乔丹·彼得森：尼采、希特勒、上帝、精神变态、苦难与意义

The following is a conversation with Jordan Peterson.

以下是与乔丹·彼得森的对话。

00:00 His second time on this, The Lex Fridman Podcast.

他第二次参加 Lex Fridman 播客。

00:08 You have given a set of lectures on Nietzsche as part of the new Peterson Academy, and the lectures were powerful.

作为新彼得森学院的一部分，您做了一系列关于尼采的讲座，这些讲座很有影响力。

There’s some element of the contradictions, the tensions, the drama, the way you like, lock in on an idea, but then are struggling with that idea, all of that, that feels like it’s a Nietzschean.

有一些矛盾、紧张、戏剧性的元素，你喜欢的方式，锁定一个想法，但随后又与这个想法作斗争，所有这些，感觉就像是尼采式的。

Well, he’s a big influence on me stylistically and in terms of the way I approached writing, and also many of the people that were other influences of mine were very influenced by him.

嗯，他在风格上和我的写作方式上对我产生了很大的影响，而且许多对我有其他影响的人也深受他的影响。

00:26 So I was blown away when I first came across his writings.

所以当我第一次看到他的作品时，我就被震撼了。

They’re so intellectually dense that I don’t know if there’s anything that approximates that.

他们的智力如此之高，以至于我不知道是否有任何东西可以与他们相媲美。

Dostoevsky maybe, although he’s much more wordy.

也许是陀思妥耶夫斯基，尽管他更啰嗦。

Nietzsche is very succinct partly he was so ill because he would think all day he couldn’t spend a lot of time writing.

尼采非常简洁，部分原因是他病得很重，因为他整天都认为自己不能花很多时间写作。

And he condenses writings into very short while this Aphoristic style he had, and it’s really something to strive for.

他将作品浓缩成很短的文字，而他所拥有的警句风格，这确实是值得努力的事情。

And then he’s also an exciting writer like Dostoevsky and dynamic and romantic in that emotional way.

他也是一位像陀思妥耶夫斯基一样令人兴奋的作家，在情感上充满活力和浪漫。

And so it’s really something, and I really enjoyed doing that.

所以这真的很重要，我真的很喜欢这样做。

I did that lecture that you described, that lecture series is on the first half of Beyond Good and Evil, which is a stunning book.

我做了你所描述的那个讲座，该系列讲座是《超越善恶》的前半部分，这是一本令人惊叹的书。

And that was really fun to take pieces of it and then to describe what they mean and how they’ve echoed across the decades since he wrote them.

摘取其中的一些片段，然后描述它们的含义以及自他写下它们以来的几十年里它们是如何产生回响的，这真的很有趣。

And yeah, it’s been great.

是的，这很棒。

Taking each sentence seriously and deconstructing it and really struggling with it.

认真对待每句话并解构它，并真正与之斗争。

01:40 I think underpinning that approach to writing requires deep respect for the person.

我认为支撑这种写作方法需要对人的深深尊重。

I think if we approach writing with that kind of respect, you can take Orwell, you can take a lot of writers and really dig in on singular sentences.

我认为，如果我们以这种尊重的态度来写作，你可以像奥威尔那样，你可以像很多作家一样，真正深入研究单一的句子。

Yeah, well, those are the great writers because the greatest writers virtually everything they wrote is worth attending to.

是的，这些都是伟大的作家，因为最伟大的作家几乎他们写的所有东西都值得关注。

02:01 And I think Nietzsche is in some ways the ultimate exemplar of that because often when I read a book, I’ll mark one way or another, I often fold the corner of the page over to indicate something that I’ve found that’s worth remembering.

我认为尼采在某些方面是这方面的终极典范，因为当我读一本书时，我常常会以这种或那种方式进行标记，我经常将书页的一角折叠起来以表明我发现值得记住的东西。

I couldn’t do that with a book like Beyond Good and Evil because every page ends up marked.

对于像《超越善恶》这样的书，我无法做到这一点，因为每一页都被标记了。

And that’s in marked contrast, so to speak, to many of the books I read now where it’s quite frequently now that I’ll read a book and there won’t be an idea in it that I haven’t come across before.

可以说，这与我现在读的许多书形成了鲜明的对比，现在我经常读一本书，里面不会有我以前没有遇到过的想法。

And with a thinker like Nietzsche, that’s just not the case at the sentence level.

对于像尼采这样的思想家来说，句子层面的情况并非如此。

And I don’t think there’s anyone that I know of who did that to a greater extent than he did.

据我所知，我认为没有人比他做得更彻底。

02:53 So there’s other people whose thought is of equivalent value.

所以还有其他人的想法具有同等价值。

I’ve returned recently, and I’m going to do a course on to the work of this Romanian historian of religions, Mircea Eliade, who’s not nearly as well known as he should be, and whose work, by the way, is a real antidote to the postmodern, nihilistic, Marxist stream of literary interpretation that the universities as a whole have adopted.

我最近回来了，我要上一门关于罗马尼亚宗教历史学家米尔恰·伊利亚德（Mircea Eliade）的作品的课程，他的知名度远没有他应有的那么高，顺便说一句，他的作品是对整个大学所采用的后现代、虚无主义、马克思主义文学解释流的真正解毒剂。

And Eliade is like that too.

埃利亚德也是这样。

I used this book called The Sacred and the Profane quite extensively in a book that I’m releasing in mid-November, We Who Wrestle with God, and it’s of the same sort.

我在 11 月中旬发行的《我们与上帝摔跤的人》一书中广泛使用了这本书，名为《神圣与世俗》，也是同一类型。

It’s endlessly analyzable.

它是可以无限分析的。

Eliade walked through the whole history of religious ideas and he had the intellect that enabled him to do that.

埃利亚德经历了整个宗教思想的历史，他拥有使他能够做到这一点的智慧。

And everything he wrote is dreamlike in its density.

他所写的一切都如梦似幻。

So every sentence or paragraph is evocative in an image-rich manner.

因此，每一个句子或段落都以图像丰富的方式唤起人们的回忆。

And that also, what would you say deepens and broadens the scope.

而且，您所说的也加深和拓宽了范围。

03:59 That’s part of often what distinguishes writing that has a literary end from writing that’s more merely technical.

这通常是区分具有文学目的的写作和纯粹技术性写作的部分原因。

The literary writings have this imagistic and dreamlike reference space around them.

文学作品周围都有这种意象和梦幻般的参照空间。

It takes a long time to turn a complex image into something semantic.

将复杂的图像转化为语义的东西需要很长时间。

And so if you’re writing evokes deep imagery, it has a depth that can’t be captured merely in words.

因此，如果你的写作能唤起深刻的意象，那么它的深度是无法仅用言语来捕捉的。

And the great romantic poetic philosophers, Nietzsche is a very good example, Dostoevsky is a good example, so is Mircea Eliade, they have that quality and it’s a good way of thinking about it.

伟大的浪漫主义诗学哲学家，尼采是一个很好的例子，陀思妥耶夫斯基是一个很好的例子，米尔恰·埃利亚德也是如此，他们有这种品质，这是一种很好的思考方式。

It’s kind of interesting from the perspective of technical analysis of intelligence, and there’s a good book called The User Illusion, which is the best book on consciousness that I ever read.

从情报技术分析的角度来看，这有点有趣，有一本好书叫《用户幻觉》，这是我读过的关于意识的最好的书。

It explains the manner in which our communication is understandable in this manner.

它解释了我们的沟通是如何以这种方式被理解的。

So imagine that when you’re communicating something, you’re trying to change the way that your target audience perceives and acts in the world.

因此，想象一下，当您在交流某些内容时，您正在尝试改变目标受众对世界的感知和行为方式。

05:00 So that’s an embodied issue, but you’re using words which obviously aren’t equivalent to the actions themselves.

所以这是一个具体的问题，但你使用的词语显然不等同于行动本身。

You can imagine that the words are surrounded by a cloud of images that they evoke and that the images can be translated into actions.

你可以想象这些词语被它们所唤起的一团图像所包围，并且这些图像可以转化为行动。

And the greatest writing uses words in a manner that evokes images that profoundly affects perception and action.

最伟大的作品使用文字的方式会唤起深刻影响感知和行动的图像。

And so I would take the manner in which I act and behave, I would translate that into a set of images.

所以我会把我的行为方式和行为方式转化为一组图像。

My dreams do that for me, for example.

例如，我的梦想就为我做到了这一点。

Then I compress them into words.

然后我将它们压缩成文字。

I toss you the words, you decompose them, decompress them into the images and then into the actions.

我把文字扔给你，你分解它们，将它们解压成图像，然后变成动作。

And that’s what happens in a meaningful conversation.

这就是有意义的对话中发生的事情。

It’s a very good way of understanding how we communicate linguistically.

这是理解我们如何进行语言交流的好方法。

So if the words spring to the full visual complexity and then that can then transform itself into action.

因此，如果文字充满视觉复杂性，那么它就可以转化为行动。

And change in perception because-

观念的改变是因为——

Change in perception.

观念的改变。

06:01 Yeah.

是的。

Well, those are both relevant and it’s an important thing to understand because the classic empiricists make the presumption, and it’s an erroneous presumption that perception is a value-free enterprise.

嗯，这些都是相关的，理解这一点很重要，因为经典经验主义者做出了假设，而感知是一个无价值的企业是一个错误的假设。

06:02 And they assume that partly because they think of perception as something passive.

他们之所以这么认为，部分原因是他们认为感知是被动的。

You just turn your head and you look at the world and there it is.

你只要转过头，看看世界，它就在那里。

It’s like perception is not passive.

这就像感知不是被动的。

There is no perception without action ever, ever.

没有行动就没有感知，永远。

And that’s a weird thing to understand because even when you’re looking at something like your eyes are moving back and forth, if they ever stop moving for a tenth of a second, you stop being able to see.

这是一件理解起来很奇怪的事情，因为即使当你看着像你的眼睛来回移动的东西时，如果它们停止移动十分之一秒，你就无法看到。

So your eyes are jiggling back and forth just to keep them active.

所以你的眼睛会来回晃动，以保持活跃。

And then there’s involuntary movements of your eyes and then there’s voluntary movements of your eyes.

然后是眼睛的不自主运动，然后是眼睛的自主运动。

What you’re doing with your eyes is very much like what a blind person would do if they were feeling out the contours of a object.

你用眼睛所做的事情非常类似于盲人感知物体轮廓时所做的事情。

06:53 You’re sampling and you’re only sampling a small element of the space that’s in front of you, and the element that you choose to sample is dependent on your aims and your goals.

您正在采样，并且仅采样您面前空间的一小部分元素，并且您选择采样的元素取决于您的目的和目标。

So it’s value saturated.

所以它的价值已经饱和了。

And so all your perceptions are action predicated and partly what you’re doing when you’re communicating is therefore not only changing people’s actions, let’s say, but you’re also changing the strategy that they use to perceive.

因此，你所有的感知都是以行动为基础的，因此，在沟通时你所做的部分不仅改变了人们的行为，而且你还改变了他们用来感知的策略。

And so you change the way the world reveals itself for them.

所以你改变了世界向他们展示自己的方式。

See, this is why it’s such a profound experience to read a particularly deep thinker because you could also think of your perceptions as the axioms of your thought.

看，这就是为什么阅读一位特别深刻的思想家的作品是如此深刻的体验，因为你也可以将你的感知视为你思想的公理。

That’s a good way of thinking about it.

这是一个很好的思考方式。

A perception is like a…

一个感知就像一个……

what would you say?

你会说什么？

It’s a thought that’s so set in concrete that you now see it rather than conceptualize it.

这是一个如此具体的想法，以至于你现在可以看到它而不是概念化它。

A really profound thinker changes the way you perceive the world.

真正深刻的思想家会改变你感知世界的方式。

That’s way deeper than just how you think about it or how you feel about it.

这比你如何看待它或你如何感受它要深刻得多。

What about not just profound thinkers, but thinkers that deliver a powerful idea, for example, utopian ideas of Marx or utopian ideas, you could say dystopian ideas of Hitler?

不仅是深刻的思想家，而且是那些提出强大思想的思想家，例如马克思的乌托邦思想或乌托邦思想，你可以说希特勒的反乌托邦思想？

07:49 Those ideas are powerful and they can saturate all your perception with values and they focus you in a way where there’s only a certain set of actions.

这些想法是强大的，它们可以让你的所有感知都充满价值观，它们让你集中注意力，只需要采取一组特定的行动。

Yeah, right.

是的，对。

08:16 Even a certain set of emotions as well.

甚至某些特定的情绪也是如此。

And it’s intense and it’s direct, and they’re so powerful that they completely altered the perception and the words spring to life.

它是强烈的、直接的，它们是如此强大，以至于完全改变了人们的看法，词语变得栩栩如生。

Yeah, it’s like a form of possession.

是的，这就像一种占有形式。

08:27 So there’s two things you need to understand to make that clear.

因此，您需要了解两件事才能弄清楚这一点。

The first issue is that as we suggested or implied, that perception is action predicated, but action is goal predicated, the act towards goal.

第一个问题是，正如我们所建议或暗示的那样，感知是基于行动的，而行动是基于目标的，是朝着目标而采取的行动。

And these propagandistic thinkers that you described, they attempt to unify all possible goals into a coherent singularity.

你所描述的这些宣传思想家，他们试图将所有可能的目标统一成一个连贯的奇点。

And there’s advantages of that.

这也是有好处的。

There’s the advantage of simplicity, for example, which is a major advantage.

例如，简单性是一个主要优势。

And there’s also the advantage of motivation.

还有动力方面的优势。

So if you provide people with a simple manner of integrating all their actions, you decrease their anxiety and you increase their motivation.

因此，如果你为人们提供一种整合他们所有行为的简单方式，你就会减少他们的焦虑并增加他们的动力。

That can be a good thing if the unifying idea that you’ve put forward is valid, but it’s the worst of all possible ideas if you put forward an invalid, unifying idea, and then you might say, well, how do you distinguish between a valid unifying idea and an invalid unifying idea?

如果你提出的统一想法是有效的，那可能是一件好事，但如果你提出了一个无效的统一想法，那么这是所有可能的想法中最糟糕的，然后你可能会说，好吧，你如何区分有效的统一想法和无效的统一想法？

09:29 Now, Nietzsche was very interested in that, and I don’t think he got that exactly right.

现在，尼采对此非常感兴趣，但我认为他的观点并不完全正确。

But the postmodernists, for example, especially the ones, and this is most of them with the Neo-Marxist bent, their presumption is that the fundamental unifying idea is power, that everything’s about compulsion and force essentially, and that that’s the only true unifying ethos of mankind, which is, I don’t know if there’s a worse idea than that.

但是后现代主义者，尤其是后现代主义者，他们中的大多数都有新马克思主义倾向，他们的假设是，基本的统一思想是权力，一切本质上都是关于强迫和武力，这是人类唯一真正的统一精神，也就是说，我不知道是否还有比这更糟糕的想法。

I mean, there are ideas that are potentially as dangerous.

我的意思是，有些想法可能同样危险。

The nihilistic idea is pretty dangerous, although it’s more of a disintegrating notion than a unifying idea.

虚无主义的想法是相当危险的，尽管它更多的是一个瓦解的想法而不是一个统一的想法。

The hedonistic idea that you live for pleasure, for example, that’s also very dangerous.

例如，为享乐而活的享乐主义观念也是非常危险的。

But if you wanted to go for sheer pathology, the notion that, and this is Foucault in a nutshell and Marx for that matter, that power rules everything.

但如果你想追求纯粹的病态，那就是权力统治一切，简而言之就是福柯和马克思。

Not only is that a terrible unifying idea, but it fully justifies your own use of power.

这不仅是一个可怕的统一思想，而且完全证明了你自己使用权力的合理性。

10:25 And I don’t mean the power Nietzsche talks about.

我指的并不是尼采所说的力量。

His will to power was more his insistence that a human being is an expression of will rather than a mechanism of self-protection and security.

他的权力意志更多地是他坚持认为人类是意志的表达，而不是自我保护和安全的机制。

He thought of the life force in human beings as something that strived not to protect itself, but to exhaust itself in being and becoming.

他认为人类的生命力不是努力保护自己，而是在存在和变化中耗尽自己。

It’s like an upward oriented motivational drive even towards meaning.

这就像一种向上的动机，甚至是为了意义。

Now he called it the will to power, and that had some unfortunate consequences, at least that’s how it’s translated.

现在他称之为权力意志，这产生了一些不幸的后果，至少是这么翻译的。

But he didn’t mean the power motivation that people like Foucault or Marx became so hung up on.

但他并不是指像福柯或马克思这样的人如此执着的权力动机。

So it’s not power like you’re trying to destroy the other.

所以这并不是像你试图摧毁对方那样的权力。

11:06 It’s power, full flourishing of a human being, the creative force of a human being in that way.

它是力量，是人类的全面繁荣，是人类的创造力。

Yeah.

是的。

11:14 Well, you could imagine that…

好吧，你可以想象……

and you should, you could imagine that you could segregate competence and ability.

你应该，你可以想象你可以将能力和能力分开。

Imagine that you and I were going to work on a project, we could organize our project in relationship to the ambition that we wanted to attain, and we can organize an agreement so that you were committed to the project voluntarily and so that I was committed to the project voluntarily.

想象一下，你和我要从事一个项目，我们可以根据我们想要实现的雄心来组织我们的项目，并且我们可以组织一份协议，以便你自愿致力于该项目，以便我自愿致力于该项目。

So that means that we would actually be united in our perceptions and our actions by the motivation of something approximating voluntary play.

因此，这意味着我们实际上会通过近似自愿游戏的动机来统一我们的看法和行动。

Now, you could also imagine another situation where I said, here’s our goal and you better help me, or I’m going to kill your family.

现在，你也可以想象另一种情况，我说，这就是我们的目标，你最好帮助我，否则我会杀了你的家人。

Well, the probability is that you would be quite motivated to undertake my bidding.

嗯，很可能你会很积极地接受我的出价。

And so then you might say, well, that’s how the world works.

那么你可能会说，好吧，世界就是这样运转的。

It’s power and compulsion.

这是权力和强制。

12:09 But the truth of the matter is that you can force people to see things your way, let’s say, but it’s nowhere near as good as strategy even practically than the strategy that would be associated with something like voluntary joint agreement of pattern of movement strategy towards a goal.

但问题的真相是，你可以强迫人们以你的方式看待事物，但它远不如策略，甚至实际上比与诸如实现目标的运动策略模式的自愿联合协议相关的策略更好。

See, this is such an important thing to understand because it helps you start to understand the distinction between a unifying force that’s based on power and compulsion, and one that is much more in keeping, I would say with the ethos that governs western societies, free western societies, there’s really a qualitative difference, and it’s not some morally relativistic illusion.

看，这是一件需要理解的重要事情，因为它可以帮助你开始理解一种基于权力和强迫的统一力量与一种更符合西方社会、自由西方社会的精神的统一力量之间的区别，我想说，这确实是一个质的差异，而不是某种道德上的相对主义幻觉。

If we just look at the nuance of Nietzsche’s thought, the idea he first introduced in Thus Spoke Zarathustra of the Übermensch.

如果我们只看尼采思想的细微差别，他在《超人的查拉图斯特拉如是说》中首次提出了这个想法。

12:55 That’s another one that’s very easy to misinterpret because it sounds awfully a lot like it’s about power.

这是另一个很容易被误解的问题，因为它听起来很像是关于权力的。

For example, in the 20th century, it was misrepresented and co-opted by Hitler to advocate for the extermination of the inferior non-Aryan races.

例如，在20世纪，它被希特勒歪曲和利用，主张消灭劣等的非雅利安人种。

And the dominion of the superior Aryans.

以及高级雅利安人的统治。

13:24 Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

Well, that was partly because Nietzsche’s work also was misrepresented by his sister after his death.

嗯，部分原因是尼采的作品在他去世后也被他的妹妹歪曲了。

But I also think that there’s a fundamental flaw in that Nietzschean conceptualization.

但我也认为尼采的概念化存在一个根本缺陷。

So Nietzsche of course, famously announced the death of God, but he did that in a manner that was accompanied by dire warnings like Nietzsche said, because people tend to think of that as a triumphalist statement.

因此，尼采当然以著名的方式宣布了上帝之死，但他这样做的方式却伴随着尼采所说的可怕警告，因为人们倾向于认为这是一种必胜主义的声明。

But Nietzsche actually said that he really said something like the unifying ethos under which we’ve organized ourselves psychologically and socially has now been fatally undermined by, well, by the rationalist proclivity, by the empiricist proclivity.

但尼采实际上说过，他确实说过类似我们在心理和社会上组织自己的统一精神现在已经被理性主义倾向和经验主义倾向致命地破坏了。

There’s a variety of reasons.

原因有很多种。

Mostly it was conflict between the enlightenment view, let’s say, and the classic religious view, and that there will be dire consequences for that.

可以说，这主要是启蒙运动观点与经典宗教观点之间的冲突，而这将会带来可怕的后果。

And Nietzsche knew like Dostoevsky knew that, see, there’s a proclivity for the human psyche and for human societies to move towards something approximating a unity because the cost of disunity is high.

尼采知道，就像陀思妥耶夫斯基知道的那样，人类心灵和人类社会有一种趋向于接近统一的倾向，因为不统一的成本很高。

14:33 Fractionation of your goals, so that means you’re less motivated to move forward than you might be because there’s many things competing for your attention.

你的目标分散，这意味着你前进的动力比你可能的要低，因为有很多事情在争夺你的注意力。

And also anxiety, because anxiety actually signals something like goal conflict.

还有焦虑，因为焦虑实际上预示着目标冲突之类的事情。

So there’s an inescapable proclivity of value systems to unite.

因此，价值体系存在不可避免的联合倾向。

Now, if you kill the thing that’s uniting them, that’s the death of God, they either fractionate and you get confusion, anxiety and hopelessness, or you get social disunity or and you get social disunity or something else arises out of the abyss to constitute that unifying force.

现在，如果你杀死了将他们团结在一起的东西，那就是上帝的死亡，他们要么会分裂，你会感到困惑、焦虑和绝望，要么你会得到社会不团结，要么你会得到社会不团结，或者其他东西从深渊中升起，构成团结的力量。

And Nietzsche said specifically that he believed that one of those manifestations would be that of communism and that that would kill…

尼采特别表示，他相信这些表现之一就是共产主义，这会杀死……

he said this in Will to Power, that that would kill tens of millions of people in the upcoming 20th century.

他在《权力意志》中说过，这将在即将到来的 20 世纪杀死数千万人。

15:28 He could see that coming 50 years earlier.

他早在 50 年前就预见到了这一点。

And Dostoevsky did the same thing in his book, Demons.

陀思妥耶夫斯基在他的著作《恶魔》中也做了同样的事情。

So this is the thing that the areligious have to contend with.

所以这是宗教人士必须面对的事情。

It’s a real conundrum because I mean, you could dispute the idea that our value systems tend towards a unity and society does as well because otherwise we’re disunified.

这是一个真正的难题，因为我的意思是，你可能会质疑我们的价值体系趋于统一、社会也趋于统一的观点，否则我们就会不统一。

But the cost of that disunity, as I said, is goal confusion, anxiety, and hopelessness.

但正如我所说，这种不团结的代价是目标混乱、焦虑和绝望。

So it’s like a real cost.

所以这就像一个真实的成本。

So you could dispense with the notion of unity altogether, and the Postmodernists did that to some degree, but they pulled off a sleight of hand too where they replaced it by power.

因此，你可以完全放弃统一的概念，后现代主义者在某种程度上做到了这一点，但他们也耍了一些花招，用权力取而代之。

Now, Nietzsche did.

现在，尼采做到了。

He’s responsible for that to some degree because Nietzsche said with his conception of the Übermensch, let’s say, is that human beings would have to create their own values because the value structure that had descended from on high was now shunted aside.

他在某种程度上对此负有责任，因为尼采在他的超人概念中说，人类必须创造自己的价值，因为从高处下降的价值结构现在被搁置一边。

16:23 But there’s a major problem with that, many major problems.

但这有一个大问题，很多大问题。

The psychoanalysts were the first people who really figured this out after Nietzsche, because imagine that we don’t have a relationship with the transcendental anymore that orients us.

精神分析学家是继尼采之后第一批真正弄清楚这一点的人，因为想象一下我们与引导我们的先验不再有关系。

Okay, now we have to turn to ourselves.

好吧，现在我们必须转向我们自己。

Now, if we were a unity, a clear unity within ourselves, let’s say, then we could turn to ourselves for that discovery.

现在，如果我们是一个统一体，我们内部是一个明确的统一体，那么我们就可以转向我们自己来寻找这个发现。

But if we’re a fractionated plurality internally, then when we turn to ourselves, we turn to a fractionated plurality.

但如果我们内部是一个分裂的多数，那么当我们转向自己时，我们就会转向一个分裂的多数。

Well, that was Freud’s observation.

嗯，这是弗洛伊德的观察。

It’s like, well, how can you make your own values when you’re not the master in your own house?

这就好像，如果你不是自己家里的主人，你怎么能制定自己的价值观呢？

17:04 You’re a war of competing motivations, or maybe you’re someone who’s dominated by the will to force and compulsion.

你是一场相互竞争的动机的战争，或者你可能是一个被强迫和强迫的意志所支配的人。

And so why do you think that you can rely on yourself as the source of values?

那么你为什么认为你可以依靠自己作为价值观的源泉呢？

And why do you think you’re wise enough to consult with yourself to find out what those values are or what they should be say in the course of a single life?

为什么你认为你有足够的智慧去咨询自己，找出这些价值观是什么，或者在你的一生中应该说些什么？

I mean, it’s difficult to organize your own personal relationship like one relationship in the course of your life, let alone to try to imagine that out of whole cloth you could construct an ethos that would be psychologically and socially stabilizing and last over the long run.

我的意思是，很难像一生中的一段关系一样组织你自己的个人关系，更不用说尝试想象你可以从整体上构建一种在心理和社会上稳定并长期持续的精神风气。

And of course, Marx people like that, the people who reduce human motivation to a single axis, they had the intellectual hubris to imagine that they could do that.

