

关于历史上的伟人这个话题，您对这场伟大的辩论有何看法？

How important are individual humans versus systems?

个人与系统相比有多重要？

So what do you think turns the tides of history?

那么您认为是什么扭转了历史的潮流呢？

Can individual rulers or individual warriors or individual humans have the power to change the course of history?

个别统治者、个别战士或个别人类是否有能力改变历史进程？

Yeah, that’s the question, isn’t it?

是的，这就是问题，不是吗？

1:48:20 I…

我……

The short answer is I subscribe to the great man or great woman theory.

简短的回答是我赞同伟人或伟人理论。

I think there’s moments—I can’t imagine the Protestant Reformation.

我认为有些时刻——我无法想象新教改革。

I don’t think you can just swap out Martin Luther and have a Protestant Reformation.

我不认为你可以取代马丁·路德而进行新教改革。

I don’t think you can swap out Augustus and have the Roman Empire.

我不认为你可以取代奥古斯都而拥有罗马帝国。

I mean, there are…

我的意思是，有……

I don’t think you can swap out Genghis—and so on and so forth.

我认为你不能换掉成吉思汗——等等。

I think ultimately these impersonal forces are insufficient for explaining, because we are people.

我认为最终这些非个人力量不足以解释，因为我们是人。

We are humans.

我们是人类。

We are, you know, everything is kind of a relational thing.

我们，你知道，一切都是有关系的。

And but at the same time, you know, the moment needs the man, but the man also needs the moment, you know?

但与此同时，你知道，这一刻需要男人，但男人也需要那一刻，你知道吗？

Some of it is timing, some of it is the environment- …

有的是时间因素，有的是环境因素……

1:49:07 the system around it.

围绕它的系统。

But yeah, I’ve just seen so many incredible humans that persevere through things that would break basically everybody.

但是，是的，我刚刚看到了很多令人难以置信的人，他们坚持不懈地克服了基本上会击垮所有人的事情。

And they, the power of the belief they have.

而他们，他们所拥有的信念的力量。

We were talking offline about Napoleon.

我们在线下谈论拿破仑。

Here’s a guy who was a student of all the great military generals of the past.

这个人是过去所有伟大军事将领的学生。

Extremely competent in being able to micromanage every aspect of military affairs of a nation, but also extremely confident in his vision of the world and ability to conquer anyone.

非常有能力对一个国家的军事事务的各个方面进行微观管理，而且对自己的世界观和征服任何人的能力都非常有信心。

And you have the same thing with Genghis Khan.

成吉思汗也有同样的情况。

This boy that came from nothing.

这个白手起家的男孩。

Everything was taken away.

一切都被拿走了。

He united all of Mongolia, and then conquered most of the known world to them, including eventually China.

他统一了整个蒙古，然后征服了他们所知的大部分世界，最终包括中国。

1:50:15 And it’s like, well, can you possibly have the great Mongol Empire without Genghis Khan?

这就好像，没有成吉思汗，你还能拥有伟大的蒙古帝国吗？

No.

不。

And the same, and we as Americans ask ourselves that question about the founders.

同样，我们作为美国人也会问自己关于创始人的问题。

1:50:26 I mean, George Washington, not to romanticize it, but to give away power symbolically is a really powerful statement like we’ll mention with Augustus.

我的意思是，乔治·华盛顿，不要将其浪漫化，而是象征性地放弃权力，这是一个非常有力的声明，就像我们将在奥古斯都中提到的那样。

There’s…

有……

When somebody’s given power, and in some sense absolute power, what they do with that power can reverberate through generations, and that’s in the hands of an individual.

当某人被赋予权力，在某种意义上是绝对权力时，他们利用这种权力所做的事情可能会影响几代人，而这一切都掌握在个人手中。

Yeah.

是的。

1:50:57 Yeah, that’s exactly right.

是的，完全正确。

That’s well put.

说得好。

You know, Cincinnatus in Ancient Rome, same thing.

你知道，古罗马的辛辛纳图斯也是如此。

What lessons from…

从中得到什么教训...