当然，像马克思这样的人，那些将人类动机简化为单一轴的人，他们在知识上傲慢地想象自己可以做到这一点。

Postmodernists are a good example of that as well.

后现代主义者也是一个很好的例子。

Okay.

好的。

17:55 But if we lay on the table, religion, communism, Nazism, they are all unifying ethos.

但如果我们摆在桌面上，宗教、共产主义、纳粹主义，它们都是统一的精神。

They’re unifying ideas, but they’re also horribly dividing ideas.

它们统一了思想，但也严重分裂了思想。

They both unify and divide.

它们既统一又分裂。

Religion has also divided people because in the nuances of how the different peoples wrestle with God, they have come to different conclusions, and then they use those conclusions that perhaps the people in power use those conclusions to then start wars, to start hatred, to divide.

宗教也分裂了人们，因为在不同的民族如何与上帝搏斗的细微差别中，他们得出了不同的结论，然后他们使用这些结论，也许当权者使用这些结论来发动战争，发动仇恨，分裂。

Yeah.

是的。

18:32 Well, it’s one of the key sub-themes in the gospels is the sub-theme of the Pharisees.

嗯，这是福音书的关键副主题之一，就是法利赛人的副主题。

And so the fundamental enemies of Christ in the gospels are the Pharisees and the scribes and the lawyers.

因此，福音书中基督的根本敌人是法利赛人、文士和律法师。

So what does that mean?

那么这意味着什么呢？

The Pharisees are religious hypocrites.

法利赛人是宗教伪善者。

The scribes are academics who worship their own intellect, and the lawyers are the legal minds who use the law as a weapon.

抄写员是崇拜自己才智的学者，而律师则是以法律为武器的法律头脑。

And so they’re the enemy of the Redeemer.

所以他们是救赎主的敌人。

That’s a subplot in the gospel stories, and that actually all means something.

这是福音故事中的一个次要情节，实际上这一切都有意义。

The Pharisaic problem is that the best of all possible ideas can be used by the worst actors in the worst possible way.

法利赛人的问题是，最好的想法可能被最糟糕的行为者以最糟糕的方式使用。

And maybe this is an existential conundrum, is that the most evil people use the best possible ideas to the worst possible ends.

也许这是一个存在主义难题，最邪恶的人用最好的想法达到最坏的目的。

And then you have the conundrum of how do you separate out, let’s say, the genuine religious people from those who use the religious enterprise only for their own machinations.

然后你就会遇到一个难题，比如说，你如何区分真正的宗教人士和那些仅利用宗教事业来达到自己的阴谋的人。

19:37 We’re seeing this happen online.

我们在网上看到这种情况发生。

One of the things that you’re seeing happening online, I’m sure you’ve noticed this, especially on the right wing psychopathic troll side of the distribution, is the weaponization of a certain form of Christian ideation.

你在网上看到的一件事，我相信你已经注意到了，尤其是在发行版的右翼精神​​病巨魔方面，就是某种形式的基督教观念的武器化。

And that’s often marked at least online by the presence of, what would you say, cliches like Christ is king, which has a certain religious meaning, but a completely different meaning in this sphere of emerging right wing pathology, “right wing”.

至少在网上，这常常以“基督为王”等陈词滥调的存在为标志，这具有一定的宗教含义，但在新兴的右翼病理学“右翼”领域具有完全不同的含义。

The political dimension isn’t the right dimension of analysis, but it’s definitely the case that the best possible ideas can be used for the worst possible purposes.

政治维度并不是正确的分析维度，但毫无疑问的是，最好的想法可能会被用于最糟糕的目的。

And that also brings up another specter, which is like, well, is there any reliable and valid way of distinguishing truly beneficial, unifying ideas from those that are pathological?

这也带来了另一个问题，那就是，是否有任何可靠且有效的方法来区分真正有益的、统一的想法和病态的想法？

And so that’s another thing that I tried to detail out in these lectures, but also in this new book, it’s like, how do you tell the good actors from the bad actors at the most fundamental level of analysis?

这是我试图在这些讲座中详细说明的另一件事，也是在这本新书中，就像，如何从最基本的分析层面区分好演员和坏演员？

And good ideas from the bad ideas, and you lecture on truth that Nietzsche also struggled with, so how do you know that communism is a bad idea versus it’s a good idea implemented by bad actors?

好的想法来自坏的想法，你讲授尼采也曾与之斗争的真理，那么你怎么知道共产主义是一个坏主意，而不是坏人实施的一个好主意？

Right.

正确的。

20:56 That’s a more subtle variant of the religious problem.

这是宗教问题的一个更微妙的变体。

And that’s what the communists say all the time, the modern day communists like, “Real communism has never been tried,” and you could say, I suppose with some justification, you could say that real Christianity has never been tried because we always fall short of the ideal mark.

这就是共产主义者一直说的，现代共产主义者喜欢说，“真正的共产主义从未被尝试过”，你可以说，我想有一定道理，你可以说真正的基督教从未被尝试过，因为我们总是达不到理想的标准。

My rejoinder to the communists is something like every single time it’s been implemented, wherever it’s been implemented regardless of the culture and the background of the people who’ve implemented it, it’s had exactly the same catastrophic consequences.

我对共产主义者的反驳是，每次实施它时，无论在哪里实施，无论实施它的人的文化和背景如何，它都会产生完全相同的灾难性后果。

It’s like, I don’t know how many examples you need of that, but I believe we’ve generated sufficient examples so that that case is basically resolved.

就像，我不知道你需要多少个例子，但我相信我们已经生成了足够的例子，这样这个问题就可以基本解决。

Now, the general rejoinder to that is it’s really something like, “Well, if I was in charge of the communist enterprise, the utopia would’ve come about,” but that’s also a form of dangerous pretense.

现在，对此的普遍反驳是，这实际上是这样的，“好吧，如果我负责共产主义事业，乌托邦就会出现”，但这也是一种危险的借口。

21:55 Part of the way…

一部分的方式...

See, that problem is actually resolved to some degree in the notion of…

看，这个问题实际上在某种程度上已经通过……的概念得到了解决。

in the developing notion of sacrifice that emerges in the western canon over thousands and thousands of years.

西方经典中几千年来不断发展的牺牲观念。

So one of the suggestions, for example, and this is something exemplified in the passion story, is that you can tell the valid holder of an idea because that holder will take the responsibility for the consequences of his idea onto himself.

例如，其中一个建议（这在激情故事中得到了例证）是，你可以告诉一个想法的有效持有者，因为该持有者将为其想法的后果承担责任。

And that’s why, for example, you see one way of conceptualizing Christ in the gospel story is as the ultimate sacrifice to God.

这就是为什么，例如，你会看到在福音故事中概念化基督的一种方式是作为对上帝的最终牺牲。

So you might ask, well, what’s the ultimate sacrifice?

所以你可能会问，最终的牺牲是什么？

And there are variants of the answer to that.

这个问题的答案有很多种。

One form of ultimate sacrifice is the sacrifice of a child, the offering of a child, and the other is the offering of the self.

最终牺牲的一种形式是孩子的牺牲，孩子的奉献，另一种形式是自我的奉献。

And the story of Christ brings both of those together because he’s the son of God that’s offered to God.

基督的故事将两者结合在一起，因为他是献给上帝的上帝之子。

22:52 And so it’s a marketable resolution of that tension between ultimate sacrifice, ultimate because once you’re a parent, most parents would rather sacrifice themselves than their children.

因此，这是解决最终牺牲之间紧张关系的一种市场化解决方案，最终是因为一旦你成为父母，大多数父母宁愿牺牲自己而不是孩子。

So you have something that becomes of even more value than yourself.

所以你拥有比你自己更有价值的东西。

But the sacrifice of self is also a very high order level of sacrifice.

但自我牺牲也是一种非常高层次的牺牲。

Christ is an archetype of the pattern of being that’s predicated on the decision to take…

基督是存在模式的原型，其基础是做出……的决定。

to offer everything up to the highest value, that pattern of self-sacrifice.

奉献一切以实现最高价值，即自我牺牲的模式。

And I think part of the reason that’s valid is because the person who undertakes to do that pays the price themselves.

我认为这是有效的部分原因是因为承诺这样做的人自己付出了代价。

It’s not externalized.

它没有外在化。

They’re not trying to change anyone else except maybe by example.

他们并不想改变任何人，除非以身作则。

It’s your problem.

这是你的问题。

Like Solzhenitsyn pointed that out too when he was struggling with the idea of good versus evil, and you see this in more sophisticated literature.

就像索尔仁尼琴在与善与恶的观念作斗争时也指出的那样，你可以在更复杂的文学中看到这一点。

23:51 In really unsophisticated literature or drama, there’s a good guy and the bad guy and the good guy’s all good, and the bad guy’s all bad.

在真正简单的文学或戏剧中，有好人和坏人，好人都是好人，坏人都是坏人。

And in more sophisticated literature, the good and bad are abstracted.

而在更复杂的文学中，好与坏都是抽象的。

You can think of them as spirits.

你可以把它们想象成灵魂。

And then those spirits possess all the characters in the complex drama to a greater or lesser degree and that battle is fought out both socially and internally.

然后，这些灵魂或多或少地占据了复杂戏剧中的所有角色，并且这场战斗是在社会和内部进行的。

In the high order religious conceptualizations in the West, if they culminate, let’s say in the Christian story, the notion is that battle between good and evil is fundamentally played out as an internal drama.

在西方的高阶宗教概念中，如果它们达到顶峰，比如说在基督教故事中，那么这个概念就是善与恶之间的战斗从根本上来说是作为一场内部戏剧上演的。

Yeah.

是的。

24:35 So for a religious ethos, the battle between good and evil is fought within each individual human heart.

因此，对于宗教精神来说，善与恶之间的斗争是在每个人心中进行的。

Right.

正确的。

24:44 It’s your moral duty to constrain evil within yourself.

抑制内心的邪恶是你的道德责任。

And while there’s more to it than that, because there’s also the insistence that if you do that, that makes you the most effective possible like warrior, let’s say, against evil itself in the social world, that you start with the battle that occurs within you in the soul, let’s say.

虽然事情远不止这些，因为人们坚持认为，如果你这样做，你就会成为最有效的战士，比方说，对抗社会世界中的邪恶本身，比方说，你从灵魂中发生的战斗开始。

The soul becomes the battleground between the forces of good and evil.

灵魂成为善恶力量之间的战场。

There’s an idea there too, which is if that battle is undertaken successfully, then it doesn’t have to be played out in the social world as actual conflict.

还有一个想法，那就是如果这场战斗成功进行，那么它就不必在社会世界中以实际冲突的形式上演。

You can rectify the conflict internally without it having to be played out as fate as Jung put it.

你可以在内部纠正冲突，而不必像荣格所说的那样将其视为命运。

So what would you say to Nietzsche who called Christianity the slave morality, and his critique of religion in that way was slave morality versus master morality, and then you put an Übermensch into that?

那么，你会对尼采说什么呢？他称基督教为奴隶道德，他以这种方式对宗教的批判是奴隶道德与主人道德的对立，然后你又将超人的观点融入其中？

Well see, I would say that the woke phenomenon is the manifestation of the slave morality that Nietzsche criticized and that there are elements of Christianity that can be gerrymandered to support that mode of perception and conception.

好吧，我想说，觉醒现象是尼采批评的奴隶道德的表现，并且基督教的某些元素可以被不公正地划分以支持这种感知和观念模式。

25:40 But I think he was wrong and he was wrong in his essential criticism of Christianity in that regard.

但我认为他错了，而且他在这方面对基督教的本质批评是错误的。

Now, it’s complicated with Nietzsche because Nietzsche never criticizes the gospel stories directly.

现在，尼采的情况很复杂，因为尼采从不直接批评福音故事。

What he basically criticizes is something like the pathologies of institutionalized religion.

他基本上批评的是制度化宗教的病态。

And I would say most particularly of the, what would you say, of the sort of casually too nice Protestant form, that’s a thumbnail sketch and perhaps somewhat unfair.

我想说的最特别的是，你会说什么，那种随意的太漂亮的新教形式，这是一个缩略图，也许有点不公平。

26:37 But given the alignment, let’s say, of the more mainstream Protestant movements with the woke mob, I don’t think it’s an absurd criticism.

但考虑到更主流的新教运动与觉醒暴徒的结盟，我不认为这是一个荒谬的批评。

It’s something like the degeneration of Christianity into the notion that good and harmless are the same thing, or good and empathic are the same thing, which is simply not true and far too simplified.

这就像基督教的堕落，认为善良和无害是同一件事，或者善良和同理心是同一件事，这根本不正确，而且过于简单化。

And I also think Nietzsche was extremely wrong in his presumption that human beings should take it to themselves to construct their own values.

我还认为尼采关于人类应该自行构建自己的价值观的假设是极其错误的。

I think he made a colossal error in that presumption.

我认为他在这个假设中犯了一个巨大的错误。

And that is the idea of the Übermensch, that the great individual, the best of us should create our own values.

这就是超人的理念，即伟大的个人、我们中最优秀的人应该创造我们自己的价值观。

Well, and I think the reason that he was wrong about that is that, so when God gives instructions to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, he basically tells them that they can do anything they want in the walled garden.

嗯，我认为他错误的原因是，当上帝在伊甸园里向亚当和夏娃发出指示时，他基本上告诉他们，他们可以在有围墙的花园里做任何他们想做的事。

27:20 So that’s the kind of balance between order and nature that makes up the human environment.

这就是构成人类环境的秩序与自然之间的平衡。

Human beings have the freedom vouchsafe to them by God to do anything they want in the garden except to mess with the most fundamental rule.

人类拥有上帝赋予他们的自由，可以在花园里做任何他们想做的事，除了扰乱最基本的规则。

So God says to people, “You’re not to eat of the fruit of the tree, of the knowledge of good and evil,” which fundamentally means there is an implicit moral order and you’re to abide by it.

所以上帝对人们说，“你们不可吃善恶树上的果子，”这从根本上意味着有一个隐含的道德秩序，你必须遵守它。

Your freedom stops at the foundation.

你的自由止于基础。

And you can think about that.

你可以考虑一下。

I’d be interested even in your ideas about this as an engineer, let’s say, is that there is an ethos that’s implicit in being itself, and your ethos has to be a reflection of that, and that isn’t under your control.

我什至对你作为一名工程师的想法感兴趣，比方说，存在本身隐含着一种精神，而你的精神必须反映这种精神，而这不在你的控制之下。

28:18 You can’t gerrymander the foundation because your foundational beliefs have to put you in harmony like musical harmony with the actual structure of reality as such.

你不能对基础进行不公正的划分，因为你的基本信念必须让你像音乐一样与现实的实际结构和谐相处。

So I can give you an example of that.

所以我可以给你举一个例子。

So our goal insofar as we’re conducting ourselves properly, is to have the kind of interesting conversation that allows both of us to express ourselves in a manner that enables us to learn and grow, such that we can share that with everyone who’s listening.

因此，只要我们行为得当，我们的目标就是进行一种有趣的对话，让我们双方都能以一种能够学习和成长的方式表达自己，这样我们就可以与每个倾听的人分享。

And if our aim is true and upward, then that’s what we’re doing.

如果我们的目标是真实且向上的，那么这就是我们正在做的事情。

Well, that means that we’re going to have to match ourselves to a pattern of interaction, and that’s marked for us emotionally.

嗯，这意味着我们必须使自己适应一种互动模式，这在情感上对我们有影响。

Like you and I both know this, if we’re doing this right…

就像你我都知道这一点，如果我们做得正确的话……

29:03 …marked for us emotionally.

……在情感上为我们留下了印记。

Like you and I both know this, if we’re doing this right, we’re going to be interested in the conversation.

就像你和我都知道的那样，如果我们做得正确，我们就会对对话感兴趣。

We’re not going to be looking at our watch.

我们不会看手表。

We’re not going to be thinking about what we’re aiming at.

我们不会去思考我们的目标是什么。

We’re just going to communicate.

我们只是来交流一下。

Now, the religious interpretation of that would be that we were doing something like making the redemptive logos manifest between us in dialogue, and that’s something that can be shared.

现在，对此的宗教解释是，我们正在做一些事情，比如让救赎标志在我们之间的对话中显现出来，这是可以分享的。

29:22 To do that, we have to align with that pattern.

为此，我们必须与该模式保持一致。

I can’t decide that there’s some arbitrary way that I’m going to play you.

我无法决定以某种武断的方式来扮演你。

I mean, I could do that if I was a psychopathic manipulator.

我的意思是，如果我是一个心理变态的操纵者，我就能做到这一点。

But to do that optimally, I’m not going to impose a certain A priori aim, let’s say, on our communication and manipulate you into that.

但为了以最佳方式做到这一点，我不会在我们的沟通中强加某种先验目标，并操纵你实现这一目标。

So the constraints on my ethos reflect the actual structure of the world.

因此，我的精神所受到的限制反映了世界的实际结构。

29:55 This is the communist presumptions.

这是共产主义的假设。

It’s like, we’re going to burn everything down and we’re going to start from scratch.

就像，我们要烧掉一切，然后从头开始。

And we’ve got these axiomatic presumptions, and we’re going to put them into place.

我们已经有了这些公理假设，我们将把它们付诸实施。

And we’re going to socialize people so they now think and live like communists from day one.

我们将让人们社会化，让他们从第一天起就像共产主义者一样思考和生活。

And human beings are infinitely malleable, and we can use a rational set of presuppositions to decide what sort of beings they should be.

人类具有无限的可塑性，我们可以使用一组理性的预设来决定他们应该成为什么样的存在。

30:17 The transhumanists are doing this too.

超人类主义者也在这样做。

It’s like, no, there’s a pattern of being that you have to fall into alignment with.

就像，不，有一种存在模式你必须与之保持一致。

I think it’s the pattern of being, by the way, that if you fall into alignment with, it gives you hope, it protects you from anxiety, and it gives you a sense of harmony with your surroundings and with other people.

顺便说一句，我认为这是一种存在模式，如果你与之保持一致，它会给你希望，它会保护你免受焦虑，它会给你一种与周围环境和其他人和谐的感觉。

And none of that’s arbitrary.

这些都不是任意的。

But don’t you think we both arrived to this conversation with rigid axioms?

但你不认为我们都是带着严格的公理来进行这次对话的吗？

30:39 Maybe we’re blind to them, but in the same way that the Marxists came with very rigid axioms about the way the world is and the way it should be.

也许我们对它们视而不见，但就像马克思主义者对世界如何以及应该如何的问题提出了非常严格的公理一样。

Aren’t we coming to that?

我们不是要这样吗？

Well, we definitely come to the conversation with a hierarchy of foundational axioms.

好吧，我们肯定是通过基本公理的层次结构来进行对话的。

30:54 And I would say the more sophisticated you are as a thinker, the deeper the level at which you’re willing to play.

我想说，作为一个思想家，你越成熟，你愿意参与的层次就越深。

So imagine first that you have presumptions of different depth.

因此，首先想象一下您有不同深度的假设。

There’s more predicated on the more fundamental axioms, and then that there’s a space of play around those.

更多的基于更基本的公理，然后围绕这些公理有一个发挥的空间。

31:17 And that space of play is going to depend on the sophistication of the player, obviously.

显然，游戏的空间将取决于玩家的成熟程度。

But those who are capable of engaging in deeper conversations talk about more fundamental things with more play.

但那些能够进行更深入对话的人会以更多的方式谈论更基本的事情。

Now, we have to come to the conversation with a certain degree of structure, because we wouldn’t be able to understand each other or communicate if a lot of things weren’t already assumed or taken for granted.

现在，我们必须以一定程度的结构进行对话，因为如果很多事情尚未假设或视为理所当然，我们将无法相互理解或沟通。

How rigid is the hierarchy of axioms that religion provides?

宗教提供的公理等级制度有多严格？

31:43 This is what I’m trying to understand, the rigidity of that hierarchy.

这就是我想要理解的，这种等级制度的僵化性。

It’s as rigid as play.

它就像游戏一样僵化。

Well, play is not rigid at all.

嗯，游戏一点也不僵化。

No, no, no, no, no, no.

不，不，不，不，不，不。

31:54 It’s got a rigidity.

它有一种刚性。

There’s some constraints.

有一些限制。

It took me about 40 years to figure out the answer to that question.

我花了大约 40 年的时间才找到这个问题的答案。

31:58 I’m serious about that.

我对此很认真。

It wasn’t a random answer.

这不是一个随机的答案。

So play is very rigid in some ways.

所以游戏在某些方面是非常严格的。

If you and I go out to play basketball or chess, there are rules and you can’t break the rules because then you’re no longer in the game.

如果你和我出去打篮球或下棋，有规则，你不能违反规则，因为那样你就不再参与游戏了。

But then there’s a dynamism within those rules that’s…

但这些规则中存在着一种活力……

Well, with chess, it’s virtually infinite.

嗯，对于国际象棋来说，它几乎是无限的。

I mean, I think, what is it?

我的意思是，我想，这是什么？

32:22 There’s more patterns of potential games on a chessboard than there are subatomic particles in the observable universe.

棋盘上潜在的游戏模式比可观测宇宙中的亚原子粒子还要多。

It’s an insane space.

这是一个疯狂的空间。

So it’s not like there’s not freedom within it.

所以这并不是说里面没有自由。

But it’s a weird paradox in a way, isn’t it?

但这在某种程度上是一个奇怪的悖论，不是吗？

Because music is like this too, is that there are definitely rules.

因为音乐也是如此，就是有一定的规则。

You can’t throw a basketball into a chess board and still be playing chess.

你不可能把篮球扔进棋盘而仍然在下棋。

But weirdly enough, if you adhere to the rules, the realm of freedom increases rather than decreasing.

但奇怪的是，如果你遵守规则，自由的境界反而会增加而不是减少。

32:54 I think you can make the same case for a playful conversation.

我认为你可以用同样的方式来进行有趣的对话。

It’s like we’re playing by certain rules and a lot of them are implicit, but that doesn’t mean that…

就好像我们在遵守某些规则，其中很多规则都是隐含的，但这并不意味着......

It might mean the reverse of constraint.

这可能意味着约束的相反。

Because in this seminar, for example, that I was referring to, the Exodus Seminar and then the Gospel Seminar, everybody in this seminar, there’s about eight of us, played fair.

因为在这个研讨会中，例如，我指的是出埃及记研讨会，然后是福音研讨会，这个研讨会上的每个人，大约有我们八个人，公平竞争。

33:16 Nobody used power.

没有人使用权力。

Nobody tried to prove they were right.

没有人试图证明他们是对的。

They put forward their points, but they were like, “Here’s a way of looking at that.

他们提出了自己的观点，但他们说，“这是一种看待这个问题的方式。

Assess it.” They were also doing it genuinely.

评估一下。”他们也是真心实意地做的。

It’s like, this is what I’ve concluded about say this story.

就像，这就是我对这个故事的结论。

And I’m going to make a case for it, but I’d like to hear what you have to say because maybe you can change it, you can extend it, you can find a flaw in it.

我将为此提出一个理由，但我想听听你要说什么，因为也许你可以改变它，你可以扩展它，你可以找到其中的缺陷。

33:41 Well, that’s a conversation that has flow and that’s engaging and that other people will listen to as well.

嗯，这是一场流畅、引人入胜的对话，其他人也会倾听。

See, I think that one of the things that we can conclude now, and we can do this even from a neuroscientific basis, is that that sense of engaged meaning is a marker not only for the emergence of harmony between you and your environment, but for the emergence of that harmony in a way that is developmentally rich, that moves you upward towards…

看，我认为我们现在可以得出的结论之一，我们甚至可以从神经科学的基础上做到这一点，那就是，那种参与意义的感觉不仅是你和你的环境之间出现和谐的标志，而且是以一种发展丰富的方式出现这种和谐的标志，它使你向上迈向……

34:08 What would you say?

你会说什么？

Well, I think towards a more effective entropic state.

嗯，我认为朝着更有效的熵状态发展。

That’s actually the technical answer to that.

这实际上是技术上的答案。

But it makes you more than you are, and there’s a directionality in that.

但它让你超越了自己，而且有一个方向性。

The reason I like talking about communism because it has clearly been shown as a set of ideas to be destructive to humanity.

我之所以喜欢谈论共产主义，是因为它已被明确地展示为一套对人类具有破坏性的思想。

34:20 But I would like to understand from an engineering perspective the characteristics of communism versus religion where you could identify religious thought is going to lead to a better human being, a better society and communist Marxist thought does not.

但我想从工程学的角度理解共产主义与宗教的特征，你可以确定宗教思想将带来更好的人类、更好的社会，而共产主义马克思主义思想则不会。

34:49 Because there’s ambiguity, there’s room for play in communism and Marxism, because they had a utopian sense of where everybody’s headed, don’t know how it’s going to happen.

因为共产主义和马克思主义存在模糊性，所以有发挥的空间，因为他们对每个人的前进方向有一种乌托邦感，不知道它会如何发生。

Maybe revolution is required.

也许需要革命。

But after the revolution is done, we’ll figure it out.

但革命完成后，我们就会找到答案。

And there’s an underlying assumption that maybe human beings are good and they’ll figure it out once you remove the oppressor.

有一个潜在的假设，也许人类是善良的，一旦你消除了压迫者，他们就会明白这一点。

35:11 I mean, all these ideas, until you put them into practice, it can be quite convincing if you were in the 19th century.

我的意思是，所有这些想法，在你将它们付诸实践之前，如果你生活在 19 世纪，那是相当有说服力的。

If I was reading, which is fascinating, the 19th century produced such powerful ideas, Marx and Nietzsche.

如果我在读的话，这很有趣，十九世纪产生了如此强大的思想，马克思和尼采。

Fascism too, for that matter.

就此而言，法西斯主义也是如此。

Fascism.

法西斯主义。

35:29 So if I was sitting there, especially if I’m feeling shitty about myself, a lot of these ideas are pretty powerful as a way to plug the nihilist hole.