1:51:05 This is a big, ridiculous question, but-

这是一个大而荒谬的问题，但是——

Go at it.

去做吧。

…

……

1:51:09 what lessons from all the things we’ve talked about, the exploration of the Vikings?

我们从维京人的探索中学到了什么教训？

What lessons do you learn from Vikings?

你从维京人身上学到了什么教训？

Lessons, lessons to learn from the Viking Age?

维京时代的教训、教训？

By the way, I should mention one thing.

顺便说一句，我应该提一件事。

1:51:20 It’s a very practical lesson that we didn’t talk about that you taught me is the, the Vikings were, like, groomed themselves.

这是一个非常实用的教训，我们没有谈论过，你教我的是，维京人就像是在打扮自己。

Oh yeah.

哦，是的。

They were like clean.

他们就像干净的一样。

1:51:34 This is so very surprising to me.

这让我非常惊讶。

That they like washed themselves and then both the men and the women- …

他们喜欢把自己洗干净，然后男人和女人都——……

really took care of themselves.

真的很照顾自己。

You don’t often think about that.

你不会经常想到这一点。

There was this whole…

原来还有这整个……

1:51:44 Like, the Vikings, everyone at this…

就像维京人一样，每个人都在……

Everyone has this very clear picture of what a Viking looked like- …

每个人都非常清楚地了解维京人的样子——……

and also has no idea what a Viking looked like somehow at the same time.

同时也不知道维京人是什么样子。

Like, almost everything about them is wrong- …

就像，几乎所有关于他们的事情都是错的——……

that we think of.

我们想到的。

You know, almost everything about them is wrong.

你知道，关于他们的几乎所有事情都是错误的。

They didn’t wear horned helmets.

他们没有戴有角的头盔。

They, their hair probably was blonde disproportionately, but that was more because they used lye to dye it because it would kill the lice.

他们的头发可能不成比例地呈金色，但这更多是因为他们用碱液染发，因为这样可以杀死虱子。

And then they would take baths on a more regular basis than…

然后他们会比……更定期洗澡。

I mean, this depended on where you were.

我的意思是，这取决于你在哪里。

So in England, for example, they were mocked as being soft, which always blows my mind.

例如，在英格兰，他们被嘲笑为软弱，这总是让我感到震惊。

Like, really?

真的吗？

You’re gonna mock the Vikings for being soft?

你会嘲笑维京人软弱吗？

Because they took too many baths.

因为他们洗了太多次澡。

1:52:29 But then in the Muslim East, one Muslim traveler writes that they were God’s filthiest creatures because of their habits of kind of disgusting shared bathing.

但后来在穆斯林东部，一位穆斯林旅行者写道，他们是上帝最肮脏的生物，因为他们有一种令人厌恶的共用洗澡的习惯。

Oh, that aspect of it.

哦，这方面。

That, yeah.

那个，是的。

Yeah.

是的。

1:52:44 So, it’s not that they didn’t bathe, they bathed a little too much and together.

所以，他们并不是不洗澡，而是洗得太多了，而且是一起洗澡。

They bathed, but they also like would brush their teeth- …

他们洗澡，但他们也喜欢刷牙——……

1:52:48 using like recycled…

像回收一样使用…

Like, they would then spit into a cup and pass it to the next guy.

就像，他们会吐口水到杯子里，然后递给下一个人。

Got it.

知道了。

It was…

这是……

1:52:57 It’s not awesome.

这并不好。

I read that…

我读到……

1:52:59 This is, this could be propaganda, but I read that in England there was worry that the Vikings were a bit too attractive to the women of England because of how much the Vikings took care of themselves in terms of grooming.

这，这可能是宣传，但我读到，在英国，有人担心维京人对英国女性来说有点太有吸引力，因为维京人在打扮方面非常注重自己。

Yeah.

是的。

1:53:17 In the Danelaw, like you get invaded by these people- …

在丹麦法中，就像你被这些人入侵一样——……

they’re kicking your rear end militarily.