因此，如果我坐在那里，尤其是当我对自己感到很糟糕时，很多这些想法都非常有效，可以作为填补虚无主义漏洞的方法。

Yeah, right, absolutely.

是的，对，绝对是。

35:42 Well, and some of them may actually have an appropriate scope of application.

嗯，其中一些实际上可能有适当的应用范围。

It could be that some of the foundational axioms of communism, socialism/communism, are actually functional in a sufficiently small social group, maybe a tribal group even.

共产主义、社会主义/共产主义的一些基本公理可能实际上在一个足够小的社会群体中发挥作用，甚至可能是一个部落群体。

I’m not sure this is correct, but I have a suspicion that the pervasive attractiveness of some of the radical left ideas that we’re talking about are pervasive precisely because they are functional within say families, but also within the small tribal groups that people might’ve originally evolved into.

我不确定这是否正确，但我怀疑我们正在谈论的一些激进左派思想的普遍吸引力之所以普遍存在，正是因为它们在家庭中发挥作用，而且在人们最初可能进化成的小部落群体中也发挥作用。

36:19 And that once we become civilized, so we produce societies that are united even among people who don’t know one another, different principles have to apply as a consequence of scale.

一旦我们变得文明，我们就会创造出即使在彼此不认识的人之间也团结一致的社会，由于规模的原因，必须应用不同的原则。

So that’s partly an engineering response, but I think there’s a deeper way of going after the communist problem.

所以这在一定程度上是一种工程反应，但我认为还有更深层的方法来解决共产主义问题。

So I think part of the fundamental problem with the communist axioms is the notion that the world of complex social interactions can be simplified sufficiently so that centralized planning authorities can deal with it.

因此，我认为共产主义公理的部分根本问题在于，复杂的社会互动世界可以被充分简化，以便中央计划当局能够处理它。

36:54 And I think the best way to think about the free exchange rejoinder to that presumption is no, the sum total of human interactions in a large civilization are so immense that you need a distributed network of cognition in order to compute the proper way forward.

我认为思考自由交换对这一假设的反驳的最佳方式是“不”，一个大型文明中人类互动的总和是如此巨大，以至于你需要一个分布式认知网络来计算正确的前进方向。

And so what you do is you give each actor their domain of individual choice so that they can maximize their own movement forward.

所以你要做的就是给每个演员他们个人选择的范围，这样他们就可以最大限度地发挥自己的进步。

37:18 And you allow the aggregate direction to emerge from that rather than trying to impose it from the top down, which I think is computationally impossible.

你允许总体方向从中出现，而不是试图从上到下强加它，我认为这在计算上是不可能的。

So that might be one engineering reason why the communist solution doesn’t work.

因此，这可能是共产主义解决方案行不通的工程原因之一。

Like I read in Solzhenitsyn, for example, that the Central Soviet authorities often had to make 200 pricing decisions a day.

例如，就像我在《索尔仁尼琴》中读到的那样，苏联中央当局经常每天必须做出 200 项定价决策。

Now, if you’ve ever started a business or created a product and had to wrestle with the problem of pricing, you’d become aware of just how intractable that is.

现在，如果您曾经创办过一家企业或创建过一种产品，并且不得不努力解决定价问题，您就会意识到这是多么棘手。

37:52 How do you calculate worth?

你如何计算价值？

Well, there’s the central existential problem of life.

嗯，这是生命的核心存在问题。

How do you calculate worth?

你如何计算价值？

It’s not something like a central authority can sit down and just manage.

这不是一个中央机构可以坐下来管理的事情。

There is a lot of inputs that go into a pricing decision.

定价决策需要考虑很多因素。

And the free market answer to that is something like, well, if you get the price right, people will buy it and you’ll survive.

自由市场对此的回答是，如果你的价格合适，人们就会购买它，你就会生存下来。

This is a fascinating way to describe how ideas fail.

这是描述想法如何失败的一种有趣的方式。

38:14 So communism perhaps fails because just like with people who believe the earth is flat, when you look outside, it looks flat, but you can’t see beyond the horizon, I guess.

所以共产主义也许会失败，因为就像那些相信地球是平的的人一样，当你向外看时，它看起来是平的，但我猜你看不到地平线以外的地方。

In the same way with communism, communism seems like a great idea in my family and people I love, but it doesn’t scale.

就像共产主义一样，共产主义对于我的家人和我爱的人来说似乎是一个好主意，但它无法扩展。

And it doesn’t iterate, and that’s a form of scaling too.

而且它不会迭代，这也是一种扩展形式。

Right.

正确的。

38:41 Well, I mean, whatever ways it breaks down, it doesn’t scale.

嗯，我的意思是，无论它以何种方式崩溃，它都无法扩展。

And you’re saying religious though is a thing that might scale.

你说宗教虽然是一件可能规模化的事情。

I would say religious thought is the record of those ideas that have in fact scaled.

我想说宗教思想是那些实际上已经扩展的思想的记录。

38:49 Right, right.

对，对。

And iterated.

并迭代。

And iterated.

并迭代。

Does religious thought iterate?

宗教思想会迭代吗？

38:56 I mean, there’s a fundamental conservative aspect to religious thought, tradition.

我的意思是，宗教思想、传统有一个基本的保守方面。

This is why I like Mircea Eliade, for example, who I referred to earlier.

这就是为什么我喜欢米尔恰·埃利亚德（Mircea Eliade），我之前提到过她。

39:05 One of the things Eliade did and very effectively, and people like Joseph Campbell, who in some ways were popularizers of Eliade’s ideas and Carl Jung’s, what they really did was devote themselves to an analysis of those ideas that scaled and iterated across the largest possible spans of time.

埃利亚德所做的事情之一非常有效，像约瑟夫·坎贝尔这样的人在某种程度上是埃利亚德和卡尔·荣格思想的普及者，他们真正做的是致力于分析那些在尽可能大的时间跨度上扩展和迭代的思想。

39:27 And so Eliade and Jung, Erich Neumann and Campbell, they were looking and Campbell, they were looking at patterns of narrative that were common across religious traditions that had spanned millennia and found many patterns.

因此，伊利亚德和荣格、埃里希·诺伊曼和坎贝尔，他们正在寻找跨越数千年的宗教传统中常见的叙事模式，并发现了许多模式。

The hero’s myth, for example, is one of those patterns.

例如，英雄神话就是其中一种模式。

And it’s, I think, the evidence that it has its reflection in human neurophysiology and neuropsychology is incontrovertible.

我认为，它在人类神经生理学和神经心理学中的反映的证据是无可争议的。

39:49 And so these foundational narratives, they last.

因此，这些基本的叙述会持续下去。

They’re common across multiple religious traditions.

它们在多种宗教传统中都很常见。

They unite.

他们团结起来。

They work psychologically, but they also reflect the underlying neurophysiological architecture.

它们在心理上发挥作用，但也反映了潜在的神经生理学结构。

So I can give you an example of that.

所以我可以给你举一个例子。

So the hero myth is really a quest myth.

所以英雄神话实际上是一个探索神话。

And a quest myth is really a story of exploration and expansion of adaptation.

探索神话实际上是一个探索和扩展改编的故事。

40:12 So Bilbo the Hobbit, he’s kind of an ordinary every man.

所以霍比特人比尔博，他是一个普通人。

He lives in a very constrained and orderly and secure world.

他生活在一个非常受限、有序且安全的世界里。

And then the quest call comes and he goes out and he expands his personality and develops his wisdom.

然后任务召唤来了，他就出去了，他扩展了他的个性并发展了他的智慧。

And that’s reflected in human neuropsychological architecture at a very low level, way below cognition.

这反映在人类神经心理结构的一个非常低的水平上，远低于认知。

So one of the most fundamental elements of the mammalian brain, and even in lower animal forms, is the hypothalamus.

因此，哺乳动物大脑（甚至低等动物）大脑最基本的元素之一就是下丘脑。

40:40 It’s the root of primary motivation.

这是主要动机的根源。

So it governs lust, and it regulates your breathing, and it regulates your hunger, and it regulates your thirst, and it regulates your temperature.

所以它控制欲望，它调节你的呼吸，它调节你的饥饿，它调节你的口渴，它调节你的体温。

Like really low level biological necessities are regulated by the hypothalamus.

就像真正低水平的生物必需品是由下丘脑调节的。

When you get hungry, it’s the hypothalamus.

当你感到饥饿时，是下丘脑的作用。

When you’re activated in a defensively aggressive manner, that’s the hypothalamus.

当你以防御攻击的方式被激活时，这就是下丘脑。

41:04 Half the hypothalamus is the origin of the dopaminergic tracts, and they subsume exploration.

下丘脑的一半是多巴胺能束的起源，它们包含探索。

And so you could think of the human motivational reality as a domain that’s governed by axiomatic motivational states, love, sex, defensive aggression, hunger, and another domain that’s governed by exploration.

因此，你可以将人类动机现实视为一个受公理动机状态、爱、性、防御性攻击、饥饿和另一个受探索支配的领域。

And the rule would be something like when your basic motivational states are sated, explore.

规则就像是当你的基本动机状态满足时，探索。

41:32 And that’s not cognitive.

这不是认知。

Like I said, this is deep, deep brain architecture.

就像我说的，这是很深很深的大脑结构。

It’s extraordinarily ancient.

它非常古老。

And the exploration story is something like go out into the unknown and take the risks because the information that you discover and the skills you develop will be worthwhile, even in sating the basic motivational drives.

探索故事就像是进入未知世界并承担风险，因为你发现的信息和你发展的技能将是值得的，即使满足基本的动机驱动力。

And then you want to learn to do that in a iterative manner so it sustains across time, and you want to do it in a way that unites you with other people.

然后你想要学习以迭代的方式做到这一点，以便它能够随着时间的推移而持续，并且你想要以一种将你与其他人团结起来的方式来做到这一点。

42:03 And there’s a pattern to that, and I do think that’s the pattern that we strive to encapsulate in our deep religious narratives.

这是有一个模式的，我确实认为这就是我们努力在我们深刻的宗教叙事中体现的模式。

And I think that in many ways we’ve done that successfully.

我认为我们在很多方面都成功做到了这一点。

What is the believe in God, how does that fit in?

什么是对神的信仰，它是如何适应的？

42:13 What does it mean to believe in God?

信神是什么意思？

Okay, so in one of the stories that I cover in We Who Wrestle with God, which I only recently begun to take apart say in the last two years, is the story of Abraham.

好吧，我在《与上帝摔跤的人》一书中报道的一个故事是亚伯拉罕的故事，这是我最近两年才开始拆解的。

42:21 It’s a very cool story, and it’s also related, by the way, to your question about what makes communism wrong.

这是一个非常酷的故事，顺便说一句，它也与你关于共产主义为何错误的问题有关。

And Dostoevsky knew this.

陀思妥耶夫斯基知道这一点。

Not precisely the Abraham story, but the same reason.

不完全是亚伯拉罕的故事，但原因相同。

In Notes from Underground, Dostoevsky made a very telling observation.

在《地下手记》中，陀思妥耶夫斯基做了一个非常有说服力的观察。

42:47 So he speaks in the voice of a cynical nihilistic and bitter bureaucrat who’s been a failure, who’s talking cynically about the nature of human beings, but also very accurately.

因此，他以一个愤世嫉俗的虚无主义和痛苦的官僚的口吻说话，他是一个失败者，他在愤世嫉俗地谈论人类的本质，但也非常准确。

And one of the things he points out with regards to modern utopianism is that human beings are very strange creatures.

他针对现代乌托邦主义指出的一件事是，人类是非常奇怪的生物。

43:04 And that if you gave them what the socialist utopians want to give them, so let’s say all your needs are taken care of, all your material needs are taken care of and even indefinitely, Dostoevsky’s claim was, well, you don’t understand human beings very well.

如果你给了他们社会主义乌托邦想要给他们的东西，那么假设你所有的需求都得到了照顾，你所有的物质需求都得到了照顾，甚至无限期地得到照顾，陀思妥耶夫斯基的主张是，好吧，你不太了解人类。

Because if you put them in an environment that was that comfortable, they would purposefully go insane just to break it into bits just so something interesting would happen.

因为如果你把他们放在一个那么舒适的环境中，他们会故意变得疯狂，只是为了把它分解成碎片，这样就会发生一些有趣的事情。

43:28 Right.

正确的。

And he says it’s the human proclivity to curse and complain.

他说这是人类的咒骂和抱怨倾向。

He says this in quite a cynic and caustic manner, but he’s pointing to something deep, which is that we’re not built for comfort and security.

他以相当愤世嫉俗和刻薄的方式说这句话，但他指出了一些深层的东西，那就是我们并不是为了舒适和安全而建造的。

We’re not infants.

我们不是婴儿。

We’re not after satiation.

我们不追求满足。

So then you might ask, well, what the hell are we after then?

那么你可能会问，那么，我们到底在追求什么？

That’s what the Abraham story addresses.

这就是亚伯拉罕的故事所要解决的问题。

Abraham is the first true individual in the biblical narrative.

亚伯拉罕是圣经叙述中第一个真正的个体。

43:55 So you could think about his story as the archetypal story of the developing individual.

所以你可以把他的故事视为个人成长的典型故事。

So you said, well, what’s God?

所以你说，那么，上帝是什么？

Well, in the Abraham story, God has characterized a lot of different ways in the classic religious texts.

嗯，在亚伯拉罕的故事中，上帝在经典宗教文本中以许多不同的方式描述了这一点。

Like the Bible is actually a compilation of different characterizations of the divine with the insistence that they reflect an underlying unity.

就像圣经实际上是神的不同特征的汇编，并坚持认为它们反映了潜在的统一性。

In the story of Abraham, the divine is the call to adventure.

在亚伯拉罕的故事中，神圣是冒险的召唤。

44:21 So Abraham has the socialist utopia at hand.

因此，亚伯拉罕已经拥有了社会主义乌托邦。

He’s from a wealthy family, and he has everything he needs.

他来自一个富裕的家庭，他拥有他需要的一切。

And he actually doesn’t do anything until he’s in his 70s.

事实上，他直到 70 多岁才做任何事情。

Now, hypothetically, people in those times lived much longer.

现在，假设那个时代的人们寿命更长。

But a voice comes to Abraham and it tells him something very specific.

但是亚伯拉罕听到一个声音，告诉他一些非常具体的事情。

It says, “Leave your zone of comfort.

它说：“离开你的舒适区。

Leave your parents.

离开你的父母。

Leave your tent.

离开你的帐篷。

Leave your community.

离开你的社区。

Leave your tribe.

离开你的部落。

Leave your land.

离开你的土地。

Go out into the world.”

走出去，到外面的世界去。”

44:52 And Abraham thinks, well, why?

亚伯拉罕想，为什么呢？

I’ve got naked slave girls peeling grapes and feeding them to me.

我让裸体女奴剥葡萄并喂给我。

It’s like, what do I need an adventure for?

就像，我需要冒险做什么？

And God tells them, and this is the covenant, by the way, part of the covenant that the God of the Israelites makes with his people.

神告诉他们，顺便说一句，这是以色列人的神与他的子民所立之约的一部分。

It’s very, very specific.

这是非常非常具体的。

It’s very brilliant.

非常精彩。

He says, “If you follow the voice of adventure, you’ll become a blessing to yourself.”

他说：“如果你追随冒险的声音，你就会成为自己的祝福。”

45:18 So that’s a good deal because people generally live at odds with themselves.

所以这是一件好事，因为人们通常会与自己发生冲突。

And he says, God says, “That’s not all.

他说，神说：“这还不是全部。

You’ll become a blessing to yourself in a way that furthers your reputation among people and validly, so that you’ll accomplish things that were real and people will know it.

你会成为自己的祝福，从而提高你在人们中的声誉，并有效地提高你的声誉，这样你就会完成真实的事情，人们会知道这一点。

And you’ll be held high in their esteem and that will be valid.” So that’s a pretty good deal because social people would like to be regarded as of utility and worth by others.

他们会高度尊重你，这是合理的。”所以这是一个很好的交易，因为社会人士希望被他人视为有用和有价值。

45:49 And so that’s a good deal.

所以这是一个很好的交易。

And God says, “That’s not all.

神说：“这还不是全部。

You’ll establish something of lasting permanent and deep value.” That’s why Abraham becomes the father of nations.

你将建立一些具有持久和深刻价值的东西。”这就是亚伯拉罕成为万国之父的原因。

And finally, he caps it off and he says, “There’s a better element even to it.

最后，他总结道：“甚至还有更好的元素。

There’s a capstone.

有一个顶点。

You’ll do all three of those things in a way that’s maximally beneficial to everyone else.” And so the divinity in the Abrahamic story is making a claim.

你将以对其他人最大程度有利的方式做这三件事。”因此，亚伯拉罕故事中的神性正在做出主张。

46:14 He says, first of all, there’s a drive that you should attend to, so the spirit of adventure that calls you out of your zone of comfort.

他说，首先，你应该有一种动力，所以冒险精神会召唤你走出舒适区。

Now, if you attend to that and you make the sacrifices necessary to follow that path, then the following benefits will accrue to you.

现在，如果你关注这一点并做出必要的牺牲来走这条路，那么你将会获得以下好处。

Your life will be a blessing.

你的生活将是一种祝福。

Everyone will hold you in high esteem.

每个人都会非常尊重你。

You’ll establish something of permanent value, and you’ll do it in a way that’s maximally beneficial to everyone else.

你将建立一些具有永久价值的东西，并且你将以对其他人最大程度有利的方式做到这一点。

46:40 And so think about what this means biologically or from an engineering standpoint.

因此，从生物学或工程学的角度考虑这意味着什么。

It means that the instinct to develop that characterizes outward moving children, let’s say, or adults is the same instinct that allows for psychological stability, that allows for movement upward in a social hierarchy that establishes something iterable, and that does that in a manner that allows everyone else to partake in the same process.

这意味着，外向型儿童或成人的发展本能与允许心理稳定的本能是相同的本能，这种本能允许在建立可迭代的社会等级中向上移动，并且以允许其他人参与同一过程的方式实现这一点。

47:07 Well, that’s a good deal.

嗯，这很划算。

I can’t see how it cannot be true, because the alternative hypothesis would be that the spirit that moves you beyond yourself to develop, the spirit of a curious child, let’s say, what, is that antithetical to your own esteem?

我不明白这怎么可能是真的，因为另一种假设是，推动你超越自我发展的精神，一个好奇孩子的精神，比方说，什么，这与你自己的自尊是对立的吗？

Is that antithetical to other people’s best interest?

这是否与其他人的最大利益背道而驰？

Is it not the thing that increases the probability that you’ll do something permanent?

难道这不是增加你做永久性事情的可能性的事情吗？

That’s a stupid theory.

这是一个愚蠢的理论。

So God is a call to adventure with some constraints.

所以上帝是对冒险的召唤，但也有一些限制。

A call to true adventure.

召唤真正的冒险。

To true adventure.

真正的冒险。

True adventure.

真正的冒险。

47:40 Yeah.

是的。

And then that’s a good observation because that begs the question, what constitutes the most true adventure?

这是一个很好的观察，因为这引出了一个问题，什么才是最真实的冒险？

Well, that’s not fully fleshed out until, at least from the Christian perspective, let’s say, that’s not fully fleshed out until the gospels, because the Passion of Christ is the…

好吧，直到，至少从基督徒的角度来看，这才完全充实起来，比方说，直到福音书才完全充实，因为基督的受难是……

This is the perfectly reasonable way of looking at it.

这是看待它的完全合理的方式。

The Passion of Christ is the truest adventure of Abraham.

《基督受难记》是亚伯拉罕最真实的冒险经历。

48:07 That’s a terrible thing, A, because the passion story is a catastrophic tragedy, although it obviously has its redemptive elements.

这是一件可怕的事情，A，因为激情故事是一场灾难性的悲剧，尽管它显然有其救赎的元素。

But one of the things that’s implied there is that there’s no distinction between the true adventure of life and taking on the pathway of maximal responsibility and burden.

但其中暗示的一件事是，真正的人生冒险与承担最大责任和负担的道路之间没有区别。

And I can’t see how that cannot be true.

我不明白这怎么可能是真的。

Because the counter hypothesis is, well, Lex, the best thing for you to do in your life is to shrink from all challenge and hide, to remain infantile, to remain secure, not to ever push yourself beyond your limits, not to take any risks.

因为反假设是，好吧，Lex，你一生中最好的事情就是逃避所有挑战并躲藏起来，保持幼稚，保持安全，永远不要超越自己的极限，不要冒任何风险。

Well, no one thinks that’s true.

好吧，没有人认为这是真的。

So basically, the maximally worthwhile adventure could possibly be highly correlated with the hardest possible available adventure.

所以基本上，最有价值的冒险可能与最困难的冒险高度相关。

The hardest possible available adventure voluntarily undertaken.

自愿进行的最艰难的冒险。

Does it have to be voluntary?

必须是自愿的吗？

Absolutely.

绝对地。

How do you define voluntarily?

怎么定义自愿呢？

Well, here’s an example of that.

嗯，这是一个例子。

49:06 That’s a good question too.

这也是个好问题。

The night before the crucifixion, which in principle he knows is coming, he asks God to relieve him of his burden, and understandably so.

原则上他知道受难即将到来，在被钉十字架的前一天晚上，他请求上帝减轻他的负担，这是可以理解的。

I mean, that’s the scene famously in which he’s literally sweating blood because he knows what’s coming.

我的意思是，在那个著名的场景中，他确实在流血，因为他知道接下来会发生什么。

And the Romans designed crucifixion to be the most agonizing, humiliating, and disgusting possible death.

罗马人将钉十字架设计为最痛苦、最羞辱、最恶心的死亡方式。

Right.

正确的。

So there was every reason to be apprehensive about that.

因此我们完全有理由对此感到担忧。

49:41 And you might say, well, could you undertake that voluntarily as an adventure?

你可能会说，好吧，你能自愿将其作为一次冒险吗？

And the answer to that is something like, well, what’s your relationship with death?

答案是，你和死亡有什么关系？

That’s a problem you have to solve.

这是你必须解决的问题。

And you could fight it and you could be bitter about it.

你可以与之抗争，也可以为此感到痛苦。

And there’s reasons for that, especially if it’s painful and degrading.

这是有原因的，尤其是当它是痛苦和有辱人格的时候。

But the alternative is something like…

但另一种选择是……

Well, it’s what’s fleshed out in religious imagery always.

嗯，这总是在宗教意象中得到充实的。

50:07 It’s very difficult to cast into words.

很难用语言来表达。

It’s like, no, you welcome the struggle.

就像，不，你欢迎这场斗争。

That’s why I called the book, We Who Wrestle with God.

这就是为什么我把这本书称为《我们与上帝摔跤的人》。

You welcome the struggle.

你欢迎这场斗争。

And Lex, I don’t see how you can come to terms with life without construing it as something like, bring it on.

莱克斯，我不明白你如何能够接受生活而不把它理解为“加油”之类的东西。

Welcome the struggle.

欢迎奋斗。

I can’t see that there’s a limit to that.

我不认为这有什么限制。

It’s like, well, I welcome the struggle until it gets difficult.

就像，好吧，我欢迎斗争，直到它变得困难。

So there’s not a bell curve, like the struggle of moderation.

所以不存在像节制斗争那样的钟形曲线。

50:37 Basically, you have to welcome whatever as hard as it gets, and the crucifixion in that way is a symbol.

基本上，无论遇到什么困难，你都必须欣然接受，而以这种方式被钉十字架就是一种象征。

Of that.

那个。

50:48 Well, it’s worse than that in some ways because the crucifixion exemplifies the worst possible death.

嗯，从某些方面来说，这比那更糟糕，因为受难是最糟糕的死亡的例证。

But that isn’t the only element of the struggle.

但这并不是斗争的唯一因素。

Because mythologically, classically, after Christ’s death, he harrows hell.

因为从神话和古典角度来看，基督死后，他就在地狱里苦苦挣扎。

And what that means, as far as I can tell psychologically, is that you’re not only required, let’s say, to take on the full existential burden of life and to welcome it regardless of what it is and to maintain your upward aim despite all temptations to the contrary, but you also have to confront the root of malevolence itself.

据我从心理学角度来看，这意味着你不仅需要承担生活的全部生存负担，无论它是什么，都欢迎它，尽管有所有相反的诱惑，仍要保持向上的目标，但你还必须面对恶意本身的根源。

51:26 So it’s not merely tragedy.

所以这不仅仅是悲剧。

And I think the malevolence is actually worse.

我认为恶意实际上更严重。

The reason I think that is because I know the literature on post-traumatic stress disorder, and most people who encounter, let’s say, a challenge that’s so brutal that it fragments them, it isn’t mere suffering that does that to people.

我之所以这么认为，是因为我了解有关创伤后应激障碍的文献，而且大多数人遇到的挑战是如此残酷，以至于让他们支离破碎，对人们造成这种影响的不仅仅是痛苦。

It’s an encounter with malevolence that does that to people.

这是对人们造成的恶意的遭遇。

51:48 Their own sometimes often, by the way.

顺便说一句，有时他们自己的。

Soldier will go out into a battlefield and find out that there’s a part of him that really enjoys the mayhem, and that conceptualization doesn’t fit in well with everything he thinks he knows about himself and humanity.

士兵走进战场，会发现自己的一部分真的很享受混乱，而这种概念化与他认为自己所了解的关于自己和人类的一切并不相符。

And after that contact with that dark part of himself, he never recovers.

在与自己的黑暗部分接触之后，他再也没有恢复过来。

That happens to people, and it happens to people who encounter bad actors in the world too.

这种事发生在人身上，也发生在世界上遇到坏人的人身上。

52:15 If you’re a naive person and the right narcissistic psychopath comes your way, you are in mortal trouble because you might die, but that’s not where the trouble ends.

如果你是一个天真的人，而一个自恋的精神病患者出现在你面前，你就会遇到致命的麻烦，因为你可能会死，但这并不是问题的结束。

If there’s a young man in their 20s listening to this, how do they escape the pull of Dostoevsky’s Notes from Underground?

如果有一个20多岁的年轻人在听这首歌，他们该如何摆脱陀思妥耶夫斯基《地下手记》的吸引力呢？

52:25 With the eyes open to the world, how do they select the adventure?

睁开眼睛看世界，他们如何选择冒险？

So there’s other characterizations of the divine say in the Old Testament story.

因此，旧约故事中还有其他关于神的话的描述。

52:39 So one pattern of characterization that I think is really relevant to that question is the conception of God as calling and conscience.

因此，我认为与这个问题真正相关的一种表征模式是上帝作为呼召和良心的概念。

Okay, so what does it mean?

好吧，那这是什么意思呢？

It’s a description of the manner in which your destiny announces itself to you.

它描述了你的命运如何向你宣告。

I’m using that terminology, and it’s distinguishable say from Nietzsche’s notion that you create your own values.

我使用这个术语，它与尼采的“你创造自己的价值观”的观念不同。

53:09 It’s like part of the way you can tell that that’s wrong is that you can’t voluntarily gerrymander your own interests.

这就像你能看出这是错误的部分原因是你不能自愿地对自己的利益进行不公正的划分。

You find some things interesting, and that seems natural and autonomous, and other things you don’t find interesting and you can’t really force yourself to be interested in them.

你觉得有些事情很有趣，而且看起来很自然、自主，而另一些事情你觉得不有趣，你无法真正强迫自己对它们感兴趣。

So what is the domain of interest that makes itself manifest to you?

那么您感兴趣的领域是什么？

Well, it’s like an autonomous spirit.

嗯，这就像一种自主的精神。

It’s like certain things in your field of perception are illuminated to you.

就像你感知领域中的某些事物被照亮了一样。

53:39 You think, “Oh, that’s interesting.

你会想：“哦，这很有趣。

That’s compelling.

这很有说服力。

That’s gripping.” Rudolf Otto, who studied the phenomenology of religious experience, describe that as numinous.

这很扣人心弦。”研究宗教经验现象学的鲁道夫·奥托（Rudolf Otto）将其描述为超自然的。

The thing grips you because compelled by it, and maybe it’s also somewhat anxiety provoking.

这件事会因为被它强迫而抓住你，也许它也有点引发焦虑。

It’s the same reaction like a cat has to a dog.

这就像猫对狗的反应一样。

When the cat’s hair stands on end, that’s an awe response.

当猫的毛竖起来时，这是一种敬畏的反应。

And so there’s going to be things in your phenomenological field that pull you forward, compel you.

所以在你的现象学领域里会有一些东西拉着你前进，迫使你前进。

54:10 That’s like the voice of positive emotion and enthusiasm.

这就像积极情绪和热情的声音。

Things draw you into the world.

事物吸引你进入这个世界。

It might be love.

这可能就是爱。

It might be aesthetic interest.

这可能是审美兴趣。

It might be friendship.

这可能是友谊。

It might be social status.

这可能是社会地位。

It might be duty and industriousness.

这可能是责任和勤奋。

There’s various domains of interest that shine for people.

人们感兴趣的领域有很多。

That’s on the positive side.

这是积极的一面。

God is calling.

神在呼唤。

That would be akin to the spirit of adventure for Abraham.

这类似于亚伯拉罕的冒险精神。

But there’s also God as conscience, and this is a useful thing to know too.

但还有上帝作为良心，了解这一点也是有用的。

54:44 Certain things bother you.

有些事情让你烦恼。

They take root within you and they turn your thoughts towards certain issues.

它们在你内心扎根，并将你的想法转向某些问题。

Like there are things you’re interested in that you’ve pursued your whole life.

就像有些事情是你感兴趣的，并且你一生都在追求的。

There are things I’m interested in that I felt as a moral compulsion.

有些事情我感兴趣，我觉得这是一种道德上的冲动。

And so you could think and I think the way you can think about it technically is that something pulls you forward so that you move ahead and you develop.

所以你可以思考，我认为你可以从技术上思考它的方式是，有某种东西拉着你前进，这样你就会前进并发展。

55:11 And then another voice, this a voice of negative emotion, says while you’re moving forward, stay on this narrow pathway.

然后另一个声音，这是一种负面情绪的声音，告诉你，当你前进时，请留在这条狭窄的道路上。

And it’ll mark deviations, and it marks deviations with shame and guilt and anxiety, regret.

它会标记偏差，它会标记出带有羞耻、内疚、焦虑和遗憾的偏差。

And that actually has a voice.

这实际上有一个声音。

Don’t do that.

不要那样做。

Well, why not?

嗯，为什么不呢？

Well, you’re wandering off the straight narrow path.

好吧，你正在偏离笔直的狭窄道路。

So the divine marks the pathway forward and reveals it, but then puts up the constraints of conscience.

因此，神标记并揭示了前进的道路，但随后又设置了良心的约束。

And the divine in the Old Testament is portrayed not least as the dynamic between calling and conscience.

旧约中的神性不仅被描述为呼召与良心之间的动态关系。

What do you do with the negative emotions?

面对负面情绪你会做什么？

55:46 You didn’t mention envy.

你没有提到嫉妒。

There’s some really dark ones that can really pull you into some bad places, envy, fear.

有一些非常黑暗的东西真的会把你拉入一些糟糕的地方，嫉妒，恐惧。

Yeah, envy is a really bad one.

是的，嫉妒是一种非常糟糕的行为。

55:55 Pride and envy are among the worst.

骄傲和嫉妒是最糟糕的。

Those are the sins of Cain, by the way, in the story of Cain and Abel, because Cain fails because his sacrifices are insufficient.

顺便说一句，在该隐和亚伯的故事中，这些都是该隐的罪，因为该隐失败是因为他的牺牲不够。

He doesn’t offer his best.

他没有提供最好的。

And so he’s rejected and that makes him bitter and unhappy.

结果他被拒绝了，这让他感到痛苦和不高兴。

And he goes to complain to God, and God says to him two things.

他去向神抱怨，神对他说了两件事。

God tells him, “If your sacrifices were appropriate, you’d be accepted.” It’s a brutal thing.

上帝告诉他：“如果你的牺牲是适当的，你就会被接受。”这是一件残酷的事情。

It’s a brutal rejoinder.

这是一个残酷的反驳。

And he also says, “You can’t blame your misery on your failure.

他还说：“你不能把你的痛苦归咎于你的失败。

56:29 You could learn from your failure.

你可以从失败中吸取教训。

When you failed, you invited in the spirit of envy and resentment, and you allowed it to possess you.

当你失败时，你本着嫉妒和怨恨的精神邀请，并且允许它占据你。

And that’s why you’re miserable.” And so Cain is embittered by that response, and that’s when he kills Abel.

这就是你痛苦的原因。”因此该隐对这种反应感到愤怒，就在那时他杀死了亚伯。

You might say, well, how do you fortify yourself against that pathway of resentment?

你可能会说，那么，你如何增强自己抵抗怨恨的途径呢？

Part of classic religious practice is aimed to do that precisely.

经典宗教实践的一部分就是为了做到这一点。

What’s the antithesis of envy?

嫉妒的对立面是什么？

Gratitude.

感激。

That’s something you can practice.

这是你可以练习的。

And I mean, literally practice.

我的意思是，真正的练习。

I think envy is one of the biggest enemies for a young person because basically you’re starting from nowhere.

我认为嫉妒是年轻人最大的敌人之一，因为基本上你是从无到有的。

57:02 Life is hard.

生活很艰难。

You’ve achieved nothing.

你一无所获。

And you’re striving and you’re failing constantly because…

你不断地努力，却不断地失败，因为……

And you see other people whom you think aren’t having the same problem.

你会看到其他你认为没有同样问题的人。

Yeah, and they succeed.

是的，他们成功了。

57:21 And they could be your neighbor, they could be succeeding by a little bit, or somebody on the internet succeeding by a lot.

他们可能是你的邻居，他们可能取得了一点成功，或者互联网上的某个人取得了很大的成功。

And I think that that can really pull a person down.

我认为这确实会让人沮丧。

That kind of envy can really destroy a person.

这种嫉妒真的可以毁掉一个人。

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

是的，是的，绝对是。

57:34 Well, the gratitude element would be something like, well, yeah, you don’t know anything and you’re at the bottom, but you’re not 80.

嗯，感恩元素就像是，嗯，是的，你什么都不知道，你处于最底层，但你不是 80 岁。

One of the best predictors of wealth in the United States is age.

在美国，预测财富的最佳指标之一是年龄。

So then you might say, well, who’s got it better, the old rich guy or the young poor guy?

那么你可能会说，好吧，谁的情况更好，是老富翁还是年轻穷汉？

And I would say most old rich guys would trade their wealth for youth.

我想说，大多数老富翁都会用他们的财富换取青春。

So it’s…

所以这是……

58:03 Old rich guys would trade their wealth for youth.

老富翁会用自己的财富换取年轻人。

So it’s not exactly clear at all at any stage who’s got the upper hand, who’s got the advantage?

所以在任何阶段都根本不明确谁占上风、谁占优势？

And you could say, “Well, I’ve got all these burdens in front of me because I’m young and oh my God.” Or you could say, “Every dragon has its treasure.” And that’s actually a pattern of perception.

你可以说，“好吧，我面前有所有这些负担，因为我还年轻，天哪。”或者你可以说，“每条龙都有它的宝藏。”这实际上是一种感知模式。

I’m not saying that people don’t have their challenges.

我并不是说人们没有挑战。

They certainly do.

他们当然这样做。

But discriminating between a challenge and an opportunity is very, very difficult.

但区分挑战和机遇是非常非常困难的。

And learning to see a challenge as an opportunity, that’s the beginning of wisdom.

学会将挑战视为机遇，这是智慧的开始。

It’s interesting.

这很有趣。

58:36 I don’t know how it works.

我不知道它是如何运作的。

Maybe you can elucidate, but when you have envy towards somebody, if you just celebrate them, so gratitude, but actually as opposed to sort of ignoring and being grateful for the things you have, literally celebrate that person.

也许你可以解释一下，但是当你嫉妒某人时，如果你只是庆祝他们，那么感激，但实际上不是忽视并感激你所拥有的东西，而是真正地庆祝那个人。

It transforms …

它改变了……

It lights the way.

它照亮了道路。

I don’t know why that is exactly.

我不知道为什么会这样。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

59:01 The only reason you’re envious is because you see someone who has something that you want.

你嫉妒的唯一原因是因为你看到某人拥有你想要的东西。

Okay, so let’s think about it.

好吧，让我们考虑一下。

Well, first of all, the fact that they have it means that in principle, you could get it.

嗯，首先，他们拥有它的事实意味着原则上你可以获得它。

At least someone has.

至少有人有过。

So that’s a pretty good deal.

所以这是一笔非常划算的交易。

And then you might say, “Well, the fact that I’m envious of that person means that I actually want something.” And then you might think, “Well, what am I envious of?

然后你可能会说：“嗯，我嫉妒那个人，这意味着我确实想要一些东西。”然后你可能会想：“那么，我嫉妒什么？

I’m envious of their attractiveness to women.” It’s like, okay, well now you know something about yourself.

我很羡慕他们对女性的吸引力。”就像，好吧，现在你对自己有了一些了解。

You know that one true motivation that’s making itself manifest to you is that you wish that you would be the sort of person who is attractive to women.

您知道，向您显现的一个真正动机是您希望自己成为对女性有吸引力的人。

Now, of course, that’s an extremely common longing among men, period.

当然，现在这是男人们极其普遍的渴望。

But particularly among young men.

但尤其是在年轻人中。

It’s like, well, what makes you so sure you couldn’t have that?

就像，好吧，是什么让你如此确定你不能拥有那个？

59:52 Well, how about, here’s an answer.

好吧，怎么样，这是一个答案。

You don’t have enough faith in yourself.

你对自己没有足够的信心。

And maybe you don’t have enough faith in, well, I would say the divine.

也许你对神性没有足够的信心。

You don’t believe that the world is characterized by enough potentiality so that even miserable you has a crack at the brass ring.

你不相信这个世界有足够的潜力，以至于即使你很痛苦，你也能在铜环上裂开。

I talked about this actually practically in one of my previous books, because I wrote a chapter called Compare Yourself to Who You Are and Not to Someone Else at the Present Time.

我在之前的一本书中实际上谈到了这一点，因为我写了一章，名为“将自己与现在的自己进行比较，而不是与其他人进行比较”。

Well, why?

嗯，为什么？

Well, your best benchmark for tomorrow is you today.

那么，明天的最佳基准就是今天的你。

And you might not be able to have what someone else has on the particular axis you’re comparing yourself with them on, but you could make an incremental improvement over your current state regardless of the direction that you’re aiming.

在你与自己进行比较的特定轴上，你可能无法拥有别人的东西，但无论你的目标方向是什么，你都可以对你当前的状态进行渐进式的改进。

1:00:38 And it is the case, and this is a law.

事实就是如此，这是一条法律。

The return on incremental improvement is exponential or geometric and not linear.

增量改进的回报是指数或几何的，而不是线性的。

So even if you start …

所以即使你开始...

This is why the hero is always born in a lowly place, mythologically.

这就是为什么神话中的英雄总是出生在卑微的地方。

Christ, who redeems the world is born in a manger with the animals to poverty parents in the middle of a God-forsaken desert in a non-descript time and place, isolated.

救赎世界的基督出生在马槽里，他的父母是贫穷的动物，他们的父母生活在被上帝遗弃的沙漠中，时间和地点都难以描述，与世隔绝。

Well, why?

嗯，为什么？

Well, because everyone young struggles with their insufficiency.

嗯，因为每个年轻人都在与自己的不足作斗争。

But that doesn’t mean that great things can’t make themselves manifest.

但这并不意味着伟大的事情不能显现出来。

And part of the insistence in the biblical text, for example, is that it’s incumbent on you to have the courage to have faith in yourself and in the spirit of reality, the essence of reality, regardless of how you construe the evidence at hand.

例如，圣经文本中坚持的部分内容是，无论你如何解释手头的证据，你都有责任对自己和现实的精神、现实的本质有信心，有勇气。

Right.

正确的。

Look at me, I’m so useless.

你看我，我真是太没用了。

I don’t know anything.

我什么都不知道。

I don’t have anything.

我什么都没有。

It’s hopeless.

这是没有希望的。

I don’t have it within me.

我内心没有它。

The world couldn’t offer me that possibility.

这个世界无法为我提供这种可能性。

Well, what the hell do you know about that?

好吧，你到底知道什么？

1:01:48 This is what job figures out in the midst of his suffering in the Book of Job, because Job is tortured terribly by God, who makes a bet with Satan himself to bring him down.

这就是《约伯记》中约伯在苦难中所发现的，因为约伯受到上帝的严酷折磨，上帝与撒但打赌，要把他打倒。

And Job’s decision in the face of his intense suffering is, “I’m not going to lose faith in my essential goodness, and I’m not going to lose faith in the essential goodness of being itself, regardless of how terrible the face it’s showing to me at the moment happens to be.” And I think, okay, what do you make of that claim?

面对剧烈的痛苦，约伯的决定是：“我不会对自己本质上的善良失去信心，我也不会对存在本身的本质上的善良失去信心，无论此刻它向我展示的面容有多么可怕。”我想，好吧，你对这个说法有何看法？

Well, let’s look at it practically.

好吧，让我们实际看看。

1:02:23 You’re being tortured by the arbitrariness of life.

你正在被生活的随意性所折磨。

That’s horrible.

那太可怕了。

Now you lose faith in yourself and you become cynical about being.

现在你对自己失去了信心，你对存在变得愤世嫉俗。

So are you infinitely worse off instantly?

那么你的情况是否立即变得无限糟糕？

And then you might say, “Well yeah,” but it’s really asking a lot of people that they maintain faith even in their darkest hours.

然后你可能会说，“嗯，是的”，但这确实要求很多人即使在最黑暗的时刻也要保持信仰。

It’s like, yeah, that might be asking everything from people.

就像，是的，这可能会要求人们提供一切。

But then you also might ask …

但你也可能会问……

This is a very strange question.

这是一个很奇怪的问题。

If you were brought into being by something that was essentially good, wouldn’t that thing that brought you into being demand that you make the best in yourself manifest?

如果你是由某种本质上善良的东西创造出来的，那创造你的东西难道不会要求你表现出最好的自己吗？

And wouldn’t it be precisely when you most need that it be that you’d be desperate enough to risk what it would take to let it emerge?

难道不是在你最需要的时候，你会不顾一切地冒着让它出现的风险吗？

So you kind of make it seem that reason could be the thing that takes you out of a place of darkness.

所以你让人觉得理性可能是带你走出黑暗之地的东西。

1:03:17 Finding that calling through reason.

通过理性找到那个召唤。

I think it’s also possible when reason fails you to just take the leap.

我认为当理性无法让你迈出这一步时，这也是可能的。

Navigate not by reason, but by finding the thing that scares you.

导航不是靠理性，而是找到让你害怕的东西。

The risk.

风险。

Take the risk, take the leap, and then figure it out while you’re in the air.

冒险，迈出一步，然后在空中找出答案。

Yeah.

是的。

1:03:44 Well, I think that’s always part of a heroic adventure is that ability to cut the Gordian knot.

嗯，我认为，快刀斩乱麻的能力始终是英雄冒险的一部分。

But you could also ask from an engineering perspective, okay, what are the axioms that make a decision like that possible?” And the answer would be something like, I’m going to make the presumption that if I move forward in good faith, whatever happens to me will be the best thing that could possibly happen, no matter what it is.

但你也可以从工程角度问，好吧，做出这样的决定可能的公理是什么？”答案可能是这样的，我会假设，如果我真诚地前进，无论发生在我身上的是什么，都将是可能发生的最好的事情，无论它是什么。

And I think that’s actually how you make an alliance with truth.

我认为这实际上就是你与真理结盟的方式。

And I also think that truth is an adventure.

我也认为真理是一种冒险。

And the way you make an alliance with truth is by assuming that whatever happens to you, if you are living in truth, is the best thing that could happen, even if you can’t see that at any given moment.

你与真理结盟的方式就是假设，如果你生活在真理中，无论发生在你身上的事情，都是可能发生的最好的事情，即使你在任何特定时刻都看不到这一点。

Because otherwise you’d say that truth would be just the handmaiden of advantage.

因为否则你会说真理只是优势的婢女。

Well, I’m going to say something truthful, and I pay a price.

好吧，我要说实话，我要付出代价。

Well, that means I shouldn’t have said it.

好吧，这意味着我不应该这么说。

Well, possibly, but that’s not the only possible standard of evaluation.

嗯，有可能，但这并不是唯一可能的评估标准。

Because what you’re doing is you’re making the outcome, your deity.

因为你所做的就是你在创造结果，你的神。

Well, I’d just reversed that and say, no, no.

好吧，我只是反过来说，不，不。

Truth is the deity.

真理就是神。

The outcome is variable, but that doesn’t eradicate the initial axiom.

结果是可变的，但这并不能消除最初的公理。

Where’s the constant?

常数在哪里？

What’s the constant?

常数是什么？

It may be when you said Abraham was being fed by naked ladies-

可能是当你说亚伯拉罕正在被裸体女士喂食时——

That’s an interpolation, obviously, but would’ve been out of keeping for the times.

显然，这是一种插值，但与时俱进。

But it does make me think sort of in stark contrast in Nietzsche’s own life, that perhaps getting laid early on in life as a useful starter.

但这确实让我想到尼采自己的生活与尼采自己的生活形成了鲜明的对比，也许在生命的早期就被定性是一个有用的开始。

1:05:14 Step one, get laid, and then go for adventure.

第一步，上床，然后去冒险。

There’s some basic satiation of base desires.

基本欲望得到了一些基本的满足。

So I think it’s perfectly reasonable to bring the sexual element in because it’s a powerful motivating force, and it has to be integrated.

所以我认为引入性元素是完全合理的，因为它是一种强大的动力，而且必须整合起来。

1:05:32 I don’t think it’s adventure.

我不认为这是冒险。

It’s romantic adventure.

这是浪漫的冒险。

Right, but the lack of basic interaction, sexual interaction, I feel like is the engine that drives towards that cynicism of the incel in Dostoevsky’s Notes from Underground.

是的，但是缺乏基本的互动，即性互动，我觉得是导致陀思妥耶夫斯基《地下手记》中对非自愿独身者的愤世嫉俗的引擎。

There’s very little doubt about that.

对此毫无疑问。

1:05:57 We know perfectly well anthropologically that the most unstable social situation you can generate is young men with no access to women.

我们从人类学角度清楚地知道，最不稳定的社会状况是年轻男性无法接触女性。

That’s not good.

那可不好。

They’ll do anything, anything to reverse that situation.

他们会做任何事情来扭转这种局面。

So that’s very dangerous.

所以这是非常危险的。

1:06:15 But then I would also say there’s every suggestion that the pathway of adventure itself is the best pathway to romantic attractiveness.

但我也想说，有很多建议表明，冒险之路本身就是获得浪漫吸引力的最佳途径。

And we know this, in some ways in very blunt manner.

我们在某些方面以非常直率的方式知道这一点。

The Google boys, the engineers who are too …

谷歌男孩，工程师们也……

What would you say?

你会说什么？

Naively oriented towards empirical truth to note when they’re being politically incorrect, they wrote a great book called A Billion Wicked Thoughts, which I really like.

他们天真地以经验真理为导向，在政治不正确时加以注意，他们写了一本很棒的书，名叫《十亿个邪恶的想法》，我真的很喜欢。

It’s a very good book.

这是一本非常好的书。

And it’s engineers as psychologists.

工程师也是心理学家。

And so they’ll say all sorts of things that no one with any sense would ever say that happen to be true.

因此，他们会说出各种没有任何理智的人会说的事情。

And they studied the pattern of pornographic fantasy, and women like pornographic stories, not images.

他们研究了色情幻想的模式，女性喜欢色情故事，而不是图像。

So women’s use of pornography is literary.

所以女性对色情作品的使用是文学性的。

Who are the main protagonists in female pornographic fantasy?

女性色情幻想的主要主角是谁？

Pirates, werewolves, vampires, surgeons, billionaires.

海盗、狼人、吸血鬼、外科医生、亿万富翁。

Tony Stark.

托尼·史塔克.

1:07:13 And so the basic pornographic narrative is Beauty and the Beast.

所以基本的色情叙事就是美女与野兽。

Those five categories.

这五类。

Terrible, aggressive male, tamable by the right relationship, hot erotic attraction.

可怕的、好斗的男性，可以通过正确的关系驯服，热辣的色情吸引力。

And so I would say to the young men who, and I have many times to the young men who are locked in isolation, it’s first of all, “Join the bloody club.” Because the default value of a 15 year-old male on the mating market is zero.

因此，我要对那些被隔离的年轻人说，首先是“加入该死的俱乐部”，我也曾多次对那些被隔离的年轻人说。因为15岁男性在交配市场上的默认值为零。

And there’s reason for that.

这是有原因的。

Zero is a bit of an exaggeration, but not much.

零有点夸张，但也不算夸张。

And the reason for that is, well, what the hell do you know?

原因是，你到底知道什么？

You’re not good for anything.

你什么都不好。

You have potential and maybe plenty, and hopefully that’ll be made manifest, but you shouldn’t be all upset because you’re the same loser as everyone else your age has always been since the beginning of time.

你有潜力，也许还有很多潜力，希望这能得到体现，但你不应该感到沮丧，因为你和同龄的其他人一样，从一开始就是失败者。

1:08:03 But then you might ask, “Well, what should I do about it?” and the answer is, get yourself together.

但你可能会问：“那么，我该怎么办呢？”答案是，振作起来。

Stand up straight with your shoulders back, take on some adventure, find your calling, abide by your conscience, put yourself together and you’ll become attractive.

站直，肩膀向后，去冒险，找到你的使命，遵守你的良心，振作起来，你就会变得有吸引力。

And we know this is …

我们知道这是……

Look, we know this is true.

看，我们知道这是真的。

The correlation between male sexual opportunity and relative masculine status is about 0.6.

男性性机会与相对男性地位之间的相关性约为0.6。

That’s higher than the correlation between intelligence and academic achievement.

这高于智力和学业成绩之间的相关性。

I don’t think that there’s a larger correlation between two independent phenomena in the entire social science and health literature than the correlation between relative male social status and reproductive success.

我认为整个社会科学和健康文献中两个独立现象之间的相关性并不比男性相对社会地位和生殖成功之间的相关性更大。

It’s by far the most fundamental determinant.

这是迄今为止最基本的决定因素。

What’s the cause and effect there?

这其中的因果是什么？

It’s a loop.

这是一个循环。

1:08:54 Men are motivated to attain social status because it confers upon them reproductive success.

男性有动力获得社会地位，因为这能让他们成功生育。

And that’s not only cognitively, but biologically.

这不仅是认知上的，也是生物学上的。

I’ll give you an example of this.

我给你举个例子。

1:09:04 There’s a documentary I watch from time to time, which I think is the most brilliant documentary I’ve ever seen.

我经常看一部纪录片，我认为这是我看过的最精彩的纪录片。

It’s called Crumb, and it’s the story of this underground cartoonist.

它叫《Crumb》，讲述的是这位地下漫画家的故事。

Robert Crumb, who in high school was in the category of males for whom a date was not only not likely, but unimaginable.

罗伯特·克拉姆（Robert Crumb）在高中时就属于那种约会对象不仅不太可能，而且难以想象的男性。

So he was at the bottom of the bottom rung, and almost all the reactions he got from females wasn’t just no, it was like, “Are you out of your mind?” With that contempt.

所以他处于最底层，而他从女性那里得到的几乎所有反应都不仅仅是“不”，而是“你疯了吗？”带着那种蔑视。

And then he became successful.

然后他就成功了。

And so the documentary is super interesting because it tracks the utter pathology of his sexual fantasies because he was bitter and resentful.

所以这部纪录片非常有趣，因为它追踪了他的性幻想的彻底病态，因为他感到痛苦和怨恨。

And if you want to understand the psychology of serial sexual killers and the like, and you watch Crumb, you’ll find out a lot more about that than anybody with any sense would want to know.