他们正在军事上踢你的屁股。

Now they’re stealing your women just to insult you as well.

现在他们抢走你的女人只是为了侮辱你。

You know?

你知道？

Yeah.

是的。

1:53:28 They’re…

他们是……

They wash themselves daily.

他们每天都会洗澡。

They’ve got good teeth.

他们有一口好牙。

What is this bullshit?

这是什么废话？

Whether they need it or not, I know.

他们是否需要，我知道。

1:53:34 It really is…

确实是……

Why you guys can’t have everything?

为什么你们不能拥有一切？

1:53:37 What are you doing?

你在干什么？

Anyway, so yeah, so one of the lessons I think we need to draw is shower daily.

不管怎样，是的，所以我认为我们需要吸取的教训之一就是每天洗澡。

Shower daily.

每天淋浴。

Yeah, there you go.

是的，就这样。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

That’s the one thing I forgot.

这是我忘记的一件事。

That’s the lesson, that’s the takeaway, that’s the big profound takeaway.

这就是教训，这就是收获，这就是最深刻的收获。

Is there something bigger about the exploration about the leaps into the unknown?

跨越未知的探索还有更大的意义吗？

Yeah, I think a couple of years ago, there were all these debates about statues.

是的，我想几年前，有很多关于雕像的争论。

1:53:57 Make sure we pull these statues down.

确保我们把这些雕像推倒。

This person did a bad thing, let’s pull these statues.

这个人做了坏事，我们把这些雕像拔掉吧。

You know, and I always thought they were kind of silly, too.

你知道，我也一直认为他们有点傻。

I mean, I understand the point, but…

我的意思是，我明白这一点，但是……

Like, we don’t…

就像，我们不……

When you have a statue of Christopher Columbus, for example, you’re not glorifying every single thing the man ever did and all the bad stuff that comes from this or that.

例如，当你有一尊克里斯托弗·哥伦布的雕像时，你并不是在赞美这个人曾经做过的每一件事以及由此或那个带来的所有坏事。

You’re honoring something about him, like the spirit it takes to cross an ocean not knowing what’s on the other side, and that’s that spirit of exploration.

你尊重他的某些东西，比如跨越海洋而不知道另一边是什么的精神，这就是探索精神。

I think with the Vikings, it’s the same.

我认为维京人也是一样。

There’s this way you approach the world, this fearless, pragmatic approach.

这就是你接触世界的方式，这种无所畏惧、务实的方式。

1:54:40 I think as an American too, it’s the ultimate rags to riches.

我也认为作为一个美国人，这是最终的白手起家。

It’s the myth we tell ourself.

这是我们告诉自己的神话。

You know, the man who starts with nothing and ends up as a sea king, well respected and sung about by poets.

你知道，这个人白手起家，最终成为海王，受到诗人的尊敬和歌颂。

I mean, that’s it right there.

我的意思是，就在那里。

You know, this is…

你知道，这是……

And when you’re a society and you stop doing this, you run into trouble as well.

当你在一个社会中停止这样做时，你也会遇到麻烦。

What about the, the Byzantine Empire?

那么拜占庭帝国呢？

1:55:03 What lessons do you draw from them?

你从他们身上得到什么教训？

This is a much…

这是一个非常…

1:55:08 That’s a much bigger one.

那是一个更大的。

1000-year history.

1000年历史。

1000-year history, and it’s also what I think is so cool about the Byzantines is that in the ways that they are like us and the way that they are unlike us.

1000 年的历史，我认为拜占庭人最酷的地方就在于他们与我们相似，又与我们不同。

1:55:11 In some ways, they’re very analogous to the United States.

在某些方面，它们与美国非常相似。

The kind of the polyglot nature of their inhabitants, you know, the, their roots, the Greco-Roman, Judeo-Christian roots.

他们的居民的多语言性质，你知道，他们的根源，希腊罗马，犹太基督教根源。

And yet it was a place of incredible alien things as well.