如果你想了解连环性杀手之类的心理，当你观看《Crumb》时，你会发现比任何有理智的人都想知道的更多的信息。

1:10:01 But then he makes this transition, and partly because he does take the heroic adventure path, and he actually has a family and children, and he is actually a pretty functional person as opposed to his brothers, one of whom commits suicide, and one of whom is literally a repeat sexual offender.

但后来他做出了这种转变，部分原因是他确实走上了英雄的冒险之路，而且他实际上有家庭和孩子，而且他实际上是一个非常正常的人，而不是他的兄弟，其中一个兄弟自杀了，其中一个实际上是性犯罪惯犯。

It’s a brutal documentary.

这是一部残酷的纪录片。

But what he did in his adolescence after being rejected was he found what he was interested in.

但在青春期被拒绝后，他所做的就是找到了自己感兴趣的东西。

He was a very good artist.

他是一位非常优秀的艺术家。

He was very interested in music, and he started to pursue those single-mindedly, and he became successful.

他对音乐非常感兴趣，一心一意地追求音乐，并取得了成功。

And as soon as he became successful, and the documentary tracks this beautifully, he’s immediately attractive to women.

一旦他取得了成功，并且这部纪录片完美地记录了这一点，他就立即对女性产生了吸引力。

And then you might ask too, even if you’re cynical, it’s like, “Well, why do I have to perform for women?” And the answer to that is something like, why the hell should they have anything to do with you if you’re useless?

然后你也可能会问，即使你很愤世嫉俗，也会问，“好吧，为什么我必须为女性表演？”答案就像是，如果你没用，他们为什么要和你有任何关系呢？

They’re going to have infants.

他们要生孩子了。

They don’t need another one.

他们不需要另一个。

1:10:53 Partly the reason that women are hypergamous, they want males who are of higher status than they are, is because they’re trying to redress the reproductive burden.

女性一夫多妻制的部分原因是她们想要比她们地位更高的男性，因为她们试图减轻生育负担。

And it’s substantial.

这很重要。

The female of any species is the sex that devotes more to the reproductive function.

任何物种的雌性都是更致力于生殖功能的性别。

That’s a more fundamental definition than chromosomal differentiation.

这是比染色体分化更基本的定义。

And that’s taken to its ultimate extreme with humans.

对于人类来说，这已经达到了极致。

And so of course women are going to want someone around that’s useful, because the cost of sex for them is an 18 year-old period of dependency with an infant.

因此，女性当然会希望身边有一个有用的人，因为性行为对她们来说的代价就是 18 岁对婴儿的依赖。

So I think the adventure comes first.

所以我认为冒险是第一位的。

Heroic adventure comes first.

英雄冒险是第一位的。

Well, it’s complex.

嗯，这很复杂。

1:11:34 Because the other problem, let’s say with the Crumb boys, is that their mother was extremely pathological and they didn’t get a lot of genuine feminine nurturance and affection.

因为另一个问题，比如说克拉姆男孩，是他们的母亲极其病态，他们没有得到很多真正的女性养育和关爱。

Of course.

当然。

1:11:43 The family and society are not going to help you most of the time with a heroic adventure, right?

大多数时候，家庭和社会不会帮助你进行英雄冒险，对吗？

They’re going to be a barrier versus a catalyst.

它们将成为障碍而不是催化剂。

Well, in good families they’re both.

好吧，在良好的家庭中，他们都是。

1:11:53 Because they put up constraints on your behavior.

因为它们对你的行为施加了限制。

I’ve interviewed a lot of successful people about their calling, let’s say, because I do that with all my podcast guests.

我采访过很多成功人士，了解他们的使命，因为我对所有播客嘉宾都是这样做的。

How did the path that you took to success make itself manifest?

您的成功之路是如何体现的？

And the pattern’s very typical.

而且图案非常典型。

Almost all the people that I’ve interviewed had a mother and a father.

我采访过的几乎所有人都有母亲和父亲。

Now, it’s not invariant, but I’d say it’s there in 99% of the time.

现在，它并不是一成不变的，但我想说它在 99% 的时间里都存在。

It’s really high.

真的很高。

And both of the parents, or at least one of them, but often both were very encouraging of the person’s interests and pathway to development.

父母双方，或至少其中一位，但通常都非常鼓励这个人的兴趣和发展道路。

That’s fascinating.

这很有趣。

1:12:34 I’ve heard you analyze it that way before, and I had a reaction to that idea, because you focused on the positive of the parents.

我以前听过你这样分析过，我对这个想法有反应，因为你关注的是父母的积极方面。

I feel like it was the …

我感觉这就是……

Maybe I see biographies differently, but it feels like the struggle within the family was the catalyst for greatness in a lot of biographies.

也许我对传记的看法不同，但感觉家庭内部的斗争是许多传记中伟大的催化剂。

Maybe I’m misinterpreting it, but I just-

也许我误解了它，但我只是——

No, no.

不，不。

1:12:57 I think that that’s a reflection, maybe …

我认为这就是一种反思，也许……

Correct me if I’m wrong.

如果我错了请纠正我。

I think that’s a reflection of that dynamic between positive and negative emotion.

我认为这反映了积极情绪和消极情绪之间的动态。

Like my son, for example, who’s doing just fine, he’s firing on all cylinders as far as I’m concerned.

例如，就像我的儿子一样，他表现得很好，就我而言，他正在全力以赴。

He has a nice family, he gets along with his wife, he’s a really good musician, he’s got a company he’s running well.

他有一个美好的家庭，他和妻子相处融洽，他是一位非常好的音乐家，他有一家经营良好的公司。

He’s a delight to be around.

他很高兴能和他在一起。

He was a relatively disagreeable infant.

他是一个相对不讨人喜欢的婴儿。

He was tough-minded, and he didn’t take no for an answer.

他意志坚强，不接受拒绝。

And so there was some tussle in regulating his behavior.

因此，在规范他的行为方面存在一些争议。

He spent a lot of time when he was two sitting on the steps trying to get his act together.

当他两岁的时候，他花了很多时间坐在台阶上试图让自己的行为正常起来。

And so that was the constraint.

这就是限制。

But that wasn’t something that was …

但那不是……

It’s an opposition to him away because it was in opposition to the immediate manifestation of his hedonistic desires, but it was also an impetus to further development.

这是对他的反对，因为这反对他享乐欲望的立即表现，但这也是进一步发展的动力。

1:13:56 The rule for me when he was on the stairs was as soon as you’re willing to be a civilized human being, you can get off the stairs.

当他在楼梯上时，我的规则是，只要你愿意成为一个文明人，你就可以下楼梯。

And you might think, well, that’s nothing but arbitrary superego, patriarchal oppressive constraint.

你可能会想，好吧，这只不过是任意的超我、父权制的压迫性约束。

Or you could say, “Well, no, what I’m actually doing is facilitating his cortical maturation.” Because when a child misbehaves, it’s usually because they’re under the domination of some primordial emotional or motivational impulse.

或者你可以说，“嗯，不，我实际上所做的是促进他的皮质成熟。”因为当孩子行为不端时，通常是因为他们受到某种原始情感或动机冲动的支配。

They’re angry, they’re over-enthusiastic, they’re upset, they’re selfish.

他们生气，他们过度热情，他们心烦意乱，他们自私。

It’s narrow self-centeredness expressed in a immature manner.

这是一种以不成熟的方式表现出来的狭隘的自我中心。

But see …

但看……

1:14:34 Okay.

好的。

Tell me if I’m wrong, but it feels like the engine of greatness, at least on the male side of things, has often been trying to prove the father wrong, or trying to gain the acceptance of the father.

如果我错了请告诉我，但感觉伟大的引擎，至少在男性方面，经常试图证明父亲是错的，或者试图获得父亲的接受。

So that tension, where the parent is not encouraging like you mentioned, but is basically saying, “No, you won’t be able to do this.”

因此，这种紧张感，父母并不像你提到的那样鼓励，而是基本上说，“不，你做不到这一点。”

Okay.

好的。

1:15:00 So my observation as a psychologist has been that it’s very, very difficult for someone to get their act together unless they have at least one figure in their life that’s encouraging and shows them the pathway forward.

因此，作为一名心理学家，我的观察是，一个人很难齐心协力，除非他们的生活中至少有一个人物能够鼓励他们并为他们指明前进的道路。

So you can have a lot of adversity in your life, and if you have one person around who’s a good model and you’re neurologically intact, you can latch onto that model.

所以你的生活中可能会遇到很多逆境，如果你周围有一个人是一个很好的榜样，而你的神经系统完好无损，你就可以抓住这个榜样。

1:15:22 Now, you can also find that model in books, and people do that sometimes.

现在，你也可以在书中找到这个模型，人们有时也会这么做。

I’ve interviewed people who had pretty fragmented childhoods, who turned to books and found the pattern that guided them in, let’s say, the adventures of the heroes of the past, because that’s a good way of thinking about it.

我采访过一些人，他们的童年非常支离破碎，他们转向书籍，找到了引导他们进入过去英雄冒险的模式，因为这是一种很好的思考方式。

And I read a book called Angela’s Ashes that was written by an Irish author, Frank McCourt.

我读了一本名叫《安吉拉的灰烬》的书，作者是爱尔兰作家弗兰克·麦考特。

Fantastic book, beautiful book.

很棒的书，美丽的书。

And his father was an alcoholic of gargantuan proportions.

他的父亲是个严重的酒鬼。

An Irish drinker who drank every cent that came into the family and many of whose children died in poverty.

一个爱尔兰酒鬼，他喝光了家里的每一分钱，他的许多孩子都死于贫困。

1:16:01 And what Frank did is a testament to the human spirit, is he sort of divided his father conceptually into two elements.

弗兰克所做的是人类精神的证明，他在概念上将他的父亲分为两个元素。

There was sober morning father who was encouraging and with whom he had a relationship, and then there was drunk and useless later afternoon and evening father, and he rejected the negative and he amplified his relationship with the positive.

有一个早上清醒的父亲，他鼓励并与他建立了关系，然后有一个喝醉了、无用的下午和晚上的父亲，他拒绝了消极的一面，并放大了他与积极一面的关系。

Now, he had other things going for him, but he did a very good job of discriminating.

现在，他还有其他事情要做，但他在辨别方面做得很好。

1:16:35 And partly the question that you’re raising is to what degree is it useful to have a beneficial adversary?

您提出的部分问题是，拥有一个有益的对手到底有多大用处？

Yeah, struggle-free progress is not possible.

是的，不经过斗争就取得进步是不可能的。

And I think there are situations under which where you might be motivated to prove someone in your immediate circle wrong, but then that also implies that at some level, for some reason, you actually care about their judgment.

我认为在某些情况下，你可能会想要证明你身边的人是错误的，但这也意味着在某种程度上，出于某种原因，你实际上关心他们的判断。

You just didn’t write them off completely.

你只是没有完全注销它们。

Well, that’s why I say there’s an archetype of a young man trying to gain the approval of his father.

嗯，这就是为什么我说有一个年轻人试图获得父亲认可的原型。

1:17:08 And I think that repeats itself in a bunch of biographies that I’ve read.

我认为这在我读过的一堆传记中重复出现。

I don’t know.

我不知道。

There must have been an engine somewhere that they found of approval of encouragement.

他们一定在某个地方发现了一个值得鼓励的引擎。

Maybe in books, maybe in the mother, or maybe the role of the parents is flipped.

也许在书本上，也许在母亲身上，或者也许父母的角色被颠倒了。

Well, my father was hard to please.

嗯，我父亲很难取悦。

1:17:34 Very.

非常。

Did you ever succeed?

你曾经成功过吗？

Yes, but it wasn’t easy, ever.

是的，但这从来都不容易。

When was the moment when you succeeded?

你成功的那一刻是什么时候？

Pretty late.

很晚了。

1:17:47 Like 40, maybe later.

大概40岁吧，也许更晚一些。

Was it gradual, or a moment when a shift happened?

是逐渐发生的，还是突然发生转变的？

My father was always willing to approve of the things I did that were good, although he was not effusive by any stretch of the imagination, and the standards were very high.

我的父亲总是愿意认可我所做的好事，尽管他并不热情洋溢，而且标准非常高。

1:17:59 Now, I was probably fortunate for me.

现在，我可能很幸运。

And it does bear on the question you’re asking.

它确实与你所问的问题有关。

If you want someone to motivate you optimally …

如果您希望有人以最佳方式激励您……

God, it’s complicated because there has to be a temperamental dance between the two people.

天哪，这很复杂，因为两个人之间必须有一种气质的舞蹈。

What you really want is for someone to apply the highest possible standards to you that you’re capable of reaching.

你真正想要的是有人对你应用你能够达到的最高标准。

And that’s a vicious dance, because you have to have a relationship with your child to do that properly.

这是一种邪恶的舞蹈，因为你必须与你的孩子建立关系才能正确地做到这一点。

Because if you want to be optimally motivating as a father, you keep your children on the edge.

因为如果你想成为一名父亲，发挥最佳的激励作用，你就得让你的孩子处于危险之中。

It’s like, you might not reward something in your child that you would think would be good in someone else because you think they could do better.

就像，你可能不会奖励你的孩子一些你认为对其他人有益的东西，因为你认为他们可以做得更好。

And so my father was pretty clear about the idea that he always expected me to do better, and was that troublesome?

所以我父亲很清楚他总是希望我做得更好，这很麻烦吗？

It was like I felt often when I was young that there was no pleasing him, but I also knew that that wasn’t right.

就好像我年轻的时候经常觉得自己无法取悦他，但我也知道那样是不对的。

See, I actually knew that wasn’t right.

看，我其实知道那是不对的。

Because I could remember, especially I think when I was very young, that I did things that he was pleased about.

因为我记得，尤其是我很小的时候，我做了让他高兴的事情。

I knew that was possible.

我知道这是可能的。

So it wasn’t unpredictable and arbitrary.

所以这并不是不可预测和任意的。

It was just difficult.

这很困难。

It sounds like he’s hit a pretty good optimal.

听起来他已经达到了相当好的最佳状态。

1:19:36 But for each individual human that optimal differs, and that’s what’s hard.

但对于每个人来说，最佳的情况都不同，这就是困难所在。

Well, that’s why you have to have a relationship with your children.

好吧，这就是为什么你必须与你的孩子建立关系。

1:19:44 You have to know them.

你必须了解他们。

Well, with yourself too, and with your wife.

好吧，你自己也是如此，还有你的妻子。

You can’t hit that optimal …

你无法达到最佳状态……

That optimal is probably love, because love isn’t just acceptance.

最好的可能就是爱，因为爱不仅仅是接受。

Love is acceptance and encouragement.

爱是接受和鼓励。

And it’s not just that either.

而且还不仅如此。

It’s also, “No, don’t do that.

它还说，“不，不要这样做。

That’s beneath you.

那是在你之下。

You’re capable of more.” And how harsh should that be?

你还有能力做到更多。”这应该有多严厉？

That’s a really hard question.

这是一个非常难的问题。

If you really love someone, you’re not going to put up with their stupidity.

如果你真的爱一个人，你就不会容忍他们的愚蠢。

“Don’t do that.” One of the rules I had with my little kids was don’t do anything that makes you look like an idiot in public.

“别那样做。”我对我的孩子们制定的规则之一是不要做任何让你在公共场合看起来像个白痴的事情。

Why?

为什么？

Because I don’t want you disgracing yourself.

因为我不想让你丢脸。

Why not?

为什么不呢？

Because I like you.

因为我喜欢你。

I think you’re great, and you’re not going to act like a bloody fool in public so that people get the wrong idea about you.

我认为你很棒，你不会在公共场合表现得像个该死的傻瓜，以免人们对你产生错误的看法。

No.

不。

What about inside a relationship?

关系内部又如何呢？

1:20:40 A successful relationship.

一段成功的关系。

How much challenge, how much peace?

有多少挑战，有多少平静？

Is a successful relationship one that is easy or one that is challenging?

一段成功的关系是一种容易的关系还是一种具有挑战性的关系？

I would say to some degree that depends on your temperament.

我想说这在某种程度上取决于你的气质。

1:20:57 My wife is quite a provocative person, and there are times when I, I suppose …

我的妻子是一个相当挑衅的人，有时我，我想……

Do I wish that …

我是否希望……

There are times when I casually wish that she was easier to get along with, but as soon as I think about it I don’t think that.

有时我会随心所欲地希望她能好相处一些，但转念一想却又不这么认为。

Because I’ve always liked her.

因为我一直很喜欢她。

We were friends ever since we were little kids, and she’s plays rough, and I like that, as it turns out.

我们从小就是朋友，她很粗暴，事实证明我喜欢这一点。

Now, that doesn’t mean it isn’t a pain from time to time.

现在，这并不意味着它不会时不时地感到痛苦。

And that is going to be a temperamental issue to some degree, and an issue of negotiation.

这在某种程度上将是一个喜怒无常的问题，也是一个需要谈判的问题。

She plays rough, but fair.

她行事粗暴，但公平。

And the fair part has been establishing that it’s been part of our ongoing negotiation.

公平的部分是，这已经成为我们正在进行的谈判的一部分。

And part of it is in the play, you get to find out about yourself or what your temperament is.

其中一部分是在戏剧中，你可以了解自己或了解自己的性格。

1:21:44 I don’t think that’s clear until it’s tested.

我认为在测试之前这一点还不清楚。

Oh, definitely not.

哦，绝对不是。

1:21:52 Definitely not.

绝对不是。

You find out all sorts of things about yourself in a relationship, that’s for sure.

在一段关系中，你会发现关于自己的各种各样的事情，这是肯定的。

Well, and partly the reason that there is provocativeness, especially from women in relationship to men, is they want to test them out.

好吧，挑衅的部分原因是她们想测试一下，尤其是女性在与男性的关系中。

It’s like …

就像……

Can you hold your temper when someone’s bothering you?

当有人打扰你时，你能控制住自己的脾气吗？

Well, why would a woman want to know that?

那么，女人为什么想知道这个呢？

Well, maybe she doesn’t want you to snap and hurt her kids.

好吧，也许她不想让你发脾气并伤害她的孩子。

And so how’s she going to find that out?

那么她要如何找到答案呢？

Ask you?

问你吗？

Well, you’re going to say, “Well, I’d never do that.” It’s like, “Never eh?

好吧，你会说：“好吧，我永远不会那样做。”就像是，“从来没有吧？

Let’s find out if it’s never.” So we don’t know how people test each other out in relationships, or why exactly, but it’s intense and necessary.

让我们看看它是否永远不会。”所以我们不知道人们如何在人际关系中互相考验，也不知道到底为什么，但这是强烈且必要的。

What’s your and what’s in general should a man’s relationship with temper be?

你和男人与脾气的关系通常应该是怎样的？

You should have one and you should be able to regulate it.

你应该拥有一个并且你应该能够调节它。

1:22:39 That’s part of that attractiveness of the monstrous that characterizes women’s fantasies.

这就是女性幻想中怪物的吸引力的一部分。

And Nietzsche pointed this out too-

尼采也指出了这一点——

Pirates.

海盗。

To go back to Nietzsche.

回到尼采。

Yeah.

是的。

One of Nietzsche’s claims was that most of what passes for morality is nothing but cowardice.

尼采的主张之一是，大多数所谓的道德不过是懦弱。

1:22:53 I’d never cheat on my wife.

我永远不会欺骗我的妻子。

Is there anybody asking you to that you actually find attractive, or are there dozens of people asking you to that you find attractive?

是否有人要求你这样做而你确实觉得有吸引力，或者是否有数十人要求你这样做而你认为有吸引力？

It’s like, “Well, I would never cheat.” It’s like, “No, you just don’t have the opportunity.” Now, I’m not saying that everyone’s in that position that they would cheat even if they had the opportunity, because that’s not true.

就像，“好吧，我永远不会作弊。”就像，“不，你只是没有机会。”现在，我并不是说每个人都处于即使有机会也会作弊的境地，因为事实并非如此。

And it’s the same with regards to, “Oh, I’m a peaceful man.” It’s like, “No, you’re not.

对于“哦，我是一个和平的人”来说也是如此。就像是，“不，你不是。

You’re just a weak coward.

你只是一个软弱的胆小鬼。

You wouldn’t dare to have a confrontation, physical or metaphysical, and you’re passing it off as morality because you don’t want to come to terms with the fact of your own weakness and cowardice.”

你不敢进行对抗，无论是身体上的还是形而上的，你把它当作道德来冒充，因为你不想接受自己的软弱和怯懦的事实。”

1:23:38 And part of what I would say is twisted pseudo-Christian morality that Nietzsche was criticizing was exactly of that sort, and it tied into resentment and envy.

我要说的部分内容是尼采所批评的扭曲的伪基督教道德正是这种道德，它与怨恨和嫉妒联系在一起。

And he tied that in explicitly said that failure in life masked by the morality that’s nothing but weak cowardice turns to the resentment that undermines and destroys everything, and that does that purposefully.

他明确指出，生活中的失败被道德所掩盖，只不过是软弱的怯懦，变成了破坏和摧毁一切的怨恨，而且是有目的地这样做的。

Yeah, I think it was criticizing under the facade of niceness, there’s an ocean of resentment.

是的，我认为这是在善意的外表下进行批评，里面有大量的怨恨。

Yeah, that’s for sure.

是的，这是肯定的。

1:24:10 For sure.

一定。

That’s also the danger of being two forthcoming with people.

这也是与人相处时两个人的危险所在。

See, this is another thing, let’s say, about my wife, who’s not particularly agreeable.

瞧，这是另一件事，比方说，是关于我妻子的，她不是特别讨人喜欢。

She’s not particularly agreeable, but she’s not resentful, and that’s because she doesn’t give things away that she isn’t willing to.

她不是特别讨人喜欢，但她也不怨恨，那是因为她不会放弃她不愿意的东西。

And if you’re agreeable and nice and you’re conflict avoidant, you’ll push yourself too far to please the other person, and then that makes you bitter and resentful.

如果你和蔼可亲、友善，并且避免冲突，你就会逼迫自己去取悦对方，然后这会让你感到痛苦和怨恨。

So that’s not helpful.

所以这没有帮助。

Do you think you’ll be in trouble for saying this on a podcast later?

您认为稍后在播客上说这句话会给您带来麻烦吗？

No, no.

不，不。

1:24:45 We know each other pretty well.

我们彼此很了解。

And like I said, it’s a trait that I find admirable.

就像我说的，这是我觉得令人钦佩的特质。

It’s provocative and challenging.

这是具有挑衅性和挑战性的。

And it seems to work.

这似乎有效。

Well, we’ve been together 50 years, so …

好吧，我们已经在一起 50 年了，所以……

Quick pause, bathroom break.

快速暂停，上厕所。

1:25:02 If we can descend from the realm of ideas down to history and reality.

如果我们能够从思想领域下降到历史和现实。

I would say the time between World War I and World War II was one of history’s biggest testing of ideas, and really the most dramatic kinds of ideas that helped us understand the nature of good and evil.

我想说，第一次世界大战和第二次世界大战之间的时期是历史上对思想的最大考验之一，也是帮助我们理解善与恶本质的最戏剧性的思想。

I just want to ask you a question about good and evil.

我只是想问你一个关于善恶的问题。

Churchill, in many ways, was not a good man.

从很多方面来说，丘吉尔都不是一个好人。

Stalin, as you’ve documented extensively, was a horrible man.

正如你所广泛记录的那样，斯大林是一个可怕的人。

But you can make the case that both were necessary for stopping an even worse human being in Hitler.

但你可以证明，为了阻止希特勒这个更糟糕的人，两者都是必要的。

So to what degree do you need monsters to fight monsters?

那么打怪物需要到什么程度呢？

Do you need bad men to be able to fight off greater evils?

你需要坏人来对抗更大的邪恶吗？

It’s everything in its proper place is the answer to that.

一切都在其适当的位置上就是这个问题的答案。

1:26:12 We might think that our life would be easier without fear, let’s say.

比方说，我们可能认为没有恐惧，我们的生活会更轻松。

We might say that our life would be easier without anger or pain, but the truth of the matter is that those things are beneficial, even though they can cause great suffering, but they have to be in their proper place.

我们可能会说，没有愤怒或痛苦，我们的生活会更容易，但事实是，这些东西是有益的，尽管它们会造成巨大的痛苦，但它们必须放在适当的位置。

And that capacity that could in one context be a terrible force for evil can in the proper context be the most potent force for good.

这种能力在某种情况下可能是一股可怕的邪恶力量，但在适当的情况下却可能成为最强大的正义力量。

A good man has to be formidable.

一个好男人必须是强大的。

And partly what that means, as far as I can tell, is that you have to be able to say no.

据我所知，这在一定程度上意味着你必须能够说不。

And no means …

而且没办法……

I thought a lot about no working as a clinician, because I did a lot of strategic counseling with my clients in a lot of extremely difficult situations, and I learned to take apart what no meant-

我对不做一名临床医生想了很多，因为我在很多极其困难的情况下为我的客户做了很多战略咨询，我学会了拆解那些没有意义的东西——

1:27:03 …

……

called situations, and I learned to take apart what no meant.

我学会了分解那些毫无意义的东西。

And also when dealing with my own children, because I used no sparingly because it’s a powerful weapon, let’s say, but I meant it.

而且在对待我自己的孩子时，我毫不吝惜地使用它，因为它是一种强大的武器，可以这么说，但我是认真的。

And with my kids, what it meant was if you continue that pattern of behavior, something you do not like will happen to you with 100% certainty.

对于我的孩子来说，这意味着如果你继续这种行为模式，你不喜欢的事情100%肯定会发生在你身上。

And when that’s the case and you’re willing to implement it, you don’t have to do it very often.

当这种情况发生并且你愿意实施时，你就不必经常这样做。

With regards to monstrosity, it’s like weak men aren’t good.

对于怪物来说，就好像弱者不是好人一样。

They’re just weak.

他们只是软弱。

That’s Nietzsche’s observation.

这是尼采的观察。

That’s partly, again, why he was tempted to place the will to power, let’s say, and to deal with that notion in a manner that when it was tied with the revaluation of all values was counterproductive.

这也是为什么他试图将权力意志置于权力意志之上，并以一种当它与所有价值观的重估联系在一起时会适得其反的方式来处理这一概念。

Counterproductive in the final analysis.

归根结底是适得其反。

It’s not like there wasn’t something to what he was driving at.

他的目的并不是没有任何意义。

Formidable men are admirable and you know, don’t mess with them.

强大的人是令人钦佩的，你知道，不要惹他们。

Douglas Murray is a good example of that.

道格拉斯·默里就是一个很好的例子。

1:28:05 He’s a rather slight guy, but he’s got a spine of steel, and there’s more than a bit of what’s a monstrous in him.

他是一个相当瘦小的家伙，但他有钢铁般的脊椎，而且他身上有不止一点可怕的东西。

And Jocko Willink is like that, and Joe Rogan is like that, and you’re like that.

乔科·威林克（Jocko Willink）就是这样，乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）就是这样，你也是这样。

But there’s a different level.

但还有一个不同的层次。

1:28:17 I mean, if you look, to me, Churchill might represent the thing you’re talking about, but World War II Hitler would not be stopped without Stalin.

我的意思是，如果你看的话，对我来说，丘吉尔可能代表了你正在谈论的事情，但如果没有斯大林，第二次世界大战的希特勒就不会被阻止。

Well, I wonder.

嗯，我想知道。

1:28:31 Yes, yes.

是的，是的。

And if I may insert into this picture of complexity, Hitler would’ve not stopped until he enslaved and exterminated the entirety of the Slavic people, the Jewish people, the Slavic people, the gypsies, everybody who was not Aryan.

如果我可以插入这张复杂的图景，希特勒不会停止，直到他奴役和消灭整个斯拉夫人民，犹太人，斯拉夫人民，吉普赛人，所有非雅利安人。

1:28:34 But then Stalin in the mass rape of German women by the Red Army as they marched towards Berlin is a kind of manifestation, the full monstrosity that a person can be.

但斯大林在红军向柏林进军时对德国妇女的大规模强奸就是一种表现，是一个人可以成为的彻头彻尾的怪物。

You can easily be in a situation, you can easily, unfortunately find yourself in a situation where all you have in front of you are a variety of bad options.

你很容易陷入这样的境地，不幸的是，你很容易发现自己面临着各种糟糕的选择。

1:29:02 That’s partly why, if you have any sense, you try to conduct yourself very carefully in life because you don’t want to be in a position where you’ve made so many mistakes that all the options left to you are terrible.

这就是为什么，如果你有理智的话，你会在生活中尝试非常小心地行事，因为你不想陷入犯了太多错误的境地，以至于留给你的所有选择都很糟糕。

So you said, well, was it necessary to ally with Stalin?

所以你说，有必要与斯大林结盟吗？

Well, it’s very difficult to second guess the trajectory of something as complex as World War II, but we could say casually, at least as Westerners have in general, that that alliance was necessary.

好吧，很难对像第二次世界大战这样复杂的事情的轨迹进行二次猜测，但我们可以随意地说，至少像西方人普遍认为的那样，这种联盟是必要的。

Now, I think the mistake that the West made in the aftermath of World War II was in not dealing as forthrightly with the catastrophes of communism as an ideology as we did with fascism.

现在，我认为西方在二战后所犯的错误在于没有像对待法西斯主义那样直率地对待共产主义作为一种意识形态的灾难。

And that’s especially true of the intellectuals in the universities.

对于大学里的知识分子来说尤其如此。

1:29:59 I mean, it was very common when I was teaching both at Harvard and at the University of Toronto for the students in my personality class where we studied Solzhenitsyn, who’s actually an existential psychologist in many ways and a deep one, none of them knew anything about the Soviet atrocities.

我的意思是，当我在哈佛大学和多伦多大学为我的人格课上的学生授课时，这种情况很常见，我们研究了索尔仁尼琴，他实际上在很多方面都是一位深刻的存在主义心理学家，他们中没有人对苏联的暴行一无所知。

None of them knew anything about what happened in Ukraine and the death of 6 million productive people, had no idea that the communists killed tens of millions of people in the aftermath of the Russian Revolution.

他们谁都不知道乌克兰发生的事情以及六百万生产人民的死亡，也不知道共产党在俄罗斯革命后杀害了数千万人。

They know even less about Mao and the Great Leap Forward.

他们对毛泽东和大跃进的了解就更少了。

Right.

正确的。

1:30:33 Which some estimates are a hundred million people.

有人估计有一亿人。

Now when your error bars are in the tens of millions, well, that’s a real indication of a cataclysm.

现在，当你的误差线达到数千万时，那就是灾难的真正迹象。

And nobody knows how many people died from direct oppression or indirect in the Soviet Union.

没有人知道苏联有多少人死于直接或间接的压迫。

20 million, it seems like a reasonable estimate.

2000万，看起来是一个合理的估计。

Solzhenitsyn’s upper was higher than that.

索尔仁尼琴的上层比这更高。

And how do you measure the intellectual output that was suppressed and killed off the number of intellectuals, artists and writers that were put into the gulags.

如何衡量被关进古拉格集中营的知识分子、艺术家和作家的数量？

Well, farmers for that matter, and anyone who was willing to tell the truth, right?

好吧，农民，以及任何愿意说实话的人，对吧？

1:31:06 Absolutely.

绝对地。

So, yeah, catastrophic.

所以，是的，灾难性的。

And so I think the West’s failure wasn’t so much allying with Stalin.

所以我认为西方的失败并不是与斯大林结盟。

I mean, it was Douglas MacArthur who wanted to continue.

我的意思是，道格拉斯·麦克阿瑟想继续。

He thought we should just take the Soviets out after the Second World War, and they removed them from any position of authority where such a thing might be made possible and people were tired, but was MacArthur wrong?

他认为我们应该在第二次世界大战后把苏联人赶出去，他们将他们从任何可能发生这种事情的权威职位上撤职，人们也感到疲倦，但麦克阿瑟错了吗？

Well, he certainly wasn’t wrong in his insistence that Stalin was as big a monster as Hitler or bigger.

好吧，他坚持认为斯大林和希特勒一样大，甚至更大，这当然没有错。

So the valorization of the radical leftist proclivity is the sin of the West, I think more intensely than allying with Stalin.

因此，我认为，极端左派倾向的重视是西方的罪过，这比与斯大林结盟更严重。

Tricky nuanced topic.

棘手细致的话题。

1:31:59 But if we look at the modern day and the threat of communism Marxism in the United States, to me it’s disrespectful to the atrocities of the 20th century to call somebody like Kamala Harris a communist.

但如果我们看看现代以及共产主义马克思主义在美国的威胁，对我来说，称像卡马拉·哈里斯这样的人是共产主义者是对20世纪暴行的不尊重。

But I see the sort of escalation of the extremeness of language being used when you call somebody like Donald Trump a fascist, that it makes total sense to then use similar extreme terminology for somebody like Kamala Harris.

但我看到，当你称唐纳德·特朗普这样的人为法西斯分子时，所使用的极端语言有所升级，因此对卡马拉·哈里斯这样的人使用类似的极端术语是完全有道理的。

But maybe I could ask your evaluation.

但也许我可以问问你的评价。

If you look at the political landscape today, somebody like Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.

如果你看看今天的政治格局，就会发现像乔·拜登和卡马拉·哈里斯这样的人。

Okay.

好的。

1:32:40 Well, the first thing I would say is that I think that viewing the political landscape of today as a political landscape is actually wrong.

嗯，我首先要说的是，我认为将当今的政治格局视为政治格局实际上是错误的。

I think it’s not the right frame of reference because what I see happening are a very small percentage of dark tetrad personality types.

我认为这不是正确的参考框架，因为我看到发生的事情只占黑暗四联人格类型的一小部分。

So Machiavellian, manipulative, narcissistic, wanting undeserved attention, psychopathic that makes them predatory parasites and sadistic, because that goes along with the other three.

因此，他们具有马基雅维利式的、操纵性的、自恋的、想要得到不应有的关注、心理变态的特征，这使得他们成为掠夺性的寄生虫和虐待狂，因为这与其他三者是一致的。

That’s about in the serious manifestation, that’s probably three to 5% of the population, and they’re generally kept under pretty decent control by civilized people and stable social interactions.

严重的情况下，这可能占总人口的 3% 到 5%，而且他们通常受到文明人和稳定的社会互动的相当好的控制。

I think that their imaginations are disinhibited by cost-free social media communication.

我认为他们的想象力被免费的社交媒体交流所抑制。

So they gain disproportionate influence.

因此他们获得了不成比例的影响力。

Now, these people want undeserved recognition and social status and everything that goes along with it, and they don’t care how they get it, because when I say they want that, I mean that’s all they want.

现在，这些人想要不应有的认可和社会地位以及随之而来的一切，他们不在乎如何得到它，因为当我说他们想要这些时，我的意思是这就是他们想要的。

So in the realm of social media, you mentioned, yes, but are you also suggesting that they’re overrepresented in the realm of politics, politicians and so on?

所以在社交媒体领域，你提到了，是的，但你是否也暗示他们在政治、政客等领域的代表性过高？

They’re overrepresented in the realm of fractious political discourse because they can use ideas.

他们在难以驾驭的政治话语领域中所占的比例过高，因为他们可以利用想法。

1:34:06 First of all, they can use, let’s say, the benevolent ideas of the right and the benevolent ideas of the left, either one, and switch back and forth for that matter as a camouflage for what they’re actually up to.

首先，他们可以利用右翼的仁慈思想和左翼的仁慈思想中的任何一种，并在这件事上来回切换，以此来掩饰他们的实际意图。

You’ve interviewed a lot of people and you have a really powerful mind.

你采访过很多人，你的头脑非常强大。

1:34:26 You have a good read on people.

你对人很有了解。

So how do you know when you’re sitting across from a psychopath?

那么你怎么知道你坐在一个精神病患者对面呢？

I wouldn’t say that I do know.

我不会说我知道。

1:34:34 In normal social circumstances, we have evolved mechanisms to keep people like that under control.

在正常的社会环境中，我们已经进化出一些机制来控制这样的人。

Let’s say that you and I have a series of interactions and you screw me over once.

假设你和我有一系列的互动，你把我搞砸了一次。

I’m not going to forget that.

我不会忘记这一点。

Now, I might not write you off because of the one time, but if it happens three times, it’s like we’re not going to play together anymore.

现在，我可能不会因为一次就放弃你，但如果发生三次，就好像我们不会再一起玩了。

And in normal times, most of our social networks are connected and interacting.

在正常情况下，我们的大多数社交网络都是相互连接和互动的。

So if you ripped me off three times and I noted that, I’m going to tell everybody I know and they’re going to tell everybody they know, and soon everyone will know, and that’s the end of your tricks.

所以，如果你欺骗了我三遍，而我注意到了这一点，我会告诉我认识的每个人，他们也会告诉他们认识的每个人，很快每个人都会知道，这就是你的伎俩的结束。

But that assumes that we know who you are and we’re in continual communication.

但这是假设我们知道您是谁并且我们在持续沟通。

Well, all of that’s gone online.

好吧，所有这些都已经在线了。

So anonymity does that and so does the amplification of emotional intensity by the social media platforms and their algorithms.

匿名可以做到这一点，社交媒体平台及其算法放大情感强度也可以做到这一点。

1:35:35 I think what we’re doing, this is happening on Twitter continually, is we’re giving the 5% of psychopaths a radically disproportionate voice.

我认为我们正在做的事情（推特上不断发生的事情）是我们为 5% 的精神病患者提供了极其不成比例的声音。

And what they’re doing is there’s a bunch of them on the left, and they’re all, we’re so compassionate, and there’s a bunch of them on the right, and at the moment they’re all, we’re so Christian and free speech oriented.

他们所做的是，有一群人在左边，他们都是，我们非常富有同情心，还有一群人在右边，目前他们都是，我们是如此基督教和言论自由导向。

It’s like, no, you’re not.

就像，不，你不是。

You’re narcissistic psychopaths, and that’s your camouflage.

你们是自恋的精神病患者，这就是你们的伪装。

And you hide behind your anonymity and you use fractious and divisive language to attract fools and to elevate your social status and your clout.

你隐藏在匿名背后，使用暴躁和分裂的语言来吸引傻瓜，并提升你的社会地位和影响力。

And not only that, to gain, what would you say, satisfaction for your sadistic impulses.

不仅如此，你会说，为了满足你的施虐冲动。

See, the problem is it’s hard to tell who is the psychopath and who is a heterodox truth seeker.

你看，问题是很难区分谁是精神病患者，谁是非正统的真理寻求者。

Yeah.

是的。

1:36:30 Well, if you were charitable about Tucker Carlson’s recent interview, you’d say that was exactly the conundrum he faced.

好吧，如果你对塔克·卡尔森最近的采访持宽容态度，你会说这正是他面临的难题。

And it is hard.

这很难。

I’ve thought about, for example, interviewing Andrew Tate, and I thought, I don’t think so.

例如，我想过采访安德鲁·泰特，但我想，我不这么认为。

And then I thought, why?

然后我想，为什么？

I figured it’s not obvious to me at all that he wouldn’t charm me.

我认为他不会吸引我对我来说根本不明显。

So I knew this guy, Robert Hare.

所以我认识这个人，罗伯特·黑尔。

Robert Hare was the world’s foremost authority on psychopathy.

罗伯特·黑尔是世界上精神病态方面最重要的权威。

He established the field of clinical analysis of psychopathic behavior, and Hare was a pretty agreeable guy.

他建立了精神病行为临床分析领域，而黑尔是一个非常和蔼可亲的人。

So he would give people the benefit of the doubt, and he interviewed hundreds of serious psychopaths, like imprisoned violent offenders.

所以他会给人们带来好处，他采访了数百名严重的精神病患者，比如被监禁的暴力罪犯。

And he told me in one of our conversations that every time he sat down with a violent offender psychopath, and he had a measure for psychopathy that was a clinical checklist, so he could identify the psychopaths from just the say, run-of-the-mill criminals.

在我们的一次谈话中，他告诉我，每次他与暴力犯罪精神病患者坐下来时，他都会制定一份临床检查表来衡量精神病患者，这样他就可以从普通的罪犯中识别出精神病患者。

Every time he sat down with them, they pulled the wool over his eyes, and he videotaped the interviews.

每次他和他们坐下来时，他们都会蒙住他的眼睛，然后他就把采访录下来。

And it wasn’t until later when he was reviewing the videos that he could see what they were doing, but in person, their tricks were more sophisticated than his detection ability.

直到后来他在查看视频的时候，才看清了他们的所作所为，但就他个人而言，他们的伎俩比他的侦查能力还要高明。

Well, okay, this is fascinating because again, you’re a great interviewer.

好吧，这很有趣，因为你又是一位出色的面试官。

1:37:47 I would love it if you interviewed somebody like Putin.

如果你采访像普京这样的人，我会很高兴。

So this idea that you are a fool in the face of psychopathy just doesn’t jive with me.

因此，“面对精神病患者你是个傻瓜”的想法并不适合我。

I’m an agreeable guy.

我是一个和蔼可亲的人。

1:38:00 That’s the problem.

这就是问题所在。

I’ll give people the benefit of the doubt.

我会给人们无罪推论。

Right.

正确的。

1:38:03 But that’s good because the way you reveal psychopathy is by being agreeable, not weak, but seeking with empathy to understand the other person.

但这是件好事，因为揭示精神变态的方式是表现出友善，而不是软弱，而是以同理心寻求理解他人。

And in the details in the little nuanced ways that they struggle with questions, the psychopathy is revealed just to separate the two things.

在他们与问题作斗争的细节中，精神病态的表现只是为了将这两件事分开。

So one over-representation, psychopathy online with anonymity.

因此，一种过度代表性的、匿名的在线精神病患者。

That’s a serious fascinating problem.

这是一个严重且令人着迷的问题。

But in the interview one-on-one, I don’t know if the job of a human being in conversation is to not talk to psychopaths, but to talk…

但在一对一的采访中，我不知道一个人在谈话中的工作是否不是与精神病患者交谈，而是交谈……

How would you interview Hitler?

你会如何采访希特勒？

Well, I’ve had very difficult clinical interviews with people in my clinical practice.

嗯，我在临床实践中与人们进行了非常困难的临床访谈。

How do you approach that?

你如何处理这个问题？

Well, I really probably approach that the way I approach most conversations.

嗯，我真的很可能像大多数对话一样对待这一点。

1:38:57 And it’s something like, I’m going to assume that you’re playing a straight game, but I’m going to watch, and if you throw the odd crooked maneuver in, then I’ll note it.

就像，我会假设你正在玩一场直线游戏，但我会观察，如果你投入了奇怪的弯曲动作，那么我会注意到它。

And after you do it three times, I’ll think, okay, I see.

当你这样做了三遍之后，我会想，好吧，我明白了。

I thought we were playing one game, but we’re actually playing another one.

我以为我们在玩一款游戏，但实际上我们在玩另一款游戏。

And if I’m smart enough to pick that up, that usually works out quite successfully for me.

如果我足够聪明，能够接受这一点，那么通常对我来说会很成功。

But I’m not always smart enough to pick that up.

但我并不总是足够聪明来接受这一点。

But see, here’s the nice thing.

但是看，这就是好事。

1:39:30 There’s the one-on-one conversation that’s not recorded is different than one that’s listened by a lot of people because I would venture to…

没有记录的一对一对话与很多人听到的对话不同，因为我冒险……

I trust the intelligence of the viewer and the listener to detect even better than you.

我相信观众和听众的智慧会比你更好地发现。

Yes.

是的。

1:39:44 And I think that’s true, by the way.

顺便说一句，我认为这是真的。

To detect this psychopathy.

来检测这种精神病。

Yeah.

是的。

1:39:47 I’ve had the odd interview with people that I wasn’t happy with having organized because I felt that I had brought their ideas to a wider audience than might’ve been appropriate.

我对一些人进行了一次奇怪的采访，我对组织采访并不满意，因为我觉得我把他们​​的想法带给了更广泛的受众，而不是适当的。

But my conclusion and the conclusion of my producers and the people I talked to was that we could run the interview, the discussion and let the audience sort it out.

但我的结论以及我的制片人和与我交谈的人的结论是，我们可以进行采访、讨论，然后让观众来解决。

And I would say they do.

我想说他们确实这么做了。

I think as a general rule of thumb, that’s true.

我认为作为一般经验法则，这是事实。

And I also think that the long form interviews are particularly good at that because it’s not that easy to maintain a manipulative stance, especially if you’re empty for two and a half hours.

我还认为长篇采访特别擅长这一点，因为保持操纵立场并不容易，特别是如果你有两个半小时空着的话。

So you get tired, you get irritable, you show that you lose the track, you’re going to start leaking out your mistakes.

所以你会感到疲倦，你会变得烦躁，你会表现出你迷失了方向，你会开始泄露你的错误。

And that actually is the case for all the world leaders.

事实上，所有世界领导人都是如此。

1:40:38 I would say one hour is too short.

我想说一小时太短了。

Something happens at two hour plus mark where you start to leak.

在开始漏水的两小时后，就会发生一些事情。

And I trust in the intelligence of the listener to detect that.

我相信听众的智慧能够发现这一点。

Yeah.

是的。

1:40:56 And it might be the intelligence of the distributed crowd.

这可能是分散人群的智慧。

And I mean, that’s what I’ve seen with the YouTube interviews is that it’s hard to fool people as such over a protracted period of time.

我的意思是，这就是我在 YouTube 采访中看到的，在很长一段时间内很难欺骗人们。

And I guess it’s partly because everybody brings a slightly different set of falsehood detectors to the table.

我想部分原因是每个人都带来了一套略有不同的虚假检测器。

And if you aggregate that, it’s pretty damn accurate.

如果你把它加起来，就会发现它非常准确。

But of course, it’s complicated because ideas of Nazi ideology spread in the twenties.

但当然，这很复杂，因为纳粹意识形态的思想在二十年代传播。

1:41:21 There was a real battle between Marxism and Nazism.

马克思主义和纳粹主义之间发生了一场真正的战斗。

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

And I believe there’s some attempts at censorship of Nazi ideology.

我相信有人试图对纳粹意识形态进行审查。

1:41:31 Censorship very often does the opposite.

审查制度常常适得其反。

It gives the fringe ideologies power if they’re being censored, because that’s an indication that the man in power doesn’t want the truth to be hurt, this kind of idea.

如果边缘意识形态受到审查，它就会赋予它们权力，因为这表明当权者不希望真相受到伤害，这种想法。

And that just puts fuel to the fire.

这只会火上浇油。

It also motivates the paranoid types because one of the reasons that paranoia spirals out of control is because paranoid people almost inevitably end up being persecuted because they’re so touchy and so suspicious that people start to walk on eggshells around them as if there are things going on behind the scenes.

它还激发了偏执型人，因为偏执型失控的原因之一是因为偏执型人几乎不可避免地最终会受到迫害，因为他们非常敏感和多疑，以至于周围的人开始如履薄冰，好像有事情在幕后发生。

1:41:56 And so then they get more distrustful and more paranoid, and eventually they start misbehaving so badly that they are actually persecuted often by legal authorities, and it’s down the rabbit hole they go.

于是他们变得更加不信任、更加偏执，最终他们开始行为不端，以至于他们实际上经常受到法律当局的迫害，他们就陷入了兔子洞。

And so Musk is betting on that to some degree.

因此，马斯克在某种程度上押注于这一点。

Right?

正确的？

He believes that free expression on Twitter X will sort itself out and be of net benefit.

他相信 Twitter X 上的自由表达将会自行解决并带来净收益。

And I follow a lot of really bad accounts on X because I like to keep an eye on the pathology of the left, let’s say, and the pathology of the right thinking, at least in my clinical way, that I’m watching the psychopaths dance around and try to do what their subversion.

我在 X 上关注了很多非常糟糕的账户，因为我喜欢关注左派的病态，比如说，以及右派思维的病态，至少以我临床的方式，我正在看着精神病患者跳舞并试图做他们的颠覆。

1:42:57 And it’s an ugly place to inhabit, that’s for sure.

这是一个丑陋的居住地，这是肯定的。

But it’s also the case that a very tiny minority of seriously bad actors can have a disproportionate influence.

但事实也是如此，极少数严重不良的演员可能会产生不成比例的影响。

And one of the things I’ve always hoped for for social media channels is that they separate the anonymous accounts from the verified accounts.

我一直希望社交媒体渠道能够将匿名帐户与经过验证的帐户分开。

They should just be in different categories.

它们应该只是属于不同的类别。

People who will say what they think and take the hits to their reputation, anonymous types.

那些会说出自己的想法并承担声誉损失的人，就是匿名类型。

If you want to see what the anonymous types say, you can see it.

如果你想看看匿名类型说了什么，你可以看看。

But don’t be confusing them with actual people because they’re not the same.

但不要将他们与真实的人混淆，因为他们不一样。

We know that people behave more badly when they’re anonymous.

我们知道，当人们匿名时，他们的行为会更加恶劣。

That’s a very well-established psychological finding.

这是一个非常成熟的心理学发现。

Well, and I think the danger to our culture is substantive.

嗯，我认为我们的文化面临着实质性的危险。

I think the reason that perhaps the reason that everything started to go sideways pretty seriously around 2015 is because we invented these new modes of communication.

我认为，也许 2015 年左右一切开始严重恶化的原因是我们发明了这些新的沟通模式。

We have no idea how to police them.

我们不知道如何监管他们。

And so the psychopathic manipulators, they have free reign.

因此，精神变态的操纵者可以自由支配。

About 30% of the internet is pornography.

大约 30% 的互联网内容是色情内容。

1:44:02 A huge amount of internet traffic is outright criminal.

大量的互联网流量是彻头彻尾的犯罪行为。

And there’s a penumbra around that’s psychopathic, narcissistic troublemaking trolls.

周围还有一个阴影，那就是心理变态、自恋、制造麻烦的巨魔。

And that might constitute the bulk of the interactions online.

这可能构成了在线互动的大部分。

And it’s partly because people can’t be held responsible, so the free riders have free reign.

部分原因是人们无法承担责任，所以搭便车者可以自由支配。

It’s a fascinating technical challenge of how to make our society resilient to the psychopaths on the left and the right.

如何让我们的社会能够抵御左翼和右翼的精神病患者，这是一项令人着迷的技术挑战。

It might be the fundamental problem of the age, given the amplification of communication by our social networks.

鉴于我们的社交网络扩大了沟通范围，这可能是这个时代的根本问题。

And so to generalize across psychopaths, you could also think about bots which behave similar to psychopaths in their certainty and not caring.

因此，为了概括精神病患者，您还可以考虑行为与精神病患者相似的机器人，它们的确定性和不关心。

1:44:36 They’re maximizing some function.

他们正在最大化某些功能。

They’re not caring about anything else.

他们不关心其他任何事情。

Attention.

注意力。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

1:44:49 Short-term attention, even worse.

短期关注甚至更糟。

Yeah, because that’s another problem.

是的，因为那是另一个问题。

If the algorithms are maximizing for the grip of short-term attention, they’re acting like immature agents of attention.

如果算法最大化地控制短期注意力，那么它们就像不成熟的注意力代理一样。

Right?

正确的？

And so then imagine the worst-case scenario is negative emotion garners more attention and short-term gratification garners more attention.

因此，想象一下最坏的情况是负面情绪获得更多关注，而短期满足感获得更多关注。

So then you’re maximizing for the grip of short-term attention by negative emotion.

那么你就可以最大限度地利用负面情绪来吸引短期注意力。

I mean, that’s not going to be a principle.

我的意思是，这不会成为原则。

We were talking earlier about unsustainable, unifying axioms, that’s definitely one of them.

我们之前讨论过不可持续的统一公理，这绝对是其中之一。

Maximize for the spread of negative attention, negative emotion that garners short-term attention.