然而，这里也充满了令人难以置信的外星事物。

Men sitting on top of pillars.

男子坐在柱子上。

You know, a king, an incredibly hierarchical system which abhorred democracy.

你知道，一个国王，一个令人难以置信的等级制度，它憎恶民主。

So I think it’s a way, it’s a way we…

所以我认为这是一种方式，这是我们……的一种方式。

It’s a route we could have taken….

这是我们本可以采取的路线……

And it’s the way they handled things.

这就是他们处理事情的方式。

Immigration, inflation, war, peace, diplomacy.

移民、通货膨胀、战争、和平、外交。

I think there are, there are lessons there for us.

我认为是有的，这对我们来说是有教训的。

Yeah.

是的。

1:56:09 Yeah, I think from the Vikings, the lessons are a bit more poetic.

是的，我认为维京人的教训更有诗意。

The lessons from the Byzantine Empire is like quite literal, like how to run a government, how to run the law, how to-

拜占庭帝国的教训非常字面意思，比如如何管理政府，如何管理法律，如何——

Yeah.

是的。

1:56:19 How to build a stable society.

如何建设稳定的社会。

And honestly, like you can count on the fingers of one hand, states that have lasted a thousand years, right?

老实说，就像你用一只手的手指就能数出来一样，已经持续了一千年的国家，对吧？

Byzantium and Venice, I think.

我想是拜占庭和威尼斯。

And Venice was an offshoot of the Byzantines.

威尼斯是拜占庭帝国的一个分支。

Like that’s a gov— for a government to last a thousand years is a rare thing.

就像政府一样——一个政府能持续一千年是一件罕见的事情。

Like, we should be taking a look at this.

就像，我们应该看看这个。

Like how?

怎么样？

And how much of that is due to Augustus?

其中有多少归功于奥古斯都？

Can we give him any credit for this?

我们可以为此给予他任何荣誉吗？

He built the system.

他建立了这个系统。

Yeah.

是的。

1:56:48 But there was a lot, like you mentioned a lot of people along the way from Constantine to Justinian, the Basils.

但有很多人，就像你提到的从君士坦丁到查士丁尼一路上有很多人，巴西尔家族。

There’s so many emperors along the way that revolutionized and then restabilized the empire after it was almost falling apart.

一路上有很多皇帝在帝国几乎崩溃后进行了革命并使其重新稳定。

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

1:57:04 You know what else too though?

你还知道还有什么吗？

Like what happens to a human when you give that human essentially absolute power?

就像当你赋予人类绝对的权力时会发生什么？

‘Cause the Byzantine emperor stood halfway there.

因为拜占庭皇帝就站在半路上。

I mean, he was more autocratic than anything other than, I don’t know, the pope that we have in the modern world.

我的意思是，他比现代世界的教皇更专制，我不知道。

What happens when you give someone that level of power?

当你给予某人这种程度的权力时会发生什么？

Like, I love Justinian, but I wouldn’t have liked to know him.

就像，我爱查士丁尼，但我不想认识他。

You know, I wouldn’t like to be one of his subjects.

你知道，我不想成为他的臣民之一。

I love Basil I, but the man was a bloodthirsty tyrant.

我爱巴兹尔一世，但这个人是一个嗜血的暴君。

Like, I think it shows you what happened.

就像，我想它向你展示了发生了什么。

What is it?

它是什么？

Lord Acton: “Absolute power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” Like that’s quite clear throughout Byzantine histories, and it’s a long, a long list.

阿克顿勋爵：“绝对权力导致腐败，绝对权力导致绝对腐败。”这在整个拜占庭历史中都很清楚，而且是一个很长很长的清单。

And as technologies become more powerful, absolute power becomes potentially more destructive, so-

随着技术变得更加强大，绝对权力可能变得更具破坏性，所以——

Yeah, it’s more absolute.

是的，这更绝对。

It’s more absolute.

就更绝对了。

You know?

你知道？

And it’s— I mean, this is the project for the 21st century, the 20th and the 21st centuries post-Industrial Revolution, post the computer technological revolution, post nuclear weapons discovery.

这是——我的意思是，这是工业革命后、计算机技术革命后、核武器发现后的 21 世纪、20 世纪和 21 世纪的项目。

1:58:05 How do we construct societies that last like the Byzantine Empire did a thousand years?

我们如何构建像拜占庭帝国那样持续一千年的社会？

It’s just like a new challenge for us.

这对我们来说就像一个新的挑战。

There’s gonna be history books written about us ’cause like nuclear weapons, you know, 80 years ago, it’s like Greek fire that you can apply to the entirety of human civilization.

将会有关于我们的历史书，因为就像 80 年前的核武器一样，它就像希腊之火一样，可以应用于整个人类文明。

And, and so- …

还有，还有这样——……

that, there’s gonna be good history books, and I hope there’s gonna be these stories about the American empire, about the rest that sound similar to Byzantium Empire versus the Viking age.

将会有很好的历史书，我希望会有这些关于美利坚帝国的故事，关于其他听起来类似于拜占庭帝国与维京时代的故事。

It only lasted-

它只持续了——

Yeah.

是的。

1:59:05 Yeah.

是的。

…

……

1:59:06 three centuries.

三个世纪。

I mean, I suppose the good news is it can be done, right?

我的意思是，我想好消息是这是可以做到的，对吗？

1:59:07 Or it has been done.

或者已经完成了。

It has been done.

它已经完成了。

1:59:11 What gives you hope about the future, having looked at the deep history of us?

回顾了我们悠久的历史，是什么让您对未来充满希望？

What gives you hope?

是什么给了你希望？

During grad school, I was reading Frederick Douglass’ autobiography, and he said, “I could sit with Plato and Cicero, and they would not flinch.” You know, by which he meant that the great conversation was for everyone, no matter what your skin color, no matter what your level of income, and even no matter your intelligence, you know?

读研究生期间，我正在读弗雷德里克·道格拉斯的自传，他说：“我可以和柏拉图和西塞罗坐在一起，他们也不会退缩。”你知道，他的意思是，伟大的对话适合每个人，无论你的肤色如何，无论你的收入水平如何，甚至无论你的智力如何，你知道吗？

1:59:21 And I think that’s actually what, that’s why history comes alive for me, is because these are not alien people.

我认为这实际上就是历史对我来说栩栩如生的原因，因为这些人不是外星人。

You, you had asked how similar are ancient people to us psychologically.

你你问古代人的心理和我们有多么相似,.

1:59:57 You know, and what their goals were for li- And I think the short answer is they were identical to us, which is why we can understand them.

你知道，他们的目标是什么——我认为简短的答案是他们与我们相同，这就是为什么我们可以理解他们。

It’s why you should read things.

这就是为什么你应该阅读一些东西。

It’s why you should read the Meditations because this is not just some dry whatever talking to himself in a culture that you cannot understand and can never recreate.

这就是为什么你应该阅读《沉思录》，因为这不仅仅是在一个你无法理解、也永远无法重现的文化中自言自语的干巴巴的事情。

It’s a human talking about being human, you know?

这是一个人在谈论作为人，你知道吗？

And I think human nature has not changed, and I don’t think human nature will change.

而且我认为人性没有改变，我也不认为人性会改变。

So we are flawed and broken, and we’re…

所以我们是有缺陷和破碎的，而且我们……

that’s, that’s the human condition.

这就是人类的处境。

We’re gonna be flawed and broken.

我们将会有缺陷和破碎。

So I don’t think…

所以我不认为……

I actually think that’s the great, that’s the great question of history.

我实际上认为这是伟大的，这是历史的伟大问题。

If you wanna understand history, you have to know about human nature.

如果你想了解历史，你就必须了解人性。

What is our human nature?

我们的人性是什么？

2:00:48 If you think it’s a blank slate and we can kind of educate ourselves to a utopia or, you know, like the Marxists said, then okay.