最大限度地传播负面注意力，即获得短期关注的负面情绪。

Jesus, brutal.

天啊，残酷。

I tend to not think there’s that many psychopaths.

我倾向于认为没有那么多精神病患者。

1:45:38 So maybe to push back a little bit, it feels like there’s a small number of psychopaths.

所以也许退一步来说，感觉精神病患者的数量很少。

Three to 5% is the estimate worldwide.

全球估计为 3% 到 5%。

In terms of humans, sure.

就人类而言，当然。

1:45:54 But in terms of the pattern of stuff we see online, my hope is that a lot of people on the extreme left and extreme right, or just the trolls in general are just young people kind of going through the similar stuff that we’ve been talking about, trying on the cynicism and the resentment.

但就我们在网上看到的东西的模式而言，我希望很多极左和极右的人，或者只是一般的巨魔，只是年轻人，正在经历我们一直在谈论的类似事情，试图表现出愤世嫉俗和怨恨。

There’s a drug aspect to it, there’s a pull to that to talk about shit somebody, to take somebody down.

这有毒品的一面，有一种吸引力，可以谈论某人的屎，让某人失望。

I mean, there is some pleasure in that.

我的意思是，这有一些乐趣。

There’s a dark pull towards that.

这有一种黑暗的吸引力。

And I think-

我认为——

That’s the sadistic pull.

这就是虐待狂的吸引力。

And I think a lot of people, I mean, you see, when you say sadistic, it makes it sound like some kind of, it’s a pathology.

我认为很多人，我的意思是，你看，当你说施虐狂时，这听起来像是某种病态。

It’s pleasure in the suffering of others.

这是以别人的痛苦为乐。

Right.

正确的。

1:46:39 But I just think that all of us have the capacity for that.

但我只是认为我们所有人都有能力做到这一点。

All humans have the capacity for that.

所有人类都有能力做到这一点。

Some more than others, but everyone to some degree.

有些人比其他人多，但每个人都在某种程度上。

And when you’re young, you don’t understand the full implications of that on your own self.

当你年轻的时候，你不明白这对你自己的全部影响。

1:46:49 So if you participate in taking other people down, that’s going to have a cost on your own development as a human being.

因此，如果你参与贬低他人，那么你作为一个人的发展就会付出代价。

It’s going to take you towards a Dostoevsky’s, notes from underground in the basement, cynical, all that kind of stuff.

它将带你走向陀思妥耶夫斯基的、来自地下室的地下笔记、愤世嫉俗的诸如此类的东西。

Alone.

独自的。

Which is why a lot of young people try it out.

这也是很多年轻人尝试的原因。

1:47:08 The reason is, you get older and older, you realize that there’s a huge cost to that.

原因是，随着年龄的增长，你会意识到这需要付出巨大的代价。

So you don’t do it.

所以你不这样做。

But there’s young people that…

但有一些年轻人...

So I would like to sort of believe and hope that a large number of people who are trolls are just trying out the derision.

所以我愿意相信并希望大量的巨魔只是在尝试嘲笑。

No doubt.

无疑。

So they can be saved, they could be helped.

这样他们就可以被拯救，他们就可以得到帮助。

1:47:25 They could be shown that there’s more growth, there’s more flourishing to celebrating other people and actually criticizing ideas, but not in the way of derision LOL, but by formulating your own self in the world by formulating your ideas in a strong, powerful way, and also removing the cloak of anonymity and just standing behind your ideas and carrying the responsibility of those ideas.

可以向他们表明，庆祝他人和实际批评想法会带来更多的成长和繁荣，但不是以嘲笑的方式，哈哈，而是通过以强有力的方式表达你的想法，在世界上表达你自己，同时摘下匿名的外衣，只是站在你的想法背后，承担这些想法的责任。

Yeah.

是的。

I think all of that is right.

我认为这一切都是对的。

1:47:56 I think the idea that that’s more likely to occur among young people, that’s clear.

我认为这种情况更有可能发生在年轻人中，这是显而易见的。

People as they mature, get more agreeable and conscientious.

人随着成熟，会变得更加随和和认真。

So we actually know that what you said is true technically.

所以我们实际上知道你所说的在技术上是正确的。

It’s definitely the case that there’s an innate tilt towards pleasure in that sort of behavior.

毫无疑问，这种行为有一种与生俱来的快乐倾向。

And it is associated to some degree with dominance, striving.

它在某种程度上与统治、奋斗有关。

And I do think it’s true, as you pointed out, that many of the people who are toying with that pattern can be socialized out of it.

我确实认为，正如您所指出的，许多正在玩弄这种模式的人可以摆脱这种模式进行社交。

In fact, maybe most people, even the repeat criminal types tend to desist in their late twenties.

事实上，也许大多数人，甚至是屡犯的人，都会在二十多岁的时候停止犯罪。

So 1% of the criminals commit 65% of the crimes.

因此，1% 的犯罪分子犯下了 65% 的犯罪行为。

Imagine that that 1% are the people that you’re really concerned with.

想象一下，那 1% 是你真正关心的人。

They often have stable patterns of offending that emerged very, very young, like even in infancy and continued through adolescence and into adulthood.

他们往往有稳定的犯罪模式，这些模式在很小很小的时候就出现了，甚至在婴儿期就出现了，并持续到青春期直至成年。

1:48:56 If you keep them in prison until they’re in the middle of their late twenties, most of them stop.

如果你把他们关在监狱里直到二十多岁，他们中的大多数人都会停下来。

And the easiest way to understand that might just be delayed maturation.

理解这一点的最简单方法可能就是延迟成熟。

So are most people salvageable?

那么大多数人都是可以挽救的吗？

Yes, definitely.

是的，绝对是。

Is everyone salvageable?

每个人都有救吗？

Well, at some point it becomes, first of all, they have to want to be salvaged.

好吧，在某些时候，首先，他们必须想要被拯救。

That’s a problem.

这是一个问题。

But then it also becomes something like, well, how much resources are you going to devote to that?

但随后它也变成了这样的问题：你要为此投入多少资源？

The farther down the rabbit hole you’ve gone, the more energy it takes to haul you up.

你在兔子洞里走得越远，把你拉上来所需的能量就越多。

So there comes a point where the probability that you’ll be able to get enough resources devoted to you to rescue you from the pit of hell that you’ve dug is zero.

因此，到了某个时刻，你能够获得足够的资源来将你从自己挖的地狱中拯救出来的可能性为零。

And that’s a very sad thing.

这是一件非常悲伤的事情。

And it’s very hard to be around someone who’s in that situation, very, very hard.

和处于这种情况的人在一起是非常困难的，非常非常困难。

And it seems that it’s more likely that the leaders of movements are going to be psychopaths, and the followers of movements are going to be the people that we’re mentioning that are kind of lost themselves to the ideology of the movement.

运动的领导者似乎更有可能是精神病患者，而运动的追随者将是我们提到的那些迷失于运动意识形态的人。

Well, we know that what you said is true even historically, to a large degree, because Germany was successfully de-Nazified.

嗯，我们知道，即使在历史上，你所说的在很大程度上也是正确的，因为德国成功地去纳粹化了。

1:50:05 And it’s not like everybody who participated in every element of the Nazi movement was brought to justice.

并不是所有参与纳粹运动各个部分的人都被绳之以法。

Not in the least.

一点也不。

The same thing happened in Japan.

同样的事情也发生在日本。

So to some degree, the same thing happened in South Africa.

所以在某种程度上，同样的事情也发生在南非。

Right?

正确的？

And it’s the case, for example, also in the stories that we were referring to earlier, the biblical stories that patriarchs of the Bible, most of them are pretty bad people when they first start out.

例如，在我们之前提到的故事中，圣经的族长们中的大多数在刚开始时都是非常坏的人。

Jacob is the one who becomes Israel.

雅各就是成为以色列的那一位。

He’s a major player in the biblical narrative, and he’s a pretty bad actor when he first starts out.

他是圣经叙事中的主要角色，刚开始时他是一个非常糟糕的演员。

He’s a mama’s boy.

他是妈妈的儿子。

He’s a liar.

他是个骗子。

He steals from his own brother, and in a major way, he deceives his father.

他从自己的兄弟那里偷东西，并且在很大程度上欺骗了他的父亲。

He’s a coward, and yet he turns his life around.

他是个胆小鬼，但他却扭转了自己的生活。

So be careful the leaders you idolize in worship, but then it’s not always clear to know who is the good and who’s the evil.

因此，要小心你崇拜的领袖，但并不总是清楚地知道谁是好人，谁是坏人。

Yeah.

是的。

It’s hard.

这很难。

1:51:15 You have been through some dark places in your mind, over your life.

在你的一生中，你的思想中经历过一些黑暗的地方。

What have been some of your darker hours, and how did you find the light?

你经历过哪些黑暗的时刻？你是如何找到光明的？

Well, I would say I started contending with the problem of evil very young, 13 or 14.

嗯，我想说，我很小的时候就开始与邪恶的问题作斗争，13 岁或 14 岁。

1:51:27 And that was my main motivation of study for 30 years, I guess, something like that.

我想这就是我30年来学习的主要动机，类似的事情。

At the end of that 30 years, I became more and more interested in fleshing out the alternative.

在那 30 年结束时，我对充实替代方案越来越感兴趣。

Once I became convinced that evil existed, and that was very young, I always believed that if you could understand something well enough that you could formulate a solution to it.

一旦我确信邪恶的存在，而且那是在很小的时候，我就一直相信，如果你能够充分理解某件事，你就能制定出解决方案。

But it turns out that seeing evil and understanding that it exists is less complicated than a technical description of its opposite, what is good.

但事实证明，看到邪恶并理解它的存在并不比对其对立面即善的技术描述简单。

You can say, well, it’s not that for sure.

你可以说，好吧，这还不确定。

It’s not Auschwitz.

这不是奥斯维辛。

How about we start there?

我们从那里开始怎么样？

It’s as far from Auschwitz as you can get.

这里距离奥斯维辛集中营有多远。

It’s as far from enjoying being an Auschwitz camp guard as you can get.

这远不是你能享受到的成为奥斯威辛集中营看守的乐趣。

1:52:38 Okay, well, where are you when you’re as far away from that as you could possibly get?

好吧，那么，当你离那个地方尽可能远时，你在哪里？

What does that mean?

这意味着什么？

And it does have something to do with play, as far as I’m concerned.

就我而言，这确实与玩耍有关。

I think the antithesis of tyranny is play.

我认为暴政的对立面是游戏。

So that took me a long time to figure out that specifically.

所以我花了很长时间才具体弄清楚这一点。

So that was very dark.

所以那是非常黑暗的。

I spent a lot of time studying the worst behaviors that I could discover abstractly in books, but also in my clinical practice and in my observations of people.

我花了很多时间研究最糟糕的行为，这些行为是我在书本中抽象发现的，也是在我的临床实践和对人的观察中发现的。

And so that’s rough.

所以这很粗糙。

More recently, I was very ill and in a tremendous amount of pain that lasted pretty much without any break for three years.

最近，我病得很重，承受着巨大的痛苦，几乎持续了三年没有休息。

And what was particularly useful to me then was the strength of my relationships, my immediate relationships, my friendships.

那时对我特别有用的是我的人际关系的强度，我的直接关系，我的友谊。

Also, the relationships that I had established more broadly with people.

此外，我与人们建立了更广泛的关系。

1:53:45 Because by the time I became ill, I was reasonably well known and people were very supportive when I was having trouble, and that was very helpful.

因为当我生病时，我已经相当出名了，当我遇到困难时，人们非常支持我，这非常有帮助。

But it’s certainly the case that it was the connections I had, particularly with my family, but also with my friends, that were the saving grace.

但可以肯定的是，我所拥有的联系，特别是与我的家人以及我的朋友之间的联系，才是可取之处。

And that’s something to know.

这是需要知道的事情。

I mean, it’s necessary to bear the burdens of the world on your own shoulders, that’s for sure, the burdens of your own existence and whatever other responsibilities you can mount.

我的意思是，你有必要将世界的重担扛在你自己的肩上，当然，你自己的存在的重担以及你可以承担的任何其他责任。

But that by no means, means that you can or should do it alone.

但这绝不意味着您可以或应该单独完成。

And so you might say, well, welcoming the adversity of life as a redemptive challenge is a task that’s beyond the ability of the typical person or even maybe of anyone.

所以你可能会说，好吧，将生活中的逆境视为一种救赎挑战是一项超出普通人甚至任何人能力的任务。

But then when you think, well, you’re not alone, maybe you’re not alone socially, you’re not alone familial, maybe you’re not alone metaphysically as well, there’s an insistence.

但当你想，嗯，你并不孤单，也许你在社交上并不孤单，你在家庭中并不孤单，也许你在形而上学上也不孤单，就会有一种坚持。

1:54:47 And I think it’s true.

我认为这是真的。

There’s an insistence, for example, in the old and the new testament alike, that the more darkness you’re willing to voluntarily encounter, the more likely it is that the spirit of Abraham and the patriarchs will walk with you.

例如，在旧约和新约中都坚持认为，你愿意自愿面对的黑暗越多，亚伯拉罕和族长的精神就越有可能与你同行。

And I think that’s right.

我认为这是对的。

I think it’s sort of technically true in that the best parts of yourself make themselves manifest.

我认为这在技术上是正确的，因为你最好的部分会表现出来。

If you want to think about it that way, the best parts of yourself, whatever that means, make themselves manifest when you’re contending actively and voluntarily with the most difficult challenges.

如果你想这样思考，那么当你积极、自愿地应对最困难的挑战时，你自己最好的部分，无论这意味着什么，都会表现出来。

Why wouldn’t it be that way?

为什么不会那样呢？

And then you could think, well, that’s yourself.

然后你可能会想，好吧，那就是你自己。

It’s like, well, are the best unrevealed parts of you yourself?

就像，嗯，你自己最好的未揭露的部分是吗？

Well, no, they’re a kind of metaphysical reality.

嗯，不，它们是一种形而上的现实。

They’re not yet manifest.

它们还没有显现出来。

They only exist in potential.

它们仅存在于潜力中。

They transcend anything you’re currently capable of, but they have an existence.

它们超越了你目前的能力，但它们确实存在。

You could call that yourself.

你可以自己这么称呼。

1:55:45 But it was Jung’s contention, for example, with regards to such terminology that the reason we use the term self instead of God is because when God was dispensed with, let’s say, by the processes Nietzsche described, we just found the same thing deep within the instinctive realm.

但荣格的论点是，例如，对于此类术语，我们使用“自我”一词而不是“上帝”一词的原因是，当上帝被免除时，比方说，通过尼采描述的过程，我们只是在本能领域深处发现了同样的东西。

Let’s say we found it at the bottom…

假设我们在底部找到了它......

1:56:03 Deep within the instinctive realm, let’s say, we found it at the bottom of the things instead of at the top.

比方说，在本能领域的深处，我们发现它位于事物的底部而不是顶部。

It’s like it doesn’t matter.

好像没关系。

It doesn’t matter fundamentally.

从根本上来说这并不重要。

What matters is whether or not that’s a reality.

重要的是这是否是现实。

And I think it’s the fundamental reality because I do think that the deeper you delve into things…

我认为这是基本现实，因为我确实认为你研究得越深入……

This is what happens to Moses when he encounters the burning bush.

这就是摩西遇到燃烧的荆棘时所发生的事情。

So Moses is just going about his life.

所以摩西只是在谈论他的生活。

He’s a shepherd, he’s an adult.

他是一个牧羊人，他是一个成年人。

He has wives, he has children, he has responsibilities.

他有妻子，他有孩子，他有责任。

He’s left his home and he’s established himself.

他离开了家，建立了自己的地位。

And so things are pretty good for Moses.

所以事情对摩西来说非常好。

And then he’s out by Mount Horeb in that story, but it’s the central mountain of the world.

然后他在那个故事中去了何烈山，但那是世界的中心山。

It’s the same mountain as Sinai, which is the place where heaven and earth touch.

它与西奈山是同一座山，是天地相连的地方。

And he sees something that grabs his attention, right?

他看到了一些引起他注意的东西，对吗？

1:56:53 That’s the burning bush.

那是燃烧的灌木丛。

And bush is a tree.

灌木是一棵树。

That’s life.

这就是生活。

That’s the tree of life.

这就是生命之树。

And the fact that it’s on fire is that’s life exaggerated because everything that’s alive is on fire.

事实上，它着火了，这就是生命的夸大，因为一切有生命的东西都在着火。

And so what calls to Moses is the spirit of being itself, and it tracks him off the beaten track, and he decides to go investigate.

因此，召唤摩西的是存在本身的精神，它让他偏离了人迹罕至的轨道，他决定去调查。

So Moses is everyone who goes off the beaten track to investigate.

所以摩西是每个不走寻常路去调查的人。

And so as he investigates, he delves more and more deeply until he starts to understand that he’s now walking on sacred ground.

因此，当他调查时，他会越来越深入，直到他开始明白自己现在正走在神圣的土地上。

So he takes off his shoes, and that’s a symbolic reference of identity transformation.

于是他脱掉了鞋子，这是身份转变的象征意义。

He’s no longer walking the same path.

他不再走同一条路。

He no longer has the same identity.

他不再具有相同的身份。

He’s in a state of flux.

他正处于不断变化的状态。

And that’s when what happens is that he continues to interact with this calling and Moses asks what it is that’s being revealed, and God says, I’m the spirit of being itself.

就在那时，他继续与这个呼召互动，摩西问正在揭示的是什么，上帝说，我就是存在本身的精神。

1:57:51 That’s basically the answer.

这基本上就是答案。

I am what I am.

我就是我。

It’s a more complex utterance than that.

这是一个比这更复杂的说法。

I am what I will be.

我就是我将成为的人。

I am what was becoming.

我就是即将成为的人。

It’s all of that at the same time, it’s the spirit of being that’s speaking to him, the spirit of being and becoming.

所有这一切同时发生，是存在的精神在对他说话，存在和成为的精神。

And it tells Moses that he now, because he’s delved so deeply into something so compelling, his identity has transformed and he’s become the leader who can speak truth to power.

它告诉摩西，现在，因为他对如此引人注目的事情进行了如此深入的研究，他的身份已经发生了转变，他已经成为可以对权力说出真相的领导者。

And so he allies himself with his brother Aaron, who’s the political arm and who can communicate, and he goes back to Egypt to confront the tyrant.

因此，他与他的兄弟亚伦结盟，亚伦是政治力量，能够沟通，他回到埃及对抗暴君。

And that’s an indication of that idea that if you wrestle with life properly, that the spirit of being and becoming walks with you.

这表明了这样一种想法：如果你正确地与生活搏斗，存在和成为的精神就会与你同行。

And it’s like, how can that not be true?

就像，这怎么可能不是真的呢？

Because the contrary would be that there would be no growth in challenge.

因为相反，挑战就不会增长。

Well, you have to be infinitely nihilistic to believe that.

好吧，你必须具有无限的虚无主义才能相信这一点。

It’s obvious, but it’s also just fascinating that hardship is the thing that ends up being the catalyst for delving deeply.

这是显而易见的，但同样令人着迷的是，困难最终成为深入研究的催化剂。

It’s hardship voluntarily undertaken.

这是自愿承担的困难。

1:59:02 And it’s crucially true.

这是千真万确的。

Look, if you bring someone into therapy, let’s say they’re afraid of elevators and you trick them into getting near an elevator, you’ll make them worse.

听着，如果你带某人接受治疗，假设他们害怕电梯，而你诱骗他们靠近电梯，你会让他们变得更糟。

But if you negotiate with them so that they voluntarily move towards the elevator on their own recognizance, they’ll overcome their fear and they become generally braver, but it has to be voluntary.

但如果你与他们协商，让他们在自己的担保下自愿走向电梯，他们就会克服恐惧，变得更加勇敢，但这必须是自愿的。

See, I got to push back and explore with you the question of voluntarily.

瞧，我必须回过头来和你一起探讨自愿的问题。

1:59:31 Let’s look at Nietzsche.

我们来看看尼采。

He suffered through several health issues throughout his life, migraines, eyesight issues, digestive problems, depression with suicidal thoughts, and yet he is one of the greatest minds in the history of humanity.

他一生遭受多种健康问题的困扰，包括偏头痛、视力问题、消化问题、抑郁症和自杀念头，但他是人类历史上最伟大的思想家之一。

So were these problems that he was suffering, arguably involuntarily, a feature or a bug?

那么他所遇到的这些问题（可以说是非自愿的）是一个功能还是一个错误？

That’s a good question.

这是一个好问题。

1:59:58 The same thing happens in the story of Job.

同样的事情也发生在约伯记的故事中。

Because Job is a good man.

因为约伯是个好人。

God himself admits it.

神自己也承认这一点。

And Satan comes along and says to God, “I see you’re pretty proud of your man there, Job.” God says, “Yeah, he’s doing pretty well.” And Satan says, “I think it’s just because things are easy for him.

撒旦出现并对上帝说：“我看到你为你的同伴约伯感到非常自豪。”上帝说：“是的，他做得很好。”撒旦说：“我认为这只是因为事情对他来说很容易。

Let me have a crack at him and see what happens.” And God says, “Yeah, I think you’re wrong.

让我来试试他，看看会发生什么。”上帝说：“是的，我认为你错了。

Do your worst.” Right?

尽你所能。”正确的？

And that’s how people feel when those slings and arrows come at them, let’s say like Nietzsche.

这就是人们在那些投石器和箭射向他们时的感受，比如说尼采。

Well Job’s response to that…

乔布斯对此的回应……

Now the story is set up so that what befalls Job is actually quite arbitrary, these catastrophes that you’re describing.

现在，故事的设定使得约伯身上发生的事情实际上是相当任意的，你所描述的这些灾难。

The volunteerism in Job is his refusal to despair even in the face of that adversity.

《约伯记》中的志愿精神是他即使面对逆境也拒绝绝望。

And that seems like something like an expression of voluntary free will.

这似乎是自愿自由意志的表达。

2:00:47 He refuses to lose faith.

他拒绝失去信心。

And the way the story ends is that Job gets everything back and more.

故事的结局是约伯拿回了一切，甚至更多。

So that’s a dissent and assent story.

所以这是一个反对和同意的故事。

And a cynic might say, “Well, the ends don’t justify the means.” And I would say, “Fair enough.” But that’s a pretty shallow interpretation of the story.

愤世嫉俗的人可能会说：“好吧，为了目的不值得不择手段。”我会说：“很公平。”但这是对这个故事的相当肤浅的解释。

What it indicates instead is that if you’re fortunate, because let’s not forget that, and you optimize your attitude even in the face of adversity, that it’s not infrequently the case that your fortunes will reverse.

相反，它表明的是，如果你很幸运，因为我们不要忘记这一点，并且即使面对逆境你也能优化你的态度，那么你的命运逆转的情况并不罕见。

And I’ve found that in many situations, the journalists whose goal was most malicious in relationship to me, who were most concerned with improving their own, what would you say?

我发现，在很多情况下，那些对我来说目标最恶意、最关心提高自己的记者，你会怎么说？

Fostering their own notoriety and gaining social status at my expense, were the ones who did me the greatest favor.

那些以牺牲我为代价来培养自己的恶名并获得社会地位的人，才是对我最大的帮助。

Those were the interviews that went viral.

这些采访广为流传。

And so that’s interesting because they were definitely the places where the most disaster was at hand.

这很有趣，因为它们绝对是灾难最严重的地方。

And I felt that in the aftermath every time that happened, my whole family was destabilized for two months because things…

我觉得每次发生这种事之后，我的整个家庭都会在两个月内不稳定，因为事情......

It wasn’t obvious at all which way the dice were going to roll.

骰子会朝哪个方向滚动根本不明显。

But you leaned into that.

但你倾向于这一点。

2:02:13 So in a sense that there’s this kind of a transformation from the involuntary to the voluntary, basically saying, “Bring it on.” That act of bring it on turns the involuntary hardship into voluntary hardship.

因此，从某种意义上说，这是一种从非自愿到自愿的转变，基本上就是说，“放手吧”。这种采取行动将非自愿的困难变成自愿的困难。

Well, not necessarily, let’s say, but you could say that’s your best bet.

好吧，不一定，但你可以说这是你最好的选择。

2:02:29 Well, I’m never going to say that you can transcend all catastrophe with the right attitude, because that’s just too much to say.

好吧，我永远不会说你可以以正确的态度超越所有灾难，因为这实在是太多了。

But I could say that in a dire situation, there’s always an element of choice.

但我可以说，在严峻的情况下，总有选择的因素。

And if you make the right choices, you improve the degree, you improve your chances of success to the maximal possible degree.

如果你做出正确的选择，你就能提高学位，最大限度地提高成功的机会。

It might be too much to say, but nevertheless could be true.

说起来可能太多了，但仍然可能是真的。

2:03:05 Viktor Frankl, Marcus Aurelius.

维克托·弗兰克尔、马库斯·奥勒留。

Well, that’s what the resurrection story proclaims, is that even under the imaginable circumstances, the fundamental finale is the victory of the good.

好吧，这就是复活故事所宣告的，即使在可以想象的情况下，最终的结局也是正义的胜利。

2:03:14 And that seems to me to be true.

在我看来，这是真的。

Do you have regrets when you look back at your life in the full analysis of it?

当你回顾自己的一生并充分分析它时，你是否感到遗憾？

Well, as I said, I was very ill for about three years, and it was seriously brutal.

嗯，正如我所说，我病了大约三年，而且非常残酷。

2:03:40 This is no lie.

这不是谎言。

Every single minute of that three years was worse than any single time I’d ever experienced in my entire life up to that.

那三年的每一分钟都比我一生中经历过的任何一次都要糟糕。

So that was rough.

所以这很艰难。

Was the roughest the physical or the psychological?

最艰难的是身体上的还是心理上的？

Pain.

疼痛。

Just literal pain?

只是字面上的痛苦吗？

Yep.

是的。

2:04:05 Yeah, I was walking like 10 to 12 miles a day, rain or shine, winter, didn’t matter, not good.

是的，我每天步行 10 到 12 英里，无论风雨无阻，冬天，都没关系，不好。

And it was worse than that because as the day progressed, my pain levels would fall until by 10, 11 at night when I was starting to get tired.

情况比这更糟糕，因为随着时间的推移，我的疼痛程度会下降，直到晚上 10 点、11 点我开始感到疲倦。

I was approaching, what would you say?

我已经走近了，你会说什么？

I was approaching something like an ordinary bad day, but as soon as I went to sleep, then the clock was reset and all the pain came back.

我快要迎来糟糕的一天了，但一入睡，时钟就重置了，所有的疼痛又回来了。

And so it wasn’t just that I was in pain, it was that sleep itself became an enemy.

所以，不仅仅是我感到痛苦，睡眠本身也成为了敌人。

And that’s really rough, man, because sleep is where you take refuge, you’re worn out, you’re tired, and you go to sleep and you wake up and it’s generally, it’s something approximating a new day.

这真的很艰难，伙计，因为睡眠是你的避难所，你精疲力尽，你累了，你睡着了，你醒来，通常，这就是新的一天。

2:05:10 This was Sisyphus on steroids.

这是服用类固醇的西西弗斯。

It was very difficult to maintain hope in that, because I would do what I could.

对此保持希望是非常困难的，因为我会尽力而为。

There were times when it took me like an hour and a half in the morning to stand up.

有时我早上要花一个半小时才能站起来。

I’d do all that and more or less put myself back into something remotely resembling human by the end of the day.

我会做所有这些，并在一天结束时或多或少地让自己回到与人类有点相似的状态。

And then I knew perfectly well, exhausted, if I fell asleep that I was going to be right at the bottom of the bloody hill again.

然后，我精疲力竭地清楚地知道，如果我睡着了，我就会再次来到该死的山脚下。

And so after a couple of years of that, it was definitely the fact that I had a family that carried me through that.

几年后，我的家庭支撑着我度过了这一切。

What did you learn about yourself, about yourself, and about the human mind from that, from all of those days?

从那些日子里，你对你自己、对你自己、对人类心灵有什么了解？

Well, I think I learned more gratitude for the people I had around me.

嗯，我想我对周围的人更加感激。

2:05:55 And I learned how fortunate I was to have that and how crucial that was.

我了解到我能拥有它是多么幸运，而且它是多么重要。

My wife learned something similar.

我的妻子也学到了类似的东西。

She was diagnosed with a form of cancer that, as far as we know, killed every single person who ever had it except her.

她被诊断出患有一种癌症，据我们所知，除了她之外，所有患有这种癌症的人都死于这种癌症。

It’s quite rare.

这是相当罕见的。

And her experience was that what really gave her hope and played at least a role in saving her was the realization of the depth of love that her son, in particular, had for her.

她的经历是，真正给她带来希望并至少在拯救她方面发挥作用的是认识到她的儿子，尤其是对她的爱的深度。

And that says nothing about her relationship with Mikhaila, with her daughter.

这并没有说明她和米哈伊拉以及她女儿的关系。

It just so happened that it was the revelation of that love, that it made Tammy understand the value of her life in a way that she wouldn’t have realized of her own accord.

恰巧，正是那份爱的启示，让塔米以一种她自己无法意识到的方式理解了她生命的价值。

2:06:51 We’re very, very…

我们非常非常……

There’s no difference between ourselves and the people that we love.

我们自己和我们所爱的人没有区别。

And there might be no difference between ourselves and everyone everywhere, but we can at least realize that, to begin with, in the form of the people that we love.

我们自己和世界各地的每个人之间可能没有什么区别，但我们至少可以从我们所爱的人的形式开始意识到这一点。

And I hope I’m better at that than I was.

我希望我在这方面比以前做得更好。

I think I’m better at it than I was.

我想我比以前更擅长了。

I’m a lot more grateful for just ordinariness than I was because when I first recovered, I remember, I first started to recover I was standing in this pharmacy waiting for a prescription in a little town, and they weren’t being particularly efficient about it.

我比以前更感激自己的平凡，因为当我第一次康复时，我记得，我第一次开始康复时，我站在一个小镇的药房里等待处方，而他们对此并没有特别有效。

2:07:28 And so I was in that, standing in the aisle for 20 minutes, and I thought, “I’m not on fire.

于是我就陷入了这样的境地，在过道里站了 20 分钟，我想：“我没有着火。

I could just stand here for the rest of my life, just not being in pain and enjoying that.” And that would have been something that before that would have been, I would have been impatient and raring to go because I didn’t have 20 minutes to stand in the middle of an aisle.

我可以就这样站在这里度过我的余生，只是不再感到痛苦，而是享受其中。”在那之前，我会很不耐烦，迫不及待地想要去，因为我没有 20 分钟时间站在过道中间。

And I thought, “Well, if you’re just standing there and you’re not on fire, things are a lot better than they might be.” And I certainly, I know that, and I think I remember it almost all the time.

我想，“好吧，如果你只是站在那里并且没有着火，那么事情就比想象中要好得多。”我当然知道这一点，而且我想我几乎一直记得这一点。

You gain a greater ability to appreciate the mundane moments of life.

你将获得更强的能力来欣赏生活中的平凡时刻。

Yeah, definitely.

是的，绝对是。

2:08:09 The miracle of the mundane, right?

平凡的奇迹，对吗？

Yeah.

是的。

I think Nietzsche had that because he was very ill.

我认为尼采有这样的经历是因为他病得很重。

2:08:14 And so I suspect he had…

所以我怀疑他……

And he was regarded by the inhabitants of the village that he lived in, near the end of his life, as something approximating a saint.

在他生命的最后时刻，他所居住的村庄的居民将他视为接近圣人的人。

He apparently conducted himself very admirably despite all his suffering.

尽管遭受了种种苦难，他显然表现得非常令人钦佩。

But that still, there’s this tension, as there is in much of Nietzsche’s work, between the miracle of the mundane, appreciating the miracle of the mundane versus fearing the tyranny of the mediocre.

但正如尼采的许多作品中一样，在平凡的奇迹、欣赏平凡的奇迹与害怕平庸的暴政之间仍然存在着这种紧张关系。

It’s more the mediocre and resentful.

更多的是平庸和怨恨。

Yes, but that’s you giving him a pass or seeing the good.

是的，但那是你给了他通行证或者看到了好的一面。

Well, fair enough.

好吧，很公平。

There’s a kind of…

有一种……

2:09:01 I mean, the tyranny of the mediocre, I always hated this idea that some people are better than others, and I understand it, but it’s a dangerous idea.

我的意思是，平庸者的暴政，我一直讨厌这种认为有些人比其他人更好的想法，我理解这一点，但这是一个危险的想法。

This is why I like the story of Cain and Abel, I would say.

我想说，这就是为什么我喜欢该隐和亚伯的故事。

2:09:12 Because Cain is mediocre, but that’s because he refuses to do his best.

因为该隐很平庸，但那是因为他拒绝尽力而为。

It’s not something intrinsic to him.

这不是他固有的东西。

And I actually think that’s the right formulation because I had people in my clinical practice who were, they were lost in many dimensions from the perspective of comparison.

事实上，我认为这是正确的表述，因为在我的临床实践中，有人从比较的角度来看，他们在很多方面都迷失了。

One woman I remember in particular who, man, she had a lot to contend with, she was not educated, she was not intelligent.

我特别记得一位女士，男人，她有很多事情要面对，她没有受过教育，她也不聪明。

She had a brutal family, terrible history of psychiatric hospitalization.

她有一个残酷的家庭，有可怕的精神病住院史。

And when I met her at a hospital, she was an outpatient from the psychiatric ward, and she had been in there with people that she thought were worse off than her, and they were.

当我在医院见到她时，她是精神科病房的一名门诊病人，她和那些她认为比她状况更糟的人一起住在那里，而他们确实是这样。

And that was a long way down.

那还有很长的路要走。

2:10:14 That was like Dante’s Inferno level down.

这就像但丁的《地狱》的水平下降了。

It was a long-term, psychiatric inpatient ward.

这是一个长期的精神科住院病房。

Some of the people had been there for 30 years.

有些人已经在那里呆了30年了。

It made One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest look like a romantic comedy.

这让《飞越疯人院》看起来像一部浪漫喜剧。

And she had come back to see if she could take some of those people for a walk, and was trying to find out how to get permission to do it.

她回来是想看看是否可以带其中一些人去散步，并试图找出如何获得这样做的许可。

Better than other people.

比其他人更好。

Some people are more intelligent, some people are more beautiful, some people are more athletic.

有的人比较聪明，有的人比较漂亮，有的人比较运动。

Maybe it’s possible for everyone at all levels of attainment to strive towards the good.

也许每个人在不同的造诣水平上都可以努力向善。

And maybe those talents that are given to people unfairly don’t privilege them in relationship to their moral conduct.

也许那些不公平地赋予人们的才能并没有在他们的道德行为方面给予他们特权。

And I think that’s true.

我认为这是真的。

There’s no evidence, for example, that there’s any correlation whatsoever between intelligence and morality.

例如，没有证据表明智力和道德之间存在任何相关性。

You’re not better because you’re smart.

你并不因为聪明而变得更好。

And what that also implies is if you’re smart, you can be a lot better at being worse.

这也意味着，如果你很聪明，你就能在变得更糟的时候做得更好。

I think, for myself, I’m just afraid of dismissing people because of my perception of them.

我想，就我自己而言，我只是害怕因为我对别人的看法而解雇他们。

Yeah.

是的。

2:11:32 Well, that’s why we have that metaphysical presumption that everybody’s made in the image of God.

嗯，这就是为什么我们有形而上学的假设，即每个人都是按照上帝的形象创造的。

Despite that immense diversity of apparent ability, there’s that underlying metaphysical assumption that, yeah, we all vary in our perceived and actual utility in relationship to any proximal goal, but all of that’s independent of the question of axiomatic worth.

尽管表面能力存在巨大差异，但有一个潜在的形而上学假设，是的，我们在与任何最近目标的关系中的感知和实际效用都各不相同，但所有这些都与公理价值问题无关。

And preposterous as that notion appears to be, it seems to me that societies that accept it as a fundamental axiomatic presumption are always the societies that you’d want to live in if you had a choice.

尽管这个概念看起来很荒谬，但在我看来，如果你有选择的话，接受它作为基本公理假设的社会总是你想要生活的社会。

And that to me is an existence proof for the utility of the presumption.

对我来说，这是该推定效用的存在证明。

And also, if you treat people like that in your life, every encounter you have, you make the assumption that it’s a radical equality of worth despite individual variance in ability, something like that, man, your interactions go way better.

而且，如果你在生活中，每次遇到的人都这样对待别人，你就会假设，尽管个人能力存在差异，但这是一种根本上的价值平等，就像这样，伙计，你们的互动会更好。

I mean, everyone wants to be treated that way.

我的意思是，每个人都希望被这样对待。

2:12:38 Look, here’s a developmental sequence for you, naive and trusting, hurt and cynical.

看，这是你的发展顺序，天真和信任，受伤和愤世嫉俗。

Okay, well, is hurt and cynical better than naive and trusting?

好吧，受伤和愤世嫉俗比天真和信任更好吗？

It’s like, yeah, probably.

就像，是的，可能。

Is that where it ends?

这就是结束了吗？

How about cynical and trusting as step three?

第三步是愤世嫉俗和信任怎么样？

And then the trust becomes courage.

然后信任就变成了勇气。

It’s like, yeah, I’ll put my hand out for you, but it’s not because I’m a fool.

就像，是的，我会为你伸出援手，但这并不是因为我是个傻瓜。

And I think that’s right, because that’s the re-instantiation of that initial trust that makes childhood magical and paradisal.

我认为这是对的，因为这是对最初信任的重新实例化，正是这种信任使童年变得神奇和天堂。

But it’s the admixture of that with wisdom.

但这是智慧与智慧的结合。

It’s like, yeah, we could walk together uphill, but that doesn’t mean, and I’ll presume that that’s your aim, but that doesn’t mean that I’m not going to watch.

就像，是的，我们可以一起走上山，但这并不意味着，我假设那是你的目标，但这并不意味着我不会看。

What’s a better life, cynical and safe or hopeful and vulnerable to be hurt?

什么是更好的生活，愤世嫉俗且安全，还是充满希望但容易受到伤害？

Oh, you can’t dispense with vulnerable to be hurt.

哦，你不能免于受到伤害。

2:13:42 That’s the other realization.

这是另一种认识。

It’s like you’re going to stake your life on something.

就像你要把自己的生命押在某件事上一样。

You could stake your life on security, but it’s not going to help.

你可以把自己的生命押在安全上，但这不会有任何帮助。

You don’t have that option.

你没有这个选择。

So what do you do when you’re betrayed ultimately by some people you come across.

那么，当你最终被遇到的一些人背叛时，你会怎么做？

Grieve and look elsewhere.

悲伤并寻找其他地方。

2:14:02 Do what you can to forgive, and not least, so you lighten your own burden.

尽你所能去宽恕，尤其是这样，你就能减轻自己的负担。

Maybe do what you can to help the person who betrayed you.

也许尽你所能来帮助背叛你的人。

And if that all proves impossible, then wash your hands of it and move on to the next adventure.

如果这一切都被证明是不可能的，那么就放弃它，继续下一次冒险吧。

And do it again.

然后再做一次。

Yeah.

是的。

2:14:28 Yeah.

是的。

Boy, this life, something else.

男孩，这一生，还有别的事。

2:14:30 So we’ve been talking about some heavy, difficult topics, and you’ve talked about truth in your Nietzsche lectures and elsewhere.

所以我们一直在谈论一些沉重、困难的话题，而你在尼采的讲座和其他地方谈论了真理。

When you think, when you write, when you speak, how do you find what is true?

当你思考、写作、说话时，你如何找到真实的东西？

Hemingway said, “All you have to do is write one true sentence.” How do you do that?

海明威说：“你所要做的就是写出一个真实的句子。”你是怎么做到的？

Well, I would say first that you practice that.

好吧，我首先要说的是，你要练习这一点。

2:14:53 It’s like that question is something.

好像这个问题是有什么东西。

And Hemingway knew this at least to some degree, and he certainly wrote about it, is that you have to orient your life upward as completely as you can, because otherwise you can’t distinguish between truth and falsehood.

海明威至少在某种程度上知道这一点，他当然也写过这一点，那就是你必须尽可能完全地向上调整你的生活，因为否则你无法区分真理和谎言。

It has to be a practice.

这必须是一种实践。

Now and for me, I started to become serious about that practice when I realized that it was the immorality of the individual, the resentful, craven, deceitful immorality of the individual that led to the terrible atrocities that humans engage in that make us doubt even our own worth.

现在对我来说，当我意识到正是个人的不道德，个人的怨恨、胆怯、欺骗性的不道德导致了人类所犯下的可怕暴行，甚至让我们怀疑自己的价值时，我开始认真对待这种做法。

I became completely convinced of that.

我对此深信不疑。

That the fundamental root cause of evil, let’s say, wasn’t economic or sociological, that it was spiritual, just psychological, and that if that was the case, you had an existential responsibility to aim upward and to tell the truth, and that everything depends on that.

比方说，邪恶的根本原因不是经济或社会学的，而是精神的，只是心理的，如果是这样的话，你就有生存的责任去瞄准并说实话，一切都取决于此。

And I became convinced of that.

我对此深信不疑。

And so then…

那么……

Look, you set your path with your orientation.

看，你根据你的方向设定了你的道路。

That’s how your perceptions work.

这就是你的感知的运作方式。

As soon as you have a goal, a pathway opens up to you and you can see it.

一旦你有了目标，一条道路就会向你敞开，你就能看到它。

And the world divides itself into obstacles and things that move you forward.

世界将自己分为障碍和推动你前进的事物。

And so the pathway that’s in front of you depends on your aim.

因此，你面前的道路取决于你的目标。

The things you perceive are concretizations of your aim.

你所感知到的事物是你目标的具体化。

If your aim is untrue, then you won’t be able to tell the difference between truth and falsehood.

如果你的目标不真实，那么你将无法辨别真假。

And you might say, “Well, how do you know your aim is true?” It’s like, well, you course correct continually, and you can aim towards the ultimate.

你可能会说，“那么，你怎么知道你的目标是真实的呢？”就像，好吧，你不断修正路线，你就可以瞄准终极目标。

Are you ever sure that your aim is the right direction?

您确定您的目标是正确的方向吗？

You become increasingly accurate in your apprehension.

你的理解变得越来越准确。

Is it part of the process to cross the line, to go outside the Overton Window, to dip a toe outside the Overton Window for a bit?

这是跨越界限、走出奥弗顿窗口、在奥弗顿窗口之外尝试一下的过程的一部分吗？

Of course.

当然。

2:16:52 That’s what you do in part in play.

这就是你在游戏中所做的事情。

I was at the Comedy Mothership, and every single comedian was completely reprehensible.

我在喜剧母舰，每一个喜剧演员都应该受到谴责。

All they were doing was saying things that you can’t say.

他们所做的只是说一些你不能说的话。

Well, but it was in play.

好吧，但它正在发挥作用。

What I’m trying to do in my lectures is I’m on the edge.

我在讲座中试图做的是我处于边缘。

I have a question I’m trying to address, and I’m trying to figure it out.

我有一个问题想解决，我想弄清楚。

I don’t know where the conversation is going.

我不知道谈话要去哪里。

Truly, it’s an exploration, and I think the reason that the audiences respond is because they can feel that, it’s a high wire act, and I could fail.

确实，这是一种探索，我认为观众之所以做出反应，是因为他们能感觉到，这是一场走钢丝的表演，我可能会失败。

My lectures have degrees of success.

我的讲座取得了一定程度的成功。

Sometimes I get real fortunate and there’s a perfect narrative arc.

有时我真的很幸运，有一个完美的叙事弧线。

I have a question, I’m investigating it.

我有一个问题，我正在调查。

It comes to a punchline conclusion just at the right time, and it’s like the whole act is complete, and sometimes it’s more fragmented.

它适时地得出了一个笑点的结论，整个表演就像是完整的，但有时却更加支离破碎。

But I can tell when the audience is engaged because everyone’s silent, except maybe when they’re laughing.

但我可以看出观众什么时候很投入，因为每个人都保持沉默，除了他们大笑的时候。

There’s a sense that you’re arguing with yourself when you’re lecturing.

当你讲课的时候，有一种你在和自己争论的感觉。

2:17:47 It’s beautiful.

很美丽。

It’s really beautiful and powerful to watch.

观看起来确实非常美丽和强大。

Nietzsche does the same.

尼采也是这样做的。

There’s contradictions in what you’re saying.

你说的有矛盾。

There’s a struggle, what you’re saying.

你所说的，有一场斗争。

But I do think that when you’re doing the same on the internet, you get punished for the deviations.

但我确实认为，当你在互联网上做同样的事情时，你会因为偏差而受到惩罚。

You get punished for the exploration, especially when that explores outside the Overton Window.

你会因为探索而受到惩罚，尤其是在奥弗顿窗外探索时。

Look, if you’re going to play hard in a conversation to explore, you’re going to say things that are edgy, that are going to cause trouble, and they might be wrong.

听着，如果你要在对话中努力探索，你就会说一些尖锐的话，会引起麻烦，而且它们可能是错的。

2:18:08 And that’s another reason why free speech protection is so important.

这就是言论自由保护如此重要的另一个原因。

You actually have to protect the right, let’s say, in the optimal circumstance, you have to protect the right of well-meaning people to be wrong.

你实际上要保护权利，比如说，在最佳情况下，你要保护好心人犯错的权利。

Now, you probably have to go beyond that to truly protect it, you have to even protect the right of people who aren’t meaning well to be wrong.

现在，你可能必须超越这一点才能真正保护它，你甚至必须保护那些无意犯错的人的权利。

And we also need that because we’re not always well-meaning.

我们也需要这一点，因为我们并不总是善意的。

The alternative to that protection would be the insistence that people only say what was 100% right all the time.

这种保护的替代方案是坚持人们始终只说 100%正确的话。

I’m also, I guess this is a call to our fellow humans not to reduce a person to a particular statement, which is what the internet tends to want to do.

我也，我想这是对我们人类同胞的呼吁，不要将一个人简化为某种特定的陈述，而这正是互联网想要做的。

Especially if it’s the worst thing they ever said.

尤其是如果这是他们说过的最糟糕的话。

Yeah.

是的。

2:19:03 Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

2:19:04 Because God…

因为神……

Well, anyone judged by that standard is doomed unless they’re silent.

好吧，任何以这个标准来评判的人都注定要失败，除非他们保持沉默。

But it also just makes you not want to play.

但这也只会让你不想玩。

Yeah, right?

是啊，对吧？

Not want to take radical thought experiments and carry out to the natural that conclusion.

不想进行激进的思想实验并自然地得出该结论。

Well, that’s kind of the definition of a totalitarian state.

嗯，这就是极权国家的定义。

Yes.

是的。

No one’s playing in a totalitarian state, ever.

从来没有人在极权国家中踢球。

But in this case, it’s an emergent one-

但在这种情况下，这是一个紧急情况——

Yeah.

是的。

…

……

2:19:24 with psychopaths roaming the landscape, the barbarians.

到处都是精神病患者和野蛮人。

That might be the general pattern of totalitarianism.

这或许就是极权主义的普遍模式。

Well, in totalitarianism, there’s usually one psychopath, not multiple.

好吧，在极权主义中，通常只有一个精神病患者，而不是多个。

Yeah.

是的。

2:19:36 Well, everyone else is complicit, at least in their silence.

好吧，其他人都是同谋，至少在他们沉默的时候是这样。

Yeah.

是的。

2:19:40 Does the study of the pathology of psychopaths online wear on you?

网上对精神病患者病理学的研究会让你感到厌烦吗？

Yes, definitely.

是的，绝对是。

Do you ever consider doing less of that?

你有没有考虑过少做一些这样的事情？

Yes.

是的。

2:19:50 Yes.

是的。

Definitely.

确实。

Probably I experienced most of that on X, but that’s also where I find most of my guests.

也许我在 X 上经历了大部分的经历，但这也是我找到大多数客人的地方。

That’s also where I get a sense of the zeitgeist, which is necessary.

这也是我感受到时代精神的地方，这是必要的。

For example, if you’re going to be a podcast host, it’s necessary for me to make my lectures on point and up to date to get a sampling of the current moment.

例如，如果你要成为一名播客主持人，我有必要让我的讲座切中要点并保持最新状态，以获取当前时刻的样本。

You have to be of the moment, in many ways, to function at a high level.

在很多方面，你必须活在当下，才能发挥高水平。

There’s a price to be paid for that because you’re exposed to everything in a sense.

为此要付出代价，因为从某种意义上说，你接触到了一切。

You can also over sample the darkness.

您还可以对黑暗进行过度采样。

Yeah.

是的。

2:20:39 Yeah, definitely.

是的，绝对是。

And it can make you more and more cynical.

它会让你变得越来越愤世嫉俗。

2:20:40 It’s a danger, right?

这是一个危险，对吧？

Yeah.

是的。

2:20:43 Yeah.

是的。

Well, luckily for me, I have many things that counterbalance that, the familial relationships we talked about, the friendships, and then also all of the public things I do are positive.

好吧，对我来说幸运的是，我有很多事情可以抵消这一点，我们谈论的家庭关系，友谊，以及我所做的所有公共事务都是积极的。

The lecture tours, for example, which I’m on a lot, they’re basically 100% positive, so I’m very well buttressed against that-

例如，我经常参加的巡回讲座，它们基本上是 100% 积极的，所以我非常反对这一点——

That’s great to hear.

很高兴听到这个消息。

…

……

2:21:09 darker element.

较暗的元素。

As a fan in the arena, watching the gladiators fight, your mind is too important to be lost to the cynical, to the battles with the abyss.

作为竞技场上的粉丝，观看角斗士的战斗，你的思想太重要了，不能迷失在愤世嫉俗和与深渊的战斗中。

You have a moral obligation too, to maintain a positive orientation.

你也有道德义务，保持积极的态度。

2:21:22 It’s a moral obligation.

这是一种道德义务。

The future is, of course, rife with contradictory possibilities, and I suppose in some ways, the more rapid the rate of transformation, the more possibility for good and for evil is making itself manifest at any moment.

当然，未来充满了矛盾的可能性，我认为在某些方面，转变的速度越快，善恶的可能性就越大，随时都会显现出来。

But it looks like the best way to ensure that the future is everything we wish it would be is to maintain faith that that is the direction that will prevail.

但确保未来如我们所愿的最好方法似乎是保持信念，即这将是主流方向。

And I think that’s a form of moral commitment, when it’s not just naive optimism.

我认为这是一种道德承诺，而不仅仅是天真的乐观。

Well, Jordan, thank you for being courageous and being the light amid the darkness for many, many people.

好吧，乔丹，谢谢你的勇气，感谢你成为许多人黑暗中的光明。

2:22:00 And thank you for once again talking today.

感谢您今天再次发言。

Thanks very much for the invitation and for the conversation.

非常感谢您的邀请和谈话。

2:22:10 It’s always a pleasure to see you.

见到你总是很高兴。

You’re doing a pretty decent job yourself about there, illuminating dark corners and bringing people upward.

你自己在这方面做得相当不错，照亮了黑暗的角落，让人们向上。

You’ve got a remarkable thing going with your podcast, and you’re very good at it.

你的播客非常出色，而且你非常擅长。

Thank you, Jordan.

谢谢你，乔丹。

2:22:29 Thanks for listening to this conversation with Jordan Peterson.

感谢您收听与乔丹·彼得森的对话。

To support this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description.

为了支持这个播客，请在描述中查看我们的赞助商。

And now let me leave you some words from Friedrich Nietzsche.

现在让我给你们讲一些弗里德里希·尼采的话。

“I would like to learn more to see as beautiful, that which is necessary in things.

“我想更多地了解事物中所必需的美丽。

Then I shall be one of those who make things beautiful.” Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.

那么我就会成为那些让事物变得美丽的人之一。”感谢您的收听，希望下次再见。