如果你认为这是一张白纸，我们可以通过教育自己走向乌托邦，或者，你知道，就像马克思主义者所说的那样，那么好吧。

Hasn’t really worked out, but okay.

还没有真正解决，但还好。

If you believe we’re basically bad, there’s a whole set of things that come with that.

如果你认为我们基本上很糟糕，那么随之而来的就是一整套事情。

If you believe we’re basically good, there’s a whole set of…

如果你相信我们基本上很好，有一整套……

right?

对吗？

So, you won’t learn the appropriate lesson if you misdiagnose human nature.

所以，如果你误判了人性，你就不会学到适当的教训。

Yeah.

是的。

2:01:10 I think the diagnosis that you’re kinda hinting at is, is seemingly the most accurate one, which is we’re flawed.

我认为你所暗示的诊断似乎是最准确的，但我们是有缺陷的。

A mix of good, a mix of evil, capacity for both.

善恶混合，两者皆有。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

2:01:22 That’s right.

这是正确的。

I mean, I have to teach my kids to be kind.

我的意思是，我必须教我的孩子们要善良。

I don’t have to teach my kids to be unkind.

我不必教我的孩子不友善。

I mean, one of those is natural, and one is not.

我的意思是，其中一种是自然的，另一种则不是。

I think my kids can become kind, you know?

我认为我的孩子会变得善良，你知道吗？

The capacity.

容量。

The capacity.

容量。

Is there.

有没有。

Humans have the capacity for much greater things.

人类有能力做更伟大的事情。

2:01:37 But not perfection.

但并不完美。

It has to come outside of us.

它必须来自我们之外。

Well, what is it?

嗯，那是什么？

2:01:46 That line of, “All of us are in the gutter, but some of us are looking up at the stars.” And so you gotta teach as many of us to look up at the stars and dream.

那句话是：“我们所有人都在阴沟里，但我们中的一些人却仰望星空。”所以你必须教导我们许多人仰望星空并梦想。

Because once you allow yourself to dream of a better world, you try, you try.

因为一旦你允许自己梦想一个更美好的世界，你就会尝试，你就会尝试。

Like the Vikings did, go out there.

就像维京人一样，走出去。

Don’t…

不要……

try to not to murder your neighbor, but if you do, all of us have, of course.

尽量不要谋杀你的邻居，但如果你这样做了，当然，我们所有人都这么做了。

If you do, there’s Greenland.

如果你这样做的话，那就是格陵兰岛。

2:02:16 There’s Greenland.

有格陵兰岛。

There’s Greenland.

有格陵兰岛。

2:02:18 Thank you for everything you’ve done for the world.

感谢您为世界所做的一切。

Thank you for the podcast you put out there.

感谢您发布的播客。

Thank you for your incredible books, and thank you for the conversation today.

感谢您精彩的书籍，也感谢您今天的谈话。

Thank you.

谢谢。

2:02:27 I really appreciate the opportunity.

我真的很感激这个机会。

Thanks a lot.

多谢。

Thanks for listening to this conversation with Lars Brownworth.

感谢您收听与拉斯·布朗沃斯的对话。

2:02:31 To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on.

为了支持这个播客，请在描述中查看我们的赞助商，您还可以在其中找到联系我、提出问题、提供反馈等的链接。

And now, let me leave you with some words from the Volsunga Saga, a 13th century Icelandic prose epic that tells the story of the Volsunga clan, a legendary Norse dynasty of heroes and dragon slayers.

现在，让我向您介绍《沃尔松加传奇》中的一些话，这是一部 13 世纪的冰岛散文史诗，讲述了沃尔松加家族的故事，这是一个充满英雄和屠龙的传奇挪威王朝。

“Fear not death, for the hour of your doom is set, and none may escape it.” And another powerful quote from this saga is, “Better to fight and fall than to live without hope.” Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.

“不要害怕死亡，因为你的末日已经到来，没有人能逃脱它。”这个传奇故事中的另一句有力的名言是：“与其在没有希望的情况下生活，不如战斗并失败。”感谢您的收听，希望下次再见。